00:00:09 synx: Are you serious? There are certain schools that construct nuclear reactors to study, sub-atomic particle accelerators, send satellites to space, and run experiments on animals and on humans. 00:00:10 synx: When you have undisciplined beginners who just start hacking like monkies at code, the first thing you have to get out of their mind is the "random solution" mentality. You have to teach them to start thinking clearly and with purpose. 00:00:27 I don't see any reason to deliberately inflict pain during instruction, unless it's some form of negative reinforcement. 00:00:41 Anything related to automobiles is higher cost than CS, but still lower than those resource monsters. 00:00:49 synx: Exercise is painful, does that make it negative and bad? 00:01:20 If exercise is painful, you'll likely get injured... 00:01:38 eli: Okay I can't top a nuclear reactor admittedly :) 00:01:39 synx: BTW, the point that arcfide is making is perfectly valid. Almost any kind of teaching expereince will get you that. 00:02:01 [Accelerators tend to be more expensive, I think.] 00:02:02 eli: I do like the idea of expecting only correct code, though. ;-) 00:02:17 What I would do is reward people for thinking clearly and with purpose. Anyone who doesn't just won't pass. 00:02:29 arcfide: Yeah, the beauty of a good sandbox library. 00:02:40 No need to bother them with busywork just to make sure they're not lolligagging. 00:02:56 synx: And that's less negative than what I'm suggesting how? 00:03:07 synx: What arcfide describes is not busywork -- it's exactly the rewards for "thinking clearly and with purpose". 00:03:47 Anyways, I'll be on and off here, since it is time for me to get things working on my little code repository. ;-) 00:04:12 synx: here's a though experiment for you: think how you would measure students performance in the "clearly and with purpose" department. 00:04:22 It's a very difficult problem, with very little serious efforts put into it. 00:04:44 Actually, that's probably the most important point of HtDP, compared with SICP. 00:04:53 eli: I was raised under a mentality (in my schools and at home) that you didn't pass the course until you could score a 98% or above on the tests. I wish more schools actually considered competency more seriously. 00:05:20 eli: My future research intends to spend most of my time in educational methods related to this problem. 00:05:37 eli: I actually think SICP is pretty hardcore about teaching reasoning, but it doesn't make it as explicit. 00:05:47 arcfide: Well, in my case the passing grade was 56% -- but that's when the grades actually had real distribution -- not the american kind... 00:06:14 *arcfide* scoffs at American Bell Shaped Poo-I mean-passes. 00:06:52 Yes, SICP *requires* you to be good at these things (design of code etc), but it does not spend any time teaching you the methodology of getting to that point. 00:07:07 That's exactly why good students like it, and everyone else just lag behind. 00:08:09 eli: A proper teacher makes a big difference there. SICP in isolation can be tough on students who don't have at least an inkling of where to go. 00:08:44 Unfortunately, we don't have many good teachers these days. 00:15:40 Riastradh: If you're around I'm looking for RDF-LITERAL/ANNOTATION. 00:21:25 orgy_ [n=ratm_@pD9FFCBBE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 00:24:24 -!- sepult is now known as sepult_ 00:25:13 davidad [n=me@RANDOM-THREE-SEVENTY-SEVEN.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 00:36:02 eli: check your winlock.dll to see how it handles Ctrl+Esc and Ctrl+Alt+Del. (Perhaps it renames or disables taskman.exe while it is active?) 00:37:43 -!- orgy` [n=ratm_@pD9FFC9A2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:44:24 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:50:25 arcfide: I have seen more than a few SICP-based courses, including 6.001 -- and I have yet to see such teachers. (Including myself there.) 00:50:47 Daemmerung: I don't think that it renames it... At least not taskman, since I'm not using it. 00:51:05 Daemmerung: the page of this thing is basically a description of all the hacks that it can do: http://www.codeproject.com/KB/winsdk/AntonioWinLock.aspx?df=100&forumid=62485&exp=0&select=1638161 00:51:08 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/cw9noy 00:51:38 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 00:52:38 Interesting. 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(I just used it to create an IN-RDF-LIST iterator over RDF Lists, and *that* is a good thing). 02:58:09 -!- luz [n=davids@189.122.121.232] has quit ["Client exiting"] 02:58:10 arcfide: Besides the obvious confusion between the phases (which surprises me at just how confusing it looks), and besides your poor choice of abstraction, what is there to puke about in that code? 02:59:25 eli: You mean my pasted code? Well, for one thing, it's the constant name construction which is just annoying, and then the macro was written almost without thought to comprehensibility, so while it half does what it is supposed to do, it's not pretty at all. I don't think it is *really* easy to follow either. 02:59:37 -!- Elly_ [n=elly@PHYREXIA.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit ["leaving"] 03:00:36 arcfide: That's the poor abstraction part. Write a better abstraction for concatenating strings to a syntax, and it's all much shorter and much more better. 03:01:26 I was hoping someone would take the time to do that. ;-) 03:01:33 I didn't wnat to spend that much time on the problem. 