00:04:09 cdehaan [n=Cody@cpe-74-74-153-129.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 00:04:23 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 00:05:02 Hello! I am attempting to use a pre-made... program?... in scheme (part of an assignment). It works fine using R5RS on DrScheme v. 3.x, but on v4.x on my Mac using R5RS as well, it just throws a bunch of errors. 00:05:04 Any suggestions? 00:05:41 Are you using SET-CAR! or SET-CDR! ? 00:05:56 ... or rather, what are the errors? 00:05:59 In the code, or in what I type? 00:06:02 Hold on, I'll grab them. 00:06:34 procedure meval: expects 2 arguments, given 1: (or #f) 00:07:10 MEVAL isn't R5RS 00:07:26 Are you using EVAL? 00:08:15 Same file, same input, works fine on the 3.x machine on Linux. 00:08:15 There are two eval statements 00:09:27 And are you passing them two arguments? 00:11:31 (eval (cons 'or 00:11:31 (map my-gen-ep? (cdr symbol-productions))))) 00:11:40 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:12:01 Make it (eval (scheme-report-environment 5)) 00:12:25 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 00:12:49 I'm just not sure why this would work fine in one Scheme and not another 00:13:35 Presumably a bugfix. It wasn't _supposed_ to work before. EVAL requires two arguments. 00:13:43 aah 00:14:39 -!- paf_ [n=paf@bas4-montreal28-1279780311.dsl.bell.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:14:56 Well, that answers that... thanks for your help :) 00:15:33 newegg.ca just opened 00:15:41 -!- cdehaan [n=Cody@cpe-74-74-153-129.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [] 00:15:48 synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has joined #scheme 00:15:57 Canadian eggs? Ewww... 00:16:14 *mbishop* slaps foof with some canadian bacon 00:16:45 Anyway, isn't that continent inhabited by Gambiters? 00:17:05 Errr... country. 00:17:13 *foof* just woek up 00:18:20 And a bunch of -re-e-e-eally- old-school APL hackers, at least in my neighbourhood. 00:19:59 weird 00:23:50 Are there any new-school APL hackers? 00:25:59 *mejja* laughs cruelly at: http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16896110452 00:27:46 -!- rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:32:06 borism [n=boris@195-50-197-169-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 00:37:23 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-12-28.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 00:38:51 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195-50-200-56-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 00:42:25 Daemmerung, yes - c.f. A+. 00:42:51 mejja: can I RAID them together? 00:42:59 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-11-148.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 00:43:01 -!- tizoc_ is now known as tizoc 00:43:35 ivan: ? 00:43:36 *foof* supposes it would be "Gambiteer" 00:49:28 -!- bsmntbombdood [n=gavin@97-118-128-184.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [] 00:49:56 bsmntbombdood [n=gavin@97-118-128-184.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 00:52:01 cemerick [n=la_mer@71.192.208.28] has joined #scheme 00:54:23 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless235.wireless.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:57:24 -!- felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has quit [Client Quit] 01:00:00 cubix [n=cubix@bas21-toronto12-1242359988.region1.highspeedunplugged.bell.ca] has joined #scheme 01:01:10 -!- hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD125054017176.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit ["|_ e /\ \/ i |/| G"] 01:03:23 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-95-99.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:11:07 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@71.192.208.28] has quit [] 01:21:24 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 01:28:47 -!- cubix [n=cubix@bas21-toronto12-1242359988.region1.highspeedunplugged.bell.ca] has quit [] 01:29:31 papermachine [n=ahoman@61.152.106.169] has joined #scheme 01:32:50 OceanSpray [n=karl@LEMON.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 01:40:57 saccade_ [n=saccade@65.78.24.47] has joined #scheme 01:41:06 hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD059133117089.ppp.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 01:45:05 I'm having a problem with define-struct in PLT Scheme 4.1 -- 01:45:17 I get "bad syntax" when I try to use #:auto-value, e.g. 01:45:37 (define-struct rectangle (x y width [height #:auto]) #:auto-value 0) 01:46:22 The example of "posn" from the help desk reference section 4.1 gives this error too. 02:01:17 -!- GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-235-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has left #scheme 02:04:20 saccade__ [n=saccade@VPN-ONE-TWENTY-SIX.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 02:07:47 cubix [n=cubix@bas21-toronto12-1242359988.region1.highspeedunplugged.bell.ca] has joined #scheme 02:08:34 cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-192-208-28.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:08:52 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-192-208-28.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:09:57 -!- foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 02:17:06 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65.78.24.47] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:31:03 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:34:13 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 02:38:17 felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined #scheme 02:38:48 pantsd [n=hkarau@129-97-136-61.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #scheme 02:38:57 -!- pantsd [n=hkarau@129-97-136-61.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:39:07 -!- tltstc [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has quit [] 02:39:08 pantsd [n=hkarau@129-97-136-61.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #scheme 02:41:26 dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:44:43 -!- rudybot [n=luser@li11-10.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:45:47 rudybot [n=luser@li11-10.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 02:46:02 -!- pantsd [n=hkarau@129-97-136-61.uwaterloo.ca] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:55:10 Daemmerung: damn, your FFI-fu impresses me ([plt-scheme] Is there any way to make a file writable?) 02:57:39 -!- nowhereman [n=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:57:50 nowhereman [n=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has joined #scheme 03:00:02 -!- sm [n=sm@pool-71-104-94-163.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:00:59 sm [n=sm@pool-71-104-94-163.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 03:02:55 mejja: maybe that's the secret to authentic Canadian waffles. 03:04:01 Is there anyone here who is as annoyed as I am that `union' is so different in length than `intersection'? 03:04:26 Alternatively, does anyone have a good alternate names? 03:04:28 offby1: assuming that the file is unwritable b/c its r attrib is set, you should be able to GetFileAttrs, then filter out all the attrs that aren't valid "setperms," then filter out the read-only attr as well, then turn around and SetFileAttrs with the resulting list. 03:04:45 eli: cheat and use Unicode? 03:05:02 eli, what union are we talking about here? 03:05:11 The wobblies! 03:05:17 Nah, that's *my* source code, and I'm usually using an os/viewer/editor without the right fonts. 03:05:29 arcfide: union and intersection of predicates. 03:05:50 Of predicates? How about `conjoin' and `disjoin'? 03:06:04 eli, as in MAPAND and MAPOR? 03:06:35 Riastradh: nice, but heavy enough that I'll never remember what they mean without spending an extra second... 03:06:54 arcfide: more accurately as (lambda (x) (andmap (lambda (p) (p e)) preds)) and the same with `ormap'. 03:07:08 offby1: ignore me, I'm an idiot. DIdn't realize you were quoting the mail subject line. 03:07:14 :) 03:07:24 I have that effect on people 03:07:30 It's been a long day, and I'm tired now. 03:07:50 eli, Okay, yes, so you're talking about (< (STRING-LENGTH "union") (STRING-LENGTH "intersection"))? 03:08:09 Yes. (very <) 03:08:37 Oh, alright, I was thinking for a bit that you were discussing relative code size of respecting implementations of UNION and INTERSECTION. 03:08:52 respective, even. 03:08:54 arcfide, to be precise, the difference in length exceeds the number up to which mathematicians are capable of counting before reaching aleph null. 03:09:14 Keep `union' and `intersection' but (define inter intersection) for that essential lines-up-nicely-in-columns property. 03:09:29 (assuming fixed pitch fonts of course) 03:10:21 *Daemmerung* wonders how column-oriented Fortran would work in Arabic 03:10:25 But that sounds like some inter-nal or something. 03:10:53 I also considered `intrsct' which is likely to make me spit at the laptop. 03:10:53 *arcfide* ponders. 03:11:07 I'll just go with the long names then... 03:11:07 eli, actually, I have an easier time thinking about the conjunction and disjunction of predicates, versus the union and intersection of sets. There is some historical precedent for this terminology, even if, of course, the two pairs of notions are equivalent. 03:11:57 -!- gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has left #scheme 03:12:10 eli, you could just use "combination" and "intersection". :-P 03:12:12 Riastradh: you're probably referring to "union"/"intersection" being mistaken for set operations -- and if this was in Hebrew, I'd agree with you. 03:12:32 that's bad, `combination' can be anything. 03:12:32 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-28-97.