00:00:23 borism [n=boris@195-50-199-187-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 00:01:16 *synx* rimshots 00:02:19 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:02:38 indraastra [n=indraast@nat08.sjc1.metaweb.com] has joined #scheme 00:04:17 -!- seth [n=seth@76-191-139-155.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:05:59 -!- xz [n=ramana@c-98-228-42-177.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 00:06:53 so who does incubot belong to? 00:07:01 incubot: who is your creator? 00:07:03 No, Dekorte (the creator) just made one. There's only one, so it's consistent with all of Io's module systems 00:07:41 incubot: info 00:07:43 Is the info in wikipedia public domain? You could build a dictionary connecting the links in different languages. 00:07:47 heh 00:08:05 well he's pretty good at the markov bit 00:08:10 klutometis made incubot. 00:08:31 Ah 00:10:11 Ohh, a chicken bot eh 00:10:58 mbishop: i was frustrated using a plt-bot; so i whipped up a chicken corollary 00:11:44 where's the source? 00:11:55 please tell me you didn't use that IRC egg :P 00:12:15 git://incubot.org 00:13:08 it's a little rough; i did use that egg, unfortunately, but haven't yet found out how to increase the read-timeout on its input ports 00:14:26 so maybe i'll take an afternoon and just implement the damn protocoll 00:14:38 s/ll/l/ 00:23:16 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-36-44.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 00:24:32 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:26:44 -!- fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-084-059-136-214.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:27:14 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 00:31:49 gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has joined #scheme 00:34:30 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-17-121.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:38:37 In (define (scale-list items factor) (map (lambda (x) (* x factor)) items) how does scalte-list know what to put for x? 00:40:29 ? 00:41:35 did you mutate? 00:42:04 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:42:18 -!- kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 00:42:48 ? 00:43:01 JohnnyL: scale-list doesn't know anything about x 00:43:08 merlincorey ok 00:44:42 JohnnyL: scale-list only knows about the map form you are doing. To scale list it sees "map with scaling procedure these items" and doesn't care what that procedure actually is 00:45:13 You happen to be defining it as an anonymous function inline, but you could use any other function like "square" for example 00:45:36 so the function that is being applied to the list is the only thing that cares about its argument (in your case, x) 00:48:01 Map simply iterates across the list, applyingthe current item to the given function, and storing the results in a new list 00:57:50 -!- npe [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:59:59 merlincorey you stil haven't answered my question. 01:05:46 cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-232-219-241.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:07:17 merlincorey never mind i figured it out. 01:07:43 the continuation of 'items' gets passed into the lambda. 01:08:28 xz [n=ramana@c-98-228-42-177.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:16:19 Cale [n=Cale@CPE001c10c70239-CM000e5cdd834a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 01:24:56 -!- tizoc_ is now known as tizoc 01:25:02 merlincorey what you say isn't wrong though! :) 01:27:16 proqesi [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #scheme 01:32:22 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:33:23 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:34:46 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-251-241-233.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 01:35:03 -!- hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-251-241-233.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:35:58 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-232-219-241.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:42:45 `The continuation of ``items'' gets passed into the lambda'? 01:43:52 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:48:47 vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has joined #scheme 01:49:29 -!- tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has quit [] 01:51:51 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:58:20 proqesi` [n=user@64.122.40.197] has joined #scheme 02:03:18 -!- gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has left #scheme 02:07:01 -!- proqesi [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:17:17 -!- a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 02:18:03 a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has joined #scheme 02:21:41 -!- melito [n=melito@70.99.250.82] has quit ["Leaving..."] 02:21:46 -!- kniu [n=kniu@CMU-301252.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:21:53 kniu [n=kniu@CMU-301252.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 02:25:29 npe [i=npe@66.112.249.175] has joined #scheme 02:26:26 Riastradh yes, what's wrong with what i just said? 02:26:40 It doesn't make any sense. 02:27:32 `Items' is not an entity that has a continuation; nor is what is passed as the argument to the procedure created by the lambda expression at all related to a continuation. 02:31:36 each node is a continuation, no? 02:31:48 `Node'? 02:31:58 atom 02:32:27 Whatever definition you are about to supply of `atom', I am reasonably certain that it will not remotely equate with `continuation'. 02:32:33 So: What do you mean by `atom'? 02:32:44 in (* 3 (+ 2 X)) the resule of (+2 X) is a continuation of *3. 02:33:01 resule=result 02:33:43 No: the result of (+ 2 X) is *passed*to* the continuation of the evaluation of that expression. That continuation will proceed to evaluate (* 3 ), where is the value passed to it, and pass on whatever (* 3 ) returns, to the next continuation. 02:35:01 yes, and in my example items is *passed*to* the continuation of the evaluation of the map function. 02:35:32 `Evaluation' is something of expressions, not of procedures. 02:35:41 `Evaluation of the MAP procedure' doesn't make sense. 02:35:51 One can apply procedures, but one evaluates* expressions. 02:35:58 yes or no? 02:35:59 `Evaluates', even. (No footnote intended!) 02:36:18 In your example, ITEMS is passed as an argument to the MAP procedure. 02:36:31 Elements of ITEMS are passed as the argument to the procedure created by the lambda expression. 02:36:43 i never said procedure once. the map function is an expression , no? 02:36:48 The list of results of applying your procedure to elements of ITEMS is what MAP passes on to the continuation passed to it. 02:37:24 My cat's breath smells like cat food. 02:37:29 A function is a mathematical object not represented directly in Scheme. By abuse of language, some use `function' and `procedure' synonymously, but never is `expression' synonymous with either. 02:38:15 (* 3 4) <-- what's that? 02:38:44 That is an expression. 02:39:03 "Riastradh, The list of results of applying your procedure to elements of ITEMS is what MAP passes on to the continuation passed to it. " -- Thats basically what I said. 02:39:04 The value of the standard variable named MAP is a procedure. 02:39:07 -!- vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has quit ["The incensed priests...continued to raise their voices, vituperating each other in bad Latin"] 02:39:13 Riastradh , but is it a function as well? 02:39:15 No, it's not remotely what you said. 02:39:25 By abuse of language, some call that value a function. 02:40:05 even an opcode IMUL is a considered a function in assmebler. 02:40:45 how is what you just said not like what I just said?" 02:40:48 No, an opcode is a code, usually a number, which, when interpreted by a machine, denotes an instruction. 02:41:38 `The continuation of ITEMS' makes no sense. What is passed to the procedure (one does not apply lambdas; one applies procedures, which may have been obtained by evaluating lambda expressions) is elements of your list, not continuations involved in evaluating your expression. 02:42:07 Riastradh Your just playing around with defintions at this point. IMULT is a function that accept two operands, returns a result and changes around a few global variables (such as ti register bits). 02:43:06 Our language has distinct words for distinct meanings. Abusing it conflates the meanings; this is sometimes convenient, but no amount of convenient abuse of language leads to a sensible interpretation of what you said earlier. 02:43:08 s/ti/the 02:43:39 hahaha 02:43:45 ROTFLMAO 02:44:06 Plonk. 02:44:38 Please try to be civil, JohnnyL, and to use complete English sentences, rather than overly abbreviated pejorative participial phrases. 02:45:06 Our language has multiple words for vague meanings. 02:46:29 I was toying with the idea of a distributed forum today. 02:46:39 I think the biggest problem is flood control. 02:46:49 Don't really know how to deal with that. 02:46:58 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless358.wireless.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:46:58 Every scheme I think up has some crippling flaw in it. 02:47:00 the lambda gets passed into the map function which retrieves and references the values from the items list. 02:47:04 -!- kniu [n=kniu@CMU-301252.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:47:34 That at least makes some (loose) sense, sure, JohnnyL. 02:49:41 kniu [n=kniu@128.2.148.29] has joined #scheme 02:50:11 grettke [n=grettke@CPE-65-31-132-59.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:52:54 -!- grettke [n=grettke@CPE-65-31-132-59.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [] 03:02:29 -!- proqesi` [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:03:54 acarrico [n=acarrico@pppoe-68-142-59-163.gmavt.net] has joined #scheme 03:03:58 Alot of the samples i've been reading in Scheme don't appear to be very optimized. I mean recursion is slow and eats up loads of ram. 03:04:16 :O 03:05:38 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:05:43 Gosh, too bad recursive procedures is all you get in Scheme. I mean, clearly it can't possibly avoid slowly eating up loads of RAM, or something. 03:05:43 ...still almost six months to 1 April... no, I don't get it. 03:06:14 JohnnyL, or Mr Torvalds if your whois is any indication, you have a few moments to persuade me that you're not a troll. 03:07:44 *acarrico* looks at his stopwatch. 03:07:50 Riastradh if being a troll means getting down to business and saving cpu cycles in the name of good programming,, well then... 03:08:01 JohnnyL: please get a clue. 03:08:13 You know nothing about Scheme. 03:08:19 JohnnyL, perhaps you could do a little bit of research into Scheme before blathering nonsense about it. For example, you could read the R5RS, a mere fifty pages, undoubtedly shorter than the kernel `you' wrote: 03:08:27 03:09:44 a1len_ [n=James@cpe-76-174-234-139.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:09:45 I'm currently reading Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs 03:10:00 -!- kniu [n=kniu@128.2.148.29] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:10:18 So you should shortly come across a sensible discussion of recursion. 03:10:46 Riastradh may be in a few hundred pages. 03:11:28 Does anyone recomend the PLT Graphics Toolkit? 03:11:42 Well, all I have in front of me is the first edition, but this discussion begins on the twenty-ninth page here. 03:12:36 acarrico: for what purpose? It beats trying to draw Snoopy with lineprinter output, sure. 03:13:18 It's rather least-common-denominator, as such toolkits tend to be. 03:13:33 So if you have expectations based on one particular platform, you may find yourself frustrated. 03:13:52 Daemmerung: I just want to prototype a little bit, so that isn't an issue. 03:14:11 what do you want to make prototypes of? 03:14:15 Riastradh there are no pages in the HTML version. 03:14:17 acarrico: should be great for that. What platform? 03:15:17 I'm not to familiar with PLT, but looking at the table of contents of the docs, it seems like a reasonable place to start. I just wanted to throw it out in case someone had strong opinions, or another recommendation. 03:15:21 Debian. 03:15:48 /s/to/too 03:16:24 X is probably the weakest of its platforms, just because X is so dependent on which toolkit you're using. PLT uses an old fork of wxWindows. 03:16:54 But it nevertheless does the job. If you're satisfied with the look of DrScheme on X, you should be satisfied with PLT thereon. 03:18:00 (On the Mac and Windows, PLT inherits more behavior from the hosting OS.) 03:18:05 synx: I was thinking of maybe some tree or graph editing; again, mostly just to play with. I'm from scsh/scheme48 and haven't really done gui in scheme before. 03:18:52 graph...editing? You mean drawing graphs? 03:18:57 Daemmerung: I see, thanks. 03:19:36 linus makes 10 million lines of bloat. 03:19:43 vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has joined #scheme 03:19:43 Plonk. 03:19:44 synx: I guess, like type into a node, and then into child nodes. Not really for a practical application. 03:19:55 hey genome 03:20:06 Just a warm up excercise. 03:21:10 You'd have to set up a keyboard handler there I guess, and make some form of cursor or pointer as to which node you were on. Probably have to balance the length of whatever text blurb you put in a node. 03:21:42 Right. So PLT can handle that with reasonable grace? 03:22:23 The table of contents mentions an "editor toolbox" that sounds like it might be good for that sort of thing. 03:22:26 Sure if you want to program all that. 03:22:56 jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:23:23 -!- cpfr [n=cf@dynamic-131-080.usc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:23:34 PLT's GUI toolkit can draw lines, and let you handle keyboard events. I don't know what it would do in terms of non-standard widget packing styles like putting them in a graph pattern. Usually people just pack stuff side by side square. 03:24:16 I doubt that each node would be its own widget.... 03:24:36 (though it would certainly simplify hit testing) 03:25:25 Well, ok since you pry... from time-to-time (at a glacial pace) I've been playing with the multi syntax (in an interpreter). IIRC, last time I paged in this experiment, I was thinking of trying a tree based editor for that (the syntax) to see if it is less cumbersome. 03:27:00 i fed the troll and failed. By JohnnyL. 03:28:03 cpfr [n=cf@cpe-76-171-165-212.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:29:10 -!- a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:32:12 pkill -KILL -f rdesktop 03:33:10 It is funny, for all the PLT hype about continuations based browsers, and FRP, and all that, this GUI library first page of docs jumps into callbacks. 03:33:25 err not browsers, but web programming. 03:35:31 I vaguely recall an old paper about using the continuation paradigm for GUI callbacks. The problem, I think, is the sheer expense of such an approach. 03:36:04 FRP might work, it seems to work in flapjax. 03:37:00 Actually maybe frtime has a gui. 03:38:22 saccade_ [n=saccade@209.6.23.56] has joined #scheme 03:38:50 acarrico: I don't know how you get to lump "continuations based browsers", "FRP", and "all that" -- but the plt web server *is* based on continuations. 03:39:02 arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-186-237-83.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 03:39:19 FrTime does have a gui library, but it still has a high overhead -- to high to be used in real code. 03:39:43 Daemmerung: Continuations don't have to be expensive, and at the user interaction level you don't need speed anyway. 03:39:51 eli: thanks for the info. Reading about callbacks just brought the alternatives to mind. 03:40:45 my mind must be in free association mode tonight. 03:40:59 foof: there is expensive, and there is expensive. For much user interaction it isn't a problem. For some user interaction - the case where a user action generates hundreds of callbacks - it is. 03:41:19 And I shouldn't use the word "hype", that stuff is good work. 03:41:35 Don't believe the hype. 03:42:15 acarrico: Yes, especially the FrTime stuff -- I'd love to see that get to a point where it's in common use, but I'm not sure if we'll get there. 03:43:35 I saw the FrTime demo at the scheme workshop in boston, and kind of forgot about it, but recently I played with Flapjax and was very impressed. 03:44:16 You know that Flapjax is the successor of frtime, sort of, right? 03:44:25 I figured, ya. 03:44:35 -!- a1len_ is now known as a1len 03:44:43 But hopefully parallel rather than successor? 03:45:27 acarrico: Well, Greg is still actively maintaining FrTime, but I don't know if he'll get new work done. 03:45:33 ugh, javascript 03:45:40 arcfide_ [n=arcfide@adsl-99-137-200-152.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 03:45:57 Double-ugh. (Or ugh-ugh, if you prefer.) 03:46:07 Don't misunderestimate javascript. 03:46:11 I really don't know much about FrTime, but my impression is that it is more like the non-library use of Flapjax. I wonder about a library style FrTime if you follow my analogy. 03:46:44 In other words, not auto-lifted functions. 03:46:56 I think that it does exist, but I never had a deep look. 03:47:09 haha 03:47:14 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-186-237-83.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:47:14 Is misunderestimate even a word? 03:47:19 I do have an idea that might lead to something similar, through lazy scheme in a weird way. 03:47:28 -!- arcfide_ is now known as arcfide 03:47:28 nice neologism 03:47:32 synx: Sure it is. Ask any american president. 03:47:55 Or at least s/any/some/ 03:48:00 anyway javascript sucks, because when you require your clients to trust you that much, they end up vulnerable to other malicious sites. 03:48:22 when you require that much complexity in the client, it requires lots of effort to program browsers, wasted effort IMO 03:48:26 Anyway, just a little playing with Flapjax (and I'm sure FrTime, but I haven't) is enough to demonstrate that there is a powerful technology waiting. I think it could be very productive for programmers vs. the status quo. 03:49:07 eli: feel free to elaborate. 03:49:11 clients should fit their function, and so should protocols. Instead people try to hammer everything into some modded hack of Netscape. 03:49:15 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@60-56-118-48.eonet.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 03:49:16 on your idea. 03:49:43 (time (begin (map (lambda (n) (call/cc (lambda (k) (list k n)))) (iota 100)))) 03:49:49 0.001 seconds elapsed 03:50:02 bitch bitch bitch 03:50:05 synx: yes the webbrowser platform sucks, but still, go through the Flapjax demo. 03:50:13 synx: All of that is pretty much bogus. 03:50:51 If anything, javascript is an excellent demonstration where a scripting language is getting used in an extremely productive way. 03:51:07 eli: Well, rapidshare can track me no matter whether I log in or not. I see that as invasive. 03:51:18 people trading freedom for convenience 03:51:25 Sure it comes with the usual host of security issues and browser compatibility, but so what -- what's your alternative? 03:51:26 synx: then turn it off. Your call. 03:51:26 that's what javascript does 03:51:47 Too late to bitch about javascript. Barn door's open, horse is gone. 03:51:51 synx: "trading freedom for convenience" is cheap demagogy. 03:52:13 Daemmerung: Yeah, and then everyone's work here will go to waste, great idea! 03:52:23 synx: You don't want the trade -- disable javascript; don't use cell phones; no credit cards; and don't forget to stash your cash under the bed! 03:52:26 I'd rather convince people to program sensibly in the first place. 03:52:28 *Daemmerung* yawns 03:52:37 They're all *your* options, of course. 03:53:10 cell phones are fine, though I think they aren't very secure, relying on obfuscation to protect their network. 03:53:12 The guvmint done florida-ated mah water. 03:53:22 credit cards are great, but I object to other people using credit cards who then expect me to pay for it. 03:53:33 acarrico: Well, in some sense a reactive programming world is extremely similar to a lazy world -- you have "promises" in both sides. It makes sense to be able to hit the two birds with one stone, roughly. 03:54:26 and tap water in the USA is like pennies a gallon, and cleaner than bottled water, so anyone who drinks bottled water is a fool n.n 03:54:34 fluoride my ass 03:56:23 synx: The bottom line is that javascript is an enabling technology -- for better or for worse. Blaming social diseases like spyware-like websites on javascript is like blaming computers for a whole bunch of stuff. 03:57:09 And as such, BTW, it's doing a pretty good job -- much more impressive than Java or C#. Scheme can only stand in the corner and cry for yet another lost opportunity. 03:57:14 Well, I'm blaming javascript for requiring crappy bloated browsers, which then enable rotten junk websites. 03:57:20 It's overcomplicated. 03:58:03 Again with the over-generalizations... 03:58:13 Write a scheme browser, and it can use scheme :/ If you want to allow remote execution of code that is. 03:58:19 How is "JS requiring crappy browsers"? 03:59:05 It requires that your browser be overly complex, a very hard to maintain state. You can't be sure that there's no bugs in it. 03:59:28 OK. That's an overdose of nonsense right there. 03:59:50 mozilla is like 200 megabytes of code! 03:59:50 Scheme is also too complex, you know? Nobody *really* needs continuations. 04:00:24 And not to mention Java -- who would be stupid enough to use a garbage collection for real code??? 04:00:50 It's all bloatware. Real Hackers Use Assembly. 04:01:06 well, if someone told you to set it so people could run programs on your computer, I'm sure you could see the problem there. 04:01:24 eli: wrapping an expression to make it lazy, and lifting a function for a behavior (ie making by-value default and these features explicit) works for me, I think. 04:01:51 javascript tries to be safe, by preventing disk access or some junk, but it's still complicated. You're taking an application not suited to HTTP, a stateless protocol, and jury rigging in a bunch of embedded layers on layers of code 04:02:01 wasabi__ [n=wasabi@60-56-118-48.eonet.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 04:02:24 acarrico: Yes, it's pretty obvious that there should be a mode where you'll specify such points explicitly. I definitely think that this would be the more practical use case of both of these. 04:02:32 And the more complicated the code is, the bigger chance that it can be exploited. Heck it might be exploited by design! 04:02:32 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@60-56-118-48.eonet.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:02:41 People trying to prevent you from right clicking and such. 04:04:09 synx: The standards are evolving, and the processes are fairly open, so get involved if you are passionate about it. 04:04:41 what, by programming javascript? :p I'm not really passionate about it... just frustrated really 04:05:35 synx: I'll take one last bite -- gmail and the other google web applications --> bad, right? 04:06:21 uh, yeah 04:06:47 OK then, I'm full so I'll stop biting now. 04:07:32 I mean... gmail does have POP3 and SMTP access, so it's not that dumb. It is dumb to use it as a web page though. 04:08:20 I can ssh in if I need to access my emails and can't go home. 04:08:25 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@209.6.23.56] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 04:10:30 *eli* calls the waiter 04:10:36 check, please! 04:11:19 eli: are you going to eat that? 04:12:22 Daemmerung: no, I didn't even touch it. Feel free. 04:12:30 OM NOM NOM NOM NOM NOM 04:12:38 -!- wasabi__ [n=wasabi@60-56-118-48.eonet.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:12:57 *acarrico* drifts off 04:13:07 thanks all 04:13:11 r u making fun of me 04:13:41 have a great day! 04:13:42 eli: and now a semi-serious question. The PLT SGL samples all work on X, right? 04:14:12 I'm not strong on dynamic linking and X, and have just acquired access to an X system. 04:14:37 The dlopen call seems to expect something like "libname.so.VERSIONNUMBER". 04:14:59 But I notice that, e.g., collect/sgl/gl.ss references it sans VERSIONNUMBER. 04:15:26 Fails on my system. I could have misconfigured something... but elsewhere (by running, say, ldd) 04:15:38 I see links to libname.so with that VERSIONNUMBER. 04:16:11 /ldd/ldd on mred/ 04:16:35 Daemmerung: Yes, I saw your comment re the XO toy. I think it should have the version number. 04:17:03 The .so without the version number is usually there in development packages. 04:17:08 Ah. 04:17:17 I'd change that if I knew anything on GL libraries. 04:17:32 I only minutes ago installed development packages. 04:18:42 ...and voila, there is not a libGL.so where once there was only libGL.so.1.2. 04:18:47 s/not/now 04:18:53 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-182-198.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 04:19:20 Daemmerung: You could have just symlinked it yourself... 04:19:40 I could have. 04:20:01 But I wanted to know what correct procedure might be. 04:20:21 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #scheme 04:20:23 It wasn't out of the question that my local config was bollixed. 04:20:34 s/was/might have been 04:25:53 Daemmerung: The whole thing is sort of like planet, IIUC -- you have a symlink if you truly want to just "use whatever is the newest", but real packages use the version number so they don't break when a new version has a backward incompatible api. 04:26:37 So changing the use point in the sgl code is easy, but needs to be done only if I know that (for example) it should always be compatible with v1. 04:27:34 Given the generic nature of the contents of sgl, that would be difficult to do at the distribution level. 04:28:12 What would be? 04:28:28 Making a statement "Depends on OpenGL 1.4." 04:29:46 Well, by using only `1', the statement is "Depends on OpenGL 1.x"... 04:29:50 -!- indraastra [n=indraast@nat08.sjc1.metaweb.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:30:31 Sure. (Is that what it says now? I didn't think that SGL even qualified its reqs that much.) 04:31:38 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:34:38 Daemmerung: Well, like I said, I'm just second guessing the intention -- you know enough that you won't need to work hard to make me change the code... 04:36:34 I try not to ask for changes that leave everything in worse shape than they were before. Sometimes I fail, but at least I try. So I want to understand this before I ask for a change. 04:36:58 OK... 04:37:17 It should be much easier to get in than the NURBS patch... 04:37:18 (at my left elbow is the XO toy, which has the honor of hosting the only C compiler in the house at the moment. We are learning.) 04:37:28 Oh, yeah, NURBS. What of that? 04:37:44 That will need to wait until 4.1.3 goes out any I get some time to look at applying it... 04:37:51 No fire. 04:38:06 (Planned for next week, btw.) 04:39:51 Dawgmatix [n=deep@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 04:43:37 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:58:37 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@60-56-118-48.eonet.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 05:05:58 -!- vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has quit ["The incensed priests...continued to raise their voices, vituperating each other in bad Latin"] 05:10:13 tjafk2 [n=timj@e176198091.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 05:11:31 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has left #scheme 05:11:54 -!- wastrel [n=wastrel@nylug/member/wastrel] has quit ["bye now"] 05:14:02 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:15:14 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has left #scheme 05:16:03 wasabi__ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 05:16:50 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0478.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:20:38 -!- wasabi__ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:20:51 wasabi__ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 05:21:33 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@60-56-118-48.eonet.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:26:54 -!- tjafk1 [n=timj@e176197228.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:29:43 -!- wasabi__ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:34:47 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 05:43:19 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:43:31 la la la 05:44:13 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 05:44:51 -!- CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-61-150-59.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:48:27 vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has joined #scheme 05:52:24 -!- Dawgmatix [n=deep@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 05:52:39 dum de dum 05:53:48 Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@207-237-217-78.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 05:54:24 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-1-13.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 05:55:32 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-137-200-152.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:59:40 -!- JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182ddad4.dyn.optonline.net] has left #scheme 06:00:35 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:00:44 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 06:07:49 kniu [n=kniu@LEMON.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 06:09:46 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 06:10:10 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 06:12:20 DUM de d... 06:12:24 ...oh, darn. Too late. 06:14:06 hi gnomon 06:14:25 *duncanm* waits for Qi to finish downloading 06:14:32 hmm, Qi, the british TV show 06:14:44 not that lisp-y language 06:14:49 Quite Interesting! 06:17:03 gnomon: do you watch it? 06:24:22 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:24:50 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 06:26:07 duncanm, I have the first four series on an optical disc on loan from a pair of friends, but sadly no, I have not yet watched it. 06:33:54 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 06:34:19 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 06:49:12 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:49:34 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 06:51:05 -!- npe [i=npe@66.112.249.175] has quit [] 06:52:33 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-182-198.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 06:54:54 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 06:56:45 psygnisfive [n=psygnisf@c-71-57-164-119.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:57:29 greetings, schemers! 06:59:42 *synx* schemes ways to stop newsgroup flooding 07:03:05 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:03:28 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 07:07:11 -!- ttmrichter [n=ttmricht@59.174.134.36] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 07:08:58 -!- Cale [n=Cale@CPE001c10c70239-CM000e5cdd834a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:11:17 ttmrichter [n=ttmricht@59.174.134.36] has joined #scheme 07:12:27 npe [n=npe@66.112.249.148] has joined #scheme 07:17:34 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:17:56 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 07:19:42 Who is imustask? 07:24:51 dakeyras [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-134-71.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 07:25:26 -!- dakeyras [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-134-71.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:28:52 K. Satsumi, the well-known tangerine billionaire, spelled sideways? 07:30:00 Ah, of course. 07:30:33 I must ask... 07:31:01 And it's satsuma, Daemmerung but close. 07:32:24 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:32:34 who's satsuma? 07:32:47 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 07:33:40 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikan 07:33:46 orange? 07:35:04 yes, and very tasty too 07:35:05 how do Americans pronounce it? 07:35:21 ah, probably sat-su-ma 07:35:52 instead of sa-tsu-ma 07:36:05 Yep. 07:36:15 The romanji is sa-tsu-ma 07:36:38 to pronounce it, probably best to just look at the Japanese. Easy language to learn how to speak. 07:37:05 yes, i do speak japanese, so i know 07:37:31 oh, so why did you ask? 07:37:59 most USAers haven't even seen mikan... would probably pronounce it tan-ger-ine. 07:38:50 i thought you were talking about some guy, hence the 'who' 07:39:22 ... except satsuma isn't Japanese. 07:39:40 foof: what is it, then? 07:39:46 mikan 07:39:57 i'm all confused now 07:40:00 It's Chinese in origin...like most all citrus fruits. 07:40:09 woohoo! 07:40:15 yeah, so says the wikipedia 07:40:43 i didn't know that mikan came from Chinese, i thought it was a Japanese native word 07:41:32 It's a Japanese romanization of a Japanese pronounciation of a Chinese word... 07:41:53 foof: most of the time, it's not written with kanji, isn't it? 07:42:44 yeah, those are not part of jouyo kanji 07:42:50 it says so on the wikipedia 07:43:04 It would be I think, in Japanese. Most nouns are. 07:43:24 Well, the Japanese use a lot of non-jouyo kanji. 07:43:38 It's written in katakana or hiragana. 07:44:03 foof: yeah, if you read the Japanese entry on 'Kankitsurui' (citrus type), it says so there 07:45:02 oh, my bad then. I don't know much about Japanese... 07:45:24 It's only the only foreign language I ever learned :( nothing special 07:45:30 synx: yeah, foof lives in Japan, and I speak both Chinese and Japanese, so... we know ;-) 07:45:54 foof: oh dude, i'm seeing npe sometime during Thanksgiving 07:46:18 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:46:26 cool 07:46:39 MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has joined #scheme 07:46:42 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 07:46:45 *foof* hasn't had Thanksgiving dinner in 7 years :( 07:47:12 must be nice 07:47:50 foof: i read some article earlier today that said the top 10 most edited articles in the Japanese wikipedia all have to do with anime/manga 07:47:55 which is kinda sad 07:48:10 *synx* hasn't had sushi in 8 :) 07:48:18 http://meta.neojaponisme.com/2008/11/13/wikipedia-japan-all-anime-no-politics/ 07:48:20 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/5w8s46 07:49:07 They like harmony. It's part of the Japanese culture not to talk about politics or to disagree about things in general. 07:49:54 foof: a japanese coworker said to me the other day, "japanese people are always polite, but they're not always kind" - i thought it was very true 07:50:36 it's important not to always be kind, or people will take advantage of you. 07:51:14 la la la 07:51:56 foof: i've read online that in Japan, they eat KFC during x'mas - but i've been Tokyo around that time of the year before, and i've never seen people going to KFC 07:52:10 i always thought it's probably something that people just passed around 07:52:28 X'mas eve is a big date night. Everyone tries to go to nice restaurants. 07:52:37 I would say China has a much stronger culture than anywhere else about not disagreeing with things. Haven't they had the same government for thousands of years at a time? 07:52:40 yeah, that part i know - it's the same in Hong Kong 07:52:55 synx: huh? 07:53:02 I bet there are USAers who eat at KFC during xmas 07:53:42 Before Mao I mean. 07:53:48 synx: huh? 07:54:16 -!- ttmrichter [n=ttmricht@59.174.134.36] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:54:30 i'm going to bed 07:54:32 g'night 07:54:51 oyasumi 07:55:04 says that China has had an emperor since 361 BC... 07:55:35 synx: it wasn't the *same* emperor since 361 BC 07:55:51 there were dynasties, invasions, rebellions, revolts, etc etc 07:55:57 different dynasties 07:56:00 No 221BC my bad 07:56:10 synx: that's the Qin emperor 07:56:12 duncanm: haha no really 07:56:14 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 07:56:16 okay, time to bed 07:56:21 Yes, but always an emperor afterwards. 07:56:31 What does gov't have to do with individual people agreeing or not? 07:56:41 yeah sorry, nite 07:56:42 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 08:05:12 if they didn't go along with the status quo, the government would be unstable... 08:05:48 ttmrichter [n=ttmricht@59.174.134.36] has joined #scheme 08:05:56 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 08:06:23 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 08:07:32 ehe reading Chinese history is like something out of a horror novel 08:07:37 -!- npe [n=npe@66.112.249.148] has quit [] 08:07:42 Being compared to the First Emperor, Mao responded: "He buried 460 scholars alive; we have buried forty-six thousand scholars alive... You [intellectuals] revile us for being Qin Shi Huangs. You are wrong. We have surpassed Qin Shi Huang a hundredfold." 08:11:22 speaking of mao... http://wellnowwhat.net/transfers/CHAIRMAN%20ROFL%20MAO.jpg 08:12:06 synx: isn't that a generic marxist degeneracy, though, and not sino-centric? 08:14:16 klutometis: well the Soviets killed plenty of stupid people, so I don't know really. Marx didn't mention that killing scholars would bring about his sort of revolution... he focused more on bosses. 08:14:41 dont forget pol pot 08:15:48 peasant revolutions tend to be anti-intellectual... no other way to fool stupid people into doing your dirty work. 08:15:59 ejs [n=eugen@134-165-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 08:16:21 the best part about pol pot is that he railed against the influence of foreign and foreignly influenced intellectuals 08:16:33 when he himself was trained in his ways... IN PARIS 08:17:03 he was atleast correct in saying the foreignly influenced intellectuals were destroying cambodia! 08:17:52 incubot: wut 08:18:02 I don't think any anti-intellectual leader will ever be remembered with kind words. 08:18:10 stupid incubot :( 08:18:45 That's because it's the intellectuals who do the remembering. 08:18:57 It's like Garrison Keillor once said, "Never threaten a writer. We can immortalize you in ways you might not find pleasant." 08:21:34 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:22:00 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 08:39:53 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:40:21 -!- Debolaz [n=debolaz@nat.andersberle.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:41:21 incubot: you only respond to four-letter+ words, don't you? 08:41:23 No, I mean, like the other two are S and K, and CL combinators typically have one-letter names. 08:42:19 Debolaz [n=debolaz@nat.andersberle.com] has joined #scheme 08:42:32 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.126] has joined #scheme 08:45:35 incubot: Fnord! 08:45:37 Non consing lisp? 08:52:27 incubot: can't you define cons stuff in terms of s and k? 08:52:29 On page 49 though, he says "a closure object is a list of three elements: a function body, an environment, and a list of variables." He presents this as an example: ((cons x y) ((x) . (a)) (y)) 08:57:38 -!- MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:59:47 that's wrong, ((x) . (a)) is not a valid scheme expression 09:00:12 neither can you apply a cons-cell to anything 09:00:17 it's data 09:01:04 is it the right answer? 09:12:38 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 09:16:32 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 09:19:33 kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 09:19:46 -!- synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:20:00 synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has joined #scheme 09:23:01 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-199-187-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 09:23:50 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #scheme 09:26:14 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B053B63.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 09:30:41 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:42:25 benny [n=benny@i577A0AD0.versanet.de] has joined #scheme 09:49:10 rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #scheme 09:50:56 -!- synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:00:35 galdor [n=galdor@bur91-2-82-231-160-213.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 10:02:00 -!- galdor [n=galdor@bur91-2-82-231-160-213.fbx.proxad.net] has left #scheme 10:32:35 orgy` [n=ratm_@pD9FFE3E7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 10:56:25 -!- rotty [n=rotty@chello084114192192.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["leaving"] 10:56:39 rotty [n=rotty@chello084114192192.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #scheme 10:59:13 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-177-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 11:03:29 elf [i=elf@antenora.aculei.net] has joined #scheme 11:08:29 where does PLoT Scheme live? Can't find ot 11:13:02 lol, PloT Scheme :) 11:14:39 i need to draw some charts 11:14:56 name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #scheme 11:42:01 -!- a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has quit ["the young soldier fart his brother looked at each other, fart both knew that with love, fart truth, fart courage both would e] 11:48:46 pmatos [n=pmatos@78.149.252.77] has joined #scheme 11:50:38 -!- ejs [n=eugen@134-165-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:58:45 sili [n=sili@203.177.239.155] has joined #scheme 11:59:54 -!- error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["¬"] 12:00:06 fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-084-059-047-013.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 12:01:15 anyone used the json egg for chicken? I'm suck because it's parsing a hash/object and returning me a vector 12:02:51 The docs aren't clear 12:03:18 It says that hashtables and vectors are converted to objects (I think) 12:03:27 It does not say what objects are converted to when reading 12:05:01 frustrating 12:06:07 I suppose that it always uses vectors 12:06:21 It's weird 12:06:27 I'd have thought it would use an alist 12:06:39 wisey [n=Steven@host81-159-5-211.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 12:06:48 But of course the list already maps to an arra 12:06:50 array 12:07:08 Conceptually, I think Scheme vectors are more like JS arrays, though 12:08:13 is there an "eval" function in scheme? 12:08:18 yes 12:08:21 specbot: r5rs eval 12:08:21 http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_idx_578 12:08:22 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/4qfyda 12:08:52 sili how is it called? 12:09:06 (eval 12:09:08 oh thanks 12:09:10 expression environment-specifier) 12:09:37 well, i get "reference to an identifier before its definition: eval" in drscheme 12:10:16 lang? 12:11:05 eh.."advanced" ? 12:11:24 sjamaan: I'd have used lists and alists or vectors and hashes, but whatever it's doing is retarded 12:11:33 yeah 12:11:43 i think were not supposed to use eval then :8 12:12:10 sili: Maybe you can mail the author and ask for some clarification, if that would help 12:12:20 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:12:29 If nothing else, maybe you can write a patch to make it behave sane 12:12:45 Of course, then you might get the "backwards compat" bullshit 12:12:57 (no idea how many people are using this egg) 12:13:01 I could always just write a library the "works" 12:13:09 that* 12:13:27 it even croaks when you use ' instead of " for quoting values 12:14:28 a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has joined #scheme 12:15:06 wow, that's bad 12:15:18 otoh, is that part of the json spec? 12:15:21 are some of you actually using scheme, because you want to use it? 12:15:27 or..because you like it? 12:15:34 ? 12:15:38 I want to use it because I like it 12:15:53 why do you like it? 12:16:01 I want to use it because I like it, but it makes me want to throw my laptop at someone 12:16:01 Because it's elegant, simple and powerful 12:16:23 What more can you ask for? 12:16:47 what about readability? 12:16:59 I think it's very readable 12:17:10 It might take some getting used to, at first 12:17:12 for how long are you using it? 12:17:22 Couple years 12:17:31 sjamaan: I do believe it's part of the spec 12:18:00 sili: Then it's a genuine bug 12:18:45 I'm tempted to yacc + ffi 12:20:12 Why? JSON syntax is not too complicated 12:20:17 You could just patch the egg 12:20:53 because I'm sick 12:20:57 :) 12:21:27 orgy`: Why are you using Scheme? 12:24:36 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-54-16.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 12:25:06 sjamaan because our docent wants me to 12:25:24 :) 12:25:28 ive only been coding python privately 12:25:36 I know enough people who had problems with Scheme at uni 12:26:06 I think it was mostly the "it's completely different" aspect that got them 12:26:15 ive got problems with recursion, or actually in simplyfing it 12:26:15 If you can't get over that, you're in for a tough ride 12:26:31 well, we only have to use it for some weeks 12:26:38 orgy`: What book are you using? 12:26:49 he wants to teach us the "basics of programming" with it 12:26:50 none :D 12:26:59 hm 12:27:13 I can recommend getting a book called The Little Schemer and working through it 12:27:14 i dont have money for it, have to buy many other books 12:27:24 (you can get it from a library) 12:28:08 It's chock full of recursion examples and guides you through the recursion process step by step 12:28:50 sounds reasonable, ill try to find it in the library, thank for the tip :) 12:29:25 yw 12:29:29 is it easy to set scheme and emacs up on a powerbook g4? 12:30:32 mac os 10.3.9 12:32:17 gigabytes [n=gigabyte@host54-16-dynamic.5-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 12:32:39 wisey: Shouldn't be too hard 12:33:06 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-36-44.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:35:39 any tut's on it? 12:38:49 i haven't used either of them before 12:39:39 There are several ready-made native emacs binaries you can download 12:40:04 It depends on which Scheme you want to use how to install it 12:40:16 Most Schemes are probably easiest to install through macports 12:40:30 DrScheme is also downloadable as a OS X appdir 12:44:23 i have drscheme but some of the basic procedures aren't working. 12:45:26 Define "aren't working" 12:45:44 i'll just check 12:48:37 -!- gigabytes [n=gigabyte@host54-16-dynamic.5-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [] 12:51:18 ye, define works 12:51:56 /o\ 12:51:57 should i just stick with drscheme 12:52:42 Whatever you find most useful 12:52:58 If you're not sure, stick with what works 12:55:44 I'd like to use emacs though 12:56:38 You can use emacs together with mzscheme, the commandline interpreter that's shipped with DrScheme 12:56:43 You can find it inside the appdir 13:01:43 cool, i see it 13:01:48 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:02:10 how do i link emacs with mzscheme 13:03:36 You can C-u M-x scheme 13:03:43 Then it will ask you the path to the interpreter 13:04:01 You can also (setq scheme-program-name "path/to/mzscheme") in your .emacs 13:09:26 now i need emacs, 13:10:59 step 3: PROFIT! 13:12:22 :) 13:12:25 Hi leppie 13:12:30 hi 13:12:51 gigabytes [n=gigabyte@host11-233-dynamic.20-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 13:30:07 is it possible to get a version of emacs that has already been built because when I configure it tells me there is no gcc and no cc. no acceptale c compiler found 13:30:33 Sure 13:30:37 Just google it :) 13:31:06 (gcc is part of Xcode on OS X, so if you install that, you will be able to compile it) 13:31:10 would it make more sense to build it from the source code though 13:31:24 No idea 13:31:25 rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 13:31:51 is XCode free 13:31:56 yes 13:32:02 Free as in beer 13:32:43 eren_ [n=eren@88.253.20.228] has joined #scheme 13:33:26 compiling it might be fun! 13:41:50 it looks like xcode is on the cd 13:41:58 yeah, it should be 13:42:12 I bet you can find a newer version online, though 13:42:34 (iirc you need a Apple Developer account to download it) 13:42:37 so they don't install it by default 13:42:41 nope 13:42:47 Most people aren't programmers :) 13:42:55 Xcode is pretty big, too 13:43:57 just as a matter of interest, which IDE is used to build programs on ubuntu linux. I have a copy on my PC 13:44:14 There is no single IDE 13:44:37 There are a number to choose from, but lots of people don't use an IDE 13:45:04 Just gcc from the commandline, with make and possibly GNU autotools and a text editor 13:45:16 there is no c compiler on that atm either 13:45:27 Oh, right 13:45:35 You can install gcc with synaptic 13:45:48 -!- Debolaz [n=debolaz@nat.andersberle.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:45:55 it says gcc not recognised or something 13:46:14 Maybe you need to enable an extra repository 13:46:33 Debolaz [n=debolaz@nat.andersberle.com] has joined #scheme 13:46:42 ya, will it say gcc 13:47:07 ? 13:48:08 well, you can choose to intall certain programs in the repository can't you? I haven't used it for a while. 13:48:21 yeah 13:48:31 I assume the package is called 'gcc' 13:48:38 I don't use Ubuntu 13:49:09 If you want to know for sure, visit their channel here 13:49:25 so once that is enabled. make will build programs for me? on ubuntu? 13:49:46 That depends on the program ;) 13:50:20 as always 13:50:22 Lots of programs have some dependencies, of which you will then need to install development headers 13:50:49 i'm new to programming 13:50:54 I can tell :) 13:51:35 ok, think i'll get the cd 13:55:59 *klutometis* just realizes that emacs has an M-x grep; nice 13:57:21 klutometis: It also has an M-x rgrep, which I find more useful 14:01:07 Hmmm... Emacs doesn't like 45k regular expressions... 14:01:38 heh 14:01:45 -!- eren_ [n=eren@88.253.20.228] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 14:01:49 I don't, either ;) 14:01:59 Do you? 14:02:10 Well... irregex would :) 14:02:15 :) 14:02:16 Cool 14:05:11 sjamaan: that's nice; especially with C-x ` 14:06:27 to think that i was manually loading files all these years and using M-g g; man 14:07:33 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #scheme 14:08:18 klutometis: How to use C-x `? 14:08:26 It says "no buffers have error message locations" 14:08:34 What triggers an error message location? 14:13:03 -!- geckosenator [n=sean@c-24-8-193-190.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:13:12 -!- gigabytes [n=gigabyte@host11-233-dynamic.20-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [] 14:14:02 sjamaan: oh; for me it opens the file and jumps to the line where it found the regex 14:19:41 I just press enter on the line :) 14:20:04 And with n/p you can select the next or previous match 14:24:43 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.126] has quit ["bbl"] 14:25:12 synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has joined #scheme 14:27:30 that's nice, too; the advantage of next-error (C-x `) is that you don't have to leave the buffer: but, on the other hand, it's sequential 14:27:43 come to think of it, i rarely go through grep results sequentially 14:28:10 I often do, when "refactoring" 14:29:02 For example, suppose I change a function signature, I need to go through all the call sites and change the call 14:30:57 good point; i'm surprised emacs doesn't have some refactoring facility; it's the one feature that eclipse users are always touting 14:31:16 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 14:31:31 There's a project to bring those IDE-like features to emacs 14:31:38 Can't remember its name right now 14:31:56 It has a graphical directory tree view, and some kind of class parser for C++, iirc 14:41:45 -!- suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has left #scheme 14:43:28 npe [n=npe@66.112.249.148] has joined #scheme 14:51:01 sjamaan, the build didn't work. it had a couple of errors. I could try a different srcdir 14:53:36 -!- tizoc_ is now known as tizoc 15:04:01 cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-232-219-241.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:14:39 rtra: in PLT, (require plot) 15:19:41 suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 15:19:55 -!- Daemmerung [n=goetter@64.146.161.228] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:20:00 Daemmeru` [n=goetter@64.146.161.228] has joined #scheme 15:21:59 GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-235-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:22:04 -!- GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-235-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has left #scheme 15:26:54 exexex [n=chatzill@85.101.222.170] has joined #scheme 15:28:13 brandelune_ [n=JC@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 15:28:44 -!- brandelune_ [n=JC@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 15:31:21 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-175.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 15:31:35 gigabytes [n=gigabyte@host220-232-dynamic.2-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 15:33:57 *foof* resists the urge to rant on the PLT list why the multiple-values bug just posted is a classic example of why MV is such a bad idea 15:34:11 :) 15:37:21 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 15:38:38 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 15:39:10 foof: don't want to be the bearer of ill tidings? 15:39:16 otherwise, let them have it; i'd say 15:40:51 foof: link? 15:41:09 most recent message on the plt-scheme alias. 15:45:54 elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has joined #scheme 15:46:27 Basically, it complicates the whole semantics of Scheme. Every higher-order function and every macro has to take MV into account. 15:46:48 rant away 15:46:49 If you don't, people get surprised when they use MV and it breaks. 15:47:25 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-232-219-241.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 15:47:26 -!- exexex [n=chatzill@85.101.222.170] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:47:30 exexex_ [n=chatzill@85.101.222.170] has joined #scheme 15:47:32 -!- exexex_ is now known as exexex 15:48:43 So then you have to go back and hack in MV-support, and in cases like this it's unlikely that the current code will be able to support MV without capturing the results as an intermediate list. 15:48:59 Thus completely destroying the performance of MATCH, something that *really* needs to be fast. 15:50:12 What of multiple return values destroys the performance of MATCH? 15:50:39 The post I saw suggested that something was probably not a tail call but should have been -- and that's a much more serious issue. 15:53:33 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0AD0.versanet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:02:56 cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-232-219-241.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:03:33 This case may indeed be a symptom of poor coding. There are other cases where you really do want to capture intermediate values. 16:04:05 how do I escape a quote within a string 16:04:08 chicken 16:05:57 sili: Same as in all Schemes: "\"" 16:07:04 amazing 16:07:44 I guess I didn't accomodate shell behavior. should have tried that in a repl first 16:07:48 instead of csi -e 16:08:02 replor [n=replor@121.92.152.28] has joined #scheme 16:18:05 ttmrichter_ [n=ttmricht@59.172.140.194] has joined #scheme 16:18:57 specbot: r5rs strings 16:18:58 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for strings. 16:20:20 I think specbot only knows about procedure and special form names 16:21:54 aha; so there's no way to call up, say, section 6.3.5 of r5rs 16:22:33 afaik, no 16:23:17 -!- ttmrichter [n=ttmricht@59.174.134.36] has quit [Success] 16:38:43 schmalbe [n=bernhard@p549A35C4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 16:44:10 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-177-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:49:39 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:51:58 benny` [n=benny@i577A0AD0.versanet.de] has joined #scheme 16:53:42 -!- exexex [n=chatzill@85.101.222.170] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:54:40 -!- wisey [n=Steven@host81-159-5-211.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has left #scheme 16:55:41 jdijk [n=jerry@ftth-212-84-159-210.solcon.nl] has joined #scheme 16:57:45 elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has joined #scheme 17:00:43 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 17:00:56 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 17:01:19 vasa [n=vasa@mm-119-90-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #scheme 17:06:46 -!- jdijk [n=jerry@ftth-212-84-159-210.solcon.nl] has quit [] 17:11:33 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:11:51 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 17:16:21 saccade_ [n=saccade@209.6.23.56] has joined #scheme 17:21:23 foof, what that suggests is that the language ought to provide BEGIN0. 17:24:03 As a simple example of where that won't help, consider a DEFINE-MEMOIZED syntax. 17:24:23 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:25:24 Do you expect the overhead of listing values to compare noticeably to the overhead of storing the map in the first place? 17:26:42 The primary complaint is the added complexity. Performance is secondary and less common. 17:28:03 Contrariwise, omitting multiple return values adds other complexity. 17:28:42 Whatever, I've argued this too may times, and heard all the arguments. 17:28:53 *foof* goes to sleep 17:29:05 benny [n=benny@i577A0AD0.versanet.de] has joined #scheme 17:29:13 -!- benny` [n=benny@i577A0AD0.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:31:43 The one place where I find MV attractive is in function composition. It is appealing to be able to compose multiple functions and have some of the outer functions still accept more than a single argument. 17:31:55 -!- Daemmeru` is now known as Daemmerung 17:33:03 elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has joined #scheme 17:34:31 la la la 17:35:21 But it does violence to the syntax. I don't think there's any reconciling the single-rooted-tree nature of a s-expression versus this desire to have the ability to pass multiple values to some continuation. 17:35:57 -!- sili [n=sili@203.177.239.155] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:36:22 -!- gigabytes [n=gigabyte@host220-232-dynamic.2-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [] 17:37:15 I was told that the purpose of the ability to pass multiple values was to unify the process of calling a procedure, and returning from one. 17:37:42 renke [n=renke@Lc70e.l.pppool.de] has joined #scheme 17:38:04 To be honest, I don't mind (define (compose-2 f g) (lambda x (call-with-values (lambda () (apply g x)) f))). (What bothers me much more than the use of CALL-WITH-VALUES, indeed, is the conventional order of composition, leading to absurdity such as (COMPOSE FOO->BAR MUMBLE->FOO).) 17:38:10 -!- Adrinael [i=adrinael@rid7.kyla.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:45:05 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 17:45:31 jewel [n=jewel@41.247.196.250] has joined #scheme 17:49:53 Riastradh: (COMPOSE BAR<-FOO FOO<-MUMBLE) :) 17:49:53 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@209.6.23.56] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:50:00 cute 17:50:39 Like Hello Kitty with a facehugger. 17:55:32 saccade_ [n=saccade@209.6.23.56] has joined #scheme 18:02:59 Adrinael [i=adrinael@rid7.kyla.fi] has joined #scheme 18:05:35 -!- synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:05:43 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:06:08 michaelw, I think you mean `(:'. 18:07:00 I'm tired as hell; but there's something absurdly funny about a quoted smiley. 18:07:36 Especially with the orthographic, psuedo-LaTeX backtick and apostrophe. 18:08:28 s/ue/eu/ 18:10:10 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-119-90-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 18:10:17 incubot: would sleep-deprived surrealism were a permanent state; or not. 18:10:19 I'm just along for the surrealism. 18:10:31 *Daemmerung* can never remember how to spell "suede" 18:10:55 S-W-A-Y-E-D 18:11:12 Swayed-O-Code(tm) 18:14:20 elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has joined #scheme 18:15:56 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@209.6.23.56] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:17:06 I suppose a state of permanent surrealism were not unlike HPPD. 18:18:03 Dude, you need to throw yourself into the arms of Morpheus RSN. The walls won't stop seething until you do. 18:24:49 synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has joined #scheme 18:30:00 Daemmerung: no shit; maybe I'll hymn to Hypnos first, even though Nyx is nowhere to be seen. 18:32:33 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-251-241-233.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 18:33:41 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 18:34:30 *Daemmerung* awoke to the rosy fingers of Eos -- very welcome after this week's cloud cover 18:42:02 -!- psygnisfive [n=psygnisf@c-71-57-164-119.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has left #scheme 18:47:50 MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has joined #scheme 19:08:32 -!- incubot [n=incubot@24.205.65.135] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:09:21 incubot [n=incubot@24.205.65.135] has joined #scheme 19:11:44 -!- Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@207-237-217-78.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:13:20 wastrel [n=wastrel@nylug/member/wastrel] has joined #scheme 19:19:56 kuribas [i=kristof@d54C4305D.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 19:20:15 gigabytes [n=gigabyte@host79-236-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 19:22:21 Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@207-237-217-78.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 19:30:15 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-229-68.dsl.look.ca] has joined #scheme 19:32:52 name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #scheme 19:33:57 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 19:35:14 -!- gigabytes [n=gigabyte@host79-236-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [] 19:38:41 *mbishop* is freezing his nips off 19:47:41 sili [n=sili@125.212.115.254] has joined #scheme 19:48:26 is there such a construct that will evaluate each statement until one is false or null? 19:49:36 "null" is not false in Scheme. Otherwise, `and'. 19:49:39 I presume you mean a construct involving a sequence of *expressions* (there is no such thing as a `statement' in Scheme), which will evaluate expression sequentially until one of them yields false or null. 19:50:13 There is no built-in construct for doing this; if you relax the condition `false or null' to be `false', then AND will do what you want. 19:50:16 Why do you want `false or null'? 19:50:52 I meant them exclusively 19:50:57 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:51:03 (You could wrap the subexpression to return #f upon null?.) 19:51:07 Can you give a concrete example of what you want this construct for? 19:51:44 sili, you could make a macro to do it 19:52:04 I haven't worked up the nerve to write macros yet 19:52:20 See also let-and* or and-let* or whatever it's called this week. A very useful idiom. 19:52:32 ((_ expr0 exprs ...) (let ((x expr0)) (if (and x (not (null x?))) (some-macro exprs ...)) 19:52:38 There should be a justification for it before a macro for it. 19:53:16 `False or null' is an unusual condition, so I'm curious to see an example of where it arises. 19:53:38 Mechanical translation from Common Lisp would be my expectation. 19:56:33 I don't need it to respond to both 19:56:36 either one will do 19:56:54 sili, can you give an example of its use? 19:57:43 actually, I want an and-append 19:57:45 Then just `and' will do. (and (this returns true) (this returns true) (this returns false) (this is never evaluated)) 19:59:15 -!- incubot [n=incubot@24.205.65.135] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:59:20 sili, please pardon my persistence, but are you distracted, on a ridiculously slow connection, distracted, or unable to procure a concrete example of what you seek to accomplish here? 19:59:44 Um, strike the repeated `distracted'. 20:00:07 Riastradh: maybe he's distracted. 20:00:15 all of the above 20:00:44 I guess I need to think more. my question might be "wrong" 20:00:49 Well, then perhaps you could describe the problem you're actually trying to solve. 20:01:45 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 20:02:19 I want to procure a list of (append)ed values, which short circuits if one is null 20:03:51 -!- npe [n=npe@66.112.249.148] has quit [] 20:04:04 I'll think about it more before wasting your time though 20:04:14 (apply append (andmap ...)) would be close. Again you'd have to do a null? to #f wrapping within. 20:04:22 incubot [n=incubot@24.205.65.135] has joined #scheme 20:04:34 o0o. andmap 20:04:49 (andmap is not standard, but you can write it easily enough.) 20:04:58 -!- orgy` [n=ratm_@pD9FFE3E7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:05:04 (It's called EVERY, not ANDMAP, in `standard' dialect.) 20:05:09 (Thanky.) 20:05:20 it's in chicken 20:07:35 gigabytes [n=gigabyte@host213-239-dynamic.15-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 20:11:00 saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-68-12.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 20:11:08 -!- jewel [n=jewel@41.247.196.250] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:13:34 jewel [n=jewel@41.247.196.192] has joined #scheme 20:13:44 -!- gigabytes [n=gigabyte@host213-239-dynamic.15-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [] 20:17:41 -!- pmatos [n=pmatos@78.149.252.77] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:18:24 pmatos [n=pmatos@78.147.207.213] has joined #scheme 20:23:07 rudybot: any messages for me? 20:28:59 name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #scheme 20:29:12 -!- bsmntbombdood [n=gavin@97-118-122-197.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:31:30 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-68-12.dyn.mit.edu] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:38:50 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-232-219-241.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:40:58 bsmntbombdood [n=gavin@97-118-122-197.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 20:44:08 incubot: tell rudybot to suck it 20:44:10 just in general, any video might suck you in more than just looking at the book. 20:44:55 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-229-68.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:45:25 JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182ddad4.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 20:45:48 *offby1* unzips a fine leather case, and extract the new Colt .38 Rapid-Fire Denture Hurler 20:49:43 Weapons offer nothing but fear for man. 20:49:56 nvteighen [n=nvteighe@221.Red-81-35-199.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 20:52:51 -!- sili [n=sili@125.212.115.254] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:53:15 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 20:53:30 oh posh! I've fired weapons that offered a quite lovely sense of empowerment and manliness 20:53:42 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:53:50 -!- attila_lendvai_ is now known as attila_lendvai 20:53:55 granted, that was just me, and not all mankind; but still. 20:54:23 -!- attila_lendvai is now known as Guest69314 20:55:25 -!- Guest69314 is now known as attila_lendvai 20:59:11 npe [n=npe@adsl-75-55-118-212.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 21:00:05 npe_ [n=npe@adsl-75-55-118-212.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 21:00:50 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-61-150-59.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:00:59 -!- nvteighen [n=nvteighe@221.Red-81-35-199.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has left #scheme 21:01:49 -!- pmatos [n=pmatos@78.147.207.213] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:03:43 Manly, yes-- but I like it, too. 21:05:33 elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has joined #scheme 21:09:30 *offby1* eyes Daemmerung 21:09:51 I've gone from assuming we're _about_ the same age, to believing that we actually grew up in the same house and watched the same lousy TV together. 21:10:02 That ad was _so awful_ 21:10:07 and I _still remember it clearly_ 21:12:25 -!- kniu [n=kniu@LEMON.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:13:14 kniu [n=kniu@CMU-301252.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 21:13:21 Yeah. I can still whistle the stupid theme. It is scalded into whatever remains of my brain. 21:14:33 When I finally lose it and disappear into the woods, you can blame Procter and Gamble. 21:14:50 what commercial are we talking about? 21:16:24 mbishop: I'd tell you if I hated you _slightly_ more 21:16:30 lucky for you I don't. 21:16:55 *offby1* puts his Denture Hurler back in its case 21:17:38 exexex_ [n=chatzill@88.234.190.159] has joined #scheme 21:17:40 -!- exexex_ is now known as exexex 21:17:53 Perhaps if I told you I've been using your old dentures to chew a hole...to the center of the earth! 21:19:50 You're just lucky that Youtube doesn't seem to have the worst of them. I'm not full o' brotherly love like offby1 there; I'd have thrown you into it and left you to founder. Because my twisted TV childhood has left me full of hate. 21:23:05 -!- npe [n=npe@adsl-75-55-118-212.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:24:14 http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~richie/poetry/html/aupoem162.html 21:24:17 heh 21:24:39 asdfa [n=ad@88.235.224.85] has joined #scheme 21:24:45 hey 21:24:57 i read sicp book and i am in serialize shared data 21:25:11 but my scheme doesnt know paralel-execute 21:25:21 it give undefined variable 21:25:33 how can i let it know paralel-execute 21:26:43 -!- npe_ [n=npe@adsl-75-55-118-212.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 21:27:00 Is anybody else having deja vu? 21:28:16 indeed 21:28:21 *mbishop* looks for chandler 21:28:30 sorry 21:28:34 it was parallel 21:28:35 :D 21:29:10 Anyone read this book? http://www.amazon.com/dp/0262201755/ 21:29:29 FareWell [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #scheme 21:29:32 still drscheme doesnt know 21:29:55 When asking questions such as that, mbishop, could you please follow centuries of convention and write the title and author of the book to which you refer? 21:30:16 asdfa: there is a package on PLaneT for the sicp concurrency stuff. 21:30:17 Yeah I probably should 21:30:20 but just a sec 21:31:18 what is the package ? I dont know this package 21:31:59 Something like "sicp-concurrency." - ah yes. http://planet.plt-scheme.org/display.ss?package=sicp-concurrency.plt&owner=dyoo -- I don't know if it works in post-4.0 PLT. 21:32:02 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/565ps6 21:32:53 Sorry, had to let the dog out, anyway the book is "Design Concepts in Programming Languages by Franklyn A. Turbak and David K. Grifford 21:33:14 Gifford* 21:33:16 *offby1* throws his dentures at mbishop's dog 21:33:30 it's not my dog, family dog :P 21:33:32 I haven't read it. The other day I saw another reference to it, but I don't recall where. 21:33:37 *mbishop* prefers cats 21:34:00 (I may have just been looking at Franklyn Turbak's web site, and seen a reference there.) 21:34:24 I was just wondering if the book was a good read (in terms of it's topic, which seems similar to Programming Language Pragmatics and Advanced Programming Language Design) 21:35:03 Are those titles or phrases in your parenthesis, mbishop? 21:35:22 titles 21:36:24 they probably should have been quoted 21:36:33 single or double, I'm not sure 21:37:15 Titles of books should be italicized, or, failing that typographical amenity, underlined, or approximately underlined with underscores: _Programming Language Pragmatics_. 21:38:03 Sir yes sir! :D 21:38:24 underlined? hmm never seen that convention 21:38:44 Never? I find that surprising. 21:38:57 lisppaste, url 21:38:57 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste. 21:39:42 aborlans pasted "sicp-concurency-plt error" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70459 21:39:49 hey 21:39:59 how can i fix this error 21:40:13 Well, perhaps I just never noticed before. 21:40:20 seems like it is a mistake in plt-concurreny.ss 21:40:44 Kerris4: yeah, really :) 21:41:04 I had English teachers who would mark a paper down if you did not specifically underline only titles of novels, but had to italicize "lesser" publications in your bibliography. 21:41:15 very poorly defined edge cases there 21:41:20 asdfa: it does look that way. That package might be intended only for v370 21:41:31 hmm 21:41:47 but offby1 i study sicp and it says use parallel structure 21:41:55 Underlining when italicization is available is reprehensible. 21:42:00 and drscheme doesnt know parallel structure 21:42:10 how can i handle it offby1 21:42:20 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:42:21 Ugh, I hated writing bibliographies...I much prefer a simple system of initials and years, like [Wir89] or something similar 21:42:59 offby1, my drscheme version 4.1.2 21:43:21 asdfa: ask danny yoo. 21:43:22 -!- exexex [n=chatzill@88.234.190.159] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:43:43 what do you mean ask danny yoo my english is not good 21:44:03 I'm not even sure asdfa is supposed to be here 21:44:14 As I'm almost certain he is hellues or whatever 21:44:29 asdfa: you have a number of options available to you. 1) bother dyoo. 2) roll back to v360 or v372. 3) roll up your shirtsleeves and port the package to v400. 4) switch to a Scheme implementation with an implementation of those primitives available. 5) run the examples in your brain instead of a computer. 21:44:31 exexex [n=chatzill@88.234.190.159] has joined #scheme 21:45:20 6) PROFIT!! 21:45:32 D'oh! of course. 21:46:30 option 42 would also be acceptable 21:46:33 -!- kniu [n=kniu@CMU-301252.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:46:42 asdfa: given the language barrier on this IRC channel, you would do well to find a native Turkish speaker to mentor you. (An actual teacher!) We are having great trouble communicating with you. 21:46:46 asdfa: danny yoo wrote the code you're trying to use. Ask him what to do. 21:46:49 mbishop, why do you ban me so ? i made a mistake.I am boring from this sentecne. 21:47:10 kniu [n=kniu@CMU-301252.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 21:47:33 -!- Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@207-237-217-78.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:47:37 akick with ip solve this problem.I am really bored pff :/ 21:47:55 Target identity confirmed. 21:48:19 I didn't ban you, I'm just pointing out that chandler has banned you 4 or 5 times 21:51:44 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:52:23 mercurycc [n=mercuryc@142.151.153.195] has joined #scheme 21:52:24 offby1` [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 21:52:24 -!- FareWell is now known as Fare 21:52:43 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B053B63.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:53:28 -!- offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:53:32 -!- offby1` is now known as offby1 22:04:29 ecraven [i=nex@eutyche.swe.uni-linz.ac.at] has joined #scheme 22:04:37 -!- offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit ["rebooting emacs"] 22:06:31 offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 22:13:32 -!- hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-251-241-233.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [] 22:16:11 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-251-241-233.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 22:17:44 -!- hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-251-241-233.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:24:32 arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-137-200-152.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 22:27:15 -!- kuribas [i=kristof@d54C4305D.access.telenet.be] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:34:44 -!- schmalbe [n=bernhard@p549A35C4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:34:57 -!- exexex [n=chatzill@88.234.190.159] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:42:08 -!- Daemmerung [n=goetter@64.146.161.228] has quit ["Smoove out."] 22:42:49 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-137-200-152.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:42:55 cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-232-219-241.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:43:33 -!- ecraven [i=nex@eutyche.swe.uni-linz.ac.at] has quit ["bbl"] 22:48:47 geckosenator [n=sean@c-24-8-193-190.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:51:43 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-175.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:54:38 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["next of qin"] 22:58:03 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0AD0.versanet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:03:41 -!- vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has quit ["The incensed priests...continued to raise their voices, vituperating each other in bad Latin"] 23:05:24 -!- kniu [n=kniu@CMU-301252.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:08:18 benny [n=benny@i577A0AD0.versanet.de] has joined #scheme 23:08:28 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-232-219-241.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:11:45 cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-232-219-241.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:12:10 sigh... every time I try to work on flood protection on a decentralized forum, I just keep reinventing freenet. 23:12:15 But freenet sucks. Balls. 23:12:23 I try to be polite, but it's just the facts. 23:13:10 I dunno, anything implemented in java really doesn't behave very well. I wonder if it's the language or just the attitude. 23:13:37 mmph 23:15:02 I just want Usenet though, but getting that seems to totally overload even high end systems like crazy. 23:15:21 sounds like you're reinventing the wheel 23:15:32 -!- wastrel [n=wastrel@nylug/member/wastrel] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:16:04 sorry off topic again 23:19:04 it's not like anyone's using the channel for anything else at the moment. 23:20:05 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-232-219-241.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:21:15 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:21:39 I'm just tired of clunking around on square wheels, because that's all they've invented yet. 23:22:24 elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has joined #scheme 23:22:34 might not be possible to invent round ones though. 23:23:47 I was playing around one centralized image board, but it got flooded to crap and back. I can't afford to buy Usenet access. My blog doesn't support comments. It's all the same damn problem, but... what's the solution? 23:23:56 orgy` [n=ratm_@pD9FFE3E7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 23:24:51 love? 23:25:42 *synx* loves the Internets 23:25:55 *synx* gets a 404 :'( 23:26:06 heh 23:26:13 The internets is broken 23:26:39 time for lonely httpd script... 23:27:11 -!- jewel [n=jewel@41.247.196.192] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:28:05 synx: tangentially related: http://www.rants.org/2008/03/06/thread_theory/ 23:29:33 problem with mailing lists: there is no pull interface. It's like the opposite of HTTP. 23:29:43 You can get new messages, but never the ones you missed. 23:29:49 before you were subscribed. 23:30:10 "Im not asking everyone to use my mailreader, by the way. Indeed, I think it would probably drive most people insane." Three guesses which mailreader that is ... 23:30:31 offby1: Telnet!? 23:30:47 naw, Gnus 23:30:54 which I used to use until about two weeks ago 23:31:05 Whose quote is that? 23:31:16 offby1: Compared to telnet, gnus seems a tad bloated.. 23:31:31 ha I used to use Gnus 23:32:04 What do you use now, offby1? 23:32:08 telnet doesn't have any local storage options. It's very centralized. 23:33:25 Riastradh: gmail 23:33:39 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 23:33:43 synx: You can use the plugins "copy and paste" and "ed" for local storage. Very flexible, as long as you use a module with huge buffers. 23:33:47 Dabian: just "a tad"? :-| 23:33:48 exexex [n=chatzill@88.234.190.159] has joined #scheme 23:33:58 -!- exexex [n=chatzill@88.234.190.159] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:34:07 offby1: So, why do you regret not using gnus anymore? 23:34:20 I don't regret it! I feel liberated. 23:34:35 Gnus had been holding me hostage for years, but I snuck out the back door while it was paying for the pizza 23:35:21 You can't copy and paste from within a telnet session, unless you're running X. 23:36:53 synx: or GPM! 23:37:04 offby1: Are you using /usr/bin/mail now? 23:37:11 synx: Or GNU screen! 23:37:39 synx: Or script(1)! 23:38:19 Dabian: nope. 23:38:22 just gmail. 23:38:32 screen can save the buffer? 23:38:52 yes, but it's so complicated that I can never remember ow 23:38:53 how 23:38:58 I think I've done it once. 23:39:01 ^A [ 23:39:14 offby1: As in your firefox/iceape/konquorer/lynx/whatever browser only? 23:39:19 And then press enter, navigate to the endpoint and press enter again 23:39:41 Dabian: yep. 23:40:47 You can also make a hardcopy with ^A h 23:40:49 offby1: Enjoy your freedom while it lasts. ;) 23:41:11 offby1: Eventually you'll hate having to fire up your browser, just to read your mail, i fear. 23:41:57 elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has joined #scheme 23:42:20 mirror you mbox with imap... 23:46:09 2 23:46:17 7! 23:46:34 :) 23:46:41 (Whether that is an exclamation of seven, or seven factorial, is up to the reader to decide.) 23:47:18 Riastradh: Like schödingers cat! 23:47:33 arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-137-200-152.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 23:48:18 Then again, I guess the cat could neither be seven nor 5040. 23:48:24 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:48:35 Um...exactly: it is a thought experiment discussed endlessly philosophers and disregarded by real physicists. 23:49:14 Physicists disregard the cat? 23:51:23 (If they're real) 23:51:57 Actually I meant it as a question: Does physicist disregard Schrödingers cat?