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Maybe someone can guide me towards the right direction... 03:16:20 Suppose you wanted to make a little game of life. Given you need to store lots of data about 'entities', say, about 7 billion entities. All entities belong to some entity(-class) and has members of its own. What data structure should one look into? 03:18:19 -!- ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:19:14 -!- luz [n=davids@189.122.121.232] has quit ["Client exiting"] 03:19:49 csmrFX: A database table (properly indexed, probably partitioned and so on...)? 03:20:32 So the logic would be writen in sql? 03:20:50 yeah, that was something I thoght about 03:21:05 csmrFX: I am not sure why you need a structure like that for the Game of Life, but if I understand you correctly, you're talking about a directed graph. 03:21:52 ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has joined #scheme 03:22:00 multidimensional game of life that you can manipulate in real time... 03:22:20 ...how multidimensional 03:22:34 csmrFX: Well, alright, so, what is important about this structure? What features do you need? Why did you decide to go for a directred graph to represent it? What exactly are these entities? 03:22:59 csmrFX: when I implement a simple Game of Life, it's usually with matrices. 03:23:44 something like universe contains world-entities that contains entities that contain entities that each can, given suitable event step 'up' in the entity level (up towards 'world' level) 03:24:14 :-? 03:24:24 csmrFX: That is up to you and depends on how you're going to work with entities. Maybe you'll have to update these billions of entities at once with one query. Or maybe you'll load just a couple of entities in your client app. 03:24:59 I didnt decide to go for a directed graph yet. I dont even understand the problem 100% yet. 03:25:00 Im just prematurely optimiizing to learn about data structure candidates 03:25:16 -!- JKGpp [n=juergen@dslb-088-067-187-244.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 03:25:23 csmrFX: That doesn't sound like any Game of Life I've ever implemented, but maybe I missed something. 03:25:25 I would use a list, csmrFX. 03:25:57 If you need to handle Directed Graphs, what structure you use really depends on how you intend to use those graphs. 03:27:00 Yeah the 'data' flows from bottom-to-top. Ie. members state effects the 'container entity' state 03:27:00 arcdfide this aint your daddys 1 bit gol 03:28:40 Hm. Actually each entity can contribute to, prevent or enable to 'flow' (int) from members towards containers 03:29:05 -!- Poeir [n=Poeir@c-98-222-133-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:29:59 So every entity also has a class and can be promoted? 03:30:17 So you have a set of entities for each class? 03:30:39 Can entities ever be demoted? 03:30:39 Hm, class is bit ambiguious but yeah 'entity-class' 03:30:59 Suppose its like a army regiment 03:31:20 Is there a root? 03:31:46 Is it restricted enough to make it a tree? 03:31:59 Oh, and when an entity is promoted, what happens to its children? 03:32:26 unit has just couple of entities. and a leader. once leader fulfills certain criteria, (s)he might be promoted to run the company. and so on, until the leader is running the whole regiment. 03:32:57 arcfide if leader is promoted its children select a new leader with best criteria, btw 03:33:30 So for a promotion, it means that you need to touch each child and you also need to change the children of the promoted entity. 03:33:46 I'm thinking this as a tree like structure, but maybe something else would be better, programming wise 03:35:07 arcfide and also need to calc new values for the entity containing the unit and promoted leader, and the one containing that and so on. Leader might even be promoted to highest level right away if it beats the competition... 03:35:59 I wonder what the best strategy is for keeping up with an RSS feed. 03:36:17 Reload it every interval, and scan for new entries at the top. 03:36:31 But then how to store those new entries? Just in a database table I guess. 03:36:52 its pseudo xml, right? 03:36:54 Marked as unread? 03:37:13 csmrFX: I'd have to see more details to give you a really good recommendation, but it could be that a nested list structure would work out alright, but I doubt it. Anyways, I don't have the inclination to do so at the moment. 03:37:16 It's proper xml actually. ATOM/1.0 to be specific. 03:37:44 I can parse it just fine, just not sure how to organize the data for efficient retrieval and processing. 03:37:59 arcfide anyway, you see why I dediced to go around asking. Given millions of entities it may get 'busy' pretty soon with any structure that has any extra overhead 03:38:44 SQL databases and queues really don't get along that well. 03:38:52 csmrFX: Millions of entities isn't so bad, you just need to make sure that you touch only what you have to when you make these updates. 03:39:23 You could probably do this with some TABLE abstraction. 03:39:59 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has left #scheme 03:40:05 Suppose tree-like organization. Every time leaf changes, every leaf and branch to root would need to be updated 03:40:14 I don't know exactly what you are doing, so it's hard to say, but if you are doing lot's of random access mutation, then matrices or a set of vectors might work. 03:40:31 csmrFX: What about the other direction? 03:40:39 Its kind of simulation 03:40:48 social networks 03:40:49 What I am wondering is whether a leaf can move to another section of the tree. 03:41:17 like modeling how political or economical influence travels from individual to local to regional to global level 03:41:17 And you don't seem to be talking about direct ascension, but more like class promotion. 03:42:00 But you're talking about actual nodes moving, and not just properties, right? 03:42:21 If an individual moves from one locale to another... 03:42:29 Individuals will always be individuals, even though a particular aspect or property of said individual may manifest itself similarly at a local or regional level. 03:42:41 well, leaf / entity could be promoted 'up' the chain, but moving 'random access' would be a special case imo 03:43:12 a rifleman wouldnt suddenly become the cook, to use the regiment analogy 03:43:46 but might be promoted to General eventually 03:44:10 and that makes me note - demoted if a better General comes along 03:44:28 Isn't this the kind of task scheme would be ideal for? 03:44:42 You're saying that moving horizontally might not happen, but moving horizontally and vertically might happen. 03:44:51 I would use ruby but need something that can be super fast eventually (chicken) 03:45:13 So are you mapping military rankings, or economic regionalities? 03:45:16 csmrFX: What makes you think Scheme wouldn't be good for this? 03:45:39 You need to get your problem description ironed out so that all the properties are known and your access patterns are known and understood clearly. 03:45:42 arcfide I thought I was saying horizontal would be special case, vertical mostly 03:45:55 synx both, hopefully 03:45:59 soon 03:46:03 I'd be puzzled how you'd do this in ruby even. 03:46:04 So it is some kind of hierarchy of power. 03:46:06 csmrFX: But moving vertically doesn't just mean replacing a parent, it means a random move to somewhere else in the tree at a higher level. 03:46:08 That's important. 03:46:09 But they're different things entirely... 03:46:23 An individual can't be promoted to become a town. 03:47:02 synx hierarchy of interaction... and I suppose flow (of resources, or energy, materials, workforce, just abstraction) 03:47:31 Why is it a hierarchy? 03:47:35 Not all interaction happens hierarchically either. 03:48:00 world belongs to universe? 03:48:08 So far you've narrowed your problem down to "some kind of networking analysis" 03:48:42 What is it, exactly, that you want your program to do? 03:49:02 No offense I mean. Just need that information before anything can get programmed. 03:49:08 Yeah 03:49:12 :D 03:49:18 too fast 03:50:30 It is a hierarchy of geographical metaphors. world thats how I approach the question of how to model flow of voting decisions or money 03:51:46 generally, the finest grain here is individual, literally. 03:53:07 but they belong to some groups and each group has a 'leader', the individual that has most effect on whatever is being modeled (suppose voting-decisions). 03:53:37 And groups belong to other groups (ie. have effect). 03:55:39 Leaders are there to model how outside manipulation would effect the flow/outcome 03:56:16 And well, empowerment. 03:56:23 Whachamacallit. 03:57:12 What exactly, at the end, do you want to model. What is the most salient, important feature of this whole thing? 03:57:27 I'm still not sure what you are trying to model. 03:57:37 jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:57:54 I guess comparing how the entity groupings effect outcome. 03:58:17 What is outcome? 03:58:21 Think Civilisation 03:58:35 That isn't something clear and defined. 03:59:55 Are you trying to simulate society? 03:59:58 outcome - some kind of numerical score for, say, 'group a ended up having more votes than group b' when the regional leader was given more resources. 04:00:04 You want to know what effect an individual's spending choices have on the larger global economy, I guess. 04:00:40 Simulating society is no easy task. 04:00:49 I doubt any *real* info could even be gleaned from a mathematical model. But I am curious. 04:01:32 algorithmic model, programmaical, or whatever it would be. 04:01:57 The closest I've seen it being done was in a little game called "The Sims" 04:01:58 I mean, you all know Game Of Life... 04:02:01 And you asked for one structure? 04:02:02 LOL 04:02:10 see above 04:02:19 They threw out all the complicated stuff, and simulated society via simple stimulus/response games. 04:02:20 ;) 04:02:25 Okay, this isn't a hierarchy, and this isn't a graph. 04:02:32 dmoerner [n=dmr@ppp-71-139-37-78.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 04:02:45 This is a huge net of differing concepts interconnected and treated in different manners for each piece. 04:02:55 GOL is not exactly the finest model for genetic survivability reproduction whatever, but its still a model. 04:03:09 As I recall it doesn't have many cascading effects though. If one person's house catches on fire because you told them to sleep in the fireplace, it generally doesn't make other houses go down in property value or something. 04:03:49 You mean Conway's Game of Life, or the board game? 04:03:59 arcfide I was thinking maube first not interconnected. Just entity members 'promoting' and affecting the groups and super-groups they belong to. 04:04:19 You may need to have classes and sets of people associated with properties, and you may have to have individuals associated with groups, but you might also have to model migration differently and using a different structure than properties, voting patterns, and influence. 