00:01:17 -!- fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-084-059-131-012.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:01:50 *yawn* 00:02:26 saccade_ [n=saccade@65.78.24.47] has joined #scheme 00:02:33 *Riastradh* throws a continuation into foof's gaping mouth and dives for cover before the room implodes. 00:03:18 *foof* chases the continuation down with coffee 00:05:14 That's a lexicalisation, right? "Chase down." 00:05:28 No, it's a dynamicalization. 00:08:09 -!- hemulen [n=hemulen@cpe-069-134-114-252.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:08:15 -!- mheld [n=mheld@129.10.230.158] has quit [] 00:08:49 hemulen [n=hemulen@cpe-069-134-114-252.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 00:11:43 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:12:06 timchen119 [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has joined #scheme 00:12:27 -!- nasloc__ [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:14:11 *foof* just got the joke 00:14:23 -!- kuribas [i=kristof@d54C4305D.access.telenet.be] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:14:37 Good lord, the hours are still in single digits... who's awake at this time?! 00:14:44 mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 00:15:43 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-18-69.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 00:19:54 annodomini_ [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:25:53 me 00:26:26 ye 00:26:29 single digits? 00:26:40 does that mean it's 9 oclock? 00:26:57 foof lives in a hexadecimal world. 00:29:39 Actually, that probably makes most sense in an octal world. 00:29:55 how many hours are in a hexadecimal day? 00:30:35 same as in a decimal day. 00:30:42 18 00:30:54 note how I avoided spelling out the number 00:31:43 you must be in some other timezone from me 00:32:29 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-52-44.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:35:47 -!- renke [n=renke@Le46c.l.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:36:21 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 00:36:28 Planet EST 00:37:03 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:37:54 npe [n=npe@66.112.249.148] has joined #scheme 00:40:46 renke [n=renke@Le46c.l.pppool.de] has joined #scheme 00:41:00 -!- tizoc_ is now known as tizoc 00:45:47 synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has joined #scheme 00:47:29 -!- wingo--tp [n=wingo@232.Red-83-37-99.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:50:30 marvil07 [n=marvil07@64.76.110.180] has joined #scheme 00:50:52 peter_12_ [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 00:57:11 raikov [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has joined #scheme 00:58:38 gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has joined #scheme 01:05:18 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:07:40 Man, 5L is a lot of sauerkraut. 01:08:27 0_o 01:08:32 Daemmerung: what prompted that comment? 01:09:07 hopefully, a fulfilling evening with his polish family 01:10:15 AtnNn_ [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 01:10:21 luz [n=davids@201.29.226.52] has joined #scheme 01:11:01 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:12:14 Daemmerung: seriously? I've spent the last couple days making sauerkraut (among other things); I need to see if you've implanted a transceiver in my skull 01:12:32 JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182ddad4.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 01:13:42 *offby1* checks his skull for bumps 01:13:55 Cracked the kraut crock this evening (for Dr. Daemmerung's annual Kraut Kure. Good for what ails ya) and am just now realizing how much of the shit I have. 01:13:56 a phrenologist, eh? 01:14:24 zbigniew: we're from the German-speaking part of Poland 01:15:05 It spent six months in my basement. Time for this cabbage to serve the motherland! 01:15:08 oh, so, prussia 01:15:24 More like SE of Dresden 01:15:48 It was a long time ago. 01:15:59 well, feel free to fedex some of that shit my way 01:16:29 Gasmasks included? 01:18:13 -!- peter_12_ [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [] 01:18:22 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 01:18:30 any of use use SDL or Scheme to make games? 01:18:40 s/use/you use 01:19:27 yagur [n=yyaaa@211.109.158.113] has joined #scheme 01:20:23 Daemmerung: this is quite eerie. I'm one a one-week vacation taking a fermented-stuff cooking class; we have three large crocks of sauerkraut (and kimchi) on the bench 01:21:04 JohnnyL: #t for Scheme, #f for SDL 01:21:16 offby1: Oh, very cool. 01:21:58 Daemmerung #t: :) #f :( 01:22:03 I'm a baker and a (poor, occasional) brewer. Thought I'd branch out into pickles. 01:22:33 we're doing bread and wine, too (no beer, alas) 01:22:47 also miso, yogurt ... 01:23:04 I use Scheme and OpenGL to make games. (ha) SDL people have been warning me away from... 01:23:33 Wine in a week? Pruno! 01:23:55 well, mead (and it doesn't really seem to have taken off :-|) 01:24:06 Daemmerung: instructor's web site: http://wildfermentation.com/ 01:24:45 mmm...rotten honey... 01:24:49 "Fermentation fetishist." Heh. 01:24:54 peter_12_ [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 01:25:15 Mead was a plan back when I wanted bees. But decided to let my neighbors climb that learning curve (and shock the bears into submission) first. 01:25:44 NC or NY? 01:25:55 Oh, duh, NC. 01:27:16 synx, cool man. 01:27:33 synx, how do you link the opengl to the scheme and which scheme do you use? 01:28:06 s/I'm one/I'm on/ .... seven minutes ago 01:28:24 JohnnyL: plt comes with a OpenGL module. I've done some C OpenGL before, so... 01:29:03 synx oh ok 01:29:26 JohnnyL: I've seen SDL programs written in Gambit. 01:29:38 SDL seems fairly FFI-friendly. 01:29:53 synx, if i can avoid it i'd like to get an isometric engine. do you think OpenGL will be as easy as other interfaces (if there are even any)? 01:30:08 Daemmerung oh yeah? thanks for the shout out. 01:30:46 JohnnyL: Yeah, probably faster than anything else too. 01:31:20 synx ok. 01:32:18 synx, since it's isometrix i believe i just use 2d matrix computations on one texture. 01:32:48 I still have a bit to go. 01:33:15 -!- luz [n=davids@201.29.226.52] has quit ["Client exiting"] 01:34:34 -!- hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-251-241-233.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [] 01:36:22 JohnnyL: Yeah that's pretty much what people do. You could also make one sided 3D stuff without rotation... like a backdrop type thing. 01:37:25 ok 01:38:08 I suppose I'll have a look at Gambit. 01:39:06 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-1-184.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 01:39:39 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:41:31 Look for David St-Hilaire's Space Invaders, and Ken Dickey's GUI-Toy. Both are in the wiki, I think. 01:43:50 -!- peter_12_ [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [] 01:44:31 Daemmerung ah ok, much appreciado. 01:55:51 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-229-68.dsl.look.ca] has joined #scheme 02:02:50 -!- cpfr [n=cf@dynamic-205-166.usc.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:07:13 -!- underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052011.bbtec.net] has quit [] 02:09:03 -!- AtnNn_ is now known as AtnNn 02:09:13 -!- hemulen [n=hemulen@cpe-069-134-114-252.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [] 02:16:09 -!- renke [n=renke@Le46c.l.pppool.de] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 02:32:54 Dabian [n=user@fsf/member/dabian] has joined #scheme 02:33:32 cpfr [n=cf@cpe-76-171-165-212.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:34:02 GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-235-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:34:09 -!- GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-235-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has left #scheme 02:52:03 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:52:04 -!- langmartin [n=user@75.148.111.133] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:52:35 -!- marvil07 [n=marvil07@64.76.110.180] has quit ["Abandonando"] 02:55:28 How do I get an (interactive) scheme environment with emacs fast in Ubuntu Intrepid? 02:58:06 -!- timchen119 is now known as nasloc__ 02:58:47 Dabian: emacs, M-x run-scheme 03:00:16 duncanm: I get an error .. do you happen to know what to install to make it work? 03:00:31 ahh .. cmusceme? 03:02:45 No, cmuscheme is the Emacs mode. You need to install a Scheme implementation. 03:03:59 I tried installing scheme48 .. but that didn't do it. 03:04:47 There's a variable named scheme-program-name. 03:04:49 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:05:03 In emacs that is. 03:06:59 Korollary: Are you suggesting I do something similar to (setq scheme-program-name "scheme48") ;;; ? 03:07:09 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless153.wireless.utah.edu] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:07:44 -!- bweaver [n=bweaver@75.148.111.133] has quit [] 03:07:48 That did remove the error and I get a prompt of some kind. :) 03:08:37 That works. You can also customize that variable with customize-variable. 03:09:10 It's neater for general emacs configuration maintainability than setq's spread around. 03:09:48 duncanm: Thank you! Riastradh: Thank you! Korollary: Thank you! 03:09:49 I guess next step is to learn how to run a buffer of scheme code, or something like that? 03:10:17 Try describe-mode to see the shortcuts. 