00:03:41 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:03:47 error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 00:06:09 annodomini [n=lambda@c-66-30-138-18.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:08:01 hi JohnnyL 00:09:02 -!- facetious [n=facetiou@66.92.130.200] has quit ["Bye"] 00:09:34 hey xz 00:10:02 I have a theory that bloat code can be squeezed down 1000%. 00:10:18 I don't even know what that means. 00:10:25 gzip bloat.ss 00:10:32 heh 00:10:33 bzip2? 00:10:44 synx, no i mean actual working source, not compression. 00:10:56 how about using an optimizer? 00:11:07 rpaddock [n=rpaddock@69.43.128.68] has joined #scheme 00:11:10 JohnnyL: bloat code compresses better 00:11:26 geckosenator but then it doesn't run 00:11:28 geckosenator it still has to execute as bianry. 00:11:28 JohnnyL: I kid. :p 00:11:31 Has anyone been able to get MIT scheme working with SchemeScript? 00:11:53 But seriously, "bloated code" is too general. Some can be refactored down 1000%, some cannot. You have to specify what code you're talking about. 00:12:31 rpaddock, what is `SchemeScript'? 00:12:37 synx, the c source code for homeworld for example contains alot of block copied code. 00:12:41 -!- a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 00:12:51 Riastradh: Plug-in for ecplise 00:12:54 Homeworld 00:13:00 eclipse even 00:13:08 a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has joined #scheme 00:13:26 JohnnyL: You could inline that, sure. Would produce the same executable. Or factor it out into a function. Block copied code can nearly always be eliminated, I agree. 00:13:44 rpaddock, I have never heard of MIT Scheme used with Eclipse (nor have I ever imagined it). I think all six MIT Scheme users use either Edwin or xscheme.el. 00:14:02 rpaddock, what does SchemeScript require of the Scheme system in order to `work'? 00:14:14 JohnnyL are you talking about the job of a compiler? 00:14:21 xz, no source. 00:14:29 JohnnyL a compiler deals with source... 00:14:37 no 00:14:41 Not much, just eclipse. The embedded Kawa interpreter works just fine, but I'd rather use MIT scheme if possible 00:14:43 a technique to elimate bloat. 00:14:50 Since that's the implementation used in the book I'm reading 00:14:53 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-75-68-42-94.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:15:00 JohnnyL for the sake of people reading the source code? 00:15:04 Riastradh: Do you know of anyone using SLIME with the SWANK backend that's in CVS? 00:15:16 chandler, hmmm? 00:15:16 JohnnyL: People have been eliminating duplicate code as a part of "refactoring" for many years now. 00:15:19 JohnnyL that's what procedural and syntactic abstraction are good for 00:15:19 xz, for the sake of programming in sanity. 00:15:29 Riastradh: There's a swank backend for MIT Scheme in SLIME CVS 00:15:41 rpaddock, I mean: what must the Scheme system satisfy for SchemeScript to talk with it? 00:15:45 chandler, I wasn't aware of it. 00:15:51 JohnnyL: e.g. lambda and define-syntax 00:15:52 Oh. Well, now you know! 00:15:59 (My last checkout of SLIME is about two years old.) 00:16:08 Riastradh: Simply have an interactive option I believe 00:16:49 rpaddock, by `an interactive option', do you mean a terminal I/O interface that behaves reasonably straightforwardly? 00:16:55 Yes 00:17:30 Well, MIT Scheme has that. 00:20:50 -!- hemulen [n=hemulen@cpe-069-134-114-252.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:22:17 AshyIsMe [n=User@b415.adsl.ecomtel.com.au] has joined #scheme 00:28:38 -!- error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:29:02 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 00:29:43 wastrel [n=wastrel@nylug/member/wastrel] has joined #scheme 00:30:01 -!- geckosenator [n=sean@c-24-8-193-190.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:34:36 hiyuh [n=hiyuh@ZQ062141.ppp.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 00:41:17 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:41:55 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 00:42:17 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:46:27 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:47:15 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 00:47:43 gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has joined #scheme 00:54:03 -!- drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:55:18 arcfide [n=arcfide@99.137.202.0] has joined #scheme 01:09:40 borism_ [n=boris@195-50-200-2-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 01:12:46 a-s` [n=user@92.80.103.234] has joined #scheme 01:15:52 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-211-94-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 01:24:45 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:26:05 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless162.wireless.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:31:12 mlLK [n=chuck@98.220.166.247] has joined #scheme 01:31:23 does drscheme come w/ builtin math modules? 01:34:15 No, but it has groups and rings and fields. Will those suffice for your purposes? 01:35:08 -!- tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-48-200.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [No route to host] 01:36:08 tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:40:02 vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has joined #scheme 01:45:31 emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 01:46:19 Riastradh, i just downloaded and was wondering do i need to import anything if i wanna use trig functions 01:46:44 i might need to go over the docs a bit more tho 01:48:09 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:48:12 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 01:48:46 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 01:48:57 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:52:34 -!- AshyIsMe [n=User@b415.adsl.ecomtel.com.au] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:53:56 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-229-68.dsl.look.ca] has joined #scheme 02:01:13 npe [n=npe@66.112.249.148] has joined #scheme 02:01:30 -!- kniu [n=kniu@LEMON.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:05:10 saccade_ [n=saccade@209-6-23-56.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 02:07:16 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [No route to host] 02:14:37 incubot [n=incubot@24.205.65.135] has joined #scheme 02:15:51 -!- minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Common Lisp IRC library - http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-irc"] 02:15:51 -!- specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Common Lisp IRC library - http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-irc"] 02:16:19 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-9-196.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 02:16:36 echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-77e4abd7ee97135a] has joined #scheme 02:21:43 schme_ [n=marcus@c83-254-190-108.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 02:22:34 -!- timchen119 is now known as nasloc__ 02:25:58 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-3-23.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:27:00 lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 02:28:17 minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 02:28:38 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:29:57 specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 02:30:13 -!- tizoc_ is now known as tizoc 02:30:27 emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 02:30:54 -!- melito [n=melito@70.99.250.82] has quit ["Leaving..."] 02:33:34 -!- schme [n=marcus@c83-254-190-108.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:36:38 kniu [n=kniu@CMU-301252.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 02:37:12 wy_ [n=wy@c-67-176-146-7.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:37:26 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:37:50 Hi, is there a way to catch errors that are generated by (error ..)? I need to close open files when this occurs. 02:38:07 -!- synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 02:44:31 -!- foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 02:48:02 wy_: you can use something like DYNAMIC-WIND for that 02:48:13 -!- wy_ [n=wy@c-67-176-146-7.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:48:21 whoops, there he goes 02:48:40 well. I didn't notice that I have two windows open 02:48:45 Thanks :) 02:49:30 *Riastradh* blinks. 02:49:33 No, DYNAMIC-WIND is wrong. 02:49:34 duncanm: dynamic-wind works for this task. 02:49:41 wy, there is no standard way to do this. What Scheme system are you using? 02:49:50 ...oops. 02:50:04 Sorry: `catching errors' is wrong. 02:50:13 But I guess there should be some way to catch the error since error is called as (error 'source "pattern ~a" args...) 02:50:36 However, be aware that re-entry into the dynamic-wound extent is permitted. 02:50:36 Hello wy. 02:50:55 Riastradh: That's profound at the time :p 02:51:12 Riastradh: why is catching errors wrong? 02:51:12 So (dynamic-wind values (lambda () ...) (lambda () (close-resources))) may lead to obscure problems later on. 02:51:19 wy: You are saying you want to close ports on an ERROR, but you should ensure that these errors are non-continuable. 02:51:20 arcfide: Good evening :) 02:51:32 foof [n=user@isa7-dhcp-116-151.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 02:51:45 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 02:51:50 If you are dealing with some type of continuable error or exception system, you should NOT close the port. 02:52:08 heh, exception system, in scheme, right ;-) 02:52:24 i guess MIT Scheme qualifies? 02:52:32 duncanm: R6RS has this concept, and plenty of Schemes have this concept, including signal handlers. 02:52:33 duncanm, every Scheme system has something of that sort. 02:52:40 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:52:58 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 02:53:06 Riastradh: but other than MIT Scheme, none of them are continuable, so closing the port is the right thing to do 02:53:34 No. 02:53:55 If you're talking about a port opened with call-with-input-file, 02:54:05 and the compiler can prove it has dynamic extent, 02:54:07 arcfide: Do you mean that dynamic-wind thunks will be executed everytime the thunk enter or exit? 02:54:16 duncanm: Chez is perfectly capable of this. 02:54:18 wy, that's what DYNAMIC-WIND does. 02:54:31 then an exception that passes out of the call *should* close the port. 02:54:45 So that's not a problem. Since I have some (error ...) calls and they will exit the program 02:54:47 No, foof. 02:55:02 Or, it would be nice if it closed the port. Alternately the GC could do it. 02:55:08 Control may still re-enter even if the condition is handled outside the extent of the CWIF. 02:55:14 wy: why are you using ERROR in the first place? 02:55:17 duncanm: In fact, I believe that any system that allows you to define your own error-handlers should be able to do this. 02:55:25 Excuse me: even if the condition handler was established outside the extent of the CWIF. 02:55:33 CWIF? 02:55:34 wy: Are you sure? 02:55:39 duncanm: What else can I do? 02:55:40 Call-With-Input-File 02:55:46 Riastradh: If there are any hooks by which the block can be re-entered, 02:55:56 then the port escapes and what I said doesn7t apply. 02:56:33 wy: If you want to make sure that this happens, you could create your own error-handler for use inside this function, that EXITs after clean-up and the like. 02:56:35 No, foof, the port doesn't actually need to escape the extent of the CWIF in order for a condition to be handled by a handler established outside the extent of the CWIF. 02:56:59 wy: However, if the program truly exits, then you probably get the cleanup for free. 02:57:03 arcfide: Is there a portable way to do that? 02:57:27 Riastradh: I think we misunderstand each other. 02:57:39 I'm thinking about something like try ... catch. But didn't find it in the R*RS 02:57:53 I'm just talking about the case where the compiler can *prove* that 02:57:54 foof, what do you mean by `an exception that passes out of the call'? 02:57:58 the port doesn't escape. 02:58:28 Specifically, the port has dynamic-extent wrt to the CWIF form. 02:58:36 wy, no, you do want DYNAMIC-WIND, but you have to be careful about what you're doing. 02:59:13 (i.e. pretty much only when we're talking about (CWIF (LAMBDA (IN) ...))) 02:59:27 If the language provides a way to re-enter the CWIF LAMBDA, then that 02:59:28 wy, or you want UNWIND-PROTECT, which is not available portably, but which has a sensible definition in terms of finalizers on continuations (which will work in nearly any Scheme system). 02:59:32 Riastradh: but it seems dynamic-wind is doing something different. Is it more general than exception systems? 