00:00:25 ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has joined #scheme 00:00:53 rudybot__: nick rudybot 00:00:54 offby1: eh? Try "rudybot__: help". 00:01:28 rudybot__: nick rudybot 00:01:28 -!- rudybot__ is now known as rudybot 00:01:35 damned kids 00:03:43 acarrico [n=acarrico@pppoe-68-142-45-197.gmavt.net] has joined #scheme 00:20:44 orgy_ [n=ratm_@pD9FFD363.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 00:37:24 -!- orgy` [n=ratm_@pD9FFF04E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 00:39:37 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:46:49 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@92.36.175.208] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:52:13 -!- jao` [n=jao@147.Red-81-32-186.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:56:57 -!- Guest17659 [n=m@dslb-088-064-133-241.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:57:01 jao [n=jao@147.Red-81-32-186.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 01:00:41 -!- jao [n=jao@147.Red-81-32-186.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:02:29 saccade [n=saccade@105.suh114.nycm.n54ny31ur.dsl.att.net] has joined #scheme 01:05:04 jao [n=jao@147.Red-81-32-186.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 01:16:12 -!- Elly [n=elly@unaffiliated/elly] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:16:13 -!- kanru [n=kanru@61.228.154.225] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:16:34 Elly [n=elly@unaffiliated/elly] has joined #scheme 01:22:20 bsmntbombdood [n=gavin@97-118-129-241.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 01:25:26 dharmatech [n=root@97.116.40.236] has joined #scheme 01:27:13 -!- orgy_ [n=ratm_@pD9FFD363.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:27:26 jao, You added PLT support to geiser! Your heresey has been noted... ;-) 01:27:31 (j/k) 01:29:34 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@89.102.208.138] has quit [] 01:33:13 xwl [n=user@114.245.139.111] has joined #scheme 01:37:29 geiser? 01:38:57 Is that a portmanteau between geyser and geisha? :-P 01:39:09 Oh hey eli! 01:39:23 dharmatech: GOod morning. 01:39:37 So I'm grepping and grepping and I can't find it. 01:40:06 -!- saccade [n=saccade@105.suh114.nycm.n54ny31ur.dsl.att.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:40:13 eli, It's a fancy Scheme mode for Emacs. 01:40:32 jao` [n=jao@175.Red-79-155-245.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 01:40:38 Yeah, that much I figured. 01:40:41 Speak of the devil! 01:40:53 Here: http://git.hacks-galore.org/jao/geiser.git/description 01:41:01 Hi jao! We were just talking about geiser. :-) 01:41:27 According to middle-eastern superstition this means that you'll have a long life. Or something. 01:41:36 (you = jao) 01:41:42 i'm not middle-eastern 01:41:49 eli, Cuz we're talking about him? 01:42:08 eli, Good morning eh? Are you near the middle east? :-) 01:42:38 dharmatech: Yeah, when you talk about someone he comes to your home, or call you, or something like that. I don't know if at its origin it applied to IRC appearances too. 01:43:06 [I'm not near the middle east, but I came from there.] 01:43:58 synthase [n=synthase@c-68-63-19-212.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:44:27 *jao`* cheers up 01:45:03 hi dharmatech, eli 01:45:05 -!- jao [n=jao@147.Red-81-32-186.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:47:20 jao`: So, where can I see this fanciness? 01:48:16 jao` is very brave... I mean, writing cool Emacs stuff for Factor is a joy. Not so much for the reflection-poor state of many Schemes. 01:48:44 I wonder why so many implementors have shunned deep introspection. 01:49:00 Perhaps it really does mess with semantics way too much? 01:49:10 eep introspection? 01:49:46 I mean... if they couldn't agree on sane repl semantics... what are the chances that they'll get into fancier things. 01:49:57 dharmatech: That depends on what exactly you want to get from it. At the extreme cases it can interfere with performance, semantics, and a bunch of other things. 01:50:27 (The repl suffers from a number of very fundamental problems.) 01:50:42 geckosenator your name is super cool. I think of reptilian illuminati agents in our government! ;-) 01:50:50 yeah 01:51:19 Now we just need chupacabra and shadow-person to show up. 01:52:40 jao [n=jao@15.Red-83-42-108.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 01:56:03 just for the record, the plt stuff is in the 'devel' branch 01:56:44 *jao* reads the logs 01:57:11 greetings, chupacabra! 01:57:40 cattle mutilation ftw! 01:57:57 eli: in the devel branch of the repo. it's still work in progress, but things like completion or M-. work quite well 01:58:08 I'm not sure that that is in fact tw :P 01:59:22 eli: showing formals of procedure/syntax at point is a bit clunky, though 02:00:10 I'm not familiar with Chez... I just noticed the other day that it's (and Ikarus's) modules are a totally separate concept from R6RS libraries... I like those module thingies... 02:00:36 Whereas, aren't the old PLT modules basically close to R6RS libraries? 02:00:55 dharmatech: guile is very good at introspection, and i'm discovering that one can get a long way with PLT 02:01:10 jao, Yeah, PLT has some cool stuff in it. 02:01:32 jao: My question is more basic -- how do I get to see your package? (I know nearly nothing about git repositories, so that doesn't help much.) 02:01:48 *Elly* giggles and quotes eli out of context 02:02:11 Yikes! 02:02:21 (I was quoted?) 02:02:28 'eli :O 02:03:03 dharmatech: R6RS libraries are sort-of kind-of very roughly similar to PLT modules. But there are some significant changes, including plenty of flammable materials. 02:03:33 I like PLT modules 02:03:43 eli, It seems that PLT doesn't have something like Chez modules eh? 02:04:24 -!- jao` [n=jao@175.Red-79-155-245.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:04:26 -!- jao [n=jao@15.Red-83-42-108.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:04:33 dharmatech: Are you talking about the things that can be nested, and can be opened in any scope like inside a function etc? 02:04:55 eli, Something like that. It's like named scopes which can be injected into other scopes. 02:05:04 jao [n=jao@7.Red-79-156-140.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 02:05:44 dharmatech: In that case, the PLT term is not module (of course) but `package' -- http://docs.plt-scheme.org/reference/package.html 02:05:52 eli, Ah cool! 02:06:23 eli: you can browse the code at http://git.hacks-galore.org/gitweb/jao?p=geiser.git;a=shortlog;h=refs/heads/devel 02:06:29 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/ol9u84 02:06:38 (sorry, my internet connection is playing games) 02:08:44 jao, Have you heard if Guile is gonna shoot for R6RS compliance? It looks like they wanna at least adhere to parts of it. 02:08:54 Oh! And I finally got the pun!!! 02:09:01 Guile sounds like Guy L. 02:09:02 !!! 