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[n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 02:10:16 -!- kniu [n=kniu@CMU-284828.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:12:36 kniu [n=kniu@HUBBABUBBA.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 02:13:04 yome [n=guillaum@bas4-montreal28-1177570516.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #scheme 02:13:40 morning, yome! 02:13:40 -!- yome [n=guillaum@bas4-montreal28-1177570516.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 02:13:53 yome [n=guillaum@bas4-montreal28-1177570516.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #scheme 02:15:28 -!- Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-243-83-84.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 02:16:02 Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-243-83-84.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 02:27:11 -!- raikov [n=igr@60.32.127.43] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:37:38 http://research.sun.com/minds/2005-0302/ 02:37:51 "Guy Steele leads a small team of researchers in Burlington, Massachusetts, who are taking on an enormous challenge -- create a programming language better than Java." 02:37:58 ...hahahaha. 02:37:59 It can't be done I tell you! 02:44:30 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-182-152.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 02:45:35 Isn't java the most successful computer language ever ? 02:45:46 -!- mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:46:21 http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html 02:47:17 -!- underspecified_ [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has quit [] 02:48:30 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 02:48:36 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 02:51:04 That's just a blank page. 02:51:25 Fare [n=Fare@c-98-216-111-110.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:51:59 ... but if you define "better" as "more popular" than Fortress was doomed before it started. It's a language for scientific computing, not web development. 02:52:10 tjafk2 [n=timj@e176212162.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 02:52:54 COBOL is better than Scheme, by that standard 02:52:55 -!- photon is now known as Guest52575 02:53:09 and VB is one of the damn best languages ever 02:53:40 Well, COBOL _is_ better. I mean, none of us would be here if there were any COBOL jobs available. 02:57:22 photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #scheme 02:58:23 -!- Guest52575 [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit [Success] 02:59:32 saccade [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 03:03:22 dysinger [n=tim@166.129.55.199] has joined #scheme 03:03:25 Does anybody know of refactoring tools for Scheme? 03:03:40 xwl_ [n=user@147.243.236.60] has joined #scheme 03:03:44 Schemers don't refactor, they rewrite! 03:03:58 yome: It's called small procedures. 03:04:56 raikov [n=igr@60.32.127.43] has joined #scheme 03:05:10 arcfide, if only things were so simple. 03:05:27 Actually, that's been something that's bothering me too. 03:05:28 yome: Do you have some specific code that you need to refactor? 03:05:58 arcfide, yes. 03:06:23 yome: I am curious what it is, if you don't mind detailing it. 03:06:35 A video game. 03:07:38 foof, any ideas? 03:08:01 copy-paste :) 03:08:01 foof: What has been bothering you? 03:08:17 yome: What exactly do you mean when you say refactoring? 03:08:21 Well, I keep putting off writing basic utilities for renaming/parameter reordering in Emacs. 03:09:04 arcfide, renaming variables, extracting methods, changing order of parameters, etc. 03:09:20 (Stupidly in scheme-mode M-x query-replace-regexp \ \ Doesn't work because it treats - as a word boundary.) 03:09:21 -!- tjafk1 [n=timj@e176204019.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:09:36 Scheme is probably the easiest language to build tools like that for... 03:09:40 foof, in elisp? 03:09:44 yes 03:10:28 However, what I really want to do is use my text-buffer code which already has commands for manipulating sexps and build the code on top of that, then give it a command-line interface (because it'll be years before I build the graphical interface). 03:10:32 Well, only *some* refactorings would be really easy in Scheme.. 03:12:27 Huh, you know, I have to admit that whenever I have had to do that kind of code modification, it has been pretty trivial. Enough that the thought of automating it didn't strike me as really useful. 03:15:33 foof: Wouldn't Edwin make that easier? 03:21:54 arcfide: I've been refactoring in a project w/ 40 Scheme modules recently, so doing it by hand gets _really_ tedious. 03:22:39 dysinger_ [n=tim@166.129.147.93] has joined #scheme 03:22:43 And even my editor's graphical interface is already on par with edwin, I just don't use it because it can't do syntax-highlighting (which edwin can't either). 03:23:14 -!- ttmrichter_ [n=ttmricht@59.172.140.213] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 03:23:45 Does edwin have abstract text-buffers usable without a GUI? 03:25:46 foof: What do you mean by that? Maybe I misunderstood what you mean by text-buffer code. 03:25:58 Ooh! 03:26:20 A string-like data-structure that supports efficient insertion and deleting. 03:26:42 By text-buffer code you meant a library for interfacing with chunks and blocks of code in ways that make text editing easy. 03:26:50 s/code/data/ 03:26:57 yes 03:27:03 Ah, sorry, nevermind then. 03:27:54 -!- photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit [Success] 03:27:55 that's one thing that I really like in Visual Studio (C# specifically) :) 03:28:09 My thoughts were that if you already had code written in Scheme for manipulating text, then you could use it in Edwin rather than having to port it to Elisp. 