00:01:03 jonrafkind [n=jon@c-67-186-250-110.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:05:58 tag team! 00:10:46 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has joined #scheme 00:30:11 -!- jao [n=user@129.Red-83-42-110.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:41:10 grettke [n=grettke@CPE-65-31-132-59.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 00:46:00 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 00:46:34 hemulen [n=hemulen@12-187-217-2.att-inc.com] has joined #scheme 00:49:01 -!- grettke [n=grettke@CPE-65-31-132-59.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [] 00:54:16 -!- mqt [i=tran@monaco.nirv.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:55:59 mqt [i=tran@monaco.nirv.net] has joined #scheme 01:05:31 GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-235-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:05:49 -!- GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-235-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has left #scheme 01:13:50 -!- OceanSpray [n=karl@LEMON.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:24:11 jon__ [n=jon@wireless6.wireless.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 01:26:06 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@c-67-186-250-110.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:26:14 -!- jon__ is now known as jonrafkind 01:28:49 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-95-99.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:31:25 valiza2 [n=haroldo@r190-134-159-214.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 01:32:50 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has quit ["Where is the glory in complying with demands?"] 01:32:51 -!- cubix [n=cubix@CPE0013100506c1-CM001692411b42.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:42:17 cubix [n=cubix@CPE0013100506c1-CM001692411b42.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 01:47:04 OceanSpray [n=karl@LEMON.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 01:48:24 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 01:48:40 -!- valiza1 [n=haroldo@r190-134-186-161.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:48:57 alexbobp [n=liz@66.112.249.6] has joined #scheme 01:55:43 vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has joined #scheme 01:56:37 -!- hemulen [n=hemulen@12-187-217-2.att-inc.com] has quit ["He rode off into the sunset. . ."] 02:00:04 -!- aardvarc is now known as aardvarq 02:02:05 -!- vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has quit ["The incensed priests...continued to raise their voices, vituperating each other in bad Latin"] 02:11:05 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:12:50 -!- sjamaan [n=sjamaan@frohike-old.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:13:01 sjamaan [n=sjamaan@frohike-old.xs4all.nl] has joined #scheme 02:19:30 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-22-59.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 02:20:52 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-36-233.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 02:20:54 -!- tizoc_ is now known as tizoc 02:40:06 -!- CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-75-68-42-94.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:43:25 Do any of you recall what function has a graph that sort of has a shape like a square cloth where it was lifted by opposite corners and the other corners are let down? 02:43:41 kryptos23___ [n=kryptos@59.92.60.7] has joined #scheme 02:43:49 catenary? 02:43:50 Pommel horse graph, I think it was called. 02:44:01 saddle? 02:44:07 offby1, yeah. 02:44:12 -!- kryptos23___ is now known as kryptos23 02:44:42 Basically, I need a function, taking two inputs, and returning a high value when they are both low, and a high value when they are both high, with a middle value when they are in the middle, and low values when they are opposite. 02:44:51 By opposite mean, one high, one low. 02:45:10 I have totally forgotten what function that is. 02:47:02 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:52:40 A saddle curve has negative curvature. That's all I know about it. 02:55:26 Are you looking for something along the lines of f(x, y) = x^2 - y^2, arcfide? 02:56:22 arcfide: is it in http://en.Wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Images_of_surfaces ? (NSFW!!) 02:56:24 Lemon [n=karl@CMU-301252.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 02:58:00 Riastradh, offby1: Yep, that is it! Bah, I should have remembered that. 02:58:09 what's it called? 02:58:15 Riastradh: good mind-reading work, there, son. 02:58:50 Hyperbolic Parabaloid. 02:59:12 A saddle-point is a general term for a point that is neither a local minimum nor a local maximum of a real-valued function. 02:59:22 Right. 02:59:30 -!- kryptos23__ [n=kryptos@59.92.60.7] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:59:39 that would describe most points 02:59:43 I think there's more to it than that 02:59:43 The function f(x, y) = x^2 - y^2 is the canonical example of a pictorially representable saddle-point. 02:59:56 I thought it was a minimum in one direction but a maximum in some other direction 03:00:35 I thought the slope of a saddle point also had to be zero, didn't it? 03:00:45 Well, I am not sure if slope is the right term. 03:00:53 Sorry, a general term for a stationary point, i.e. a point where the derivative is zero. 03:01:03 ...that is not a local minimum or a local maximum. 03:01:04 curvature, maybe 03:01:14 like x = 0 in y = x^3? 03:02:00 -!- OceanSpray [n=karl@LEMON.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:02:14 That's an example, too, although less suggestive of saddles. 03:03:36 offby1: wtf is NSFW about that 03:03:48 synx: I thought that animated thing in the lower-right was ... ify 03:03:50 iffy 03:04:10 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [No route to host] 03:05:01 synx, two exclamation marks clearly meant sarcasm. Obviously. 03:05:22 Oh, obviously. 03:05:43 Obviously. 03:06:56 vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has joined #scheme 03:10:38 echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-05ae19258f7295e9] has joined #scheme 03:30:47 xhanjian [n=Jan@218.109.76.46] has joined #scheme 03:43:58 Gee, the US national debt clock just overflowed and required a manual hack to display the figure in excess of ten trillion. Fortunately there's a bigger one planned that will represent debts up to one quadrillion dollars, so we can rest assured that the overflow bug will be fixed next year. 03:45:15 That's the why-too-horrible bug. 03:46:36 Quadrillion here, quadrillion there: soon you're talking about real money 03:47:10 hah did they just put a big 1 up in front of it? 03:47:50 The US national debt clock... overflowed...hahaha 03:51:45 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:52:08 ah they switched the $ to a 1 03:52:41 Yes, it's an output format thing, not any memory overflow. 03:57:47 they should switch to hex 04:05:49 -!- MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:10:30 kryptos23___ [n=kryptos@59.92.60.7] has joined #scheme 04:15:12 Wait, is there an actual clock? 04:15:20 In Times Square, yes. A digital display, anyway. 04:20:10 i was thinking they stuck a big paper 1 in front of it. :] 04:20:24 No, they turned the digital $ into a 1 and stuck a big paper $ in front of it, actually. 04:21:44 That's sad on so many levels :( 04:22:09 It's so mortifying one just has to laugh. 04:26:44 tjafk2 [n=timj@e176217137.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 04:26:51 -!- tjafk1 [n=timj@e176207215.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:27:30 -!