00:00:02 -!- armon [n=armon@114.28.192.170] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:03:23 So I have two tcp connections, each with two ports. I want to just pipe input to output and output to input. Yet doing two 'copy-port's in two threads causes no data transfer and the whole thing just hangs. 00:06:33 hmm 00:06:41 maybe just do one copy-port? 00:07:08 presumably you don't want the input of B to come from the output of A, while also having the input of A coming from the output of B. 00:07:14 That would be circular :) 00:08:16 -!- rudybot [n=luser@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:09:56 -!- bsmntbombdood [n=gavin@97-118-134-159.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:10:34 bsmntbombdood [n=gavin@97-118-134-159.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 00:12:27 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has left #scheme 00:13:39 synx: did you remember to flush? 00:13:48 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has joined #scheme 00:14:38 eww 00:15:01 -!- deat [n=deat@fac34-8-88-172-174-215.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 00:15:20 uh, I just used copy-port 00:15:46 *offby1* predicts we will soon hear a request to paste the code 00:15:51 I do want the input of B to come from the output of A, while also having the input of A come from the output of B. It's a blind proxy. 00:16:53 -!- Judofyr [n=Judofyr@ti211310a341-0219.bb.online.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:20:59 meh, it must be something else. My test case pipes the data through just fine. 00:21:20 *eli* was waiting for a better joke from offby1 00:21:22 https://synx.us.to/code/scheme/blind-pipe.ss 00:23:10 synx: Is there anyone waiting for the thread to terminate? 00:23:53 synx: And when you sort that out, you still need to flush -- either that, or close the ports. 00:26:48 synx: you've seriously got them hooked up like that? Isn't that ... uh ... entirely circular? What am I missing? 00:27:22 -!- athos_ [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 00:27:41 offby1: he has different port numbers. 00:28:14 oh 00:28:32 orgy__ [n=ratm_@pD9FFCF8A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 00:29:23 BTW, I have some old (but working) code around to do port forwarding. 00:29:59 It's amusing how I can write a scheme program to do the forwarding faster than it takes me to figure out how to setup tunnels with ssh. 00:30:31 eli: nothing's waiting no, but maybe I do need to flush yes... 00:31:17 synx: guess what happens if nothing is waiting for the thread, and the main thread is done? 00:33:04 The main thread isn't done heh. I did make sure of that at least. 00:33:19 Currently it just drops back into drscheme 00:33:31 Or loops on a yield when I'm not testing it. 00:35:56 -!- kniu [n=kniu@OVERLORD.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:36:19 kniu [n=kniu@CMU-284828.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 00:43:49 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:44:06 -!- orgy_ [n=ratm_@pD9FFE333.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:45:46 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B0566FD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:57:05 kadaver_ [n=hask@h18n4c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #scheme 00:57:20 how much code is it to implement a basic lisp interpreter in asm? 00:57:42 HG` [n=wells@91.111.13.16] has joined #scheme 00:59:00 let's ask Dr McCarthy; I think he's done that 00:59:27 well he is porbably gone fishing 00:59:45 -!- rudybot_ is now known as rudybot 00:59:47 what functions do you need? apply, cons, cdr? 00:59:54 -!- mookid [i=mookid@ROFL.name] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:00:22 I can't remember if you need apply; I suspect you do 01:00:39 pretty sure Paul Graham has written about the bare minimum 01:00:54 wrldpc_ [n=worldpea@pool-173-48-214-204.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 01:01:13 -!- wrldpc [n=worldpea@pool-173-48-214-204.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:01:54 "If you design a language that has car, cdr, cons, quote, eq, cond, and a notation for functions made of conses, then you've designed a dialect of Lisp" -- www.paulgraham.com/arcll1.html 01:02:41 Haha, I think I would disagree with that. 01:02:49 kadaver_: wow, you're everywhere :) 01:04:52 Hey, does anyone have a really short, elegant example of a solution to the following problem: define a procedure SELF which, when applied to zero arguments, will return itself in s-expression/list form. 01:05:59 arcfide pasted "My Version of SELF" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79197 01:07:10 -!- HG` [n=wells@91.111.13.16] has quit [Client Quit] 01:07:30 -!- hedgee is now known as cky 01:09:39 kadaver [n=hask@h18n4c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #scheme 01:09:45 zbigniew annotated #79197 "self and loathing in las vegas" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79197#1 01:09:52 -!- kadaver_ [n=hask@h18n4c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:10:15 arcfide: a quine? 01:10:43 sounds quineaceous indeed 01:11:33 "quinine" 01:11:55 Ursine 01:12:05 *offby1* mixes a gin and tonic 01:13:06 incubot: bros before hos; newlines before braces 01:13:09 What do you call {} ? We call them braces 01:13:44 kadaver: dream scheme is 6k lines... but it's "only" r4rs. 01:16:37 and as offby1 said: http://www.paulgraham.com/rootsoflisp.html 01:16:50 *sladegen* waits for the sun. 01:17:16 incubot: how many shes does it take to screw in a he? 01:17:19 How do we tell if shes a witch? 01:17:29 Quinoa 01:17:44 incubot: bewitched. 01:18:59 meanburrito920_ [n=John@76-217-6-100.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 01:19:28 p1 annotated #79197 "quine" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79197#2 01:22:00 saccade [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-74-28.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 01:27:10 I have not heard the term quine. 01:29:36 eli annotated #79197 "another one" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79197#3 01:29:38 mreggen [n=mreggen@cm-84.215.50.79.getinternet.no] has joined #scheme 01:31:31 arcfide: it comes from St Thomas Aquinas 01:32:17 -!- meanburrito920_ [n=John@76-217-6-100.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:32:32 No. 01:32:45 lol 01:35:26 lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has joined #scheme 01:38:24 "The unusual thing about Lisp-- in fact, the defining quality of Lisp-- is that it can be written in itself. " Paul Graham 01:38:38 all programming languages can be written in themselves right? 01:38:42 arcfide: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quine_%28computing%29 01:40:14 eli: Well, that kind of is what I was playing with, but, it's not a procedure SELF. That's cool anyways. 01:40:18 Thanks for the ideas, guys. 01:40:39 arcfide: I have drawers full of them. 01:41:40 arcfide: Say the next sentence twice: "I will say the next sentence twice". 01:46:54 sladegen annotated #79197 "a monstroCity" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79197#4 01:48:17 eli annotated #79197 "Uglier" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79197#5 01:48:59 sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-73-127.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 01:57:47 -!- mreggen [n=mreggen@cm-84.215.50.79.getinternet.no] has quit ["leaving"] 01:59:28 -!- kadaver [n=hask@h18n4c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:59:38 kadaver [n=hask@81.230.99.18] has joined #scheme 02:03:02 all programming languages can be written in themselves right? 02:03:04 "The unusual thing about Lisp-- in fact, the defining quality of Lisp-- is that it can be written in itself. " Paul Graham 02:04:21 since we're quoting: Scheme hackers are a fringe group of the archetypical fringe group: Lisp hackers. -- Joe Marshall 02:04:22 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-29-178.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:04:23 mreggen [n=mreggen@cm-84.215.50.79.getinternet.no] has joined #scheme 02:05:03 kadaver: Are you looking for a reason for the quote? 02:05:08 kadaver: scheme can be written reasonably elegantly in itself 02:05:11 unlike most languages 02:05:22 :P 02:06:06 kadaver: are you trying to measure the difference between #scheme and #haskell by posting the exact same thing to both? :P 02:06:09 pchrist_ [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 02:06:27 no just getting an answer 02:06:43 like chessguy said over there -> he probably meant code as data 02:07:34 im all x86 now anyway, writing tight loops 02:08:57 kadaver: No, it's what pumpkin_ said. 02:08:59 -!- pumpkin_ [n=pumpkin@pat9.border1-cfw.dartmouth.edu] has quit ["Leaving..."] 02:09:25 "code as data" can be done in any language, except with much more pain. 02:11:40 well pumpkin also said it can eb done in any language 02:12:11 you can write each language in itself, must be possible.write a parser, generate the code. 02:12:51 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:12:53 subversus [n=elliot@rain.angrycoder.org] has joined #scheme 02:13:14 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@92.36.217.113] has joined #scheme 02:15:41 -!- lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:15:49 kadaver: Yes, that's true -- but note the "elegantly". 02:16:38 As an exercise, implement C in itself, then implement Scheme in itself. 02:18:01 ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #scheme 02:18:06 *offby1* is opposed to exercise on general principles 02:20:08 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:20:47 xwl [n=user@114.246.65.219] has joined #scheme 02:22:03 -!- wrldpc_ [n=worldpea@pool-173-48-214-204.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:22:49 *cky* wants to implement Scheme in some assembly language "for boostrapping", then implement Scheme in itself. :-P 02:23:04 *cky* will not try to implement C (or C++, for that matter) in itself. :-P 02:24:27 cky: pretty sure it's been done ... "pre-scheme" ... 02:24:46 GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-236-161.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:24:51 I'm sure it's been done before too, but my specific aim is to implement specific optimisation strategies. 02:24:52 -!- GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-236-161.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:25:06 I especially want to study the JVM code in OpenJDK and try to implement some of those, in a Scheme context. 02:26:39 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:30:06 -!- orgy__ [n=ratm_@pD9FFCF8A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:30:20 wrldpc [n=worldpea@pool-173-48-214-204.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 02:31:00 -!- cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:31:29 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-208-138.karneval.cz] has quit [] 02:35:10 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #scheme 02:40:46 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has left #scheme 02:41:14 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.193] has joined #scheme 02:45:16 -!- kadaver [n=hask@81.230.99.18] has left #scheme 02:48:16 -!- underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has quit [] 02:51:37 tjafk2 [n=timj@e176221237.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 02:58:31 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:04:39 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #scheme 03:04:58 -!- mreggen [n=mreggen@cm-84.215.50.79.getinternet.no] has quit ["leaving"] 03:07:32 -!- tjafk1 [n=timj@e176209231.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:07:54 Lemonator [n=kniu@OVERLORD.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 03:13:01 -!- kniu [n=kniu@CMU-284828.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:16:34 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-242-114-22.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 03:20:17 allotrope [n=chatzill@c-67-161-219-3.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:20:19 lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has joined #scheme 03:24:06 -!- allotrope [n=chatzill@c-67-161-219-3.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.7/2009031309]"] 03:28:16 -!- luz [n=davids@189.122.121.232] has quit ["Client exiting"] 03:31:37 -!- CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-75-68-42-94.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:32:35 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-75-68-42-94.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:35:33 -!- maskd [n=maskd@unaffiliated/maskd] has quit ["fs"] 03:36:16 -!- xwl [n=user@114.246.65.219] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:36:22 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:36:33 -!- hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-242-114-22.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [] 03:38:49 louzer [i=louzer@nusnet-193-143.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has joined #scheme 03:40:17 -!- lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has quit ["leaving"] 03:40:36 hi. I am trying to write S, K & I combinators in scheme: http://pastie.org/458415 03:41:03 but I want scheme to treat (S x y z) as (((S x) y) z) 03:41:23 and treat (S x y) as ((S x) y) 03:41:31 how do i do that? 03:41:44 -!- ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:43:18 louzer: S should probably be a macro. I have no experience with them (yet!) but others on this channel do. :-) 03:43:49 hmm. yeah makes sense. 03:43:57 but never worked with macros before? 03:44:06 s#?#.# 03:44:19 Me neither. :-P 03:45:48 louzer: Which implementation are you using? 03:45:52 plt 03:46:04 louzer: In this case, look up `curry' 03:46:11 rudybot: doc curry 03:46:13 eli: your "http://tmp.barzilay.org/x.scm" sandbox is ready 03:46:20 eli: http://docs.plt-scheme.org/reference/procedures.html#(def._((lib._scheme%2Ffunction..ss)._curry)) 03:46:24 There. 03:46:27 -!- forcer [n=forcer@e179195224.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:46:34 or srfi-26... 03:46:52 No, srfi-26 won't work. 03:48:01 eli. thats elegant 03:48:16 never knew curry existed 03:48:34 -!- teiresias [n=user@ip68-12-115-220.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 03:48:42 It has issues, but in it's current form it's exactly what you need. 03:49:17 so i shud just curry my test program? 03:49:33 louzer: curry each of the functions. 03:49:52 As in: (define K (curry (lambda (x y) x))) etc 03:50:17 hah yeah of course 03:50:49 And of course you can easily make a curried lambda form with a macro 03:51:14 Something like (define-syntax-rule (clambda (x ...) body) (curry (lambda (x ...) body))) 03:52:18 I get "reference to undefined identifier: curry" 03:53:05 Are you using the "Module" language with `#lang scheme' at the top? 03:53:23 no I am using "Pretty Big" 03:53:32 they said it has everything from all schemes 03:54:00 I don't know who "they" are, but switch to the "Module" language and stick a `#lang scheme' at the top. 03:54:50 mmc [n=mima@cs169102.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 03:55:15 so # lang scheme means plt scheme? 03:55:52 It's the "default" language that gets you a lot of stuff. The new equivalent for what "Pretty Big" used to be before version 4 came out. 03:56:00 (And there's no space after the "#") 03:56:10 underspecified [n=eric@walnut.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 03:56:59 -!- underspecified [n=eric@walnut.naist.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 03:57:06 hmm interesting 03:57:51 mreggen [n=mreggen@cm-84.215.50.79.getinternet.no] has joined #scheme 03:58:16 eli. curry doesnt work: http://pastie.org/458422 03:58:23 I tried ((S I I I) K) and error 03:58:42 "procedure ... documents\sk.ss:12:9: expects 1 argument, given 3: # # #" 03:59:38 if I run (test) I get "procedure ... documents\sk.ss:4:9: expects 3 arguments, given 4: # # # #" 03:59:46 Ah, you also want curried applications then., 04:00:05 Just one minute. 04:01:43 when i first saw curry I thought it was for application 04:02:59 mmm...curry 04:03:08 :) 04:10:12 Poeir_ [n=Poeir@c-98-222-133-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:10:49 It requires more magic than I thought... 04:10:59 pumpkin_ [n=pumpkin@pat9.border1-cfw.dartmouth.edu] has joined #scheme 04:11:28 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #scheme 04:14:10 yes. 04:14:29 must write a new scheme language entirely 04:14:36 from scratch 04:15:07 Well, that would be the easy solution, I'm trying to have it in the same file. 04:15:24 heh 04:15:54 (I'm not joking, btw...) 04:15:58 it's possible to implement a sort of curry with just lambda, but (curry) does something a good deal more involved. 04:16:32 synx, yes my original pastie used lambda instead of curry 04:16:46 It continues to return a curried procedure even when you call it with arguments, until it accumulates enough arguments to call the actual procedure. I found that kind of tricky to do. 04:17:43 plus the new curry must restrict the amount of arguments to whatever's left, and error out if you provide too many positional ones, even if you don't have enough keyword arguments to complete it. 04:19:14 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 04:19:23 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 04:20:58 actually (S I) (S I I) and (S I I I) all evaluate without error but when I do ((S I I I) K) plt scheme tries to apply the result of (S I I I) on K and gives and says that it cant do that because K expects 1 argument. i.e. curry cant used curried procs as input. 04:21:30 s#used#use# 04:23:36 louzer: What is your test expression supposed to do? 04:24:08 test might generate church numerals that are prime 04:24:28 How many? 04:24:42 i think it is infinite 04:25:15 Ugh... So that's why it got stuck... 04:25:24 wow so it ran n urs? wow 04:25:31 *on 04:25:40 how did u do it? 04:25:48 Just a second... 04:26:00 *louzer* waits eagerly 04:26:05 hmm 04:26:11 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-186-237-111.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:26:50 rudybot: init 04:26:53 eli: your "http://tmp.barzilay.org/x.scm" sandbox is ready 04:26:58 rudybot: eval (curried-expr ((S I I I) K)) 04:26:58 eli: ; Value: # 04:27:06 rudybot: eval (define ((p x) y) (+ x y)) (curried-expr (p 1 2)) 04:27:06 eli: ; Value: 3 04:27:15 See that url. 04:27:39 The catch is that `curried-expr' is used for `curried-lambda' bodies, but it's not used for regular scheme code. 04:27:58 So this is why I used it explicitly in the above (and in `test' in that url). 04:28:14 -!- Pegazus [n=awefawe@host11.190-31-40.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:28:37 louzer: In any case, why are you doing this? 04:29:47 my ultimate goal is to explore evolution. 04:29:56 i study comp bio at school 04:30:02 computational biology 04:30:17 So how do you get from the lambda calculus to evolution? 04:30:57 because SKI calculus is combiantorially complete 04:31:03 So? 04:31:09 -!- Poeir [n=Poeir@c-98-222-133-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:31:12 i mean there are no illegal expressions 04:31:19 everything executes 04:31:21 Yes, yes, so? 04:31:43 so if we let these things evolve under certain selection pressures 04:32:00 we might be able to reach some solution 04:32:09 You mean the "artificial life" thing? Or whatever it's called? 04:32:18 neilv [n=user@dsl092-071-030.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #scheme 04:32:27 yes it is a bit like cellular automata 04:32:32 heh 04:32:43 with each S,K and I mutating 04:32:49 (I played with that in a distant past...) 04:32:54 hehe 04:32:59 you should throw Y in there ;) 04:33:11 Y can happen as a result of SK and I 04:33:14 So, first of all, not all expressions execute -- omega will still get you stuck in an infinite loop. 04:33:26 omega? 04:33:34 ((lambda (x) (x x)) (lambda (x) (x x))) 04:33:38 amca [n=amca@CPE-121-208-82-6.qld.bigpond.net.au] has joined #scheme 04:34:04 oh my.. hmm so what, some codes dont halt.. 04:34:13 i wud just put a time limit or something 04:34:16 -!- bsmntbombdood [n=gavin@97-118-134-159.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:34:22 Second, you might need the language to be lazy too, if you want it to "get stuck less". 04:34:32 what if it was just taking a long time to compute the answer to the universe? 04:34:48 louzer: Let me give you a few pointers... 04:34:49 -!- amca [n=amca@CPE-121-208-82-6.qld.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:34:50 wouldn't you feel bad if you killed true AI because your time limit was too short? 04:34:52 pumpkin_ yeah :( 04:35:04 ackermann functions are like that 04:35:12 got answers but takes for ever 04:35:41 louzer: First, have a look at the sandbox library -- this would be very useful if you want to limit time and space in running these things. 04:36:04 louzer: Otherwise an inifinite loop that comsumes space will not be a pleasant experience. 04:36:07 That's at http://docs.plt-scheme.org/reference/Sandboxed_Evaluation.html 04:36:27 hah cool 04:36:41 are u a plt developer? 04:36:49 (yes, that too) 04:37:17 Second, in my experience, the evolution process tends to be very slow, so speed is important -- all of these hacks have their overhead, and you will most likely want to run things fast, so something other than SKI might be better. 04:38:09 u mean more combinators? 04:38:44 No, I mean just bite the bullet and generate random expressions in a language that doesn't need currying and laziness. 