00:00:00 Does anyone know of any RDF notations that use S-expressions? 00:00:17 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-72-170.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 00:00:56 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B0547A6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:01:02 -!- dysinger [n=tim@216.112.110.172.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [] 00:03:29 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-72-170.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 00:06:17 incubot: I had a little toy scheme, nothing would it bear. but a bit of norvig, and a golden car 00:06:20 Golden_boy_06: #11923: Never catch a signal except as a last resort. 00:06:59 -!- bkudria [n=bkudria@kudria.net] has quit ["ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net"] 00:07:42 bkudria [n=bkudria@kudria.net] has joined #scheme 00:11:12 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs140108.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:15:01 orgy_ [n=ratm_@pD9FFED59.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 00:15:05 proq: excellent verse 00:16:00 excellent icarian pun 00:17:27 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-133-166.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:17:54 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-133-166.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 00:18:21 metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-127-85-87.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 00:28:12 wrldpc_ [n=worldpea@pool-173-48-214-204.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 00:30:34 -!- orgy` [n=ratm_@pD9FFE9CC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:32:28 So, all ye, rejoice, Descot has an Sexpression format written for it now! 00:40:08 cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:40:18 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-62-183-102.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:40:56 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-251-73-128.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 00:45:01 -!- wrldpc [n=worldpea@pool-173-48-214-204.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:50:12 -!- synthase [n=synthase@68.63.19.212] has quit [Success] 00:50:32 -!- hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-251-73-128.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [] 00:53:34 lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has joined #scheme 00:56:12 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-251-73-128.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 01:00:54 dysinger [n=tim@216.112.110.172.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #scheme 01:01:51 can anyone come up with a clever transformation between enumerated headers and recursive sections? 01:01:54 (h1 "harro") (h2 "oh jeah") (h3 "nadir") (h1 "welcome") -> (section (title "harro") (section (title "oh jeah") (section (title "nadir")))) (section (title "welcome")) 01:02:22 there should be a clever, non-mutative solution; since i have the tree height effectively encoded in the header number 01:03:07 i think i might have to resort to a stack-based solution, though; pushing and popping 01:07:37 synthase [n=synthase@68.63.19.212] has joined #scheme 01:12:29 -!- xwl_ [n=user@147.243.236.60] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:18:32 A stack based solution is obvious, and doesn't require mutation. 01:24:39 -!- bweaver [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:33:26 eli: push and pop are a form of mutation, though; aren't they? 01:34:04 not if i simulate the stack through recursive calls, i suppose 01:35:38 -!- lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has quit ["leaving"] 01:36:58 klutometis: exactly -- and it's the classic form of ... uh ... "non-mutation". 01:37:42 dsmith [n=dsmith@cpe-173-88-196-177.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:44:07 buggarag` [n=user@xdsl-87-78-74-9.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 01:46:53 incubot: it's amazing how efficiently forays into imperative-land can rot the functional faculties 01:46:56 faculties. --Dr. H. More. 01:48:17 incubot: if you mean, "in all things deseutude doth contract and narrow our faculties;" you are spot-fucking-on 01:48:20 faculties. --Dr. H. More. 01:48:25 exactly 01:49:01 incubot: Exactly! 01:49:04 It takes a bit to remember exactly how declaring variables in a for loop work, and so I edit and then delete some code. 01:49:16 sepult_ [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-74-9.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 01:49:50 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-72-170.netcologne.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 01:50:00 -!- buggarage [n=user@xdsl-87-78-72-170.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:50:45 -!- sepult_ is now known as sepult 01:51:15 -!- sepult is now known as Guest99926 01:54:28 -!- pschorf [n=paul@isr5045.urh.uiuc.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:55:53 -!- Guest99926 [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-74-9.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 01:56:38 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-208-138.karneval.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:58:15 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-74-9.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 01:59:17 -!- dysinger [n=tim@216.112.110.172.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [] 02:12:03 GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-236-161.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:12:39 offby1` [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 02:14:17 rudybot_ [n=luser@206.124.138.125] has joined #scheme 02:14:23 -!- offby1 [n=user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:27:10 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:29:11 -!- rudybot [n=luser@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:30:57 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 02:46:59 mokogobo [n=mokogobo@pcp075595pcs.unl.edu] has joined #scheme 02:47:05 -!- GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-236-161.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:51:25 tjafk1 [n=timj@e176198143.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 02:53:19 -!- mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:56:53 -!- offby1` is now known as offby1 02:56:59 jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:00:11 -!- orgy_ [n=ratm_@pD9FFED59.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:06:05 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:07:14 -!- tjafk2 [n=timj@e176215196.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:19:04 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-231-13.dsl.look.ca] has joined #scheme 03:20:07 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-231-13.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 03:20:22 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-231-13.dsl.look.ca] has joined #scheme 03:26:25 -!- subversus [n=elliot@rain.angrycoder.org] has quit ["leaving"] 03:26:38 subversus [i=elliot@loveturtle.net] has joined #scheme 03:31:47 Pegazus [n=awefawe@host38.201-253-182.telecom.net.ar] has joined #scheme 03:52:09 -!- gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:57:40 -!- yosafbridge [n=yosafbri@ludios.net] has quit ["Coyote finally caught me"] 03:58:00 yosafbridge [n=yosafbri@ludios.net] has joined #scheme 04:03:41 saccade [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 04:04:17 Lemonator [n=kniu@OVERLORD.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 04:06:33 -!- kniu [n=kniu@OVERLORD.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:09:00 cornucopic [n=r00t@115.241.157.34] has joined #scheme 04:09:37 -!- saccade [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 04:13:19 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-133-166.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 04:13:49 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-133-166.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 04:14:00 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-133-166.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:14:31 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-133-166.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 04:15:17 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-133-166.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:15:47 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-133-166.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 04:15:51 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-133-166.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:16:20 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:18:18 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #scheme 04:19:49 hello 04:21:03 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:21:43 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@99.50.229.92] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:21:53 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #scheme 04:23:11 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 04:23:46 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #scheme 04:25:51 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:26:46 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #scheme 04:26:49 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:26:56 -!- luz [n=davids@189.122.121.232] has quit ["Client exiting"] 04:27:29 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #scheme 04:29:01 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:29:57 saccade [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 04:30:04 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #scheme 04:31:53 -!- meanburrito920_ [n=John@76-217-6-100.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:58:07 sez you 04:58:32 hey cornucopic. did you get your continuations questions answered? 05:03:19 dstorrs, Not yet. Will need to look into it from the docs, etc. Thanks for asking though :) 05:03:33 dstorrs, will ping you surely here ! 05:03:59 cool, I'll look forward to it. 05:04:23 if I'm not here, drop me a mail: dstorrs.public@gmail.com 05:04:23 -!- mokogobo [n=mokogobo@pcp075595pcs.unl.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:04:49 thanks :) 05:15:00 jn [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 05:21:29 tripwyre [n=sathya@117.193.166.33] has joined #scheme 05:22:43 -!- tripwyre [n=sathya@117.193.166.33] has quit [Client Quit] 05:25:33 -!- rudybot_ is now known as rudybot 05:31:20 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:33:24 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 05:52:30 -!- dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has quit ["Goin' away"] 06:19:45 eno_ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-152-140.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 06:27:40 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 06:27:45 -!- eno_ is now known as eno 06:41:40 -!- saccade [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 06:44:59 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 07:06:10 -!- cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:16:17 mike [n=m@dslb-088-066-228-044.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 07:16:45 -!- mike is now known as Guest15521 07:22:19 exexex [n=chatzill@85.101.23.213] has joined #scheme 07:33:15 lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has joined #scheme 07:40:18 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:42:43 -!- XTL [i=t6haha00@rhea.oamk.fi] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:42:43 -!- Debolaz [n=debolaz@berle.cc] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:42:43 -!- aspect [n=aspect@abstracted-spleen.org] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:42:43 -!- qebab [n=finnrobi@eros.orakel.ntnu.no] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:42:43 -!- elf [i=elf@antenora.aculei.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 07:43:26 Debolaz [n=debolaz@berle.cc] has joined #scheme 07:43:26 aspect [n=aspect@abstracted-spleen.org] has joined #scheme 07:43:26 qebab [n=finnrobi@eros.orakel.ntnu.no] has joined #scheme 07:43:26 XTL [i=t6haha00@rhea.oamk.fi] has joined #scheme 07:43:26 elf [i=elf@antenora.aculei.net] has joined #scheme 07:47:56 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 07:49:00 elfor [n=johanfre@85.8.2.11.static.se.wasadata.net] has joined #scheme 08:07:32 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:09:20 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 08:10:19 mmc [n=mima@cs135165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 08:14:13 -!- lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:17:56 eno_ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-151-207.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 08:25:00 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-138-67.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 08:29:27 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:30:31 eno [n=eno@adsl-70-137-137-191.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 08:30:31 -!- exexex [n=chatzill@85.101.23.213] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:35:00 -!- eno_ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-151-207.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:35:14 lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has joined #scheme 08:38:22 -!- jn [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 08:41:17 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-138-67.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [No route to host] 08:43:37 -!- Guest15521 [n=m@dslb-088-066-228-044.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 08:44:50 drwhen [n=d@216-67-73-247-rb1.fai.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net] has joined #scheme 08:47:59 -!- lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:51:09 -!- elfor [n=johanfre@85.8.2.11.static.se.wasadata.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:52:34 elfor [n=johanfre@85.8.2.11.static.se.wasadata.net] has joined #scheme 08:55:30 Ragnaroek [i=54a676dc@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-f0699ec9e4c64905] has joined #scheme 08:58:25 alaricsp [n=alaricsp@217.205.201.45] has joined #scheme 09:14:51 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:26:36 benny` [n=benny@i577A2547.versanet.de] has joined #scheme 09:27:19 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 09:29:16 in the expression, '(lambda (k) (+ 2 (k 3)) 5 )' what is (k 3) doing ? 09:29:23 in the expression, '(lambda (k) (+ 2 (k 3)))' what is (k 3) doing ? 09:31:07 dstorrs, ping. can you help ^ ? 09:36:31 -!- cornucopic [n=r00t@115.241.157.34] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:37:52 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A253F.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:43:27 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B057DEB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 09:49:17 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-183-106.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 09:49:59 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-231-13.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 09:51:48 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-201-172-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 09:52:24 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl092.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:58:57 brandelune [n=suzume@pl092.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 10:05:39 -!- elfor [n=johanfre@85.8.2.11.static.se.wasadata.net] has quit [] 10:06:16 Modius [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-133-166.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 10:06:34 elfor [n=johanfre@85.8.2.11.static.se.wasadata.net] has joined #scheme 10:09:01 wingo [n=wingo@93.Red-83-32-64.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 10:11:29 alaricsp_ [n=alaricsp@217.205.201.45] has joined #scheme 10:20:20 -!- wingo [n=wingo@93.Red-83-32-64.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:24:54 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 10:33:04 -!- alaricsp [n=alaricsp@217.205.201.45] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:36:45 orgy` [n=ratm_@pD9FFED59.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 10:37:44 X-Scale [i=email@2001:470:1f08:b3d:0:0:0:2] has joined #scheme 10:47:39 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has left #scheme 10:48:04 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 10:57:20 Presentatie wat er nieuw is in 5.0 http://www.netbsd.org/~ad/50 10:57:25 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 10:57:26 Oops 10:57:31 Sorry, wrong window 11:08:01 npe_ [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has joined #scheme 11:08:22 -!- npe_ [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:08:45 -!- npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:08:54 npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has joined #scheme 11:11:01 -!