00:04:46 -!- kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 00:05:23 kniu [n=kniu@LEMON.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 00:06:25 -!- Def is now known as Deformati 00:11:16 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:12:45 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 00:13:45 JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182ddad4.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 00:17:46 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-38-250.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 00:19:29 gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has joined #scheme 00:21:21 -!- orgy` [n=ratm_@pD9FFE33F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:24:39 duncanm: so what's the goal... it looks like parts of commander-s (dummy) works once and spews warnings about unknown vars from ncurses... and then it gets stuck. 00:26:00 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-47-208.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 00:26:03 -!- tizoc_ is now known as tizoc 00:31:48 fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-084-059-133-037.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 00:51:20 nicholasw [n=nw@ckc-109-118.ResHall.Berkeley.EDU] has joined #scheme 01:08:20 -!- luz [n=davids@201.19.17.90] has quit ["Client exiting"] 01:10:55 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:11:14 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-247-166-57.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 01:15:10 cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-233-165-252.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:17:56 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-233-165-252.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:19:30 saccade [n=saccade@65.78.24.47] has joined #scheme 01:20:46 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:21:27 -!- indraastra [n=indraast@nat08.sjc1.metaweb.com] has left #scheme 01:25:00 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:25:42 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #scheme 01:25:44 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 01:36:43 -!- Arelius [n=Indy@netblock-68-183-230-134.dslextreme.com] has quit [] 01:41:03 rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 01:41:40 synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has joined #scheme 01:54:48 proqesi [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #scheme 01:58:35 -!- fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-084-059-133-037.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:58:42 -!- hemulen [n=hemulen@cpe-069-134-114-252.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:03:37 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:10:28 -!- BW^- [i=Miranda@79.138.153.132.bredband.tre.se] has quit ["Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org"] 02:10:52 -!- saccade [n=saccade@65.78.24.47] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:11:32 -!- JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182ddad4.dyn.optonline.net] has left #scheme 02:21:21 Strav [n=user@dsl-216-221-38-85.aei.ca] has joined #scheme 02:21:32 -!- Strav [n=user@dsl-216-221-38-85.aei.ca] has left #scheme 02:22:29 *offby1* laughs cruelly 02:23:25 *Riastradh* blinks. 02:23:40 hey, it was just two hours ago. 02:23:47 (sladegen struggling with commander-s) 02:24:45 I have a headache. 02:24:49 I think I'm going into muffin withdrawal. 02:28:49 aw. 02:28:57 I hear they're easy to make 02:29:01 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:29:16 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #scheme 02:33:59 Yes, but inadequate muffination poses a problem for operating the machinery needed to make muffins. 02:38:04 Are we talking English or American muffins? 02:38:33 Does it matter? 02:39:13 American muffins are easy to make. I've never tried English muffins. 02:39:26 (not that I have a muffin tin at the moment...) 02:39:27 saccade [n=saccade@65.78.24.47] has joined #scheme 02:39:30 They're both beyond the capacity of a poor chap demuffeinated! 02:42:47 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless233.wireless.utah.edu] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:48:30 pi-meson [n=jonas@c-76-24-24-108.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:49:09 jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-18.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:49:11 -!- melito [n=melito@70.99.250.82] has quit ["Leaving..."] 02:49:13 this is a plt-specific question, but i've been unable to find the answer on-line -- is there any way to get mzscheme 4.x to accept cond expressions without an else clause? 02:49:43 jcowan, I give up. What was the reference to Rio de Janeiro that you found in foof-loop.txt? (Also, there is a new introductory paragraph which gnomon and I believe to be much improved over the former one.) 02:49:58 I forget. 02:49:59 (or the allusion; I can't remember now which you said you found) 02:50:01 Give me the URL again. 02:50:11 02:50:32 pi-meson: bizarre; doesn't it contravene r5rs not to allow the exclusion of else? 02:50:35 specbot: r5rs cond 02:50:35 http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-7.html#%_idx_106 02:50:38 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/3gogwm 02:50:47 klutometis: It means it's in some non-r5rs-compatible mode. 02:51:43 -!- Mr_Awesome [n=eric@isr5956.urh.uiuc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:51:56 jcowan: and thereby no less bizarre... ;) 02:53:08 oh lovely, the people who wrote this code didn't conform to either r5rs or r6rs. grr. 02:53:18 pi-meson: It does allow them. 02:53:22 rudybot: eval (cond [(< 2 3) 4]) 02:53:23 eli: ; Value: 4 02:54:20 pi-meson, to PLT Scheme, the R5RS is obsolete. To everyone but a select few persons on this planet to whom I shall refrain from applying colourful adjectives, the R6RS is a practically useless misdesign. 02:54:56 Riastradh: R5RS is not obsolete to PLT. 02:55:23 ha, look, i'm not trying to start that particular flamewar, I'm just trying to figure out what the heck mode these collaborators were writing in :) 02:55:28 Oh? Apologies -- I did not realize that. I will confess that I never heard that stated outright, and only inferred it from conversations. 02:56:26 The word that is used is "legacy" that doesn't imply obsolete-ness or we're-not-going-to-fix-bug-ness. 02:56:53 jcowan_ [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-18.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:56:55 OK. 02:57:30 In any case, it does allow `else'-less `cond's in both r5rs and the usual language. 02:57:40 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-18.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 02:57:44 -!- jcowan_ is now known as jcowan 02:57:46 eli: what about else-less ifs? 02:57:52 In fact, the only languages I can think of that forbids that are the student languages. 02:58:27 pi-meson: else-less `if's are not allowed in the usual PLT language -- we have `when' and `unless' for that. 02:58:40 (It is, of course, allowed in the r5rs language.) 02:59:16 (Out of curiosity, am I the only one who is thrown off any time he see UNLESS, and requires measurable cognitive overhead to adjust?) 02:59:34 Which is unfortunate, since I tend to use (if #f #f) as an idiom for an unspecified value. 03:00:10 eli: do you know if this behavior changed between plt 3 and 4? 03:00:11 Riastradh: I think that you're not the only one -- IIRC, I see here and there people who prefer to use only `when'. 03:00:23 pi-meson: which behavior -- `cond' or `else'? 03:00:34 eli: else 03:00:42 "else" in "if", in particular 03:00:47 foof: we have (void) for that. (But not in the r5rs language too.) 03:01:09 eli: I write quite a lot of portable code. 03:01:30 Riastradh: it was the "mountain of (syntactic) sugar", which immediately made me think of Sugar Loaf Mountain. 03:01:39 I see. 03:01:48 Technically (if #f #f) isn't portable, but mzscheme is just about the only implementation that doesn't allow it. 03:01:49 pi-meson: yes, I should have asked `cond' or `if'. Anyway, yes, this was a change in version 4 -- but old code should not have been affected because the `mzscheme' language ("legacy" too) still accepts else-less `if's. 03:02:13 foof: If you write portable code, then the code should be in the r5rs language, no? 03:02:16 foof, can you clarify the proposition `(IF #F #F) is portable'? 03:02:30 ...and in that case you still get (if #f #f) to do the common thing. 03:03:04 foof, and explain with what technicality it fails to be true? 03:03:56 eli: so it looks like the claudes in question that are dying are "(if (some-expression) foo)" with "must have an "else" expression" -- just using "mzscheme" from the command line 03:04:06 Riastradh: Oops, nevermind... I keep thinking the one-branch if is only an optional extension in R5RS. 03:04:16 -!- nicholasw [n=nw@ckc-109-118.ResHall.Berkeley.EDU] has quit [] 03:04:18 benny` [n=benny@i577A0733.versanet.de] has joined #scheme 03:04:44 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0733.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:05:00 I'm off on a quest for muffins. 03:05:01 pi-meson: this is because running "mzscheme" defaults to the `scheme' language; to get it in the legacy language, use "mzscheme -I mzscheme" 03:05:31 eli: thank you so much 03:05:35 pi-meson: ... or you can also use "mzscheme -I r5rs" to get r5rs. 03:06:11 eli: Not really, e.g. irregex will load and run in any R[456]RS system. Since in PLT v4 the R[56]RS languages are ghettos with poor interaction with the rest of PLT, it makes a lot more sense to make it a module for the normal `scheme' language. 03:06:46 -!- suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:06:58 foof: I'm not sure what you're referring to. 03:07:21 suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 03:07:30 Riastradh: Actually, I will admit that I find unless more readable for me than WHEN. 03:07:44 I find myself using UNLESS much more often than WHEN. 03:08:19 foof: Are you saying that you *want* the usual plt languages because you don't want to use the mutable pairs? 03:08:25 What are the (dis)merits of (if #f #f) vs. (values) for an unspecified value? 03:08:40 *arcfide* prefers (VOID), personally. 03:08:41 -!- suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:08:42 klutometis: they're very different. 03:08:45 eli: I'm saying I try to write portable code using a lowest common denominator of common standards and implementations. 03:08:48 arcfide: isn't that a chezism? 03:08:55 rudybot: eval (define blah (values)) 03:08:55 eli: error: define-values: context (defining "blah") expected 1 value, received 0 values 03:09:01 suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 03:09:10 klutometis, it isn't portable, if that's what you mean, but there are some others out there that use it I think. 03:09:34 foof: In that case you should be using the r5rs language, I think. 03:09:35 incubot: (define rara (values)) 03:09:36 # 03:09:52 incubot: (define blah (values 1 2 3)) 03:09:52 # 03:10:02 incubot: (let () (define blah (values 1 2 3)) blah) 03:10:03 1 03:10:05 The reason I find UNLESS more useful to me generally is because I tend to use one-armed conditionals for error checking, and the the phrasing more naturally mirrors my own thinking. 03:10:13 eli: that irritates me about chicken, actually 03:10:18 the truncation of values 03:10:31 klutometis: yes, I was about to say that it looks like it does the CL thing. 03:10:31 I prefer to see the conditions I want satisfied in the code, rather than a (NOT ...) with a WHEN. 03:10:43 eli: That won't work because irregex uses lists in its API. So if it were R5RS, you wouldn't be able to use it from normal PLT code. 03:10:46 rudybot: eval (let () (define blah (values 1 2 3)) blah) 03:10:47 klutometis: error: context expected 1 value, received 3 values: 1 2 3 03:10:51 that seems more intuitive 03:11:15 What's this, we have a new bot? 03:11:20 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [No route to host] 03:11:27 just a chicken-repl-cum-stochastic-convo 03:11:59 I should put up a Petite Chez repl or something. 03:12:11 Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-212-176.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:12:15 arcfide: but is (VOID) a chez-innovation, or not? 03:12:34 klutometis: I do not know the etymology of VOID, but I know that Chez has it. 03:12:35 foof: Ah, ok. In that case you can use the `mzscheme' language, or better (IMO) define your own language with single-sided `if's. 03:13:03 foof: (the reason I think that the latter makes sense is that it will make it even easier to define other compatibility conveniences this way.) 03:13:12 (Ah... irregex uses SET-CDR! So the point is moot in this case, I'm just arguing in general.) 03:13:55 `set-cdr!', IMO, is even more evil than `set-car!'... 03:14:33 Why so, eli? 03:14:56 -!- underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052011.bbtec.net] has quit [] 03:15:21 jcowan: it tends to have more "surprising" effect, IMO (or IME) -- but that's because of the usual way to encode lists with the data in the `car' fields. 03:15:22 -!- suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:15:29 Fair enough. 03:15:37 suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 03:16:37 Although `set-cdr!' is common in cases where you want to reorganize the list like `reverse!', `sort!', and `append!'. (And in each of these the sanity is held by the dynamic locality of these mutations.) 03:17:11 (And continuations can very exoticly break this locality in unexpected ways, which is how you can easily get to all kinds of Bad Things.) 03:17:21 [exotically] 03:18:02 -!- suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:18:19 One of the uses of SET-CDR! would be easy to remove. Another would be hairy. 03:19:09 foof: in irregex? 03:19:13 yeah 03:19:30 What's the hairy one doing that makes it hard to remove? 03:19:30 Joining new NFA transitions. 03:20:17 foof: When Matthew commited the change he had a long post saying that he didn't see any case where it was difficult to get rid of them. 03:20:43 suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 03:20:45 -!- incubot [n=incubot@24.205.65.135] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:20:55 In your case it sounds like you could solve it by introducing a box (which you probably won't want), or by a mutable struct. 03:20:57 Yes... and I a found case that was a much better example than irregex and can't remember what it was. 03:21:18 eli: Neither of which is portable :/ 03:21:33 Isn't there some records srfi? 03:21:53 Several. 03:22:04 srfi-9, but the simplest "box" is just a closure, which is very portable. 03:22:09 SRFIs can't be loaded portably. irregex really just works with (load "irregex.scm") in any system. 03:22:53 Alternatively, you could just define your own constructor/accessors/mutators and implement them in an implementation-dependent way; using mcons/etc in plt and cons/etc otherwise. 03:23:32 -!- proqesi [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:23:35 You could even just use mcons/etc everywhere, and have a compatibility code define them as cons/etc wherever they're missing. 03:23:46 The entire _point_ is not to have any implementation-specific code. 03:24:07 I wouldn't use closures because set! is too ugly, but I could use vectors I suppose. 03:24:42 ... set! is uglier than set-cdr!? 03:24:51 yes 03:25:13 set! can always be replaced by boxes, and boxes can always be replaced by conses. 03:25:22 foof: You want an actual *practical* library that is both portable and with no implementation-specific adaptations?? 03:25:30 npe [n=npe@66.112.249.148] has joined #scheme 03:25:36 Well, then. I shall cease giving advice, since my sense of aesthetics obviously differs greatly from yours. 03:25:38 eli: Yes, and irregex is just that. 03:25:41 That's pretty... brave. 03:25:46 incubot [n=incubot@24.205.65.135] has joined #scheme 03:26:30 is there a plt mode that defines a symbol "false" ? or are my collaborators smoking crack? 03:26:35 It also includes things like its own simple char-set implementation, pushing it to 3000 lines :( 03:26:46 eli: Hey, he's just trying to prove all of us CLers wrong. When useful implementation-independent libraries are possible in Scheme, we'll know the Lispocalypse is upon us. 03:26:55 foof: I'm not surprised... I was serious in using "brave". 03:27:34 It's just that I don't remember anyone trying that particular approach. 03:28:04 Mr_Awesome [n=eric@c-98-212-143-245.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:28:11 The immuple and fvector libraries I keep trying to get around to writing should be entirely R5RS. 03:28:18 foof: Apologies for my ignorance, but does the library involve lists in its interface? 03:28:24 or rather immuple/fvector library 03:28:45 ["immuple"?] 03:30:47 short for immutable tuple 03:31:03 Arelius [n=Indy@netblock-68-183-230-134.dslextreme.com] has joined #scheme 03:32:35 as fvector is short for functional vector 03:37:33 jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:41:46 -!- saccade [n=saccade@65.78.24.47] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:46:08 lelelele [n=le@62.212.202.113] has joined #scheme 03:46:24 -!- lelelele [n=le@62.212.202.113] has left #scheme 03:46:45 Cale [n=Cale@CPE001c10c70239-CM000e5cdd834a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 03:47:09 lelelele [n=le@62.212.202.113] has joined #scheme 03:47:13 let me know 03:47:28 is there a difference dialect of scheme in language of ruby? 03:48:07 map: arity mismatch for procedure ...ktop\project2.ss:210:7: expects 2 arguments, given 1 03:48:09 chandler, to be honest, although I won't say anything about the aesthetic nature of SET! versus SET-CAR!, I think that SET! is a much more objectionable construct than SET-CAR!, and leads to far more unnecessary confusion in novices than does SET-CAR!, because it implies a transient, second-class mutable data structure. 03:48:44 Second-class I understand, but how transient? 03:48:52 never mind i'm an idiot 03:50:08 jcowan, consider (DEFINE (F X) (SET! X 5)). 03:50:19 eli: Yes, very fundamentally - the primary regexp syntax is SREs. 03:50:29 jcowan, there is a transient cell here, whose extent is not stated explicitly in the program. 03:51:04 -!- lelelele [n=le@62.212.202.113] has left #scheme 03:52:41 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:53:21 elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has joined #scheme 03:54:16 No more and no less so than an envirronment frame, no? 03:54:46 It is an environment frame. 03:56:38 Anyway, the point is that this construct is very confusing and adds little to the language. 03:56:51 hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #scheme 03:57:38 On the other hand, if you're just going to use boxes it may be better to use SET! and let the compiler figure out the best way to implement it. 03:57:53 That's an issue of pragmatics. 03:58:05 i keep trying to make a set difference function to calculate the difference in two lists 03:58:17 but get void references 03:58:32 (define set-difference L1 L2 03:58:32 (cons (map (lambda(x) 03:58:32 (if (not (member? x L2)) x)) 03:58:32 L1)) 03:58:32 ) 03:58:47 Please don't paste code into the channel like that, Eekdacat. Use lisppaste: 03:58:48 lisppaste: url 03:58:49 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste. 03:59:36 i'm guessing the else of the if would be an empty list and i'd fold them or something 04:00:03 Eek -- a mouse 04:00:03 Anyway, I'm all for more functional Scheme, and am glad that a major implementation had the guts to switch to immutable pairs (though I think strings are a better candidate for immutability). 04:00:19 *offby1* votes for immortality 04:00:24 Omitting SET! doesn't make Scheme any `more functional'. 04:00:44 -!- elmex [n=elmex@e180066123.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:00:47 Riastradh: (talking to eli :P) 04:00:49 saccade [n=saccade@65.78.24.47] has joined #scheme 04:01:14 Oh, sorry. 04:01:30 But the switch is not as painless and its proponents claim, and there are real useful idioms that just don't translate to immutable pairs. 04:01:53 elmex [n=elmex@e180068048.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 04:02:15 -!- incubot [n=incubot@24.205.65.135] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:03:01 -!- elmex [n=elmex@e180068048.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:04:07 anyway after fixing the syntax errors in that code, (set-difference `(1 2 3 4 5) `(1 2 3)) returns ((# # # 4 5)) 04:05:27 -!- Arelius [n=Indy@netblock-68-183-230-134.dslextreme.com] has quit [] 04:07:24 incubot [n=incubot@24.205.65.135] has joined #scheme 04:11:53 i set () as the else condition and did a foldr append () list-of-lists but it didn't change 04:14:52 -!- zncbtrn [n=zencubot@modemcable060.30-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 04:15:10 (set-difference `(1 2 3) `(3)) is returning (1 2 ()) 04:17:11 underspecified [n=eric@clair16.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 04:18:32 -!- pi-meson [n=jonas@c-76-24-24-108.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:20:42 Arelius [n=Indy@netblock-68-183-230-134.dslextreme.com] has joined #scheme 04:20:48 foof which major implementation? 04:21:41 PLT 04:29:46 -!- MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:31:19 -!- suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:32:14 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:32:54 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #scheme 04:33:30 -!- bombshel1er13 [n=bombshel@209-161-229-68.dsl.look.ca] has quit [No route to host] 04:33:51 suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 04:35:02 pi-meson [n=jonas@c-76-24-24-108.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:38:02 -!- gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has left #scheme 04:41:01 Riastradh: if you are around, might I inquire as to your reasons for disliking UNLESS? What messes with your brain when you see it? 04:42:37 -!- Arelius [n=Indy@netblock-68-183-230-134.dslextreme.com] has quit [] 04:45:28 *jcowan* is a big fan of UNLESS and UNTIL. 04:46:20 (flatten L) is just foldr flatten () L, right 04:46:25 -!- Mr_Awesome [n=eric@c-98-212-143-245.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:47:02 It better not be. "Recursion: see recursion." 04:47:13 -!- pi-meson [n=jonas@c-76-24-24-108.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:47:16 -!- npe [n=npe@66.112.249.148] has quit [] 04:47:27 er 04:47:31 foldr append () L 04:48:42 foof: Well, re pains: seems like your pains would be gone if all implementations would switch to immutable pairs (since then we can assume that all would need to have mutable structs, or mpairs, or something equivalent) 04:48:45 foof: and btw: 04:48:48 rudybot: eval (immutable? "foo") 04:48:49 eli: ; Value: #t 04:53:43 -!- cpfr [n=cf@dynamic-162-079.usc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:56:08 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-137-200-152.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:57:21 minion: chant 04:57:22 MORE THINKING 04:59:42 no flatten with higher-level functions appears to be working 04:59:57 i tried (foldr append () L) and (apply append L ()) 05:02:18 benny [n=benny@i577A0567.versanet.de] has joined #scheme 05:04:32 -!- benny` [n=benny@i577A0733.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:06:26 cpfr [n=cf@cpe-76-171-165-212.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 05:10:27 tjafk1 [n=timj@e176218074.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 05:10:55 -!- incubot [n=incubot@24.205.65.135] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:11:03 higepon291 [n=taro@218-223-22-146.bitcat.net] has joined #scheme 05:13:13 incubot [n=incubot@24.205.65.135] has joined #scheme 05:13:20 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[n=Modius@adsl-68-93-132-132.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:29:44 Modius [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-132-132.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 07:38:26 underspecified [n=eric@clair16.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 07:38:26 -!- underspecified_ [n=eric@clair16.naist.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:43:53 -!- proqesi [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:49:58 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-18.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Bailing out"] 07:51:40 hml_ [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #scheme 08:09:10 a1len_ [n=James@cpe-76-174-234-139.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 08:13:05 -!- raikov [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:18:22 -!- hml_ [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has quit ["leaving"] 08:18:38 -!- hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:18:54 -!- a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:24:08 -!- a1len_ is now known as a1len 08:34:50 -!- pchrist_ [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 08:35:25 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 08:51:04 pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has joined #scheme 08:53:04 -!- xz [n=ramana@c-98-228-42-177.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:55:56 eli: Sure, string literals are already supposed to be immutable according to R5RS. I think _all_ strings should be immutable. 08:57:49 xz [n=ramana@c-98-228-42-177.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 08:58:15 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #scheme 08:59:01 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 08:59:18 -!- pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:00:35 foof: that probably won't even be a big change 09:01:19 But there's smaller motivation to do so because you don't get much benefits from most common code. 09:01:26 I think so, at least. 09:02:06 I think allowing all strings to share space, and potentially having small "immediate" strings is a big benefit. 09:03:22 yeah 09:03:25 You mean destorying immediate strings uniqueness? -- which might cause breaks, and in Scheme there's less motivation for that anyway because we have symbols for that. 09:03:38 even let the strings share space if they have similar parts 09:03:46 [Not that I personally would have a problem with that.] 09:04:22 like "hello world" and "world" the second string just points to later in the first one 09:04:44 Yes, `substring' being just a cons would be a banefit. 09:04:57 in space saving 09:04:58 Probably more from indirect uses like `regexp-match'. 09:05:05 that too 09:05:07 well 09:05:19 depends on how it's structured 09:05:25 sili [n=sili@222.127.162.227] has joined #scheme 09:05:39 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-137-202-169.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:06:07 If there are no mutable strings their uniqueness doesn't matter. 09:06:39 what if they are mutable? 09:06:44 are you destroying set! too? 09:07:01 er 09:07:04 foof: I meant existing code, something like (let ([none "foo"]) (if (eq? none (hash-ref t x none))) ...) 09:07:07 it's not set! 09:07:42 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 09:07:45 anyone familiar with the lalr chicken egg or LALR in general? I can't seem to write the correct rule for a comma-separated list 09:08:01 eli: That's already unspecified in R5RS. 09:08:23 foof: I know, with a bunch of other things. 09:08:38 But I completely agree that breakage would be minimal, if any. 09:09:05 So no one does that. The idiom is to create a fresh cons cell, e.g. (let ((none (list 'none))) ...) 09:09:08 BTW, at least in plt a string is represented as a pointer and a length -- add an offset to that (at the core) would be easy. But it should also be reflected in the GC -- if you take a substring of a huge string you want to be able to GC the huge string even when you're holding to the smaller one. 09:09:34 true 09:10:08 ...but even that not always: 09:10:12 rudybot: eval (regexp-split #rx" +" "foo bar baz blah") 09:10:12 eli: ; Value: ("foo" "bar" "baz" "blah") 09:10:37 There's little point in collecting the big string if you hold on to all the little fragements... 09:12:10 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 09:29:00 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 09:29:42 schmalbe [n=bernhard@p549A3A27.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 09:34:33 jgracin [n=jgracin@93-138-73-111.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #scheme 09:45:51 -!- kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:55:51 Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has joined #scheme 10:07:55 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-174-236.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 10:12:00 ventonegro [n=user@136.166.1.3] has joined #scheme 10:19:20 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 10:19:46 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:23:39 -!- attila_lendvai_ is now known as attila_lendvai 10:25:11 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-174-236.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:32:24 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-2-192.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 10:32:44 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 10:32:57 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 10:36:16 fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-084-059-133-037.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 10:44:32 arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-137-201-148.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 10:44:53 -!- gaja [n=Gabriel@c-2791e355.017-40-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["t"] 10:46:56 -!- a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 10:47:51 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B057B84.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 10:53:15 -!- geckosenator [n=sean@c-24-8-193-190.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:01:30 elmex [n=elmex@e180068048.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 11:03:43 iion_tichy [n=Bjoern@e179076182.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 11:15:49 kuribas [i=kristof@d54C2ACB6.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 11:30:32 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-2-192.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:57:46 -!- yagur [n=yyaaa@211.109.158.113] has quit ["  ."] 12:03:59 is there a function that will read a file's contents into a string or shall I write my own? 12:10:43 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-4-215.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 12:11:31 sili: is this in PLT? 12:12:23 chicken 12:12:37 Well, ignore me then. 12:13:23 sili: read-all 12:13:59 fantacular 12:14:55 jgracin_ [n=jgracin@93-138-9-119.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #scheme 12:15:26 I need to upgrade my chicken 12:15:49 (use utils) 12:16:27 genius. 12:18:02 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-49-163.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 12:19:24 higepon860 [n=taro@FL1-122-130-138-220.tky.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 12:24:10 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 12:28:09 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-38-250.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 12:28:12 -!- tizoc_ is now known as tizoc 12:32:39 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@93-138-73-111.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:40:09 -!- kuribas [i=kristof@d54C2ACB6.access.telenet.be] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 12:52:43 cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has joined #scheme 12:56:36 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 13:35:51 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:38:25 -!- sili [n=sili@222.127.162.227] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:38:31 rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 13:39:45 hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD125054017176.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 13:41:33 sili [n=sili@222.127.162.227] has joined #scheme 13:46:14 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:47:13 sili_ [n=sili@222.127.162.227] has joined #scheme 13:50:06 -!- maskd [i=maskd@unaffiliated/maskd] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:50:18 -!- suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:50:39 suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 13:57:12 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-137-201-148.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:57:23 pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has joined #scheme 13:58:54 -!- underspecified [n=eric@clair16.naist.jp] has quit [] 13:59:52 -!- pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 14:02:11 -!- sili [n=sili@222.127.162.227] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:05:07 hemulen [n=hemulen@cpe-069-134-114-252.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 14:12:46 aaco [n=aaco@unaffiliated/aaco] has joined #scheme 14:15:52 ejs [n=eugen@153-207-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 14:18:28 -!- suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:18:45 suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 14:21:13 ski__ [n=md9slj@remote3.student.chalmers.se] has joined #scheme 14:21:35 -!- suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:21:52 suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 14:36:45 -!- ejs [n=eugen@153-207-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:37:33 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #scheme 14:47:26 name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #scheme 14:48:59 underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052011.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 14:51:04 hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #scheme 15:04:07 aaronwl [n=aaronwl@aaronwl.com] has joined #scheme 15:04:54 hi. in MIT scheme, when i get an error about an unbound variable or non-applicable object, (and it asks me to restart etc) is there some way to get scheme to tell me _where_ the error was? 15:07:57 npe [n=npe@66.112.249.148] has joined #scheme 15:08:45 aaronwl: tried (debug) already? 15:08:58 no, thanks.. let me try 15:09:39 info mit-scheme-user 15:17:20 -!- suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:17:39 -!- schmalbe [n=bernhard@p549A3A27.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:19:32 Hear, hear! (Feeley on the PLT list) 15:19:58 suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 15:20:03 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 15:20:47 ...saying what? 15:20:48 -!- suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:21:08 suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 15:21:19 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-103-31.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:21:21 "The diversity of Scheme implementations should be viewed as one of the strengths of Scheme, not a weakness." 15:21:51 It should *be* a strength before one can reasonably view it as such. 15:22:40 It *is* a strength. 15:23:36 But more importantly, I get really tired of the PLT camp trying to tell everyone to just use PLT and forget the other implementations, or at best trying to force the other implementations to turn into PLT. 15:24:49 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@68.237.103.31] has joined #scheme 15:26:17 GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-235-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:26:35 -!- GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-235-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has left #scheme 15:26:50 *eli* sighs 15:27:10 *foof* is especially looking at you, eli :P 15:27:32 Where did "the PLT camp [...] tell everyone to just use PLT and forget the other implementations"? 15:27:49 And where did it "try to force the other implementations to turn into PLT"? 15:28:20 jlongster [n=user@75.148.111.133] has joined #scheme 15:28:20 No, it's not a strength. Without agreement even on how programs can be organized locally, let alone on how libraries can cooperate, it is no small task to write useful programs that run on multiple Scheme systems. (This is different from writing programs portably, which is not so hard, although different Scheme systems ease or harden the development of portable programs.) 15:28:20 Where your response to me saying it was great that PLT switched to immutable pairs was to say "seems like your pains would be gone if all implementations would switch to immutable pairs." 15:29:27 [BTW, I was once idealistic, and I now think very much like Riastradh.] 15:29:57 foof: Yes, I said that -- did that mean that I tried to force you to forget the rest or to make the rest be plt in any way? 15:30:01 Riastradh: We can have diversity and still be able to share code (in theory). 15:30:13 Yes, foof, in theory. 15:30:48 That was merely stating a fact -- that immutable pairs *are* a hard problem, that we don't have a good automatic solution for it, and that *if* all schemes turn to immutable pairs then your problems would be solved. 15:30:55 *foof* has to give a presentation in 12 hours and really shouldn't be arguing 15:31:07 I didn't intend to say more than that -- certainly nothing close to the above two sweeping declarations. 15:31:19 eli: It's the attitude that rubs me the wrong way. Just suggesting it. 15:31:53 I absolutely agree that we could have much better diversity without what I consider to be unreasonable burdens on the implementations. 15:32:07 -!- npe [n=npe@66.112.249.148] has quit [] 15:33:01 What attitude -- it was a *fact*, there cannot be any attitude. If anything, you will remember that I tried to convince you to have an implementation dependent compatibility layer! I did so in a specific attempt to make your life easier, facing a task that (to me) seems close to impossible. Heck, I was even willing to help you with getting such a language set up. 15:33:04 Unfortunately, the R6RS process has demonstrated pretty conclusively to me that we're not prepared to agree on these changes (which I pushed, and which were summarily rejected on grounds that I found absurd; e.g., `the R6RS libraries are a distribution format, not a portable way to organize programs'). 15:33:12 It's like saying affirmative action wouldn't be an issue if we killed all the african americans. 15:34:02 All of that was an attempt to respect your goal of working with other implementations. If I had the attitude you attribute to me, my natural response would be "suit yourself, I'm not going to help". 15:34:33 -!- higepon860 [n=taro@FL1-122-130-138-220.tky.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:34:35 wastrel [n=wastrel@nylug/member/wastrel] has joined #scheme 15:34:53 eli, what foof wants is to provide his library with first-class status in PLT Scheme, so that the other first-class citizens (i.e. those who use the default language one gets at the REPL) can invoke it without trouble. He sees the R5RS support in PLT as second-class, the mutability of pairs here being the rub. 15:34:58 hitler, hitler, hitler. flame war closed. 15:35:54 (I hope I didn't just open the door for the phrase `separate but equal'...! *cough*) 15:36:00 -!- fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-084-059-133-037.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:36:35 *Riastradh* vanishes. 15:36:54 Riastradh: Yes, and that's what I was willing to help with -- setting up a plt-specific environment that will make it possible for his code to work in plt as well as in other implementations. Being the single implementation with immutable pairs, I thought it is the right thing to try to help in sorting that out. 15:38:28 -!- jgracin_ [n=jgracin@93-138-9-119.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:46:25 gaja [n=Gabriel@c-2791e355.017-40-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 15:46:57 -!- gaja [n=Gabriel@c-2791e355.017-40-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Client Quit] 15:48:54 gaja [n=Gabriel@c-2791e355.017-40-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 15:49:58 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:57:05 vasa [n=vasa@mm-25-90-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #scheme 15:57:47 langmartin [n=user@75.148.111.133] has joined #scheme 16:02:36 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 16:04:32 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["away"] 16:09:01 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 16:09:16 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:09:49 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 16:14:19 npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has joined #scheme 16:15:42 replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 16:16:06 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:22:39 jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless179.wireless.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 16:26:23 -!- hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:26:26 pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has joined #scheme 16:27:55 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@68.237.103.31] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:28:00 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-103-31.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 16:32:10 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [No route to host] 16:35:15 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:36:55 -!- incubot [n=incubot@24.205.65.135] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:37:41 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-25-90-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 16:41:23 saccade [n=saccade_@COMBINATOR.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 16:41:44 incubot [n=incubot@24.205.65.135] has joined #scheme 16:46:02 saccade_ [n=saccade@18.188.68.12] has joined #scheme 16:48:52 can anyone give me a pointer to that super-short (but presumably slow) quicksort function in scheme? 16:49:00 ive seen it a million times, but i cant find it now. 16:51:26 annodomini [n=lambda@130.189.179.215] has joined #scheme 16:55:06 Kerris4 [n=Kerris4@87-194-3-170.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 16:55:19 my copy of Simple Scheme arrived today :> 16:55:27 *Kerris4* adds #scheme to autojoin 17:01:04 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #scheme 17:03:00 aaronwl, you can find one in here: . 17:03:28 aaronwl, or did you mean the concise tree^Wquick-sort on lists which one will find, for example, in the Wikipedia article on quick-sort implementations in various languages? 17:10:03 hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #scheme 17:11:42 -!- kniu [n=kniu@LEMON.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:15:02 exexex [n=chatzill@85.97.136.163] has joined #scheme 17:17:14 -!- exexex [n=chatzill@85.97.136.163] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:20:58 -!- hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has quit ["leaving"] 17:21:43 mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 17:24:47 kniu [n=kniu@CMU-301252.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 17:25:42 Riastradh, i meant the latter, "quick sort" 17:25:55 i mean, fake quick sort, or whatever it is. 17:27:31 The Haskell crowd prefer to call it `deforested tree sort', a delightful pun. 17:27:41 actually let me check wikipedia, now that you mention it. 17:27:55 A delightful double-entendre, too. 17:27:56 hehe :) 17:28:08 You /have/ tried "scheme quicksort" and "scheme qsort" in Google, haven't you? 17:28:47 yes.. i just cant find the tiny 'deforested' one. 17:29:05 Sorry, that page must have migrated since I last looked from Wikipedia to Wikibooks. 17:29:24 the hit at blogs.sun.com is the one you want, I think. 17:29:27 Follow the link on the Wikipedia article `Quicksort' to the Wikibook article on implementations of the algorithm. 17:32:08 thats it! thanks for the directions. 17:32:11 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B057B84.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:32:22 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B057B84.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 17:32:22 -!- pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:38:40 pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has joined #scheme 17:38:54 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@3ad50e34.broker.freenet6.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:42:07 -!- pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:44:51 pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has joined #scheme 17:45:57 -!- pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:47:32 gigabytes [n=gigabyte@host162-239-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 18:02:47 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless179.wireless.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:03:08 jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless179.wireless.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 18:07:01 -!- gigabytes [n=gigabyte@host162-239-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [] 18:07:09 schmalbe [n=bernhard@p549A0422.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 18:09:57 fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-084-059-133-037.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 18:11:21 sonderma` [n=user@142-210-dsl.kielnet.net] has joined #scheme 18:15:48 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:17:37 -!- underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052011.bbtec.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:17:45 underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052011.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 18:18:48 -!- underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052011.bbtec.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:19:06 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 18:20:17 -!- sondermann [n=user@35-240-dsl.kielnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:21:16 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@18.188.68.12] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:21:33 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless179.wireless.utah.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:21:34 jon_ [n=jon@wireless179.wireless.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 18:21:55 -!- jon_ [n=jon@wireless179.wireless.utah.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:22:05 jon__ [n=jon@wireless179.wireless.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 18:22:47 -!- jon__ [n=jon@wireless179.wireless.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:22:55 jon_ [n=jon@wireless179.wireless.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 18:23:09 -!- jon_ is now known as jonrafkind 18:29:45 melito [n=melito@70.99.250.82] has joined #scheme 18:30:34 -!- fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-084-059-133-037.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:31:29 saccade_ [n=saccade@30-7-212.wireless.csail.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 18:38:10 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #scheme 18:40:25 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Client Quit] 18:41:36 saccade__ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-111-29-175.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 18:43:12 -!- incubot [n=incubot@24.205.65.135] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:44:43 hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #scheme 18:46:03 incubot [n=incubot@24.205.65.135] has joined #scheme 18:52:12 MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has joined #scheme 18:52:48 NaNO2x [n=NaNO2x@vergil21.u.washington.edu] has joined #scheme 18:53:46 is there a way to read in a whole file to a string and then parse the string char by character including non letter symbols? 18:54:27 streams? 18:54:42 but that doesn't read the whole file at once (why is this a requirement?) 18:54:58 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@30-7-212.wireless.csail.mit.edu] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:55:30 it's not 18:55:36 i just need to read the file bit by bit 18:55:56 Is the issue the "string"? Try generating your string, then creating a string port off of it. 18:56:13 *Daemmerung* has no idea why he put quotation marks around "string" 18:56:18 well what i'm doing is building a scanner 18:56:28 that takes in code, parses it and returns tokens 18:57:56 "Takes in code"? 18:58:20 You have a file of text? And you want to generate a stream of tokens from that file of text? 18:58:29 yeah 18:58:34 Where the tokens are made per some lexical specification? 18:59:09 yes 18:59:13 In other words, implementing the Scheme `read', only for some language spec other than Scheme? 18:59:21 yeap 18:59:37 Seems pretty straightforward. What's your problem? 18:59:58 well first of all i came to the wrong channel, i have too many languages mixed up in my head ;) 19:00:06 Heh. 19:00:15 did you mean to be in #haskell? 19:00:17 scheme was two weeks ago 19:00:22 ruby actually 19:00:26 Euw. 19:00:28 two weeks of scheme and you are a mastery? 19:00:31 ruby yech >_< 19:00:50 This is the way of schoolwork, merlincorey. 19:00:52 not a master at all 19:00:59 Daemmerung: ach so 19:01:07 it's quite a head popping way of doing things 19:01:12 but what does a two week tour of various languages really give you, except for diziness? 19:01:28 He didn't say it was a two week tour. He said he was working in Scheme 2w ago. 19:01:34 yeah 19:01:38 it's about a month per 19:01:43 Yeah yeah let me live in my assumptions :P 19:02:05 NaNO2x: well, I for one can't help you with ruby. It's a religious requirement ;) 19:02:07 which gives you enough understanding to pick up why the languages are different and apparently implement a language in the language which is really the mind twister 19:02:26 NaNO2x: you should tell them you want to go through EoPL 19:02:40 or even TAPL if you are really bold 19:02:45 Can't help you with ruby, but I'm sure folks in That Other channel can. Good luck w/ it. 19:02:51 yeah thanks 19:02:58 a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has joined #scheme 19:03:02 great part is i really wanted to do iteration while using scheme 19:03:09 but now i want to do recursion in ruby 19:03:53 That just brightened my day. I was on the verge of blurting out the cynical `These survey courses give students just enough time to learn to hate the languages without enough time to understand them.' 19:05:51 In my day we did half the class in APL, half the class in Lisp. It did not engender a love of either language in most of the victims. 19:06:31 i started on c and still try to do everything in c 19:06:36 who needs objects 19:07:42 -!- kniu [n=kniu@CMU-301252.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:10:47 gigabytes [n=gigabyte@host162-239-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 19:12:49 -!- Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-68-228-157.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:13:33 ah well, perhaps i'll be back to the land of recursion or mistakingly looking for ruby help who knows 19:19:40 -!- hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has quit ["leaving"] 19:21:53 hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #scheme 19:23:20 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-32-128.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 19:27:36 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-4-215.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:28:05 -!- saccade__ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-111-29-175.dyn.mit.edu] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:30:13 yagur [n=yyaaa@211.109.158.113] has joined #scheme 19:34:01 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-49-163.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 19:34:03 -!- tizoc_ is now known as tizoc 19:38:25 NaNO2x: I can write a very clean object system in C prety well, for when I need them in it ;) 19:39:04 but when do you need them?!? 19:39:32 that you learn through experience, and some of it is just preference 19:39:41 It's a useful way to structure a large C program or a library. 19:39:43 we could write everything completely imperitively in assembly if we wanted 19:40:06 therefore we don't NEED any of these trappings like objects and closures - they just make our lives a lot easier to manage :) 19:40:11 merlincorey, yes i've one quite a bit of asm work :P 19:40:37 i just haven't grasped the time that objects save yet 19:41:01 they help manage complexity, which can save time in maintainence, where it is most needed 19:41:10 saccade_ [n=saccade@18.188.68.12] has joined #scheme 19:41:13 actually writing code never takes THAT long, it is the maintainence that takes forever and is a bitch 19:41:19 tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has joined #scheme 19:42:28 yeah 19:44:55 acarrico1 [n=acarrico@pppoe-68-142-37-185.gmavt.net] has joined #scheme 19:46:02 this is why it is worth spending MORE time to do proper design before writing code and making the Right abstractions 19:46:23 it may take longer than just hacking out the code however, but it is going to be much more coherent when you or someone else looks at it six months after writing it 19:47:04 the fact that writing code doesn't take very long is why often times with horrible crufty/old code it is easier to simply rewrite it from scratch 19:48:00 yeah 19:48:03 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 19:48:06 or you have job security 19:48:08 -!- gigabytes [n=gigabyte@host162-239-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [] 19:50:51 -!- acarrico [n=acarrico@pppoe-68-142-59-163.gmavt.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:52:29 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless179.wireless.utah.edu] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:57:13 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 20:00:47 -!- NaNO2x [n=NaNO2x@vergil21.u.washington.edu] has left #scheme 20:02:59 saccade__ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-68-12.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 20:03:27 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@18.188.68.12] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:04:31 GoNoGo [n=GoNoGo@cro34-3-82-236-93-215.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 20:04:41 -!- ventonegro [n=user@136.166.1.3] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:06:59 sili [n=sili@121.96.161.145] has joined #scheme 20:09:56 -!- sili_ [n=sili@222.127.162.227] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 20:15:39 kniu [n=kniu@LEMON.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 20:15:54 Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-68-228-157.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #scheme 20:17:59 -!- hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 20:18:26 -!- Adrinael [i=adrinael@rid7.kyla.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:20:04 Adrinael [i=adrinael@rid7.kyla.fi] has joined #scheme 20:22:36 ineiros_ [n=ineiros@kosh.hut.fi] has joined #scheme 20:23:04 -!- ineiros [n=ineiros@kosh.hut.fi] has quit [Success] 20:36:49 merlincorey: i agree, write once, write correct 20:37:22 i dont write code unless i can clearly see it (or whatever it does) in my mind 20:37:45 i type slow too :p 20:37:52 and i am lzy 20:37:58 lazy rather :) 20:38:47 jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless179.wireless.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 20:40:42 gigabytes [n=gigabyte@host114-237-dynamic.4-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 20:43:49 -!- GoNoGo [n=GoNoGo@cro34-3-82-236-93-215.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920]"] 20:47:39 -!- schmalbe [n=bernhard@p549A0422.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:47:54 schmalbe [n=bernhard@p549A0422.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 20:51:51 mike [n=mike@dslb-088-064-159-211.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 20:52:18 -!- mike is now known as Guest2632 20:52:27 -!- schmalbe [n=bernhard@p549A0422.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:53:38 -!- sili [n=sili@121.96.161.145] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:02:42 hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #scheme 21:09:54 fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-084-059-133-037.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 21:11:27 hkBst [n=hkBst@70pc222.sshunet.nl] has joined #scheme 21:15:20 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit ["bye"] 21:17:25 -!- iion_tichy [n=Bjoern@e179076182.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:21:29 -!- hemulen is now known as hemulen_afk 21:24:45 orgy` [n=ratm_@pD9FFE95C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 21:29:50 i have a list of proper lists representing an environment of singleton variables, so ((a 1) (b 2) (c 3)), i need a function that returns an updated environment with the new singleton either added or appended 21:29:59 i have the replace down, just not the append 21:31:40 (define (env-update env var) (map (lambda (x) (if (eql? (car x) (car var)) var x)) env) ) 21:31:48 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [] 21:31:53 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 21:32:10 also apply append i guess 21:32:13 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Client Quit] 21:32:37 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 21:33:46 (cons (if (eql? (car x) (car var)) var x) (cdr x)) 21:35:08 is var a pair? 21:35:12 yes 21:35:39 -!- hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has quit ["leaving"] 21:35:39 and that needs to be added or updated? 21:35:49 if it's not in there 21:35:51 ie can't be updated 21:35:53 it's appended 21:35:55 ok 21:36:14 so ((a 1) (b 2) (c 3)) (b 4) becomes ((a 1) (b 4) (c 3)) 21:36:26 but ((a 1) (b 2) (c 3)) (d 4) becomes ((a 1) (b 2) (c 3) (d 4)) 21:36:30 with proper quotes 21:36:50 hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #scheme 21:36:56 you want to mutate or not mutate the env? 21:37:03 not-mutate 21:37:17 it returns a new env which i can set! in higher functions 21:37:21 damn :) there goes the easy answer :) 21:37:40 no problem, just make a copy 21:37:40 -!- hemulen_afk is now known as hemulen 21:37:54 i'm just unsure of the loop structure 21:38:33 if var starts with d and it iterates through the list and doesn't find it, it won't append it 21:38:58 well i guess i can use member? too 21:39:21 probably assp 21:39:35 or assq 21:39:37 the scoping is a real problem 21:39:50 you deal with syntax? 21:39:51 -!- aaronwl [n=aaronwl@aaronwl.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:39:59 oh wait i'm stupid 21:40:00 oh yes, duh :) 21:40:17 if it's a member then do the map if not do the append 21:40:36 not member, assq 21:41:09 (define (env-update env var) (if (member? var env) (map (lambda (x) (if (eql? (car x) (car var)) var x)) env)) (append var env))) 21:41:11 or whatever it is 21:41:13 (assq var env) 21:41:39 yeh 21:41:48 assoc and friends os used for lists of lists 21:41:51 i'll get to semantics of functions later 21:41:55 os = is 21:41:59 but as long as i get the scoping down 21:41:59 :) 21:43:08 assq works on proper lists right 21:43:15 they're not (a . 2) 21:43:38 they should work on proper lists 21:43:51 im not aware of any restrictions 21:44:42 lelf [n=lelf@217.118.90.251] has joined #scheme 21:52:21 > (assoc `(a 1) `((a 1) (b 2))) 21:52:22 #f 21:52:50 (assq 'a '((a 1) (b 2))) 21:52:52 #t 21:52:59 not! 21:53:05 (a 1) 21:53:08 :) 21:53:20 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:53:23 k 21:54:01 really they're in form (name (type val)) 21:54:05 but i have functions to break that down 21:56:40 -!- lelf [n=lelf@217.118.90.251] has quit ["used jmIrc"] 21:57:47 > (env-update `((b (NUM 3)) (a (LIST 5))) `(a (LIST 2))) 21:57:47 ((b (NUM 3)) (a (LIST 2))) 21:57:47 > (env-update `() `(a (LIST 2))) 21:57:47 (a (LIST 2)) 21:57:54 ohohoho 22:03:57 rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #scheme 22:10:45 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [] 22:15:47 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [] 22:18:06 kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 22:18:12 -!- kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Nick collision] 22:18:14 kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 22:18:18 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 22:18:26 kib2_ [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 22:18:26 -!- kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:19:37 -!- Guest2632 [n=mike@dslb-088-064-159-211.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:21:28 -!- incubot [n=incubot@24.205.65.135] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:25:28 -!- hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:26:33 incubot [n=incubot@24.205.65.135] has joined #scheme 22:31:07 geckosenator [n=sean@c-24-8-193-190.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:35:55 indraastra [n=indraast@nat08.sjc1.metaweb.com] has joined #scheme 22:42:13 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:46:04 -!- indraastra [n=indraast@nat08.sjc1.metaweb.com] has left #scheme 22:49:22 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 22:49:29 -!- gigabytes [n=gigabyte@host114-237-dynamic.4-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [] 22:50:26 exexex [n=chatzill@85.97.136.163] has joined #scheme 22:51:55 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 22:53:29 hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #scheme 22:56:08 rtra_ [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #scheme 22:57:15 Eekdacat: (define (env-update env new-binding) (cons new-binding env)) ? 22:57:55 Eekdacat: (assoc 'a (env-update '() '(a (LIST 2)))) = (a (LIST 2)) 22:58:25 -!- sonderma` is now known as sondermann 22:58:30 -!- saccade__ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-68-12.dyn.mit.edu] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:01:22 hotblack231 [n=jh@p5B057B84.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 23:01:22 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B057B84.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:01:47 -!- rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 23:04:30 -!- hotblack231 [n=jh@p5B057B84.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:05:36 drdo [n=psykon@77.54.111.167] has joined #scheme 23:10:26 -!- exexex [n=chatzill@85.97.136.163] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:11:41 -!- hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:12:07 -!- rtra_ is now known as rtra 23:14:48 maskd [i=maskd@unaffiliated/maskd] has joined #scheme 23:15:20 -!- hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD125054017176.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit ["|_ e /\ \/ i |/| G"] 23:18:01 hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #scheme 23:20:10 -!- orgy` [n=ratm_@pD9FFE95C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Gone."] 23:22:52 -!- kib2_ [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 23:22:59 anyone know of a good example/tutorial on using scheme for generating interactive visualizations? 23:23:07 (static visualizations is okay too, I guess, but interactive preferred) 23:24:15 What kind of visualizations are you looking for? There's a lot of stuff in the PLT distribution. 23:24:33 stuff along the lines of paper submitted to infovis 23:24:38 or stuff along the liens of edward tufte's work 23:25:28 I don't know anything about the former, but I think the latter is less about the tools and more about what you do with them. 23:27:31 renke [n=renke@Le064.l.pppool.de] has joined #scheme 23:27:36 -!- renke [n=renke@Le064.l.pppool.de] has quit [Client Quit] 23:30:50 renke [n=renke@89.48.224.100] has joined #scheme 23:30:50 -!- renke [n=renke@89.48.224.100] has quit [Client Quit] 23:31:05 renke [n=renke@Le064.l.pppool.de] has joined #scheme 23:34:18 raikov [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has joined #scheme 23:35:30 -!- ttmrichter [n=ttmricht@59.172.140.194] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 23:35:46 -!- renke [n=renke@Le064.l.pppool.de] has quit [Client Quit] 23:38:15 ventonegro [n=user@189-95-135-167.3g.claro.net.br] has joined #scheme 23:39:15 ttmrichter [n=ttmricht@59.172.140.194] has joined #scheme 23:39:22 -!- hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:42:40 -!- ventonegro [n=user@189-95-135-167.3g.claro.net.br] has quit [Client Quit] 23:56:17 -!- langmartin [n=user@75.148.111.133] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]