04:39:17 Anyway, my third point is that there is something called the X combinator -- but I can't find any references now. 04:39:26 X? 04:39:30 never heard of it 04:39:52 It is a combinator that can be used to implement S, K & I -- which reduces your "instruction set" to one. 04:40:16 you can look up OISC :P 04:40:37 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_instruction_set_computer) 04:40:41 ah yes there is x.xSK 04:40:47 In other words, since X is the only thing in all forms, you can just get rid of it and leave only the parens -- so your random programs are now basically random strings of balanced characters. 04:40:57 sounds like unlambda 04:41:19 yup 04:41:48 there is iota 04:41:48 (I don't remember if unlambda is related or not, and too lazy to find out now...) 04:41:53 which has only one cominator 04:42:13 http://barker.linguistics.fas.nyu.edu/Stuff/Iota/ 04:42:38 louzer: but remember the speed issue -- using a single command means even more overhead, which means slower execution, which means less time for training 04:43:15 That's basically why I think that generating "more normal" scheme code will be a better idea. 04:43:36 In any case, my last point is some lecture notes that I have on the lambda calculus -- 04:43:45 but i get a feeling that scheme has lots of redundancy 04:44:06 if i need to get rid of all that X combinator wud be the best 04:44:15 only 2 symbols 04:44:19 X and no X 04:44:24 1 and 0 04:44:39 (I'll get to that in a second) 04:45:28 the important point is that I provide my students with a language that is close to what you want -- it's implicitly curried, and it's lazy, and it doesn't have any builtins except for `lambda', function application, and some things for convenience. 04:46:13 The relevant notes are at http://csu660.barzilay.org/lec12.txt -- look for "schlac" for the language 04:46:43 and see the course page (at csu660.barzilay.org) for how to install the course thing in drscheme. 04:47:00 bsmntbombdood [n=gavin@97-118-134-159.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 04:47:21 (wait checking) 04:47:35 And back to the language taht you're using: you should use some subset, of course, you don't want your random programs to start making network connections, or delete system files... 04:47:59 But regarding redundancy -- IMO it is a *good* thing to have for what you want to do with it. 04:48:00 yeah :) 04:48:06 oh ok 04:48:19 For example, integers are a good concept for computation, 04:48:49 so -- if you use a problem that requires integers with random SKI programs, then you'll be waiting for them to learn how to encode numbers. 04:49:07 integer feel right in our minds 04:49:15 But, if you're using a language *with* integers (and arithmetic operations), then that part is not needed. 04:49:35 hmm yeah 04:49:38 That's exactly my point -- we don't need to have integers as a built-in tool in code, but it's very helpful. 04:50:05 but universe doesnt use integers does it? 04:50:10 Same goes for other things -- for example, if you want to do stuff with strings, and use a language with only integers, you'll be waiting for your programs to learn how to encode strings. 04:50:26 The universe certainly does use integers... 04:50:50 (eg, any question about the universe that begins with "how many".) 04:51:11 all i see in biochemistry are combinators 04:51:19 things that change things 04:51:32 So you'd probably hope that your programs will learn things like arithmetics, but in reality this will take a *long* time to learn. 04:51:46 yes i hope that 04:52:14 Right, so using a bigger language will mean -- IMO -- faster learning times for problems you'll want to solve. 04:52:41 hmm yeah 04:52:55 That was at least my lesson from the whole thing. I was very excited about it initially, and eventually got disillusioned... 04:54:12 hmm 04:55:26 i feel the answer to life, the universe and everything is going to be something stupid like an X combinator 04:55:41 even freewill 04:55:51 will be reduced 04:56:00 to deterministic processes 04:59:13 -!- davidad [n=me@cpe-24-210-220-246.woh.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:59:44 *louzer* is hungry for food. brb 04:59:51 davidad [n=me@cpe-24-210-220-246.woh.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 05:01:31 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:01:43 -!- ventonegro [n=alex@c9519269.virtua.com.br] has quit [] 05:02:14 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 05:02:52 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 05:09:04 -!- Lemonator [n=kniu@OVERLORD.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:09:24 Lemonator [n=kniu@CMU-284828.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 05:12:02 so fanfiction.net has an RSS feed 05:12:02 YES I KNOW 05:12:41 But it's a really vexing problem for me. I wanted to make a little program so my friend could catch up on fanfics without having to navigate the horrible site. The sheer volume of fics though slows my database to a crawl even with just one series. 05:13:02 my database-fu is not strong 05:13:36 I'm just wondering what the right application approach would be. It just grew into a complicated monster unexpectedly. 05:15:02 Ended up with a separate background process checking the feed, a second process running a mini web server to read them with, a third process dedicated to the database, and a fourth process to rate authors up or down. (mostly down) 05:15:26 -!- Lemonator [n=kniu@CMU-284828.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:16:00 kniu [n=kniu@CMU-284828.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 05:17:40 And a 5th process monitoring the state of the other 4 and restarting them if necessary. And a 6th process for recording logs generated by the processes... and a 7th process to just import one story by itself... yeah it's just nuts. 05:19:34 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-84.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:21:46 -!- gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has left #scheme 05:28:34 cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:34:10 -!- kniu [n=kniu@CMU-284828.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:36:52 kniu [n=kniu@OVERLORD.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 05:38:56 -!- X-Scale2 [i=email@2001:470:1f08:b3d:0:0:0:2] has quit [Client Quit] 05:39:12 X-Scale [i=email@2001:470:1f08:b3d:0:0:0:2] has joined #scheme 06:01:52 dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-110-190.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 06:07:00 -!- pumpkin_ [n=pumpkin@pat9.border1-cfw.dartmouth.edu] has quit ["Leaving..."] 06:19:27 pumpkin_ [n=pumpkin@Aeropuerto.Kiewit.Dartmouth.EDU] has joined #scheme 06:21:17 ejs 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Uuuuund weg."] 10:48:55 luz [n=davids@189.122.121.232] has joined #scheme 10:49:02 -!- p1dzkl [i=p1dzkl@cl-88.cph-01.dk.sixxs.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:49:15 mad_muppet [n=pure@219.89.150.16] has joined #scheme 10:50:05 benny99 [n=bebenny@84.134.189.94] has joined #scheme 10:51:06 -!- djarvelis is now known as Jarvellis 10:54:27 geckosenator [n=sean@c-71-237-94-78.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 10:55:11 hi guys I am trying to load a file http://rafb.net/p/DwWIPD20.html into scheme but Im getting an error the object () passed as first argument to car is not the correct type .. it works fine if I enter it manually 10:59:03 (car '()) works fine ? 11:01:44 benny: thats nowhere in my file 11:02:00 99! 11:02:00 where is the problem in your file ? 11:02:10 ! 11:02:51 I dont know where the problem is .. it works ok if I enter it in one line at a time 11:08:21 (car (cdr (cdr (car llst)))) ; here 11:09:11 do you want to figure that out yourself ? 11:10:24 mad_muppet: ? 11:11:04 benny: yeah I was playing around and Im tryin to load it as a file 11:11:28 k :] 11:11:49 mad_muppet: you might want to highlight benny99 so he doesn't have to check the window all the time by himself 11:12:10 benny: like this? 11:12:15 no, that's me 11:12:34 soz didnt realise that theres two of ya ..:D 11:12:39 ;-) 11:16:18 benny99:just trying to get my head around the car cdr thingitll be cons next .. 11:24:30 RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@92.36.163.53] has joined #scheme 11:30:00 mad_muppet: don't know why csi does not print what it evaluates - http://rafb.net/p/hItNf944.html <-- maybe this is some help 11:30:29 mad_muppet: ups, missing "(d" at the beginning :[ 11:32:19 benny99: k Ill go have a look at that thanks 11:36:54 zbrown [n=rufius@unaffiliated/zbrown] has joined #scheme 11:37:30 BW^- [n=Miranda@151.80.70.174] has joined #scheme 11:39:07 does anyone here understand perfectly how FrTime performs evaluation of conditional stuff? 11:39:15 it makes some kind of depth analysis stuff, and i'm thinking of how the depth is calculated 11:39:16 mad_muppet: http://rafb.net/p/gnnTwT44.html <- more convenient 11:42:12 eli: around? 11:43:16 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@92.36.217.113] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:43:25 benny99:thanks for the help .. gonna have to catch some sleep though so Im off 11:44:34 -!- mad_muppet [n=pure@219.89.150.16] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:45:12 -!- foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 11:47:35 -!- cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:48:33 orgy_ [n=ratm_@pD9FFFBF1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 11:50:37 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 11:50:41 anyone? 11:51:42 BW^-: use the force, read the source, luke? 11:53:51 sladegen: the source is a bit distorted in relation to my purposes, i think 11:53:56 http://pre.plt-scheme.org/plt/collects/frtime/frp-core.ss etc 11:54:33 orgy__ [n=ratm_@pD9FFC8D1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 11:56:47 -!- orgy__ [n=ratm_@pD9FFC8D1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:59:21 foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 12:00:25 well i only have old 3.x plt version but if you really, really want i could try reading its source for you =) 12:02:57 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-183-106.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:03:37 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-183-106.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 12:06:44 -!- elfor [n=johanfre@85.8.2.11.static.se.wasadata.net] has quit [] 12:09:00 sladegen: perhaps there would be a point in this. 12:09:12 i know gambit very well and its internals OK, and plt not at all 12:09:14 -!- orgy` [n=ratm_@pD9FFCF8A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:09:32 sladegen: as i understand it, the depth is calculated in http://pre.plt-scheme.org/plt/collects/frtime/mzscheme-core.ss . 12:10:02 sladegen: i'm trying to build myself a conceptual understanding of what's needed to make an of implementation close-to-FrTime. 