00:02:43 -!- bzzbzz [n=franco@modemcable027.191-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 00:04:13 BW^-: having left OO-land, i'm loathe to sully scheme with anything more than records 00:04:58 klutometis: what do you mean? 00:05:29 BW^-: srfi-9 records are the closest i come to objects 00:05:49 did you say that you don't like scheme? 00:06:34 BW^-: i think klutometis wants to say that oo system is to constraining... unless one has full clos with mop perhaps. 00:06:46 sladegen: right 00:07:11 sladegen: that's a pretty good assessment 00:07:40 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B054E34.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 00:09:30 The adjective is `loath', klutometis. 00:10:06 ah.. right 00:13:51 Riastradh: I am porting rbtree.scm from MIT Scheme to run some Skip List tests, but I'm running into a bit of trouble. 00:14:12 Riastradh: Running a set of sample insertions leads to a tree that is only sparsely populated from the original inputs. 00:14:29 That is, only around 10% of the values make it through and into the list of many insertions. 00:14:51 I am hoping you have something to say on the matter that would lead me in the right direction. 00:15:48 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-70-244-122-30.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit ["I'm big in Japan"] 00:16:11 Riastradh: Nevermind. 00:19:48 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 00:23:04 -!- Nshag [i=user@99.a2c-250-158.astra2connect.com] has quit ["Quitte"] 00:25:29 Riastradh: thanks; loath/loathe must fall into the class of loose/lose-type solecisms 00:32:15 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:37:59 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 00:41:35 -!- MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has left #scheme 01:01:31 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless36.wireless.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:02:32 anyone having a suspend/resume to pass? :-) 01:03:55 vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has joined #scheme 01:06:09 BW^-: What do you mean? 01:07:17 i want a function (spawn p) that calls p with a parameter that's a procedure, that when i call it, it suspends the execution of p as started spawned by spawn. spawn returns a resume function, so that when i call it, p resumes where it suspended. 01:07:29 just a simple one to give an example. 01:08:05 BW^-: I just recently wrote a pedagogical Coroutine procedure for two procedures which is similar if you want to see something like that. 01:08:26 The idea was to clarify continuations to a classmate. 01:08:48 It was quick, it may be dirty, and it's only half useful, but you could check it out. 01:10:56 hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD125054017176.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 01:13:02 Hentaixp [n=Techsalv@about/windows/staff/HentaiXP] has joined #scheme 01:13:42 sili [n=sili@222.127.53.204] has joined #scheme 01:15:12 sure! 01:16:54 -!- hemulen [n=hemulen@cpe-069-134-114-252.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["He rode off into the sunset. . ."] 01:18:02 arcfide: on way? 01:19:27 -!- melito [n=melito@70.99.250.82] has quit ["Leaving..."] 01:19:57 BW^-: Let me know what you think. 01:19:59 BW^- can you give an example of the spawn? 01:20:13 BW^- (spawn (lambda (?) ???)) 01:21:12 (spawn (lambda (suspend) do something and call suspend)) => ? 01:21:20 (spawn (lambda (suspend) (display "Hi!\n") (suspend) (display "Second iteration.\n") (suspend) (display "Third, now returning.\n"))) 01:21:31 how do you resume? 01:21:42 (define resume (spawn (lambda (suspend) (display "Hi!\n") (suspend) (display "Second iteration.\n") (suspend) (display "Third, now returning.\n")))) 01:21:44 (resume) (resume) 01:21:51 ah okay 01:22:06 I'm sure arcfide's program will be enlightening, but I can write this spawn for you too 01:22:14 would be cool! 01:23:47 does suspend take you back to the beginning of the spawn? 01:24:13 xz: I actually implemented basically what he needs in the coroutines. 01:24:30 arcfide I figured as much 01:24:40 I want to try doing it for myself too 01:24:49 xz: Good exercise. 01:26:07 BW^-: The coroutine code is used just by writing (coroutine add1 add2). 01:26:20 I forgot to remove debugging in that. 01:26:31 BW^- here you go 01:26:41 can I paste 10 lines here? or where? 01:26:42 wee! where? 01:26:51 well you can on a paste, or to me directly if you want 01:26:59 lisppaste: url 01:26:59 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste. 01:27:09 Might as well make it on list. 01:27:13 I am sure it would be interesting. 01:28:03 xz pasted "spawn" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69166 01:28:39 BW^-: In my coroutine code, I use parameters, so you'll want those. What you're interested in mostly is the MAKE-SWITCH command. 01:28:44 hmm I think that should be a letrec or let* 01:28:48 petite didn't complain though 01:29:48 uh *** ERROR IN #, (console)@428.1 -- Unbound variable: resume 01:29:52 yeah 01:29:54 make the let a let* 01:29:59 1> ,b 01:29:59 0 # (console)@428:1 (set! resume (lambda () (h3#k #f))) 01:29:59 1 # (console)@441:24 (h1#suspend) 01:30:20 BW^-: What Scheme are you using? 01:30:25 gambit 01:30:36 I rely on LETREC* semantics of internal DEFINEs, I think. 01:30:43 npe [n=npe@66.112.249.32] has joined #scheme 01:30:53 success! 01:31:05 xz: is it ok if i use this code in whatever purposes? :) 01:31:18 BW^- sure. as long as you change the let to a let* so it actually works =P 01:31:33 BW^- and try to understand it too 01:31:41 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-95-99.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:31:46 "\\o\\\n" <-- tricky string to parse when you have to consider string continuations 01:32:13 ? 01:32:48 rudybot: eval "\\0\\\n" 01:32:48 xz: ; Value: "\\0\\\n" 01:32:51 rudybot: eval "\\o\\\n" 01:32:52 xz: ; Value: "\\o\\\n" 01:32:55 ... 01:33:05 lets try something else 01:34:05 Riastradh: Ping. 01:34:06 hmm, unsuccess... 01:34:14 Hrm... 01:34:22 Well this ain't cool. 01:34:31 Does anyone want to do some benchmarking with me? :-) 01:34:49 rudybot" eval "o\\n" 01:34:56 rudybot: eval "o\\n" 01:34:56 Someone who has Riastradh's Skip-List code and a working tree or the like, such as RB Trees. 01:34:58 leppie: ; Value: "o\\n" 01:35:16 gotta use a colon 01:35:33 leppie what are you getting at? 01:36:07 you know the string continuation char at the end of a line? 01:36:41 leppie: You mentioned that continuations were confusing to you, but you've implemented a Scheme, do you still consider them confusing after having implemented them? 01:37:14 i do have noted the limitation of IronScheme's continuations 01:37:35 what confuse me is the stuff i cannot do with them in IronScheme 01:37:36 I didn't know about the string continuation char, no. example? 01:37:52 xz in R6RS 01:37:57 leppie can you do less with continuations in IronScheme than in Ikarus Scheme? 01:38:06 "blah blah\ 01:38:10 asdjlasdlklk" 01:38:19 leppie does rudybot know about this? 01:38:36 xz: yes, Ironscheme < Ikarus 01:39:01 in terms of many things :) 01:39:08 leppie is there an example? (of a program that doesn't work in ironscheme) 01:40:00 sure, anywhere you use set! to save a continuation will not work if you try re-invoke it later 01:40:11 Ouch. 01:40:18 ah ok 01:40:36 but how often do you really need to do that? 01:40:48 leppie: You mean, save a continuation and then go to some place that will not eventually return to that continuation by itself? 01:40:50 there are normally ways around it 01:40:59 leppie: I actually do just that in my coroutine code. 01:41:17 leppie yeah the spawn code I just gave to BW^- set!s continuations and reuses them 01:41:31 I do not do it explicitly, but I use parameters to track two states running in parallel. 01:41:37 Sorry, running in alternation. 01:41:43 arcfide: i have threads at my disposal 01:42:00 leppie: How would you implement coroutines? 01:42:19 Would you just create two threads and then pass locks and mutexes back and forth? 01:42:20 threads can be an alternative to a lot of continuation applications... 01:42:33 i have no idea :p i dont even know what they suppose to do, or more importantly why i would need them 01:42:37 wee, i just wrote a 53 A4 introductory guide to Scheme. 01:42:53 we spell that "whee" around here. 01:42:57 They allow you to interleave the execution of two procedures in a controlled way. 01:43:00 cool BW^- :) 01:43:10 you gonna publish it? 01:43:14 leppie so how do you implement continuations in ironscheme? 01:43:21 BW^-: Do publish, for comments and scathing criticism. ;-) 01:43:22 yes. dunno when though. 01:43:33 right, i would appreciate to pass it around in private right now. 01:43:38 I just use exceptions for non-local exits 01:43:47 and then put a link to it on Scheme on wikipedia when published. :) 01:43:53 leppie is it a compiler or interpreter? 01:44:00 but still looking at how to handle full continuations 01:44:07 it compiles 01:44:40 to IL, and pretty much uses what I can get from .NET 01:45:12 CPS still looks like the only way for me to solve this problem 01:45:13 i'm thinking it would probably be instructive to cps ironscheme to get real continuations 01:45:35 exceptions for non-local exits isn't easily extendable up to saveable continuations 01:45:40 yeah, but i dont really understand the transformation well yet :( 01:45:40 as far as I know 01:45:55 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 01:45:58 i will also save a lot of stack space 01:46:12 jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:46:19 leppie do you know how to cps simple programs? 01:46:24 at least .NET has full support for tail calls, so 1 less worie 01:46:48 i understand a little, but i need to read more about it 01:47:31 but most of the explantions uses stuff to explain that i dont understand! doh 01:47:31 leppie i'm sure you could see a lot of cps examples on here if you ask 01:48:19 is there a collaborative pastebin kind of thing somewhere? 01:48:21 dont worry, i'll get it one day :) 01:48:27 oh I guess there's private chat 01:49:05 i can pretty much understand the example on wikipedia 01:49:42 and i have looked at the stuff oleg did with call/cc 01:49:59 from the example on wikipedia you should be able to do the same thing to your ironscheme code 01:50:00 -!- npe [n=npe@66.112.249.32] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 01:50:24 npe [i=npe@66.112.249.32] has joined #scheme 01:50:51 i am hoping to do something like partial cps application first 01:51:48 what does that mean? 01:52:20 arcfide: guide emailed. 01:52:33 well like just apply cps where needed 01:52:48 is that possible? 01:53:40 maybe im just scared of it :) 01:53:45 it is kind of possible, but not really 01:53:59 anything you don't cps has to be treated as a primitive operation... yeah I guess you can do that 01:54:05 so i assume it's all or nothing? 01:54:25 and i still have a ton of primitives written in C# :( 01:54:33 i think you can partially cps things. i think that will be fine. 01:55:00 when you're less scared of cps you'll just do more of it anyway probably. 