02:09:47 So we need to have Cherry Scheme 02:10:14 jao, There I go, naming things again ;-) 02:10:17 dharmatech: andy has r6rs on his radar, yes 02:10:51 dharmatech: well, in this case you rediscovered an intended pun :) 02:11:55 saccade [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-74-28.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 02:11:56 jao: I'll have a look at this later, 02:12:02 -!- jao [n=jao@7.Red-79-156-140.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:12:11 *eli* sighs 02:12:19 foof, Are you gonna boycott The future RNRSs as long as they have syntax-case? :-) 02:13:14 I admire the chutzpah of the Chicken team for really going their own way. 02:14:09 rudybot: later tell jao: I didn't realize that you were shooting for a general scheme interface -- in this case you should also have a look at http://misc.barzilay.org/interactive.ss -- it's a collection of stuff I'm using in mzscheme, with many features that you'll probably be interested in. 02:14:09 minion: memo for jao:: eli told me to tell you: I didn't realize that you were shooting for a general scheme interface -- in this case you should also have a look at http://misc.barzilay.org/interactive.ss -- it's a collection of stuff I'm using in mzscheme, with many features that you'll probably be interested in. 02:14:09 Remembered. I'll tell jao: when he/she/it next speaks. 02:14:37 dharmatech: Their own way or not -- the bottom line is that r6rs has done its job even for chicken. 02:15:06 eli, Eh... whadya mean "even for chicken"? 02:15:35 dharmatech: Probably the main contribution of r6rs is making it expected of scheme systems to have a good module system -- one that interacts well with syntax. 02:15:54 And chicken does have that now, in some form. 02:16:08 jao [n=jao@54.Red-83-36-222.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 02:16:21 In other words, the "I just want defmacro" approach is no longer popular. 02:16:55 dharmatech: If they at least change the syntax to _allow_ other macro systems I'll compromise. 02:17:14 eli, Ah. Well, one of the steering committee members still offers syntax-case as a second-class citizen. :-) 02:17:28 foof, That would be wonderful... 02:17:44 foof, Mandating syntax-case seems er... we'll that took chutzpah too. :-) 02:18:36 foof, Do you think there could be a practical design which would allow for pluggable macro systems? 02:18:56 Perhaps the standard will evolve in that direction. 02:19:38 dharmatech: Second-class citizen or not -- it doesn't matter as long as it's there, and as long as it does what it's supposed to do. (That is: stuff that no `defmacro' can ever do.) 02:19:50 eli, yep 02:20:14 eli: thank you for taking a look when you can; comments and ideas welcome. and yes, i'm already an interactive.ss user :) 02:20:15 jao, memo from rudybot: eli told me to tell you: I didn't realize that you were shooting for a general scheme interface -- in this case you should also have a look at http://misc.barzilay.org/interactive.ss -- it's a collection of stuff I'm using in mzscheme, with many features that you'll probably be interested in. 02:20:38 And BTW, there are some things that `syntax-case'-style macros can express that cannot be done with er or sc or whatever. (But I don't know the details, they were floating around here a while agi.) 02:20:42 s/agi/ago/ 02:21:26 eli, Well yeah, for example a symbol can expand into a function call. Which is interesting. 02:21:40 jao: BTW, it would help to have some quick-start description of what it can do, but I'll deal with that... 02:21:46 I hacked that up one time. I.e. p.x expanded into (point-x p). 02:22:04 eli, Are you still an emacs user? 02:22:17 dharmatech: I don't think that that was the difference. At least there's nothing in `syntax-case' that makes identifier-macros possible. 02:22:28 Yes, I'm using Emacs. 02:22:54 jao, I'm mainly on Ypsilon and Ikarus these days, so I'm waiting for support for those. 8-) But I check out the geiser code periodically anyway. 02:22:55 (I've probably been using Emacs longer than some of the people here have been alive...) 02:23:32 eli, Does MF poke fun at you for this? :-) 02:24:01 *Elly* is using vim :P 02:24:06 eli: how long have you been using emacs? 02:24:08 I've seen him rant against emacs a few times. :-) 02:24:38 Dybvig and Ghuloum both use vim to hack Scheme. 02:24:43 Or at least some vi-like. 02:24:52 eli: doesn't the README help? 02:24:57 And I guess Sitaram too? 02:26:10 foof, Is chibi playing with glenda yet? 02:26:59 dharmatech: last time i checked, the amount of metadata offered by ypsilon and ikarus was disheartening 02:27:27 jao, Ah... 02:28:09 dharmatech: not yet, I'm writing a gc 02:28:48 dharmatech: Wow... I think that says a lot about Chez and Ikarus :o 02:28:53 contest... who here has run the oldest implementation? MacScheme MacGambit? I think I ran PCSCHEME on an old DOS system once. So there, that's my entry. 02:29:36 Hmmm... I guess Riastradh has run T. 02:29:58 Anyone who has run rabbit would win... 02:31:11 foof, What aspects of what Plan 9 offers do you think will be interesting for Scheme to interface with? 02:32:03 I'm going to offer a namespace interface, and probably a GUI. 02:32:18 But mostly I think it'll be nice to just run a clean simple Scheme on a clean simple OS. 02:32:33 Perhaps chibi on minix would also be a cool experiment. 02:32:53 foof, yeah, it's a great project 02:33:10 Yeah, then maybe I can get funding from the Dutch gov't! :) 02:33:41 foof, Do you run Plan 9 on bare metal? 02:33:57 do you have bare metal that Plan 9 runs on? 02:34:05 actually, *I* have bare metal plan 9 might run on! 02:34:22 I've done it a bunch of times, but never made it my primary workspace. 02:34:27 Not at the moment, I use qemu and 9vx. 02:34:35 it runs on my laptop except for wireless and video drivers 02:34:48 video drivers require more love from nvidia, and wireless drivers... b44 *might* work now 02:35:11 -!- jao [n=jao@54.Red-83-36-222.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:36:42 if I had a tumor I'd name it Broadcom 02:37:07 It's not a tumor! 02:37:27 foof: I am the hacker's total lack of surprise 02:38:20 Elly: Since around 1991-2 02:38:30 eli: you're nearly older than me :O 02:38:32 jao: It does, but there's nothing like a "guided tour through the stuff you can do with it". 02:38:37 *Elly* just celebrated her 20th birthday 02:38:55 dharmatech: There are two MFs in PLT, but the one you're referring to has criticism against Emacs that comes from a very long history of using it (and since DrScheme is not a generic editor, he still is using it) 02:39:00 dharmatech: and yes, Dorai likes vim, IIRC 02:39:16 Elly: ThereYouGo... 02:39:26 jao [n=jao@71.Red-79-156-141.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 02:39:28 er, your use of emacs is nearly older than me, rather 02:39:45 eli, What!!! MF still uses Emacs! Wow... I guess not for Scheme? Or is that a dark secret. ;-) 02:40:00 Elly: ha! 02:40:09 *offby1* _knows_ he was using Emacs in 1985 02:40:17 offby1: wow :P 02:40:18 on "Twenex". 