04:04:31 I am not exactly Alan Turing yanno 04:05:24 Before you even begin to think about the literal Scheme structures you're going to use, try to map out the abstractions. 04:05:26 you had me fooled. 04:05:27 Turing didn't make a model of society either, that I know of... 04:05:27 I was thinking bot individuals and the organizations could be abstracted to entities, with maybe 2-3 subclasses for limiting what they can and cant do. 04:05:31 Probably in a lot more detail. 04:05:39 offbyl :D 04:08:09 I was hoping no more detail. Entities, that can contain other entities. 'Best entity' by some properties (simple int) becomes the leader. Leader can be promoted. Entity properties can be manipulated and the effect up the chain can be perceived. Thats it. 04:08:35 KISS 04:09:40 Turing made a model of state machine logic. I am gonna stand on his shoulders soon... 04:10:50 I know there are lots of ways you could model any sort of economy... 04:10:55 (define (make-bank) (lambda (client amount) (if (crony? client) (begin (when (benevolent? client) (set-crony! client #f)) (create-money amount)) (let ((labor (client-slaved client))) (if (> labor amount) (create-money amount) (call-police))))) 04:12:04 Yeah, suppose youi wanted a simple model for how money is made and controled in a simplified society... 04:12:24 If only it was simplifiable. 04:13:13 nah, it doesnt have to be accurate. what matters is ya wanted one and made it. JFF 04:13:43 You can pick any number of models for how money is made. Which one is reality, is actually a debatable uncertainty. 04:14:08 for north americans,that is. 04:14:54 I guess I better figure out what directed graphs are, now. Or? 04:15:37 On another note, I was thinking this is bit like a 3D gfx Scene Graph, no? 04:15:47 They're graphs with one way paths. But yeah, directed graphs are a semester's worth of a university course. 04:16:19 No biggie 04:16:24 I've never used Scene Graph before. 04:17:22 Its sort of a tree like structure for figuring out whats visible and rendered. AKA Binary Space Trees (well, the 'older' ones anyway) 04:18:40 Hm, ok. No, this isn't going to be a directed graph, at least not first. I had something *severely* more restricting in mind. 04:20:58 btw http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scene_graph 04:28:04 wy [n=wy@c-24-16-38-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:41:19 -!- reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw261071.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:41:48 reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw261071.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 04:49:54 dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-86-109.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 04:56:14 -!- reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw261071.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:02:40 pants2 [n=hkarau@76-10-131-131.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 05:04:29 GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-246-196.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:04:29 pants3 [n=hkarau@75-119-235-235.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 05:06:47 pants4 [n=hkarau@69-196-128-84.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 05:09:20 pants5 [n=hkarau@69-196-191-3.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 05:10:03 brandelune_ [n=suzume@pl241.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 05:18:30 So, does some scheme implementation provide concurrency? 05:19:25 sure 05:19:38 -!- pants1 [n=hkarau@206-248-156-5.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:19:41 -!- pants2 [n=hkarau@76-10-131-131.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:19:50 rudybot: eval (thread (lambda () (let loop () (display "yar") (loop)))) 05:19:53 *offby1: your sandbox is ready 05:19:53 *offby1: ; Value: # 05:19:55 *offby1: ; stdout: "yaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryaryary 05:20:10 rudybot: eval "I'm fine" 05:20:10 *offby1: ; Value: "I'm fine" 05:20:15 *offby1: error: evaluator: terminated (out-of-memory) 05:20:45 rudybot: eval "I'm still fine, really" 05:20:47 *offby1: your sandbox is ready 05:20:47 *offby1: ; Value: "I'm still fine, really" 05:20:58 -!- pants3 [n=hkarau@75-119-235-235.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:23:17 -!- GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-246-196.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:23:49 -!- pants4 [n=hkarau@69-196-128-84.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:24:51 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl357.nas934.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:25:22 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit ["Off!"] 05:26:56 hnnh 05:27:18 Judofyr [n=Judofyr@c349BBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has joined #scheme 05:27:32 offby1 which on e would that be? 05:38:56 mmmm 05:39:05 how would you approach this problem in Scheme? 05:39:07 http://projecteuler.net/index.php?section=problems&id=11 05:39:18 i thought of a simple solution 05:39:28 but i would need two-dimension vectors 05:39:45 wich my procedural mind can't map into Scheme 05:40:21 (involves multiplying each number, vertically, horizontally and two of the four diagonals) 05:41:05 And hmm, matrix math? 05:44:17 the problem is how to represent the data in Scheme 05:44:18 cel: A nested loop over a matrix is pretty simple 05:44:30 i mean, i can't use anything besides R5RS... 05:44:34 (Petite Chez) 05:44:38 Hehehe..... 05:44:47 Indiana? 05:44:58 no, just learning on my own a bit :) 05:45:12 i thought of using something like... 05:45:20 '( (first row) 05:45:25 (second row)) 05:45:27 etc... 05:45:34 cel: Abstract a 4-d matrix representation out of a single dimensional vector; then do a nested loop. 05:45:35 then cdr it recursively 05:45:58 arcfide ¿with offsets based on row length? 05:46:24 (sorry if that question was stupid, i did not read much on matrices) 05:46:38 Hm, this piques my interest 05:47:12 the funny thing... is the list representation for rows works ok 05:47:20 for vertical and horizontal multiplications 05:47:26 but gets a lot messy for diagonals 05:47:28 cel: You can use any matrix representation you want, actually, but I like one-dimensional vectors if I am doing something like this. 05:47:51 oh, good 05:47:53 :) 05:48:52 maybe a could try with the two-dimensional vector too just for fun 05:49:04 #( #(first row) #(second row) ...) 05:49:28 and then (vector-ref (vector-ref... x_pos) y_pos)) 05:49:36 I would use foof loop for this, but if you just want R5RS, you'll have to build things up. 05:50:12 (now i regret i didn't start all the problems using something like PLT or Chicken) 05:50:14 :\ 05:51:35 hm, is there a command line interpreter for drscheme? 05:51:44 like one that can run in a terminal... 05:51:48 mzscheme 05:52:34 yay 05:52:42 cel: There's nothing wrong with Petite Chez for this. 05:53:08 cel: There are some libraries that I have written for Chez Scheme that you could use if you are just learning this on your own. 05:53:17 Sorry, I should say, Ported. 05:53:37 You don't need much for this problem though. 05:53:51 that would be nice, but i think it defeats a bit the purpose of doing it yourself with the tools given 05:54:01 hm, mzscheme seems to hate my arrow keys. I hate it when I cant first type () and then go back in between... 05:54:02 i mean, thanks a lot for the offer 05:54:02 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-177.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 05:54:10 samlt [n=sam@17.218.193-77.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #scheme 05:54:22 cel: They are available publically. 05:54:44 ah, nice 05:55:07 then maybe they would also be handy for next problems 05:55:24 Yeah. Of course, they are just standard things like SRFIs and the libraries that most Schemers use. 05:55:32 Or I should say, I use. ;-) 05:55:40 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 05:55:52 great, i miss some SRFI-1 things and the like :) 05:55:59 cel: You'll find a lot of stuff there to use, which may make your life easier if you are just learning and don't want to mess with porting things yourself. 05:56:37 cel: Yeah, SRFIs 1, 8, 13, 14, 23, 42, 45, 78, and...I think that's all the SRFIs there right now. 05:57:13 unfortunately... i'm one of those developers with a bit of ego that likes to reinvent the wheel himself to be able to say "i did everything needed to solve it on my own", but i accept here, is nice to have standard libraries :P 05:57:23 foof looping, sockets, regular expressions, streams, and trees. 05:57:25 -!- csmrFX [n=pikseli@cs181151213.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:57:36 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #scheme 05:57:49 and probably it will also be nice learning to use them for other future problems or projects in scheme 05:58:04 cel: Well, at least you have something to base your own code on. :-) 05:58:22 csmrFX [n=pikseli@cs181151213.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 05:58:26 thanks a lot, so nice from you :) 05:59:27 cel: will get you there. 05:59:31 Or use CVS. 05:59:47 csmrFX: Use M-x run-scheme from within Emacs, or rlwrap on the command-line. 06:00:10 Or, since you're using PLT, DrScheme does understand the arrow keys ;) 06:00:27 cel: I haven't included all the goodies from CVS yet, since I'm not quite finished with some libraries. 06:01:08 DrScheme does understand the arrow keys, just cant get mzscheme to digest em 06:01:14 i'll better get then the cvs version 06:02:06 cel: CVSROOT=anoncvs@anoncvs.sacrideo.us:/cvs and the module is 'lib'. Use ssh instead of rsh. 06:02:28 mmm, i use tortoiseCVS 06:02:45 cel: That will work, just use ssh as the get method rather than rsh. 06:02:58 cel: I use TortoiseCVS on Windows. 06:03:09 But usually I'm on UNIX boxes. 06:03:37 Most of the CVS additions have to do with RDF and Web Programming. 06:03:47 Oh, and a testing suite. 06:04:01 i would like to be on unix (archlinux really...) but my wireless card refuses to work with the latest kernel, so i'm on windows while the fix gets on it 06:04:13 and tortoiseCVS is usefull and easy 06:04:14 Hehe, what card? 06:04:15 :) 06:04:20 realtek 2500 06:04:38 but the kernel confuses it and loads the rt2x00 driver 06:04:52 wich fails to work, often panics 06:04:56 Hehe. 06:05:59 not really that much of a problem, there is vim, there is scheme, svn access... 06:06:00 hm, why on earth mzscheme is the only app that doesn't understand my arrow keys. Is mzscheme still in beta or something? 06:06:09 LOL 06:06:13 No. 06:06:14 csmrFX: it does here 06:06:15 Well, maybe. 