00:00:05 ee: In what browser are you viewing this? 00:00:09 if i understand the tutorial, the colored boxes are formal definitions 00:00:17 It's kinda messy in links 00:00:24 Firefox is clear 00:00:33 firefox on mac 00:00:54 ee: The colored boxes are not scheme code 00:00:55 ee: ignore the formal definitions, focus on the code 00:01:04 oh? 00:01:17 They're type definitions, I think 00:01:25 Like klutometis said 00:01:35 i see 00:01:49 what a bizarre tutorial 00:01:52 ee: try sicp yet? 00:02:11 klutometis: I think they're closet Haskellers 00:02:12 what's sicp? 00:02:13 :) 00:02:22 that's what was messin with me 00:02:41 rudybot_: sicp? 00:02:41 sjamaan: ? 00:02:42 -!- repror___ [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:02:44 heh 00:02:50 *sjamaan* misses sarahbot 00:03:10 ee: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book.html 00:03:18 I wonder if I can trouble you with some general scheme questions 00:03:27 ah yes 00:03:29 that book 00:03:36 that was one of my questions 00:03:39 Ask away 00:03:40 :) 00:03:43 i'm watching the mit videos 00:03:57 wanted to make sure plt scheme was gonna jive with that 00:04:01 sjamaan: heh; hence the formal types, or hence the blog-based tutorial? ;) 00:04:12 just didn't recognize the abbreviation 00:04:24 klutometis: Hence the formal types :) 00:04:37 ee: i've heard that plt works fine 00:04:43 ee: I think it's fine in PLT scheme, but you have to get the correct language level 00:04:53 ok 00:04:56 Pretty Big is probably what you need 00:04:58 mit scheme, on the other hand, is supported out of the box 00:05:14 it's not a bad scheme to cut your teeth on, either 00:05:19 mit scheme is a whole different scheme impl? 00:05:23 yeah 00:05:26 ok 00:05:30 nice IDE? 00:05:36 http://www.gnu.org/software/mit-scheme/ 00:05:43 it has edwin 00:05:48 ok 00:05:50 but i've always like emacs, anyway 00:06:11 i'm just used to MS Word-style and vi bindings 00:06:16 emacs is different 00:06:21 ee: The "Continue" tutorial is a bad choise if your goal is to learn Scheme. 00:06:28 meanburrito920_ [n=John@adsl-76-236-77-212.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 00:06:29 oh 00:06:41 It is a tutorial specific to the web-server framework in PLT. 00:06:42 I was hoping to get that nize reddit-like thing going 00:06:53 so I could show folks at work how kickass scheme is 00:07:05 In that case, it *is* the rigth tutorial, and SICP is not. 00:07:31 I kinda want an environment that comes with a lot of stuff out of the box . . .general purpose programming, in one install 00:07:42 But if you're a newbie to Scheme, then you should probably hang around for a while and learn the language before you jump in the deep end. 00:08:01 i like what they said so far about "continuations" for web development 00:08:19 PLT does have that, and there's plenty of stuff to learn Scheme from. 00:08:32 continuations are fun 00:08:35 i plan to watch the MIT movies no matter what 00:08:48 [Why?] 00:09:16 i'm on lesson 2b and I'm enjoying it so far? 00:09:35 I like all the interesting analogies to elevtical engineering 00:09:57 ever watch them? 00:10:42 ok I had another question about performance 00:10:47 ee: I know sicp -- it 00:10:57 's not the best place to learn Scheme from. 00:11:10 oh 00:11:16 (Even when the lectures look fun.) 00:11:32 It's a great place to learn how to program, but it's not focused on teaching you language specifics 00:12:05 Even that ("learn how to program") is questionable. 00:12:11 it's also a good refresher so far of numerical stuf, like fixed point 00:12:18 I believe, this book is a good one: ftp://ftp.cs.utexas.edu/pub/garbage/cs345/schintro-v14/schintro_toc.html 00:12:32 Sounds suspicious 00:12:35 "garbage" 00:12:36 :) 00:12:51 :) 00:13:01 One mans garbage is another mans tutorial on a functional language 00:13:02 what's garbage? 00:13:23 Well, It's mirrored in several places, this one is the first, I've googled 00:13:29 ee: garbage in the url 00:13:37 ee: In any case, irrelevant drivel aside, you're far better off clarifying your goals and sticking to them. 00:13:37 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 00:14:20 how is scheme for performance compared to clojure? now THAT's a loaded question, I'm sure. 00:14:26 :) 00:14:39 ee: I believe, it's implementation specific 00:15:00 yeah, very much so 00:15:07 well that's part of the question 00:15:16 chicken is not very fast, for example. but ikarus is said to be well optimized 00:15:18 do you have to buy scheme to get fast scheme? 00:15:42 if you're really going to be worried about speed, using any Scheme is probably a problem :) 00:15:43 ee: Ikarus is free 00:15:46 ee: you should expect similar performance; no need to buy. 00:16:11 ee: ...and it's agains a bad subject to focus on if you're a newbie. 00:16:18 ee: Btw, you may look for some synthetic benchmarks here: http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/ 00:16:19 a prof at school said it tended to be faster than any lisp, usually, and he was thinking of porting his class to it . . .also 'cause it is simpler/cleaner/less cruft 00:16:44 ee: But, afaik, only plt and chicken are presented there 00:16:58 -!- forcer [n=forcer@e179193034.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:17:19 ee: scheme itself is so transparent that it's almost invisible, though; so "learning scheme" is just a matter of using it 00:17:20 ee: If you need to optimize some inner loops, you can use C; several Schemes have a very good FFI 00:17:34 forcer [n=forcer@e179194232.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 00:17:35 scheme doesn't have bizarre corner cases like python or c, say 00:18:31 don't know what corner cases you mean. what dimension? 00:18:45 klutometis: sure it does. You might debate the quality of the corners, but there are definitely a pile of them. 00:19:14 that ikarus sounds pretty good, but I wonder if it has all the stuff built in like I was seeing in plt-scheme 00:19:26 that's silly, there can be only 8 corners, max! 00:19:42 Ikarus is relatively new, so don't expect too much 00:19:52 *ee* isn't sure what the labels on the box are to know what corners we are talking about 00:20:19 ee: for instance, i was programming in python the other day, and discovered that [a for a in [1,2,3]] polluted my scope; none of that amateur shit happens in scheme 00:20:38 heh 00:20:43 oh python is really odd about scope for sure 00:20:45 That scoping crap reminds me of Ruby 00:20:47 REALLY odd 00:20:53 i hate it 00:20:58 true true true 00:21:09 you know what I hate? 00:21:13 this is fun now 00:21:13 what's that? 00:21:19 I get to complain about something 00:21:22 in python 00:21:34 :) 00:21:36 they have a built in function that comes withpit any imports 00:21:39 called sum 00:21:45 you can sum a list 00:21:51 why not +? 00:21:57 why is + infixed? 00:22:00 and then? 00:22:05 there's no prod 00:22:07 or mul 00:22:09 Btw, I've heard some folks talking about chez - that it's a very good implementation... What makes chez so special? 00:22:10 or mult 00:22:18 unless you import operators 00:22:22 stupid 00:22:27 Mr-Cat: People earn money by selling it! 00:22:28 you can sum a list out of the box 00:22:38 but you can't take the products 00:22:39 Mr-Cat: Imagine that, earning money selling a Scheme 00:22:42 yeah; and to think that those google cats are so proud of the language they bought 00:22:46 *sjamaan* would think that's pretty special 00:22:46 :) 00:24:04 so i guess I don't like having to memorize "import operators" just to get "mul([])" 00:24:28 sjaaman: Then, why would one want to buy chez? Any advantages, whn compared to plt or chicken? 00:24:28 -!- peter_12 [n=peter@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [] 00:24:47 it's supposed to be fast 00:24:49 Mr-Cat: They say it has good perfomance 00:24:58 It's also been around for a long time 00:25:02 i did see that one the other day 00:25:25 peter_12 [n=peter@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 00:25:58 so I'm looking for a language that has high performance, simple syntax and a fairly complete fuctionality. want it to be high-level, too 00:26:11 ee: if you take time to get used to the piety of scheme, other langs look painful and arbitrary 00:26:26 i was starting to be interested in Haskell but never got through monads 00:26:32 heh 00:26:37 klutometis: I think, python is a good imperative language. I liked it very much... after C#. IMO, Guido made a good start as a language designer, but his latest decisions semm strange to me. 00:26:45 At least you don't have to understand continuations to get started with Scheme :) 00:27:05 ee: You should try again... Not immediayely, but in a couple of months. 00:27:19 with monads? 00:27:19 s/immediayely/immediately 00:27:46 ee: Yes, with haskell and monads. 00:28:46 i guess I need a full-scale problem to work on where I get bitten and someone can say, "aha! you see, with monads, you wouldn't have had to pollute all your code with exception-handling" . . . .or whatever 00:30:17 flourscent [n=floursce@118.176.71.148] has joined #scheme 00:31:21 ee: I think so... At first I aslo was completely confused with monads, but I think I made some progress after I wrote a small monadic parser combinator, a very tiny subset of parsec 00:31:26 what do you folks use scheme for? 00:31:55 *Mr-Cat* uses scheme for home assignments in the uiversity 00:32:41 but who needs another parser? That's awesome and all, but when I see all these parsers, it tells me, "I use language x so I can write a parser for my new language so I can bootstrap until I can just work in that new language" 00:33:15 real men write their parser in the language they are making :) 00:33:17 and then in the new language, what do they do? reimplement the parsec parser :) 00:33:25 *mbishop* high fives Wirth 00:33:26 yeah 00:33:44 ee: That was a home assignment in 'compilers design' course, I just didn't want to implement `LL(1) in C' again 00:33:48 what language you guys writing? 00:33:59 I can appreciate that 00:34:25 Mr-Cat: yeah; i have a feeling guido is getting soft at google 00:34:36 mbishop: what lang? 00:34:42 *Mr-Cat* writes C# at work... (If the question is about that) 00:34:43 incubot: in fact, guido is starting to look a lot like george lucas; and python, star wars 00:34:45 George Lucas robbs you of your childhood memories 00:34:47 ee: hmm? 00:34:50 indeed 00:35:07 incubot: han shot first 00:35:09 Did he kill himself when he shot himself? 00:35:09 Mr-Cat: I was saying I can appreciate your reason 00:35:38 mbishop: what language are you and Wirth making? 00:35:45 klutometis: Well, nice comparison. May I use it to troll python forums? 00:35:52 ee: I write in Scheme, and C when I have to. 00:35:58 ee: in lisp/scheme you only have to implemente eval...Stephen Russell was the first one to discover the power of meta-circular evaluating languages 50 years ago 00:36:05 implement* 00:36:18 ee: we aren't, I was making a joke about Niklaus Wirth, and the fact that Pascal (and probably his other languages) were all written in themselves 00:36:38 Mr-Cat: heh; only if you post a link to their responses 00:36:40 *ee* wishes he could just hang out in uni again 00:36:46 ee: and for your curiosity, I use Scheme for just about everything. 00:36:57 incubot: no, han solo shot greedo 00:36:59 bringing this Eva Solo teapot and a water cooker into my office was probably the single most valuable idea ever.. 00:37:15 arcfide: which distro? 00:37:28 ee: Chez Scheme. 00:37:38 oh, the expensive one 00:37:41 ee: And MIT Scheme when the fancy hits me. 00:38:02 ee: yeah, arcfide is our resident scheme aristocrat 00:38:11 ee: Reason for using this or taht language? 00:38:12 you doing startups or in academia? 00:38:36 klutometis: Aristocrat? 00:38:48 *arcfide* sniffs arrogantly. 00:38:55 reason for questions . . . .language explosion upon us. I'm looking to jump onto a shard 00:39:03 i'm even really interested in J 00:39:18 ee: Was that start-up question directed to me? 00:39:38 also interested in going beyond boring OO that I learned for school and work 00:39:42 Java and C++ 00:40:07 spent a lot of time in discussions about imprefect conventions that just go away when you abandone c++ 00:41:10 arcfide: yeah . . . not to pry . . . just shooting the shit 00:41:53 ee: I have programmed for start-ups, I work in Academia right now, and on the side I provide continuing support to a couple of organizations, individuals, and companies. 00:42:11 Nothing really big, mind you, but enough that I can say I use Scheme in commercial and non-academic environments. ;-) 00:42:32 samth [n=samth@c-65-96-163-214.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:42:51 sorry got a call 00:42:59 still on it 00:44:09 rudybot_: give ee '|a lollipop| 00:44:10 ee: mejja has given you a value, use (GRAB) in an eval to get it (case sensitive) 00:44:39 *arcfide* wonders how long he has resided in #scheme. 00:45:51 i'm back 00:45:55 sorry to be rude 00:46:28 (GRAB) 00:46:30 -!- orgy` [n=ratm_@pD9FFF596.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:47:02 ee: You have to say rudybot_: (GRAB), I think 00:47:09 Or maybe even rudybot_: eval (GRAB) 00:47:19 rudybot_: eval (GRAB) 00:47:19 ee: ; Value: |a lollipop| 00:47:30 rudybot_: (GRAB) 00:47:30 ee: ? 00:47:35 heh 00:50:16 speaking of haskell 00:50:38 there was a book that everyone said was a blast. then I found contrary reviews 00:50:42 as a start book 00:50:46 lemme try to remember 00:51:09 ee: real world haskell? 00:52:08 http://www.haskell.org/soe/ 00:52:16 GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-236-161.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:52:26 -!- GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-236-161.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has left #scheme 00:53:03 i've heard of real-world haskell, too 00:53:18 ee: Mmm, never heard of it... I started with a wikibook 00:53:50 so this is odd. I'd expected to go back to the plt-scheme reddit example, and eli says it's not a good way to go. . . .and also not the MIT videos. 00:54:10 ee: What is your goal again? 00:54:15 i may keep at it and torture people with my questions 00:54:17 -!- ken-p [n=unknown@84.92.70.37] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:55:07 getting some web development going -- granted I don't really know web development -- in a simple, powerful, fast, expressive language with modern support 00:55:34 that's one goal 00:55:36 or 00:55:50 rudybot_: give Mr-Cat "an Indian burn" 00:55:51 offby1`: error: r6rs: must contain a `library' form (for a library) or start with `import' (for a top-level program) in: (#%module-begin) 00:55:57 *offby1`* stares blankly 00:55:59 "learn something that stretches my mind like taking on the euler challenges" 00:56:04 rudybot_: nick rudybot 00:56:05 offby1`: ? 00:56:10 -!- offby1` is now known as offby1 00:56:12 rudybot_: nick rudybot 00:56:12 -!- rudybot_ is now known as rudybot 00:56:33 rudybot: init scheme 00:56:34 *offby1: your sandbox is ready 00:56:34 kinda hard when I don't necessarily have a goal :) 00:56:38 rudybot_: give Mr-Cat "an Indian burn" 00:56:43 rudybot: give Mr-Cat "an Indian burn" 00:56:43 Mr-Cat: offby1 has given you a value, use (GRAB) in an eval to get it (case sensitive) 00:56:47 *whew* 00:57:01 rudybot: eval (GRAB) 00:57:02 Mr-Cat: ; Value: "an Indian burn" 00:57:16 *Mr-Cat* fals on the groung and rolls burning 00:57:18 ee: not sure what "modern support" is, an 800 number? but scheme's as simple as it gets, is powerful enough to comprehend functional, OO and declarative paradigms; compile to native binary; and is infinitely expressive with macros 00:57:27 ee: if you just want to learn something, SICP is probably a good starting point. 00:57:41 But that's just my opinion. 00:57:48 arcfide: i have to second that; although there's a growing chorus of anti-SICP cats on here 00:57:49 *Mr-Cat* fills the room with the smell of burnt fur 00:57:59 There are lot's of neat little problems in the book that test your knowledge of concepts you thought you had a handle on. 00:58:02 i wonder why 00:58:11 my cat has no opinion on SICP -- in fact I don't think he's ever even read it 00:58:26 SICP seems to be out of vogue these days. 00:58:42 that actually made me laugh out loud 00:58:48 I guess, some people think it's not doing its job, which I fail to understand. 00:58:53 i'd use "lol" but you wouldn't believe me 00:59:00 same here 00:59:12 i didn't even remember how fixed point worked 00:59:15 arcfide: all the more reason to invest, i say 00:59:18 already learned something 00:59:24 I think Universities especially are getting a lot of pressure because the traditional CS stuff is..."too hard." 00:59:31 offby1: would your cat use it as litter, though, if it were ground into confetti? 00:59:43 CS is hard, let's go shopping! 00:59:45 unis are getting pressure to crank out gui developers 01:00:02 arcfide: hence university as java-mill; no wonder the US doesn't produce engineers any more 01:00:12 well, with cell phones, like mine that went off, you never get to focus for long enough to meditate on hard problems 01:00:24 you ust want a framework like ruby on rails 01:00:30 ee: Turn it off. 01:00:34 and/or Java and oracle 01:00:45 ee: It's remarkably liberating when you realize that you don't have to live as a slave to technology. 01:00:50 it's usually not with me! 01:01:18 klutometis: probably, but I wouldn't let him: it wouldn't "clump" and hence would be hard to clean 01:01:24 But then again, I still practice calligraphy and write letters (real letters, not these sorry excuses for letters that people throw into electronic SMTP transfers these days). 01:01:36 the funny thing though is that your chatting on what? 01:01:51 ee: You don't have to shun technology either. 01:01:58 yeah 01:02:07 arcfide: you sure you're not really Riastradh? 01:02:20 I like to make my technology work for me, not force me to work for it: ergo, I am a Scheme programmer. 01:02:21 i could only live off in the mountains if I had a nice dish for high speed 01:02:39 offby1: I've been here a long time, think he's wearing off? Hrm, should I be afraid? 01:02:59 "sorry excuses for letters" just sounded like something he'd say 01:03:02 Then again, not long enough to develop a resistance? 01:03:30 offby1: Riastradh doesn't have a monopoloy on cynicism and pessimistic world views. ;-) 01:03:32 is it always so lively in here? 01:03:47 ee: Neh, we do work, ... sometimes. 01:04:02 ee: This time of th day it can be 01:04:03 ee: it's the most literate room i've ever seen 01:04:12 As in, right now I am attempting to fuddle through ugly Java code to write tests for a class in which I assist. 01:04:47 ee: Ufortunately, in my place it's usually something about 4:00 (of night/morning) o'clock at that time 01:05:30 so Mr. Cat knows more than just many computer languages 01:05:38 people languages, too 01:05:49 ee: M? 01:06:02 it's 4am there? 01:06:12 ee: Yes 01:06:16 ee: If you really want to get us talking, start speaking in Latin. 01:06:25 oh no 01:06:44 i saw on wikipedia 01:06:53 that someone reimplemented perl as latin 01:07:08 Illigitimii Non Carborundum 01:07:12 ^^ Latin ^^ 01:08:06 http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~damian/papers/HTML/Perligata.html 01:08:30 arcfide: quod inquis? 01:09:19 Quod Erat Demonstratum? 01:09:29 atWhay Is OrFay UnchLay? 01:09:41 *ee* doesn't stem from very literate places where people teach stuff or even know stuff -- too sunny outside 01:10:04 inutilis 01:11:19 klutometis: Hrm? Did I say something? 01:12:48 -!- Mr-Cat [n=chatzill@89-178-255-231.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:13:06 offby1, in no Scheme system of which I am aware does STRING-APPEND share storage with the input strings. 01:16:14 :( 01:21:05 arcfide: volo latine colloquor, sed meam potentiam poscat 01:24:28 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:27:22 thanks for the discussion, all 01:27:44 i'll come back and visit again 01:27:50 -!- ee [i=60e71dd8@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-9e07e974bfaf1156] has left #scheme 01:30:42 TryNiX [n=halaw@128.86.158.97] has joined #scheme 01:42:22 -!