01:55:05 i have been trying to rewrite primitives back to scheme 01:55:20 by "primitive" i mean something like "atomic" 01:55:31 i.e. even though it looks like a function call, you're just treating it as a value 01:55:40 well not even primitives, just non scheme procs 01:55:56 Lemonator [n=kniu@CMU-301252.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 01:56:08 for example in the wikipedia article 01:56:16 they make the sqrt function take the continuation k 01:56:26 yeah 01:56:29 but you could have done (k (sqrt x2py2)) instead of (sqrt x2py2 k) 01:56:37 and that would mean treating the sqrt function as "atomic" or "simple" or whatever 01:56:47 that would be a partial cps - everything but the sqrt function would be cpsed 01:57:05 -!- sm [n=sm@pool-71-104-95-83.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 01:57:13 ok, maybe i shall look at cps this weekend then :) 01:57:59 i'd love to offer any assistance with that if i'm around 01:58:16 thanks :) 02:00:17 *leppie* is like htf am i gonna do this... 02:01:36 is ironscheme written in c#? 02:01:55 well some of it 02:02:03 and what else? 02:02:21 the compiler and runtime and helper procs 02:02:35 i use psyntax 02:02:46 and then the rest is implemented in scheme 02:05:31 -!- kniu [n=kniu@LEMON.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:08:09 mmm, ok i see what is happening kinda in the transform 02:10:24 interesting 02:11:05 my emitted .NET bytecode looks very similar to the cps version 02:11:18 dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:11:19 given the input as the normal version 02:17:13 arcfide: pong 02:17:16 (email) 02:17:35 Riastradh: I was just prepping the email now. 02:17:35 leppie, what has SET! got to do with continuation reification? 02:17:52 Riastradh: would you prefer to have the results of the tests alone, or all the accompanying files as well? 02:18:17 Do you plan to publish this information on the web? 02:18:38 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:18:40 Riastradh: Not until you have a chance to provide any feedback about the testing methods and possible means of improving Skip List and RB Tree. 02:18:48 well that was an example 02:19:22 leppie, do you perhaps mean that your implementation CWCC doesn't work, however you try to use it? 02:20:16 no, it works for non-local exits, i just cant go back there 02:20:35 Then it doesn't work. 02:21:05 ok 02:21:42 arcfide, send whatever you feel to be relevant. 02:23:54 Riastradh: Sent. 02:24:43 Received. (Why aren't the files attachments?) 02:24:58 Riastradh: Sorry, laziness on my part. I can upload the files. 02:30:27 Riastradh: I emailed you the archive of the files as I use them. 02:37:16 Riastradh: I will try to send you updated benchmarks tomorrow or some time after that. I'm going to go offline now. 02:39:48 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-14-208-195.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Vale!"] 02:41:34 -!- BW^- [i=Miranda@94.191.140.181.bredband.tre.se] has quit ["Miranda IM! 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-!- error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:30:05 -!- vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:32:03 -!- kniu [n=kniu@CMU-301252.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:42:53 fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-084-059-239-232.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 13:08:12 SugarGlider1 [n=stevie@220.245.104.218] has joined #scheme 13:08:32 -!- SugarGlider [n=stevie@220.245.104.218] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:10:14 someone finally gave an arc post-mortem: http://www.arclanguage.org/item?id=8462 13:10:20 i was wondering what happened 13:11:54 -!- SugarGlider1 [n=stevie@220.245.104.218] has quit [Client Quit] 13:16:27 I am trying to set up a plt web server so that it serves my servlets from a specific path. How can I do that? 13:16:39 -!- travisbemann is now known as travis|away 13:16:58 I tried specifying a config file as -f in plt-web-server, but it gets ignored. 13:17:05 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:17:47 Nshag [i=user@99.a2c-250-158.astra2connect.com] has joined #scheme 13:23:19 -!- mike___ [n=mike@dslb-088-066-229-160.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:37:10 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-95-99.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:47:16 tripwyre [n=tripwyre@117.193.166.137] has joined #scheme 13:57:36 -!- aardvarc [i=tgAardva@student3113.student.nau.edu] has quit ["AOL: 200 years of excellence. Then the computer was invented."] 14:01:38 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 14:10:39 -!- sm [n=sm@pool-71-104-95-83.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 14:11:21 sm [n=sm@pool-71-104-95-83.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 14:22:44 nvteighen [n=nvteighe@25.Red-88-8-249.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 14:23:01 hi 14:25:36 hi 14:25:36 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 14:26:04 elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has joined #scheme 14:26:49 can anybody please tell if there's a way to change the "1 ]=>" prompt at MIT/GNU Scheme? 14:29:56 -!- sm is now known as sm-om 14:34:01 schme_ [n=marcus@c83-254-190-108.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 14:39:00 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 14:43:33 -!- sm-om [n=sm@pool-71-104-95-83.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 14:47:06 -!- schme [n=marcus@c83-254-190-108.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:49:39 dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:50:25 no idea 14:52:55 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 14:53:18 well, maybe writing an embedded interpreter... :p 14:53:18 Why do you want to change it, nvteighen? 14:53:32 Or: why aren't you interacting with Edwin or xscheme.el, anyway? 14:54:43 I'm writing a game that should work by entering procedures in the REPL... in some sense, in a highly specific Scheme-dialect 14:55:02 *Riastradh* blinks. 14:55:08 And I think "1 ]=> " is somewhat annoying... A prompt with the game's name would be nicer. 14:56:38 wingo-tp [n=wingo@22.Red-79-156-144.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 14:58:36 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:58:38 OK, well, you can make a simple REPL with your own prompt by evaluating (READ-EVAL-PRINT ), where the argument may be the symbol INHERIT to make the new REPL use the enclosing REPL's environment. 14:59:42 -!- dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:59:56 Ok, I'm trying it now... 15:00:58 Riastradh: thanks, that's exactly what I wanted! 15:02:37 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:02:54 Peruse runtime/rep.scm for further incantations that may amuse you. Let me know if you have any questions, although I'm off right now to run some errands, and shall return in an hour or two. 15:03:33 kryptos23 [n=kryptos@freenet/developer/kryptos] has joined #scheme 15:03:53 Ok, perfect. 15:06:53 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-59-233.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 15:07:35 nvteighen: I doubt I'd enjoy playing a game that forced me to type at a REPL ... unless the typing was limited to a few characters at a time. 15:08:19 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 15:08:24 Well... yeah... but it inherits the power of Scheme at lets you redefine everything, extend it, etc. 15:08:28 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 15:08:50 Look at https://launchpad.net/freetruco (but don't expect too much, there's still lot to do) 15:10:45 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-96-186-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:12:13 vasa [n=vasa@mm-99-186-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #scheme 15:13:14 "inherits the power of scheme" is good. "Typing a bunch at the repl" is, in my humble opinion, bad. 15:13:35 If lots of people start using it, I'd seriously consider letting them use Edwin as a front end 15:13:54 that way you can create a reasonably large form piecemeal, and only eval it when you're happy with it. 15:14:01 That's not a bad idea. 15:14:24 I guess you can load the module from Edwin instead of using the shell script... 15:14:40 ...or change the script to load Edwin (or give you options) 15:14:41 yeah; I wouldn't be surprised if it took you zero effort to accomplish that :) 15:16:59 -!- aquanaut [n=user@pool-71-191-49-201.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:18:30 wastrel [n=wastrel@nylug/member/wastrel] has joined #scheme 15:18:55 vasek [n=vasa@mm-143-90-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #scheme 15:18:59 -!- travis|away is now known as travisxbemann 15:20:37 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B0562B1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 15:22:33 -!- wingo-tp [n=wingo@22.Red-79-156-144.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has left #scheme 15:23:51 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-11-113.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:24:33 GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-235-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:24:36 -!- GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-235-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has left #scheme 15:27:46 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 15:28:31 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:30:15 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-99-186-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:30:46 foof` [n=user@163.221.157.46] has joined #scheme 15:31:14 greetings schemelings 15:31:26 -!- bascule [n=bascule@static-ip-62-75-255-124.inaddr.intergenia.de] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:31:26 -!- foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:31:26 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.89] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:31:26 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:31:26 -!- travisxbemann [n=f00bar@CPE-69-76-71-141.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:31:39 bascule [n=bascule@static-ip-62-75-255-124.inaddr.intergenia.de] has joined #scheme 15:31:58 jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.89] has joined #scheme 15:31:58 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 15:31:58 travisxbemann [n=f00bar@CPE-69-76-71-141.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 15:32:20 eek! an alien 15:32:28 *offby1* prepares to take foof` to his leader 15:34:38 And who might that be? 15:35:30 Nixon? 15:35:32 :D 15:37:36 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 15:42:12 -!- tripwyre [n=tripwyre@117.193.166.137] has quit [] 15:43:17 foof`: my wife, naturally 15:47:08 *gasp* 15:47:14 Mrs. offby1?! 15:47:29 ... which begs the question, are your children offby2 or offby0? 