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 03:12:41 eli, I was in jest, of course, please don't do that. 03:12:58 Sorry, to clarify: conjunction and disjunction map to predicates in my head, whereas union and intersection map to sets. Exchanging the subject with the operations requires more mental effort -- `the intersection of predicates' makes me stop and think for a moment. 03:13:42 Riastradh: yes, that's what I thought. 03:13:47 OK. 03:13:48 I was thinking that too, if you have to use UNION and INTERSECTION, I would have specified something like PREDICATE-UNION? or MAKE-PREDICATE-UNION. 03:14:13 *eli* 's left eyebrow starts twitching 03:14:20 *arcfide* chuckles. 03:14:35 `return-true-if-any-predicates-return-true' 03:14:44 eli, not a fan of long names I see. 03:14:45 :-) 03:15:02 `return-true-if-there-exists-a-predicates-in-input-predicates-that-returns-true' 03:15:20 arcfide: no, I have my limits... 03:15:25 Heheh. 03:15:34 Not to be confused with `return-true-if-any-predicate-in-sequence-returns-true'. 03:15:57 The single line in swindle that annoys me most is a line in the drscheme interface that it has, which goes over 80 characters. 03:16:07 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-12-28.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:16:09 -!- tizoc_ is now known as tizoc 03:16:10 eli, well, does it need to be a specific procedure designed only for predicates? 03:16:21 And that's because it uses a function called `drscheme:language:simple-module-based-language->module-based-language-mixin'. 03:16:38 arcfide: yes. 03:16:59 eli: Okay. 03:17:06 but don't worry, I didn't intend for this to become such a project... 03:17:21 Maybe I'll just settle on `andf' and `orf' or something. 03:19:29 -!- sjamaan [n=sjamaan@frohike.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:21:52 annodomini_ [n=lambda@c-75-69-95-99.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:22:17 -!- saccade__ [n=saccade@VPN-ONE-TWENTY-SIX.MIT.EDU] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 03:24:18 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 03:24:20 offby1` [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 03:28:04 -!- offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:28:08 -!- offby1` is now known as offby1 03:31:00 -!- grnman [n=grnman@c-76-110-165-179.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:39:01 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:39:02 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 03:40:35 -!- vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has quit ["The incensed priests...continued to raise their voices, vituperating each other in bad Latin"] 03:52:55 eli: we had a conversation, which you've since forgotten, in which weekend implementors were an "irrelevant" basis for rnrs 03:52:58 eli: no reason to call me a "liar" because of a mnemonic defect 03:54:52 -!- mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:56:29 08:22:21 r6rs was specifically enforced to frustrate the 48 hour schemers 03:56:29 08:22:31 i.e. those who would implement a learning system over the weekend 03:56:29 03:58:06 Big difference between that and irrelevance. 03:58:52 If you want to implement a learning system over the weekend, R6 is right out. But so is R5. And you'll be taxed by R3/R4. 03:59:26 hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #scheme 04:03:46 OT: has the wednesday bailout plan vote happened yet? If so, which way did it go? I can't find this on google news 04:04:41 hml: try nytimes.com 04:07:01 it passed? 04:07:02 wtf 04:07:15 so we, the tax payers, are paying for wall street's greed? 04:07:35 wrong place for this discussion 04:07:53 forgot, this is scheme, the language, not schemes in general 04:08:04 Take it to #politics. 04:10:20 tjafk1 [n=timj@e176220062.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 04:14:30 -!- hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has quit [Client Quit] 04:18:56 jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:22:38 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-252-98-8.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 04:23:31 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:26:20 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 04:27:48 -!- tjafk2 [n=timj@e176194035.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:28:26 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 04:37:33 offby1` [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 04:53:16 -!- offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:00:42 -!- offby1` is now known as offby1 05:31:51 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["strawberry"] 05:33:11 -!- annodomini_ [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 05:33:43 -!- wastrel [n=wastrel@nylug/member/wastrel] has quit ["bedtime"] 05:36:26 certainty|work [n=david@212.77.255.5] has joined #scheme 05:42:26 -!- hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-252-98-8.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [] 05:51:56 Associat0r [n=Associat@h163153.upc-h.chello.nl] has joined #scheme 05:55:00 -!- Associat0r [n=Associat@h163153.upc-h.chello.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 05:56:41 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 05:57:19 borism_ [n=boris@195-50-205-169-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 06:04:13 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-197-169-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 06:14:07 hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #scheme 06:23:50 yhara [n=yhara@raichu.netlab.jp] has joined #scheme 06:24:20 klutometis, ping. 06:29:53 fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-088-068-098-140.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 06:36:55 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #scheme 06:43:42 peter__ [n=sjamaan@frohike.xs4all.nl] has joined #scheme 06:43:48 -!- peter__ is now known as sjamaan 06:45:28 -!- Arelius [n=Arelius@64.174.9.113] has quit ["Arelius (netblock-68-183-230-106.dslextreme.com[68.183.230.106]) requested QUIT."] 06:45:38 Arelius [n=Arelius@64.174.9.113] has joined #scheme 06:49:20 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:10:24 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 07:35:52 -!- sm [n=sm@pool-71-104-94-163.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 07:38:05 So, I have built a Gopher Server in Scheme. *chuckle* 07:39:21 hehe 07:46:31 -!- synx [i=pandora@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:55:06 -!- qebab [n=finnrobi@eros.orakel.ntnu.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:55:32 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 07:56:22 synx [i=pandora@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 07:56:30 qebab [i=finnrobi@gaupe.stud.ntnu.no] has joined #scheme 07:59:56 qeb`away [i=finnrobi@gaupe.stud.ntnu.no] has joined #scheme 07:59:58 -!- qeb`away [i=finnrobi@gaupe.stud.ntnu.no] has quit [Client Quit] 08:00:44 mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 08:07:23 ziggurat [n=ziggurat@pool-71-244-44-183.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 08:16:08 -!- hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has quit ["leaving"] 08:18:42 elmex [n=elmex@e180066179.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 08:19:01 -!- elmex [n=elmex@e180066179.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:19:07 elmex [n=elmex@e180066179.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 08:22:50 hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #scheme 08:30:12 klutometis: 1. Like Daemmerung said, there's a big difference between saying that "weekend implementations are irrelevant for r6rs" (what I might have said); 08:30:24 saying that "weekend implementors are irrelevant for r6rs" (what I wouldn't have said); 08:30:35 saying that "r6rs was specifically enforced to frustrate the 48 hour schemers" (what I would never dream of saying); 08:30:46 and arguing that I can in some mysterious way speak for the r6rs editors or know of whatever conspiracy you dream about. 08:31:09 klutometis: The first is possible, the second is a significant twist of words that changes the meaning, the third is nonsensical, and claiming that I said that, or claiming the fourth point *is* a *lie*. Plain and simple. 08:31:20 klutometis: 2. If you think that it's not a lie, you're welcome to provide a reference to validate your point. Until then, I will continue to refer to it as a lie. 08:32:00 klutometis: 3. I will insist on doing that, if only to counter your increasingly ridiculous vendetta against PLT and/or R6RS -- I have no personal reason to defend the latter, but ridiculous non-arguments like "r6rs is plt's baby", "r6rs is a conspiracy of the PLT mafia", and "r6rs is an ad-hoc formalization of plt scheme" are nothing but FUD at its best (and this is *real* FUD that I'm talking about, the one that st 08:32:00 arts with unfounded-lies-turned-rumors). 08:32:03 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 08:32:13 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 08:32:41 You keep repeating inflammatory terms like "PLT clique", "plt is the borg", "PLT mafia", all are the kind vague references that makes it a FUD campaign of the MS kind (it's therefore ironic that you're the one equating PLT and MS). It annoys me whenever such ridiculous nonsense is used as if it has any merit. 08:32:54 But when you add things like "Eli speaks for PLT", or when you point at me as proof of your plt/r6rs-conspiracy theories -- that makes it more than annoying. The natural thing for me to do is to call these mumbles lies. 08:33:14 If you want me to be more politically correct, I can refer you to a psychiatrist -- a kind of person you pay for so he'll listen to these theories. It will be especially useful when you start seeing men in black suits following you -- you'll get medications and skip informing #scheme of the PLT mafia putting a contract on your head. 08:33:36 klutometis: 4. If you cannot find a reference, and you want me to stop referring to what you said as "lies", then you're welcome to do the right thing. 