00:01:48 incubot: more swedish fish! 00:01:48 -!- Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-67-129-245.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [""That's our secret... we kill you with kindness. What's your secret?""] 00:01:51 It means he ate fish for dinner. 00:01:57 minion: chant 00:01:58 MORE SWEDISH 00:02:04 I am listening to podcasts from UC Berkeley's CS61A class. They apparently use stk, and I discovered stklos is built upon stk. I cannot do the classwork without the berkeley.scm program, and when I try to run the program, I get: 00:02:07 $ stklos -l berkeley.scm 00:02:07 **** Error while loading file "berkeley.scm" 00:02:07 Where: in %execute 00:02:07 Reason: variable `add-signal-handler!' unbound 00:02:07 - <> 00:02:08 - %execute 00:02:10 - eval 00:02:12 EXIT 00:02:27 where do I find add-signal-handler! 00:02:29 ? 00:02:42 chruck1: Sorry pal, that's a rough one. :-) 00:02:54 Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-67-129-245.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #scheme 00:03:02 am I in the right room? 00:03:03 chruck1: There should be an equivalent functionality in STKlos, but it may not be exactly the same. 00:03:25 Harveys homepage? 00:03:33 perhaps there is stk somewhere? 00:03:36 chruck1: What you want is the signal handling functionality of stklos, and you'd have to find it. 00:04:04 chruck1: stk doesn't catch much slack or breaks in this room. 00:04:07 mejja: Harvey? 00:04:46 http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/~bh/ 00:05:13 mejja: thx 00:06:11 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 00:07:02 jberg [n=johan@229.84-48-210.nextgentel.com] has joined #scheme 00:08:59 cipher [n=cipher@pool-173-48-136-239.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 00:20:30 orgy_ [n=ratm_@pD9FFF897.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 00:20:59 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:22:42 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:27:25 -!- cipher [n=cipher@pool-173-48-136-239.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:30:51 -!- kniu [n=kniu@DA-YU.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:31:17 kniu [n=kniu@CMU-328092.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 00:36:15 -!- orgy` [n=ratm_@pD9FFE653.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:36:25 cipher [n=cipher@pool-173-48-136-239.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 00:37:47 bombshelter13__ [n=bombshel@209-161-224-54.dsl.look.ca] has joined #scheme 00:41:28 -!- bombshelter13__ [n=bombshel@209-161-224-54.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 00:41:46 HG` [n=wells@203-109-202-78.static.ihug.net] has joined #scheme 00:42:00 -!- HG`` [n=wells@203-109-202-78.static.ihug.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:49:41 -!- McManiaC [n=nils@p5B145512.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 00:50:43 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit ["Reconnecting"] 00:50:56 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 00:51:50 -!- Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-67-129-245.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:53:20 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-238-179.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:59:56 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B053B6D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:00:13 -!- Mr-Cat [n=Mr-Cat@78-106-169-71.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:05:20 -!- `sorrow` [n=kvirc@92.0.159.235] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/"] 01:09:02 -!- masquerade [n=rdeaton@pool-96-245-127-86.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 01:10:39 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0F6E.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:16:16 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:17:06 -!- Tom_T [n=tom@adsl-71-156-89-38.dsl.ipltin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:17:12 Tom_T [n=tom@207.250.253.67] has joined #scheme 01:18:50 synthase [n=synthase@68.63.48.10] has joined #scheme 01:31:03 -!- davidad [n=me@NORTHWEST-THIRTYFIVE-FOUR-TWENTY-TWO.MIT.EDU] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:31:41 -!- breily [n=breily@c-69-243-18-122.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:39:32 -!- HG` [n=wells@203-109-202-78.static.ihug.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:48:08 raikov [n=igr@81.153.145.122.ap.yournet.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 01:48:35 HG` [n=wells@203-109-202-78.static.ihug.net] has joined #scheme 01:49:30 chruck1: you want "Berkeley Scheme," a fork of stk. http://inst.eecs.berkeley.edu/~scheme/ 02:01:50 sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-84-44-168-52.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 02:17:02 vaasu [n=yt@123.176.16.91] has joined #scheme 02:17:27 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-137-77.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:17:59 arphid [n=matt@69.162.118.230] has joined #scheme 02:23:50 hi..in gambit how to specify stdout is to be utf-8 encoded? i tried gsi -:8 file.scm > test.utf8.txt with no luck 02:24:02 -!- chruck1 [n=jas@74.167.73.143] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:27:51 elderK1 [n=zk@222-152-91-247.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 02:42:04 -!- metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-127-85-87.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [""Nichts mehr.""] 02:43:10 -!- elderK [n=zk@222-152-90-137.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:43:26 -!- orgy_ [n=ratm_@pD9FFF897.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:52:47 -!- jberg [n=johan@229.84-48-210.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:59:36 https://synx.us.to/code/scheme/html-dom.ss 02:59:56 how's that look for an interface? 03:00:39 -!- RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@92.36.173.229] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:00:43 I was kind of trying to do it the way BeautifulSoup worked, except for the weird "I'm both an object and a procedure!" thing. 03:05:35 npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has joined #scheme 03:10:33 sreeram [n=sreeram@122.164.249.52] has joined #scheme 03:18:24 jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:19:32 breily [n=breily@173.15.193.2] has joined #scheme 03:20:57 -!- jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:23:55 -!- HG` [n=wells@203-109-202-78.static.ihug.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:23:58 -!- raikov [n=igr@81.153.145.122.ap.yournet.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:24:25 *arcfide* sighs. 03:24:38 Remind me again why I wanted to go interface compatible with MIT Scheme's mod_lisp code? 03:26:22 Oh yes, that's right, I had stupid ideas about system similarity and portability. What was I thinking? 03:26:47 mod_ anything starts getting me nervous. 03:26:59 breily_ [n=breily@173.15.192.254] has joined #scheme 03:27:07 synx: You prefer to use, what? 03:28:00 I prefer to have my web applications run in their own process, and use a proxy to route people to them. 03:28:19 synx: So you do the httpd server proxy approach. 03:28:21 yeah, mod_proxy is simpler. 03:28:27 And CGI for anything that isn't worth putting in its own process. 03:28:43 Actually I kind of proxy using squid, but that's a bit of an experiment... 03:29:31 apache's mod_proxy cannot remove the SSL layer, which makes backend servers unnecessarily complex. 03:29:37 synx: Well, of course you have a separate process for handling things, but mod_lisp makes the interface dead-simple between Apache and the other process, so, that, combined with the fact that one other implementation uses it, I figured I might as well go for it. 03:29:57 and makes apache just a glorified pipe. 03:30:22 synx: Well, a pipe that can also handle things like authentication, static file serving, and some other stuff. 03:30:29 SSL... 03:30:33 Et al. 03:30:33 arcfide: The way I see it I'm making web pages anyway, so why leave the HTTP protocol for something "better?" 03:30:46 It can't handle authentication, because it just passes SSL through. 03:30:48 synx: I know a lot of people who feel mostly the same way. 03:31:30 I have an apache server for static files. Just that squid proxies to it. o.o 03:31:37 I think edw here gave up on mod_scgi because by the time he was done, his code as mostly an http server, so he just moved it over to that and ran it through proxy. 03:32:04 I'm not nearly at that point yet. 03:32:27 I really wish the proxy would set headers like "I verified that the client's key was this fingerprint." I'm not sure it's feasible to do that. 03:32:27 hey guys, say i have a procedure (with-transaction thunk) that opens the normal type of transaction, "deferred". which do you like better: 03:32:36 arcfide: neilv had something recently about fastcgi (or one of the modern variants of it), and I think he had some good reasons why it's still better than proxying. You should ask him about it. 03:32:46 (with-immediate-transaction thunk) or (with-transaction* 'immediate thunk) 03:33:04 -!- sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-84-44-168-52.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 03:33:07 -!- breily [n=breily@173.15.193.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:33:40 How many kinds of transaction do you have zbigniew? 03:33:46 3 03:34:06 Then just make three functions, no need to have open ended symbols like that. 03:34:22 eli: Well, I'm not doing any proxying at the moment: I am using mod_lisp, which is mostly analogous to using fastcgi or scgi. 03:34:42 (with-transaction* 'imediate thunk) would not error out until it tried to start the transaction. 03:35:28 arcfide: Yes, the reason I mentioned it is that it might be a better route in any case than the binary approach. 03:35:31 I'd be interested in what neilv has to say. Far as I can tell FastCGI and HTTP can be just about equivalent. 03:35:37 Though HTTP can have a lot more stuff added onto it. 03:35:38 eli: Binary? 03:35:51 arcfide: dll injected into apache. 03:36:18 Oh, isn't that how all mod_* things are written? 03:36:23 -!- hark [n=strider@hark.slew.org] has quit ["leaving"] 03:36:29 Does mod_fastcgi do something different? 03:37:06 arcfide: Yes, but I'd feel more comfortable with just mod_proxy or mod_whatever_the_cgi_thing_is_called than with mod_lisp. 03:37:19 eli: Because it sees more use? 03:37:38 Exactly. Much more. 03:38:18 And with mod_proxy you have hope of cutting Apache out of the loop in the future :) 03:38:50 Also, imagine trying to deploy something on some server that you don't own: it's much more likely to have them than mod_lisp. (And if not, much easier to ask for it.) 03:39:31 foof: IIRC, one of neilv's points for fastcgi was that it's easy to still use Apache to server static content, which was cutting some significant overhead. 03:40:16 synx: So will any procedure that takes arguments 03:41:01 You can still arrange for Apache to serve static context with mod_proxy, you just need to setup the rewrite rules accordingly. 03:42:35 foof: Yes, but it becomes much more regexp-heavy, with the usual baggage. 03:43:59 foof: You wrote irregex, right? 03:44:07 yes 03:44:09 All you need is support for the X-Sendfile header. It is not fastcgi-specific. 03:44:32 lighttpd's mod_proxy_core supports X-Sendfile, for example 03:44:46 I get this warning from Chez that says, "possible incorrect argument count in call (CHUNK-BEFORE? BEST-SRC RIGHT-SRC) at line 2415 of irregex. Is this expected? 03:45:21 The only definition I see of CHUNK-BEFORE? has three arguments, not two. 03:45:39 Yes, that's already been fixed. 03:45:49 Fixed in what? 03:45:54 In development. 03:46:38 you want `cnk' as the first argument to `chunk-before?' 03:46:41 I only see 0.7.2. 03:47:01 foof, Alright. 03:47:09 Thanks. 03:47:19 That's why I said "development." It's not released yet :) 03:48:10 Haha, oh, I thought you had a nice CVS server somewhere in the public arenas. 03:48:55 I gave up on darcs and just recently switched to mercurial. 03:49:58 Why did you give up on Darcs? 03:50:29 Unclear future, and impossibly slow performance on some important use cases for me. 03:50:52 -very- slow performance, yes 03:50:56 ridiculously so 03:55:18 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw372060.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 04:00:42 vaasu: I don't know. My guess would have been gsi -:-8 >outfile, but that's not working for me, either. Try asking in #gambit next door. 04:01:19 ook..thanks 04:01:45 (Or try the mailing list. Looks pretty lightly populated in #gambit right now.) 04:02:40 Good night everyone. 04:03:07 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-14-210-146.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Sleep"] 04:03:08 Good night, moon. 04:10:10 tjafk1 [n=timj@e176208163.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 04:10:25 -!- X-Scale [i=email@2001:470:1f08:b3d:0:0:0:2] has left #scheme 04:11:07 Daemmerung: The funny thing is that it's right next to me now. 04:11:49 neilv [n=user@dsl092-071-029.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #scheme 04:12:13 IRCing from L1? 04:13:04 I'm glad you don't lull the little man to bed with conference proceedings. 04:13:55 Daemmerung: Luckily, I don't do any lulling... He just likes it. 04:14:27 ...and has enough language now to demand that I read it. 04:14:27 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:14:51 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 04:15:02 "Son, tonight we're going to read TOWARDS A NUGATORY SEMIOTICS OF SEMI-HIERARCHICAL KANTIAN ESCHATOLOGIES." 04:16:44 That sounds powerful enough to make the neighbors on all sides fall asleep too. 04:18:15 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@ppp-71-139-37-78.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:21:08 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-200.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:27:23 -!- tjafk2 [n=timj@e176223240.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:27:29 -!- ziggurat [n=ziggurat@pool-173-57-57-115.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:27:38 -!- jld [i=jld@kurobara.xlerb.net] has quit ["Well, I was going to reboot anyway...."] 04:31:55 jld [i=jld@kurobara.xlerb.net] has joined #scheme 04:32:12 -!- vaasu [n=yt@123.176.16.91] has quit [] 04:39:36 reprore__ [n=reprore@ntkngw372060.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 04:40:49 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw372060.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:01:01 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable087.62-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 05:08:53 -!- sreeram [n=sreeram@122.164.249.52] has quit [] 05:31:26 Riastradh: LLP64 == Win64, right? 05:31:32 *mejja* laughs cruelly 05:33:34 pHeze^ [n=pheze@modemcable062.242-82-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 05:40:58 xml sure is a load of crap 05:42:53 -!- pHeze [n=pheze@modemcable062.242-82-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:47:28 -!- meanburrito920_ [n=John@76-217-6-100.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["has been attacked by a grue"] 05:49:26 Win64 is LLP64, yeah. 05:49:46 src/microcode> grep long *.[ch]| wc 05:49:48 2754 16692 155108 05:49:53 hehe hehe hehe 05:50:42 What does a grep intptr return? 05:50:58 Or intptr_t or whatever it's called.... 05:57:33 *mejja* slaps daemmerung 05:57:40 why is ((callexpander (a . b) ) ((callexapander cond) ((= 0 0) 1)) ) illegal? 05:58:23 mejja: Hey, I can dream. 06:01:01 Gambit now has LLP64 support in trunk (or whatever git's equivalent of "in trunk" might be). Should be in the next public release. 06:02:23 pantsd: ... and wtf is callexpander? 06:02:46 eh some macro 06:04:46 and what is callexapander? 06:08:06 -!- kniu [n=kniu@CMU-328092.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:08:31 kniu [n=kniu@CMU-328092.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 06:09:31 -!- kniu [n=kniu@CMU-328092.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:09:48 kniu [n=kniu@CMU-328092.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 06:10:39 -!- kniu [n=kniu@CMU-328092.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:10:52 kniu [n=kniu@CMU-328092.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 06:11:45 -!- kniu [n=kniu@CMU-328092.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:11:58 kniu [n=kniu@CMU-328092.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 06:20:45 -!- drwhen [n=d@c-69-139-19-235.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:23:12 when the xml working group goes out to the forest for team-building exercises, instead of playing tug-of-war and catching each other, they bite the heads off of puppies 06:26:04 I thought they just kicked them 06:26:08 shows what I know 06:32:00 that's the html4 working group 06:44:49 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 06:47:32 to hear them tell it, they're just playing fetch with angle brackets 06:47:38 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:47:53 boomerangs 06:48:19 yes, they leave the razor-sharp part out 06:48:19 steel decapitating boomerangs from the Mad Max movies 06:48:30 zbigniew: beat me to it 06:48:41 we all think alike 06:48:49 we are HiveMind 06:54:24 sreeram [n=sreeram@122.164.249.52] has joined #scheme 06:56:01 -!- kniu [n=kniu@CMU-328092.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:56:08 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 06:56:14 kniu [n=kniu@CMU-328092.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 06:59:32 -!- gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has left #scheme 07:20:56 hey neilv word on the street has it you have a good argument for using FastCGI in preference to a HTTP proxy. 07:21:59 i forget what my argument is 07:22:19 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw372060.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 07:22:51 -!- reprore__ [n=reprore@ntkngw372060.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:23:30 That's because there is no argument. FastCGI is a garbage protocol. 07:25:31 I have a new computer language 07:25:36 Uh... ok so I'll continue not using it then...? 07:25:44 it has bitwise "or" and "not" and also continuations 07:26:34 geckosenator: Why not just reduce it to bitwise "nand"? 07:26:34 ejs [n=eugen@133-104-112-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 07:26:44 My complaints about proxying largely stem from the implementations, not any specific aspect of HTTP. 07:27:48 fastcgi is a pain. i switched to scgi 07:27:51 as in, I would like a proxy that sticks in headers informing what it learned from the client's SSL stuff, but alas I know none that does. 07:28:14 Okay, SCGI then? I don't really know the difference... 07:28:18 SCGI is no good either, stick with proxying. 07:28:43 scgi is incredibly simple-minded, but at least they didn't outsmart themselves 07:29:37 neilv isn't biting on my trolling attempts :/ 07:29:38 SquireOfGothos [n=ryan@75-134-155-234.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has joined #scheme 07:29:42 i have no strong argument against proxying 07:30:23 -!- ejs [n=eugen@133-104-112-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:31:01 i tend to think that apache will parse headers faster than one can do in scheme, but i haven't tested 07:31:14 -!- SquireOfGothos [n=ryan@75-134-155-234.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has quit [Client Quit] 07:31:58 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-188-120.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 07:33:25 -!- sreeram [n=sreeram@122.164.249.52] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:34:03 Well for one, unlike F/SCGI, this information is unavailable to backend servers: http://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.0/mod/mod_ssl.html#envvars 07:34:08 sreeram [n=sreeram@122.164.249.52] has joined #scheme 07:35:25 proxy doesn't sneak that info through somehow? 07:35:28 I'm not sure any of that information is /useful/ but it is only set as environment variables, not HTTP headers. 07:35:33 foof: is that simpler? 07:35:54 foof: I guess so since you can do everything with just that 1 07:36:30 I don't think mod_proxy does neilv, though it /could/. 07:36:45 elderK [n=zk@219-89-245-126.adsl.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 07:36:47 All I want is some kind of a hash of the key the client used to negotiate encryption with. 07:37:32 -!- synthase [n=synthase@68.63.48.10] has quit [Success] 07:37:41 geckosenator: Is what simpler? 07:37:43 The certificate stuff is bunk, frankly. 07:37:56 foof: you suggested nand gates 07:38:10 the ssl CAs are fundamentally flawed 07:38:43 Oh, because NAND is the only gate you need, it can implement AND, OR and NOT. 07:38:57 yeah 07:39:12 -!- elderK1 [n=zk@222-152-91-247.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:39:25 One nice thing about http proxy vs. fastcgi/scgi is that you can talk directly to your app over a browser, when necessary, mostly for testing purposes 07:39:43 neilv: Is there any technology even remotely related to the web that isn't fundamentally flawed? 07:40:36 ejs [n=eugen@133-104-112-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 07:40:52 fundamentally? 07:40:53 well, i'd say most of the rest of it is "very flawed" 07:40:58 -!- npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:41:19 irc is perfect 07:41:23 sreeram_ [n=sreeram@59.92.85.4] has joined #scheme 07:41:29 i have to go now 07:41:31 -!- neilv [n=user@dsl092-071-029.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:45:44 foof: so can NOR IIRC 07:46:10 *eli* would rather eat from his cat's litter box than deal with IRC 07:46:41 i hope you mean the protocol, and not all the fine ladies and gentlemen in here tonight 07:46:47 eli: troubles with your memory? 07:47:01 incubot: and bots, too 07:47:03 it can sometimes be hard to recall correctly 07:47:03 Even bots need a day off now and then. 07:47:09 Adamant: Huh? 07:47:24 If I Recall Correctly, I Recall Correctly 07:47:30 :P 07:47:58 geckosenator: besides the obvious authoritarian leanings of CAs, you cannot sign someone's certificate without giving them the power to sign certificates as yourself. 07:48:21 Adamant: 2*Huh? 07:48:25 Adamant: please to preface statements like that with dynamic_cast 07:49:01 zbigniew: acronyms are not statically typed! 07:49:01 certificates have a second key in addition to the encryption key, a key that is totally ignored except to verify that you do indeed have a certificate from your betters permitting me to speak with you. 07:49:06 just stupid stuff like that. 07:50:48 the general point with SSL certs and CA's is that CA's have a notoriously bad job in general of ensuring the security of their certificates... which is more or less the entire reason CA's are used at all 07:50:54 *have done a 07:51:20 I mean, running a CA is not that hard, and it should be very, very profitable 07:51:38 profitable enough not to make all the fuckups many CA's do 07:52:22 All certificates ensure is that you're authorized by some authority. It's up to that authority to decide whether that means you're malicious or not. Thus giving said authorities unchecked power to be malicious. 07:52:52 I mean you wouldn't trust your money with a system like that would you? OH WAIT 07:53:40 I tellya I'm gonna start paying people in Bison dollars, they're worth about as much these days *grumbles* 07:53:48 synx: nobody is seriously worried about Verisign or whoever running off with money 07:54:05 synx: did Coach CA touch you in the locker room? It's okay, you're among friends. 07:54:14 Adamant: After they totally fucked up DNS just to do advertising? 07:54:50 ? 07:55:08 is this in reference to DNSSEC or something Phorm-like? 07:55:14 People just assume the CAs are upstanding organizations because they have never heard of them before. Really most of them are kind of crooked, at least the ones in the one world root certificate chain. 07:55:24 It's like a pyramid scheme of trust. 07:55:47 Adamant: DNS wildcards. It was a real fiasco a while ago. 07:55:51 synx: they have a very real interest in not being seen to be ripping off their customers, at least in the criminal sense. 07:56:49 You'd be amazed how much people like that can get away with without being seen. 07:56:49 fucking up DNS for advertising purposes is a bit different than widescale larency 07:56:52 *larceny 07:57:05 foof: now I just need algorithms to simplify nand expressions 07:57:27 They inflate strawberries to be bigger, even though both they and we know that the smaller ones are sweeter and don't taste like vegetables. 07:57:27 -!- sreeram [n=sreeram@122.164.249.52] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:58:20 I thought they inject them with corn syrup to make them sweeter 07:58:24 Adamant: I'm not really worried about larceny... that's a lot rarer than the quasi-legal scamming I run into. 07:58:59 hah geckosenator, thankfully no. They only have to make them look tasty, but they gain no profit from actually making them taste good. 07:59:05 incubot: it's common larceny, i sez 07:59:07 Larceny has native SPARC backends along with C. 07:59:49 synx: why is it about gaining profit though? 07:59:52 anyway, for organizations with no significant costs per transaction besides doing a cursory background check which is generally made as cheap as possible, who are producing nothing but bits out of thin air as a product, they should be making enough not to fuck up as much shit as they do. 07:59:57 I swear that's been happening to all sorts of fruit. Stupid ethylene... 08:00:06 synx: I see you've been reading the Ladies' Home Journal again (circa 1900) 08:00:14 geckosenator: sorry, the supermarkets have another goal in mind? 08:00:38 synx: they should 08:01:04 zbigniew: adulterous strawberries 08:01:07 "Strawberries as Large as Apples, Peas as Large as Beets" 08:01:14 or is it adulterated, I forget 08:02:22 zbigniew: o_O 08:03:09 synx: http://paleo-future.blogspot.com/2007/04/what-may-happen-in-next-hundred-years.html 08:03:10 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/36uoyc 08:03:20 Anyway my point is that certificate authorities don't tell me someone isn't a spammer. Really I'd just like to hash the person's public key, and keep a list of those. Instant login! 08:05:01 hot damn I want to get rid of c x and q too. 08:06:12 Man, 08:06:21 Where can I find out about File IO with Scheme? 08:06:38 the Chicken reference says nothing about "oh, this is how you create a port to a file" 08:06:40 zbigniew: The Ladies Home Journal?! O_O 08:06:43 or, whatever. 08:06:51 Indeed. 08:07:32 Still waiting for that university education to be free to every man and woman. *sighs* 08:07:51 I'm just hoping to make it to 50 08:08:02 -!- ejs [n=eugen@133-104-112-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 08:08:16 At least one of us is. 08:12:30 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #scheme 08:18:20 -!- pHeze^ [n=pheze@modemcable062.242-82-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:20:17 -!- lde [n=user@184-dzi-2.acn.waw.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:42:29 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw372060.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 08:44:51 aack [n=user@s559195f7.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #scheme 08:59:53 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-197-238-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 09:01:46 lde [n=user@184-dzi-2.acn.waw.pl] has joined #scheme 09:13:45 jberg [n=johan@229.84-48-210.nextgentel.com] has 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10:47:59 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 10:53:03 synx: the US higher education system likely wouldn't be as good as it is if it wasn't a mix of state and private colleges charging tuition 10:53:24 elderK [n=zk@219-89-245-126.adsl.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 11:02:54 -!- McManiaC [n=nils@p5B145512.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:09:49 davidad [n=me@RANDOM-FOUR-SEVENTY-FOUR.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 11:12:33 -!- sreeram [n=sreeram@122.164.249.52] has quit [] 11:18:15 sreeram [n=sreeram@122.164.249.52] has joined #scheme 11:18:55 -!- lde [n=user@184-dzi-2.acn.waw.pl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:30:17 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #scheme 11:31:38 lde [n=user@184-dzi-2.acn.waw.pl] has joined #scheme 11:34:56 npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has joined #scheme 11:46:03 -!- elderK [n=zk@219-89-245-126.adsl.xtra.co.nz] has left #scheme 11:54:30 lelf [n=lelf@217.118.90.227] has 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[n=bernhard@p549A1B72.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:40:44 elderK [n=zk@219-89-62-160.dialup.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 12:40:47 :) Hey guys, 12:40:58 I was wondering if someone could help me check if I am correct with an excersize in SICP. 12:41:07 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 12:41:13 excersize 1.5 :) 12:41:26 Applicative vs. Normal order evaluation. 12:41:42 I found the applicative expansion of the test function will cause a hang, normal will work fine. 12:42:50 choas [n=lars@p5B0DFDF4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 12:43:02 orgy` [n=ratm_@pD9FFF897.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 12:44:47 npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has joined #scheme 12:46:30 -!- aack`` [n=user@s559195f7.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:49:03 -!- npoektop [n=user@85.202.112.90] has quit [Client Quit] 12:53:41 synthase [n=synthase@68.63.48.10] has joined #scheme 13:06:12 -!- cracki_ [n=cracki@134.130.183.101] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 13:10:54 aack```` [n=user@85.145.149.247] has joined #scheme 13:17:46 -!- elderK [n=zk@219-89-62-160.dialup.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:22:30 elderK [n=zk@122-57-240-228.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 13:22:58 Yay, back. 13:23:11 I just had an amazing 'BOOM!' mindblowing moment. 13:23:28 Where I learned that all the hatred for recursive programs really is unfounded, if tail recursion is optimized. :) 13:23:39 yes! 13:23:39 :D since it just ends up being a cleaner iteration. 13:23:41 ^_^ 13:23:48 Tail recursion is the best thing since sliced bread 13:23:57 :D 13:24:04 That will simplify my life so freaking much. 13:24:21 Like, the idea of having a driver-procedure, as the public access. 13:24:23 And like, 13:24:32 a private function inside - that is tail-recursive. 13:24:34 that passes state. 13:24:47 So much cleaner, clearer than iteration with looping constructs. 13:24:55 ~_~ Reminds me of my AVL implementation, pure iterative, in C. 13:25:00 250 lines of hell. 13:25:01 :P 13:25:22 I can't wait to start applying this :D 13:25:36 *elderK* chases the big glowing lightbulb floating above his head. 13:26:51 Man, this is like a total revalation to me, sjamaan. 13:26:57 :) 13:27:09 The amount of effort and time I have spent on writing purely iterative implementations of all kinds of structures, the complication of it all. 13:27:39 Like, tree traversal (breadth, depth, whatever), without any kind of stack. 13:27:47 no queues, no nothing, only loop construct. 13:27:50 It's freaking nightmarish. 13:27:51 -!- aack``` [n=user@s559195f7.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:27:59 woot 13:27:59 hark [n=strider@2001:5c0:1500:2a00:223:4dff:fe7d:331a] has joined #scheme 13:27:59 -!- hark [n=strider@2001:5c0:1500:2a00:223:4dff:fe7d:331a] has quit [Client Quit] 13:28:16 and it grows structure sizes! Which is FAIL. But man, if tail recursion is optimized in C as well, then life gets so much sexier. 13:28:41 I've heard that gcc can do TCO sometimes 13:28:53 Whoever here last night, said that SICP was like a mindblowing book - I totally, wholeheartedly agree. This blows K&R ANSI C book to hell. 13:29:11 Probably was elf 13:29:18 ^_^ 13:29:33 only sometimes, sjamaan? 13:29:46 yeah, under some situations or sth 13:29:48 hark [n=strider@2001:5c0:1500:2a00:223:4dff:fe7d:331a] has joined #scheme 13:29:48 -!- hark [n=strider@2001:5c0:1500:2a00:223:4dff:fe7d:331a] has quit [Client Quit] 13:29:54 I don't know, you should ask people who know :) 13:32:45 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw372060.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 13:33:34 hark [n=strider@hark.slew.org] has joined #scheme 13:35:40 :) I may. 13:35:42 http://mpathirage.com/recursion-non-recursion-and-tail-recursion-test/ 13:38:07 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:38:37 Aye, apparently TCO is relatively optimized at -O2 :D 13:38:39 /awesome/. 13:38:39 :D 13:39:28 You shouldn't depend on it anyway, because afaik only gcc does that 13:39:50 Aye - but GCC is the compiler I target 98% of the time. 13:39:50 :) 13:39:55 And hey, it's still enlightening :D 13:40:14 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-84-44-168-52.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 13:40:15 GCC is everywhere - even on Windows, I use GCC. 13:40:40 sjamaan: Man, I would love a "System's Scheme" 13:40:40 :D 13:40:49 :) 13:40:57 Seriously, how awesome would that be! 13:41:11 A Scheme-like, but a subet, for like, seriously lowlevel shit :P 13:41:16 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-154-52.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:41:22 :P Like, kernel stuff or drivers and whatnot. 13:41:24 Like pre-scheme? 13:41:31 pre-scheme? 13:41:34 :) 13:41:46 It's a bootstrapping lowlevel scheme used by scheme48 13:41:55 raikov made a port to chicken a while back 13:43:07 aack````` [n=user@s559195f7.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #scheme 13:43:20 so, you use it to compile a scheme interpreter you've written in scheme? 13:43:24 rdd [n=user@c83-250-154-52.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 13:43:31 No, it's not full-blown scheme 13:43:37 It's not GCed, for example 13:43:44 So you have to write your code more carefully 13:43:47 I wonder how it allocates symbols and whatnot then? 13:44:00 It's compiled 13:44:04 No eval 13:44:14 so, no repl? 13:44:15 So there are no randomly created symbols to allocate at runtime 13:44:17 right 13:44:27 interesting :) 13:44:43 that means the dynamic stuff is say, local to procedures and waht? built on the stack? 13:45:00 and that larger things are just, alloc/free like C? 13:45:24 yeah, I think so 13:45:30 I haven't looked into it in detail 13:46:17 RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@92.36.213.19] has joined #scheme 13:47:14 I'd be highly interested in it. 13:47:24 There are some papers on it 13:47:28 Check library.readscheme.org 13:47:32 I'm sure you can find them there 13:48:12 thanks man 13:48:25 heh, bender. 13:48:25 ^_^ 13:48:26 awesome 13:48:34 ? 13:49:22 Speaking of bender, what's up with the web-it website? 13:49:39 celtic.benderweb.net 13:49:39 Web-IT? 13:49:46 Just made me remember Futurama. 13:49:46 :p 13:49:55 Yeah, Bender rocks :) 13:50:01 :D 13:50:04 Bite my shiny metal butt! 13:50:20 :P Reading circuit diagrams as porn 13:50:20 lol 13:50:21 haah 13:50:28 heh 13:51:35 rudybot: doc cond 13:51:37 Mr-Cat_: your sandbox is ready 13:51:38 Mr-Cat_: http://docs.plt-scheme.org/reference/if.html#(form._((lib._scheme%2Fprivate%2Fletstx-scheme..ss)._cond)) 13:59:19 agr... C-c C-r in emacs is annoyingly slow 13:59:40 And seems to be buggy 14:00:13 -!- aack```` [n=user@85.145.149.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:01:09 About 10 seconds for 150 lines 14:05:04 repror___ [n=reprore@ntkngw372060.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 14:06:28 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw372060.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:06:58 I'll have to learn how to bing sending ,l to scheme buffer 14:12:55 jberg [n=johan@229.84-48-210.nextgentel.com] has joined #scheme 14:17:30 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:28:24 sjamaan: that's kiss, not bite :p 14:28:39 and it's ass, not butt :p 14:29:06 leppie: Right :P 14:29:19 I should brush up on my Futurama by watching some! 14:29:38 i still have to watch the movie(s) (i l\belive there are more than 1 out) 14:30:30 3 by now 14:32:07 *leppie* slaps himself into 2009 :p 14:32:14 :) 14:32:27 they were all release for dvd right? 14:32:43 I think so 14:32:48 *sjamaan* is an evil downloader 14:33:35 so does the movies left of where it ended in the series? 14:33:54 or just like 'long episodes' on their own? 14:34:02 More like long episodes 14:34:04 breily [n=breily@173.15.192.254] has joined #scheme 14:35:07 npe [i=npe@naist-wavenet126-102.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 14:35:15 well as long as fansworth and zoidberg are present it will be good :) 14:35:44 :) 14:41:11 -!- breily_ [n=breily@173.15.192.254] has quit [No route to host] 14:41:52 Man this is fun 14:42:21 scheming is a lot of fun :) 14:43:42 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-84-44-168-52.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:48:49 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-84-44-171-250.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 14:52:46 :) Im just working through sicp 14:52:54 Doing the excersizes that seem like fun :) 14:52:58 davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 14:53:21 Atm, it's about tail recursion - and I like doing the questions where they are like 'turn this recursive proces sinto an iterative one' 14:53:26 ^_^ 14:53:32 thats a good one :) 14:53:34 I need to take a few steps to get there though. 14:53:36 -!- repror___ [n=reprore@ntkngw372060.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:54:00 i taught yself the other way, writing a compiler but first in another language i am familar with 14:54:02 Like, I have to write it in a C-ish stlye in Scheme. then, when I understand wtf is actually happening in sequence, I know how to make the recursive call for iterative process. 14:54:02 elderK: As for me after a couple of chapters the excercises become boring 14:54:03 :P 14:54:18 i completely missed the point of named lets for a very long time 14:54:30 :D Oh man, I already love named lets. 14:54:31 then it all became clear :) 14:54:35 and I'm green :) 14:54:51 and leppie, I'm hoping to one day implement a Schemeterpreter in C89. 14:55:14 elderK: You may start right now :) 14:55:19 yet another one :p 14:55:20 My 'main' project is developing an experimental kernel, i've been doing it for about 4 years now. 14:55:30 and I was just thinking it would be neat to be able to have the first userspace application, 14:55:33 me a scheme interpreter. 14:55:33 :p 14:55:43 s/^m/b/ 14:55:44 cool :) 14:55:45 :) 14:56:02 :P Now I keep wishing I could write the whole damned kernel in Scheme. 14:56:07 i had that dream once for Portable .NET 14:56:07 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-84-44-171-250.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 14:56:22 you writing the kernel yourself? 14:56:40 But already, from reading about 100 pages of SICP - My minds been opened :D and lights have gone off. I should be able to simplify some of the C greatly - if GCC TCO is as good as some of the web seems to think. 14:56:41 Yup. 14:57:00 Nothing else around quite like my kernel. It's cool, just in a totally headfuck way. 14:57:01 Actually. 14:57:03 elderK: A managed kernel is a nice adea, but all such projects I know use statically typed languages 14:57:08 that kind of describes me perfectly. 14:57:26 The core is in Assembly and strict C89. 14:57:33 that's neat, i wish i could have done something liek that, but it's a bit out of my league :p 14:57:43 Heh :P Atm man, Scheme feel slike that to me :) 14:58:05 Kernel dev, Memory management, data structures - they were my obsession for a very long time - literally. 14:58:07 :P 14:58:15 elderK: I would like write a kernel for fun in scheme :) 14:58:24 *elderK* starts uploading some NiN to Mp3 player 14:58:26 elderK: I am writing a scheme->asm compiler 14:58:27 i find when translating from my C# code, it translates rather easy into scheme, and that might go for C too 14:58:29 *elderK* gets ready for his midnight wander 14:58:48 :D really davazp? 14:59:06 You'd need to expose hooks for needed userspace stuff. Say, a minimal subset. 14:59:32 a toy scheme compiler, of course :) 14:59:36 :P I don't intend to have (open-input-file ...) etc for a long while. My interest in the kernel is more... pushing the envelope of what a lot of people tend to think or, seem to think. 14:59:49 so, it's more about flexbility and modularity and NOT being shit slow . 14:59:54 than about 'oh yeah, it can do really practical things' 14:59:55 :p 15:00:14 :P Yes, I'm a crackpot. 15:00:15 :p 15:00:15 lol 15:00:28 can it jump around on one leg and squeal liek pig? 15:00:37 :) 15:01:27 :P No, but it can literally reconstruct itself at runtime without requiring a reboot :P The bootloader itself is entirely dynamic (literally, it's constructed at boot time). The bootloader uses shared libraries that the kernel itself uses... and this is immediate - active in teh first 512B. 15:01:28 :) 15:01:52 good enough for me :) 15:02:09 ^_^ It can remove active libraries - even when in use by multiple threads, replacing it with another - all without shutdown or reboot. 15:02:10 elderK: is free software your OS? can we take a look? 15:02:38 Aye, it's open. But i'd prefer to keep the source obscured for the time being. 15:02:46 That's one weird thing, 15:02:49 I'm proud of it. 15:02:52 But I'm afraid to show anyone anything. 15:02:59 :) That's part of why I'm trying Scheme. 15:03:03 to try and de-obsessivify myself. 15:03:12 Stop being so compulsive about minute things. 15:03:29 And I figured, what better way than to take a leap and learn something new that turns everything I love about programming upside down? Recursion Good? WOAH! 15:03:30 :p 15:04:54 I'm just hoping that Schemifying my life will bring some motivation back. 15:05:00 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 15:05:13 ~_~ Just, growing so sick of C and so many of the same ideas, that... my passion felt like it was burning away. 15:05:16 Anywho :) 15:05:19 Walk, NiN! 15:05:26 :P I'll bring back coffee for ye all. 15:05:27 great, let us know if you release it :) 15:05:45 :) I can flip you guys some links to some of the core libraries sometime. 15:06:03 bbs! 15:19:55 seamus-android [n=user@cpc3-brig3-0-0-cust124.brig.cable.ntl.com] has joined #scheme 15:21:54 -!- davidad [n=me@RANDOM-FOUR-SEVENTY-FOUR.MIT.EDU] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:27:08 -!- aack````` [n=user@s559195f7.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:28:24 McManiaC [n=nils@p5B1473DA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 15:28:54 -!- McManiaC [n=nils@p5B1473DA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:30:12 -!- jberg [n=johan@229.84-48-210.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:34:09 jberg [n=johan@229.84-48-210.nextgentel.com] has joined #scheme 15:44:49 gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has joined #scheme 15:47:58 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-84-44-171-250.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 15:53:17 -!- davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:56:40 elderK, what kind of kernel is it? 16:01:33 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-53.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 16:06:05 elias` [n=me@cs78208074.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 16:11:21 jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-18.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 16:11:24 Hey guys! 16:11:41 Hey ho, elderK. 16:12:06 jewel: It originated as a microkernel design but, the more research and time I put into it, after so much searching and stress, I realized that a /pure/ microkernel just wasn't going to give me the speed I wanted. 16:12:21 So, even though the terminology is kind of hated, I'd class it as a hybrid kernel. 16:12:27 :P My personal name for it is a metakernel 16:12:55 :D Hey jcowan 16:13:28 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:13:45 Really, all the kernel is though - at it's core - is a very clever dynamic linker. 16:14:16 Everything that actually does anything, is a shared object. That includes Memory Management, Scheduling and the like. Other things can be added at runtime to open the kernel tonew functionality. 16:14:26 What differentiates the kernel from say, a standard modular kernel though, 16:14:54 is that the linker keeps track of every individual symbols users - in every shared object - without adding any extra memory overhead. 16:15:10 -!- Mr_Awesome [n=eric@pool-98-108-11-12.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:15:35 Mr_Awesome [n=eric@pool-98-115-34-241.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 16:15:37 Because the linker knows what symbols a given library is using, and only what symbols of libraries it depends on, and where - it can replace things at runtime in quite flexible ways. 16:15:38 :) 16:16:04 For multiprocessor systems, there is some dark locking shit going on, when modules are replaced. 16:16:30 In essence, modules/shared objects are reference counted - so that they are retained aslong as a thread is in the object's space, executing. 16:16:42 Anywho, :P Im rambling. 16:16:48 :) My bad,. 16:19:39 -!- McManiaC_ is now known as McManiaC 16:26:48 bughunter2 [n=j@ip4da4427e.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #scheme 16:30:20 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 16:30:40 Adamant: You could call the US higher education system "good" if you really stretched things. 16:31:34 "better than anywhere else"? 16:31:42 that seems like less of a stretch 16:34:10 elderK: have you read the papers about Cheetah from MIT? it was a ludicrously fast exokernel which let them do things like zero-copy network IO by precomputing TCP packets on disk and filling in only the changing bits 16:34:50 anybody have links or advice for hash functions of composite values? What I want to write a hash function for is (mostly) a list of strings... 16:35:25 The obvious advice is to make the hash value of a composite a function of the hash values of the components. 16:36:01 yeah, I figured that much :-). but /how/ combine the hash values? 16:36:15 You could say the students are better than anyone else. I don't see the school helps that much though. 16:36:21 Elly, I did indeed :) 16:36:51 Still, I am proud of my little kernel :) 16:36:59 rotty: s[0]*31^(n-1) + s[1]*31^(n-2) + ... + s[n-1] is as good as any 16:37:04 synx: http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=4339960 16:37:04 It's like saying glyphosate is healthy for plants, because the ones that do survive are extra healthy. 16:38:00 elderK: we have a class here which requires students to write a small monokernel with VM and preemptive multitasking 16:38:00 It's been shown that essentially all American law schools provide the same education, and which ones are prestigious is a function entirely of how they select their incoming students. 16:38:20 pHeze [n=pheze@modemcable062.242-82-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 16:38:38 I kind of lost my faith in universities when I learned that, I kid you not, they seriously make classes that only exist to fail students who aren't awesome. 16:38:43 VM meaning virtual machine? Or, the V8086/VMX stuf? 16:38:49 virtual memory 16:38:51 and Elly, you are at MIT? God, I envy you. 16:38:53 Oh, right. 16:39:00 elderK: no, I'm at CMU :) 16:39:03 :D That's really, really fun :D 16:39:06 And sure enough, the graduates of such programs are awesome. Everyone tries not to think about the others. 16:39:13 -!- gnomon [n=gnomon@CPE001d60dffa5c-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["power going out for a smoke alarm replacement"] 16:39:24 it is, in fact, really fun. The project after that is usually something like an IDE driver + file system or a bootloader 16:39:28 Oh gosh, home of Mach! 16:39:30 I don't think anybody at MIT has enough free time to come here :p 16:39:37 indeed 16:39:38 and of AFS 16:39:40 :) 16:39:45 And Accent, iirc. 16:39:49 :D And many other cool things. 16:39:49 and Accent, yes 16:39:56 :) I'm just a self taught hacker :) 16:40:23 Who got fed up with the stuff I /was/ being taught. So, I decided to focus on my own personal research, channel it into something that could hopefully serve as a) something interesting for others b) a portfolio 16:40:24 :) 16:40:42 students come out of the operating systems class with a kernel approximating the earliest unices 16:40:47 I never saw a kernel as all that challenging a project you know? Bootstrapping is kind of a difficult concept, but besides that it's mostly tedium writing many drivers to form a common interface for many diverse hardwares. 16:40:54 (i.e. fork, exec, wait, exit, blocking I/O) 16:41:13 synx: it's easy, except for two things: concurrency and debugging 16:41:15 Aye Elly :) One of the first things I read was the UNIX Design and implementation. 16:41:29 "Easy", depends on design. but aye. 16:41:35 :D System III sources. 16:41:36 that was fun. 16:41:42 concurrency is easy in the kernel, because on the kernel level it's just an event loop. 16:41:48 ...no 16:41:53 davidad [n=me@NORTHWEST-THIRTYFIVE-TWO-SEVENTEEN.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 16:41:56 heh. 16:42:00 it's *not* easy in the kernel, because we have preemptive multitasking 16:42:09 I guess debugging could be a Hell Hole. Not if you have two computers though. 16:42:21 *bughunter2* sits back to watch the debate, grabs cookies.. 16:42:26 Anyhow, what counts as hard depends on your background knowledge. 16:42:28 davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 16:42:29 'debate' :) 16:42:31 even with two computers you'd still need to implement support in your kernel for the target machine 16:42:39 er, support for debugging your kernel 16:42:52 *elderK* is from the class of '87, running System III UNIX on a M68010 with MC68881 16:42:53 x86 commodity hardware doesn't have debuggers in ROM like real hardware does :P 16:42:54 Elly: I don't see how preemptive multitasking is hard for the kernel. Hard for applications, sure. 16:42:58 In the early days, there was a research program called "automatic programming", the purpose of which was to make programmers unnecessary by allowing anyone to write code. 16:43:01 synx: the kernel can be preempted 16:43:15 synx: which means your kernel has many of the same concurrency problems as userland 16:43:26 Aye. You don't just disable interrupts when you enter kernelspace. 16:43:27 Unlike the AI project, which started around the same time, this one was a resounding success that actually delivered. 16:43:30 No Elly I meant having a second machine to send printed text to, reported by the kernel. It's the only way to save a kernel panic to a log file. 16:43:32 getting kernel preemption right is difficult, and we require students to have a preemptable kernel 16:43:36 You allow the kernel to be interrupted :) 16:43:38 What it delivered is now known as an "assembler". 16:43:38 synx: oh, yes, that would be the case 16:43:41 You allow the interrupts to be interrupted :) 16:43:48 Oh, well you didn't say a preemptible kernel. 16:43:48 Within reason. 16:43:49 ^_^ 16:43:54 synx: we have students develop in an excellent x86 simulator called simics 16:43:59 That does sound pretty tough. 16:44:04 It is tough. 16:44:05 lol 16:44:15 elderK: well, the PIC will only allow you to be reinterrupted by a higher-priority interrupt, so that can only happen so many times 16:44:16 Elly, what kind of things would you need to get entrance to CMU? 16:44:16 for varying degrees of excellent... 16:44:22 *elderK* sighs, dreams of CMUness 16:44:23 elderK: I have no idea 16:44:26 oh I'm sorry. 16:44:38 simics is actually pretty excellent 16:44:40 I thought you said "we have students develop an excellent x86 simulator called simics" 16:44:47 haha, no :P 16:44:51 that would take more than a semester 16:44:55 Simics /is/ cool. I've just never got to use it. 16:44:56 I'm partial to qemu myself. 16:44:57 -!- jberg [n=johan@229.84-48-210.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:45:00 Elly, you're a student? 16:45:07 Bochs ,personally :) 16:45:13 And real hardware. 16:45:15 Yeah x86 is wicked. 16:45:16 I am a student, yes 16:45:21 -!- davidad [n=me@NORTHWEST-THIRTYFIVE-TWO-SEVENTEEN.MIT.EDU] has quit [Client Quit] 16:45:31 bochs and qemu are much faster than simics, but both are not as accurate and not deterministic 16:45:34 :P M68k is wicked. 16:45:55 davidad [n=me@NORTHWEST-THIRTYFIVE-TWO-SEVENTEEN.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 16:45:59 x86 architecture is the horridest arbitrariness that has ever existed 16:46:03 for example, qemu ignores the segment registers as a speed hack, because every Real OS sets them up the exact same way. However, the students can get it wrong... 16:46:06 it is the ultimate triumph of worse is better 16:46:08 By accurate you mean there are certain x86 instructions that say, qemu gets wrong? 16:46:08 Amen, jcowan. 16:46:34 synx: I just listed an example of where qemu trades accuracy for speed 16:46:42 jcowan: Four different forms of mov, each with a different byte length! :D 16:46:58 *sjamaan* facepalms 16:46:58 simics is also cycle-accurate - what that means is that if your kernel faulted at cycle 1000 last time, it will also fault exactly at cycle 1000 this time 16:47:06 Ah, okay Elly. 16:47:21 Wow, that sounds difficult to get right. 16:47:27 jcowan: it's also the ultimate triumph of cheaper is better :P 16:47:48 Elly: touche ;) 16:48:29 So since we have Teh Hackers here, how about some help with the simple matter of implementing ISLisp condition handling, also horridly arbitrary? 16:48:39 x86 is cheaper? 16:48:43 yup 16:48:50 back in the day, anyway, synx. 16:48:53 I've never used ISLisp jcowan 16:48:59 elderK: cheaper than what? 16:49:08 Nobody has, but that's part of the point. I'll explain. 16:49:14 Sparcs, 68ks, PowerPCs... back in the day. 16:49:23 Even now, you can get x86 development boards cheaper than say, Coldfires or PowerPC. 16:49:26 Oh, well... 16:49:32 The 8088 had an 8-bit datapath, which made it cheap enough to use in classic PCs. 16:49:38 That sounds more like politics than technology to me. 16:49:50 also, x86en are dirt cheap right now and nothing else of comparable performance is 16:50:02 Dirty code run dirt cheap 16:50:19 I still say Apple should have stuck with PowerPC. But the awfulness of x86 can't overcome the titanic amount of time and effort people have spent to get it working well. 16:50:34 modern x86en internally rewrite the CISC instructions into RISCish microops, so really the dirtiness is just the interface layer between your program and a clean RISC core :P 16:50:39 synx: with sufficient thrust... 16:50:47 So I really can't blame them... but x86 is only cheaper because it's popular, right? 16:51:04 Anyhow, when you raise an ISLisp condition, you pass along a "continuability string" which is meant to explain to a human being what happens if you continue from the condition; if it's nil, it's an error to try to continue. 16:51:24 synx: in the beginning, no; now, yes. 16:51:29 synx: I think when it first came out, 808[68] was also very much underpowered 16:51:32 I heard about that Elly. That was probably the idea that saved x86 :) 16:51:36 synx: also because it's, well, cheaper. No debugger in ROM -> less cost, and so on 16:51:36 jcowan: how does one localize such a continuability string? 16:51:37 It had very few registers, which made it cheap 16:52:01 Daemmerung: With an a-list, I suppose. It doesn't have to be meaningful. 16:52:06 aye, sjamaan. 16:52:40 A meaningless explanation, then. That is indeed standard procedure. 16:52:45 continue from the condition jcowan? Where do you pass this string? You mean like (raise "string")? 16:52:56 (raise-condition ) 16:53:20 where describes the condition 16:53:28 Okay, that's pretty sensible. Users are natural language speakers after all. 16:53:55 Now you would think that these two args would be passed to the condition handler as, well, two args. 16:53:56 But no. 16:54:15 If you want the string, you have to extract it from the condition-object with an accessor. 16:54:46 That's easy too: it could be embedded in the condition, or associated with it using a weak hashtable. 16:54:49 But. 16:55:25 *Daemmerung* bates his breath 16:55:47 If the handler wants to reraise the condition, instead of just returning a la Common Lisp, it invokes raise-condition too. 16:55:56 And it can pass a different continuability object. 16:56:14 So the poor condition is asked to pass a result that is not bound to its own existence, 16:56:23 jberg [n=johan@229.84-48-210.nextgentel.com] has joined #scheme 16:56:26 but to one of potentially many acts of invocation. 16:57:04 -!- pHeze [n=pheze@modemcable062.242-82-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:57:40 So you mean that say for instance the backtrace might screech to a halt inside whatever exception handler, since it was forced to discard the information about the exception it was handling? 16:58:03 Never mind backtraces for now 16:58:26 Conditions aren't exceptions; they don't imply a non-local transfer of control. 16:58:38 The condition runtime takes the two parms to RAISE-CONDITION and makes a single aggregated object that it passes to the handler? 16:59:07 Overwriting whatever previous cont-string may have been assoc'd with that cont-obj? 16:59:53 Well, the spec does not say that 17:00:22 I see two parms going into RAISE-CONDITION, and one object (with the same name as one of RAISE-CONDITION's parms) going to the handler. 17:00:38 After all, if the internal signal is continued (returns), the handler for the external signal raising should still be able to access its view of the c-string. 17:00:48 So overwriting is not really an answer 17:01:06 I thought of making a weak hash from the condition to a stack of c-strings, but it's not clear when to pop the stack. 17:02:26 Is there a notion of object identity in these condition objects? A re-raised condition could otherwise be an entirely new object. 17:02:35 Yes, there is 17:02:48 they are ordinary Lisp objects that need not even be instances of 17:02:53 that is just a convenience class 17:03:20 What do you mean by "don't imply a non-local transfer of control"? Condition handlers aren't just 'else' clauses to if statements...? 17:05:18 If you raise a condition, you are still in the dynamic scope of the raiser 17:05:25 you have not yet unwound the stack 17:05:36 jcowan: assembler, for a moment i thought you were gonna say visual basic! :) 17:05:40 Oh, okay. 17:05:52 Why's that? To enable returning or something? 17:05:53 LOL 17:05:54 that happens only if you use a non-local transfer (return-from, go, or throw) 17:05:59 synx: Exactly 17:06:11 Lisps have resumption rather than termination semantics for their conditions 17:06:21 So there are three ways out of a condition handler 17:06:52 So raise is basically a continuation into the current "condition handler" 17:07:21 (a) non-local transfer (b) continue the caller (c) reraise the exception 17:07:29 It's almost just a call 17:07:44 Yeah... 17:07:50 Weak hash associates a c-obj with a stack of c-strings. Accessor returns the top c-string for a given c-obj. Re-raising pushes a new c-string onto the stack. 17:08:02 the only difference being that the current handler is popped off the handler stack temporarily, so that handlers do not have to try to handle their own conditions 17:08:19 Daemmerung: Just so. But when to pop the stack? 17:08:53 maybe you just collect the stack when the c-obj is collected. 17:09:04 That's the point of a weak table, yes 17:09:08 Does the stack ever need to be popped? Are the other c-strings not there only for backtraces? 17:09:23 History list rather than stack, I should have said. 17:09:35 No, they must be restored if the inner handler gets control 17:09:58 iow a handler that first re-raises, then tries to get the current c-string, must get the original c-string, not the one it put there 17:10:54 Ah, I see. The handler re-raises, the subhandler continues, the original handler recovers control after its re-raise. 17:10:59 Just so 17:11:31 yeah its all very whack, but it works :) 17:11:51 unfortunately for that to work perfectly, you need delimited continuations :( 17:12:17 -!- davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has left #scheme 17:12:27 Ah, I didn't see the worst part yet 17:12:32 arrgh 17:12:50 We can safely pop the stack of c-strings when the subhandler returns control. 17:13:07 if it does so explicitly by a call to continue-condition, as is normal 17:13:21 But suppose it does a non-local transfer *into the original handler* instead?!! 17:13:48 Just overflowed /my/ stack. More coffee now. 17:14:01 are we talking about 'guard' now? 17:14:58 iow, if the original handler sets a catchpoint before reraising, and then the subhandler throws into that cathpoint, are we "really" in the subhandler still, or have we returned to the original handler? 17:18:02 slom [n=slom@pD9EB7131.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 17:18:13 I wonder how far I can use tail recursion. 17:18:21 Say, a level-order traversal of some tree. 17:18:22 forever 17:18:32 I wonder if I could implement that with tail recursion? 17:18:49 traversing tree with tail recursion is just hard to write 17:18:59 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 17:19:00 I figure I can, because I can implement it purely iterative. I just wonder if I can d oit, without having to have a queue or something. 17:19:29 then again, Scheme makes it awefully easy to construct a queue... since everything is a list. 17:19:29 :) 17:20:36 Especially if you use a tconc cell 17:20:43 leppie: I don't know; what do you mean by "guard" 17:20:44 ? 17:22:27 the guard macro in R6RS and SRFI 34 17:23:52 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 17:24:35 Scheme makes it awefully easy to construct a stack. Queues have scaling problems if you don't use the double stack trick. Very minor scaling problems though, so largely not a concern. 17:24:57 how do you mean, sync? 17:25:09 because what? the list is singly linked? 17:25:14 synx: that sounds very implementation specific 17:26:15 sidnfh [i=7bb011cf@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-52ce21e8f6a0f749] has joined #scheme 17:26:30 leppie: ? 17:26:51 (last l) is an O(n) operation. 17:27:09 That's not implementation specific by any means. 17:28:07 jcowan: how is the islisp condition system different from the one in CL? 17:28:27 plt async channels, now those are implementation specific queues. 17:28:35 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:28:49 duncanm: I've been explaining that 17:28:52 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #scheme 17:28:53 oh 17:28:55 nice ones too. 17:29:00 i'll look at the history later 17:29:03 time to shower 17:29:14 in short, you reraise conditions by raise-condition, and there's a string associated with each raise 17:29:21 indicating what happens if you continue 17:29:23 how does writing a stack/queue in scheme make it any less 'scalable' than any other algorithm? 17:29:27 otherwise it's just raise and handler-bind 17:29:38 If your thread pops from an async channel and hangs on an empty queue, and both the queue and the thread become collectable, the whole thing can just disappear magically. 17:30:11 hi.. how to import r5rs cons and friends (which is mutable) to plt v4 without shadowing other functions by r5rs? i tried (require (only-in r5rs [cons car ...])), but no luck.. 17:30:18 tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #scheme 17:30:33 leppie: I mean that if you have a list of 6 million items, and you look for the last item, it's possible you might notice a delay. 17:30:56 -!- jberg [n=johan@229.84-48-210.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:32:26 sidnfh: you cannot. Use scheme/mpair. 17:33:28 ow.. in that case, plt v3 cannot understand how to import mpair.. i want the source to be compatible with both plt v3 and plt v4 17:34:17 sidnfh: prefix? 17:34:27 -!- Mr-Cat_ [n=Mr-Cat@78-106-169-71.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:34:39 er.. what do you mean prefix? 17:34:48 He's going to encounter other problems when his "cons" generates mconses. 17:35:17 (require (prefix-in m (only-in r5rs cons car ...))) 17:35:26 synx, leppie: hence tconc 17:35:33 Does that not work with v3? 17:35:45 a pair that points to the first and last pairs of the list you are using as a queue, or (() . ()) if hte queue is empty 17:35:46 jcowan: tconc? 17:35:53 see above 17:36:49 sidnfh: as far as I know, v3 does not even contain the scheme/base language 17:37:07 That's a nice idea, but when you shift a value from a queue, there's no way to find the second-to-last pair. 17:37:07 why do you want your code to be backward compatible? 17:37:17 What you need is a queue formed from two stacks. 17:37:28 Ah, you mean a deque 17:37:35 jcowan: what would be the downside of making the c-string association depend solely on the identity of the c-obj? Any RAISE-CONDITION supplying a new c-string for a given c-obj has redefined the c-string for that particular c-obj. 17:37:44 well .. at one place i have v3.. debian etch 17:38:05 v3 is the latest from stable line 17:38:24 well then do not use scheme/base and the #lang stuff 17:38:50 used (module name mzscheme ....) 17:39:15 Well, it doesn't actually have to be a string: nil means "not continuable" 17:39:20 deque is an operation on a queue, not a structure...? 17:39:38 Anyway this is what I mean https://synx.us.to/code/scheme/queue2.ss 17:39:45 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deque 17:39:57 I think that for a condition system, it works. At some point a handler declares a particular exception as no longer continuable. 17:40:17 "shift" and "take" are probably bad words to use... 17:40:18 "Dude, we are so hosed... give up...." 17:40:25 sidnfh: or stay with 372 everywhere 17:40:32 It's not the handler that sets this, it's the raiser. 17:40:48 It would be the handler setting it if it re-raised the condition. 17:41:12 hmm 17:41:42 Oh I see jcowan, double ended queue = deque. 17:41:51 But no, I meant a single ended queue. 17:42:06 In that case, the tconc cell works fine 17:42:10 -!- wrldpc [n=worldpea@ool-ad03fe34.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 17:42:12 pull from the front, push to the back 17:42:18 I guess you could pop stuff off the top of my implementation, but I haven't figured that out. 17:42:28 ... 17:42:39 Yeah, that would work wouldn't it. I was thinking pull from the back. 17:42:46 -!- z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 17:42:54 But wouldn't you need set-cdr! to push to the back? 17:43:17 Yes 17:43:28 I didn't know we were talking about immutables here 17:44:05 well, my way works with immutables. Though an immutable queue is extremely tricky to get from. 17:44:29 z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #scheme 17:44:41 But really it'd probably be 3x more efficient to just set-cdr! once instead of a push, pop, push for each element. 17:44:58 time for queue3.ss x3 17:44:58 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-188-120.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:45:51 Tconc has been around a long time 17:46:51 Not in scheme... 17:47:53 It's much older than Scheme, and certainly can be used in Scheme, since it's just a convention. 17:48:07 I think Maclisp had a couple of functions built in to manage tconc queues 17:48:24 pulling involves one mutation and pushing involves two 17:49:08 Hey guys, 17:49:15 What is the proper way to update a variable within a function? 17:49:20 say, to increment it? 17:49:37 (set! var (+ 1 var)) == bad, right? 17:50:18 You need to ask yourself why you are updating it at all, rather than (say) rebinding it 17:50:33 make it a parameter of the recursive procedure 17:51:27 or use a named-let if you are looping 17:51:33 or (shudder) "do" 17:51:39 -!- sidnfh [i=7bb011cf@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-52ce21e8f6a0f749] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 17:52:17 *sjamaan* wonders why "do" is still in the spec 17:52:56 Tradition. 17:52:57 i used it once, when i was trying to remember the syntax 17:53:05 :) I just used do. 17:53:07 heh, exactly 17:53:15 See, I'm going to rewrite what I was doing - into a recursive procedure. 17:53:16 Its syntax is horrible 17:53:31 but, I'm not used to that yet - so, I'm 'working through it' 17:53:35 then converting it to recursion :) 17:53:50 and aye, it is horrible. 17:53:51 jcowan: They ditched '() = #f too 17:53:51 oty. 17:53:52 *oy 17:54:03 btw, did scheme ever have do* ? 17:54:19 Not in the standard, no 17:54:36 elderK: Say you have a variable "var" that you want to update to (+ 1 var) within a procedure 17:54:46 Once 'nil = nil was ditched, the other was inevitable, though long-delayed 17:54:46 (let ((var (+ 1 var))) (display var)) 17:54:52 And that's how you do it. 17:55:04 you can still hack compiled Chicken to make () a false value, though not eq to #f 17:55:18 One wonders why you want to have two different values in the same variable in the same spot. 17:55:19 jcowan: But that was also tradition, is what I'm saying 17:55:38 Right, but it was actively harmful and stupid. do is just excrescent. 17:56:04 Yes, but it also makes the base language bigger for no real reason 17:56:18 The spec starts by stating that piling feature on top of feature is frowned upon 17:56:34 do is a pretty gratuitous feature 17:56:41 elderK: Are you incrementing var along some set of integers? 17:57:36 If you think in do's, it's actually quite powerful 17:57:45 the Elders probably expected it to be heavily used 17:58:01 Most people think in named LETs, though 17:59:10 As it happened 18:01:35 I occasionally use `do'. It is both useful and a good example of a nontrivial syntax-rules macro (R5RS 7.3). 18:03:05 https://synx.us.to/code/scheme/queue3.ss 18:03:40 mejja, I don't know anything about Windows' API. I do know, however, that off_t has had 64 bits for decades on BSD, and at long, long last, some operating systems are moving to 64-bit time_t. 18:04:12 They'd better hurry, only 29 years left! 18:04:23 haha 18:04:40 foof: I figured out the problem your parser has with declarations. 18:05:13 synx: Once again, it's bedtime where I live... please mail me :) 18:05:17 :D Yay! I did it! 18:05:20 I made it tail recursive! :D 18:05:27 maybe later 18:05:35 elderK: sweet! 18:05:44 :D 18:06:06 :) Once you understand what you actually need to happen in sequence, making it recursive isn't hard at all 18:06:20 because then you know precisely what state you need to pass :D 18:08:04 Riastradh: LLP64 is the very annoying scheme where sizeof long is 4, but sizeof void* is 8. Features in Win64 and (I hope, I pray) nowhere else. 18:09:18 I see. 18:09:19 -!- rudybot [n=luser@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:10:12 src/microcode> grep " long " *.[ch] | wc => 1152 6415 58125 18:10:24 IIRC, some *ixes are also LLP64 18:10:48 Does anyone know of a canonical list of all these architecture acronyms? 18:10:57 gnomon [n=gnomon@CPE001d60dffa5c-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 18:11:11 Solaris is LP64, Linux is LP64, BSD is I assume likewise. Don't know the others. (AIX?) 18:11:29 ^_^ I like this higher order procedure stuff 18:11:30 :d 18:11:42 18:12:20 LP32, ILP32, LP64, and LLP64 are the ones I know of 18:17:58 rudybot [n=luser@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 18:18:56 Hey guys, is there a way to say, 18:19:19 open a file for binary input - read exactly 4 bytes and store them in exactly 4bytes of storage? 18:19:25 and say, seek around the file we open? 18:19:31 Is that implementation specific? 18:19:39 or is that covered by r5rs? 18:19:58 Not in R5RS. 18:22:03 So, imp specific. 18:22:04 :) 18:22:06 Thanks :) 18:22:13 :P I might try writing a little linker in Scheme for fun. 18:22:32 bughunter2 here is a close friend, he can tell you how much I love to turn executables into crazy pulp. 18:22:32 :P 18:22:48 :P 18:23:13 and you love to ramble too ;) 18:23:21 but that's ok ;) 18:23:52 elderK: r5rs does not specify binary IO, afaik 18:24:02 elderK: r6rs does 18:24:57 :P 18:25:05 I'm a ltitle unsure of how to even go about extraction binary stuff. 18:25:21 I figure I'll have to extract the data from the file, and 'unpack' it? 18:25:47 It'd be useful if I could specify precisely that I want a vector of bytes. 18:26:00 I may be able to *reads docs* 18:33:49 zedstar [n=john@fsf/member/zedstar] has joined #scheme 18:33:55 -!- McManiaC [n=nils@p5B1473DA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 18:44:27 jberg [n=johan@229.84-48-210.nextgentel.com] has joined #scheme 18:48:52 -!- npe [i=npe@naist-wavenet126-102.naist.jp] has quit [] 18:58:11 Mr-Cat [n=Mr-Cat@bahirkin1507.static.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 19:04:13 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 19:05:10 how do I get auto-indentation in the command line repl like I can for emacs? Is there any .inputrc trickery to be had? 19:05:26 In what implementation? 19:05:36 Yes: use your REPL under Emacs. 19:05:50 This is nearly independent of what REPL or Lisp system you're talking about. 19:06:33 jcowan: Ah, the wonderful world of srfis :) 19:07:14 I was wondering, when someone posts up an srfi - and people want to use the srfi with their scheme implementation - how exactly do they bring it in? Do they have to modify their implementation's source code? Or do they literally, just update/replace the REPL with their extended version? 19:07:25 oh, and guys. 19:07:27 *Riastradh* blinks. 19:07:31 *elderK* finally orders the coffee for all 19:07:31 meanburrito920_ [n=John@76-217-6-100.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 19:07:38 heya Riastradh :) 19:07:50 ahhh 19:07:51 coffee 19:08:06 Depends on the SRFI. 19:08:18 And depends on the implementation. 19:08:27 Riastradh I just meant when I try sisc or gsi from the command line it doesn't indent - just wondered if it was possible to get to pay attention to tabs and ident. I am happy with emacs run-scheme mode but sometimes it's nice to just try something quick on the command line. 19:08:29 Many but not all come with reference implementations; ideally all, but some cannot be expressed directly in Scheme. 19:10:03 so, some actually need modifications to the implementation core? 19:10:31 Indeed 19:10:43 wrldpc [n=worldpea@69.38.252.83] has joined #scheme 19:10:45 no way to implement ERROR if you don't already have something like it 19:10:53 Not necessarily, elderK. Those Scheme systems that already support similar properties need not be modified internally. 19:11:16 For example, it would probably be straightforward to implement SRFI 18 in Scheme48 without touching Scheme48's source code. 19:11:33 elderK: see srfi 97(?) for a list of srfis which can implemented in portable r6rs code 19:11:50 No, slom. 19:12:01 elderK: there is also some details as to why others can not 19:12:27 SRFI 97 gives names in the R6RS's module language for many SRFIs that are realizable as libraries. 19:12:40 Riastradh: could you weigh in on this point: when condition-handler foo has raised an exception that is being handled by condition-handler bar, if bar does a non-local transfer of control into foo, ought the handler stack to be reset? 19:12:42 That doesn't mean, for instance, that SRFI 18 can be implemented using only what the R6RS provides. 19:12:57 Omitted SRFIs 19:12:59 SRFIs are not libraries, they are requests for features. Thus, several SRFIs specify features which cannot be provided as a library and those SRFIs are intentionally omitted here. For example, SRFIs which specify extensions to concrete syntax or extensions to the semantics of top-level programs cannot be provided as libraries and are therefore omitted from this SRFI. The following table lists omitted (finalized) SRFIs and the reason for their 19:13:00 omission. 19:13:08 from srfi 97 19:13:19 dysinger: the "command-line repl" is an artifact of the interaction between a Scheme interpreter and a command-line shell. You can use Emacs as a shell of sorts. It is possible that other shells can do likewise. Gsi has some small REPL sex available when used on an interactive terminal. I know of no shell, other than Emacs, with horizontal text layout awareness, but if one existed it could probably do something useful with an 19:13:19 interactive Scheme. 19:13:44 That's a long-winded way of saying "No," I guess. 19:14:13 Riastradh: you are right of course 19:15:53 jcowan, sorry, let me ensure that I understand the situation. Someone signalled a condition and called a handler FOO. FOO signalled a condition and called a handler BAR. BAR passes control non-locally back into FOO, for example by invoking a restart established within FOO. 19:16:43 I was actually more concerned with THROWing back into FOO 19:16:52 ISLisp doesn't have restarts 19:17:07 But otherwise correct 19:17:08 Perhaps not, but one could implement them in terms of whatever ISLisp provides in the way of non-local exits. 19:17:24 RETURN-FROM, GO, THROW. 19:17:54 Throwing back into FOO should reset the dynamic context as usual. 19:18:11 Good. 19:18:24 That this happens in the context of a condition handler should have no bearing on the choice of dynamic context. 19:19:01 I've been working on ISLisp's RAISE-CONDITION, which takes a second argument, a string. This string is retrievable from the condition, but is associated with the *event of signaling* rather than with the condition itself. 19:19:10 By the way, I'd like to hear whether there is anything confusing or unclear about the most recent entry in . 19:19:29 Since a condition can be resignaled, we must maintain a stack of these strings 19:19:38 I did not find it so 19:20:20 (define (raise-condition condition #!optional continuability-string) (let ((handlers (*condition-handlers*))) (fluid-bind ((*condition-continuability-string* continuability-string) (*condition-handlers* (cdr handlers))) ((car handlers) condition]? 19:20:28 Apologies. That was much too long for an IRC one-liner. 19:20:35 -!- synthase [n=synthase@68.63.48.10] has quit [Client Quit] 19:20:54 I would think it worthwhile to actually show (in another post) exactly how to invert control to make FOR-EACH into an external iterator 19:21:19 Well, that's easy. It just takes three nested CWCCs and a SET!! 19:21:33 If it's easy, then it's trivial to write down, eh? 19:22:08 And those of us for whom it is not obvious ("trivial theorem" = "proved theorem", per Feynman) would benefit 19:23:02 neilv [n=user@dsl092-071-029.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #scheme 19:23:21 Well, that's the right behavior, but the handler may export the condition somewhere -- and the c-string presumably has to go with it 19:23:49 A better design, probably not used for compatibility with CL, would have been to pass the c-string as an ordinary lexical argument to the handler. 19:24:22 So the c-string is statically available, but is associated with a dynamic event. 19:28:13 How that can be achieved is a mystery to me. 19:28:39 -!- bsmntbombdood [n=gavin@97-118-118-98.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:28:45 If the handler wants to record the continuability string, it must do so explicitly, since that's not information associated with the condition, if I understand correctly. 19:29:07 bsmntbombdood [n=gavin@97-118-129-213.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 19:29:21 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 19:29:48 jcowan: how widespread is 'write-byte' ? 19:32:52 jcowan, reload. 19:36:34 Riastradh: this works on MIT Scheme? 19:38:50 Riastradh: No, the only access the handler has to the c-string is to fetch it from the condition. That's why it's not clear what happens when the condition is resignaled, and since that is the only way to give the next handler control in ISLisp. 19:38:51 What? 19:39:06 duncanm, sorry, send me an email; I have to leave now. 19:39:08 ...er. 19:39:15 jcowan, that was for you. 19:39:20 (or both of you) 19:39:27 (or whatever you want -- this is too hard!) 19:39:35 *Riastradh* vanishes in a poof of confusion. 19:39:52 heh 19:41:19 *elderK* looks around 19:41:22 *elderK* dances in the mist 19:41:28 *elderK* conjures Riastradh back from the void 19:41:36 *elderK* hands Riastradh a coffee 19:41:36 :) 19:42:32 elderK: Riastradh is a tee(1) man. 19:43:32 tee(1) ? 19:44:53 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable087.62-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 19:48:27 man tee 19:48:28 http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Darwin/Reference/ManPages/man1/tee.1.html 19:48:29 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/ckkceg 19:52:53 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 19:54:00 man -a tee ? 19:54:04 Daemmerung: OpenLisp, the extant (non-free) implementation of ISLisp, stores the c-string in the condition object and mutates it every time the condition is signaled 19:54:04 Do nonhygienic macros (like chicken's define-macro) affect datum->syntax in syntax-case? 19:54:26 Don't try to use both define-macro and syntax-case in the same file. Bad things. 19:54:40 What kind of bad things? 19:54:54 define-macro is handled only by the core 19:54:57 dogs and cats, living together 19:55:11 When you install syntax-case, it preprocesses everything from then on, and doesn't know what to do with define-macro. 19:55:20 (I'm talking Chicken here) 19:55:24 jcowan: Ok, thanks 19:55:35 Chicken 4 chucks them both in favor of explicit renaming 19:56:03 So when I use syntax-case, I cannot use non-hygienic macros? 19:56:08 RIght. 19:56:27 Oh 19:56:37 or more accurately you must do them the syntax-case way 19:56:43 not with define-macro 19:56:47 aack [n=user@s559195f7.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #scheme 19:56:52 -!- jberg [n=johan@229.84-48-210.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:57:19 Few if any Schemes can handle more than one macro package, because they all want to rewrite everything that follows. 19:58:24 Yeah, thanks. Introducing new variables and then capturing them with macros seems to be a verbose way to represent DSL's internal state :( 19:59:12 You can run explicit-renaming in Chicken 3 as well, as an alternative to syntax-case 19:59:39 essentially e-r is define-macro with optional hygiene: you can look up the true name of an identifier. 20:02:44 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-18.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Bailing out"] 20:03:14 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:03:14 -!- jao [n=jao@75.84.114.170] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:03:14 -!- rotty [n=rotty@78.41.115.190] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:03:14 -!- Adrinael [i=adrinael@82.130.50.23] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:03:14 -!- tessier_ [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:03:14 -!- nasloc__ [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:03:14 -!- tonyg [n=tonyg@host226.lshift.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:03:16 Adrinael_ [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #scheme 20:03:19 rotty [n=rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has joined #scheme 20:03:36 timchen1` [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has joined #scheme 20:03:38 tessier_ [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has joined #scheme 20:03:41 tonyg [n=tonyg@host226.lshift.net] has joined #scheme 20:03:44 elias` [n=me@cs78208074.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 20:06:58 metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-127-85-87.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 20:07:01 saccade_ [n=saccade@BRAIN-AND-COG-FIVE-FIFTY-TWO.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 20:08:59 saccade Is everyone at MIT hearing impaired 20:09:03 ? 20:10:03 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-164-249.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 20:15:03 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:16:51 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:20:02 -!- seamus-android [n=user@cpc3-brig3-0-0-cust124.brig.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:21:24 -!- wrldpc [n=worldpea@69.38.252.83] has quit [] 20:22:13 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:25:58 -!- sreeram [n=sreeram@122.164.249.52] has quit [] 20:28:28 jao [n=jao@cpe-75-84-114-170.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 20:29:56 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 20:31:43 -!- amoe [n=amoe@cpc1-brig3-0-0-cust512.brig.cable.ntl.com] has left #scheme 20:32:35 -!- Adrinael_ is now known as Adrinael 20:32:49 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 20:38:42 -!- kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 20:39:03 SugarGlider [n=stevie@220.245.104.218] has joined #scheme 20:39:04 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 20:39:13 Judofyr [n=Judofyr@c349BBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has joined #scheme 20:40:38 -!- slom [n=slom@pD9EB7131.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:44:36 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:56:42 _Pb [n=Pb@75.139.140.101] has joined #scheme 20:58:00 -!- _Pb [n=Pb@75.139.140.101] has quit [Client Quit] 21:03:24 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 21:06:59 -!- jao [n=jao@cpe-75-84-114-170.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:06:59 -!- rotty [n=rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:06:59 -!- bsmntbombdood [n=gavin@97-118-129-213.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:06:59 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:06:59 -!- SugarGlider [n=stevie@220.245.104.218] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:06:59 -!- p1dzkl [i=p1dzkl@81.167.54.222.static.lyse.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:06:59 -!- laz0r [n=lazor@affenbande.org] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:06:59 -!- certainty [n=david@alpha.d-coded.de] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:06:59 -!- tabe [n=tabe@210.188.204.133] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:06:59 -!- mmt [n=mmt@TEP.MIT.EDU] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:07:25 SugarGlider [n=stevie@220.245.104.218] has joined #scheme 21:07:25 jao [n=jao@cpe-75-84-114-170.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 21:07:25 rotty [n=rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has joined #scheme 21:07:25 bsmntbombdood [n=gavin@97-118-129-213.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 21:07:25 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 21:07:25 p1dzkl [i=p1dzkl@81.167.54.222.static.lyse.net] has joined #scheme 21:07:25 laz0r [n=lazor@affenbande.org] has joined #scheme 21:07:25 certainty [n=david@alpha.d-coded.de] has joined #scheme 21:07:25 mmt [n=mmt@TEP.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 21:07:25 tabe [n=tabe@210.188.204.133] has joined #scheme 21:07:38 -!- Judofyr [n=Judofyr@c349BBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:08:41 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 21:15:22 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-224-54.dsl.look.ca] has joined #scheme 21:21:25 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:21:26 -!- davidad [n=me@NORTHWEST-THIRTYFIVE-TWO-SEVENTEEN.MIT.EDU] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:22:35 that's just a small demonstration of my power 21:22:48 -!- aack [n=user@s559195f7.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has left #scheme 21:23:29 elderK1 [n=zk@219-89-246-1.adsl.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 21:24:39 *sjamaan* is afraid 21:24:42 Very afraid 21:26:00 la la la 21:26:22 dum dum dum 21:26:51 -!- certainty [n=david@alpha.d-coded.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:27:05 certainty [n=david@alpha.d-coded.de] has joined #scheme 21:27:11 -!- zedstar [n=john@fsf/member/zedstar] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:28:45 McManiaC [n=nils@stud243048.studentenheim.uni-tuebingen.de] has joined #scheme 21:29:20 Somebody one gave me here a link to scheme code performing RGB->HSV conversion. Is that person here? :) 21:29:26 s/one/once 21:29:47 s/RGB->HSV/HSV->RGB 21:30:06 Unfortunately, cairo is not hsv-aware :( 21:30:58 -!- kilimanjaro is now known as tilibanjaro 21:35:28 jberg [n=johan@229.84-48-210.nextgentel.com] has joined #scheme 21:36:27 -!- elderK [n=zk@122-57-240-228.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:36:36 -!- tabe [n=tabe@210.188.204.133] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:39:45 -!- tilibanjaro is now known as kilimanjaro 21:45:28 Mr-Cat: BTW, I think SLIB has stuff for that 21:47:18 -!- elderK1 [n=zk@219-89-246-1.adsl.xtra.co.nz] has left #scheme 21:48:37 Calculating hue is difficult... involves some kind of abstract color space or something. 21:53:50 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:53:59 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 21:55:40 mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 22:02:48 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:03:37 jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:05:05 -!- jberg [n=johan@229.84-48-210.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:05:56 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 22:06:54 davidad [n=me@RANDOM-FOUR-SEVENTY-FOUR.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 22:12:51 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 22:20:26 -!- jao [n=jao@cpe-75-84-114-170.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:31:56 alaricsp [n=alaricsp@88-202-205-114.rdns.as8401.net] has joined #scheme 22:31:59 -!- alaricsp [n=alaricsp@88-202-205-114.rdns.as8401.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:36:00 HG` [n=wells@203-109-202-78.static.ihug.net] has joined #scheme 22:39:30 mejja: yes, we all are 22:40:36 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 22:41:43 geckosenator [n=sean@71.237.94.78] has joined #scheme 22:53:40 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-84-44-171-250.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 22:54:52 jso [n=user@151.159.200.8] has joined #scheme 22:56:39 -!- geckosenator [n=sean@71.237.94.78] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:00:00 -!- bsmntbombdood [n=gavin@97-118-129-213.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:00:38 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:01:27 bombshelter13__ [n=bombshel@209-161-239-9.dsl.look.ca] has joined #scheme 23:02:15 -!- McManiaC [n=nils@stud243048.studentenheim.uni-tuebingen.de] has quit ["leaving"] 23:02:28 bsmntbombdood [n=gavin@97-118-129-213.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 23:09:51 -!- Mr_Awesome [n=eric@pool-98-115-34-241.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["aunt jemima is the devil!"] 23:14:10 -!- SugarGlider [n=stevie@220.245.104.218] has left #scheme 23:16:35 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-224-54.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:17:07 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B05772C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:19:27 -!- choas [n=lars@p5B0DFDF4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 23:35:26 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:38:04 Mr-Cat: I'm pretty sure I lisppaste d it... try searching there. 23:39:34 Found it, http://paste.lisp.org/display/76254 23:41:35 offby1` [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 23:41:54 raikov [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has joined #scheme 23:41:59 -!- HG` [n=wells@203-109-202-78.static.ihug.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:42:27 rudybot_ [n=luser@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 23:42:50 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:45:02 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable087.62-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["!"] 23:48:31 incubot: newton's little known lemma states that returning a crazy tennis shot results in one equally and oppositely lopsided 23:48:34 that's the lopsided nature of this whole thing 23:49:09 saccade__ [n=saccade@BRAIN-AND-COG-THREE-TWELVE.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 23:50:12 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 23:55:56 -!- rudybot [n=luser@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:56:35 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@BRAIN-AND-COG-FIVE-FIFTY-TWO.MIT.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:57:06 -!- offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]