03:28:37 But if you are addicted to Syntax Highlighting, that isn't going to help you. 03:28:59 *leppie* likes pretty colors 03:29:18 and pixel perfectly rendered text 03:30:44 foof: would one not be able to use syntax-case for renaming tasks? 03:32:07 ? 03:32:24 What would you want to use syntax-case for? You sure don't want to expand any of the macros. 03:32:52 no, but for detecting bound/free indentifiers 03:32:52 You need runtime pattern-matching and template substitution. 03:35:24 Well, I'm pretty appalled right now that my most recent project (a web application) has 38 library dependencies. 03:35:53 Most of them are external libraries, and many of them are sub-dependencies of the main dependencies, but it's pretty annoying nonetheless. 03:35:56 LOL 03:36:34 how many do you actually use? 03:36:58 The program itself really only has about three or four modules, though. I actively use about sixteen of those libraries. 03:37:30 -!- dysinger [n=tim@166.129.55.199] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:37:56 Library code: 17718 Lines; My code: 1484 lines. 03:38:11 that's still a lot, 16 possible different ways of style and intent to deal with. 03:38:55 leppie: I wrote six of those libraries, the other ten I don't touch except for bug fixes, and it's really pretty easy. 03:39:24 Refactoring my own code is pretty easy, because I am fairly consistent. 03:40:49 :) sometimes your own style and intent confuses you a few years later 03:41:31 leppie: It can. :-) Feel free to check out my code and see if it is confusing to you or not. ;-) 03:41:49 I think the most confusing thing I ever did was a macro that dynamically loads the right files that it needs at compile time for each system. 03:42:07 By confusing here, I mean most likely to mess me up in the future. 03:42:58 -!- raikov [n=igr@60.32.127.43] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:48:17 offby1` [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 03:52:42 How many other Schemes have Mutexes of some sort? 03:52:52 Every Scheme with SRFI-18 support. 03:53:09 ... which is most major Schemes other than Ikarus :) 03:53:35 Hahah. 03:53:41 Ikarus is now a major Implementation, huh? 03:53:57 Well, thinking about it, I think Lockfiles are probably better here. 03:54:24 Maybe. It hasn't had a release in over a year though. 03:55:11 foof: That's because Aziz does not like making releases, I'll wager. ;-) I think the snapshot tree actually has been active. 03:55:36 At last, the last time I talked with Aziz, it was something like ... 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pack. 06:31:29 But it's amusing that nobody noticed the ridiculousness of doing the same on the 9v pack. 06:32:29 The package a single battery came in was made ...resealable. 06:32:48 well, else what would happen if you change your mind after opening? 06:35:01 The world will explode, probably. 06:37:10 -!- geckosenator [n=sean@c-71-237-94-78.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:41:39 Well, if you only need it brielfy you can use it, reseal, and keep it in the freezer for longer battery life. 06:44:10 attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-134-6-30.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #scheme 06:44:54 When was the last time you needed a 9v battery briefly? 06:48:49 dysinger [n=tim@166.129.172.74] has joined #scheme 06:51:51 ASau` [n=user@host126-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #scheme 06:54:34 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #scheme 06:56:08 xwl_ [n=user@147.243.236.60] has joined #scheme 06:56:15 -!- xwl_ [n=user@147.243.236.60] has quit [Remote closed 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13:51:33 -!- projections [n=projecti@88.235.101.2] has left #scheme 13:57:07 langmartin [n=user@152.85.133.62] has joined #scheme 13:58:22 attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-134-6-30.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #scheme 14:00:05 underspecified_ [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 14:02:50 offby1` [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 14:03:39 yawn 14:05:39 offby1`: "But it's dog-slow. PLT's is better." <-- You mean something is slower than PLT's search function? 14:08:39 leppie: If you're trying to joke at PLT's help speed, you're *very* welcome to improve it, or at least understand what it does and suggest a way to improve it, or at least *use* it more than once/day to see exactly how fast/slow it is. 14:11:08 -!- ASau` [n=user@host126-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["Off!"] 14:11:31 -!- offby1` is now known as offby1 14:12:33 ikaros [n=ikaros@78.52.208.47] has joined #scheme 14:13:14 I confess I'm sometimes frustrated with the slowness of the _interactive_ search -- the one which filters the results every time I add a letter to the search box -- but the normal one is plenty fast 14:14:16 eli: I have no idea how it works, but waiting 2+ minutes for a response is rather slow, not trying to be funny or anything 14:15:13 is that normal? 14:15:23 I've never seen anything like that kind of slowness 14:15:27 2 minutes? Where did you hear that? 14:15:30 I'm talking about a fraction of a second per keystroke 14:15:38 Not hear, experience 14:15:46 Here, I'll open the search page. 14:15:51 and someone else mentioned it 14:15:55 leppie: Done, give me a search term 14:16:11 *eli* 's waiting. 14:16:19 hang on 14:16:32 less than 20 matches. 14:16:35 what's the url, need to see if I got history 14:16:36 Another search? 14:16:43 http://docs.plt-scheme.org/search/ 14:17:28 offby1: The thing that filters your result should not interfere with the speed of writing extra characters -- it just starts the search from scratch. 