00:03:06 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:05:56 orgy_ [n=ratm_@pD9FFD99A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 00:06:18 saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-70-132.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 00:20:08 wrldpc [n=worldpea@c-98-217-194-116.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:21:58 -!- orgy` [n=ratm_@pD9FFE7F8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:23:32 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 00:24:57 -!- rcassidy [n=rcassidy@155.33.149.150] has quit [] 00:30:10 incubot: A man, a plan, a canal 00:30:13 arcus says: "A man, a plan, a canoe, pasta, hero's rajahs, a coloratura, maps, snipe, percale, macaroni, a gag, a banana bag, a tan, a cat, a mane, paper, a Toyota, rep, a pen, a mat, a can, a tag, a banana bag again (or a camel), a crepe, pins, spam, a rut, a Rolo, cash, a jar, sore hats, a peon, a canal, Panama!" 00:31:37 kniu [n=kniu@CMU-317424.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 00:41:40 -!- RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@92.36.128.23] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:42:20 -!- kniu [n=kniu@CMU-317424.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:42:50 kniu [n=kniu@CMU-317424.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 00:43:57 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #scheme 00:45:46 -!- lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:54:54 -!- mib_91id5bg6 [i=8ddbcdea@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-daa3c6416eb2d911] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 00:55:18 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 00:55:40 mib_6s9n2xhs [i=8ddbcdea@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-d4a012c2672ec5e9] has joined #scheme 00:56:39 -!- hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@66.97.144.9] has quit [] 00:56:58 -!- kniu [n=kniu@CMU-317424.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:58:51 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:02:15 -!- wrldpc [n=worldpea@c-98-217-194-116.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:06:11 npe [n=npe@softbank219039114109.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 01:10:35 kniu [n=kniu@OVERLORD.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 01:15:55 -!- saccade [n=saccade_@COMBINATOR.MIT.EDU] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:18:49 -!- milky_cereals [n=milky@65-126-216-124.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:20:04 saccade [n=saccade_@COMBINATOR.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 01:24:18 borism_ [n=boris@195-50-197-44-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 01:27:50 -!- npe [n=npe@softbank219039114109.bbtec.net] has quit [] 01:31:18 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-201-96-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 01:32:17 -!- McManiaC [n=nils@stud246026.studentenheim.uni-tuebingen.de] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 01:33:09 -!- ipv4_425c471d is now known as neilv 01:44:21 -!- levi [n=user@levi.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:53:49 tessier [n=treed@unused-105-40-113.ixpres.com] has joined #scheme 01:54:41 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-25-7.netcologne.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 01:55:43 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-26-36.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 02:02:35 -!- mib_6s9n2xhs [i=8ddbcdea@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-d4a012c2672ec5e9] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 02:08:18 -!- glogic [n=glogic@5ess.net] has quit ["leaving"] 02:09:32 does anyone understand 'units'? 02:10:06 again a plt specific thingy. I need to learn them to use SSL though. 02:13:38 -!- bkudria [n=bkudria@kudria.net] has quit ["ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net"] 02:13:40 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:13:48 i used to understand units 02:14:10 you don't need them as much anymore 02:15:38 yeah I just found the real OpenSSL section in the manual. 02:15:45 I was getting confused by this: http://docs.plt-scheme.org/net/ssl-tcp-unit.html#(def._((lib._net/ssl-tcp-unit..ss)._make-ssl-tcp~40)) 02:19:46 http://docs.plt-scheme.org/guide/units.html 02:20:31 i got my head wrapped around units and signatures years ago, to do something i needed to do, and then promptly forgot about it 02:21:13 Seemed odd that I would *have* to understand units to use SSL. 02:21:20 if you don't want to spend a lot of time, i suggest grepping the sources for a use of it, or asking on the email list for exactly what you need to do 02:22:01 Yeah the email list, I'll get right on that. 02:22:10 the email list is great 02:23:01 So I've heard tell. 02:24:04 neilv: synx has mailing-list-o-phobia. 02:24:41 I have email-is-broken-ia. 02:24:50 you're scared of public email lists, but not of plt people lurking around internet chat rooms at night? 02:25:27 npe [n=npe@softbank219039114109.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 02:25:33 synx: gmail, yahoo, hotmail, etc -- they'd all be happy to give you an email account, and all you need is a browser. 02:25:39 Last time I tried to join the plt mailing list people ended up getting flooded by bounced messages from my latest failed attempt at email. 02:26:16 eli: I don't want them to have sole control over my writing, sorry. 02:27:00 They will most definitely not control your writing. 02:27:59 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable087.62-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["!"] 02:28:30 Maybe control is the wrong word. 02:29:17 They completely contain on their private property what I write, and I cannot (easily) have a copy on my own private property. 02:29:51 And not just me, but the writing of millions of people. All on one company's ...thing that they can do stuff with. 02:30:16 Is that not control? 02:30:28 synx: it's already way past that 02:30:55 You can setup a forward to some other place. Or just not use the email account to read anything -- read the list through the archives. 02:31:47 And no, that's control over the bits that they're willing to let you use. If I let you use some of my bits, I'd want similar control over it. 02:31:49 I'd like to set up a forward. I had something forwarding through gmail, but it was a terrible hack. That broke, and now bounces everything I receive. 02:32:01 I just cut off outgoing email entirely and haven't really touched it since. 02:32:22 ...like I said -- mailing-list-o-phobia. 02:32:30 glogic [n=glogic@5ess.net] has joined #scheme 02:32:57 eli: if they delete my email, there is no way I can recover that. I can't stop them from deleting it. I know they won't, but just as an example. It's a physical sort of control, not related to policy or procedure. 02:34:30 If I were to talk about something they didn't want me to say for instance. Happens all the time on Google Youtube... not so much on Google Mail but the principle is the same. 02:35:04 synx: if you have $10/mo., you can get good hosting of web and email at pair.com 02:35:36 Yeah if I did. 02:35:47 Use it to send email *only* to public mailing list and to register for services that annoy you by requiring email confirmation -- this way you don't rely on them for keeping your bits in any way. 02:36:00 bkudria [n=bkudria@kudria.net] has joined #scheme 02:36:12 yes, shield your private bits 02:36:31 Alternatively, use a service that gives you imap/pop, and get the stuff to your own machine. 02:36:58 At least that way the list and Google would both have control over my emails, and I would still have no local copy. 02:37:01 http://www.gmail-backup.com/, for example. 02:37:24 Well I was doing that eli. But you said to use the web interface. 02:37:29 the only downside to using gmail is that it makes it easier for them to correlate your identity with your web browsing behavior. but they've probably already got your identity nailed anyway, unless you work very hard and cleverly at it 02:37:30 "The list" will obviously have control over your email. 02:37:58 The problem is I don't have a copy of it myself. 02:38:08 Thus I'm not a big fan of web email. 02:38:13 gmail gives you pop3/smtp access last time I checked 02:38:22 neilv: ehehehehe 02:38:26 synx: use a service that gives you imap/pop, and get the stuff to your own machine. 02:38:35 synx: http://www.gmail-backup.com/, for example. 02:38:58 And when I get the stuff to my own machine and it bounces flooding the plt list, I just start to wonder if email is really worth the trouble. 02:39:03 (Should I make some Emacs macro that will loop that whenever it sees a line that matches "synx.*mail"?) 02:40:01 No -- you don't forward to your own machine, since that requires setting up a mail server, and you've clearly messed up that attempt. Instead, you use pop/imap -- *you* do the polling, and you don't need any server. 02:50:06 -!- saccade [n=saccade_@COMBINATOR.MIT.EDU] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:52:12 saccade [n=saccade_@COMBINATOR.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 02:54:10 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:57:22 rcassidy [n=rcassidy@155.33.149.150] has joined #scheme 02:59:25 Arelius_ [n=Indy@netblock-68-183-230-134.dslextreme.com] has joined #scheme 03:03:27 lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has joined #scheme 03:08:15 -!- lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has quit [Client Quit] 03:08:58 -!- mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:11:03 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-167-7.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 03:18:30 -!- jao [n=jao@cpe-75-84-114-170.socal.res.rr.com] has left #scheme 03:19:14 jao [n=jao@cpe-75-84-114-170.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:19:21 Deformati [n=joe@71.238.45.45] has joined #scheme 03:20:43 raikov [n=igr@81.153.145.122.ap.yournet.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 03:22:39 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:34:25 tsuyoshi [n=tsuyoshi@hikaru.yumegakanau.org] has joined #scheme 03:34:42 -!- jao [n=jao@cpe-75-84-114-170.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:35:03 jao [n=jao@cpe-75-84-114-170.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:36:14 -!- rcassidy [n=rcassidy@155.33.149.150] has quit [] 03:38:55 reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw372060.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 03:46:21 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-26-36.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 04:08:11 -!- npe [n=npe@softbank219039114109.bbtec.net] has quit [] 04:10:02 tjafk1 [n=timj@e176222071.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 04:10:46 npe [n=npe@softbank219039114109.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 04:12:39 -!- npe [n=npe@softbank219039114109.bbtec.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:14:14 -!- reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw372060.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:22:52 npe [n=npe@softbank219039114109.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 04:26:17 -!- tjafk2 [n=timj@e176207241.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:28:47 Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-208-203.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:32:12 -!- Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-208-203.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:34:08 dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has joined #scheme 04:35:42 -!- elderK [n=zk@122-57-246-4.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has left #scheme 04:45:30 minion: advice for synx 04:45:31 synx: #11904: Who the fuck cares which one is faster? 04:47:55 :) 04:48:01 Answer: many of us nerds 04:48:50 *elf* cares! 04:50:23 *synx* buries sorrows in cute videos of otter trying to be intimidating. 04:51:17 *elf* is an otter. 04:51:26 *elf* fails and goes back to sleep. 04:51:45 i'm pretty sure that elf-otter matings are illegal 04:52:04 it's called "inter-species snorgling" 04:52:34 heh. 04:53:08 everyone knows elves are mortal enemies with the weasel-kin 04:53:15 meh. 04:53:22 too tired to be mortal enemies with anyone. 04:53:29 Indeed, bed time. 04:53:33 hi arcfide :) 04:53:39 elf: Hi. 04:53:51 elf: Still hacking away at Chicken? 04:53:51 catcha later. wanted to ask you something about your robotthings. 04:53:55 hehe 04:54:01 yeah, although not much atm cause my brains are melting. 04:54:05 elf: Feel free to ask now, I'll listen for a few moments. 04:54:15 im trying to remember what it was that i wanted to ask you. 04:54:19 cf: brains melting. 04:54:39 i wish eli would believe me that the new plt search feature often locks up my browser for 14 seconds, as if perhaps something isn't cached 04:54:54 *elf* mutters about javascript. 04:55:30 ah, it just took 16 seconds 04:55:47 neilv: I had that problem too, when it was new; but not since then 04:55:51 *neilv* gets video camera 04:56:06 neilv: Try doing it from local documentation. When you search from the remote docs server it tries a bunch of AJAX javascript junk that can take a while. 04:56:12 i'm doing it from local 04:56:18 locally there's no response delay though 04:56:34 sometimes i get no delay. right now i am 04:56:35 oh, well... sorry. That's the only time I've experienced delays. 04:58:12 elf: What was your robot question? 04:58:24 i dont remember. im trying to remember. 04:58:29 i will ask you later when i remember :) 04:58:36 elf: Alright, feel free to email me about it. 04:58:44 elf: Did it have anything to do with the code? 04:58:55 yes. 04:58:58 Like Upgrading (that's broken, currently), or the protocol? 04:59:12 and something with ... oh , is it related to the mit robot learning project? 04:59:19 thats what it was! 04:59:35 is the codebase related to the new intro codebase over there? 04:59:48 elf: Not that I know of, unless MIT is affiliated with the IPRE. IPRE is pushing this kind of robots in education thing. 05:00:09 not sure. its python based toy looking thingies. 05:00:16 *elf* speaks eloquently, sigh. 05:00:22 IU thought it might be interesting, so we grabbed a few to see how it goes. I then somehow managed to get myself into the position as authoring the Scheme port. 05:00:31 hm. 05:00:55 probably not, then. i had run across a paper or something randomly which is why i was thinking about it. 05:02:02 -!- gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:03:58 dmoerner [n=dmr@ppp-71-139-37-78.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 05:04:06 incubot: spam is maps backward; consider making use of that 05:04:09 No, all I wanted was an analogue of BACKWARD-UP-LIST for DOWN-LIST, which is a trivial definition, but I wondered why it wasn't built-in, as BACKWARD-UP-LIST is. 05:04:36 rcassidy [n=rcassidy@155.33.149.150] has joined #scheme 05:04:38 elf: I think has some universities listeed. 05:04:45 -!- rcassidy [n=rcassidy@155.33.149.150] has quit [Client Quit] 05:04:47 elderK [n=zk@122-57-246-4.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 05:04:50 Hey people. 05:05:05 About pesistent data structures - why create a persistent ADT - if you don't /need/ persistence? 05:05:24 If you don't require that - and in-place updating is fine - why introduce the complexity needed for persistence? 05:05:42 Either, you don't? or you do, because it is simply 'good form'? 05:05:49 Or, is it simply personal preference? 05:11:04 Not to mention, just because you may not have all the dream features you want doesn't mean that you can't be just as effective using a different methodology. 05:11:06 Hey all. 05:11:31 arcfide: thankee. 05:12:19 hey Quadrescence 05:12:41 Hello elderK. 05:13:30 neilv: It's not that I don't believe you -- it's just that the search page is not playing any weird caching tricks, so it's all up to your browser to deal with it. 05:13:55 synx: No, there is no "ajax junk" involved -- the search page on the web is identical to the one that you get locally. 05:15:39 eli: I refer to javascript requesting pages itself to display content dynamically. I thought they called that AJAX. 05:16:34 synx: It doesn't do that. Repeat: the search page on the web is identical to the one that you get locally. 05:16:52 eli: i have irrefutable videographic evidence 05:17:17 Why? 05:17:25 ^^ Ignore 05:17:27 Who? 05:17:35 eli: the local one also uses javascript to fetch pages that it displays dynamically...I thought? 05:17:48 neilv: Those are the kind that don't help much in debugging, right? 05:17:57 correct 05:18:26 I have refutable imaginary evidence. 05:18:56 *elf* has no evidence of any kind. 05:18:58 synx: No. The javascript code does not fetch any pages. It does not retreive any pages. It does not cause any html content to be retreived. Either locally or remotely -- there is no fetching. No, no fetching at all. 05:18:59 i did include firebug in the video, but firebug doesn't seem to trace accesses to "file:" urls, unlike "http:" ones, so that was no help 05:19:26 *offby1* sings in chorus: "no kvetching" 05:20:02 neilv: when I use firebug and go to gmail, gmail pops up a banner that says "firebug is known to make gmail slow". Perhaps the same interaction applies to the PLT docs? 05:20:05 synx: Before offby1's comment makes you ask: no, it does not do any kvetching either. 05:21:36 neilv: That firebug thing does sound like it might cause a delay. 05:22:46 Keep in mind that the index file is a big 2.8mb piece of JS "code" -- one array with all the entries. 05:23:04 eli: it was doing it when firebug was disabled 05:23:12 i turned on firebug only for the video 05:23:52 oh, okay eli my bad then. 05:24:25 the issue is not swapping, btw. this particular machine is using only 300MB RAM out of 2GB, and has no swap space defined 05:25:23 neilv: Sorry, I just don't have any ideas what could be wrong. The JS code is simply not doing anything "smart" -- just looks through an array that is loaded with the page. 05:25:51 i suspect it is reloading that big file each time for some reason 05:26:02 Which browser/OS, btw? 05:26:13 it's a rebranded firefox 3 on debian 05:26:23 3.0.6 05:26:32 Rebranded? 05:27:23 mozilla.com wouldn't let debian call it firefox if they made any changes, such as disabling privacy-invading features 05:27:58 FWIW, I've had no problems with a mozilla-based browser on linux -- and I use it very frequently. 05:28:02 it's conceivable they broke javascript, but i doubt it 05:29:14 iceweasel <3 05:29:16 well, one of these days i might break out the systems programming tools and debug it 05:32:37 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 05:32:50 neilv: Actually I find that running strace is usually very helpful in finding sources of strange delays. 05:33:28 That's like a classic use of it -- since the delay means that you have plenty of time watching the offending system call... 05:33:34 yes, that (or a newer tool) would be my first choice 05:34:52 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:35:10 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 05:35:14 *eli* wonders what's wrong with strace that you'd need newer tools... 05:35:55 i used strace 20 years ago. i'd like to think they had some new bells&whistles 05:38:02 -!- Nshag [n=shagoune@Mix-Orleans-106-4-173.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:39:59 It still works fine... 05:40:22 BTW, that name issue sounds like such a ridiculously stupid story. 05:40:46 (And IIUC, the problem is in the artwork's license, not in some privacy options.) 05:41:27 davidad [n=me@RANDOM-NINETY-FIVE.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 05:41:45 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 05:42:20 eli: it was license, but it arose because debian likes to make gratuitous changes to upstream, and then when it was rebranded, they started to emphasize privacy 05:45:14 Ugh. 05:45:37 We've had some Debian related issues too -- seems like a very anal team. 05:47:39 well, the part about gratuitous upstream changes is a failing of debian 05:47:59 but in general, they are very principled 05:48:10 Yeah upstream changes are generally not a good idea. The hope is that it'll only be to get the programs to work with the system, but... 05:49:29 The issue that we had was about documentation: that was at the time of v3xx, where the documentation sources were not available. 05:50:23 This was only a technicality: they were just too messy to be usable by almost anyone -- but I had to patch up the build script to put them out too, and we had to include a new license file for the documentation. 05:50:39 debian's strictness is a big part of why open source has advanced as much as it has 05:52:00 anyway, right now i am coding some new xml libraries that are portable but almost perfectly backward-compatible with plt's 05:52:01 As a non-debian user I'd disagree with that generalization... And as someone who works in an open source project I can say that the strict policy only caused us to spend time on Things That Are Not Advancing Our Software... 05:52:48 eli: understood. it's a transitional period for open source still 05:53:32 But FWIW, that's not the biggest damage I had from such issues -- the library that is used for our ffi was far more annoying. 05:53:37 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-137-200-228.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Sleep"] 05:54:22 I originally went with ffcall -- but the author made it clear that he has a moral issue with LGPL, so there was no chance of getting it to use it instead of GPL. 05:54:33 So I had to rewrite the whole thing around libffi instead. 05:54:43 Heh, very. 05:55:04 that happens. it's an author's right to use gpl 05:55:50 I find any such issues as things that go against the (open source) hacker mentality. 05:56:52 It would horrify me to no end if someone told me that they need to actually write code because of something I did. (Assuming that I didn't get sufficiently compensated to *not* be horrified...) 05:57:28 Re the backward compatible xml code -- the reason Jay said that it must be compatible is that there's a ton of easy-to-break stuff that relies on it. 05:58:07 i'm sitting here unemployed, writing lgpl libraries that i know some people are using at companies, and (with one exception) they never send me consulting gigs 05:58:33 so i'm sympathetic to the gpl people for that reason too :) 05:59:04 eli: understood on xml. that's part of why i'm using plt as a starting point, rather than sxml 05:59:53 Well, if I were paid then I wouldn't see any issue saying "too bad for you, I make a living from this thing". 06:00:01 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@ppp-71-139-37-78.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:00:26 But if I'm not, then this is like using my software only to push some ideological views on the people who want to use it. 06:00:42 that itself reflects an ideology :) 06:01:36 The ideology of non-ideological software use? 06:01:48 s/use/development/. 06:02:57 you just said that if someone is making money off of it, they have different moral rights than someone who derives some other benefit from writing software 06:03:45 i'd say that the person who chooses to lgpl software is, if anything, in a morally superior position to one who sells it 06:03:54 or at least, morally equivalent 06:04:08 Ah, yes -- that can defenitely be an ideology -- the whatever-makes-me-get-paid ideology... 06:04:41 s/lgpl/gpl/ 06:05:10 The question is about LGPL vs GPL. 06:05:28 i guess you could argue that a person whose livelihood depends on not lpgl-ing the software has a morally superior argument to one who chooses not to over principle 06:05:33 livelihood over principle 06:06:22 these are all value-based 06:08:28 In any case, for software as a whole, I find LGPL to be better than GPL. It's a more practical "just use it" than "use it only if you can see the light". 06:09:46 lgpl is more convenient from an immediate usage standpoint, agreed 06:13:16 gpl is better 06:15:39 neilv: LGPL is also much less selfish than GPL. 06:15:57 BSD is the best! 06:16:01 take our code, please! 06:16:47 -!- raikov [n=igr@81.153.145.122.ap.yournet.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:17:39 selfish assumes that the motive is for self rather than altruism 06:18:38 anyway, i think it's academic for us now 06:20:33 (Yes: advocating your own view; whereas LGPL (and BSD and other equivalents) are more in the "I'm a just a hacker; if you cared what were my life views you wouldn't read my code anyway" department.) 06:33:27 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-129-173.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 06:40:37 -!- npe [n=npe@softbank219039114109.bbtec.net] has quit [] 06:41:37 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:41:55 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 06:52:07 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-70-132.dyn.mit.edu] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 06:52:53 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:53:38 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-155-153.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 06:55:10 barney [n=bernhard@p549A292A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 06:56:15 I think a GPL project can use LGPL code, just not vice versa... I'm no lawyer though. I can't imagine why anyone would have a problem with /using/ LGPL code, though if they're forced to license their own code as LGPL I can understand a complaint. 06:57:10 yes you can use LGPL with GPL code 06:57:10 GPL's supposed to be one-way not zero-way... me I tend to stick with Creative Commons licenses. 06:57:19 Or the WTFPL 06:57:23 you use wtfpl? 06:57:42 I have used it 06:58:16 Yeah most of my code is worth about WTFPL licensing. 06:58:54 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 06:59:33 "It's just like display, but with an asterisk and a carriage return. ORIGINAL WORK DO NOT STEAL" 06:59:41 oh 06:59:56 the wtfpl says "changing the license is ok as long as you change the name" 07:00:21 -!- bsmntbombdood [n=gavin@97-118-131-76.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:04:10 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:06:10 The author of the WTFPL points out a really subtle problem with public domain...that it is not accepted internationally. 07:06:12 I thought it was just a joke at first, but I really can't think of a license aside from that that lets me unconditionally give my code away. 07:06:17 y'know except the "TINTWTFPL" license. 07:06:19 (This Is Not The WTFPL (made it up on the spot)) 07:06:32 -!- kniu [n=kniu@OVERLORD.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:06:51 kniu [n=kniu@OVERLORD.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 07:08:12 ASau [n=user@pppoe-88-147-221-247.san.ru] has joined #scheme 07:13:47 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 07:15:42 how is public domain not internationally accepted? 07:15:54 the idea of public domain is within the international copyright convention. 07:26:42 elf: there's one fascist country around, which either 07:26:42 doesn't accept international conventions or treats them in its 07:26:42 own way. 07:31:12 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:31:33 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 07:33:44 raikov [n=igr@211.120.225.193] has joined #scheme 07:33:53 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 07:34:46 ASau: s/one/at least one/ 07:34:59 -!- kniu [n=kniu@OVERLORD.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:35:28 in which case the idea of copyrighted material doesnt mean anything, either, so the idea of public domain clearly doesnt mean anything :) 07:35:29 klutometis: it doesn't consider presence of other countries, hence "one". 07:36:00 and so the idea of a gpl or other opensource licence being valid is patently ludicrous. 07:36:33 ejs [n=eugen@173-71-179-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 07:41:34 -!- jld [i=jld@kurobara.xlerb.net] has quit ["Reconnecting"] 07:41:37 jld [i=jld@kurobara.xlerb.net] has joined #scheme 07:48:18 ASau: it may not, but the mathematical "there exists" operator does 07:49:13 klutometis: real world doesn't follow mathematics. 07:51:57 wrldpc [n=worldpea@pool-173-48-214-204.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 08:13:42 McManiaC [n=nils@stud247205.studentenheim.uni-tuebingen.de] has joined #scheme 08:19:20 mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 08:23:20 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-2.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 08:29:47 can I have a scheme->scheme compiler that runs a computer program and then figures out where to insert force and delays to make it faster? 08:31:57 -!- raikov [n=igr@211.120.225.193] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:33:06 mib_cn4d6h [i=4f3457f2@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-ba45516c928e8d1c] has joined #scheme 08:33:11 -!- mib_cn4d6h [i=4f3457f2@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-ba45516c928e8d1c] has left #scheme 08:38:59 -!- ejs [n=eugen@173-71-179-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 08:43:01 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw372060.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 08:59:22 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@adsl-208-190-39-239.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 09:02:50 -!- proqesi [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:08:54 -!- McManiaC [n=nils@stud247205.studentenheim.uni-tuebingen.de] has quit ["leaving"] 09:09:35 -!- barney [n=bernhard@p549A292A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:12:12 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 09:12:28 raikov [n=igr@81.153.145.122.ap.yournet.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 09:13:36 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #scheme 09:28:42 -!- hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@adsl-208-190-39-239.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:38:03 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:42:46 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 09:46:31 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 09:53:18 Ragnaroek [i=54a67492@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-a8654d1160af8bc5] has joined #scheme 09:55:14 -!