12:10:30 sladegen: while FrTime wraps the entire language environment for you, i just want a macro like (reactive (reactive-code)) that runs reactive stuff 12:10:45 perhaps even multiple instances of the reactive engine 12:10:46 i.e. 12:10:50 (define engine (make-reactive-engine)) 12:10:55 (reactive engine (reactive-code)) 12:11:08 or call it "run-reactive" rather than "reactive" if you will 12:11:13 -!- orgy_ [n=ratm_@pD9FFFBF1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 12:12:01 -!- benny99 [n=bebenny@84.134.189.94] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 12:12:06 sladegen: i see there's a "frp:if" in mzscheme-core.ss , perhaps it contains all the necessary stuff 12:12:20 however i must admit i don't understand it, it seems to me it doesn't do anything :} 12:12:38 such beautiful weather outside ;} 12:12:44 hehe 12:12:47 what do you mean? 12:13:43 don't feel like? 12:13:45 elfor [n=johanfre@85.8.2.11.static.se.wasadata.net] has joined #scheme 12:14:09 i'm guessing if you know gambit's "erlangy" stuff already you'll be better off yourself figuring plt's magic from reading the source. 12:14:43 by "plt's magic", do you mean plt internals, or simply the frtime sources? 12:15:09 both, i suppose. i'm not "plter" either. 12:15:15 aha 12:15:19 well ok, thx :) 12:16:10 -!- LobsterMan_AFK is now known as LobsterMan 12:26:26 -!- elfor [n=johanfre@85.8.2.11.static.se.wasadata.net] has quit [] 12:30:59 -!- davidad [n=me@cpe-24-210-220-246.woh.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:34:49 azharcs [n=azharcs@59.96.207.239] has joined #scheme 12:43:20 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.193] has left #scheme 12:44:05 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has joined #scheme 12:47:48 -!- azharcs [n=azharcs@59.96.207.239] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 12:53:32 -!- geckosenator [n=sean@c-71-237-94-78.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:09:18 Anyone play with descot? 13:11:38 Judofyr [n=Judofyr@c349BBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has joined #scheme 13:11:44 -!- Judofyr [n=Judofyr@c349BBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:11:58 Judofyr [n=Judofyr@c349BBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has joined #scheme 13:29:36 gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has joined #scheme 13:36:42 higepon584 [n=taro@FLH1Ama216.tky.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 13:45:42 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:00:51 synthase [n=synthase@68.63.19.212] has joined #scheme 14:04:41 -!- louzer [i=louzer@nusnet-193-143.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:17:03 -!- hedgee is now known as cky 14:17:38 sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-31-23.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 14:19:28 ct2rips [n=ct2rips@blfd-4db0eb46.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #scheme 14:22:59 eli: around? 14:25:17 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw261071.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 14:30:40 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-183-106.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:30:48 about? 14:30:59 -!- wrldpc [n=worldpea@pool-173-48-214-204.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 14:31:32 jewel [n=jewel@41.242.183.106] has joined #scheme 14:33:13 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-73-127.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:34:50 reprore__ [n=reprore@ntkngw261071.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 14:34:53 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw261071.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:35:47 darth_chatri [n=darth@59.95.10.142] has joined #scheme 14:37:23 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:37:50 minoru-kun [n=minoru@host-85-118-231-78.academ.org] has joined #scheme 14:47:10 Hello, folks! Are there any macro which evaluates body, and returns result of the first expression? I used to prog1 in Common Lisp :) 14:47:35 Some implementations call that `begin0'. 14:47:38 (google doesn't tells anything useful.) 14:48:50 -!- ttmrichter [n=ttmricht@219.140.250.126] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 14:54:34 Hm, and how about Guile? It raises `unbound variable' then i trying using it. 14:54:42 *than 14:54:49 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 14:54:51 *then :) 14:58:45 -!- Judofyr [n=Judofyr@c349BBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:00:01 underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 15:04:38 (define-syntax begin0 (syntax-rules () ((_ x y ...) (let ((r x)) y ... r)))) 15:04:39 -!- LobsterMan is now known as LobsterMan_AFK 15:04:52 Unless you want to support multiple values, then it's more complicated. 15:05:06 (MV makes everything more complicated.) 15:14:15 mmc [n=mima@cs169102.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 15:15:35 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:23:20 -!- BW^- [n=Miranda@151.80.70.174] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:24:32 teiresias [n=user@ip68-12-115-220.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #scheme 15:25:49 orgy` [n=ratm_@pD9FFC8D1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 15:27:08 thnx you :) 15:27:30 elderK [i=8b507b26@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-cb393f7a5903888f] has joined #scheme 15:27:34 Hey guys, 15:27:37 Can anyone here see me? 15:27:39 :P LAALALALALALAL 15:27:41 Come on, someone, poke me. 15:30:01 -!- elderK [i=8b507b26@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-cb393f7a5903888f] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 15:32:45 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 15:33:55 elderK: yes? 15:37:15 elderK: la la la 15:38:11 Judofyr [n=Judofyr@c349BBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has joined #scheme 15:59:40 -!- higepon584 [n=taro@FLH1Ama216.tky.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:01:05 underspecified__ [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 16:11:36 -!- reprore__ [n=reprore@ntkngw261071.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:13:45 borism_ [n=boris@195-50-200-111-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 16:18:16 -!- underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:18:42 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-200-111-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:20:49 -!- xwl [n=user@114.246.65.219] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:21:30 elfor [n=johanfre@85.8.2.11.static.se.wasadata.net] has joined #scheme 16:22:34 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-61.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 16:33:28 -!- Deformative [n=joe@71.238.45.45] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:46:45 -!- darth_chatri [n=darth@59.95.10.142] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:53:12 -!- zbrown [n=rufius@unaffiliated/zbrown] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:53:14 zbrown [n=rufius@70.99.184.110] has joined #scheme 16:56:26 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 16:58:10 -!- sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-31-23.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 17:00:15 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-31-23.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 17:04:04 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 17:10:03 -!- ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:10:33 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-92-148-234.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 17:12:12 -!- minoru-kun [n=minoru@host-85-118-231-78.academ.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:17:21 ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #scheme 17:24:53 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-150-254.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 17:27:22 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 17:27:25 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 17:27:48 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-68-92-148-234.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:28:24 -!- nothingHappens_ [n=nothingh@173-25-176-111.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:32:39 nothingHappens_ [n=nothingh@173-25-176-111.client.mchsi.com] has joined #scheme 17:32:55 wrldpc_ [n=worldpea@dhcp-0049609942-ff-f3.client.student.harvard.edu] has joined #scheme 17:58:56 BW^- [n=Miranda@151.80.70.174] has joined #scheme 17:59:12 eli: around? 17:59:21 anyone knows details of FrTime? 18:00:52 nope 18:01:07 ok 18:01:10 all's I know is: values change over time, in a truly disturbing fashion :) 18:01:56 It made an entertaining demo at the Scheme Workshop some six years ago, but I don't know anything about it or whether it's useful for anything. 18:05:00 -!- mreggen [n=mreggen@cm-84.215.50.79.getinternet.no] has quit ["leaving"] 18:06:35 Deformative [n=joe@71.238.45.45] has joined #scheme 18:08:47 Seems like it'd be nice for writing GUI programs. 18:13:13 arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-186-237-111.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 18:13:20 Woot! Petite Chez is Finally in OpenBSD. 18:14:46 "Petite Chez", a charming new bistro, just opened its doors in Berkeley, CA 18:15:19 hah 18:15:24 :-D 18:16:12 elias` [n=me@resnet-nat-001.ucs.ed.ac.uk] has joined #scheme 18:16:28 has anyone ever experimented with replacing all the parentheses in scheme/lisp-like languages with indentation? 18:16:44 nah 18:16:48 that's a silly idea 18:16:53 copumpkin: There was some kind of infix lisp and indentation thingy on CLS once. 18:16:54 nobody would ever do anything like that 18:16:58 lol 18:17:00 It's...nasty. 18:17:15 :) was just curious 18:17:21 I gotta admit: I don't mind the semantically-meaningful indentation in Python. 18:17:22 Hehe. 18:17:32 I don't even care about infix stuff 18:17:33 I _do_ mind that I can't whip up a new local scope 18:17:34 offby1: You, sir, are crazy. 18:17:38 arcfide: could be. 18:18:22 riastradh: for GUI:s , very useful 18:18:26 it also bothers me that I don't know how to, or even if I can, write, on one line, an expression that one normally writes on a couple of lines. 18:18:35 for certain live data processing, also very useful, perhaps not that implementation in itself but conceptually 18:28:00 -!- pfo_ [n=pfo@chello084114049188.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:28:12 I found I didn't mind python either once I got used to it 18:28:17 It's just another way to do stuff 18:28:55 I don't think it's superior. Just that it didn't bother me really. I'm all for strict code formatting anyway. 18:29:02 BW^-: Yes? 18:31:02 saccade [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-74-28.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 18:31:14 eli: do you happen to have really good insight into frtime? :) 18:31:44 i'm thinking about how the handling of conditionals primarily 18:31:49 the dynamic reconfiguration 18:31:55 -!