06:06:21 csmrFX: That's _intentional_. 06:06:36 If you want a convenient interface, they provide DrScheme. 06:06:46 Oh. Ok. Too bad I cant find any info on it in the guugle 06:06:58 I want the best possible interface, hence, terminal. 06:07:01 uhmmm, arrow keys work in mzscheme here 06:07:06 rlwrap also exists. 06:07:23 rlwrap will execute each row separately, right? 06:07:48 -!- wy [n=wy@c-24-16-38-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:07:55 I don't remember, I didn't have any problem using it with Chez Scheme before Chez Scheme embedded its own line editing. 06:08:09 no, rlwrap just feeds a row at a time to mzscheme, and mzscheme will wait for a whole sexp before evaluating it 06:09:31 The point being, that for people who don't want to use DrScheme, some want to use Emacs and some want to use rlwrap, and some just want to pipe s-expressions to mzscheme, so not including readline by default is a feature, not a bug. 06:09:48 (readline also ties you to the GPL) 06:10:37 csmrFX: http://docs.plt-scheme.org/readline/index.html#(def._((lib._readline/main..ss)._install-readline!)) 06:10:48 csmrFX: That will install readline support for the temrinal. 06:10:55 mmc [n=mima@esprx02x.nokia.com] has joined #scheme 06:11:00 Well, rlwrap seems to work ok. Thanks 06:11:03 csmrFX: And the reason mzscheme doesn't do that by default is that it can't. 06:11:26 It cant do what? 06:11:53 csmrFX: It cannot use readline by default because of the licensing issue that foof mentioned. readline is GPL, and PLT is LGPL. 06:11:58 reprore [n=reprore@s209-127.pubnet.titech.ac.jp] has joined #scheme 06:12:28 -!- reprore [n=reprore@s209-127.pubnet.titech.ac.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:12:32 arcfide i checked out the cvs, thanks for the libraries it seems there are a lot of things there :) 06:12:35 It also shouldn't because then you wouldn't be able to use it from Emacs. 06:13:02 Ok. But. It does contain interative mode. I wonder why the arrow keys wont work in it. 06:13:06 cel: I try. :-) 06:13:07 Well, it could test the input port etc, but it's irrelevant anyway. 06:13:22 csmrFX: What's "interactive mode"? 06:13:39 type 'mzscheme' in the terminal and see 06:13:42 cel: Please send me bug reports and the like. It's still BETA, but unless I wrote the libraries, there shouldn't be many bugs. 06:13:48 foof: BTW, it's fine to ship with readline, just not use it by default. 06:13:57 -!- dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-86-109.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:14:07 -!- samlt [n=sam@17.218.193-77.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:14:16 I'm trying to add more and more documentation as I go, but it takes time. 06:14:16 arcfide i'll try, but you know... i still think is MY error if something does not work :P 06:14:17 eli: That's bizarre, but then the finer points of the GPL have always been so :/ 06:14:24 If you have questions about using a library, let me know. 06:14:51 csmrFX: In all applications you get the same deal -- either readline (or a similar library) or not. MzScheme is far from being an exception. 06:14:57 *foof* still can't remember whether using flex/bison contaminates your app 06:15:03 foof: Yes, "bizzare" is an understatement. 06:15:46 cel: for this kind of work, I highly recommend you check out foof loop, which is a very nice looping library that is easy to use and has a nested form with things like COLLECT-MAXIMUM and COLLECT-PRODUCT for just these types of problems. 06:15:57 We didn't include it for a long time, until I spent about half a day reading stuff and seeing that this (including rl but not using it by default) was done in several other places, and found some RMS quotes that imply that it's fine. 06:15:58 The only Scheme I know that includes readline-like behavior by default is Gambit, which implements its own readline library. 06:16:01 eli For me, mzscheme is the only exception - it does not understand arrow keys. 06:16:23 foof: Chez does too, with its own implementation. 06:16:34 csmrFX: What other command line programs do that? 06:16:46 Running 'mzscheme -il readline' or simply 'rlwrap mzscheme' works fine, tho. 06:16:51 mmmm, i got one question 06:16:56 (BTW, doing a private implementation is not hard -- if you assume something like xterm only.) 06:17:15 i did load srfi-1.ss (and the required: check-arg.ss srfi-8.ss let-opt.ss") 06:17:17 Well, vt100-only. 06:17:18 csmrFX: What other command line programs do that? 06:17:30 then tried (take ...) 06:17:38 vt100 would be a little more restrictive, IIRC. 06:17:39 Do what, specifically? Dont understand arrow keys? 06:17:44 am i missing something to be able to use it? 06:17:46 cel: And it didn't work, did it. :-) ? 06:17:51 nope 06:18:01 But in any case, terminals is one pile of mess I'm happy to stay out of. 06:18:03 cel: Every file there is distributed as a module or wrapped in one. 06:18:11 cel: When you load them, they make the modules available, but don't import them. 06:18:17 ahhh 06:18:23 csmrFX: What other command-line tools "know about arrow keys". 06:18:30 You should load them all, and then do (IMPORT srfi-1). 06:18:34 csmrFX: You said "For me, mzscheme is the only exception - it does not understand arrow keys." 06:18:39 Well, for testing code my usual is irb 06:18:44 jobf [n=jbf@c80-216-238-151.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 06:19:05 arcfide right! now it works without problem 06:19:10 Point being the question was ambiguous 06:19:35 is there something like a load-them-all.ss ? :P 06:19:37 csmrFX: Ruby is GPLed. Next? 06:19:44 cel: Enjoy. :-) The module with their names and exports are always near the top of the file. 06:20:03 cel: With some libraries, I moved the default names of th eprocedures to other names when they conflicted with Chez defaults, if I felt like it. 06:20:06 Yes, and irb is a special wrapper around the ruby. 06:20:10 eli python 06:20:12 cel: other times, I didn't. 06:20:41 arcfide no problem, i'll read at the source of the library to check if it does seem something that does not exists should 06:20:50 csmrFX: "However, the Python license is compatible with the GPL, according to the Free Software Foundation." 06:20:55 I already grokeded teh GPL thing, thanks. 06:21:02 cel: There is no load-them-all.ss yet, as there are a lot, and some of them are special, but I make my own load-all.ss whenever I make a new project, with only the libs I want. 06:21:14 one question though, why didn't you redefine srfi-1/iota ? 06:21:32 cel: Because Chez already provides it. 06:21:33 ah, ok, i'll do the same, loading just what i need on each problem 06:21:34 My point is, either it works, or it doesnt. If latter, I am confused, unless instructed. 06:21:43 arcfide yeah, but the one Chez provides is a bit crippled 06:21:47 only accepts one argument 06:21:58 csmrFX: Well, looking for an LGPL application that uses readline by default would be good to find, which is why I asked. 06:22:25 I just spent ½ hour talking about rlwrap and GPL licenscing instead of coding *scheme*. How can you justify that. Its 2009. Its no longer 1970. 06:22:37 Now, I play... 06:23:02 csmrFX: I spent half a day looking at that crap, and believe me when I say "I'd rather be hacking". 06:24:39 cel: It's exported now. :-) 06:25:00 cel: As SRFI-1-IOTA. 06:25:06 Actually, I remember being very surprised that ruby didn't handle readline by default. I think it's really mostly in the Lisp-world, where so many people use Emacs, that readline is uncommon. 06:25:52 What surprised me was that readline is still more popular than editline. 06:26:36 arcfide :D 06:29:10 Ruby? Oh, no. I spent this night coding ruby :( 06:29:38 Poor Mr-Cat :( 06:31:50 which version? 06:31:59 1.8 06:32:07 irb made descent into ruby very easy ime. 06:32:59 Yeah, but it's a separate Debian package and doesn't contain "ruby" in its name, so it was a while before I even learned of its existence. 06:33:23 Mr-Cat you must have been surprised theres some language you actually need to type less than with scheme 06:36:38 wy [n=wy@c-24-16-38-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:37:18 csmrFX: Scheme isn't especially terse. 06:37:24 csmrFX: Well, I've never tried to compare scheme with ruby (and my knowledge of the latter is quite poor), but seems, that when it comes to writing short programs, both have pros and cons. 06:38:12 I'll take easy to read, concise, and clear over terse, even in exchange for more Lines. 06:38:40 ASau [n=user@host9-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #scheme 06:39:03 Is there something for scheme that would enable tab-completion? I have to look eeeeverything up and its slow. 06:39:15 Maybe for vim? 06:40:06 vim does tab completion on scheme 06:40:06 csmrFX: For NEdit I have a set of calltips that I use, for vi, I don't bother. Chez Scheme has tab completion on built-ins, and I don't know what is out there for Emacs anymore. 06:40:16 ctrl + p 06:40:25 For Emacs there's scheme-complete.el, which does context-sensitive type inferencing-based tab completion. 06:40:37 (but it is not context-sensitive) 06:40:48 -!- Mr-Cat [n=Mr-Cat@93-81-191-176.broadband.corbina.ru] has left #scheme 06:40:58 Fewer keystrokes than any other Scheme tab-completion guaranteed, or your money back! 06:41:49 (i would use Emacs if my brain weren't so tied to vim shortcuts that i can't change now, just to use slime) 06:43:44 cel maybe you installed something to enable tab completion? 06:43:59 csmrFX : no, it does it by default 06:44:06 just ctrl + p in insert mode 06:44:12 Oh you mean it wont show scheme specific completions? 06:44:38 csmrFX: Are you in compatible mode? 06:44:54 lol whats compatible mode? 06:45:04 csmrFX: The readline mode in mzscheme *does* have completions. 06:45:12 huh? 06:45:21 oh, it will complete based on what words there are on current file 06:45:34 -!- raikov [i=cbb5f30b@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-f5496e857636913f] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 06:45:38 (but you can customize it with your own dictionary, adding all R5RS words) 06:45:56 -!- wy [n=wy@c-24-16-38-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:46:01 cel yeah. I could just find shcme keyword list. Do you hav schem abbreviations? 06:46:03 csmrFX: If Vim doesn't have a startup file, by default it starts up in compatible mode, and I don't think it enables Scheme mode in that case. If you aren't in Scheme mode, the completions probably won't happen. 06:46:16 arcfide i've tried the foof loop thing, it's quite nice 06:46:18 csmrFX: You asked about tab completion; and I said that using the readline interface does give you that. 06:46:38 arcfide ok, so tahts what its called. 