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00:59:08 <ayrnieu> eval: (let ((balance 1)) (define (deposit n) (set! balance (+ balance n))) (define (withdraw n) (set! balance (- balance n)))) (withdraw 1000)
00:59:13 <ayrnieu> rudybot: eval: (let ((balance 1)) (define (deposit n) (set! balance (+ balance n))) (define (withdraw n) (set! balance (- balance n)))) (withdraw 1000)
00:59:13 <rudybot> ayrnieu: eh?  Try "rudybot: help".
00:59:17 <ayrnieu> rudybot: eval (let ((balance 1)) (define (deposit n) (set! balance (+ balance n))) (define (withdraw n) (set! balance (- balance n)))) (withdraw 1000)
00:59:17 <rudybot> ayrnieu: your sandbox is ready
00:59:18 <rudybot> ayrnieu: error: eval:1:0: begin (possibly implicit): no expression after a sequence of internal definitions in: ((define (deposit n) (set! balance (+ balance n))) (define (withdraw n) (set! balance (- balance n))))
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01:01:36 <offby1> rudybot: eval (let ((balance 1)) (define (deposit n) (set! balance (+ balance n))) (define (withdraw n) (set! balance (- balance n))) (values deposit withdraw))
01:01:36 <rudybot> *offby1: ; Value: #<procedure:deposit>
01:01:37 <rudybot> *offby1: ; Value#2: #<procedure:withdraw>
01:02:05 <offby1> ayrnieu: rudybot runs code in an environment that's subtly different from the top level.
01:03:12 <ayrnieu> that isn't that normal scheme behavior?  Well, I'll check in a minute.
01:04:18 <offby1> it depends on the Scheme :-|
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01:05:59 <ayrnieu> yeah, scheme exhibits the undesired behavior.
01:06:09 <ayrnieu> s/scheme/chicken/
01:06:24 <offby1> (define-values (deposit withdraw balance) (let ((balance 1)) (values (lambda (n) (set! balance (+ balance n))) (lambda (n)  (set! balance (- balance n))) (lambda () balance))))
01:06:30 <offby1> rudybot: eval (deposit 99)
01:06:30 <rudybot> *offby1: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: deposit in module: 'program
01:06:33 <offby1> *sigh*
01:06:50 <offby1> rudybot: eval (define-values (deposit withdraw balance) (let ((balance 1)) (values (lambda (n) (set! balance (+ balance n))) (lambda (n)  (set! balance (- balance n))) (lambda () balance))))
01:06:53 <offby1> rudybot: eval (deposit 99)
01:06:57 <offby1> rudybot: eval (balance)
01:06:57 <rudybot> *offby1: ; Value: 100
01:07:04 <offby1> rudybot: eval (withdraw (expt 2 100))
01:07:06 <offby1> rudybot: eval (balance)
01:07:07 <rudybot> *offby1: ; Value: -1267650600228229401496703205276
01:07:11 *offby1* cackles evilly
01:07:14 <offby1> deficit financing
01:08:28 <ayrnieu> (chicken also has the most attractive ascii art I've ever seen)
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01:12:10 <duncanm> dum de dum
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01:26:46 <offby1> ho de do
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04:16:25 <bitweiler> Riastradh: I get you that info as soon as I finish heater setup
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05:22:50 <masquerade_> Anyone know if there's a way to silence the output of a command in scheme (or mzscheme if its implementation dependent). Basically, I'm running timing on some functions that can put out a few thousand lines of output, and all I'd like to see is the output of time/time-apply
05:23:50 <aspect> with-output-something
05:24:10 <aspect> I'm not sure what the something is, but if you search the documentation that might take you somewhere
05:25:44 <eli> masquerade_: (void (time (foo)))
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05:26:13 <eli> masquerade_: Assuming that the problem is the automatic printing of values.
05:26:36 <ayrnieu> Schemers don't die, (void (display "you just can't see their output."))