02:40:29 the first computer I used was running DOS 6.22 02:40:32 yes, most of us still rode horses to work in those days 02:40:40 what's wrong with Emacs all of a sudden? 02:40:40 oh my 02:40:45 I had an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time 02:40:56 that's back in recently, actually 02:40:59 minion: offby1++ 02:40:59 All of a sudden? Emacs has been crap for decades now! 02:40:59 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``offby1++''. 02:41:03 :( 02:41:16 Adamant: heh? 02:41:21 PLTs war againt Emacs. You are either with us, or you are with the Emacsen. 02:41:27 get offa my lawn 02:41:32 *Elly* uses vim and PLT :) 02:41:33 *offby1* hurls his dentures at mbishop 02:41:43 offby1: just giving you karma for the onion ref 02:41:44 *foof* is with himself 02:41:58 foof: you take that back :P 02:42:14 yeah, what with all this talk of packages... 02:42:15 now where was I ... 02:42:46 dharmatech: No, not for scheme, and I don't think it's a dark secret -- emacs is great for a number of things, besides it's many diseases. 02:43:24 eli, His big argument against Emacs is that the default Scheme mode doesn't offer a "transparent repl" no? That could be cooked up eh? 02:43:34 offby1: In my case, it was camels that we rode.... 02:43:41 skin diseases (emacszema) 02:43:46 At least he views it as not good for beginners in his classes. 02:43:50 eli: back before the Suez canal 02:44:11 -!- jao [n=jao@71.Red-79-156-141.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:44:25 there's no way you're THAT old :O 02:45:40 offby1: Well, back before 1982 we were actually living in a Real Desert (TM) -- so camels weren't something more exciting then, say, a squirrel is in these parts. 02:46:38 *mbishop* has a sizable collection of used dentures for sale 02:47:19 dharmatech: Well, if you read this argument (in many places) you'll see that he refers to using Emacs to developing scheme code, and often resorting to restarting the scheme process -- in the extreme case restarting it for every interaction. 02:48:07 dharmatech: In any case, that's *not* an argument against Emacs, but an argument against the particular long-lived-repl-interaction that is popular with Emacs users. 02:48:14 In cases where I need to restart to verify things, I just make a unit test suite. 02:48:47 Otherwise, I'm often working with enough state that it takes too much time to rebuild all the state after restarting. 02:48:52 dharmatech: There's no reason why you couldn't do DrScheme-style interaction within Emacs -- and with the PLT sandbox library it's even easy. 02:50:07 foof: You have a point if it takes too much cpu time to rebuild the satte. But if it's human time, then this means that you're not doing your testing (or your development) properly. 02:50:25 CPU time. Building dictionaries and large internal data structures and such. 02:50:58 That's why there's a Gauche procedure (reload-modified-modules) that reloads any modules that have changed on disk while leaving non-procedure variables intact. 02:51:08 Y'all need to get yer scheme hacks into the Emacs mainline... 02:51:13 (which is risky but handy) 02:51:18 scheme-complete and paredit would be cool 02:52:07 tjafk1 [n=timj@e176193116.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 02:53:04 mbishop: you know I reserve the good ones for myself. 02:54:32 that sounds almost like defvar vs defparameter 02:55:17 So... the reason there are so many research grade Scheme implementations is because folks are trying out language experiments. Most of the experiments don't go mainline, but a few do. For example, PLTs work on modules has gone mainstream. 02:55:20 So... 02:55:41 eli, What other features unique to PLT do you think are serious candidates for adoption by the wider community? 02:55:56 eli, For example, I wouldn't expect them to push the object system. But maybe other things. 02:56:04 foof: That's reasonable (a long repl for that) -- I also have a reload-module thing in plt, btw. But I wouldn't risk such a distinction between functions and other values -- that sounds way too hacky (especially since my "values" are often functions). 02:56:45 Syntax-case is another "research success story"; in this case from IU. 02:56:55 dharmatech: I don't know. The object system is definitely not going to go into any standard in the near future. 02:57:18 offby1: throw out your gold teeth, and see how they roll 02:57:18 dharmatech: My guess would be `#%app' and such, and well-behaved reader macros. 02:57:47 eli, Ah yeah... at least I saw Aziz mention that he's thinking of adding #%app to Ikarus. I was surprised! 02:58:13 eli, Yes... reader macros would be good. 02:58:44 Eventually I'd like for the [] synonyms for () to go away and perhaps to being programmable via reader macros. 03:00:26 jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-18.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:00:53 eli, Are you up to speed on Aziz's implicit phasing stuff for libraries? How do the PLT folks feel about it? 03:01:05 in vim, how do I make it so a key mapping is only active in a certain syntax mode? 03:01:17 *jcowan* unvanishes. 03:02:28 dharmatech: Yes, `#%app' and friends are relatively easy to add, and they make a considerable improvement to the expressiveness of the language. 03:02:58 *offby1* mumbles happily 03:03:08 dharmatech: And the situation with reader macros in PLT right now is that it's very easy to make [] be the same as () using a reader macro -- or, in PLT's case, it's very easy to make [] not be the same as (). 03:03:22 jcowan, So you and phil were discussing big vs small list libraries... I agree that the coverage of SRFI-1 is great to have. But it would also be nice if it were parceled out into smaller sub-libraries. For example, (lists sets) (lists alists) etc... 03:03:37 jcowan, I think that would make folks like phil happy. 03:03:39 dharmatech: As for the implicit phasing, I don't think that there's anyone on the plt side who considers it even remotely usefule. 03:03:56 eli, Yikes! That's harsh dude... 03:04:11 Which part? 03:04:32 Eh... the not "even remotely usefule" part. 03:06:33 dharmatech: Well, on one hand, we have been using our explicit phases long enough for them to not be a problem; long enough to appreciate catching the kind of bugs that it catches; and in some cases (mine, for example), I really do use the separate semantics for separate phases very often. (Specifically, my syntax level is often plain (plt) scheme, and my run-time level is often very differeny from scheme.) 03:08:03 -!- bsmntbombdood [n=gavin@97-118-129-241.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:08:35 bsmntbombdood [n=gavin@97-118-129-241.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 03:08:48 -!- bsmntbombdood [n=gavin@97-118-129-241.