06:46:56 eli yeah, in fact it does! 06:47:06 cel: I'm glad you like it, don't forget to see what's in it with the docs. 06:47:26 csmrFX: I know. I'm know who wrote the code. 06:47:42 That and keyword list for vim will do fine. Where can I find R5RS keywords list= 06:47:54 s/=/? 06:47:57 it remembers me the lisp loop construct 06:48:52 cel: It's extensible, too, and you can see an example where I extend it in foof-loop.ss to loop over fixnum vectors in Chez. 06:49:10 cel: I've also got an RDF List iterator for it. 06:49:20 Its real hard to find stuff for scheem. All I find is vim color schemes. 06:50:01 http://tmp.barzilay.org/x.html has a list of bindings. 06:50:26 csmrFX, you don't really need much to work with scheme in vim 06:50:44 i just use the usual tab completion (with the words that are already on the file) 06:51:01 the set lisp mode, wich gives better indentation for scheme-like languages 06:51:13 and map the F5 key to execute the current buffer on petite chez 06:51:21 cel yeah, I was planning on simply having scheme keyword list that I open manually + supertab 06:51:39 Whats petite chez? 06:51:52 an interpreter, but you could use whatever you like 06:52:05 csmrFX: 06:52:28 Yeah, I like to edit in vim only, and then run in other terminal 06:52:42 This is prolly ok for keywords, right? 06:52:49 oops http://community.schemewiki.org/?scheme-keywords 06:53:14 csmrFX: http://tmp.barzilay.org/x.html 06:53:49 csmrFX i just find more practical to only have vim open 06:53:50 Still valid for mscheme 4.1.3, right? 06:54:07 and then press a key to run the code in the buffer and get the result in vim 06:54:18 csmrFX: It's computed from 4.2, so yes. 06:54:33 but everyone has his own method that works best for him 06:54:48 I am not that good at running stuff from vim and handling all the output buffers and whatnot 06:55:10 Editing, that I know like pro 06:55:34 no need to handle output buffer! 06:56:14 it just runs the code, shows the result in a buffer (wich is stdout for the proccess called) and then you are back to editing 06:56:51 i'm no vim pro though 06:56:51 I remember trying that once and after hours of fiddling it didnt work... 06:57:23 the only thing required is something like... 06:57:40 set makeprg=petite\ --script\ \"%\" 06:57:48 map :make % 06:58:09 then when you press F5 it just runs the code in the current buffer and shows the result 06:58:14 ikaros [n=ikaros@g227070037.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 06:58:22 (but modify petite --script... to match your interpreter) 06:59:35 i use this vim configuration for scheme... it's just simple and works for me, but as i said i'm not a vim pro 06:59:48 maybe you can cut some part of it that you like: http://code.google.com/p/cel-src/source/browse/trunk/Vim/celeste.vim 07:00:22 -!- Judofyr [n=Judofyr@c349BBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:00:51 Judofyr [n=Judofyr@c349BBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has joined #scheme 07:01:08 choas [n=lars@p5B0DD4D4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 07:03:31 hmm... 07:04:26 I like to do a little more incremental development, so I usually copy and paste into my interpreter and maintain some state for experimenting, until I get a file that I can build nicely, and then I wrap it in a module once I am pretty sure only little changes will be needed. 07:05:18 Not to mention I'm currently using a Literate Programming style, so I can't just load the buffer. 07:05:26 yeah, that's also great 07:05:36 it's what i miss more from slime 07:05:52 a shortcut to send code to the interpreter from the current "(" to the enclosing one 07:06:28 the run-everything F5 key is good for this small problems in project euler 07:06:36 but it would suck for bigger projects 07:08:34 cel nice, already stole set mouse=a 07:09:36 good if anything is useful 07:09:52 yeah I use mix of intepreter-pasting, -loading and *TESTS* 07:09:59 -!- brandelune_ [n=suzume@pl241.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [] 07:10:46 whats vim lisp mode anyway? -should I care? 07:11:38 does better indentation than the default 07:12:50 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 07:12:50 try :h lisp 07:16:58 -!- Judofyr [n=Judofyr@c349BBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:19:34 So, is there a simple 1 page quickeref for mzscheme you think is perfect? 07:19:46 mmmm 07:19:49 here is a nice tip... 07:20:11 :set dictionary-=$VIMRUNTIME\syntax\scheme.vim dictionary+=$VIMRUNTIME\syntax\scheme.vim 07:20:18 now in insert mode... 07:20:29 def 07:20:44 and will show define, define-syntax, and friends 07:21:02 (stolen from the syntax coloring file scheme.vim 07:21:53 Ah yes, I was thinking about that but thought simply opening keywords file would be crunkier 07:22:11 having a dedicated dictionary file would be better 07:22:19 the scheme.vim file contains a lot of other junk 07:22:53 Well, such a thing probably exists. 07:25:19 i'll make one from the url eli pasted probablt 07:27:30 kewl 07:28:16 abbreviations would be cool but people have really diff taste as to what should abbreviations be called 07:30:19 cel: I use(d to use) a modified version of "limp" for scheme in vim (but I lost it, and didn't have the opportunity to program in scheme lately) 07:31:41 here it is http://pastebin.ca/raw/1430725 07:32:06 npe [n=npe@91.179.119.31] has joined #scheme 07:32:21 use with.. :set dictionary-=$VIMRUNTIME/thefile dictionary+=$VIMRUNTIME/thefile 07:32:34 then... :set complete-=k complete+=k 07:32:44 (assuming thefile is in Vim directory) 07:32:56 then in insert mode just and it completes 07:33:50 Axioplase never used Limp, but i'll take a look :D 07:34:24 wy [n=wy@c-24-16-38-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 07:35:08 rtra_ [n=user@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #scheme 07:40:21 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B0567D9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 07:41:16 cel how did you clean the html out? 07:42:17 selected all text, copied it to vim 07:42:31 then replaced Y and N with nothing (empty) 07:42:37 yaa 07:42:37 then deleted the first line 07:42:38 :P 07:43:42 cel :%s/\s\+$// 07:43:44 ;) 07:43:47 i'll have to do a different file anyway 07:43:59 because all the words on that one don't match the procedures on Petite Chez 07:44:18 but is good for anyone using mzscheme 07:45:07 Yes, thanks 07:45:17 :) 07:47:21 mike [n=m@dslb-088-064-135-005.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 07:48:04 -!- ikaros [n=ikaros@g227070037.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:48:16 Well, here it is, schmeme keyword list without whitespace http://paste.lisp.org/display/80634 07:48:25 (uh trailing whitespace) 07:48:54 thanks :) 07:50:17 -!- rtra [n=user@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:50:35 -!- kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:50:47 lol schmeme scheme 07:51:58 -!- wy [n=wy@c-24-16-38-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:52:03 what do those #%app etx do? env vars? vim parser doesnt like those, give error. 07:54:08 ah, nm 07:55:02 no idea, never used mzscheme 07:55:15 i suposse you can remove them and use everything else 07:56:26 Something special to mzscheme prolly 07:56:52 Whats the diff between petite chez and mzscheme? 07:57:18 mmmm, it's better to read doc on both but roughly... 07:57:26 mzscheme is open source 07:57:31 has a lot of libraries 07:57:43 works on many systems 07:57:54 and is part of PLT Scheme wich is a family of languages 07:58:06 is quite big 07:58:22 petite chez isn't opensource 07:58:46 is a free interpreter, more like the small son of Chez Scheme 07:58:53 wich is a commercial scheme compiler 07:59:07 has less libraries but it is quite stable 07:59:08 changes less 07:59:16 and works too on many system 07:59:20 is also small 07:59:41 both are good in my opinion 08:00:44 There's no need to do that hacking on the table, it's generated from code. 08:00:51 http://tmp.barzilay.org/x.scm 08:01:44 And `#%app' is a plt thing; http://docs.plt-scheme.org/reference/application.html 08:02:33 wait, you can generate only R5RS names? 08:02:46 (a big "fail" word should be in my tshirt) 08:02:53 Yes. 08:02:58 See the code. 08:03:22 You don't think I sat there slapping Ys and Ns on more than a thousand names, do you? 08:03:52 *eli* mumbles something about 2009 and 1970... 08:10:57 -!- synthase [n=synthase@adsl-220-161-115.mob.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:13:49 :) 08:20:10 -!- xwl_ [n=user@147.243.236.60] has left #scheme 08:28:18 -!- metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-127-85-87.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:29:59 ice_man` [n=user@CPE000d6074b550-CM001a66704e52.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 08:30:13 anyone alive? 08:33:36 -!- ice_man` [n=user@CPE000d6074b550-CM001a66704e52.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:37:52 mike_ [n=m@dslb-088-066-228-085.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 08:38:20 `Antonio` [n=kvirc@92.6.187.78] has joined #scheme 08:39:16 *`Antonio`* good morning 08:39:36 mornin 08:40:53 Ragnaroek [i=54a6570b@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-c04f6e1b29c13d92] has joined #scheme 08:41:17 Does anybody know what might cause this error : 08:41:17 expand: unbound identifier in module (transformer environment) in: string-join 08:41:56 if I type string-join at the prompt, it's OK (#) 08:42:40 totom: What implementation? 08:42:46 mzscheme 4.1.5 08:42:49 with #lang scheme 08:43:17 well, DrScheme in that case, with language module and #lang scheme 08:43:35 -!- geckosenator [n=sean@c-71-237-94-78.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:46:04 -!- mike [n=m@dslb-088-064-135-005.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:47:07 http://pastebin.com/m1a299e04 (i'm trying to make a simpler version of define-structure in http://www.scheme.com/tspl3/syntax.html) 08:49:05 totom: (require (for-syntax ...something...)) 08:49:18 where "something" can be `scheme' or just `scheme/string'. 08:49:33 eli: but string-join at the prompt works already ? 08:49:59 Right, but compilation (where macro code code runs) lives in a different phase. 08:50:30 -!- jobf [n=jbf@c80-216-238-151.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:51:36 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 08:52:26 switched to apply string-append, it works... now I have other unbound identifiers, guess I have to read the docs on require... 08:53:08 Or listen to what I said... 08:54:55 eli that x.scm - where does it get the keywords... that looks nice and evil to me 08:55:09 I did (require (for-syntax scheme)) but that isn't enough 08:55:34 csmrFX: I don't know how to answer that question. You can look up everything used there. 08:55:53 totom: Whatever you want to use, you need to `require' from somewhere. 08:56:07 totom: Whatever you want to use in macros, you need to `(require (from-syntax ...))' from somewhere. 