00:01:04 allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #scheme 00:01:33 *Daemmerung* JFGIAs 00:04:46 mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 00:19:21 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-31-196.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 00:21:12 gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has joined #scheme 00:21:47 -!- bascule is now known as Bascule 00:27:39 -!- aack [n=user@s559195f7.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:28:33 jfgia? 00:28:42 * is higher precedence than ^ iirc 00:29:31 yrc 00:29:43 bitops are just above logops which are just above equality ops which are just above assignment ops 00:30:10 is my recollection. its been a while since i didnt just follow the tried-and-true maxim of 'if in doubt, parenthesise' though 00:30:29 parenthesise! let no one's precedence rules escape your mind! 00:30:55 thats why its good to left and right, parenthesise, parenthesise, parenthesise! 00:31:03 *Daemmerung* is porting somebody else's code 00:33:50 heh 00:37:22 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-13-8.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:38:29 borism_ [n=boris@195-50-200-75-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 00:44:29 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-206-234-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 00:51:08 Dark-Star [i=Darkstar@p57B55B53.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 00:56:39 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:00:41 -!- allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:01:50 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 01:05:03 -!- synx [i=pandora@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:07:20 synx [i=pandora@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 01:18:17 Porting code, heheh. 01:18:24 Sometimes that can be somewhat enjoyable. 01:18:28 Other times, not so much. 01:25:04 -!- vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has quit ["The incensed priests...continued to raise their voices, vituperating each other in bad Latin"] 01:25:11 Okay, this may make you laugh, elf: the expression was, in fact, fully parenthesized. I've just lost my ability to read dense C expressions... it all looks like applications of applications.... 01:40:12 that's because C is ugly :P 01:40:21 naw. 01:40:26 _I'll_ show you ugly: 01:40:32 *offby1* takes out his dentures and throws them at mbishop 01:40:44 -!- Dark-Star is now known as Dark-Star|away 01:45:01 c = ((((i&0x8)==0)^((j&0x8))==0))*255; /* redundant parens as in original */ 01:46:34 *arcfide* 's eye twitches uncontrollably. 01:50:30 (((i^j)&8)>>3)*255 01:52:10 ... wait... does * bind tighter than ^ ? 01:55:39 -!- melito [n=melito@70.99.250.82] has quit ["Leaving..."] 01:57:35 Riastradh: you're absolutely right -- it's one of the main reasons I settled on a "thin" C-level layer, and do most of the ffi itself in Scheme. 01:59:48 foof: exactly. 02:00:11 (if (bitwise-bit-set? (bitwise-xor i j) 3) 255 0) 02:08:41 -!- hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD125054017176.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit ["|_ e /\ \/ i |/| G"] 02:17:24 amca [n=amca@CPE-121-208-81-104.qld.bigpond.net.au] has joined #scheme 02:23:44 Daemmerung: ping 02:26:59 -!- cky [n=cky@202-74-212-35.ue.woosh.co.nz] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:26:59 -!- qebab [n=finnrobi@eros.orakel.ntnu.no] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:26:59 -!- hemulen [n=hemulen@cpe-069-134-114-252.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:26:59 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:26:59 -!- sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:26:59 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:26:59 -!- Elly [n=pyxy@PHYREXIA.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:26:59 -!- jdev [i=jdev@panix5.panix.com] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:26:59 -!- kazzmir_ [n=kazzmir@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:26:59 -!- lde [n=lde@184-dzi-2.acn.waw.pl] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:26:59 -!- maskd [i=maskd@unaffiliated/maskd] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:26:59 -!- Riastradh [n=rias@pool-141-154-225-78.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:27:13 cky [n=cky@202-74-212-35.ue.woosh.co.nz] has joined #scheme 02:27:13 qebab [n=finnrobi@eros.orakel.ntnu.no] has joined #scheme 02:27:13 hemulen [n=hemulen@cpe-069-134-114-252.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:27:13 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 02:27:13 schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #scheme 02:27:13 Riastradh [n=rias@pool-141-154-225-78.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 02:27:13 maskd [i=maskd@unaffiliated/maskd] has joined #scheme 02:27:13 Elly [n=pyxy@PHYREXIA.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 02:27:13 sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has joined #scheme 02:27:13 lde [n=lde@184-dzi-2.acn.waw.pl] has joined #scheme 02:27:13 jdev [i=jdev@panix5.panix.com] has joined #scheme 02:27:13 kazzmir_ [n=kazzmir@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:30:25 Daemmerung: ping 02:31:19 xwl [n=user@221.221.146.148] has joined #scheme 02:35:56 pung 02:36:40 -!- grnman [n=grnman@c-76-110-165-179.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has left #scheme 02:36:42 offby1: foreign-stuff... 02:36:53 "nasal demons", heh 02:37:48 ...and as a recent victim, it will be good to get Daemmerung's opinion. 02:51:09 -!- Dark-Star|away [i=Darkstar@p57B55B53.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:58:13 -!- tltstc [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has quit [] 02:59:28 -!- Arelius [n=Arelius@64.174.9.113] has quit [Client Quit] 02:59:55 Arelius [n=Arelius@64.174.9.113] has joined #scheme 03:01:59 elmex_ [n=elmex@85.180.65.205] has joined #scheme 03:02:20 annodomini [n=lambda@75.69.95.99] has joined #scheme 03:07:49 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 03:11:08 r2q2 [n=user@c-71-228-37-14.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:11:43 eli: ping about good things, not bad 03:12:06 ping of happy, not sad 03:15:51 Daemmerung: I think that I settled on (_fun #:callback-holder blah _whatever -> _whatever), not sure about the keyword name. 03:16:09 the holder value can be #f (don't hold a reference); 03:16:20 Refresh me on the semantics, please. 03:17:15 Well, using #f makes it behave as it is now -- the callback value is just hanging somewhere, so it's usable only for a callback in a single function call. 03:17:40 That is (foo (lambda ...)) is fine if the foo call will use the call back but not try to hold onto its value. 03:17:56 Hrm, what's all this? 03:17:57 -!- elmex [n=elmex@e180066037.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:17:58 -!- elmex_ is now known as elmex 03:17:59 Callbacks? 03:18:02 Sounds interesting. 03:18:17 Using #t for the holder will make it hold the value as long as the function is held; 03:18:26 Anyone here check out clojure? 03:18:34 r2q2: what is clojure? 03:18:55 arcfide: http://clojure.org/ 03:19:01 Daemmerung: That would make your case easy -- if you use the callback once to send a value that C holds onto, then all you need to do on the scheme side is make sure that the scheme function is not GCed. 03:19:39 Using a (box '()) will make it cons callbacks into the contents of the box, so if the function is used in a loop then all callback values are held; 03:19:57 Using a (box #f) will set callbacks as the contents of the box, overriding previous values; 03:20:16 And using a one-argument function will apply it on the callback value. 03:20:26 I've always wondered if it is better to maintain a set of callbacks on the Scheme side and just pass them to C as needed, or to use procedures to register callbacks on the C side and use them that way. 03:20:41 Oh it looks like jcowan has. 03:20:41 So I persist the box (if a box is being passed) to make the callback in that box persist? 03:20:55 s/persist/maintain a ref to/ 03:20:56 *arcfide* thinks of LOCK-OBJECT. 03:21:01 Daemmerung: Exactly. 03:21:05 rudybot: seen jcowan 03:21:05 r2q2: jcowan was seen in/on #scheme five hours, twenty-six minutes ago, saying "Also note that Lua interns every string, including the ones coming from C.", and then jcowan was seen in/on #scheme five hours, twenty-five minutes ago, saying "(I tried to convince Felix that Lua strings = Chicken symbols, but he wouldn't bite.)" 03:21:38 The box is easy to control -- you can set-box! it to throw away values, and you can store the box at the right level where the callback needs to be held. 03:21:50 eli: and the (lambda (x) ...) ? 03:22:12 For example, put it in a thread-cell (or a parameter), and the box will disappear (together with the callbacks) when the scheme cell dies. 03:22:31 I like giving the persistence a name. Means that a callback taking a callback taking a callback could be handled. 03:22:43 What about the (lambda (x) ...)? 03:22:59 arcfide: Not very interesting? 03:23:06 I don't see what passing a proc to #:callback-whatsit would do. 03:23:21 You say it'd be called on the callback; to what end? 03:23:23 The name makes sense -- because it can exist for some dynamic extent (a thread, a Scheme function, a module or whatever). 03:24:00 You can even hold the box as a field in a class, so when the object is collected the callback goes away with it. 03:24:10 (which might make sense in a mred context.) 03:24:15 johnnowak [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 03:24:28 No, I'm good on the box. What I don't quite follow is the effect of passing a single-arg procedure as the callback-holder. 