- breily [n=breily@173.15.192.254] has quit [] 09:57:30 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #scheme 09:58:43 RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@92.36.138.101] has joined #scheme 10:11:06 repror___ [n=reprore@ntkngw372060.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 10:11:21 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw372060.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:20:38 -!- raikov [n=igr@81.153.145.122.ap.yournet.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:23:44 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B05445A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 10:27:06 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-247-201-204.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 10:36:39 -!- dlt_ [n=dlt@201.57.58.146] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:39:00 dzhus [n=sphinx@93.81.149.59] has joined #scheme 10:40:10 -!- repror___ [n=reprore@ntkngw372060.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:40:26 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw372060.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 10:54:23 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw372060.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:54:42 reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw372060.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 10:56:58 -!- Arelius_ [n=Indy@netblock-68-183-230-134.dslextreme.com] has quit [] 11:03:29 -!- reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw372060.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:07:57 incubot: On further reflection, I think it's because we other editors are bums. 11:08:00 SISC uses line/column. Expression path is easier to implement, but harder to integrate into most editors 11:08:30 incubot: The six of us were on the committee-to-form-a-committee that took a over a year to arrive at one brilliant conclusion: that the same people should be editors. 11:08:33 or perhaps everything takes a long while to arrive in the grim north :) 11:08:51 *mejja* enjoys bashing R6 11:12:23 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw372060.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 11:15:50 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:18:14 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:18:46 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 11:19:00 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw372060.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:19:31 reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw372060.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 11:20:41 -!- dzhus [n=sphinx@93.81.149.59] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:22:16 what is the best scheme implementation? 11:23:30 depends on your requirements. but if you don't know your requirements, the answer is plt 11:23:44 -!- ASau [n=user@pppoe-88-147-221-247.san.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:24:51 I don't have any requirements, I'm just looking for opinions 11:25:26 but anyway why do you say plt? 11:25:45 barney [n=bernhard@p549A292A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 11:27:23 plt is full of stuff, works well, and is the most popular. http://docs.plt-scheme.org/ 11:37:30 ASau [n=user@95.84.29.149] has joined #scheme 11:46:17 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 11:47:25 McManiaC [n=nils@stud247205.studentenheim.uni-tuebingen.de] has joined #scheme 11:48:54 -!- barney [n=bernhard@p549A292A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:50:24 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has 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(Operation timed out)] 19:02:02 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:03:06 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #scheme 19:03:31 neilv [n=user@dsl092-071-029.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #scheme 19:06:32 krat3r [n=krat@a213-22-204-240.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #scheme 19:07:52 is it possible to call a continuation from within eval to get out of it? 19:08:11 error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 19:08:47 you should be able to 19:08:49 Yes. 19:09:33 rudybot: eval (call-with-current-continuation (lambda (k) ((eval '(lambda (c) (c 5)) (scheme-report-environment 5)) k))) 19:09:35 Riastradh: your scheme sandbox is ready 19:09:35 Riastradh: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: scheme-report-environment in module: 'program 19:09:47 Blah. 19:09:53 rudybot: eval (call-with-current-continuation (lambda (k) ((eval '(lambda (c) (c 5)) (interaction-environment)) k))) 19:09:53 Riastradh: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: interaction-environment in module: 'program 19:09:58 Oh well. 19:10:04 kniu [n=kniu@CMU-329442.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 19:10:17 it works in chicken 19:11:50 rudybot: init r5rs 19:11:51 p1dzkl: your r5rs sandbox is ready 19:12:02 rudybot: eval (call-with-current-continuation (lambda (k) ((eval '(lambda (c) (c 5)) (scheme-report-environment 5)) k))) 19:12:02 p1dzkl: ; Value: 5 19:12:13 there 19:12:32 it tastes like chicken 19:19:00 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:19:28 fiveseven [n=fiveseve@quoins.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 19:23:42 -!- krat3r [n=krat@a213-22-204-240.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 19:35:41 Arelius_ [n=Indy@netblock-68-183-230-134.dslextreme.com] has joined #scheme 19:35:42 -!- Narrenschiff [n=ritchie@xolotl.plus.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:01:13 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195-50-197-44-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Client Quit] 20:01:42 borism [n=boris@195-50-197-44-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 20:05:15 benny` [n=benny@i577A0099.versanet.de] has joined #scheme 20:12:30 mib_5ubzmg64 [i=8ddbcdea@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-dbf824f8f37e96b1] has joined #scheme 20:14:15 `sorrow` [n=kvirc@92.0.159.235] has joined #scheme 20:14:45 *`sorrow`* Good evening ! 20:17:53 maskd [i=maskd@unaffiliated/maskd] has joined #scheme 20:20:20 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1FFA.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:29:25 metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-127-85-87.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 20:36:02 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:40:08 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@48-134-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:43:21 evening? it's pre-evening :) 20:43:47 ebzzry [n=ebzzry@124.217.74.164] has joined #scheme 20:49:12 Judofyr [n=Judofyr@c0796BF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has joined #scheme 20:49:53 -!- ebzzry [n=ebzzry@124.217.74.164] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:57:37 -!- a-s [n=user@92.80.66.203] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:05:56 -!- Ragnaroek [i=54a66826@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-7d9471d9d56d49d8] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 21:08:35 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 21:15:16 mib_5ubzmg64: it is deep night. 21:16:06 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:24:26 in NL? 21:25:10 In NL it's a half hour to midnight 21:26:06 Even though I've only had layover flights in NL, I still miss it. :( 21:26:12 How is the temperature? :P 21:26:17 It's pretty nice 21:26:25 ~17 degrees C 21:26:28 :) 21:26:35 excellent 21:26:35 I think it's colder now, of course 21:26:41 But during the day it is 21:27:15 ~0 degrees right now 21:27:23 in Upper Michigan 21:27:26 jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:27:28 0 C* 21:27:50 I just want summer to come, haha. 21:28:40 Summer never comes. 21:29:29 -!- `sorrow` [n=kvirc@92.0.159.235] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/"] 21:33:30 Summer for me means there is no snow on the ground and the temperature is around ~20* C 21:38:25 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 21:38:48 It isn't summer. 21:39:26 Summer here means there's no rain and the temperature is above 32 grad. C. 21:40:14 That's what summer is. 21:41:06 loonysalmon [n=kvirc@rover-205-234.rovernet.mtu.edu] has joined #scheme 21:41:54 Summer is when the rain is warm 21:42:06 It never rains :D 21:42:12 It always rains 21:42:16 Which is good 21:42:33 -!- mib_5ubzmg64 [i=8ddbcdea@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-dbf824f8f37e96b1] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 21:42:49 ok, finally done with mibbit bs, this is mib_5ubzmg64 21:43:02 had to get some sort of irc client on my lappy 21:44:11 -!- McManiaC [n=nils@stud247205.studentenheim.uni-tuebingen.de] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 21:44:57 Mr-Cat [n=Mr-Cat@bahirkin1507.static.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 21:48:23 -!- deat [n=deat@fac34-8-88-172-174-215.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [] 21:52:05 -!- Judofyr [n=Judofyr@c0796BF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:52:22 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 21:53:22 Judofyr [n=Judofyr@c0796BF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has joined #scheme 21:53:32 -!- kniu [n=kniu@CMU-329442.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:54:05 kniu [n=kniu@CMU-329442.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 21:55:26 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:00:42 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:03:56 -!- Arelius_ [n=Indy@netblock-68-183-230-134.dslextreme.com] has quit [] 22:12:03 -!- benny` is now known as benny 22:13:48 -!- kniu [n=kniu@CMU-329442.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:16:57 -!- Judofyr [n=Judofyr@c0796BF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:19:22 NNshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-233.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 22:20:18 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@adsl-208-190-39-239.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 22:21:11 kniu [n=kniu@OVERLORD.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 22:26:03 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-2.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:27:04 One of you, guys (sorry, forgot who), told me, that I cannot use define-macro and syntax-case side-by-side in chicken. Seems, that I can or is it just a trick of fortune? 22:29:21 And the second question. Is it ok, that the following two macros are not equivalent in case when queue-painter is a syntax-case macro, that captures certain identifiers from outside? 22:29:41 (define-macro (square) '(queue-painter make-square-painter)) 22:30:09 (define-syntax square (lambda (exp) #'(queue-painter make-square-painter))) 22:32:13 define-macro is not hygienic, so (let ((queue-painter #f)) (square)) will not work, but with syntax-case it should 22:33:17 (define-syntax-rule (square) (queue-painter make-square-painter)) 22:33:47 Probably just best to implement it as a procedure. 22:34:53 -!- bzzbzz [n=franco@modemcable140.105-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 22:35:19 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-2.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 22:35:58 synx: `square' (and the underlying queue-painter) should capture some variables. I don't want to pass them explicitly. Btw, seems to me, that define-syntax-rule will inhibit capturing. Am I wrong? 22:36:15 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-2.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 22:36:16 McManiaC [n=nils@stud247205.studentenheim.uni-tuebingen.de] has joined #scheme 22:37:11 I mean `(define-syntax-rule (square) (queue-painter make-square-painter))' will inhibit capturing, since it is hygienic? 22:38:26 pldzkl: I'm trying to generate a toplevel declaration but thants for the idea with let 22:40:12 can't you just use set! ? 22:40:41 at least you can in chicken to set a toplevel 22:40:45 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-2.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 22:42:52 Or if queue-painter doesn't have side effects just (define square (queue-painter make-square-painter)) 22:43:16 synx: Hm... I'll try that 22:46:12 synx: Oh, stop. Square should be a macro. IIRC `define' does not define macros 22:47:21 I think, I'll better paste an example of what I'm trying to do 22:47:59 lisppaste: url 22:47:59 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste. 22:48:04 -!- hornbeck [n=hornbeck@70.245.102.16] has left #scheme 22:51:05 -!- hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@adsl-208-190-39-239.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [] 22:55:19 -!- NNshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-233.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:58:45 Mr-Cat pasted "What I'm trying to implement" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/78070 22:59:16 Beware: many characters :) 22:59:42 s/finite/final 23:01:40 But seems to me, that syntax-case is not the best thing to use if I want to capture many variables. Maybe I should stick to implementation-specific non-hygienic macros and stop bothering #scheme? :) 23:03:02 s/many variables/many variables in many places/ 23:03:40 s/many/many many many/ 23:04:42 yes :) 23:04:46 Mr-Cat: implementation-specific non-hygienic macros? 23:04:57 mejja: like define-macro in chicken 23:06:14 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-247-201-204.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:06:32 You should read the little article foof wrote on macros in chicken 23:06:53 mejja: Can you paste a link please? 23:08:08 I don't have a link to it. sorry. 23:08:51 Well, maybe a direction, where to search for it? Chicken website or some keywords to google with? 23:09:45 #chicken 23:10:18 -!- fiveseven [n=fiveseve@quoins.demon.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 23:10:52 -!- loonysalmon [n=kvirc@unaffiliated/loonysalmon] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:10:53 Hm... Maybe I should ask foof himself? :) Don't you know, when is he usually online? He seems to be in GMT+8 iirc. 23:11:42 or near that 23:15:52 Scheme seems to be a psychologically good prototyping language. Unlike C/C++/C#/Cwhatever, I can throw out already written/tested code without regret :) 23:16:31 Well... provided it is commited to source control :) 23:18:00 -!- hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD125054017176.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit ["|_ e /\ \/ i |/| G"] 23:19:29 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B05445A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:21:24 Well yeah Mr-Cat, just (define-syntax-rule (square) (queue-painter make-square-painter)) everything. 23:21:33 You don't specify what :matrix or :queue become though. 23:23:40 synx: Sorry, I don't get your point :( 23:24:23 My point is you don't have to use define-macro for that. 23:24:26 Whatever it is you're doing. 23:25:37 synx: But wrapping a capturing (via datum->syntax) syntax-case into a hygien macro will break the capture, won't it? 23:26:31 Mr-Cat: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/chicken-users/2008-04/msg00013.html 23:26:49 I dunno. What's a capturing syntax-case? 23:27:23 -!- Edico_ [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:28:37 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:29:15 synx: Like in an example I lisppasted. Those with-syntax and datum->syntax-object guarantee, that the expanded form will use those :matrix and :queue that existed in the place where the macro was used 23:30:41 So, `capturing' - I mean breaking this rule for hygiene: `If a macro transformer inserts a free reference to an identifier, the reference refers to the binding that was visible where the transformer was specified, regardless of any local bindings that may surround the use of the macro.' 23:32:15 Oh okay I see what you mean. Eh... 23:32:23 I still don't know what your program is doing in the first place. 23:33:03 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 23:38:07 synx: Well, I may start explaining, but I think in this case we'll start discussing possible approaches to implement the stuff, not this particular approach. :) But in a nutshell it's a schemish remake of context-free art (and its cfdg). 23:39:05 So, like LOGO? 23:39:27 synx: Sorry, don't know about logo. 23:39:45 With the turtle. 23:40:13 You teach it to draw a triangle first, then you tell it "do that and rotate half a degree each time" and it draws a spirograph. 23:40:35 synx: Well, seems to be something like that 23:41:23 Maybe, with a bit different flavor 23:42:35 you said context-free, brought it to mind... 23:42:45 "context-free glamour" 23:43:33 Oh do you specifically mean the program "Context-free"? 23:43:54 synx: I mean - http://www.contextfreeart.org/ - that's what I'm inspired with 23:44:09 ahh okie 23:44:35 English's inability to talk about itself strikes again. 23:44:55 synx: What do you mean? 23:44:57 Fractal art sure is fun looking. :3 23:45:39 Yeah, some pictures are really nice, though generated by extremely simple programs 23:45:57 Well, you said context-free art. I thought you meant context-free, an adjective describing works of art that are free of context. Really you meant context-free art, art created by the program named "Context-free" 23:46:22 But there's not a very good way to specify you were talking about a symbol, not the value of a variable. 23:46:53 Well, I should have included a link in the first place 23:47:04 You said (art 'context-free) and I interpreted that as (art context-free) 23:48:01 :) 23:49:13 Well, thanks for your help... I think, I should go. nearly 4am here :) 23:49:27 cya 23:49:28 -!- Mr-Cat [n=Mr-Cat@bahirkin1507.static.corbina.ru] has quit ["    (xchat 2.4.5  )"] 23:50:47 -!- McManiaC [n=nils@stud247205.studentenheim.uni-tuebingen.de] has quit ["leaving"] 23:50:54 Context-free glamour sounds great. 23:51:08 I bet lots of women would pay through their chubby noses for it. 23:51:41 1. Context-free glamour. 2. Infomercial during soaps. 3. PROFIT!!! 23:52:03 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has left #scheme 23:53:02 "Look great wherever, whenever!" 23:53:09 *offby1* is a natural-born marketing man