03:02:03 Ugh. 03:02:56 I just wanted to demonstrate that it was possible to solve the problem "easily" enough, but I didn't want to take the time to demonstrate that SYNTAX-CASE was the absolute best way to go. 03:04:29 Alright, I'm out of here for the moment. 03:05:36 eli annotated #78425 "untested" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/78425#1 03:05:47 arcfide: there. 03:14:28 -!- Guest68810 [n=kniu@CMU-284828.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:36:33 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-24-157.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 03:38:40 -!- emma_ is now known as emma 03:41:46 http://math.andrej.com/2009/04/11/on-programming-language-design/ 03:47:10 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-24-157.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 03:48:54 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 03:50:10 -!- r0bby_ is now known as r0bby 03:53:26 There are several interesting points there. 03:57:49 hi 03:59:21 is there anybody working on a scheme mode for emacs currently? 04:01:03 There already exists such a mode. And both foof and neilv have enhancements/replacements for it, I think. 04:01:32 -!- offby1` is now known as offby1 04:01:52 I would like take a look to these enhancements/replacements 04:02:31 Not without signing an NDS 04:02:32 NDA 04:02:33 Here's one - http://www.neilvandyke.org/quack/ 04:02:48 I think scheme-mode which be in emacs by default is too raw 04:03:19 The other is f00f's scheme-complete at http://synthcode.com/emacs/ 04:03:44 thanks Daemmerung 04:03:45 Also, some schemes come bundled with their own emacs modes. I am thinking of Gambit in particular. 04:03:59 fwiw, I use none of these 04:04:21 I was thinking in a nice and generic mode (as slime for cl) :) 04:04:30 I just release a butterfly to flip the bits 04:04:50 Oh, there's also slime48 for scheme48 1.3. I don't have the URL, and in any event 1.3 is long deprecated 04:06:05 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-24-157.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:06:43 but Riastradh sticks with it doggedly 04:06:56 I know Slime has some addons for some specific Scheme implementations 04:08:01 I take a look to slime48 et al, and perhaps I try to write one 04:08:09 thanks again, Daemmerung 04:09:24 Don't forget Riastradh's paredit: http://mumble.net/~campbell/emacs/paredit.el 04:09:53 tjafk2 [n=timj@e176211021.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 04:09:55 yes, I love paredit 04:10:29 Until now I used scheme-mode with paredit 04:15:58 Bigloo also has it's own scheme-mode. 04:16:27 The Portable Scheme Debugger (PSD) has Emacs interaction with single stepping support for any Scheme. 04:17:35 hm, great. I didn't know PSD. 04:22:26 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 04:22:35 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 04:26:43 -!- tjafk1 [n=timj@e176209203.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:27:12 I want to make a logging procedure that also prints where it is invoked. Like, file:line or something. 04:29:12 incubot: I loaded up the washing machine, and a single word snuck unbidden into consciousness: FORTH. 04:29:15 And the roguelike I snuck into the compiler module. 04:29:19 eno_ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-135-15.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 04:29:32 :) 04:33:56 "Conceptually, the stack-trace list is the result of continuation-mark-set->list with mark-set and Schemes private key for procedure-call marks." 04:34:22 yeah great idea let's use a secret key just so we can make it hard for people to get stack traces. 04:41:27 -!- eno [n=eno@70.137.144.82] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:44:26 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-187.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:45:27 I'm sure there's a good reason for it. I guess it's impossible to find out anything about which procedure a procedure was called from. 04:49:12 XTL [i=t6haha00@rhea.oamk.fi] has joined #scheme 04:50:13 synx: In Scheme when you have tail-call optimizations, usually only active frames are available on the stack. 04:50:55 This provides very little information about the actual chain of procedure calls used to get to the current point. 04:51:23 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:52:08 On the other hand, tracing every procedure call is also pretty useless since loops will quickly overwrite all the trace information. 04:52:23 Oh, that's true foof... 04:52:44 Definitely impossible then. 04:53:15 -!- ada2358_ is now known as ada2358 04:53:32 Well, good Scheme compilers do loop analysis. They'll be able to find where the loops are, even including mutually recursive loops. 04:54:21 If you then combine the active stack frames, with a fixed buffer of trace information that filters out all but the first call of a loop, you could provide a good picture of what's going on. 04:55:47 sounds interesting, but complicated... 04:55:48 kniu [n=kniu@OVERLORD.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 04:57:58 If the compiler can tell you "this is the first time this loop is being called" though I guess it's theoretically doable. 04:58:12 I already just grepped to find where my log procedure was being called though. 04:59:05 -!- orgy_ [n=ratm_@pD9FFCBBE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:59:25 -!- eno_ is now known as eno 05:02:25 Yeah, it's probably just easiest to provide a trace macro and let the programmer selectively choose which procedures to trace. 05:05:51 -!- jao [n=jao@126.Red-83-33-182.