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:09:17 bsmntbombdood [n=gavin@97-118-129-241.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 03:09:27 -!- tjafk2 [n=timj@e176209216.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:09:40 -!- bsmntbombdood [n=gavin@97-118-129-241.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:10:03 `Not remotely useful' isn't the only issue -- it actively masks legitimate errors and inhibits legitimate and intentional separation of names' meanings between phases. 03:10:21 dharmatech: That probably works for lists, but some things are just too deeply intertwingled to neatly partition that way, esp. if they share data structure types 03:11:55 jcowan, Well sure. But the other big standard srfis like vectors, strings, chars, etc could also be organized this way (and probably will be once libraries are more widespread). 03:12:50 Riastradh: That's a concise way to say what I was trying to say (in "bugs that it catches" and "separate semantics for separate"). 03:13:27 Does anybody know if Aziz's thesis is available? (I think on this subject) 03:14:33 bsmntbombdood_ [n=gavin@97-118-129-241.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 03:16:25 gotta run... latar 03:16:28 -!- dharmatech [n=root@97.116.40.236] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:16:50 What bugs does it catch? What can you do w/ explicit phasing that you can't do w/ implicit phasing? 03:17:39 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 03:21:08 I don't understand how implicit phasing actually works. 03:21:47 foof: It catches bugs where implicit phases gave you a binding you shouldn't have. In the Ikarus repl this can lead to real bugs (since it can break phases and get you macros that depend on runtime values), and when you compile code you'll just be missing a binding in some confusing way because it decided to put your binding in one level instead of another. 03:22:02 I mean, somewhere you have to ground out on functions which are implemented only using either ground syntax or syntax that's defined using only ground procedures. 03:22:14 eli: Can you give a short example? 03:22:37 foof: Something that came up on the plt list recently -- see the post at http://article.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.scheme.plt/33207 03:23:25 (The confusion there is not related to `syntax-case', and with implicit phases my guess is that it would be much more confuisng.) 03:23:36 That's using explicit phasing (define-for-syntax). 03:23:55 (The confusion there is not related to `define-for-syntax', and with implicit phases my guess is that it would be much more confuisng.) 03:24:55 To me, implicit phasing means make syntax and imported values available at both expand time and runtime (unless you can prove it's not used in one or the other, and can then optimize it out). 03:25:00 Define-for-syntax is still partly implicit. 03:25:04 Thus that example would just work. 03:25:07 jcowan: There is no grounding issues. 03:25:12 How not? 03:25:15 s/ues/ue/ 03:26:05 Consider two low-level macros each of which uses the other in its expansion code, for example. Without explicit phasing, you are screwed. 03:26:05 foof: No, they're not available at *both* the syntax level and the runtime level. (In Ikarus they are, actually, but only at the repl, not when code is compiled.) 03:26:16 That's what I just said. 03:26:49 Or rather, you are always screwed. 03:26:55 foof: The compiler semantics in ikarus is the "right one". 03:27:12 But you can escape the shaft by creating a ground definition of one macro or the other that is not circular. 03:27:22 I'm just asking for an example where implicit phasing causes a bug. 03:27:35 jcowan: Are you talking about two macros that *expand* one to the other or that each *uses* the other. 03:27:50 Uses the other. 03:28:00 That's impossible. 03:28:10 jcowan: In that case, that is not possible with either explicit or implicit phases. 03:28:10 Unless you use explicit phasing to break the loop. 03:28:22 No, even with explicit phasing it's impossible. 03:28:35 Oh, okay, right, it is. 03:28:54 But only because there is no way to pre-declare a macro as a macro 03:28:57 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-143-250.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 03:29:19 without defining it too. 03:29:45 foof: I can't point at some concrete example of a bug. I'm not using an implicit phasing system, so any bug I can come up with you'll be able to blame me for a cooked example. 03:30:19 After all, if define-before-use were imposed on functions, we couldn't have recursive functions either; but because we can declae them withotu defining them, we escape the paradox. 03:30:21 You did make the claim, though... 03:30:29 Cooked is fine, I just can't think of any example. 03:31:09 OK, I'll finish some cooking (the usual kind), and then I'll cook some of the code kind. 03:32:01 After all, there is nothing actually paradoxical about letrec-syntax, provided of course that there is no actual infinite loop (that is, the macros recurse on each other only finitely many times) 03:35:51 Or am I talking out of my ass altogether? 03:35:54 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:36:11 eww 03:36:28 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 03:36:35 *foof* knew a man who taught his ass to talk 03:36:46 did it say 'I love you'? 03:36:47 I can make fart sounds with my mouth. 03:36:48 *offby1* nods gravely 03:38:07 But none of you are Le Le Pétomane. --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Petomane 03:38:47 The climax of his act however involved him farting his impression of the 1906 San Francisco earthquake. 03:38:51 s/Le Le/Le/ 03:39:04 *offby1* trembles 03:39:16 i saw a guy on youtube fart his impression of the chicago fire 03:39:26 I read a book once about a guy who rode a horse 03:39:28 *offby1* glances around nervously. 03:39:47 camels, horses, asses--it's a veritable zoo in here 03:40:27 horse's ass, too 03:40:33 *offby1* gestures vaguely 03:40:53 incubot: I want to be your beast of burden 03:40:56 Error: invalid context for definition (define number-of-the-beast 666) 03:41:44 The greatest magic act ever performed involved the magician calling up a volunteer from the audience to assist in a sawing-a-person-in-half trick When the trick was over, the volunteer walked up the aisle back toward his seat. 03:42:34 But before he could reach it, the volunteer *fell apart*. The head, hands, and torso crawled away toward the seat, while the legs continued up the aisle and out of the theatre. 03:42:49 I'll never be your beast of burden. 03:42:57 :( 03:43:05 he's walked for miles -- his feet are hurting 03:43:28 why are all the good ones always taken 03:43:33 jcowan: what happened to him then? 03:43:47 People screamed in horror and rushed for the box office, demanding their money back, or just outside the theatre in a panic. The show was over. 03:43:51 That's not sawing in half... some people just can't do math :/ 03:43:53 The effect was never performed again. 