08:56:45 for-syntax you mean ? 08:56:55 Yes, sorry. 08:57:58 samlt [n=sam@17.218.193-77.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #scheme 08:58:11 (require (for-syntax mzscheme)) seems to do the trick 08:58:20 eli it loads bunch of pages, is that where it gets the keywords? 08:58:39 totom: Don't use `mzscheme' -- it's a legacy module. 08:58:50 csmrFX: It gets them from modules. 08:58:57 :/ 08:59:16 have to find out the new functions then 08:59:29 totom: Which functions are you missing? 09:00:11 it's OK, http://www.scheme.com/tspl3/syntax.html refers to datum->syntax-object, but in fact it has been renamed to datum->syntax 09:00:33 totom: You should use the docs. 09:00:41 yes, I've just found out 09:00:42 Run `plt-help'. 09:02:44 I don't have that binary, but the search function of docs.plt-scheme.org rocks 09:04:41 oo, maybe worth a try http://netbeans.dzone.com/news/scheme-editor-netbeans 09:05:23 alaricsp [n=alaricsp@217.205.201.45] has joined #scheme 09:11:33 totom: You do remember me saying that you shouldn't do development work with the mzscheme distro, right? 09:11:42 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 09:11:57 you told me it's OK if I use the mzscheme tgz you provide 09:12:58 No, I said that it's ok for packaging as part of ports -- but the purpose of the mzscheme distro is still the same, mainly for remote web server installations. 09:14:31 ah, by "development work" you mean writing scheme code 09:14:43 yes, I use the drscheme DMG for that. 09:16:10 totom: In that case, that's where you'd find `plt-help' (and get the same with F1 in drscheme). 09:17:23 oh, ok, it's just not in my path (what's in my path is the port-installed mzscheme). thanks 09:17:51 -!- mike_ [n=m@dslb-088-066-228-085.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:18:48 totom: Another thing that you could do is enter (help ) in the mzscheme repl. 09:19:10 But that wouldn't work with the mzscheme distro too -- it just doesn't have the docs. 09:19:26 the website is fine anyway 09:22:24 jn [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 09:24:07 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 09:26:06 sanita [n=sanchy@89.242.89.101] has joined #scheme 09:30:08 mike_ [n=m@dslb-088-064-148-119.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 09:36:39 -!- meanburrito920_ [n=John@76-217-6-100.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["has been attacked by a grue"] 10:00:53 Judofyr [n=Judofyr@c349BBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has joined #scheme 10:05:54 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 10:06:48 elias` [n=me@resnet-pat-254.ucs.ed.ac.uk] has joined #scheme 10:07:26 mziulu [i=52555923@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-272a12eecb834eac] has joined #scheme 10:11:28 -!- choas [n=lars@p5B0DD4D4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 10:14:50 -!- samlt [n=sam@17.218.193-77.rev.gaoland.net] has quit ["leaving"] 10:18:23 -!- mike_ [n=m@dslb-088-064-148-119.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:23:00 So, I have simple list structures that point to ohters in scheme. 10:23:31 How would I visualize the references? Is there svg or other lib for mzscheme? 10:23:52 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 10:27:42 mike [n=m@dslb-088-066-251-182.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 10:30:40 rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-6-39.51-151.net24.it] has joined #scheme 10:31:53 npe_ [n=npe@91.180.55.179] has joined #scheme 10:35:23 -!- csmrFX is now known as cursermire 10:35:37 -!- cursermire is now known as cursormire 10:39:18 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 10:39:31 -!- jn [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 10:40:28 -!- npe [n=npe@91.179.119.31] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:44:49 Mr-Cat [n=Miranda@hermes.lanit.ru] has joined #scheme 10:54:20 -!- chickamade [n=chickama@222.254.12.143] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:04:05 does anybody know how I can assign a value to a symbol generated with string->symbol ? 11:04:34 alists, hash-tables, etc. 11:05:36 so I can't have the equivalent of (define foo 0) given the string "foo" ? 11:07:59 That's a FAQ. There are ways to do it, but it's usually a symptom that you're either thinking about the problem wrong, or that you're trying to write your own interpreter on top of Scheme. 11:09:21 hmmm 11:09:51 not really, I just want to derive some new symbols from an existing symbol's name 11:10:14 Then you probably want a macro. 11:10:18 jobf [n=jbf@c80-216-238-151.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 11:10:45 I'm using a macro 11:11:10 What are you trying to do, exactly? 11:11:19 implement a much much simplified define-struct 11:11:55 say, I want (define-data student) to define to some kind of constructor 11:12:02 (let's say 0 for now) 11:12:32 http://pastebin.com/m170fb4a doesn't seem to work :/ 11:12:35 oops, lunch, bbl 11:18:10 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 11:23:53 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:26:08 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 11:29:52 synthase [n=synthase@adsl-220-161-115.mob.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 11:37:15 -!- npe_ [n=npe@91.180.55.179] has quit [] 11:46:44 -!- Judofyr [n=Judofyr@c349BBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:47:14 Judofyr [n=Judofyr@c349BBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has joined #scheme 11:55:37 (back) 11:58:09 -!- saccade [n=saccade_@COMBINATOR.MIT.EDU] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:02:36 npe [n=npe@91.180.55.179] has joined #scheme 12:04:54 -!- Judofyr [n=Judofyr@c349BBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:04:55 saccade [n=saccade_@COMBINATOR.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 12:05:24 totom: To introduce bindings to a new symbol (which is derived from a macro argument) by a macro you should use syntax->datum and datum->syntax. You may look at the example for syntax-case in r6rs, where a new bindig to `break' is introduced. 12:05:58 I did use syntax->datum 12:06:53 Aha, mised that.what's the problem then? 12:07:11 ah, stop 12:07:22 you forgot about datum->syntax 12:07:55 I thought this one was unnecessary. I'll re-re-read the docs, thanks 12:09:41 Iirc, for syntax-case datum->syntax is the only (at least the most straightforward) way to create a syntax object in syntax-case. 12:13:03 This sort of macro is much simpler with syntactic-closures, btw ;) 12:13:47 yet another form of macro 12:13:59 *totom* is DoSed with different macro forms 12:17:13 jao [n=jao@8.Red-83-33-180.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 12:19:41 got it 12:19:42 thanks 12:19:42 :-) 12:20:33 http://pastebin.com/m41f88678 12:26:22 -!- morphir [n=morphir@217.168.81.9] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:28:50 michaelw [i=michaelw@lambda.foldr.org] has joined #scheme 12:30:22 -!- mike [n=m@dslb-088-066-251-182.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 12:30:30 can anybody with a fast pipe seed some of the SICP lectures (chap. 9ff.)? 12:32:00 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-208-138.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 12:32:33 there is 9ff? 12:35:25 hmm? actually, more specifically I meant Lecture-{7b,9a,9b,10a,10b}.avi 12:36:35 -!- npe [n=npe@91.180.55.179] has quit [] 12:37:10 ikaros [n=ikaros@g227070037.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 12:44:54 -!- Ragnaroek [i=54a6570b@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-c04f6e1b29c13d92] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 12:50:10 *`Antonio`* see you later ! 12:50:24 -!- `Antonio` is now known as `Antonio-work` 12:51:33 -!- sanita [n=sanchy@89.242.89.101] has left #scheme 12:53:29 langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 12:53:43 -!- cursormire [n=pikseli@cs181151213.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:04:07 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-241-175-106.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:06:12 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-241-175-106.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 13:08:39 npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has joined #scheme 13:09:14 xwl [n=user@114.246.82.145] has joined #scheme 13:12:07 sh10151 [n=user@132.174.145.156] has joined #scheme 13:24:26 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:32:30 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 13:38:43 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:45:28 bombshelter13_ [n=greg@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has joined #scheme 13:47:56 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-241-175-106.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:50:30 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-241-175-106.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 13:59:34 moo 13:59:38 weekend! 14:01:57 -!- ikaros [n=ikaros@g227070037.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:04:30 bzzbzz [n=franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 14:04:43 abbe [i=wall@abbe.is.a.member.of.pirateparty.in] has joined #scheme 14:05:26 luz [n=davids@189.122.121.232] has joined #scheme 14:06:07 annodomini [n=lambda@130.189.179.215] has joined #scheme 14:08:52 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-241-175-106.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:13:32 lolcow [n=lolcow@196-210-170-44-wblv-esr-3.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 14:16:15 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 14:18:08 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 14:22:59 dlt_ [n=dlt@201.80.197.178] has joined #scheme 14:23:06 -!- elmex [i=elmex@ist.m8geil.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:23:52 elmex [i=elmex@ist.m8geil.de] has joined #scheme 14:26:10 now this question may be stupid but im wondering if i can define more than one converter (like dollars to euro and euro to dollars and such) with an if else statement under a define statement 14:26:26 -!- jobf [n=jbf@c80-216-238-151.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:26:56 i even dont know what to call a define statement -im a real beginner 14:29:21 I call it a definition 14:29:33 yea right :) 14:30:27 im wondering if that kinda definition can be done in one paragraph.i can define the two converters in more than 2 definitions 14:31:03 you can have an internal definition if that is what you mean 14:31:06 if the input is dollars,use this equation and if else use the other 14:31:38 i guess what im taling about is that,an internal definition 14:31:44 elderK [n=zk@122-57-252-54.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 14:32:09 -!- elderK [n=zk@122-57-252-54.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 14:32:52 its the first thing to do when i have the power to reach drscheme and click on it :) 14:33:31 rudybot: (define (convert a b type) (define (dollars-to-euro a b) 'dollar-to-euro) (define (euro-to-dollar a b) 'euro-to-dollar)) (if (eq? type 'd-e) (dollar-to-euro a b) (euro-to-dollar))) 14:33:31 p1dzkl: eh? Try "rudybot: help". 14:33:36 rudybot: eval (define (convert a b type) (define (dollars-to-euro a b) 'dollar-to-euro) (define (euro-to-dollar a b) 'euro-to-dollar)) (if (eq? type 'd-e) (dollar-to-euro a b) (euro-to-dollar))) 14:33:37 p1dzkl: your r5rs sandbox is ready 14:33:37 p1dzkl: error: eval:1:179: read: unexpected `)' 14:33:45 thanks p1dzkl 14:33:46 rudybot: eval (define (convert a b type) (define (dollars-to-euro a b) 'dollar-to-euro) (define (euro-to-dollar a b) 'euro-to-dollar) (if (eq? type 'd-e) (dollar-to-euro a b) (euro-to-dollar))) 14:34:04 rudybot: eval (convert 1 2 'd-e) 14:34:04 p1dzkl: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: dollar-to-euro in module: 'program 14:34:14 -!- sh10151 [n=user@132.174.145.156] has left #scheme 14:34:18 oh blast 14:34:23 but you get the idea 14:34:27 nevermind ill just check i 14:34:28 yea 14:41:12 -!- pants5 [n=hkarau@69-196-191-3.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:41:14 projections: the classic way to do that is to use (let). Many schemes have some mechanism for you to use (define) within a (define) too. 14:42:03 projections: with plt-scheme you need to wrap internal definitions in (local), so it's not quite as convenient as MIT-scheme there... but I'm sure there's a good reason for that. 14:42:24 pants1 [n=hkarau@206-248-162-122.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 14:43:15 lisppaste: url 14:43:15 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste. 14:43:35 -!- ASau [n=user@host9-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["Off!"] 14:45:07 hkBst pasted "PLT: why does one macro not see another?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/80654 14:46:25 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-161-71.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 14:46:49 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:48:49 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@92.36.216.27] has joined #scheme 14:49:32 rudybot: eval (define-syntax foo (syntax-rules () ((_) 2))) (define-syntax bar (syntax-rules () ((_) (foo)))) 14:49:34 hkBst: your sandbox is ready 14:49:38 rudybot: eval (bar) 14:49:38 hkBst: ; Value: 2 14:50:23 reprore [n=reprore@EM114-48-133-14.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 14:50:34 rudybot: eval (define-syntax foo (syntax-rules () ((_) 2))) (define (f) (let-syntax bar (syntax-rules () ((_) (foo)))) 1) (bar) 14:50:35 hkBst: error: eval:1:58: let-syntax: bad syntax in: (let-syntax bar (syntax-rules () ((_) (foo)))) 14:50:55 rudybot: eval (define-syntax foo (syntax-rules () ((_) 2))) (define (f) (let-syntax ((bar (syntax-rules () ((_) (foo)))) )) 1) (bar) 14:50:55 hkBst: error: eval:1:58: let-syntax: bad syntax in: (let-syntax ((bar (syntax-rules () ((_) (foo)))))) 14:51:26 bad syntax! 14:51:56 rudybot: eval (define-syntax foo (syntax-rules () ((_) 2))) (define (f) (let-syntax ((bar (syntax-rules () ((_) (foo))) )) (bar))) (f) 14:51:57 hkBst: ; Value: 2 14:54:25 -!- synthase [n=synthase@adsl-220-161-115.mob.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:55:30 rudybot: eval (define-syntax foo (syntax-rules () ((_) 2))) (define (f) (let-syntax ((bar (lambda (x) (syntax-case x () ((_) (foo)))) )) (bar))) (f) 14:55:31 hkBst: error: reference to undefined identifier: foo 14:55:35 there you go 15:00:34 -!- mziulu [i=52555923@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-272a12eecb834eac] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 15:02:50 copumpki [n=pumpkin@dhcp-210-194.cs.dartmouth.edu] has joined #scheme 15:09:13 -!- copumpki is now known as pumpkin 15:12:10 jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 15:20:17 rudybot: eval (version) 15:20:17 hkBst: ; Value: "4.1.5.3" 15:21:31 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #scheme 15:22:27 JoelMcCracken [n=jmccrack@student312-1.psc.edu] has joined #scheme 15:22:46 can macro names be passed around like functions? 15:24:12 macros don't exist at run-time 15:24:31 ah, true 15:24:40 that explains that 15:32:38 -!- reprore [n=reprore@EM114-48-133-14.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:32:49 synx: thanks btw,i just read(friends came by) 15:34:49 don't mention it 15:36:35 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 15:37:59 does anyone know what/where the plt scheme usage license is? 15:38:35 ah nvm, gpl v2 15:38:49 joast, lgplv2 as mentioned at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PLT_Scheme 15:38:59 http://docs.plt-scheme.org/license/index.html 15:39:21 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 15:39:41 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-161-71.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:43:15 -!- rtra_ is now known as rtra 15:49:18 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw261071.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 15:50:09 dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-176-166.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 15:54:37 https://synx.us.to/code/scheme/html-text.ss 15:54:48 no problems, just showing it 15:55:15 saw that done in python once, wanted to have something like it in scheme 15:57:00 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:57:36 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:03:58 -!- rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-6-39.51-151.net24.it] has quit ["leaving"] 16:05:21 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:08:34 repror___ [n=reprore@ntkngw261071.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 16:08:58 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw261071.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:14:06 ikaros [n=ikaros@g227070037.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 16:15:12 So you can write a stackless tree traverser, by having each node in the tree contain a "parent" node. 16:15:49 But the amount of memory these parent nodes take up is the same as the amount of memory a stack of parent nodes built on the spot would take up. 16:16:12 In fact since recursion only needs to remember one branch at a time, it'd probably be far less memory. 16:16:47 reprore [n=reprore@i121-114-159-208.s04.a014.ap.plala.or.jp] has joined #scheme 16:17:45 it's more because you need the parent pointers for the whole tree, whereas with a stack you only need (tree-depth tree) pointers 16:17:52 repr_____ [n=reprore@ntkngw261071.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 16:17:57 -!- repror___ [n=reprore@ntkngw261071.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:18:48 That's what I meant. 16:19:03 "1 branch" = (tree-depth tree) 16:19:53 -!- xwl [n=user@114.246.82.145] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:20:03 anyway, this memory is not likely going to kill you either way 16:21:22 just that I don't think it's possible to write a more memory efficient tree traverser than one that uses a stack. 16:21:23 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@92.36.216.27] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:22:22 |jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 16:25:58 you can cheat and do in-place modification to get O(1) space 16:25:59 synx: with a zipper, you need something like 4 + (tree-size tree) memory 16:27:08 + O(n) for the tree so you didn't gain anything in big O 16:29:49 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 16:32:42 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has left #scheme 16:33:19 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 16:37:56 -!- Mr-Cat [n=Miranda@hermes.lanit.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:39:11 igraltist [n=jens@kasten-edv.de] has joined #scheme 16:39:46 -!- reprore [n=reprore@i121-114-159-208.s04.a014.ap.plala.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:41:07 -!- igraltist [n=jens@kasten-edv.de] has left #scheme 16:42:26 hkBst: You're using `foo' in the syntax phase, so you can't use the runtime definitions. 16:42:35 s/ions/ion/. 16:43:41 synx: re "with plt-scheme you need to wrap internal definitions in (local)" -- how you make such logical leaps is beyond me. It's still wrong. 16:44:32 Uh... you do though? I didn't think you could do (define (a) (define b 3))) 16:45:27 synx: Did you try it? 16:45:33 rudybot: eval (define (a) (define b 3)) 16:45:34 eli: your sandbox is ready 16:45:34 eli: error: eval:1:0: begin (possibly implicit): no expression after a sequence of internal definitions in: ((define b 3)) 16:45:38 rudybot: eval (define (a) (define b 3) (+ a b)) 16:45:48 rudybot: eval (a) 16:45:48 eli: error: +: expects type as 1st argument, given: #; other arguments were: 3 16:45:55 Um... yes... wait 16:46:03 lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has joined #scheme 16:46:07 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has left #scheme 16:47:36 Well whattya know you're right! 16:52:24 -!- ikaros [n=ikaros@g227070037.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:56:32 Surprising, right? 17:09:39 -!- npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:11:12 eli: i just read somewhere that PLT now supports a . op . notation, when did that get in? 17:11:30 duncanm: Yes it does. 17:11:49 And probably did so since before you knew that "Scheme" is a language. 17:12:35 Here, it was added in 2001. 17:14:08 Tankado [n=Woodruff@bzq-79-176-13-35.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #scheme 17:14:51 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:15:27 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #scheme 17:15:46 ASau` [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #scheme 17:15:56 -!- mmc [n=mima@esprx02x.nokia.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:16:02 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 17:19:34 -!- repr_____ [n=reprore@ntkngw261071.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:20:21 reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw261071.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 17:22:17 -!- jedc [n=jed1@c-98-232-225-102.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:26:20 -!- Tankado [n=Woodruff@bzq-79-176-13-35.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [] 17:27:30 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 17:29:46 eli: ah, i knew about Scheme before 2001 ;-) 17:30:24 What did you know? 17:30:41 You were like 8 years old then... 17:30:49 i bought my copy of SICP and read the first chapter 17:30:52 heh 17:32:28 In any case, the answer to your question is "a long time ago". 