- kryptos23 [n=kryptos@59.92.60.7] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:35:53 get your wheelbarrows ready. 04:38:09 -!- vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:41:33 kryptos23____ [n=kryptos@59.92.60.7] has joined #scheme 04:42:03 -!- kryptos23____ is now known as kryptos23 04:47:50 The first Python chapter in Beautiful Code has taken a huge lead on being the lamest chapter. 04:48:50 -!- foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:53:33 foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 04:54:21 (must not type as far as the right column and trigger the Emacs segfault) 04:54:35 grettke [n=grettke@CPE-65-31-132-59.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 04:54:46 *Riastradh* blinks. 04:55:22 (I must say, by the way, that psyntax is without question the ugliest macro expander I have ever seen, aesthetically and practically.) 04:55:24 *grettke* just stares 04:55:40 Riastradh: I haven't gotten to that chapter yet. 04:56:00 Chapter 18: Python uses hash tables. 04:56:17 ... for everything, even for stupid uses like arrays. 04:56:31 what are you reading, that beautiful code book? 04:56:34 -!- kryptos23___ [n=kryptos@59.92.60.7] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:56:44 Then follows a shallow discussion of hash table implementations, 04:57:07 ... as one might excerpt from a CS 101 course, but leaving out 04:57:15 all the interesting details. 04:57:18 (Can someone explain why this book has generated so much buzz?) 04:57:19 The implementation uses actual arrays, not hash tables. ...right? ._. 04:57:44 -!- Mr_Awesome [n=eric@pool-72-69-243-9.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:58:04 Has it generated buzz? 04:58:26 I just think it's a good punching bag - these people are proclaiming 04:58:33 their code to be beautiful. 04:58:49 ... not that chapter 18 has any code. 04:59:42 foof: Any book offering more fodder for parroting by the masses always generates a lot of buzz. Nothing against the book as I haven't read it, but the point still stands. 05:00:16 Riastradh: Have you seen a beautiful macro expander? 05:00:18 OK, I'll grant that I don't actually follow any intartubular blagogasmic feeds, and thus have very little notion of what the current `buzzes' are, but, uh, well, it has come up in #scheme at least twice. 05:00:43 Riastradh: I believe both times by me :) 05:01:07 When I googled it I saw several blaggings about it! 05:01:40 I'm sure you can find several blaggings about pidgeon droppings. 05:01:59 Pidgin or pigeon? 05:02:05 Or bludgeon? 05:02:15 I like the word `bludgeon', personally. 05:02:40 grettke: I notice that Riastradh mostly said that it was the ugliest, not that any of them were not ugly. 05:03:45 my code is beautiful 05:03:49 (define (lengt l n) (if (empty? l) n (lengt (cdr l) (+ n 1)))) 05:04:15 synx: thanks 05:04:23 arcfide: ok 05:05:24 grettke, to suggest that riaxpander is at least organized to make sense would be conceited of me, but I think that it is not too conceited to claim that it is at least more sensibly and clearly structured than psyntax -- and it has no onerous burden of bootstrapping because it is not irksomely recursively implemented. 05:07:12 synx: Python has a list type, but the book mentions it's common to 05:07:17 Ristradh: ok 05:07:40 use dictionaries with numeric keys (i.e. arrays). 05:07:41 Riastradh: Could you clarify the irksomely recursively implemented part? 05:08:07 arcfide, psyntax.ss is full of SYNTAX-CASE. Hence it cannot be loaded except into a Scheme system that already has a SYNTAX-CASE implementation. 05:08:11 Possibly because the list object is awkward, and doesn't allow syntax 05:08:35 as simple as mylist[n]=x if the list doesn't already have n+1 elements. 05:08:56 foof, so why are you slogging through this waste of dead trees? 05:09:21 There was _one_ chapter with beautiful code. 05:09:38 And coming up are Dybvig's and Peyton-Jones' chapters. 05:09:51 ... and a CL chapter and an Elisp chapter. 05:10:01 Ah, Riastradh, I see what you mean; is this what you would consider ugly, or is it just another issue with it? 05:10:28 Ristradh: psyntax is "portable syntax-case", right? Portable syntax case requires that syntax-case already be present? 05:10:41 It's common in python to use dictionaries with numeric keys... if you need to have a sparse array. Otherwise most people use lists, or immutable lists even. 05:10:41 Yes, grettke. 05:10:49 arcfide, have you ever tried to read it? 05:10:54 foof, which chapter was that? 05:11:24 Riastradh: Which chapter was what? 05:11:52 There's also a direct interface into C arrays, though that is pretty rarely used. (And not resizable) 05:12:12 grettke, by contrast, riaxpander requires some basic macros such as LET, maybe DO, COND, DEFINE-RECORD-TYPE, and a few more. These are a considerably less onerous burden than SYNTAX-CASE. 05:12:12 Riastradh: no, I never bothered to do so. I have no doubt that what you say is true, but I'm just curious. I am not interested enough to really read it myself right now though. 05:13:09 grettke, so the way that psyntax is actually used is that a pre-expanded edition of the code is distributed -- which you *really* don't want to read. But that's what you get to debug. 05:13:35 Riastradh: I see, psyntax.pp hehe. Interesting. 05:13:38 The bootstrapping issue might even be OK if it meant the un-expanded 05:13:49 code were shorter and easier to read. 05:13:54 alas 05:14:31 The source code is a transliteration of some typeset mathematics describing some of the algorithm, mixed with more Scheme-oid presentation and data structures, the result of which is worse than either. 05:15:39 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 05:15:58 So there are lots of spelled-out Greek letters like `chi', but there are also rudimentary Scheme data structures. I believe the most sophisticated data structure is the vector, however. 05:17:25 There is also a great deal of redundancy in psyntax. 05:17:58 This is because its author didn't really have a clear idea of the structure of Scheme syntax, or at least the code suggests this. 05:19:41 The data structures involved are very confusing, too, because partly the hygienic mechanism was originally some abstract marking scheme, but it turned out to be useful to explicate syntactic environments anyway, but without really exposing syntactic closures (sort of). 05:20:04 sphex [n=sphex@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 05:20:21 Here's a lovely little snippet: (let ((e (chi-top e r w ctem rtem meta? top-ribcage meta-residualize! #f))) (build-sequence no-source (reverse (cons e meta-residuals)))) 05:20:59 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-75-68-42-94.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:21:21 (define-structure (frob e meta?)) ;;; frobs represent body forms 05:21:33 There are many procedures in psyntax that span pages and pages. 05:23:12 la la 05:23:16 hey Riastradh 05:23:41 dum de dum 05:23:42 Like my POSIX regexp parser! :) 05:24:59 foof: from the Beautiful Code book, i liked the chapter written with CL 05:25:22 the one on writing a function to determine if points are colinear, if i recall correctly 05:25:47 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:26:00 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 05:26:10 foof: the rest seems like a wash, and it was surprising to see examples of what other people consider 'Beautiful Code'. 05:26:40 I thought Bentley's qsort analysis was beautiful. 05:27:06 The bitcount chapter was an interesting collection of bit-twiddling 05:27:12 lore (that I already knew). 05:27:24 ahh 05:27:41 hmm, i should go back and read some o fthem 05:27:53 -!- sjamaan [n=sjamaan@frohike-old.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:28:04 sjamaan [n=sjamaan@frohike-old.xs4all.nl] has joined #scheme 05:28:05 The code-generated image filter was interesting. 05:28:09 Riastradh: i'm getting to a part of edwin where i start to see code that involves the condition system and restarts, and i don't really know what to do with it 05:28:12 foof: ahh, the one in C# 05:28:21 yeah 05:28:22 foof: i've been reading one of his recent books 05:28:31 a book on WPF by Petzold 05:30:35 kryptos23____ [n=kryptos@59.92.24.101] has joined #scheme 05:32:19 dum de dum 05:32:23 mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 05:32:32 duncanm, translate it! 05:32:45 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@99.137.201.22] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:32:49 Riastradh: what do you mean? 05:32:58 Translate the code that uses the condition system. 05:33:05 translate to what? 05:33:18 to SRFI-34, 35? 05:33:25 To Scheme48's condition system. 05:33:31 Ugh, don't waste your time with those SRFIs. 05:33:51 i didn't know s48's condition system had restarts 05:33:58 and user definable conditions 05:34:11 It doesn't have restarts. You'll have to introduce them. You can pilfer them from SLIME48. 05:34:31 Riastradh: i'll have to get it to work on scsh not scheme48 too, ;-( 05:34:44 Scsh and Scheme48 both share the same condition system. 05:35:05 well, there might be some porting needed 05:35:10 Real programmers use SRFI-12. 05:35:15 Bletch. 05:38:55 Riastradh: Why blech on SRFIs? 05:39:04 grettke: bad srfis? 05:39:36 duncanm: 12 was revoked wasn't it 05:39:44 looks that way, withdrawn 05:39:59 *mejja* hits grettke with srfi 86 05:40:28 mejja: oh, that's a beauty! 05:40:54 that's not the only one right, he wrote another one that's like that too 05:41:10 *grettke* ducks, but is winged by the lowest, primitive layer of SRFI 68 05:41:41 how are the R6 libraries? 05:43:35 -!- zxcvbs [n=sadf@201.250.42.138] has left #scheme 05:44:14 Mr Soo wrote several April Fools' jokes of SRFIs that he didn't get. 05:44:21 -!- hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD125054017176.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit ["|_ e /\ \/ i |/| G"] 05:44:25 (He didn't get the dates of submission right, either.) 05:44:51 heh 05:44:55 Riastradh: are you in MA for the weekend? 05:45:46 Riastradh: Backbiter! 05:46:51 -!- kryptos23 [n=kryptos@59.92.60.7] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:48:25 *Daemmerung* waves to Soo from the irclogs 05:48:26 umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has joined #scheme 05:48:50 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 05:49:22 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.scheme/msg/0d8414f3d4a9e15a 05:50:17 Riastradh: the latest version of psyntax in Ikarus, is a bit cleaned up 05:51:17 and it is still 'portable' in the sense that 'we' have it (the latest psyntax in Ikarus) working on IronScheme and now mosh-scheme too 05:53:07 but there is lotsa room for improvement IMO 05:54:04 after a year of 'hacking' through it, I kinda understand a bit of it :) 05:58:36 duncanm, no. 05:58:44 leppie, right. A year. 05:58:45 *Riastradh* coughs. 05:59:04 leppie: are you working on IronScheme? 05:59:36 mejja, caution! Caution, Will Robinson! 05:59:40 Hmm...doesn't have quite the same ring to it. 05:59:54 mejja: What is a backbiter? 06:00:03 haha 06:00:22 I don't think human mouths even have the right shape to knaw on human backs. 06:00:37 sure they do hehe 06:00:59 Riastradh: i think it's gnaw ;-) 06:01:04 ...gnaw, indeed. 06:01:29 i think it's cool that 'know' used to be pronounced 'kuh-noh' 06:01:38 fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-088-068-109-066.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 06:01:38 Obviously someone here has more experience in the matter of gnawing on human backs, and it has grown sufficiently late that I have caesed to be abel to spell. 06:01:40 so gnaw might have been guh-naw 06:02:18 So, Mr Soo, if you read this, wherever you are (Korea, I imagine), let it be gnown that grettke is a more experienced backbiter than I! 06:02:43 And with that, I shall spell. 06:02:46 ...slep. 06:02:47 Slepp. 06:02:53 ... 06:03:03 heh 06:03:04 Riastradh: slep wel 06:04:47 vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has joined #scheme 06:05:03 bye folks 06:05:14 grettke: are you working on IronScheme? 06:05:16 -!- grettke [n=grettke@CPE-65-31-132-59.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [] 06:05:41 oh, it's leppie, not grettke 06:06:08 leppie: do you know about clojure? 06:08:59 hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD125054017176.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 06:09:52 -!- vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:20:38 Mr_Awesome [n=eric@pool-72-69-243-9.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 06:24:06 -!- valiza2 [n=haroldo@r190-134-159-214.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:50:40 leppie_work [n=DKK@dsl-243-32-00.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 06:50:54 -!- leppie_work [n=DKK@dsl-243-32-00.telkomadsl.co.za] has left #scheme 06:51:35 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.104] has joined #scheme 07:00:03 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless6.wireless.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:01:36 -!- fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-088-068-109-066.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:11:04 olgen [n=jacobm@130.226.238.69] has joined #scheme 07:15:19 -!- dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:18:01 jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 07:23:55 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B054947.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 07:39:28 -!- bsmntbombdood is now known as xor 07:41:53 -!- xor is now known as bsmntbombdood 07:42:28 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 07:44:29 -!- bsmntbombdood is now known as xor_ 07:48:29 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 07:50:16 damn; it's getting too cold to code outside all night 07:50:27 and i was just beginning to enjoy the infinite canopy 07:50:39 but when the dogs can't take it any more: bad sign 07:50:42 outdoor heater? 07:57:08 schmalbe [n=bernhard@p549A0545.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 07:58:20 sounds like a plan 07:58:43 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B054947.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:58:45 coding by the fire with two dogs under the stars feels more natural than inside, for some reason 07:58:59 even though the undertaking is utterly unnatural 07:59:38 but then again: the undertaking is governed by mathematics; and what is more natural than mathematics? 08:02:06 try making a laptop computer from scratch, then we can talk about what's natural 08:02:45 exactly; but what was it that dijkstra said: something about cs having as little to do with computers as astronomy, telescopes? 08:03:58 Dijkstra is the man! 08:04:10 Or 'was', rather ;) 08:04:46 i was with him up until "goto considered harmful"; i'll never forgive him for fucking up a great way to recover from deeply nested loops 08:05:19 i hate flags 08:05:36 Without computers, what is CS? 08:05:38 heh 08:05:49 klutometis: that's what escape continuations are for ;) 08:06:09 ecraven: heh, exactly 08:06:16 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-69-143-195-98.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 08:06:21 synx: Thinking about the nature computation 08:06:43 synx: Computers are useful to test your theories, of course :) 08:06:54 nature *of computation 08:07:28 I mean in terms of application. 08:07:39 What can you do with CS? 08:07:43 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-206-125-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 08:08:22 i always thought that application was engineering; possibly distinct from cs 08:08:40 of course, most programmers aren't lucky enough to *have* escape continuations 08:08:49 I think that's like asking "what can you do with maths?" 08:09:10 I don't really think of it as a purely theoretical science. 08:09:21 It does have application in linguistics... the guy who thought up "teaching songs" was a computer scientist, totally. 08:09:37 Well sure, but you can build pyramids with maths. No computer necessary. 08:10:57 elmex [n=elmex@e180064038.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 08:11:11 it seems to me that coming up with an elegant algorithm, say, and implementing the same are two distinct activities 08:11:15 Organizing and sorting stuff has application outside computers... I've used a primitive sort of merge sort more than once before. 08:11:44 the latter is almost a mechanical process of translation; and the former doesn't need computers 08:12:30 klutometis: only if the concepts of your meta-language are the same as the concepts of your language 08:12:52 hmm; good point 08:13:06 i've probably been spoiled by scheme; where the translation from algo to code is almost immediate 08:13:44 i couldn't imagine implementing most of CLRS, say, in c or java 08:13:59 clrs? 08:14:20 cormen, leiserson, rivest, stein 08:14:23 the algorithms book 08:14:40 It's interesting trying to sort things without computers. It bears some unique problems that bits don't exactly have. 08:14:55 The "swap" operation can be exceedingly expensive for instance, and it goes up in cost as your piles grow. 08:15:27 that's interesting; a tried sorting a pile of papers the other day, for instance, and realized that i had fallen into bubble sort 08:15:33 Whereas with a computerized list you can just index it with a bunch of pointers, so swap operations are always cheap. 08:15:56 quicksort or heapsort would have been hideously unnatural 08:16:14 synx: indexing a *list* is rather expensive 08:17:04 It might not be as expensive as copying around the elements of that list. 08:19:19 Without computers in fact, library card catalogs are exactly an index like that. You still have to keep the physical books sorted by number though... but it's relatively easy to resort the catalog cards. 08:19:24 ...still a pain in the ass, but. 08:20:19 in fact, they used to have mechanical sorters that worked by radix sort 08:23:43 jao [n=user@129.Red-83-42-110.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 08:25:06 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 08:25:40 hm.. clrs looks interesting, is it good? 08:31:24 hey ecraven 08:31:27 what's clrs? 08:31:42 duncanm: hey ;) cormen leiserson rivest stein - introduction to algorithms 08:31:42 -!- cubix [n=cubix@CPE0013100506c1-CM001692411b42.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:31:49 hey klutometis 08:31:58 ejs [n=eugen@80.91.178.218] has joined #scheme 08:32:07 i should go to bed 08:32:26 -!- ejs is now known as ejs0 08:41:20 cubix [n=cubix@CPE0013100506c1-CM001692411b42.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 08:52:47 -!- synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:57:41 vy [n=user@213.139.194.86] has joined #scheme 08:57:59 How can I get a list of arguments of a function in R5RS? 08:58:29 ecraven: it's pretty good actually; i was about to go through TAOCP, but Riastradh recommended CLRS instead 08:58:44 vy: (lambda x ...) will give you all the arguments in a list named 'x' 08:59:11 ecraven: i'm glad, too; CLRS is somehow both discursive and rigorous 08:59:19 ecraven: usually you have to choose one or the other 08:59:43 klutometis: i started a few times on taocp, but never got all the way through 08:59:52 taocp is a very tough read 09:00:07 I have it on my shelf, but it's mostly unread 09:00:27 sjamaan: I mean arguments of a previously defined function. 09:00:30 i'm not sure it's that edifying, either; going through CLRS is almost comparable to SICP, but at a different level 09:00:43 vy: I'm not sure I understand you, then 09:01:30 SICP is almost an hors d'oeuvre to CLRS 09:01:36 :) 09:01:48 sjamaan: Looking for something similar to MOP of Common Lisp. 09:02:26 vy: Maybe you want tinyCLOS? 09:04:13 there's also sos for mit-scheme 09:06:41 ecraven: What are the major differences between those? 09:06:54 The manual says there are some naming differences 09:07:37 i haven't used SOS for any projects, but it has a number of optimisations over tiny clos 09:09:55 cracki [n=cracki@44-038.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 09:13:47 -!- umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 09:22:59 -!- cracki [n=cracki@44-038.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 09:23:20 ilSignorCarlo [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has joined #scheme 09:24:25 ilSignor1arlo [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has joined #scheme 09:26:43 ilSignor2arlo [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has joined #scheme 09:27:35 -!- ilSignor2arlo [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Client Quit] 09:27:39 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:27:54 -!- ilSignor1arlo [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Client Quit] 09:28:01 borism [n=boris@195-50-206-125-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 09:28:03 -!- AshyIsMe [n=User@b415.adsl.ecomtel.com.au] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 09:28:10 -!- ilSignorCarlo [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Client Quit] 09:28:26 ilSignorCarlo [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has joined #scheme 09:29:02 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 09:33:28 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:34:46 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 09:41:02 fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-088-068-109-066.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 09:49:59 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-107.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 09:55:33 -!- kryptos23____ [n=kryptos@59.92.24.101] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.81 [Firefox 2.0.0.17/2008082909]"] 09:56:01 timchen1` [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has joined #scheme 09:57:00 -!- nasloc__ [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:57:01 AshyIsMe [n=User@b415.adsl.ecomtel.com.au] has joined #scheme 09:57:57 -!- xhanjian [n=Jan@218.109.76.46] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:18:36 xhanjian [n=Jan@218.109.76.46] has joined #scheme 10:27:21 -!- echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-05ae19258f7295e9] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:33:44 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-37-230.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 10:42:15 tizoc__ [n=user@r190-135-39-175.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 10:46:36 -!- ttmrichter [n=ttmricht@59.172.140.193] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:50:13 -!- jao [n=user@129.Red-83-42-110.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:51:31 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-22-59.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:53:27 ttmrichter [n=ttmricht@221.235.62.81] has joined #scheme 11:00:16 -!- tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-37-230.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:12:47 kazuki [n=kazuki@ntfkok170227.fkok.nt.ftth4.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 11:13:15 -!- kazuki [n=kazuki@ntfkok170227.fkok.nt.ftth4.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 11:43:04 jgracin [n=jgracin@89-172-58-154.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #scheme 11:44:29 I just want to be sure: There is no way in Scheme to get the argument list of a previously defined function, right? 11:45:15 that depends on your Scheme implementation 11:45:20 there's no portable way in r5rs or r6rs 11:47:44 -!- brandelune [n=JC@pl176.nas934.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:48:02 vy: In the simplest case, you can just (define proc (let ((old-proc proc)) (lambda args .... (apply old-proc args)))) 11:48:09 That's portable 11:48:11 vy: can you explain that a bit more? 11:48:19 "get" in what sense? 11:48:39 pjdelport: He asked before. He wants to intercept the arguments to an existing procedure 11:50:38 *vy* couldn't understand what's so ambiguous about his question. 11:51:07 ecraven: sjamaan: Thanks. 11:58:43 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 12:03:17 -!- cubix [n=cubix@CPE0013100506c1-CM001692411b42.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 12:03:48 vy: You may also want to look into AOP. It was invented by Schemers ;) 12:05:36 oh, i thought you want to look at the argument list, like in reflection ;-/ 12:07:46 that's what it sounded like 12:07:47 foof: AOP? Aspect-Oriented Programming? 12:08:51 yes 12:10:02 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:10:12 I think some schemes also have elisp-like 'advice' functionality 12:10:14 benny [n=benny@i577A1A7A.versanet.de] has joined #scheme 12:10:17 (or did that come from CL?) 12:10:38 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 12:15:08 brandelune [n=JC@pl323.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 12:16:27 -!- ejs0 [n=eugen@80.91.178.218] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:25:22 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.86] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:27:01 vy [n=user@213.139.194.86] has joined #scheme 12:29:30 tizoc [n=user@r190-135-33-203.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 12:29:30 -!- tizoc__ [n=user@r190-135-39-175.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:33:52 ejs0 [n=eugen@80.91.178.218] has joined #scheme 12:43:58 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-95-99.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 12:44:27 hemulen [n=hemulen@12-187-217-2.att-inc.com] has joined #scheme 12:48:37 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Client Quit] 12:50:37 -!- ilSignorCarlo [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:56:25 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-14-101.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 12:57:24 mopped [i=3lliott@user.custhost.se] has joined #scheme 12:57:50 I'm having a bit of a problem getting my head around collector functions, can anyone reccomend a small tutorial regarding them? ;) 13:01:14 GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-235-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:09:17 annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has joined #scheme 13:11:32 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-33-203.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:12:48 synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has joined #scheme 13:18:18 -!- schmalbe [n=bernhard@p549A0545.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:19:59 athos [n=philipp@p54B877AE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 13:20:09 tizoc [n=user@r190-135-53-183.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 13:33:49 -!- tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-14-101.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:39:13 allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #scheme 13:42:02 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 13:53:26 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 14:02:00 annodomini [n=lambda@130.189.179.215] has joined #scheme 14:15:51 -!- hemulen [n=hemulen@12-187-217-2.att-inc.com] has quit [] 14:17:09 -!- olgen [n=jacobm@130.226.238.69] has quit [] 14:21:32 hemulen [n=hemulen@12-187-217-2.att-inc.com] has joined #scheme 14:26:12 umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has joined #scheme 14:28:31 -!- lde [n=lde@184-dzi-2.acn.waw.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:29:19 -!- aquanaut` [n=user@pool-71-191-49-201.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:29:29 aquanaut` [n=user@pool-71-191-49-201.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 14:30:31 cubix [n=cubix@CPE0013100506c1-CM001692411b42.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 14:36:30 -!- rmrfchik [n=paul@relay2.jet.msk.su] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:39:49 -!- athos [n=philipp@p54B877AE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:40:37 -!- allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:42:24 jlongster [n=user@75.148.111.133] has joined #scheme 14:47:33 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:49:52 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@89-172-58-154.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:50:12 ventonegro [n=user@136.166.1.3] has joined #scheme 14:52:10 -!- ventonegro [n=user@136.166.1.3] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:52:25 ventonegro [n=user@136.166.1.3] has joined #scheme 14:53:10 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 15:01:54 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.104] has quit ["bbl"] 15:16:38 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.86] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:25:15 cracki [n=cracki@44-038.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 15:25:24 *Daemmerung* kicks a pile of pixels across the room 15:25:39 Hey! Clean that up. 15:26:04 Great. Hack all weekend, and now I have a steaming pile of code even less functional than it was before the weekend. Less than beautiful code, too. grumble. 15:26:15 *Daemmerung* trudges off to find a broom and dustpan 15:26:40 hemulen_ [n=hemulen@12-187-217-2.att-inc.com] has joined #scheme 15:27:42 roll back to friday 15:27:44 -!- hemulen [n=hemulen@12-187-217-2.att-inc.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:27:49 svn revert! 15:28:16 duncanm: yes I am the author (mostly) of IronScheme 15:29:34 leppie: you're supposed to say that like Ozzy: "I AM IRR-RON SCHEME" 15:30:17 *leppie* tunes his voice box to: "Cradle of Filth" 15:30:19 heav-eee sexps of lead / fill his users full of dread / consing as fast as it can / ir-ron scheme runs again 15:30:53 -!- ejs0 [n=eugen@80.91.178.218] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 15:30:54 lol 15:33:10 -!- GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-235-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:34:35 GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-235-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:37:08 -!- hemulen_ [n=hemulen@12-187-217-2.att-inc.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:37:40 hemulen [n=hemulen@12-187-217-2.att-inc.com] has joined #scheme 15:43:36 -!- Mr_Awesome [n=eric@pool-72-69-243-9.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:54:34 Anyone about that can offer some help on recursive definitions? 15:58:20 ask to ask to ask to ask, not. 16:01:45 hey sladegen 16:02:31 duncanm: heeya 16:02:43 sladegen: doing any hacking lately? 16:03:21 Ok, http://paste.lisp.org/display/68426 - Why is it ((lambda (length), and what's eternity doing there :P 16:03:40 nope... mostly trying to relear lisp in the context of CL... weird as it is to schemer ;) 16:03:44 -!- Lemon [n=karl@CMU-301252.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:04:10 sladegen: why CL? 16:05:15 learning hunchentoot... 16:05:41 mopped: it's an argument to that (lambda (lenght) ...) form. 16:05:56 like this... 16:06:19 rudybot: eval ((lambda (func) (func 3 4)) +) 16:06:21 sladegen: ; Value: 7 16:06:23 oh yeah doh, so it returns a function that only returns an answer when its given an empty list as a parameter? 16:06:56 hmm? 16:07:20 as in the ((lambda (length) CREATES a function, so passing eternity creates a function that only returns on null? 0 16:07:45 mopped: you need to pay attention to your parens 16:07:51 mopped: yes, it's running a procedure that returns a procedure that uses something called eternity as a length parameter. 16:08:08 sladegen: hunchentoot is a CL web framework? 16:09:10 duncanm: yeah... web server thingy sprinkled with cl-who, i.e. s-expression bassed html creation. 16:09:30 sladegen: did you stop working on the parser thing? 16:11:41 yes, i got it running in scsh but ... well it lacks the spirit of ometa really. very "compact" and scheme-geared. not even sure if it could be used to write real object-oriented parser framework. 16:12:17 sladegen: hmm 16:13:37 mopped: (a b) applies `a' to `b'. Hence ((lambda (blah) ...) blort) applies a procedure of one argument to the value of `blort'. 16:14:49 -!- proq is now known as proqesi 16:14:57 -!- proqesi is now known as proq 16:15:25 Does it go from bottom to top? 16:15:32 ? 16:15:34 (let ((var (lambda (foo) ...))) (var ...)) doesn't work in CL ... it's not really lisp ;) 16:15:37 uh sec 16:16:33 sladegen: I think you have to use FUNCALL there. 16:17:01 flet... , bah. 16:17:12 funky 16:17:20 But 'flet' is fun to say. 16:18:08 Scheme is boring in that regard. set-cdr! - bah - give me RPLACD. 16:18:36 http://paste.lisp.org/display/68427 16:18:45 It goes from the bottom up right? 16:18:54 in finding out the functions returned 16:18:57 but apropos, describe and documentation would be a good thing to have codified in r7rs ;) 16:19:38 "Bottom up?" Still no clue what you mean.... 16:20:09 eternity is put into the bottom lambda, which is put into the second, which is put into the first and the result function is returned? 16:20:09 sladegen: ha! 16:21:46 mopped: Scheme is not line oriented. Don't think of bottom and top. Think of outer and inner. 16:22:02 yeah, thats a better term 16:22:13 Just this is getting quite confusing now! 16:22:50 you can put if off from now with call/cc! 16:23:36 mopped: so model the evaluation of that expression. 16:23:51 You might do well by starting with a simpler version of it. 16:24:40 I.e., if you strip off the outermost application, you'll get a simpler expression with the same challenge. 16:24:53 i see 16:24:56 duncanm: u have a question for me? 16:25:29 leppie: i went to a talk on Clojure, and being more of a .NET guy than JVM guy, that made me wanna look into something like IronScheme 16:26:03 i have not looked at clojure yet 16:26:11 leppie: it's very nice 16:26:12 but it seems quite popular 16:26:21 Each layer is of the form (a b), where a is a lambda-expression, and b is some application. (And that b-application is recursively more of the same.) So take your (a (b (c d))) and consider - what is (b (c d))? 16:26:43 leppie: it's very pragmatic, and given the design constraints, i think richard has pretty good taste in PL design 16:27:27 did you want know how I handle exceptions/conditions? 16:27:51 leppie: no i don't 16:28:16 ok, i just noticed some talk about it 16:28:39 IronScheme's is far from perfect, but good enough for now 16:29:00 leppie: i programmed some Typed Scheme the other day, and it was really fun 16:29:47 havently looked at it either 16:31:40 leppie: it's okay, it's good that you don't look at stuff, that's the way you get to have working code, and i have none ;-) 16:31:41 -!- cubix [n=cubix@CPE0013100506c1-CM001692411b42.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:31:55 i just spend all day looking around ;-p 16:32:01 lol :) 16:32:57 i am pretty much sticking to Scheme specifically R6RS, and anything that can be built on top of it 16:33:27 no point in trying to be good in dozens of languages 16:33:44 hemulen_ [n=hemulen@12-187-217-2.att-inc.com] has joined #scheme 16:34:42 -!- hemulen [n=hemulen@12-187-217-2.att-inc.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:39:25 ivarref [n=ivarref@leia.ifi.uio.no] has joined #scheme 16:40:27 la la la 16:41:34 cubix [n=cubix@CPE0013100506c1-CM001692411b42.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 16:43:13 schmalbe [n=bernhard@p549A0545.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 16:56:33 lde [n=lde@184-dzi-2.acn.waw.pl] has joined #scheme 17:05:27 notyouravgjoel [n=jmccrack@student312-1.psc.edu] has joined #scheme 17:06:52 hmm 17:06:58 scheme-irc.webhop.org is down 17:08:21 notyouravgjoel pasted "sicp wtf?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68428 17:08:49 -!- hemulen_ [n=hemulen@12-187-217-2.att-inc.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:08:57 hemulen [n=hemulen@12-187-217-2.att-inc.com] has joined #scheme 17:09:12 guys, not sure what is going on, but can someone look at this? the code for sicp:fold-left was lifted from exercise 2.38 17:09:20 it seems like the code *in sicp* is wrong 17:11:27 -!- synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:13:41 MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has joined #scheme 17:14:32 http://paste.lisp.org/display/68429 Can somebody help explain how this function works? ;) 17:15:06 I understood it when mk-length was for a finite length, as it tagged onto eternity if you tried to measure one too many 17:15:18 but im a bit lost now :P 17:15:25 bweaver [n=bweaver@75.148.111.133] has joined #scheme 17:16:40 synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has joined #scheme 17:19:30 besiria [n=user@ppp083212086007.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #scheme 17:20:37 -!- jlongster [n=user@75.148.111.133] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:20:41 -!- hemulen [n=hemulen@12-187-217-2.att-inc.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:20:49 hemulen [n=hemulen@12-187-217-2.att-inc.com] has joined #scheme 17:23:42 no ideas, anyone? 17:24:06 what is wrong? 17:24:20 it seems like the definition for fold-left is wrong in sicp 17:24:33 -!- cracki [n=cracki@44-038.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 17:24:51 unless i'm missing something 17:25:10 nope, its correct 17:25:50 is fold in srfi/1 the same as fold-left? 17:26:00 probably not 17:26:07 iirc not 17:26:15 i recall talking about this at some time 17:26:20 ah, okay 17:26:40 well, do you know of any equiv to fold-left in srfi? 17:26:50 let me look 17:26:58 thanks =) 17:29:09 i cant see anything from a quick look 17:29:16 http://list.cs.brown.edu/pipermail/plt-scheme/2008-June/025505.html 17:29:23 maybe? 17:29:36 but i have a working version, defined differently to the sicp 17:30:09 ah well 17:30:14 ill work on it a little bit more 17:30:17 notyouravgjoel: http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-1/mail-archive/msg00021.html 17:31:03 ah, okay 17:31:05 thanks 17:33:52 Mr_Awesome [n=eric@isr5956.urh.uiuc.edu] has joined #scheme 17:37:13 and thus completes 2.39, the 17:37:15 then* 17:37:26 thanks mejja 17:37:35 yep, thanks 17:38:21 besiria` [n=user@ppp083212086157.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #scheme 17:39:01 -!- notyouravgjoel [n=jmccrack@student312-1.psc.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:40:07 carlf [i=carlf@photocarl.org] has joined #scheme 17:40:49 OceanSpray [n=karl@LEMON.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 17:43:42 -!- ivarref [n=ivarref@leia.ifi.uio.no] has quit ["leaving"] 17:45:13 -!- MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has left #scheme 17:48:30 -!- lde [n=lde@184-dzi-2.acn.waw.pl] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:53:53 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212086007.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Success] 17:54:42 gigabytes [n=gigabyte@host40-234-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 17:55:22 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 17:55:37 lisppaste: url 17:55:37 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste. 17:55:53 mopped: I annotated your paste. Please direct your pastes to this channel per the above in the future. 18:03:49 mopped: does that function work at all? Seems you're calling mk-length with an argument, when the lambda passed takes no arguments. 18:05:55 No, synx. Go read about recursion and Y. 18:06:49 Daemmerung: I know why you pass a "rest" argument to have tail recursion. It just doesn't seem like this function will work. 18:07:01 tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has joined #scheme 18:09:11 Oh I get it, mk-length gets itself as a procedure, to call the next mk-length without needing a scoped name. 18:09:34 ...and it's not tail recursive. jeez I'm slow today 18:15:49 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has joined #scheme 18:15:52 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:16:02 -!- besiria` [n=user@ppp083212086157.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:19:20 lde [n=lde@184-dzi-2.acn.waw.pl] has joined #scheme 18:19:27 -!- schmalbe [n=bernhard@p549A0545.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:20:28 -!- kazzmir__ is now known as kazzmir_ 18:22:58 -!- carlf [i=carlf@photocarl.org] has left #scheme 18:25:44 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #scheme 18:26:30 -!- lde [n=lde@184-dzi-2.acn.waw.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:30:33 -!- linas [n=linas@h-67-100-217-179.dllatx37.covad.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:34:53 mopped: mk-length can only take itself as a parameter, not a list or (cdr l). What it returns however... 18:37:28 synx: there's a bug in the original paste that I didn't correct. It should be applying itself when it recurs; hence ((mk-length mk-length)(cdr l)). 18:38:03 Because mk-length isn't being bound to the length function, but rather to the fixpoint of that function. 18:40:18 linas [n=linas@h-67-100-217-179.dllatx37.covad.net] has joined #scheme 18:45:35 Yes I know. I was trying to help mopped with it. 18:46:44 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B05782B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 18:47:03 how can I truncate a rational number into an integer? 18:50:58 Truncate in which direction? 18:51:08 Toward zero? Toward negative or positive infinity? Toward the nearest even integer? 18:51:13 the lower integer 18:51:21 `Lower' meaning...? 18:51:23 I mean 18:51:30 I have (/ a 2) 18:51:38 if a is 5 18:51:41 I want 2 18:51:44 not 2.5 18:52:00 I want an integer division 18:52:02 Well, 2 is the result of rounding 2.5 toward zero, toward negative infinity, and toward the nearest even integer. 18:52:08 Aha! Perhaps you want QUOTIENT, then. 18:52:15 yes XD 18:52:35 is "quotient" a function? 18:52:40 r5rs quotient 18:52:40 http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_idx_288 18:52:41 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/4nw6s8 18:52:46 complementary of "remainder" I guess 18:53:46 yes 18:53:52 Riastradh: thanks 18:55:09 hm.. 18:55:17 Riastradh: I'm just learning scheme 18:55:43 Riastradh: I'm trying to write a function that puts the binary rappresentation of a number into a string 18:55:56 Maybe you want NUMBER->STRING, but OK...! 18:56:08 yes... number->string in base 2 18:56:09 but 18:56:14 I want to write it myself 18:56:21 In any case, if you want to implement NUMBER->STRING on non-negative integers, yes: you'll want to use QUOTIENT & REMAINDER. 18:56:29 yes 18:56:33 *Riastradh* vanishes. 18:56:38 but the question is how 18:56:52 I need a sequence? 18:57:19 -!- fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-088-068-109-066.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [No route to host] 18:57:25 aaco [n=aaco@unaffiliated/aaco] has joined #scheme 18:57:26 I thought about a recursive function 18:57:26 but 18:57:29 no idea... 18:58:03 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1A7A.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:03:30 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-52-2.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 19:03:37 -!- xhanjian [n=Jan@218.109.76.46] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:04:36 (your-function 12) => "1100" 19:04:43 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-53-183.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 19:04:45 -!- tizoc_ is now known as tizoc 19:04:59 (your-function 3) => "11" 19:05:30 (your-function 7) => "111" 19:05:51 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 19:06:03 See a pattern? 19:08:16 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-10-175.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 19:09:16 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-52-2.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 19:09:21 -!- tizoc_ is now known as tizoc 19:09:45 -!- kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:14:29 saccade_ [n=saccade@207-180-186-165.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 19:15:44 benny [n=benny@i577A0DDB.versanet.de] has joined #scheme 19:25:53 xerox [n=xerox@unaffiliated/xerox] has joined #scheme 19:30:18 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit ["Smile! "] 19:32:05 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@207-180-186-165.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:32:26 Daemmerung, yes, binary representation. 19:35:10 *mejja* reads http://www.bitsbook.com/blog/ 19:37:31 Daemmerung: yes I know :D 19:37:40 Daemmerung: I'm used to imperative languages 19:37:43 that's the problem 19:37:49 not the binary base XD 19:37:50 bye bye 19:37:51 -!- gigabytes [n=gigabyte@host40-234-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [] 19:38:29 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-146-152-ndn-esr-3.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [] 19:38:33 leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-146-152-ndn-esr-3.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 19:38:54 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-146-152-ndn-esr-3.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Client Quit] 19:38:58 leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-146-152-ndn-esr-3.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 19:38:59 -!- aaco [n=aaco@unaffiliated/aaco] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:40:50 cubix_ [n=cubix@CPE0013100506c1-CM001692411b42.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 19:42:41 -!- cubix [n=cubix@CPE0013100506c1-CM001692411b42.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:51:09 emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 19:51:50 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0DDB.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:52:12 geckosenator [n=sean@c-24-8-193-190.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:57:48 -!- sjamaan [n=sjamaan@frohike-old.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:57:59 sjamaan [n=sjamaan@frohike-old.xs4all.nl] has joined #scheme 20:02:16 -!- umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has quit [] 20:03:12 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:06:43 emma_ [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 20:07:09 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:07:21 emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 20:09:05 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:09:10 -!- emma_ is now known as emma 20:11:51 -!- geckosenator [n=sean@c-24-8-193-190.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:12:01 geckosenator [n=sean@c-24-8-193-190.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:12:03 fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-084-059-063-198.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 20:12:25 emma_ [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 20:12:32 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 20:13:26 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 20:19:19 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:19:46 -!- xerox [n=xerox@unaffiliated/xerox] has quit ["Quit"] 20:20:18 allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #scheme 20:27:17 -!- CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-75-68-42-94.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:27:33 Xion345 [n=Xion345@stang.ens.insa-rennes.fr] has joined #scheme 20:39:09 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-107.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 20:41:53 -!- emma_ [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:42:08 emma_ [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 20:43:42 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit ["Smile! "] 20:44:40 -!- emma_ [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:46:22 emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 20:47:02 arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-137-201-22.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 20:49:02 schumaml [i=50bb5e18@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-04273b0f4467db28] has joined #scheme 20:52:20 -!- linas [n=linas@h-67-100-217-179.dllatx37.covad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:53:45 linas [n=linas@h-67-100-217-179.dllatx37.covad.net] has joined #scheme 20:57:44 -!- schumaml [i=50bb5e18@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-04273b0f4467db28] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 20:58:14 kilimanjaro [n=foo@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 20:59:09 -!- hemulen [n=hemulen@12-187-217-2.att-inc.com] has quit [] 20:59:27 sz0 [n=user@85.102.83.80] has joined #scheme 21:06:59 Hello everyone, how's it going? 21:08:08 mejja pasted "Clueless Mr preprocessor" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68449 21:08:27 *mejja* backbites 21:08:40 -!- ventonegro [n=user@136.166.1.3] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:09:41 -!- geckosenator [n=sean@c-24-8-193-190.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:09:51 geckosenator [n=sean@c-24-8-193-190.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:15:48 hemulen [n=hemulen@12-187-217-2.att-inc.com] has joined #scheme 21:17:17 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 21:19:07 -!- sz0 [n=user@85.102.83.80] has left #scheme 21:20:22 synthase [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has joined #scheme 21:25:58 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:28:36 gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has joined #scheme 21:29:01 -!- Xion345 [n=Xion345@stang.ens.insa-rennes.fr] has left #scheme 21:29:11 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:30:20 -!- synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:37:37 -!- geckosenator [n=sean@c-24-8-193-190.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:37:52 geckosenator [n=sean@c-24-8-193-190.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:37:54 *Daemmerung* takes double damage 21:51:15 davyraku [n=davyraku@uahosting-0.merezha.net] has joined #scheme 21:51:34 -!- davyraku [n=davyraku@uahosting-0.merezha.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:52:31 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 21:53:00 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-5-33.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 21:53:10 sovubysoh [n=sovubyso@uahosting-0.merezha.net] has joined #scheme 21:53:54 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-10-175.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:53:56 -!- tizoc_ is now known as tizoc 21:55:48 -!- kilimanjaro [n=foo@70.116.95.163] has quit [] 21:58:06 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 21:58:31 -!- geckosenator [n=sean@c-24-8-193-190.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:58:42 geckosenator [n=sean@c-24-8-193-190.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:10:00 arcfide: ping 22:13:13 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B05782B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:16:45 -!- sovubysoh [n=sovubyso@uahosting-0.merezha.net] has quit [K-lined] 22:17:29 -!- mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:18:29 -!- nowhereman [i=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:19:27 nowhereman [i=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has joined #scheme 22:24:16 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:26:41 melito [n=melito@70.99.250.82] has joined #scheme 22:30:31 -!- geckosenator [n=sean@c-24-8-193-190.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:30:47 geckosenator [n=sean@c-24-8-193-190.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:34:01 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 22:35:20 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 22:54:42 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has left #scheme 22:54:47 emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 23:02:27 a lecture of LiSP really broadens one's horizon 23:03:37 -!- geckosenator [n=sean@c-24-8-193-190.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:03:52 geckosenator [n=sean@c-24-8-193-190.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:08:33 -!- bweaver [n=bweaver@75.148.111.133] has quit [] 23:09:39 eli: pong 23:11:31 -!- hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD125054017176.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit ["|_ e /\ \/ i |/| G"] 23:12:58 arcfide: you're the one who asked about performance of ffis? 23:13:18 eli: Yes. 23:13:36 In that case, you might find this interesting: http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32/benchmark.php?test=pidigits&lang=all 23:14:28 Given that all fast implementations use GMP, it's basically a test of how fast you can call it through your glue. 23:16:03 Interesting. 23:16:19 This doesn't really tell me much about the FFI details, thogh. 23:16:25 though, even. 23:16:27 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-75-68-42-94.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:17:09 No, it tells you that in one "practical" example, with moderately fast foreign work, the foreign call mechanics takes neglegible time. 23:22:02 raikov [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has joined #scheme 23:22:34 mib_eh86rw [i=43b9044f@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-999c237c607cda3a] has joined #scheme 23:24:16 -!- bohanlon [n=bohanlon@pool-71-184-116-124.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [""poking at my machine""] 23:31:37 -!- geckosenator [n=sean@c-24-8-193-190.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:31:49 eli: Are you sure this isn't a test of I/O? 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