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:06:21 annodomini 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"] 05:54:33 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #scheme 05:58:09 emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 05:59:18 -!- kniu [n=kniu@OVERLORD.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:07:14 is anyone here or did the netsplit destroy it? 06:14:14 -!- duncanm [n=duncan@a-chinaman.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:17:08 kniu [n=kniu@CMU-284828.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 06:18:01 duncanm [n=duncan@a-chinaman.com] has joined #scheme 06:18:59 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-135-15.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 06:19:22 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:26:07 ak70 [n=ak70@195.158.89.115] has joined #scheme 06:27:29 -!- tmitt_ [n=seg@crafty.dsl.utk.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 06:29:30 -!- ak70 [n=ak70@195.158.89.115] has quit [Client Quit] 06:32:13 I'm here elf 06:38:44 Wha? 06:39:32 speak to me elf don't you die on me 06:42:01 ak70 [n=ak70@195.158.89.115] has joined #scheme 06:42:28 arcfide pasted "Looping over RDF lists" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/78441 06:51:38 -!- kniu [n=kniu@CMU-284828.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:57:05 sorry, lots of netsplits so it looked like i was the only one here. 06:57:15 -!- ak70 [n=ak70@195.158.89.115] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:57:38 pretty wild that 06:57:43 yeah 06:58:02 elf all alone on the server of the damned 07:05:29 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:07:41 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 07:08:49 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #scheme 07:15:56 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@h-68-166-253-135.chcgilgm.dynamic.covad.net] has quit ["Sleep"] 07:17:59 -!- loginoleg [n=login@193.47.166.198] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:20:14 elias` [n=me@cs78208074.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 07:22:44 mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 07:27:27 loginoleg [n=login@193.47.166.198] has joined #scheme 07:32:27 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #scheme 07:37:38 jao [n=jao@126.Red-83-33-182.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 07:39:53 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 07:42:25 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #scheme 07:43:21 appletizer [i=user@82-32-124-157.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #scheme 07:44:44 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:44:56 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 07:50:16 Ragnaroek [i=54a641b9@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-f302f35ffda83f81] has joined #scheme 07:51:39 -!- Ragnaroek [i=54a641b9@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-f302f35ffda83f81] has quit [Client Quit] 07:55:43 ejs [n=eugen@8-153-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 08:02:23 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B054A7A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 08:15:17 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 08:21:37 mmc [n=mima@cs131216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 08:25:35 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 08:26:26 -!- tripwyre [n=sathya@117.193.162.89] has quit ["bye all"] 08:31:44 -!- ejs [n=eugen@8-153-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 08:35:00 maodun [n=stopgo@c-24-130-16-102.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 08:38:22 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:43:53 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw372060.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:48:01 reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw372060.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 08:49:48 BW^- [i=Miranda@151.80.79.39] has joined #scheme 08:49:53 -!- jso [n=user@151.159.200.8] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:49:56 eli: awake? 08:51:56 -!- BW^- [i=Miranda@151.80.79.39] has quit ["Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org"] 08:58:09 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.143.60] has joined #scheme 09:03:22 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #scheme 09:09:12 -!- maodun [n=stopgo@c-24-130-16-102.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #scheme 09:11:30 jso [n=user@151.159.200.8] has joined #scheme 09:12:36 johnnowak [n=irchon@ool-45747314.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 09:13:21 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 09:14:02 -!- johnnowak [n=irchon@ool-45747314.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:14:10 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 09:21:58 -!- hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-251-93-164.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:23:21 mike [n=m@dslb-088-066-245-092.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 09:23:50 -!- mike is now known as Guest57385 09:24:18 johnnowak [n=irchon@ool-45747314.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 09:24:25 -!- johnnowak 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[n=m@dslb-088-066-245-092.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:36:55 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-102-3.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 15:37:09 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-85.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 15:39:32 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-102-3.