- synthase [n=synthase@68.63.19.212] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:25:20 -!- a-s [n=user@92.80.90.15] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:26:46 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-208-138.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 11:28:42 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-209-30-130-75.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 11:36:08 -!- mweinelt_ [n=mweinelt@p4FDC592E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 11:39:32 -!- benny` is now known as benny 11:39:53 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:45:04 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-133-166.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:45:05 *foof* is bored 11:46:47 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-208-138.karneval.cz] has quit [] 11:47:25 xwl` [n=user@114.245.141.249] has joined #scheme 11:47:38 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-208-138.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 11:52:27 -!- xwl [n=user@114.246.85.168] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:57:42 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 12:01:19 -!- Judofyr [n=Judofyr@c349BBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:02:06 synthase [n=synthase@68.63.19.212] has joined #scheme 12:07:20 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 12:09:35 elias` [n=me@resnet-nat-082.ucs.ed.ac.uk] has joined #scheme 12:14:50 mooto [n=chatzill@59.172.140.184] has joined #scheme 12:17:26 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #scheme 12:18:48 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:19:12 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 12:22:26 *dstorrs* creates some fun and amusing widgets for foof to play with, then sends them back in time 35 minutes to entertain him. 12:28:52 *foof* invents a terminator to go back in time and destroy the widgets before they can distract him from building the terminator 12:29:04 *foof* is subsequently cured of his boredom 12:34:00 djjack [n=djjack@cpe-098-026-029-215.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 12:34:17 elias` [n=me@resnet-nat-082.ucs.ed.ac.uk] has joined #scheme 12:46:49 -!- synthase [n=synthase@68.63.19.212] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:49:14 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-159.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 12:49:16 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 13:04:46 -!- dsmith [n=dsmith@cpe-173-88-196-177.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:08:14 -!- Ragnaroek [i=54a676dc@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-f0699ec9e4c64905] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 13:19:15 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has left #scheme 13:19:28 -!- subversus [i=elliot@loveturtle.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:19:44 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 13:20:27 adios all, gotta go get my airport on. See you anon. 13:20:33 -!- dstorrs [n=dstorrs@cpe-98-14-187-196.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.g1m0.se/macirssi/"] 13:20:49 *foof* goes gets his drink on 13:34:18 annodomini [n=lambda@75.69.96.104] has joined #scheme 13:38:00 -!- ada2358 is now known as Ada2358 13:38:55 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has left #scheme 13:39:13 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 13:40:51 -!- elfor [n=johanfre@85.8.2.11.static.se.wasadata.net] has quit [] 13:41:03 -!- geckosenator [n=sean@c-71-237-94-78.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:41:33 geckosenator [n=sean@c-71-237-94-78.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:43:20 elfor [n=johanfre@85.8.2.11] has joined #scheme 13:43:20 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 13:49:39 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl092.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [] 14:02:21 mokogobo [n=mokogobo@pcp075595pcs.unl.edu] has joined #scheme 14:09:31 sepult_ [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-74-113.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 14:11:39 -!- mooto [n=chatzill@59.172.140.184] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.10/2009042316]"] 14:14:21 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 14:18:11 annodomini [n=lambda@130.189.179.215] has joined #scheme 14:21:08 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-74-9.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:23:36 -!- buggarag` [n=user@xdsl-87-78-74-9.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:27:11 vixey [n=e@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 14:34:03 Ragnaroek [i=54a676dc@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-968cf4bdb369d734] has joined #scheme 14:34:16 jcowan [n=jcowan@74.68.154.18] has joined #scheme 14:34:33 -!- sepult_ [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-74-113.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 14:34:46 *jcowan* unvanishes, seeing as how that offby1 seems to be hiding about somewhere again. 14:34:47 mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 14:38:01 -!- xwl` [n=user@114.245.141.249] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:38:46 xwl [n=user@114.245.141.249] has joined #scheme 14:41:31 subversus [i=elliot@loveturtle.net] has joined #scheme 14:49:24 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-74-113.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 14:49:30 -!- xwl [n=user@114.245.141.249] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:49:41 _REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 14:50:14 -!- pfo_ [n=pfo@chello084114049188.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:50:18 -!- _REPLeffect is now known as REPLeffect 14:50:30 xwl [n=user@114.245.141.249] has joined #scheme 14:53:38 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B057DEB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:55:11 pdponze [n=pierre@144.85.124.11] has joined #scheme 14:55:52 -!- pdponze [n=pierre@144.85.124.11] has quit [Client Quit] 14:56:06 -!- djjack [n=djjack@cpe-098-026-029-215.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["leaving"] 14:56:17 pdponze [n=pierre@144.85.124.11] has joined #scheme 14:57:32 metasyntax|work [n=taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 14:58:04 I could use some insight about what types are useful to have available at (low-level) macro expansion time. So far I have symbol, pair, vector, string, character, function, condition, and fixnum. Does anybody have a use case for providing other types? 14:59:02 jcowan: () 14:59:42 Sure, thanks. 14:59:57 In particular, I do not want to provide any user-defined types at macroexpand time. 15:00:08 records, etc. 15:00:32 I'm even wondering whether vectors are worth having. 15:01:06 jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 15:01:52 npe_ [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has joined #scheme 15:01:56 They are basically an optimization hack on lists, and who cares how fast macro-expansion code runs? 15:03:23 (Well, vectors save space too, but again, how often do macros deal in giant lists?) 15:08:30 Expanding into literals is useful. 15:08:51 I don't follow you. 15:09:30 Expanding what into what kind of literals? 15:09:41 Any literals. Vectors. 15:09:53 Hmm. 15:10:48 e.g. a macro that transforms a case-like statement into a vector lookup. 15:10:50 So I could provide vectors at m-e time, but not the vector-specific functions. (Of course they can be referenced in generated code; I'm just looking here at what the m-e interpreter has to understand.) 15:12:26 Or is that too weak? 15:12:43 I guess it would be at that. 15:13:19 Bah. 15:13:54 Looks like I have to do the whole freakin' language. Except I/O. I draw the line at I/O. 15:14:15 And records. I draw the line there too. 15:14:55 langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 15:15:18 Which leaves out any algorithm that you use to expand that needs a custom type (e.g. rb-trees). 15:16:09 Oh, I actually use I/O in macros. (include ), and also reading in the version number from the file VERSION at compile time. 15:16:22 jcowan: you should do I/O 15:17:01 -!- npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:17:11 why can't user defined types be used at macroexpand time? 15:17:24 Nope. No (define-for-syntax doodoo (read)) (define-syntax douxdoux (lambda b r c) (doodoo)) stuff 15:17:39 -!- wrldpc_ [n=worldpea@pool-173-48-214-204.