15:48:08 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [No route to host] 15:49:10 m00t! 15:49:24 Only got a cat, and he doesn't count 15:49:27 get it: "count" 15:49:27 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:49:29 *offby1* slaps thigh 15:51:10 pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has joined #scheme 15:52:41 haha 15:53:06 -!- nvteighen [n=nvteighe@25.Red-88-8-249.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has left #scheme 15:54:09 heh 15:54:25 -!- Nshag [i=user@99.a2c-250-158.astra2connect.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:56:32 Nshag [i=user@99.a2c-250-158.astra2connect.com] has joined #scheme 16:07:23 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 16:11:19 -!- fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-084-059-239-232.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:14:00 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Riastradh 16:15:33 -!- Riastradh has set mode -bbbb *!*@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com *!n=godzai@72.16.221.* *!*n=WP-Gast@*.dclient.hispeed.ch *!*n=strav@*.dsl.bell.ca 16:15:37 -!- Riastradh has set mode -bbbb *!*=spanish_@84.79.67.* *!*n=ur_wish@59.95.213.* *!*@*bas1-toronto35-1279627401.dsl.bell.ca *!*i=gavin@*.kwzs.be 16:15:40 -!- Riastradh has set mode -b *!*n=insobox@*.austin.res.rr.com 16:15:57 nicknull [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #scheme 16:15:58 -!- Riastradh has set mode -o Riastradh 16:16:39 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 16:18:32 http://www.cs.brown.edu/pipermail/plt-scheme/2005-February/007835.html 16:18:54 im trying to use hash-tables in scheme but i only fin stuff like the baove that doesnt work 16:19:14 -!- _p1dzkl is now known as p1dzkl 16:19:47 Are you using PLT Scheme? 16:21:51 yes 16:22:08 dr scheme /module 16:22:14 Then you should look at the documentation at . 16:22:33 (which is also, I believe, available from within DrScheme) 16:24:38 it says iu should do #hash in reference but i get bad syntax 16:25:08 I suspect that if I search for the string `you should do #hash', I sha'n't find it anywhere in that collection of documents. Please be more specific. 16:25:27 We should all do #hash. 16:25:35 *foof`* passes the pipe 16:26:24 Not for me, thanks. I'm busy baking some brownies and don't want to get too distracted! 16:28:24 -!- nicknull [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:28:37 nicknull [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #scheme 16:28:48 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-227-32.dsl.look.ca] has joined #scheme 16:38:57 hellues [n=hellues@88.235.237.85] has joined #scheme 16:38:59 hey 16:39:13 i have some question about polinomial 16:39:17 offby1, I'm curious -- do you have a favourite `introduction to git for impatient lazy bums who don't want to learn new tricks'? (Not that I mean to say anything about you or anything...!) 16:39:45 gigabytes [n=gigabyte@host252-239-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 16:40:52 i write polinomail multiplication 16:40:58 can i handle it with list 16:41:36 -!- nicknull [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has left #scheme 16:41:38 or must i hold coeff and high in something that is like 16:41:58 for example (define struct poly(coeff high)) 16:42:04 than multiplication 16:42:18 does anyone here use vim? do you know how to invert lispwords? 16:42:29 nvteighen [n=nvteighe@25.Red-88-8-249.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 16:42:31 -!- kuribas [i=kristof@d54C2AF95.access.telenet.be] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:42:43 an exaple (2,01,1,3,2) * (2,0,1.1) = blah blah 16:42:53 my list will be like a pair 16:43:24 (2,0 1,1 3,2) mean 3x(2) + x + 2 16:43:43 (2,0 3,1) mean 3x +2 16:44:27 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.89] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:44:27 -!- travisxbemann [n=f00bar@CPE-69-76-71-141.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:44:27 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:45:04 jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.89] has joined #scheme 16:45:04 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 16:45:04 travisxbemann [n=f00bar@CPE-69-76-71-141.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 16:45:18 Riastradh: alas, no. The best I can do it point you to the one article that helped me the most 16:45:37 http://eagain.net/articles/git-for-computer-scientists/ 16:45:56 -!- schmalbe [n=bernhard@p549A37C8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:46:11 I dunno; maybe that _is_ my `introduction to git for impatient lazy bums who don't want to learn new tricks'? 16:46:16 geev a read 16:46:18 hellues: How about ((2 0) (1 1) (3 2)) to represent 2 + x + 3x^2 ? 16:46:40 why not a vector? 16:46:45 xz: I don't use vim, so I can't help; but I'm curious: what do you mean by "invert lispwords"? 16:47:08 leppie: I think hellues is doing the SICP exercises, and I don't think they've talked about vectors 16:47:15 lol :) 16:47:27 schme_, yeah you write better than me 16:47:28 slow list it is then :) 16:47:48 i dont know 16:47:53 in multiplication 16:47:56 Hmm, so git is snapshot-oriented, not change-oriented? 16:48:01 yes. 16:48:08 well. 16:48:10 you have to sume something 16:48:25 Riastradh: I honestly don't know the difference. I've _heard_ that it's snapshot-oriented. 16:48:33 Riastradh: #git is a pretty decent place, if you care. 16:48:55 couple guys there who are more or less the #git equivalent of you: they know everything and are very generous with their time 16:49:23 galeon is silly browser 16:50:05 I hate to start anything bad, is there any learning scheme books\intro to programming? a friend of mind say it would be a better\easier language to learn then C++ 16:50:08 Yes, but if they are like me they will probably want their audience to thoroughly understand what git is about, while I'm currently in `lazy bum' mode. 16:50:15 BW^- [i=Miranda@94.191.155.171.bredband.tre.se] has joined #scheme 16:50:25 actually he said this to me Ask #scheme why they think scheme is a good first programming language (and not ASM or C or C++) the masters of it in there will probably be more convincing than me 16:50:43 I don't want to open a can of worms though, I was trying to learn C++ for game programming 16:51:11 I was\am still 16:51:19 Hentaixp: because Scheme will introduce you to programming much better than C++, where you *also* have to deal with some language-specific stuff. 16:51:21 Hentaixp: There's SICP for intro to programming/scheme. 16:51:48 note I run windows if it matters for the compiler\ide 16:51:52 Hentaixp: 'course I'm very partial to learning asm as first language ;) 16:51:55 Hentaixp, if your goal is to learn about computer science, and the structure and interpretation of computer programs, then you will have an easier time starting out with Scheme because there's much less language you must know and understand before you can write programs, by contrast with C++. 16:52:12 SICP? 16:52:24 Look at the room's topic... 16:52:27 ok 16:53:00 looking though them all 16:53:25 The issue with C++ (and C) is that they focus too much on the machine internals. That's not bad, but it's not what a beginner needs... 16:53:27 Hentaixp: And welcome to scheme! 16:53:39 this ? http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?ttype=2&tid=3305 16:53:56 http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/ 16:54:25 ok 16:54:40 schme_: thanks 16:55:07 anyone ever use scheme to make games, well 3d games? 16:55:29 I guess not... that's more C++'s job 16:55:56 Hentaixp: I haven't, but google gave me some hits for scheme +opengl, so atleast it is possible :) 16:56:07 ok gotcha schme_ 16:56:17 i have a Scheme guide here. any 16:56:24 Are there OpenGL bindings for Scheme? 16:56:30 ..learner who wants to check it out? want to pass it around for feedback. 16:56:48 BW^-: sure? 16:56:54 Hentaixp: Though I am quite convinced that the majority of game programming books and sites all deal with C/C++ 16:56:56 ok, email? 16:57:07 Hentaixp: And some of the stuff might not map so well over to scheme. 16:57:18 schme_: indeed or atleast depends on what type of gaming, cli,2d,3d,etc 16:58:31 Hentaixp: Oh ya, of course. And I'm convinced that you can indeed write 3d games using scheme.. Just that if you're new to programming in general you might have some hmmm.. problems getting what the game programming books tell you translated smoothly into scheme. 16:58:42 Hentaixp: 'cause it's a wee different than C++ :) 16:58:59 schme_: I figured such, it will take time despite me wantting to rush everything 16:59:47 nvteighen: It seems there are OpenGL bindings ya. for the chicken, and the PLT, and the gauche. 17:00:27 schme_: That's really nice... as Lisp/Scheme is usually "left behind" 17:00:29 I think its the logic of how to setup a computer program I'm grasping still 17:00:49 Hentaixp: But seriously.. if they can hack up a 3d shooter in haskell, one can sure do it in scheme :) 17:01:00 hahaha 17:01:02 hentaixp: email? 17:01:14 Riastradh: perhaps http://www-cs-students.stanford.edu/~blynn/gitmagic/index.html 17:01:16 pmed you 17:01:36 i ask 17:01:45 hmm 17:01:56 i wonder i do polinomial summation 17:01:59 for example 17:02:07 Hentaixp: SICP is a good read, atleast for scheme. Less of a good read if you want to do stuff in C/C++. I'm sure there are great books around for those too. 17:02:32 3x^2 + 2x + 1 and 2x +1 than it will be 3x^2 + 4x + 1 17:02:39 can i do with a list 17:02:47 hellues: of course... why not? 17:02:51 or must i do with define-stuct like 17:02:56 '(3 2 1) 17:03:05 (define struct poly (x y)) 17:03:05 Hentaixp: Personally I'd *not* go with the C/C++, but all game tutorials seem to be geared towards that so it might be a better choice for you. 17:03:09 just i wonder 17:03:16 which one is more suitable 17:03:17 Hentaixp: (just don't tell anyone in #scheme that I recommended not using scheme ;) ) 17:03:18 nvteighen, 17:03:34 hellues: yes? 17:03:35 schme_: time will tell, I do appericate your help here 17:03:42 everyone thanks 17:03:44 actually 17:03:55 i wondr about polinomial multiplication 17:03:58 Actually what I'd like is a document that introduces the reader to git by persuading him that it's not all that much stupider than Darcs. 17:04:06 because in polinamial multiplication 17:04:22 you have to sume number that is on unknown variable x 17:04:37 schme_: is there ide for scheme on windows or just compiler right now? 17:04:47 Riastradh: well, Linus in his famous Google talk makes that claim repeatedly, although I don't recall what evidence he gives (other than "all other SCMs are stupid") 17:04:51 ("and ugly") 17:05:15 Hentaixp: Last time I used windows (1991) I wasn't into scheme, and I haven't really looked after that.. so no idea :) 17:05:22 haha 17:05:24 ok 17:05:32 hellues: It doesn't matter. You should represent the polynomial into a conventional way that's easy to access 17:05:43 Riastradh: http://tinyurl.com/6dvqfz looks fruitful 17:05:45 offby1, I watched ten minutes of Linus's talk and found it to be both preaching to the choir and still nevertheless obnoxious evangelism. 