00:00:41 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-227-32.dsl.look.ca] has joined #scheme 00:03:10 gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has joined #scheme 00:06:52 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.89] has left #scheme 00:09:07 I have a friend who wants to make a Scheme code repository. If you were to use such a repository, beyond the obvious (up-to-date code, works with your implementation), what would you want from it? 00:11:20 -!- melito [n=melito@70.99.250.82] has quit ["Leaving..."] 00:16:43 arcfide: are you talking about something like github for scheme? 00:16:58 klutometis: I am not familiar with github. 00:17:13 it's a meta-repository of git repositories 00:18:18 klutometis: well, a friend has pleaded with me to design something like a repository of scheme code. I think it would be a meta-repository, but it probably wouldn't be so uniform as git repositories. 00:18:44 so, something like slib but without central control? 00:19:17 or something like sourceforge for scheme? 00:19:18 klutometis: Well, if I were to do it, basically, you would go on, choose a library you want, and get back a package that is suitable for your environment. 00:19:31 This would mean no additional framework or infrastructure. 00:19:44 You should be able to just drop it into your codebase and start using it. 00:20:04 oh, ok; maybe a portable version of chicken-eggs, then 00:20:14 It shouldn't overwrite libraries that you already have, but should provide libraries that you don't have. 00:20:27 It would also not explicitly modify or install anything to your system, unlike Chicken-eggs. 00:20:48 It would just be something like a tarred and gzipped archive that you could extract from your codebase root or some such. 00:20:58 sounds interesting, time consuming, and maybe even useful 00:21:11 In other words, minimalistic, non-intrusive, and simple. 00:21:21 I am not sure I want to do it. 00:21:32 I am not sure it would be useful, but for this one guy who wants it desparately it seems. 00:21:46 I am wondering if anyone else has tried, and if they haven't, if anyone is even interested. 00:22:22 I could potentially find it useful. 00:29:10 It would need to be pretty painless and unobtrusive to entice me away from whatever scheme-specific package delivery thing I'm using. 00:29:30 klutometis: choose -> downoad -> extract -> use. 00:30:18 klutometis: I imagine that if the library already existed in an implementation specific way, it should just provide you with the choice to use the specific one or the general, portable one. 00:30:56 You could take a page from the R book and opt for intra-scheme delivery; something like (extract ): i.e. (extract srfi-70 "svn://example.org") which downloads and untars in the WD 00:31:06 No. 00:31:17 Well . . . yeah, no. 00:31:39 Maybe later I could add an interface like this, but the idea is to not clutter your system with additional code beyond the libraries that you want. 00:32:19 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 00:32:37 So, in other words, I don't want something like CPAN or Chicken which uses code running on my machine to download libraries. I just want the libraries, with no extra framework client-side. 00:32:54 choose -> download -> extract -> use sounds like mouse clicks, though; I like to avoid the browser. 00:33:18 klutometis: I could provide a simple command line program for those who wanted it. 00:33:26 That's interesting. 00:34:38 "lambda-pidgeon --extract --scheme chicken --style modules --no-deps 00:34:56 Or something like that. 00:35:17 I don't want it to clutter your code, or get in the way, so if a browser gets in the way, then a CLI program is in order. 00:35:23 However, if someone wants a browser, why not? 00:37:08 It still remains to be seen whether people consider this useful. 00:37:44 That won't become clear until after you've invested your irrecoverable time; catch 22. 00:38:11 Well, there are other things that I am spending more time on right now, so I am just musing over this at the moment. 00:39:05 Some others have expressed a certain disdain for scheme-portability on here; and I might be inclined to agree: is it really necessary to have cross-scheme-compatible libs? 00:39:16 How aften do you switch schemes mid-stream? 00:39:36 klutometis: Exactly. 00:39:44 Aren't you content just to stick it out in Chez most of the time? 00:40:04 klutometis: I do it almost exclusively for real work, though I toy with others. 00:40:42 I don't see the portability factor as having a benefit at the level of the user switching Schemes, since the code generated by this contraption would not be portable. 00:41:17 Rather, I would be inclined to like it (if it becomes something I like) because it might permit users to write their code in one, and then have a relatively easy way to make sure that others can have the code without trouble. 00:41:33 The idea being, to support more code sharing between implementations. This is probably a pipe dream. 00:41:43 On the other hand, much code I have used is already portable. 00:41:57 That is one of the reasons I am using it. I don't have to work very hard to make it work on Chez. 00:44:52 It may be that scheme-specific packages are just good enough to frustrate scheme-unifying efforts; there's a certain evil in the "just good enough". 00:44:56 On the other hand, portable packages may be what scheme needs to become the next "Python"; if indeed that's desirable. 00:45:28 klutometis: I see no reason to not fight for both of the repo types to exist. Why should you duplicate effort? 00:45:43 If a repo has an implementation of a library already made, then just reference it in the portable repo. 00:45:58 If it doesn't, then permit them to get it. 00:46:03 Oh, I see; then it submits to Occham's razor after all. 00:46:09 Occham? 00:46:23 "Don't multiply entities unnecessarily." 00:46:34 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ockham_razor 00:46:36 Of course, if they would rather have the portable version, then give it to them. 00:47:53 Indeed; for such a thing to succeed, I think it would have to respect the law of parsimony and not duplicate efforts. 00:48:57 klutometis: Having heard this much, do you think that it is useful? 00:49:01 Do you think it is worth the work? 00:54:48 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:55:14 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 01:13:58 arcfide: If it succeeds in pythonizing scheme, you'll be famous; on the other hand, schemers are a surly bunch who disdain ease and unity. 01:14:01 I'd use it if it made my life easier, though; i.e. spared me from porting packages myself. 01:15:01 saccade__ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 01:17:12 ...and improved the findability of packages. 01:17:13 allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #scheme 01:22:27 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:24:19 OceanSpray [n=karl@CMU-301252.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 01:24:55 xz [n=ramana@c-98-228-42-177.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:25:04 hello all 01:28:06 xz: Hey there. 01:28:17 We've just been discussing Pidgeon Coops. 01:31:29 good response? 01:31:42 xz: check the topic, read the logs. 01:32:05 Basically, we have one potentially interested party. 01:32:10 You can see what we've been up to. 01:32:25 jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:32:50 What is a pidgeon coop? 01:33:14 kilimanjaro: It's my codename for the Portable Scheme Library Repository. 01:34:14 Ohh I think I read "coop" as "co-op" and didn't associate "pidgeon" with the bird because of that 01:35:48 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-95-99.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:36:46 I like the idea of just providing the implementation-specific package if it exists 01:37:26 the point is to have somewhere were a programmer can go to 1) find what's out there 2) contribute 3) read docs 4) provide comments/bugs etc. 01:37:59 a single place. i think it would be useful to aggregate all the good code out there in various package/free floating formats 01:38:18 xz: And you've seen the others that have come before you? 01:38:46 the ones you sent in email? well, i looked briefly just now 01:39:02 the ones I saw required installing the framework on your client 01:39:11 as soon as there's more than one of those 01:39:17 it's too much effort to decide which one to install 01:39:25 too much space/effort to install everything 01:39:46 Well, I will be back soon. I have to get some food now, but please, do hash it out with whomever is interested here. 01:41:02 people who want/need to port from one package format to another can do so if the port doesn't exist yet, and put it up in the same place 01:43:26 has anyone written a web browser in scheme? 01:44:06 xz: Yes, quite a few even. 01:44:31 where would you go to find it? 01:44:38 oh shoot 01:44:47 I thought you meant web server :/ 01:44:54 I can't read today. 01:45:24 i know there are servers (but again, where would you go to find it? google probably, but is there a central place? maybe PLT land) 01:46:15 Making a web browser in anything would be monumentally stupid at this point. xp Browsers are so full of cruft because they try to be kitchen sink applications. 01:46:46 do you think they're useful? 01:46:48 When I need to write a browser, I usually just need to write a GUI with a much more simple and efficient protocol designed for the application. 01:47:15 is there a good way to write a gui in scheme? 01:48:25 i agree that browsers are bloated, but i use my browser a lot. i've done away with bloated window managers and bloated operating systems, but i'm still attached to the browser and don't see an easy way to cut it down. 01:49:14 i mean i don't see any existing alternatives 01:49:34 to firefox. except chrome - but that's only for windows so far. 01:49:44 xz: plt has some good webpage documentation, with all the modules in it and such. Including "scheme/gui" and "web-server" 01:49:45 Ah, well I can't help you there. The requirement for "javascript" pretty much puts a stake in any attempt to make a small browser. 01:49:53 Nevermind flash crap, or ActiveSUX 01:50:01 what about a scheme javascript system? 01:50:24 it's been done 01:50:38 Adamant: ah and where would you go to find it? 01:50:50 is it any good? 01:51:00 xz: no clue, there was a compiler to compile Scheme to Javascript 01:51:04 it was slow 01:51:10 okay 01:51:23 It's like the worst case of feature creep ever. People writing efficient code just can't bear to deal with it. So projects like "dillo" fall on the wayside... 01:51:49 in what sense does dillo fall? 01:51:55 not enough users? not enough developers? 01:52:17 The project has been dead for years, last I checked. 01:52:24 Not enough developers yeah. 01:52:42 so the developers evidently gave up and went back to bloated browsers / no browsers (somehow) 01:52:44 The choice to go with FLTK instead of GTK2 was not a popular one... it pretty much ended after that. 01:52:51 Right. 