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 15:17:50 Because this is a batch compiler, and I'm not gonna build its whole runtime environment into it. 15:18:06 Also that gets me into phasing and all that junk. 15:18:19 well I'm not sure what phasing is 15:18:43 I thought you might have to make the compiler generate the optimal datastructure for type 15:18:56 It's about which functions are available at compile time 15:19:19 are you concerned with compile speed? 15:19:24 and if those functions are written using special syntax that calls functions ... 15:19:27 Only somewhat. 15:19:47 but I do not want to have the compiler compile macro functions and invoke itself, no. 15:20:00 it's great to be able to trade speed/size/compiler speed etc.. with commandline arguments 15:20:31 are you generating assembly directly? 15:23:25 No, I am generating Java directly. 15:33:45 bweaver [n=user@c-68-60-199-117.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:34:33 A general argument for having, say, floats available at m-e time 15:34:53 suppose you want to be able to say (polar 3.0 1.2) and generate a complex number 15:35:16 (as opposed to generating *code* that computes the complex number) 15:35:25 That seems reasonable to be able to do. 15:35:48 But it so happens that the compiler running in the bootstrap env and self-hosted don't have the same guarantees about floats. 15:35:59 Sucks. 15:36:40 *jcowan* redounds to his sanctum sanctorum. 15:36:42 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@74.68.154.18] has quit ["Bailing out"] 15:42:44 -!- mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:50:25 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:01:16 -!- p1dzkl [i=p1dzkl@cl-88.cph-01.dk.sixxs.net] has quit ["changing servers"] 16:15:11 -!- Ragnaroek [i=54a676dc@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-968cf4bdb369d734] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 16:15:18 Ragnaroek [i=54a676dc@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-2d76fbaf436d2d95] has joined #scheme 16:15:57 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 16:20:12 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@93.37.245.186] has joined #scheme 16:21:58 Hello, is there a built-in function to calculate the nth square of two numbers? For example 2^3 = 8. It would be easy to define but I don't want to reinvent the wheel every time ;) 16:22:50 expt? 16:23:11 yes thanks geckosenator 16:32:03 -!- ejs [n=eugen@123-186-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:41:35 HG` [n=wells@91.108.74.20] has joined #scheme 16:49:26 ejs [n=eugen@224-19-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 17:02:28 wrldpc [n=worldpea@c-66-30-115-59.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:22:22 mike [n=m@dslb-088-066-230-245.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 17:22:50 -!- mike is now known as Guest32459 17:23:46 luz [n=davids@189.122.121.232] has joined #scheme 17:29:37 -!- wrldpc [n=worldpea@c-66-30-115-59.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 17:34:11 -!- melgray [n=melgray@pool-71-121-210-139.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 17:55:03 -!- geckosenator [n=sean@c-71-237-94-78.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:56:08 Leonidas_ [n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas] has joined #scheme 17:57:33 -!- Leonidas_ is now known as Leonidas 17:58:54 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:04:26 -!- alaricsp_ [n=alaricsp@217.205.201.45] has quit [] 18:11:07 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:16:48 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 18:19:02 -!- underspecified [n=eric-n@leopard175.naist.jp] has quit [] 18:19:14 melgray [n=melgray@70.99.250.82] has joined #scheme 18:20:59 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #scheme 18:27:01 Judofyr [n=Judofyr@ti0056a341-0392.bb.online.no] has joined #scheme 18:27:33 -!- Judofyr [n=Judofyr@ti0056a341-0392.bb.online.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:29:17 -!- pdponze [n=pierre@144.85.124.11] has left #scheme 18:32:52 wrldpc [n=worldpea@c-66-30-115-59.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:37:56 -!- langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:40:28 -!- Guest32459 [n=m@dslb-088-066-230-245.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:42:10 langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 18:47:08 Pegazus_ [n=awefawe@host38.201-253-182.telecom.net.ar] has joined #scheme 18:49:48 -!- ejs [n=eugen@224-19-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:48 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-74-113.netcologne.de] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:48 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-183-106.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:48 -!- Pegazus [n=awefawe@host38.201-253-182.telecom.net.ar] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:48 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-10-217.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:48 -!- tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:48 -!- Ragnaroek [i=54a676dc@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-2d76fbaf436d2d95] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:48 -!- subversus [i=elliot@loveturtle.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:48 -!- mokogobo [n=mokogobo@pcp075595pcs.unl.edu] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:48 -!- Lemonator [n=kniu@OVERLORD.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:48 -!- morphir [n=morphir@217.168.81.9] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:48 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:48 -!- ineiros [n=ineiros@kosh.hut.fi] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:49 -!- z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:49 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable087.62-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:49 -!- ray [i=ray@2001:41c8:1:54da:0:0:0:1337] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:49 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:49 -!- xian [i=xian@we-are-the-b.org] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:49 -!- tessier [n=treed@unused-105-40-113.ixpres.com] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:49 -!- ski [n=slj@c-e113e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:49 -!- djarvelis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:49 -!- aardvarq [i=tgAardva@student3113.student.nau.edu] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:49 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:49 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-209-30-130-75.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:51 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:51 -!- yosafbridge [n=yosafbri@ludios.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:51 -!- jld [i=jld@kurobara.xlerb.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:51 -!- bohanlon [n=bohanlon@TUBERIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:51 -!- mbishop [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:49:51 -!- kazzmir [n=kazzmir@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:51:17 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 18:51:17 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-209-30-130-75.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 18:51:17 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #scheme 18:51:17 yosafbridge [n=yosafbri@ludios.net] has joined #scheme 18:51:17 jld [i=jld@kurobara.xlerb.net] has joined #scheme 18:51:17 bohanlon [n=bohanlon@TUBERIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 18:51:17 mbishop [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has joined #scheme 18:51:17 kazzmir [n=kazzmir@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:51:18 Ragnaroek [i=54a676dc@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-2d76fbaf436d2d95] has joined #scheme 18:51:18 subversus [i=elliot@loveturtle.net] has joined #scheme 18:51:18 mokogobo [n=mokogobo@pcp075595pcs.unl.edu] has joined #scheme 18:51:18 Lemonator [n=kniu@OVERLORD.