14:18:03 It's a bit that I'm proud of -- having "threads" in JS by manually CPSing some code. 14:18:05 hm 14:18:13 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-98-216-111-110.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:18:22 to be honest I don't use that feature much 14:18:22 ok im waiting for a result, long wait now 14:18:40 That is, when you type a new character, it kills the "searching thread" and starts a new one. 14:18:44 oooh, I wonder if leppie is talking about searching http://docs.plt-scheme.etc as opposed to locally 14:18:59 no, on the web 14:19:26 -!- langmartin [n=user@152.85.133.62] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:19:42 leppie: If there are more than around 2 seconds from the time you enter a search term to the time you see results, then either something is very wrong with your browser, or you need to upgrade you 386. 14:20:08 langmartin [n=user@152.85.133.62] has joined #scheme 14:20:12 going 3 minutes now... 14:20:18 still waiting 14:20:24 Waiting for what? 14:20:26 maybe javascript execution is blocked or something similar? 14:20:41 for the page to load completely 14:20:52 i see 'Search Manuals', but no results yet 14:21:14 about 20 seconds to get results for http://docs.plt-scheme.org/search/index.html?q=lambda 14:21:31 leppie: Let me repeat: blah blah blah <<>> blah blah blah 14:22:01 The index is large -- about 3MB holding a big JS array. 14:22:16 but now it's three seconds, so I suspect 17 of those seconds were loading up something that's now cached 14:22:30 eli: is it my imagination, or is web programming one horrible kludge after another? 14:22:56 apropos large indices, "Alltheweb.com says it already holds 200m unique Web addresses in its database, or 25% of the 800m URLs (Uniform Resource Locators) estimated to be out there", from 10 years ago. 14:23:14 bpalmer: stalker!! 14:23:16 *offby1* hides 14:24:36 (in 2008, google claimed to have gone over > 1 trillion unique URLs) 14:25:19 http://random.site?q=frotz and http://random.site?q=frotz%20 counting as separate, no doubt 14:25:21 plt-index.js = 2.8MB in size... perhaps the fact I do not have a LAN connection it will be slow, allways... 14:25:38 how often does that file update? 14:25:55 it _should_ stay cached for a while 14:26:30 leppie: but I assume PLT's search is notably slower than other sites? 14:26:48 -!- langmartin [n=user@152.85.133.62] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:26:49 other sites? 14:27:19 langmartin [n=user@152.85.133.62] has joined #scheme 14:27:37 ok IE managed to load the js file, FF otoh seems to stall at 2mb 14:27:39 leppie: (a) The file is part of the installation too, so then you don't pay for the download. 14:28:07 (b) the speed of getting it on the web depends on your connection of course; there's nothing I can do about this 14:28:31 -!- langmartin [n=user@152.85.133.62] has quit [Client Quit] 14:28:33 Perhaps a small notice, unless you want more people to get the wrong impression 14:28:34 (c) just for your amusement, I measured the speed of openning that page in the browsers I have installed, 14:28:44 I get (using a stopwatch, not including FF which is my open browser): chrome -- 7s, IE -- 5s, Opera -- 4s, Safari -- 4s. 14:29:05 thats good :) 14:29:20 -!- xwl [n=user@114.246.86.211] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:29:22 -!- ttmrichter [n=ttmricht@59.172.140.213] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 14:29:39 And that's on a ~3 years old laptop, btw. Not some frighteningly fast server or something. 14:30:08 And it it includes the download time too (the last time I viewed that page on these browsers was more than a month ago). 14:30:13 eli: are you sure your browsers don't have it cached? 14:30:30 ah, hmm. 14:30:30 bpalmer: Yes. I'm only using FF. 14:31:04 I'm using other browsers when I try stuff out, and I can promise you that I didn't have a single second in at least a month to even think about web stuff. 14:31:34 ok eli, the subsequent searches are fast :) 14:31:44 [The only way in which the download could have been faster is if they share the FF cache. I find that questionable though.] 14:31:46 i'll keep that in mind next time 14:32:12 eli: it's faintly possible that some other mozilla-based browser might share the cache, but Opera, IE, and Safari? Get outta here 14:32:45 a caching proxy would also do it. 14:32:48 offby1: Yeah, I think that even separate mozilla browsers don't share a cache, at least not on my linux machine. 14:33:28 bpalmer: No, no proxies. It's a stupid Windows laptop, behind a simple wireless router -- and beyond that is the bare net. 14:34:21 leppie: There is nothing I know about that can speed up loading the index -- and believe me, I tried. Zipping will have a huge problem in that it will take cpu time to uncompress it. (It does do some very simple comprerssion of the information though, in an attempt to make the file smaller.) 14:35:40 ok i can understand that 14:35:43 offby1: And re your kludge question -- I'm sure that you know about it more than I do (about the fact that web programming is a pile of kludges, that is). 14:35:55 and if you are running locally or with a high speed conenction that is fine too 14:36:16 leppie: Are you physically far from the US and/or using a slow connection? 14:36:23 wahjava [n=abbe@opennic/abbe] has joined #scheme 14:36:27 the other alternative is just doing the search on the server 14:36:35 [It's been a long while since downloading 3mb took a noticeable time.] 14:36:39 well far, but 4mb connection 14:37:05 im limited to about 384k per connection 14:37:20 luz [n=davids@189.122.121.232] has joined #scheme 14:37:27 thats about 50KB/s 14:37:33 From using "4mb connection", I'm guessing that you're on a different continent, and having a fast local connection doesn't mean that you have a fast connection elsewhere. 