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 15:49:01 -!- rudybot [n=luser@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:50:37 arcfide [n=arcfide@h-68-165-57-247.chcgilgm.dynamic.covad.net] has joined #scheme 15:57:53 elderK [n=zk@222-152-90-102.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 15:58:03 Hey guys, what's faster? Bash or Scheme? 15:58:12 and, I mean uncompiled scheme 15:58:54 .... 15:59:06 :P scheme, I'm guessing 15:59:16 elderK: What's faster, a Marlin or a Lion? 15:59:24 *elderK* sighs 15:59:47 And why ask for "uncompiled scheme?" 16:00:06 ... 16:00:39 And what does it mean to be uncompiled? 16:01:04 Some Scheme implementations compile down to machine code. 16:01:07 Is it still compiling if you store intermediate representations of your code in memory and optimize those trees for execution before you "interpret" the code tree? 16:01:09 Larceny... 16:01:15 No 16:01:22 I still consider that interpretation 16:01:25 at least vs. Bash 16:01:27 giod 16:01:27 all I did 16:01:30 was ask a simple question 16:01:35 thanks, you've answered it 16:01:54 It still compilation if the compiler in question always compiles the code it is going to interpret into an intermediate representation to run which happens to be Assembly code? 16:02:10 elderK: You asked a question that has no real answer. 16:02:17 At least, no universally quantifiable answer. 16:02:18 then why the hell, are you getting all antsy? 16:02:28 generally, what would be faster, scheme or bash? 16:02:31 that is the question. 16:02:31 Heheh...Sorry if I gave you that impression. 16:02:33 I figure Scheme. 16:02:39 You didn't define what fast is. 16:02:52 Well, what do you think I mean "Faster", in terms of Bash and Scheme? 16:02:57 A script would execute faster. 16:03:03 If the script was implemented well. 16:03:03 that is 16:03:59 elderK: Present a problem domain, then maybe that can be answered. 16:04:04 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-102-3.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:04:20 elderK: Many scripts are I/O bound, so that makes a difference. 16:05:06 ~_~ ... yes, but Im asking in general. 16:05:08 And it doesn't really make sense to talk about interpretation vs. compilation for speed comparisons, imo. You can't just block them off into two mutually exclusive partitions. 16:05:10 if both script swer eIO bound 16:05:13 then both would suffer a penalty. 16:05:42 -!- jah [n=jah@113.56.76-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [] 16:06:09 elderK: Exactly, and in a non-trivial script would then differ in speed by only a relatively constant factor and it wouldn't make statistical difference, and thus, they would be equally fast (roughly as fast as the programs they spawned to do the work for them). 16:07:25 -!- Mr-Cat [n=chatzill@78-106-170-46.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.6/2009011913]"] 16:07:43 But then, the question gets weirder, if you decide that the script written in Scheme isn't allowed to spawn processes and pipe output like the Bash script does. And you have to consider whether the Bash script can adequately compute what you want to compute: does it require external programs to run? Do those have to be written in Bash? 16:08:13 ... okay, okay :P 16:08:22 Answer: it depends. 16:08:32 well aye, but thats always the answer. 16:08:34 thus, "generally" 16:08:35 :P ie: ballpark 16:08:36 :P 16:08:40 Answer: it depends. 16:08:59 There is no ballpark answer. 16:09:57 The fact that Scheme can compile its code on the fly will usually mean that the code could run faster in theory. 16:10:32 -!- xwl [n=user@114.246.68.237] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:11:01 elderK: Does that answer the question. 16:11:10 s/\./?/ 16:12:03 (04:01:20 PM) elderK: thanks, you've answered it 16:12:47 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 16:21:15 -!- elderK [n=zk@222-152-90-102.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has left #scheme 16:30:31 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-102-3.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 16:31:39 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@h-68-165-57-247.chcgilgm.dynamic.covad.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:33:43 arcfide [n=arcfide@h-68-165-57-247.chcgilgm.dynamic.covad.net] has joined #scheme 16:35:02 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-102-3.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:36:09 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-102-3.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 16:43:48 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-102-3.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:44:32 -!- rudybot_ is now known as rudybot 16:44:46 -!- offby1` is now known as offby1 16:49:12 ejs [n=eugen@8-153-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 17:01:02 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:01:12 error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 17:03:49 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-102-3.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 17:07:03 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-102-3.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:08:12 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-102-3.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 17:16:01 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-102-3.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:24:52 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:25:42 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-102-3.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 17:25:46 -!- exexex [n=chatzill@88.234.120.66] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:38:27 The_Birdman [n=The_Bird@CPE001839838ebe-CM0018685225f4.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 17:40:20 boy, ask a simple question here and watch out! :) 17:44:17 synx: :-) 17:45:08 If that's your definition of simple, then simple question often lack specificity required to provide precise answers. 17:48:21 I for one would like to see some kind of piping mechanism as elegant as bash's "|" notation in scheme. 17:48:24 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-102-3.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:48:45 The only thing I've seen so far doesn't collapse the whole thing down to a single pipe, like it ought to. 17:51:31 synx: just write a scsh macro, then ;) 17:51:34 incubot: ever since i've been getting cozy with QA, i've learned to appreciate an empty inbox 17:51:37 mmm, nice and cozy in here. 17:51:44 scsh? 17:51:56 scheme shell; a quasi-bash-replacement in scheme 17:52:39 I don't see how a macro would help negotiating all those pipes. I'm talking about some kind of I/O loop. 17:53:37 synx: really? pipes are just a function-composition operator 17:53:39 -!- loginoleg [n=login@193.47.166.198] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:54:28 When the functions are subprocesses, you need to negotiate the I/O using ports. 17:58:12 synx: i'm not sure what the low-level mechanism is, but someone indeed "collapsed the whole thing down to a single pipe:" http://carlstrom.com/publications/scsh-manual.pdf 17:58:53 i thought you were making an observation about the inelegance of subprocess interfaces in scheme 17:58:58 see especially pages 7-9 17:59:08 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 17:59:19 I was gonna say. 18:00:47 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-247-205-254.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 18:01:02 But page 13 and 14 is how they notate pipes. 7-9 doesn't have any. 18:01:54 synx: i was going by the doc's page numbers, not the pdf's 18:02:03 I'm not really big on weird notation though. 18:02:15 Oh sorry klutometis I didn't even notice. 18:02:20 what's weird? they have your | and |+ 18:02:25 This is why HTML is good :p 18:02:36 too true 18:03:02 And your parenthetical expressions like (1 2 0) which applies 2 and 0 to 1 wait 18:04:34 yeah; but is that much worse than, say, 2 >& 1 | or whatever? 18:05:25 and that complexity is reserved for complex pipes (|+), anyway 18:05:53 sreeram [n=sreeram@59.92.34.75] has joined #scheme 18:06:23 It's tricky to negotiate too when there's standard output and standard error. It's like a mathematical function with two ranges. 18:09:38 sreeram_ [n=sreeram@59.92.34.75] has joined #scheme 18:09:39 -!- sreeram [n=sreeram@59.92.34.75] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:10:49 -!- sreeram_ is now known as sreeram 18:11:22 -!- sreeram [n=sreeram@59.92.34.75] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:14:22 sreeram [n=sreeram@59.92.34.75] has joined #scheme 18:15:09 kniu [n=kniu@OVERLORD.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 18:21:36 synx: doesn't call-with-values do what you want?? 18:22:29 call-with-values operates on values, but doesn't copy ports. 18:23:53 hm... (call-with-values (lambda (subprocess #f #f #f "foo")) (lambda (pid input output error) (subprocess #f input (something) "bar")))... 18:25:40 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-101-162.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 18:27:22 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-101-162.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 18:35:26 -!- ejs [n=eugen@8-153-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:38:52 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-101-162.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 18:42:24 a-s [n=user@92.81.117.113] has joined #scheme 18:47:01 sreeram_ [n=sreeram@122.164.236.163] has joined #scheme 18:52:01 hey, does anyone know what happened to bigloo in ubuntu? it seems to be missing since intrepid 18:54:21 -!- error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:54:46 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 19:02:03 We flushed it down the (big) loo 19:05:08 -!- sreeram [n=sreeram@59.92.34.75] has quit [Read 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tessier cipher eli peddie tabe gnomon poucet klutometis csmrFX0r 20:41:41 Ragnaroek [i=d951c916@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-76b81b3afa6fa38a] has joined #scheme 20:44:24 -!- sepult_ is now known as sepult 20:47:04 -!- nan8 [n=user@dslb-088-067-028-187.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #scheme 20:50:59 la la la 20:51:35 la? 20:52:01 datkin [n=datkin@digdug.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 20:52:14 datkin: yo 20:52:23 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw372060.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 20:52:28 duncanm: ahoy 20:52:30 Wow, I dont see joins 21:09:34 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw372060.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:11:53 -!- Ragnaroek [i=d951c916@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-76b81b3afa6fa38a] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 21:13:18 _Pb [n=Pb@75.139.137.1] has joined #scheme 21:17:10 -!- _Pb [n=Pb@75.139.137.1] has quit [Client Quit] 21:25:00 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs131216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection 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