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 18:51:18 morphir [n=morphir@217.168.81.9] has joined #scheme 18:51:18 ineiros [n=ineiros@kosh.hut.fi] has joined #scheme 18:51:18 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable087.62-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 18:51:18 z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #scheme 18:51:20 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #scheme 18:51:20 xian [i=xian@we-are-the-b.org] has joined #scheme 18:51:20 tessier [n=treed@unused-105-40-113.ixpres.com] has joined #scheme 18:51:20 ski [n=slj@c-e113e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 18:51:20 djarvelis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #scheme 18:51:20 aardvarq [i=tgAardva@student3113.student.nau.edu] has joined #scheme 18:51:20 ray [i=ray@2001:41c8:1:54da:0:0:0:1337] has joined #scheme 18:51:23 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@92.36.188.144] has joined #scheme 18:52:04 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-183-106.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 18:52:12 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-74-113.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 18:52:43 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@92.36.188.144] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 18:52:55 ejs [n=eugen@224-19-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 18:53:15 tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 18:53:45 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@92.36.188.144] has joined #scheme 19:02:06 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@93.37.245.186] has quit [] 19:03:18 mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 19:05:15 dysinger [n=tim@216.112.110.172.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #scheme 19:06:07 -!- dysinger [n=tim@216.112.110.172.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:13:31 saccade [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-74-28.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 19:14:27 -!- sepult is now known as Guest17985 19:15:45 -!- bweaver [n=user@c-68-60-199-117.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:18:11 -!- wrldpc [n=worldpea@c-66-30-115-59.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 19:19:58 -!- mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:29:15 alaricsp [n=alaricsp@217.205.201.45] has joined #scheme 19:31:47 wrldpc [n=worldpea@140.247.133.182] has joined #scheme 19:50:38 -!- wrldpc [n=worldpea@140.247.133.182] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:53:55 wrldpc [n=worldpea@dhcp-0049609942-ff-f3.client.student.harvard.edu] has joined #scheme 19:53:57 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-209-30-130-75.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Success] 19:54:27 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-209-30-130-75.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 19:54:52 -!- bsmntbombdood [n=gavin@97-118-129-241.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:55:34 bsmntbombdood [n=gavin@97-118-129-241.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 19:56:13 -!- bsmntbombdood [n=gavin@97-118-129-241.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:56:55 bsmntbombdood [n=gavin@97-118-129-241.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 19:56:55 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-209-30-130-75.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:57:24 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-209-30-130-75.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 19:57:47 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-209-30-130-75.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:58:14 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-209-30-130-75.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 19:58:34 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-209-30-130-75.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:59:02 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-209-30-130-75.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 19:59:21 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-209-30-130-75.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:59:50 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-209-30-130-75.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 20:01:35 wrldpc_ [n=worldpea@c-65-96-165-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:02:47 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-209-30-130-75.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 20:02:49 -!- Guest17985 [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-74-113.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 20:03:16 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:03:40 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #scheme 20:03:43 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-209-30-130-75.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 20:03:44 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-209-30-130-75.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:03:53 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-74-113.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 20:04:14 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-209-30-130-75.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 20:08:28 -!- wrldpc [n=worldpea@dhcp-0049609942-ff-f3.client.student.harvard.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:17:25 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #scheme 20:21:23 gwern [n=gwern@wikipedia/Gwern] has joined #scheme 20:21:59 so I've run into another dr.scheme thingy. why does it support 'false' and 'true' as literals, while the sicp tutor and http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_idx_356 only like '#f' and '#t'? 20:22:01 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/5rwyqj 20:22:07 is it something specific to dr.scheme? 20:22:48 It is not peculiar to DrScheme; the names TRUE and FALSE have no standard definition, whereas the tokens #T and #F do have standard interpretation. 20:23:06 ...er. 20:23:16 Disregard the clause preceding the semicolon, please. 20:24:02 is there any history behind that? #t and #f seem... kind of fugly 20:26:17 mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 20:28:15 -!- Ragnaroek [i=54a676dc@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-2d76fbaf436d2d95] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 20:28:47 gwern, Lisp has too much history 20:29:05 drscheme tries to shield you away from this history, in its learning language levels. 20:29:31 in CL, it's just T and NIL 20:29:32 Fare: well, I'm doign sicp/learning scheme, and I'm trying to figure out how hard I should try to learn #f and #t, or whether I should basically forget about it 20:30:03 #t and #f are correct scheme, everything else is *not* 20:30:25 in scheme, they had only a one global namespace and didn't want to reserve an expensive 1-letter symbol or two for constants -- so they chose special syntax instead 20:30:41 -!- wrldpc_ [n=worldpea@c-65-96-165-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:30:52 bleh. what was wrong with 'true' and 'false'? really too long? 20:32:25 how hard is it to remember #t and #f? 20:32:50 they're so weird looking! 20:33:11 I already know 'true' 'false' from a lifetime of english; #t #f look like line noise 20:33:44 (doesn't help that they're pretty visually symmetrical to each other - a t looks like a upsidedown f) 20:34:52 Fare: It's not just a namespace issue -- it's the removal of redundant magic from the language. 20:35:05 how is #t more weird-looking than #(1 2 3) ?? 20:35:57 The redundant magic in this case is the fact that `T' and `NIL' are magically always bound to the same values -- so they look like identifiers, but it's best to think about them as reader macros for the constants. 20:36:56 ecraven: `#t' and `#f' are correct just as any other use of them through binders. (And you might object to those particular binders or having any binders at all -- but that's a subjective point.) 20:37:04 -!- langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:37:37 so (let ((nil t)) ...) doesn't work in CL in the obvious way? 20:38:06 Error: Cannot bind NIL -- it is a constant. 20:38:14 eli: i'm not arguing against true/false, i'm arguing for #t/#f :) 20:39:01 ecraven: I'm not arguing against a true/false argument -- I'm arguing that using a binding is as sane as anything. 20:39:07 Perhaps even saner. 20:39:20 eli, you're not removing it -- you're just moving it. 20:39:43 Scheme could just as well require quoting them: '#t and '#f -- I'm sure that would contribute to their popularity... 20:40:23 yes, i don't dispute that. i mainly wanted to point out that for now the Scheme standard has #t and #f, not true/false. that may change at some time in the future, but there's no good reason *not* to use them in r5rs/r6rs scheme 20:40:26 Fare: Yes, it's moved to a more "obvious" place -- `#t' and `#f' are much more expected to be reader magic than constants. 