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2015-07-02T06:22:28Z Fare: is run-program working on Windows?
2015-07-02T06:22:43Z Fare: I can't get anything from it except errors
2015-07-02T06:23:26Z Fare: CCL's implementation is working, but SBCL's seems broken.
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2015-07-02T06:32:20Z 
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2015-07-03T08:19:41Z akkad: can you setf sb-unix::posix-getenv name?
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2015-07-03T08:29:40Z stassats: never use sb-unix
2015-07-03T08:35:38Z akkad: #+sbcl (sb-posix:putenv (concatenate 'string var "=" value)) ?
2015-07-03T08:42:39Z akkad: ahh, sbcl on windows it is, thanks
2015-07-03T08:44:43Z jackdaniel: akkad: use osicat
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2015-07-03T08:47:08Z akkad: nice, cuts down my #+ stack
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2015-07-03T15:38:14Z stassats: reduced fasl size, contrib fasls take 228KB less space
2015-07-03T15:38:28Z stassats: and i noticed that the fasl format is not the most compact possible
2015-07-03T15:39:30Z stassats: the stack machine could probably go away
2015-07-03T15:40:55Z stassats: needs some experimenting there
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2015-07-03T20:41:03Z stassats: we seem to accept all kinds of things for docstrings
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2015-07-04T19:54:57Z akkad: is there a cygwin target?
2015-07-04T19:56:13Z Xach: like, to print out and aim at?
2015-07-04T19:56:35Z nyef: ... cygwin would be permanently mounted on the dartboard in the secret lair of the original developer for the SBCL/Win32 port... If he had a dartboard, a secret lair, or any interest in windows at all anymore.
2015-07-04T19:57:06Z nyef: Xach: Heh. Same basic idea. Well played. (-:
2015-07-04T19:59:37Z akkad: slime dislikes c:\foo\bar\quicklisp.lisp when using emacs-w32
2015-07-04T19:59:49Z akkad: and given every other version of emacs for winxx is poo
2015-07-04T20:00:03Z nyef: You know, I figured out how to make that sort of thing Not Suck at one point.
2015-07-04T20:00:12Z nyef: About half a decade or so ago.
2015-07-04T20:00:22Z nyef: lisppaste might still have the bits.
2015-07-04T20:00:47Z nyef: Basically, you annotate your inferior-lisp specification with some filename mapping functions.
2015-07-04T20:00:57Z nyef: Something like that.
2015-07-04T20:01:51Z akkad: yeah, it's a hack, if it works at all :P
2015-07-04T20:03:07Z nyef: It's windows, what did you expect?
2015-07-04T20:03:32Z akkad: emacs-w32 via cygwin avoids the evil
2015-07-04T20:03:44Z nyef: No. No, it doesn't.
2015-07-04T20:03:56Z nyef: Cygwin itself is a hack.
2015-07-04T20:04:10Z akkad: given the dozen things I do inside emac on win32 now, they all work, except for slime/swank
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2015-07-04T20:12:22Z akkad: excellent thanks!
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2015-07-05T15:24:35Z gingerale: Hey, would anyone be familiar with an issue related to sb-bsd-sockets on Windows 7 with SBCL 1.2.12? Backtrace that happens if able to give a look, https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/13406580/error_at_release_stream_sb-bsd-sockets.txt
2015-07-05T15:24:59Z gingerale: Might also explain why SLIME won't agree to work for me.
2015-07-05T15:25:29Z stassats: "The RPC server is unavailable"
2015-07-05T15:26:37Z stassats: but that doesn't make sens
2015-07-05T15:26:59Z gingerale: Hm?
2015-07-05T15:32:09Z gingerale: Ah, right, the error code at the top.
2015-07-05T15:32:30Z stassats: do i hate error codes
2015-07-05T15:33:33Z stassats: but you're on your own
2015-07-05T15:33:40Z gingerale: Alright, thanks anyways
2015-07-05T15:42:14Z stassats: gingerale: what about without quicklisp? (require :sb-bsd-sockets)
2015-07-05T15:43:54Z gingerale: Gives the same error code
2015-07-05T15:44:12Z stassats: will you try with sbcl 1.2.13?
2015-07-05T15:45:22Z gingerale: Well there's no binary for it on the site. Is it in condition that it's easily compileable on Windows?
2015-07-05T15:45:30Z stassats: there will be in ten minutes
2015-07-05T15:45:59Z gingerale: A binary?
2015-07-05T15:46:27Z stassats: yes
2015-07-05T15:46:38Z gingerale: Sure I can give it a go.
2015-07-05T15:53:45Z stassats: gingerale: try now
2015-07-05T15:56:29Z gingerale: Sourceforge tells me the file could not be found or is not available
2015-07-05T15:57:29Z gingerale: Oh odd. Found it in the folder it should be in and it works now
2015-07-05T15:58:19Z stassats: it was lagging behind
2015-07-05T15:58:40Z gingerale: Looks like it's not synced on the mirrors yet. Well I'm sure the download starts in a bit.
2015-07-05T15:58:42Z gingerale: There we go
2015-07-05T16:00:20Z gingerale: No such file or directory, ccl64.. Hold on.
2015-07-05T16:00:31Z gingerale: Err, sorry, helping out a friend on another channel
2015-07-05T16:00:37Z gingerale: But doing this at the same time.
2015-07-05T16:03:28Z gingerale: Yup, (require :sb-bsd-sockets) gives 1722 on this one as well
2015-07-05T16:03:47Z gingerale: So it's some mysterious problem with my Windows. Not surprised to be honest.
2015-07-05T16:03:49Z stassats: what about :sb-posix
2015-07-05T16:04:11Z gingerale: That works fine
2015-07-05T16:05:04Z stassats: now you have to build it yourself
2015-07-05T16:06:08Z gingerale: Yeah, I figured. I'll get that done another time. I have everything working on a VM running Arch so it's mostly for testing things and extra comfort.
2015-07-05T16:12:21Z |3b|: is that error from trying to close the .fasl file?
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2015-07-05T17:33:45Z stassats: finally getting my 600K core size reduction in
2015-07-05T17:34:14Z stassats: and fasls size reduction too, 260K for the contribs
2015-07-05T17:34:33Z scymtym: stassats: nice. how does it work?
2015-07-05T17:35:09Z stassats: does not record the debug information that is constant for all functions
2015-07-05T17:36:42Z scymtym: sounds like a huge win if it can be done without complicating things too much
2015-07-05T17:37:14Z stassats: just an additional conditional variable, and using constants
2015-07-05T17:37:21Z stassats: they are different on non-(x86oids and arm)
2015-07-05T17:38:00Z stassats: plus other savings for fasls, you'll that in the commit log
2015-07-05T17:38:58Z scymtym: cool, didn't mean to distract you
2015-07-05T17:40:15Z stassats: i'm waiting for tests and builds to run anyway
2015-07-05T17:40:41Z stassats: and i'm thinking of rewriting the whole fasl dumping/loading code
2015-07-05T17:40:48Z stassats: the stack machine doesn't appear to be the most efficient
2015-07-05T17:40:57Z stassats: but that's for some other time
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2015-07-05T19:19:44Z skrue: exit
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2015-07-05T19:23:33Z |3b|: should (sleep :non-consing) still be marked as failing on win32? think it has been working for a while at least on 64bit
2015-07-05T19:24:21Z nyef: 64-bit win-32?
2015-07-05T19:24:38Z nyef: That seems a little oxymoronic.
2015-07-05T19:24:46Z |3b|: yay for windows :/
2015-07-05T19:24:55Z nyef: And, oddly, oxymoronic doesn't appear to be in the spelling dictionary that my IRC client uses.
2015-07-05T19:25:09Z Shinmera: The platform is still called "Win32".
2015-07-05T19:25:16Z Shinmera: Regardless of architecture
2015-07-05T19:25:21Z nyef: Lovely.
2015-07-05T19:25:30Z nyef: Hey, has anyone ported to WinCE yet? (-:
2015-07-05T19:25:59Z Shinmera: Also: On a 64x system 64x dlls are stored in system32, but 32bit compats are in SysWOW64
2015-07-05T19:26:07Z Shinmera: Because that makes sense
2015-07-05T19:26:26Z |3b|: yay for bad application devs too (since those are what makes it make sense)
2015-07-05T19:26:51Z |3b|: "lets hard code paths so they can never change, even though there is an abstraction layer we should be using"
2015-07-05T19:26:53Z nyef misses the days when you could go in and hack ini files to move things around within windows/system in order to put things in a logical order instead of a fucking huge mess.
2015-07-05T19:29:01Z |3b| wonders if anyone aside from me and maybe stassats even runs the tests on windows
2015-07-05T19:29:27Z Shinmera: I don't usually touch Windows unless I have to for portability of a library.
2015-07-05T19:30:10Z |3b|: yeah, more curious about all the people who complained about kittens than the people who don't use windows at all
2015-07-05T19:30:24Z |3b|: (or "as much as possible" if not "at all")
2015-07-05T19:31:20Z nyef: For what it's worth, I was the first person to express an opinion on the kitten issue, and I don't use windows for programming anymore, or at all if I can help it.
2015-07-05T19:31:35Z |3b|: were you in favor of removing it?
2015-07-05T19:31:49Z nyef: No, I added the message in the first place.
2015-07-05T19:32:14Z Shinmera: I don't think I know what "kittens" refers to. Can I read about it somewhere?
2015-07-05T19:32:20Z |3b|: right, not complaining about people adding it keeping it :p
2015-07-05T19:32:58Z Bike: Shinmera: windows sbcl used to say something about "the kitten of death" on startup, and you couldn't remove it without patching
2015-07-05T19:33:10Z |3b|: just people who think the windows port is important enough to need to present a serious image, but not importamnt enough to even run the tests and report the failures
2015-07-05T19:33:11Z Shinmera: Bike: Oh.
2015-07-05T19:33:25Z nyef: Shinmera: "your kitten of death awaits" is/was a hotly-contested, not-suppressible piece of debug output that was printed after loading the core file but before calling the initial function.
2015-07-05T19:33:53Z Shinmera: Well it's easier for people to get offended than it is to run tests, so that behaviour is explained easily.
2015-07-05T19:35:07Z nyef: Bah. The windows port was started because I was bored at work and I had realized that the given explanation for why there wasn't any windows support for SBCL was wrong.
2015-07-05T19:37:14Z |3b| appreciates the windows port, and the effort of maintaining it (even if not much at the moment)
2015-07-05T19:38:04Z Shinmera too
2015-07-05T19:39:42Z nyef: Yes. I'm glad that maintenance gets done on that code, even if I never want to even look at it again myself.
2015-07-05T19:39:56Z nyef: ... I suspect that the ARM backend might be the same. Time will tell.
2015-07-05T19:40:32Z |3b| hasn't run tests on arm in a while, i should probably do that too
2015-07-05T19:40:56Z nyef: I don't think I've done an ARM build since before the gencgc support got merged.
2015-07-05T19:41:40Z |3b|: ooh, made it through tests on windows and only had to kill the child process once :p
2015-07-05T19:42:35Z |3b|: looks like the other unexpected success from previous run was just luck
2015-07-05T19:42:39Z stassats: i don't run windows tests all the time because it tends to hang
2015-07-05T19:43:10Z |3b|: yeah, i usually kill the child 2 or 3 times to get to end :/
2015-07-05T19:43:24Z |3b|: just to see if any other random stuff broke
2015-07-05T19:43:51Z |3b|: and not complaining if you don't run them, you have better things to worry about :)
2015-07-05T19:44:12Z stassats: well, i'd like them not to hang
2015-07-05T19:44:29Z stassats: i know one deadlock path with sb-safepoint: consing in without-gcing
2015-07-05T19:44:32Z |3b|: sure, that's a potential "better thing" to worry about :)
2015-07-05T19:46:00Z |3b| also got unexpected success on :exercising-concurrent-syscalls
2015-07-05T19:48:15Z |3b|: not sure if that is consistent or not since timer.impure.lisp tends to not finish, and i usually forget to capture output to check manually
2015-07-05T19:52:20Z |3b| starts an arm build just for variety
2015-07-05T19:53:14Z stassats: i think i now have 32-bit and 64-bit gccs coexisting on arm
2015-07-05T19:53:24Z stassats: should test my recent changes affecting arm
2015-07-05T19:54:24Z stassats: "Emulating Linux MIPS in Perl – Part 1: ELF loader"
2015-07-05T19:54:28Z stassats: interesting...
2015-07-05T19:55:10Z stassats: http://schplog.schmorp.de/2015-06-08-emulating-linux-mips-in-perl-1.html
2015-07-05T19:55:24Z nyef: Oh good grief.
2015-07-05T19:56:54Z nyef: That's... more than a bit over-the-top.
2015-07-05T19:59:52Z stassats: why not a C emulator
2015-07-05T20:00:32Z nyef: Better question, can we get SBCL to run on that? (-:
2015-07-05T20:07:35Z |3b|: and now to run tests on arm
2015-07-05T20:09:30Z |3b|: and having run out of things to procrastinate with, i guess i should go back to trying to learn how to do the current version of "modern" gl programming
2015-07-05T20:16:26Z nyef: |3b|: Heh. And here I am, looking at learning how GL 1.1 or 1.2 works.
2015-07-05T20:16:48Z |3b|: :)
2015-07-05T20:18:00Z |3b| is looking into the "build a big list of commands and dump it on the GPU to draw entire scene with 1 API call" styles
2015-07-05T20:18:05Z nyef: (Seriously. I've gotten my hands on some very interesting hardware that pretty much speaks one of the early versions of GL "natively".)
2015-07-05T20:18:52Z |3b|: pretty much my motivation too, just different generation of hardware :)
2015-07-05T20:19:14Z nyef: As in, dump this constant into the FIFO for a glColor3ub, followed by the three bytes of color values...
2015-07-05T20:19:23Z |3b|: lets seen 3 float failures and 2 debug... sounds about like it did before i think
2015-07-05T20:25:38Z stassats: should mark them as expected
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2015-07-05T22:17:42Z stassats: i need somehow to either to disable the new slime feature which tries to parse forms when doing M-. or reign it in
2015-07-05T22:17:50Z stassats: it is seriously brain damaged
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2015-07-05T22:29:12Z stassats: probably i can make it fallback to the old mode if it crashes
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2015-07-07T17:49:13Z names: ccl-logbot foom psy_ Xach dougk_ gingerale stassats psilord oleo nyef milosn Shinmera angavrilov Adlai edgar-rft karswell rj-code kanru igajsin schjetne specbot minion scymtym jdz pkhuong fikusz les alchemis7 Intensity Blkt_ akkad fe[nl]ix carvite jackc- dustinm` irsol snafuchs abbe jsnell_ p_l flip214 reb salva Bike ferada PuercoPop loke brucem jibanes christoph_debian joshe |3b| nicdev pchrist jackdaniel dsp_ ivan4th mood tmh_ frankS2 yauz clop luis
2015-07-07T17:49:13Z names: drmeister antoszka
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2015-07-07T18:04:26Z luis: stassats: damn, really? I've been using it for a couple of months and never bumped it problems. :-/
2015-07-07T18:07:15Z stassats: luis: it's driving me crazy when using it on sbcl
2015-07-07T18:07:35Z stassats: which has non-existing packages, or unintended symbols, or forms which shouldn't be evaluated (vi #.)
2015-07-07T18:07:36Z stassats: via
2015-07-07T18:08:01Z luis: hmm, right. I deal with very bland code in that regard.
2015-07-07T18:08:16Z stassats: but what did the new code solve?
2015-07-07T18:08:43Z luis: You can M-. to local bindings (functions and variables)
2015-07-07T18:09:43Z stassats: never noticed that, now what if i don't want to?
2015-07-07T18:10:09Z stassats: it's pretty cool when you want to do that, pretty uncool when you want to get to the global definition
2015-07-07T18:10:10Z luis: you'd disable the slime-mdot-fu contrib... somehow
2015-07-07T18:11:12Z stassats: but that's not what's causing the problem
2015-07-07T18:11:46Z stassats: there's a ticket https://github.com/slime/slime/issues/242
2015-07-07T18:12:18Z luis: Oh, I don't know what you're talking about, then.
2015-07-07T18:13:38Z stassats: i'll try my strategy of doing it the old way upon failure
2015-07-07T18:15:29Z stassats: or maybe i can disable source parser locally
2015-07-07T18:16:10Z stassats: i did get misplaced source locations before (not sure if it solves this) but it didn't have such problems
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2015-07-07T18:31:52Z stassats: i don't care about the right solution for now, slapping ignore-errors around seems to help
2015-07-07T18:37:20Z |3b|: is that the part that breaks if you M-. on LOOP with sbcl?
2015-07-07T18:37:33Z |3b|: someone was running into that on #lisp
2015-07-07T18:37:42Z stassats: if it did, it's fixed now
2015-07-07T18:38:25Z stassats: M-. intern was broken
2015-07-07T18:39:15Z stassats: that'll stop me from throwing the laptop out of the window
2015-07-07T18:40:20Z |3b| gets a (No location) for (DEFUN INTERN) and a location for (DECLAIM INTERN ...), but an error about DEF!METHOD not found in SB-INT for LOOP
2015-07-07T18:40:39Z stassats: if you pull, that would be fixed
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2015-07-07T19:35:08Z luis: Cool, thanks stassats.
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2015-07-08T04:32:00Z loke: I have found an inconsistency in SBCL that I would like some comment on.
2015-07-08T04:32:23Z loke: The following returns NIL,T → (subtypep '(real 1) '(and real (satisfies plusp)))
2015-07-08T04:32:37Z loke: However, the following returns NIL,NIL:
2015-07-08T04:32:43Z loke: (subtypep '(integer 1) '(and integer (satisfies plusp)))
2015-07-08T04:37:21Z Bike: the first result is just wrong, isn't it
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2015-07-08T04:39:21Z loke: Exactly
2015-07-08T04:39:35Z loke: The second one is correct
2015-07-08T04:51:01Z nyef: Good luck on that. It's probably yet another bit of  buried treasure in code/late-type.lisp.
2015-07-08T04:51:37Z nyef: Ah. I bet it's because REAL is a UNION type, while INTEGER is not.
2015-07-08T04:52:02Z nyef: You might cross-check with FLOAT, SINGLE-FLOAT, and DOUBLE-FLOAT.
2015-07-08T04:52:06Z loke: Union type?
2015-07-08T04:52:52Z nyef: Do (sb-kernel:specifier-type '(real 1)).
2015-07-08T04:53:30Z loke: FLOAT suffers from the problem, doubl-eflaot does not
2015-07-08T04:53:58Z nyef: And SINGLE-FLOAT ?
2015-07-08T04:54:14Z nyef: FLOAT also being a UNION type.
2015-07-08T04:55:05Z nyef notes, once again, that STRING is (OR (VECTOR CHARACTER) (VECTOR NIL) BASE-STRING).
2015-07-08T04:55:17Z loke: single works
2015-07-08T04:55:23Z loke: (dolist (type '(integer real float double-float single-float))
2015-07-08T04:55:23Z loke:            (format t "~a: ~s~%" type (multiple-value-list (subtypep (list type (coerce 1 type))
2015-07-08T04:55:24Z loke:                                                                     `(and ,type (satisfies plusp))))))
2015-07-08T04:55:25Z nyef: Okay, so it's that it's a union type.
2015-07-08T04:56:00Z loke: But what is a union type?
2015-07-08T04:56:21Z nyef: It's what you get when you use OR in a type specifier.
2015-07-08T04:57:48Z loke: I
2015-07-08T04:57:55Z loke: I'll post on sbcl-devel
2015-07-08T04:59:21Z nyef: So, two issues here. First is that the "correct" answer is T,T. Second is that if we don't interpret the satisfies type, the answer must be NIL,NIL. Is that it?
2015-07-08T05:02:30Z nyef: ... Come to think of it, it's 1 AM, and I've already singed my fingers messing with the type system at one point.
2015-07-08T05:08:11Z loke: Well, actually the "correct" answer is only T,T for integers
2015-07-08T05:08:16Z loke: no wait
2015-07-08T05:08:28Z loke: sorry, of course it's always correct
2015-07-08T05:10:04Z loke: SBCL could be smart enough to transform (SATISIFES PLUSP) into something like (<typename> ε)
2015-07-08T05:12:28Z loke: where ε ≡ LEAST-POSITIVE-SHORT-FLOAT
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2015-07-08T12:35:03Z pkhuong: nice. type union is doing the right thing there
2015-07-08T12:36:21Z pkhuong: the problem is type= returns NIL, T for (single-float 1f0) (and (single-float 1f0) (satisfies plusp))
2015-07-08T12:38:13Z pkhuong: woah woah woah
2015-07-08T12:38:24Z pkhuong: how is the default for !invoke-type-method (values nil t)?
2015-07-08T12:38:42Z stassats: clhs subtypep
2015-07-08T12:38:42Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_subtpp.htm
2015-07-08T12:41:08Z pkhuong: anyway, override the default to (values nil nil) in type= should do it.
2015-07-08T12:41:56Z stassats: what if it's the right thing for some cases?
2015-07-08T12:42:48Z pkhuong: then we should add type methods to handle these cases
2015-07-08T12:43:08Z pkhuong: I'm not saying we should change the default default value  in !invoke-type-method
2015-07-08T12:43:26Z pkhuong: just set a correct one for type=, which is "we don't know" when we don't know
2015-07-08T12:44:05Z pkhuong: I think the default should be (values nil t) if both types are simple, (values nil nil) otherwise
2015-07-08T12:44:52Z stassats: is there anything besides satisfies and undefined-types which will cause nil nil?
2015-07-08T12:47:15Z pkhuong: not sure. I'll try to find a third way in the shower
2015-07-08T12:47:24Z ferada:  /win 10
2015-07-08T12:48:23Z stassats: what i'm saying is that if it involves undefined-types or satisfies, then it should always nil-nil
2015-07-08T12:49:12Z pkhuong: right. and I'm trying to see if I can find another example that is definitely nil-nil
2015-07-08T12:50:38Z stassats: "permitted to return the values false and false only when at least one argument involves one of these type specifiers: and, eql, the list form
2015-07-08T12:50:38Z stassats: of function, member, not, or, satisfies, or values."
2015-07-08T12:51:43Z pkhuong: this is for type=
2015-07-08T12:52:03Z pkhuong: and AND/OR/NOT are definitely involved.
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2015-07-08T15:12:18Z Bike: loke: you can have types with exclusive bounds so you can transform (satisfies plusp) into (real (0)). probably not important though
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2015-07-08T22:33:56Z stassats: looking at the fill transform for vectors, why does it combines the value to be bashed
2015-07-08T22:34:22Z nyef: Word-wise operation, maybe? Guessing, here.
2015-07-08T22:34:24Z stassats: it's not using a ub64 basher, but a specific width basher
2015-07-08T22:34:28Z nyef: Hunh.
2015-07-08T22:34:41Z stassats: maybe it did in the past?
2015-07-08T22:36:13Z stassats: anyhow, that's what's causing the problem reported by |3b|
2015-07-08T22:36:17Z stassats: not sure how exactly yet
2015-07-08T22:37:28Z stassats: since the values should be cut off
2015-07-08T22:37:33Z stassats: eventually
2015-07-08T22:38:03Z stassats: ok, apparently, even the specific widht bashers need word sized values
2015-07-08T22:38:59Z stassats: what's the point then?
2015-07-08T22:42:12Z stassats: probably just length calculation?
2015-07-08T22:42:17Z pkhuong: alignment and length?
2015-07-08T22:42:44Z stassats: well, it could compute the value too then
2015-07-08T22:43:25Z stassats: anway, ORing things in a loop is what throws dxing off
2015-07-08T22:46:11Z stassats: oring word values also is bound to cons
2015-07-08T22:46:58Z stassats: so, bit bashers should accept width restricted values and construct word values from them
2015-07-08T22:56:58Z stassats: Unhandled memory fault at #xA0A0A0A0A0A.
2015-07-08T22:57:02Z stassats: this is an interesting address
2015-07-08T22:57:46Z stassats: filling an ub8 array with 10
2015-07-08T22:58:18Z stassats: Memory fault at 0x10101010101 (pc=0x10101010101 pc is there too?
2015-07-08T22:58:28Z stassats: quite interesting
2015-07-08T23:04:59Z stassats: so it overwrites the return address, but how come that only happens when there is a loop computing the mask?
2015-07-08T23:08:48Z stassats: there is RESET-STACK-POINTER involved
2015-07-08T23:09:14Z stassats: is this a stack analysis problem again?
2015-07-08T23:14:08Z stassats: %dummy-dx-alloc is involved
2015-07-08T23:14:58Z stassats: so, a loop throws off stack analysis
2015-07-08T23:15:08Z stassats: nyef: that's your territory
2015-07-08T23:15:33Z nyef: Oh, hell. Really?
2015-07-08T23:16:49Z nyef: Wait, a dx-alloc inside a loop?
2015-07-08T23:17:01Z stassats: nope, there's a loop in the middle
2015-07-08T23:17:42Z stassats: (defun foo3 (c) (let ((s (fill (make-array 30 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)) c))) (declare (sb-int:truly-dynamic-extent s)) (princ s) 10))
2015-07-08T23:17:49Z stassats: the source transform of FILL inserts a loop
2015-07-08T23:20:50Z stassats: in disassembly, around the loop check there is MOV [RBP-32], RSP    CMP RDX, 128     JEQ L3    MOV RAX, [RBP-32]    MOV RSP, RAX
2015-07-08T23:21:33Z nyef: I'm looking at trace output now.
2015-07-08T23:23:21Z nyef: Where's the FILL transform defined?
2015-07-08T23:23:30Z stassats: M-. it?
2015-07-08T23:24:00Z nyef: Let's pretend I don't have a current SLIME session.
2015-07-08T23:24:08Z stassats: seqtran
2015-07-08T23:24:13Z nyef: Thank you.
2015-07-08T23:25:06Z nyef: ... This transform is horrifying.
2015-07-08T23:25:16Z stassats: you didn't think stack analysis was so easy?
2015-07-08T23:27:19Z stassats: the mask can be computed without a loop
2015-07-08T23:27:42Z nyef: Why the heck are d-x packets piling up all over the place here?
2015-07-08T23:27:42Z stassats: but this still  exposes a problem with SA
2015-07-08T23:28:32Z stassats: (and i want to get rid of mask computation completely for bashing, to avoid consing a bignum)
2015-07-08T23:29:20Z stassats: so, needs a better test case
2015-07-08T23:30:21Z nyef: The result of ALLOCATE-VECTOR is a packet, dv20. Then there's a reference to SEQ that is a packet, dv70. And then the result of UB8-BASH-FILL is a packet, dv76.
2015-07-08T23:31:00Z nyef: And they're all part of the same DX environment.
2015-07-08T23:33:16Z stassats: not sure how FILL manages to preserve stack allocation
2015-07-08T23:34:28Z nyef: So, we get into an entry NIL, and a LET for ((I 8)).
2015-07-08T23:34:40Z nyef: Another entry NIL.
2015-07-08T23:34:58Z nyef: Then (EQ I 64), with a branch.
2015-07-08T23:35:10Z stassats: REPLACE can dx too, but DELETE cannot
2015-07-08T23:35:34Z nyef: If they're not EQ... something happens.
2015-07-08T23:35:54Z nyef: ... with LOGIOR and ASH and +.
2015-07-08T23:36:07Z stassats: that's the mask
2015-07-08T23:36:16Z nyef: Which dumps back to the block with the EQ.
2015-07-08T23:36:34Z nyef: But... oh, hell.
2015-07-08T23:36:51Z nyef: The environment for some of these blocks is not part of the entry environment for the DX.
2015-07-08T23:39:31Z nyef: Is this the bit, (loop for i of-type sb!vm:word from ,n-bits by ,n-bits until (= i sb!vm:n-word-bits) ...) ?
2015-07-08T23:39:31Z stassats: no idea how REPLACE and FILL manage that
2015-07-08T23:39:41Z stassats: nyef: looks like
2015-07-08T23:42:05Z nyef: It's probably something with BACK-PROPAGATE-ONE-DX-LVAR in stack.lisp.
2015-07-08T23:42:07Z stassats: as i suspected, through fun-info-result-arg, but delete has it too
2015-07-08T23:42:35Z stassats: oh, it does not, actually
2015-07-08T23:45:57Z nyef: Hrm. c67 (pop) -> c97 -> c123 (dummy) -> c57 (eq) -> c67 (or c66, but that path is fine).
2015-07-08T23:46:29Z nyef: Does not compute.
2015-07-08T23:46:51Z nyef: It's a closed loop, no other entries or exits.
2015-07-08T23:46:52Z stassats: looks like fun-info-result-arg was specifically introduced for allowing dx allocation to see through FILL and REPLACE
2015-07-08T23:48:30Z nyef: Oh.
2015-07-08T23:49:53Z nyef: The loop passes through the same block twice.
2015-07-08T23:50:13Z stassats: why does it overwrite RSP's save location?
2015-07-08T23:50:38Z nyef: That trips the infinite loop detector, so it stops searching at that point, and never marks the blocks in the loop as having the DX value live.
2015-07-08T23:50:44Z stassats: it doesn't do anything with RSP,  just overwrites its save location
2015-07-08T23:51:40Z nyef: No, there's a RESET-STACK-POINTER in there.
2015-07-08T23:52:04Z stassats: nyef: can you think of a test-case which doesn't involved the fill transform?
2015-07-08T23:52:25Z nyef: Almost certainly.
2015-07-08T23:52:27Z stassats: since i'm planning on modifying it in the future
2015-07-08T23:52:36Z stassats: and the current test-case would lose its force
2015-07-08T23:56:48Z stassats: and if you can't think of a fix, i can modify it sooner, so that at least this symptom goes away
2015-07-08T23:56:52Z nyef: Got one.
2015-07-08T23:57:11Z nyef: ... Going to try to be more clever.
2015-07-09T00:00:04Z nyef: Check this out:
2015-07-09T00:00:06Z nyef: (defun bar (x) (let ((y (let ((z (cons nil nil))) (let ((i 0)) (tagbody b1 (when (= x i) (go b2)) (incf i) (go b1) b2)) z)) (w (cons t t))) (declare (dynamic-extent y w)) (eq y w)))
2015-07-09T00:00:20Z nyef: Try (BAR 0) and (BAR 1). (-:
2015-07-09T00:02:12Z stassats: NIL and T
2015-07-09T00:02:22Z nyef: Yup.
2015-07-09T00:02:24Z stassats: doesn't sound exactly right
2015-07-09T00:02:36Z nyef: Right, should both be NIL, but for the stack bug.
2015-07-09T00:03:06Z stassats: and it is the same problem?
2015-07-09T00:03:13Z nyef: Yes, it is.
2015-07-09T00:03:32Z nyef: Run it through the trace, and you'll see the same damage around the (INCF I).
2015-07-09T00:06:06Z nyef: So, the infinite-loop detector in BACK-PROPAGATE-ONE-DX-LVAR operates in terms of node (block) identity, but it should be operating in terms of arc (transition between one block and its predecessor) identity.
2015-07-09T00:06:43Z stassats: why does it need to identify infinite loops?
2015-07-09T00:07:13Z nyef: Because it does a depth-first search over an arbitrarily complex chunk of flow graph.
2015-07-09T00:07:37Z stassats: so it identifies the loop in the graph, not in the code?
2015-07-09T00:07:39Z nyef: And we'd like it not to either take forever or blow the stack or heap.
2015-07-09T00:07:51Z nyef: Right.
2015-07-09T00:08:34Z nyef: But it's doing the detection wrong. It's not that it doesn't want to visit the same node twice, it's that it shouldn't take the same ARC twice.
2015-07-09T00:11:01Z nyef tries to figure out how to rewrite the code to accomplish this.
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2015-07-09T00:25:31Z nyef: Okay, how about http://paste.lisp.org/display/151219 ?
2015-07-09T00:26:00Z stassats: it loops over my head
2015-07-09T00:27:58Z nyef: It's a bit consier, but it basically changes out the representation of the path so that instead of being a list of blocks, it's a list of pairs of blocks, and then instead of checking for the loop condition on a per-node basis after following the arc, it checks on a per-arc basis before following the arc.
2015-07-09T00:37:08Z nyef: Okay, what's the bug number for this?
2015-07-09T00:37:57Z stassats: lp 1472785
2015-07-09T00:37:58Z specbot: https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1472785
2015-07-09T00:38:35Z nyef: Thank you.
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2015-07-09T00:54:14Z |3b|: nyef: is there anything keeping that MEMBER from being a performance pr,oblem?
2015-07-09T00:55:51Z |3b|: though i guess it had one before any nobody complained, so nevermind:)
2015-07-09T00:56:43Z nyef: The main thing that would cause it to be a problem is the complexity of the flow-graph between DX-allocating a value and the start of its environment.
2015-07-09T00:57:11Z nyef: Also, correctness before speed!
2015-07-09T00:57:25Z stassats: so, is this the last bug in SA?
2015-07-09T00:58:03Z |3b|: yeah, correctness is good :)
2015-07-09T00:58:03Z nyef: Shh! Don't jinx it!
2015-07-09T00:58:31Z stassats: i'm anxious to see all the bugs in SBCL fixed
2015-07-09T00:59:09Z nyef: Well, unfortunately, we're in "so complicated there are no obvious bugs" territory, rather than "so simple there are obviously no bugs" territory.
2015-07-09T00:59:32Z stassats: the problem is that new features are being added
2015-07-09T00:59:58Z stassats: and i'm talking about known bugs
2015-07-09T01:00:14Z nyef: In this case, it's not a new feature, it's a mistake in the fix for a *very* longstanding bug.
2015-07-09T01:02:14Z nyef: So, who do we credit on this one?
2015-07-09T01:02:57Z stassats: Alan Smithee
2015-07-09T01:03:30Z nyef: ... Seriously?
2015-07-09T01:03:43Z stassats: why not
2015-07-09T01:04:14Z nyef: Who originally reported it?
2015-07-09T01:04:36Z stassats: uh, you mean the bug-report
2015-07-09T01:04:54Z stassats: i thought about the bug credit
2015-07-09T01:05:00Z nyef: I can see that |3b| wrote up the bug report.
2015-07-09T01:05:11Z stassats: and referenced  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Smithee
2015-07-09T01:05:30Z nyef: Ah, no.
2015-07-09T01:05:48Z nyef: I know exactly who put the bug in there in the first place.
2015-07-09T01:05:56Z |3b|: original problem was noticed by jasom on #lisp i think
2015-07-09T01:05:59Z nyef: And will quite happily point the finger.
2015-07-09T01:10:31Z nyef: Okay, putting together a commit now.
2015-07-09T01:12:38Z nyef: Actually, doing a build and smoke test, first.
2015-07-09T01:16:16Z |3b|: is using EQUAL on something that might have cycles a problem? (assuming i'm interpreting that patch right)
2015-07-09T01:16:43Z |3b|: i guess it would probably find something that didn't match first most of the time
2015-07-09T01:16:45Z nyef: How would it have cycles? It's testing a CONS of two CBLOCKs.
2015-07-09T01:17:17Z |3b|: ok, falls under "not interpreting it right" then :)
2015-07-09T01:17:38Z |3b|: i guess it is the thing containing them that it is trying to avoid cycles in?
2015-07-09T01:18:19Z nyef: We're trying to avoid following around a loop in the flow graph more than once.
2015-07-09T01:19:00Z stassats: put a state into the graph?
2015-07-09T01:19:05Z nyef: You're looking at the (member new-arc path :test #'equal), right?
2015-07-09T01:19:16Z |3b|: yeah
2015-07-09T01:19:25Z nyef: stassats: Runs into the same problem as before: The state is on the nodes, not the arcs.
2015-07-09T01:19:52Z nyef: So, PATH is never mutated, starts as NIL, and is built up using LIST*.
2015-07-09T01:20:18Z nyef: Each NEW-ARC is produced using CONS on two CBLOCKs, which are opaque to EQUAL.
2015-07-09T01:20:39Z |3b|: ah, right
2015-07-09T01:21:01Z |3b| somehow forgot how equal works despite looking at the clhs page :/
2015-07-09T01:21:38Z nyef: I actually looked it up, just to make sure. Otherwise, there'd've been a LAMBDA there to compare the CAR and CDR with EQ. (-:
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2015-07-09T01:40:50Z nyef: Okay, commit pushed.
2015-07-09T01:41:16Z nyef: That really took about two and a half hours? Eesh.
2015-07-09T01:55:05Z |3b|: seems to work on windows
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2015-07-09T02:00:12Z nyef: Okay, my github streak is safe for today, and I have enough simple things planned out to last me through next Thursday.
2015-07-09T02:00:50Z nyef: So much for getting anything else done tonight, though.
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2015-07-09T02:12:41Z |3b|: should the symbol sb-unix:sigint exist on windows?
2015-07-09T02:16:15Z |3b|: currently failing to READ that due to package lock causes "Unhandled Error     signals.impure.lisp"
2015-07-09T02:43:11Z nyef: Hrm. Just ran the full test suite, and got a failure in type.pure.lisp / ADJUST-ARRAY-CHANGES-TYPE-OF.
2015-07-09T02:53:54Z loke: 3b: does sb-unix exist at all on winodws?
2015-07-09T02:54:58Z |3b|: it does
2015-07-09T02:55:05Z loke: why? :-)
2015-07-09T02:55:30Z |3b|: easier than #-windows around all the uses?
2015-07-09T02:55:49Z loke: 3b: Well, SIGINT should be in SB-POSIX now shouldn't it?
2015-07-09T02:55:50Z |3b|: followed by #+windows sb-windows:exact-same-thing
2015-07-09T02:55:53Z loke: (and as I check, it is)
2015-07-09T02:56:33Z |3b|: yeah, looks like i have that
2015-07-09T02:59:31Z |3b|: still doesn't say whether it should also be in sb-unix though
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2015-07-09T12:41:50Z scymtym: dougk_: the next iteration of my patch-set for a DEPRECATED declaration is almost done. could you advise on the globaldb usage and avoiding self-build warnings aspects?
2015-07-09T12:56:03Z nyef sighs.
2015-07-09T12:56:45Z nyef: Every so often, we seem to run into a case where something in the compiler performs a non-flow-sensitive analysis for something, and it turns out that a flow-sensitive analysis is required.
2015-07-09T13:04:06Z nyef: Oh, hell. We don't even have dominance information in IR1?
2015-07-09T13:04:32Z nyef: That makes flow analysis a bit trickier.
2015-07-09T13:09:29Z stassats: some more bugs?
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2015-07-09T13:19:01Z nyef: 1446891.
2015-07-09T13:19:50Z stassats: lp 1446891
2015-07-09T13:19:50Z specbot: https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1446891
2015-07-09T13:19:51Z nyef: There's a single USE of A, so the compiler believes that a substitution is licensed, but there's a loop in the flow graph, so it's not.
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2015-07-09T13:26:32Z nyef: The substitution of the USE of Y is legitimate, but the substitution for A is not.
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2015-07-09T14:30:09Z flip214: when I've got memory mapped (Rpi2, GPIO-registers), is SAP-REF-x the right way to read/write it?
2015-07-09T14:37:34Z dougk_: scymtym: I'm not sure if there were any self-build warnings re. deprecation, but the mechanism as-is most certainly doesn't work portably, as it relies on looking at what the name of a compiler-macro is.
2015-07-09T14:38:42Z dougk_: So I think what I did was #- out some parts that couldn't work, and that required ignoring some vars here and there.
2015-07-09T14:39:09Z scymtym: dougk_: what i wanted to say is that i will have to introduce additional forward declarations to avoid new self-build warnings. maybe you can check those (in addition to the globaldb stuff)
2015-07-09T14:39:21Z dougk_: happy to
2015-07-09T14:39:33Z scymtym: i will send the updated patch-set in a few minutes, i think
2015-07-09T14:39:40Z scymtym: thanks in advance
2015-07-09T14:43:41Z nyef: flip214: Yes.
2015-07-09T14:43:42Z dougk_: nyef: my ADJUST-ARRAY test fails reliably on windows?
2015-07-09T14:44:11Z nyef: dougk_: I have no idea. I haven't done anything with windows in ages.
2015-07-09T14:44:29Z nyef: I can take a brief look in a little bit.
2015-07-09T14:44:37Z flip214: nyef: thanks ... but I get strange values. http://paste.lisp.org/display/151241 if you care to take a look...
2015-07-09T14:45:47Z nyef: What on earth is SAP-REF-OCTETS ?
2015-07-09T14:46:04Z flip214: a loop over sap-ref-8, I guess...
2015-07-09T14:46:14Z flip214: at least it gives the same result.
2015-07-09T14:47:06Z nyef: Ah, yeah, a loop over SAP-REF-8.
2015-07-09T14:47:52Z nyef: What you might be looking at is hardware that doesn't respond correctly to 8-bit accesses.
2015-07-09T14:48:22Z flip214: well, I didn't try to match up the bits, but the 32bit values look more bogus to me.
2015-07-09T14:48:55Z nyef: That's another possibility.
2015-07-09T14:49:10Z nyef: It could be hardware that only responds correctly to 8-bit accesses.
2015-07-09T14:49:24Z flip214: the datasheet says these are 32bit registers...
2015-07-09T14:49:34Z flip214: so, is there a more low-level alternative to accessing mmap()ed (IO)memory?
2015-07-09T14:49:44Z flip214: that corresponds to "just" a read or write?
2015-07-09T14:49:45Z |3b|: dougk_: didn't notice that test failing on windows
2015-07-09T14:50:46Z dougk_: 3b: ah, yes i misinterpreted the proximity of your comments to nyef's, who had only said it failed, without implying on what platform
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2015-07-09T14:51:27Z dougk_: so i'll rephrase the question: for whom does ADJUST-ARRAY-CHANGES-TYPE-OF *not* work ?
2015-07-09T14:51:57Z nyef: dougk_: This would be the test failure in type.pure.lisp?
2015-07-09T14:52:06Z dougk_: nyef:  yes
2015-07-09T14:52:17Z nyef: Failed last night on linux/x86-64.
2015-07-09T14:53:48Z nyef: What's this commit with the message "Checkpoint"?
2015-07-09T14:54:17Z stassats: "Also, sorry for the stupid commit message that said "Checkpoint". I had put some work on hold but forgot I was on master. Anyway, it's a good checkin: it makes CLOOP defined before used."
2015-07-09T14:54:23Z dougk_: yah, that was sort of a mistake in the message
2015-07-09T14:55:50Z nyef: Ah, okay.
2015-07-09T14:56:06Z nyef: So, the classic damage that we used to get with CVS?
2015-07-09T14:56:32Z stassats: adjusting an array to which another array is displaced won't change the displaced array type, right?
2015-07-09T14:56:45Z dougk_: uh, ... maybe ? since it was all within a matter of seconds I could _probably_ have amended and repushed both changes but didn't want to risk it
2015-07-09T14:56:56Z dougk_: stassats: not sure
2015-07-09T14:56:57Z stassats: can't change specialization, and the length stays the same
2015-07-09T14:58:15Z dougk_: stassats: "can't", but https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1331299
2015-07-09T14:59:02Z nyef: flip214: No, that's the lowest level that we have, on the level of a single MOV instruction (or equivalent, for whatever architecture).
2015-07-09T15:00:33Z nyef: flip214: I would suggest that the word-wise accesses are correct, and that the first octet access is correct, but the subsequent (unaligned) octet accesses are pulling garbage.
2015-07-09T15:00:56Z nyef: On the other hand, I really don't know, because I'm not at all familiar with that hardware.
2015-07-09T15:03:08Z nyef: flip214: For what it's worth, I've been messing with some hardware (in C) that uses 32-bit wide registers mapped within 64-bit wide slots, on the high half. So I have to use 4 and C as the low nybble on the address. And if I screw that addressing pattern up in the slightest, the hardware will stop talking to me and I have to reboot.
2015-07-09T15:04:01Z nyef: flip214: And you're on a 32-bit platform, so SAP-REF-WORD is equivalent to SAP-REF-32.
2015-07-09T15:04:14Z nyef: ... Why do you set your pastes to expire?
2015-07-09T15:16:13Z stassats: stupid linux always breaking things, now my usb-ethernet interface is not named usb0 but nex[mac address]
2015-07-09T15:18:42Z nyef: Is that the kernel changing, or the userland? Or did you change both, and thus don't know?
2015-07-09T15:18:50Z stassats: both
2015-07-09T15:19:00Z nyef: Lovely.
2015-07-09T15:19:17Z nyef: Probably some change to udev or whatever they're using these days, rather than the kernel.
2015-07-09T15:19:53Z nyef: But yeah, I'm not quite impressed with the Linux user experience at this point.
2015-07-09T15:20:13Z stassats: i don't mind things being named in a particular way, but not changing all them time
2015-07-09T15:21:19Z stassats: renamed it back to usb0 using udev
2015-07-09T15:22:11Z nyef: Exactly. It's hard enough to get everything working in the first place, but for it to suddenly break when you upgrade (or even just update!) is a bit much.
2015-07-09T15:25:01Z stassats: so, tested sap-ref code on ARM, everything as expected
2015-07-09T15:25:09Z stassats: so, it's just gpio giving different results
2015-07-09T15:25:30Z nyef: Which, as I said, could "just" be the hardware being funky.
2015-07-09T15:25:47Z nyef: Try a C program, see if it gives the same results?
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2015-07-09T17:24:29Z flip214: nyef: thanks for the details.
2015-07-09T17:24:53Z flip214: stassats: thanks for confirming.
2015-07-09T17:25:14Z flip214: I guess I'll try https://gist.github.com/chomy/003deea83b5a13ad1ee3 next.
2015-07-09T17:25:22Z flip214: that uses FFI to call an (existing) library...
2015-07-09T17:25:36Z stassats: i didn't confirm anything
2015-07-09T17:25:44Z flip214: will be a bit slower than direct access, but that shouldn't matter. it's just that the pwrite() calls at 160µsec each are too slow.
2015-07-09T17:26:47Z nyef: Hrm. Okay, I see what this thing is doing that is wrong, and I see that the analysis that says that it's okay to do so is lacking... but I don't understand why it doesn't do it if any simplification is done on the test case.
2015-07-09T17:41:22Z nyef: I wonder if the substitute-single-use-lvar bit is a red herring?
2015-07-09T17:56:59Z nyef: Okay, not a red herring.
2015-07-09T17:57:42Z nyef: The REF is in the IF, and the DEST is a CAST to FIXNUM for the DECLARE TYPE.
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2015-07-09T18:42:40Z nyef: ... This possibly only doesn't break in normal operation by a trick of evaluation order?!?
2015-07-09T19:02:30Z stassats: i think i had a crack at this, but don't remember anything
2015-07-09T19:02:37Z stassats: i guess i should write things down
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2015-07-09T21:01:11Z nyef: stassats: You must have had a crack at it, you wrote the currently-minimal test case.
2015-07-09T21:01:36Z stassats: yes, that's what suggests that i had
2015-07-09T21:01:52Z stassats: but i could make a test case without trying to fix it
2015-07-09T21:01:55Z nyef: I'm getting the distinct impression that some of the "optimization" things that IR1 does properly depend on flow-sensitive analysis, but don't necessarily do said analysis.
2015-07-09T21:04:10Z pkhuong: I think most of these issues eventually stem from the fact that the output of IR1 isn't really specified
2015-07-09T21:05:03Z nyef: This one with substitute-single-use-lvar, for example, could do with precisely the same analysis that is done during STACK that I fixed last night, but that analysis is bounded by a block dominance relation, and the dominators aren't computed until post-IR1.
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2015-07-09T23:59:45Z nyef: So, I'm poking through the bug database, and I come across lp#1292673. Very scarce on the information, but it does track down a commit range.
2015-07-09T23:59:59Z stassats: lp 1292673
2015-07-09T23:59:59Z specbot: https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1292673
2015-07-10T00:00:04Z nyef: (Okay, a range of two consecutive versions.)
2015-07-10T00:00:22Z nyef: There's ONE commit in that range that looks relevant: 96aa790ea1d70810e862665c3c8be4ce405a964c
2015-07-10T00:00:33Z nyef: "handle non-standard slot allocations when updating classes"
2015-07-10T00:07:30Z nyef: Anyway, I'm not sure what, if anything, can be done here, given the lack of a test case.
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2015-07-10T00:28:09Z stassats: nyef: any headway with the substitute-single-use-lvar bug?
2015-07-10T00:28:25Z nyef: Nope.
2015-07-10T00:28:53Z nyef: The question, to my mind, isn't why it happens, it's why it doesn't happen most of the time.
2015-07-10T00:29:57Z nyef: Straight-up, it's using a linear heuristic instead of a flow-sensitive analysis for a flow-sensitive problem.
2015-07-10T00:30:48Z stassats: the problem is that it's not a single use var?
2015-07-10T00:30:59Z stassats: or that it's a set var?
2015-07-10T00:31:27Z nyef: At the point where it gets substituted, it IS a single-use var, but there's some back-propagation going on.
2015-07-10T00:31:56Z nyef: I don't quite know what's going on there yet.
2015-07-10T00:32:18Z stassats: i should really write things down
2015-07-10T00:32:27Z nyef: And right now I'm trying to scan for low-hanging fruit.
2015-07-10T00:33:32Z stassats: i still don't have a good hang of lvars, leafs, refs, etc. to quickly reason about them
2015-07-10T00:38:17Z nyef: Yeah, IR1 is still a bit of a weak spot for me, too.
2015-07-10T00:38:53Z stassats: i guess because it's not so easy to play with it
2015-07-10T00:39:03Z stassats: and hard to map code to it
2015-07-10T00:39:18Z stassats: and no good visualization tools
2015-07-10T00:39:19Z nyef: Too many weird "optimization" things going on.
2015-07-10T00:39:48Z stassats: it would be nice to have a tool which recorded changes of each transformation step
2015-07-10T00:40:08Z stassats: that you can step through then
2015-07-10T00:40:42Z nyef: What I'd like is a validated compilation infrastructure. Essentially, proof that the program semantics haven't changed at any given step, or an AVER fails.
2015-07-10T00:41:57Z attila_lendvai: for C: http://compcert.inria.fr/
2015-07-10T00:43:12Z nyef: attila_lendvai: Yes, I am aware. One of the reasons why I think having something similar for CL, even if it's not SBCL, would be awesome.
2015-07-10T00:44:07Z stassats: starting from scratch is tempting
2015-07-10T00:44:11Z stassats: but it's a rabbit hole
2015-07-10T00:44:19Z attila_lendvai: delving into that program proving stuff is on my hacker-todo list. I've played with some stuff, but nothing of the level of practicality
2015-07-10T00:44:40Z nyef: stassats: Only if you're writing a Scheme compiler!
2015-07-10T00:44:50Z stassats: right
2015-07-10T00:46:12Z stassats: nyef: and which variable is being wrongly substituted? X?
2015-07-10T00:48:33Z nyef: The reference to Y getting substituted triggers it, somehow, but the damage comes when the reference to A at the top of the tagbody gets snapped out.
2015-07-10T00:49:23Z stassats: why is it so fragile? why is a cast for A important?
2015-07-10T00:49:55Z nyef: If you take a trace-file both with and without the invocation of (EMPTY), you'll see that they differ primarily around the reference to A in that IF statement.
2015-07-10T00:49:59Z stassats: i guess it works together with (declare (type fixnum y))
2015-07-10T00:51:02Z nyef: The broken version has the A snapped out, and the LVAR extends from the CAST for the first LET all the way down to the RETURN, but it gets stomped by the LET at the top of the loop.
2015-07-10T00:51:25Z nyef: And because it actually IS a loop, it's a bad substitution somewhere.
2015-07-10T00:52:08Z stassats: and (return) has to be hidden
2015-07-10T00:52:18Z stassats: weird stuff
2015-07-10T00:52:19Z nyef: If you then TRACE the substitute function, you'll find that the two processes run through a different sequence of attempted substitutions.
2015-07-10T00:52:52Z stassats: trying to simplify the test-case
2015-07-10T00:52:57Z stassats: again
2015-07-10T00:53:13Z nyef: Good luck. I think it might be dependent on evaluation order of various optimizations.
2015-07-10T00:54:05Z stassats: http://paste.lisp.org/display/151256
2015-07-10T00:54:25Z nyef: Hmm!
2015-07-10T00:55:01Z nyef: But both parts of the FLET are still required, aren't they?
2015-07-10T00:55:09Z stassats: right
2015-07-10T00:55:36Z nyef: That's part of why I'm thinking evaluation order or similar.
2015-07-10T00:57:43Z stassats: another variation i got it to compile to L0:   EBFE             JMP L0
2015-07-10T00:57:59Z stassats: (wrongly)
2015-07-10T00:58:10Z nyef: That sounds like it might also be worth investigating.
2015-07-10T00:59:49Z stassats: less variables: http://paste.lisp.org/display/151256#1
2015-07-10T01:02:12Z nyef: The FLETs have to be foxing LET conversion, at least temporarily, but why doesn't this sort of thing break more often?
2015-07-10T01:02:59Z stassats: got a stranger crash "The variable * is unbound."
2015-07-10T01:03:21Z stassats: i don't get it
2015-07-10T01:03:37Z stassats: i think i just messed up something with (safety 0)
2015-07-10T01:09:22Z stassats: there's %ALLOCATE-CLOSURES, are they not deleted before tracing prints?
2015-07-10T01:09:36Z stassats: :KIND :ZOMBIE
2015-07-10T01:10:26Z nyef: I think that they still hang around, they just get LTN-converted into a no-op.
2015-07-10T01:10:38Z nyef: Or IR2-converted into a no-op. One or the other.
2015-07-10T01:10:57Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2015-07-10T01:11:38Z nyef: Ugh. Reading mid-IR1-phase traces is a pain. /-:
2015-07-10T01:14:04Z stassats: interestingly, without fixnum casts, substitute-single-use-lvar isn't called
2015-07-10T01:15:11Z stassats: and when there are casts, it gets called on a variable named X, which doesn't come from the code
2015-07-10T01:15:34Z nyef: It's probably from the inlined =.
2015-07-10T01:15:58Z nyef: ... Ugh.
2015-07-10T01:16:04Z nyef: And it's one of THOSE which can cause the damage.
2015-07-10T01:16:51Z stassats: got rid of (empty)
2015-07-10T01:16:56Z nyef: Oh?
2015-07-10T01:18:19Z stassats: nyef: http://paste.lisp.org/display/151256#2
2015-07-10T01:18:51Z nyef: Ooh.
2015-07-10T01:18:59Z stassats: got rid of block nil
2015-07-10T01:19:26Z nyef: I'm impressed.
2015-07-10T01:19:33Z stassats: http://paste.lisp.org/display/151256#3
2015-07-10T01:20:03Z nyef: Hrm.
2015-07-10T01:20:22Z nyef: Still looks like you need something for locall to chew on in order to get it to trigger, though?
2015-07-10T01:20:43Z stassats: yep
2015-07-10T01:21:15Z nyef: Only three calls to substitute-single-use-lvar, though.
2015-07-10T01:21:18Z nyef: Nice.
2015-07-10T01:24:21Z stassats: can make it to one call
2015-07-10T01:24:24Z nyef: Change the = to an EQ ?
2015-07-10T01:24:27Z stassats: yes
2015-07-10T01:24:38Z nyef: Just found that myself.
2015-07-10T01:25:29Z nyef: Going to get a before-and-after on the IR1.
2015-07-10T01:26:23Z nyef: http://paste.lisp.org/display/151256#4
2015-07-10T01:26:58Z nyef: That's it. It actually snaps it there.
2015-07-10T01:29:04Z stassats: can you point directly?
2015-07-10T01:29:48Z nyef: Compare IR1 block 10 start c24 and its successor CTRANs in both versions.
2015-07-10T01:30:08Z nyef: The before has a reference to A, the after has a CAST.
2015-07-10T01:30:58Z nyef: Hrm... I wonder...
2015-07-10T01:31:19Z stassats: that looks like what it's supposed to do
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2015-07-10T01:32:02Z nyef: Yeah, but then the CAST gets eliminated!
2015-07-10T01:32:12Z nyef: Which collapses the LVARs.
2015-07-10T01:32:35Z nyef: Now, what the heck was that trick that I had to add...?
2015-07-10T01:32:42Z stassats: safety 3?
2015-07-10T01:32:55Z nyef: No, for the MVL+NLX botch.
2015-07-10T01:33:01Z stassats: the cats is there, and it still loops
2015-07-10T01:33:14Z nyef: Hrm.
2015-07-10T01:35:11Z nyef: Still snaps the cast out at safety 3.
2015-07-10T01:37:12Z nyef: 8091ca7983625ed0c4becd91f16d707978e8817d 6503b2e697382e9902a7736f9d6a2102ef63dd17 c94738e3bb438daf7672bfb7907ba8fe8255c216
2015-07-10T01:38:11Z stassats: (eq z 1) if v47 c49 c50 49> 15: '4095  50>     set Z v15
2015-07-10T01:38:25Z stassats: so, why one is just 4095 and another sets?
2015-07-10T01:38:49Z nyef: Because v15 is the LVAR for A.
2015-07-10T01:38:59Z stassats: but why not set Z 4095?
2015-07-10T01:39:20Z nyef: Look again, it's a fall-through.
2015-07-10T01:39:34Z nyef: v15 is the LVAR for both A and the 4095.
2015-07-10T01:40:06Z stassats: that's what 15 in 49> 15: '4095 means?
2015-07-10T01:40:20Z nyef: Yup!
2015-07-10T01:40:30Z nyef: The "> 15" bit is the output LVAR.
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2015-07-10T01:41:14Z stassats: so that's where it overwrites
2015-07-10T01:41:18Z nyef: Yes.
2015-07-10T01:41:34Z nyef: Hrm. Just setting never-delete on the CAST doesn't work, probably because of the same optimization that keeps things relatively sane with the NLXes.
2015-07-10T01:42:04Z nyef: Oh, wait. What?
2015-07-10T01:42:16Z nyef: Why did that even COMPILE?
2015-07-10T01:42:56Z nyef: Okay, that shouldn't have even compiled. Time to reset my instance.
2015-07-10T01:43:49Z nyef: Yeah, can't piggy-back that. Damnit.
2015-07-10T01:44:31Z nyef: The CAST gets deleted because of type information. But must be preserved, because of lifetime information.
2015-07-10T01:44:51Z nyef: We could re-introduce NEVER-DELETE, I suppose...?
2015-07-10T01:46:52Z stassats: without the jump to zzz, substitute-single-use-lvar doesn't return T
2015-07-10T01:47:44Z nyef: Yeah. And the question becomes, "why not?"
2015-07-10T01:47:58Z nyef: Oh! Do we need the local function there?
2015-07-10T01:48:16Z nyef: Or can we just use a GO?
2015-07-10T01:48:22Z stassats: (eq (lvar-uses lvar) ref) is NIL
2015-07-10T01:48:36Z stassats: without GO
2015-07-10T01:48:43Z stassats: and T with
2015-07-10T01:49:27Z stassats: lvar-uses with go: #<REF :%SOURCE-NAME A :LEAF #<LAMBDA-VAR :%SOURCE-NAME A {1010117F13}> {101011BE13}>
2015-07-10T01:49:34Z stassats: without (#<REF :%SOURCE-NAME A :LEAF #<LAMBDA-VAR :%SOURCE-NAME A {1010173673}> {1010175E63}> #<REF  :LEAF #<CONSTANT :VALUE 4095 {1010175C13}> {1010175DA3}>)
2015-07-10T01:50:26Z nyef: Okay, that's odd...
2015-07-10T01:50:41Z nyef: ... so it no longer is a single-use LVAR?
2015-07-10T01:51:12Z stassats: how can a constant use it?
2015-07-10T01:51:22Z nyef: Because it's supplying a value.
2015-07-10T01:51:37Z nyef: The "use" is supplying a value to it. The DEST is consuming the value.
2015-07-10T01:51:54Z nyef: Dates back to when these were CONTINUATIONs.
2015-07-10T01:51:55Z stassats: so, 4095 is supplying a value for _a_?
2015-07-10T01:52:55Z nyef: No, the REF of A uses the LVAR and the 4096 uses the LVAR.
2015-07-10T01:53:09Z nyef: The LVAR DEST is the SET of Z.
2015-07-10T01:53:41Z nyef: The term "USE" really tends to confuse the issue, because it's the SOURCE of data for the LVAR, not where it ends up.
2015-07-10T01:54:08Z stassats: ok, so why does the noop go break them up?
2015-07-10T01:55:05Z stassats: lvar's dest is actually a CAST
2015-07-10T01:55:08Z nyef: Because the USES list is wrong at some point, and the GO delays the fixup just long enough for the transform to fire?
2015-07-10T01:56:59Z stassats: http://paste.lisp.org/display/151256#5
2015-07-10T01:57:33Z nyef: Yeah, it's a CAST there, but the cast gets snapped out because it's always true. The CAST's result LVAR goes to the SET.
2015-07-10T01:58:22Z stassats: ok, what happens to 4095 when it's not there then
2015-07-10T01:59:10Z stassats: lvar-uses of dest-lvar: (#<REF  :LEAF #<CONSTANT :VALUE 4095 {1005400AA3}> {1005400C33}>      #<CAST :%TYPE-CHECK NIL :VALUE #<LVAR 2 {1005400163}> :ASSERTED-TYPE #<NUMERIC-TYPE FIXNUM> :TYPE-TO-CHECK #<NAMED-TYPE *> :VESTIGIAL-EXIT-LEXENV NIL :VESTIGIAL-EXIT-ENTRY-LEXENV NIL {1005400DB3}>)
2015-07-10T02:01:06Z stassats: so it somehow jumps through
2015-07-10T02:01:30Z nyef: Hrm. We're in PROPAGAGE-LET-ARGS in IR1-OPTIMIZE-COMBINATION.
2015-07-10T02:01:44Z nyef: Err...
2015-07-10T02:01:51Z nyef: Damnit. PROPAGATE-LET-ARGS.
2015-07-10T02:02:52Z nyef: Oh.
2015-07-10T02:03:04Z nyef: Oh, for the...
2015-07-10T02:03:14Z stassats: is flet delaying some stage?
2015-07-10T02:03:18Z nyef: That CAST was the bloody clue!
2015-07-10T02:04:10Z stassats: propagate-let-args doesn't see through the cast?
2015-07-10T02:04:22Z nyef: http://paste.lisp.org/display/151256#6
2015-07-10T02:04:23Z nyef: Yeah.
2015-07-10T02:04:33Z nyef: And the CAST gets snapped out afterwards.
2015-07-10T02:04:46Z nyef: Okay.
2015-07-10T02:04:54Z nyef: NOW we have something that we can fix.
2015-07-10T02:05:18Z stassats: i lost the thread
2015-07-10T02:06:08Z nyef: CASTS can get snapped out.
2015-07-10T02:06:49Z nyef: SUBSTITUTE-SINGLE-USE-LVAR checks to see if the DEST is a CAST, but doesn't check to see if the CAST's RESULT-LVAR is *ALSO* single-use.
2015-07-10T02:07:11Z nyef: If it's not, and the CAST gets snapped out, *boom*.
2015-07-10T02:07:38Z stassats: where does (ret) come in?
2015-07-10T02:09:32Z nyef: Either it advances or retards some optimization step, where something happens with the CAST.
2015-07-10T02:10:23Z nyef: Because without the extra control-flow, both branches of the IF produce USES for the same LVAR, with the DEST at the CAST.
2015-07-10T02:14:13Z stassats: CASTS. CASTS ARE NICE
2015-07-10T02:14:32Z stassats: minion: chant
2015-07-10T02:14:32Z minion: MORE LIKE CONTINUATIONS
2015-07-10T02:19:46Z gabriel_laddel joined #sbcl
2015-07-10T02:22:52Z nyef: http://paste.lisp.org/display/151256#7
2015-07-10T02:23:35Z stassats: atom?
2015-07-10T02:24:16Z les quit (Quit: "")
2015-07-10T02:24:28Z les joined #sbcl
2015-07-10T02:24:30Z nyef: No, because I'm specifically denying that it's a list with at least one CONS.
2015-07-10T02:24:49Z stassats: which is the definition of the atom
2015-07-10T02:25:19Z nyef: Yes, but I'm not checking to see "is this an atom", I'm checking to make sure that it's not a list.
2015-07-10T02:25:33Z nyef: They're the same result, but a different semantic to the reader.
2015-07-10T02:26:00Z stassats: seems the same, atom is the opposite of the cons, so you want an atom there
2015-07-10T02:26:54Z nyef: I'm looking for the ABSENCE of a particular type of value, and wish to emphasize it, thus the use of negative logic.
2015-07-10T02:26:55Z stassats: i don't see how else to interpret ATOM
2015-07-10T02:27:42Z stassats: so, (lvar-single-value-p pprev) should be (not (lvar-multiple-value-p pprev))?
2015-07-10T02:28:28Z nyef: Okay, whatever.
2015-07-10T02:28:42Z nyef: Do you want to do the honors?
2015-07-10T02:29:01Z stassats: if it's the same meaning, i choose the shortest one
2015-07-10T02:29:15Z stassats: nyef: well, you discovered it, you should commit
2015-07-10T02:29:19Z stassats: unless you don't have time
2015-07-10T02:29:24Z nyef: I have the time.
2015-07-10T02:29:45Z nyef: Let me just make sure it still works with the last change.
2015-07-10T02:29:59Z nyef kicks off a full build.
2015-07-10T02:32:30Z nyef: Looks like the extra flow control allows IR1-OPTIMIZE-CAST to get first crack at things before the LET combination gets optimized.
2015-07-10T02:33:09Z nyef: Uh-oh.
2015-07-10T02:33:31Z nyef: NIL is not of type SB!C::LVAR.
2015-07-10T02:33:38Z nyef: Compiling code/numbers.
2015-07-10T02:33:46Z stassats: dest-lvar is null?
2015-07-10T02:34:02Z nyef: Wouldn't surprise me at this point.
2015-07-10T02:34:08Z stassats: (dest-lvar (when (valued-node-p dest) (node-lvar dest)))
2015-07-10T02:34:23Z nyef: Good thing I did a full build. (-:
2015-07-10T02:34:42Z stassats: i usually do a full build and full test run
2015-07-10T02:34:50Z stassats: plus some other things to load
2015-07-10T02:35:01Z nyef: It varies a bit for me.
2015-07-10T02:36:27Z stassats: while you're at it, you can change multiple-value-bind for principal-lvar-end to nth-value 1
2015-07-10T02:36:34Z nyef: We're still in PROPAGATE-LET-ARGS in IR1-OPTIMIZE-COMBINATION, so this is probably just feeding into dead code if we have a CAST with no DEST? Or is it a CHECK-TYPE?
2015-07-10T02:36:53Z nyef: You can do it when I'm done. d-:
2015-07-10T02:37:15Z stassats: or leave it be, it's dense as it is, pprev is descriptive
2015-07-10T02:37:23Z nyef: Yup.
2015-07-10T02:38:02Z stassats: i encountered a null dest-lvar when i tried to print things off of it
2015-07-10T02:38:36Z stassats: compiling substitute-single-use-lvar itself, e.g.
2015-07-10T02:40:16Z stassats: but that's due to valued-node-p being false, CAST is a value node
2015-07-10T02:40:25Z stassats: so node-lvar has to be null
2015-07-10T02:42:14Z stassats: and NODE-lvar isn't defined in NODE, but in valued-node, lovely
2015-07-10T02:42:44Z stassats: "May be NIL if the value is unused."
2015-07-10T02:46:19Z nyef: Do you do much with the CLOS internals?
2015-07-10T02:46:34Z stassats: not if i can help it
2015-07-10T02:46:37Z nyef: Heh.
2015-07-10T02:46:39Z nyef: Fair enough.
2015-07-10T02:47:06Z nyef: I'm still amazingly inexperienced with even *using* CLOS.
2015-07-10T02:47:15Z stassats: are you talking about invalid wrappers?
2015-07-10T02:47:29Z nyef: I'm thinking about the invalid wrappers, but also more generally.
2015-07-10T02:47:53Z nyef: There are a few bugs in the tracker that involve PCL.
2015-07-10T02:48:08Z stassats: i had some thoughts on invalid wrappers and concurrent access, but i don't know what the bug above was an instance of
2015-07-10T02:49:33Z nyef: Yeah, and I get the distinct impression that it's actually completely deterministic, and only requires a single thread to set up, but might involve something weird in terms of loading fasls or cfasls or something.
2015-07-10T02:49:56Z nyef: Running the test suite.
2015-07-10T02:51:04Z stassats: i think remember something without concurrent access as well
2015-07-10T02:51:11Z psy_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2015-07-10T02:51:12Z nyef: Yeah, there's one about that as well.
2015-07-10T02:51:19Z nyef: In the high-importance section.
2015-07-10T02:53:21Z psy_ joined #sbcl
2015-07-10T02:54:05Z nyef: Oh, lovely. More flawed escape analysis.
2015-07-10T02:54:14Z stassats: where?
2015-07-10T02:54:24Z nyef: lp 1023713
2015-07-10T02:54:24Z specbot: https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1023713
2015-07-10T02:54:28Z nyef: Not dealing with it tonight.
2015-07-10T02:54:38Z stassats: that's an old one
2015-07-10T02:54:46Z nyef: But I'd been looking at it earlier, and it just struck me that it's an escape analysis problem.
2015-07-10T02:55:20Z stassats: marked as medium
2015-07-10T02:55:41Z stassats: but what about https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/308918
2015-07-10T02:55:53Z nyef: Meh. If you want old-ones, Shub-Niggurath is probably lurking in either the front-end of the compiler or in the PCL code...
2015-07-10T02:56:14Z nyef: Also one I was looking at.
2015-07-10T02:57:06Z stassats: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1390149 is mine
2015-07-10T02:57:11Z nyef: ... Same problem, actually. Escape analysis.
2015-07-10T02:57:17Z stassats: i'm just too lazy to finish it
2015-07-10T02:57:33Z nyef: Oh?
2015-07-10T02:57:58Z stassats: assigned myself
2015-07-10T02:59:06Z stassats digs through git stash
2015-07-10T02:59:13Z stassats: found a partial solution
2015-07-10T03:00:19Z stassats: this one is about not enough lvar substitution
2015-07-10T03:00:22Z pkhuong: the front end is surprisingly OK, imo.
2015-07-10T03:01:08Z stassats: the logior vop sees the EQL type and uses the constant, leaving the allocated variable hanging
2015-07-10T03:01:36Z stassats: i have some code that propagates eql types as constants, but it needs to handle some more cases
2015-07-10T03:01:42Z stassats: and to see through casts
2015-07-10T03:01:52Z pkhuong: I made a conscious decision not to do that
2015-07-10T03:02:02Z pkhuong: because it can easily cause performance regressions
2015-07-10T03:02:16Z stassats: casts?
2015-07-10T03:02:20Z pkhuong: when you keep rematerialising a constant instead of using a variable
2015-07-10T03:02:38Z stassats: otherwise it doesn't work
2015-07-10T03:02:44Z nyef: Okay, how do we even describe this thing with the CAST?
2015-07-10T03:03:09Z pkhuong: not the cast part, the EQL/singleton propagation
2015-07-10T03:03:44Z nyef: (Referring to the fix for 1446891 here.)
2015-07-10T03:03:52Z stassats: either it should be propagated, or we should stop seeing eql types as constants then
2015-07-10T03:03:56Z nyef: Trying to write the NEWS entry.
2015-07-10T03:04:21Z stassats: pkhuong: but why would it cause a regression compared to normal constants?
2015-07-10T03:04:34Z pkhuong: it would cause a perf regression compared to not detecting the constantness
2015-07-10T03:05:15Z pkhuong: and just using the value that's already in a register
2015-07-10T03:06:46Z stassats: but this is a degenarate case, i don't expect high performance code to have eql typed variables
2015-07-10T03:07:31Z pkhuong: you get EQL typed via constraint propagation
2015-07-10T03:07:35Z stassats: but even without eql typed, we could recognized as variables having particular values and don't use constants
2015-07-10T03:08:56Z stassats: like in (and x t), it doesn't need to load NIL
2015-07-10T03:10:44Z pkhuong: so, for boxed values it's not much of a problem
2015-07-10T03:11:14Z pkhuong: I was more worried about floats and fixnums/word-sized ints to a lesser extent
2015-07-10T03:11:35Z pkhuong: but that's less of an issue now that we're smarter about boxing float constants
2015-07-10T03:12:35Z stassats: stopping vops from seeing (eql t) as constants is of course the easiest fix
2015-07-10T03:13:24Z stassats: i should have just done that some time ago, correctness > performance
2015-07-10T03:15:47Z stassats: and leave eql propagation for when we have "variable propagation"
2015-07-10T03:16:13Z nyef: Okay, feedback request time!
2015-07-10T03:16:16Z nyef: http://paste.lisp.org/display/151256#8
2015-07-10T03:16:59Z stassats: maybe the news bit should be more high-level?
2015-07-10T03:17:19Z nyef: Having a hard enough time coming up with that.
2015-07-10T03:17:31Z stassats: that's fit for the commit message
2015-07-10T03:17:36Z pkhuong: how does it manifest in user code?
2015-07-10T03:17:36Z nyef: How would you describe what's going on at a higher level?
2015-07-10T03:18:15Z nyef: pkhuong: a variable effectively gets overwritten.
2015-07-10T03:18:16Z stassats: variables being boo-boo
2015-07-10T03:18:19Z pkhuong: you'd need to use a conditional
2015-07-10T03:19:10Z stassats: "prevent multiple live variables occupying the same space"
2015-07-10T03:19:18Z stassats: "prevent multiple live variables occupying the same location"
2015-07-10T03:19:49Z pkhuong: more conservative when eliminating variables that are bound to conditional or otherwise non-straight-line expressions?
2015-07-10T03:19:56Z pkhuong: iiuc
2015-07-10T03:21:07Z pkhuong: btw, re the atom bikeshed: list-of-length-at-most-p ? ;)
2015-07-10T03:21:11Z stassats: "prevent multiple live variables occupying the same location in some circumstances"
2015-07-10T03:23:26Z stassats: there's lvar-has-single-use-p
2015-07-10T03:23:37Z stassats: but that's not exactly the same
2015-07-10T03:24:19Z pkhuong: lvar-has-single-use-p returns NIL or 0 length
2015-07-10T03:24:24Z pkhuong: *on 0 length
2015-07-10T03:24:44Z pkhuong: meh. list of length would barf on the non-list value
2015-07-10T03:24:56Z pkhuong: stupid micro-optimisation.
2015-07-10T03:25:18Z stassats: atom seems perfect to me anyway, short, to the point
2015-07-10T03:25:48Z stassats: all the stuff is made of them, what's not to like?
2015-07-10T03:28:14Z nyef: "Variable-reference elimination no longer generates incorrect code under certain circumstances"?
2015-07-10T03:32:36Z pkhuong: yeah. interested parties can click on the launchpad link ;)
2015-07-10T03:32:56Z stassats: "shit's fixed, yo"
2015-07-10T03:33:11Z nyef: Okay, I'll run with that, then. Thank you.
2015-07-10T03:38:58Z nyef: Two down in as many days. (-:
2015-07-10T03:39:41Z stassats: what about a test case?
2015-07-10T03:41:28Z dustinm` joined #sbcl
2015-07-10T03:41:47Z nyef: I don't believe that I'm up to it this time. Feel free.
2015-07-10T03:41:56Z stassats: ok
2015-07-10T03:43:10Z nyef: Eesh. Yet another escape analysis one. This one from 2011.
2015-07-10T03:43:20Z nyef: (772039 in this case.)
2015-07-10T03:43:39Z stassats: clhs 772039
2015-07-10T03:43:39Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for 772039.
2015-07-10T03:43:41Z stassats: lp 772039
2015-07-10T03:43:42Z specbot: https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/772039
2015-07-10T03:50:11Z nyef: clhs dotimes
2015-07-10T03:50:11Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_dotime.htm
2015-07-10T03:53:17Z stassats: shouldn't (let ((x (list 1 2))) (declare (dynamic-extent x)) x) warn too?
2015-07-10T03:54:57Z stassats: or even decline to dx
2015-07-10T04:00:33Z nyef: Probably, yes.
2015-07-10T04:00:38Z nyef: Actually, both.
2015-07-10T04:04:35Z nyef: There's an awful lot of new feature requests in here, fortunately mostly ranked as "wishlist".
2015-07-10T04:11:00Z nyef: The compiler doesn't have a proper-list-of-length-p TYPE, does it?
2015-07-10T04:11:31Z nyef: Or even a list-of-known-length type?
2015-07-10T04:22:55Z selat quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
2015-07-10T04:26:28Z stassats: oops, failed AVER: (NOT (CTRAN-NEXT CTRAN))
2015-07-10T04:33:33Z nyef: Uh-oh. Yours or mine?
2015-07-10T04:33:40Z nyef: Or someone else's?
2015-07-10T04:33:42Z stassats: old
2015-07-10T04:33:45Z nyef: Oh, good.
2015-07-10T04:33:52Z stassats: i think
2015-07-10T04:33:54Z nyef: Well, not good.
2015-07-10T04:34:39Z stassats: cmucl old
2015-07-10T04:35:04Z nyef: Well, good, not our fault, but bad, it's still there.
2015-07-10T04:35:16Z nyef: Is it in the tracker?
2015-07-10T04:35:24Z stassats: nope
2015-07-10T04:41:11Z nyef: Ooh. Here's a possible easy win...
2015-07-10T04:41:16Z nyef: lp 309083
2015-07-10T04:41:16Z specbot: https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/309083
2015-07-10T04:41:34Z nyef: That far, far pre-dates the MAP-ALLOCATED-OBJECTS rewrite.
2015-07-10T04:50:28Z stassats: have a fix for (NOT (CTRAN-NEXT CTRAN)), but it's a part of a bigger issue, so not committing it yet
2015-07-10T04:54:25Z stassats: solving https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/309123
2015-07-10T04:57:22Z stassats: the order of things in lexenv is squashed
2015-07-10T05:03:34Z stassats: i can't tell wether symbol-macrolet comes before or after a macrolet
2015-07-10T05:07:09Z stassats: i can recover the order through sb-c::*source-paths*
2015-07-10T05:07:12Z stassats: but that sounds a bit silly
2015-07-10T05:10:42Z stassats: and which only available for compile-file
2015-07-10T05:11:39Z stassats: so i would have to change the way lexenv works
2015-07-10T05:12:23Z stassats: maybe if it linked to the previous lexenv
2015-07-10T05:14:30Z stassats: i like ; XXX comment
2015-07-10T05:14:42Z stassats: ok, "XXX", gotcha
2015-07-10T05:15:10Z nyef: Well, I'm going to wish you luck. It's quarter past one here, and I need to work in the morning.
2015-07-10T05:15:58Z nyef: Thanks for your help with that substitute-single-use-lvar bug. (-:
2015-07-10T05:16:08Z stassats: i don't think i'm ready to overhaul lexenvs just yet
2015-07-10T05:17:51Z stassats: or maybe i can have some counter with each lexenv entry
2015-07-10T05:19:46Z stassats: that doesn't encompass scope
2015-07-10T05:19:52Z stassats: so i do need to link to the previous lexenv
2015-07-10T05:20:30Z stassats: which normally goes through lexenv-lambda, but here it's without lambda
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2015-07-10T19:39:29Z stassats: quite a few high importance bugs fixed in the last couple of days
2015-07-10T19:39:31Z stassats: which is nice
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2015-07-10T19:40:06Z nyef: Do you want to see if we can get another one or two tonight?
2015-07-10T19:41:00Z stassats: what do you have in mind?
2015-07-10T19:41:09Z nyef: Actually, I'm not sure we CAN.
2015-07-10T19:41:16Z nyef: Just taking a quick look now.
2015-07-10T19:41:36Z stassats: i have an angle on 309123, but it doesn't need investigating, just writing code, which is boring
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2015-07-10T19:43:20Z stassats: i need to crack down 1186238
2015-07-10T19:43:21Z stassats: lp 1186238
2015-07-10T19:43:22Z specbot: https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1186238
2015-07-10T19:43:27Z stassats: pretty annoying when it happens
2015-07-10T19:43:37Z stassats: should be easy
2015-07-10T19:43:42Z nyef: Mmm.
2015-07-10T19:44:14Z nyef: For the HIGH-importance bugs, I see some platform-specific noise, a couple of feature requests...
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2015-07-10T19:44:44Z nyef: Some thread-safety problems...
2015-07-10T19:45:04Z nyef: Some stuff that I'm willing to argue Are Not Bugs...
2015-07-10T19:45:13Z |3b|: for the inline recursion one, would it be hard to track stack used in addition to recursion depth for a limit?
2015-07-10T19:45:33Z |3b|: though i guess that still doesn't stop it from breaking if there wasn't much stack left
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2015-07-10T19:46:55Z nyef: Yeah, I've got nothing on that inline-expansion one.
2015-07-10T19:48:24Z stassats: what about DX escapes?
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2015-07-10T19:48:48Z nyef: That'd be nice, but I don't think I'm up for it tonight.
2015-07-10T19:49:11Z stassats: i have an angle on 484143, but it just requires rewriting code, lots of code
2015-07-10T19:50:22Z nyef: Oh?
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2015-07-10T19:51:58Z stassats: we have stack protection pages, the problem is that the stack grows downwards, so when we allocate on stack we start from the top of the stack and go down, which is a problem with large allocation, it starts beyond the stack
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2015-07-10T19:52:15Z stassats: all the stack allocation routines need to be changed to initialize in the natural order
2015-07-10T19:52:19Z stassats: of the stack
2015-07-10T19:52:31Z stassats: then it will eventually heat the guard pages
2015-07-10T19:52:35Z stassats: or hit
2015-07-10T19:52:40Z nyef: The x86oid stack grows downwards. Most other backends, the stack grows upwards.
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2015-07-10T19:53:27Z nyef: No, what you're looking at is needing to have stack allocation try to write to each page in an allocation.
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2015-07-10T19:53:52Z nyef: In some cases, yes, natural initialization is sufficient for this.
2015-07-10T19:54:18Z stassats: it's sufficient for all cases, we either initialize it right away or fill with zeros
2015-07-10T19:55:09Z stassats: but there is a number of VOPs to be changed
2015-07-10T19:55:12Z nyef: Okay, that's fair.
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2015-07-10T19:55:46Z stassats: i guess i should just start vop by vop
2015-07-10T19:56:01Z stassats: but now back to defconstant, the obvious solution obviously blows up in the cold init
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2015-07-10T19:56:55Z nyef: ... Are the package locks enabled at that point?
2015-07-10T19:57:14Z nyef: TLF processing, right?
2015-07-10T19:57:20Z stassats: defvar somehow does it, but %defvar is #-sb-xc-hosted
2015-07-10T19:58:03Z stassats: ok, how on earth does that work
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2015-07-10T19:58:14Z stassats: or is there just no defvars so soon?
2015-07-10T19:58:45Z stassats reluctantly goes to enable sb-show
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2015-07-10T19:59:53Z nyef: Okay, it's been a year and half a month. What do we want to do with lp#659173 (which is on the high-importance list)?
2015-07-10T20:00:02Z stassats: lp 659173
2015-07-10T20:00:02Z specbot: https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/659173
2015-07-10T20:00:16Z stassats: how about fixing it?
2015-07-10T20:00:37Z nyef: My argument is that it's not broken.
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2015-07-10T20:01:53Z pkhuong: could warn
2015-07-10T20:02:06Z nyef: How?
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2015-07-10T20:03:13Z stassats: (sb-impl::%fun-type (lambda (x) (list x))) => (FUNCTION (T) (VALUES CONS &OPTIONAL))
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2015-07-10T20:05:32Z stassats: so, there's a defconstant in the first file
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2015-07-10T20:06:47Z stassats: but declaim special is pretty early too
2015-07-10T20:07:13Z nyef: So, what's the compatibility between (function (integer) (values (mod 32))) and (function ((or integer list)) (values t)), in both directions?
2015-07-10T20:07:54Z stassats: (declaim (ftype (function (t) (values string)) quux)) (defun quux () 10)
2015-07-10T20:08:03Z stassats: ; caught STYLE-WARNING: ;   The result type from proclamation: ;     (VALUES STRING &REST T) ;   conflicts with the definition's result type: ;     (VALUES (INTEGER 10 10) &OPTIONAL)
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2015-07-10T20:08:58Z pkhuong: derived return type must intersect with the declared
2015-07-10T20:09:29Z pkhuong: same for arg types
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2015-07-10T20:10:57Z nyef: Hrm.
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2015-07-10T20:13:08Z nyef: Okay, so I have a (function (t) (values t &optional)).
2015-07-10T20:13:32Z nyef: And I have a declaimed ftype for, say FOO.
2015-07-10T20:14:02Z nyef: Say, (function (integer) (values (mod 32))).
2015-07-10T20:14:08Z nyef: Should I get a warning or not?
2015-07-10T20:14:52Z stassats: you shouldn't
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2015-07-10T20:15:24Z stassats: see SB-C::TRY-TYPE-INTERSECTIONS
2015-07-10T20:15:39Z nyef: Okay, but I actually have TWO such functions, and one of them would compile just fine as FOO, but the other causes a warning about a derived type conflicting with an asserted type.
2015-07-10T20:16:08Z stassats: it should just do whatever it currently does for defun
2015-07-10T20:16:38Z nyef: But it can't: DEFUN has visibility into the function, the type propagation machinery has its say.
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2015-07-10T20:16:55Z nyef: If you have a function object in hand, the compiler has already had its say.
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2015-07-10T20:17:30Z stassats: and?
2015-07-10T20:18:14Z nyef: And we're right back to "(setf fdefinition) and (setf symbol-function) are type-unsafe".
2015-07-10T20:18:52Z stassats: you have the type of the function, you have the declration, what else is needed?
2015-07-10T20:18:54Z nyef: I suppose it's a marginal improvement, but that's all it is.
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2015-07-10T20:22:35Z stassats: i don't get how declaim special works, but my %defconstant doesn't
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2015-07-10T20:26:41Z stassats: how is %defconstant used before the defconstant file loaded?
2015-07-10T20:27:20Z stassats: so functions are resolved in genesis? but why not the package stuff
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2015-07-10T20:28:05Z nyef: Because package objects are fairly complex structures, thus not easy to explain to genesis?
2015-07-10T20:28:17Z stassats: well, it's even more complicated
2015-07-10T20:28:37Z stassats: i've been looking at the wrong thing, there's no macro, not function for packages
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2015-07-10T20:30:03Z dougk_: stassats: if you're implementing package locks checks on defconstant, you're probably going to need a cold-init version of the guts of defconstant, as 'quietly-defsetf' is to 'defsetf'
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2015-07-10T20:30:19Z stassats: dougk_: proclaim already works
2015-07-10T20:30:45Z dougk_: only because there's a deferred proclamation mechanism
2015-07-10T20:30:58Z dougk_: it doesn't actually do anything with proclaims until it's ready to handle them all
2015-07-10T20:31:51Z stassats: then what does the fact that it works now for defconstant mean?
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2015-07-10T20:32:23Z stassats: it was a build problem, not a cold-init problem
2015-07-10T20:32:37Z dougk_: oh, so it's all working?
2015-07-10T20:33:12Z stassats: yep
2015-07-10T20:34:19Z nyef: Hrm. (or (function ((integer)) (values (mod 32) &optional)) (function ((list)) (values t &optional))) is a function type, isn't it?
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2015-07-10T20:35:17Z nyef: Hrm.
2015-07-10T20:35:19Z nyef: Oh.
2015-07-10T20:35:22Z nyef: Too many parens.
2015-07-10T20:35:23Z stassats: (list) not ((list)) though
2015-07-10T20:35:29Z nyef: Yeah, just found that.
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2015-07-10T20:36:49Z nyef: ... It's subtypep function, and function is subtypep it?
2015-07-10T20:37:06Z nyef: T,T both ways around.
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2015-07-10T20:37:37Z stassats: the union us function t t? but that locks the number of arguments still
2015-07-10T20:38:31Z stassats: (sb-c::specifier-type '(or (function ((integer)) (values (mod 32) &optional)) (function (list) (values t &optional)))) => #<SB-KERNEL:BUILT-IN-CLASSOID FUNCTION (read-only)>
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2015-07-10T20:38:41Z nyef: Yeah, just got that far.
2015-07-10T20:38:45Z nyef: That's a bit bogus, isn't it?
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2015-07-10T20:43:44Z stassats: defconstant package locks are in
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2015-07-10T20:44:03Z stassats: lp 1036716
2015-07-10T20:44:03Z specbot: https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1036716
2015-07-10T20:44:26Z nyef: ";;; The union or intersection of two FUNCTION types is FUNCTION."
2015-07-10T20:45:03Z stassats: (sb-c::specifier-type '(or (function ((integer)) (values (mod 32) &optional)) (function (integer) (values fixnum &optional)))) => #<SB-KERNEL:FUN-TYPE (FUNCTION (INTEGER) (VALUES FIXNUM &OPTIONAL))>
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2015-07-10T20:46:04Z nyef: I have to wonder how much of this is due to the CL spec and how much of it is just avoiding thinking about the issue.
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2015-07-10T20:46:14Z stassats: '(or (function (integer) (values (mod 32) &optional)) (function (fixnum) (values fixnum &optional))) => FUNCTION
2015-07-10T20:46:21Z stassats: (or (function (fixnum) (values (mod 32) &optional)) (function (integer) (values fixnum &optional))) => (FUNCTION (INTEGER) (VALUES FIXNUM &OPTIONAL))
2015-07-10T20:46:25Z stassats: huh?
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2015-07-10T20:49:48Z nyef: fixnum is a subtype of integer, and (mod 32) is a subtype of fixnum?
2015-07-10T20:50:18Z stassats: no, switching fixnum and integer around gives different result
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2015-07-10T20:51:20Z nyef: Yes, because in one case both argument and result types on one side are subtypes of the other side.
2015-07-10T20:51:27Z nyef: So it can "just" choose the most specific.
2015-07-10T20:51:40Z nyef: In the other case, they're not, so it widens to FUNCTION.
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2015-07-10T20:54:56Z jsnell_: that's the implementation reasoning. but I don't see why it'd be invalid to return latter result also for the first call
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2015-07-10T20:58:28Z nyef: Hence my wondering if this is mandated by CLHS, or if it's just nobody having taken the time to sort all this out.
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2015-07-10T21:36:33Z stassats: got a fix for defstruct package locks, waiting for tests
2015-07-10T21:38:01Z stassats: lp 310221
2015-07-10T21:38:01Z specbot: https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/310221
2015-07-10T21:38:06Z stassats: nyef: what about this?
2015-07-10T21:38:35Z nyef: It's being kept for the comment. /-:
2015-07-10T21:38:55Z stassats: can be closed?
2015-07-10T21:39:01Z stassats: it won't go away
2015-07-10T21:39:12Z stassats: open a wishlist item for the comment
2015-07-10T21:39:23Z nyef: That works for me.
2015-07-10T21:39:40Z nyef: Well, works for me if someone else creates the wishlist item.
2015-07-10T21:40:10Z stassats: le me try
2015-07-10T21:41:12Z stassats: have no idea how to title it properly
2015-07-10T21:41:50Z nyef: Well, it's a memory-usage debugging aid of some sort, isn't it?
2015-07-10T21:42:11Z stassats: lp 1473561
2015-07-10T21:42:12Z specbot: https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1473561
2015-07-10T21:42:35Z stassats: now you can close the original
2015-07-10T21:43:16Z nyef: Okay, thanks.
2015-07-10T21:44:26Z stassats: three bugs for today sounds enough
2015-07-10T21:44:36Z stassats: unless you have something interesting
2015-07-10T21:44:53Z nyef: Done.
2015-07-10T21:45:08Z stassats: interesting and not off-putting
2015-07-10T21:45:13Z nyef: Nothing at this point.
2015-07-10T21:45:20Z stassats: i have thing i just don't want to touch
2015-07-10T21:45:41Z stassats: like consing inside without-gcing on sb-safepoint
2015-07-10T21:46:14Z stassats: should really get fixed, but i really don't want to touch safepoint code
2015-07-10T21:48:01Z stassats: of course a test fails, sigh
2015-07-10T21:48:45Z nyef: Oh, hey, how about 309083 ?
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2015-07-10T21:49:17Z stassats: lp 309083
2015-07-10T21:49:17Z specbot: https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/309083
2015-07-10T22:13:59Z stassats: ok, finally done with defstruct
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2015-07-11T15:08:44Z dougk2_: anyone have an idea how to portably suppress the 'optional + key' warnings when self-compiling deftransform? you can't #+sbcl(declare(muffle-conditions)) because use of #+ is considered an error by the extra-magical shebang thing as a preventative measure
2015-07-11T15:10:05Z stassats: (declare (declaration muffle-conditions))
2015-07-11T15:10:42Z dougk2_: yah, that's a good idea.
2015-07-11T15:11:04Z stassats: but, you'll have a trouble with naming the condition itself
2015-07-11T15:11:44Z dougk2_: argh. right
2015-07-11T15:12:06Z stassats: and the package for muffle-conditions
2015-07-11T15:14:59Z stassats: hacky hack: (defvar *declare* (and (find-package "SB-EXT") `(declare ,(find-symbol "MUFFLE-CONDITIONS" "SB-EXT"))))
2015-07-11T15:15:04Z stassats: #.*declare*
2015-07-11T15:15:30Z nyef: Why bother with the defvar?
2015-07-11T15:15:43Z stassats: doing it more than once?
2015-07-11T15:16:18Z nyef: Oh, going that way round. Yeah, sure.
2015-07-11T15:16:59Z stassats: or just choose to ignore them
2015-07-11T15:48:41Z stassats: looking at SB-PCL::INVOKE-EMF, not sure what's the point of restp
2015-07-11T15:49:31Z stassats: keeping the arguments in registers? that'd be four registers for the 2-arg call
2015-07-11T15:49:51Z stassats: some backends have 4 register args, sure
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2015-07-11T18:49:20Z stassats: finally used sb-unicode normalization functions for something
2015-07-11T18:49:34Z stassats: time for another round of optimizations for that
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2015-07-11T19:20:06Z stassats: i really want to break sb-unicode:normalize-string interface
2015-07-11T19:20:11Z stassats: it has &optional, i want &key
2015-07-11T19:20:12Z stassats: sigh
2015-07-11T19:21:07Z nyef: &optional &key &for-petes-sake?
2015-07-11T19:21:39Z stassats: &nothanks
2015-07-11T19:22:32Z stassats: i just added a second optional "filter", but i'd also like to see :start and :end
2015-07-11T19:22:50Z |3b|: does sbcl ffi support passing structs to/from functions? (just curious, since i'll probably stay with cffi either way)
2015-07-11T19:23:06Z stassats: don't think so
2015-07-11T19:23:44Z stassats: i see (normalize-string (subseq )) being used by sbcl itself
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2015-07-12T10:21:19Z francogrex: Hi where did the compiler notes in my sbcl go? http://paste.lisp.org/display/151436
2015-07-12T10:21:50Z stassats: which notes?
2015-07-12T10:22:18Z stassats: protip: (floor (sqrt n)) => (isqrt n)
2015-07-12T10:22:43Z francogrex: |3b| yesterday had notes (I used to have as well) like doing xxx to xxx coercion (cost 13) ...
2015-07-12T10:23:09Z francogrex: ok isqrt
2015-07-12T10:23:17Z stassats: i'll be giving you notes
2015-07-12T10:23:20Z stassats: you have too much return-from
2015-07-12T10:23:27Z stassats: camel cased variable name
2015-07-12T10:23:28Z stassats: s
2015-07-12T10:24:00Z stassats: " for n :of-type INTEGER from 0 to limit" while limit is a fixnum
2015-07-12T10:24:29Z francogrex: :of-type INTEGER is useless here?
2015-07-12T10:24:37Z stassats: returning (vector limit noPrimes)? did you mean values?
2015-07-12T10:24:41Z stassats: francogrex: yes
2015-07-12T10:24:52Z francogrex: values yes
2015-07-12T10:27:23Z francogrex: but if you compile the file wouldn't you get more notes than what I just got (showed in my post)?
2015-07-12T10:28:00Z stassats: http://paste.lisp.org/display/151436#1
2015-07-12T10:28:00Z francogrex: something is not "turned on" by default on my system it seems
2015-07-12T10:30:26Z francogrex: does it help to also declare is-prime as inlined?
2015-07-12T10:30:44Z stassats: http://paste.lisp.org/display/151436#2
2015-07-12T10:30:53Z stassats: and of course you set your bloody paste to expire
2015-07-12T10:31:54Z francogrex: hey I care about the environment; no pollution with my pastes
2015-07-12T10:32:15Z stassats: yours, yes, but now my nice versions will go away
2015-07-12T10:32:30Z francogrex: lol, we'll keep it
2015-07-12T10:37:45Z stassats: correction: http://paste.lisp.org/display/151436#3
2015-07-12T10:39:15Z francogrex: ok
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2015-07-13T01:11:36Z stassats: SQRT appears to be much faster than ISQRT, should we just use it for small values?
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2015-07-13T01:43:57Z loke: hello stassats
2015-07-13T01:43:57Z minion: loke, memo from jackdaniel: I've fixed %invoke in both cffi and iolib and made pull requests to maintainers - it may take a while tough before they'll wrap new release, so I'd use git versions in local-projects for time being. cl-rabbit loads here fine now
2015-07-13T01:43:57Z minion: loke, memo from jackdaniel: if it's not merged yet in github, check pull requests tab
2015-07-13T01:44:36Z loke: minion memo to jackdaniel Thanks a lot for your help!
2015-07-13T01:44:54Z loke: minion: memo to jackdaniel Thanks a lot for your help!
2015-07-13T01:44:55Z minion: watch out, you'll make krystof angry
2015-07-13T01:45:44Z loke: minion: memo for jackdaniel: Thanks a lot for your help!
2015-07-13T01:45:44Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell jackdaniel when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-07-13T02:34:53Z akkad: what would keep sb-posix from being built?
2015-07-13T02:35:01Z akkad: Don't know how to REQUIRE SB-POSIX.
2015-07-13T02:35:44Z stassats: you need to ask that when it's being built
2015-07-13T02:39:46Z akkad: k
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2015-07-13T04:08:49Z loke: akkad: you might have to compile with --fancy?
2015-07-13T04:09:23Z nyef: Shouldn't need --fancy for contribs.
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2015-07-13T15:41:30Z nyef: I just got a failed AVER: (NOT (SB-C::CTRAN-NEXT SB-C::CTRAN)) on 1.2.10, linux, x86-64. At work and on a deadline, unfortunately, so I'm going to have to defer further digging for a bit.
2015-07-13T15:42:29Z nyef: There's an error leading up to it, too, so that almost certainly plays into it.
2015-07-13T15:42:52Z stassats: i can give you a test case with the same aver
2015-07-13T15:43:27Z stassats: http://paste.lisp.org/display/151539
2015-07-13T15:44:03Z stassats: i have a fix for that one, but i'm planning on overhauling the whole environment-capturing-for-inlining thing
2015-07-13T15:44:19Z stassats: because it's broken approximately completely
2015-07-13T15:45:50Z nyef: Odd, but I don't think that's what I'm seeing. I could be wrong, though.
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2015-07-13T15:46:56Z stassats: here the problem is that it saves the declaration as (special x) not (declare (special x))
2015-07-13T15:47:05Z stassats: a bit of a strange failure mode for that
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2015-07-13T15:51:11Z nyef: Okay, new trick: Make a toplevel MACROLET return a quoted expression, then wrap the invocation with a WITH-OPEN-FILE PRINT.
2015-07-13T15:54:30Z nyef: Oh, cute. It only happens in COMPILE-FILE, not at toplevel?
2015-07-13T15:54:35Z nyef: Err... not at the REPL?
2015-07-13T15:57:31Z nyef: Hrm. Not happening in a far more recent SBCL.
2015-07-13T15:57:44Z nyef: Either the policy is different, or it's since been fixed.
2015-07-13T16:00:13Z nyef: And the policy looks the same, except that allow-non-returning-tail-call is new since then.
2015-07-13T16:00:20Z nyef: Guess it must've been fixed.
2015-07-13T16:00:30Z stassats: what's the test case?
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2015-07-13T16:01:56Z nyef: http://paste.lisp.org/display/151540
2015-07-13T16:02:48Z nyef: Oh, damnit. Something else is going on.
2015-07-13T16:03:01Z nyef: That doesn't blow up, either.
2015-07-13T16:03:11Z nyef: ... Macrolet? Maybe the macrolet is involved.
2015-07-13T16:04:29Z nyef: Ugh. No time to debug this now. /-:
2015-07-13T16:05:54Z flip214: care to share? that would be fair ;)
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2015-07-13T17:57:13Z nyef: Got it! Reproduced with a short-ish test case on 1.2.13.48-4d06dba-dirty.
2015-07-13T17:57:59Z nyef: http://paste.lisp.org/display/151540#1
2015-07-13T17:58:30Z nyef: Does need to be COMPILE-FILEd, though.
2015-07-13T17:59:41Z nyef: I'll try to minimize that a bit and file the bug later.
2015-07-13T17:59:46Z stassats: (locally (declare (optimize sb-c:store-coverage-data)) (let (())))
2015-07-13T18:00:32Z stassats: (locally (declare (optimize sb-c:store-coverage-data)) (1)) if you want to be really short
2015-07-13T18:00:47Z nyef: ... That was quick.
2015-07-13T18:00:57Z nyef: Is there already a bug for this in the tracker?
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2015-07-13T18:03:35Z nyef: What do we call this, "compile errors while storing coverage data lead to failed AVER"?
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2015-07-13T22:52:29Z francogrex: all hi
2015-07-13T22:53:03Z francogrex: see this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/151555 when it is like that it get the right output: 168
2015-07-13T22:53:23Z francogrex: but when ;;(format t "~a ~a " n tmp) is commented out it bugs! why?
2015-07-13T22:58:46Z stassats: what are you doing?
2015-07-13T22:59:04Z stassats: i don't know if you're serious
2015-07-13T23:00:55Z francogrex: did you try it?
2015-07-13T23:01:05Z stassats: this is the silliest thing i've seen today
2015-07-13T23:01:13Z francogrex: why?
2015-07-13T23:01:27Z francogrex: you must have seen a lot of impressive things then
2015-07-13T23:01:41Z stassats: because that's the slowest possible algorithm for computing primes
2015-07-13T23:01:55Z stassats: optimizing it is with assembly is just silly
2015-07-13T23:02:02Z stassats: s/is//
2015-07-13T23:02:20Z francogrex: stassats: it's the one you had written. I only replaced isqrt
2015-07-13T23:02:42Z francogrex: with isqrt32
2015-07-13T23:03:10Z stassats: i didn't write it, i just debutechered your version, but for small values (floor (sqrt )) will be faster (won't work for large values)
2015-07-13T23:03:57Z francogrex: (floor (sqrt x)) faster than (isqrt x) for small x ?
2015-07-13T23:04:06Z stassats: for any x for which it doesn't crash
2015-07-13T23:04:37Z francogrex: but what's the deal with the isqrt32 function?
2015-07-13T23:05:11Z francogrex: it outputs as isqrt
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2015-07-13T23:05:37Z stassats: francogrex: http://paste.lisp.org/display/151555#1
2015-07-13T23:07:00Z francogrex: yes very fast
2015-07-13T23:07:06Z stassats: your VOP is just completely wrong
2015-07-13T23:07:20Z francogrex: on some level
2015-07-13T23:07:33Z francogrex: I tested it against isqrt
2015-07-13T23:08:34Z stassats: there are certain rules to be obeyed when writing vops, yours breaks all of them
2015-07-13T23:08:50Z francogrex: if I replace isqrt in COUNT-PRIMES with isqrt32 (vop) it works...
2015-07-13T23:08:51Z stassats: and even if you were writing raw assembly, you wouldn't write such code either
2015-07-13T23:09:02Z stassats: (sorry for being so encouraging )
2015-07-13T23:09:20Z francogrex: it's better like that than a fake tap on the back
2015-07-13T23:09:33Z francogrex: at least I can know what's wrong
2015-07-13T23:09:45Z stassats: francogrex: there's no guide on how VOPs work, and there's too many wrong things with yours to get into
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2015-07-13T23:10:20Z stassats: but you're not allocating registers, you're manually using stack, etc. etc.
2015-07-13T23:10:22Z francogrex: there are some posts on the internet
2015-07-13T23:10:50Z francogrex: basically I copy pasted an asm code there
2015-07-13T23:11:37Z stassats: this is cargo cult, it never will work
2015-07-13T23:12:24Z stassats: if you want to learn vops, study the sb-rotate-byte contrib
2015-07-13T23:13:13Z stassats: but if you use VOPs, the code better be faster, and not have things like  imul r 4
2015-07-13T23:15:01Z stassats: and i will change ISQRT to use SQRT on CPUs that have such an instruction
2015-07-13T23:15:59Z francogrex: yes I am looking at the contrib/sb-rotate-byte
2015-07-13T23:17:25Z stassats: you have to follow the rules, such as: don't modify the registers you haven't allocated for result or as temporaries
2015-07-13T23:17:46Z stassats: do not use stack, at least the way you did it
2015-07-13T23:18:21Z stassats: those are at least enough to not wreak havoc
2015-07-13T23:19:11Z stassats: or better just don't use VOPs
2015-07-13T23:20:31Z francogrex: I don't use for serious things; but the whole aim was to understand vops
2015-07-13T23:20:38Z francogrex: i also found this: http://www.pvk.ca/Blog/2014/03/15/sbcl-the-ultimate-assembly-code-breadboard/
2015-07-13T23:20:57Z stassats: that's someone you can listen to
2015-07-13T23:21:42Z francogrex: yes there are explanations etc
2015-07-13T23:22:02Z stassats: but that looks a bit more complicated than just VOPs
2015-07-13T23:22:58Z stassats: francogrex: why not take NASM or something and play there?
2015-07-13T23:23:09Z francogrex: it's more indeed. only vop I found this one: http://lisper.ru/articles/sbcl-add-vop
2015-07-13T23:23:11Z stassats: you'll get proper assembler and debugging tools much easier
2015-07-13T23:23:57Z francogrex: NASM yes I have I also use. Through seems sbcl's vop are significantly different than plain assembly writing
2015-07-13T23:24:19Z stassats: because it's not for writing assembly code, it's for implementing SBCL
2015-07-13T23:24:55Z francogrex: ok
2015-07-13T23:25:35Z stassats: and it's something you don't need unless you're developing SBCL itself
2015-07-13T23:26:18Z stassats: for example, using a faster algorithm, like i pasted, will produce actual results
2015-07-13T23:26:51Z stassats: and i think VOPs is our only interface for simd?
2015-07-13T23:29:30Z stassats: and that russian link, see that  MOV RDX, RDX? that's why it should have used (move c a) not (inst mov c a)
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2015-07-13T23:41:27Z francogrex: ok, yes indeed your version using plain lisp with delarations is fastest - also its disassembly is 'pure'
2015-07-13T23:41:58Z francogrex: expect for the isqrt fdefinition... I wanted to steal one from C
2015-07-13T23:42:12Z stassats: it's called once
2015-07-13T23:42:46Z nyef: Not quite at the level of optimizing the idle loop, but close, huh?
2015-07-13T23:43:13Z stassats: 53-bit integers can go through SQRT
2015-07-13T23:43:55Z nyef: That... looks suspiciously like a mantissa width.
2015-07-13T23:44:20Z stassats: that's when they will lose their precision
2015-07-13T23:44:25Z nyef: ... I don't suppose we can use long-floats to bump that bitwidth limit up, can we?
2015-07-13T23:44:40Z stassats: and call to x87?
2015-07-13T23:44:48Z nyef: Something like that.
2015-07-13T23:44:49Z francogrex: (time (COUNT-PRIMES 1000000)) => 0.009 seconds
2015-07-13T23:45:06Z nyef: Not particularly familiar with floaty numbers.
2015-07-13T23:45:49Z nyef: Though I might become more familiar with them as I start hacking on OpenGL stuff.
2015-07-13T23:46:12Z stassats: graphics stuff is heavy on single floats, or so i heard
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2015-07-13T23:46:56Z nyef: Yeah, in this case I'm looking at trying to figure out a video card that has a hardware OpenGL 1.2 or so implementation.
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2015-07-13T23:47:16Z stassats: "hardware"?
2015-07-13T23:47:23Z nyef: Okay, it's probably microcode.
2015-07-13T23:47:45Z nyef: It basically presents a FIFO, and you stuff OpenGL operations down its throat.
2015-07-13T23:47:51Z francogrex: bye. /quit
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2015-07-13T23:47:57Z stassats: so, no drivers?
2015-07-13T23:48:14Z nyef: No open-source drivers yet.
2015-07-13T23:48:38Z stassats: i think half of the GPU operation is in drivers
2015-07-13T23:48:47Z nyef: Well, beyond a simple "framebuffer" that uses stippled rectangles to render characters.
2015-07-13T23:48:52Z stassats: that's the part i always somewhat disliked
2015-07-13T23:50:18Z nyef: Seriously, this is on the order of "glBegin is 0x......., and followed by one word for the parameter", "Vertex2i is 0x........, and followed by two words, one for the X and one for the Y", "glEnd is 0x......., and takes no parameters".
2015-07-13T23:51:27Z stassats: so, not compiling to some proprietary instruction set?
2015-07-13T23:51:38Z nyef: Not that I've seen.
2015-07-13T23:51:47Z nyef: But, again, it's pre-shader OpenGL.
2015-07-13T23:52:11Z stassats: so, you're making or you have it?
2015-07-13T23:53:15Z nyef: It's an SGI "VPro" or "ODYSSEY" card. I've got two V10s (32 megs of RAM) and one V12 (128 or so megs of RAM), with one of the V10s and the V12 installed in computers.
2015-07-13T23:53:36Z Bike: i guess glNewList must start some kind of wack procedure definition. must be fun
2015-07-13T23:53:55Z nyef: Bike: That might be handled on the driver side.
2015-07-13T23:54:42Z stassats is reading about the new xeon phi
2015-07-13T23:54:50Z stassats: now, sbcl on it might be interesting
2015-07-13T23:55:10Z stassats: if only i had task which could be suitable for it
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2015-07-13T23:55:45Z nyef: Anyway, I was poking around the framebuffer driver, trying to figure out some of the undocumented constants, and realized that some of them had to be floats, so I started getting a bit of a feel for how floating point values map to bit-patterns in memory.
2015-07-13T23:56:04Z nyef: First real progress I've made in getting any sort of a feel for floats in ages.
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2015-07-14T06:14:10Z abcdabcd987: hello
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2015-07-14T06:14:38Z abcdabcd987: I have trouble installing linedit
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2015-07-14T06:15:16Z abcdabcd987: http://pastebin.com/AcsGPtSb
2015-07-14T06:15:23Z abcdabcd987: Could somebody help me? Thanks!
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2015-07-14T06:43:18Z |3b|: abcdabcd987: quicklisp switched to a separate version of terminfo lib instead of the one in linedt, and it has a bug on darwin
2015-07-14T06:44:47Z |3b|: i think it has been fixed upstream, so you can download current version into ~/quicklisp/local-projects until next quicklisp release, or just edit the file to change that (CHAR-NAME 0) to (CHAR NAME 0)
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2015-07-14T07:09:19Z flip214: |3b|: is that a real git hash, or a faked one?
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2015-07-14T07:52:29Z |3b|: flip214: you mean the nick i was responding to?
2015-07-14T07:55:12Z flip214: ah, perhaps. right. sorry, thought you were referencing a git commit.
2015-07-14T07:55:18Z flip214: need to learn to read at some time...
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2015-07-14T08:37:27Z stassats: oh ha-ha, flexi-streams doesn't work on #-sb-unicode
2015-07-14T08:37:36Z stassats: and here i thought i broke something important
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2015-07-14T10:46:47Z loke: stassats: Hello, you around?
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2015-07-14T10:46:52Z stassats: maybe
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2015-07-14T10:47:16Z loke: stassats: Did you see my post on the mailing list re. the weird behaviour of subtypep?
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2015-07-14T10:47:39Z loke: There was no reply at all, and I don't even know if it was delivered to the list.
2015-07-14T10:48:07Z stassats: i think we discussed it here
2015-07-14T10:48:26Z loke: I was talking to nyef about it, that's all I saw
2015-07-14T10:49:26Z stassats: not with you
2015-07-14T10:49:27Z loke: Ah
2015-07-14T10:49:27Z loke: What was the conclusion?
2015-07-14T10:49:34Z stassats: that the default value of type=-something should be changed
2015-07-14T10:49:41Z stassats: i didn't follow closely
2015-07-14T10:50:33Z loke: Does SBCL have any machinery to prove simple SATISIFES types? (like in the example, (SATISFIES PLUSP))
2015-07-14T10:50:42Z stassats: no
2015-07-14T10:51:32Z stassats: it could be converted, but there's no real value in that
2015-07-14T10:53:55Z loke: Fair enough
2015-07-14T10:54:28Z stassats: (no pun intended)
2015-07-14T10:54:35Z loke: I should change my satisifies plusp to the trick nyef told me. He said that (0) (instead of 0 without the parens) is equibalent to plusp
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2015-07-14T10:54:50Z loke: speaking of the devils
2015-07-14T10:58:38Z nyef: Apparently, I'm just dropping in to disclaim credit for that. Someone else supplied the exclusive-bound trick in that conversation.
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2015-07-14T14:21:26Z stassats: maybe i should add #-sb-unicode (error "doesn't work") to flexi-streams
2015-07-14T14:21:30Z stassats: instead of making it work
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2015-07-14T17:37:22Z stassats: got direct constant encoding for error traps
2015-07-14T17:37:43Z stassats: "got", need to survive the build first
2015-07-14T17:39:50Z stassats: 32K of core savings, "yay"
2015-07-14T17:40:05Z stassats: i was hoping for maybe 64, but ok, i had to add some support code
2015-07-14T17:42:53Z stassats: direct as in http://paste.lisp.org/display/151586
2015-07-14T17:46:19Z stassats: would be better if the encoding of sc-offsets was more compact
2015-07-14T17:54:13Z stassats: huh, for some reason, (lambda (x) (print 10) (print 20) (the (unsigned-byte 16) x)) X has to be loaded from the stack for the type-check
2015-07-14T17:54:22Z stassats: but not in (lambda (x) (print 10) (the (unsigned-byte 16) x))
2015-07-14T17:57:23Z stassats: quite strange
2015-07-14T18:01:24Z stassats: or in (lambda (x) (declare (optimize speed)) (print 10) (+ x x)) vs (lambda (x) (declare (optimize speed)) (print 20) (print 10) (+ x x))
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2015-07-14T18:36:44Z stassats: it's somewhere in SB-REGALLOC::OPTIMIZED-EMIT-SAVES-BLOCK
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2015-07-14T22:04:19Z stassats: nyef: have you tried the coverage bug?
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2015-07-14T22:11:29Z nyef: I haven't added it to the track, but it seems reproducible.
2015-07-14T22:11:59Z nyef: Er... haven't added it to the tracker.
2015-07-14T22:12:12Z stassats: ir1-convert splices a tracking form, but when ir1-convert-functoid calls ir1-convert ctran-next is already filled
2015-07-14T22:12:28Z stassats: with a combination for rplacd (part of the tracking code)
2015-07-14T22:13:27Z stassats: but rplacd should be before the code, shouldn't it?
2015-07-14T22:14:18Z nyef: I have no idea right now, and precious little brain power either.
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2015-07-14T22:41:08Z stassats: oh hey, i see the problem
2015-07-14T22:41:15Z stassats: and it's easy
2015-07-14T22:42:11Z stassats: look at ir1-convert, instrument-coverage creates a new START, but ir1-error-bailout (which catches the error) is used before that, and it uses the old value of START, hence the ctran-next is pointing to the coverage code
2015-07-14T22:46:31Z stassats: this just requires moving ir1-error-bailout after instrument-coverage
2015-07-14T22:47:36Z nyef: Can ensure-source-path or instrument-coverage signal an error that ir1-error-bailout should catch?
2015-07-14T22:47:50Z nyef: Otherwise, yeah, looks like a good catch.
2015-07-14T22:48:29Z stassats: instrument-coverage calls ir1-convert itself, so it will get its own bailout
2015-07-14T22:48:33Z stassats: unlike greece
2015-07-14T22:50:26Z nyef: Wow. Low blow. (-:
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2015-07-14T23:06:33Z stassats: fix committed
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2015-07-14T23:07:47Z nyef: Nice. Thank you.
2015-07-14T23:08:45Z stassats: now i need to port my break-direct-constant-encoding to x86, arm and ppc
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2015-07-14T23:35:07Z stassats: doesn't seem to help on arm, due to instructions being fixed size and constant scs having larger encoding
2015-07-14T23:37:40Z stassats: illegal-move vop is unused?
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2015-07-14T23:43:59Z stassats: since 1990-04-16
2015-07-14T23:51:40Z stassats: removing 25-year code, what could be better
2015-07-14T23:52:38Z nyef: Removing comments that have been inaccurate for about as long.
2015-07-14T23:53:11Z stassats: the first commit is on Feb 1 1990
2015-07-14T23:53:22Z stassats: no older code identifiable, sadly
2015-07-15T00:01:04Z stassats: haven't done a full build on arm in some time
2015-07-15T00:01:17Z akkad: still building on my vax.
2015-07-15T00:01:45Z stassats: did you start on Feb 2 1990?
2015-07-15T00:01:52Z nyef: VAX was actually on my list of "amusing port ideas" for SBCL.
2015-07-15T00:02:15Z stassats: porting sbcl is sadly not amusing
2015-07-15T00:05:35Z nyef: No. That took a lot of doing.
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2015-07-15T00:06:46Z stassats: i should put a cooler on the phone while building sbcl
2015-07-15T00:06:59Z stassats: i need to find 12 volts first
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2015-07-15T00:12:34Z stassats: routed a fan header form the desktop
2015-07-15T00:18:22Z stassats: i wonder if it'll impact build times
2015-07-15T00:23:04Z akkad: $6k for an smp/64bit compiler that really sort of sucks compared to sbcl...
2015-07-15T00:23:50Z stassats: acl or lispworks?
2015-07-15T00:24:05Z akkad: acl
2015-07-15T00:24:09Z akkad: lw is much cheaper
2015-07-15T00:24:39Z stassats: 6K for a business doesn't sound like that much
2015-07-15T00:24:57Z akkad: true
2015-07-15T00:25:12Z nyef: For an established business, maybe.
2015-07-15T00:25:17Z stassats: and it has things sbcl lacks
2015-07-15T00:25:29Z nyef: Like paid support?
2015-07-15T00:25:45Z stassats: GUI, small deliveries
2015-07-15T00:25:49Z akkad: $9k in beer for this channel helps
2015-07-15T00:25:51Z nyef: Ah, right. Those.
2015-07-15T00:25:57Z akkad: 6
2015-07-15T00:26:27Z stassats: i'll take 8
2015-07-15T00:26:37Z stassats: last offer
2015-07-15T00:30:49Z stassats: ok, thermal throttling doesn't seem to be a problem
2015-07-15T00:30:56Z stassats: builds in 11:50
2015-07-15T00:34:01Z stassats: properly cooled and powered ARM CPU can really compete with intel
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2015-07-15T00:49:00Z Bike: i'm looking at fasls. there's a lot more machinery for loading symbols with names more than 256 characters long than i would particularly expect.
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2015-07-15T01:02:20Z stassats: #-sb-eval build is broken
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2015-07-15T01:06:30Z stassats: fixed one problem, another pops out
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2015-07-15T01:21:39Z stassats: huh, can't build with the current sbcl or something?
2015-07-15T01:22:02Z stassats: did i break map?
2015-07-15T01:22:58Z stassats: i did :(
2015-07-15T01:23:14Z stassats: stupid incomplete tests
2015-07-15T01:52:23Z stassats: so, i had sbcl 1.1.11.44 compiled with SPEED 3 and SAFETY 0 I use to build sbcl
2015-07-15T01:52:39Z stassats: it took 2:30, i updated it to the current sbcl, and now it takes 2:20
2015-07-15T01:53:05Z stassats: 10 seconds off in 2 years
2015-07-15T01:55:38Z stassats: sub 2 minutes builds with the upcoming intel CPU?
2015-07-15T01:56:46Z nyef: Just a little better than the current Clasp build time, huh?
2015-07-15T01:57:07Z stassats: marginally
2015-07-15T02:08:24Z stassats: MAKEFLAGS=-j8 gives 2:17
2015-07-15T02:15:24Z stassats: removing two (sleep 5) from a sb-bsd-sockets test will give more of a speed up
2015-07-15T02:15:44Z stassats: but that'll require making sure that it does what it needs to do
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2015-07-15T03:37:54Z Bike: i have written a fasl disassembler. this format is kind of all over the place.
2015-07-15T03:38:18Z nyef: Heh. You wrote a fasl disassembler too?
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2015-07-15T03:38:36Z nyef: And, yeah, it IS a bit of a crazy format.
2015-07-15T03:38:45Z stassats: the stack thing should go
2015-07-15T03:38:59Z Bike: the whole format could stand to go, yes.
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2015-07-15T03:39:25Z nyef: I've long wanted a mmap()able heap chunk as a fasl format.
2015-07-15T03:40:03Z nyef: mmap() it in, apply base relocations, apply fixups, run the toplevels, and done. Let the GC clean up the rest.
2015-07-15T03:40:09Z stassats: the problem with the stack machine is that it appear as if the dumper doesn't know anything about the loader
2015-07-15T03:40:12Z stassats: which is not true
2015-07-15T03:40:22Z stassats: it could be more optimized
2015-07-15T03:43:39Z stassats: nyef: things can be more compactly written on disk than they are in memory
2015-07-15T03:43:52Z nyef: Okay, that's fair.
2015-07-15T03:43:53Z stassats: the less things are written, the faster it is
2015-07-15T03:45:13Z stassats: and i don't really want to get side tracked with a new FASL format
2015-07-15T03:45:33Z stassats: it won't buy anything currently, except fresh bugs
2015-07-15T03:46:12Z Bike: i think i will try to get distracted
2015-07-15T03:46:29Z stassats: start with M-x erase-biffer
2015-07-15T03:47:08Z stassats: so, basically there are two things code components and fop-compilation
2015-07-15T03:48:25Z stassats: code components consist of machine code and constants
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2015-07-15T03:49:02Z stassats: code needs to be relocated, addresses of assembly routines and foreign stuff inserted
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2015-07-15T03:49:35Z stassats: fop-compilation is basically what EVAL can do without calling compile-in-lexenv
2015-07-15T03:51:05Z stassats: for a start, i guess you can disable fop-compilation
2015-07-15T03:58:45Z Bike: Would that make everything components or would there still be symbol strings and stuff in the fasl with string fops?
2015-07-15T04:01:30Z stassats: there still would be constants, load-time-values, etc.
2015-07-15T04:02:27Z stassats: Bike: redefine SB-C::FOPCOMPILABLE-P to return NIL and look at what your disfasler produces
2015-07-15T04:05:10Z Bike: there's actually more fop commands now.
2015-07-15T04:05:33Z stassats: well, it's supposed to be more compact
2015-07-15T04:06:01Z Bike: it's mostly number stuff instead of function calls and all.
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2015-07-15T04:13:11Z 
2015-07-15T04:13:11Z names: ccl-logbot Quadrescence nikki93 White_Flame oleo__ luis nyef slyrus pchrist Guest49994 jibanes ASau aeth drmeister schjetne emanuelz foom _iwc sdemarre ivan4th stassats psy_ scymtym frankS2 mood irsol clop Xach alchemis7 reb` psilord dustinm` jdz hlavaty les salva loke fikusz Adlai rj-code kanru specbot minion Intensity Blkt_ akkad fe[nl]ix carvite jackc- snafuchs abbe jsnell p_l flip214 Bike ferada PuercoPop brucem christoph_debian joshe |3b| nicdev
2015-07-15T04:13:11Z names: antoszka yauz tmh_ dsp_ jackdaniel
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2015-07-15T04:45:36Z Bike: okay, so fasl-dump-components, fasl-dump-cold-fset, fasl-dump-load-time-value-lambda, fasl-dump-toplevel-lambda-call, and fasl-dump-source-info seem to be all the main compiler actually uses... so no constants outside of components, maybe.
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2015-07-15T06:46:40Z |3b|: so i can define a class with an unknown superclass, but i can't redefine a class to one with an unknown superclass?
2015-07-15T06:47:02Z stassats: redefining is undefined
2015-07-15T06:47:35Z stassats: sorry, you're talking about super, not meta classes
2015-07-15T06:48:16Z |3b|: right
2015-07-15T06:48:30Z stassats: if you have instances of the class already, how would that work?
2015-07-15T06:48:49Z stassats: you can't finalize a class with forward referenced superclasses
2015-07-15T06:48:50Z |3b|: probably wouldn't
2015-07-15T06:49:25Z stassats: so, you can redefine it
2015-07-15T06:49:31Z stassats: just not finalize it
2015-07-15T06:53:00Z |3b| found "note: Cannot optimize slot access, inheritance of <...> is not yet finalizable due to forward-referenced superclasses: (SB-PCL::SET-SLOT-VALUE W 'FOO 1)" a bit confusing, though i'm guessing from the empty line after "superclasses:" it wasn't intended to be read that way
2015-07-15T06:54:45Z |3b|: then got confused when i tried to simplify it and couldn't define a class with undefined superclasses since i'd apparently already defined a class named "FOO"
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2015-07-15T07:07:00Z flip214: christoph_debian: I'm not sure, perhaps I already asked you that - what are the chances to get an SBCL package for debian/ppc64el?
2015-07-15T07:08:42Z stassats: flip214: 0
2015-07-15T07:09:07Z flip214: ;{
2015-07-15T07:09:13Z flip214: thanks for the answer, though.
2015-07-15T07:14:16Z stassats: |3b|: i at least made it to say "in: DEFMETHOD MM (Z) ;     (SLOT-VALUE X 'BB)  ..."
2015-07-15T07:14:24Z stassats: and it gets highlighted in slime properly
2015-07-15T07:15:01Z stassats: now it also needs to print forward referenced classes
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2015-07-15T07:20:01Z stassats: will commit later today
2015-07-15T07:26:54Z stassats: (slot-value) context is breaking some other context
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2015-07-15T08:44:48Z christoph_debian: flip214: if you port SBCL I'll upload the package
2015-07-15T08:45:32Z christoph_debian: you might have success installing the PowerPC package via multiarch though
2015-07-15T08:46:18Z stassats`: there's no 32 bit little-endian arch
2015-07-15T08:46:46Z christoph_debian: true. but as far as I remember there's no hardware switch to flip
2015-07-15T08:47:03Z christoph_debian: and you can run at least ppc64el and powerpc VMs on the same host at least
2015-07-15T08:47:50Z christoph_debian: (natively) which indicates the CPU can switch between modes
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2015-07-15T08:53:22Z flip214: yeah, VMs can be mixed ...
2015-07-15T08:53:47Z flip214: but native userspace can't, I couldn't chroot into a different endianness installation
2015-07-15T08:54:09Z flip214: qemu-ppc-static does help, but that's more VM than native ;/
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2015-07-15T09:00:37Z christoph_debian: jub
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2015-07-15T09:56:40Z dmitigr: is there are development plan (except abstract TODO) for SBCL?
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2015-07-15T14:18:05Z foom: I don't think the kernel supports syscalls in both endiannesses, which would be the problem with just chrooting into a different endianness.
2015-07-15T14:18:44Z stassats: ppc seems to use the same instructions for 64 bits, so porting shouldn't particularly hard
2015-07-15T14:19:14Z foom: yes, it was designed to be a 64bit isa with a 32bit subset.
2015-07-15T14:20:16Z foom: Is there really no kernel support for 32bit little endian binaries, anyways?
2015-07-15T14:20:40Z stassats: there's just no ABI?
2015-07-15T14:21:26Z foom: oh, and no packages either. :)
2015-07-15T14:21:36Z flip214: I'd be happy with 64bit binaries, too...
2015-07-15T14:21:54Z foom: yea, but there's no 64bit port of sbcl for ppc yet, either
2015-07-15T14:22:32Z foom: I mean, it's just two porting efforts: 64bit ppc, and also little endian ppc.
2015-07-15T14:22:37Z foom: You could totally do it. :)
2015-07-15T14:22:57Z nyef: The 64bit PPC port would probably be the harder of the two.
2015-07-15T14:22:58Z stassats: little endian should just work
2015-07-15T14:23:25Z foom: "should"
2015-07-15T14:24:17Z nyef: IIRC, MIPS and ARM have specific bits in their backends to cover endianness.
2015-07-15T14:25:18Z Xof: I'm moderately confident that endianness issues have been sorted out
2015-07-15T14:25:18Z minion: Xof, memo from jackdaniel: is there a chance that "User-extensible sequences in Common Lisp" will land in CDR (https://common-lisp.net/project/cdr/)?
2015-07-15T14:25:21Z Xof: over the decades
2015-07-15T14:25:52Z Xof: jackdaniel: huh, that's an interesting question.  I think I would offer a counter-question: why?
2015-07-15T14:26:12Z stassats: nobody seems to pay any attention to CDR
2015-07-15T14:26:38Z Xof: probably because no-one is paying for their lisp these days
2015-07-15T14:26:43Z jackdaniel: huh, it is 2w old question, but still actual. Well, I'm planning to add features in next ecl release and I think, that for portability reason over implementations cdr is best place for such extensions
2015-07-15T14:27:10Z Xof: jackdaniel: the only thing CDR gives is a stable URL for documents
2015-07-15T14:27:20Z Xof: User-extensible sequences in Common Lisp already has several stable URLs
2015-07-15T14:27:37Z Xof: e.g. http://research.gold.ac.uk/2344/
2015-07-15T14:27:59Z Xof: of course there are some minor modifications in SBCL's implementation since that time
2015-07-15T14:28:31Z jackdaniel: well, yes and no, depence on consensus where agreed extensions are. I think cdr is nice idea and might be a storage for semi-standard in this matter (pardon my bad english)
2015-07-15T14:28:56Z Xof: right, but it's not an agreed extension until it gets implemented everywhere
2015-07-15T14:29:03Z Xof: chicken, meet egg
2015-07-15T14:30:00Z Xof: I don't have the resources to engage enough of the community to agree the detail of extensions which will be implemented everywhere
2015-07-15T14:30:20Z Xof: so if it ended up as a CDR, it would be indistinguishable from its existing form
2015-07-15T14:30:22Z jackdaniel: that's true. anyway, I think it's not that bad to put /proposed/ extensions in one place either
2015-07-15T14:30:24Z Xof: in which case, what is the point?
2015-07-15T14:30:52Z Xof: I mean, I'd have no objections in someone taking the existing document and making it a CDR anyway
2015-07-15T14:31:00Z Xof: but I thought that Pascal had stopped accepting new CDRs
2015-07-15T14:32:50Z jackdaniel: hm, maybe I'm wrong, but I see benefits of having PEP counterpart for CL (at least for maintainers)
2015-07-15T14:33:27Z jackdaniel: many implementations have incompatible, or unique features, but if someone would want to catch up (or create new implementation), his job would be easier
2015-07-15T14:33:34Z Xof: I think the benefit is actually to users
2015-07-15T14:33:35Z jackdaniel: s/features/extensions/
2015-07-15T14:33:48Z jackdaniel: yes, users too
2015-07-15T14:33:57Z Xof: users can use them to put pressure on implementors to implement features that implementors don't care about
2015-07-15T14:34:04Z Xof: or they could if implementors cared about their users
2015-07-15T14:34:11Z Xof: (some do)
2015-07-15T14:36:45Z jackdaniel: I do agree. Also I've presented my point of view on that matter. /me has nothing to add
2015-07-15T14:37:02Z Xof: OK.  Please do implement the extension in ECL, by the way
2015-07-15T14:37:25Z Xof: you just have to refer to http://research.gold.ac.uk/2344/ instead of http://common-lisp.net/project/cdr/17
2015-07-15T14:37:53Z jackdaniel: I plan to
2015-07-15T14:41:44Z Xof: great
2015-07-15T14:41:47Z Xof: let me know if I can help
2015-07-15T14:42:09Z jackdaniel: sure, thanks :)
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2015-07-15T15:11:44Z scymtym: jackdaniel: in case Xof isn't available, i can probably answer some questions as well
2015-07-15T15:13:06Z jackdaniel: I appreciate that, thanks :)
2015-07-15T15:14:35Z scymtym: maybe we should create a test suite for extensible sequence implementations to complement (if not replace) a specification. that would definitely help implementors.
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2015-07-15T18:27:07Z stassats: can't figure how to properly set up sb!c::*current-path* from within a pcl method walker
2015-07-15T18:27:45Z stassats: the form gets highlighted, but an enclosing (let (unused)) gets sidelined
2015-07-15T18:29:44Z stassats: and the same thing from CASE works
2015-07-15T18:35:12Z stassats: probably because CASE doesn't subsume the surrounding forms
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2015-07-15T20:30:56Z stassats: |3b|: can't really make my changes work at the moment
2015-07-15T20:31:34Z stassats: if it's coming to source locations, i want to finally solve (progn (defun foo ()) (defun bar ())) getting the same location
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2015-07-16T07:46:52Z nml: Is there a way to output the IRs for a given expression or lambda in the REPL?
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2015-07-16T09:28:39Z Xof: nml: set a breakpoint on sb-c::generate-code [use (TRACE :BREAK T) ]
2015-07-16T09:29:10Z Xof: then (sb-c::describe-component sb-c::*current-component* *standard-output*)
2015-07-16T09:29:23Z Xof: and (sb-c::describe-ir2-component sb-c::*current-component *standard-output*)
2015-07-16T09:29:33Z stassats: (setf sb-c::*compiler-trace-output* *standard-output*)
2015-07-16T09:46:57Z nml: xof, stassats I'll try it later. Thank you
2015-07-16T09:51:08Z nml: BTW, is it possible to retrieve those data structure as 'first-class' object rather than serialized strings?
2015-07-16T09:51:54Z nml: (then I might be able to print them using general object printer?)
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2015-07-16T10:23:58Z scymtym: nml: i use something like this: (trace sb-c::ir1-phases :print (graph-component (sb-debug:arg 0)))
2015-07-16T10:24:51Z scymtym: (replace IR1-PHASES and (sb-debug:arg 0) with appropriate function and argument)
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2015-07-16T15:57:16Z scymtym: any last-minute objections to pushing the deprecation machinery changes? i am currently running tests and would like to push soon.
2015-07-16T16:03:46Z stassats: deprecate them all, for all i care
2015-07-16T16:06:40Z scymtym: this will only affect the machinery - nothing will be deprecated
2015-07-16T16:07:44Z scymtym: this will allow users to have their own deprecation fallout
2015-07-16T16:11:29Z Xach: lucky users!
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2015-07-16T16:14:26Z scymtym: but seriously, i think having a working, exported and documented DEPRECATED declaration is better than not having it
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2015-07-16T17:10:28Z stassats: looks like a need a source tracking reader
2015-07-16T17:10:33Z stassats: i need
2015-07-16T17:11:12Z stassats: i can see how i could see through PROGNs and MACROLETs if i had one
2015-07-16T17:12:09Z stassats: so, there is form-tracking-stream
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2015-07-16T18:52:27Z lasdjjfalsd: http://sbcl.org/ seems to be broken
2015-07-16T18:53:17Z |3b|: everything hosted on sourceforge (including that) is, currently :/
2015-07-16T18:53:24Z joshe: it's hosted on sourceforge, wait a while and it should come back up
2015-07-16T18:55:48Z lasdjjfalsd: oops
2015-07-16T18:55:57Z lasdjjfalsd is now known as dmitigr
2015-07-16T18:56:03Z dmitigr: idiotic nick
2015-07-16T18:57:24Z dmitigr: but http://sourceforge.net/home.html works well...
2015-07-16T18:58:50Z |3b|: sure, so does the 404 page everything else redirects to :p
2015-07-16T18:59:18Z |3b|: big websites tend to be in enough pieces to fail incrementally
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2015-07-16T19:08:22Z nyef: Okay, WTF? "caught STYLE-WARNING: This is not a STRING: NIL"
2015-07-16T19:09:36Z stassats: it's not lying, for one thing
2015-07-16T19:09:49Z nyef: http://paste.lisp.org/display/151704
2015-07-16T19:10:10Z nyef: Am I doing something stupid here?
2015-07-16T19:10:46Z stassats: i don't have a style warning
2015-07-16T19:10:48Z stassats: or any warning
2015-07-16T19:10:51Z stassats: or any condition
2015-07-16T19:10:55Z stassats: or any output
2015-07-16T19:12:16Z stassats: needs (declare (optimize speed))
2015-07-16T19:12:45Z nyef: Seems to happen under default policy for me.
2015-07-16T19:12:51Z |3b|: same here
2015-07-16T19:13:06Z stassats: then it needs debug 1
2015-07-16T19:14:17Z nyef: So, there's at least one bug here: The warning message is completely bizarre, and gives no indication as to what's going on.
2015-07-16T19:14:22Z |3b|: something about the find-symbol not realizing uppered-input is not nil if VALID-1 ?
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2015-07-16T19:14:55Z |3b|: (find-symbol (string ... makes it go away
2015-07-16T19:15:31Z |3b|: as does (and uppered-input (find-symbol ...
2015-07-16T19:16:09Z nyef: |3b|: Thank you. That at least means that I can continue work, rather than chase a compiler bug.
2015-07-16T19:16:59Z |3b|: well, it is at least a compiler oddity
2015-07-16T19:17:25Z |3b|: putting something in the body of the LET that depends on UPPERED-INPUT being a string makes it go away too
2015-07-16T19:17:57Z |3b|: actually, i guess any use
2015-07-16T19:19:11Z nyef: So, something weird with type propagation?
2015-07-16T19:19:31Z nyef: Especially since this is fairly obviously valid code.
2015-07-16T19:20:01Z stassats: (defun test (input) (find-symbol (and input (string-upcase input)) :keyword))
2015-07-16T19:20:06Z stassats: c.f. (find-symbol (and input (string-upcase input)))
2015-07-16T19:21:19Z nyef: But those are two completely different cases.
2015-07-16T19:21:54Z stassats: also (defun test (input) (find-symbol (and input input)))
2015-07-16T19:22:26Z stassats: i.e. the usual thing with dead branches and types
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2015-07-16T19:24:41Z nyef: Except that in this case there is, in principle, sufficient information to realize that UPPERED-INPUT is only NULL when VALID-1 is also NULL.
2015-07-16T19:25:15Z stassats: sufficient for whom?
2015-07-16T19:26:35Z nyef: A "sufficiently smart compiler", of course. d-:
2015-07-16T19:28:37Z stassats: and it highlights the wrong form
2015-07-16T19:29:53Z stassats: well, if it's constant single-lvar-substituted, then it's the right form
2015-07-16T19:30:39Z stassats: that's why it doesn't happen with DEBUG 2, it's not single-lvar-substituted
2015-07-16T19:30:52Z stassats: single-use
2015-07-16T19:31:04Z nyef: Didn't we JUST hack up that substitution?
2015-07-16T19:32:14Z stassats: http://paste.lisp.org/display/151704#1
2015-07-16T19:32:27Z stassats: (and input (find-symbol (and input (string-upcase input)))) doesn't have it
2015-07-16T19:33:05Z stassats: or no, it does
2015-07-16T19:33:16Z stassats: but in the form of deleting unreachable code
2015-07-16T19:33:42Z stassats: it's (and input (find-symbol (and input (string-upcase input)) :keyword)) which doesn't have it
2015-07-16T19:34:32Z nyef: You're still messing with a separate set of circumstances than I had. Mine involves a separate validation test on the input, so none of the code is really "dead".
2015-07-16T19:35:00Z stassats: this version is the same
2015-07-16T19:35:17Z nyef: (Okay, the NIL is still dead, but that's not the point.)
2015-07-16T19:35:43Z stassats: i should go back to source locations, i almost have it
2015-07-16T19:37:25Z nyef: Good luck, then.
2015-07-16T19:42:57Z stassats: i can get proper character positions easily, but if i want form paths, it'll consume more space
2015-07-16T19:44:03Z stassats: can make it an integer if it's at the top-level, only a list (or maybe a vector) when it's not
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2015-07-16T19:47:53Z scymtym: i think ARRAY-IN-BOUNDS-P may be broken
2015-07-16T19:47:56Z scymtym: (ARRAY-IN-BOUNDS-P #() -1) => T
2015-07-16T19:48:09Z stassats: that may happen
2015-07-16T19:48:25Z stassats: who writes those tests, why wasn't it caught?
2015-07-16T19:48:43Z scymtym: there is also a second failure mode with "The value -1 is not of type SB-INT:INDEX."
2015-07-16T19:48:51Z scymtym: maybe the second one come from the transforms
2015-07-16T19:48:58Z scymtym: *comes
2015-07-16T19:50:34Z stassats: scymtym: if you want to fix it, just insert -1 in all < comparisons
2015-07-16T19:50:43Z stassats: in the transform and the function
2015-07-16T19:51:13Z scymtym: i would have to understand why the current tests didn't catch it
2015-07-16T19:51:20Z scymtym: maybe simple vs. non-simple array?
2015-07-16T19:51:37Z stassats: because there are no such test?
2015-07-16T19:52:04Z scymtym: there is array.pure.lisp:93
2015-07-16T19:53:09Z dmitigr: I have some behaviour for nyef's case here.
2015-07-16T19:53:23Z dmitigr: some = same
2015-07-16T19:54:43Z stassats: changing  (fixnump ,arg) to (typep ,arg '(and fixnum unsigned-byte)) produces more compact code though
2015-07-16T19:54:53Z stassats: but needs to be benchmarked
2015-07-16T19:55:15Z stassats: scymtym: constant -1
2015-07-16T19:56:33Z scymtym: so we need a new test in which the subscript is negative but not constant
2015-07-16T19:56:49Z stassats: (typep ,arg '(and fixnum unsigned-byte)) is faster
2015-07-16T19:57:29Z scymtym: should i prepare the change?
2015-07-16T19:59:45Z stassats: you can
2015-07-16T19:59:58Z stassats: just replace (fixnump x) with (typep x '(and fixnum unsigned-byte))
2015-07-16T20:00:12Z stassats: while i'll be busy with source locations
2015-07-16T20:00:24Z dmitigr: what the strategy of SBCL development? TODO file last updated a year ago.
2015-07-16T20:00:58Z nyef: The "strategy" is approximately "we each hack on whatever we consider to be interesting or important as we find the time and energy".
2015-07-16T20:01:09Z stassats: aka no strategy
2015-07-16T20:01:50Z dmitigr: nyef: and how can I contribute? who is "commitee"?
2015-07-16T20:02:03Z stassats: there is no cabal
2015-07-16T20:02:16Z nyef: Umm... DEFGLOBAL is on TODO?
2015-07-16T20:02:36Z nyef: Isn't TIMEOUTS basically deadlines?
2015-07-16T20:02:40Z dmitigr: stassats: so, how then?
2015-07-16T20:03:01Z pkhuong: dmitigr: people write things, most gets committed.
2015-07-16T20:03:41Z dmitigr: pkhuong: committed by who? I guess there are some "core" developers?
2015-07-16T20:04:38Z pkhuong: yes, committed by maintainers, people who have commit access.
2015-07-16T20:08:20Z dmitigr: pkhuong: so, I could hack and send patches to mailing list?
2015-07-16T20:08:31Z stassats: hm, why are top-level form positions written into the file global vector, and then offsets into it are used
2015-07-16T20:08:40Z nyef: dmitigr: Yes, or attach them to issues in launchpad.
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2015-07-16T20:10:01Z stassats: so that COMPILED-DEBUG-FUN-BLOCKS is smaller?
2015-07-16T20:10:02Z dmitigr: nyef: there are many "FIXME", "KLUDGE" around. So, I can fix whatever I want?
2015-07-16T20:10:30Z Bike: some of those comments are from like 1994 and written by people who disappeared to the bottom of the ocean, though
2015-07-16T20:10:55Z stassats: but compiled-debug-fun-tlf-number is surely even with 32 bits is enough for everyone
2015-07-16T20:11:36Z dmitigr: Bike: but it's still need to be fixed or what?
2015-07-16T20:11:55Z Bike: yeah, i just mean, it might not be easy to do so.
2015-07-16T20:12:02Z stassats: i can make my source locations completely orthogonal to the current way, but that'll take up even more space
2015-07-16T20:12:47Z Bike: like the comment might talk about relations to other parts of the code, that have been completely rewritten in the interim. that kind of thing
2015-07-16T20:13:11Z stassats: most FIXME or KLUDGEs are non-trivial to fix, otherwise they would be fixed right away
2015-07-16T20:13:20Z Bike: i've been looking at fasl stuff and there are some comments in there about working with Dylan. when did that even happen?
2015-07-16T20:13:36Z stassats: in the 90s?
2015-07-16T20:13:43Z dmitigr: so, there are mess in the sources?!
2015-07-16T20:13:56Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2015-07-16T20:14:04Z Xof: it's a project that's about 25 years old
2015-07-16T20:14:08Z Xof: so, "yes"
2015-07-16T20:14:19Z stassats: more like 35?
2015-07-16T20:15:02Z dmitigr: oops, so I bother would it be used in production in 24x7, or just for prototyping?
2015-07-16T20:15:18Z dmitigr: or hacking
2015-07-16T20:15:19Z Bike: that sentence is hard to read.
2015-07-16T20:15:52Z dmitigr: I'm sorry about that.
2015-07-16T20:16:17Z Bike: i mean, i don't understand what you're asking.
2015-07-16T20:17:47Z stassats: so, it start in 1984, so, 30 years
2015-07-16T20:18:05Z dmitigr: I need to improve my english knowledge from read-only to read/write :-)
2015-07-16T20:18:26Z stassats: or spice started around 1980, closer to 35 then
2015-07-16T20:18:56Z dmitigr: Bike: I want to use Lisp in production environment. By I bother about reliability.
2015-07-16T20:19:07Z dmitigr: reliablity of SBCL.
2015-07-16T20:19:08Z nyef: stassats: Heh. Explains why I wound up scraping some CLtL1-era SETF logic out a while back.
2015-07-16T20:19:39Z Bike: oh, well it's not perfect but it's pretty reliable.
2015-07-16T20:19:49Z nyef: dmitigr: Almost all production code has messes in it. I use SBCL in production.
2015-07-16T20:20:14Z dmitigr: nyef: what is your max uptime?
2015-07-16T20:21:14Z dmitigr: to be clear, I want to serve 5k HTTP requests per second 24x7.
2015-07-16T20:21:27Z stassats: already?
2015-07-16T20:21:51Z dmitigr: stasstas: I plan.
2015-07-16T20:21:59Z dmitigr: planing
2015-07-16T20:23:23Z dmitigr: is it reasonable to write a server for SBCL, or it's better to go with just C?
2015-07-16T20:23:27Z nyef: 5k requests per second? Whether you can hit that point or not on any given hardware will depend on how much is involved in serving each individual request.
2015-07-16T20:23:38Z stassats: "C" and "reliability"?
2015-07-16T20:23:40Z stassats: that doesn't compute
2015-07-16T20:24:00Z dmitigr: stassats: it depends on developer :-)
2015-07-16T20:24:04Z stassats: no it doesn't
2015-07-16T20:24:43Z dmitigr: stassats: well, Postgres is unreliable, NGINX is unreliable because it C projects.
2015-07-16T20:24:51Z dmitigr: stassats: ?
2015-07-16T20:25:08Z dmitigr: stassats: so, it is.
2015-07-16T20:25:18Z stassats: http://nginx.org/en/security_advisories.html
2015-07-16T20:25:24Z nyef: There've been some pretty scary bugs in postgresql.
2015-07-16T20:25:43Z nyef: Of the "thoroughly corrupt database" variety.
2015-07-16T20:25:43Z stassats: "SPDY heap buffer overflow" "SPDY memory corruption"
2015-07-16T20:25:47Z stassats: that's C for you
2015-07-16T20:25:56Z stassats: "Stack-based buffer overflow with specially crafted request"
2015-07-16T20:26:32Z dmitigr: okay guys, I already banned in #lisp for discussion about renewing standard of CL, so I don't want to flame about C vs CL.
2015-07-16T20:26:43Z dmitigr: and gets banned :-)
2015-07-16T20:26:55Z dmitigr: or I will just go with C 100% :-) hehe
2015-07-16T20:27:08Z stassats: whatever rocks your stack
2015-07-16T20:27:30Z dmitigr: stassats: da ladno tebe :-)
2015-07-16T20:27:48Z stassats: english, please
2015-07-16T20:27:58Z dmitigr: stassats: :-)
2015-07-16T20:28:59Z dmitigr: well there is no alternative for Postgres, so I'm with it. But how about SBCL?
2015-07-16T20:29:09Z dmitigr: help me guys with choise
2015-07-16T20:29:14Z stassats: this is #sbcl
2015-07-16T20:30:45Z dmitigr: does anybody knows what is the max uptime for medium-loaded service in SBCL?
2015-07-16T20:31:27Z stassats: 16 years
2015-07-16T20:31:45Z dmitigr: stasstas: really?
2015-07-16T20:31:55Z stassats: that's how old SBCL yeas, so, yes, really
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2015-07-16T20:37:42Z dmitigr: stassats: what about load of 5k requests/sec? How long the current SBCL version can alive on properly configured hardware/os?
2015-07-16T20:40:48Z stassats: what's so special about 5K requests?
2015-07-16T20:41:00Z stassats: or any amount of requests
2015-07-16T20:41:13Z stassats: why would it suddenly stop working after a set amount of time?
2015-07-16T20:42:36Z dmitigr: stassats: you are SBCL hacker, not me. So you are better know "why". As I can see, it does'nt depends on amount of live-time or number of requests.
2015-07-16T20:42:49Z dmitigr: stassats: Am I correct?
2015-07-16T20:47:58Z |3b|: dmitigr: anywhere from 0sec to X years, same as any other real languaged implementation
2015-07-16T20:48:14Z |3b|: depends on what you do with it
2015-07-16T20:49:01Z stassats: hm, looks like i can now record source-level form paths
2015-07-16T20:49:28Z stassats: the whole thing can be redone in terms of it, not sure how hard it would be for variables
2015-07-16T20:49:35Z dmitigr: |3b|: suppose I just run Hunchentoot and use Postmodern.
2015-07-16T20:49:52Z stassats: but for top-level forms it should work, so that's where i start
2015-07-16T20:50:23Z |3b|: if those 5k requests matter, you should be dealing with failures anyway
2015-07-16T20:52:20Z |3b|: and if you can't afford to rewrite it in C by the time you are getting 5k req/sec, maybe you should rethink your business model :p
2015-07-16T20:53:27Z scymtym: stassats: http://paste.lisp.org/display/151708 (with added quotes in the TYPEP forms) builds and passes tests. looks ok?
2015-07-16T20:53:54Z dmitigr: |3b|: yes, but I bother about stability on first phases of project. Unresponsible service is a way to failure.
2015-07-16T20:54:05Z stassats: scymtym: in the first change, -1 is not needed
2015-07-16T20:56:02Z stassats: (< -1 x y) should be transformed into (unsigned-< x y)
2015-07-16T20:56:36Z stassats: with (unsigned-byte word-bits) x and y
2015-07-16T20:57:35Z stassats: or with X unsigned, and y being signed
2015-07-16T20:58:49Z stassats wrote that down for the future
2015-07-16T20:59:15Z dmitigr: |3b|: okay, it seems to me that I can go with C++ then. This is also possible option, probably, even better.
2015-07-16T20:59:33Z stassats: ha-ha
2015-07-16T21:00:00Z dmitigr: stassats: yea, just recall WebLocks and ... RethinkDB.
2015-07-16T21:00:07Z dmitigr: )))
2015-07-16T21:00:11Z scymtym: stassats: whoops, left that in from previous suggestion by accident
2015-07-16T21:01:06Z stassats: if there were unsigned-< transformation, (and (fixnump y) (< -1 x y)) would actually be faster and compacter
2015-07-16T21:02:17Z dmitigr: I'm not a troll, guys, really, I just want to decide. Goodbye.
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2015-07-16T21:08:43Z scymtym will push when sourceforge reanimates
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2015-07-16T21:16:21Z stassats: blimey, < gets transformed into two-argument-< too soon for (< -1 x y) to work
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2015-07-17T11:31:06Z mk2: Is there an alternative site to sbcl.org? I want to download an SBCL bianry for Arm. But sbcl.org shows: The sourceforge.net website is temporarily in static offline mode.
2015-07-17T11:31:42Z Shinmera: SF is still down? Wow.
2015-07-17T11:35:14Z Cymew: SF have had so much bad press lately I start to wish everyone would migrate away soon.
2015-07-17T11:36:07Z stassats: mk2: how bad do you need it? is it armhf or armel?
2015-07-17T11:36:18Z stassats: mk2: i can give you my latest build, won't be a stable version
2015-07-17T11:37:21Z |3b|: last arm binaries i downloaded are at http://3bb.cc/tmp/sbcl/ if that helps
2015-07-17T11:44:05Z mk2: stassats: thanks. i found an old 1.2.0. i just want to try to talk to an esp2866. i guess that will be fine.
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2015-07-17T12:15:14Z stassats: mk2: that's the first arm release
2015-07-17T12:15:28Z stassats: there was a number of fixes and improvements since then
2015-07-17T12:16:41Z mk2: stassats: I need hardfloat. Is |3b|'s version 1.2.1 a lot better?
2015-07-17T12:17:26Z stassats: yes
2015-07-17T12:17:48Z stassats: and there's no soft-float sbcl
2015-07-17T12:19:21Z mk2: Ah thanks for the clarification. I never thought of what armel might mean.
2015-07-17T12:19:55Z stassats: it's just for C ABI
2015-07-17T12:20:26Z stassats: so, if your os is hf or el, you need to get the right package
2015-07-17T12:20:44Z stassats: el might suggest that it's little-endian, really stupid name
2015-07-17T12:20:58Z stassats: which it actually does suggest, but now, is hf not little-endian?
2015-07-17T12:21:08Z stassats: but hf is little-endian, confusing
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2015-07-17T12:39:54Z mk2: |3b|: thanks, i'm using your archive now
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2015-07-17T12:50:50Z stassats: you can build the latest version with it
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2015-07-17T16:30:49Z mk2: that took quite long: build started:  Fri Jul 17 13:41:27 UTC 2015 build finished: Fri Jul 17 15:00:58 UTC 2015,  real    79m34.789s
2015-07-17T16:33:00Z nyef: Just less than an hour and twenty minutes? Dare I ask what you were building on?
2015-07-17T16:34:48Z stassats: still faster than clasp
2015-07-17T16:34:53Z stassats: (sorry drmeister)
2015-07-17T16:36:02Z drmeister: I understand
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2015-07-17T19:03:29Z akkad: Sourceforge is adding a T to their name
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2015-07-17T19:12:58Z nyef: Sourcefarce?
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2015-07-17T19:13:24Z akkad: T$
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2015-07-17T19:20:01Z foom: So sourceforge is single-homed, eh?
2015-07-17T19:20:47Z foom: https://twitter.com/sfnet_ops is pretty uninspiring.
2015-07-17T19:21:14Z foom: "There's instability and frequent 500 errors on the #SourceForge site currently. We're working on getting this fixed ASAP." seems to be twitted every month or more.
2015-07-17T19:25:56Z foom: looks like github provides site hosting.
2015-07-17T19:26:12Z foom: https://pages.github.com/
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2015-07-17T19:46:14Z stassats: if anything, cl.net is the place to move
2015-07-17T19:46:47Z dmitigr: stassats: you're talking about moving host for SBCL?
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2015-07-17T19:50:33Z foom: stassats: really? cl.net has uptime issues too
2015-07-17T19:51:16Z stassats: foom: github doesn't?
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2015-07-17T19:52:52Z foom: Github can afford to have better infrastructure and ops staff than cl.net.
2015-07-17T19:54:18Z stassats: how much infrastructure does sbcl need?
2015-07-17T19:56:40Z foom: Need? Not much. What would be good? A webhost which is not only a single machine, so that when it crashes the website doesn't go down.
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2015-07-17T19:57:34Z dmitigr: foom: yes, unavailability of sbcl.org is very annoying.
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2015-07-17T20:16:06Z Shinmera: Why not both? Could host sbcl.org on cl.net and have a mirror on github-pages (sbcl.github.io)
2015-07-17T20:19:13Z jackdaniel: (incf *)
2015-07-17T20:21:01Z foom: *Why* both, when you can host sbcl on github-pages (sbcl.org)
2015-07-17T20:21:41Z Shinmera: Because the likelyhood of both being down at the same time is a lot slimmer.
2015-07-17T20:21:52Z jackdaniel: cl.net seems appropriate for cl projects, while github is for replication reasons
2015-07-17T20:21:53Z Shinmera: Whereas just recently github was down.
2015-07-17T20:23:07Z dmitigr: Shinmera: github maybe blocked any time when something stupid upload the info e.g. about suicide.
2015-07-17T20:23:18Z dmitigr: Shinmera: at least in Russia
2015-07-17T20:28:52Z dmitigr: so if you guys go with Github, please, consider some mirrors!
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2015-07-17T20:29:59Z foom: Clearly nobody in russia needs to do any software development, so that seems fine.
2015-07-17T20:30:51Z jackdaniel: foom: ?
2015-07-17T20:31:15Z dmitigr: foom: I'm from Russia. And I'm happy because I'm Russian :-)
2015-07-17T20:31:26Z dmitigr: foom: and I'm creating software.
2015-07-17T20:31:46Z foom: i'm just saying, sbcl being on github is the least of the problems russian devs have if they decide blocking github is a great idea.
2015-07-17T20:31:47Z dmitigr: foom: any questions?
2015-07-17T20:33:21Z foom: All the governments should stop being stupid. mine included (wtf @ restarting the mandated encryption backdoor debate)
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2015-07-17T20:34:19Z PuercoPop: the mailing list couldn't be handled by gh, it could be by cl.net.
2015-07-17T20:34:48Z jackdaniel: cl.net is most viable imho, while github might be mirror for source
2015-07-17T20:34:59Z dmitigr: jackdaniel: +1
2015-07-17T20:36:34Z dmitigr: I can place a mirror on my hosting.
2015-07-17T20:36:38Z foom: mailing list hosting is more complex, there are downsides to using, say, google groups lists.
2015-07-17T20:36:50Z foom: website hosting is 100% boring, there's no reason to do it yourself
2015-07-17T20:38:49Z dmitigr: foom: I believe that in case of SBCL it would'nt be boring
2015-07-17T20:39:29Z dmitigr: foom: sbcl.org - is a very trivial site
2015-07-17T20:40:11Z jackdaniel: (> decentralization centralization) ; -> T
2015-07-17T20:41:10Z dmitigr: jackdaniel: yeah, many mirrors are better
2015-07-17T20:42:51Z Xof: because there is no way in which out-of-date or untrusted mirrors can cause problems
2015-07-17T20:43:07Z foom: Really not. Running on a single hosting system (made up of multiple internal mirrors) with good reliability, and being able to trivially re-point to another hosting provider after, say, cloning the git repo somewhere else is better.
2015-07-17T20:43:23Z Xof: funnily enough, I am reminded of something dan_b said a week ago
2015-07-17T20:44:10Z Xof: "bother, the central server that runs my decentralized version control system is down"
2015-07-17T20:46:19Z stassats: what's a day or two of downtime?
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2015-07-17T20:57:37Z dmitigr: stassats: I'm unable to load sbcl.org since yesterday
2015-07-17T20:58:19Z stassats: didn't you switch to c++ anyway?
2015-07-17T20:59:19Z dmitigr: stassats: I know C++ well already. So "switch" is not for me :)
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2015-07-17T20:59:32Z dmitigr: stassats: let forget it
2015-07-17T21:04:11Z dmitigr: stassats: keep in mind that I can maintain a mirror.
2015-07-17T21:04:53Z stassats: keep in mind i don't want to move from sourceforge
2015-07-17T21:06:27Z dmitigr: stassats: you don't need move. But right now users cannot open sbcl.org, so, mirrors must be.
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2015-07-17T23:10:07Z scymtym_: just to make sure: nut just sf web, but also ssh access to the repository is unavailable for all of you as well, right?
2015-07-17T23:10:48Z nyef: I haven't even bothered trying, TBH.
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2015-07-18T00:50:25Z Bike: The dumper code knows about four kinds of load-time ir2 constants, but the comment in vop.lisp only explains two (one of which the dumper doesn't know). i assume the comment is inadequate, so uh... what's in the cdr of a :fdefinition or :known-fun constant?
2015-07-18T00:50:49Z Bike: it looks like it should be a "name" in the loader, so probably a symbol?
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2015-07-18T00:54:06Z nyef: (setf function) ?
2015-07-18T00:54:43Z Bike: true...
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2015-07-18T13:16:52Z hlavaty: git.code.sf.net is down, any idea what the situation is with the official repo?
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2015-07-18T13:23:34Z scymtym_: hlavaty: it is not usable as far as i can tell (neither via http nor via ssh)
2015-07-18T13:24:45Z hlavaty: unfortunatelly
2015-07-18T13:25:36Z stassats: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/ has the latest commits
2015-07-18T13:25:44Z hlavaty: thanks!
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2015-07-18T22:31:18Z cmack: Has moving away from sourceforge.net been discussed lately? If not, I would say (as only a user of sbcl) I am very not happy with their service nor their reputation of late.
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2015-07-18T23:41:52Z pkhuong: it has.
2015-07-18T23:42:07Z pkhuong: (that's about as much as I have the energy to follow)
2015-07-18T23:42:10Z stassats: mostly by users
2015-07-18T23:43:10Z stassats: i guess because it's easier to give recommendations and not actually performing the move
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2015-07-19T00:41:03Z fe[nl]ix: stassats: how would you perform the move if the servers are down ?
2015-07-19T00:41:39Z fe[nl]ix: you could get the pages back from archive.org
2015-07-19T00:49:36Z stassats: pages are in git repo
2015-07-19T00:50:48Z stassats: binaries are at e.g. http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/download.sourceforge.net/pub/sourceforge/s/sb/sbcl/sbcl/
2015-07-19T00:54:29Z fe[nl]ix: is the mailing list subscriber list backed up too ?
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2015-07-19T01:13:46Z nyef: Are we seriously looking at leaving sourceforge?
2015-07-19T01:14:14Z stassats: i'm not looking, unless it will be down forever
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2015-07-19T14:48:44Z lispguy1: sbcl.org still suck
2015-07-19T14:48:50Z lispguy1: wtf
2015-07-19T14:49:52Z lispguy1: thanks to Google's cache
2015-07-19T14:50:13Z stassats: what do you need from there?
2015-07-19T14:50:14Z lispguy1: you guys does not care about users
2015-07-19T14:50:37Z lispguy1: stassats: I just wanted to check the arch table
2015-07-19T14:54:12Z stassats: most users are not worth caring about
2015-07-19T14:55:44Z lispguy1: stassats: who are you to judge?
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2015-07-19T14:57:41Z Shinmera: He's a person like everyone else. Everyone can decide for themselves whom to care about and whom not to.
2015-07-19T14:59:10Z jackdaniel: and a person who put a lot of effort to make sbcl better for many users, even if they think it comes without without a price
2015-07-19T15:01:54Z lispguy1: Shinmera: but SBCL's is not belongs to the concrete person
2015-07-19T15:02:11Z Shinmera: lispguy1: So?
2015-07-19T15:05:47Z lispguy1: Shinmera: so that person cannot judge about care
2015-07-19T15:06:03Z stassats: but you can?
2015-07-19T15:06:49Z lispguy1: jackdaniel: he did, but I don't undetstand for who? for himself?
2015-07-19T15:07:25Z stassats: this is a silly discussion, please stop
2015-07-19T15:08:34Z lispguy1: stassats: the speach about sbcl maintainers, not about me. I'm just a user
2015-07-19T15:09:21Z lispguy1: stassats: even if you are best of the best hacker but don't care about users, you efforts are nothing
2015-07-19T15:09:31Z lispguy1: just for fun
2015-07-19T15:11:37Z Shinmera: If you're here to preach, please leave.
2015-07-19T15:12:23Z stassats: you can write a blog post about how bad sbcl is as a consolation
2015-07-19T15:12:42Z lispguy1: Shinmera: please start sbcl.org
2015-07-19T15:12:59Z lispguy1: stassats: it's better to fork from sbcl
2015-07-19T15:13:20Z lispguy1: stassats: like sbcl forked from cmucl
2015-07-19T15:13:29Z Shinmera: Then go do it already and stop with this constant whining.
2015-07-19T15:13:30Z stassats: go ahead, if that's what will take for you to leave #sbcl
2015-07-19T15:16:01Z lispguy1: "leave", "leave", "don't care", "don't need" etc etc -- thats all explain why lisp community so unfriendly
2015-07-19T15:16:28Z lispguy1: sad but true
2015-07-19T15:16:38Z Shinmera: You are the problem.
2015-07-19T15:16:46Z Shinmera: Now leave.
2015-07-19T15:19:53Z scymtym_: lispguy1: re-read your first four statements in this exchange and think about "unfriendly" again
2015-07-19T15:58:15Z lispguy1: all of my first four statements are true facts
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2015-07-19T20:32:27Z eudoxia: so, now that SF jumped the shark, have you folks thought about moving all the SBCL stuff to GitHub
2015-07-19T20:32:56Z Xof: no
2015-07-19T20:33:03Z Xof: nothing of the sort has ever crossed anyone's mind
2015-07-19T20:33:18Z Xof: thank you for suggesting it!
2015-07-19T20:33:49Z eudoxia: why not? too many issues and mailing lists on SF to move to GH?
2015-07-19T20:34:18Z Xof: no, sorry, I'm being sarcastic.  It's been basically the only topic of conversation here for the last four days
2015-07-19T20:34:52Z aeth: SBCL's on Github (as a mirror). https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl
2015-07-19T20:34:53Z heddwch: It's okay; eventually it'll come back up, and we'll keep pretending subversion is awesome
2015-07-19T20:35:21Z eudoxia: well if you do decide to move, I can make GitHub Pages project website for sbcl.org. something really ~cool~ and ~startuppy~ and ~modern~
2015-07-19T20:35:22Z Xof: the only thing that sourceforge actually truly provides us with is a set of mailing lists
2015-07-19T20:35:34Z aeth: if the mirror's official I guess most of the work would be the issues and mailing lists
2015-07-19T20:35:36Z heddwch: and the website, and the source repo...
2015-07-19T20:35:43Z Xof: why does making a cool and startuppy and modern website depend on a move to github?
2015-07-19T20:36:01Z eudoxia: Xof: yeah, I'm surprised GH doesn't offer something like a chatroom or something
2015-07-19T20:36:04Z aeth: Xof: because it's not cool unless it's a .io and Github pages are .io
2015-07-19T20:36:07Z Xof: heddwch: the source repo is mirrored in about a billion places
2015-07-19T20:36:12Z aeth: (I'm not being serious.)
2015-07-19T20:36:14Z Xof: the website is trivial to move
2015-07-19T20:36:21Z heddwch: I know it's mirrored. I keep my own mirror (thankfully)
2015-07-19T20:36:26Z Xof: the issues aren't hosted on sourceforge at all
2015-07-19T20:36:39Z eudoxia: Xof: with github pages you make a repo called sbcl.github.io, and on every commit the website is rebuilt and automatically updated
2015-07-19T20:36:43Z Xof: the download hosting is marginally helpfully hosted at sourceforge
2015-07-19T20:37:10Z Xof: ... and this is why I was being sarcastic earlier
2015-07-19T20:37:31Z stassats: sourceforge will be up and running in a day or two
2015-07-19T20:37:45Z heddwch: ^ and then we'll keep pretending it and subversion are awesome :)
2015-07-19T20:38:00Z stassats: i'd hate to deal with "let's move from github" next it will crash
2015-07-19T20:38:05Z Xof: the last time sourceforge had a significant outage, there was about the same pressure from people who are not maintainers to move everything to the flavour of the month
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2015-07-19T20:38:14Z Xof: I can't remember what it was; maybe google code or bitbucket
2015-07-19T20:38:17Z Xof: or cl.net
2015-07-19T20:38:21Z stassats: files are already up: http://sourceforge.net/projects/sbcl/files/?source=directory
2015-07-19T20:38:31Z Xof: whatever service it was then had a longer outage almost immediately afterwards
2015-07-19T20:38:48Z Xof: so frankly I'm glad I was lazy then and am planning to continue to be lazy
2015-07-19T20:38:58Z heddwch: Sourceforge is just not a good option any more, considering they've decided injecting (mal/ad)ware of their own accord is a good idea, and apparently have an infrastructure that can corrupt all filesystems simultaneously.
2015-07-19T20:39:26Z Xof: if someone, independent of where things are hosted, wants to do some work to make a nice website, or wants to fund someone else's work, great!
2015-07-19T20:40:00Z stassats: there was no malware injected into sbcl
2015-07-19T20:40:11Z stassats: and they did recant anway
2015-07-19T20:40:21Z Xof: heddwch: on the contrary, it is an excellent idea.  It consumes none of my (precious) resources, unlike basically every other option
2015-07-19T20:40:24Z heddwch: ah, that's good. I definitely trust them now.
2015-07-19T20:40:49Z stassats: heddwch: do you trust me?
2015-07-19T20:40:53Z heddwch: ...your precious resources are spending their time defending project choices on IRC right now.
2015-07-19T20:41:01Z heddwch: stassats: Why would I?
2015-07-19T20:41:16Z stassats: heddwch: i can inject countless amount of malware into sbcl binaries
2015-07-19T20:41:54Z heddwch: stassats: That's a nice fallacy. That's very different from you having already done so, and we'll just trust you because you stopped when asked.
2015-07-19T20:42:25Z Xof: heddwch: ok, please stop wasting time
2015-07-19T20:42:56Z Xof: put up (i.e. do some non-trivial amount of work that makes the choices you want me to make easier) or shut up
2015-07-19T20:43:02Z aeth: (format nil "~{ ~}" foo) ; foo isn't nil
2015-07-19T20:43:24Z aeth: enjoy an infinite loop on SBCL until you run out of space
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2015-07-19T20:43:34Z heddwch: A lot of it has already been done, like the mirrors you mentioned, it's just the problem of the canonical repo not being one of those mirrors.
2015-07-19T20:43:54Z stassats: aeth: that's how format works
2015-07-19T20:43:56Z aeth: s/space/heap/
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2015-07-19T20:44:32Z heddwch: The tools are there, you deciding to use them isn't something I can do some non-trivial amount of work on.
2015-07-19T20:44:44Z aeth: well this bug in particular is dangerous because you can do this: (format nil "~{a ~}" (list 1 2 3)) and accidentally forget to escape the a
2015-07-19T20:44:49Z stassats: when are all those people when we ask to test sbcl during the freezing period?
2015-07-19T20:44:55Z aeth: stassats: not every implementation fails there
2015-07-19T20:45:13Z stassats: aeth: don't shoot your foot off, it's painful
2015-07-19T20:45:30Z Xof: stassats: "should be a list"
2015-07-19T20:45:32Z aeth: clisp doesn't fail on the code I gave unless foo is a list.
2015-07-19T20:45:51Z aeth: obviously it's still going to be an infinite loop
2015-07-19T20:46:01Z heddwch: stassats: Usually, I'm having to add expected failure cases to get it to build because my platform isn't a priority. I'd happily try to contribute, but you guys use subversion. I'm not a big fan of trying to submit patches to a mailing list post-2000
2015-07-19T20:46:25Z Xof: we could also definitely issue a style warning on ~{ ~} with no arg-consuming directives inside
2015-07-19T20:46:50Z Xof: "you guys use subversion"
2015-07-19T20:47:02Z aeth: right, I think that should be a warning because this will mostly show up if it's e.g. ~{a ~} instead of ~{~a ~}
2015-07-19T20:47:04Z stassats: that happened like, never?
2015-07-19T20:47:22Z Xof: shh, it's more important that heddwch feels validated in his choice of channel to abuse
2015-07-19T20:47:50Z heddwch: lol, no, if I'm wrong, I'd enjoy being corrected. Are you using the SF git hosting now?
2015-07-19T20:47:51Z stassats: you can still construct a valid format string which will loop forever
2015-07-19T20:48:49Z stassats: we do not say anything during (loop collect 10) do we?
2015-07-19T20:49:11Z Xof: stassats: I'd take a patch that caught the simple, easy to make mistakes
2015-07-19T20:49:19Z Xof: particularly those that can arise from a one-character typo
2015-07-19T20:50:17Z Xof: I've unfortunately spent too long on IRC to spend any time on development, though :-(
2015-07-19T20:51:46Z aeth: so I guess there's two different things found by my code example. (1) it should be a list, not not-nil, and (2) you probably wanted to put something inside the ~{ ~} e.g. ~{a ~} probably was supposed to be ~{~a ~}
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2015-07-19T20:52:11Z aeth: (1) is what clisp catches here that sbcl doesn't in this particular example.
2015-07-19T20:52:31Z aeth: (although to be fair it doesn't error on nil, it just doesn't run it and so avoids the infinite loop.)
2015-07-19T20:53:09Z stassats: i don't consider that to be an issue, so you'll have to make the changes yourself
2015-07-19T20:53:31Z fe[nl]ix: Xof: it's little known, but alioth.debian.org offers full hosting for free software projects
2015-07-19T20:53:50Z stassats: but, the not list change is trivial, NULL should be just changed to ENDP
2015-07-19T20:54:24Z fe[nl]ix: it uses a fork of the sourceforge platform
2015-07-19T20:54:28Z Xof: fe[nl]ix: debian I would trust rather more than any of the alternatives
2015-07-19T20:54:47Z fe[nl]ix: that's why I proposed it :)
2015-07-19T20:55:10Z aeth: stassats: what I guess is happening is that even though (format nil "~{ ~}" 1) is invalid, sbcl checks during the evaluation of the ~A/~D/etc. while clisp checks before evaluating ~{ ~}
2015-07-19T20:55:16Z Xof: but, I would expect sourceforge to continue to be marginally more convenient, and the day it dies properly we move elsewhere
2015-07-19T20:55:19Z Xof: hey ho
2015-07-19T20:55:35Z aeth: Because both fail on "~{~a ~}" when the argument is 1 (not a list) but only clisp fails on "~{ ~}"
2015-07-19T20:55:43Z stassats: aeth: just changing NULL to ENDP will solve this
2015-07-19T20:55:46Z fe[nl]ix: Xof: ok, just keep that in mind
2015-07-19T20:58:40Z stassats: ok, while ENDP is trivial, it doesn't provide a proper formatty error message, just "The value 1 is not of type LIST."
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2015-07-19T21:00:56Z aeth: Are we talking about target-format.lisp starting at line 1029, the iteration section of what I'm guessing is FORMAT?
2015-07-19T21:00:59Z aeth: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/master/src/code/target-format.lisp#L1029
2015-07-19T21:01:34Z stassats: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/master/src/code/late-format.lisp#L995 as well
2015-07-19T21:01:59Z aeth: oh that's late-format.lisp
2015-07-19T21:02:05Z aeth: no wonder I was confused
2015-07-19T21:02:06Z stassats: it's both
2015-07-19T21:02:26Z stassats: protip: slime has M-x slime-format-string-expand
2015-07-19T21:03:38Z aeth: that's unfortunate, it doesn't seem to work for the SLIME REPL
2015-07-19T21:03:45Z stassats: what doesn't?
2015-07-19T21:04:20Z aeth: M-x slime-format-string-expand just says "No string at this point"
2015-07-19T21:04:26Z aeth: oh, it must be done at the ", not in the string
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2015-07-19T21:05:14Z stassats: right
2015-07-19T21:11:43Z stassats: the failure mode of slime-format-string-expand was bad, i just fixed it
2015-07-19T21:12:11Z stassats: aeth: instead of "no string at this point" it will no ask you to enter a string in the minibuffer
2015-07-19T21:12:44Z stassats: it will also stop crashing with "char-syntax: Wrong type argument: arrayp, nil" when outside of any s-exps
2015-07-19T21:14:39Z stassats: i can fix it to work inside a string, but it would need to depend on an optional contrib
2015-07-19T21:15:12Z stassats: (which would mean that i can't fix it)
2015-07-19T21:16:07Z stassats: aeth: so, ENDP will work for now, but eventually i would want all format errors to include context
2015-07-19T21:17:00Z stassats: i.e. (format nil "~vr" 'a 10) should be "bad argument ...." and not "The value A is not of type (INTEGER 2 36)."
2015-07-19T21:17:20Z stassats: with a ^ positioned underneath v
2015-07-19T21:19:22Z stassats: like it does in (format nil "~}")
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2015-07-19T21:20:27Z stassats: oh, and you guys forgot that ~{~} is a valid thing
2015-07-19T21:20:30Z davidurman: hi! how to obtain access to repo for direct committing?
2015-07-19T21:20:39Z stassats: (format nil "~{~}" "~a" '(1))
2015-07-19T21:20:53Z stassats: aeth: cancel the press
2015-07-19T21:21:32Z aeth: stassats: (format nil "~{ ~}" "~a" '(1))
2015-07-19T21:21:34Z aeth: stassats: keep the press
2015-07-19T21:21:37Z davidurman: and when you guys move from that obsolete service (sf)?
2015-07-19T21:21:51Z davidurman: i can't download sbcl :(
2015-07-19T21:21:51Z aeth: the issue has been with ~{ ~} and any ~{ ~} without something like ~a in it.
2015-07-19T21:21:55Z aeth: ~{~} for some reason is different
2015-07-19T21:22:09Z stassats: ~{~} is defined like ~?
2015-07-19T21:22:12Z stassats: (almost)
2015-07-19T21:22:31Z stassats: davidurman: in the year 2525
2015-07-19T21:22:52Z aeth: davidurman: whenever someone writes a replacement to git in Lisp probably :-p
2015-07-19T21:22:54Z stassats: davidurman: download from http://sourceforge.net/projects/sbcl/files/?source=directory
2015-07-19T21:23:20Z davidurman: stassats: thank you
2015-07-19T21:23:22Z aeth: git can't run on computers that are 100% lisp
2015-07-19T21:23:35Z davidurman: stassats: i hope it without malware
2015-07-19T21:23:38Z stassats: davidurman: and a git mirror https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/
2015-07-19T21:23:59Z stassats: davidurman: it's with a very special selection of malware from our local malware experts
2015-07-19T21:24:10Z stassats: organically grown, did i mention?
2015-07-19T21:24:10Z davidurman: stassats: it it mirror (github) is indended for pull requests?
2015-07-19T21:24:17Z stassats: davidurman: it's not
2015-07-19T21:24:37Z aeth: it looks like they've accepted 3 of 10 pull requests though
2015-07-19T21:24:50Z aeth: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/pulls
2015-07-19T21:24:55Z davidurman: stassats: can you please add the note to readme to not confusing users since there are 7 pull requests opened
2015-07-19T21:25:26Z aeth: especially since some pull requests got accepted
2015-07-19T21:25:34Z stassats: can't add it to readme
2015-07-19T21:25:42Z davidurman: stassats: why?
2015-07-19T21:25:45Z stassats: because readme isn't unique to github
2015-07-19T21:25:50Z stassats: and nobody will read it
2015-07-19T21:26:01Z davidurman: create readme.md then
2015-07-19T21:26:14Z davidurman: why confusing users?
2015-07-19T21:26:17Z stassats: nobody seem to read "Mirror of Steel Bank Common Lisp (SBCL)'s official repository", and it's the first thing
2015-07-19T21:26:17Z aeth: stassats: the readme can just say "to contribute, do X"
2015-07-19T21:26:36Z aeth: or (when (contributing) (x))
2015-07-19T21:26:47Z scymtym_: aeth: the HACKING file explains that in some detail
2015-07-19T21:27:00Z stassats: aeth: well, i know users, believe me
2015-07-19T21:27:04Z stassats: nobody reads anything
2015-07-19T21:27:08Z davidurman: or (let ((move (from 'sf))))
2015-07-19T21:27:11Z aeth: stassats: ah it does
2015-07-19T21:27:28Z aeth: stassats: maybe you should mention HACKING in the readme, people do like to read the readme if they go in through sites like github
2015-07-19T21:27:28Z davidurman: stassats: so delete readme at all
2015-07-19T21:27:37Z aeth: Quite a few modern sites have the readme prominently featured, not just github
2015-07-19T21:27:46Z stassats: github has nothing to do with SBCL development
2015-07-19T21:28:00Z davidurman: omg
2015-07-19T21:28:16Z davidurman: is it time to move to ccl?
2015-07-19T21:28:22Z stassats: yes, please
2015-07-19T21:28:35Z stassats: we're overflowing with demand from users
2015-07-19T21:28:42Z davidurman: stassats is a new theo de raadt
2015-07-19T21:29:07Z aeth: you can fork the github mirror of sbcl by clicking the fork icon in the upper right: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/
2015-07-19T21:29:14Z davidurman: thanks
2015-07-19T21:29:20Z davidurman: well, i have to go
2015-07-19T21:29:23Z davidurman: have a nice dat
2015-07-19T21:29:25Z davidurman: y
2015-07-19T21:29:25Z aeth: and now you have your own common lisp version :-p
2015-07-19T21:29:49Z davidurman: aeth: it's better to use ccl
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2015-07-19T21:30:04Z stassats: then why are you still here?
2015-07-19T21:30:10Z stassats: just in time
2015-07-19T21:35:15Z stassats: found https://nopullrequests.appspot.com/
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2015-07-19T21:39:20Z stassats: enabled it for sbcl
2015-07-19T21:41:03Z scymtym_: will it only reject new pull requests or also close exiting ones?
2015-07-19T21:41:11Z stassats: only the new ones
2015-07-19T21:42:01Z stassats: i was going to close the existing ones with "... you can report bugs to sbcl-devel@sourceforge.net" but that wouldn't be quite right at the moment
2015-07-19T21:43:33Z stassats: and i'm intrigued by https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/pull/10
2015-07-19T21:43:36Z scymtym_: such a message would definitely be better than just closing them. especially the well written ones that probably result from a lot of effort
2015-07-19T21:44:17Z stassats: i thought this thing will have a customizable message.
2015-07-19T21:45:03Z stassats: but it doesn't, ok, disabled it
2015-07-19T21:45:33Z stassats: if i close all issues and create a new pull request with some red labels, maybe it'll help
2015-07-19T21:45:42Z stassats: (i know it won't, but worth a try)
2015-07-19T21:50:33Z scymtym_: maybe we can just commit the useful ones, close them and leave a message explaining how to contribute?
2015-07-19T21:51:30Z stassats: only the one above is interesting me
2015-07-19T21:53:19Z scymtym_: i think the "infinite error" one and the ":report nil" one could also be useful, but checking that also takes time
2015-07-19T21:54:21Z stassats: they may be useful, but just don't intrigue me
2015-07-19T21:54:45Z stassats: C-c C-c on windows is something that's been bothering me for some time
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2015-07-19T23:50:52Z akkad: job control on sbcl? how?
2015-07-19T23:51:13Z stassats: akkad: what exactly do you mean by that?
2015-07-20T00:00:06Z akkad: management of processes that are running in the repl
2015-07-20T00:01:01Z akkad: e.g. hunchentoot running and you want to terminate it
2015-07-20T00:05:33Z stassats: hunchentoot doesn't run at the repl
2015-07-20T00:07:39Z akkad: nvm
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2015-07-20T00:08:03Z stassats: and it's specific to hunchentoot how you start or stop
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2015-07-20T06:29:25Z pchrist: hm, sourceforge still down, wtf
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2015-07-20T08:47:19Z p_l: pchrist: there's strong suspicion they hosed their storage system and they had laid off the last people who knew its quirks years ago
2015-07-20T08:56:02Z flip214: sf sbcl downloads works for me
2015-07-20T08:59:57Z Cymew: git pull does not
2015-07-20T09:00:22Z Cymew: git.code.sf.net[0: 216.34.181.155]: errno=Connection refused as it has been for ages now...
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2015-07-20T09:15:28Z flip214: can't even find a git link on http://sourceforge.net/projects/sbcl/
2015-07-20T09:22:36Z Cymew: url = git://git.code.sf.net/p/sbcl/sbcl is what I have in my repo copy
2015-07-20T09:24:11Z christoph_debian: jub
2015-07-20T09:29:23Z flip214: okay, that's broken for me too.
2015-07-20T09:29:28Z flip214: github/sbcl/sbcl ...
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2015-07-20T14:48:19Z names: ccl-logbot dustinm` psy_ Adlai PuercoPop brucem foom pchrist_ nicdev` edgar-rft aeth oleo cmack nyef stassats eudoxia DGASAU jlarocco karswell heddwch frankS2 Ettore Cymew angavrilov sdemarre drmeister akkad kanru Quadrescence christoph_debian Bike _iwc jdz fikusz zacts selat irsol pkhuong minion alchemis7 mood loke igajsin DeadTrickster fe[nl]ix scymtym_ abbe jsnell bsmr jackdaniel dsp_ tmh_ yauz antoszka joshe ferada flip214 p_l snafuchs jackc- carvite
2015-07-20T14:48:19Z names: Blkt_ Intensity specbot rj-code psilord reb` Xach clop ivan4th schjetne jibanes luis salva Xof
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2015-07-21T10:46:31Z freehck: hello
2015-07-21T10:46:54Z freehck: i wonder whether SBCL supports system threads?
2015-07-21T10:46:59Z freehck: Or only green ones?
2015-07-21T10:47:05Z stassats: it sure does
2015-07-21T10:47:08Z jackdaniel: it supports system threads
2015-07-21T10:48:11Z freehck: cool. And does GC work in a separate thread?
2015-07-21T10:48:31Z stassats: no
2015-07-21T10:48:54Z freehck: But is there some implementations of GS working in a separate thread?
2015-07-21T10:49:06Z stassats: don't think so
2015-07-21T10:49:28Z stassats: why is that important for you?
2015-07-21T10:49:59Z freehck: I was told to that Java's GC is so efficient because it works in a separate thread, and it sounds sane.
2015-07-21T10:50:22Z stassats: having concurrent GC is not really efficient
2015-07-21T10:50:35Z flip214: freehck: sbcl is very efficient because whenever possible it won't even allocate memory ;)
2015-07-21T10:50:38Z stassats: it may have lower pauses, but overall throughput will be reduced
2015-07-21T10:50:42Z freehck: I know that OCaml does not have native threads at all, Racket Scheme have some similar problems, and now I wonder the situation of SBCL.
2015-07-21T10:53:11Z freehck: stassats: When I have to run GC in Racket Scheme code explicitly I can see some real pauses in runtime. I think if it were in a separate thread it would be better and faster, isn't it?
2015-07-21T10:53:50Z stassats: why do you run it explicitly?
2015-07-21T10:54:29Z |3b|: it could be, depending on how well it were implemented and your criteria for 'better' and 'faster'. no guarantee it actually would be though
2015-07-21T10:54:35Z stassats: concurrent is not universally better
2015-07-21T10:54:40Z stassats: it is better in some cases, worse in others
2015-07-21T10:54:44Z stassats: concurrent GC
2015-07-21T10:54:50Z |3b|: if you like java's GC, you could try ABCL though
2015-07-21T10:55:01Z stassats: and Java has more than one GC
2015-07-21T10:55:08Z freehck: Because our code have very long AST branches and we have faced to the problem our product "eats" too much memory.
2015-07-21T10:55:56Z stassats: but ABCL is slower overall, so a Java GC wouldn't help it
2015-07-21T10:57:11Z freehck: btw, to be more precise, I don't like Java and JVM at all. I've just meet with some new information about Java. And now trying to understand if it is a good technology to look at.
2015-07-21T10:58:28Z freehck: The argument was: Java provides a very efficient ways to parallel your algorithms, and this provides a higher level of performance on multi-processor systems.
2015-07-21T10:58:44Z freehck: One of examples was GC in a separate threads.
2015-07-21T10:59:21Z stassats: which can actually reduce performance, you have a choice of different GCs in Java, suited for different tasks
2015-07-21T10:59:30Z freehck: What should I read about principles of working of GCs to understand all the pros and contras of concurrency in this question?
2015-07-21T10:59:44Z stassats: minion: bigsurv.ps?
2015-07-21T10:59:45Z minion: Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``bigsurv.ps''.
2015-07-21T10:59:47Z stassats: minion: bigsurv?
2015-07-21T10:59:47Z minion: Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``bigsurv''.
2015-07-21T11:00:22Z flip214: ftp://ftp.cs.utexas.edu/pub/garbage/bigsurv.ps ?
2015-07-21T11:00:34Z stassats: start with that
2015-07-21T11:00:46Z stassats: even though it says uniprocessor
2015-07-21T11:02:35Z freehck: thank you, stassats
2015-07-21T11:04:34Z stassats: and SBCL has a generational collect
2015-07-21T11:07:32Z stassats: what would be interesting for SBCL is a GC that does collection in parallel
2015-07-21T11:07:54Z stassats: not concurrently with the program, but collection itself
2015-07-21T11:32:11Z freehck: stassats: this type of collection supposes GC to run in a separate thread?
2015-07-21T11:32:27Z stassats: no
2015-07-21T11:33:21Z freehck: stassats: but how it would be parallel so?
2015-07-21T11:33:42Z freehck: stassats: *but how would it be parallel so?
2015-07-21T11:33:47Z stassats: do work on multiple  CPU threads
2015-07-21T11:36:14Z freehck: Hm... I'm sorry. But what are CPU threads? I thought about threads as parts of process management, like a child "processes" that shares the same memory area with the parent ones.
2015-07-21T11:36:47Z stassats: there's no point in such threads if there aren't backed by CPU threads
2015-07-21T11:36:59Z stassats: for performance
2015-07-21T11:37:31Z freehck: So what do you mean when say "CPU thread"?
2015-07-21T11:37:49Z stassats: look it up
2015-07-21T11:38:27Z |3b|: freehck: currently sbcl GC runs on 1 thread = 1 core, suggestion is to run GC on all (or at least more than 1) cores at once
2015-07-21T11:38:48Z |3b|: it would still block other lisp code run running, just hopefully give shorter pauses
2015-07-21T11:39:00Z |3b|: (assuming i'm understanding correctly)
2015-07-21T11:39:25Z stassats: yes
2015-07-21T11:40:16Z |3b|: as opposed to the idea of running GC in its own thread at the same time as normal lisp code is running, which could (but doesn't guarantee) reduce or eliminate GC pauses as well, but might add other overhead and is probably harder
2015-07-21T11:40:23Z stassats: assuming that garbage collection is bandwidth limited, you can't saturate the whole bandwidth with just one thread
2015-07-21T11:42:09Z freehck: |3b|: do i understand correctly, that the difference is: GC should be evaluated with another CPU core, but simultaneously with the running code?
2015-07-21T11:42:25Z stassats: no
2015-07-21T11:43:20Z freehck: Well, how can something be run on another CPU core if it's not another system thread? Cannot understand.
2015-07-21T11:55:58Z |3b|: things are run on other cores by running them in other threads
2015-07-21T11:56:53Z |3b|: 2 ideas are being discussed, one is to run GC on multiple cores/threads while lisp code is stopped, other is to run GC constantly in a separate thread while lisp code is running
2015-07-21T11:58:30Z |3b|: separate GC thread running at same time as lisp code could still have benefit while both are running on same cpu core (depending on your definition of benefit)
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2015-07-21T12:14:16Z scymtym_: freehck: check sbcl-devel mailing list archive for threads "Feasibility of a concurrent GC for SBCL" and "Mark-and-sweep gencgc enhancement for x86-64". the first thread is about the subject of this discussion (somebody has apparently already tried to parallelize SBCL's gc - with negative results). the second thread is an example of an SBCL-specific idea for a gc-related performance improvement.
2015-07-21T12:14:52Z scymtym_: stassats: could you test a patch for
2015-07-21T12:14:54Z scymtym_: lp 1476447
2015-07-21T12:14:54Z specbot: https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1476447
2015-07-21T12:15:00Z scymtym_: on your windows system for me?
2015-07-21T12:15:07Z stassats: sure
2015-07-21T12:15:34Z scymtym_: thanks
2015-07-21T12:17:38Z scymtym_: i included the current ARRAY-IN-BOUNDS-P patch so we are on the same page for that as well
2015-07-21T12:41:24Z stassats: scymtym_: how do i check that it worked?
2015-07-21T12:42:08Z scymtym_: to really make sure, you probably have to run the installer and check the registry
2015-07-21T12:42:27Z stassats: yes, i'm in regedit, but what's the path?
2015-07-21T12:42:44Z stassats: i can search for sbcl.org
2015-07-21T12:43:26Z scymtym_: if there is no path HKCU/SOFTWAREhttp… i.e. missing \ separator, then it should be fixed
2015-07-21T12:43:47Z stassats: so, is HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\http://www.sbcl.org\Steel Bank Common Lisp 1.2.13.27.master.47-e8db3cc-dirty (X86-64) right?
2015-07-21T12:44:05Z stassats: there's no values inside or anything
2015-07-21T12:44:27Z scymtym_: yes, that's what i expected
2015-07-21T12:45:17Z scymtym_: if we wanted HKCU\SBCL instead of HKCU\http://www.sbcl.org (like suggested in the bug report) or a non-empty value, that would be separate changes
2015-07-21T12:45:31Z scymtym_: do you think any of those would be an improvement?
2015-07-21T12:45:42Z stassats: i don't really care
2015-07-21T12:46:28Z scymtym_: me neither. i would agree with the bug report that Softwarehttp… is wrong, though
2015-07-21T12:47:08Z scymtym_: but that is apparently fixed by the patch, so i guess we're done
2015-07-21T12:47:10Z scymtym_: thank you
2015-07-21T12:47:19Z scymtym_: will commit after the SourceFreeze
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2015-07-21T15:08:57Z Xof: if only I could mail users and developers to encourage them to test, so that I could release as soon as sourceforge comes back up
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2015-07-21T15:15:27Z scymtym_: Xof: will we skip the usual freeze for one week, then release at the end of the month scheme?
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2015-07-21T16:01:09Z Xof: not sure
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2015-07-21T16:26:38Z slyrus: I've been out of the loop, so forgive me if this has been discussed to death, but do we really believe that sourceforge will come back up?
2015-07-21T16:27:37Z scymtym_: slyrus: sourceforge says "dev services" will come back around the middle of week
2015-07-21T16:27:44Z scymtym_: other things are already back
2015-07-21T16:28:57Z slyrus: OK, thanks.
2015-07-21T16:29:29Z slyrus: I'll spare y'all the "we should move to {github/gitlab/common-lisp.net/etc...} rant then.
2015-07-21T16:29:39Z slyrus: missing a " up there
2015-07-21T16:30:48Z scymtym_: very thoughtful, thank you. i think we had enough of that.
2015-07-21T16:33:16Z slyrus: figured as much...
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2015-07-22T01:45:16Z pkhuong: it's amazing how incredibly complicated asdf makes everything
2015-07-22T01:55:29Z nyef: Heh. And people wonder why I don't like using it. (-:
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2015-07-22T10:39:01Z loke: I need to update SBCL
2015-07-22T10:39:08Z loke: Is there a source mirror anywhere?
2015-07-22T10:39:48Z hlavaty: loke: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl
2015-07-22T10:40:05Z loke: hlavaty: Will it be the official one going forward?
2015-07-22T10:40:11Z loke: Oh, and thanks!
2015-07-22T10:40:35Z hlavaty: dont know but it should have the latest commits
2015-07-22T10:40:56Z loke: last commit was 7 days ago according to github
2015-07-22T10:40:59Z loke: good enough for me
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2015-07-22T10:48:00Z jackdaniel: edge which bleeds ;)
2015-07-22T10:50:57Z stassats: loke: it has the latest commits, and it's an official mirror of the official repository
2015-07-22T10:51:10Z loke: stassats: Thanks. That sounds great.
2015-07-22T10:51:33Z loke: I ran into the optimise NIL whatever bug
2015-07-22T10:51:42Z loke: The recent version of sbcl should have it fixed, yes?
2015-07-22T10:52:02Z stassats: i don't remember any "optimize NIL whatever"
2015-07-22T10:52:18Z loke: Argh, I was trying to avoid remembering what the problem was about :-)
2015-07-22T10:52:38Z loke: It's an error that happens sometimes when compilking a fuinction. Something about optimise setting being NIL
2015-07-22T10:52:53Z stassats: yes, that's been fixed
2015-07-22T10:53:09Z stassats: but there was a workaround
2015-07-22T10:56:39Z loke: Yes, I know. But upgrading always feels better.
2015-07-22T10:56:53Z stassats: the latest commit has broken array-in-bounds-p
2015-07-22T10:57:03Z loke: Broken in what way?
2015-07-22T10:57:13Z stassats: for negative values
2015-07-22T10:57:34Z loke: So correct code shouldn't normally suffer from this, yes?
2015-07-22T10:57:49Z stassats: it can
2015-07-22T10:58:00Z stassats: very unlikely
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2015-07-22T17:01:38Z jlarocco_work: does anyone know when sbcl.org will be back online?
2015-07-22T17:01:45Z stassats: no
2015-07-22T17:01:59Z jlarocco_work: ok, thanks
2015-07-22T17:02:25Z stassats: do you want something from there?
2015-07-22T17:02:53Z jlarocco_work: no, not really
2015-07-22T17:03:03Z stassats: files are already up
2015-07-22T17:03:24Z stassats: and there's a git mirror
2015-07-22T17:03:43Z jlarocco_work: i have a script that pulls the latest code from git and rebuilds/reinstalls sbcl, and it's been broken
2015-07-22T17:03:53Z jlarocco_work: but if nobody's committing, I'm not missing anything
2015-07-22T17:03:57Z stassats: well, there's no latest code
2015-07-22T17:04:44Z jlarocco_work: i mainly wanted to make sure it wasn't just me
2015-07-22T17:05:47Z scymtym__: you can direct your script at http://github.com/sbcl/sbcl if you want to run it right now
2015-07-22T17:07:23Z jlarocco_work: thanks,  if I need to install somewhere, I'll grab it from there
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2015-07-22T19:44:51Z scymtym__: the repository may be back - i just pulled successfully
2015-07-22T19:46:42Z stassats: well, push then
2015-07-22T19:47:17Z scymtym__: ok
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2015-07-22T19:48:38Z scymtym__: seems to have worked as well
2015-07-22T19:48:56Z stassats: i got it here
2015-07-22T19:50:38Z stassats: what if we rename HACKING to CONTRIBUTING?
2015-07-22T19:50:50Z scymtym__: sf posted an updated: http://sourceforge.net/blog/sourceforge-infrastructure-and-service-restoration-update-for-722/
2015-07-22T19:51:06Z heddwch: stassats: Why?
2015-07-22T19:51:54Z scymtym__: i think HACKING is the traditional name (e.g. GNU guidelines, iirc), but that may matter less nowadays
2015-07-22T19:54:11Z stassats: does anybody else find "&OPTIONAL and &KEY found in the same lambda list" style-warning to be unnecessary?
2015-07-22T19:56:58Z Xach: It seems in line with the warning about lexical *foo* variables?
2015-07-22T19:57:06Z scymtym__: maybe it would be more useful if it was a reference-condition referencing a place in the documentation explaining why the warning was signaled
2015-07-22T19:57:40Z stassats: Xach: that one saved many times
2015-07-22T19:57:54Z stassats: Xach: this one, only annoyance
2015-07-22T19:58:31Z scymtym__: i can imagine it being useful in cases in which 1) a novice programmer misunderstood how lambda-lists work 2) the intention was to change &optional to &key but &optional was not removed by accident
2015-07-22T19:58:45Z stassats: s/saved/saved me/
2015-07-22T19:59:13Z stassats: there's no "WARNING, you're calling EVAL" is there?
2015-07-22T20:00:45Z Xach: Ok. I guess it is more like "you have no taste".
2015-07-22T20:00:57Z scymtym__: does it prevent compiler smartness (i'm thinking of the "implicitly creating generic function" warning)?
2015-07-22T20:01:09Z scymtym__: (and its justification)
2015-07-22T20:03:17Z scymtym__: if we cannot find a reason other than "you have no taste", maybe we should stop signaling it
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2015-07-22T20:03:44Z stassats: even CLHS has such functions
2015-07-22T20:05:39Z scymtym__: if the presence of &optional it made &key dispatch less efficient (or the other way around), the warning would be justified imo, but i don't know whether that is the case
2015-07-22T20:05:51Z stassats: it does not
2015-07-22T20:06:11Z stassats: &key is slow as hell, can't make it any worse
2015-07-22T20:06:23Z stassats: if you're optimizing and you have &key, you've already lost
2015-07-22T20:06:40Z Xof: clhs has such functions and they give rise to newbie headaches
2015-07-22T20:07:20Z Xof: also &optional and &key combined cause pain for downstream users
2015-07-22T20:07:38Z stassats: "i know what i'm doing, spare me"
2015-07-22T20:07:39Z Xof: this one is definitely a "you have no taste" warning
2015-07-22T20:08:08Z Xof: it should have its own type so that it can be muffled if you know what you're doing
2015-07-22T20:08:28Z Xof: (among the many things I didn't get round to doing)
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2015-07-23T00:15:59Z stassats: http://sbcl.org/ happens to be up
2015-07-23T00:17:09Z Xach: oho
2015-07-23T00:17:19Z akkad: sans sf?
2015-07-23T00:17:19Z Xach: it was a certain Xof who made clx do as it does
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2015-07-23T00:18:43Z stassats: but did he introduce the &key&optional warning?
2015-07-23T00:21:34Z stassats: yep
2015-07-23T00:22:00Z stassats: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/commit/a2e72ddcfa3308ed7eb02c7b1bdfe3120d71b423
2015-07-23T00:22:59Z Xach: two sides of the coin
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2015-07-23T00:23:58Z stassats: and there's an excuse, a published API used &optional
2015-07-23T00:24:27Z stassats: which reminds me, i recently wanted to add some &keys to a functions in sb-unicode and it already had &optionals
2015-07-23T00:24:36Z stassats: so i was unable to do so
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2015-07-23T00:25:42Z stassats: now what i'm driving at, guess who made that &optional argument?
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2015-07-23T00:33:06Z White_Flame: yeah, we've taken to eliminating &optional in our code as a maintainability concern
2015-07-23T00:33:20Z White_Flame: at least for APIs intended to be public
2015-07-23T00:33:23Z stassats: only for public API
2015-07-23T00:33:34Z stassats: internally, &optional is an optimization
2015-07-23T00:33:40Z White_Flame: certainly
2015-07-23T00:33:51Z White_Flame: and internal code is refactorable :)
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2015-07-23T05:32:32Z Xof: yes, it's all my fault!
2015-07-23T05:32:57Z Xof: secretly I am trying to make everyone use &aux
2015-07-23T05:37:06Z loke has never used &AUX
2015-07-23T05:37:26Z loke: I do remember a post from someone mentioning a valid use case for it.
2015-07-23T05:37:33Z loke: I'd be damned if I can remember it now.
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2015-07-23T12:16:42Z pkhuong: defstruct
2015-07-23T12:19:21Z stassats: where?
2015-07-23T12:23:07Z flip214: stassats: the initializer function
2015-07-23T12:23:36Z flip214: 19.6. By-Position Constructor Functions
2015-07-23T12:24:26Z stassats: ok, that's a answer to a 6 hour old discussion
2015-07-23T12:26:11Z flip214: better late than never...
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2015-07-23T18:51:25Z slyrus: perhaps others have noticed this but, fwiw, SBCL-1.2.3.67 (e.g.) can't build the current head, but 1.2.4 (e.g.) can. and current head seems to be able to build itself.
2015-07-23T18:51:47Z stassats: that has been fixed
2015-07-23T18:52:14Z slyrus: i mean 1.2.13.67 btw
2015-07-23T18:52:24Z stassats: that has been fixed too
2015-07-23T18:52:49Z slyrus: fixed as in those builds can now build the current head or the bug that caused those builds not work has been fixed (but the unbuildability remains)?
2015-07-23T18:52:59Z slyrus: not sure if I'm making sense...
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2015-07-23T18:53:27Z stassats: it's fixed either way
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2015-07-23T18:54:27Z slyrus: huh. i'm not sure I completely agree, but OK.
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2015-07-25T13:55:20Z beepbeep_: Picked up the little schemer and want to start tinkering. Started sbcl and wrote following: (defun atom? (x)
2015-07-25T13:55:21Z beepbeep_:   (not (listp x)))
2015-07-25T13:55:31Z beepbeep_: when I try to (atom? (quote (harry)))
2015-07-25T13:55:36Z beepbeep_: I get "undefined function atom?"
2015-07-25T13:55:43Z beepbeep_: I don't understand why. :p
2015-07-25T13:59:24Z |3b|: presumably you didn't something wrong that you didn't describe there
2015-07-25T14:00:06Z beepbeep_: myea, you are right :)
2015-07-25T14:00:14Z |3b|: try pasting an entire repl session at paste.lisp.org/new demonstrating the problem
2015-07-25T14:00:23Z beepbeep_: because learning emacs and all that stuff in one go is a bit much
2015-07-25T14:00:35Z beepbeep_: I'm using the atom editor, using a slime plugin, which kind of works
2015-07-25T14:00:45Z beepbeep_: I can connect and evaluate things like (+ 1 1)
2015-07-25T14:00:59Z |3b|: (and probably better suited to #lisp, since "start tinkering" probably isn't going to run into sbcl specific problems)
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2015-07-25T14:02:34Z beepbeep_: |3b| one last question, how do I load .lisp files in sbcl?
2015-07-25T14:02:45Z |3b|: LOAD, same as any CL
2015-07-25T14:02:47Z jackdaniel: (load "file.lisp")
2015-07-25T14:02:52Z jackdaniel: ↑
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2015-07-25T14:03:14Z |3b|: though that may not be the best way to interact with lisp and lisp files
2015-07-25T14:03:19Z beepbeep_: well that was surprisingly easily
2015-07-25T14:03:25Z beepbeep_: easy*
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2015-07-25T14:03:35Z |3b| usually just tells the editor to load it with a hotkey
2015-07-25T14:03:47Z |3b| also usually tells it to compile it before loading
2015-07-25T14:03:49Z beepbeep_: |3b| what editor are you using?
2015-07-25T14:03:53Z |3b|: emacs with slime
2015-07-25T14:04:03Z beepbeep_: myeah .. too little time to learn about emacs now.
2015-07-25T14:04:34Z |3b|: yeah, just pointing out that you should expect at least that much from whatever editor you do use :)
2015-07-25T14:05:00Z jackdaniel: if atom has something like custom-hooks, you can create such behaviour by yourself
2015-07-25T14:05:08Z jackdaniel: s/atom/editor you're using/
2015-07-25T14:05:38Z |3b| also compiles/loads individual functions within a file while working on them
2015-07-25T14:05:59Z jackdaniel: yeah, that would be harder :p
2015-07-25T14:06:15Z beepbeep_: i could probably set up a simple thingy in vim
2015-07-25T14:06:31Z |3b|: vim has some slime-like things that are supposedly not too bad
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2015-07-25T14:09:31Z beepbeep_: let's try :)
2015-07-25T14:12:37Z |3b|: or you could try emacs' vi/vim emulations :p
2015-07-25T14:15:03Z jackdaniel: so-called evil mode :)
2015-07-25T14:23:22Z Xof: wait, learning emacs in one go is a bit much but using the atom editor (which has been around for all of, what, four months) is OK?
2015-07-25T14:24:07Z Xof: (a bit longer than that, apparently: a year or so)
2015-07-25T14:24:23Z Xof: still, nice that they have a slimeish mode; I would hope that it more than "kind of" works
2015-07-25T14:25:38Z jackdaniel: hmm, lack of capable not-emacs ide seems to be blocker for many new CL adepts
2015-07-25T14:26:16Z Xof: true
2015-07-25T14:26:31Z Xof: I have on my whiteboard the task to build a Jupyter kernel for sbcl
2015-07-25T14:26:43Z Xof: if anyone wants to beat me to it, be my guest :)
2015-07-25T14:26:55Z jackdaniel: jupyter kernel?
2015-07-25T14:27:03Z Xof: formerly known as IPython
2015-07-25T14:27:12Z jackdaniel: oh
2015-07-25T14:28:14Z jackdaniel: language-agnostic, so any language may target it. nice :)
2015-07-25T14:31:03Z Xof: yeah.  Though I doubt it will be rich enough to offer a nice debugger integration
2015-07-25T14:33:58Z Xof: but still, it might be a nice easy way to allow people to play
2015-07-25T14:34:14Z Xof: (and to distribute "here is a neat thing you can do with lisp" web pages
2015-07-25T14:35:48Z beepbeep_: Xof, well, I just want to evaluate some common lisp that's all
2015-07-25T14:35:54Z beepbeep_: theres nothing to learn about atom
2015-07-25T14:35:59Z beepbeep_: I can type stuff .. :p
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2015-07-25T14:53:27Z Xof: "but how do you quit" :-)
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2015-07-25T15:42:53Z pkhuong types stuff in emacs all the time
2015-07-25T15:44:33Z beepbeep_: you guys are right.
2015-07-25T15:47:13Z Xof: if I do write a Jupyter kernel, there can then be the insanity of using emacs to edit Jupyter notebooks with Lisp code in them
2015-07-25T15:52:10Z Xof: https://github.com/millejoh/emacs-ipython-notebook
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2015-07-25T18:58:00Z hydan: beepbeep_: Emacs is the closest thing we have still in active use and development that is *like* a Lisp Machine in some ways. Emacs can significantly contribute to more pleasant and enlightening Lisp experience. Knowing all of that, it would be immoral not to recommend learning Emacs. But yeah, #lisp topics.
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2015-07-26T07:40:07Z schjetne: Xof: I was actually thinking of doing a Jupyter kernel myself. I got as far as writing https://github.com/gschjetne/json-mop to make the JSON less annoying.
2015-07-26T07:40:20Z schjetne: But I'm still undecided on how useful such a thing would be.
2015-07-26T07:42:51Z schjetne: It could in turn be used to create a Maxima kernel, that might make Maxima a whole lot more useful
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2015-07-26T10:21:23Z Xof: I am behind the times
2015-07-26T10:21:24Z Xof: https://github.com/fredokun/fishbowl-repl/blob/master/AboutFishbowl.ipynb
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2015-07-26T10:34:38Z schjetne: Xof: I was looking for other implementations too, I never found that
2015-07-26T10:35:46Z schjetne: I considered using burgled-batteries, but that doesn't have callbacks working yet
2015-07-26T10:37:46Z schjetne: So I started looking into ZeroMQ and starting from scratch
2015-07-26T10:40:50Z schjetne: Fishbowl looks reasonably complete, I could try it out for my use case and see if it's worth spending time on.
2015-07-26T10:41:46Z stassats: i'm not entirely clear how this is specific to #sbcl? #lisp has a larger audience for things like this
2015-07-26T10:43:30Z Xof: it's a day-long asynchronous conversation that started around editors and path-to-entry
2015-07-26T10:43:42Z Xof: it's not, as it turns out, specific to sbcl
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2015-07-26T10:44:27Z stassats: incumbent editors suck, that's all i have to say
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2015-07-26T11:03:16Z schjetne: stassats: any idea how to fix it? My take on it is that it will require a major commercial effort, as with Eclipse.
2015-07-26T11:03:44Z stassats: i'm writing my own, it doesn't take much effort, actually
2015-07-26T11:03:45Z schjetne: Though I'm a commercial Lisp user, I don't really have the money to put into a large-scale effort like that
2015-07-26T11:04:11Z schjetne: stassats: have anything out, like a repo?
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2015-07-26T11:04:18Z stassats: it
2015-07-26T11:04:22Z stassats: 's not usable
2015-07-26T11:04:32Z stassats: so, not yet
2015-07-26T11:04:59Z stassats: i haven't been working on it for some time, other things intercede
2015-07-26T11:05:10Z schjetne: I tried the Allegro IDE, it doesn't even have syntax highlighting, so even the commercial stuff is very unimpressive.
2015-07-26T11:05:22Z stassats: that can't be true
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2015-07-26T11:05:59Z schjetne: Maybe it works on Windows, but with GTK+ it doesn't.
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2015-07-26T11:09:33Z schjetne: Here's what I get when I try to turn it on: Warning: Source code colorization is not implemented yet on GTK (because formatted text in general is not yet implemented).
2015-07-26T11:10:14Z stassats: schjetne: but i had a video demo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUw3ECmiLJg
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2015-07-26T11:11:22Z schjetne: That looks pretty nice. Are you using Qtools?
2015-07-26T11:11:35Z stassats: no
2015-07-26T11:12:50Z stassats: there's not much left to do to have something semi-usable, but i just can't get myself to switch to doing that
2015-07-26T11:13:23Z stassats: i think the only big thing that's missing is auto-indentation, the rest is just polishing
2015-07-26T11:13:46Z stassats: "just"
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2015-07-26T11:17:43Z schjetne: It would be really nice to have a listener like Jupyter without being disconnected from the image and a proper debugger.
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2015-07-26T12:34:07Z Xof: org-mode with slime might be pretty close
2015-07-26T12:34:20Z Xof: apart from the browser integration
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2015-07-26T19:53:45Z jackdaniel: I think this is bug that sbcl allows (labels ((xxx () "hi") (xxx () "ih")) (xxx))
2015-07-26T19:54:11Z stassats: where is the bug?
2015-07-26T19:54:27Z jackdaniel: hm, two local functions of the same name
2015-07-26T19:54:41Z stassats: and why is that not allowed?
2015-07-26T19:54:48Z jackdaniel: since there is no particular order (mutal recursion is possible), then we don't know, which shadows which
2015-07-26T19:55:20Z jackdaniel: and it's inconsistant with (let ((x 1) (x 2)) x)  ; this signals condition
2015-07-26T19:55:42Z stassats: that's not the same is it?
2015-07-26T19:55:47Z stassats: (let* ((x 1) (x 2)) x) is
2015-07-26T19:56:30Z jackdaniel: not really, in labels you can access any function defined in labels, even upper one
2015-07-26T19:56:47Z jackdaniel: in let* you can access variables defined above
2015-07-26T19:57:08Z stassats: there is a distinction between upper and above?
2015-07-26T19:57:35Z jackdaniel: no, my english is just *that* bad
2015-07-26T20:03:20Z stassats: in any case, that's not a bug
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2015-07-26T20:06:01Z jackdaniel: I still think that is, but I may be wrong obviously (what is probable, because your knowledge about spec is way broader)
2015-07-26T20:07:10Z jackdaniel: s/that is/it is/
2015-07-26T20:18:44Z Xof: I would say that it's undesireable that sbcl doesn't tell you when you're repeating a labels name
2015-07-26T20:20:09Z Xof: (similarly FLET name, if you want a direct analogue to LET)
2015-07-26T20:25:45Z Quadrescence: i don't actually know the specified behavior of repeated functions in labels
2015-07-26T20:26:40Z Quadrescence: (labels ((x () 1) (x () (x))) (x)) no idea if this terminates, or if any permutation of the labels terminate
2015-07-26T20:26:50Z Quadrescence: s
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2015-07-26T21:06:41Z dim: hi
2015-07-26T21:06:41Z minion: dim, memo from jackdaniel: I've succesfully load pgloader with ECL, I'll send pull requests to qmynd and pgloader until evening
2015-07-26T21:06:42Z minion: dim, memo from jackdani1l: You need latest commit from ECL, which adds support for specialization on double-float (Postmodern wants this). Both pull requests are made on github (pgloader and qmynd). You may grab ECL from git@gitlab.com:embeddable-common-lisp/ecl.git
2015-07-26T21:07:15Z dim: hey, thanks jackdaniel ;-)
2015-07-26T21:07:33Z dim: so about SBCL, here
2015-07-26T21:08:00Z dim: is there a way to build a binary image of the code (save-lisp-and-die) that would statically include all its .so dependencies, for easier shipping?
2015-07-26T21:08:09Z stassats: no
2015-07-26T21:08:29Z dim: is it impossible in general or unsupported by SBCL?
2015-07-26T21:08:35Z dim: (and oh hi stassats!)
2015-07-26T21:08:55Z stassats: possible in theory
2015-07-26T21:09:11Z p_l: dim: well, you could add code that unpacks so files somewhere then fixes-up the paths
2015-07-26T21:09:27Z dim: p_l: sounds evil, somehow I still like it ;-)
2015-07-26T21:09:32Z p_l: would be quite brittle, too
2015-07-26T21:09:41Z p_l: better work on some packaging scheme ;)
2015-07-26T21:10:01Z stassats: just as brittle as providing the .so files separately
2015-07-26T21:10:02Z dim: well the current situation is very fragile already
2015-07-26T21:10:26Z dim: basically it only works without surprise in debian, where the package is built with the .so files at the same location than when the package is installed and run
2015-07-26T21:10:57Z stassats: statically linking would provide better results
2015-07-26T21:11:49Z fe[nl]ix: stassats: statically linking anything into sbcl is rather convoluted
2015-07-26T21:12:12Z dim: apparently I may use (cffi:load-foreign-library "/absolute/path/to/the/lib.so"), right?
2015-07-26T21:12:20Z fe[nl]ix: dim: yes
2015-07-26T21:13:06Z dim: so maybe I should try building an image containing the so in memory, and save them to file then load them from here when I now I will need'em
2015-07-26T21:13:38Z stassats: i would advise against doing so
2015-07-26T21:13:41Z dim: as it's bad practice (in particular for openssl, security and all that), I could add some way to circumvent the thing
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2015-07-26T21:13:56Z dim: stassats: well I still need to mane pgloader easier to build and use
2015-07-26T21:14:08Z stassats: make a zipball
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2015-07-26T21:16:49Z dim: see https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/labels/Build%20System if you want more specific problems, most of them are "unable to find/load lib"
2015-07-26T21:17:03Z dim: problems either at build time or run-time
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2015-07-26T21:18:45Z dim: stassats: do you mean a zip with all the libs in there?
2015-07-26T21:18:54Z stassats: yes
2015-07-26T21:19:25Z dim: yeah then I have my other problem which is setting up all those build environments :(
2015-07-26T21:19:47Z fe[nl]ix: dim: I'll take a look at those issues. many, I suppose, would benefit from improving CFFI and/or some linker tricks
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2015-07-26T21:20:22Z dim: thanks fe[nl]ix
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2015-07-26T21:20:36Z dim: I know about nothing about how the linker works, and about CFFI
2015-07-26T21:20:47Z dim: so I don't know where to begin with to fix those issues
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2015-07-26T21:22:47Z dim: also, could it be that buildapp does somethingit shouldn't here?
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2015-07-26T21:23:33Z fe[nl]ix: I don't know yet
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2015-07-26T21:27:33Z dim: fait enough
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2015-07-26T21:28:08Z dim: ok I'm off to bed now, I'll be sure to read here again, and if you find anything you know how to reach me I'm sure ;-)
2015-07-26T21:29:18Z dim: also for information I wanted to try https://github.com/renard/cl-image-builder as another image builder that promises to take care of ASDF in a way that allows --self-upgrade to finally work
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2015-07-26T21:36:52Z Shinmera: I would also be very interested in the capability of statically linking libraries in, or some other scheme of making the deployment a bit more comfortable.
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2015-07-27T08:59:01Z jackdaniel: you can't statically link so objects, only *.a counterparts (at least according to this http://stackoverflow.com/questions/725472/static-link-of-shared-library-function-in-gcc)
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2015-07-27T14:35:13Z jackdaniel: (setf (readtable-case *readtable*) :invert) RET 'DANIEL ; shouldn't that be read as 'daniel ?
2015-07-27T14:36:20Z jackdaniel: tfu, I mean |daniel|
2015-07-27T14:37:17Z jackdaniel: nvm, my mistake
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2015-07-28T03:03:20Z dougk2: Is this right? (csubtypep (specifier-type '(integer 1 2)) (find-classoid 'integer)) => NIL and T
2015-07-28T03:04:29Z nyef: You're dealing with the underpinnings of the type system: Whatever it says, there's a rather unfortunate chance that it's wrong
2015-07-28T03:10:45Z pkhuong: that looks like another case of bad defaults when there's no complex type method.
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2015-07-28T03:48:23Z Fare: Can you run this form?  (apply 'mapcar 'list '((1 2 3) (4 5 6) (7 8 9)))
2015-07-28T03:48:23Z minion: Fare, memo from dim: can you update cl-asdf debian package in sid please?
2015-07-28T03:52:56Z scymtym: Fare: 1.2.13.debian seems ok while almost master gives ((1 7 NIL) (2 8 NIL) (3 9 NIL))
2015-07-28T03:53:13Z Fare: yup
2015-07-28T03:55:49Z scymtym: Fare: i saw your deprecation branch for asdf. after the current freeze i will commit support for a DEPRECATED declaration for functions, variables and types. will this be of interest to you?
2015-07-28T03:56:03Z Fare: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1478768
2015-07-28T03:56:22Z Fare: scymtym, yes, it's useful.
2015-07-28T03:56:49Z Fare: scymtym: although, how to use it in a backward compatible way? #.(if (find-symbol ...) ...)
2015-07-28T03:57:02Z scymtym: Fare: that's the sad part
2015-07-28T03:57:37Z scymtym: Fare: i can push the branch somewhere if you want to experiment and make suggestions
2015-07-28T03:57:41Z Fare: harder is deprecating package names
2015-07-28T03:58:09Z Fare: scymtym, probably no time to actually play with it, but send me the API
2015-07-28T04:00:00Z loke: (mapcar #'list '(1 2 3) '(4 5 6) '(7 8 9))
2015-07-28T04:00:02Z loke: Gives:
2015-07-28T04:00:12Z loke: ((1 7 NIL) (2 8 NIL) (3 9 NIL))
2015-07-28T04:00:56Z scymtym: i can image the out-of-line MAP1 optimization is to blame
2015-07-28T04:01:18Z scymtym: Fare: would info documentation be OK for API?
2015-07-28T04:02:28Z Fare: scymtym, sure, whatever you have
2015-07-28T04:03:41Z scymtym: https://www.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de/~jmoringe/deprecation/. i use C-u M-x info PATH/sbcl.info RET. the chapter is called "Deprecation".
2015-07-28T04:04:38Z Fare: source code would have been nicer
2015-07-28T04:05:49Z scymtym: texinfo source?
2015-07-28T04:07:25Z Fare: yes
2015-07-28T04:07:36Z Fare: that's OK, I'm viewing it with less
2015-07-28T04:08:20Z scymtym: i pushed the branch. you can look at the texinfo there: https://github.com/scymtym/sbcl/blob/wip-deprecation/doc/manual/deprecation.texinfo
2015-07-28T04:10:15Z Fare: thanks
2015-07-28T04:10:33Z Fare: looks reasonable, after my superficial reading.
2015-07-28T04:10:50Z Fare: are you errors continuable?
2015-07-28T04:14:34Z scymtym: runtime errors are only signaled for things in :final deprecation. these cannot be continuable because the actual thing is not defined anymore - only a stub which signals the error.
2015-07-28T04:15:01Z scymtym: everything else is a compile-time [style-]warning without change in runtime behavior
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2015-07-28T04:39:13Z scymtym: minion: memo for stassats: does https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1478768 look OK to you?
2015-07-28T04:39:14Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell stassats when he/she/it next speaks.
2015-07-28T04:45:02Z loke: Seems like stassts was the perpetrator of this bug :-)
2015-07-28T04:45:13Z loke: on 2014-07-14
2015-07-28T04:45:17Z loke: I mean 2015
2015-07-28T04:59:03Z scymtym: that's why i left him a memo
2015-07-28T05:04:56Z Fare: scymtym, what about having a regression test or two?
2015-07-28T05:06:12Z scymtym: Fare: the patch adds your example to map-tests.impure.lisp/map-out-of-line
2015-07-28T05:06:31Z scymtym: or do you have something different in mind?
2015-07-28T05:14:09Z Fare: not really
2015-07-28T05:15:54Z scymtym: hm, looking at the test, it could be made more regular and test more inputs
2015-07-28T05:16:09Z scymtym: and MAPC is missing
2015-07-28T05:16:17Z scymtym will take care of that after the freeze
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2015-07-28T05:19:27Z Fare: when is the freeze?
2015-07-28T05:19:46Z Fare: if not frozen yet, can asdf 3.1.5 be part of it? my patch to sb-grovel?
2015-07-28T05:20:11Z Fare: I have several unapplied patches in the sbcl bug system :-(
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2015-07-28T05:35:06Z scymtym: iiuc, we are almost at the end of the freeze. i think Xof wants to release in the middle of this week
2015-07-28T05:35:57Z scymtym: asdf update can probably be applied right after the release
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2015-07-28T05:37:15Z scymtym: what are the other patches besides asdf and sb-grovel?
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2015-07-28T05:59:21Z Fare: hopefully the mapcar fix goes before release -- that's pretty bad. But yes, asdf should wait until after release
2015-07-28T05:59:49Z Fare: there was a patch to compute fewer truenames
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2015-07-28T07:12:00Z Xof: definitely holding up the release for the map fix
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2015-07-28T07:49:28Z jackdaniel: hm, if file which is loaded changes readtable, it isn't reset after loading in sbcl
2015-07-28T07:58:16Z scymtym_: jackdaniel: are you referring to the *READTABLE* variable or the READTABLE instance that the variable is bound to?
2015-07-28T07:59:07Z jackdaniel: (let ((*readtable* (copy-readtable *readtable*))) (load "1.lisp") (readtable-case *readtable*)) ; --> :invert, but spec says, that it load shouldn't affect *readtable*
2015-07-28T07:59:23Z jackdaniel: 1.lisp contains only (setf (readtable-case *readtable*) :invert)
2015-07-28T08:04:17Z scymtym_: LOAD re-binds *READTABLE* to the readtable object created in the LET form, 1.lisp modifies that object, the second form in the LET body accesses the modified object
2015-07-28T08:04:56Z scymtym_: compare (progn (let ((*readtable* (copy-readtable *readtable*))) (load "/tmp/l.lisp")) (readtable-case *readtable*))
2015-07-28T08:08:12Z jackdaniel: ok, I understand it now, thanks. Confused binds to original values with restores values from before
2015-07-28T08:10:44Z scymtym_: i think Fare has an asdf branch which enforces the behavior you expected (in the context of ASDF:LOAD-SYSTEM that is, not CL:LOAD)
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2015-07-28T12:15:09Z Xach has New SBCL Woes
2015-07-28T12:16:24Z Xof: Uhoh
2015-07-28T12:16:26Z Xof: listening
2015-07-28T12:18:43Z flip214 hopes for a new, enlightening blog post...
2015-07-28T12:29:48Z Xach: Xof: it seems that sbcl from git is signaling a lock error when doing e.g. (defconstant cl:error 42)
2015-07-28T12:29:57Z Xach: Xof: a few projects do that with ERROR and QUOTE
2015-07-28T12:30:23Z Xach: it seems like a bad idea, but i don't see that 11.1.2.1.2 prohibits it - did I miss something?
2015-07-28T12:31:22Z Xof: I think point 1 ("binding or altering its value")
2015-07-28T12:32:09Z Xof: (whether it's formally prohibited or not, I think it's a terribad idea and I'd not be particularly minded to remove the package lock)
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2015-07-28T12:37:18Z Xach: Ok. I thought defining as as constant was in the exceptions, but I see now that it is not.
2015-07-28T12:37:47Z Xach reports some bugs
2015-07-28T12:38:04Z Xach: Xof: the other issue is that a few projects use SB-KERNEL:PARSE-DEFMACRO, which is obviously not on sbcl.
2015-07-28T12:38:16Z Xach: now there is no SB-KERNEL:PARSE-DEFMACRO
2015-07-28T12:38:40Z stassats: they were warned
2015-07-28T12:38:40Z minion: stassats, memo from scymtym: does https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1478768 look OK to you?
2015-07-28T12:39:13Z stassats: scymtym_: the bug doesn't look ok, but the fix is right
2015-07-28T12:40:08Z stassats: i blame the lack of tests again (not myself for making a typo, of course)
2015-07-28T12:41:51Z stassats: Xach: good thing that it now catches those constants, that was one of the reasons for the change
2015-07-28T12:42:20Z Xach: yes
2015-07-28T12:42:33Z Xach: it is a bad thing to do
2015-07-28T12:43:41Z stassats: it not only breaks when two different packages decide to make the same constant, it also breaks valid things like (let ((error ...)) ...)
2015-07-28T12:44:27Z Xach: I will have a clean report of the affected projects soon.
2015-07-28T12:44:40Z Xach: Right now my report is cluttered with clx style-warning failures, but I have updated clx
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2015-07-28T15:54:56Z Xach: http://report.quicklisp.org/2015-07-28/failure-report.html has the latest sbcl report
2015-07-28T16:00:12Z nyef: Is this the mapcar thing again/still?
2015-07-28T16:01:01Z nyef: That is, https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1478768 ?
2015-07-28T16:01:04Z Xach: no, this is stricter checking of 11.1.2.1.2 rules and SB-KERNEL:PARSE-DEFMACRO changes
2015-07-28T16:01:25Z Xach: All need fixing on the library side, I think.
2015-07-28T16:01:31Z nyef: Oh, okay. So not on SBCL?
2015-07-28T16:01:36Z Xach: Nope.
2015-07-28T16:06:21Z stassats: mapcar is rarely affected, since it's usually transformed
2015-07-28T16:06:40Z stassats: that's why the tests didn't catch it
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2015-07-28T16:24:09Z Xach: I don't understand the failure report for http://report.quicklisp.org/2015-07-28/failure-report/colleen.html#colleen
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2015-07-28T16:34:53Z dougk_: the glaring error is an attempt to funcall NIL, but there's also a subtle error - I think (destructuring-bind (() x) '(nil thing) ...) borders on being illegal. The spec says that only in a context where a list is unambiguously *not* accepted can a nested destructuring pattern be present.
2015-07-28T16:35:14Z dougk_: the problem with () is that it's just NIL, and NIL, while a list, is also a symbol, and a symbol that you can't bind.
2015-07-28T16:35:27Z Xach: dougk_: where in the source is the attempt to funcall nil?
2015-07-28T16:35:54Z dougk_: somewhere in GENERATE-HANDLER-PRIORITY-CACHE, which i haven't looked at.
2015-07-28T16:48:33Z stassats: that's not an sbcl problem
2015-07-28T16:48:57Z stassats: (v:trace :event "Rebuilding priority map.") expands into (FUNCALL (LOAD-TIME-VALUE (UNLESS (FIND-PACKAGE :VERBOSE) (ASDF/OPERATE:LOAD-SYSTEM :VERBOSE) (FIND-SYMBOL (STRING :LOG) :VERBOSE))) ':TRACE :EVENT "Rebuilding priority map.")
2015-07-28T16:50:05Z Xach: oh, ok. that's a different issue i've discussed with shinmera.
2015-07-28T16:50:26Z stassats: and that's a strange way to do that
2015-07-28T16:50:35Z stassats: besides being broken, that is
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2015-07-28T17:18:00Z Xach: stassats: what should it do instead?
2015-07-28T17:22:08Z Xach: slyrus: ch-image is affected by the sbcl updates. are you inclined to fix it, or shall i just drop it from quicklisp?
2015-07-28T17:22:15Z Xach: slyrus: http://report.quicklisp.org/2015-07-28/failure-report/ch-image.html#ch-image
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2015-07-28T17:30:05Z slyrus: Xach: everybody should be using opticl instead of ch-image
2015-07-28T17:30:11Z slyrus: but thanks for the report!
2015-07-28T17:30:55Z Xach: slyrus: any thoughts on fix vs forget?
2015-07-28T17:31:20Z slyrus: i'll fix it
2015-07-28T17:31:29Z slyrus: can be probably be forgotten too though
2015-07-28T17:31:37Z slyrus: i'm probably the only with any code that uses it :)
2015-07-28T17:32:29Z slyrus: and even that should probably go away/be fixed to use opticl
2015-07-28T17:35:15Z Xach forgets it so nobody is tempted to try using it
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2015-07-28T17:47:27Z stassats: Xach: depend on it in .asd?
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2015-07-28T21:59:49Z slyrus: Xach: around?
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2015-07-28T23:23:37Z Xach: slyrus: yeah
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2015-07-28T23:35:14Z Xach: slyrus: problem with clem, too
2015-07-28T23:35:54Z slyrus: Xach: actually it's the SBCL bug that was fixed today
2015-07-28T23:36:25Z slyrus: and I think it's only with CLEM, but ch-image depends on that
2015-07-28T23:36:44Z slyrus: Xach: still here?
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2015-07-28T23:45:19Z Xach: ok
2015-07-28T23:45:21Z Xach: slyrus: yes
2015-07-28T23:45:48Z Xach: slyrus: i'll try rebuilding & rebuilding
2015-07-28T23:54:36Z slyrus: ok, thanks. lemme know if it's still a problem, but I could reproduce the problem with HEAD~1 but not HEAD here
2015-07-28T23:54:47Z slyrus: or whatever the git-fu for that is
2015-07-28T23:57:41Z Xach: clem ist ohne lisptot
2015-07-28T23:58:12Z stassats: Xach: are you testing on clisp now?
2015-07-28T23:58:38Z Xach: nein
2015-07-29T00:01:55Z slyrus: ohne lisptot?
2015-07-29T00:05:00Z stassats: without lisp-death
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2015-07-29T00:08:08Z slyrus: all the CLEM users celebrate
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2015-07-29T00:32:17Z Xach: both the clem users celebrate
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2015-07-29T00:36:29Z slyrus: not sure there are that many, but OK
2015-07-29T00:37:03Z reb: With SBCL head compare-and-swap.impure.lisp fails to load on ARM:  Symbol "%RAW-INSTANCE-ATOMIC-INCF/WORD" not found in the SB-KERNEL package.  Line: 163, Column: 75, File-Position: 5357
2015-07-29T00:37:14Z reb: ... when running tests.
2015-07-29T00:38:27Z Xach: slyrus: "me, myself, and i"?
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2015-07-29T10:20:36Z Xof: reb: thanks, working on it
2015-07-29T10:20:59Z Xof: (testing on arm is slower than testing on super-duper-x86-64)
2015-07-29T11:05:50Z Xach: http://report.quicklisp.org/2015-07-28/failure-report/hh-aws.html#hh-aws shows breakage for hh-aws. i don't grok it. the project hasn't been updated in 5 years.
2015-07-29T11:06:59Z Xof: new destructuring-bind?
2015-07-29T11:07:32Z Xof: (:FINISH HH-AWS::FINISH-METHOD NIL)
2015-07-29T11:08:09Z Xof: sorry.  In the lambda list, ((:FINISH HH-AWS::FINISH-METHOD NIL)) should be ((:finish finish-method) nil)
2015-07-29T11:08:30Z Xach: ah
2015-07-29T11:08:52Z Xach: oh, to have the eyes of a young person such as yourself. i missed that.
2015-07-29T11:09:16Z Xach: Xof: is that responsible for the subsequent errors?
2015-07-29T11:09:20Z Xach edits in place and checks
2015-07-29T11:13:35Z Xach: Ok, thanks. Fixing that did the trick.
2015-07-29T11:16:31Z Xof: we are all 31.  (I find a large font size helps :-)
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2015-07-29T11:27:08Z Xach: I forgot about that joke. I haven't thought about it, I think, since 31 was in the future, not the distant past...
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2015-07-29T11:27:41Z Xof: we've been doing this a long time :-/
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2015-07-29T12:40:28Z Xof: Xach: are you currently looking at other unexplained quicklisp-universe failures that might be regressions?
2015-07-29T12:42:53Z Xach: Xof: Everything is explained at this point.
2015-07-29T12:43:54Z Xof: thanks
2015-07-29T12:44:03Z Xof: meanwhile, I made the mistake of updating my slime and now nothing works :-/
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2015-07-29T12:50:15Z Xof: worse, things sometimes work
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2015-07-29T14:07:33Z reb`: Xof: Thanks for taking a look at the ARM issue.  If it makes sense for me to test a fix, let me know.
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2015-07-29T14:07:56Z Xof: no, I'm done.  Thanks
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2015-07-29T14:08:20Z Xof: I mean you could test current master if you like but I did it on my arm box so it should be OK
2015-07-29T14:08:38Z Xof: I suppose I should press the big Release button
2015-07-29T14:09:24Z Xof: waiting ~15 minutes to hear if anyone says "don't push the button"
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2015-07-29T14:27:04Z flip214: push the button!
2015-07-29T14:27:19Z flip214: oh wait, that was 4 minutes late.
2015-07-29T14:31:40Z Xof: that's OK; it turns out that making and drinking tea takes longer than I was expecting
2015-07-29T14:35:45Z flip214: at least a few hours, if you do it properly - that's what I heard, at least.
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2015-07-29T15:00:42Z Xof: hm, well, there's a snag: sourceforge file uploads aren't re-enabled yet
2015-07-29T15:02:09Z nyef_: So, tagged and bagged, and the water is ready, but someone stole all the teacups?
2015-07-29T15:03:00Z Xof: pretty much
2015-07-29T15:03:07Z Xof: the solution is clearly to allow drinking from the firehose
2015-07-29T15:04:10Z pkhuong: I can probably ask to put it on our CDN, but adblock wouldn't like the link ;)
2015-07-29T15:04:42Z Xof: it's OK; teacups are so last century
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2015-07-29T15:21:02Z Xof: done, as far as is possible.
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2015-07-29T21:02:27Z scymtym_ should have tested DEPRECATED declaration with different hosts
2015-07-29T21:03:28Z Fare: if you're exposing this interface as public, it's probably no good to have it default to SBCL
2015-07-29T21:03:48Z Fare: when only a version is specified
2015-07-29T21:04:06Z scymtym_: thanks for reminding me, i though about that at some point and then forgot
2015-07-29T21:04:54Z scymtym_: it should probably just omit the "software" string if only a version is specified
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2015-07-30T02:39:33Z scymtym: minion: memo for Fare: ASDF update looks fine except for a few minor things: http://paste.lisp.org/display/152623. if this fixup looks ok to you, i can squash it into your commit and push tomorrow.
2015-07-30T02:39:33Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Fare when he/she/it next speaks.
2015-07-30T02:39:50Z scymtym: (unless anybody has objections)
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2015-07-30T07:38:37Z scymtym: minion: forget my memos
2015-07-30T07:38:37Z minion: OK, I threw it out.
2015-07-30T07:38:38Z scymtym: Fare: pushed
2015-07-30T07:56:46Z Fare: thanks a lot!
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2015-07-30T08:10:15Z JuanDaugherty: the internal ht wiki is always down?
2015-07-30T08:10:26Z JuanDaugherty: *internals
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2015-07-30T10:16:11Z chris2: hm, the 1.2.14 release is on the website, but no tarball on sf?
2015-07-30T10:18:57Z jsnell: I think file uploads are still disabled on sf.net
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2015-07-30T11:18:15Z chris2: oh
2015-07-30T11:18:25Z chris2: is the tarball available anywhere else?
2015-07-30T11:29:32Z PuercoPop: chris2: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/releases
2015-07-30T11:30:08Z chris2: ah great
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2015-07-30T12:13:15Z francogrex: from my experience and others I see that there is a lack of what I call "backward compatibility" between sbcl and asd libraries
2015-07-30T12:13:32Z francogrex: *some* libraries
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2015-07-30T12:32:34Z stassats: PuercoPop chris2: that's not the release tarball
2015-07-30T12:32:34Z minion: stassats, memo from drmeister: I think M-. and ext:compiled-function-file works now.
2015-07-30T12:33:19Z stassats: francogrex: no, sbcl maintains backwards compatibility
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2015-07-30T12:37:04Z stassats: though it's probably equivalent to the source archive, not sure what exactly github does
2015-07-30T12:37:24Z PuercoPop: stassats: Is this not a tarball with the latest release? https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/archive/sbcl-1.2.14.tar.gz
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2015-07-30T12:42:22Z francogrex: stassats: with some libs, also after talks on #lisp when sbcl gets updated or when the library is updated you get such errors: UIOP/LISP-BUILD:COMPILE-FILE-ERROR
2015-07-30T12:42:52Z francogrex: it's asdf related probably
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2015-07-30T14:09:27Z stassats: it's not asdf related, broken software tends to break
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2015-07-30T18:51:59Z akkad: is  thread support on osx as mature as linux?
2015-07-30T18:57:35Z pkhuong: no
2015-07-30T18:59:32Z akkad: thx
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2015-07-31T00:50:13Z scymtym: dougk2: thanks for the quick feedback. i will try to address the issues
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2015-07-31T09:17:38Z francogrex: maybe it's more sbcl related question? can you please see this and give me an idea why this happens here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/152682
2015-07-31T09:18:05Z stassats: there is no error i nyour paste
2015-07-31T09:18:45Z francogrex: UIOP/LISP-BUILD:COMPILE-FILE-ERROR
2015-07-31T09:18:52Z stassats: that's not the error
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2015-07-31T09:21:28Z easye: Looking to update MacPorts packaging of SBCL to 1.2.14 but there seems to be something funky with downloading the source:  the link to <http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/sbcl/sbcl-1.2.14-source.tar.bz2?download> doesn't resolve to the source...
2015-07-31T09:21:46Z stassats: easye: there's no such file
2015-07-31T09:21:50Z francogrex: can we let go the semantics now; there is something that shoyuld not happen and unable to load and use the lib....
2015-07-31T09:22:15Z stassats: francogrex: you're not showing what should not happen
2015-07-31T09:22:31Z francogrex: a backtrace?
2015-07-31T09:22:48Z stassats: no
2015-07-31T09:22:51Z francogrex: I don't want the debugger invoked
2015-07-31T09:23:15Z francogrex: i don't want to see it appear when I asdf
2015-07-31T09:23:28Z francogrex: I don't want to get that interruption at all
2015-07-31T09:24:20Z francogrex: + any option selected 0 to 4 puts me back into the same debugger
2015-07-31T09:25:01Z stassats: ask #lisp for help on how to figure what the problem is then come back when you know what it is
2015-07-31T09:25:34Z francogrex: i am
2015-07-31T09:25:58Z easye: stassats: But that's the location of the source linked from <http://sbcl.org/platform-table.html>  What is the correct location of the source distribution for sbcl-1.2.14?
2015-07-31T09:26:01Z Xof: easye: I have made announcements regarding that on sbcl-announce, on sbcl-devel, and here
2015-07-31T09:26:19Z stassats: easye: get it from git
2015-07-31T09:26:35Z Xof: where should I have made that announcement for you to have seen it?
2015-07-31T09:27:10Z stassats: on highway billboards?
2015-07-31T09:27:17Z Xof: I'm asking a serious question
2015-07-31T09:27:29Z Xof: I want to avoid wasting other people's time
2015-07-31T09:27:38Z stassats: right in the platform-table.html file
2015-07-31T09:28:15Z stassats: or better, the download link leading to a file explaining why it's missing
2015-07-31T09:28:23Z Xof: also on the main page, yeah :-/
2015-07-31T09:28:36Z Xof: ah well; according to SF I can upload this evening
2015-07-31T09:31:01Z easye: So, y'all intend to have a source tar distributed in the old way once SF starts working again?
2015-07-31T09:32:13Z easye: Xof:  I saw the announcement in my "ambient" awareness, but didn't read the specifics.
2015-07-31T09:32:44Z Xof: easye: yes, as soon as file uploads are re-enabled the files will magically appear in their proper places
2015-07-31T09:32:47Z Xof: I hope, anyway
2015-07-31T09:32:59Z easye: Y'all nervous about staying with SF?
2015-07-31T09:34:42Z stassats: francogrex: wait a minute, did you say https://github.com/skypher/montezuma?
2015-07-31T09:34:58Z stassats: francogrex: you should use https://github.com/sharplispers/montezuma
2015-07-31T09:35:08Z stassats: francogrex: you should actually use quicklisp
2015-07-31T09:36:32Z francogrex: ok then I'll try. s
2015-07-31T09:37:01Z stassats: skypher seems to have abandoned it
2015-07-31T09:37:26Z Xof: easye: not as nervous as running and maintaining my own mailing list manager
2015-07-31T09:37:27Z stassats: i reported another issue to sharplispers, not related to your issue
2015-07-31T09:37:55Z stassats: easye: what possibly bad can happen?
2015-07-31T09:38:28Z stassats: it can go down? well, mirrors have all the old releases, and everything else is replicated in git
2015-07-31T09:38:42Z stassats: mailing list archives?
2015-07-31T09:39:11Z stassats: gmane has those too?
2015-07-31T09:39:37Z easye: Xof:  we'd always welcome you on common-lisp.net ...
2015-07-31T09:40:10Z stassats: easye: speaking of which, why did git repositories disappeared from cl.net?
2015-07-31T09:40:24Z easye: stassats: I guess it looks like SF is becoming increasingly unstable.
2015-07-31T09:40:47Z easye: stassats: I don't know what you are referring to.  Did mail show up on <admin@common-lisp.net>?
2015-07-31T09:40:47Z Xof: fun fact: the last time sourceforge had an extended outage, people said "move to common-lisp.net", which immediately afterwards had an extended outage
2015-07-31T09:40:50Z francogrex: stassats: :) indeed that resolves it
2015-07-31T09:40:58Z stassats: easye: i did not
2015-07-31T09:40:59Z easye: Xof:  agreed.
2015-07-31T09:41:13Z stassats: easye: e.g. my alexandria repository from git://common-lisp.net/projects/alexandria/alexandria.git doesn't work
2015-07-31T09:41:21Z francogrex: but how come? I wish i could understand the reason, how to dig further
2015-07-31T09:41:39Z stassats: francogrex: it was all in the output
2015-07-31T09:41:55Z easye: stassats: I'll send an email now.  But I don't know of anything that would have affected such a change.
2015-07-31T09:42:18Z stassats: common-lisp.net[0: 148.251.248.130]: errno=Connection refused
2015-07-31T09:44:50Z jackdaniel: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/alexandria/alexandria.git
2015-07-31T09:45:12Z stassats: i know about that
2015-07-31T09:45:34Z jackdaniel: oh, tought you suggest that git doesn't work
2015-07-31T09:45:44Z stassats: well, it doesn't
2015-07-31T09:45:54Z stassats: gitlab works, but i don't care about gitlab
2015-07-31T09:46:13Z jackdaniel: whatever
2015-07-31T09:47:01Z stassats: and cl.net shoouldn't break things if it wants to posit itself as a sourceforge alternative
2015-07-31T09:47:28Z easye: stassats: I reported it via email.  I didn't set up all the redirects/firewall so it will probably take getting Erik in on this to resolve.
2015-07-31T09:48:28Z easye: stassats: We posit ourselves as a responsive and responsible non-commercial alternative specifically there to help Common Lisp.
2015-07-31T09:48:36Z easye: It's not like we don't make mistakes.
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