03:10:23 jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless153.wireless.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 03:12:26 Ahh .. scheme-mode! 03:12:29 Neat :) 03:17:02 (Neater?) 03:18:21 Yes .. this is nice. 03:19:03 I downloaded doctor scheme last time I tried .. and I wasted a lot of time with no apparent fruit. 03:19:13 hey Riastradh 03:19:35 Now I already made my first scheme function: (define (hehe x) (+ x x)) 03:19:37 03:20:15 Is there a free program in scheme to find pi? 03:20:31 Riastradh probably has it bound to a shortcut key by now 03:21:14 -!- forcer [n=forcer@e179199231.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:21:59 (define pi (* 4 (atan 1 1))) ;; that's one way 03:23:30 if you look around you can find programs that print out the digits to whatever number you want 03:27:32 -!- elf [i=elf@antenora.aculei.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:27:40 Well, just needed something to get started, and I know scheme is good at precision. :) 03:28:05 -!- melito [n=melito@70.99.250.82] has quit ["Leaving..."] 03:29:45 How do I write something to stdout? I tried echo, message and format. 03:29:55 Dabian: (display "foo") 03:30:00 -!- elias` [n=me@cs78208074.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 03:30:22 Dabian: or you can use format, but that is implementation specific, or you can use SRFI-28 03:31:00 (display (format "foo~n")) 03:31:09 oh right, that too 03:31:21 Ahh display, thank you duncanm! Whats SRFI-28 though? 03:31:49 minion: srfi-28 03:31:50 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``srfi-28''. 03:31:53 hmm 03:32:00 minion: srfi 03:32:01 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``srfi''. 03:32:02 http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-28/srfi-28.html 03:32:05 stupid minion 03:32:18 srfi 28 03:32:26 Might want to read the Scheme std before going into SRFIs. 03:32:28 hmm, how do those bots work again? 03:33:07 Daemmerung: I guess thats something I want to read, period? 03:33:43 Absolutely. It's called R5RS, and it is very, very brief. You can safeky skip everything that looks like Greek. 03:33:53 Or safely skip, even. 03:34:14 OK 03:37:28 elf [n=elf@antenora.aculei.net] has joined #scheme 03:37:40 elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has joined #scheme 03:37:46 vincenz [n=arli@li23-146.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 03:38:13 minion: R5RS 03:38:13 R5RS: The Revised^5 Report on Scheme, the most recent revision of the Scheme standard (but see also IEEE-1178), at ; to search its index for an entry, try saying "r5rs entry". 03:39:18 duncanm, (ATAN 0 -1) is easier. 03:40:30 Riastradh: ah, that's right 03:42:40 -!- elf [n=elf@antenora.aculei.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:47:39 what's with these new file extensions? .sls? 03:49:12 PLTism? 03:49:25 .ss is PLT, i think sls is some Ikarus/R6 thing 03:49:29 what the hell is sls? 03:49:35 I thought ss was the standard? 03:49:50 I accidentally at first named them scm but that is because I was being retarded 03:49:51 merlincorey: people usually use .ss and .scm 03:49:57 oh, and Clinger writes .sch 03:49:58 see? 03:50:03 :P 03:50:05 so, Larceny has .sch files 03:51:44 `.scm' is the historically most common extension. 03:52:00 were extensions used in ye olde days of unix? or are they a dos invention 03:52:11 DOS? Ha. 03:52:18 jonrafkind: that's an interesting question 03:52:22 maybe those came from CPM? 03:52:33 Neither Unix nor DOS invented file extensions. 03:52:34 they seem sort of dumb these days.. I wouldnt mind just spelling things out 03:52:59 well were file extensions prevalent in unix? 03:53:01 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_extension#Historical_limitations 03:54:07 It's not just historical limitations. Even today it still takes a heck of a lot longer to open and read bytes from a file than to just list the directory and examine extensions. 03:54:49 extensions aren't the definitive answer for whats in the file 03:54:50 indeed 03:54:58 jonrafkind: no, but they are a good clue 03:55:04 if you really need to know, you can use the MAGIC of file 03:55:14 no they aren't... but they sure are faster. 03:55:26 but it seems like people stick to 3 letters which seems like an ancient system 03:55:27 If you really really need to know, you have to take the hash of the whole file. 03:55:40 except for .java .. 03:55:44 synx: how does that help you? 03:55:55 synx: what kind of hash? O_o 03:56:04 jonrafkind: .html too 03:56:11 oh yea, right 03:56:19 jonrafkind: oh I agree, and in fact I use arbitrary extensions 03:56:21 merlincorey: md5? 03:56:29 synx: that will never tell you the file type 03:56:56 synx: it will give a clue about whether two files are equivalent, but due to collisions it is not 100% 03:57:03 synx, um, please try to make sense; and why would you even imagine doing anything with MD5 except for compatibility these days? 03:57:44 md5 is still pretty good.. 03:58:10 anyway I seem to currently be using such extensions as .note .bash and .dontforget 03:58:14 *Riastradh* coughs. 03:58:16 No, it's not, jonrafkind. 03:58:24 *merlincorey* agrees with Riastradh 03:58:31 *merlincorey* knows a thing or two about crypto so trust him 03:58:34 yes it is, Riastradh 03:58:40 like taking the md5 of text files 03:58:41 well okay sha1, but I mean if you really need to know that the file is a certain file, down to the bits, not just the type... 03:58:45 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-132-132.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:59:10 Modius [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-132-132.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 03:59:15 synx: sha2 with 8 rounds 03:59:31 I didnt say "use md5 to encrypt your ultra secret stuff", but it still has uses here and there 03:59:39 to relegate it to the junk heap is silly 03:59:57 jonrafkind: no, it's practicality 04:00:06 sha2 right, sha1 got collided sigh... 04:00:08 practicality of what. md5sum foo; that was easy 04:00:16 jonrafkind: md5 is vulnerable to collisions 04:00:21 Most software verification things are md5. I guess they reason that any collision would be unlikely to produce a useful malicious hack. 04:00:33 merlincorey, yea so are the rest of them. whats your point 04:00:40 synx: no, they just didn't think there WERE any collisions, it is a relatively recent finding 04:00:49 jonrafkind: prove that sha2 is vulnerable to collisions when using 8 rounds 04:01:01 who said anything about 8 rounds 04:01:06 The use of MD5 in any new programs is a mistake. However innocuous a new program may seem -- well, just consider how easy it is for a Perl script on the internet to grow far beyond its creators wildest nightmares. 04:01:11 aren't all hashes vulnerable to collisions? 04:01:12 merlincorey: Isn't it at least 2 or 3 years old now? 04:01:23 jonrafkind: you clearly don't follow these things ;) 04:01:40 jonrafkind: md5 is vulnerable to calculated collisions, not just accidental ones. 04:01:41 oh, well please be condescending instead of explaining. that helps 04:02:04 synx, so what. if you dont expect people to actively get around md5 its still ok to use 04:02:20 every hashing algorithm is potentially vulnerable to collisions, but they are designed in such a way to minimize or eliminate occurance of it. The problems come along when people find out how to force collisions. 04:02:30 merlincorey, whoever didn't think there existed collisions for any map from {0, 1}^n -> {0, 1}^m with m < n either needs to pay more attention in lecture, or has a future in the janitorial trade. 04:02:32 *Daemmerung* kicks xbindkeys across the room 04:02:47 Riastradh: please refer to previous comment? 04:02:49 So you could take content A, and make content B that had the same hash, so if someone did the md5 of it, they'd think it was A. With other hashes, you can't figure out how to do that, because it's so random. 04:03:03 so.. that still doesnt mean md5 is worthless 04:03:28 will todays latest and greatest hashing algorithm be worthless when the next one comes out tommorow? of course not 04:03:45 jonrafkind, any program that uses MD5 is apt to continue using MD5, even if it is repurposed so that its formerly innocuous purpose changes into one for which the use of MD5 is dangerous. 04:03:47 you might not want to use it for certain domains of course 04:03:53 jonrafkind: it may not be "worthless" but it is quite a bit irresponsible to use it in a new program, which I think is what we are more getting at 04:04:14 No it will be worthless when someone demonstrates how to break it. 04:04:15 I thought the issue was its not that hard to produce a file that hashes to the same thing using md5 04:04:25 my point is, if you aren't worried about such a thing then its perfectly reasonable 04:05:07 why would you ever not be worried about your hashes colliding? 04:05:12 that's the poing in your logic that makes no sense to me 04:05:17 No, it's *not* perfectly reasonable, because the new program you are planning to write using MD5 has a nonzero probability -- and generally, a probability greater than its author believes -- of being used for purposes for which it was not intended. 04:05:18 when are collisions perfectly OK? 04:05:27 no. the point is why would I ever not be worried about someone *purposefully* making a file to collide 04:05:41 jonrafkind: because someone somewhere WILL do it 04:05:50 thats their fault 04:05:53 the consequences depond entirely on the program 04:06:03 Is sha2 with 8 rounds fast? 04:06:19 i have a program that uses md5 sums. if someone wrote a program that purposefully fooled the md5sum to produce a collision then they are a moron 04:06:22 It can't be much slower than the physical process of reading the file's bits at least. 04:06:27 synx: I am pretty sure but have not verified that most implementations by default do 6-8 rounds 04:06:27 there is nothing to be gained from fooling md5sum with my program 04:07:40 jonrafkind has a point. Even though md5 collisions can be deliberately manufactured, the colliding file is not likely to have anything useful in it. Good for denial of service perhaps... 04:07:46 jonrafkind: ok, sure, so, and this is a practically unlikely case due to the nature involved but... so your program md5sums my file and says "GREAT it is as I suspected!" then it executes my file... but I actually gave you a trojan. I am a moron or you are? 04:08:04 merlincorey, wtf are you talking about? when did i say anthing about executing a file? 04:08:13 when did I say "yes use md5 in all cases because its awesome" ?? 04:08:31 You may not believe so now, jonrafkind, but it is easy to forget that your new program should not be used in any context in which the security of a hash function is at issue. 04:08:46 and it isn't! which is exactly my point! 04:08:46 jonrafkind: you never said anything about anything except simply md5sum'ing something. You didn't specify any use whatsoever... but you then tried to suggest that it was perfectly fine for all cases 04:08:55 Probably you don't write every assumption and failing of the program at the top. 04:09:01 merlincorey, no, i never said it was perfect in all cases. please show me where I did 04:09:09 merlincorey: What are the chances that a trojan virus would have the same hash as a useful program? 04:09:20 I said it wasnt completely worthless, as was stated before 04:09:45 I don't really know the probabilities here. Is it easy to do? 04:10:45 Let's try not to misquote one another. Can we agree that MD5 should be avoided in new programs, and forget about vague statements like `MD5 is still pretty good'? 04:10:54 no. that is hogwash 04:11:21 you're saying the only acceptable hash, of anything ever, is sha1 or something better 04:11:31 and that any inferior hashing function should never be used 04:12:42 If one hash has a higher chance of collisions than another, seems pretty obvious which you'd use. 04:12:45 synx: very low, which is why I said it was a practicaly unlikely example 04:13:04 jonrafkind: sha2 :P 04:13:11 ok, that one 04:13:21 jonrafkind: but no, what we are saying is that NEW programs should NOT use md5, md4, md3, md2, md1... 04:13:37 look at what I said and say "yes I agree" or "no, I disagree" 04:13:38 jonrafkind: why do you think new programs SHOULD use it instead of something else? 04:13:52 are any other hashing functions ok in *any* context ever? 04:14:01 I am saying that it is very easy for a program to be repurposed in a way unintended and unanticipated by its author, and that the use of MD5 (which was designed with the primary goal of security) is a mistake. This does not mean that insecure hash functions are not useful; it means that MD5 has outlived its utility. There are simpler, faster insecure hash functions if you want one. 04:14:04 I mean is there *any* context in which a non-sha2 hashing function is ok to use? 04:14:27 jonrafkind: yes, read Riastradh's last remark 04:14:45 oh, I didn't realize we were talking about performance now 04:14:46 jonrafkind: md5 is MEANT for security. If you are hashing NOT securely, there are other alternatives that are FASTER and EASIER to use :) 04:14:47 -!- annodomini_ [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 04:15:05 if Im going to just pick an off the shelf hashing function and my system has md5sum just sitting there, it seems reasonable to use 04:15:32 i dont know about easier.. 04:15:43 faster only matters occasionally 04:15:48 jonrafkind: do you know what a hash table is? have you ever implemented one in a C or C++ data structures class? 04:15:56 oh thank you! please be more of an ass 04:15:58 writing the hash function and dealing with collisions is not exactly difficult. 04:16:12 dakeyras [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-125-63.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 04:16:31 why would I wrote my own hashing function when I can call domd5sum(...) 04:16:33 if you need something simple, use something simple. If you need something complex and/or secure, use something aside from md5 04:16:52 wait a second... what exactly is this program doing 04:16:59 ok this is getting ridiculous 04:17:06 zbigniew: nothing 04:17:12 zbigniew: he refuses to present a use case 04:17:16 zbigniew: it just "hashes" 04:17:37 (then why he is reinventing md5sum the program with his own program that simply calls that function - I don't know) 04:17:49 "Refuses to present"? Why the inquisition? 04:18:26 sorry I didn't mean to come of as an inquisition, but I mean really it shouldn't be terribly much to ask for that info 04:18:47 s/come of/come off/ 04:19:02 if we are expecting to actually discuss it, that is. 04:19:41 otherwise I go back to my resent parenthesized statement: why are we reimplemting md5sum? program already exists ;) 04:19:49 anyway I gotta head out so goodnight :P 04:19:57 *merlincorey* hands jonrafkind a beer in friendship 04:20:06 ok :p 04:20:32 *Daemmerung* has the good feeling that only deleting Guile, TCL, and Tk can give 04:20:56 -!- gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has left #scheme 04:21:48 If I didn't need to use tkabber and Trebuchet TK... 04:23:34 "Try using this small utility," they said. What they didn't say was that the stupid thing would drag Guile, Tcl, and Tk along with it -- the last two only for one dialog box. Flush!! out it goes. 04:24:42 yeah, that's awful. 04:25:26 Still, what are you gonna do? Our stupid thing might drag plt-scheme along with it, for only one dialog box. 04:25:50 thing? 04:27:55 whatever thing we're trying to sell to Daemmerung's long lost cousin. 04:28:19 Wasted space is an issue when you have a SSD with a total of 1Gb. 04:28:28 What utility is this, D? 04:28:33 xbindkeys 04:28:42 Ah, hence the kicking 04:28:44 The LATE and UNLAMENTED xbindkeys, I should say. 04:29:48 I'm trying to tweak an OLPC XO-1 into a semblance of usefulness. 04:30:57 How the heck did you get an OLPC. 04:31:04 So .. to conclude .. .scm is "still" the way to go, if you feel like using an extension? 04:31:28 Sure, everybody's doing it. 04:31:34 OK, cool. :) 04:33:55 Nice reading btw. I was amazed to learn how easy it is to get from file extension, over magic to md5-collision problems. :) 04:34:20 Yeah, welcome to #scheme 04:35:05 Ending up considering rewriting md5sum in scheme was a nice touch. :) 04:36:16 zbigniew: I traded dirty American dollars for it during last year's G1G1 program. Was really into it for a few months, then lost interest. Decided to give it another try when the recent software refresh moved it onto Fedora 9. 04:36:49 Daemmerung: what about something more radical such as ratpoison? 04:36:50 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 04:37:05 Daemmerung: stumpwm sounds cool, but you need an entire SBCL install to go along with it 04:37:27 Btw. "format" doesn't seem to work for me, I get "undefined variable". Am I using a bad scheme? 04:37:49 which seems ridiculously heavy. I would play around with it, but I moved to OS X in 2002 and my linux box has been frozen on an old version of sawfish ever since 04:38:06 Dabian: format is not standard. Which scheme? 04:38:28 zbigniew: 48, I think. 04:38:55 zbigniew: Is there a way to check? 04:39:18 er, when you start it up, that should be obvious ;) 04:39:25 -!- yagur [n=yyaaa@211.109.158.113] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:40:16 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:40:32 zbigniew: Ahh .. lemme check the start of the buffer [checking ..] "Scheme 48 1.8" 04:40:38 Dabian: try this 04:40:44 ,open formats 04:40:51 (format #f "abc ~a ~a" 'def 123) 04:41:39 Error: undefined variable [NL] format [NL] (package user) 04:41:40 04:42:22 really? and ,open formats doesn't error out? 04:42:40 zbigniew: Oh .. I didn't try that yet. .. 04:42:53 Newly accessible in user: (format) 04:42:53 04:43:10 ahh ... now it says: "abc def 123" 04:43:22 Thank you! 04:45:23 there's an incredibly basic user guide at http://mumble.net/~jar/s48-user-guide.txt 04:45:34 gods I despise the new web 2.0 04:45:52 also, Riastradh wrote a detailed reference manual for 1.3, but killed it after it became too far out of date 04:46:06 "You can send email, start a group, create a discussion forum, and chat online, and all from a website!" 04:46:31 "And all you have to do is make sure we have control over all communication channels you have with any other members. Did we mention the premium service is $15 a month?" 04:46:46 Dabian, FORMAT is in the FORMATS structure. 04:47:01 ...ah, zbigniew already told you. 04:47:05 They call it email when it's just sending HTML forms to the company, and hoping they deliver it. 04:48:46 stumpwm is appealing, but I too was shy about dragging SBCL onto this little thing. Wanted to stay close to the herd (not being familiar with either X or Linux-- pity there's no BSD for it), so I'm using XFCE4. 04:49:07 Riastradh: Thank you anyhow. :) 04:51:58 synx: Am I the only one to wonder what "web 2.0" actually is? 04:52:20 obviously, it is the successor to web 1.9 04:53:04 2.0 SP1a EQF 3 will fix most problems 04:53:17 They'll finally get it right with Web 3.1. 04:54:47 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-61-150-59.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:55:09 -!- Cale [n=Cale@CPE001c10c70239-CM000e5cdd834a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:55:16 Daemmerung: Web 3.11 would be much better, of course. 04:55:39 unfortunately, web 3.11 will not have tcp/ip built in, and will require trumpet winsock to get online 04:55:40 Dabian: it's sort of a useful term I use for the corporatization and centralization of previously fault tolerant network protocols. Happening all the heck over the place. 04:55:51 Like replacing everything with a webpage, which of course comes from a centrally planned server. 04:55:51 HTML5 will reach a W3C recommendation in the year 2022 or later. 04:56:22 http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#When_will_HTML_5_be_finished.3F 04:56:26 I can hardly wait 04:56:31 zbigniew: yes -- that's why it will be better. 04:56:33 i think we gonna wait a loooong time 04:56:36 Just in time for emacs 23! 04:56:56 or ikarus 0.0.5! 04:57:06 Or a stable ironscheme! 04:57:07 *mbishop* runs 04:57:31 (to be honest, I've never used ironscheme, so :P) 04:58:20 So HTML5 will be implemented in 2012, thus causing the harmonic shift that will drive the zombie hoards to slaughter the remaining life then destroy the universe. 04:58:34 Cale [n=Cale@CPE001c10c70239-CM000e5cdd834a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 05:00:32 grettke [n=grettke@CPE-65-31-132-59.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 05:00:34 The DOM is a pretty eye meltingly stupid idea in the first place. It pretty much assures that you can never stream HTML. 05:01:42 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-251-241-233.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 05:08:35 *Daemmerung* wipes a tear at the mention of trumpet winsock 05:09:25 *mbishop* wonders if leppie died from laughter or rage 05:10:18 tjafk1 [n=timj@e176197228.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 05:11:28 Do you guys use Emacs? 05:11:38 Yes. 05:12:02 For business and for pleasure. 05:12:25 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65.78.24.47] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 05:12:28 Or even for psychiatric problems. 05:12:41 What do you find to be the most helpful modes for working with Scheme? I have yet to read about the built in mode, but I will read it. I've read about Paredit and how you can utilize Outline mode. 05:14:19 The built-in mode, suitably augmented for whatever dialect I'm using. Many swear by Quack. 05:14:34 I've yet to figure out what's so curse-worthy of Quack. 05:15:23 -!- dakeyras [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-125-63.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 05:15:32 What do you mean curse-worthy? People curse it?! 05:15:32 It didn't handle sexp comments, and I was unable to extend it to do so in 30 minutes or less (as it's diverged considerably from scheme-mode), so I bailed on it. It did fontify prettily, though. 05:15:50 grettke, I was playing on the phrase `swear by Quack'. 05:16:07 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0B39.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:17:02 Riastradh has been known to use paredit occasionally. 05:17:17 Who told you?? 05:17:27 Um, um, a -- friend?? 05:17:33 *Daemmerung* backtracks hastily 05:17:37 I didn't mean nuthin' by it 05:17:53 Honest, guv'nor. 05:18:33 hadronzoo_ [n=hadronzo@gateway.publicvpn.net] has joined #scheme 05:24:30 nuh* 05:26:13 -!- hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-251-241-233.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 05:26:55 -!- tjafk2 [n=timj@e176195001.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:27:05 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-251-241-233.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 05:29:22 hadronzoo__ [n=hadronzo@gateway.publicvpn.net] has joined #scheme 05:35:08 -!- hadronzoo_ [n=hadronzo@gateway.publicvpn.net] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 05:41:19 -!- grettke [n=grettke@CPE-65-31-132-59.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [] 05:43:32 -!- npe [n=npe@66.112.249.148] has quit [] 05:48:45 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:49:17 -!- hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-251-241-233.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:55:20 peter_12_ [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 06:00:19 mbishop: was getting ready for work :) 06:01:09 :P 06:01:13 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-229-68.dsl.look.ca] has quit [] 06:01:21 2022, nice long deadline :p 06:02:04 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 06:03:26 hopefully R7RS will only be after that ;p 06:05:19 and my LiSP will have arrived .... 06:06:21 off to work :( 06:07:47 MORE WHISTLE 06:10:45 gnomon: tnahc 06:11:37 MORE BACKWARD 06:12:25 It's a pool-foof pran, glomon! 06:12:36 (Uh oh. An n has gone missing.) 06:13:37 MORE N 06:14:40 God, what a day. 06:14:57 I want a do-over. 06:15:25 Or possibly a pint of ice cream and eight hours of bad daytime TV. 06:16:44 *gnomon* finds 150g of leftover vanilla ice cream behind the perogies in the freezer 06:16:47 It'll have to do. 06:17:10 Is your subconscious imagination capable of substituting for the bad daytime television? 06:18:15 (I haven't a clue what daytime television is like, or even nighttime television, or twilight television or twidark television or twipersephone television; hence my question.) 06:19:26 It's best that I don't indulge in flights of fancy right now. They would pretty much all involve quite painful forms of torture applied to several specific and highly deserving individuals. 06:20:22 *gnomon* eats very icy ice cream in stony silence 06:20:27 I was kinda thinking of `sleep', not of `acid-induced murder rampage planning in the darkest room of the house with Blue Oyster Cult playing in the background and the electronics of the house tampered with so that the lamp dangling from the ceiling gets that slightly flickery effect'. 06:20:34 Eight hours of game shows and soap operas will reduce his cortex to a thin but nourishing gruel. 06:22:30 Hey, and there's a leak in the U-bend under the kitchen sink! How utterly perfect! 06:22:39 *gnomon* headdesks 06:23:24 Dear tomorrow, please suck less. 06:24:25 Riastradh, where was the new foof-loop.txt introductory paragraph again? 06:24:46 06:24:54 Thanks kindly. 06:25:09 Do tear it to shreds, please -- as many shreds as it deserves. 06:26:07 Nice, that's much tighter! 06:27:39 `Loop through a list' should be plural, I think. 06:27:43 May I iterate and re-submit for your feedback? 06:27:50 Otherwise `loop' looks too much like a verb. 06:27:53 You may. 06:28:46 Awesome. Is a pastebin too public for your tastes? 06:29:06 *Riastradh* shrugs. 06:29:11 I sha'n't object. Email works, too. 06:29:13 -!- raikov [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:29:44 Email, then! 06:29:52 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 06:30:07 We could try Twitter, though I think both of our sentence styles would cause the poor thing to go into conniptions. 06:30:24 *Riastradh* coughs. 06:30:32 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:34:12 -!- JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182ddad4.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 06:36:20 mikael [n=woha@c-7642e353.027-10-67766c2.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 06:39:57 (Greylisting at mumble.net may hinder the prompt delivery of the message.) 06:43:07 Hm. The first iteration has been sent, anyhow. 06:43:15 And received. 06:43:27 w00 06:43:52 -!- peter_12_ [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:44:45 Not too nit-picky, I hope? 06:45:32 Oops. I forgot to upload some small changes I made. For example, I think that `folded value' sounds better than `result from folding', and makes the sentence more harmoniously parallel. 06:47:39 I decided to avoid the phrase `classification of loops', a phrase which is an artefact from having the classification of finite groups on my mind. 06:48:59 (`Flavours of loops' was a reference I could not resist.) 06:49:52 Nor should you have ;) 06:50:04 I tried to avoid null words such as `such' and `process'. I think that the verbs `CAR' and `CDR' sound livelier. 06:50:51 Hm, I have an idea. 06:51:02 May I grab iteration 2 and leave 3 and up to you? 06:51:18 `Scheme provides named LET and DO to capture' -> `Scheme's named LET and DO capture' 06:51:32 Oops. 06:51:35 Never mind; I see why I didn't do that. 06:51:42 'Scheme names two such flavours named LET and DO...' 06:51:55 Hm, I don't like the repetition of 'name' there. 06:52:26 Meh - s/Scheme names/Scheme calls/ ? 06:52:59 A broader revision: `Scheme provides named LET and DO to capture two {structures of loops, such flavours}, but has no name for...' -> `Scheme's named LET and DO capture two flavours of loops, but Scheme lacks any name for...' 06:53:41 Elide the leading 'Scheme's'? 06:53:46 Remove the composite negative; use fewer verbs, and directly, not infinitively. 06:54:28 I wrote `Scheme's' at the beginning to introduce Scheme into the mix, but I suppose the value of that introduction is lost by the context of the file. 06:54:49 It also allows one to introduce Scheme just a bit later in the sentence. 06:55:08 A dramatic flourish, if you will! 06:56:44 `Named LET and DO capture two flavours of loops, but Scheme lacks any name for the pattern of looping through a list, CARing and CDRing to the end; or of looping through a vector, stepping indices from one bound to another.' Are the participial phrases worth the brevity? 06:57:35 The semicolon at that point could be a comma. 06:58:40 I think I like the semicolon there, actually, but that may just be a personal weakness. 06:58:49 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless153.wireless.utah.edu] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:59:05 I think that terseness in the introduction is well worth the effort. 06:59:19 I hope it is concise, not terse. 07:02:05 elmex [n=elmex@e180067239.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 07:02:22 You consider 'terse' pejorative? 07:02:32 Subtly. 07:03:24 I'd like to have that argument out sometime other than now; let's stay on track. 07:04:45 The only part of the final sentence I wrote that bothers me is the phrase `so that'; substituting `by which' would improve it immensely, I believe. I also wanted to begin and end the sentence on the important notes: `Foof-loop names patterns' and `a unified LOOP macro'. 07:06:02 Ah. 07:07:44 I also like the limit of eight letters on any word in that sentence save for `foof-loop', if that counts. `Unified', `composed', and `macro' are the only Latin words I admitted into the sentence; `unified' for its concision, `composed' for its ubiquity, and `macro' for its technical necessity. 07:08:16 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 07:08:49 The 'by which' substitution definitely removes the impetus for my reworking of it. 07:09:49 In fact, with that substitution, it's far better than my proposal; hastily retracted! 07:10:31 (As I remarked earlier, I needed a break from mechanical mathematical writing, from which `so that' is another artefact.) 07:11:13 I waffled over `there are too many flavours' versus `too many flavours exist'. 07:11:32 -!- kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:12:41 I opted for the phrase without the Latin, philosophical, and mathematical term `exist'. 07:16:18 Ordinarily elegant variation barely catches my interest, but in this paragraph the word `name' occurs four times. I also think that the use of the word `classify' hints mildly at a babellian effort whose fruits are too distant to conceive; its subsequent reuse in `classification' makes me a little queasy, which is why I struck it from the attempt I uploaded. 07:16:57 'Loop flavours fill programs like butterflies in a meadow of wildflowers, too numerous to each be named; but we may classify the most common types, and we name FOOF-LOOP the stalking entomologist with net, notebook and killing jar!' 07:17:26 Here is my current attempt at the second sentence: `There are too many flavours of loops to classify all, but patterns arise which are worth naming.' 07:17:40 sili_ [n=sili@222.127.78.142] has joined #scheme 07:17:48 'are worth' -> 'reward' ? 07:18:03 I can't figure out how to fork(2) with plt. anyone know where it is? 07:18:04 That sounds somewhat clumsy to my ears. 07:18:32 True. It's indirect. 07:19:18 `May wish to name' is too weak; `reward naming' is too strong, I think. 07:19:20 I think I just object to 'patterns arise', as if they coalesce fully formed without intervention from the programmer. 07:19:51 'but some patterns deserve names'? 07:20:36 That makes the patterns the subject of the process of naming, not us. 07:21:46 hmm. is there no fork() in PLT? :( 07:21:51 http://www.cs.brown.edu/pipermail/plt-scheme/2005-September/009674.html 07:22:14 sili_: you can't fork(2), precisely. You can spawn a subprocess or create a separate thread. 07:22:42 jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 07:22:54 `but patterns worth naming arise'? 07:23:03 Riastradh, that's true. How about 'recur' instead of 'arise'? 07:23:09 -!- MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:23:10 what's the difference between process and subprocess? 07:23:50 `Process' is an object; `subprocess' is a relation. 07:24:13 By abuse of language, `subprocess' is used to mean a process related as subprocess to another process. 07:24:33 gnomon, `but patterns worth naming recur'? 07:24:50 I don't see how that fits into PLT 07:24:51 gnomon, or `but patterns recur which are worth naming'? I'm leaning toward that with fewer words. 07:25:08 sili_: it's in the manual. Worth reading as always. 07:25:23 ya, I'm looking at it but don't see the difference 07:25:46 Riastradh, brevity issues aside, that last one sounds most pleasing to me. 07:26:00 The last one being `but patterns recur which are worth naming'? 07:26:57 Suddenly I am discomforted by the overly parallel structure of sentences: There are..., but patterns..... Named LET..., but Scheme.... Procedures such as..., but compose poorly 07:27:30 curious, how come PLT doesn't fork? 07:27:53 fork(2) is a difficult notion. 07:27:53 implementation limitation? 07:28:15 it's also a very Unix-specific notion. 07:28:25 Riastradh, but read it all out: after a sequence of several such parallel sentences, the final declaration of foof-loop's raison d'etre sounds like a triumphant call to arms! 07:29:00 sili_: Why do you want to fork? 07:29:35 eli: I like to think it's more efficient and easier to program 07:30:10 sili_: Rephrase: what's the problem that you're trying to solve by using fork? 07:30:23 It more easily leads efficiently to badly behaving programs. 07:30:31 about the only Scheme that's going to let you fork() dup2() execvpe() etc. explicitly is scsh. 07:30:49 And maybe not even scsh. I've never forked there. 07:31:09 eli: I want multiple instances of my web server 07:31:44 Daemmerung: Actually it's pretty obvious to fork through the foreign interface; but the results are usually bad... 07:31:53 eli: well yeah.... 07:31:55 sili_: Do you want multiple web servers? 07:32:12 Scsh does wrap fork(2) -- but much goes on underneath. 07:32:34 eli: I want multiple processes providing the same service 07:33:10 Yes, `subprocess' in plt is the fork wrapper -- which might be a little thicker than the scsh fork -- up to a point of being possible on Windows. 07:33:33 sili_: What do you mean by the same service? You can't have multiple processes listening on the same port. 07:33:55 eli: no? what does apache do then? 07:34:32 open socket, fork (share resources), win 07:34:34 One can't have multiple sockets bound to the same address. A socket can be shared by multiple processes, however. 07:35:30 sili_, if you really think that description fits Apache's architecture and performance characteristics, I invite you to read its source code and then read some comparative benchmarks - Apache vs. Yaws, perhaps. 07:36:27 (Most unappetizing project name evar.) 07:36:44 gnomon: uh huh. 07:36:55 -!- hadronzoo__ is now known as hadronzoo 07:37:00 is there a way to share a socket? 07:37:28 sili_: Do you have multiple CPUs? 07:37:32 You can pass its file descriptor over a local socket. 07:37:32 yes 07:37:52 gnomon, reload foof-loop-intro.txt. 07:38:11 hmm... that also rasises the question of how to get that out of the plt web server 07:38:36 sili_: So the best solution that you can do in PLT for now is to have a single process listen for TCP connections, 07:39:15 Riastradh, very nice. 07:39:24 sili_: and make this also start several mzscheme subprocesses -- where each will run a web-server that works over their input ports instead of a real network connection, 07:39:42 I am now struck by the exceedingly regular metre of the second sentence and the beginning of the third. 07:39:48 I think you're right that 'patterns worth naming recur' is a bit off-center somehow, but overall I really like how this version flows. 07:39:54 sili_: then make the first process forward the connection to one of the subprocesses, using a pipe. 07:40:03 I see 07:40:35 I am tempted to break it by reintroducing (bother -- several unintended dactyls in a row there) the words `of loops' after `There are too many flavours'. 07:40:58 sili_: In the (possibly near) future there will be mult-cpu support in PLT, but you'll only be able to pass around immutable data between the subprocesses. (That's about everything I know about that project.) 07:41:39 sili_: (multi-cpu in the form of OS threads, not processes.) 07:41:52 I'm a sucker for real processes :( 07:42:22 Well, nobody's perfect... 07:42:39 bah. 07:43:03 What would you expect to get from a process that you won't get from an OS thread? 07:43:33 better support from my hardware and software 07:43:38 ? 07:43:47 ?? 07:44:54 [IIRC, the difference between a different process and a different thread can be awfully blurry...] 07:45:41 gnomon, is the flow you mentioned related to the metre? 07:45:45 Riastradh, what's wrong with a regular metre? The paragraph starts off with a very simple, declarative sentence; the second sentence introduces the inspiration for foof-loop in a short, captivating manner; the third sentence gives two clear and common examples where names would be appropriate; the fourth sentence explains and then deflates two common counter-arguments; and the fifth sentence introduces the name of th 07:46:07 (Truncated at `and the fifth sentence introduces the name of th'.) 07:46:29 ...introduces the name of the solution and its intended purpose, releasing the dramatic tension built up throughout. 07:46:32 What I find wrong with a regular metre (which falls apart in the middle of the third sentence) is that it distracts me. 07:46:42 Ah, that's a valid complaint. 07:47:19 "I don't like how it sounds" carries extra weight when the author says it :) 07:47:42 what are you guys working on? 07:47:45 I wonder whether the word `computer' may be safely excised from the opening sentence. Then there is one fewer word, and every word's stress falls on its first syllable. 