20:40:37 personally, I would have made () the truth marker #t, and #f be bottom or '(bottom) or some such :) 20:40:56 -!- HG` [n=wells@91.108.74.20] has quit [Client Quit] 20:40:59 #f == '#bottom 20:41:12 synthase [n=synthase@68.63.19.212] has joined #scheme 20:41:13 #t == '#top 20:41:13 Fare: But also note the difference in terminology: `#t' and `#f' in scheme are considered literals, and in CL `T' and `NIL' are considered constants. 20:41:25 hm.. actually it *feels* right not to have true and false be "normal" bindings, but i can't explain why 20:41:33 So CL is sort of between constants and bindings... 20:41:54 eli: and yet in the teaching language, you have empty, false, true... 20:42:32 p1dzkl [i=p1dzkl@cl-88.cph-01.dk.sixxs.net] has joined #scheme 20:42:35 and things like lambda, and, let-syntax are reserved keywords in Scheme. 20:42:45 ecraven: For teaching purposes, `true' and `false' make much more sense: it removes the need to learn more "obscure Scheme syntax", and makes the resulting language more symmetric. 20:42:55 ak70 [n=ak70@195.158.89.115] has joined #scheme 20:43:18 T and NIL makes total sense on a 1960's computer. 20:43:26 ecraven: In that sense it "feels very right" to have them, so they behave like everything else in Scheme -- just like `if' doesn't have some special holy status and can be shadowed locally. 20:43:27 ah, but then you are not teaching Scheme, but plt-beginners'-language (which might be much more apt for beginners than r5rs/r6rs Scheme) 20:43:35 was # standardized at all at the time??? 20:43:49 Fare: :) 20:44:00 is there a #lang statement for the plt-beginner's language? 20:44:07 Fare: I completely agree -- the history baggage there is significant. 20:44:59 Fare: There is, but it's not completely like beginner etc -- the reader would be the builtin reader. 20:45:22 what's the problem? 20:45:35 ecraven: Sure, that would not be teaching *standard* scheme -- but how many textbooks or courses do you know about that do teach it? 20:45:54 eli: fair enough :) 20:45:55 I was trying to save self-describing files with exercises, and couldn't find a way. 20:46:05 Fare: No big problem, the plan is to eventually switch to having the #lang variants be completely equivalent. 20:46:12 uhm... recursive contracts... 20:46:42 I was playing with CPS and noticed that a procedure needs to take a procedure with identical arguments to itself. 20:47:09 Could that argument be defined in a contract recursively, or should I just use "procedure?"? 20:48:50 *eli* points at plt-scheme.org/maillist/ 20:49:54 (define (foo a b next) (when (something a) (next (+ a b) (- a b) foo))) for instance. what would the contract for that be? 20:50:33 *eli* points at plt-scheme.org/maillist/ with a second finger 20:51:38 yes eli you have very nice fingers. 20:51:39 aha http://docs.plt-scheme.org/guide/contracts-gotchas.html#(part._.Defining_recursive_contracts) 20:52:24 what are contracts to do with it? 20:52:30 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs135165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:53:01 how do I write a contract with the devil? 20:55:07 fare: you start by typing 'dear mr ballmer' 20:55:52 Fare: very carefully 20:56:17 which contract are you trying to write? 21:02:25 synx, 21:06:35 -!- ak70 [n=ak70@195.158.89.115] has left #scheme 21:08:39 -!- metasyntax|work [n=taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit ["Die Gedanken sind frei."] 21:10:17 vixey: what 21:10:25 what are contracts to do with it? 21:10:39 vixey: I was trying to make a recursive contract. Never did that before. 21:11:00 I don't understand these contracts, they have to be decidable or not? 21:11:17 there seems to be something that automatically checks them, but on the other hand you can define input and output types of a proceure 21:16:13 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #scheme 21:16:51 -!- jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:19:29 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:26:28 It's just something the module system uses. When you require or provide a module, or call a contracted procedure, it checks the contract to make sure all input and output is as expected. 21:26:49 Kind of like a wrapper... 21:28:45 dysinger [n=tim@216.112.110.172.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #scheme 21:33:26 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 21:36:13 -!- ski [n=slj@c-e113e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:50:44 ventonegro [n=alex@189.100.201.128] has joined #scheme 21:51:19 hello 21:59:56 -!- npe_ [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has quit [] 22:03:36 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:04:51 la la la 22:11:29 al al al 22:11:47 -!- mokogobo [n=mokogobo@pcp075595pcs.unl.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:11:58 man, buying eSATA cables is not an easy thing to do 22:12:10 there's male/female, type I or type L or type A or type B 22:12:59 i think i need type I to type I 22:14:08 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:16:34 -!- gwern [n=gwern@wikipedia/Gwern] has left #scheme 22:23:31 -!- dysinger [n=tim@216.112.110.172.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [] 22:26:21 I think contracts pretty much disable any form of tail recursion, right? 22:26:55 It has to check the return value to see if it's the right sort of return value, so can't throw away the enclosing context... 22:27:31 -!- elfor [n=johanfre@85.8.2.11] has quit [] 22:29:13 langmartin [n=user@adsl-074-167-038-128.sip.cha.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 22:30:42 -!- alaricsp [n=alaricsp@217.205.201.45] has quit [] 22:34:03 ski [n=slj@c-e113e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 22:34:26 -!- melgray [n=melgray@70.99.250.82] has quit [] 22:35:49 elfor [n=johanfre@85.8.2.11.static.se.wasadata.net] has joined #scheme 22:42:12 -!- elfor [n=johanfre@85.8.2.11.static.se.wasadata.net] has quit [] 22:44:38 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 22:45:29 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-183-106.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:46:39 arcfide [n=arcfide@99.50.229.92] has joined #scheme 22:48:09 -!- langmartin [n=user@adsl-074-167-038-128.sip.cha.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:48:42 -!- Qaexl [n=Akashakr@c-24-30-97-247.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:50:42 How's everyone this evening? 22:51:07 Qaexl [n=Akashakr@c-24-30-97-247.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:51:44 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [No route to host] 23:01:29 elfor [n=johanfre@85.8.2.11.static.se.wasadata.net] has joined #scheme 23:01:50 fiddling with email again... finding CPS is ideal for building finite state machines. 23:02:00 how about you? 23:02:21 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 23:02:38 also noting how plt's "net/dns" is most likely broken, or at least reports errors in a weird way. 23:02:44 synx: More work on Descot. :-) 23:03:04 rudybot: eval (require net/dns) 23:03:05 synx: your scheme sandbox is ready 23:03:32 rudybot: eval (dns-get-address "localhost") 23:03:32 synx: error: procedure dns-get-address: expects 2 arguments, given 1: "localhost" 23:03:32 -!- mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:03:47 oops 23:03:58 decaf [n=mehmet@88.232.72.119] has joined #scheme 23:04:17 rudybot: eval (dns-get-address (dns-find-nameserver) "localhost") 23:04:17 synx: error: udp-open-socket: network access denied: (#f #f server) 23:04:46 dangit I can't reproduce the error in the sandbox. 23:05:15 what happens if you CPS convert twice? 23:06:41 I typically start from CPS, and don't try to mess with conversion. 23:07:03 X-Scale2 [i=email@2001:470:1f08:b3d:0:0:0:2] has joined #scheme 23:07:11 -!- X-Scale [i=email@2001:470:1f08:b3d:0:0:0:2] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 23:08:43 Really don't know how useful that Descot thing would be arcfide. Are you talking some sort of nonspecific cross-implementation module system? 23:08:54 synx: No. :-) 23:09:18 synx: I'm talking about an interface for the communication of library metadata between applications. 23:09:52 Specifically, repositories of library metadata and Scheme implementations, or package managers, or web applications. 23:10:11 You won't be able to use Chicken modules in plt, or vice versa, so if they stay separate I don't really see the problem. 23:10:29 synx: Don't see the problem with what? 23:10:47 Maybe you could make a code that works between schemes, but since each implementation has its own vastly different module system, you won't be able to make use of vital things like namespaces. 