14:37:53 That was my experience when I connected from Israel -- working through VNC was a total nightmare. 14:37:56 so ideally it should take 60 seconds at most, but i guess the conenction is bad 14:38:11 South Africa or something, isn't it? 14:38:18 if I open multple connections I can 14:38:24 yes Riastradh 14:38:36 Weird. 14:38:46 so if I download plt, I can download at fullspeed, opening 12 conenctions 14:38:55 Someone between you and the intertubes must be doing some obnoxious traffic reshaping. 14:39:27 no, someone is stealing the copper wires probably :( 14:39:33 Riastradh: that's definitely what's going on in those places. I had a very similarly sounding experience from Israel. 14:40:02 No, leppie -- that would affect every packet. You're talking about multiple TCP connections inducing a higher bandwidth. 14:40:50 leppie: And we did consider doing the search on the server -- obviously. The biggest advantage of doing that goes far beyond speed, it would allow us to write the search code in Scheme, and do much more that stupid JS can do. 14:41:08 In other words, there must be some capacity between you and the remote host that is being deliberately unused when you have only one TCP connection. 14:41:22 like a proper DB for starters vs a JS array :) 14:41:43 yeah Riastradh 14:41:56 my package is called semi-shaped 14:41:56 Since this is not the sort of thing that backbones do, and probably not the sort of thing that the server's provider does, I'm guessing that it's a consumer ISP -- which are, I suspect, the vilest of the crowd -- that is being obnoxious. 14:42:00 Well, with Scheme we can get the speed in a number of ways... No need for a proper DB, even. 14:42:59 Anyway, re the server -- that would require the web server when you run PLT help, and that is very difficult to do right portably for the obvious reasons. 14:43:37 i can get unshaped at lower speed at much higher price, but they still dont garuntee any international speed, ridiculous really, for the price we pay 14:43:57 So it sounds to me as though you have a more serious problem to complain about (to your ISP, of course, not to eli!) than the observed speed of PLT's help! 14:44:10 get what I pay for my line rental + 8GB of total bandwidth a month? 14:44:38 Riastradh: At least in Israel there is a ridiculous separation between your "Internet provider" and your "content provider" -- the bottom line of this is that you're connecting to one company, then tunneling to another to get your bits. University lines do not suffer from this stupidity, and they tend to be much better. 14:44:52 guessing the exchange rate about US$120 14:46:22 Riastradh: a 3mb JS file is big, no matter where you are 14:47:43 it might be worth enabling gzip on the server; presumably the browser would cache the expanded content 14:48:01 bpalmer: it is enabled from what I could see 14:48:32 even partiationing the index would help IMO 14:48:46 I just tried it, and it finished too quickly for me to think to start timing anything... 14:48:48 leppie: My line at home (a standard cable modem) gets me about 1mb/s downloads. 14:51:00 To be fair, though, I tried it from another university link. If I try it from home, it takes some eight seconds (and also to be fair, home for me (and for eli, I imagine) is probably not too topologically distant from the PLT web server). 14:52:12 I'm not seeing Content-encoding: gzip in the response. 14:52:43 Yes, I'm close too. 14:52:44 oh ok, maybe I was lookuing in the wrong place :p 14:58:24 -!- hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD124214245222.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:58:30 im only getting about 12KB/s from a single connection to the download server :( 14:59:16 hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD124214245222.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 14:59:28 -!- and` [n=hufs4@ti0035a340-1467.bb.online.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:03:42 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #scheme 15:06:41 12kb/s sounds even worse than I had from israel... 15:08:32 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #scheme 15:08:52 my latency is good to that server 15:09:14 not sure why speed is so bad :( i'll try again later tonite 15:20:55 zedstar [n=john@fsf/member/zedstar] has joined #scheme 15:26:25 dlt_ [n=dlt@201.80.181.75] has joined #scheme 15:27:45 -!- |jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:30:41 lvsv1 [n=lsv@decyatka.starlink.ru] has joined #scheme 15:34:25 -!- higepon786 [n=taro@FLH1Aip247.tky.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:35:32 -!- mmc [n=mima@esprx02x.nokia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:42:35 langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 15:43:10 |jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 15:45:31 -!- lvsv [n=lsv@altlinux/developer/barabashka] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:46:26 dlt__ [n=dlt@201.80.181.75] has joined #scheme 15:50:58 -!- |jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:53:23 jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 16:02:52 -!- dlt_ [n=dlt@201.80.181.75] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:05:47 |jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 16:06:54 -!- lvsv1 [n=lsv@decyatka.starlink.ru] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:08:08 -!- Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-243-83-84.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit ["I'm big in Japan"] 16:11:31 rstandy [n=rastandy@host89-142-static.5-79-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 16:11:43 HG` [n=wells@xdslfd103.