17:32:50 "in a galaxy far, far away" 17:33:08 Actually no -- in this galaxy. 17:33:19 Just like the stupid SW films. 17:33:22 im not sure you're from earth eli 17:33:44 men are from mars. 17:33:48 or soemthing. 17:34:17 eli is from Hoth 17:36:07 -!- lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has quit ["leaving"] 17:36:25 well, i understand that it could've been done a long time ago, but what i wanted to know was specifically when PLT Scheme included it in its setup 17:36:30 but yeah, now i know 17:40:29 -!- lolcow is now known as leppie 17:43:40 synthase [n=synthase@adsl-220-161-115.mob.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 18:16:24 npe [n=npe@91.180.55.179] has joined #scheme 18:17:19 repror___ [n=reprore@i121-114-159-208.s04.a014.ap.plala.or.jp] has joined #scheme 18:17:55 -!- reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw261071.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:19:56 -!- tjafk1 [n=timj@e176199127.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Client exiting"] 18:20:11 tjafk [n=timj@e176199127.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 18:32:01 fschwidom [n=fschwido@p5B26B12B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 18:33:32 -!- mornfall [n=mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:36:38 wy [n=wy@66.194.68.209] has joined #scheme 18:38:17 synx: you hate .NET, you should meet the wonderful world of COM :| 18:40:07 -!- kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:40:09 reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw261071.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 18:41:30 COM is older than .NET... and yes...much much horror 18:42:48 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:42:50 I guess it made sense at the time, with VB begin the big thing 18:43:01 s/begin/being 18:43:02 kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 18:56:13 -!- reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw261071.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:57:23 -!- repror___ [n=reprore@i121-114-159-208.s04.a014.ap.plala.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:00:38 -!- pumpkin [n=pumpkin@dhcp-210-194.cs.dartmouth.edu] has quit ["Leaving..."] 19:01:53 -!- kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:02:27 kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 19:05:42 Lilarcor [n=Lilarcor@208-59-127-107.c3-0.161-ubr1.lnh-161.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 19:07:04 geckosenator [n=sean@c-71-237-94-78.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:07:09 -!- jao [n=jao@8.Red-83-33-180.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:09:23 Ragnaroek [i=54a6570b@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-5762458d6a600121] has joined #scheme 19:19:06 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 19:21:15 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has left #scheme 19:21:46 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 19:36:45 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-177.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:37:54 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:48:29 -!- Lilarcor [n=Lilarcor@208-59-127-107.c3-0.161-ubr1.lnh-161.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["The Lord of Murder Shall Perish."] 19:51:13 -!- dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-176-166.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit ["-_-"] 19:54:49 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 19:55:01 ubunoob33 [n=ubuntu@89-180-167-254.net.novis.pt] has joined #scheme 19:55:06 hello 20:00:02 how can I 20:00:19 open the scheme interpreter I've just installed via synaptic? 20:00:37 which one did you choose? 20:00:40 sigscheme 20:00:50 only via the terminal? 20:00:59 probably 20:01:04 and is that one the best of them? 20:01:06 for a gui, get PLT 20:01:20 DrScheme 20:01:43 I got PLT 20:06:50 -!- bzzbzz [n=franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 20:12:06 -!- langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:17:41 wingo [n=wingo@237.Red-81-39-162.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 20:17:47 evening, schemers 20:19:01 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@92.36.171.115] has joined #scheme 20:21:01 leppie: http://imgur.com/pqmck.png 20:21:26 An expression can also be a function call. To call a function, put an open parenthesis before the function name, then expressions for the function arguments, and then a close parenthesis, like this: 20:21:26 > (circle 10) 20:21:26 20:21:26 A result from the circle function is a picture value, which prints as an expression result in much the same way that numbers or strings print. The argument to circle determines the circle’s size in pixels. As you might guess, there’s a rectangle function that takes two arguments instead of one: 20:21:39 it doesn't work 20:21:46 what might be the error? 20:22:57 incubot: you know what they say; men are from omicron persei 9, women are from omicron persei 7 20:23:00 Once he tried but he was beaten severely by the women of the men with the haste of his disobedient hand, another drop of tequilla would spill to the mountain, where we have hidden the machina. 20:23:31 faulkner? is that u 20:23:44 haha 20:23:46 oops, he did not get the intended reference :) 20:30:23 leppie, none of the 3 first examples I've tried produce nothing more than error messages 20:30:52 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:34:59 projections_ [n=projecti@88.235.101.2] has joined #scheme 20:36:59 -!- projections [n=projecti@88.235.101.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:37:15 meanburrito920_ [n=John@76-217-6-100.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 20:37:16 Lilarcor [n=Lilarcor@208-59-127-107.c3-0.161-ubr1.lnh-161.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 20:37:22 -!- Lilarcor [n=Lilarcor@208-59-127-107.c3-0.161-ubr1.lnh-161.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:40:26 nvteighen [n=nvteighe@123.Red-88-14-174.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 20:40:37 -!- nvteighen [n=nvteighe@123.Red-88-14-174.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has left #scheme 20:49:22 -!- fschwidom [n=fschwido@p5B26B12B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:51:11 -!- Ragnaroek [i=54a6570b@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-5762458d6a600121] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 20:54:03 sphex [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 20:56:36 duper` [n=duper@innu.org] has joined #scheme 20:57:10 Any IronScheme programmers here? 20:57:27 hey duper`, me 21:00:57 leppie, none of this works, what might be the error? 21:01:37 try reading the tutorial in the PLT manual 21:12:49 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:14:41 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:16:01 are there any common Schemes in use right now that don't READ (@ "well") as a list of a symbol |@| and a string "well"? 21:16:32 That is, even though @ is not a valid identifier, do most Schemes handle it when reading, or do they do something weird with it? 21:18:05 proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #scheme 21:19:56 Is there something wrong with http://paste.lisp.org/display/80676 ? I'd figure it should not be relying on evaluation order or such, nevertheless I get "tree of 0 nodes constructed" in Ypsilon... 21:21:43 arcfide: IronScheme does not support invalid R6RS syntax :) 21:21:57 sanita [n=sanchy@89.242.89.101] has joined #scheme 21:22:47 leppie: You mean IronScheme's READ Function does not read anything but valid R6RS programs? 21:24:33 it reads valid syntactic datum 21:24:46 *wingo* irritated by prohibition of @ 21:25:31 legalize @ now 21:25:42 Well, right now my S-expression format for RDF assumes that clients can easily read @ symbols. I'm wondering if this is damaging. 21:26:20 ask yourself, why do you really need a constant decoration 21:26:39 what does the @ do? 21:26:59 HuH? 21:27:12 Oh, and yes, i do want the constant decoration. 21:27:33 what does the decoration do? :p 21:27:43 It's a tag that identifies the type of literal. 21:28:39 Technically, I might be able to get away without it, but this would make parsing everything harder, and it wouldn't be easy to read. 21:28:55 (tag . value) ? 21:29:20 arcfide: the trouble is you do seem to have already used the common substitutes for @ to mean other things in your RDF format ;) 21:29:35 works well if you only use non lists there :) 21:29:49 := '(' '$' /string/ ')' | /number/ | /boolean/ | '(' '@' /string/ /name/ ')' | '(' '^' /string/ ')' 21:30:25 zbigniew: Yes. :-) I use tagging in places to make it easier to read and parse. 21:30:50 -!- meanburrito920_ [n=John@76-217-6-100.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["has been attacked by a grue"] 21:30:51 zbigniew: I don't like long tag names for this, so I am using single characters and trying to map them somewhat directly to the characters used in the Turtle RDF Format. 21:31:03 cursormire [n=pikseli@cs181151213.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 21:31:30 ok i understand 21:31:41 no solution though 21:32:14 you have the whole unicode table to go thru :) 21:32:25 Well, I'll be making the entire programming details of Descot available in PDF form soon enough, so you can judge for yourself. 21:32:41 leppie: This isn't going to use Unicode in the format if it doesn't have to. 21:33:52 Just as soon as submissions are cleaned up. 21:40:53 Modius [n=Modius@adsl-68-92-148-17.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 21:47:40 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:52:26 arcfide: is there no other reasonable choice of character? '@' will break on all R6RS implementations... 21:56:02 arcfide: sxml now uses ^ 21:58:12 ~!&*+-/?><=^_~ <--- should work on both R5RS and R6RS 21:58:58 wingo: arcfide already uses ^ for another purpose, apparently 21:59:01 rotty: I am considering the use of &. 21:59:40 -!- dlt_ [n=dlt@201.80.197.178] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:00:13 Why on earth would they not include @? What was the original rational for that? 22:01:01 something about ,@ iirc 22:01:14 but no, it does not make sense to me 22:01:17 *arcfide* shakes his head. 22:01:27 So, change that 22:02:00 Alright, well, it's officially changed now. 22:02:12 hey. wouldn't it be nice to have a binding construct somewhat like "let" that introduces bindings to its inner body, but doesn't hide the inner "define"s from the outer body? 22:02:17 what makes me ask why is why are the function names for car and cdr preceded by the action and not the other way around? 