- cky [n=cky@98.104.229.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:32:01 BW^-: No, I don't. 18:32:32 ok 18:32:34 BW^-: But I suspect that getting some form with frtime behavior will be pretty difficult. 18:32:56 how do you mean? 18:33:02 form with? 18:33:10 are there many FRP libs for scheme? 18:33:32 copumpkin: whore you :) 18:33:54 eli: you mean, difficult to get a real valuable behavior with frtime? 18:34:30 BW^-: Earlier you mentioned some `reactive' form, which will be used for reactive code -- doing that instead of a whole language will be difficult. 18:34:50 eli: why? 18:34:55 whore? :o 18:35:06 oh my. 18:35:08 who're i meant. 18:35:11 lol 18:35:21 -!- saccade [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-74-28.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 18:35:31 what kind of answer are you looking for? :P 18:35:40 XTL: ? 18:35:44 BW^-: You'll need a local override of basic things like `#%app' and variable references at the syntax level 18:35:54 copumpkin: no idea. 18:36:03 well, I'm pumpkin's dual 18:36:06 BW^-: And you'll need to deal with issues of marshalling values back and from the "normal" scheme world. 18:36:13 eli: why? 18:36:18 eli: #%app ??? 18:36:25 Yes, of course. 18:36:33 what's that? 18:36:49 i intend the implementation to be in gambit 18:37:05 copumpkin: so, like, if I give one of you an Academy AwardŽ you'll both share it 18:37:06 In that case your problems have just gone an order of magnitude higher. 18:37:24 *offby1* offers to help BW^- use regular expressions 18:37:27 not sure about that 18:37:34 it's more like I do things backwards 18:37:39 BW^-: `#%app' is the PLT implicit macro that appears for all function applications. 18:37:47 or he does things backwards, depending on how you look at it, I guess 18:37:57 eli: ok 18:38:01 BW^-: To get the reactive thing going, you need to propagate new values to all expressions that depend on these values. 18:38:03 offby1: ? 18:38:17 eli: why deal with marshalling values back and from the normal scheme world, i think one can just say that by convention they must not be changed. 18:38:27 eli: right 18:38:32 BW^-: For example, when you have (+ foo 2), then if `foo' itself is a "reactive" value, then changes to it should change the result of the `+' application. 18:38:45 right 18:38:55 however , only the values that are signals will be propagated. 18:38:58 To achieve this, frtime overrides `#%app' with it's own application form. 18:39:13 if inside the (reactive) form one uses a non-signal variable, then it will simply not automatically be updated. 18:39:13 If you can't do that, you will need one of two things: 18:39:36 (a) either come up with your own macro and use it for all function applications in reactive code (inconvenient), 18:40:11 (b) write some kind of a code walker that will crawl over reactive code and identify function applications, and do the syntactic transformation there (this will be difficult). 18:40:35 eli: i don't get your point currently. 18:40:59 eli: are you speaking about creating a way to ensure that regular scheme variables are not dumped into reactive code, 18:41:08 As for the marshaling -- as soon as you use some "signal value", the result will also be a signal -- and on the Scheme side it will not look like a simple value (as it does in the reactive side). 18:41:11 in a way that when they are changed, no signalling would be made? 18:41:31 Assuming that you need to actually use the reactive features, you will actually have to deal with such values. 18:41:42 i think i intend the (reactive) form to be without return value. 18:41:47 #!void once. 18:41:58 yes, i can do that inside the reactive form. 18:42:04 In that case the utility of such a tool is greatly reduced. 18:42:06 let's rename the reactive form to run-reactive for now. 18:42:19 (run-reactive (set-GUI-textbox-contents (+ epoch-time-seconds 3))) 18:42:32 (I'm not speaking of any concrete form, btw -- I use `quotes' for that.) 18:42:34 why? 18:42:54 BW^-: see the .signature on http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/85d15c93e56c5236 18:43:20 BW^-: Why what? 18:43:43 why is the utility of such a tool reduced if (run-reactive) doesn't pass a return value? 18:43:47 BW^-: And I don't see the point in the form that you mention above. 18:44:03 BW^-: Because you'll get a reactive world that cannot talk to the outside. 18:44:21 BW^-: To be useful, the reactive code needs to communicate with normal Scheme code -- 18:44:42 right 18:44:43 saccade [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-74-28.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 18:44:44 BW^-: Usually, you'll want to get values from the reactive world to scheme, and send values to it. 18:44:49 and it can do that by calling procedures outside it 18:45:06 in the example above, set-GUI-textbox-contents would be such a one 18:45:22 BW^-: In Scheme, like most FP languages, things can get nested too -- you'll want to pass a scheme function to reactive code and use a reactive function from scheme code. 18:45:40 kniu [n=kniu@OVERLORD.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 18:45:52 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #scheme 18:45:57 If `set-GUI-textbox-contents' is a scheme function, then it should be adapted to work on the signal value that it will get from (+ epoch-time-seconds 3) 18:45:57 right 18:46:05 this is quite easy to do 18:46:26 ..mixing in nesting i mean 18:46:35 adapted to work - no that should be able to do away with, no? 18:46:42 So the fact that your `run-reactive' form is limited to returning void values doesn't get you a discount in marshaling values between reactive code and scheme code. 18:47:22 right 18:47:25 -!- eli [n=eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has left #scheme 18:47:34 eli [n=eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 18:47:39 mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 18:48:05 -!- eli [n=eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has left #scheme 18:48:07 eli [n=eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 18:49:35 BW^-: In any case, that marshaling will be difficult to get, even more in a lcoalized fashing (ie, with a `run-reactive' form), and you get an additional PITA if you're dealing with a system that doesn't have things like `#%app' etc. 18:50:02 hmm. 18:50:15 I hope that gambit at least has a reasonable module and macro system these days, but I wouldn't bet on it -- not having one will add another layer of complexity. 18:50:21 let's see, the marshalling from normal scheme into reactive is done automatically by the run-reactive macro 18:50:41 gambit has a good module and macro system these days. 18:51:13 I mean not just some `defmacro' hack, and not using plain symbols for linking modules. 18:51:21 why is mashalling out a problem ? 18:51:53 That "automatically" you mention above is something that Greg spent an entire thesis on (and the few years that come with it) -- I don't know how you can dismiss that as something that you'll do easily. 18:53:07 the result was that he wrapped any (x y z) to (if (or (signal? y) (signal? z)) (make-signal (lambda () ...sometihng )) (x y z)) , no ? 18:53:19 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit ["omghaahhahaohwow"] 18:53:24 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #scheme 18:53:54 BW^-: I very much doubt that it's as simple as that. 18:53:58 and that is the totality of frtime's solution 18:54:06 BW^-: One thing about that is that performance would be terrible. 18:54:34 isn't that exactly the case with frtime? 18:54:44 BW^-: But if you feel that you can reduce that whole effort into 92 characters, then I'm happy for you -- implementing it will not be my headache. 18:54:58 :) 18:55:12 i don't. 18:55:25 BW^-: No, most of his work was how to optimize things, so you recalculate only what's needed. 18:55:39 BW^-: The least you should do before you start is read his thesis. 18:55:40 interesting. 18:55:59 [And other works from brown about reactive programming.] 18:57:09 eli: http://www.cs.brown.edu/~sk/Publications/Papers/Published/ck-frtime/paper.pdf right? 18:57:11 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/cuswen 18:57:20 eli: what more? 18:57:57 BW^-: see his homepage -- http://www.cs.brown.edu/~greg/ 18:58:18 Papers are good for a brief reading, but if you plan to do serious work about it, you better know the whole story. 18:58:30 ok 18:59:03 re more -- see the flapjax language (http://www.flapjax-lang.org/) which they developed after frtime -- that one is a javascript extension. 18:59:18 (So it defnitely needs to optimize code.) 19:00:03 Modius__ [n=Modius@adsl-68-92-148-234.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 19:00:57 i can imagine that flapjax is a completely other implementation than frtime , as javascript lacks first-class continuations 19:02:48 eli: in general i like frtime's model 19:02:55 I don't see how that's related -- AFAICT, frtime does not use continuations; doing so would be horribly slow, and in addition I don't think that continuations help in implementing frp. 19:02:56 it's very straightforward. 19:09:25 -!- elfor [n=johanfre@85.8.2.11.static.se.wasadata.net] has quit [] 19:13:36 jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-18.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 19:14:28 wrldpc [n=worldpea@c-65-96-165-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:15:39 -!- wrldpc_ [n=worldpea@dhcp-0049609942-ff-f3.client.student.harvard.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:16:50 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 19:17:23 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-92-148-234.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:19:15 *jcowan* unvanishes, looking about nervously for that dratted offby1, just in case. 19:19:37 *offby1* throws his dentures at jcowan 19:19:42 oops, wrong irker 19:19:52 got them dentures on a hair trigger. 19:20:20 So you say. 19:20:35 Just remember, if you set the spring-gun, the rules are the same as if you pulled the trigger yourself on the spot. 19:24:14 no way 19:24:19 I can't be responsible 19:28:14 Why not? 19:34:04 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-208-138.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 19:35:20 *offby1* glances around nervously. 19:37:05 *XTL* sets a trap 19:37:21 *jcowan* springs the trap to see what happens. 19:41:01 *offby1* calls 911 19:47:16 It's a-- it's a tra-- 19:47:22 *Daemmerung* can't say it 19:47:30 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:47:33 -!- copumpkin is now known as ackbar 19:47:35 it's a trap! 19:47:39 -!- ackbar is now known as copumpkin 19:47:41 there :) 19:47:44 *Daemmerung* implodes 19:47:52 elfor [n=johanfre@85.8.2.11.static.se.wasadata.net] has joined #scheme 19:53:15 jn [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 19:57:13 -!