01:52:51 oh I see 01:53:23 well I think having a central repository for scheme code _could_ help with a big project like on the order of a web browser 01:53:37 if there was some incentive to keep improving things 01:53:39 There's just an ever decreasing amount of websites that don't require all that junk to even function, so minimalist browsers keep getting pushed more into un-usefulness. 01:54:00 xz: Try "planet scheme". That's um... plt specific though I think. 01:54:11 I'm not talking exactly about minimalist browsers... but about efficient browsers 01:54:20 Javascript is required. deal. 01:54:25 Oh firefox is very efficient. 01:54:47 yeah planet scheme is pretty big... but the problem I have with plt is that the scheme system isn't very fast 01:54:58 firefox is what i'm using. it's the best out there so far. 01:55:02 and has been redone "minimalist" multiple times... 01:55:03 but i'm sure it could be better. 01:55:10 the only javascript my website uses is something that removes external frames, and otherwise has no effect on the website at all. 01:56:07 xz: You'd have better luck patching firefox honestly. 01:56:53 synx you don't think writing scheme code is faster to do than c++ and xul and stuff? 01:56:57 Oh and an automatic "go" function when you select from a menu... but get this... there's also A GO BUTTON (what a concept!) 01:57:04 xz: No. 01:57:28 I think the algorithm is what most determines the speed. Bad code is slow no matter what language you use. 01:57:35 I don't mean the running speed 01:57:38 I mean the development speed 01:57:41 I just like scheme because they haven't banned me here yet. :) 01:58:27 the rate at which features can be put in or taken out of the project 01:59:09 I don't know if the development speed is faster either. Both have lengthy and independant debugging issues, C++ and Scheme. I definitely think XUL is slow to develop on though. 01:59:22 *arcfide* rereads the chat. 01:59:25 Most people can't even find those signing tools anymore to make extensions with. 02:00:05 well forget about xul. i think a well designed scheme project has a lot more potential to get developed flexibly and faster 02:00:33 what i mean to say is that a scheme project has more potential to be well designed 02:01:14 so who said anything about gui on scheme? i don't think i got a reply 02:01:20 apart from planet 02:01:40 That's interesting. 02:01:42 although - plt stuff can be ported, so the question is whether it's any good 02:02:02 What gives a scheme project more potential to be well designed compared to a C++ project? 02:02:07 when you have scheme macros, you have much more flexible development 02:02:13 i think 02:02:18 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:02:19 because you can try things out easily 02:02:32 try on design decisions and undo them as you see the consequences 02:02:42 i'm talking about code design here 02:02:49 Oh ok. 02:02:56 I misunderstood then :) 02:02:57 not gui design or interface design - that comes up too but code design is important 02:03:25 and i'm sure they're related 02:03:39 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 02:03:50 echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-32eddb3ed9e988a8] has joined #scheme 02:03:56 so what does arcfide think of the chat? 02:03:59 xz: PLT Scheme code is hard to port because of the myriad of interdependencies. 02:04:12 do you know if it is worth porting? 02:04:21 xz: The most work I ever did in porting a library was to port the PLT Scheme based SchemeQL code. 02:04:23 even if it was easier to do it 02:04:36 i don't know much about plt code - just hearsay 02:04:38 xz: combined, PLT Scheme's GUI code is not easy or possible to port easily. 02:04:50 any other GUI code out there? 02:04:59 xz: The better options are the graphical bindings which exists elsewhere. 02:05:13 arcfide ah what do you mean specifically? 02:05:18 xz: There are Motif bindings somewhere, there are some GTK and Qt bindings I have heard of as well. 02:05:46 arcfide shouldn't they be in some central place? 02:05:56 xz: I don't think that should be a requirement. 02:06:04 Centralization is overrated. 02:06:14 okay 02:06:17 do you know how to find them? 02:06:23 It can be useful, yes, but not something I would say is some herald of salvation. 02:06:27 xz: Search. 02:06:48 haha.. yeah search. okay but if I didn't know what I was looking for... 02:06:52 xz: If you want GUI bindings, you might start with something like Chicken or some of the others that have some kind of OpenGL bindings. 02:06:57 arcfide: Would that be... a centralized search? 02:06:58 I guess I would have to come here on this IRC (which I didn't know about until you mentioned it) 02:07:29 Searching via IRC is pretty neat. 02:07:56 I remember when I first wanted to learn scheme because I had heard rumours about it... it took so so long to actually do it 02:08:09 Actually, what I would find useful is a searching and serving of scheme code, which is what I propose for Pidgeon, which is different than storing all the code. I don't want to force people to update yet another repository. 02:08:16 xz: any interesting rumors? 02:08:33 Pidgeon? 02:08:41 gui stuff means ffi, ffi means you are tied to particular scheme vm, forget about portability... 02:08:51 schme_ i can't remember specifics. i just remember an aura of "you have to find out more about this" for lisp 02:08:53 synx: It's my name for a portable repository of scheme code. 02:09:02 xz: Cools :) 02:09:17 Oh okay. So not normal repository tools like CVS? 02:09:29 but it took ages partly because there are so many implementations and partly because the other resources are... hard to find... or incomplete in various ways 02:09:33 xz: As for web stuff, Oleg and others have written plenty of it. 02:09:57 synx: I would expect the repository to be available via Gopher, CVS, WWW, and CLI. 02:10:06 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-6-111.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 02:10:16 arcfide scheme specific search could be useful, yeah.. 02:10:20 perhaps wrtie scheme "browser" than produces well defined rendering design like svg or vrml and then create portable renderes... 02:10:24 arcfide of code intended for reuse 02:10:30 xz: I consider the variety and range of code and implementations to be a good thing. And I agree that a specific search engine could be good. 02:10:34 -!- tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has quit [] 02:11:02 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-58-207.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 02:11:04 arcfide i think the variety is good too. but if I hadn't come to this scheme-centric university i would never have been able to learn enough scheme - it's too difficult to get into it from the outside 02:11:05 -!- tizoc_ is now known as tizoc 02:11:19 xz: How so? 02:11:30 Not that difficult. Nobody ever taught me a word of scheme. 02:11:42 xz: I came to it because my father recommended I try Lisp. I did some research, found Scheme, started learning, and voila. 02:12:03 arcfide: Lucky bastard! My dad recommended I try Ada. 02:13:02 i learned enough scheme to write some simple recursive program on my own... but not much about macros. i don't think i found tspl (maybe i just suck at searching) 02:14:03 oh you know the other thing i would be interested in... 02:14:08 projects wanting developers in scheme 02:14:10 is there a list? 02:14:18 I come here because there isn't a really elegant Forth implementation out there. 02:14:28 have you seen factorcode.org? 02:14:29 xz: That's harder to find. 02:14:42 no 02:14:48 by the way factor is great because there's just one website 02:14:50 oh wait, yes 02:14:51 not an entire internet 02:15:10 xz: Fine fine, I'll start working on the bird poop. 02:15:21 xz: Let me finish updating my own sites first, though. ;-) 02:15:23 synx did you try it out? 02:15:43 synx i haven't tried factor yet, but i was pretty interested by the joy papers - have you read them? 02:16:03 Weird, I can't remember what my problem is with factor. Maybe I'll take a look at it later. 02:16:22 arcfide sure. i'm not sure we've actually decided what we want from a repo 02:16:40 Well, I know what I would want, so we can go from there. 02:16:40 The only grammar simpler than a lisp-like one would be Forth-style. <3 02:16:51 yes 02:17:01 synx so have you seen joy and cat too? 02:17:08 xz: you suggested a bunch of commenting and interaction type features. I would like to avoid this. 02:17:14 I've seen Joy. It's good as an extension language... 02:17:16 arcfide how come? 02:17:31 It harms clarity and simplicity. 02:17:35 synx i think cat is a toy mostly, but it's pretty nice and small, and there's a scheme interpreter for it 02:17:50 synx factor is self hosting 02:17:52 It then becomes more like the political ground of a Wiki, rather than an useful, reliable repository with a no-nonesense application and utility. 02:18:05 arcfide i see - but what about bug reporting? 02:18:18 arcfide should go upstream or something? 02:18:24 xz: Bugs should be sent directory to the library creators 02:18:28 hah, factor is run on a factor webserver? 02:18:36 synx well, that too 02:18:38 All bugs should go upstream. 02:18:45 synx but i meant the compiler is written in factor 02:18:48 And we should not be mirroring large sets of repositories. 02:18:48 awesome 02:19:09 synx like chez scheme is written in scheme 02:19:10 well yes, any language should be able to compile itself. 02:19:11 We should avoid harming the workflows of developers if possible. 02:19:19 xz: Not all of it. 02:19:20 arcfide agreed 02:19:34 arcfide mostly - mostly applies to the factor one too 02:19:39 Even C is written in C. ...except when it's in B. 02:19:57 xz: I do agree that a commit log is important. 02:20:22 synx the interesting thing about concatenative languages is that they don't use the concept of function application 02:20:27 synx the concept is function composition 02:20:36 synx there's no application - it's like all rewriting 02:20:57 synx the author of joy wrote a nice paper on this topic (which is what i'm remembering) 02:21:33 I don't understand... when you put a function word down even in Joy, it then calls that function... applies it? Hm... 02:21:43 Functions don't have arguments, so I guess it's different than applying? 02:21:53 xz: Was your question a[bout SLIB/Snow/CSAN/Common Scheme clarified? 02:22:04 -!- allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Success] 02:22:07 arcfide i don't think so - which question ? =P 02:22:15 arcfide "what's wrong with them?" 02:22:18 ? 02:22:26 Yes. 02:22:39 the main problem i've seen is that you have to install framework 02:22:46 what else is wrong? 02:23:01 The problem with them is that they interfere and obstruct the implementation workflow. They impose a certain methodoloty on the programmer which artifically limits the ways in which the code can be used. 02:23:18 synx http://www.latrobe.edu.au/philosophy/phimvt/joy/j00rat.html 02:23:28 This is fundamentally wrong in the Scheme world. 02:23:32 arcfide ah yes - you have to use the right package format 02:23:32 At least, IMO. 02:24:13 arcfide but how do you use code if you don't know anything about the interface? that's why there are (all these different) formats at all 02:24:39 You don't. 02:24:41 could it just be different everywhere and documented? 02:25:01 or you have automatic conversion between all the popular formats? 02:25:14 i mean r6rs was partly meant to standardize a format for portability... and it didn't do everything 02:25:23 The difference that I suspect arcfide is trying to get at is whether the package description format changes the language that one uses to write the programs or whether it is purely descriptive. 02:25:48 so i think snow is just descriptive, right? 02:25:56 xz: Not from what I saw. 02:26:00 No, xz. 02:26:09 i don't know it in detail - just glanced 02:26:09 None of which I am aware is descriptive. 02:26:10 xz: It's not descriptive if it requires you to use another construct that is foreign to you in your code. 02:26:11 dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:26:39 Rather, the list of dependencies should be tracked in a way that can be translated into useful implementation specific code that doesn't change the way an user of said implementation would do things. 02:26:52 is there a construct that is not foreign to anyone that will specify the exports of some piece of code, though? 02:26:59 can a package get away without that? 02:27:11 Riastradh: You managed to stay out of this discussion rather well. :-) Either you've been away, show remarkable disinterest, or remarkable restraint. :-) 02:27:48 annodomini_ [n=lambda@c-75-69-95-99.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:28:27 xz: You can automatic a large portion of library dependencies in simple cases and for well written code. It is much more difficult to do so for code that is poorly or strangely written, or for code that is more complex. If you embark on such a journey, you will potentially waste many hours of your time. 02:28:43 s/automatic/automate/ 02:29:23 xhanjian [n=Jan@218.109.70.212] has joined #scheme 02:29:28 what do you think of r6rs library format? 02:29:45 is it a good idea to have the format in the standard? i would have thought so. 02:29:57 (irrespective of how good the r6rs format actually is) 02:30:03 xz: I'm not a fan of R6RS in general. It's nice to have a library form, but the proposed form is needlessly complex. 02:30:15 a library form is very important, i think. 02:30:41 i don't like the various excesses and restrictions of the r6rs library form, but i like the idea that the language has a library form. 02:31:03 It is useful. I find modules more useful, but libraries have their place. 02:31:04 The design of the LIBRARY form inhibits the flexibility of the description of the code; specifically, the LIBRARY form is analyzed after the code is read. 02:31:23 So any decisions that must be made before the code is read must be made before the information in the LIBRARY form is to be processed. 02:31:25 riastradh: i don't understand what you mean 02:31:43 This includes, for example, with what lexical syntax to read the code, or whether to read the code at all. 02:32:09 read by whom? 02:32:36 Say, a development environment that presents the graph of dependencies between components in a large program. 02:32:41 arcfide i like the modules better too ,but they're not standard, so they're not a nice way to publish code 02:32:45 Riastradh: It was my understanding that one would likely change the lexical syntax using #! options. 02:33:39 arcfide, yes, because the design of the LIBRARY form is too inflexible to include that information. 02:33:44 Right. 02:33:56 Of course, this doesn't change the issue of having to read the form or not. 02:34:11 xz, to produce a graph of dependencies between components in a large program, the code in the components is irrelevant. 02:34:21 arcfide, what distinction are you drawing between `module' and `library'? 02:34:35 riastradh: i don't think that's true - are you saying it is true, or it should be true? 02:34:49 xz, what are `that' and `it' here? 02:35:10 riastradh: that = "to produce a graph of dependencies between components in a large program, the code in teh components is irrelevant" 02:35:11 Riastradh: Library being a form whose main purpose is to express interdependencies of whole chunks of code for portable transmission between systems. 02:35:32 xz, what relevance does the contents of the components have to a graph of the dependencies between components? 02:35:41 Modules being a form designed for the improvement of overall clarity and isolation of code within some program. 02:35:42 what is a 'component'? 02:35:55 xz, `library', `module', `package', whatever your favourite synonym is. 02:36:03 riastradh: libraries and modules are different 02:36:09 riastradh: using arcfide's terminology 02:36:19 xz: Only if you define them differently. My definitions are rather loose. 02:36:22 I don't understand the distinction he's drawing. 02:36:40 a library is a portable unit of code. 02:36:47 a module is a form for controlling lexical scope 02:36:56 Libraries don't control lexical scope? 02:37:20 Riastradh: The distinction would be that one would not expect to or want to find multiple library forms inside a single program, but would rather use it for the express purpose of allowing other scheme implementations or users to identify imports and exports, and to use them in a valid way. 02:37:22 When you say `module', do you perhaps mean `Chez module'? 02:37:23 they do, but that's not the purpose. libraries are standalone - they don't nest. 02:37:33 riastradh: that's what i have in mind 02:37:42 Riastradh: I think of Chez Modules, yes, but I think the distinction should apply maybe to Scheme48 modules as well. 02:38:00 xz: Must be a good article, puts me to sleep reading it :) 02:38:08 OK, xz. Please be specific about this -- the terms under discussion have all been used variously in different ways by different people at different times. 02:38:22 synx haha yeah it's "for theoretical computer scientists" or something like that 02:38:26 In Scheme48, for example, a `module' is completely different beast from what are called modules in Chez. 02:38:31 hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD059133117089.ppp.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 02:38:59 Riastradh: He's coming from a Chez Module and R6RS library distinction. 02:39:20 I think a library is something you would want to make avaliable to the public, it's like a package. 02:39:38 My point of view is that modules serve as implementation specific library forms, but that library forms should be simpler, and easier to port forms which allow mostly for portability of code. 02:39:48 xz, please try to stick to terms you have defined specifically, without analogy to other terms. 02:40:07 `Package', `module', `library', &c., as I said, have all been used variously with different meanings by different people at different times. 02:40:26 Among PLT's libraries are a reimplementation of Chez modules with the name `package'. Clear? 02:40:30 all right. so what is your question? what is the question behind all this? 02:41:00 xz: Whether a library form is useful, or did we cover that? 02:41:13 Ah, yes, the limitations of R6RS libraries. 02:41:21 The requirements of reading the code. 02:41:36 Riastradh: I think in Scheme48, you specify dependencies independent of code, right? 02:42:06 Ah I remember 02:42:10 I wanted to know what a 'component' is 02:42:18 A Chez module is obviously inextricable from the Scheme code in which it is used. An R6RS library, however, is an entity associated with but separate from the code within it; there is information in libraries that can be usefully analyzed independent of the code. 02:42:36 But the design of R6RS libraries precludes the extraction of this information separately from the code. 02:42:52 Riastradh I understand what you mean now 02:43:11 Riastradh library form is too closely connected to the code 02:43:39 Riastradh what information and why would you need it? 02:43:54 Dependency graphs, for example. 02:44:19 Riastradh i'm not sure what they are / what the point of them is 02:44:26 Suppose I'm on a networked file system with a cluster of machines for building, and I'm working on a multi-zillion file Scheme system. 02:44:57 xz: They are invoke/visit dependencies and export environments, in the terminology you know. 02:45:05 There is a partial order in which the different parts of the Scheme system must be compiled. 02:45:33 arcfide if ikarus were compiling some script in this multi-zillion file system, what problem would it have? 02:45:34 This partial order is isomorphic to the dependency graph. 02:45:47 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:46:03 i mean running some script 02:46:04 xz: That's a lot of code to grok. 02:46:24 but how can you be less stupid about it? 02:46:24 Being able to examine the dependencies without having to go through all the code is very useful. 02:46:27 In order to determine this partial order, and perhaps parallelize the build as much as I want, the R6RS currently requires that whatever is doing this analysis read all of the code in the system. 02:46:45 This is because all the information of a library is inextricably linked to the code in the library. 02:46:49 it won't read code in libraries that are never imported 02:46:50 right? 02:46:58 Those libraries aren't interesting. 02:47:15 xz: it has to parse all the libraries to extract the dependencies. 02:47:18 okay so you're talking about imported libraries whose exports are never referenced? 02:47:23 No, xz. 02:47:33 I'm talking about a collection of any libraries at all with any dependency graph at all, however horrible it might be. 02:48:00 you're saying you have to read to the closing ) of the library form before you can look at the import and export lists? 02:48:24 is that the problem? 02:48:32 That, or you need a specialized reader, which is silly. 02:48:44 right - they went half way 02:48:49 they made the library a form in the language 02:48:53 but then they made you have to put the lists up top 02:49:00 so you can use a custom reader 02:49:05 which, i agree, is silly 02:49:46 For that matter, you need a specialization of every lexical syntax that you support, identified by the `#!' tokens. 02:50:07 so libraries should be more like containers and less like language forms? 02:51:17 this might have bearing on what the libraries look like on the pidgeon coop - unless arcfide was just planning to link to author downloads or something 02:51:24 they should be declarations outside of langueage they describe... 02:51:54 what information should be declared for a library? 02:52:11 xz: Are you familiar with the way other systems do modules? 02:52:29 arcfide not really. just from brief looks today. 