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 16:12:16 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:12:54 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 16:13:39 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 16:15:43 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:22:04 ejs [n=eugen@107-118-112-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 16:31:49 -!- raikov [n=igr@134.74.145.122.ap.yournet.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:37:58 Was 2003 so long ago? My code from then is total garbage :/ 16:39:25 Did you place it in a tightly sealed container before freezing? 16:40:56 if not, it's probably not safe to consume at this date; toss it and order out. 16:41:06 No, I placed it in CVS, which was the fashion at the time... 16:43:03 ah, like the onions on our belts 16:43:56 Red onions, of course; all the white onions were rationed because of the war... 16:45:48 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-204-63-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:45:48 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:45:48 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:48:36 Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-243-83-84.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 16:48:51 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-129-62.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 16:49:40 Nichibutsu [n=myfabse@wikipedia/Track-n-Field] has joined #scheme 16:50:33 geckosenator [n=sean@c-71-237-94-78.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:51:19 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 16:51:29 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 16:51:42 2003? that's nothing. i just discovered code from when i was 12 16:52:07 I recently dug up some email I wrote around that age. 16:52:37 yeah, i also had some irc logs with some embarassing typos 16:53:11 ;-) 16:58:34 elias` [n=me@resnet-pat-254.ucs.ed.ac.uk] has joined #scheme 17:02:57 -!- ejs [n=eugen@107-118-112-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:13:09 mrscheme [n=user@67.110.140.180.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #scheme 17:23:34 -!- wy [n=wy@66.194.68.209] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:23:39 wy [n=wy@66.194.68.209] has joined #scheme 17:23:46 -!- wy [n=wy@66.194.68.209] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:30:39 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@host89-142-static.5-79-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:36:39 -!- proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:37:24 ct2rips [n=ct2rips@blfd-4db0e126.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #scheme 17:37:26 ct2rips_ [n=ct2rips@blfd-4db0e126.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #scheme 17:37:55 -!- ct2rips [n=ct2rips@blfd-4db0e126.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:42:45 metasyntax|work [n=taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 17:44:35 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-129-62.netcologne.de] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/"] 17:44:53 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-251-98-238.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 17:47:20 -!- HG` [n=wells@xdslfd103.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 17:48:52 -!- ct2rips_ [n=ct2rips@blfd-4db0e126.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:48:54 -!- ikaros [n=ikaros@78.52.208.47] has quit ["Leave the magic to Houdini"] 17:49:28 ct2rips [n=ct2rips@blfd-4db0e126.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #scheme 17:51:21 proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #scheme 18:07:17 -!- jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["leaving"] 18:07:37 jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 18:08:26 flaschenwein [n=olaf_rog@p5080A473.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 18:13:32 mmc [n=mima@cs138007.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 18:32:19 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-247-194-183.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:33:08 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-247-204-102.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 18:38:58 -!- wahjava [n=abbe@opennic/abbe] has quit [] 18:44:29 -!- amoe [n=amoe@cpc1-brig3-0-0-cust512.brig.cable.ntl.com] has left #scheme 18:45:51 -!- Kusanagi [n=Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:50:43 wingo [n=wingo@248.Red-79-156-146.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 18:55:02 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 18:55:14 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 19:02:03 -!- jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:12:09 mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 19:12:55 ejs [n=eugen@211-175-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 19:20:48 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 19:22:06 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 19:23:46 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-179-119.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #scheme 19:25:03 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 19:26:16 -!- Nichibutsu [n=myfabse@wikipedia/Track-n-Field] has quit [] 19:43:37 Kusanagi [n=Lernaean@24-107-112-153.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 19:47:50 saccade [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 19:48:24 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@adsl-89-132-3-172.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #scheme 19:50:01 http://programming-musings.org/2009/05/14/geiser/ 19:50:52 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-134-6-30.