03:44:04 s/legs/abdomen and legs 03:45:34 and you know who that man was ... ? 03:45:45 santa? 03:45:48 I don't remember his name, no. 03:45:55 But I know how the trick was done. 03:46:10 One day, back in 1896, I was crossing over to Jersey on the ferry, and as we pulled out, there was another ferry pulling in, and on it there was a girl waiting to get off. A white dress she had on. She was carrying a white parasol. I only saw her for one second. She didn't see me at all, but I'll bet a month hasn't gone by since that I haven't thought of that girl. 03:46:48 "... and I jumped in the icy cold water, and at that moment, it was the first time in two years that my teeth didn't hurt." 03:47:30 well done sir 03:49:05 The lower half was a dwarf holding on with his arms to the man playing the upper half, who had no legs as a result of a birth defect. 03:49:23 offby1: I thought you were doing a performance of Flower Drum Song by Grandpa Simpson 03:49:31 There had been a switch done on stage, however. 03:49:49 The original volunteer was the legless man's normal identical twin brother. 03:51:44 zbigniew: No, he was playing Citizen Offby1. 03:53:07 Citizen Offby1, also known as 'Citizen Lame' 03:53:29 now I want to watch Citizen Kane again 03:53:32 offby1 was also responsible for HAL -> IBM 03:53:40 and VMS -> WNT? 03:57:11 No, that was Douglas Crockford. 03:57:44 once, offby1 accidentally lowercased (+ 1 2) to HK@Q@RI, the rascal 03:58:24 That's some bad keyboard, Harry. 03:58:53 If you drop a phonograph needle on offby1's nipple, it plays the Beach Boys' Pet Sounds. 03:59:00 -!- luz [n=davids@189.122.121.232] has quit ["Client exiting"] 04:05:20 foof: Sorry, both kinds of cooking took more time than I thought. 04:05:53 foof: http://tmp.barzilay.org/ikarus -- but I'm convinced that Riastradh can come up with better examples. 04:18:01 -!- mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:41:16 raikov [n=igr@134.74.145.122.ap.yournet.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 04:51:41 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-18.nyc.res.rr.com] has left #scheme 04:56:36 -!- meanburrito920_ [n=John@76-217-6-100.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["has been attacked by a grue"] 05:07:01 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-166-19.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 05:07:47 -!- hosh [n=hosh@c-24-30-97-247.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:08:44 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@ppp-71-139-37-78.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:10:17 dmoerner [n=dmr@ppp-71-139-37-78.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 05:17:21 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-217.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:17:22 -!- mogunus [n=user@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:18:16 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:26:33 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 05:29:31 incubot: #scheme is like a twisty maze of non sequiturs, all different 05:29:34 is there a twisty maze of something-appropriately-Shakespearean, all alike? 05:29:46 YOU DID IT AGAIN 05:30:18 incubot is clearly sentient 05:38:19 -!- ken-p [n=unknown@84.92.70.37] has quit [Success] 05:41:51 fun for Sussman and Gabriel fans' 05:41:55 http://blog.jaoo.dk/2008/11/21/art-and-code-obscure-or-beautiful-code/ 05:49:06 -!- xwl [n=user@114.245.139.111] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:01:53 wy [n=wy@c-24-16-38-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:16:59 -!- jedc [n=lore17@c-98-232-225-102.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:26:28 -!- bsmntbombdood_ [n=gavin@97-118-129-241.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:34:02 wy_ [i=wy@156.56.192.126] has joined #scheme 06:36:13 wy__ [n=wy@c-24-16-38-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:36:28 -!- wy__ [n=wy@c-24-16-38-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:36:38 wy__ [n=wy@c-24-16-38-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:37:11 -!- raikov [n=igr@134.74.145.122.ap.yournet.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:38:02 raikov [n=igr@134.74.145.122.ap.yournet.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 06:45:07 -!- wy_ [i=wy@156.56.192.126] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 06:53:09 -!- wy [n=wy@c-24-16-38-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:58:41 -!- mokogobo [n=mokogobo@pcp075595pcs.unl.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:00:07 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Client Quit] 07:01:17 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #scheme 07:05:37 -!- wy__ [n=wy@c-24-16-38-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:17:20 eli: that last example is not valid, x.scm does not even contain a definition for x 07:17:35 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@ppp-71-139-37-78.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit ["leaving"] 07:18:58 the second last example is printing 2 1's, im not sure what I am suppose to guess, as that is what I expect. 07:21:01 leppie: The last example is valid, modulo the copy-paste typo of the definition. 07:22:00 ok 07:22:17 The second to last is something that I think will confuse anyone who *doesn't* know how ikarus does things. 07:22:43 And even if you do know why it prints `11' first and `1' next, that still doesn't explain the last one. 07:22:51 but then we are dealing with a library with no exports 07:23:25 Huh? Which library there doesn't have any exports? 07:23:49 foo has no definitons that are exported i meant. 07:24:19 Right -- it *does* have exports, and it *is* imported. 07:24:23 but yes, that could be surprising 07:26:59 the question is, how often will that happen, and when it does, how hard will it be for you not to add a definition 07:28:47 *leppie* tries to stay out of this debate :) 07:29:18 im very undecided about which one i prefer 07:29:23 -!- saccade [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-74-28.dyn.mit.edu] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 07:29:51 rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #scheme 07:32:15 dzhus [n=sphinx@93-81-157-130.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 07:32:35 leppie: The first examples are more important. They might seem obvious to someone who knows about writing macros -- but the point is what happens when a *newbie* is making these mistakes. In PLT, you get an extra layer of protection, but Ikarus will "helpfully" guess a meaning for you (and guess wrongly in these cases). 07:33:35 As for the last two, I find that very confusing, and I won't comment on Aziz's opinion to avoid the debate you're trying to avoid. 