00:04:35 Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has joined #scheme 00:06:14 -!- s76__ [n=todos@240-90-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:06:43 s76__ [n=todos@201-58-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 00:10:38 kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-165-128-172.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 00:15:32 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:15:58 haole [n=ivan@200-168-90-186.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #scheme 00:16:02 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:18:23 does anybody have experience with mzscheme being used for applications that relies on high-performance? i like mzscheme's object system and want to use it, but i don't know if it can be optimized to my needs... it's not something as hardcore as a C program performance... but i need to receive and treat an information through an UDP socket in less than 33ms 00:21:45 haole: benchmarks are somewhat erroneous, but http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/gp4/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=mzscheme&lang2=gcc&box=1 00:21:46 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/b8t5uv 00:25:15 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-133-189.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:25:53 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@151.204.133.189] has joined #scheme 00:30:15 incubot: shootout.alioth.debian.org, where dreams go to die 00:30:19 I used a debian package I found on alioth somewhere, saving me from having to compile Gambit. I don't even know whether that was compiled using --enable-single-host 00:32:18 haole: re high performance applications, I think that neilv has such experience. He's off an on here. 00:32:57 haole: and re the performance of the object system -- it is pretty good in both speed and memory consumption. Better than a naive closure-based implementation. 00:34:32 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:35:40 -!- metasynt1x [n=taylor@pool-71-127-85-87.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [""Nichts mehr.""] 00:36:27 metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-127-85-87.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 00:40:15 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-137-203-229.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:40:56 SweetwaterDixon [n=user@210.48.104.34] has joined #scheme 00:41:58 haole: stalin makes claims about being the most aggressive optimizing compiler, fwiw 00:43:35 a fitting name 00:44:11 stalin is a very "different" scheme. 00:45:35 synx: The doc bug is fixed, and there was some confusion in the descriptions too that were fixed. 00:46:41 what's different about stalin? 00:47:14 In Soviet Union, compiler optimizes _you_ 00:49:31 Elly: It's a completely static, closed-world kind of compiler. 00:50:05 That is, no `eval', no `load', no repl; and no hope of getting one without obviously sacrificing its great performance. 00:50:09 offby1: I think that is true even outside the USSR. 00:59:58 okay 01:00:03 stalin takes a while to compile. 01:00:06 It's been 20 minutes 01:00:52 I don't know about compiling stalin itself, but using stalin to compile program is notoriously long. 01:01:20 We're talking long as in "several hours", not the usual internet long of "2 minutes". 01:01:34 eli, not for "well typed" programs. 01:02:06 mejja: I have no idea what that means. 01:02:18 Elly: --enable-single-host 01:02:28 Whoops. Gambit is a big offender as well with --enable-single-host 01:02:38 As foreshadowed by incubot. 01:03:44 thanks for all the answers... if mzscheme can compare to something like python's bytecode interpreter performance, i think it will be enough... 01:04:12 okay, that was pretty cool. 01:04:19 my system went OOM and died. 01:05:31 haole: IIUC from various places it should be better. 01:05:50 troter [n=troter@nurikabe.timedia.co.jp] has joined #scheme 01:06:14 -!- Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 01:07:49 yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 01:09:20 -!- bsmntbombdood [n=gavin@97-118-119-177.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:11:12 -!- orgy` [n=ratm_@pD9FFE33A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Gone."] 01:13:48 jao [n=jao@221.Red-79-155-152.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 01:20:09 -!- haole [n=ivan@200-168-90-186.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 01:20:20 geckosen1tor [n=sean@71.237.94.78] has joined #scheme 01:20:47 -!- geckosenator [n=sean@71.237.94.78] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:24:44 bsmntbombdood [n=gavin@97-118-126-222.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 01:31:11 -!- parodyoflanguage [n=user@mmds-216-19-46-146.sqpk.az.commspeed.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:31:27 parodyoflanguage [n=user@mmds-216-19-46-146.sqpk.az.commspeed.net] has joined #scheme 01:42:39 -!- parodyoflanguage [n=user@mmds-216-19-46-146.sqpk.az.commspeed.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 01:42:46 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:43:02 morphir_ [n=morphir@217.168.81.9] has joined #scheme 01:45:31 -!- XTL [i=t6haha00@rhea.oamk.fi] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:45:31 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:45:31 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:45:31 -!- levi [n=user@levi.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:45:31 -!- X-Scale [i=email@2001:470:1f08:b3d:0:0:0:2] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:45:31 -!- hark [n=strider@hark.slew.org] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:45:31 -!- geckosen1tor [n=sean@71.237.94.78] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:45:31 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-190-201.netcologne.de] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:45:31 -!- morphir [n=morphir@217.168.81.9] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:45:31 -!- zbigniew [n=zb@3e8.org] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:45:31 -!- clog [i=nef@bespin.org] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:45:31 -!- vincenz [n=vincenz@li23-146.members.linode.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:45:31 -!- rodge [n=roderic@pinball.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:46:34 geckosenator [n=sean@71.237.94.78] has joined #scheme 01:46:35 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 01:46:35 emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 01:46:35 levi [n=user@levi.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 01:46:35 XTL [i=t6haha00@rhea.oamk.fi] has joined #scheme 01:47:45 synthase [n=synthase@68.63.48.10] has joined #scheme 01:48:49 -!- minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:48:49 -!- specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:48:50 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:50:37 rodge [n=roderic@129.10.116.123] has joined #scheme 01:50:37 geckosen1tor [n=sean@71.237.94.78] has joined #scheme 01:50:37 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-190-201.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 01:50:37 X-Scale [i=email@2001:470:1f08:b3d:0:0:0:2] has joined #scheme 01:50:37 hark [n=strider@hark.slew.org] has joined #scheme 01:50:37 morphir [n=morphir@217.168.81.9] has joined #scheme 01:50:37 clog [i=nef@bespin.org] has joined #scheme 01:50:37 zbigniew [n=zb@3e8.org] has joined #scheme 01:50:37 vincenz [n=vincenz@li23-146.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 01:52:00 if I need to pass say, an array of C strings to pass to a FFI, I'm told using collectable memory is a Bad Thing. 01:52:49 Should I make sure to definitely use malloc, and free it once the foreign function has finished with said table? Is there already a way to do that systematically? 01:54:51 -!- zbigniew [n=zb@3e8.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:55:22 well, I'll do that for now. 01:55:33 If you're passing any object to the C side and the C side can/will keep a reference to it, then you shouldn't pass GC-able values. 01:56:34 lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 01:56:42 -!- kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-165-128-172.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:56:55 It won't keep a reference to it. 01:56:56 kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-165-128-172.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 01:57:52 -!- timchen1` is now known as nasloc__ 01:58:07 minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 01:58:09 also eli the description for scheme_make_fd_input_port now says "Creates a Scheme input port from a byte string;". Also scheme_make_byte_string_input_port is mysteriously missing. 01:58:14 specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 01:58:57 if it won't keep a reference, then you can use GCable blocks -- they're being held by the foreign interface while the call is made. 01:59:35 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A031E.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:00:01 -!- morphir [n=morphir@217.168.81.9] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:00:08 synx: as for the description -- are you referring to what you see on the web page (docs.plt-scheme.org)? 02:00:33 And they won't get moved? 02:00:45 benny [n=benny@i577A0D29.versanet.de] has joined #scheme 02:01:08 No, they won't move -- the GC doesn't get to work while in a foreign call. 02:01:12 eh, sorry I thought it was fixed. hasn't gotten there yet. 02:01:37 It was fixed in svn, the web page will mirror the fix only after a new build will finish. 02:02:36 If you're eager to read the correct docs, then you can look at the source: http://svn.plt-scheme.org/plt/trunk/collects/scribblings/inside/ports.scrbl 02:02:38 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/daoeab 02:02:45 It should be pretty readable. 