23:11:02 synx: There are more Schemers in the world than those that use Chicken and PLT. It's nice to know what libraries exist. Some libraries that could run on Chicken do not have Chicken Eggs. 23:11:40 At this stage, I merely wish to document all of the libraries out there, so that people can choose for themselves what they want. 23:11:42 How could they run on Chicken without being eggs? 23:11:52 synx: ... 23:12:02 synx: Do you write an egg every time you write a program? 23:12:33 -!- X-Scale2 [i=email@2001:470:1f08:b3d:0:0:0:2] has quit [Client Quit] 23:12:48 Uh... eventually? 23:13:05 synx: Do you use Chicken? 23:13:37 I'm just saying if you put "(declare (uses xxx))" in your file you just made it chicken specific, but if you omit that then it removes any notion of modularity. 23:13:44 synx: Is the code you write so entirely and inconceviably importable that no other Scheme implementation could possibly use it? 23:13:54 And "(provide xxx)" in plt, and whatever in Guile. 23:13:55 s/import/nonport/ 23:14:04 dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has joined #scheme 23:14:09 synx: Who cares? 23:14:19 At this moment, Descot certainly doesn't. 23:14:32 Descot is just concerned that there *is* such a library in existence. 23:14:42 mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 23:14:49 They could possibly use it, but they'd have to wrap it around their particular module system in order to use it properly. 23:14:58 Many people may not even be aware that such a library exists. 23:15:20 Like foof's HTML parser. I wrote a second file that defines a plt module wrapped around foof's non-module module. 23:15:21 synx: Yes, and many times, that's not as much of a showstopper as you make it think. 23:15:32 synx; there you go. 23:15:34 Pegazus [n=awefawe@host224.201-253-84.telecom.net.ar] has joined #scheme 23:15:44 synx: But doesn't Chicken have foof's HTML-parser already? 23:15:52 synx: I mean, as an egg? 23:15:55 But you said Descot would not do this. 23:16:07 I think Chicken might... mostly I use plt. 23:16:14 synx: Does PLT have it? 23:16:28 synx: In PLaneT? 23:16:35 synx: What does Descot not do? 23:16:40 I haven't published it yet, but yes. 23:16:47 -!- jld [i=jld@kurobara.xlerb.net] has quit ["Welcome to NetBSD 5.0! I hope."] 23:16:50 synx: So, you haven't pubslished it... 23:17:00 -!- vixey [n=e@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:17:03 How did you learn about foof's html parser? 23:17:15 Descot doesn't provide an interface for the communication of library metadata. 23:17:21 dysinger [n=tim@216.112.110.172.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #scheme 23:17:24 ...from foof? 23:17:51 require/provide in plt is one such interface. 'declare' in Chicken is another such interface. And I'm trying to figure out what interface you provide in Descot for that sort of thing. 23:17:59 synx: Exactly. Wouldn't it have been nicer if you could have just gone to your command line or to PLT's Descot Server, or to some other Descot server, and searched for HTML parsers, and found a listing of possible candidates? 23:18:16 synx: Descot isn't trying to be a module system. Implementations do that just fine on their own. 23:18:21 It's metadata. 23:18:32 Oh, so like a search engine. 23:18:42 It describes information about libraries in such a way that computers can talk reasonably about them, whether or not they can run the code. 23:18:57 One of those... semantic search engines they talk about. 23:19:00 synx: It's more than a search engine, but yes, searching and indexing the wealth of Scheme libraries out there is one of the benefits. 23:19:31 asmips [n=asmips@153.9.164.30] has joined #scheme 23:19:42 How do I open a file in scheme? like into a string? 23:19:48 It allows for you to easily publish your library, it allows for you to easily find libraries, and it allows for you to easily install and use the libraries in the way that you find most convenient. It does not however, enforce any specific tool or program for doing any one of these things outside of the general protocol for doing so. 23:20:06 synx: Unless you're doing something very odd, the way to write state machines is to write in CPS rather than convert some code to CPS. (Usually such code didn't come from some conversion) 23:20:07 What I would have done to find such a parser is have gone to PLaneT, then to google maybe. 23:20:12 That and ask here on the channel. 23:20:24 synx: re bugs in net/dns -- if you have bugs to report, then this channel is not a good place to do so. 23:20:28 synx: Right, and many people don't find that acceptable. Why should they have to do that? 23:20:38 synx: It can be difficult to search google for Libraries. 23:20:40 X-Scale [i=email@2001:470:1f0a:13ea:0:0:0:2] has joined #scheme 23:20:56 eli: Yes I'm starting in CPS. vixey was the one talking about conversions. 23:21:02 -!- X-Scale [i=email@2001:470:1f0a:13ea:0:0:0:2] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:21:05 Searching and documenting the library chaos in Scheme is the first phase of Descot. 23:21:09 Anyone know how to load a file in scheme & how to reference it? 23:21:21 r5rs open-input-file 23:21:22 http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_idx_604 23:21:24 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/dcfpe8 23:21:27 asmips: Check out the above. 23:21:27 arcfide: the main problem in your approach is your division of what is and what is not considered libraries. For example, PLT comes with a *lot* of libraries as part of the main distribution (including an html parser even) -- would you add all of them? 23:21:46 Another example would be random bits of scheme code on someone's web page -- would you include that too> 23:21:50 X-Scale [i=email@2001:470:1f0a:13ea:0:0:0:2] has joined #scheme 23:21:51 s/>/?/ 23:21:57 arcfide: It's questionable whether or not it'd be worth the trouble to convert a library from another scheme. Take Chicken's sqlite module for instance. Porting it to PLT is a complete rewrite since they have totally different FFIs. Well, maybe similar but... 23:22:14 eli: I don't know, I might. Nothing really restricts them from being added, and nothing says they should be added. PLT can run their own server and make the call. 23:22:34 synx: Yes, sometimes it's not worth it, but sometimes it is. 23:22:39 I think it would be neat to have a way to search for scheme code that accomplishes some kind of task, so you could at least learn from it even if you have to write it yourself. 23:22:50 Not a big priority though... 23:23:16 arcfide: The bottom line of all of this is that I don't see what I get from descot, over, say, planet+google, as synx suggested. 23:23:45 eli: I can see why you might ask that. Hopefully, that will become clearer as I make more of the system. 23:24:05 Google just indexes by keywords found in the page, whereas arcfide is going to use semantics to organize the stuff. RDF and all that. 23:24:18 eli: Right now, though, I know many people who do not find Google sufficient or even desirable for finding Scheme libraries, however. 23:24:54 Yeah, but that's a general problem of searching for code, which is one of the reasons for google-code. 23:25:20 re the "semantics to organize the stuff" -- I've never seen the point of that either. 23:25:39 brandelune [n=suzume@pl065.nas932.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 23:25:40 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@92.36.188.144] has quit [Success] 23:26:28 eli: Right now, PLT has a tightly integrated module system with software distribution through PLaneT, which is quite nice, but others can't make use of the system quite as conveniently as they might, if they don't use PLT. Of course, I wouldn't expect PLT to care so much about this either. However, it would be useful to some extent, and would help to bring together the set of libraries in Scheme and make it easier for newcomers to find what they needed. 23:26:36 I like semantics vaguely. It's a whitelist based approach to crawling though, so it won't reach places where people are unaware or don't themselves implement it. 23:27:11 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-159.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:27:14 http://www.dmoz.org/ is a great resource for that kind of meaningful topical organized search. 23:27:23 eli: Yes, it's a problem of searching for Code, but Descot is designed to alleviate that problem and make it very easy to use code that is out there. 