05:26:39 <bsmntbombdood> > /dev/null
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05:26:52 <offby1> masquerade_: parametrize (current-output-port)
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05:26:58 <offby1> rudybot: doc current-output-port
05:26:58 <rudybot> *offby1: http://docs.plt-scheme.org/reference/port-ops.html#(def._((quote._~23~25kernel)._current-output-port))
05:26:59 <masquerade_> eli: that works beautifully
05:27:13 <offby1> oops
05:27:18 <offby1> late to the party again.  Oh well
05:28:07 <eli> offby1: It's the same thing that makes mzscheme -e '(+ 1 2)' work.
05:28:17 MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme
05:28:19 <offby1> hum
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05:37:14 <Daemmerung> rudybot: eval (with-output-to-file "/dev/null" (lambda () (display "Plugh.") (newline) 666))
05:37:15 <rudybot> Daemmerung: your sandbox is ready
05:37:15 <rudybot> Daemmerung: error: with-output-to-file: `write' access denied for /dev/null
05:37:38 <Daemmerung> Curses, foiled again.
05:40:45 <eli> rudybot: give Daemmerung (open-output-nowhere)
05:40:45 <rudybot> eli: your scheme sandbox is ready
05:40:45 <rudybot> Daemmerung: eli has given you a value, say "rudybot: eval (GRAB)" to get it (case sensitive)
05:45:18 <offby1> (hots-on-for-nowhere)
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05:56:40 <Daemmerung> Holy Toledo.
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06:09:14 <berat> hey
06:10:32 <berat> is eager regime in substitytin kije applicitive order evaluation and is lazy regime  in substitution like normal order evaluation
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07:00:56 <You_Bloody_Asses> Suckin', ya bastards?
07:01:20 <You_Bloody_Asses> Anyone dares to touch me??
07:01:25 <You_Bloody_Asses> I'm the superuser
07:01:36 <You_Bloody_Asses> Noone of you bloody asses can touch me
07:01:44 <You_Bloody_Asses> Even if you do, you get k-lined!!
07:01:54 <You_Bloody_Asses> AHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAH
07:02:08 <You_Bloody_Asses> ANYONE DARES TO COME UP?????
07:02:18 <You_Bloody_Asses> IF SO, GET ON ME!
07:02:42 <You_Bloody_Asses> WHAT THE HECK ARE YA BASTARDS WAITING FOR??
07:02:54 <You_Bloody_Asses> NO ONE?????????
07:08:12 <eli> Is that a Scheme question?
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07:27:45 <Arelius> Haha
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09:04:24 <jyaan> Is there something like != in Scheme?
09:04:38 <jyaan> I know about 'not'
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09:10:38 <jyaan> Should I be using (not (equal? x y)) ?
09:15:02 <ski__> are you comparing numbers ?
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09:16:27 <jyaan> Yea
09:16:36 <jyaan> But I also would like to know about Strings
09:18:18 <ski__> string=?
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09:21:48 <jyaan> Also is there something for exponents I can use?
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09:22:38 <ski__> r5rs expt
09:22:39 <specbot> http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_idx_332
09:22:40 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/5vwxon
09:22:56 <jyaan> Thanks
09:24:22 <jyaan> Is there any way I can temporarily turn off the error numbering in Gambit? It's kind of annoying when I'm experimenting, since I get errors alot
09:25:13 <jyaan> Didn't see anything about it in the man page, though
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14:37:24 <arcfide> Today's Obvious Observation: It's Monday!
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14:40:52 <mib_s6i2bf> hi.. anyone knows a scheme interface for handling aspell rws files for querying?
14:41:14 <arcfide> Eh?
14:43:19 <mib_s6i2bf> say.. to check if a word is an english word.. you know..
14:50:24 <mib_s6i2bf> any interface for other spell checkers even?
14:53:09 <higepon430> Hi folks. Shibuya.lisp Tech Talk #2 was held on last Satuday in Tokyo Japan.
14:53:39 <higepon430> Videos on YouTube are listed here. (Almost in Japanese)
14:53:42 <higepon430> http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=46829C7B0D497284
14:53:54 <higepon430> And my presentation about Mosh Scheme is here. (in English)
14:54:04 <higepon430> http://www.slideshare.net/higepon/toy-to-practical-interpreter-mosh-intenals-shibuyalisp20090228-1083314
14:54:09 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/b5poje
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14:57:20 <Cheshire> shibuya
14:57:36 <Cheshire> yay
14:59:02 <Cheshire> oh hi higepon!