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:51:38 -!- rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-234-19.51-151.net24.it] has quit ["leaving"] 19:58:28 jao [n=jao@129.Red-83-42-110.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 20:01:33 -!- jao [n=jao@129.Red-83-42-110.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:02:30 *wingo* experiencing cognitive dissonance 20:02:43 when you write characters to a port, you use write-char or similar 20:03:04 ikaros [n=ikaros@78.52.208.47] has joined #scheme 20:03:11 but most impls provide string ports 20:03:19 so you're really collecting data 20:03:42 so if i have a similar API (sequentially produce objects, then collect them) 20:03:54 and i use side effects 20:04:03 i don't know whether to write them with ! or not ;-) 20:04:10 function naming-wise. 20:05:57 wingo: Do you know richard gabriel? 20:06:13 richard-gabriel! 20:06:44 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 20:06:55 (That would be the side-effect version...) 20:07:04 eli: i only saw him bumbling about in sweatpants at ilc :) 20:07:14 he was wearing the sweatpants. 20:07:18 wingo: So you didn't look at his site? 20:07:27 eli: oh yes i've read lots of it 20:07:33 what's the reference? 20:07:36 greetings btw 20:08:02 wingo: here -- http://tmp.barzilay.org/x.jpg 20:09:06 hey, someone took my glasses and put them on some funnylooking person 20:10:18 Yeah... I was wondering whether you knew about this. 20:11:22 wingo: here's another one -- http://tmp.barzilay.org/y.jpg 20:11:38 robot says forbidden 20:11:56 Sorry, try again now. 20:12:32 i did look for myself, egotistically, among his gazillion images 20:12:37 -!- saccade [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:12:57 he'll take photos of anyone it seems 20:13:03 You're there. 20:13:11 -!- ct2rips [n=ct2rips@blfd-4db0e126.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Noch da, noch da ... Uuuuund weg."] 20:13:33 I was wondering who that was, and the frightening resolution makes it possible to just read the name tags... 20:13:55 yeah, gratifyingly. 20:14:05 :) 20:14:16 eli: did you see him wandering about the talks? he had an enormous lens attached to his photo device 20:14:32 (It's even possible to read all kinds of texts, it's amusing really...) 20:14:41 heh 20:15:01 No, I didn't spend that much time, but whatever lens he had, it seems to be worth it -- there are some very impressive pictures there. 20:15:46 i was envious of yall, orbiting closer to the scheme mothership than myself 20:15:47 (I can only talk as an ex-wannabe, enough to know what I'd like to be able to do, if I had the time and $$s.) 20:15:54 heh 20:16:08 imitate gabriel and run a company into the ground! :) 20:16:18 Ha... 20:16:20 (have you read /patterns of software/ ? it's lovely.) 20:16:21 jao [n=jao@152.Red-83-39-134.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 20:16:40 Well, at least these days the biggest scheme center is across the river from that place. 20:16:46 yeah 20:16:53 i was hearing from duncanm about some hall 20:17:05 with felleisen and clinger and what, shivers and flatt & co? 20:17:16 just like doors down from each other? 20:17:34 also some barzilay guy 20:17:37 :) 20:17:46 Mitch Wand, Will Clinger, and two doors away Olin Shivers. 20:17:49 hey wingo and eli! 20:17:51 I'm one of the two doors. 20:17:57 howdy duncanm :) 20:17:59 And Felleisen is on the other side. 20:18:13 duncanm: Good morning. 20:18:20 that's some thinkpower there 20:20:19 Mr_Awesome [n=eric@isr5452.urh.uiuc.edu] has joined #scheme 20:25:21 -!- ejs [n=eugen@211-175-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:28:19 wingo: http://www.flickr.com/photos/90204102@N00/3454633763/ 20:29:48 -!- Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-243-83-84.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:29:57 scary resolution 20:30:03 heh 20:30:19 gabriel has a weinreb fetish :P 20:32:00 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@92.36.129.1] has joined #scheme 20:35:14 -!- ikaros [n=ikaros@78.52.208.47] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:35:20 ikaros_ [n=ikaros@e176230175.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 20:36:17 Modius [n=Modius@ppp-69-148-16-89.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 20:46:02 ken-p [n=ken-p@84.92.70.37] has joined #scheme 20:47:59 projections [n=projecti@88.235.101.2] has joined #scheme 20:55:35 -!- jao [n=jao@152.Red-83-39-134.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:57:13 jao [n=jao@98.Red-83-42-110.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 20:58:03 -!- dysinger [n=tim@166.129.70.121] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:00:13 -!- mrscheme [n=user@67.110.140.180.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:12:09 synthase [n=synthase@c-68-63-19-212.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:16:13 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs138007.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:17:13 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:19:42 dysinger [n=tim@c-98-246-172-196.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:25:44 sanguinev [n=sanguine@116.197.145.49] has joined #scheme 21:28:57 -!- Kusanagi [n=Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:32:13 -!- langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:33:21 -!- sanguine1 [n=sanguine@116.197.145.49] has quit [No route to host] 21:33:28 wingo_ [n=wingo@235.Red-88-0-165.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 21:35:14 -!