23:27:24 But it can only get a tiny fraction of the webpages out there. 23:28:43 arcfide: I don't know how it can do that -- you said that it does nothing in regards to meta-data, or installing packages, or whatever. While this sounds like a sensible choice (in contrast to snow, for example), I don't see what it leaves me with that, say, google code doesn't already gives me. 23:29:08 -!- tverwaes [i=tverwaes@igwe11.vub.ac.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:29:12 tverwaes [i=tverwaes@igwe11.vub.ac.be] has joined #scheme 23:29:37 eli: Are you talking about the code repository at google? ? 23:30:46 jld [i=jld@kurobara.xlerb.net] has joined #scheme 23:31:14 arcfide: No, I'm talking about the google code search: http://www.google.com/codesearch 23:31:43 In the future, Descot may make more use of the meta data, such as attempting Semi-automatic Library porting efforts, but this also requires lot's of metadata to begin with. Descot itself doesn't try to solve the problem of package installation, but it facilitates programs who wish to do so. That is, something like Snow becomes more effective if it is only an installation and management tool for libraries obtained from, say, Descot repositories. 23:33:01 -!- Pegazus_ [n=awefawe@host38.201-253-182.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:33:55 eli: Descot is also more tightly knit than Googe CodeSearch, if I understand it correctly. A quick search doesn't exactly leave me impressed. Descot provides more than just unstructured search over code that's out there. I'd say its focus is different. 23:34:38 eli: Descot is also decentralized, meaning that you can use descot to distribute the information about your libraries on your own web site easily, and have it picked up by Descot servers. 23:35:02 It's something like "descot repositry" that is unclear to me. Providing a tool to search for scheme libraries is one thing (that google does just fine, IMO), but using "repository" suggests that you plan to keep code there too -- and I don't see how this will not go down the snow path. 23:35:26 eli: No, right now I don't intend to host libraries, rather, just the metadata. 23:35:37 "Decentralized" sounds like a good buzzword to include, but I still don't see why I should use it -- either as a library writer or as a library user. 23:36:14 eli: Searching is only one aspect. I want to facilitate the creation of tools that can all collaborate together on the same information, so that, for example, you can use Snow if you want ot, but that you don't have to use it either. 23:36:34 *mejja* makes popcorn 23:37:25 I don't know how that could possibly be done without meta-data, or without rules about the meta-data that can be used to specify installation and conversion procedures. 23:37:49 eli: As a library writer, you could just write your library, put it up wherever you want, say, on your own server, or on PLT, and if you either have it linked with a Descot repository, or otherwise, it would immediately be available for others to use and see, and install or port elsewhere. You also would be able to distribute it without having to maintain separate copies of the code in different places. 23:38:56 eli: Each program can use the metadata however they want, including using it to manage some kind of installation stuff. Of course, not everything is perfect at the moment, but it can get closer. 23:39:23 "be available for others to use and see" is something I get from putting stuff up on the web in general. "distribute it without having to maintain separate copies of the code in different places" is what URLs are for. 23:39:52 Rome wasn't built In a day. 23:39:57 Right now, no one system has succeeded in getting used everywhere or mostly by every Schemer because we all like our different tools and implementations. This is the start of a way to communicate between those different tools in an useful and meaningful way. 23:40:40 eli: But putting it up on the web does not make it easily identifiable as a Scheme library, nor provide a regular set of information that can be used to obtain the library and install it mostly automatically. 23:40:58 eli: It also does not provide enough information for a compouter to automatically find other dependencies on which your library may rely. 23:41:26 eli: Unless you restrict yourself to a single implementation with a tightly knit system like PLaneT, which is great, except for the others who don't use it. 23:41:39 *eli* frustrates 23:41:43 :-) 23:42:02 "Each program can use the metadata however they want" -- so you attach no meaning to the meta data. 23:42:32 eli: not inherently, but yes, it is meant to be used in one way. Of course, who am i to say that someone has to use it that way? 23:42:53 Therefore, such meaning-less meta data is no better than a link to my code, with text before that saying "Here is the `foo' library. It requires `baz'. You should run `blah' to install it." 23:42:55 eli: I'm trying to avoid making rules that don't need to exist for the purpose. 23:43:27 eli: If you make a regular syntax around that that compouters could easily understand, then no, it is pretty much the same. 23:43:41 Combined with a limited set of additional protocols for server communication. 23:43:46 And a query server. 23:43:53 And a submission framework. 23:44:56 eli: But it's important that this information be available both easily and fully to computers and humans. 23:44:59 Right now, this isn't done. 23:45:00 But for "computers to understand" it you need some rules about the meta-data. We're going in circles here. 23:45:10 I'm hoping that Descot will fix that. 23:45:21 eli: Why do there have to be rules? 23:45:48 eli: In order for servers to coooperate, there have to be standards about how they should all treat the metadata, but if one server does not want to cooperate, then they don't have to use the data the same way. 23:46:07 However, if they expect to cooperate, then they all need to use the meta-data in a meaningful way. 23:46:32 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 23:46:33 Just because a C program has rules about how to execute it in the C standard, doesn't mean I can't interpret that code differently. 23:47:27 Why does a program have to attach any meaning to anything it reads just because it happens to match some language or some set standard? It doesn't have to do that, but at the same time, does have to behave well if it expects to operate according to the intent of the program written. 23:48:59 What I want is for people to take this system, and add tools and other ways of using the information, maybe extending it, and so forth, so that it becomes a de facto standard for the communication of library information in the Scheme community, so that it is easier for us to find the information we want and make use of it in the way we want to use it, as well as make our own work available to others in a convenient way. 23:49:04 And now, I'm off to eat. 23:49:08 arcfide: I'm sorry, but I don't follow any sensible line here. On one hand you're saying that you have no rules about meta-data and you defend that vigorously -- then your turn around and say that it's important for computers to be able to "understand that data". Computers by their nature are formal tools that need some formal rules on how data is used. 23:51:37 arcfide: The bottom line is that this vagueness is not going to help in getting your thing close to being any standard -- de facto or not. The absolutely first thing that you must do is make it crystal clear why library authors should use it, and why library users should use it. And by "clear" I definitely mean clearer than the above (which looks very self contraditcory to me). 23:51:54 Sorry if you mis understood. I don't know how I came accross as saying that there are no rules in the Descot system about how library information is encoded or how it can be interpreted back to be useful, but such rules surely do exist. What doesn't exist (obviously, I thought) is some set of rules saying that computers in general have to treat the files like that. 23:53:02 arcfide: Fail to do that, and my guess would be that you'd in for a disappointment. Obviously that's all just my opinion, feel absolutely free to ignore what I say. 23:53:05 Of course there are rules for Scheme programs, but that doesn't mean a program has to obey them. That's all I meant. 23:53:18 eli: Of course, I agree with you. 23:54:33 Anyways, I have to eat now. 23:54:50 eli: Thanks, good questions. 23:55:41 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:59:49 -!- dysinger [n=tim@216.112.110.172.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit []