00:00:01 How technical was your boss? Did he understand what you were doing? 00:07:57 anyone know where i could find an example of a good scheme stack function 00:08:36 bcow, stack? 00:08:45 bcow, as in filo? 00:08:57 synx: did you estimate a length of 8 times what you thought, so that when it only came in 3 times over, you would be regarded as a hero? 00:09:01 Mmm.... phyllo. 00:09:12 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:09:29 arcfide yes 00:09:56 bcow: What properties do you care about? 00:10:04 bcow: What's wrong with a List? 00:11:00 vorpal_ [n=rhunter@ip24-255-31-98.tc.ph.cox.net] has joined #scheme 00:11:01 i dunno i just need a structure to push/pop with 00:11:08 -!- vorpal_ [n=rhunter@ip24-255-31-98.tc.ph.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:11:18 bcow: Do you care about memory layout or anything? 00:11:33 bcow: If not, then why not just use a LIST? 00:12:03 Adrinael [n=adrinael@2001:14b8:1fe:0:0:0:0:1] has joined #scheme 00:12:11 You had some code that you had lifted from a textbook. Why are you replacing it? 00:13:43 dunno someone in here said i shouldn't use that code, and it don't really understand how to use it either 00:14:22 It's true that you shouldn't use code that you don't understand. You might do well by studying that code, though. 00:14:37 sometimes you dont have a choice :) 00:14:44 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@2001:14b8:1fe:0:0:0:0:1] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:18:59 wow, Jonathan Shapiro is still poking along at BitC 00:19:15 DOCTOR J. Shapiro, offby1. Please. 00:19:21 yeah yeah 00:20:09 My alarm bells start ringing every time I see such copious use of the "Ph.D" suffix in naming oneself. 00:20:42 I let that guy get my hopes up years ago 00:20:47 EROS sounded _so cool_ 00:21:09 -!- dakeyras [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-125-63.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 00:21:09 Oh,is he the eros/coyote guy? I missed that detail. 00:21:24 yep 00:21:28 *Daemmerung* snorts 00:21:32 BitC is in service to it. 00:22:05 Last I checked -- couple years ago -- his operating system project was on hold because they had to -- get this -- write their own revision control system 00:22:06 :-( 00:22:11 bcow, what exactly do you want your stack to do? 00:22:11 Hee. 00:22:22 I want mine to absorb both butter and syrup. 00:22:30 bcow, note that I understand what a stack does. I'm asking what *exactly* you're going to do with it. 00:22:31 And then yield it back up when I eat it. 00:22:32 Yum. 00:22:46 Mmmm. 00:22:50 offby1, that's a brilliant idea. 00:22:53 I know 00:22:56 I think I must go hunt down some food. 00:22:56 I got it from the Web 00:22:58 Adrinael [i=adrinael@rid7.kyla.fi] has joined #scheme 00:23:15 Oh, really? The web, eh? I don't know about that. I've heard that there are rumours out there on the internets. 00:23:57 http://flickr.com/photos/matthewa/300264378/ 00:24:00 now we talkin' 00:24:10 Gotta go play hunter-gatherer, too. There are roots to chop and tough lumps of sinew to pound. 00:24:12 Push and pop stuff onto and off of it, of course. 00:24:31 *Daemmerung* grabs a bone spear and leaves 00:27:06 I can guess at your intent with the spear, but I really don't want to know why you're taking those leaves. 00:27:28 to cover up his nekkidness, duh. 00:27:57 I was going to say that the spear was for stabbing people that laughed at said nekkidness. 00:28:07 You only need one or t'other, Daemmerung! 00:28:47 -!- kniu [n=kniu@LEMON.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:29:47 offby1, their own revision control system? 00:29:50 gnomon the purpose of the entire project is to turn infix expressions into postfix expressions and evaluate them, so i want to push/pop tokens from the input infix expressions onto a stack acording to an algorithum to convert and evaluate them 00:29:50 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 00:30:47 Riastradh: that's what I seem to recall. Was supposed to be all encrypted 'n' s***. 00:31:22 bcow, are you familiar with how CAR and CDR operate? 00:32:35 car returns left part of a list, cdr the right part ? 00:33:40 I can't find anything on coyotos.org about a revision control system, from a cursory scan... They appear to be using Mercurial. 00:34:08 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:34:29 a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has joined #scheme 00:34:49 Hello guys. 00:35:11 bcow, that's more or less correct. Are you familiar with what CONS does? 00:37:57 cons inserts a list into the first pos of another list ? 00:38:58 Close - it constructs a pair from two data. If the second datum is a list, then the first item ends up in the car position of the list that is returned by CONS. 00:39:14 Close enough for horseshoes and hand grenades, anyhow. 00:39:26 Are you familiar with the NULL? procedure? 00:39:52 no, i assumes it checks for a null value though ? 00:40:17 It checks whether the provided datum is the empty list. 00:40:55 So, CAR gives you the head of a list; CDR gives you everything but the head of a list; CONS tacks an item onto the head of a list; and EMPTY? checks whether a list is empty. 00:41:07 Do those operations sound familiar at all? 00:41:13 EMPTY? ? 00:41:15 ah ya 00:41:20 NULL?, sorry. 00:41:23 Frain bart. 00:41:23 r5rs empty? 00:41:24 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for empty?. 00:41:52 r6rs obsolete? 00:41:57 So whaddya think, bcow? 00:44:17 ya with cdr car and cons i can get the functionality of a stack 00:44:19 lisppaste: url 00:44:19 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste. 00:44:28 thx gnomon 00:45:15 bcow, quite welcome. Keep in mind that I've only shown you what to use, not how to use it; there are subtleties that you'll discover when you start writing your test code. 00:45:27 klutometis pasted "your father's stack" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69983 00:46:00 bcow: Your father wanted you to have this stack when you were old enough, but your uncle wouldn't allow it. 00:46:34 drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 00:46:55 I don't get it... 00:47:07 cool thanks klutometis 00:47:27 j/k man; i don't know if it will be very useful 00:47:38 it requires srfis, and it's more complicated than it needs to be 00:47:48 probably a list would suffice 00:48:15 but it serves for CLRS 00:48:36 Ew, mutation? 00:48:56 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 00:49:06 That stack will grow extra limbs and a third set of nostrils if it doesn't get garbage collected in a few generations. 00:49:09 yeah; thanks to cormen leiserson rivest stein 00:49:10 Nobody likes a mutated stacj. 00:49:15 -1s/j/k/ 00:49:41 i gave up trying to reform CLRS along time ago, and had to submit to the dark side of mutation 00:49:55 *gnomon* moves away from klutometis on the bench, there 00:49:55 s/along/a long/ 00:50:44 has anyone done a functional version of CLRS to go along with Okasaki's data structures book? 00:51:04 that would be great, actually 00:51:21 That would also be an immense undertaking. 00:51:30 yeah 00:51:34 clrs? 00:51:45 and someone S-M-R-T-E-R than me would have to do it 00:51:58 elf: Introduction To Algorithms 00:52:03 elf: the mobile book 00:52:06 clrs, such as rd, grn and blu 00:52:10 oh, the cormen book? 00:52:18 theres four authors now? 00:52:25 Cormen, Leiserson, Rivest, and Stein 00:52:32 a good basic successor to Knuth if you don't like reading fictional assembler 00:52:37 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 00:52:41 oh, how i hate that book 00:52:48 which, cormen or knuth? 00:52:49 why? 00:52:49 when i started CLRS, i succeeded in "functionalizing" their algorithms; but i found that the space complexity rose considerably 00:52:53 maybe i wasn't being careful 00:53:10 klutometis: most of cormen functionalises fairly nicely, with a little thought. 00:53:24 drdo`` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 00:53:34 i'm sure it does; but try functional fibonacci heaps, or longest common subsequence 00:53:43 actually: LCS is trivial if you use memoization 00:53:47 lcs is easy. 00:53:52 ive not tried a fib heap. 00:54:29 all, try a functional radix sort 00:54:49 or bucket sort, for that matter 00:54:58 it seems like the space complexity increases there 00:55:03 i wrote disjoint sets with snapping and merging (or whatever term they used) though. 00:55:19 bucket sort is the O(n) integer sort? 00:55:25 nice; also: how would you do a functional hash table without mutation under the hood? 00:55:28 elf: yeah 00:55:33 bucket sort isnt hard. 00:55:41 dakeyras [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-125-63.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 00:55:55 Riastradh's fond of saying that algorithms can have a mutational core, but expose functional semantics. 00:55:57 You don't, klutometis, without the introduction of a logarithmic factor. 00:56:02 That's what I've devolved to. 00:56:10 -!- dakeyras [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-125-63.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:56:37 *elf* ponders. 00:56:58 *gnomon* notes that klutometis has both mutated and devolved 00:57:13 J'ACCUSE 00:57:35 are any data structures possible to do without any form of mutation, except if all local env is being passed around at each call? 00:57:36 j'adore 00:57:42 *elf* sends gnomon to devil's island. 00:57:59 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:57:59 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:57:59 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:57:59 -!- z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:57:59 -!- gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:57:59 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:57:59 -!- CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-61-150-59.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:57:59 -!- Mr_Awesome [n=eric@pool-98-115-33-237.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:57:59 -!- tjafk2 [n=timj@e176200030.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:57:59 -!- Cale [n=Cale@CPE001c10c70239-CM000e5cdd834a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:57:59 -!- brianf [n=brian@external-asa-hq-bllvwa.corp.strata8.net] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:57:59 -!- michaelw [i=michaelw@lambda.foldr.org] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:57:59 -!- dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:57:59 -!- aquanaut` [n=user@pool-71-191-49-201.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:57:59 -!- Wardje [n=Ward@67.202.80.55] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:58:23 gnomon: it's as if i've been living in springfield for too long, next to burns' waste water, and have become a fish with three eyes 00:59:01 *gnomon* nicknames klutometis "Blinky" 00:59:07 And hey, while I'm at it... 00:59:14 *elf* cant swallow the story. 00:59:23 What about Inky? 00:59:36 -!- drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:59:38 And Clyde? 00:59:41 *gnomon* dubs offby1 "Inky", elf "Pinky", and bcow "Clyde" 00:59:49 ... 00:59:53 *elf* ponders the brain. 00:59:58 Pinky? Not Blinky? 00:59:59 *gnomon* dubs eli "Drinky" 01:00:24 Good gracious, you're right. I got the names wrong. 01:00:43 *zbigniew* reaches the kill screen 01:00:45 stinky. 01:00:48 Oh, well. Too late to fix the past now; we've come so far. 01:03:10 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 01:03:10 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 01:03:10 rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 01:03:10 z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #scheme 01:03:10 gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has joined #scheme 01:03:10 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 01:03:10 Mr_Awesome [n=eric@pool-98-115-33-237.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 01:03:10 tjafk2 [n=timj@e176200030.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 01:03:10 brianf [n=brian@external-asa-hq-bllvwa.corp.strata8.net] has joined #scheme 01:03:10 aquanaut` [n=user@pool-71-191-49-201.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 01:03:10 michaelw [i=michaelw@lambda.foldr.org] has joined #scheme 01:03:10 dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has joined #scheme 01:03:10 Wardje [n=Ward@67.202.80.55] has joined #scheme 01:03:13 -!- z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:03:13 z0d [n=z0d@artifact.hu] has joined #scheme 01:03:20 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:03:20 *gnomon* kneels 01:03:37 whats this coyotos thing? 01:03:49 oh, i ran into this ages ago. 01:03:56 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:03:57 It's a provably secure realtime operating system with orthogonal persistence. 01:04:06 *elf* raises an eyebrow. 01:04:25 No, it *wants* to be. 01:04:32 define 'provably secure' in this context? is it based on rees' paper? 01:05:00 Hey, do you ask a parrot to explain the etymology of "cracker"? 01:05:10 well said, sir. 01:05:20 poly want an unsaturated fat. 01:06:41 *Daemmerung* dubs gnomon "Stinky" 01:07:17 schumaml [i=58426c2b@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-ae7ce6a2deb0b758] has joined #scheme 01:07:46 zbigniew: When you are working on a procedure and your boss says "When will this procedure come to a halt?" you find yourself in a rather unique quandary... 01:07:57 I wonder how far he would have gotten if he just hacked up a custom dialect of ML or Haskell and leveraged their existing compilers 01:08:55 BitC is a really nice idea, but it's going to be slow going if you don't have really excellent compiler people to optimize it. 01:09:03 synx: just write a procedure for him that determines when and whether your procedure will halt 01:09:17 Or you say, "Sir, that's a problem." 01:09:27 zbigniew: I'll get right on that. 01:13:54 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-137-202-0.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:14:45 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-61-150-59.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:15:24 arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-137-203-194.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 01:18:14 hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #scheme 01:41:21 -!- a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 01:50:12 -!- exexex [n=chatzill@88.235.26.50] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:56:53 -!- JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182ddad4.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 02:05:14 neato, I can translate fibonacci in ruby into scheme and execute it 02:05:31 (I mean automatic translation, not by hand) 02:08:43 -!- CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-61-150-59.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:08:43 -!- z0d [n=z0d@artifact.hu] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:08:43 -!- brianf [n=brian@external-asa-hq-bllvwa.corp.strata8.net] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:08:43 -!- gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:08:43 -!- michaelw [i=michaelw@lambda.foldr.org] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:08:43 -!- tjafk2 [n=timj@e176200030.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:08:43 -!- dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:08:43 -!- aquanaut` [n=user@pool-71-191-49-201.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:08:43 -!- Wardje [n=Ward@67.202.80.55] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:08:43 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:08:43 -!- Mr_Awesome [n=eric@pool-98-115-33-237.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:08:43 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:09:29 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-61-150-59.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:09:29 z0d [n=z0d@artifact.hu] has joined #scheme 02:09:29 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 02:09:29 gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has joined #scheme 02:09:29 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 02:09:29 Mr_Awesome [n=eric@pool-98-115-33-237.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 02:09:29 tjafk2 [n=timj@e176200030.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 02:09:29 brianf [n=brian@external-asa-hq-bllvwa.corp.strata8.net] has joined #scheme 02:09:29 aquanaut` [n=user@pool-71-191-49-201.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 02:09:29 michaelw [i=michaelw@lambda.foldr.org] has joined #scheme 02:09:29 dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has joined #scheme 02:09:29 Wardje [n=Ward@67.202.80.55] has joined #scheme 02:12:24 Hey! 02:12:29 *gnomon* smacks Daemmerung upside the haid 02:12:37 jonrafkind, oho? Got a link? 02:12:50 now make it a polyglot 02:12:53 hm, well you can check the source out of svn if you want 02:13:04 i can post screenshots of it running in drscheme later on 02:13:18 you want svn? 02:15:37 -!- CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-61-150-59.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:15:37 rotty [n=user@chello084114192192.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #scheme 02:16:21 when using combinators for formatting (to) text, how does one handle translations? 02:19:38 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:23:14 -!- hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has left #scheme 02:23:34 gnomon: my most grievous error, sir-- I mistakenly crossed the "l." I meant to dub thee "Slinky." 02:24:21 It's fun, it's a wonderful toy 02:25:08 emma_ [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 02:25:10 rotty, what kind of translation? 02:25:14 Daemmerung, heh ;) 02:25:33 jonrafkind, read-only svn? 02:25:42 yea 02:25:49 Cale [n=Cale@CPE001c10c70239-CM000e5cdd834a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 02:26:51 If you please, I would be intrigued! 02:27:03 there's only room in here for one slinky 02:27:27 ok check out svn://crystalis.cs.utah.edu/scheme/ruby and svn://crystalis.cs.utah.edu/scheme/peg 02:27:36 copy peg/peg.ss to ruby/. 02:27:51 then when you are in the ruby directory, export PLTCOLLECTS=$PLTCOLLECTS:`pwd`/.. 02:28:05 $ mzscheme tests/passing/mine/fib.rb 02:28:25 and you need mzscheme 4.0 or greater 02:30:56 replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 02:32:00 -!- emma_ [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:32:45 tizoc [n=user@r190-135-14-246.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 02:34:20 -!- drdo`` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:35:47 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:36:51 Cale_ [n=Cale@CPE001c10c70239-CM000e5cdd834a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 02:37:27 -!- vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has quit ["The incensed priests...continued to raise their voices, vituperating each other in bad Latin"] 02:37:28 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-60.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 02:38:31 -!- Cale [n=Cale@CPE001c10c70239-CM000e5cdd834a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 02:38:33 -!- Cale_ is now known as Cale 02:42:43 gnomon: language translation, e.g. (with format-style templates): "Hello, ~A~%" -> "Hallo, ~A~%" 02:43:08 -!- schumaml [i=58426c2b@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-ae7ce6a2deb0b758] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 02:43:11 using something gettext-like, you'd have this in your code: 02:43:47 (define (greet user) (format #t "Hello, ~A~%" user)) 02:44:19 oops, with gettext: 02:44:22 rotty, replace the GREET procedure, not the format string. 02:45:07 hmm, that might make just sense :-) 02:45:23 It is much more flexible, too. 02:45:27 I think I can see where rotty is going. If using combinators means that localization would involve changing code instead of some datum, then combinators are inherently broken for intl. 02:46:00 That's ridiculous. 02:46:17 but as Daemmerung noted, you can't really expect translators to write replacement procedures 02:46:31 Where do you draw the line between `code' and `datum'? 02:46:53 rotty, that depends on how elaborate the messages are. 02:47:13 but ototh, the procedures would be pretty simple 02:47:15 Do you expect, say, plurals? That might be very non-trivial. 02:47:40 Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-212-176.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:48:25 If all you expect is string substitution, then where are combinators involved? 02:48:42 -!- tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-54-87.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:50:10 The way gettext does it is they have a hash table, that takes the sentence in the programmer's language, and the target language, as the key, and returns the sentence in the target language. 02:50:33 It only works for strings though. Not sure if you'd want to "translate" the code itself. 02:50:33 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:51:36 (define (greet user) (format #t (gettext "Hello, ~A~%") user)) 02:51:47 and it draws teh dest language from an environment variable. 02:52:02 -!- brianf [n=brian@external-asa-hq-bllvwa.corp.strata8.net] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:52:02 -!- gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:52:02 -!- michaelw [i=michaelw@lambda.foldr.org] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:52:02 -!- tjafk2 [n=timj@e176200030.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:52:02 -!- dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:52:02 -!- aquanaut` [n=user@pool-71-191-49-201.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:52:02 -!- Wardje [n=Ward@67.202.80.55] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:52:02 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:52:02 -!- Mr_Awesome [n=eric@pool-98-115-33-237.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:52:02 -!- z0d [n=z0d@artifact.hu] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:52:02 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:52:42 Does anyone know how to get OS X to actually use NTP servers? 02:52:54 There's a setting for it, which it seems to completely ignore :/ 02:52:56 foof, works for me. Is your clock more than five minutes or so off? 02:53:00 Of course you could pass "GENERICHELLO" and have it translate to "Hello, ~A~%" in English. The key is kind of arbitrary... 02:53:07 test 02:53:18 Riastradh: It's 4 minutes off. 02:53:33 foof, try setting the time manually to something closer to correct. 02:53:39 Riastradh: given (format #t (gettext "Hello, ~A, how are you?") user), how would you write that with combinators? 02:53:42 the cow says moo 02:53:59 I don't know what combinators are. 02:54:11 http://synthcode.com/scheme/fmt/ 02:54:13 rotty, or, natural language issues aside, do you expect translators to get the printf(3) directives for specific external representations of real numbers, or list-processing and tabular FORMAT directives? 02:54:20 z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #scheme 02:54:51 -!- z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Killed by ballard.freenode.net (Nick collision)] 02:54:59 crypto_ [n=z0d@artifact.hu] has joined #scheme 02:55:05 translators might have to do that, because in their language the name goes before the "hello" in the traditional greeting. 02:55:08 rotty, you are making a needless distinction bewteen `combinators' and `control string' formatting here. What you want (I suspect) is string substitution, and no more. It happens to be that this can be done clumsily by control string formatting. 02:55:21 Riastradh: It actually ignores my changes o_O 02:55:40 -!- foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:56:15 I think the goal is to require an absolute minimum of what the translators have to understand about the program. You could also go (define (greet user) (format #t "~a, ~A~%" (gettext "Hello") user)), but the grammar might be screwy... Japanese doesn't even use Latin commas. 02:56:33 z0d [n=z0d@artifact.hu] has joined #scheme 02:56:33 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 02:56:33 gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has joined #scheme 02:56:33 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 02:56:33 Mr_Awesome [n=eric@pool-98-115-33-237.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 02:56:33 tjafk2 [n=timj@e176200030.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 02:56:33 brianf [n=brian@external-asa-hq-bllvwa.corp.strata8.net] has joined #scheme 02:56:33 aquanaut` [n=user@pool-71-191-49-201.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 02:56:33 michaelw [i=michaelw@lambda.foldr.org] has joined #scheme 02:56:33 dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has joined #scheme 02:56:33 Wardje [n=Ward@67.202.80.55] has joined #scheme 02:56:33 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-137-203-194.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:56:35 -!- z0d [n=z0d@artifact.hu] has quit [Broken pipe] 02:57:02 Heck Arabic is written right to left, if you want screw-with-my-head format strings. 02:57:05 foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 02:57:19 Heh, ERC didn't seem to like the time change... 02:57:25 rotty, suppose your message has eight different parts (all strings). Do you expect your translators to write "Foo, ~3@*~A. Bar baz ~4@*~A..."? 02:57:32 I'd just put the whole format string into translation and tell the translators to suck it up. 02:57:46 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 02:57:46 OK, it's now 1 minute off and not adjusting. 02:57:57 foof, the cutoff may be thirty seconds. I can't recall. 02:58:07 Riastradh: Why would you use an evil format string like that in the first place ;_; 02:58:15 WTF?! 02:58:19 That's _insane_. 02:58:31 synx, because the original one was just "Mumble mumble ~A grumble ~A ~A ~A ~A fnord ~A.", and in the other language the parts go in another order. 02:58:36 arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-137-201-136.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 02:58:47 format strings are especially insane in perl, because you can get code evaluated in 'em... 02:58:59 When you tell it to switch from manual to the time servers, it should automatically sync to the time servers, whatever your current time is. 02:59:14 Riastradh: Oh okay, gotcha. I have no idea. 02:59:27 ... assuming the protocol doesn't work at all if the time is already too far off, which I think is also stupid to begin with. 02:59:52 foof, well, that last part is standard practice. 02:59:55 Not OS X's fault. 03:00:08 It's not 30 seconds. 03:00:20 NetBSD's NTP daemon has a cutoff of one thousand seconds. 03:00:28 I've used NTP on many Linux and Solaris boxes without needing that fine granularity. 03:01:00 Riastradh: format strings are not good when the order isn't fixed, I agree, but something like that might work better: 03:01:53 (my-fmt #t "{user} has got {num} coin of gold" user num) 03:02:18 my-fmt would have to be a macro in that case 03:02:51 or, more elaborate, without having to be a macro: 03:03:06 (localize-message greeting-message `((person ,the-person))) 03:03:14 (my-fmt #t "{user} has got {num} coin of gold" `((user ,user) ((num ,n)))) 03:03:31 arthurmaciel [n=arthurma@201.80.131.18] has joined #scheme 03:03:35 hi 03:05:42 how can I convert "bee" into 'bee? 03:06:06 string->symbol 03:06:08 specbot: r5rs string->symbol 03:06:08 http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_idx_446 03:06:09 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/6m58xq 03:06:18 (define (bee-into-bee bee) ''bee) (bee-into-bee "bee") ;Value: 'bee 03:06:22 Or: (list 'quote (string-downcase (string->symbol "bee"))) 03:06:36 Oops. 03:06:39 Sorry. 03:07:00 Riastradh: I was going to say... 03:07:22 (list 'quote (string->symbol ((if (char-upper-case? (string-ref (symbol->string 'x))) string-upcase string-downcase) "bee"))) 03:07:49 Riastradh: You've been in a strange mood of late, with all these obvious solutions to simple questions. 03:07:51 That should do it, I think, if I have made no errors with my parentheses. 03:08:25 gnomon, if you tried svn it probabily failed before. use username=anon and pass=anon 03:08:48 in fact I�m using this string "bee" to be the key on an assoc call on an association list 03:08:57 (assoc 'bee alist) 03:09:07 (assoc var alist) --> var is in string format 03:09:33 When you say `is in string format', do you perhaps mean `is a string'? 03:09:48 yes, Riastradh, sorry 03:09:58 rudybot: eval (equal? "bee" "bee") 03:09:59 arcfide: ; Value: #t 03:10:15 rudybot: eval (equal? "bee" 'bee) 03:10:15 arthurmaciel: ; Value: #f 03:10:25 rudybot: eval (assoc "bee" '(("bird" foo) ("bee" bar))) 03:10:25 Riastradh: ; Value: ("bee" bar) 03:10:30 arthurmaciel: It may not be the best thin in the world, but sometimes it makes sense to use a string key in your assoc lists. 03:10:49 arthurmaciel, perhaps you have a more general problem to which you are trying to find a solution. 03:11:29 Riastradh, yes I do... but it is late here and I�ll just try to quickly fix this problem. Maybe tomorrow I can present you the monster... :) 03:11:29 .oO(I should make a Riastradh bot...) 03:11:32 a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has joined #scheme 03:12:01 arcfide, it really seems that making the string as a key is a better thing now. 03:12:20 (although I thought alists used quoted keys) 03:13:14 arthurmaciel, the keys of alists need not be surrounded in (QUOTE ...)! The list in my example has every right to be given the name `alist', and certainly none of its keys had (QUOTE ...) about them. 03:13:22 I could have used symbols, rather than strings, and the same would still hold: 03:13:35 rudybot: eval (assoc "bee" '((bird foo) (bee bar))) 03:13:35 Riastradh: ; Value: #f 03:13:53 er... 03:14:20 In fact, nowhere in this program does it use the symbol QUOTE. (The program is written with the symbol QUOTE, but that object doesn't arise in the evaluation of the program.) 03:15:09 -!- a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has quit [Client Quit] 03:16:19 ok. thanks 03:17:46 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-137-201-136.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:17:53 arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-137-200-144.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 03:17:58 Bah, stinkin' internet. 03:18:05 Anyone here care to test my AnonCVS server for me? 03:18:26 a new CVS server? Wow, even *I'm* not that conservative :-) 03:18:35 Hehehe. 03:18:43 you wrote a cvs server in lisp/scheme ? 03:18:46 Can you remind me again why you're doing this? 03:18:48 Non no! 03:18:59 I'm using existing stuff right now. 03:19:03 LOL 03:19:16 and you're using cvs over svn because.. 03:19:19 Riastradh: I felt like it. 03:19:24 jonrafkind: ^^ 03:19:37 you should set up an RCS server 03:19:57 jonrafkind: CVS will do just fine, though that's an okay idea. ;-) 03:20:28 I'm serious, arcfide -- why are you wasting valuable brain cycles on this? 03:20:29 Well, right now, I want some people to be able to access it, but I am unable to duplicate their errors on my systems, and even on systems that they are using (though under different logins). 03:20:49 Riastradh: Well, so far not too many have been wasted, and things work fine. 03:21:09 Honestly, I just felt like it. 03:21:27 Don't ask me to make logical sense out of it. 03:21:33 Call it a whim. 03:21:41 Call me silly. 03:21:42 :-) 03:21:54 Why am I using Nvi to edit Scheme source? 03:22:01 *arcfide* shrugs. 03:22:12 Aiee. 03:22:17 And it's not like it causes me pain. 03:22:26 Why are you using NCSA Mosaic to browse the web? 03:22:26 CVS suits my current needs just fine. 03:22:36 Why are you using fvwm1? 03:22:37 chandler: Actually, I do have a gopher server setup. 03:22:48 chandler: and I'm using cwm, which is kind of leaner. 03:22:59 Oh, and ircII. 03:23:12 and mail(1) is my mail client. 03:23:28 Have I established myself firmly enough yet, into the realm of crazy and silly fools? 03:23:56 no rcs 03:24:08 But, my, you all really hate CVS. :-P 03:24:14 that would clinch it 03:24:18 yes we do 03:24:28 overly long command lines to do anything 03:24:47 I don't hate CVS. I just like invoking the RCS commands myself. 03:24:52 arcfide, you have established yourself firmly in the realm of unreasonable archaism for no sake other than its own. 03:25:13 arcfide: just get an Amiga and a Classic Mac and be done with it 03:25:24 *arcfide* chuckles. 03:25:52 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195-50-200-2-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:25:54 ok, a PDP-11 03:26:00 whatever you consider "classic" 03:26:32 It took mental effort for you to decide to use ircII, for example, and all that ircII excels at is being archaic cruft. 03:26:54 Convenience is clearly not relevant here. 03:27:20 vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has joined #scheme 03:27:21 Alan Kay and his Dynabook got research funding to correct your sins, arcfide 03:28:09 I will readily confess to the use of RCS for my dot files. But I don't use the cryptic RCS commands, except for `mkdir RCS'; the reason I use RCS is so that I can have a commented history of the dot files when I type `C-x v l' in Emacs. 03:29:00 Adamant: Sorry, who is Alan Kay? 03:29:11 *Riastradh* picks his jaw up off the floor. 03:29:14 arcfide: Smalltalk creator? 03:29:21 Adamant: Oh, right. :-) 03:29:24 Sorry. 03:29:29 *Cough*. 03:29:31 ah, brain fart 03:29:35 we all get them 03:29:48 Well, I'm not good with authors of languages. 03:29:52 ah 03:29:55 I forget the Scheme authors at times too. 03:30:22 I imagine, arcfide, that the names Ken Thompson, Brian Kernighan, and Dennis Ritchie, ring louder bells in your head, for no reason worth stating. 03:30:24 And, well, I don't deny that sometimes I like archaism just because. 03:30:54 Eh, Kernighan and Ritchie do, but I couldn't have spelled their names if you hadn't done so before me. 03:31:37 When I feel like messing with old stuff, it is with things like this: http://www.unlambda.com/cadr/ 03:31:40 It's not merely archaism -- it's crufty, badly engineered archaism in the face of merit. 03:32:02 just remember the Perl creator loves Jesus and cryptic syntax, the Python creator likes cigars, gold braid, and badly imitating Haskell, and the Ruby creator likes Scheme but thought it should be in RPN to match Japanese language evaluation order 03:32:13 It is attempted floutation of merit. 03:32:18 kraant [n=kraant@CPE-58-161-128-2.nsw.bigpond.net.au] has joined #scheme 03:32:51 Adamant: He should love Factor, then! 03:33:00 (Matz, that is.) 03:33:17 I need to check out Factor. I watched the Google Talk on and off 03:33:38 if you want to learn stack-based languages is it better to go to the source with Forth, or go updated with Factor? 03:33:50 Forth is fun 03:33:58 There are a lot of implementations 03:34:00 Adamant: er, it depends what you're trying to do. 03:34:14 If you wanna just dip your toes go with forth 03:34:19 You'd probably get a lot more out of Factor, since it is dynamically typed and garbaged collected. 03:34:29 er, "garbage" 03:34:37 yeah 03:34:50 I just want to understand the stack-based paradigm basically 03:35:08 If that's all you want, get a HP 50G. 03:35:21 Adamant, do you have a PPC mac or a sparc lying around? 03:35:36 I have a HP49 but I stuck it in algebraic mode 03:35:45 Well, go fix that. 03:35:47 50G? Is that a new world or old world HP calculator? 03:35:53 Adamant: That's wrong. 03:35:57 not a 48G series 03:36:13 Riastradh: I'm not sure what you mean by "new world". It's an ARM-based calculator running a Saturn emulator. 03:36:20 it's the 49 with better processors and better case IIRC 03:36:24 chandler, whether it was before or after the collapse of their calculator division. 03:36:33 after 03:36:37 OK. 03:36:49 it was designed by their calculator guys, just outsourced to them 03:36:49 Riastradh: New world, but supposedly they've finally started making decent machines again. 03:36:50 IIRC 03:37:04 *kraant* perks up 03:37:06 Most of the complaints about the 49G were about the hardware, not the software. 03:37:06 chandler, oh, have they? Do you have personal experience with them? 03:37:11 HP making decent machines again? 03:37:19 Riastradh: Not in depth. No reason to replace my trusty 48GX. 03:37:34 I have poked at the keys on the 50G enough to know that the keyboard is not crap like the 49G was. 03:37:38 Cale_ [n=Cale@CPE001c10c70239-CM000e5cdd834a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 03:37:49 the 49 feels chintzy but the software is OK. not very friendly UI compared to a TI though 03:37:55 Well, that's good. Does it begin to approach the 48 series? 03:38:00 (or any of the older ones) 03:38:19 I'd stick with a 48 over a 49 if you are a RPN-head 03:38:19 Riastradh: The keyboard, or the software? The software is better. It's an evolution of the old CAS, with a much faster processor and more memory. 03:38:24 The keyboard. 03:38:48 Oh. It is not as good as the 48GX. 03:38:54 Pity. 03:38:59 honestly 03:39:13 having a seperate calculator to do all this is sort of silly 03:39:14 Alright, I'm off. 03:39:25 -!- sctb [n=sctb@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.0.60.1"] 03:39:26 it should be a software package for your iThing or Android device 03:39:35 Adamant: Right. That's why I have EMU48 too! 03:39:47 Emulation is not allowed on the iThing, unfortunately. 03:39:55 unless you're in K-12 and have to use a calculator 03:40:13 chandler: that's what jailbreaking is for 03:40:14 But, when you need to calculate, it's hard to beat the user interface of real keys. 03:40:32 On Palm devices, this works beautifully: http://www.mobilevoodoo.com/power48.htm 03:41:03 I wish you could use one language across platforms. 03:41:33 the fact you have to do separate software for iThings and Android is annoying. 03:42:02 I think that's the main reason there hasn't been a really good purposebuilt package 03:42:19 Palm to WinMo to iThings to iThings and Android 03:42:22 Build a good Scheme system for them, Adamant. 03:42:48 Riastradh: Scheme on Java is painful 03:43:00 Sun really needs to add the tailcall instruction 03:43:14 hopefully Google would pick it up for Dalvik. 03:43:39 Riastradh: I was actually looking at what languages I could use for Android 03:44:00 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A01AD.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:44:16 just about the only working "high level functional-ish language" is Scala 03:44:39 otherwise you're stuck with Java 03:46:25 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-21-16.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 03:47:14 nobody really knows how to do compiled Scheme on Java without implementing a mini-interpreter, or having Sun add the instruction 03:47:16 IIRC 03:47:39 other languages run into the same problem 03:53:05 -!- Cale [n=Cale@CPE001c10c70239-CM000e5cdd834a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:57:52 -!- Cale_ is now known as Cale 04:01:31 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-14-246.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:02:21 grettke [n=grettke@CPE-65-31-132-59.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 04:02:34 elmex_ [n=elmex@e180069136.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 04:02:48 Hi guys. I have 2gb in my computer, 4 if need be. Do people still use swap partitions for Linux when you've got this much memory? 04:03:05