22:02:37 Its like reverse logic 22:03:05 (define contents-of-the-data-register cdr) 22:03:08 And when you have lots of setters theres long list of setters to scroll through 22:03:24 if it was car-set etc..... 22:03:25 -!- jonrafkind is now known as CXC3000____ 22:03:42 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=greg@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has quit [] 22:04:10 Same as some like their variable type before the variable name as in int_median, and some after median_int 22:04:13 sphex: And what about inner expressions? 22:04:58 -!- CXC3000____ is now known as Sevalecan 22:05:05 -!- Sevalecan [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 22:05:06 cursormire: You can think of it like this, you are not operating on a CAR, and thus, CAR-SET isn't appropriate. 22:05:35 arcfide: hrm, dunno.. just wondering if some schemes have something somewhat like that. 22:05:43 cursormire: VECTOR-SET implies that you are operating on a vector and setting something about that vector, whereas set-car implies that you are setting the CAR position of a PAIR. 22:06:05 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B0567D9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:06:07 Its not? I thought it was 22:06:23 sphex: Well, there is LET-SYNTAX which is a splicing form, and there is BEGIN, but that splices expressions as well as definitions. 22:06:28 jon1 [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 22:06:29 cursormire: What is not? 22:06:41 setting the car od a pair 22:06:43 let-syntax is officially a splicing form? 22:06:47 *of 22:07:08 -!- jon1 is now known as jonrafkind 22:07:30 I thought car stood for the first of the pair and when I set-car its set lol 22:07:34 nm 22:07:35 cursormire: If you wanted to do the type first, you might have a PAIR-SET form that worked like: (PAIR-SET! p 'car "blah") 22:07:43 it seems so. 22:08:32 cursormire: but SET-CAR! doesn't operate on a CAR, but on a pair. 22:09:06 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 22:09:19 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 22:10:40 -!- `Antonio-work` is now known as `Antonio` 22:10:48 *`Antonio`* jus off from work 22:10:53 pumpkin [n=pumpkin@pat133.border2-cfw.dartmouth.edu] has joined #scheme 22:13:27 arcfide but. As I recall CAR stood for the first register of a pair, historically. 22:13:43 arcfide: ok. what I was thinking of is something like: (begin (splice-body-let-or-something ((hidden-var 0)) (define (something-that-works-on-hidden-var) ...) (define (something-else-that-does-too) ...)) and both defines are visible here, but hidden-var is not ) 22:16:41 you can do (define something-that-works-on-hidden-var #f) (let ((hidden 0)) (set! something-that-works-on-hidden-var (lambda (...) ...))) 22:17:09 -!- alaricsp [n=alaricsp@217.205.201.45] has left #scheme 22:17:21 or (define-values (not-hidden-one not-hidden-two) (let ((hidden 0)) (values (lambda (...) ...) (lambda (...) ...)))) 22:17:31 Looking at this stuff as a new to it, its very heartening how schme clings to 30 years old historical stuff at the expense of clarity and intuitivity 22:17:45 +someone 22:17:57 cursormire: Huh? 22:18:03 cursormire: What exactly is your complaint? 22:18:06 dang my keyboard needs cleaning 22:18:17 well take car and cdr 22:18:24 cursormire: Are you complaining about the use of CAR or the use of SET-CAR! instead of CAR-SET!? 22:18:30 and the cadadr etc 22:19:02 sphex: That's what modules do, and yes, there are plenty of forms out there that do that. 22:19:29 You could always write your own syntax for that, too. 22:19:45 Not complainig. It makes me wanna do a version of scheme that has non-sensical convention stuff removed with non-sensical conventions of my own... 22:20:25 sphex: You can also use internal definitions. 22:20:38 sphex: (define x (lambda () (define ...) ...)) 22:21:26 cursormire: why is CAR nonsensical? It's short, it's simple, and it is no more arbitrary than to say the 1st element or second element of a pair. 22:21:52 -!- abbe [i=wall@abbe.is.a.member.of.pirateparty.in] has quit [] 22:22:11 cursormire: We're talking about pairs, not lists, where things like SRFI-1 define FIRST, SECOND, THIRD, &c. 22:22:26 hm, and easily confused with vehicles with 4 rubber tires 22:22:31 bombshelter13_ [n=greg@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has joined #scheme 22:22:32 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 22:23:04 p1dzkl: thanks. I thought about using set! that way but I was wondering about better ways.. gonna check define-values. 22:23:06 If I built a house and called the doors hashes, would ppl understand? 22:23:08 cursormire: There's no inherent order in a pair, except by convention. 22:23:20 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=greg@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:23:47 cursormire: Okay, so what are pairs called in other languages, and what exactly are their CARs and CDRs called? 22:24:23 "Aa, you have arrived, welcome, welcome, just step into the cache stack, but please take off your shoes" 22:25:14 arcfide somehow I think you know many more examples of that than I do. How about key-value? 22:25:17 cursormire: If I wrote a Scheme and called Pairs Distructs and the CAR the PRIME and the CDR the SECONDARY, would people understand me? 22:25:33 Key, value? 22:25:43 cursormire: Is a pair a Key and a Value? 22:26:05 Well, that was the closest thing that popped into my mind 22:26:07 A Pair is just two values, without any inherent association between the two or anything else. 22:26:26 pairs could be the two branches of a tree, in which case CAR and CDR might be renamed to LEFT and RIGHT or RIGHT and LEFT, respecitvely. 22:26:43 So suppose I had a new house with two kitchens. Would the other be colled COW and the other CDW? 22:26:55 Sure, if you wanted. 22:27:24 ikaros [n=ikaros@g226130222.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 22:27:25 My point is there is no reason not to use perfectly understandable common concepts even for abstract programmatical (whatever) structures 22:27:41 Okay, so what are these common concepts that you are speakin gof? 22:27:54 arcfide: ok yeah.. I see that some schemes can have "inner modules" that can do that.. but I guess some macro would be more portable than relying on a module system for just that.. anyway. 22:28:00 Well, in this example, the first of pair? and latter of pair? 22:28:02 arcfide, some Schemes accept leading @ in identifiers and some do not. Don't use it -- it makes the syntax ambiguous. 22:28:38 cursormire, Okay, why is it the first, and why the latter? Nothing says that they ought to be. In fact, why not make the CDR of a PAIR to be the first name of a person and the CAR the last? 22:28:53 Maybe I could rename CAR to FOP and CDT to LOP 22:29:16 Then you could LOOP, FLOP and FOOP 22:29:20 sphex: In general, you don't need it in practice, I would say, but if you want it, I would expect it to exist somewhere. 22:29:28 (Lots of terms in English are much older than fifty years!) 22:29:58 Car and cdr compose. But firrerirrest is pretty hard to pronounce and discern the parts of. 22:30:00 arcfide but now, the origins of CAR and CDR do have the former and latter in then in a way.... 22:30:38 Just curious -- what do you two expect to get out of this discussion? 22:31:20 *arcfide* chuckles. 22:31:32 Rianstradh well, once I am done, scheme language spec will be subject to my etymological whim 22:31:48 -!- geckosenator [n=sean@c-71-237-94-78.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 22:32:04 (Who's `Rianstradh'?) 22:32:20 -!- pumpkin is now known as Rianstradh 22:32:24 *Rianstradh* coughs 22:32:30 =P 22:32:32 -!- Rianstradh is now known as pumpkin 22:32:44 cursormire: They're nice, they compose, they have backwards compatibility, and they don't unnecessarily imply something about the pairs, hence, they generally are better kept than changed. 22:33:13 -n 22:34:17 geckosenator [n=sean@c-71-237-94-78.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:35:10 -!- wingo [n=wingo@237.Red-81-39-162.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:39:57 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 22:43:35 X-Scale2 [n=email@89.180.198.110] has joined #scheme 22:49:37 -!- X-Scale [i=email@89.180.145.177] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:51:41 incubot: qooder ur qars, matee! 22:51:44 qooder is cdr vocalized. 22:52:06 incubot: been-go! 22:52:09 Pika has been defunct for a couple of years now. 22:52:31 no linkado... 22:55:11 -!- projections_ [n=projecti@88.235.101.2] has left #scheme 22:55:47 *`Antonio`* is so confused 22:57:04 projections [n=projecti@88.235.101.2] has joined #scheme 22:58:07 hah, incubot knows about Pika :-) 23:09:51 -!- Elly [n=elly@unaffiliated/elly] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:10:15 Elly [n=elly@unaffiliated/elly] has joined #scheme 23:10:45 'Antonio' do you maintain lamnbdabeans? 23:13:19 `Antonio` even 23:14:02 <`Antonio`> no 23:14:51 _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@modemcable183.11-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 23:27:14 Does anyone know of any code for processing multipart/form-data submissions? 23:29:22 -!- geckosenator [n=sean@c-71-237-94-78.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:29:49 arcfide: http://chicken.wiki.br/eggref/3/http-server-form-posts 23:30:21 Well whaddya know. 23:30:25 :) 23:31:04 -!- jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:34:53 geckosenator [n=sean@c-71-237-94-78.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:38:11 mike [n=m@dslb-088-065-169-034.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 23:38:46 Frig... 23:39:05 ...erator? 23:39:06 I think you meant 23:39:19 sjamaan: Well, thanks, it looks like this is a bit of a porting job. :-) At least everything seems BSD Licensed or Public Domain. 23:40:55 This is gonna be fun. 23:42:23 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-70-240-12-151.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 23:43:09 neilv [n=user@dsl092-071-029.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #scheme 23:44:48 oops. i somehow corrupted my local plt scribble documentation 23:45:28 http://www.freeimagehosting.net/image.php?334bb90512.png 23:45:44 wonder when that happened. i don't remember, say, a planet install barfing 23:49:17 *`Antonio`* the second script is done ! so happy ! great job sanita! 23:51:41 does wikipedia learn to pop up in the first place on google when you search something or am i just dreaming? 23:51:58 as more i click on wikipedia links i mean 23:53:52 something like a recommendation engine running on google?maybe? 23:56:28 -!- mike [n=m@dslb-088-065-169-034.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:57:25 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:58:32 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-68-92-148-17.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]