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2017-04-01T00:09:00Z stassats: dougk_: i came up with https://github.com/stassats/sbcl/commit/63554ffe9c33eb7c4b5a4847a339b949888bfdfa
2017-04-01T00:10:15Z dougk: interesting, so the layout still enlivens, but we can skip scavenging. neat.
2017-04-01T00:10:22Z dougk: do you have a lot of wholly raw instances ?
2017-04-01T00:10:35Z stassats: i don't really have anything
2017-04-01T00:10:49Z dougk: file buffers are one idea
2017-04-01T00:11:00Z stassats: just got into all things gc
2017-04-01T00:11:01Z dougk: no longer need foreign memory. the fd-stream points to a wholly raw instance somehow
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2017-04-01T00:11:53Z dougk: well, that and put them in immobile space, i mean
2017-04-01T00:12:49Z stassats: i'm not sure if the layout enlivens enough, though
2017-04-01T00:15:05Z stassats: but i'm not sure how immobile space operates
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2017-04-01T00:16:15Z stassats: and FIXNUM would have to become tagged for this to be remotely useful
2017-04-01T00:17:17Z vtomole: unrelated question: is sbcl developed on the github mirror?
2017-04-01T00:17:28Z stassats: no
2017-04-01T00:17:36Z stassats: it's a mirror
2017-04-01T00:19:00Z stassats: though having pure instances will always be useful, not tripping the write barrier on writing a non-descriptor value would be even better
2017-04-01T00:19:47Z dougk: yes, but software barriers are so iffy in terms of whether they make anything faster, and signal handling-based doesn't want to examine every word written
2017-04-01T00:20:01Z dougk: cracauer has some WIP concerning this
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2017-04-01T00:21:33Z stassats: there is a problem when there's a lot of unprotected pages but not enough garbage created to promote young references
2017-04-01T00:22:00Z stassats: with my large-object change it shouldn't be as pronounced
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2017-04-01T00:25:53Z stassats: ok, found a clear win, fixnum RATIO shoulds be moved into unboxed
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2017-04-01T00:34:23Z dougk: between us I think we have at least 25 commits to gc-common in the last month. it's faster by a ton, but so hard to get non-noisy measurements
2017-04-01T00:35:03Z dougk: i find that i have to use the identical Lisp core and hack one of the C runtimes to disregard the core version to get anywhere near non-noisy
2017-04-01T00:36:21Z stassats: unboxed ratios is a good idea, do people use fixnum complexes?
2017-04-01T00:41:32Z dougk: gaussian integers ?
2017-04-01T00:48:48Z leo_song: What is the right way of using sb-alien:cast? "(cast (make-alien float) int)" will raise error:"cannot cast to alien type"
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2017-04-01T00:50:15Z stassats: leo_song: make-alien returns (* float)
2017-04-01T00:51:12Z leo_song: Therefore, should it be "(cast (make-alien float) (* int))"?
2017-04-01T00:51:30Z stassats: if that's what you want
2017-04-01T00:51:39Z leo_song: Thank you!
2017-04-01T01:00:24Z stassats: i don't get it, my trans_ratio is sometimes not invoked
2017-04-01T01:04:20Z stassats: incorrect measurement
2017-04-01T01:27:42Z stassats: i did complexes as well, using the same function
2017-04-01T01:28:15Z stassats: but i actually do use a lot of ratios
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2017-04-01T15:03:05Z stassats: ugh, i think there can be a problem with moving ratios into unboxed on precise gcs
2017-04-01T15:03:47Z stassats: since it starts as 0 0 and nothing pins it down before a bignum can be written to it
2017-04-01T15:07:09Z stassats: extending PA until the slots are filled would be a solution
2017-04-01T15:18:34Z stassats: an easy solution that would actually be hard to implement, requiring changes in all backends
2017-04-01T15:35:35Z stassats: but you can't a legitimate 0 0 ratio
2017-04-01T15:35:51Z stassats: or complex
2017-04-01T15:46:45Z stassats: a wider PA would have been cheaper, but too unreasonable to redo everything
2017-04-01T16:10:53Z stassats: confirmed that it's indeed a problem on arm64 and that checking for 0 0 does work
2017-04-01T16:11:30Z stassats: but heap exhaustion there causes Maximum error nesting depth exceeded
2017-04-01T16:21:09Z stassats: *handler-clusters* in heap-exhausted-error is (#<code object [5] SB-KERNEL:OUTPUT-OBJECT, (FLET #:WITH-PRETTY-STREAM262 :IN SB-KERNEL:OUTPUT-OBJECT) {1000091ACF}> . #<return PC object {1000092E8F}>)
2017-04-01T16:22:05Z stassats: or just * SB-KERNEL:*HANDLER-CLUSTERS* => (#<return PC object {100009325F}> . :CHARPOS)
2017-04-01T16:23:13Z stassats: dynamic extent and all that, but it should be ok inside heap-exhausted-error
2017-04-01T16:27:20Z stassats: and for some reason it fails only in slime
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2017-04-01T18:32:52Z stassats: even when heap-exhausted-error works, the backtrace is bogus
2017-04-01T18:33:03Z stassats: so something is corrupting the stack
2017-04-01T19:24:18Z stassats: found it, alloc_tramp wasn't saving cfp and csp into the thread struct, and call_into_lisp corrupted the stack
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2017-04-01T23:13:39Z pkhuong: dougk_: re software (write) barriers, there are indirect benefits with huge pages and threading (no mprotect-triggered IPI).
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2017-04-02T00:32:38Z stassats: it seems that for something can reach gen5 only from (gc :full t)
2017-04-02T00:46:11Z stassats: when i allocated a large list, (gc) fails, but when i manually add the bytes allocated in the table it doesn't add up to "Total bytes allocated"
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2017-04-02T01:10:27Z stassats: for some reason it wants to alloc into generation 7, and alloc_start_page for this is the penultimate page
2017-04-02T01:11:09Z stassats: shouldn't it wrap around or something
2017-04-02T01:33:34Z stassats: there's actually no free pages, write_generation_stats must be wrong
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2017-04-02T17:00:48Z stassats: i can do (progn (length (make-array 100000000)) (gc :gen 6) (length (make-array 100000000))), but not :gen 6
2017-04-02T17:04:45Z stassats: but not if i do (setf (sb-ext:gc-logfile) "/tmp/gc") beforehand...
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2017-04-02T17:26:11Z stassats: collect_garbage calls garbage_collect_generation multiple times, and garbage_collect_generation processes the stack and register each time
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2017-04-02T17:46:43Z flip214: stassats: set a few GDB breakpoints and fetch data via "commands ... end" instead of using the logfile...
2017-04-02T17:46:48Z flip214: should be less intrusive
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2017-04-02T20:51:41Z Xof: people in the bar at the hotel here were being very nice about SBCL
2017-04-02T20:51:56Z Xof: at least in my presence :)
2017-04-02T20:52:10Z Xof: (who knows what they're saying now...)
2017-04-02T20:52:47Z nyef: Xof: That's good to hear. Having fun?
2017-04-02T20:53:43Z Shinmera: Xof: Baggers and I aren't saying anything right now, but we're still appreciative of SBCL now.
2017-04-02T21:00:31Z stassats: Xof: that's what people who haven't seen the entrails of SBCL say
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2017-04-02T21:03:41Z nyef: Ah, haruspicy.
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2017-04-03T18:03:55Z stassats: dougk_: have you tried moving preserve_pointer from garbage_collect_generation into collect_garbage?
2017-04-03T18:04:09Z stassats: since garbage_collect_generation can be invoked multiple times by collect_garbage
2017-04-03T18:10:00Z dougk_: you only want to preserve pointers in the generation that's being evacuated though
2017-04-03T18:10:20Z stassats: does it check?
2017-04-03T18:10:27Z dougk_: what you say would probably work, but would insert pointers that we don't care about
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2017-04-03T18:12:33Z dougk_: the guts of gc probably don't care, but i think we can do better by scanning the stacks and building an array of the pointers that we might care about in any generation in the gc that is about to happen, but in any one collect_genration() only track the ones that matter
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2017-04-03T18:13:00Z dougk_: this would avoid rescanning all stacks for each generation collected, but keep the set of relevant pins pretty small
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2017-04-03T18:16:23Z stassats: dougk_: are is the hashtable reused between garbage_collect_generation? collect_garbage?
2017-04-03T18:21:26Z dougk_: the hashtable is cleared around where we zero out the oldspace
2017-04-03T18:22:02Z stassats: dougk_: cleared or deallocated?
2017-04-03T18:22:11Z dougk_: actually, not quite. it's cleared before we start. it is cleared, not deallocated
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2017-04-03T18:30:47Z dougk_: stassats: i think a bigger win for collect_garbage() would be to decide in advance what calls will be made to garbage_collect_generation, and do the effect of those together instead of as 2 cycles. So if we're going to collect 0 and 1 and promote the remains to 2, it seems there ought to be a way to make only 1 call to collect_generation
2017-04-03T18:32:09Z dougk_: from_space_p needs to essentially become a bitmask of generations, not a single 'from' generation
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2017-04-03T18:33:26Z stassats: at least preserve pointer stuff could be hoisted out
2017-04-03T18:34:03Z stassats: not sure if everything can be, due to write_protection limiting scavenging
2017-04-03T18:35:13Z stassats: but i think the gc triggers are broken anyway, i'm not observing nay logic as to when something will be collected
2017-04-03T18:36:00Z dougk_: i'll try the hoisting out of preserve pointers. i've got some other stuff i'm looking at first, for which i actually needed in-GC hashtables. tail wagging the dog is why I put those in
2017-04-03T18:42:09Z stassats: is the mark-and-sweep gc general enough? can we switch to it if there's an exhaustion during GC?
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2017-04-03T18:51:24Z dougk_:  not really
2017-04-03T18:52:03Z dougk_: the spaces are tiny, it might not yet work with all object types, the allocator isn't hooked up right which is why it needs a per-object-type stub in C
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2017-04-03T21:05:06Z kami: Good evening.
2017-04-03T21:05:55Z kami: I have a strange test failure in sb-concurrency which only occurs on a Launchpad build machine, but not in my local environment.
2017-04-03T21:06:37Z kami: Although I use a pbuilder environment which creates a chroot which mimics the build machine's environment.
2017-04-03T21:06:58Z kami: This is the build which fails: https://launchpad.net/~darabi/+archive/ubuntu/lisp/+build/12393406
2017-04-03T21:07:53Z kami: Searching in the buildlog for "Test SB-CONCURRENCY-TEST::FRLOCK.1 failed" shows the failure
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2017-04-03T21:08:11Z kami: The build log is here: https://launchpadlibrarian.net/314249978/buildlog_ubuntu-yakkety-amd64.sbcl_2%3A1.3.16-3-g318f311~yakkety+2_BUILDING.txt.gz
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2017-04-03T21:50:27Z scymtym: kami: these tests are known to be flaky. seems to be worse on virtual/heavily loaded machines. in our CI environment, specifically the x86 slave, the sb-concurrency tests often fail.
2017-04-03T21:50:55Z dougk_: scymtym: i like how our error message is so incredibly useful. (NOT!) Did you see the build log? The error is "error"
2017-04-03T21:51:36Z kami: scymtym: thank you. Good to know you experience this too.
2017-04-03T21:52:54Z scymtym: dougk_: maybe i'm already used to it, but i mostly spot the "WARNING! Some of the contrib modules did not build successfully or pass their self-tests. Failed contribs:" sb-concurrency" right away :)
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2017-04-03T22:07:28Z dto: what feature does sbcl provide on 64 bit windows? is it :win64 ? or is there a generic :windows feature?
2017-04-03T22:10:11Z nyef: ... Does stock SBCL even run as a 64-bit program on windows?
2017-04-03T22:10:38Z nyef: Ah, I see x86-64-win32-os.[ch] in src/runtime/. I guess it does.
2017-04-03T22:11:14Z nyef: dto: Looks like it might be (and win32 64-bit)
2017-04-03T22:11:31Z kami: scymtym: what is your strategy for the failing sb-concurrency tests? Do you disable them?
2017-04-03T22:11:40Z dto: interesting. btw yes it does nyef
2017-04-03T22:11:54Z dto: nyef: come to #xelf :) we should talk about the jam
2017-04-03T22:12:51Z nyef: dto: I'm suddenly reminded of that scene in Spaceballs where they Jam the radar. d-:
2017-04-03T22:13:13Z dto: heh
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2017-04-03T22:18:58Z scymtym: kami: in our setup, failures (of different kinds) are so frequent that i just try to spot new problems manually and ignore the rest
2017-04-03T22:19:43Z kami: scymtym: is there an easy way of disabling the sb-concurrency tests in one place?
2017-04-03T22:20:17Z scymtym: kami: i haven't looked yet
2017-04-03T22:20:31Z kami: scymtym: thanks for your help.
2017-04-03T22:22:27Z scymtym: kami: make-target-contrib.sh drives that part of the build. you could probably disable the check at the end of that file
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2017-04-03T23:35:53Z fe[nl]ix: nyef: do you have time to take a look at the ELF patches ?
2017-04-03T23:36:39Z nyef: Oh, damnit. Forgot about those. Yes, but possibly not tonight?
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2017-04-03T23:39:05Z fe[nl]ix: sure
2017-04-03T23:39:21Z fe[nl]ix: I'm at the ELS so I wouldn't have time anyway
2017-04-03T23:39:36Z nyef: Fair enough. Have fun. (-:
2017-04-03T23:39:50Z fe[nl]ix: thanks :)
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2017-04-04T11:58:28Z scymtym: dougk_: potential build failure on x86: https://ci.cor-lab.org/view/rsx-trunk/job/sbcl-master/2132/featureset=7,label=ubuntu_trusty_32bit/console
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2017-04-04T12:41:08Z Xof: things wanted from ELS people: growable heap, concurrent GC, AVX intrinsics
2017-04-04T12:41:22Z Xof: Power 8 port
2017-04-04T12:41:56Z Xof: Didier wants coroutines
2017-04-04T12:43:28Z White_Flame wants local heaps
2017-04-04T12:45:09Z Xof: are you here?  If not you don't count, sorry :-)
2017-04-04T12:45:27Z White_Flame wants to be at ELS, does that count? ;)
2017-04-04T12:45:39Z Xof: each thread has its own nursery, is that not enough?
2017-04-04T12:45:56Z White_Flame: nope
2017-04-04T12:46:00Z Xof: bah
2017-04-04T12:48:25Z Xof: no-one says they want to multiply million-digit bignums slightly faster
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2017-04-04T13:02:00Z jdz mumbles something about a drunk and a lamppost...
2017-04-04T13:02:37Z flip214: Xof: ppc64 would be really great... and a resizable heap too
2017-04-04T13:14:34Z scymtym_: dougk_: memory fault in hopscotch-hash test on x86_64 for 6ba1be47557b5fccf32a87380671b443fbd089a2 with ccl host: https://ci.cor-lab.org/job/sbcl-master/2132/featureset=7,label=ubuntu_trusty_64bit/consoleFull search for "unhandled memory fault"
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2017-04-04T15:07:12Z Xof: Common Lisp Foundation asks for proposals for crowdfunding
2017-04-04T15:08:25Z Xof: thinking about one campaign per quarter
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2017-04-04T15:10:56Z Xof: (also I think we probably have about $2k with SBCL's name on it at the CLF)
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2017-04-04T15:41:10Z aeth: What Lisp needs is to polish its popular and/or interesting libraries imo. Similar logic applies to SBCL itself, imo. Better documentation would be nice and perhaps a website redesign. Afaik, there's just http://sbcl.org/manual/index.html
2017-04-04T15:41:39Z aeth: The style of that could be fixed with just a max-width
2017-04-04T15:42:41Z aeth: (But my opinion doesn't count because I'm not at ELS.)
2017-04-04T15:43:45Z aeth: But the most important thing a Lisp implementation needs to signal to visitors imo is "we're not dead"
2017-04-04T15:44:08Z aeth: So many people who should use SBCL don't.
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2017-04-04T15:48:46Z stassats: Xof: while snooping around gencgc, i think growable heap is relatively easy
2017-04-04T15:49:44Z stassats: and AVX intrinsics would probably the least invasive change
2017-04-04T15:53:51Z stassats: can you remap virtual addresses? would've been a good way to compact pages
2017-04-04T15:54:34Z stassats: linux has mremap
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2017-04-04T16:30:03Z stassats: although, what's really the point of growable heap? just set dynamic-space-size to some obscene number of GB
2017-04-04T16:30:37Z stassats: relocatable non-contiguous heap would be a better idea
2017-04-04T16:32:31Z nyef: ... So... have the ability to relocate incoming heaps, and the ability to mark certain pages as not (yet?) being allocated to lisp...?
2017-04-04T16:32:53Z nyef: That would tend to solve quite a few problems, I think.
2017-04-04T16:34:11Z stassats: we already mark unused pages
2017-04-04T16:35:16Z nyef: Are these "unused" pages available for the OS to use when loading shared objects, allocating thread stacks, and the like?
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2017-04-04T16:35:41Z stassats: there's enough space for that
2017-04-04T16:36:08Z scymtym_: stassats: with large dynamic space sizes, a simple mistake can render the machine unresponsive if swap is enabled. i think that is the motivation for growable heap or soft limit (continuable heap exhausted error)
2017-04-04T16:36:48Z stassats: scymtym_: fixed dynamic space already is a kind of a limit
2017-04-04T16:38:52Z scymtym_: stassats: sure, but currently it stops everything - simple mistakes as well as deliberate computations that need more dynamic space than foreseen
2017-04-04T16:38:57Z nyef: Basically, track the *entire* address space, but don't pre-allocate.
2017-04-04T16:39:43Z stassats: scymtym_: i usually just set it to a couple of gigabytes under RAM size
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2017-04-04T16:40:44Z stassats: but the GC is so dumb currently, this is a non issue
2017-04-04T16:40:52Z scymtym_: stassats: i'm not saying we need one or the other, but i have heard this motivation, iirc in the context of R or racket
2017-04-04T16:41:08Z stassats: make collection strategy smarter, then growable heap can be a priority
2017-04-04T16:41:50Z scymtym_: gc trigger conditions seem odd
2017-04-04T16:44:39Z stassats: it seems that either things became broken over the years or it's just some inaccurate translation from some GC book
2017-04-04T16:46:05Z nyef: Could easily have been both: An inaccurate translation to start with, followed by becoming more broken over the years.
2017-04-04T16:46:16Z stassats: or it wasn't designed for gigabyte heaps
2017-04-04T16:46:33Z stassats: i'm yet to see generations 3-4 to be ever used
2017-04-04T16:47:01Z stassats: perhaps there's a disconnect between large objects and heap size
2017-04-04T16:47:18Z nyef: Given that it was designed in an era where having more than two gigabytes of address space was basically unheard of, and that much RAM in a single system was *definitely* unheard of...
2017-04-04T16:48:07Z stassats: i knew that gencgc was bad, but now that i took a closer look, i now see that it's really bad
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2017-04-04T17:05:37Z pkhuong: I wonder how much heap we'd need to bootstrap if GC was a no-op.
2017-04-04T17:06:07Z stassats: i can try that
2017-04-04T17:06:40Z pkhuong: that'd be an interesting way to write a clean slate GC (:
2017-04-04T17:06:49Z stassats: both for the host and for make-target-2?
2017-04-04T17:07:14Z pkhuong: host must be huge and is less interesting from a GC hack pov
2017-04-04T17:07:17Z foom: stassats: Yes, it's *really* bad, and has been for the entire time I've been working with it
2017-04-04T17:08:02Z stassats: pkhuong: so you want a lisp GC?
2017-04-04T17:08:33Z pkhuong: stassats: no, I just remember trying to work on GC and having to maintain a working gencgc while doing so made my life really hard
2017-04-04T17:08:58Z pkhuong: so maybe the NIL (?) approach of starting with a blank GC and adding stuff to it would be more productive.
2017-04-04T17:12:01Z stassats: pkhuong: the default heap size is enough
2017-04-04T17:12:10Z stassats: for make-target-2
2017-04-04T17:13:06Z pkhuong: nice. I bet the non-GC tests aren't that bad either.
2017-04-04T17:16:01Z stassats: most of contribs survive, except for sb-sprof (that tests consing) and sb-gmp
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2017-04-04T18:05:22Z scymtym_: stassats: some bug reports with non-empty generations > 2: http://paste.lisp.org/display/343482
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2017-04-04T18:15:30Z stassats: scymtym_: manual sb-ext:gc can move stuff there
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2017-04-04T18:48:44Z foom: stassats: you can get stuff there in normal operation
2017-04-04T18:49:28Z stassats: i see in the code that you can, but it has to be quite specific
2017-04-04T18:51:06Z foom: We used to see horrible behavior in qpx sometimes from stuff getting into the old generations, before we gave up and just limited oldest-gen-to-gc to 2.
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2017-04-04T18:52:32Z stassats: things rarely get promoted, and something from an old gen pointing to a young gen has to be scavenged every time
2017-04-04T18:53:04Z foom: yep, and that never gets unset
2017-04-04T18:53:23Z stassats: and sb-ext:gc :full t is evil
2017-04-04T18:53:25Z foom: anything in an old gen that has ever even once been touched after being promoted is stuck getting scanned every damn time for eternity
2017-04-04T18:53:44Z stassats: it pushes stuff to gen 5 and any young pointer is basically stuck being always scavenged
2017-04-04T18:53:52Z foom: this is especially bad for stuff in the image, too.
2017-04-04T18:54:04Z stassats: yeah, image stuff goes to gen 6, even worse
2017-04-04T18:54:21Z foom: Basically the whole generational gc mechanism is busted. :)
2017-04-04T18:55:12Z stassats: yeah, only "new allocations are short lived" hypothesis works, do anything else and you're in trouble
2017-04-04T18:56:18Z stassats: it's probably a tuning problem, so it really should be self tuning
2017-04-04T18:56:48Z stassats: with some more modern defaults
2017-04-04T19:05:02Z foom: That the image isn't logically in an old-generation is also a serious deficiency, I think
2017-04-04T19:05:14Z foom: At least, combined with the fact that there's only 1 bit for "points to younger gen"
2017-04-04T19:06:18Z foom: As is, ephemeral scans are so slow they're effectively useless.
2017-04-04T19:06:32Z stassats: i think three generations would do and some auto tuned trigger points
2017-04-04T19:06:48Z stassats: but there should be literature on that
2017-04-04T19:07:35Z foom: If a bunch of stuff in the image gets written to even once, you pay for that forever after, with no way to recover.
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2017-04-04T19:14:50Z nyef: Too bad the GC can't notice "hey, there's no young pointer on this page anymore, we should be able to reprotect it now."
2017-04-04T19:15:40Z foom: I mean, it totally could. I think ccl's does that?
2017-04-04T19:15:46Z stassats: nyef: but it does
2017-04-04T19:16:19Z stassats: in update_page_write_prot()
2017-04-04T19:16:58Z foom: oh, neat. So if the image gen was not a separate gen, that could actually work
2017-04-04T19:17:11Z stassats: it can't _notice_, but it does after scavenging
2017-04-04T19:23:28Z stassats: i think if something is pointed from an older generation should just get promoted to that generation
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2017-04-04T19:44:18Z foom: This probably pessimizes the usage where you have old/permanent objects that are frequently mutated to point to different new objects all the time.
2017-04-04T19:45:18Z foom: I think ideally it'd be able to tell that an object in gen3 points to gen2, but doesn't point to gen0.
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2017-04-04T19:52:07Z nyef: So... accumulate a "youngest outbound pointer generation" for each boxed page?
2017-04-04T19:52:46Z nyef: Possibly cleared when the WP is tripped, and updated when the page is scavenged?
2017-04-04T19:58:33Z foom: Yea, then you just have to worry about whether it's too slow to be setting/resetting the WP bit more frequently.
2017-04-04T19:59:43Z foom: Maybe you don't want to do that on every gen0 gc, because it might be likely that the page grows a new gen0 pointer real soon after.
2017-04-04T20:25:17Z stassats: software write barriers would help
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2017-04-04T21:55:35Z aeth: w/wii Shinmera
2017-04-04T21:55:38Z aeth: oops
2017-04-04T21:56:02Z aeth: /wii is whois + last active
2017-04-04T21:56:34Z aeth: I was trying to see if you were in more channels than #sbcl because this is sort of off-topic
2017-04-04T21:56:53Z aeth: Shinmera: Is your engine in the list of resources here and if it isn't, do you want it to be added? https://itch.io/jam/lisp-game-jam-2017-easy-mode
2017-04-04T21:57:14Z stassats: there are private messages, you know
2017-04-04T21:57:38Z aeth: stassats: yes, but I accidentally spoke in this channel when I was trying to enter a command so I already accidentally dragged this off topic.
2017-04-04T21:58:18Z stassats: you should have just stopped at "oops"
2017-04-04T21:58:47Z aeth: yes
2017-04-04T21:58:58Z aeth: hindsight is 20/20
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2017-04-04T22:24:56Z Shinmera: aeth: No, and no.
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2017-04-05T07:35:40Z scymtym: dougk_: build failure and memory fault in hopscotch-hash test fixed on x86, memory fault remains on macos and x86_64 linux
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2017-04-05T18:10:27Z dougk_: scymtym: thanks. fwiw, the random tester is actually doing its job! it only *sometimes* fails for me, so i have a definite bug in the algorithm
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2017-04-05T18:57:47Z dougk_: scymtym: i understand why the test was more failure-prone on x86-64, and I think I've worked around that in the test. The table is actually doing what it's supposed to
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2017-04-05T21:43:06Z borodust: o/
2017-04-05T21:44:42Z borodust: what should i start looking for when after setting a breakpoint with (break) and (declaim (optimize (debug 3))) i'm receiving "bogus stack frame"?
2017-04-05T21:45:10Z borodust: no foreign code involved
2017-04-05T21:45:16Z borodust: (i think)
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2017-04-05T21:47:52Z borodust: stack looks like this: https://gist.github.com/borodust/a39206eb8ab74a5927e2a9902c2ee341
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2017-04-05T22:13:18Z borodust: alright, that apparently related to hijacking main thread with trivial-main-thread
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2017-04-05T22:15:24Z |3b|: problem with above backtrace is that the code was running inside INTERRUPT-THREAD, is that expected to break backtraces?
2017-04-05T22:16:24Z |3b|: also, is running complicated/long-running things inside interrupt-thread a problem in general?
2017-04-05T22:18:52Z fe[nl]ix: maybe & yes
2017-04-05T22:19:10Z |3b|: how bad is it?
2017-04-05T22:21:18Z stassats: "no foreign code involved" SB-SYS:WAIT-UNTIL-FD-USABLE is certainly foreign code
2017-04-05T22:21:43Z fe[nl]ix: |3b|: don't use it for anything other than debugging
2017-04-05T22:21:49Z stassats: why are you interrupting the repl and expecting something?
2017-04-05T22:21:57Z |3b|: osx :/
2017-04-05T22:22:30Z |3b|: people are using interrupt-thread to make sure GUI/OpenGL code runs on first thread, since anything else doesn't work on osx
2017-04-05T22:22:45Z |3b| is wondering is that practice should be discouraged, and sounds like it should
2017-04-05T22:22:54Z fe[nl]ix: whisky tango foxtrot
2017-04-05T22:23:23Z stassats: |3b|: yes, discouraged
2017-04-05T22:24:58Z stassats: and especially for something where it's not needed
2017-04-05T22:25:51Z nyef: You know what would work for making sure code runs on the first thread in OSX? Explicitly starting, on that first thread, a dispatcher for running arbitrary code.
2017-04-05T22:25:52Z |3b|: well, if it were safe it would make things more convenient in slime (unless you know some way to run UI stuff on other threads on osx)
2017-04-05T22:26:05Z |3b|: nyef: yeah, that was the fix for the backtrrace problem
2017-04-05T22:27:16Z |3b| wonders if bordeaux-threads docs should be more explicit about using interrupt-thread being a bad idea
2017-04-05T22:27:43Z stassats: that should be self-evident
2017-04-05T22:27:58Z stassats: either interrupt-thread is not immediate or it's breaking things
2017-04-05T22:28:04Z stassats: neither works for anything
2017-04-05T22:28:47Z |3b| thinks the 'breaking things' isn't as obvious to people who don't know implementation details, if the thread being interrupted is just sitting at an unused repl
2017-04-05T22:29:28Z stassats: a thread sitting in an unused repl... then you don't need interrupt-thread
2017-04-05T22:30:10Z |3b|: you don't /need/ it, but it makes 1 fewer manual step for people trying to run the code (or develop using the library)
2017-04-05T22:31:06Z |3b|: (and one people would probably miss, because who reads docs or error messages)
2017-04-05T22:31:56Z stassats: you can't really come up with interrupt-thread on your own either
2017-04-05T22:32:18Z stassats: so if the docs are suggesting it, they can also stop suggesting it
2017-04-05T22:32:50Z |3b|: no, UI wrapper libs are adding it so their users doing have to manually start something in main thread
2017-04-05T22:33:24Z |3b|: so the people who need to run things in main thread are not the ones adding the code to call interrupt-thread
2017-04-05T22:33:54Z |3b|: which is why i was trying to determine if i should tell them to stop doing that :)
2017-04-05T22:37:09Z |3b|: so official #sbcl advice is "don't use interrupt-thread for more than debugging even if it is just an idle repl being interrupted"?
2017-04-05T22:37:35Z stassats: that's applicable to any implementation
2017-04-05T22:39:27Z stassats: or rather, it's applicable to all modern OSes and C runtimes, lisp can't circumvent that
2017-04-05T22:40:30Z |3b|: Shinmera: ^ see above discussion, should i file an issue about it for trivial-main-thread?
2017-04-05T22:42:20Z fe[nl]ix: I think ccl is always multi-threaded and has a dispatcher running on the main thread. even in a terminal, the repl is running in a secondary thread
2017-04-05T22:55:47Z |3b|: i think ccl devs have suggested something like https://github.com/Clozure/ccl/blob/master/examples/opengl-ffi.lisp#L114 so possibly that specific case might be OK on ccl
2017-04-05T22:56:12Z |3b| isn't sure if that is doing the same thing or not
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2017-04-06T00:14:38Z |3b| fails to build windows sbcl, hopscotch.c includes <pthread.h> directly, which conflicts with "pthreads_win32.h", and if i change that, i get " The variable *TARGET-OBJECT-FILE-NAMES* is unbound." from make-host-2.lisp
2017-04-06T00:18:17Z |3b|: latter possibly due to READ error in src/code/unix.lisp
2017-04-06T00:19:15Z |3b|: #-win32 instead of #!-win32?
2017-04-06T00:19:31Z stassats: how is thins not caught?
2017-04-06T00:29:43Z |3b| suspects catching that last one is what "ideally we wouldn't use *SHEBANG-FEATURES* but *ALL-POSSIBLE-SHEBANG-FEATURES*, but maintaining that variable will not be easy." in shebang.lisp is talking about
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2017-04-06T00:42:22Z |3b|: and now "no size function for object at 0000001001BA70D0 (widetag 0x1)" from make-target-2.sh
2017-04-06T00:42:34Z |3b|: (after "//doing warm init - compilation phase")
2017-04-06T00:42:44Z stassats: 0x1 is a forwarding pointer
2017-04-06T00:47:26Z |3b|: ldb segfaults if i try to backtrace from that
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2017-04-06T06:23:37Z Shinmera: |3b|: I'm aware of the issues, but I'm not aware of any other solutions, so I don't know how much filing an issue for it would help.
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2017-04-06T14:53:49Z scymtym__: any objects to http://paste.lisp.org/display/343642 ?
2017-04-06T14:53:58Z scymtym__: s/objects/objections/
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2017-04-06T14:56:01Z nyef: My primary objection is pandering to SLIME. That variable should have died eleven years ago.
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2017-04-06T16:02:20Z stassats: nyef: when there was a years old tarball and some stuff in cvs?
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2017-04-06T16:07:12Z nyef: ... when has SBCL ever gone without a new release tarball for years?
2017-04-06T16:07:23Z stassats: slime
2017-04-06T16:33:45Z |3b|: should i file bugs for the other 2 windows build failures? (wrong pthreads header in hopscotch.c, and 'no size function for object ... (widetag 0x1)')
2017-04-06T16:34:53Z |3b|: and any suggestions for further debugging on the widetag one?
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2017-04-06T19:10:37Z dougk_: can I get a review of https://sourceforge.net/p/sbcl/sbcl/ci/43b2bfefb1a852fd17c8d8f6809b39cfea4aa16a from someone? It seems to cause a rare failure where we call scav_other_pointer and the word pointed to is a fixnum
2017-04-06T19:12:42Z stassats: dougk_: 32-bit or 64-bit?
2017-04-06T19:12:58Z dougk_: 64-bit
2017-04-06T19:13:40Z dougk_: i'm going to try my test that involves waiting >1 hours for a failure, with that change reverted
2017-04-06T19:18:33Z nyef: dougk_: 64-bit short-float?
2017-04-06T19:19:13Z nyef: Hrm, no, that should devolve to CONS by way of scavtab.
2017-04-06T19:19:39Z nyef: (single-float, not short-float, anyway, right?)
2017-04-06T19:19:50Z dougk_: right
2017-04-06T19:20:21Z dougk_: the interesting thing about size_immediate is that I actually think it should return 2 also.
2017-04-06T19:20:45Z dougk_: the dispatch table is saying "given this widetag, what is the function to call to size the object on the heap whose 0th word contains that widetag"
2017-04-06T19:21:14Z dougk_: it's not actually asking about the size of the immediate. i.e. why should size_immediate by any different from size_anything_else in what it means when called on a heap object?
2017-04-06T19:22:04Z dougk_: except that it used to have to return 1 so that we'd step through single words correctly. i wonder if this is about something on the binding stack
2017-04-06T19:27:31Z nyef: Umm... This patch, and the code it affects is pretty scary.
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2017-04-06T19:28:15Z nyef: What is the criteria for pointerness on 32-bit vs. 64-bit, what is the criteria for other-immediateness on 32-bit vs. 64-bit, and what is the structure of a forwarding-pointer?
2017-04-06T19:29:49Z stassats: on 64-bit, other_immediate_lowtag_p will return true on a forwarding pointer
2017-04-06T19:30:11Z stassats: not on 32-bit, though
2017-04-06T19:30:24Z nyef: And it overwrites the header word and the one following.
2017-04-06T19:31:35Z stassats: and scavtab for 0x1 is scav_immediate
2017-04-06T19:31:51Z nyef: That last seems odd?
2017-04-06T19:32:17Z nyef: Hrm.
2017-04-06T19:32:33Z nyef: Shouldn't be any forwarding pointers in newspace anyway, and scavenge shouldn't be called on oldspace?
2017-04-06T19:33:21Z stassats: heap_scavenge is called on unprotected older spaces
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2017-04-06T19:35:36Z nyef: "older" as in generational, or "older" as in "space being evacuated this GC cycle"?
2017-04-06T19:36:02Z stassats: generational
2017-04-06T19:36:18Z stassats: so you mean fromspace?
2017-04-06T19:36:36Z nyef: Yeah, "fromspace".
2017-04-06T19:37:02Z nyef: My GC model still has terms in it from using a cheney or baker twospace system.
2017-04-06T19:39:33Z dougk_: it doesn't help any that my commit message is wrong. It means "conses" where it says "non-conses"
2017-04-06T19:40:19Z dougk_: the theory behind it is that on the heap you should *always* be able to dispatch to scavtab[], you never "need" to handle the other cases by case-by-case analysis; it's just that it's an optimization to do so
2017-04-06T19:40:30Z dougk_: however, it is not an optimization to do *three* cases where two suffice
2017-04-06T19:40:46Z dougk_: because most heap objects are instances and vectors, therefore, most cases will dispatch through scavtab[] anyway
2017-04-06T19:42:22Z nyef: Where is scavtab[] initialized these days?
2017-04-06T19:42:31Z dougk_: gc-tables.h
2017-04-06T19:42:31Z stassats: genesis/gc-tables.h
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2017-04-06T19:50:01Z nyef: Yeah, I've got nothing.
2017-04-06T19:52:01Z nyef: It's been long enough since I've messed with this stuff at this level that I've paged out most of the details that haven't already been changed anyway. /-:
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2017-04-06T21:04:37Z dougk_: for those following along: my bisection itself is suspect because the failure mode is flaky. I am starting all over to bisect with more test iterations
2017-04-06T21:05:11Z dougk_: (for want of a correctly placed "git bisect bad", the battle was lost)
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2017-04-06T22:30:05Z |3b|: bisected the (widetag 0x1) thing, apparently 'long' isn't long enough on windows
2017-04-06T22:30:18Z stassats: true
2017-04-06T22:30:52Z |3b| filed https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1680622 with details on that and the pthreads.h one
2017-04-06T22:32:38Z stassats: 1LU should be (uword_t)1
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2017-04-07T15:09:53Z sjl: Should SBCL be able to eliminate check-type's for inlined functions?  e.g. in http://paste.stevelosh.com/58e7ab67ba373f000884a4c9 the function gets inlined correctly, but still has a check-type in the disassembly...
2017-04-07T15:09:58Z sjl: or am I doing something wrong here?
2017-04-07T15:29:51Z Guest2941: check type has an assignment in a loop. constraint propagation won't be able to deal with that until it's rewritten
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2017-04-07T15:30:39Z sjl: ah
2017-04-07T15:32:58Z sjl: I think I'll probably just make a compiler macro for this thing to handle the fast case and use an assert for everything else
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2017-04-09T19:07:10Z fiveop: (compile nil (lambda () (let* ((a) (a)) (declare (ignorable a))))) yields a style warning that A is defined but never used
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2017-04-09T19:08:58Z nyef: fiveop: Yes, because while A was declared to be ignorable, A wasn't.
2017-04-09T19:09:15Z nyef: fiveop: Note what happens if you try it with LET instead of LET*.
2017-04-09T19:09:27Z fiveop: I get an error, I know.
2017-04-09T19:09:31Z fiveop: But A is A
2017-04-09T19:11:04Z nyef: Okay, that does get to seeming a bit odd, expecially if you (DECLARE (IGNORE A)).
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2017-04-10T02:38:49Z npatrick04: Should I compile SBCL for Windows on Cygwin, MinGW, or something else?
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2017-04-10T15:24:24Z dougk_: csziacobus: there are more pressing issues in the clos implementation than getting it to cross-compile. For example, that all method bodies get pre-walked to decide where slot-value is called, rather than letting IR1 figure it out.
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2017-04-11T01:11:50Z csziacobus: dougk__: If cross-compiling pcl is a worthwhile goal, doesn't it make more sense to cross compile it first before integrating it more tightly with the compiler? Otherwise, it could get harder to deal with not relying on target-only compiler machinery. But maybe the host can handle enough of IR1 without that being a problem.
2017-04-11T01:14:29Z stassats: it shouldn't be integrated into the compiler
2017-04-11T01:14:39Z stassats: it can use the stuff the compiler already does
2017-04-11T01:14:45Z stassats: but the compiler itself shouldn't use pcl
2017-04-11T01:15:03Z nyef: It should be intergrated into the compiler, so that the compiler knows how to optimize it properly, but the compiler shouldn't use it internally.
2017-04-11T01:15:30Z stassats: so it doesn't matter when it's compiled
2017-04-11T01:16:01Z nyef: Right. Which makes the two aspects orthogonal, pretty much.
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2017-04-11T01:17:25Z stassats: moreover, it would have to be really portable to run in xc
2017-04-11T01:17:38Z stassats: i'd say compiling pcl in host-2 is basically a waste of time
2017-04-11T01:18:29Z nyef: I'm not so sure that it's a waste of time, but I think that there's easier and bigger wins out there.
2017-04-11T01:18:30Z csziacobus: what i have right now is pcl completely bootstrapped in host-1
2017-04-11T01:19:09Z csziacobus: it could get rid of a lot of kludges with respect to bootstrapping conditions and stuff like trivial defmthod
2017-04-11T01:19:45Z csziacobus: theres no need for setting up fake predicates and classoids in the cross compiler
2017-04-11T01:20:04Z stassats: that gains nothing
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2017-04-11T01:20:09Z stassats: it's already there
2017-04-11T01:20:25Z csziacobus: i think maintenance is not a worthless goal
2017-04-11T01:21:12Z csziacobus: i dont think that pcl itself is fast enough to be used in the compiler, but imo it would making bootstrapping of certain aspects of the system more clear
2017-04-11T01:22:22Z nyef: It's not a question of PCL being fast enough to use in the compiler, it's a question of needing to use the compiler to build somethingorother in order to do something in PCL in order to run the compiler in order to build somethingorother in order to do something in PCL in order to run the compiler in order to...
2017-04-11T01:22:29Z stassats: rewriting sbcl from scratch will make a lot of things clear, yet nobody's willing to do it
2017-04-11T01:22:54Z stassats: this will only increase maintenance and require thorough audit
2017-04-11T01:23:50Z csziacobus: well by that logic nobody should ever introduce improvements to sbcl if maintaining the status quo would make things easier
2017-04-11T01:23:55Z stassats: i'm never going to merge that and will be strongly against it getting merged
2017-04-11T01:24:25Z csziacobus: there are comments littered throughout the compiler that it would simplify bootstrapping logic, and Xof and others have tried to accomplish something similar
2017-04-11T01:24:28Z csziacobus: but i agree
2017-04-11T01:24:34Z csziacobus: it would not be a small change
2017-04-11T01:25:44Z stassats: breaking things to get nothing in return
2017-04-11T01:25:53Z stassats: it will not make things faster, smaller, safer
2017-04-11T01:26:02Z stassats: or make it easier to port
2017-04-11T01:34:08Z csziacobus: i'm curious then, what makes this kind of change less beneficial, than, say, the original move from cmucl to sbcl?
2017-04-11T01:34:38Z csziacobus: my impression was that sbcl had a strong emphasis on maintainability and clear bootstrapping
2017-04-11T01:34:53Z csziacobus: although the project goals may have shifted since the initial fork
2017-04-11T01:44:30Z stassats: this would actually make bootstrapping and porting harder
2017-04-11T01:47:27Z stassats: and of course bootstrapping is not a goal, that would be a silly goal
2017-04-11T01:47:49Z stassats: "hey, what's so good about sbcl?" "oh, it's bootstrappable" "cool..."
2017-04-11T01:48:29Z csziacobus: you'd think the opposite after reading Xof's many attempts to make sure the details of the host didn't leak into the compiler
2017-04-11T01:48:34Z csziacobus: and the emphasis on reproducible builds
2017-04-11T01:49:10Z stassats: there's no emphasis
2017-04-11T01:49:11Z csziacobus: i actually DID think that being buildable from any ANSI CL was a nice thing about sbcl
2017-04-11T01:51:34Z csziacobus: doesn't making bootstrapping easier to reason about make adding changes to aspects of the system also easier?
2017-04-11T01:51:51Z stassats: what changes?
2017-04-11T01:52:27Z csziacobus: well for example from the cmucl to sbcl transition it killed the need for special boot files when structure layouts for compiler internals changed
2017-04-11T01:52:41Z csziacobus: when building was not image mutating anymore
2017-04-11T01:52:57Z csziacobus: of course that doesnt apply in the case of pcl cross compile
2017-04-11T01:54:35Z csziacobus: however i think its conceivable that when theres more of a focus on optimizing pcl, certain changes would require involved changes in the way pcl is set up in the host and cross compiler
2017-04-11T01:54:46Z csziacobus: that would not be necessary if it were all done at cross compile time
2017-04-11T01:55:40Z stassats: the only reason to have pcl in the xc is to have the compiler use clos, which is a dubious thing
2017-04-11T01:56:16Z csziacobus: my impression were that there were a couple handrolled object systems in sbcl which could use clos
2017-04-11T01:56:24Z stassats: how does optimizing pcl required it being built in host-1?
2017-04-11T01:57:18Z csziacobus: well, its impossible to bootstrap pcl in host-2 because the way pcl bootstraps itself calls the compiler to set up the class hierarchy
2017-04-11T01:57:47Z csziacobus: so the only option is to prebootstrap pcl in host-1 and dump everything
2017-04-11T01:58:19Z stassats: ok, i'm going to stop myself, since this discussion is wasting my time too
2017-04-11T01:58:35Z stassats: i don't want to ponder some theoretical niceties and aesthetics
2017-04-11T01:58:43Z csziacobus: ok
2017-04-11T01:59:03Z stassats: it has to make things faster, safer or smaller to be worthwile
2017-04-11T01:59:49Z stassats: or make it easier to port, but requiring pcl only makes for more things to be ported before it can run
2017-04-11T02:02:45Z stassats: it might've been ok if it had been done this way from the start, but everything is already in place and working
2017-04-11T02:03:15Z csziacobus: raison d'etre for cmucl -> sbcl?
2017-04-11T02:04:08Z stassats: there are bigger problems with pcl, like that invalidation badness
2017-04-11T02:04:24Z stassats: csziacobus: cmucl is still alive and well
2017-04-11T02:05:01Z csziacobus: never said it wasn't, although all the reasons you've given apply equally well to creating sbcl in the first place
2017-04-11T02:05:26Z stassats: not really...
2017-04-11T02:05:37Z csziacobus: if you're arguing that sbcl shouldn't have been created and things would've been better just focusing on cmucl since everything was working already with regards to bootstrapping
2017-04-11T02:05:44Z csziacobus: that would be consistent
2017-04-11T02:06:54Z stassats: i have no idea why you're steering it towards cmucl, this is 17 years later and about sbcl
2017-04-11T02:09:00Z stassats: now that you're familiar with pcl, consider fixing https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1153309
2017-04-11T02:11:05Z csziacobus: yeah, i guess if xc pcl is universally agreed to be a bad idea, the exercise did at least give me some insight into how pcl/clos internals work, will take a look
2017-04-11T02:11:14Z stassats: basically it's because layout invalidation can happen in multiple steps which obviously breaks down with parallel things
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2017-04-11T11:17:59Z flip214: I could add a test to tests/compiler.impure.lisp to trigger the bad type derivation ((values) doesn't match (members T NIL), but it does),
2017-04-11T11:18:13Z flip214: and I found the responsible function cast-check-uses...
2017-04-11T11:18:42Z flip214: but I have no idea what the correct fix would be.
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2017-04-11T11:27:43Z flip214: see https://github.com/phmarek/sbcl for two commits... one small fix, and the failing test.
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2017-04-12T10:45:29Z phoe: (setf (documentation 'bar 'function) "asgfasdfs")
2017-04-12T10:45:56Z phoe: the documentation SETFed in such a way is not modifiable in any way
2017-04-12T10:46:12Z phoe: (setf (documentation 'bar 'function) nil)
2017-04-12T10:46:20Z phoe: (documentation 'bar 'function) ;=> "asgfasdfs"
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2017-04-12T11:17:41Z scymtym: phoe: can't reproduce in neither 1.3.14.debian nor HEAD. which SBCL version are you using? in your test case, is BAR defined as a global function?
2017-04-12T11:19:00Z phoe: scymtym: 1.3.14.debian
2017-04-12T11:19:41Z phoe: give me a second
2017-04-12T11:21:03Z phoe: scymtym: a different flow
2017-04-12T11:21:04Z phoe: (setf (documentation 'foo 'function) "asfdsf")
2017-04-12T11:21:12Z phoe: (defun foo () "qqqqq" 3)
2017-04-12T11:21:23Z phoe: (documentation 'foo 'function) ;=> "asfdsf"
2017-04-12T11:21:41Z phoe: (setf (documentation 'foo 'function) "aaaa")
2017-04-12T11:21:45Z phoe: (documentation 'foo 'function) ;=> "asfdsf"
2017-04-12T11:22:10Z phoe: https://i.imgtc.com/JKYi35z.png
2017-04-12T11:22:44Z flip214: That's .... persistency.
2017-04-12T11:22:51Z flip214: try turning if off and on again.
2017-04-12T11:23:54Z scymtym: phoe: i see, thanks
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2017-04-12T11:29:39Z scymtym: phoe: this will probably take a while
2017-04-12T11:34:56Z scymtym: maybe SET-FUNCTION-NAME-DOCUMENTATION can just always clear the random documentation when setting FUN-DOC
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2017-04-12T13:00:12Z phoe: flip214: persistence, yes
2017-04-12T13:00:16Z phoe: I'll gladly opt out of it
2017-04-12T13:00:34Z phoe: scymtym: no problem. It seems to only happen if I SETF DOCUMENTATION before DEFUN.
2017-04-12T13:00:55Z phoe: Or, dunno. Maybe you can check out what works and what works not now that you see what's going on.
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2017-04-12T13:03:45Z scymtym: phoe: i know what happens. the hard part is deciding what should happen instead
2017-04-12T13:04:40Z phoe: scymtym: my intuition is
2017-04-12T13:04:54Z phoe: ...it's hard to define, it, yes
2017-04-12T13:05:21Z phoe: possibly DEFUN should always call SETF DOCUMENTATION as a part of its inner working.
2017-04-12T13:05:44Z phoe: if there is no docstring in the DEFUN, then the old docstring should be neutered
2017-04-12T13:06:16Z phoe: (setf (documentation 'foo 'function) "Add 1 to x.") (defun foo (x) (+ x 1))
2017-04-12T13:06:45Z phoe: but then (defun foo (x) "Add 100 to x." (+ x 100))
2017-04-12T13:06:50Z phoe: you redefine the function
2017-04-12T13:06:54Z phoe: and need to redefine the documentation
2017-04-12T13:07:14Z phoe: even (defun foo (x) (+ x 100)) will work better by neutering the documentation altogether since it's no longer valid
2017-04-12T13:07:54Z stassats: (defun foo (x) (+ x 100)) must not clear documentation
2017-04-12T13:10:42Z phoe: stassats: is it specified somewhere?
2017-04-12T13:11:38Z phoe: stassats: also, it clears documentation. see http://paste.lisp.org/display/344130
2017-04-12T13:12:12Z stassats: it doesn't clear it if your first set it with (setf documentation)
2017-04-12T13:12:29Z stassats: and some people seem to like using setf documentation
2017-04-12T13:13:22Z phoe: stassats: it also makes it unmodifiable by any means if I use SETF DOCUMENTATION, which includes further calls to SETF DOCUMENTATION
2017-04-12T13:13:34Z phoe: as I pointed out further above
2017-04-12T13:13:39Z stassats: that's a bug
2017-04-12T13:14:01Z phoe: so basically, if I call SETF DOCUMENTATION, then DEFUN should no longer be able to modify the docstrings.
2017-04-12T13:14:04Z phoe: Am I correct?
2017-04-12T13:14:12Z stassats: no
2017-04-12T13:15:35Z phoe: Then I'm confused.
2017-04-12T13:16:25Z stassats: good, let the confusion flow through you
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2017-04-12T13:18:18Z stassats: the standard has misspecified docstrings for functions
2017-04-12T13:18:32Z stassats: by having both 'function and t documentation types
2017-04-12T13:18:51Z phoe: ooh. I missed that, yes.
2017-04-12T13:18:54Z phoe: How do you handle that?
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2017-04-12T13:28:42Z scymtym: a minimal fix would be something like this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/344133
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2017-04-12T14:44:12Z phoe: scymtym: It tells me nothing as I'm not used to reading SBCL internals - but thank you.
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2017-04-12T17:17:39Z gigamonkey: I'm experiencing, I think, this bug: Ah, just found this https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1678347
2017-04-12T17:18:08Z gigamonkey: The fix is committed but I'm guessing it's not in the 1.3.16 source distribution I just downloaded?
2017-04-12T17:18:23Z stassats: nope
2017-04-12T17:19:40Z gigamonkey: I couldn't seem to see the fix without logging into some Ubuntu One thing.
2017-04-12T17:19:45Z gigamonkey: Can I get it from github?
2017-04-12T17:20:31Z gigamonkey: Or, alternatively, if I have a newer mac where I successfully built 1.3.16, is there some easy way to build my own binary distribution to copy over to this older mac?
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2017-04-12T17:22:50Z foom: Sure, there's a git link on the same site as the source tarball
2017-04-12T17:23:08Z foom: "git clone git://git.code.sf.net/p/sbcl/sbcl", for your convenience.
2017-04-12T17:24:31Z gigamonkey: Cool. Thanks.
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2017-04-12T18:45:46Z flip214: stassats: thanks for the quick reaction on #1682190.
2017-04-12T18:46:19Z flip214: but that currently breaks compilation of bordeaux-threads...
2017-04-12T18:47:37Z stassats: that's bordeaux-threads fault then
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2017-04-12T19:01:29Z nyef: Mmm. They are distinctly different as viewed by MULTIPLE-VALUE-LIST, while "normal" value semantics amount to doing a MULTIPLE-VALUE-BIND for one value, and that defaults unsupplied values.  I'm not sure if making the distinction is *useful*, but SBCL has a historic tendency to choose correctness over utility anyway... And then often take advantage of the correctness somehow.
2017-04-12T19:03:57Z foom: Hm, unfortunate that sbcl can't catch that error in normal operation.
2017-04-12T19:06:23Z nyef: I think that it might be forbidden to catch the error under normal circumstances, maybe?
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2017-04-12T19:06:42Z stassats: lying about the number of returned values can blow up the stack
2017-04-12T19:07:12Z nyef: There's some weirdness in the CL spec about differentiating between types that may be checked and types that are "merely" to be used for optimization but may not be checked.
2017-04-12T19:10:10Z foom: Wait...does sbcl not typecheck return values against the declaimed function type at all? I thought it did if you declaimed before defining.
2017-04-12T19:11:22Z nyef: I know that there's some weird file-scope return value typechecks, at least, but I'm not sure beyond that.
2017-04-12T19:11:42Z foom: It appears to give a style-warning about the confict, but no runtime type error for this
2017-04-12T19:11:45Z foom: (declaim (optimize (safety 3)))
2017-04-12T19:11:45Z foom: (declaim (ftype (function () fixnum) f))
2017-04-12T19:11:45Z foom: (defun f () nil)
2017-04-12T19:13:54Z stassats: foom: (values nil) does
2017-04-12T19:14:22Z stassats: i guess there's no cast inserted for the return node
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2017-04-12T19:16:05Z foom: Huh. That makes it a WARNING, instead of a STYLE-WARNING, too.
2017-04-12T19:16:24Z stassats: runtime errors produces warnings
2017-04-12T19:18:05Z foom: Well, sure, that makes sense. But that would seem to indicate that there's a second code-path to NOT emit a runtime error, but still emit a style-warning, which seems odd. :)
2017-04-12T19:18:25Z stassats: the sources are different
2017-04-12T19:18:35Z stassats: of the warnings
2017-04-12T19:18:40Z nyef: So... we should be inserting casts for RETURN during IR1-conversion, and letting the optimizer strip them out again if it can?
2017-04-12T19:18:52Z stassats: which is weird
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2017-04-12T19:26:25Z stassats: at the time ASSERT-DEFINITION-TYPE is run the type of the RETURN is NULL for just NIL and * for (values nil)
2017-04-12T19:27:05Z stassats: so it already sees the conflict and stops
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2017-04-12T19:29:13Z stassats: ok, that's easy, but the runtime error is silly Value set [NIL] from NIL in #'(NAMED-LAMBDA F NIL (BLOCK F NIL)) is not of type (VALUES FIXNUM &REST T).
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2017-04-12T19:39:48Z pjstirling: hi, I've been using sb-ext:process-alive-p to try to identify which child process died but it seems to return nil even while the xfce4-terminal is still visible and interactable
2017-04-12T19:45:16Z stassats: made (defun f (x) x) to say 'The value A is not of type FIXNUM _from the function type declaration._'
2017-04-12T19:45:40Z stassats: now for a better compile-time detected runtime error
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2017-04-12T20:01:40Z stassats: Values [NIL] from NIL in #'(NAMED-LAMBDA F NIL (BLOCK F NIL)) is not of the declared return type of the function (VALUES FIXNUM &REST T).
2017-04-12T20:01:45Z stassats: should make things clearer
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2017-04-12T20:43:37Z stassats: pushed, expecting some things to break, which is good
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2017-04-13T09:55:54Z shrdlu68: Hi. Does the latest stable release support powerpc??
2017-04-13T09:56:52Z shrdlu68: I could try to build it.
2017-04-13T09:57:34Z shrdlu68: Oh, yeah. Just saw http://www.sbcl.org/platform-table.html
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2017-04-13T10:01:36Z shrdlu68: I'm getting this error on powerpc: http://paste.lisp.org/+7DKU
2017-04-13T10:03:15Z shrdlu68: Am I missing asdf or something?
2017-04-13T10:03:49Z shrdlu68: memo me, I'll be back
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2017-04-14T21:42:34Z tizoc: hello
2017-04-14T21:42:40Z phoe: hello
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2017-04-14T21:44:04Z tizoc: I'm trying to make Shen (http://shenlanguage.org/) work on the latest version of SBCL on Windows, but I'm having some issues when reading input from the terminal
2017-04-14T21:44:59Z tizoc: SBCL changed STDIN in 1.1.2 to use UCS-2 encoding, but the Shen REPL doesn't expect multibyte input
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2017-04-14T21:46:49Z tizoc: is there any way to change STDIN back to a single byte encoding? (I tried to create a new stdin stream, by closing *standard-input* and creating a new one using a combination of sb-sys:make-fd-stream and sb-win32:get-osfhandle, but I get a permission denied error when trying to read from it)
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2017-04-14T21:47:18Z stassats: it uses whatever codepage the console has
2017-04-14T21:48:19Z stassats: and stepping back, why does shen care?
2017-04-14T21:49:20Z tizoc: it does read input byte by byte, and the parser works on a stream of bytes, not characters
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2017-04-14T21:49:37Z stassats: well, that's a silly thing to do
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2017-04-14T21:54:11Z tizoc: I tried changing the codepage to 65001 in the console using chcp, but stream-external-format still returns ucs-2le for stdin
2017-04-14T21:55:21Z tizoc: and from what I have seen in sbcl's sources when trying to figure out when unicode support was added on windows, it is hardcoded
2017-04-14T21:56:55Z tizoc: anyway, the byte-based parser is how things are, that was not implemented by me and I'm not sure if I can change that (yet), so for now what I'm trying to do is to change stdin's encoding (I don't know if thats possible at all)
2017-04-14T21:58:03Z tizoc: the alternative is to wrap the stream and make it behave as if it were single-byte, it is not ideal, but better than nothing
2017-04-14T21:59:41Z stassats: the shen repl should just be fixed to use characters
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2017-04-14T22:47:32Z tizoc: stassats: not every platform has a character datatype, the reason to parse bytes instead of "chars" is portability
2017-04-14T22:47:51Z tizoc: anyway, I was able to work around this, thanks
2017-04-14T22:48:18Z tizoc: (platform = language platform, not just common lisp)
2017-04-14T22:48:44Z stassats: sbcl can't help with unreasonable implementation choices
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2017-04-14T23:02:52Z tizoc: oh, I'm pretty sure it can, otherwise it would not run on any machine, and up to 1.1.1 it did what I was trying to do earlier today
2017-04-14T23:03:06Z tizoc: what doesn't help is a bunch of snarky remarks, you should get that checked
2017-04-14T23:03:57Z nyef`: Every so often, I regret something in my past. Today, that thing appears to be doing the original Win32 port of SBCL.
2017-04-14T23:04:24Z stassats: nyef`: somebody had to do it
2017-04-14T23:04:54Z nyef`: No, we could have left bloody well enough alone. A non-unix host environment was very definitely out-of-scope.
2017-04-14T23:06:01Z tizoc: it is even worse when you are not a windows user yourself (thats my situation right now)
2017-04-14T23:06:59Z stassats: nyef`: the non-threaded port is quite ok
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2017-04-14T23:17:43Z tizoc: bye, have a good weekend
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2017-04-15T04:07:08Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-04-15T05:05:58Z nyef`: dougk__: I figured out what's going on with that double-scavenge thing for boxed registers.
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2017-04-15T11:32:46Z beach: I have version 1.3.11 of SBCL.  When I define a generic function with method combination PROGN, a few methods with PROGN qualifier and one with the :AROUND qualifier, I get no error message, but when I call the function, I do.  It says:
2017-04-15T11:32:47Z beach: The method combination type PROGN was defined with the short form of DEFINE-METHOD-COMBINATION and so requires all methods have either the single qualifier PROGN or the single qualifier :AROUND.
2017-04-15T11:33:20Z beach: But I am a bit tired, so I am probably making some stupid mistake.
2017-04-15T11:39:16Z scymtym: beach: i tried http://paste.lisp.org/display/344332 , i.e. no error, with sbcl 1.3.14. is this similar to what you did?
2017-04-15T11:39:57Z beach: Very similar, except I had :most-specific-last as well.
2017-04-15T11:40:21Z beach: And I had two primary methods.
2017-04-15T11:40:37Z beach: I guess it's time to get a new version of SBCL.
2017-04-15T11:40:39Z beach: Thanks.
2017-04-15T11:40:44Z scymtym: i will add those aspect and see whether i can reproduce the error
2017-04-15T11:41:02Z beach: Let me first see whether your example works here.
2017-04-15T11:41:46Z beach: Hmm, your example passes here.
2017-04-15T11:41:52Z beach: Let me paste mine.
2017-04-15T11:42:16Z scymtym: maybe something about :most-specific-last, then. i will try that
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2017-04-15T11:45:53Z beach: I re-did a similar example and now it seems to work.  Confusing.
2017-04-15T11:46:06Z beach: I must be making a stupid mistake somewhere.  I'll keep you informed.
2017-04-15T11:47:11Z beach: It seems to work now.  Sorry for bothering you.  I have no idea what I did wrong.
2017-04-15T11:47:12Z scymtym: beach: maybe you initially defined one of the methods without qualifiers, then fixed it in the source, but not in the image. you could inspect the generic function to check
2017-04-15T11:47:24Z beach: Yeah, something like that.
2017-04-15T11:47:28Z beach: Thanks for your patience.
2017-04-15T11:48:02Z scymtym: no problem, i almost always make that mistake with PROGN, LIST or APPEND m-c
2017-04-15T11:48:21Z beach: It can happen easily, yes.
2017-04-15T11:48:45Z Shinmera: What's the reason that you always have to add the qualifier for non-default methods anyway?
2017-04-15T11:49:04Z Shinmera: *non-default-method-combinations
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2017-04-16T02:20:52Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-04-16T03:38:17Z akkad: hi
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2017-04-16T15:24:01Z flip214: that's .... quite an early morning, beach. ~3 hours before the sun? have a nice evening, now ... ;)
2017-04-16T15:25:48Z beach: Yeah, a bit early.  It happens.  I had a nap later.
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2017-04-16T18:11:34Z chatter29: hey guys
2017-04-16T18:11:36Z chatter29: allah is doing
2017-04-16T18:11:43Z chatter29: sun is not doing allah is doing
2017-04-16T18:11:45Z chatter29: to accept Islam say that i bear witness that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah and Muhammad peace be upon him is his slave and messenger
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2017-04-17T03:31:14Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-04-17T14:14:36Z pkhuong: dougk_: we're now deploying SBCL images at $WORK; do you know if there's a public example of the way you guys mess with PCL & caches before s-l-a-d?
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2017-04-17T14:27:13Z fe[nl]ix: pkhuong: there isn't because it was thought that there was no chance that the patch would get merged
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2017-04-17T21:38:08Z Xof: so many SBCL deployments
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2017-04-17T21:49:16Z pkhuong: only 2 DC, one continent ;)
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2017-04-17T23:10:20Z akkad: how long do you have sbcl up and running?
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2017-04-18T02:36:25Z White_Flame: I found a bug in our configuration that accidentally set bytes-consed-between-gcs to 128 bytes.  Do you think this would be the cause of occasional out of memory errors, when it otherwise shouldn't be approaching its heap limit?
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2017-04-18T05:07:57Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-04-18T05:32:50Z flip214: beach: good morning! this time there ain't a 10-hour window between us ;)
2017-04-18T05:33:49Z beach: Right. I can't promise to keep that up, though. :)
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2017-04-18T06:09:52Z flip214: Neither can I.
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2017-04-19T02:53:55Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-04-20T04:11:56Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-04-20T04:19:51Z akkad: hi
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2017-04-20T14:46:33Z Vibor: Hi, so when I tried to press Left/Right/Up/Down keys on keyboard, sbcl doesn't bind the keys to behavior, for instance, left would simply give ^[[D , and also names + [TAB] does not auto complete , I wonder why and what might be the solution to make it nicer?
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2017-04-20T14:47:33Z nyef: Vibor: Why? It's a nasty piece of system dependency. How to improve the situation? Use rlwrap.
2017-04-20T14:49:55Z Vibor: nyef: pardon my lack of knowledge, so I installed rlwrap, what then?
2017-04-20T14:50:30Z beach: Vibor: Most people use SLIME with Emacs, so it's a non-issue.
2017-04-20T14:50:42Z nyef: Use rlwrap to run SBCL.
2017-04-20T14:51:42Z beach: Vibor: And that is true, even though nyef is not part of the set "most people". :)
2017-04-20T14:51:43Z nyef: The SLIME+Emacs combination comes highly recommended, but I don't bother with SLIME, and editor preference can be a hotly contested issue.
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2017-04-20T14:53:12Z nyef: The main thing that an editor should provide is automatic paren balancing.  Automatic context-sensitive indentation is also a very-nice-to-have. After those two, all else is gravy.
2017-04-20T14:54:27Z nyef: Paren balancing can be as simple as when the cursor is on one paren, the editor highlights the other.
2017-04-20T14:54:42Z nyef: (Emacs show-paren mode, for example.)
2017-04-20T14:56:32Z Vibor: Actually I haven't used emacs before:p I used a rather less complex vim, I think I will give it a try after your advices
2017-04-20T14:58:41Z nyef: There's apparently a SWANK client for vim, but I have no idea how good it is, and have forgotten the name.
2017-04-20T15:00:07Z beach: Recently, someone in #lisp said it is much inferior to SLIME, but I haven't tried it myself.
2017-04-20T15:00:48Z flip214: I'm using slimv with neovim, and used it with (old) vim previously.
2017-04-20T15:01:09Z flip214: I'm fine with it... though I have to admit I don't know what slime would make possible.
2017-04-20T15:01:37Z flip214: Vibor: slimv and the rainbow parens.
2017-04-20T15:01:52Z flip214: paredit is one thing I (personally) don't like.
2017-04-20T15:02:16Z nyef: Paredit is one thing that I absolutely miss when it turns out not to be installed.
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2017-04-20T16:01:34Z flip214: well, it's included in slimv, and can be enabled or disabled
2017-04-20T16:05:35Z Reinisch: hi all, speaking of slimv, does anyone know how to do the emacs/slime Meta-. command equivalent on vim/slimv?
2017-04-20T16:07:28Z flip214: Reinisch: if you ask me which keybinding does function X, I might be able to help.... but I don't know the emacs bindings.
2017-04-20T16:08:58Z Reinisch: well, I think M-. is something like "symbol-at-point", and I think it takes you to the line/file where the symbol under the cursor is defined
2017-04-20T16:09:45Z Reinisch: and as I understand it, to get something similar in vim, I'll have to increase my knowledge/understanding of ctags or something equivalent
2017-04-20T16:10:18Z Reinisch: I'm hoping someone has already gone through the trouble of figuring this out and I can just piggy-back
2017-04-20T16:10:49Z Reinisch: or even better, maybe slimv somehow already supports this and I just missed it
2017-04-20T16:12:25Z Bike: Reinisch: C-h k M-. to get an actual function name (it's slime-edit-definition)
2017-04-20T16:12:26Z minion: Bike, memo from beach: At some point, could you take a look at this proposed enhancement:  https://github.com/robert-strandh/Concrete-Syntax-Tree/issues/1 to see whether the specification is complete enough, and appropriate?
2017-04-20T16:13:56Z flip214: Reinisch: current slimv asks the swank server for the location.
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2017-04-20T16:14:34Z flip214: ",fd" (find-definition) with long keybindings, or ",j" with short ones.
2017-04-20T16:14:49Z flip214: (jump mnemonic for the latter)
2017-04-20T16:15:29Z flip214: Reinisch: ftplugin/slimv.vim has a nice list of bindings, look for "MenuMap"
2017-04-20T16:23:40Z Reinisch: Oh my goodness... this is incredible.  Thank you for both your answer and for pointing me in the right direction for more information.  Thank you flip214.
2017-04-20T16:24:12Z Reinisch: thank you also for the clarification Bike, 'ppreciate ya!
2017-04-20T16:32:56Z Reinisch: hmmm... doesn't work out of the box on user-defined symbols; gives message "Vim(tjump):E426: tag not found"
2017-04-20T16:33:26Z Reinisch: do you know how to appropriately update the taglist required for this to work?
2017-04-20T16:36:26Z Reinisch: ahh.. perhaps the answer is right in front of me: maybe SlimvGenerateTags()?
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2017-04-20T17:26:39Z flip214: Reinisch: did you download a script? the tags were repaired two days ago (after me reporting bugs); guess there's no new release yet.
2017-04-20T17:27:12Z flip214: Reinisch: you can clone https://github.com/kovisoft/slimv for the working version
2017-04-20T17:28:56Z Reinisch: I didn't download anything special, I've got slimv version 0.9.13 according to the ftplugin/slimv.vim file.
2017-04-20T17:29:21Z Reinisch: and I've been digging into the whole ",]" thing as that's not working for me
2017-04-20T17:29:48Z flip214: yeah, that's a month old ;)
2017-04-20T17:29:51Z Reinisch: error says add ctags to path or define g:slimv_ctags
2017-04-20T17:30:37Z Reinisch: ok, I guess I need to try a `git submodule update --remote slimv` and see where I end up
2017-04-20T17:30:40Z flip214: are you using pathogen?
2017-04-20T17:30:54Z Reinisch: yep, I use pathogen
2017-04-20T17:32:01Z flip214: well, then just clone the repo into your bundle directory
2017-04-20T17:47:06Z Reinisch: flip214: Sorry, I've updated to latest commit (3fde9e7), and I'm still getting an error message when attempting to update the taglist with ",]"
2017-04-20T17:47:44Z Reinisch: message is: Copy ctags to the Vim path or define g:slimv_ctags.
2017-04-20T17:48:47Z Reinisch: but I can't figure out what "the Vim path" is
2017-04-20T17:48:48Z flip214: You don't need that anymore.
2017-04-20T17:49:03Z flip214: I guess /usr/bin/ is meant....
2017-04-20T17:49:22Z flip214: but on Windows the c:\program files\gvim\bin\ etc. is needed, therefore this text
2017-04-20T17:50:13Z flip214: just move the cursor to a function name, and press ,j
2017-04-20T17:52:25Z Reinisch: That works for some things like "in-package" or "defun"; pressing ",j" takes me to those definitions
2017-04-20T17:52:51Z Reinisch: But it doesn't work for things that I have defined in my own project
2017-04-20T17:53:20Z Reinisch: That's why I'm trying to update the taglist with ",]"
2017-04-20T17:53:49Z Reinisch: maybe there is something I don't understand correctly about how this is supposed to work
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2017-04-20T17:58:39Z flip214: did you compile the files, eg. via asdf?
2017-04-20T17:58:53Z flip214: if you only send definitions to swank (and not complete files) it can't store the original location
2017-04-20T18:03:03Z Reinisch: I'm sorry, I don't know what you mean by "compiling files via asdf".
2017-04-20T18:03:26Z flip214: how are you loading your code?
2017-04-20T18:05:04Z Reinisch: I've used slimv options ",D" for compile-defun, ",F" for compile-file, and ",L" for compile-load-file
2017-04-20T18:05:24Z Reinisch: none make jumping work
2017-04-20T18:05:32Z flip214: hmmm, lemme try.
2017-04-20T18:05:47Z flip214: I'll get back to you tomorrow.... or ping me. Guess you're in CET?
2017-04-20T18:05:54Z flip214: CEST, een
2017-04-20T18:05:56Z flip214: *even
2017-04-20T18:06:34Z Reinisch: Yep, well close enough CCT.
2017-04-20T18:06:50Z Reinisch: Thanks for all your help, really appreciate it!
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2017-04-21T03:43:15Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-04-21T03:43:15Z minion: beach, memo from phoe: I'll poke you tomorrow morning, I have a remark about your LispOS paper
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2017-04-21T05:00:34Z flip214: Good morning, beach!
2017-04-21T05:00:56Z flip214: How did the weather work out for the the last few days? We've had 25cm snow here in (parts of) Austria.
2017-04-21T05:10:13Z Lord_Nightmare: lispos? where?
2017-04-21T05:20:58Z flip214: Lord_Nightmare: http://metamodular.com/lispos.pdf
2017-04-21T05:21:15Z Lord_Nightmare: lookin
2017-04-21T05:30:30Z beach: Colleen: do weather Bordeaux
2017-04-21T05:30:31Z Colleen: Unknown command. Possible matches: 8, roll, deny, say, login, time, help, notify, logout, have a,
2017-04-21T05:30:36Z beach: Aww.
2017-04-21T05:30:42Z beach: flip214: It has been very nice.  Max of 22°C or so.  A bit cold in the morning.
2017-04-21T05:31:00Z beach: Sorry to hear about your bad weather.
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2017-04-21T05:37:11Z flip214: beach: good for you...
2017-04-21T05:37:41Z flip214: Let's hope it gets better now.
2017-04-21T05:37:45Z beach: Yeah.
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2017-04-21T06:33:33Z flip214: I also notice that you're arriving here a bit sooner than on #lisp ;)
2017-04-21T06:36:39Z beach: I try to read the scrollbacks first, and there are way more of them in #lisp.
2017-04-21T06:40:21Z Shinmera: Colleen: weather in Bordeaux
2017-04-21T06:40:22Z Colleen: Weather in Bordeaux: Clear at 4°C (feels like 1°C), 51% humidity, 3km/h wind, 1029hPa pressure.
2017-04-21T06:40:35Z beach: Ah, thanks!
2017-04-21T06:44:01Z beach: Shinmera: Oh, and you fixed the excessive precision too.  Nice!
2017-04-21T06:44:18Z Shinmera: Lots of things were fixed, yes.
2017-04-21T06:44:46Z flip214: Colleen: weather on saturn
2017-04-21T06:44:46Z Colleen: Invalid command: There were too many arguments to match (&OPTIONAL SIGNIFIER)
2017-04-21T06:44:54Z flip214: Colleen: weather in vienna
2017-04-21T06:44:54Z Colleen: Weather in Vienna: Clear at 1°C (feels like -4°C), 73% humidity, 6km/h wind, 1031hPa pressure.
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2017-04-21T06:45:24Z nyef: Colleen: Weather in Sol
2017-04-21T06:45:24Z Colleen: Unknown command. Possible matches: weather in, weather, 8, help, deny, say, weather for, update, search, hello,
2017-04-21T06:45:31Z nyef: Hrmph.
2017-04-21T06:45:41Z Shinmera: Ah- case sensitivity. I forgot about that.
2017-04-21T06:45:43Z flip214: hmmm, there are quite a few "Vienna"s. Good to know that it returns the Right One[tm] ;)
2017-04-21T06:45:51Z flip214: Colleen: 8
2017-04-21T06:45:52Z Colleen: Eight.
2017-04-21T06:46:07Z flip214: Colleen: 8
2017-04-21T06:46:07Z Colleen: Eight.
2017-04-21T06:46:13Z flip214: pieces of eight?
2017-04-21T06:47:06Z nyef: Ugh. Quarter of three. G'night all.
2017-04-21T06:47:15Z beach: 'night nyef.
2017-04-21T06:47:17Z Shinmera: It's a joke from the demo game from the Stanley Parable, in which you get a button with "8" written on it. Pressing it does nothing but play the voice sample "eight".
2017-04-21T06:47:20Z Shinmera: Good night, nyef
2017-04-21T06:57:50Z jdz_: Colleen: deny access
2017-04-21T06:57:54Z Colleen: I can't let you do that, jdz_.
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2017-04-21T07:11:59Z flip214: Colleen: help search
2017-04-21T07:12:00Z Colleen: Command Syntax: search &string term
2017-04-21T07:12:00Z Colleen: Documentation:  This searches for a command that approximately matches the given term. It displays a list of up to ten matches, in decreasing order of similarity.
2017-04-21T07:12:08Z flip214: Colleen: help help
2017-04-21T07:12:08Z Colleen: Command Syntax: help &string command
2017-04-21T07:12:08Z Colleen: Documentation:  This is the generic interface for the help system. Depending on what it finds for the term, it dispatches to other help commands.
2017-04-21T07:12:13Z flip214: Colleen: help hel
2017-04-21T07:12:13Z Colleen: I found the following commands: help, hello, 8, deny, roll, say, have a, reload, time, award
2017-04-21T07:12:19Z flip214: Colleen: help have
2017-04-21T07:12:19Z Colleen: I found the following commands: have a, help, say, time, 8, award, deny, grant, hello, ramble
2017-04-21T07:12:22Z flip214: Colleen: help have a
2017-04-21T07:12:22Z Colleen: Command Syntax: have a &string thing
2017-04-21T07:12:22Z Colleen: Documentation:  None.
2017-04-21T07:12:29Z flip214: Colleen: have a nice day
2017-04-21T07:12:29Z Colleen: Thanks for the nice day!
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2017-04-21T12:18:59Z shrdlu68: Hello.
2017-04-21T12:24:09Z scymtym: shrdlu68: hi
2017-04-21T12:28:32Z phoe: scymtym: we're having ironclad issues with SBCL on ppc
2017-04-21T12:29:15Z phoe: the string "qwertyuiop" which is #(113 119 101 114 116 121 117 105 111 112) hashes for me to 6308d8f6a7ccc9f77e41be5331a52c71c0bb28ecbd4669b960d60dd505dfde9ddd7a30cd26bb308010b3819699daba7caeb791bf6a4153605fe56d1fd3d5df41
2017-04-21T12:29:31Z phoe: and shrdlu68 is having a different value on powerpc.
2017-04-21T12:30:02Z phoe: with sha512
2017-04-21T12:30:20Z phoe: other hashing functions reportedly work, and ironclad on ECL gives the proper hash.
2017-04-21T12:31:26Z phoe: shrdlu68: what is this powerpc machine of yours?
2017-04-21T12:31:38Z shrdlu68: An iMac g5
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2017-04-21T12:31:59Z shrdlu68: Architecture:          ppc64
2017-04-21T12:32:00Z shrdlu68: CPU op-mode(s):        32-bit, 64-bit
2017-04-21T12:32:00Z shrdlu68: Byte Order:            Big Endian
2017-04-21T12:32:01Z shrdlu68: CPU(s):                1
2017-04-21T12:32:38Z phoe: shrdlu68: can you run https://common-lisp.net/project/ansi-test/ on your SBCL/ppc just to be sure?
2017-04-21T12:32:54Z shrdlu68: Ok.
2017-04-21T12:33:44Z shrdlu68: I added:
2017-04-21T12:34:01Z shrdlu68: (sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy 'debug 3)
2017-04-21T12:34:02Z shrdlu68: (sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy 'safety 3)
2017-04-21T12:34:11Z scymtym: doesn't ironclad define it's own vops? maybe something is wrong there
2017-04-21T12:34:29Z scymtym looks at the code
2017-04-21T12:34:40Z shrdlu68: to ~/.sbclrc as phoe suggested and recompiled ironclad, still getting the same result.
2017-04-21T12:35:14Z phoe: scymtym: it should not
2017-04-21T12:35:21Z phoe: AFAIK it's portable
2017-04-21T12:36:40Z phoe: wait, it does, https://github.com/glv2/ironclad/blob/master/src/sbcl-opt/x86oid-vm.lisp
2017-04-21T12:36:45Z phoe: except it's for x86
2017-04-21T12:36:49Z phoe: so does not apply for ppc
2017-04-21T12:37:42Z phoe: https://github.com/glv2/ironclad/blob/master/src/sbcl-opt/fndb.lisp seems to have some platform-independent code
2017-04-21T12:37:55Z phoe: shrdlu68: could you try modifying your ironclad?
2017-04-21T12:37:55Z scymtym: the sha256-expand-block vop is only partially conditionalized
2017-04-21T12:38:08Z phoe: scymtym: we're talking about sha512 here
2017-04-21T12:38:21Z shrdlu68: phoe: How?
2017-04-21T12:38:34Z phoe: shrdlu68: remove all fasls
2017-04-21T12:38:52Z phoe: and compile your ironclad without /src/sbcl-opt/*
2017-04-21T12:39:04Z phoe: remove these files from the .asd file and possibly from filesystem
2017-04-21T12:39:21Z phoe: if they're truly opt, then ironclad should not complain
2017-04-21T12:39:35Z shrdlu68: Okay, how do I do that?
2017-04-21T12:40:03Z scymtym: right, i thought the vop might be shared, but i can't find any evidence
2017-04-21T12:40:05Z phoe: can you kill all Lisp processes on your computer?
2017-04-21T12:40:14Z shrdlu68: Yeah.
2017-04-21T12:40:18Z scymtym will stop guessing and read the source properly
2017-04-21T12:40:32Z phoe: do so, and then rm -rf ~/.cache/common-lisp/*
2017-04-21T12:41:08Z shrdlu68: Okay...
2017-04-21T12:41:14Z phoe: then cd ~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/ - find the ironclad directory
2017-04-21T12:41:57Z shrdlu68: edit the ironclad-text.asd?
2017-04-21T12:42:03Z phoe: no, ironclad.asd
2017-04-21T12:42:12Z shrdlu68: Oh, right.
2017-04-21T12:42:15Z phoe: comment out the :module "sbcl-opt"
2017-04-21T12:42:38Z shrdlu68: Okay.
2017-04-21T12:42:45Z phoe: let's try it now.
2017-04-21T12:43:04Z shrdlu68: What about /src/sbcl-opt/* ?
2017-04-21T12:43:16Z phoe: it should not be loaded now. just to be sure, you could remove it.
2017-04-21T12:43:29Z phoe: but then remember that your ironclad directory is going to be dirty.
2017-04-21T12:43:33Z shrdlu68: Okay, let me try.
2017-04-21T12:43:42Z phoe: and you might need to redownload ironclad later through Quicklisp.
2017-04-21T12:45:39Z shrdlu68: it fails to load:Component "sbcl-opt" not found, required by #<MODULE "ironclad" "src" "digests">
2017-04-21T12:46:53Z phoe: line 85
2017-04-21T12:46:58Z phoe: remove that dependency on sbcl-opt
2017-04-21T12:47:10Z phoe: inside the asd.
2017-04-21T12:48:21Z shrdlu68: Ok, it's started building.
2017-04-21T12:51:42Z flip214: Reinisch: compile-and-load, then find-definition, works for me.
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2017-04-21T12:54:16Z shrdlu68: phoe: All done, same result.
2017-04-21T12:56:24Z phoe: shrdlu68: woop.
2017-04-21T12:57:17Z phoe: shrdlu68: what is the value of the variable sb-vm:n-word-bits for you?
2017-04-21T12:59:12Z shrdlu68: 20
2017-04-21T12:59:50Z phoe: ...wait wut
2017-04-21T13:00:04Z phoe: it's not 32
2017-04-21T13:00:19Z phoe: so ironclad pushes :64-bit into ironclad-implementation-features
2017-04-21T13:00:31Z phoe: see the ASD file, line 132
2017-04-21T13:00:56Z phoe: shrdlu68: try neutering that whole list, replace it with nil
2017-04-21T13:01:00Z phoe: clean and recompile.
2017-04-21T13:02:12Z shrdlu68: Okay.
2017-04-21T13:02:37Z phoe: because, WTF, how can it be 20 for you if https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/df128b8fc7078b57f8b7e2356187f7d671005b6b/src/compiler/ppc/parms.lisp#L17
2017-04-21T13:03:33Z shrdlu68: Just to be clear, line 129 is now #+sbcl nil, with the following (list* commented out.
2017-04-21T13:04:13Z phoe: good.
2017-04-21T13:06:20Z shrdlu68: Oh wait: sb-vm:n-word-bits is actually 32. I'd set *print-base* to 16.
2017-04-21T13:06:31Z phoe: ......
2017-04-21T13:06:39Z shrdlu68: My bad, I had forgotten about that.
2017-04-21T13:06:41Z phoe: xD
2017-04-21T13:06:49Z phoe: just compile with this commented out.
2017-04-21T13:06:56Z shrdlu68: Okay.
2017-04-21T13:07:16Z phoe: really - for a moment I thought that, "20, this is 32 in base 16, but eh, he'd need to set print-base to 16 for that".
2017-04-21T13:09:14Z scymtym: shrdlu68: i don't know what modifications you have made by now, but assuming you can still reproduce the issue, could you try (progn (trace ironclad::initial-sha512-regs ironclad:produce-digest ironclad::update-sha512-block ironclad::sha512-expand-block) (ironclad:digest-sequence :sha512 (nibbles:octet-vector 1 2 3 4))) on both systems and see whether you can determine where things start to diverge?
2017-04-21T13:09:38Z shrdlu68: I'd done it while checking the output of ironclad:digest-sequence
2017-04-21T13:10:12Z shrdlu68: scymtym: I will.
2017-04-21T13:10:23Z scymtym: shrdlu68: thanks
2017-04-21T13:10:56Z phoe: shrdlu68: so basically, once you finish compiling with my changes
2017-04-21T13:11:14Z phoe: remove the ironclad directory from the quicklisp dists
2017-04-21T13:11:31Z phoe: let it redownload and recompile the quicklisp version
2017-04-21T13:12:07Z scymtym: shrdlu68: well, ok, maybe don't do both experiments at once
2017-04-21T13:12:55Z phoe: then do what scymtym said
2017-04-21T13:13:50Z shrdlu68: phoe: Same results after rmoving cache and recompiling.
2017-04-21T13:14:17Z phoe: shrdlu68: haha. then so what scymtym said I think.
2017-04-21T13:14:22Z phoe: scymtym: http://paste.lisp.org/display/344797 <- this is from my machine.
2017-04-21T13:15:31Z phoe: scymtym: this is weird, "1: IRONCLAD::SHA512-EXPAND-BLOCK returned" - no values?
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2017-04-21T13:16:35Z phoe: ah yes, it returns (values)
2017-04-21T13:17:07Z phoe: perhaps TRACE could be updated to actually say that no values were returned instead of an empty place
2017-04-21T13:17:33Z scymtym: phoe: thanks, is that for ppc?
2017-04-21T13:17:42Z phoe: scymtym: no, this is x86_64
2017-04-21T13:17:55Z phoe: with sha512 seemingly working for me
2017-04-21T13:18:46Z phoe: shrdlu68: one more fun task, you could execute the same trace on your ECL
2017-04-21T13:18:52Z phoe: and also post it on paste.lisp.org
2017-04-21T13:19:35Z shrdlu68: phoe: Okay
2017-04-21T13:28:20Z shrdlu68: phoe: scymtym http://paste.lisp.org/+7E1Q
2017-04-21T13:28:26Z shrdlu68: ^sbcl
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2017-04-21T13:31:01Z phoe: shrdlu68: try this
2017-04-21T13:31:06Z phoe: compute a hash of "asdfasdfasdf"
2017-04-21T13:31:12Z phoe: compute a hash of "qwerqwerqwer"
2017-04-21T13:31:14Z phoe: compare them
2017-04-21T13:32:05Z phoe: look at the line where 1: (IRONCLAD::SHA512-EXPAND-BLOCK
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2017-04-21T13:32:22Z phoe: on my log, the first value in that vector is nonzero
2017-04-21T13:32:26Z phoe: where on ppc it's zero
2017-04-21T13:32:41Z phoe: so I have a suspicion that it actually computes nothing
2017-04-21T13:34:39Z scymtym: shrdlu68: thanks
2017-04-21T13:38:28Z shrdlu68: phoe: The ecl output of the trace: http://paste.lisp.org/+7E1S
2017-04-21T13:38:30Z phoe: scymtym: https://i.imgtc.com/dkV3xLY.png
2017-04-21T13:38:40Z phoe: the bottom of this image shows the first discrepancy
2017-04-21T13:38:59Z phoe: shrdlu68: haha, to hell with ECL's pretty printer
2017-04-21T13:40:36Z phoe: it looks like ECL's trace does not work here
2017-04-21T13:40:44Z scymtym: i think IRONCLAD:FILL-BLOCK-UB8-BE/64 could be the problem
2017-04-21T13:40:52Z phoe: scymtym: where is it in the source?
2017-04-21T13:41:56Z phoe: in the sbcl-opt?
2017-04-21T13:44:23Z scymtym: shrdlu68: can you try to trace IRONCLAD::FILL-BLOCK-UB8-LE/64 as well. not sure whether it is inlined in your version, though
2017-04-21T13:44:58Z scymtym: phoe: the non-vop version is in src/common.lisp
2017-04-21T13:46:45Z phoe: scymtym: I see, it nonetheless uses SBCL-specific code
2017-04-21T13:48:14Z shrdlu68: phoe: http://paste.lisp.org/+7E1V
2017-04-21T13:48:27Z phoe: shrdlu68: hahaha
2017-04-21T13:48:29Z phoe: they're the same
2017-04-21T13:48:37Z shrdlu68: phoe: http://paste.lisp.org/+7E1V
2017-04-21T13:48:42Z phoe: shrdlu68: yes, I got it
2017-04-21T13:48:57Z flip214: a heisenbug? tracing makes it work?
2017-04-21T13:49:05Z phoe: flip214: not really
2017-04-21T13:49:14Z phoe: it doesn't work regardless of tracing
2017-04-21T13:49:26Z phoe: what shrdlu68 posted shows that the hashes are the same regardless of the input string
2017-04-21T13:49:55Z phoe: scymtym: ^
2017-04-21T13:50:21Z shrdlu68: phoe: Wait, I've tried with another string and it wasn't the same.
2017-04-21T13:50:26Z phoe: shrdlu68: oh?
2017-04-21T13:50:33Z phoe: give us more examples
2017-04-21T13:51:20Z flip214: well, different lengths come into play because the length is hashed in, too
2017-04-21T13:51:30Z flip214: so perhaps the difference is 20 zero bytes vs. 21 ;)
2017-04-21T13:51:39Z phoe: might be
2017-04-21T13:51:58Z phoe: shrdlu68: could you do a loop over strings of length 0, 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, ..., 4096?
2017-04-21T13:52:30Z phoe: shrdlu68: you can use MAKE-STRING for that
2017-04-21T13:53:21Z shrdlu68: phoe: http://paste.lisp.org/+7E1X
2017-04-21T13:53:31Z shrdlu68: Let me do the loop.
2017-04-21T13:54:28Z phoe: huh
2017-04-21T13:55:02Z phoe: shrdlu68: do the same thing with IRONCLAD::PRODUCE-DIGEST traced, I want to see a few things
2017-04-21T13:55:11Z phoe: like, the same strings as you just did
2017-04-21T13:57:00Z scymtym: i'm pretty sure the problem is that FILL-BLOCK-UB8-BE/64 does not actually fill the block on ppc
2017-04-21T13:57:24Z shrdlu68: phoe: Specifically produce-digest and not digest-sequence?
2017-04-21T13:57:36Z phoe: scymtym: should he try recompiling that function but without using SBCL-specific code?
2017-04-21T13:57:57Z phoe: shrdlu68: actually, IRONCLAD::SHA512-EXPAND-BLOCK
2017-04-21T13:57:59Z phoe: this one
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2017-04-21T13:58:53Z scymtym: no, SHA512-EXPAND-BLOCK already receives the wrong input
2017-04-21T13:59:05Z scymtym is out of time
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2017-04-21T14:00:11Z phoe: scymtym: I see
2017-04-21T14:00:19Z phoe: I am out of time as well
2017-04-21T14:00:24Z phoe: shrdlu68: I will be back in about 90 minues
2017-04-21T14:00:30Z phoe: I will try to help you some more
2017-04-21T14:00:51Z shrdlu68: phoe: Okay, see you then.
2017-04-21T14:01:52Z phoe: shrdlu68:
2017-04-21T14:01:54Z phoe: go
2017-04-21T14:01:57Z phoe: (in-package :ironclad)
2017-04-21T14:02:08Z phoe: actually, no
2017-04-21T14:02:12Z phoe: (in-package :crypto)
2017-04-21T14:02:42Z phoe: compile this function http://paste.lisp.org/display/344808
2017-04-21T14:02:59Z phoe: which is the same function with SBCL-specific code removed and portable code remaining
2017-04-21T14:03:03Z phoe: and check your hashes.
2017-04-21T14:03:16Z phoe: I need to run now - see ya
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2017-04-21T16:25:07Z muyinliu: Hi
2017-04-21T16:25:45Z beach: Hello muyinliu.
2017-04-21T16:27:36Z muyinliu: Are you guys use SBCL on Termux(Android)?
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2017-04-21T17:16:51Z stassats: i can't even load quicklisp on ppc, full call to SB-VM::%%LDB
2017-04-21T17:16:52Z stassats: fun stuff
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2017-04-21T17:30:41Z stassats: (defun test (x) (labels ((foo (bits) (ldb (byte bits 0) (the fixnum x)))) (foo 7))) %%ldb doesn't pick up any of the vops
2017-04-21T17:32:22Z stassats: only with (declare (optimize (debug 2)))
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2017-04-21T17:37:39Z stassats: ok, i think that's because debug preserves bits, but it's has a constant type, but some time ago i had to change constant-lvar-p to strictly-constant-lvar-p in operand-restriction-ok
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2017-04-21T17:38:01Z stassats: because it breaks closure capture when a captured variable is not read from
2017-04-21T17:38:02Z stassats: sigh
2017-04-21T17:38:40Z stassats: i guess it would be much better to not need strictly-constant-lvar-p, but i couldn't figure out ow
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2017-04-21T17:49:39Z stassats: so, regarding the ironclad thing
2017-04-21T17:49:43Z stassats: fill-block-ub8-be/64 has an empty body
2017-04-21T17:50:31Z stassats: ok, y'all have already figured that out
2017-04-21T17:51:16Z dougk_: apropos of hash algorithms, i'll pulling pristine md5 sources from Peirre Mai's github into contrib/sb-md5.
2017-04-21T17:51:32Z stassats: #+(and :sbcl :big-endian :64-bit), the only system that this can be true is arm64, but it wasn't yet alive at that point and is an unlikely configuration
2017-04-21T17:52:49Z stassats: too bad ironclad is unmaitaned
2017-04-21T17:53:21Z phoe: stassats: https://github.com/froydnj/ironclad/network
2017-04-21T17:53:39Z phoe: it seems that https://github.com/glv2/ironclad is alive
2017-04-21T17:54:00Z stassats: it's not official
2017-04-21T17:55:01Z phoe: but it's alive
2017-04-21T17:55:09Z phoe: the official one is unmaintained, yes
2017-04-21T17:55:20Z phoe: so someone else took it and is merging in all the patches
2017-04-21T17:55:59Z stassats: quicklisp doesn't use it
2017-04-21T17:57:12Z phoe: stassats: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/issues/1280
2017-04-21T17:57:34Z stassats: and it has no releases
2017-04-21T17:58:23Z stassats: and who is glv2?
2017-04-21T17:59:38Z stassats: questioning whether they would insert NSA backdoors
2017-04-21T18:00:23Z phoe: seemingly the person who's been de facto maintaining ironclad for the past two years
2017-04-21T18:00:26Z phoe: https://github.com/froydnj/ironclad/commits/master
2017-04-21T18:00:37Z phoe: about the release: https://github.com/glv2/ironclad/issues/1
2017-04-21T18:05:30Z phoe: shrdlu68: https://github.com/glv2/ironclad/
2017-04-21T18:05:34Z phoe: file an issue there about the SBCL problem
2017-04-21T18:05:50Z stassats: well, it's an ironclad problem
2017-04-21T18:06:12Z phoe: s/SBCL/SBCL compatibility/
2017-04-21T18:06:27Z stassats: it's also broken on cmucl
2017-04-21T18:07:17Z phoe: cmucl/powerpc?
2017-04-21T18:07:46Z stassats: and it's not confined to ppc
2017-04-21T18:08:31Z phoe: it's broken on all 64-bit big-endian platforms?
2017-04-21T18:08:48Z stassats: it's not broken on 64-bit platforms
2017-04-21T18:09:47Z phoe: stassats: I don't understand "it's not confined to ppc" then
2017-04-21T18:09:50Z phoe: where else will it manifest?
2017-04-21T18:10:09Z stassats: follow the conditionals
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2017-04-21T20:56:39Z pipping: (that sounds like a lewis carroll quote)
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2017-04-22T04:28:56Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-04-22T08:32:22Z akkad: hi
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2017-04-22T08:50:46Z Xof: Huh, it's already past the 20th
2017-04-22T08:51:24Z Xof: apart from the fact that we've broken everything that used -header-widetag (I've seen dougk's sent patches to projects), anything I should know about before thinking about a release?
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2017-04-22T17:26:21Z Suzuran: nyef: If nobody told you yet, we released. https://github.com/dseagrav/ld
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2017-04-22T18:31:46Z Suzuran: leah2: For some reason they're on the PDFs side of things. I thought they might be moved, so I tried to identify them by checksum rather than path.
2017-04-22T18:38:16Z leah2: ah, ok
2017-04-22T18:38:34Z leah2: i checked all md5 of all files in bits/ and gave up :P
2017-04-22T18:41:04Z Suzuran: I tested my instructions by giving them to a random person on IRC who had no lisp exposure whatsoever, and only minimal guidance (mostly "read the README, section X") and he got through it
2017-04-22T18:44:08Z leah2: ok
2017-04-22T18:44:56Z Suzuran: I was feeling pretty confident after that, but you're the third lisp person who has had to ask for help
2017-04-22T18:45:13Z leah2: :D
2017-04-22T18:50:38Z leah2: hm, perhaps use SO_REUSEADDR for the telnet?
2017-04-22T18:52:00Z Suzuran: Oh right
2017-04-22T18:52:11Z Suzuran: I haven't had to use that in so long (or more than once) that I forgot about the wait
2017-04-22T18:56:20Z leah2: whee, a repl
2017-04-22T19:10:10Z Suzuran: You should have been around the first time I saw it after all those months of work
2017-04-22T19:10:31Z leah2: :)
2017-04-22T19:10:45Z leah2: works quite well
2017-04-22T19:12:21Z Suzuran: It's more useful if you install the source tree, but that takes awhile
2017-04-22T19:12:54Z Suzuran: If you define a site you can get TCP/IP
2017-04-22T19:13:07Z leah2: i'm restoring some tape now, which takes a long time
2017-04-22T19:13:13Z leah2: (i have no idea what i'm doing :D)
2017-04-22T19:13:30Z Suzuran: Ah, that's the aforementioned source tree
2017-04-22T19:13:34Z Suzuran: Yeah, it takes awhile
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2017-04-22T19:22:05Z nyef: Ooh.
2017-04-22T19:22:21Z nyef: Hello Suzuran, and congratulations.
2017-04-22T19:26:46Z Suzuran: thanks~
2017-04-22T19:26:54Z Suzuran: So far it's been pretty uneventful
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2017-04-23T04:01:49Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-04-24T03:53:13Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-04-24T04:59:37Z flip214: good morning, beach!
2017-04-24T05:05:46Z beach: flip214: I will see Irene Wednesday, and talk to her then.
2017-04-24T05:06:21Z flip214: beach: thanks a lot... I'm taking a few steps here, too, perhaps there's some similar way
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2017-04-25T04:37:52Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-04-25T04:49:53Z akkad: The value #<unbound marker {51}> is not of type hash-table when binding hash-table. not sure how to debug this farther
2017-04-25T05:01:16Z akkad: ahh. (defvar cl-store:*current-backend* *default-backend*)(flexi-streams:with-output-to-sequence (wtf) (cl-store:store-object "jsdfjlkdfj" wtf)) does it.
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2017-04-25T06:24:53Z Shinmera: Does exit code 5 mean anything specific for SBCL? I have an issue on Windows where it just crashes after a few seconds without any other indication as to what's going on on stdout/stderr.
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2017-04-25T08:22:52Z flip214: Shinmera: put a breakpoint on exit? gdb or sbcl?
2017-04-25T08:23:05Z flip214: is that a WSL sbcl, or a plain-windows one?
2017-04-25T08:23:14Z flip214: in the latter case you might need windbg (free download)
2017-04-25T08:23:21Z Shinmera: "WSL"?
2017-04-25T08:24:26Z flip214: windows services for linux, or whatever this emulation layer is called.
2017-04-25T08:24:40Z Shinmera: It's plain windows.
2017-04-25T08:24:55Z flip214: so windbg...
2017-04-25T08:25:44Z Shinmera: I'll see what I can bother myself to do once I get home.
2017-04-25T08:26:22Z flip214: In the sources I only see ExitProcess(1) or (0)...
2017-04-25T08:28:31Z Shinmera: It's in relation to foreign code, so pretty much anything might be going on
2017-04-25T08:28:33Z flip214: the best guess I have is 5 == access denied
2017-04-25T08:28:49Z flip214: so perhaps "process explorer" (some strace equivalent) might help, too
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2017-04-25T11:26:24Z stassats: akkad: cl-store uses safety 0, and you are misusing it, leaving *stored-counter* unbound
2017-04-25T11:27:37Z stassats: kids, don't use safety 0
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2017-04-25T11:41:54Z jdz: +1
2017-04-25T11:42:08Z stassats: right, safety 1 would be better
2017-04-25T11:42:34Z jdz: God bless sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy
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2017-04-25T19:35:14Z gigamonkey: Hey folks, one (or both) of SBCL or me is getting confused. (I mentioned this in #lisp). Here's a paste with the details: http://paste.lisp.org/display/345140
2017-04-25T19:37:14Z gigamonkey: Since I posted the paste I've noticed that not only do I get the compile time warning when I compile my system but the generated code seems broken until I recompile the file containing the DEFTERM form.
2017-04-25T19:48:45Z pkhuong: gigamonkey: any destructive operation on sexps?
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2017-04-25T19:50:21Z stassats: gigamonkey: (counted (1- n) p) has two arguments indeed
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2017-04-25T19:56:15Z phoe: http://paste.lisp.org/display/345152
2017-04-25T19:57:11Z stassats: phoe: that's already in the tracker
2017-04-25T19:57:24Z phoe: stassats: got it, thanks
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2017-04-25T19:59:20Z gigamonkey: stassats: I don't think it does. Look at the expansion.
2017-04-25T19:59:57Z gigamonkey: pkhuong: you mean during macro expansion. I don't think so. Pretty much all backquote forms.
2017-04-25T20:00:55Z gigamonkey: stassats: also, if the code was just wrong, recompiling shouldn't help, right?
2017-04-25T20:12:21Z stassats: gigamonkey: (setf (get ',name 'parser-function) t) is executed at compile-time only, but the macro is expanded before
2017-04-25T20:17:20Z gigamonkey: Ah. Duh.
2017-04-25T20:19:24Z gigamonkey: Thanks, that seems to be it. (And, easy to fix.)
2017-04-25T20:20:12Z stassats: since executed that at macro-expansion time should take care of :compile-time, the whole :eval-when is redundant too
2017-04-25T20:20:33Z stassats: well, eval-when itself, not its body
2017-04-25T20:22:22Z gigamonkey: You mean just wrap the whole expansion in PROGN with the (setf (get ...)) and the (defun ...) in it?
2017-04-25T20:22:42Z stassats: having just (setf (get ',name 'parser-function) t) without eval-when
2017-04-25T20:23:26Z stassats: since progn is already :load-toplevel :execute, and that (setf get) in the macro function will take care of the :compile-toplevel case
2017-04-25T20:24:07Z gigamonkey: But the setf isn't in the macro function.
2017-04-25T20:24:30Z gigamonkey: I.e. it doesn't execute as part of running the macro function.
2017-04-25T20:24:33Z stassats: well, it'll have to be, how else will COMPILE-AND know about it?
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2017-04-25T20:25:02Z gigamonkey: Well, that's what the EVAL-WHEN is for, right?
2017-04-25T20:25:07Z gigamonkey: Sorry, no, strike that.
2017-04-25T20:25:25Z stassats: yeah, but not for self-calls
2017-04-25T20:25:49Z gigamonkey: Right. But for self calls I can easily pass the name of the thing I'm defining.
2017-04-25T20:26:00Z gigamonkey: Since I already need to do that for locally defined functions in another macro.
2017-04-25T20:26:37Z gigamonkey: But that EVAL-WHEN is needed so that one DEFTERM in a file will mark the defined name as a parser function so another DEFTERM expansion in the same file will be able to see it.
2017-04-25T20:26:56Z stassats: executing it at macro expansion time is simpler, no need for special cases
2017-04-25T20:27:22Z gigamonkey: But I still need it in the expansion for :load-toplevel and :execute.
2017-04-25T20:27:43Z stassats: right, except bare, without the eval-when
2017-04-25T20:27:43Z gigamonkey: So why not just wrap it in an EVAL-WHEN and avoid the special case in the macro function.
2017-04-25T20:28:11Z gigamonkey: So one bare thing + another thing in the macro function or one EVAL-WHEN. Matter of style, I guess.
2017-04-25T20:28:33Z gigamonkey: Though, obviously I tripped over the corner case here.
2017-04-25T20:29:04Z stassats: or you can turn compile-and into a macro
2017-04-25T20:29:23Z stassats: that way you'll only need the eval-when
2017-04-25T20:31:27Z stassats: (and style, i wouldn't be caught dead using symbol-plists)
2017-04-25T20:32:25Z gigamonkey: This is the perfect use for them though.
2017-04-25T20:34:35Z stassats: just because they're there
2017-04-25T20:35:06Z akkad: stassats: thanks
2017-04-25T20:35:10Z stassats: would you add such a feature to a language just to make that case slightly easier?
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2017-04-25T20:38:15Z gigamonkey: What's the alternative? I need to communication info about symbols between macros.
2017-04-25T20:39:10Z gigamonkey: Keep a hash-table or something and arrange for it to be populated at both compile and load time? Blech.
2017-04-25T20:39:49Z stassats: you have to do that for symbol-plists too...
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2017-04-25T20:45:09Z gigamonkey: Well, you do. ;-) I.e. the implementation takes care of it for me.
2017-04-25T20:50:01Z stassats: yet you had the problem exactly with that
2017-04-25T20:55:49Z gigamonkey: Wouldn't have been any easier if I had also had to deal with the underlynig mechanics.
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2017-04-26T00:59:54Z 
2017-04-26T00:59:54Z names: ccl-logbot dustinm` minion cromachina jack_rabbit whiteline scymtym easye milanj salva pipping Bike oleo DeadTrickster beach Ober jdz karswell` Xof foom myrkraverk nyef Lord_Nightmare |3b| Posterdati shaftoe dougk_ phoe dim leo_song lonjil eschatologist fiddlerwoaroof brucem leah2 ym irsol p_l Intensity sigjuice_ luis` dustinm`_ malm les Reinisch carvite__ jibanes carvite_ DGASAU swflint xristos angular_mike_ akkad pkhuong arjenve fe[nl]ix Blkt
2017-04-26T00:59:54Z names: drmeister PuercoPop White_Flame gko adlai Colleen jsnell Shinmera fjl__ specbot aeth jackdaniel mood pchrist nicdev jcloud abbe flip214 knobo mjl nimiux abruanese kini christoph_debian carvite
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2017-04-26T03:27:20Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-04-26T05:00:44Z flip214: good morning...
2017-04-26T05:07:21Z beach: Hello flip214.
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2017-04-26T11:54:01Z phoe: Can I anyhow instruct SBCL to print stacktraces whenever debugger is invoked in non-main threads?
2017-04-26T11:56:56Z flip214: phoe: how about binding *debugger-hook*?
2017-04-26T11:57:00Z phoe: Is there any kind of hook that I might modify once the program is running but before the threads are spawned?
2017-04-26T11:57:10Z phoe: Oh right.
2017-04-26T11:57:14Z flip214: or have your own toplevel that does a (loop (unwind-protect))?
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2017-04-26T12:08:21Z francogrex: hi, is there a program that helps generate ffi bindings for sbcl, much like the swig and or verrazano do for cffin clisp and allegro?
2017-04-26T12:09:28Z phoe: francogrex: CFFI grovel
2017-04-26T12:09:41Z phoe: flip214: I do not have such a toplevel
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2017-04-26T12:21:29Z phoe: What is the basic way of printing a backtrace in SBCL once I am in the debugger hook?
2017-04-26T12:22:11Z flip214: phoe: (ql :trivial-backtrace)
2017-04-26T12:25:04Z francogrex: cffi grovel creates bindings for sbcl?
2017-04-26T12:25:13Z Xof: well, no: sb-debug:print-backtrace
2017-04-26T12:25:19Z phoe: francogrex: it creates bindings for CFFI
2017-04-26T12:25:29Z phoe: oh wait
2017-04-26T12:29:41Z francogrex: no but that's not what I was wanting, i want something that creates bindings for sbcl ffi
2017-04-26T12:30:25Z francogrex: ex swig -cffi -module mod-name library.c
2017-04-26T12:30:26Z stassats: i can't parse that
2017-04-26T12:31:17Z francogrex: will create cffi functions to be used with the library mentioned. i was thinking sbcl may have something similar
2017-04-26T12:31:19Z flip214: francogrex: you want to know how a c program can run functions that are compiled in SBCL?
2017-04-26T12:31:38Z francogrex: flip214: not really
2017-04-26T12:32:18Z francogrex: http://www.swig.org/Doc1.3/Lisp.html
2017-04-26T12:43:29Z phoe: Will setting *debugger-hook* in main thread also set them in all spawned threads?
2017-04-26T12:43:43Z stassats: *debugger-hook* is a special variable
2017-04-26T12:47:40Z flip214: phoe: before spawning them, yes.
2017-04-26T12:47:55Z flip214: afterwards, not if they bound it themselves.
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2017-04-26T14:53:50Z francogrex: i was away I don't know if someone had some solution for me (using automation to make create sbcl ffi bindings for a c file)
2017-04-26T14:55:16Z flip214: francogrex: swig is not good enough?
2017-04-26T14:56:18Z francogrex: it's not for sbcl it's for cffi
2017-04-26T14:56:29Z francogrex: and clisp and allegro but not sbcl
2017-04-26T14:56:37Z stassats: what?
2017-04-26T14:56:38Z flip214: but sbcl can use cffi too??!?
2017-04-26T14:57:20Z nyef: Is SB-GROVEL not sufficient?
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2017-04-26T15:19:21Z francogrex: nyef: honsestly don't know how to use it and what it would do, maybe it is
2017-04-26T15:19:42Z francogrex: i will see if there are examples of use i will see if it's what i want
2017-04-26T15:39:02Z nyef: Should be an example with the SB-BSD-SOCKETS implementation, possibly a couple of other places in contrib/
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2017-04-26T15:58:58Z stassats: if francogrex wanted swig, then sb-grovel is not it
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2017-04-27T02:53:46Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-04-27T05:04:29Z flip214: good morning, beach! today you're 2 hours ahead of me....
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2017-04-27T05:55:06Z beach: flip214: It happens.
2017-04-27T05:55:31Z beach: It's a genetic defect in my family to wake up early.
2017-04-27T05:57:17Z flip214: what, really?
2017-04-27T05:57:54Z flip214: sorry about that, but I'd have thought simple old-age-insomnia...
2017-04-27T05:58:02Z beach: Nah.
2017-04-27T05:58:17Z beach: My parents took second jobs to distribute newspapers, because they had nothing to do between 4am and the time their regular jobs started.
2017-04-27T05:58:38Z flip214: well, with ε before retirement, it was a good guess.
2017-04-27T05:58:43Z flip214: hmmm, both? interesting.
2017-04-27T05:58:49Z beach: Yes, both.
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2017-04-27T05:59:08Z flip214: do you have kids? if yes, did you choose some wife who wakes up early, too?
2017-04-27T05:59:15Z beach: I don't have kids, no.
2017-04-27T05:59:23Z flip214: oh, okay.
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2017-04-27T13:32:47Z flip214: why not turn sb-ext:*derive-function-types* T by default? the one reason I heard some time ago should be fixed via 0c392c66bcea1d6490077a01cb1f53b12c8f4707 now ("Produce runtime warnings for compile-time FTYPE return mismatch.")
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2017-04-27T13:58:22Z pkhuong: flip214: *d-f-t* isn't standard compliant.
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2017-04-27T14:12:28Z flip214: pkhuong: yeah, thanks. that's a good point.
2017-04-27T14:13:04Z flip214: still, I find it immensely useful - but it's not even listed in the manual!!
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2017-04-27T14:34:51Z flip214: I just saw that a recursive function, disassembled, omits some opcodes at the beginning. http://paste.lisp.org/display/345280
2017-04-27T14:37:58Z flip214: can I get them back?
2017-04-27T14:39:26Z nyef: flip214: SB-DISASSEM:DISASSEMBLE-CODE-COMPONENT
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2017-04-27T14:42:57Z flip214: nyef: thanks...
2017-04-27T14:43:08Z flip214: but with 1.3.16.112.master.1-ea658cbad both this and (DISASSEMBLE) give no output any more?!
2017-04-27T14:44:09Z flip214: at least via swank, on bash via --script it still works?!
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2017-04-27T14:45:37Z nyef: Dunno. I'm currently running 1.3.8.26 or so.
2017-04-27T14:46:27Z flip214: thank you, anyway!
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2017-04-27T14:47:47Z flip214: and git HEAD _doesn't_ like sb-ext:*derive-function-types*, again (or still?!)
2017-04-27T14:48:07Z flip214: I thought it was fixed inbetween, but now croakes on b-t:condition-wait again
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2017-04-27T18:39:50Z names: angular_mike_ xristos pkhuong arjenve drmeister PuercoPop gko adlai Colleen Shinmera specbot aeth mood pchrist nicdev christoph_debian kini abruanese nimiux mjl knobo flip214 abbe jcloud
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2017-04-28T03:31:57Z beach` is now known as beach
2017-04-28T03:34:54Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-04-28T05:00:16Z flip214: good morning...
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2017-04-28T05:06:09Z beach: Hello flip214.
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2017-04-28T08:49:47Z ZabaQ: Did sbcl ever get a peephole optimizer?
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2017-04-28T10:44:04Z stassats: ZabaQ: no
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2017-04-28T11:20:37Z Xof: go!
2017-04-28T11:21:00Z jackdaniel: heh
2017-04-28T11:21:16Z stassats: my test at the end of clos.impure.lisp doesn't fail
2017-04-28T11:21:20Z stassats: it does fail at the beginning
2017-04-28T11:21:39Z stassats: i hate when that happens
2017-04-28T11:25:52Z stassats: and .impure and --break-on-failure are broken
2017-04-28T11:25:53Z stassats: sigh
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2017-04-28T11:27:22Z stassats: there's (declaim (optimize (speed 1) (space 1) (safety 3) (debug 3) (compilation-speed 1))) in the middle
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2017-04-28T11:42:12Z stassats: would it be a good idea to omit &rest ... from the lambda-list if there's &key ...?
2017-04-28T11:42:39Z stassats: and no &allow-other-keys
2017-04-28T11:43:57Z stassats: i guess that's a task for slime
2017-04-28T11:44:44Z stassats: but, what's the point of even saving that, also all the suppliedp things
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2017-04-28T17:27:06Z sbclnovice: Hello, does anyone know if the period character has special meaning within symbol names in SBCL?   I've searched a bit, but haven't been able to find any documentation.
2017-04-28T17:28:40Z Bike: how do you mean?
2017-04-28T17:28:41Z sbclnovice: For example, (print 'a.b) drops into the debugger with an undefined function error on SBCL, but on Allegro I get A.B
2017-04-28T17:29:05Z Bike: doesn't here.
2017-04-28T17:29:08Z Bike: and shouldn't
2017-04-28T17:29:10Z sbclnovice: But (print '|a.b|) does print A.B on both.
2017-04-28T17:30:03Z Bike: this is just at a new repl?
2017-04-28T17:30:11Z sbclnovice: Ok, thank you.   That means the giant pile of legacy code I'm porting from Allegro to SBCL must have done something to the reader.
2017-04-28T17:30:35Z sbclnovice: No, it didn't occur to test in a fresh repl until your response.
2017-04-28T17:30:45Z Bike: oh. kay.
2017-04-28T17:30:58Z Bike: dots in symbols should be fine by the standard, iirc, so if sbcl did something different it would be a bug
2017-04-28T17:31:27Z sbclnovice: Right, that's what I thought.  Just wanted to verify with another human being.
2017-04-28T17:31:29Z nyef: IIRC, SBCL uses dots in symbols itself in a few places. Possibly in the guts of PCL?
2017-04-28T17:31:55Z sbclnovice: Incidentally, is there a better ref for the standard than CLHS or is that what everybody uses?
2017-04-28T17:32:17Z Bike: it's what everybody uses. there's a project to make a new fancier version but it's sitll underway.
2017-04-28T17:32:32Z Bike: nyef: i know some PCL symbols have names like ".X." at least
2017-04-28T17:34:28Z nyef: Exactly!
2017-04-28T17:34:43Z sbclnovice: I think it's coming from a call to set-macro-character
2017-04-28T17:46:16Z sbclnovice: If you don't mind another question, does anyone know if there's a way to make asdf & sbcl report compiler error messages for included files?    I'm seeing all the warnings and notes, but not the actual error messsages.    Only the "debugger invoked on a UIOP/LISP-BUILD" one.
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2017-04-28T23:13:15Z sea: Hi all, this code results in an Out of Memory crash: http://sprunge.us/BKXG
2017-04-28T23:13:29Z sea: I have sbcl 1.3.1.debian
2017-04-28T23:13:51Z sea: Could someone check it on their version and see if it also crashes
2017-04-28T23:15:05Z sea: http://sprunge.us/cWMJ
2017-04-28T23:15:10Z sea: I even just put it in directly and it went splat.
2017-04-28T23:16:16Z Bike: i get "invalid number of arguments" on 1.3.15.
2017-04-28T23:16:29Z sea: Okay, seems like good reason for me to update
2017-04-28T23:17:04Z Bike: kind of surprised that would run out though. it's a pretty basic error
2017-04-28T23:17:43Z sea: I can't imagine it being anything else but the interpreter. I could run mine without an rc file if you want, but my rc file has everything commented out
2017-04-28T23:18:17Z sea: Lemme try it on another machine
2017-04-28T23:19:35Z sea: Invalid Number of Arguments on sbcl 1.2.4.debian hrmm
2017-04-28T23:19:41Z sea: I guess I could downgrade to fix it..
2017-04-28T23:24:09Z sea: okay so I swapped out the 'collect 1' with a do print "Z", and now I have infinitely many Z's printed on my console
2017-04-28T23:24:18Z |3b| would try with --no-userinit --no-sysinit
2017-04-28T23:24:22Z sea: one sec
2017-04-28T23:25:14Z sea: Invalid number of arguments when I do that. I get an infinite loop still if I take out no-userinit and leave no-sysinit, so I guess something in the sysinit is screwing it up
2017-04-28T23:25:27Z sea: wrong way around
2017-04-28T23:25:36Z sea: no-userinit stops it, so something there..
2017-04-28T23:25:58Z |3b|: most likely a declaim safety 0 or similar
2017-04-28T23:26:01Z sea: ooooh, I see what it is
2017-04-28T23:26:04Z sea: Yeah, declaim (safety 0)
2017-04-28T23:26:48Z |3b|: safety 0 isn't needed too often on sbcl
2017-04-28T23:26:58Z |3b|: especially not globally :)
2017-04-28T23:27:27Z sea: okay, it works now. Back to what I was doing
2017-04-28T23:27:37Z sea: thanks
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