14:59:13 <higepon430> Hi.
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15:20:26 <foof> Congrats to the new Steering Committee!
15:20:31 <arcfide> Indeed.
15:21:01 <arcfide> mib_s6i2bf: You could probably write your own in a few lines with basic spell(1), if all you want is to check if a word is spelled correctly.
15:21:49 <arcfide> You could also check the source code of spell(1) and translate it out, so that you could use the parts you wanted.
15:23:03 <arcfide> foof: How soon do you think they are going to have something for us? ;-)
15:23:32 <foof> Wanna start a pool?
15:23:54 <arcfide> Hah!
15:23:57 <arcfide> Not a chance, pal.
15:23:57 *foof* chooses the March 2010 slot for R7RS
15:24:13 <foof> Oh wait... it's already 2009?
15:24:17 <foof> Make that 2012.
15:24:17 <arcfide> I hope we get something better than just another Revised Report that is no longre really a report.
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15:28:47 <arcfide> Well, I'm off!
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16:12:54 <higepon430> thanks > all
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17:34:09 <tomelam> Hi, all. Hey, Attila! I've got a question at http://paste.lisp.org/display/76369
17:34:25 <tomelam> That's a question for any kind soul here.
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17:35:56 <Cheshire> tomelam, "a macro that creates macros" -- so you are to implement a macro system
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17:36:30 <tomelam> No, I just need one kind of macro, but I need many versions of that macro.
17:36:39 <Cheshire> hm the thing is
17:36:50 <Cheshire> I just looked at your paste and it seems like you could define functions, instead of macros
17:36:55 <Cheshire> like
17:37:19 <Cheshire> (define (@div . elts) (cons div elts))
17:37:33 <Cheshire> oops
17:37:38 <Cheshire> (define (@div tag . elts) (cons div (cons tag elts)))
17:38:01 <Cheshire> there seems to be no reason that @div is a macro
17:38:22 <tomelam> hmm. i think you're right. let me work with that for a few minutes. thanks!
17:38:45 <Cheshire> btw
17:38:49 <tomelam> it might take me awhile. i'm probably going to be slow at this right now.
17:38:49 <Cheshire> you could use a function to make the functions
17:38:58 <Cheshire> so probably this is possible without any macros at all
17:39:01 <Cheshire> like
17:39:05 <Cheshire> (define (make-function specification)
17:39:10 <Cheshire>  (lambda parameters
17:39:13 <Cheshire>   ...))
17:40:09 <Daemmerung> tomelam: generically, a define-syntax form may expand to one or more other define-syntax forms.  So a macro may generate other macros.  I agree with Cheshire's meta-point, nevertheless -- you may not need macros for what you want to do.
17:40:14 <tomelam> yes. i started with the macro to delay an evaluation, but it should have been unnecessary, i think i agree.
17:40:27 <tomelam> Daemmerung,
17:40:48 <tomelam> thank you too.
17:41:14 <tomelam> i'll go away for awhile and study this deeper. i am very glad you both concur.
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18:18:08 <amazon10x> hello
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18:22:37 <amazon10x> so i'm in a programming class and i need to learn scheme. the official book given by the professor is "the little schemer" but the book is terrible. i already can program well in imperative langauges but have done nothing with functional languages
18:23:55 <amazon10x> so basically i'm looking for a book with which i can learn scheme. i saw the on in the topic "The Scheme Programming Language" by Dybvig. since it is in the topic, i suppose it is recommended?
18:25:10 <Cowmoo`> I'm curious why you find The Little Schemer terrible?
18:25:20 <Cowmoo`> (I've never read it, only peeked)
18:25:56 <ecraven> amazon10x: you might want to read SICP (topic too)
18:26:05 <ecraven> though it is primarily about programming, not Scheme
18:26:30 <Cowmoo`> it's quite a slog though for someone who wants to learn scheme quicly
18:26:45 <ecraven> yes, but it *will* make you a better programmer :)
18:27:06 <Cowmoo`> depends no? if he has limited time then he might not get much if anything out of it, excpet fursrtation
18:27:17 <Cowmoo`> amazon10x: try www.htdp.org
18:27:40 <synx> I didn't find SICP all that enlightening, but that's just me.