- morphir [n=morphir@217.168.81.9] has quit [] 01:49:33 -!- gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:49:49 boy this sucks... 01:50:15 plt's sqlite module is not only 3rd party, but I can't stop it from segfaulting. 01:50:38 prepare, run, finalize, and it segfaults on finalize. 01:50:40 what a piece of junk 01:51:02 morphir [n=morphir@217.168.81.9] has joined #scheme 01:55:36 gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has joined #scheme 01:55:40 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-154-52.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:56:01 synx: try chicken's 01:56:49 chicken doesn't have a persistent objects interface... 01:57:26 synx: write a bug report; I will bet you they'll fix it 02:05:33 I can't write a bug report. planet scheme's trac registration script is broken. 02:05:50 damn I'm just gonna go make dinner 02:07:34 -!- HG` [n=wells@118.82.169.165] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:16:02 -!- kryptiskt [i=irc@95.209.0.66.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:17:32 kryptiskt [i=irc@79.138.131.87.bredband.tre.se] has joined #scheme 02:22:30 -!- morphir [n=morphir@217.168.81.9] has quit [] 02:25:24 morphir [n=morphir@217.168.81.9] has joined #scheme 02:28:01 -!- Modius_ is now known as Modius 02:39:45 xwl [n=user@221.221.157.195] has joined #scheme 02:40:21 I'm loving mit-scheme pretty-printer....but it can't print special forms sintax like cond and let....is there a pretty printer command for macros ? 02:45:24 What precisely would you want it to do? 02:47:48 For instance, when I type (pp eval) it now shows me how eval is actually implemented. I want to be able to do the same thing for macros. So (pp cond) would show the macro implementation. 02:49:34 The pp concept is really interesting. The program being able to reflect about itself. 02:52:18 You can write (PP (ENVIRONMENT-LOOKUP-MACRO (NEAREST-REPL/ENVIRONMENT) 'COND)), but it probably won't be very interesting to you. 02:52:40 benny` [n=benny@i577A0A0D.versanet.de] has joined #scheme 02:55:45 I see. Yes. 02:56:24 I just want it to show something like the macros on page 43 of R5RS (7.3 Derived expression types) 02:59:35 Oops -- sorry, you'll want to pretty-print the procedure inside the expander item inside what the above expression prints. 02:59:54 You can refer to objects such as #[expander-item 123] by writing '#@123. 03:04:29 -!- gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:05:31 Is there a function that takes a bool and resolves to the bool 03:05:55 so I can say use find on a list to find a #t 03:06:00 or should I just lambda it 03:06:13 -!- morphir [n=morphir@217.168.81.9] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:06:58 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A015E.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:07:09 gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has joined #scheme 03:09:02 nvm 03:10:31 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 03:10:35 Thanks Riastradh. 03:35:03 does anyone know how to get  to display as  in emacs, not λ? 03:36:14 yes I know that won't display on IRC right either for everyone. stupid ASCII... 03:36:59 C-x RET l UTF-8 03:37:14 doesn't work eli 03:37:34 Sure it does, try harder. 03:37:52 crap I think emacs corrupted all the files I looked at. 03:38:03 Also, you can add (set-language-environment "UTF-8") to your .emacs 03:38:24 It's a bad idea to do that while editing a file. 03:38:53 Apparantly so. 03:41:11 The good news are that you're very unlikely to have corrupted lots of stuff, and the stuff that you did, is probably very easy to fix. 03:41:44 just a search and replace 03:42:19 Yes -- but done carefully so you won't run into unicode traps. 03:42:23 well, technically it's just double encoded, but since only the one character wasn't common to the two encodings... 03:42:33 Another useful thing to know about is M-x find-file-literally 03:42:44 it will avoid doing any kind of magic behind your back. 03:42:52 encode(good,decode(bad,text-in-good)) = bad 03:43:14 What kind...of magic? c.c 03:43:28 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:44:23 Doing charset stuffs, adding newline at the end of the file, detecting images, and a bunch of similar things that usually are what you intend. 03:44:44 -!- hark [n=strider@hark.slew.org] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:44:44 npe [i=npe@isa7-dhcp-116-151.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 03:44:54 It's a kind of a useful hook to know that you're really going to just open the file and no editing will happen unless you're the one doing it. 03:44:59 So I have to type find-file-literally all the time to keep it from modifying the file upon open? 03:45:18 Or you mean it's just for editing badly encoded files? 03:45:35 The latter. 03:45:42 Plus, it's a useful thing to bind to some key. 03:45:58 bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has joined #scheme 03:46:11 I wonder why emacs ignores /etc/emacs/site-startup.el... 03:46:37 That's usually a feature, not a bug. 03:46:59 I shudder when I think about the amount of complete crap distros put there. 03:47:07 ehe 03:47:38 well I just wanted to make it so no matter which user I was I could see the  and not garbage the files. 03:48:13 Setting stuff for everyone is almost never a good idea. 03:48:40 Having a default that corrupts utf-8 files doesn't seem like that great an idea either. 03:50:19 You shouldn't have got to any kind of corruption -unless- you've changed your language environment in the middle of editing the file. 03:50:42 And doing so can lead to bogus stuff in any case, even when you start from a UTF-8 default. 03:50:55 I suppose that's true. 03:51:26 But it doesn't seem a worse idea to start from utf-8 than to start from "English" whatever that means. 03:52:03 I agree in general trusting what your distribution thinks is a good idea is pretty foolish. 03:54:23 I dunno. 03:54:30 Doing everything yourself is very time-consuming. 03:54:51 That'd be like not trusting a contractor to build your house, and insisting on sawing every plank yourself. 03:55:01 bashyal_ [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has joined #scheme 03:55:32 That would be a very good idea, if you're a plank-sawing expert. 03:55:41 and if your time isn't worth much. 03:56:22 -!- bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:56:26 Actually, the only "advantage" that the Fedora-installed-Emacs version gave me, was various bugs that were due to their horrible setup. 03:56:47 Disabling their whole emacs-local crap was the real time saver for me. 03:57:03 It's more like you buy a house, and your local homeowner's association shows up with hammers and nails saying they know what's best for you. 03:57:30 "Oh sure, come on in!" 03:58:19 Huh it is calling (set-language-environment "UTF-8") on startup, and then promptly ignoring it... 03:58:38 "Open source" = "even the neighbor's three-year-old can get a shot at fixing your car". 03:59:21 If you let him, of course he can! 04:00:00 And if he succeeds then you can trust the quality of his work. It's nothing special about open source. 04:03:00 looks like customize overwrites the language environment, bleh 04:03:25 -!- TryNiX [n=halaw@128.86.158.97] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 04:03:40 -!- bashyal_ [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has quit [] 04:06:54 there we go that's fine. 04:07:33 you can set it in site startup, in your ~/.emacs, and in that customize thing, in ascending order of priority. 04:10:36 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["leaving"] 04:20:19 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-1-41.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 04:21:54 Well, now emacs is encoding it properly, but it's displaying  as a square box, but only when loading the file. Pasting or typing it it displays fine. 04:22:57 Debian has overall very good Emacs packaging. 04:33:31 Well I sure can't settle if it only displays code points if you type them, but not if you load them from file. 04:35:11 heck even vim displays the s. Of course it labels them as angry red horrible syntax errors, but details. 04:36:37 ! ! ! >:| 04:37:51 A football cheer? 04:43:15 -!- Arelius [n=Indy@netblock-68-183-230-134.dslextreme.com] has quit [] 04:43:29 synx: The problem is in the font, not in Emacs. 04:44:31 Speaking of that, does anyone know of a nice big sans font that looks good with code? 04:45:58 Uh, interesting. So it uses a different font when displaying characters loaded from file, than when you type them into the buffer? 04:53:43 Adamant_ [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:53:44 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:55:12 -!- Adamant_ [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 04:55:39 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:57:06 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 05:05:53 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:07:20 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 05:23:15 rudybot: eval (apply apply (list apply apply (list (list apply apply (list (list apply + (list (list 2 3))))))))) 05:23:15 zbigniew: error: eval:1:98: read: unexpected `)' 05:23:40 sorry, rudy 05:23:43 rudybot: eval (apply apply (list apply apply (list (list apply apply (list (list apply + (list (list 2 3)))))))) 05:23:43 zbigniew: ; Value: 5 05:25:06 rudybot: eval (apply . apply . `(,apply (,apply (,apply (apply . ,cons . (())))))) 05:25:06 zbigniew: ; Value: (apply) 05:27:39 -!- tjafk1 [n=timj@e176208004.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:27:57 tjafk1 [n=timj@e176220158.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 05:29:14 -!- xwl [n=user@221.221.157.195] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:29:28 what's the best "IDE" of scheme out there? [i'm not looking for a discussion, but a simple suggestion :)] 05:31:36 emacs 05:31:57 DrScheme 05:32:41 vim :| 05:34:14 thanks! 05:40:03 oh...try edwin too :) 05:45:46 -!- flourscent [n=floursce@118.176.71.148] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:48:17 ex 05:50:39 flourscent [n=floursce@118.176.71.148] has joined #scheme 05:57:20 -!- meanburrito920_ [n=John@adsl-76-236-77-212.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:58:50 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 06:06:54 Modius_ [n=Modius@99.179.103.210] has joined #scheme 06:08:32 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:09:59 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 06:13:46 ttmrichter [n=ttmricht@221.235.56.141] has joined #scheme 06:24:12 -!- Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-250-154-209.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:25:55 eclipse 06:25:57 *mbishop* hides 06:34:17 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:35:44 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 06:37:14 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 06:39:04 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 06:39:13 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@99.179.103.210] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 06:43:20 Modius_ [n=Modius@99.179.101.136] has joined #scheme 06:44:54 -!- rudybot is now known as jbms_ 06:45:24 -!- flourscent [n=floursce@118.176.71.148] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:45:45 -!- jbms_ is now known as rudybot 06:47:21 -!- npe [i=npe@isa7-dhcp-116-151.naist.jp] has quit [] 06:54:17 gerard [n=gerard@124-197-41-171.callplus.net.nz] has joined #scheme 06:57:42 Aratsu- [n=blah@24.42.160.108] has joined #scheme 07:01:44 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 07:02:10 flourscent [n=floursce@118.176.71.148] has joined #scheme 07:03:11 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 07:06:29 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 07:07:56 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 07:14:46 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 07:20:38 -!- X-Scale [i=email@89.181.52.238] has left #scheme 07:23:51 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 07:32:12 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 07:32:27 aw, doesn't look like chicken scheme can handle  07:33:36 sure it can 07:34:06 It says "illegal atomic form" 07:34:07 (define-syntax  (syntax-rules () ((_ . args) (lambda . args)))) 07:34:24 it's not builtin by default, that would be silly 07:34:34 "highlevel macros are not supported" 07:34:49 In Chicken 3 (use riaxpander). 07:34:59 I did try that already yeah. 07:35:08 riaxpander...? 07:36:18 The core of Chicken is very minimal. Things like the numeric tower, unicode support and hygienic macros are provided as optional extensions. 07:36:37 There are in fact several extensions that provide syntax-rules. I recommend riaxpander. 07:37:25 In Chicken 4, many more things are moved out of the core, but hygienic macros are provided by default, since this is required for sane module system integration. 07:37:43 -!- ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["absquatulating"] 07:37:48 Interesting. 07:39:22 Uh... how do you install riaxpander? 07:39:34 $ chicken-setup riaxpander 07:39:44 That's how you install all eggs. 07:40:31 Thanks I missed that. 07:43:14 Sweet it worked! 07:46:19 Guess I'll just throw that at the top of every file. Kind of messy... eh. 07:59:33 Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-214-24.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 08:00:38 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 08:02:12 -!- peter_12 [n=peter@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [] 08:03:22 hmm... Error: (provide) bad argument type - not a symbol: # 08:05:04 (provide 'join) 08:05:09 Not (provide join) 08:05:23 ... and the name join is taken :) 08:05:33 Oh okay. 08:05:44 ehe, yeah... 08:06:04 in plt I could put a prefix on it when requiring it, to make it schema:join 08:06:53 In Chicken 4 you can do that too. In Chicken 3 you need to discipline yourself with prefixes. 08:07:10 ... manual prefixes. 08:07:12 bah, discipline :3 08:15:19 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 08:20:10 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 08:21:37 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 08:27:10 does chicken have alist-map? ._. 08:27:55 oh, hash tables... 08:27:59 that'll work 08:32:33 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 08:33:21 -!- Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-214-24.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has left #scheme 08:36:12 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Operation timed out] 08:55:54 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B056BD7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 09:04:18 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 09:05:45 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 09:13:19 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined 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saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 10:11:05 ktne [n=ktne@unaffiliated/ktne] has joined #scheme 10:11:21 hello, i don't understand something about chicken scheme implementation 10:11:56 if all functions are called as normal C functions wouldn't that mean that tail calls won't be constant in space anymore? 10:13:26 ejs [n=eugen@17-228-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 10:14:50 Arelius [n=Indy@netblock-68-183-230-134.dslextreme.com] has joined #scheme 10:21:07 sorry ktne - I dont know anything about chicken scheme specifically... but surely an easy way to find out 10:21:28 is define a recursive procedure - and pass it some v. large argument & see if it blows the stack 10:21:50 i know that 10:21:57 but chicken scheme uses this: http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/CheneyMTA.html 10:22:16 ktne, I suspect function calls in the tail position is handled differernt, via a lump of sorts 10:22:17 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 10:22:23 jump 10:22:40 leppie: all functions use jumps, but i do not understand how arguments are passed then 10:23:05 sorry I cant help there :) 10:25:35 newb12345 [n=x@DNab434dec.Stanford.EDU] has joined #scheme 10:25:42 anyone here using a window manager writte in scheme? 10:29:25 there's one written in a lisp variant - google 'sawfish window manager' 10:29:26 :) 10:29:36 there's also one in Haskell - XMonad 10:29:43 *AllNight^* doesnt know of one in Scheme though 10:29:53 scwm 10:30:45 ah! interesting foof 10:30:49 ty :) 10:31:03 AllNight^: For Common Lisp, you can also find StumpWM 10:31:09 *MichaelRaskin_* will look at scwm 10:31:15 ty MichaelRaskin_ :) 10:32:01 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:32:47 -!- kryptiskt [i=irc@79.138.131.87.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:38:36 -!- Adamant 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connection] 13:30:53 -!- xdaadx [i=xda@94.26.67.214] has quit [] 13:44:09 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #scheme 13:55:27 -!- dsmith [i=s8is90lk@cpe-71-74-230-225.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:59:40 -!- Mr-Cat [n=chatzill@89-178-252-184.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.6/2009011913]"] 14:13:54 bzzbzz [n=franco@modemcable027.191-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 14:14:17 hark [n=strider@hark.slew.org] has joined #scheme 14:22:13 -!- ktne [n=ktne@unaffiliated/ktne] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:23:29 gcopenhaver [n=greg@c-71-206-116-36.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:26:39 Fulax [n=cyprien@pdpc/supporter/student/cnicolas] has joined #scheme 14:30:56 you all might talk to the folks in #guile about scwm. I think dsmith and somebody else (wingo or unknown_lamer most likely) have been working on it lately. 14:38:54 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-1-164.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 14:41:45 Modius__ [n=Modius@adsl-68-91-192-214.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 14:46:03 aneqrs [n=andreas@c83-253-104-206.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 14:47:22 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@99.179.101.136] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:54:22 morphir [n=morphir@217.168.81.9] has joined #scheme 14:58:23 peter_12 [n=peter@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 15:01:59 masm [n=user@89.155.110.17] has joined #scheme 15:02:54 -!- AllNight^ [n=EnglishG@ai-core.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:09:45 aaco [n=aaco@unaffiliated/aaco] has joined #scheme 15:31:40 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #scheme 15:37:26 -!- xwl [n=user@221.221.157.195] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:40:47 -!- jao [n=user@64.Red-83-33-179.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:46:15 sachael [n=uibxn@nat-wh.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has joined #scheme 15:58:01 minus273 [n=anncmy@rezo-156-21.ens.fr] has joined #scheme 15:58:28 Mr-Cat [n=Mr-Cat@bahirkin1507.static.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 16:09:38 hi, I'm looking for a good scheme implementation for linux. My distro has scheme48 16:10:18 is scheme48 not good? 16:10:28 orgy` [n=ratm_@pD9FFF817.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 16:11:00 i have no idea, that is why I'm asking 16:11:44 i also have chicken, bigloo, guile, and some others 16:12:10 -!- minus273 [n=anncmy@rezo-156-21.ens.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:12:29 sachael: What distro do you use? 16:12:36 Mr-Cat, i use gentoo 16:12:51 minus273 [n=anncmy@rezo-156-21.ens.fr] has joined #scheme 16:13:27 you're lost in a twisty maze of Schemes, all different 16:13:35 sachael: As for me I like chicken. 16:13:52 +1 on chicken 16:14:01 s48 is great too, but doesn't have as many libraries 16:14:09 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:14:11 -1 on guile? 16:14:18 :) 16:14:33 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 16:14:45 i see, I mentioned s48 because it was the first that came up 16:15:01 (except when you are diligent configurator) 16:23:32 I like guile, myself, but that's really a sort of congenital bias. It was the scheme I was born into schemeland with. 16:23:48 borism_ [n=boris@195-50-200-246-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 16:24:11 PLT seems to have some excellent design decisions, but I expect many other schemes do too. 16:24:49 PLT also has at least one tremendously stupid design desicion 16:24:57 which is? 16:25:08 relegating 'mutable' conses 16:25:19 isn't that an R6RS decision? 16:25:29 I think PLT was there first 16:25:43 if it was R6RS that decided it, it would still be a terrible idea 16:25:48 oh, I don't know if the news has made the rounds here, but guile now has a slick little byte-code compiling VM thingy, thanks to wingo. 16:26:35 -!- Judofyr [n=Judofyr@95.34.27.156.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:27:06 I think it will be in a 1.10 release Real Soon Now. 16:27:31 but even without being released, it is certainly working. 16:30:23 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-199-196-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:34:32 Cheshire: Feel free to come up with a *smart* design for immutable pairs, use it in your implemenetation, and get rich quick. 16:34:45 eli, design is irrelevant 16:35:01 you can add icons icar icdr to the language 16:35:22 "design is irrelevant" to a "stupid design desicion"? 16:35:25 Yes We Can procedures 16:35:32 instead of adding m to existing stuff, then putting a different cons/car/cdr where the gap was 16:35:59 just compare the compexity of describing each change -- you can see which is most complex, most awkward 16:36:25 Cheshire: So let me get this straight -- by "tremendously stupid design desicion" your issue is just with the names?? 16:36:31 eli, exactly 16:36:59 OK, ein ma laasot. Mefagrim aval optimiyim, kmo sheomrim. 16:37:34 sorry I don't know spanish 16:37:49 oooh he's cussing you out in the language of the Old Testament 16:37:56 That's not spanish, but it's not a language that makes sense to you, similar to the language you're talking. 16:38:00 y'know that's the language God speaks, so be very afraid 16:38:00 optimiyim? 16:38:22 pessimiyim 16:38:32 if mutable conses were good enough Jesus, by jove it's good enough for me 16:38:50 eli: hebrew? :o 16:39:09 To be more precise, if your goal is to switch mutable pairs to immutable ones, then you're change suggests changing thousands lines of code. 16:39:21 eli, that is ridiculous, you make no sense 16:39:36 eli, the change is already made -- I'm not suggesting going back, I'm saying it was a bad idea in the first place 16:39:38 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:39:55 reprore__ [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 16:39:58 Cheshire: Please define *what* is it that was a bad idea. 16:40:09 I already did, You know fine well what I am talking about 16:40:23 Oh no... not another mutable cons holy war... 16:40:31 Mr-Cat, this happened before? 16:40:35 No, you had an issue with *names*, now you're indicating an issue with changes in the semantics. 16:41:29 Cheshire: maybe not here (I'm somewhat new here), but in other places 16:41:41 eli, it happens all the time when implementors get a 'good idea' 16:41:45 Aratsu- [n=blah@24.42.160.108] has joined #scheme 16:41:58 Cheshire: You still did not define "it". 16:42:09 eli, e.g. GHC renamed the usual exceptions into OldException.Exception and put a new incompatible version in place of the old 16:42:18 Cheshire: You still did not define "it". 16:43:16 eli, I am some moron with no clue about anything so why would you care about my opinion anyway 16:43:51 eli: I think he's referring to the renaming of the old and introducing a new system with the same names can break existing code 16:43:56 You're certainly seem to not try and make any other impression. Please define "it" which refers to whatever you think was a bad decision. 16:44:16 eli, look you're clearly pissed off at something I said so I'm not gonna go an about it anymore 16:44:17 sjamaan: That was my first impression too, then he zigzagged away. 16:45:13 Cheshire: If there's anything that pisses me off, it's superstitions expressed as facts. 16:45:15 eli, also I'm jelous you can speak hebrew and I only know english 16:45:28 what superstitions? 16:45:30 haha 16:45:50 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 16:45:55 That (speaking hebrew) is not something to be jealous about -- at least not in this channel. 16:46:07 eli, I tried to learn hebrew once but it was too hard 16:46:25 Hebrew's hard, let's go shopping! 16:46:30 lol 16:46:30 (sorry, couldn't resist) 16:47:53 it is not superstition that incompatable API changes break existing code 16:49:13 -!- Aratsu- [n=blah@24.42.160.108] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:49:36 The superstitions are "bad stuff happens because the names are wrong" -- when in fact the goal was to make immutable cells the default for the plt implementation. Therefore, it is alluding to a change in design that would make it much more difficult to convert those thousand lines of code rendering the whole thing pretty much pointless. 16:49:40 (PLT did, in fact, had the equivalents of `icons' etc for a good while.) 16:49:45 By avoiding to face the facts that I'm talking about, you only continue to present this as a kind of a superstition. And BTW, yes -- of course the API changed -- that was the whole point, and no celever name scheme could avoid dealing with that. 16:49:48 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-159-249.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 16:50:05 As for Hebrew -- it is in most cases much simpler than English. 16:50:51 eli: PLT has a module system. Couldn't it be implemented as a separate module that defined the same names? People converting their could even use both systems together, manually renaming the imported symbols 16:51:09 s/their/their code/ 16:51:25 eli, I don't quite understand what you mean here " 16:51:30 more difficult to convert those thousand lines of code" 16:51:35 sjamaan: Yes, all these are things that could be done -- but none of them would face the real problem which is the values themselves that changed. 16:51:40 xcpt fr ll ths mssng vwls ;) 16:51:42 -!- sachael [n=uibxn@nat-wh.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has quit ["Left the dungeon"] 16:51:58 do you mean that PLT was implemented with mutable conses but never used mutation, so they replaced CONS with an immutable version? 16:52:13 eli: I don't understand why that matters 16:52:24 zbigniew: Those are kind of hard in the same way that parens in Scheme makes it hard. 16:52:30 -!- MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has left #scheme 16:53:13 Cheshire: PLT used mutable pairs, and by keeping the names, we had to make sure that the whole codebase is working with the new immutable default. 16:53:46 I've never tried, but it can't be worse than English's ridiculous orthography 16:53:50 eli, why not continue using mutable pairs in the implementation? 16:54:29 zbigniew: (Actually, one area where it makes a huge difference is for NLP -- just knowing what each word means becomes much more difficult...) 16:55:01 sjamaan: The *names* do not matter -- the issue is tha *values* -- you get an immutable pair value, and you need to write glue code if you want to deal with mutable ones. 16:55:14 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:55:32 eli: Ah, of course. You'd need a separate srfi-1 for the 'i' and 'm' versions 16:55:35 Cheshire: *That's* exactly the whole point of this -- Matthew listed several issues with mutable pairs in his blog post. 16:55:41 And every other library that accepts lists :S 16:56:01 sjamaan: Yes -- and the solution, for now, was to just move *everything* to immutable pairs. Turns out it was much easier than it looked. 16:56:23 eli, so you wanted to change from mutable CONS into using immutable ICONS -- so they basically replaced the meaning of CONS instead of editing the source code? 16:56:23 If you're not mutating all over the place it shouldn't be much of a problem indeed :) 16:56:36 eli, so basically users are suffering because the PLT implementers took a shortcut... 16:56:55 Cheshire: These reasons that Matthew talked about were nothing new -- they existed for decades. 16:56:58 Cheshire: Only users actually using mutations are suffering, I think 16:57:25 sjamaan, I'd include every single R5RS program in that.. 16:57:33 o_O 16:57:45 Cheshire: That's far from being correct. 16:58:13 Cheshire: Why? The presence of set-car! in the R5 spec doesn't mean it's also being used in a program 16:58:15 Cheshire: And in addition, see the r5rs language in PLT: you get the names "right" (= what you want them to be), and there is still a problem. 16:58:15 eli, are you saying every R5RS program that doesn't use SET-CAR! or SET-CDR! is unaffected? 16:59:03 s/a program/every program/ 16:59:12 Cheshire: Did you read that blog post that I'm talking about? 16:59:15 no 16:59:33 eli: I don't think you mentioned a URL 16:59:44 Just a second, network issues. 16:59:59 I know reasons for and against mutation... 17:00:16 I'm not saying: mutation is great everyone should use it 17:00:37 but I am saying: back compatability is great, breaking back compatability is tremendously unpragramatic 17:00:44 bbl 17:02:27 preserving backwards compatibility can lead to PITAs too though, especially if you're adding new things often, you'll end up with a complex monster no one knows how best to use, because there are a thousand different ways of doing everything 17:02:53 sometimes, breaking backwards compatibility can be very much worth it (I have no idea if this is the case here though) 17:02:56 Cheshire: http://blog.plt-scheme.org/2007/11/getting-rid-of-set-car-and-set-cdr.html 17:03:33 See also how this is a big problem for implementors and for users. 17:03:38 Judofyr [n=Judofyr@95.34.27.156.customer.cdi.no] has joined #scheme 17:03:58 And after that, see if you can come up with a better design for how to deal with the names. 17:04:24 eli, It's irrelevant because the change was already made -- another change would be two wrongs (not a right) 17:05:10 I'm not talking about undoing some change -- I'm talking about an alternative design -- or *the* alternative design that you're referring to. 17:05:30 It is an unrealistic one, and I suspect that just trying it will make it clear. 17:05:43 taking R5RS, add ICONS ICAR ICDR and whatever awesome GC changes you implement etc, stir well 17:05:51 here is what I don't suggest: 17:06:21 taking R5RS, relegating CONS CAR CDR SET-CAR! SET-CDR! to an M-prefix, and then adding ICONS ICAR ICDR under the psedonyms CONS CAR CDR 17:06:23 Cheshire: Now show me a single piece of problem that you *wouldn't* have with this solution. 17:06:53 (just let me finish reading this article) 17:06:55 In other words show me how this is different from requiring the names with your naming scheme in current plt. 17:09:22 mostly seems like scare-mongering 17:09:24 -!- reprore__ [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:10:04 *eli* sighs 17:10:23 look how awful mutation is: this code which uses mutation doesn't work 17:10:28 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 17:11:21 eli, here is another example of something solving a "problem" http://beedev.wordpress.com/2008/12/05/doing-away-with-improper-lists/ 17:11:25 If you think that these are imaginary problems after you've read that, then this conversation just evaporated. 17:11:47 eli, don't know which 'these problems' you mean? 17:12:18 eli, I am well aware people claim "Pure code is easier to reason about!" but then they don't write formal proofs 17:12:32 -!- synthase [n=synthase@c-69-243-234-165.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has quit [No route to host] 17:13:39 Cheshire: No, reasoning is not the biggest problem here. It's the *lack* of possible reasoning when your data can always change underneath you. 17:14:17 well that's nonsense, people have been doing formal proofs about algorithms that use mutation for years 17:14:25 (And that, BTW, corresponds to the ineffectiveness of contracts in the presence of mutable pairs.) 17:14:46 Cheshire: No, in fact that's very, very far from reality. 17:15:01 I guess I imagined all those graph algorithms then 17:15:24 in any case, this is irrelevant to my point. I don't want to make a stand for/against mutation/mutable conses 17:15:37 The reality -- of formal proofs -- is that in 99.9% of the cases (and that's an underestimate), people in the formal world would ignore mutation: either restrict the formal analysis to a pure subset, or assume no mutation happens to their data. 17:16:26 [When you're talking about formal proofs, and I can tell you that I'm not saying "very far" as an opinion -- but as a fact.] 17:16:51 no it's not true because you said it's true 17:17:35 No, it's true because I can assume that I know the field much better than you do. 17:17:53 like I said earlier, 17:18:07 I am some moron with no clue about anything so why would you care about my opinion anyway 17:18:13 Two cents: I don't think either of you will persuade the other of anything. 17:18:22 do you understand what I meant by that, eli? 17:18:57 Cheshire: Yes, and it is still as irrelevant as it was the first time you said it. 17:19:19 no it is relevant, You wont listen to me because you have your mind made up 17:19:31 You are better than me in everyway 17:19:44 (Riastradh: that was clear from the "tremendously stupid design desicion" opening.) 17:19:45 so if we can't talk as equals that is fine 17:20:07 I'm not going to pretend to be smarter than you or whatever though 17:20:39 Cut it out. Abusive remarks don't help. 17:20:43 Cheshire: The "I'm stupid" line of defense just doesn't work: you brought up formal reasoning as an example of something that didn't suffer from mutations, and you were wrong. 17:20:47 Riastradh, was I being abusive? 17:21:08 Curious: We already had immutable pairs; why introduce a new disjoint data type? 17:21:28 eli, no I said the usual appeal people make about pure code being easier to reason about is moot because they don't reason in either case 17:22:49 eli, If I was being "abusive" sorry 17:22:50 I can promise you that I never said that people don't reason about code! It's mutation that makes things three orders of magnitude more difficult. 17:23:19 Riastradh: I can't figure out if this was a question for me. 17:23:27 eli, for you or for anyone who wishes to opine on the subject. 17:24:53 Cheshire: Look, I really don't care for any of this unrelated verbiage: the original point I made at the beginning was -- look at the problem, see what has changed, then suggest a way to solve the problem. Your current suggestion, based purely on names, is already available in PLT, so you can see how far you get with it. 17:25:21 eli, I said a coulpe times: the mistake was already made, there's no way to rectify it now 17:25:23 Riastradh: Which were these immutable pairs? 17:25:27 But we can learn from mistakes 17:25:30 eli: (quote (a . b)) 17:25:39 Evaluate that, and you get an immutable pair. 17:25:49 (If mutation works in some Scheme system, it is only by accident.) 17:26:15 Riastradh: Right, but it's very limited -- map over that and you get a mutable result... 17:26:33 eli, I wouldn't call it unrelated verbiage though it pretty much describes how the conv. was going 17:27:12 wow, eli sure has a lotta energy. 17:27:24 sometimes making things explicit can give a lot of understanding 17:27:38 Cheshire: The point is: you say it can be done better. Tell us how, even if it cannot be implemented in PLT, it might help others in understanding what you mean 17:28:00 offby1: I'm just pretending... 17:28:14 That's true, eli. But then one could replace MAP by one that maps immutable lists to immutable lists (saving the old MAP in a legacy module/language just like SET-CAR! and SET-CDR! are saved now). 17:28:32 sjamaan, what's unclear about: breaking back compatability is unpragmatic 17:28:53 offby1, he probably has a paper submission due or something. Procrastination is an amazing source of energy. Now if only we could turn that energy into electricity... 17:29:01 sjamaan, if we twiddled around with the names of things /again/ it would be bad a second time 17:29:39 implementors are doing this again and again though.. I wish people would see it 17:29:54 Daemmerung [n=goetter@64.146.161.228] has joined #scheme 17:30:01 Riastradh: That was raised at some point, the only thing I remember about that is that things can get pretty bad (and inefficient) when mutable and immutable pairs are mixed. 17:30:16 Are there any records of discussions about it, eli? 17:30:51 Riastradh: Not somewhere that I know of, but so far Matthew has been happy to reply to such questions. 17:30:56 something like (APPEND LIST-1 LIST-2) seems difficult, if LIST-1 is immutable, but LIST-2 is mutable what is the result? 17:31:07 -!- Fulax [n=cyprien@pdpc/supporter/student/cnicolas] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:31:30 That's probably not allowed 17:31:33 Yes, these kinds of problems. 17:31:57 (In reference to what Riastradh is talking about, not wat happens now in PLT.) 17:32:40 oh and incompatability further fragments/distances the other scheme implementations 17:32:48 not that that really matters, but something to think about 17:33:15 (it can be good or bad dependening on your view) 17:35:25 Cheshire: I don't think, that immutable pairs distanced implementations further, that r6rs 17:36:47 *foof* thinks peoples opinions on immutability are immutable 17:37:05 foof: +1 17:37:27 :) 17:37:41 mutable conses were good enough for my granddaddy, by god 17:37:53 *Daemmerung* thinks that changing nicks is rarely a good idea 17:38:08 You should have seen my reaction to the immutable pairs thing. 17:38:11 *offby1* nicks Daemmerung's opinion on nicks 17:38:14 My opinion mutated. 17:38:15 ha, now it's miiiiine 17:38:25 (GRAB) 17:38:49 heh 17:38:56 rudybot: don't give Daemmerung back his opinion 17:38:56 *offby1: ? 17:39:01 you know what I meant 17:40:25 Daemmerung, why would it matter 17:40:42 rudybot: ping 17:40:42 eli: pong 17:41:49 synthase [n=synthase@c-69-243-234-165.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:42:17 oh yeah, I forgot about that 17:45:33 dean [n=dean@adsl-75-0-228-224.dsl.crchtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 17:47:10 are there any scheme implementations with network support 17:47:44 dean: Plenty. 17:47:58 which interpreter do you reccomend 17:48:23 I'm a fan of PLT scheme, as (I suspect) is eli 17:48:29 (just a crazy guess) 17:49:00 I think it would be hard to find a Scheme without network support :) 17:49:05 I have been known to use it, on occasions. 17:49:09 I was just going to say that. 17:49:17 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:49:18 reprore__ [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 17:49:21 I bet scm doesn't have it. 17:49:24 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:49:31 certainly tinyscheme doesn't have it. (Yes, I know; it's not really scheme) 17:49:40 Pocket Scheme? 17:49:56 ha, it is to laugh. Who would write such a silly thing 17:49:59 *offby1* glances around nervously. 17:50:09 That sentence was meant for dean :) 17:50:12 sjamaan: I think that wouldn't be hard at all. 17:50:17 Even SCM and pocketscheme have network support. 17:50:26 oh, I didn't know that. 17:50:43 when we say "network support", what do we mean? Do we mean they have procedures like "open-network-stream" or something? 17:50:46 sjamaan: SIOD :) 17:51:11 haha 17:51:16 SIOD FTW 17:51:25 Clearly `network support' means a complete ethernet and TCP/IP stack, as well as device drivers for a large collection of commercially available ethernet hardware. 17:51:31 I assume the OQ wanted LU6.2 17:51:55 Yeah, accessing TCP/IP 17:52:06 clearly. 17:52:09 *eli* beats up firefox 17:52:18 dean, please be precise. What problem are you trying to solve, of which you believe `network support' to be a subproblem? 17:52:26 eli: don't, it has relatives who are "connected" 17:52:52 meanburrito920_ [n=John@adsl-76-236-79-174.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 17:52:54 inetd! 17:52:58 offby1: Too late. It already has several black eyes. 17:53:20 damn, your life's not worth a plugged nickel, ow. 17:53:22 now. 17:53:46 pitui [n=pitui@c-76-98-192-104.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:53:58 *sjamaan* wonders what a "plugged nickel" is 17:54:24 I want to sond a POST request to a server that returns a CSV resonse 17:54:32 *eli* puts a baseball bat under his pillow 17:54:45 sjamaan: I don't know myself, but it's the proper cliché for this context. 17:54:52 I'm going to invoke my extra-sensory perception, dean, and fill in a lot of blanks that you just left out, by reading your mind. 17:54:56 Are you ready? 17:55:25 *eli* hands out popcorn to the crowd 17:55:44 *klutometis* hooks up tivo 17:55:47 *offby1* munches expectantly 17:55:52 *Daemmerung* volunteers to be the lovely on-stage assistant 17:55:56 *offby1* phones his friends and tells them to watch 17:56:26 mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 17:56:30 *klutometis* live blogs in twitter 17:56:31 nivya [n=nivya@c-24-1-184-2.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:56:43 j/k 17:56:52 Euuw. 17:57:02 `I want to talk with an internet host over reliable stream connections using the hypertext transfer protocol, and specifically I want to submit HTTP POST requests and read the responses which return a response in [murky here -- I think regular expressions are involved, or at least lots of commas, but I can't make out that last bit].' 17:57:06 *offby1* pelts klutometis with rotten fruit, which he brought with him for just such an eventuality 17:57:08 ...er. 17:57:23 Excuse me: `...and I want to read the responses from the server in the format of [...].' 17:57:27 Wow! How does he do that?? 17:57:35 it's a trick of some kind, I'm sure 17:57:37 watch his hands 17:57:38 *sjamaan* phones Uri Geller 17:57:46 I think we found his successor 17:57:53 -!- forcer [n=forcer@e179194232.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:58:01 *eli* hands over a Hebrew dictionary to sjamaan 17:59:45 pfo [n=pfo@chello084114049188.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #scheme 18:00:25 forcer [n=forcer@e177138125.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 18:00:37 who did what now? 18:01:33 Riastradh is demonstrating ten somersets he's undertaken, on solid groun. 18:01:35 -!- hark [n=strider@hark.slew.org] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:01:35 ground. 18:01:52 Being some time in preparation, a splendid time is guaranteed for all. 18:02:46 can anyone figure out what's wrong with this picture? http://site.uri-geller.com/images/1111.jpg 18:03:12 not me. 18:03:40 damn, that picture of Mr Geller makes him look young. He's gotta be in his 60s or 70s though. 18:03:43 the clock is at the wrong time, it's actually 18:03 18:03:48 hark [n=strider@hark.slew.org] has joined #scheme 18:03:54 perhaps his Sidekick Powers keep him young looking 18:04:09 oh, I see what Riastradh did! 18:04:12 that's very clever 18:04:41 scared dean off, though, which is bad. 18:04:51 A real pro magician never scares away his audience. 18:04:51 Is `11.11' supposed to be read as a time, six minutes off from what the clock shows? 18:05:39 The clock has two equal-length hands 18:05:49 i am tired 18:06:06 Is there something magical about the hour and minute hands forming a right angle that we're supposed to desire? Ain't working for me. 18:07:04 over here on the east coast it appears to be 1306 18:07:08 Oh, this is rich: 18:07:11 After in 1997 trying to help Coca Cola League 2 football club Exeter City win a crucial end of season game by placing energy-infused crystals behind the goals at Exeter's ground (Exeter would eventually lose the game 51) he was appointed co-chairman of the club in 2002. The club would be relegated to the Nationwide Conference in May 2003, where they were to remain for five years. He has since severed formal ties with the club. 18:07:35 energy infused 18:07:37 East Coast hackas be frontin' 18:07:48 *Elly* ...fronts? 18:08:28 -!- flourscent [n=floursce@118.176.71.148] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:09:02 offby1: I don't think he's *that* old. 18:09:53 Actually, he is... 18:12:07 I figured he became famous in the US around 1973, was probably in his mid-twenties then, so that's about 61 18:13:42 -!- nivya [n=nivya@c-24-1-184-2.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has left #scheme 18:14:09 ken-p [n=unknown@84.92.70.37] has joined #scheme 18:14:12 hello clock skew! One of my servers was off by 497 seconds 18:14:19 cknapp [i=408367f2@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-e6ec6e1a8592db12] has joined #scheme 18:14:30 wow that's almost 500 seconds 18:15:33 -!- cknapp [i=408367f2@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-e6ec6e1a8592db12] has left #scheme 18:15:54 -!- dean [n=dean@adsl-75-0-228-224.dsl.crchtx.sbcglobal.net] has left #scheme 18:16:12 I think dean got scared :) 18:19:58 Do all proficient schemers gain telephatic powers after all? 18:20:35 s/telephatic/telepathic/ 18:21:48 Elly: surely you use ntp? 18:22:07 nivya [n=nivya@c-24-1-184-2.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:23:07 offby1: Just that in Israel he was a "wonderkid" for a long time... 18:24:34 What is a "CSV response," anyway? 18:24:38 *Daemmerung* wonders 18:24:48 -!- masm [n=user@89.155.110.17] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:24:55 A response body with text/csv content-type? 18:25:42 CSV is commonly used for export/import of data between systems 18:25:46 I believe so. So, dean wanted something like libcurl binding 18:25:56 ...I suppose 18:26:02 (even though nobody really agrees on what the syntax of "CSV" really looks like) 18:26:03 Or maybe Certified Server Validation. 18:31:12 choas [n=lars@p5B0DD849.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 18:32:49 -!- gerard [n=gerard@124-197-41-171.callplus.net.nz] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 18:33:28 -!- synthase [n=synthase@c-69-243-234-165.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:33:42 synthase [n=synthase@c-69-243-234-165.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:37:31 -!- peter_12 [n=peter@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [] 18:38:00 -!- barney [n=bernhard@p549A1FB3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:38:40 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 18:39:20 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:40:00 -!- aaco [n=aaco@unaffiliated/aaco] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:40:12 peter_12 [n=peter@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 18:42:54 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 18:47:50 jah [n=jah@194.138.72-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #scheme 18:50:01 -!- a-s [n=user@92.80.91.38] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:50:22 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:52:13 -!- reprore__ [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:55:31 -!- morphir [n=morphir@217.168.81.9] has quit [] 19:00:10 -!- minus273 [n=anncmy@rezo-156-21.ens.fr] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:10:02 -!- meanburrito920_ [n=John@adsl-76-236-79-174.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:11:33 -!- Daemmerung [n=goetter@64.146.161.228] has quit ["Smoove out."] 19:11:58 geckosenator [n=sean@71.237.94.78] has joined #scheme 19:25:03 -!- nivya [n=nivya@c-24-1-184-2.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:26:56 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 19:28:14 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:28:23 GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-236-161.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:29:44 -!- GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-236-161.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:32:53 -!- jah [n=jah@194.138.72-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:36:31 -!- synthase [n=synthase@c-69-243-234-165.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:38:56 -!- aneqrs [n=andreas@c83-253-104-206.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:40:08 aneqrs [n=andreas@c83-253-104-206.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 19:43:06 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-154-52.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:43:31 -!- tr3 [n=tr3@host28-43-dynamic.183-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:44:56 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 19:47:48 X-Scale [i=email@89-180-76-121.net.novis.pt] has joined #scheme 19:50:53 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-154-52.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 20:04:28 incubot: "dum de dum" 20:06:18 incubot: mutable or immutable cons? 20:06:20 uri.scm REALLY wants you to have immutable pairs, for example 20:06:46 incubot: uri geller? 20:08:02 rudybot: give kryptiskt "en semla" 20:08:03 kryptiskt: mejja has given you a value, use (GRAB) in an eval to get it (case sensitive) 20:08:27 rudybot: eval (GRAB) 20:08:27 kryptiskt: ; Value: "en semla" 20:09:18 mmmm, whipped cream 20:11:46 elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has joined #scheme 20:13:22 incubot: semla 20:13:24 : um, is that a 'berliner'. in sweden we'd call that 'semla' (traditionally eaten on the last tuesday in lent, before passover/easter, though nowadays the cafe's start selling them in maybe one or two months before that ..) 20:16:32 -!- Mr-Cat [n=Mr-Cat@bahirkin1507.static.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:17:59 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-159-249.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:22:27 Mr-Cat [n=Mr-Cat@bahirkin1507.static.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 20:27:04 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 20:29:29 nivya [n=nivya@c-24-1-184-2.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:32:30 aaco [n=aaco@201-95-212-189.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #scheme 20:35:06 -!- Mr-Cat [n=Mr-Cat@bahirkin1507.static.corbina.ru] has left #scheme 20:35:31 Mr-Cat [n=Mr-Cat@bahirkin1507.static.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 20:39:10 *arcfide* just reread the logs on mutable cons... 20:40:13 sachael [n=uibxn@nat-wh.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has joined #scheme 20:41:13 what is the extension of Scheme source files? .ss or .scm? 20:48:29 ktne [n=ktne@unaffiliated/ktne] has joined #scheme 20:48:32 hello 20:48:47 anyone here knows a human readable paper on CPS transformation? From a C-like language to CPS form. The papers i have found are quite dense. 20:52:06 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 20:54:41 yaroslav_h [n=yaroslav@89-109-22-97.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has joined #scheme 20:56:34 sachael: .ss hasn't been used since WWII 21:00:24 -!- Modius__ [n=Modius@adsl-68-91-192-214.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:00:55 Modius__ [n=Modius@adsl-68-91-192-214.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 21:09:10 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 21:09:11 -!- Mr-Cat [n=Mr-Cat@bahirkin1507.static.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:11:03 Mr-Cat [n=Mr-Cat@bahirkin1507.static.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 21:12:03 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:12:53 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 21:15:45 synthase [n=synthase@c-69-243-234-165.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:25:02 Arelius [n=Indy@netblock-68-183-230-134.dslextreme.com] has joined #scheme 21:33:36 Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-214-24.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:38:47 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:42:42 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 21:47:24 Cowmoo` [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-214-24.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:50:52 -!- jmo- [n=jmo-@83.233.243.145] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:52:50 -!- Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-214-24.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:00:39 fwd_ [n=fwd@80-219-193-14.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 22:02:37 -!- Cowmoo` is now known as Cowmoo 22:06:17 ejs [n=eugen@94-248-0-181.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #scheme 22:07:56 tr3 [n=tr3@host28-43-dynamic.183-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 22:12:33 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 22:25:00 -!- aneqrs [n=andreas@c83-253-104-206.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [] 22:27:01 Peppicatred [i=IceChat7@58.163.138.6] has joined #scheme 22:27:48 whats this chat for? 22:28:01 -!- tizoc [n=tizoc@unaffiliated/tizoc] has quit ["ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net"] 22:28:24 tizoc [n=user@unaffiliated/tizoc] has joined #scheme 22:30:09 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B056AD4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:31:55 -!- choas [n=lars@p5B0DD849.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 22:32:17 whats this chat for? 22:32:24 not for you 22:33:02 no i mean what is the purpose of this room 22:33:25 Peppicatred, look at the topic 22:34:10 yeah read the topic, it doesnt make much sense. 22:34:41 -!- Peppicatred [i=IceChat7@58.163.138.6] has left #scheme 22:34:52 Good decision. 22:34:58 huh 22:36:49 Anyone care to take a look at a problem I am finally getting around to understanding? I've just been statically linking in the kernel.o of Chez Scheme with my sockets C stub. It's time I fixed that. 22:37:05 22:37:33 -!- sachael [n=uibxn@nat-wh.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has quit ["Left the dungeon"] 22:38:02 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 22:40:42 -!- tr3 [n=tr3@host28-43-dynamic.183-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:46:17 -!- ejs [n=eugen@94-248-0-181.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:47:03 jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless46.wireless.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 22:47:53 -!- nivya [n=nivya@c-24-1-184-2.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:51:43 -!- yaroslav_h is now known as yaroslav_h|sleep 22:54:31 morphir [n=morphir@217.168.81.9] has joined #scheme 22:59:34 offby1: I just did; that's how I realized it was so skewed! 23:05:51 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:09:59 arcfide, why are you not running `cc ... -o sockets.so sockets.o kernel.o' or `cc ... -lkernel -o sockets.so sockets.o'? 23:18:37 -!- exexex [n=chatzill@85.102.129.123] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:24:41 -!- elmex [i=elmex@ist.m8geil.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:24:44 elmex [i=elmex@ist.m8geil.de] has joined #scheme 23:25:26 Riastradh: Well, I don't want to link statically against the kernel.o object. 23:26:19 I actually tried this, too: 'cc -shared -g -fpic -DPIC -Xlinker -Bdynamic -o sockets.so sockets.c kernel.so'. 23:26:25 -!- ktne [n=ktne@unaffiliated/ktne] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:26:28 And that works. 23:26:39 But it doesn't load properly. There is just some error in the loading. 23:26:50 But it doesn't complain about missing symbols. 23:29:49 mns [n=user@c-76-119-251-7.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:33:11 How does one sort a list like: ( ("item1" . "value1") ("item2" . "value2") ("item3" . "value3") ("item4" . "value4") ... ("itemN" . "valueN")) so that it is in order of the item ? 23:34:07 mns: This isn't homework, is it? 23:34:12 lol .. no .. 23:34:34 mns: Use SORT or LIST-SORT. 23:35:43 I was trying to write a cgi script using scheme, simple stuff like printing the CGI environment, but noticed it didn't do it in a sorted fashion like Perl or PHP. 23:36:47 Well, in chicken sort seems to accept 'less' function as an argument, so, sorting should not be a problem 23:36:52 arcfide pasted "Sockets for Chez Scheme" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/75082 23:36:55 So...putting aside that puny little linking issue, does anyone care to have a look at my GET-ADDR-INFO implementation for my Chez Sockets Library and explain to me why it's returning the equivalent of a LOCAL socket type with an INTERNET address? 23:37:09 arcfide annotated #75082 with "The C Side." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/75082#1 23:37:36 Btw: I've noticed, that scheme specs (including srfis) don't include 'sort' routine. Am I right? 23:37:50 specbot: r5rs sort 23:37:50 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for sort. 23:37:57 specbot: r6rs list-sort 23:38:13 Mr-Cat: Have you checked SRFI-1? 23:38:22 yes 23:38:53 It's mentioned in section 'Not included in this library' :) 23:39:08 Hm 23:39:24 srfi-95 23:40:06 has sort, merge and stuff 23:43:06 you can always pipe to sort(1) 23:50:41 the ui for dr scheme has become more complicated and confusing? 23:51:42 emma: Then dump it! 23:51:45 Is that a question? :) 23:51:59 emma: Surely Emacs can't be more complicated. ;-) 23:52:03 hehe 23:52:19 emma: Or, live like the crazies do, and use NEdit or Vi. :-) 23:52:24 here's an example.. I want to save my code... 23:52:26 drscheme has nice repl, much better that with windows's cmd 23:53:06 *arcfide* entices emma to come to the Dark Side. 23:53:24 raikov [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has joined #scheme 23:53:45 here's what I see in the File menu... Revert, Save Definitions, Save Definitions As.. Save Other > with more options... 23:53:48 arcfide: Vim is nice too, but afaik lacks proper repl integration 23:54:19 Why does it say save definitions? 23:54:26 Is that supposed to be the same as saving the code? 23:54:29 because your code is a bunch of definitions 23:54:40 Mr-Cat: Well, proper REPL integration is all well and good, I suppose. I use good old select + paste. :-) 23:54:47 my code is also a bunch of words.. it doesn't say 'save words..' 23:55:24 Is this unique to Scheme that you call your source code 'definitions' ? 23:55:31 I think it should say "Save As" not "Save Definitions As" because some code in the definitions window is not a definition at all. Like if you put ((lambda (a) a) 'a) in there, nothing was defined, but it's still valid. 23:55:36 I don't call my code that, because my code is not all definitions. 23:55:45 It's unique to drscheme 23:55:49 emma: You may try to ping eli, I think he can answer your question. 23:55:58 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:56:15 emma: I guess the reason is that you can also save the interactions from the REPL 23:56:20 I am inclined to expect a pedagogically oriented answer; maybe it has something to do with HtDP? 23:56:24 [I didn't see a question so I cannot answer.] 23:56:27 kniu [n=kniu@CMU-284828.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 23:56:31 I think it's confusing. It made me think,... Hmm. I just want to save what I've done.. where is that option... 23:56:52 eli: emma asks, why 'save' is called 'save definitions' in drscheme 23:57:25 I think, that's the question 23:57:27 Because, in DrScheme, it is called "the definitions window". 23:57:36 with so many different choices for saving it makes you wonder which one lets you save your work. 23:57:57 emma: Try the one that you get by hitting Ctrl+S 23:58:17 emma: Or the friendly-looking button above that says "Save" 23:58:22 Does this look correct? I am getting stack traces for it: (sort (getenv) #:key car string srfi-95 can be included in scm using (require 'sort) if you've got SLIB installed. 23:59:36 eli: is mzscheme the command line way to get the same Scheme that DrScheme uses? 23:59:46 emma: yes it is. 23:59:55 DrScheme uses MzScheme