07:49:04 gnomon, also, there is even a nearly metrical rhyme at the beginning of the third sentence: `Named LET and DO / [capture] / Two flavours of loo[ps]'. 07:49:48 Well, sure; you could also replace it with "Useful programs loop", but I think an introductory paragraph should first set the reader at ease, then present the idea. 07:51:11 Yes, sure. I like `Every useful [computer] program has loops.', which is concise and strong; `Useful programs loop.' is terse, and, while not weaker, definitely less emphatic. 07:51:44 That is, while it is not semantically weaker, it reads less emphatically. 07:52:42 Also, `Useful programs loop.' fails to introduce `loop' as a noun, and thereby necessitates the reintroduction of `of loops' after `There are too many flavours'. 07:52:50 Right; it's so short that the reader has moved on to the next sentence before the thrust of the idea has a chance to land. 07:53:26 Hmm. `Every computer program has loops.' `Every useful computer program has loops.' `Every useful program has loops.' 07:54:01 Of those three, the last is best. 07:54:16 All useful programs are loopy. 07:55:02 "Useful programs admit the whimsical qualification of looptasticiness!" 07:56:01 Riastradh, I'm afraid my time is up. 07:56:08 Until tomorrow? 07:56:30 Indeed -- my time was up hours ago. 07:56:43 Sleep well, sir. 07:56:50 I hope to, tomorrow night. 07:57:56 pbusser2: what if there is no loop? instead it keeps writing new code it executes later? 07:58:00 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:00:09 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.126] has joined #scheme 08:02:05 Every universally-qualified assertions is provocative. 08:02:26 -s 08:02:28 No it isn't, you mouth-breathing boob! 08:02:53 :) 08:03:19 *gnomon* really goes to bed this time 08:03:41 -!- CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-61-150-59.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:04:30 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-61-150-59.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 08:05:30 gaja [n=Gabriel@c-2791e355.017-40-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 08:12:55 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 08:13:55 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 08:14:32 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 08:14:52 -!- jdev [i=jdev@panix5.panix.com] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:17:57 jdev [i=jdev@panix5.panix.com] has joined #scheme 08:19:27 -!- CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-61-150-59.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:20:32 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:25:47 yagur [n=yyaaa@211.109.158.113] has joined #scheme 08:31:10 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [No route to host] 08:39:23 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 08:45:35 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.126] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:46:15 tessier [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has joined #scheme 08:47:04 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.126] has joined #scheme 08:49:39 -!- sjamaan [n=sjamaan@netbsd/developer/sjamaan] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:49:50 sjamaan [n=sjamaan@frohike-old.xs4all.nl] has joined #scheme 08:51:23 ejs [n=eugen@80.91.178.218] has joined #scheme 09:09:12 -!- ejs [n=eugen@80.91.178.218] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:09:38 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #scheme 09:13:05 -!- hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@gateway.publicvpn.net] has quit [] 09:15:05 -!- elmex [n=elmex@e180067239.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:22:52 -!- synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:35:10 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@3ad50e34.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #scheme 09:55:42 -!- geckosenator [n=sean@c-24-8-193-190.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 09:55:42 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 09:55:42 -!- agemo [n=jovdmeer@igwe16.vub.ac.be] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 09:55:43 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 09:55:43 -!- Leonidas [n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 09:55:43 -!- Adrinael [i=adrinael@rid7.kyla.fi] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 09:55:43 -!- dlouhy [n=jdlouhy@pinball.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 09:55:43 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-146-254-ndn-esr-3.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 09:56:12 geckosenator [n=sean@c-24-8-193-190.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 09:56:12 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 09:56:12 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 09:56:12 leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-146-254-ndn-esr-3.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 09:56:12 Adrinael [i=adrinael@rid7.kyla.fi] has joined #scheme 09:56:12 Leonidas [n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas] has joined #scheme 09:56:12 agemo [n=jovdmeer@igwe16.vub.ac.be] has joined #scheme 09:56:12 dlouhy [n=jdlouhy@pinball.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 09:56:46 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@3ad50e34.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:07:40 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 10:10:37 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:12:46 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #scheme 10:17:16 ^self [i=foobar@203.81.199.229] has joined #scheme 10:17:20 <^self> hi 10:18:46 ^self: jello 10:19:02 is ^ a negation operator, by the way? 10:19:38 or a transcendental operator? 10:19:51 <^self> no. my usual nick is "self", and someone else had it first on freenode, so i use ^self here. 10:20:01 <^self> ^ is "return" in smalltalk 10:20:08 nice 10:20:24 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 10:21:49 -!- rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:33:23 ivarrefsdal [n=ivarrefs@sos1-1x-dhcp451.studby.uio.no] has joined #scheme 10:33:27 -!- geckosenator [n=sean@c-24-8-193-190.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:42:53 kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 10:45:25 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-61-150-59.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 10:52:49 beta-reduction [i=beta-red@213.129.54.27] has joined #scheme 10:56:47 -!- beta-reduction [i=beta-red@213.129.54.27] has quit [Client Quit] 11:03:31 -!- kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 11:09:39 fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-084-059-136-214.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 11:12:01 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 11:16:11 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-177-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 11:18:14 schmalbe [n=bernhard@p549A37F4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 11:25:37 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@3ad50e34.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #scheme 11:27:08 -!- a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 11:35:52 ventonegro [n=user@136.166.1.3] has joined #scheme 11:42:40 rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #scheme 11:50:30 cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has joined #scheme 11:52:00 hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #scheme 11:55:00 kuribas [i=kristof@d54C4305D.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 12:04:37 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-177-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [No route to host] 12:06:24 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@3ad50e34.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:12:22 *foof* plays a belated devil's advocate 12:13:36 If you combine md5sum with length verification, it's hard to forge a message (at least there are no approaches to forming a meaningful message). 12:14:20 If this is only used as a caching step and the contents are then verified, then in the worse case scenario an attack could only be used for DOS. 12:15:34 So if you're using a system that only had md5 bindings (many, since I think the only Scheme-portable crypto hash is md5), then in a new system it might not be that insane to use md5. 12:15:52 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-17-121.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 12:17:27 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-18-69.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 12:17:38 -!- tizoc_ is now known as tizoc 12:18:23 vasa [n=vasa@mm-36-92-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #scheme 12:27:25 a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has joined #scheme 12:27:37 `The only Scheme-portable crypto hash is MD5'?? 12:28:33 borism_ [n=boris@195-50-199-187-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 12:28:45 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-200-2-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:29:41 -!- hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has quit ["leaving"] 12:30:12 benny [n=benny@i577A0478.versanet.de] has joined #scheme 12:32:02 grnman [n=grnman@c-76-110-165-179.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 12:33:26 yeah... that was sloppy... 12:33:27 The only cryptographic hash function I've seen written in portable R5RS Scheme is md5. 12:33:34 bzzbzz [n=franco@modemcable027.191-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 12:33:53 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 12:33:55 So implement another one. 12:34:50 This is hypothetical, you need to get a program done _now_ and need a decent hash function. 12:35:16 Decent? Then you'd definitely better implement another one. 12:35:17 (Personally, I wouldn't use md5 even in that case.) 12:35:38 Or use your FFI to call another one. 12:36:16 Plus almost every system in existence has an 'md5' or 'md5sum' command. It's pretty universally supported. 12:36:49 The latest OS X still doesn't have a 'sha' command. 12:36:55 openssl dgst -sha1 12:38:00 OK 12:38:25 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #scheme 12:45:57 synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has joined #scheme 12:54:09 orgy` [n=ratm_@pD9FFF0C2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 13:20:29 -!- kuribas [i=kristof@d54C4305D.access.telenet.be] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 13:22:05 -!- jdev [i=jdev@panix5.panix.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:22:37 hemulen [n=hemulen@rrcs-24-172-255-227.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has joined #scheme 13:27:38 -!- a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 13:39:47 sili [n=sili@121.97.217.130] has joined #scheme 13:43:46 Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has joined #scheme 13:45:06 annodomini [n=lambda@64.30.3.122] has joined #scheme 13:47:36 annodomini_ [n=lambda@64.30.3.122] has joined #scheme 13:47:36 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:48:59 -!- annodomini_ [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:49:34 mheld [n=mheld@129.10.230.158] has joined #scheme 13:50:39 elf [i=elf@antenora.aculei.net] has joined #scheme 13:52:34 renke [n=renke@Ld59c.l.pppool.de] has joined #scheme 13:58:40 -!- kniu [n=kniu@DA-YU.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:01:01 athos [n=philipp@p54B87233.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 14:01:51 -!- sili_ [n=sili@222.127.78.142] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:08:23 -!- yagur [n=yyaaa@211.109.158.113] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:10:59 sili_ [n=sili@222.127.78.142] has joined #scheme 14:12:00 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-1-13.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 14:16:09 hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD125054017176.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 14:18:35 sili__ [n=sili@222.127.78.142] has joined #scheme 14:25:16 sili___ [n=sili@222.127.78.142] has joined #scheme 14:26:36 how do I get format strings in MIT Scheme? 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16:28:00 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-177-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 16:29:49 bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has joined #scheme 16:32:50 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 16:34:45 -!- hemulen [n=hemulen@rrcs-24-172-255-227.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 16:37:45 r2q2: "match?" 16:38:13 rudybot: (let ((|\|\|| 2)) (+ |\|\|| |\|\||)) 16:38:20 rudybot: eval (let ((|\|\|| 2)) (+ |\|\|| |\|\||)) 16:38:21 foof: error: eval:1:33: read: unbalanced `|' 16:39:14 rudybot: eval (let ((\|\| 2)) (+ \|\| \|\|)) 16:39:14 foof: ; Value: 4 16:40:33 weird 16:40:51 aha 16:41:05 rudybot: eval (let ((|||| 2)) (+ |||| ||||)) 16:41:05 foof: ; Value: 4 16:42:49 Surprise! 2 + 2 == 4! 16:43:09 rudybot: eval (string->symbol "||") 16:43:09 foof: ; Value: \|\| 16:44:58 rubybot eval eval 16:47:09 -!- schmalbe [n=bernhard@p549A37F4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [] 16:48:48 -!- Dabian [n=user@fsf/member/dabian] has left #scheme 16:49:08 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:49:09 Dabian [n=user@fsf/member/dabian] has joined #scheme 16:49:11 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has joined #scheme 16:50:37 kniu [n=kniu@LEMON.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 16:51:37 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 16:52:02 If you allow \ escapes outside of |...|, why disable them inside |...|? 16:55:03 -!- incubot [n=incubot@24.205.65.135] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:11:10 name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #scheme 17:15:51 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 17:16:49 -!- jlongster [n=user@75.148.111.133] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:20:39 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-152-148.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 17:20:54 luz [n=davids@139.82.89.70] has joined #scheme 17:27:35 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B054690.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 17:34:37 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:43:08 ramkrsna_ [n=ramkrsna@nat/redhat-in/x-66a1eecdedf07181] has joined #scheme 17:43:19 -!- orgy` [n=ratm_@pD9FFF0C2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:44:17 -!- ramkrsna_ is now known as ramky 17:44:50 -!- ramky is now known as ramki 17:46:45 Riastradh: hey 17:47:19 Riastradh: i just implemented 1d-table for Scheme48, I was wondering if you'd want to take a look to see if I did anything silly 17:47:41 foof: Thanks 17:57:53 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:58:02 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:04:50 hemulen [n=hemulen@cpe-069-134-114-252.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 18:06:14 renke [n=renke@Ld59c.l.pppool.de] has joined #scheme 18:12:33 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 18:16:03 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 18:19:19 Har! Timed bathroom lighting? That is the very height of indignity! You poor sod. 18:19:28 *gnomon* facepalms 18:23:12 peter_12_ [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 18:26:39 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Operation timed out] 18:28:37 vasa [n=vasa@mm-36-92-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #scheme 18:35:46 aaco [n=aaco@unaffiliated/aaco] has joined #scheme 18:42:36 maybe so, but timed livingroom lighting is great for security 18:42:36 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:42:51 creating a sense that you're home when you aren't 18:44:06 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has quit [No route to host] 18:47:49 -!- elf [i=elf@antenora.aculei.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:50:52 JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182ddad4.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 18:59:45 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-152-148.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 18:59:59 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 19:00:42 -!- renke [n=renke@Ld59c.l.pppool.de] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 19:00:48 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 19:04:17 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 19:06:40 foof, r2q2: it's another chez-ism, probably. 19:08:30 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:10:00 exexex [n=chatzill@85.101.65.126] has joined #scheme 19:11:02 -!- peter_12_ [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:22:25 melito [n=melito@70.99.250.82] has joined #scheme 19:23:04 geckosenator [n=sean@c-24-8-193-190.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:30:48 peter_12_ [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 19:38:50 incubot [n=incubot@24.205.65.135] has joined #scheme 19:41:21 mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 19:45:16 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 19:46:01 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:51:13 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:51:48 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 19:52:48 gigabytes [n=gigabyte@host71-239-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 19:53:48 r2q2` [n=user@c-71-228-37-14.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:54:26 -!- cpfr [n=cf@cpe-76-171-165-212.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:56:06 -!- peter_12_ [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [] 19:59:46 schmalbe [n=bernhard@p549A037E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 19:59:55 jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless358.wireless.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 20:01:02 -!- dirchh [n=user@jimi.Informatik.Uni-Tuebingen.De] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:02:51 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 20:03:38 -!- ramki [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:05:20 cpfr [n=cf@dynamic-131-080.usc.edu] has joined #scheme 20:09:02 -!- r2q2 [n=user@c-71-228-37-14.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:15:21 -!- schmalbe [n=bernhard@p549A037E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:16:42 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless358.wireless.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 20:16:42 -!- kniu [n=kniu@LEMON.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:17:03 -!- mbishop [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:17:41 -!- ivarrefsdal [n=ivarrefs@sos1-1x-dhcp451.studby.uio.no] has quit [] 20:18:23 kniu [n=kniu@LEMON.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 20:19:07 *mejja* feasts on blue cheese and wine 20:22:06 *Riastradh* feasts on blue wine and cheese 20:24:33 jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless358.wireless.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 20:25:08 Riastradh: *that* must make for an interesting morning-after. 20:26:31 r2q2`` [n=user@c-71-228-37-14.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:26:39 orgy` [n=ratm_@pD9FFF0C2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 20:27:01 Moldy wine and alcohol-fermented cheese? Mmmmmm... 20:29:40 Riastradh: Heh. 20:29:47 -!- r2q2`` is now known as r2q2 20:29:59 *Daemmerung* installs his third window manager in as many days 20:30:56 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195-50-199-187-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Client Quit] 20:33:35 wisey7 [n=Steven@host81-159-5-211.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 20:36:04 vincenz_ [n=arli@li23-146.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 20:37:52 langmartin [n=user@75.148.111.133] has joined #scheme 20:40:14 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 20:41:47 -!- r2q2` [n=user@c-71-228-37-14.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:44:05 -!- npe [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:47:11 -!- vincenz [n=arli@li23-146.members.linode.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:47:51 kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 20:49:13 r2q2` [n=user@c-71-228-37-14.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:50:06 Daemmerung: i thought you were on windows, for some reason; can you even swap managers? 20:50:19 eli: || is a chezism? 20:50:33 -!- r2q2 [n=user@c-71-228-37-14.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:51:05 klutometis: am rasslin' with Linux 20:52:05 -!- bzzbzz [n=franco@modemcable027.191-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 20:53:19 Daemmerung: just install ratpoison and be done with it 20:53:42 proq: working on it. 20:54:00 bzzbzz [n=franco@modemcable027.191-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 20:54:19 4.1.x expects a font that doesn't exist on my device. Am installing gcc so I can build a contemporary version. There goes another 15Mb, sigh. 20:55:33 Bill Clementson tried this back in January. I'm having the same problems he had. 20:56:25 How fortunate for me that I have nothing better to do this week. 20:57:19 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:59:00 npe [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has joined #scheme 21:00:21 r2q2`: No, the particular treatment of \-not-having-an-escape-meaning-when-it's-inside-|| is a chez-ism. 21:00:52 How does one write a literal symbol with a vertical bar in its name in Chez? 21:02:27 -!- Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-68-228-157.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:04:22 Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-68-228-157.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #scheme 21:06:19 > 'foo\|bar 21:06:19 foo\|bar 21:06:30 also: > '|foo|\||bar| 21:06:30 foo\|bar 21:06:37 I see. 21:07:04 proq: amen, actually; and screen. 21:07:17 or unicode escape i guess 21:07:52 Riastradh: yes, || are like '' on a typical shell. 21:08:35 r2q2`: BTW, foof earlier used |||| which is still an empty symbol: 21:08:46 rudybot: eval (symbol->string '||||) 21:08:47 eli: ; Value: "" 21:11:02 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:12:59 -!- bzzbzz [n=franco@modemcable027.191-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 21:15:15 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 21:18:07 bzzbzz [n=franco@modemcable027.191-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 21:20:07 -!- wisey7 [n=Steven@host81-159-5-211.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:23:47 -!- kniu [n=kniu@LEMON.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:25:44 foof: I mean test for. I have to strip those out of my output of a function. 21:25:47 -!- r2q2` is now known as r2q2 21:26:48 -!- bsmntbombdood [n=gavin@97-118-122-197.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [] 21:27:41 bsmntbombdood [n=gavin@97-118-122-197.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 21:28:51 kniu [n=kniu@CMU-301252.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 21:35:20 -!- Deformati [n=joe@c-68-62-76-160.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:35:37 Deformati [n=joe@c-68-62-76-160.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:36:10 a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has joined #scheme 21:36:30 -!- exexex [n=chatzill@85.101.65.126] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:41:06 -!- bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has quit [] 21:45:22 -!- luz [n=davids@139.82.89.70] has quit ["Client exiting"] 21:47:56 mbishop [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has joined #scheme 21:58:21 rotty [n=rotty@chello084114192192.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #scheme 22:00:23 -!- gigabytes [n=gigabyte@host71-239-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [] 22:03:32 -!- rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:10:47 -!- ventonegro [n=user@136.166.1.3] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:12:41 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [] 22:28:07 synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has joined #scheme 22:31:09 tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has joined #scheme 22:34:07 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B054690.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:41:44 -!- aaco [n=aaco@unaffiliated/aaco] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:45:00 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:57:56 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 22:59:06 saccade_ [n=saccade@209.6.102.24] has joined #scheme 23:04:25 -!- Cale [n=Cale@CPE001c10c70239-CM000e5cdd834a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:05:46 Kerris4 [n=Kerris4@87-194-3-170.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 23:06:19 -!- aardvarq [i=tgAardva@student3113.student.nau.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:08:47 -!- r2q2 [n=user@c-71-228-37-14.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:11:11 saccade__ [n=saccade@65.78.24.47] has joined #scheme 23:13:46 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-36-92-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 23:18:35 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@209.6.102.24] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:19:09 hemulen_ [n=hemulen@cpe-069-134-114-252.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 23:19:14 -!- hemulen_ [n=hemulen@cpe-069-134-114-252.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:19:16 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 23:20:38 -!- hemulen [n=hemulen@cpe-069-134-114-252.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:24:45 -!- wingo [n=wingo@117.Red-79-150-125.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:28:18 incubot: (with-output-to-file "README" (lambda () (write "all your hd belongeth to us"))) 23:28:18 Error: (open-output-file) can not open file - Permission denied: "README" 23:29:46 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-177-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:30:18 (quote ("this" "is" "a" "list")) 23:30:29 incubot: (quote ("this" "is" "a" "list")) 23:30:30 (this is a list) 23:30:47 incubot: (quote (this is a list)) 23:30:47 (this is a list) 23:30:52 what 23:30:58 I don't get the difference :( 23:31:46 Kerris4: it's the difference between DISPLAY and WRITE, me thinks 23:31:51 thanks for pointing that out 23:31:59 incubot: (write '("list")) 23:31:59 ("list")# 23:32:14 incubot: (display '("list")) 23:32:14 (list)# 23:32:32 i wonder if that should be corrected 23:33:50 rudybot: (display '("list")) 23:34:02 rudybot: eval (display '("list")) 23:34:05 synx: ; stdout: "(list)" 23:34:16 interesting 23:34:18 That's how rudybot does it. 23:34:24 rudybot: eval (write '("list")) 23:34:25 klutometis: ; stdout: "(\"list\")" 23:34:57 # is ugly but correct, isn't it? 23:34:58 rudybot: eval (begin (display '("list")) (+ 2 3)) 23:34:58 synx: ; Value: 5 23:34:58 synx: ; stdout: "(list)" 23:35:07 nice 23:35:34 *klutometis* golf claps unsarcastically 23:35:38 # is correct, but it might be incorrect to put the stdout and the result together. 23:35:53 *synx* attempts similar impossible feats 23:35:55 good point 23:36:19 if not incorrect, at least ambiguous/confusing 23:36:30 -!- saccade__ [n=saccade@65.78.24.47] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:37:13 i understand now why offby1 refrained from adding tricks to rudybot, and instead focused on the REPL 23:37:21 that ostensible simple feat is complex 23:37:24 ostensibly* 23:37:33 -!- langmartin [n=user@75.148.111.133] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:37:59 saccade_ [n=saccade@65.78.24.47] has joined #scheme 23:39:01 incubot: that makes you a zero trick pony, by the way 23:39:04 And a pony! 23:41:26 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:45:21 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:46:01 set2 [n=seth@76-191-139-155.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #scheme 23:46:12 *klutometis* depends on bots for perfect authentic cadences where conversation leaves him on an unresolved dominant 23:53:38 -!- orgy` [n=ratm_@pD9FFF0C2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:55:16 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65.78.24.47] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]