- dlt__ [n=dlt@201.80.181.75] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:37:12 incubot: I am very glad that OS X comes with the hundred-year-old bash 2.05b.0(1)-release, which has a broken PIPESTATUS variable; otherwise my day might be more pleasant 21:37:12 Error: unbound variable: I 21:37:23 that is exactly how I feel 21:38:57 -!- wingo [n=wingo@248.Red-79-156-146.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:38:59 -!- wingo_ is now known as wingo 21:41:34 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-247-204-102.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:42:37 -!- jao [n=jao@98.Red-83-42-110.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 21:43:42 -!- XTL [i=t6haha00@rhea.oamk.fi] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:43:42 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:43:42 -!- foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:43:42 -!- elf [i=elf@antenora.aculei.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:43:42 -!- Debolaz [n=debolaz@berle.cc] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:44:57 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:45:07 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 21:45:07 Debolaz [n=debolaz@berle.cc] has joined #scheme 21:45:07 foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 21:45:07 XTL [i=t6haha00@rhea.oamk.fi] has joined #scheme 21:45:07 elf [i=elf@antenora.aculei.net] has joined #scheme 21:45:21 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:45:23 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:46:46 sanguine1 [n=sanguine@116.197.145.49] has joined #scheme 21:55:09 -!- orgy` [n=ratm_@pD9FFE1C0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:55:09 -!- sanguinev [n=sanguine@116.197.145.49] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:58:12 -!- jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:00:35 attila_lendvai__ [n=ati@adsl-89-132-5-39.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #scheme 22:06:26 jao [n=jao@85.Red-83-33-177.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 22:14:16 jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.89] has joined #scheme 22:17:05 -!- attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@adsl-89-132-3-172.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:20:09 -!- underspecified_ [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:25:00 ttmrichter [n=ttmricht@59.172.143.54] has joined #scheme 22:42:52 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B05580D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:43:36 underspecified_ [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 22:46:11 Boo. 22:47:10 ARGH WIBBLE 22:47:21 You take perverse delight in sneaking up on people. 22:47:25 And Booh to you, pooh-pooh to you, and that's what I shall say! 22:47:39 Goo goo g'joob! 22:47:40 Goo goo g'joob? 22:47:42 JINX 22:47:42 hi:) 22:47:47 Koo koo ka choo! 22:48:21 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:48:55 Me to linguist: "Why are GGGJ and KKKC so similar?" Linguist: "Simon and McCartney were probably smoking the same brand of dope." 22:49:42 Am I supposed to be smoking something stronger to make `Simon' hash-collide with `Lennon'? 22:49:56 No. 22:49:58 -!- flaschenwein [n=olaf_rog@p5080A473.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has left #scheme 22:50:05 KKKC is from "Mrs. Robinson", ergo Simon 22:50:12 Oh. 22:50:30 Talk about a high-context conversation... 22:50:50 Maybe some day I'll see that film and follow the other half of the conversation. 22:50:55 And of course BtyPPty is Gilbert, who apparently used crank rather than dope. 22:51:05 It's in the song lyrics 22:51:29 BtyPPty? 22:51:32 Haven't listened to enough S&G to remember them. 22:51:38 Coo, coo, ca-choo, Mrs Robinson 22:51:38 Jesus loves you more than you will know (Wo, wo, wo) 22:51:38 God bless you please, Mrs. Robinson 22:51:38 Heaven holds a place for those who pray 22:51:38 (Hey, hey, hey...hey, hey, hey) 22:51:48 gnomon: Booh to you, pooh-pooh to you 22:52:04 I don't recognize the source of those lyrics. 22:52:21 http://math.boisestate.edu/GaS/patience/webop/pat15.html <-- relevant section of Gilbert and Sullivan's _Patience_ 22:52:35 Simon & Garfunkel, `Mrs Robinson', most well-known through the film _The Graduate_. 22:52:57 `Most well known', sans hyphen? `Best known'? 22:53:15 I meant that I didn't recognize the G&S bit. 22:53:28 Oh. 22:53:42 *gnomon* is ashamed 22:53:43 Apparently what I don't recognize is the thread of conversation. 22:53:49 -!- zedstar [n=john@fsf/member/zedstar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:53:52 What don't you recognize, jcowan? 22:54:28 Martian independence. 22:54:41 I don't recognize why any of you should be confused by all these transparent allusions. 22:54:45 Bloody rebels. 22:54:56 By the way, were you made aware, gnomon, of the solution to the Python's Sassoon problem? 22:55:01 No, no, I'm in favor of Martian independence. Also NYC independence. 22:55:32 (Ceci n'est pas une allusion.) 22:55:58 Riastradh, I did not know that Python had a Sassoon, let alone that there was a problem with it, nor that said problem had been solved! Do tell, sir. 22:56:50 (Celles-la ne sont pas allusions du tout; ce sont references!) 22:57:12 I am sure that jcowan recalls the precise nature of the problem better than I. 22:57:17 New York Times interviewer: Whose work have you been influenced by? 22:57:17 Monty Python #1: I've been influenced by the work of Albert Gore. 22:57:17 [Not the current U.S. presidential candidate, but his father.] 22:57:17 Monty Python #2: I've been influenced by the work of Gore Vidal. 22:57:17 Monty Python #3: I've been influenced by the work of Vidal Sassoon. 22:57:18 It was he who made me aware of the solution, furthermore. 22:57:18 Monty Python #4: 22:57:44 Hah! 22:57:53 Please do share the solution! 