- HG` [n=wells@91.108.74.20] has quit [Client Quit] 19:57:26 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 19:58:55 ejs [n=eugen@141-159-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 20:00:15 HG` [n=wells@91.108.74.20] has joined #scheme 20:02:08 wow, shrunk up to the size of a raisin 20:02:40 Daemmerung shrivels like a raisin in the sun. 20:04:06 -!- ejs [n=eugen@141-159-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:04:26 was it the trap? 20:04:39 We'll never know now. 20:05:14 -!- HG` [n=wells@91.108.74.20] has quit [Client Quit] 20:07:59 you could _try_ opening it, but ... 20:08:03 that wouldn't be advisable 20:10:57 *jcowan* opens the trap again. 20:11:30 I'd say shut your trap 20:11:33 but that'd be rue 20:11:36 *rude 20:12:52 It could be a heisentrap and observing it would change its behaviour 20:13:23 *jcowan* shuts his pie hold 20:13:25 *hole 20:13:44 heh 20:14:00 that phrase is my wife's, and her sister's, all-time favorite 20:14:02 -!- saccade [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-74-28.dyn.mit.edu] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:14:25 although a "pie hold" sounds intriguing. It'd be much more capacious than a mere pie _hole_ 20:14:36 Mmm.. pie 20:14:42 meanburrito920_ [n=John@76-217-6-100.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 20:14:44 *offby1* imagines shipping containers full of pie 20:14:56 in fact, there's a shipping _company_ called PIE if I'm not mistaken. 20:15:38 http://www.gasolinealleyantiques.com/transportation/images/Trucks/truck-pie.JPG 20:15:39 so there 20:15:40 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/cpe5g3 20:15:45 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs169102.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:16:34 -!- ct2rips [n=ct2rips@blfd-4db0eb46.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Noch da, noch da ... Uuuuund weg."] 20:18:42 bsund [n=bsund@213.180.77.55] has joined #scheme 20:19:03 -!- jn [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 20:19:23 GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-236-161.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:20:33 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 20:22:11 ct2rips [n=ct2rips@blfd-4db0eb46.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #scheme 20:22:58 -!- wrldpc [n=worldpea@c-65-96-165-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:23:20 Should tea be steeped in an infuser, in a bag, or with free leaves? Discuss. 20:24:08 I use bags 'cause they're cheap and convenient. 20:24:22 I put 'em in one of those "French Press" coffee makers, and add boiling water. 20:24:30 an infuser seems like a nice balance 20:24:41 -!- GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-236-161.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:25:35 I will confess this has tempted me: http://www.amazon.com/Bodum-Assam-4-Cup-Tea-Press/dp/B00005LM0Z/ 20:25:36 (between convenience and not feeling overly processed) 20:25:59 HG` [n=wells@91.108.74.20] has joined #scheme 20:29:14 This is not a question of whether to buy crummy tea in large numbers of bags or whether to buy good tea in loose leaves. (Lipton is not remotely under question.) This is a question of what to do given some good tea leaves. 20:29:46 *shrug* 20:29:47 Mr-Cat [n=Mr-Cat@95-24-217-81.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 20:29:52 I done guv mah answer 20:30:08 I'd still use the french press regardless of whether the leaves were bagged or loose; or good or bad 20:30:16 But then I already _own_ it. 20:31:15 I can't say I'm a connoisseur, but the infuser does seem more convenient, and I'm not sure what benefit free leaves give (but would be happy to find out if there was one) 20:32:03 The leaves will be steeped more uniformly if left to drift freely in the pot; an infuser may cause the exterior leaves to be steeped more than the interior leaves. 20:32:31 I have asked Dorian but he has only replied "Uh-duh" as usual. 20:32:56 *gasp* 20:33:15 non-uniform steepage? IT WILL NOT STAND 20:33:16 hmm 20:33:43 if you put them right into the tea, you can't easily take them out when the tea is done 20:34:16 Pour it through a strainer into another pot. 20:34:25 i like the big metal-net-like inlays (what are those called?) that come with japanese wrought-iron tea pots 20:34:28 blind taste test is needed! 20:34:52 Double-blind taste test is needed! 20:35:02 And don't forget the control group that is given hot water to drink 20:35:11 lol 20:35:12 like the one on this image: http://www.mrskellystea.com/images/CastTeaPot.JPG 20:35:44 *copumpkin* feels inadequate with his regular teapot now 20:36:26 *Elly* has a fancy japanese water-heater 20:36:32 If you ignore their price, the wrought-iron pots are the best :) 20:37:27 Riastradh: You could make the leaves into a Tibetan-style tea brick 20:37:48 ecraven: How do you keep a wrought-iron teapot from rusting? 20:37:56 That's different. I'm talking about loose-leaf tea, not pu-erh. 20:38:02 jcowan: How do you separate the men from the boys? 20:38:09 offby1: By age. 20:38:10 *offby1* stifles self 20:38:13 aww 20:38:19 c'mon, you know the canonical answer 20:38:25 Pu-erh takes a different method of preparation altogether. 20:38:26 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 20:38:43 jcowan: It's lacquered on the inside, and has some kind of paint on the outside. Also you wash it out after each use with hot water, and dry it with a clean cloth 20:38:52 ecraven: Ah. 20:39:10 I gave up on lacquered teapots because of scale buildup 20:39:29 is there a tea (or insert appropriate greek stem here) -ology? 20:39:32 *jcowan* googles for the answer to offby1's question, which I did *not* know before. 20:40:24 *gasp* 20:40:26 -!- ct2rips [n=ct2rips@blfd-4db0eb46.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Noch da, noch da ... Uuuuund weg."] 20:40:34 I'm sure I left off an important qualifier in my original question 20:40:38 It would probably take at least a crowbar to separate me and Dorian personally, even if he is trying to mung the magazine next to the compute. 20:40:42 s/pute/puter 20:40:42 like "... from the boys at Google" or such 20:40:46 there ya go 20:41:15 If there's a Greek word for tea, copumpkin, it would be a modern one. 20:41:53 Riastradh: Even pu'er begins as loose tea leaves, though. 20:42:03 -!- npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has quit [] 20:42:06 wait, how *does* one "separate the men from the boys"? 20:42:19 Elly: WIth a crowbar, is the answer offby1 was looking for. 20:42:24 Oh 20:42:26 *nod 20:42:30 how does one separate the women from the girls? 20:42:43 wow, apparently the earliest record of tea in "the west" was 879, according to wikipedia 20:42:45 the joke doesn't work at all without the proper qualifier. I confess to failing to tell it properly 20:42:53 Elly: I don't know, but I think phallic objects can be ruled outE 20:42:58 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 20:43:08 hmm 20:43:11 I don't know either 20:43:33 *ecraven* can't find the correct word for "teology" 20:44:13 *jcowan* wonders if Modern Greek is a te-language or a cha-language 20:44:15 trouble is, the word "tea" isn't derived from Latin or Greek, so us Euro-Murriken nerds have trouble guessing 20:44:23 I think I have found an answer: http://www.theonion.com/content/news_briefs/men_boys_separated 20:44:28 jcowan: do languages cleave neatly into those two camps 20:44:29 ? 20:44:42 *offby1* smiles in anticipation of following that link 20:45:01 Well, English has both, but "tea" definitely dominates 20:45:25 "tea" if by land, but "char" if by sea 20:45:34 in my experience, in English, "Chai" simply means "pretentious, overpriced tea with stuff in it" 20:45:42 *offby1* slaps jcowan upside the haid 20:46:32 often spicy 20:47:17 Sorry, that was backwards 20:47:27 "char" if by land, but "tea" if by sea 20:47:39 this seems close: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/tsiology 20:47:47 "tsai" is tea in modern greek (reputedly) 20:47:55 starchild [n=ali@213.207.217.242] has joined #scheme 20:48:12 *jcowan* asks the OED 20:48:46 According to Meyer, Konversations-Lexikon, the first mention of it in Europe is due to the Portuguese in 1559 (under the name cha); chia is mentioned in Maffei's Historia Indica in 1588. Under the name te, thee, it was imported by the Dutch from Bantam (where brought by Chinese merchants from Amoy) c 1610; first known in Paris 1635, in Russia (by way of Tartary) 1638, in England about 1650-55. 20:48:51 O all-knowing OED, what sayest thou? 20:49:00 oh, too late 20:49:02 might be tsaiology too 20:51:41 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 20:52:11 ventonegro [n=alex@189.62.112.115] has joined #scheme 20:52:18 wow, that's so recent 20:52:24 wonder what they all drank before then 20:52:28 beer, probably. 20:52:31 morning, noon, and night. 20:52:32 Hot water with grit in it! 20:52:33 blood! 20:52:39 Boiled water, sometimes with a spot of milk, according to Goscinny et Uderzo. 20:52:57 Riastradh: I loved Asterix and Obelix too :) 20:53:28 But no word in English for tea-ology, at least not containing any recognizably related stem 20:54:19 google has several hits for "tsiology" 20:54:25 ology 20:54:29 Under CHAR n. 6: "1955 H. SPRING These Lovers fled Away 497, I thought of the thousands of cups o' char that batmen had produced at such moments as this." 20:54:31 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-61.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:55:32 *ecraven* likes "batmen" :P 20:56:14 the plural, of course, of Batman :D 20:58:41 tasseomancy? 21:00:45 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:02:39 OED shows no words in tasseo- 21:02:49 Batman has no plural 21:02:57 Unless you count Batman bin Suparman 21:03:17 *eli* wonders about the state of scheme, given such discussions... 21:03:31 eli: Batman is on our side. 21:03:32 Time for BOT ABUSE 21:03:52 *gnomon* mumbles something about tail call optimization and Guido van Rossum 21:04:03 that post of his was ridiculous 21:04:37 if he's going to be against something, he should know what it is before writing about it 21:05:17 Really? I don't think it was. He's a smart guy, and he clearly stated that he values maintaining expectations about stack traces more than he does about making Python implementations run well. 21:05:37 I'm very disappointed by the position he took with Python, but I don't think the decision was founded on ignorance. 21:06:39 The decision and the ignorance were both present, but mutually exclusive. 21:07:12 gnomon: some of his points seemed to imply that he thought TCO was only for recursion 21:07:19 gnomon: but maybe I read too much into it 21:07:56 eli, oh? How do you mean? 21:08:14 *offby1* sighs 21:08:17 I'm also not a fan of the "1000 stack frames are enough for everyone anyway" 21:08:32 I don't think it was an ignorant post at all 21:08:40 offby1, why so deep a sigh, sir? 21:08:43 We can say that the universe consists of a substance, and this substance we will call "atoms," or else we will call it "monads." Democritus called it atoms. Leibniz called it monads. Fortunately, the two men never met, or there would have been a very dull argument. -- Woody Allen 21:08:47 gnomon: Yes, there is some (vague) point for not TCO-ing, but if you read his post you'll see the ignorance. 21:09:01 gnomon: I've waded through 200 posts about this TCO stuff already 21:09:20 Allen should have added: This shows that Democritus lisped, whereas Leibniz haskelled. 21:09:28 eli, I did read the post; I saw shortsightedness, but... 21:09:36 jcowan: yep 21:09:41 offby1, ah, I'm sorry to be boring. I'm late to the party. 21:09:53 Stack traces aren't just for debugging, they are also for Java-style security. 21:10:32 It would have been better if GvR had spelled out the difference between tail recursion and general tail calls in advance. 21:10:34 gnomon: See the thread that offby1 is talking about for some highlights. 21:10:55 But generally, if A flips the bozo bit on B, and you defend B, A will just flip the bozo bit on you. Sigh. 21:11:09 :) 21:11:26 jcowan: I don't remember exactly, but according to GLS, security was not the issue. 21:11:38 Maybe not then, but it is now. 21:12:01 Not now too, security doesn't suffer from TCO. 21:12:14 There's also the fact that Python often calls C which often calls Python which ... 21:12:35 ... and even that does not stand in the way of TCO. 21:12:39 Chicken and Rhino have TCO, but that scenario will blow them up. 21:12:51 eli: Not in principle, no, but often in practice. 21:13:11 You can write a C compiler that does full TCO, but no one ha. 21:13:13 has. 21:14:06 I don't know what that means. If the call graph goes through a non-tail position, you consume stack space; foreign-code jumps are often not in tail position, therefore you can't assume a loop that involves jumping back and forth will run in limited space. 21:14:28 But TCO in itself has a value in a language that is not nullified by "we call C a lot". 21:14:35 pfo_ [n=pfo@chello084114049188.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #scheme 21:15:21 -!- starchild [n=ali@213.207.217.242] has left #scheme 21:15:37 I mean that many language features, such as dynamic scope, security-level setting a la Java, and monitor entry/exit make what appears to be a tail call not a tail call at all, since work must be done after the putative tail call returns. 21:15:53 What makes Scheme special is that every *apparent* tail call really is a tail call. 21:16:25 I have no idea what you mean by "appearance". Either an expression is or is not in tail calls. 21:16:31 s/calls/position/ 21:16:43 For special forms, you need to specify the conditions, of course. 21:17:14 For example, `let' in CL might not have its body in tail position if special variables are involved -- but that should be part of the specification of `let'. 21:17:21 (reagrdless of appearance.) 21:18:07 In the plt reference, for example, Matthew always specifies for various `with-*' and other callback-using functions whether the function is called in tail position or not. 21:19:06 -!- pfo_ [n=pfo@chello084114049188.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:19:47 Fair enough. 21:20:16 But this does not cover the case of a security-level-setting procedure, because they cannot be identified at compile time. 21:20:43 They leave a marker in their stack frame which is observable by called procedures. 21:21:00 Arguably this is bad language design, but it's the design Java has. 21:21:30 Right, but you can make a function that at runtime will avoid tail-calling an input function intentionally. 21:22:22 gnomon: http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=4550 was another amusing blurb, btw. 21:23:42 eli, ah, thanks. 21:25:04 *offby1* had always wondered why the PLT docs took pains to point out what was in tail position 21:25:53 In addition, Java has a primitive reify-stack function that when invoked reifies the stack. 21:26:03 the PLT docs have a very unique style about them 21:26:17 *mejja* laughs cruelly 21:26:21 *offby1* nods absently 21:26:33 to wit: 21:26:43 new Exception().getStackTrace() 21:26:56 Elly! You know better. 21:27:03 Note that the stack is reified when an exception is created, not when it is thrown. 21:27:13 I know better than what? 21:27:33 Something either is or isn't unique. 21:27:46 sako [i=424b4ee4@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-6f0da20ab71a37bb] has joined #scheme 21:27:46 *sigh* 21:27:49 I dispute your claim! 21:27:54 *offby1* kicks gnomon under the table 21:28:00 Ow 21:28:05 I deserved that. 21:28:07 *Elly* did not realize there was a table 21:28:07 pedantry is SO 20-th century 21:28:13 Elly: stick around, kid, etc. 21:28:15 hi all, i am using DrScheme for a research project I am doing for class. Is there a way to show the time it takes for a function to complete? 21:28:28 rudybot: doc time 21:28:30 *offby1: your scheme sandbox is ready 21:28:30 *offby1: http://docs.plt-scheme.org/reference/time.html#(form._((lib._scheme%2Fprivate%2Fmore-scheme..ss)._time)) 21:28:30 a wrist watch 21:28:33 jcowan: But that could be done just as well with TCO, you would get different stacks of course. 21:28:34 that too 21:28:35 I'm used to conceptualizing channels as three-dimensional spaces of infinite extent 21:28:43 sako: follow the link rudybot gave 21:29:04 rudybot: father time 21:29:04 *offby1: eh? Try "rudybot: help". 21:29:07 rudybot: mark time 21:29:08 *offby1: eh? Try "rudybot: help". 21:29:13 forward into the past! 21:29:47 *rudybot* 's jaw slackens 21:29:59 concept-u-what now? 21:30:11 dint know he _had_ a jaw 21:30:22 didn't know rudybot had a gender 21:30:59 hmm.... Guido seems a bit... clueless about recursion 21:31:19 lol 21:32:58 eli: That's equivalent to saying I could do div with floating-point division, it's just that I'd get different results. 21:33:36 TC*O* cannot be added to Java as it stands, because it will cause certain operations to get different results than they get today, precisely because the dynamic call chain is reifiable. 21:33:37 Elly: I believe he inherited his gender 21:33:43 ah, I see 21:34:00 offby1, so, the usual way then? 21:34:07 No. 21:34:08 gnomon: usual for bots, I suppose 21:34:14 Most people don't inherit their gender at all. 21:34:40 jcowan, I was referring to TRON, actually. :D 21:34:42 they tend to inherent one parent's gender 21:34:45 although not always 21:34:54 ;) 21:35:06 I don't know what genders my parents are or I'd comment on that :P 21:36:01 Dorian just finished his vegetable chicken soup. 21:36:08 Dorian? 21:36:19 i.e., I'm a guy; he's a guy. 21:36:22 That's how it works. 21:36:26 oh, okay 21:36:29 offby1 i read the time page i can't get what i need to do to make it work.. 21:36:38 rudybot: eval (time (+ 3 2)) 21:36:39 *offby1: ; Value: 5 21:36:40 *offby1: ; stdout: "cpu time: 0 real time: 0 gc time: 0\n" 21:36:42 Sean Palmer is a guy, but phenny is decidedly female 21:36:47 sako: not much to it, really 21:36:57 rudybot: eval (time (sleep 1)) 21:36:58 *offby1: ; stdout: "cpu time: 0 real time: 1001 gc time: 0\n" 21:37:31 Even when she's masquerading as oltrac. 21:37:36 ah 21:37:38 aweseom 21:37:42 is that in nanoseconds? 21:39:26 jcowan: re "cannot be added to Java ... the dynamic call chain is reifiable" -- that's a tautology that doesn't need stack reification. 21:39:44 sako: milliseconds 21:39:47 see the docs 21:41:32 thanks offby1 21:42:59 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-153-103.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 21:45:03 -!- BW^- [n=Miranda@151.80.70.174] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:46:10 eli: I don't follow you 21:46:32 lug [n=chatzill@nat0.teiher.gr] has joined #scheme 21:46:36 it's not tautological to say that a language which exposes the reified dynamic chain to the caller cannot do TCO. 21:46:36 There will be observable differences even if there was no stack reification. 21:46:50 wow, lotta negatives in that. 21:46:52 *offby1* parses 21:47:06 eli: In the sense that formerly invalid programs become valid, yes. 21:47:29 And a language that does have TCO can still have reified stacks. So the two points are unrelated. 21:47:45 But in that case *stack* is not synonymous with *dynamic call chain* 21:48:08 Sure it is. 21:48:13 Chicken has a stack, but no representation of the dynamic call chain. 21:48:15 -!- bsmntbombdood [n=gavin@97-118-134-159.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:48:25 -!- lug is now known as jtsagata 21:48:40 -!- jtsagata is now known as gtsagata 21:48:55 msg nickserv register 123qwe 21:48:58 The definition of "the dynamic call chain" becomes different. 21:49:18 gtsagata: um, whoops 21:49:19 :P 21:49:32 gtsagata: can I use that password too? 21:49:33 eli: You are beating the air. 21:49:43 jcowan: great phrase 21:49:44 lol ;-) 21:49:46 sounds very 19th-century 21:50:25 "Your language doesn't support inexact numbers." "Sure it does. It's just that the definition of 'inexact' is different; it means 'exact'." 21:50:55 -!- elfor [n=johanfre@85.8.2.11.static.se.wasadata.net] has quit [] 21:51:00 jcowan: I don't know what you mean by that. The decision to equate "stack" with expressions like "call" gives one definition of what a "dynamic call chain" is. For example, in most languages, this will exlude arithmetic operators from appearing on this chain. 21:51:51 s/exlude/exclude/ 21:51:58 offby1: 1 Corinthians 9:26 in the KJV says: "I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air" 21:52:03 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 21:52:03 (i.e. shadow-boxing) 21:52:32 huh 21:52:56 More modernly: 21:53:00 "That is the way I run, with a clear goal in mind. That is the way I fight, not like someone shadow boxing." 21:53:13 *sladegen* calls the crusade, stack up soldiers! 21:53:37 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:53:53 The question with operators is whether they count as procedure calls. In C, they do not; in C++, it depends on static typing; in Python, it depends on dynamic typing. 21:54:43 More dude-like:"That is the way we roll" 21:54:51 The point is that a procedure in Java expects to be able to recover information about its caller (and it's caller's caller, etc.) without reference to whether it was tail-called or not. 21:54:51 In this case you implicitly equate "procedure calls" with "things that appear on a reified stack chain". 21:55:06 this is the way we unroll! 21:55:11 *offby1* slaps copumpkin upside the haid 21:55:15 This is the way we roll dem bones! 21:55:17 jcowan: I think that I know what the confusion is. 21:55:20 copumpkin: well done, sir or madam as the case may be 21:55:31 I am but a wee lad 21:56:01 jcowan: The thing is that in (define (foo x) (bar x)) (define (bar x) (blah x)), you can decide (as Scheme does) that the caller of `blah' *is* `foo'. 21:56:02 If the Great Pumpkin rises out of the pumpkin patch on Halloween, presumably the Great Copumpkin *sinks into* the said patch on the said day. 21:56:06 maybe my dual whould be a lass though 21:56:20 whould? interesting typos I make 21:56:25 jcowan: The fact that the syntax of the code makes `bar' it's caller is only a coincidence. 21:56:56 jcowan: What this shows is that in some extreme cases you would need to be aware of your language doing TCO -- but that's hardly news. 21:57:22 it means dtrace can't catch the exit point of your function! :P 21:57:52 I don't think that "Scheme decides" any such thing, though. 21:58:05 (For the obvious meaning of that phrase.) 21:58:23 (Debating my English syntax will definitely not help.) 21:58:37 BTW#1, this is one of the points that makes refactoring code in Scheme easy -- in the above case I can split some functionality into such `foo' and `bar' without thinking about the consequences; in a language without TCO, I need to consider breaking some assumption of the functions I'm calling. 21:58:42 bsmntbombdood_ [n=gavin@97-118-134-159.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 21:59:23 Ie, if this was Java, I couldn't just break the functionality into separate `foo' and `bar' -- since I'd need to consider a case where a function I'm calling relies on being called from `foo'. 21:59:31 No, I don't mean to debate your syntax. 21:59:43 This *usually* is not a problem, which is why you can *usually* do such refactoring. 21:59:58 *Daemmerung* rolls on Shabbos 22:00:01 So in both cases you have issues to be aware of -- and that's not news either. 22:00:22 I just can't find anything in R5RS that justifies the claim that the caller of blah is foo. 22:00:32 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-92-150-226.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 22:00:48 BTW#2, it is especially ironic that this comes from the Java side -- being an OO language, which is where TCO originated -- and to add to the irony, there's GLS involved, who was one of the key figures in all that. 22:01:04 TCO originated in OO languages? 22:01:08 Yes. 22:01:19 AFAICT, it originated in Prolog implementations under the name of LCO. 22:02:02 You won't find that in r5rs because it doesn't specify any way of getting your hands on "the stack" -- so specifying what is and is not considered "a caller" is meaningless. 22:02:59 R5RS says that tail-calls are a subset of calls, and that "a Scheme implementation is properly tail-recursive if it supports an unbounded number of active tail calls." 22:04:09 Yes, but that has nothing to do with "which function is defined as another function's caller". 22:04:31 And re the origins of TCO, see http://article.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.scheme.plt/32779 22:05:26 (There are other references in that thread.) 22:05:58 elfor [n=johanfre@85.8.2.11.static.se.wasadata.net] has joined #scheme 22:06:40 Apparently Actors and Prolog are pretty much exact contemporaries. 22:06:47 -!- nothingHappens_ [n=nothingh@173-25-176-111.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Success] 22:06:53 "It steam-engines when it comes steam-engine time." --Aleister Crowley 22:07:13 *offby1* stares blankly 22:07:15 nothingHappens_ [n=nothingh@173-25-176-111.client.mchsi.com] has joined #scheme 22:07:23 *offby1* wonders when steam-engine time is 22:07:36 now, maybe; it's tea-time and I make steam when I make tea, so ... 22:07:40 It's always steam engine time 22:08:20 I dreamt I was a priest without forgiveness; I dreamt I was a thief who could see god... 22:11:18 offby1: Around 1700, I'd say 22:11:32 numerous people invented, reinvented, and improved them around that time 22:15:57 Actors appear to suffer from left recursion, at least if implemented eagerly. 22:16:27 The actor gets a message, and consults its behavior to see how to handle it. The behavior is itself an actor, which therefore must consult *its* behavior, etc. 22:16:57 -!- HG` [n=wells@91.108.74.20] has quit [Client Quit] 22:18:01 It's also not clear to me whether Prolog requires proper TCO or not. 22:19:01 Seemingly not. 22:20:01 I cannot add more on what Matthias said in that thread. The irony still stands though. 22:22:46 da /9 22:22:47 doh 22:22:55 -!- elfor [n=johanfre@85.8.2.11.static.se.wasadata.net] has quit [] 22:26:03 -!- Modius__ [n=Modius@adsl-68-92-148-234.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:26:19 hmm 22:26:30 *offby1* wonders if 9 really is zbrown's Swiss Bank Account number 22:28:42 Probably not. 22:28:49 Unless he patronizes a really small bank. 22:34:20 or he could be one of the first customers. 22:34:35 or he's _really rich_, and they auction off the small numbers as a sort of vanity thing 22:34:50 Hence the use of "probably" 22:35:01 ass-coverer 22:35:01 descended from Hitler himself 22:37:26 hadronzoo_ [n=hadronzo@adsl-70-234-252-144.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 22:38:13 offby1: yup 22:38:19 its 9 22:38:32 *offby1* attaches his currency hose 22:38:35 but you need the 2.5x10^4 digit confirmation code to actually do anything. 22:38:41 oh crap, that's new. 22:38:48 used to be you only needed the account number 22:38:49 sorry thats 10^40** 22:39:51 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-18.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Bailing out"] 22:46:28 saccade [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 22:47:46 -!- saccade [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 22:48:56 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 22:49:52 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:52:28 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@Aeropuerto.Kiewit.Dartmouth.EDU] has quit ["Leaving..."] 22:55:30 -!- hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@gateway.publicvpn.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:00:45 pumpkin_ [n=pumpkin@pat9.border1-cfw.dartmouth.edu] has joined #scheme 23:01:51 how do schemers feel about clojure? 23:02:42 define 'feel' 23:03:24 not sure, it was meant as an open-ended question, but to be more specific, do you see it as a dialect of scheme, or a perversion of it, or something in between? 23:03:58 pumpkin_: I feel like I _really should_ play with it more, but I'm put off by the thought (which may be entirely mistaken) that I can't do much with it unless I know lots about the various Java runtime function libraries, and I dunno squat about 'em 23:04:13 happily, ol Phil Hagelberg has made (or will soon release) a screencast about it. 23:04:21 better known as technomancy 23:04:24 rudybot: seen technomancy 23:04:24 *offby1: technomancy was seen in/on #emacs three hours, thirty-two minutes ago, saying "unless things have changed very significantly in the last couple years", and then technomancy was seen in/on #emacs two hours, thirty-six minutes ago, saying "Sam^^: Lisp isn't a language, it's a group of languages." 23:04:32 more of an #emacs guy but what the heck 23:07:30 :) 23:14:27 about "is clojure a scheme", my hunch is: no, but it was almost certainly influenced by it, as all the cool languages have been 23:17:20 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:17:50 -!- jewel [n=jewel@41.242.183.106] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:25:25 saccade [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 23:25:47 FunkyDrummer [n=RageOfTh@92.36.135.126] has joined #scheme 23:27:59 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@92.36.194.219] has joined #scheme 23:29:52 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has left #scheme 23:29:58 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:30:36 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has joined #scheme 23:31:28 pants1 [n=hkarau@206-248-159-162.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 23:35:49 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-208-138.karneval.cz] has quit [] 23:36:02 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 23:36:44 -!- Mr-Cat [n=Mr-Cat@95-24-217-81.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:40:45 maxigas [n=user@catv-80-99-185-35.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 23:41:36 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:42:19 i can run "mzscheme myprogram.ss" and start my web application. but how do i do the same AND get a REPL back where i can manipulate me program? 23:43:39 with drscheme 23:43:49 or with slime 23:43:56 or with cl-swank 23:44:46 -!- RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@92.36.163.53] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:44:55 but i think the easiest would be to open drscheme, load your myprogram.ss in it and your web application 23:44:59 can someone tell me why the 2nd program is soo much faster than the first one? is it separating the work between 2 recursive functions instead of one? 23:45:05 http://hansonchar.blogspot.com/2006/01/fibonacci-numbers-in-scheme.html 23:45:09 sepult: i develop in emacs and in scheme, so i should use slime? 23:45:35 -!- FunkyDrummer [n=RageOfTh@92.36.135.126] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:45:58 maxigas: is slime hindering you when you work with emacs or with scheme ? 23:46:08 maxigas: ?? or what ? 23:46:21 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 23:46:31 raikov [n=igr@60.32.127.43] has joined #scheme 23:47:49 sepult: my question is whether i can use slime with mzscheme, or is it only for other Lisp dialects? 23:48:10 maxigas: no, it is a repl, for every lisp 23:49:06 sepult: OK because "apt-cache cache slime" mentions many Common Lisps but not Scheme. 23:49:19 so i install it and give it a try now! :) 23:50:11 can someone with more scheme knowledge than me explain why the 2nd program in this example is so much faster than the first one? http://hansonchar.blogspot.com/2006/01/fibonacci-numbers-in-scheme.html 23:50:32 maxigas: if you should get any problems you can uninstall it instantly 23:50:39 sako: homework? 23:50:49 nope 23:51:06 teaching myself scheme 23:51:15 sako: your guess is right 23:51:31 its sorta like helper functions offby1? 23:51:31 the first guy calls itself one bazillion times 23:51:38 i see now 23:51:48 sepult: yes i know. :) hmm.. it requires 36MB of Common Lisp packages but anyway... 23:51:56 sako: see if you can "trace"the functions 23:52:00 that should make the difference clear 23:52:28 oh wait i can do step by step on drscheme 23:52:44 that too. Might get kinda dull, but who knows 23:53:51 sako: in short: the fast version, rather than calling itself -twice-, merely calls itself -once-, and then keeps that value around for when it needs it later 23:54:24 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B053D35.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:54:35 so rather than each number taking _twice_ as long as the previous, it merely takes _a few milliseconds_ longer than the previous 23:54:54 ah 23:55:14 thanks offby1 making sense now and im doing the step through its helping as well