03:24:31 r2q2: not very interesting to me, since I have a Scheme compiler that supports native threading, and compiles, yet remains dynamic. 03:24:55 arcfide: Which one is that? 03:24:58 Not to mention, I generally don't have a need for JVM type stuff. 03:25:06 Daemmerung: The function is just a very general way to do "whatever you want to do" with it, just in case a box is not good enough for some case I don't forsee now. 03:25:07 r2q2: Chez. 03:25:25 I imagine it could be useful for people who need to rely on the JVM. 03:25:26 Oh, I dig. box-set! etc. 03:25:46 Maybe shorten the keyword to #:callback? 03:25:52 Yes, -- a generic just-in-case. 03:26:16 arcfide: Is it worth it to shell out the $$$ for it? 03:26:25 r2q2: that depends, is it worth it to you? 03:26:29 That's doesn't seem accurate -- it looks like you're passing the callback value with such a keyword. 03:26:43 arcfide: I don't know how much money we are talking about. 03:26:57 And #:handler is too vague, and might be useful for several different things. 03:26:59 arcfide: I am pretty happy with the open source schemes though. 03:27:19 Agree on #:handler. So let me write an example: 03:27:30 r2q2: Think around the low triple digits. If you are happy with open source schemes, and indeed, maybe even if you are not, why bother? 03:27:38 Sorry, Quad digits. 03:27:39 Daemmerung: if you can think of some short mnemonic that combines "holder" and "callback", I'll be happy. (I'm not happy with such a long name too) 03:27:50 r2q2: like ~$1000 at the lowest. 03:28:19 I don't remember the exact amount. 03:28:27 arcfide: I think I will pass then. 03:28:31 :-) 03:28:41 arcfide: I can play around with petite chez scheme. 03:28:45 r2q2: what do you use right now? Do you use some Java based Scheme? 03:28:55 (get-ffi-obj "init_mod" (_fun #:abi 'yomomma (_fun #:abi 'yomomma #:callback-holder ref-to-box _uint32 -> _uint32) -> _void)) 03:29:02 SISC seemed to be a good one, but I haven't used it. 03:29:05 Not for a while. 03:29:08 [arcfide: btw, I didn't mean to ignore you -- the issue is when you send a Scheme callback to C, then you need to prevent the value from being GCed, and the user must specify that in some way, hopefully without something like a `free'.] 03:29:29 s//a ffi-lib in there/ 03:29:42 eli: are you desiging an API for defining permanent callbacks for C? 03:29:54 eli: Or is this something else? 03:30:04 eli: Just stylistic techniques for maintaining callbacks? 03:30:18 Daemmerung: Yes, that's how it will be used, and I wish there was a shorter reasonable keyword. 03:30:34 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #scheme 03:30:42 arcfide: no -- extending the PLT ffi to handle holding callback values in a sane way. 03:31:05 arcfide: No. PLT scheme / s48. 03:31:57 eli: maybe #:instance-ref, since it's being used when a new instance of the embedded _fun is consed. 03:32:21 eli: Hrm, I guess I don't know how PLT's FFI works, but what's wrong with doing something like INTERN-CALLBACK which will keep the callbacks so long as that scope is maintained, but when leaving that scope, will free the entries defined there? 03:32:26 But then it looks like a "class thing" 03:32:35 INTERN might not be the right term here. 03:32:37 Nix on instance, yeah. 03:32:59 Daemmerung: maybe just #:holder ? 03:33:23 Just where I'm going. Or #:ref-holder. 03:33:27 I've always just used LOCK-OBJECT. 03:33:49 And if I want to keep a callback around, I'll just define it in the scope that I want it to stay. 03:33:56 Or #:set-ref, even. 03:34:12 Nah, that's too, uh, unconnected. 03:34:26 set looked naked sans bang, too. 03:34:37 Right... 03:34:52 I think that #:holder is good enough. Perhaps there's some synonym that sounds better? 03:34:58 -!- Arelius [n=Arelius@64.174.9.113] has quit ["Caught signal 15, Terminated: 15"] 03:35:03 #:box 03:35:13 But it can hold other values... 03:35:16 #:jug 03:35:27 :) 03:35:30 #:magic-bag-of-holding 03:35:40 #:holder works. 03:35:46 OK... 03:36:12 arcfide: #:tensers-floating-disc 03:36:30 I personally don't like #:. :-) 03:36:43 [Daemmerung: 4.1.1 will come out very soon, so not much time to change, just in case you have a better name...] 03:36:48 arcfide: Neither do I, but I'm learning to live with it. 03:36:53 eli: countdown in...? 03:37:09 Probably/hopefully a day. 03:37:29 I'll sleep on it. Won't have a chance to sync to any of this until late tomorrow evening.... 03:37:35 OK. 03:38:18 arcfide: The whole thing is a Scheme-only interface to stuff that you can usually do only in C. The callbacks are specified just like "callouts" -- (_fun _int -> _int) can be used as a type of a C function, or a type for a callback value. 03:38:56 Eh . . . 03:39:08 For example, (_fun (_fun _int -> _int) _int -> _int) -- the _fun thing specifies the callback type in the same way as the callout type (an int->int function in this case). 03:39:40 But you still need a way to make the callback value (which is actually a kind of a C closure) stick around in case the C library will hold on to the value. 03:40:26 The tricky bit is to make it easy to control holding on to that value, in a way that plays nicely with Scheme -- that is, avoid some free()-like solution. 03:40:52 (which is, IIUC, some FFIs like the Haskel thing are doing.) 03:41:02 Eh . . . 03:41:21 Okay, I am afraid that is out of my league, since I only really know and understand Chez's FFI. 03:41:40 Is that ffi static or dynamic? 03:41:53 What do you mean by that? 03:42:33 Can you just pull out a random function from a .dll (or .so) and use it dynamically, or does it generate some code that needs to be compiled to be used? 03:43:09 eli, it works by loading shared objects and then providing means of creating Scheme procedures that map to these entry points in the shared library. 03:43:15 So, dynamic. 03:43:34 And how are Scheme values translated to C values? 03:44:11 The procedure to specify a procedure mapping to a foreign procedure takes keywords which specify the types of the arguments. 03:44:21 Each type may be translated slightly differently. 03:44:35 Can you make new such types? 03:44:37 Scheme->C does verification, C<-Scheme doesn't. 03:45:04 Not that is of any use. They would just map to the same static types. I know of know way to create new types that are fundamentally different than the old ones. 03:45:09 You mean C->Scheme there. 03:45:16 NO, C<-Scheme and Scheme->C. 03:45:24 Different semantics going one way and the other. 03:45:30 You wrote the same thing. 03:45:39 Where? 03:45:42 eli: see lock-object in http://www.scheme.com/csug7/foreign.html#./foreign:h5 03:46:05 "X<-Y and Y->X" -- both arrows go from X to Y. 03:46:06 arcfide: Look at the direction of the arrows. 03:46:11 Eherm, yes. 03:46:12 :-) 03:46:23 I mean C->Scheme, right. 03:46:35 *arcfide* chuckles. 03:46:39 arcfide: In any case, can you create new struct types? 03:47:05 Not explicitly. 03:47:09 Not that I know of at least. 03:47:29 You could pass a Scheme record, and do things with it, but not a C Struct. 03:47:52 arcfide: and the main question is -- can you pass a scheme function to C... 03:47:57 Yes. 03:48:09 From the URL that Daemmerung posted it looks like you can't do it in a uniform way. 03:48:18 Do what in a uniform way? 03:48:26 That is, you need to construct a callback object mechanically. 03:48:54 You mean, the pointer to the procedure to pass to a C function? 03:49:01 Yes. 03:49:32 Yes, any time you want to pass a Scheme procedure, you need to construct the pointer at least once per procedure. 03:50:01 Does PLT allow you to specify as a type passed to a C procedure some callback specification? 03:50:37 arcfide: that kind of stuff is what we don't need to do, we have only that `_fun' type -- it can be used both as the type of a C function (to be used in Scheme), or the type of a Scheme function (to be sent to C). 03:51:08 And if you pass a LAMBDA expression then it will construct the callback and pass it to C? 03:51:34 IOW, the answer to your last question is "yes", and the specification is the same as you use to specify a type for a C function. 03:51:44 I see. 03:52:12 For example, here's a hairy C function (from the test suite): 03:52:14 int hoho(int x, int(*(*f)(int))(int)) { return (f(x+1))(x-1); } 03:52:19 Okay, so the question is how to specify that you want to maintain the callback even after returning, because it is possible that the procedure and the associated callback are both anonymous and could be collected after returning from the C side? 03:52:37 From Scheme, I specify its type as (_fun _int (_fun _int -> (_fun _int -> _int)) -> _int) 03:53:07 and I use the resulting function like so: (foo 3 (lambda (x) (lambda (y) (+ y (* x x)))))) 03:53:09 I see. 03:53:24 Hrm, that would be a fun syntax project. 03:53:29 I might want to write that. 03:53:38 It might make a nice little library. 03:53:54 Nice -- yes, little -- not that much. 03:54:07 Sure, why not? That doesn't seem like such a large syntax. 03:54:11 Not for the simple case. 03:54:21 And it relies on the mechanism I designed for creating new Scheme<->C types. 03:56:08 arcfide: You can see the paper I wrote about it (Foreign interface for PLT Scheme, with Orlovsky), 03:56:27 and you can look at the code -- the Scheme parts of it. 03:56:40 Oh and I should add -- 03:56:48 http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32/benchmark.php?test=pidigits&lang=all 03:56:56 Hrm, interesting. 03:57:30 (which defines a GMP interface and an "assembly-like" language very quickly) 03:58:59 Curious indeed. 03:59:52 darx [n=darx@82-37-17-145.cable.ubr03.wolv.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #scheme 04:00:03 hi, how can i reassign a definition? 04:00:15 darx: Do you really want to do that, and in what context? 04:00:38 i defined a procedure wrongly. i need to change it 04:01:04 plt scheme complains that it can't change constant identifiers 04:02:06 is this what you meant by context? /usr/lib/plt/collects/scheme/private/misc.ss:68:7 04:02:31 arcfide: ^^ 04:02:41 darx: if you're working in drscheme, then you should simply change the definition and rerun the program. 04:03:07 I'm on the command line using mzscheme 04:03:40 the REPL that is 04:03:56 Can you be more precise about what you're trying to do? 04:05:03 I defined a procedure and it was wrong. When I tried to correct it, mzscheme complains that it "cannot change constant identifiers".. 04:05:35 How did you defined it? Did you just enter it on the repl? 04:06:01 yup 04:06:20 (define (foo x) x) 04:06:24 In that case it should complain about redefining the function. 04:07:30 darx: http://tmp.barzilay.org/x.txt -- that's straight from my command line 04:07:41 No complains. 04:08:11 hmm 04:10:53 thanks I'm gonna start over. 04:11:31 -!- xwl [n=user@221.221.146.148] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:14:43 Just to be clear why could such an error message occur? 04:15:36 it could happen when you define the function in a module and try to reenter the module. 04:20:42 nanothief [n=kvirc@203.94.189.86] has joined #scheme 04:22:04 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:26:48 eli: I see jay mccarthy and his cohorts have been busy on a more indepth how to with web applications with PLT 04:27:18 you mean the tutorial? 04:27:55 -!- tjafk1 [n=timj@e176213248.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:27:59 tjafk2 [n=timj@e176205163.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 04:28:40 eli: Yes. 04:29:59 *r2q2* is going to sleep. 04:30:02 -!- r2q2 [n=user@c-71-228-37-14.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:33:20 whee 04:33:36 I now have a grub boot option that launches mzscheme instead of login :) 04:34:59 -!- subversus [i=elliot@loveturtle.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:42:10 Arelius [n=Arelius@netblock-68-183-230-106.dslextreme.com] has joined #scheme 04:42:17 -!- synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has quit [Client Quit] 04:49:01 -!- mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:55:13 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 04:56:43 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 04:57:49 synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has joined #scheme 05:07:12 Elly, you mean it boots into linux and straight into a mzscheme prompt? 05:10:17 if so that's pretty cute 05:11:02 yea.. write a HOWTO :) 05:14:09 -!- amca [n=amca@CPE-121-208-81-104.qld.bigpond.net.au] has quit ["Farewell"] 05:20:00 *Debolaz* resumes his learning scheme project. 05:26:05 jonrafkind: yeah, it does 05:26:18 jonrafkind: it runs a very small init I wrote which launches mzscheme (and respawns it if it dies) 05:26:37 I'm in the process right now of writing some libraries to make it useable as a shell 05:27:50 but yeah, I could write a HOWTO :P 05:29:26 w/ 2 05:29:29 curses! 05:30:02 -!- gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:36:54 long time ago I heard about someone doing that with CL. 05:38:31 it's actually quite easy with mzscheme 05:38:39 you just need a few things from /usr/lib/plt/collects and some libs 05:41:15 wow, linux has a terrifying amount of kernel options 05:41:25 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless314.wireless.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:43:03 well, sure 05:43:10 jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:43:29 i dunno how useful mzscheme is as a shell replacement though.. 05:43:33 -!- synx [i=pandora@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:43:39 ive tried scsh and it wasn't so user friendly 05:43:39 it'd be terrible 05:43:59 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 05:44:03 interactive shells have different requirements than programming languages 05:44:06 Shivers found that out 05:44:13 synx [i=pandora@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 05:45:05 shivers? 05:45:11 I've used perl as a shell before 05:45:16 but it only worked because of `` 05:45:29 so you would want something equally terse for scheme 05:45:39 Elly: Olin Shivers, creator of scsh. 05:45:43 oh 05:45:46 yeah, scsh is terrible 05:45:47 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 05:45:51 *gsap* 05:45:55 it is a thing of beauty 05:46:05 not terribly _useful_, but beautiful. 05:46:07 it's SO not useable :P 05:46:20 bash, on the other hand, is hideous, but incredibly useful 05:46:22 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 05:46:36 I agree with "hideous" but I only half-agree with "incredibly useful". 05:46:45 it's my primary user interface 05:46:52 I only use bash for tab completion. 05:46:56 Any shell script more than a few lines long inevitably becomes a Perl, Python, or what-have-you script. 05:47:09 I know; I mean as a shell, not as a language 05:47:40 tab completion, and subprocess execution, that's all that bash does. 05:47:41 oh and history 05:47:49 pipes 05:47:54 everything else I never use 05:47:59 readline :P 05:48:02 hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #scheme 05:48:11 eh, pipes not so much either 05:48:20 -!- hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has quit [Client Quit] 05:48:23 hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #scheme 05:51:40 -!- hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has quit [Client Quit] 05:55:32 hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #scheme 06:07:01 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:08:16 error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 06:08:34 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:11:12 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-137-203-90.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Sleep"] 06:12:33 hm 06:12:36 the scsh ebuild is broken! 06:12:56 -!- Elly [n=pyxy@PHYREXIA.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit ["leaving"] 06:14:41 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-2-170.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 06:14:44 Elly [n=pyxy@PHYREXIA.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 06:17:13 cubix [n=cubix@bas21-toronto12-1242359988.region1.highspeedunplugged.bell.ca] has joined #scheme 06:17:42 -!- offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:17:52 offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 06:18:14 -!- hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has quit ["leaving"] 06:23:58 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [No route to host] 06:25:28 Is there any "correct" way of making dispatch tables in scheme? The list approach described in SICP seems very inefficient for large tables. 06:26:38 papermachine [n=ahoman@61.152.106.169] has joined #scheme 06:35:37 hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #scheme 06:37:40 Debolaz: srfi 69 hash-table? 06:49:42 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["strawberries"] 06:49:50 klutometis: Thank you. 06:50:22 xwl [n=user@221.221.146.148] has joined #scheme 06:50:26 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 06:52:44 barney [n=bernhard@p549A07DE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 06:55:01 -!- Jarvellis is now known as xarxanto 07:10:03 -!- hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 07:10:31 tizoc [n=user@r190-135-9-21.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 07:10:46 -!- barney [n=bernhard@p549A07DE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:27:32 -!- tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-31-196.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:45:12 -!- kilimanjaro [n=foo@70.116.95.163] has quit [] 07:52:45 hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #scheme 07:54:34 parodyoflanguage [i=pseudony@mmds-216-19-34-118.twm.az.commspeed.net] has joined #scheme 07:56:30 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 07:58:03 -!- hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has quit ["leaving"] 07:59:54 -!- johnnowak [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 08:06:51 BW^- [i=Miranda@94.191.150.87.bredband.tre.se] has joined #scheme 08:27:33 vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has joined #scheme 08:44:09 A function I'm writing has a number of private functions it calls. These are currently defined like (define (function) ((define private ()) (private)), but is this inefficient? Ie, would this cause the private function to be redefined each and every single time function is called? 08:54:34 -!- xwl [n=user@221.221.146.148] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:02:52 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B054C8C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 09:04:58 yes. 09:05:06 elf: in all scheme implementations? 09:05:10 yes. 09:05:18 i'm not comlpetely sure about that one 09:05:30 i think in gambit, if you have (declare (block)) and procedure inlining on, it's not. 09:05:42 however, debolaz, one other reason to be careful 09:06:07 not to use that design strategy, is that debuggability goes down when doing like that 09:06:18 something that will work in all implementations would be : (define func #f) (letrec ((private (lambda (...) ...)) (set! func (lambda (args) ...)) 09:06:21 ) 09:07:08 block declarations have nothing to do with it, and youd have to specifically define-inline, which is very implementation dependent. 09:11:44 -!- synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:11:55 k 09:13:13 While barebone Scheme was fairly easy to learn, finding out what is considered "correct" design beyond very basic things has been a bit more difficult. 09:13:34 (this is of course assuming that the private procs are independent of the args given to the enclosing proc) 09:13:50 debolaz: it was a good question :) 09:15:00 Dark-Star|away [i=Darkstar@p57B56B12.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 09:15:06 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-129-17.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 09:16:50 -!- Dark-Star|away is now known as Dark-Star 09:18:23 debolaz,elf: isn't this kind of the point with scheme 09:18:32 that it gives you plenty of freedom as regards how to architect 09:19:20 and design 09:19:29 that's kind of the point with DSL:s 09:19:35 BW^-: With scheme, sure. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't give newbies a small indication of what is considered good practice. :) 09:19:42 (give me a potato) is valid code, if you want it to be. :) 09:19:53 debolaz: ah right 09:20:09 debolaz: ok. first off, i don't think you should put functions inside functions like that unless you really need to 09:20:18 I think it will be better to do something like: (define foo (let () (define (privates)) ... (lambda (args) body))) 09:20:21 debolaz: because when they are separate, they tend to be more easy to debug 09:20:37 debolaz: because you can invoke them individually 09:20:48 leppie is correct :) 09:21:25 *leppie* was under the impression letrec* did that, but stands corrected 09:21:35 that depends on the usecase, if debolaz wants to refer to arguments of that particular procedure invocation, then having the defines inside is needed 09:22:03 mine just make them 'private' 09:22:04 better still would be (define foo (letrec ((private (lambda () ...))) (lambda (args ...) ...))) 09:23:38 The best solution of course is to use R6RS and just not export the privates ;p 09:25:17 im pretty sure leppie is joking :) 09:25:29 debolaz: have you read sicp or a similar book? 09:25:31 BW^-: What I'm doing is trying to create a small simple object system as an exercise for learning Scheme. The end user only needs one particular function, but internally some more functions are used. 09:25:55 sicp is a good intro to clean design, in the sense that you are referring to. 09:25:56 ok 09:26:33 debolaz: i'm in a big software project in scheme. we never had any use of java-style objects until now. 09:26:33 elf: I've started reading it. 09:27:05 BW^-: It's just an exercise, not something created out of neccesity. 09:27:10 or, not project. anyhow. 09:27:13 debolaz: k 09:27:37 debolaz: what chapter are you up to? 09:27:49 this is discussed at some length in chapters 2 and 3, iirc. 09:37:32 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:40:43 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #scheme 09:56:43 fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-084-059-039-004.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 10:04:46 -!- xarxanto [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has left #scheme 10:11:14 elf: I'm in chapter 2, but just skipped ahead to chapter 3. 10:13:34 debolaz: sicp's ordering of concepts is quite good. 10:27:40 kraant [n=kraant@CPE-58-161-128-2.nsw.bigpond.net.au] has joined #scheme 10:30:28 elf: re Debolaz's original question -- it should *not* be inefficient. 10:30:46 eli: internal definitions? 10:30:53 Yes. 10:31:26 A mediocre-and-above implementation would lift closures that are independent of locals, and will inline local function calls when possible. 10:31:54 rudybot: eval (define (foo) (lambda () 123)) 10:32:00 rudybot: eval (eq? (foo) (foo)) 10:32:00 eli: ; Value: #t 10:32:17 thats not the same problem. 10:32:32 That's the first part. 10:32:54 rudybot: eval (define (foo2) (define (squid) (lambda () 123)) (squid)) 10:33:05 rudybot: eval (eq? (foo2) (foo2)) 10:33:05 elf: ; Value: #t 10:33:17 rudybot: eval (define (foo2) (define (squid) (lambda () 123)) squid) 10:33:19 rudybot: eval (eq? (foo2) (foo2)) 10:33:19 elf: ; Value: #t 10:33:32 rudybot: eval (define (foo3) (define (squid) (lambda () 123)) squid) 10:33:37 rudybot: eval (eq? (foo3) (foo3)) 10:33:37 elf: ; Value: #t 10:34:54 eli: i accept that it is possible (and fairly trivial) to make it efficient. however, from a generalised-implementation and design standpoint, its not. 10:35:04 it is only efficient if an implementation makes it so. 10:35:43 vs (define foo (let ((squid (lambda () (lambda () 123)))) (lambda () squid)) is guaranteed :) 10:36:18 Paraselene__ [n=None@79-68-228-157.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #scheme 10:36:23 vasa [n=vasa@mm-8-93-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #scheme 10:36:24 That's exactly the kind of bad advice that should not be given. 10:36:39 Premature optimization and all that. 10:37:01 it has nothing to do with premature optimisation. 10:37:22 Or rather doing the work that the compiler should be doing -- it's unavoidable sometimes, but when you get to that you better know the costs well enough to know how much it will pay off. 10:37:38 ak70 [n=ak70@195.158.90.66] has joined #scheme 10:38:05 debolaz asked if the internal definitions would be repeatedly redefined. 10:38:29 the general answer is yes. the implementation specific answer is maybe. 10:39:04 there is nothing in the scheme spec that specifies lifting or any form of optimisation. 10:39:20 I don't know if s/he's a newbie or not, but `redefined' is awfully confusing for most newbies. 10:39:30 s/he is a newbie, on chapter 2 of sicp. 10:39:43 So that must be true 10:39:59 *elf* sighs. 10:39:59 Debolaz: what do you think `redefined' means in that example? 10:40:08 (redefinied was my word, not hirs) 10:40:19 (I know.) 10:40:53 04:44 < Debolaz> A function I'm writing has a number of private functions it calls. These are currently defined like (define (function) ((define private ()) (private)), but is this inefficient? Ie, would this cause the private function to be redefined each and every single time function is called? 10:41:06 (im wrong, s/he used it too) 10:41:36 Well, no answer, but practically *every* newbie that I've seen assumes that the compiler is busy there recompiling the same code over and over again. 10:42:00 which is not a bad assumption at this stage. 10:42:07 That is, their mental model is far from equating `redefined' with just a cons of some code and the "environment". 10:42:41 It's therefore very tempting to develop bad coding habits based on that skewed model, and stick to them later on. 10:43:11 (A disease that is not specific to newbies, of course.) 10:43:12 -!- tizoc is now known as tizoc_ 10:43:54 one would argue that handling context-specific definition cleanly is not a bad coding habit, but thats neither here nor there.) 10:46:11 Well, there's a difference between `cleanly' and efficiently. If you *mean* to use the exact same function object (ie, as a delayed computation in your example), then you *should* move the function out like that. That's clean. 10:46:33 But don't do that if you don't mean to -- that's bogus optmization. 10:46:43 -!- stalker_ [n=caitt3am@uyulala.karlin.mff.cuni.cz] has left #scheme 10:48:38 returning a lambda was probably not the best example :) (define foo (let ((add1 (lambda (x) (+ x 1)))) (lambda (x) (add1 (add1 (* 2 x))))) 10:48:43 may have been a better example 10:49:32 -!- Arelius [n=Arelius@netblock-68-183-230-106.dslextreme.com] has quit [" Try HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-"] 10:49:33 Same deal. The semantic level (what you mean) should always have higher priority than the execution level (how it will be executed/optimized). 10:50:26 Dump that principle, and it won't take long to find yourself "in a world of C", as said in full metal jacket. 10:50:32 the semantic level of both are equivalent, imho :) 10:51:38 *Your* semantic level (the programmer's) vs the machine's. 10:52:08 the let block is, imho, a clearer indication of private independent functionality than internal definition. 10:53:04 this is a style argument, though, now. 10:55:49 The only independence indication that you get is the fact that it's independent from the main function's arguments. "Private" is very clear anyway. So, the kind of indepence that is implicitly declared is mostly important to people who want to be sure that there is no stuff to close over, and that means that you're doing a compiler's job. 10:56:07 assuming its compiled. 10:56:44 also assuming that youre only going to use the code in one implementation and only as compiled in that implementation. 10:57:36 As far as how much you should care, compiled = interpreted. 10:59:09 Same goes for implementations -- expecting decent performance is a good thing, not crippling your code by tunning it for the performance of one implementation is a good thing. 10:59:27 Otherwise you end up with all kinds of silly bits of code. 10:59:52 (define foo (let ((+ +) (- -) ...) (lambda (x) ...blah...))) 11:02:47 one would argue that lifting is not necessarily a reasonable expectation, and that writing code that will behave the same regardless of implementation optimisations is good. 11:15:29 -!- papermachine [n=ahoman@61.152.106.169] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:28:26 -!- p1dzkl [i=p1dzkl@2001:470:1f14:19c:0:0:0:2] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 11:28:40 p1dzkl [i=p1dzkl@2001:470:1f14:19c:0:0:0:2] has joined #scheme 11:34:46 -!- tizoc_ is now known as tizoc 11:54:39 you guys have very confusing nicknames 12:04:50 ? 12:05:10 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 12:07:25 elf: i think it just comes down to subtle differences in the semantics, ie capturing the environment everytime vs just once 12:09:24 xerox [n=xerox@unaffiliated/xerox] has joined #scheme 12:09:36 replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 12:09:39 tizoc_ 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#scheme 15:17:07 duncanm [n=duncan@a-chinaman.com] has joined #scheme 15:17:30 -!- kraant [n=kraant@CPE-58-161-128-2.nsw.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:27:20 -!- pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 15:35:52 pixel5 [n=pixel@194.126.158.106] has joined #scheme 15:41:39 -!- error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:43:12 -!- tripwyre [n=tripwyre@117.193.166.2] has quit [] 15:47:19 eli: I wonder if #:lock would be an improvement over #:holder. Pro: a savings of two!! whole characters; also, `#:lock box' is cute. Contra: it would suggest that the object is fixed in memory, when in fact only the jitted code is fixed (and that only because 3m object relocation isn't going to try to relocate the code). Though maybe #:lock /would/ be better as a guarantee that, should mzscheme ever relocate code as well, /this/ code 15:47:19 wouldn't be reloc'd. 15:47:45 replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 15:54:02 -!- sonderma` [n=user@58-226-dsl.kielnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:54:12 sonderma` [n=user@173-217-dsl.kielnet.net] has joined #scheme 15:59:21 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 16:00:22 -!- pixel5 [n=pixel@194.126.158.106] has quit ["bbl"] 16:01:05 -!- parodyoflanguage [i=pseudony@mmds-216-19-34-118.twm.az.commspeed.net] has quit [] 16:04:47 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:12:18 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 16:25:44 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 16:25:53 -!- Cale [n=Cale@CPE001c10c70239-CM000e5cdd834a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:26:22 Cale [n=Cale@CPE001c10c70239-CM000e5cdd834a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 16:30:51 -!- kraant_ [n=kraant@CPE-58-161-128-2.nsw.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:32:06 npe [n=npe@66.112.249.148] has joined #scheme 16:37:47 hmmm 16:38:45 -!- Kinks [n=Kinks@uc087.housing.umanitoba.ca] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:38:58 Kinks [n=Kinks@uc087.housing.umanitoba.ca] has joined #scheme 16:40:11 -!- asorbus [n=shawn930@pinball.ccs.neu.edu] has left #scheme 16:40:11 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-2-170.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 16:41:00 besiria [n=user@ppp083212084244.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #scheme 16:42:13 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-129-17.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 16:46:08 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has joined #scheme 16:51:09 mld [n=user@cekyrij.olf.sgsnet.se] has joined #scheme 16:53:58 -!- Daemmerung [n=goetter@64.146.161.228] has quit ["Smoove out."] 16:54:23 Daemmerung [n=goetter@64.146.161.228] has joined #scheme 16:57:16 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 16:57:24 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-69-143-195-98.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 16:59:30 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-69-143-195-98.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:00:32 -!- rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:05:52 Still found no way of encforcing the reload of a module (in mzscheme). 17:06:25 I don't if plt scheme can do that yet 17:06:30 don't know 17:06:42 Afaics this is quite a showstopper for interactive development with modules. 17:06:50 for sure 17:07:13 The docs say: 17:07:18 Along the same lines, re-declaration of a module is not generally allowed. Indeed, for file-based modules, simply changing the file does not lead to a re-declaration, because file-based modules are loaded on demand, and the previously loaded declarations satisfy future requests. It is possible to use Schemes reflection support to re-declare a module, however, and non-file modules can be re-declared in the REPL; in such cases, th 17:07:18 e redeclaration may fail if it involves the re-definition of a previously immutable binding. 17:07:45 So it should be possible. 17:07:56 But they do not say how. 17:08:25 sonderma`: Did you check the page I referred you to? 17:08:30 I do not know what they mean with "non-file module" 17:08:42 yes. It does not really help. But thanks. 17:08:45 sonderma`: A non-file module is one that you just evaluate on the repl. 17:09:05 You mean something I typed in? 17:09:07 sonderma`: Please check it again, and see the file that it points to. It does exactly what you want, among other things. 17:09:28 Do you mean "enter!" 17:09:43 `enter!' is part of the PLT distribution, and it does that, yes. 17:10:19 But I do not want to change the interactive context, just reload the module. 17:10:34 Something like "require-anyway" or so. 17:11:03 You can use (enter #f) to leave the module context. 17:11:16 In any case, I later pointed at a mailing list post that describes an "interactive hack" I have that makes the mzscheme repl have additional commands -- one of them is `require-reloadable'. 17:11:35 Ah, that sounds better. 17:11:56 Just replace require by require-reloadable? 17:12:03 Like I said -- just check that post again, and look at the code. 17:12:08 http://list.cs.brown.edu/pipermail/plt-scheme/2008-June/025319.html 17:12:20 Thanks, I will do that. 17:12:39 Well, it's a toplevel command -- you type ,require-reloadable . 17:12:47 umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has joined #scheme 17:12:57 You cannot (and shold not) use it inside a module, for example. 17:13:03 Normally I don't type commas to the repl. 17:13:11 In a loaded file? 17:13:17 what about that? 17:13:22 This is why they are a good hook. (commas) 17:13:33 You should try to avoid `load' at almost all costs. 17:13:44 Ok, I'll try something. Give me a break. 17:14:28 "Give me a break?" I'm just trying to help you. Feel free to ignore me, if that's too stressful for you. 17:14:43 Sorry, English not my native language. 17:14:56 I mean, give me some time. 17:15:04 pardon. 17:15:11 No problems. Just make sure you browse through the guides to see how to work well with the module system. 17:15:42 Ok. Thanks again. 17:16:26 The problem with `load' is that it basically reads a contents of a file and `eval's it. There are many benefits that you will be missing if you do that (some optimizations will not work, worse error checking), and some additional problems that you can run into (if you try to redefine things, for example). 17:16:30 Daemmerung: ping 17:16:33 sonderma`: ("Give me a break" = "Lasse mich in Ruhe") 17:16:43 eli: you pang? 17:16:53 Oh, thank you for the clarification... 17:17:21 bNike [n=bNike@84-72-167-73.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #scheme 17:18:04 hello ... 17:18:10 Daemmerung: #:lock is not really great because there's a number of things that you might think it locks. I did consider #:lock-callback though, before I switched to #:hold-callback... 17:18:13 is there any one to chat with.... 17:18:17 eli: Yes, I think I understand this. 17:18:31 hay eli ... 17:18:42 bNike: good morning. 17:18:58 hay its good evening ....isnt it.. 17:19:07 hay sonderma... 17:19:07 It's always morning somewhere. 17:19:14 bNike: depends on where you are in the world :) 17:19:14 eli: inside a _fun I can think of only one thing that it locks. But since it doesn't really "lock" in the confound-a-compacting-collector sense, maybe not. 17:19:17 it's also five o'clock somewhere 17:19:24 ya ...thats true... 17:19:32 so where are u from eli... 17:19:50 sonderma`: In case it wasn't clear, feel free to ask question about organizing code, if you think that modules are not working like you want them to. 17:20:05 bNike: Massachusetts, previously Israel. 17:20:39 Daemmerung: Well, the extensibility of `_fun' means that you can lock anything too. 17:20:42 oh ...thats great...good morning to you then...!!! 17:20:45 brb 17:21:58 so is there anyone here from switzerland... 17:22:13 *offby1* looks at his feet 17:22:40 -!- bNike [n=bNike@84-72-167-73.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit ["http://irc2go.com/"] 17:22:45 yhara [n=yhara@84.215.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 17:26:44 (How the dickens does somebody mistake #scheme as a "chat room?" Does this happen in #lisp?) 17:31:01 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [] 17:32:41 maybe 'scheme' means something 'special' in switzerlandish... how about #:pin in stead of #:lock? 17:34:28 Daemmerung: what do you mean, #scheme isn't a "caht room"? 17:34:30 chat 17:34:36 what else do I do here, e.g. 17:35:12 Hm, I can say ,require-reloadable "autoclose.scm" in the repl. 17:35:23 So far, so good. 17:35:46 But I cannot say (require-reloadable "autoclose.scm"). 17:35:52 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212084244.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:35:54 Or any other name, 17:36:05 for the the module. 17:36:20 I do not understand the ,-syntax 17:36:49 offby1: you're doing far more... you are chitchatting. 17:36:56 offby1: as the author of rudybot, you have certain rights and responsibilities hereabouts. 17:37:27 So I cannot use require-reloadable in a loaded file. 17:37:28 rudybot: source 17:37:29 Daemmerung: http://rudybot.ath.cx:1234 17:38:15 Which I intended. 17:40:18 This means, every time I change something in a module source file, I have to announce that change to the system with ,require-reloadable "file.scm". 17:42:00 Would prefer: (loop change-source run-program goto loop) 17:43:11 Does someone know how to unwind the comma-syntax? 17:43:19 sonderma`: ,-syntax is illigal scheme syntax that's why it's used to call internal implementation mechanisms. 17:44:00 Yes, I feared that. But I don't feel that this a real argument. 17:45:28 read the source code implementing this ,require-reloadable, then, and pump-up your wizardry ;) 17:47:25 Yeah... but I feel I would prefer to get my programming finished, not hack implementations. 17:48:48 -!- Bascule is now known as bascule 17:49:40 i know the feeling. 17:52:02 -!- sonderma` is now known as sondermann 17:55:07 fnord123 [n=fnord@78-105-27-133.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 17:56:37 -!- synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:58:48 hi all. Does anyone know of any sgml parsers for various schemes? I don't see anything on eggs unlimited, snowfort or planet. 17:59:24 yow 18:02:21 -!- tizoc_ is now known as tizoc 18:03:44 Had a look into Eli's sources (http://barzilay.org/misc/interactive.ss). Seems we're getting nearer. Something like: 18:03:46 (compile-enforce-module-constants #f) 18:03:46 (require "file.scm") 18:03:46 (compile-enforce-module-constants #t) 18:03:52 seems to do the trick. 18:04:26 Now this obviously needs to be wrapped up in a special form. 18:04:46 Just hope it can be done. 18:05:23 arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-137-203-90.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 18:12:00 hey guys, what use of Scheme in commercial services and software are you aware of? 18:12:04 -!- ricky [n=ricky@fedora/ricky] has quit [Client Quit] 18:12:49 sondermann: there are two things. `compile-enforce-module-constants' makes it possible to redefine stuff, but the module system will not reload the code still. 18:13:27 So you can use that only if all your modules are defined in a file that you `load'. (Which is still a bad idea.) 18:14:10 Daemmerung: so I was about to say that I'm about to commit the change. 18:14:53 Hm, I'd be willing to do that as long as a module isn't stable. 18:15:12 Daemmerung: any opinion on sladegen's idea (#:pin)? (I'm used to using that name as a `process input' binding usually -- as in `pout pin perr'.) 18:15:25 aack [n=user@s559195f7.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #scheme 18:15:51 sondermann: The usual work cycle is to use DrScheme, which will reload everything every time you click "run". 18:15:52 BW^-, what do you mean commercial services and software? 18:16:32 sondermann: With mzscheme and my hack, you can just use ,rr for a single file that requires all the other modules, and all of them should be reloaded when there are changes. 18:16:36 arcfide: backend software deployments, client software, other ways where scheme filled a more major purpose in a profane setting 18:16:46 profane setting? 18:17:22 BW^-, Are you saying, used in the business world outside of academic universities or pedagogical applications? 18:18:46 i mean, quite anywhere where scheme was used to make money. 18:18:56 eli: it doesn't pin any more than it locks. How about #:keep? 18:19:08 BW^-, my contract programming is/was done in Scheme. 18:19:09 or, perhaps i should reformulate myself. 18:19:24 Chez Scheme is used commercially in some large companies. 18:19:33 i may be interested in having input to pass investors on Scheme . 18:19:36 Daemmerung: ooh, cute. 18:19:44 Lisp was used as a backend for some large e-commerce sites. 18:20:03 BW, I know plenty of work but it's covered by NDAs 18:20:10 Daemmerung: ok, I'll commit it with #:keep now. After I finish the grep-n-replace. 18:20:18 BW^-, a lot of work is hidden. 18:20:23 eli: Bitchin. 18:20:24 there's examples of Python, Java and RoR deployments of major backend services, though scheme yet not 18:20:45 BW^-: klutometis and I are both scheming for cash-monee. 18:20:45 fnord123,arcfide: is there anything more you can tell about this? 18:21:08 ive seen scheme used mainly as glue between frameworks 18:21:12 BW^-: in my case, it's working because I'm writing demo code. 18:21:27 ..presuming it answers my question.. 18:21:45 BW^-, plenty of companies write proprietary in house software that needs to be developed and used rapidly, but that they don't want shared with the rest of the world. 18:21:51 (I.e., my client has no need to maintain or otherwise make excuses for my output, once it's done.) 18:22:59 as for input to investors, i preliminarily thing dr. Feeley, and the guys behind QPX, may be interesting. 18:23:43 BW^-, there is also www.paulgraham.com/paulgraham/avg.html 18:24:13 arcfide: know 18:24:56 What are you trying to get? You probably won't find a "Hey, company X did this in Scheme and made this much money because of it, and here is the software they built." 18:25:36 BW^-, if you want to sell investors on an idea, better to sell them on the product, rather than the language. 18:25:44 That's true in any case. 18:25:49 every now and again someone on usenet will mention they used scheme (or still currently using scheme) at their job 18:27:23 eli: when you say " should be 18:27:30 reloaded when there are changes .." 18:27:58 do you mean (require ..) looks for the file time stamp? 18:28:20 or does it reload the module in any case? 18:28:47 I tried: (define-syntax require-anyway 18:28:47 (syntax-rules () 18:28:48 ((require-anyway spec ...) 18:28:48 (let ((o (compile-enforce-module-constants))) 18:28:48 (compile-enforce-module-constants #f) 18:28:48 (require spec ...) 18:28:50 (compile-enforce-module-constants o))))) 18:28:56 *offby1* uses scheme to throw his dentures at mbishop 18:29:11 *leppie* pays offby1 18:29:14 there :) 18:29:19 *mbishop* uses scheme to protect himself from flying dentures 18:29:20 but it says: stdin::1953: require: not at module level or top level in: (require "file.scm") 18:29:35 sondermann: no, I mean that ,rr (the `require-reloadable' hack) should arrange things so that all modules are reloaded transitively. 18:29:49 yes, ok. 18:30:07 You cannot put `require' inside a `let'. It must be at the top level. 18:30:09 BW^-: I don't pitch my use of shell scripts to anyone. but I use them often. 18:30:19 Yes, I see. But what now? 18:31:02 -!- yhara [n=yhara@84.215.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 18:31:29 Use a global for the old value of compile-enforce-module-constants? 18:32:18 sondermann: yes, that will work. I still don't know what you're trying to do, but it definitely doesn't sound right. 18:32:27 Aha! 18:33:14 The gist of it is: (loop change-source run-program goto loop) 18:33:24 sondermann: One thing is that you talked about `load' and you talked about `require' -- they work in pretty different ways, and mixing them is going to be messy. (More than that: using `load' is going to be messy.) 18:33:58 I don't know what that gist means in precise enough terms. 18:34:10 Put some transient code into a file, load that. Otherwise put things into modules. 18:34:24 The idea. The workflow. 18:34:43 Does `change-source' mean that you edit the files? Does `run-program' mean that you run mzscheme over the input? If so, then you shouldn't have any problem. 18:35:32 yes to the first part. 18:36:03 as to the second part, I'd like to run the program from emacs + cmuscheme.el 18:36:47 So -- the easiest solution is to kill the buffer and run it again. 18:37:34 Yes, I had to do that. 18:37:41 But that's no fun. 18:38:43 If you really don't want to kill the process, then write your code in modules. Use a `main' module that requires everything you need, and use (enter! "main.ss") to go inside the module as well as for reloading it. 18:39:15 Except for the enter! this would be it, yes. 18:39:46 I think, for now I will go with require-anyway. 18:39:59 Why "except for the enter!"? 18:40:48 Because that does something different, if I understand you correctly. What does it do more? 18:42:21 First, I have to type it interactively. Second, it changes the context. Third, I have to type somethin to get out of that. 18:43:05 What do you think is wrong with loop: change-source run-program goto loop? 18:43:17 You have to do *something* interactively anyway. You can have Emacs send the string to the process. 18:43:35 Ah, this sounds like something. 18:43:46 As for the context, I suggested requiring everything you need into a `main' module and work *inside* that context. 18:44:11 It'll be similar to a repl for most of what you need. (Assuming you avoid `load'.) 18:44:12 ok. I will try that also. 18:46:15 About having emacs send the string to the process: could you elaborate a bit on that? Or give some idea? 18:47:30 emac's compile command? 18:48:35 Just look at the Emacs source for the command that sends a string for evaluation and use that. (I can't help you much without reading the docs because I don't use the inferior process thing for scheme -- I just run a shell.) 18:49:28 Ok, thanks for the hint. We'll see. 18:50:16 your patience very much appreciated! 18:53:13 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:54:35 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 18:54:38 MONODA_ [n=danyhadd@92.62.170.9] has joined #scheme 18:55:16 i need help installing scheme on opensuse 11, can someone give me a a download link? 18:56:05 plt-scheme.org 18:56:24 thaks 18:56:38 can you build it from source? 18:56:43 I mean you need the development headers and whatnot 18:56:55 i guess I can manage 18:57:05 it shouldnt be too hard right? 18:57:12 its pretty easy 18:57:30 cool 18:57:39 are plt-scheme and scheme the same? 18:57:55 plt-scheme is an implementation of the Scheme language 18:58:23 scheme has been standardized in various revisions R1RS, R2RS, ..., upto R6RS most recently 18:58:31 most schemes implement R5RS today 18:58:42 oh yeah i forgot about that, thanks 18:59:01 http://schemers.org/ there is more information about scheme in general 18:59:16 thanks 18:59:43 can i use vim to edit the files and run them using bash rather than using an IDE? 18:59:59 yes, thats what I do 19:00:07 awesome :D 19:00:15 specifically with plt-scheme, once you build it you will have mzscheme and drscheme. mzscheme is the command line version. drscheme is the ide 19:00:59 alright, ill look into it 19:01:17 cant wait to learn a new language, im tired of python 19:01:52 hehe, what other languages do you know? 19:02:28 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:02:51 Try C++ -- it's simply amazing. Nothing short of it. Its so refreshing when i get to code in it. 19:03:14 its like digging a hole with a toothpick. but a *really* strong toothpick 19:03:21 python only, but i have played with C and pascal a few years ago 19:03:26 XD 19:04:04 my plan is: Python, Lisp, C, Java, Ruby, C++ 19:04:13 kazzmir_: you forgot that it's a FAST toothpick. (But I liked your previous analogy better.) 19:04:36 MONODA_, im a fan of ruby 19:04:44 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 19:05:06 i prefer to choose different language styles 19:05:38 *arcfide* tries to resist commenting. 19:06:15 *eli* throws an exception at kazzmir_ 19:06:15 *Daemmerung* can write LOLCODE programs in any language. 19:06:24 emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 19:06:38 abort! 19:07:59 ricky [n=ricky@fedora/ricky] has joined #scheme 19:09:58 *eli* promises to handle the exception as soon as kazzmir_ gets to MA, using excessive force 19:10:56 thx 19:11:45 Daemmerung: great success. 19:11:46 does it matter which scheme I learn? 19:12:52 all schemes were created equal, but some are more equal than others 19:13:14 mhm... food for thought 19:13:15 :P 19:13:29 i dunno.. I use plt its pretty good. you can try others if you want to 19:13:53 have you checked out any others? 19:14:26 i've toyed around with chez, larceny, gambit, and kawa 19:14:39 and chicken 19:15:20 eli: for make benefit glorious channel of #scheme. 19:16:53 MONODA_: Last I knew, most people in here use scheme48. PLT Scheme is popular as well. I go between plt and bigloo depending on how much parsing I need to do (I love bigloo's parsing library) 19:22:30 Dark-Star [n=michael@p57B56B12.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 19:23:59 -!- Dark-Star [n=michael@p57B56B12.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 19:25:06 MONODA_: MIT Scheme also sees use here, as does Chez, CHicken, and Gambit. 19:25:16 MONODA_: I think the IronScheme developer hangs out here sometimes, too. 19:28:15 good morning #scheme! 19:28:41 and goodbye, as i am off to babysit. :) anyone in the market for 2d children, please contact me. 19:31:07 Dark-Star|away [i=Darkstar@p57B5644F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 19:34:16 synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has joined #scheme 19:38:58 monoda_: one rich aspect of Scheme is that there are multiple very good implementations. 19:40:29 monoda_: in terms of language, they are all r5rs or r6rs or r4rs compliant. in addition to this there's a number of design aspects that differentiate them. 19:41:01 i think someone should make a page on Wikipedia that describes the unique qualities about the different Scheme implementations 19:41:18 -!- umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has quit [] 19:41:28 Comparison of Scheme implementations 19:42:09 that addresses performance, module systems, libraries, common use, design thoughts, interpreted/compiled/incremental compilation,e tc 19:42:13 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:43:50 rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 19:44:23 ..background, when it was first released 19:44:35 OS support 19:44:36 starting point -- http://community.schemewiki.org/?scheme-faq-standards#implementations 19:45:07 right but that page helps you nothing in real navigation 19:45:12 you need to do all the difficult work yourself 19:45:33 which is to grasp what really signifies them, and which one is for you 19:46:10 also http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.scheme/msg/9535c7c14fbc1415 (very old) 19:46:29 as i see it, the threshold to get into Scheming is Very hgih 19:46:30 high 19:46:50 i put a link to an easy to read book on Wikipedia. :-) 19:46:55 so now it's a little bit easier. 19:47:01 though nobody still explains what Scheme impl to get 19:47:58 Keith_M_ [n=keith@oit-134-195.OIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 19:48:03 -!- Keith_M_ [n=keith@oit-134-195.OIT.EDU] has left #scheme 19:48:19 Explaining which Scheme impl to get is like explaining which religion to follow. Everybody's going to have their own opinion, and everybody other than me is Wrong. 19:49:05 well 19:49:14 there's some objective stuff to it 19:49:23 such as, SISC is suitable for deep Java integration. 19:49:23 -!- MONODA_ [n=danyhadd@92.62.170.9] has left #scheme 19:49:36 o well 19:49:38 Ikarus and Chez have incremental compilation. 19:49:49 tinyscheme was implemeneted to give a tiny binary. 19:49:50 etc. 19:50:09 Gambit and Chicken currently use C or C++ for intermediary language 19:50:30 erm, s/he left ;p 19:56:35 BW^-: That's a great idea with the wikipage. 19:56:55 I know I'd love to read one, 'cause this whole picking a scheme implementation is kinda scary :) 19:57:23 kilimanjaro [n=foo@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 20:00:00 right 20:00:02 and there is more thats not even on that list 20:00:12 i spent days researching myself 20:01:15 That's my lil' problem here. I don't *want* to spend days doing research. 20:01:30 I want a suitable scheme, and to learn how to abuse the bugger :) 20:02:05 maybe thats why there are so many scheme's, they give up and write one themselves :) 20:03:29 I wonder how to examine plt events more closely... they just show up as # currently. 20:05:16 I really just want two things. Portability and unicode support. But I can't be bothered to look through all the sites :) 20:05:34 Still it's baffling that unicode is not in some standard. >< 20:06:05 PLT is portable, in that your PLT code works fine on *nix, OS X, and Windows; it includes pretty good Unicode support (perhaps as good as any other Scheme) 20:06:38 plt lets me use  :3 20:06:54 offby1: That's great, apart from the "pretty good" part :) 20:07:04 it might be as good as you want; who knows. 20:07:12 Maybe. 20:07:28 I was scared by plt 'cause I installed it and it fired up some GUI thing. 20:07:34 Maybe I did something wrong :) 20:07:44 schme: define `portability'. 20:08:08 I didn't get any GUI thing. Had to run drscheme to find that. 20:08:26 schme: yeah, PLT include "mzscheme", a perfectly non-GUI repl and compiler 20:08:28 Daemmerung: So code I wrote runs on the more popular unices, OS X and win32. Preferably openvms too. 20:08:31 give it another try 20:08:37 ...which consequently ate all my memory like an elephant on crack 20:08:48 offby1: Oh ok. I'll look that up. 20:08:51 rudybot: eval (banner) 20:08:51 offby1: ; Value: "Welcome to MzScheme v4.1 [3m], Copyright (c) 2004-2008 PLT Scheme Inc.\n" 20:08:54 schme: I know of no Scheme supporting OpenVMS. 20:08:56 *offby1* whistles innocently 20:09:15 Daemmerung: Well that is why it is in the preferably section :) 20:09:27 PLT otherwise has a very good Windows x X x11 "OS X" story. 20:09:48 That's great. 20:09:59 xXx lol it's alcoholic 20:10:03 But any of the Scheme-to-C solutions will offer that as well, if you dn't care about GUI. 20:10:39 I only care about GUI when I actually develope GUI apps :) 20:11:03 But that is great news. 20:11:03 DO your GUI apps need to be "portable" (yeah, scare quotes, sorry)? 20:11:15 Well yes. 20:11:22 -!- offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit ["outta here"] 20:11:51 Then PLT is the only existing solution. There is a promised Scheme atop Gambit that may be suitable someday, but it's been vapor for a while.... 20:12:11 From my just now reading of R6RS I interpret it as character needs to be unicode characters. That's great. 20:12:27 I was recommended some jazz thing. 20:12:27 hmm. 20:12:44 that Jazz thing is the thing atop Gambit to which I allude. 20:12:53 It doesn't have many miles on it. 20:12:59 Ok. 20:13:01 Or kilometres, even. 20:13:09 Aren't there any good gtk bindings or so though? 20:13:36 I thought you wanted portable. Non-native widgets suck. 20:14:04 (not to be opinionated or anything) 20:14:08 Do they? 20:14:17 They do. They are the suckiest. 20:14:26 *synx* kind of likes how gtk looks the same everywhere. Screenshots and such... 20:15:00 Terminals look the same everywhere! *runs* 20:15:04 One questions whether there should be native widgets at all. Kind of the wrong task for an operating system if you ask me. 20:15:27 or in offby1's case, true teletype terminal paper! 20:15:36 But I dunno, aside from the cosmetic differences, not much difference between gtk and native... 20:16:05 *synx* shows mbishop an xterm with a white background! 20:16:07 Cosmetic differences matter, as do mouse-tracking differences, window activation differences, .... 20:16:29 Daemmerung: gtk is portable enough, no? 20:16:37 the apps run on windows, os x and most unices. 20:16:40 sounds good to me. 20:16:42 gtk doesn't do much in terms of window activation. Defers to the window manager for that. 20:17:42 I write desktop applications. Look and feel matters to me very much - it is key to the user experience. For others, maybe not so much. 20:18:49 I've had problems with gtk... not their widgets though, but their frequent and timely updates. 3rd party programs might not be so timely to update, requiring multiple versions of GTK at one time. 20:19:30 Maj gad. What have I started. 20:19:36 So gtk, Squeak, and most other cross-platform solutions are out. Even cross-platform solutions such as whatever abortion Apple used to put iTunes on Windows doesn't satisfy me. Talk about ugly. (And I'm sure that plenty of bad examples in the other direction apply.) 20:19:49 sorry I'll shut up now. x) 20:20:00 Daemmerung: Sounds like you want web apps :) 20:20:34 eww web apps 20:20:39 euuuwwww. 20:21:02 Daemmerung: you have a good sense for things, I believe. 20:22:13 *Debolaz* makes web apps for a living. 20:22:23 But all the puff-and-fluffery has value. What is `portability'? What do you want? It's hard to answer without getting into religion. In the end, most of the Schemes have defined some local optimum that satisfies a particular set of reqs -- you have to decide whose optima best match yours. 20:22:23 That sounds horrible. 20:23:02 Ya. with portability I want my code to run on different systems. Preferably with some option of GUI, which the exact look of does not matter to me ;) 20:23:13 But I see the concern there with the looks. 20:23:41 emma: I am sufficiently elderly to be set in my opinions. 20:23:50 *Daemmerung* grumbles into his tea 20:24:23 tea! 20:24:25 good idea. 20:24:36 hehehe 20:24:51 *schme* just bought an excellent pu-erh. 20:29:36 Wah I cannot type [ in drscheme 20:30:37 (with-handlers ([exn:fail? 42]) ...) cannot be typed ;_; 20:31:40 ctrl+[ 20:31:59 oh, thankee ^_^ 20:39:53 vasa [n=vasa@mm-8-93-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #scheme 20:52:38 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-24.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 20:59:24 lelf [n=Lelf@217.118.90.120] has joined #scheme 21:03:05 error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 21:04:39 -!- lelf [n=Lelf@217.118.90.120] has quit ["jmIrc destroyed by the OS"] 21:06:29 schme: Pu-er! Hm, I like Puers that are good. 21:16:57 schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-230-179.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 21:17:14 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-24.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:20:17 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:21:07 I feel frustrated. Cannot get the module recompilation working. load/use-compiled seems to recompile the module unconditionally, but the result is discarded. For today I give up. Will try Eli's comma-syntax-thingy tomorrow. Good night everybody. 21:21:37 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:23:30 Newbie question: Say I have a list, bar, and want to use it as the arguments for a lambda, foo, how would I do this? (Ie, so the lambda sees four arguments 1 2 3 4, not a single argument (1 2 3 4). 21:23:42 eyeris [n=dvogel@pool-96-230-228-128.mdsnwi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 21:23:54 Debolaz: (apply foo bar) 21:24:09 Daemmerung: Thank you. 21:24:18 I realize it's probably a dumb question, but I'm still in the learning process. :) 21:24:35 You asked the question well. 21:26:35 Why does SCM choke on this? It just ends abruptly with an error: http://pastebin.com/m3df47dfd 21:26:43 without* 21:27:44 eyeris: You define a function called "range" but never invoke it. So the program correctly (silently) defines range, and then exits. 21:28:00 Might want to put a (range 0 10 1) at the end there :) 21:28:15 synx: it chokes on the invocation. I invoke it as (display (range 1 5 1)) 21:28:34 Oh, okay. 21:28:35 eyeris: check your `if' statement 21:28:51 This is why I use my displayz function :p at least it'd show a % that way 21:29:12 Daemmerung Ah, it should be (if ((>= ..., right? 21:29:25 No. 21:29:36 That if statement shouldn't even compile... it has no else clause. 21:30:00 synx: it's standard Scheme. PLT's insistence on two arms is nonstandard (though very helpful IMO). 21:30:11 elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has joined #scheme 21:30:31 Ohh okay my bad. What does standard Scheme evaluate an if clause to, if it has no else but the test clause fails? 21:30:43 # or the like I'd expect. 21:31:08 It evals to the miracle called "not defined in the spec." 21:31:28 It could eval to 42, or a bitmap of your dear mother. 21:32:15 I got it now. Thanks guys. 21:32:26 ehe 21:32:34 eyeris: shame on SCM for such an unhelpful OOM diagnostic. 21:33:33 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:34:23 So, in (sync) [in plt], a network event that fails will raise an exception. sync takes multiple events though, so how to determine which one is the offending event? 21:35:11 Handle the exception, return a value, check for that value returned by sync. 21:35:53 Or set a variable local to some enclosing state. 21:35:57 -!- eyeris [n=dvogel@pool-96-230-228-128.mdsnwi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["BitchX: try our Windows 95/98 and Windows NT 4 flavors too!"] 21:36:00 I'm riffing here. Never used it myself. 21:38:22 Oh okay. Doesn't really work sadly because the handler function is invoked after the exception is raised. What's happening is a connection closes pending a write, and simply waiting on that event raises the exception...but for which connection? 21:38:45 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:39:18 Maybe wrapping the whole event in an exception handler... 21:40:11 ah, or maybe I could be smart and read the chapter on Breaks. 21:43:23 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 21:47:03 AH got it 21:47:38 I'll use the port as the event, and not use the write-bytes-avail-evt thing, but just an exception handled write-bytes-avail when the event is triggered. 21:52:27 ...aaaand I'm off. Happy trails, #scheme. 21:52:29 -!- Daemmerung [n=goetter@64.146.161.228] has quit ["Smoove out."] 21:58:05 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-8-93-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 22:06:33 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-95-99.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:10:55 -!- replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:14:53 vasa [n=vasa@mm-8-93-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #scheme 22:15:06 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-8-93-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:15:58 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:22:13 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-129-17.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:28:30 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 22:28:59 borism [n=boris@195-50-199-214-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 22:35:20 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195-50-200-75-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:36:14 mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 22:44:17 crathman [n=chatzill@cpe-24-175-84-224.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 22:45:27 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:46:32 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:52:51 is anyone writing a scheme implementation comparison page for wikipedia ? 22:53:01 araujo_ [n=araujo@190.37.191.69] has joined #scheme 22:53:58 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 22:54:11 -!- araujo_ [n=araujo@190.37.191.69] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:54:24 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 23:01:27 -!- GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-235-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit ["in search of Oscar ..."] 23:05:00 -!- kilimanjaro [n=foo@70.116.95.163] has quit [] 23:08:56 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B054C8C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:32:02 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:36:41 jonrafkind [n=jon@c-67-186-250-110.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:41:01 BW^-, a Scheme implementation comparison page might be very difficult, and I don't really find the comparison pages on Wikipedia to be very useful. 23:41:20 If you can do it well, and it is useful, then have at it. :-) 23:42:30 re commercial use 23:42:38 then let's do that. 23:42:44 BW^-, eh? 23:43:03 ? 23:43:33 BW^-: that "re commercial use" was not directed at me, was it? 23:45:48 we were some who discussed use of scheme in a business setting 2hrs ago 23:46:09 Right, I recall that. 23:52:28 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-95-99.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:52:53 any idea of how to parse ISO 8601 dates? 23:53:03 i would appreciate to be able to derive day of year values 23:53:12 SRFI19 doesn't allow that in string->date. 23:53:43 apparently MIT scheme has a date parser capable of parsing ISO 8601 strings, though that falls back on an internal parsing language that's only available for MIT 23:56:00 grettke [n=grant@CPE-65-31-132-59.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 23:56:10 Hi folks. 23:56:40 sup 23:56:48 Hey. 23:56:55 Question 23:56:56 grettke, hey, how's it going? 23:57:16 In R6RS, Richard Kelsey, William Clinger, Jonathan Rees are listed as editors of R5RS. Ok, that is true, but is that to say that they are also contributors to R6RS? 23:58:04 Hey arcfide 23:58:26 I don't know how much everyone contributed, but didn't some of them resign as editors through the process? 23:58:44 arcfide: by what reason? 23:59:45 Oh I see, there is a comp.lang.post by Will Clinger