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00:12:26 <zbigniew> Mr-Cat: did you try using ;; instead of ;
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00:46:37 <duncanm> la la la
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01:47:10 <arcfide> So, what's kickin' chicken(s)?
01:48:35 <mejja> http://www.call-with-current-continuation.org/chicken-4.0.0.tar.gz
01:48:45 <arcfide> Heh.
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01:49:16 *arcfide* wishes that the fingerprint reader software in OpenBSD recognized his reader.
01:49:50 <arcfide> I've always wanted to write some driver in Scheme, submit a patch to the OS and see if they laughed, cried, scoffed, or incorporated.
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01:53:45 *rotty* has finally revived conjure
01:54:52 <rotty> arcfide: you might want to write it in BitC instead ;-)
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02:01:54 <arcfide> Heh. Time to bail. Au revoir, digipeeps.
02:02:03 *arcfide* is in some kind of weird mood.
02:02:12 <rotty> http://paste.lisp.org/display/77656 (real-life conjure sample)
02:06:43 <mejja> ... and conjure is?
02:07:48 <Riastradh> Magic!
02:07:52 <rotty> mejja: a make replacement, using a internal Scheme DSL (old/outdated project page: http://home.gna.org/conjure/)
02:08:25 <rotty> Riastradh: :-)
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02:13:09 <rotty> (new code is at http://dev.dawgmatix.com/cgi-bin/darcsweb.cgi?r=conjure;a=summary, FWIW)
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03:43:07 <zbigniew> a cgi-bin url, how quaint
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04:09:34 <synx> I wonder does chicken use the C calling convention, or does it handle the stack differently?
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04:14:19 <mejja> synx: Try this: http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/cboyer13.c
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04:16:50 <synx> I'd rather not mejja...
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05:48:14 *Daemmerung* loves old code
05:48:35 <Daemmerung> "On a 33 MHz Intel 80860, CBOYER reaches its maximum speed of 1.71 secs."
05:50:28 <Daemmerung> No, wait, it gets better.  "Since this benchmark runs so fast on modern machines, [...]"
05:50:38 *Daemmerung* sings "Thoroughly Modern Millie"
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05:58:01 <klutometis> Daemmerung: ah, julie andrews at 32
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06:05:50 <synx> Is there an extremely permissive HTML parser in scheme? When I parse websites I like to get as much useful information as I can, even if the web designer should be the first up against the wall when the revolution comes.
06:06:54 <klutometis> synx: there will be, when you rewrite tag soup in scheme
06:07:00 <synx> One website I frequent started accidentally forgetting spaces between two attribute=value pairs in one of their tags. Totalled every parser I could throw at it. I ended up resorting to a string replace.
06:07:10 <synx> oh no... not more rewriting...
06:07:29 <klutometis> synx: http://home.ccil.org/~cowan/XML/tagsoup/
06:07:31 <klutometis> do it
06:08:02 <Daemmerung> do it
06:08:34 <synx> (subprocess #f #f #f "/usr/bin/java" "java" "-jar" "tagsoup-1.2" ...)
06:09:50 <synx> I've used BeautifulSoup a lot. It really is beautiful.
06:10:45 <klutometis> synx: whoops; i meant beatiful soup
06:10:49 <klutometis> even better
06:12:38 <synx> Though <option value="24"selected="selected"> did still break even that one.
06:13:50 <Daemmerung> Blessed are the soupmakers.
06:15:50 <klutometis> what's so special about the soupmakers?
06:16:18 <synx> It has regular expressions like "markup_massage" x_x
06:17:14 <synx> Apparantly they use python's built-in HTMLParser and it handles most bad HTML just fine, with a "few tricks" to get around stuff that breaks it.
06:17:27 <Daemmerung> (Obviously this is not to be taken literally.)
06:20:31 <klutometis> incubot: it refers to any manufacturer of stock or mirepoix
06:20:35 <incubot> headplate reads "With the Compliments of John Deere, Manufacturer of Quality Farm Equipment, Moline, Illinios." No copyright or publishing date. I'll guess 1940s vintage. Very useful for my next gig, I'm sure.
06:20:52 <klutometis> Daemmerung: that sounds like you
06:21:04 *elf* looks confused at incubot.
06:21:25 <Daemmerung> Uncanny....
06:21:56 <Daemmerung> Waaaait a minute.  That not only sounds like me, that sounds like what I wrote.  PLAGIARISM!!
06:22:03 *elf* puts daemmerung back into a can.
06:22:11 <elf> much better.
06:22:13 <synx> HTMLParser being extremely regexp based, might be portable...
06:22:13 <synx> Like how it searches on #rx"[&<]" instead of going character by character.
06:22:13 *Daemmerung* listens for a running refrigerator
06:22:15 *elf* disappears again.
06:22:17 <synx> Still, maybe a state machine would be better independent of regexp ones...
06:22:31 *elf* grins at daemmerung.  heh, i dont need to know about your piercings...
06:23:03 <elf> synx: which of course breaks if theres a < within ""
06:23:05 <Daemmerung> Hee.
06:23:31 <elf> or within comments...
06:24:51 <elf> youre going to have to touch each char at least once anyway.
06:25:15 <elf> if you want to ensure that you only have to touch each char exactly once, and never backtrack, char-at-a-time is clearly superior.
06:28:07 <synx> comments start with < anyway, and < is illegal even within "" I believe.
06:28:24 <synx> And URIs are not allowed to have the & character in them >.>
06:29:37 <elf> http://squid.net/snorking?ui=34&h=foo
06:30:46 <elf> &amp; is valid within a uri.
06:30:56 <elf> according to my lynx_bookmarks file.
06:31:25 <elf> unless <a href="foo"> isnt a uri.
06:31:30 <elf> which would be pretty impressive.
06:31:34 <synx> hardest part about HTML is all the opportunities for aborting state. <a href=> is a horribly illegal tag, but a parser trying not to break is going to have to be able to abort the name=value parsing, the start tag parsing, and go straight to content.
06:32:15 <elf> isnt there a page on w3c somewhere about permissive parsing?
06:33:52 <synx> &amp; is valid, but & by itself is not. That tripped me up pretty bad once.
06:34:09 <elf> if &amp; is valid, then  & is valid.
06:34:24 <elf> at least as part of a charname token.
06:34:35 <synx> no & by itself reads as a mismatched entity tag.
06:34:43 <elf> by whom
06:34:49 <elf> its still a valid char.
06:34:55 <synx> "http://some.site/script?a=b&c=d" is a perfectly valid URI, but it must be further encoded to "http://some.site/script?a=b&amp;c=d" for the XML to validate.
06:35:09 <elf> the & char is part of that url.
06:35:19 <synx> Otherwise the W3 like to bitch about how &c=d" is an invalid entity tag xp
06:35:24 <elf> yes.
06:35:34 <elf> this is no different from having unclosed tags.
06:35:47 <elf> &amp; is equivalent, semantically, to <char>amp</char>
06:35:56 <elf> & is a start tag, ; is an end tag.
06:36:13 <synx> You can't put tags inside attribute values, I'm pretty sure.
06:36:16 <elf> the & means nothing until it has the following chars and the closing ;
06:36:20 <synx> Entities though you can.
06:36:23 <elf> until that point its absolutely meaningly.
06:36:39 <elf> er, meaningless.
06:37:01 <elf> im trying, yet again, to explain why xml isnt serialisable.
06:37:10 <elf> since you seem to understand that & isnt valid.
06:37:21 <elf> pretend & is being written as <char>
06:37:26 <elf> and ; is written as </char>
06:37:31 <elf> and its the exact same situation.
06:37:47 <synx> streamable, you mean
06:37:51 <elf> streamable, yes.
06:37:52 <elf> sorry.
06:38:29 <synx> And it is streamable, if the tag is defined the right way.
06:38:51 <elf> all start tags require end tags in xml.
06:39:18 <synx> You could define a <stream> tag that "sets the context to that of a stream tag, and on closing always validates the document."
06:39:56 <synx> In that case <stream> <atom>thing</atom><atom>thing</atom> ... </stream> could be streamed, but the <atom> tag maybe would have to be delivered er, atomically.
06:40:04 <elf> an xml document has a top-layer tag that everything is already nested in.
06:40:27 <elf> until it reaches the close tag, the document isnt an xml document.  its just a lot of meaningless test.
06:40:30 <elf> er, text.
06:40:34 <synx> So I think it depends on the grammar. Some XML documents have tags that allow for streaming and incremental updating.
06:40:54 *elf* sighs and gives up again.  im not spending my night on this again.  really.
06:41:02 <synx> Heck some of them need it. XMPP, RSS...
06:41:37 <elf> xmpp and rss each send an entire document.
06:41:42 <synx> If there is any situation in which a close tag would invalidate the document, then that tag can't be streamed, but otherwise it's perfectly fine.
06:41:47 <elf> an entire, wellformed document.
06:42:07 <synx> XMPP does not. RSS does not have to send an entire document.
06:42:16 <elf> it does, though.  look at the schema.
06:42:21 <synx> Technically it could leave the connection open and send you new feed entries as they are created.
06:42:28 <elf> that doesnt change what i just said.
06:42:47 <elf> the connection being open does not have anything to do with the data being sent.
06:42:57 <synx> Unless certain people forbid it that is.
06:44:13 <klutometis> quick question: the empty list is not a list whose car and cons are null pointers, but something sui generis; i.e. orthogonal to the other disjoint types?
06:44:37 <elf> klutometis: the empty list is not a pair.
06:44:42 <elf> (pair? '()) -> #f
06:44:46 <elf> (list? '()) -> #t
06:45:11 <klutometis> Riastradh gets upset, though, when people refer to it as an "atom"
06:45:19 <elf> atom isnt well defined. :)
06:45:42 <mbishop_> well I'm pretty sure atom is (usually) defined as anything that isn't a list
06:45:53 <mbishop_> so the empty list isn't an atom
06:46:05 <klutometis> so '() has a negative definition, then: it is not boolean, nor pair, nor symbol, nor number, nor char, nor string, nor vector, nor port, nor procedure?
06:46:08 <elf> if you look at 6.3.2 in r5rs, it should give you what you want to know.
06:46:26 <elf> the empty list is a special object of its own type (it is not a pair); it has no elements and its length is zero.
06:46:38 <synx> http://xmpp.org/rfcs/rfc3920.html#streams gives a good example of just such a <stream> tag, whose contents must not be deferred until the tag closes.
06:46:45 <elf> note: the above definitions imply that all lists have finite length and are terminated by the empty list.
06:46:51 <synx> At any point, as long as the <message> and <iq> and such tags are all completely sent, a </stream> will always validate the document.
06:47:12 <elf> (from r5rs under 'pairs and lists', part 6.)
06:47:26 <klutometis> elf: damn them for making it look like an empty pair, then; what a hideous mnemonic
06:47:34 <elf> empty pair has no meaning.
06:47:49 <elf> incubot: eval (cons '() '())
06:47:49 <incubot> (())
06:47:55 <klutometis> it may be an oxymoron; which is different from having no meaning
06:47:56 <elf> incubot: eval (cons '())
06:47:56 <incubot> Error: bad argument count - received 1 but expected 2: #<procedure (cons x85 y86)>
06:48:00 <elf> incubot: eval (cons)
06:48:00 <incubot> Error: bad argument count - received 0 but expected 2: #<procedure (cons x85 y86)>
06:48:29 <elf> no, its meaningless.  pair is defined as two items.  what is a pair with no items?
06:48:32 <elf> its not a pair.
06:48:36 <klutometis> anyway: you can't go wrong, then, implementing it as a singleton
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06:48:46 <elf> m?
06:48:48 <elf> singleton?
06:49:05 <elf> in the oo sense?
06:49:37 <klutometis> is singleton particular to oo? in the sui generis sense: some unique object, uncopied
06:49:40 <klutometis> like python's None
06:49:45 <elf> m.
06:49:50 <elf> its probably better to copy it.
06:50:11 <klutometis> but if it's sui generis, i can do pointer equivalence quickly
06:50:12 <elf> just some special type with no objects associated.
06:50:22 <elf> yes, but you cant do freeing quickly, nor typechecking.
06:50:27 <klutometis> hmm
06:50:34 <elf> gc the end of a list.
06:50:50 <klutometis> good point
06:51:00 <elf> you can do *foo == *bar almost as fast as foo == bar
06:51:49 <elf> possibly faster, cause its defined once in your header... #define NULLLIST 0x00000011 (for example)
06:51:54 <elf> *foo == NULLLIST
06:52:00 <elf> one pointer deref.
06:52:37 <klutometis> ah, but that's what i'm talking about: defining it as some unique value
06:52:49 <elf> unique value != unique location
06:52:50 <klutometis> you wouldn't free NULLLIST in that case, either
06:52:51 <klutometis> hmm
06:53:02 <elf> nulllist isnt a location, its a value.
06:54:05 <elf> 1 = <blah> should fail with a nasty message about lvalues and rvalues.
06:54:17 <elf> or assigning to constants.
06:54:21 <klutometis> right; so i'll have to check for some unfreeable thing, anyway
06:54:28 <elf> no, just check a value.
06:54:33 <elf> dont worry about the locations.
06:54:35 <klutometis> ok; makes sense
06:55:15 <elf> dont worry about optimisation until you have something working: part 1 in a series of 10 entitled 'why i want to break peoples heads open'
06:55:31 *elf* is cheery.
06:55:39 *elf* goes back to the bugs daemon.
06:57:02 <elf> i need to make this work before worrying about nice features like sequence counting, login checks, etc.
06:57:21 <klutometis> elf: i had defined it to be NULL originally; but there's some ambiguity between NULL and pair(NULL, NULL)
06:57:34 <elf> there shouldnt be ambiguity there...
06:57:39 <elf> how does it know its a pair?
06:58:35 <elf> (theres a lot of ambiguity if you go around referring to anything as NULL besides null, especially if you want any kind of system interface.)
06:59:05 <klutometis> indeed; i have to do checks in nullp() to see whether i'm dealing with NULL or pair(NULL, NULL)
06:59:08 <klutometis> it's a pain in the ass
06:59:15 <elf> how are you defining a pair?
06:59:29 <elf> shouldnt it get an object and see some kind of header saying that its a pair?
06:59:34 <klutometis> pair is a struct with two fields essentially: car and cdr
06:59:54 <elf> with no other header?
07:00:08 <elf> how can you ever check if something is a pair based only on reference, then?
07:00:10 <klutometis> i'm not doing it in c, so i have classes
07:00:14 <elf> ah.
07:00:18 <elf> c++ ?
07:00:27 <klutometis> nope; i hesitate to say
07:00:31 <elf> java ?
07:00:49 <klutometis> nope, nope; i'll reveal everything when i have a 0.1
07:01:01 <hadronzoo> elf: as per your previous XML streaming discussion, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_API_for_XML
07:01:39 <klutometis> it's hideous beyond words; an under-wordly, nibelungen-like undertaking this is
07:02:22 <klutometis> Daemmerung: there's nibelungen afoot
07:03:10 <elf> klutometis: http://secunia.com/advisories/34451/ (if it is java).  nothing like smugness.
07:03:55 <klutometis> elf: i wouldn't do anything for fun in java when serious thinks like sisc already exist
07:04:11 <elf> smalltalk? logo?
07:04:17 <elf> scheme in logo would be pretty funny.
07:04:25 <klutometis> hey, that's a great idea, actually
07:04:36 <elf> make the turtle draw a lambda!
07:04:49 <klutometis> wasn't logo a dialect of lisp already, though?
07:04:59 <elf> no.
07:05:16 <elf> its another instruction language that is actually quite powerful although it seems not to be.
07:05:24 <klutometis> "The Logo Programming Language, a dialect of Lisp, was designed as a tool for learning."
07:05:26 <elf> (at least, im pretty sure its not a lisp derivative.
07:05:28 <klutometis> http://el.media.mit.edu/Logo-foundation/logo/index.html
07:05:33 <elf> i thought it was a forth derivative.)
07:05:36 <elf> oke.  im wrong :)
07:05:38 <klutometis> heh
07:05:45 <elf> (last time i used logo was 20+ years ago :) )
07:06:08 <klutometis> i never would have guessed myself; don't see the lisp in logo
07:07:37 <geckosen1tor> what is it called when you define the machine to the compiler?
07:08:59 <elf> meh?
07:10:01 <geckosen1tor> I'm going to write a scheme program to generate peephole optimizations for gcc
07:10:20 <elf> (from the intermediate representation in gcc?)
07:10:20 <geckosen1tor> but I do it by describing each instruction to the program then the program figures out all the optimizations
07:10:40 <geckosen1tor> just pure assembly instructions
07:10:47 <elf> oh, from the asm output.  right.
07:10:52 <geckosen1tor> the more I describe to it, the more peephole optimizations it can generate
07:11:09 <geckosen1tor> then you use feedback with gcc to delete the peephole optimizations that are never used with lots of code compiled
07:11:19 <geckosen1tor> so the compiler isn't as slow
07:13:39 <elf> oke, so whats the problem?
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07:14:50 <elf> im pretty sure gcc doesnt tag the .S file with any processor info.  youd have to pass that back into your program.
07:15:04 <elf> (that being the processor info)
07:16:53 <hadronzoo> geckosen1tor: have you seen this? http://theory.stanford.edu/~sbansal/pubs/asplos06.pdf
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07:23:52 <geckosen1tor> yeah
07:24:22 <geckosen1tor> it's x86 specific
07:24:30 <geckosen1tor> and I coudln't get their code to compile
07:28:42 <geckosen1tor> if you applied peepholes to an entire computer program
07:28:53 <geckosen1tor> it would result in optimal code
07:29:04 <geckosen1tor> but it's too muc hprocessing power
07:29:26 <geckosen1tor> you can "brute force" optimal code
07:29:29 <hadronzoo> yes, it's definitely exhaustive
07:29:48 <geckosen1tor> well until they make a new cpu
07:29:49 <geckosen1tor> heh
07:29:59 <geckosen1tor> so maybe not
07:30:12 <hadronzoo> the fingerprint table is useful, though
07:30:21 <geckosen1tor> yeah
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12:05:25 <offby1> Geckos.  Hadrons.  What next?!
12:05:28 <offby1> rudybot: uptime
12:05:29 <rudybot> *offby1: I've been up for six days, nineteen hours; this tcp/ip connection has been up for six days, five hours
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13:36:53 <McManiaC> hey
13:37:29 <McManiaC> we've been learning scheme at university, can somebody tell me the difference between (list 1 2 3) and (1 2 3) / '(1 2 3) ?
13:37:43 <McManiaC> we always wrote lists as (list ...)
13:39:22 <sjamaan> (1 2 3) is an application of the procedure 1 to arguments 2 and 3
13:39:27 <sjamaan> You probably don't want that ;)
13:39:31 <McManiaC> ok
13:39:43 <McManiaC> yeah thats been confusing to me
13:39:45 <McManiaC> :D
13:39:58 <sjamaan> The ' form is a quotation - it quotes the list after it to prevent it from evaluating it as (1 2 3)
13:40:26 <sjamaan> This results in a list with three items: 1, 2 and 3
13:40:34 <McManiaC> can u see '(..) as a shortform for (list ..) ?
13:40:43 <sjamaan> Not exactly
13:40:52 <sjamaan> (list 1 2 3) creates a fresh new list everytime
13:41:01 <sjamaan> '(1 2 3) is allowed to return the same list everytime
13:41:29 <McManiaC> everytime the function is called?
13:41:33 <sjamaan> yes
13:41:39 <McManiaC> ok
13:42:24 <sjamaan> In many cases the difference doesn't matter
13:43:14 <McManiaC> what if i had a "random" function? would a '(..) return the same "random" value everytime?
13:43:31 <sjamaan> huh?
13:43:42 <McManiaC> nevermind
13:43:43 <McManiaC> :D
13:43:48 <sjamaan> ok :)
13:44:04 <McManiaC> and for what are "dotted lists"?
13:44:08 <McManiaC> like (1 2 . 3) ?
13:44:29 <sjamaan> For staying the hell away from unless you know what you're doing, generally :)
13:44:39 <McManiaC> lol
13:44:40 <McManiaC> ok :)
13:45:52 <sjamaan> Dotted lists of two items ("cons pairs" or just "pairs") are pretty common, though
13:46:10 <sjamaan> That's just two things stuck together
13:46:20 <McManiaC> like a tuple?
13:46:23 <sjamaan> yeah
13:46:32 <sjamaan> Although vectors are more like tuples, I think
13:46:36 <McManiaC> ok
13:46:50 <sjamaan> pairs are often used for key/value pairs
13:46:55 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit []
13:46:58 <sjamaan> For example in alists
13:47:20 <McManiaC> yup
13:47:55 <sjamaan> rudybot: eval (alist-ref 'a '((a . b) (c . d)))
13:47:56 <rudybot> sjamaan: your sandbox is ready
13:47:56 <rudybot> sjamaan: error: reference to undefined identifier: alist-ref
13:48:10 <sjamaan> meh
13:48:13 <McManiaC> hehe
13:48:27 <sjamaan> rudybot: eval (use data-structures)
13:48:28 <rudybot> sjamaan: error: reference to undefined identifier: use
13:48:38 *sjamaan* thinks
13:49:05 <sjamaan> incubot: eval (alist-ref 'a '((a . b) (c . d)))
13:49:05 <incubot> b
13:49:08 <sjamaan> Right
13:49:17 <sjamaan> incubot is the Chicken bot, rudybot is the PLT bot
13:49:22 *offby1* nods gravely 
13:49:36 <sjamaan> (error "too many bots")
13:49:38 <metasyntax> or (cdr (assoc ...))
13:49:38 <rudybot> And don't you forget it
13:49:44 <sjamaan> heh
13:50:25 <McManiaC> chicken? plt?
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13:51:18 <metasyntax> Different implementations; PLT is pretty famous as driving DrScheme.
13:51:38 <metasyntax> (famous among students that is; at least that's where I was taught)
13:52:15 <McManiaC> yep, weve been using drscheme too
13:53:02 <sjamaan> McManiaC: There are many implementations of Scheme. Chicken is just the one I'm most familiar with
13:53:08 <metasyntax> DrScheme = the IDE, MzScheme = the compiler, PLT = the whole system?
13:53:24 <witout> hi.. i was using function "regexp-match?" in plt 4.x .. when i tried to run under 3.52, regexp-match? is undefined. after reading docs, i found a "regexp-match" function. my question is, can "regexp-match" function be used where "regexp-match?" function is used?
13:53:27 <sjamaan> I think PLT is the name of the project/group
13:55:31 <metasyntax> Ah, yeah "project" sounds like a good way to put it.
13:57:32 <metasyntax> witout: they certainly seem similar but the best advice is to try it and see
13:58:06 *metasyntax* doesn't use PLT Scheme much
13:58:29 <witout> well.. the first one is a boolean.. i guess regexp-match can return #f for no match since the docs say that
13:59:18 <witout> tests yield good result so far..
13:59:32 <metasyntax> non-#f is truth so they may function similarly as predicates
14:06:36 <sladegen> (define regexp-match? regexp-match)
14:07:41 <offby1> witout: why not just read the docs for each and see how they differ?
14:08:41 <sladegen> rtfm is for bofhs.
14:09:16 <McManiaC> what is #(1 2 3) ?
14:09:27 <offby1> a vector
14:09:35 <offby1> rudybot: eval (vector? #(1 2 3))
14:09:36 <rudybot> *offby1: your scheme sandbox is ready
14:09:36 <rudybot> *offby1: ; Value: #t
14:10:00 <McManiaC> ok
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14:10:53 <sladegen> minion: what is R5RS?
14:10:54 <minion> what would a bot like me know about r5rs ?
14:11:10 <sladegen> minion: nothing apparantly.
14:11:11 <minion> you speak nonsense
14:11:22 <sladegen> minion: you hush!
14:11:22 <minion> what's up?
14:11:32 <offby1> incubot: how dumb is minion?
14:11:35 <incubot> they sound so dumb though
14:11:53 <sladegen> incubot: i'm dumber!
14:11:56 <incubot> Sometimes I feel like I'm getting dumber every day.
14:12:01 <offby1> incubot: minion
14:12:04 <incubot> /join #emacs
14:12:07 <offby1> ha
14:12:27 <offby1> hard to believe the word "minion" doesn't appear -anywhere- in incubot's database, but ... the evidence is before you
14:13:26 <sladegen> incubot: have you been lurking in other channels, byatch?
14:13:29 <incubot> ...well, I can't really use python anymore. Been banned from the support channels for half a year now.
14:13:58 <sladegen> incubot: serves you well.
14:14:00 <incubot> composable continuation serves exactly this purpose: we select the walker's loop by delimiting it on entrance with RESET and using SHIFT to go back to the client; between this is the walker, which is represented in a composable continuation.
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14:14:53 <sladegen> incubot: changing topic won't help. repent!
14:14:56 <incubot> Try changing 'handled to (dispay "handled").
14:16:36 annodomini [n=lambda@130.189.179.215] has joined #scheme
14:18:28 <offby1> ok, programming challenge: merely by sending message to incubot and observing its responses, deduce either its entire database, or else just the list of words that it knows how to respond to.  You have ten minutes.  Try not to get kicked for flooding.
14:19:42 <sladegen> incubot: ,spill beans
14:19:45 <incubot> They just learn it, spill out learned stuff, and forget a month later.
14:21:40 <McManiaC> anyone using vim for scheme files?
14:22:28 <offby1> Paul Graham
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14:27:02 <sjamaan> McManiaC: elf uses vi
14:27:24 <sjamaan> nvi, to be precise
14:29:46 <McManiaC> the syntax file doesnt like my -> arrows :S
14:30:09 <McManiaC> or dont u use -> in "real" scheme? ^^
14:31:17 <sjamaan> identifiers starting with - are "special"
14:31:42 <McManiaC> (: curry ((%a %b -> %c) -> (%a -> (%b -> %c))))
14:31:44 <sjamaan> But -> should be allowed
14:31:45 <McManiaC> for example
14:34:00 <sjamaan> Maybe the syntax regex is bad
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15:57:04 <elderK> Hey guys?
15:57:05 <elderK> :)
15:57:21 <elderK> I've been investigating the Lisp-likes lately and, have come upon Scheme which, seems to jive with me a little better than CL.
15:57:34 <elderK> So, I have come here wondering which implementation is perhaps the best to use.
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15:57:39 <elderK> Given, that I will likely be interfacing to C code.
15:57:54 <elderK> Say, things like OpenGL, SDL or even my own libraries.
15:58:53 <Elly> I think most people use PLT scheme
16:00:02 <elderK> Heya Elly, thank you for answerin gmy question.
16:00:25 <elderK> Any chance there is a more accessible introduction to PLT's FFI?
16:00:36 <elderK> I find the official pages to be a little hard to follow
16:01:12 <arcfide> elderK: Hah! Don't listen to Elly, he's trying to make you follow "the crowd."
16:01:26 <arcfide> elderK: Life with MIT Scheme is . . . more fun. :-)
16:01:32 Slom [n=a@pD9EB4811.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme
16:01:47 <elderK> :) arcfide, I haven't seen much on MIT/GNU Scheme's FFI
16:01:47 <elderK> :(
16:01:51 <arcfide> elderK: Or, be like me, and use (Petite) Chez. Or like...them Chicken-folk.
16:02:07 <arcfide> elderK: It doesn't have one in the same sense that others do, which is why I said it would be much more fun. ;-)
16:02:47 <arcfide> elderK: Ones with FFIs that I hear a "okay" by various people, myself included, are: Chicken, Scheme48, Chez, PLT, Larceny, Ikarus, and I think Gambit also has one.
16:04:37 <arcfide> elderK: I think PLT, Chez, Ikarus, and Larceny deal with "dynamic" FFIs, and I find Chez's to be very easy, others likewise for others; Chicken and Gambit are Scheme->C compilers, which have some level of static FFI, IIRC. I don't know which Scheme48's is, but I would guess kinda dynamic.
16:04:59 <elderK> I don't quite get the Scheme->C thing?
16:05:01 jah_ [n=jah@46.56.76-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #scheme
16:05:03 <elderK> They produce .c code?
16:05:17 <arcfide> I know Chicken and PLT have a pretty wide set of existing libraries packaged for them, so you can see their FFI code in action.
16:05:28 -!- jah_ is now known as jah
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16:05:39 <arcfide> elderK: They use C and an intermediate representation for compiling to the end result.
16:05:54 Mr-Cat [n=Miranda@195.26.167.6] has joined #scheme
16:06:04 <arcfide> They usually can produce standard executables, but they will use your C compiler to get there.
16:06:39 <arcfide> There are some samples of the FFI for Larceny and Chez, as well, in their distros, I think. Ikarus is still pretty new, so I don't know how much it has.
16:07:53 <ecraven> does any scheme take the erlang approach to foreign code?
16:09:10 <arcfide> ecraven: What is the erlang approach?
16:10:25 <leppie> yawn
16:10:40 <ecraven> as i understand it, you only communicate via pipes with external processes, so problems in an external library can never crash the erlang process
16:12:05 <Mr-Cat> zbigniew: Thanks, ;; is indented as a regular sexp.
16:13:16 <arcfide> ecraven: Most Schemes have a means of doing this, but they don't call it an FFI. They call it process Piping.
16:13:24 <elderK> :) I wonder how hard it would be to write a basic scheme interpreter.
16:13:27 <elderK> that sounds like it could be quite fun :D
16:13:44 <arcfide> ecraven: The OpenBSD version of the Myro in Scheme libraries work this way, by using rfcomm_sppd.
16:14:01 <Mr-Cat> elderK: A _basic_ is a matter of a couple of evenings...
16:14:06 <arcfide> elderK: go through SICP and you'll be writing a little interpreter in no time. ;-)
16:14:08 <ecraven> it seems like a very clean approach, though possibly slow
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16:14:24 <arcfide> ecraven: It has its drawbacks.
16:15:02 <Mr-Cat> I think, `Essentials of Programming Languages' is a good book to start with, if you want to implement an interpreter.
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16:16:01 <arcfide> ecraven: However, I intend to remove the subprocess communication from MiS and start using a better interface.
16:16:18 <ecraven> what is Myro in Scheme?
16:16:25 <elderK> One issu eI have with Scheme FFI, is... how do I ... convert the types and stuff?
16:16:27 <leppie> in windows I think you simply create a Named Pipe file
16:16:38 <ecraven> robots?
16:16:41 -!- jah [n=jah@46.56.76-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
16:17:31 <leppie> myro, isnt that some LEGO thing?
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16:18:16 <arcfide> ecraven: It's a Scheme rewrite of the Python API for Scribbler/Fluke robots.
16:18:29 <Mr-Cat> elderK: that's implementation-specific, but usually scheme implementation does it for you
16:18:32 <arcfide> elderK: What do you mean, "convert types and stuff?"
16:18:45 <arcfide> leppie: It's not LEGO, but it's in the same vein of making easy to program robots.
16:19:56 <ecraven> arcfide: what does it build upon (the scheme)
16:20:08 <elderK> It'd be interesting to make a System's Lisp.
16:20:09 <elderK> and like,
16:20:10 <elderK> say,
16:20:16 <elderK> We hav ea uint64_t in C world.
16:20:20 <arcfide> ecraven: What do you mean build upon?
16:20:33 <elderK> and we bind some symbol to an integer in Scheme.
16:20:40 <elderK> and we pass that symbol to the C function.
16:20:42 <ecraven> arcfide: does it build on any existing scheme, or is it all new?
16:20:47 <elderK> wouldn't it have to be converted from Scheme Integer to C Integer?
16:20:50 <elderK> and then back again?
16:21:04 <arcfide> elderK: I don't know what exactly you are trying to do.
16:21:14 <arcfide> FFIs interface common values between C and Scheme, usually.
16:22:36 <elderK> Ah,  Isee.
16:22:37 <elderK> :)
16:22:40 <arcfide> So, if we were to, say, define a SLEEP function in Scheme that needed to use the OS's sleep() function, we might do something like (define sleep (foreign-procedure "sleep" (unsigned-32) unsigned-32)).
16:22:47 <Mr-Cat> elderK: `wouldn't it have to be converted from Scheme Integer to C Integer?' - that's implementation-specific, but note, taht scheme has arbitrary-size integers, so the general answer is `conversion is needed'.
16:23:10 <elderK> aye, and thats where I get a little list, Mr-Cat :)
16:23:15 <elderK> How would I perform those conversions myself?
16:23:21 <arcfide> ecraven: It's just a library, it is written in Scheme, it doesn't matter what Scheme on which you run it, but it is written for Chez Scheme.
16:24:16 <arcfide> ecraven: It's not like I wrote a whole new scheme to run on a robot. It's just an API for communicating with a robot, using Scheme.
16:24:23 <arcfide> Anyways, time for me to eat.
16:24:30 <Mr-Cat> elderK: You should dig through your implementation's documentation. FFI is implementation-specific.
16:24:37 <elderK> Chez' FFI seems pretty nice.
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16:24:54 <elderK> :) Mr-Cat, that's part of the problem - I'm still looking at what implementation I should us e:)
16:25:17 <Mr-Cat> elderK: But usually you won't convert data types by hand
16:27:08 <Mr-Cat> elderK: Or you'll perform only some basic operations (i.e. for arrays of strings in chicken).
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16:28:59 <Mr-Cat> elderK: Do you look for an implementation, that has some specific features, needed for your task? Or just an implementation with mature FFI support?
16:29:32 <Mr-Cat> s/Do you look/Are you looking for/
16:30:06 <elderK> :) Just a good startin gplace, I guess.
16:31:20 <Mr-Cat> elderK: Well, then chicken will be a good choice, I think. PLT is more feature-rich, but I think it's both advantage and disadvantage at the same time.
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16:32:00 <mot___> can anybody tell me what are some fundamental differences between ML and scheme?
16:33:19 <Mr-Cat> mot__: ML is statically typed (and with type inference), scheme is dynamically typed. That's all, IMHO.
16:33:27 <ecraven> macros?
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16:33:32 <mot___> anything else?
16:33:43 <mot___> hate to say it, but this is a homework question and google gives me nothing.
16:34:19 <Riastradh> That's a pretty lousy homework question.
16:34:20 <Mr-Cat> escraven: iirc ML has them also
16:34:22 <Riastradh> Why don't you ask your professor for help?
16:34:32 <mot___> yea, it was almost as good as the question "What are the two forms of DEFINE?"
16:34:33 <Riastradh> No, it doesn't, Mr-Cat.
16:34:45 <Riastradh> mot___, oh, that one's easy -- top-level and internal!
16:34:48 <mot___> Riastradh, my professor is in dubai at the moment.
16:35:03 <mot___> Riastradh, yea, but no context as given.
16:35:13 <ecraven> what about (define foo (lambda ...)) vs. (define (foo ..) ...)
16:35:14 <Riastradh> When is your problem set due?  In twenty-five minutes?  Next week?
16:35:36 <mot___> next tues, but he's in dubai until next friday
16:35:50 <mot___> he's ancient and doesn't check email, and i can't get a hold of the TA
16:36:02 <Riastradh> So why take the class?
16:36:12 <mot___> ? because i'm trying to graduate in 4 weeks and have no choice.
16:36:19 *Riastradh* blinks.
16:36:24 <Mr-Cat> Riastradh: MacroML, MetaML?
16:36:30 <mot___> heh.
16:36:40 <mot___> are you unfamiliar with the university system in the US?
16:36:53 <Riastradh> Mr-Cat, ah, you mean `ML' as in `any derivative of the original ML language', not `SML'.
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16:37:03 <mot___> i go to one of the largest research institutions in the country. some of the profs' priorities don't always necessary align with those of their students.....
16:37:32 <Mr-Cat> Riastradh: Yes, the whole ML family.
16:37:48 <Riastradh> It sounds like a pretty lousy class and a pretty lousy school to me if it requires this class for you to graduate.
16:38:03 <mot___> Riastradh, nah, it's a good class, just a shitty professor.
16:38:16 <mot___> it's just general abstract programming languages concepts
16:38:20 <Mr-Cat> mot___: How detailed should the answer be?
16:38:22 <mot___> it's pretty much a b/s course
16:38:32 <mot___> Mr-Cat, i basically just need to list three differences between the two?
16:38:50 <mot___> so far i've got that ML is statically typed whereas scheme is dynamic.
16:38:54 <ecraven> syntax, macros, static vs. dynamic typing
16:38:58 <mot___> hmm
16:39:00 <mot___> mkay
16:39:11 <ecraven> first two are negotiable :)
16:39:21 <mot___> Riastradh, in the US, the biggest the school, the bigger their grant, the more research they do, and the harder it is to find profs who want to teach instead of just do research.
16:39:56 <Riastradh> (Why do you think that I'm unfamiliar with `the university system' in the US?)
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16:40:46 <mot___> Because a good majority of schools in the US are like this; this is a pretty popular complaint of most college students in the US at most schools.
16:41:16 <mot___> there's always that professor or two that just don't give a crap about teaching and you end up dropping over a grand on a class and 200 bucks on a book to essentially end up teaching yourself the course.
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16:41:39 <ecraven> you pay for each class
16:41:40 <ecraven> ?
16:41:42 <Riastradh> So whose choice was it to take this class?
16:41:57 <Riastradh> ecraven, in the US, students pay lots of money to attend schools.
16:42:12 <ecraven> but you pay for the semester / trimester, not per course, right?
16:42:24 <Riastradh> It may sound strange to a European, but it usually costs anywhere between $30,000 to $50,000 per year to attend college here.
16:42:42 <mot___> ecraven, well you pay by quarter or semester (here it's semester)
16:42:47 <mot___> BUT
16:42:54 <mot___> you still pay per credit hour, so yes to pay per course.
16:43:15 <mot___> if you work out the number of credit hours you're taking by your grade level
16:43:26 <mot___> it's a little over $1k per class, give or take
16:44:11 <Mr-Cat> Heh, in my university it's about $2000-$3000 per year...
16:44:17 <ecraven> i could never afford that :O though it would raise motivation for lazy students
16:44:17 <mot___> Riastradh, it was my "choice" to take this class in that i had to have another 400-level elective to graduate (one from my major) and this is the only one that fit into my question
16:44:27 <Riastradh> That's because you probably live in a civilized area of the world, Mr-Cat.
16:44:30 <mot___> ecraven, not really, it actually just makes more people apt to not want to go to college at all
16:44:54 <mot___> and it makes people more willing to drop out the first time they do poorly for a semester and realize they just wasted 5000$ or more.
16:45:04 <Mr-Cat> Riastradh: Unfortunately, not :P
16:45:10 <mot___> needless to say, the univerrsity system in the US is 9-ways of f'ed up.
16:45:16 <mot___> university*
16:45:31 <ecraven> mot___: don't worry, we're steadily going the same way :)
16:46:36 <mot___> it does worry me.
16:46:42 <mot___> my generation is inheriting a lot of bullshit. =\
16:47:14 <mot___> i know people graduating with degrees in engineering and hard sciences that can't find jobs.
16:47:19 <mot___> 20 grand, 30 grand in debt.
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16:49:57 <Mr-Cat> mot___: Well, here many young people (in IT) go scribbling c# code instead of getting degrees :P
16:50:36 <mot___> Mr-Cat, here, we have a lot of people WITH degrees that can go scribbling c# code, who is an employer going to pick?
16:50:44 <mot___> the guy with the degree that can code, or the guy without the degree than can code?
16:51:01 <mot___> now, in the US, everybody's expected to go get their master's degrees after they get their bachelor's
16:51:07 <mot___> the bar is continuously being raised.
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16:55:36 <ecraven> duncanm: how're things? still scheming?
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16:57:05 <duncanm> ecraven: yes!
16:57:18 <duncanm> ecraven: (actually, i've been spending more time clojuring because of work lately)
17:00:39 <elderK> Hey guys, about variables in Scheme - can I ever say "I awnt this variable to ONLY be a 32bit integer?"
17:00:43 <elderK> and if so, how woul dI go about doing that?
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17:03:16 <ecraven> duncanm: i might come to NY and boston this summer for a week or two
17:03:29 <duncanm> ecraven: oh, if you're in the area, let me know and we'll hang out!
17:04:05 <duncanm> elderK: one way to do that would be to put the variable in another scope, and expose getters and setters
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17:07:09 <ecraven> duncanm: will do :)
17:07:45 <arcfide> elderK: you do realize that Scheme is dynamically typed, right?
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17:09:07 <arcfide> Well, see you all later.
17:09:16 <arcfide> elderK: And yes, I do like Chez's FFI.
17:09:36 <arcfide> elderK: But you'd have to be willing to pay for it. :-)
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17:17:45 <elderK> duncanm: How do you mean? :)
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17:31:00 <ecraven> elderK: you write a method MY-VAR and SET-MY-VAR! that make sure you only pass integer values
17:31:25 <duncanm> heh
17:31:29 <duncanm> i actually wrote it out ;-)
17:32:08 <ecraven> every time this comes up, i wish there were a DEFINE* that lets you define multiple bindings
17:32:44 <duncanm> http://paste.lisp.org/display/77686
17:32:52 <duncanm> ecraven: there's a DEFINE* SRFI for optional arguments
17:33:07 <ecraven> then let's name it MULTI-DEFINE
17:33:25 <ecraven> are you still working on edwin48?
17:33:56 <duncanm> here and there
17:34:02 <duncanm> it's harder now that i'm working fulltime
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17:35:16 <elderK> Thanks for that duncan
17:35:29 <elderK> :) And hey, is there any IDE that uses the same nice highlighting like lisp paste?
17:35:31 <elderK> It's awefully handy.
17:35:37 <duncanm> elderK: that uses the same 'technique' that many JavaScript systems use
17:35:40 <duncanm> elderK: emacs?
17:35:43 <ecraven> mit-scheme's Edwin or emacs
17:35:53 <duncanm> ecraven: no highlighting in edwin, right? ;-)
17:36:05 <ecraven> good point, not yet :)
17:36:08 <ecraven> i planned on doing that some day
17:36:10 <duncanm> haha
17:36:14 <elderK> :P Could just use Vi.
17:36:27 <ecraven> but then i got sidetracked into rewriting edwin, and then into rewriting mit-scheme..
17:36:44 <elderK> I wonder if they have any scheme compilers written in scheme.
17:36:45 <elderK> :P
17:36:46 <duncanm> ecraven: hey! who's working on edwin again (points to self...)
17:36:52 <duncanm> elderK: there are quite a few
17:39:05 <elderK> really?
17:39:11 <elderK> Wouldn't they need to bootstrap though in the first place?
17:39:28 <elderK> like, get some scheme interpreter to run the scheme compiler so that it could build itself... and write out the binary?
17:39:46 <mejja> So?
17:39:58 <ecraven> fortunately there are already lots of scheme interpreters and compilers out there
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17:46:09 <Riastradh> elderK, most Scheme compilers are written in Scheme.
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17:47:17 <duncanm> Riastradh: hey
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17:48:24 <Riastradh> Hi.
17:48:25 <mib_spqfmdpi> Hi, in "Pretty Big" is there a predefined predicate for greater than or equal to?
17:48:32 <Riastradh> >=
17:48:53 <mib_spqfmdpi> thanks, wasn't sure.  I figured I'd go to the pros just to check :)
17:49:04 <duncanm> heh
17:49:17 <mib_spqfmdpi> (and I know i could make it myself, but that's the beauty of it :))
17:50:42 <duncanm> just type '>=' at the REPL, if it's there, it'll tell you, if not, it'll complain
17:50:45 <duncanm> what could be easier?
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17:51:27 <mib_spqfmdpi> true true, I didn't really think of that.
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17:55:24 <sladegen> incubot: Clouds of crowds sourcing computers?
17:55:26 <incubot> Say I want to start the same command on 5 different computers...
17:56:07 <sladegen> incubot: you twitter your fam...
17:56:10 <incubot> hey, do you twitter?
17:56:41 <proq> incubot: I'm going to move you to the cloud
17:56:44 <incubot> levi_home: http://cloud.merseine.nu:6969/torrents/Wes+Brown+-+MOSREF+Using+Cryptography+and+Injectable+Virtual+Machines+in+Security.avi.torrent?D9EA652AB9D221D45931E849EE0B5DBB9108A2B3
17:56:44 <sladegen> incubot: no, i don't. irc for life!
17:56:46 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/c8pada
17:56:47 <incubot> some claim that the nowaday's AI's have an intelligence of an insect, but they learn so much faster than we do, so It probably won't take very long... not as long as it took for humans to develop from some weird life form, living in liquid environment into homo sapiens...
17:57:11 <sladegen> incubot: that was indecent.
17:57:17 <incubot> only thing that really annoys me about "bad" languages is when I have to use a lot of reuse-by-copy-and-paste.
17:59:03 <mejja> minion: advice for incubot
17:59:19 <minion> incubot: #11918: Well, then get one that *does* do auto-indent.  You can't do good work with bad tools.
17:59:22 <incubot> I wonder if putting it in a module with some type declarations and auto-integrate set would help
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18:57:17 <klutometis> incubot: with some men, you never hear about wife nor bairn; with others, though, every trivial prompt spurreth on to credo
18:57:20 <incubot> a wee bairn
18:59:38 <proq> minion: chant
18:59:38 <minion> MORE DETAIL
19:00:30 <mib_spqfmdpi> incubot: What are you?
19:00:35 <incubot> Here's an example of what I envisioned for a syntactic-closures-based pattern matching facility:
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19:01:23 -!- sreeram_ is now known as sreeram
19:01:24 <mib_spqfmdpi> is incubot essentially an AI bot?
19:01:37 <klutometis> Riastradh: i hate to wax philosophical, but what the hell is the empty list? r5rs 3.2 defines it negatively: "it satisfies none of the above [type-]predicates."
19:01:49 <klutometis> Riastradh: i'm convinced that the empty list is essentially the higgs boson
19:02:42 tjafk1 [n=timj@e176197070.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme
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19:03:13 <klutometis> mib_spqfmdpi: in the shallow sense
19:03:34 <klutometis> incubot: the empty list is the higgs boson
19:03:38 <incubot> don't officially have a topic yet, but most likely some Higgs search or something
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19:10:15 <slom> klutometis: the empty list is the singleton element of a type that is distinct from all other types in scheme
19:10:16 <slom> ?
19:11:18 <klutometis> slom: i, too, was tempted to call it a singleton; elf was confused, though, and thought i was talking OO
19:11:58 <slom> singleton because there is no constructor to create other instances of the same type ...
19:12:04 <klutometis> regardless, i think i'll implement it as a singleton; and throw caution to the wind
19:12:26 <klutometis> slom: indeed; a persistent sui generis
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19:33:19 <mib_spqfmdpi> Say I had a list in the format of (switch E (E E)+), where the plus means one or more.  How would I go about adding the (E E)+ part to the end of another list I am constructing?  Assuming s is the incoming statement, I have gotten this far but am not sure if it is correct or not such that all of the (E E) pairs are added.
19:33:20 <mib_spqfmdpi>   (list '&switch (cadr s) (caddr s))
19:34:07 <mib_spqfmdpi> or could I just (cons '&switch (cdr s))
19:34:40 *mib_spqfmdpi* is confused a bit
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19:43:06 <klutometis> mib_spqfmdpi: cddr?
19:43:47 <mib_spqfmdpi> would cddr just work to include the (E E)+ on the end not ((E E)+)
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19:45:36 <synx> rudybot: eval (define l '(switch E (E E) (D D)))
19:45:37 <rudybot> synx: your scheme sandbox is ready
19:45:39 <klutometis> incubot: (cddr '(switch E (E E) (E E)))
19:45:40 <incubot> ((E E) (E E))
19:45:52 <synx> rudybot: eval (car l)
19:45:53 <rudybot> synx: ; Value: switch
19:45:58 <synx> rudybot: eval (caddr l)
19:45:59 <rudybot> synx: ; Value: (E E)
19:46:07 <synx> rudybot: eval (cddr l)
19:46:08 <rudybot> synx: ; Value: ((E E) (D D))
19:50:02 <Fare> rudybot: eval ((lambda (x) (x x)) (lambda (x) (x x)))
19:50:03 <rudybot> Fare: your sandbox is ready
19:50:06 <rudybot> Fare: error: with-limit: out of time
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19:55:21 <synx> haha
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20:01:51 <leppie> rudybot: eval ((lambda (x) `((lambda (x) ,x) ',x)) '`((lambda (x) ,x) ',x))
20:01:53 <rudybot> leppie: your sandbox is ready
20:01:53 <rudybot> leppie: ; Value: ((lambda (x) (quasiquote ((lambda (x) (unquote x)) (quote (unquote x))))) (quote (quasiquote ((lambda (x) (unquote x)) (quote (unquote x))))))
20:02:05 <leppie> ugly printing :|
20:03:09 pfo [n=pfo@chello084114049188.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #scheme
20:04:31 <leppie> is there a setting to make it print 'short-hand' ?
20:04:51 <synx> One thing that's puzzles me about bittorrent is ratio enforcement.
20:04:55 <XTL> like unlambmda?
20:05:17 <zbigniew> lambmal
20:05:36 <leppie> yeah synx, thats like kinda not on the legal side
20:05:41 <synx> I mean psychologically it makes sense. People like to get all self righteous and bully around the weak and frail.
20:05:55 <zbigniew> minion: advice for synx
20:05:55 <minion> synx: #11944: Yes, that's what it's supposed to do when you say that.
20:06:12 <Daemmerung> obamabo
20:06:18 <synx> But technologically, don't peers already implement a tit-for-tat algorithm? What if the files you want are heavily seeded and nobody wants to share from you?
20:06:20 <synx> upload I mean.
20:06:21 <leppie> so synx, you need to keep a good ratio, or else ... :p
20:06:46 <synx> leppie: sorry, what do you mean?
20:07:10 <synx> Yeah I understand that people like ratios because they can threaten others and feel good about it.
20:07:12 <leppie> i was basing that on minion's advice :p
20:07:35 <synx> But I don't see the physical benefit, if we assumed for some odd reason that the participants were rational.
20:07:36 <klutometis> synx: sorry, man; leechers beget tragedy of the commons
20:07:42 <synx> Oh, minion heh
20:08:11 <leppie> no klutometis, i pay like $30 a month for 3gb, i can leech if i want to
20:08:17 <synx> Tragedy of the commons is ameliorated by tit-for-tat. You stop being able to download if you never upload.
20:08:19 <XTL> That's crossed my mind too
20:08:33 <synx> No ratio tracking needed.
20:08:33 <klutometis> leppie: heh
20:08:39 <XTL> I wonder if they really limit everyone by ratios, thoguh
20:08:47 <XTL> Haven't looked at it so closely anyway
20:09:11 <leppie> my GF uses up all my bandwidth every month because her upload ratio is too low...
20:09:12 <synx> If you really wanted to hurt leechers you would ban seeding, because that only benefits leechers. :/
20:09:24 <proq> bittorrent wasn't created for heavy-duty monitoring of leeching vs. seeding.  it would have to do much more work if it did
20:09:31 <synx> XTL: It's worse than a limit usually. They don't even let you seed if your ratio is too low, ergo automatic permaban.
20:09:42 <klutometis> are you guys talking at the isp level, by the way, or at the tracker level?
20:09:44 <leppie> it's a loose/loose scenario i tell her, she wont listen
20:09:49 <zbigniew> incubot: `(,@'().())
20:09:49 <incubot> ()
20:09:51 <leppie> tracker level
20:09:52 <Daemmerung> loose woman
20:10:19 <XTL> loose scenario
20:10:26 <synx> or at the peer level, klutometis.
20:10:26 <klutometis> zbigniew: that's tits with pit hair?
20:10:27 <leppie> i gues i mean lose :p
20:10:56 <XTL> An owl with a pierced ear?
20:10:57 <zbigniew> klutometis: others have seen it as a buxom young lady carrying a soccer ball
20:11:13 <Daemmerung> I see a rabbit in a cloud
20:11:20 <synx> Couldn't I improve someone's ratio anyway, by spamming the tracker with reports that they delivered? I mean it's not like the tracker can tell that it's a lie or not.
20:11:21 <proq> bt does however penalize people with slow upstream connections fwict, which works very well for slowing down leechers
20:11:38 <XTL> Rorshach testing by sexprs
20:11:54 <proq> synx: yes, people have written their own bt clients which are better at leeching unfortunately
20:11:59 <zbigniew> incubot: quasiquote is the Rorschach test of #scheme
20:12:00 <klutometis> synx: do you have an ethical difference with ratios, or are you unable to seed 72 hours after leeching?
20:12:02 <incubot> report for Rorschach recalibration! Sometimes a badly drawn leaf is just a badly drawn leaf. (Actually, I dunno what it's supposed to be, but it's green and vaguely leaf-shaped.)
20:12:25 <zbigniew> -> ()
20:12:37 <leppie> i used to be able to get up to my 4mbit downloads for torrents, lately the isp throttle so much, i barely get 1mbit, probably more like 512k avg
20:12:47 <synx> How do you get better at leeching? I mean, you request pieces, you send pieces. If you send less than you request, people stop sending you pieces. It's not exactly a tweakable algorithm.
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20:12:56 <klutometis> leppie: yeah, isp throttle is evil
20:13:39 <synx> klutometis: I find them inelegant, and they do seem to breed a certain ethical mean-ness, but mostly I just don't see why they're any better than tit for tat.
20:14:01 <synx> leppie: How much download did the ISP sell you? :>
20:14:04 <proq> synx: you can request pieces of the set from all the seeders available and give nothing back
20:14:20 <synx> I sure don't like overselling ISPs.
20:14:23 <leppie> it used to be neat, as their cap would kkick in 6 hours after reaching the limit, and that meant 6gb of what ever for that time, now, no more... unless i can get it locally, which is pretty much impossible except for ubuntu and cygwin
20:14:35 <klutometis> synx: i thought ratios were there to enforce tit-for-tat, where people would otherwise play the game by paying minimally in for maximal out
20:14:37 <proq> the other seeders don't know that you are giving nothing back and assume you are helping seed elsewhere
20:14:48 <synx> proq: Yeah, that's what you're supposed to do. The seeders give out pieces equitably, which translates to very rarely.
20:15:37 <leppie> i get 3gb for R250 from 1 ISP, and 5GB for R300 from another, and then still pay R350 a month line rental, $1=R9.31
20:15:38 <synx> klutometis: No, tit-for-tat is something between peers. Ratios are just a requirement that you report to the tracker who gave you what piece, or something. I don't know the specifics on it.
20:15:55 <geckosenator> shouldn't the peers communicate and inform eachother of where they get data?
20:16:04 <geckosenator> that way if you give nothing back, they stop talking to you
20:16:08 <leppie> line rental maybe more, not sure
20:16:21 <geckosenator> it could be implemented without protocol change
20:16:40 <proq> I'm suddenly realizing I don't know the protocol enough to say how hard it is to leech, but I did hear about people writing custom clients to leech better
20:16:41 <zbigniew> incubot: why don't you take a long seed off a short peer
20:16:42 <synx> geckosenator: That gets tricky though, because peers could lie to each other.
20:16:43 <incubot> With any callback at all you lose any chance of a tight ASM loop.  If I'm going to have WRITE-DIGIT, might as well go all the way and pass it a seed instead of a port.
20:16:58 <geckosenator> synx: it's ok, you can determine who is lying
20:17:11 <geckosenator> synx: by asking them what another peer told them when that peer talks to you too
20:17:12 <synx> How do you determine that?
20:17:24 <geckosenator> synx: if all the peers are lying, you are screwed
20:17:26 <zbigniew> god, this sounds just like high school
20:17:31 <geckosenator> but I'm saying if most are truthful it can work
20:17:45 <proq> I do run a bittorrent network and have seen that when I limit upstream to 0kb/s and downstream to 1000kb/s I still get 1000kb/s
20:17:55 <synx> Well, if all the peers are lying you could just use tit-for-tat :>
20:18:05 <geckosenator> have you heard the riddle about the two roads and an indian on each road, one lies the other tells the truth?
20:18:08 <proq> so the tracker doesn't penalize the leecher
20:18:13 <geckosenator> and you need to know which road to take
20:18:16 <synx> But if peer B tells you it sent a piece to peer A, and peer A tells you that's a lie, then who is lying?
20:18:20 <bpalmer> zbigniew: you keep saying that and we'll have some words in the parking lot at 3pm
20:18:34 <geckosenator> synx: one of them.. you need more peers to determine who is truthful
20:19:15 <synx> unfortunately that riddle only works if one always lies and one always tells the truth.
20:19:23 <geckosenator> yes
20:19:30 <geckosenator> the liers might tell the truth sometimes
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20:19:51 <geckosenator> but since you have a lot more of them, and you know most tell the truth all the time
20:19:58 <geckosenator> should be able to narrow it down
20:20:00 <synx> If peer C tells you peer B is a liar, maybe peer B was the good peer, and C and A are liars. You could go with the majority but... tyranny of the majority at that point.
20:20:16 <geckosenator> but you don't tell others who are liars
20:20:23 <geckosenator> you tell them where you got your data from
20:20:56 <synx> If you go with the majority, and most peers are liars, then you should discard the peer ratings entirely, but if most peers are truthful then you should account for those ratings.
20:21:01 <geckosenator> and if the majority lies are are screwed of course
20:21:11 <geckosenator> yeah
20:21:42 <synx> One way to detect lying is by confirmation.
20:22:00 <geckosenator> that won't always work
20:22:07 <geckosenator> since they might get the data from someone else
20:22:21 <synx> You remember who says who has what piece, and if you get a piece that people claimed wasn't at that peer, you've found some liars.
20:22:40 <leppie> the solution is: everyone are liars, you kill them all
20:22:44 <geckosenator> there are a lot of tests like that
20:22:47 <synx> But nobody would lie about existence of a piece. They would only lie and say it exists, when it doesn't.
20:23:53 <synx> B says A has the piece. A won't send you the piece. Is A the liar, or is B?
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20:24:11 <leppie> it only takes one person to start a lie, the rest just need to believe in it
20:24:22 <geckosenator> the tracker knows what pieces exist?
20:24:36 <synx> So that's why I don't much like peer rating systems. I can't figure out how to determine which is the bad peer.
20:24:39 <proq> I don't think it does
20:24:50 <geckosenator> synx: do you have that problem in real life too?
20:25:04 <klutometis> geckosenator: touche
20:25:26 <synx> geckosenator: sure, just look at small time lenders!
20:25:28 <leppie> most site i think i combine that with some kind of access cookie
20:25:33 <synx> sub-prime mortgages :>
20:25:43 <proq> lendingclub?  :)
20:26:25 <geckosenator> synx: heh
20:26:32 <leppie> so distribute the torrent with some kind of uniwque id
20:26:53 <synx> you go into court and person B says "I loaned 100 bucks to A!" and person A says "I ain't never even seen B!"
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20:27:13 <geckosenator> you don't go to court
20:27:24 <leppie> as long as b cant disprove it, he is screwd :)
20:27:27 <synx> civil claims court
20:27:29 <geckosenator> instead you tell your friends that person B is bad
20:27:33 <synx> maybe it's a USA thing
20:27:34 <geckosenator> and no one gives him money again ever
20:28:00 <geckosenator> since you aren't giving away money, just bandwidth it isn't so bad
20:28:14 <geckosenator> each peer gets rated based on trust
20:28:20 <synx> What if person A is bad? Person B could have really lent that money.
20:28:30 <leppie> we only have 1 ADSL provider in my country..
20:28:36 <geckosenator> then person b tells all his friends how bad a is
20:28:39 <synx> Yeah, bandwidth is pretty cheap.
20:28:53 <synx> jeez leppie
20:28:54 <leppie> synx: maybe where you are
20:28:54 <synx> Telestra?
20:29:10 <geckosenator> you might even have a command line option for "forgiveness factor"
20:29:20 <leppie> no, telkom, or telskum we call it
20:29:41 <leppie> some guy even made a hellkom site
20:29:47 <synx> I don't know the country code ZA go figure. Telestra is Australia's kingpin telecom fat cat at the moment.
20:30:13 <leppie> http://www.helkom.co.za/
20:30:32 <synx> this I gotta see :)
20:31:02 <Daemmerung> A TLD for pizzerias.  Why not?
20:31:11 <leppie> its an 'attack' site against the South African telecoms monopoly
20:31:25 <leppie> Telkom is the provider
20:31:54 <synx> Oops, Telstra not Telestra is Australia's.
20:32:16 <leppie> lol i see the latest news they are getting sued :p
20:33:19 <leppie> technology in the hands of governments are a long time thing of the past. i wish the country would realise that.
20:33:30 <synx> In the USA DSL doesn't have a monopoly so much as cable does. But even so it's mostly AT&T (aka the illegal company Ma Bell) though.
20:33:52 <leppie> but then again again you have to think of the 250 000 job losses probably
20:34:38 <synx> Yeah 250,000 people who can finally do something useful and helpful
20:34:39 <Fare> synx, cable monopoly is a government-mandated thing
20:34:47 <Fare> as was the Ma Bell monopoly before
20:34:50 <leppie> im sure there are more telkom service people than cops in our country :)
20:35:03 <synx> Fare: I know. :( It's pretty awful.
20:35:17 <Fare> monopoly on cops is also typically a governemnt thing
20:35:41 <synx> The Ma Bell monopoly got so bad even the government had to make it illegal, back in the day. Nobody seems to notice the company has completely returned to its former level of power.
20:35:53 <synx> eh, cops
20:36:31 <klutometis> synx: and the hideous changes they wrought on the deathstar logo
20:36:38 <leppie> i still dont know why it takes 2 hours to get thru to them on support call..
20:36:42 <Fare> Why is there only one Monopolies Commission? -- Lord Sutch
20:36:49 <klutometis> plus the castrated at&t font are abominable
20:37:03 <leppie> lol Fare :P
20:37:30 <leppie> you are unique, like everyone else
20:37:36 <geckosenator> maybe the government should just put in fiber internet
20:38:04 <geckosenator> the same way they build roads, they have to have equal miles of fiber
20:38:09 <synx> Around here the government's busy setting up a fiber monopoly e_e
20:38:18 <synx> with content filtering to boot.
20:38:28 <geckosenator> who cares if it's a momopoly if they don't charge you to use it?
20:38:34 <geckosenator> and no conent filtering
20:38:36 <zbigniew> bpalmer: ugh, don't remind me
20:38:38 <leppie> maybe my government should invest in wireless tech, as the illegal wifi startups been giving them a battle ever since they started. That would serve in everyones purpose.
20:39:04 <synx> Oh they charge. The company's name is Viacom. They're promising on the level of the railroad companies at this point.
20:39:38 <leppie> who cares about content filtering? there will ALWAYS be ways around it
20:39:50 <synx> leppie: maybe running a radio station shouldn't be a felony :>
20:40:33 <synx> I care about content filtering. The ways around it require that both sides implement special proceedings, and my friends are not always willing or able to run arbitrary programs on the computer they're at.
20:40:54 <leppie> well running a telecoms link over a public road in my country is a crime
20:40:58 <geckosenator> leppie: it's just annoying, its like putting a fence up
20:41:07 <geckosenator> leppie: what country?
20:41:13 <leppie> South Africa
20:41:14 <synx> Plus the work-arounds are expensive and complex, and thus error prone, when they don't need to exist at all.
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20:41:35 <synx> what about under a public road
20:41:43 <geckosenator> or through it
20:42:01 <leppie> you have to pay the government for that privilige, either over or under the road
20:42:15 <geckosenator> I would rather not have roads
20:42:18 <geckosenator> just dirt paths
20:42:19 <leppie> even if it is wifi or microwoave
20:42:24 <synx> yes embed it in the asphalt
20:42:27 <leppie> or infrared
20:42:53 <synx> Ah the government. Biggest corporation of the bunch.
20:43:08 <leppie> i'm sure it was one of those overspecified aparthied laws :)
20:43:38 <synx> geckosenator: I dunno, on one hand asphalt is convenient, on the other hand it is toxic and leads to things like horseless carriages.
20:43:42 <leppie> the new government probably thought, this would come in handy someday :)
20:43:43 <geckosenator> leppie: are you against aparthied?
20:44:03 <geckosenator> synx: I don't like horseless carriages
20:44:13 <synx> "To prevent from hating other people, you have to pay us money whenever you want to spit."
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20:44:39 <leppie> i grew up during the decline of apartheid, i dont hate it, but i am definitely not for it
20:44:39 <synx> geckosenator: that's why it's on the other hand. :(
20:45:15 <leppie> things happen, let bygones be bygones
20:46:50 <leppie> i'm not gonna feel sorry for previously unfortunate, that's my governments job
20:47:03 <klutometis> this could be considered a correct representation of '(1 2 3) couldnn't it? (quote . ((1+0i . (2+0i . (3+0i . nil))) . nil))
20:47:12 <klutometis> leppie: any opinion on the farmer evictions?
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20:49:54 <leppie> klutometis: my dad is a farmer, and had farm workers, and about 10 years back he bought them all houses within a decent area of our local village. While still paying rent on these houses at a reduced rate, they were given a legal gaurentee when they retire and still working on the farm, the house and premises would become their property.
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20:51:09 <klutometis> leppie: i think the way they're treating the farmers in africa's sometime breadbasket is one of the biggest unsung tragedies of our time
20:51:46 <geckosenator> leppie: how nice
20:51:57 <geckosenator> leppie: my ancestors were kind to their slaves too
20:52:37 <Fare> geckosenator, now they are free, starving, subject to drugs and rape?
20:52:42 <synx> I don't really know much about it... but I do think it's tragic how disproportionate land ownership is. Even if I wanted to I couldn't farm on a postage stamp.
20:53:13 <klutometis> geckosenator: there's a hint of vinegar there, IT serf ;)
20:53:16 <Daemmerung> geckosenator: You might want to chill just a bit.
20:53:22 <geckosenator> klutometis: ?
20:54:10 <synx> I've always said slavery is more of a worker rights issue than the method by which you get paid.
20:54:15 <klutometis> geckosenator: doesn't the free world resemble indentured servitude, especially with the disappearance of the middle class; and mounting debt?
20:54:58 <mbishop_> slavery was like a job, only job's don't give you housing or food
20:54:59 <synx> just because you get paid hourly and can get fired on a dime doesn't mean you're not a slave.
20:55:00 <geckosenator> klutometis: I don't work a job
20:55:53 <geckosenator> mbishop_: you make slavery sound good
20:56:12 <synx> back when they were "freeing" the slaves in the USA they were doing things like locking workers in their factories and leaving them to die when it caught on fire.
20:56:14 <Fare> slavery is just socialism on a smaller scale
20:56:15 <Mr-Cat> May I ask about scheme please? :)
20:56:31 <geckosenator> Mr-Cat: only if you are enslaving conses
20:56:34 <proq> no, we're talking about slavery.
20:56:47 <Fare> cons cells have right! They should mutate whenever they please
20:57:04 <geckosenator> hmm
20:57:07 <proq> don't scheme like that
20:57:14 <Daemmerung> No, conses have certain immutable rights.
20:57:32 <Fare> cons cells that scheme against their master will be reprogrammed
20:57:43 <proq> my cons work for y combinator
20:57:52 <Daemmerung> The rest will be reaped, once unreachable.
20:58:00 <Fare> every cons cell will have a car!
20:58:03 <geckosenator> this is funny
20:58:20 <Daemmerung> Two cars for every cons, and a power set in ev'ry basement.
20:58:34 <synx> I don't use cons, only pros.
20:58:37 <Fare> if you disagree, you'll be put into a (cons) cell
20:59:20 <proq> my prose is more dangerous than your cons
21:00:03 <Fare> the keyboard is mightier than the death ray!
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21:04:37 <klutometis> anyone know a good set of lexer/parser tests for an r5rs parser?
21:06:05 <Daemmerung> Have you pillaged the unit tests of another implementation yet?
21:06:17 <klutometis> Daemmerung: good call
21:06:40 <Daemmerung> Jaffer's "r4rstest.scm" is a good start.  Available in better implementations everywhere.
21:07:24 <klutometis> nice; looks like norvig mirrored it: http://norvig.com/jscheme/r4rstest.scm
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21:09:39 <klutometis> r4rs didn't have things like #b, #o, #d, #x, did it?
21:09:46 <Daemmerung> It certainly did.
21:09:59 <klutometis> yes it did
21:10:26 <klutometis> i'm mainly testing lex/parse, not interpretation; maybe i'll hit up some of the distros for the esoterica
21:11:17 <Daemmerung> r4rstest isn't exactly a validation suite or stress test.  More of a "smoke test" of sorts.
21:11:56 <Daemmerung> (if I remember correctly, I should say)
21:12:10 <klutometis> hmm; although they are testing the limits of quasiquotation
21:12:45 <klutometis> (let ((name1 'x) (name2 'y)) `(a `(b ,,name1 ,',name2 d) e))
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21:15:11 <Daemmerung> Probably testing whatever deviled Jaffer at the time that he wrote it.
21:15:31 <Daemmerung> One interesting lexer test would be bignum boundary cases.
21:16:01 <Daemmerung> (Bignums near the fixnum/bignum boundary, I mean.)
21:16:25 <klutometis> interesting
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21:17:44 <Daemmerung> Because that was what bedeviled me, once upon a time.
21:17:56 <Daemmerung> See also plt\collects\tests\read.ss.
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21:18:28 <Daemmerung> It's full of PLT-isms, but you certainly could cull those.
21:23:47 <klutometis> http://svn.plt-scheme.org/plt/trunk/collects/tests/mzscheme/read.ss?
21:23:51 <klutometis> looks reasonably thorough
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21:24:06 <klutometis> (i'll just ignore the various paren shapes)
21:24:49 <Daemmerung> Yeah, mzscheme, sorry.
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21:29:44 <Riastradh> klutometis, the empty list is an object distinct from every other object that answers true to NULL? and to no other disjoint type predicates.  Its external representation is ().
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21:32:47 <klutometis> Riastradh: why do they shy from speaking of the empty-list-type, then; along with boolean, port, etc.?
21:32:56 <klutometis> why the negative definition?
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21:36:11 <Riastradh> The null type is a disjoint type, with disjoint type predicate NULL?, consisting of one object, the empty list.
21:37:17 <klutometis> good; that's all i wanted to hear. it's a shame, then, that they didn't list NULL? alongside BOOLEAN?, etc. as one of the disjoint type predicates
21:37:25 <Daemmerung> Interesting to compare that against the description of procedure `eof-object?'.
21:37:37 <klutometis> it made me think that the empty list is some sort of singularum tantum
21:37:52 <klutometis> singulare*
21:39:10 <klutometis> Daemmerung: as in, "end of file object"?
21:40:40 <Riastradh> I don't know why NULL? wasn't just added to the list.
21:41:14 <leppie> null? != pair? != list?
21:41:49 <leppie> IIRC the first sentence explains it
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21:57:49 <Mr-Cat> Is it a right place and time to ask about a possible bug in chicken syntax-case?
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21:59:04 <leppie> hmm, dont they use psyntax for syntax-case? if so, i can probably help
21:59:28 <proq> Mr-Cat: rule of thumb in irc is don't ask to ask
22:00:06 <leppie> yeah proq, if no-one cares about the question, they wont answer it either :p
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22:08:08 <proq> r5rs switch
22:08:09 <specbot> Sorry, I couldn't find anything for switch.
22:08:17 -!- slom [n=slom@pD9EB4811.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
22:08:25 <Mr-Cat> Well, I failed to implement a tidy example, so I'll paste a piece of code I'm working on. Don't look at it's semantics - it does not matter. The code is macro that is used to define another macro. If I replace `implicits1' with just `implicits' (this syntax variable is already used above) - I get a strange error.
22:08:35 <lisppaste> Mr-Cat pasted "Strange error" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77699
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22:10:43 <Mr-Cat> Also don't look at the comments. Consider them random
22:12:43 <Mr-Cat> And the error is `Error: invalid syntax: (list :matrix)'
22:13:14 <Mr-Cat> So, did anyone come across such stuff in chicken?
22:19:58 <leppie> '(:matrix) should be just :matrix, just cant introduce list constast variable names
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22:21:37 <leppie> wait, i am still reading
22:22:47 <Daemmerung> incubot: (display (list :matrix))
22:22:48 <incubot> Error: unbound variable: :matrix
22:23:06 <leppie> ok, im not sure i can follow at this hour :)
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22:25:52 <Mr-Cat> leppie: What I'm doing is capturing :matrix, defined at the place of usege of the inner macro
22:26:17 <leppie> i see
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22:26:45 <leppie> when do you get that error?
22:27:55 <lisppaste> Mr-Cat annotated #77699 "Corrected a bit" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77699#1
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22:29:30 <leppie> i think you are going around it the wrong way here
22:30:00 <leppie> is :matrix defined in the scope?
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22:30:36 <leppie> what does it do actually
22:32:00 <Daemmerung> I gather that a solitary backslash is a valid identifier in Chicken?  Not so in Gambit, PLT, or R5RS.
22:32:30 <leppie> or IronScheme, i changed it to %, but then it complained about 'sum'
22:32:44 <Mr-Cat> leppie: `rule'  actually defines a `function', that has several possible `bodies', one of which is chosen at random when the function is called...
22:32:57 <Mr-Cat> Oh, seems, that I'll have to paste the complete example
22:33:03 <geckosenator> is it just me, or do you like it when you write "cond" with lots of conditions where each condition is completely different?
22:33:50 <Mr-Cat> geckosenator: Is it a question for me?
22:33:57 <leppie> or me?
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22:34:21 <geckosenator> anyone
22:35:01 <leppie> ahh, excludes me then :)
22:35:38 <geckosenator> no yo uare someone
22:35:50 <Mr-Cat> leppie: But (at list I think so) each call to the `function' should pass it implicitly a captured variable. :P
22:35:55 <Mr-Cat> I'll give an example
22:35:58 <Mr-Cat> soon
22:36:18 <Mr-Cat> (that's why I didn't want to discuss semantics) :)
22:36:29 <leppie> i need to sleep now, paste link in private, i'll check when i wake :p
22:39:11 <Mr-Cat> leppie: I think, I'll do it next time I see you. A should think about the whole code a bit. :)
22:39:55 <leppie> ok :]
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22:42:30 <Mr-Cat> In fact I'm implementing a DSL and all I've got for now is the idea of how the expressions in that DSL should look. So, using implicitly defined and used variables is just my first try.
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22:51:43 <Mr-Cat> Sometimes I don't understand why my own code works :(
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22:57:20 <proq> I suspect that's better than not understanding how to make the code work though
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23:15:04 <geckosenator> is there a standard function which removes duplicate entrees from a list?
23:16:23 <Mr-Cat> I don't think so.
23:16:31 <geckosenator> ok
23:17:03 <Mr-Cat> Oh, nm
23:17:10 <Mr-Cat> Maybe delete-duplicates from srfi-1 will do?
23:18:53 <Mr-Cat> geckosenator: It seems to be what you're looking for
23:19:52 <geckosenator> maybe!
23:20:18 <geckosenator> nice
23:20:37 <geckosenator> oh, I need to sort my sublists too I guess
23:20:47 <geckosenator> but that works
23:26:59 <synx> man this sgml parser was working great until I considered things like <!DOCTYPE ...> that looks like a tag, but never closes and can contain < and > within it.
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23:27:33 <synx> I'm not sure a FSM can represent those documents now.
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23:29:04 <gnomon> How could an FSM represent an XML document with arbitrarily nestable elements in the first place..?
23:30:25 <synx> more like I just suck...
23:30:35 <synx> gnomon: Just to extract it out to a linear sequence of start, contents, end thingies. Then I was going to use that to build a parse tree.
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23:32:10 <synx> But the former I just can't figure out. If you are in contents area, and you hit a <, then you have to check if the next character is !, and then... you have to change languages, but remember where you changed so you can change back, or...something...
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23:33:41 <synx> you have to start using a stack then, because you can't tell when a > indicates you're back in the old language, or when you're still in that weird non-XML DOCTYPE language.
23:34:49 <synx> Why the hell they didn't do <doctype><element>...</element></doctype> I have no clue. Maybe they felt guilty about lisp.
23:35:19 <gnomon> synx, how do you plan to handle embedded JavaScript?
23:35:53 <geckosenator> char->ascii doesn't work..
23:35:57 <geckosenator> is there an alternative?
23:35:57 <gnomon> <script language="JavaScript">alert("</script>"); alert(10 + 10); </script>
23:36:51 <synx> There's another where you have to switch languages gnomon. They demand that you indicate that with <[CDATA[ and ]]>, but as you have demonstrated ignorant people do not do that.
23:38:00 <synx> ...making it impossible to display "]]>" as a javascript alert, but the XML people like to cover their ears and sing loudly at that point.
23:38:29 <fean> (with '!':  <![CDATA[ )
23:38:48 <synx> sorry fean yeah
23:38:56 <synx> one of those damned ! things.
23:39:30 <synx> <! indicates some kind of crazy language switch, either CDATA, or that funky lisp-with-brackets DOCTYPE language.
23:40:07 saccade_ [n=saccade@BRAIN-AND-COG-THREE-TWELVE.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme
23:41:05 <synx> ...except inside those languages where of course <! has an entirely different and unspecified behavior.
23:41:35 <gnomon> Have fun!
23:42:07 <synx> <!SOMETHING <! <! <!> >> > > <! > could be valid...
23:42:41 <synx> Needless to say I'm not a big fan of mixing two languages in the same file.
23:42:53 <synx> <?php ...
23:43:02 <gnomon> How do you feel about RSS autodiscovery?
23:43:46 <synx> Uh, it's okay I guess? That's what makes the little orange thingy in the URI bar, right?
23:46:48 <Mr-Cat> synx:  How often do you display "]]>" as a javascript alert? :)
23:47:32 <synx> Mr-Cat: or better yet, stop complaining it can be base64 encoded! :o
23:48:11 <Mr-Cat> ]]> seems to be a bizzare smiley. Even more bizzare, that a double chin `))', some folks here were laughing at me for. :)
23:49:13 <Mr-Cat> s/that/than/
23:49:14 <Mr-Cat> Oh, I know! ]]> is a top view of a shaved hedgehog
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23:53:54 <Mr-Cat> In fact, I'd prefer both xml and javascript, written with s-expressions :)
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