18:27:56 <Cowmoo`> I quite liked it
18:28:16 <Cowmoo`> although by now forgot nearly everything I learned :'(
18:28:39 <Cowmoo`> chapters 3 and 4 (though I stopped mid-4) I liked
18:28:53 <synx> It has a lot of circular reasoning...
18:29:14 <synx> You always sound wise when you get to design the problems you then solve. :>
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18:30:07 <Cowmoo`> how do you mean
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18:31:10 <klutometis> incubot: it turns out that mary poppins is a pagan demi-god; and it's a shame andrews and van dyke didn't people the earth
18:31:14 <incubot> You might also like Andrews Liver Salts
18:31:46 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme
18:32:38 <ecraven> what Scheme's can be compiled for ARM processors?
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18:35:11 <synx> Cowmoo`: Like if for instance...hm...
18:35:26 <amazon10x> oh hey guys. just looked back here.
18:36:09 <amazon10x> as for not liking the little schemer: so far it seems like the way they teach is to spend about two pages giving examples of some construct being used. and as you go along you're supposed to guess what is happening. then they give you a very sketchy definition of it
18:36:27 <amazon10x> it has a very very low information:word ratio
18:36:57 <ayrnieu> it's a small book that teaches only one thing, but I wouldn't recommend any other book for that.
18:37:16 <Cowmoo`> amazon10x: give htdp a go
18:37:19 <amazon10x> i've heard of sicp but i've always thought of it as a book that teaches you to program. i really just need to learn scheme. but, the fact that i've never used a functional language might mean that i should get sicp
18:37:25 <amazon10x> alright, looking at that now cow	
18:37:38 <ayrnieu> amazon - if you just need to learn scheme, use Teach Yourself Scheme in Fixnum Days.
18:39:22 <amazon10x> hmm, that looks good too ayrnieu
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18:40:30 <amazon10x> i just read a comment somwhere that that hasn't been updated for pplt scheme 4 though. does that matter?
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18:40:52 <amazon10x> plt*
18:41:01 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["¬"]
18:41:06 <ayrnieu> yes, tysifd will not teach you the latest bastardization of scheme.
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18:41:27 <ayrnieu> you might read that and then just read R6RS.
18:41:46 <amazon10x> http://docs.plt-scheme.org/r6rs/index.html
18:41:48 <amazon10x> that's r6rs?
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18:42:55 <ayrnieu> http://www.r6rs.org
18:44:34 <synx> Cowmoo`: It's like if you told a student to solve "y/dx + (x*dy)/dx^2 + (2*dy)/dx^2 + (x*d^2y)/dx^4 = 3" where (1,6) is a point in y, and (3,6) is a point in y'.
18:44:56 <synx> Cowmoo`: And *obviously* the answer is the line y = 6x
18:45:31 <Cowmoo`> synx: your analogy is lost on me, it's been years since I took diffeq :)
18:45:36 <synx> Cowmoo`: But to teach the student the horrors of differential equations you mangled it all up, and worked backwards in non-reversible steps in order to construct the problem you gave them.
18:46:03 <leppie> Cowmoo`: I think the point was that answer did not lie in that equation
18:46:12 <Cowmoo`> oh oh
18:46:28 <leppie> or maybe I understood wrong
18:46:31 <synx> I'm just saying that once the student saw the solution, they'd think you were hot stuff. But it doesn't take a brainiac to create a diffeq problem, just one to solve it.
18:47:05 <leppie> oh, I thought the answer could be derived for the second part alone
18:47:13 <leppie> s/for/from
18:47:19 <synx> well I'm not a brainiac so maybe I screwed up making the problem. :p It's supposed to solve as y=6x ...
18:47:43 <synx> I even included a point on the function and its *cough* derivative, which should be sufficient...