07:37:03 -!- Judofyr [n=Judofyr@c349BBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:45:01 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl481.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [] 07:49:48 -!- kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:00:21 saccade [n=saccade@65.78.24.47] has joined #scheme 08:07:52 npe [n=npe@91.181.18.26] has joined #scheme 08:14:28 ok 1st example is obvious, count! is only called once, 2nd example it's called twice. I dont understand why there should be different implementation behaviour here. 08:16:59 -!- eli is now known as macro-n00b 08:17:14 Why is count! called only once in the first example? 08:17:29 its called once during expansion 08:17:48 I wanted to have a macro that expands to count!, so the result of the macro should be called twice, no? 08:18:00 so (define (foo) 1) is the result 08:18:17 So macros are broken in scheme. 08:18:38 I want real macros -- I want the result to be count!. 08:19:13 -!- macro-n00b is now known as eli 08:19:14 but the 2nd example does that. I am really confused 08:19:43 I'm two different newbies in these examples, of course -- each one making a different mistake. 08:20:00 ok 08:20:05 i understand :) 08:20:27 In the first one, you're explanation should have been telling me about the difference between (count!) and (syntax (count!)). 08:20:29 -!- synthase [n=synthase@c-68-63-19-212.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:20:49 i didnt think I had to explain to you :p 08:21:07 [Yeah, sorry about the lame joke.] 08:21:20 As a macro newbie, the difference between the two is huge -- and internalizing it is crucial for writing macros. 08:21:56 In PLT, you must admit the difference right in the way that you require the `x' library -- either you get it for the runtime, or for the syntax, or for both, but you're explicit about it. 08:21:57 a macro newbie should not be trying to write his own syntax transformer 08:22:07 OK, 08:22:24 In that case, the second example uses `syntax-rules' -- should be simpler for a newbie. 08:22:38 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B053BF2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 08:23:01 But the same problem is there -- and now it's even worse -- the (count!) expression is implicitly quoted in a `syntax', and newbies find that completely confusing. 08:23:34 i guess you have a point there 08:23:41 Obviously this example is a small and cooked example -- but when you write more code, it's very easy to forget which code is at what level. 08:24:08 You'll see even very experienced macro writes counting levels -- because it can be so confusing. 08:24:08 i prefer syntax-case over syntax-rules for that reason, easier for me to see what I am doing 08:24:29 RHS of `define-syntax' goes up a level, RHS of a `syntax-rules' goes back down a level, etc. 08:25:01 thats why I avoid syntax-rules :) just do everything in one syntax-case (or several nested ones) 08:25:01 Yeah, well, for the simplicity illusion that it's design to induce, `syntax-rules' is very successful... 08:26:24 And BTW, in other macro languages -- like CPP -- there is no problem, because you're never writing any C code in "syntax time", so these kinds of confusions just don't exist. It is much more important in scheme, of all languages, to make the distinction very clear or people get very confused and very lost. 08:27:06 The usual result of this is that people just throw their hands in the air and conclude that this whole macro stuff is black magic and that there is no way to make sense of it -- so they go and find comfort in a macro-less language. 08:27:55 Just see how many people from how many place (including very intelligent ones) who know "something" about macros pride themselves on using (or even designing) a language that *doesn't* have them. 08:28:05 s/place/places/ 08:29:50 *geckosenator* <3 macros 08:35:03 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 08:39:22 ejs1 [n=eugen@140-114-112-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 09:08:35 -!- saccade [n=saccade@65.78.24.47] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 09:10:10 -!- k-zed [i=kzed@morecp.net] has left #scheme 09:10:52 kanru [n=kanru@61-228-154-225.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 09:12:04 Newbie_fr [n=chatzill@77.84.98.62] has joined #scheme 09:13:06 -!- Newbie_fr [n=chatzill@77.84.98.62] has quit [Client Quit] 09:14:09 *foof* just bought fresh bamboo shoots for the first time 09:16:07 BoFF [n=chatzill@77.84.98.62] has joined #scheme 09:23:19 eli: OK, those are good examples of why trying to manage state during macro expansion time is confusing, but does the explicit phasing make this any more easy? 09:24:00 From Aziz's examples it seems like it's at least as difficult to predict how many times a module will be loaded with explicit phasing. 09:25:44 foof: The mutation there is irrelevant, it's only used to make things more explicit. 09:25:46 For an example of why implicit phasing causes bugs, I'd like to see something useful that works "intuitively" as one would expect with explicit phasing (using (for syntax ...) or whatever as needed), but "breaks" (produces unexpected behavior) when used with implicit phasing. 09:26:58 Explicit phases don't make something more intuitive, they basically guard you against such bugs (and allow using different semantics at the different levels). 09:27:04 -!- kanru [n=kanru@61-228-154-225.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:27:08 mike [n=m@dslb-088-066-229-248.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 09:27:36 -!- mike is now known as Guest99476 09:29:51 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 09:31:07 Will explicit phasing here *always* produce 1 for `count!'? 09:35:30 brandelune [n=suzume@210.136.182.244] has joined #scheme 09:37:03 ... and how can I test this in PLT? There's no R6RS repl, but how can I tell plt-R6RS to look for modules in the current directory? 09:37:04 attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-89-223-140-32.vodafone.hu] has joined #scheme 09:39:38 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 09:48:38 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@140-114-112-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 09:54:55 foof: Re testing, there's some command line argument -- something like `++path .' to make it search the current directory. 09:56:39 -!- BoFF [n=chatzill@77.84.98.62] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.10/2009042316]"] 09:56:41 foof: But the point is not always producing 1 or not -- like I said, the mutation is irrelevant. The issue is that the first two examples are cases where I did a typical newbie mistake -- plt reports an error immediately because I'm required to declare to which level the imports go; ikarus doesn't report an error, and instead it guesses how I could write the imports so the code still makes sense. 09:58:00 (If you look at what I said to leppie earlier -- that's the core: the explanation of my mistakes is expressed in the "explicit phasing" that I need to do with plt.) 09:58:09 And if the newbie just changes it to (import (for (count) expand run)) ? 10:00:08 Then the newbie is explicitly admitting getting the same name at the two different levels -- so the newbie is no longer a newbie. (Or perhaps a very unlucky one that happened to type all that without understanding what it means.) 10:00:13 Can I assume you're not arguing that explicit phasing solves the problem completely, but rather catches a certain class of errors sooner? 10:01:39 Yes. As Riastradh summarized earlier, there are two problems here: 10:02:08 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@210.136.182.244] has left #scheme 10:02:12 (1) masking out errors -- being explicit about the import kinds helps avoiding errors that can otherwise be very confusing. 10:02:38 brandelune [n=suzume@pl244.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 10:03:09 (2) making it impossible to have different semantics at the two levels -- if I want to define `foo' binding at runtime, I cannot use the `foo' name at syntax time for anything other than the same value. 10:03:26 But the point that I made in those examples are related to the first. 10:04:21 (2) doesn't seem very convincing - I think reusing the same name at different phases is just confusing. Just rename it on import. 10:07:32 foof: That's only because you're very used to having the same language at all levels. Consider something very different like typed scheme or lazy scheme or dynamically-typed scheme... These are all done by giving different semantics to code -- and in all cases scheme (the plain one) is very convenient for the syntax level. 10:08:18 They are possible with implicit phasing too (ignoring other problems), but much less convenient to do so, since each module is restricted (roughly speaking) to a single language. 10:09:04 As for the other point -- see also the summary that Matthew wrote here: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.scheme.plt/32985 10:10:06 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-89-223-140-32.vodafone.hu] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:10:33 attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-89-223-140-32.vodafone.hu] has joined #scheme 10:11:44 ejs1 [n=eugen@81-252-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 10:18:01 Qork [n=hask@h101n5c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #scheme 10:18:08 does scheme lists share structure? 10:22:13 BoFF [n=chatzill@77.84.98.62] has joined #scheme 10:22:17 -!- Qork [n=hask@h101n5c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has left #scheme 10:34:52 -!- geckosenator [n=sean@c-71-237-94-78.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:40:57 jao [n=jao@7.Red-83-38-58.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 10:47:01 orgy` [n=ratm_@pD9FFD363.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 10:47:19 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@apn-89-223-252-36.vodafone.hu] has joined #scheme 10:49:22 -!- BoFF [n=chatzill@77.84.98.62] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.10/2009042316]"] 10:51:20 31 10:55:10 -!- hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD125054017176.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit ["|_ e /\ \/ i |/| G"] 10:57:31 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #scheme 11:06:48 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@81-252-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:07:41 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-89-223-140-32.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:12:28 Please excuse this extremely newbie-ish question, but is there a way to destructively update a specific element within a list? I'm sort of looking for Scheme's equivalent of CL's setf. 11:13:55 set-car! 11:16:45 Okay, but then I'd need something like CL's nthcdr. 11:17:10 Some Schemes let you use set! like setf, so (set! (list-ref ls n) x) will work. 11:17:16 A lot of people hate that though. 11:18:10 hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD124214245222.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 11:18:17 nthcdr is called list-tail and is standard R5RS 11:18:39 It is also called `drop' in SRFI-1. 11:20:09 PLT-Scheme doesn't allow me to use the (set! place value) syntax, so I'm going to resort to set-car! and list-tail. 11:20:28 Thanks. 11:22:02 Hmm, PLT-Scheme doesn't seem to have set-car! anymore.. Seems I have to resort to using vectors. 11:23:14 xian: plt recently switched to unmodifiable-by-default pairs. 11:23:22 -!- attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@apn-89-223-252-36.vodafone.hu] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:23:40 lolcow [n=lolcow@196-210-146-143-tvwt-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 11:23:53 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@196.210.146.143] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:24:07 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@apn-89-223-252-36.vodafone.hu] has joined #scheme 11:26:56 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:30:22 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #scheme 11:32:44 synx: rss has been ported to chicken 4 11:50:33 -!- attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@apn-89-223-252-36.vodafone.hu] has quit [Success] 11:51:08 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@apn-89-223-252-36.vodafone.hu] has joined #scheme 12:08:50 -!- sjamaan [n=sjamaan@netbsd/developer/sjamaan] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:16:44 Judofyr [n=Judofyr@168.169.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has joined #scheme 12:17:09 -!- attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@apn-89-223-252-36.vodafone.hu] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:17:30 peter_ [n=sjamaan@frohike.xs4all.nl] has joined #scheme 12:17:39 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@apn-89-223-252-36.vodafone.hu] has joined #scheme 12:17:44 -!- peter_ is now known as sjamaan 12:18:14 -!- sjamaan is now known as Guest7071 12:18:38 -!- Guest7071 is now known as sjamaan 12:22:07 synthase [n=synthase@c-68-63-19-212.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 12:22:28 -!- attila_lendvai_ is now known as attila_lendvai 12:24:13 blackened` [n=blackene@89.102.208.138] has joined #scheme 12:29:42 elderK [n=zk@122-57-247-10.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 12:32:26 -!- elderK [n=zk@122-57-247-10.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 12:50:51 -!- synthase [n=synthase@c-68-63-19-212.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:59:55 mmc [n=mima@cs169084.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 13:01:10 -!- Judofyr [n=Judofyr@168.169.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:01:38 -!- raikov [n=igr@134.74.145.122.ap.yournet.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:03:14 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-219-182.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:14:47 -!- rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 13:20:05 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@92.36.138.82] has joined #scheme 13:24:11 -!- sohum [n=sohum@unaffiliated/sohum] has quit ["leaving"] 13:25:26 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:33:42 -!- npe [n=npe@91.181.18.26] has quit [] 13:35:51 Mr-Cat [n=Mr-Cat@93-81-159-164.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 13:43:49 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-89-223-252-36.vodafone.hu] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:44:40 attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-89-223-252-36.vodafone.hu] has joined #scheme 13:56:12 -!- Guest99476 [n=m@dslb-088-066-229-248.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:05:20 -!- Mr-Cat [n=Mr-Cat@93-81-159-164.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:06:03 Ragnaroek [i=54a641af@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-d7a05d8071e4d8db] has joined #scheme 14:06:11 Mr-Cat [n=Mr-Cat@93-81-159-164.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 14:06:53 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-89-223-252-36.vodafone.hu] has quit ["..."] 14:20:06 npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has joined #scheme 14:20:48 -!- Mr-Cat [n=Mr-Cat@93-81-159-164.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit ["    (xchat 2.4.5  )"] 14:24:06 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@93.37.243.40] has joined #scheme 14:55:05 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:55:11 athos_ [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #scheme 14:57:25 -!- Belaf [n=campedel@93.144.154.32] has left #scheme 14:57:29 -!- athos_ [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Client Quit] 15:03:09 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #scheme 15:09:34 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs169084.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:16:13 luz [n=davids@189.122.121.232] has joined #scheme 15:20:22 rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-234-19.51-151.net24.it] has joined #scheme 15:27:01 foof: wow that was fast 15:28:39 xian: it's usually cheaper to create a new list using (cons new-item (cdr items)) than to use set-car! 15:29:21 Not really. I mean, the port took like 5 minutes (after 1/2 hour for ssax) but I didn't get around to it until just now. 15:30:41 Really most porting to Chicken 4 just involves wrapping the body in a module form. 15:32:05 You need to figure out all the right imports too, but chicken maintains a database of identifiers and modules, and so if you use an unimported "foo" it tells you what exports "foo". 15:38:22 saccade [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 15:54:57 -!- saccade [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:01:50 saccade [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 16:05:25 -!- maskd [n=maskd@unaffiliated/maskd] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:05:25 -!- sjamaan [n=sjamaan@netbsd/developer/sjamaan] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:05:25 -!- sanguinev [n=sanguine@116.197.145.49] has quit [brown.freenode.net 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[n=ati@adsl-89-132-3-75.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #scheme 18:36:22 Olafo [n=olaf_rog@p5080A8A5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 18:37:02 -!- Deformati [n=joe@c-71-238-45-45.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:39:04 dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-64-145.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 18:39:16 sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has joined #scheme 18:39:24 wingo [n=wingo@81.39.163.28] has joined #scheme 18:39:34 good evening 18:40:04 i found something amusing today 18:40:27 ghc's compiler avoids alpha renaming, because gensym is expensive for them 18:40:29 haha :) 18:40:31 https://eprints.kfupm.edu.sa/63927/1/63927.pdf 18:40:31 Do tell 18:40:44 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-230-66.dsl.look.ca] has joined #scheme 18:41:09 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-230-66.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 18:55:51 ray [i=ray@the.ug] has joined #scheme 19:07:52 -!- ray [i=ray@the.ug] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:08:27 -!- 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20:03:27 abbe [n=abbe@abbe.is.a.member.of.pirateparty.in] has joined #scheme 20:03:56 erg [n=erg@li13-154.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 20:07:57 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-130-102.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 20:08:08 elderK [n=zk@122-57-247-10.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 20:08:12 -!- elderK [n=zk@122-57-247-10.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:11:22 ray [i=ray@the.ug] has joined #scheme 20:12:48 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@99-87-179-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:16:36 sanguinev [n=sanguine@116.197.145.49] has joined #scheme 20:20:20 fuad [n=fuad@pop-93b-42.azeronline.com] has joined #scheme 20:30:53 -!- Ragnaroek [i=54a641af@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-d7a05d8071e4d8db] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 20:37:01 http://wingolog.org/archives/2009/05/10/the-very-merry-month-of-may 20:37:14 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:38:59 jberg_ [n=johan@62.80-202-161.nextgentel.com] has joined #scheme 20:39:39 -!- fuad [n=fuad@pop-93b-42.azeronline.com] has left #scheme 20:40:26 jao [n=jao@142.Red-79-156-143.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 20:42:36 -!- jberg [n=johan@62.80-202-161.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:45:49 zepard [n=zepard@unaffiliated/zepard] has joined #scheme 20:45:52 -!- zepard [n=zepard@unaffiliated/zepard] has left #scheme 20:45:55 zepard [n=zepard@unaffiliated/zepard] has joined #scheme 20:52:22 -!- zepard [n=zepard@unaffiliated/zepard] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:59:30 -!- z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit ["leaving"] 20:59:30 -!- wrldpc [n=worldpea@pool-173-48-214-204.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 21:02:57 Arelius [n=indy@64.174.9.113] has joined #scheme 21:03:25 wingo: you write well 21:03:30 -!- Olafo [n=olaf_rog@p5080A8A5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has left #scheme 21:08:02 offby1: thanks :) 21:09:59 wrldpc 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