02:52:45 xz: one you might examine is the Scheme48 packaging system. 02:54:30 arcfide yeah that looks pretty good (brief skim on schemewiki) 02:56:09 hmm did r6rs writers know about this system? 02:56:11 Just FYI: The design of Scheme module systems is non-trivial. If a brief skim suffices for you to evaluate the design of one, then either you possess a thorough understanding of most of the issues involved, or you are probably missing a lot. 02:56:41 I'm missing a lot, but I can still have an impression. 02:56:48 xz: R6RS faced a lot of differing opinions, and no one agrees on how a module system should be done. 02:57:10 Chez modules, for example, are built on an entirely different footing than Scheme48's. 02:57:18 Riastradh do you feel like talking about the issues? 03:02:04 elmex_ [n=elmex@e180067025.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 03:04:52 -!- sm [n=sm@pool-71-107-248-161.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:07:56 p1dzkl [i=p1dzkl@2001:470:d0be:0:0:0:0:13] has joined #scheme 03:09:06 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-69-143-195-98.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:12:09 Mein [i=Mein@D-69-91-148-10.dhcp4.washington.edu] has joined #scheme 03:12:14 Hey everyone 03:12:30 Yeah, yeah; that's what they all say ... at first 03:12:33 Does scheme have a built in method that will check if an input contains a certain string or value? 03:13:06 For example, I was hoping it would be something along the lines of (contains? blah hahablahaha) would return #t 03:13:15 what's the blah? 03:13:20 sorry 03:13:28 For example, I was hoping it would be something along the lines of (contains? 'blah 'hahablahaha) would return #t 03:13:38 So basically they are just both strings in this example 03:13:43 Mein: PLT scheme has that 03:13:50 Oh yeh? 03:13:50 others may or may not; it's not part of any standard 03:13:55 Do you know what the function is? 03:13:59 yeah. Wanna make something of it? 03:14:03 I have PLT and contains doesnt work 03:14:07 I think it's "regexp-match" 03:14:14 hole on I'll check 03:14:56 yep, regexp-match will do it 03:15:02 you can give it a string _or_ an input port 03:15:09 I assume it consumes characters from the port 03:15:23 Oh cool 03:15:27 Thanks 03:15:37 most schemes will have _some_ kind of regexp matching. 03:16:13 is there a regexp srfi? or something? 03:16:32 dunno 03:16:32 mein those look like symbols, not strings to me, just by the way... 03:16:36 check srfi.org 03:17:17 xz: foof has writeen a regex library here that I think is proported to be rather good. 03:17:38 arcfide where is it? does foof have a homepage? 03:18:03 -!- elmex [n=elmex@e180067112.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:18:07 -!- elmex_ is now known as elmex 03:18:07 foof loop is pretty awesome, and you're the only person i can imagine knows that it exists (apart from foof) - am i wrong? 03:18:22 xz: Foof-loop is written by Riastradh. 03:18:30 okay 03:18:30 xz: It was named in honor of Foof. 03:18:49 xz: Riastradh's code repo is . 03:18:50 in that case I mean "(apart from Riastradh)" 03:19:06 hey, I made a PLaneT package of "foof loop" 03:19:23 xz: You can find Foof's IrRegex Library at offby1 ah - okay. so I think I just don't know the right people yet =) 03:20:14 "The Baker Street IrRegexes" 03:20:27 xz: thank you. That'll be $750 please 03:20:42 xz: You can also find Skip Lists in Riastradh's code. I find them very useful. 03:21:01 I guess I'm talking with the wrong crowd to ask this, but I too am curious who uses foof-loop. 03:21:10 Of course, I have a working fixnum vector iterator now, too, and I'll probably write a generic priority queue iterator for skip lists soon. 03:21:28 Riastradh: I use it all the time, and find it very very useful. 03:21:31 ;-) 03:21:36 I never skip; it makes people doubt my masculinity 03:21:41 I am spreading it around to some people in Indiana as well. 03:21:50 offby1: that just means you're not masculine enough to skip. 03:21:56 Riastradh I will probably use it in the future, but I wouldn't have known anything about it if not for arcfide. same with skip lists - by the way, I can see that they are not as well documented... 03:22:18 xz: They are documented via comments in the code, and well, I might add. 03:22:31 xz: Not quite at the foof loop level, but who needs that for Skip Lists? 03:22:44 oh right 03:22:45 I see 03:23:25 Riastradh: I find that many people just don't know how to find Scheme code, and they think that "write your own" is the "Scheme way," so many people don't know that foof-loop exists. Others don't care. 03:23:48 I think most people would care 03:23:55 I ran a short little test with some people on CLS, and found that most of them don't really have the time to bother. Those that take a little time to read find it useful. 03:24:12 The people in St. Louis whom I introduced to Foof Loop all found it highly appealing. 03:24:30 Foofy Loops 03:24:41 I don't remember much about foof-loop, but I think it's similar to what's now in PLT v4 03:24:59 offby1: *Gasp* you don't use foof loop? 03:25:18 offby1: It has the foof(r) brand, and it's Riastradh's brain child. You heathen! 03:25:38 offby1: How can that kind of name and brand power fail to affect and sway consumers like yourself? 03:26:43 do you think "write your own" is the "scheme way"? if not, what is the scheme way? 03:26:51 *offby1* sobs 03:26:54 xz: Hoard your own. 03:26:54 I'm a monster 03:26:59 look away, I'm hideous 03:27:18 hoard your own - yeah that's good, accurate.. 03:27:18 xz: the "Scheme Way" is: write your own scheme :-| 03:27:25 offby1: there there, a little foof(r) brand syntactic make-up will make your ugly code go right away! 03:27:27 I tihnk the `Scheme way' is to perpetually meta-discuss Scheme to meta-death until you run out of dough and have to find employment as a grunt IT sysadmin who deals with PHP exploits for a living. 03:27:27 offby1 haha yes. 03:27:53 haha PHP exploits that's so true 03:27:55 Riastradh haha yes. 03:27:58 That, or to not care about `the Scheme way'. 03:28:02 yes but foof loop is out there 03:28:04 it is useable 03:28:07 it is progress 03:28:08 The first rule of scheme is: you do not talk about scheme. 03:28:13 *offby1* is like the samurai: he is already dead 03:28:19 the "scheme code base" is better than it was before 03:28:49 i think there should be more ... momentum to create and publish good scheme code 03:29:10 maybe plt sucks all of that into the plt machine (i actually don't know much about plt... it seems like an all-or-none investment?) 03:29:57 ? 03:30:00 it's just a scheme 03:30:08 as schemes go, it's pretty full-featured 03:30:25 it happens to be my favorite, but opinions vary. I don't think Riastradh or arcfide are fans, for example 03:30:31 what I think I meant was once you go PLT you're not likely to go back because you'll miss all the features...? 03:30:37 I dunno. 03:30:39 Try It And See. 03:30:56 xz: I used to use PLT Scheme. I switched. I survived. ;-) 03:30:56 as it happens, you've described _my_ experience perfectly. But as we nerds like to say, Your Mileage May Vary. 03:31:01 aha! 03:31:03 a data point! 03:31:10 arcfide why did you switch? 03:31:12 *offby1* drags arcfide intot he lab 03:31:22 xz: It didn't suit me. 03:31:24 he can't answer you;he's under scrutiny 03:31:30 Oh, right. 03:31:32 -!- wastrel [n=wastrel@nylug/member/wastrel] has quit ["sleep time is now"] 03:31:32 yea... I fiured 03:31:44 I'm on an NDA until PLT Scheme can counteract my influence. 03:32:09 NDAs can't possibly be legal. 03:32:17 Basically, PLT Scheme was too big, didn'g provide the features that I wanted, and was hard to distribute. Chez was also faster for my needs. 03:32:40 okay 03:32:49 The infrastructure was too complex for my tastes, so I did away with it. 03:32:55 I guess I don't have any "needs" so I can't really be thinking about choosing a scheme system 03:33:38 I also got to the point where the cost of porting libraries wasn't very big compared to the time I could save working in a Scheme with an environment I liked. 03:34:28 pretty good answer 03:35:01 where did you find your needs? 03:35:21 xz: MIT Scheme and Chez Scheme, but I spend most of my time in Chez. 03:35:26 my needs are out in the weeds 03:36:28 no I mean 03:36:34 where did you find the needs that MIT and Chez serviced? 03:36:47 xz: You mean, how did I figure out what I wanted? 03:37:04 I guess 03:37:08 what do you use them for ? =P 03:37:45 I found a rare purple flower and scaled the highest snowy peak in Alaska carrying a hibernating bear, and then fed that bear a tea made from the flower. He gained speech and told me what I needed. 03:37:54 Or was it a penguin? 03:38:01 Hard to tell these days. 03:38:08 haha.. 03:38:39 Honestly, I just figured out what I like. 03:39:13 I had ample opportunity to just play around with things and find out what I liked and didn't like. I wrote code, and eventually decided that if I wanted to write more code, this is what I wanted. 03:40:35 I see 03:43:28 hemulen [n=hemulen@12-187-217-2.att-inc.com] has joined #scheme 03:46:07 It may be more accurate to say foof-loop is my brainchild with the Riastradh brand. 03:46:49 The original idea and implementation were mine. Riastradh's implementation is cleaner, more featureful and much better documented though. 03:52:06 foof: true. 03:57:12 -!- gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has left #scheme 03:58:38 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-199-195-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:00:20 kilimanjaro: isn't coop parsed co-op a harvard thing? 04:01:31 klutometis, it may very well be 04:01:37 Can anyone tell me why this returns false (char? 'a) 04:01:48 Mein: 'a is a symbol 04:01:48 In PLT 04:02:00 'a == (quote a) 04:02:05 I see 04:02:13 So what would return true then? 04:02:22 symbol? 04:02:40 But then wouldn't symbol return true for any expression starting with '? 04:02:52 For instance (symbol? '(1 2 3)) 04:02:53 rudybot: eval (char? #\a) 04:02:53 klutometis: ; Value: #t 04:03:20 rudybot: eval (symbol? '(1 2 3)) 04:03:21 Mein: ; Value: #f 04:03:30 rudybot: eval (symbol? 'a) 04:03:30 Mein: ; Value: #t 04:03:37 Ok cool 04:03:39 Thanks guys 04:03:42 np 04:03:48 np-hard, that is 04:04:58 -!- hemulen [n=hemulen@12-187-217-2.att-inc.com] has quit [] 04:05:37 has anyone ever read bellman's dynamic programming? 04:06:41 though i could understand them post hoc, i was always mystified by the solutions to LCS, matrix-chain, edit distance, etc. 04:07:14 -!- Mein [i=Mein@D-69-91-148-10.dhcp4.washington.edu] has quit [] 04:09:31 so i thought i'd go to the source; although recharacterising dyn. progr. as a "stochastic multi-stage decision process" is only nominally clearer 04:11:57 grettke [n=grettke@CPE-65-31-132-59.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 04:12:37 if "stochastic multi-stage decision process" is clearer than X, I don't want to see X 04:12:49 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-227-32.dsl.look.ca] has quit ["Where is the glory in complying with demands?"] 04:14:38 hemulen [n=hemulen@12-187-217-2.att-inc.com] has joined #scheme 04:22:14 -!- hemulen [n=hemulen@12-187-217-2.att-inc.com] has quit ["He rode off into the sunset. . ."] 04:22:24 -!- z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:23:23 I'll mail you those. 04:23:40 xz: ^^ 04:25:44 I am not sure Chez's users are so Wiki oriented, but I could be very wrong. 04:26:09 grettke: ^^ 04:27:33 -!- tjafk1 [n=timj@e176221043.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:27:50 tjafk1 [n=timj@e176192232.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 04:28:21 huh? 04:28:48 xz: Oh, nothing, I was just pointing you to some of my typing directed at you. 04:30:21 Other than that, I am not sure how much new code many of the users want shared. Lot's of it is probably in-house. 04:30:32 Blast, grettke, sorry: ^^^. 04:30:40 z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #scheme 04:42:41 -!- grettke [n=grettke@CPE-65-31-132-59.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [] 04:50:01 sm [n=sm@pool-71-107-248-161.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 05:00:44 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["strawberry"] 05:03:59 -!- annodomini_ [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 05:18:13 yezhao [n=yezhao@202.96.19.49] has joined #scheme 05:23:37 pantsd [n=hkarau@129-97-136-156.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #scheme 05:30:50 Mein [n=jono@75.151.117.138] has joined #scheme 05:31:51 Hey everyone - just a quick question - are you able to do the following (let ((a (proc1 10)) (b (proc2 20)) (+ a b)) 05:32:17 So basically, set the variables a and b to the result of calling functions proc1 and proc2? 05:34:32 -!- OceanSpray [n=karl@CMU-301252.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:36:03 -!- Mein [n=jono@75.151.117.138] has quit [] 05:36:28 OceanSpray [n=karl@LEMON.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 05:57:47 -!- foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:57:57 Mein: Did you try it out? 05:58:04 Riastradh: Ping. 06:11:52 -!- GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-235-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has left #scheme 06:20:24 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 06:21:06 borism [n=boris@m213-102-82-77.cust.tele2.ee] has joined #scheme 06:38:52 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 06:39:58 fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-084-059-043-004.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 06:41:37 -!- pantsd [n=hkarau@129-97-136-156.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:46:56 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-31-34.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 06:48:27 foof [n=user@naist-wavenet126-037.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 06:49:16 -!- yezhao [n=yezhao@202.96.19.49] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 06:51:16 -!- borism [n=boris@m213-102-82-77.cust.tele2.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 07:02:18 -!- dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:03:54 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-6-111.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:07:49 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 07:14:39 Hey, in the plt quick tutorial it shows the results as graphics, but all I see with (circle 10) is # 07:15:22 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.104] has joined #scheme 07:16:48 Oh it's probably because I don't load the slideshow...which means what exactly I haven't a clue. 07:18:32 Yeah that did it. 07:21:41 well that was fun and pointless :3 07:31:32 morning 07:51:58 underspecified [n=eric@clair18.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 07:55:59 hm.. asking a question in ##c++ makes you like #scheme even more ;) 07:58:47 ;) 08:07:42 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B0570B0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 08:09:03 it's odd. #scheme, #lisp, and #haskell all have far more friendly IRC communities that a lot of more mainstream languages. 08:10:14 -!- synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has quit [] 08:10:58 underspecified_ [n=eric@clair18.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 08:10:58 -!- underspecified [n=eric@clair18.naist.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:13:00 i know! 08:14:33 anyway, which one of you geni are around to figure out how the heck im supposed to modularize this shite 08:14:57 what scheme? what module system? what project? 08:15:22 r5 dr scheme and i'm supposed to make a differentiator 08:16:08 schmalbe [n=bernhard@p549A043B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 08:16:10 and the problem is..? 08:16:28 anyway, the issue i'm supposed to instead of a huge cond statment i'm supposed to make a list of lists and figure out which differentiate function from that 08:17:05 lisppaste: url 08:17:05 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste. 08:17:47 NaNO2x pasted "differentiate" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68552 08:18:41 ecraven, Adamant: maybe programming in IMPERATIVE! languages all the time makes one an asshole; someone should do a psychology piece on functional programmers 08:19:14 actually that's not a bad idea klutometis because i'm like a total asshole and i program in c 08:19:36 klutometis: I wouldn't take that too far. c.l.l is a pretty obvious counterexample 08:20:13 NaNO2x: yeah; but there's assholes and Assholes 08:20:16 Adamant: touche 08:20:20 touche 08:20:22 :P 08:20:25 jinx 08:20:33 NaNO2x: does it matter that all your rules are mathematically wrong? 08:20:35 on a cokaine plant? 08:20:53 not at all 08:20:54 :P 08:21:02 i haven't written the rules yet 08:21:13 i'm trying to write the diff function first 08:21:22 now, you're looking for the else part of DIFF, right? 08:21:22 the base cases should be correct 08:21:27 yeah 08:21:34 and it has to use diff-dispach 08:21:36 NaNO2x: do you know about alists yet? 08:21:40 dispatch* 08:21:46 alists? 08:21:59 associative lists, you'll use them, even if you don't know the word ;) 08:22:12 :P 08:22:14 kay 08:22:20 if you have the expression (* 5 x), how would you go about finding the correct function? 08:22:25 i think we are supposed to use map somewhere in here 08:22:25 personally 08:22:32 nevermind; you should be able to dispatch on car if you're using reverse polish 08:22:41 klutometis: exactly ;) 08:22:43 reverse polish 08:22:45 wtf mate? 08:22:58 writing the operator before the operands is named reverse polish 08:23:03 sounds like a bad sexual position 08:23:13 ah 08:23:15 as opposed to writing the operator after the operands (like "1 5 +" in forth) 08:23:18 i think of it as prefex 08:23:25 yes, same thing 08:23:26 that would be postfix 08:23:34 or however the two are spelled 08:23:35 exactly; straight polish ;) 08:23:36 but yeah 08:23:39 :P 08:23:51 where the heck do the polish come in!! 08:24:18 good question; Jan Lukasiewicz, apparently 08:24:24 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_notation 08:24:26 -!- mr_ank [n=ank@220-244-42-72.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:24:32 anyway 08:27:14 yah 08:27:18 ja 08:27:37 brb 08:27:38 Deformati [n=joe@c-68-62-76-160.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 08:31:13 k 08:31:54 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 08:32:39 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 08:34:19 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B0570B0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 08:35:02 -!- saccade__ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 08:39:35 -!- rmrfchik [n=paul@relay2.jet.msk.su] has quit ["falling back to 3.5.x"] 08:40:11 -!- foof [n=user@naist-wavenet126-037.naist.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:47:31 NaNO2x: anyway, take the car of your expression; and compare it against diff-dispatch with these: http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-1/srfi-1.html#AssociationLists 08:48:13 hmm 08:48:15 fun 08:48:15 you should be able to figure out how to apply the arguments to the looked-up func 08:48:25 is there a way to do that without alist? 08:48:36 you are using an alist 08:48:43 that's diff-dispatch 08:48:48 even if you haven't named it yet 08:48:57 well yeah 08:48:59 but i mean 08:49:07 using the assq func 08:49:09 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 08:49:23 assq applies to alists such as diff-dispatch 08:49:42 is that the only way then? 08:49:53 no; but what else did you have in mind? 08:49:58 no clue 08:50:04 i just dunno bout using that 08:50:10 i mean i have to use diff-dispatch 08:50:21 because they want it so i can update functions by just adding them in there 08:50:34 exactly; using assq will let you do that 08:50:36 don't see it? 08:50:47 no i do 08:50:52 i'm just asking if there is another way 08:51:15 i'm trying to figure out why you're resisting that way 08:51:19 that might give me a clue 08:51:35 no reason, just haven't actually heard of the command and i like to not say i looked it up 08:51:40 even though it's legal for me to use 08:51:53 really? bizarre class, dude, if you can't learn on your own ;) 08:52:00 ;) 08:52:10 i just like to go with the flow 08:52:18 you don't have to use assq, you can write your own 08:52:27 ecraven: good point 08:52:43 ecraven, well what's it do on the backend then 08:53:04 look for a cons where the car is the symbol you are looking for 08:53:12 NaNO2x: familiar with dictionaries or hash tables? 08:53:36 hash tables more than dictionaries 08:53:39 but i know about both 08:53:51 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [No route to host] 08:54:00 that's the basic idea: give it a key, and get back a key + value 08:54:22 aye 08:54:35 (semantic-eq? 'hash-table 'dictionary) => #t 08:54:41 heh 08:57:54 kay, well lets see bout this 09:18:25 -!- cubix [n=cubix@bas21-toronto12-1279686855.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 09:24:26 -!- sm [n=sm@pool-71-107-248-161.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 09:40:20 jao [n=user@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 09:40:35 -!- schmalbe [n=bernhard@p549A043B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:43:46 Debolaz [n=debolaz@195.159.114.206] has joined #scheme 09:43:56 rmrfchik [n=paul@relay2.jet.msk.su] has joined #scheme 09:54:51 -!- tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-31-34.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:10:10 foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 10:12:51 hm.. just thinking about configuring my subversion server so noone can check in c++ code that isn't properly documented ;) 10:13:47 How do you determine "proper" documentation? 10:13:57 no doxygen warnings ;) 10:15:03 ejs_ [n=eugen@80.91.178.218] has joined #scheme 10:16:51 i've been documenting our project (3 people's work over 2 years, about 20k lines of c++ code, lots of templates), there was not a single line of documentation... no fun 10:19:48 Are you serious? Not a single line? 10:21:15 well, about 15 lines spread all over with "TODO" or "this should never be called", but no class documentation, no method documentation, only // single lines 10:21:41 That sounds like hell. 10:21:54 it is ;) 10:22:11 but i'm almost done, only two more classes (template containers with iterators, lots of small functions :( ) 10:22:23 also documenting code that you never wrote or used is not the best idea ;) i have no idea what most of the methods do 10:23:35 Insane. 10:29:46 How are docs done in scheme? 10:31:19 keyofnight: i often have that same question; have yet to find a doxygen equivalent 10:31:52 documentation strings ;) 10:32:40 there's SchemeDoc and Scheme Elucidator, i guess: 10:32:41 www.cs.aau.dk/~normark/laml/papers/documentation-tools.pdf 10:32:48 anyone ever used them? 10:33:51 These seem neet. 10:49:14 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:13:40 You know.. this might be one of the only channels where there has been consistent humility everytime I've come in? 11:14:59 There's never a geek trying to push their opinions on me, or engage in some sort of holy war with me. hahah 11:15:15 Maybe it's luck, or maybe #scheme is just awesome. (: 11:15:19 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.104] has quit ["b"] 11:15:21 So... thanks #scheme. 11:15:30 and g'nite. 11:15:31 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.104] has joined #scheme 11:16:17 keyofnight: happens sometimes, but very seldom, no Schemevangelists here 11:16:31 keyofnight: #haskell is just as nice :) 11:16:50 all friendly functional folk 11:17:30 kuribas [i=kristof@d54C43095.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 11:19:02 keyofnight: bizarre thing is, we were just having a conversation about the civility of functional vs. imperative channels 11:20:08 functional versus dysfunctional 11:20:40 imperative ~= command, so it's not surprising to me ;-) 11:42:56 -!- foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:42:56 -!- aquanaut [n=user@pool-71-191-49-201.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:42:56 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:42:56 -!- 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[Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:38:47 sarahbot? why have you forsaken me?! 13:38:56 -!- rmrfchik [n=paul@relay2.jet.msk.su] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:39:56 rmrfchik [n=paul@relay2.jet.msk.su] has joined #scheme 13:43:03 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:43:12 -!- hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD059133117089.ppp.dion.ne.jp] has quit ["|_ e /\ \/ i |/| G"] 13:44:46 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:48:22 albacker [i=5c84aa21@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-7972096105c385a5] has joined #scheme 13:51:43 hello everyone . i have a scheme question.. or better a recursion question. ive built a function called goblet that designs a goblet.. which is a trepes with base=H height=H and small base=H/2. I use a function fill triangle which designs a triangle of coordinates x1 y1 x2 y2 x3 y3 where x1..y3 are the coordinates of the three angles of the triangle. so with this function defined here i can design ONE goblet. (trapes) htt 13:53:22 I want to create a function that creates a pyramide of goblets (in french goblet is glass.. like plastic glass). So for doing this ill need recrsion.. This time ill have more parameters for the function. but the number of parameteres is specified. ill have x y the coordinates of the BOTOM-LEFT angle of the pyramide. h the height of ONE goblet. e the distance betwen the two goblets near each other.. and N the number of FLO 13:54:35 I go recursive thinking.. and i se that n goes to n-1 for every goblet in each line.. (in first line there are N goblets.. second line N-1 goblets.. til we arrive to the top theres one glass only).. si if n goes to N=0 for the first line.. in the second line i lost the starting value of N. 13:56:09 how do i do that.. so that i dont ADD another argument to the function. and i dont create another helping function. (i could create a design-line function that creates the LINES one by one. and go design line (n, n-1..1) ) 13:56:37 anyone 14:04:19 -!- aardvarq [i=tgAardva@student3113.student.nau.edu] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:05:32 GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-235-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:06:26 annodomini [n=lambda@130.189.179.215] has joined #scheme 14:06:46 wastrel [n=wastrel@nylug/member/wastrel] has joined #scheme 14:08:13 jlongster [n=user@75.148.111.133] has joined #scheme 14:13:07 |jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 14:15:02 hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD125054017176.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 14:16:17 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-138-236.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:16:28 hemulen [n=hemulen@12-187-217-2.att-inc.com] has joined #scheme 14:16:36 -!- hemulen [n=hemulen@12-187-217-2.att-inc.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:18:09 hemulen [n=hemulen@12-187-217-2.att-inc.com] has joined #scheme 14:20:04 What's a trepes? 14:20:16 kuribas: trapesoid °° 14:20:48 A trapesium? 14:21:08 maybe 14:21:27 its like a square.. but the lower base is larger.. so its not a square 14:21:39 probably a trapesium 14:21:42 Yes 14:22:54 You want to build a pyramid with a trapezium as base? 14:23:01 the pastebin function designs one trapsium with coordinates x y of the left bottom corner.. and H height .. which is also the width of the base.. and the smaller base is h/2. 14:23:22 kuribas: no.. lots of trapesiums will be a pyramide.. imagine a pyramide of glasses. 14:23:59 Oh, but a trapezium is a 2d figure, and a pyramide 3d 14:24:24 2D pyramide. 14:25:16 You mean a triangle? 14:25:23 Pyramids are 3d. 14:25:39 a ''triangle'' 14:26:18 at the end ill have 14:26:19 O O O O O O 14:26:22 fuck.. 14:26:44 And your function should draw it? Or give the coordinates? 14:26:57 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-138-236.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 14:26:57 http://pastebin.com/m76fe36c1 14:27:05 Lemon [n=karl@CMU-301252.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 14:27:59 -!- OceanSpray [n=karl@LEMON.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:28:08 kuribas: i have a function that draws ONE trapesium with x y h given. now i should do another function that draws this "triangle" made of trapesiums. Where in the base there are N trapesiums designed with the first function (N is also the number of the FLOORS). (the second floor has N-1 trapesiums).. etc 14:28:44 i can write it.. im lost in recursion now. the problem is not the coordinates. 14:29:29 if you see at the "triangle" made of O's that i pasted above. can you give me an help on how could i wwrite that in scheme with only ONE argument ?? N where N is number of floors? 14:30:32 what i did was a function given N .. designed the first floor of N trapesiums.. (and in each call N was N-1.. til the end where N=0).. but to design the upper floor. Ill have to have the first N and recall the function with N-1 14:30:41 you'd need to know the width of the entire drawing 14:30:43 so its a recursion inside another recursion.. or smth like this -_- 14:30:44 or the maximum value for n 14:30:56 so probably two parameters, or a closure that captures the maximum value 14:31:05 xwl [n=user@123.112.115.58] has joined #scheme 14:31:10 ecraven: why do i need that? 14:31:20 otherwise you don't know how far to "indent" 14:31:22 i think ;) 14:31:51 or you have to draw starting from maximul floor 14:31:56 maximum 14:32:04 no i know how far to indent.. because theres e (the space between two trapesiums) given. and yeah the program will not generate errors*.. 14:32:05 you still need to know the width in the lower rows 14:32:44 one second ill write smth and give it to youguys 14:33:09 lisppaste: url? 14:33:10 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste. 14:33:19 albacker: Paste something here. 14:33:43 ok 14:37:11 albacker pasted "codee" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68562 14:37:56 i didnt check what i wrote.. sorry .. it should give you guys the idea of my problem now.. 14:38:19 that creates ONE line.. the bottom LINE. but at the end N is 0 and i cant N-1 for the line above (floor above) 14:39:01 you need to keep the value of n for the next line 14:39:24 ecraven: i know. thats my problem. and i cant add another variable 14:39:41 albacker: Why? It's a homework question? 14:40:05 kuribas: its an exercise i got from a book. 14:40:11 it says write this function.. 14:40:22 and gives me the parametres too 14:40:48 i think i can do it with another variable.. but isnt that more challenging like this. and theres probably a way to do it.. 14:41:14 albacker: I would draw the base, and then recurse. 14:41:37 what if i do (overlay TRAPESIUM_NOW (recursive next trapesium in this line) (recursive first trapesium in the line above and n-1)) 14:43:31 you guys get the idea? this should work.. (what i wrote above) 14:46:35 xwl` [n=user@221.221.150.107] has joined #scheme 14:48:44 that should work.. 14:48:50 thanks for the help though 14:48:59 aaco [n=aaco@unaffiliated/aaco] has joined #scheme 14:50:04 aiur [n=Jan@218.109.68.232] has joined #scheme 14:51:21 sm [n=sm@pool-71-104-90-184.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 14:51:21 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 14:51:56 Ok, good luck. 14:52:42 xwl`` [n=user@221.221.161.64] has joined #scheme 14:57:21 -!- aiur [n=Jan@218.109.68.232] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:57:45 aiur [n=Jan@218.109.70.54] has joined #scheme 15:02:38 -!- xhanjian [n=Jan@218.109.70.212] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:03:12 bweaver [n=bweaver@75.148.111.133] has joined #scheme 15:04:25 hellues [n=hellues@d-stu.ibun.edu.tr] has joined #scheme 15:04:27 hey 15:04:40 someone there i wonna ask a question :D 15:05:38 ask away 15:05:41 we dont wonna here it! 15:06:02 -!- xwl [n=user@123.112.115.58] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:06:20 jan2 [n=Jan@218.109.64.138] has joined #scheme 15:08:15 waiting 58 seconds must have been too much... 15:11:19 -!- xwl` [n=user@221.221.150.107] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:16:05 rdd` [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 15:19:37 -!- aiur [n=Jan@218.109.70.54] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:19:52 -!- Lemon [n=karl@CMU-301252.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:20:57 -!- synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:24:13 echo-are` [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-dbdf7d34c653f2d8] has joined #scheme 15:30:24 -!- echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-32eddb3ed9e988a8] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:33:31 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.104] has quit ["bbl"] 15:39:29 allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #scheme 15:45:21 saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-72-23.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 15:48:24 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 15:49:53 -!- xwl`` [n=user@221.221.161.64] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:49:57 replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 15:50:17 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-72-23.dyn.mit.edu] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:52:28 lisppaste, url 15:52:28 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste. 15:54:17 hellues pasted "reverse kinds" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68567 15:54:36 hey i wrote this function that is from sicp 15:54:39 saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-72-23.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 15:54:48 i took and unwish result 15:55:01 how can i fix it ? can you give an idead ? i am beginner 15:57:45 unwish? i'm guessing you want '(1 2 3) -> '(3 2 1) ... 15:57:46 -!- offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit ["reboot"] 15:59:16 hellues: ? 16:01:18 *sladegen* facepalms. 16:02:50 no 16:03:02 i write a reverse function 16:03:09 just like foldr 16:03:18 this is sicp exercise 16:03:34 i says reverse-right and rever-left like foldr and foldl 16:04:07 reverse-left '(1 2 3)---> 3 2 1 rever-right '(1 2 3) ---> 1 2 3 16:05:05 yes, and so what's the problem exactly? am i supposed to find text of that excersise on my own? 16:05:42 just a second 16:07:37 hellues pasted "reverse kinds" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68569 16:07:39 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:08:07 it is the problem 16:10:08 ok, and what's your problem? "can't do it" is not an answer... 16:13:08 hellues pasted "reverse kinds" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68570 16:13:13 offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 16:13:18 sladegen, 16:13:24 actually my prooblem is result 16:13:53 i said (upper2 '(1 2 3 4 5)) ---> (((((() . 1) . 2) . 3) . 4) . 5) 16:14:03 i guess this must be ( 1 2 3 4 5) 16:14:19 i dont understand why it is (((((() . 1) . 2) . 3) . 4) . 5) 16:15:33 I bet you're calling (cons SOME-LIST SOME-NUMBER) 16:15:45 when you instead should reverse the arguments: (cons SOME-NUMBER SOME-LIST) 16:15:53 and then call "reverse" on the result once you've built it up 16:15:57 that's the Scheme Way 16:16:38 I thought I had lost one of my kitties, but I found her! 16:16:51 -!- jao [n=user@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:16:52 just can't get to her...up a tree with a dog at the bottom heh..waiting for neighbor to come home to chain the dog 16:17:02 hellues: well, first of all you are not using fold-foo ... i'm assuming your upper-ver2 is supposed to be reverse from 2.39... 16:18:48 An hour of my life summed up in 2 seconds :) 16:19:02 mbishop: pity you're so old and decrepit, or else you could just climb the tree 16:19:14 *offby1* throws his dentures at mbishop, simply out of habit 16:19:51 *mbishop* takes offby1's dentures and uses them to knock the cat down 16:20:05 gonna have to get a ladder or something 16:20:09 she's way up there :/ 16:20:24 never had a cat up a tree myself, oddly 16:20:31 after a century of owning cats 16:20:38 she will jump 16:20:55 Well, once I get down there, yes she might jump 16:21:01 but not right now, with the dog watching heh 16:21:03 is she an outdoor cat normally? 16:21:06 yes 16:21:09 whip up some smelly meat... 16:21:21 sladegen: does offby1 count? 16:21:33 he is too virtual 16:21:35 I'm a vegetable 16:21:59 sladegen, 16:22:05 yes this is 2.39 16:22:15 I was checking the highway earlier 16:22:21 hoping I didn't see a white bump :( 16:22:33 why i take this result i dont understand what is my mistake (cons n (car l)) is this my mistake 16:22:54 -!- albacker [i=5c84aa21@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-7972096105c385a5] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 16:24:17 hellues pasted "reverse kinds" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68571 16:24:36 i found a solution of 2.39 16:24:46 but the result i same look here 16:25:10 mbishop: I've lost cats before and am glad you've found yours 16:25:36 cat is cute evil .D 16:26:19 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-72-23.dyn.mit.edu] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:26:28 *mbishop* nods 16:26:42 I'll be happier when she's not in that tree, but at least she isn't dead 16:27:00 I just paid $400 (for both) to get fixed, so I would have been angry heh 16:28:02 wow 16:28:35 stupid cat 16:28:35 ;/ 16:28:52 last night was a full moon, probably saw something and chased it over there 16:31:38 global crisis for car 16:31:40 global crisis for cat 16:32:25 Indeed, she invaded foreign soil 16:32:38 and Prime Minister Spot wasn't very happy 16:33:04 And now he is maintaining a seige to try and wait out the foreign invaders 16:35:43 -!- hellues [n=hellues@d-stu.ibun.edu.tr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:35:49 it's a battle to the boredom -- whichever animal gets bored first loses. 16:37:44 -!- aaco [n=aaco@unaffiliated/aaco] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:38:51 aaco [n=aaco@unaffiliated/aaco] has joined #scheme 16:41:36 Little does PM Spot know that the invader has powerful friends with blood relations with PM Spot's owner, who will sabatage his seige 16:43:20 saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-72-23.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 16:44:01 bah (define (reverseL seq) (fold-left (lambda (x y) (cons y x)) '() seq)) 16:44:15 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-72-23.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 16:44:18 just couldn't wait... 16:54:38 lol 16:57:22 geckosenator [n=sean@c-24-8-193-190.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:58:38 -!- Deformative [n=joe@c-68-62-76-160.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 16:58:59 la la la 16:59:00 hey sladegen 17:04:57 heyho... CL macros are ghey. or i'm just stupid ;-} for now! bwoohaha! 17:24:59 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-12-31.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 17:25:35 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-40-107.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 17:28:01 melito [n=melito@70.99.250.82] has joined #scheme 17:29:04 -!- tizoc_ is now known as tizoc 17:30:23 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 17:32:49 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-40-67.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 17:33:25 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-12-31.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 17:33:29 -!- tizoc_ is now known as tizoc 17:34:21 -!- allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:37:40 -!- xz [n=ramana@c-98-228-42-177.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:43:48 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-247-160-133.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 17:46:47 MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has joined #scheme 17:51:32 melito_ [n=melito@70.99.250.82] has joined #scheme 17:52:10 sladegen: CL macros aren't hard. :) 17:52:18 sladegen: Not exceedingly so, anyway. 17:54:32 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 17:55:15 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 17:55:49 sodio [n=sodio@128.143.247.151] has joined #scheme 17:59:02 -!- aaco [n=aaco@unaffiliated/aaco] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:03:27 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 18:04:05 Hmm 18:04:18 well kitty decided even with the dog picked up she doesn't want to come down 18:04:30 Have you tried tuna juice? 18:04:34 anyone know a good way to get a cat out of a tree? (tried food, tried scaring her with a hose pipe) 18:04:36 well 18:04:46 leave her, she'll jump 18:04:54 how high is the tree? 18:04:58 leppie: problem is, we can't leave her forever 18:05:06 leppie: she's about 20ft up, I think 18:05:13 hmmm 18:05:14 probably safe enough for her to jump on her own 18:05:25 but she could possibly get down by climbing, really 18:05:28 she's just too scared 18:05:36 thats' like 6 meters, bleh, i have fallen from 8 meters, and lived 18:05:51 *mbishop* gives leppie a cat treat 18:05:56 It may not be possible to do so at this point, since you've already indicated that you're paying attention to her, but you could try finding a sudden fascination with something on the ground -- and absolutely ignoring her. 18:05:58 moo! :) 18:06:03 cats can climb down trees 18:06:28 when everything quiets down, she will make her way down i think 18:06:36 yeah, she was probably too scared, since the dog was loose...but now the dog is picked up, so hopefully just leaving her she will find a way down 18:06:58 If she's like pretty much any other cat on the planet, she will abhor and despise you for finding something that is more fascinating than her, and she will have no option but to check it out herself. 18:07:03 pay attention to another small fur bearing mammal 18:07:09 my cat just jumped of our roof the other day 18:07:16 -!- melito [n=melito@70.99.250.82] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:07:23 my GF called him, and he just jumped 18:07:44 Some negotiator your GC is! 18:07:47 ...GF. 18:07:59 I ductaped a shovel handle to a big fishing net 18:08:05 but it was no where near long enough 18:08:06 well he should learn not to be so retarded :p 18:08:30 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 18:08:34 when he wants to open a door, he head buts it 18:12:59 -!- Piranha__ [i=jabber-i@number-41.thoughtcrime.us] has left #scheme 18:13:05 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1B3D.versanet.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:13:59 -!- jan2 [n=Jan@218.109.64.138] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 18:14:09 call fire department! 18:14:31 *sladegen* duhs. 18:14:38 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 18:15:10 and get a bill later? 18:15:11 akeep [n=akeep@140-182-144-190.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has joined #scheme 18:15:37 if they bother to help at all 18:17:39 xerox [n=xerox@unaffiliated/xerox] has joined #scheme 18:19:46 they should have their ladders taken away if they refuse to help. 18:20:46 Poeir_ [n=Poeir@c-98-222-133-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:25:21 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 18:25:56 and their pole 18:26:01 -!- kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:26:06 -!- Poeir [n=Poeir@c-98-222-133-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:26:20 hey, don't diss Poles ;-p 18:26:41 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 18:32:34 -!- geckosenator [n=sean@c-24-8-193-190.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 18:36:09 bweaver_ [n=bweaver@75.148.111.133] has joined #scheme 18:37:28 -!- bweaver [n=bweaver@75.148.111.133] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:39:08 tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has joined #scheme 18:39:50 -!- melito_ [n=melito@70.99.250.82] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:40:21 melito [n=melito@70.99.250.82] has joined #scheme 18:41:50 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B054C4C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 18:44:44 benny` [n=benny@i577A128C.versanet.de] has joined #scheme 18:45:37 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 18:46:22 ivarref [n=ivarref@padme.ifi.uio.no] has joined #scheme 18:49:20 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 18:51:13 -!- benny` is now known as benny 18:54:56 OceanSpray [n=karl@CMU-301252.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 18:56:35 well cats about halfway down now, could probably reach her with the ladder 18:56:38 gonna give her a few though 19:02:02 -!- Jarvellis is now known as JHVH 19:03:02 allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #scheme 19:19:20 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-227-32.dsl.look.ca] has joined #scheme 19:23:21 OK, finally 19:23:25 I got her down 19:23:45 got up on the ladder and grabbed her nape, and then right before she could turn around and try to claw into my arm I just had to drop her about 10 feet heh 19:23:50 she's fine though 19:23:59 :] 19:24:34 gigabytes [n=gigabyte@host223-238-dynamic.25-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 19:24:59 *mbishop* wishes he could take a fall like that 19:25:44 10 feet = 3m ? 19:25:46 you just need practie 19:25:50 uh, I guess? 19:25:53 *practice 19:26:01 I jumped 3.5 meters.. 19:26:07 10 feet = 3.04800 meters 19:26:56 3.05 meters down to the ground is really not a hard fall (and landing) to have without consequences. 19:27:05 especially for cats heh 19:27:19 For people. 19:27:44 Even with 3.5 meters the top problem (when training) is to force yourself to jump. 19:27:46 well that depends, I mean offby1 breaks his hip every time he walks down the stairs! 19:27:53 *mbishop* puts up the denture shields 19:28:32 Bad luck (and maybe health problems being part of it) is another question.. 19:31:42 what speed would you have after a 3 meter fall? 19:33:15 something like 29 m/s? 19:33:33 -!- allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:33:51 Wrong 19:33:54 qebab: hmm wouldn't that give 104 km/hours? 19:34:04 You have 10 m/s after 1 second and 5 meters 19:34:05 superman, perhaps 19:34:18 Err. Yeah, wrong. Very much so. :) 19:34:35 My mind swapped seconds for meters at some point. :) 19:35:18 8 m/s seem a good estimate 19:36:14 yeah 19:36:16 I attain 7 m/s on horizontal 100 meter run.. 19:36:23 I'm getting 7.68 m/s 19:37:04 v = sqrt(2as) = sqrt(2*9.81*3) yeah? 19:37:14 Yes 19:38:12 now put it in the form of a scheme expression! 19:38:33 (sqrt (* 2 9.805 3.05)) 19:38:46 :) 19:38:52 (let ((g 9.81) (s 3)) (sqrt (* 2 g s))) :) 19:38:53 now no one can say we weren't on topic 19:38:55 7.73 19:39:22 rudybot: eval (let ((g 9.81) (s 3)) (sqrt (* 2 g s))) :) 19:39:23 qebab: error: eval:1:41: read: unexpected `)' 19:39:28 oh right, smiley eh 19:39:42 I should go to bed 19:39:47 *qebab* takes his own advice 19:40:10 hahah 19:40:35 minion: advice for qebab 19:40:35 qebab: #11909: Bad programmer! No cookie! 19:41:58 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #scheme 19:45:52 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 20:07:47 -!- cky [n=cky@202-74-212-35.ue.woosh.co.nz] has quit ["Rebooting :-)"] 20:10:39 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:19:31 -!- sodio [n=sodio@128.143.247.151] has quit [] 20:35:58 Lemon [n=karl@LEMON.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 20:37:44 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:39:34 jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless156.wireless.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 20:39:46 -!- replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:41:14 sodio [n=sodio@netblock-63-66-64-29.myitdepartment.net] has joined #scheme 20:47:31 houston, the cat has landed. 20:47:40 buttered side up? 20:48:08 ask gnomon. 20:48:24 oops, mbishop. 20:48:41 -!- OceanSpray [n=karl@CMU-301252.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:49:13 I think gnomon would have eaten it, no matter what side landed up 20:50:13 gnomon eats cats? 20:50:17 that's kind of scary 20:50:35 those octohanded canucks. 20:51:31 Canuckistanian extremists with their socialized health care and barbaric feline cuisine! 20:52:42 -!- gigabytes [n=gigabyte@host223-238-dynamic.25-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [] 20:54:45 Instant message quote of the week: "Do you even know what Semanticity means?" 20:55:16 heh 20:56:56 sementicity is all over internet. 20:57:48 -!- xerox [n=xerox@unaffiliated/xerox] has quit ["Quit"] 21:00:12 *mbishop* hands the internet a tissue 21:01:42 *keyofnight* sighs. 21:01:48 cubix [n=cubix@bas21-toronto12-1279686855.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #scheme 21:05:30 -!- ventonegro [n=user@136.166.1.3] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:10:00 allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #scheme 21:15:52 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:28:45 -!- CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-75-68-42-94.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:30:14 annodomini [n=lambda@130.189.179.215] has joined #scheme 21:32:25 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [] 21:41:19 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-75-68-42-94.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:51:10 -!- akeep [n=akeep@140-182-144-190.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has left #scheme 21:57:18 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 21:57:30 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-1-126.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 22:03:18 -!- allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:05:29 -!- pfo_ [n=pfo@chello084114049188.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 22:07:14 allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #scheme 22:17:46 -!- bweaver_ [n=bweaver@75.148.111.133] has quit [] 22:25:31 -!- allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:25:41 allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #scheme 22:29:06 -!- kuribas [i=kristof@d54C43095.access.telenet.be] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:29:31 -!- GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-235-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has left #scheme 22:37:03 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:40:28 Adamant_ [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:41:32 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [No route to host] 22:41:58 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B054C4C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:42:16 -!- sodio [n=sodio@netblock-63-66-64-29.myitdepartment.net] has quit [] 22:42:23 jao [n=user@129.Red-83-42-110.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 22:44:16 -!- Adamant_ [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 22:46:00 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:49:11 sodio [n=sodio@netblock-63-66-64-29.myitdepartment.net] has joined #scheme 22:55:31 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 23:00:40 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:02:51 -!- allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:03:01 allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #scheme 23:08:36 -!- hemulen [n=hemulen@12-187-217-2.att-inc.com] has quit [] 23:12:24 aoeuid [n=aoeuid@DHCP-60-220.ST.HMC.Edu] has joined #scheme 23:12:48 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:14:05 I'm trying to use build-vector with a proc that's supposed to not add a new element to the vector for certain n 23:14:08 how can I do that? 23:14:20 if I tell the proc to return null, it just puts a () into the vector 23:15:01 -!- kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:15:54 Why don't you just make a list, and then convert the list into a vector? 23:16:43 lemme try 23:17:11 that puts in ()s too 23:17:55 Yes, but it is simpler to construct a list of variable length than to construct a vector of variable length. 23:18:44 and how do I do that? 23:18:59 Use CONS and a recursive procedure... 23:19:26 anything less tedious? 23:19:31 hm, lets see... 23:19:50 Not until you can write it with CONS and a recursive procedure. 23:19:53 the key word is recursive... 23:20:25 at least I can write it with quasiquotes instead of cons 23:20:34 That's silly. 23:20:35 even though we weren't taught that in class 23:20:39 those poor other folks 23:20:59 cons stuff is just really hard to read for me 23:21:16 And `(,foo . ,(bar baz quux)) is easier than (cons foo (bar baz quux))? 23:21:37 what's the dot doing there? 23:21:45 I don't like having dots in places at all 23:22:51 The alternative is to have at-signs rather than dots, but you should understand the dot before the at-sign! 23:23:12 it doesn't bother me as long as it works 23:23:23 and I was shown the ,@ before the dots 23:23:37 (maybe since it was a different dialect) 23:25:07 Do you know what a list is? 23:25:21 yes, a bunch of conses with a null at the end 23:27:22 -!- hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD125054017176.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit ["|_ e /\ \/ i |/| G"] 23:28:34 -!- jlongster [n=user@75.148.111.133] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:31:49 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-95-99.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:32:18 ah, nice, I just did my original thing with build-list and then removed out the nulls 23:32:38 since I know nulls will never be in there from anywhere else 23:34:59 akeep [n=akeep@98.223.210.136] has joined #scheme 23:38:15 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 23:40:33 -!- allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:40:57 allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #scheme 23:41:42 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:49:56 -!- allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:50:18 allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #scheme 23:50:51 la la la 23:51:22 -!- raikov [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:58:13 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [No route to host] 23:59:16 minion: meat 23:59:16 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``meat''.