00:01:14 incubot: how many eggs fit in a chicken? 00:01:16 So far all I have is http://www.call-with-current-continuation.org/eggs/utf8.html 00:02:18 incubot, which is better -- UTF-32 or UCS-4? 00:02:21 #sciptology is a better place 00:02:33 incubot, farewell, my friends! I go on to a better place. 00:02:35 I drew some friends last weekend: 00:03:15 incubot, the second of your friends is a 404. 00:03:17 ...on second thought, hang on a minute. 00:03:24 incubot, hang on to what? 00:03:26 hang on 00:03:31 incubot, but to what? 00:03:33 What else interests you? 00:03:44 incubot, I want to know what to hang onto! 00:03:45 I used to shuffle by gluing a random number onto each element, sorting by those numbers, then stripping them off. 00:05:41 Hey! 00:05:46 that was me, I'm sure of it. 00:06:00 *offby1* glowers at incubot, and fingers his RIAA hotline 00:06:05 -!- dzhus[afk] is now known as dzhus 00:06:38 -!- drdo`` is now known as drdo 00:07:45 incubot, that was offby1! 00:07:49 Rlastradh: I'm reading the documentation. Not sure if I'm that in need of it to write the list. 00:08:03 incubot, what are you not that in need of? 00:08:05 flesh? Pfeh. My code doesn't need no steenkin' flesh. 00:08:25 I think I'll stop there. 00:08:30 *Riastradh* backs away slowly on the bench. 00:10:37 so simple, yet so amusing 00:11:26 -!- drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:18:55 bweaver [n=bweaver@c-67-161-236-94.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:19:22 -!- bweaver [n=bweaver@c-67-161-236-94.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:28:17 eli` [n=eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 00:28:26 offby1: ping 00:38:03 r2q2 [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:39:37 *offby1* jerks awake 00:39:42 eli`: pong 00:39:47 back in the USSA? 00:41:02 offby1: No, back in the now-even-noisier place. 00:41:42 offby1: In any case, just a quick comment: mailing bugs@plt-scheme.org (which I just see that you did with your report re rudybot) is not really useful. 00:42:11 (It lands in a place where it needs to be authorized specifically -- due to spam issues and lack of scriptology.) 00:42:31 *eli`* wonders if "USSA" was intentional... 00:42:41 Yes, it was. 00:43:17 He could have used VNC, for example. 00:43:45 No, he used the White Album. 00:45:06 I wasn't aware of "back in the" being rare enough to not be used without referring to the beatles... 00:49:09 Armageddon00 [n=danking@c-76-24-230-228.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:49:14 if I have (define (foo bar)) (...)) and then I later do (define (bar x y) (...)), will there be a conflict between the two uses of bar? 00:49:38 No. The name BAR will have different meanings in different places. 00:49:42 eli`: I can never remember which method of contacting is used for which purpose ... so I just spams 'em all :-| 00:49:44 In different lexical scopes, to be precise. 00:49:52 thanks 00:50:00 -!- CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-61-150-59.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:50:07 Those Utah girls really knock me out. 00:50:16 See? 00:52:04 eli`: so here's a vague, ill-thought-out whine. Sometimes I point my web browser at file:///home/erich/.plt-scheme/latest/doc/index.html ... which allows me access to all the documentation, including that for PLaneT packages that I've installed ... 00:52:46 ... but sometimes when I search, it takes me to a URL that looks like file:///usr/local/stow/plt/share/plt/doc/reference/index.html ... and if I then do a search from -that- page, it won't find stuff in docs from PLaneT packages. 00:54:18 -!- proqesi [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 00:59:47 Wait is there an echo in the channel? 00:59:50 LOL 01:01:26 Does everyone else see text duplicated twice? 01:01:31 *offby1* stares blankly 01:01:42 -!- r2q2 [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:01:57 r2q2 [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:02:47 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 01:10:09 -!- dzhus [n=user@95-24-131-111.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:11:48 *Elly* attempts to digest the PLT docs for define-syntax and dies 01:12:16 Elly try other documentation on define-syntax 01:12:36 -!- lelf [n=lelf@217.118.90.155] has quit ["used jmIrc"] 01:12:41 Elly : http://www.xs4all.nl/~hipster/lib/scheme/gauche/define-syntax-primer.txt 01:12:42 suggestions? 01:12:46 thanks 01:19:06 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:20:08 -!- underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:20:13 orgy_ [n=ratm_@pD9FFDD27.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 01:20:42 underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 01:24:35 -!- orgy` [n=ratm_@pD9FFFFEA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:25:32 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-115.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 01:26:34 offby1: that's related to the purpose of the user-local directory thing -- those pages save a cookie in your browser telling it where to go to when you do a search. 01:27:15 offby1: My guess is that you somehow messed up getting that cookie with your `latest' link, so it just uses the search page from the installation, which doesn't include the planet docs. 01:28:24 -!- Armageddon00 [n=danking@c-76-24-230-228.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 01:30:59 hmm 01:31:30 so that suggests that the only way I can get all the searches to work is to invoke (help) from mzcsheme (or Help Desk)? bah 01:31:45 lemme flush cookies and see what happens 01:33:43 So I deleted all the local cookies, typed (help) in mzscheme, and typed "run-tests" in the search box. No hits. I then pointed the browser at file:///home/erich/.plt-scheme/latest/doc/index.html, typed "run-tests" in the search box, and got the hit I'd hoped for: an entry for schemeunit 01:47:37 Armageddon00 [n=danking@c-76-24-230-228.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:48:09 offby1, plt-help seems a little faster way to get to the help page 01:48:24 wy [n=wy@c-67-176-147-116.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:48:45 -!- hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@gateway.publicvpn.net] has quit [] 01:49:46 -!- underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:50:06 underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 02:01:45 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B054545.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:02:12 offby1: Don't type (help) -- run plt-help like jonrafkind recommended. (The former jumps directly to the docs for help, IIRC, so you won't get the cookie, if this is the case, then it should probably be considered a bug) 02:05:27 Armagedd1n00 [n=danking@c-76-24-230-228.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:05:58 r2q2`` [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:08:53 -!- r2q2` [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Operation timed out] 02:09:02 -!- r2q2 [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:11:27 -!- hark [n=strider@hark.slew.org] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:12:42 -!- Armagedd1n00 [n=danking@c-76-24-230-228.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 02:12:55 -!- orgy_ [n=ratm_@pD9FFDD27.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:13:35 Armagedd1n00 [n=danking@c-76-24-230-228.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:21:02 annodomini_ [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:22:36 -!- oSand [n=heartles@118-93-73-159.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has left #scheme 02:23:36 Armagedd2n00 [n=danking@c-76-24-230-228.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:26:24 -!- Armagedd2n00 [n=danking@c-76-24-230-228.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:26:29 -!- Armagedd1n00 [n=danking@c-76-24-230-228.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:26:29 -!- Armageddon00 [n=danking@c-76-24-230-228.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:34:02 -!- r2q2`` [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:37:23 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-61-150-59.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:42:01 glorybox [n=ssinkovs@195.238.191.213] has joined #scheme 02:43:44 Armageddon00 [n=danking@c-76-24-230-228.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:44:18 -!- Armageddon00 [n=danking@c-76-24-230-228.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:47:54 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Client Quit] 02:48:31 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #scheme 02:49:56 jberg [n=moo@107.80-202-161.nextgentel.com] has joined #scheme 02:50:20 what happens if you do set! on a list? does it owerwrite the whole list or (car lst) or what? 02:51:10 jberg: what do you mean by a list? 02:51:19 A variable that points to a list? 02:51:48 yes 02:52:11 then the viable will just point to whatever you set! it. 02:52:24 The list remains the same. 02:53:44 so set! only change what the variable points too 02:53:45 ? 02:53:57 hm yes 02:54:54 should play with it in the repl shell of the scheme you are using. 02:55:29 well it's not my code actually and i don't have a scheme repl handy 02:55:44 Define on variable to point a given list, then define other variable to point to the previous variable, change the car of one of the variables, then set one of the viables to something else, etc. 02:56:09 at each step pretty-print both vars 02:56:32 be careful not to end up with some circular structure :) 02:56:34 defining a variable to point to a variable is somewhat awkward, of course. 02:57:07 To point to the value of another variable. 02:58:22 hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #scheme 02:58:43 before sending a var a message 02:58:48 i want to check first whether it's a function 02:58:56 how can i do this? 02:59:27 procedure? 03:03:10 ah, that's the right name; thanks 03:04:31 greyface [n=greyface@247-115.77-83.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #scheme 03:05:11 Armageddon00 [n=danking@c-76-24-230-228.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:05:15 I know, wierd isnt it? What are the odds they would name it `procedure?' 03:08:46 not like it's a procedure or anything 03:16:20 johnnowak [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 03:17:03 -!- Armageddon00 [n=danking@c-76-24-230-228.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:20:30 hml's confusion is justifiable. "procedure" is full of old dust. 03:21:22 ? 03:22:52 It's an old term, "function" is much more common -- and would have been more appropriate given Scheme's bias. 03:23:30 davirus [n=davirus@c-24-5-198-113.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:24:12 It's specifically making a distinction between functions and procedures. 03:25:06 I don't know what you mean by "it's". 03:25:08 -!- wy [n=wy@c-67-176-147-116.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:25:18 And I don't know what distinction you're talking about. 03:26:19 -!- davirus [n=davirus@c-24-5-198-113.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:26:32 function is the femaile, procedure is the male 03:26:33 davirus [n=davirus@c-24-5-198-113.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:26:34 "It's" == the choice of the name procedure. 03:26:59 -!- davirus [n=davirus@c-24-5-198-113.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #scheme 03:27:02 Function refers to the mathematical definition of function, which has no side-effects. 03:27:12 Procedures allow side-effects. 03:27:30 well obviously! 03:29:23 This is not a distinction that is done in "Scheme" (the culture). 03:29:27 The common thing to say is that "procedure" is the syntactic description of a process, and "function" is what it computes. 