22:58:30 The fourth Python has to say he was influenced by the work of Sassoon David Sassoon. 22:58:36 -!- ikaros_ [n=ikaros@e176230175.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Leave the magic to Houdini"] 22:58:42 And that will handle any number of further Pythons, to boot. 22:58:48 Poh, that merely delays the inevitable! 22:58:48 22:59:19 (As far as I know, jcowan did not invent that Wikipedia article merely to claim a solution to the problem, although I don't have much evidence to the contrary.) 22:59:26 Well. If there are only four Pythons, I suppose that's a solution, unless they continue all the way 'round. 22:59:41 there are 4? 22:59:44 *gnomon* investigates the edit history of the page 22:59:45 that's already too many 22:59:48 There were only 4 in teh U.S. at the time. 22:59:56 though there were 6 in Toto, Kan. 23:00:15 oh I thought you were talking about the programming language not the snake 23:00:27 I am not talking about the programming language or the snake. 23:00:32 oh 23:00:38 even better 23:01:12 *jcowan* notes that the Linnaean name of the Tokay gecko is, un-mnemonically, Gekko gecko. 23:02:22 It's a good thing that the Gekko gecko is not the Geico spokesmascot. 23:02:57 Of course, that whole remark is merely an excuse to say "Geico Gekko gecko" in conversation. 23:03:01 It's supposedly called the Tokay gecko because its cry sounds like "to-kay! to-kay!", though the recordings I have heard sound much more like "fuck-you! fuck-you!" 23:03:07 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 23:03:32 ...that interpretation makes it an even better choice as a mascot for an insurance company. 23:03:35 *rimshot* 23:04:07 *jcowan* applauds. 23:04:28 But what do you mean by "merely delays the inevitable"? 23:05:00 The fifth Python merely has to say he was influenced by the work of Sassoon David Sassoon, and so on forever. 23:05:26 The inevitable conclusion of forever? 23:05:41 Forever is no more a conclusion than (affine) infinity is a number. 23:06:18 Were I cleverer I might attempt a pun with infine affinities, but I'm too hungry for that now. 23:07:39 Go enjoy your elective affinities, then. 23:08:07 -!- ken-p [n=ken-p@84.92.70.37] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:08:23 How fares Blesity? 23:09:28 I've started working on the CL bootstrap implementation 23:10:39 Still hung up on the mapping of Java methods to generic functions 23:10:55 and what package those generic functions should be placed into, since Java doesn't provide a unique answer. 23:11:27 Why must there be a unique answer? 23:12:22 The Java standard library has 91 methods named "close" which differ in the receiver class. I don't know offhand what packages those 91 methods belong to, but surely more than one. 23:12:37 How do methods belong to classes? 23:12:39 ...er, to packages? 23:13:24 A method belongs to a class iff the class is the class-specifier of its first argument. A class belongs to a package by declaration. 23:14:58 Perhaps we ought to clarify the terminology by prefixing `CL' or `Java' to any shared terms. 23:15:02 Here's what I meant to ask: 23:15:05 Kusanagi [n=Lernaean@24-107-112-153.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 23:15:06 How do Java methods belong to CL packages? 23:15:19 But perhaps I was confused by the statement to which I was responding with the question. 23:16:20 Either there must be a declaration for each Java method to be used what CL package it is to belong to, or the implementation must be able to assign it to a package based on some rule. 23:16:45 Why must Java methods belong to CL packages? 23:17:26 it's actually that Java methods must belong to generic functions (which are defined in CL packages) 23:17:42 Yes, but a generic function may be named by multiple symbols, each with different home packages. 23:17:59 Eh? How? 23:18:13 (setf (fdefinition 'FOO) (fdefinition 'BAR)) 23:18:28 Ah. 23:19:01 ISLisp does not provide anything like fdefinition: indeed, identifiers are not represented by symbols at all in Blesity. 23:20:20 Is the partial function from symbols to generic procedures injective in ISLisp? 23:20:38 I forget what "injective" means. 23:20:44 (in an ISLisp compilation environment) 23:21:09 f injective means that f(x) = f(y) implies x = y, or x =/= y implies f(x) =/= f(y). 23:21:38 For any generic procedure, is there exactly one symbol that names it? 23:21:43 Yes. 23:21:51 And (hitherto) vice versa 23:22:09 Any symbol names exactly one generic procedure?? 23:22:14 Not merely at most one? 23:22:56 No, I mean that for each symbol, there is at most one generic function that it names -- no local generic fns. 23:23:13 OK. 23:23:42 I ahve to leave, but feel free to type yoru thoughts. 23:24:25 One heuristic that jumps to mind is introducing a CL generic for the highest Java class that introduces any Java method in a Java class hierarchy. 23:26:19 For interfaces the heuristic is trickier, because there is a heterarchy, not a hierarchy, so there isn't always a highest Java interface that introduces any Java method in the Java interface heterarchy. 23:27:37 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:32:49 -!- attila_lendvai__ [n=ati@adsl-89-132-5-39.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:34:57 raikov [n=igr@60.32.127.43] has joined #scheme 23:36:16 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@92.36.129.1] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:36:57 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:52:37 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:53:26 -!- CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@75.68.42.94] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:58:46 -!- raikov [n=igr@60.32.127.43] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]