00:00:08 and Helmut is admittedly very active on slime, so he gets to decide 00:00:49 fe[nl]ix: a fork is only useful if there's a critical mass behind it. Fare also seemed to be interested in a more open repo... and while we are at it, i've already "forked" it, although git with its rebasing is... 00:01:47 well, there's conium 00:02:36 Heller was very active also in removing just about anything i've touched. including the dwim inspecting changes, which is so much better than the HEAD way... or the repl history navigation... but whatever 00:02:46 *attila_lendvai* googles for conium instead 00:02:54 lichtblau's swank fork for hemlick 00:02:56 *hemlock 00:04:25 great! i'll look into how usable hemlock is... 00:04:37 not much 00:04:38 *attila_lendvai* clones conium 00:04:41 :/ 00:04:49 it needs a *lot* of work 00:04:57 ... That reminds me, I should try using Hemlock again one of these days. 00:05:01 i'd be interested in a fork/alternative if it was based on some fundamentally different idea 00:05:04 Hopefully it won't be too poisonous. 00:05:24 like structured editing 00:05:25 stassats: different in what way ? 00:05:48 I would have contributed to a SLIME fork once upon a time, as long as the forkers actually believed in *releases*. Or at least a sensible stable branch that works with recently released versions of SBCL. 00:06:20 i'm almost already editing structurally... to the extent paredit and emacs lets me with standard and custom key bindings 00:07:09 well, the HEAD of my fork always worked on sbcl HEAD 00:08:29 but has it always worked? 00:08:34 but no, i don't believe in releases when it's about a software that is written to help programmers develop software... learn using a VCS, it's much better than any releasing... 00:09:20 well, somewhat stable tags might help 00:09:22 Nonsense. Learning to use a VCS does not help me figure out how to use a version of SLIME that suddenly changed the world and doesn't actually work correctly. 00:09:22 if there was any demand i could easily tag the repo with sbcl-1.0.3.4, etc 00:09:51 chandler: if you don't want to get new behavior, then stop pulling. 00:10:38 And stop upgrading SBCL. 00:10:43 attila_lendvai: it's not that simple 00:10:57 *Fare* has to seriously prepare his ASDF talk for ILC, but has no clue what to say but a rehash of what's in the paper. 00:11:31 if slime used darcs, then even having branches for separate sbcl versions would be easy. just pull the fixes needed, tag with sbcl-some.old.version and pull the tag into head 00:11:32 attila_lendvai: new behavior is not the only incentive to update, bug fixes is another 00:11:41 I'd go for a monthly release schedule synchronised with SBCL's, and a guarantee that it works with the last N SBCL releases 00:12:01 VCS versus tarballs is irrelevant to this discussion. Those are just implementation details. The question is whether there is actually a stable, tested version of the software that works with relatively recent stable releases of the popular Common Lisp implementations. 00:12:02 with N=6, perhaps 00:12:23 slime currently works with at least two years old SBCL 00:12:53 That wasn't always the case, but it's good. 00:12:53 stassats: What about two hours old SBCL? 00:13:11 stassats: see my note above about darcs. as long as the fixes don't touch the same lines or depend on new behavior, the VCS can take care of it. otherwise it's maintainer effort to keep backport fixes into old branches... 00:14:07 nyef: only with twelve hours old 00:14:37 chandler: slime HEAD always gets fixed to work with SBCL HEAD in a day or two at most... i don't know what you mean. tags and VCS'es just make the process simple enough that someone will do it from the people who can touch the internals of slime 00:15:26 But does SLIME HEAD always *work*? 00:15:38 yes, unless it's broken 00:15:44 Heh. Good answer. 00:15:46 chandler: mostly. but it brings back to tagging again... 00:16:08 ...or branching if it was darcs. 00:16:33 Right. What good is a programming tool that doesn't actually work if I want to use it on the latest released (and actually working) SBCL? 00:16:38 in any case somebody should test it 00:17:04 attila_lendvai: I would honestly not join a project that uses darcs 00:17:13 The "programming tools shouldn't be released" philosophy is basically saying "proramming tools don't actually need to work". 00:17:40 fe[nl]ix: hear, hear! 00:17:51 good thing slime uses CVS! 00:17:53 Anyway, needs food badly. 00:18:55 fe[nl]ix: i find git utterly annoying sometimes compared to darcs (modulo its bugs), but i don't care... it's not about feelings, but getting things done. i still chose darcs for my own projects, but avoid it when a diverging fork is expected (like with slime) 00:19:50 chandler: noone said they shouldn't be released. what i've said is that they should be tagged as opposed to creating tarballs, because it's so much easier on the maintainer that it may even be done 00:20:13 and so much more flexible 00:20:53 the main problem with releases is cross-checking in all possible configurations 00:21:24 currently it's done by the users, but if everyone will be using stable versions, it'd be harder 00:28:19 attila_lendvai: That's a crock. It really isn't hard to have a script to do the tag, create the tarball, upload it where it needs to go, /et cetera/. Or a cron job to check for a new tag, create the tarball, /et cetera/. 00:28:36 Maintainer burden: Just about the same as creating the tag, most of the time. 00:30:13 nyef: seems like my trashold when it comes to scripts and their maintenance is much lower than yours... especially when i even as a user prefer VCS'es to tarballs... 00:30:56 new term: thrashold. I like it. 00:31:36 slyrus__: No, it's "trashold". 00:31:55 Not the point at which you want to beat it up, the point at which you want to throw it out. 00:32:48 heh, that wasn't intentional... :) 00:33:43 *attila_lendvai* needs to sleep 00:45:38 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:46:33 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:49:13 My poor brain! It's full of LAMBDA-PHYSENVs and IR2-PHYSENVs and LAMBDA-VAR-INDIRECTs! 00:49:53 I'm going to go GC it. I'll be back tomorrow. 00:49:56 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-70-109-147-129.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 00:55:38 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #sbcl 01:09:33 Not creating tarballs just pushes the burden to new users. The amount of time it takes to check out a project using one of the modern DVCSes is substantially more than the amount of time it takes to fetch and unpack a tarball. If you don't care about having new users, it's understandable that tarballs aren't worth the (trivial) amount of effort. 01:09:38 Oh, he's gone. 01:10:35 i think the making of releases is trivial compared to actually testing them 01:36:39 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:46:40 chandler: I beg to disagree 01:46:57 with a modern vcs, you copy/paste the git clone line, and there you are 01:47:46 with a tarball, you must download it to a staging area, unpack it (praying it isn't all there in the current directory, or cleaning afterwards, or yet another staging area), then decide what to do with the tarball afterwards. 01:47:51 tarballs are EVIL. 02:24:35 The_Jon_Smith [~The_Jon_S@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #sbcl 02:40:07 Fare: In all of that time, git will still be putting its shoes on. 02:40:20 Even if you use the option to only fetch the last revision (I forget what it's called). 02:42:09 git clone --depth 1? 02:51:58 time git clone git://github.com/gnooth/xcl.git => 27 sec (real) 02:52:16 time wget http://armedbear.org/xcl-0.0.0.291.tar.gz => 19 sec (real) 02:52:41 git doesn't take very long to put its shoes on 02:53:18 -!- skalawag [~user@c75-111-102-202.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:53:30 (not that I'd argue against releasing tarballs, but git being slow just isn't a problem) 03:31:12 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-236-50.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Error: do not makunbound t please!] 04:38:22 -!- The_Jon_Smith [~The_Jon_S@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has left #sbcl 06:34:31 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #sbcl 06:50:30 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #sbcl 07:00:02 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:18:09 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:56:46 -!- flip214 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#sbcl 15:23:18 nyef: it doesn't look bad to me -- i do wish we had gabor's tests from 1.0.27.17 to compare the performance with, though 15:26:00 and a local function that's globally accessible (e.g. passed as a closure to an unknown function) isn't local anymore, right? 15:26:46 it gets a xep, yes 15:27:51 but it also doesn't get called with a local convention anymore? 15:30:33 it doesn't: the xep gets the global convention, and IIRC so do the rest of the call sites -- but i also think that we should be able to make the rest retain the local one if we wanted 15:31:13 I'm less convinced, particularly with respect to the closureish bits of the local-call convention. 15:31:57 ? 15:32:40 Local-calls do the closure environment setup (reading the values out of the closure) at the call site. 15:33:09 Of course, at this point there's no actual closure object, but it's still possible code duplication if there are multiple calls. 15:33:21 right, but the call site ends up inside the xep 15:33:24 nikodemus: also, multiple return values 15:33:42 we'd need something like a call from the xep into the local function. 15:34:07 unless i'm misunderstanding what we're talking about, that is the way things currently work 15:34:59 really? When I call an external closure, I'm just calling a trampoline that sets up args and return values and calls into a local function? 15:35:16 I thought the second call was inlined, and everything had to use the global convention instead. 15:36:01 There's no second call, the BIND node is emitted completely differently. 15:36:10 look at REFERENCE-ENTRY-POINT -> MAKE-XEP path. inlining the local function inside the xep is a secondary question 15:58:07 -!- blabla [~lisps@stargate.fs.uni-lj.si] has quit [Quit: blabla] 16:16:22 -!- mega1 [~quassel@pool-01229.externet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:54:30 You know you've got a kludge on your hands when you put a reference to SB!VM::RBP-TN in ir2tran. 17:53:15 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:39:35 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #sbcl 18:39:35 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o nikodemus 19:25:10 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #sbcl 21:09:35 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #sbcl 21:11:15 nikodemus: hi! thanks for the patches. i've just considered dropping you a mail on how to optimize your time... i'm very grateful for the patches! but a headsup would be just fine... 21:12:22 ok. i just noticed that xach has both plain stefil and hu.dwim.stefil in quicklisp -- and the first has the same issue, of course 21:13:18 ok, will deal with the obsolete stefil, too 21:13:19 don't know if he should drop old stefil or if it should be patched -- but it does break with new alexandria 21:13:24 thanks! 21:27:51 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:34:44 attila_lendvai, how will you deal with it? 21:35:00 I'd say - drop the old one, migrate to the new one. 21:35:30 Fare: sure, i've just deleted the ensure-list flets... 21:35:48 and it's ensure-list... not much magic there to be concerned about... :) 21:37:17 can you do the upgrading of babel, cffi, and whoever else uses the old stefil? 21:39:18 Fare: heh, i wanted to argue that people might be annoyed by the extra dependencies of hu.dwim.stefil... but i've double checked and since then i took care of it, just forgot... :) it only depends on alexandria now. so, i'll do it. 21:39:19 in quicklisp they are: babel, cl-heredoc, cl-m4, evol, graylex, lisp-on-lines, rolf, and ucw.core 21:40:27 nikodemus pasted "quicklisp tools for testing" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/115552 21:41:02 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:41:05 *attila_lendvai* extends his notes.txt 21:46:00 tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #sbcl 21:48:39 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #sbcl 21:48:39 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o nikodemus 21:50:13 -!- Krystof [~csr21@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:53:33 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 22:04:31 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:10:11 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:15:51 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:16:28 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:17:54 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #sbcl 22:30:32 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:38:19 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:38:43 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #sbcl 23:09:01 -!- tsuru [~charlie@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:29:34 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:51:51 -!- kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: kclifton]