17:05:56 I'm surprised you lasted that long :) 17:06:02 hmm 17:06:03 `Yes, he's right, but gosh, what a twit (or git!).' 17:06:09 Linus sure says the funniest things at time. :) 17:06:29 I mean, create a list and then some functions that access each part according to a "meaning" 17:06:30 (Ten minutes is an approximation.) 17:06:51 in his defense though, he wasn't really preaching to the choir; I get the feeling that his audience all used p4. (The Android stuff -- all 2GB of it -- apparently is in git now, so perhaps he made an impression (or perhaps Android was a separate company that used git from the git-do (har har))) 17:07:07 offby1, something got incorrectly URL-encoded in that tinyurl. 17:07:13 ugh 17:07:24 well, I just searched for "git for darcs users" in google. 17:07:27 Oh, yes: his original audience wasn't preaching to the choir. But I, his electronic audience, am among the choir of distributed VCSers. 17:07:46 s/preaching to//1 17:12:02 but darcs is supposedly fixed... 17:12:13 so's my cat 17:13:09 (Thanks for taking that one, offby1; I didn't really want to.) sladegen, it still has some serious performance problems, and whatever my opinions be on Darcs, there are nonetheless other projects that use git with which I may wish to interact. 17:13:13 tizoc [n=user@r190-135-31-42.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 17:13:38 someone had to do it 17:13:43 Indeed. 17:20:09 mike___ [n=mike@dslb-088-066-229-160.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 17:24:54 Nathan_ [n=nathan@195.168.209.2] has joined #scheme 17:25:28 -!- nvteighen [n=nvteighe@25.Red-88-8-249.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has left #scheme 17:25:51 ...gosh. I tried hard to kill any reflex to type `C-x C-c' by unbinding it and forcing myself to type `M-x save-buffers-kill-emacs RET' whenever I really actually do want to kill Emacs. 17:26:25 A moment ago to detach my screen session I typed `M-x save-buffers-kill-screen' into irssi. Clearly I kill Emacs too often. 17:29:24 Riastradh: :P 17:29:26 *Elly* uses vim 17:29:57 does anyone here use vim? 17:30:00 Elly! 17:30:06 ! 17:30:09 *Elly* hides 17:30:15 do you know anything about customizing indentexpr or equalprg? 17:30:23 I basically want vim to treat all words as lispwords 17:31:11 -!- tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-59-233.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:31:41 -!- kilimanjaro [n=foo@70.116.95.163] has quit [] 17:32:08 nope :( 17:34:14 xz: ask Paul Graham :) 17:34:19 (famous vi-using lisper) 17:34:41 he probably just uses the default 17:34:42 I keep meaning to switch to emacs 17:34:54 Elly why? 17:35:04 I don't know really 17:35:05 -!- gigabytes [n=gigabyte@host252-239-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [] 17:35:22 Elly there is vimscript out there to make vim awesome for scheme... it's just harder to find 17:35:48 -!- synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:36:20 Elly the only thing I've added to normal vim is the ability to walk from one parenthesized sexp to another, and to add or remove ()s around existing sexps quickly 17:36:32 walk from one S-expr to another? 17:36:45 Elly kind of like "w" for sexps instead of words 17:36:49 ahh 17:36:49 Elly: it's the peer pressure. Admit it. 17:37:17 offby1: most people where I live use vim :P 17:37:26 Elly ooh can I move there? =P 17:37:32 gigabytes [n=gigabyte@host252-239-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 17:37:37 -!- gigabytes [n=gigabyte@host252-239-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:37:43 Elly: then you're one of those troublemakers 17:37:43 it's a university campus 17:37:49 offby1: :) 17:37:52 Elly I'm on a campus too 17:38:09 SML is also the language of choice here, so I'm a troublemaker in more ways than one :P 17:39:12 so they waste their time on typing while I waste my time on vimscripting indenting... 17:39:35 SML is not particularly verbose 17:40:05 -!- travisxbemann is now known as travis|away 17:40:11 i meant thinking about types, not typing characters 17:40:19 oh 17:40:26 I don't know, I rather like static typing 17:40:29 (gasps from the crowd) 17:40:38 how come? 17:40:58 it gives me more assurance that I didn't make a stupid mistake 17:41:02 another result of peer pressure? 17:41:09 nah, that I actually do like 17:41:14 I knew some haskell before I ever heard of SML 17:41:32 I want BOTH static typing AND dynamic typing 17:41:33 at the same time 17:41:35 I want it ALL 17:41:53 I think you can have both in scheme with a bit of work 17:42:10 well, there's "Typed Scheme" but it's not quite scheme 17:42:11 probably a lot of work, actually 17:42:17 CL allows a kind of static typing, if I recall correctly. 17:42:25 I also really, really like pattern matching 17:42:33 Elly have you seen oleg's pmatch? 17:42:35 no? 17:42:37 erlang, rather to my surprise, has an analysis tool which catches some type errors. 17:42:39 where is it? 17:42:53 Elly: like pattern matching? You might like Erlang 17:42:58 Elly http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~jnear/res/pmatch.scm 17:43:06 offby1: I already know languages that have pattern matching :P 17:43:18 it is the thing I miss most when I am working in scheme 17:43:32 Elly actually that's a weirdish version... but you could probably write your own pmatch based on this 17:43:44 Elly: PLT scheme has a nice "match" form 17:43:57 offby1: oh? 17:44:07 is it in R5RS? 17:44:09 oh 17:44:11 heck no 17:44:14 it's PLT-specific 17:44:17 Elly there's no matching any any revised reports 17:44:21 well, is it documented somewhere? :P 17:44:30 sure, hold on 17:44:31 foof's MATCH macro is portable and considerably more flexible and general than pmatch.scm. 17:44:32 Elly but pmatch/match are both fairly standard and useful 17:45:15 Elly: http://docs.plt-scheme.org/reference/match.html#(form._((lib._scheme/match..ss)._match)) 17:45:16 Unfortunately, his web server, synthcode.com, appears to be down at the moment. 17:45:28 rudybot: uptime 17:45:28 offby1: I've been up for six days; this tcp/ip connection has been up for six days 17:45:31 npe [n=npe@66.112.249.148] has joined #scheme 17:45:36 so why didn't you tiny-ify that URL?! 17:45:42 http://tinyurl.com/68uvs6 17:45:48 Elly: those URLs are for you 17:46:01 thanks 17:46:12 -!- mike___ [n=mike@dslb-088-066-229-160.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:46:32 foof`, synthcode.com is being antisocial. 17:47:14 oh, why does scheme sometimes have [] instead of ()? 17:47:21 like in the examples on the match documentation page 17:47:26 -!- Nathan_ [n=nathan@195.168.209.2] has left #scheme 17:47:33 They are equivalent in PLT 17:47:42 Just to increase readability 17:47:44 why do people use [] then? 17:47:45 oh, okay 17:48:03 Elly: see line 218 of http://github.com/offby1/rudybot/tree/master/loop.ss for a simple example of "match" 17:48:04 [) is forbidden, so matching is easier 17:48:30 Elly: yeah, if I recall correctly [] is meant to indicate something that is neither a procedure call nor a list 17:48:34 offby1: argh, not actually a .ss file :P 17:48:48 but the system doesn't care if you use [] or () 17:49:15 Elly: are you saying you tried downloading that file, and got an ugly pile of HTML and javascript instead of Scheme ? 17:49:24 I wgot it and got that, yes 17:49:37 http://github.com/offby1/rudybot/tree/master%2Floop.ss?raw=true 17:49:39 ought to do it 17:49:42 ah, sneaky 17:50:08 oh, that's how you do that! 17:50:15 *offby1* blushes 17:50:53 oh, and I think the []-instead-of-() think is just a PLT-ism; I don't recall seeing any other schemes doing that 17:51:38 what's the equivalent using match of the ML pattern l :: lr? 17:54:33 hell if I know 17:54:35 dunno ML 17:54:44 it means "an element with a tail" 17:54:46 basically a list 17:54:47 `::' is pronounced `cons', offby1. 17:55:00 so in ML, map is written as: fun map f [] = [] | map f (l :: lr) = f l :: map f lr 17:55:01 Elly: then probably "cons". 17:55:25 oh, wow 17:55:32 (define (map f l) (match l ['() '()] [(cons l lr) (cons (f l) (map f lr))])) 17:55:39 that is much nicer than without pattern matching :) 17:55:40 something like that, yes 17:56:19 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:57:03 ooh, you can match on hash tables 17:57:20 and on regexes :O SML can't do that 17:57:38 SML also can't do the and/or/not thing 17:57:58 Most saliently, SML doesn't let you build your own patterns. 17:58:43 rudybot: eval (define MAP (match-lambda* [(list f '()) '()] [(list f (cons l lr)) (cons (f l) (MAP f lr))])) 17:58:52 rudybot: eval (MAP values '()) 17:58:52 offby1: ; Value: () 17:58:56 rudybot: eval (MAP values '(1 2 3)) 17:58:56 offby1: ; Value: (1 2 3) 17:58:57 match-lambda*? 17:59:02 rudybot: eval (MAP add1 '(1 2 3)) 17:59:02 offby1: ; Value: (2 3 4) 17:59:32 I shall call my new language "Verbose ML" 18:00:16 what is match-lambda*? 18:00:21 (and what does * mean after a function name?) 18:00:28 Elly: you can extend "match" by writing your own clauses, that take the place of e.g. "list" and "cons" in the above 18:00:29 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 18:00:53 match-lambda* is a way of defining a function -- like lambda -- that automatically dispatches on the "shape" of its arguments. 18:01:07 match-lambda (without the star) is similar, but takes only one argument. 18:01:14 the * suffix means different things :-| 18:01:33 the most I can say it means is: "I am like the version without the *, only a leeetle bit different" 18:02:40 I think SCSH often defines a procedure FOO and syntax FOO* (or maybe it's the other way around); they're similar in effect, but ... one's a procedure and one's syntax! The procedure is nice because it's first class, and hence can be passed as an argument to other procedures ... the syntax is nice because it typically is a little easier to invoke 18:12:51 -!- pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has quit ["leaving"] 18:22:37 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 18:23:54 has anyone elaborated on "The Scheme Way"? 18:25:09 grettke [n=grettke@CPE-65-31-132-59.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 18:25:37 error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 18:25:54 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:26:05 gigabytes [n=gigabyte@host252-239-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 18:26:22 -!- gigabytes [n=gigabyte@host252-239-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:26:33 gigabytes [n=gigabyte@host252-239-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 18:26:49 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:36:17 arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-14-208-195.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 18:36:40 (present-greeting (choose-from 'morning 'evening 'afternoon)) 18:37:14 arcfide: what you thought? 18:37:14 hey 18:38:01 What I Thought? 18:38:57 ? 18:39:03 arcfide: ah. doc. 18:39:08 about it. 18:44:07 -!- hellues [n=hellues@88.235.237.85] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:44:16 schme [n=marcus@c83-254-190-108.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 18:49:51 Tankado [n=baaa@bzq-79-178-232-22.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #scheme 18:50:03 -!- Tankado [n=baaa@bzq-79-178-232-22.red.bezeqint.net] has left #scheme 18:50:57 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-31-42.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:51:06 Ooh. 18:51:17 BW^-: I haven't had a chance to look yet. 18:52:29 k 18:52:41 Sorry, I became a little busy. 18:52:45 mm np. 18:52:51 btw, how would you describe "the scheme way"? 18:53:09 LOL 18:53:17 tizoc [n=user@r190-135-48-7.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 18:53:35 Um, if I were in the "mood": Don't be stupid. 18:53:42 BW^-, I would describe it as a red goose chasing a herring. 18:54:29 i've understood this term to be a kind of "moment of enlightenment", where one realizes how problems can be solved Unimaginably much more compact and concise in Scheme than in other languages 18:54:35 what do you think about that definition? 18:55:04 I think there is more merit in building interesting and useful programs than in metacompuphysics. 18:55:06 that is, you really grasp the capacity of macros, closures, first-class continuations, first-class procedures, everything evaluates, etc. 18:55:21 how do you mean? 18:55:29 -!- schme_ [n=marcus@c83-254-190-108.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:55:57 He means that talking about your programming and how you program too much detracts from real programming, which is the whole point. 18:56:05 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-227-32.dsl.look.ca] has quit ["Where is the glory in complying with demands?"] 18:56:22 If the way in which solutions to problems expressed in Scheme is unimaginably more concise than is possible in any other language, then how can you imagine the concept for which you seek a name? 18:56:37 ? 18:56:50 BW^-: Scheme isn't the most concise, the most clear, or whatever have you language around, and that definition assumes that people are coming from some kind of background. 18:56:51 you mean that you agree with the definition i proposed, because you consider it true? 18:57:20 arcfide: how do you mean it's not the most concise and clear around? 18:57:26 and, how define it? 18:57:30 Exactly. 18:57:32 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 18:57:33 APL is the most compact...doesn't make it good ;P 18:57:34 No, BW^-, I mean that you are chasing a wild goose, or wildly chasing a goose, and distracting yourself with a meal of red herring from solving real problems. What problem does finding a definition for the peculiar phrase `The Scheme Way' solve? 18:57:59 wy [n=wy@c-67-176-146-7.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:58:05 *mbishop* offers Riastradh a plate of fowl 18:58:14 you seem to have birds on the brain 18:58:20 hello! 18:58:23 heh. 18:58:27 riastradh: just interest. 18:58:30 fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-084-059-255-123.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 18:59:04 you are correct, i have no particular benefit of having a definition. 18:59:31 perhaps it would shed some light on how to build software. 18:59:48 Learning how to program is what sheds light on such things. 19:00:12 Learning how to program is largely language independent, IMO. 19:00:28 wy pasted "definition of or" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69193 19:02:02 I have some questions about syntax-case. I used the example definition of or (http://paste.lisp.org/display/69193), but it's weird that (or3 #f 1 t), where t is unbound, is evaluated to 1 instead of giving an unbound variable error. 19:02:43 hellues [n=hellues@85.96.156.73] has joined #scheme 19:02:57 rudybot: eval (or #t whaaaaaa) 19:02:58 offby1: ; Value: #t 19:03:00 hey 19:03:08 what is whaaaaa 19:03:08 wy: that seems to be what PLT scheme does. 19:03:16 hellues: it's an unbound identifier. 19:03:25 rudybot: eval (or #t anything-at-all) 19:03:25 offby1: ; Value: #t 19:03:28 offby1: I'm using Petite 19:03:30 wy: OR works a little like IF in that it does not evaluate all of its arguments. 19:03:30 rudybot: eval (and #f anything-at-all) 19:03:30 offby1: ; Value: #f 19:03:33 rudybot: eval (and #t anything-at-all) 19:03:33 offby1: error: reference to undefined identifier: anything-at-all 19:03:36 see? 19:03:38 Does not necessarily evaluate, I mean. 19:03:40 hmm 19:03:48 that being its whole purpose in life. 19:04:45 -!- mopped [i=3lliott@user.custhost.se] has left #scheme 19:04:47 i see 19:04:56 arcfide: OMG. I just noticed that this is the default behavior of or 19:04:57 (or #t wha) 19:04:59 work 19:05:06 how does it work for and 19:05:09 :p 19:05:25 anyway 19:05:39 i ask a question 19:05:45 let say we have two list 19:06:04 (define l1 '(1 2 3 4 5)) 19:06:19 (define l2 '(2 4 5 6 7)) 19:06:29 arcfide: So the definition is correct in this sense 19:06:39 -!- vasek [n=vasa@mm-143-90-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:06:43 vasek [n=vasa@mm-37-88-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #scheme 19:06:45 i have to sume of this (1 +2 ) (2 + 4)... 19:07:02 can i do that for poliynomial 19:07:10 polynomial summation sorry 19:09:18 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 19:10:06 wy: If by this sense, you mean that not all of the expressions in an OR form are evaluated unless necessary for the result, then yes. 19:10:44 -!- grettke [n=grettke@CPE-65-31-132-59.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:12:18 arcfide: But I think unbound variables should be detected whether they are evaluated or not 19:13:31 arcfide: Is there a way to change the definition of or to do that? 19:14:06 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [] 19:14:52 wy: If you want to do this, then, yes, you can do this, but you should also make sure that you really want to do this. 19:15:42 lisppaste, url 19:15:42 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste. 19:15:49 wy: (OR (CHILDREN? building) (BOMB-SUCCESS!? building)). 19:16:46 wy: What happens when references appear way way down the line inside of nested subexpressions? 19:17:01 Are you going to somehow evaluate those expressions to see if they are bound? 19:17:06 What about Macros? 19:18:10 hellues pasted "sum" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69197 19:18:20 can you look my address 19:18:34 arcfide: You just need to verify that BOMB-SUCCESS!? and building are bound. You don't need to evaluated (BOMB-SUCCESS!? building) 19:20:03 any recommendations on scheme editors for windows? 19:20:23 drscheme :D 19:20:24 wy: What if BOMB-SUCCESS!? is a macro? 19:20:28 arcfide: Because once (CHILDREN? building) evaluates to #f, your aircraft will crash :P 19:21:08 anyone here ? 19:21:16 arcfide: aren't macros always expanded? 19:21:24 wy: What if BOMB-SUCCESS!? does something with its input BUILDING that results in the referencing of a potentially unbound varia[ble BULDING-SOMEWHERE-ELSE? 19:21:29 wy: Isn't OR a macro? 19:21:56 wy: The OR transformer receives its input exactly as it is entered. 19:23:17 wy: Expecting the macro expander to expand things inside another macro form would break the way Macros work. 19:23:20 (BOMB-SUCCESS!? building) will be expanded first 19:23:55 wy: So, what if I have a macro (DEFINE (BOMB-SUCCESS!? building) ...)? 19:24:04 Let's say that BOMB-SUCCESS!? is already a macro. 19:24:15 Should DEFINE then receive the expanded form of BOMB-SUCCESS!? 19:25:14 I never use (define (f x) ...) :P 19:25:25 wy: Take another form of similar nature. 19:25:34 DO, for example. 19:25:36 nobody helps me :D ? 19:26:07 hellues: I do not understand the question. 19:26:26 wy: Do you see? 19:26:34 arcfide: not yet... 19:27:03 i wrote a code that is in ttp://paste.lisp.org/display/69197 19:27:08 wy: (DO ((BOMB-SUCCESS!? '() (CONS BLAH ....)) (BLAH ...)) ...). 19:27:09 i am newbie on drscheme 19:27:21 what is my mistake on this code can you say this :D 19:27:27 wy: What is going to happen here if BOMB-SUCCESS!? is already bound to some macro? 19:27:32 you left out the "h" in "http" 19:28:32 hellues: what you're trying to do is so twisted, so contrary to the spirit of scheme, that I hesitate to help you. 19:28:34 arcfide: I see... but the definition of or will expand all alternatives 19:28:39 *offby1* looks around for the Mutation Police 19:28:47 wy: What? 19:28:53 i try to do 19:29:01 sum two list 19:29:05 rudybot: eval (define l1 '(1 2 3 4 5)) 19:29:06 arcfide: ((_ e) (syntax e)) 19:29:13 and return in different list 19:29:20 rudybot: eval (define l2 '(2 4 5 6 7)) 19:29:25 wy: What do you want to do with that? 19:29:25 rudybot: eval (map + l1 l2) 19:29:25 offby1: ; Value: (3 6 8 10 12) 19:29:31 ((_ e1 e2 e3 ...) (syntax (let ((t e1)) (if t t (or3 e2 e3 ...))))) 19:30:01 Right, but it won't expand ones that it doesn't need to expand. 19:30:03 arcfide: or will be put into the operator position after the expansion, and it will be expanded again 19:30:28 offby1, 19:30:33 my code is so wrond 19:30:34 Sorry, what I mean is, it won't evaluate them. 19:30:37 wrong* 19:30:50 arcfide: It will be expanded until no macros exist in the expansion 19:30:52 yes. Yes, it is. 19:30:57 hmm 19:31:21 arcfide: Where are we :~P 19:31:35 wy: So you're suggesting walking through the entire process and expanding everything down, checking the expansions, and then putting them wher eyou want? 19:31:58 arcfide: ... ok. so you will always be able to verify the variables are all bound 19:32:15 wy: What do you gain with this? 19:32:39 arcfide: so that my bomber won't crash on the ground 19:33:04 wy: If you write your code this way, your bommber is going to crash one way or the other. 19:33:22 In both cases you're going to error out because something is unbound. 19:33:46 arcfide: But I can know that before taking off 19:33:53 wy: You will? 19:34:20 synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has joined #scheme 19:34:39 I guess there is a way to check whether an identifier is bound 19:35:38 wy: 19:36:06 In my Scheme implementation, I can compile all sorts of things together, and I won't always know my unbound identifiers at compile time. 19:36:48 wy: (LET () (DEFINE SOME (LAMBDA () NOTHING)) "SOME"). 19:36:51 -!- gigabytes [n=gigabyte@host252-239-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [] 19:37:07 hellues pasted "sum" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69199 19:37:09 rudybot: eval (LET () (DEFINE SOME (LAMBDA () NOTHING)) "SOME") 19:37:10 arcfide: error: eval:1:5: #%app: missing procedure expression; probably originally (), which is an illegal empty application in: (#%app) 19:37:23 Bah. 19:37:23 LOL 19:37:28 can you look my address 19:38:19 rudybot: eval (let () "arcfide") 19:38:19 arcfide: ; Value: "arcfide" 19:38:35 rudybot: eval (let () (define some (lambda () not-bound)) "arcfide") 19:38:35 arcfide: ; Value: "arcfide" 19:39:37 i try to sume of two list 19:39:44 why it returns nothing 19:39:49 wy: OR can contain any amount of arbitrary code in it, and you're going to have to walk through that entire set of procedures and everything just to check for boundness. However, even then, you can't be sure. 19:40:23 rudybot, eval (define l1 '(2 3 4)) 19:40:26 wy: If the first OR mutates some value that is then going to be made available to another part of the OR, what then? You'll have to interleave your execution with your expansion to find out whether they are bound. 19:40:40 rudybot, eval (define l2 '(1 3 5 6)) 19:40:53 rudybot, (map + l1 l2) 19:41:13 :D 19:41:35 hellues: What is NULL in your code? 19:42:01 null doesnt mean anythin i realized 19:42:13 but i dont know what i put instead of null 19:42:26 hellues: Have you expanded your code? 19:42:34 hellues: Trace its execution. 19:42:39 *arcfide* eats Lunch. 19:43:22 hellues pasted "sum" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69200 19:43:38 i think i return something instead of null 19:43:54 but i put summation that is like number 19:44:00 but that must be a list 19:44:23 sume the list l1 l2 and return l3 result of (+ l1 l2) 19:44:41 but i dont know how i can do 19:45:51 hellues pasted "sum" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69201 19:46:14 actually it was last thing that i did 19:46:17 but i doesnt work 19:46:27 i doesnt give mistake or result arcfide 19:48:59 does it mean nothing araujo 19:49:03 sorry arcfide 19:50:24 i am so silly i am not able to write program in drscheme :/ 19:59:58 (+ 1 1) 20:00:07 what's a simple example to show anyone the use of define-macro? 20:01:42 Why would you want to do that, BW^-? 20:02:26 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-49-5.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 20:03:24 to give an impression of how being able to do search-replace on the parse tree light that may help you in solving problems 20:06:43 java is very easy language relatively than drscheme 20:07:04 you can do it in 2 minutes poly * constant 20:07:16 '(1 2 3) *2 = 2 4 6 20:07:24 you can do very easy in java 20:10:18 -!- CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-61-150-59.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:10:28 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-61-150-59.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:12:00 hellues: What are you trying to do? 20:12:23 hellues: (map * '(1 2 3)) 20:12:33 no BW^- 20:12:36 lol 20:12:39 apply 20:12:41 i try to write polynomial 20:12:51 polynomial * constant 20:12:55 hellues: You should also annotate pastes, rather than using another one. 20:13:04 -!- Jarvellis is now known as SarcasmJarv 20:13:06 '( 1 2 3) * 2 = 2 4 6 20:13:08 hellues: You mean, multiply every value in a list by a constant value? 20:13:13 '( 1 2 3) * 2 = (2 4 6) 20:13:22 umm.. (apply values (map * '(1 2 3))) ? 20:13:29 oh map would do :) 20:13:33 hellues: (MAP (LAMBDA (E) (* 2 E)) '(1 2 3)) 20:13:42 oh yes rightr. 20:13:46 E is a list ? 20:13:54 hellues: Do you know how MAP works? 20:13:54 (apply values (map (lambda (e) (* 2 e) '(1 2 3)))) 20:14:05 actually i know 20:14:32 -!- SarcasmJarv is now known as Jarvellis 20:14:56 arcfide annotated #69201 with "Trace of above." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69201#1 20:15:21 Well, ADDER is a bad name. 20:15:26 MULTER might be better. 20:15:49 if java is "so easier", why not use java? :) 20:15:54 but i didnt get used how i can use higer order function 20:16:25 what is trace-lambda 20:16:40 i dont know 20:16:43 hellues: It is a convenience form that my Scheme has to allow you to trace "anonymous" procedures. 20:16:47 can i require a package 20:17:22 undefined undentifier trace-lambda 20:17:31 which version do you use 20:17:44 I bet it's in his fancy smancy chez! 20:18:00 mbishop: As a matter of fact, it is. :-P 20:18:08 hellues: I use Chez Scheme. 20:18:18 muhahahhaa 20:18:23 how many scheme exists 20:18:24 :D 20:18:29 Of course, PLT Scheme may have something like this. 20:18:36 hellues: I gave up counting. 20:18:49 puhahhahaha 20:19:19 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-48-7.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:22:18 any example on define-macro? 20:22:30 how can i use trace-lambda on drscheme 20:22:33 do ++ 20:22:59 that works like C 20:23:18 http://www.koders.com/scheme/fid93A701B477574ACB2B80D637FFEAEF6E8461FE52.aspx?s=sort 20:23:19 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/6a9tnw 20:23:24 it helps BW^- 20:24:28 i meant something that's 6-7 lines long 20:24:52 hmm 20:25:08 how can i use trace-lambda in drscheme 20:25:09 i had some stuff, let me look if its not deleted :) 20:25:31 arcfide, 20:25:41 what is the benefit of trace-lambda 20:25:42 hellues: Hrm? 20:25:54 why did you use trace-lambda. i just wonder 20:26:46 hellues: It is an expository tool. 20:28:07 i dont know expository mean 20:28:09 let me check 20:28:32 hellues: It is a tool which serves to help explain and clarify something. 20:29:00 Specifically, the points at which the flow of the program enters and leaves a given anonymous procedure. 20:29:16 I guess not strictly anonymous here. 20:29:22 BW^-: http://paste.lisp.org/display/69203 ? 20:29:49 BW^-: What was the point of DEFINE-MACRO again? 20:30:03 but.. 20:30:12 just to show average-joe how useful it is 20:30:16 in very introductory purposes. 20:30:17 rudybot, eval : (map (trace-lambda (E) (* 2 E)) '(1 2 3)) 20:30:17 hellues: error: reference to undefined identifier: : 20:30:24 haha 20:31:00 BW^-: I don't consider DEFINE-MACRO to be useful for introductory purposes. 20:31:29 In fact, I would recommend staying away from Macros unless they are at a point to appreciate them. 20:31:38 If they are, what is wrong with SYNTAX-RULES? 20:31:43 i agree with arcfide 20:31:56 Otherwise, the benefits of tree-walking and the like can be illustrated without Macros. 20:32:09 m 20:32:29 The reason I say this is from my own experience teaching beginning programmers. 20:32:57 The idea of changing syntaxes is bad enough, but then, when you do so in a non-hygienic manner, you are asking for trouble. 20:33:24 Many beginning programmers I encounter do not understand the difference between applicative and normal order evaluation. 20:33:36 [I think I have the right terms here.] 20:33:47 Adding in macros further confuses them. 20:34:23 i must us trace-lambda in drscheme :// 20:35:09 hellues: You're using DrScheme, you must assimilate or be destroyed, resistance is futile. 20:35:15 arcfide: applicative? you mean difference between what's done compile-time and runtime? 20:35:41 BW^-: I mean the difference between two different forms of evaluation. 20:35:41 arcfide, 20:35:44 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 20:35:46 i dont do anything 20:35:47 :D 20:36:04 just i install drscheme to my debian 20:36:05 :X 20:36:55 there is an infinite loop eitjer normal order or applicitive order 20:37:05 is it bad thing 20:37:11 Huh? 20:37:47 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 20:37:48 BW^-: you can use the same piece of code to show how dangerous it can be 20:38:04 arcfide, 20:38:11 i mean it 20:38:41 hellues: You mean what? 20:40:18 hellues pasted "sum" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69208 20:40:32 look at this address 20:40:37 this code is from sicp 20:41:10 you can join infinite loop both applicitive and normal order evaluation 20:42:27 hellues: Are you saying that one can create infinite loops in both normal and applicative evaaluation orders? 20:42:46 yeah 20:42:54 hellues: I would think this is rather obvious. 20:43:25 yeah 20:43:33 i learn it before three week :D 20:43:39 i ask this is bad ? 20:43:59 My point to BW^- was that since beginning computer science students rarely have a full grasp of evaluation order, it behooves a teacher to avoid introducing ideas which will encourage a possible confounding of the semantics of evaluation before the students have a firm enough grasp on the rules of evaluation and how they affect one's programs. 20:44:49 arcfide: can you give a concrete example? 20:44:56 DEFINE-MACRO 20:45:00 Macros in general. 20:45:07 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:45:45 BW^-: I have students that want to perform normal order evaluations or do things like DEFINE-MACRO in their normal code, intuitively, because they do not understand how Scheme evaluates expressions. 20:46:41 kniu [n=kniu@CMU-301252.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 20:46:45 hahhhah 20:46:50 Since Macros have a separate semantics for evaluation than normal expressions, it would confuse most students to have to try to clarify which one is which before they have a grasp of normal procedure application. 20:47:02 actually i understand i am genius 20:47:02 :D 20:47:47 oh ok 20:48:23 BW^-: Once they understand these concepts, then macros can be introduced and the special forms that they have been using wil make more sense, but before that, they'll just confuse themselves with trying to figure out why they can't deconstruct the input given to them as lists or do pattern matching in the lambda FORMALS. 20:50:44 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:55:45 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:56:08 arcfide, are you teaching a course using Scheme? 20:56:50 kilimanjaro: I am an Assistant Instructor (TA) for one of the Intro CS courses at my University. 20:56:54 We use Scheme. 20:57:10 do you teach? 20:57:19 like have TA sessions 20:57:23 kilimanjaro: I run a Lab which is kind of like teaching. 20:57:49 kilimanjaro: We expect most of the teaching to be done in lecture, but the Labs have a good deal of teaching in them. 20:58:03 Last lab was a doosey as we went over FOLD-RIGHT. 20:58:19 ahh 20:58:22 did you buy a whole bunch of Chez licenses? :P 20:58:34 mbishop: I'm at Indiana. 20:58:56 You don't have to buy licenses when you're in the same University as the author of Chez. 20:59:03 heh 20:59:14 Nonetheless, most of the time we just use SWiL and Petite. 20:59:23 The servers all have Chez on them if you need some speed. 20:59:36 And I have my own personal license so I can do commercial work. 20:59:56 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S0106001310475d12.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 21:03:14 how can i use trace-lambda in drscheme are there a way 21:03:30 hellues: Have you made an attempt to search the documentation? 21:04:57 arcfide, have you been able to use scheme commercially? 21:05:09 i did a bit of contract work using scheme, but of course I never told anyone I was actually using scheme 21:05:39 kilimanjaro: Yes, I have. 21:07:30 have you used scheme for end-user software? i was only able to use it for a personal toolset sort of thing, anything I actually sold to someone was written in C# because it seemed like a tough sell to convince them that it's ok to pay money for something written in an obscure language 21:08:14 -!- hellues [n=hellues@85.96.156.73] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:08:36 kilimanjaro: there is a number of instances of professional scheme use. 21:09:32 Yes, I have done end-user software in Scheme. 21:10:12 kilimanjaro: or, i should say, commercial 21:10:16 hellues pasted "sum" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69209 21:10:36 i should add that the stuff I worked on, they were buying full rights to it, source code and all, so that's why Scheme was an issue. if I was just writing something for them to license for use then it wouldn't matter as much, but basically the guy I was working for wanted flexibility in case he needed someone to work on it in the future and couldn't get me to do it 21:11:54 kilimanjaro: even while i get your point, there is scheme consultancy available right off, and there's also outsourced functional programming consultancy available. 21:12:03 hellues [n=hellues@78.183.203.155] has joined #scheme 21:12:14 can you say my mistake pls http://paste.lisp.org/display/69209 21:12:50 sounds like you want (apply * l1) 21:13:23 l2 '(1 2 3 4)) = (2 3 6 8) 21:13:35 not using higer order function 21:13:36 -!- mhoran [n=mhoran@65.202.36.143] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:13:47 BW^-, well, I don't doubt that it has been used, I don't doubt that it could be effectively used, I just mean there's a stigma behind choosing "weird" technologies 21:14:26 or, rather: (apply * (cons n l1)) 21:14:27 kilimanjaro: or non-mainstream, in the java-php sense, perhaps one should say. :) 21:14:27 apply and map same thing ? 21:14:33 no. 21:14:34 get your point. 21:14:39 hmm 21:14:39 and the only commercial product written in Scheme that I am familiar with is Chez 21:14:46 what is the difference 21:15:00 offby1, i cannot use higher order function 21:15:16 i also recall reading an article about Scheme being used by a digital animation company to develop an internal production pipeline toolset 21:15:17 i try to write with car cdr recursive 21:15:25 offby1 annotated #69209 with "maybe this?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69209#1 21:15:29 i try to learn how to write code 21:15:33 because i dont know 21:15:41 kilimanjaro: I've written in house server monitoring pieces for people, calculators and GUI apps, GUI based script and document processors, among others. 21:16:09 kilimanjaro: I know that there have been many other instances of commercial uses of Lisp/Scheme as well. 21:17:53 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:18:08 rudybot, eval : (map (lambda (E) (* 2 E)) '(1 2 3)) 21:18:09 hellues: error: reference to undefined identifier: : 21:18:22 rudybot, eval (map (lambda (E) (* 2 E)) '(1 2 3)) 21:18:22 hellues: ; Value: (2 4 6) 21:18:30 -!- kniu [n=kniu@CMU-301252.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:18:37 offby1, actually my function give result like that 21:18:45 constant * list = new list 21:19:05 kniu [n=kniu@LEMON.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 21:19:13 sure 21:19:29 arcfide, do you have to do much persuading to use Scheme? 21:19:35 what is the problem on my code 21:20:02 http://paste.lisp.org/display/69209 21:20:09 i cannot do very simple thing :/ 21:20:15 hellues: your problem is that your code differs from my code :) 21:21:08 but you code works different 21:22:24 i dont know why i am not able to write program in drscheme :( 21:22:38 in java 21:22:40 in c 21:22:43 in python 21:23:05 i do all of language but i am not able to do drscheme 21:23:29 anyway i am sorry 21:23:36 hellues: what are you trying to do? 21:24:05 i try to 21:24:10 list * constant 21:24:26 i mean 2 0 '(1 2 3) = (2 4 6) 21:24:26 lelf [n=lelf@217.118.90.100] has joined #scheme 21:24:43 la la la 21:24:52 http://paste.lisp.org/display/69209 my code is here 21:25:11 yodely hodely! 21:25:51 duncanm: so like when was the last time you actually connected your IRC client to freenode? _Months ago I added a feature to rudybot to say something like "dum dum dum" when you join ... and I don't think it's ever triggered. 21:26:09 rudybot: eval (map (lambda (x) (* x 2)) (list 1 2 3)) 21:26:11 xz: ; Value: (2 4 6) 21:26:16 hellues: like that? ^ 21:26:25 yeah, 21:26:32 rudybot: eval (begin (require srfi/26) (map (cut * 2 <>) (list 1 2 3))) 21:26:33 offby1: ; Value: (2 4 6) 21:26:37 but 21:26:47 i cant use higher order function 21:26:56 just i try to write a code 21:27:05 with car cdr using recursion 21:27:09 if so on 21:27:09 okay 21:27:19 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:27:32 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 21:27:59 hellues: Look at how map is defined, this allows you to se ehow to do this without higher order functions. 21:28:02 rudybot: eval (let fun ((ls '(1 2 3))) (if (null? ls) ls (cons (* 2 (car ls)) (fun (cdr ls))))) 21:28:02 xz: ; Value: (2 4 6) 21:28:10 hellues: ^ 21:28:20 i know 21:28:22 map 21:28:30 i can write map 21:28:44 hellues: Have you looked at the definition of MAP? 21:28:47 Look above. 21:31:50 anyway i almost write a code i am near to write code 21:31:54 i must study more 21:31:58 xz, 21:32:05 thi is tail recursive ? 21:32:19 hellues nope. look at the call to fun. it's not in tail position. 21:32:33 hmm 21:32:49 but you put value to ls right ? 21:33:18 hellues do you know what "tail recursive" means? 21:34:16 actually i know 21:34:33 (if null? l1) null 21:34:56 i(if (null? l) something tail recursive 21:35:06 use smt instead of null 21:35:09 i know that 21:35:12 ?? 21:35:24 nevermind 21:35:43 (cons (* 2 (car ls)) (fun (cdr ls))) --- the call to fun is not in tail position 21:35:54 hmm 21:36:18 it is a recursive call in non-tail position 21:38:49 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S0106001310475d12.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:43:22 offby1: that's because i connect via my hosted server 21:43:32 offby1: so i'm always connected as long as my server is up 21:43:52 bah 21:44:25 is that analogous to: you run your IRC client on (say) a linode, and connect to it via (say) screen? 21:44:48 offby1: exactly, my server is a linode 21:45:33 oho 21:45:40 well, so is rudybot! You two should have lots in common. 21:49:00 -!- lelf [n=lelf@217.118.90.100] has quit ["used jmIrc"] 21:50:29 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S0106001310475d12.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 21:51:33 -!- tizoc_ is now known as tizoc 21:53:24 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S0106001310475d12.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:56:36 -!- hellues [n=hellues@78.183.203.155] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:58:26 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-95-99.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:58:59 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["lou"] 21:59:13 hellues [n=hellues@85.102.164.37] has joined #scheme 21:59:21 i am such an idiot 22:00:17 lisppaste, url 22:00:17 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste. 22:00:42 hellues no kidding... 22:00:56 nicholasw_ [n=nw@ckc-109-118.ResHall.Berkeley.EDU] has joined #scheme 22:01:05 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-166-102.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:04:46 hellues pasted "sum" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69212 22:05:16 xz, what is wrong in that code i just try to write a code try to learn :/ 22:05:27 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-9-221.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 22:05:41 -!- nicholasw [n=nw@ckc-109-118.ResHall.Berkeley.EDU] has quit [Operation timed out] 22:05:49 (map + '(2 3 4) '(1 2 4)) this works like that 22:06:26 nut it doesnt wor :/ 22:06:31 work* 22:09:30 what's wrong with your sum? 22:09:40 GrayShade [i=GrayShad@79.117.183.226] has joined #scheme 22:09:51 i dont know 22:09:54 it doesnt work 22:10:13 hellues what is it meant to do? 22:10:27 rudybot: eval (map + '(2 3 4) '(1 2 4)) 22:10:27 xz: ; Value: (3 5 8) 22:10:51 +: expects type as 3rd argument, given: (); other arguments were: 3 5 22:11:00 mistake is that 22:11:34 rudybot: eval (+ 2 1 '(2 4)) 22:11:34 xz: error: +: expects type as 3rd argument, given: (2 4); other arguments were: 2 1 22:11:58 hellues: look at your 3rd line - you're giving + a list as the third argument 22:12:15 + list list 22:12:17 is it all right to call "name' like I do in the second pattern? http://paste.lisp.org/display/69213 22:12:35 hellues + works on numbers, not lists 22:12:43 ( + ((car a) (car b)) 22:12:46 hmm 22:12:59 does car a gives number ? 22:13:06 sorry 22:13:11 what can i do for that 22:13:31 hellues car will return a number if its argument is a pair whose first element is a number 22:13:44 hellues but your definition of sum won't return a number, it will return a list 22:13:52 hmm 22:13:58 i understand now 22:14:08 GrayShade: I think so 22:14:16 what must i do for that 22:14:20 pls help me :D 22:14:39 xz: then I must be doing something wrong in the first pattern :) 22:14:56 GrayShade: try using _ for the template identifiers too, to see if that changes anything 22:15:06 oooooo 22:15:08 i did it 22:15:22 GrayShade: because you might be catching the name in the template when you really want the name defined by the define-syntax 22:15:32 i put cons :D 22:15:35 GrayShade: I mean pattern, sorry 22:15:42 but cons takes null value 22:15:45 and a list 22:16:19 GrayShade I think they should be the same though... 22:16:19 (cons (+ (car l1) (car l2)) (sum (cdr l1) (cdr l2))))) 22:16:27 first one ,is null value 22:16:33 + car l1 car l2 22:16:34 xz: I get an "unbound identifier" for the value of in, but the expansion looks fine. 22:16:44 sum cdr l1 cdr l2 is a list 22:16:47 tizoc__ [n=user@r190-135-46-5.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 22:17:01 cons takes an initial value and list returns a list 22:17:03 ? 22:17:38 GrayShade: yeah... you can't always trust the expansion because it doesn't display complete information about the identifiers - it just prints the name of the identifier when in fact there is extra information about how many levels of macro expansion have been done to produce this identifier 22:18:01 xz: so I guess I have some syntax / unsyntax mismatch 22:18:16 GrayShade: no, I think you should try this 22:18:34 GrayShade: use some other identifier (like `_') for the template identifiers 22:18:39 GrayShade and see if that works better 22:18:53 GrayShade do you know what I mean? 22:19:02 xz: I tried that, I think 22:20:10 GrayShade your paste has a missing ) I think, too... 22:20:33 GrayShade near the word `something' 22:21:12 yes, it does 22:21:32 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B0562B1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:21:37 the problem is that instead of 'something I have some horrible code 22:21:48 hellues cons take two values and creates a pair of those values 22:22:06 it might make invalid assumptions about the input / inputs arguments 22:22:36 GrayShade right but you should be able to get the version with #'something there to work 22:23:05 GrayShade try #''something instead of just 'something 22:23:59 xz: it seems to be expanding to what I would expect 22:24:15 GrayShade so what's the problem? 22:24:27 that error :) 22:24:37 lol :) 22:24:43 GrayShade what error? 22:24:56 would showing you the code help? 22:24:57 i had a brace error too the other day :) 22:25:20 GrayShade yep. you can pm me if you want 22:25:30 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-49-5.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:25:47 xz: http://paste.lisp.org/display/69213#1 22:26:45 I'm not really used to macros, so it's pretty ugly 22:26:46 GrayShade maybe you want to use with-syntax instead of let 22:27:22 GrayShade when you bind x 22:27:27 GrayShade (or just inline the whole thing into the unsyntax) 22:27:34 would that help? 22:28:11 actually 22:28:16 it probably wouldn't make a difference 22:28:19 h 22:28:21 let me look again... 22:28:22 oh* 22:29:06 map works for list that has same length what about different length ? 22:29:09 doens't datum->syntax need an identifier? 22:29:19 map doesnt work if list length is not same 22:29:41 GrayShade that's where the template identifier might actually be helpful. replace the first _ with something like id and use that as the first argument to datum->syntax 22:29:50 what is the higher order function that works for different length list 22:30:08 hellues I think you would have to write your own... 22:31:01 xz: same 22:31:16 hmm 22:32:41 GrayShade can you send me the code and the thing you use to test it so I can play? it doesn't have to be the full thing, but something that doesn't work 22:33:00 xz: I guess I'll send you the full thing, if that's okay 22:33:02 GrayShade, why do you need that conversion? 22:33:10 -!- tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-9-221.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:33:18 GrayShade yep go for it. 22:33:49 leppie: shotgun-ing until it worked :) 22:34:13 you can use with-syntax 22:34:14 (with-syntax (((i ...) (map (lambda (x) #`(get-signal #,x)) #'(input . inputs)))) 22:35:27 xz: can I send you an archive? 22:36:29 GrayShade ahh that's so much stuff =P 22:36:39 :) 22:36:48 way too much for me 22:37:13 how do you test it? 22:37:25 hellues: map from srfi 1 might be what you're looking for 22:37:37 xz: open main.ss and try to run it 22:37:46 hmm but I don't have plt 22:37:50 I'll just have to read 22:38:06 the macros are in syntax.scm 22:38:25 hm.. so it isn't really portable? 22:38:40 am I using something specific to plt? 22:38:51 yeah the whole module provide require thing 22:38:57 oh 22:39:16 ...that was the point of R6RS libraries ... and they didn't make it any easier =P 22:39:18 what is srfi 22:39:26 units? 22:39:49 GrayShade did you try leppie's with-syntax suggestion? 22:40:01 xz: I tried replacing x in unsyntax with its definition 22:40:13 p1dzkl, 22:40:21 GrayShade leppie had a better plan ^ 22:40:31 it felt easier :) 22:40:32 let say we have two lists (1 2 3 4 5) 22:40:41 and (1 2 3) 22:40:55 how can i calculate value with map or something else 22:41:20 hellues http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-1/srfi-1.html 22:42:24 Riastradh: The server seems to be down... wanna take a road trip to Maryland and reboot it for me? :) 22:42:28 what value hellues? 22:43:26 mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 22:44:09 like (map (lambda (l) (apply + l)) '((1 2 3 4 5)(1 2 3))) 22:44:18 rudybot, eval: (for-each + '(1 2 3 4) '(2 3 4 8)) 22:44:41 no 22:44:49 actually it is lie 22:45:10 '(1 3 4 5) (2 6 7) = 3 9 11 4 5 22:46:14 that looks a lot more complicated 22:46:22 yeah 22:46:39 (for-each + '(1 2 3 4) '(2 3 4 8)) 22:46:47 why doesnt work 22:47:06 because foreach does not return anything 22:47:13 ha 22:47:20 hm 22:47:36 map will 22:47:41 rudybot: eval (map + '(1 2 3) '(2 3 4)) 22:47:42 xz: ; Value: (3 5 7) 22:47:46 rudybot: eval (map + '(1 2 3) '(2 3 4 5)) 22:47:46 xz: error: map: all lists must have same size; arguments were: # (1 2 3) (2 3 4 5) 22:47:57 leppie, what cna i do for (1 3 4 5) (2 6 7) = 3 9 11 4 5 22:48:06 map doesnt work 22:48:11 hellues how did you get that answer?? 22:48:21 i wrote my own 22:48:26 i dont get it this 22:48:29 looks like some projects or something weird 22:48:33 wait a second 22:49:06 xz: I pasted all the code in one file, rearranged a few things to make it compile and now it works :/ 22:49:36 rudybot: eval (let fun ((l1 '(1 3 4 5)) (l2 '(2 6 7))) (cond ((null? l1) l2) ((null? l2) l1) (else (cons (+ (car l1) (car l2)) (fun (cdr l1) (cdr l2)))))) 22:49:36 xz: ; Value: (3 9 11 5) 22:49:57 GrayShade using your original datum->syntax stuff? 22:50:02 yes 22:50:13 GrayShade fair enough 22:50:22 xz: you missing a number :) 22:50:32 leppie I don't understand why that number should be there 22:50:32 before it was complaining that it couldn't find c. Now I define c in the same file as define-gate, so it can see it. 22:50:35 hellues pasted "sum" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69215 22:50:48 my code works 22:50:49 GrayShade sometimes the errors the expander gives you can be misleading/unhelpful 22:50:54 it is not complete 22:50:58 but it is close 22:51:02 hellues why is there a 4 in the answer? 22:51:08 if l2 is larger than 1 22:51:10 l1 22:51:19 xz: I wouldn't like to keep define-gate in the same file as the other code 22:51:21 it returns wrond 22:51:28 xz, i dont understand 22:51:35 4 ? 22:51:41 rudybot: eval (let fun ((l1 '(1 3 4 5)) (l2 '(2 6 7))) (cond ((null? l1) l2) ((null? l2) (cons 4 l1)) (else (cons (+ (car l1) (car l2)) (fun (cdr l1) (cdr l2)))))) 22:51:41 xz: ; Value: (3 9 11 4 5) 22:51:46 leppie: there =P 22:52:02 or even 22:52:09 rudybot: eval (let fun ((l1 '(1 3 4 5)) (l2 '(2 6 7))) (cond ((null? l1) l2) ((null? l2) (cons (car l2) l1)) (else (cons (+ (car l1) (car l2)) (fun (cdr l1) (cdr l2)))))) 22:52:10 xz: error: car: expects argument of type ; given () 22:52:11 ohhahahaha 22:52:22 cool, what ever it does :) 22:52:31 xz, 22:52:44 can you write this with higer order function 22:52:45 :D 22:53:22 hellues what are you talking about....? 22:53:36 hellues look at my code. you should be able to do anything you want based on that =P 22:53:44 put a lambda around it :) 22:54:34 GrayShade: it sounds like it could be a library/module issue then - not exporting all the required pieces 22:55:08 xz: the library should need to import symbols from the user code 22:55:15 shouldn't need* 22:56:35 -!- hellues [n=hellues@85.102.164.37] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:57:04 another question, can begin and be written as macros? 22:57:28 GrayShade yes... 22:57:46 begin and void* 22:57:47 I' 22:57:53 ve always wondered how 22:58:28 (define-syntax begin (syntax-rules () ((_ e) e) ((_ e e* ...) ((lambda (v) (begin e* ...)) e)))) 22:58:45 is one way 22:58:51 that's cheating :) 22:58:55 ? 22:59:01 why? 22:59:26 why need the 2nd begin? 22:59:46 without the 2nd begin it would be cheating (using the implicit begin of a lambda) 23:00:00 but with the 2nd begin it is a recursive macro that doesn't require any implicit or explicit begins 23:00:11 ahh 23:00:11 maybe I should do it like this: 23:00:30 I guess I was asking if (begin (foo) (bar)) can be made to expand into (foo) (bar) 23:00:32 (define-syntax foo (syntax-rules () ((_ e) e) ((_ e e* ...) ((lambda (x) (foo e* ...)) e)))) 23:00:37 now foo behaves like begin 23:00:45 It's not cheating, but it doesn't work. 23:00:57 foof yeah I didn't test it... what's wrong? 23:01:14 I didn't try it either, but the idea doesn't work. 23:01:19 haha 23:01:45 BEGIN doesn't just sequence, it allows for spliced DEFINEs. 23:02:03 foof` only in definition context 23:02:08 foof` there are two versions of begin 23:02:17 there's the one that sequences expressions 23:02:25 and the one that splices definitions 23:02:33 the second one can also take expressions at the end 23:03:00 I presumed GrayShade only wanted the sequencing one... 23:03:08 (my macro will only work in expression contexts) 23:03:27 -!- npe [n=npe@66.112.249.148] has quit [] 23:03:29 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@gateway.publicvpn.net] has joined #scheme 23:04:03 after R6RS you can use let-syntax to get a splicing begin implicitly... 23:04:06 -!- hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@gateway.publicvpn.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:04:22 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@gateway.publicvpn.net] has joined #scheme 23:04:48 -!- hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@gateway.publicvpn.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:04:49 xz, leppie: thanks. I'm off for now, but expect to see me again tomorrow if I don't manage to solve anything :) 23:05:01 cheers 23:05:18 cheers 23:05:18 -!- GrayShade [i=GrayShad@79.117.183.226] has quit [] 23:09:10 tizoc [n=user@r190-135-39-225.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 23:09:20 npe [i=npe@66.112.249.18] has joined #scheme 23:17:00 Elly? 23:17:11 rudybot: seen Elly 23:17:11 xz: Elly was seen in/on #scheme five hours, sixteen minutes ago, saying "what is match-lambda*?", and then Elly was seen in/on #scheme five hours, sixteen minutes ago, saying "(and what does * mean after a function name?)" 23:17:48 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 23:18:59 -!- foof` [n=user@163.221.157.46] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:19:51 sm [n=sm@pool-71-104-90-132.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 23:20:21 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-35-21.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 23:29:33 xz: ? 23:31:02 -!- tizoc__ [n=user@r190-135-46-5.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:31:58 -!- error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:38:14 -!- fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-084-059-255-123.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:40:15 hellues [n=hellues@85.102.164.37] has joined #scheme 23:42:20 xz, 23:42:23 are you there 23:42:40 lisppaste, url 23:42:41 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste. 23:43:19 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-39-225.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:43:50 helules hi 23:43:57 hellues hi 23:44:14 hellues pasted "sum" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69217 23:44:15 Elly I wrote a vimscript to do my indenting 23:44:27 look at that xz :D 23:44:29 xz: cool :) 23:44:32 -!- vasek [n=vasa@mm-37-88-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 23:45:08 -!- tizoc_ is now known as tizoc 23:45:20 if first lis smaller than l2 it giave error 23:45:21 :D 23:45:28 hellues: change (cons (car l2) l1) to just l1 23:46:42 i changed it 23:46:56 it that moment doesnt return anything 23:46:56 :D 23:48:13 El 23:48:21 Elly [19:17] < xz> rudybot: seen Elly 23:48:23 oops 23:48:26 hellues pasted "sum" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69219 23:48:32 http://paste.lisp.org/display/69218 23:48:35 that's what I meant 23:48:35 :D 23:49:14 I don't know why it didn't show up with lisppaste bot 23:50:55 eheh 23:51:04 :can look address :D 23:54:51 xz, i fix that but i still have problem 23:56:05 hellues annotated #69219 with "sum" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69219#1 23:57:04 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:59:13 just return l1 23:59:21 don't cons it onto l2 which will be null 23:59:34 xz, 23:59:41 does not return anything