18:49:13 <synx> Just take xy=6x^2, double differentiate both sides then divide by dx^2 :>
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19:14:54 <melgray> :)
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20:22:24 <Daemmerung> amazon10x: you should go with the flow and work through /The Little Schemer/.  It is attempting to inculcate in you habits of thought directly contrary to your imperative language experience.  It is strength training for an area in which you currently are weak.
20:23:15 <Daemmerung> SICP is a great book, but reading it to learn Scheme is like reading the KJV Bible to learn English.
20:24:52 <gnomon> Um.
20:25:35 <amazon10x> Daemmerung: i was thinking maybe i should stick with TLS because of that but it is so painful. maybe i'll stick it out for a few more chapters and see what happens
20:26:13 <^self> i didn't like the teaching style of TLS
20:26:38 <Daemmerung> Yeah, I feel your pain.  You could try Dybvig's /The Scheme Programming Language/ for a more straightforward "first this, then this" breakdown of Scheme.  It is reasonably complete.
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20:27:06 <Daemmerung> But I would encourage you to persevere through a few more chapters.
20:27:42 <^self> it took a couple of tries, but in the end i did finish TLS.  i don't remember if i finished TSS, though.
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20:28:19 <samth> eli: are you around?
20:28:23 <samth> rudybot: seen eli
20:28:24 <rudybot> samth: eli was seen in/on #scheme fourteen hours, forty-seven minutes ago, saying "rudybot: give Daemmerung (open-output-nowhere)", and then eli was seen in/on #scheme thirteen hours, twenty minutes ago, saying "Is that a Scheme question?"
20:31:35 <ayrnieu> Is 'Is that a Scheme question?' a scheme question?  Hm?
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20:52:25 <arcfide> Hello all.
20:52:46 <gnomon> Please stand on your head for about an hour, arcfide.
20:52:54 <arcfide> Har.
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20:53:29 <sjamaan> :)
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21:12:06 <arcfide> Riastradh: as a note, some parscheme documentation would be really cool.
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21:15:56 <Riastradh> Is <http://paste.lisp.org/display/45868> helpful?
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21:17:26 <arcfide> Ello...
21:17:27 *arcfide* reads.
21:17:35 <Riastradh> (Extending the example to include both left-associative and right-associative operators is left as an exercise for the reader.)
21:18:06 <arcfide> Well, SPARQL has an LL(1) BNF grammar that I hope to translate. I guess we'll see if this is sufficient.
21:18:15 <arcfide> You said that there were issues with tokenization?
21:18:23 <Riastradh> I don't think that parscheme has substantially changed since I wrote that.
21:18:31 <Riastradh> Parscheme does not tokenize.
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21:19:02 <arcfide> I guess I don't understand enough of parscheme to understand what you do other than tokenize (I always though tokenization was the elementary first step in something like this.)
21:19:20 <Riastradh> You have a stream of characters as input.
21:19:43 <Riastradh> The grammar is written under the assumption that the input is a stream of tokens.
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21:21:23 <arcfide> Shouldn't it be easy to handle a stream of tokens then?
21:21:47 <Riastradh> Yes.  What parscheme doesn't help with is turning a stream of characters (or rather, a stream of text) into a stream of tokens.
21:22:07 <arcfide> Oh, right, I assumed I would have to write the procedures which turned this stuff into tokens.
21:22:37 <arcfide> But if I give it a stream of tokens, then parscheme can handle that easily enough, right?
21:22:41 <Riastradh> Yes.
21:22:47 <arcfide> Okay.
21:22:56 <Riastradh> You will just not use TEXT-PARSER-COMBINATORS.
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21:23:13 <arcfide> text-parser-combinators is an extension of parser-combinators that assumes that the tokens are characters, then?
21:23:25 <Riastradh> Yes.
21:23:32 <arcfide> Alright, makes more sense now. :-)
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21:29:13 <arcfide> These PARSER:---- procedures return <parser>s?
21:29:27 <Riastradh> Yes.
21:29:43 <arcfide> I see where the name combinators comes into play.
21:30:25 <arcfide> So, I assume that at some point one has to write their own parsers, but of what form is a parser?
21:30:46 <Riastradh> Generally you don't.  The combinators provided should suffice.