02:59:34 should be accounted for in the escape analysis. 02:59:41 wy, it is independent of exception systems. 03:00:41 Hmmm... any way, dynamic-wind work for this case. I will look at other ways later 03:01:10 foof, consider (with-condition-handler (lambda (condition) ...) (lambda () (call-with-input-file (lambda (input-port) ... (signal-condition ... port ...) ...)))). The condition handler may re-enter the extent of the CWIF. The compiler may still prove that the port has dynamic extent. 03:01:26 Riastradh: people always site this paper that Chris Hanson wrote on DYNAMIC-WIND, but it's always listed as unpublished - do you have a copy of it? 03:01:46 duncanm, sorry, what paper? Title? 03:02:01 Example reference or citation? 03:02:11 Riastradh: I've been assuming conditions are not restartable. 03:02:21 Riastradh: "Dynamic binding in Scheme" 03:02:57 maybe it's about fluids 03:03:01 If you have restartable exceptions, then you either need to abandon that 03:03:03 foof, there need not be any explicit association between conditions and a restart system. 03:03:05 HANSON, C., AND LAMPING, J. Dynamic binding in Scheme, Unpublished manuscript, 1984. 03:03:37 optimization or account for it in your escape analysis. 03:03:44 duncanm, no, I don't have that, but you can probably read about it in runtime/wind.scm of MIT Scheme. 03:03:52 ah 03:03:57 But if you just have a condition system built on call/cc, 03:04:00 foof, as I said, the port may still have dynamic extent, even when passed to the condition handler. 03:04:14 foof, CWCC has nothing to do with the condition system. 03:04:16 then vanilla escape analysis will show that all variables downard of 03:04:25 the signal-condition escape. 03:04:32 No. 03:04:32 wy: which scheme are you using? 03:05:18 Yes. The condition handler can do anything with them, so they need 03:05:25 to go into a heap allocated closure. 03:05:42 No, not necessarily if the compiler knows with what procedure the condition will be handled. 03:06:16 duncanm: I use petite mainly, only turn to mzscheme when I can't find out the function names that caused errors :p 03:06:17 In the example I gave, it may know just that. 03:06:20 Then it can optimize that, and the variables may escape the CWIF, 03:06:30 wy: heh, that's kinda sad ;-) 03:06:33 but not escape a larger enclosing block. 03:06:50 duncanm: any better choices? 03:07:04 Thus I said "dynamic extent wrt to CWIF." 03:07:07 wy: i was gonna say, if you use PLT Scheme, it comes with its own try/catch syntax 03:07:36 duncanm: You mean mzscheme? 03:07:39 wy: no, no better choices. it's sad because that's the state of scheme implementations out there 03:07:45 Anyway, definitions of "escape anlysis" vary. 03:07:55 (Why don't you use an IRC client that isn't stupendously broken, foof?) 03:08:04 I'm sorry :( 03:08:23 synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has joined #scheme 03:08:25 At least use a different version of Emacs if that one segfaults. 03:08:36 duncanm: It's weird for petite. I think function names are still available even in an interpreter. But I only get uninformative error messages 03:09:02 wy: not that many schemes offer good error messages 03:09:13 But I'm arguing a tautology, which is silly. 03:09:20 What if I had $2000 for a Chez!... 03:09:21 i really like that mzscheme gives line numbers, i dont know of other impls. that do that 03:09:32 I'm basically saying if the compiler can prove the port is never accessed, 03:09:40 it knows the port is never accessed. 03:10:16 (yay, a new carbon emacs was made available a few days ago!) 03:10:30 foof: why would you use carbon emacs over aquamacs? 03:10:40 foof, anyway, the port may not escape, and a condition may be signalled that passes to a handler that was established outside the CWIF; that's what I understand you meant by `an exception that passes out of the call'. Perhaps you meant `when control exits the extent of the CWIF and is guaranteed not to re-enter'; conditions are a red herring here. 03:10:57 duncanm: It's not so hard to do that. I report line and column numbers in the compiler I wrote. I don't why some implementations omit this important information 03:11:15 wy: come write that into scsh for me! ;-) 03:11:18 duncanm, because it's actually supported as part of Emacs, and doesn't randomly twiddle the key bindings so that some are Macoid and some are Emacsoid but overall are consistent with neither. 03:11:25 `...perhaps because...' 03:11:39 oh, i thought you can turn that stuff off 03:11:45 I said "Specifically, the port has dynamic-extent wrt to the CWIF form." 03:12:12 duncanm: Historically, at least, Carbon Emacs had better Japanese support. 03:12:24 foof, yes...the port may have dynamic extent with respect to the CWIF, and a condition may still pass to an enclosing handler without exiting that extent. 03:12:37 So I'm already not talking about ordinary escape analysis, 03:12:41 foof: ah 03:12:45 wy: Have you tried the extra extensions that give names to the procedures in Petite? 03:12:55 which doesn't distinguish between absolute escapes and escapes relative 03:12:58 to blocks. 03:14:12 arcfide: Are there extensions? I haven't tried 03:14:38 wy: you can redefine lambda slightly to store some information in it so that you know the procedure name. 03:14:46 The details of the escape analysis aren't important to my objection. Control may pass to an enclosing condition handler without exiting the extent of the CWIF. The criterion by which the port should be closed has nothing to do with invoking condition handlers. 03:15:08 wy: I don't have the details, but you can do it. 03:15:55 wy: One reason that Petite doesn't have that information is that it attempts to be as lean an interpreter as is reasonable, and it doesn't bother to retain information it doesn't need to after its optimization passes. 03:16:05 The port should be closed when control cannot re-enter sensibly. `Sensibly' is a hard criterion to compute automatically, so the more conservative criterion that the port be closed when control cannot re-enter at all is preferable to implement. 03:16:22 wy_ [n=wy@c-67-176-146-7.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:16:24 wy: You also don't need $2000 for Chez. I think it's definitely less than that if you are a single developer. :-) 03:16:52 Riastradh: We seem to mean different things when we say "escape." 03:17:13 I believe we agree that escaping has to do with dynamic extent, foof. 03:17:29 yes. 03:17:52 Dynamic extent is unrelated to condition handlers, except inasmuch as condition handlers are generally established only for limited dynamic extents. 03:19:11 I'm assuming restartable conditions are syntactic-sugar using call/cc. 03:19:41 So (signal-condition ...) => (call/cc (restart) (handle restart ...)) 03:19:54 `Restartable condition' suggests more of an association between conditions and restarts than is necessary to the concept of restarts. 03:20:10 -!- forcer [n=forcer@e179198027.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:20:14 SIGNAL-CONDITION need involve no CWCC. All that it need do is grab the nearest condition handler and invoke it. 03:20:54 Then in that case the compiler needs to take that into account when doing escape analysis, or abandon such analysis or optimizations altogether. 03:21:44 Take what into account? Again, the port might not escape the extent even if it is passed to the nearest condition handler, about which the compiler may have knowledge. 03:22:05 It may be that the compiler knows of the handler only that whatever is passed to it will not escape. 03:22:46 OK, the optimization we're discussing is a weak form of live-variable analysis. 03:25:06 If there's no magic involved in the condition system, and it's just syntax for call/cc, then the compiler can prove that when you leave the dynamic extent of a lambda, the parameters to that lambda that didn't escape are dead. 03:25:25 you guys can do everything that you're talking about using scheme? 03:25:25 The condition system has nothing whatsoever to do with CWCC. 03:25:34 I KNOW! 03:25:49 `It's just syntax for CWCC' suggests that you believe otherwise. 03:25:52 I'm talking about the distinction between when it uses CWCC and when it doesn't. 03:26:19 When it uses CWCC, the optimization I gave is valid. 03:26:25 la la la 03:27:34 error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 03:27:40 I wonder if it's ever a good idea to return back into a continuation, without using set! 03:27:52 Or in other words, I'm talking about a compiler working at a language 03:28:01 level where there is no condition system. 03:28:46 Because normally after you return from a continuation, you don't want to invoke that again... side effects aside, it'll re-evaluate all your code fork-bomb style. So I set! the variable to the next place I want to go, instead of the old one. 03:28:50 foof, let me elaborate on my example just a trifle. (with-condition-handler (lambda (condition) (retry-if-possible)) (lambda () (call-with-input-file (lambda (input-port) ... (with-retry-point (lambda () ... (signal-condition ... port ...) ...)))))) 03:29:12 a1len: Is that so hard to believe? 03:29:21 Riastradh: I know what you're saying. 03:29:28 I'm talking about "not that case." 03:29:51 So what is your criterion for what this case is? 03:30:19 -!- tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has quit [] 03:30:28 And why need a condition system enter into the question of when ports be closed at all? 03:30:44 arcfide: well, i'm just now learning the surface area of a cylinder and of a pipe; i never knew you could do all this stuff with it. i thought the big stuff was c. 03:31:15 grettke [n=grettke@CPE-65-31-132-59.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:31:17 a1len: C is just a language, Scheme is just a language. Both can be used to express a great deal. 03:31:27 oh I'm kicked off again 03:31:28 Riastradh: A language with no condition system at all. 03:31:38 -!- kniu [n=kniu@CMU-301252.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:32:05 foof, but your criterion for closing a port was the passage of a condition to a handler enclosing the CWIF -- at least, that's what I understood. 03:32:17 a1len: As far as I can tell, everyone here right now is just talking about "try: catch". There is some difficulty with having that, and call/cc together. 03:32:20 So not that complicated a concept, just implementing it without leaks is tricky. 03:32:29 No, that's just what it looks like to the user. 03:32:30 No, synx. 03:32:41 try: (call/cc go-somewhere-else-forever) catch: oops... 03:33:26 The criterion is just control leaving the CWIF, plus knowledge that the port doesn't escape the CWIF. 03:33:31 Riastradh: You're talking about closing a port when leaving a thingy, like if an exception were raised. :> 03:33:56 arcfide: isn't scheme a mode for lisp? isn't lisp the language? or is scheme? 03:33:57 synx, what is hard is releasing resources at the right time, in a language in which control may be redirected by the program easily. It is relatively easy to approximate a *safe* time to release resources. Refining this approximation is difficult. 03:34:21 synx, no, *not* when a condition is signalled. The signalling of conditions is absolutely irrelevant to the issue of resource release. 03:34:22 a1len: Scheme is a dialect of the "Lisp" family of languages, of which Common Lisp is a part. 03:34:48 Riastradh: Yes that's very difficult. It's way over my head at least. All I can do is use what you guys produce, and trust that it won't leak out resources that don't get cleaned up. 03:34:50 Riastradh: Your point is valid and duncanm's idea is in general wrong. 03:35:03 a1len: So, it is correct to say that it is its own language (many, in fact, at times), but it is also correct (in some sense) to say that it is Lisp. 03:35:03 I was just thinking too much about my own compiler, which at that level 03:35:11 of analysis has no condition system. 03:35:25 foof, your criterion does not imply that the user will observe the release of resources when conditions are signalled. 03:35:39 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:35:54 ? 03:36:43 foof, here's my understanding of what you have said: `The criterion is just control leaving the CWIF, plus knowledge that the port doesn't escape the CWIF.' `[Closing a port when a condition is signalled is] just what it looks like to the user.' 03:36:57 jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:37:15 a1len: with clisp, you have to do things like (funcall my-multiply (funcall my-add (funcall my-mungle 3) 4) 5), whereas with scheme it's (my-multiply (my-add (my-mungle 3) 4) 5). Neither one is really derived from the other, just different but similar. 03:37:20 I may be mistaken in my substitution for `that' in one of your earlier messages. 03:37:40 oh, i'm totally gonna hang out in here from now on. pretty soon i'll be talking like you guys.... 'define this condition to do that, and use this function for that procedure' 03:37:41 synx, be aware that CLISP is an implementation of the programming language called Common Lisp, whose name's abbreviation is CL. 03:37:47 Riastradh: Yes, that's my story and I'm sticking to it :) 03:37:48 that's rock man. 03:37:54 -!- wy [n=wy@c-67-176-146-7.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Success] 03:38:08 That's really what turns me away from clisp, is how you have to use their 'apply' equivalent on every single function, unless that function is chosen by the elites to be a built-in function. 03:38:19 foof, well, here's my story: The user may observe the signalling of a condition without the closing of the port. 03:38:19 Riastradh: Ok fine I'll use CL then :p 03:38:51 Well, after that we need to specify _how_ the port closing optimization is implemented. 03:39:36 That and it's fun to watch smart people discussing call/cc, even if I can't understand what the heck they're griping about :) 03:39:48 But let's just say we can specify an action to take place as a hook immediately before the extent is left (like with dynamic-wind). 03:39:51 foof, let me clarify: The compiler may prove that the port does not escape the dynamic extent of the CWIF, and the user may observe the signalling of a condition without the closing of a port. 03:41:25 how? 03:42:54 The condition handler may pass control elsewhere within the dynamic extent of the CWIF. Then control will never have escaped the extent of CWIF, and neither will the port have escaped. 03:43:00 -!- grettke [n=grettke@CPE-65-31-132-59.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [] 03:43:37 I said dynamic extent wrt the CWIF. 03:43:59 Neither control nor the port will ever have escaped the dynamic extent of the CWIF. 03:44:04 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:44:16 (In the Orbit papers they talk about upward vs. downwards escaping, but that always confused me.) 03:45:14 I mean, the direction confused me. 03:47:00 You can flag parameters to a lambda as to whether they never leave the lambda at all (are only passed to primitives and non-escaping local procedures local to the lambda), or whether they escape (downwards?) to a known procedure outside the lambda. 03:47:27 ... or whether they escape (upwards?) to an altogether unknown procedure, or are stored in a data structure, etc. 03:47:40 Here, I'll give an example that is almost executable in MIT Scheme. Note that there is no association between conditions and restarts in this example. (MIT Scheme supports such association, but only for the sake of clarifying the intent of certain restarts [so and so a restart is useful for dealing with this condition; such and such is useful for that one].) 03:48:16 The only non-executable part is a procedure ATTEMPT-TRANSACTION, which attempts some unspecified action with the input port, in which the compiler knows the input port will not escape. 03:49:28 Riastradh pasted "non-escaping port with condition signalling" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69885 03:50:01 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@99.137.202.0] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:50:33 Riastradh: In that example, my compiler flags input-port as escaping. 03:50:42 Why? 03:51:28 Because it is captured by a procedure (the restart continuation) which escapes the lambda. 03:51:34 -!- wy_ [n=wy@c-67-176-146-7.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:52:16 WITH-SIMPLE-RESTART would be syntactic sugar for storing a lambda in a global exception handler stack. 03:52:19 *Nothing* escapes here, assuming the condition on ATTEMPT-TRANSACTION. 03:52:23 So that lambda escapes. 03:52:27 (Um, `condition' in the general sense.) 03:52:35 Say `dynamic', not `global'. 03:52:43 OK 03:52:56 Also, it stores not a procedure from a user lambda but an escape procedure (or any reification of a continutaion). 03:53:30 To be precise: WITH-SIMPLE-RESTART remmebers its continuation and allows condition handlers applied within its dynamic extent to invoke that continuation. 03:53:31 Which, _by_ _definition_ of my whole argument, is a normal lambda. 03:53:46 Riastradh: So the (error) would stop at (with-simple-restart), and it would continue on the next loop, retrying the transaction without closing the file? 03:54:08 synx, the call to ERROR would invoke the condition handler established at the beginning. 03:54:31 That condition handler would search for the nearest RETRY restart, and invoke it. 03:54:54 This has the effect of returning from the call to WITH-SIMPLE-RESTART, at which point LOOP will be called again. 03:55:40 has someone done keyword arguments? 03:55:43 The procedure needs to be bound in a dynamic location accessible by attempt-transaction. 03:55:59 Oh I see Riastradh. Thanks. 03:56:00 foof, now, if it is the dynamically bound list of restarts that concerns you, by a slight modification, I can pass the continuation of WITH-SIMPLE-RESTART to the condition handler without using that list. 03:56:11 OK, then it also escapes. 03:56:16 No. 03:56:21 What passes to the condition handler does not escape. 03:56:53 Sorry, it escapes if passed to attempt-transaction. 03:57:12 Sorry, I've forgotten what `it' is. 03:57:23 The retry procedure. 03:57:53 Although in this case, input-port is passed to the unknown attempt-transaction, so it escapes regardless. 03:57:56 I never passed that to ATTEMPT-TRANSACTION. All I passed to ATTEMPT-TRANSACTION is the input port. (It doesn't matter, anyway -- by assumption, anything passed to ATTEMPT-TRANSACTIOn does not escape.) 03:58:02 ("it" here being input-port) 03:58:03 No -- the compiler knows about ATTEMPT-TRANSACTION, and knows that it does not escape. 03:58:14 (...`it' here being the input port again. Gosh, I'm bad with pronouns.) 03:58:23 OK 03:58:40 So, as I've said: nothing in this program escapes. 03:58:45 But a condition is signalled. 03:59:39 Wait... I'm unclear on how the condition is being managed. 03:59:49 `Managed'? 04:00:18 ERROR creates a condition and applies the nearest enclosing handler to that condition. 04:00:20 If it doesn't leave the extent of the CWIF at all, then you're OK - the code for closing the port wouldn't be called anyway. 04:00:34 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@209-6-23-56.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:00:34 -!- gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:00:34 -!- CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-75-68-42-94.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:00:34 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:00:34 -!- michaelw [i=michaelw@lambda.foldr.org] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:00:34 -!- mqt [i=tran@monaco.nirv.net] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:00:34 -!- tjafk2 [n=timj@e176218015.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:00:34 -!- dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:00:34 -!- aquanaut [n=user@pool-71-191-49-201.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:00:34 -!- Wardje [n=Ward@67.202.80.55] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:00:34 -!- gnomon [n=gnomon@CPE001d60dffa5c-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:00:34 -!- certainty|work [n=david@212.77.226.243] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:00:34 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:00:39 No -- you told me that if a condition is signalled in the extent of the CWIF, the port will be closed. 04:01:03 No, I hope I didn't imply that. 04:01:03 That is, if a condition is passed through CWIF (and any handlers established by it surrounding the dynamic extent of its body), the port will be closed. 04:01:23 I'm talking about a condition inside that CWIF that is caught outside the CWIF. 04:01:36 What does `caught outside' mean? 04:02:05 Does it mean that a handler that was established outside the extent of the CWIF is applied within the dynamic extent of the CWIF? 04:02:10 Outside the lexical scope of the CWIF. 04:02:35 I think you mean `dynamic' there, but in any case, I think you'll also agree that the condition handler I established in my lisppaste satisfies that. 04:03:22 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-229-68.dsl.look.ca] has quit [] 04:03:44 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-229-68.dsl.look.ca] has joined #scheme 04:04:29 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-229-68.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 04:04:34 Yes, and by my definition, because the retry procedure is passed to a lambda external to the CWIF lambda, the retry procedure and thus the CWIF procedure and thus it's parameters all escape (downwards, or weakly, or whatever you want to call it). 04:05:01 But I'm _really_ busy right now and shouldn't be spending time on this. 04:05:16 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-229-68.dsl.look.ca] has joined #scheme 04:05:29 saccade_ [n=saccade@209-6-23-56.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 04:05:29 gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has joined #scheme 04:05:29 annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has joined #scheme 04:05:29 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 04:05:29 tjafk2 [n=timj@e176218015.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 04:05:29 aquanaut [n=user@pool-71-191-49-201.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 04:05:29 mqt [i=tran@monaco.nirv.net] has joined #scheme 04:05:29 certainty|work [n=david@212.77.226.243] has joined #scheme 04:05:29 gnomon [n=gnomon@CPE001d60dffa5c-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 04:05:29 michaelw [i=michaelw@lambda.foldr.org] has joined #scheme 04:05:29 dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has joined #scheme 04:05:29 Wardje [n=Ward@67.202.80.55] has joined #scheme 04:05:31 aquanaut` [n=user@pool-71-191-49-201.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 04:05:44 I can discuss it tomorrow, but we really need to expand all the condition system syntax to be clear. Then I can actually run it through my compiler. 04:05:56 (There is no syntax involved here.) 04:05:58 -!- mqt [i=tran@monaco.nirv.net] has quit [Success] 04:06:05 mqt [i=tran@monaco.nirv.net] has joined #scheme 04:06:22 Yes, there _has_ to be, again _by_ _definition_ of my argument. 04:06:30 I'm talking about a language with no condition system. 04:06:48 *foof* goes back to work 04:06:58 This condition system is entirely procedural and involves no macros. All it requires is some notion of dynamic binding. 04:07:52 Oh, right, you can do that because you passed a lambda to wsr. 04:08:05 In that case, that lambda escapes, and my argument holds. 04:08:28 No, because the compiler knows enough about WITH-SIMPLE-RESTART and the condition handler that will be applied and so on. 04:09:23 You can put all this information together and turn out with a highly optimized and equivalent program that looks like this: 04:09:35 Riastradh: Do you understand the two different types of escaping, and the idea that in general there may be other types? 04:10:43 And that while both have to do with dynamic extent, the stronger form also has to do with lexical scope? 04:11:12 -!- foof [n=user@isa7-dhcp-116-151.naist.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:11:20 Riastradh annotated #69885 with "optimized version" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69885#1 04:12:13 I do understand the two different types of escaping, and they are irrelevant to this question. A sufficiently smart compiler can reduce the original program into the annotation without altering its semantics, and if you apply your analysis to the resulting program, the input port will not be closed until the transaction succeeds. 04:12:43 (Again, we can assume that the compiler knows exactly what ATTEMPT-TRANSACTION does. What it does is just not interesting to this discussion.) 04:13:50 Your analysis gives different semantics to two equivalent programs, and is therefore not faithful to the semantics of the language. 04:14:46 Sorry, I misstated that. 04:15:27 kniu [n=kniu@CMU-301252.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 04:15:54 You claimed that, under your optimization, the user will observe the closing of the port when a condition is signalled and handled by a handler enclosing the CWIF. 04:16:52 However, if your optimization is applied to the second program, the user will most certainly not observe the closing of the port after the first attempted transaction. Hence the user will also not observe in the original program the closing of the port after the first attempted transaction. 04:17:51 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-75-68-42-94.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:18:04 synx, by the way, you may prefer the second program over the first. 04:18:21 The second one is just a smidge clearer. 04:24:31 just a tad 04:25:04 foof [n=user@isa7-dhcp-116-151.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 04:25:12 *foof* wonders if this version of Emacs segfaults? 04:25:30 This channel is still logged, right? 04:25:38 Yes, I checked the logs. 04:25:48 My optimization can't be applied to either version. 04:26:00 input-port escapes to attempt-transation 04:26:00 Why not? 04:26:03 No... 04:26:18 ATTEMPT-TRANSACTION is a placeholder for `some expression in which INPUT-PORT does not escape'. 04:26:33 It needn't be a procedure; it could be a macro that expands to some use of INPUT-PORT that doesn't let it escape. 04:27:13 It's essential to open-code attempt-transaction and break it down into primitives. 04:27:45 Very well: do that if you wish. You are permitted. May we look at the rest of the programs now, and forget ATTEMPT-TRANSACTION? 04:28:00 For that matter, ATTEMPT-TRANSACTION need not even involve the input port. 04:28:58 Consider, e.g., (call-with-output-file output-pathname (lambda (output-port) (let loop () (write-char #\. output-port) (if (not (attempt-transaction)) (loop] 04:28:59 Sorry, have to meet with my prof, no time... 04:29:23 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:30:36 -!- wastrel [n=wastrel@nylug/member/wastrel] has quit ["annoyed"] 04:31:49 -!- aquanaut [n=user@pool-71-191-49-201.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:31:55 Dawgmatix [n=deep@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 04:36:44 Daemmerung: ping 04:37:02 pong 04:37:35 Dawgmatix: I was pinging Daemmerung... 04:37:40 cpfr [n=cf@cpe-76-171-165-212.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 04:38:05 didnt notice that at first :) 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04:52:30 NNshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-118.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 04:52:49 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-4-157.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:54:31 But you have to remember that the analysis is does after CPS transformation, and so the trailing (loop) call is going to be passed as a first class lambda node to the simplified IF node that receives the result of the attempt-transaction call. 04:55:07 -!- MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:55:29 So it's hard to tell at a glance what really escapes. 04:55:53 But I really don't have time now, argh... 04:57:11 Given all the information I have given, your compiler can basically decide whatever it wants will escape. 04:57:32 `Could', sorry, not `can'. 04:57:49 And `may', not `will'. 04:58:26 So your compiler could determine that nothing may escape, in which case you claimed that the user would observe the port's closing -- which doesn't happen. 05:00:25 yome [n=guillaum@bas4-montreal28-1279577780.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #scheme 05:00:44 How's my practicality looking, yome? 05:01:13 (Hi!) 05:01:22 Hello 05:02:57 does scheme have a math library builtin? 05:03:08 i'm looking to use a trig function 05:03:19 rudybot_: eval (atan 0 -1) 05:03:20 Riastradh: ; Value: 3.141592653589793 05:05:52 foof, also, I'm curious: of what value is an optimization that is applied in such limited circumstances as when a complex object such as a port does not escape at all? 05:06:58 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 05:14:37 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:14:56 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 05:20:54 Riastradh: every time I encounter Shirlock Holmes, my inner narrative voice has been replaced by your IRC persona; so firmly do I believe that you're his most proximate incarnation to me. 05:21:43 (`Shirlock'?) 05:21:58 Sorry: s/i/e/ 05:22:03 (`;' in that context?) 05:22:19 Could have been s/;/:/ 05:22:27 No, I believe you wanted a comma there. 05:22:52 The clause there demarcated is not independent. 05:23:15 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:23:32 I had a comma after `Sherlock Holmes,' and like to chain subsequent clauses with a colon or semicolon; depending on whether or not they form a videlicet. 05:24:31 There is an old Anglo Saxon tradition of semi-colon qua "strong" comma. 05:25:12 Damn the Anglo Saxons. Full doddering prescriptionism ahead! 05:26:15 -!- NNshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-118.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 05:27:15 -!- tjafk2 [n=timj@e176218015.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:27:37 tjafk2 [n=timj@e176208166.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 05:27:37 -!- kniu [n=kniu@CMU-301252.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:27:39 (Did I just paraphrase Star Wars, Star Trek, or something else? I can't remember.) 05:27:55 -!- Dawgmatix [n=deep@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 05:29:27 Riastradh: actually, that's David Farragut at the Battle of Mobile Bay: "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!" 05:30:38 -!- mlLK [n=chuck@98.220.166.247] has quit [] 05:30:51 underspecified [n=eric@clair12.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 05:31:22 -!- gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has left #scheme 05:32:00 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:32:31 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 05:33:58 kniu [n=kniu@LEMON.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 05:36:07 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 05:44:20 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:46:44 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 05:49:15 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@209-6-23-56.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 05:49:54 -!- yome [n=guillaum@bas4-montreal28-1279577780.dsl.bell.ca] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 05:53:39 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:54:41 bcow [n=null@S01060050fc051c84.lb.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 05:58:26 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 06:04:16 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:04:34 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 06:06:31 eli: Howdy 06:09:10 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@3ad50e34.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #scheme 06:11:01 http://webhome.csc.uvic.ca/~djohnson/stack.html <--- whats the syntax to push/pop on this stack function ? 06:14:34 -!- vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has quit ["The incensed priests...continued to raise their voices, vituperating each other in bad Latin"] 06:17:44 bcow: looks like ((stack 'push!) 'pushee) to me; why not write your own? 06:19:12 Zounds, that Forth interpreter could stand a good bit of slimming down. 06:19:27 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-229-68.dsl.look.ca] has quit ["Where is the glory in complying with demands?"] 06:19:31 The semantics that it implements would make any Forth user scream, I think. 06:19:57 thanks klutometis, i would but i'm short on time 06:20:30 Leaving assignments til the last minute again, bcow? :) 06:21:53 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:22:11 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 06:23:59 hehe gnomon actually i didn't for once (got 6 days till its due) but i'm not sure how long its going to take me to finish 06:28:39 Good planning, then! 06:29:08 I'd be wary of copying relatively poor code from 2001 for a recent assignment, though. You may be unpleasantly surprised. 06:30:29 yeah, depending on the complexity of your assignment; writing a stack is probably the least of your problems 06:30:42 well, maybe the least 06:30:59 hmm ya it is 06:33:17 -!- underspecified [n=eric@clair12.naist.jp] has quit [] 06:36:09 underspecified [n=eric@clair12.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 06:36:47 Aww, there was a yome sighting and I missed him! 06:36:54 rudybot_: seen yome 06:36:55 offby1: yome was seen in/on #scheme one hour, thirty-five minutes ago, saying "Hello", and then yome was seen quitting in/on bas4-montreal28-1279577780.dsl.bell.ca forty-seven minutes, one second ago, saying ""Ex-Chat"" 06:37:09 he's pretty slippery 06:37:23 some say he's just a myth 06:37:34 I imagine that he's spending most of his time tending to mini-yome these days. 06:37:55 if he were still in Seattle, I'd jaw at him about Erlang 06:38:07 offby1: you've been learning Erlang? 06:38:10 yep 06:38:12 using it at work 06:38:14 ah 06:38:19 and yome worked on termite? 06:38:26 been doing pretty much nothing but churning out erlang code for the last 6 months 06:38:30 yes, yome created termite. 06:38:39 offby1: how do you find Erlang? 06:38:46 offby1: at amazon? 06:39:04 wait until dark; go into the storage closet; peek into the hamper. You'll find it under the used towels 06:39:05 har har 06:39:22 duncanm: no, happily I'm no longer at amazon. I'm at a little startup: http://cozi.com 06:39:31 extra credit if you find my picture on the "team members" page 06:39:37 (hint: I'm the fullback) 06:39:41 ahh, i remember that now 06:39:47 i think you showed us that once 06:39:51 :-( 06:40:39 dakeyras [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-125-63.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 06:47:08 offby1: lot of ex-amazonians there; i'd have to rule out andrew, joanna, mira, samantha; that leaves eric and jacob 06:47:12 i bet on eric 06:48:22 *offby1* backs away slowly 06:48:27 how ... how could he tell ... 06:48:44 why rule out Andrew? 06:49:03 It's the scruffy beard and the intended, but not visibly exhibited, smirk. 06:49:14 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:49:15 Riastradh: you keep outta this! 06:49:22 heh 06:49:23 Keep offa my lawn! 06:49:31 I'm only speculating about klutometis's logic here! 06:49:42 offby1: unless you're "joshing" me, there's a certain je ne sais quoi that bespeaks beard 06:49:50 See? 06:49:54 :-( 06:49:57 I'm SO transparent 06:50:07 I see they finally took Zane's picture down. 06:50:24 (Zane recently ran off to be a grad student under (I think) Mitch Wand at NEU. Go PLT!) 06:50:40 andrew looks like a c++ fetishist to me, honestly; or maybe ruby/python 06:50:45 Now, I don't know whether my mannerisms suggest `clay pipe'; klutometis will be a better judge of that. 06:50:45 who has the web 2.0 superpowers? 06:51:04 klutometis: actually he's the Director of Something or Other now. I don't know what his favored language is. 06:51:13 I suspect he's capable in practically anything 06:51:30 klutometis: the web 2.0 superpowers was Zane :) 06:51:37 introduced us to http://billmonk.com, e.g. 06:51:48 s/capable in/capable of/ 06:52:02 -!- echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-77e4abd7ee97135a] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:52:07 ... Most people never have to face the fact that at the right time and right place, they're capable of using Emacs for anything. -- Noah Cross, Los Angeles Department of Water and Power (paraphrased slightly) 06:52:46 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [] 06:53:01 ffx` [n=tits@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #scheme 06:53:37 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-247-170-199.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 06:54:21 Riastradh: when I first joined #scheme some 17 months ago, someone purported to have found a group photo containing you; you denied it vigorously, though the most plausible candidate was a fencer. 06:56:02 You've heard how Google Maps' "Street View" obscures the faces of people who happen to wind up in their photos? Well, that's what Riastradh looks like _in real life_! It's scary. Sort of like "The Invisible Man". 06:56:13 All you can see of him is his suit, which I must say is pretty classy. 06:56:16 -!- JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182ddad4.dyn.optonline.net] has left #scheme 06:56:21 Some kind of tailored Hong Kong thing, I think. 06:56:36 weird how he wears those gloves everywhere, even in summer, though 06:57:21 Heh; the biological pixelation only adds to his authority and mystique. 06:58:20 I see that ircbrowse.com is back up! How delightful! 06:58:43 It seems to be lacking logs for #scheme between June 5 and the present, though. 07:00:07 Perhaps that was because it was down for those months. 07:03:33 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 07:05:43 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 07:08:44 klutometis, yea I remember the picture 07:10:21 it was novel but sort of irrelevent to me since I only interact with Riastradh via IRC, and he seems to prefer relative anonymity 07:10:49 offby1: oh, there's a Zane at the PL lab now, that's right 07:13:33 kilimanjaro: you're probably right; didn't prevent him from asking us who we thought he was and why, though ;) 07:14:52 klutometis, ohh, well this was a picture posted on the blog of a lisper, from a ski trip, and it listed the people in the photo 07:19:42 kilimanjaro: yeah, but I thought Riastradh was claiming that it was yet another Taylor Campbell who happened to hang out with lispers 07:20:09 is that the busty Taylor Campbell who "likes it rough"? 07:20:14 heh 07:20:32 geckosenator [n=sean@c-24-8-193-190.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 07:21:26 Great googly-moogly, the tunes.org IRC logs for #scheme tip the scale at just over 130 megabytes. 07:21:39 klutometis, well I guess that is plausible, but also irrelevent, because until he provides evidence to the contrary I will just assume that it was him in the picture 07:21:45 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:21:52 That's about 20 bzip2'd kilobytes, give or take. 07:21:52 -!- Deformative [n=joe@c-68-62-76-160.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 07:22:23 I've never ski'd in my life; nor have I been on any sort of ski trip. 07:22:58 gnomon: yeah, it took me days to stuff them into incubot 07:23:14 Riastradh, but Taylor Campbell has, and you are Taylor Campbell! 07:23:16 Hmm. I'm looking for a reference on the theorem that the Euler characteristic of a product is the product of the Euler characteristics. 07:23:20 kilimanjaro: i hope this isn't the same taylor campbell you mean: http://www.freewebs.com/caseyisanemogirl/My%20camera%20034.JPG 07:23:37 klutometis, hehe nope 07:24:44 that taylor campbell is somewhat discordant with my pipe-smoking-Holmes, but maybe it will have to do 07:25:37 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B056CDC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 07:26:24 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 07:42:05 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-18-165.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 07:47:41 I remember overalls... 07:51:11 osh kosh b'gosh? 07:51:13 sehr nice 07:52:05 a bit snug these days I imagine 07:56:06 klutometis: sprichst du deutsch? 07:56:45 a1len: klar 07:56:45 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-61-150-59.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 07:57:50 kulutometis: prima! you hang out here a lot? i've decided that i'm gonna stick around whilst learning scheme because everyone here is very smart. 07:58:30 -!- CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-61-150-59.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:58:31 are you learning scheme systematically with, say, SICP; or just catch as catch can? 07:59:01 Do be aware that `smartness' (whatever that is) is seldom related meaningfully to the sesquipedalienity of one's lexicon. 07:59:16 systematically with drscheme and htdp. 07:59:28 Riastradh: are you per chance english? 07:59:29 Excuse me: sesquipedalianity. It is late; I am tired. 07:59:51 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-9-196.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:00:00 What ever would suggest that, a1len? 08:00:11 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 08:00:27 your verbage. 08:00:38 Riastradh: surely our words are longer than a foot-and-a-half. 08:00:48 My verbs or my verbiage? 08:01:06 i left out the i 08:01:43 I, verbiageously verbose? Ne'er! 08:02:45 i didn't say verbose nor did i suggest verbosity. 08:03:18 it's like you read wilde and follow up with dostoecsky. 08:03:30 the c is supposed to be a v 08:04:43 a1len: you could surely do worse than learn scheme with #scheme as your daemon; id est, Jiminy. 08:06:26 error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 08:06:39 klutometis: i know; in high school i tried to learn physics by dropping a brick on my foot. 08:07:02 A lot of us here cut our teeth on SICP; but there are some advocates of HtDP around. 08:07:14 It was an apple, and on his head, in Newton's case; I can see what was wrong with your high school! 08:08:20 sicp? i shall investigate this sicp 08:08:37 a1len: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book.html 08:08:48 danke schon 08:09:05 macht aber nichts 08:09:42 I learn entirely via IRC 08:09:51 In person I can only speak in grunts and whimpers. 08:10:14 synx: then you must be cave-man-schemer 08:10:17 i would like to go to MIT. this text is depressing me 08:10:26 depressing, why? 08:10:55 mit seems a quixotic goal at the moment. 08:11:16 the best part of cambridge are the spring bikinis on the charles, anyway; 08:11:21 the best part of mit is sicp 08:11:31 haha 08:12:25 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B056CDC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:12:31 MIT is a good place to go for gathering street cred. I'd pick a less extreme campus if you actually want to learn something though. 08:12:52 (6.001 is no longer offered at MIT. The last 6.001 was held in the fall of 2007.) 08:13:08 the junior college down the street is where it's at 08:13:17 ping synx ^ 08:13:30 mike [n=mike@dslb-088-066-246-019.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 08:13:38 Riastradh: that's right: I forgot that they instituted some vague Python-robotics replacement. 08:13:38 Just that colleges like that are under a lot of pressure to spend time testing instead of teaching. 08:13:46 city colleges suck in their own special little way 08:13:57 -!- mike is now known as Guest76372 08:14:06 Riastradh: I thought the Python-based course was intended to go along with the SICP one, instead of replace it 08:14:28 I want to go to a state college maybe, somewhere with good faculty and on-campus housing. But nothing too high profile. 08:14:33 It does not replace 6.001, but 6.001 is no more. 08:15:24 :( 08:15:34 So no more Scheming at MIT? 08:15:45 Or are there still other courses dealing with Scheme? 08:16:00 The introductory computer science courses no longer use Scheme. There remain others. 08:16:15 should focus on paying for groceries first, meh. 08:16:38 synx: nonsense; you can always resort to cannabalism 08:17:25 yakov2 [n=yakov@79.136.60.147] has joined #scheme 08:17:54 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:18:14 I'm using DrScheme (and with module "#lang scheme") and I'm wondering what I need to do to be able to use the tracer? 08:18:50 You will either need a goat or a chicken, an altar, and probably some bleach. 08:19:00 elmex [n=elmex@e180069002.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 08:20:29 :( 08:21:46 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:21:54 Seriously, yakov2, did you read the help file? 08:24:50 doing it now^^ 08:28:01 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-61-150-59.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 08:29:09 ah nice 08:29:12 -!- yakov2 [n=yakov@79.136.60.147] has quit [] 08:30:05 -!- ffx` [n=tits@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:31:02 i like sicp. i think i'll carry it a couple chapters and see what happens. 08:33:57 sirs, may i ask you something as a fledgling programmer? or better yet, as an unhatched egg of what one day will be a fledgling programmer 08:35:07 MONODA_ [n=danyhadd@broad2067.cyberia.net.lb] has joined #scheme 08:37:34 "Don't ask to ask a question, just ask a question" 08:38:30 -!- pjdelport [n=pjd@dsl-243-1-136.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:39:05 pjdelport [n=pjd@dsl-243-1-136.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 08:39:28 oh, may i ask if it says that in the /topic? 08:40:36 Har de har. 08:41:37 was scheme your (whoever cares to answer) first dialect? and what did you learn after that? 08:41:45 fry, let me ax you a question. 08:44:58 a1len: It wasn't my first dialect. 08:45:39 schme_: it wasn't? but your handle is schme_; you must like it a bunch. 08:46:25 a1len: I assure you, schme_ is not scheme. I ended up with this screenname for reasons not at all associated to programming :) 08:47:03 a1len: But it's quite charming, yes. 08:47:13 ecraven [n=nex@dyn167180.wlan.jku.at] has joined #scheme 08:47:18 -!- schme_ [n=marcus@c83-254-190-108.bredband.comhem.se] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 08:49:04 schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #scheme 08:49:12 My gad 08:49:12 schme_: oh, i thought it was for Scheme, because they're spelt similarly. if you think it's a charming dialect, though, i suppose that it's a nice coincidence. 08:49:38 a1len: I believe that scheme is the fourth lisp dialect for me. 08:49:52 dang 08:50:08 this is really going to take some time 08:50:24 Nah. Half of 'em are not worth checking out ;) 08:51:01 i mean programming in general. i'll have to learn other languages than lisp eventually. 08:51:02 -!- pjdelport [n=pjd@dsl-243-1-136.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [] 08:51:07 -!- Guest76372 [n=mike@dslb-088-066-246-019.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 08:51:29 a1len: What for though? 08:51:34 -!- MONODA_ [n=danyhadd@broad2067.cyberia.net.lb] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:51:51 MONODA_ [n=danyhadd@broad2067.cyberia.net.lb] has joined #scheme 08:52:03 a1len: Am I to understand you correctly that scheme is your first encounter with programming? 08:52:23 a1len: If so I think you're in a very good spot. No luggage to get rid off :) 08:52:47 pjdelport [n=pjd@ampere.divmod.com] has joined #scheme 08:53:06 schme: what do you mean for what? my desire to learn programming? i don't know. i always wanted to be a novalist, but now it occurs to me that i suck at writing. programming is more practical for me. 08:54:15 yeah. i was studying python for a few days, but then i did a little reading around the net and talking on some irc channels and i switched over to scheme 08:54:22 Learn awk first. 08:54:43 a1len: I was curious why you feel you need to learn other languages. That's the "what for though?" :) 08:55:02 You'll probably spend a day or two at the task; the language is small. Then you can spend a couple of weeks getting good at it. Then you'll run into its limitations and want to use a different language. 08:55:08 It will be a good learning experience. 08:55:08 schme: oh :) 08:56:07 that. and i want to be a career programmer i think. i don't know what i want to do yet.. but i like reading and learning and solving and helping and so programming seems to me to be the best career fit for my personality. 08:56:08 a1len: Not that I recommend against learning other languages. Quite the opposite. A lot of 'em seem to me to pretty much be copies of each other with a lil' different syntax, so you can probably skip 95% of 'em. 08:56:39 Oh. 08:56:40 :) 08:57:09 That's marvelous! 08:57:49 i hear everywhere that programming itself is the art, and you need to learn everything to.. you know... assist in thinking of programming as one thing and transcend all of the languages 08:57:56 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #scheme 08:58:04 While we're on the subject of gnomon's sadomasochism, here's another pedagogical exercise: Write a portable Bourne shell script that accepts an arbitrary string as an argument, and passes as input to another program (e.g., at(8)) a shell script that passes the original argument to another command. 08:58:44 [at(1), even] 08:58:48 a1len: Some say it's an art, some say it's just work like everything else. Depends on yer outlook of things I guess. 08:58:50 gah 08:59:27 Note: The argument must be permitted to contain any data -- spaces, line breaks, quote marks of any sort, dollar signs, backticks, &c. 09:01:00 Riastradh: Of course 09:01:09 `What will this teach me?', you ask. It will teach you a valuable concept in programming, in computer science, in engineering, in life -- it will teach you the concept of brain damage. 09:02:34 Hehehe 09:02:38 Points off if you think you can pass the argument to `echo'. 09:02:49 schme: well, lucky for me i'm starting to think of it as art; if i thought of it as work i'd surely not want to pursue it at all. 09:03:36 but i'm just on week two so far. what? ten more years to go? 09:03:45 a1len: That's partly why I stay out of the whole working as a programmer ;) 09:04:08 a1len: ten years, half a year, 2 weeks, 30 years. 09:04:36 schme: i see. 09:04:39 a1len: Though I assure you that it will go faster with less talking about programming, and more actual programming ;) 09:05:30 What do you do for work schme? 09:06:26 (Other audacious souls than a1len, such as sjamaan or gnomon, are welcome to step up to my challenge.) 09:06:55 s/challenge/pedagogical exercise/1 # Erk! Blerk! Herk! 09:07:10 synx: Oh the usual. Welding and operating machines that do stuff to metal. 09:07:13 Riastradh: Been there, done that 09:07:21 It's painful as hell 09:07:23 synx: Atleast for a year or two more. 09:07:29 And I'm *still* not sure my code works in all cases 09:08:00 sjamaan, let's see it, then. I have several more hours to procrastinate before I'll drop dead of it. 09:08:33 Riastradh: Oh, you were directing all that at me? Your reference to pedagogy kinda intimated so.. but i didn't understand what you said so i duly disregarded it. 09:08:56 schme: Oh okay. 09:09:06 Riastradh: incoming DCC 09:09:26 synx: Combined with daytrading and online backgammon. :) 09:09:36 a1len, it's OK. You will probably be happier in a blissful world lacking the most craven of brain damage, at least for a little while. 09:09:54 Not working? 09:10:06 -!- MONODA_ [n=danyhadd@broad2067.cyberia.net.lb] has left #scheme 09:10:07 sjamaan, not a clue how that's supposed to work. (Hint: 10.0.0.2 is not on my local network.) 09:10:13 haha 09:10:58 Riastradh: Well, I'd take it on, but your instructions (especially considering I'm brand new to scheme)... well sir, we're not all members of MENSA. 09:11:06 Riastradh: http://sjamaan.ath.cx/temporary/sedfiles.sh 09:11:18 This program allows one to run sed on filenames 09:11:46 The result is then passed to 'mv' 09:12:57 (I probably should just have used xargs for doing this, but I didn't know about xargs at the time) 09:14:06 Your use of echo is a mistake, but you can simplify much of your meta-/bin/sh-ing with heredocs. 09:14:21 *sjamaan* nods 09:14:29 Why is echo a mistake? 09:15:21 The interpretation of echo is not standard, and varies between BSD and SysV. On SysV you're bound to lose completely; on BSD, what happens if the string is `-n'? 09:15:39 schumaml [i=c19b5f04@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-fe66487e3ddf147c] has joined #scheme 09:16:33 oi, echo -- -n doesn't work! 09:16:41 Indeed not. 09:17:55 I think that's a bug 09:18:01 It should be using getopt 09:21:13 You have another bug. Suppose I have a pathname that ends in newlines... 09:23:36 Is there an alternative editor to use with this text as opposed to the drscheme, which i was using with htdp? 09:23:54 i heard of lt scheme? 09:24:05 was it called 'lt'? i shall investigate. 09:24:53 -!- dakeyras [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-125-63.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 09:25:41 offby1` [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 09:27:23 In fact, I know of no portable way to collect the output of a command in a shell script and pass it as an argument. 09:29:36 -!- offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:29:49 (This is to be carefully distinguished from collecting the castrated output of a command.) 09:31:59 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:32:15 That output sounds like it would lack substance. 09:34:05 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 09:44:22 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #scheme 09:56:50 -!- p1dzkl [i=p1dzkl@2001:470:d0be:0:0:0:0:13] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:57:13 MONODA_ [n=danyhadd@broad2067.cyberia.net.lb] has joined #scheme 09:57:35 can someone give me a good tutorial for learning scheme, I cant find any 09:59:06 MONODA_: What language do you normally use? 10:08:32 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-177-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 10:13:33 schme: i thought your name was some permutation on the virgin mother of luke skywalker 10:13:48 a1len: if you can get through a couple chapters of sicp, you'll have done better than most 10:14:59 klutomeit 10:15:05 klutometis: Hhahaha! 10:15:06 woah 10:15:10 klutometis: The virgin father here :) 10:16:06 -!- underspecified [n=eric@clair12.naist.jp] has quit [] 10:16:43 i was going to say: it's written with the word 'allegro' printed under the title it seems. But so far i'm liking it. i'm actually watching yesterday's colbert report right now; i got to the point where fatigue takes over your mind 10:17:05 it was so bad that i read three pages before i realized that i wasn't retaining any of it. 10:17:31 er rather, fatigue has taken over mine. 10:18:37 -!- MONODA_ [n=danyhadd@broad2067.cyberia.net.lb] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:20:34 mmm, colbert 10:21:05 iion_tichy [n=Bjoern@e179069174.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 10:34:34 benny [n=benny@i577A0376.versanet.de] has joined #scheme 10:37:25 MONODA_ [n=danyhadd@broad2067.cyberia.net.lb] has joined #scheme 10:37:52 -!- MONODA_ [n=danyhadd@broad2067.cyberia.net.lb] has left #scheme 10:39:14 Alright guys. Goodnight. 10:42:19 z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #scheme 10:48:58 fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-084-059-039-040.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 10:51:06 p1dzkl [i=p1dzkl@2001:470:d0be:0:0:0:0:13] has joined #scheme 11:01:12 forcer [n=forcer@e179196092.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 11:08:00 umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has joined #scheme 11:09:20 schmalbe [n=bernhard@p549A0720.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 11:15:43 underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052011.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 11:15:50 -!- CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-61-150-59.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:19:27 -!- geckosenator [n=sean@c-24-8-193-190.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:23:35 name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #scheme 11:32:37 ventonegro [n=user@136.166.1.3] has joined #scheme 11:42:30 -!- underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052011.bbtec.net] has quit [] 11:43:49 underspecified 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14:06:39 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-247-170-199.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 14:07:34 sm [n=sm@pool-71-107-253-149.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 14:10:26 -!- athos_ [n=philipp@p54B861D9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:11:45 annodomini [n=lambda@64.30.3.122] has joined #scheme 14:18:42 synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has joined #scheme 14:31:30 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has joined #scheme 14:37:35 -!- vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has quit ["The incensed priests...continued to raise their voices, vituperating each other in bad Latin"] 14:37:52 -!- hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-247-170-199.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [] 14:40:06 -!- gigabytes [n=gigabyte@host240-239-dynamic.11-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [] 14:42:56 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 14:49:09 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:53:39 foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 14:54:45 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 14:55:01 Yobaz [n=yuha@78.167.107.162] has joined #scheme 14:59:03 Poeir_ [n=Poeir@c-98-222-133-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:59:30 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:59:56 ejs [n=eugen@80.91.178.218] has joined #scheme 15:00:53 vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has joined #scheme 15:01:08 npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has joined #scheme 15:01:08 -!- npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 15:01:43 -!- error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:02:01 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 15:05:22 tux91 [n=tux91@shpd-78-36-161-55.static.vologda.ru] has joined #scheme 15:05:43 what's the best compiler for linux? 15:05:53 tux91: chicken 15:06:45 annodomini [n=lambda@130.189.179.215] has joined #scheme 15:06:49 foof: thank you 15:07:21 -!- Poeir [n=Poeir@c-98-222-133-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:09:08 -!- schumaml [i=c19b5f04@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-fe66487e3ddf147c] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 15:10:05 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:11:04 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 15:13:07 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-2-212.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 15:13:08 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:14:01 can i use chicken as an interpreter? 15:14:06 csi / csc 15:14:07 yes 15:14:09 interpreter, compiler 15:14:27 also, some people would disagree, and not choose chicken, but scheme48, plt, bigloo, gauche, or any other ;) 15:14:28 foof: interesting. Why would you recommend chicken over gambit? 15:15:33 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 15:16:17 chandler: Easier to use, tons of modules, active community, faster compile times with not so notably different performance, and in the dev branch a real, native hygienic module system. 15:17:25 The benchmarks where Chicken suffers are those involving generic arithmetic. 15:17:58 -!- ecraven [n=nex@dyn167180.wlan.jku.at] has quit ["bbl"] 15:18:13 With fixnum arithmetic (usually all I need when optimizing) there's almost no difference. 15:18:46 For benchmarks involving call/cc and list processing, Chicken wins. 15:19:17 thanks guys 15:19:17 ... plus I know Chicken's internals a little too well and know how to trick the compiler into generating really tight code. 15:20:23 npe [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has joined #scheme 15:20:36 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 15:20:41 chicken's kinda weird in interactive mode, can't go left and right 15:21:00 tux91: M-x run-scheme, or rlwrap csi 15:21:39 foof: Fair enough. 15:24:05 -!- tux91 [n=tux91@shpd-78-36-161-55.static.vologda.ru] has left #scheme 15:29:35 npe_ [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has joined #scheme 15:32:00 jlongster [n=user@75.148.111.133] has joined #scheme 15:37:41 -!- npe [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:38:06 -!- npe_ [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 15:38:46 npe [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has joined #scheme 15:38:46 -!- npe [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has quit [Success] 15:39:22 npe [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has joined #scheme 15:46:12 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:46:44 mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 15:48:26 incubot: Thank God It's Friday 15:48:29 beautiful friday night, working on psets, yay 15:48:33 npe_ [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has joined #scheme 15:57:12 -!- npe [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:57:44 npe [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has joined #scheme 16:05:17 saccade_ [n=saccade@COMPTON-NINETY.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 16:06:03 -!- npe_ [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:06:55 npe_ [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has joined #scheme 16:09:31 wastrel [n=wastrel@nylug/member/wastrel] has joined #scheme 16:10:35 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@COMPTON-NINETY.MIT.EDU] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:12:09 dakeyras [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-125-63.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 16:13:49 schumaml [i=c19b5f04@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-2fa43e7883f479dc] has joined #scheme 16:13:59 -!- npe [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:15:24 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 16:16:07 npe [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has joined #scheme 16:23:16 -!- npe_ [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has quit [Success] 16:25:18 npe_ [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has joined #scheme 16:31:45 rudybot_: uptime 16:31:45 offby1`: I've been up for two weeks, four days; this tcp/ip connection has been up for five days, twenty-three hours 16:32:05 arcfide [n=arcfide@iub-vpn-206-180.noc.indiana.edu] has joined #scheme 16:32:28 rudybot_: quote 16:32:28 chandler: Let's write our own free software license. 16:32:32 -!- npe [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:33:49 -!- npe_ [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 16:33:59 -!- ejs [n=eugen@80.91.178.218] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:34:29 npe [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has joined #scheme 16:34:29 -!- npe [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 16:39:47 -!- dakeyras [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-125-63.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 16:40:11 rudybot_: unquote 16:40:29 eli: splice 16:40:37 eli: you rang? 16:40:44 *eli* splices 16:40:57 *Daemmerung* dices 16:41:09 Daemmerung: Yes, I had some random question, but I'm fine now... 16:41:27 *eli* quasiquotes his way to class 16:41:29 rudybot_: eval (random) 16:41:29 Daemmerung: ; Value: 0.1352484945980103 16:42:28 With rudybot_ and offby1` looking so stylish, I'm feeling frumpy. 16:42:58 -!- Daemmerung is now known as Daemmerung^ 16:43:40 npe [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has joined #scheme 16:44:51 well, I'm meeting friends for lunch. 16:44:53 gotta look good. 16:45:57 -!- sm [n=sm@pool-71-107-253-149.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #scheme 16:54:06 npe_ [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has joined #scheme 16:55:51 aaco [n=aaco@unaffiliated/aaco] has joined #scheme 16:59:51 bweaver [n=bweaver@67.161.236.94] has joined #scheme 16:59:58 -!- npe [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:00:28 btw, beware `alias csi='rlwrap csi'`, because then `csi -script output.scm > file.txt` will contain extra ^M characters at each end-of-line (i.e. LF -> CRLF). I don't know if there's a way to tell rlwrap to stop that, but it surprised me a couple times. 17:02:27 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-177-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:04:33 npe [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has joined #scheme 17:05:56 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B057C01.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 17:06:57 dakeyras [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-125-63.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 17:07:09 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-21-8.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 17:10:27 -!- npe_ [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:12:18 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-18-165.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:13:45 npe_ [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has joined #scheme 17:14:37 -!- Yobaz [n=yuha@78.167.107.162] has quit [] 17:14:40 -!- tizoc_ is now known as tizoc 17:15:49 BW^ [i=Miranda@94.191.153.136.bredband.tre.se] has joined #scheme 17:16:47 la_mer [n=la_mer@static-151-203-190-231.wma.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 17:17:09 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:17:21 -!- xz [n=ramana@c-98-228-42-177.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:18:35 -!- dakeyras [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-125-63.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 17:18:53 cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has joined #scheme 17:19:43 -!- Cale [n=Cale@CPE001c10c70239-CM000e5cdd834a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:20:54 -!- npe [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:25:02 gigabytes [n=gigabyte@host213-239-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 17:25:41 -!- vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has quit ["The incensed priests...continued to raise their voices, vituperating each other in bad Latin"] 17:26:51 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:28:15 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 17:32:56 -!- offby1` is now known as offby1 17:33:34 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@iub-vpn-206-180.noc.indiana.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:33:53 la_mer_ [n=la_mer@static-151-203-190-231.wma.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 17:34:15 -!- la_mer [n=la_mer@static-151-203-190-231.wma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:34:49 -!- schumaml [i=c19b5f04@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-2fa43e7883f479dc] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 17:35:36 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:36:04 cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has joined #scheme 17:37:56 vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has joined #scheme 17:45:13 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:48:24 jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless297.wireless.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 17:52:11 -!- bweaver [n=bweaver@67.161.236.94] has quit [] 17:54:25 -!- la_mer_ [n=la_mer@static-151-203-190-231.wma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:58:46 -!- gigabytes [n=gigabyte@host213-239-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [] 18:02:42 arcfide [n=arcfide@156-56-206-180.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has joined #scheme 18:04:32 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless297.wireless.utah.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:04:38 jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless297.wireless.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 18:14:08 dewily noted. 18:28:13 bweaver [n=bweaver@75.148.111.133] has joined #scheme 18:32:58 saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-68-12.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 18:34:13 xz [n=ramana@c-98-228-42-177.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:34:37 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-68-12.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 18:35:55 -!- maskd [i=maskd@unaffiliated/maskd] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:36:04 offby1: ping 18:36:15 plop 18:36:22 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["he he he"] 18:36:28 (that's the sound of a dropped packet, by the way ) 18:36:33 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-177-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 18:36:47 Bah, how do I specify a hex number in literal syntax? 18:37:09 rudybot_: eval #xdeadbeef 18:37:10 offby1: ; Value: 3735928559 18:37:17 Merci. 18:39:43 exexex [n=chatzill@85.96.88.42] has joined #scheme 18:41:04 melito [n=melito@70.99.250.82] has joined #scheme 18:48:18 error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 18:50:04 -!- vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has quit ["The incensed priests...continued to raise their voices, vituperating each other in bad Latin"] 18:54:33 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:01:28 -!- fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-084-059-039-040.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:01:38 rudybot_: eval #\udeadbeef 19:01:39 zbigniew: error: eval:1:0: read: bad character constant #\udead 19:02:04 rudybot_: eval (integer->char #xdeadbeef) 19:02:05 zbigniew: error: integer->char: expects argument of type ; given 3735928559 19:02:38 lol 19:02:52 rudybot_: eval (integer->char #x03bb) 19:02:52 zbigniew: ; Value: #\ 19:07:14 rudybot_: eval (number->string 3735928559 16) 19:07:15 offby1: ; Value: "deadbeef" 19:09:49 geckosenator [n=sean@c-24-8-193-190.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:11:18 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@3ad50e34.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:11:33 rudybot_: eval #\x3bb 19:11:33 Daemmerung^: error: reference to undefined identifier: 3bb 19:11:51 rudybot_: eval #\x03bb 19:11:52 Daemmerung^: error: reference to undefined identifier: 03bb 19:12:15 JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182ddad4.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 19:12:19 rudybot_: eval #\u03bb 19:12:19 Daemmerung^: ; Value: #\ 19:12:25 lol 19:12:39 i did that exact thing the other day :p 19:12:45 I still had 24 lowercase Latin letters to try. 19:13:07 -!- Daemmerung^ is now known as Daemmerung 19:13:18 AtomicToad [i=JohnnyL@ool-182ddad4.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 19:13:24 plus a z ogonkiem 19:13:39 -!- Guest6282 [n=mike@dslb-088-066-232-026.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:16:59 Only on your keyboard, zbig zboy. 19:17:18 rudybot: eval #\u105 19:17:34 rudybot_: eval #\u105 19:17:38 -!- rudybot_ [n=luser@li11-10.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:18:28 -!- ctsprsrcl [n=ctsprsrc@206.251.250.215] has quit [Client Quit] 19:18:28 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 19:18:47 egads 19:18:52 Hmm... combining character? 19:19:24 irc [i=JohnnyL@ool-182ddad4.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 19:19:32 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@156-56-206-180.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:19:33 no, u+105 is definitely a z ogonkiem 19:19:52 -!- irc is now known as Guest65139 19:20:40 when did rudybot drop off? did I kill him? I have PARTS and QUITS ignored 19:20:50 u kilt him daid 19:21:02 After you asked him to read and evaluate the text `#\u105'. 19:21:02 -!- Guest65139 [i=JohnnyL@ool-182ddad4.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:21:05 (I checked in the logs.) 19:21:13 (Him? It? Her? Eir?) 19:21:16 -!- AtomicToad [i=JohnnyL@ool-182ddad4.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 19:21:33 Odd. I wonder why. 19:23:08 the uniheisenbug... 19:23:27 "I've never trusted zbigniew....and I never will. I can never forgive him for the death of my boy." 19:24:18 U+105 is a ogonkiem, but Rudybot couldn't bear to tell zbigniew . 19:25:01 So of course rudybot did the honorable thing and abended. 19:26:06 tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has joined #scheme 19:26:23 incubot: #\u0105 19:26:47 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 19:27:00 incubot: (display #\u0105) 19:27:01 # 19:28:21 -!- error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:29:26 -!- BW^ [i=Miranda@94.191.153.136.bredband.tre.se] has quit ["Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org"] 19:30:36 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has joined #scheme 19:32:14 mike [n=mike@dslb-088-064-146-178.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 19:32:44 -!- mike is now known as Guest96045 19:35:09 incubot: #\x105 19:37:41 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #scheme 19:39:50 incubot: \x105; 19:40:25 who's incubot? 19:40:42 incubot: (display \x105;) 19:40:42 Error: unterminated list 19:44:38 gigabytes [n=gigabyte@host94-175-dynamic.60-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 19:45:13 incubot is all the rage 19:45:52 error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 19:45:52 -!- error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:47:10 error_de1eloper_ [n=errordev@78.86.1.110] has joined #scheme 19:51:37 -!- error_de1eloper_ [n=errordev@78.86.1.110] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:51:57 error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 19:53:38 Everybody's doin' the incubot 19:54:49 incubot: dance! 19:54:54 incubot: botsnack? 19:54:56 dance* 19:54:58 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:55:33 give minion a botsnack now 19:55:50 incubot: only because minion deserves it 19:55:52 No doubt MIT will gave your complaint the attention it deserves. 19:55:54 minion: BOTSNACK! 19:55:55 thanks! 19:55:58 minion: you're welcome 19:55:58 what's up? 19:56:02 minion: BOTSNACK! 19:56:02 thanks! 19:59:32 -!- jlongster [n=user@75.148.111.133] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:00:24 Axioplase [n=Pied@89.248.206-77.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #scheme 20:00:53 -!- cpfr [n=cf@cpe-76-171-165-212.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:01:02 -!- dirchh [n=user@jimi.Informatik.Uni-Tuebingen.De] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:01:06 -!- schmalbe [n=bernhard@p549A0720.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:01:25 *leppie* finally wins his battle with dynamic-wind 20:04:42 *leppie* retreats, ambush!! 20:10:42 -!- gigabytes [n=gigabyte@host94-175-dynamic.60-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [] 20:11:22 -!- kniu [n=kniu@LEMON.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:11:50 kniu [n=kniu@CMU-301252.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 20:18:48 leppie: Implemented it in IronScheme? 20:19:12 trying to make it work correctly with continuations 20:19:49 i think i am not understanding it correctly/enough 20:20:04 or too much beer/long week/etc blah 20:20:37 -!- Guest96045 [n=mike@dslb-088-064-146-178.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:20:45 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:23:58 leppie: :-) 20:27:19 elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has joined #scheme 20:28:14 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:29:19 kib2 [n=chatzill@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 20:34:31 What's going wrong, leppie? 20:35:24 what do scheme developers think of ruby? 20:35:58 JohnnyL: It does not make me happy 20:36:26 It's slow, eats outrageous amounts of memory and its community has some bad habits 20:36:38 it has a nice name 20:36:39 And the language has a couple of things I don't like 20:37:21 Large number of different syntax to write the same construct, very lax and vaguely defined parsing rules 20:37:27 And odd scoping rules 20:37:47 hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #scheme 20:38:02 Other than that: it's nicely dynamic and you can do a lot with it you can also do with Scheme 20:38:03 abstract rigidity 20:40:12 Riastradh: im just trying to understand the semantics, but not thinking too clearly, tomorrow is another day :) 20:40:46 if i look at long enough it will come to me 20:40:55 leppie: Stare it down! 20:44:53 -!- kib2 [n=chatzill@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:50:43 -!- error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:50:44 vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has joined #scheme 20:50:53 -!- kniu [n=kniu@CMU-301252.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:51:11 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 20:57:08 Cale_ [n=Cale@CPE001c10c70239-CM000e5cdd834a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 20:58:24 -!- Cale_ is now known as Cale 20:58:55 -!- umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has quit [] 21:00:21 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 21:01:46 -!- Cale is now known as Cale_ 21:02:00 -!- Cale_ is now known as Cale 21:06:11 okay 21:06:15 hmm... 21:06:36 Is there a channel for plt? 21:06:52 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:07:57 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 21:08:14 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:09:00 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 21:09:33 Yes, synx: #scheme. Same for Chicken, for Scheme48, for MIT Scheme -- for any Scheme-related subject. 21:09:50 oh okay 21:09:58 plt's bitmap% is broken :( 21:10:19 Test case? 21:10:23 I can't think of any other explanation... 21:11:04 https://synx.us.to/feepcode/games/isometric/maketiny.ss 21:11:44 The two files that result not only are they not the color in the argb pixels, but they are two different colors. 21:13:56 ...and now they're all the same color. Gah! Still not what I want though, but maybe plt isn't broken... 21:14:04 kib2 [n=chatzill@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 21:14:12 meh, broken https 21:14:16 The origin is <0,0>, not <1,1>. 21:15:41 Yeah... the color wasn't being set, so it was just random. 21:16:21 I thought it might be <1,1> because <0,0> wasn't right at all. 21:17:12 Okay, so crisis averted it's saving them all as the same (wrong) color. 21:17:32 in RGB, the color goes from #FFAADD to #111111 21:18:38 ventonegro: I can't afford to pay off the Verisign cartel, so sue me. :p 21:19:02 synx: :-P 21:19:37 The alpha mask is getting completely ignored, even in the png where the docs say it gets saved. 21:21:01 what's scheme solution to building web apps? 21:21:24 wait, hm... 21:21:54 JohnnyL: http://chicken.wiki.br/spiffy 21:23:14 JohnnyL: http://docs.plt-scheme.org/web-server/ 21:29:14 ok I think I got it figured out. 21:29:25 The first set-argb-pixels sets the pixels to #ffaadd like they should, but ignores the alpha. The second sets the pixels to #111111 and ignores the alpha. 21:29:57 synx thanks 21:33:39 "Thus, the same pixels byte string is in general used with two bitmaps, one (the main image) for the pixel values and one (the mask) for the alpha values." 21:36:13 benny99 [n=bebenny@p5486CF2E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 21:40:36 Yes, so it stores the alpha values into the mask for that bitmap. 21:41:10 Oh, you mean I have to create two bitmaps and explicitly set one as the mask? 21:45:28 -!- aaco [n=aaco@unaffiliated/aaco] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:45:33 darn it, that worked... 21:46:33 okay so https://synx.us.to/feepcode/games/isometric/maketiny.ss now works perfectly. Thanks! 21:47:34 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:48:22 cpfr [n=cf@dynamic-162-112.usc.edu] has joined #scheme 21:51:33 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-61-150-59.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:54:53 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [] 21:55:06 -!- hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:07:22 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-177-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:08:18 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [] 22:11:14 axolans [n=hellues@85.102.168.57] has joined #scheme 22:11:22 i need help about assoc 22:11:45 are there someone who explain me what assoc is in drscheme 22:13:25 -!- benny99 [n=bebenny@p5486CF2E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:13:30 specbot: r5rs assoc 22:13:38 http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_idx_438 22:19:07 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:32:44 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:33:58 -!- npe_ [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:34:22 -!- CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-61-150-59.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:35:00 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 22:35:05 actually i waonna ask one more question 22:35:22 i try to write fibonacci number (memorized version) with assoc 22:35:35 how can i do that can you give an idea :D 22:38:50 axolans: memoise the computed values in an a-list? 22:39:43 -!- kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has left #scheme 22:39:53 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 22:40:10 sorry 22:40:15 yes memoised 22:40:31 memoised version of the recursive fib procedure, using assoc. 22:40:52 how can i write program (memoised) 22:41:02 i dont have any idead about this concept 22:41:39 axolans: save the already calculated values in an a-list and retrieve them with assoc 22:42:39 a-list 22:42:52 what is a-list 22:43:01 a-list is a special list 22:43:23 or just a list like '(1 2 3 4) 22:44:04 it's a list of pairs 22:44:10 you said you write fib number with list 22:44:19 list of pairs 22:44:21 hmm 22:44:32 '((a . 0) (b . 1) (c . 2)) 22:45:44 an a-list is an association list 22:46:09 hmm 22:48:08 -!- synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:49:45 maskd [i=maskd@unaffiliated/maskd] has joined #scheme 22:50:34 axolans, are you clear on what memoization means in the more general sense? 22:51:25 GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-235-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:52:22 synx, that web tutorial is awesome. thanks. that has to be the best implementation of a web based platform I've seen yet. 22:52:38 -!- GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-235-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has left #scheme 22:53:02 "For a reverse engineer, Continuation Passing Style means the end of civilianization [sic] as we know it." 22:53:11 JohnnyL: I like it too, plan on using it somewhere along the line. It is a bit memory greedy though, storing all those continuations and such. 22:53:22 Daemmerung: ? 22:53:52 Daemmerung: I always knew that I was causing the end of the world as we know it. 22:54:04 Yay! My texture is loading perfectly, with alpha blending! In sgl! 22:54:06 A quote from an amusing paper turned up by that wretched hive of scum and villainy, reddit. 22:54:09 http://www.nnl-labs.com/cblog/index.php?/archives/2-Why-Did-CHICKEN-Cross-the...-oh-nevermind.html 22:54:21 *synx* reads 22:54:27 -!- ventonegro [n=user@136.166.1.3] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:54:27 synx: Awesome. 22:54:38 ventonegro [n=user@136.166.1.3] has joined #scheme 22:54:55 synx, does it reuse those continuations for other users? 22:54:58 Actual paper is in MS Word format, sorry. 22:54:58 synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has joined #scheme 22:55:48 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:56:09 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-236-93-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 22:56:24 -!- axolans [n=hellues@85.102.168.57] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:56:50 JohnnyL: other users...? Only one user can run a process I'm pretty sure. 22:57:57 synx, oh do you think it's more memory greedy than Ruby On Rails? 22:58:08 I think the most difficult thing for that reverse engineer was not CPS so much, but that scheme handles its own stack(s), and doesn't use the cdecl C stack sort of calling convention. 22:58:17 JohnnyL: Not likely. 22:58:36 synx: I'm not sure what you mean by that. 22:58:37 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 22:58:44 What was *really* confusing him was Cheney on the MTA. 22:58:54 I mean that even if you did (a (b (c (d e)))) it wouldn't have a retn in there. 22:59:20 axodlans [n=hellues@85.102.168.57] has joined #scheme 22:59:25 sorry ventonegro 22:59:37 i have temprature problem sometimes 100 c 22:59:53 can you give an simple example to me 23:00:11 It would just get the result of d, and pass it to c abstractly, maybe even without using the stack at all. It is all tail-calls after all... 23:00:19 because i dont have an idead how can i implement a. 0 b . c . 2 23:00:25 for fibonacci number 23:00:41 axodlans: do want an example of what? 23:00:44 hmm 23:00:47 Ugh. 23:00:49 synx: consider (begin (a) (b)). 23:00:50 memoised 23:00:50 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o chandler 23:01:05 axodlans: be more specific :-) 23:01:05 memoised with assoc 23:01:05 -!- chandler has set mode +b %*!*hellues@* 23:01:10 -!- chandler has set mode -o chandler 23:01:12 Daemmerung: okay... 23:01:20 ventonegro: Nothing to see here. You can move along. 23:01:32 -!- wastrel [n=wastrel@nylug/member/wastrel] has quit ["bye now happy friday"] 23:01:55 axodlans: that would spoil the fun, wouldn't it? 23:02:16 when it leaves (a) it doesn't need to return at all, can just use jmp to get to wherever b is, or however they do it. 23:02:58 -!- axodlans [n=hellues@85.102.168.57] has left #scheme 23:03:50 chandler: well, nuts -- there goes my plan of learning CL by entering #lisp and typing HOW IS BABBY FORMED? 23:04:02 -!- Mr_Awesome [n=eric@isr5956.urh.uiuc.edu] has quit ["aunt jemima is the devil!"] 23:04:22 noxelar [n=xasl@85.102.168.57] has joined #scheme 23:04:32 what is funny ventonegro 23:05:04 Grr. 23:05:13 Whack-a-mole. 23:05:14 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o chandler 23:05:20 noxelar: a drunk elephant 23:05:26 -!- chandler has set mode +b *!*@85.102.168.57 23:06:41 -!- chandler [n=chandler@opendarwin/developer/chandler] has been kicked from #scheme 23:07:14 -!- chandler has set mode -bbb %hellues!*@* %hellues*!*@* %*!*hellues@* 23:07:22 -!- chandler has set mode +b *hellues*!*@* 23:07:28 -!- chandler has set mode +b *!*hellues*@* 23:08:25 chandler: then i guess you sympathize with socrates; his argument was that arete, but not techne, was unteachable 23:08:39 even this cat might have been immune to techne, though 23:08:49 Heh. 23:09:04 I have to step out now. Would someone else like to play whack-a-mole if he should happen to return? 23:09:31 *chandler* nominates klutometis and Daemmerung 23:09:31 don't tempt me - I have work to do ^_^ 23:09:35 -!- chandler has set mode +o klutometis 23:09:38 -!- chandler has set mode +o Daemmerung 23:09:48 Don't abuse it, or I'll be very cross! 23:09:51 -!- chandler has set mode -o chandler 23:10:15 ok coast is clear, no kickban everyone! 23:10:23 j/k (of course) 23:10:23 Oh, man. Dad left town and left me the keys to the liquor cabinet! 23:12:44 *klutometis* screen-caps this moment, where romulus and remus preside over rome 23:12:51 AtomicToad [i=JohnnyL@ool-182ddad4.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 23:13:26 More like Abbott and Costello, I'd say. Or maybe Bill and Ted. 23:13:35 heh 23:14:47 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:18:08 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 23:20:24 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 23:20:40 -!- JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182ddad4.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:20:46 -!- AtomicToad is now known as JohnnyL 23:25:51 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [] 23:29:19 -!- Axioplase [n=Pied@89.248.206-77.rev.gaoland.net] has quit ["leaving"] 23:35:51 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:36:07 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 23:39:20 annodomini [n=lambda@216-107-218-130.Boloco.static.cust.seg.net] has joined #scheme 23:44:47 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:45:19 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 23:51:00 viocizgd [n=viocizgd@209.216.196.2] has joined #scheme 23:51:01 -!- viocizgd [n=viocizgd@209.216.196.2] has quit [K-lined] 23:52:33 -!- kib2 [n=chatzill@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 23:53:42 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 23:54:17 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-61-150-59.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:57:12 -!- a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has quit ["Lost terminal"]