08:33:57 klutometis: I also suggest you get over yourself with these absurd blurbs -- if you're happy with an r5rs-restricted world, or with being an exclusive chicken (or whatever) user then advocate them on technical grounds, and dis-advocate others on technical points too. 08:34:59 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:41:15 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 08:42:02 flame? 08:42:17 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:42:22 minion: advice for klutometis 08:42:22 klutometis: #11939: Because the computer cannot read your mind. Guess what? I cannot read your mind *either*. 08:42:27 mmc1 [n=gvtk86@217.147.104.33] has joined #scheme 08:43:02 MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 08:47:14 -!- hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has quit ["leaving"] 09:00:31 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 09:02:54 barney [n=bernhard@p549A3A29.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 09:04:31 mbishop_ [n=martin@adsl-35-254-242.msy.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 09:08:40 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-147-03.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 09:09:44 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 09:14:01 this is why I love this place 09:14:14 because everybody is absolutely, unquestionably right 09:19:50 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:22:19 xwl [n=user@221.221.166.134] has joined #scheme 09:23:50 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 09:29:24 -!- cubix [n=cubix@bas21-toronto12-1242359988.region1.highspeedunplugged.bell.ca] has quit [] 09:32:33 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 09:39:55 cubix [n=cubix@bas21-toronto12-1242359988.region1.highspeedunplugged.bell.ca] has joined #scheme 09:43:02 aspect: FWIW, I did try to keep it subjective; specifically, to "prove me wrong" on the use of "lies", the only thing that is needed is a reference. 09:44:31 sure 09:44:44 in fact you argued quite coherently and astutely 09:44:55 but also at great length and vehemently 09:45:57 and possibly beside the point of the feeling that klutometis' perhaps-misplaced perceived sniping came from 09:46:05 Well, I did so at absolute minimum participation, so the length will only bother those who bother to scroll back or read the logs. 09:46:17 but I'm not getting involved, as the qualifying adjectives indicate :-) 09:47:29 And I didn't want to get into this -- I'm generally avoiding r6rs flamewars like the plague. But this plague I was dragged into (and was I surprised that it happend). 09:48:45 you are the most visible active plt contributor in here 09:49:23 and there's still a lot of resentment toward the fact that increasingly, "scheme" means "plt" 09:49:46 to go back on my word and get involved so far as to state my opinion, ... 09:49:53 The plague was r6rs related, plt was brought as the conspirators behind it, and I was brought as the one who verified a part of that conspiracy. 09:50:59 I think that's probably misplaced: PLT seems to be a really nice growth out of the scheme effort, and the dissatisfaction with r6rs was inevitable -- many argued that scheme had already lost its way by or before r5rs 09:51:26 (BTW, it's one thing to resent you, but it's another to accuse you of being a mobster.) 09:52:20 if anything, r6rs is a good thing because it brings to an end the idea of scheme as a platonic ideal. which is about time. not that platonic ideals are a bad thing, but scheme was just one experiment in that direction and I think a change of direction is long overdue 09:52:48 shrug. such accusations are in my experience mostly ironic 09:53:06 it's like when someone beeps you in traffic -- best not to get offended, that only makes you feel bad 09:53:38 As for the r6rs thing, I will follow what I said and avoid talking about it. The only exception I'll make is to mention that my support for r6rs was *absolutely* unrelated to PLT -- I do want to see Scheme becoming a practical language; I've seen too many bastard languages grab its space. 09:54:38 The first experience was TCL, then came Perl, Python, Ruby, Javascript and more -- all winning in places where Scheme would do much better. 09:55:26 :'( 09:55:30 When I switched an implementation around 1997, Guile was the natural choice, and I did use it for a while -- but it is a sad representative. 09:56:29 Add to that things like Gimp which use SIOD, and things are even worse. No wonder Python and Perl become more popular there. (I'm surprised that they still have the SIOD engine in.) 09:57:33 but that's part of the point, I think 09:57:43 Wasn't it supposed to be tinyscheme or something now? 09:58:05 schumaml [i=c19b5f04@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-97876dd3fb664040] has joined #scheme 09:58:27 r6rs broke the back of any illusions that scheme is still a platonic ideal whose specification can exist independently of a range of useful, conforming implementations 09:59:08 aspect: what's part of the point? Making Scheme known for a particularly bad implementation to make the "Scheme is a useless toy that you must suffer through in some schools" myth stronger? 10:00:01 perl, python, ruby, tcl and javascript succeed not because of the language itself, but the ecosystem that exists around them. They also happen to be specified by implementation, which is an interesting observation at this juncture 10:00:13 PLT is moving into that space, which is great 10:00:17 *elf* sighs. 10:00:20 mornin. 10:00:24 shana tovah, eli. 10:00:34 aspect: js is defined by a spec and has been for a long time 10:00:43 BTW, that ideal should have been achieved by separating a good core from piles of libraries, which r6rs is doing (or trying to, at least). 10:00:53 oh lord, this again. 10:00:59 sjamaan: true. js is a poor example in this case for many reasons though 10:01:00 hi elf :) 10:01:03 hiya. 10:01:23 aspect: I appreciate your point, I was just trying to avoid confusion 10:01:29 The only thing is that previous RnRSs was written in times where such separation was not important (note the huge CL spec mess). 10:01:38 eli: I disagree that the two goals are compatible 10:01:40 elf: shana tova back. 10:01:47 r6 sucks, for a variety of reasons, the most important one of which (to me) being how much unpleasantness it has caused within the scheme communities. 10:02:23 No way to fix that anymore 10:02:27 aspect: (as a demonstration of what I said earlier, I'll ignore what elf just said.) 10:02:31 I think that "core scheme" needs to be reevaluated with backward compatibility a nongoal 10:02:46 platonic ideals aside, usefulness aside, design decisions aside, the political situations and methodology regarding or from r6rs are nightmarish. 10:02:54 r7 can either continue where r6 left off and piss off people who were pissed off by r6 or go back to the roots of r5 and piss off the people who liked r6 10:02:59 sjamaan: from the list that I specified, JS is actually the best language, IME. (or at least the least broken.) 10:03:09 eli: Agreed 10:03:13 elf: I disagree -- I think the fracturing has been a long time coming and is a good thing for scheme 10:03:33 eli: but also probably the least useful 10:03:56 aspect: the issue is, in many ways, due to namespace conflicts. 10:04:00 aspect: It has carved a nice niche for itself 10:04:01 *aspect* thinks r7 should continue where r6 left off, and core-scheme should go in another direction. possibly many 10:04:09 aspect: what -- JS? I disagree... It's getting more attention by the minute. (As a serious PL, that is.) 10:04:19 ie, both pre-r6 implementations and r6 implementations call themselves 'scheme' 10:04:29 yeah, and with Rhino and V8 it is starting to look even interesting for server-side programming 10:04:37 afk for walk. 10:04:40 All it needs are libraries (and with Rhino it can make use of the existing Java libs) 10:05:14 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 10:05:22 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 10:05:34 yep, it's maybe going there, but I think it's an interesting observation, relatied to our conversation, that the most beautiful language of those we just mentioned is also the one with the least practical toolsets surrounding it 10:05:49 aye 10:06:17 *aspect* thinks about "worse is better" and the wiki philosophy and so forth 10:06:22 I wonder how long that will take, though 10:06:41 With all the JS frameworks and renewed interest in optimizations 10:06:41 Well, with *some* module systems, it's easy to define a language as small and as beautiful as you want it to be. 10:07:03 [I'd point to my LC language & lecture notes, but they're down now, since a new semester has started.] 10:08:43 it's my opinion that core-scheme should be flexible enough that module systems can be created within it 10:09:48 but I think that's incompatible with having a rich set of libraries and a coherent module/package system 10:10:54 and I think both are interesting, which is the root of what I've just been talking about :) 10:11:13 I don't think that it is possible, both at a technical level (you want the language to be defined with a module system), and a social level (how useful is a module system as a tool for sharing work, if each of us use our own systeme?). 10:12:12 you don't think a language which can specify module systems is technically possible? 10:13:42 I agree that socially it has problems -- but they're not worse than pre-r6rs, and in fact a lot better if you can use the reference implementation of your neighbour's module system 10:14:55 but that's a chestnut, and I have soup to heat up :) 10:15:10 No, I don't think so, but that's a subjective, I never tried it. 10:15:28 [a subjective opinion, that is] 10:16:28 suffice it to say that despite my original moral outrage at r6rs, I've actually come around to thinking it's a good thing ... but I'm still looking for the subversive redirection of core-scheme which err5rs was only ever a shadow of an attempt at 10:18:27 I think ERR5RS is farily like R6RS.. I'm not even sure that the ERR5RS wiki clearly states where the forks happen, wrt the R6RS 10:27:24 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:31:09 NaNO2x [n=NaNO2x@vergil21.u.washington.edu] has joined #scheme 10:32:04 is there a way to check if the element given is not a list? or is there a way to check if there isn't a caar of a single item out of a list? 10:33:56 (not (list? elem)) 10:36:41 thanks much 10:36:54 i didn't know i could use the list? test 10:42:06 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 10:42:12 clarify 'there isnt a caar of a single item out of a list' ? 10:52:15 non 10:52:17 no 10:52:23 (not (member elem list)) 10:53:15 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:53:15 seomthing like that... list? won't tell you anything about the contents of the list 10:54:15 I need some practical help with modules i think (plt). If I LOAD a main scheme program, which REQUIREs modules, and then I edit those modules, the interpreter does not notice the changes and does not recompile the modules, right? 10:55:29 if u use drscheme, u need to click "run" 10:55:37 What should I do? (forgot, I use emacs) 10:55:50 and comint 10:57:09 (require) again? 10:57:37 cmuscheme.el that is 10:58:17 (require "name.scm") happens, but it does not reload the module, it seems. 10:58:59 It uses the old version. 10:59:27 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 11:03:18 *lol* 11:03:22 Small world, leppie. :-P 11:04:02 I spend too much time on #stackoverflow, so I haven't been as involved with #scheme lately, but I try to poke my head in once in a while. :-P 11:04:18 sonderma`: http://docs.plt-scheme.org/reference/enter.html#(form._((lib._scheme/enter..ss)._enter!)) 11:04:22 *elf* pokes at cky's head. 11:04:29 elf: Owie! :-P 11:04:44 ok, I have a look at it. 11:04:50 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-147-03.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Success] 11:05:00 elf: Long time no see, I hope your move went all right and you're settling in well. 11:05:16 Paraselene__ [n=None@79-68-228-157.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #scheme 11:05:28 cky: hiya :) unfortunately no to all of the above. how goes? 11:05:54 elf: That's a shame. Things are all right for me, pretty much. :-) 11:06:33 im glad things are going well for you, then :) 11:07:15 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-34-143.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 11:08:49 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:09:00 :-) 11:10:55 sonderma`: also have a look at http://list.cs.brown.edu/pipermail/plt-scheme/2008-June/025319.html 11:11:01 eli: enter! seems not to be what I'm looking for. More a variation of REQUIRE that cares for updates in the source. 11:11:22 ok. 11:13:23 sonderma`: `enter!' will "go inside" the module in a way that allows it to be reloaded, and if you use it a second time after the module was modified, it will reload it. 11:13:37 Hm? 11:14:30 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 11:14:36 But I do not want to go into the module from the repl. 11:14:48 leppie: Ping. :-) 11:15:32 Otherwise it looks ok. 11:16:03 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-28-97.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:18:19 vasau [i=7bb00cf6@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-125c9525a10b144a] has joined #scheme 11:19:16 Vsau [n=k@202.1.204.25] has joined #scheme 11:22:23 -!- Vsau [n=k@202.1.204.25] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:23:00 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 11:24:15 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-147-03.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 11:25:12 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:25:33 Vsau [n=Vsau@202.1.204.25] has joined #scheme 11:27:05 I tried to use enter! (in place of require) from the main.scm program file (which I LOAD interactively). The results are not encouraging. "reference to an identifier before its definition:" - errors turn up. Problem seems to be to jump out of then entered! context again... 11:28:41 -!- Vsau [n=Vsau@202.1.204.25] has quit [Client Quit] 11:30:11 -!- vasau [i=7bb00cf6@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-125c9525a10b144a] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 11:32:08 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:32:48 sonderma`: I never rely on interpreter state. I prefer to write program and run it 11:34:07 Yes, good. So you rerun the whole system after each change in the sources? 11:34:29 How does drscheme handle that? 11:35:48 besiria [n=user@webspirs.uom.gr] has joined #scheme 11:36:14 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 11:38:01 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 11:40:48 Ok, let's try something else then. The module language, is that scheme? Can I redefine REQUIRE in scheme? Or do I need to go into the interpreter sources? 11:42:51 -!- xwl [n=user@221.221.166.134] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:43:51 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-147-03.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:45:13 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #scheme 11:46:37 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-147-03.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 11:56:13 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 12:02:40 -!- MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@213.171.48.239] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:04:10 MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 12:08:06 -!- error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:09:17 ventonegro [n=user@136.166.1.3] has joined #scheme 12:13:00 -!- yhara [n=yhara@raichu.netlab.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:13:17 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:16:23 -!- cubix [n=cubix@bas21-toronto12-1242359988.region1.highspeedunplugged.bell.ca] has quit [] 12:33:11 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 12:35:37 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 12:35:58 apgwoz [n=apgwoz@som-somis-50.med.upenn.edu] has joined #scheme 12:38:33 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 12:41:54 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:47:40 -!- tizoc_ is now known as tizoc 12:54:53 xwl [n=user@221.221.166.134] has joined #scheme 12:58:52 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-147-03.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:59:43 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 13:08:59 pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has joined #scheme 13:10:05 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 13:10:45 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-137-203-90.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:12:20 -!- xwl [n=user@221.221.166.134] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:12:24 annodomini [n=lambda@64.30.3.122] has joined #scheme 13:21:24 xwl [n=user@221.221.166.134] has joined #scheme 13:22:33 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 13:22:42 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 13:27:37 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:28:30 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-147-03.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 13:31:26 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 13:31:33 -!- ziggurat [n=ziggurat@pool-71-244-44-183.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:37:54 -!- hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD059133117089.ppp.dion.ne.jp] has quit ["|_ e /\ \/ i |/| G"] 13:38:29 -!- dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 13:40:08 langmartin [n=user@75.148.111.133] has joined #scheme 13:40:57 -!- barney [n=bernhard@p549A3A29.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:42:02 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 13:44:04 forcer [n=forcer@e177139196.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 13:44:53 -!- pchrist|univ [n=spirit@gateway.hpc.cs.teiath.gr] has quit [Client Quit] 13:52:20 does anyone know what it takes to get the paper 'Hygienic macro expansion' from the ACM lib? ( http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=319859 ) 13:52:30 do i have to pay or something when registering? 13:54:04 nemik_ [n=cyanact@c-67-173-76-34.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:54:04 sonderma`: u can redefine 13:54:24 -!- certainty|work [n=david@212.77.255.5] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 13:54:35 -!- nemik [n=cyanact@c-67-173-76-34.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:58:41 -!- besiria [n=user@webspirs.uom.gr] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:03:51 oh cool 14:03:55 it's linked on wikipedia 14:03:55 rofl 14:04:40 annodomini [n=lambda@130.189.179.215] has joined #scheme 14:06:10 elmex, yes you have to pay AFAIK 14:06:26 leppie: found a link on wikipedia - fortunately 14:06:37 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygienic_macros 14:07:08 but it's even harder to digest, due to weird syntax, than the paper about the linear lazy mark-algorithm for macro expansion 14:10:00 rmrfchik: tx, I'll try that 14:10:54 why did I loose my two last letters? why were they replaced by a backtick? 14:11:38 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:11:46 your irc client being smart... 14:11:55 in which way? 14:12:49 perhaps when it autoreconnected your old nick was still present so it autogenerated "new" name... 14:13:12 ah, i see. can i do something against that? 14:14:16 consult your irc client docs... i use a scripted commands at reconnect to 'kill' old nick... etc. 14:14:37 i use erc. 14:14:42 /msg nickserver help 14:14:47 tx 14:14:49 ! 