21:30:52 <arcfide> I see.
21:31:33 <Riastradh> Do you have a problem that you think is not readily solvable by the combinators provided?
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21:32:01 <arcfide> No, I'm just trying to go through and understand how this all goes. Eventually, when I write my parser, I'll know if these suffice or not. ;-)
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21:36:47 <arcfide> Riastradh: So your example seems to map pretty closely to a normal BNF grammar of the same; is this intentional?
21:37:25 <arcfide> PARSER:CHOICE attempts to parse the first parser given, and if that fails, tries the next, and so forth?
21:37:27 <Riastradh> Yes.
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21:38:48 <Riastradh> I was, by the way, serious about an exercise for the reader of extending the parser to left- and right-associative operators, i.e. adding subtraction and division (and exponentiation if you're ambitious).
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21:39:17 <arcfide> Well, That seems like just the reverse of the left associative version of multiplication, no?
21:39:42 <Riastradh> If it seems so, implement it so.
21:39:49 <Riastradh> Check, though.
21:40:05 <Riastradh> Also, it may help to change the parser so that it actually just parses, and does not evaluate, the arithmetic.
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21:41:05 <arcfide> I noticed that. A bit weird doing the evaluation at the same time as the parsing.
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21:45:16 <arcfide> Well, it is making more sense now.
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21:46:59 <Riastradh> You may proceed to use parscheme for a SPARQL parser if your grade on your expanded arithmetic parser is high enough.  As extra credit, you may make reduce strings of an associative operator to a single list, so that, for example, a + b + c is parsed as (+ a b c).
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22:03:24 <arcfide> Riastradh: does parscheme handle left recursion just fine?
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22:07:01 <Riastradh> No.  You will need to be cleverer than that.
22:07:13 <Riastradh> Parscheme does no global transformations of the grammar you express with it.  It is entirely local.
22:07:23 <arcfide> Drat...
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22:08:17 <Riastradh> It will be convenient to use the repetition parsers.
22:10:12 <lisppaste> arcfide pasted "Bad Parsing" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/76380
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22:10:27 <arcfide> So I am trying to start with the basics, and add subtraction.
22:10:46 <arcfide> [I'd like to do this before doing left association.]
22:10:57 <arcfide> This doesn't work, but I don't see why.
22:11:03 <Riastradh> I suggest that you define a combinator (PARSER:LEFT-ASSOCIATIVE <operand-parser> <operator-parser> <combiner>), and similarly for PARSER:RIGHT-ASSOCIATIVE.
22:11:26 <Riastradh> That's not all your code, nor all your interactions.
22:12:16 <lisppaste> arcfide annotated #76380 "All my code." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/76380#1
22:13:09 <Riastradh> And your complete interactions?
22:13:18 <Riastradh> At least, enough to elicit the error.
22:14:18 <lisppaste> arcfide annotated #76380 "Interaction" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/76380#2
22:16:10 <Riastradh> First of all, does the original example work, without your modifications?
22:16:16 <arcfide> Yes.
22:16:47 <arcfide> I tried that first, and it works, though it ignored parts that it did not understand, strangely.
22:16:57 <Riastradh> Why is that strange?
22:17:06 <Riastradh> It parsed all that it could, and then left the rest of the stream intact.
22:17:11 <arcfide> I expected it to give an error such as "Unexpected token" or something.
22:17:17 <Riastradh> You didn't tell it to.
22:17:56 <Riastradh> Anyway, the problem is that Chez's ERROR procedure is silly, and requires its second argument to be a string.
22:18:13 <arcfide> Oh! I thought I fixed that.
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22:19:19 <arcfide> Oh, haha, not in your example, I did not.
22:19:27 <eli> samth: fong
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22:19:55 <arcfide> Riastradh: Okay, that's fixed.
22:20:06 <arcfide> Nonetheless, there's still something wrong with my grammar.
22:20:08 <Riastradh> You should complain to the Chez developers that Chez fails to implement SRFI 23; or you should find some way to use SRFI 23.
22:20:24 <arcfide> Riastradh: I have a port of SRFI 23 so I can use it whenever I want.
22:20:31 <arcfide> I just didn't realize that you were using it.
22:20:42 <arcfide> Apparently my eyes glossed over the ERROR there.
22:20:50 <Riastradh> So, what goes wrong now?
22:21:28 <arcfide> "Parse error at 3: Unexpected end of input."
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22:21:48 <Riastradh> If you trace the parser by hand, what do you expect to happen?
22:22:34 <samth> eli: send me that script
22:23:03 <arcfide> I expect the expression parser to => add-or-sub => add => multiplicative + add-or-sub => 5 + multiplicative => 5 + 5 => 10.
22:23:11 <arcfide> Wait...
22:23:26 <arcfide> Yeah.
22:23:42 <arcfide> Hrm.
22:24:01 <Daemmerung> rudybot: eval (begin (parameterize ((current-output-port (GRAB))) (display "not with a bang, ")) (display "but with a whimper") (newline))
22:24:01 <rudybot> Daemmerung: ; stdout: "but with a whimper\n"
22:24:25 <eli> samth: ok, ok, I'm still recovering.
22:24:47 <arcfide> Riastradh: Yeah, that seems right.
22:24:47 <zbigniew> in the room the women call/cc
22:24:52 <Riastradh> arcfide, let's expand that a little bit.
22:25:01 <arcfide> Riastradh: Okay, how much do you want?
22:25:04 <Riastradh> EXPRESSION reduces to ADD-OR-SUB.
22:25:08 <arcfide> Right.
22:25:13 <Riastradh> ADD-OR-SUB reduces to a choice of ADD, SUB, or MULTIPLICATIVE.
22:25:17 <arcfide> Right.
22:25:31 <Riastradh> ADD reduces to MULTIPLICATIVE, then `+', then ADD-OR-SUB.
22:25:35 <arcfide> Right.
22:25:49 <Riastradh> Let's forget multiplication, and reduce it to PRIMARY, which consumes the `5', leaving `+5' as input.
22:26:02 *arcfide* nods.
22:26:05 <Riastradh> Next, returning to ADD, we consume `+', and proceed to ADD-OR-SUB.
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22:26:28 <arcfide> With ya so far.
22:26:33 <Riastradh> ADD-OR-SUB reduces to ADD, which reduces to MULTIPLICATIVE, then `+', then ADD-OR-SUB; or to SUB, or to MULTIPLICATIVE.
22:26:44 <arcfide> Right, and that will fail.
22:26:52 <Riastradh> MULTIPLICATIVE consumes the `5', and we are left with `', which ADD-OR-SUB is unhappy with.
22:27:10 <Riastradh> Since no input is left, you get a parse error.
22:27:10 <arcfide> So it should fail and try the next choice, right?
22:27:11 <Riastradh> What went wrong?
22:27:53 <Riastradh> Not quite.  ADD already consumed the `5' (since PRIMARY did), so we can't backtrack.
22:27:54 <arcfide> What's the use of PARSER:CHOICE then? Do I have to explicitely test each PASER and fail for CHOICE to work?
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22:28:20 <arcfide> PARSER, even.
22:28:37 <Riastradh> The tricky bit, which is not explained directly in (although it could be inferred from) the cheat sheet, is that PARSER:CHOICE allows choice but not backtracking.
22:28:52 <arcfide> How can you do choice without backtracking?
22:28:53 <Riastradh> If the choices may overlap, then one of them (an arbitrary one) wins.
22:29:14 <arcfide> You mean this only works if all the parsers do not consume input on a failure?
22:29:44 <Riastradh> There are many cases when choice without backtracking is exactly what one wants.
22:30:16 <Riastradh> If you want backtracking, you must say so.
22:30:25 <arcfide> Fooey.
22:30:29 *arcfide* sighs.
22:30:32 <arcfide> Okay, so...
22:30:34 *arcfide* thinks.
22:30:37 <Riastradh> Skim the cheat sheet, the whole thing.
22:30:42 <Riastradh> (It's short.)
22:30:48 <arcfide> I noticed the BAKCTRACKing stuff.
22:31:07 <arcfide> Do I *need* to use BACKTRACK stuff for this?
22:31:29 <arcfide> No, I don't....
22:31:32 <Riastradh> No, but if you want to take the approach you're taking, you will.
22:31:33 <arcfide> I think I've got an idea.
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22:32:25 <arcfide> Oh boulderdash. That means implementing essentially a LEFT-ASSOCIATIVE and a RIGHT-ASSOCIATIVE. :-P
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22:33:14 <Riastradh> What a terrible pity.  You'll just have to take my suggestion and give concise names to the concepts you'd otherwise spray incoherently all over the page...
22:33:49 <arcfide> Yeah yeah.
22:40:01 <arcfide> Riastradh: does PARSER:CHOICE return the value returned by the parser chosen?
22:40:45 <Riastradh> The parser returned by PARSER:CHOICE yields the value yielded by the chosen parser.  Be careful with the words `return' and `yield' -- I think that the cheat sheet is careful to use `return' to mean what a combinator (i.e. a procedure) returns, and `yield' to mean what a parser produces after consuming some input.
22:41:00 <arcfide> I see.
22:42:34 <Riastradh> One important difference between PARSER:CHOICE and PARSER:DEEP-CHOICE is that PARSER:CHOICE is not fundamentally ordered; the current implementation is, but that is an implementation detail, and a fancier implementation could use a faster PARSER:CHOICE based on a map of the initial tokens admitted by each choice.
22:43:34 <Riastradh> (...provided that none of the choices begins with PARSER:TOKEN-IF or PARSER:TOKEN*, of course.)
22:45:23 <Riastradh> Also, it is important to understand that this is an imperative language for concisely describing the sequence of actions to parse a stream of tokens.  It is nice when a grammar can be described declaratively with it, but this is not always so.
22:46:16 <arcfide> Right.
22:47:20 <Riastradh> One consequence of this design is that it generally does not leak space unless you request it to, except in the form of closures (which is unfortunate if your Scheme system, unlike Scheme48, does not flatten all closure environments).
22:48:12 <Fare> ah, committed choice non-determinism!
22:48:21 <Fare> aka applicative order evaluation
22:48:27 <Fare> aka call-by-value
22:48:36 <Fare> aka cut (in prolog)
22:48:45 <Fare> (except that cut cuts too much)
22:49:00 <Riastradh> Cut is actually a little different.
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22:50:13 <Riastradh> In Prolog, backtracking choice is the default, and cut severs all backtracking.  In parscheme, committing choice is the default, and PARSER:BACKTRACKABLE records exactly the points to which you want to be able to backtrack.  Thus it is much easier to control precisely how much information the parser must remember.
22:50:34 <Elly> mmm, cut
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22:55:59 <Riastradh> And committing to a choice in parscheme does not sever existing backtracking points.
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23:00:38 <arcfide> Riastradh: What does the PARSER:REPEATED combiner take as arguments?
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23:01:43 <Fare> whereas logic variables are much like call-by-future
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23:02:19 <Fare> you name it know, you'll find what's in it later.
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23:03:34 *ayrnieu* likes to 'use' variables before he 'defines' them in Mercury.  It reads nicer, and it prods the reader to remember the context.
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23:10:43 <arcfide> Riastradh? Are you still there?
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23:15:22 <Riastradh> Briefly, yes.
23:15:49 <Riastradh> The PARSER:REPEATED takes the item parsed as the first argument and the current seed as the second argument.
23:15:49 <arcfide> I think PARSER:REPATED is what I want, but what is the signature of the combinator?
23:15:58 <arcfide> Aah, I see.
23:16:04 <Riastradh> Sorry:  The procedure passed to PARSER:REPEATED...
23:16:23 <arcfide> and that seed changes with the results from the combinator?
23:16:28 <Riastradh> Yes.
23:16:38 <arcfide> Great. I think I'm getting  the hang of this.
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23:57:17 <arcfide> Wohoo! I think I got it.
23:58:03 <lisppaste> arcfide annotated #76380 "ADD, SUB, MUL, DIV, EXPT, left associativity." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/76380#3
23:58:13 <arcfide> Riastradh: If you are still around, I welcome comments.
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