02:02:56 sure thanks. 02:04:18 -!- geckosen1tor [n=sean@71.237.94.78] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:04:56 sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-150-7.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 02:11:04 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 02:11:21 zbigniew [n=zb@3e8.org] has joined #scheme 02:12:57 yhara [n=yhara@raichu.netlab.jp] has joined #scheme 02:16:28 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:16:40 vincenz_ [n=vincenz@li23-146.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 02:19:12 -!- sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-150-7.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 02:19:40 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-190-201.netcologne.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 02:21:07 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-150-7.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 02:22:28 ventonegro [n=alex@189.100.194.86] has joined #scheme 02:22:29 kupesoft [n=dave@unaffiliated/kupesoft] has joined #scheme 02:23:09 is TinyScheme my best bet for embedded processors with for environments with about ~8mb of ram 02:23:39 s/with for environments// 02:28:35 you might be able to use scheme48 02:29:01 -!- vincenz [n=vincenz@li23-146.members.linode.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:29:04 -!- felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has quit [Client Quit] 02:32:31 duncanm: It's a little heavy weight, after an hour of hacking up the config script since (it had poor cross-compiling support), I got it running, but it complained about not having enough stack size 02:33:02 i read that they ran s48 on some robots once 02:33:32 kupesoft: Riastradh is someone who might know more about how to configure scheme48 02:35:15 I ended up just fudging the configure variables 02:35:52 When I finally got a binary, then I couldn't bootstrap the scheme image (which was fine, I think it's platform independent) 02:37:14 kupesoft: http://dynamo.iro.umontreal.ca/~gambit/wiki/images/0/03/Picobit-r2.tgz 02:37:41 never used it, though 02:39:50 Montreal! 02:40:13 duncanm: More likely you heard about Gambit (probably the link that ventonegro mentioned) 02:42:46 eli: nope, it's scheme48 02:42:49 "In 1991-92 JAR hacked intensively on Scheme 48 so that it could maintain a common code base with the mobile robot system. " 02:42:53 http://mumble.net/~jar/s48/ 02:43:30 "I introduced new modules as necessary so as to carve the system into parts to be built into the mobile robot system, those to go into the teledebugging system, those to go into the full non-robot system, and those to go into the various overlaps of these destinations." 02:44:15 duncanm: In that case, both "robots" and the code involved are probably very extremely irrelevant now. 02:44:26 http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.50.8035 02:44:35 Program Mobile Robots in Scheme 02:45:02 -!- specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:45:18 seemed interesting 02:48:46 -!- kupesoft [n=dave@unaffiliated/kupesoft] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:49:27 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 02:51:40 Aw, he's gone already. Nobody told him about PICBit, XSLisp or Hedgehog Lisp. 02:51:47 Oh well. 02:52:58 -!- saccade [n=saccade_@COMBINATOR.MIT.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:57:55 gnomon: how active are these implementations? 02:58:39 kupesoft [n=dave@unaffiliated/kupesoft] has joined #scheme 02:58:46 ah, he's back 02:58:59 kupesoft: gnomon knows of more implementations 02:59:39 hi hi hi hi 02:59:57 gnomon: hiya 02:59:58 kupesoft, were you talking about Tiny-Scheme or Scheme48 earlier when you described spending an hour hacking a configuration script? 03:00:15 TinyScheme doesn't use autoconf, so scheme48 03:00:43 What specifically were you hacking? 03:01:06 I successfully (subject to testing) packaged TinyScheme for OpenWrt, but I wanted something a little heavier -- a *little* heavier 03:01:28 kupesoft, I was going to mention PICBit, XS Lisp and Hedgehog Lisp. They are all Scheme-like Lisp implementations that purely target microcontrollers, and they are all "not really Scheme" to some extent. 03:01:50 The heap images are machine-independent (unless you put machine-dependent information in them). The only cross-compiling that should be necessary is of the virtual machine. 03:02:14 I managed to cross-compile the vm 03:02:27 (of scheme48) 03:03:57 wy [n=wy@c-98-228-40-51.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:04:27 neat 03:06:09 -!- ventonegro [n=alex@189.100.194.86] has quit [] 03:07:03 but when I pushed the binary to an OpenWrt installation, it complained about an invalid stack size and exited 03:08:56 Are there any other scheme implementation of small size and high quality? 03:09:04 that you recommend? 03:09:18 -!- underspecified_ [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has quit [] 03:09:33 No, but I'd like to find out why Scheme48 isn't working for you. 03:10:18 What changes did you make specifically? 03:12:51 felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined #scheme 03:13:13 Is there any way I can introduce a binding to capture a free variable with syntax-rules? 03:14:15 No. 03:14:28 Not without the user's supplying its name, anyway. 03:15:28 There will be "return"s in the input, but they will be free. I want to capture them and bind them to a continuation 03:15:48 Have the user tell you what name to use. 03:16:06 uh oh, weird error. 03:16:12 unbound identifier (and no #%top syntax transformer is bound) in: tmp26 03:16:36 Can I defined a inner macro that tranforms whatever "return" it sees? 03:16:53 Yes, but you don't want to. 03:16:59 Consider (LET ((RETURN (LAMBDA (X) ...))) ...). 03:17:17 Or (QUOTE (RETURN FOO)). 03:17:29 Hmm.. That's weird 03:19:00 Riastradh: No changes, really 03:19:44 I configure with ac_cv_sizeof_void_p=4, ac_cv_bits_per_byte=8, and pthreads_done=yes 03:20:08 Riastradh: let the user to supply the name is a good idea 03:22:07 hmph... it's getting to the syntax phase, but dying somewhere in there mysteriously 03:24:09 kupesoft, and what precisely did Scheme48 complain of? 03:27:32 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 03:29:05 -!- gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:30:03 -!- kam [n=km@71-212-171-60.hlrn.qwest.net] has left #scheme 03:30:41 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:32:02 -!- grnman [i=grnman@shell.thehostbusters.com] has left #scheme 03:37:21 -!- bsmntbombdood [n=gavin@97-118-126-222.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:38:03 bsmntbombdood [n=gavin@97-118-129-204.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 03:39:03 -!- wy [n=wy@c-98-228-40-51.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:42:39 Riastradh: sec, I'll compile it again 03:44:53 I have scheme48.image and scheme48vm on the target 03:45:57 root@router:~# ./scheme48vm -i scheme48.image 03:45:58 unable to allocate heap space 03:46:23 Try passing `-h' with a number of words that fits in your memory. 03:47:09 2866708 is the miniminum 03:48:07 the vm boots 03:48:07 Do you mean that Scheme48 refuses to accept a heap smaller than that? If so, what does refusal constitute, exactly? 03:48:08 hurray 03:48:15 OK. 03:48:19 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit ["Smile! "] 03:48:36 http://dpaste.com/13237/ 03:48:40 All is not well 03:49:13 The interpreter is taking up 82% of the memory on my router :P 03:49:29 It runs pretty well, though 03:50:05 nice that I got it running, though 03:50:33 Well, you can make a smaller image if you like. 03:51:50 I could fine tune it, yeah 03:51:51 You can edit the definition of USUAL-FEATURES in scheme/more-packages.scm to exclude some parts of the system. 03:51:53 > (* 2866708 4) 03:51:53 11466832 03:52:08 That's how big only the heap is, not to mention the vm and image overhead 03:52:23 Riastradh: It's not just the image, that's only 3MB 03:52:33 That includes the image. Anything else allocated by the VM is probably pretty negligible. 03:52:41 Specifically, that number is four times the image. 03:52:47 ...four times the size of the image, I mean. 03:55:18 The image is about 3MB, the memory used by the vm is about 25MB 03:57:55 ...ah, are you using the twospace GC or the bibop GC? 03:59:22 jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:00:03 johnnowak [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 04:04:02 bitweiler [n=phax@adsl-70-237-128-98.dsl.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 04:06:16 underspecified [n=eric@isa7-dhcp-116-127.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 04:09:03 -!- SweetwaterDixon [n=user@210.48.104.34] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:12:10 -!- ayrnieu [n=julian@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:13:59 banisterfiend [n=john@203-97-217-154.cable.telstraclear.net] has joined #scheme 04:15:11 saccade [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 04:20:18 unitxt [n=unitxt@74-60-186-186.ral.clearwire-dns.net] has joined #scheme 04:22:51 -!- unitxt [n=unitxt@74-60-186-186.ral.clearwire-dns.net] has left #scheme 04:32:56 -!- meanburrito920_ [n=John@76.236.77.175] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:33:14 meanburrito920_ [n=John@adsl-76-236-77-175.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 04:35:29 emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 04:42:09 Riastradh: the default, twospace? 04:53:40 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-151-145.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 04:53:59 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:54:44 Will the other help? 04:59:37 lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has joined #scheme 04:59:42 OT. Please help me solve this (need for presentation tomorrow). You are given N input lines. You have some switches. Each 'switch' is associated with a set of input lines. When t\ 04:59:45 he switch is turned on, those input lines are blocked. If you want to be able to select an arbitrary line (with all other lines off), you need atleast log_2(N) lines, and you can\ do it with log_2(N) lines. Suppose now, I want to select a pair of lines (with all other lines turned off). I need atleast log_2(N * (N-1)) lines -- however, can I actually do i\ 04:59:52 t using log_2(N*(N-1))? 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[n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 08:00:10 ejs [n=eugen@94-248-90-181.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #scheme 08:03:10 elmex [i=elmex@ist.m8geil.de] has joined #scheme 08:03:25 crypto_ [n=z0d@artifact.hu] has joined #scheme 08:07:42 ejs1 [n=eugen@94-248-90-181.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #scheme 08:07:56 -!- ejs [n=eugen@94-248-90-181.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:15:49 -!- z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:17:36 beekor [n=TurdFerg@c-98-227-159-6.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 08:18:16 mbishop_ [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has joined #scheme 08:23:09 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #scheme 08:24:31 eli? 08:25:43 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B054121.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 08:27:35 ASau: yes? 08:28:00 I'm trying to build trunk PLT. 08:28:09 ok. 08:28:22 "cd ." commands cause problems, I have to patch them away. 08:28:47 -!- beekor [n=TurdFerg@c-98-227-159-6.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has left #scheme 08:28:50 More precisely: 08:28:55 sometarget: 08:28:57 cd . 08:29:27 What are you replacing them with? 08:29:28 - for unknown reason this causes make to fail. 08:29:36 I'm replacing them with 08:29:38 [It looks like a no-op anyway.] 08:29:40 sometarget:; 08:29:53 With a semicolon? 08:30:07 That looks suspiciously gnu-make-like. 08:30:09 which is traditional way to express noop in make. 08:30:25 Do you know if it's portable? 08:30:26 It works in BSD makes. 08:30:45 Probably semicolon may be omitted. 08:31:08 I don't know any implementation of minimal posix make. 08:31:28 (Not that I'm interested in it either.) 08:32:40 Well, speaking about portability -- we've ran into some gmake-isms problems which made things difficult on "other" platforms. 08:32:49 ("other" is almost always solaris.) 08:33:14 And, what's the problem that make has with `cd .'? 08:33:17 I'll publish patches. 08:33:22 No idea. 08:33:29 You have more fixes? 08:33:33 stupid C 08:33:50 MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 08:33:54 (1 && x) != x 08:33:59 I simply replace these "cd ." with less problematic noops. 08:34:09 -!- mbishop [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:34:22 ok -- no need for a patch, they're easy to grep and replace. 08:35:27 src/mred/Makefile.in and src/mzscheme/Makefile.in 08:37:37 Also in src/Makefile.in 08:40:45 ASau: I see a difference -- "foo:;" makes it think that there is nothing to do, and the "cd ." thing does make it do something. So it might make a difference somewhere. 08:41:17 ASau: Perhaps ":" instead of "cd ." will make the bsd make happy? 08:41:46 I'll try using no command. 08:41:52 I have to run away for a while. 08:42:06 Maybe till the evening. 08:42:12 ASau: Can you make me if the build went fine? 08:42:19 I'm close to crashing. 08:42:32 Yes, I'll report. 08:42:39 OK, thanks. eli@barzilay.org 08:55:47 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:57:50 -!- wingo-tp [n=wingo@153.Red-79-156-146.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:01:40 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B054121.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 09:04:49 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-138-129.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 09:20:14 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 09:32:41 tr3 [n=tr3@host207-237-dynamic.54-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 09:35:00 Would it be fair to say that functions aren't first class in stalin? 09:35:06 as they can't be created at run-time? 09:35:09 No, it would not. 09:35:20 ? 09:36:19 is the ability to create functions at run-time generally considered a part of being first-class? 09:37:04 "First class" generally refers to being a normal value which can be passed to and returned from other procedures, and stored in data-structures. 09:37:52 So, I'm trying to find out what makes functions in stalin first-class and function pointers in C/C++ not. 09:37:59 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 09:39:53 -!- tr3 [n=tr3@host207-237-dynamic.54-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:40:11 -!- mornfall [n=mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit ["reboot [hung mpt fusion *sigh*]"] 09:42:07 other then syntax thatis. 09:43:39 -!- mmc [n=mima@gw1.teleca.fi] has quit ["Leaving."] 09:44:01 mmc [n=mima@gw1.teleca.fi] has joined #scheme 09:44:26 The functions that exist in C/C++ _are_ first class. 09:44:43 However, they are limited - there are no anonymous functions and no closures. 09:45:17 Hrm 09:45:27 I see 09:46:06 I've generally heard C++ being referred to as not having first-class functions. I suppose it's largely a matter of semantics though. 09:46:16 as they are much less usable. 09:47:48 See qsort(3), signal handlers, or the callbacks in any GUI library. 09:51:25 By "first class functions" people almost always mean the ability to create closures. 09:52:25 Also, not being able to create anonymous functions is not a limitation. 09:52:43 no? 09:52:55 No. 09:53:02 It's not a limitation, but it's clumsy :) 09:53:11 Not even that. 09:53:45 care to explain? 09:54:21 You could easily replace every (lambda (x) blah) with (let () (define (name x) blah) name) -- no anonymous functions needed. 09:54:47 Yes, and that's clumsy, and having to name everything is a pain. 09:55:32 That is two orders of magnitude less important than not having closures. 09:55:35 Just like I don't want to have to name the intermediate results of arithmetic or nested function calls. 09:55:36 I think at the very least it ends up being a pain. 09:56:22 How is it a pain? Give me a C dialect with closures and it's very easy to CPP in a `lambda'. 09:57:17 Sure, but there are generally non-technical problems to CPP in a lambda 09:57:19 But we don't have closures either! :) 09:57:23 Which agreed, is much worse. 09:57:59 Which is why I said from the beginning that C's functions are much weaker because of no anonymous functions _and_ no closures. 09:58:06 Arelius: These problems (like finding a free identifier) do have solutions, but still they are just technicalities. 09:58:29 foof: Yes, not having closures *is* the real deficiency of C -- 09:58:40 eli: the problems are such as running preprocessors on existing projects. 09:58:47 but you have "goto" which is the same thing 09:58:56 -- the one that makes it be commonly known as a language without first class functions. 09:59:38 geckosenator: feel free to demonstrate how you get closures with `goto'. 10:00:06 Easy - first you implement a Lisp interpreter... 10:00:21 really a lisp compiler 10:00:31 and it generates c code with gotos in it 10:01:06 Arelius: I'm not following you; something like #define lambda(arg,expr) { int __NAME__(arg) { return expr; }; return __NAME__; } is close enough, what problems do you see in that? 10:02:16 eli: the fact that that won't work in C/C++ 10:02:20 at all 10:02:38 Arelius: Yes, yes -- but that's because you don't have *closures*. 10:03:04 geckosenator: I still don't see how you intend to use `goto' to implement closures -- in a way that is different than "in my lisp reimplementation I used a goto once". 10:03:51 mornfall [n=mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #scheme 10:03:54 eli: Fair enough, But the thing is that lambda is much easier to implement in C's memory management model then closures. 10:04:19 ?? 10:04:23 eli: and inner functions is something that could be implemented in a C compiler in less then a day 10:04:30 closures not so much. 10:04:40 Implementing lambda usually means implementing closures. 10:04:53 eli: sorry, ment anonymous inner functions. 10:05:00 I find that statement very questionable. 10:05:11 how so? 10:05:37 Implementing *closures* will make the compiler very different, certainly more than a day's job. 10:06:04 eli: That's what I ment, but Anonymous Inner functions would be a day's job 10:07:17 -!- synthase [n=synthase@68.63.48.10] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:07:35 Arelius: I don't follow you now. There are two features that we're talking about: closures and anonymous functions. What I'm saying is that implementing the former in some C compiler is a huge project, and implementing the latter can be done in 30 minutes, more or less. 10:07:35 jberg [n=johan@229.84-48-210.nextgentel.com] has joined #scheme 10:07:54 -!- yhara [n=yhara@raichu.netlab.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:08:12 -!- mbishop_ [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:08:30 eli: There is complete agreement there. 10:08:32 gcc supports inner functions 10:08:53 eli: So I think it's very frustrating that anonymous functions haven't been implemented 10:08:58 and a limitation of a sort. 10:09:15 they are implemented 10:09:21 that's what lambda is 10:09:47 if you don't care about performance you can do them in c with dlopen 10:10:16 Arelius: yes, a limitation is an extreme understatement. 10:10:22 mbishop_ [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has joined #scheme 10:10:28 I once had a c program write a c program to a file, compile it and dynamically link it and call functions in it 10:10:37 eli: Also, not being able to create anonymous functions is not a limitation. 10:10:46 which allows you to create closures 10:11:06 Arelius: it's a feature 10:11:18 geckosenator: Sure, but I think if you are capable of doing that, you are also capable of using a more capable language. 10:11:25 geckosenator: What? 10:13:54 geckosenator: either GCC's inner functions are not closures, or I'm in for a serious surprise. 10:14:21 I don't think GCC's inner functions are standard 10:14:27 -!- jao [n=jao@221.Red-79-155-152.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:14:37 and they are certinally not closures 10:14:48 that's against the whole C school of thought 10:18:02 OK, I'm surprised. 10:18:25 Hrm? 10:18:56 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:19:20 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 10:19:54 eli pasted "GCC hack" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/76882 10:21:20 Hrm... 10:21:23 they actually are closures with limited extent 10:21:26 That compiles in gcc? 10:21:36 foof: Ahh, that'd explain it. 10:21:45 But we've have this conversation before, with the same participants. 10:21:47 foof: so you couldn't do some of the more complicated things with them. 10:22:38 foof: How are they limited? 10:23:00 (If there was a conversation then either I missed it, or I'm senile.) 10:23:12 eli: Because C has no gcc, so they only make sense while their variable locations exist on the stack. 10:23:18 s/gcc/gc 10:23:19 eli: http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-2.95.3/gcc_4.html#SEC65 It seems like you got lucky.... 10:23:30 -!- tjafk1 [n=timj@e176203064.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:23:58 eli: "If you try to call the nested function through its address after the containing function has exited, all hell will break loose...." 10:25:45 Arelius: I saw that page, and if you look at my example then that's a case where hell should have broken loose. 10:26:02 elf: if you read the rest of the comment... 10:26:04 err 10:26:05 eli 10:26:21 " If you try to call it after a containing scope level has exited, and if it refers to some of the variables that are no longer in scope, you may be lucky, but it's not wise to take the risk." 10:26:35 You didn't call anything afterwards to have overwritten the stack 10:26:45 so it's still there at the same place 10:26:50 but if you try to store it for a bit 10:27:01 you would get it to break right quick. 10:27:10 Yes yes, I just read it. 10:27:26 IOW, GCC has closures "sometimes". 10:27:30 But, that's still much better then nothing at all. 10:27:40 pity it's only GCC and only C 10:28:26 mike [n=m@dslb-088-067-043-018.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 10:28:36 I was sarcastic... That limitation basically says "inner functions are not closures, although you might be lucky in some rare cases". 10:28:54 -!- mike is now known as Guest35949 10:29:52 Heh 10:29:59 Anyways, I'm heading out 10:30:05 talk to you all laters 10:30:22 eli annotated #76882 "Just in case anyone takes this too seriously" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/76882#1 10:30:26 I'm unsurprised. 10:31:21 woot at lambda 10:32:13 I was just playing. 10:32:19 Ignore it. 10:32:27 Heh, Night 10:32:36 orgy` [n=ratm_@pD9FFEAC8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 10:33:07 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 10:33:35 -!- Arelius [n=Indy@209.77.67.98] has quit [] 10:37:54 -!- jberg [n=johan@229.84-48-210.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 10:48:18 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 10:51:18 elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has joined #scheme 10:52:26 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:52:58 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 10:54:39 jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 10:58:10 tjafk [n=timj@e176203064.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 11:06:52 -!- halfcore [i=noam@ip136-63-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:08:38 -!- Mr-Cat [n=Miranda@hermes.lanit.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:13:49 yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 11:16:29 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #scheme 11:19:34 -!- troter [n=troter@nurikabe.timedia.co.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 11:20:32 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit [Client Quit] 11:24:45 foof: no, C functions are NOT first class by your definitions. 11:25:14 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:25:15 foof: TIAS 11:25:27 test.c:110: error: `test' declared as function returning a function 11:26:29 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 11:30:06 -!- crypto_ is now known as z0d 11:30:45 eli: does it need more resources or it is an error? 11:30:45 setup-plt: in web-server/managers 11:30:45 PLT Scheme virtual machine has run out of memory; aborting 11:30:45 *** Signal 6 11:38:20 edw [n=edw@c-76-99-36-31.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 11:38:29 yhara_ [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 11:38:35 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:40:32 halfcore [i=noam@ip136-63-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #scheme 11:45:46 -!- tjafk [n=timj@e176203064.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:52:06 -!- hark [n=strider@hark.slew.org] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 11:52:22 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:52:22 -!- minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:55:13 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@94-248-90-181.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:56:43 synthase [n=synthase@68.63.48.10] has joined #scheme 11:58:06 lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 11:59:51 minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 12:00:00 specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 12:18:03 -!- geckosenator [n=sean@71.237.94.78] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 12:34:47 -!- yhara_ [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:36:52 ASau: That supposedly means your operating system is hard killing plt for reaching memory limits. 12:39:54 synx: you are wrong 12:41:28 ASau: Oh, you know what it means? 12:43:05 fantastic_dan [n=fantasti@ip-66-9-231-226.autorev.intellispace.net] has joined #scheme 12:43:39 Sure, I know what "signal 6" means. 12:44:09 I could tell that even without reading backtrace. 12:46:28 -!- underspecified [n=eric@isa7-dhcp-116-127.naist.jp] has quit [] 12:46:35 Yes well... I just say what I'm told. I don't know how the OS manages to make an abort signal uncatchable. 12:48:02 JFYI 12:48:11 Value Name Default Action Description 12:48:11 6 SIGABRT create core image abort(3) call (formerly SIGIOT) 12:48:11 9 SIGKILL terminate process kill program (cannot be caught 12:48:11 or ignored) 12:48:30 Compare the two and find differences. 12:48:55 man 7 signal 12:48:57 I know what signal 6 is. 12:48:58 Mr-Cat [n=Miranda@hermes.lanit.ru] has joined #scheme 12:49:40 I always find it amusing that Linux has no "out of memory" signal. Wouldn't that be the first thing they'd think of back then? 12:50:13 Why do you need such signal? 12:50:27 yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 12:50:28 All relevant functions and syscalls return error code. 12:51:01 so the OS doesn't have to send an abort that is mysteriously un-catchable? ._. It just seems unclear to me. 12:51:21 Plus signals are ideal for whole process error conditions like that. 12:51:44 It's not like one system call would fail, then another would randomly succeed. No memory is no memory. 12:53:20 And really some signals don't make much sense to me at all. I mean floating point exception? Shouldn't that just return an error, not raise a signal? 12:54:49 That's because you don't understand hardware and don't know history behind it. 12:54:53 if you were writing C code, and you typed "x / y", that could raise such an exception ... but if "it" returned an error, what would "it" return the error _to_? There's no obvious function call there. 12:56:30 offby1: there's a way to handle it gracefully. 12:56:39 Cf. NaN. 12:58:11 true, true 12:59:04 -!- mornfall [n=mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit ["the old ways are lost"] 12:59:16 Schemers with their numeric towers and arbitrary-size integers seem to miss C ints and doubles :) 13:03:33 synx: I think the point that 1)signals don't allow to identify the place, where the error has occured as precisely as returned error codes do 2)Signals mostly represent inherentyly asynchronous events (like Control-C), whille OOM exception is synchronous (In a way that it responds to a certain action in your program). 13:04:04 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:04:07 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 13:04:54 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:06:23 mornfall [n=mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #scheme 13:06:32 annodomini_ [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:09:15 Floating point exceptions are extremely synchronous. 13:10:01 offby1: Well, by return an error I mean "raise an exception". 13:10:47 I understand the history of such things. But that doesn't make them any less laughable. 13:11:27 Yes, but usually numeric expressions are written without any error checks. It would be impractical to make a programmer check all the intermediate values in complex numeric expressions. 13:11:55 At least in C. 13:15:15 -!- annodomini_ [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 13:15:45 langmartin [n=user@75.148.111.133] has joined #scheme 13:16:09 So have it set errno then. I dunno. 13:16:48 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-138-129.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Dead socket] 13:17:01 Mr-Cat: that's not about programmers or languages. 13:17:07 It's all about hardware. 13:17:36 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-138-129.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 13:17:44 synx: errno only makes sense in the context of libc 13:18:05 well some error bit somewhere. Just a signal seems weird. 13:18:31 ASau: I think synx takes the possibility hardware re-design into consideration :) 13:18:40 You have to jump completely out of the context in which it occurred, magically come up with the reason for it going wrong, and then just die ungracefully because you can't get back. 13:19:23 -!- edw [n=edw@c-76-99-36-31.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [] 13:19:38 ASau: Using asynchronous mechanism to signal synchronous errors is weird 13:20:00 Mr-Cat: using asynchronous mechanism is weird any way. 13:20:07 System memory exhaustion is synchronous? 13:20:09 I don't usually get along with hardware in general... 13:20:54 You're going far away form original context. 13:21:34 When system is out of memory, it doesn't raise SIGABRT. 13:21:38 It kills. 13:21:53 boom, headshot! 13:21:54 Riastradh: We are talking about signaling out-of-memory in malloc. I think, the answer would be `yes' in this particular case 13:21:59 No, we're not. 13:22:02 It always aborted for me. 13:22:04 Or... 13:22:16 Actually it always just hung my system, until I implemented ulimits. 13:22:18 That or I missed some context. 13:22:28 rlimits whatever 13:22:32 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:22:32 I believe synx was talking about Linux's oom-killer. 13:22:52 Ah, maybe. Then, I am wrong. 13:23:14 I think ASau was claiming said oom-killer uses the kill signal. 13:23:36 I don't really know what it uses. 13:23:48 repror___ [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 13:24:24 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:24:43 AFAIR, my processes receive SIGKILL when they run out of resources. 13:25:14 ought to be easy enough to test. 13:27:13 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@142.204.16.10] has joined #scheme 13:30:48 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:37:29 annodomini [n=lambda@64.30.3.122] has joined #scheme 13:39:29 tonyg [n=tonyg@host226.lshift.net] has joined #scheme 13:46:01 underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 13:46:47 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@142.204.16.10] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:46:47 -!- minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:46:47 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:46:47 -!- rodge [n=roderic@129.10.116.123] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:46:47 -!- clog [i=nef@bespin.org] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:47:45 a-s [n=user@85.9.55.98] has joined #scheme 13:48:08 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 13:48:32 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 13:49:03 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@142.204.16.10] has joined #scheme 13:49:03 minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 13:49:03 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #scheme 13:49:03 rodge [n=roderic@129.10.116.123] has joined #scheme 13:49:03 clog [i=nef@bespin.org] has joined #scheme 14:02:21 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@142.204.16.10] has quit [No route to host] 14:02:30 annodomini [n=lambda@130.189.179.215] has joined #scheme 14:02:43 jberg [n=johan@229.84-48-210.nextgentel.com] has joined #scheme 14:04:11 not_noamsml [n=quassel@adsl-75-45-249-116.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 14:05:18 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has joined #scheme 14:13:15 so um... I'm trying to generate `(a ,b ,c) from 3 variables containing symbols 'a, 'b and 'c. 14:13:21 `(quasiquote ,name (unquote ,to) (unquote ,from)) predictably doesn't do that. How do you put quasiquotes inside a quasiquote? ._. 14:14:48 -!- rodge [n=roderic@129.10.116.123] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 14:14:48 -!- clog [i=nef@bespin.org] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 14:14:48 -!- minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 14:14:48 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 14:15:03 minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 14:15:03 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #scheme 14:15:03 rodge [n=roderic@129.10.116.123] has joined #scheme 14:15:03 clog [i=nef@bespin.org] has joined #scheme 14:17:14 yikes 14:17:19 very carefully. 14:17:23 hold on... (quasiquote 1 2 3) gives me a syntax error? 14:17:31 rudybot: eval (quasiquote 1 2 3) 14:17:31 *offby1: your scheme sandbox is ready 14:17:31 *offby1: error: eval:1:0: quasiquote: bad syntax in: (quasiquote 1 2 3) 14:17:39 synx: naw, you're imagining things 14:18:00 -!- noamsml [n=quassel@75.46.2.162] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:18:04 I thought it was equivalent to `(1 2 3)! 14:18:12 rudybot: eval `(1 2 3) 14:18:13 synx: your scheme sandbox is ready 14:18:13 synx: ; Value: (1 2 3) 14:18:23 rudybot: eval (let ((var1 'a) (var2 'b) (var3 'c)) `(,var1 ,var2 ,var3)) 14:18:23 *offby1: ; Value: (a b c) 14:18:44 rudybot: eval (let ((var1 'a) (var2 'b) (var3 'c)) `(,var1 (fnord ,var2) ,var3)) 14:18:44 *offby1: ; Value: (a (fnord b) c) 14:18:49 rudybot: eval (let ((var1 'a) (var2 'b) (var3 'c)) `(,var1 (unquote-splicing ,var2) ,var3)) 14:18:49 *offby1: error: eval:1:63: unquote: not in quasiquote in: (unquote var2) 14:18:56 rudybot: eval (let ((var1 'a) (var2 'b) (var3 'c)) `(,var1 ('unquote-splicing ,var2) ,var3)) 14:18:56 *offby1: error: eval:1:37: unquote-splicing: invalid context within quasiquote at: (#) in: (quasiquote ((unquote var1) ((quote unquote-splicing) (unquote var2)) (unquote var3))) 14:18:59 oh I get it. 14:19:03 *offby1* shuddes 14:19:06 shudders 14:19:16 rudybot: eval (quasiquote (1 2 3)) 14:19:16 synx: ; Value: (1 2 3) 14:23:13 rudybot: eval (define sex-machine ( (name to from) (list 'quasiquote (list name (list 'unquote to) (list 'unquote from))))) 14:23:23 rudybot: eval (sex-machine 'a 'b 'c) 14:23:23 synx: ; Value: (quasiquote (a (unquote b) (unquote c))) 14:23:46 hm 14:23:54 which displays as `(a ,b ,c) on my plt, but oh well. 14:24:00 Ragnaroek [i=54a649a2@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-6257f08d9c16bcd5] has joined #scheme 14:25:06 *offby1* gets up 14:25:11 since I feel like being a sex-machine 14:26:44 -!- Mr-Cat [n=Miranda@hermes.lanit.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:27:07 tjafk [n=timj@e176203064.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 14:27:32 -!- Guest35949 [n=m@dslb-088-067-043-018.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:28:25 *gnomon* slides away from offby1 on the bench, there 14:29:10 taste ... a piano ... 14:29:17 can we hit it and quit? 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15:51:50 synx: ``(,,a ,,b ,,c) 15:51:59 rudybot: eval (let ((a 5) (b 3) (c 2)) ``(,,a ,,b ,,c)) 15:52:00 Riastradh: your scheme sandbox is ready 15:52:00 Riastradh: ; Value: (quasiquote ((unquote 5) (unquote 3) (unquote 2))) 15:52:44 Perhaps the streetlamps too 15:54:03 brilliant Riastradh 15:55:05 *offby1* 's eyes cross 15:58:42 bweaver [n=user@c-67-161-236-94.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:00:19 yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 16:02:43 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 16:08:05 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:10:53 vixey [n=yoo@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 16:16:29 -!- mmc [n=mima@gw1.teleca.fi] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:17:05 -!- proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:18:18 -!- ayrnieu [n=julian@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:19:07 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:20:00 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 16:20:55 -!- a-s [n=user@85.9.55.98] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:25:23 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 16:26:01 proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #scheme 16:28:08 -!- ejs [n=eugen@94-248-110-88.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:28:57 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:32:05 error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 16:34:10 -!- halfcore [i=noam@ip136-63-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:35:22 JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182f0b98.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 16:35:34 -!- JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182f0b98.dyn.optonline.net] has left #scheme 16:41:59 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:47:25 -!- kuribas [i=kristof@d54C2AD57.access.telenet.be] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:56:37 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [No route to host] 16:58:56 jonrafkind [n=jon@eng-4-221.hotspot.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 17:00:49 how do you separate the whole and fractional parts out of a real number? 17:01:13 like 3.14159... -> '(3 . 0.14159...) 17:01:14 I usually use a putty knife. 17:01:32 The trick is to use constant, gentle force, applied at just the right angle. 17:02:14 All I can think is to use number->string then split on #rx"\." 17:02:14 and the right angle you can derive from the floating point number 17:02:28 yeah obviously you should use regex for this 17:02:38 but normal people tend to use numerator and denominator 17:02:58 I'd love to use numerator and denominator, but I need the whole and fractional part. 17:03:10 r5rs floor 17:03:11 http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_idx_302 17:03:12 (let ((x (floor y))) (cons x (- y x))) 17:03:13 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/botqph 17:03:14 (exact pi) - 3 17:03:24 OH got it 17:03:44 (define (fractional n) (- n (floor n))) 17:03:55 rudybot: eval (remainder 3.141593 1) 17:03:55 vixey: your r5rs sandbox is ready 17:03:55 vixey: error: remainder: expects type as 1st argument, given: 3.141593; other arguments were: 1 17:04:01 rudybot: eval (remainder 1 3.141593) 17:04:01 vixey: error: remainder: expects type as 2nd argument, given: 3.141593; other arguments were: 1 17:04:18 HAHAHA 17:04:30 rudybot: eval (remainder 1.0 3.141593) 17:04:30 vixey: error: remainder: expects type as 2nd argument, given: 3.141593; other arguments were: 1.0 17:04:31 you need mod or mod0 as in r6rs :) 17:04:35 halfcore [i=support@ip136-63-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #scheme 17:04:48 i had the same a few eeks back, gave up 17:04:59 rudybot: eval (remainder -13 -4.0) 17:04:59 vixey: ; Value: -1.0 17:05:03 rudybot: eval (remainder -13 -4.1) 17:05:03 vixey: error: remainder: expects type as 2nd argument, given: -4.1; other arguments were: -13 17:05:10 integers are fine 17:05:42 think outside the box :p 17:05:53 hm... but I need to know the amount of digits in the fractional part... 17:06:30 then you need to deconstruct the number 17:06:44 scheme reals have no concept of trailing zeroes, do they? 17:07:11 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 17:07:17 if you get the numerator and denominator you could derive that for the ieee spec 17:07:23 either they're exact with infinite zeroes, or inexact, and stuffed into a 32 bit word. 17:07:45 no, the numbers arent 0 perserving, well they can be in R6RS, but not required as far as I know 17:07:59 synx, the "number of digits" of a number is a propert of the base used to express the number, not the value of the number. 17:08:11 If you want to run string queries on a number, convert it to a string. 17:08:18 ...or write an ugly hack. That works too. 17:08:25 gnomon: well, understood! but in a specific base then. 17:08:27 thanks gnomon, only used for representation 17:08:51 *gnomon* quietly corrects "propert" to "property" 17:10:33 athos [n=philipp@p54B85166.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 17:10:56 I'm trying to write a converter between scheme reals and postgresql numerics. They're 16 bit digits of base 10000 without trailing zeroes, a scale to mark where the decimal point is, and a sign bit. Trouble is... 17:11:21 They also have a weight argument, which tells you how many trailing zeroes to add on, if any. 17:11:35 that's sounds ridiculous 17:11:37 you should use regex 17:11:55 doesn't postgresql have a better interface? 17:12:20 not accurately, no. :/ 17:15:11 synx: "when in doubt, hardcode." 17:15:37 16 bits isn't much. 17:15:41 If I was using the text protocol it'd be (format "~a::numeric(~a,~a)" (number->string n) (magically-calculate-weight n) (number-of-decimal-digits-past-radix n)) 17:15:47 Same thing as binary really. 17:16:17 I doubt you're correct in your observations though. 17:16:18 Judofyr [n=Judofyr@c349BBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has joined #scheme 17:16:38 (define (postgresql-numeric->number val) (cond ((= val "1.0") 1.0) ((= val "2.0") 2.0) ...)) 17:16:39 How exactly is it called in pg? 17:16:52 *gnomon* hides 17:17:07 saccade [n=saccade@BRAIN-AND-COG-THREE-TWELVE.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 17:17:13 called, ASau? 17:17:45 saccade_ [n=saccade_@COMBINATOR.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 17:18:09 "smallint" is definitly C "short". 17:18:38 For postgresql, I build up a byte string of the encoding expected, then bind it to a prepared statement using libpq 17:18:52 I understand that part. 17:18:59 I've written enough code for libpq. 17:19:09 So encoding the 'numeric' type is extremely difficult. 17:19:34 Did you read libpq source? 17:19:39 But my biggest problem is the weight. I could just assume it's really high? 17:19:57 I read the backend source... 17:20:20 PG version and file name, please? 17:20:52 uh, the latest, and src/backend/utils/adt/* 17:20:57 also src/backend/libpq/* 17:21:17 BTW, if this is practical task, why not convert it from string in SQL statement? 17:21:20 Why does that matter though? They don't help me find the weight of a number. 17:21:52 Because I can't be sure of that string's format. It's not like they use scheme_format to create them. :p 17:22:13 Converting up to 10 statements isn't big deal... 17:22:40 it might become the wrong number though. 17:23:27 "cast ($n as timestamp with time zone)" 17:23:45 In your case, "cast ($n as numeric)" 17:24:01 cast? 17:24:37 anyway (string->number "15::numeric(8,6)") fails, last I checked. 17:30:05 $ csi -e '(display (string->number "'$(psql -q -t -P 'pager=off' -P 'format=unaligned' -c 'select 15::numeric(8,6);')'"))' 17:30:05 15.0$ 17:30:08 Sorry??? 17:30:13 Works for me. 17:31:38 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@151.204.133.189] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:32:02 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-151-205-125-240.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 17:33:06 synx: care to elaborate what exactly you're trying to do? 17:33:39 geckosenator [n=sean@71.237.94.78] has joined #scheme 17:35:29 -!- saccade [n=saccade@BRAIN-AND-COG-THREE-TWELVE.MIT.EDU] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:35:29 -!- specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:35:29 -!- CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-75-68-42-94.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:35:29 -!- rmrfchik [n=paul@62.117.74.154] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 17:35:59 saccade [n=saccade@BRAIN-AND-COG-THREE-TWELVE.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 17:35:59 specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 17:35:59 rmrfchik [n=paul@62.117.74.154] has joined #scheme 17:36:56 I'm trying to write a postgresql module for plt scheme. 17:37:09 Ah. 17:37:15 That's way more complex. 17:38:49 Why don't you pass parameters as text strings? 17:39:19 You'll save yourself from doing awful data marshalling. 17:40:44 Because transmitting as byte strings, I can't be sure that they'll be in an encoding that postgresql understands. 17:41:07 I mean there is PQescapeByteA but... 17:42:04 You have to do data marshalling either way. Just with text strings it's not well defined. 17:42:05 I don't understand your concerns. 17:42:23 Text strings are easier to do in Scheme. 17:42:28 At any rate, I think I got it. 17:42:33 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:42:35 reprore__ [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 17:42:48 + you don't have to deal with endianness. 17:43:01 You have to do number->string to get the decimal representation, since that's what they want their weight and scale in. Then just all the digits is the weight, and the ones right of the radix is the scale. 17:43:16 postgresql's binary interface is network byte ordered. 17:44:00 And text interface is in natural byte order. 17:44:09 Which is the same across platforms. 17:44:10 It's possible to do things like "select 15::numeric(10,6)" but it's identical in all respects to a weight of 8 and 6. 17:44:21 Uh, natural byte order...? 17:44:47 First bytes in a string come first. 17:44:55 The text interface doesn't even use byte ordered integers. It's just 1 byte character encoding of what is hopefully utf-8. 17:45:37 You have to check your database to see if it expects utf-8 or something else, and decode your strings by that encoding before sending them. 17:46:10 Easier than to recode your data. 17:46:14 And forget about binary encoding. Every binary piece of data must be double allocated in decoded and encoded form, the encoded form being about 3 times the size of the data itself. 17:46:50 Sure it won't make your terminal start flipping out, but it's not very convenient IMO. 17:47:01 I mean come on... escaped _octal_? 17:47:48 In my opinion it is more convenient, since everything is handled in uniform way, 17:48:03 which hardly will ever change. 17:48:47 Pg devs don't declare that they won't change binary interface. 17:48:55 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-75-68-42-94.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:54:11 -!- athos [n=philipp@p54B85166.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 18:02:25 -!- incubot [i=incubot@klutometis.wikitex.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:07:29 incubot [i=incubot@klutometis.wikitex.org] has joined #scheme 18:12:28 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@eng-4-221.hotspot.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:12:59 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 18:15:24 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-244-196-47.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:16:44 -!- Ragnaroek [i=54a649a2@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-6257f08d9c16bcd5] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 18:17:30 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-244-196-47.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 18:21:17 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-244-196-47.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Client Quit] 18:21:37 The stability may be a good argument to use text format. 18:21:52 It's just too tempting not to have to encode binary data though. That's mostly what I'm going to be passing to and from the server. 18:22:05 because binary is so much harder than ASCII 18:23:47 Thrymr [i=54a649a2@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-ebce0fd187444e5f] has joined #scheme 18:26:30 arcfide [n=arcfide@99.137.203.229] has joined #scheme 18:27:17 AllNight^ [n=nobody@ai-core.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 18:30:14 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:33:52 dlt__ [n=dlt@201.80.187.243] has joined #scheme 18:37:01 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-244-196-47.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 18:40:01 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #scheme 18:40:55 how do you put something in the end of a list? 18:41:02 APPEND 18:41:19 <#procedure append> 18:41:38 aha 18:41:41 :-) 18:42:45 (define (tack-onto-end-of-list item lst) (reverse (cons item (reverse lst)))) 18:42:59 (note: do not do that thing, it is stupid) 18:43:21 (define snoc tack-onto-end-of-list) 18:43:31 *Judofyr* likes stupid things 18:44:18 -!- error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:47:01 -!- jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:51:31 -!- dlt____ [n=dlt@201.80.187.243] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:53:34 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:54:56 melgray [n=melgray@70.99.250.82] has joined #scheme 18:55:43 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 19:02:48 *Daemmerung* thinks that stupid is the new smart 19:10:50 saccade__ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-70-132.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 19:11:59 -!- saccade [n=saccade@BRAIN-AND-COG-THREE-TWELVE.MIT.EDU] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:13:02 is there an API-ref somewhere? 19:13:26 *Judofyr* wonders if there is a way to find out if x is in a list 19:14:00 no that's impossible 19:14:10 Google "r5rs.pdf," or read the fine manual for your particular implementation 19:14:18 you have to use a more powerful language such as C# to do that 19:14:46 Vixey lies like a rug. Only Java has the raw powar. 19:14:49 choas [n=lars@p5B0DEA85.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 19:15:48 and im sure you mean J2EE 19:16:06 Oracle edition 19:16:07 *Judofyr* is a pretty lazy schemer... 19:16:36 it's your fear of Code Judo 19:16:36 -!- Thrymr is now known as Ragnaroek 19:16:44 you should apply the problem to the domain, searching is made for databases 19:16:59 JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@pool-72-95-204-183.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 19:17:16 damn, Safari froze when I tried to search r6rs.pdf :-( 19:18:37 www.r6rs.org 19:18:56 r5rs* (and it was *inside* the PDF :-) 19:19:11 okey, I guess memq, memv or member is what I want... 19:19:26 depends what you are searching for 19:19:36 Take a moment and implement each of those procedures yourself. 19:20:00 reference, boolean or symbol, you use memq, and so on 19:20:10 just like eq? 19:20:18 saccade [n=saccade@BRAIN-AND-COG-THREE-TWELVE.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 19:20:49 Daemmerung: I'm going trough The Little Schemer too, but right now I'm trying to solve an assignment my friend got 19:20:55 not solving it for him, though 19:21:44 you are trying to solve it for yourself, but struggling? 19:21:55 *arcfide* wonders who actually wrote mod-lisp.scm in MIT. 19:22:16 Probably Chris Hanson. 19:22:24 leppie: yep 19:22:42 but don't worry, I'll sort it out myself :-) 19:22:51 I think they call it "learning" 19:23:12 :) 19:23:25 I'm having trouble deciding whether the code is good, for some reason I don't understand, or just fairly hard to follow and quite...obtuse. 19:23:37 read r5rs, wont take long, you can reference it then 19:24:20 What about it do you find obtuse or hard to follow? 19:24:25 barney [n=bernhard@p549A01FC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 19:25:09 Riastradh: Well, take READ-REQUEST as an example. 19:26:34 There seems to be little effort at breaking the actual process into understandable, natural chunks. The whole thing is done in one rather big procedure. 19:27:18 -!- AllNight^ is now known as AllNight^afk 19:27:20 There are two different loops going on in the procedure, and no real division of which part of the code is doing what. 19:27:30 i dont find anything wrong with it, looks like my code :) 19:27:50 -!- saccade__ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-70-132.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:27:53 Even taking out the debuging parts, it doesn't feel very nice to me, and it seems hard to follow. 19:28:21 The first loop you can just put in a separate procedure if you like; similarly, you can put the part of that loop that processes the line in its own procedure. The second loop you can also put into its own procedure. 19:28:25 wingo-tp [n=wingo@125.Red-83-32-65.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 19:28:34 Right. 19:28:49 Why is it thrown into one big procedure? It seems like that just makes it hard to follow and understand. 19:29:09 *Riastradh* shrugs. 19:29:24 *leppie* hides his code from arcfide :) 19:29:26 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 19:29:36 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 19:29:46 maybe its ported 19:29:49 It is reasonably separable. I'd have separated it into multiple procedures, but at least that is a mechanical process the way it is written; the procedure's parts are not deeply interconnected and hard to separate. 19:29:55 I'm going to eat lunch now. 19:29:59 its seems to follow a procedural style 19:31:15 Riastradh: Enjoy, Riastradh. 19:31:19 -!- JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@pool-72-95-204-183.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has left #scheme 19:31:42 leppie: If that's what your code looks like, yeah, don't let me see it. ;-) 19:32:34 Without the debugging parts in there, my implementation of that comes to about nine procedures. 19:32:55 Well, I added a bit more, so that's not strictly accurate. 19:32:58 my expt proc I wrote (well just ported from my C# version) is 50 lines long, because of all the corner cases :| 19:33:45 But, that's another point. In the code, the parsing of POST parameters is done later, after a request is parsed and returned. It seems like a better idea to parse them as it reads them, so that no further parsing of the request has to happen after the READ-REQUEST call is finished. 19:33:56 and that excludes refactoring of duplicates 19:34:06 leppie: Bad, bad Schemer. 19:35:00 im still a young schemer, I still learn, I wrote 800 lines in the last 4 days :) 19:35:11 -!- sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-81-173-129-138.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 19:35:20 -!- reprore__ [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [No route to host] 19:35:42 i'll give it a run over later when I am bored 19:36:27 Also, the code in mod-lisp.scm is littered with assignments. That's fine if they want a side-effect based interface for things when they actually use it, but why litter the code with a bunch of unnecessary assignments when it is rather easy to collect the values beforehand and just create the record without ever having to assign anything? 19:36:54 Which is why I want to know if I am missing something to the design of this code. 19:37:07 like I said, it looks similar to code ported from a procedural language 19:37:38 Well, humph. I ported code from Python and it doesn't look like this. 19:38:19 im thinking more like C 19:38:32 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-138-129.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:38:35 Not that I am really complaining in a deeply cynical way here, since the code seems to work just fine, except for some minor bugs here and there, but I'm just remarking on what the code appears to be when I judge it against the normal standards to which I have grown accustomed. 19:38:36 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:40:05 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 19:42:31 -!- saccade [n=saccade@BRAIN-AND-COG-THREE-TWELVE.MIT.EDU] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:42:54 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #scheme 19:47:55 -!- MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@213.171.48.239] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:49:09 reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 19:53:19 -!- Ragnaroek [i=54a649a2@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-ebce0fd187444e5f] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 19:54:14 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 20:04:24 -!- reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:04:30 arcfide, let me know of any bugs. There are four assignments in the whole file, all of intentionally global or dynamically bound resources. 20:07:35 Riastradh: I just don't like the way you SET-STATUS-HEADER and the like. It seems like they are parameters, but there are too many of them. 20:07:39 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:07:57 Riastradh: When I used it, I found one or two bugs that I patched and sent to Chris. These have already been incorporated into the tree. 20:08:15 OK. 20:09:08 Anyways, once I have written my own version of this stuff, which should remain interface compatible with the MIT version, I'll be able to say more for sure whether I am just naive or whether there is a way to do it that I like better. 20:09:42 At any rate, I'm off. Everyone have a good time. 20:10:17 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@99.137.203.229] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:11:27 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:11:43 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 20:11:57 ssh root@10.249.0.100 20:12:00 oops 20:12:02 No! 20:12:26 heh. you don't want to know 20:12:39 Never use root! 20:15:35 -!- barney [n=bernhard@p549A01FC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:16:54 -!- geckosenator [n=sean@71.237.94.78] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:17:31 Judofyr: "lazy" isn't about Scheme. 20:17:38 Judofyr: "lazy" is about Haskell. 20:17:55 jlongster: why? 20:18:00 ASau: I'm lazy in the way I'm asking you guys, instead of Googling :P 20:18:49 ASau: I was being facetious. 20:20:03 Nichibutsu [n=myfabse@wikipedia/Track-n-Field] has joined #scheme 20:21:54 Haskell is not necessarily lazy, ASau. Its evaluation model is non-strict. Implementations are free to choose any strategy they like, one of which is laziness. 20:22:38 ejs [n=eugen@94-248-19-10.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #scheme 20:23:03 ayrnieu [n=julian@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:24:23 -!- vixey [n=yoo@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit ["Quitting!"] 20:24:59 Nuts. proq already changed his password. 20:25:02 *Daemmerung* sulks 20:25:10 heh. what password? 20:25:13 "oops" 20:26:11 *proq* wonders how daemmerung got to 10.249.0.100 20:26:35 *Daemmerung* hacks 127.0.0.1 with a quickness 20:27:15 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 20:34:33 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:34:58 jao [n=jao@207.Red-83-37-137.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 20:35:04 -!- jah [n=jah@144.56.76-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:40:44 Arelius [n=Indy@209.77.67.98] has joined #scheme 20:56:40 jonrafkind [n=jon@204.99.164.221] has joined #scheme 21:00:03 -!- langmartin [n=user@75.148.111.133] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:00:35 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B054121.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 21:06:18 -!- mbishop_ is now known as mbishop 21:16:40 -!- dlt__ [n=dlt@201.80.187.243] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:24:37 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-81-173-129-138.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 21:26:40 -!- ayrnieu [n=julian@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:27:03 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@204.99.164.221] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:28:21 meanburrito920_ [n=John@adsl-76-222-235-110.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 21:30:15 buggarage [n=user@xdsl-81-173-129-138.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 21:31:45 ayrnieu [n=julian@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:33:16 -!- raikov [n=igr@82-41-19-217.cable.ubr03.sgyl.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:34:19 SweetwaterDixon [n=user@210.48.104.34] has joined #scheme 21:36:28 -!- buggarage [n=user@xdsl-81-173-129-138.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:37:10 -!- AllNight^afk is now known as EnglishGent 21:37:19 -!- EnglishGent is now known as AllNight 21:38:31 -!- ejs [n=eugen@94-248-19-10.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:45:32 MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has joined #scheme 21:45:45 -!- Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-203-250.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:45:53 -!- davidad1 [n=me@dhcp-17-162.media.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:46:32 Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-203-250.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 21:48:14 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:54:51 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:58:46 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 21:58:51 -!- flazz [n=franco@qubes.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:00:09 leppie: yay! I'm done! 22:00:12 :-) 22:00:33 all passed that's what I like to see 22:00:52 but that was a *crappy* assignment 22:01:17 or, the code which followed with it 22:01:25 flazz [n=franco@qubes.org] has joined #scheme 22:01:34 you never quite knew if you got a node-object or just the node-name 22:01:52 *Judofyr* just implemented BFS, UCS + A* :-) 22:08:15 -!- bweaver [n=user@c-67-161-236-94.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:08:39 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 22:10:08 davidad [n=me@dhcp-18-111-62-90.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 22:11:53 -!- bsmntbombdood [n=gavin@97-118-129-204.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [] 22:12:10 JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@pool-72-95-204-183.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 22:12:10 bsmntbombdood [n=gavin@97-118-129-204.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 22:13:40 a_rock [n=John@adsl-76-222-235-110.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 22:14:24 -!- a_rock [n=John@adsl-76-222-235-110.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:15:53 hey regarding will-executors... is there any reason they can't just run a finalizer? Why would you want to defer that until you check later in your program if there are any wills that need to be executed? 22:16:31 Judofyr: damn that sounds like a lot of work 22:17:00 synx: well, not really 22:17:22 quite fun actually 22:17:31 Oh sure, you made it look easy. 22:17:32 specially when I know I'm 3 years ahead :D 22:18:29 anyway 22:18:35 time to sleep up here in Norway! 22:20:00 *gone* 22:20:42 mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 22:23:42 buggarage [n=user@xdsl-81-173-129-138.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 22:27:43 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:28:05 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 22:30:56 -!- davidad [n=me@dhcp-18-111-62-90.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:32:48 -!- choas [n=lars@p5B0DEA85.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 22:35:09 JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182f0b98.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 22:35:20 -!- JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182f0b98.dyn.optonline.net] has left #scheme 22:38:23 -!- buggarage [n=user@xdsl-81-173-129-138.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:39:38 buggarage [n=user@xdsl-81-173-129-138.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 22:42:43 -!- buggarage [n=user@xdsl-81-173-129-138.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:42:53 -!- JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@pool-72-95-204-183.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:43:56 buggarage [n=user@xdsl-81-173-129-138.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 22:49:08 -!- Guest64436 [n=deep@li61-146.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:50:00 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 22:51:27 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 22:51:29 -!- Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-203-250.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 22:52:33 Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-203-250.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 22:52:51 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-235-227.dsl.look.ca] has joined #scheme 22:55:34 kuribas [i=kristof@d54C2AFA3.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 23:03:56 -!- ayrnieu [n=julian@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:04:33 -!- SweetwaterDixon [n=user@210.48.104.34] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:07:10 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B054121.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:14:36 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:21:56 synx: consider the case where two finalizers need to run in a particular order, or one has a dependency on another. 23:22:01 gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has joined #scheme 23:23:54 -!- jlongster [n=user@75.148.111.133] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:24:13 I tend to solve that problem Daemmerung by pairing the finalizing object with its dependancy in a dependancy struct thing. So the dependancy is only collected once all structs are garbage collected. 23:24:52 sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-155-159.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 23:25:13 buggarag` [n=user@xdsl-87-78-155-159.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 23:25:34 -!- buggarag` [n=user@xdsl-87-78-155-159.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:25:56 -!- sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-155-159.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 23:26:44 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-81-173-129-138.netcologne.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:29:32 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-155-159.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 23:32:10 buggarag` [n=user@xdsl-87-78-155-159.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 23:33:10 -!- buggarag` [n=user@xdsl-87-78-155-159.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:34:00 buggarag` [n=user@xdsl-87-78-155-159.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 23:35:07 -!- buggarage [n=user@xdsl-81-173-129-138.netcologne.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:35:15 -!- buggarag` [n=user@xdsl-87-78-155-159.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:36:00 buggarage [n=user@xdsl-87-78-155-159.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 23:40:50 -!- alaricsp [n=alaricsp@217.205.201.45] has quit [] 23:47:22 -!- AllNight is now known as EnglishGent^afk 23:49:16 aaco_ [n=aaco@unaffiliated/aaco] has joined #scheme 23:49:30 davidad [n=me@dhcp-18-111-5-188.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 23:50:12 -!- aaco [n=aaco@unaffiliated/aaco] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:50:16 -!- aaco_ is now known as aaco 23:50:46 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-235-227.dsl.look.ca] has quit [] 23:51:07 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-235-227.dsl.look.ca] has joined #scheme 23:53:03 -!- kuribas [i=kristof@d54C2AFA3.access.telenet.be] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:56:14 -!- s76__ [n=todos@201-58-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 23:56:36 s76__ [n=todos@52-80-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme