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06:40:25 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has left #sbcl 06:54:47 ASau [~user@77.246.230.215] has joined #sbcl 07:13:58 cmpitg [~cmpitg@118.71.132.157] has joined #sbcl 08:09:06 -!- cmpitg [~cmpitg@118.71.132.157] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 08:10:11 cmpitg [~cmpitg@118.71.132.157] has joined #sbcl 08:21:57 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #sbcl 08:22:28 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #sbcl 08:24:36 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Client Quit] 08:34:06 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #sbcl 08:34:11 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o nikodemus 08:36:30 good morning 09:02:42 tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #sbcl 09:15:37 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-134-25-199.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #sbcl 09:21:49 -!- cmpitg [~cmpitg@118.71.132.157] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:35:17 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-153-145.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:24:16 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #sbcl 10:56:40 Blkt [~user@93-33-140-115.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has joined #sbcl 11:02:41 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-178-112.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #sbcl 11:11:30 Krystof [~csr21@nat67.mia.three.co.uk] has joined #sbcl 11:11:30 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Krystof 11:33:41 "How long have you been using SBCL?" 11:33:47 "slightly more than 10 years" :-) 11:39:02 nyef [~nyef@pool-70-20-56-192.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #sbcl 11:39:11 G'morning all. 11:40:46 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-134-25-199.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:51:07 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:52:58 -!- Krystof [~csr21@nat67.mia.three.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:53:49 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-178-112.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 11:57:11 hargettp 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has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:00:56 -!- kclifton_ is now known as kclifton 15:03:55 minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #sbcl 15:04:25 specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #sbcl 15:10:01 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #sbcl 15:24:10 http://random-state.net/sbcl-survey-2010-results.html # ages and countries so far 15:26:18 interesting 15:33:37 Mmm. Lot of 26 and 30 year old users. 15:34:37 and drop at 31 15:34:55 And nobody older than 62. 15:40:15 added experience summaries 15:42:38 and how many answers so fat? 15:43:58 hmm, majority of the users have 10-20 years of programming experience... 15:47:35 interesting that Germany stands out in Europe 15:49:28 germans are very disciplined, so all of them have answered the survey 15:49:41 unlike russians, probably! 15:53:34 I haven't :-) 15:53:36 hmph. i obviously should have offered a checkbox field for "how do you install sbcl" -- lots of "Other" answers that mostly say "a bit of this and a bit of that" 15:53:48 pain to canonicalize 15:55:00 emerge installs from cvs? 15:55:51 ... Wouldn't entirely surprise me, it's the kind of utterly-stupid thing Gentoo would do. 15:56:28 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:58:34 why stupid ? 16:00:30 "We have release engineering. Pulling directly from CVS bypasses that process unless they pull a specific tag, at which point why the heck not just download the tarball?" 16:01:14 hey, should sbcl on linux-ppc build with ccl trunk? 16:01:15 but we don't *really* have release engineering 16:01:40 tokenrove: Never tried it, why? 16:02:10 oh, it's broken for me, and before sorting out whether it's something to do with my setup or whatever, i figured i'd ask 16:02:30 (normally i rebuild with sbcl, but i had to compile on a new machine. it built fine with clisp.) 16:03:00 Hmm. In -principle-, SBCL is supposed to build from any ansi-compliant common lisp. 16:03:02 anyway, i'll take a look at it and if it's an sbcl problem, i'll try to fix it and submit a patch. 16:03:29 You didn't do anything crazy like try to disable unicode or anything, did you? 16:03:37 nyef: some people like using HEAD, so I added an ebuild that does just that 16:03:42 nothing changed from the defaults 16:03:46 And if you're building on linux-ppc, please tell me you enabled threading? 16:03:56 nyef: it needs to be explicitly enabled, so I don't see the problem 16:04:11 fe[nl]ix: Okay, that's a bit more reasonable. 16:04:26 i certainly could enable threading. actually, i meant to be testing it ever since you announced support, but i haven't had time lately. 16:07:22 rmarynch [~roman@88.135.194.233] has joined #sbcl 16:15:31 drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #sbcl 16:19:53 -!- kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:20:06 kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has joined #sbcl 16:24:01 -!- ASau [~user@77.246.230.215] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:42:00 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #sbcl 16:50:55 added versions in use to results -- this one is pretty inaccurate, since lots of people reported the results in pretty haphazard way 16:52:31 hmm, geographic distribution changed dramatically, doesn't look plausible 16:53:18 hm, my canonnicalization must have broken 16:53:22 *nikodemus* recodes 17:00:02 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-178-112.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #sbcl 17:05:41 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:05:53 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #sbcl 17:29:43 fixed 18:28:27 ASau [~user@77.246.230.186] has joined #sbcl 18:35:42 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-182-202-208.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:36:56 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-182-202-208.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #sbcl 18:39:42 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #sbcl 18:41:32 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Disconnected by services] 18:41:32 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #sbcl 18:41:32 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 18:53:39 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-178-112.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 19:02:30 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 19:02:44 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #sbcl 19:15:56 jga [~gajon@201.103.221.148] has joined #sbcl 19:19:58 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:21:02 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Disconnected by services] 19:21:02 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #sbcl 19:21:03 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 19:26:13 It seems that fixing this bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/308945 makes three SBCL contribs fail to build. They contain loops which fails to compile with the error "iteration in LOOP follows body code". Should I fix these contribs, or just providing the bug fix is enough? 19:27:41 Yes, fix the contribs. 19:29:15 I have already fixed ntrace.lisp, which uses that same wrong clauses order... Okay, I will look into the contribs too 19:42:27 Wait you're making sbcl's loop stricter than it used to be? 19:42:35 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:44:34 tcr: yep, just as that bug requires to do. No more FOR after WHILE! :) 19:45:04 Uh people actually voted for that endeavor? 19:45:40 the bug is confirmed since 2008 19:45:43 It's perfectly in character: SBCL is -supposed- to be pedantic. 19:45:56 So what for after while is just deadly convenient 19:45:58 alas, i used to depend on that behavior once upon a time. but it makes sense to fix it. 19:46:08 portable workaround are plain ugly 19:47:19 why? Just reorder the clauses where they are in a wrong order 19:47:30 rmarynch: see the example on that bug! 19:48:13 tcr: if you don't like it then uhhh....fix the spec? ;p 19:51:01 Remember, the spec tells us that (simple-array nil (*)) is a string! 19:51:21 foom: the fix will cause a full error, not a warning. So, I agree that it adds some problems 19:51:22 And SBCL actually implements it, unlike many other implementations. 19:52:05 *rmarynch* fixing the last contrib 19:54:07 rmarynch: right, but the order of the clauses is important. it's not enough to just reorder the clauses to get rid of the error. 19:54:16 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-178-112.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #sbcl 19:54:55 SBCL is not only pedantic it's quite some time anal-retentive :-) 19:55:28 Should have been part of the survey 19:55:34 most annoying "features" 19:56:14 tokenrove: the fix do not reorder anything, it just prohibits any iteration clauses after WHILE 19:56:42 or, more generally, after a loop main body is emitted 19:56:43 he meant to fix unportable loop code 19:58:28 tcr: I do not push this fix into the codebase. I just fix LOOP issues this week. In case it is a "bad feature", I can give up, let us wait for some other volunteer 20:00:14 I'm actually undecided myself what to think of it 20:01:41 I'd like an easy way to say "Use SBCL LOOP" rather than ANSI loop, which would also include multiple value binding, and sequence traversing 20:01:41 all i'm saying is, use caution in fixing the contribs since usually whenever i wrote unportable loop code like that, it wasn't a simple matter of reordering the clauses to fix it. it's a good thing that sbcl will now be pedantic about it, it would have saved me plenty of time puzzling over that stuff as i ported things to other implementations. 20:02:12 I'd suggest making it a warning for a while, rather than an error. 20:02:35 considering how long it's been like this, and in how many other implementations it works the same way as in SBCL. 20:02:39 how is a warning better with asdf's behaviour on sbcl? 20:02:51 so you can manually muffle it? 20:02:51 you can silence a warning 20:02:53 yea 20:03:03 then make sure to give it a proper name :-) 20:03:57 I have a compromise. Let me upload the patch to LP, and then everybody is welcome to review and comment on the issue page. Maybe this patch is totally wrong (I am not a LOOP expert at least) 20:04:09 foom: incidentally, which other implementations have the same behavior as sbcl? 20:05:11 tokenrove: I've not tested, but I'm going to guess all of them but clisp. 20:05:49 i remember having issues with multiple implementations, but i just noticed ccl compiles at least the example given just fine. 20:05:54 tokenrove: Most implementations, including SBCL, use code derived from the MIT LOOP. 20:05:57 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #sbcl 20:05:57 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o nikodemus 20:10:29 Krystof [~csr21@nat79.mia.three.co.uk] has joined #sbcl 20:10:29 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Krystof 20:17:38 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:18:37 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #sbcl 20:18:51 nyef: i've actually wondered how it would work if every developer had their own public git tree, and release manager was responsible for pulling 20:19:50 what's the advantage? 20:19:53 nikodemus: that would require a different release engineering 20:20:03 Yeah, that'd really affect releng. 20:20:18 indeed 20:20:22 Also require the release manager to be basically on top of things to get everything integrated in a timely fashion. 20:20:41 i'm not proposing it -- just a gedankenexperiment 20:21:25 tcr: somewhat enforced patch review 20:21:41 it would be interesting to see how it works out 20:22:16 I really like the idea of a workflow based on a code-review system, like gerrit 20:22:23 One upside is that it wouldn't require so much in the way of crazy scripts to get the version number thing, if we decide to keep it. 20:22:34 Unfortunately I've not set one up yet, so I don't know how well it'd actually work out 20:22:38 the patch is there, but without contribs - I am afraid to break them. I wonder whether the approach is correct at all (see the code!) 20:22:38 (Then again, said crazy scripts have already been written.) 20:22:40 but it seems like it would be good. :) 20:23:33 when i followed git-devel i was impressed with the way they use acks for patch review 20:24:05 Like on lkml? 20:24:06 I think that might work better if someone were doing sbcl full-time 20:24:51 nyef: i haven't followed lkml in ages, so not sure -- but i suppose so 20:25:08 mind you, just about anything would work better if someone were doing sbcl full-time 20:25:15 Heh. 20:25:27 code review systems++ 20:25:50 jsnell has lots of experience with them by now. :) 20:25:56 well, at least my experience with them has been very positive. I don't know how well they'd work in open source 20:26:35 well, the Twisted python framework has a policy of code review of everything that lands on trunk, and it works out fine. I'm sure it'd be even fine-er with tool help. 20:27:01 it can certainly delay commits, but that's not such a big deal. 20:27:28 And the linux kernel has each patch reviewed by at least a couple people before it goes in. 20:27:56 Yea, but the linux kernel is full of ppl who work on it full time for their job; not quite the same thing. 20:28:06 That's true enough. 20:28:54 i expect that even a minimal review in the sense of "i've read the patch, i think i mostly understand it, it seems sane and there are no obvious issues that i can see" would have an effect 20:32:21 I'm not even that worried about reviewing everything by existing committers (though it couldn't hurt), but it should be a nice workflow for external patches 20:33:30 has the ITA purchase actually happened yet? 20:33:37 no 20:34:12 still pending regulatory approval 20:34:27 in the land of the free!? 20:34:32 I think there were recently some hearings at whatever government department ended up getting jurisdiction 20:34:38 you guys don't have enough arms 20:34:57 Krystof: Two per person on average isn't enough? 20:35:23 slightly under two, I would expect 20:35:32 Google is large enough that for substantial purchases, they have to show that it won't be anti-competitive. 20:36:00 Nah, the people who lost one is made up for by the NRA members. 20:36:51 (solution: Google buys up the competition before they get to the point of being a "substantial purchase".) 20:37:57 Yep, perfectly legal, at least as I understand the law. 20:38:11 -!- rmarynch [~roman@88.135.194.233] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:39:09 lucky ITA was still small enough to be bought for chump change 20:42:19 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:49:22 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-178-112.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 20:53:23 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-178-112.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #sbcl 20:55:08 -!- jga [~gajon@201.103.221.148] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:02:38 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #sbcl 21:02:48 Is there an exported function I'm missing to convert from unix to universal time? 21:03:34 adding sb-impl::unix-to-universal-time myself feels like underneath can likely change on a whimp :-) 21:04:02 -!- Krystof [~csr21@nat79.mia.three.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:09:23 jga [~gajon@189.253.66.20] has joined #sbcl 21:09:43 tcr: no, i don't think we have an exported one 21:09:56 but given that sb-ext:get-time-of-day exists, we possibly should 21:11:11 tcr: i'll rename it and export it 21:12:49 hm, what's a good name? +time-of-day-offset-seconds+? 21:15:53 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:17:58 Why not make it a function? 21:18:09 unix-to-universal-time 21:20:58 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:32:18 tcr: because if it is a constant it is trivial to also go from universal to unix-time 21:32:59 Oh, just expose both functions. 21:33:18 we don't even have them internally 21:33:27 ... pity. 21:33:34 make it baroque coerce-time :-) 21:34:01 Heh. 21:40:36 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-178-112.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 21:41:03 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:08:38 -!- Blkt [~user@93-33-140-115.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:08:57 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-178-112.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #sbcl 22:09:09 -!- minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:09:44 -!- The_Jon_Smith [~The_Jon_S@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has left #sbcl 22:35:33 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-178-112.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 22:45:52 -!- Xof [~crhodes@158.223.51.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:46:06 Xof [~crhodes@158.223.51.79] has joined #sbcl 22:46:06 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xof 23:19:36 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-3-220.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #sbcl 23:25:19 -!- kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: kclifton] 23:49:31 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-92-3-220.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #sbcl 23:51:06 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-3-220.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]