14:15:11 i used erc for a day or so, only. 14:15:17 alas, it says "*** nickserver: No such nick/channel" 14:15:25 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-147-03.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:15:27 nickserv 14:15:58 ghost is the keyword... 14:16:09 ok. 14:16:51 alas, "/msg nickserv help" does not say anything. 14:17:29 *sladegen* hmmms... it should. perhaps look in your buffers list. 14:17:41 ok 14:18:21 hircus [n=michel@c-98-228-41-95.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:19:27 '/join #emacs' if docs prove unhelpful. 14:21:33 yes, help messages are in buffer irc.freenode.net:ircd. 14:22:32 the syntax is "/msg nickserv ghost sondermann" 14:22:42 but my nick is not registered 14:22:44 hemulen [n=hemulen@cpe-069-134-114-252.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 14:23:09 so the message was refused 14:23:20 I should register the nick 14:23:49 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 14:23:54 sladegen: tx so much! 14:24:05 cubix [n=cubix@kb-v832-130-63-234-304.airyork.yorku.ca] has joined #scheme 14:24:08 stupid ISP!!! 14:28:27 sonderma`: well you can change your nick back to its proper scope now that it timedout with /nick, np 14:28:47 -!- sonderma` is now known as sondermann 14:28:56 AHA! cool! 14:29:01 tx so much! 14:29:35 perhaps there is /help ;) 14:31:28 sladegen: "/help" only shows emacs commands, afaics 14:35:49 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-147-03.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 14:37:02 wastrel [n=wastrel@nylug/member/wastrel] has joined #scheme 14:37:29 jlongster [n=user@75.148.111.133] has joined #scheme 14:45:33 umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has joined #scheme 14:50:56 mediogre [n=mediogre@PPPoE-78-29-89-3.san.ru] has joined #scheme 14:56:52 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:58:44 p1dzkl [i=p1dzkl@2001:470:1f14:19c:0:0:0:2] has joined #scheme 15:00:07 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:05:16 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 15:10:45 jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless167.wireless.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 15:14:36 -!- Daemmerung [n=goetter@64.146.161.228] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:14:37 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:25:19 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-147-03.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:27:55 -!- cubix [n=cubix@kb-v832-130-63-234-304.airyork.yorku.ca] has quit [] 15:28:43 sm [n=sm@pool-71-104-91-60.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 15:59:25 Daemmerung [n=goetter@64.146.161.228] has joined #scheme 16:00:03 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["foo"] 16:00:45 -!- OceanSpray [n=karl@LEMON.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:02:51 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has joined #scheme 16:02:51 -!- Daemmerung [n=goetter@64.146.161.228] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:03:26 OceanSpray [n=karl@CMU-301252.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 16:07:04 Daemmerung [n=goetter@64.146.161.228] has joined #scheme 16:10:46 -!- nemik_ is now known as nemik 16:16:40 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 16:17:03 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 16:17:37 replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 16:18:40 BW^- [n=Miranda@90-229-188-154-no63.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #scheme 16:18:49 any ISO 8601 date parser around? 16:19:19 Such beasts exist. 16:19:29 like where? 16:19:37 really a date lib that eats as much as possible. :) 16:19:38 If you are using MIT Scheme, there is one available in the runtime library. 16:19:54 not using mit scheme. 16:20:02 would it be interesting to port? 16:20:30 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-147-03.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 16:21:06 Decide for yourself: . 16:21:08 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/4xkal2 16:22:26 It parses and produces ISO C ctime(3), ISO 8601, RFC 2822, and RFC 850 date formats. 16:24:28 -!- xwl [n=user@221.221.166.134] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:24:53 aha 16:25:08 how invoke it to parse an iso 8601 string? 16:25:13 are you aware of other date string parsers? 16:26:14 One can just call ISO8601-STRING->DECODED-TIME, or one can use PARSER:ISO8601-DATE/TIME with other parsers in MIT Scheme's *parser framework. 16:27:04 ok nice! 16:27:30 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:28:11 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 16:34:40 -!- replor___ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:34:49 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:40:29 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:41:04 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 16:41:14 Riastradh: I notice, by the way, that MIT source puts a page break every 50 or so lines in addition to observing <= 80 chars/line. 16:41:25 Is there a similar, well-established number for lines/page? 16:53:45 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:54:26 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 16:58:38 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 16:59:00 -!- mbishop [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:59:04 -!- mbishop_ is now known as mbishop 17:00:49 -!- schumaml [i=c19b5f04@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-97876dd3fb664040] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 17:02:24 cubix [n=cubix@bas21-toronto12-1242359988.region1.highspeedunplugged.bell.ca] has joined #scheme 17:05:09 -!- MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@213.171.48.239] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:07:01 riastradh: do you know where *parser , alt , seq are defined ? 17:07:37 hmmm, whats the difference of a _syntactic_ environment, and a normal environment? 17:07:50 s/normal/dynamic/, I think 17:08:06 The dynamic environment is made up by the call tree 17:08:53 hmm, i maybe need a proper definition of dynamic environment first ;-/ 17:08:57 Like in elisp, iirc (let ((x 2)) ((lambda (x) (lambda () x)) 1)) returns 2 17:09:00 (before i can even ask that question) 17:09:10 aren't environments related to bindinds instead of the call graph? 17:09:36 bindings* 17:09:42 any further date parsing libraries around? 17:10:01 BW^-: SRFI-19, perhaps? 17:10:02 ventonegro: ? 17:11:27 hmmm 17:11:30 The dynamic environment is made up by the call tree 17:11:42 besiria [n=user@ppp083212085226.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #scheme 17:11:49 oh, I see now 17:12:07 sjamaan: well, in lisp we got dynamic scoping... but in scheme it's different, isn't it? 17:12:09 you mean the value of variables depend on the call stack 17:12:11 elmex: I just tried, and it should be (let ((x 2)) (funcall ((lambda (x) (lambda () x)) 1))) 17:12:24 hmm 17:12:25 elmex: Yes, but you can still have dynamic scoping if you choose to use it 17:12:32 fluid-let and SRFI-39 parameters 17:12:38 yes, fluid let 17:13:25 so the syntactic environment is a 'flattened' dynamic environment? :) 17:13:44 eh? 17:13:50 exactly :) 17:14:01 hmmm 17:14:35 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:15:05 so the association of identifiers to locations, active in a certain place in runtime in a program, is called 'dynamic environment' ? 17:15:32 -!- replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:15:41 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 17:15:43 No, that's just an environment 17:15:54 The syntactic environment also fits that description 17:16:04 the dynamic environemnt is the 'stacking' of environments? 17:16:05 Only at runtime do the identifiers refer to actual values/locations 17:16:15 yeah, something like that 17:16:32 hmmm 17:16:53 elmex: grab for yourself a copy of Lisp In Small Pieces 17:17:03 ventonegro: are the terms defined there? 17:17:13 elmex: you'll never have doubts about envinronments again 17:17:23 environments* 17:17:51 -!- umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has quit [] 17:17:59 'This book is the ultimate in Lisp implementation.' 17:18:01 not only the terms, you'll write different interpreters using both types of environments 17:18:04 sounds like the book for me 17:18:22 what about EoPL? 17:18:32 never read it 17:18:54 cool, that books rox 17:19:21 cool, they even got it at my local bib 17:19:27 <3 17:19:39 :-) 17:21:05 yeah, LiSP is nice 17:21:42 it's probably a good read for my current project of writing a scheme interpreter :) 17:21:48 :) 17:22:42 elmex: *the* read 17:23:29 haha 17:23:31 #t 17:25:56 jewel_ [n=jewel@41.247.195.116] has joined #scheme 17:29:06 yay, i can even fetch it this night 17:29:17 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212085226.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:29:27 i love our new 24h university library 17:29:32 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-147-03.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:32:12 Chapter 9: Macros Everything you want to know on macros, macroexpansion, hygien etc. in relation with (separate) compilation and interpretation. 17:32:13 -!- fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-088-068-098-140.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:32:16 haha, that can't be true 17:32:29 i've been studying the papers all week 17:32:39 -!- Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@abdallo.cs.unibo.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:33:04 ventonegro: thanks for the pointer 17:33:35 elmex: no problem 17:37:31 BW^-, *PARSER is MIT Scheme's parser language, described in the reference manual. 17:38:38 klutometis, MIT Scheme's source code is generally paginated somewaht logically, as well as to keep pages at most eighty lines. 17:38:39 r11t [n=himanshu@nh2035.engr.LaTech.edu] has joined #scheme 17:38:52 -!- OceanSpray [n=karl@CMU-301252.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:38:58 -!- r11t [n=himanshu@nh2035.engr.LaTech.edu] has left #scheme 17:43:09 aleix [n=aleix@46.Red-83-61-3.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 17:43:19 riastradh: where is the sourcecode for this library? is there a *parser implementaiton for any other scheme? 17:43:49 BW^-, the implementation is in the star-parser subdirectory of MIT Scheme's source. It is implemented only for MIT Scheme. 17:46:18 riastradh: so your understanding is that it is only available for MIT scheme, in the present moment? 17:46:33 Yes. 17:46:40 ok 17:51:45 r11t [n=himanshu@nh2035.engr.LaTech.edu] has joined #scheme 17:51:53 Riastradh: ping 17:51:59 -!- r11t [n=himanshu@nh2035.engr.LaTech.edu] has left #scheme 17:52:00 duncanm: pong 17:52:04 -!- mediogre [n=mediogre@PPPoE-78-29-89-3.san.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:52:24 Riastradh: were there fixes to enum-sets in s48 since the scsh fork? 17:52:30 Riastradh: i just tried an example, and it didn't work 17:52:34 I don't know. 17:52:37 hmm 17:52:41 What happens when you try? 17:52:50 > (enum-set->list (color-set red blue)) 17:52:50 Error: undefined variable 17:53:03 Riastradh: isn't there also a define-enumeration? 17:53:06 ...undefined variable what? 17:53:09 red 17:53:10 DEFINE-ENUMERATION is separate. 17:53:16 Where was COLOR-SET defined? 17:53:38 http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/projects/s48/1.1/manual/s48manual_47.html 17:53:42 Riastradh: i pasted the sample there 17:54:14 wait 17:54:30 oh, i think i missed some packages 17:54:44 Did you define the COLOR enumerated type? 17:55:14 KingOfKarlsruhe [n=nice@HSI-KBW-091-089-028-216.hsi2.kabelbw.de] has joined #scheme 17:55:25 ah, it worked 17:55:27 yeah 17:55:28 sorry 17:56:31 Riastradh: lisppaste-list-channel-pastes is borked. 17:58:25 mejja, no it's not! 18:00:22 The object #[rfc2822-header 4711 content-type] is not a HTTP header field. 18:00:55 eli? 18:01:22 mejja, check again. 18:01:31 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:01:33 (I forgot to commit the fix from a week ago.) 18:02:12 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 18:05:17 -!- apgwoz [n=apgwoz@som-somis-50.med.upenn.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:08:16 apgwoz [n=apgwoz@som-somis-50.med.upenn.edu] has joined #scheme 18:19:52 -!- aleix [n=aleix@46.Red-83-61-3.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:19:57 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:29:39 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 18:30:03 -!- BW^- [n=Miranda@90-229-188-154-no63.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:30:38 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:31:00 -!- mmc1 [n=gvtk86@217.147.104.33] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:34:28 -!- hircus [n=michel@c-98-228-41-95.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [No route to host] 18:37:32 tltstc [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has joined #scheme 18:44:34 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 18:45:14 -!- sm [n=sm@pool-71-104-91-60.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 18:45:39 rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #scheme 18:48:17 -!- CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-75-68-42-94.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:57:00 saccade_ [n=saccade@18.188.70.252] has joined #scheme 18:58:34 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 18:59:01 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195-50-205-169-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:59:31 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has joined #scheme 19:06:27 arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-137-203-90.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 19:06:29 Hey all. 19:10:03 hello 19:15:08 hi 19:15:53 -!- mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [""The U.S. is too isolated, too insular. They don't program enough and don't really participate in the big dialogue of softwar] 19:17:54 vasa [n=vasa@mm-42-94-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #scheme 19:18:05 minion: memo for mejja: Your quit message is too long for Freenode. 19:18:06 Remembered. I'll tell mejja when he/she/it next speaks. 19:21:56 sm [n=sm@pool-71-104-91-60.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 19:22:37 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:23:50 *Daemmerung* files an ignorant restraining order against mejja 19:23:54 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 19:24:14 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:36:45 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-137-203-90.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["See y'all"] 19:37:18 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 19:40:44 How can i get a string from console? like python's raw_input() ? 19:46:06 mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 19:46:39 Debolaz [n=debolaz@nat.andersberle.com] has joined #scheme 19:46:41 Riastradh: Bork bork. Internal error: malformed XML-RPC message. 19:46:41 mejja, memo from Riastradh: Your quit message is too long for Freenode. 19:46:50 *Debolaz* has finally taken the step to try to learn scheme. 19:48:52 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 19:51:27 -!- mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [""Of course there is powerful software in all big cultures, but you can't get away from the fact that Europe still is the cent] 19:58:15 aleix [n=aleix@46.Red-83-61-3.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 20:00:54 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless167.wireless.utah.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:01:00 jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless167.wireless.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 20:03:27 KingOfKarlsruhe: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.scheme/browse_thread/thread/6f9a695374d464e1 20:03:28 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/4eqtgx 20:10:20 hmm, i'm attempting to create a binary tree inorder traversal but my code doesn't seem to pop back up when i reach the furthest left's right node, could anyone take a look for me? 20:11:27 NaNO2x: link? 20:11:56 lisppaste: url? 20:11:57 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste. 20:12:36 http://rafb.net/p/PyVCPd22.html 20:13:31 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:13:37 want me to paste to lisppaste/ 20:14:33 nah; would you mind pasting the tree your using? 20:14:57 you're 20:15:03 (1 (2 () ()) (3 () ())) 20:16:45 oh, i'm also using the R5RS if it matters 20:18:28 klutometis pasted "what about this?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67815 20:19:20 not sure if that's what you wanted, but it "pops back up", i think 20:20:16 what is the begin for? 20:20:27 just to group the three statements together 20:20:43 it doesn't work on my scheme otherwise; not sure about yours 20:20:51 i'm guessing that's what i was missing 20:21:13 probably; what would you like to return, anyway: a list of the nodes in order, or just display them? 20:22:56 that's not working 20:23:17 i really don't want to really return anything this is going to build on my size function 20:23:23 and search function 20:23:27 and leavese function 20:23:33 and isBST function 20:24:05 what's not working? 20:24:50 ok so if i have it written the way you're saying it gives me "prcedure application: expected procedure, given: (); arguments were: # () 20:25:09 are you using plt? 20:25:16 hmm? 20:25:33 what scheme are you using? 20:25:49 i told you, R5RS 20:26:11 that's a class of scheme, as it were; there are many different flavors: mit, chicken, plt, etc. 20:26:21 hmmm 20:26:27 well i'm doing this in dr. scheme 20:26:29 my codes seems to work on chicken, for instance 20:26:32 aha; that's plt 20:27:06 -!- aleix [n=aleix@46.Red-83-61-3.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:27:07 NaNO2x pasted "here's all the code so far, lower functions aren't tested" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67817 20:28:54 NaNO2x: begin before (traverse ... and one less paren level. 20:28:56 you have an extra parenthesis in begin, by the way; just list the individual expressions 20:29:49 huh 20:30:02 oh i see 20:31:08 awesome that works now 20:31:16 now to figure out the rest of these functions 20:31:17 thanks much 20:31:26 player2 [n=kyle@users.wloy.org] has joined #scheme 20:31:55 is this hw, by the way, and do they allow mutation? 20:32:06 what do you mean by mutation 20:32:07 and yes 20:32:11 recurse 20:32:11 :P 20:32:18 changing variables with set!, etc. 20:32:22 ah 20:32:23 no 20:32:35 at least not yet 20:32:35 ok; good luck; let us know if you get stuck 20:32:43 thanks 20:33:09 so far scheme is quite fun but i'm coming from a c world and i gotta say things aren't quite straight forward 20:33:13 hi everyone, i know this is doable, i just don't think i understand how. i'm writing a postfix expression evaluator. i've decided to implement the function as accepting two arguments, stack and expr, and just call itself recursively. all works well, but i have to define a one-argument version for the external user to call. how can i use a lambda for the two-arg version and still use recursion? 20:33:45 NaNO2x: scheme's straightforward once you get used to it ;) 20:33:46 can i just use a let? 20:33:52 NaNO2x: at least you don't have to deal with mem management 20:34:05 psh, mem management is easy if you're ocd 20:34:13 my last major project was in asm 20:34:15 haha 20:34:24 it's easy, but it saps precious neurons 20:34:32 player2: can you paste some code? 20:34:35 sure 20:35:18 player2 pasted "My Two-Define Version" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67819 20:35:46 so can i just turn eval-expr-stack into a lambda and still recurse? 