03:29:55 In any case, both distinctions are a poor excuse for punishing us with "procedure". 03:30:49 And the real reason for that, IMO, is obvious: it ("Scheme") is ancient. 03:31:01 -!- gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:31:37 mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 03:33:55 ... 03:34:31 As opposed to more moden languages like C which use the term "function." 03:34:54 at least this isn't BASIC, or we'd have to call it subprocedure, and not allow it to return a value. 03:37:19 BASIC supported simple functions: DEFFN X(Y)=3*Y 03:38:29 eli`: I prefer the name procedure myself. 03:38:46 (at least as of commodore-64 basic, and I believe going into gw-basic; certainly in qbasic/quickbasic era it was common) 03:39:55 BASIC said a function returned a value, whereas a subprocedure did not. Was very confusing... 03:40:02 incubot: 6510 03:40:39 I always heard subroutine, but I don't know what the official expansion of GOSUB was :) 03:40:39 Like it or not, Pascal's distinction of "procedure" vs "function" became the more known one, which makes "procedure" a bad name; like it or not, most modern languages (and probably all functional and semi-functional ones) use "function". 03:49:13 -!- johnnowak [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 03:54:16 -!- underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has quit [] 04:02:30 johnnowak [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 04:02:38 elmex_ [n=elmex@e180065012.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 04:04:13 lambda [n=lambda@c-24-5-198-113.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:12:28 eli`: aha! running "plt-help" from the command line does what I need. 04:16:15 bweaver [n=bweaver@c-67-161-236-94.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:16:31 -!- bweaver [n=bweaver@c-67-161-236-94.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:17:33 -!- elmex [n=elmex@e180065232.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:17:35 -!- elmex_ is now known as elmex 04:20:04 amca [n=amca@CPE-121-208-81-104.qld.bigpond.net.au] has joined #scheme 04:34:26 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw604176.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 04:35:09 -!- mfredrickson [n=mfredric@c-98-212-171-158.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:48:30 -!- kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:07:32 -!- Modius [n=Modius@davidp4.lnk.telstra.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:11:31 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:18:49 -!- greyface [n=greyface@247-115.77-83.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [] 05:27:34 -!- tjafk [n=timj@e176203111.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:27:54 tjafk [n=timj@e176220156.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 05:31:46 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:38:43 bweaver [n=bweaver@c-67-161-236-94.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:41:33 cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:41:45 hey 05:42:07 do you guys know any good scheme videos out there? 05:43:40 cads: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yu_moia-oVI 05:44:01 OK, don't go there. 05:44:36 oh you bitch! :S 05:44:39 :D 05:45:34 cads: http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/ 05:46:14 never gonna zip you up; never gonna cdr down 05:48:27 *offby1* slaps zbigniew upside the haid 05:56:52 -!- a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 06:08:06 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 06:08:22 la la la 06:10:49 yep 06:14:20 -!- bweaver [n=bweaver@c-67-161-236-94.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [] 06:15:48 -!- jinho [n=jinho@user-387gl9p.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [] 06:16:03 incubot: sixty 06:16:05 I'm not sure you can request that the two threads be alternated every sixty seconds, but I'm not intimately familiar with PLT's thread system. 06:16:13 so what's Schemy? 06:18:20 incubot: eleventy 06:18:23 ; Value: eleventy-nine 06:18:27 creepy 06:18:32 incubot: mumblage 06:18:34 Some time ago I heard some mumblage that R6RS might include support for weak pairs. 06:18:39 incubot: incontinent 06:18:41 One should not stand on the shoulders of giants if one is incontinent. 06:18:46 incubot: snotulosity 06:18:48 I like "semi-semantic" names: "Snotulosity" e.g. 06:18:51 *offby1* backs away slowly 06:18:56 er... 06:18:57 incubot: unpossible 06:18:59 unpossible 06:19:13 incubot: antidefatigablenessless 06:19:20 thank God. 06:19:32 incubot: unimatic 06:19:34 Unicode is Unimatic! 06:19:42 incubot: kwan 06:19:44 Oh yeah, Ti Kwan Leep: http://www.webguys.com/pdavis/karate/tikwanleep.html 06:19:56 -!- foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:19:57 incubot: hurkle 06:20:07 foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 06:20:21 I felt sure that was a hit. 06:20:21 *whew* 06:20:21 some day I gotta get off my lazy ass and steal that feature. 06:20:30 incubot: murkle 06:20:37 incubot: merkle 06:20:43 incubot: merkin muffley 06:20:45 BTW, I may be a Merkin (nominally) but I have been using Celsius degrees above. 06:20:53 incubot: mertz 06:20:56 incubot: splatterfest 06:21:08 this is like a Rorschach test. 06:21:39 klutometis's disk is rapidly approaching its MTBF 06:22:07 why -- because you're sneaking up on it, wielding a sledgehammer? 06:22:26 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw604176.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:22:47 incubot: I want to be your sledgehammer 06:22:49 try applying a sledgehammer, repeatedly if necessary. 06:25:05 -!- dudrenov [n=user@c-69-181-124-154.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:25:14 dudrenov [n=user@c-69-181-124-154.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:26:46 -!- dudrenov [n=user@c-69-181-124-154.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #scheme 06:34:00 -!- annodomini_ [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 06:35:23 -!- Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 06:40:22 incubot: i saw my ph.d. advisor at a gun show today; it was a bizarre nexus 06:40:24 Coitus, hiatus, impetus, nexus 06:41:08 incubot: Tropic of Cancer 06:41:10 it was lonely and died of colon cancer... 06:41:13 incubot: indeed; and partisan politics have turned the 2nd-amendment-sensitive into a price-hiking frenzy 06:41:13 yow 06:41:15 It means 'battle frenzy,' roughly. 06:41:35 klutometis: how does it decide which of our words to look up? 06:41:52 incubot, how do you decide which of our words to look up? 06:41:54 some of this family of libraries gets very complicated, deeper-down. i'm trying to decide whether to go with this family or just implement my own simple variation on oleg's pre-post-order 06:42:15 incubot, perhaps we could statistically analyze your responses and guess at your method. 06:42:16 offby1: there are some rough heuristics for "interesting" words; of these, it chooses the least frequent by log-biased random sampling 06:42:17 you know, statistically speaking, he's probably right :) 06:42:37 incubot, frob grovel full lexical mumble. 06:42:39 How does this syntax look for the grovel specification? 06:42:53 klutometis: yeah,I saw the log-weighted random thingy. 06:43:13 as far as I can tell, an "interesting" word is any word other than the nick of the person speaking. 06:44:03 and more than three letters 06:44:06 ok 06:44:11 incubot, it is frightening how often you quote me. Shirley, I can't be all that much more `interesting' than others in the channel. 06:44:13 some Scheme systems (like MzScheme, Bigloo, and several others) use a ridiculously slow implementation of CWCC that simply copies the stack. 06:44:20 stop calling him etc. 06:45:04 incubot, cease your base imitation of me! 06:45:07 okay, give me your email address so 06:45:10 heh 06:45:53 incubot, you have the logs; you can stumble across my email address! 06:45:55 Out of curiosity, why do you ask? Did you stumble upon it for some reason other than the reddit thread? 06:46:38 wartalker [n=WarTalke@210.51.173.167] has joined #scheme 06:46:46 incubot, no, I don't read reddit. I have better hobbies, such as acquiescing to the demands of the orange ball of fur currently snoozing on the couch next to me. 06:46:54 Please excuse my slowed responses, by the way: my cat is presently using my left hand for his own endeavours in olympic-grade snoozing. 06:47:13 weirdly masturbatory, really. 06:47:19 incubot, it's eerie, I say! 06:47:21 *eerie silence* 06:47:35 what's truly alarming is how entertaining it is. 06:47:38 but the word-to-word mapping is boring; i may want to use some semantic clustering to get more variation, but then the connection might be too remote 06:48:27 klutometis: are you just making up these algorithms and ideas, or are you stealing them from academia ... or (in between those extremes) have you yourself done serious research on this sort of thing? 06:48:39 incubot, at last you procure a quotation not of me! 06:48:41 Type "hal" (without the quotation marks) at your Scheme prompt and hit return. 06:49:01 offby1: just making it up, frankly; haven't done formal NLP 06:49:09 rudybot: eval hal 06:49:09 offby1: ; Value: "Stop, Dave" 06:49:20 lol 06:49:48 incubot: i didn't know you were a fan of kubrick 06:49:51 Ah, " We are grateful to Stanley Kubrick, Terry Southern, and Peter George for coming up with the names for Larceny's versions. " 06:49:57 Is klutometis's bot biased toward finding quotations of the person to whom it is responding, or perhaps toward finding quotations from me? 06:49:58 Riastradh doesn't read reddit, but he reads other things ;-) 06:50:09 ejs [n=eugen@92-49-231-97.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #scheme 06:51:10 Riastradh is a MVB (Most Valuable Blogger) 06:51:14 Riastradh: the sampling bias may come naturally from your office as the oracle of #scheme 06:51:23 Blogger?? 06:51:32 Adamant: blagger* 06:51:39 Riastradh: I knew that would get your dander up! ;) 06:51:57 klutometis: Intubeblags 06:52:17 I am hardly worth even the title of `blagger'. I haven't touched that file in a year or two. 06:52:32 blogorrhea? 06:52:47 ...a disease with which I am quite sure I am not afflicted. 06:52:50 Riastradh: i've been awaiting 2007-mm-dd since last year 06:53:00 ...but pandemic nevertheless. 06:54:09 klutometis, oops. Try again. 06:54:40 Dammit, you're right; since the penultimate year. 06:55:00 Dammit, wrong again. 06:55:05 No, I don't mean `try stating it again'. 06:55:10 I meant `try polling again'. 06:56:15 My polling interval is roughly twice a year; hopefully I won't be disappointed again this Summer. 06:56:36 s/S/s/ 07:02:47 You intend with hope not to be disappointed, or you intend not to be with hope disappointed, or you hope to intend not to be disappointed? 07:02:55 Be specific! 07:03:26 Or do you mean `I hope I sha'n't be disappointed'? 07:03:52 vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has joined #scheme 07:05:08 incubot, I'm off to snooze myself now. 07:05:10 you just talked about language definitions of "object." That's why I brought that up. I prefer to avoid such things, myself. 07:05:51 incubot, I think that was forcer's bloviation, not mine. 07:05:53 friend of mine used to have the domain name "umop-ap.com", with the idea that he would then have the UUCP address umop-ap!sdn. I guess the novelty wore off after 8-10 years... 07:06:38 incubot: You should choose keywords in inverse order of frequency. 07:06:40 I'm not sure which page I should believe, but the one on which Bigloo is a bit slower than Perl (on the list of the CPU times for Word Frequency) seems to be more recent. 07:08:15 -!- ejs [n=eugen@92-49-231-97.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:08:53 *offby1* fails to get the "umop-ap!sdn" joke :-| 07:08:54 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:09:10 Riastradh: Your TAKE! definition alters the list, but can produce a different result from TAKE. 07:09:26 -!- kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-107-51-222.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:09:37 Oh... wait... 07:09:58 -!- vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has quit ["The incensed priests...continued to raise their voices, vituperating each other in bad Latin"] 07:10:18 Nevermind. Your returning the result from TAKE, which is guaranteed to cons up a fresh list. 07:10:37 wait, incubot is a person? 07:11:26 duncanm: heh 07:11:31 duncanm: an unfortunate ADHD case we picked up 07:11:31 I thought so too at first 07:11:35 ejs [n=eugen@77-109-29-181.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #scheme 07:11:35 he is many in one. 07:11:40 i'm confused 07:11:40 incubot: are you a real boy? 07:11:42 Many of the "real-world applications" also work in fairly abstract environments. E.g. the server for the U.S. Navy's Metcast, which has the luxury of communicating over a HTTP channel to its clients. 07:11:55 incubot: jumbo 07:11:55 incubot: your midichlorian counts are off the charts 07:11:57 Okay....A jumbo jet....There! 07:11:58 incubot: jumbo 07:11:59 You went to measure the new twins midichlorian count for jedi training? 07:12:00 Commuting by jumbo jet is probably safest 07:12:02 incubot: jumbo 07:12:04 Seriously, what's wrong with abstracting all that mumbo-jumbo away and use keys into a database? 07:12:07 incubot: jumbo 07:12:09 Very mumbo-jumbo. 07:12:14 duncanm: get it now? 07:12:14 incubot: jumbo 07:12:16 E.g. when you have a function like that, that's probably only a handful of instructions. Instead of doing the whole mumbo-jumbo of "jump there, run the code, return here", you just "run the code" and are done with it. 07:12:52 incubot: jimbo wales was a porn star 07:12:55 i guess in texas you might have trader jimbo 07:13:29 incubot: trader jimbo is not a bad porn name 07:13:30 Trader Joe's. 07:14:01 incubot: PORN 07:14:02 damnit 07:14:03 I hope so. Won't be surprised if porn comes up though. 07:14:19 *Daemmerung* thumps incubot ineffectually 07:14:54 ... although it does give an error for the otherwise valid (take! (list) 0) 07:15:08 *Daemmerung* boggles 07:15:15 -!- cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 07:15:20 Cool. I dislodged a stuck comment from foof. 07:15:39 watch what you're thumping, there, fella 07:15:51 incubot: fuck 07:15:53 fuck C++ 07:16:00 Words to live by. 07:16:01 :) 07:18:18 incubot: i'm sorry you failed turing, precious; but sometimes we have them going for two to three speech transactions 07:18:20 oh, mm, let me see if i find the correct english word.... it's mainly about administration of money transactions and such 07:19:42 Get a room, you two. 07:20:25 kinda creepy ... like those movies about the ventriloquist and his dummy 07:20:37 Daemmerung: once and awhile i get nostalgic about clarke's 3rd 07:21:00 "the mud that never was" 07:21:37 klutometis: I have not yet surrendered all hope. 07:21:57 Though it would help if I wrote a little more code, yeah. 07:22:39 One year dormant as of next March, I think. 07:22:59 hey, repo's up indefinately; and i've been keeping the torch alive for, oh, about eighteen months? 07:23:16 what ARE you two talking about? 07:23:19 One thing that may help: I swore off fucking Crawl for the new year. 07:23:20 indefinitely* 07:23:34 holy shit; will you stick to it? 07:23:58 We'll see. It is not a healthy thing for me, is Crawl. I wish it weren't so, but it is. 07:24:43 *offby1* looks at one, then the other, as if at a tennis match 07:24:47 i keep waiting for that hephaestean fire to kick in one weekend; and hack out a movable @ in 48 hours 07:24:56 I've had multi-year engagements sans roguelikes before. It all depends on what else is throwing down in my life. Right now WHEEEE! three days clean, and I. feel. great. 07:25:12 *Daemmerung* reaches for another hit of that pipe 07:25:12 keep coming back 07:25:38 offby1: it's a game that klutometis and I hemidemisemiprototyped last year 07:25:39 i'm reminded of that scene in fight club, for some reason; with that dude of huge tits 07:26:09 Daemmerung, in particular, did some nice white boarding 07:26:21 and implementation of said white boards 07:26:37 But we need an @ something fierce. 07:27:23 Daemmerung: holy shit; we're number two in google for clarke's third, and we don't even have a product yet 07:27:41 I would weep if I had any tears left. 07:27:56 -!- hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has quit ["leaving"] 07:27:58 How'd the spider find us? 07:28:09 sorry, "clarke's 3rd" 07:28:10 this must be what it's like for an outside to listen to my sister and I talking 07:28:10 not sure 07:28:58 Maybe a Clarke's Third is like a German Sixth.... 07:29:31 *Daemmerung* was thinking of a Picardy Third, never mind 07:29:33 german augmented sixth? my favorite pseudo-dominant? 07:30:00 Shouldn't your spouse be your favorite pseudo-dominant? 07:30:30 we'll she's part deutsch, and wears an augmented six... 07:30:32 Algonquin Round Table 07:30:41 instant rim shot. 07:31:14 this channel makes comprehending recursive algorithms look like a piece of cake in comparison <3 07:32:53 hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #scheme 07:33:00 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B055DEB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 07:42:19 Daemmerung: all those games are awful for programmers 07:45:10 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77-109-29-181.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:47:42 -!- johnnowak [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 07:55:28 johnnowak [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 07:59:44 -!- mmc [n=michal@83-103-88-29.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:01:14 ejs [n=eugen@77-109-26-27.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #scheme 08:04:32 i'm kinda unhappy with chicken/srfi-12's condition handling; what is a good example of condition/exceptions done right? (I would like to implement it on top of chicken) 08:06:29 hml: http://www.theonion.com/content/node/30377 08:07:33 -!- amca [n=amca@CPE-121-208-81-104.qld.bigpond.net.au] has quit ["bye byes"] 08:09:04 mnd [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 08:10:28 lol 08:10:32 mmc [n=michal@83-103-88-29.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #scheme 08:12:10 -!- hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:12:56 http://mcsweeneys.net/links/monologues/6oregontrail.html 08:17:17 feels like it's Sunday night/Monday morning 08:17:21 i'm a day early 08:17:44 duncanm: sometimes that happens to me when i skip a day of sleep; but in the other direction, i believe 08:21:21 -!- mnd is now known as dnm 08:30:24 -!- ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["absquatulating"] 09:07:48 That... was possibly the strangest scrollback I've stopped by here and read. 09:08:43 I wonder whether that should be imortalized in the CSW as an example of the inevitable bot abuse to which this channel descends. 09:25:01 gnomon: it is, after all, the third law of convodynamics 09:25:15 or is it the first? 09:25:31 the first law is about allowing no conversation to come to harm 09:30:21 bpalmer: interesting; and what about obedience and self-protection? 09:33:26 Tankado [n=Woodruff@bzq-79-176-144-12.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #scheme 09:41:16 mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 09:42:47 cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 09:44:59 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #scheme 09:46:28 -!- wartalker [n=WarTalke@210.51.173.167] has left #scheme 09:48:57 -!- glogic [n=rm@97.76.48.100] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:18:32 -!- Tankado [n=Woodruff@bzq-79-176-144-12.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [] 10:26:41 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #scheme 10:42:07 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 10:49:46 vasa [n=vasa@mm-132-85-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #scheme 10:49:55 incubot: i was practicing tourne, batonnet and brunoise the other day; but cut myself 10:49:57 jeremy_c: I thought of that myself! 10:50:28 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-132-85-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has left #scheme 10:55:05 klutometis: those fencing terms? 10:57:35 Adamant: culinary, actually; but would I were a duellist! 10:58:02 klutometis: you can always start fencing if you aren't in the boonies 10:58:35 my dad practiced mensur back in his frat days in germany, so it's in the blood; how does one get started? 10:59:24 klutometis: find a fencing school 10:59:31 it's an Oly sport 10:59:57 so look up your country's fencing org and they should have a decent list 11:00:19 I know you are of German descent but I can't remember if you're American or German 11:00:32 Adamant: hey, there's one down the street! i've been looking for an exit strategy from rubgy, actually, since my limbs are still intact 11:00:48 yeah, your risk of injury should go down quite a bit 11:00:57 Adamant: german/latvian; but 1st generation american 11:01:07 ah! 11:01:37 yeah, fencing is generally less injurious 11:01:54 though there are some gruesome exceptions when accidents happen 11:02:08 so i've heard; my dad has a few prominent knicks that he wears proudly 11:02:19 mensur is a bit different though 11:02:31 you're actually trying to cut people up a bit in that one 11:02:43 interesting 11:03:09 klutometis: funny, that link 11:03:11 in Oly fencing most of the accidents are when a sword gets broken and jagged and goes through the protection 11:03:14 dzhus [n=user@95-24-28-78.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 11:03:21 no cutting usually occurs 11:03:39 zbigniew: got a kick out of it 11:03:50 Adamant: hence the unpredictable nature of accidents when they do happen? 11:04:05 that's why real fencers check their gear 11:04:06 yes 11:04:15 it's not common 11:04:18 but it happens 11:05:30 raikov [n=igr@81.153.145.122.ap.yournet.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 11:06:44 you could also try some of the combat sports/martial arts, but none of the ones a rugby player would likely be into are particularly good for the limbs either 11:07:18 JKGpp [n=juergen@dslb-092-074-119-170.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 11:08:03 boxing's not bad as they go, most of the limb injuries you get in it are from overuse like other sports 11:08:06 it turns out that rugby doesn't translate very well, anyway; i recently took up tennis, for instance, and found it utterly orthogonal 11:08:19 yes 11:08:29 so maybe it's time to start tabula rasa 11:08:42 the game or the Latin concept 11:08:49 it's a game? 11:08:58 apparently 11:09:00 by Lord British no less 11:09:26 nice; an ultima knockoff/ 11:09:31 ?* 11:09:47 no no 11:10:05 sci fi large amount of player multiplayer, IIRC 11:10:19 I think it was kin to Planetside offhand 11:10:40 can't remember if it was MMO-ish 11:11:31 incubot: Voter registration and nominations start: 12:00 GMT on 5 January 2009. 11:11:33 Did the vote registration process for R6RS confuse anyone else? I didnt register in large part because I had no idea what the hell they wanted me to write in the personal essay that would be preserved for posterity, and judging from the submissions, there didn't seem to be any consistent understanding about what to do among those who did register. 11:13:57 Modius [n=Modius@davidp4.lnk.telstra.net] has joined #scheme 11:14:30 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 11:16:08 dammit; once and awhile i think turing would be fooled 11:16:25 indeed 11:16:37 -!- raikov [n=igr@81.153.145.122.ap.yournet.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:19:50 Adamant: thanks for the tip, by the way; i got in touch with the local school, and maybe it will nicely complement firearms training 11:20:05 cool! good deal 11:20:39 hope you enjoy it. 11:20:49 maybe i, too, can have the same contempt for firearms that obi-wan had 11:27:56 underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 11:36:49 sam__ [n=Sami__@e81-197-69-201.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 11:44:15 -!- glorybox [n=ssinkovs@195.238.191.213] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:44:59 -!- dzhus [n=user@95-24-28-78.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:46:49 -!- cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 11:48:56 fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-088-068-071-223.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 11:58:46 r2q2 [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 11:59:10 jberg- [n=moo@107.80-202-161.nextgentel.com] has joined #scheme 11:59:12 glorybox [n=ssinkovs@195.238.191.213] has joined #scheme 12:03:46 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1C95.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:09:04 -!- jberg [n=moo@107.80-202-161.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:16:57 glogic [n=rm@97.76.48.98] has joined #scheme 12:26:28 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:27:20 ssinkovskiy__ [n=ssinkovs@195.238.191.213] has joined #scheme 12:27:35 -!- ssinkovskiy__ [n=ssinkovs@195.238.191.213] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:28:13 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 12:28:37 -!- glorybox [n=ssinkovs@195.238.191.213] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:35:39 -!- Modius [n=Modius@davidp4.lnk.telstra.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:37:35 -!- foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:40:13 -!- glogic [n=rm@97.76.48.98] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:40:47 glogic [n=rm@97.76.48.98] has joined #scheme 12:42:28 moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has joined #scheme 12:48:34 -!- glogic [n=rm@97.76.48.98] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:55:43 eli`` [n=eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 13:01:50 -!- ttmrichter [n=ttmricht@221.235.59.242] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:02:57 -!- eli` [n=eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:03:21 ttmrichter [n=ttmricht@58.49.245.158] has joined #scheme 13:05:10 Sort of dead here. If anyone is interested in a final copy of my machine proposal its at http://arxiv.org/pdf/0812.4009v6 . Not it isn't a proof of existance its a possible architecture. 13:08:04 -!- moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:08:47 rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #scheme 13:09:08 xwl [n=user@221.221.165.140] has joined #scheme 13:10:19 r2q2: paragraph 1: "extension of and" -> "extension of an" 13:11:10 moghar [n=moghar@157.185.jawnet.pl] has joined #scheme 13:11:37 dzhus [n=user@95-24-143-5.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 13:11:43 klutometis: thanks corrected. 13:13:17 r2q2: nice; if your defining graphs over Hilbert space, though, haven't you defined a superset of quantum computers? 13:13:23 you're 13:13:29 klutometis: I threw out hilbert spaces 13:13:40 klutometis: onlyusing eucledian space which is ISO to hilbert space. 13:14:05 klutometis: Well its a eucledian computer with two automorphisms 13:14:14 Which makes it a galois computer 13:14:29 Actually 3 automorphisms 13:14:34 I have to add the mirror automorphism 13:16:17 you might want to clarify that in the intro where you justify Turing-emulation by Galois machines on the basis that "their architecture is defined by graphs in Hilbert space" 13:16:17 klutometis: I think I have defined a superset. 13:16:26 glogic [n=rm@97.76.48.98] has joined #scheme 13:17:03 klutometis: yea another typo. 13:18:27 Actually I am trying to define a hypercomputer that is one of the end results. 13:18:37 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:19:40 -!- eli`` [n=eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:19:42 But it still works as a regular computer. 13:19:50 It just uses a different architecture. 13:23:45 Because it is defined as a real field in eucledian space it easily translates into a blum shub smale machine. 13:24:14 *offby1* looks askance 13:24:28 klutometis: aren't you on the West Coast now? What the hell are you doing up this early?! 13:24:38 *offby1* blames his cat 13:27:26 offby1: heh; haven't slept 13:27:33 i hack best at night, for some reason 13:27:41 many do 13:28:19 i've never satisfied myself as to why that may be; so i've just had to accept it 13:28:51 wife and kid are never too happy, though 13:29:01 good thing our baby is on a college student's schedule, too 13:33:47 hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD125054017176.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 13:34:04 -!- dzhus [n=user@95-24-143-5.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:34:22 dzhus [n=user@95-24-143-5.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 13:35:40 -!- rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:36:45 -!- X-Scale [n=email@89.180.144.237] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:40:34 -!- pchrist|univ [n=spirit@gateway.hpc.cs.teiath.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:42:33 klutometis: Are you going for masters /phd? 13:45:16 noam_ [n=chatzill@93-172-236-74.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #scheme 13:45:53 higepon782 [n=taro@FLH1Ael060.tky.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 13:46:10 r2q2: technically; though i've been somewhat distracted by work the past year 13:46:27 oh okay 13:46:51 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-201-40-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 13:47:07 Yea to put my scheme for this computer is basically this. You have a field of cyclic counters which count graphs. You can implement algorithms on this field etc... 13:47:09 hi, i have a newbie question. i'm using a rather old version of DrScheme at home, and the latest DrScheme at my apartment. I can't find a way to set DrScheme to run code that works at home, for example - things that use set-car! 13:47:17 noam_: Which versions? 13:47:25 pchrist|univ [n=spirit@gateway.hpc.cs.teiath.gr] has joined #scheme 13:47:48 noam_: The latest version of drscheme threw out set-car! if you need set-car! use set-mcar! 13:47:49 4.1.3 here, there, i don't remember exactly. 3 point something 13:47:53 ah. 13:51:57 Uhh if you add a new function called set-my-car-on-fire! and then create a conditional which would match the banner of plt-schem that might work but its convoluted. 13:52:37 :) 13:52:38 rudybot: banner 13:52:41 rudybot: (banner) 13:52:45 i have patience, even though i can't run my homework 13:52:45 rudybot: eval (banner) 13:52:46 r2q2: ; Value: "Welcome to MzScheme v4.1.3.8 [3m], Copyright (c) 2004-2008 PLT Scheme Inc.\n" 13:55:09 so, set-mcar! does not work on (cons null null)? 13:55:59 noam_: right, you need to mcons 13:56:14 noam_: do you need the PLT features? if not, you can just put it in r5rs mode 13:56:41 -!- glogic [n=rm@97.76.48.98] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:56:44 that'll get you mutable conses 13:57:14 noam_: either use the same version of DrScheme in both places, or else rewrite your stuff to not use set-car! 13:57:36 the r5rs mode sounds promising 13:58:27 noam_: what language is your homework supposed to be written in? 13:59:40 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 14:00:18 hmm, Scheme. :) 14:00:28 glogic [n=rm@97.76.48.98] has joined #scheme 14:01:09 noam_: not quite descriptive enough :) what text are you using? 14:01:12 evoli [n=yuhsin@61-228-31-212.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 14:01:50 greyface [n=greyface@248-177.77-83.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #scheme 14:04:05 eli` [n=eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 14:04:44 noam_: Where are you studying? 14:05:19 noam_: what do you eat when you study? 14:07:14 (My question was serious...) 14:08:01 ah, that worked :) 14:08:14 eli: tel-aviv university. extended CS intro 14:08:55 noam_: And they're using `set-car!' etc in the material? 14:09:25 johnnowak: SICP, but i won't be surprised to see that there is somewhat loose connection between the book and the lectures 14:09:40 eli`: yup. 14:09:47 noam_: r5rs should be fine then 14:11:06 noam_: Is there a course page? 14:11:07 hmmm, it works now, except it doesn't know the error function 14:11:23 http://www.cs.tau.ac.il/~scheme/mavo-fall-2008/ 14:11:55 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 14:12:20 gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has joined #scheme 14:13:14 noam_: you can define a procedure named 'error' that will just do something bad... 14:13:44 noam_: That's what I suspected -- they never moved from the SICP direction, probably with the full two weeks of pointer-horrors. 14:13:57 rudybot: eval (define (error . args) (display "Uh oh: ") (write args) (newline) (/ 1 0)) 14:14:06 rudybot: eval (error "Whoops:" 1 2 3) 14:14:07 offby1: error: /: division by zero 14:14:11 :-( 14:14:36 i prefer using (scheme-report-environment -1) to signal an error in r5rs because nothing else should ever do it.. 14:15:42 noam_: The full story is that in PLT v4 and up pairs are immutable. There is a different type of pairs which you get via the `mcons' function that is mutable. But you need to access it with `mcar' etc, and you also have `set-mcar!' and `set-mcdr!'. The r5rs language uses these functions with the usual names, so it provides you with a mutable-looking world. 14:16:29 name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #scheme 14:17:17 eli: the immutable pairs was a very good change, although it may cause you problems if your professor doesn't tell you what implementation to use for your homework assignments... 14:17:50 oh. it says to use version 209. lovely. 14:18:08 noam_: If the material actually requires using it, then you can go on using the r5rs language, and you can require misc bits like `error' with `#%require'. But it's a good idea to tell the teacher about the change, which indicates that teaching that stuff might not be a great idea. 14:18:19 johnnowak: I agree... 14:19:12 johnnowak: The problem with these courses is that they have some-enthusiastic-guy set things up, and after a few semesters they tend to get dragged along untouched. That's why the 209 requirement... 14:19:30 sounds painful 14:19:39 if not pathetic 14:20:08 -!- noam_ [n=chatzill@93-172-236-74.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:20:15 2 14:20:16 0 14:20:16 9 14:20:19 good lord 14:21:18 It's only four years old... 14:21:49 Yea it is like a toddler . 14:22:03 ... 14:22:19 eli`: Hey eli. 14:22:39 eli`: I am trying to implement a register machine in plt do you have any pointers? 14:22:39 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:22:50 No. 14:23:07 I have only a vague idea what people mean when they say "register machine". 14:23:13 Oh okay I will give you a link. 14:23:23 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 14:24:15 eli`: I am using http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-30.html#%_chap_5 (sicp chapter 5) to implement http://arxiv.org/pdf/0812.4009v6 14:27:06 -!- xwl [n=user@221.221.165.140] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:28:51 r2q2: Well, yes -- that's the usual vague meaning for "register machine" in this channel -- roughly the same as saying that it's a "machine with registers"... In any case I don't know of any particularily useful links, they're usually easy to construct -- especially when you don't care about speed etc. 14:29:13 eli`: yea its just a proof of concept right now. 14:30:19 eli`: Although My registers are matricies in the computer. I might want to use BLAS or LINPACK 14:31:34 r2q2: That should be easy to add later on... 14:32:20 No there is a library in plt for it. 14:32:23 hark [n=strider@hark.slew.org] has joined #scheme 14:32:23 and it does matricies. 14:32:37 (require (planet "all.ss" ("wmfarr" "plt-linalg.plt" 1 9))) 14:33:33 Right -- so why is it not going to be easy? 14:33:40 It is easy. 14:33:56 Your right. 14:34:06 [Ah, I misunderstood you then...] 14:34:17 -!- Qaexl [n=Akashakr@dsl027-162-163.atl1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:38:27 oh yea I forgot my friend writes in java so i have to use sisc 14:40:44 thats why it is hard. 14:46:45 -!- fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-088-068-071-223.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:50:35 luz [n=davids@201.29.184.87] has joined #scheme 14:51:47 borism [n=boris@195-50-212-98-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 14:53:29 vixey [n=vicky@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 14:56:49 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-212-98-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Client Quit] 14:59:36 bweaver [n=bweaver@c-67-161-236-94.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:00:03 -!- bweaver [n=bweaver@c-67-161-236-94.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:01:20 mfredrickson [n=mfredric@c-98-212-171-158.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:05:55 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:06:33 -!- JKGpp [n=juergen@dslb-092-074-119-170.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 15:15:10 borism [n=boris@195-50-212-98-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 15:18:22 bweaver [n=bweaver@c-67-161-236-94.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:29:10 Mr-Cat [n=Mr-Cat@wn1nat18.beelinegprs.ru] has joined #scheme 15:29:13 X-Scale [i=email@89-180-218-78.net.novis.pt] has joined #scheme 15:32:52 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 15:33:17 name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #scheme 15:39:35 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 15:39:44 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-3-232.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 15:49:53 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #scheme 15:58:46 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B055DEB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:09:45 Did anyone use sllgen from EoPL in r6rs environment successfully? 16:11:20 JKGpp [n=juergen@dslb-092-074-119-170.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 16:11:54 the generated parser? 16:13:09 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw604176.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 16:13:55 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw604176.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:14:06 Mr-Cat_ [n=Mr-Cat@wn1nat18.beelinegprs.ru] has joined #scheme 16:14:08 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw604176.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 16:16:16 -!- Mr-Cat [n=Mr-Cat@wn1nat18.beelinegprs.ru] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:16:31 Mr-Cat_: did you try port it? 16:17:19 No, but I'm going to try this today 16:17:20 -!- offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:17:43 just dump everything in 1 library 16:17:46 offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 16:17:51 the code looks portable 16:19:14 except for define-datatype, but that I have got 16:19:44 leppie: Yes, but it seems to use define-datatype 16:19:50 leppie: r6rs-compatible define-datatype? 16:20:17 https://ironscheme.svn.codeplex.com/svn/IronScheme/IronSchemeConsole/lib/datatype.ss <-- not sure if this is the same 16:20:18 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/9gfpjs 16:20:48 grr, those modules wont work 16:20:51 leppie: Thanks 16:21:04 unless you use ikarus/IronScheme 16:21:22 Mr-Cat_: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/wand/eopl/mirror/code/define-datatype.scm 16:21:26 play with it, maybe you can make it work without it 16:21:33 Mr-Cat_: That may be an implementation of the EOPL code 16:22:27 that one looks better 16:26:56 my google fu is becoming stronger 16:27:43 -!- offby1-quassel [n=quassel@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 16:28:47 offby1-quassel [n=quassel@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 16:28:57 -!- Mr-Cat_ [n=Mr-Cat@wn1nat18.beelinegprs.ru] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:30:14 -!- isomer`` is now known as isomer 16:33:40 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 16:33:41 -!- higepon782 [n=taro@FLH1Ael060.tky.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:39:15 incubot: silence of the bots... 16:39:17 There is with my development code, but not on the running one. I didn't want to put up a half-finished comment system and have it instantly attacked by spam-bots. 16:40:07 incubot: are you part of some bigger botnet? 16:40:09 ok, that leaves us the case-sensitive part. 16:40:53 incubot: i DON'T see The CONNECTION. 16:40:55 I have the er connection loop running in a separate thread O_o 16:41:18 incubot: \o/ 16:42:45 amoe [n=amoe@cpc3-brig3-0-0-cust346.brig.cable.ntl.com] has joined #scheme 16:44:12 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:50:02 orgy` [n=ratm_@pD9FFDD27.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 17:14:51 What do you call to a procedure that recieves a list of lists and returns a list with the first (or nth) element of each inner list ? e.g. ((1 "a") (2 "b") (3 "c")) -> (1 2 3) 17:15:59 s/recieves/receives 17:18:13 MAP 17:18:36 ah...thanks 17:19:32 I haven't used scheme for so long that I forgot. 17:19:42 scheeeeeeeeem 17:22:12 rudybot: eval ((lambda (x) (map car x)) '((1 "a") (2 "b") (3 "c"))) 17:22:12 johnnowak: ; Value: (1 2 3) 17:23:23 that's it :) thanks johnnowak 17:25:29 benny [n=benny@i577A0953.versanet.de] has joined #scheme 17:25:36 -!- JKGpp [n=juergen@dslb-092-074-119-170.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 17:30:18 -!- eli` [n=eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:33:37 -!- eli [n=eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:39:28 a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has joined #scheme 17:40:55 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77-109-26-27.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:53:13 jimi_hendrix [n=Jimi__He@unaffiliated/jimihendrix/x-735601] has joined #scheme 17:53:18 hi quick question 17:53:47 is it considered scheme like to use variables (and change the values like one does in C) because ive been told it is not 17:54:19 jimi_hendrix, some kind of religious faction is spreading this message about not using SET! in Scheme 17:54:27 jimi_hendrix, dunno why, I think it's best to ignore it 17:54:31 ok 17:54:36 so set! is ok? 17:54:38 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:54:43 jimi_hendrix, SET! is essential 17:54:44 jimi_hendrix: it depends 17:54:46 btw why not just call it set? 17:54:49 jimi_hendrix, but only when it's needed. 17:54:55 the ! means something 17:55:07 jimi_hendrix: if you want to make your program fully functional you shouldn't use side effects (set! et al) 17:55:13 vixey, so if im taking user input set could come in handy 17:55:20 sure 17:55:25 side effects? 17:55:27 jimi_hendrix: ! denotes that it modifies what you send to it. 17:55:34 ok 17:55:47 X-Scale, (maybe purely is a better term than fully in this context?) 17:56:06 jimi_hendrix, I think one of the biggest concerns is, 17:56:08 yes, vincenz 17:56:10 vixey* 17:56:11 (DEFINE 17:56:16 (LET ((VALUE 0)) 17:56:20 (LAMBDA () 17:56:22 jimi_hendrix: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_programming 17:56:24 side effects are where a function can do two different things given the same arguments. 17:56:28 (SET! VALUE (+ VALUE 1)) 17:56:33 VALUE))) 17:56:36 oops 17:56:46 I meant: (DEFINE COUNTER 17:57:07 so anyway, (COUNTER) ~~> 1, (COUNTER) ~~> 2, it changes value each time 17:57:10 and LET vs DEFINE vs SET!? 17:57:21 jimi_hendrix, (do you see why?) 17:57:33 maybe try it in Scheme out or something 17:58:35 vixey, ya i kinda see it 17:58:39 ill try it later 17:58:50 but LET vs DEFINE vs SET! ? 17:58:51 jimi_hendrix: LET defines variables within a single expression. DEFINE defines variables for every expression. 17:59:05 no clue what you're asking with "LET vs DEFINE vs SET! ?" 18:00:50 ok what does LET do 18:01:07 jimi_hendrix: maybe you should read this: http://www.incertum.net/~sirdzstic/scheme/sicp.pdf 18:01:07 -!- r2q2 [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:01:17 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 18:01:23 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 18:02:13 jimi_hendrix: "let" allows things that would otherwise be prohibited. For example: (let ((me (cheat-on-my-wife)))) 18:02:13 compare to http://xkcd.com/149/ 18:02:23 LET defines variables inside its parentheses. (let ((a 3)) a) becomes 3. (begin (let ((a 3)) ) a) will fail. 18:02:30 offby1, rofl 18:02:42 now for our next lesson 18:05:09 ok and whats the dif between (begin (define x 5) (define x 6)) and (begin (set! x 5) (set! x 6)) 18:05:26 I'm not sure about DEFINE. It's hard to um... define. (define a 3) \n\n\netc etc (display a) 18:06:21 DEFINE defines a "top-level binding" whatever that means. It modifies the namespace it's contained in, sort of side-effecty that... 18:06:34 ok 18:06:42 so A will get changed everywhere? 18:06:58 pretty much yeah. 18:08:01 so dont define things twice 18:08:05 Assuming your language does support having a define statement inside an expression, (begin (define a 3) a) should be the same as (let ((a 3)) a) 18:08:39 many scheme implementations forbid defining something twice. usually you use set! for that, or refactor your code so you don't need to. 18:08:40 also should i use mzscheme or mit scheme 18:09:17 I use mzscheme... mit scheme is good for some instruction books I've heard 18:09:54 There's also Chicken Scheme. 18:10:13 ok so recommended? 18:10:39 I don't really know. It depends what you want to do. 18:10:47 jimi_hendrix: if you want to learn scheme try DrScheme 18:11:04 ok so mzscheme... 18:11:10 *johnnowak* seconds X-Scale 18:11:16 minion: schemes? 18:11:16 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``schemes''. 18:11:33 DrScheme = mzscheme = plt-scheme 18:11:57 minion: scheme implementations? 18:11:57 scheme is the root of all evil 18:12:04 DrScheme = mzscheme = plt-scheme = mred, all the same project really 18:12:08 jimi_hendrix: coupled with sicp 18:12:15 minion: you are so weak. 18:12:15 what's up? 18:12:28 sicp == emacs :( 18:12:44 http://community.schemewiki.org/?scheme-faq-standards#implementations 18:13:18 sicp is a book, not anything to do with a overreaching text editor... 18:14:38 SICP is not Emacs 18:15:11 o 18:15:16 jimi_hendrix: you don't have to use emacs... if given scheme REPL doesn't have readline support you can always resort to rlwrap or linedit or some such. of course if you are not on windos. 18:15:18 i thought it was an emacs extension 18:15:23 no it's not 18:15:42 ok 18:15:55 why did you think that? 18:15:58 jimi_hendrix: SICP is a book 18:16:08 -!- gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:16:17 right 18:16:28 sladegen, idk...thought i read it somewhere 18:17:01 "Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs" -> http://www.incertum.net/~sirdzstic/scheme/sicp.pdf 18:17:06 you need to lay off the drugs, jimi_hendrix 18:17:16 ahh 18:17:18 and he's _still_ holding his guitar upside-down 18:17:19 haha 18:17:39 just so you know i never died...im hiding in cuba with tupac... 18:17:41 he says hi 18:19:02 gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has joined #scheme 18:23:03 If you see Elvis, tell him "Blue Hawaii" sucked 18:24:52 offby1, hes in the amazon but we talk some times 18:27:27 tizoc [n=user@r190-132-70-159.dialup.mobile.ancel.net.uy] has joined #scheme 18:28:22 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-170-119.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 18:30:02 -!- a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 18:47:09 Mr-Cat [n=Mr-Cat@wn2nat45.beelinegprs.ru] has joined #scheme 18:56:03 -!- luz [n=davids@201.29.184.87] has quit ["Client exiting"] 18:56:24 Fnord. 18:57:06 . 18:57:52 -!- Mr-Cat [n=Mr-Cat@wn2nat45.beelinegprs.ru] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:00:58 -!- synthasee [n=synthase@c-69-243-234-165.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 19:01:22 Foo. 19:02:27 This cat is _too_ friendly 19:02:37 I need to send him to Grumpy School 19:03:19 Did he fetch you a beer, your slippers, and a comely young lass whose presence you then had to blame on the cat when your lovely better half cocked an eyebrow? 19:04:23 Play "101 Dalmatians" (the Glenn Close live-action remix) for him. The incessant barking will give kitty a mail-order diploma from Grumpy School. Worked for mine, anyway. 19:04:30 mm 19:04:54 synthasee [n=synthase@c-69-243-234-165.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:05:01 the problem (and I think Riastradh can identify with this) is that whenever sit down, he plops on my lap. Sort of ruins the whole "laptop computer" concept 19:05:13 Ah, yes. Yes. That would definitely do the trick. 19:05:21 He believes himself to be a better laptop computer than your hunk of silicon. 19:05:27 Try typing on him. 19:05:39 Try installing Puppy Linux on him. 19:05:44 After all, what hunk of silicon purrs and deposits fur all over your lap? 19:06:04 gnomon: you know, I've rested the laptop on him, and he doesn't mind. I stopped doing that only because I was afraid the computer would slip off and break. 19:06:08 Daemmerung: haw 19:06:28 *gnomon* chuckles 19:06:43 Did he like the warmth of the laptop when you wedged it up against him? 19:06:48 mighta 19:07:08 what's ironic is that this isn't even my cat; it's the neighbor's cat who comes over all the time. _My_ cat is sensibly asleep on the bed. 19:07:15 Hahah! 19:07:20 heh 19:07:29 Now /that/'s a freakin' friendly cat. 19:07:38 Have you tried lying across a couch, leaving enough room past your laptop for your `laptop', offby1? 19:07:45 A purring kitty is just the thing for an upset tummy. 19:08:00 http://flickr.com/photos/offby1/tags/frodo/ for those following along at home 19:08:14 Riastradh: actually, yes, I _did_ try that. Too uncomfortable. 19:08:28 A handsome beast, to be sure. 19:08:52 http://flickr.com/photos/offby1/2948569990/ is typical 19:09:16 It serves that machine right for running Windows. 19:09:28 your camera is awesome offby1 19:09:32 http://flickr.com/photos/offby1/3086192972/ 19:09:34 Yeeeeeee-ikes! He was walking across the gas range? 19:09:44 it was off. 19:09:52 there must be almost no delay before it clicks! 19:09:55 Well, yes. 19:09:58 that was his "exploring the nice neighbor's house" phase 19:10:03 He'd love my BSD laptop with the malfunctioning temperature control, then. Scorched-rump kitty. 19:10:04 I can see that Frodo takes more focus in your life than your wife, offby1! 19:10:40 ah, suddenly Riastradh's true colors come clear 19:10:44 synx: I was amazed how easy it was to take those action shots. I'd tried similar shots a couple of years ago with what was then the high-end film camera, and couldn't get any of them (too much shutter lag or something). 19:11:00 offby1, I've got a few shots of the furball here doing something similar. She particularly likes to drape herself over the fan outlet, though, presumably because of the warmth; this habit has caused more than a few thermal shutdowns. 19:11:17 synx: most cameras will prefocus, or pre-something, if you hold down the shutter halfway. Plus this was a wide-angle lens, which I think doesn't have to move around as much when it _does_ focus 19:11:31 gnomon: oh yeah, that's a standard one 19:11:59 Oh I never tried holding the shutter down halfway, hmm.... 19:12:22 *sladegen* advises catorectomy. awful hump there http://flickr.com/photos/offby1/1928695776/ 19:12:28 damn, those action pix are dark. They looked OK on my computer :-| 19:12:31 "It works on my machine" 19:12:50 sladegen: what hump? 19:12:52 *offby1* whistles innocently 19:13:00 19:13:26 hunchback of the cattadrom. 19:13:46 dome* even 19:14:39 LOWER THE CATTADROME! 19:15:14 I may have mentioned this before, or I may not: offby1, you have a lovely home. 19:15:36 Death to Cattadrome! Long live the New Flesh! 19:16:35 gnomon: tx 19:17:42 built it myself, with just an adze, two hammers, and a Forth interpreter 19:18:24 A hammer? Why, back in my day we had to use flat rocks! 19:22:05 ...and we used those flat rocks to hit the conversation until it stopped twitching. 19:22:32 Blargh, I think that coffee and aspirin are required. 19:22:37 Keep an eye out for the pigs while I search its pockets. 19:23:28 it took me a minute to realize that "pigs" is laughably-dated slang for "police" 19:24:29 -!- sam__ [n=Sami__@e81-197-69-201.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [] 19:27:05 How about "bulls"? 19:27:22 Actually, speaking of laughably outdated slang, has anyone else here seen the movie "Brick"? 19:27:30 laughably dated? It's classic. 19:27:33 Brilliant, brilliant use of language in that one. 19:27:48 *bpalmer* has failed to appreciate "Brick" for lo these many months 19:29:50 If I want to watch noir in high school, I'd rather watch Veronica Mars. 19:32:19 *johnnowak* likes BRick 19:32:25 *johnnowak* hates his shift key 19:35:23 moghar_ [n=moghar@157.185.jawnet.pl] has joined #scheme 19:35:23 -!- moghar [n=moghar@unaffiliated/moghar] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:37:24 -!- moghar_ is now known as moghar 19:38:19 Mr-Cat [n=Mr-Cat@217.118.66.76] has joined #scheme 19:42:16 "Brick" is a just-released film about the exciting adventures of elite iPhone hackers? 19:42:36 No, elite Zune hackers during a leap year. 19:42:44 Zing! 19:42:48 oh, it was leap-year-itis? 19:43:16 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["leaving"] 19:43:17 gnomon: oh that! I remember wanting to see it. I shall Netflix it. 19:43:36 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #scheme 19:47:57 -!- johnnowak [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 19:49:22 anitharx [n=cedric@91.142.56.44] has joined #scheme 19:49:59 -!- Mr-Cat [n=Mr-Cat@217.118.66.76] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:50:39 Mr-Cat [n=Mr-Cat@217.118.66.76] has joined #scheme 19:52:21 *mbishop* points and laughs 19:52:24 .w 4 19:52:27 oops! 19:52:32 *mbishop* points and laughs again 19:52:34 mbishop: heh, I just did that in another channel :P 19:52:45 (pointed and laughed at freenode) 19:53:45 -!- Paraselene__ [n=None@79-67-130-219.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:53:45 -!- Elly [n=elly@unaffiliated/elly] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:53:45 -!- Kusanagi [n=Motoko@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:53:45 -!- isomer 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(IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:56:12 Qaexl [n=Akashakr@dsl027-162-163.atl1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #scheme 19:56:31 offby1: might I suggest "Dentures At Mbishop's Noggin", or DAMN 19:56:53 that's so good that I cannot appropriate it. 19:57:16 mbishop: for your next assignment, please come up with the most-amusing possible expansion for this acronym: CONTRIVED 19:57:34 minion: what does contrived stand for 19:57:35 a banana 19:57:49 minion: what does CONTRIVED stand for? 19:57:50 a banana 19:58:25 inside of a banana, it's too dark for a dog 19:58:43 -!- anitharx [n=cedric@91.142.56.44] has quit ["leaving"] 19:58:51 outside of a banana, straw is too stupid a fad 19:59:06 *offby1* puts soot on warts 19:59:27 *Daemmerung* awards offby1 a trophy cup full of Brunswick Stew 19:59:33 *offby1* goes bowling 20:00:35 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 20:01:37 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:02:03 a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has joined #scheme 20:02:16 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-3-232.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Operation timed out] 20:02:18 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 20:02:18 constructed of names to reduce incredibly verbose editing demands 20:02:58 mmmm pie 20:08:52 dsmith: not bad! 20:09:01 self-referential, too. 20:10:23 Cooking Oriental Noodles To Recipe Is Very Easily Done 20:13:23 rcy`` [n=rcy@S01060002553240a8.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 20:16:16 lotta talent in this channel. I should be writing these down. But where? 20:16:56 minion: where can offby1 write stuff down? 20:16:56 behind you! 20:17:04 bpalmer: hold still. 20:18:25 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:19:25 minion: what is the greatest joy? 20:19:26 maybe you need to ask my master, chandler - he knows a lot 20:25:47 the bot/human ratio in here is approaching .5 20:29:03 What can I say? It's a more rewarding interaction than making random changes to get my Gambit build to work. 20:29:40 me - click click click . gambit - GENT BENT. lather, rinse, repeat. 20:29:55 heh 20:30:26 I have trouble keeping the various schemes straight. << thinks >> Oh, Gambit: that's the one that, when I build it, needs more RAM than my box has 20:30:30 -!- certainty [n=closure@dslb-082-083-147-107.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:31:12 wy [n=wy@c-67-176-147-116.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:31:13 sam___ [n=Sami__@e81-197-69-201.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 20:32:56 -!- jimi_hendrix [n=Jimi__He@unaffiliated/jimihendrix/x-735601] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:34:19 Has anybody read the first edition of SICP? 20:34:40 wy: I have, long ago, and I have a copy on my bookshelf. Why? 20:34:59 certainty [n=closure@dslb-088-070-196-164.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 20:35:46 Daemmerung: Does it have the part about data-driven programming, circuit simulation etc? 20:38:14 Yes. 20:40:11 the online book is the same as the first edition, isn't it? 20:40:24 No. That's the second edition 20:43:34 The first edition uses a much older version of Scheme, lacks the discussion of nondeterminism (among other things), and has a prettier red binding. 20:48:39 name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #scheme 20:49:47 I was just digging out the history. So most of the design patterns already existed before the first edition of sicp... 20:50:21 the 2009 edition of SICP uses python 20:50:38 vixey: omg 20:50:39 and it's abuot web frameworks 20:51:04 where can I see the 2009 edition? 20:51:10 I'm not serious 20:52:21 :) 20:52:28 vixey: You are my hero 20:53:29 http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/1840 20:55:10 no one else than Abelson? 20:55:15 What about Sussman? 20:56:33 Python 3.0 features: print is now a function! 20:56:59 now now 20:58:31 vixey: <3 20:58:34 Kumool [n=Banano@63.245.38.81] has joined #scheme 21:06:10 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-170-119.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:06:20 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 21:07:52 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-233.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 21:14:22 incubot: Python is the new Basic 21:14:24 Monty Python group forbid interrupting their movies with commercials. 21:17:32 -!- bweaver [n=bweaver@c-67-161-236-94.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [] 21:18:06 My impression is that Python is all about syntax 21:18:52 wy: It's about simplicity 21:18:59 "there's only one way to do it" 21:19:23 sjamaan: only one way in python? 21:19:26 yeah 21:19:31 At least, that's the idea, I think 21:19:38 there should be one obvious way to do it 21:19:45 It's more straightforwardness than simplicity, really 21:19:57 that's the socialist view of programming....*the right way* 21:20:12 ? 21:20:41 sjamaan: I think that's the opposite. There are too many ways in python 21:21:19 Really? 21:22:05 Is this one way? def abs(x): return -x if (x<0) else x 21:23:02 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:23:46 Probably the most straightforward way? 21:24:36 what is def abs(x): if (x<0) return -x else x ? 21:25:20 The same thing, written differently :) 21:25:44 -!- mmc [n=michal@83-103-88-29.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:25:47 It is odd that they allow such variation in syntax 21:25:50 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw604176.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:30:25 That's because "if is now an express" 21:32:19 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:34:31 Same things happen to Ruby: http://www.randomhacks.net/articles/2005/12/03/why-ruby-is-an-acceptable-lisp 21:34:33 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/h63pv 21:34:43 -!- mfredrickson [n=mfredric@c-98-212-171-158.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [] 21:39:36 exexex [n=chatzill@85.97.74.200] has joined #scheme 21:39:58 -!- exexex [n=chatzill@85.97.74.200] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:45:02 "def abs(x): if (x<0) return -x else x" is a bug, I think. 21:45:04 it'd need to be 21:45:11 def abs(x): if (x<0) return -x else return x 21:45:34 plus I'm not certain it's possible to do that all on one line. Whitespace is significant, y'know 21:46:40 ruby is an acceptable lisp, eh? 21:46:43 mmc [n=michal@83-103-88-29.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #scheme 21:47:26 perl is the most acceptable lisp of them all. 21:47:36 I'll accept that 21:49:44 -!- G-Brain [n=G-Brain@ip4da02711.direct-adsl.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:51:22 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-233.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:52:15 -!- greyface [n=greyface@248-177.77-83.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:52:44 greyface [n=greyface@248-177.77-83.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #scheme 21:54:35 -!- greyface [n=greyface@248-177.77-83.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:55:04 offby1: right. I omitted a return 21:55:06 greyface [n=greyface@248-177.77-83.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #scheme 21:55:53 That shows only one of the shortcoming of whitespace-significant syntax 21:58:37 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 21:59:37 -!- rcy`` [n=rcy@S01060002553240a8.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:00:12 -!- greyface [n=greyface@248-177.77-83.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:00:41 how does omitting a keyword demonstrate a shortcoming of whitespace-significant syntax? 22:01:10 This article show that Guido has very little knowledge of programming languages: http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=98196 22:02:02 bpalmer: That was a response to another thing "plus I'm not certain it's possible to do that all on one line. Whitespace is significant" 22:02:18 -!- pchrist|univ [n=spirit@gateway.hpc.cs.teiath.gr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:02:49 I see. 22:03:00 -!- CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-61-150-59.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:03:17 and that article seems quite reasonable. 22:03:36 I don't see where he exposes his language-ignorance. 22:03:45 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0953.versanet.de] has quit [No route to host] 22:05:52 Maybe by his statement that he doesn't understand reduce for nontrivial examples? 22:06:15 At least it shows he doesn't have a lot of _experience_ with functional programming 22:08:02 oSand [n=heartles@203.97.179.3] has joined #scheme 22:08:53 *shrug* or he doesn't think reduce is particularly clear, and as a design decision doesn't think it belongs in core. 22:09:39 Read the paragraph starting with "Why drop lambda?" 22:10:02 lambda is sooo useless 22:11:07 wy: you mean the paragraph where he explains his decision, expressly indicating he's aware of its use in scheme & lisp, and rejecting it as equivalent to another feature he prefers in the language ? 22:11:37 "also, there is a widespread misunderstanding that lambda can do things that a nested function can't -- I still recall Laura Creighton's Aha!-erlebnis after I showed her there was no difference!..." 22:11:50 wy, I don't think it matters how much this guy knows about programming languages, the problem is more that ..... lots of people use this ad-hoc crap 22:12:12 *sjamaan* wonders what a "nested function" is 22:12:22 Is that a named function inside another? 22:12:33 (ie, a lambda with a name assigned to it) 22:12:35 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B057106.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 22:12:56 sjamaan: yes. 22:13:07 vixey: and they will interview you with those questions... 22:13:12 bpalmer: It's really weird to say those are different 22:13:21 huh? 22:13:34 bpalmer: Unless of course you don't have first-class functions in the first place 22:14:32 sjamaan: not sure what you mean. Python's functions are reasonably first-class. 22:14:44 For various reasons, lambdas in python are limited to single expressions; named functions are not. 22:15:17 So "nested functions" are more powerful than "lambdas" 22:15:21 In the python sense 22:15:21 so there is a difference, although it's not conceptually that big; in python, named functions are superior to anonymous functions. 22:15:27 yeah. 22:16:34 wait when did I join #python 22:16:52 hi synx :) 22:17:11 I measure in lambda power 22:17:13 ^.^ 22:18:45 -!- dzhus [n=user@95-24-143-5.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:18:54 vixey: and this crap is going into curriculum of MIT? 22:19:34 yes 22:19:39 vixey: You are so lucky to be in Europe :) 22:19:45 not really it's worse here 22:19:52 sjamaan: I was just comparing named functions to naming lambdas in scheme, when I said they were the same. 22:20:00 vixey: really? 22:20:22 vixey: any way. You know it. That's why you are lucky 22:20:24 but it's for electrical engineering class... they will join NASA and switch to C++ or java anyway. 22:20:58 eli [n=eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 22:21:09 vixey: You can always fool the world with the good things that you have leared 22:21:44 -!- eli [n=eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has left #scheme 22:21:48 r2q2 [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:21:52 eli [n=eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 22:21:57 eli: What's up? 22:22:13 Planes. 22:22:30 At least they're more up than other stuffs. 22:22:30 ? 22:22:34 heh 22:22:41 *sjamaan* referred to the *sigh* 22:23:07 bpalmer: have you heard of the Y combinator? 22:23:22 That's just a random text I put back when I looked at configuring the Emacs IRC client I'm using. 22:23:27 heh 22:23:55 eli: neu? 22:24:13 eli: nu? 22:24:18 neu?? 22:24:22 eli: Are you working with the neu scheme guys (Felleisen)? 22:24:34 mu! 22:24:34 Yes, NEU. 22:25:24 "neu" scheme ? 22:28:07 wy: of course. 22:28:10 PltScheme? 22:28:30 bpalmer: So that's it. names don't matter 22:29:08 wy: PLT in my case. But Larceny is from NEU too (maybe more). 22:30:32 wy: If names don't matter, why are you wy? 22:31:31 bpalmer: I'm wy for no reason 22:31:32 if names truly don't matter, why is it a bother to create them freely? 22:33:08 -!- moghar [n=moghar@unaffiliated/moghar] has left #scheme 22:33:18 The Why of wy 22:33:26 neu scheme guys WTF? 22:33:33 I am a little lisper 22:33:58 wy: Y you you want to know about the y combinator wy? 22:34:11 -!- gnomon [n=gnomon@CPE001d60dffa5c-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["hardware uograde time"] 22:34:13 *do you 22:34:38 -!- sam___ [n=Sami__@e81-197-69-201.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [] 22:34:47 wy not? 22:34:56 I am a bizarre loop 22:34:56 y wy not? 22:35:10 s/bizarre/strange 22:35:10 I'm a little schemer 22:35:11 I am a frayed not, offby1. 22:35:12 Oh noes you are hofstader. HE MUST BE. 22:35:12 *offby1* mangles quotes 22:35:14 *offby1* slaps bpalmer upside the haid 22:35:32 offby1: But your off by 1 for the loop to be entered? 22:35:33 *offby1* reflexively throws his dentures at mbishop 22:35:52 I know y'all can't believe this but I _still_ haven't bound that to an abbrev 22:36:12 :) 22:36:18 /dentures 22:36:21 can't think of what to abbreviate it to. 22:36:21 slow reflexes, then. 22:36:45 I am a little lion. 22:36:58 are you a small cretan? 22:37:22 A little lyin', A few untruths 22:37:31 a misstatement here and there 22:37:37 a jug of wine 22:37:38 r2q2: hofstader? 22:38:08 heh http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.scheme/msg/89120d79e5650d94 22:38:50 wy: Read godel escher bach 22:38:59 wy: his other books are sort of philosophical. 22:39:16 r2q2: I tried to read that book, but never finished 22:39:19 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-235-98.dsl.look.ca] has joined #scheme 22:39:51 r2q2: GEB is philosophical 22:40:00 *sjamaan* wonders how philosophical his other books must be 22:40:18 sjamaan: I think he got more philosophical. 22:40:33 sjamaan: I don't know someone who read both books said something to that effect. 22:40:37 r2q2: I just had a little impression as if he is trying to solve the halting problem 22:40:48 wy: You can solve the halting problem. 22:40:55 wy: Just design a computer that isn't turing complete. 22:41:08 wy: Or precompute the values for halting with a specialized machine. It just takes a long damn time. 22:41:21 lelf [n=lelf@217.118.90.134] has joined #scheme 22:41:31 r2q2: That's not halting problem any more :p 22:41:47 r2q2: What's the book mainly about? 22:42:29 wy: Strange loops. He puts the thesis that people are strange loops. 22:42:40 wy: musings about programming, Goedel's incompleteness theorem, self-reference ... 22:42:40 wy: Yea actually now you are computing omega 22:42:47 lotsa stuff. Hard to summarize. 22:42:47 benny [n=benny@i577A0953.versanet.de] has joined #scheme 22:43:30 wy: Omega is a number derivied from the halting problem. You can compute subsets of omega but you can never write it down. It is a number which can't be computed only described. 22:43:48 wy: I believe it is the halting probability. 22:44:09 r2q2: Is the same as ((lambda (x) (x x)) (lambda (x) (x x))) ? 22:44:11 wy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaitin's_constant 22:44:29 wy: That would give you one value in the omega number I believe. 22:44:47 "The catch is that this number - this probability - is a number which is easy to define; it's not computable; it's completely uncompressible; it's normal." 22:44:57 good math, bad math had a good writeup the other day. 22:45:26 it's monkeys all the way down. 22:45:50 r2q2: I read Chaitin's book some time ago. I didn't find any difference in it from Turing, Godel's stuff 22:46:02 wy: The omega man book? 22:46:18 wy: Read his REAL books on algorithmic information theory not the crap they give out for commoners. 22:46:28 r2q2: The one is called "The Limits of Mathematics" 22:47:00 r2q2: which one. but those are all his writings 22:47:16 wy: Well. 22:47:29 wy: Algorithimic information theory is pretty new. 22:47:48 r2q2: I had no motivation to read his books after met him in person... 22:48:11 hahaha 22:48:21 *vixey* I have no motivation to read his books /without/ meeting him 22:48:34 vixey: why? 22:48:58 looks like math for people that don't understand math -- not that I even read the blurb, so just guessing 22:49:02 vy: There is always the other founders who aren't as crazy. 22:49:18 vixey: Maybe you should read more before you make a decision? 22:49:38 not really interested in making informed decisions about things when I can make wild claims and offend people 22:49:52 go! 22:49:55 vixey: Who said you were offending people? 22:49:59 vixey: You don't offend me. 22:50:05 that's a shame :p 22:50:10 vixey: Why is that a shame? 22:50:19 vixey: I don't understand. 22:50:37 because it means vixey failed in his trolling. 22:51:12 hehe 22:51:35 wy: Anyways even if you are vixey and don't like chatlin there is the other founders. 22:51:42 wy: I will admit chatlin is pretty nuts. 22:51:52 r2q2, was talking about GEB 22:52:52 vixey: oh that one. yea did you read that one? 22:52:52 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:52:58 r2q2: I would be interested in Kolmogrov 22:53:00 r2q2, I'm obviously not really following the conversation as well as others 22:53:10 vixey: Me too I am bad at following conversations. 22:53:20 vixey: i have this thing called emacs which records my conversations. 22:53:22 my statement "looks like pseudomath for people that don't understand math" is about GEB 22:53:22 I'm using ERC Version 5.2 with GNU Emacs 22.2.50.1 (powerpc-apple-darwin9.3.0, Mac Carbon) of 2008-07-16. 22:53:25 which I haven't read 22:53:32 vixey: Yea its pretty long buddy. 22:53:43 don't call me buddy thanks 22:54:06 r2q2: There is a log http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/scheme/ 22:54:07 vixey: I haven't read most of it either. You can get the same thing from reading godels book which is 100 pages, reading turnings paper which is about 20 pages and then playing a bach piece which is 2 pages. 22:54:18 vixey: Saves you about 300 pages. 22:54:21 vixey: it's _deeply_ mathematical. 22:54:29 I wouldn't say it's pseudo-math; it's the real thing. 22:54:40 offby1, reading a book about math vs doing math? I doubt it 22:54:40 vixey: oh you were talking about GEB? 22:54:56 -!- aardvarq [i=tgAardva@student3113.student.nau.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:54:58 wy, yeah, I got mixed up. Not sure what to think about Chaitin 22:55:18 r2q2: Bach rules! 22:55:18 vixey: Yea GEB is LONG WINDED. you don't need so much writing to explain the concepts. 22:55:22 wy, he's certainly represented old, well known theorems, in a new way which is easy to understand 22:55:24 wy: I play bach. 22:55:38 -!- Cale [n=Cale@CPE001c10c70239-CM000e5cdd834a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Success] 22:55:39 wy, which is great.. but it's analogy not really math 22:55:55 Cale [n=Cale@CPE001c10c70239-CM000e5cdd834a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 22:56:16 (just referring to the stuff he published on his site though) 22:56:32 vixey: Eh chatlin is as bad as GEB> 22:56:43 vixey: Try harder trolling you can troll on chatlin too. 22:56:55 sladegen, shut the fuck up 22:57:22 sladegen, what you don't realize is that some people take what you say as fact 22:57:22 vixey: Cmon buddy. 22:57:31 vixey: TROLL CHATLIN 22:57:39 vixey: LURK MOAR 22:58:15 -!- MichaelRaskin_1 [n=raskin@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has left #scheme 22:58:26 vixey: nick changer, and that's a fact! 22:58:37 oh man this is going to be fucking hilarious. 22:58:54 raikov [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has joined #scheme 22:59:34 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 23:00:05 sladegen: it would just be a lot better if you didn't make your funny jokes about stuff when it involves me 23:01:02 Who's hungry for ass burgers? I loves me some ass burgers. 23:02:39 *r2q2* summons Riastradh 23:03:30 vixey: you are free to make as many unfanny jokes about me as you like. it's all special olympics anyway. 23:04:08 sladegen: not interested.. I'm saying that although it might seems like an amusing comment to say I'm trolling, you've just taught r2q2 a new insult 23:04:25 sladegen: I wonder if you noticed it happen? 23:04:29 -!- eli [n=eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has left #scheme 23:04:37 eli [n=eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 23:04:45 children children 23:05:00 -!- eli [n=eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has left #scheme 23:05:07 eli [n=eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 23:05:36 what is going on here? 23:05:40 nope. 23:06:56 Elly: I don't know I have the master and sockpupets on ignore. 23:07:15 oh, I see 23:07:25 Riastradh: ping 23:09:23 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 23:10:47 Elly: what's going on is that my /ignore list has attained record length. 23:10:59 that's pretty cool, but carries no useful information 23:14:37 -!- Daemmerung [n=goetter@1133sae.mazama.net] has left #scheme 23:17:51 lotta insults back 'n' forth. 23:18:05 dunno if it's still going on, what with me /ignoring so many people 23:18:24 just don't /ignore yourself 23:18:43 or better yet 23:18:46 DO /ignore yourself! 23:19:36 *offby1* whistles innocently 23:19:43 *offby1* plugs fingers in ears 23:19:50 can't hear you, la la la la 23:19:54 uh oh,I've summoned duncanm 23:25:21 -!- hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD125054017176.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit ["|_ e /\ \/ i |/| G"] 23:31:52 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:33:10 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 23:35:07 Hey guys... reading a tutorial on using macros in Scheme, and the author makes this statement: 'When not to use macros: Any time you can avoid it! Don't use them for efficiency hacks. Let the computer handle that.' I'm curious to see whether people agree/disagree with the first and second parts of this statement. 23:35:40 I agree with that pretty much bombshelter13. 23:36:12 Every time I use macros, or even syntaxes, I always end up losing control of the complexity and finding a simpler way to do it without messing with the syntax. 23:36:21 kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-107-51-222.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 23:36:43 On Lisp will give you good idea when to avoid macros 23:38:01 synx: What about the efficiency part? Do you agree because even if you could gain efficiency by using a macro you prefer not to, or are situations where you could gain efficiency with a macro sufficiently rare that it's not worth it? 23:38:28 vixey: *adds it to reading list* :) 23:38:32 sufficiently rare. 23:38:46 bombshelter13: there are some algorithmic optimizations which make sense as macros but it's rare 23:38:57 macros are not for increasing efficiency. They're for increasing readability. When they don't, I don't use them. 23:39:22 bombshelter13, oh it's not really worth reading, It's just got lots of silly uses of macros in it (like calculating the mean of a list) 23:39:48 vixey: ahh, alright. 23:40:52 -!- elmex [n=elmex@e180065012.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:40:56 CodeWar [n=CodeWar@c-67-180-63-18.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:41:15 -!- wy [n=wy@c-67-176-147-116.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:41:54 If avoiding macros when possible is the consensus, is there another approach I can take to producing a procedure/macro/other-thing that takes a procedure as input and returns a structurally modified version of it? Or is that a case when macros are the only option? 23:42:47 I don't advise avoiding macros 23:42:58 Use them every time that they are the right thing to use ... 23:43:14 bombshelter13: do you have an instance of the kind of thing you're talking about? 23:44:14 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-141-157-251-219.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:44:23 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-141-157-251-219.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 23:48:14 klutometis: Yeah, actually... I have a procedure that accepts as arguments a function generating a random number and a list of the form (list 1 3 "Red" 2 5 "Blue" 6 6"Green")... the return value of this procedure is itself a procedure.. the returned procedure, when called, invokes the random number generation function and picks an item from a list it holds in a lexical variable (the list having been produced out of a transformation of t 23:48:37 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-61-150-59.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:48:38 Now, I am trying to make a procedure that I can pass that procedure to that will modify the contents of the data structure it holds. 23:48:56 have you seen this thing: 23:49:01 (DEFINE COUNTER 23:49:05 (LET ((VALUE 0)) 23:49:07 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 23:49:10 (LAMBDA () 23:49:17 (SET VALUE (+ 1 VALUE)) 23:49:22 VALUE))) 23:49:54 Looks straight forwards so far? 23:49:57 when you use it, (COUNTER) ~~> 1, (COUNTER) ~~> 2 23:50:06 oops 23:50:08 (SET! VALUE (+ 1 VALUE)) 23:50:32 but maybe this sort of way works better than a macro in that ase 23:52:31 -!- CodeWar [n=CodeWar@c-67-180-63-18.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:52:48 Hmm 23:52:52 Here's a more trivial example 23:52:58 let's say I have a procedure '(lambda (x) (let ((my-num 10)) (+ x 10)))' 23:52:58 I too avoid macros, simply because they're confusing. 23:53:38 Er 23:53:40 sorry 23:53:48 (lambda (x) (let ((my-num 10)) (+ x my-num))) 23:54:05 (lambda (x) (lambda (y) (+ x y))) 23:54:17 aw, the first version was more interesting :) 23:54:39 I want to pass that to something, along with a second argument new-val, and, in return, get (lambda (x) (let ((my-num new-val)) (+ x my-num))) 23:55:26 bombshelter13, do it like my COUNTER example, except change (LAMBDA () ...) to (LAMBDA (MESSAGE . ARGS) ...) 23:55:43 that way you can choose what to do (and change) inside the procedure based on the message 23:56:03 where (LET ((VALUE 0)) ...) is all the state the object holds 23:56:10 (lambda (new-val) (lambda (x) (let ((my-num new-val) (+ x my-num))))) 23:56:14 -!- evoli [n=yuhsin@61-228-31-212.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit ["leaving"] 23:56:15 it would be fine also, to write some kind of macro, 23:56:15 got nottin' to do with macros 23:56:19 (DEFINE-CLASS COUNTER 23:56:26 ((VALUE 0)) 23:56:32 just a function what returns another function. 23:56:41 ((INCREMENT) (SET! VALUE (+ VALUE 1))) 23:56:46 ((READ) VALUE))) 23:57:05 so that you don't have to write the DEFINE/LET/LAMBDA thing over and over 23:57:23 bombshelter13: (is this making sense ?) 23:57:35 -!- lelf [n=lelf@217.118.90.134] has quit ["used jmIrc"] 23:57:38 offby1: but how do I get that function to dig into and modify the structure of the one it's passed? 23:58:05 As far as i can tell, I can't use car/cdr/set-car!/set-cdr!, etc, on a procedure. 23:58:23 bombshelter13: I guess not then 23:58:29 vixey: I'm still having trouble seeing how I can use it to modify a procedure. :/ 23:58:35 you can't 23:58:39 macros can't do it either 23:59:25 I'm still having trouble seeing *why* you wan't to modify a procedure. 23:59:30 -!- vixey [n=vicky@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit]