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2015-02-19T08:04:25Z Xof: would anyone be able to look at <http://www.sbcl.org/gsoc2014/ideas/> and see which are obsolete?
2015-02-19T08:04:43Z Xof: I will be aiming to put up the analogous page for 2015 in a couple of hours
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2015-02-19T09:57:26Z mega1: I'd really like to see better integration with foreign memory management. Currently, the only way seems to be to use finalizers on lisp objects to free foreign memory.
2015-02-19T09:58:14Z mega1: And that exacerbates issues of conservativeness.
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2015-02-19T13:52:18Z pkhuong: mega1: like https://github.com/pkhuong/sbcl/commits/foreign-mark-sweep ?
2015-02-19T13:53:01Z pkhuong: or would lua-style non-moving userdata be enough?
2015-02-19T14:06:13Z Xof: so many out-of-tree branches!  So few merges :-(
2015-02-19T14:06:36Z Xof: .oO(where has everyone's free time gone?)
2015-02-19T14:13:54Z pkhuong: Xof: that's a holiday break hack from 2009. I had plenty of free time back then, as a master's student (:
2015-02-19T14:15:01Z Xof: oo, speaking of which: we're about to recruit postdoctoral research fellows
2015-02-19T14:15:04Z Xof: would you fancy being one?
2015-02-19T14:15:22Z Xof: (anyone else is welcome to apply too)
2015-02-19T14:15:24Z pkhuong: what area, funding, period?
2015-02-19T14:15:57Z Xof: area: your choice (working with an established academic at Goldsmiths, so... ymmv); salary fully paid for I believe 3 years
2015-02-19T14:16:20Z Xof: some teaching duties but not too much (maybe one lecture course a year or so)
2015-02-19T14:18:16Z pkhuong: I'll think about it. I might need a break from industry in ~ one year ;)
2015-02-19T14:18:52Z Xof: growth areas at Goldsmiths: biggish data (particularly applied to social / arts / humanities aspects); arts and music computing; computer games
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2015-02-19T14:20:03Z krl: how do i build without sb-thead? make.sh --without-sb-thread still shows :sb-thread in *features*
2015-02-19T14:21:27Z pkhuong: also, re gsoc 2015: 1.1, 1.2, 2.1, 5.1 are done. 6.13, dougk offered code and I think 6.15 is already in for windows(?)
2015-02-19T14:22:59Z pkhuong: krl: --without-thread.
2015-02-19T14:23:20Z krl: pkhuong: thank you
2015-02-19T14:25:09Z pkhuong: or not?
2015-02-19T14:28:55Z krl: hmm. no
2015-02-19T14:29:02Z krl: still :sb-thread in *features*
2015-02-19T14:30:46Z mood: krl: make-config.sh suggests '--without sb-thread' should work, or perhaps
2015-02-19T14:30:56Z mood: '--without thread'
2015-02-19T14:31:33Z krl: no, --without-<feature> says help
2015-02-19T14:31:57Z Shinmera: Yes, but the feature is called sb-thread.
2015-02-19T14:33:00Z krl: i did already 'make.sh --without-sb-thread'
2015-02-19T14:33:03Z stassats: can confirm it's broken
2015-02-19T14:33:57Z Shinmera: You could also try using customize-target-features.lisp with (lambda (features) (setf features (remove :sb-thread features))) in it.
2015-02-19T14:34:17Z stassats: that one still works
2015-02-19T14:34:47Z Xof: go customize-target-features.lisp!  There are only two ways of getting that one wrong (spelling it "customise", and having the extension .lisp-expr)
2015-02-19T14:35:33Z krl: Shinmera: use in what way? i don't have this file
2015-02-19T14:35:44Z Xof: you create it
2015-02-19T14:35:45Z Shinmera: You create it and put it into the build root.
2015-02-19T14:35:47Z krl: i have local-target-features.lisp-expr
2015-02-19T14:36:19Z Xof: Shinmera's description is accurate (you don't actually need the (setf ...); it's the return value that matters)
2015-02-19T14:36:38Z stassats: local-target-features.lisp-expr is not to be modified
2015-02-19T14:36:40Z Shinmera: Right, I mentally copy pasted from my usual script.
2015-02-19T14:37:07Z stassats: did without- ever work?
2015-02-19T14:37:10Z krl: but the setf version works too?
2015-02-19T14:37:55Z krl: ok rebuilding.
2015-02-19T14:43:08Z stassats: without does work, but sb-thread is default in a bad way
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2015-02-19T14:58:18Z stassats: krl: --without-sb-thread should be working now
2015-02-19T14:58:21Z stassats: thanks for the report
2015-02-19T15:01:43Z krl: stassats: thanks for the walkthrough
2015-02-19T15:02:08Z krl: the customize method did work as well
2015-02-19T15:02:26Z stassats: customize is better when you rebuild often
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2015-02-19T15:51:33Z mega1: pkhuong: it's not clear what that branch does
2015-02-19T15:51:55Z pkhuong: mega1: sorry, I thought the commits were more verbose
2015-02-19T15:52:09Z pkhuong: you can register regions of the foreign heap
2015-02-19T15:52:30Z pkhuong: so that they're freed (or a callback is executed) when there are no more SAP to/in the region
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2015-02-19T15:52:44Z pkhuong: or when there are no more tagged references to/in the region
2015-02-19T15:53:05Z mega1: how is this better than finalizers?
2015-02-19T15:53:08Z pkhuong: and the region themselves can be scanned for references to either other regions or to the lisp heap
2015-02-19T15:53:17Z mega1: oh
2015-02-19T15:54:30Z pkhuong: so it's better than finalisers because you avoid the extra indirection
2015-02-19T15:54:57Z mega1: but does it free stuff in a more timely manner?
2015-02-19T15:55:45Z pkhuong: not more timely, but less vulnerable to collateral conservativeness?
2015-02-19T15:56:41Z mega1: I see
2015-02-19T15:57:03Z mega1: I'm not sure this is the best match to what I have in mind. C memory is only one kind of 'external resource' to consider.
2015-02-19T15:58:03Z mega1: When using a foreign library, one often has the call a destructor function.
2015-02-19T15:58:42Z mega1: About the only way to keep C style programming from infecting the lisp side is to use a finalizer.
2015-02-19T15:59:38Z mega1: I'm checking out lua non-moving userdata.
2015-02-19T16:02:59Z mega1: pkhuong: How is lua userdata different from STATIC-VECTORS?
2015-02-19T16:07:58Z pkhuong: mega1: userdata is on the regular heap but guaranteed to stay in place.
2015-02-19T16:09:23Z mega1: that would at least make the GC kick in when needed
2015-02-19T16:10:14Z mega1: which is actually what I'd like to happen whenever foreign memory allocation fails
2015-02-19T16:10:16Z mega1: and retry
2015-02-19T16:11:07Z mega1: I can do that in my own libary, but that opt-in style is not great for resource management.
2015-02-19T16:12:38Z mega1: So yes, non-moving heap allocations would help some.
2015-02-19T16:13:19Z pkhuong: I simply don't think that GC and arbitrary resources can work well together.
2015-02-19T16:14:25Z mega1: You are probably right.
2015-02-19T16:15:27Z mega1: So my updated wishlist: non-moving heap objects, precise gc, scalable finalizer implementation.
2015-02-19T16:16:24Z pkhuong: ok, that's not true... we could try to do a generational refcount.
2015-02-19T16:16:54Z mega1: "generational refcount"?
2015-02-19T16:16:56Z pkhuong: so you'd immediately free objects that aren't part of cycles on minor gcs
2015-02-19T16:17:23Z mega1: cool
2015-02-19T16:17:39Z pkhuong: but I don't see that happening in SBCL any time soon.
2015-02-19T16:19:14Z mega1: The non-moving objects would get rid of most finalizers.
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2015-02-19T16:42:57Z nyef: G'morning all.
2015-02-19T16:46:55Z Xof: mega1: can you write up the scalable finalizer project in the style of http://www.sbcl.org/gsoc2014/ideas/ ?
2015-02-19T16:47:18Z Xof: the others are probably a bit tricky for a student, but I think we know in theory how to do scalable finalizers (and have done for a decade :-/ )
2015-02-19T16:48:13Z mega1: Xof: a couple of paragraphs? do you have a deadline?
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2015-02-19T16:51:02Z Xof: tomorrow :-/
2015-02-19T16:51:17Z Xof: well, no, I have a deadline, but your paragraphs don't have to adhere to it
2015-02-19T16:51:33Z Xof: so sometime between now and student applications to GSoC I suppose
2015-02-19T16:55:21Z mega1: ok, I'll send them to you today
2015-02-19T16:59:55Z Xof: thanks!
2015-02-19T17:00:54Z reb`: SBCL compiled from HEAD has hung twice recently running the :BACKTRACE test in threads.impure.lisp.
2015-02-19T17:01:38Z nyef: ISTR running into an odd test-suite hang recently as well, but don't remember any details.
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2015-02-19T23:03:57Z Xof: gah, why do GSoC change the required dimensions of their logo every year?
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2015-02-19T23:14:29Z stassats: got 64le ppc, but gcc doesn't seem to be able to produce 32-bit binaries
2015-02-19T23:15:04Z stassats: apparently there's no ppc32 le
2015-02-19T23:16:16Z stassats: that goes a bit beyond adding ppc64le) guessed_sbcl_arch=ppc ;; to make-config.sh
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2015-02-19T23:18:15Z stassats: and why is le ppc suddenly in such vogue?
2015-02-19T23:19:37Z Xof: jsnell: ping?
2015-02-19T23:19:55Z Xof: Wretched GSoc form wants me to guess your username
2015-02-19T23:20:01Z Xof: I can probably guess your username
2015-02-19T23:20:31Z Xof: but just in case...
2015-02-19T23:20:49Z jsnell: just a moment
2015-02-19T23:21:11Z stassats: arm64, ppc64, so many targets
2015-02-19T23:21:16Z Xof: alpha
2015-02-19T23:21:19Z stassats: (true alpha64 anyone?
2015-02-19T23:21:38Z jsnell: username: jsnell
2015-02-19T23:21:57Z Xof: "Please provide usernames of users with profiles only."
2015-02-19T23:21:58Z Xof: suck
2015-02-19T23:22:09Z Xof: have you created a new account?  You don't get to reuse the same one
2015-02-19T23:23:05Z jsnell: I love this system
2015-02-19T23:23:20Z jsnell: give me a couple of minutes (he said full of optimism)
2015-02-19T23:23:21Z stassats: how different is ppc64 from ppc32 anyway?
2015-02-19T23:24:34Z Xof: You do get to reuse the same user name though
2015-02-19T23:24:35Z jsnell: Xof: give it another go?
2015-02-19T23:25:10Z Xof: I have pressed the button!
2015-02-19T23:25:17Z Xof: I think you now have to press a button somewhere
2015-02-19T23:25:25Z Xof: but other than that: stick a fork in it, it's done
2015-02-19T23:25:56Z Xof: I can't believe I hand-edited org-mode-generated HTML this evening; nor can I believe that it was probably faster than trying to find the original org-mode file
2015-02-19T23:26:15Z jsnell: Role Granted by Organization Organization Administrator
2015-02-19T23:26:19Z jsnell: Actual Role No Role
2015-02-19T23:26:20Z jsnell: hm
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2015-02-19T23:26:53Z Xof: if you go to your connection summary can you accept the role?
2015-02-19T23:27:15Z jsnell: yes, except it's not called accepting but requesting which was the confusing bit
2015-02-19T23:27:27Z Xof: to the rest of you: this is still the best social network Google has ever produced
2015-02-19T23:27:50Z Xof: grand.  Thanks
2015-02-19T23:32:39Z stassats: curiosly, the Power ISA manual contains an except from Gulliver’s Travels, but no decription of difference between 32-bit and 64-bit instructions
2015-02-19T23:35:50Z stassats: maybe there are just none
2015-02-19T23:40:37Z stassats: disassembling different gcc code suggets that there are no differences
2015-02-19T23:45:39Z stassats: so, can we get around by not duplicating compiler/ppc?
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