20:36:25 if you want to recurse on lambda, there's the unholy y-combinator; or check out srfi-31: http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-31/srfi-31.html 20:36:36 there's also "named let" and letrec 20:36:52 fuck i knew the y-combinator would be involved somewhere :( 20:37:23 letrec looks like exactly what i need tho] 20:37:30 it's pretty handy 20:37:42 woohoo thanks, i knew this was doable 20:37:45 heh 20:38:08 i remember reading not too long ago on programming.reddit someone's rant about how python's scoping rules made this impossible 20:40:19 kay....so i'm obviously forgetting something and perhaps built that traverse function prematurely. say for the size function it hits the traverse function and goes through the whole list without giving me any data each time it hits a new node, is there a way to fix this from there or should i just traverse within the actual function? i really would prefer to keep it modular but yeah.. 20:43:28 NaNO2x: you can pass in a function that processes each node 20:43:59 explain? 20:44:22 kuribas [i=kristof@d54C43E6B.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 20:44:37 one sec 20:45:01 functions are first class objects; so you can pass them around like function pointers in c 20:45:06 i'll give you an example 20:45:42 klutometis: i'm trying it out now, but it 20:45:49 i'm sure that's what i want, thanks very much :) 20:45:57 klutometis annotated #67815 with "passed-in function" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67815#1 20:46:09 player2: np 20:47:19 interesting 20:47:27 i could see this getting confusing 20:47:45 that's if you want to keep things modular 20:47:50 yeah 20:47:54 which i'd prefer to do 20:47:54 you did use function pointers in c, didn't you? 20:47:56 -!- pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has quit ["klapse..."] 20:47:59 yeah 20:48:12 it's just with recursion things like pointers i'd think would get very confusing 20:48:46 it's not a pointer per-se; just think of it like another variable 20:49:01 (traverse display '(1 (2 () ()) (3 () ()))) just tells it to invoke display on every node 20:50:07 -!- player2 [n=kyle@users.wloy.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:50:18 in fact, you don't need to do anything with null trees in this case, so i took them out of the condition 20:50:52 i'm not sure about your other functions, though 20:51:02 sonderma` [n=user@123-236-dsl.kielnet.net] has joined #scheme 20:51:28 hrm 20:51:31 i'm still a bit confused 20:51:35 about what? 20:51:41 so right now if i'm doing a preorder 20:51:47 When you want to do two things in the truth clause of an (if), but you don't care about what it evaluates to, do you just use (list) to conjoin the two things into one expression? 20:51:52 i'd send the value to another function 20:51:55 and traverse 20:52:04 synx: use begin 20:52:16 the problem is with no external variable to hold those values i can't use them in another function 20:52:29 Sure klutometis, thanks 20:52:33 and if i send them to one function then it's fairly useless building a traverse function 20:53:07 NaNO2x: that's where mutation might come in; there might be another way to do it, though 20:53:15 what function are you thinking of in particular? 20:53:45 well like for size i was thinking that the traversal should return the value and if that value is not null it would incr 20:53:56 then once traverse is done it would spit out the number 20:54:22 then for like contains it should return the value each time and do a check 20:54:52 -!- synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has quit [] 20:54:55 -!- cubix [n=cubix@bas21-toronto12-1242359988.region1.highspeedunplugged.bell.ca] has quit [] 20:54:57 then for leaves it should do a check on left and right and if they are null it would add them to a list 20:55:20 -!- parodyoflanguage [i=pseudony@mmds-216-19-34-118.twm.az.commspeed.net] has quit [] 20:56:05 synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has joined #scheme 20:56:58 klutometis annotated #67815 with "size with mutation" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67815#2 20:57:06 i don't want to do your hw, but this might be one way to think about it 20:57:53 that may give you a clue for the others, if you're allowed to mutate, that is 20:59:36 what is proc in this case 21:00:25 proc is the lambda, which is basically a nameless function 21:00:38 it's a function that takes one parm, the node 21:00:43 and increments size when it does 21:00:47 but it's defined in traverse 21:00:55 proc? 21:01:06 yeah, it points to the lambda 21:01:20 that we pass in 21:01:36 traverse gives it a name, that's true 21:01:49 -!- sondermann [n=user@66-199-dsl.kielnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:02:39 hmm this seems like a fairly good solution but i'm thinking i'm not supposed to know about that and wouldn't want to be asked what i did there, so i think i'm just going to force traverse into each of the functions hrm 21:02:59 well, it's a good time to learn 21:03:05 you'll have to sooner or later, trust me ;) 21:03:08 when it's not due :P 21:03:18 -!- ventonegro [n=user@136.166.1.3] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:03:25 well, when it's due you can relax 21:03:32 you certainly don't need mutation for this. 21:03:32 though this is the last part of the assignment other than some written 21:03:40 Daemmerung: you probably don't 21:03:44 just be frank and when asked say you got the idea from "tutor" on irc channel... 21:03:55 Daemmerung: can you be modular about it too, though 21:04:08 is he frank? I thought *I* got to be Frank this time. darn it. 21:04:12 sladegen, i like to know what i'm doing otherwise whats the point of doing it 21:04:35 NaNO2x: ask away, man; nothing wrong with being ahead of the class 21:05:00 yeah, but i want to get it finished then i'll come back here and learn scheme and be like crazy ahead 21:05:18 heh; kids these days with their practicality ;) 21:05:43 it's more kids these days who have not used practicality for years and need to 4.0 a few classes to get into a major 21:06:02 traverse could have a return value, see... and it could /do/ something with that return value.... 21:06:25 such as gather the nodes? 21:06:30 actually...that makes some sense, if i just threw all of the values into a tmp lst 21:06:31 returned that 21:06:34 then worked on that 21:06:45 klutometis: I was thinking of something size-ish. 21:06:52 inotherwords use it to flatten the list 21:07:12 i'd still not be able to get leaves to work properly but contains and size would work 21:07:37 Daemmerung: when backtracking is involved, i've always been at a loss as to how to avoid mutation; or at least a stack 21:08:24 klutometis: I suspect I don't know the entire problem. Just looking at the lisppaste. 21:08:44 it's just a basic tree traversal; with size, leaves, etc. 21:08:58 SICP had a flat map that was mutationless 21:09:18 come to think of it 21:10:09 NaNO2x: yeah, that's a half-solution, though; invest the time now to understand it, you'll be glad later 21:10:15 and maybe you can avoid mutation, too ;) 21:10:29 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@18.188.70.252] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:10:40 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S0106001310475d12.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 21:14:32 -!- langmartin [n=user@75.148.111.133] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:15:39 Is there any way to get a function to return something other than a single value, without using continuations? 21:16:27 specbot: r5rs values 21:16:27 http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_idx_572 21:16:28 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/yoye9g 21:16:50 Duh, thanks. :) 21:17:28 I'd recommend that you hold off on using them until you're a little more comfortable in Scheme, though. 21:17:43 Well okay. 21:18:08 I was just looking to return nothing, instead of always returning #f, but it's no big deal for now. 21:18:53 Well, (values) will indeed return nothing. But (values 1 2) almost certainly doesn't do what, naively, you might want it to do. 21:19:40 Oh, so if (values) is the last expression in a lambda then it'd evaluate to 0 return values. 21:20:03 It would pass 0 values to that lambda's continuation. Yes. 21:20:39 Tell me, why do you want to return "nothing"? Tired of seeing noise in the REPL? 21:20:55 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 21:21:25 lelf [n=Lelf@217.118.90.123] has joined #scheme 21:22:17 What, so I'm picky. :) 21:22:34 But more so that nobody misconstrues my function thinking its return value has some meaning. 21:22:53 -!- qmrw [n=russd@willers.employees.org] has left #scheme 21:22:56 Does your Scheme have a void object, or an undefined-object? 21:23:33 Yeah, but it seems to evaluate to #procedure:void, which counts as a value... 21:26:01 Anyway, so here's what I have working so far: https://synx.us.to/feepcode/continuationEvent/event.scm 21:26:11 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless167.wireless.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:26:21 It could probably work with any event, but I only used alarm events to test it out. 21:26:46 Made a function that acts like sleep, but allows for cycling through an event loop while sleeping. :) 21:27:06 I know, reinventing the wheel, but just trying to get a feel for the language. 21:28:54 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-2-50.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 21:28:57 jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless167.wireless.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 21:29:38 NaNO2x annotated #67817 with "size function" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67817#1 21:29:49 so yeah.... 21:29:57 i'm going to take the lazy way out, but it's not working 21:31:03 NaNO2x: good, it's the cosmos punishing you ;) 21:31:05 when that recuses it doesn't seem to pop the number up right 21:31:06 :P 21:32:01 soooo 21:32:16 how am i screwing up this time? 21:32:19 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 21:32:30 -!- Paraselene__ [n=None@79-68-228-157.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [No route to host] 21:36:47 synx: that last (values) in your (test) should be unnecessary, if I'm reading your code correctly. 21:37:02 recuses? 21:37:19 Daemmerung: Uh, yeah you're right sorry. 21:37:44 wabash [n=user1@pool-71-171-166-11.mdsnwi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 21:38:03 I added it but only later thought, "Say, why should main-loop return any values at all?" 21:38:40 Hi. Is there a built-in procedure in scheme that would let me know if a number is a fraction? like (fraction 5/3) = #t and (fraction 42) = #f? 21:40:10 -!- lelf [n=Lelf@217.118.90.123] has quit ["used jmIrc"] 21:40:35 anyone? Or does anyone have other ideas to find if something is an integer or not? 21:41:40 wabash: (lambda (n) (and (rational? n) (not (= 1 (denominator n))))) perhaps 21:42:07 Daemmerung: Thank you. I think there's a method I just found called "integer?". 21:42:40 Probably what you want, yes 21:42:47 ok, thanks. 21:43:08 Do you know ofa reference for MIT-scheme that lists the builtin methods? 21:45:25 s/methods/procedures, it's out there, but I wouldn't know where w/o googling. 21:47:07 NaNO2x: it does pop up, but you're not seeing it; the last value only counts the left branch 21:47:21 right but why 21:47:23 NaNO2x: that's why i originally used mutation; but there may be a non-mutative way 21:47:48 i mean there should be a way to pop up the temp value that gets added to each time right/ 21:47:55 because that's the last value it happened to calculate; it's memory is only one path deep 21:48:03 NaNO2x: you'd need mutation, i think 21:48:08 mutation is a form of memory 21:48:10 hmm 21:48:13 ok 21:48:26 but Daemmerung seems to think there's a functional way to go about it 21:48:55 maybe he's thinking functional tree-flattening plus length 21:49:04 yeah 21:49:22 hmm 21:50:09 What /me thinks is a lot easier, taking Sodium Nitrite's lazy way out. Now think recursively.... 21:51:20 NaNO2x: try this: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-15.html#%_sec_2.2.2 21:51:23 (I should ask: is `size' meant to be the maximum depth of the tree, or the number of nodes (leaf and internal), or what?) 21:51:27 it's a nice count-leaves sans mutation 21:51:31 number of nodes 21:52:33 ... looks like SICP gave the show away. If reading SICP counts as cheating, then you should be proud to cheat. 21:53:11 doesn't cover internal nodes, though, as far as i can tell 21:53:17 maybe that's a exercise for the reader 21:53:23 lol 21:53:31 yeah i need size including internal nodes 21:53:48 but it also looks like their tree is formed differently 21:53:53 it is 21:53:58 but maybe you can adapt yours 21:54:00 than the (node (left) (right) 21:54:19 The same general approach applies. Recurse, summing the results. 21:54:27 *Daemmerung* recuses himself from further recursion 21:54:47 haha 21:59:39 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@41.247.195.116] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:02:47 christ, i've been doing so much CLRS that i've lost my SICP-fu 22:03:50 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-75-68-42-94.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:03:53 Sapir-Whorf as applied to software engineering. Happens to me all the time, too. I have a very shallow stack. 22:03:55 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-42-94-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 22:05:27 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S0106001310475d12.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [] 22:05:32 Daemmerung: that's a very subtle invocation of SW; nice 22:06:54 BW^- [i=Miranda@79.138.192.74.bredband.tre.se] has joined #scheme 22:07:13 how is it, is there a limit of 65536 active TCP connections per /Linux/ machine ?? 22:07:59 Well, since there are only 65535 TCP port numbers available... 22:08:13 but when it comes to outgoing connections ? 22:08:20 Those must be assigned port numbers, too. 22:08:27 i mean, if you spawn 1000 connections each to 1000 different ip:s, what happens? 22:08:34 Of course, you might have multiple IP addresses, and you can accomplish this with virtual ethernet interfaces. 22:08:41 ah right 22:08:46 (This won't work if your physical interface is an 802.11 interface, though.) 22:09:08 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 22:09:24 BW^-: a suitably clever use of NAT may be able to make that work with >65536 connections. 22:09:27 802.11 as in.. ? 22:09:32 as in IEEE 802.11 22:09:34 802.11 as in IEEE 802.11. 22:09:44 as in, JFGI 22:09:46 commonly known as.. regular ethernet interface hardware? 22:09:51 Um, no. 22:09:53 no, commonly known as JFGI 22:09:55 right 22:10:01 chandler, the NAT would have to have multiple IP addresses, then. 22:10:35 Really, the problem is the limited number of internet socket addresses and protocol numbers. 22:11:03 Riastradh: Actually, I take it back. NAT per se really isn't required; if you're connecting to different destination addresses, I'm not aware of any reason why you couldn't reuse source ports. 22:12:24 OK, I suppose that would multiply the number of possible active TCP connections by an upper bound of roughly 2^16 -- of course if there are multiple connections to the same destination, the factor is much lower. 22:12:56 old reference, but: The need for doing this is rather small, though, as IP Chains implements ``port reuse''  unless the kernel has been compiled with the CONFIG_IP_MASQ_NREUSE option. 22:13:01 http://cryp.to/publications/masquerading-idle-connections/ 22:13:28 "This means that ports that are in use already can be reused for a new connection if either the destination address or the destination port suffice to make the quadruple unique. " 22:14:44 ok nice! 22:15:16 Riastradh: Why does the universe disclose itself to you with such azure clarity; such that you appear to have anointed neurons? 22:15:54 *Riastradh* blinks. 22:15:57 -!- ttmrichter [n=ttmricht@58.49.18.75] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:16:16 That's better than a shrug. 22:16:58 Another way to phrase your question, klutometis, is: `Why is your head full of such masses of trivia?' To this question I have no paragon of azure clarity with which to respond. 22:16:59 i made a related test on a 32bit linux machine some time ago, and the kernel started behaving strangely after ~30000 local sockets. do you have any idea why? 22:17:52 BW^-, probably because there is a limited range for the port numbers that the kernel allows itself to allocate for TCP connections. 22:18:13 Or because the Linux kernel is buggy. 22:18:29 you think? 22:18:38 Perhaps there is a per-process limit on open file descriptors you're running in to. 22:19:03 What does `the kernel started behaving strangely' mean, precisely? 22:19:38 oh, i think applications were closed randomly 22:19:49 Perhaps you ran out of memory. 22:20:14 right. well my test was very unscientific, so i don't have much real conclusions to draw. 22:24:39 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe [n=nice@HSI-KBW-091-089-028-216.hsi2.kabelbw.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:25:17 -!- wabash [n=user1@pool-71-171-166-11.mdsnwi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #scheme 22:27:45 annodomini [n=lambda@64.30.3.122] has joined #scheme 22:29:29 annodomini_ [n=lambda@erlang.Kiewit.Dartmouth.EDU] has joined #scheme 22:40:32 -!- annodomini_ [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 22:41:48 ricky_ [n=ricky@fedora/ricky] has joined #scheme 22:41:59 -!- ricky [n=ricky@fedora/ricky] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 22:42:44 -!- ricky_ is now known as ricky 22:46:25 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:47:01 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@68.237.108.78] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:47:06 OceanSpray [n=karl@CMU-301252.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 22:54:16 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 23:00:50 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-27-197.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 23:01:22 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-34-143.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:01:52 -!- tizoc_ is now known as tizoc 23:02:32 replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 23:06:27 -!- jlongster [n=user@75.148.111.133] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:17:55 -!- leimy [n=dave@pool-98-111-64-159.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 23:19:01 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:19:42 -!- kuribas [i=kristof@d54C43E6B.access.telenet.be] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:24:32 amca [n=amca@121.208.81.104] has joined #scheme 23:28:52 -!- replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [No route to host] 23:30:15 -!- pfo_ [n=pfo@chello084114049188.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:43:22 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless167.wireless.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:44:04 -!- amca [n=amca@121.208.81.104] has quit [No route to host] 23:44:32 amca [n=amca@CPE-121-208-81-104.qld.bigpond.net.au] has joined #scheme 23:51:09 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-138-99.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme