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2021-05-01T00:05:50Z jcowan: pjb: Quite so.  But if there is no indirection, then you have to find and change all existing references to the string if you are extending it past the original allocation.  That is equivalent to GC.
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2021-05-01T00:20:57Z perdent: no-defun-allowed: new link to socket_interface.py: https://pastebin.com/DdTx2dWs
2021-05-01T00:24:47Z pjb: jcowan: indeed. On Macintosh OS, most heap objects were referenced via Handlers which were indirect pointers. So the Memory Manager could move them updating only the pointer, and not the handle which could be copied in other objects or variables.
2021-05-01T00:25:44Z pjb: a lisp implementation could easily use handles to refer objects, instead of direct pointers, if that helped the memory manager/garbage collector.
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2021-05-01T00:26:30Z White_Flame: and indirecting through symbols to find values/functions sort of does that already
2021-05-01T00:27:03Z pjb: yep
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2021-05-01T00:33:45Z andreyorst[m]: does anybody know any clever semi-nontrivial yet somewhat short examples of condition system usage? I'm porting CL's condition system to Lua, and wanted to make sure I got everything right. Example from the Practical common Lisp book works, and a bunch from the lisp wiki too, so if anyone can link some more examples it would be helpful. Thanks!
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2021-05-01T02:21:57Z jeosol: Recently discovered C-c x for slime-export-symbol-at-point and it updates the (:export ...) section of the package with the symbol
2021-05-01T02:22:13Z jeosol: Definitely beats going up and down and typing the symbols yourself ... :-)
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2021-05-01T02:50:28Z stylewarning: Do people use CLSQL for non-PG DBs?
2021-05-01T02:50:46Z stylewarning: jeosol: wow, how convenient
2021-05-01T02:52:14Z dieggsy: jeosol: sweet
2021-05-01T02:52:22Z astronavt: great idea
2021-05-01T02:53:04Z no-defun-allowed: stylewarning: I considered it once. Does that count? :)
2021-05-01T02:54:00Z stylewarning: no-defun-allowed: it counts as 5% of one vote
2021-05-01T02:54:01Z jeosol: stylewarning: I did use it with postgresql but with comments that it's bit-rotted, I moved away. I didn't have much problems though for my simple use-case
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2021-05-01T02:55:41Z stylewarning: Maybe I’ll consider some NoSQL option. My use-case is lightweight
2021-05-01T02:56:24Z jeosol: btw, I was hoping to have a conversion with you guys about productivity coding with Lisp. It's a beauty working with slime and all. As some of you know, I am working a large physics application for a few years. I once described it to someone during a work meeting, he said there is no way I wrote all that code in the time I said. By the way, he is
2021-05-01T02:56:25Z jeosol: not so much a software person, but seems to think it's impossible to do
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2021-05-01T02:58:54Z no-defun-allowed: "Be realistic, demand the impossible!"
2021-05-01T02:59:40Z no-defun-allowed: (Unless it is undecidable, in which case you should rethink your project.)
2021-05-01T03:01:30Z jeosol: no-defun-allowed: was that in response to my comment:
2021-05-01T03:01:39Z no-defun-allowed: Yes.
2021-05-01T03:03:49Z jeosol: I have already written the code - using CLOS mostly. Thanks to working though Sonja's book early one.
2021-05-01T03:04:53Z jeosol: In my case, I was rewriting more robust versions of graduate school codes. Started with matlab, then C++, then finally to lisp
2021-05-01T03:06:06Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-05-01T03:07:49Z stelleonard: I do rather like lisp for symbol processing
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2021-05-01T03:08:15Z mister_m: Is it possible to use a parameter list like (:a 1 :b 2) as keyword arguments to an invocation of make-instance?
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2021-05-01T03:10:00Z no-defun-allowed: (apply #'make-instance 'some-class '(:a 1 :b 2))
2021-05-01T03:10:20Z mister_m: very nice thanks
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2021-05-01T03:38:24Z mister_m: hm I am trying to create a property list to use with make-instance by reading input from a file, and using, for example, (list (make-symbol "input") "value") as a property list for the &rest portion of (apply #'make-instance 'my-class ...), but the resulting initarg is invalid. My class has a slot with an :initarg of :input, but the symbol I end up with as a result of make-symbol is #:|input| and doesn't seem to be compatible. How can I
2021-05-01T03:38:24Z mister_m: get a symbol compatible with my class's :initarg value?
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2021-05-01T03:39:41Z beach: (intern (string-upcase "initarg") (find-package "KEYWORD"))
2021-05-01T03:39:47Z beach: Something like that.
2021-05-01T03:41:34Z beach: clhs make-symbol
2021-05-01T03:41:34Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_sym.htm
2021-05-01T03:42:07Z beach: mister_m: You have two problems.  First, using make-symbol creates an uninterned symbol, but what you need is a symbol in the keyword package.
2021-05-01T03:42:36Z beach: mister_m: Second, even though you would write :input, the name of the symbol is in upper-case.
2021-05-01T03:42:54Z mister_m: I see, I didn't realize I couldn't use an uninterned symbol
2021-05-01T03:42:56Z beach: mister_m: So you first have to upcase the string and then intern it in the keyword package.
2021-05-01T03:43:10Z mister_m: makes sense, thank you
2021-05-01T03:43:16Z beach: Oh, you can use an uninterned symbol, but it won't be the symbol :input.
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2021-05-01T03:44:13Z beach: When you write :input, that means a specific symbol in the keyword package, and trying a completely different one to pass to MAKE-INSTANCE just won't work.
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2021-05-01T03:44:35Z pjb: and you would have the difficulty of using the same uninterned symbol: you'd have to keep a reference of it at compilation time (when the initarg is defined) and at run-time when it's used.
2021-05-01T03:45:48Z pjb: (let ((k (make-symbol "input")))  #|runtime class:|# (eval `(defclass koo () ((input :initarg ,k :accessor input))))  (let ((o (make-instance 'koo k 42) )) (input o))) #| --> 42 |#
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2021-05-01T08:56:41Z h4ck3r9696: is it possible to implement common lisp like exception handling with scheme continuations?
2021-05-01T08:57:44Z phoe: h4ck3r9696: you'd need to express the CL non-local jump operators with continuations
2021-05-01T08:57:54Z phoe: along with unwind-protect
2021-05-01T08:57:58Z phoe: everything else can be built on top of that
2021-05-01T08:58:00Z beach: h4ck3r9696: Read phoe's book.  All you need is a construct for non-local control transfer, and perhaps special variables.
2021-05-01T08:58:50Z phoe: and/or watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4P9lFK79hQ
2021-05-01T08:58:52Z beach: I am pretty sure first-class continuations could be used for non-local control transfer.
2021-05-01T08:59:50Z beach: h4ck3r9696: And I really like the terminology that phoe created, i.e., calling it "exceptions" only when they are dumb like in most languages, and "conditions" when they are like those in Common Lisp.
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2021-05-01T09:09:42Z h4ck3r9696: okay, thanks, i'll look into it!
2021-05-01T09:10:25Z ChoHag: h4ck3r9696: Bear in mind that scheme's continuations are undelimited and drag along the whole computation.
2021-05-01T09:11:14Z Nilby: In scheme terms, you need catch, throw, and dynmaic-wind. You could use continuations if you assume infinite stack or every function is pure and tail recursive.
2021-05-01T09:11:43Z h4ck3r9696: I know, i'm making myown scheme and i wanted to make it more lisp-like
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2021-05-01T09:16:41Z beach: Oh, YAY, another implementation!
2021-05-01T09:17:27Z h4ck3r9696: it's just for fun
2021-05-01T09:17:37Z beach: Sure.  A toy.
2021-05-01T09:17:40Z beach: Right?
2021-05-01T09:17:52Z h4ck3r9696: like anything that isn't SBCL
2021-05-01T09:18:18Z beach: Is there something wrong with SBCL?
2021-05-01T09:18:38Z h4ck3r9696: it's the only lisp implementation that matters
2021-05-01T09:18:57Z beach: That's a bold statement.
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2021-05-01T09:20:21Z Nilby: Look at srfi-12 it says
2021-05-01T09:20:30Z Nilby: "This SRFI cannot be fully implemented in R5RS because it requires special support from the system,"
2021-05-01T09:21:45Z h4ck3r9696: i can tweak the interpreter, so i don't think it will be problematic to implement
2021-05-01T09:22:44Z Nilby: but it also says: "defines an exception system whose essence can be implemented with CALL-WITH-CURRENT-CONTINUATION"
2021-05-01T09:22:50Z beach: h4ck3r9696: So your implementation is based on an interpreter?
2021-05-01T09:23:02Z h4ck3r9696: yes, a toy for now
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2021-05-01T09:23:30Z h4ck3r9696: but i'm planning to create a native compiler
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2021-05-01T09:23:59Z h4ck3r9696: Nibly: Well, that's good
2021-05-01T09:24:24Z beach: h4ck3r9696: And you are doing this in order to learn how, yes?
2021-05-01T09:24:35Z h4ck3r9696: i'm making a game
2021-05-01T09:24:46Z h4ck3r9696: and i needed a scripting language
2021-05-01T09:25:04Z h4ck3r9696: so i thought, why not make my own?
2021-05-01T09:25:27Z beach: And what language is the game written in?
2021-05-01T09:25:32Z h4ck3r9696: in C
2021-05-01T09:25:42Z beach: Why not Common Lisp?
2021-05-01T09:25:56Z beach: Then you wouldn't need a separate scripting language.
2021-05-01T09:26:05Z h4ck3r9696: because i want a small memory footprint
2021-05-01T09:26:10Z Nilby: srfi-34 basically calls catch+sepcials=guard and throw->raise
2021-05-01T09:26:44Z v0|d: beach:  another day another implementation :)
2021-05-01T09:26:56Z beach: h4ck3r9696: And why is that?  And how small?
2021-05-01T09:27:16Z beach: v0|d: Yes, I am always curious about people's reasons for this kind of stuff.
2021-05-01T09:27:31Z v0|d: gambit-c was pretty small.
2021-05-01T09:27:41Z h4ck3r9696: beach: the less memory used by the language, the more can be used for other things
2021-05-01T09:27:57Z h4ck3r9696: but i'm really doing it to learn programming language desing
2021-05-01T09:28:07Z h4ck3r9696: *design
2021-05-01T09:28:14Z v0|d: h4ck3r9696: try reading the compilers source.
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2021-05-01T09:28:36Z v0|d: you'll have more fun and more to learn.
2021-05-01T09:28:52Z h4ck3r9696: i don't think i'm fluent enough in common lisp to read the sbcl source code
2021-05-01T09:29:03Z v0|d: h4ck3r9696: try ecl
2021-05-01T09:29:07Z v0|d: h4ck3r9696: if you are into C.
2021-05-01T09:29:11Z beach: v0|d: And more feelings of horror. :)
2021-05-01T09:29:25Z h4ck3r9696: i'll try that
2021-05-01T09:29:32Z phoe: >the more can be used for other things
2021-05-01T09:29:38Z v0|d: beach: yep only the horror belongs to somebody else :p
2021-05-01T09:29:44Z beach: True.
2021-05-01T09:29:52Z phoe: h4ck3r9696: the less time you spend writing your own code, the more can be used for other things too
2021-05-01T09:30:09Z phoe: and debugging implementations is a major pain in the butt, especially on the low level
2021-05-01T09:30:30Z v0|d: I can't make any of students read a codebase, everybody is into writing something.
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2021-05-01T09:30:48Z beach: I think it's fine to write an implementation of something like Scheme in order to learn about compiler design.
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2021-05-01T09:31:33Z h4ck3r9696: but common lisp might be too slow for what i want
2021-05-01T09:31:57Z h4ck3r9696: i need fast 3D matrix multiplication
2021-05-01T09:31:58Z beach: But the other reasons were not so convincing.
2021-05-01T09:32:20Z ChoHag: h4ck3r9696: There is cffi.
2021-05-01T09:32:23Z phoe: h4ck3r9696: then get a library that does fast matrix multiplication
2021-05-01T09:32:29Z v0|d: h4ck3r9696: fortran/lapack?
2021-05-01T09:32:36Z beach: h4ck3r9696: It would be way more efficient to write a C or assembly routine for a major Common Lisp implementation, than to resort to C for the entire thing.
2021-05-01T09:32:37Z phoe: mfiano wrote one of them AFAIK, and he's writing games in CL
2021-05-01T09:32:54Z Nilby: If you want small memory footprint you could use pdp1 lisp. It used about 8k.
2021-05-01T09:32:57Z phoe: which I guess is some definition for fast enough matrix multiplication
2021-05-01T09:33:04Z beach: h4ck3r9696: That is why I said that your "learning" reason is fine, but the others are way less convincing.
2021-05-01T09:33:16Z h4ck3r9696: yep, i guess so
2021-05-01T09:33:37Z h4ck3r9696: but for the moment, i'm not good enough at common lisp to make a big project
2021-05-01T09:33:47Z h4ck3r9696: that basically the main reason
2021-05-01T09:33:51Z h4ck3r9696: *that's
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2021-05-01T09:34:16Z phoe: time to learn then!
2021-05-01T09:34:27Z beach: h4ck3r9696: I say, don't let anyone tell you what you can and can not do.  But also, don't fool yourself with bogus arguments.
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2021-05-01T09:35:22Z beach: h4ck3r9696: I mean, it takes way less time to learn Common Lisp than to implement a scheme compiler for the purpose of scripting a C application.
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2021-05-01T09:35:40Z h4ck3r9696: i know, but this is all for fun
2021-05-01T09:35:50Z v0|d: beach: will you be presenting at els2021?
2021-05-01T09:36:00Z beach: Fun and learning are good arguments.  Not knowing Common Lisp right now is less convincing.
2021-05-01T09:36:01Z phoe: v0|d: according to the program, he will
2021-05-01T09:36:09Z v0|d: mon or tue?
2021-05-01T09:36:10Z beach: v0|d: Yes, Tuesday 14:30.
2021-05-01T09:36:10Z phoe: and according to the contents of my hard drive, he will
2021-05-01T09:36:13Z v0|d: great.
2021-05-01T09:36:26Z joga: fast matrix stuff eh... use gpu? :)
2021-05-01T09:36:45Z beach: v0|d: But it's recorded, and I can give you a link to the recording if you prefer. :)
2021-05-01T09:37:05Z v0|d: beach: no worries, i'll be there, looking forward to listen, good luck
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2021-05-01T09:37:11Z beach: Thanks.
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2021-05-01T09:40:10Z madrik: Should I #' lambda forms or not? Different sources tell me different things. Is it only esthetics?
2021-05-01T09:40:37Z beach: Don't use #' with lambda expressions as forms.
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2021-05-01T09:41:38Z madrik: I know it's just a macro that expands into a FUNCTION form.
2021-05-01T09:41:52Z beach: You may consider #'(lambda ...) as obsolete and existing only for hysterical raisins.
2021-05-01T09:42:03Z pjb: I agree, normally you should not use #' with lambda. However depends on whether #' is the standard reader macro, of if you changed the read table.
2021-05-01T09:42:15Z madrik: The only argument I've heard for #' before lambda is that it expressly indicates the function-ness of the form.
2021-05-01T09:42:20Z pjb: And (lambda …) depends on whether it's cl:lambda or a lambda in another package.
2021-05-01T09:42:47Z madrik: Why would one shadow lambda?
2021-05-01T09:42:59Z pjb: (and then, even cl:lambda may depend on whether it's the standard read-table, or a read-table that has been changed to read in another package).
2021-05-01T09:43:01Z beach: madrik: That argument is not a very strong one.
2021-05-01T09:43:19Z pjb: madrik: for example, to implement instrumentation of the code. cf. eg. cl-stepper.
2021-05-01T09:43:58Z pjb: madrik: in https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/tree/master/common-lisp/lisp
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2021-05-01T09:44:20Z madrik: pjb: Thanks
2021-05-01T09:44:30Z pjb: https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/blob/master/common-lisp/lisp/stepper.lisp#L322
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2021-05-01T09:45:35Z madrik: beach: Yep. That's the only one I've heard in favor of.
2021-05-01T09:45:39Z pjb: another example is ibcl:  http://informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/ibcl/index.html
2021-05-01T09:46:23Z pjb: IBCL could use the readtable trick so that cl:lambda for user code is not the Common Lisp LAMBDA… But instead it only tricked on in-package.
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2021-05-01T09:47:15Z pjb: err, defpackage actually.
2021-05-01T09:47:57Z pjb: So if you write cl:defpackage  you don't get ibcl:defpackage, but if you write defpackage, you get ibcl:defpackage.
2021-05-01T09:48:31Z pjb: It's important to keep in a corner of your mind the assumption with which you're working.  Sometimes they're wrong.
2021-05-01T09:48:48Z madrik: pjb: Indeed.
2021-05-01T09:49:11Z pjb: What's called the application condition for theorems in maths and physics…
2021-05-01T09:49:23Z madrik: And on the subject of assumptions, how freely does one use CHECK-TYPE?
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2021-05-01T09:49:56Z pjb: For example people aways forget that entropy can only increase, but only in CLOSED systems.  1- we assume the whole universe is a closed system. 2- all the system with which we work ARE NOT closed systems!
2021-05-01T09:50:19Z pjb: madrik: you can be quite liberal with check-type.
2021-05-01T09:50:38Z pjb: madrik: personnaly, I would use it on API functions. Perhaps not on internal functions.
2021-05-01T09:51:33Z pjb: madrik: the reason why I may refrain using them on internal functions is because check-type invokes the interactive debugger to resolve problems.  You may want to avoid that on inner functions. But you would definitely want that for API functions and in general, functions closer to the user.
2021-05-01T09:52:08Z pjb: Ie. definitely on functions receiving data from I/O.
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2021-05-01T09:52:28Z phoe: madrik: freely, as in?
2021-05-01T09:52:47Z phoe: everywhere you need a type-checking assertion, use check-type
2021-05-01T09:53:04Z madrik: phoe: frequently, liberally, but not quite wantonly.
2021-05-01T09:54:35Z phoe: pjb: a solution for internal functions is ASSERT TYPEP with an empty list of places
2021-05-01T09:54:44Z pjb: Basically also, I would use check-type before any type declaration.
2021-05-01T09:54:51Z madrik: E.g., I learned about DEFTYPE, and thought it was possible to go overboard defining such types as positive-integer, nonnegative-real-number, etc.
2021-05-01T09:55:29Z pjb: For example (check-type i fixnum) (locally (declare (type fixnum i) (the fixnum (truncate i 2))))
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2021-05-01T09:56:35Z pjb: The post assertion of check-type is that the place holds an object of that type, therefore you can tell the compiler that the object is of that type. (some compilers are dumb).
2021-05-01T09:57:24Z pyc: Is there an equivalent of C's "hello\n" (newline within a string) in CL?
2021-05-01T09:57:34Z pjb: pyc: not really.
2021-05-01T09:57:42Z pjb: pyc: you just insert a newline
2021-05-01T09:57:46Z pjb: "hello
2021-05-01T09:57:46Z pjb: world"
2021-05-01T09:58:05Z madrik: Maybe a format string to the effect?
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2021-05-01T09:58:15Z madrik: But not quite
2021-05-01T09:58:15Z pjb: pyc: now, with format you can use ~& or ~%: (format nil "hello~%world")  but this is not a string literal.
2021-05-01T09:58:30Z pjb: pyc: You could use #.(format nil "hello~%world")  to make it a string literal…
2021-05-01T09:58:34Z pyc: pjb: Oh, I want something like (let search-string "hello\n" ...) so that I can later do (search search-string my-string).
2021-05-01T09:58:48Z no-defun-allowed: I used funny-looking type specifiers for integers to let type inference avoid bounds checks on multiplication and all.
2021-05-01T09:59:09Z pjb: pyc: but actually we have the other, with ~newline: we can have newline in literal format control strings, and use ~newline to specify how this literal newline ust be interpreted:
2021-05-01T09:59:20Z pjb: (format nil "hello~
2021-05-01T09:59:20Z pjb: world") #| --> "helloworld" |#
2021-05-01T09:59:21Z no-defun-allowed: Stuff like (mod #.(floor most-positive-fixnum 16))
2021-05-01T09:59:28Z pjb: (format nil "hello~:
2021-05-01T09:59:28Z pjb:         world") #| --> "hello        world" |#
2021-05-01T09:59:41Z pjb: (format nil "hello~@
2021-05-01T09:59:41Z pjb:         world")  #| --> "hello
2021-05-01T09:59:41Z pjb: world" |#
2021-05-01T10:00:01Z pjb: (format nil "hello~
2021-05-01T10:00:01Z pjb:           world") #| --> "helloworld" |#
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2021-05-01T10:00:12Z no-defun-allowed: Use a paste?
2021-05-01T10:00:39Z pjb: Note that with ~newline, the prefix spaces on the following lines are ignored too.  This let you indent nicely long string literals.
2021-05-01T10:02:20Z pjb: pyc: Using (format nil "hello~%") or #.(format nil "hello~%") wouldn't be too surprising. (let ((search-string  (format nil "hello~%"))) (search search-string text)).
2021-05-01T10:03:14Z pjb: pyc: but you may also consider using cl-ppcre (cl-ppcre:scan (format nil "hello~%") (format nil "bonjour~% how do you hello~% world!"))  #| --> 20 ; 26 ; #() ; #() |#
2021-05-01T10:05:45Z pjb: pyc: sorry, I meant: (cl-ppcre:scan "hello\\n" (format nil "bonjour~% how do you hello~% world!")) #| --> 20 ; 26 ; #() ; #() |#
2021-05-01T10:06:23Z pjb: pyc: cl-ppcre regexps are perl regexps, there "\\n" is interpreted as you want. (but it's not a newline character there, just a backslash and a n that is parsed by cl-ppcre.
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2021-05-01T10:06:44Z pyc: pjb: thanks!
2021-05-01T10:06:50Z pjb: pyc: finally, if you really need it (ie. you have a lot of strings with such escapes, you can of course define your own reader macro for #\"
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2021-05-01T10:08:04Z pjb: pyc: for example: https://ideone.com/Lw6yy3
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2021-05-01T10:13:36Z pjb: pyc: reload it, I added a defpackage definition.
2021-05-01T10:14:35Z pjb: So: (com.informatimago.common-lisp.c-string:enable-c-string-reader-macro) (write-string "hello\n\tworld!\n")
2021-05-01T10:14:35Z pjb: hello
2021-05-01T10:14:35Z pjb: 	world!
2021-05-01T10:15:38Z pjb: and: (com.informatimago.common-lisp.c-string:write-c-string "hello\n\tworld!\n") #| "hello\n\tworld!\n" --> nil |#
2021-05-01T10:16:30Z pjb: Well: (com.informatimago.common-lisp.c-string:write-c-string (format nil "hello~%~Cworld!~%~C" #\tab #\bel)) #| "hello\n\tworld!\n\a" --> nil |#
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2021-05-01T10:43:02Z mfiano: Yes, don't use #'(lambda ...). There is at least one place where a lambda expression is mandated by the standard, not a function, and it's more verbose anyway.
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2021-05-01T13:01:29Z pyc: In Common Lisp, the format specifier ~a is same as ~A, right? Similarly #\space is same as #\Space, right? is there any popular coding convention about which form to choose?
2021-05-01T13:02:13Z beach: I haven't seen any such convention.
2021-05-01T13:04:05Z Xach: I prefer ~A to ~a, I find it easier to read. I also prefer #\Caps to #\lowercase
2021-05-01T13:04:28Z Xach: If you wish to be friendly to readers, always use #\space or #\Space instead of #\ .
2021-05-01T13:04:44Z pyc: Xach: thanks!
2021-05-01T13:05:01Z pyc: Xach: I use #\space currently. Any disadvantage of using #\ ?
2021-05-01T13:05:04Z no-defun-allowed: I thought Norvig and Pitman said ~A sticks out more, but it could be anyone else.
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2021-05-01T13:06:24Z pyc: no-defun-allowed: thanks for the Norvig and Pitman reference. Found https://www.cs.umd.edu/~nau/cmsc421/norvig-lisp-style.pdf Invaluable resource for a Lisp beginner like me!
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2021-05-01T13:07:59Z Xach: pyc: #\  is hard to read.
2021-05-01T13:08:10Z pyc: Xach: agree. thanks!
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2021-05-01T13:28:04Z CL-ASHOK: Which would be better: (in-package :my-package) or (in-package 'my-package)
2021-05-01T13:28:22Z beach: (in-package #:my-package)
2021-05-01T13:28:28Z CL-ASHOK: ' is a symbol and : is a keyword...
2021-05-01T13:28:33Z CL-ASHOK: why #:?
2021-05-01T13:29:01Z p_l: ' is not a symbol
2021-05-01T13:29:14Z p_l: it's a macro for (quote ...)
2021-05-01T13:29:24Z beach: Because then you clearly indicate to the reader of your code that the package of the symbol you give is not important.  Only the name.
2021-05-01T13:29:24Z CL-ASHOK: sorry you are right :)
2021-05-01T13:29:29Z pyc: CL-ASHOK: ' is most definitely not a symbol. why do you say that?
2021-05-01T13:29:38Z CL-ASHOK: @pyc just stupid :D
2021-05-01T13:30:02Z CL-ASHOK: @beach what does the "#" do?
2021-05-01T13:30:26Z pyc: reader macro
2021-05-01T13:30:29Z p_l: CL-ASHOK: : is similarly defined as reader macro that will read the symbol as one with no value and PACKAGE set to "KEYWORD" - so every time you use :, you'll always get the same symbol from the same package
2021-05-01T13:30:41Z beach: clhs #:
2021-05-01T13:30:41Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhe.htm
2021-05-01T13:31:15Z p_l: CL-ASHOK: #: is actually a separate reader macro, which creates uninterned symbol, so it's not a keyword
2021-05-01T13:31:24Z CL-ASHOK: ah
2021-05-01T13:31:26Z CL-ASHOK: makes sense
2021-05-01T13:31:28Z CL-ASHOK: thanks guys
2021-05-01T13:31:49Z beach: CL-ASHOK: The @ convention is not used on IRC.  Just type the nick of the person followed by : and use completion for that.
2021-05-01T13:31:50Z CL-ASHOK: so : creates keyword (which can be accessed in code), while #: implies its not going to be used anywhere else
2021-05-01T13:32:06Z CL-ASHOK: beach: Thanks :)
2021-05-01T13:32:44Z beach: CL-ASHOK: It can be used elsewhere, but it means that it has no home package, so you clearly say that the package is not important.
2021-05-01T13:32:48Z p_l: #: will create a new "symbol object" every time you use it, but it won't attach it to any package
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2021-05-01T13:33:49Z p_l: This is useful in various situations, for example you might want to use a symbol only for it's name value one time (used to be somewhat common in package definitions) to avoid polluting the namespace with it
2021-05-01T13:34:40Z beach: I consider the "pollution" argument as being a bit weaker.  The argument that it is the most specific construct is better.
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2021-05-01T13:37:25Z pyc: anyone knows what the name of the book "Let Over Lambda" means? is it a pun? if so I am not getting it.
2021-05-01T13:37:56Z beach: "LoL"
2021-05-01T13:38:46Z beach: Also referring to the fact that LET can be seen as a special case of a compound form with a lambda expression in its CAR.
2021-05-01T13:38:54Z CL-ASHOK: pyc: I think its because they use let a lot with lambda expressions
2021-05-01T13:39:02Z beach: ... which in fact is not true, but it is widely believed to be the case.
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2021-05-01T13:40:15Z beach: One might think that (let ((<some-var> <some-form>)) ... <some-var>) would be the same as ((lambda (<some-var>) ... <some-var>) <some-form>) would always be equivalent.
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2021-05-01T13:42:49Z beach: But they aren't when <some-var> is a lambda-list keyword.  Try translating (let ((&rest 10)) (+ x 20)) to the other form.
2021-05-01T13:42:50Z CL-ASHOK: beach: "... it means that it has no home package..." --> If I use ":" then it will intern in the keyword package? Wouldn't that mean its a good thing, since a package name is like a keyword and it would not be good to have any clashes with other keywords with the same name (which may happen if its uninterned)?
2021-05-01T13:43:37Z beach: CL-ASHOK: Uninterned symbols never clash, because a new symbol is created every time.
2021-05-01T13:43:54Z Xach: Uninterned symbols never clash!
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2021-05-01T14:04:56Z nij: I guess what CL-ASHOK is concerned with is that a package should correspond to a keyword.
2021-05-01T14:05:19Z nij: But if you use #:.. it creates a different keyword everytime that corresponds to the same package.
2021-05-01T14:05:36Z beach: WHAT?
2021-05-01T14:05:56Z nij: s/different keyword/different symbol/
2021-05-01T14:06:20Z beach: Right, and what is this "same package" business?
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2021-05-01T14:17:21Z gendl__: beach: nij is saying it generates a separate symbol object but with the same symbol-name, so it refers to the same package object if used with e.g. defpackage or in-package.
2021-05-01T14:18:09Z beach: Oh, I see.  Thanks.
2021-05-01T14:18:33Z beach: I am notorious for having difficulties understanding what people say/write, unless it is very precise.
2021-05-01T14:18:42Z beach can't "fill in the blanks".
2021-05-01T14:18:47Z gendl__: he’s talking about using e.g. #:my-package in one place in code, then #:my-package again in another place.
2021-05-01T14:19:25Z beach: I think I understand.
2021-05-01T14:19:52Z gendl__: I never actually thought about that. So from a memory storage point of view, :my-package would be more space-efficient.
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2021-05-01T14:21:18Z beach: At least temporarily, sure.
2021-05-01T14:21:21Z gendl__: ... because these things actually get stored in fasls and in the code section of memory, right?
2021-05-01T14:21:54Z beach: I suppose.
2021-05-01T14:22:39Z phoe: note that gensyms are GCable if used only temporarily, so even if you allocate more of them then they get cleaned by the GC
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2021-05-01T14:22:56Z gendl__: I’m guessing intuitively that the difference would normally be negligible. But maybe it would be something fun to experiment around with on a rainy Sunday afternoon.
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2021-05-01T14:24:19Z raeda_: pyc: I have a copy of LOL. The title refers to creating a closure: the lambda captures the let's environment
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2021-05-01T14:28:16Z CL-ASHOK: gendl__: "he’s talking about using e.g. #:my-package in one place in code, then #:my-package again in another place." --> Precisely, since I would define it within (defpackage and then re-use it later in the package itself)
2021-05-01T14:28:41Z CL-ASHOK: beach: I'm unclear on it myself, so my words would only be confusing :)
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2021-05-01T14:30:26Z beach: CL-ASHOK: The main point is that (in-package #:my-package) is very close to (in-package "MY-PACKAGE") because IN-PACKAGE takes a string designator, so if the symbol is given, its name is used which is "MY-PACKAGE".
2021-05-01T14:30:39Z CL-ASHOK: beach and Xach: Wouldn't it be a good thing for the symbols to clash (hence interning them is good), since it forces less ambiguity when writing code? Perhaps its a question of how many programmers work on a project - a single programmer perhaps should intern his package name and a large group working together perhaps should not?
2021-05-01T14:30:56Z beach: But #:my-package looks less ugly, because you would typically use lower case when you define your package.
2021-05-01T14:32:03Z beach: CL-ASHOK: Whether you use an interned or an uninterned symbol has absolutely no effect on sharing.
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2021-05-01T14:32:22Z beach: CL-ASHOK: In both cases only the SYMBOL-NAME is used, so the result is the same.
2021-05-01T14:32:42Z beach: CL-ASHOK: The point here is not about semantics, but about the message you send to the  person reading your code.
2021-05-01T14:32:50Z CL-ASHOK: beach: thanks, that's a good reminder. I remember reading that, but that explains it nicely
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2021-05-01T14:33:28Z beach: CL-ASHOK: If you use an interned symbol, you may give the reader of your code the impression that the package of that symbol is somehow important in this context.
2021-05-01T14:33:58Z beach: CL-ASHOK: Maybe you have a tool that reads this code some other way than the compiler, and that tool requires the symbol to be in a particular package.
2021-05-01T14:34:12Z CL-ASHOK: beach: but isn't ":my-package" in the global keyword package or I misunderstood?
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2021-05-01T14:34:50Z beach: CL-ASHOK: Yes, and you are telling your maintainer "by the way, it has to be the keyword symbol here, because the package is important".
2021-05-01T14:34:55Z beach: So you are lying to your maintainer.
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2021-05-01T14:35:20Z CL-ASHOK: beach: OK, yes I just got what you meant
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2021-05-01T14:35:34Z CL-ASHOK: now it clicks
2021-05-01T14:35:37Z beach: CL-ASHOK: But if you use #:my-package, you are telling the maintainer "Yes, this is a symbol, but since it has no package, I can't possibly take advantage of its package"
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2021-05-01T14:36:59Z CL-ASHOK: beach: sorry to be obtuse, this I don't get "since it has no package, I can't possibly take advantage of its package" --> why would someone want to take advantage of the package?
2021-05-01T14:37:11Z beach: I just told you.
2021-05-01T14:37:32Z beach: Maybe you have a tool (the editor?) that reads the code and requires it to be a particular package.
2021-05-01T14:37:57Z CL-ASHOK: Ahhh
2021-05-01T14:37:59Z CL-ASHOK: Got it
2021-05-01T14:38:09Z CL-ASHOK: Thanks!
2021-05-01T14:38:24Z beach: "In this project of mine, all the arguments to IN-PACKAGE must be keyword symbols, because I have this tool that scans my code and extracts all those symbols"
2021-05-01T14:39:26Z CL-ASHOK: copying this chat for future reference :)
2021-05-01T14:39:47Z beach: No need.  The channel is logged.
2021-05-01T14:40:35Z beach: Programmers often forget that the compiler is frequently just one of many tools that might be reading the code.
2021-05-01T14:40:39Z CL-ASHOK: is there a search tool to find Q&A answered previously in #lisp (over the last many years)?
2021-05-01T14:40:54Z beach: yes, click the "search" button on the log site.
2021-05-01T14:41:08Z CL-ASHOK: Nice!
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2021-05-01T14:42:02Z beach: The tymoon.eu log, that is.
2021-05-01T14:42:36Z CL-ASHOK: Cheers
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2021-05-01T14:45:18Z beach: Whew! That was taxing. :)
2021-05-01T14:47:27Z ebrasca: Hi
2021-05-01T14:47:41Z beach: Hello ebrasca.
2021-05-01T14:49:12Z CL-ASHOK: beach: Lisp has too many advanced concepts in it :)
2021-05-01T14:50:44Z beach: Well, most of this discussion was about communication with the maintainer.  The semantics of Common Lisp are much simpler than those of most languages.
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2021-05-01T14:51:39Z CL-ASHOK: That is true
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2021-05-01T15:13:44Z jcowan: beach: Has anyone written either a denotational or an operational semantics for a large part of CL?
2021-05-01T15:13:59Z beach: Not that I am aware of.
2021-05-01T15:14:06Z beach: Sounds like fun, though.
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2021-05-01T15:18:12Z Nilby: Wow. Imagine the formal semantics for loop and format?
2021-05-01T15:18:52Z beach: LOOP should not be too hard.  It can be specified in terms of expansion.
2021-05-01T15:19:12Z jcowan: Usually you do full macroexpansion and then provide the semantics of what's left.  Format is another matter: arguably a different language altogether.
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2021-05-01T15:19:28Z beach: Yes, FORMAT is different.
2021-05-01T15:20:03Z jcowan: In addition, some things like LET are treated as primitive in CL, but obviously need not be.
2021-05-01T15:21:08Z Nilby: Judging by every implemtation, I think LOOP is pretty hard.
2021-05-01T15:21:21Z beach: Except see my argument why LET can't be easily expanded to ((lambda ...)...).
2021-05-01T15:21:48Z Nilby: and yes I've looked at the new SICL LOOP
2021-05-01T15:22:06Z beach: Nilby: It's a tricky macro, and most implementations seem to use the (not so great) MIT LOOP.
2021-05-01T15:23:10Z Nilby: It's funny, recently looked at an old MIT LOOP and it seemed much more tractable than the current one in use.
2021-05-01T15:27:41Z jcowan: beach: pointer to this argument?
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2021-05-01T15:45:39Z lukego: jcowan: it's not a large part of CL but I've recently been digging into ACL2 and wow that's an amazing system that's very strongly Common Lisp flavored.
2021-05-01T15:45:49Z jcowan: yes indeed
2021-05-01T15:46:04Z jcowan: I've never tried to use it, but I admire its rigor
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2021-05-01T15:46:22Z jcowan: of course the most common type of rigor is rigor mortis.  :-)
2021-05-01T15:46:55Z beach: jcowan: That it MIT LOOP is not so great?
2021-05-01T15:46:56Z lukego: yeah I was surprised to find that it seems to be alive and humming along, always assumed it would be something archaic and dying
2021-05-01T15:47:08Z jcowan: The same might be said of CL!
2021-05-01T15:47:10Z beach: jcowan: It allows for clause orders that are not conforming.
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2021-05-01T15:47:30Z beach: jcowan: And it assigns iteration variables out of range.
2021-05-01T15:47:50Z jcowan: What's an example, then?  (I have a concrete-operational mind.)
2021-05-01T15:48:14Z jcowan: (To be clear, I am talking about LET expansion)
2021-05-01T15:48:14Z beach: Give me a few minutes...
2021-05-01T15:48:20Z beach: Oh, sorry.
2021-05-01T15:48:27Z phoe: (let ((&key 42)) (+ &key 24))
2021-05-01T15:48:31Z beach: yes.
2021-05-01T15:48:39Z phoe: so basically, LLKs used as variables
2021-05-01T15:48:50Z phoe: a very hard-to-encounter edge case, but a nasty one
2021-05-01T15:48:58Z Nilby: So is sicl-loop ready such that I can load it on other implementations and put in a for-as-X clause for my pet generic sequence?
2021-05-01T15:49:49Z beach: Nilby: Yes, I think so.  Xach has been using it to check for non-conforming LOOP constructs in Quicklisp projects.
2021-05-01T15:50:24Z jcowan: I admit that is awesome.  (Most Schemes that have LLKs make sure they aren't identifiers by using #!key or the like.)
2021-05-01T15:50:26Z Nilby: beach: Cool! I'll try give it a spin.
2021-05-01T15:50:36Z beach: Nilby: In fact, nothing bad happens to you if you just load it into SBCL.  You will trip the package lock, but if you accept, then it just works it seems.
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2021-05-01T16:08:04Z nij: Sorry I was away ~2hrs ago to help gardening.
2021-05-01T16:08:43Z nij: Yeah sorry for my sloppiness in using the right terminology. I understand it creates misunderstanding when I do that.. I will be more careful.
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2021-05-01T16:14:12Z dieggsy: so i much prefer quri, but it's someone else's codebase - what's the puri equivalent of quri:make-uri ?
2021-05-01T16:14:28Z dieggsy: ...i can't seem to find one lol
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2021-05-01T16:17:01Z pjb: nij: in that case, packages are named by strings.  package operators use: - package designators, which are either a package (itself), or string designators designating a package name, or - string designators (to designate symbols whose names are also strings). String designators are either characters designating a 1-char string containing it, symbols (whose name designates string equal to it), or strings.
2021-05-01T16:18:51Z pjb: nij: because of this designator hierarchy, you can (defpackage #\A (:use "CL" cl :cl #:cl #.(find-package "CL") #| <-- !! |# ) (:export #\F "F" f :f #:f))
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2021-05-01T16:23:12Z jcowan: pjb: What hair.  I sketched out a runtime package system for Scheme once, and my first decision was to heave all that overboard and say that the argument to a package procedure is a package object, period.
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2021-05-01T16:26:48Z pjb: jcowan: yes, but in CL, packages are used at read-time, which occurs usually at compilation-time, therefore we must be able to declare things about packages possibly before or while they are defined.
2021-05-01T16:27:10Z pjb: Also, syntactically, it's easier to use symbols.
2021-05-01T16:28:01Z jcowan: That was another decision: don't attempt to integrate the package system with R[67]RS library system, which exists only at macroexpansion time.
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2021-05-01T16:29:19Z jcowan: Another blocker is that there just isn't enough demand for a symbol/package system used at runtime.
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2021-05-01T16:46:08Z josrr: dieggsy: I think you should use (make-instance 'puri:uri …)
2021-05-01T16:46:43Z dieggsy: josrr: you're exactly right, and now that you've said that it seems obvious heh. thanks!
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2021-05-01T16:58:28Z Nilby: So I managed to make an sbcl un-killable, not even a zombie. Is there even any O/S that isn't crap?
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2021-05-01T17:13:29Z pjb: If Nilby had stayed a tad longer, I would have advised a kill -9
2021-05-01T17:13:31Z pjb: or two.
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2021-05-01T17:31:29Z nij: pjb i see, thanks :)
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2021-05-01T19:30:02Z nij: Hi beach! Which parts of COMMONDOC aren't you convinced yet? And, when you mean to parse dpANS, do you want the macro to stay as they are, or you don't mind if it's parsed with all macros unwinded?
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2021-05-01T19:57:17Z sm2n: huh, this is kind of interesting. Apparently a researcher who was trying to make a formal model for OOP ended up reinventing generic functions a la CLOS independently via theory
2021-05-01T19:58:54Z Inline: there are still some beef in OOP
2021-05-01T19:58:56Z sm2n: this was while trying to give a nicer foundation to more "traditional" class-based message-passing OOP
2021-05-01T19:59:11Z sm2n: book in question: https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9780817639051
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2021-05-01T19:59:25Z Inline: i saw some objections to some defaults or some such on some websites
2021-05-01T19:59:36Z sm2n: defaults?
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2021-05-01T20:00:03Z Inline: erm, peter gabriel, dreamsongs.com, hexsoft.com etc..
2021-05-01T20:00:38Z sm2n: while I know who these people are, I don't follow what you are trying to say
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2021-05-01T20:00:57Z Inline: welp, there are some objections to the standard as far as i understand
2021-05-01T20:01:04Z sm2n: oh
2021-05-01T20:01:18Z sm2n: well everyone has their pet peeves, that's normal
2021-05-01T20:01:21Z Inline: with respect to standard-class and standard-object etc...
2021-05-01T20:01:29Z Inline: yah
2021-05-01T20:01:49Z Inline: not sure how much would be affected by such a thing in user-code
2021-05-01T20:02:22Z Inline: even the adaption implementation wise is not clear
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2021-05-01T20:05:58Z Nilby: pjb: it was for real stuck. no amount of -9 could kill it "D" status in ps. But I've given up unix and now I'm just gonna run Mezzano
2021-05-01T20:06:52Z Inline: erm, i get some non ok exit codes from some parts in sbcl
2021-05-01T20:07:45Z Inline: while compiling sbcl on voidlinux, it's mostly either threads-impure.lisp or so or something relating to mutexes
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2021-05-01T20:08:25Z Inline: not sure if the installed ones resolved that problem, while the git version still seems to have that problem
2021-05-01T20:08:33Z Inline: heh
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2021-05-01T20:11:43Z Inline: Nilby: when the exit codes are not ok maybe that's why it stalls instead of terminating cleanly
2021-05-01T20:12:41Z Inline: exit code| return code| exit status
2021-05-01T20:13:15Z Nilby: no it was wedged inside the kernel, nothing to do with exit codes
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2021-05-01T20:14:04Z jcowan: pjb: even kill -9 does not work with a process holding a "short-term" lock such as a file.  Normally that's okay, but if the open() is taking a long time (NFS especially, but also some Fuse file systems), you are SOL.  Reboot.
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2021-05-01T20:17:07Z Nilby: There was no NFS, i couldn't even connect with gdb, but it's okay, since I'm going to no only use stupid unix as a bootloader for Mezzano
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2021-05-01T20:57:11Z ebrasca: Can we make a better Lisp? Why let don't hendle multiple values? Like (let ((a b (function args)))...
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2021-05-01T20:57:38Z no-defun-allowed: Do you really need a new standard for that?
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2021-05-01T20:58:08Z ebrasca: I am sure there ara other things we can make better.
2021-05-01T20:58:16Z kevingal: Tear it all down!! Or just do (let ((a (function args)) (b a)) ...)
2021-05-01T20:58:19Z gigamonkey: ebrasca: knock yourself out. you can even build on Common Lisp. (defpackage better-lisp ...) and go to town. See if it catches on.
2021-05-01T20:58:24Z kevingal: Wait, that should be let*.
2021-05-01T20:59:03Z ebrasca: let* does mean something else.
2021-05-01T20:59:43Z ebrasca: (let* ((a 1) (b (1+ a)))...
2021-05-01T20:59:55Z kevingal: You mean, if (function args) returns multiple values?
2021-05-01T21:00:05Z ebrasca: Yes
2021-05-01T21:00:17Z ebrasca: you get a and b
2021-05-01T21:00:47Z kevingal: (multiple-value-bind (a b) (function args) ...) might do the trick?
2021-05-01T21:01:34Z ebrasca: But it leads you into nesting.
2021-05-01T21:02:02Z ebrasca: And you can have 1 function with both of the funtionality.
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2021-05-01T21:03:38Z ebrasca: What if you like (let* ((a b (funtion0 args)) (c d (function1 args)) (e (+ a b c d))) body) ?
2021-05-01T21:04:42Z theothornhill: Why not create your own multiple-value-bind* ?
2021-05-01T21:05:03Z theothornhill: If nesting is a concern, I mean
2021-05-01T21:05:34Z ebrasca: Because it complicate things. Instead of making things more easy , I am adding complexity.
2021-05-01T21:05:58Z ebrasca: Now there is let , m-v-b and my let.
2021-05-01T21:06:24Z ebrasca: Instead of 1 function making it more easy to learn.
2021-05-01T21:07:21Z theothornhill: I can agree on destructuring by itself though - would be nice to have something like the js syntax (It exists in macros, doesn't it)?
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2021-05-01T21:07:27Z gigamonkey: Bad news: you'd be adding complexity either way. Because there will still be old implementations that only support old-style LET. Maybe if you can come up with a backwards compatible syntax for the new LET it could catch on. But the world isn't goin to suddenly throw away all old code and old implementations even if there's a "better" new thing.
2021-05-01T21:07:42Z theothornhill: Yeah
2021-05-01T21:08:07Z theothornhill: But lots of people add their own utility libs
2021-05-01T21:08:31Z gigamonkey: Totally. And if you get benefit from them, they may even catch on with others.
2021-05-01T21:08:42Z gigamonkey: But that's very different from changing the definition of CL:LET.
2021-05-01T21:08:47Z theothornhill: Yeah, like Steve Losh https://hg.stevelosh.com/cl-losh/
2021-05-01T21:09:23Z kevingal: Suggested name for your new macro: 'bet'.
2021-05-01T21:09:38Z kevingal: (stands for better).
2021-05-01T21:09:41Z ebrasca: gigamonkey: I think my idea is compatible with old code , old let rune the same on the new let.
2021-05-01T21:09:47Z gigamonkey: I was recently reminded of this talk I gave a decade+ ago about Lisp standardization: https://soundcloud.com/zach-beane/peter-seibel-common-lisp I'd humbly suggest that anyone who wants to make a "new, better Lisp" might want to take a listen.
2021-05-01T21:10:58Z theothornhill: Absolutely. Speaking of the definition of things in lisp - I've been looking into renewing the dpans spec, and creating a new latex version of the whole spec, with all macros removed.  Any ideas for how I'd convert that afterwards to something usable in say, commondoc?
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2021-05-01T21:11:11Z ebrasca: Normal let binds 1 to 1 (a 1) , new let allow you to multiple bind (a b (function0 args)).
2021-05-01T21:12:00Z theothornhill: I found a wild perl-script buried in archive.org from 1996 that expands tex-macros automatically, so it suddenly is feasible
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2021-05-01T21:12:56Z kevingal: What's the dpans spec?
2021-05-01T21:13:03Z theothornhill: But not really sure if that gets more maintainable than creating a parser dedicated to the dpans spec...
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2021-05-01T21:13:58Z theothornhill: If I'm not mistaken it is the draft for ANSI standardization of common lisp.  It is needed to use that since the hyperspec is proprietary.  So if we want to improve that, we have to start from scratch
2021-05-01T21:14:02Z ebrasca: My idea is to have CL with the same overall funtionality but with less duplication and easy to learn.
2021-05-01T21:14:03Z gigamonkey: theothornhill: beware of the extremely unclear copyright ownership dragons that lurk there. not saying don't do it but beware.
2021-05-01T21:14:52Z gigamonkey: theothornhill: I don't think there is any 'from scratch' as you don't have right to start from that draft and make derived works any more than you can start from the HyperSpec.
2021-05-01T21:14:58Z theothornhill: gigamonkey: Yeah, I've heard things...  It seemed to me the spec itself though was "safe" to use, considering it isn't derived from the hyperspec
2021-05-01T21:15:19Z theothornhill: Hmm.  So that draft is also licensed?
2021-05-01T21:15:22Z kevingal: Do I remember beach talking about a similar project the other day?
2021-05-01T21:15:26Z CL-ASHOK: But CL already has a reasonably large eco system around it, I think its too much effort to reinvent the wheel
2021-05-01T21:15:43Z gigamonkey: I mean, it's copywritten by whoever wrote it. It wasn't placed into the public domain, as far as I know.
2021-05-01T21:16:23Z CL-ASHOK: Wow, so the actual CL spec is not open source and freely available for all?
2021-05-01T21:16:50Z gigamonkey: No, it's an ANSI standard that you can buy from ANSI.
2021-05-01T21:17:06Z gigamonkey: Though don't because they seem to have lost the original postscript or whatever and what you get is like a bad photocopy.
2021-05-01T21:17:26Z theothornhill: gigamonkey: amazing
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2021-05-01T21:17:42Z theothornhill: So that means the project is dead already. Nice.
2021-05-01T21:17:45Z gigamonkey: Seriously, you'd actually probably enjoy that talk I linked above. It's about a lot of this.
2021-05-01T21:18:07Z theothornhill: I've already bookmarked it :)
2021-05-01T21:18:12Z gigamonkey: Including some thoughts (now ten years old, of course) about how we can, nonetheless, proceed.
2021-05-01T21:18:36Z CL-ASHOK: Thanks. I wonder if it goes into the public domain eventually? It would be an interesting copyright case if derivative works would be allowed
2021-05-01T21:18:50Z theothornhill: Well everything does at some point
2021-05-01T21:18:58Z saturn2: ebrasca: you can just make your own package to use in place of COMMON-LISP
2021-05-01T21:19:19Z gigamonkey: Well, everything older than Mickey Mouse likely does at some point.
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2021-05-01T21:19:46Z theothornhill: Hehe
2021-05-01T21:20:45Z CL-ASHOK: Its a very interesting topic, but I guess I'm going too much off topic now
2021-05-01T21:20:55Z theothornhill: Well, one thing I discovered while wasting time on this was that there are two prominent lispers that uses sjl as initials
2021-05-01T21:21:03Z ebrasca: saturn2: Thanks, I think I first like to make other things! ( I only have 1 or 2 things that I thing can be better )
2021-05-01T21:22:16Z gigamonkey: dude, get back to us when you have at least 100. (I kept a list when I was writing PCL and it was probably way longer than that.)
2021-05-01T21:23:13Z theothornhill: gigamonkey: you could make a parser for the dpans spec that generates a new HyperSpec for PCL2. (I saw you requested ideas for binary formats O:-) )
2021-05-01T21:24:06Z gigamonkey: 359 items. ;-)
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2021-05-01T21:27:04Z jcowan: gigamonkey: is there a transcript for that talk anywhere?
2021-05-01T21:27:44Z ebrasca: Why we don't make a new CL? Can a new CL bring new people in?
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2021-05-01T21:28:25Z ebrasca: I am sure it is not hard to make a compatibility layer for old CL.
2021-05-01T21:28:48Z theothornhill: ebrasca: There have been a lot of efforts to that end already
2021-05-01T21:28:51Z jcowan: That's been being tried for 25 years with no success
2021-05-01T21:29:47Z theothornhill: Some of the "simpler" attempts: https://github.com/vseloved/rutils https://github.com/cl21/cl21
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2021-05-01T21:35:59Z lotuseater: what's the critical point about it?
2021-05-01T21:37:53Z pjb: People like straightjackets.
2021-05-01T21:38:28Z lotuseater: ah ok ^^
2021-05-01T21:41:36Z gigamonkey: jcowan: not that I'm aware of.
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2021-05-01T21:46:42Z nij: Here's a copy of dpANS https://github.com/xach/dpans
2021-05-01T21:47:07Z nij: Here's a paused attempt to parse dpANS: https://github.com/robert-strandh/dpANS-parser
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2021-05-01T21:48:19Z nij: Here's beach guessing CommonDoc could be a great start: https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp?around=1619602936#1619602936
2021-05-01T21:49:24Z nij: theotho..? gigamonkey beach ^^^
2021-05-01T21:49:43Z ebrasca: I don't like cl21, why Regular Expression. How Running external programs is going to help OS writen in CL21?
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2021-05-01T21:50:28Z nij:  
2021-05-01T21:50:28Z nij: ebrasca: I don't understand..
2021-05-01T21:51:15Z ebrasca: Why CL need to run other not CL programs?
2021-05-01T21:51:54Z theothornhill: nij: nice! I found this script buried deep in the nineties - perhaps it could be of use? I've experimented a little with recreating the whole spec as one file with all macros expanded, and it can be done with that script https://hg.sr.ht/~theo/clms/browse/tme.pl?rev=tip
2021-05-01T21:53:31Z theothornhill: nij: With tme.pl and texexpander the whole spec can easily be turned into a single document
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2021-05-01T21:54:56Z nij: theothornhill: Have you tried to turn that into the format of CommonDoc?!
2021-05-01T21:55:06Z nij: I'm also hoping that CLHS can be freed.
2021-05-01T21:55:52Z nij: But if gigamonkey is right, we should beware of the copyright issue of dpANS... there's a copy but I dont know. I'm a #lisp noob and a legal noob as well.
2021-05-01T21:55:55Z theothornhill: Not yet into commondoc.  Only a single latex document. Was able to parse it to html using pandoc, so should be doable
2021-05-01T21:56:27Z theothornhill: nij: Yeah - I was encouraged couple of days ago, but now I'm sad
2021-05-01T21:56:37Z nij: Why sad? Cuz of the legal issue?
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2021-05-01T21:57:22Z theothornhill: Yeah.  Felt like we were onto something, but now it seems a little futile.  I guess it is impossible to legally copy the dpans
2021-05-01T21:57:30Z nij: We need a safe way to find out. But how? Isn't there a license with dpANS?
2021-05-01T21:58:12Z theothornhill: I didn't see one.  That just means its licensed to all the authors, if I'm not mistaken.  Which makes it hard, since I guess not all are easy to get hold of
2021-05-01T21:58:33Z nij: Now there's at least a copy posted online by a non-author: https://github.com/xach/dpans
2021-05-01T21:58:59Z theothornhill: Yeah there are many
2021-05-01T21:59:03Z nij: So where and how did xach get a copy?
2021-05-01T21:59:37Z theothornhill: no idea
2021-05-01T21:59:51Z nij: Maybe we can email Pitman and ask him too?
2021-05-01T22:00:03Z lotuseater: how many people were involved in the final formulation of the ANSI standard?
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2021-05-01T22:01:32Z nij`: Dunno.
2021-05-01T22:01:42Z theothornhill: https://github.com/xach/dpans/blob/master/Change-Log.text
2021-05-01T22:01:49Z theothornhill: lotuseater:
2021-05-01T22:01:57Z nij`: As Pitman made CLHS, he must have known the legal issue..
2021-05-01T22:02:19Z theothornhill: lotuseater: Didn't count, but there are quite a few
2021-05-01T22:02:19Z mfiano: There was plans to place dPANS3 into the public domain, but it was never finished
2021-05-01T22:02:36Z lotuseater: ah cool
2021-05-01T22:02:41Z mfiano: Therefor it is copyrighted by all those involved
2021-05-01T22:03:06Z nij`: mfiano: how does dpANS3 differ from the one we posted? (in xach's github)
2021-05-01T22:03:17Z mfiano: They are the same
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2021-05-01T22:04:57Z nij`: But.. it is placed in the public domain.. no? In xach's repo.
2021-05-01T22:05:06Z nij`: s/in the/in a/
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2021-05-01T22:06:00Z mfiano: Some people believe it is because of its intention to be, but with no formal notice, it cannot be.
2021-05-01T22:06:40Z White_Flame: best way to find out the legal status of something is to copy it and wait for a takedown notice
2021-05-01T22:06:45Z nij` feels like he should get a local copy asap..
2021-05-01T22:07:06Z nij`: White_Flame: Can they sue legally right away?
2021-05-01T22:07:34Z White_Flame: the thing is, it costs money to do that.  _would_ somebody bother sinking money into a real lawsuit for something like the CL spec?
2021-05-01T22:07:45Z White_Flame: at best, you'd get a notice
2021-05-01T22:07:47Z theothornhill: I'm guessing no
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2021-05-01T22:08:28Z mfiano: I would guess that depends on the claimed losses
2021-05-01T22:08:31Z nij`: Or maybe someone should put a copy on some site like b-ok.org
2021-05-01T22:08:52Z nij`: I dunno if that's legal. But even if it is.. it should be hard to catch (?)
2021-05-01T22:08:54Z lotuseater: oh i like that site
2021-05-01T22:09:09Z nij`: lotuseater: gotcha! you should be put to jail :D
2021-05-01T22:09:17Z White_Flame: and xach has already copied the stuff in question
2021-05-01T22:09:26Z White_Flame: in a much more publicly findable way
2021-05-01T22:10:00Z nij`: theothornhill: with the parsed version you have, do you think it's easy to create hyperlinks?
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2021-05-01T22:10:00Z lotuseater: no why that nij`? ^^
2021-05-01T22:10:24Z nij`: Oh haha nvm lotuseater we all know you just love it but never use it :)
2021-05-01T22:10:36Z nij`: Here's another one I love but never used :| http://libgen.rs/
2021-05-01T22:10:39Z lotuseater: ehm ..
2021-05-01T22:10:53Z nij`: It's a sin! No one should use it.
2021-05-01T22:10:54Z lotuseater: I like open knowledge
2021-05-01T22:11:00Z nij`: Hehehe
2021-05-01T22:11:38Z lotuseater: even worse is if a company thinks it can "own" mathematics
2021-05-01T22:11:42Z nij`: theothornhill: like.. how far do you think you can turn it into a CommonDoc version, with a great Master Index :D?
2021-05-01T22:12:14Z theothornhill: nij`: That's where I'm a little unclear as to what's the best way to link.  Now the expander just expands all the way to be tex primitives, and it might be better to attach links to something a little less generic.  Not sure
2021-05-01T22:12:47Z theothornhill: I think we can go pretty far.  My first instinct was to go to markdown or something similar
2021-05-01T22:13:15Z nij`: Some how related - what a crazy world - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27004577
2021-05-01T22:13:32Z lotuseater: hm or as an org file? :D
2021-05-01T22:13:33Z theothornhill: I'm working now on some ways to do it reproducible.  Right now there are some manual steps to get things right
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2021-05-01T22:13:50Z theothornhill: lotuseater: yeah, could be
2021-05-01T22:13:52Z nij`: theothornhill - I think there are some special macros used that are intended to create links?
2021-05-01T22:14:00Z nij`: Or did Pitman add the links by himself in CLHS?
2021-05-01T22:14:17Z lotuseater: hm ok, pandoc helps if another format is needed
2021-05-01T22:14:34Z nij`: I'd say if we can parse it in CommonDoc then it'd be awesome.. something that has a programmatic structures.
2021-05-01T22:14:38Z theothornhill: Not sure. If so, I think I need to rewrite the perlscript to account for those cases, and yuck
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2021-05-01T22:14:57Z theothornhill: nij`: Yeah I agree
2021-05-01T22:15:08Z nij`: Then it will be truly freed. Weeeeee
2021-05-01T22:15:36Z theothornhill: Yeah! If legal :P
2021-05-01T22:15:37Z nij`: theothornhill: :( I guess you just have to alter a few cases.
2021-05-01T22:16:07Z nij`: We can see how xach views this? xach had a copy on github so that's a progress.
2021-05-01T22:16:12Z nij`: Maybe it's just some work undone.
2021-05-01T22:16:24Z jcowan: gigamonkey: I wish you could get the derivative rights to PCL back, so that other P-books could be written.
2021-05-01T22:16:40Z theothornhill: nij`: maybe.  It's a pretty gnarly script.  Doable, of course, but I'd rather do it in lisp than perl
2021-05-01T22:18:58Z lotuseater: with the power of FORMAT? :)
2021-05-01T22:19:51Z theothornhill: I love format
2021-05-01T22:20:01Z nij`: I now worry that if all macros are expanded.. then some sementic meaning goes away.
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2021-05-01T22:20:52Z theothornhill: nij`: Yea, it does.  That's what I'm looking into right now
2021-05-01T22:21:32Z lotuseater: or replacing complex TeX macros with lisp
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2021-05-01T22:22:00Z lotuseater: ok, no correlation, sry
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2021-05-01T22:24:13Z nij`: We need help from phoe and beach :-) They have thought about this before iirc.
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2021-05-01T22:26:58Z dieggsy: jcowan: what happened with the PCL rights ?
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2021-05-01T22:30:54Z theothornhill: nij`: I think getting some input from phoe on whats needed from the macro expander to fit in nicely with CLUS.  I think I remember him speaking about the macros being hard to deal with since they are all over the place
2021-05-01T22:31:25Z jcowan: Apress has them
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2021-05-01T22:36:57Z gigamonkey: jcowan: what do you mean by "other P-books"?
2021-05-01T22:37:27Z gigamonkey: I mean, I still own the copyright to PCL but have licensed most publication rights to Apress.
2021-05-01T22:37:27Z jcowan: Practical Scheme, Practical Interlisp, Practical Java, ....
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2021-05-01T22:37:41Z gigamonkey: I mean, it's not like you'd start from the text of PCL to write any of those.
2021-05-01T22:37:52Z jcowan: the first two would obviously be nnn-commercial
2021-05-01T22:37:57Z gigamonkey: There was a Practical Python that came out before PCL.
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2021-05-01T22:38:21Z gigamonkey: And a Practical O'Caml that came out after and got thoroughly, and publicly, roasted by the tech reviewer.
2021-05-01T22:38:25Z jcowan: I think I would for Lisps.
2021-05-01T22:39:02Z dieggsy: gigamonkey: do you have a link to this roasting
2021-05-01T22:39:18Z gigamonkey: In theory if Apress ever lets PCL go "out of print" all the rights revert back to me but I'm not sure what that means in a world of Print On Demand books.
2021-05-01T22:39:44Z jcowan: It talks about the right things in the right order, and we now have enough Scheme de facto standardized to make it usable, perhaps with some chapters missing
2021-05-01T22:41:20Z gigamonkey: dieggsy: I think the thing linked in this Redddit post was it but that link is dead. https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/q7kh/practical_ocaml_good_idea_bad_book_by_its_tech/
2021-05-01T22:41:45Z jcowan: Your contract with Apress should define "out of print"
2021-05-01T22:42:10Z gigamonkey: Yeah, well, it was written before P.O.D. was a big thing. I don't think it really does.
2021-05-01T22:42:38Z gigamonkey: like in the days when they actually paid, in advance to print copies that sat in inventory somewhere, it was out of print when they stopped printing new copies.
2021-05-01T22:42:46Z jcowan: https://web.archive.org/web/20120608181620/http://blog.merjis.com/2006/11/08/practical-ocaml/
2021-05-01T22:43:16Z dieggsy: heh, i just went there too
2021-05-01T22:43:40Z gigamonkey: oh, duh. of course.
2021-05-01T22:44:45Z jcowan: I have a Chrome plugin that redirects 404s to the IA.
2021-05-01T22:45:25Z dieggsy: jcowan: oh that sounds great.. wonder if there's a firefox one.
2021-05-01T22:45:27Z dieggsy: what's it called ?
2021-05-01T22:46:31Z jcowan: "Wayback Machine"
2021-05-01T22:46:33Z jcowan: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/wayback-machine/fpnmgdkabkmnadcjpehmlllkndpkmiak?hl=en-US
2021-05-01T22:47:07Z jcowan: the FF one is https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/wayback-machine_new/
2021-05-01T22:47:38Z jcowan: sometimes it tries to redirect you if a POST is running very slowly, I think
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2021-05-01T22:48:33Z jcowan: it's reasonable to redirect a GET timeout
2021-05-01T22:49:14Z jcowan: gigamonkey: If you feel like doing a favor for the non-CL Lisp communities, you can certainly ask for the rights back even if you are not legally entitled to them.
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2021-05-01T22:49:33Z dieggsy: huh, it might not be working for me because my stupid internet provider tries to handle not found on its own
2021-05-01T22:49:41Z dieggsy: it serves some "verizon - not found" page instead. that's annoying
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2021-05-01T22:59:08Z gigamonkey: jcowan: Apress loves putting out derivitive works. I'm sure if someone wants to write a Practical Scheme they could talk to Apress about it. And if they really want to start from PCL I guess they'd have to do a deal with me. But I doubt Apress is just going to let go of the rights.
2021-05-01T23:00:20Z jcowan: The PO'C comments say that APress turned down a later proposal for Practical C
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2021-05-01T23:02:15Z gigamonkey: Oh, found my contract "The Work shall be deemed out-of-print if it is not available for sale in reasonable quantities in normal trade channels".
2021-05-01T23:02:33Z gigamonkey: So as long as the P.O.D. folks keep doing their thing, it will never go "out of print".
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2021-05-01T23:17:40Z edgar-rft: as long as the "demand" folks will not fail doing their job :-)
2021-05-01T23:18:16Z saturn2: gigamonkey: very interesting talk, thank you
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2021-05-01T23:39:20Z jcowan: I read the other essays at your site, and I'm extremely impressed with all of them.
2021-05-01T23:40:12Z jcowan: I also looked a little bit into the old blog and the "forgotten ~U".  Scheme's format is based on combinators rather than a stringly DSL, and it supports both 2^10 and 10^3 prefix scaling.
2021-05-01T23:43:23Z gigamonkey: jcowan: thanks!
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2021-05-01T23:55:28Z gigamonkey: jcowan: link to Scheme's format that you're talking about? All the docs I can find seem to be for something lifted from CL.
2021-05-01T23:56:21Z jcowan: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-166/srfi-166.html
2021-05-01T23:57:34Z jcowan: see the "Implementation" section for links to three implementations.
2021-05-01T23:57:55Z jcowan: Bug me or #scheme if you are readimng the code and find anything obscure.
2021-05-01T23:58:07Z gigamonkey: Yeah, I get the urge. On the other hand I actually think sometimes it's better to have the format be just a bunch of maximally concise line noise.
2021-05-01T23:59:02Z jcowan: Until six months from now.
2021-05-01T23:59:22Z jcowan: Granted, you can ram all that into your head, but once you reach the limit of what cl:format does, that's it.
2021-05-01T23:59:44Z jcowan: join #posix
2021-05-01T23:59:53Z jcowan: oops
2021-05-02T00:00:10Z gigamonkey: E_BAD_JOIN
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2021-05-02T00:01:41Z gigamonkey: Yeah, in my dream Lisp there might be a *formatter* special variable that would get passed the format string and would return a function that generates the output. So if you wanted you could do (let ((*formatter* #'my-funky-dsl-parser)) (format t "whatever you want here" stuff more-stuff))
2021-05-02T00:02:11Z gigamonkey: Thought that's more about extensibility than readabiliy.
2021-05-02T00:03:12Z no-defun-allowed: You can use any function which acts like one returned from FORMATTER as format control.
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2021-05-02T00:04:02Z gigamonkey: Yeah, that's similar.
2021-05-02T00:04:09Z no-defun-allowed: That makes it (format t (dsl-parser "some notation") stuff more-stuff)
2021-05-02T00:04:31Z gigamonkey: And I guess with a read macro or two you're most of the way there.
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2021-05-02T00:06:14Z gigamonkey: Or maybe a *format-table* that maps chars to functions so you can add characters that have meaning after a ~
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2021-05-02T00:06:23Z pjb: So something like: (defvar *formatter* (function formatter))  (format t (funcall *formatter*  "whatever you want here") stuff more-stuff)
2021-05-02T00:06:32Z pjb: but you would not want to see the (funcall *formatter* ?
2021-05-02T00:06:58Z pjb: (defun my-formatter-with-my-~-escapes (string) (lambda …))
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2021-05-02T00:07:10Z gigamonkey: Well, I want to be able to see the string at the FORMAT call site.
2021-05-02T00:07:18Z pjb: (setf *formatter* (function my-formatter-with-my-~-escapes))
2021-05-02T00:07:32Z pjb: (format t (funcall *formatter*  "whatever with my ~escapes here") stuff more-stuff)
2021-05-02T00:07:37Z gigamonkey: So (format t "I love UNIX %f%%" 100.0)
2021-05-02T00:07:55Z gigamonkey: Where the format string was obviously processed by a different parser than the default CL format string parser.
2021-05-02T00:08:05Z pjb: or directly: (format t (unix-formatter "I love UNIX %f%%") 100)
2021-05-02T00:08:25Z gigamonkey: Yup. That would get the same effect.
2021-05-02T00:08:31Z pjb: gigamonkey: format control n. a format string, or a function that obeys the argument conventions for a function returned by the formatter macro. See Section 22.2.1.3 (Compiling Format Strings).
2021-05-02T00:08:55Z gigamonkey: Though I like my *format-table* idea better, now. Because then I could implement the lost ~U directive without having to rewrite everything else.
2021-05-02T00:09:03Z pjb: Possibly you could hide your formatter function in a reader macro.
2021-05-02T00:09:10Z gigamonkey: Yes, as I said above.
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2021-05-02T00:09:13Z jcowan: 166 does have explicit extension: see "Higher Order Formatters and State"
2021-05-02T00:09:16Z pjb: and of course you can go thru all the indirections and tables you want!
2021-05-02T00:09:33Z pjb: format has enough extensibility as it is!
2021-05-02T00:09:57Z jcowan: Having a format-table is reasonable for stringly formatters
2021-05-02T00:10:07Z gigamonkey: the extensibility is kinda gross though due to the package issue.
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2021-05-02T00:10:26Z gigamonkey: imo
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2021-05-02T00:48:56Z jcowan: Unlike readtables, format tables would typically not matter at compile time.
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2021-05-02T01:42:32Z White_Flame: jcowan: format is often used to create symbol names in macros
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2021-05-02T01:54:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: White_Flame: yeah, and when I run with *print-case* :downcase, I find all those libraries
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2021-05-02T01:55:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: Those sorts of macros should use WITH-STANDARD-IO-SYNTAX
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2021-05-02T01:57:01Z White_Flame: yeah, print & read being divergent is not great
2021-05-02T01:57:35Z White_Flame: at least I use symbols as input when concatenating text for new symbol names
2021-05-02T01:58:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, that's what I tend to do too, but it doesn't solve the *print-case* issue
2021-05-02T01:58:17Z White_Flame: yep
2021-05-02T01:58:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: Wrapping your macro definition with WITH-STANDARD-IO-SYNTAX should, because it's defined to rebind print=case
2021-05-02T01:58:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs Erik Naggum
2021-05-02T01:58:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs Erik Naggum
2021-05-02T01:58:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs Erik Naggum
2021-05-02T01:58:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs WITH-STANDARD-IO-SYNTAX
2021-05-02T01:58:57Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_std_.htm
2021-05-02T01:59:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: (emacs fail)
2021-05-02T01:59:57Z no-defun-allowed: If you say "clhs Erik Naggum" in the mirror three times at midnight...
2021-05-02T02:00:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: I know Erik Naggum was involved in the SGML standardization efforts, are there any reasonably complete lisp implementations of SGML?
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2021-05-02T02:17:45Z waleee-cl: emacs has some sgml stuff in a menu somewhere at least
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2021-05-02T03:02:43Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-05-02T03:09:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: morning, beach!
2021-05-02T03:12:47Z beach: nij: With respect to CommonDoc, I see some design decisions that I would have done differently.
2021-05-02T03:13:15Z beach: nij: For parsing the dpANS, I really haven't thought about it.  But I guess it's moot, since it seems to be done now.
2021-05-02T03:14:20Z White_Flame: where is the latest on that parse?
2021-05-02T03:15:11Z beach: Looks like theothornhill did it.
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2021-05-02T03:19:34Z dieggsy: re: my earlier question about a hunchentoot server that does block, you can just (make-instance 'hunchentoot:easy-acceptor :taskmaster (make-instance 'hunchentoot:single-threaded-taskmaster) ...)
2021-05-02T03:20:04Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, then a. it is single threaded and b. how are you supposed to stop it properly?
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2021-05-02T03:20:56Z dieggsy: *no-defun-allowed*: i'm storing the acceptor in a variable and defining an easy handler that stops it, since all i need is a server that handles a single request
2021-05-02T03:20:58Z dieggsy: it seems to work
2021-05-02T03:21:22Z dieggsy: so the handler takes the request, does something with the info, then stops the acceptor
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2021-05-02T05:06:42Z beach: Suppose we had a documentation system based on (say) "chunks", and each chunk is a standard object that can be read and written using READ and PRINT perhaps with one or two additional reader macros.  Suppose further that each chunk has a unique identifier based on Common Lisp universal time plus some random number.
2021-05-02T05:06:52Z beach: In other words, chunk identifiers can be created by the person creating the chunk and we are reasonably sure it is going to be unique.  Also, suppose these chunks can either be inlined into other chunks or referred to from other chunks.  We could even go so far as to have each individual words be a separate chunk.
2021-05-02T05:07:04Z beach: Such word chunks could then be used in other applications such as spell checkers and grammar checkers.  So far so good.  However, I would like some input on the process of creating the "database" of chunks.  First of all, we can't assume that every word in English (let's start with English) has been turned into a chunk.  So we probably need to allow for a Common Lisp string to replace a word chunk.
2021-05-02T05:07:12Z beach: I can see an interactive (CLIM-based?) editor that would allow people to create chunks, and perhaps also taking strings and substituting word chunks in the data base.  This process could be "manual" but supported by the tool.  For example, a string that has a word chunk in the data base could be highlighted, and the user could examine the possible chunks and select one.
2021-05-02T05:07:13Z beach: But here is where I need a discussion: How do we maintain the "database" of chunks?  Individual users will create chunks and store them locally, but how do we merge individual "databases"?  Also, we might want to merge updates to a chunk from different users.  Should we then create a tool that checks for conflicts and such?  And who is in charge of the merge?
2021-05-02T05:08:05Z beach will probably regret having started this thread.
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2021-05-02T05:17:05Z beach: Maybe I am exaggerating the problem?  Maybe each chunk would belong to some "library" that would be managed just like code libraries are, i.e., there will be one or more maintainers for a GIT repository and people will submit pull requests.
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2021-05-02T05:30:02Z beach: I should perhaps give some examples of chunk types, so that the idea becomes more clear.  The lowest level chunks would be morpheme chunks, word chunks, phrase chunks, sentence chunks, paragraph chunks.  Then there would be inline chunks, reference chunks for inserting or referring to other chunks.
2021-05-02T05:30:03Z beach: There would be bibliography chunks, figure chunks, math formula chunks, etc.  And there would be specific chunks for documenting code, like chunks corresponding to the different DOCUMENTATION methods, chunks for referring to names in programs like class names, function names, etc.  I don't have a complete list of chunk types yet, of course.
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2021-05-02T06:16:11Z fe[nl]ix: beach: this sounds like RDF ontologies
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2021-05-02T06:19:51Z easye perks up at the mention of RDF ontologies.
2021-05-02T06:19:58Z easye waves to fe[nl]ix 
2021-05-02T06:20:03Z easye nods morning to beach.
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2021-05-02T06:21:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: That's another thing I've never been able to find a practical use for
2021-05-02T06:22:05Z easye: Strictly speaking, RDF only has the simplest possible scaffolding for ontologies.  One usually layers in  something like OWL2 for any real ontological reasoning.  OWL2 happens to have an RDF serialization, which might confuse things.
2021-05-02T06:22:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: And/or lisp tools with decent documentation
2021-05-02T06:23:06Z easye: One can get pretty far with abcl by using W3C RDF stacks which tend to have a JVM implementation.
2021-05-02T06:23:37Z easye: c.f. <https://github.com/alanruttenberg/lsw2> for a several decade long project that takes this approach.
2021-05-02T06:25:45Z beach: fe[nl]ix: I don't see any ontology in there at all.
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2021-05-02T06:26:26Z easye: We will be having an ELS2021 dress rehearsal today sometime after 1000 UTC in which we could use people to help smoke test the participatory a/v infrastructure we have been preparing.  Join #elsconf for details if you are interested.
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2021-05-02T06:35:34Z fe[nl]ix: beach: "morpheme chunks, word chunks, phrase chunks, sentence chunks, paragraph chunks" <- those are ontologies
2021-05-02T06:36:38Z beach: Fair enough.
2021-05-02T06:36:43Z fe[nl]ix: beach: the problem I see there is that most people who write documentation don't want to accurately annotate what they're writing
2021-05-02T06:37:05Z fe[nl]ix: it's much more convenient to just write text and rely on the readers to figure out the context
2021-05-02T06:37:11Z beach: And they won't have to because of the strings.
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2021-05-02T06:40:17Z phoe:    /21
2021-05-02T06:40:31Z phoe: oops
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2021-05-02T07:22:45Z splittist: beach: I'm missing the point of having a shared database of chunks. Is this for collaborating on public documentation, or ... ?
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2021-05-02T07:27:28Z beach: splittist: It would be good if low-level chunks such as words, bibliography entries, etc. were shared.
2021-05-02T07:27:55Z beach: splittist: But I guess that's not terribly important.
2021-05-02T07:28:43Z beach: splittist: Also, for the purpose of cross references, like if the documentation for one system would like to refer to the documentation of another system.
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2021-05-02T07:30:34Z saganman: Morning beach
2021-05-02T07:30:41Z saganman: Morning #lisp
2021-05-02T07:30:43Z beach: Hello saganman.
2021-05-02T07:31:04Z saganman: Happy Weekend!
2021-05-02T07:33:05Z beach: nij: See the logs for ideas on the kind of documentation system I might want to see.  As you can see, CommonDoc is not quite it.  Also, don't expect me to be present between 19:00 and 05:00.  And, try to avoid private messages for subjects that are interesting to more than you and me.
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2021-05-02T07:34:26Z beach: I guess I would have to create some kind of demo of the "chunk" system to see whether it is technically feasible.
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2021-05-02T07:50:54Z splittist: beach: OK. I keep thinking about #<chunk "Very secret stuff" #xABCD> and #<chunk "Personally identifiable information, imposing obligations on everyone who has a copy" #xFACE> etc.
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2021-05-02T08:08:35Z beach: splittist: Sharing would not be an obligation, if that's what you think.
2021-05-02T08:09:15Z jdz: There's also the #<chunk "I thought this is OK to share, but then got fired. #xDEADBEEF>.
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2021-05-02T08:11:36Z jdz: beach: This reminds me of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Xanadu.
2021-05-02T08:12:19Z jdz: Heh, "zippered lists" sound much cooler than "chunks."
2021-05-02T08:12:42Z jdz: At least in this channel.
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2021-05-02T09:36:18Z theothornhill: I mailed Kent Pitman about the dpANS to see if he knows the status with regards to copyrights for the hyperspec and the dpans.  Hopefully he knows something about it and is willing to share
2021-05-02T09:37:10Z beach: Good idea!
2021-05-02T09:38:01Z theothornhill: Worth a try, at least
2021-05-02T09:38:17Z beach: Absolutely.
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2021-05-02T09:39:06Z theothornhill: beach: as for the document, how do you envision I handle the macros? I can expand everything now using this perl script, but I lose a lot of semantics doing that
2021-05-02T09:39:36Z beach: Good question.  I haven't given it enough thought.
2021-05-02T09:39:54Z theothornhill: I think it might be better to expand all the "\input foo" and concatenate everything and use the macros as parsable items
2021-05-02T09:40:09Z beach: I take your word for it.
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2021-05-02T09:40:26Z beach: We could also contact ANSI.  They do not seem to make any money from this particular standard.
2021-05-02T09:40:52Z theothornhill: Now it is simple to grab the two \displaythree{Foo}{Bar}, rather than 75 lines of tex primitives
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2021-05-02T09:47:19Z theothornhill: beach: I'll pop a mail to a few of them :P
2021-05-02T09:47:30Z beach: "them"?
2021-05-02T09:47:59Z theothornhill: https://www.ansi.org/about/staff#sort=%40titlecomputed%20ascending
2021-05-02T09:48:07Z theothornhill: Not sure who's in charge
2021-05-02T09:48:18Z theothornhill: I'm guessing Anne Caldas
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2021-05-02T09:48:30Z beach: I see.
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2021-05-02T11:46:39Z phoe: theothornhill: the consensus is that dpANS3 is public domain
2021-05-02T11:46:46Z phoe: and the standard is a copyrighted rendition of that
2021-05-02T11:50:47Z phoe: http://nhplace.com/kent/Papers/cl-untold-story.html 6.2
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2021-05-02T11:52:17Z phoe: "We, as a community, expect to continue to own the spec." is the particular quote I am interested in
2021-05-02T11:52:45Z phoe: in this context, I can infer that the specification is public domain but a standard that's based on it to the point of being identical is ANSI-copyrighted
2021-05-02T11:54:50Z phoe: and ANSI copyrights the fact that it has "the standard", along with the graphical rendition of it
2021-05-02T11:55:19Z phoe: but it can't copyright the sources behind it, which is dpANS3, the result of X3J13
2021-05-02T11:55:56Z Inline: the xerox group
2021-05-02T11:56:08Z Inline: in palo alto yeah ?
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2021-05-02T11:58:13Z phoe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X3J13
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2021-05-02T12:02:19Z MrtnDk[m]: !wikipedia X3J13
2021-05-02T12:02:21Z Wikipedia[m]:#lisp- *X3J13* is the name of a technical committee which was part of the International Committee for Information Technology Standards (INCITS, then named X3 ). The X3J13 committee was formed in 1986 to draw up an American National Standards Institute (ANSI) Common Lisp standard based on the first edition of the book Common Lisp the Language (also termed CLtL , or CLtL1 ), by Guy L. Steele Jr., which was formerly a de facto
2021-05-02T12:02:21Z Wikipedia[m]:#lisp- standard for the language. The primary output of X3J13 was an American National Standard for programming language Common Lisp (X3.226/1994), approved December 8, 1994. X3J13 later worked with International Organization for Standardization (ISO) working group SC22/WG16 on an internationally standardised dialect of Lisp named ISLISP.
2021-05-02T12:02:21Z Wikipedia[m]:#lisp- ------------
2021-05-02T12:02:21Z Wikipedia[m]:#lisp- Organisation
2021-05-02T12:02:21Z Wikipedia[m]:#lisp- ------------
2021-05-02T12:02:21Z Wikipedia[m]:#lisp- The original chair of the committee was Doctor Robert Mathis of Ohio State University, with Mary van Deusen as secretary. Guy L. Steele Jr. was originally the vice-chair. In later years, Mathis stepped down as chair and Steele a...
2021-05-02T12:02:21Z Wikipedia[m]:#lisp- http://en.wikipedia.org/?curid=2057519
2021-05-02T12:02:40Z phoe: nice
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2021-05-02T12:03:01Z no-defun-allowed: Thankyou for taking a bot to #lisp. Though if it makes okay output on IRC it'd be nice.
2021-05-02T12:03:17Z Inline: ah sorry
2021-05-02T12:03:49Z no-defun-allowed: Okay, so the bot says nothing on IRC and Mrtn Dk looks like they are talking to the wind.
2021-05-02T12:03:54Z MrtnDk[m]: Oh, this is the IRC-lisp room. Sorry.
2021-05-02T12:04:19Z phoe: no-defun-allowed: I actually can't see the bot output in the tymoon log, which is decent
2021-05-02T12:04:34Z phoe: but I see the output in my IRC client
2021-05-02T12:04:55Z no-defun-allowed: Just "<foo> sent a long message" or something else?
2021-05-02T12:05:47Z phoe: a whole big snippet of the article; I'll send a screenshot on query
2021-05-02T12:06:39Z no-defun-allowed: Does that bother you? Don't read it as if I'm saying it should, I'm just wondering.
2021-05-02T12:07:59Z no-defun-allowed: Suppose saying "nice" suggests it doesn't. I'll be more awake in 46 hours surely.
2021-05-02T12:09:59Z phoe: doesn't bother me
2021-05-02T12:10:15Z phoe: if it was used multiple times a day it probably would but it's the first time I ever saw it here, so nah
2021-05-02T12:10:58Z _death: I don't think bots should generate multiple messages given a single command
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2021-05-02T12:13:25Z _death: even if there are other means of rate control, it's just clutter and I'll likely /ignore it
2021-05-02T12:17:32Z phoe: that too
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2021-05-02T12:24:16Z MrtnDk[m]: I guess if an @ on IRC side kicks the bot, it will be kicked on the matrix side as well. fe[nl]ix
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2021-05-02T12:33:35Z jeosol: phoe: I realized you are one of the contributors listed on cl:yesql. Is it possible to somehow issue multiple commands, e.g., a create extension command, then a CREATE table command, and possible an index later on. See this paste: https://pastebin.ubuntu.com/p/BZfhCVMGMC/
2021-05-02T12:34:14Z jeosol: So far, i get errors that "cannot insert multipe commands into a prepared statement".
2021-05-02T12:35:35Z jeosol: I am doing small tests, the issues i sometimes get with ORM's makes me want to explore the alternative and write the sql queries. So I started looking at alternatives
2021-05-02T12:36:17Z phoe: jeosol: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/19589841/pg-prepare-cannot-insert-multiple-commands-into-a-prepared-statement
2021-05-02T12:36:23Z phoe: that's a postgres limitation, not a yesql one
2021-05-02T12:36:59Z jeosol: Thanks. for clearning that up. When I split the command into separate function calls, it works. Closed
2021-05-02T12:37:15Z phoe: perfect
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2021-05-02T12:38:04Z jeosol: so what's your take and experience on the ORM use
2021-05-02T12:38:29Z phoe: I actually found cl-yesql really useful to be able to avoid ORMs in general
2021-05-02T12:38:39Z phoe: (since that's my take, and a bit of experience)
2021-05-02T12:38:59Z jeosol: Yeah, I agree with that, which is why I started learning it
2021-05-02T12:39:03Z phoe: it's a really really nice wrapper that allows me to treat SQL statements as Lisp functions
2021-05-02T12:39:32Z phoe: and it just works™ - I only had trouble with the initial setup and overlord/vernacular when combo'd with some EVAL-ALWAYS situations, but afterwards, it works
2021-05-02T12:39:56Z jeosol: I am no postmodern or mito expert, but sometimes, the lack of transparency and need for more complex operations, I start having problems
2021-05-02T12:40:41Z jeosol: I understand SQL more so using the queries directly seems to present less issues. And then you get the statement as functions.
2021-05-02T12:40:59Z jeosol: Yes, I did benefit from those examples to get the initial setup to work
2021-05-02T12:41:01Z phoe: and you get to write unit tests in Lisp for those that treat these functions as API
2021-05-02T12:41:07Z phoe: I really like this
2021-05-02T12:41:57Z jeosol: phoe: I do agree. cent pourcent
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2021-05-02T12:42:34Z jeosol: I haven't been here much; have some abstracts that are due and trying to finish some of the work; crazy days
2021-05-02T12:42:52Z phoe: yes
2021-05-02T12:43:04Z phoe: and here I'm busy with #.*dayjob* and ELS prep work
2021-05-02T12:43:17Z phoe: things are looking good for the latter and not very good for the former, but that's business as usual
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2021-05-02T12:44:06Z jeosol: Regarding ELS, do you guys accept paper about application, e.g., describing the use of CL to build an application?
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2021-05-02T12:45:08Z jeosol: great work by the way. I'll get to support you guys soon. My task is coming to an end, once I get the web thingy going
2021-05-02T12:45:32Z phoe: jeosol: I think we generally accept those, yes
2021-05-02T12:45:36Z phoe: heisig will be able to confirm
2021-05-02T12:45:58Z phoe: (though I personally think it would be a welcome submission next year)
2021-05-02T12:47:00Z jeosol: I'll like to contribute something along those lines. I know it's closed for this year
2021-05-02T12:47:06Z heisig: jeosol: Yes, ELS accepts both classical academic papers of up to eight pages, and software demonstrations of up to four pages.
2021-05-02T12:48:32Z phoe: jeosol: please do, then!
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2021-05-02T12:50:12Z jeosol: phoe, heisig: Thanks for confirmation; I like to contribute something.
2021-05-02T12:51:15Z jeosol: I benefitted a lot from the answers to my earlier questions here. Great job guys
2021-05-02T12:51:24Z phoe: :D
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2021-05-02T13:21:36Z seok: anyone experience latency using libraries which use winhttp?
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2021-05-02T13:22:05Z seok: I often get timeout error on dexador from winhttp, and is also quite slow
2021-05-02T13:22:36Z seok: When I run the same piece of code on a linux machine on the same network it's blazingly fast, no problem
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2021-05-02T14:10:20Z lotuseater: why does the disassemble of functions with TAGBODY gets so big? ^^
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2021-05-02T14:10:51Z loke[m]: lotuseater: Do they?
2021-05-02T14:10:55Z loke[m]: Which Lisp impementation?
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2021-05-02T14:11:33Z lotuseater: on SBCL
2021-05-02T14:11:40Z lotuseater: yeah i wondered too
2021-05-02T14:11:55Z loke[m]: Do you have a specific example?
2021-05-02T14:12:05Z lotuseater: i have here a TAGBODY with four labels and it gets 1100 bytes big
2021-05-02T14:12:26Z lotuseater: yes an algorithm from TAOCP volume 4
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2021-05-02T14:14:02Z loke[m]: I just did this, and I don't think it's any bigger than you'd expect:
2021-05-02T14:14:02Z loke[m]: (disassemble #'(lambda (x) (tagbody a (print 1) (go c) b (print 2) (go d) c (print 3) (go b) d (print 4))))
2021-05-02T14:14:42Z loke[m]: All I can tell from that is that there seems to be nothing special about TAGBODY. You'll have to come up with an example we can run so we have something to analyse.
2021-05-02T14:15:16Z lotuseater: https://paste.ofcode.org/3aMi9ybC2kjJXgbZxg2FL8r
2021-05-02T14:15:35Z lotuseater: it compiles, but at some point there's a fail with indexing by -1
2021-05-02T14:15:49Z lotuseater: yeah okay
2021-05-02T14:17:12Z lotuseater: the indexing is most times mathematically done, starting by 1
2021-05-02T14:17:25Z madage: 3
2021-05-02T14:17:31Z madage: ops
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2021-05-02T14:18:17Z lotuseater: madage :)
2021-05-02T14:19:02Z loke[m]: lotuseater: Well, if that thing is bigger than you expect, it's not because of TAGBODy
2021-05-02T14:19:12Z beach: lotuseater: How did you determine the size is due to TAGBODY?
2021-05-02T14:19:22Z loke[m]: If you want to optimise it, the first thing you need to do is add type declarations.
2021-05-02T14:19:25Z lotuseater: yes, but the 1100bytes is ok, i just wondered
2021-05-02T14:19:58Z lotuseater: beach: i didn't explicitely (and can't read the assembly output)
2021-05-02T14:20:17Z loke[m]: Am I missing something by the way? L2, L3 and L4 don't seem to be used. This is just an infinite loop, no?
2021-05-02T14:20:40Z lotuseater: yes loke[m], i will, but first it should work correctly and 1:1 as the algorithm is given
2021-05-02T14:20:57Z lotuseater: no, it terminates when j=0
2021-05-02T14:20:58Z beach: lotuseater: That size doesn't sound unreasonable to me.
2021-05-02T14:21:15Z loke[m]: beach: Same to me.
2021-05-02T14:21:21Z lotuseater: i didn't mean unreasonable, just wanted to ask if it's normal :)
2021-05-02T14:21:25Z loke[m]: Also, no optimisations nor type decalarations.
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2021-05-02T14:21:53Z lotuseater: so what optimisations you would make beside the obvious?
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2021-05-02T14:22:46Z beach: What makes you think the loop terminates?
2021-05-02T14:22:57Z lotuseater: why "think"?
2021-05-02T14:23:12Z lotuseater: because the algorithm is given this way
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2021-05-02T14:23:23Z beach: Oh, return-from.  OK.
2021-05-02T14:23:30Z lotuseater: yes in L2
2021-05-02T14:24:27Z beach: Do you take remarks on the programming style?
2021-05-02T14:25:23Z lotuseater: how do you mean that?
2021-05-02T14:25:33Z lotuseater: it's basically this (one page): https://trash.randomerror.de/ev4tw/algorithm-k.pdf
2021-05-02T14:25:57Z beach: Like for instance: (let (... perms) ...) means "I am not initializing perms explicitly because I intend to assign to it before it is used"  But then you use it before you assign to it.
2021-05-02T14:26:47Z lotuseater: ah hm this part is for prototyping, it's an empty list at the beginning
2021-05-02T14:26:58Z beach: And (= j 0) is better expressed as (zerop j).  There is a general rule in programming that you should use the most specific construct that will do the work.
2021-05-02T14:27:35Z beach: lotuseater: Semantically, it's an empty list, but it is not an empty list in the message that you send to the person reading your code.
2021-05-02T14:27:35Z lotuseater: yes you're right of course :)
2021-05-02T14:27:44Z lotuseater: yes
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2021-05-02T14:53:18Z dieggsy: beach: wait, so what's the difference between (let ((this) ...) ...) and (let (this ...) ...))
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2021-05-02T14:54:38Z lotuseater: hm the former wouldn't work in this form, will it?
2021-05-02T14:54:49Z lotuseater: the latter initializes with NIL
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2021-05-02T14:55:20Z TMA: dieggsy: just stylistic
2021-05-02T14:55:34Z TMA: lotuseater: both will bind this to nil
2021-05-02T14:55:43Z beach: dieggsy: Semantically, there is no difference, but I see no use for (let ((this)
2021-05-02T14:55:52Z beach: TMA: "just"?
2021-05-02T14:55:56Z lotuseater: ah okay
2021-05-02T14:55:58Z dieggsy: lotuseater: the former is actually what i use lol, only because i didn't realize (let (this ...) ...) is alllowed
2021-05-02T14:56:11Z lotuseater: haha and for me vice versa :)
2021-05-02T14:56:45Z beach: If you write a compiler for Common Lisp, you will have to know all the variants. :)
2021-05-02T14:57:01Z TMA: beach: I have written a (part of a) compiler, I am prone to dismiss differences that have no effect on the resulting code.
2021-05-02T14:57:12Z vms14: must be hard to write a common lisp compiler
2021-05-02T14:57:26Z beach: TMA: I am sorry to hear that.  You are giving your maintainer a hard time.
2021-05-02T14:57:27Z lotuseater: but with this now I even once more get the feeling I can become at anything and that makes me sad, but it's too offtopic
2021-05-02T14:57:46Z vms14: don't even know how abcl devs wanted to use java for writing a lisp compiler
2021-05-02T14:57:51Z vms14: that must be a real pain
2021-05-02T14:57:53Z lotuseater: *good
2021-05-02T14:58:33Z vms14: I suppose the way is to write minimal stuff in the "host language" and much as possible in your lisp implementation
2021-05-02T14:58:37Z lotuseater: yeah but after a certain point you can write most stuff in lisp
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2021-05-02T15:00:01Z dieggsy: beach: which compiler did you write ?
2021-05-02T15:00:04Z beach: vms14: Is ABCL written in Java?  I am asking because there is no particular reason to do that.
2021-05-02T15:00:05Z TMA: beach: I am my own maintainer, mostly (the rest of my work no longer maintained).  But I do have rather strong style preferences.  I just resigned trying to enforce them on others or explaining them.
2021-05-02T15:00:44Z beach: TMA: I see.  I find that even if I am the maintainer of my own code, I have to be very disciplined, or else I won't forget it some weeks later.
2021-05-02T15:01:04Z beach: minion: Please tell dieggsy about SICL.
2021-05-02T15:01:05Z minion: dieggsy: SICL: SICL is a (perhaps futile) attempt to re-implement Common Lisp from scratch, hopefully using improved programming and bootstrapping techniques. See https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL
2021-05-02T15:01:10Z beach: minion: Please tell dieggsy about Cleavir.
2021-05-02T15:01:10Z minion: dieggsy: Cleavir: A project to create an implementation-independent compilation framework for Common Lisp. Currently Cleavir is part of SICL, but that might change in the future
2021-05-02T15:01:26Z lotuseater: hehe
2021-05-02T15:01:49Z lotuseater: and then the new McCLIM
2021-05-02T15:01:56Z beach: vms14: There is no particular reason to use any "host language" at all, as the SICL bootstrapping technique shows.
2021-05-02T15:02:02Z vms14: beach: it seems https://github.com/armedbear/abcl/tree/master/src/org/armedbear/lisp
2021-05-02T15:02:23Z dieggsy: beach: ah, sweet
2021-05-02T15:02:30Z beach: vms14: I see.  :(
2021-05-02T15:03:18Z TMA: beach: I do have quite consistent style, I think. I use it when not under undue time pressure. In the other case anything goes. It makes me sad, though less sad than missed deadline.
2021-05-02T15:03:37Z vms14: my technique is to use s7 scheme, which is a .h and a .c file and you can just add your own stuff in it, but it's scheme not cl, which meh. I really prefer cl, I guess just because it's the lisp I used
2021-05-02T15:03:42Z beach: TMA: I see, yes.
2021-05-02T15:04:04Z beach: dieggsy: The compiler framework is in use production in Clasp, and the SICL compiler is of course based on it too.
2021-05-02T15:04:05Z TMA: Consistent and sensible style is very good otherwise.
2021-05-02T15:04:08Z vms14: and don't like that define is also defun
2021-05-02T15:05:23Z beach: dieggsy: Oh, and I should add that, even though I started it, Bike and karlosz have done a lot of work on Cleavir lately.
2021-05-02T15:06:49Z beach: vms14: So it is hard to write a Common Lisp compiler, but it is an order of magnitude harder to write an implementation-independent compiler framework. :)
2021-05-02T15:08:32Z lotuseater has high respect for things like that and asks how he can ever catch up to this expertise
2021-05-02T15:09:22Z vms14: to write lisp you first write lisp so it helps you writing lisp
2021-05-02T15:09:26Z beach: lotuseater: It has taken me the better part of a lifetime, because I am not particularly smart; just stubborn.
2021-05-02T15:10:12Z lotuseater: haha ok, so also training :) and good advises by the wise people
2021-05-02T15:10:27Z vms14: lispers are so used to recursion that they use recursion in they whole design
2021-05-02T15:10:57Z vms14: their*
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2021-05-02T15:38:27Z ecraven: thanks for pointing out cl-yesql, this finally seems like a sane approach to "sql as a dsl"
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2021-05-02T15:57:04Z engblom: When building up a plist, is it ok to first push value and then push key? Or could I push both at the same time?
2021-05-02T15:58:23Z nij: How are you going to build a plist?
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2021-05-02T15:59:36Z vms14: engblom: for symbol property lists I always used (set) for any property
2021-05-02T15:59:41Z vms14: even made a macro named setp
2021-05-02T15:59:52Z vms14: (defun setp (symbol property value)
2021-05-02T15:59:54Z vms14:   (setf (get symbol property) value))
2021-05-02T16:00:17Z engblom: nij: It will be something like (:key1 :value1 :key2 :value2 :key3 :value3 ...) and I will begin with an empty list, and then adding one pair at the time
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2021-05-02T16:00:49Z beach: engblom: You can push the value and then the key, provided you don't use the list between the two operations.
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2021-05-02T16:00:56Z beach: engblom: Why would it not be OK?
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2021-05-02T16:01:34Z engblom: beach: Thanks, then I will do so. I am just asking if it is OK, as I am still very new to lisp and somtimes there are better ways to do things that what I know about.
2021-05-02T16:01:54Z beach: It might not be the best way.  It depends.
2021-05-02T16:02:35Z beach: clhs get
2021-05-02T16:02:36Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_get.htm
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2021-05-02T16:02:47Z beach: engblom: You can use SETF with GET.
2021-05-02T16:03:16Z nij: There are many ways. At the end just make sure you get something you want. Then it's ok.
2021-05-02T16:03:17Z vms14: engblom: usually defstruct is recommended over plists don't really know why
2021-05-02T16:03:29Z beach: Er, GETF, I mean.
2021-05-02T16:03:45Z nij: But I've heard someone saying it's better to only use plist operations.. aka we should live on top of the abstraction..
2021-05-02T16:04:27Z beach: engblom: You can use SETF with GETF.
2021-05-02T16:04:30Z beach: clhs getf
2021-05-02T16:04:31Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_getf.htm
2021-05-02T16:04:35Z nij: minion, tell theothornhill that I've read the log and am glad to know if there's any news back from the people you mail.
2021-05-02T16:04:38Z minion: theothornhill: and if not?
2021-05-02T16:04:42Z vms14: pjb: recommended me to use defstruct over plist, I've just obeyed without no reasoning about
2021-05-02T16:05:00Z nij: Is minion sane? Should I trust if minion will really deliver my message :-(?
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2021-05-02T16:05:24Z beach: minion: Are you sane?
2021-05-02T16:05:24Z minion: no
2021-05-02T16:05:36Z vms14: https://termbin.com/hj0w
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2021-05-02T16:05:39Z nij: shoot
2021-05-02T16:05:47Z vms14: that's the proof he told me that xD
2021-05-02T16:06:06Z vms14: ;; Those structures will go on the lists ;; pjb recommended me to use defstruct ;; instead of property values of symbols ;; 2020-04-13
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2021-05-02T16:06:12Z engblom: beach: I tested it. I did not know you can use (setf (getf plist :key) "foo") when :key do not exist yet, but it does what I want
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2021-05-02T16:07:02Z nij: setf is magic
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2021-05-02T16:07:54Z phoe: minion: memo for nij: the syntax looks like this
2021-05-02T16:07:54Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell nij when he/she/it next speaks.
2021-05-02T16:07:59Z ebrasca: How to customize mahogany?
2021-05-02T16:08:21Z nij: I remember there's a CL system that allows you to get access to a specific place of a highly nested object easily.. is it called accessor?
2021-05-02T16:08:21Z minion: nij, memo from phoe: the syntax looks like this
2021-05-02T16:09:31Z nij: minion: memo for theothornhill: I've read the log and am glad to know if there's any news back from the people you mail.
2021-05-02T16:09:31Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell theothornhill when he/she/it next speaks.
2021-05-02T16:09:33Z _death: teach minion on (tell (? recipient) that (?? note)) do (add-memo recipient note)
2021-05-02T16:10:02Z nij: _death: it'd be insanely nice if we can teach minion like this
2021-05-02T16:10:14Z nij: can someone hack minion for it to follow instructions like this :)?
2021-05-02T16:10:22Z _death: you can :)
2021-05-02T16:10:29Z _death: (hack minion to do that)
2021-05-02T16:10:55Z nij: and minion should be able to dump its internal state to a paste bin easily
2021-05-02T16:11:02Z nij: so all people know who have taught it what
2021-05-02T16:12:51Z nij: ebrasca: if it's enough stumpwm-like, you should be able to add a config file for it to read at startup
2021-05-02T16:13:06Z nij: the config file is yet a file with lisp forms to be evaluated
2021-05-02T16:13:18Z nij: so if you can write in CL, you can hack it.
2021-05-02T16:13:57Z phoe: nij: file a PR at https://github.com/stassats/lisp-bots/
2021-05-02T16:14:40Z nij: ebrasca: here's a config example for stumpwm that I learned a lot from. Its starting point is init.lisp : https://github.com/alezost/stumpwm-config/blob/master/init.lisp
2021-05-02T16:14:51Z phoe: n
2021-05-02T16:14:53Z phoe: (oops)
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2021-05-02T16:15:31Z ebrasca: nij: I have a stumpwm config file.
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2021-05-02T16:15:58Z nij: I'm not sure however how much stumpwm differs from mahogany.
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2021-05-02T16:16:36Z nij: ebrasca: does it work for your stumpwm?
2021-05-02T16:17:04Z ebrasca: nij: I am usin it rigth now.
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2021-05-02T16:17:41Z ebrasca: My stumpwm don't give me any error at start but somethimes it dies.
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2021-05-02T16:18:05Z nij: Do you use both floating and tiling groups?
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2021-05-02T16:18:32Z ebrasca: Only tilisg.
2021-05-02T16:18:48Z ebrasca: Only tiling.
2021-05-02T16:19:08Z nij: I never understand the logic behind tiling..
2021-05-02T16:19:22Z nij: ANyway.. i cannot find a manual for mahogany.. do you have a copy?
2021-05-02T16:19:26Z ebrasca: Weel you start a app and it is full screen
2021-05-02T16:19:32Z ebrasca: or half of it
2021-05-02T16:19:38Z ebrasca: and it is all I need
2021-05-02T16:21:08Z nij: Yeah I mean sometimes it breaks and I never found why.
2021-05-02T16:21:22Z nij: Have been using the floating groups and so far so good.
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2021-05-02T16:33:30Z engblom: Is there something as simple as (dotimes (i 4) ... ), but allowing you to specify the starting point?
2021-05-02T16:33:53Z jeosol: you don't want loop?
2021-05-02T16:34:19Z Bike: there is not a standard macro like dotimes that lets you specify a starting point. you can use addition or loop though.
2021-05-02T16:34:47Z jeosol: or some macro that's based on do
2021-05-02T16:34:54Z jeosol: "do"
2021-05-02T16:35:29Z engblom: I will use loop then
2021-05-02T16:35:36Z nij: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/loop-for-black-belts.html engblom search "from" in this page
2021-05-02T16:35:49Z nij: oh.. loop isn't simple enough?
2021-05-02T16:35:59Z jeosol: engblom: I second that, it will get the job done quickly
2021-05-02T16:36:47Z nij: I wonder if (dotimes (i 4) (setf i (+ i 2)) ...) works? (Untested)
2021-05-02T16:36:55Z Bike: don't do that
2021-05-02T16:36:59Z nij: Why not?!
2021-05-02T16:38:23Z Bike: you shouldn't modify an iteration variable. also, even if it did work, it might only loop twice - i = 0, then i = 3, then i = 5 so it quits
2021-05-02T16:38:50Z nij: Indeed: (dotimes (i 6) (setf i (+ i 3)) (format t "~a" i)) ;; => 37
2021-05-02T16:39:10Z Bike: that is also implementation dependent
2021-05-02T16:39:34Z Bike: since dotimes might just establish a new binding each iteration
2021-05-02T16:39:36Z nij: However, this works: (dotimes (i 6) (let (( i (+ i 3) )) (format t "~a" i))) ;; => 345678
2021-05-02T16:39:36Z _death: you can use LET instead
2021-05-02T16:39:46Z Bike: yes, just use let
2021-05-02T16:39:56Z nij: let is also magic
2021-05-02T16:39:59Z nij: I like LET!
2021-05-02T16:43:01Z nij: Suppose I'm to hack minion as a toy, for a random user to let it evaluate random codes.. what's a good strategy to blacklist malicious codes?
2021-05-02T16:43:27Z nij: It seems like whitelisting is always easier than blacklisting..
2021-05-02T16:45:37Z pjb: engblom: you can use list* to push both at the same time: (list* :new-key 'new-val plist)
2021-05-02T16:45:38Z _death: whitelist is a better solution.. so you can have a package where only allowed symbols are present
2021-05-02T16:45:50Z pjb: engblom: well: (setf plist (list* :new-key 'new-val plist))
2021-05-02T16:46:23Z pjb: engblom: of course, list* can be used for any number of new elements.
2021-05-02T16:47:43Z nij: _death: but it's less flexible :-(
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2021-05-02T16:48:12Z nij: Btw, is there a de facto way to help access to places deeply nested? Something like
2021-05-02T16:48:16Z pjb: vms14: there are always exceptions and circumstances.  If the set of fields is fixed, it may be better to use structures than plists.  If the set of keys is variable and you want to accept keys not known at compilation-time, then plists are better.
2021-05-02T16:48:54Z nij: (setf (get-nested nij (pants pocket wallet note)) "Do this, do that!")
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2021-05-02T16:49:39Z pjb: nij: tiling let's you prevent a certain class of cockpit error: the case where something is displayed in a window, but you cannot see it because that window is hidden behind another window.
2021-05-02T16:50:01Z pjb: nij: therefore tiling is important on control panel applications where you want to be sure that the information is visible to the operator.
2021-05-02T16:50:16Z _death: nij: anyway, check out cl-eval-bot
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2021-05-02T16:51:48Z semz: Is there a way to get access to an internal function (generally but in CCL is fine too) as an object? DISASSEMBLE will only give me the outer function's code and pulling it out would be rather annoying.
2021-05-02T16:52:00Z pjb: nij: it's simply not specified how and when the loop variables are bound. Even (let ((fs '())) (dotimes (i 6) (push (lambda () i) fs)) (mapcar (function funcall) fs)) is not conforming.  So mutating the variable i is even conforming.
2021-05-02T16:55:12Z pjb: Instead, you can write either:  (let ((fs '())) (let (k) (dotimes (i 6) (setf k i) (push (lambda () k) fs)) (mapcar (function funcall) fs))) #| --> (5 5 5 5 5 5) |#
2021-05-02T16:55:12Z pjb: or:  (let ((fs '())) (dotimes (i 6) (let ((k i)) (push (lambda () k) fs))) (mapcar (function funcall) fs)) #| --> (5 4 3 2 1 0) |#
2021-05-02T16:55:17Z pjb: to receive conforming results.
2021-05-02T16:56:52Z pjb: and of course, if you want to modify your loop variable: (loop with i = 0 while (< i 10) collect i do (incf i (1+ (random 3)))) #| --> (0 3 5 6 8) |#
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2021-05-02T17:09:15Z nij: got it :)
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2021-05-02T17:25:19Z theothornhill: beach: So Kent Pitman came back to me, with an enthusiastic reply.  Nice!  He says that the dpANS is the way to go, and a suit is unlikely.  He'd _not_ recommend making a CLHS 2.0, and would rather focus on creating a "WikiSpec" starting from the dpANS, allowing the spec to be alive, without requiring to go through a committee for every typo, not to mention real bigger changes
2021-05-02T17:25:19Z minion: theothornhill, memo from nij: I've read the log and am glad to know if there's any news back from the people you mail.
2021-05-02T17:26:38Z phoe: :D
2021-05-02T17:27:15Z theothornhill: nij: I think this sounds smart. We could then start by displaying the spec as it is, then work incrementally on creating a live, documented and annotated spec that caters to more modern needs
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2021-05-02T17:30:18Z theothornhill: (If we allow a feature to disable every annotation we'd avoid the need to go through some uncoordinated committee, since the real, trusted spec is only one click away)
2021-05-02T17:31:42Z theothornhill: His reply is way too long to post here, so I'll ask him if I could publish some or all of it for posterity.
2021-05-02T17:33:19Z phoe: this is like the UltraSpec except done correctly this time
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2021-05-02T17:35:45Z theothornhill: phoe: I say we try.  I'll start work on htmlizing the spec this evening.  I also have done some initial work on making the transition from dpANS to something else reproducible, so we don't have to worry about keeping things verbatim, which would be super important as a first step should this work
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2021-05-02T17:36:28Z vms14: can minion save a memo for itself?
2021-05-02T17:36:59Z vms14: minion: memo for minion: :O
2021-05-02T17:37:00Z minion: Buzz off.
2021-05-02T17:37:02Z vms14: meh
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2021-05-02T17:45:12Z phoe: theothornhill: any method that turns dpANS into something lispy is going to work
2021-05-02T17:45:26Z phoe: I was ogling AsTeR as a TeX parser written in Lisp - I told you about that, right?
2021-05-02T17:45:41Z phoe: https://github.com/tvraman/aster-math/
2021-05-02T17:46:40Z theothornhill: phoe: no, but you did now :) I'll look into that
2021-05-02T17:47:19Z phoe: OK
2021-05-02T17:47:26Z phoe: basically, AsTeR solves a different problem
2021-05-02T17:47:43Z phoe: tvraman is not capable of seeing, so he wanted a way to translate TeX papers into audio
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2021-05-02T17:48:03Z theothornhill: wild
2021-05-02T17:48:05Z phoe: and he did that by parsing TeX into Lisp and then serializing Lisp objects into commands sent to a TTS device
2021-05-02T17:48:16Z phoe: I think we'd be interested in that first part
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2021-05-02T17:48:43Z phoe: it seems that this code mostly loads and works even on modern lisp implementations, though it needs to get some overall polishing
2021-05-02T17:49:48Z theothornhill: Do you know if he's open to PRs and maintaining AsTeR?
2021-05-02T17:50:03Z theothornhill: In getting it into quicklisp etc
2021-05-02T17:50:13Z phoe: yes
2021-05-02T17:50:18Z phoe: I mailed him and he's open to that
2021-05-02T17:50:37Z theothornhill: Nice
2021-05-02T17:50:48Z phoe: there is a C module in there called "lex" that should be rewritten in Lisp
2021-05-02T17:51:09Z phoe: oh wait, not a C module - it's a C program, a lexer
2021-05-02T17:51:54Z theothornhill: Pitman also told me to be sure to organize such an effort with other people, to make sure we don't double the work, considering it's a small community
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2021-05-02T18:34:44Z phoe: yes
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2021-05-02T18:47:09Z engblom: I did my first try with a macro, but failed: I tried to put both the macro and some kind of explanation of what I want here: https://pastebin.com/snBdwRdE
2021-05-02T18:48:03Z flip214: engblom: first thing, you'll want to learn backquote.
2021-05-02T18:48:59Z theothornhill: engblom: ^ this
2021-05-02T18:49:22Z phoe: engblom: second thing, what do you want the resulting, macroexpanded code to look like?
2021-05-02T18:49:25Z flip214: second, there are some things missing... some declarations (what is set-on-change?), and the problem you have.
2021-05-02T18:49:39Z flip214: do you get an error, a warning, does it do something unexpected, ...?
2021-05-02T18:50:39Z engblom: It compiles, but when I run it I end up in debugger with:
2021-05-02T18:50:44Z engblom: There is no applicable method for the generic function                                                                                             #<STANDARD-GENERIC-FUNCTION CLOG:VALUE (3)>
2021-05-02T18:50:49Z engblom: when called with arguments                                                                                                                         (NIL).
2021-05-02T18:51:34Z engblom: (set-on-change ...) is a function from clog library and service-type is a clog object
2021-05-02T18:52:12Z engblom: https://rabbibotton.github.io/clog/clog-manual.html#x-28CLOG-3ASET-ON-CHANGE-20GENERIC-FUNCTION-29
2021-05-02T18:55:25Z engblom: Is it OK that set-service-paramaters is a local function made with label?
2021-05-02T18:55:48Z _death: engblom: I suggest to replace "defmacro" with "defun" and try to get (custom-set 'set-service-parameters 'p) to result in the form you want
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2021-05-02T18:58:29Z _death: oh, I missed the problem description.. the issue you may have is one discussed today in this channel..
2021-05-02T19:00:46Z _death: where a binding is changed in a loop.. perhaps an expansion like (let ((p-var p)) (lambda (obj) (declare (ignore obj)) (set-service-parameters p-var))) will work (note that I use "p-var" but in your macro you should generate a symbol each time, say using GENSYM)
2021-05-02T19:01:11Z engblom: _death: So I have a loop that creates a lot of clog objects, and each clog object needs its own function that should be run when they are changed. In this case the only difference that should be in the function is the argument to set-service-parameters. The p binding is changed in the loop, so I tried to use a macro to generate the function.
2021-05-02T19:03:09Z _death: well, you can just use a function to generate the function.. you'll pass #'set-service-parameters to it instead
2021-05-02T19:04:22Z engblom: _death: I do not understand how. The problem is that the clog obj will always be passed to whatever I give (set-on-change ...)
2021-05-02T19:05:12Z _death: engblom: do you understand (defun foo (x) (lambda (y) (+ x y))) ?
2021-05-02T19:06:23Z engblom: _death: Yes, I think so
2021-05-02T19:06:46Z _death: engblom: good, so what would be the analogous form in your case?
2021-05-02T19:08:35Z engblom: I do not what you mean with "analogous form"
2021-05-02T19:08:38Z _death: you need a function that takes f and x, and returns a function that takes an obj (and ignores it) and calls f with x
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2021-05-02T19:11:37Z _death: so that for example (funcall (custom-set #'- 123) 42) => -123
2021-05-02T19:13:49Z engblom: _death: I got it to work now!
2021-05-02T19:13:55Z engblom: _death: Thank you very much!
2021-05-02T19:14:27Z _death: so you write that function?
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2021-05-02T19:14:45Z _death: *wrote
2021-05-02T19:16:35Z engblom: _death: Yes, I wrote the function
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2021-05-02T19:18:21Z kiwichap: hello
2021-05-02T19:19:09Z _death: so now you can change the name to a more general name, say ALWAYS and have it take &rest parameters instead of just (f x) or (obj).. or you could call it say ALWAYS-FN and have an ALWAYS macro that expands to `(always-fn (function ,function-name) ,@args)
2021-05-02T19:19:56Z kiwichap: how hard is it going to be to learn lisp?
2021-05-02T19:20:18Z _death: so that you can write (always (set-service-parameters p)) ;; inner parentheses are stylistic
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2021-05-02T19:23:04Z kiwichap: basically I want to write a website that can access a database
2021-05-02T19:23:26Z kiwichap: so like there's certain parts involved like authentication, session, different users
2021-05-02T19:24:02Z kiwichap: is lisp the right language? first off or I should be using something else?
2021-05-02T19:25:42Z theothornhill: kiwichap: lisp can do that for sure.  I guess it depends on what you'd be interested in focusing on.  If just getting that app up and running, I'm sure some python, ruby og js frameworks will be quicker
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2021-05-02T19:26:34Z kiwichap: I never did any of them and haven't done all the much programming but I somehow got a degree in it if that makes sense
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2021-05-02T19:26:55Z Xach: Yeah, there are other environments where tasks like that are a matter of filling in some blanks. Common Lisp isn't one of them, mostly.
2021-05-02T19:27:15Z kiwichap: I don't even know where to start really
2021-05-02T19:28:06Z kiwichap: I did a little bit of Java in school , so much complications there, then I did some php on my own, I did my first cgi scripts and a hello world or 2 in lisp
2021-05-02T19:28:25Z kiwichap: and I have c++ school experience
2021-05-02T19:28:29Z Shinmera: here's a start then: https://github.com/Shirakumo/radiance-tutorial/blob/master/Part%200.md
2021-05-02T19:28:54Z theothornhill: If you are motivated, lisp is super fun though
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2021-05-02T19:29:24Z kiwichap: thanks
2021-05-02T19:30:25Z kiwichap: I'll give it a go my friend's father used to program lisp when he worked for Bell
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2021-05-02T19:55:29Z rumbler31: phoe:  I'm looking at running your ansi-tests branch of ccl.  I'd like to reproduce your results.  How did you go about building that branch?
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2021-05-02T19:56:43Z phoe: rumbler31: that is a very bad time to ask this question
2021-05-02T19:57:08Z phoe: I will be able to help you build that on Thursday or later - right now I'm 100% in ELS-local-chairing mindset
2021-05-02T19:57:18Z phoe: please leave an issue on the repo and I will try to come back to you
2021-05-02T19:57:31Z rumbler31: oh right that's coming up
2021-05-02T19:57:41Z phoe: if I don't, please mercilessly remind me that I allowed you to mercilessly remind me
2021-05-02T19:57:47Z rumbler31: lol will do
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2021-05-02T20:00:57Z jcowan: ABCL is partly written in Java
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2021-05-02T20:02:43Z phoe: rumbler31: "that's coming up" is a pretty neutral way to put it
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2021-05-02T20:03:23Z rumbler31: yea I bet.  I'm disappointed because I was looking forward to watching it live, but this is the week I have to go into the office and I won't be able to watch
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2021-05-02T20:08:35Z jcowan: 3000 java files (540 KLOC), 700 lisp files (290 KLOC)
2021-05-02T20:08:40Z jcowan: these are raw counts
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2021-05-02T20:10:54Z _death: how much of it is generated?
2021-05-02T20:14:46Z _death: I asked because I never looked at abcl.. but I just cloned it and cloc gives about 60kloc in each language
2021-05-02T20:15:29Z _death: that includes asdf
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2021-05-02T20:49:11Z ebrasca: Can you upload files to hunchentoot?
2021-05-02T20:49:31Z ebrasca: Like images
2021-05-02T20:50:24Z LispSporks: ebrasca Yes, it's described in the docs
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2021-05-02T20:52:31Z ebrasca: LispSporks: Do you know some example?
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2021-05-02T20:58:53Z LispSporks: ebrasca I found this after a brief googling B982PUQFCjq@gqz4
2021-05-02T20:59:10Z LispSporks: https://blog.uxul.de/e?e=mt-442 oops
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2021-05-02T21:00:26Z ebrasca: I have see it, it does not show how to get the file data.
2021-05-02T21:00:35Z ebrasca: I get this (#P"/tmp/hunchentoot/hunchentoot-6" "tmp.html" "text/html")
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2021-05-02T21:03:10Z LispSporks: Yeah you can take the CAR of that to get the file name
2021-05-02T21:04:13Z ebrasca: I get it , hunchentoot did save the file to the first place.
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2021-05-02T21:08:23Z ebrasca: couldn't rename a to b Invalid cross-device link
2021-05-02T21:09:19Z LispSporks: Probably means where it saved it and where you tried to rename it too, are on different filesystems. Try a file copy instead.
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2021-05-02T21:24:41Z ebrasca: It does work , thanks!
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2021-05-02T21:42:06Z engblom: How would you loop over a plist where you want each pair?
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2021-05-02T21:44:45Z Bike: (loop for (key val) on plist by #'cddr ...)
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2021-05-02T21:46:00Z engblom: Bike: Thanks!
2021-05-02T21:47:15Z phoe: sleep time for me
2021-05-02T21:47:21Z phoe: see you tomorrow at the symposium
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2021-05-02T21:52:03Z engblom: phoe: Good night!
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2021-05-02T21:59:51Z pjb: Does anybody know how to use Nathan Froyd's diff system?
2021-05-02T22:00:29Z pjb: There doesn't seem to be any example, and the reference doc is useless.
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2021-05-02T22:14:38Z |3b| wonders if slime's receive-if (on sbcl) should bind *break-on-signals* to NIL, since it seems to get confused if condition-wait SIGNALs a deadline, causing it to try to run a debugger-loop inside the with-mutex, which does receive-if, which gets recursive lock error in with-mutex, which runs debugger, etc
2021-05-02T22:15:32Z |3b|: or if there is some better way to handle things, or if that isn't what's happening in the first place
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2021-05-02T22:39:30Z |3b|: or alternately, if force-output on slime-output-stream shouldn't use deadlines in the first place
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2021-05-02T22:43:45Z |3b|: (let ((*break-on-signals* t)) (loop repeat 10000 do (format t "~c" (code-char (random 1000000))) (force-output))) seems to reproduce it reliably (random characters so emacs has to go digging for fonts slowing it down enough to trigger the 0.1 sec deadline)
2021-05-02T22:46:04Z |3b|: and rebinding *break-on-signals* around connection-wait seems to fix it
2021-05-02T22:46:31Z mister_m: is there a way to check for the presence of a value of a slot in an object without tripping an UNBOUND-SLOT condition? I was using (slot-value ...) when I ran into this, thinking I could test with (null ...)
2021-05-02T22:47:12Z |3b|: clhs slot-boundp
2021-05-02T22:47:12Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_slt_bo.htm
2021-05-02T22:47:47Z mister_m: thanks
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2021-05-02T23:12:45Z |3b| files https://github.com/slime/slime/issues/617 for it
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2021-05-03T00:26:20Z mister_m: using slime, is there a way to recompile a function in a manner like C-c C-c, but with `(declare (optimize debug))`? I can add that to the function and recompile as normal, but I am wondering if slime can do this for me.
2021-05-03T00:26:50Z no-defun-allowed: I think C-u C-c C-c will compile with debug optimisations.
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2021-05-03T00:27:26Z no-defun-allowed: See the documentation (i.e. when in a Lisp buffer, type C-h k C-c C-c): "With (positive) prefix argument the form is compiled with maximal debug settings (‘C-u’). With negative prefix argument it is compiled for speed (‘M--’)."
2021-05-03T00:31:24Z mister_m: thanks no-defun-allowed
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2021-05-03T00:36:30Z Xach: I didn't know about M--, that's cool
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2021-05-03T00:36:47Z Xach: (I wrote the original C-u thing long ago)
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2021-05-03T00:46:33Z mister_m: I didn't even realize the "universal argument" C-u existed
2021-05-03T00:46:41Z mister_m: cool
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2021-05-03T01:38:12Z nij: minion: memo for theothornhill: I've read the log again.. and I melted. Thanks so much :-D Let me know if I can help any.. (beware i'm just a noob)!
2021-05-03T01:38:12Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell theothornhill when he/she/it next speaks.
2021-05-03T01:38:36Z nij: minion: memo for beach: Good news from theothornhill! Seems like UltraSpec is going to come back alive :-D
2021-05-03T01:38:36Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks.
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2021-05-03T03:04:18Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-05-03T03:04:18Z minion: beach, memo from nij: Good news from theothornhill! Seems like UltraSpec is going to come back alive :-D
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2021-05-03T04:05:00Z nij: sp
2021-05-03T04:05:11Z nij: (oops)
2021-05-03T04:07:31Z nij: How is an ffi designed? In particular, if I want to call a foreign abstract object (and play with it) in lisp, what should I do? Must I write a wrapper that models the foreign object in terms of a lisp object? Are there some known cases that won't work in lisp?
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2021-05-03T04:09:11Z remby96: just need the map the calling conventions to what ever language you want right?
2021-05-03T04:11:11Z jcowan: THere are two ways to do it: write the C (or Blub) function using a specific signature that Lisp uses, or write a Lisp function that provides a C signature.  In other words, either weird C glue or weird Lisp glue.
2021-05-03T04:13:40Z nij: remby96:  what do you mean?
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2021-05-03T04:13:59Z nij: jcowan:  it's not just for C.. i'm thinking for all kinds of foreign lang.
2021-05-03T04:14:26Z moon-child: most languages that are willing to speak to other languages do so using the c abi
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2021-05-03T04:14:43Z nij: how about those that are non-willing?
2021-05-03T04:14:44Z moon-child: the primary exception being java, and there is abcl
2021-05-03T04:15:22Z White_Flame: FFIs are pretty complicated, in terms of GC walking the stack and knowing what's lisp vs C (or other), as well as needing native pointers & allocations represented in with lisp tagged values
2021-05-03T04:15:29Z moon-child: c++ abi has been implemented by non-c++ compilers twice as far as I know (d and raku).  Both implementations are incomplete.  C++ abi is huge and horrible.  That's not a road you want to go down
2021-05-03T04:15:31Z White_Flame: then there's interaction with threads, too, and all sorts of balls of wax
2021-05-03T04:15:35Z moon-child: other compiled languages tend not to have stable abis
2021-05-03T04:16:34Z nij: in summary - it's damn complicated.. don't touch it?  ;; <= correct?
2021-05-03T04:16:52Z nij: instead - learn the lang and write in terms of it.. it makes life easier?
2021-05-03T04:16:55Z remby96: moon-child any idea why not?
2021-05-03T04:17:13Z White_Flame: you asked how it's _designed_.  feel free to use them.  don't try to design them as some introductory project
2021-05-03T04:17:20Z nij: Very interesting.. I wonder why languages are so hard to translate.. even in the realm of computer science.
2021-05-03T04:17:48Z remby96: popular languages reflect industry more I think
2021-05-03T04:18:09Z White_Flame: every language has its own notion of memory allocation, how strings are structured, etc
2021-05-03T04:18:24Z moon-child: most languages' semantics are generally incommensurable
2021-05-03T04:18:32Z moon-child: appearances notwithstanding
2021-05-03T04:18:40Z White_Flame: their ABIs are tailored to the strengths of the language
2021-05-03T04:18:50Z moon-child: even languages with very similar type systems, like lua and js, you would probably run into trouble with
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2021-05-03T04:19:40Z remby96: makes me wonder how graal works now
2021-05-03T04:20:01Z White_Flame: they have a single ur-language underneath that everything compiles to, afaik
2021-05-03T04:20:18Z White_Flame: and then the various languages share compiler infrastructure
2021-05-03T04:20:47Z White_Flame: so nothing is truly foreign there
2021-05-03T04:21:03Z loli: IRs/Abstract machines are rather nice at that
2021-05-03T04:21:26Z moon-child: remby96: _compiling_ one language to another isn't difficult.  What's difficult is retaining the language-level semantics and type system as you do so in a way that makes interoperation practical
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2021-05-03T04:22:01Z remby96: ah I see
2021-05-03T04:22:18Z nij: right
2021-05-03T04:22:33Z nij: i see. thanks :)
2021-05-03T04:24:09Z White_Flame: and what's difficult is sharing a single process address space with a different language's running binary stuff
2021-05-03T04:24:26Z loli: The type theory bit shouldn't be too bad, you are taking one formal mathematical system and compiling it to a stronger or weaker one. Idris, and Agda both compile down to Haskell this way
2021-05-03T04:24:47Z loli: Haskell and other languages compile down to eventually remove their type theory, or compile it down to an IR with weaker type theory
2021-05-03T04:25:44Z White_Flame: in fact, on the symbolics lisp machines, they had a C compiler that generated lisp processor machine code and played nicely with the system (if slow)
2021-05-03T04:25:58Z nij: > moon-child: "What's difficult is retaining the language-level semantics and type system as you do so in a way that makes interoperation practical" ;; <= this!
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2021-05-03T04:27:57Z loli: there is interesting research with graded model types, where you can get a system F system out of it, so you could program in such a system and use languages with type systems in System F, or export to them in this way
2021-05-03T04:28:15Z saturn2: C programs on the lisp machine created a lisp byte-vector to function as the C program's "memory"
2021-05-03T04:28:29Z White_Flame: yep, and it didn't have a native char*
2021-05-03T04:29:30Z loli: where the C programs a subset of C on those lisp machines?
2021-05-03T04:29:44Z moon-child: loli: interesting, have a link to that?
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2021-05-03T04:30:18Z loli: moon-child: I'd have to drudge that up, but it comes out of better way to do QTT (think linear types on steroids)
2021-05-03T04:30:56Z pyc: Is it possible to do string interpolation within format using variable names, e.g. something along the lines of (format t "hello, {{name}}") ?
2021-05-03T04:32:37Z no-defun-allowed: The CL-INTERPOL library lets you do that.
2021-05-03T04:33:09Z loli: does CL-INTERPOL change the " reader macro, or does it define a custom define function?
2021-05-03T04:33:19Z no-defun-allowed: It is #?"hello, ${name}" but it's the same general concept.
2021-05-03T04:33:21Z loli: a custom format8
2021-05-03T04:33:25Z no-defun-allowed: It defines a #? reader macro.
2021-05-03T04:35:20Z pyc: thanks!
2021-05-03T04:35:33Z no-defun-allowed: I heard that they could run TeX on a Lisp machine using the C implementation, so it probably worked well enough.
2021-05-03T04:36:50Z no-defun-allowed: ...though TeX is written in literate Pascal, and a conversion program generates the C code.
2021-05-03T04:37:17Z loli: why the conversion, do more systems just run C, or is it due to performance or maintainability concerns?
2021-05-03T04:37:46Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, there are more systems with C compilers than Pascal - Lisp machines had both though.
2021-05-03T04:38:15Z loli: Is there a lot of literature on the Lisp machine, it seems a lot of that knowledge was lost with time
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2021-05-03T04:47:20Z remby96: yeah I think pretty much everything supports the cabi
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2021-05-03T05:06:16Z beach: loli: I think it is fairly well documented.
2021-05-03T05:08:37Z phoe: good morning
2021-05-03T05:08:51Z beach: Hello phoe.
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2021-05-03T05:10:24Z phoe: hey hi
2021-05-03T05:10:30Z White_Flame: as far as symbolics goes, there's a lot of scans of both manuals & internal documents that are online now
2021-05-03T05:11:09Z White_Flame: there's no complete description of everything from the ground up, though, especially in terms of making a bootable image from scratch
2021-05-03T05:11:39Z White_Flame: not sure about LMI's stuff or others
2021-05-03T05:12:46Z loli: I guess i haven't been looking too hard then. I've found image literature lacking in general. Factor and MIT Scheme have some bits, but not much besides that
2021-05-03T05:13:04Z remby96: there was some website that had a lot ... I had to use it to get some info on the ibm 7094
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2021-05-03T05:14:16Z White_Flame: probably bitsavers: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/
2021-05-03T05:16:26Z remby96: ah it was this one http://www.frobenius.com/index.htm
2021-05-03T05:17:02Z remby96: univac lisp source here http://www.frobenius.com/source.htm
2021-05-03T05:18:55Z remby96: I used bitsavers to get the manual
2021-05-03T05:23:06Z loli: thanks remby96 and White_Flame
2021-05-03T05:23:14Z remby96: np
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2021-05-03T06:26:45Z Shinmera: ELS is starting in half an hour.
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2021-05-03T06:44:34Z susam: Thanks, Shinmera!
2021-05-03T06:46:08Z remby96: what is ELS?
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2021-05-03T06:50:44Z susam: remby96: European Lisp Symposium - https://european-lisp-symposium.org/2021/index.html / https://www.twitch.tv/elsconf
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2021-05-03T08:44:56Z beach: theothornhill: Got your message!  That's great news!
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2021-05-03T08:48:01Z theothornhill: beach: Great - yeah!
2021-05-03T08:48:01Z minion: theothornhill, memo from nij: I've read the log again.. and I melted. Thanks so much :-D Let me know if I can help any.. (beware i'm just a noob)!
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2021-05-03T08:52:44Z theothornhill: nij: I'm sure I'll need a lot of help down the line.  I'll try to set up some infrastructure.  My general goal would be to make it as collaborative as possible, since making a single source of truth shouldn't happen again.
2021-05-03T08:53:22Z beach: Beware of giving just anyone arbitrary access though.
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2021-05-03T09:00:11Z theothornhill: beach: yeah
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2021-05-03T09:12:18Z pyc: Is (let ((solutions nil) (metadata nil)) ...) a common coding style? Or do you prefer to write (let (solutions metadata) ...)
2021-05-03T09:12:56Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, the latter makes it look like SOLUTIONS and METADATA are not set to interesting values.
2021-05-03T09:13:57Z beach: pyc: More explicitly, the first means that you initialize those to some default values, or possibly to Boolean false.
2021-05-03T09:14:13Z beach: pyc: The second means that you intend to assign to them before you use them.
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2021-05-03T09:14:55Z pyc: thanks no-defun-allowed , beach
2021-05-03T09:15:23Z splittist: pyc: to indicate that SOLUTIONS is an initially empty list, you'd say ...((solutions '())...
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2021-05-03T09:15:45Z beach: Right.
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2021-05-03T09:41:26Z phoe: theothornhill: let's talk after the ELS
2021-05-03T09:46:57Z theothornhill: phoe: anytime
2021-05-03T09:47:03Z phoe: <3
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2021-05-03T10:12:29Z lotuseater: maybe a dumb question again, what does ELS stand for?
2021-05-03T10:12:54Z beach: European Lisp Symposium
2021-05-03T10:13:24Z no-defun-allowed: minion: what does ELS stand for?
2021-05-03T10:13:24Z minion: Epigenous Limnimeter Schlenter
2021-05-03T10:16:11Z lotuseater: ah
2021-05-03T10:16:32Z lotuseater: no-defun-allowed: did you expect that? ^^
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2021-05-03T10:16:56Z no-defun-allowed: I know minion comes up with something, but never what.
2021-05-03T10:17:29Z _death: minion: what does SBCL stand for?
2021-05-03T10:17:29Z minion: Sloppage Bepelt Common Lisp
2021-05-03T10:18:14Z no-defun-allowed: minion: what does SICL stand for?
2021-05-03T10:18:14Z minion: Soldado Interparoxysmal Common Lisp
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2021-05-03T10:21:23Z no-defun-allowed: Following a test in private messages, I think the -CL suffix → Common Lisp rule isn't random.
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2021-05-03T10:26:25Z beach: That's right.
2021-05-03T10:27:42Z beach: lotuseater: ELS is currently the only international Lisp forum.  There used to be an International Lisp Conference, it it might happen again, organized by the ALU (Association of Lisp Users).  But I think the ALU is having problems recruiting (unpaid) staff.
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2021-05-03T10:29:33Z beach: lotuseater: It doesn't matter much if there is one or two, nor what they are called.  The only potentially problematic thing about the current situation is that ELS is always held in Europe, when it is a physical gathering.  So people from other parts of the world are always the ones who have to travel far.
2021-05-03T10:30:23Z beach: lotuseater: But ELS (when it is in a physical place) has regular participants from Japan, USA, etc.
2021-05-03T10:31:54Z beach now suspects this was way more information than what lotuseater has in mind.
2021-05-03T10:32:59Z lotuseater: no thank you :)
2021-05-03T10:32:59Z nij: Ah ELS is happening.. these two days are the two most busiest in this semester.. :-( it will be uploaded later?
2021-05-03T10:33:07Z phoe: yes
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2021-05-03T10:33:38Z lotuseater: and yes, i downloaded some pdfs from the last years and last year saw your some older talk about LOOP beach
2021-05-03T10:33:57Z beach: I guess a conference held in North America would have most participants take a flight, whereas in Europe, there are these things known as "trains", so it is probably better for the environment to hold conferences in Europe.
2021-05-03T10:34:29Z beach: lotuseater: Oh, OK.  That one was a few years back. :)
2021-05-03T10:35:25Z nij: Oh there are lots of historical data available :D! I will have to binge them soon.
2021-05-03T10:35:52Z nij: beach: probably the best for environment if it's held on twitch
2021-05-03T10:36:34Z beach: That's not the only consideration though.
2021-05-03T10:36:40Z nij: By the way.. why do the keynote talks seem unrelated to lisp to me? i'm too noobie?
2021-05-03T10:37:20Z phoe: nij: the first keynote was actually about Lisp in practice!
2021-05-03T10:37:43Z phoe: live and interactive programming using Lisp, interacting with music generators or video presentations or robots
2021-05-03T10:39:13Z nij: mmmhm that one seems closer to lisp, at least "symbolic" is used in the topic
2021-05-03T10:39:13Z lotuseater: or debugging satellites from far away? :D
2021-05-03T10:39:16Z nij: but the others..?
2021-05-03T10:39:39Z nij: Where can I find the past videos?
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2021-05-03T10:41:49Z phoe: like from previous year?
2021-05-03T10:41:53Z phoe: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC55S8D_44ge2cV10aQmxNVQ/videos
2021-05-03T10:45:52Z nij: Yeah, I'm aware of this. But it doesn't have all of them.
2021-05-03T10:46:07Z nij: By the way, I've watched first-class global env.. how does that go?
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2021-05-03T10:47:19Z jackdaniel: nij: https://github.com/s-expressionists/Clostrum
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2021-05-03T10:50:36Z nij: It's done?
2021-05-03T10:51:40Z nij: Btw, is there a way to get the place of a nested object? Something like
2021-05-03T10:51:49Z jmercouris: nij: something like...?
2021-05-03T10:52:00Z jmercouris: I'm here on the edge of my seat
2021-05-03T10:52:08Z nij: (setf (get-nested (nij pants pocket wallet note content)) "Do this do that")
2021-05-03T10:52:20Z phoe: sounds like a use case for alexandria:compose
2021-05-03T10:52:24Z nij: jmercouris: it took me time to balance the parens..
2021-05-03T10:52:32Z jackdaniel: you may need to define a setf expander for that
2021-05-03T10:52:37Z nij: phoe: oh? How do you d othat!?
2021-05-03T10:52:39Z jmercouris: defmethod setf
2021-05-03T10:52:43Z no-defun-allowed: I wonder if (setf (arbitrary-arrows-library:-> nij pants pocket wallet note content) "Do this do that") works.
2021-05-03T10:52:48Z nij: jackdaniel:  i dunno maybe some macro suffices.
2021-05-03T10:52:50Z phoe: it should work!
2021-05-03T10:53:14Z phoe: no-defun-allowed: binding-arrows should work, I've paid attention to define setf expanders that should work
2021-05-03T10:53:15Z nij: phoe:  how?!?!
2021-05-03T10:53:20Z lotuseater: when I updated my quicklisp I saw now there is also ALEXANDRIA-2 o.O
2021-05-03T10:53:27Z jmercouris: WHAT? another Alexandria?
2021-05-03T10:53:29Z jmercouris: This cannot be
2021-05-03T10:53:36Z jmercouris: What is the remote for this?
2021-05-03T10:53:43Z jackdaniel: it is the same alexandria
2021-05-03T10:53:44Z phoe: alexandria-2 is defined by alexandria
2021-05-03T10:53:48Z jackdaniel: but it has another package
2021-05-03T10:53:50Z jmercouris: an extension?
2021-05-03T10:53:54Z lotuseater: don't know, but seems to have the same set of symbols
2021-05-03T10:53:55Z phoe: just for new symbols that cannot be added to the old alexandria package
2021-05-03T10:53:57Z jackdaniel: to not break existing libraries by i.e adding a new symbol
2021-05-03T10:54:08Z jmercouris: very conservative.
2021-05-03T10:54:12Z lotuseater: ah :)
2021-05-03T10:54:17Z jmercouris: what kinds of symbols cannot be added?
2021-05-03T10:54:21Z phoe: any
2021-05-03T10:54:23Z jmercouris: are there people :USEing Alexandria or something?
2021-05-03T10:54:27Z phoe: yes
2021-05-03T10:54:28Z phoe: tons of them
2021-05-03T10:54:31Z jmercouris: Ay yai yai!
2021-05-03T10:54:48Z jmercouris: Dangerous!
2021-05-03T10:54:50Z lotuseater: hm i thought :IMPORT-FROM is better
2021-05-03T10:54:57Z jmercouris: It definitely is
2021-05-03T10:55:07Z jmercouris: you should only :USE internal packages in my opinion
2021-05-03T10:55:29Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, arrows work.
2021-05-03T10:55:37Z nij: no-defun-allowed: hmm your method works? To get the content of note, we need (getf note 'content)?
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2021-05-03T10:55:49Z no-defun-allowed: Some parts elided: (setf (arrows:-> *hayley* pocket note) "Test this code") *hayley* ⇒ #S(PERSON :POCKET #S(PAPER :NOTE "Test this code"))
2021-05-03T10:55:55Z no-defun-allowed: GETF?
2021-05-03T10:55:58Z nij: So a level above is (getf (getf pocket 'note) 'content')
2021-05-03T10:56:01Z jackdaniel: lotuseater: adding a nickname for the package and not importing anything is even better
2021-05-03T10:56:11Z jackdaniel: i.e (a:ensure-list …) seems to be concise
2021-05-03T10:56:14Z jmercouris: makes refactoring easier
2021-05-03T10:56:16Z _death: nij: there are libraries for that, like "access".. or you could just write your own.. but I think this pointer chasing is not a good sign.. check out Law of Demeter
2021-05-03T10:56:19Z no-defun-allowed: The elided part was precisely (defstruct (person (:conc-name "")) pocket) (defstruct (paper (:conc-name "")) note) (defvar *hayley* (make-person :pocket (make-paper :note "")))
2021-05-03T10:56:21Z jmercouris: I agree with Mr. Kochmanski
2021-05-03T10:56:45Z no-defun-allowed: You're set if the accessors are actual functions, as in the arrow example.
2021-05-03T10:56:47Z jackdaniel: you got the spelling wrong
2021-05-03T10:57:07Z nij: _death:  EXXACTLY!
2021-05-03T10:57:14Z nij: the thing i want, thanks :D
2021-05-03T10:57:26Z jmercouris: I agree with Mr. Kochmański
2021-05-03T10:57:27Z nij: =>(setf (accesses place '(:a :type :alist) '(2 :type array) '(:b :type 'hash-table)) 3)
2021-05-03T10:57:31Z nij: https://github.com/AccelerationNet/access
2021-05-03T10:57:32Z no-defun-allowed slow claps
2021-05-03T10:57:46Z lotuseater: ok jackdaniel, I'll try to remember :)
2021-05-03T10:57:51Z jmercouris: I wonder if you have German heritage
2021-05-03T10:58:02Z jmercouris: now that I am thinking about it your last name looks like "Kochman", which is German
2021-05-03T10:58:13Z jmercouris: you just added "ski" to it at some time and Polishified it
2021-05-03T10:58:26Z jackdaniel: uhm
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2021-05-03T10:59:48Z lotuseater: i find that feature in the DrRacket IDE useful, it points to where a symbol comes from
2021-05-03T11:00:02Z nij: I wonder how access is implemented in principle. It doesn't use much macro.. but it doesn't seem to hack setf-expander either
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2021-05-03T11:01:01Z lotuseater: so the nicknames for other used libs goes to the .asd file?
2021-05-03T11:01:09Z phoe: nope
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2021-05-03T11:01:13Z phoe: nicknames go into package definition
2021-05-03T11:01:17Z phoe: both global and local
2021-05-03T11:01:31Z lotuseater: yeah for the package itself
2021-05-03T11:01:38Z lotuseater: so also for other used ones?
2021-05-03T11:01:48Z phoe: what do you mean, other used ones?
2021-05-03T11:02:03Z lotuseater: makes sense, better interaction without having to build the entire system
2021-05-03T11:02:23Z lotuseater: hm when i want to use ALEXANDRIA with the nickname A
2021-05-03T11:03:51Z nij: ?
2021-05-03T11:04:28Z nij: lotuseater: https://gist.github.com/phoe/2b63f33a2a4727a437403eceb7a6b4a3 this could b helpful
2021-05-03T11:05:02Z lotuseater: haha "this is a rant" :D
2021-05-03T11:06:18Z nij: phoe in your example, it doesn't make sense to call golden-utils:a:alist-get, right?
2021-05-03T11:06:19Z lotuseater: ah with local-nicknames
2021-05-03T11:06:34Z nij: And it wouldn't make sense to make it make sense?
2021-05-03T11:07:02Z nij: I wonder why CL doesn't support nested name space.. something like a:b:c:d:alist-get
2021-05-03T11:07:16Z no-defun-allowed: Crikey, even the README for ACCESS shows off bad programming style, butchering the values of unexported symbols and slots.
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2021-05-03T11:09:43Z no-defun-allowed: "It should however allow you to prototype more rapidly and change the backing data stores without having to change their access (ie I can switch from a plist to an alist and everything will continue to work)"
2021-05-03T11:09:47Z no-defun-allowed: Let me tell you about DEFUN...
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2021-05-03T11:10:31Z nij: uh..
2021-05-03T11:10:58Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, it is allowed this time.
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2021-05-03T11:16:25Z _death: there are libraries in other languages that do similar things, like lens (haskell) or specter (clojure).. but again, I think it's suspect
2021-05-03T11:17:25Z pyc: Is there no standard library function to do what (getf *map* (intern (string-upcase key) :keyword))) does, i.e. given a key as a string, look that up in plist and return its value?
2021-05-03T11:17:48Z pyc: that makes me think if I am misusing plist. perhaps plist is not meant for lookups where my lookup key is a string?
2021-05-03T11:20:39Z _death: pyc: interning should usually not be done willy-nilly.. sometimes a hash table mapping strings to whatever will do
2021-05-03T11:22:02Z pyc: My *map* is a quoted plist that has configuration data. It plays the role of what JSON or YAML might play in another language. Is it possible to create a hash as a literal in CL? With plist I have the advantage that I can create it as a single literal (quoted plist, e.g., '((:name "harry" :age 20) (:name "sally" :age 21) ...)
2021-05-03T11:23:23Z _death: pyc: for a single plist, there's alexandria:plist-hash-table.. you can always write a small function to translate from a form with nice syntax to whatever representation
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2021-05-03T11:24:26Z nij: so.. is access (cl) bad style? it's hard for newb to tell us cl stuff are usually under documented
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2021-05-03T11:25:35Z pyc: _death: thanks. let  me revisit Practical Common Lisp. I think it has an example of what I am trying to do in its 2nd chapter (a simple database). The author did it without using any external lib, so it may have something helpful for my situation.
2021-05-03T11:26:24Z _death: pyc: sure, you can easily write plist-hash-table.. I just gave a reference so you can look it up
2021-05-03T11:26:45Z pyc: okay, let me read alexandria code too
2021-05-03T11:27:06Z no-defun-allowed: Very much so - if you want to get at or set some value in an object, then you should define an accessor function. That makes it actually possible to replace the representation, and to read e.g. (pocket nij) instead of (getf nij 'pocket).
2021-05-03T11:27:42Z no-defun-allowed: And then POCKET can signal an error if the input is malformed, whereas (getf '() 'pocket) would return NIL and the error would be blamed on another function.
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2021-05-03T11:35:16Z pyc: _death: Do you have an opinion on this way of solving the problem: (defvar *map* '(:a "apple" :b "ball")) (getf *map* (find-symbol (string-upcase "a") "KEYWORD")) ?
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2021-05-03T11:38:09Z _death: pyc: when I need to translate from "external" strings to a fixed set of keywords, I don't use something as general as find-symbol
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2021-05-03T12:13:33Z engblom: I have a long string with line-feed (so actually several lines of text). Now I need to find the first word on the line containing a string I searching for. Are there any ready functions I can use for this?
2021-05-03T12:15:02Z engblom: So what I basically would use |grep and |cut in shell for.
2021-05-03T12:15:03Z flip214: engblom: there are string-trim functions to remove whitespace. If you like regular expressions, there's a library CL-PPCRE.
2021-05-03T12:34:56Z beach: engblom: I would probably start by splitting the string using SPLIT-SEQUENCE (library).  Then I would use SEARCH to determine whether the substring is present.  Finally, I would use SUBSEQ to extract the string you want.
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2021-05-03T12:46:57Z pjb: engblom: yes: (let* ((pos (search target text)) (bol (position #\linefeed text :end pos :from-end t))) (subseq text bol (position-if-not (function alpha-char-p) text :start bol)))
2021-05-03T12:47:29Z beach: Nice!
2021-05-03T12:49:16Z engblom: I am trying to use (string-trim '(#\Space #\Tab #\Newline) " ... a string with extra spaces and line feeds ...") but for some reason it does not trim anything.
2021-05-03T12:49:27Z pjb: Oops, I missed: (1+ bol) for the :start.
2021-05-03T12:49:36Z engblom: pjb: Thanks, I will try it
2021-05-03T12:49:39Z pjb: there: https://termbin.com/xqpac
2021-05-03T12:51:49Z pjb: engblom: note: there are two ASCII control codes: Carriage Return CR = 13, and Line Feed LF = 10.  They are used to indicate new lines: CR alone on Macintosh, CR LF on MS-DOS and MS-Windows, LF alone on unix systems.   Common Lisp abstract this away, by defining a #\newline character that is normally used to separate lines.
2021-05-03T12:52:44Z pjb: engblom: now, it is possible that a given implementation uses (eql #\newline #\return) or (eq #\newline #\linefeed)  (or some other characters, for example, in ISO-8859-1 there's a NEL control code, and in unicode there are several code points that can be used.
2021-05-03T12:52:59Z pjb: engblom: so you said linefeed, so I used ~C to insert a line feed in the string.
2021-05-03T12:53:36Z pjb: engblom: but you probably meant a newline, and then ~% could be used with format or a literal new line could be inserted in a multi-line string literal.
2021-05-03T12:54:31Z pjb: engblom: this is why it is important to have a precise terminology, that you can acquire by reading the Hyperspec. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/13_ag.htm
2021-05-03T12:54:42Z pjb: engblom: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/13_ah.htm
2021-05-03T12:58:02Z pjb: engblom: note that only #\space,  and #\newline are standard character names.  The other non-graphic character names #\rubout #\page #\tab #\backspace #\return #\linefeed are only semi-standard: they may not exist if the implementation doesn't have the codes representing them.  For example, in EBCDIC, some of them wouldn't exist (on the other hand, EBCDIC has a NEL code too, for a direct mapping to #\newline).
2021-05-03T12:58:37Z pjb: So my code above, using #\linefeed, is not conforming: on an implementation without #\linefeed, it would fail.
2021-05-03T12:58:58Z pjb: I should have written something like #+has-line-feed #\linefeed #-has-line-feed #\newline perhaps?
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2021-05-03T13:00:53Z pjb: engblom: see https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/blob/master/common-lisp/cesarum/character.lisp
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2021-05-03T13:04:55Z engblom: I tried it, but sadly it fails: it gives an empty string in my case. I wonder if it is because of the linefeed being strange. When I use print on the string it puts ^M where the linefeeds are.
2021-05-03T13:05:21Z engblom: Also, somtimes there is extra whitespace before the first word.
2021-05-03T13:05:29Z beach: You must be using some weird OS, like Windows or something like that.
2021-05-03T13:05:51Z engblom: beach: Nope, but this is information fetched through telnet out of some network equipment.
2021-05-03T13:05:51Z splittist: EBCDIC performs two vital functions: (a) keeping IBM's Big Iron functioning into its nth decade; and (b) giving CL language lawyers something to talk about.
2021-05-03T13:07:01Z beach: engblom: I think you really need to take the two or more suggestions and experiment with them.  It is hard to give you all the details for all the variations of the problem here on IRC.
2021-05-03T13:07:52Z engblom: Yes, I will have to experiment myself. The strange thing is that split-sequence with #\Linefeed works well.
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2021-05-03T13:10:01Z engblom: It is probably using linefeed + carrige return.
2021-05-03T13:10:37Z pjb: engblom: try the paste.
2021-05-03T13:10:47Z pjb: of course, you can s/linefeed/newline
2021-05-03T13:11:22Z pjb: engblom: like this: https://termbin.com/ibax
2021-05-03T13:12:11Z pjb: engblom: engblom it's improbable that your lisp strings contain both return and linefeed.  Usually  they're converted into a newline when reading, and converted back when writing.
2021-05-03T13:12:32Z pjb: engblom: note that ^M is not linefeed, it's carriage return!
2021-05-03T13:13:12Z pjb: If your string contains them I would suggest 1- select the right :external-format to avoid reading them. 2- removing them from your string (if you have newlines with them), or 3- replace them with newlines.
2021-05-03T13:13:48Z pjb: telnet, like most internet protocols, uses CR LF.
2021-05-03T13:14:17Z pjb: If you receive the data in binary and convert it to strings, then you need to handle the 13 10 bytes yourself and replace them with a #\newline character.
2021-05-03T13:15:55Z jcowan: White_Flame: Vacietis is a C compiler in the style of the Lisp Machine C compiler.
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2021-05-03T13:22:43Z engblom: pjb: Thank you, I will try to remove them from the string
2021-05-03T13:27:30Z pjb: engblom: https://termbin.com/pwf0
2021-05-03T13:29:21Z pjb: engblom: or just use com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.ascii:ascii-string  https://termbin.com/x9bv2
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2021-05-03T14:36:22Z lukego: hey are the lightning demo slots all booked for ELS tomorrow? if there's space I could do a couple of minutes' demo of my SLIME backend for McCLIM. This is a new project that I'm hoping to finish and ship quickly.
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2021-05-03T14:43:23Z beach: Ask in #elsconf.
2021-05-03T14:43:30Z lukego: I'll wait for a lull e.g. tonight
2021-05-03T14:43:44Z lukego: (thanks)
2021-05-03T14:47:05Z jeosol: beach: are you here?
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2021-05-03T14:47:25Z beach: I am.
2021-05-03T14:47:38Z jeosol: Good references to your work that aided implementations of CLOS related functionality in several implementations; Congrats
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2021-05-03T14:47:49Z jeosol: I think you are probably listening to the discussion now
2021-05-03T14:47:52Z jeosol: Very nice
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2021-05-03T14:48:31Z beach: Thanks.
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2021-05-03T14:51:58Z jeosol: I don't recall which particular one that Chris said, not a compiler guy
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2021-05-03T15:08:07Z brandflake11: Hello all, there is a small function I am working on that is not making sense to me. I think it stems from my understanding of how variables work inside DEFUN and LOOP. Would anyone be interested in looking at the code?: https://pastebin.com/TMNvKvc7
2021-05-03T15:08:14Z brandflake11: I can explain more too if needed
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2021-05-03T15:09:31Z beach: My addblocker doesn't allow me to view it.
2021-05-03T15:09:44Z beach: Could you use tymoon.eu/plaster instead.
2021-05-03T15:09:50Z ChoHag: Your ad blocker tells you what to do?
2021-05-03T15:09:55Z brandflake11: beach: Sure, I can do that!
2021-05-03T15:10:05Z ChoHag: Or do you just mean pastebin.com is crap? :P
2021-05-03T15:10:32Z beach: pastebin encourages me to disable my addblocker.
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2021-05-03T15:10:51Z ChoHag: (It's ad btw, they don't block maths...)
2021-05-03T15:11:06Z brandflake11: beach: Wait, tymoon.eu/plaster leads me to a blog website
2021-05-03T15:11:32Z jackdaniel: try https://plaster.tymoon.eu/edit#
2021-05-03T15:11:55Z brandflake11: jackdaniel: Thanks!
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2021-05-03T15:12:30Z jackdaniel: your indentation is wrong (i.f when you use IF operator)
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2021-05-03T15:13:41Z brandflake11: beach: Here it is on plaster: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2425#2425
2021-05-03T15:13:47Z Bike: brandflake11: i don't see any point at which you add elements to loop-list?
2021-05-03T15:13:53Z semz: fwiw you can insert raw/ into the url to get the raw text, like this https://pastebin.com/raw/TMNvKvc7
2021-05-03T15:14:17Z Bike: you just keep pushing to the 0th element of it
2021-05-03T15:14:34Z brandflake11: Bike: Oh, so push doesn't append?
2021-05-03T15:14:49Z Bike: I mean, look, you do (push loop-var (nth 0 loop-list))]
2021-05-03T15:14:54Z Bike: so you're pushing to the zeroth element of loop-list
2021-05-03T15:14:58Z Bike: you never push to loop-list itself.
2021-05-03T15:16:26Z brandflake11: Bike: When I do use push outside of a loop though, I can do that and it will append and make a list
2021-05-03T15:17:18Z Bike: It won't. try (let ((x (list nil))) (push 1 (nth 0 x)) (push 2 (nth 0 x)) x)
2021-05-03T15:17:28Z Bike: x will still be a list of one element at the end.
2021-05-03T15:17:32Z Bike: It's just that that element is itself a list.
2021-05-03T15:18:55Z brandflake11: Bike: Interesting. It works with this: (defparameter listy '(nil)) and then (push 1 (nth 0 listy))
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2021-05-03T15:19:51Z Bike: No, it doesn't. Try doing (push 2 (nth 0 *listy*)) afterwards. You again end up with a list of one element.
2021-05-03T15:20:02Z Bike: *listy* => ((2 1))
2021-05-03T15:21:05Z Bike: What you probably want to do in your code is bind loop-list to nil instead of '(nil), and do (push loop-var loop-list) instead of the nth. Why are you doing the nth?
2021-05-03T15:21:36Z brandflake11: Bike: If I run (push 2 (nth 0 *listy*)) multiple times, I do get '(2 2 2 1).
2021-05-03T15:21:51Z Bike: No, you don't. Look at the value of *listy*. Type *listy* into your repl and see what its value is.
2021-05-03T15:22:16Z Bike: PUSH returns the new list, i.e. _the element of *listy* that you pushed to_, rather than *listy* itself.
2021-05-03T15:22:17Z brandflake11: Bike: It's this: ((2 2 2 2 2 1))
2021-05-03T15:22:22Z Bike: Yes. A list of one element.
2021-05-03T15:22:33Z Bike: (length *listy*) => 1
2021-05-03T15:22:54Z brandflake11: Bike: Oh, I see
2021-05-03T15:23:22Z splittist: brandflake11: although people say you stop seeing the parens after you get used to lisp, but they're still important (: (nil) is different from () (= nil )
2021-05-03T15:23:31Z brandflake11: Bike: I didn't know you could just do (push loop-var loop-list)
2021-05-03T15:23:53Z Bike: (push x y) = (setf y (cons x y)), basically
2021-05-03T15:23:54Z splittist: brandflake11: try macroexpanding
2021-05-03T15:24:07Z Bike: so you can push to anything that is a modifiable place, and variables are places
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2021-05-03T15:26:32Z Bike: other things in your code... it still doesn't work with the fix i suggest, because the last length is not pushed; you probably want a finally clause in there
2021-05-03T15:26:44Z splittist: lukego: Soon we
2021-05-03T15:26:59Z splittist: 'll be able to run Second Climacs inside Emacs (:
2021-05-03T15:27:23Z Bike: ip-list doesn't need to print. Actually, you don't need a list at all. You can just do (loop for i across ip-address ...) and it will iterate through the characters of the string directly.
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2021-05-03T15:28:35Z Bike: maybe you just put in the print for debugging though.
2021-05-03T15:28:56Z brandflake11: Bike: Thank you for your suggestions. I will play around with these and see what I can come up with.
2021-05-03T15:29:10Z lukego: splittist: with Drei for command input editing? :-)
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2021-05-03T15:29:24Z Bike: good luck
2021-05-03T15:29:48Z brandflake11: Bike: Thanks! I am still learning lisp, so some things are still a bit fuzzy for me, so it's so great to be able to discuss why certain things happen.
2021-05-03T15:30:17Z Bike: mhm. i am happy to help. there is also a newbies channel though i don't remember the name. #clschool maybe
2021-05-03T15:30:45Z beach: Yes.
2021-05-03T15:31:01Z brandflake11: Bike: I'll check that out then. I wasn't aware of it.
2021-05-03T15:31:30Z beach: Bike: Thanks for taking care of that.  I meant to help, but then it turns out I was way too tired after a long day to be of any help.
2021-05-03T15:31:52Z Bike: no problem
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2021-05-03T15:51:11Z splittist: Anyone have a suggestion for a good but simple custom reader macro to look at? My undernumber implementation isn't quite right, and I'm not sure why.
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2021-05-03T15:52:24Z jcowan: What are undernumbers?
2021-05-03T15:52:53Z lotuseater: splittist: i learned a lot from this: https://gist.github.com/chaitanyagupta/9324402
2021-05-03T15:53:12Z splittist: #_123_456 #_xFACE_CAFE #_b1001_0110 etc.
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2021-05-03T15:53:50Z Bike: i always just read the implementation reader macros
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2021-05-03T15:54:00Z Bike: what is #_123_456 supposed to be
2021-05-03T15:54:49Z phoe: ELS2021 Day 1 is over - feel free to join us in https://els2021.common-lisp.net/meet/cdr for chat and virtual beer
2021-05-03T15:54:53Z splittist: 123456 with natural breaks for easier reading, as in python, rust etc.
2021-05-03T15:55:11Z lotuseater: oh ELS is TODAY :D
2021-05-03T15:55:18Z phoe: and tomorrow!
2021-05-03T15:55:29Z phoe: we have a full Twitch recording of today
2021-05-03T15:55:34Z lotuseater: yes, two days you said :)
2021-05-03T15:55:53Z Bike: oh, so you just ignore them? i see
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2021-05-03T15:56:39Z Bike: that does seem a little bit involved as a reader macro since you can't just use READ
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2021-05-03T15:58:46Z splittist: Bike: I snarf up everything until a whitespace or terminating macro char into a string with the _s removed, and READ-FROM-STRING (broadly).
2021-05-03T15:58:55Z Bike: yeah, makes sense.
2021-05-03T16:00:40Z jcowan: that's quite nice
2021-05-03T16:00:56Z splittist: It works, but it seems to be waiting for extra input when READing from *standard-input*. I'll look at some implementation macros to see what might be happening.
2021-05-03T16:01:58Z jcowan: READ doesn't read a terminating newline (it will be ignored by the next READ), which may be your problem in simple REPL testing.
2021-05-03T16:02:32Z splittist: jcowan: you can even #44_123,456,789 . (I think I decided to disallow #32_123 456 789 (: )
2021-05-03T16:02:54Z splittist: jcowan: ah. Good point.
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2021-05-03T16:05:08Z lotuseater: so one of the complement things that are possible with FORMAT's ~d (not just grouping in parts of three digits)
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2021-05-03T16:10:40Z jcowan: Before the Unixifcation of Lisp, READ read characters in raw mode (which was all there was) so as soon as you typed the matching ) it took off.  That accounts for the references to "rubout handlers", since deleting a character meant unparsing.  It also explains why PRINT prints a newline first instead of last.
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2021-05-03T16:11:24Z jcowan: the order was read up to last ), evaluate, print CRLF, print value
2021-05-03T16:11:29Z splittist: lotuseater: yeah. (format t "~:,,'_,4d" rupees)
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2021-05-03T16:15:46Z pjb: jcowan: well, right, but print with terpri first, was foremost a legacy of line printer and punched cards.
2021-05-03T16:16:26Z jcowan: How is that?  When you read a card, you get an implied terminator
2021-05-03T16:16:35Z pjb: (format nil "~:,,'_,4d" 123456.789) #| ERROR: Unknown directive ,  |#
2021-05-03T16:17:15Z pjb: (format nil "~,,'_,4:d" 123456.789) #| --> "123456.79" |#
2021-05-03T16:17:17Z jcowan: Makes sense.  |# is recognized directly by #|, not by the readtable.
2021-05-03T16:17:50Z jcowan: oh wait, nm
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2021-05-03T16:18:29Z pjb: I don't know any standard CL format specifier that will do unregular groupping as needed for indian numbers.
2021-05-03T16:18:31Z splittist: Works on my phone :P
2021-05-03T16:19:13Z pjb: 3,00,00,000 ₹
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2021-05-03T16:20:09Z lotuseater: oh interesting, didn't know there's unregular grouping
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2021-05-03T16:22:07Z pjb: you could write a format function to do it (format nil "~20,2/indian-grouping/" 30000000) --> "      3,00,00,000.00"
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2021-05-03T16:23:43Z beach: lukego: If you like to discuss implementation techniques, a lot of discussions happen in #sicl.
2021-05-03T16:24:00Z beach: lukego: And we take questions, too. :)
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2021-05-03T16:27:17Z jcowan: lotuseater: It matches the pattern of Indian numeral words: a lakh is 100 thousand and a crore is 100 lakh (names vary in different Indian languages, but these are the ones used in "I have a doubt" English.  :-)
2021-05-03T16:29:01Z lotuseater: :)
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2021-05-03T16:32:51Z phoe: I remember that there was a recent discussion about the commercial version of OpenGenera and how it works at the moment - could someone help me look for it?
2021-05-03T16:33:14Z phoe: and about its current licensing state and the commercial VLM code
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2021-05-03T17:00:53Z skami: Hello everyone. I had some weird bug today that when I did `(somesymbol somethingelse) I would get some garbage at the end on the list on subsequent execution of the function. I managed to find that this was caused by a call to mapcan somewhere else. Would have there been a way to track this kind of bug like setting a watchpoint or something like that on the cddr of the original two element list ? Thanks in advance
2021-05-03T17:01:42Z White_Flame: phoe: there was some talk here https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp?around=1617252886
2021-05-03T17:01:57Z White_Flame: palter's the one working on it, still online
2021-05-03T17:03:38Z palter: Yes, I'm still working on it. Licensing is in limbo right now.
2021-05-03T17:04:32Z phoe: White_Flame: yes! thank you!
2021-05-03T17:04:43Z phoe: there is a post-ELS-day-1 discussion about it
2021-05-03T17:04:53Z phoe: palter: do you have a while? maybe you could join us on voice/video and talk a little bit about it
2021-05-03T17:05:34Z palter: Sorry but I don't have time right now.
2021-05-03T17:05:39Z phoe: palter: OK, no problem
2021-05-03T17:06:02Z phoe: I've linked to this part of #lisp log - it'll do for now.
2021-05-03T17:06:39Z White_Flame: it's not a link to the start of hte conversation, though.  just what happened to pop up on websearch
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2021-05-03T17:07:43Z phoe: White_Flame: it's the part I was thinking of though
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2021-05-03T17:26:02Z kevingal: skami: this might help: https://lisp-journey.gitlab.io/blog/debugging-in-common-lisp/
2021-05-03T17:26:35Z phoe: skami: I don't think you can set watchpoints on when concrete objects are modified
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2021-05-03T17:26:46Z phoe: I'm not aware of any implementation that does that
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2021-05-03T17:28:08Z skami: kevingal: Thanks, interesting read
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2021-05-03T17:28:28Z skami: phoe: Ha, that's a bummer. That would be a useful feature
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2021-05-03T17:29:10Z kevingal: According to that article, ADVISE and WATCH are available in LispWorks, but not SBCL.
2021-05-03T17:29:54Z phoe: !
2021-05-03T17:29:58Z phoe: so LW has it!
2021-05-03T17:32:03Z skami: That's cool, I might try to push for a LispWorks licence at work
2021-05-03T17:32:24Z sm2n: I'm not sure if this is what you want, but sly has something called stickers
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2021-05-03T17:36:20Z skami: It's an interesting feature. If sly can add breakpoints like I wonder if it could be possible to simply setup for sly to break and check if a variable was modified every call and return.
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2021-05-03T20:10:24Z phoe: nice
2021-05-03T20:10:50Z phoe: I received a bugticket on p-c-s tests because the people reimplementing it in clojure found a bug that was not caught by the test suite
2021-05-03T20:11:19Z phoe: but the test suite is actually ANSI-TEST so I get to add another test to it while fixing the p-c-s ticket!
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2021-05-03T21:18:17Z gendl__: does anyone know what it means when Swank/Slime crashes the lisp instead of giving a debugger?
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2021-05-03T21:19:25Z Bike: slime crashes? you know it's not just your lisp crashing?
2021-05-03T21:19:46Z gendl__: when I connect to a container at home, it works fine, proper debugger.  When tunneling to a remote server, it just crashes lisp instead of giving a debugger.  And it spews some nonsensical error. (I can paste the error later but just in case this is some obvious common thing -- I seem to think I've had it and fixed it before... but once again apparently I didn't formalize the fix...)
2021-05-03T21:19:57Z opcode: i've had sly crash all of emacs when using sly and company-mode together
2021-05-03T21:19:59Z gendl__: well it is Lisp crashing but with some swank/slime errors
2021-05-03T21:20:00Z opcode: i switched back to slime
2021-05-03T21:21:28Z gendl__: I think the lisp is just exiting because it sees end-of-file on the input or something... anyway it's kinda dangerous to slime in to a production server to try to monkey-patch it when any slip of the keyboard will crash the lisp... kinda defeats the purpose.. I have to fix other stuff first though unless this is something common and obivous
2021-05-03T21:22:30Z theo[m]: Is it the cl+ssl issue?
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2021-05-03T21:37:03Z gigamonkey: (* 2000 2)
2021-05-03T21:37:28Z gigamonkey: Heh. a) wrong buffer b) duh, of course I can multiply that in my head.
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2021-05-03T21:41:54Z gendl__: theo[m]: I don't think it has to do anything with ssl. Slime/swank are not using ssl are they?
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2021-05-03T21:44:57Z theo[m]: gendl__: no, but sometimes hunhentoot and drakma breaks when loading, halting on cl+ssl
2021-05-03T21:45:23Z theo[m]: Not sure if you load some libraries that load it transitively
2021-05-03T21:46:12Z theo[m]: https://github.com/cl-plus-ssl/cl-plus-ssl/issues/114
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2021-05-03T21:47:02Z gendl__: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/q2XvPmKZ/
2021-05-03T21:47:24Z gendl__: enough speculation. 👆 there's the error.
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2021-05-03T21:47:45Z gendl__: the first error is from my (load-glime) which (rightly) throws an error because of a NIL pathname.
2021-05-03T21:49:06Z gendl__: but then it disgorges some unholy mess from the bowels of swank and the lisp exits (then restarts in this case because the server is running it in an infinite loop).
2021-05-03T21:49:45Z gendl__: is it a stream thing? Do I need to set some stream parameters after connecting?
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2021-05-03T21:51:26Z gendl__: looks like it's trying to show the backtrace from my legit error but it's mixed with a bunch of swank stream stuff
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2021-05-03T21:58:54Z luis: gendl__: dispatch-loop in swank.lisp calls the ABORT restart if anything goes wrong with the connection, hopefully that's only aborting the swank thread rather than the whole Lisp?
2021-05-03T21:59:32Z gendl__: I'm pretty sure it's exiting the lisp. but I'll confirm that.
2021-05-03T22:00:10Z luis: gendl__: it could also be that some unhandled error is killing your lisp if you have the debugger disabled
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2021-05-03T22:00:47Z gendl__: oooh.  maybe I'm not building the debugger into my build
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2021-05-03T22:01:49Z gendl__: I'm using (ccl:save-application  :prepend-kernel t ... )
2021-05-03T22:02:09Z gendl__: maybe I have to tell it to include the dev environment and debugger when I do that?
2021-05-03T22:02:16Z gendl__: I need to rtfm more...
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2021-05-03T22:03:04Z luis: gendl__: you can test this hypothesis with something simpler like (error "foo")
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2021-05-03T22:04:01Z gendl__: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/JVRsl7Cd/
2021-05-03T22:04:30Z phoe: this looks like executing with debugger disabled
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2021-05-03T22:06:51Z gendl__: but, https://ccl.clozure.com/manual/chapter4.9.html doesn't mention anything about a switch to include the debugger in the saved application.
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2021-05-03T22:07:47Z gendl__: I'm used to Allegro CL where you can include or exclude things on a fairly fine-grained basis.
2021-05-03T22:07:49Z phoe: :error-handler :listener
2021-05-03T22:07:51Z phoe: seems like this
2021-05-03T22:07:57Z gendl__: oh?
2021-05-03T22:08:14Z phoe: grep the page for error-handler
2021-05-03T22:08:21Z phoe: it's a kwarg to save-application
2021-05-03T22:08:31Z akoana: hi, I'm a bit confused by Peter Norvig's GPS example, he uses (defvar *state* ...) and (defvar *ops* ...) then (defun GPS (*state* goals *ops*) ...)   as  shown on https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp/blob/master/docs/chapter4.md  under 4.3 Stage 3: Implementation.  Why does he use earmuffs in the defun lambda-list, is that anything special?
2021-05-03T22:08:52Z Bike: so that they're the same variables?
2021-05-03T22:08:55Z gendl__: yes but it defaults to :listener
2021-05-03T22:08:59Z phoe: oh
2021-05-03T22:09:00Z Bike: when you call gps it will bind those special variables
2021-05-03T22:09:01Z gendl__: anyway I'll try specifying it
2021-05-03T22:09:04Z phoe: hm
2021-05-03T22:09:23Z phoe: I'll crash asleep instead then
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2021-05-03T22:09:45Z gendl__: yep, beddy time.
2021-05-03T22:09:46Z White_Flame: akoana: (defun GPS (*state* ...) ..) has the same effect as (let ((*state* ...)) ...) regarding the parameter
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2021-05-03T22:10:32Z White_Flame: and (defun foo (params &optional (*var* *var*)) ...) is another pattern I've seen
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2021-05-03T22:14:06Z akoana: thanks, hmm, not sure if I understand that, I'm quite new to Common Lisp... and I've not seen that anywhere else before (reading Practical Common Lisp too)...
2021-05-03T22:15:24Z akoana: at least not in a defun lambda-list...
2021-05-03T22:16:54Z saturn2: you can establish a dynamic binding on a special variable anywhere you can establish a lexical binding, including a function call
2021-05-03T22:17:17Z akoana: ah, ok now I see, thanks!
2021-05-03T22:20:00Z akoana: thank you Bike, White_Flame and saturn2
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2021-05-03T22:26:59Z White_Flame: the earmuffs are of course just a naming convention.  It's the defvar/defparameter that declares that the variable is "special", and thus (let ((*var* ...)) ...) is visible from anywhere in the same thread during the lifetime of that scope
2021-05-03T22:27:33Z White_Flame: (defun foo (&optional (*var* *var*)) ..) means that (foo) rebinds the variable to its existing value, and (foo 3) would rebind it to 3 within that scope
2021-05-03T22:28:21Z White_Flame: which is a syntactically short way to have it optionally redefined
2021-05-03T22:30:12Z akoana: yes, the &optional example was the clue for me :)
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2021-05-03T22:35:15Z akoana: White_Flame: nevertheless, your excellent explanation was very insightful for me, thanks
2021-05-03T22:39:27Z akoana: (before I was wondering why *state* and *ops* weren't used at all in the body of gps, lol)
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2021-05-03T22:51:53Z akoana: so   (let ((*state* state-value) (*ops* ops-value) (gps goals)))  would have the same effect as
2021-05-03T22:51:56Z akoana: (gps (state-value goals ops-value))
2021-05-03T22:53:38Z akoana: ... assuming two versions of gps
2021-05-03T22:54:22Z akoana: just trying to make sure I got it right?
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2021-05-03T22:56:50Z akoana: sorry, got the parens wrong: (let ((*state* state-value) (*ops* ops-value)) (gps goals))
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2021-05-03T23:33:26Z pjb: skami: So, you understand now that the problem is that the backquote reader macros reads an expression that may return some literal data, that must be considered immutable, but that you have modified with mapcan.  The way to avoid it, is to remember that mapcan mutates the results of the mapped function.
2021-05-03T23:34:21Z pjb: skami: In those cases, you may use copy-list in the mapped function: (mapcan (lambda (x) (copy-list `(…))) …)
2021-05-03T23:35:20Z pjb: skami: or to use concatenate, if the mapped list is short (less than call-arguments-limit -2): (apply (function concatenate) 'list (mapcaR (lambda (x) `(…))))
2021-05-03T23:35:41Z pjb: skami: beware: don't use append, since append does not copy the last list!
2021-05-03T23:36:22Z pjb: skami: in general, beware with the mututating functions (non-consing functions, and other functions that modify the objects passed in parameter).
2021-05-03T23:38:47Z pjb: skami: now, there is not a lot of option to debug it (apart trying to locate where it's modified, by looking at the modified data), because while literal data is theorically immutable, in practice there's no difference between literal objects and normal objects, notably when you work at the REPL.
2021-05-03T23:38:53Z pjb: skami: The compiler could arrange things to put the literal data in a read-only segment, but since most implementation use lisp images, they dont save file formats with read-only data segments. Only ecl does that (compiling to elf files using gcc), but I don't know if it takes advantage of that to arrange for literal data to be read-only.
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2021-05-03T23:39:13Z pjb: skami: some scheme implementations have immutable pairs, but this is quite inconvenient…
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2021-05-03T23:40:14Z pjb: skami: that said, nothing would prevent you to patch your implementation to add such a feature. We could have a (ext:set-read-only object) extension such that if a mutator is applied later on the object, an error condition is signaled.
2021-05-03T23:40:23Z pjb: skami: it would be an interesting project to do that.
2021-05-03T23:41:05Z pjb: skami: then you could add calls to EXT:SET-READ-ONLY in reader macros, and in the QUOTE operator.
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2021-05-04T00:23:04Z mister_m: What causes (subseq "a" 1) to result in ""? If I try to access the character at that same position, it would result in an out of bounds error.
2021-05-04T00:26:17Z aeth: (elt (subseq "a" 0) 0) => #\a
2021-05-04T00:26:21Z aeth: (elt (subseq "a" 1) 0) ; errors
2021-05-04T00:26:26Z aeth: So it's consistent with that behavior
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2021-05-04T00:27:29Z aeth: It's probably permitted to allow iteration that ends with "", which is sort of like list processing (a lot of those algorithms end on NIL)
2021-05-04T00:27:53Z mister_m: I see, that makes sense to me
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2021-05-04T00:29:12Z aeth: This whole way of thinking kind of parallels car/cdr, except that it's not efficient (since SUBSEQ is consing up a new string each time)
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2021-05-04T00:33:05Z saturn2: it's permitted for the start of a sequence bounding index to equal the length of the sequence
2021-05-04T00:33:46Z saturn2: the result is simply an empty sequence
2021-05-04T00:35:29Z aeth: it makes sense because it's sequence-generic including lists, e.g. (subseq (list #\a) 1) or (subseq (list #\a #\b #\c) 1) not just (subseq "a" 1) or (subseq "abc" 1)
2021-05-04T00:36:20Z aeth: So it really is just a generalization of CDR
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2021-05-04T00:36:55Z aeth: (conceptually, at least... concretely, it copies!)
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2021-05-04T00:37:25Z saturn2: i would say it avoids a class of special cases you'd otherwise need to check for, and just makes logical sense
2021-05-04T00:37:46Z saturn2: similar to how (+) is 0
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2021-05-04T00:40:00Z saturn2: the length of a subsequence is always (- end start), whether or not start and end are equal
2021-05-04T00:40:17Z mister_m: thanks for the clarification; I've been doing a lot of car/cdr iteration lately and that sort of jumped out as a "huh" moment
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2021-05-04T01:40:32Z skami: pjb: Thanks for the clarification ! That would indeed be a fun projet to add such a read-only feature
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2021-05-04T01:42:11Z skami: I'm surprised to learn that append doesn't copy the last list, but it does make sense
2021-05-04T01:50:31Z stylewarning: APPEND, like most lisp functions, prefers to get the job done with the fewest copies
2021-05-04T01:51:29Z no-defun-allowed: APPEND could get confused if it tried to copy something that isn't a list, e.g. in (append '(1 2 3) 'a)
2021-05-04T01:51:58Z no-defun-allowed: (or at least, as if it used COPY-LIST to copy.)
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2021-05-04T03:06:47Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-05-04T09:03:25Z madrik: Why are older versions of quicklisp-installed packages kept around after upgrading?
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2021-05-04T09:06:59Z makomo: hello \o
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2021-05-04T09:07:55Z beach: Hello makomo.
2021-05-04T09:08:16Z makomo: hi beach :)
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2021-05-04T09:12:04Z madrik: By 'older versions', I meant the archives.
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2021-05-04T10:08:23Z luis: madrik: well, you can go back if the upgrade broke your software, or you can have different software on different versions of the quicklisp distribution
2021-05-04T10:09:45Z luis: madrik: http://blog.quicklisp.org/2011/08/going-back-in-dist-time.html
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2021-05-04T10:27:19Z Xach: madrik: you can also use ql-dist:clean to clean them up
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2021-05-04T10:46:34Z madrik: luis: Thanks for the link.
2021-05-04T10:47:56Z madrik: Xach: Thanks for that.
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2021-05-04T11:56:28Z drmeister: Hello
2021-05-04T11:57:08Z drmeister: Xach: We've been running a "quickclasp" server to distribute stuff specific to clasp - it's been working well.
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2021-05-04T11:57:59Z Xach: drmeister: nice
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2021-05-04T12:22:18Z phoe: drmeister: very nice
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2021-05-04T12:30:59Z nij: Anyone knows how to use this library? In particular, how to use #'digit? to parse a digit? https://github.com/Ramarren/cl-parser-combinators/blob/9c7569a4f6af5e60c0d3a51d9c15c16d1714c845/token-parsers.lisp
2021-05-04T12:32:54Z lotuseater: ah (monadic) parser combinators are powerful :)
2021-05-04T12:33:02Z nij: I know I want to learn it.
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2021-05-04T12:59:31Z splittist: nij: you mean beyond (parse-string* (seq-list? (digit?) (digit?) (digit?)) "123") ?
2021-05-04T13:00:50Z splittist: (which yields (#\1 #\2 #\3); nil; t; nil; and a hash-table )
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2021-05-04T13:02:00Z nij: oh wow
2021-05-04T13:02:02Z nij: lemme try
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2021-05-04T13:05:57Z nij: Cool. It works. Next is to try to learn how it's implemented.. I feel like it's more advanced than my level.
2021-05-04T13:08:42Z nij: splittist: Do you happen to know if cl-parser-combinators can parse sexprs?
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2021-05-04T13:16:02Z splittist: Built in? I don't know. As a general parsing lib it must be able to if set up. I guess you'd define atom? (or whatever your language requires) then match on an open paren, any number of sexps and a close paren. Not quite like this: (parse-string* (bracket? #\( (sepby? (int?) #\Space) #\)) "(1 2 3)")
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2021-05-04T13:20:05Z nij: Thanks for the hint. I'm not capable of building that up yet. But I've taken notes.
2021-05-04T13:20:16Z nij: Now I'm very curious about one other thing.. not quite related.
2021-05-04T13:20:33Z nij: From functional parsers, we see that its syntax is quite like a DSL.
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2021-05-04T13:20:49Z nij: What's different is that the components of the DSL are functions!
2021-05-04T13:21:11Z nij: Many articles I read about lisp only says that macro helps you create DSLs a lot easier.
2021-05-04T13:21:33Z nij: But.. can macros also be useful when it comes to this sort of "functional DSLs"?
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2021-05-04T13:25:21Z beach: nij: Macros are useful for introducing "syntactic abstractions", i.e., new syntax.  You don't need macros if you can express your DSL as a collection of functions with normal function-call semantics.  And in cases like that, you can write your DSL in any language you like.
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2021-05-04T13:27:24Z nij: I see. That's my impression yeah. I don't see why macros and DSLs are tided together so much.. at least in many introductory articles.
2021-05-04T13:27:41Z nij: Afterall, macros are for and only for syntactic abstractions.
2021-05-04T13:27:49Z beach: Because, when people say "DSL", they usually mean specific syntax.
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2021-05-04T13:28:31Z nij: Oh, and macros can be nice tools to rewrite the syntax into more lispier ones?
2021-05-04T13:28:46Z nij: Ah, then it makes sense.
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2021-05-04T13:29:55Z lotuseater: yes, they can take anything and transform it :) or when you just not want having to type in so much quotes
2021-05-04T13:32:29Z lotuseater: or eg look at FORMAT, it's a function, that calls the macro FORMATTER, which takes the control-string and transforms that to the corresponding form for using the args
2021-05-04T13:33:40Z nij: I see.
2021-05-04T13:33:56Z nij is in awe.
2021-05-04T13:34:00Z beach: nij: The use of macros to implement a DSL in Common Lisp would be used precisely to make the syntax less Lisp-y.  If you want Lisp syntax, just use Common Lisp.
2021-05-04T13:34:06Z lotuseater: or telling you that a symbol can't go into a slot with ~D
2021-05-04T13:35:57Z pjb: beach: in general. But in the case of format, it could be used to make it lispier :-) (format (formatter "Name: (a :width 20) Age: (d :width 3) year(p :with-previous-arg t)(newline)")  'john 99)
2021-05-04T13:36:06Z pjb: s/formatter/lispy-formatter/
2021-05-04T13:36:35Z beach: Sure.
2021-05-04T13:38:07Z nij: pjb is this a real example? It doesn't work for me
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2021-05-04T13:44:08Z pjb: nij: no, it's wishfull programming.
2021-05-04T13:44:36Z pjb: nij: but you can pass your own formatting function to format instead of a format control (format t (function my-formatter) a b c)
2021-05-04T13:45:12Z pjb: format control n. a format string, or a function that obeys the argument conventions for a function returned by the formatter macro. See Section 22.2.1.3 (Compiling Format Strings).
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2021-05-04T13:47:41Z pjb: nij: https://termbin.com/uttrn
2021-05-04T13:49:09Z lotuseater: oh yes, useful if one does not know how to do it with control-strings :)
2021-05-04T13:50:43Z pjb: nij: https://termbin.com/k4mny
2021-05-04T13:50:50Z pjb: You can use it with ~? too.
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2021-05-04T13:51:14Z pjb: Or of course, you can also use ~/custom-format-specifier-function/
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2021-05-04T13:52:28Z nij : =-O
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2021-05-04T13:53:06Z pjb: the trick of the formatter macro, is to let the macro generate the function itself, from a new description of what is to be formatted.
2021-05-04T13:54:13Z nij: I just learned that #'format is highly hackable.
2021-05-04T13:54:14Z splittist: (defun printformatter (control-string) (lambda (stream &rest args) (apply #'printfcl:fprintf stream control-string args))) (printformatter "%d %d %d") (format t * 1 2 3) => 1 2 3 (:
2021-05-04T13:54:15Z nij: Thanks!!!!
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2021-05-04T16:07:30Z phoe: European Lisp Symposium 2021 is now over and heisig, easye, SAL9000, flip214, and ehuelsmann all deserve a beer! thanks for their support!!
2021-05-04T16:07:38Z SAL9000: <3
2021-05-04T16:08:06Z beach: Thanks to everyone.  Fantastic work!!!!!
2021-05-04T16:08:47Z beach: Do we know how many participants there were in the chat(s)?
2021-05-04T16:09:25Z beach: It seemed to me that several new people attended.  Perhaps because of the virtual access.  But it is good publicity for ELS anyway.
2021-05-04T16:09:58Z heisig: The peak was at 178 participants, I think.  Most of the time, we had 120-130 participants.
2021-05-04T16:10:31Z beach: That's very good.
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2021-05-04T16:10:58Z Nilby: Great job everyone.
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2021-05-04T16:13:34Z phoe: heisig: this does not include non-logged-in-people
2021-05-04T16:13:40Z phoe: or people who viewed via VLC/MPV
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2021-05-04T16:14:00Z phoe: so it might be closer to 150 people, though we won't know that for sure
2021-05-04T16:14:29Z Gnuxie[m]: wouldn't you think there are more people who aren't logged in?
2021-05-04T16:14:38Z MichaelRaskin: Is this sum of Twitch + IRC membership?
2021-05-04T16:15:03Z phoe: Gnuxie[m]: I would
2021-05-04T16:15:08Z phoe: but I want to be conservative in my estimates
2021-05-04T16:15:20Z phoe: MichaelRaskin: that's the Twitch viewer count I think
2021-05-04T16:15:27Z Gnuxie[m]: fair
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2021-05-04T16:16:25Z heisig: Yes, that was the Twitch viewer count shown below the video.
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2021-05-04T16:54:31Z jmercouris: is there a way to run SBCL and have it ignore ~/.config/common-lisp/source-registry.conf.d/user-lisp.conf ?
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2021-05-04T16:55:36Z loli: jmercouris: --no-userinit maybe? I know in script mode it does not read the user default config
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2021-05-04T16:57:18Z jmercouris: hm, I think that will just ignore ~/.sbclrc
2021-05-04T16:57:38Z jdz: There's also --no-sysinit
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2021-05-04T16:58:17Z jmercouris: I see, thank you
2021-05-04T16:59:06Z jdz: And I'm pretty sure the source registry thing is use by ASDF.
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2021-05-04T16:59:41Z jdz: In other words you should look at ASDF documentation about how to control it.
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2021-05-04T17:01:11Z jmercouris: OK
2021-05-04T17:02:19Z jdz: But in general why do you have ~/.config/common-lisp/source-registry.conf.d/ if you don't want it?
2021-05-04T17:02:28Z jmercouris: I'm trying to figure out how to make a NixOS tool work
2021-05-04T17:02:37Z jmercouris: I like having this file, and use it personally
2021-05-04T17:02:50Z jmercouris: however, the tool 'quicklisp-to-nix' breaks when this file is present and populated
2021-05-04T17:03:02Z loli: is it finding the wrong asdf package?
2021-05-04T17:03:09Z jmercouris: Correct, and it is trying to recompile it
2021-05-04T17:03:12Z loli: ahh
2021-05-04T17:03:19Z loli: I've had similar issues with ros
2021-05-04T17:03:21Z jmercouris: and it cannot, because it is trying to recompile in a non-writable directory
2021-05-04T17:03:35Z loli: if you want the right one I often have
2021-05-04T17:03:37Z loli: (push #p"./" asdf:*central-registry*)
2021-05-04T17:03:41Z jdz: Pretty sure for reproducible builds you do not want to read any system or user initfiles, and provide everything on the command line.
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2021-05-04T17:04:16Z MichaelRaskin: The reproducible part does not see the $HOME in the first place
2021-05-04T17:04:34Z jdz: Too bad this will not help with ASDF automatically looking at user initfiles.
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2021-05-04T17:09:43Z nij: Hello! What's the best timer you've used before? I just realize today that a robust timer isn't very easy to design.. currently the best I have is systemd.timer, but it isn't lispy at all.
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2021-05-04T17:20:51Z jmercouris: nij: (bt:make-thread (lambda () (sleep 10) (make-loud-noise)))
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2021-05-04T17:26:07Z nij: I should say systemd.timer supports scheduling a job at a certain time, e.g. [2022-01-01 10:53:46]. It saves a comprehensive backlog of states and outputs/errors from the program. If the machine misses, by being off for example, the job, it will launch the job immediately next time the timer starts.
2021-05-04T17:26:40Z nij: (I don't like the last feature by the way.. I think it's better for the system to inform the user.. but not force it happens at a time the user wasn't even aware of.')
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2021-05-04T18:14:35Z jdz: nij: Pretty sure there's an option to control that.
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2021-05-04T18:15:33Z jdz: nij: Persistent.
2021-05-04T18:16:21Z jdz: Actually defaults to false.  See systemd.timer(5).
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2021-05-04T18:23:46Z nij: Yes, "Persistent" was what I meant.
2021-05-04T18:24:01Z nij: But.. I hope there's a lispier version of systemd.timer ;)
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2021-05-04T18:25:00Z jdz: What do you mean by that?  What does it have to do with lisp?
2021-05-04T18:25:34Z lotuseater: nij: or checkout mcron
2021-05-04T18:25:49Z nij: lotuseater: mcron only recovers from suspended state.
2021-05-04T18:25:59Z nij: afaik it doesn't take care of other edge cases
2021-05-04T18:26:09Z nij: i dunno if it logs everything.. but based on its manual.. no
2021-05-04T18:26:17Z nij: https://www.gnu.org/software/mcron/manual/mcron.html#Behaviour-on-laptops
2021-05-04T18:27:02Z nij: mcron is more like crontab.. which is small and cool, but not robust: https://opensource.com/article/20/7/systemd-timers
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2021-05-04T18:28:51Z jdz: nij: And what your imagined lispy solution would be like?
2021-05-04T18:29:43Z nij: log should be a clos object.. not just a bunch of text, for example.
2021-05-04T18:29:56Z nij: syntax too.. lemme give you an example
2021-05-04T18:30:53Z nij: config should be in lisp as well.
2021-05-04T18:31:15Z jdz: You mean config should be code?
2021-05-04T18:31:24Z nij: example:
2021-05-04T18:31:24Z nij: [Install]
2021-05-04T18:31:24Z nij: WantedBy=multi-user.target
2021-05-04T18:31:31Z jdz: Don't paste stuff here.
2021-05-04T18:31:43Z nij: This should be (install (:wantedby "multi-user.target"))
2021-05-04T18:32:06Z nij: (infinitely better)
2021-05-04T18:32:11Z jdz: That sounds like re-writing systemd configuration using s-expressions.
2021-05-04T18:32:21Z nij: This is on the config side only.
2021-05-04T18:32:45Z nij: When reviewing the log.. it would be less painful as well.
2021-05-04T18:33:51Z jdz: nij: Maybe you want https://www.gnu.org/software/shepherd/ ?
2021-05-04T18:34:01Z nij: shepherd afaik doesn't have the timer part
2021-05-04T18:34:09Z nij: shepherd is more like systemd
2021-05-04T18:34:23Z nij: Both of them manage many services.
2021-05-04T18:34:42Z nij: But systemd.timer is something that's "not really needed for service management, but helpful".
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2021-05-04T18:34:54Z jdz: All you talk about here is how you want systemd with lispy syntax, and now object that shepherd is a service manager?
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2021-05-04T18:35:17Z jdz: How is starting (and cleaning up after) services not related to service management?
2021-05-04T18:35:20Z nij: no, not a lispy systemd, but a lispy systemd.timer.
2021-05-04T18:35:49Z nij: (not (eq 'systemd 'systemd.timer)) ;=> t
2021-05-04T18:36:16Z jdz: You can't have "systemd.timer" without "systemd".
2021-05-04T18:36:45Z nij: That's right. But with systemd, you do not really need a systemd.timer. And that's, afaik, the case for shepherd.
2021-05-04T18:36:57Z jdz: You don't really need an OS.
2021-05-04T18:37:00Z nij: It doesn't have a dedicated timer like systemd.
2021-05-04T18:37:17Z nij: jdz:  yeah, all i need is pencils and papers!
2021-05-04T18:37:46Z jdz: This does not seem like anything lisp related, so I'll just stop.
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2021-05-04T18:39:44Z Nilby: nij: It sounds like you want an unix operating system controled and configured by Lisp, which is great, but you can't execpt that someone has done it for you already. The closest might be Guix with guile scheme.
2021-05-04T18:40:04Z nij: Nilby:  no.. not a unix OS, but a timer.
2021-05-04T18:40:49Z nij: There are actually many attempts out there, including mcron (scheme), cl-cron, clerk.. But they are not a full-fledge timer.
2021-05-04T18:40:59Z Nilby: On the other hand if you just want something to happen at a certain time inside a lisp process, that is not hard. Just use sleep or the system interval timer.
2021-05-04T18:41:20Z nij: But I agree, I cannot expect that someone has done that. I might write my own once I'm convinced there isn't any.
2021-05-04T18:41:57Z Nilby: As far as I know there isn't a Lisp "cron" like thing.
2021-05-04T18:42:17Z nij: mcron, clerk, cl-cron are crons in Lisp.
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2021-05-04T18:47:17Z Nilby: nij: Then you've probably already researched it more than most. It sounds like you might then have, fix up, or make the next best Lisp cron.
2021-05-04T18:49:29Z Nilby: When I want just a simple timer inside a lisp image, I just use a simple macro: (do-at <time>) &
2021-05-04T18:50:02Z Nilby: or rather (do-at (time) <body..>)
2021-05-04T18:51:49Z Nilby: but it's helpful to have a nice date/time parser, and a convenient in-a-thread thing like use "&"
2021-05-04T18:53:40Z jdz: SBCL has SCHEDULE-TIMER.
2021-05-04T18:54:13Z jdz: http://sbcl.org/manual/index.html#Timers
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2021-05-04T19:03:07Z Nilby: schedule-timer is pretty good, and more O/S portable
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2021-05-04T19:05:21Z nij: Right..
2021-05-04T19:05:37Z nij: I guess what's really missing from these timers is the "service managing" part.
2021-05-04T19:06:02Z nij: And so it makes sense why systemd.timer is designed "under" systemd, for the later is a robust service manager.
2021-05-04T19:07:19Z nij: A process, if want to be scheduled robustly, should be first wrapped into a service. Calling a service needs to take care of all issues, including full-logging.
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2021-05-04T20:36:30Z motersen: Hey everyone, I am having trouble with a strange condition/restart/recursion situation.
2021-05-04T20:36:38Z motersen: https://gist.github.com/motersen/ac088cecd2582243961c7d3e57cf6cb2
2021-05-04T20:36:43Z motersen: On CCL this does what I would expect it to. It runs #'always-fail 3 times, then fails. But on SBCL, the value of retries is reset every time the handler is run. Is behaviour in this situation undefined? Am I going about this all wrong?
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2021-05-04T20:38:10Z phoe: hmmmmmm
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2021-05-04T20:38:31Z phoe: the handler should be created once, and it should close over RETRIES
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2021-05-04T20:38:59Z phoe: wait a second
2021-05-04T20:39:02Z phoe: this works for me on SBCL
2021-05-04T20:39:11Z Bike: i get a control overflow.
2021-05-04T20:39:12Z phoe: which sbcl version are you running?
2021-05-04T20:39:18Z phoe: what are your compiler settings?
2021-05-04T20:39:23Z Bike: mine is 2.1.1
2021-05-04T20:39:28Z phoe: (sb-ext:describe-compiler-policy)
2021-05-04T20:39:41Z phoe: I have all default policy and run on 2.1.3
2021-05-04T20:39:46Z Bike: optimize is all 1s
2021-05-04T20:39:52Z phoe: broken on 2.1.0
2021-05-04T20:39:54Z phoe: fixed on 2.1.3
2021-05-04T20:40:04Z Bike: too bad sbcl.org is down so i can't check the changelog.
2021-05-04T20:40:06Z phoe: so, upgrade I guess
2021-05-04T20:40:16Z phoe: Bike: https://sbcl.sourceforge.io/
2021-05-04T20:40:38Z Bike: thanks
2021-05-04T20:40:55Z Bike: "bug fix: HANDLER-BIND evaluates the forms producing handler functions only once. (#1916302, reported by Christophe Junke) " in 2.1.2
2021-05-04T20:41:07Z motersen: oh, alright
2021-05-04T20:41:09Z motersen: thanks
2021-05-04T20:41:27Z Bike: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1916302/comments/1 here is the explanation
2021-05-04T20:41:37Z motersen: looks like i will have to get roswell to get that on debian, right?
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2021-05-04T20:43:05Z motersen: i have 1.4.16 installed atm
2021-05-04T20:43:11Z Nilby: or clone from git://git.code.sf.net/p/sbcl/sbcl
2021-05-04T20:43:12Z phoe: oh that's ancient
2021-05-04T20:43:52Z Nilby: if sbcl.org is down
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2021-05-04T20:45:31Z phoe: yes, you can use the old SBCL to build the new SBCL
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2021-05-04T20:45:43Z python476: hi there
2021-05-04T20:45:48Z python476: i'm trying to install quicklisp
2021-05-04T20:46:58Z python476: but the .asc file verification yields https://dpaste.com/HKUEZ8B34
2021-05-04T20:46:59Z motersen: ah okay, will do so. Then i'll just install the new version locally. Thank you all, that was a quick case!
2021-05-04T20:48:41Z python476: I run Linux Mint 20 btw
2021-05-04T20:48:56Z phoe: Xach: ^
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2021-05-04T20:50:15Z Xach: python476: you have to also download the quicklisp public key - https://beta.quicklisp.org/release-key.txt is one way to get it.
2021-05-04T20:50:24Z Xach: you can also get it from key servers
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2021-05-04T20:53:13Z python476: thanks Xach
2021-05-04T20:54:46Z |3b|: Xach: i have some TTF fonts that start contours on a curve control point (so not on-curve-p), which confuses zpb-ttf:do-contour-segments/do-contour-segments*, do you think it would be better to rotate the control points so the contour starts on the curve, or to make d-c-s smarter to handle that case?
2021-05-04T20:55:51Z |3b| thinks adjusting the data to start on the curve would be easier, but also somewhat dislikes changing it from what's stored in the file :/
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2021-05-04T20:58:52Z |3b|: actually i guess fixing it in d-c-s* might not be too hard at the cost of some efficiency when it sees that case, if it just builds a modified copy when needed and uses that with existing code
2021-05-04T21:01:55Z Nilby: |3b|: A long time ago I worked on a TTF rasterizer and there were a number of fixes for degenerate fonts in it, so I guess it's not uncommon. Maybe just make sure to compare the output against other rasterizers.
2021-05-04T21:02:57Z |3b|: Nilby: the font is valid as far as i can tell, it just confuses zpb-ttf
2021-05-04T21:03:28Z |3b|: the points before and after that point are on the curve, and the 3 points together make the desired shape
2021-05-04T21:03:29Z Xach: |3b|: hmm, i'm not really sure.
2021-05-04T21:05:14Z |3b|: hmm, slightly uglier than i thought to fix it that way in d-c-s/d-c-s* since code would have to be duplicated in both
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2021-05-04T21:08:50Z Nilby: Like lisp implemntations, I think font rasterizers sometimes have a hidden consensus of what to do with weird or unspecified input.
2021-05-04T21:09:51Z Xach: i bet there were certain buggy fonts you had to live with because they were common in the world
2021-05-04T21:09:52Z |3b|: in this case "make the curve go through a point that is specified to not be on the curve" is pretty obviously wrong :)
2021-05-04T21:09:55Z Xach: probably that has not changed much
2021-05-04T21:10:47Z |3b|: so more a question of library style than anything specific to fonts in general
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2021-05-04T21:11:48Z |3b|: the font is doing something i might not have expected, but that doesn't seem completely unreasonable having seen it
2021-05-04T21:12:07Z python476: I remember something about MS font handling code that could bring out the entire rendering stack
2021-05-04T21:12:19Z python476: but maybe that says more about MS design than ad-hoc ttf consensus
2021-05-04T21:12:39Z moon-child: microsoft's font renderer was a kernel module
2021-05-04T21:12:46Z moon-child: there's no world in which that's sensible
2021-05-04T21:13:41Z Xach: well, i have the luxury of not needing it to be interactively fast and fit in half a kilobyte and work with buggy files etc
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2021-05-04T21:30:29Z |3b|: hmm, i guess there probably isn't any requirement for there to actually be any explicit on-curve points, is there, so maybe trying to always start on the curve won't be completely correct either
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2021-05-04T22:58:05Z agumonkey: hi
2021-05-04T22:58:58Z klltkr: Hi agumonkey
2021-05-04T22:59:21Z agumonkey: hi klltkr
2021-05-04T22:59:27Z agumonkey: whats up on your side of the quote
2021-05-04T22:59:43Z klltkr: Nothin', just chillin', should go to bed
2021-05-04T22:59:53Z agumonkey: I could say the same
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2021-05-05T02:16:15Z nij: Hello #lisp! I'm trying to understand how CL extension got bootstrapped. One specific example I'm looking at is sbcl's timer. In CLHS, there's no timer; while in sbcl, there's timer. However, sbcl bootstraps itself.. but the support for timer must come somewhere. After digging into the repo, it seems that the magic is #'alien-funcall. However, I fail to dig more into it. Could someone explain or provide some hint - how are extension
2021-05-05T02:16:15Z nij: bootstrapped?
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2021-05-05T02:17:38Z Bike: it's not really a matter of bootstrapping. alien-funcall is an extension to call C ABI functions.
2021-05-05T02:17:51Z Bike: https://sbcl.sourceforge.io/manual/index.html#The-alien_002dfuncall-Primitive described here
2021-05-05T02:19:12Z nij: I see. Does CLHS have C ABI calling support?
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2021-05-05T02:19:41Z Bike: no, it's an extension.
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2021-05-05T02:20:23Z no-defun-allowed: SBCL doesn't use timers as part of bootstrapping, so it's perfectly reasonable.
2021-05-05T02:20:42Z nij: Right, Bike showed that it's C ABI calling that's more primitive.
2021-05-05T02:20:52Z nij: Hmm.. then how did SBCL add C ABI calling into it?
2021-05-05T02:21:07Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, once there is an SBCL compiler running, it can generate the code to ALIEN-FUNCALL.
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2021-05-05T02:21:23Z Bike: The compiler is written to translate alien-funcall into appropriate machine code
2021-05-05T02:23:06Z nij: Oh! Finally it makes sense. Thank you :D
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2021-05-05T02:24:53Z nij: Hmm.. just found out that bd threads on sbcl are just some alias of sb threads.. why should i use bd-threads then? For portability?
2021-05-05T02:25:20Z nij: If it's for portability, I still have to worry if bd thread is correctly implemented over other implementations..
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2021-05-05T02:26:05Z Bike: for portability, yes.
2021-05-05T02:26:21Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, Bordeaux-threads should be used for portability, and it is implemented correctly for any implementation I have used.
2021-05-05T02:26:22Z Bike: if you use sb threads you know that no other implementation implements them, sooooo
2021-05-05T02:27:12Z nij: Which is more responsible.. I'd say.
2021-05-05T02:27:38Z nij: Oh actually no. Those using other implementations should understand what bd gives them.
2021-05-05T02:27:40Z Bike: knowing it won't work at all is more responsible?
2021-05-05T02:28:06Z no-defun-allowed: If you want to argue that, the threading implementation in SBCL could be broken too. And then you'd have to fix up all your code to work on another implementation.
2021-05-05T02:28:06Z nij: I should only say that it's tested and designed for sbcl.. it might behave unexpectedly for other impls.
2021-05-05T02:28:29Z Bike: that's true of literally any code you write
2021-05-05T02:28:32Z nij: no-defun-allowed: you're right.
2021-05-05T02:28:44Z nij: Sin from abstraction!
2021-05-05T02:30:48Z nij: Is there any system-level timer abstraction? For sbcl we have its timer.. but while sb-threads are abstracted by bd-threads, sb-timers do not seem to be.
2021-05-05T02:31:28Z no-defun-allowed: Of course SB-THREAD would only work on SBCL, but (as I understand it) the Bordeaux thread protocol is derived from B.2 and B.3 of the CLIM specification (Multi-processing and Locks respectively).
2021-05-05T02:31:29Z Bike: there's a trivial-timer library
2021-05-05T02:32:26Z nij: Bike, does trivial-timer call system timer? Or it's an abstraction over bd-threads? Based on its dependency, I don't see how it calls system timers.
2021-05-05T02:32:33Z Bike: dunno
2021-05-05T02:32:37Z no-defun-allowed: I recall that handled ERROR strangely on Clozure, because it would fall back to creating a new thread which has none of the condition handlers set up.
2021-05-05T02:33:12Z no-defun-allowed: Oh, that was some time-out library, not timer.
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2021-05-05T02:35:59Z no-defun-allowed: nij: It uses SBCL's timers on SBCL, but falls back to a portable thread implementation.
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2021-05-05T02:36:38Z nij: Hmm.. for common lisp to "grow", we cannot alter the standard (ie those described by CLHS). Instead, we should implement them in new implementations. But then after a period of time, someone should come out and unify them, like bd-threads for threads.. right?
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2021-05-05T02:36:49Z nij: If this is the case, then where is CL moving toward?
2021-05-05T02:37:25Z nij: no-defun-allowed: If trivial-timer is portable, then what timers does it call on other implementations?
2021-05-05T02:37:55Z no-defun-allowed: nij: It uses another thread to run timer functions.
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2021-05-05T02:39:02Z nij: Oh.. so on sbcl it's sbcl's.. but on other implementations it abstracts over threads to make a timer.
2021-05-05T02:39:20Z nij: In particular, in the later case, it's not calling native system timers.
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2021-05-05T02:44:36Z nij: Hmm.. suppose I have a function (lambda () ...), how do I call it with all outputs redirected to some file?
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2021-05-05T02:46:42Z no-defun-allowed: (with-open-file (*standard-output* pathname :direction :output ...) (funcall function))
2021-05-05T02:55:35Z nij: Oh I see. The macro with-open-file changes *standard-output* locally. That makes sense.
2021-05-05T02:58:41Z Bike: of course if you output to some other stream that won't be redirected, but *standard-output* is the default output stream
2021-05-05T02:59:31Z nij: Make sense make sense! All the pieces are coming together tonight :-D
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2021-05-05T03:02:22Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-05-05T03:02:45Z nij: hi beach
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2021-05-05T03:23:54Z muyinliu_: cl-disruptor, a high performance inter-thread messaging library, a port of LMAX Disruptor in Common Lisp, https://github.com/muyinliu/cl-disruptor
2021-05-05T03:25:42Z Bike: oh ho, more atomics. have you seen shinmera's portability library?\
2021-05-05T03:26:05Z muyinliu_: Y
2021-05-05T03:26:34Z muyinliu_: different purpose
2021-05-05T03:27:06Z Bike: oh, i meant in relation to the cl-atomic thing there.
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2021-05-05T06:08:05Z phoe: good morning
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2021-05-05T06:09:36Z beach: Hello phoe.
2021-05-05T06:10:21Z beach: Today I'll try to figure out whether the problems with my sound have to do with the microphone or with OBS.
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2021-05-05T06:16:58Z phoe: OK - if you need any support, please let me know
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2021-05-05T06:22:20Z beach: Thanks.  I'll keep that in mind.
2021-05-05T06:24:53Z phoe: today is the worst day of the year
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2021-05-05T06:25:08Z phoe: maximum number of days until the next ELS
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2021-05-05T06:29:21Z flip214: phoe: it's not that bad, only 7½ months till winter solstice ;)
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2021-05-05T06:57:41Z beach: phoe: There is nothing wrong with my microphone.  I just used Audacity to record my voice and the sound is quite good.  So the problem is with OBS then.
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2021-05-05T06:59:25Z beach: I'll try OBS again, but holding the microphone closer....
2021-05-05T07:00:59Z easye: Morning all.  Is there a pure ANSI CL library someone might recommend to convert JSON to YAML?
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2021-05-05T07:20:20Z MichaelRaskin: easye: isn't JSON a subset of YAML in the first place?
2021-05-05T07:22:03Z easye: MichaelRaskin: moments ago I just learned this from p_l   Still digesting the various libraries.
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2021-05-05T07:22:34Z easye: My ultimate need is a JSON Schema validator in pure ANSI that works well for recursively defined schemas.
2021-05-05T07:23:20Z p_l: easye: there is a swagger implementation hiding somewhere on github in pure CL
2021-05-05T07:23:29Z p_l: it might have useful bits and pieces
2021-05-05T07:23:36Z easye: p_l: ACK  will review.
2021-05-05T07:23:50Z easye feels a blog post brewing here (eventually)
2021-05-05T07:24:12Z Lycurgus: in a related, is ANSI currently relevant to CL?
2021-05-05T07:24:30Z easye: Lycurgus: see the Monday panel from ELS2021 ;)
2021-05-05T07:24:42Z Lycurgus: is it online already?
2021-05-05T07:24:43Z p_l: easye: https://github.com/xh4/cube/blob/master/swagger.lisp
2021-05-05T07:24:55Z p_l: Lycurgus: as in ANSI CL? Yes
2021-05-05T07:25:09Z Lycurgus: no I meant the panel
2021-05-05T07:25:13Z easye: What I mean by ANSI CL is sort of a shorthand for saying "portable across contemporary ANSI CL implementations)
2021-05-05T07:25:32Z Lycurgus: also last I knew ANSI standards were priced
2021-05-05T07:25:38Z easye: Lycurgus: the full twitch stream is available, for which you have to seek to the right spot.
2021-05-05T07:26:04Z easye: The ad-hoc ELS tech crew will be editing it into bite-sized YouTube chunks as time permits.
2021-05-05T07:26:08Z Lycurgus: ah, thx for clarification
2021-05-05T07:27:13Z easye: <https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1009429697> at roughly 7h47m
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2021-05-05T07:28:07Z p_l: easye: btw, have you seen https://gitlab.com/Gnuxie/json-schema2/ ?
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2021-05-05T07:29:53Z easye: p_l: no, that looks like better code than cl-json-schema that is in Quicklisp
2021-05-05T07:29:56Z easye: Thanks!
2021-05-05T07:30:19Z p_l: easye: I believe it's second edition of cl-json-schema
2021-05-05T07:30:35Z easye: Ah, yes.  And using CLOS, which is quite reasonable.
2021-05-05T07:30:39Z easye: Thanks again.
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2021-05-05T08:07:55Z asarch: How would you remove entirely a SBCL that has been compiled/installed using the tarball from the project site?
2021-05-05T08:08:19Z asarch: I cannot find the "make uninstall" command
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2021-05-05T08:14:34Z flip214: asarch: run "install.sh" again and check which files are written to?
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2021-05-05T08:18:21Z asarch: Ok. Thank you
2021-05-05T08:18:28Z asarch: Thank you very much :-)
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2021-05-05T08:38:57Z zacts: hello #lisp
2021-05-05T08:47:03Z beach: Hello zacts.
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2021-05-05T09:57:23Z Shinmera: Our first Lisp game is now available for purchase on Steam! https://store.steampowered.com/app/1605720/Eternia_Pet_Whisperer/?beta=0
2021-05-05T09:57:48Z Shinmera: To my knowledge that's the first Lisp game on steam at all :)
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2021-05-05T10:06:11Z jdz: Shinmera: How's your collaboration with the publisher? :D
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2021-05-05T10:06:52Z Shinmera: My publisher is in pretty dire straits and needs more money
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2021-05-05T10:10:12Z heisig: Bought it.  Thanks Shinmera!
2021-05-05T10:10:24Z Shinmera: Thank you for your support! :D
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2021-05-05T10:13:54Z nij: Hello! I hope to launch a thread that should run indefinitely. It doesn't seem that there would be an unhandled case. But no one can be 100% on this, I think. So, what should I do for it to move on if it happens to have any conditions, and log every thing in the same time?
2021-05-05T10:15:07Z phoe: (loop (tagbody :continue (handler-bind ((error (lambda (c) (log-error c) (go :continue))) (do-thing)))
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2021-05-05T10:15:58Z phoe: Shinmera: bought it! thank you!
2021-05-05T10:16:05Z Shinmera: No, thank /you/!
2021-05-05T10:16:13Z phoe: No, thank //you//!
2021-05-05T10:16:18Z phoe: (let's hope this recursion terminates)
2021-05-05T10:16:20Z Shinmera: :)
2021-05-05T10:18:52Z flip214: wouldn't be a problem with tail calls... lifetime of the universe will stop most things eventually
2021-05-05T10:20:23Z ghard``: Shinmera: bought!
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2021-05-05T10:21:05Z Shinmera: Thanks!
2021-05-05T10:21:16Z nij: phoe: does that only handle errors? How about other unexpected condition?
2021-05-05T10:22:58Z phoe: nij: do you want to handle warnings?
2021-05-05T10:23:04Z phoe: via muffle-warning or something?
2021-05-05T10:23:14Z phoe: you can do that too
2021-05-05T10:23:23Z phoe: and why would you want to handle non-error non-warning conditions in bulk?
2021-05-05T10:23:35Z nij: I don't really know how many kinds of conditions are out there. I want to handle them.
2021-05-05T10:23:49Z phoe: why?
2021-05-05T10:23:51Z nij: The point is that I want them to run indefinitely, without my paying attention to it constantly.
2021-05-05T10:24:06Z phoe: I mean, why handle all conditions
2021-05-05T10:24:07Z nij: Maybe I can come back 6 months later, read the log, and fix the case.
2021-05-05T10:24:30Z nij: Because.. hmm.. iirc if some conditions aren't handled, the thread will pause there.
2021-05-05T10:24:43Z phoe: that is, errors
2021-05-05T10:25:11Z phoe: if a condition is passed to the ERROR function, which does SIGNAL and then INVOKE-DEBUGGER
2021-05-05T10:25:15Z phoe: the latter causes a pause
2021-05-05T10:25:21Z nij: Uh.. I must misunderstand something. Aren't errors in CL yet another condition, which is some object people can create?
2021-05-05T10:25:30Z phoe: they are
2021-05-05T10:25:30Z ghard``: shinmera: FYI it crashes on M1 mac mini
2021-05-05T10:25:49Z Shinmera: Oh dear. Well, I don't have the hardware to test that.
2021-05-05T10:25:57Z nij: phoe: only unhandled errors may pause the thread, but others conditions won't?
2021-05-05T10:26:02Z phoe: more or less
2021-05-05T10:26:04Z Shinmera: Can't say I'm surprised, though :/
2021-05-05T10:26:10Z nij: :|
2021-05-05T10:26:22Z ghard``: Indeed macOS is a spiky beast
2021-05-05T10:26:28Z phoe: unless someone does silly stuff like calling SIGNAL with an error condition that should not proceed with execution
2021-05-05T10:26:37Z phoe: or calling ERROR with a non-error condition, or calling INVOKE-DEBUGGER directly
2021-05-05T10:26:45Z phoe: but that's stuff that you shouldn't care about as a library user
2021-05-05T10:27:11Z phoe: so: yes, only unhandled errors can cause the thread to enter the debugger unless the code explicitly does something extraordinary
2021-05-05T10:27:20Z phoe: and that's most likely a bug if it does.
2021-05-05T10:27:25Z nij: I see..
2021-05-05T10:27:58Z nij: Maybe this is what I want - I want to suppress all debuggers and just let it logged. Is that possible?
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2021-05-05T10:28:00Z ghard``: not much useful info in the stack either
2021-05-05T10:28:21Z phoe: nij: instead of handler-bind, you can bind *debugger-hook*
2021-05-05T10:28:33Z phoe: to log the thing and then perform a non-local jump like via GO
2021-05-05T10:29:02Z phoe: would be slightly overkill, IMO, but would also work
2021-05-05T10:29:26Z nij: However, when a debugger is supposed to be on, usually it will present a list of options. Which option should I let my thread choose automatically in order to proceed?
2021-05-05T10:31:19Z phoe: none
2021-05-05T10:31:39Z phoe: if you tell your *debugger-hook* to perform a jump then you'll never enter the proper debugger
2021-05-05T10:31:45Z phoe: so you don't need to pick a restart
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2021-05-05T10:32:45Z nij: I see. Thanks :D I think I'm now ready to write a type called "service".
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2021-05-05T10:33:03Z nij: Before doing that, I just want to make sure it's not obviously done yet.. as I think it should be there already..
2021-05-05T10:33:28Z phoe: loop over tagbody over handler-bind should be enough
2021-05-05T10:33:38Z nij: So a service is just a wrapped function, which will be fired as a thread. But after it's fired, it must log every output to some file, and does the error handling stuff I say above.
2021-05-05T10:33:41Z phoe: alternatively loop over restart-case over handler-bind with invoke-restart
2021-05-05T10:34:01Z phoe: which is the same, just using the restart subsystem
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2021-05-05T10:41:47Z nij: Is there a "safe" thread, meaning a thread that completely logs all output, and skip (but log) any errors when it's running?
2021-05-05T10:41:57Z phoe: what do you mean, safe?
2021-05-05T10:42:24Z phoe: and what do you mean, "skip any errors"?
2021-05-05T10:43:15Z Shinmera: skipping errors by definition is not safe :)
2021-05-05T10:43:22Z nij: By a "safe" thread I mean a thread that does (1) all logging (2) all things I asked above automatically.
2021-05-05T10:44:00Z nij: I do intend for it to skip (but still be aware of, and log) any error it encounters.
2021-05-05T10:45:06Z phoe: what do you mean by skipping an error
2021-05-05T10:45:32Z nij: This ==> (loop (tagbody :continue (handler-bind ((error (lambda (c) (log-error c) (go :continue))) (do-thing)))
2021-05-05T10:46:14Z phoe: just spawn such a thread yourself then
2021-05-05T10:46:35Z phoe: and if an error is signaled, it'll log it and then jump back to the toplevel loop
2021-05-05T10:47:16Z nij: OK! I
2021-05-05T10:47:17Z _death: handler-case
2021-05-05T10:47:29Z nij: oops) am just double check that it hasn't been there. I will write my own.
2021-05-05T10:47:33Z phoe: _death: no
2021-05-05T10:47:39Z phoe: handler-case will destroy stacktrace information
2021-05-05T10:47:59Z phoe: by the time control reaches the handler there'll be no stacktrace to log anymore
2021-05-05T10:48:18Z flip214: handler-bind keeps the stack
2021-05-05T10:48:33Z _death: phoe: ok
2021-05-05T10:49:00Z phoe: there's a variant of handler-case that I described in one of the TCLCS appendices that executes the handler and only then unwinds, but it's not standard
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2021-05-05T11:24:20Z beach: Hello jnewton.
2021-05-05T11:24:26Z beach: Welcome to #lisp.
2021-05-05T11:24:29Z phoe: jnewton: gasp! finally!
2021-05-05T11:24:37Z jnewton: hello
2021-05-05T11:24:40Z phoe: after all the years you're here
2021-05-05T11:24:41Z phoe: hello :D
2021-05-05T11:25:32Z heisig: Hi jnewton!
2021-05-05T11:26:02Z Xach: jnewton is ici
2021-05-05T11:26:12Z phoe: ici?
2021-05-05T11:26:22Z phoe: minion: what does ici mean?
2021-05-05T11:26:23Z minion: Indubitable Collectivism Inburnt
2021-05-05T11:26:33Z phoe thinks
2021-05-05T11:26:35Z jnewton: ici is french for here
2021-05-05T11:26:41Z phoe: oooh, thanks
2021-05-05T11:27:37Z beach: I am responsible for convincing jnewton to try IRC.
2021-05-05T11:27:47Z beach hopes he won't regret it.
2021-05-05T11:27:56Z jnewton: I have a few ideas about ELS 2022.  hope not to right the boat too much.
2021-05-05T11:28:11Z jackdaniel: hey o/
2021-05-05T11:28:23Z beach: I am off for a lunch break.  Have a nice discussion.
2021-05-05T11:29:14Z phoe: beach: :D
2021-05-05T11:30:52Z flip214: jnewton: yeah, better to have left it early before it goes down under ;)
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2021-05-05T11:53:17Z jnewton: join #els2021
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2021-05-05T11:54:55Z jdz would expect either #elsconf or #els2022
2021-05-05T11:55:05Z jdz: But what do I know.
2021-05-05T11:55:06Z phoe: we haven't created the latter yet
2021-05-05T11:55:16Z phoe: and the former has all the people who organized els2021
2021-05-05T11:55:27Z jdz: Oh, the secret club.
2021-05-05T11:55:33Z phoe: yes
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2021-05-05T12:28:43Z beach: jnewton: Here is the link to the document about a Lisp OS that I mentioned on the phone: http://metamodular.com/closos.pdf
2021-05-05T12:31:15Z beach: scymtym: Do you have a link to documentation for Eclector?
2021-05-05T12:31:41Z scymtym: beach: https://s-expressionists.github.io/Eclector/
2021-05-05T12:32:07Z beach: jnewton: That link is for you as well.
2021-05-05T12:32:13Z beach: scymtym: Thanks!
2021-05-05T12:32:22Z scymtym: sure
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2021-05-05T12:48:10Z pjb: nij: if log error doesn't use implementation specific API to collect and report the backtrace, then you can use handler-case instead of handler-bind. (loop (handler-case  (do-thing) ((error (c) (log-error c)))))
2021-05-05T12:48:41Z pjb: Sorry: (loop (handler-case  (do-thing) (error (c) (log-error c))))
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2021-05-05T12:54:01Z kali123: salutare
2021-05-05T12:54:29Z nij: Is there a tiny project that uses CFFI? I'm new to it and hope to see it working in action. Thanks :)
2021-05-05T12:54:42Z nij: pjb:  thanks:)
2021-05-05T12:54:54Z kali123: saluatre
2021-05-05T12:55:01Z semz: nij: CFFI's manual has a tutorial project that fits this description
2021-05-05T12:55:32Z pjb: nij: https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/tree/master/clext/pkcs11 might be an example.
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2021-05-05T12:55:54Z semz: I wish the reference part of the manual was more comprehensive...
2021-05-05T12:56:21Z pjb: nij: it wraps a pkcs11 library in a low-level lisp package and a high-level lisp package, which is rather a classic way to do it.
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2021-05-05T12:56:59Z pjb: nij: pcks11-cffi gives the low-level wrapping (contains the defcfun declarations, etc.
2021-05-05T12:57:36Z pjb: nij: and pcks11.lisp wraps the low-level C function calls in lisp calls, processing error handling and parameter conversions, etc.
2021-05-05T12:57:50Z pjb: type checking.
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2021-05-05T12:59:09Z pjb: nij: notably, when you have a library with a consistent API, you can write macros to perform the work in a consistent way, so wrapping over is easy: https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/blob/master/clext/pkcs11/pkcs11.lisp#L2011
2021-05-05T13:00:12Z pjb: nij: an example of usage of this library is in https://github.com/informatimago/scquery (sources-cl, not sources, which contains the C version).
2021-05-05T13:00:27Z beach: Hello kali123.
2021-05-05T13:00:58Z nij: pjb: Wow seems cool! (but a bit complicated)
2021-05-05T13:01:18Z pjb: The complication is only in the subject library really.
2021-05-05T13:01:25Z beach: kali123: Are you new here?  I don't recognize your nick.
2021-05-05T13:01:25Z kali123: hello all :D
2021-05-05T13:01:32Z kali123: how are you ?
2021-05-05T13:01:47Z kali123: how change nick ?
2021-05-05T13:01:49Z pjb: nij: I guess we could give a hello world example, but this wouldn't teach you anything more than the cffi manual.
2021-05-05T13:01:57Z beach: kali123: /nick ...
2021-05-05T13:02:07Z kali123: ok?
2021-05-05T13:02:27Z kali123: nick
2021-05-05T13:02:36Z kali123: no change ..this command not good
2021-05-05T13:02:49Z beach: First a slash then the word `nick'  then the new nick you like.
2021-05-05T13:03:02Z nij: semz you mean this? https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/cffi-manual.html#Tutorial
2021-05-05T13:03:22Z semz: yes
2021-05-05T13:03:24Z beach: kali123: Like: /nick my-new-nick and be sure the slash is the first character on the line.
2021-05-05T13:03:28Z nij: I found cffi hard to grok.. maybe it's due to my lack of grasp of C..
2021-05-05T13:03:47Z kali123: :P
2021-05-05T13:04:10Z beach: nij: I strongly recommend you use Common Lisp exclusively if you possibly can.  Using FFI makes everything much harder.
2021-05-05T13:04:31Z kali123: pff
2021-05-05T13:04:36Z kali123: no change :(
2021-05-05T13:05:01Z splittist: nij: how is asking questions about it on irc going to help you? I usually find trying things out - and with lisp that's usually very easy - much more likely to illuminate the particular areas of ignorance I want to address.
2021-05-05T13:05:54Z pjb: nij: what didn't you understand in cffi?
2021-05-05T13:07:17Z nij: splittist: I never know. Sometimes on some topics there will be super helpful advises. Sometimes no..
2021-05-05T13:07:49Z pjb: nij: for example, there's a clock() -> long (actually clock_t but it's a long) function in libc. (cffi:defcfun (clock "clock") :long) #| --> clock |# (clock) #| --> 147584979 |# (- (clock) (progn (sleep 1) (clock))) #| --> -110 |#
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2021-05-05T13:08:10Z kali123: 😎️
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2021-05-05T13:09:46Z NO_Name: 🤩️
2021-05-05T13:10:14Z nij: pjb: why wouldn't the answer be -60, but -110?
2021-05-05T13:10:14Z pjb: nij: another example, always in libc, there's a int chmod(const char*path,int mode) function: (cffi:defcfun (change-file-mode "chmod") :int (path :string) (mode :int)) (change-file-mode "/tmp/foo.c" #o444) #| --> 0 |# ls -l /tmp/foo.c # --> -r--r--r--  1 pjb  wheel  29 May  4 05:08 /tmp/foo.c
2021-05-05T13:10:14Z pjb:  
2021-05-05T13:10:21Z pjb: nij: overhead.
2021-05-05T13:10:23Z nij: I tried it and it utters different value everytime.
2021-05-05T13:10:41Z pjb: nij: and it depends on the value of the C macro: CLOCKS_PER_SEC
2021-05-05T13:11:28Z pjb: So you would have to read the C header  file, or write a little C function to get it:  #include <time.h>  long clocks_per_sec(){return CLOCKS_PER_SEC;}   and use cffi to call it.
2021-05-05T13:12:18Z pjb: nij: C APIs are often not designed to be used in foreign code, so they use things like C macros and other stuff that goes thru difficultly.  You may have to write some C portability code sometimes.
2021-05-05T13:13:09Z pjb: nij: of course, there are more complex cases, eg. out or inout parameters. Then you may have to allocate temporary storage for them, and convert the data.  See the pcks11 example for that.
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2021-05-05T13:13:34Z nij: How about when the output of a C function are some strange structures?
2021-05-05T13:13:56Z pjb: nij: you can declare structures in cffi too.
2021-05-05T13:13:58Z nij: In the first example you gave, the output was an integer, which is easy to translate to Lisp.
2021-05-05T13:14:20Z pjb: nij: but there are special cases. For example, macOS uses some structures with #pragma packed , and cffi doesn't deal with that.
2021-05-05T13:14:36Z nij: I see. Say I'm using a function in some C library, I need to translate the structures defined in that C library by myself?
2021-05-05T13:14:43Z pjb: nij: so I find it easier and safer, to refer structures are mere memory blocks, and specify the offsets to the fields myself.
2021-05-05T13:15:19Z nij: I see. Thank you so much!
2021-05-05T13:16:02Z Nilby: defcstruct
2021-05-05T13:16:03Z pjb: nij: an example with defcstruct forms: https://gitlab.com/patchwork/CoreMIDI/-/blob/master/coremidi-cffi.lisp
2021-05-05T13:16:50Z pjb: nij: note: this file was generated by swig.
2021-05-05T13:17:37Z pjb: and see: https://gitlab.com/patchwork/CoreMIDI/-/blob/master/coremidi-midi.lisp#L132
2021-05-05T13:17:41Z nij: Nilby: yeah. but most of the time I must translate the structures in to Lisp by using defcstruct, right?
2021-05-05T13:20:22Z Nilby: nij: You don't have to translate. But it depends how you want to use them. If you want to use them conveniently in Lisp code that doesn't use CFFI, then yes. Usually one would provide a higher level interface to C code.
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2021-05-05T13:21:28Z nij: Nilby: I see. Thanks :)
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2021-05-05T13:23:09Z pjb: It depends on the C API really.  Sometimes, they use complex structures to be created by the client code, then it's more convenient to do that in lisp, and provide code to convert between lisp an C structures.  Sometimes they use function calls to manipulate an internal state, and then it is easier, you just have to deal with the functions.
2021-05-05T13:23:58Z pjb: void* make_point(); void point_set_x(void* pt,int x); void point_set_y(void* pt,int y);  int point_x(void* pt); int point_y(void* pt);
2021-05-05T13:24:46Z pjb: vs. typedef struct point {int x,y; } point_t; point_t* make_point();  void use_point(point_t* pt);
2021-05-05T13:25:22Z pjb: using point_set_x is simplier from a FFI point of view than having to know how the struct point is laid out, and how to store or read it.
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2021-05-05T13:26:23Z pjb: Also, in terms of API, when the structure point evolves (they may add fields, or want to reorder them), code using point_set_x will always work, while code setting directly a structure may become incompatible.
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2021-05-05T14:09:44Z jmercouris: so I have in my compiled image a REPL exposed
2021-05-05T14:09:55Z jmercouris: and I did (asdf:load-asd "/home/jmercouris/Source/Lisp/some.asd")
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2021-05-05T14:10:06Z jmercouris: then I did (asdf:load-system :some-system) which was defined in some.asd
2021-05-05T14:10:21Z jmercouris: however, this forces recompilation of systems on disk which are in NOT writable directories
2021-05-05T14:10:31Z jmercouris: looking through the documentation I found *immutable-systems*
2021-05-05T14:10:33Z jmercouris: so I figured, OK
2021-05-05T14:10:37Z jmercouris: (map () 'asdf:register-immutable-system (asdf:already-loaded-systems))
2021-05-05T14:10:45Z jmercouris: however, it doesn't seem to respect this
2021-05-05T14:10:54Z jmercouris: and when I go to (asdf:load-system :some-system) it AGAIN tries to recompile
2021-05-05T14:10:56Z jackdaniel: you want to mark them as preloaded
2021-05-05T14:10:59Z jackdaniel: not as immutable
2021-05-05T14:11:09Z jackdaniel: (after loading them of course)
2021-05-05T14:11:15Z jmercouris: is there a register-preloaded?
2021-05-05T14:11:33Z jmercouris: it seems there is
2021-05-05T14:11:38Z jmercouris: 'register-preloaded-system'
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2021-05-05T14:11:58Z jmercouris: (map () 'asdf:register-preloaded-system (asdf:already-loaded-systems))
2021-05-05T14:12:00Z jmercouris: let me try that
2021-05-05T14:12:24Z jmercouris: hm, it is still trying to compile things
2021-05-05T14:12:46Z jmercouris: http://dpaste.com/ACJQNDRLB
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2021-05-05T14:15:14Z jackdaniel: you may want to try harder to provide a reproducible test case; ("foo" "bar") is indeed an illegal function call
2021-05-05T14:15:28Z jmercouris: It sure is, but notice that it found that in a ASD
2021-05-05T14:15:53Z jmercouris: it doesn't matter *what* I try to load
2021-05-05T14:15:58Z jmercouris: it is always failing on trying to recompile cl-containers
2021-05-05T14:16:01Z jackdaniel: asdf claims that it does some magic parsing of asd files, but it in reality reads them
2021-05-05T14:16:16Z jackdaniel: s/reads/loads/
2021-05-05T14:16:34Z jackdaniel: with a package bound to asdf-user preasumbly
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2021-05-05T14:18:24Z jmercouris: who knows
2021-05-05T14:18:48Z jackdaniel: it is easy to find out so probably someone does. /me goes afk
2021-05-05T14:19:26Z Nilby: I've been living with the same problem for years. It's especially trouble when your not in control of the filesystem or quicklisp setup for the resulting images, and the REPL user may _want_ to reload some systems. I figured someday I would force asdf to do what I want.
2021-05-05T14:22:27Z jmercouris: I'll try marking things before I dump the image
2021-05-05T14:22:30Z jmercouris: I don't think that will matter
2021-05-05T14:22:32Z jmercouris: but, maybe it does
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2021-05-05T14:27:55Z delta: Hello! I am trying to spawn multiple infinite-running processes and then, at an input from a user, send sigint to all of those processes and then exit the program. Can I get some help? I've found inferior-shell to launch processes and bordeaux-threads to make threads, but I'm not sure how to achieve exactly what I want.
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2021-05-05T14:30:16Z beach: delta: Bordeaux threads will not create Unix processes.  Only threads.
2021-05-05T14:31:08Z beach: delta: Presumably, to fork a process from a Common Lisp image, you would need to use some implementation-specific function, like the POSIX interface of SBCL.
2021-05-05T14:31:27Z delta: Right, but I can make a thread and then spawn a process from that thread using inferior-shell, right?
2021-05-05T14:31:58Z delta: Perhaps I'm getting myself turned around and should move back to square one and just spawn a regular unix process.
2021-05-05T14:32:16Z beach: I don't know what inferior-shell is.  Sorry.  You would typically have a Common Lisp REPL, and you don't have to create a thread from there to fork a process.
2021-05-05T14:32:52Z beach: So you are not trying to "spawn a regular unix process"?  What other kinds of processes are there?
2021-05-05T14:33:18Z beach: What we today call "threads" used to be called "processes" in the Lisp world.
2021-05-05T14:33:32Z beach: If threads are what you want, then Bordeaux threads can do it.
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2021-05-05T14:34:40Z delta: inferior-shell is just a library I found from googling how to run a shell command basically. I am trying to spawn a regular unix process, I'm just trying to execute an infinitely running process and interrupt it when I choose to. I think I reached for Bordeaux too quickly because it seems to be the de facto multiprocessing thing, but really what I wanted all a long was to just fork and store the PID to eventually send SIGINT to.
2021-05-05T14:35:48Z delta: TIL about "threads" and "processes" also :) thanks
2021-05-05T14:35:57Z beach: I see no reason to use a shell at all.  You should be able to use the implementation-specific POSIX system to fork the Common Lisp process itself.
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2021-05-05T14:36:58Z delta: Oh, gotcha. Great. Thank you!
2021-05-05T14:37:13Z beach: Sure.  Or maybe IUOP has something that will work for you.
2021-05-05T14:37:21Z beach: Try (apropos "process") to the REPL.
2021-05-05T14:37:31Z Nilby: With sbcl you can use run-program with :wait nil which usually puts them in the background, save the process-pid, and then call sb-posix:kill on them
2021-05-05T14:38:14Z jmercouris: is there a way to override the value of a constant?
2021-05-05T14:38:24Z delta: Wonderful! I think I've found what I needed with UIOP. Thank you all!
2021-05-05T14:38:24Z jmercouris: I used (alexandria:define-constant ..) and now I want to override it in the REPL
2021-05-05T14:38:25Z jmercouris: is it possible?
2021-05-05T14:38:58Z Bike: you want to set it to an actually different value? your implementation might offer a restart for it
2021-05-05T14:39:16Z Bike: redefining a constant is dicey because the compiler might be using the value, i.e. previously compiled code referencing the constant will still be using the old value
2021-05-05T14:39:23Z jmercouris: SBCL seemingly does not offer this
2021-05-05T14:39:49Z Bike: sure it does, it's the continue restart
2021-05-05T14:40:21Z Bike: it looks like with alexandria:define-constant you'll need to continue twice
2021-05-05T14:40:26Z Bike: once for alexandria and once for sbcl
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2021-05-05T14:40:55Z jmercouris: I tried (setf constant 123) and it just says "retry" or ignore
2021-05-05T14:40:59Z jmercouris: it's OK, I will change it
2021-05-05T14:41:06Z Bike: oh, i mean, you have to do another defconstant
2021-05-05T14:41:08Z jmercouris: thanks anyways Bike
2021-05-05T14:41:14Z jmercouris: Ah... that's something else
2021-05-05T14:41:16Z Bike: (defconstant +foo+ 3) (defconstant +foo+ 5)
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2021-05-05T14:42:31Z jmercouris: ah, that has worked
2021-05-05T14:43:56Z jmercouris: thank you
2021-05-05T14:44:38Z Bike: no problem
2021-05-05T14:45:18Z Nilby: I seem to end up using the constant changing restart a lot. It doesn't always work. Worse, if you save images a lot it's possible to multiple generations of different wrong constants.
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2021-05-05T14:52:56Z pjb: why use a constant if it's a variable?
2021-05-05T14:54:16Z pjb: π, e, c are constants. (note PI, E and C are not, in implementations when the size of long-floats can be changed at run-time ;-))
2021-05-05T14:54:51Z pjb: ASCII:BEL #| --> 7 |# is a constant, ok.    But little else is.
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2021-05-05T15:03:31Z Nilby: There's only a few standard Lisp character names, so I was surprised when one day instead of beeping I saw:  🔔
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2021-05-05T15:11:39Z jnewton: I heard someone (don't remember who) that someone (don't remember who) claimed to be working on a Common Lisp like condition system in Python.   Who said it and who said it?
2021-05-05T15:12:01Z easye: Kent Pitman!
2021-05-05T15:12:13Z jnewton: ahhhh, I was thinking Kenny Tilton.
2021-05-05T15:12:26Z easye: (to be featured in an Online Lisp Meeting soonish)
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2021-05-05T15:12:34Z jackdaniel: quite a leap from "don't remember who" to "you know who" ,)
2021-05-05T15:13:13Z beach: But who was the one he heard?  phoe maybe?
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2021-05-05T15:15:33Z beach: jnewton: Are you also aware that phoe gave a presentation to the Webassembly people concerning the control structures that are needed for a condition system?
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2021-05-05T15:18:05Z jnewton: @beach, no but I recently realized that I don't understand the condition system when trying to figure out how to implement it in Scala.    I wanted to have something in Scala to present to Scala experts to demonstrate why there are important exceptional situations other than Errors.
2021-05-05T15:18:37Z beach: Did you read phoe's book on the topic?
2021-05-05T15:18:55Z jnewton: I didn't know that such a book exists.
2021-05-05T15:19:14Z beach: *sigh* that's what you get for being absent from IRC.
2021-05-05T15:19:28Z agumonkey: jnewton: was it at the lib level or reworking the interpreter/bytecode ?
2021-05-05T15:19:59Z jnewton: lib level.
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2021-05-05T15:20:21Z beach: jnewton: The book is called "The Common Lisp Condition System" and it's on Apress.
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2021-05-05T15:20:30Z nij: *sigh* I'm on IRC but still haven't read phoe's wonderful book.
2021-05-05T15:20:49Z nij should be kicked out.
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2021-05-05T15:20:57Z beach: nij: But at least you are aware of its existence, and that you need to read it.
2021-05-05T15:21:23Z beach: Does anyone have a link for phoe's book?
2021-05-05T15:21:40Z agumonkey: phoe recently said he might rewrite it a bit (after some voices saying the style needed work)
2021-05-05T15:21:48Z jnewton: I saw an announcement for the CL algorithms book, but I've never seen an announcement for the Condition System book.   I sense that keeping it a secret on IRC is counterproductive
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2021-05-05T15:22:14Z MetaYan_: nick MetaYan
2021-05-05T15:22:21Z MetaYan_: sorry
2021-05-05T15:22:28Z agumonkey: it's been mentioned on a few big sites (hn, reddit) IIRC
2021-05-05T15:22:36Z agumonkey: but i may be hallucinating
2021-05-05T15:22:47Z beach: jnewton: It is easy (but unproductive) for IRC-ers to assume that when it has been announced here, everybody knows it.
2021-05-05T15:23:34Z jnewton: :-)
2021-05-05T15:23:43Z jnewton: how can I like a message on IRC?
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2021-05-05T15:24:11Z jackdaniel: beach: your friendly neighborhood moderator looked it up for you on the vast internet: https://www.apress.com/gp/book/9781484261330
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2021-05-05T15:24:29Z jnewton: also, and can I edit a message which has already been sent?
2021-05-05T15:24:47Z beach: jackdaniel: You beat me to it.  Thanks!
2021-05-05T15:24:54Z jackdaniel: jnewton: that's not how real conversations work, is it? :) no, it is not slack, no time travel nor annotations of past messages
2021-05-05T15:25:01Z jnewton: @beach:  I found the book on amazon. and apparently there's also a new lisp blockchain book.
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2021-05-05T15:25:22Z beach: I see.
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2021-05-05T15:25:49Z jnewton: @phoe, do you recommend I buy the book or wait for the 2nd edition?
2021-05-05T15:25:51Z beach: jnewton: The @ convention is not used on IRC, just type the nick of the person (using completion) followed by `:'.
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2021-05-05T15:26:22Z beach: jnewton: Get both.  I am sure you can get your employer to pay.
2021-05-05T15:28:03Z beach: phoe is a busy person, and he has other projects too.
2021-05-05T15:28:07Z jnewton: is there enough info in the book to implement the condition system in a JVM hosted language?  If so, it could be really practical.
2021-05-05T15:28:48Z jnewton: BTW   congratulations phoe: on your book release
2021-05-05T15:29:01Z beach: Pretty sure all the information is there.
2021-05-05T15:29:14Z jnewton: beach:  have you read it yet?
2021-05-05T15:29:21Z beach: Partly.
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2021-05-05T15:30:58Z jnewton: is there a way to make the condition system work with lazily evaluated code?  I.e., you might define an anonymous function within a certain stackframe, but when the function is called, the stackframe is long gone.   This is one of the problems with dynamic variables and also of exception handling in both Scala and Clojure.
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2021-05-05T15:33:59Z Odin-: Huh. I was not aware of that book, which is nevertheless very much within my field of interest.
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2021-05-05T15:37:41Z beach: jnewton: You are right, the dynamic environment is then long gone.
2021-05-05T15:39:00Z loli: phoe's book is very nice
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2021-05-05T15:52:24Z agumonkey: not sure it's right what you asked for jnewton but https://github.com/IGJoshua/farolero is a condition system for clojure
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2021-05-05T15:56:57Z srandon111: people anyone know why sbcl on netbsd is not threaded ?
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2021-05-05T15:57:39Z nij: threaded?
2021-05-05T15:57:57Z jnewton: as I understand agumonkey, there are many conditions systems for clojure, many of which are inspired by CL.  The problem (as I understand) is they are not compatible with each other, therefore no library wants to use one.  If Library A used one, then the user might also include library B which uses a different one.
2021-05-05T15:58:04Z jackdaniel: srandon111: maybe they don't truthfully implement the posix threads api?
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2021-05-05T15:58:11Z Nilby: srandon111: I don't know, but I do have lots of other trouble running sbcl on netbsd.
2021-05-05T15:58:15Z beach: nij: I think srandon111 means "allows multiple threads"
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2021-05-05T15:58:21Z Nilby: Java has throw and catch, which is really all that's required. CL style conditions have to be able to be sometimes handled before the throw, which is of course possible, just not what Java usually does.
2021-05-05T15:58:52Z jnewton: nilby:  aren't dynamic variables also necessary?
2021-05-05T15:59:28Z nij: NiJ: oh oh
2021-05-05T15:59:48Z beach: jnewton: They can kind of be implemented using unwind-protect.
2021-05-05T15:59:57Z beach: At least in the single-thread case.
2021-05-05T16:00:02Z Nilby: They help, but you could simulate them with global variables, or any variables if need be.
2021-05-05T16:00:15Z jnewton: nilby:  you need to somehow be able to look up the stack to find handlers and restarts.
2021-05-05T16:00:46Z beach: jnewton: You use a global variable to simulate shallow binding.
2021-05-05T16:00:52Z Nilby: Java has some stack introspection ability.
2021-05-05T16:01:11Z jackdaniel: perhaps you could use threadlocal variables to simulate dynamic variables
2021-05-05T16:01:13Z jnewton: There is a Scala class called DynamicVariable which uses sort of an unwind-protect mechansims.  the variables are lexical, so you can only reference them within a scope where it is lexically visible, but the value is dynamic.
2021-05-05T16:01:21Z jackdaniel: (global thread local variables that is)
2021-05-05T16:02:02Z beach: jnewton: When you want to bind a dynamic variable, you assign its value to a lexical one and then you modify the global value.
2021-05-05T16:02:05Z jnewton: There are two reasons I wanted to implement it. 1. because I'd like to show it to other Scala programmers.  and 2. because implementing it would make me understand it.
2021-05-05T16:02:11Z beach: That way, you can access it anywhere.
2021-05-05T16:03:02Z beach: It doesn't work so well for implementing the full semantics of Common Lisp dynamic variables in the presence of threads.
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2021-05-05T16:04:49Z Nilby: Even if you just have catch and throw, unwind-protect is just like a todo list before you throw or after normal return.
2021-05-05T16:05:56Z White_Flame: beach: or modify the thread-local one on write, and on read check if the thread-local one is unbound (some unique default singleton) and read the global value if it is
2021-05-05T16:06:03Z jnewton: The reason I stopped was because I didn't know what type all the objects needed to be.  You need to somehow do it so the code is well typed.  the task was beyond my capacity at the time.   I'd on my list of things to revisit.
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2021-05-05T16:06:31Z White_Flame: s/write/bind/
2021-05-05T16:06:35Z beach: White_Flame: That might work.
2021-05-05T16:06:43Z White_Flame: that's SBCL's asm-level implementation
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2021-05-05T16:07:15Z White_Flame: although it probably does the TLS slot allocation at compile-time
2021-05-05T16:07:25Z beach: White_Flame: I kind of designed the SBCL technique. :)
2021-05-05T16:07:31Z White_Flame: heh
2021-05-05T16:07:41Z agumonkey: jnewton: subtle issue indee
2021-05-05T16:07:43Z agumonkey: d*
2021-05-05T16:07:49Z beach: White_Flame: Dan Barlow and I worked it out at LSM/RMLL in 2000 or 2001 or so.
2021-05-05T16:07:51Z White_Flame: well then, it should be quite self-explanatory! ;)
2021-05-05T16:08:45Z White_Flame: and of course another wrinkle in java would be the unwind mechanics around the binding scope
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2021-05-05T16:08:54Z White_Flame: but that's basic try/finally
2021-05-05T16:08:57Z beach: The LSM/RMLL meetings are also the reason for the name Bordeaux thread.
2021-05-05T16:09:01Z beach: threads.
2021-05-05T16:11:35Z beach: And I don't know why Krystof said "almost 20 years".  I am pretty sure he was there in 2000, which would make it 21 years this year.
2021-05-05T16:12:10Z jackdaniel: there are people who think that 2000 was 10y ago ,)
2021-05-05T16:12:22Z White_Flame: there are people who think the 1980s were 20y ago :-P
2021-05-05T16:12:25Z jackdaniel: think is the wrong word
2021-05-05T16:12:27Z jackdaniel: "feel"
2021-05-05T16:12:53Z beach: Ah, the "fast" thinking module, unable to do math. :)
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2021-05-05T16:13:28Z Odin-: beach: Cache invalidation is tricky.
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2021-05-05T16:13:41Z beach: Indeed.
2021-05-05T16:14:10Z White_Flame: but anyway, given java's thread local storage, is there any material difference to SBCL's strategy in implementing special variable bindings?
2021-05-05T16:14:29Z jackdaniel: cache invalidatation and off by one errors are three of the hardest problems in programming
2021-05-05T16:15:23Z Odin- thought there were only two hard problems: Naming things, cache invalidation and off-by-one errors.
2021-05-05T16:15:44Z beach: jackdaniel: Heh.
2021-05-05T16:16:51Z jnewton: beach:   I don't find irc intuitive. Do I need to give it more time to sink in?
2021-05-05T16:16:56Z nij: Without reading phoe's book.. here am I asking a dumb question directly. I intend to let the error be echoed (using format) without triggering the debugger. But that's not the case. Why? https://bpa.st/6ZGQ
2021-05-05T16:18:11Z jackdaniel: nij: handler-bind allows you to do things in a dynamic context of the error and carry on with handling the error
2021-05-05T16:18:47Z Odin-: jnewton: You could think of it as an ephemeral shared append-only text file, rather than as similar to the modern bells-and-whistles systems.
2021-05-05T16:18:52Z nij: It didn't carry on, but instead inboke a debugger..
2021-05-05T16:18:57Z jackdaniel: basically to continue after the error you must wrap each place so the program knows where to resume
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2021-05-05T16:19:05Z jackdaniel: carry on is invoking the debugger in this case
2021-05-05T16:19:30Z beach: jnewton: Probably.  It might be a bit overwhelming when there are multiple discussion threads going on simultaneously.
2021-05-05T16:19:40Z nij: Hmm.. what should I do for it to proceed without debugger, but report any info that a debugger would provide?
2021-05-05T16:20:14Z jackdaniel: (progn (handler-case (/ 1 0) (serious-condition (c) (Print c)) (print "after!"))
2021-05-05T16:20:22Z jackdaniel: well, that's not right
2021-05-05T16:20:31Z jackdaniel: because the stack is unwound in your handler
2021-05-05T16:20:34Z beach: jnewton: Oh, and one more important thing.  You quickly learn what people are likely to say things you are interested in, and what people you can safely ignore.
2021-05-05T16:20:38Z Odin-: nij: 'error' invokes the debugger if the handler doesn't perform a non-local exit.
2021-05-05T16:21:08Z Odin- is mostly in that second category.
2021-05-05T16:21:11Z jackdaniel: (progn (block hi! (handler-bind … (lambda (c) (print c) (return-from hi!)))) (print "bye")
2021-05-05T16:21:17Z Nilby can be safely ignored.
2021-05-05T16:21:24Z nij is too.. probably the third.
2021-05-05T16:21:54Z jackdaniel: I'm one of the noise generators ,-)
2021-05-05T16:22:14Z jackdaniel: nij: you could have a macro that wraps each form in the body in such handler-bind, but it doesn't make much sense
2021-05-05T16:22:37Z jackdaniel: because when your form errors then it means, that your program basically doesn't work and requires special attention
2021-05-05T16:26:06Z nij: Oh finally, jackdaniel, I got something working. Thanks!'
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2021-05-05T16:26:16Z nij: => (progn (block hi! (handler-bind ((error (lambda (c) (print c) (return-from hi!)))) (/ 1 0))) (print "bye"))
2021-05-05T16:27:21Z jackdaniel: sure
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2021-05-05T16:27:56Z Odin-: If you want to _generally_ just print the condition object and carry on, couldn't you intercept the debugger entry?
2021-05-05T16:28:18Z nij: Odin-:  what do you mean by intercepting the deb entry?
2021-05-05T16:28:47Z Odin-: *debugger-hook*
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2021-05-05T16:28:57Z Odin-: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/v_debugg.htm
2021-05-05T16:29:07Z Odin- had to look it up, hasn't used it...
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2021-05-05T16:30:53Z jackdaniel: Odin-: and how exactly do you return to the place "after" the form?
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2021-05-05T16:31:54Z Odin-: jackdaniel: Oh, right. Me being silly, ignore.
2021-05-05T16:31:59Z nij: Odin-: I dunno how to hack *debugger-hook*..
2021-05-05T16:33:18Z jackdaniel: (defmacro with-foolhardy-forms (&body body) `(let ((*debugger-hook* (lambda (c s) (print c s) (throw :foo)))) ,@(loop for form in body collect `(catch :foo ,form))))
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2021-05-05T16:33:29Z Nilby: Just please don't mess with the global value of the *debugger-hook* or you could disble people's debuggers.
2021-05-05T16:33:57Z nij: Sounds worse than having a global warming.
2021-05-05T16:34:20Z nij: Hmm.. now suppose my main body is (repeat 3 (/ 1 0)).
2021-05-05T16:34:30Z pjb: nij: https://termbin.com/yvbs
2021-05-05T16:34:40Z nij: I want that to be executed 3 times, each time barfing the error.. what should I do?
2021-05-05T16:34:56Z nij: With the code above, it throws me out of hi! immediately after the first error.
2021-05-05T16:35:14Z pjb: (defmacro repeat (n &body body) `(loop :repeat ,n :do (ignore-errors (progn ,@body))))
2021-05-05T16:35:27Z pjb: (repeat 3 (/ 0)) #| --> nil |#
2021-05-05T16:35:58Z nij: pjb: but I want the debugger message to be output somewhere.
2021-05-05T16:36:10Z nij: ignore-errors throw everything away
2021-05-05T16:36:10Z pjb: nij: if log error doesn't use implementation specific API to collect and report the backtrace, then you can use handler-case instead of handler-bind.  (loop (handler-case  (do-thing) (error (c) (log-error c))))
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2021-05-05T16:36:45Z pjb: (defmacro repeat (n &body body) `(loop :repeat ,n :do (handler-case (progn ,@body) (error (err) (princ err *error-output*) (terpri *error-output*)))))
2021-05-05T16:36:49Z nij: I have the impression that handler-case is more general and could capture more error message.. is that correct?
2021-05-05T16:36:58Z nij: And thus I was trying to use handler-bind.
2021-05-05T16:37:12Z pjb: (repeat 3 (/ 0)) #| --> nil |#  with division-by-zero detected performing / on (1 0) three times on *error-output*.
2021-05-05T16:37:26Z pjb: no, the difference is when the handler is executed.
2021-05-05T16:37:40Z pjb: handler-case it's executed AFTER unwinding the stack. handler-bind it's executed BEFORE.
2021-05-05T16:38:04Z pjb: usually you will use handler-case.  Only if you want to do something in the context where the error is detected you will use handler-bind.
2021-05-05T16:38:47Z nij: I want to let the procedure move on, but capture all logs.
2021-05-05T16:39:07Z pjb: And what don't you like in my solution???
2021-05-05T16:39:19Z pjb: give like, 4 hours ago.
2021-05-05T16:39:22Z pjb: +n
2021-05-05T16:39:57Z pjb: and what does letting the procedure move on? At what point do you want to resume?
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2021-05-05T16:40:34Z pjb: (+ 1 (/ 0))  if we resume afer (/ 0), what value should we use for (+ 1 ?)
2021-05-05T16:41:02Z pjb: since we cannot answer this question in general, you have to write restart points in the procedure!
2021-05-05T16:41:02Z nij: nil
2021-05-05T16:41:28Z nij: So we have (+ 1 nil), which leads to another error.
2021-05-05T16:41:32Z nij: And the answer is again nil.
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2021-05-05T16:42:44Z pjb: (handler-bind ((error (lambda (c) (invoke-restart 'continue)))) (with-simple-restart (continue "Continue") (+ 1 (with-simple-restart (continue "Continue") (/ 0))))) #| --> nil ; t |#
2021-05-05T16:43:04Z pjb: But you need to wrap the continue restarts yourself.
2021-05-05T16:43:40Z pjb: Note: there's little point in continuing willy-nilly. It can be dangerous.
2021-05-05T16:43:41Z saturn2: any sensible compiler will rely on the assumption that it's impossible to return normally from an error
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2021-05-05T16:44:00Z pjb: (handler-bind ((error (lambda (c) (invoke-restart 'continue)))) (with-simple-restart (continue "Continue") (if (with-simple-restart (continue "Continue") (/ 0)) 'ok 'send-the-missile))) #| --> send-the-missile |#
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2021-05-05T16:44:44Z pjb: So it cannot be automatic. You have to manage it yourself!
2021-05-05T16:46:41Z nij: I .. see.. I'm avoiding to do something that I must do.
2021-05-05T16:47:18Z nij: Namely, if there's an error, either ignore it, or handle it. I basically just want to ignore it, and hope the procedure goes on. But that's not possible in general.
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2021-05-05T16:47:57Z pjb: nij: ignoring the error still means that you will skip to the point of ignorance.
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2021-05-05T16:48:53Z pjb: When there is an error, you want to avoid continuing doing blindly what you were doing, because it's useless or dangerous. Instead, you want to continue from a point where you know what consistent state you are in.
2021-05-05T16:49:00Z pjb: Hence ignore-error or handler-case.
2021-05-05T16:49:40Z pjb: handler-bind is for when you want to enter the debugger, or invoke a restart, which are continuation points that have been designed in the program, that may be inside the scope of the handler-bind form.
2021-05-05T16:49:41Z nij: What does ignore-errors do when encountering an error?  Stop the process, and return nil?
2021-05-05T16:50:09Z pjb: nothing is stopped.  It just performs a non-local exit to its scope and return nil and the error.
2021-05-05T16:50:15Z pjb: have you read my paste?
2021-05-05T16:50:38Z nij: Yes but tbh I can't fully understand..
2021-05-05T16:52:01Z pjb: (macroexpand-1 '(ignore-errors (/ 0))) #| --> (handler-case (progn (/ 0)) (error (condition) (values nil condition))) ; t |#
2021-05-05T16:52:04Z nij: You mean the one with with-debugger-disabled?
2021-05-05T16:52:05Z pjb: ie. (defmacro ignore-errors (&body body) `(handler-case (progn ,@body) (error (err) (values nil err))))
2021-05-05T16:52:08Z nij: Oh that one is fine.
2021-05-05T16:52:08Z pjb: Yes.
2021-05-05T16:52:10Z jcowan: pjb: Not always.  In a server, for example, you probably want to abandon th thread on an error, not the whole program.
2021-05-05T16:52:32Z nij: It touches *debugger-hook* which I decide to take a look after considering handler-bind.
2021-05-05T16:52:35Z pjb: When we ask to disable the debugger, it's not the same as when we as to ignore the errors.
2021-05-05T16:52:52Z pjb: jcowan: this is not what ignore-errors does!
2021-05-05T16:52:59Z pjb: If you want to do that, you have to code it!
2021-05-05T16:53:17Z pjb: nij: don't. Use handler-case!
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2021-05-05T16:54:06Z jcowan: In the sense that you want to have a handler wrapped around the thread.
2021-05-05T16:54:10Z pjb: nij: Reading TCLCS: https://www.apress.com/us/book/9781484261330 should help.
2021-05-05T16:54:41Z pjb: jcowan: in the sense that this is meaningless.  You wrap handlers around scopes of code. There's no consideration of threads.
2021-05-05T16:55:00Z jcowan: Typically there is a scope of code in which a thread runs.
2021-05-05T16:55:07Z pjb: (wrap-handler-around-thread (current-thread)) implementwrap-handler-around-thread !
2021-05-05T16:55:39Z jcowan: I agree that makes no sense
2021-05-05T16:55:40Z pjb: The current thread may be finished long before  wrap-handler-around-thread even starts…
2021-05-05T16:57:15Z jcowan: I was talking about (make-thread (handler-case ... (foo)), where the handler-case traps errors.
2021-05-05T16:58:18Z pjb: But again, you're forgetting that make-thread takes a function, not a form.
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2021-05-05T16:58:50Z pjb: (make-thread (lambda ()  (handler-case (foo) (error (err) (princ err) (terpri)))))
2021-05-05T16:58:59Z pjb: vs. eg. (make-thread (lambda ()  (loop (handler-case (foo) (error (err) (princ err) (terpri))))))
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2021-05-05T16:59:54Z pjb: As you can see, often you will want to wrap the body of the loop, not the body of the whole function called by the thread.
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2021-05-05T17:00:15Z pjb: It's not because handling a request failed, that the request handling should stop, is it?
2021-05-05T17:01:38Z nij: I see. I'll just use (handler-case (/ 0) (error (c) (print c) (values nil c)))
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2021-05-05T17:02:38Z pjb: Yes.
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2021-05-05T17:03:06Z pjb: Now one problem is that in  more complex functions, there are a lot of places where a given error may occur. So just printing the error message may be insufficient.
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2021-05-05T17:03:13Z pjb: nij: you may want to print the backtrace too.
2021-05-05T17:03:22Z pjb: In that case you want handler-bind.
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2021-05-05T17:04:05Z pjb: nij: eg. (block try (handler-bind ((error (lambda (c) (princ c) (terpri) (print-backtrace) (return-from try nil)))) (body)))
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2021-05-05T17:12:24Z nij: pjb, it's much closer than what I want! Cool :-)
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2021-05-05T17:12:42Z nij: However, in the print-backtrace, some part was elided. Can I print FULL backtrace?
2021-05-05T17:12:57Z nij:  Eg it currently prints: (loop for x in (l... {100222A02F}>) #<NULL-LEXENV>)
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2021-05-05T17:20:22Z Odin-: I'd presume that to be implementation-dependent stuff.
2021-05-05T17:21:47Z Shinmera: Colleen: tell nij about dissect
2021-05-05T17:21:48Z Colleen: nij: Unknown command. Possible matches: 8, set, say, mop, get, about self, logout, grant, block, award,
2021-05-05T17:21:54Z Shinmera: ugh
2021-05-05T17:22:02Z Shinmera: Colleen: tell nij look up dissect
2021-05-05T17:22:02Z Colleen: nij: About dissect https://shinmera.github.io/dissect
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2021-05-05T17:42:42Z pjb: nij: (block done (handler-bind ((error (lambda (err) (uiop:print-backtrace :stream *error-output* :count 10 :condition err)  (return-from done))))  (/ 0)))
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2021-05-05T17:44:31Z nij: Thanks Shinmera, pjb :)
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2021-05-05T18:45:47Z CL-ASHOK: Is there a way to define a function which modifies the value of the parameter passed in?
2021-05-05T18:47:20Z CL-ASHOK: e.g. (defun modify-this (parameter) .....) where .... modifies parameter. Or do I need to do (setf parameter (modify-this parameter))
2021-05-05T18:48:07Z pjb: (defun modify-this (parameter) (setf parameter 42) (assert (= 42 parameter)) parameter) (modify-this 33) #| --> 42 |#
2021-05-05T18:48:26Z Bike: No. The function parameter is a new binding and that's what setf will modify.
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2021-05-05T18:48:40Z pjb: CL-ASHOK: the parameter a the variable  local to the function that contains the value of the argument passed to the function.
2021-05-05T18:49:03Z CL-ASHOK: Bike: Yes, that's what I thought
2021-05-05T18:49:11Z pjb: CL-ASHOK: if what you want to mutate is a lexical variable outside of the scope of the function, then no, there's no direct way.
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2021-05-05T18:49:27Z pjb: CL-ASHOK: but note that you can create closures that can mutate a lexical variable, INSIDE the scope of the variable.
2021-05-05T18:49:31Z CL-ASHOK: pjb: Thanks - what's the suggested way to do it?
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2021-05-05T18:50:16Z pjb: CL-ASHOK: (defun modify-fun (writer) (funcall writer 42)) (let ((variable 33))  (modify-fun (lambda (new-value) (setf variable new-value)))  variable) #| --> 42 |#
2021-05-05T18:50:24Z pjb: CL-ASHOK: it is not suggested to do it!!!
2021-05-05T18:50:29Z pjb: But this a way to do it.
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2021-05-05T18:50:46Z pjb: CL-ASHOK: you can wrap that in macros: http://informatimago.com/articles/usenet.html#C-like-pointers-in-Lisp
2021-05-05T18:51:07Z pjb: CL-ASHOK: the question is more what you are trying to do?
2021-05-05T18:51:15Z pjb: on a higher leve?
2021-05-05T18:51:17Z pjb: level
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2021-05-05T18:52:03Z CL-ASHOK: pjb: I have a CLOS object that I want to modify. So currently I am re-creating it with the new values, but it would be easier if I could just edit the slot that I want to edit
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2021-05-05T18:52:25Z pjb: CL-ASHOK: so you don't want to modify a variable. You want to modify an object.
2021-05-05T18:52:29Z pjb: Then just do that.
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2021-05-05T18:53:04Z CL-ASHOK: but the object is passed in a function, so if I modify it, only the local copy is modified
2021-05-05T18:53:12Z pjb: (defclass c () ((foo :initform 3 :accessor foo)))  (defun modify-object (o) (setf (foo o) 42))  (let ((o (make-instance 'c))) (modify-object o) (foo o)) #| --> 42 |#
2021-05-05T18:53:26Z pjb: CL-ASHOK: no, the object itself is not copied!
2021-05-05T18:53:35Z pjb: The value that is passed is the reference to the object.
2021-05-05T18:54:18Z pjb: It's not the variable O that is passed, it's the VALUE of the variable O.  The VALUE of the variable or is a reference to the instance.
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2021-05-05T18:55:14Z CL-ASHOK: Oh, so if I have (defun modify-this (object-a) ... (setf (object-name object-a) "David"))
2021-05-05T18:55:31Z CL-ASHOK: object-a is actually modified - so I don't need to keep copying it to a new object?
2021-05-05T18:55:58Z saturn2: objects are not copied when they are passed to a function
2021-05-05T18:56:02Z CL-ASHOK: Thanks for that
2021-05-05T18:56:03Z pjb: CL-ASHOK: there are very few lisp object types that are not mutable: numbers and characters.  Even symbols who have an immutable name, are mutable: you can change the symbol-package, the symbol-value, the symbol-function, the symbol-plist.
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2021-05-05T18:56:14Z CL-ASHOK: that helps alot
2021-05-05T18:56:24Z pjb: "object-a is actually modified" is ambiguous.
2021-05-05T18:56:46Z pjb: The symbol OBJET-A names a variable (the parameter of the function named by the symbol MODIFY-THIS).
2021-05-05T18:57:16Z pjb: the variable named OBJET-A is bound to a lisp object.  This lisp object is the VALUE of the variable named OBJET-A.
2021-05-05T18:57:28Z Nilby: You can also define a setf method or a defsetf
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2021-05-05T18:58:38Z pjb: When you evaluate (setf (object-name object-a) "David"), the value of the variable named OBJECT-A, ie. a reference to the objeect, is passed to the function named (SETF OBJECT-NAME).
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2021-05-05T18:59:04Z saturn2: if you want to be able to mutate a single value, you can also wrap it in another object, like an array e.g. (defun modify-this (parameter) (setf (aref parameter) 42)) (let ((container (make-array nil))) (modify-this container) (aref container)))
2021-05-05T18:59:22Z pjb: CL-ASHOK: in short, lisp uses pass by value, but all the values are references to objects. So you can still mutate mutable objects.
2021-05-05T18:59:34Z pjb: But you cannot mutate the variables.  Variables are not lisp objects.
2021-05-05T18:59:51Z pjb: They are places.
2021-05-05T19:00:05Z pjb: slots too are places (in objects, structures or arrays).
2021-05-05T19:00:33Z CL-ASHOK: pjb: Thanks, I think that makes sense. Will need to read it a couple more times
2021-05-05T19:00:37Z pjb: You cannot mutate the number 42.  numbers are immutable.
2021-05-05T19:00:54Z pjb: But you can mutate a place where the number 42 is bound to.
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2021-05-05T19:01:33Z pjb: CL-ASHOK: really, the model is very simple: places are litle boxes, references are little arrows stored in those boxes, pointing to the referenced lisp object.
2021-05-05T19:01:51Z pjb: Lisp objects contain slots which are places, ie. little boxes.
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2021-05-05T19:01:58Z CL-ASHOK: because in a "normal" parameter, bindings are created with lexical scope (not sure if that is the right terminology)
2021-05-05T19:02:14Z CL-ASHOK: but when we pass in CLOS objects, those bindings don't occur?
2021-05-05T19:02:18Z pjb: Some lisp objects such as number and characters don't contain places, they don't have any arrow going from them.
2021-05-05T19:02:33Z Bike: the kind of object you pass is irrelevant to what bindings are done
2021-05-05T19:03:26Z Bike: the rules are the same for standard objects, conses, symbols, whatever
2021-05-05T19:03:52Z pjb: (defun f (p) …) (let ((a 42)) (f a))  when evaluating f (in the …) we have 2 references to the number 42: a:[*]--->42<---[*]:p
2021-05-05T19:04:35Z pjb: in the place A and the place P.  What has been copied, it is the *--> that was in A, to P.  Hence the 2 arrows.
2021-05-05T19:04:50Z pjb: But the lisp object, 42 in this case, is not copied.
2021-05-05T19:04:50Z CL-ASHOK: Ah so when we change a to 43, then we are repointing a to a new value, whereas when we change an object
2021-05-05T19:05:01Z CL-ASHOK: we are are modifying the object directly and not the pointer?
2021-05-05T19:05:03Z CL-ASHOK: hence it works?
2021-05-05T19:05:15Z pjb: Yes.
2021-05-05T19:05:44Z CL-ASHOK: Thanks! Very helpful :)
2021-05-05T19:06:32Z pjb: eg. a vector with 3 slots: v:[*]-->{[1][2][3]}  passed to a function (defun m (w) (setf (aref w 1) 42) …)  v:[*]-->{[1][42][3]}<--[*]:w in the …
2021-05-05T19:07:06Z pjb: when we return from the function the parameter w is destroyed, but there remain the reference from v: v:[*]-->{[1][42][3]}
2021-05-05T19:07:51Z CL-ASHOK: Got it!
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2021-05-05T19:09:01Z CL-ASHOK: So does the compiler or interpreter maintain a list of lisp objects, and if there are repeated references to them, then multiple variables point to the same object?
2021-05-05T19:09:07Z pjb: CL-ASHOK: now, to delete an element from a list (destructively), we can mutate the CDR of the previous cell.  Even if we want to delete the first element, we can move the CAR and the CDR of the second cell to the first cell.  But what we cannot do, is to transform the last cons cell into the symbol NIL.  Since NIL represents the empty list when we delete the last, element, we need a way to mutate the place that contained the ref
2021-05-05T19:09:08Z pjb: to the first (and last) cell of the list.
2021-05-05T19:09:25Z pjb: CL-ASHOK: this is why with functions like DELETE we use (setf list (delete element list)).
2021-05-05T19:09:58Z sixpiece: hello what is the compiler I should use and what is the link?
2021-05-05T19:10:00Z pjb: It's to handle the case: (let ((list (list 1))) (values (delete 1 list) list)) #| --> nil ; (1) |#
2021-05-05T19:10:04Z sixpiece: for the lessons
2021-05-05T19:10:13Z pjb: sixpiece: what lessons?
2021-05-05T19:10:26Z sixpiece: like to get start with lisp
2021-05-05T19:10:37Z pjb: sixpiece: I like ccl, Clozure CL.
2021-05-05T19:10:45Z pjb: sixpiece: http://cliki.net/Getting+Started
2021-05-05T19:10:47Z CL-ASHOK: sixpence: how much programming background do you have?
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2021-05-05T19:11:51Z pjb: sixpiece: on what system are you working?
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2021-05-05T19:12:17Z pjb: https://ccl.clozure.com http://www.sbcl.org/platform-table.html
2021-05-05T19:12:48Z CL-ASHOK: pjb: Thanks
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2021-05-05T19:16:31Z CL-ASHOK: How much % of your code do you write functionally vs imperatively?
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2021-05-05T19:16:48Z CL-ASHOK: I found I'm getting into the habits of using a lot of lets, which is effectively an imperative style
2021-05-05T19:16:57Z CL-ASHOK: just easier to understand
2021-05-05T19:18:25Z pseudonymous: I have a function which, somehow, returns a namespaced (?) symbol..? All in all it looks like this `(package::foo ...)` and I expected `(foo ...)` - this result comes when calling the relevant function from another package.. Ideas ?
2021-05-05T19:19:59Z Bike: does your function use intern or find-symbol or the like?
2021-05-05T19:20:11Z pjb: CL-ASHOK: no, let is not imperative.
2021-05-05T19:20:21Z pjb: CL-ASHOK: if you don't use SETF, it's functional.
2021-05-05T19:20:39Z pjb: (let ((x v)) (f x)) <=> ((lambda (x) (f x)) v)
2021-05-05T19:20:52Z CL-ASHOK: pjb: I basically have let* and then define 10 variables, with the final one being the answer
2021-05-05T19:21:06Z pjb: Yes. Still purely functionnal.
2021-05-05T19:21:32Z pjb: let or let*, without setf, is purely naming of subsexpression.
2021-05-05T19:21:37Z CL-ASHOK: pjb: Oh I see
2021-05-05T19:22:15Z pseudonymous: Bike: hey :) Not that I'm aware, but CL is not my strong suit. Had a break, but mainly coming from Clojure with a bit of Racket years back. Can I show you a paste ? If so, which paste site(s) are acceptable on this channel ?
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2021-05-05T19:22:42Z pjb: any; I like http://termbin.com
2021-05-05T19:22:58Z Bike: any pastebin is probably fine. I guess the "native" one is plaster.tymoon.eu
2021-05-05T19:23:08Z pjb: ~/bin/tb: #!/bin/bash \n nc termbin.com 9999 | tr -d '\000'
2021-05-05T19:23:09Z pjb:  
2021-05-05T19:23:09Z pjb:  
2021-05-05T19:23:09Z pjb:  
2021-05-05T19:23:12Z pjb:  
2021-05-05T19:23:15Z pjb:  
2021-05-05T19:23:18Z sixpiece: ?
2021-05-05T19:23:36Z pjb: then:  tb < foo.lisp  or in emacs, mark a region, and M-! tb RET
2021-05-05T19:23:36Z Bike: sixpiece: http://sbcl.org/ here's one
2021-05-05T19:23:46Z sixpiece: thanks
2021-05-05T19:24:00Z pjb: sixpiece: if you are on macOS, Closure CL is superior.
2021-05-05T19:24:15Z pjb: Even on linux… I still find a lot of bugs in sbcl.
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2021-05-05T19:26:12Z sixpiece: hello
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2021-05-05T19:27:01Z saturn2: is there anything sbcl does better than ccl?
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2021-05-05T19:27:36Z sixpiece: hello does someone have a tutorial where to start?
2021-05-05T19:28:10Z saturn2: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
2021-05-05T19:28:51Z pseudonymous: Bike: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2431#2431  - the actual function is at the top, the function it's called through right below, the example output in the bottom :) Appreciate it!
2021-05-05T19:29:19Z pjb: sixpiece: http://cliki.net/Getting+Started
2021-05-05T19:29:28Z pjb: sixpiece: http://cliki.net/Online+Tutorial
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2021-05-05T19:29:47Z CL-ASHOK: https://github.com/muditbac/Reading/blob/master/programming/(Prentice%20Hall%20series%20in%20artificial%20intelligence)%20Paul%20Graham-ANSI%20Common%20LISP-Prentice%20Hall%20(1996).pdf
2021-05-05T19:29:50Z Bike: okay, well, that looks usual. if *package* is some other package than xyz, when you print an internal symbol from xyz it will be qualified like this.
2021-05-05T19:30:23Z Bike: Since *package* was xyz when you defined rr/prop-access, the prop symbol it uses is in the xyz package.
2021-05-05T19:30:47Z pjb: One solution would be to export this symbol from xyz.
2021-05-05T19:31:02Z pjb: Another solution would be to use a keyword instead.
2021-05-05T19:31:21Z pjb: But the best solution is to ignore the problem. Use ~A to print instead of ~S !
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2021-05-05T19:32:50Z pseudonymous: Going to digest that :D
2021-05-05T19:33:31Z Bike: basically what package you're in when you run these functions won't affect the results, it's just that the results are displayed differently.
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2021-05-05T19:37:01Z pseudonymous: Ah, well, it does cause some issues in my tests. Strangely enough, the other functions I have which return syntax have managed to avoid this issue until now.
2021-05-05T19:37:38Z Bike: It could be for example that your test refers to its own 'prop, which will effectively be xyz/tests::prop, which is a distinct symbol from xyz::prop.
2021-05-05T19:40:18Z pseudonymous: Hehe.. I suspect it's because I'm returning (and comparing) forms like `(lambda ...) and `(let ...) and I'm guessing both packages agree on these symbols :D
2021-05-05T19:40:56Z Bike: if they both use the CL package, they are yes.
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2021-05-05T19:42:59Z Krystof: I am 90% certain I wasn't at RMLL in 2000
2021-05-05T19:43:52Z Krystof: beach: my first bug report to SBCL was in 2001; my first commit to SBCL cvs was 2002
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2021-05-05T19:44:07Z Krystof: I was at Dartington International Summer School in 2000
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2021-05-05T19:46:54Z Krystof: beach: https://web.archive.org/web/20170630054304/http://www.advogato.org/person/crhodes/diary/24.html puts my (I think) first RMLL appearance in 2002
2021-05-05T19:48:14Z Krystof: but it might have been my second, possibly?  Certainly not my third
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2021-05-05T21:05:14Z srandon111: sorry i lost some messages
2021-05-05T21:05:26Z srandon111: i was wondering why sbcl does not support threading in netbsd
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2021-05-05T21:14:17Z Nilby: srandon111: I like netbsd, but I have some troubles with sbcl on it. I've been working on trying to fix it. Maybe if I figure it out, I'll work on threads.
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2021-05-05T22:54:29Z phoe: jnewton: the second edition of TCLCS might not even appear
2021-05-05T22:54:55Z phoe: so I guess buy it now, mostly because I don't know if asking you to wait for a new edition is asking you to wait forever
2021-05-05T22:57:24Z antoszka: phoe: what's tclcs?
2021-05-05T23:00:28Z phoe: The Common Lisp Condition System
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2021-05-06T00:02:19Z nij: Is there a way to include a slot test for each slot of an instance of a class?
2021-05-06T00:03:35Z nij: For instance, I want the :nickname slot of 'person to be a string that only contains lowercase letters a-z. And whenever an instance of 'person to be constructed, the check is performed; and an error will be signaled if test fails.
2021-05-06T00:05:14Z Bike: you could put a check in a :before method on shared-initialize or initialize-instance
2021-05-06T00:08:09Z lotuseater: or use DEFTYPE to construct such a special string type and use that for the :type field for the slot (that's only checked at initialization if safety is high)
2021-05-06T00:08:14Z nij: Can I embed the checking boolean function directly in the (defclass..) form?
2021-05-06T00:08:55Z nij: (defclass person () (nickname :check (lambda (x) (> (length x) 3)))) ;; for example
2021-05-06T00:09:18Z nij: Should replace :check with other things.. if any.
2021-05-06T00:09:30Z pjb: but types may be ignored by an implementation. Better write the :before method, it's their purpose.
2021-05-06T00:09:48Z pjb: or just an normal initialize-instance method.
2021-05-06T00:10:26Z pjb: (defmethod initialize-instance :before ((p person) &key nickname &allow-other-keys)
2021-05-06T00:10:55Z pjb: But using check-type in a :before method would be useless, you could only signal an error.
2021-05-06T00:11:34Z nij: :-( Hmm
2021-05-06T00:12:14Z pjb: So it's better to use the main method: (defmethod initialize-instance ((p person) &key nickname … &allow-other-keys) (assert (and (stringp nickname) (< 3 (length nickname))) (nickname) "Nickname must be a string of more than 3 characters, not ~S" nickname) … (call-next-method) p)
2021-05-06T00:12:42Z pjb: Well: (defmethod initialize-instance ((p person) &key nickname … &allow-other-keys) (assert (and (stringp nickname) (< 3 (length nickname))) (nickname) "Nickname must be a string of more than 3 characters, not ~S" nickname) … (when (next-method-p) (call-next-method)) p)
2021-05-06T00:12:50Z nij: pjb:  even with initialize-instance, sometimes if the user is not careful, they can still use make-instance to surpass my test?
2021-05-06T00:12:51Z pjb: Don't forget the test for next-method-p…
2021-05-06T00:13:06Z pjb: nij: no, he cannot, since make-instance calls initialize-instance.
2021-05-06T00:13:17Z Bike: make-instance calls initialize-instance
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2021-05-06T00:13:32Z pjb: nij: but you may prefer to use shared-initialize instead, in case there's a change-class involved.
2021-05-06T00:13:39Z Bike: technically they could bypass initialize-instance by using allocate-instance and setting slots manually, but if they do that they are beyond the protection of god or man
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2021-05-06T00:14:05Z nij: What's "change-class involved"?
2021-05-06T00:14:28Z pjb: The generic function shared-initialize is used to fill the slots of an instance using initargs and :initform forms. It is called when an instance is created, when an instance is re-initialized, when an instance is updated to conform to a redefined class, and when an instance is updated to conform to a different class. The generic function shared-initialize is called by the system-supplied primary method for initialize-instance,
2021-05-06T00:14:28Z pjb: reinitialize-instance, update-instance-for-redefined-class, and update-instance-for-different-class.
2021-05-06T00:14:41Z nij: Bike or I can just include a person-p check in the beginning of any method?
2021-05-06T00:14:57Z Bike: if you're okay with that overhead, i guess
2021-05-06T00:15:17Z pjb: (defclass animal () …) (change-instance 'person (make-instance 'animal :race 'werewolf) :nickname "Woof")
2021-05-06T00:15:17Z nij: That's what I do now...... I find it cumbersome.
2021-05-06T00:16:11Z nij: Weird.. we can lock a package.. but we cannot lock a slot..
2021-05-06T00:16:17Z pjb: But yes, shared-initialize should be used in general, instead of initialize-instance.  We can cope with initialize-instance just because we don't re-initialize, redefine a class or change of class often.
2021-05-06T00:16:32Z pjb: No, not in CL, you cannot lock packages.
2021-05-06T00:16:43Z pjb: This is an implementation specific extension.
2021-05-06T00:16:57Z nij: ah .. right
2021-05-06T00:17:16Z nij: Or I just make a thread to constantly check every instance :-D ?
2021-05-06T00:17:21Z pjb: nij: go to #sbcl or some other implementation specific channel to discuss why they don't allow you to lock any slot. For example (lock  (aref v 42))
2021-05-06T00:17:55Z nij: I find it weird to not being able to "assumption-check" a slot.
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2021-05-06T00:18:15Z nij: Some object really needs to be checked in order for it to fit into the expected abstraction framework.
2021-05-06T00:18:16Z pjb: nij: stop spreading misinformation!  You can! Just write the accessor!
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2021-05-06T00:18:40Z nij: pjb: which part is misinfo? (thanks for pointing out!)
2021-05-06T00:18:59Z pjb: nij: you are asking the questions wrong. You should notl say "I find it weird we cannot do X in lisp", you should say "How do I do X in lisp?"!!!
2021-05-06T00:19:12Z pjb: nij: the part where you are asserting things that are wrong, instead of asking how to do it!
2021-05-06T00:20:19Z Nilby: The answer is almost always that you can do X.
2021-05-06T00:20:43Z pjb: nij: that said, I agree that there could be some macrology, to specify invariants, pre and post conditions in a more declarative way, and have the functions and method definiting macros use those declarations.
2021-05-06T00:20:46Z nij: Or instead I should have said: "I find it wierd to not being able to automatically assumption-check in the thing provided already by CLOS." Is that better?
2021-05-06T00:21:26Z pjb: nij: you can (shadow  '(defclass defun lambda defgeneric defmethod defmacro)) and implement them to process such declarations.
2021-05-06T00:21:39Z nij: XD That works! Lemme do that.
2021-05-06T00:21:40Z no-defun-allowed: pjb: Stop complaining, start googling https://github.com/sellout/quid-pro-quo
2021-05-06T00:22:18Z pjb: (defgeneric foo (x) (declare (precondition (< 0 (bar x))) (postcondition (= (bar x) (- (old (bar x)) 1)))))
2021-05-06T00:22:28Z nij: :-O
2021-05-06T00:22:36Z nij: no-defun-allowed is this what I'm asking for?!
2021-05-06T00:22:40Z pjb: and then any (defmethod foo ((x c))  …) would automatically insert the tests.
2021-05-06T00:22:53Z pjb: nij: note: you would have to deal with non-local exits.
2021-05-06T00:23:23Z pjb: nij: some declaration would be needed to specify the allowed conditions. (like throws declarations in C++).
2021-05-06T00:24:09Z Bike: wow, a custom method condition
2021-05-06T00:24:30Z Bike: combination
2021-05-06T00:24:52Z Bike: aw geez, and it uses :arguments
2021-05-06T00:25:00Z pjb: or you can use a library, eg. https://github.com/sellout/quid-pro-quo
2021-05-06T00:25:13Z pjb: or use CLIKI: https://www.cliki.net/Design%20by%20contract
2021-05-06T00:25:50Z nij: I.. I need time to comprehend quid-pro-quo.. but first I'll do pjb's advice. If someone would, could you please tell me how quid-pro-quo would fit into my need? I will get back to that soon after digesting pjb's word.
2021-05-06T00:25:51Z pjb: Note how DBC uses the method-combinations to specify the pre and post conditions.
2021-05-06T00:26:26Z Bike: i haven't used it, but it looks like you can define invariants in the class definition
2021-05-06T00:26:44Z Bike: and also it explicitly checks declared types
2021-05-06T00:26:58Z nij:  ===> (defmethod foo ((x c))  …) would automatically insert the test ;; !!!!! I didn't know this.
2021-05-06T00:27:09Z nij: I thought defgeneric should only be documentation-like!
2021-05-06T00:27:18Z pjb: nij: no, you would have to define it in nij:defmethod.
2021-05-06T00:27:24Z pjb: nij: note the shadow operator above!
2021-05-06T00:27:31Z nij: shoot.
2021-05-06T00:27:44Z pjb: Once a symbol from CL is shadowed, we're not talking about CL anymore, but about your own operators!
2021-05-06T00:28:02Z nij: Ok.. I won't do that myself. That's too advanced (for now).
2021-05-06T00:28:09Z nij: Now lemme dive into quid-pro-quo.
2021-05-06T00:29:34Z nij: I'm melt. Sounds exactly what I want: "The client must guarantee certain conditions before calling a method specialized on the class (the preconditions), the class guarantees certain properties after the call (the postconditions)."
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2021-05-06T00:31:14Z pjb: nij: check DBC too, you may like it better.
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2021-05-06T00:31:52Z pjb: nij: also, note that just using ASSERT in your code, let you insert explicit pre-conditions post-conditions and invariants.
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2021-05-06T00:32:12Z perdent: Hey is anyone interested in a crypto/hardware challenge i made involving DPA/CPA on AES-128? So I captured the embedded device that was used to encrypt the ciphers you are trying to break. are you able to recover its Encryption  Key?  here is the socket_interface: https://pastebin.com/cLuqmZyY and here is the remote lab layout: https://ibb.co/q9j59Mq  PS, his might b helpful, message me if you need any hints, and if you manage to solve it
2021-05-06T00:32:12Z perdent: Can communicate to the remote device with netcat or or with the socket interface script to receive traces etc.
2021-05-06T00:32:12Z perdent: Here is the host you can netcat to and communicate via the socket script: 206.189.121.131:32384
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2021-05-06T00:38:09Z nij: quid-pro-quo seems to be a stronger version of dbc, according to someone on the internet
2021-05-06T00:39:16Z lotuseater: i thought DEFGENERIC is also useful for giving defaults for &OPTIONALs or &KEYs
2021-05-06T00:40:02Z Bike: it is useful for various things
2021-05-06T00:41:41Z nij: What if I just use deftype.. and make a new type? Then use :type? What are some ways for the users to workaround this scheme?
2021-05-06T00:41:55Z nij: As lotuseater suggested way above ^^^
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2021-05-06T00:42:31Z nij: Ah, pjb said that :type check is implementation dependent? Too bad..
2021-05-06T00:43:36Z lotuseater: yes it is nij
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2021-05-06T00:44:49Z lotuseater: and don't forget to put EVAL-WHEN around the predicates
2021-05-06T00:45:56Z lotuseater: and then eg (deftype special-string () '(and string (satisfies special-string-p)))
2021-05-06T00:46:25Z pjb: nij: did I say that?
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2021-05-06T00:46:53Z pjb: nij: Yes, I said that implementations may ignore types.
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2021-05-06T00:48:53Z pjb: nij: :type in defclass is a DECLARATION, not a check!  "The :type slot option specifies that the contents of the slot will always be of the specified data type. It effectively declares the result type of the reader generic function when applied to an object of this class. "
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2021-05-06T00:49:15Z pjb: nij: it is YOU who are telling the compiler that it does not need to perform any check, that the slot will always contain the type you specify.
2021-05-06T00:49:19Z pjb: this is very dangerous!
2021-05-06T00:49:49Z pjb: What you want is to check the parameters for the right type. Ie. use CHECK-TYPE in the shared-initialize method.
2021-05-06T00:49:54Z lotuseater: yeah and for documentation when read by others or yourself after some time
2021-05-06T00:51:32Z pjb: (defclass c () ((x :initarg :x :initform 42 :type fixnum :reader x)))  (make-instance 'c :x "foo") is undefined, but worse, it makes (declaim (safety 3)) (+ 3 (make-instance 'c :x "foo")) undefined as well AFAIUI.
2021-05-06T00:51:53Z pjb: I mean: (+ 3 (x (make-instance 'c :x "foo")))
2021-05-06T00:52:27Z pjb: Because :type fixnum in the slot works as a declaration,  (+ 3 (x (make-instance 'c :x "foo")))  should  behave as (+ 3 (the fixnum (x (make-instance 'c :x "foo")))) and therefore cannot signal a type-error.
2021-05-06T00:55:01Z lotuseater: haha pjb my ERC displays your ":x" as an emoji ^^
2021-05-06T00:55:53Z pjb: well, we're still in undefined waters for (+ 3 (x (make-instance 'c :x "foo"))), so I guess a type-error would be acceptable. But anything else too.
2021-05-06T00:56:19Z pjb: THE specifies that the values returned by form are of the types specified by value-type. The consequences are undefined if any result is not of the declared type.
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2021-05-06T00:57:33Z nij: Hmm.. hold on quid-pro-quo did what I exactly want- it called it an ":invariant" slot.
2021-05-06T00:57:44Z nij: https://github.com/sellout/quid-pro-quo/blob/master/README.md ;; see the last code block.
2021-05-06T00:58:11Z nij: The tests are put in that slot! How did it do it?! Did it redefine the macro defclass as pjb said?
2021-05-06T00:58:16Z lotuseater: oh eiffel contracts :)
2021-05-06T00:58:57Z lotuseater: yes why not nij?
2021-05-06T00:59:25Z nij: I dunno.. because I didn't see it redefining defclass based on github search engine.
2021-05-06T01:00:00Z nij: It also says "in order to have invariants on a class, the metaclass must be specified as contracted-class." - metaclasses are still beyond my knowledge.
2021-05-06T01:00:32Z lotuseater: in standard DEFCLASS there is no eg :invariants
2021-05-06T01:00:32Z nij: So maybe it did that without hacking defclass, but by introducing a new metaclass?
2021-05-06T01:01:07Z nij: lotuseater: https://github.com/sellout/quid-pro-quo/search?q=defclass
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2021-05-06T01:01:50Z pjb: nij: nope, there's no shadow in https://github.com/sellout/quid-pro-quo/blob/master/src/package.lisp  but dbc shadows defclass and make-instance.
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2021-05-06T01:02:35Z Nilby: My opinion is that until you have a lot of CL experience, it's probably better not to mutate the language too much, until you understand the trade-offs.
2021-05-06T01:02:53Z pjb: nij: Perhaps the presence of a source file named metaclass is a hint? https://github.com/sellout/quid-pro-quo/blob/master/src/metaclass.lisp
2021-05-06T01:03:15Z nij: Nilby: Yeah I think so. So I'm trying to find out if it mutates the lang, or actually it's playing in the circle.
2021-05-06T01:03:43Z nij: Nilby: as pjb pointed out, there's no shadowing at all.
2021-05-06T01:03:48Z lotuseater: yes i cloned the repo and look throught it atm myself a bit :)
2021-05-06T01:04:22Z nij: (Btw, the author is a HASKELLER.)
2021-05-06T01:04:27Z Nilby: With Lisp, it's hard to see a circle. In some way every function and macro mutates the language.
2021-05-06T01:05:16Z nij: Nilby oh that's right..
2021-05-06T01:05:36Z lotuseater: hehe, yeah nij, there you could learn also more about where parser-combinators come from
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2021-05-06T01:06:14Z nij: lotuseater: I got irritated when there's no checking performed for a, say monad, when you claim your data is a monad..
2021-05-06T01:06:33Z lotuseater: and for what Nilby says, it's also not bad for knowing how the MOP works and how (or maybe why) it differs
2021-05-06T01:06:34Z nij: I think dbc is very important.. I cannot imagine a lang without that. At least, I need to know how to dbc.
2021-05-06T01:07:07Z nij: lotuseater:  Are you hinting that maybe the magic here is played by MOP? I have no idea what that is yet.
2021-05-06T01:08:05Z lotuseater: when you talk about type signatures in haskell, that's checked at compile time by the GHC type inferencer
2021-05-06T01:08:17Z lotuseater: ehm i don't know
2021-05-06T01:08:33Z lotuseater: but there's this book about it ...
2021-05-06T01:09:01Z nij: lotuseater.. no there's nothing there to check if your monad is really a monad.
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2021-05-06T01:09:12Z nij: But that's for #haskell.. heh :)
2021-05-06T01:09:16Z lotuseater: but the magic could be coming from closer-mop
2021-05-06T01:09:46Z nij: Perhaps - in readme it says "Corman – NO[T supported], it’s not supported by Closer-MOP"
2021-05-06T01:10:08Z lotuseater: ok
2021-05-06T01:10:57Z nij: Cool. I need to get familiar with CLOS, and then CLOSER-MOP. Sounds a lot of fun!
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2021-05-06T01:15:50Z saturn2: nij: all the pieces of CLOS - classes, generic functions, and so on - are themselves objects which you can subclass and define your own behavior for. that's what MOP is
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2021-05-06T01:20:00Z zacts: can a lisp program with included quicklisp libraries be compiled into a single binary?
2021-05-06T01:20:56Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, it can.
2021-05-06T01:21:03Z saturn2: yes, as long as those libraries don't depend on reading any files after being compiled
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2021-05-06T01:21:15Z zacts: how might I do that?
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2021-05-06T01:22:39Z no-defun-allowed: Same as how you'd make a binary without dependencies. Load your code, then dump an image.
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2021-05-06T01:23:18Z zacts: no-defun-allowed: I'm a complete beginner, I don't even know how to do that yet. Can I lookup how to do this in the SBCL doc?
2021-05-06T01:23:27Z nij: saturn2.. that's pretty sick. That means we can hack CLOS insided MOP?
2021-05-06T01:23:45Z White_Flame: zacts: save-lisp-and-die in the docs
2021-05-06T01:23:51Z zacts: White_Flame: thanks
2021-05-06T01:23:53Z White_Flame: *sbcl docs
2021-05-06T01:24:19Z White_Flame: saves a snapshot of the current state of the running lisp image, and give it a function to run when it starts up again
2021-05-06T01:24:33Z Nilby: also program-op in asdf (section 7.1.1 in the asdf manual)
2021-05-06T01:24:33Z no-defun-allowed: zacts: Yes, but in summary, assuming you have another system with your code, you are looking at (ql:quickload :your-system-name) (sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die "binary-name" :executable t :toplevel #'your-system-name:start)
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2021-05-06T01:25:04Z zacts: no-defun-allowed: thanks
2021-05-06T01:25:11Z nij: zacts: this worked for me - https://bpa.st/PVVQ   code taken from death
2021-05-06T01:25:39Z zacts: would this binary be portable enough that I could post it as a Linux release for a project on GitHub?
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2021-05-06T01:27:40Z zacts: Like, would I be able to publish a single x86 Linux static binary image that others could run on an x86 Linux without them needing to install SBCL?
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2021-05-06T01:28:12Z White_Flame: yes
2021-05-06T01:28:19Z zacts: cool
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2021-05-06T01:29:43Z White_Flame: however, if some of the QL dependencies rely on native .so's being present, those aren't going to be statically linked
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2021-05-06T01:30:14Z zacts: ok
2021-05-06T01:30:32Z White_Flame: so the target machine might hopefully just need some apt installs or whatever to get them
2021-05-06T01:30:40Z zacts: I see
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2021-05-06T01:34:54Z lotuseat`: hm i wasn't aware you can compile static binaries. but that would loose the ability being redefinable at runtime, wouldn't it?
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2021-05-06T01:36:39Z White_Flame: no, why would it?
2021-05-06T01:36:42Z White_Flame: the compiler is included in there
2021-05-06T01:37:06Z White_Flame: the lisp executable you run to start your session is exactly the same
2021-05-06T01:37:29Z White_Flame: in terms of a compiled binary containing a snapshotted bootstrap image
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2021-05-06T01:39:01Z lotuseat`: so it's dynamic and not static
2021-05-06T01:39:12Z White_Flame: what do you specifically mean by those terms?
2021-05-06T01:39:23Z White_Flame: usually it's the difference between linking to a .o or a .so
2021-05-06T01:39:31Z Nilby: zacts: There can be problems, but here's a couple recent successful stories of binary packaging: https://www.timmons.dev/ and https://nyxt.atlas.engineer/article/continuous-testing-and-packaging.org
2021-05-06T01:39:49Z lotuseat`: I don't know, I'm confused by them
2021-05-06T01:39:53Z White_Flame: heh
2021-05-06T01:40:04Z lotuseat`: what do you?
2021-05-06T01:40:45Z zacts: Nilby: neat, thanks!
2021-05-06T01:41:17Z White_Flame: well, at the OS & C lingo, a static library means it's fully included into your executable when you compile it.  A dynamically linked library means it looks for the shared installed separate library file when the executable runs, meaning the executable is smaller and the OS could have a different version and still work
2021-05-06T01:42:10Z White_Flame: SBCL, for instance, uses a zlib dynamic library to support compressed cores, so it's not fully static
2021-05-06T01:43:02Z lotuseat`: ok for me
2021-05-06T01:44:40Z White_Flame: here's the full list: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2432#2432
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2021-05-06T01:44:53Z White_Flame: but one assumes that certain ones are always available
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2021-05-06T01:46:07Z lotuseat`: thx
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2021-05-06T01:46:28Z White_Flame: so really, I'm not sure how many "static binaries" there are in existence anymore, but rather you have static libraries vs dynamic libraries
2021-05-06T01:46:47Z White_Flame: in terms of the executable's compilation & runtime usage
2021-05-06T01:47:56Z etimmons: many golang programs compile to static binaries
2021-05-06T01:48:23Z White_Flame: so no libc.so, libpthread.so, linux-vdso.so etc?
2021-05-06T01:49:25Z etimmons: definitely no libc.so and libpthread.so. Not sure if there's any special magic for linux-vdso.so on static binaries
2021-05-06T01:49:58Z etimmons: It's also possible to do with SBCL (see the timmons.dev link above)
2021-05-06T01:50:29Z etimmons: And possible to do with ECL (definitely easier than SBCL, and actually supported by upstream)
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2021-05-06T01:52:16Z etimmons: libc.so madness was one of the reasons I pursued static binaries with SBCL. I was tired of always needing to remember to compile with an old glibc for the broadest support
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2021-05-06T01:52:56Z etimmons: Now when I care about distributing to others, I do a static binary built on Alpine
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2021-05-06T01:53:21Z Nilby: zacts: There's also this https://github.com/Shinmera/deploy from the first persone, that we know of, to heroicly make CL Steam games.
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2021-05-06T01:55:46Z etimmons: zacts: definitely recommend starting with deploy or linux-packaging. Making static binaries definitely has some quirks that it's best to avoid unless you *really* know that's what you want
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2021-05-06T02:03:48Z zacts: etimmons: oh, thanks
2021-05-06T02:05:08Z zacts: etimmons: is this what you mean by "deploy"? https://github.com/Shinmera/deploy
2021-05-06T02:06:26Z etimmons: Yes. and linux-packaging is https://gitlab.com/ralt/linux-packaging/ (also referred to in the Nyxt link)
2021-05-06T02:06:56Z etimmons: but both of those are probably overkill if you don't have any foreign libraries
2021-05-06T02:07:31Z etimmons: In that case, just use asdf:program-op and compile on the oldest version of your linux distribution that you're willing to support
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2021-05-06T03:04:42Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-05-06T06:46:33Z splittist: I don't see any need for a 2e of TCLCS (I don't have any problems with the style). Perhaps a companion volume in a few years:  ITCLCSB - Implementing the Common Lisp Condition System in Blub
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2021-05-06T07:18:21Z phoe: splittist: I actually thought that a second edition of TCLCS could include such a chapter - e.g. a description of implementing a CS in Java (see cafe-latte), and maybe in a non-memory-managed language too if we want to be extra risky
2021-05-06T07:18:35Z phoe: but just Java should be enough, too
2021-05-06T07:21:41Z phoe: and there is still stuff that needs to get integrated into the main body from the appendices
2021-05-06T07:22:06Z phoe: and with that, we need to fix the fact of lack of hyperlinks/footnotes.
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2021-05-06T07:27:12Z phoe: I don't think that a ITCLCSB would be large enough to warrant its own existence, unless we actually do the work and implement those in multiple distinct languages, noting the quirks everywhere
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2021-05-06T07:33:53Z splittist: phoe: I was thinking of your next N papers (as co-author as necessary) as Implementing TCLCS in X, and then the book as a compendium (:
2021-05-06T07:34:56Z beach: Oh, like Appel's compiler books.
2021-05-06T07:35:07Z phoe: hm
2021-05-06T07:35:10Z phoe: maybe
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2021-05-06T07:43:49Z splittist: or just have others write the papers and you can be the editor of the book - "Phoe on Condition Systems" ...
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2021-05-06T07:45:50Z splittist imagines the "International Condition Systems Conference" co-located with ELS
2021-05-06T07:48:15Z no-defun-allowed: "Here we have phoe representing the Common Lisp condition system, and here is psoe representing the Dylan condition system."
2021-05-06T07:49:30Z p_l: no-defun-allowed: and ploe on "adventures in mandatory stack unwinding land - systemwide exception and condition system in NT"
2021-05-06T07:49:53Z phoe: gosh that's already a lot of different people
2021-05-06T07:51:30Z no-defun-allowed was expecting phoe's alter egoes to be other Greek letters
2021-05-06T07:52:07Z splittist: Isn't Success (TM) in Academia (TM) mainly about gaming the system? (As opposed to excellence in being an academic, which doesn't seem to be particularly valued.)
2021-05-06T07:52:12Z p_l: ... ok, wtf, windows has continuable exceptions
2021-05-06T07:52:50Z p_l: splittist: non-academic management definitely pushes that mode
2021-05-06T07:53:10Z p_l: > The machine state of the thread in which the exception occurred is saved in a CONTEXT structure. This information (called the context record) enables the system to continue execution at the point of the exception if the exception is successfully handled.
2021-05-06T07:53:35Z p_l: so... I can do CL-like conditions in C, so long as it's WinNT and preferably compiled with MSVC
2021-05-06T07:54:09Z splittist: which is a awful lot of software, to be fair
2021-05-06T07:54:55Z no-defun-allowed: We also have xoe with the intermediate Ralph condition system in the middle.
2021-05-06T07:54:58Z p_l: also, iirc, MSVC++ automatically compiles C++ exceptions to SEH
2021-05-06T07:54:59Z Nilby: Some of the NT kernel is actually no so bad design, it's just the rest that sucks.
2021-05-06T07:55:08Z Krystof: There Are Many Academias
2021-05-06T07:55:11Z p_l: Nilby: design wise it's IMO very good
2021-05-06T07:55:28Z p_l: Nilby: the problem is more in management of development
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2021-05-06T07:55:53Z p_l: so you get cases like ReFS "forking" NTFS driver because of fear of modifying working code
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2021-05-06T07:56:22Z moon-child: nt has essential issues
2021-05-06T07:56:31Z moon-child: like i/o and process init being slow
2021-05-06T07:56:54Z p_l: despite how NTFS logical structure makes it easy to extend (just like ZFS) while most FFS derivatives are hard
2021-05-06T07:57:26Z phoe: this is what we get for mentioning WinNT at all
2021-05-06T07:57:37Z phoe: we have somehow strayed from the true path of #lisp on-topic onto the paths of windows kernel quirks
2021-05-06T07:57:40Z p_l: moon-child: I/O can be plenty fast, especially when you go native, process init is due to different ideas on handling things in NT/VMS vs Linux, which don't really matter for lisp programs
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2021-05-06T07:59:24Z moon-child: 'go native'?
2021-05-06T07:59:46Z moon-child: my understanding is that nt's i/o is modular in a way that prevents effective caching
2021-05-06T07:59:48Z splittist: lukego: for playing with CLIME, one would work with your forks of McCLIM and SLIME?
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2021-05-06T08:01:24Z p_l: moon-child: nothing prevents caching, native referred to async I/O instead of sync wrappers, and modularity is problem mainly in the form of annoying other crap injecting itself between cache and your program
2021-05-06T08:01:53Z p_l: btw, anyone working on somewhat more universal async io for CL (preferably portable)?
2021-05-06T08:02:11Z p_l: or is that an open research question? :)
2021-05-06T08:05:51Z no-defun-allowed: I want to implement green threads in SICL. It's not portable across implementation-space, but you can make all your synchronous code "asynchronous" enough.
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2021-05-06T08:08:12Z no-defun-allowed: For now, what about ABCL on the Java 17/Loom preview?
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2021-05-06T08:12:25Z lukego: splittist: Right. If you check them out and e.g. link the McCLIM into your ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ and put (load "~/git/slime/slime.el") into your .emacs then you should be in business
2021-05-06T08:13:34Z lukego: (the idea is very much to upstream all this ASAP but I haven't really engaged with that problem yet)
2021-05-06T08:15:42Z splittist brings out his development laptop...
2021-05-06T08:18:36Z lukego pushes a few updates on his disk.. done
2021-05-06T08:18:48Z lukego: thank you o brave first user :)
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2021-05-06T08:19:24Z lukego: I've finally (?) fixed some weirdness in Emacs ignoring properties that I put onto images like mouse regions for presentations, the workaround is bizarre but it seems to work now.
2021-05-06T08:20:16Z lukego: I've also implemented like 80% of ACCEPT now. On the Lisp side you can call the CLIM ACCEPT function and it will bounce that over to Emacs and back to get you an object. the only catch is that Emacs will currently choose that object arbitrarily :). I'm looking at how to do Emacs mouse events now...
2021-05-06T08:20:28Z splittist hopes lukego's clime github name won't be flagged as pron
2021-05-06T08:21:21Z lukego: Maybe 80% is a stretch, depends how Emacs will feel about me updating the list of mousable regions on images. maybe I could look at that right now
2021-05-06T08:21:26Z lukego: yeah..
2021-05-06T08:24:53Z lukego: that handle is meant in the spirit of carefree innocent hackery, as depicted by e.g. https://www.shutterstock.com/image-vector/two-funny-cheery-exuberant-characters-dressed-114750592, but is probably a poor choice :)
2021-05-06T08:25:53Z splittist: lukego: what's the hello world to try it out from the repl?
2021-05-06T08:25:56Z lukego: (back soon, dog beckons)
2021-05-06T08:25:59Z lukego: sec
2021-05-06T08:26:32Z lukego: (with-output-to-emacs (s) (draw-circle* s 0 0 50 :ink +red+))
2021-05-06T08:27:26Z lukego is back in ca 30 mins
2021-05-06T08:27:45Z lukego: (in-package :clim-emacs)
2021-05-06T08:28:49Z splittist: have a call. Still compiling McClim...
2021-05-06T08:30:29Z waleee-cl: does anyone know how to explicitly select the gtk3-namespace with https://github.com/andy128k/cl-gobject-introspection ?
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2021-05-06T08:32:11Z waleee-cl: (gir:ffi "Gtk") has the sad property of returning the namespace for gtk4 on my gtk4-recently-added linux distro
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2021-05-06T08:38:19Z waleee-cl: ... and (gir:ffi "Gtk" "3.0") fails for reasons. While (gir:ffi "Gtk" "2.0") works peachy
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2021-05-06T08:43:01Z waleee-cl: Ah, my distro didn't link gobject-3.0 explicitly
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2021-05-06T09:27:20Z splittist: lukego: I'm getting "CLIME-ACCEPT-IN-EMACS" not found in SWANK package. (And swank-clime.lisp is essentially empty.) I'm sure it's user error...
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2021-05-06T09:33:24Z lukego: Maybe you pulled the clime branch before I pushed that? it went in here: https://github.com/nuddyco/slime/commit/f930f6473b1f4af57d561d62d6cbefd4492015a9. But ahem I see a typo in that commit so let me check and fix that now.
2021-05-06T09:34:20Z lukego: try pulling slime again now?
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2021-05-06T09:35:18Z lukego: (yeah swank-clime is basically empty, I just cargo-culted swank-media.lisp)
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2021-05-06T09:38:08Z splittist: lukego: same thing. I feel I should be loading the clime contrib somehow (but I'm not)
2021-05-06T09:38:21Z lukego: oh! yes I completely forgot that part. sec.
2021-05-06T09:40:24Z lukego: (push 'slime-clime slime-contribs) (slime-setup)
2021-05-06T09:41:11Z lukego: Sorry this is horrible for of me to have not tried it on my other computer or at least in a fresh emacs :(
2021-05-06T09:41:29Z lukego does so now
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2021-05-06T09:43:43Z lukego: splittist: okay I tried this in a fresh Emacs now and it worked - got the red circle in the repl - but also an error message that I'll take a look at
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2021-05-06T09:44:46Z lukego: (there's something funny happening where the shape is drawn after the new REPL prompt rather than before it. must be a recent goof. fixing.)
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2021-05-06T09:57:52Z lukego: I pushed a minor fix for that now to the slime branch, it's optional
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2021-05-06T10:07:16Z splittist: lukego: On the red circle example I get "error in process filter: Text is read-only", but also a black circle (and a giant cursor afterwards). So I'd call that a qualified success (:
2021-05-06T10:07:26Z lukego: hah :)
2021-05-06T10:07:51Z lukego: great perseverance! thanks and congrats! :) the fix I pushed is for that "error in process filter" glitch
2021-05-06T10:08:03Z lukego: and to make the circle appear in the right place (and not make the cursor so big)
2021-05-06T10:08:16Z lukego: can pull slime and `M-x eval-buffer' in slime-clime.el if you want that
2021-05-06T10:08:49Z lukego: black instead of red... haven't seen that one yet :)
2021-05-06T10:10:03Z lukego: if you're feeling brave you can try https://gist.githubusercontent.com/lukego/e6707cb121224a0d4092577d102a9690/raw/fba491ced67cd93a1e5c83a775054a7e01f40500/gistfile1.txt
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2021-05-06T10:10:24Z lukego: which is supposed to look like https://twitter.com/lukego/status/1389180878757273602/photo/1 including the tooltips over the presentations
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2021-05-06T10:14:22Z splittist: lukego: much nicer. But still black (:
2021-05-06T10:15:35Z lukego: if you hop into *slime-events* and search backwards from the end for :write-clime you can see the SVG code that came over. (Or indeed if you place the Emacs cursor on the image and eval '(text-properties-at (point))'.) but as you say this is already a qualified success :)
2021-05-06T10:16:02Z lukego: I'm always using absolute RGBA values so there shouldn't be any funny business about color names missing from one side etc.
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2021-05-06T10:18:06Z splittist: lukego: the svg looks right (the 100% is first for +red+, second for +green+ etc.). I'll look at the state of svg support for Windows emacs.
2021-05-06T10:18:29Z lukego: oh you're on windows? then I'd call it a major success :)
2021-05-06T10:19:19Z lukego: in the sense that this is covering quite a lot of untested ground and one might have expected much more to have gone wrong :)
2021-05-06T10:19:29Z lukego: thanks for taking this for a spin!
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2021-05-06T10:21:31Z splittist: lukego: I want it to work - it would make development of all sorts of things (including McClim) really interesting.
2021-05-06T10:21:51Z lukego: *nod* glad it's not just me thinking that
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2021-05-06T10:22:49Z lukego: btw if you want to experiment you can try pasting that SVG into a file and opening that with `C-x C-f` find-file. Emacs should default to rendering it as an SVG and then you can toggle to editing mode with `C-c C-c` to tweak and then again to see the result.
2021-05-06T10:23:55Z lukego: I've been getting all kinds of surprising results from my calls to create-image in elisp that don't make much sense so spending a lot of time looking for examples that work and trying to compare what I have to those.
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2021-05-06T10:40:07Z p_l: no-defun-allowed: green threads are a bit problematic if the system thread executing them is stopped on an external lock
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2021-05-06T10:42:01Z splittist: lukego: you need rgba, not rgb
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2021-05-06T10:42:14Z splittist: (in svg-color)
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2021-05-06T10:43:02Z lukego: oh! that makes sense. wanna send a PR? :)
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2021-05-06T11:02:53Z splittist successfully sends a PR to himself...
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2021-05-06T11:10:16Z no-defun-allowed: p_l: Let's hope you don't have external locks :)
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2021-05-06T11:11:10Z no-defun-allowed: You could have a relatively not-useless all-Common Lisp networked program, I believe. The only tricky part would be putting your faith into CL-TLS into CL+SSL/OpenSSL.
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2021-05-06T11:12:05Z aun: can someone give a short intro to usocket?
2021-05-06T11:12:17Z aun: I m trying to do thigns with it, but cannot do even simple stuff
2021-05-06T11:13:18Z jackdaniel: aun: fwiw this has "How do I..." section https://common-lisp.net/project/usocket/api-docs.shtml
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2021-05-06T11:14:53Z aun: this is has simple parts that I already figured out and too advanced parts that I m not ready for unfortunately)
2021-05-06T11:15:28Z aun: I guess the important question is -- whenever it starts listening by default it cannot do anything else (including prints) cuz its all single threaded?
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2021-05-06T11:15:48Z jackdaniel: speaking of encryption, I've always wondered how much of the complexity is due to superficial requirements and how much is required to cover all bases
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2021-05-06T11:17:15Z jackdaniel: aun: you could provide some minimal example that illustrates what you are doing
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2021-05-06T11:17:29Z jackdaniel: when you wait for input, you may specify the timeout (i.e 0 for non-blocking operation)
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2021-05-06T11:17:55Z MichaelRaskin: jackdaniel: there is some inherent complexity of needing to move forward all the way becuase of new kinds of attacks considered. Also a lot of coordination complexity because some systems won't allocate resources to use keys that are not on the edge of being too weak. And it is so much you need a kinf of sliding-window upgrade. And then it's horribly complex.
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2021-05-06T11:18:58Z MichaelRaskin: aun: accept on a socket without timeout or explicit threading is expected to be blocking.
2021-05-06T11:19:00Z jackdaniel: MichaelRaskin: sure, I'm not saying that encryption is easy, I'm wondering how much complexity comes from quite uncommon requirements
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2021-05-06T11:19:33Z jackdaniel: like this horrible push to new http protocols to gain 0,01% performance bump (which doesn't matter for folks who are not running server farms like google :)
2021-05-06T11:19:50Z jackdaniel: but I've ended starting an offtopic, my apologies
2021-05-06T11:20:59Z no-defun-allowed: There's also something about dropping connection latency by sidestepping TCP handshakes, but that's silly and indeed off-topic.
2021-05-06T11:21:28Z aun: jackdaniel MichaelRaskin okay, does IRC have code highlight or should i do pastebin or whatever
2021-05-06T11:21:34Z aun: oh no wait I know a better one
2021-05-06T11:21:47Z jackdaniel: aun: try plaster.tymoon.eu
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2021-05-06T11:22:40Z aun: theres this fancy thing https://codeshare.io/5DLXgW
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2021-05-06T11:23:12Z waleee-cl: aun:  usually it's considered bad etiquett to paste a blob directly in irc
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2021-05-06T11:23:38Z aun: whats a blob?
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2021-05-06T11:23:53Z no-defun-allowed: Does IRC require newlines at the end of each message? I don't know too much about it.
2021-05-06T11:23:54Z waleee-cl: large amount of lines in sequence, in this case
2021-05-06T11:24:17Z aun: you mean a codeblock?
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2021-05-06T11:24:36Z waleee-cl: or anyother large amount of text
2021-05-06T11:24:58Z jackdaniel: aun: instead of calling receive right away, check first whether there is input available
2021-05-06T11:25:05Z no-defun-allowed: i.e. write (write-line "PASS <password>" stream) or (format stream "PASS <password>~%")
2021-05-06T11:25:17Z jackdaniel: (listen (usocket:socket-stream your-socket)) ; will return T if there is available input
2021-05-06T11:25:40Z jackdaniel: it is in that "How do I ..." FAW I've mentioned earlier under "... check whether reading from a socket stream will block? "
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2021-05-06T11:25:45Z jackdaniel: s/FAW/FAQ/
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2021-05-06T11:26:43Z aun: jackdaniel it returns NIL so I assume there's not? Should there be always?
2021-05-06T11:27:15Z jackdaniel: if it returns NIL, then there is no input indeed
2021-05-06T11:27:19Z jackdaniel: so calling receive wil lblock
2021-05-06T11:28:47Z jackdaniel: (loop repeat 5 (if (listen …) (return (receive)) (progn (print "Retrying") (sleep .5)))
2021-05-06T11:29:06Z jackdaniel: is one way to print something while waiting
2021-05-06T11:29:43Z jackdaniel: also, you want finish-output here, not force-output
2021-05-06T11:30:02Z jackdaniel: the latter will initiate flushing buffers and carry on, while the former will wait until all data is send
2021-05-06T11:30:47Z jackdaniel: oh, you have there finish-output, I'm not sure where my eyes were looking :c
2021-05-06T11:31:34Z aun: nono, I fixed it right there
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2021-05-06T11:31:44Z aun: in your loop what is `recieve`
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2021-05-06T11:32:51Z jackdaniel: it is a pseudocode, receive is your call to socket-receive
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2021-05-06T11:33:03Z jackdaniel: and listen is the previous call I've mentioned
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2021-05-06T11:35:40Z aun: I changed it https://codeshare.io/5DLXgW -- and I think if i dont send anything it doesn't send me anything either. Also, I m getting a no-applicable-method error now on my send
2021-05-06T11:35:54Z aun: which is weird since I didn't change it and it didn't happen before
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2021-05-06T11:37:16Z jackdaniel: and where is your call to finish-uotput?
2021-05-06T11:37:22Z jackdaniel: s/uotput/output/
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2021-05-06T11:38:44Z aun: Fair! But the no-applicable method problem still stays. I posted it there as well
2021-05-06T11:39:43Z jackdaniel: I'm not sure if previously I saw the call to a macro with-client-socket
2021-05-06T11:41:17Z jackdaniel: also previously you've used format, now you try to use socket-send
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2021-05-06T11:41:40Z aun: Yeah, I m a but confused about what is the correct way tbh)
2021-05-06T11:42:41Z jackdaniel: socket-send is meant for datagram sockets (same socket-receive)
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2021-05-06T11:43:02Z jackdaniel: with a "normal" socket you probably want format and read-line
2021-05-06T11:43:54Z jackdaniel: and stream-usocket is created when the object is a stream (tcp) socket
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2021-05-06T11:44:57Z jackdaniel: I'm not sure where with-client-socket is documented
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2021-05-06T11:45:24Z jackdaniel: ah, I have it
2021-05-06T11:45:44Z jackdaniel: instead of read-line you may of course go by char
2021-05-06T11:45:47Z jackdaniel: with read-char
2021-05-06T11:46:31Z aun: okay, with char it just tries and seems nothing happens
2021-05-06T11:46:44Z aun: but at least no errors, as before)
2021-05-06T11:47:04Z aun: Look....what are the chances you know F#?)
2021-05-06T11:47:28Z jackdaniel: my former co-worker was in ave of it, that's all I know about it :)
2021-05-06T11:48:10Z no-defun-allowed: F# G# A# B C# D# F F#
2021-05-06T11:48:46Z no-defun-allowed: Nope, I'm supposed to write E# instead of F natural.
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2021-05-06T11:49:22Z aun: see,like, you know about usocket and a friend who "explains" web to me knows F# and has a small snippet of F# code that I m trying to roughly translate)
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2021-05-06T11:53:40Z nij: Hello! Anyone knows how MOP allow us to "hack" defclass, in the sense that you can put more things in it? For example, in the class in the link, there's something called :invariants - https://bpa.st/USJQ
2021-05-06T11:55:08Z jdz: nij: The hacking is done by providing a metaclass.
2021-05-06T11:55:30Z jdz: minion: tell nij about amop
2021-05-06T11:55:30Z minion: nij: look at amop: AMOP: The Art of the Metaobject Protocol, an essential book for understanding the implementation of CLOS and advanced OO. See <http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP>
2021-05-06T11:57:07Z nij: When, defclass "sees" a nonstandard metaclass, it starts following different instructions?
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2021-05-06T11:58:43Z no-defun-allowed: DEFCLASS expands to MOP:ENSURE-CLASS, which will then call MAKE-INSTANCE on the metaclass with some parameters based on the superclass list and slot list and then the rest of the arguments.
2021-05-06T11:59:03Z jdz: CLOS follows a protocol (described in AMOP), so in a sense, yes, by providing a custom metaclass (not STANDARD-CLASS), CLOS uses different implementations of generic functions used in CLOS machinery.
2021-05-06T11:59:43Z nij: Very cool! Sure, I put amop in my reading list :) Thanks
2021-05-06T12:00:58Z aun: jackdaniel anyway, this is how it looks like, https://codeshare.io/5DLXgW   if you have time/interest to look at it, I ll appreciate it. Its fine anyway, maybe someone else will help, so dont worry too much)
2021-05-06T12:01:16Z no-defun-allowed: Look at the shape that <https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL/blob/master/Code/CLOS/defclass-support.lisp#L279> generates from a DEFCLASS form.
2021-05-06T12:01:35Z nij: jdz: By the was, do you recommend me read CLOS (Keane's?) and then amop? It sounds like a larger topic.
2021-05-06T12:02:10Z no-defun-allowed: aun: Note that the F♯ code uses WriteLine but you haven't generated any newlines.
2021-05-06T12:02:39Z jdz: I did not get much value out of Keene's book, but that was a very long time ago, and maybe I just was reading it wrong, or had preconceptions.  AMOP, on the other hand, was an eye opening experience for me.
2021-05-06T12:02:46Z aun: I have...print.Should I also use write-line?
2021-05-06T12:03:08Z no-defun-allowed: Just write (write-line "PASS <password>" stream) or (format stream "PASS <password>~%")
2021-05-06T12:03:30Z jimka2001: The first lisp book I read was Common Lisp by Paul Graham, the 2nd was Keene
2021-05-06T12:03:41Z jimka2001: the third was AMOP
2021-05-06T12:03:52Z nij: jdz: How about this.. How much CLOS do I need to know before jumping to AMOP? I can write simple programs, know gen.fun and methods, know some basics combination of methods.
2021-05-06T12:04:27Z jackdaniel: amop basically explains clos, so you don't need to know it by heart to read the book
2021-05-06T12:04:53Z nij: jackdaniel:  That's uplifting to know!!
2021-05-06T12:04:58Z jackdaniel: jimka2001: clos-wise it is strictly monotonic :-)
2021-05-06T12:05:08Z nij: no-defun-allowed:  sorry.. I cannot understand what that expander is doing.
2021-05-06T12:05:16Z jimka2001: Keene was my first organized introduction to OO.. Prior to that I was really confused by using an object system in a different lisp, which was heavily influenced by CLOS but was a partial implementation which supported single inheritance and single dispatch.
2021-05-06T12:05:26Z beach: nij: Expanding the macro.
2021-05-06T12:06:03Z jackdaniel: aun: no-defun-allowed is right
2021-05-06T12:06:18Z jackdaniel: I've tried your snippet with dummy data and adding newlines makes the server answer with something intelligible
2021-05-06T12:06:24Z aun: YES HE IS, thanks a lot
2021-05-06T12:06:25Z jackdaniel: like ":tmi.twitch.tv NOTICE * :Improperly formatted auth
2021-05-06T12:06:30Z nij: jimka2001: Thanks for sharing. I will also keep Keene's book in mind.
2021-05-06T12:06:38Z nij: beach: @_@
2021-05-06T12:06:46Z aun: that is such a dumb mistake especially considering that was my first thought when I saw that code
2021-05-06T12:06:52Z no-defun-allowed: *she
2021-05-06T12:06:52Z no-defun-allowed: nij: What I am saying is to look at the general shape of the call to ENSURE-CLASS generated. That is how DEFCLASS ends up making an instance of a metaclass
2021-05-06T12:08:40Z nij: I see... a bit. Thanks!
2021-05-06T12:08:54Z no-defun-allowed: Some form like (defclass foo (bar baz) ((foo)) (:metaclass metaclass) (:random-initarg this)) ends up calling something like (make-instance 'metaclass :name 'foo :direct-superclasses (list (find-class 'bar) (find-class 'baz)) :direct-slots '((foo)) :random-initarg '(this)) from memory.
2021-05-06T12:09:02Z no-defun-allowed: Though I think I missed a step with how slots are handled. Oh well.
2021-05-06T12:10:16Z pjb: There's cl-irc implementing the IRC protocol…
2021-05-06T12:11:14Z nij: https://www.common-lisp.net/project/cl-irc/  ...
2021-05-06T12:11:30Z nij:  * (join connection "#lisp") * (read-message-loop connection) .. wow
2021-05-06T12:11:49Z Duuqnd: cl-irc is pretty good. I've never had any problems with it.
2021-05-06T12:12:15Z Duuqnd: I use it in the bot that was used as a Twitch-IRC bridge during ELS
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2021-05-06T12:12:40Z nij: Dunno how it sends message though. Not in the sample at least.
2021-05-06T12:12:40Z aun: okay to make it parallel now...
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2021-05-06T12:17:07Z Duuqnd: nij: If I remember correctly I think the method IRC:PRIVMSG sends messages to channels
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2021-05-06T12:18:13Z pjb: I've got several bot examples in https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/tree/master/small-cl-pgms
2021-05-06T12:18:32Z pjb: (botihn botil botvot)
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2021-05-06T12:24:00Z nij: I can't figure out why a stream is closed when I create a thread.. could someone helpout? https://bpa.st/L36A
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2021-05-06T12:24:45Z nij: Do I have to add with-open-file again in the lambda in the thead I create?
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2021-05-06T12:26:36Z jdz: nij: WITH-OPEN-FILE will close the file.
2021-05-06T12:27:11Z nij: jdz I put the bt:make-thread in the form of the first (and the only one, currently) with-open-file form.. so I don't see why it's closed.
2021-05-06T12:27:51Z jdz: You create a thread, and by the time thread runs the DISPATCH method is done, and the file is closed.
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2021-05-06T12:28:47Z jdz: The solution is simple: if you want to have the file open in your thread then don't close the file.
2021-05-06T12:29:25Z nij: I didn't close the file @_@.. manually. So you mean I shouldn't use WITH-OPEN-FILE?
2021-05-06T12:29:51Z jdz: I mean you should understand why the file is closed, first.
2021-05-06T12:30:40Z nij: Is it because the thread isn't fired immediately?
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2021-05-06T12:31:06Z no-defun-allowed: You can't depend on when the thread will start relative to when the file is closed.
2021-05-06T12:31:10Z nij: And within that 0.1~0.2 sec delay, DISPATCH has ended; in particular, the form WITH-OPEN-FILE has ended.
2021-05-06T12:31:21Z jdz: That's the problem with threads: you don't control when they run.  So you must ensure that your code works in all kinds of situations.
2021-05-06T12:31:43Z nij: I see. So I have better put another with-open-file form in that thread.
2021-05-06T12:31:48Z no-defun-allowed: In my opinion you should do the writing in one WITH-OPEN-FILE form, then have the thread re-open the same pathname - yes.
2021-05-06T12:32:04Z nij: That would repeat myself.. hmm lemme think is there other way then macro.
2021-05-06T12:32:38Z nij: no-defun-allowed: Ah! I didn't know you can reopen a file. Lemme see how to do it. Thank you!
2021-05-06T12:32:43Z no-defun-allowed: You could write a CALL-WITH-LOG-FILE function, then if you so please implement WITH-LOG-FILE from that.
2021-05-06T12:33:04Z jdz: nij: You're already re-opening the file.  You have :if-exists parameter.
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2021-05-06T12:34:27Z jdz: Also, yes, you should be able to use the closed stream with WITH-OPEN-FILE.
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2021-05-06T12:34:39Z ldbeth: good evening
2021-05-06T12:34:45Z beach: Hello ldbeth.
2021-05-06T12:34:53Z no-defun-allowed: (For your mis-information, I find thread creation and joining to take about 55µs on my laptop.)
2021-05-06T12:35:12Z nij: :-O
2021-05-06T12:36:25Z no-defun-allowed: But I would ensure the log is closed before the thread is started, and then have the thread open a new stream. Or even have the thread do all of the work!
2021-05-06T12:37:01Z flip214: hunchentoot even opens/closes the file each time.... so that it can be renamed (eg. via logrotate)
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2021-05-06T12:39:53Z nij: I see. Thank you no-defun-allowed jdz :)
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2021-05-06T13:15:41Z pjb: nij: the closed stream still carry some information you may want to use, notably the pathname (pathname closed-stream).
2021-05-06T13:16:19Z pjb: nij: you can just use OPEN in dispatch and close the stream in the thread  (but use an unwind-protect to ensure you will close it!)
2021-05-06T13:17:04Z pjb: nij: however, some impementations have protections against sharing streams in threads. notably ccl. You may want to read the implementation documentation about opeon and see if there's an option to deal with those cases (cf :sharing option in ccl OPEN).
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2021-05-06T13:18:36Z pjb: nij: therefore it may be better, easier and more portable  to open and close the stream in the thread that uses it.
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2021-05-06T13:22:48Z nij: I see :-) Thank you!
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2021-05-06T14:22:47Z jcowan: beach: You asked about how C++ compilers do multiple inheritance.  The answer is in Stroustrup's book, but more accessibly at https://shaharmike.com/cpp/vtable-part2/ (which is about clang, but gcc uses the same strategy)
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2021-05-06T14:31:11Z beach: That must have been some time ago, no?
2021-05-06T14:31:33Z beach: But I seem to recall having read about a two-level vtable at some point.
2021-05-06T14:32:41Z beach: What I do remember asking is whether the C++ standard requires a particular implementation.  If not, they should replace their vtables and use my generic-dispatch technique instead. :)
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2021-05-06T14:36:44Z pfdietz: I really liked the code snippet idea for SICL presented at ELS.   This should make  SLOT-VALUE as fast as struct field access in common cases.
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2021-05-06T14:43:42Z beach: pfdietz: Thanks!  I do think it has great potential.
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2021-05-06T15:13:57Z jmercouris: hello everyone, Nyxt 2, pre-release 7 is now available: https://nyxt.atlas.engineer/article/release-2-pre-release-7.org
2021-05-06T15:14:11Z jmercouris: I would appreciate any feedback about bugs since this is the final release we'll do before 2.0.0
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2021-05-06T16:01:27Z frgo: Hello all. I have that question again ... Yes, I know out there are thousands of Lisp interpreters written in C. But ... I am looking for recommendations from you people. I can use C or C++ - on ARM (this is going to be deployed on a XILINX ZYNG FPGA). So - anyone recommend a specific one? Big thanks!
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2021-05-06T16:02:37Z jcowan: you might want to use a smaller Lisp or a subset of Common Lisp.
2021-05-06T16:03:29Z jmercouris: Perhaps uLisp
2021-05-06T16:06:54Z frgo: jcowan: Yep. True.
2021-05-06T16:07:13Z frgo: jmercouris: Thx for the pointer.
2021-05-06T16:07:29Z jcowan: uLisp looks very nice
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2021-05-06T16:08:11Z frgo: Indeed!
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2021-05-06T16:13:12Z jcowan: There are some choices I would have made differently, like using defparameter rather than defvar, though in the environment they are the same thing.
2021-05-06T16:13:33Z jcowan: It is also a Lisp-1 (FEEL THE BURN), although #' is ignored.
2021-05-06T16:14:48Z frgo: jcowan: Yeah - that actually is acceptable for my pruposes.
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2021-05-06T16:21:12Z scymtym: does anybody know whether the sources of the X3J13 cleanup issues which are referenced in dpANS and included in CLHS are available anywhere and if so under which terms? the "X3J13 document archives" link on http://www.nhplace.com/kent/CL/ looks promising but seems dead
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2021-05-06T16:23:43Z edgar-rft: frgo: Tom Almy's XLISP-PLUS interpreter (original author is David Betz) is a Lisp-2 written in C -> https://almy.us/xlisp.html
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2021-05-06T16:29:07Z theothornhill: scymtym: I've been looking around as well, but couldn't find it either.  Are you working on the dpANS now?
2021-05-06T16:30:09Z scymtym: theothornhill: yes. did you already ask kmp about the issues?
2021-05-06T16:31:09Z theothornhill: No, not yet.  We've only been chatting about what to do with the dpANS itself.  Still struggling a little with how to parse the thing "easily".  Did you work on that, and if so, any progress?
2021-05-06T16:31:32Z phoe: AFAIK the issues were collected by kmp himself and were posted into CLHS
2021-05-06T16:31:36Z phoe: but they were not a part of X3J13
2021-05-06T16:31:40Z phoe: so if anyone has it, then he has it
2021-05-06T16:31:58Z theothornhill: I'll ask him then. Need to follow up his last mail anyways.
2021-05-06T16:32:32Z nij: How to hack the reader or by handling error for #'read-from-string to return (1 (:unreadable "#<:abc>") (2 (:unreadable "#<:def>"))) while reading "(1 #<:abc> (2 #<:def>))" for example?
2021-05-06T16:33:04Z Bike: you could change the reader macro on #< i guess
2021-05-06T16:33:07Z nij: Namely, I want to replace each unreadable block by a plist (:unreadable STR-OF-APPEARANCE").
2021-05-06T16:33:08Z phoe: !!
2021-05-06T16:33:09Z phoe: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/ai-repository/ai/lang/lisp/doc/standard/ansi/cleanup/
2021-05-06T16:33:16Z phoe: theothornhill: scymtym: is this what we are looking for?
2021-05-06T16:33:33Z theothornhill: phoe: scymtym at least I've found a million and two ways to parse the spec into unusable html...
2021-05-06T16:33:36Z Bike: nij: that said, in general there is no way tell where to continue after a reader error
2021-05-06T16:34:23Z nij: Oh.. I should really hack the reader macro < then :(
2021-05-06T16:34:33Z theothornhill: phoe: That looks really interesting.  I'll note down that link
2021-05-06T16:34:40Z scymtym: phoe: possibly. i don't know about the legality of just taking it from there, though
2021-05-06T16:35:02Z phoe: afaik they're in the same copyright state as dpans3, which is public domain
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2021-05-06T16:39:07Z theothornhill: phoe: Thats what I understand as well.  And if not, a suit seems very unlikely, given that most lisp vendors probably would want this to live on
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2021-05-06T16:40:42Z scymtym: phoe: looks very good. briefly comparing with CLHS, i didn't spot any differences so far
2021-05-06T16:40:49Z phoe: perfect
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2021-05-06T16:41:01Z frgo: edgar-rft: Thx for that pointer!
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2021-05-06T16:44:02Z pjb: frgo: depending on the capacity of your target, you may use ecl (which uses gcc to compile to binary). An alternative for smaller targets could be clicc, which is a CL translator to C, so you get C sources that you can compile on the target.  A commercial product is MoCL (which targets Android and iOS, but C code is C code, you could use with other targets, if you provide the run-time library).
2021-05-06T16:44:35Z pjb: frgo: https://www.cliki.net/CLiCC https://wukix.com/mocl
2021-05-06T16:44:49Z pjb: clicc could do with some love.
2021-05-06T16:45:54Z frgo: pjb: Thx! So many things to explore ...
2021-05-06T16:46:02Z pjb: frgo: another alternative, is to do something similar to GOAL: use Common Lisp to generate the program for your target. Basically, you define your DSL, and write a translator or a compiler for your target.
2021-05-06T16:47:13Z pjb: frgo: notably, writing a LAP assembler in lisp (ie. an assembler that takes sexps as input), lets you use then the lisp macro system to define a higher level language (you get the macro assembler for free from the assembler).
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2021-05-06T16:47:43Z pjb: this can be a good solution if you need to go low-level, but you want to retain some abstraction.
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2021-05-06T16:49:50Z frgo: pjb: Currently, we are exploring what we need - hence the requirement to have a REPL into a predefined set of primitives (those are generated by the platform definition file generated by XILINX Vivado when the bitstream is exported).
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2021-05-06T16:53:00Z pjb: frgo: it's mostly a matter of memory.  For a usable CL system, you would need at least 512 MB.
2021-05-06T16:53:37Z pjb: But you can use a CL  as a development environment to generate code for very small microcontrollers.
2021-05-06T16:54:06Z pjb: You can implement in CL emulators, debuggers, generators, program provers, etc.
2021-05-06T16:54:07Z frgo: Yep. We have 1 GB of flash and 4 GB of DDR3 RAM available on the board.
2021-05-06T16:54:29Z pjb: Then you should be able to run a CL.
2021-05-06T16:56:28Z pjb: ecl needs a unix system below to fork gcc, but it can also work without gcc, it has a byte compiler like clisp.  You could use ecl/gcc to cross compile binaries, and use ecl without gcc on the board for the REPL and "scripting".  clisp could be an alternative.  But in anycase, you'd need to port the implementation to the target.
2021-05-06T16:57:17Z edgar-rft: frgo: If I remember right then gilberth had a stripped-down XLISP interpreter suitable for running on microcontrollers, I don't see him here in the #lisp user list, but he's in #lispcafe
2021-05-06T16:57:24Z frgo: uLisp seems to be something I want to try. I need to do some more reading... ;-)
2021-05-06T16:57:39Z pjb: frgo: Marc Battyani at fractal concept uses CL to program FGPAs: http://www.fractalconcept.com/asp/JhHu/sdataQ0rXCq7mNwE1DM==/sdataQuEY-NQ=
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2021-05-06T16:58:13Z pjb: frgo: https://github.com/mbattyani/sub-25-ns-nasdaq-itch-fpga-parser
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2021-05-06T16:58:51Z frgo: Ah - Marc yes. I already forgot that - Thx!
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2021-05-06T17:27:37Z nij: How do I ":use" an un-exported symbol from #:cl in a package?  (defpackage nij.service (:use :cl) (:import-from :cl :print-backtrace)) ;; <= this doesn't work
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2021-05-06T17:33:22Z nabataeus: what Lisp implementation would you guys recommend
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2021-05-06T17:34:34Z jmercouris: nabataeus: SBCL
2021-05-06T17:34:36Z jmercouris: or CCL
2021-05-06T17:34:41Z jmercouris: it is all personal preference though
2021-05-06T17:34:45Z nabataeus: what's the difference
2021-05-06T17:34:55Z jmercouris: oh boy, I couldn't describe it to you in a short way
2021-05-06T17:35:08Z jmercouris: there are many differences, for your purposes as a beginner, there is no difference
2021-05-06T17:35:13Z nabataeus: do you have an essay about it?
2021-05-06T17:35:18Z jmercouris: I don't have an essay about it
2021-05-06T17:35:24Z jmercouris: nor do I know of any, maybe someone else does
2021-05-06T17:35:30Z nabataeus: unfortunate
2021-05-06T17:35:43Z jmercouris: trust me when I say, for you to be asking such a question, it is not yet relevant
2021-05-06T17:35:49Z Inline: was ccl meant for OSX/Apple archs originally ?
2021-05-06T17:35:51Z nabataeus: I don't think I'm really a beginner but I've trying to get the hang of it, I think I do understand the basic concepts of sexp and macros and such
2021-05-06T17:35:55Z jmercouris: if you knew the answer, then it would be relevant
2021-05-06T17:36:10Z jmercouris: Inline: you can look at the evolution of CCL
2021-05-06T17:36:13Z Inline: so can i expect objc/cocoa in the backend ?
2021-05-06T17:36:17Z Inline: ah
2021-05-06T17:36:29Z jmercouris: Inline: there is no Cocoa inside of CCL
2021-05-06T17:36:34Z Inline: ok
2021-05-06T17:36:39Z jmercouris: CCL just comes with a great FFI framework that allows you to interface with Cocoa/Objective-C
2021-05-06T17:36:47Z Inline: ok thank you
2021-05-06T17:36:54Z jmercouris: No problem
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2021-05-06T17:43:35Z pjb: nij: cl doesn't export print-backtrace.
2021-05-06T17:44:47Z pjb: (defpackage "FOO" (:use) (:intern "PRINT-BACKTRACE"))  (defpackage "NIJ.SERVICE" (:use "COMMON-LISP") (:import-from "FOO" "PRINT-BACKTRACE")) (eq 'nij.service::print-backtrace 'foo::print-backtrace) #| --> t |#
2021-05-06T17:45:47Z pjb: nij: and uiop/image:print-backtrace is exported from "UIOP": (eq 'uiop:print-backtrace 'uiop/image:print-backtrace) #| --> t |#
2021-05-06T17:45:55Z pjb: nij: so you just need to use uiop.
2021-05-06T17:46:07Z pjb: (defpackage "NIJ.SERVICE" (:use "COMMON-LISP" "UIOP"))
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2021-05-06T18:23:07Z Duuqnd: Well, after more work than I expected I can now plot pixels in Genera at what I think might be a reasonable speed but it also might not be.
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2021-05-06T18:38:31Z Wezl: anyone know if the f in setf stands for anything?
2021-05-06T18:42:20Z Duuqnd: Field I think?
2021-05-06T18:42:56Z Duuqnd: I know the q in setq stands for quote
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2021-05-06T18:46:21Z pjb: set form
2021-05-06T18:46:41Z pjb: (setf (car x) 42) since (car x) is a form.
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2021-05-06T18:48:17Z pjb: It comes from MacLisp: http://www.maclisp.info/pitmanual/setf.html
2021-05-06T18:48:58Z pjb: Of course, now CL uses "place" to name what (car x) denotes in setf.  It's not really a form, since it's not evaluated.
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2021-05-06T18:51:00Z Wezl: thanks pjb, Duuqnd
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2021-05-06T21:02:20Z andreyorst`: can someone explain me the main difference between restart-case and restart-bind, besides that restart-bind is uded to implement the restart-case?
2021-05-06T21:02:58Z andreyorst`: Like I understand the difference between handler-bind and handler-case, but I can't gasp this for restart-case/bind
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2021-05-06T21:07:33Z Bike: it's kind of the same thing. When a restart-bind restart returns nothing special happens, so invoke-restart returns, presumably into the condition handler it was called from.
2021-05-06T21:07:48Z Bike: whereas when a restart-case restart returns, control is transferred to the point of the restart-case.
2021-05-06T21:08:45Z andreyorst`: hm, I see. It's similar to handler-bind in that sense
2021-05-06T21:09:21Z andreyorst`: the docs make it really bizzare though
2021-05-06T21:10:28Z andreyorst`: I'm implementing condition system for Lua, and I've already did restart-case, so now I'm unsure if I really need to add restart-bind as well, given that docs advice to use restart-case in almost every situation
2021-05-06T21:11:34Z Bike: i don't think i've ever seen restart-bind used in application code, but on the other hand i don't see any reason not to since you pretty much need it to implement restart-case anyway.
2021-05-06T21:12:00Z andreyorst`: I've already implemented restart-case :)
2021-05-06T21:12:29Z Bike: sure, and how'd you do it? if it's anything like how it's done in lisp, some kind of dynamic binding of restart functions
2021-05-06T21:13:43Z andreyorst`: yeah, I'm constructing fake dynamic scope at runtime with Lua tables, and do some trickery to turn errors into conditions that bubble up this fake dynamic scope stack
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2021-05-06T21:14:04Z andreyorst`: then If I find the restart or handler, I know where to return
2021-05-06T21:14:09Z Bike: restart-bind is really very primitive. It pretty much just dynamically binds functions, like how flet lexically binds them.
2021-05-06T21:14:29Z Bike: well, if you implemented handler-bind you can't just return, can you?
2021-05-06T21:15:35Z andreyorst`: not sure if I understood the question
2021-05-06T21:15:58Z andreyorst`: I have implemented restart-case, handler-bind, handler-case, ignore-errors, and unwind-protect
2021-05-06T21:16:29Z andreyorst`: and tried porting some examples from Common Lisp, it works exactly the same at the moment
2021-05-06T21:16:42Z Bike: I mean, a handler done with handler-bind doesn't necessarily do any unwinding at all
2021-05-06T21:16:48Z andreyorst`: yes
2021-05-06T21:16:57Z Bike: So you're not "returning" to a handler
2021-05-06T21:17:39Z andreyorst`: yes, I understand that
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2021-05-06T21:18:04Z Bike: so i misunderstood your explanation, aight.
2021-05-06T21:18:12Z andreyorst`: I've meant that when handler in handler-bind calls the invoke-restart I know where to transfer the control
2021-05-06T21:19:06Z andreyorst`: the trickiest part to implement was when handler inside handler bind itself signals the condition, I spent three days debugging C stack overflows :D
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2021-05-06T21:22:25Z andreyorst`: Bike: thanks for explanations of restart-bind. I think I will leave it out for now
2021-05-06T21:22:42Z Bike: no problem
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2021-05-06T21:49:25Z jcowan: Legal question: who is the copyright owner of the dpANS?
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2021-05-06T22:35:24Z jackdaniel: jcowan: afair it was deliberely released to public domain by authors before ansi standard was accepted
2021-05-06T22:36:01Z jackdaniel: I think that this is described in detail on one of Kent Pitman website pages (don't remember which)
2021-05-06T22:36:05Z jcowan: Excellent.  The Interlisp group wants to reformat it in Interlisp style now that Interlisp is moving toward ANS CL support.
2021-05-06T22:36:23Z jcowan: I know P.D. versions were released for ISLisp
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2021-05-06T22:40:02Z jcowan: I know that Xach has it online in the original TeX at Github, and the same content is online as HTML at https://mr.gy/ansi-common-lisp
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2021-05-06T22:41:16Z jackdaniel: you may also look for the cleaned up tex source - afair the repository is called clstandard-build on gitlab
2021-05-06T22:41:40Z jackdaniel: that said you my find it by accessing cvberry.com on internet archive (for some reason domain expired and the site is not up anymore)
2021-05-06T22:41:48Z jackdaniel: good night \o
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2021-05-07T03:03:14Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-05-07T08:57:35Z splittist: have text with various fonts and colors (sic) displaying with CLIME. Now to do it properly and tidy up (:
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2021-05-07T09:26:44Z lukego: splittist: wow !
2021-05-07T09:27:03Z lukego: splittist: any major gotchas? I was scared to try it :)
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2021-05-07T09:35:30Z lukego: next thing I'm going to hack is ACCEPT by clicking on a presentation. probably on monday though. the big question I'm wondering is if we can avoid the (with-output-to-emacs (s) ...) business e.g. could (draw-rectangle ...) automatically initialize the CLIM state without needing that macro? I think it would be invoked on *standard-input* which would be a slime-input-stream. dunno. maybe wrong idea.
2021-05-07T09:35:53Z lukego: s/input/output/g
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2021-05-07T09:39:39Z easye: Could someone point me to the irc channel where shinmera et. al. hangout (#shinkuma or something?)
2021-05-07T09:39:48Z jmercouris: shirakumo
2021-05-07T09:39:49Z jmercouris: I think
2021-05-07T09:39:52Z easye: jmercouris: thanks
2021-05-07T09:40:40Z jmercouris: no problem
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2021-05-07T09:50:26Z nij: Hello, why doesn't the following work? (typep 2 '(satisfies (lambda (x) t)))
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2021-05-07T09:50:35Z no-defun-allowed: clhs satisfies
2021-05-07T09:50:35Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_satisf.htm
2021-05-07T09:50:39Z nij: Based on CLHS, it seems that it should work http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_typep.htm
2021-05-07T09:50:59Z no-defun-allowed: "predicate-name---a symbol."
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2021-05-07T09:52:03Z nij: Oh.. weird restriction..
2021-05-07T09:52:30Z edgar-rft: nij: ...the predicate <predicate-name>, which must be a symbol whose global function definition is a one-argument predicate.
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2021-05-07T09:53:06Z nij: Yes, I wasn't aware of the page CLHS:satisfies.
2021-05-07T09:53:30Z nij: But that's a weird restriction isn't it? It'd be nice if I can put a lambda there.
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2021-05-07T10:06:29Z beach: nij: Did you watch the panel discussion of ELS2021?  Kevin Layer from Franz inc said something quite good.  He said something like, it is easy for individual users to have wishes for this or that feature to be added, but we (i.e. the creators of implementations) are responsible for ALL our users.
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2021-05-07T10:06:30Z beach: Plus, users typically don't understand the implications of their wishes on the rest of the system, and it is more likely than not, especially if they are not experienced implementors, to suggest something that would be catastrophic for the overall system, in particular for performance.
2021-05-07T10:06:39Z beach: Not a direct quote.  More my memory of it.
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2021-05-07T10:07:02Z nij: Yeah, that makes sense.
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2021-05-07T10:07:21Z nij: I threw that comment out just to see if someone can offer a reason why that's not the case.
2021-05-07T10:08:14Z beach: nij: So, as a creator or maintainer of a Common Lisp implementation, I feel that it gets really boring to listen to wishes from individual users with no knowledge of language design or compiler design.
2021-05-07T10:08:35Z beach: Yes, it is well documented somewhere.  But I don't remember where.
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2021-05-07T10:09:22Z splittist: lukego: major gotchas my ignorance and incompetence, as usual.  (:
2021-05-07T10:09:41Z lukego: screenshot or it didn't happen btw :)
2021-05-07T10:10:00Z nij: As a creator of a CL implementation, do you see why not allowing lambdas in (satisfies..)?
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2021-05-07T10:11:05Z beach: nij: The people who created the standard are probably all individually both smarter and more experienced than I am, and collectively they are totally awesome.  I would have to look up the reason just as you would because I can't keep everything in my head.  But you can count on nearly every decision of the standard to be well motivated.
2021-05-07T10:11:14Z no-defun-allowed: As someone who is vaguely maintainer-shaped, I have to wonder how you would interpret a (SATISFIES (LAMBDA ...)) form.
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2021-05-07T10:11:18Z splittist: CLIM/McCLIM question  - what is the height of an empty string? Different backends seem to have different answers: 0 or line height. (I guess this is the same as: what is the height of #\Newline?)
2021-05-07T10:11:25Z no-defun-allowed: Or rather, how to interpret the LAMBDA form in the type specifier.
2021-05-07T10:11:38Z nij: beach:  I believe so! That's why I'm curious.
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2021-05-07T10:11:46Z nij: Can learn something out of this. that's why I threw out the comment.
2021-05-07T10:11:58Z no-defun-allowed: Would it be as if the name was COERCEd to a function, possibly invoking COMPILE?
2021-05-07T10:12:26Z nij: no-defun-allowed: well, the lambda should take one input, and yes just compile that function.
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2021-05-07T10:12:38Z nij: When typep is invoked, test if x satisfies that compiled function.
2021-05-07T10:13:08Z beach: nij: I much prefer such curiosity to be expressed as questions, rather than: "It'd be nice if I can put a lambda there." which sounds more like a request from a user with no experience in language design or compiler design.
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2021-05-07T10:13:56Z nij: Common' we all know CLHS is the standard.. there's no way to change it. And there are many ways to invoke a question.. but sure I can make it a more proper question next time..
2021-05-07T10:14:13Z beach: Thanks.
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2021-05-07T10:15:22Z beach: You probably haven't (yet) seen all request similar to that one that we get all the time here, so you might not realize how tired one gets of trying to respond to them.
2021-05-07T10:16:04Z no-defun-allowed: Would it be compiled every time we call (typep foo '(satisfies (lambda ...))), making it bog slow to run in a loop, or could it be cached (or compiled with the rest of the code or ...)?
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2021-05-07T10:16:33Z nij: beach:  that makes sense. I will be more careful.
2021-05-07T10:16:59Z beach: "I would like nested packages", "I would like for generic functions to be able to dispatch on arbitrary types", "I would like for EVAL to have access to the lexical environment".
2021-05-07T10:17:14Z edgar-rft: nij: CLtL2 says "lambda-expressions are disallowed in order to avoid scoping problems" -> https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node47.html
2021-05-07T10:17:35Z no-defun-allowed: Suppose we are terrible users and include a macro which does side effects as part of macroexpansion. In the latter case, should we specify that the function may only be compiled once? What if we don't use a constant lambda expression?
2021-05-07T10:18:03Z no-defun-allowed: Then how would you define when it is okay to cache? I suppose the most appropriate move would be to say it is undefined how many times that function is compiled.
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2021-05-07T10:18:27Z nij: edgar-rft:  i was guessing that too.. but cannot see an explicit problem.
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2021-05-07T10:19:01Z beach: nij: I can't see it either.  Often, you see these problems only when you are about to type the code in the compiler for handling a particular case.
2021-05-07T10:19:10Z edgar-rft: nij: you might have to ask the creators of the ANSI spec :-)
2021-05-07T10:19:19Z nij: That's what get me excited - to see one example :)
2021-05-07T10:19:38Z nij: :-) no.. I will just keep this in mind. Maybe one day I'd know.
2021-05-07T10:20:44Z nij: It says it as if using a symbol for a function doesn't have scoping problem.
2021-05-07T10:20:58Z White_Flame: no-defun-allowed: no, the user should ensure their side effects are idempotent
2021-05-07T10:21:47Z edgar-rft: nij: It might have been a problem with some specific compiler at that time or maybe it's a problem that I don't see or understand.
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2021-05-07T10:21:52Z nij: no-defun-allowed: I'd say to cache or not to cache is a general problem of lambdas without a name? That's not particular here.
2021-05-07T10:21:59Z _death: https://cl-su-ai.cddddr.org/msg01197.html
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2021-05-07T10:22:46Z nij: ANd.. Answer from Guy : https://cl-su-ai.cddddr.org/msg01196.html
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2021-05-07T10:23:54Z nij: which I don't understand.. seems to be about compiling optimization? dunno :<
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2021-05-07T10:25:11Z White_Flame: nij: it means that the types aren't compile-time constant
2021-05-07T10:25:34Z White_Flame: it effectively has to instantiate a parameterized type in his example
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2021-05-07T10:26:17Z White_Flame: and that type is merely temporary
2021-05-07T10:26:38Z nij: So.. type should be compile-time constant, that's why they disallow lambdas?
2021-05-07T10:26:50Z nij: s/should be/should better be/
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2021-05-07T10:31:47Z _death: White_Flame: well, https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2433#2433 works and as far as I can see, should work
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2021-05-07T10:33:57Z _death: it is the reason why satisfies is not that useful to the compiler
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2021-05-07T10:34:22Z _death: well, one reason..
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2021-05-07T10:36:13Z _death: cl-su-ai also contains text saying SATISFIES comes from Interlisp, and that it took a form there.. but I don't see anything like it in the Interlisp manual.. Interlisp's TYPEP took an integer for typespec.. the various types had integers associated with them
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2021-05-07T10:39:01Z nij: _death: Do you understand Guy Steele's concern?
2021-05-07T10:39:46Z _death: nij: well, the lambda has to either be interpreted, or compiled each time the function is called..
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2021-05-07T10:40:18Z _death: (not compiled, a closure created)
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2021-05-07T10:40:54Z _death: if it is interpreted, the environment must be available for interpretation
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2021-05-07T10:41:52Z _death: it looks like Maclisp also had a TYPEP, but it's more analogous to CL's TYPE-OF (so badly named..)
2021-05-07T10:42:34Z nij: _death: so..? Is the env available not available in some circumstances?
2021-05-07T10:42:37Z jdz: nij: I can imagine compiler being able to reason about type checks with symbols as predicates (for instance, when a compiler can prove a value does not change between multiple such tests).  With a lambda, you cannot compare the tests (variable names may differ, lexical environment must be proven to be equal, etc.).  But I just conjure this use case up on the spot.
2021-05-07T10:43:23Z _death: nij: declarations are a compile-time thing, so if a closure has to be created during runtime it's kinda weird
2021-05-07T10:44:57Z _death: nij: and the end result isn't useful anyway..
2021-05-07T10:46:02Z jackdaniel: making the compiler handle things like this usually ends with kludges that make it harder to get things right
2021-05-07T10:46:13Z _death: nij: when you want "lambda in satisfies" in a useful situation, you can often generate a global function with a name (say generated by make-symbol) and use that
2021-05-07T10:46:19Z jackdaniel: (and, ultimately, modify it in the future without introducing a regression)
2021-05-07T10:47:12Z jackdaniel: and the type system in common lisp is quite elaborate already for better or worse
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2021-05-07T10:56:31Z agumonkey: do you guys use threading macros (-> ...) a lot ?
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2021-05-07T10:57:19Z contrapunctus: agumonkey: I used to love them, but then I realized that it's basically a let* without local variable names acting as "comments" of sorts...so sometimes they just obfuscate code.
2021-05-07T10:57:38Z agumonkey: contrapunctus: aight
2021-05-07T10:58:10Z agumonkey: i guess my love of concise pointfree/forth-like code is showing
2021-05-07T10:58:21Z nij:  ;; How would this be better?
2021-05-07T10:58:21Z nij: (defun f (q) (eq q 1))
2021-05-07T10:58:21Z nij: (defun foo (x y) (declare (type (satisfies f) x)) ...)
2021-05-07T10:58:41Z nij: x is still not available at compile-time, yes?
2021-05-07T10:58:46Z contrapunctus: Other times I can't be bothered with naming everything so I use an arrow 🙃
2021-05-07T10:58:51Z phoe: EQ 1 is undefined
2021-05-07T10:58:58Z phoe: use EQL instead
2021-05-07T10:59:05Z phoe: but other than that, (declare (type (eql 1) x))
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2021-05-07T11:02:17Z jmercouris: I'm looking for advice about common lisp documentation
2021-05-07T11:02:26Z jmercouris: so, typically we just have a :documentation that is some string
2021-05-07T11:02:45Z jmercouris: does anyone know of any successful systems that allow for some sort of intelligent markup?
2021-05-07T11:03:01Z jmercouris: e.g. I can reference a symbol in my documentation, and then some documentation export tool does something intelligent with it
2021-05-07T11:03:17Z jmercouris: examples include CLOD and cl-org-sampler
2021-05-07T11:03:48Z jmercouris: if nobody knows of any succesful usages of this markup, I am also interested in why that might be, and suggestions for some sort of markup
2021-05-07T11:04:23Z edgar-rft: _death: thank you for the pointers to the original discussions and historical background information :-)
2021-05-07T11:04:58Z Gnuxie[m]: jmercouris: using markup won't be portable and you have to be considerate for what it will look like when someone calls #'documentation
2021-05-07T11:05:03Z no-defun-allowed: The jmercourtis had a problem making nice-looking documentation, and thought "Oh, I'll use a documentation generator!" Then he had two problems.
2021-05-07T11:05:49Z no-defun-allowed wonders why she keeps writing jmercourtis.
2021-05-07T11:05:50Z Gnuxie[m]: that being said, it would be possible to have a macro like Shinmera's documentation utils and figure out how to offer both
2021-05-07T11:06:27Z no-defun-allowed: jmercouris, when confronted with a documentation-making problem, thought to himself, "I know, I'll use a documentation generator." Now he has two problems.
2021-05-07T11:06:55Z jmercouris: no-defun-allowed: what's your experience with this?
2021-05-07T11:07:26Z no-defun-allowed: jmercouris: My experience is that instead I wrote my own documentation in Markdown, then because I wanted a nice book, I ported to TeX. Then that made for a poor website, so I ported to Scribble.
2021-05-07T11:07:48Z jmercouris: I see
2021-05-07T11:08:00Z jmercouris: am I correct in thinking that you are from Australia, or am I confusing you with some one else?
2021-05-07T11:08:04Z contrapunctus: jmercouris, no-defun-allowed: how about making a literate program using Org?
2021-05-07T11:08:10Z no-defun-allowed: That is true, yes.
2021-05-07T11:08:31Z jmercouris: Right, and you just graduated university?
2021-05-07T11:08:45Z no-defun-allowed: contrapunctus: The problem for me has consistently been that introducing the protocol and the code feel like they should be done in different orders.
2021-05-07T11:09:03Z Shinmera: Gnuxie[m]: indeed. I think shka_ (or someone else) already did exactly this.
2021-05-07T11:09:07Z no-defun-allowed: jmercouris: No, I transferred and I'm in a weird superposition which is mostly in first year. Let's say I have 7/8 of a year down though.
2021-05-07T11:09:22Z jmercouris: OK, I will take your advice with a grain of salt
2021-05-07T11:09:38Z jmercouris: Gnuxie[m]: that is a good point!
2021-05-07T11:10:13Z no-defun-allowed: contrapunctus: Also in my very specific sitation, I want to write my implementation with a restrictive license, but the specification with a permissive one. So tangling the two would get legally tangled too.
2021-05-07T11:10:50Z jmercouris: You can use a 'licenses' directory which specifies what is licensed under what, but intermingling licenses in the same file is indeed messsy
2021-05-07T11:11:04Z no-defun-allowed: jmercouris: Take a look at <https://theemacsshibe.gitlab.io/documentation/> for the output of this approach.
2021-05-07T11:12:02Z jmercouris: it works pretty well, I will grant you that
2021-05-07T11:12:18Z jmercouris: I would like a single point of truth though... I don't want to make discrete sources
2021-05-07T11:12:46Z no-defun-allowed: You also have the case that a documentation string lies about what the code it documents does.
2021-05-07T11:12:58Z contrapunctus: jmercouris: I use literate-elisp for Elisp, and there's literate-lisp for CL
2021-05-07T11:13:24Z no-defun-allowed: If there is a discrepancy, I look at what I wrote down in the book, a documentation string if present, and the implementation, and decide which I meant to write. Usually it's what's in the book, and that is usually because it makes the most sense.
2021-05-07T11:13:30Z contrapunctus: jmercouris: so no tangling necessary, load the Org file as code directly.
2021-05-07T11:13:40Z jmercouris: contrapunctus: indeed
2021-05-07T11:14:06Z no-defun-allowed: That is to say that intentionally accidentally forgetting implementation details leads to documentation which convinces you to remove the painful details.
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2021-05-07T11:15:59Z nij: Wait.. people really use org to write codes?
2021-05-07T11:16:06Z nij: literate-lisp......?!
2021-05-07T11:16:21Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, literate programming is a thing people do, and you can do it with org-mode.
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2021-05-07T11:42:55Z splittist: lukego: https://snipboard.io/QA0RcM.jpg
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2021-05-07T11:46:17Z lukego: 😍
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2021-05-07T11:56:21Z splittist: still much to do https://snipboard.io/7G80oa.jpg
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2021-05-07T13:24:17Z gendl: Hi, how do I call Common Lisp from emacs lisp with Slime?
2021-05-07T13:25:11Z beach: ?  You would have a REPL buffer as soon as you start SLIME.  No?
2021-05-07T13:25:29Z beach is probably misunderstanding, as usual.
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2021-05-07T13:32:38Z edgar-rft: gendl: I would do C-h k RET in the slime-repl-buffer and then track down how slime sends the code to CL.
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2021-05-07T13:48:06Z jackdaniel: gendl: (slime-eval '(cl:list 1 2 3)) basically
2021-05-07T13:50:23Z gendl: jackdaniel: perfect, thanks! I was on a fascinating journey through slime-repl.el and got as far as swank-repl:listener-eval and was trying to unwind what slime-rex is doing...
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2021-05-07T13:50:44Z gendl: you've presented me with a wormhole to the exit
2021-05-07T13:51:11Z gendl: as fascinating as that journey was...
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2021-05-07T13:56:13Z edgar-rft: hmm, slime-eval signals errors if CL returns unreadable #<...> objects
2021-05-07T13:56:38Z gendl: all I need is to make CL load a file.
2021-05-07T13:57:21Z edgar-rft: nontheless, thanx-a-lot to jackdaniel :-)
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2021-05-07T13:58:33Z gendl: I need it to load the swank portion of my slime extension called "glime.el" before load-file'ing the glime.el itself.
2021-05-07T13:58:53Z gendl: the swank portion being glime.lisp.
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2021-05-07T14:00:19Z edgar-rft: glime sounds like a ghostbuster's monster :-)
2021-05-07T14:00:20Z jackdaniel: sure
2021-05-07T14:00:45Z jackdaniel: so we have clime, glime, slime; the great unification portability layer will be called .lime
2021-05-07T14:07:25Z gendl: I found out we need cl:  in front of CL symbols in the form to be evaluated.
2021-05-07T14:09:12Z gendl: (slime-eval `(cl:when (cl:find-package :gendl) (cl:funcall (cl:read-from-string "gendl:load-glime"))))
2021-05-07T14:10:49Z gendl: and (slime-eval `(cl:when (cl:find-package #:gendl) (cl:funcall (cl:read-from-string "gendl:load-glime")))) does not work.
2021-05-07T14:11:24Z gendl: anyway, I got what I needed. Thank you gentlemen.
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2021-05-07T14:33:07Z lukego: gendl: you can also look in *slime-events* buffer to see the socket messages back and forth, that sometimes helps to understand where to look
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2021-05-07T14:50:29Z gendl: lukego: 🙏
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2021-05-07T14:58:58Z gendl: lukego: btw I am eager to check out clime.
2021-05-07T14:59:14Z gendl: thanks for your ELS presentation
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2021-05-07T15:02:17Z nij: gendl which talk is that?
2021-05-07T15:02:31Z gendl: It may have been a lightning talk.
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2021-05-07T15:05:51Z beach: It was.  Day 2.
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2021-05-07T15:14:03Z lowIQflatearther: are there any lisp web tools for build e commerce ontp systems? https://www.bivio.biz/bp/bOP
2021-05-07T15:14:08Z lowIQflatearther: OLTP
2021-05-07T15:14:28Z nij: I like your nik.
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2021-05-07T15:14:50Z lowIQflatearther: thx
2021-05-07T15:15:01Z lowIQflatearther: I have to let go thinking I am smart this year
2021-05-07T15:15:06Z lowIQflatearther: It's been liberating
2021-05-07T15:15:34Z lowIQflatearther: postgresql baned me I hate that
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2021-05-07T15:16:15Z lowIQflatearther: What is the busiest OTLP lisp app or website?
2021-05-07T15:16:40Z lowIQflatearther: I haerd that the stock market in Norway runs on prolog and has many many transactions
2021-05-07T15:16:44Z lowIQflatearther: per second
2021-05-07T15:16:58Z lowIQflatearther: my new goal is to be wily
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2021-05-07T15:46:30Z pjb: lowIQflatearther: depends on what you mean by lisp app.
2021-05-07T15:47:37Z pjb: lowIQflatearther: https://github.com/mbattyani/sub-25-ns-nasdaq-itch-fpga-parser
2021-05-07T15:47:53Z pjb: lowIQflatearther: http://www.fractalconcept.com/asp/m4$u/sdataQvctRqSQMNXhDM==/sdataQuEY-NQ=
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2021-05-07T15:50:16Z lowIQflatearther: neither of those look like e commerce oltp
2021-05-07T15:51:26Z lowIQflatearther: hmm reading further maybe are? fgpa stock market hmmmm
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2021-05-07T15:51:55Z lowIQflatearther: itch protocall
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2021-05-07T16:04:48Z lowIQflatearther: http://www.fractalconcept.com/asp/asdataQuEXZkvXCs3qnNcICX==   http://www.hpcplatform.com/(broken link)
2021-05-07T16:04:53Z gendl: lowIQflatearther: I'm in the process of spinning up this:  https://payments.common-lisp.net/printshop
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2021-05-07T16:05:13Z lowIQflatearther: fgpa is like some kind of customizable computer?
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2021-05-07T16:05:44Z gendl: and that printshop is running on CCL with portableallegroserve
2021-05-07T16:06:06Z White_Flame: lowIQflatearther: it's basically software-defined digital circuits
2021-05-07T16:07:51Z lowIQflatearther: so you made a lisp website but it is not a busy OLTP app?
2021-05-07T16:08:22Z lowIQflatearther: how long have you known lisp? how long to learn tools?
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2021-05-07T16:08:44Z gendl: well it's doing online transaction processing if by that you mean credit card etc.
2021-05-07T16:08:52Z gendl: I'm not sure your definition of busy.
2021-05-07T16:09:07Z lowIQflatearther: cool I meant something with 1,000s of user same time
2021-05-07T16:09:08Z gendl: I would tall this a proof-of-concept at this juncture.
2021-05-07T16:09:20Z lowIQflatearther: was the credit card processing part hard to setup?
2021-05-07T16:09:38Z gendl: well the scaling would be a matter of a certain amount of engineering
2021-05-07T16:09:49Z gendl: the credit card part is using Stripe and in principle is not hard to set up.
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2021-05-07T16:10:26Z gendl: I've known lisp for a long time but this is done with a framework which I would hope wouldn't take so long to learn.
2021-05-07T16:10:47Z gendl: as part of making that printshop I've also been cleaning up and fixing bugs in the framework along the way.
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2021-05-07T16:12:24Z gendl: the printshop code itself is MIT licensed but not quite released to the public yet. The framework is called Gendl and that is AGPL licensed.
2021-05-07T16:13:43Z gendl: I've worked on other CL-based systems which do handle hundreds of hits per second so I would expect the same scaling techniques could be used with this if needed.
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2021-05-07T16:15:15Z gendl: lowIQflatearther: what is your background with Lisp? what drew you to ask this question?
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2021-05-07T16:20:42Z lowIQflatearther: I have slightly played with lisp....
2021-05-07T16:21:14Z lowIQflatearther: I have looked around at lisp web tools and lisp seems powerful...
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2021-05-07T16:24:56Z lowIQflatearther: https://github.com/rabbibotton/clog this seems interesting
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2021-05-07T16:31:07Z gendl: wow indeed it does.
2021-05-07T16:32:36Z lowIQflatearther: gendl: what is the best way to learn lisp?
2021-05-07T16:32:48Z lowIQflatearther: The goal is to make money
2021-05-07T16:33:00Z lowIQflatearther: While replacing java and .net which I hate
2021-05-07T16:33:07Z lowIQflatearther: I also hate salesforce
2021-05-07T16:33:08Z lowIQflatearther: :(
2021-05-07T16:33:25Z lowIQflatearther: Maybe I waste too much energy is disliek and hate...
2021-05-07T16:34:05Z lotuseater: no hate against Java and .net is ok :D
2021-05-07T16:34:41Z gendl: well I'm very likely biased but I would advise learning a higher level framework such as https://common-lisp.net/gendl/gendl but some may opine that it would be better to learn raw CL first.
2021-05-07T16:35:34Z gendl: but gendl still doesn't have a really smooth onboarding story - so my advice is more in principle than maybe practical at this junction
2021-05-07T16:35:48Z lowIQflatearther: that link won't open..
2021-05-07T16:35:49Z lowIQflatearther: hmm
2021-05-07T16:36:01Z gendl: oh sorry https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/gendl/gendl
2021-05-07T16:36:22Z lotuseater: yes, lowIQflatearther there are much less books but those are way better
2021-05-07T16:37:16Z gendl: that clog looks super interesting but I think it's not really for "web" development -- it's for making full-blown GUIs and letting them be rendered in a web browser.
2021-05-07T16:38:39Z gendl: with gendl you get dependency-tracking in the server side which works with Ajax to keep track of the html page state and which sections need to be refreshed when things are changed.  so you can do react-like stuff but without any client-side programming .
2021-05-07T16:40:47Z lowIQflatearther: react meaning the javascript lib where it has like popup input menu
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2021-05-07T16:42:00Z gendl: like when you choose a number of prints on that printshop, the data entry form appears on the page -- that's using Ajax behind the scenes but the CL code on the server side is just a declarative conditional which computes the data entry section of the page -- something like `(data-entry-section (when <the number of prints is greater than zero>  <the data-entry-section lhtml rendering>))
2021-05-07T16:42:14Z gendl: `(data-entry-section (when <the number of prints is greater than zero>  <the data-entry-section lhtml rendering>))`
2021-05-07T16:42:46Z gendl: react meaning when the user changes one control on the page, the rest of the page updates accordingly without any explicit procedural code telling it to do so.
2021-05-07T16:43:04Z gendl: react is a framework which lets you set up those relationships declaratively (in Javascript)
2021-05-07T16:43:16Z lowIQflatearther:  pjb: looks hard core
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2021-05-07T16:44:33Z gendl: what looks hard core
2021-05-07T16:44:41Z lowIQflatearther: gendl: so the single page node app thing is not just hype? like devops and agile?  I hate offshoreing programing too  I say ban that crap and boot foriegners liek h1bvisa
2021-05-07T16:44:48Z lowIQflatearther: but Im low iq flat earther
2021-05-07T16:45:18Z lowIQflatearther: declaratively   what is good about declaring?
2021-05-07T16:45:40Z irc_user: SPAs are cool. I've been looking for some good lisp options but there aren't that many.
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2021-05-07T16:45:49Z gendl: some folks feel that declarative programming is simpler and easier to debug than procedural programming.
2021-05-07T16:45:59Z gendl: what is a SPA
2021-05-07T16:46:07Z irc_user: single page application
2021-05-07T16:46:21Z lowIQflatearther: another acornym   curse the gods
2021-05-07T16:46:28Z irc_user: something the typical react user would make.
2021-05-07T16:46:56Z gendl: ok SPA - I guess that is what I do mostly although I don't think of it as anything special really
2021-05-07T16:47:05Z lowIQflatearther: how about instead of javascript we just use server side lisp
2021-05-07T16:47:16Z gendl: that's what I'm saying exactly!
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2021-05-07T16:48:13Z Jachy: There's exactly one Lisp SPA framework I heard about a while back that seemed to be getting close to replicate where ClojureScript was in 2014 with Figwheel (which is still ahead of modern JS stacks, many of which have gone the opposite way from interactive development and towards Typescript)
2021-05-07T16:48:14Z gendl: yesterday I got lectured by a frontend developer that m server-side approach is "wrong" and this kind of thing "should" be done client side with js.
2021-05-07T16:48:39Z gendl: Jachy: are you taking about client-side?
2021-05-07T16:48:42Z Jachy: Yes
2021-05-07T16:48:56Z irc_user: that's odd because server side rendering was/is a hot topic for react
2021-05-07T16:49:06Z irc_user: they were calling it isomorphic/universal or whatever
2021-05-07T16:49:10Z irc_user: it's all just words lol
2021-05-07T16:49:27Z gendl: well I guess I'm making assumptions about what react actually is. I admit I've never looked at it in detail.
2021-05-07T16:49:43Z irc_user: ClojureScript  + Reagent + Reframe is really the only thing I found for client side lisp apps
2021-05-07T16:49:44Z gendl: Jacy: I'm talking about server side and so is lowIQflatearther, I believe.
2021-05-07T16:49:45Z lowIQflatearther: my idea is this    1   seelct things to act on  2 choose actions maybe many 3 choose list of targets       for example I hate how in gmail I get 40 recrutier emails, I would love to 1 choose all recrutiers who emailed me, 2 choose a resume and write a littel somethign to them 3 send   but in other scenaritos it would be like 1 choose 50 role playign game fiel 2 choose to email them and save them in
2021-05-07T16:49:51Z lowIQflatearther: new flder 3 choose liist of people to email the fiels and send
2021-05-07T16:49:54Z Jachy: server-side rendering == sending mostly baked HTML down the wire, just like we all did before modern JS frameworks.
2021-05-07T16:49:54Z Jachy: isomorphic == they can re-use some of the same JS code on the front-end as on the backend (e.g. Node server)
2021-05-07T16:50:02Z lowIQflatearther: :)
2021-05-07T16:50:42Z gendl: lowIQflatearther:  I think that's getting a bit specific for this discussion.
2021-05-07T16:51:06Z lowIQflatearther: soorry go on
2021-05-07T16:51:10Z gendl: server-side rendering is entirely sending baked HTML down the wire. But with Ajax it can be done in a fine-grained manner.
2021-05-07T16:51:43Z gendl: and a declarative Lisp based framework such as Gendl can help a lot to keep track of which bits need to be sent and which not.
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2021-05-07T16:52:04Z gendl: yes, it's harkening back to the olden times when web was mainly a server-side tech.
2021-05-07T16:52:51Z gendl: I suppose I'm old-school in that sense. I've watched  the web from its inception and watched the client-side ecosystem metastasize into the monster it is today.
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2021-05-07T16:53:12Z lowIQflatearther: I don't get why client side was ever seen as good.  Gimmick to sell more stuff?  and half those javascript windows fail in flaky way and have to be reponed which slows user down
2021-05-07T16:53:17Z lowIQflatearther: flaky as a phone app
2021-05-07T16:53:43Z lowIQflatearther: I think client side helps big places track you
2021-05-07T16:53:47Z lowIQflatearther: is whats going on
2021-05-07T16:53:50Z gendl: that too.
2021-05-07T16:53:51Z lowIQflatearther: surveillence
2021-05-07T16:54:00Z gendl: you're not wrong.
2021-05-07T16:54:04Z lowIQflatearther: ;)
2021-05-07T16:54:15Z lowIQflatearther: I love the few times in my life someone tell me that
2021-05-07T16:54:27Z lowIQflatearther: 99% with my family n friend I am wronnnnnnnnggg
2021-05-07T16:54:28Z lowIQflatearther: lol
2021-05-07T16:54:45Z lowIQflatearther: of course I think they are taseless and wrong
2021-05-07T16:54:59Z pjb: lowIQflatearther: there are commercial web site implemented in Common Lisp. On of them was ViaWeb, bought by Yahoo! re-implemented in C++.
2021-05-07T16:55:08Z lowIQflatearther: ok so is your web framework making money and helping people with awesome web gui?
2021-05-07T16:55:20Z pjb: lowIQflatearther: there are other examples, but I don't know if they're high load.
2021-05-07T16:55:40Z lowIQflatearther: oow that reminds me of a paul graham thing I read one time....yeah!!! no SQL db neede wither jsut files!  AWESOME
2021-05-07T16:55:53Z pjb: lowIQflatearther: this IS Paul Graham's thing!
2021-05-07T16:56:04Z Jachy: _why quote: "When you don't create things, you become defined by your tastes rather than ability. Your tastes only narrow & exclude people. So create."
2021-05-07T16:56:06Z lowIQflatearther: I think they sidestepped scaling by simply have sets of customers on a new box  and got cheap freebsd box
2021-05-07T16:56:51Z lowIQflatearther: when he said the app forked a lisp interpreter that then had a conversation with the client I was like damn this guy jsut solved concurrency by cheating in wily way  SO AWESOME
2021-05-07T16:57:05Z lowIQflatearther: he said eh fked continuations with closures
2021-05-07T16:57:13Z lowIQflatearther: I felt rEALLY dumb reading it
2021-05-07T16:57:17Z lowIQflatearther: but i gave me hope
2021-05-07T16:58:01Z lowIQflatearther: same feeling when I watch chuck moore of forth fame
2021-05-07T16:58:35Z lowIQflatearther: its like get input    break into pieces  aissign to variable  put in lisp or hash    then write queries to get what want
2021-05-07T16:58:52Z lowIQflatearther: I can imagine being able to do it.
2021-05-07T16:59:01Z lowIQflatearther: esp since HTML forms are part of HTML eh
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2021-05-07T16:59:49Z lowIQflatearther: the thing like a file manager where you can select all by holding shift key then hold CTL to uncheck a few of say the 40 things  THATS what I want to know is it part of HTML
2021-05-07T17:00:17Z lowIQflatearther: like chooce top item hold shift choose bttom item so all chosen
2021-05-07T17:00:24Z lowIQflatearther: then hold ctl and get rid fo say item 14
2021-05-07T17:00:38Z lowIQflatearther: then copy move to new fodler paste
2021-05-07T17:00:51Z lowIQflatearther: but then instead of jsut copy maybe email or do other things
2021-05-07T17:01:13Z lowIQflatearther: did he ever open source the orig lisp viaweb?
2021-05-07T17:01:17Z lowIQflatearther: would be interesting
2021-05-07T17:02:44Z lowIQflatearther: cl-prevayler turned me on too
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2021-05-07T17:03:36Z irc_user: Sounds like you want a client-side SPA :P
2021-05-07T17:04:31Z lowIQflatearther: well in php I could do that on some php site I was on in like long ago times
2021-05-07T17:04:41Z lowIQflatearther: gogole drive not even yet to that level
2021-05-07T17:05:03Z lowIQflatearther: its like we get new buzzword the the ability to indicate what I want on web is regressing liek dumbing people down on phone apps
2021-05-07T17:05:06Z lowIQflatearther: barf
2021-05-07T17:05:10Z gendl: client-side has its place.
2021-05-07T17:05:26Z lowIQflatearther: radio button I think was term
2021-05-07T17:05:39Z lowIQflatearther: checkbox is what I always thought
2021-05-07T17:05:47Z gendl: but when you start talking about "one framework to rule them all" then client-side becomes a swamp in my opionion.
2021-05-07T17:05:47Z irc_user: Correct me if I'm wrong but to highlight HTML elements dynamically you need javascript running client-side.
2021-05-07T17:05:52Z lotuseater: yes i thought it is for not having to ask and wait for the server to do something
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2021-05-07T17:06:25Z irc_user: Well, CSS if you don't actually want the functionality of what he's saying.
2021-05-07T17:07:28Z lowIQflatearther: doesnt HTML itself have radio button  then choose then click send and it all goes back to server gets read at data and BOOM
2021-05-07T17:08:24Z lowIQflatearther: https://www.w3schools.com/tags/att_input_type_checkbox.asp
2021-05-07T17:08:28Z lowIQflatearther: LOl @asp
2021-05-07T17:08:35Z lowIQflatearther: LOL at asp on the w3c
2021-05-07T17:08:39Z lowIQflatearther: we are screwed
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2021-05-07T17:10:17Z nij: Any example of a macro that'd not be great if it were written in a function?
2021-05-07T17:10:50Z beach: "in" a function?
2021-05-07T17:11:31Z lotuseater: nij, if the macro isn't well written ^^ eg not using gensyms
2021-05-07T17:13:09Z beach: nij: You mean a macro that would be great only if used outside any function?
2021-05-07T17:13:12Z nij: s/in/as/
2021-05-07T17:13:13Z lowIQflatearther: What is a gensym?
2021-05-07T17:13:20Z beach: nij: COND.
2021-05-07T17:13:27Z beach: nij: WHEN
2021-05-07T17:13:45Z beach: nij: UNLESS, OR, AND
2021-05-07T17:13:54Z lotuseater: lowIQflatearther: it's a way to not have symbol name clashing
2021-05-07T17:14:23Z Jachy: What lowIQflatearther is asking for either has to be done in JS or implemented by the browser. HTML doesn't and shouldn't specify such high level interactive behavior... But fun fact, classic HTML tables do support something like this. You can ctrl+click a cell, ctrl+click another cell, ctrl+click and drag to select multiple cells/rows, ctrl+click a selected one to deselect, and ctrl+c to copy the cell data of selected cells.
2021-05-07T17:15:36Z Jachy: (But you don't specify that behavior, it just comes for free with the browser's implementation of HTML tables. If you didn't have it, you could add it with external JS.)
2021-05-07T17:15:43Z lotuseater: nij: PUSH, POP, ... :D or DEFUN itself
2021-05-07T17:16:07Z nij: Why can't you write cond in a function?
2021-05-07T17:16:14Z beach: nij: Try it.
2021-05-07T17:16:16Z nij: as a function
2021-05-07T17:16:39Z phoe: nij: same reason why you can't write IF as a function
2021-05-07T17:16:41Z beach: First of all, the clause syntax would be illegal as arguments.
2021-05-07T17:16:58Z phoe: plus additional syntax requirements, as beach mentioned
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2021-05-07T17:17:21Z lotuseater: and a function evaluates its given arguments before doing something else
2021-05-07T17:17:47Z phoe: nij: remember (my-if x (print 42) (print 24))?
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2021-05-07T17:20:50Z nij: I'm actually looking for an example to showcase why lisp macro is better than macros in other langs.
2021-05-07T17:21:26Z Jachy: Just link to loop
2021-05-07T17:21:47Z nij: Writing my-cond as a function would requires many quotes (my-cond '(c1 a1) '(c2 a2) '(c3 a3)...)
2021-05-07T17:21:56Z phoe: nij: also it wouldn't work when quoted
2021-05-07T17:22:05Z nij: And its uglier. But this is something that's specific for lisp.
2021-05-07T17:22:09Z phoe: (let ((x 42)) (my-cond '(something x) ...))
2021-05-07T17:22:09Z Wezl: ...and also many languages don't have quote
2021-05-07T17:22:12Z phoe: this won't work
2021-05-07T17:22:43Z Wezl: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/267862/what-makes-lisp-macros-so-special
2021-05-07T17:22:52Z Wezl: oh, you need to pass the environment?
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2021-05-07T17:23:37Z nij: Wezl: It implements set comprehension using macros.. but why can't it be implemented using functions?
2021-05-07T17:23:37Z lotuseater: if people argue with CPP macros, that's just dumb text replacement
2021-05-07T17:24:08Z beach: nij: I think we have been through this.
2021-05-07T17:24:19Z nij: beach: we've been through "IF"
2021-05-07T17:24:30Z nij: But if is a special operator.
2021-05-07T17:24:33Z phoe: nij: COND and IF are equivalent
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2021-05-07T17:24:48Z nij: Given IF, can you write COND as a function?
2021-05-07T17:25:10Z beach: nij: Try something simpler than COND.  Try OR.
2021-05-07T17:25:18Z nij: (if ugly quotes are allowed)
2021-05-07T17:25:27Z phoe: nij: as I mentioned above, quotes WON'T work
2021-05-07T17:25:36Z phoe: if you want to check, try it.
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2021-05-07T17:26:12Z phoe: if you are willing to wrap everything in closures, you can write IF and COND as functions
2021-05-07T17:26:18Z beach: nij: Write OR as a function, and we will show you how it fails.
2021-05-07T17:26:19Z phoe: but most of the time it isn't worth the hassle
2021-05-07T17:26:33Z phoe: and if you don't wrap everything in closures, it's not going to work.
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2021-05-07T17:26:47Z nij: (defun my-or (x y) (if x x (if y y nil)))
2021-05-07T17:26:48Z Wezl: challenge: write lambda as a function :)
2021-05-07T17:27:06Z phoe: nij: (my-or (print 42) (print 24))
2021-05-07T17:27:08Z beach: nij: (my-or t (error "hello"))
2021-05-07T17:27:27Z beach: nij: Compare with (or t (error "hello"))
2021-05-07T17:27:38Z phoe: beach's version is better because it has more fireworks
2021-05-07T17:27:45Z beach: Heh.
2021-05-07T17:27:52Z phoe: and fireworks might be required in this case
2021-05-07T17:28:37Z nij: What if I use non-local jump?
2021-05-07T17:28:51Z Wezl: my-or a b = if a then a else b  , except that doesn't work because haskell is statically typed (ugh) and doesn't allow kebab-case (ugh)
2021-05-07T17:28:53Z phoe: how?
2021-05-07T17:29:01Z stylewarning: To be clear, which I think some people lose in these discussions, it is perfectly OK and natural to have *an* OR-like operator that is a function.
2021-05-07T17:29:20Z beach: nij: YOU CAN'T AVOID THAT (ERROR "HELLO") IS BEING EVALUATED IF OR IS A FUNCTION.
2021-05-07T17:29:28Z Bike: it's pretty simple, nij. When you write (my-or x y), if my-or is a function, the x and y forms will be evaluated before the function is called. So nothing in the body of my-or can possibly help.
2021-05-07T17:29:29Z nij: yes..
2021-05-07T17:29:53Z Wezl: but lazy evaluation is pretty nice
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2021-05-07T17:30:02Z stylewarning: I think (defun MY-WHEN (if-this do-that) ...) is a better example myself
2021-05-07T17:30:08Z Wezl: then you can write it as a function and still get the benefits
2021-05-07T17:30:23Z beach: nij: That's how function-call semantics works.
2021-05-07T17:30:31Z beach: nij: It is built into the language.
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2021-05-07T17:31:16Z nij: I see.
2021-05-07T17:31:43Z nij: I bet other langs (without lazy eval) also have their OR implemented this way.. by using macro.
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2021-05-07T17:31:51Z beach: nij: And macros are needed when you don't want function-call semantics.  Period.  If you can live with function-call semantics, then you don't need macros.
2021-05-07T17:31:51Z phoe: hell no
2021-05-07T17:31:58Z phoe: they have their ORs built into the language most of the time
2021-05-07T17:32:08Z nij: phoe: oh dear..
2021-05-07T17:32:09Z phoe: imagine C's x || y sort of stuff
2021-05-07T17:32:15Z phoe: || is a builtin operator
2021-05-07T17:32:30Z nij: In that way, they must have MANY primitive operators..
2021-05-07T17:32:38Z beach: They do.
2021-05-07T17:32:50Z nij: So the true power of () is that normal users can extend lisp as a language easily?
2021-05-07T17:33:06Z beach: `while', `repeat', `switch', `,', ...
2021-05-07T17:33:11Z phoe: nij: more like extend Lisp syntax easily
2021-05-07T17:33:15Z phoe: that's what macros are for
2021-05-07T17:33:27Z phoe: if you don't want to treat everything as function arguments, then a macro can help you
2021-05-07T17:33:37Z Wezl: syntax is everything :)
2021-05-07T17:33:42Z phoe: if you can treat everything as function arguments, then what beach and Bike said
2021-05-07T17:33:48Z nij: Yes.
2021-05-07T17:33:48Z phoe: and stylewarning
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2021-05-07T17:34:13Z loli: or as a function makes sense if your language has a way to get lazy semantics for function calls
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2021-05-07T17:34:42Z beach: That works for many, but not all, cases.
2021-05-07T17:34:50Z Wezl: you can write C macros that allocate a closure, or define a function, or evaluate as lisp, but you lose your speed and elegance
2021-05-07T17:34:59Z stylewarning: loli: OR as a function makes sense period
2021-05-07T17:34:59Z nij: So no wonder it's quite hard to attach another lang that doesn't have ().
2021-05-07T17:35:00Z beach: If you want to introduce new syntax, you still need syntactic extensions.
2021-05-07T17:35:00Z pjb: nij: You can have some kind of lazy evaluation with thunks, ie. closures: https://termbin.com/3d4x
2021-05-07T17:35:14Z phoe: nij: what do you mean, attach
2021-05-07T17:35:15Z Jachy: nij: Yeah. If Lisp's designers forgot to include OR, or made it a non-short-circuiting one (there's no law that says or must stop evaluating expressions after something hits true, it's just very common behavior across all languages), you could easily write your own short-circuiting one with a macro.
2021-05-07T17:35:16Z nij: They can always protect themselves by saying "Oh I never need to extend the syntax.. why would you do so?"
2021-05-07T17:35:25Z stylewarning: loli: it’s usually defined at its most primitive level as a Boolean circuit as just a functional relation
2021-05-07T17:35:45Z nij: s/attach/attack/
2021-05-07T17:35:48Z loli: in the case of match, macros are very nice, as you can extend existing forms if the macro is made right.
2021-05-07T17:35:49Z stylewarning: The fact OR turned into this short circuiting thing seems like a curious artifact of history
2021-05-07T17:35:49Z nij: I cannot type today. Soarry.
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2021-05-07T17:36:01Z loli: is it a twist of history?
2021-05-07T17:36:10Z loli: it makes sense like how cons should not evaluate its arguments
2021-05-07T17:36:21Z pjb: There is already a OR function in CL: SOME  (SOME 'identity '(nil nil nil t t nil)) #| --> t |#    (SOME 'identity '(nil nil nil nil)) #| --> nil |#
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2021-05-07T17:36:23Z beach: nij: Fortran programmers used to say "I don't need functions".  C programmers say "I don't need classes".
2021-05-07T17:36:30Z phoe: loli: wait a second, that's getting weird
2021-05-07T17:36:31Z _death: you could write (defun my-or (&rest args) (some #'funcall args)) .. then (my-or (lambda () t) (lambda () (loop))) will work
2021-05-07T17:36:41Z phoe: (cons x y) should give me a (X . Y) in return?
2021-05-07T17:36:42Z saganman: loli?
2021-05-07T17:36:47Z loli: phoe: which part the extending pattern matching or the cons one?
2021-05-07T17:36:48Z pjb: OR -> SOME, AND -> EVERY
2021-05-07T17:37:01Z nij: beach: XD good point
2021-05-07T17:37:02Z phoe: "how cons should not evaluate its arguments"
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2021-05-07T17:37:24Z saganman: are you fan of Nabokov's work Lolita?
2021-05-07T17:37:32Z loli: https://help.luddy.indiana.edu/techreports/TRNNN.cgi?trnum=TR44 there is this classic paper over that
2021-05-07T17:37:33Z nij: and Lisp programmers say "I don't need a large community and extensive documentations."
2021-05-07T17:37:35Z CL-ASHOK: Joined this channel via Emacs :D So much better than freenode
2021-05-07T17:37:35Z nij: Sorry.. bad joke.
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2021-05-07T17:38:05Z loli: the original paper name was supposed to be "Cons the magnificent"
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2021-05-07T17:39:08Z nij: _death:
2021-05-07T17:39:08Z nij:  (defun my-or (&rest args) (some #'funcall args)) (my-or (print 42) (print 24)) ;; => error
2021-05-07T17:39:11Z pjb: nij: note that if you want to try a lisp that doesn't use eager evaluation of function arguments, it's a trivial change to EVAL.
2021-05-07T17:39:28Z _death: nij: that's because you should use lambda to delay evaluation
2021-05-07T17:39:30Z phoe: nij: wrap those args in closures
2021-05-07T17:39:45Z phoe: (lambda () (print 42)) (lambda () (print 24))
2021-05-07T17:39:58Z _death: nij: (defmacro delay (&body forms) `(lambda () ,@forms)) now you can (my-or (delay (print 42)) (delay (print 24)))
2021-05-07T17:40:07Z nij: Cool :D
2021-05-07T17:41:03Z _death: nij: for operators like OR, AND, IF, COND, and such this approach could work at the cost of syntactic verbosity and perhaps efficiency
2021-05-07T17:41:26Z nij: Yep. I think I understand now..
2021-05-07T17:41:34Z Wezl is making a language where that's exactly how control flow works
2021-05-07T17:42:02Z loli: Wezl: through lambda?
2021-05-07T17:42:19Z White_Flame: nij: and it's only a small step further to go full continuation passing style
2021-05-07T17:42:33Z Wezl has also found https://brat-lang.org/ (a language that already does this)
2021-05-07T17:43:25Z Wezl: loli: there are three special forms: ', #', and make-thunk
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2021-05-07T17:43:45Z Wezl: lambda is a built-in function :)
2021-05-07T17:44:00Z loli: ahh I see, yeah you don't really need anymore
2021-05-07T17:44:02Z Wezl: takes a symbol, and a thunk
2021-05-07T17:44:03Z loli: lambda is all you need
2021-05-07T17:44:03Z _death: nij: https://common-lisp.net/project/clazy/
2021-05-07T17:45:20Z Wezl: (it's not actually called  make-thunk  , it's built into the syntax)
2021-05-07T17:45:22Z loli: from lambda alone I can define all the numbers in the world, no specific number reader for me!
2021-05-07T17:46:00Z lotuseater: you mean as church numerals?
2021-05-07T17:46:18Z loli: if you want them as church numerals then sure
2021-05-07T17:46:24Z Wezl: there are numbers, it's aiming for a scheme-level amount of primitives, not like unlambda :P
2021-05-07T17:46:26Z loli: you can do many encodings though
2021-05-07T17:46:42Z loli: like you can do scott encoding, or even mendler if you feel like going out there
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2021-05-07T17:48:31Z lotuseater: there are papers by Guy Steele with "lambda the ultimate declarative/imperative"
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2021-05-07T17:50:05Z loli: yeah those are a classic
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2021-05-07T17:51:56Z lotuseater: or in a funny talk "no, calling lambda universal is too restrictive. it is omniversal"
2021-05-07T17:55:07Z CL-ASHOK`: Nice
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2021-05-07T17:56:53Z _death: lambada, the ultimate festivity
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2021-05-07T18:09:08Z CL-ASHOK`: What's everyone working on atm?
2021-05-07T18:09:45Z phoe: a new Lisp book
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2021-05-07T18:10:08Z CL-ASHOK`: topic?
2021-05-07T18:10:58Z phoe: Lisp
2021-05-07T18:11:01Z beach: minion: Please tell CL-ASHOK` about SICL.
2021-05-07T18:11:01Z minion: CL-ASHOK`: SICL: SICL is a (perhaps futile) attempt to re-implement Common Lisp from scratch, hopefully using improved programming and bootstrapping techniques. See https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL
2021-05-07T18:11:16Z phoe must be relatively mysterious, for he is still NDA-bound
2021-05-07T18:11:29Z remby: :O
2021-05-07T18:12:11Z CL-ASHOK`: SICL - is programmed in what? C?
2021-05-07T18:12:16Z phoe: oh no
2021-05-07T18:12:19Z phoe: it's 100% CL
2021-05-07T18:12:19Z beach: HAH!
2021-05-07T18:12:40Z CL-ASHOK`: CL in CL?
2021-05-07T18:12:44Z beach: Of course.
2021-05-07T18:12:51Z CL-ASHOK`: :)
2021-05-07T18:12:54Z beach: Common Lisp is the ideal programming language for things like that.
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2021-05-07T18:14:03Z phoe: SICL, after all, stands for Shaped In Common Lisp
2021-05-07T18:14:08Z phoe ducks
2021-05-07T18:15:02Z CL-ASHOK`: Nice
2021-05-07T18:15:10Z beach: CL-ASHOK`: phoe was the one who came up with the interpretation of SICL as an acronym: "SICL Implements Common Lisp".
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2021-05-07T18:15:52Z CL-ASHOK`: hehe nice one
2021-05-07T18:16:01Z lotuseater: "Forged in Common Lisp" would also be funny
2021-05-07T18:16:08Z phoe: beach: no, I actually came with the interpretation of Strandh's Invalidation of the C Language
2021-05-07T18:16:24Z phoe ducks even more
2021-05-07T18:16:26Z lotuseater: :D
2021-05-07T18:16:41Z beach: phoe: You clearly need some more rest. :)
2021-05-07T18:16:47Z phoe: beach: I do
2021-05-07T18:16:51Z phoe AFKs :D
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2021-05-07T18:44:03Z White_Flame: hmm, is there a function that takes absolute #p"/foo/bar/" and relative #p"baz/blort/" and returns #p"/foo/bar/baz/blort"?
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2021-05-07T18:45:39Z White_Flame: (plus trailing slash)
2021-05-07T18:45:52Z White_Flame: unless I'm just being dense, I don't see such a function in UIOP either
2021-05-07T18:47:15Z CL-ASHOK`: i'm terrible with this sort of stuff
2021-05-07T18:47:18Z CL-ASHOK`: but check out cl-ppcre
2021-05-07T18:47:56Z CL-ASHOK`: that said, sorry if I'm being dense
2021-05-07T18:48:03Z White_Flame: for what exactly?  If I were to do this manually, it would be appending the 2 directory pathname lists together and creating a new pathname
2021-05-07T18:48:28Z CL-ASHOK`: can't you do (concatenate 'string "/foo/bar/" relative-path)
2021-05-07T18:48:45Z contrapunctus: White_Flame: for some reason I'm unable to connect to https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/uiop.html#UIOP_002fPATHNAME but I'm pretty sure I saw something for this in UIOP
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2021-05-07T18:49:55Z White_Flame: CL-ASHOK`: well, that would take further conversion from pathname to string.  Any manual use of this is large enough to be contained in a library function, and applying relative paths to an existing one _seems_ like it should exist already
2021-05-07T18:50:34Z White_Flame: contrapunctus: I'm at that manual page, and it's been loading fine for me
2021-05-07T18:50:50Z CL-ASHOK`: White_Flame: Ah okay, now I understand. I'm currently doing via strings but I'm not one for efficiency
2021-05-07T18:52:33Z contrapunctus: White_Flame: `uiop:enough-pathname`?
2021-05-07T18:53:23Z White_Flame: contrapunctus: no, those are for 2 overlapping pathnames
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2021-05-07T18:54:05Z contrapunctus: White_Flame: hm...`merge-pathnames`? 🤔
2021-05-07T18:54:31Z White_Flame: yeah, I tried merge-pathnames* again with different orderings and it seems to do what I want.  However, the docs do not describe this behavior
2021-05-07T18:55:17Z White_Flame: hmm, yeah, I think the proper conclusion here is that yes, I was being quite dense
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2021-05-07T19:07:01Z pjb: (merge-pathnames #p"baz/blort/"  #p"/foo/bar/") #| --> #P"/foo/bar/baz/blort/" |#
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2021-05-07T19:07:14Z pjb: White_Flame: this is perfectly specified.
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2021-05-07T19:07:31Z White_Flame: yes, I know
2021-05-07T19:07:39Z pjb: White_Flame: the only thing is that I would always pass the third parameter to NIL.
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2021-05-07T19:07:44Z pjb: (merge-pathnames #p"baz/blort/"  #p"/foo/bar/" nil) #| --> #P"/foo/bar/baz/blort/" |#
2021-05-07T19:08:38Z pjb: Note that a directory pathname could contain a version!  If you use it as :defaults to make-pathname or with merge-pathnames with a file pathname, you could get a file pathname with a version…
2021-05-07T19:08:42Z pjb: So NIL.
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2021-05-07T19:15:50Z CL-ASHOK`: How do you guys manage large codebases?
2021-05-07T19:16:09Z CL-ASHOK`: I have 8 lisp files, and things are starting to get unwieldy, I forget parts of the code I wrote before
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2021-05-07T19:33:46Z Bike: well defined specifications mostly
2021-05-07T19:33:58Z Bike: since it's easier to remember "X function does Y" than the whole source text of X
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2021-05-07T19:36:07Z CL-ASHOK`: that's true
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2021-05-07T19:39:18Z pjb: CL-ASHOK`: 8 files is not large :-)
2021-05-07T19:39:49Z White_Flame: M-. is your friend
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2021-05-07T19:40:16Z White_Flame: and you are using an .asd file, right?
2021-05-07T19:40:18Z CL-ASHOK`: pjb: :-) I know....but for beginners its hard because I have some bad habits ;) Like storing functions in the wrong files cause I'm lazy to think which is the best place to put them :D
2021-05-07T19:40:27Z pjb: CL-ASHOK`: even 323 files, 152529 LOC is not really large, it's just a normal-sized application.
2021-05-07T19:40:55Z pjb: CL-ASHOK`: nowadays, there's little reason to use a lot of small files.
2021-05-07T19:41:16Z White_Flame: it's easier to have multiple files open than the same file in different places, htough
2021-05-07T19:41:16Z pjb: CL-ASHOK`: our computers have large RAM, and fast SSD, so you can have a small number of large files.
2021-05-07T19:41:45Z White_Flame: smaller files are definitely for humans, not machines anymore
2021-05-07T19:42:00Z pjb: CL-ASHOK`: the only thing is that in lisp, some definitions need to happen at compilation-time, so it is easier to have them in separate files, to be compiled and loaded, before we compile the rest. eg. defpackage, defmacro, defconstant.
2021-05-07T19:42:15Z CL-ASHOK`: White_Flame: How to use? Looks really interesting. I tried it and then typed psql::function-name (stored in package psql), but it didn't give me the doc string
2021-05-07T19:42:34Z White_Flame: M-. jumps to the definition of the symbol that your cursor is on
2021-05-07T19:42:54Z White_Flame: and so for your code, you can navigate pretty easily using that
2021-05-07T19:43:01Z White_Flame: regardless of files
2021-05-07T19:43:16Z pjb: now the grouping of definitions in logical units should be helped by tools such as emacs.  We can use ^L in emacs buffers.  But it would be nice to have something better.  Like the Smalltalk Browser (systems|classes|categories|methods) and stuff like that.
2021-05-07T19:43:42Z CL-ASHOK`: White_Flame: Mind *Blown*. Is there a way to go back to the original spot?
2021-05-07T19:43:48Z White_Flame: M-,
2021-05-07T19:43:58Z pjb: In emacs, we could tag toplevel forms (this would be mostsly done automatically from the context, but we could add or change tags explicitely) and then emacs would provide a tag browser.
2021-05-07T19:44:00Z CL-ASHOK`: pjb: I do like smaller files since Emacs has terrible scroll...
2021-05-07T19:44:06Z pjb: CL-ASHOK`: ok.
2021-05-07T19:44:14Z pjb: CL-ASHOK`: you can use registers to jump back.
2021-05-07T19:44:26Z CL-ASHOK`: White_Flame: Thanks! Owe you a beer for that
2021-05-07T19:44:47Z CL-ASHOK`: pjb: Interesting, I will check that out now
2021-05-07T19:45:04Z White_Flame: CL-ASHOK`: http://pchristensen.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/slimecommands.pdf
2021-05-07T19:45:23Z pjb: CL-ASHOK`: point-to-register C-x r SPC to store the point in a named register (one letter) and later, jump-to-register C-x r j <the-letter>
2021-05-07T19:45:54Z White_Flame: (there are probably newer cheatsheets around,but that's the one I happen to have bookmarked)
2021-05-07T19:46:26Z pjb: CL-ASHOK`: note that M-. M-, is a stack. You can M-. several times, and use several times M-, to pop back.
2021-05-07T19:46:45Z CL-ASHOK`: White_Flame: Thanks, I just saved it down :)
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2021-05-07T19:47:19Z White_Flame: hm, it doesn't have M-x slime-restart-inferior-lisp, which I use all the time
2021-05-07T19:47:47Z CL-ASHOK`: pjb: Nice - thanks for the point storage and navigation
2021-05-07T19:48:04Z CL-ASHOK`: yeah I love that function (M-x slime-restart-inferior-lisp)
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2021-05-07T20:11:44Z CL-ASHOK`: Thanks for your help guys
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2021-05-07T20:11:49Z CL-ASHOK`: Time to log off, good night
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2021-05-08T03:01:56Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-05-08T07:15:11Z phoe: morning
2021-05-08T07:15:33Z beach: Hello phoe.  How are you feeling today?
2021-05-08T07:16:08Z phoe: I think all the Pfizer side effects are gone, I'm at 100% today
2021-05-08T07:16:19Z beach: Congratulations!
2021-05-08T07:16:30Z phoe: thanks - next chance to feel ill in five weeks from now
2021-05-08T07:16:52Z beach: For dose #2?
2021-05-08T07:17:18Z phoe: yes
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2021-05-08T08:17:02Z lukego: anyone use c-mera? I'm not quite sure what to make of it yet
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2021-05-08T08:18:49Z no-defun-allowed: But why?
2021-05-08T08:21:39Z lukego: me? I'd like to do a little ad-hoc assembler code generation in Lisp at the moment, and SBCL's interface seems a bit too unstable (examples from the blogoverse didn't work), and that lead me to asmjit, which takes its inputs via C++ code. So I'm looking for a nice way to output C++ source and wondering if c-mera is more practical than FORMAT for my purposes.
2021-05-08T08:22:02Z phoe: isn't C-Mera C and not C++?
2021-05-08T08:22:07Z phoe: I mean, it's close enough, but still
2021-05-08T08:22:18Z lukego: no it does C, C++, CUDA, etc as separate modules.
2021-05-08T08:22:32Z phoe: I see, TIL
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2021-05-08T08:22:53Z lukego: but not all syntax maps so nicely e.g. x86::rax becomes (from-namespace x86 rax) which is pretty verbose and it feels a bit like non-verbosity is the main selling point here
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2021-05-08T08:24:03Z lukego: So it seems like I'll end up with my own doman-specific surface syntax anyway, e.g. simply :RAX, and at that point I'm not sure c-mera buys me anything over FORMAT especially in combination with a C++ pretty-printer like clang-fmt
2021-05-08T08:25:40Z lukego: having toyed with c-mera for ten minutes maybe I'll now try the ad-hoc route and come back if that feels bothersome.
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2021-05-08T09:23:08Z ym: Sup. How do I suppress slime's REPL buffer output?
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2021-05-08T09:27:25Z Shinmera: like, prevent anything from being printed, or?
2021-05-08T09:36:08Z beach: So instead of a REPL, it's a REL.
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2021-05-08T10:12:42Z nij: Hello! I have made a thread that calls run-program (bt:make-thread (lambda () (uiop:run-program "/some/process/that/loops" :output *sta..))).
2021-05-08T10:13:13Z phoe: nij: OK, what about it?
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2021-05-08T10:13:15Z nij: However, I don't know how to kill the looping shell process in lisp.. destroying the thread does not help.
2021-05-08T10:13:55Z nij: In particular, the process is ffmpeg. I can kill it by `pkill ffmpeg`.. but I hope to do that in a lispy way.
2021-05-08T10:14:12Z phoe: if it doesn't stop on stream EOF, then sending it a unix signal of sorts might be needed
2021-05-08T10:14:32Z nij: Oh.. so PID must be recorded when calling run-program?
2021-05-08T10:15:01Z phoe: I think so, yes - and AFAIK then RUN-PROGRAM and/or LAUNCH-PROGRAM is capable of returning a process information sort of structure
2021-05-08T10:15:04Z phoe: and that includes PID
2021-05-08T10:15:09Z nij: Can I "bind" the thread and the pid, so that when the thread dies, the program dies?
2021-05-08T10:15:20Z phoe: it's the other way around
2021-05-08T10:15:31Z phoe: the program quits, *then* the thread finishes
2021-05-08T10:15:48Z phoe: if you mean bt:destroy-thread then it *won't* work - it is only supposed to be used as a last measure
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2021-05-08T10:15:51Z jdz: nij: For that you need process groups or somesuch.
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2021-05-08T10:16:22Z jdz: nij: You may want to check the :WAIT parameter to RUN-PROGRAM.
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2021-05-08T10:17:33Z nij: jdz:  what is a process group?
2021-05-08T10:18:11Z jdz: nij: Something you should read about if you are going to do UNIX process management.
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2021-05-08T10:18:55Z nij: I see. I think uiop doesn't have that much. But sbcl does.. I will use sb's instead.
2021-05-08T10:19:16Z nij: No :wait, no mentioning process group.. etc https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/uiop.html
2021-05-08T10:20:05Z nij: Goodbye, portable code ;)
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2021-05-08T10:22:02Z jdz: nij: Nowadays you might want to skip straight to cgroups (if you're on reasonably recent Linux, that is).
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2021-05-08T10:23:55Z nij: Can't find what cgroups are except a youtube vid. Not in sbcl's manual either.
2021-05-08T10:24:11Z jdz: Of course, they're a Linux thing.
2021-05-08T10:24:25Z jdz: Nothing about process management is (or can be) lisp specific.
2021-05-08T10:24:46Z jdz: You really did not find https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cgroups ?
2021-05-08T10:25:05Z Nilby: (defcfun kill :int (pid pid-t) (signal :int)))
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2021-05-08T10:26:01Z nij: jdz:  I bound cgroups with lisp/common lisp .. etc
2021-05-08T10:26:25Z nij: and started searching "control groups common lisp", "control groups sbcl".. etc.
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2021-05-08T10:27:11Z nij: Thanks, I will look into that.
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2021-05-08T10:27:19Z ym: Shinmera, yes, preventing from being printed.
2021-05-08T10:27:39Z Shinmera: bind *standard-output* to an empty broadcast stream
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2021-05-08T10:29:24Z jdz: I wonder if somebody has written some fiction that features a universe (or a pocket dimension or whatever) that contains the bits directed to /dev/null and empty broadcast streams.
2021-05-08T10:29:34Z jdz: Maybe a game?
2021-05-08T10:31:58Z nij: Hmm.. though sb-ext:run-program provides more than uiop:run-program.. it seems that sb-ext:run-program does it asynchronously.. :(
2021-05-08T10:32:29Z jdz: I'd suggest to not use uiop:run-program at all.
2021-05-08T10:32:38Z ym: Shinmera, kludgy, but works, thanks.
2021-05-08T10:32:48Z jdz: Especially from threads.
2021-05-08T10:32:53Z Shinmera: ym: how is it kludgy
2021-05-08T10:33:43Z ym: Well, writing (with-output-to-string (str) (let ((*standard-output* str)) ... )) each time feels sort of kludge.
2021-05-08T10:33:57Z Shinmera: huh?
2021-05-08T10:34:21Z Shinmera: that's not what I said, though.
2021-05-08T10:34:33Z jdz: clhs make-broadcast-stream
2021-05-08T10:34:33Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_bro.htm
2021-05-08T10:35:00Z phoe: ym: you don't need to collect to a string
2021-05-08T10:35:13Z phoe: you can just discard all output - that's what an empty broadcast stream does
2021-05-08T10:35:24Z phoe: (let ((*s-o* (m-b-s))) ...)
2021-05-08T10:38:01Z ym: Doesn't suppress output in my case.
2021-05-08T10:39:57Z ym: Doh. I can just use progn with nil in the end.
2021-05-08T10:40:09Z ym: Stupid me.
2021-05-08T10:41:23Z Shinmera: or (not ...)
2021-05-08T10:41:36Z Nilby: or (values)
2021-05-08T10:41:43Z Shinmera: that would require the progn again.
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2021-05-08T11:01:11Z jdz: ym: That's not output that needs suppressing, but return value.
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2021-05-08T11:08:59Z nij: jdz: if you don't use uiop:run-program, what do you use? sb-ext:run-program?
2021-05-08T11:09:10Z jdz: Yes.
2021-05-08T11:09:27Z jdz: Or an equivalent in other implementations.
2021-05-08T11:09:55Z nij: How do you pipe then?
2021-05-08T11:10:09Z nij: By throwing the output to input of the next?
2021-05-08T11:10:28Z jdz: I don't.
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2021-05-08T11:11:18Z jdz: Lisp is not exactly suited for Unix system programming.  It can be done, but then it is all about doing syscalls.
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2021-05-08T11:12:01Z nij: I see. I will try to avoid piping as you said. If there's a need then I will do proper redirection..
2021-05-08T11:12:03Z nij: Thanks.
2021-05-08T11:12:16Z jdz: What do you mean by "piping"?
2021-05-08T11:12:48Z jdz: And what do you mean by "proper redirection"?
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2021-05-08T11:16:58Z jdz: And how was UIOP:RUN-PROGRAM helping you with this "piping"/"proper redirection"?
2021-05-08T11:19:10Z Nilby: Lisp is fine for Unix system programming.
2021-05-08T11:19:16Z Nilby: (defcfun fork pid-t) (defcfun execve :int (path :pointer) (args :pointer) \
2021-05-08T11:19:16Z Nilby: (env :pointer))
2021-05-08T11:19:49Z nij: jdz: Using uiop:run-program, I can just pass a dirty string "echo 3 | grep hi" into it.
2021-05-08T11:19:54Z Nilby: it's just the unix syscalls that suck in any language
2021-05-08T11:21:29Z nij: With sb-ext:run-program, the first argument must be a callable thing, eg "/usr/bin/echo". That restricts (afaik) one sb-ext:run-program form to one callable thing, in contrast to uiop:run-program.
2021-05-08T11:21:41Z jdz: Nilby: Yes, everything's fine and dandy until you need some magic numbers that are only available in C headers.
2021-05-08T11:22:36Z epony: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_call#Examples_and_tools
2021-05-08T11:23:08Z jdz: nij: You will also find that in that case uiop:run-program uses "sh -c", and then you're in the land of hurt if you fail to properly escape a string or a quote or, god forbid, use strings provided by the user.
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2021-05-08T11:25:13Z jdz: nij: I'd suggest to never, ever, invoke a process with a command line constructed by concatenating stings (unless you're very VERY sure nothing bad can happen, which is pretty much never).
2021-05-08T11:25:38Z nij: Oh... I see.
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2021-05-08T11:26:16Z jdz: Heh, concatenating strings in the context of unix process invocations really is akin to concatenating stings.
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2021-05-08T11:29:21Z nij: Heh!
2021-05-08T11:37:36Z pjb: ym: (setf *standard-output* (make-broadcast-stream))
2021-05-08T11:39:45Z pjb: ym: (setf *terminal-io* (make-two-way-stream (two-way-stream-input-stream *terminal-io*)  (make-broadcast-stream)))
2021-05-08T11:39:49Z nij: jdz: I've replaced a one-liner with a 20~liner, but it's much safer now! Thanks :)
2021-05-08T11:40:43Z pjb: ym: but 1- setting *terminal-io* is not conforming, and 2- it doesn't seem to work in slime-repl anyway, they must circumvent *terminal-io* and use the swank/gray::slime-output-stream directly.
2021-05-08T11:40:49Z jdz: nij: If you say so.
2021-05-08T11:41:50Z pjb: ym: note, if you want a REP, you can write your own. See for example: https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/blob/master/common-lisp/interactive/interactive.lisp#L181 and patch it to avoid printing.
2021-05-08T11:42:02Z pjb: s/REP/REL/
2021-05-08T11:43:09Z pjb: jdz: the closest to your fiction, is in Tron, where there are leaked data and free programs.
2021-05-08T11:43:16Z jdz: swank:*globally-redirect-io* is also relevant (https://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Other-configurables.html#index-SWANK_003a_002aGLOBALLY_002dREDIRECT_002dIO_002a).
2021-05-08T11:43:25Z pjb: jdz: in Tron, nothing is said of the bits that are garbage collected.
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2021-05-08T11:45:35Z pjb: The problem is "When NIL these streams are only temporarily redirected to Emacs using dynamic bindings while handling requests." This combines badly with the notion that a REPL is a continuous process. slime-repl is not.  I've posted an issue about a related subject, the + ++ +++ * ** *** / // /// variables.
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2021-05-08T12:24:50Z etimmons: nij: UIOP has two functions: run-program and launch-program, equivalent to :wait t and :wait nil respectively. launch-program returns a process object you can use to send signals to
2021-05-08T12:25:15Z etimmons: Plus, unrecognized keyword arguments to both are passed directly to the underlying function in the implementation
2021-05-08T12:26:42Z etimmons: You might also be interested in https://github.com/ruricolist/cmd/ I've never tried it, but IIRC it was received well on Reddit when it was announced
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2021-05-08T13:55:00Z jackdaniel: there is also external-program which is good in this sense that it doesn't try to do more than provide a compatibiliy layer between different implementations
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2021-05-09T00:17:54Z saturn2: is there a portable way to check how much free disk space is left?
2021-05-09T00:18:53Z White_Flame: none comes to mind, but with multiple drives/partitions, the notion needs more specificity
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2021-05-09T00:19:53Z saturn2: obviously you'd have to provide a pathname
2021-05-09T00:20:38Z ffwacom: that wasn't obvious
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2021-05-09T00:23:05Z Nilby: I have a thing, but I can't recommend it: (nos:filesystem-info-bytes-free (nos:get-filesystem-info "/"))
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2021-05-09T00:26:20Z Nilby: also (nos:mounted-filesystems)
2021-05-09T00:28:44Z saturn2: why can't you recommend it?
2021-05-09T00:32:07Z Nilby: Typical Lisp reasones: no docs, no tests, 1 user, poorly maintained, capricious developer, etc.
2021-05-09T00:32:53Z saturn2: https://github.com/muyinliu/cl-diskspace this is in quicklisp at least
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2021-05-09T01:15:34Z pjb: saturn2: in posix, you would use /bin/df with the path of a item stored on the file system.
2021-05-09T01:16:03Z pjb: saturn2: but note that file systems are unrelated to disks: a disk may contain several file systems, and a file system may be stored on 0, 1 or more disks.
2021-05-09T01:16:46Z pjb: saturn2: if you have the access rights, you could try to read the parttion table on the raw disk device, and interpret it to see if there's some free disk space between partitions?
2021-05-09T01:18:00Z pjb: saturn2: also, some modern file systems just lie to you.  For example, APFS.
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2021-05-09T01:25:32Z saturn2: yes, but none of that would be portable
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2021-05-09T01:34:59Z pjb: saturn2: indeed.
2021-05-09T01:35:12Z pjb: saturn2: remember: computers are multi-process, multi-user systems.
2021-05-09T01:35:27Z pjb: saturn2: by the time you get the information you believe you need, it may be totally wrong!
2021-05-09T01:35:46Z pjb: saturn2: another user may have allocated all the remaining space, or another process may have deleted files!
2021-05-09T01:36:28Z pjb: saturn2: so the only way to do it, and this is the big lesson of unix, and why it has been so successful compared to other OSes old an new, is that you don't want to use such query, but instead you want to do what you want to do, and wait for an error to occur if it's not possible.
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2021-05-09T01:39:06Z pjb: saturn2: you can pre-allocate a file: (handler-case (with-open-file (out "DATA:FILE.BIN" :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8) :direction :output :if-does-not-exist :create :if-exists :error) (loop with buffer = (make-array (* 1024 1024)  :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8) :initial-element 42) repeat 1024 do (write-sequence buffer out))) (:no-error () t) (error () nil))
2021-05-09T01:39:23Z pjb: saturn2: if it returns T, you know you had 1 GB free.
2021-05-09T01:39:32Z pjb: (and now you have them to store your data).
2021-05-09T01:40:09Z saturn2: in fact i have a whole computer dedicated to this one task
2021-05-09T01:40:50Z pjb: I one of my first jobs we worked on a system where the admin allocated the files on the disk track-by-track…
2021-05-09T01:40:51Z Nilby: Another lesson of unix is that doing it that way is completely unreliable, and modern reliable software doesn't. And most unix is single user now.
2021-05-09T01:40:54Z pjb: manually.
2021-05-09T01:41:17Z pjb: Nilby: but still multi-process.
2021-05-09T01:41:34Z pjb: 570 processes on this single-user macOS system.
2021-05-09T01:41:34Z pjb:  
2021-05-09T01:41:48Z saturn2: but also, there are other reasons to monitor disk usage than creating a file immediately
2021-05-09T01:41:49Z pjb: (but note that macOS allows for multiple user simultaneous logins).
2021-05-09T01:42:00Z pjb: saturn2: file system usage you mean?
2021-05-09T01:42:06Z saturn2: ok
2021-05-09T01:42:35Z pjb: Ok, ok.  It's implementation and platform dependent.
2021-05-09T01:42:43Z pjb: uiop:run-program is there for something.
2021-05-09T01:42:45Z pjb: FFI too.
2021-05-09T01:42:51Z pjb: and #+/#-
2021-05-09T01:43:14Z saturn2: i was surprised that neither uiop nor osicat offer this functionality
2021-05-09T01:43:38Z pjb: because it's useless to offer all the functions: there are an infinite number of functions!
2021-05-09T01:44:39Z pjb: saturn2: also: https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/blob/master/clisp/disk.lisp#L79
2021-05-09T01:47:32Z pjb: you can s/|postodax//
2021-05-09T01:47:44Z Nilby: The amount of things people expect from a portable O/S interface is finite, and relatively small, and I think seeing how much disk space you have is surely a useful one.
2021-05-09T01:48:03Z pjb: But anyways the output of df(1) is human readable, so it cannot be processed easily (format may change).
2021-05-09T01:48:13Z pjb: On linux you could get the information from /proc
2021-05-09T01:48:29Z Nilby: execpt my df outputs standard-objects
2021-05-09T01:48:58Z pjb: Nilby: well, try to talk to the OpenGroup…
2021-05-09T01:49:49Z pjb: com.informatimago.clisp.disk:df returns structure-objects…
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2021-05-09T02:08:29Z Nilby: I find it amusing that there's awk in lisp and lisp in awk, but a df in Lisp uses C awk.
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2021-05-09T02:43:31Z pjb: Nilby: granted.  And as I said, on linux we could just use /proc.
2021-05-09T02:44:20Z pjb: Nilby: and df itself can be implemented in lisp with FFI.
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2021-05-09T02:57:11Z Nilby: echo "df" | /proc/$(cat /proc/$$/fork)/exec
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2021-05-09T03:03:32Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-05-09T03:53:45Z asarch: One stupid question: what kind of operation can consume all the heap memory of SBCL?
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2021-05-09T03:55:25Z beach: asarch: I take it this is happening to you?
2021-05-09T03:56:24Z beach: For example, calling COPY-LIST on a circular list might do that.  At least, the standard allows for it to happen.
2021-05-09T03:56:40Z asarch: https://pastebin.com/35D3DpMe
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2021-05-09T03:57:35Z asarch: I am using cl-cffi-gtk to create the window using a Glade template file to CRUD the data from a local PostgreSQL cluster using Datafly
2021-05-09T03:58:02Z beach: I am unable to assist with anything that has to do with FFI.
2021-05-09T03:58:11Z beach: You need to wait for someone else.
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2021-05-09T03:58:42Z asarch: Since I am learning the Japanese language, I was copying/inserting some grammar information into the cluster using this interface
2021-05-09T03:58:59Z asarch: And every once in a while I got that error
2021-05-09T03:59:09Z beach: Good luck!
2021-05-09T03:59:16Z White_Flame: do you think it's legitimately taking 1 GB of heap space?
2021-05-09T03:59:55Z asarch: I think it is from the dialog operation (creating/destroying the widget)
2021-05-09T04:00:01Z asarch: White_Flame, ?
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2021-05-09T04:00:24Z White_Flame: if you're streaming data to PG asynchronously, then it might clog up in RAM?
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2021-05-09T04:01:04Z White_Flame: and same as beach, I have no idea about the effects of FFI on the lisp heap.  Assuming that any malloc stuff is outside lisp-managed memory space, I wouldn't actually suspect it
2021-05-09T04:01:34Z asarch: Well, every time the data was inserted the CPU % use increased to the infinity and beyond
2021-05-09T04:01:51Z White_Flame: then profile it?
2021-05-09T04:02:02Z beach: asarch: I strongly recommend you use a Common Lisp GUI toolkit instead.  Like McCLIM.
2021-05-09T04:02:32Z asarch: I can't. It is very abstract to me
2021-05-09T04:02:53Z asarch: I've trying hard but I still can't figure out how it works
2021-05-09T04:04:14Z asarch: top -d 1 shows the % used of the processors every time I "saved" the new data using this GTK+ application
2021-05-09T04:05:10Z White_Flame: beach: is there any effort towards keeping the mcclim website up to date?
2021-05-09T04:05:47Z no-defun-allowed: asarch: Do you have an idea of how much data you are loading into Postgres?
2021-05-09T04:06:20Z beach: White_Flame: I am sure there is.  I am no longer directly involved, but I am sure jackdaniel has the ambition to keep it up to date.
2021-05-09T04:06:40Z White_Flame: ah, k.  Seems to have been a couple of years since last update
2021-05-09T04:06:56Z White_Flame: and from around here it sounds like it's pretty active
2021-05-09T04:07:35Z beach: It is very active.  I guess we can check with jackdaniel when he comes around.  He probably spends the weekends with his family.
2021-05-09T04:08:20Z asarch: no-defun-allowed, actually the data is small posts from a Facebook account like: https://pastebin.com/SHtrRUpM
2021-05-09T04:08:45Z no-defun-allowed: How many do you have?
2021-05-09T04:09:47Z asarch: Only 3306 records
2021-05-09T04:12:12Z asarch: (Maybe after doing "SELECT * FROM note;" several times)
2021-05-09T04:12:53Z saturn2: asarch: could you make a backtrace from that thread?
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2021-05-09T04:15:18Z asarch: Well, actually, right now the process is off but, how could I do the backtrace?
2021-05-09T04:16:45Z asarch: Let me see if refreshing the content of the GTK+ window could create this condition
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2021-05-09T04:19:07Z saturn2: type "(sb-thread:release-foreground)" and then type "backtrace"
2021-05-09T04:19:33Z asarch: Is there any way to do more verbose the SBCL execution?
2021-05-09T04:21:33Z asarch: So FFI is evil?
2021-05-09T04:23:39Z beach: asarch: Because of the differences in semantics between Common Lisp and the foreign language, it is always going to be difficult to manage a combination of the two.
2021-05-09T04:23:52Z no-defun-allowed: There aren't really good and evil in programming, but debugging C is much more annoying than debugging Lisp.
2021-05-09T04:23:56Z beach: asarch: Typically, the foreign language does not have automatic memory management, for instance.
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2021-05-09T04:25:13Z asarch: I see
2021-05-09T04:25:17Z beach: asarch: And think about debugging?  If you use something like GDB, adapted to the foreign code, you won't understand what is going on when your code is executing in Common Lisp.  Conversely, even if you have a fantastic Common Lisp debugger, it won't be able to inform you what is happening when code in the foreign language is executed.
2021-05-09T04:25:45Z asarch: Good point
2021-05-09T04:26:01Z asarch: Question #2: How can you break a pipe in SBCL?
2021-05-09T04:26:08Z asarch: https://pastebin.com/pUkPMB91
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2021-05-09T04:26:56Z asarch: I also wrote a web application using Caveman2 for the same cluster and some times when I refresh the list of the notes I get those messages
2021-05-09T04:28:10Z asarch: In this case is when I call all the notes of the Duolingo annotations
2021-05-09T04:28:30Z asarch: Those annotations are like this: 彼女はいつも新聞を読みます。 	kanojo wa itsumo shinbun o yomimasu 	She always reads the newspaper.
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2021-05-09T04:29:32Z no-defun-allowed: I think this happens when the web browser drops a connection when Hunchentoot didn't expect it. Though Hunchentoot usually logs it and carries on - does Caveman2 change that behaviour?
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2021-05-09T04:31:59Z saturn2: if you call (hunchentoot:send-headers) to send the response directly to the output stream, you have to catch any stream errors yourself otherwise they will invoke the debugger
2021-05-09T04:32:34Z asarch: I don't know. Two or three updates of SBCL before, those message started to appear
2021-05-09T04:33:10Z asarch: And since the application was still running, I just ignored them
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2021-05-09T04:41:01Z asarch: Any one here using StumpWM?
2021-05-09T04:41:08Z asarch: https://youtu.be/2wCp5QHn4Ec?t=193
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2021-05-09T04:53:38Z asarch: She knows: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fq58pEHDaM
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2021-05-09T04:56:57Z no-defun-allowed: Are tacos or GNOME 4 involved in your database issues?
2021-05-09T05:00:52Z asarch: D'oh! Wrong channel. Sorry, sorry :-(
2021-05-09T05:01:12Z saturn2: i'm fascinated that someone went to the trouble of making a vocal fry simulator
2021-05-09T05:01:36Z asarch: That was for a German friend :-(
2021-05-09T05:02:12Z asarch hides and runs
2021-05-09T05:04:46Z asarch: Tut es mir leid…
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2021-05-09T07:34:49Z moon-child: writing a lisp, haven't implemented ,@ yet.  I hadn't ever thought of doing this before (no call for it), but you can replace `(a b ,@c) with `(a b . ,c)
2021-05-09T07:35:10Z moon-child: (though of course, if the thing being spliced is in the middle of the list, there's no recourse)
2021-05-09T07:37:12Z beach: Are you saying you are creating an implementation of Lisp?  Of Common Lisp?
2021-05-09T07:39:17Z moon-child: heh, no.  Cl is large enough that most of my time would probably be spent reimplementing utility functions and macros rather than doing anything interesting
2021-05-09T07:40:16Z beach: So what did you mean by "writing a lisp, haven't..."?
2021-05-09T07:40:40Z beach: Missing pronouns make it hard to parse.
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2021-05-09T07:42:56Z moon-child: I have been writing a list processing programming language, and in it I haven't...
2021-05-09T07:43:45Z beach: Ah, OK.
2021-05-09T07:44:38Z beach: In Common Lisp, that construct is handled by a reader macro generating some special form.
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2021-05-09T07:45:26Z beach: Er, let's not call it a "special form".  Some data structure not intended for evaluation.
2021-05-09T07:45:57Z moon-child: Right.  I know how to implement it, I just hadn't gotten around to it yet
2021-05-09T07:46:18Z beach: Got it.
2021-05-09T07:46:20Z beach: Good luck!
2021-05-09T07:46:31Z moon-child: thank you!
2021-05-09T07:47:55Z beach: Let me just say this: Given the number of libraries we have already created, and the ones that will exist soon, it should be much easier than it used to be to create a Common Lisp implementation, if that's what you want to do.
2021-05-09T08:00:09Z moon-child: SICL is a really great project.  I think I might also have slightly different goals from cl with this project.  Not entirely sure yet
2021-05-09T08:00:52Z Nilby: I must have forgot. Is there some way to turn a list into a function without eval, compile, or macro around defun?
2021-05-09T08:01:22Z no-defun-allowed: Can you be more specific about what kind of list?
2021-05-09T08:01:43Z Nilby: Like I want to turn l2 into a function: (let* ((l1 '(+ 2 3)) (l2 `(lambda () ,l1))) l2))
2021-05-09T08:02:04Z no-defun-allowed: You could COERCE to a FUNCTION, but that would call COMPILE.
2021-05-09T08:02:54Z beach: moon-child: Sure, I was pointing it out for all #lisp participants.  Not just for you.
2021-05-09T08:03:13Z Nilby: no-defun-allowed: Hmmm. I guess compile and eval seem heavy for a tiny anonymous function.
2021-05-09T08:03:13Z moon-child: :)
2021-05-09T08:03:42Z Nilby: But it I guess has to happen somehow.
2021-05-09T08:04:10Z no-defun-allowed: In this specific case, you could make it (let ((closure (lambda () (+ 2 3)))) (lambda () (funcall closure))).
2021-05-09T08:05:11Z Nilby: Right, but I want to cons up the function body at runtime.
2021-05-09T08:05:33Z no-defun-allowed: Using a chain of closures works well enough most of the time. (For example, CL-PPCRE uses a chain of closures to basically produce a non-deterministic machine which finds matches.)
2021-05-09T08:05:42Z saturn2: what could do this that would be less "heavy" than eval?
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2021-05-09T08:08:46Z Nilby: I guess I'm thinking of some old days where it just stored the lambda list as the function binding.
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2021-05-09T08:10:36Z Nilby: Tangentially related, I was surprised by sbcl telling me this: "Objects of type COMPILED-FUNCTION can't be dumped into fasl files."
2021-05-09T08:10:48Z saturn2: that's pretty much what sbcl will do if you set sb-ext:*evaluator-mode* to :interpret
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2021-05-09T08:12:05Z Nilby: saturn2: That's what I was thinking I guess, but if I do that then I'm in non-portable land.
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2021-05-09T08:15:16Z saturn2: it seems more like a performance tweak, it shouldn't affect the semantics
2021-05-09T08:16:27Z no-defun-allowed: Really, if the forms you generate are similar enough, just use a chain of closures. If not, then compiling wouldn't hurt.
2021-05-09T08:16:43Z no-defun-allowed: ...unless you do it in a loop - in which case, don't!
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2021-05-09T08:48:08Z Nilby: saturn2, no-defun-allowed: Thanks for helping me think through it.
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2021-05-09T09:02:25Z lukego: Hey how do you normally do a (list-of FOO) type? is there anything like that in e.g. alexandria or serapeum that's standard and idiomaic?
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2021-05-09T09:03:02Z beach: Can't be done unless you use SATISFIES.
2021-05-09T09:03:29Z beach: But look at jimka2001's work, for instance.
2021-05-09T09:04:24Z beach: He defines something called a "regular type expression", or RTE, that can express that kind of stuff.  But it uses SATISFIES, obviously.
2021-05-09T09:04:40Z lukego: I will, but to be clear I mostly want to write (list-of FOO) in the source code for clarity, I don't mind if the impl would be e.g. with SATISFIES or just (deftype list-of (x) 'list)
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2021-05-09T09:06:34Z beach: Sure, just saying.
2021-05-09T09:07:05Z lukego: that library looks very interesting (https://github.com/jimka2001/regular-type-expression) but looks like it's excluded from quicklisp due to build problems? https://common-lisp.net/project/cl-test-grid/library/regular-type-expression.html
2021-05-09T09:07:37Z lukego: yeah. I'll probably use SATISFIES although I understand that people generally resist this so wondered if there was another popular formulation
2021-05-09T09:09:14Z lukego: (surprised there isn't something like this in serapeum but I can't find it if so)
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2021-05-09T09:28:02Z beach: lukego: What would it look like?
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2021-05-09T09:28:55Z lukego: to a first approximation https://stackoverflow.com/a/4632806/1523491
2021-05-09T09:29:47Z lukego: but for now I've written (deftype list-of (x) (declare (ignore x)) 'list) and this is ample for current purposes i.e. to avoid losing information while transcribing from an EBNF grammar into lisp structs.
2021-05-09T09:30:34Z lukego: I also added a similar (nyi-of X) that translates into T but captures that I need to define a proper X type later.
2021-05-09T09:48:30Z lukego: (I'm trying to transcribe an EBNF grammar for LLVM IR into Lisp structures - with serapeum DEFUNION - and trying on the one hand to only do the few bits I'm interested in right now while on the other hand keeping track in a disciplined way of what I'm skipping using information-preserving stubs.)
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2021-05-09T09:54:09Z phoe: the main issue with gensyms is that it's impossible to preserve their identity across FASL-dumping
2021-05-09T09:54:31Z phoe: but I think this can be solved via l-t-v in some way
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2021-05-09T13:56:20Z gendl: hey, I’ve been helping my son with his university C++ class. He recently decided to give Emacs a try, so I helped him follow the professor’s set up instructions to install company-mode and flycheck mode. These two modes pretty much makes emacs emulate the good parts of vscode, for c++ at least.
2021-05-09T13:57:00Z gendl: Then I noticed that company-slime mode is a thing, and it looks pretty active. I’m eager to give it a try. Any caveats there?
2021-05-09T13:57:48Z gendl: and how about flycheck-mode for CL? Is that a thing, or is there a potential for something like that?
2021-05-09T13:58:05Z phoe: gendl: slime-company you mean?
2021-05-09T13:58:17Z phoe: I use it all the time as a part of spacemacs, it's very good
2021-05-09T13:58:30Z gendl: Yes. Slime-company.
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2021-05-09T13:58:46Z phoe: a strong upvote from me then
2021-05-09T13:59:08Z gendl: Should I switch to spacemacs?
2021-05-09T14:00:10Z lotuseater: if you're more used to vim bindings, then why not
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2021-05-09T14:01:17Z gendl: oh is that what spacemacs is. Sorry, should’ve looked it up. Are used to be a vi user years ago, and I can still use VI in a terminal when I need to, but my fingers have pretty much been trained with native Emacs editing commands now
2021-05-09T14:01:28Z spacebat2: spacemacs, doom-emacs, there are several "config distributions" that are good to get started
2021-05-09T14:02:12Z spacebat2: also consider trying out sly, which is a fork of slime that has diverged significantly
2021-05-09T14:02:19Z gendl: so I can use slime-company with any emacs flavor? As long as it has slime loaded?
2021-05-09T14:02:26Z phoe: t
2021-05-09T14:02:47Z gendl: well, I have a custom extension to slime called glime, I’m not sure if that would work with sly
2021-05-09T14:03:07Z phoe: spacemacs is just a collection of melpa packages that are preconfigured to work together, plus some custom configuration mechanisms
2021-05-09T14:03:25Z phoe: so, more or less, a distribution of emacs
2021-05-09T14:03:46Z phoe: slime-company should work fine wherever you have slime loaded, it's not like it has a spacemacs dependency
2021-05-09T14:04:51Z gendl: I am a complete noob with emacs lisp, glime was developed by a few consultants we hired over many years. At some point I’m gonna have to learn How it works, to be able to maintain it — or find a consultant who is willing to do same
2021-05-09T14:05:21Z gendl: glime gives slime-like completion for Gendl object messages
2021-05-09T14:05:30Z gendl: End it all shows up in the mini buffer, just like with normal slime.
2021-05-09T14:05:51Z gendl: So I am hoping it will “just work” with slime-company.
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2021-05-09T14:06:05Z gendl: and* it all shows up...
2021-05-09T14:06:58Z gendl: Anyway, I’ll stop making noise here and just go try it for myself... 🙏🏻
2021-05-09T14:07:07Z pjb: What does glime do?
2021-05-09T14:07:40Z gendl: just like slime shows you completions in the mini buffer, function arguments, etc.
2021-05-09T14:08:10Z gendl: glime shows you The possible completions for gendl, which typically are object messages, it’s kind of a Smalltalk kind of thing
2021-05-09T14:08:35Z gendl: so if you type (the ap...)
2021-05-09T14:09:00Z gendl: and there’s an “apple” message available, glime will show you.
2021-05-09T14:09:24Z gendl: sorry, our “the” shadows cl:the
2021-05-09T14:10:45Z gendl: our `the` is a reference operator for messages in the currently active object. (
2021-05-09T14:11:24Z gendl: Where currently active object is captured an lexical variable `self`
2021-05-09T14:11:26Z gendl: )
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2021-05-09T14:14:25Z gendl: glime just piggybacks on slime’s completion mechanism so we’ll see — if it’s set up properly, I’m supposing it should “just work” with slime-company. But I certainly won’t be surprised if some tweaking will be necessary. In which case I might be back here begging For help or asking if any slime experts would be interested in a small paid gig
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2021-05-09T14:16:35Z gendl: Because I’m pretty sure we will make gendl look more attractive to the kids these days If it is mimicking their shiny “modern” IDEs such as vscode — and slime–company looks like a step in that direction.
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2021-05-09T14:17:30Z gendl: my 19 year old son being included in “the kids these days”
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2021-05-09T14:19:12Z gendl: So how compatible is sly with slime? For example, would slime-company work with sly?
2021-05-09T14:19:49Z gendl: or is sly-company a separate package?
2021-05-09T14:21:50Z gendl: I just noticed there is a separate #slime channel in here. I suppose any more talk on this thread could move over there
2021-05-09T14:23:06Z phoe: gendl: AFAIK sly speaks the swank protocol
2021-05-09T14:23:10Z phoe: so it should be backwards-compatible
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2021-05-09T14:23:57Z gendl: Thanks. I’ll play around.
2021-05-09T14:26:48Z pjb: gendl: I see. Thanks.
2021-05-09T14:28:20Z pjb: you use the lisp syntax. Have you have a look at Objective-CL, my reader macro to use a Objective-C-like syntax: [objet messageWith:[ref getArgument] andWith:(+ 2 3)]
2021-05-09T14:29:33Z pjb: Using a reader macro let's you define syntactic scopes where you may use identifiers without shadowing similar named symbols.
2021-05-09T14:30:23Z pjb: [super sameMessage]  and  [self otherMessage]  are such examples (super and self are just identifiers, not interned as symbols).
2021-05-09T14:30:35Z gendl: pjb: I have not.
2021-05-09T14:32:00Z gendl: We would have to work out some kind of licensing deal with you before I can truly take a look at your stuff or consider it, because I believe it is all  AGPL licensed. And we do dual-license  Gendl as Genworks GDL which is used for closed-source proprietary distributions.
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2021-05-09T14:34:49Z gendl: Gendl itself is also AGPL licensed, which I suppose makes it totally compatible with your stuff license-wise, if people are going to use it according to AGPL terms. So a third-party Who is not concerned about being exposed to these code bases  could happily take a look at what you’re talking about and see if there is potential there.
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2021-05-09T14:35:50Z gendl: pjb: do you sell AGPL exceptions?
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2021-05-09T14:52:29Z pjb: gendl: I do :-)
2021-05-09T14:53:16Z gendl: OK, perhaps we can discuss potential terms in due course if it appears mutually advantageous to do so.
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2021-05-09T14:54:39Z pjb: The lower layer would have to be implemented for gendl.  Do you need only the Objective-C smalltalk syntax?
2021-05-09T14:54:47Z pjb: There is also an alternative library: https://common-lisp.net/project/cl-objc/cl-objc.pdf
2021-05-09T14:55:39Z pjb: (but they don't implement a reader macro with Objective-C syntax).
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2021-05-09T14:57:35Z pjb: and also https://matthias.benkard.de/objective-cl/, also without reader macros.
2021-05-09T14:58:05Z pjb: Mine is at https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/tree/master/objcl
2021-05-09T14:58:26Z gendl: pjb: my guess is that gendl could benefit from many of your packages. Objective-CL may or may not be one of them. But, our message passing syntax, especially for messages which take arguments, Is
2021-05-09T14:58:46Z gendl: certainly a bit awkward The way it is now — of that there is no doubt.
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2021-05-09T17:23:32Z contrapunctus: beach: https://varnish-cache.org/docs/trunk/phk/notes.html#so-what-s-wrong-with-1975-programming ?
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2021-05-09T18:30:46Z pjb: contrapunctus: beach: to be profitable in lisp, we need to be able to talk with the GC to manage zones that are mapped to files, and to specify file-local root-sets (since files could be used by several processes, the objects in memory mapped files cannot be collected willy-nilly).
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2021-05-09T18:31:32Z pjb: the question is what to do when an object is referenced from the root sets of two different files? In what zone should it be moved/stored?
2021-05-09T18:33:23Z pjb: file 1 rootset = {#1=(a . nil)}  file 2 rootset = {#2=(a . nil)}  (setf (get 'a :k) 42)  should the plist (symbol-plist 'a) be stored in file 1, in file 2?
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2021-05-09T18:34:10Z pjb: or should we just ignore files, and consider only memory-mapped image-based storage?
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2021-05-09T18:38:06Z pjb: there could be a zone declaration similar to dynamic-extend.
2021-05-09T18:39:36Z pjb: or a dynamic scope? (with-zone (file1) (push (list 1 2 3 4) (root-set file1))) for explicit allocation in the memory mapped zone. Otherwise  (push (list 1 2 3 4) (root-set file1)) would imply moving the objects.
2021-05-09T18:40:12Z pjb: Of course, great care must be applied to avoid moving the whole lisp image into a memory mapped file (unless this is what we want).
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2021-05-09T18:43:09Z pjb: This could be used instead of fasl files.  Compiling could generate such partial lisp images that would just be memory mapped when "loaded".
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2021-05-09T18:51:25Z pjb: In ccl, if we compile this file, restart and load it, https://termbin.com/fsre then the symbol-value and the plist are lost, while the uninterned symbol itself is still referenced by foo::*foo*.   Is this conforming?  Is this acceptable?
2021-05-09T18:52:02Z pjb: Of course, if the symbol wasn't uninterned, we could have conflicts between values, functions, and plists coming from different files…
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2021-05-09T18:55:53Z pjb: Compare with load-time-value: https://termbin.com/vttwv
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2021-05-09T18:56:23Z pjb: Lisp images don't have load-time-values, but there are extension hooks to run code when loading a lisp image in some implementations.
2021-05-09T18:57:06Z pjb: the advantage of load-time-value is that it gives a clear semantic (the side effects are applied when the file is loaded/mapped).
2021-05-09T18:57:44Z pjb: But this means that we have to specify a list of objects that are not saved (entirely) in the memory mapped file…
2021-05-09T18:58:01Z pjb: of object classes.
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2021-05-09T19:29:24Z jmercouris: I'm trying to run the CLIM demos and when I try to (ql:quickload :clim-examples), get this: http://dpaste.com/CVVXAHKUN
2021-05-09T19:29:46Z jmercouris: do I need to install some fonts or something?
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2021-05-09T19:45:14Z phoe: AFAIK you need to quickload one more system that contains the fonts, but I don't remember the details
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2021-05-09T19:45:27Z jmercouris: are you sure about that?
2021-05-09T19:45:35Z jmercouris: I'm looking at `fontconfig.lisp` of mcclim
2021-05-09T19:45:52Z jmercouris: and I see the following: (defparameter *truetype-font-path* (find-if #'probe-file '(#p"/usr/share/fonts/truetype/ttf-dejavu/" ...)))
2021-05-09T19:46:09Z jmercouris: seems those paths are hardcoded... UNLESS I get to that restart and handle it myself
2021-05-09T19:46:48Z jmercouris: I guess I need to convince NixOS to have fonts at that path or something, not sure
2021-05-09T19:47:26Z jmercouris: I don't have any of those paths...
2021-05-09T19:47:55Z waleee-cl: jmercouris:  you can use a fhs-environment on nixos that fakes the paths
2021-05-09T19:48:36Z waleee-cl: jmercouris:  https://nixos.org/manual/nixpkgs/stable/#sec-fhs-environments
2021-05-09T19:49:02Z jmercouris: I see, thanks waleee-cl
2021-05-09T19:49:42Z waleee-cl: also it might be able to use your users fontcache
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2021-05-09T19:50:35Z jmercouris: I don't believe so, those paths are hardcoded in CLIM
2021-05-09T19:50:44Z jmercouris: I believe it should at least check the XDG path for fonts...
2021-05-09T19:51:03Z waleee-cl: https://nixos.wiki/wiki/Fonts , "Imperative installation of user fonts"
2021-05-09T19:53:17Z waleee-cl: jmercouris:  isn't it ostensibly possible to use clim on windows? If so it must be ways to configure the font paths or another mechanism
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2021-05-09T19:53:37Z phoe: jmercouris: (ql:quickload :cl-dejavu)
2021-05-09T19:53:47Z phoe: then fill in that variable yourself with the value of (uiop/pathname:pathname-parent-directory-pathname (cl-dejavu:font-pathname (first (cl-dejavu:list-fonts))))
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2021-05-09T19:53:50Z phoe: I assume this should work
2021-05-09T19:54:06Z waleee-cl: ah, xserver dependeny. Ok, so technically possible to run on windows, but a hassle
2021-05-09T19:54:09Z jmercouris: waleee-cl: there is a restart that occurs under that condition
2021-05-09T19:54:23Z jmercouris: and there is a path that is probed "C:/Windows/Fonts/"
2021-05-09T19:55:47Z jmercouris: phoe: I don't see this system anywhere, that's OK, I'll specify the path in the restart
2021-05-09T19:56:01Z jmercouris: I'm just fooling around anyways
2021-05-09T19:56:10Z phoe: jmercouris: it should be available in quicklisp
2021-05-09T19:56:27Z phoe: added in https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/issues/1963
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2021-05-09T19:57:34Z jmercouris: strange, perhaps my QL is out of date
2021-05-09T19:57:44Z phoe: (ql:update-all-dists) for the win!
2021-05-09T19:57:55Z jmercouris: I'm afraid to do that, I don't want to break any of my projects :-)
2021-05-09T19:58:06Z jmercouris: I've been thinking very hard about switching to CLPM
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2021-05-09T20:13:33Z phoe: then clone cl-dejavu into your local-projects
2021-05-09T20:13:37Z phoe: it seems to be self-contained
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2021-05-09T20:33:42Z moon-child: what's l-t-v?
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2021-05-09T20:40:45Z saturn2: moon-child: load-time-value
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2021-05-09T20:41:38Z moon-child: right, thanks!
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2021-05-09T21:58:05Z lotuseater: jmercouris: had the same with McCLIM
2021-05-09T21:58:44Z lotuseater: the funny thing is, a path when used with GUIX is in the source list
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2021-05-09T23:33:57Z |3b|: phoe: is there any reason https://github.com/phoe/damn-fast-priority-queue/blob/main/damn-fast-priority-queue/src.lisp#L109-L112 uses fixnum for PRIORITY instead of prio-type ?
2021-05-09T23:34:21Z phoe: |3b|: !!!!!
2021-05-09T23:34:25Z phoe: you found a bug
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2021-05-09T23:37:40Z phoe: fixed, thank you
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2021-05-09T23:38:59Z |3b|: would you be likely to accept a PR for a version that supports deleting arbitrary elements and updating priorities? if so, any better name ideas than damn-fast-updatable-priority-queue?
2021-05-09T23:39:24Z |3b|: (seems noticeably slower, so i assume it shouldn't just be folded into the original)
2021-05-09T23:39:53Z phoe: I think so, sure
2021-05-09T23:40:10Z phoe: as long as it's appropriately documented and tested I'll accept it
2021-05-09T23:40:36Z phoe: though I'm kind of wary of combinatorial explosion because then we'll have DFPQ, DFSPQ, DFUPQ, and DFUSPQ
2021-05-09T23:40:40Z phoe: I guess there is no avoiding it
2021-05-09T23:40:57Z |3b|: yeah :/
2021-05-09T23:41:05Z phoe: so we may as well embrace it
2021-05-09T23:41:30Z |3b| somewhat avoids that problem by being too lazy to implement the US version until i need it :p
2021-05-09T23:41:40Z phoe: :D
2021-05-09T23:41:49Z phoe: well I'll request that when you make a PR
2021-05-09T23:47:28Z |3b|: does the stable version just keep an extra serial# to break ties for each entry? (and then get confused if there are more than 2^32 insertions in a given table)
2021-05-09T23:49:16Z phoe: yes
2021-05-09T23:49:40Z phoe: feel free to adjust the queue to use ub64 instead of ub32 for that if you think you can run out
2021-05-09T23:50:26Z |3b| thinks i don't need it for now (and probably wouldn't object to ub32 if i did)
2021-05-09T23:51:10Z phoe: okie
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2021-05-09T23:52:21Z |3b| is more likely to have a problem with ub32 priority, might like single-float instead (though i think single-floats are still ordered the same if the bits are compared as ub32, so close enough)
2021-05-09T23:52:53Z phoe: that should work too if you adjust the prio type
2021-05-09T23:53:01Z phoe: and should even compile without warnings
2021-05-09T23:53:09Z phoe: IIRC that mfiano tried doing something like that
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2021-05-09T23:54:06Z phoe: anyway! sleep time
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2021-05-09T23:57:40Z |3b|: (i guess using bits of float directly might only work if sign is the same, but i think that is true for my current needs)
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2021-05-10T01:00:42Z sm2n: is there a way to dispatch on an optional parameter with a default argument in CLOS?
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2021-05-10T01:01:42Z sm2n: I have a bunch of methods that are constantly being called on the same special variable, it'd be nice if I could omit that parameter
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2021-05-10T01:09:38Z xTriixrx: Does anyone here have experience using the usocket and/or general tcp server/client experience with Common Lisp? I am attempting to create a persistent TCP connection for a server/client thread which will eventually be used for a distributed message bus application written in Common Lisp. All of the usocket / tcp cl documentation online is very
2021-05-10T01:09:38Z xTriixrx: elementary and does not show much..
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2021-05-10T02:02:22Z |3b|: phoe: should these be <= https://github.com/phoe/damn-fast-priority-queue/blob/main/damn-fast-priority-queue/src.lisp#L171-L174 ? i think with < you will do more swaps than needed with duplicated priorities
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2021-05-10T03:07:48Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-05-10T03:12:35Z beach: contrapunctus: That's a cute one.  I am not surprised.  A lot of people here still talk about RAM.
2021-05-10T03:13:46Z beach: pjb: Why do we need to do that?
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2021-05-10T05:04:02Z jackdaniel: uh oh, a nice lisp quote: "Common #Lisp has no philosophy. We are held together only by a shared disgust for all the alternatives." -- Scott Fahlman
2021-05-10T05:04:14Z jackdaniel: (stolen from twitter as  one can tell from the hash)
2021-05-10T05:04:24Z beach: Date?
2021-05-10T05:05:14Z jackdaniel doesn't know
2021-05-10T05:05:36Z beach: :(
2021-05-10T05:06:02Z beach: I guess it is more recent than twitter at least.
2021-05-10T05:07:16Z jackdaniel: it may be also a fake quote; not trusting random quotes on the internet is a websurfing 101 these days ,)
2021-05-10T05:07:17Z moon-child: beach: I think the # was added by a twitter user quoting the original
2021-05-10T05:07:25Z moon-child: https://ftp.distorted.org.uk/pub/mdw/its-ai/common/lins.463 contains it without the #
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2021-05-10T05:08:24Z moon-child: and that file has a modification date from 1990.  So I would say that, real or not, it far predates twitter
2021-05-10T05:09:16Z moon-child: https://www.saildart.org/COMMON.4[COM,LSP] has it in an email sent in 1983
2021-05-10T05:09:42Z moon-child: seems likely to be real
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2021-05-10T05:15:55Z moon-child: another thread from the same site: https://0x0.st/-BIj.txt cute
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2021-05-10T05:22:20Z beach: moon-child: Oh, I see.
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2021-05-10T06:34:59Z contrapunctus: pjb: a lot of the post and also your responses are beyond my knowledge level...but what can a CL programmer writing for Linux do about this today? 🤔
2021-05-10T06:38:52Z jacks2: hi. what parsing library is used this days?
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2021-05-10T06:49:04Z phoe: |3b|: hmmm, I have not tested
2021-05-10T06:49:33Z phoe: made an issue, will check
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2021-05-10T07:22:43Z beach: jacks2: esrap, I think.
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2021-05-10T07:54:53Z contrapunctus: jacks2: I like esrap ^ a friend is partial to MaxPC
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2021-05-10T08:00:39Z pjb: beach: the objective would be to unify the view of memory.  To avoid having to program explicit I/O.  To use memory mapped files in Lisp.  Of course, we could just use FFI to access the memory mapped file, (or if the implementation provides it, accessing the memory mapped file as a vector of octet), but we would then have to serialized and deserialize lisp objects onto those octets.
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2021-05-10T08:02:02Z pjb: In C, they can access directly the memory mapped blocks (the only thing is to use offsets instead of pointers).  In lisp, we have a different data model, so we need to obtain lisp objects from a memory mapped file. This means that some lisp objects are not in the main heap.
2021-05-10T08:02:15Z pjb: Also, they may be accessed by multiple processes at the same time.
2021-05-10T08:02:38Z pjb: But as I mentionned, it's not a trivial problem to solve.
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2021-05-10T08:03:57Z beach: pjb: But, Common Lisp already treats everything as primary memory.  The virtual memory system takes care of the rest.
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2021-05-10T08:04:10Z pjb: But if we don't attempt to solve it one way or another then we will still have to distinguish lisp image memory from secondary memory and serialize/deserialize and doing I/O.  Hence we won't be able to benefit from the optimizations of the kernel.
2021-05-10T08:04:30Z pjb: beach: that'd be true only if we didn't use files, and saved the lisp image instead.
2021-05-10T08:05:21Z beach: Oh, you are assuming a stupid OS like Unix and you want your Common Lisp system to use its stupid file system?  That's different.  I see.
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2021-05-10T08:10:47Z jacks2: beach, contrapunctus thanks
2021-05-10T08:11:07Z pjb: Not especially.  For one thing using memory mapped files goes in the right direction: we don't have to write explicit I/O, but we just work with (partial) process images.
2021-05-10T08:12:30Z pjb: beach: but the core of the difficulty would happen also with other OSes. For example, with EROS, which allowed to "mount" memory images thru capabilities from remote systems, we'd still have to solve the problem of unified resources such as symbols.
2021-05-10T08:13:23Z pjb: beach: When we have the "same" symbol in two different lisp images, if those two images are put in common, now we have to resolve the inconsistencies that may exist between the copies of this same symbol.
2021-05-10T08:13:30Z phoe: I guess we'd need to solve the problem of "unifying" two distinct memory images
2021-05-10T08:13:44Z phoe: which would be akin to interning everything internable from one into the other, e.g. symbols
2021-05-10T08:13:51Z pjb: beach: we of course intern the symbol itself and the packages, but its value, function and plist are in conflict.
2021-05-10T08:13:53Z phoe: but that's already getting similar to FASL loading
2021-05-10T08:14:06Z pjb: exactly.
2021-05-10T08:14:11Z beach: pjb: I am having a hard time thinking in those terms.  To me, there would be a single Lisp image.
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2021-05-10T08:14:54Z pjb: In the case of FASL this is solved by NOT saving those slots in the FASL, and by providing load-time-value and eval-when :load-toplevel :execute, to let the programmer perform the required mutations.
2021-05-10T08:16:04Z pjb: beach: even if conceptually you assert that there's a single lisp image (covering the whole Universe), you still have to deal with the fact that parts of this image are not accessible, and to deal with the synchronization when several processes access this unique universal lisp image.
2021-05-10T08:17:39Z pjb: beach: on the other hand, given those difficulties, perhaps this means that the blog article referenced earlier about memory mapping and I/O is actually wrong, and that there is indeed still a difference between core memory and secondary memory, despite the effort of unix to present one as the cache of the other.
2021-05-10T08:18:29Z pjb: beach: it's related to the problem of OO databases for lisp.
2021-05-10T08:19:56Z beach: I don't feel smart enough to solve problems related to running Lisp on "modern" operating systems, which is why I wrote the CLOSOS specification instead.
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2021-05-10T08:32:37Z pjb: beach: actually, you may be fundamentaly right: most of the problem comes from the separate addressing space for the separate processes.  If ther was a single lisp image for all lisp processes on a system, then we could just persist this lisp image, and there wouldn't be problems, at least in the scope of a single system.  With 64-bit addresses, the lisp image could encompass all the local storage.
2021-05-10T08:33:05Z beach: That's the plan, yes.
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2021-05-10T08:37:38Z lukego: splittist: hey I wonder what key/mouse bindings we want on CLIME images. I'm doing a first keymap now so that left-click can answer ACCEPT calls. But could be neat to pan/zoom on large images, open objects in the SLIME inspector, grab references for the REPL...
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2021-05-10T08:39:08Z lukego: splittist: oh I see your PRs now! Sorry I was drowning in too many github notifications and missed 'em
2021-05-10T08:40:16Z splittist: lukego: Hmm. I'm about to send a PR with more stuff - basically finishing initial implementations of the medium-draw-foo* methods. Some things not quite right yet - text directionality and arcs of ellipses (which make my head hurt), but it's pretty (: (Still need to handle transformations and clipping, I think.)
2021-05-10T08:40:52Z lukego: keep 'em coming :) I'll merge liberally and try to quickly push fixes to whatever I break in the process
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2021-05-10T08:46:48Z perdent: How would I convert these 40 16 bytes hex strings/plaintext to uint8_t raw format, without \n? https://bpa.st/BD2A
2021-05-10T08:47:30Z phoe: perdent: is that the whole file?
2021-05-10T08:47:48Z perdent: phoe: yes
2021-05-10T08:47:57Z phoe: so you want to read this file and you want to receive 40 vectors of (unsigned-byte 8)?
2021-05-10T08:48:09Z perdent: correct
2021-05-10T08:48:13Z flip214: perdent: how about reading the lines, and using IRONCLAD:HEX-STRING-TO-BYTE-ARRAY
2021-05-10T08:48:13Z perdent: without /n
2021-05-10T08:48:28Z phoe: perdent: lisp has no /n so you are lucky
2021-05-10T08:48:50Z phoe: but yes, what flip214 mentioned
2021-05-10T08:49:14Z flip214: perdent: are these MSB or LSB, BTW? you could also get a vector of INTEGERs...
2021-05-10T08:49:20Z perdent: can you show me the code how it would look?
2021-05-10T08:49:37Z flip214: is that a homework?
2021-05-10T08:49:52Z perdent: flip214: its C's unit8_t
2021-05-10T08:50:20Z phoe: perdent: we don't have uint8_t in CL, we have (unsigned-byte 8) which is equivalent
2021-05-10T08:50:39Z perdent: yeah how would it look?
2021-05-10T08:51:03Z pjb: perdent: (com.informatimago.common-lisp.data-encoding.hexadecimal:bytes-from-hexadecimal-string (text-file-contents "/tmp/data.hex")) #| --> #(235 210 251 238 234 79 122 132 5 197 192 … 211 78 240 0) |#
2021-05-10T08:51:27Z flip214: pjb: that would include #\Linefeeds in the vector
2021-05-10T08:51:31Z pjb: (length (com.informatimago.common-lisp.data-encoding.hexadecimal:bytes-from-hexadecimal-string (text-file-contents "/tmp/data.hex"))) #| --> 340 |#
2021-05-10T08:51:33Z pjb: nope.
2021-05-10T08:51:47Z pjb: #\newline is not an hexadecimal digit…
2021-05-10T08:51:52Z flip214: perdent: if it's homework, you're just cheating yourself.
2021-05-10T08:52:06Z flip214: pjb: ah, understood. but it's one large vector instead of a list of vectors, one per line.
2021-05-10T08:52:13Z perdent: flip214: not homework
2021-05-10T08:52:17Z perdent: just curious
2021-05-10T08:52:21Z flip214: (w-o-f (stream #P"aa") (loop for line = (read stream nil nil) while line collect (ironclad:h-s-t-b-a line)))
2021-05-10T08:52:25Z phoe: perdent: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2436#2436
2021-05-10T08:52:27Z flip214: abbreviated so it fits the line
2021-05-10T08:52:29Z perdent: messing around with power traces
2021-05-10T08:52:32Z perdent: CPA attacks
2021-05-10T08:52:58Z flip214: good luck, then!
2021-05-10T08:53:07Z phoe: this assumes you're not on Windows
2021-05-10T08:53:14Z pjb: Then: (mapcar (function bytes-from-hexadecimal-string) (string-list-text-file-contents "/tmp/data.hex")) #| --> (#(235 210 251 238 234 79 122 132) …  #(47 252 143 15 141 52 239 0)) |#
2021-05-10T08:53:43Z pjb: perdent: ^
2021-05-10T08:54:18Z lukego: splittist: text support is working great here too :)
2021-05-10T08:55:43Z pjb: and to store: (setf (string-list-text-file-contents "/tmp/data2.hex") (mapcar (lambda (bytes) (bytes-to-hexadecimal-string bytes :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8))) '(#(235 210 251 238 234 79 122 132)  #(47 252 143 15 141 52 239 0))))
2021-05-10T08:56:44Z perdent: and to get it to go through all 40 values?
2021-05-10T08:56:51Z perdent: to go through*
2021-05-10T08:57:39Z lukego notes that his ratmouse can generate at least six different click events for Emacs... this could get nasty...
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2021-05-10T08:59:06Z perdent: flip214: phoe, pjb
2021-05-10T08:59:06Z pjb: perdent: just run the code!
2021-05-10T08:59:15Z pjb: perdent: irc messages are limited to 250 characters…
2021-05-10T08:59:29Z splittist: lukego: yay. Just sent another.
2021-05-10T08:59:36Z pjb: perdent: get it from http://github.com/informatimago/lisp
2021-05-10T09:00:39Z lukego: splittist: neat! any cheat-sheet incantations to try it out?
2021-05-10T09:00:57Z perdent: (16:46:56) dave0: ,cc char s[] = "EBD2FBEEEA4F7A84"; unsigned char a[8]; if(sscanf(s, "%2hhx%2hhx%2hhx%2hhx%2hhx%2hhx%2hhx%2hhx", a+0,a+1,a+2,a+3,a+4,a+5,a+6,a+7) != 8) perror("sscanf error");
2021-05-10T09:00:58Z perdent: (16:46:58) candide: dave0: no output: s = "EBD2FBEEEA4F7A84"; a = "\353\322\373\356\352Oz\204"
2021-05-10T09:01:07Z perdent: I want it to have output similar to that
2021-05-10T09:01:35Z lukego: bounding boxes are an interesting one. I mean ideally Emacs would work this out from the SVG and we wouldn't have to spell out the viewBox bounding box for the whole drawing but I didn't see an obvious way to make it so
2021-05-10T09:01:52Z splittist: lukego: try the one in this https://snipboard.io/X15JRu.jpg
2021-05-10T09:01:59Z pjb: perdent: similar to what?
2021-05-10T09:02:00Z lukego: woooo!
2021-05-10T09:02:14Z perdent:  no output: s = "EBD2FBEEEA4F7A84"; a = "\353\322\373\356\352Oz\204"
2021-05-10T09:02:21Z perdent:  a = "\353\322\373\356\352Oz\204"
2021-05-10T09:02:41Z splittist: lukego: or (with-output-to-emacs (s) (draw-circle* s 100 100 75 :ink +magenta+ :start-angle (/ pi -4) :end-angle 0))
2021-05-10T09:03:17Z pjb: perdent: Then: (mapcar (compose (lambda (x) (map 'string 'code-char x))  bytes-from-hexadecimal-string) (string-list-text-file-contents "/tmp/data.hex")) #| --> ("ëÒûîêOz„" "\\\\q↿" "˔Ãö=‚«" …  "/ü4ï
2021-05-10T09:03:22Z splittist: lukego: then (with-output-to-emacs (s) (draw-circle* s 100 100 75 :ink +magenta+ :start-angle (/ pi -4) :end-angle 0 :filled nil :line-dashes t))
2021-05-10T09:03:29Z pjb: But as you can see, it's rather idiotic.
2021-05-10T09:04:14Z perdent: pjb: did the code cut off?
2021-05-10T09:04:23Z perdent: can you pastebin it
2021-05-10T09:04:25Z pjb: perdent: *I* cut it off!
2021-05-10T09:05:10Z pjb: perdent: https://termbin.com/326qr
2021-05-10T09:07:38Z jdz: Something along the way choked on NUL character.
2021-05-10T09:07:45Z lukego: splittist: circle example is working but I'm getting an error on the first one due to some stream-position missing method, looking closer, maybe just a compilation issue
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2021-05-10T09:10:44Z pjb: perdent: https://termbin.com/3e7f
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2021-05-10T09:12:32Z lukego: oh it works! transcription error from the screenshot :)
2021-05-10T09:12:38Z lukego: sweet :)
2021-05-10T09:14:32Z lukego: splittist: hm but mine doesn't look quite right compared with yours: https://snipboard.io/EnkxDl.jpg
2021-05-10T09:14:35Z splittist: lukego: yay. Although it seems that despite the SVG spec referring to the content of text elements as 'character data', it actually needs to be xml-escaped.
2021-05-10T09:14:39Z perdent: pjb: awesome thanks, and how would you strip it so the is no newlines in the outut?
2021-05-10T09:14:42Z perdent: output*
2021-05-10T09:14:49Z perdent: so there*
2021-05-10T09:16:03Z perdent: pjb: and how would it look if the values were not infact hex but ascii/text charachters instead?
2021-05-10T09:16:22Z splittist: lukego: I have an idea. Let me check.
2021-05-10T09:16:31Z pjb: perdent: remove ~% from the format.
2021-05-10T09:16:48Z pjb: perdent: how about you start programming?
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2021-05-10T10:03:41Z pyc: Is Logo programming language a dialect of Lisp?
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2021-05-10T10:08:02Z beach: pyc: There is no agreed-upon definition of "Lisp", so the question can't be answered.
2021-05-10T10:08:18Z beach: pyc: Which is why #lisp is about Common Lisp which is quite well defined.
2021-05-10T10:08:34Z pyc: beach: so Lisp is a "feeling". a language *feels* like Lisp?
2021-05-10T10:09:32Z beach: pyc: It is worse than that.  Many people who invent their own programming language for some reason desperately want it to be a dialect of Lisp, so they simply declare it so and then they come here to show it off.
2021-05-10T10:09:47Z no-defun-allowed: The definition I usually see is the same as what people who dislike Lisp say, that "it's anything with a lot of parentheses which looks like (f (g x))".
2021-05-10T10:11:03Z phoe: ;; unless it's Dylan
2021-05-10T10:11:08Z pyc: no-defun-allowed: okay. Logo does not have parens. Logo has fixed number of arguments per command (called "word" in Logo), so very unlike Lisp then. Still I read on Wikipedia and other places that Logo is a dialect of Lisp. it didn't look like Lisp when I first learnt Logo.
2021-05-10T10:11:13Z beach: pyc: If I were you, I would stop trying to put labels like that on Logo or any other programming language.  What would the purpose be?
2021-05-10T10:12:45Z phoe: it does seem kinda pointless to me, given the similarity to Plato's "man is a featherless biped" type of argument
2021-05-10T10:12:55Z no-defun-allowed: Right. Can you make a definition which excludes Smalltalk or JavaScript then (unless you feel that they should be included)? Though I agree with beach, mostly because I generally dislike Lisp apparently.
2021-05-10T10:13:11Z beach: pyc: Discussions related to "dialects of Lisp" are better conducted in ##lisp, which is not as strict about the kind of Lisp being talked about.
2021-05-10T10:13:59Z no-defun-allowed: As for Lisp with late binding and introspection, aye I'll take that, but that's mostly for the late binding and introspection.
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2021-05-10T10:18:33Z no-defun-allowed: pyc: So what can I say, if you like Logo, that's all the justification you need. If you don't, again that's all the justification you need. No need to play language taxonomist.
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2021-05-10T10:39:04Z pjb: pyc: Logo is not really a lisp. It can be implemented in lisp easily enough.  But it has a specific program syntax, different from a syntax to write logo data.
2021-05-10T10:39:10Z pjb: pyc: https://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/6226/AIM-313.pdf?sequence=2&isAllowed=y
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2021-05-10T10:47:13Z susam: pjb: Excellent find! Thanks for sharing that PDF.
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2021-05-10T11:14:27Z splittist: Does this look correct? https://snipboard.io/GuH3CV.jpg
2021-05-10T11:15:18Z phoe: the left/right and up/down are contrary to my intuition, but maybe that's just me
2021-05-10T11:16:02Z phoe: ohhh I think I get it now
2021-05-10T11:16:26Z jackdaniel: splittist: it does
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2021-05-10T11:16:57Z jdz: splittist: How come rectangle is drawn last, and does not overdraw everything?
2021-05-10T11:17:21Z jdz: I guess operations are pushed onto a list, and replayed in reverse?
2021-05-10T11:17:57Z jdz: In which case with-output-to-emacs could reorder the forms?
2021-05-10T11:18:08Z splittist: jdz: yeah. This probably isn't quite right. But I'll leave lukego to handle that (:
2021-05-10T11:18:33Z splittist: jackdaniel: thanks
2021-05-10T11:22:12Z jackdaniel: splittist: you may compare with tests in clim-examples (drawing tests -> text align)
2021-05-10T11:22:55Z jackdaniel: drawing tests have a headless run mode for pdf, postscript and raster image backends, so perhaps emacs could be added to that too
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2021-05-10T11:43:46Z lukego: splittist: oh nice test case!
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2021-05-10T11:49:52Z lukego: jdz: The way it works is that CLIM records all the drawing operations into a tree of "output records" and then at the end the Emacs backend traverses this to convert them into SVG elements. So in principle we have control over the order in which the elements are collected. I'm not sure if we're exercising that control properly yet though :-). Code: https://github.com/nuddyco/McCLIM/blob/clime/Backends/Emacs/emacs.lisp#L384
2021-05-10T11:51:34Z lukego: splittist: wow there is a lot of nice stuff in this file now :)
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2021-05-10T12:04:16Z jackdaniel: that there is exactly the place where you reverse the order ,)
2021-05-10T12:06:56Z jackdaniel: a naive approach would be changing the last line to (reverse (remove nil shapes))
2021-05-10T12:07:10Z jackdaniel: (naive correct*)
2021-05-10T12:07:50Z jackdaniel: also: (with-bounding-rectangle* (x-min y-min x-max y-max) root …) seems to be less verbose than m-v-b
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2021-05-10T12:16:18Z lukego: anyone wanna make a pull request? :)
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2021-05-10T13:09:21Z flip214: Is there something like strace for CL? So that I get the tree of function calls with their arguments, timestamps, and runtime?
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2021-05-10T13:12:24Z lukego: ,clhs trace
2021-05-10T13:12:37Z phoe: this does sound like cl:trace but on steroids
2021-05-10T13:12:38Z lukego: i guess that's not the syntax :-) oh well, yes, it's called TRACE.
2021-05-10T13:12:45Z lukego: (oh right)
2021-05-10T13:12:54Z lukego: sorry yes forgot the steroids bit there
2021-05-10T13:12:55Z flip214: lukego: doesn't show timestamps
2021-05-10T13:12:57Z phoe: you'd need to trace all the functions, which might not be a good idea, and then also record timestamps
2021-05-10T13:13:19Z phoe: I assume you can achieve this by hacking your implementation's TRACE implementation
2021-05-10T13:13:26Z flip214: also, reconstructing the tree means reading backtraces all the time, destroying the performance
2021-05-10T13:13:36Z phoe: reconstructing? what do you mean?
2021-05-10T13:13:38Z flip214: I'd hoped there's something better
2021-05-10T13:14:07Z phoe: you want to get the trace as Lisp data or as printed output?
2021-05-10T13:14:11Z flip214: phoe: to see that FOO calls BAR I need to fetch the stack in BAR and relate back to the outer FOO frame -- and that for every call...
2021-05-10T13:14:31Z flip214: well, ultimately I need some human readable representation, of course...
2021-05-10T13:14:37Z phoe: do you? can't you encapsulate FOO so that you get some code that runs before and after calling it?
2021-05-10T13:14:41Z flip214: but intermediate would be some lisp structure
2021-05-10T13:15:02Z phoe: there's no stack reconstruction there I think, just dynamic rebinding and printing I guess
2021-05-10T13:15:02Z flip214: phoe: is :encapsulate T standard? I believe SBCL has it, though.
2021-05-10T13:15:04Z flip214: right.
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2021-05-10T13:15:10Z flip214: could try that, thanks
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2021-05-10T13:15:23Z phoe: flip214: :encapsulate is not standard whatsoever
2021-05-10T13:15:34Z phoe: but I assume that SBCL has something like that
2021-05-10T13:16:12Z phoe: also, SBCL has a :report option to TRACE
2021-05-10T13:17:28Z phoe: oh wait - the proper option seems to be :print where you can print timestamps
2021-05-10T13:18:40Z flip214: phoe: not necessarily... perhaps I just want to collect data and report latency percentiles
2021-05-10T13:18:48Z flip214: but thanks for the idea, encapsulating
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2021-05-10T13:18:54Z phoe: hmmmm
2021-05-10T13:19:27Z phoe: I wonder if you can hack something together using the http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Function-Tracing options
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2021-05-10T13:19:46Z flip214: I guess so - but that's not standard ;/
2021-05-10T13:19:53Z phoe: obviously
2021-05-10T13:19:58Z phoe: there's no standard way to encapsulate anything
2021-05-10T13:20:47Z flip214: I'd have hoped for some TRIVIAL-FUNCTION-TREE-RUNTIMES library or similar ;)
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2021-05-10T13:24:25Z phoe: there will be one if you make it!
2021-05-10T13:26:04Z pfdietz: Trivial:  adj.  (1) The property of being a de facto standard library.
2021-05-10T13:27:25Z easye: Another example of what we do in the face of no ANSI revision: TRIVIAL-EVERYTHING
2021-05-10T13:27:35Z phoe: TRIVIAL-ANSI, d'oh
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2021-05-10T14:02:07Z rpg: What's the right approach for multi-line string constants that are NOT format strings?  Put tildes in to break them up and then wrap in format nil?
2021-05-10T14:02:34Z rpg: Or, worse #.(format nil <multi-line-string>)
2021-05-10T14:04:41Z lukego: "foo
2021-05-10T14:04:42Z lukego: bar"
2021-05-10T14:04:42Z lukego: ?
2021-05-10T14:05:58Z beach: rpg: That's what I do, and then I use tilde-newline with a @ modifier so that I can indent subsequent lines.
2021-05-10T14:07:13Z rpg: beach: Thanks!  Kind of ugly to embed in an ASDF defsystem form. Tempting to extend ASDF's parser for description and long-description to accept the tilde-newline FORMAT operator.
2021-05-10T14:07:54Z beach: I see.
2021-05-10T14:07:58Z rpg: lukego: That gives you a multi-line string with hard line breaks in it, which is what I was trying to avoid.
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2021-05-10T14:08:59Z lukego: I wonder if CL-INTERPOL has something since it's already sexing up string literals
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2021-05-10T14:10:16Z lukego: (nope)
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2021-05-10T14:14:01Z Josh_2: Hi
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2021-05-10T14:17:17Z beach: Hello Josh_2.
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2021-05-10T14:57:08Z lukego: holy shoes I finally got ACCEPT working in CLIME i.e. you (accept 'string) and then click a string in an image and it gets returned to Lisp
2021-05-10T14:57:51Z rpg: lukego, beach: If you are at all interested, feel encouraged to comment on https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/asdf/asdf/-/issues/70
2021-05-10T14:58:13Z splittist: lukego: yay
2021-05-10T14:58:35Z rpg: lukego: CLIME?
2021-05-10T14:58:46Z lukego: a few unsightly hacks involved on the Emacs side but it's nearly knocking-off time so I'll pretend not to notice them until tomorrow
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2021-05-10T14:59:02Z lukego: rpg: see thread https://twitter.com/lukego/status/1391723264519647232
2021-05-10T15:00:02Z rpg: lukego: WOW!
2021-05-10T15:00:17Z lukego: it's coming together rather quickly - many hands make light work !
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2021-05-10T15:04:36Z jackdaniel cheers on lukego, however he is wondering why the same effect on emacs generates approximately PI-times more wow than natively in CL ;)
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2021-05-10T15:07:04Z lukego: maybe partly "ha ha only serious" hack value and partly that many of us are living inside Emacs and anything we can do there might get 100x more usage than stuff outside
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2021-05-10T15:07:35Z jackdaniel: you are probably right
2021-05-10T15:07:48Z lukego: for example every time I figure up the McCLIM listener I think "that's awesome!" and then within a minute or two I kill it to get my "real" REPL back.
2021-05-10T15:08:27Z jackdaniel: perhaps we should call the listener slime-repl and play dumb when someone tries to close it ^_^
2021-05-10T15:08:35Z jackdaniel: (i.e make frame-exit a no-op)
2021-05-10T15:09:20Z lukego: credit here is to McCLIM anyway because it is doing all the real work, CLIME is just making it more accessible to emacs nerds.
2021-05-10T15:09:23Z Josh_2: Very impressive lukego
2021-05-10T15:09:31Z beach: rpg: Looks good to me.
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2021-05-10T15:10:36Z lukego: jackdaniel: well it doesn't work. a minute in Drei is enough to drive me to distraction. Some people think of Emacs as a stop-gap hopelessly inferior Lisp machine, but I'm in the other camp that thinks Emacs is basically the most powerful program every made.
2021-05-10T15:11:07Z jackdaniel: input editing is one of wip branches on my local machine :)
2021-05-10T15:11:09Z beach: rpg: I am trying to teach ASDF to use my custom LOAD function during SICL bootstrapping, and I am reading the ASDF manual.  But I can't figure out what I am missing.  Is there a convenient time for me to ask you how to do this?
2021-05-10T15:11:10Z lukego: So I love stuff that's complementary to Emacs rather than in conflict
2021-05-10T15:11:15Z jackdaniel: but I doubt that it will be even close to emacs
2021-05-10T15:11:20Z lukego: input editing won't be as good as emacs
2021-05-10T15:11:21Z lukego: right
2021-05-10T15:11:34Z rpg: beach: You mean, say, by Zoom?
2021-05-10T15:12:01Z beach: rpg: No, here is fine, or in #sicl.
2021-05-10T15:12:01Z rpg: beach: You are trying to make your own LOAD-OP?
2021-05-10T15:12:08Z beach: Essentially, yes.
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2021-05-10T15:12:41Z lukego wonders whether to push the code now or test it while actually having more than one type of presentation...
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2021-05-10T15:13:04Z rpg: Here is fine, but if it would stomp on other discussions too much, I could hop over to #sicl. But will need a little time for me to finish up something. On the half hour?
2021-05-10T15:13:32Z beach: Sure, just let me know when you are available and where you want to be.
2021-05-10T15:19:03Z lukego: splittist: I pushed rough initial ACCEPT support. Emacs side changes only. Some notes on the caveats @ https://github.com/nuddyco/slime/commit/8b1ea319b9d2522445454ec7b9de2e10180474bc
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2021-05-10T15:21:55Z lukego: jackdaniel: btw it's pretty exciting in splittist's demo to start seeing existing CLIM code able to render into Emacs - and will have working ACCEPT. This could potentially create a two-way street where CLIM code written for the "Emacs world" and "CLIM native world" works on both sides and people can build on each others' stuff.
2021-05-10T15:22:26Z jackdaniel: sure, I'm watching the progress with excitement
2021-05-10T15:22:34Z lukego: for example if clim-listener presentations could render into Emacs, then Emacs users could make clim-listener extensions of their own, and that could get folded into the upstream native clim listenre
2021-05-10T15:23:04Z lukego: ok maybe obvious :) it's a bit of a revelation to me to truly see CLIM as a flexible set of user-interfacing protocols rather than a monolithic "lisp machine user interface"
2021-05-10T15:23:47Z lukego: I know that it's always been described as such but I've never used e.g. PDF backend etc before so I never experienced that.
2021-05-10T15:25:39Z lukego: (Maybe I'm also squeamish but it's also really comforting that CLIM is not running a whole bunch of threads and event loop machinery behind the scenes here i.e. it's all the usual threads belonging to SLIME and my application that are driving execution. knowing that lifts a weight from my shoulders.)
2021-05-10T15:26:09Z jackdaniel: that depends on the implementation strategy and mixins
2021-05-10T15:26:10Z lukego: anyway yada yada yada I am feeling happy about Emacs at the moment :)
2021-05-10T15:26:49Z lukego: yeah I don't know what's really happening in e.g. x11 mode but it seems a bit scary and opaque to me. I say that as someone who does not dare to use threads in my Lisp programs.
2021-05-10T15:26:53Z beach: jackdaniel: Don't worry, once we have the planned IDE, it will be irresistible for Common Lisp programming.
2021-05-10T15:27:14Z jackdaniel: I'm not worried, I was just making an observation
2021-05-10T15:27:21Z beach: Good. :)
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2021-05-10T15:54:57Z _death: playing with mcclim https://adeht.org/dump/vid-2021-05-10T1833.mp4
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2021-05-10T15:57:18Z phoe: I am now curious and frightened by the "Genocide" menu
2021-05-10T15:57:19Z jackdaniel expects to see teenage ninja mutant turtles any moment now :)
2021-05-10T15:57:36Z contrapunctus: _death: :o
2021-05-10T15:57:38Z phoe: is the mutation done on McCLIM canvases?
2021-05-10T15:57:46Z phoe: or somehow else?
2021-05-10T15:58:39Z _death: opticl float images that are in turn converted to image-patterns
2021-05-10T15:59:08Z phoe: I see
2021-05-10T15:59:44Z _death: basically inspired by http://www.karlsims.com/papers/siggraph91.html (which used starlisp on the connection machine..)
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2021-05-10T16:01:15Z _death: started writing this last week, so still has lots to improve
2021-05-10T16:02:44Z Josh_2: does McClim work on M$ yet?
2021-05-10T16:04:04Z phoe: AFAIK yes, as long as you have an X server there
2021-05-10T16:04:45Z Josh_2: ah
2021-05-10T16:04:57Z Josh_2: so with WSL?
2021-05-10T16:05:05Z phoe: no, natively!
2021-05-10T16:05:13Z phoe: you can use Xming and such to get a native X server on Windows
2021-05-10T16:05:59Z Josh_2: oh right
2021-05-10T16:06:13Z Josh_2: I don't think I would consider that native, but whatever, it works
2021-05-10T16:06:23Z scymtym: i have a wip native McCLIM backend for windows
2021-05-10T16:06:55Z Josh_2: nice scymtym
2021-05-10T16:07:05Z scymtym: but too much is missing for it be practical at the moment
2021-05-10T16:07:23Z Josh_2: Wasn't there a 500 (dolla I think) bounty for it, is that still about?
2021-05-10T16:07:31Z scymtym: (and i developed in wine so i don't know how well it would work in actual windows)
2021-05-10T16:08:10Z scymtym: the bounty program is suspended since the service proved not trustworthy
2021-05-10T16:09:31Z Josh_2: ah
2021-05-10T16:09:33Z Josh_2: thats unfortunate
2021-05-10T16:09:46Z scymtym: flip214: if you feel adventurous, you can use https://github.com/scymtym/clim.flamegraph/tree/advice-backend to capture the kind of deterministic call tree with arguments and timing you describe
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2021-05-10T16:26:48Z _death: phoe: oh, I misinterpreted your question.. the mutation is done on the genotype, i.e. an s-expression.. like (abs (and x y))
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2021-05-10T16:34:40Z phoe: I see
2021-05-10T16:36:16Z lukego: beach, jackdaniel: it's actually really nice the way you guys have structured projects like sicl and mcclim in such a way that they can drive towards a grand ambition but also be modular enough to act as components of other people's less ambitions systems e.g. emacs hacks, existing lisp compilers, etc. kudos :)
2021-05-10T16:36:39Z beach: Thanks!
2021-05-10T16:37:45Z beach: We no longer have (never did?) the manpower to duplicate work for each client.
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2021-05-10T16:39:43Z jackdaniel: mcclim was structured by previous caretakers (beach included); I only fix typos in the code and such
2021-05-10T16:39:46Z jackdaniel: thanks though!
2021-05-10T16:41:13Z beach: People here should know that what jackdaniel just said is a gross underestimation of his role in McCLIM development.
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2021-05-10T16:44:41Z beach: In my opinion, it is largely thanks to jackdaniel that McCLIM has been transformed from a useful but incomplete hack with tons of bugs to a serious library.  He didn't do all the transformations himself, of course, but he was the one who took on the maintenance after years of no activity on McCLIM.
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2021-05-10T16:45:09Z jackdaniel: thank you, these are very kind words
2021-05-10T16:45:11Z jackdaniel blushes
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2021-05-10T16:46:19Z beach: I don't follow #clim closely enough, so I am not going to attempt a list of all the contributors, but I know that scymtym has dont quite a lot of things.  I am sure jackdaniel can tell us who the others are.
2021-05-10T16:47:59Z beach: And loke[m], and ...
2021-05-10T16:48:05Z jackdaniel: there is longi-sh authors list in the codebase; I'm too afraid that I'll forget about someone important while enumerating
2021-05-10T16:48:21Z beach: Yeah.
2021-05-10T16:49:12Z jackdaniel: from top of my head scymtym, loke, slyrus, nsahmad, john-a-carroll, pwerkowsky; but there are more
2021-05-10T16:49:38Z loke[m]: Many more. Isn't the list very long?
2021-05-10T16:49:50Z jackdaniel: (half of the mentioned names are people who contribute by insightful bug reports)
2021-05-10T16:50:14Z jackdaniel: as I said, many more. check out the .asd file
2021-05-10T16:50:22Z jackdaniel: (or the website)
2021-05-10T16:50:30Z jackdaniel puts back ecl hat and gets back to the type inferencer
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2021-05-10T17:28:19Z lukego: hurray for all of you :) it's exciting to me to be starting to actually use CLIM having had CLIM-envy for a couple of decades
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2021-05-10T18:44:01Z Josh_2: lukego: I tried McClim like one time, very confusing xD
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2021-05-10T18:44:20Z Josh_2: I shall try again
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2021-05-10T18:46:47Z pjb: rpg_away: you can aways write your own string reader macro to take eg. C escapes.
2021-05-10T18:47:17Z pjb: rpg_away: https://ideone.com/myrecent
2021-05-10T18:47:26Z rpg_away: Yes, that's probably what we will do.
2021-05-10T18:48:05Z pjb: rpg_away: but this is ridiculous. Why don't you just take advantage of Lisp ability to have newlines in strings literals?
2021-05-10T18:53:37Z rpg_away: We want to allow people to have layout that will look good in source code and when displayed.
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2021-05-10T19:07:04Z pjb: rpg_away: do you mean indentation?
2021-05-10T19:07:21Z rpg_away: Yes, that's right.  And possibly text reflowing.
2021-05-10T19:07:42Z pjb: rpg_away: you can still indent literal strings; It's just a matter of bound box for the lisp object representation.
2021-05-10T19:08:10Z pjb: as long as it's visually clear, that there are no prefix spaces in those inner lines.
2021-05-10T19:09:12Z rpg_away: I was going to suggest we support both ~newline and ~@newline
2021-05-10T19:13:43Z pjb: rpg_away: for example, you could display something like: https://termbin.com/b8cs9
2021-05-10T19:14:05Z pjb: rpg_away: ~ are format specifiers, so you will have to use #.(format nil …)
2021-05-10T19:15:46Z pjb: rpg_away: note: this is only a presentation. The string would be full flushed to the left (no prefix spaces on the lines).  But the editor would align them to a rectangular box instead of the indented area, and would fill the left with a filler color or character to indicate it's not part of the source code.  It could be the same face as the fringe, if it was distinct from the background.
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2021-05-10T19:17:38Z pjb: rpg_away: this could even be implemented easily enough in emacs, when you type RET in a string literal, it would automatically indent with those ░ characters with an overlay or a compose-region or something…  The source code wouldn't include them.
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2021-05-10T19:46:51Z albusp: In zpb-ttf package, I see this usage: (defpackage #:zpb-ttf (:use #:cl) ...
2021-05-10T19:46:51Z albusp: why the #?
2021-05-10T19:47:29Z lotuseater: albusp: the #: is the reader macro for not interned symbols
2021-05-10T19:47:44Z lotuseater: like when you use GENSYM
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2021-05-10T19:48:07Z albusp: yes, but what's the effect/difference between :use :cl to :use #:cl ?
2021-05-10T19:49:36Z albusp: I thought reader will still use the keyword package for :cl, or does it still intern it in the current package when it encounters it? Is that why we do #:cl so that it is not interned?
2021-05-10T19:50:09Z jackdaniel: albusp: this is to inform the person who reads the code, that the symbols itself has no meaning - only the name in this context matters
2021-05-10T19:50:18Z jackdaniel: namely "CL"
2021-05-10T19:50:35Z jackdaniel: using :cl would work as well
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2021-05-10T19:54:47Z albusp: ah, ok thanks for the answers! I further checked it on repl now, and see the difference:
2021-05-10T19:54:47Z albusp: (boundp #:testme) --> enters debugger saying testme is unbound, so the reader doesn't intern the symbol in the keyword package
2021-05-10T19:54:47Z albusp: (boundp :testme) --> T (which means it first creates the :testme symbol in the keyword package)
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2021-05-10T19:56:07Z jackdaniel: symbols in the keyword package are exceptional because their value is always their name
2021-05-10T19:56:25Z jackdaniel: s/their name/the symbol value is that symbol itself/
2021-05-10T19:56:26Z Nilby: #:cl is one step more in the quest to working after (delete-package :keyword)
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2021-05-10T19:56:44Z jackdaniel: try (boundp '#:testme)
2021-05-10T19:56:49Z jackdaniel: and (boundp ':testme)
2021-05-10T19:57:02Z jackdaniel: but also (boundp 'testme)
2021-05-10T19:57:12Z pjb: and try: (values (boundp '#:testme) (setf (symbol-value '#:testme) 42) (boundp '#:testme))
2021-05-10T19:57:46Z albusp: yep, I think I know the answer to additional questions. thanks much!
2021-05-10T19:58:00Z albusp: because of lisp-2
2021-05-10T19:58:12Z pjb: and try: (let ((testme 42))  (values (boundp 'testme) (setf (symbol-value 'testme) 33) (boundp 'testme) testme (makunbound 'testme) (boundp 'testme) testme)) #| --> nil ; 33 ; t ; 42 ; testme ; nil ; 42 |#
2021-05-10T19:58:18Z pjb: albusp: unrelevant.
2021-05-10T19:58:26Z jackdaniel: g'night
2021-05-10T19:58:50Z albusp: pjb: alright, let me try
2021-05-10T19:59:16Z pjb: albusp: #:foo is an uninterned symbol. But it's a symbol like any other. If you try to evaluate, CL will try to return its value slot. If that's not bound an error occurs.
2021-05-10T19:59:24Z pjb: Long before boundp is called.
2021-05-10T20:00:10Z pjb: albusp: in the case of the lexica LET testme, this doesn't bind the value slot of the symbol. With lexical let, the symbol is only used as a name to a lexical variable that is bound.  Not the symbol itself.
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2021-05-10T20:00:36Z pjb: But you can both bind the value slot of the symbol, and the lexical variable named by the symbol!  Hence  the results 42 and 33 in the example.
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2021-05-10T20:03:11Z pjb: albusp: note that with defpackage, the reader know that the elements are string designators.  The difference between :use cl, :use :cl, and :use #:cl are only in the interning and in what package the symbol is interned. :use cl interns a symbol named "CL" in the current package. :use :cl interns a symbol named "CL" in the package named "KEYWORD".  :use #:cl doesn't intern any symbol, it just creates an uninterned symbol named "C
2021-05-10T20:04:05Z pjb: albusp: the difference being that the interned symbols are not garbage collected once the compilation is finished, since the packages are still refrenced in (list-all-packages).  But the uninterned symbol (or the strings, when you :use "CL") can be garbag collected.
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2021-05-10T20:05:55Z pjb: albusp: the difference between (:use cl) (:export a b c)  vs (:use :cl) (:export :a :b :c) is not with (:use cl) (:export a b c) now the current packages has a whole bunch of symbols interned in it: (cl a b c), and if uou try to use the package that you just defined, you will get name conflict, between the exported symbols and the interned symbols that have the same name, but are not the same!
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2021-05-10T20:06:27Z pjb: albusp: with keywords, you would get name conflicts if you tried to use the package in the "KEYWORD" package, but nobody does that, so no problem.
2021-05-10T20:06:53Z pjb: albusp: the best is to use #:foo or "FOO", I prefer the later since that makes less memory to allocate and garbage collect at compilation time.
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2021-05-10T20:10:52Z albusp: pjb: wow, I didn't expect to learn this much, good explanations :)
2021-05-10T20:10:52Z albusp: I use "FOO" approach as well, but both #:foo and "FOO" seem clean enough then.
2021-05-10T20:11:17Z albusp: pjb: and it took some musing to understand your (let.. example
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2021-05-10T20:13:44Z pjb: albusp: Now, you can have: (defun f () (declare (special var)) var) ; note no variable named var is defined.   (let ((var 42)) #| lexical variable |# (list var (let ((var 33)) (declare (special var)) #| dynamic variable var |# (list var (f))) var)) #| --> (42 (33 33) 42) |#
2021-05-10T20:14:48Z pjb: albusp: so during the execution of the inner, dynamic let, the scope of the lexical variable var of the outer, lexical let, is shadowed, and the _dynamic_ variable can be accessed even outside of the lexical scope, in the function F.
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2021-05-10T20:16:53Z pjb: (let ((var 42)) #|lexical|#  (setf (symbol-value 'var) 22) (list (list var (f)) (makunbound 'var) var)) #| --> ((42 22) var 42) |#  here, we don't bind dynamically a dynamic variable var, but we directly set the symbol value, (it's where dynamic variable values are stored), so it can be read by F.
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2021-05-10T20:20:30Z splittist: Night all https://snipboard.io/TkX6WM.jpg
2021-05-10T20:29:15Z Josh_2: wacka wacka
2021-05-10T20:42:21Z lotuseater: uiii
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2021-05-10T20:53:29Z phoe: splittist: :D
2021-05-10T20:55:34Z jcowan: beach: What happens when you are running CLOSOS and so am I, and I want to reuse parts of your iaage?
2021-05-10T20:58:40Z phoe: sounds like FASLs
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2021-05-10T21:01:03Z jcowan: FASLs are isomorphic to source files (or at any rate multiple files constituting a single compilation unit, whreas (frozen) Lisp images have it all.
2021-05-10T21:02:03Z albusp: pjb: :mind-blown:
2021-05-10T21:03:06Z phoe: jcowan: to put it another way - sounds like a need to serialize a part of the object tree of one image to a file, and intern it/merge it into the other image later
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2021-05-10T21:03:48Z jcowan: Just so, while making sure e.g. that symbols are properly merged
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2021-05-10T21:06:39Z phoe: yes
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2021-05-10T21:39:27Z no-defun-allowed: The Self people had a transporter for getting objects between images. A careful reading suggests the transporter framework is just a convenient way to create methods on MAKE-LOAD-FORM.
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2021-05-11T00:12:21Z White_Flame: hmm, the slime highlight in emacs doesn't work for #+not-found #p"foo".  It shows the #p in comment color, but highlights the string in regular colors
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2021-05-11T00:14:19Z White_Flame: paredit also considers the #p and the string to be 2 separate entities when moving parens
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2021-05-11T02:25:23Z galex-713: how do you do nonblocking io in lisp?
2021-05-11T02:25:31Z galex-713: like with select/poll/epoll in C?
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2021-05-11T02:42:03Z no-defun-allowed: I thought there was something in usocket which let you poll/select connections, but I can't find it. There are libraries for nonblocking IO, but they undoubtedly put you in callback hell.
2021-05-11T02:42:50Z galex-713: I see
2021-05-11T02:43:32Z galex-713: but do they work for files?
2021-05-11T02:43:34Z galex-713: like local IO
2021-05-11T02:43:49Z galex-713: and streams
2021-05-11T02:43:53Z galex-713: like standard input
2021-05-11T02:43:56Z galex-713: or keyboard
2021-05-11T02:44:58Z no-defun-allowed: From memory the only way to do non-blocking IO on files involves the POSIX asynchronous IO stuff which isn't commonly used.
2021-05-11T02:45:16Z galex-713: not select?
2021-05-11T02:45:28Z galex-713: or is that select?
2021-05-11T02:45:34Z no-defun-allowed: No, select always reports that the file descriptor is available for files.
2021-05-11T02:45:43Z galex-713: oh :o :c
2021-05-11T02:45:54Z galex-713: and libevent/libev don’t support it?
2021-05-11T02:46:08Z galex-713: what is that posix io stuff? does it involves ioctl?
2021-05-11T02:46:16Z no-defun-allowed: I'm not kidding when I say this - I think the nicest way to write non-blocking IO code is to use ABCL on a Java 17 preview with the Loom extension. That way you have green threads and asynchronous IO with straight-line programs.
2021-05-11T02:46:46Z no-defun-allowed: I think libev uses another thread pool for file IO. Or maybe that was Erlang/OTP. Perhaps both.
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2021-05-11T03:06:11Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-05-11T03:14:28Z beach: jcowan: What phoe and no-defun-allowed said.  There would have to be some way of "serializing" part of the object graph in a way that makes sense when it is de-serialized on the other end.  I haven't worked out the details yet, because that's not the (to me) interesting part of CLOSOS.
2021-05-11T03:14:38Z saturn2: galex-713: https://github.com/orthecreedence/cl-async
2021-05-11T03:18:36Z no-defun-allowed: See https://bluishcoder.co.nz/self/transporter.pdf for an idea of how one can transport objects between images. Some of it would not be relevant to CLOS, as it assumes a prototype-based single-dispatch and message-passing language, whereas CLOS is class-based with generic functions with multiple dispatch. But it should give an idea of what would be done to make transporting work.
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2021-05-11T03:21:27Z beach: In several places, including the saving/loading of ASTs in Cleavir, I have used an idea i basically got from the CLIM specification, which is that the class structure should not be used.  Instead I rely on the relevant protocol items, namely initargs and accessors.
2021-05-11T03:21:57Z beach: Doing it that way has the additional advantage that it is less sensitive to updates of the class hierarchy.
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2021-05-11T03:23:23Z beach: This mechanism is used for saving an AST to file and from creating an AST from a file, but we use it also to clone an AST in memory.
2021-05-11T03:25:24Z beach: The format of the serialization is particularly simple and it works quite well.  We use Common Lisp PRINT and READ.  The reader is programmed so that the charater #\[ has special meaning.  The format is [<package>::class-name :<initarg1> :<value1> ... :<initargn> :<valuen>]
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2021-05-11T03:26:41Z beach: The reader macro for #\[ simply does (apply #'make-instance (read-delimited-list #\[ <stream>))
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2021-05-11T03:27:30Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, "abstract initialization" is also a topic of the paper. Though it also handles preserving object identity (unless marked as unnecessary by the programmer), and transporting code.
2021-05-11T03:27:39Z beach: But I guess something like LOAD-TIME-VALUE is required for stuff like hash tables.
2021-05-11T03:28:13Z beach: How does it "handle" object identity?
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2021-05-11T03:28:52Z no-defun-allowed: Hm. Would (#1=[blah] #1#) give you a list with the same object (by EQ) in the list twice?
2021-05-11T03:28:54Z beach: The technique I described preserves object identity automatically within a "file" through the use of #= and ##.
2021-05-11T03:29:04Z beach: Yes.
2021-05-11T03:29:09Z beach: READ is very capable.
2021-05-11T03:29:25Z beach: That's also how we do circularity.
2021-05-11T03:29:56Z beach: ... because our ASTs are not trees, and not even DAGs.
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2021-05-11T03:30:32Z no-defun-allowed: The code generator maintains a table of temporary bindings for objects and reuses them. A written out Self module is a program which installs it into the system.
2021-05-11T03:31:08Z beach: But the mechanism requires the user to explicitly say, for each class involved, what initargs are relevant, and what accessors to use to fetch values for those initargs.
2021-05-11T03:32:02Z beach: That kind of mechanism would be excellent to use in order to install viruses and other stuff on your system.
2021-05-11T03:32:03Z no-defun-allowed: Indeed. That is quite similar to the "annotations" used in Self, and generally the transporter design struck me as a slightly more abstracted-away MAKE-LOAD-FORM.
2021-05-11T03:33:10Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, you probably would not want to do transporting exactly like that if you don't trust the author of the module.
2021-05-11T03:34:22Z beach: Exactly.  So some slightly safer mechanism would be preferable.  The one we use for ASTs does not execute arbitrary code.
2021-05-11T03:34:43Z beach: But it can also not handle every possible case.
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2021-05-11T03:36:24Z no-defun-allowed: (The other approach, which I always mention when someone tells me that running random bytecode in a client program is going to lead to the client getting hacked, is to sandbox the program and put limits on execution time and space.)
2021-05-11T03:38:07Z beach: Sure but that technique doesn't always work.  For instance, if what you are loading into your system is just data that you want to use in some other code, like a text document or a music score.
2021-05-11T03:43:26Z no-defun-allowed: Right. As I see it, a safe version of the transporter would return the objects produced, allowing them to be used outside the sandbox.
2021-05-11T03:44:02Z beach: Ah, yes, I see what you mean.
2021-05-11T03:47:32Z no-defun-allowed: If we allow for transporting code still, we could still produce objects which do undesirable things. For example, an attacker might write out code to subclass MUSIC-SCORE, then define a method specialized on that subclass, for a generic function which the score reader calls.
2021-05-11T03:47:55Z no-defun-allowed: Then the transporter would return an instance of that new class. However, in my opinion, that is an argument for running the score reader (and really any program) with as few capabilities as possible.
2021-05-11T03:50:42Z beach: It is a bit too early for me (I haven't finished my morning coffee yet) to think through all cases.  But it is an interesting problem, and I will be happy to include a chapter in the CLOSOS specification if someone would like to work out the details.
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2021-05-11T03:57:22Z pjb: beach: I think you mean: (apply #'make-instance (read-delimited-list #\] <stream>))
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2021-05-11T03:58:08Z beach: Ah, yes, sorry.
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2021-05-11T04:16:29Z Nilby: (write (make-hash-table) :readably t) sometimes feels like a slap in the face.
2021-05-11T04:21:29Z no-defun-allowed: Most proposals for readable hash tables I've seen forget about the test function.
2021-05-11T04:21:52Z no-defun-allowed: Not to say that adding somewhere to put a test function isn't easy, but most people forget it.
2021-05-11T04:23:05Z Nilby: and implemntation specific things like :weakness, and that it won't work with *read-eval* nil
2021-05-11T04:23:41Z Nilby: or rather, some implemntations it won't work.
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2021-05-11T05:20:30Z splittist: FWIW, my current thinking on CLIME is to use it as an enhanced PRINT-OBJECT etc. for development. There are times when a cool visualisation of what is happening would assist. If I have a kewl-project/clime system for development (just as I have a kewl-project/test), and there is a library of visualisations to build on (CLIME:AS-CONS-TREE etc) then the slime repl would have even more superpowers.
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2021-05-11T05:28:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: splittist: cool, I don't know if you were influenced by my slime-media demos, but I was hoping those demos would produce something like this :)
2021-05-11T05:30:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: I guess lukego is involved here too
2021-05-11T05:31:37Z splittist: lukego is the one. But, yes, seeing all the clim goodness folks are doing makes me want to have it NOW (:
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2021-05-11T05:33:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: This is what I get for reading the logs backwards :)
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2021-05-11T05:40:57Z lukego: this close --> <-- to getting ACCEPT to respect the requested type but time for brekky and getting 7yo to school
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2021-05-11T05:51:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: I guess I can wait a bit
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2021-05-11T05:55:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: :)
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2021-05-11T06:00:21Z ebrasca: Morning!
2021-05-11T06:00:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: lukego: I contributed this a while ago to slime as well: https://github.com/slime/slime/blob/master/contrib/slime-buffer-streams.el
2021-05-11T06:01:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: It only provides text streams, basically, but the use-casees overlap slightly
2021-05-11T06:02:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: I usually use this from things like drakma:*header-stream* where I want to see some debugging info, but I don't want to clutter the repl
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2021-05-11T06:27:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: Cool stuff, I'm getting weird rendering on my Mac at the moment, but I'll be watching with interest
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2021-05-11T06:45:35Z lukego: fiddlerwoaroof: nice !
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2021-05-11T06:54:10Z lukego: fiddlerwoaroof: yeah that sounds like the sort of feature you could use many times per day. I do basically the same thing in emacs lisp code quite a lot.
2021-05-11T06:55:12Z lukego: I think this would play well with CLIME i.e. to be able to output presentations to such buffers instead of just the REPL.
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2021-05-11T06:59:42Z lukego: I don't think there's actually anything at all currently tying CLIME to the REPL except that's where images happen to be printed by default. you can also e.g. copy/paste them into other buffers and they still work. The presentation enable/disable code is globally searching all buffers for the special slime-clime-foo text property that marks an image to update.
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2021-05-11T07:08:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: Interesting
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2021-05-11T07:17:43Z lukego: we should also have a way to assign images IDs like (with-output-to-emacs (s :id :foo) ...) such that when you use the same ID again it updates the existing image(s) in Emacs rather than inserting a new one. that way you can do animation-like things.
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2021-05-11T07:20:44Z splittist: woahh.
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2021-05-11T07:22:44Z lukego: you little ripper! I have typed ACCEPT working now B)
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2021-05-11T07:25:14Z lukego: pushed @ https://github.com/nuddyco/slime/commit/a4b9bc2c82fc2ce6cf6c8983acaaf437583cf65b
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2021-05-11T07:40:19Z lukego: typed input in CLIME: https://twitter.com/lukego/status/1392021625533575168
2021-05-11T07:43:46Z lukego: I might take a breather before continuing onto the next major topic which is commands
2021-05-11T07:44:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: The bounding boxes seem to be calculated incorrectly on my computer
2021-05-11T07:45:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://snipboard.io/SNywGD.jpg
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2021-05-11T07:49:56Z lukego: thanks for trying it out !
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2021-05-11T07:50:49Z lukego: Yeah seems like there's a mismatch somewhere. I think the visual bounding box is being calculated by McCLIM but then the differently-sized image is being rendered by SVG. So they are not in agreement somehow..
2021-05-11T07:52:52Z lukego: splittist: I pushed jackdaniel's suggested fix for the output records ordering issue i.e. to reverse the records. So you will need to update your demos to draw the background first rather than last :)
2021-05-11T07:53:33Z lukego: fiddlerwoaroof: if you want a nasty workaround you could just draw a black rectangle at the beginning to define a minimum canvas size
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2021-05-11T07:57:05Z jackdaniel: congrats :)
2021-05-11T07:57:59Z splittist: lukego: noted.
2021-05-11T07:59:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://snipboard.io/ZjJV3a.jpg
2021-05-11T07:59:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think there's also a font metrics issue
2021-05-11T08:00:32Z lukego is woefully ignorant of all things fonts
2021-05-11T08:05:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: When I inspected a generated SVG, the text was being placed too closeto the top of the bock
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2021-05-11T08:42:43Z lukego: one more idea rattling around my brain is to somehow make (with-output-to-emacs (s) ...) optional. So if you'd just call e.g. (draw-rectangle* ...) directly in the REPL it would still give you the graphics when the evaluation ends. Somehow implicitly have a CLIM canvas for the extent of a SLIME invocation.
2021-05-11T08:44:44Z jackdaniel: draw-rectangle* takes the stream argument either way (and it is not default), you need to bind it somehow
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2021-05-11T08:46:25Z jdz: lukego: How about merging that into WITH-ROOM-FOR-GRAPHICS (if I remember the name correctly)?
2021-05-11T08:47:05Z jdz: That way the code would be the same as one would use in CLIM listener.
2021-05-11T08:48:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://twitter.com/fwoaroof/status/1318321574181621760?s=20
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2021-05-11T08:48:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: Here's my old attempt in this vein
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2021-05-11T08:51:27Z lukego: jackdaniel: true but maybe T could work? *standard-output* still be bound to a SLIME-OUTPUT-STREAM and we could hang CLIM methods on that?
2021-05-11T08:52:00Z lukego: fiddlerwoaroof: nice!
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2021-05-11T08:53:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: There's also the controls emacs uses in customize
2021-05-11T08:53:38Z lukego: jdz: hm not sure how that would work exactly. I guess the listener has a bunch of code all painting onto the same canvas and having to avoid clobbering each other here. in Emacs each drawing is a separate object and they are patched together like a collage
2021-05-11T08:54:14Z jackdaniel: it won't in this case I think. also, slime output stream does not have output recording
2021-05-11T08:54:39Z jackdaniel: otoh re what fiddlerwoaroof that could work
2021-05-11T08:54:40Z lukego: maybe some e.g. BEFORE method could swap out the stream just-in-time?
2021-05-11T08:55:19Z jackdaniel: you specialize the method invoke-with-room-for-graphics on slime-output-stream and wrap in with-output-to-emacs-stream instead
2021-05-11T08:55:44Z jackdaniel: also with-room-for-graphics *will* work with T
2021-05-11T08:56:09Z jackdaniel: it may be worth ensuring that :first-quadrant is nil
2021-05-11T08:56:13Z jackdaniel: (default is T)
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2021-05-11T08:57:14Z lukego: ah!
2021-05-11T08:57:16Z jackdaniel: instead of before you could make a trampoline, but that will work only for functions you provide methods for
2021-05-11T09:02:17Z moon-child: whence the 'prog' in prog*?
2021-05-11T09:03:07Z no-defun-allowed: The PROGram feature, I think.
2021-05-11T09:03:16Z jdz: moon-child: Same as LET in LET*?
2021-05-11T09:03:19Z no-defun-allowed: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node91.html
2021-05-11T09:04:18Z moon-child: no-defun-allowed: ahh, thanks
2021-05-11T09:04:36Z moon-child: jdz: I was using * as a glob, not a suffix :)
2021-05-11T09:05:26Z jdz: Yes, I definitely missed that reading of the question.
2021-05-11T09:06:03Z jackdaniel: it was meant to abbreviate prodigy, but someone made a typo and it stands for a progidy ,)
2021-05-11T09:07:17Z lukego: what kind of smiley is ,) btw :)
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2021-05-11T09:08:20Z moon-child: an unquoted one!
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2021-05-11T09:23:43Z splittist: I would be surprised if there weren't problems with the text stuff. It was working, then I tried to get smart (:
2021-05-11T09:28:36Z jackdaniel: lukego: basically ;), I don't remember when and why I've started using i
2021-05-11T09:28:38Z jackdaniel: s/i/it/
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2021-05-11T09:46:56Z splittist: fiddlerwoaroof: if you used draw-text* directly, does the same thing happen? Also, generally, we should apply the transformations and clipping
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2021-05-11T11:39:55Z lotuseater: hi there, after updating emacs and sbcl, then invoking slime i got a mysterious error
2021-05-11T11:39:57Z lotuseater: https://paste.ofcode.org/iaKyVDrbnLTiUG89fX4mjN
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2021-05-11T11:40:45Z lotuseater: anyone an idea what i could do now?
2021-05-11T11:43:48Z lukego: lotuseater: I think that I had this recently too, and the solution was to upgrade to a newer SLIME (or I suppose alternatively downgrade SBCL)
2021-05-11T11:44:38Z lukego: git clone https://github.com/slime/slime ~ && echo '(load "~/slime/slime.el")' >> ~/.emacs
2021-05-11T11:44:58Z lukego: maybe I mean ~/slime instead of ~ but hopefully you get the idea
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2021-05-11T11:47:53Z lotuseater: ok thx I'll try
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2021-05-11T11:52:15Z lotuseater: with loading sbcl_2_0_8 it works :)
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2021-05-11T14:41:17Z Josh_2: Afternoon
2021-05-11T14:41:27Z luis: |3b|: you got me slightly obsessed with slime issue 617
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2021-05-11T14:48:11Z beach: Hello Josh_2.
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2021-05-11T14:56:01Z flip214: scymtym: thanks, will take a look
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2021-05-11T15:15:41Z Josh_2: Hey beach, how is your work coming along?
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2021-05-11T15:21:53Z beach: Josh_2: Slow today because of other chores, but otherwise fine.  You?
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2021-05-11T15:36:48Z Josh_2: beach: slow progress is better than no progress. I have been really dreading some work I had to do so I've been putting it off, right now I have sat down and I'm going to get it done :P
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2021-05-11T15:45:57Z beach: Good.  Then you can quit thinking about it after it's done.
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2021-05-11T15:58:42Z Josh_2: Exactly
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2021-05-11T17:01:04Z splittist: lukego: I can't seem to make with-output-as-presentation work. I get 'error in process filter: Symbol's function definition is void: assert'
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2021-05-11T17:25:59Z splittist: On the plus side, I've tracked down the problem with stream margins.
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2021-05-11T17:28:33Z splittist: https://snipboard.io/Ign6h7.jpg
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2021-05-11T17:55:31Z phoe: assert? isn't that a CL symbol?
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2021-05-11T18:03:32Z lukego: splittist: hm! I'll remove that, must be loaded separately in my env
2021-05-11T18:04:31Z lukego: (pushed)
2021-05-11T18:04:42Z lukego: splittist: wow !!
2021-05-11T18:05:00Z splittist: Also, if you produce a giant image (by, for example, doing a format-graph-from-roots for all the subclasses of clim:design, emacs really doesn't like it ...
2021-05-11T18:05:28Z splittist: insert close paren in the obvious place above
2021-05-11T18:06:09Z lukego: I hope you don't mind me syndicating your screenshots on twitter :)
2021-05-11T18:06:30Z lukego attends to dog and family but will check this out in the morning :)
2021-05-11T18:06:50Z splittist: What is this 'twitter' thing? Best to family (and dog).
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2021-05-11T18:52:26Z splittist: lukego: for the morning - now it complains about 'second' (:
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2021-05-11T18:57:53Z lotuseater: hm how can i try that out myself with mcclim in emacs? :)
2021-05-11T18:59:57Z dieggsy: have any of you seen an issue with sly and ACL where it says polling ... infinitely
2021-05-11T19:01:02Z lotuseater: oh you use sly with ACL2? cool
2021-05-11T19:02:15Z dieggsy: well, i use sly with SBCL, but i just started using ACL for work
2021-05-11T19:02:22Z dieggsy: tryina set it all up
2021-05-11T19:02:41Z lukego: splittist: oj my common lisp accent is really hurting my elisp :)
2021-05-11T19:02:47Z splittist: lotuseater: you need (from github) the nuddyco/McClim cloned into your quicklisp/local-projects/ (or wherever you put those things), then the nuddyco/slime somewhere in your emacs load-path, remembering to use the slime-clime contrib.
2021-05-11T19:02:51Z MichaelRaskin: Allegro CL, not ACL2 the proof system, right?
2021-05-11T19:02:51Z lukego: gonna need a test suite shortly..
2021-05-11T19:02:51Z Xach: dieggsy: i also use allegro cl for work, but no issues starting sly.
2021-05-11T19:03:42Z lotuseater: ahh, names and the associations in my head clashed :D
2021-05-11T19:04:05Z dieggsy: lotuseater MichaelRaskin yeah whoops sorry allegro cl heh
2021-05-11T19:04:17Z lukego: push an s/second/cadr/
2021-05-11T19:04:31Z dieggsy: Xach: what OS are you on? i wonder if it's some weird macOS thing. normally i run linux
2021-05-11T19:04:43Z lotuseater: but thx dieggsy, reminds me to learn more how to use ACL2 for proving
2021-05-11T19:04:50Z lotuseater: thx splittist
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2021-05-11T19:08:19Z splittist: lukego: now do 'text-property-search-forward' ...
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2021-05-11T19:08:42Z lukego: okay let me fire up an `emacs -q` :)
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2021-05-11T19:12:51Z lukego: grr why doesn't (require 'text-property-search) work
2021-05-11T19:13:48Z lukego: oh maybe it's just a bleeding edge emacs feature? I have it in 27 but not 26
2021-05-11T19:14:25Z lukego: okay, sorry a bit late at night to backport that. maybe just load this file https://github.com/emacs-mirror/emacs/blob/master/lisp/emacs-lisp/text-property-search.el
2021-05-11T19:14:30Z lukego: will fix tomorrow
2021-05-11T19:14:46Z splittist: I have 27.2
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2021-05-11T19:16:02Z lukego: weird. the function is in the manual anyway so I'm not sure whassap. https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/Property-Search.html
2021-05-11T19:17:40Z splittist: lukego: requiring text-property-search, and fixing a 'first' (-> car) and it works!
2021-05-11T19:18:05Z lukego: huzzah!
2021-05-11T19:18:49Z splittist goes back to wondering how to handle transformations
2021-05-11T19:19:43Z lukego: pushed hopefully a fix for that. now going to watch some Call My Agent ..
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2021-05-11T19:25:51Z dieggsy: oh, i'm seeing an error in the inferior-lisp buffer: Error: Symbol "PACKAGE-LOCAL-NICKNAMES" not found in EXCL package.
2021-05-11T19:27:17Z phoe: EXCL?
2021-05-11T19:27:23Z phoe: is this CLISP?
2021-05-11T19:27:49Z phoe: wait, it's ACL
2021-05-11T19:27:55Z phoe: do you have all patches downloaded?
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2021-05-11T19:28:06Z dieggsy: oof, patches?
2021-05-11T19:28:08Z phoe: I know that PLNs are only available on Allegro if it's updated
2021-05-11T19:28:10Z phoe: t
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2021-05-11T19:28:47Z phoe: https://franz.com/support/patches/log/10.1/index.lhtml#lisp_pma017_003
2021-05-11T19:28:52Z phoe: AFAIK it's this one
2021-05-11T19:29:02Z dieggsy: ah shucks.
2021-05-11T19:29:03Z phoe: at least it was this one the last time I mailed Kevin Layer about it
2021-05-11T19:29:48Z dieggsy: i might be out of luck in this case lol
2021-05-11T19:29:59Z phoe: can't you tell your ACL to update itself?
2021-05-11T19:30:09Z dieggsy: phoe: woah, can i ?
2021-05-11T19:30:13Z phoe: of course you can
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2021-05-11T19:30:26Z dieggsy: phoe: i just started using allegro like, today
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2021-05-11T19:30:29Z dieggsy: what's the command for that?
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2021-05-11T19:31:12Z phoe: looks like (sys:update-allegro) and then rebuild your image
2021-05-11T19:31:20Z phoe: https://franz.com/support/patches/ has more information
2021-05-11T19:31:45Z dieggsy: oh, there's a handy update.sh script
2021-05-11T19:31:46Z dieggsy: i'll try that
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2021-05-11T19:34:19Z dieggsy: phoe: hey, that seemed to work! thank you
2021-05-11T19:34:28Z phoe: dieggsy: <3
2021-05-11T19:34:39Z phoe: now let's wait for Lispworks to finally update
2021-05-11T19:36:06Z lotuseater: how is your experience with those commercial implementations?
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2021-05-11T19:38:33Z phoe: close to zero - I only run them to check some things for portability libraries
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2021-05-11T19:38:43Z phoe: I run SBCL 99% of the time and CCL 1% of the time
2021-05-11T19:39:32Z lotuseater: okay
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2021-05-11T19:48:09Z lotuseater: just all those specialities of SBCL are of huge amount
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2021-05-11T20:03:18Z pjb: ccl:95%, clisp:4%, sbcl:1%
2021-05-11T20:03:42Z pjb: ecl, abcl, 0.ε%
2021-05-11T20:04:34Z lotuseater: oh interesting, ccl the most :)
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2021-05-11T20:10:58Z pjb: lotuseater: since macOS is my current workstation…
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2021-05-11T20:13:10Z lotuseater: ah, so ccl works better on it?
2021-05-11T20:13:40Z pjb: lotuseater: yes, and it has a GUI: Clozure CL.app in the AppStore.
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2021-05-11T20:23:36Z lotuseater: and then there's Clozure Associates company
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2021-05-11T20:40:22Z lotuseater: pjb: and i once got the impression of lispworks by reading on their website it has also good support on mac for building "apps"
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2021-05-11T20:59:12Z CL-ASHOK: Common Lisp Recipes by Professor Weitz is such an underated gem
2021-05-11T20:59:56Z CL-ASHOK: IMO one of the best books out there - its been the most useful for me
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2021-05-11T21:08:00Z lotuseater: CL-ASHOK: yes I learned much from it :)
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2021-05-11T21:08:34Z lotuseater: and furthermore, he's really friendly, I wrote some mails with him last year
2021-05-11T21:09:02Z lotuseater: or the lectures on his youtube channel (mostly in german) are also very interesting
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2021-05-11T21:12:44Z pjb: lotuseater: indeed, but it's a commercial implementation. freenode is for discussion of free(dom) software ;-)
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2021-05-11T21:13:44Z lotuseater: yes, "free as in freedom" :)
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2021-05-11T21:17:06Z splittist: lukego: text bounding rectangles hopefully fixed https://snipboard.io/u5SiE4.jpg
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2021-05-11T21:28:56Z splittist: and one for the road  https://snipboard.io/Z84UlJ.jpg
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2021-05-11T21:37:34Z luis: splittist: are there any bits that could be used by slime without clim for visualizing things? E.g., it’d be nice to draw class hierarchies in the inspector (or a new class browser, bits of which I’ve got in the works)
2021-05-11T21:38:31Z luis: I’m guessing the layouting is done by CLIM :-/
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2021-05-11T21:42:40Z luis: Though augmenting bits and pieces when CLIM’s available could be an option
2021-05-11T21:43:09Z phoe: or have a slime contrib that requires clim to be loaded on the CL side
2021-05-11T21:43:24Z phoe: or attempts to load it on its own, I guess?
2021-05-11T21:44:00Z luis: splittist, lukego: does this new toy do nested presentations?
2021-05-11T21:47:17Z luis: phoe: yeah, something like that.
2021-05-11T21:47:46Z phoe: luis: or even better - have a slime contrib that follows some sort of swank-ish protocol on the CL side
2021-05-11T21:47:57Z phoe: and then clim or whatever other software can participate in that protocol
2021-05-11T21:48:19Z phoe: therefore becoming a client who provides image data to be displayed by slime
2021-05-11T21:48:40Z phoe: this way you become clim-agnostic with a thin layer of intermediate stuff in the middle
2021-05-11T21:49:27Z phoe: this way you can load it independently of clim, you just won't be able to display anything by default until clim or some other client is loaded
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2021-05-11T21:51:00Z luis: phoe: right, there are a couple of ways to customize the inspector and things like that but is
2021-05-11T21:51:14Z luis: ... is definitely underused
2021-05-11T21:51:34Z phoe: looks like lukego and splittist found a nice way of solving that underusage!
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2021-05-11T23:19:14Z nij: Is there any tendency among the #lisp community to move toward a nix/guix-like package (or called systems in CL's term) management strategy, if tools are available?
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2021-05-11T23:20:20Z tychoish: I think a lot of scheme folks use guix because the package manager is written in guile (maybe? I think?)
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2021-05-11T23:20:44Z tychoish: and like there are guix/nix users everywhere, but CL is very multiplatform
2021-05-11T23:21:40Z nij: Yeah.. but none of the CL's platform is close to guix/nix afaik, in the sense of reproducibility.
2021-05-11T23:23:37Z tychoish: I mean, depends, but yeah
2021-05-11T23:24:05Z nij: Guix/nix have their good. So I wonder the CL community has the need to move toward it.
2021-05-11T23:24:23Z tychoish: yeah, guix/nix are also hella annoying?
2021-05-11T23:25:11Z nij: tychoish: Umm I guess so, haven't really tried them seriously. But what they promise seems great.
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2021-05-11T23:25:36Z nij: Developers don't have to worry too much on dependency breakage that often.
2021-05-11T23:25:42Z tychoish: "that often"
2021-05-11T23:26:12Z tychoish: and "as long as everything runs in guix/nix" and "as long as you don't dynamically link anything"
2021-05-11T23:26:23Z tychoish: and there are ways that guix/nix assume a compilation model that doesn't really apply to CL? and there are ways to sort of get a lot of the same benefit?
2021-05-11T23:27:53Z nij: All are very good points. Yeah, I don't know.
2021-05-11T23:28:01Z nij: Are there discussions on this before?
2021-05-11T23:28:15Z tychoish: I'm not particularly aware of any
2021-05-11T23:28:22Z tychoish: maybe in the asdf list?
2021-05-11T23:28:29Z nij: What's the asdf list?
2021-05-11T23:28:42Z nij: mailing list?
2021-05-11T23:28:47Z tychoish: like if there's a development list serv for asdf ( the build system for cl)
2021-05-11T23:29:49Z tychoish: I think there are definitely buildsystem and compilation improvements to be made: like it'd be nice to be able to cross compile things, or be able to have per-project quicklisp dependencies/etc.
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2021-05-11T23:31:41Z nij: I also fancy pinning down a dependency by its hash, not version.
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2021-05-11T23:57:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: nij: my main issue with nix/guix for CL is that I would then have to restart my REPL to install new dependencies
2021-05-11T23:57:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: That's like going back to Windows's "restart to install updates" for me
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2021-05-12T00:00:14Z nij: fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm.. I'm not sure what you mean. Isn't guix only in charge of getting the dependencies? We can then load the dependencies in a running repl like we usually do, without turning the repl off.
2021-05-12T00:01:36Z nij: The problem is, guix can get you many different "versions" (written in hash) of CL-systems with the same name. So whatever function you used to "load" (e.g. asdf:load, ql:quickload) should be aware of that. But I don't think it's terribly hard to make that "load" function behave accordingly.
2021-05-12T00:02:55Z nij: I'm really just trying to change the usual version to hash. So instead of hello-2.10, I think it's better to have 0ssi1wpaf7plaswqqjwigppsg5fyh99vdlb9kzl7c9lng89ndq1i-hello-2.10.
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2021-05-12T03:06:55Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-05-12T03:09:57Z nij: Good morning beach.
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2021-05-12T03:49:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: nij: my hope is to come up with a way to specify a set of git repositories to clone and generate an ASDF configuration from, all within lisp
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2021-05-12T03:53:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: Something like line 75 here: https://git.fiddlerwoaroof.com/u/edwlan/git-systems.git/blob/master/git-systems.lisp#L75
2021-05-12T03:54:54Z nij: I hope so too, that'd be the first step without using hash. Emacs has this too - https://github.com/raxod502/straight.el
2021-05-12T03:56:36Z lukego: splittist: I hopefully pressed the right button to give you commit bit. welcome to push directly :)
2021-05-12T03:56:50Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: have a look at: https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/blob/master/tools/make-depends.lisp
2021-05-12T03:57:00Z pjb: https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/blob/master/tools/make-depends.sh
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2021-05-12T03:58:20Z pjb: https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/blob/master/tools/source.lisp
2021-05-12T04:00:50Z nij: pjb: Would you mind explaining a bit how it reltaes? And if you think it makes sense to merge this into asdf?
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2021-05-12T04:04:11Z pjb: nij: oh, you mean a configuration for asdf, not an asd file?  I thought you meant the later.  That code reads lisp sources (notably defpackage forms), and generate file dependencies.  This could be used to generate asd files.
2021-05-12T04:04:32Z pjb: nij: but if you just want to generate an asdf configuration the problem is simplier.
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2021-05-12T04:06:38Z pjb: I thought you wanted com.informatimago.common-lisp.make-depends.make-depends:generate-asd
2021-05-12T04:07:54Z pjb: I still find that asdf:*central-registry* is perfectly good…  https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/blob/master/tools/asdf-tools.lisp#L126
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2021-05-12T04:11:49Z lukego: luis: If CLIM feels heavyweight maybe an alternative solution could be a slimmed down CLIM? Maybe it even already exists e.g. an ASDF system within McCLIM that loads what we need for Emacs but not other parts e.g. X11 and PDF backends. The more I play with McCLIM lately the more it feels like the core APIs don't require /that/ much machinery.
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2021-05-12T04:26:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: nij: you get version pinning with my sample by specifying a git hash
2021-05-12T04:28:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: pjb: the code I shared clones the specified git repositories and generates and ASDF configuration that makes them loadable with load-systems, I think it's slightly different from what you're sharing
2021-05-12T04:28:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: lukego: isn't part of the issue with SLIME just that it has to be careful about depending on libraries that might conflict with the user's projects?
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2021-05-12T04:29:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: I wonder if there's some-way to use the mechanism it has for picking sbcl/ccl/lispworks backends to also allow us to use mcclim if it's already been loaded
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2021-05-12T04:36:13Z engblom: Is it possible to compile a standalone binary? (asdf:make :my-project) is not standalone, as it still requires that all dependencies are installed.
2021-05-12T04:36:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: engblom: what do you mean by "dependencies"?
2021-05-12T04:36:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: Shared libraries?
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2021-05-12T04:38:18Z pjb: engblom: you can save an executable image that contains all the dependencies, so standalone.
2021-05-12T04:38:33Z pjb: (apart of course, shared libraries).
2021-05-12T04:39:30Z pjb: engblom: in the case of ecl, it's different, since it generate elf binaries. But you can do essentially the same, for lisp dependencies.
2021-05-12T04:39:48Z splittist: lukego: I'll try not to go crazy (with the bit)
2021-05-12T04:39:57Z pjb: engblom: see https://github.com/informatimago/hw  generate-hw.lisp and generate.lisp
2021-05-12T04:41:10Z pjb: engblom: with ecl, the trick is to pass :monolithic t  to asdf:make-build.
2021-05-12T04:42:12Z splittist: I seem to remember that refactoring the clim asd/loading mechanism was on a roadmap somewhere (possibly even as 'done'). If you don't need the font/CLX stuff then it's already pretty lightweight. And it's virtually nothing compared to the giant piles of js every tab in your browser is loading for no apparent reason.
2021-05-12T04:44:06Z engblom: fiddlerwoaroof: Lets say you have a project that got dependencies on a few library. When doing (ql:quickload :my-project), quickload will pull down all dependencines. If you then do (asdf:make) you get a binary, but it does not contain those libraries so if you move it to another computer it will not run
2021-05-12T04:45:28Z engblom: I meant (asdf:make :my-project)
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2021-05-12T04:47:10Z lukego: luis: current state of "nested presentations" in CLIME: Emacs sees just one image, but the mouse-sensitive presentation regions form a tree, with the innermost ones overriding the outer ones. for now those regions are all rectangles (bounding boxes) but Emacs can do polygons/circles too. if you (accept TYPE) then the non-matching presentations go away and don't occlude the acceptable ones
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2021-05-12T04:51:56Z engblom: pjb: I have been using sbcl, but you mean ecl would be better for this?
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2021-05-12T04:55:36Z White_Flame: lukego: regarding heavyweight, GUIs really should be heavyweight.  Good text support, complex layout, hardware acceleration, nice antialiasing, caching, etc can all be pretty large features that give good quality and offload work from the user.  I think it's a resonable tradeoff
2021-05-12T04:56:18Z White_Flame: and IMO making a heavyweight GUI layer is the only way for complex things to run fast
2021-05-12T04:56:57Z White_Flame: (in a general programming sense, not a hpc/gaming sense which tends to seek fixed pipelines for everything)
2021-05-12T04:58:54Z lukego: White_Flame: Fine but in this context Lisp doesn't do that work anyway: it's outputting SVG and Emacs/imagemagick is doing that heavy lifting stuff.
2021-05-12T05:00:04Z White_Flame: and that's a good reuse of heavyweight tools :)
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2021-05-12T05:08:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: engblom: all the pure-lisp parts of the dependencies are in the image
2021-05-12T05:08:25Z lukego: more reuse potential would be to port the little bit of Elisp code to Javascript and then have browser-based CLIM too. but that's not really my wheelhouse.
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2021-05-12T05:09:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: What you're probably running into is shared libraries not being present: there's workarounds here (e.g. bundling the .so files with your executable or providing a shell script to install them with apt or various static linking mechanisms) in most cases I find that I can just cut the problematic dependency (osicat is one thing I try to avoid depending on, for example)
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2021-05-12T05:28:28Z White_Flame: lukego: yeah, I've been threatening to do something like that for a long time, although I'd likely not go clim
2021-05-12T05:29:03Z White_Flame: the browser languages have a ton of cruft, but also great features & quality of rendering
2021-05-12T05:29:14Z White_Flame: so in my opinion it's something worth taking advantage of
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2021-05-12T05:34:38Z White_Flame: (and putting behind a much nicer interface)
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2021-05-12T05:41:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: :(
2021-05-12T05:42:05Z nij: fiddlerwoaroof: Oh yes that's quite neat. That would solved my issue for system fetching.
2021-05-12T05:42:24Z nij: However, while calling the systems as dependencies, can you also pin its git hash?
2021-05-12T05:43:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, my code is just a proof of concept, really
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2021-05-12T05:43:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, the idea would be to define a specific commit with something like this: (:git "fwoar-lisputils" "https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/fwoar.lisputils.git" "751faf8a933f1a7a023945b544f0f1b563964391")
2021-05-12T05:44:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: the :git bit at the beginning lets you also pull down tarballs from an HTTP server or something, the next component is a directory name, then a source url and the commit hash
2021-05-12T05:46:07Z nij: Sounds great. Would it be easy to merge this into asdf?
2021-05-12T05:46:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: I realized at a certain point that it doesn't make sense as part of ASDF
2021-05-12T05:46:38Z nij: @_@?! how so?
2021-05-12T05:46:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: For similar reasons as why Quicklisp isn't part of ASDF
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2021-05-12T05:46:51Z nij: Would you elaborate?
2021-05-12T05:47:19Z nij: (I genuinely hope this issue can be resolved.)
2021-05-12T05:47:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think it's basically a good idea to separate the system definition facility from the facility that resolves the systems to urls
2021-05-12T05:48:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: e.g. if I fork CFFI, I should just be able to change the system -> url mapping without having to mess with ASDs or anything
2021-05-12T05:48:35Z nij: Oh. Do one thing and do it well. I see. Yeah I agree with that.
2021-05-12T05:48:47Z nij: Hmm.. but how about the dependency calling part?
2021-05-12T05:48:57Z nij: I mean, asdf is the de facto tool to call dependency.
2021-05-12T05:49:07Z nij: And in our case, we do want to call a dependency based on its hash.
2021-05-12T05:49:24Z nij: I don't see how this is orthogonal to what asdf does.
2021-05-12T05:49:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, all the code I have does is clone the git repositories to a project-specific directory and configures ASDF's source registry
2021-05-12T05:49:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: ASDF's dependency management handles all the rest
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2021-05-12T05:50:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: I haven't thought this through entirely, but I like how ASDF just specifies a list of system names as dependencies
2021-05-12T05:52:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: I also generally just dislike the idea of version pinning: my experience with NPM and Maven has basically convinced me that version pinning just sort of enables dependency churn
2021-05-12T05:52:44Z nij: version pinning has its merit, but it's not complete yeah.
2021-05-12T05:53:00Z nij: If we can specify which dependency to use by the hash of the system, that would be a huge leap.
2021-05-12T05:53:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think version pinning trades short-term stability for long-term pain
2021-05-12T05:53:08Z nij: To my best knowledge, asdf doesn't do this yet.
2021-05-12T05:53:49Z nij: fiddlerwoaroof: yeah, I agree too, so let's use this instead: 0ssi1wpaf7plaswqqjwigppsg5fyh99vdlb9kzl7c9lng89ndq1i-hello-2.10.
2021-05-12T05:53:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: If you're forced to upgrade to the most recent release of all your dependencies every time they update, you'll just stop using third party libraries that are inconsiderate about breaking changes
2021-05-12T05:54:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: hsahes don't solve anything here
2021-05-12T05:54:08Z nij: Yep, exactly.
2021-05-12T05:54:12Z nij: Why not?
2021-05-12T05:54:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: Because they still are a form of version pinning
2021-05-12T05:54:52Z nij: At least you know that it works. There's almost no ambiguity.
2021-05-12T05:55:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: To me the only time something like hashes only make sense in CI
2021-05-12T05:55:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: The problem I have with version pinning is that it encourages you to not upgrade your code to the new version
2021-05-12T05:55:40Z nij: Another way is accretion, but that requires the whole community to acknowledge.. so I think hash pinning is one of the best practical ways so far.
2021-05-12T05:56:28Z nij: fiddlerwoaroof yeah hash pinning isn't perfect, but it's better than what we have now.
2021-05-12T05:56:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: I just have a rule: if a library makes too many breaking changes, I either fork it or I write my own version of the library
2021-05-12T05:57:27Z nij: fiddlerwoaroof that makes the next potential contributor's life harder..
2021-05-12T05:57:50Z nij: They would have to trust that you would maintain your, now personal, libraries well.
2021-05-12T05:57:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: It makes it easier because they don't have to deal with a maintainer that is inconsiderate of the library's users
2021-05-12T05:58:43Z nij: It makes your work easier, but it's stopping other to contribute..
2021-05-12T05:59:08Z nij: With hash-pinning, a build either works or not works. If it works, people can rebuild it with confidence.
2021-05-12T05:59:26Z nij: I think it makes a huge difference!
2021-05-12T05:59:44Z no-defun-allowed: How much do you pin?
2021-05-12T06:00:00Z nij: no-defun-allowed me?
2021-05-12T06:00:34Z no-defun-allowed: I am mostly unaware of any dependency pinning techniques, as libraries I use don't make breaking changes apparently. But it seems like you would have to pin everything in the general case.
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2021-05-12T06:00:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: That's more or less standard practice in Java, npm, etc.
2021-05-12T06:00:58Z no-defun-allowed: Say, if a kernel changed the syscall interface, then code might not work. Or do you pin the kernel version?
2021-05-12T06:01:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: That's how you get containers
2021-05-12T06:01:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: Although, Linux's stated policy is "don't break userspace"
2021-05-12T06:01:33Z no-defun-allowed: Suppose most libraries don't make syscalls themselves, sure.
2021-05-12T06:03:25Z no-defun-allowed: I thought the policy was that Mauro had to shut up.
2021-05-12T06:03:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: no-defun-allowed: a nice thing about Linux is that Linus is pretty adament of not breaking syscalls, iiuc
2021-05-12T06:04:09Z moon-child: most userspace libraries break all the time, making the kernel policy not _super_ useful
2021-05-12T06:04:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, which is where nix-ish package managers is helpful
2021-05-12T06:04:50Z no-defun-allowed: fiddlerwoaroof: Yes, my argument rests on unlikely circumstances. Though using *BSD or some other weirdo not-macOS-or-Linux Unix clone is an unlikely circumstance that some #lisp participants take part in.
2021-05-12T06:04:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: but, the stable syscall API means that containers are usually sufficient as opposed to VMs
2021-05-12T06:04:59Z moon-child: java/npm practice is to pin major version, but allow updates to minor versions.  The theory being that minor versions will not break compatibility but major versions may.  From what I can tell this works out ~~alright in practice
2021-05-12T06:05:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: no-defun-allowed: I use macOS, and Apple likes breaking userspace :)
2021-05-12T06:05:16Z moon-child: fiddlerwoaroof: or, more to the point, static linking
2021-05-12T06:05:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: moon-child: however, everyone ends up using package-lock.json which forces dependencies to have the correct hash
2021-05-12T06:06:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: maven's version conflict resolution algorithm is "pick an arbitrary version and hope it works"
2021-05-12T06:06:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: Which works surprisingly well, until you run into something like a transitive dependency on five different incompatible versions of Guava
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2021-05-12T06:08:44Z nij: no-defun-allowed: uh I think hash pinning can only guarantee reproducibility in terms of building.
2021-05-12T06:08:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: My experience with npm and java/clojure has lead me to think that _not_ pinning and just fixing breakage as it comes up ends up being better
2021-05-12T06:09:07Z nij: If the program is calling something else in run-time, then there's no way.
2021-05-12T06:09:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: Because it helps discourage breaking changes
2021-05-12T06:09:52Z nij: fiddlerwoaroof how do java/clojure community do? They explicitly ban any sort of pinning?
2021-05-12T06:11:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: No, Java does more or less standard semver pinning, for the most part
2021-05-12T06:11:37Z nij: I've heard of Hicky's idea on accretion. But I don't know how they force people to use that method.
2021-05-12T06:12:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: You end up with million-line codebases stuck on a 10 year old version of hibernate because it would take a week to upgrade
2021-05-12T06:13:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: And, the solution is generally to use CI tooling (e.g. Dependabot on Github)  that automatically bumps the version whenever a new version of a dependency is released
2021-05-12T06:14:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: Clojure is a bit more like CL, though: most Clojure libraries I used are safe to upgrade and even go years without active maintenance because they're considered "done"
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2021-05-12T06:21:01Z jackdaniel: lukego: you probably only need to depend on the system #:clim
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2021-05-12T06:31:40Z moon-child: the erlang creator once proposed--not entirely seriously--I think--but who knows-- a scheme where libraries would be obviated and functions would be identified exclusively by hash
2021-05-12T06:32:13Z moon-child: https://erlang.org/pipermail/erlang-questions/2011-May/058768.html
2021-05-12T06:32:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: moon-child: that's what the unison language does
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2021-05-12T06:33:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://www.unisonweb.org/docs/tour
2021-05-12T06:33:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: A function is just the hash of its syntax tree
2021-05-12T06:34:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: With identifiers essentially gensymed
2021-05-12T06:35:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: I have generally started to come around to a similar conclusion: https://gbracha.blogspot.com/2009/06/ban-on-imports.html
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2021-05-12T06:37:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: Nix does this, a module is basically just a function (although you can use imports to specify default argument values), and I think this sort of parameterized module system solves a lot of problems
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2021-05-12T06:38:37Z moon-child: I thought nix operates on the level of whole libraries, not individual functions?
2021-05-12T06:38:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm talking about the modules inside the nix language
2021-05-12T06:39:00Z moon-child: (and indeed, I don't know how you could do the latter unless the language were built for it, in the face of e.g. global variables)
2021-05-12T06:39:03Z moon-child: oh
2021-05-12T06:39:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: All the expression's dependencies get passed as arguments like this: https://github.com/coq/coq/blob/master/default.nix#L24-L33
2021-05-12T06:40:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: Which makes it really easy to spin custom versions of an expression
2021-05-12T06:40:41Z engblom: I saw Clojure and libraries being mentioned and there is one thing I think Clojure does better: When creating a new project all dependencies are pulled into the project folder and you specify exactly what version of the libraries you want to use. Like that you can ensure your application will compile even if the upstream library would be completely rewritten. But of course it put some responsibility on the
2021-05-12T06:40:47Z engblom: developer to bump the versions (and lein plugins can help you do that).
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2021-05-12T06:44:15Z beach: engblom: How does it handle the situation where two applications need different versions of the same library, and the two versions can't coexist in the same image?
2021-05-12T06:44:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: Unless you're doing fancy classloader stuff that few people actually does, Maven has a rule for resolving the conflict
2021-05-12T06:45:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: not Maven, aether
2021-05-12T06:45:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: it's basically pick the version closer to the root of the dependency tree
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2021-05-12T06:46:33Z beach: I can't see how you can simultaneously respect the exact version that has been specified, and resolve the conflict by picking a different version.
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2021-05-12T06:47:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: Of the languages I've used, only Javascript solves that problem
2021-05-12T06:48:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: The way modules work, a single module can be included multiple times with multiple versions
2021-05-12T06:48:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: And each dependency gets exactly the version it depends on
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2021-05-12T06:51:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think Racket/various Schemes might also have a solution here, but I've never used them enough to find out
2021-05-12T06:52:26Z engblom: beach: You probably mean "one application need different versions of the same library". I have never tested that, so I do not know how that works. If two separate applications need the different versions that is no problem.
2021-05-12T06:53:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: engblom: I'm a bit surprised you haven't run into this.  I've never worked on a substantial Clojure project that didn't have issues with version conflicts among the transitive dependencies
2021-05-12T06:55:31Z engblom: fiddlerwoaroof: The projects I have done in clojure are smaller, and often raspberry pi related, or some other small tools. I am the author of https://github.com/engblom/gpio which is a gpio library written in Clojure.
2021-05-12T06:55:40Z luis: lukego: slim-clim could work! re presentations, I have an optimisation that I want to commit (dropping overlays) that I might need to coordinate with you
2021-05-12T06:56:29Z engblom: fiddlerwoaroof: I have plans to make a gpio libary in CL, once I get time. The better startup time of CL is the motivation. Clojure takes a lot of time to start up on rpi.
2021-05-12T06:56:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: That's a very familiar complaint :)
2021-05-12T06:57:08Z luis: moon-child: if Linux didn't commit to not breaking user-space containers would be much less reliable wouldn't they since they share the host kernel
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2021-05-12T06:58:16Z engblom: The Clojure library I wrote is using /sys for handing gpio. As it is on its way to get deprecated, I will make the CL library using some kind of ffi instead.
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2021-05-12T06:59:40Z beach: engblom: No, I meant two different applications, running in the same image.
2021-05-12T07:00:58Z beach: engblom: The way I (and I assume many others) think of the Common Lisp image is that it replaces the operating system as a launcher of applications, so I want to have all my applications in one image, and I start them from the REPL.
2021-05-12T07:01:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, that model mostly doesn't exist in Clojure
2021-05-12T07:01:57Z beach: engblom: Otherwise, if you are doing individual Unix executables, you deprive yourself of the more closely collaborating applications you can have when you run them all in one image.
2021-05-12T07:02:15Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: Thanks, that explains it.
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2021-05-12T07:02:32Z jdz: fiddlerwoaroof: What do you do when a library fixes critical security issues, but only in the maintained newer incompatible versions?
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2021-05-12T07:02:53Z beach: engblom: In other words, you probably wouldn't want to do something that you just described in Common Lisp.
2021-05-12T07:03:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: jdz: depends on the issue and the strategy
2021-05-12T07:03:30Z beach: ... unless, of course, you are using first-class global environments and put each application in a separate first-class global environment.
2021-05-12T07:04:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: Oftentimes I just go the route of writing my own X, in which case there's no guarantee I'm affected. But, you can also backport/etc.
2021-05-12T07:04:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: beach: Java has classloaders (and more complicated things like OSGi) that are roughly in the same solution space as first-class global environments
2021-05-12T07:04:54Z jdz: fiddlerwoaroof: And any way you look at it, the "feature" of keeping and depending on exact versions of some libraries is not actually a feature, but a misfeature?  And the real issue is breaking changes.
2021-05-12T07:04:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: There's a build tool for Clojure called "boot" that uses them to acheive the sort of isolation necessary
2021-05-12T07:05:00Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: Oh, OK.
2021-05-12T07:05:13Z MichaelRaskin: I think there was a ELS talk that just renaming packages strategically works well enough in practice to load multiple versions of the same thing
2021-05-12T07:05:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: jdz: yeah, version pinning makes it easier for library maintainers to introduce breaking changes
2021-05-12T07:05:57Z beach: MichaelRaskin: I guess that would work.  Was the talk this year?  I guess I missed that aspect of it.
2021-05-12T07:06:12Z MichaelRaskin: Nope, a few years ago let me look up
2021-05-12T07:06:28Z beach: Whew!
2021-05-12T07:06:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: And, IMO, you generally want to set up the incentives to shift the cost of a breaking change more towards the library's maintainer
2021-05-12T07:07:25Z jdz: fiddlerwoaroof: Of course everybody wants to do that, because the then don't have to pay.
2021-05-12T07:07:36Z jdz: The sad story of open source.
2021-05-12T07:07:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: Well, if you think about it, library -> user is a one to many relationship
2021-05-12T07:08:34Z jdz: Too bad there's mostly no user --[ money ]--> library relationship.
2021-05-12T07:08:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: Breaking changes in most systems are externalized from the maintainer onto the end-developers
2021-05-12T07:08:45Z MichaelRaskin: Library -> users actually beneficial to the library is not always as obviously a one to many relation
2021-05-12T07:09:16Z MichaelRaskin: Not necessarily beneficial in money. In any way
2021-05-12T07:09:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, in terms of total cost, moving the cost of breaking changes away from the users lowers the total effort that goes into maintaining the language's ecosystem
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2021-05-12T07:10:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: JS is sort of a nightmare here because there's so much churn that old libraries often just don't work
2021-05-12T07:10:54Z beach: MichaelRaskin: Don't worry about looking up the paper.  I think I understand the idea.
2021-05-12T07:11:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: jdz: also, dropping maintenance of a library and releasing a new library under a different name is acceptable to me
2021-05-12T07:11:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: it means that if someone steps up to maintain the old library, they aren't competing with the new version
2021-05-12T07:12:55Z jdz: fiddlerwoaroof: Sure.  My argument (and experience) is that library version pinning is a double-edged sword.
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2021-05-12T07:12:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: (that is, they don't have to deal with the backporting issues as much)
2021-05-12T07:13:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I may have an overly negative view of it because of the issues I've encountered of being stuck with obsolete versions
2021-05-12T07:14:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ultimately, I don't like practices that favor short-term development speed over long-term maintenance cost
2021-05-12T07:15:52Z MichaelRaskin: To be fair, as underlying implementations have no explicit goal to break everything twice a year (unlike Chromium), Common Lisp packages are typically not too prone to breaking changes, unless they are FFI wrappers of something constantly-breaking
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2021-05-12T07:17:16Z MichaelRaskin: beach: https://european-lisp-symposium.org/static/proceedings/2017.pdf#section.0.2
2021-05-12T07:17:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: The thing I appreciate about CL is that my code stays as broken as I left it, for the most part
2021-05-12T07:18:22Z beach: MichaelRaskin: Thanks!  Looks good.
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2021-05-12T07:20:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've experimented with the technique in that paper before
2021-05-12T07:20:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: renaming packages works surprisingly well, most of the time
2021-05-12T07:21:07Z MichaelRaskin: beach: notice that speaking of multiple applications, package name conflicts are not the only problem in practice, say, on SBCL
2021-05-12T07:21:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think identifiers being objects rather than strings makes a big difference here
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2021-05-12T07:22:26Z MichaelRaskin: Well, if strings were patchable (like library references in ELF), it would also be not too bad to brute force…
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2021-05-12T07:23:59Z MichaelRaskin: fiddlerwoaroof: re: churn — I guess people who value active maintenance regardless of presence of reported bugs or whatever are succesfully filtered out by the stuck standard (which could benefit from maintenance but there is no clear path to do it…)
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2021-05-12T07:24:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I like the stuck standard, all things considered :)
2021-05-12T07:25:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: Interestingly, I think linux control groups enable you to namespace things like ports and other system resources on a thread-by-thread basis
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2021-05-12T07:25:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: I wonder if that could be leveraged to eliminate othe issues with multiple applications in the same lisp image
2021-05-12T07:27:33Z beach: MichaelRaskin: What are some of the other problems?
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2021-05-12T07:32:12Z MichaelRaskin: fiddlerwoaroof: I don't like that we do not have any surviving venue to centrally recognise something the definitive list of minor mistakes in the standard, or something like that
2021-05-12T07:32:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: MichaelRaskin: yeah, although I think the compatability-library route like bt and usocket is fairly successful
2021-05-12T07:33:58Z MichaelRaskin: beach: I think I have tried to run StumpWM as just another thread in an image with an interactive REPL; I remember StumpWM doing interesting things with error handling globally
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2021-05-12T07:34:26Z beach: I see.
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2021-05-12T07:34:47Z beach: So we definitely need first-class global environments. :)
2021-05-12T07:35:12Z MichaelRaskin: Don't forget to include memory management as a part of a global environment
2021-05-12T07:35:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: beach: one of these days I've been planning to look into your "virtualization" technique you've mentioned a couple times
2021-05-12T07:35:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: The one you use for bootstrapping SICL
2021-05-12T07:35:36Z beach: MichaelRaskin: What aspect of memory management would that be?
2021-05-12T07:35:49Z moon-child: MichaelRaskin: hmm.  I think your memory management structure looks a bit like a lattice in that case
2021-05-12T07:35:50Z Nilby: I run multiple applications in the image, but I try to avoid FFI except at the kernel level, and I try minimize dependencies.
2021-05-12T07:36:00Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: It is still not very well documented.
2021-05-12T07:36:03Z moon-child: because you want both an environment-local and a thread-local cache, to optimize locality and reduce contention
2021-05-12T07:36:11Z MichaelRaskin: beach: well, depends on what happens when something tries to allocate too much…
2021-05-12T07:36:23Z beach: Ah, yes, that one.
2021-05-12T07:36:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'd like to see a lisp that tried to implement per-thread GCes
2021-05-12T07:36:54Z Nilby: But sadly I still have to "reboot" the image more than I would like.
2021-05-12T07:36:56Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: That's the plan for SICL, but maybe you knew that.
2021-05-12T07:36:57Z lukego: I'd like to see a lisp that tried replacing threads with some proper way to do concurrency/parallelism :)
2021-05-12T07:37:00Z MichaelRaskin: fiddlerwoaroof: compatibility libraries are somewhat «worse than Javascript» in the sense of recognising just the implementation name and dispatching on that
2021-05-12T07:37:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: beach: I think so
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2021-05-12T07:37:44Z MichaelRaskin: So, a new implementation needs to be mentioned everywhere even if it mimics one of the existing ones (but different ones for different things)
2021-05-12T07:38:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, although trivial-features could help with that
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2021-05-12T07:38:23Z MichaelRaskin: And, a very low level change an implementation can leave a wrapper without a good response to support both versions (see hu.dwim.walker)
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2021-05-12T07:39:13Z Nilby: lukego: What's a proper way?
2021-05-12T07:39:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: Isn't that sort of cupposed to be handled by manipulating *FEATURES*
2021-05-12T07:39:19Z splittist: My vision for the spec would be: 1. an acknowledged starting point - dpANS (+ issues); 2. a community-developed and recognized 'notebook' (for replication) that transformed that source material into 3. a canonical object representation (with spec-specific objects like 'glossary reference', 'return value', 'chapter'); and 4. as many output formats as folks wanted to create from that object representation - a pretty PDF
2021-05-12T07:39:19Z splittist: for printing; a pretty PDF for reading on devices; my-kewl-html version; your-kewler-js version; etc. etc.
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2021-05-12T07:39:31Z lukego: Nilby: exactly! that's the right question to be asking :-)
2021-05-12T07:40:05Z MichaelRaskin: lukego: proper for _what_ underlying substrate?
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2021-05-12T07:40:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: Most of the concurrency features I'm aware of are layered on top of threads
2021-05-12T07:40:38Z Nilby: I use thread pools with lparallel a lot, and run applications in threads from the repl.
2021-05-12T07:40:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: With maybe delimited continuations mixed in
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2021-05-12T07:41:02Z Nilby: I have a sort of job control in the repl.
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2021-05-12T07:41:41Z lukego: Maybe I'm channeling Graydon Hoare but for me if there are threads and shared state on the bottom layer then I don't want to even try building something reliable. Just too many things that can go wrong in too many places. This is the main reason I wouldn't even want a Lisp Machine if there was a modern one.
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2021-05-12T07:42:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: It seems to me you're always going to have that, though
2021-05-12T07:42:08Z lukego: (Maybe I should be aware of the irony of typing that sentence on a Linux machine.)
2021-05-12T07:42:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: unless you're going to start from the processor
2021-05-12T07:42:21Z no-defun-allowed: Hm, yes, Graydon Hoare. Famous for avoiding mutable state. And making a language which attempts to make mutable state safe.
2021-05-12T07:42:26Z MichaelRaskin: fiddlerwoaroof: trivial-features would need to grow a decimal order of magnitude to approach being an answer to anything
2021-05-12T07:42:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: :)
2021-05-12T07:42:34Z no-defun-allowed: One of those parts is sarcastic. Guess which.
2021-05-12T07:42:48Z MichaelRaskin: (except underlying OS+CPU recognition, sure)
2021-05-12T07:42:50Z lukego: fiddlerwoaroof: okay, sure. but you can put in hard boundaries. Linux kernel-user barrier contains the threads there for example. Likewise BEAM. The application code is not exposed to the underlying shared memory threading at all.
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2021-05-12T07:43:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: I dunno, I like being able to cross that layer :)
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2021-05-12T07:43:28Z nij: fiddlerwoaroof: I still don't see what the drawback of hash pinning is..
2021-05-12T07:43:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: Lisps are all about not having that sort of hard boundary between the system-designer and the end developer
2021-05-12T07:43:40Z lukego: fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah. I am usually that guy too, enthusiastically embracing features that scare off other people, but not on threads. I just say no.
2021-05-12T07:43:45Z Nilby: I do think if there was a Lispy way to properly optionally isolate threads / resources, that would be good.
2021-05-12T07:43:50Z nij: With that I can just call any library I like out there, without worring its updateing, no?
2021-05-12T07:44:15Z lukego: fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah. And I appreciate that about Lisp. But it's also the reason I wouldn't want to do too much important work inside a Lisp image.
2021-05-12T07:44:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: The thing is, if you have the necessary primitives, I think it can be mostly safe?
2021-05-12T07:44:26Z no-defun-allowed: But even Haskell and Clojure people don't complain about software transactional memory.
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2021-05-12T07:44:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think you basically just need CAS and a thread pool
2021-05-12T07:45:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: (unless you're doing really low-latency stuff that I try to avoid)
2021-05-12T07:45:23Z moon-child: there's a simple solution you're all missing
2021-05-12T07:45:26Z moon-child: global interpreter lock!
2021-05-12T07:45:37Z nij: fiddlerwoaroof: Say my program depends on xad..aslkjd-hello-2.10, it it's updated I don't really have to care.
2021-05-12T07:45:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: That's a big part of the reason why, when I left Python, I didn't settle on Ocaml, Ruby, Node, etc...
2021-05-12T07:45:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: moon-child: ^
2021-05-12T07:46:00Z no-defun-allowed: "When I said 'falliable shared state', the 'falliable' was in massive sarcasm quotes. I could take a bath in this stuff. Put it on cereal, rub it right into my eyes. Honestly, it's not deadly at all... to me."
2021-05-12T07:46:02Z moon-child: ;)
2021-05-12T07:46:09Z lukego: fiddlerwoaroof: I have plenty of scars from production outages on "mostly safe" systems though. even BEAM we once spent a whole week chasing a production problem that turned out to be a C routine calling a non-reentrant libc function and this routine just happening to be exercised by more threads on this particular deployment. that was standard file I/O code in BEAM that had been written years before with the bug dormant
2021-05-12T07:46:58Z lukego: fiddlerwoaroof: but lparallel seems really awesome to me. I understand that it can coordinate a bunch of forked lisp images each producing partial results. that's that kind of stuff I like.
2021-05-12T07:48:13Z Nilby: I've hard crashed linux, bsds, macos using sbcl :o
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2021-05-12T07:48:31Z no-defun-allowed: In my opinion, you can try to do a supervisor tree-type thing with shared state by treating anything which touched that state as faulty and restarting it. But it is just an opinion as I haven't worked on my supervisor tree-type thing implementation for ages.
2021-05-12T07:49:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: lukego: I think the thing is I've tended to design around immutable state anyways
2021-05-12T07:49:40Z lukego: Nilby: but everyone is different. I don't write multithreaded applications and I don't write string processing code in C. beyond that I am game for most things :)
2021-05-12T07:50:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, I just treat threads as cheap processes
2021-05-12T07:50:29Z lukego: I only like immutability if it's real. Not just a quasi-immutable layer as a leaky abstraction. That's also why I'm not really interested in clojure.
2021-05-12T07:50:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: See, I only care about immutability as a property of an API
2021-05-12T07:50:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: because it's always an abstraction over mutable memory locations :)
2021-05-12T07:51:00Z lukego: but sorry I am sure that if we scrolled back 15 years in the channel log I would have said all of these things before ad naseum so I will put a sock in it now :)
2021-05-12T07:51:06Z no-defun-allowed: Perhaps you can rationalise that by saying "well, a shared mutable object is just a cheap poorly synchronised faux-process, so the same rule applies for when a process you need crashes".
2021-05-12T07:51:55Z MichaelRaskin: lukego: I also like false branches of if really not being executed and definitely not leaking data, but well…
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2021-05-12T07:52:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah ever since Spectre, I've just assumed that computers are broken from bottom to top
2021-05-12T07:53:44Z moon-child: only since spectre?
2021-05-12T07:53:50Z moon-child: what about rowhammer?
2021-05-12T07:54:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: Good point
2021-05-12T07:54:16Z Nilby: fiddlerwoaroof: They really are, especially when you consider all the crap hiddnen in firmware, and microcode.
2021-05-12T07:54:17Z engblom: And even without spectre, I consider OS broken. As any bigger OS is written in C/C++, I can not trust them.
2021-05-12T07:54:27Z MichaelRaskin: Rowhammer is just too much cost cutting with clear remedy that costs not too much
2021-05-12T07:54:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, Spectre is a bug in the spec for a CPU
2021-05-12T07:55:13Z MichaelRaskin: Speculative execution is something people discussed making safe for a decade (always failing to find a convincing solution), Intel saying that nah it's all safe, then Meltdown
2021-05-12T07:55:14Z engblom: I can not trust anything that is written in a language not taking care of memory management. In any bigger project there are 100% sure bugs because of bad memory management.
2021-05-12T07:55:17Z no-defun-allowed: I usually don't mess up with shared mutable state (which is mostly immutable except for concurrent hash tables, queues, etc, sure). And, while I am never going to test it, my coping mechanism suggests that I would mess up synchronisation about as much with CSP or actors or whatever else.
2021-05-12T07:56:17Z moon-child: MichaelRaskin: rowhammer and spectre are both the result of side channels--that is, details which were not correctly modeled
2021-05-12T07:56:49Z MichaelRaskin: moon-child: Row-hammer is a result of cost-optimising a known trade-off
2021-05-12T07:56:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: My impression, though, is that rowhammer isn't an issue in the design of memory, it's a result of memory manufacturers being cheap
2021-05-12T07:57:11Z lukego: splittist: I'm learning a lot of CLIM-fu from your examples! I had no idea about stuff like FORMATTING-TABLE as seen in https://snipboard.io/Z84UlJ.jpg. I must be reading the wrong parts of the manuals.
2021-05-12T07:57:35Z MichaelRaskin: Like, it is well known you need to refresh charges, it is well known if you do not do it enough you get noise…
2021-05-12T07:58:09Z moon-child: yes, but presumably they had sufficient refreshes to get sufficiently good reliability for non-pathalogical/malicious scenarious
2021-05-12T07:58:40Z moon-child: in many cases, to exploit rowhammer you needed to explicitly tell the cpu to flush a cache line to memory.  Meaning that with normal cpu memory access patterns the flaw would not have been exploitable
2021-05-12T07:59:03Z moon-child: s/the flaw would not have been exploitable/bitflips would not have generally occurred/
2021-05-12T07:59:39Z moon-child: *pathological.  It's late, I shouldn't be writing
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2021-05-12T08:01:38Z nij: Hello! Is there a de facto way to compute a fingerprint of a CLOS object? I want to get the hash of an asdf system.
2021-05-12T08:01:59Z nij: Hopefully this can be the first step to introduce the guix's way into CL. I'll see.
2021-05-12T08:02:59Z no-defun-allowed: Usually you just hash all the source code.
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2021-05-12T08:04:10Z beach: nij: The term "CLOS object" is meaningless.  Every Common Lisp datum is an object, and every object is an instance of some class, and all classes are part of CLOS.
2021-05-12T08:05:33Z nij: Hmmm I thought we went through this last time beach. I wasn't pretty convinced that the class named T as an object is an instance of some class in CLOS.
2021-05-12T08:06:22Z nij: no-defun-allowed I don't want a minor change in the source code to change the hash.. e.g. (1 2 3) and ( 1  2 3)
2021-05-12T08:06:35Z no-defun-allowed: Oh, for fuck's sake, did you even try to test that?
2021-05-12T08:06:44Z moon-child: nij: 'redundant' rather than 'meaningless', if you prefer
2021-05-12T08:07:00Z no-defun-allowed: (class-of (find-class 't)) ⇒ #<STANDARD-CLASS BUILT-IN-CLASS>
2021-05-12T08:07:18Z nij: Not even 'redundant' is what I'm thinking.
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2021-05-12T08:07:21Z nij:  CL-USER> (class-of (find-class 't)) #<STANDARD-CLASS SB-PCL:SYSTEM-CLASS>
2021-05-12T08:07:33Z nij: I'm on sbcl. It's not a part of standard. CLHS left it open.
2021-05-12T08:08:01Z no-defun-allowed: clhs system class t
2021-05-12T08:08:09Z no-defun-allowed: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/t_t.htm
2021-05-12T08:08:37Z nij: system class n. a class that may be of type built-in-class in a conforming implementation and hence cannot be inherited by classes defined by conforming programs.
2021-05-12T08:08:44Z no-defun-allowed: It even says "System Class T".
2021-05-12T08:09:02Z no-defun-allowed: That doesn't leave it open! Seriously, stop trying to sound smart with this.
2021-05-12T08:09:27Z no-defun-allowed: No, it does say "may". Well, it still is an instance of _a_ class.
2021-05-12T08:09:36Z nij: no-defun-allowed I'm not trying to sound smart. I've spent some hours really wanting to get this right. If it's not right, I'm always happy to learn.
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2021-05-12T08:10:05Z nij: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/26_glo_s.htm
2021-05-12T08:10:14Z nij: search system class ^ no-defun-allowed
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2021-05-12T08:10:27Z no-defun-allowed: A further hint is that there are no exceptional situations for CLASS-OF. i.e. any object that is described by the standard has a class.
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2021-05-12T08:10:58Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, we don't necessarily know which class #.(find-class 't) is an instance of, but it is an instance of SOME class.
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2021-05-12T08:11:15Z nij: But that class (named system class) is not well defined in CLHS, right?
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2021-05-12T08:11:36Z no-defun-allowed: That is what I said, yes.
2021-05-12T08:12:29Z nij: "all classes are a part of CLOS".. is this also right?
2021-05-12T08:12:32Z no-defun-allowed: As I understand it, anything you could call CLASS-OF with is necessarily an object. And CLASS-OF does not signal errors. Ergo, every object is an instance of some class.
2021-05-12T08:12:49Z phoe: no-defun-allowed: t
2021-05-12T08:12:55Z phoe: nij: what does "are a part of" mean in this context?
2021-05-12T08:13:19Z nij: phoe I'm quoting beach's latest comment.
2021-05-12T08:13:48Z nij: (beach I'm not de-valuing your comment. I'm just interested in this and want to get it right.. Thanks for your comment!)
2021-05-12T08:14:13Z phoe: hmmm
2021-05-12T08:14:18Z jdz: nij: Are you now convinced that the "class named T as an object is an instance of some class"?
2021-05-12T08:14:43Z nij: Yes, but not "of some CLOS class", or "of some class as a part of CLOS".
2021-05-12T08:15:05Z jdz: nij: Please name one non-CLOS class.
2021-05-12T08:15:11Z phoe: :D
2021-05-12T08:15:11Z nij: system-class
2021-05-12T08:15:22Z jdz: That's CLOS.
2021-05-12T08:15:26Z nij: Why @_@?
2021-05-12T08:15:38Z jdz: Because anything to do with classes is CLOS in common lisp.
2021-05-12T08:15:45Z phoe: AFAIK sb-pcl:system-class is a subclass of cl:built-in-class which is a part of CLOS
2021-05-12T08:15:47Z Nilby: as usual, it depends on what your definition of is is
2021-05-12T08:15:59Z nij: lol..
2021-05-12T08:16:01Z phoe: like, a standard-defined part of CLOS
2021-05-12T08:16:32Z no-defun-allowed: Well.
2021-05-12T08:17:18Z no-defun-allowed: If we keep calling CLASS-OF with the class of the last object, we will invariably get to STANDARD-CLASS. Is STANDARD-CLASS "a part of CLOS"?
2021-05-12T08:17:24Z jdz: nij: Also, you're a fan of glossary.  What is this "CLOS" thing you keep talking about?
2021-05-12T08:17:36Z lukego: splittist: the new CLIME text stuff is all working great on my machine so far! awesome :-) actually it's at the point now where I think I'll write some real application code rather than just throw-away tests
2021-05-12T08:17:44Z phoe: oh wait, no, cl:built-in-class is a subtype of sb-pcl:system-class
2021-05-12T08:17:52Z phoe: I got it the other way
2021-05-12T08:18:17Z lukego: I don't feel ready to attack the Commands / Command Tables stuff yet. have only glanced at that API. need to read and digest a bit.
2021-05-12T08:18:22Z nij: no-defun-allowed: hmmmmm makes more sense to me now. It seems that I was in the pitfall of thinking that a class must be well-defined in CLHS in order to be a CLOS class.
2021-05-12T08:18:32Z lukego: Maybe write some code and come back to that when I have an actual use for it
2021-05-12T08:18:43Z jdz: nij: You said it again.  "CLOS class".
2021-05-12T08:19:05Z phoe: nij: well-defined in CLHS, yes
2021-05-12T08:19:09Z nij: jdz: yeah I have no idea what CLOS really is.
2021-05-12T08:19:11Z phoe: every class is an object of class CLASS
2021-05-12T08:19:17Z phoe: which is well-defined in CLHS
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2021-05-12T08:19:38Z jdz: nij: So you've been told to not use the acronym.  And you'll notice, that when you drop it, the intended meaning of your sentences does not chaneg.
2021-05-12T08:19:45Z mfiano: This circular conversation could have terminated with AMOP
2021-05-12T08:19:46Z nij: My problem really was on system-class..
2021-05-12T08:20:31Z phoe: a system class is a class like any other, nothing really different about it
2021-05-12T08:20:32Z nij: mfiano: in #clschool beach told me that AMOP might not be fully compatible with CLHS. So I'm afraid no..
2021-05-12T08:21:18Z jdz: nij: It's quite interesting to see you randomly pick which advice to follow.
2021-05-12T08:21:19Z nij: phoe: hmm what makes it special is that CLHS leaves system class as an implementation dependent thing? But it's still a class in CLHS.
2021-05-12T08:21:30Z mfiano: That's why we have c2mop
2021-05-12T08:21:46Z phoe: nij: what do you mean, still a class in CLHS
2021-05-12T08:21:54Z nij: jdz: I mean I'm just a curious noob that tries to learn. I will keep updating my knowledge if there's a chance.
2021-05-12T08:22:22Z jdz: nij: So you claim, but your behavior tells a different story.
2021-05-12T08:22:26Z nij: phoe by that I mean it is still an instance of the class named CLASS, according to CLHS.
2021-05-12T08:22:41Z phoe: nij: all classes are instances of the class named CLASS
2021-05-12T08:22:45Z phoe: there are absolutely no exceptions
2021-05-12T08:22:53Z phoe: a system class is a CLASS that is allowed to be a BUILT-IN-CLASS, that's all
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2021-05-12T08:23:06Z nij: jdz: How so? Err.. I'm sorry if I act differently than my word. That would be off-topic, but I'm open to talk about it in another place! I'd be grateful if you could point it out.
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2021-05-12T08:24:29Z jdz: nij: If you were curious and wanted to learn, you'd just go and read AMOP, and then come back and ask more informed questions.
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2021-05-12T08:24:41Z nij: phoe I see. Thanks :)
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2021-05-12T08:24:58Z nij: jdz: Why is AMOP relevant here? I thought we were talking about CLHS..
2021-05-12T08:25:09Z phoe: nij: AMOP tells a story about how to implement CLOS
2021-05-12T08:25:20Z jdz: nij: No, the topic is "CLOS" and your insistence on using that acronym.
2021-05-12T08:25:22Z phoe: like, on a lisp that does *not* have CLOS
2021-05-12T08:25:45Z phoe: and since classes are an integral part of CLOS, it also teaches about how to make classes work
2021-05-12T08:25:53Z nij: phoe: I thought that's just a way to implement CLOS..?
2021-05-12T08:26:04Z phoe: nij: what is just a way to implement CLOS?
2021-05-12T08:26:11Z nij: AMOP
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2021-05-12T08:26:42Z phoe: AMOP is a book that contains a description of how to implement CLOS and also has an example simple implementation of CLOS called Closette
2021-05-12T08:28:22Z nij: jdz: I see. I had the mis-impression that CLOS is the object system described by the common lisp standard.
2021-05-12T08:28:33Z mfiano: Here you can see all types graphically, which is a superset of all classes: https://sellout.github.io/media/CL-type-hierarchy.png
2021-05-12T08:28:46Z phoe: well, to be honest, CLOS is the object system described by the Common Lisp standard
2021-05-12T08:28:57Z phoe: except the standard does not say how it works under the hood!
2021-05-12T08:29:00Z jdz: nij: Common Lisp standard describes the language Common Lisp, pretty sure you know that.
2021-05-12T08:29:18Z phoe: the standard describes the interfaces that the programmer can use to interface with CLOS as a part of ANSI CL
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2021-05-12T08:29:54Z phoe: but it doesn't say anything about how the whole machinery works underneath - it actually refers to AMOP for a description of that.
2021-05-12T08:30:40Z nij: I'm very confused..
2021-05-12T08:30:51Z jdz: nij: Are you convinced now that the acronym "CLOS" in "CLOS class" and "CLOS object" in the context of Common Lisp is redundant?
2021-05-12T08:31:21Z phoe: the standard and AMOP are both talking about the same CLOS, just from different points of view
2021-05-12T08:31:40Z nij: phoe Would you point out where the standard refers to AMOP?
2021-05-12T08:32:01Z nij: jdz: Do you mean that I could just have said "class and object"?
2021-05-12T08:32:13Z jdz: nij: That's what you have been told, yes.
2021-05-12T08:32:29Z mfiano: clhs metaobject protocol
2021-05-12T08:32:49Z phoe: nij: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_m.htm#metaobject_protocol
2021-05-12T08:33:45Z zacts: hello #lisp
2021-05-12T08:34:04Z zacts: I think I'm going to dive into the next ch of practical common lisp
2021-05-12T08:34:35Z nij: jdz: I'm thinking. I think I'm more convinced.
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2021-05-12T08:35:06Z nij: Indeed, a class given in CLHS doesn't have have to be implementation independent. I now did not know why I insisted on that.
2021-05-12T08:35:08Z phoe: the standard talks about the part of CLOS visible to an average CL programmer, whereas AMOP talks about the parts that make it work
2021-05-12T08:35:20Z phoe: zacts: good luck! which one?
2021-05-12T08:35:29Z zacts: I'm at ch9 at the moment
2021-05-12T08:35:32Z jdz: nij: If in doubt, refer to the glossary entries for "object" and "class".
2021-05-12T08:35:42Z zacts: ch9: building a unit test framework
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2021-05-12T08:36:20Z bollet: is CLOS a new thing?
2021-05-12T08:36:36Z phoe: only if your definition of "new" includes things standardized in 1994
2021-05-12T08:36:38Z nij: jdz: it says "any Lisp datum".. for object. But what is a Lisp datum?
2021-05-12T08:36:44Z phoe: nij: any Lisp value
2021-05-12T08:36:46Z jdz: bollet: In what timescale?
2021-05-12T08:36:55Z bollet: for now
2021-05-12T08:37:11Z phoe: e.g. a number, a cons, a symbol, a hash table, an array, ...
2021-05-12T08:37:26Z jdz: clhs value
2021-05-12T08:37:27Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for value.
2021-05-12T08:37:29Z phoe: note that a class is also a Lisp datum
2021-05-12T08:37:34Z jdz: clhs glossary value
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2021-05-12T08:37:52Z phoe: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_v.htm#value
2021-05-12T08:38:04Z phoe: the first meaning
2021-05-12T08:41:04Z nij: Now I'm convinced.
2021-05-12T08:41:48Z nij: Thanks for your patience jdz phoe. My blindspot was that I falsely insisted on that a well-defined concept in CLHS must be implementation independent.
2021-05-12T08:42:27Z phoe: what exactly do you mean by a "well-defined concept"
2021-05-12T08:42:35Z jdz: Good.  Hopefully we all learned something new today.
2021-05-12T08:43:08Z phoe: if CLHS defines that something must be true, then every implementation must follow this in order to conform to it
2021-05-12T08:43:17Z zacts: what is CLHS?
2021-05-12T08:43:28Z phoe: if CLHS defines that something *may* be true, then implementations are free to do whatever
2021-05-12T08:43:35Z phoe: zacts: the online rendition of the CL standard
2021-05-12T08:43:36Z phoe: clhs car
2021-05-12T08:43:37Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_car_c.htm
2021-05-12T08:43:42Z beach: zacts: Common Lisp HyperSpec
2021-05-12T08:44:01Z zacts: oh
2021-05-12T08:44:07Z zacts: so nothing to do with Haskell
2021-05-12T08:44:40Z zacts: I was thinking it might be a Haskell version of Common Lisp
2021-05-12T08:44:43Z zacts: :-)
2021-05-12T08:44:56Z phoe: zacts: if you're looking for the inverse then take a look at Yale Haskell
2021-05-12T08:45:15Z nij: zacts nope. As a newbie too, I just recently found CLHS amazing. It provides a definition for CL, and it's never going to change.
2021-05-12T08:45:25Z zacts: thanks
2021-05-12T08:45:30Z zacts: I'll check it out
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2021-05-12T08:51:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: lukego / splittist: it all works right on 27.2/linux/gtk/cairo but I get weird results on 28/macos/cocoa/quartz
2021-05-12T08:52:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, it's really exciting
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2021-05-12T09:04:30Z beach: lukego: Hey, you didn't have to leave #sicl.  We could just quit discussing that particular topic.
2021-05-12T09:04:41Z beach: lukego: And I felt no "hostility" whatsoever.
2021-05-12T09:05:44Z beach: lukego: I think I said several times that I understand your point of view.
2021-05-12T09:07:47Z Nilby: nij: simple naïve system checksum using ironclad: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2438#2438
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2021-05-12T10:26:27Z jackdaniel: so much backlog, whew
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2021-05-12T11:07:22Z splittist: This yak is getting razor burn https://snipboard.io/2TFn5W.jpg
2021-05-12T11:08:05Z phoe calls for first aid
2021-05-12T11:08:20Z phoe: nice!
2021-05-12T11:08:22Z lukego: splittist: 🔥
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2021-05-12T11:09:01Z pjb: splittist: sent it to the Alps! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gY0Pnp-9Hjk
2021-05-12T11:09:32Z lukego: splittist: How do you judge that :HUGE is the appropriate text size for a short string inside a 100x100 square? text sizing is a bit of a mystery to me
2021-05-12T11:09:54Z lukego realizes he has not read the relevant part of the CLIM docs and goes to do that
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2021-05-12T11:13:42Z jackdaniel: the mapping between keywords and sizes is quite arbitrary
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2021-05-12T11:14:01Z jackdaniel: it is meant as some semantic sizing that adapts to the underlying port
2021-05-12T11:14:02Z lukego: Seems that you can also provide a point size but what does that mean in terms of pixels and/or normal CLIM geometry?
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2021-05-12T11:14:13Z jackdaniel: that said it is possible to specify the size in a number
2021-05-12T11:14:44Z lukego: Just now for example I'd like to draw a string centered in a circle and I'd like for ~ 10 characters to fit before spilling out of the sides. is there a good way to specify that?
2021-05-12T11:14:44Z jackdaniel: currently it means em on 72dpi (so if you have 144 dpi screen, then it will be twice as large as it should be)
2021-05-12T11:15:21Z lukego: or in splittist's example - what you care about is the size of the lambda relative to the size of the rectangle
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2021-05-12T11:16:14Z jackdaniel: say you have text style size 10. then you call text-size on your string with that text style, that gives you metrics for the string
2021-05-12T11:16:24Z jackdaniel: and then you may multiply the text style size to match that
2021-05-12T11:16:35Z jackdaniel: having a pixel-perfect match would require a fixed font
2021-05-12T11:16:54Z jackdaniel: otherwise you have things like kerning and different character widths/heights in a way
2021-05-12T11:17:36Z lukego: I'm not looking for exactness here though, I'd like to e.g. just say how wide an M should be in pixels or something. I'll draw a thousand circles, labelled with a string in the middle of each, and aesthetically I'd like them all to be the same size and "not too many" of them to spill out
2021-05-12T11:18:12Z jackdaniel: as I said, there is a function text-size to asses the size
2021-05-12T11:18:57Z jackdaniel: it returns couple of values, so it is possible to determine pixel-perfect bounding box of the particular text, or the size in font metrics (height = ascent+descent, width = left-bearing + text-width + right-bearing)
2021-05-12T11:21:14Z jackdaniel: since we are sharing lambdas: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EYaTG60XgAMVNX1?format=jpg&name=4096x4096 :-) (an old picture)
2021-05-12T11:21:18Z lukego: ok. I was kind of hoping for a (with-font-height (10 :units :pixels) ...) or something but it sounds like such a beast could be written based on these apis
2021-05-12T11:21:34Z lukego: s/pixels/current geometric units/
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2021-05-12T11:23:46Z lukego: I'm tempted to use CLIM's nice utility functions for drawing tabular data but since this is CAD data I need to be careful e.g. about one unit == one millimeter and can't really rely on automatic sizing of anything but decorations like labels
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2021-05-12T11:25:02Z jackdaniel: also, regarding the text, you may also scale it it fit inside something
2021-05-12T11:25:29Z jackdaniel: (draw-text* s "foo" 35 35 :align-x :center :align-y :center :transformation *scaling* :transform-glyphs t)
2021-05-12T11:26:02Z jackdaniel: text then is, well, scaled (i.e may have distorted dimensions)
2021-05-12T11:28:14Z lukego: narrator: He had already made up his mind to hard-code a magic number because it sounded too complicated.
2021-05-12T11:32:39Z _death: apparently presentation translators are not invoked when typing something for accept? mouse battery died..
2021-05-12T11:33:39Z nij: I'm about to push a repo to quicklisp. It requires me to test it on at least to implementation. How should I do that? Or if anyone can help? Thanks :)
2021-05-12T11:33:57Z jackdaniel: _death: I think that you are right, translators are checked for the pointer input
2021-05-12T11:34:06Z phoe: nij: do you have tests for your code?
2021-05-12T11:34:14Z jackdaniel: I'm not sure what the spec says about string input to accept
2021-05-12T11:34:14Z phoe: can they be run via asdf:test-system?
2021-05-12T11:34:38Z jackdaniel: nij: by "test" it means that you ensure that it runs at least on two implementations
2021-05-12T11:34:51Z jackdaniel: that is a proof of somewhat attainable portability
2021-05-12T11:35:08Z jackdaniel: so run it i.e on sbcl and on ccl, if it works on both then you should be good to go
2021-05-12T11:35:12Z nij: I've only worked with sbcl before. Not really sure how to test it on another implem.
2021-05-12T11:35:17Z jackdaniel: I believe that this is the intention of this requirement
2021-05-12T11:35:38Z splittist: nij: you can get a docker image with lots of implementations specifically for this purpose
2021-05-12T11:36:59Z nij: phoe, sure, tested on sbcl and it returns T
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2021-05-12T11:38:34Z phoe: nij: I mean, it returns T by default, like, always
2021-05-12T11:38:44Z phoe: the question is - does it run your test suite?
2021-05-12T11:39:01Z nij: "Fourth, make sure it builds with ASDF.." What does it mean by "builds"? I've put my repo in local-projects, and loaded with (ql:quickload..) successfully. Does that count?
2021-05-12T11:39:29Z Xach: nij: it means asdf is the way the project's structure is defined and loaded.
2021-05-12T11:39:55Z Xach: nij: it has an .asd file, and doesn't require outside asdf to load the project
2021-05-12T11:40:13Z Xach: some projects require extra steps, like running ./configure or setting environment variables etc, and those are not compatible with quicklisp
2021-05-12T11:40:35Z nij: Yes, then I think that's fine. There's no ./configure or anything like that. Just a plain .asd file.
2021-05-12T11:40:59Z nij: I better learn the testing part carefully tomorrow. After that I'll try to raise an issue. :-)
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2021-05-12T12:09:29Z edvardo_: Why is the standard way to perform recursion in the lambda calculus the Y combinator instead of Lf.Lx.f f x?
2021-05-12T12:10:42Z phoe: edvardo_: I don't know if #lisp is a good forum for mathematics
2021-05-12T12:10:59Z lukego: woo woo I'm starting to write real application code with CLIME now :) visualizing Xilinx BGA pinouts https://twitter.com/lukego/status/1392449057814196228/photo/1
2021-05-12T12:11:06Z nij: Maybe ##lisp is what you are looking for, edvardo_
2021-05-12T12:11:17Z phoe: lukego: nice!!!
2021-05-12T12:11:37Z nij: oh cool lukego
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2021-05-12T12:14:33Z frgo: lukego: That is so very cool and awesome. Keep going!
2021-05-12T12:16:04Z lukego: Here's where I'll need good zoom support though. In each of those little circles I want to be able to write a label like "MGTVCCAUX_RS" and that will take some extra pixels :-) but I'm hoping that since this is vector graphics (SVG) that scaling can just be done locally by Emacs at arbitrary magnification without bothering Lisp for a new version.
2021-05-12T12:16:34Z lukego: Gonna also need a convenient way to toggle viewing the latest CLIM presentation in a full screen window
2021-05-12T12:17:41Z lukego: Maybe actually zooming could be done in such a dedicated buffer/window with a specialized keymap
2021-05-12T12:17:56Z lukego checks what Emacs's existing SVG viewer mode has to offer
2021-05-12T12:18:31Z Shinmera: Is there a relatively supported vector graphics format that's not insane like svg?
2021-05-12T12:18:45Z phoe: nope, you need to make one
2021-05-12T12:19:00Z luis: phoe: does CCL have a default method for file-position like SBCL used to?
2021-05-12T12:19:06Z phoe: you could name it Shinmera's Vector Graphics, for short - svg
2021-05-12T12:19:08Z phoe: luis: let me check
2021-05-12T12:19:42Z Shinmera: phoe: way ahead of you. https://shirakumo.github.io/sf3/#Vector Graphic
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2021-05-12T12:19:51Z Shinmera: ech. https://shirakumo.github.io/sf3/#Vector%20Graphic
2021-05-12T12:19:53Z phoe: luis: (file-position (make-instance 'ccl::fundamental-input-stream)) returns NIL
2021-05-12T12:19:54Z jackdaniel: I don't understand what's insane in embedding a programming language in the vector graphics format
2021-05-12T12:19:57Z jackdaniel: ;)
2021-05-12T12:20:02Z luis: phoe: thanks
2021-05-12T12:20:03Z phoe: Shinmera: :D
2021-05-12T12:20:46Z phoe: luis: same for fundamental output streams
2021-05-12T12:20:54Z White_Flame: Shinmera: there's always PDF ;)
2021-05-12T12:21:48Z lukego: Shinmera: I don't think Gerber would qualify..
2021-05-12T12:22:08Z jackdaniel: coreldraw format has a nice extension: cdr :)
2021-05-12T12:22:17Z White_Flame: swf is somewhat supported, but I think that's more turning into "was"
2021-05-12T12:23:18Z _death: postscript maybe
2021-05-12T12:23:31Z Shinmera: Yeah PS probably comes  the closest.
2021-05-12T12:23:56Z White_Flame: still a programming language, though ;)
2021-05-12T12:24:08Z Shinmera: Right
2021-05-12T12:24:14Z White_Flame: that just happens to have graphics side effects sometimes
2021-05-12T12:24:15Z frgo: Yep, PS. Also good for printing.
2021-05-12T12:24:15Z Shinmera: SWF iirc  also has a JS precursor thingy so
2021-05-12T12:24:38Z Shinmera: anyway, good news is that the SF3V is not useless!
2021-05-12T12:24:43Z Shinmera: Bad news: I need to make it happen
2021-05-12T12:24:59Z luis: phoe: thanks
2021-05-12T12:25:35Z White_Flame: does Cairo have some file format for graphics, or is it all function call based?
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2021-05-12T12:37:23Z jackdaniel: White_Flame: it may be serialized to uchar* but there is no format specification
2021-05-12T12:37:39Z jackdaniel: and deserializing data requires specifying the format, width and height
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2021-05-12T12:57:59Z etimmons: nij fiddlerwoaroof : Both CLPM and Qlot can do version pinning, including of git repos.
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2021-05-12T12:58:44Z etimmons: I think the best solution to version pinning encouraging not updating is to make a regular CI job that updates and runs tests for you. That's trivial with CLPM, I assume it is with Qlot as well
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2021-05-12T13:01:26Z etimmons: nij: I'm not entirely sure about what you want regarding <hash>-hello-2.10. But presumably if you really want such a scheme to be reproducible, you need some service to distribute those hashes as well, no?
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2021-05-12T13:12:10Z etimmons: Does anyone have tools they use to help ensure license compliance when distributing Lisp executables?
2021-05-12T13:12:51Z etimmons: I've been accumulating ad-hoc procedures and scripts, but would very much like to use something else if it already exists
2021-05-12T13:13:25Z jackdaniel: I did something similar in one gig - traversed asdf dependency tree and printed system names and licenses to a csv file
2021-05-12T13:13:35Z jackdaniel: sjl had something in his scripts afair
2021-05-12T13:14:27Z splittist: following lukego's lead (as always), clime used in anger: https://snipboard.io/GYZ7So.jpg
2021-05-12T13:15:17Z etimmons: Did you deal with reproducing copyright statements? ("Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright notice [...]")
2021-05-12T13:15:50Z etimmons: That seems to be the tricky part, especially given the lack of such an explicit copyright statement in many CL projects
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2021-05-12T13:17:33Z jackdaniel: no, I was putting them in predefined license categories (using spdx identifiers) and acted on that. custom licenses were not accepted into dependencies
2021-05-12T13:18:28Z jackdaniel: (if a particular string was not recognized, then the debugger popped out so I could add it manually and use that from then on)
2021-05-12T13:18:39Z etimmons: That's a requirement from BSD license, though. MIT has something similar as well.
2021-05-12T13:20:57Z jackdaniel: by "no" I mean that this was not a purpose of the tool. this act was to ensure, that there are no undesired dependencies (direct or indirect), not to decide what should be redistributed
2021-05-12T13:21:13Z jackdaniel: that tool was not redistributed at all (only accessed from the outside)
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2021-05-12T13:24:12Z etimmons: ah, got ya
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2021-05-12T14:01:58Z luis: Anyone played with https://franz.com/ftp/pri/acl/cgjs/?
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2021-05-12T14:25:44Z lukego: splittist: nice :)
2021-05-12T14:26:33Z lukego: Maybe I need to switch from me 1080p laptop to 4K desktop for Emacs at this point..
2021-05-12T14:28:05Z lukego: or maybe both at once... I see there is `M-x make-frame-on-display'
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2021-05-12T14:30:43Z luis: lukego: sadly Emacs is not DPI-aware on Windows (hopefully the situation is better on Mac/Linux)
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2021-05-12T14:33:26Z jackdaniel: I think that Mac requires so many workarounds to make software written for Linux run (and more with each release) that mentioning them together may be slightly misleading
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2021-05-12T14:40:11Z xristos: Emacs (mitsuharu branch) looks great on macOS, incl hidpi support, double buffering and so on
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2021-05-12T14:57:43Z lukego: I haven't exercised it too hard but I get quite beautiful basic results running Emacs on a 34" 4K display with xrandr dpi option to boost the size way up (uncorrelated with the /actual/ DPI because I am just using it as a magnification knob...)
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2021-05-12T14:58:30Z lukego: I'm now imagining that I could edit on my laptop and have the whole 4K screen automatically showing an insanely zoomed-in copy of the most recently selected CLIME image. that could be something :)
2021-05-12T14:59:17Z pbaille: I'm wondering if a lisp can have only quasiquote and no regular quote. What would be the downsides ? (sorry if this message appears for the second time, I can't tell if it was posted or not)
2021-05-12T15:00:35Z beach: Do you mean "no reader macro '", or "no special operator QUOTE"?
2021-05-12T15:00:51Z _death: `(foo ',bar).. you don't need either of course, (list (quote foo) (list (quote quote) bar))
2021-05-12T15:00:53Z beach: I think the former is definitely possible.  Not so much the latter.
2021-05-12T15:02:22Z phoe: pbaille: a quasiquote without any unquotes inside is equivalent to a regular quote
2021-05-12T15:02:48Z jackdaniel: mind that quasiquote may allocate new data (hence it is not equivalent, vide ^)
2021-05-12T15:02:51Z lukego: pbaille: Guessing that's fine provided that you use (QUOTE x) instead of 'x. But if you plan to use quasiquote instead of quote it will become confusing in certain kinds of code that uses nested quote/quasiquote e.g. `(foo ',(...)) because more quasiquotes means more levels of unquoting
2021-05-12T15:03:23Z pbaille: yes it is equivalent but why the regular quote is needed , if it is a subset of quasiquote ?
2021-05-12T15:03:37Z jackdaniel: quote is a special operator in common lisp
2021-05-12T15:03:50Z jackdaniel: quasiquote is a reader syntactic sugar (i.e not a special operator)
2021-05-12T15:03:54Z phoe: pbaille: because quasiquote is expressed in terms of quote in CL
2021-05-12T15:04:18Z phoe: if you wanted to avoid this, you'd need to have quasiquote as a special operator of sorts, likely along with unquote
2021-05-12T15:04:22Z jackdaniel: also I think that the proper name is backquote
2021-05-12T15:04:31Z pbaille: Yes I understand, but if someone was creating a new dialect of lisp that only has quasiquote it would be acceptable ?
2021-05-12T15:04:41Z phoe: pbaille: I guess so, yeah
2021-05-12T15:04:43Z phoe: jackdaniel: yes, thanks
2021-05-12T15:04:55Z pbaille: quasiquote is maybe the name in scheme literature
2021-05-12T15:05:09Z beach: pbaille: You still haven't answered my question, because the answer to yours depends on it.
2021-05-12T15:05:26Z phoe: yes, CLHS uses backquote whereas e.g. Racket docs call it quasiquote
2021-05-12T15:06:12Z pbaille: beach: I'm sorry I was a bit distracted, I was meaning no special operator QUOTE
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2021-05-12T15:06:34Z beach: pbaille: Then the answer is that you can't do without it, as lukego pointed out.
2021-05-12T15:06:38Z phoe: pbaille: if you have nothing else that you can replace QUOTE with then you're toast
2021-05-12T15:06:54Z pbaille: (I'm not a CL person (I came from clojure) so I may not understand all CL sutleties)
2021-05-12T15:07:00Z phoe: basically, you need some means of preventing standard evaluation rules from kicking in
2021-05-12T15:07:17Z phoe: regardless of whether it's special operator QUOTE or special operator BACKQUOTE
2021-05-12T15:07:45Z phoe: where "special operator", in CL-speech, means "an operator that does not obey standard evaluation rules and also is not a macro"
2021-05-12T15:08:02Z phoe: basically, you need some primitive that will fulfill the role that CL:QUOTE fulfills in standard CL
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2021-05-12T15:08:23Z phoe: if your backquote is such an operator, then bingo, you can implement QUOTE in terms of it
2021-05-12T15:08:29Z phoe: (though it would be kinda backwards)
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2021-05-12T15:09:19Z jackdaniel: if you implement a "new dialect of lisp" then you don't need quote because you are designing a new programming language
2021-05-12T15:09:31Z jackdaniel: with its own evaluation rules
2021-05-12T15:10:15Z jackdaniel: but you need a PR team that will argue on reddit that your new dialect of lisp is a lisp :-)
2021-05-12T15:10:23Z jackdaniel: (public relations, not pull request)
2021-05-12T15:11:07Z pbaille: jackdaniel: haha yes I see !
2021-05-12T15:11:18Z pbaille: phoe: thank you for the details
2021-05-12T15:11:30Z lukego: pbaille: I think that for some kinds of code you would miss having ' e.g. in macro-writing macros or html-writing macros and such. The simplest example I can think of it (let ((arg 'quote-me)) `(f ',arg)) => (F 'QUOTE-ME). here you want to preserve the quote inside the backquote while unquoting its argument. If you used two backquotes it would be... different.
2021-05-12T15:12:30Z pbaille: I was studying this dialect of lisp (which maybe isn't one): https://convex.world/documentation/tutorial
2021-05-12T15:12:44Z lukego: pbaille: I'm taking your question in the spirit of, "Is quote just there for historical reasons and obsolete with respect to quasiquote?" and the answer to that in practice is no, you want to use both in real programs.
2021-05-12T15:13:11Z pbaille: lukego: yes I understand, nice point.
2021-05-12T15:13:34Z _death: https://people.csail.mit.edu/gregs/ll1-discuss-archive-html/msg04323.html
2021-05-12T15:13:43Z pbaille: lukego: Your interpretation of my question is correct
2021-05-12T15:14:21Z lukego: pbaille: I vaguely remember wondering the same thing and being surprised at how useful plain ol' quote turns out to be :)
2021-05-12T15:14:52Z jackdaniel: _death: thanks! looks like an interesting read
2021-05-12T15:16:48Z _death: there are many interesting posts in ll1-discuss
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2021-05-12T15:26:15Z pbaille: thank you so much for all your observations on my 'question :) see you next time !
2021-05-12T15:31:00Z lukego: yeah ll1-discuss is where they _finally_ got the right people in the room to settle a bunch of questions that had been a source of flame wars for decades :)
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2021-05-12T15:38:29Z _death: I have it as a gnus-friendly archive, along with cl-su-ai and saildart
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2021-05-12T15:54:19Z lukego: splittist: oh btw I'm churning out little CLIME pictures that have 1500 presentations each and nothing anywhere is breaking a sweat. I can do ACCEPT and pick which of the 1517 little circles I'm interested in
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2021-05-12T16:05:54Z splittist: lukego: awesome. The best kind of software - immediately useful (:
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2021-05-12T16:35:42Z flip214: scymtym: re clim.flamegraph branch advice-backend: ;   The function CLIM:DRAW-ELLIPSE* is called with odd number of keyword arguments.
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2021-05-12T16:38:11Z flip214: and if I choose threads, start/stop without there being any activity, start is MOST-POSITIVE-FIXNUM, end is MOST-NEGATIVE-FIXNUM, and the duration doesn't make any sense ;/
2021-05-12T16:41:25Z scymtym: flip214: let me try to reproduce
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2021-05-12T16:46:54Z flip214: I just cloned _your_ clim, to be on the safe side ... but ASDF stops because of DRAW-ELLIPSE
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2021-05-12T16:46:57Z flip214: *
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2021-05-12T16:50:53Z scymtym: i was going to ask about the DRAW-ELLIPSE error. i cloned everything in a fresh environment and i cannot reproduce that. can you describe in more details what happens?
2021-05-12T16:52:14Z flip214: COMPILE-FILE-ERROR while compiling #<CL-SOURCE-FILE "clim.flamegraph.view" "timeline" "presentations">
2021-05-12T16:52:29Z flip214: ; caught WARNING:
2021-05-12T16:52:29Z flip214: ;   The function CLIM:DRAW-ELLIPSE* is called with odd number of keyword arguments.
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2021-05-12T16:52:44Z flip214: and the warning seems to be fatal.
2021-05-12T16:53:11Z flip214: If I just comment out the DRAW-ELLIPSE* via #+(or), I can load the advice-backend branch.
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2021-05-12T16:53:30Z flip214:       (clim:draw-ellipse* stream start end 10 dx 0 0 dy))))
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2021-05-12T16:55:40Z flip214: and trying to use (clim.flamegraph.examples.recording:with-recording () ...) freezes my SBCL so hard that I have to kill -9 it....
2021-05-12T17:00:45Z scymtym: flip214: i see the DRAW-ELLIPSE* problem. can you disable the sprof source in WITH-RECORDING? i was trying to keep up with the upstream sprof changes but i probably messed something up so that it doesn't work with your SBCL version. and you wanted deterministic profiling anyway, right?
2021-05-12T17:01:45Z flip214: yes please, with a side order of reliability
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2021-05-12T17:02:20Z flip214: but WITH-RECORDING is only run _after_ loading, and loading fails because of D-E, so how should that help?
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2021-05-12T17:02:52Z scymtym: to be fair, i said "if you feel adventurous …"
2021-05-12T17:03:38Z jackdaniel: Zork II: The Wizard of Frobozz
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2021-05-12T17:06:06Z scymtym: flip214: i pushed a fix for the DRAW-ELLIPSE* problem
2021-05-12T17:07:07Z sjl: jackdaniel: etimmons: someone turned my hack into a library https://github.com/vindarel/print-licenses
2021-05-12T17:07:08Z _death: I think I mentioned this the other day on #sbcl, but with-profiling is currently a bit broken: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/master/contrib/sb-sprof/interface.lisp#L90 (no such thing as max-traces)
2021-05-12T17:07:10Z flip214: scymtym: no problem at all!!! sorry if that sounded sarcastic or so, I tried to be funny (and failed, obviously ;)
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2021-05-12T17:08:10Z jackdaniel: oh, I'm even credited there, cool! (I'm going to make a coffee and contemplate my fame ,)
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2021-05-12T17:09:44Z scymtym: _death: you would have to talk to dougk. he is basically the code owner of sb-sprof now
2021-05-12T17:09:49Z scymtym: flip214: no worries
2021-05-12T17:10:00Z flip214: scymtym: I get quite a few warnings when compiling, BTW
2021-05-12T17:10:16Z flip214: ;   Undefined variables:
2021-05-12T17:10:16Z flip214: ;     CLIM.FLAMEGRAPH.VIEW.TIMELINE::*START-TIME* CLIM.FLAMEGRAPH.APPLICATION::RUN
2021-05-12T17:10:22Z flip214: is the last entry
2021-05-12T17:11:20Z scymtym: flip214: that's expected. the whole thing is prototype quality at best. but a few others and i have used it to diagnose actual issues
2021-05-12T17:12:03Z flip214: And I should delete this here??   :depends-on "clim.flamegraph.backend.sb-sprof"
2021-05-12T17:12:25Z flip214: in sbcl-defaults.asd
2021-05-12T17:13:16Z flip214: hmmm, no, that gives me  READ error during LOAD: Package CLIM.FLAMEGRAPH.BACKEND.SB-SPROF does not exist.
2021-05-12T17:13:33Z scymtym: you can keep that if the systems loads. just remove the sprof source in CALL-WITH-RECORDING
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2021-05-12T17:14:11Z flip214: ah,                                (make-instance 'clim.flamegraph.backend.sb-sprof::source
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2021-05-12T17:15:26Z flip214: still hangs when I try to use it
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2021-05-12T17:17:25Z scymtym: which SBCL version are you using?
2021-05-12T17:17:47Z scymtym: you could also try disabling the memory source. that one records gc events and memory statistics
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2021-05-12T17:23:03Z flip214: 2.1.3.... will do
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2021-05-12T17:24:36Z flip214: still dead in the water
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2021-05-12T17:25:33Z scymtym: i'm building that SBCL version to see what the problem could be
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2021-05-12T17:31:04Z flip214: well, if you use 2.1.4 and it works I'll just upgrade
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2021-05-12T18:05:18Z scymtym: flip214: in a container, i built SBCL 2.1.3 from source, cloned all libraries from github and tried the example. i can't reproduce the freeze, sorry
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2021-05-12T18:08:16Z flip214: scymtym: thanks a lot!
2021-05-12T18:08:41Z flip214: well, I could try to use strace.... swank is dead, a new connection doesn't work.
2021-05-12T18:08:57Z flip214: would a gdb trace of all threads help perhaps? Guess that's too noisy...
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2021-05-12T18:17:02Z scymtym: not sure if that would help. can you try without swank, though?
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2021-05-12T18:18:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: etimmons: the goal of CLPM to be "A package manager for Common Lisp that strives to cleanly separate the package manager process itself from the client image that uses it." is the opposite of what I want
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2021-05-12T18:18:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: I want all the metadata about the history of an image to be within the image at all times
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2021-05-12T18:22:03Z etimmons: Interesting. What metadata do you want in the image? The main focus of multiple processes in CLPM is to offload things like HTTP(S), git, untaring, etc.
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2021-05-12T18:25:15Z etimmons: The metadata that stays in the image is whatever ASDF needs to find the files on the filesystem. But more could possibly be added.
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2021-05-12T18:36:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: For one thing, I'd like the information about the origin of a system to be in the repository: git url, commit hash, etc.
2021-05-12T18:36:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: s/repository/image/
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2021-05-12T18:38:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, also, I like how quicklisp and ASDF pull things that are usually external tools into the image
2021-05-12T18:38:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: Things that go the opposite direction generally seem to be solving problems I don't have
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2021-05-12T19:08:05Z etimmons: Yeah, I would love to have easy in-image access to system provenance as well.
2021-05-12T19:08:28Z etimmons: It'd be neat to have an interface defined for that, separate from any particular package manager. If that existed, I'd happily make CLPM expose info via that interface.
2021-05-12T19:08:46Z etimmons: Until then, I'll add exposing it from the clpm-client package to my TODO list.
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2021-05-12T21:12:45Z jmercouris: etimmons: are you the developer of CLPM?
2021-05-12T21:13:22Z jmercouris: I would guess so based on your username
2021-05-12T21:13:50Z jmercouris: I think it would help if you had a little cookbook so people could get started with CLPM
2021-05-12T21:14:00Z jmercouris: I tried following your presentation, but the format was incredibly difficult to follow for me
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2021-05-12T21:53:08Z etimmons: jmercouris: I am! And yeah, I really need to make some more accessible resources. I tend to be long winded on things like this. I think the last half of my ELS paper is a decent starting point for "I just want to use CLPM; what do I need to do?"
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2021-05-12T21:56:33Z MrtnDk[m]: eric  What's stopping you?
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2021-05-12T21:59:06Z etimmons: Time mostly
2021-05-12T21:59:33Z MrtnDk[m]: Ah yea, that darn time.
2021-05-12T22:00:14Z etimmons: 'tis a precious commodity
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2021-05-12T22:10:32Z xristos: etimmons: some suggestions for clpm, i'd do away with the installation part and have a release be a self-contained single binary I can just drop in my PATH
2021-05-12T22:11:00Z xristos: it can spit out the client library code (if needed) in the same way it spits out configurations
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2021-05-12T22:12:43Z xristos: a decentralized mode would also be nice, imo centralized package indices are a cardinal sin
2021-05-12T22:13:44Z xristos: something like go get -u <url>
2021-05-12T22:14:03Z xristos: but also having the dependencies be specified as URLs by the package author in the package itself
2021-05-12T22:14:19Z xristos: to avoid the middleman
2021-05-12T22:14:39Z etimmons: It actually can do that! `clpm client cat` spits out the client as a single file.
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2021-05-12T22:15:53Z etimmons: The 0.4.0 release will be coming Real Soon Now (basically as soon as I get my hands on an M1 - probably ~2 weeks). I can pretty easily publish tarballs and bare executables when I post it
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2021-05-12T22:18:09Z etimmons: I'm interested in what you mean by a decentralized mode. The problem with URLs specified by the package author is maybe they're using an old fork of a dep, or I want to use something slightly different.
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2021-05-12T22:18:38Z etimmons: does go get -u fully implement what you mean? If so, I'll take a look at it
2021-05-12T22:19:11Z xristos: well go package management is decentralized
2021-05-12T22:19:20Z xristos: (with optional centralization)
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2021-05-12T22:21:57Z xristos: if i publish a library, i specify the packages it uses, their location, their versions and the cryptographic checksums
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2021-05-12T22:22:01Z etimmons: Hmmm, I've used go only a tiny bit and never really looked at its package management. I'll take a look and try to understand it
2021-05-12T22:22:34Z xristos: so the entire dependency tree is specified by the package author and not looked up at runtime
2021-05-12T22:23:08Z etimmons: But how does it reconcile another library using the same deps with different versions?
2021-05-12T22:23:37Z etimmons: Is go one of those languages where multiple versions of the same package can coexist at runtime?
2021-05-12T22:23:50Z xristos: yes
2021-05-12T22:24:25Z etimmons: ahhh, that explains it
2021-05-12T22:25:22Z etimmons: I'm not sure how to map that to CL. I know there was some discussion earlier about an ELS paper on strategic renaming of packages, but that doesn't seem ready for primetime
2021-05-12T22:26:59Z etimmons: I could forsee clpm easily supporting a mode where the person running clpm could provide sort of a local index that overrode the centralized remote indices, though
2021-05-12T22:27:16Z xristos: i'm not really talking about multiple library versions in the same process
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2021-05-12T22:27:54Z xristos: but for a library author to be able to specify his dependencies (with exact versions and cryptographic sums) as part of the package itself
2021-05-12T22:28:06Z xristos: therefore enabling reproducible builds
2021-05-12T22:28:38Z MichaelRaskin: To be fair, Quicklisp from a fixed distinfo version is no less reproducible
2021-05-12T22:28:44Z xristos: and transparent software provenance without middlemen (thus being able to make guarantees)
2021-05-12T22:30:54Z etimmons: OK, so are you thinking of using this mostly when building applications? And not when using it as a library? Otherwise we'd have to deal with the inevitable case of systems A and B using C, but publishing different metadata about C
2021-05-12T22:31:00Z MichaelRaskin: I would believe in long chains of trust (because that's what you describe) _less_ than a single middleman with enough investment
2021-05-12T22:31:23Z xristos: MichaelRaskin: I'm not sure what you mean by enough investment
2021-05-12T22:31:32Z xristos: Quicklisp has been vulnerable for years for example
2021-05-12T22:31:52Z xristos: I think it still fetches upstream sources from plain http sources
2021-05-12T22:32:18Z xristos: but that's the least of it, the entire model is broken in ways that package management in Go (for example) doesn't suffer from
2021-05-12T22:32:23Z xristos: and that's ok, different tradeoffs
2021-05-12T22:32:49Z MichaelRaskin: Well, I think there are upstreams that do not offer https at all…
2021-05-12T22:32:50Z xristos: i'm not advocating against centralized package indices, but an alternative would be nice and we don't have that for CL
2021-05-12T22:33:41Z MichaelRaskin: An alternative would require buy-in across
2021-05-12T22:34:18Z etimmons: Thanks for the pointer, I was unaware go was decentralized. I'll take a look at it
2021-05-12T22:34:29Z xristos: MichaelRaskin: not really, most folks already publish on github/gitlab and so on
2021-05-12T22:34:48Z xristos: it could be done in a similar way to Go
2021-05-12T22:34:56Z MichaelRaskin: And specify dependencies under assumption of Quicklisp
2021-05-12T22:34:57Z xristos: and people could start using it from day 1
2021-05-12T22:35:01Z etimmons: My personal end goal has been a package index where CL developers could publish their projects at their own pace
2021-05-12T22:35:51Z MichaelRaskin: Well, you can use Ultralisp if you want faster (and less compatibility-tested) updates
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2021-05-12T22:37:47Z xristos: MichaelRaskin: so no buy-in required, folks can keep doing what they're already doing, but now I have the option when writing a new library to specify dependencies in this manner
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2021-05-12T22:39:13Z MichaelRaskin: Specify where?
2021-05-12T22:39:17Z xristos: in my own library
2021-05-12T22:39:27Z MichaelRaskin: As a separate extra metadata file?
2021-05-12T22:39:42Z etimmons: Ultralisp is a step in the right direction, but it still suffers from some Quicklisp flaws (like lack of provenance metadata, system version numbers, and historical releases are difficult to discover)
2021-05-12T22:39:55Z xristos: as a .lisp file that's part of the library itself (equiv to go.mod and go.sum files)
2021-05-12T22:40:13Z xristos: and then folks that want to use it would need a package manager that supports this scheme
2021-05-12T22:40:35Z xristos: which is fine, especially if that package manager came as a single standalone executable
2021-05-12T22:40:42Z MichaelRaskin: … or fork it to make it actually usable with Ultralisp, I guess
2021-05-12T22:41:16Z MichaelRaskin: One thing where we
2021-05-12T22:41:40Z MichaelRaskin: did not have worse than Javascript ecosystem was incompetent vendoring
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2021-05-12T22:44:40Z etimmons: Fork what to work with Ultralisp?
2021-05-12T22:45:48Z MichaelRaskin: Whatever library specifies dependencies in a unique way and not just as usual ASDF dependencies
2021-05-12T22:47:33Z etimmons: I assumed xristos meant the proposed metadata file would be in addition to ASDF dependencies
2021-05-12T22:48:13Z MichaelRaskin: > and then folks that want to use it would need a package manager that supports this scheme
2021-05-12T22:49:27Z etimmons: I assumed that "use it" referred to the extra security. But I could be wrong
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2021-05-12T22:51:02Z MichaelRaskin: Sure, it would be nice if Quicklisp included the exact upstrean reference. In Nixpkgs I would probably switch to generating upstream fetches for Common Lisp packages.
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2021-05-12T22:52:51Z etimmons: There was some initial talk of that at https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-controller/issues/18
2021-05-12T22:53:52Z etimmons: anyways, dinner time! I'll add looking at go package management to my TODO list, to at least better understand what's out there
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2021-05-12T23:23:50Z pjb: etimmons: (com.informatimago.tools.quicklisp:quick-where-from "alexandria") #|  prints: (:system "alexandria" :distribution "quicklisp" :directory #P"/Users/pjb/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/alexandria-20210411-git/" :where-from ("git" "https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/alexandria/alexandria.git"))  --> nil |#
2021-05-12T23:23:50Z pjb: etimmons: (com.informatimago.tools.quicklisp:project-where-from "alexandria") #| --> ("git" "https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/alexandria/alexandria.git") |#
2021-05-12T23:24:14Z pjb: etimmons: on the other hand, it's implemented inly for "quicklisp" distribution. Patches welcome.
2021-05-12T23:25:09Z pjb: Note some surprises:  (com.informatimago.tools.quicklisp:quick-where-from "cl-ppcre") #| prints: (:system "cl-ppcre" :distribution "quicklisp" :directory #P"/Users/pjb/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/cl-ppcre-20190521-git/" :where-from ("ediware-http" "cl-ppcre"))  --> nil |#  is stored in a -git directory but it's ediware-http, not "git"…
2021-05-12T23:25:09Z pjb puzzled
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2021-05-12T23:43:22Z stylewarning: Anybody have a SLIME hack top make (MAKE-INSTANCE foo <rest>) indent <rest> as body forms?
2021-05-12T23:43:26Z stylewarning: s/top/to/
2021-05-12T23:43:52Z stylewarning: aligning to FOO is the nuttiest waste of horizontal whitespace
2021-05-12T23:44:42Z no-defun-allowed: I thought heisig had a list of modifications, with that being one, but I lost it.
2021-05-12T23:45:31Z stylewarning: . o O (Where is heisig and why is it not IRC?)
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2021-05-12T23:56:19Z Bike: stylewarning: (put 'make-instance 'common-lisp-indent-function 1)
2021-05-12T23:56:40Z stylewarning: :]]]]]
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2021-05-12T23:58:21Z stylewarning: Bike: it can't be that easy, what is the catch
2021-05-12T23:59:52Z pjb: stylewarning: it's as old as emacs?
2021-05-13T00:00:08Z Bike: check the documentation on common-lisp-indent-function for details
2021-05-13T00:00:11Z pjb: stylewarning: it's not a slime hack.
2021-05-13T00:00:18Z Bike: 1 means "indent the first thing like a function argument, the rest like a body"
2021-05-13T00:00:42Z stylewarning: yeah i understand it; i was just trying to exaggerate how easy and simple emacs is by improving it with One Weird Trick
2021-05-13T00:01:14Z stylewarning: (i understand it but i did not know about it; thanks!)
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2021-05-13T00:02:23Z Bike: no problem
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2021-05-13T01:18:13Z White_Flame: here's a problem:  define some *FEATURES* flags, load some systems, but some systems pull cached .fasls that were built with other *FEATURES* enabled
2021-05-13T01:19:10Z White_Flame: something that comes to mind is that .fasl files should record which #+/#- tests were performed
2021-05-13T01:19:33Z White_Flame: and be considered out of date if the current *features* don't reflect the same
2021-05-13T01:19:56Z White_Flame: or is that something that can/should be managed at the asdf/ql level?
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2021-05-13T01:20:48Z aryzach: Hey, I've never used IRC before. I'm having an issue with sbcl and was pointed here
2021-05-13T01:21:02Z White_Flame: the particular flags here are the no-ssl flags from hunchentoot/socket.
2021-05-13T01:21:27Z White_Flame: but if *features* is the wrong place for those, then the problem still exists in whatever arbitrary pre-load config is used
2021-05-13T01:21:39Z White_Flame: so a singular place to track would be beneficial
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2021-05-13T01:24:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: lukego: I'm not sure if this goes best here, in #slime or in #clim :) but I now want a little widget area in my repl I can draw to with CLIM
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2021-05-13T01:25:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: Like a toolbar or something, so that when do something like (+ (accept 'integer) (accept 'integer)), there's presentations "pinned" somewhere in my repl for quick access
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2021-05-13T01:28:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: (Not demanding, just articulating my current thoughts about CLIME)
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2021-05-13T01:29:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://snipboard.io/Jcl80H.jpg
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2021-05-13T01:30:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: Also, interesting feedback about the macos situation: my work mac (x86,emacs 28) displays things correctly; my personal mac (arm64, emacs 27) doesn't
2021-05-13T01:31:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: Maybe I'll try getting emacsGit on my personal mac tonight
2021-05-13T01:31:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: This is like next-level Lisp REPL stuff
2021-05-13T01:32:13Z White_Flame: ackchyually, it's previous level lisp repl stuff :-
2021-05-13T01:32:15Z White_Flame: :-P
2021-05-13T01:33:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: :'(
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2021-05-13T01:34:05Z White_Flame: (re the previous lisp OS repls)
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2021-05-13T01:43:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: I get it :)
2021-05-13T01:44:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, now the question is, can I run clim-listener inside emacs . . .
2021-05-13T01:44:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think I might port the glue code to javascript too
2021-05-13T01:44:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: Anyways, time for dinner
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2021-05-13T01:48:19Z pjb: White_Flame: it's difficult to collect the tests, since #+/#- tests are performed at read-time (of compilation-time).  Furthermore, some other tests of *features* could be performed explicitely in eg. eval-when at compilation-time or load-time.
2021-05-13T01:48:39Z pjb: White_Flame: but I agree that this is something that should be considered.
2021-05-13T01:49:07Z pjb: White_Flame: in my build processes, notably for production, clearing the cache and compiling everything from scratch is usual.
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2021-05-13T01:49:49Z White_Flame: right, I mean that the #+/#- readers need to notify their context of the test, and teh fasl file format might store the subset of tested symbols that are present/missing
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2021-05-13T01:50:14Z White_Flame: it wouldn't work to store the entire features list, as only the tested ones matter for the building of that file
2021-05-13T01:50:31Z White_Flame: but yes, that detection can be foiled, but at least the standard boolean feature usage would be tracked
2021-05-13T01:50:39Z pjb: White_Flame: this could be combined with the compilation-unit.
2021-05-13T01:50:51Z White_Flame: yep
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2021-05-13T01:53:02Z pjb: I don't see how it could be implemented conveniently in a conforming way (the dispatching reader macros could be substituted, but it would be more difficult for explicit tests that can use a number of different operators).  The implementation could detect that *features* is passed as argument to certain functions, and record the test results.
2021-05-13T01:54:07Z White_Flame: yeah, my idea would simply be that the default reader macro implementations implicity perform the recording
2021-05-13T01:54:16Z pjb: (member 'my-package::foo *features*)
2021-05-13T01:54:23Z White_Flame: if the info isn't known to the fasl, then it won't make any decision on that particular feature flag
2021-05-13T01:54:32Z pjb: White_Flame: well, I'm thinking about explicit tests too because we have a featurep CDR…
2021-05-13T01:54:44Z White_Flame: afk
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2021-05-13T02:24:17Z lottaquestions: Hi all, what is the lispschool IRC?
2021-05-13T02:24:52Z lottaquestions: my chat client catastrophically broke down and I lost all my saved settings
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2021-05-13T02:30:06Z no-defun-allowed: #clschool?
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2021-05-13T02:30:43Z no-defun-allowed: stylewarning: call it the CDDR
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2021-05-13T02:31:36Z lottaquestions: no-defun-allowed: Thanks
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2021-05-13T02:48:33Z lukego: fiddlerwoaroof: pinned presentations are exactly what I'm about to hack! :-) I was thinking about this while walking the dog too. I'm thinking or now a `slime-clime-remember' command that just appends an image to some buffer, e.g. *clim remembered*, which you can then select from alongside the REPL. This should be easy and work well because in Emacs it already works to copy-paste the images anywhere you like
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2021-05-13T02:58:29Z pjb: lottaquestions: #clschool also have a look at http://cliki.net/IRC  http://cliki.net/Getting+Started http://cliki.net/Online+Tutorial
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2021-05-13T03:02:59Z ahungry: I've always hated that that domain is very unfortunately named - what you would think it would be is not CL related at all - was the thought process, "Hey, this domain is taken, so drop the w and let many confused users hit the wrong site?"
2021-05-13T03:03:44Z pjb: ahungry: CL = Common Lisp wIKI = wiki. CLIKI seem to be obvious.
2021-05-13T03:03:54Z ahungry: Should have just went with lispwiki.(com|net|org) or commonlispwiki or something
2021-05-13T03:04:05Z ahungry: So, why would the 'w' being omitted be obvious?
2021-05-13T03:04:11Z ahungry: in Common Lisp Wiki?
2021-05-13T03:04:13Z pjb: ahungry: you can always get those domain and redirect them.
2021-05-13T03:04:35Z pjb: ahungry: or ask common-lisp.net to add a wiki.common-lisp.net redirected to cliki.net
2021-05-13T03:04:42Z lukego: I'm not really feeling an urgent need for CLIM "Commands" yet. Seems like if I have a REPL somewhere then I can get a lot of mileage out of just calling (ACCEPT 'FOO) and then manipulating it using code like (describe *) etc.
2021-05-13T03:04:50Z ahungry: thats not a bad idea, although all the literature has cliki.net propagated out there, and if someone goes to type it from memory, its very easy to incorrectly remember
2021-05-13T03:05:09Z ahungry: Was a huge WTF when I first started with CL
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2021-05-13T03:05:19Z pjb: common-lisp.net: Registry Tech ID: REDACTED FOR PRIVACY
2021-05-13T03:06:03Z pjb: ahungry: if you google for common lisp wiki, you find cliki.net as the first result.
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2021-05-13T03:06:31Z pjb: There's also a https://lisp-lang.org/wiki/
2021-05-13T03:06:37Z ahungry: Hm, I'm not gonna try to visit it, but it looks like the missing 'w' domain isn't registered on whois anymore
2021-05-13T03:06:38Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-05-13T04:16:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: White_Flame: I put a little thing together with eclector that re-implemented those sharp sign macros
2021-05-13T04:16:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: To generate forms
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2021-05-13T04:22:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think it'd be nice to have a standardized IR for READ that's equivalent to the textual syntax that is then macro-expanded to the conforming behavior
2021-05-13T04:25:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: Although, this is probably impossible without forcing everyone to rewrite their reader macros :)
2021-05-13T04:25:43Z White_Flame: eh, the reader macro interface is weak anyway
2021-05-13T04:25:54Z White_Flame: only 1 character dispatch, and only 1 char of readahead
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2021-05-13T04:27:31Z White_Flame: (btw, after entirely too long did I (presumably) parse your handel correctly, assuming the "wo" stands for "without" :) )
2021-05-13T04:27:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: Isn't the issue figuring out how much of the file a macro function will consume?
2021-05-13T04:27:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: White_Flame: it does
2021-05-13T04:27:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: It was a sort of lame joke I thought of as a teenager, and it's stuck around
2021-05-13T04:28:33Z White_Flame: a reader macro is just given the stream; are there other things involved that need to predict the length that it will consume?
2021-05-13T04:28:38Z moon-child: OH
2021-05-13T04:30:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: White_Flame: no, but I think that makes it impossible to go from Text -> IR -> the conforming return value for read, right?
2021-05-13T04:30:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: Unless you do something like record what text was read and then pass it as a string to an intermediate reader-macro function
2021-05-13T04:31:02Z White_Flame: oh, you mean if #+ etc generated source that performed the test in the expanded code
2021-05-13T04:31:16Z White_Flame: and yeah, I don't think that'd be able to work
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2021-05-13T04:31:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: Sort of #+foo (a) (b) => (ir:toplevel (ir:feature-test foo (a)) (b)) -> (b)
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2021-05-13T04:32:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: You can do this by re-implementing all the reader macros to be aware of the IR step
2021-05-13T04:32:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: dividing them in half, basicaly
2021-05-13T04:32:49Z White_Flame: that really would only work if you're going to evaluate the forms
2021-05-13T04:33:24Z White_Flame: (let ((stuff '(a b #+sbcl c #-sbcl d))) ...)
2021-05-13T04:33:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, you could cheat by tracking the string position and passing the string contents as a string
2021-05-13T04:33:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: Or do something like this: https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/lisp-sandbox/blob/master/eclector-test.lisp
2021-05-13T04:33:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: s/string contents/stream contents/
2021-05-13T04:34:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: Which effectively replaces the standard readtable
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2021-05-13T05:00:24Z lukego: Is there a kind of wrapper stream that adds indentation? I'm writing some recursive DESCRIBE-OBJECT methods and I'd like to have the inner ones indented more but I don't think there's a standard printer variable to look at for this
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2021-05-13T05:07:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: lukego: the pretty-printer can do that
2021-05-13T05:07:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: But it's sort of annoying
2021-05-13T05:07:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: PPRINT-LOGICAL-BLOCK and then PPRINT-INDENT inside
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2021-05-13T05:08:00Z lukego: Every time I try to do this via the pretty printer I end up failing :-| and doesn't it require every method at every level to use pretty printer directives? Or does it "just work" with normal code doing format with ~& and ~% ?
2021-05-13T05:08:25Z lukego: I think I'm looking for something more loosely coupled that this
2021-05-13T05:09:06Z White_Flame: yeah, I've had custom print-object methods that I wanted to be included in with the pretty-print indentation, but never got far
2021-05-13T05:09:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think PPRINT-INDENT applies after every newline
2021-05-13T05:09:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, I've always been a bit annoyed by it
2021-05-13T05:10:00Z lukego notices something called INDENTING-OUTPUT
2021-05-13T05:10:05Z lukego: oh that's CLIM :)
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2021-05-13T05:22:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've thought that a bunch of this stuff in CLIM should be extracted into standalone libraries
2021-05-13T05:23:23Z beach: That's a very good idea.  Doing so will put pressure on the extractor to design a clean protocol for it.
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2021-05-13T05:28:39Z slyrus: yeah, I had a hell of a time trying to get indented text with the pretty printer. I could never get it to not add an extra indented line at the end of my output. Unclear if that was my operator error or a bug in the pretty printer.
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2021-05-13T05:36:13Z lukego: fiddlerwoaroof: first demo of pinned CLIM images! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTO4fwba4i0
2021-05-13T05:36:13Z beach: jnewton: Did you ever finish the Baker SUBTYPEP code?
2021-05-13T05:37:02Z lukego: I'm writing a command to do the pinning, but all it actually does is copy-paste the image to the end of a buffer. you can also do that manually. (but if the point is right *on* a CLIM image then keyboard events get screwed up at the moment, workaround is to click somewhere else to escape)
2021-05-13T05:38:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: lukego:  gool
2021-05-13T05:38:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: cool, that is
2021-05-13T05:38:30Z lukego: ganks!
2021-05-13T05:38:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've also noticed that there seems to be some issue with ACCEPT
2021-05-13T05:39:02Z lukego: I'm noticing now that ACCEPT seems to be laggy, about one second to get a result, and I hear my laptop fan
2021-05-13T05:39:15Z lukego: same thing or somehing else?
2021-05-13T05:39:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: Sometimes something like (+ (accept 'integer) (accept 'integer)) will use the first click twice and never prompt for a second one
2021-05-13T05:39:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: I haven't noticed the lag issue
2021-05-13T05:40:07Z lukego: maybe it's related to having 1519 presentations in each image. but it's no sweat with mouseover tooltips so Emacs seems to handle the "find where the pointer is" problem fine
2021-05-13T05:40:42Z lukego: hm that problem sounds odd indeed
2021-05-13T05:41:18Z lukego: maybe both click and release events are being used. I don't have the event handling right. I really don't like having a [t] default handler that's also screwing up keyboard input etc. need a better solution.
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2021-05-13T05:42:45Z lukego: I wanted to just bind a command on mouse-1 but didn't figure out how to do that since Emacs seems to insist on putting the "area id" into the event, e.g. [:72 mouse-1] if you click on presentation number 72, and I don't want to have thousands of separate key bindings for every area that might be clicked
2021-05-13T05:43:20Z lukego: but I haven't used Emacs images before and might be missing something. I tried asking #emacs but got snarky "this is not how you are supposed to use emacs" answers and gave up there.
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2021-05-13T05:45:00Z Nilby: There's a long history of "this is not how you are supposed to use emacs" being proved wrong.
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2021-05-13T05:52:09Z lukego: The answer to most of my questions on internet forums is "you are not supposed to do that" so I am used to it :) but exhausted with the process of trying to negotiate and establish enough credibility to have questions taken at "yes this is exactly what I want to do" face value.
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2021-05-13T05:56:14Z jackdaniel: fiddlerwoaroof: it is hard to improve it as it is, managing multiple libraries would be even harder. also you may simply load the system clim and you basically have a headless clim (i.e only backend-independent abstractions)
2021-05-13T05:58:06Z beach: jackdaniel: Still, if someone wants to extract some stuff and create a good protocol for it, I think that should be encouraged.
2021-05-13T05:58:14Z jackdaniel: (and for even lower level primitives without presentation stuff, depend on clim-basic)
2021-05-13T05:58:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: McClim has stuff like multiprocessing abstractions, right?
2021-05-13T05:59:06Z jackdaniel: beach: if they want to - sure. that said this strangely resembles: I want a CL standard but without deprecated features (i.e CL without remove-if-not)
2021-05-13T05:59:45Z jackdaniel: fiddlerwoaroof: yes, afaik the original bordeaux threads code was based on it. that said, the history made a leap and now these abstractions are implemented in terms of bordeaux threads
2021-05-13T05:59:50Z beach: jackdaniel: Oh?  I guess I didn't see that.
2021-05-13T05:59:52Z jackdaniel: s/based/inspired/
2021-05-13T06:00:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: It seems to me that at least some of this maintenance burden could be reduced by extracting stuff that really isn't directly GUI-related
2021-05-13T06:00:17Z jackdaniel: beach: you didn't see people asking for modernizing CL standard to remove "unnecessary" features?
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2021-05-13T06:00:47Z beach: jackdaniel: Sure, but I didn't see any analogous desire for CLIM/McCLIM.
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2021-05-13T06:01:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: The stream stuff might be more central to how CLIM works, though
2021-05-13T06:01:33Z jackdaniel: isn't "let's take CLIM extended streams and make them a standalone library" something in this spirit?
2021-05-13T06:02:04Z beach: I guess I don't see it that way, but I get your point.
2021-05-13T06:02:08Z jackdaniel: (like - treat everything else as an "unnecessary" feature)
2021-05-13T06:02:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm not saying don't export the symbols from the CLIM package
2021-05-13T06:02:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, I'm not suggesting that the "standard" here change
2021-05-13T06:03:56Z Nilby: BTW, here a thing to indent code to a string with the pretty printer: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2439#2439  Of course it assumes you want/like/have tweaked the way the pretty printer indents.
2021-05-13T06:04:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: And, as it is, gray streams are a bit low-level to be easy to use
2021-05-13T06:04:06Z jackdaniel: as I said, I'm all for people hacking however they want with the code; until I'm made to maintain two separate libraries instead of one ;)
2021-05-13T06:04:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: This is a strategy to make someone else maintain part of the code ;)
2021-05-13T06:06:25Z jackdaniel: I'll better go carry on with my day before I'll be dubbed as a "this is not how you are supposed to hack things"-saying person :)
2021-05-13T06:06:49Z jackdaniel: see you later (~12cet) \o
2021-05-13T06:06:59Z beach: Take care.
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2021-05-13T06:45:19Z lukego: Nilby: Thanks for sharing. doesn't apply in my situation because I'm recursively calling functions that print arbitrary text to an output stream and I want to indent some of the inner calls. (It's not code so I can't READ and PRINT it.) I could do this at the string level - capture recursive call output to string, replace newlines with indented versions, output again - but that sounds a bit kludgy.
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2021-05-13T06:49:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: Haskell has a cool pretty-printer I've used from time to time
2021-05-13T06:50:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's built around combinators like "put this text next/above/below to that"
2021-05-13T06:50:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: But it has the typical "make arbitrary strings valid programs" characteristic of operator-heavy Haskell libraries
2021-05-13T06:52:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, I guess that's been fixed
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2021-05-13T07:03:01Z lukego: Hey CLIM is pretty great :). I'm more confident that I can use it to do a bunch of other related tasks now e.g. creating circuit board descriptions that can be translated from output records into Gerber manufacturing data, and defining the "land" patterns for ICs showing the exact size/shape/position of pads for soldering things onto.
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2021-05-13T07:03:51Z lukego: The fact that CLIM APIs are high-level enough that the source code can act as a nice abstract description, and output records capture enough transformations to easily do things like detect overlapping bounding boxes, and that output records are also abstract enough to translate into other formats like SVG/Gerber, really adds up to an awesome framework
2021-05-13T07:04:42Z phoe: I am now tempted to ask someone for an Online Lisp Meeting showing the basics of creating a CLIM application from scratch
2021-05-13T07:04:45Z Nilby: CLIM was used to design later lisp machines too :)
2021-05-13T07:04:53Z lukego: especially so since the output records can contain arbitrarily much metadata in the form of presentations e.g. that I can use to partition the final designs into different layers for the PCB and so on
2021-05-13T07:04:56Z phoe: I'd totally watch this!
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2021-05-13T07:05:14Z beach: I obviously knew that CLIM is great, since I started working on McCLIM more than 20 years ago, but it is good that this positive information is coming from someone other than me from time to time. :)
2021-05-13T07:05:49Z beach: Maybe such information could convert some GTK/FFI users.
2021-05-13T07:06:31Z beach: phoe: That's a great idea!
2021-05-13T07:09:51Z lukego: beach: I guess that CLIM has always presented itself as an all-or-nothing proposition to me. I'm much happier to see it as a collection of protocols for rich geometric drawing.
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2021-05-13T07:10:52Z lukego: and really better than e.g. SVG which puts too much smarts into the renderer -- if I'd be generating SVG directly, using transformations etc that go straight into the output, then I wouldn't know things like the bounding boxes of my output and that would be a bit blinding.
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2021-05-13T07:11:16Z lukego: So yeah I am glad to finally be seeing CLIM as a practical tool rather than a dmo
2021-05-13T07:11:17Z lukego: demo
2021-05-13T07:11:41Z phoe: beach: who should I ask for such a presentation?
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2021-05-13T07:26:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: The PDF backend also works ok
2021-05-13T07:26:38Z fiddlerwoaroof "ok" is too weak here
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2021-05-13T07:32:50Z flip214: scymtym: with sbcl HEAD clim.flamegraph doesn't hang.
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2021-05-13T07:35:33Z flip214: but I get lots of WARNING: Dropping #S(EVENT :KIND ENTER/UNBLOCK :NAME RELEASE-MUTEX :TIME 1620891298144560 :VALUES GRAB-MUTEX) event since there is no corresponding enter event on the stack.
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2021-05-13T08:28:29Z flip214: scymtym: https://paste.debian.net/hidden/c7cae299/
2021-05-13T08:32:03Z flip214: when zooming too much
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2021-05-13T09:20:59Z flip214: scymtym: runnning hunchentoot I tried (clim.flamegraph.examples.recording:with-recording () (sleep 10)) and using external tools to provide traffic; but there's no recorded run visible.
2021-05-13T09:21:38Z flip214: If I use (w-r () (dotimes (i 500) (...))) I can see and select all threads in the flamegraph; what's wrong in the HT case?
2021-05-13T09:29:47Z splittist: I can search (: https://snipboard.io/xXQcdW.jpg
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2021-05-13T12:29:09Z nij: Hello! Anyone knows any good example to use sbcl's local-socket class? It doesn't say much in its manual.. http://www.lichteblau.com/sbcl/doc/manual/sbcl/Local-_0028Unix_0029-Domain-Sockets.html
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2021-05-13T12:29:51Z nij: In particular, I'd like to let my lisp repl and my terminal talk to each other through a unix domain socket.
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2021-05-13T12:36:09Z jackdaniel: nij: examples that use the local socket are: swank server and clx
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2021-05-13T12:37:11Z nij: jackdaniel: I'm actually looking at slynk server and trying to extend. Does swank server talk through local socket already?!
2021-05-13T12:37:19Z nij: I will also check clx out. THanks!
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2021-05-13T13:03:29Z jdz: nij: Also, the document you linked seems to be for SBCL 0.9.8.6.  Why?  There's SBCL documentation on sbcl.org (http://sbcl.org/manual/index.html), and, depending on how and where you've installed SBCL, it could also be available locally (like /usr/local/share/doc/sbcl/sbcl.html).
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2021-05-13T13:14:32Z CL-ASHOK: Is there a way to 'call' a function from a .lisp file without having to type and run (function-name ...)
2021-05-13T13:14:59Z CL-ASHOK: For example, I can C-M-x or C-x C-e on a (defun ...) but that just evaluates the defun - I want to be able to quickly run the function without having to type it out
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2021-05-13T13:16:43Z jdz: CL-ASHOK: If you want to do it from Emacs (similar to C-M-x), then you just define an interactive function in Emacs that does what you want.  Try C-h k C-M-x.
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2021-05-13T13:20:31Z CL-ASHOK: jdz: Thanks. Would be for a specific function that I have defined? Or can I make it work on all functions (basically everytime I have my cursor in a defun form, I want to be able call the function being defined there?)
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2021-05-13T13:25:24Z jackdaniel: fiddlerwoaroof: regarding morning: I want to make available parts of mcclim as separate libraries, but I think that extracting extended streams into one library is way too small (and coordination burden will outweight benefit of such separation)
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2021-05-13T13:26:12Z jackdaniel: what I want to do is to provide silica (that is the windowing) as a library so mcclim backends can be used to write separate toolkits
2021-05-13T13:26:23Z jackdaniel: (i.e not concerned about this particualr way of doing things)
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2021-05-13T13:56:35Z Josh_2: Afternoon
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2021-05-13T14:03:59Z pjb: nij: what's wrong with ptys?
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2021-05-13T16:13:11Z nij: pjb: ptys? What did you mean?
2021-05-13T16:13:39Z nij: jdz: Oh I gave that page cuz it happens to be very similar if not the same as in a newer version: http://sbcl.org/manual/index.html
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2021-05-13T16:30:09Z pjb: nij: the interface between programs and terminals is implemented using pairs of pty/tty devices.  Not using sockets.
2021-05-13T16:31:04Z nij: Over network, or? I don't know much about it..
2021-05-13T16:31:06Z pjb: nij: otherwise, I have https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/tree/master/common-lisp/telnet
2021-05-13T16:31:15Z pjb: nij: batteries not included.
2021-05-13T16:31:33Z pjb: nij: but nowadays, over network means ssh.
2021-05-13T16:31:42Z nij: I want to not use localhost. Does pty/tty still make sense?
2021-05-13T16:32:02Z pjb: So again, unless you use ssh -T, it means pty/tty.
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2021-05-13T16:32:40Z nij: I just had the impression that using a UNIX domain socket is more secure than communicating over localnet.
2021-05-13T16:32:41Z pjb: nij: yes ^
2021-05-13T16:32:48Z nij: localhost, sorry
2021-05-13T16:33:20Z pjb: yes. But pty/tty is same secure.
2021-05-13T16:33:53Z pjb: I may have missed it, but I don't know what you want to do anyways…
2021-05-13T16:34:46Z pjb: You have people who are already root, to be able to use tcpdump on lo0 on your workstation and you'd want to protect against them???  They can patch the kernel and see whatever they want!
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2021-05-13T16:35:18Z nij: If the root opens a lisp repl, and runs (create-server ..) in it, then iirc anyone on the localhost can link to that repl. This effectively owns the root.
2021-05-13T16:35:27Z pjb: nij: perhaps what you want is to implement TLS/SSL in swank.
2021-05-13T16:35:56Z pjb: nij: or at least add a login mechanism to swank.
2021-05-13T16:36:11Z nij: (I have to admit I'm also pretty new in networking, so I might be talking silly. But I'm willing to learn.)
2021-05-13T16:36:47Z nij: Well, if we use a unix socket, then it would solve my concern, right?
2021-05-13T16:37:05Z pjb: nij: the most useful would be to add TLS/SSL to the swank/slime protocol.
2021-05-13T16:37:22Z nij: The root just have to create a server over a unix socket, whose property the root can configure.
2021-05-13T16:37:29Z pjb: So we could do remote without having to use ssh.
2021-05-13T16:37:49Z pjb: There's no good reason to run CL under root.
2021-05-13T16:38:03Z nij: I believe CL should be run by anyone.
2021-05-13T16:38:12Z nij: And I have the need.. so.. anyway.
2021-05-13T16:38:30Z nij: Hmm.. implementing SSL makes sense to me.
2021-05-13T16:39:05Z pjb: TLS/SSL TLS 1.3 is what we aim for actually
2021-05-13T16:39:15Z pjb: https://kinsta.com/knowledgebase/tls-vs-ssl/
2021-05-13T16:39:24Z nij: Who are we? You and I? Are there any present discussions on this already?!
2021-05-13T16:39:35Z pjb: Yes. Check the logs!
2021-05-13T16:40:05Z nij: Great! So I might not even have to work on it? Anyway I will take a look. It'd be nice if someone could summarize.
2021-05-13T16:41:17Z nij: pjb: But doesn't that mean the goal isn't really to make one for SWANK?
2021-05-13T16:41:28Z nij: In fact, we should just work on socket for cl in general, for each implementation.
2021-05-13T16:41:56Z nij: E.g. sbcl's socket doesn't support tls/ssl iirc.. at least i didn't see it in its manual.
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2021-05-13T16:56:16Z pjb: nij: check again the logs!  If you want it, you better start to work on it!
2021-05-13T16:56:29Z nij: I think so. Am checking. Pretty excited.
2021-05-13T16:56:32Z pjb: The ask for tls in swank/slime is as old as swank/slime.
2021-05-13T16:57:33Z loskutak: Hi, what should I do to the foo string, to make it comparable with :foo? I have code like (case "foo" (:foo "good") (:bar "baz"))
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2021-05-13T16:59:00Z loskutak: I have tried (intern "foo") but that does not work
2021-05-13T16:59:59Z pjb: (case (intern "foo" "KEYWORD") (:|foo| "good") (:|bar| "baz")) #| --> "good" |#
2021-05-13T17:01:07Z pjb: loskutak: but really, (cdr (assoc "foo" '(("foo" . "good") ("bar" . "baz")) :test (function string=))) #| --> "good" |#
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2021-05-13T17:03:34Z loskutak: and if I had 'foo, 'bar instead of :foo, :bar? I would like to have nice interface with either 'foo or :foo, but I need to supply string "foo" outside the function with the (case ...)
2021-05-13T17:03:37Z jdz: loskutak: You can also use FIND-SYMBOL instead of INTERN (and remember to use the right case for the symbol name).
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2021-05-13T17:04:04Z jdz: loskutak: Why do you insist on using CASE?
2021-05-13T17:04:48Z jdz: loskutak: (string-equal "foo" 'foo)
2021-05-13T17:05:01Z loskutak: jdz: that probably doesn't matter, but the code is more complicated than just returning strings
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2021-05-13T17:06:17Z loskutak: oh, so I could convert that into a cond with string-equals. I am ok with that
2021-05-13T17:06:32Z pjb: loskutak: exactly.
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2021-05-13T17:08:04Z loskutak: other option would be to prepend : or ' to the "foo" string and read that. Is there no other option to convert a string to 'foo or :foo (without the |bars|)
2021-05-13T17:09:08Z jdz: loskutak: Try (find-symbol "FOO") or (find-symbol "FOO" "KEYWORD").
2021-05-13T17:09:16Z nij: Eww sounds like implementing TLS for CL is pretty scary. How does that relate to DLL hell?
2021-05-13T17:10:08Z jdz: loskutak: And to get "FOO" from "foo" you use STRING-UPCASE.
2021-05-13T17:10:45Z loskutak: jdz: oh, I was stuck at getting |foo| - didn't realize the upcase is important. Thanks for help!
2021-05-13T17:11:25Z jdz: loskutak: You should know what you're doing.  It's perfectly possible to have lower-case or mixed-case symbols.  Even symbols with spaces in them.
2021-05-13T17:13:08Z nij: Seems like cl-tls is the best we have now. i will look into that repo.
2021-05-13T17:14:55Z flip214: Is there a standard function to convert a bit-array into an integer, or the other way around?
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2021-05-13T17:25:31Z nij: The answer given here suggests no: https://www.lispforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=1205
2021-05-13T17:34:16Z moon-child: (read-from-string (format nil "#b~a" (map 'string #'digit-char your-vector)))
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2021-05-13T17:43:01Z nij: pjb: Besides portability, what do you think about this? https://github.com/massung/tls
2021-05-13T17:44:33Z jdz: flip214: (reduce (lambda (a b) (logior (ash b 1) a)) bit-vector :from-end t)
2021-05-13T17:47:31Z nij: pjb: It seems pretty much like what I want. But again, I'm new to networking (and computers in general), so I might have missed something.
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2021-05-13T17:56:02Z nij: Hmm.. it uses libssl.so.1.1. I'm not sure which protocol this uses.
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2021-05-13T18:05:49Z Xach: nij: this may be an interesting exercise in learning but you do not have to care about it and it will not help you in any short-term goal.
2021-05-13T18:07:36Z nij: Xach: Thanks, I'm aware that this is something that's much harder comparing to my ability/experience. I will treat that as a learning experience. No hurry indeed.
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2021-05-13T18:07:59Z nij: "you do not have to care about it" - why so?
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2021-05-13T18:08:48Z Xach: nij: your motivating example is flawed.
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2021-05-13T18:09:10Z nij: On the other hand (and again I might be naive), it doesn't seem too far to get tls working in CL. It's not native, but if that repo works.. it works, at least for sbcl.
2021-05-13T18:09:47Z nij: It's ~360 lines so I don't expect it to be terribly hard for other implementations either.
2021-05-13T18:09:50Z Xach: it is not too hard to get it working on one implementation on one operating system distribution. it is much harder to make it work across many implementations and operating system distributions.
2021-05-13T18:12:20Z nij: I see. That's the problem.
2021-05-13T18:12:50Z nij: I have no incentive to work for portability either..
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2021-05-13T19:08:28Z nature: How bad of an idea is it to want to do some serious web dev with lisp? :)
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2021-05-13T19:18:37Z jackdaniel: it is not bad (nor good); you'll have some fun when you'll learn that you can redefine functions in a fly
2021-05-13T19:18:54Z jackdaniel: on the fly*
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2021-05-13T19:21:58Z Josh_2: Why would it be a bad idea?
2021-05-13T19:23:06Z jackdaniel: common lisp ecosystem is smaller; alas community support and documentation resources (compared to "popular" web dev frameworks in other languages)
2021-05-13T19:23:12Z moon-child: Josh_2: supposing the mafia come after you if you do serious webdev with lisp
2021-05-13T19:24:57Z frgo: Actually I am currently also evaluating alternatives for web app development. I would love to find someting like elixir phoenix liveview in Lisp. Is there sth like this out there and I am just too dumb to find it?
2021-05-13T19:25:22Z jackdaniel: I know what the phoenix is
2021-05-13T19:25:30Z jackdaniel: it is an immortal bird who raises from ashes
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2021-05-13T19:26:07Z nature: haha yes, it may come as a weird question because I am learning common lisp and liking it a lot so far, but after having (been forced to) worked professionally with rails for years, I swore to myself to never do web with anything else than Go
2021-05-13T19:26:20Z Josh_2: eew
2021-05-13T19:26:27Z Josh_2: why would you wanna do webdev in anything other than CL
2021-05-13T19:26:28Z frgo: jackdaniel: https://hexdocs.pm/phoenix_live_view/Phoenix.LiveView.html
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2021-05-13T19:27:23Z nature: Like you can't believe how shameful I feel when I see those app struggling to server 2 req/s running with a full cpu core at its disposal....
2021-05-13T19:28:01Z jackdaniel: I believe that you can do better even with rails :)
2021-05-13T19:28:22Z Josh_2: yikes
2021-05-13T19:28:49Z frgo: https://youtu.be/U_Pe8Ru06fM - if anyone is curious on what LiveView is.
2021-05-13T19:29:34Z nature: jackdaniel: spent weeks investiguating those perf issue, conclusion => template rendering is slow af...
2021-05-13T19:30:07Z Josh_2: frgo: looks horrible
2021-05-13T19:30:16Z Josh_2: Pretty sure you can do the same sort of horror with something like Vue.js
2021-05-13T19:30:26Z jackdaniel: nature: "web" is a slow af
2021-05-13T19:30:27Z frgo: ??? No - bu, yeah - opinions.
2021-05-13T19:30:32Z Josh_2: nature: its not slow in CL
2021-05-13T19:31:00Z Josh_2: You can generate, html, js and css quite efficiently using CL
2021-05-13T19:31:22Z nature: So yes, serving hello world surely goes well with rails, but when you start to have complex templates and using the full MVC crap it kills your cpu
2021-05-13T19:31:23Z jackdaniel: I don't think that generating is the bottleneck
2021-05-13T19:31:29Z nature: Josh_2: really? :D
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2021-05-13T19:31:56Z Josh_2: nature: spinneret, parenscript and lass
2021-05-13T19:31:58Z nature: jackdaniel: it's cpu bound for sure
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2021-05-13T19:33:19Z nature: Go would be more of a 1x, 2x or 10x gain? Just to get a grasp of what to expect?
2021-05-13T19:34:57Z Josh_2: https://github.com/fukamachi/woo
2021-05-13T19:35:12Z Josh_2: I'm a proud hunchentoot user :P
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2021-05-13T19:38:43Z nature: Thanks, yeah I'll probably try hunchentoot then, I am more scared of those 2 req/s eating 100% cpu than getting 30k req/s vs 9999k req/s
2021-05-13T19:38:46Z nature: I have PTSD
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2021-05-13T19:39:07Z Josh_2: I took a stab at writing my own basic HTTP server, seems to me its quite hard to make them fast
2021-05-13T19:39:26Z nature: But it can make sense that lisp is good at templating :D
2021-05-13T19:40:26Z Josh_2: well when you use something like spinneret, you don't write any HTML, you write normal CL and its converted into html
2021-05-13T19:40:42Z Josh_2: this means you have the full functionality of CL to generate HTML
2021-05-13T19:41:59Z Josh_2: or CSS, or JS
2021-05-13T19:42:13Z Josh_2: its SSR on anabolic steroids
2021-05-13T19:42:15Z nature: Isn't it weird to "think lisp" to write html?
2021-05-13T19:42:23Z Josh_2: no
2021-05-13T19:42:44Z nature: Thanks for all the pointers btw :)
2021-05-13T19:44:47Z Josh_2: nature: here is an example project where I heavily lean on CLOS to generate HTML and CSS https://github.com/K1D77A/cl-bloggy/tree/master/src
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2021-05-13T19:55:02Z nature: Josh_2: Really neat! It's pretty elegant
2021-05-13T19:55:24Z Josh_2: I've learned to write more comments and docstrings since then xD
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2021-05-13T19:56:20Z nature: What's your workflow to add new blog post to your running server?
2021-05-13T19:56:47Z Josh_2: Well it would be to connect to a running Slynk server and just update the source in the image
2021-05-13T19:57:25Z Josh_2: but it wouldn't be hard to create a html form that adds things automatically
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2021-05-13T19:58:35Z nature: Nice
2021-05-13T19:59:16Z nature: I'll give lisp a try for my web project
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2021-05-13T20:10:02Z scymtym: flip214: if you do deterministic profiling, you must specify the functions or packages to instrument. for example, (clim.flamegraph.examples.recording:with-recording (:specifications '("ALEXANDRIA.0.DEV")) (sleep 10)) will trace all alexandria functions in all threads for 10 seconds
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2021-05-13T20:11:47Z frgo: Josh_2: Actually, well - thanks for the pointers. We *do* have something, well, vaguely similar in Lisp.
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2021-05-13T20:15:13Z scymtym: flip214: and in WITH-RECORDING change the SAMPLE-RATE to 1 if you don't want to skip any calls
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2021-05-13T20:44:13Z mister_m: hi - if I have a function A that returns multiple things through hte use of ``(values 1 2)'', and another function B that takes two arguments, is there a shortcut way to call function B with the results of A without using a ``multiple-value-bind'' to bind the results of A and then call B?
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2021-05-13T20:47:40Z markasoftware: Multiple-value-call will help. Multiple-value-compose from Alexandria will make it even better.
2021-05-13T20:48:40Z markasoftware: mister_m
2021-05-13T20:50:02Z mister_m: nice - thanks markasoftware
2021-05-13T20:50:38Z mister_m: oh duh I shoulda spotted the SEE ALSO note in the hyperspec entry for bind
2021-05-13T20:51:19Z mister_m: multiple-value-list also is nice to have
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2021-05-13T22:12:25Z kagevf: CL-ASHOK: maybe C-c C-y ... it will call the current defun in the repl and allow you to enter any parameters ...
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2021-05-13T23:54:23Z slyrus: it's been a long time since I've looked under these rocks... is there anything like https://rstudio.github.io/reticulate/ for lisp? I think xof's stuff goes the other way and allows for SLIME to talk to R. I want R to talk to a lisp -- possibly via SWANK. Anything like that out there?
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2021-05-14T02:33:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: slyrus: Google found this for me https://common-lisp.net/project/rcl/
2021-05-14T02:33:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, that's backwards, I guess
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2021-05-14T02:39:44Z slyrus: fiddlerwoaroof, yep
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2021-05-14T03:04:59Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-05-14T03:07:45Z slyrus: morning beach!
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2021-05-14T03:40:37Z ebrasca: Morning beach!
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2021-05-14T04:50:28Z nij: Hello, is there a de facto library that helps logging any form call?
2021-05-14T04:51:06Z nij: Something like (with-log (lambda () (do-this) (do-that)) #P"/path/to/log/file" "name")?
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2021-05-14T05:19:55Z pjb: nij: as soon you as will complete: (defmacro with-log … …)
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2021-05-14T05:21:40Z nij-: Sure, for what I need now, a small macro does the job.
2021-05-14T05:21:58Z nij-: But I'm wondering if there's a full library that handles similar issues.
2021-05-14T05:23:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't really understand what you want, but there's a bunch of logging libraries for CL
2021-05-14T05:24:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://sabracrolleton.github.io/logging-comparison.html
2021-05-14T05:24:52Z nij-: Oh, the term is "logging libraries" :-O Thanks! Lemme look into them.
2021-05-14T05:25:02Z nij-: Fantastic.
2021-05-14T05:25:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've just been using the library :printv these days
2021-05-14T05:25:31Z nij-: I wrote my own which is silly, and I'm sure it only covers <1% of what they do.
2021-05-14T05:25:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, I don't do very much "real" logging
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2021-05-14T05:34:10Z nij-: It's fine. The article is exactly what I need. Thanks so much
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2021-05-14T06:00:01Z beach: jnewton: Did you see my question from the other day?
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2021-05-14T06:08:37Z flip214: jdz: uh, that sounds very slow for a few hundred bits.
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2021-05-14T06:32:47Z flip214: scymtym: thanks a lot! will try.
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2021-05-14T06:36:41Z jdz: flip214: If you want to go faster you'll have to use implementation internals.
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2021-05-14T06:37:49Z flip214: jdz: ack, thanks.
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2021-05-14T06:38:19Z jdz: flip214: Of course it is possible to make it a bit faster portably by working with fixnum-siszed chunks, and only creating a bignum at the end, but that would not fit in a single line on IRC.
2021-05-14T06:38:37Z flip214: scymtym: with :specifications I don't get a result (in the left "Runs" pane) either. hmmm.
2021-05-14T06:38:59Z jdz: The biggest problem is working with bits.  I'm pretty sure implementation works with at least octet-sized chunks.
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2021-05-14T06:39:45Z jdz: flip214: Why do you have bit-vectors in the first place?
2021-05-14T06:40:25Z no-defun-allowed: What are we doing with bits?
2021-05-14T06:42:43Z flip214: jdz: I'm looking at cl-qrencode, trying to speed it up. I'm currently converting a list of bits to a bit-vector, reducing garbage by ~33% so far. Now I got to the point where arithmetic (ECC) is being done on that data...
2021-05-14T06:43:07Z flip214: jdz: would you be interested to help? Then I'll just push my git-stash onto github for you to take a look at.
2021-05-14T06:43:26Z jdz: flip214: Why do you need bit-vectors?  Just use numbers.  Bit-twiddling in Common Lisp is so much more enjoyable than in C...
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2021-05-14T06:47:35Z flip214: jdz: all the input data is collected; but depending on the mode, each input element provides 5 to 13 bits.
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2021-05-14T06:50:17Z jdz: I'm looking at bstream.lisp file, and indeed some implementation choices are questionable.
2021-05-14T06:50:26Z flip214: jdz: github.com:phmarek/cl-qrencode.git, branch bit-stream-perf - the last commit shows the beginning.
2021-05-14T06:50:52Z flip214: the other commits before that are not well-formatted and described, but work fine.
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2021-05-14T06:52:12Z jdz: On the first look I'd suggest using arrays of (unsigned-byte 5) and (unsigned-byte 13).
2021-05-14T06:54:48Z flip214: jdz: well, there are 4 different input modes... so different types become unwieldy, I believe
2021-05-14T06:55:20Z flip214: but yeah, building a bigint out of all the input data was another idea I got during the bit-array conversion, too
2021-05-14T06:56:31Z jdz: If all the bits need to be packed together, then just use a bignum, yes.
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2021-05-14T06:58:18Z flip214: well, I was wary of needing to shift a bignum a few hundred times (for each input item) - or needing to know _where_ each input bit needs to land, beforehand
2021-05-14T06:59:09Z jdz: While building the bignum, you can work with fixnum-sized chunks.
2021-05-14T06:59:37Z flip214: and complexity goes up again...
2021-05-14T07:00:00Z jdz: C'mon, that's 3 or so more lines.
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2021-05-14T07:02:38Z splittist: What's the usecase for creating vast numbers of QR codes such that the time to produce them is a bottleneck?
2021-05-14T07:02:53Z jdz: That question entered my mind as well.
2021-05-14T07:03:27Z jdz: But then I looked at the code, and it stores bits in lists, and appends at the end all the time.
2021-05-14T07:04:02Z jdz: https://github.com/jnjcc/cl-qrencode/blob/master/qrencode/bstream.lisp
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2021-05-14T07:06:56Z splittist: jdz: perhaps it's just bored, waiting for the user to move their mouse or the printer to cycle in the next sheet of paper (:
2021-05-14T07:07:39Z jdz: Could be.  We neglect the needs of computer programs all too often.
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2021-05-14T07:10:10Z flip214: splittist: performance shootout ;)
2021-05-14T07:11:07Z no-defun-allowed: They ask "what is the program performance" but they never ask "how is the program performance" :(((
2021-05-14T07:14:06Z jdz: flip214: Have you measured how "expensive" bignum shifting is?
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2021-05-14T07:18:44Z flip214: jdz: no, not yet.
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2021-05-14T07:54:08Z scymtym: flip214: i don't understand how WITH-RECORDING could finish without adding at least an empty run. can you try tracing (i mean CL:TRACE in this case) CLIM.FLAMEGRAPH.APPLICATION::ADD-RUN?
2021-05-14T07:57:51Z phoe: 69
2021-05-14T07:57:58Z phoe: oops, forgot a slash
2021-05-14T07:59:37Z moon-child: 6/9?
2021-05-14T08:01:42Z flip214: scymtym: "#<SOURCE {1007CF5003}> setting up", then hung again...
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2021-05-14T08:02:56Z phoe: moon-child: /69
2021-05-14T08:03:02Z phoe: switching to the 69th irssi window
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2021-05-14T08:10:52Z flip214: scymtym: some load in sb-sprof:w-p works; with flamegraph I get lots of "Dropping ... event since there is no corresponding enter event on the stack." and then a hang
2021-05-14T08:10:56Z flip214: phoe: too many windows
2021-05-14T08:11:36Z jdz: flip214: Converting a bit-vector using fixnum-sized chunks is only 6.75 times faster than the simple one-liner with REDUCE (0.63s vs. 4.253s for a bit vector of length 300 repeated 500000 times).
2021-05-14T08:12:35Z lukego: Crazy thought. Maybe I could actually use CLIM layout features like stream positions and tabular layout and graph layout etc for circuit board design. I mean, I will generate the Gerber manufacturing data from the CLIM output records anyway, so it doesn't matter how I position the components, and if what I need is an NxM grid of (say) capacitors then why not call a standard CLIM routine to produce that? Seems nuts though
2021-05-14T08:12:35Z lukego: :)
2021-05-14T08:12:46Z jdz: flip214: Pretty sure you do not need to generate 500000 qr-codes per second.
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2021-05-14T08:14:29Z scymtym: flip214: can you put together a complete recipe for reproduction? i can install everything in a container to get the same versions if necessary
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2021-05-14T08:29:18Z jdz: flip214: Funny, in CCL the fixnum chunked version is around 10 times slower than the simple REDUCE.
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2021-05-14T08:34:59Z jdz: flip214: Here's the code: https://gist.github.com/jdz/3831dc3b5af5cb76b18b14384216913c
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2021-05-14T08:44:59Z jnewton: morning everyone,   not sure if my chat is working
2021-05-14T08:45:26Z frgo: Morning. jnewton: it is.
2021-05-14T08:46:10Z beach: jnewton: I asked you a question the other day: Did y'all ever finish your Baker-style SUBTYPEP?
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2021-05-14T08:47:05Z beach: jnewton: And good morning to you.
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2021-05-14T08:48:17Z phoe: jnewton: it is working, yes
2021-05-14T08:48:44Z jnewton: voila
2021-05-14T08:49:32Z jnewton: phoe: which reader do you use for IRC?   I find the emacs ERC reader pretty difficult to get my head around.
2021-05-14T08:50:04Z phoe: jnewton: I have a separate server, and I run irssi there
2021-05-14T08:50:05Z beach: Huh?  It is very simple.
2021-05-14T08:50:19Z phoe: I use tmux to be able to connect and disconnect from it at will, including from multiple machines at the same time
2021-05-14T08:50:33Z beach: jnewton: Plus, you then have your usual abbrevs and your usual spell checker.
2021-05-14T08:50:46Z beach: I understand most IRC clients don't have those.
2021-05-14T08:54:36Z jnewton: abbrevs?  are you reverring to emacs abbrevs, M-/?   I've never used abbrevs in plain text, but I use then pretty often in programming.
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2021-05-14T08:57:43Z beach: Not M-/ no.
2021-05-14T08:58:05Z beach: I am always surprised how few people seem to use abbrevs.
2021-05-14T08:58:44Z beach: I am talking M-x abbrev-move<RET>.
2021-05-14T08:59:06Z beach: And you can make ERC-specific abbrevs, which save a lot of typing.
2021-05-14T09:00:12Z beach: Plus, I then don't have to expose silly and hard-to-understand abbreviations on my readers.  And I don't have to show the entire world that I don't master my tools.
2021-05-14T09:00:59Z beach: s/expose/impose/ I guess.
2021-05-14T09:01:15Z jdz: jnewton: For what it's worth, I use circe (another Emacs IRC client).
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2021-05-14T09:03:12Z jnewton: beach: by abbrev do you mean that when you type, emacs replaces what you type with what you meant?
2021-05-14T09:04:19Z jnewton: I tend to turn that feature off in editors that support it, because it too often replaces what I meant but misspelled, with what I didn't mean at all.
2021-05-14T09:04:20Z beach: Yes, like I would type "gme", and it automatically expands to "Good morning everyone!"
2021-05-14T09:04:49Z jnewton: ahh.  well since I can type pretty fast, I can type good morning everyone as fast as I can remember gme.
2021-05-14T09:04:56Z beach: jnewton: Oh, but if you define your own abbrevs, it will replace only those, and you choose ones that you won't mistype.
2021-05-14T09:05:04Z jnewton: but that's probably the limit, i'd say
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2021-05-14T09:05:46Z beach: I don't believe for a second that you can type it as fast once you get used to using your abbrev.  But if you don't want to save time, that's up to you of course.
2021-05-14T09:06:16Z jnewton: how can I open a chat with a particular person in emacs-erc?
2021-05-14T09:06:35Z shka_: hi all
2021-05-14T09:06:55Z beach: I forget.  But I usually start with /msg <nick> ...  and then the other person will create a private window.
2021-05-14T09:07:03Z beach: Hello shka_.
2021-05-14T09:07:18Z phoe: jnewton: it should be enough to type this into the erc buffer: /query phoe
2021-05-14T09:07:27Z phoe: this should create a new buffer containing the private chat
2021-05-14T09:07:30Z beach: Ah, right, thanks.
2021-05-14T09:08:08Z nij-: Hello! I just found serapeum and am delighted by its documentation. I think it's now good time for me to start reading some awesome utils library. It has two benefits. First, I learn from more experienced people. Second, I would know what utils are available so I don't have to invent the (incomplete) wheels by myself. The problem is that I'm not sure what libs I should look into. Alexandria (1) is definitely on my list. How about
2021-05-14T09:08:08Z nij-: serapeum, and other libs.. do you recommend any?
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2021-05-14T09:12:14Z phoe: nij-: I guess that quicklisp usage stats can give you some numbers for most popular libs
2021-05-14T09:14:23Z shka_: nij-: i use just alexandria and serapeum utility libraries
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2021-05-14T09:22:37Z nij-: phoe good idea! I've only found this: http://blog.quicklisp.org/2017/11/october-2017-download-stats.html is there newer or a programmatic version?
2021-05-14T09:23:10Z nij-: shka_ :-O don't you use uiop?
2021-05-14T09:24:13Z phoe: nij-: https://mov.im/?blog/phoe%40movim.eu/6307e977-1855-4167-b2ca-24973d77e733
2021-05-14T09:24:19Z phoe: (ql:quickload :quicklisp-stats)
2021-05-14T09:25:07Z nij-: Fantastic. Thanks!
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2021-05-14T09:27:24Z nij-: Hmm.. serapeum isn't that popular, contradicting to what I thought. What does that mean @_@..
2021-05-14T09:27:37Z nij-: It seems to cover many popular utils libs..
2021-05-14T09:27:48Z jnewton: beach:  you were asking about the version of subtypep we were working on at IRC.  No it was never finished, and the student has graduated.
2021-05-14T09:28:13Z beach: I see.  Do you plan to suggest the topic to a new student maybe?
2021-05-14T09:28:22Z jnewton: beach: I really wish I could have convinced the student to release the code in an unfinished state, but he didn't want to reslease it before it worked.
2021-05-14T09:28:35Z beach: Oh! :(
2021-05-14T09:29:19Z jnewton: beach:  I hadn't planned to suggest it to a new student.  Why?  because I think the first student did all the interesting part of the work, and the only remaining parts are the parts that are not fun, or very difficult.
2021-05-14T09:30:06Z beach: Yes, I understand.  Also, there are indications that Baker's technique can't handle the CONS type well, other than the trivial one.
2021-05-14T09:30:17Z splittist: So another 80% solution gets stuck in academic purgatory...
2021-05-14T09:30:27Z jnewton: beach: In retrospect,  and just from a single data point,  I believe one of the problems with Baker's algorithm is that it is conceptually elegant, but there are corner cases which are VERY difficult.
2021-05-14T09:30:37Z shka_: nij-: ok, sometimes uiop
2021-05-14T09:30:53Z shka_: mostly for FS
2021-05-14T09:31:05Z beach: jnewton: Makes sense.  Anyway, we are probably going with Bike's work on a version that canonicalizes.
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2021-05-14T09:31:55Z jnewton: The student spent the last semester trying to model intervals using a technique using multi-dimentional potentially unbounded bounding boxes.   it made really pretty slides and really pretty lightning talks but couldn't in the end figure out whether such a set was a subtype of T.
2021-05-14T09:32:28Z shka_: nij-: anyway, i think that serapeum is just fine
2021-05-14T09:32:40Z beach: jnewton: Hmm, I see.
2021-05-14T09:32:51Z beach: Baker writes that canonicalization can create exponential blow-up, but I doubth that it will happen in practice.
2021-05-14T09:33:26Z shka_: it is random set of utils, but they are written well enough
2021-05-14T09:33:27Z beach: *doubt
2021-05-14T09:33:30Z jnewton: my experience, with unbounded blow-up is that the blowup happens often in testing.
2021-05-14T09:33:37Z jnewton: How do you intend to test subtypep?
2021-05-14T09:33:53Z beach: I have no idea.  It's Bike's work.
2021-05-14T09:35:07Z splittist: nij: serapeum is great, and a good read. But utils libraries grow out of abstracting from concrete requirements, so it's sometimes hard to understand why something is done in a particular way if you haven't faced particular challenges. Something like cl-ppcre, where the domain is easily understandable, might be more illuminating if you're looking for examples of lispy ways of meeting concrete challenges.
2021-05-14T09:35:32Z jnewton: I dont know who Bike is.
2021-05-14T09:36:03Z beach: I told you in the private message.
2021-05-14T09:37:18Z beach: Bike comes here pretty much every day, UTC-4 I believe.
2021-05-14T09:37:50Z beach: jnewton: We hang out in #sicl as well, for more compiler-related discussions.
2021-05-14T09:38:26Z beach: ... and more generally, for techniques related to implementing Common Lisp.
2021-05-14T09:38:43Z jnewton: beach: ahh, my private message window is hiddent, and nothing in emacs (that I noticed) notified me that I have new information to read in a hidden buffer.
2021-05-14T09:39:02Z beach: There should be a little [..] thing in the mode line.
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2021-05-14T09:39:28Z beach: It would have said [b] for `beach' I guess.
2021-05-14T09:39:55Z jnewton: in which mode line?  the main one?   if the buffer is hidden, then I won't see its mode line.  right?
2021-05-14T09:40:16Z beach: I have mine in every mode line of every window.
2021-05-14T09:41:00Z beach: It reports changes in windows that are hidden.
2021-05-14T09:41:33Z beach: Like right now, mine says [i] (in gray) for "irc.freenode...", so I guess I have a message from the admins.
2021-05-14T09:41:59Z jnewton: mine says [i] with a red/orange i.
2021-05-14T09:42:15Z beach: Same thing but different kind of message.
2021-05-14T09:42:45Z jnewton: when I hover the mouse over the red i, it tells me
2021-05-14T09:43:09Z jnewton: mouse-2: switch to buffer mouse-3: switch to buffer in other window.
2021-05-14T09:43:10Z beach: Ah, never tried that.  Good to know.
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2021-05-14T09:45:31Z splittist: (I use irccloud.com, as, I think, does drmeister; costs money, is web-based, doesn't use abbrevs, but is persistent, usable from any machine, and meets my modest needs.)
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2021-05-14T09:49:43Z loke[m]: Have any of you ever used PAIRLIS?
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2021-05-14T09:49:50Z loke[m]: It seems to have been around forever, but I have never used it.
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2021-05-14T11:23:54Z flip214: scymtym: having a cpu-using body in with-recording seems to work... although I now see %start-time being 0, so I need to zoom 51y into the graph ;(
2021-05-14T11:26:59Z scymtym: flip214: i don't know what "work" means given the different execution and failures modes you have described. are you still trying to do deterministic profiling or are you now looking for a flamegraph based on statistical profiling? i think the incorrect duration happens when no deterministic traces have been recorded. as i said: i can only address issues if you provide a recipe for reproducing them
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2021-05-14T11:30:08Z flip214: scymtym: yeah, understood. But a recipe ain't that easy...
2021-05-14T11:30:22Z flip214: right now it "just worked" and gave me a 5sec trace.
2021-05-14T11:30:40Z flip214: no idea why start time was empty just 10 mins ago...
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2021-05-14T11:32:07Z scymtym: flip214: did you adjust the SAMPLE-RATE in CALL-WITH-RECORDING? otherwise it will skip a certain ratio of calls
2021-05-14T11:32:24Z flip214: :sample-rate 1 as per your tip.
2021-05-14T11:32:46Z flip214: can it be a problem if I run W-R in the REPL thread?
2021-05-14T11:33:41Z scymtym: i didn't see any problems with that
2021-05-14T11:34:26Z scymtym: note that you can record calls that are already in-progress when the recording starts. that's where WARNING: Dropping #S(EVENT …) comes from
2021-05-14T11:34:33Z scymtym: *you can't
2021-05-14T11:34:47Z flip214: https://paste.debian.net/hidden/b1ceff68/ won't help understanding much, I guess
2021-05-14T11:35:52Z scymtym: looks like it should work
2021-05-14T11:36:21Z scymtym: in the failing case, does the recorded run say "0 threads", "0 traces"?
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2021-05-14T11:36:27Z flip214: but that grrrr, now I got 1.6e9 seconds again... and so display breaks.
2021-05-14T11:36:42Z flip214: well, if it hangs, I get _no_ swank communication any more - checked with wireshark.
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2021-05-14T11:38:03Z scymtym: try whether omitting :record-blockers? and :record-io? helps with the hanging
2021-05-14T11:38:34Z scymtym: for the bogus duration, right-click that run and look at the start/end times and the traces
2021-05-14T11:39:22Z flip214: that's what I did - %start-time is 0
2021-05-14T11:40:12Z flip214: looking at the traces next
2021-05-14T11:41:37Z flip214: grrr... got 12.4seconds (correct), but clicking on "Analyze run" made the CPU spin for ~15secs - but no response any more
2021-05-14T11:44:00Z flip214: got one with 1.4sec, one with 51y now... but when I try to inspect the 51y one I get no response.
2021-05-14T11:44:09Z flip214: ah.... heap exhausted!
2021-05-14T11:44:20Z flip214: with a 5GB heap?!??!
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2021-05-14T11:44:34Z scymtym: did it say how many traces it captured?
2021-05-14T11:45:38Z flip214: 1700, and 7
2021-05-14T11:45:55Z flip214: (yeah, 7, I believe - or 17 or something like that)
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2021-05-14T11:47:25Z flip214: ah, got it.
2021-05-14T11:47:54Z flip214: I added to the packages list... but had a type, ":HUNCHENTOOT" instead of "HUNCHENTOOT" - and that seems to give a loop that allocates memory until the heap is exhausted.
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2021-05-14T11:49:17Z scymtym: i can look into that specific problem but generally, i don't understand what you are doing
2021-05-14T11:49:56Z flip214: I don't understand either, I guess ;)
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2021-05-14T11:51:10Z flip214: but now it works fine...
2021-05-14T11:51:37Z flip214: seems the :record-blockers and :record-io breaks my usecase (socket IO via swank??), removing them helps tremendously
2021-05-14T11:51:56Z flip214: and not needing :specifications is good as well, now I can even trace with external load generators
2021-05-14T11:52:05Z flip214: thanks, I'm good so far, I believe
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2021-05-14T12:07:53Z flip214: jdz: QR is ~25% in my macro benchmark, so you've got a chance to increase performance of my usage by 1.33x!   ;)
2021-05-14T12:08:47Z flip214: resp. BYTES->INPUT is about 25%, INPUT->SYMBOL is another 23%
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2021-05-14T12:16:30Z ldbeth: good evening
2021-05-14T12:16:55Z phoe: ravenpack is hiring - https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/nc74o7/
2021-05-14T12:18:06Z jdz: Remote positions this time, good news.
2021-05-14T12:19:10Z flip214: https://ibb.co/NF4Xpzc is the flamegraph for QR-encode
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2021-05-14T12:21:55Z jdz: Apparently I've missed their previous posting about fully-remote position 6 months ago (https://old.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/jiz3pt/remote_common_lisp_developer_vacancy_at_ravenpack/).
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2021-05-14T12:54:53Z agumonkey: hi there
2021-05-14T12:55:04Z phoe: hey hi
2021-05-14T12:55:09Z agumonkey: I'm having a little issue with quicklisp / asdf
2021-05-14T12:55:10Z agumonkey: hi phoe
2021-05-14T12:55:38Z agumonkey: on a machine (linux mint + sbcl) I could load-asd "/.../...asd" then load-system :foo and it fetched dependencies
2021-05-14T12:55:44Z agumonkey: (or so that's what I remember)
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2021-05-14T12:56:34Z agumonkey: but on my remote laptop (arch + sbcl) if I load-asd then load-system `I get Component ASDF/USER::CL-HTML-DIFF not found, required by #<SYSTEM "nyxt">
2021-05-14T12:56:34Z agumonkey:    [Condition of type ASDF/FIND-COMPONENT:MISSING-DEPENDENCY]`
2021-05-14T12:56:34Z agumonkey:  
2021-05-14T12:56:45Z agumonkey: (apologies for the multiline flood)
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2021-05-14T12:56:53Z Xach: agumonkey: quickload would work, but load-system would not.
2021-05-14T12:56:58Z phoe: likely because you do not have cl-html-diff downloaded there via qu--- yes
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2021-05-14T12:57:11Z phoe: try quickloading it instead, quicklisp will try to pull all dependencies first
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2021-05-14T12:57:57Z agumonkey: hmm so asdf doesn't deal with fetching, only loading/setting up when they're already retrieved by quicklisp:quickload ?
2021-05-14T12:58:07Z agumonkey: (newb question in case it's not obvious)
2021-05-14T12:58:10Z agumonkey: hi Xach btw
2021-05-14T13:01:16Z Xach: agumonkey: that's right, asdf loads what is available and signals an error if something is missing. quicklisp handles that error and fetches things to retry.
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2021-05-14T13:02:54Z agumonkey: hi back
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2021-05-14T13:12:55Z agumonkey: I see libfixposix is absent on both mint and arch :)
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2021-05-14T13:31:05Z phoe: build from sources!
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2021-05-14T13:37:16Z royae: hello
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2021-05-14T13:39:24Z phoe: heyyy
2021-05-14T13:40:01Z royae: hey phoe :)
2021-05-14T13:40:17Z royae: I was wondering why Common Lisp does not have a real module system ?
2021-05-14T13:40:31Z royae:  C. Queinnec once report in a paper that D. Moon told him not to use packages as a module system, as it is a reader thing.
2021-05-14T13:40:47Z phoe: by "modules" you mean some sort of immutable blobs of code, or something?
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2021-05-14T13:41:38Z beach: royae: It is often pointless to ask "why" Common Lisp is missing something.  I mean, the answer is that it wasn't put in when the standard was made.
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2021-05-14T13:41:39Z royae: As the modules of racket scheme, or scheme48
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2021-05-14T13:42:08Z beach: royae: So are you asking what the state of mind of the members of the committee was when they didn't include it?
2021-05-14T13:42:23Z royae: beah : exact :)
2021-05-14T13:42:29Z phoe: oh, OK - one issue I see is that it's hard to assign a piece of Lisp code to a module because it's hard to cleanly slice pieces of a Lisp image; there's side effects that can mutate the state of the whole image
2021-05-14T13:42:33Z jackdaniel: there are two rickety and deprecated interfaces for modules: require and provide
2021-05-14T13:43:04Z jackdaniel: but it is so underspecified that you can't really call it a module abstraction
2021-05-14T13:43:10Z phoe: ASDF works around this, but it's still not 100% modular where you can plug things out as easily as you can plug stuff in
2021-05-14T13:43:53Z beach: royae: If I may guess, the reason is that they were not able to figure out a solution that was both semantically sound and that would not harm performance.
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2021-05-14T13:44:49Z beach: royae: For instance, when I wrote my paper on first-class global environments, I read the paper by Queinnec, and decided that the overhead was going to be too great for Common Lisp.
2021-05-14T13:45:15Z beach: royae: Most module systems I have seen require a hash-table lookup for every function call, and that would be totally unacceptable.
2021-05-14T13:45:26Z royae: beach: Ah OK. I undestand.
2021-05-14T13:45:44Z beach: Of course, I now solved that problem, but much later. :)
2021-05-14T13:46:05Z royae: But resolving bindings could be done at compile time though ?
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2021-05-14T13:46:35Z beach: That's what my system does, yes.
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2021-05-14T13:47:30Z royae: beach: Ok ! It will be a huge progress for sharing code :)
2021-05-14T13:48:47Z beach: I doubt that it will be adopted by existing implementations, so I fear that the impact is going to be low.
2021-05-14T13:49:16Z beach: It can't be bolted onto an existing implementation.  The implementation would have to do some major rewrites.
2021-05-14T13:51:50Z beach: Plus, implementations like SBCL that are optimized for performance will not even consider it.  Although there is no overhead for a function call, there is a hash-table lookup for things like (fdefinition <non-constant-name>).
2021-05-14T13:53:56Z beach: royae: And you can't really resolve bindings completely at compile time, given that Common Lisp requires late binding, so you still need an indirection.  I guess existing proposals did that with a hash table lookup and, like I said, it is not acceptable because of performance.
2021-05-14T13:54:32Z royae: Well I think it'a very attractive functionality for SICL. I miss it in CL implementations more often I need performance.
2021-05-14T13:55:24Z beach: The package system works OK for most cases.
2021-05-14T13:56:24Z beach: The main difficulty is with having different versions of the same system loaded simultaneously.
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2021-05-14T14:06:38Z beach: Another possible answer to "why" is that the vendors involved in the standard thought it would cost too much for them to implement it, given their existing CLtL1 implementations.  As I mentioned, it would be a major rewrite of several parts of such an implementation.  Given how programs were written at the time, it is likely that the absence of a module system permeates most of the code,
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2021-05-14T14:08:41Z royae: beach: OK, That is a "good" reason.
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2021-05-14T14:10:14Z royae: Neverless I think the fact that packages are a reader thing make the code less clear.
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2021-05-14T14:12:58Z beach: There is a long tradition in the Lisp world that new features are first implemented as libraries (that may require minor modifications to the implementation), and then tested for a significant amount of time before becoming widely adopted.  CLOS is an example of that.
2021-05-14T14:13:00Z beach: The people in the standards committee would not just dream up some feature that they thought would be useful.  And that is unlike the many relative newbies here in #lisp, who think that is a good way of defining new features.
2021-05-14T14:15:17Z beach: So we can consider first-class global environments as the first step of such a process.  Next will be the incorporation of first-class global environments in a native version of SICL.  Perhaps many years later, it will be agreed that it is a good feature with reasonable performance cost.  Only then would it be adopted more widely.
2021-05-14T14:15:25Z royae: Beach: Yes stability is a huge win :)
2021-05-14T14:17:10Z royae: beach: we will see. I hope so ;)
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2021-05-14T14:18:46Z royae: Thanks for answering. I'm reading scheme48 implementation code but then I will have a look at SICL !
2021-05-14T14:18:48Z ebrasca: I am sure we have normal environments. Why first-class global environments?
2021-05-14T14:19:42Z beach: ebrasca: The typical Common Lisp implementation has exactly one global environment,
2021-05-14T14:19:54Z beach: ebrasca: And that's not enough for reasons of modularity.
2021-05-14T14:20:05Z ebrasca: I did think they did have 3.
2021-05-14T14:20:14Z ebrasca: Compile , eval and runtime.
2021-05-14T14:20:32Z ebrasca: Not sure about the names.
2021-05-14T14:20:38Z beach: The standard says that, but then it also says it they are allowed to be one and the same, and that's what all implementations do.
2021-05-14T14:21:07Z beach: compilation environment, evaluation environment, run-time environment
2021-05-14T14:22:11Z beach: clhs 3.2.1
2021-05-14T14:22:11Z specbot: Compiler Terminology: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_ba.htm
2021-05-14T14:23:29Z beach: "The compilation environment inherits from the evaluation environment, and the compilation environment and evaluation environment might be identical. The evaluation environment inherits from the startup environment, and the startup environment and evaluation environment might be identical."
2021-05-14T14:23:55Z beach: ebrasca: But that's not the point here.  The point here is that more than one run-time environment is needed for modularity.
2021-05-14T14:25:28Z ebrasca: I am not fan of sandboxing.
2021-05-14T14:25:56Z beach: Nobody mentioned sandboxing.
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2021-05-14T14:26:46Z CL-ASHOK: What's the best way to write Lisp documentation? I am thinking detailed documentation on exported functions within a package, with some basic notes how internal functions work?
2021-05-14T14:26:55Z CL-ASHOK: Any other suggestions?
2021-05-14T14:26:57Z ebrasca: I have wath a video today about your first class enviroment.
2021-05-14T14:27:02Z ebrasca: Today
2021-05-14T14:27:14Z beach: ebrasca: Great!
2021-05-14T14:27:37Z jackdaniel: CL-ASHOK: I'm usually linking this post written by sjl: https://stevelosh.com/blog/2013/09/teach-dont-tell/
2021-05-14T14:27:54Z ebrasca: I am not sure why it is a good idea.
2021-05-14T14:27:54Z no-defun-allowed: CL-ASHOK: You likely want to make separate documentation for the protocol users should use, and for internals.
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2021-05-14T14:28:19Z beach: CL-ASHOK: You mean what software to use?  There are so many choices that any one choice would only get a tiny fraction of approval.
2021-05-14T14:28:23Z jackdaniel: it provides a very good intuition about different types of documentation and how they supplement each other
2021-05-14T14:28:33Z CL-ASHOK: jackdaniel: thanks! time to read :D Exactly what I was looking for
2021-05-14T14:28:41Z jackdaniel: sure
2021-05-14T14:29:13Z CL-ASHOK: no-defun-allowed: That's true, will do that. For now, its just documentation for myself, but I'll then split it into two and the exported functions will go to the user documentation
2021-05-14T14:29:42Z CL-ASHOK: beach: I'm just using GitHub Wiki Pages for Now, want to keep overhead as low as possible
2021-05-14T14:29:55Z beach: I see, yes.
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2021-05-14T14:33:20Z CL-ASHOK: Who wrote QuickDocs? Is that something that can be started again?
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2021-05-14T14:36:59Z no-defun-allowed: It can, but one should wonder if it should. At least nice documentation needs more formatting and introductory text than what you can get from scraping documentation strings.
2021-05-14T14:39:22Z CL-ASHOK: I never had the chance to use it. I see QuickRef from time to time, but I'm not the biggest fan
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2021-05-14T14:43:08Z no-defun-allowed: My best documentation is probably in <https://theemacsshibe.gitlab.io/documentation/> which is still incomplete, but has almost everything I think is right for a reference.
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2021-05-14T14:44:31Z no-defun-allowed: Sometimes it also mentions why a design decision was made, which also wouldn't fit in a documentation string or internal comment.
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2021-05-14T14:47:39Z CL-ASHOK: Thats a very detailed example. The decision of the pages (left hand menu, prev / next on the top) is really good
2021-05-14T14:48:42Z CL-ASHOK: Yes, I think documenting the why behind design decisions is very important. Basically the exported definitions should be clearly explained so that a newcomer can read them, then the internal definitions should be lightly explained, with a focus on the why and how vs. detailed notes on each function
2021-05-14T14:49:06Z CL-ASHOK: IMO many functions are self explanatory, and we get lazy anyway when it comes to writing docs.
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2021-05-14T14:50:17Z no-defun-allowed: My "aggressively move code into separate functions" strategy also lets me seemingly avoid comments by picking nice function names.
2021-05-14T14:51:49Z ptdevnull: I'm trying to set up a Doom Emacs environment with sly, but I keep running into issues with sly-contrib. Currently it's throwing an error trying to load sly-macrostep and complaining of an attempt to load an empty FASL file. Does anyone have a working configuration?
2021-05-14T14:51:52Z no-defun-allowed: (Of course, one picks good function names instead of writing good comments.)
2021-05-14T14:53:12Z ptdevnull: What's the best way to pastebin a Slime/Sly backtrace?
2021-05-14T14:53:22Z CL-ASHOK: I do the same, although I still haven't mastered what I think is a good naming convention for functions. I do really like functions & variables having separate namespaces
2021-05-14T14:54:21Z CL-ASHOK: e.g. (let ((word-list (word-list word-string))... is preferred style, the repetition of the variable / function name imo makes it easier to digest
2021-05-14T14:54:34Z CL-ASHOK: my* preferred style
2021-05-14T14:57:39Z gabc: Ben j'ai pas fait ç
2021-05-14T15:07:27Z CL-ASHOK: ptdevnull: sorry don't know the answer of your query. Although I recommend Vanilla Emacs if you want to modify things a bit, after some time, the customised solutions like Doom / Portacle become a pain to modify to your desired setup
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2021-05-14T15:37:38Z lukego: splittist, fiddlerwoaroof: hey I just pushed a small-but-big change to CLIME on the emacs side. Now it basically works fine to kill/yank CLIME images into other buffers. (Before if you moved the point onto an image then the keyboard stopped working because all the keymap events were buggered up, and yanked images didn't work with ACCEPT.) "Simple" fix that took a full day w/ help from #emacs to work out :)
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2021-05-14T15:39:12Z lukego: Have to think about performance soon...  I currently have about 60,000 presentations alive in both Emacs (as area definitions on image objects) and in Lisp (as strong references in clim-emacs::*presentations* registry.) It takes noticable time for Emacs to update all the presentations when switching input context e.g. a couple of seconds now.
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2021-05-14T15:46:58Z jmercouris: no-defun-allowed: comments are not intended to explain what, but how, the function name should /always/ suffice for what
2021-05-14T15:47:03Z jmercouris: that is the whole point of a function name/signature
2021-05-14T15:47:14Z jmercouris: they are not arbitrary symbols, they are a piece of text that is supposed to convey meaning for programmers
2021-05-14T15:47:24Z jmercouris: otherwise each function could be completely anonymous or named by memory address... etc
2021-05-14T15:47:57Z jmercouris: in other words, good function names are not a substitute for comments
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2021-05-14T15:48:19Z phoe: I'd be more like, names explain the "what", documentation and docstrings explain the "how", comments explain the "why"
2021-05-14T15:48:56Z jmercouris: yeah, close enough 11
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2021-05-14T15:55:33Z jnewton: jmercouris:  should I have to change the name if I don't change what a function does, but I change how it does it?
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2021-05-14T15:56:22Z jnewton: I would say that normally a function name is independent of its implementation.  There are exceptions of course such as.   FooFast and FooSlow
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2021-05-14T16:01:43Z Inline: what the fuck is up
2021-05-14T16:01:51Z Inline: my client gets disconnected so often
2021-05-14T16:01:55Z Inline: bah
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2021-05-14T16:14:22Z jmercouris: jnewton: no, the name only describes what
2021-05-14T16:14:33Z jmercouris: Whether it is slow or fast is a property
2021-05-14T16:14:59Z jmercouris: Unless you are calling it slow-sort as a noun
2021-05-14T16:15:23Z jmercouris: The name need not ever change
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2021-05-14T16:34:36Z Inline notes the note takers
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2021-05-14T17:36:18Z pjb: phoe: yes, but only superstars need to apply to join Ravenpack's team of superstars… ;-)
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2021-05-14T17:39:14Z pjb: I wonder what a real module system is…
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2021-05-14T17:41:48Z loli: beach: is that the case because of qualification and updating qualification upon module changes would be too expensive?
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2021-05-14T17:44:13Z loli: beach: also do you have any more references for first class environments, I've read your SiCL paper about the subject
2021-05-14T17:44:25Z loli: it seems the scheme guys have first class environments (I believe MIT does)
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2021-05-14T18:33:41Z rpg: I could use some iterate advice if anyone has it.  I have an iter loop using with-vector, and when I declare the type of the iteration variable I get this warning: Iterate, in clause  (FOR CHILD IN-VECTOR (CHOICE-CHILDREN CHOICE-ENTRY) WITH-INDEX INDEX):    Cannot supply an initial value for type (OR NULL CHOICE); using NIL.  I have no idea how to make it go away.
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2021-05-14T18:38:55Z rpg: The problem only arises when I put in a type declaration for this variable (so, yes, I know -- don't do that then!).
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2021-05-14T18:49:02Z rpg: I found the problem -- it's what I think of as a rare oops in the ITERATE code base.
2021-05-14T18:54:19Z Bike: the function that's coming from looks dicey but i don't understand what it does well enough to diagnose anything
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2021-05-14T18:54:36Z Bike: seems like they could just do (subtypep null declared-type) and if true, heyo, initialize to nil
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2021-05-14T18:59:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: I wish that job posting for RavenPack showed up three months ago
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2021-05-14T19:42:33Z nij: Is there a typo in Alexandria's manual, as in "Function: mappend function &rest lists" ;; https://common-lisp.net/project/alexandria/draft/alexandria.html
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2021-05-14T19:42:46Z nij: Seems like it should have said "..&rest list".
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2021-05-14T20:19:26Z jackdaniel: I wrote a small tutorial about CLIM: http://turtleware.eu/posts/You-dont-need-a-backend-to-use-CLIM.html for those interested :)
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2021-05-14T20:50:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: jackdaniel: cool
2021-05-14T20:50:27Z jackdaniel: thanks
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2021-05-14T21:07:11Z nij: How much mouse should I use with CLIM? Is it possible to customize it to be keyboard-centric?
2021-05-14T21:07:24Z nij: jackdaniel: thanks for your tutorial :)
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2021-05-14T21:23:53Z jackdaniel: nij: thanks. that depends on the application, but in principle commands may have keyboard accelerators
2021-05-14T21:24:48Z jackdaniel: as of selecting presentations on the screen, at some point of time I saw that someone hacked something so small numbers appeared beside acceptable presentations so it was possible to type the number instead of using a pointer
2021-05-14T21:24:54Z jackdaniel: I don't remember details though
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2021-05-14T21:51:48Z scymtym: probably this: https://techfak.de/~jmoringe/accept-number.ogv
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2021-05-14T23:11:27Z copec: What sort of CI/CD do you use with CL? Do you create a fresh image if you fix something and commit it to a repository? Have you setup a way to update the remote image? What sort of interaction do you do between a local copy of your source, and local running emacs with a remote swank?
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2021-05-14T23:24:40Z pjb: copec: yes, if you want to validate or build a library or application, it's better to start from a fresh image.
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2021-05-14T23:27:08Z pjb: copec: there seems to be: https://lisp-lang.org/learn/continuous-integration
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2021-05-14T23:28:08Z pjb: copec: and: https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/testing.html#gitlab-ci
2021-05-14T23:28:31Z pjb: and more: https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=CI/CD+Common+Lisp&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
2021-05-14T23:29:21Z pjb: copec: of course, it's related to the question of delivery: it will depend on how you will deliver your code, and how you test it.
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2021-05-14T23:29:59Z pjb: copec: but assuming you build (save) executable images, here is a typical example of how I proceed: https://github.com/informatimago/hw
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2021-05-14T23:31:24Z pjb: copec: note, ecl is a special case, since it doesn't save executable images, but instead it will produce normal elf objects and binaries (or whatever native format on the target platform, since it goes thru gcc to compile and link).
2021-05-14T23:32:00Z copec: The code I'm using is just for me to administrate a bunch of things, we use SaltStack and gitlab internally, so I made some states that build roswell, and then I use that to build my image (against sbcl specifically)
2021-05-14T23:32:49Z copec: which then gets installed in a docker container
2021-05-14T23:33:27Z copec: It all seemed so what everybody does for non-lisp stuff, I just wondered if I'm doing it wrong
2021-05-14T23:33:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: copec: for CI/CD I usually end up just using docker or whatever
2021-05-14T23:35:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: The build is failing now :( but, here's a CircleCI configuration for one of my projects: https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/daydreamer/blob/master/.circleci/config.yml
2021-05-14T23:35:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: I also just like to have a simple shell script or makefile instead of using Roswell
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2021-05-14T23:37:41Z copec: thanks pjb fiddlerwoaroof
2021-05-14T23:37:52Z copec looks at stuff for a bit
2021-05-14T23:37:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: Some of my other repos use Github Actions, I thin
2021-05-14T23:38:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: Here's an example of that: https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/cl-git/blob/master/.github/workflows/test.yaml
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2021-05-14T23:43:10Z etimmons: copec: and here's a concrete example with Gitlab CI https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/asdf/asdf/-/blob/master/gitlab-ci.yml
2021-05-14T23:45:00Z copec: "huh, why you manually building asdf?" ... "Oh wait, this is a repository FOR asdf"
2021-05-14T23:46:45Z copec: That's pretty neat, building and testing against all the implementations
2021-05-14T23:47:07Z copec: Is clasp up to it yet etimmons?
2021-05-14T23:49:44Z etimmons: In progress: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/asdf/asdf/-/merge_requests/170
2021-05-14T23:51:18Z copec: nice!
2021-05-14T23:58:18Z pjb: Definitely. Once you've written whatever you use to build or run tests, you should have a Makefile to do it easily from he shell.
2021-05-14T23:58:29Z pjb: make application ; make tests  etc.
2021-05-14T23:58:46Z pjb: make docker
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2021-05-15T00:46:51Z nij: Is there any shell script that compiles common lisp into shell?
2021-05-15T00:49:16Z no-defun-allowed: I hope not.
2021-05-15T00:50:06Z nij: Hmm.. why not?
2021-05-15T00:50:31Z Bike: well, you'd need a lisp runtime in shell script
2021-05-15T00:52:24Z nij: Is it possible?
2021-05-15T00:53:11Z Nilby: There are Common Lisp shells and mini-Lisps written in shell.
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2021-05-15T00:53:32Z no-defun-allowed: Hopefully I never have to use either.
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2021-05-15T00:54:23Z nij: no-defun-allowed: I'm thinking of an apocalypstic scenario xD
2021-05-15T00:56:47Z no-defun-allowed: This dictionary says an apocalypse is "something viewed as a prophetic revelation". Since people know that shells are pretty janky, I would say you are in a post-apocalyptic scenario already.
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2021-05-15T01:37:05Z Xach: etimmons: adopt-subcommands got me to add support for looking up release info from gitlab
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2021-05-15T01:37:46Z Xach: it turned out to be pretty easy - i can mostly pretend it's github, the protocol of GFs meant I only had to implement a single method in a key place...
2021-05-15T01:40:43Z copec: nij bash is actually a bit faster than python in many cases, and it's directly interpreting the text stream, I've thought it would be funny to have a lisp on top of bash
2021-05-15T01:41:20Z copec: I should say, doing script things ie running a script from a shell
2021-05-15T01:41:30Z nij: just found this copec https://github.com/chr15m/flk
2021-05-15T01:41:38Z nij: not CL.. but lisp at least
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2021-05-15T01:42:47Z etimmons: Xach: oh man, I didn't realize you didn't have that already!
2021-05-15T01:42:57Z etimmons: Thanks for humoring me!
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2021-05-15T01:45:06Z Nilby: also https://github.com/alandipert/gherkin
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2021-05-15T02:45:02Z pjb: nij: https://cliki.net/programming%20language says Bash: no known CL implementation written in bash.
2021-05-15T02:45:09Z pjb: nij: be sure to update it if you find something.
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2021-05-15T02:57:12Z nij: Hmm.. I've asked this newb question before, but I wasn't happy with the solution. So here's another try.
2021-05-15T02:57:56Z nij: In my sbcl config, I use the package asdf and some symbols in it. However, in a freshly new workstation there's no asdf yet.
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2021-05-15T02:58:27Z nij: Is there a way to wrap those that contain `asdf:..` in some form, so that when there's no asdf yet, it doesn't get loaded at read time?
2021-05-15T02:59:49Z mfiano: #+asdf
2021-05-15T02:59:50Z Nilby: You know about #- #+ and *features* right? So maybe #-asdf
2021-05-15T03:02:50Z pjb: nij: https://cliki.net/programming%20language says Bash: no known CL implementation written in bash.
2021-05-15T03:02:50Z pjb: nij: be sure to update it if you find something.
2021-05-15T03:03:20Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-05-15T03:04:24Z beach: loli: Can you give me more context to your question?  I am not sure what you are referring to.
2021-05-15T03:05:13Z beach: loli: We extracted the code for first-class global environments into the Clostrum library which has more documentation.  There is also a presentation in the context of the online Lisp meeting that I made.
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2021-05-15T03:06:07Z loli: I believe that was in response to your comment about it being more costly for CL to have a notion of either first class environments or modules.
2021-05-15T03:06:23Z loli: beach: if you don't mind, could you link me the presentaiton, that would be interesting to review
2021-05-15T03:06:44Z beach: OK, one thing at a time. :) I haven't finished my morning coffee yet.
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2021-05-15T03:07:33Z beach: loli: "costly" in terms of performance or in terms of human effort?
2021-05-15T03:07:47Z loli: I believe it was in a discussion about performance, you mentioned nested hash table calls
2021-05-15T03:07:58Z loli: usually I see this as being inlined away during symbol resolution
2021-05-15T03:08:11Z beach: OK, I see.
2021-05-15T03:08:26Z beach: I don't think I said "nested", but OK, let me see...
2021-05-15T03:09:07Z loli: well I assume CL already deals with a flat version of this, as it has to lookup things in it's image which we can view as a flat table?
2021-05-15T03:09:09Z beach: Usually, a typical Common Lisp implementation uses the symbol as an indirection to the function, so that SYMBOL-FUNCTION merely accesses a slot in the symbol.
2021-05-15T03:09:59Z beach: But that won't do when you have first-class global environments, because it name must resolve differently in different environments.
2021-05-15T03:10:02Z loli: ahh, so when you use libraries, it dumps the names into the namespace so it's a O(1) lookup call?
2021-05-15T03:10:47Z beach: Yes, the late binding costs O(1) and a very small O(1) in a typical Common Lisp implementation.
2021-05-15T03:11:22Z beach: So what most previous work does is to replace that indirection by a hash-table lookup.
2021-05-15T03:11:47Z beach: Each environment then has a hash table mapping names to functions.
2021-05-15T03:12:09Z jasom: beach: do you forgo the late-binding when inlining would be permitted by the spec?
2021-05-15T03:12:15Z beach: But if you do a hash-table lookup for each function call, you will slow down that important operation by an order of magnitude.
2021-05-15T03:12:24Z beach: jasom: Correct.
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2021-05-15T03:12:37Z beach: jasom: I mean, yes, you are allowed to.
2021-05-15T03:12:49Z loli: yes, in the absence of symbol resolution step, that would cost you performance wise
2021-05-15T03:13:06Z beach: What do you mean by a "symbol resolution step"?
2021-05-15T03:14:19Z loli: thinking on it, I don't think it's relevant here, but it resolves the name to the proper one
2021-05-15T03:14:26Z jasom: A hash-table lookup is a larger (but still potentially O(1)) cost than reading a slot from a symbol
2021-05-15T03:14:38Z beach: It is still way too slow.
2021-05-15T03:14:57Z loli: have the schemes guys done first class environments, I heard the MIT guys have with their reflective tower?
2021-05-15T03:15:01Z beach: So what I did for the SICL work was that I use an indirection through a de-materialized "function cell" (just a CONS cell really), so that when code is loaded into some environment, the name resolves to an environment-specific cell.
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2021-05-15T03:15:21Z jasom: That makes sense
2021-05-15T03:15:44Z beach: loli: Scheme has traditionally not been that concerned with performance, so they seem to accept the hash-table lookup for each function call.  At least that's what Queinnec's work does.
2021-05-15T03:15:49Z jasom: like doing the hash-table lookup at compile time
2021-05-15T03:16:07Z beach: jasom: Then you no longer have late binding.
2021-05-15T03:16:43Z loli: I think factor does that, but keeps the illusion of late binding
2021-05-15T03:16:48Z loli: through some means
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2021-05-15T03:17:30Z beach: The factor does what?  (Still working on my coffee).
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2021-05-15T03:17:55Z loli: doing the hash-table lookup at compile time
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2021-05-15T03:18:17Z beach: Well the "some means" is the function cell I just mentioned.
2021-05-15T03:18:27Z beach: But I found no previous work that had done this.
2021-05-15T03:19:23Z beach: So it is easy to have first-class global environments or modules if you either don't need late binding (as static languages do) or if you don't care about performance of function calls.
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2021-05-15T03:20:38Z loli: I believe this was the post I was referring to https://factor-language.blogspot.com/2008/01/compiler-overhaul.html
2021-05-15T03:21:59Z beach: Can you summarize that page for us?
2021-05-15T03:22:11Z Nilby: Another confusing language name: "I used this scheme to go factor scheme factor."
2021-05-15T03:23:48Z beach: So my work on first-class global environments solves the problem by resolving names to function cells at load time, but that works only when the name is known statically.  If you call (SYMBOL-FUNCTION <non-constant-form>), then you still need a hash-table lookup, but the performance of such a call is less critical than that of a function call.
2021-05-15T03:25:06Z beach: Oh, and my ELS paper this year is another solution to the problem of late binding, and it is potentially even faster than the function-cell technique.
2021-05-15T03:25:07Z loli: Factor as a language is early binding, but with a few tricks, they make it seem like they have late binding which works in a lot of scenarios
2021-05-15T03:25:26Z beach: I see.
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2021-05-15T03:26:00Z saturn2: why can't each global environment have its own symbols?
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2021-05-15T03:26:05Z beach: But on that page they talk about "interpreter", so they obviously don't position themselves in the "performance" camp.
2021-05-15T03:26:50Z loli: well they also talk about a compiler
2021-05-15T03:27:15Z loli: he mentions in the post replacing the interpreter with a compiler
2021-05-15T03:27:21Z saturn2: with a copy-on-write mechanism
2021-05-15T03:27:23Z beach: saturn2: They could.  That's another possible solution.  It would be very confusing, and you would need a way to refer to "the symbol which has the same name and package as this one, but in a different environment".
2021-05-15T03:27:40Z loli: beach: is your ELS paper released?
2021-05-15T03:28:03Z beach: loli: Yes.  It's in the proceedings for this year's ELS.
2021-05-15T03:28:29Z beach: saturn2: Plus, because the reader creates symbols, you would have to decide on the module/environment at read time.
2021-05-15T03:28:31Z saturn2: beach: it would just be going from package->symbol to environment->package->symbol, so it doesn't seem much more confusing than packages are
2021-05-15T03:28:57Z beach: But it would have to be done at read time.
2021-05-15T03:29:35Z saturn2: i see...
2021-05-15T03:30:34Z beach: loli: Also http://metamodular.com/SICL/call-site-optimization.pdf should work.
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2021-05-15T03:30:47Z loli: ahh perfect I was just about to ask you if it was "Call-site optimization for Common Lisp" in the Preceedings
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2021-05-15T03:31:08Z beach: Yes.
2021-05-15T03:31:32Z beach: That work is able to remove even the indirection through the cell most of the time.
2021-05-15T03:31:43Z saturn2: what is the use-case for first-class global environments?
2021-05-15T03:32:16Z beach: Several...
2021-05-15T03:32:37Z beach: I invented them so that I could isolate the host Common Lisp system from the SICL code during bootstrapping.
2021-05-15T03:32:53Z beach: SICL bootstrapping uses 5 different first-class global environments for different phases.
2021-05-15T03:33:00Z beach: But also as modules.
2021-05-15T03:33:26Z loli: beach: how limiting is having to do it at read time?
2021-05-15T03:33:56Z beach: You may want to isolate (say) the compiler internals from the API.  Then if you put the internals in a first-class global environment by itself, you can "export" only the API to other first-class global environments.
2021-05-15T03:34:12Z beach: loli: I haven't investigated that.
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2021-05-15T03:35:10Z beach: saturn2: So you can then also have different versions of the same system as long as each version is in a different first-class global environment.  That solves the problem of two systems, needed simultaneously, require different versions of some library.
2021-05-15T03:35:56Z beach: saturn2: But my plan is also to use first-class global environments to isolate different users from one another, and to isolate users from the system, in a multi-user Common Lisp system.
2021-05-15T03:37:08Z loli: beach: with this new call-site optimization you found, is there still much more overhead versus the traditional model CL has? I'm curious from a new compiler perspective, and where the state of this research is at
2021-05-15T03:37:17Z loli: I'll read the paper in full later
2021-05-15T03:37:22Z saturn2: wow, that sounds very useful
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2021-05-15T03:38:22Z loli: saturn2: you can do a lot of fun things, I've thought of having some way of sharing my nyxt browser state between my machines, then switching to different environments for a different machines state, and manipulating that, and through some protocol send the changes back (this is a bit silly, but would be fun to try to setup)
2021-05-15T03:38:45Z beach: loli: No, it's the other way around.  The work on first-class global environments is already as fast as the traditional indirection through a symbol, and the work on call-site optimization suggests that we will be able to do function calls as fast as a static language like C++ can.
2021-05-15T03:39:34Z loli: beach: perfect, I can use this to my own means, and hopefully give something back to this field at some point in the future.
2021-05-15T03:40:57Z beach: Great!  What means are those?
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2021-05-15T03:42:00Z loli: Well I've been writing a compiler, and if things go well the language shall blossom quite nicely in enough time
2021-05-15T03:42:25Z loli: exploration of ideas is quite important
2021-05-15T03:42:25Z beach: I see.  A new language?
2021-05-15T03:42:27Z loli: yes
2021-05-15T03:42:47Z beach: Good luck!
2021-05-15T03:45:21Z loli: thank you
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2021-05-15T04:14:05Z terpri: beach, any thoughts on object-capability security models? a la johnathan reeves's w7 or chris lemmer webber's spritely goblins
2021-05-15T04:14:29Z terpri: jonathan rees*
2021-05-15T04:14:42Z beach: The plan is to make CLOSOS mainly capability based.
2021-05-15T04:15:03Z beach: But not as extremely as (say) EROS.
2021-05-15T04:15:09Z terpri: cool
2021-05-15T04:15:09Z beach: More like Multics.
2021-05-15T04:18:11Z terpri: a number people thought that common lisp was basically impossible to secure, but i think they were overly pessimistic and perhaps stuck in an actor-model rut
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2021-05-15T04:18:56Z beach: We haven't proven them wrong quite yet.  A lot of work remains.
2021-05-15T04:19:06Z terpri: (granted, CL has a fair amount of global state and likely a number of funky edge cases)
2021-05-15T04:20:29Z terpri: beach, fair enough
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2021-05-15T04:21:44Z terpri: beach, any recommended reading for multics security? i'm totally unfamiliar with it (but willing to trawl through multicians.org if nothing comes to mind, it's be good to know multics better in any case)
2021-05-15T04:21:49Z terpri: it'd*
2021-05-15T04:24:29Z beach: I don't have anything specific in mind for the security aspect.  But the basic idea is that you have an "object store" (i.e. the segment hierarchy in Multics) with ACLs (access control lists), and when you access an object in the store (done by the dynamic linker in Multics) the ACL determines the capability you get.  After that, everything is capability based.
2021-05-15T04:26:08Z beach: EROS removed the ACLs, I think completely, and did everything with capabilities, but I find it hard to think in those terms.
2021-05-15T04:26:41Z terpri: beach, also...random question...would SICL potentially be useful for adding CL as a supported language to guile (a multilanguage scheme system that already fully supports "core" elisp and other langs)? e.g. for the later/higher-level parts of the spec? or is it its own thing like sbcl and other traditonal implementations?
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2021-05-15T04:27:23Z beach: Good question...
2021-05-15T04:29:03Z terpri: beach, i'll try it out when the time comes (i'm barely past number parsing!) and let you know if i discover anything interesting. really cool project either way
2021-05-15T04:29:04Z beach: I am afraid that the SICL system code is going to require its own bootstrapping technique.  I used to believe that I could write "modules" of system code to be added to a partial Common Lisp system, but it turned out to be too hard for a person with limited brain capacity like myself to write modules in a subset of the language.
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2021-05-15T04:29:22Z beach: Thanks.
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2021-05-15T04:30:22Z beach: ... so I decided to write the modules using the full Common Lisp language.  But that means that you either need to have an existing Common Lisp implementation (which could be a slow interpreter) to load those modules.  And then Guile would not qualify I guess.
2021-05-15T04:31:06Z beach: For SICL, I have a solution of course.  I bootstrap using an existing conforming Common Lisp implementation, plus the CLOSER-MOP library.
2021-05-15T04:31:49Z beach: But Guile isn't built like that.  Nor is any existing Common Lisp implementation as far as I know.
2021-05-15T04:32:09Z moon-child: beach: what are the access categories for ACLs?
2021-05-15T04:32:23Z beach: In Multic?
2021-05-15T04:32:25Z beach: s
2021-05-15T04:32:28Z moon-child: by which I mean, to what kind of entity is access to some object by its ACL?
2021-05-15T04:32:34Z moon-child: in closos
2021-05-15T04:33:05Z beach: I imagine the same as in Multics, i.e., user and group.
2021-05-15T04:33:33Z beach: Like beach.user or beach.admin.
2021-05-15T04:34:04Z terpri: yes, and "layering" CL in a nontrivial way would be difficult (or at least the proposals for it were rejected as too complicated or unnecessary iirc)
2021-05-15T04:34:08Z beach: Then the ACLs can contain wildcards like *.admin (read/write) and beach.* (read only).
2021-05-15T04:35:20Z moon-child: cool
2021-05-15T04:35:23Z moon-child: terpri: I expect an easier approach would be compiling a given language to cl
2021-05-15T04:35:23Z beach: terpri: Yes, the entire language is very tightly coupled.  You can do evaluation at read time, etc.
2021-05-15T04:36:25Z beach: terpri: It is still possible to layer the implementation.  For example, the SBCL compiler doesn't use classes or generic functions (or so I have been told).  But I am not able to work like that.
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2021-05-15T04:38:35Z beach: And I was told by stassats that there was no reason for the SBCL compiler to use generic functions and classes, because doing so would only have the effect of making it slower.
2021-05-15T04:40:08Z beach: Now, the way I see that issue is that, because generic dispatch is not very fast in SBCL, they then avoid the use of a great tool to write a major component of the system.  I would much rather make generic dispatch faster and use the tool.
2021-05-15T04:42:07Z terpri: beach, btw, you *do* know of TUNES.org, right? conceptually, vaguely like CLOSOS, but much more of a pie-in-the-sky research project that fizzled out years ago; we were more often engaged in reflection-related wool-gathering instead of setting concrete goals and writing functioning programs (imho)
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2021-05-15T04:48:19Z beach: terpri: Yes, I know about Tunes.  I know Fare fairly well.
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2021-05-15T04:49:12Z terpri: beach, i thought i detected a hint of the TUNES-nature in the CLOSOS paper :)
2021-05-15T04:49:27Z beach: I wouldn't be surprised.
2021-05-15T04:49:54Z beach: Fare has a lot of good ideas.
2021-05-15T04:50:27Z beach: I mean, this stuff is not rocket science.  Anybody thinking about what we have and what we are doing wrong would come to similar conclusions.
2021-05-15T04:50:35Z beach: The details may vary of course.
2021-05-15T04:51:23Z terpri: true
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2021-05-15T05:11:09Z terpri: a bit off-topic, but i'm personally interested in new approaches and optimizations for multiple dispatch, as adding prototypes with multiple dispatch to JS would allow me to (in a roundabout way) correct some serious design flaws in JS BigInt's design that i still feel guilty about (i was the main spidermonkey implementer and worked on other aspects of it)
2021-05-15T05:13:04Z terpri: (tl;dr google enabled a draft implementation early and changes to mathematical edge cases were rejected because "google says no", despite independent objections from me and fabrice bellard)
2021-05-15T05:13:36Z terpri: but for now there are more interesting and pleasant projects to work on in lisp-land
2021-05-15T05:15:58Z Nilby: terpri: You may have seen them, but there's some interesting papers about multiple dispatch here: https://opendylan.org/documentation/publications.html
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2021-05-15T05:19:11Z beach: terpri: Can I assume you know about my work on generic dispatch? http://metamodular.com/SICL/generic-dispatch.pdf
2021-05-15T05:21:08Z terpri: Nilby, oh, neat, i have in fact not seen them (despite being interested enough in dylan to have a dead-tree copy of the language reference). even some of the older papers look potentially relevant to modern JS, ty for the link!
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2021-05-15T05:22:12Z terpri: beach, you can indeed :) i think stumbling across that is how i actually heard about SICL
2021-05-15T05:22:14Z Nilby: terpri: You're welcome. I still harbor some nostalgia for Dylan.
2021-05-15T05:22:28Z beach: OK, good.
2021-05-15T05:23:47Z Nilby: beach: I was assuming they knew about your excellent papers too :)
2021-05-15T05:24:14Z beach: Heh *blush*.
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2021-05-15T06:29:07Z splittist: Kids, don't skip your trig classes. One day you're going to want to use the two-argument form of ATAN to draw Pacman...
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2021-05-15T10:25:25Z engblom: Is there a ready macro like this for Common Lisp: https://clojuredocs.org/clojure.core/-%3E%3E ?
2021-05-15T10:26:18Z phoe: engblom: arrow macros, yes
2021-05-15T10:26:21Z phoe: there are a few libraries
2021-05-15T10:26:31Z phoe: e.g. https://github.com/Harleqin/arrows
2021-05-15T10:26:48Z phoe: these are clojurelike in their nature
2021-05-15T10:27:07Z phoe: there's also a shameless plug from me, https://github.com/phoe/binding-arrows - they have some semantic differences to the clojurelike implementation
2021-05-15T10:27:44Z engblom: phoe: Thanks! As they are separate libaries, I guess there is nothing that replaces them directly in the common lisp specification?
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2021-05-15T10:28:45Z phoe: engblom: you are correct
2021-05-15T10:29:17Z phoe: the CL specification hasn't changed since 1994 and I don't know if anyone thought of arrow macros or something similar back in the way
2021-05-15T10:29:38Z engblom: Is there any work in progress to update the specification?
2021-05-15T10:30:03Z phoe: what do you mean by "update"?
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2021-05-15T10:31:24Z engblom: Like adding stuff like these arrows, and maybe stuff that makes it easier to do threaded programming in a safe way.
2021-05-15T10:31:46Z phoe: I guess not - there's no money on the table
2021-05-15T10:32:00Z phoe: and updating a huge language specification like ANSI CL requires tons of it.
2021-05-15T10:32:59Z phoe: the broader CL ecosystem has worked around this issue by means of libraries that can be implemented portably for stuff like arrows, and portability libraries that expose uniform API for stuff that requires implementation support
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2021-05-15T10:33:10Z engblom: Not necessary, as many ideas could be brought directly from Clojure. It is not like the whole specification would need to be rewritten, just a few things added.
2021-05-15T10:34:07Z phoe: there was a panel about this specific issue during the European Lisp Symposium
2021-05-15T10:35:31Z phoe: in short: yes, it could be added, but the adoption rate is likely going to be minimal
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2021-05-15T10:36:51Z phoe: there's the tiny cost of editing the specification, big cost of convincing the implementers that it is worth for them to add this into their implementations, and the impossible cost of getting everyone to agree that this it the changeset to ANSI CL that is The Correct One that should be The New One™
2021-05-15T10:38:25Z phoe: and then there's the obvious collective cost of writing the code, testing it, aligning it with other implementations, and maintaining it
2021-05-15T10:39:23Z phoe: I don't want to say that it can't be done, but I want to say that there's been an attempt to do so every few years since 1994, and the topic is brought up here every two weeks or so
2021-05-15T10:39:34Z phoe: and *nobody* has achieved much success in this area
2021-05-15T10:39:47Z phoe: so I guess that historical data speaks for itself
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2021-05-15T10:40:53Z engblom: Ok. There is another thing that I wonder how to do best: threadsafe global variables. Clojure got such ones to read and set without any other thread interfering.
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2021-05-15T10:41:09Z phoe: https://github.com/lmj/global-vars
2021-05-15T10:41:20Z phoe: setting these should be atomic on all supported implementations
2021-05-15T10:42:05Z engblom: Ok, thanks!
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2021-05-15T11:30:58Z nij:  In shcl, it stresses that it's not sending the string to another shell. Instead, it throws the input command through many functions, and arrives #'shcl-spawn at the end (https://github.com/SquircleSpace/shcl/blob/cc8d3c841b8b64b6715bf8f238fb19cd6093a793/core/support.lisp#L310). I wonder why it does that. Why doesn't it use uiop:run-program or sb-ext:run-program?
2021-05-15T11:31:44Z nij: (ps. anyone uses shcl as your main shell ;)?   )
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2021-05-15T11:41:20Z CL-ASHOK: Anybody know how to disable all the system messages on Freenode (connecting via Emacs ERC)
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2021-05-15T11:42:31Z splittist: nij: because it has its own spawn (in C), that it says is more flexible than the POSIX spawn.
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2021-05-15T11:58:39Z p_l: CL-ASHOK: ask on #emacs ? also beware, ERC is known to cause flooding by mistaken copy paste :)
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2021-05-15T12:05:57Z CL-ASHOK: p_l: Oh, I better be careful about that :)
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2021-05-15T12:20:44Z beach: Another week, another request for updating the "specification".
2021-05-15T12:20:56Z beach: s/request for/desire to/
2021-05-15T12:24:14Z beach: And this time comparing it to Clojure that does not even have an independent specification.  Oh well.
2021-05-15T12:25:41Z nij: splittist: how can it be even more flexible than uiop:run-program? I cannot think of a shell thing that you cannot do with uiop:run-program..
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2021-05-15T12:28:58Z beach: We should create a web page about "updating the Common Lisp specification" and teach minion to ask people to go read it.
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2021-05-15T13:46:21Z loke[m]: beach where did you see that?
2021-05-15T13:46:53Z beach: loke[m]: <engblom> Is there any work in progress to update the specification?
2021-05-15T13:47:13Z beach: A little more than 3 hours ago.
2021-05-15T13:49:46Z dieggsy: I use SBCL at home, but Allegro at work - are there people that prefer non-commercial allegro over other lisps for personal use? Are there compelling reasons to do this?
2021-05-15T13:52:25Z loke[m]: Oh I see.
2021-05-15T13:53:33Z loke[m]: dieggsy: last time I looked at the commercial versions, the free editions were way too limited to be useful.
2021-05-15T13:54:08Z dieggsy: loke: ah, limited how? Limitations aren't readily apparent just from their web pages lol
2021-05-15T13:55:01Z loke[m]: I'm a lös somewhat active in the APL community, which had a similar problem. The main implementation was commercial and quite limited. The community didn't really take off until GNU APL came out and the commercial vendor had made the their full version available for nine commercial use for free.
2021-05-15T13:56:02Z dieggsy: loke: lös?
2021-05-15T13:58:06Z beach: Looks like a word from loke[m]'s native language. :)
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2021-05-15T14:03:47Z loke[m]: beach indeed. I'm on the phone now and sometimes I accidentally press the wrong suggested word (I've configured it for both Swedish and English at the same time)
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2021-05-15T14:04:45Z beach: Heh, I see.
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2021-05-15T14:11:24Z splittist: nij: forgive me if I don't exercise your imagination for you when there is commented source code to read
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2021-05-15T14:27:58Z MrtnDk[m]: loke So, what does "lös" mean in this context?
2021-05-15T14:28:25Z loke[m]: Mrtn Dk: It has no meaning in this context. It's just what the autocomplete thought was a good word. It means "loose".
2021-05-15T14:30:32Z MrtnDk[m]: loke I guess my question should have been; what were you trying to say?
2021-05-15T14:30:50Z loke[m]: Just remove "a lös". :-)
2021-05-15T14:31:24Z MrtnDk[m]: loke Ahh! Now it makes sense! Thank thee.
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2021-05-15T14:52:09Z beach: minion: Please tell engblom about updating the Common Lisp standard.
2021-05-15T14:52:09Z minion: engblom: please look at updating the Common Lisp standard: See http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/updating-the-standard.html for an explanation why it is not likely that there will be a revised Common Lisp standard, why a revised standard is most often not needed, and sometimes not even desirable.
2021-05-15T14:52:33Z CL-ASHOK`: minion: is the standard being updated?
2021-05-15T14:52:38Z minion: is the standard being updated: I can't be expected to work when CLiki doesn't respond to me, can I?
2021-05-15T14:52:47Z beach: minion: Thanks!
2021-05-15T14:52:47Z minion: you're welcome
2021-05-15T14:53:40Z beach: If someone would like to give me remarks on that document, that would be great.  I wrote it in haste (and frustration), so I probably made mistakes.  And I probably omitted important stuff.
2021-05-15T14:54:57Z beach: But I might not incorporate (even valid) remarks right away.  I have more important things to do actually.
2021-05-15T14:57:19Z CL-ASHOK`: minion: what happened to CLiki?
2021-05-15T14:57:20Z minion: CLiki: a banana
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2021-05-15T14:57:29Z CL-ASHOK`: Would be great to have that wiki back and active
2021-05-15T14:58:05Z CL-ASHOK`: beach: do you have a link? I'll have a read
2021-05-15T14:58:30Z beach: Er, minion gave it to you.
2021-05-15T14:58:39Z beach: I even tried it myself.
2021-05-15T14:58:47Z CL-ASHOK`: Oh thanks, sorry I didn't fully follow the thread
2021-05-15T15:01:26Z dieggsy: beach: i think there's a typo in the first line - "has not been update" should be "has not been updated"
2021-05-15T15:01:36Z beach: Thanks.
2021-05-15T15:02:22Z beach: Fixed.  Thanks again.
2021-05-15T15:05:07Z jeosol: beach: thanks for the write up. I am reading it currently and will provide any feedback if necessary.
2021-05-15T15:05:18Z beach: Great, thank you!
2021-05-15T15:05:24Z beach: No rush of course.
2021-05-15T15:05:30Z jeosol: The "update" comments come up every now and then and it's definitely good to have somewhere to point people
2021-05-15T15:05:52Z beach: That's why I finally wrote this stuff, yes.
2021-05-15T15:06:14Z jeosol: I definitely, love the part of "they are not really programming languages" but "programming systems" .. That's bound to drive people crazy.
2021-05-15T15:06:20Z beach: I get tired of explaining each time.  And I get frustrated when I am not there to explain when the question is asked. :)
2021-05-15T15:06:35Z beach: Heh, thanks!
2021-05-15T15:06:40Z jeosol: beach: definitely a good thing and the document can be updated over time with more facts like you alluded to earlier
2021-05-15T15:06:44Z beach: I gave some careful thought to that phrase.
2021-05-15T15:06:59Z jeosol: but facts are facts
2021-05-15T15:07:20Z beach: jeosol: yes, I hope to add information to it.  But it is already a bit long.  I didn't see a way to make it shorter.
2021-05-15T15:07:34Z jeosol: I have definitely gotten more grey hair working with python to make things work (not my choice).
2021-05-15T15:07:50Z beach: We'll just strongly encourage the question askers to read it first.
2021-05-15T15:08:01Z jeosol: beach: Perhaps adding some sections later if necessary. I haven't finished reading it but it's definitely good to get a place to point people to
2021-05-15T15:08:50Z beach: Yeah.
2021-05-15T15:09:54Z jeosol: A lot of this also has to do with rigour of defining what constitutes a programming language, OOP, etc. People throw around terms, and those here, like yourself with CS and compiler backgrounds correct things, and I can get why it gets frustrating over time.
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2021-05-15T15:11:51Z beach: I agree.  And it is normal that #lisp has a mixture of people with different backgrounds and different knowledge.  But I think one ambition of #lisp should be to lift the level of knowledge of those who could use it.
2021-05-15T15:13:40Z beach: ... but maybe that's just the "teacher" half of me speaking and it may be harder than it sounds.
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2021-05-15T15:15:25Z CL-ASHOK`: nice article
2021-05-15T15:15:48Z CL-ASHOK`: esp this line: For something to be called a programming language, we think the minimum requirement is that it has a specification that is independent if its implementations, i.e., the programming systems that claim to be software that behaves according to the independent specification.
2021-05-15T15:15:57Z Bike: i should sketch up an explanation for eval and environments, since it's an interesting question and people get confused by it a lot
2021-05-15T15:16:01Z Bike: though i'm sure there are explanations already
2021-05-15T15:16:45Z CL-ASHOK`: Only question I had was why should a standards organization necessarily mean a meaningful cost: The first step would be to find an existing standards organization that would be willing to publish a revised standard. For an organization to be interested, they would at least be convinced that they would not lose any money doing so (recall that standards organizations are not charities or government agencies). If none can be found, one
2021-05-15T15:16:45Z CL-ASHOK`: would have to be created, which has its own cost associated with it.
2021-05-15T15:17:24Z Bike: as for the article, looks good. i'd maybe mention that for some thing like threads we have portability libraries, which aren't as good as a standard, but still provide many of the advantages a standard would have
2021-05-15T15:17:29Z Bike: for some things*
2021-05-15T15:17:35Z CL-ASHOK`: But its a moot point, no-one is going to update CL Standards (I don't even see the need), but for other standards, self publishing should be much cheaper than what it was before?
2021-05-15T15:17:48Z beach: CL-ASHOK`: Thanks.
2021-05-15T15:18:23Z beach: Bike: Oh, that would be great!
2021-05-15T15:19:25Z beach: And I should probably add some paragraphs explaining why, thanks to the macros system, new syntax can be provided in Common Lisp libraries, whereas other languages require a revised specification to accomplish that.
2021-05-15T15:20:01Z beach: Bike: yes, good idea about the portability libraries.
2021-05-15T15:20:27Z CL-ASHOK`: beach: Off-topic, but I loved your tutorial on indending for Lisp, it was the only one that made sense to me when I started (https://dept-info.labri.fr/~idurand/enseignement/lst-info/PFS/Common/Strandh-Tutorial/indentation.html), finally connected the handle to the username
2021-05-15T15:20:33Z beach: They are just as good as, or even better than, unspecified features of languages without a standard.
2021-05-15T15:21:58Z beach: CL-ASHOK`: Thanks.
2021-05-15T15:23:38Z beach: Yes, self publication would be an option, but a document won't be taken seriously unless it has the name of a reputable standards organization on it, like ANSI, ISO, IEEE, etc.
2021-05-15T15:25:04Z CL-ASHOK`: I guess that's true for the foreseeable future
2021-05-15T15:25:26Z CL-ASHOK`: Can't believe it cost $1m for the standard, quite lucky to have it funded by the US govt
2021-05-15T15:26:17Z beach: Just the time taken from the vendors would add up to that.
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2021-05-15T15:27:23Z beach: Add to that travel cost (no Zoom at the time), renting rooms for meetings, meals, hotel rooms, etc.
2021-05-15T15:28:22Z CL-ASHOK`: Definitely
2021-05-15T15:31:34Z beach: The median annual wage (according to wwww.bls.gov) of a programmer is around 80kUSD.  The cost (including benefits, fees, office etc) is probably twice that.
2021-05-15T15:31:48Z beach: But the ANSI committee members are not "median".
2021-05-15T15:32:13Z Bike: to write a really thorough explanation i'd probably feel the need to explain how a compiler works with example code and stuff... that's probably too complicated...
2021-05-15T15:32:14Z beach: So let's say the annual cost of one of those would be 200kUSD.
2021-05-15T15:32:16Z CL-ASHOK`:  Goes to show how much undervalued FOSS contributions are
2021-05-15T15:32:34Z beach: Bike: If you have time, go for it!
2021-05-15T15:33:24Z beach: I don't know how many members of the ANSI committee there were, but perhaps 20 or more?
2021-05-15T15:33:55Z beach: If each one invested a few months of work, the cost would quickly add up.
2021-05-15T15:35:00Z CL-ASHOK`: For sure. Grateful for it to have been funded
2021-05-15T15:35:14Z beach: Er, no mistake.  The annual cost of a median programmer would be 200kUSD.  For a committee member, twice that.
2021-05-15T15:36:12Z beach: So just three person-years would burn up the budget.  I am sure the investment was much greater than that.
2021-05-15T15:36:22Z CL-ASHOK`: Although depends if they pay. For example, in my old company, some of the senior members contributed voluntarily to World Economic Forum committee, as they get recognition from being part of the working group
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2021-05-15T15:36:59Z beach: Sure.
2021-05-15T15:40:38Z CL-ASHOK`: (defparameter ... can have doc strings?
2021-05-15T15:40:42Z CL-ASHOK`: giving me an error
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2021-05-15T15:41:50Z beach: clhs defparameter
2021-05-15T15:41:51Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpar.htm
2021-05-15T15:42:22Z CL-ASHOK`: Thanks
2021-05-15T15:42:29Z beach: Sure.
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2021-05-15T16:08:34Z contrapunctus: beach: I tried to shorten it a little, and also tried to rephrase it to be a little easier to read. Hope you don't mind Markdown. http://ix.io/3mTV
2021-05-15T16:10:02Z beach: contrapunctus: Thanks.  It shall have to wait until tomorrow.  I am working on other stuff right now.
2021-05-15T16:10:38Z contrapunctus: Okay.
2021-05-15T16:13:24Z contrapunctus: Ah, bugfix ^^ - http://ix.io/3mTZ
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2021-05-15T17:12:47Z jnewton: hello
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2021-05-15T17:22:40Z heisig: Hello jnewton!
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2021-05-15T17:29:04Z afasdf: (setf *images* nil)
2021-05-15T17:29:04Z afasdf: (dotimes (x 2) (setf *images* (append *images* (list `(:id ,x
2021-05-15T17:29:05Z afasdf:                                                        :thumbs nil)))))
2021-05-15T17:29:05Z afasdf: *images*
2021-05-15T17:29:06Z afasdf: => ((:ID 0 :THUMBS NIL) (:ID 1 :THUMBS NIL))
2021-05-15T17:29:06Z afasdf: (setf (getf (first *images*) :thumbs) "a")
2021-05-15T17:29:07Z afasdf: *images*
2021-05-15T17:29:07Z afasdf: => ((:ID 0 :THUMBS "a") (:ID 1 :THUMBS "a"))
2021-05-15T17:29:08Z afasdf: Why is the :thumbs of every plist in *images* set to "a", instead of just the plist retrieved by (first *images*)? How do I get the latter behaviour? This caused a bug which took half an hour to identify...
2021-05-15T17:29:15Z jackdaniel: astronavt: please use paste services
2021-05-15T17:29:20Z jackdaniel: afasdf: *
2021-05-15T17:29:27Z jackdaniel: astronavt: sorry, tab completion
2021-05-15T17:29:30Z afasdf: Sorry, I'll upload to pastebin now
2021-05-15T17:29:57Z afasdf: https://pastebin.com/9JveGxgp
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2021-05-15T17:33:09Z jackdaniel: you've used backquote and the compiler optimized tails of both lists by collapsing them to the same object
2021-05-15T17:33:18Z jackdaniel: (eq (cddr (first *images*)) (cddr (second *images*))) ; -> T
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2021-05-15T17:33:45Z jackdaniel: if you want to avoid that, then instead of a backquote use the operator list to cons a new object
2021-05-15T17:34:09Z afasdf: Thanks, I'll try that now
2021-05-15T17:34:59Z jackdaniel: i.e (dotimes (x 2) (setf *images* (append *images* (list (list :id x :thumbs nil)))))
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2021-05-15T17:35:11Z jackdaniel: that said, you define variables with defvar (or defparameter)
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2021-05-15T17:35:21Z jackdaniel: using setf on undefined variable is undefined behavior
2021-05-15T17:35:27Z afasdf: Yeah, I did that already in my code
2021-05-15T17:35:31Z jackdaniel: OK
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2021-05-15T17:37:21Z afasdf: Thanks, that solved my issue
2021-05-15T17:37:31Z jackdaniel: sure
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2021-05-15T18:24:23Z nij: splittist: ?
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2021-05-15T18:29:39Z nij: What do you mean?
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2021-05-15T18:41:47Z lotuseater: loke[m]: do you know this awesome project for compiling APL with CL? :)
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2021-05-15T18:42:44Z cl-newbie: Is there a way to bring up CLHS as a buffer in emacs (I think in Slime C-c C-d h brings it up as a webpage)
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2021-05-15T18:45:11Z lotuseater: cl-newbie: I've downloaded the html files. maybe one could convert them to .org for viewing directly in emacs?
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2021-05-15T18:47:00Z _death: emacs has browsers like eww and emacs-w3m
2021-05-15T18:47:21Z lotuseater: ah yes ^^
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2021-05-15T18:49:02Z cl-newbie-1: _death: but my guess is that is a bit inconvenient, as it won't be formatted as well as a native solution
2021-05-15T18:49:17Z nij: Ah it's actually a nice tip _death .. I will from now on read CLHS using eww.
2021-05-15T18:49:20Z _death: your guess is wrong, in my experience
2021-05-15T18:49:32Z cl-newbie-1: _death: :D okay let me try
2021-05-15T18:49:46Z nij: It's great as CLHS is almost text?
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2021-05-15T18:50:27Z _death: yes.. furthermore, you can download the hyperspec and use it offline by setting common-lisp-hyperspec-root
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2021-05-15T18:54:49Z _death: what's true is that I've been using emacs-w3m for a long time, and for a year or so I switched to eww, but I ended up going back to emacs-w3m with clhs.. I've this code in my .emacs: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2441#2441
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2021-05-15T19:15:08Z MrtnDk[m]: _death It doesn't mention w3m though, it does contain some out-commented code for eww, but how is that supposed to make it use w3m?
2021-05-15T19:16:57Z _death: I use w3m-emacs by default
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2021-05-15T19:42:53Z MrtnDk[m]: _death How? I remember resorting to eww after giving up on getting w3m to work with it.  Oh wait ... are you using the online version?
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2021-05-15T21:44:09Z nij: If I have two output streams, can I merge them together? Something like `tee` in bashism..
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2021-05-15T21:46:09Z nij: For example, this can be helpful when I want to see printed things in the repl, _AND_ have them logged into some files.
2021-05-15T21:46:41Z Nilby: chls concatenated-stream
2021-05-15T21:46:56Z Nilby: clhs concatenated-stream
2021-05-15T21:46:56Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_concat.htm
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2021-05-15T21:55:25Z nij: Nilby: concat streams do well for input streams but not output. However, I found broadcast streams from your hint. Thanks Nilby.
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2021-05-15T21:56:16Z Nilby: Sorry, I guess I meant broadcast-stram.
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2021-05-15T21:58:21Z nij: No no it's helpful anyways!
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2021-05-15T23:42:15Z harovali: hi, I'm having a hard time trying to load and get along running cl-charms. Has anyone used it with ease?
2021-05-15T23:42:22Z harovali: in sbcl
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2021-05-16T00:00:50Z pjb: harovali: what's your problem?
2021-05-16T00:02:04Z pjb: nij: and don't forget that if CL doesn't provide you with the stream abstraction you need, you can always implement your own, using Gray Streams.  See for example: https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/blob/master/clext/pipe-article-en.txt
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2021-05-16T00:38:50Z nij: pjb: cool tricks! Thanks :-)
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2021-05-16T01:29:38Z harovali`: pjb: hi Pascal. I tried twice to build and load cl-charms in two different linux machines. In both I had problems. But the second one is my attempt to have a clean start.
2021-05-16T01:30:13Z harovali`: In my (second) attempt, I'm right now am having this problem loading cl-charms
2021-05-16T01:30:14Z harovali`: https://pastebin.com/bCsFjixJ
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2021-05-16T01:32:42Z pjb: harovali`: the error seems to be muffled by quickload, Try (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :cl-charms)
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2021-05-16T01:40:21Z Bike: harovali`: grovel errors usually mean you're missing a dependency in my experience, like the curses library. running the command independently might give you a more informative error message
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2021-05-16T01:52:50Z dieggsy: if i'm live coding a web app with hunchentoot, what's the easiest way (is there a way?) to reload the page in browser from lisp?
2021-05-16T01:53:09Z dieggsy: the workflow of make a change, switch to browser, manually reload, switch back to emacs is a bit jarring
2021-05-16T01:53:13Z dieggsy: er, disruptive idk
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2021-05-16T01:57:17Z waleee-cl: dieggsy:  if you're ok with an pre-release experience, nyxt can be controlled from emacs
2021-05-16T01:57:18Z pjb: (uiop:run-program (format nil "firefox -remote 'openURL(~A)'" url)) ; in about:config set "browser.link.open_newwindow.override.external" to 1
2021-05-16T01:57:29Z pjb: dieggsy: ^
2021-05-16T01:58:43Z pjb: dieggsy: or (uiop:run-program (format nil "open -a Safari ~A" url)) on macOS.
2021-05-16T01:58:54Z pjb: s/~A/~S/
2021-05-16T01:59:49Z dieggsy: pjb: hmm, e.g. firefox -remote 'openURL(google.com)' seems to do nothing for me
2021-05-16T02:00:03Z pjb: It's really a shame uiop:run-program doesn't take a separate :arguments list.  ccl and clisp gave good hints about that!
2021-05-16T02:00:12Z pjb: google.com is not an URL.
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2021-05-16T02:01:05Z pjb: the scheme is mandatory: URI = scheme:[//authority]path[?query][#fragment]
2021-05-16T02:01:23Z pjb: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/URL
2021-05-16T02:01:47Z dieggsy: pjb: hah, i appreciate pedantry as much as the next guy, but at least in the gui firefox doesn't require the scheme, but sure, let's rephrase e.g. firefox -remote 'openURL(http://google.com)' does nothing for me
2021-05-16T02:02:25Z pjb: It has always worked for me when I used linux…
2021-05-16T02:04:15Z dieggsy: when was this? do you know what firefox version it was?
2021-05-16T02:07:09Z dieggsy: pjb: lol https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1080319
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2021-05-16T02:13:52Z waleee-cl: dieggsy:  what if you remove "-remote openURL(..." bit?
2021-05-16T02:14:48Z dieggsy: waleee-cl: sure, you can open a new page from the command line
2021-05-16T02:14:50Z waleee-cl: one of the annoying bits about firefox and chromium is that they usually re-use an already running instance
2021-05-16T02:15:02Z dieggsy: but that's just spawning a new window as opposed to refreshing
2021-05-16T02:15:29Z waleee-cl: wouldn't the -remote option also do that?
2021-05-16T02:15:34Z dieggsy: waleee-cl: oh shit wait...
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2021-05-16T02:15:56Z dieggsy: waleee-cl: sweet, that actually runs in the active tab
2021-05-16T02:16:13Z dieggsy: i had just assumed it would open a new window/tab. thanks, i'm an idiot
2021-05-16T02:16:31Z dieggsy: i guess i've never run firefox [url] while already having an instance open before...
2021-05-16T02:16:41Z waleee-cl: :)
2021-05-16T02:17:15Z dieggsy: oof, that also steals focus though
2021-05-16T02:17:19Z dieggsy: i'll get over it lol
2021-05-16T02:18:00Z waleee-cl: tridactyl and other vim-based browser can open tabs in the background, so there must be a way to do it
2021-05-16T02:18:55Z waleee-cl: s/broser/extensions/
2021-05-16T02:19:04Z dieggsy: right, but the actual firefox application is already focused in that case
2021-05-16T02:19:29Z dieggsy: what i meant was steals focus across programs, so i'm no longer typing in emacs lol
2021-05-16T02:19:56Z waleee-cl: ah, right. That is annoying
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2021-05-16T02:21:20Z waleee-cl: but an issue with your window manager
2021-05-16T02:22:53Z dieggsy: yeah that's fair
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2021-05-16T02:24:58Z p_l: dieggsy: you can try using one of the ways of embedding a web browser in emacs
2021-05-16T02:26:12Z dieggsy: true
2021-05-16T02:26:27Z dieggsy: been a while since i checked out the state of the xwidget browser
2021-05-16T02:26:32Z dieggsy: wonder if it's been improved at all
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2021-05-16T02:30:22Z p_l: when I checked last year, the main issue was keybindings, and I didn't have time to resolve that
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2021-05-16T02:39:36Z waleee-cl: dieggsy:  lol https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/issues/673
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2021-05-16T02:40:31Z waleee-cl: some people think it's  a bug if an application doesn't do focus stealing
2021-05-16T02:41:45Z dieggsy: hah
2021-05-16T02:42:06Z dieggsy: i don't always use a full blown DE,. but when i do.. it's not usually gnome
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2021-05-16T03:05:34Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-05-16T03:36:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: Good morning, beach!
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2021-05-16T03:41:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: beach: I thinking going all-capability is a good idea, especially for the filesystem/object-store
2021-05-16T03:42:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: It removes a class of bugs where an unprivileged system tricks a priviliged system into using the wrong permissions
2021-05-16T03:43:45Z harovali`: pjb: thanks (asdf:oos ... worked fine. Also after meeting the missing dependency
2021-05-16T03:43:45Z beach: I don't see how that could happen.
2021-05-16T03:45:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: The classic example is sending a request to a webserver like http://example.com/../secret.txt
2021-05-16T03:46:12Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: I'm lost.
2021-05-16T03:48:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's this problem: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confused_deputy_problem#Example
2021-05-16T03:49:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: If the permissions are not part of the pointers to objects, you can have an issue where the pointer's permissions are interepreted differently by different parts of the system
2021-05-16T03:50:15Z beach: OK, I can't understand how this example applies.  I think I need a lot more time to digest the information.
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2021-05-16T03:54:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: This means (assuming a system with privileged and unprivileged parts) that every time an unprivileged part A communicates with a privileged part B and then receives a response, B has to have logic to determine whether A has permission to receive the response.
2021-05-16T03:55:47Z beach: You see, I don't even know what it means for a "system" to have privileges.
2021-05-16T03:56:19Z beach: I haven't thought things through for CLOSOS, but in Multics, systems don't have privileges; people do.
2021-05-16T03:56:27Z beach: ... contrary to Unix.
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2021-05-16T03:59:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think you can put this in terms of environments, no? A system has a "privilege" to access any object referenced in its global environment, and all the other objects that can be produced by calling some accessible function on htose objects
2021-05-16T04:00:47Z beach: That is not how I have ever thought about privileges, which is why I am totally confused.
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2021-05-16T04:27:02Z pjb: beach: how does the multics system know what person give it a command?  What if it's a secretary tha gives a command dictated by the boss?
2021-05-16T04:28:49Z pjb: (both in the case of multics and unix, there's a computer system object that represents the user to manage its priviledges; unfortunately, computers are not smart enough to validate or check that a real alive human being and who he is, is giving it the commands).
2021-05-16T04:43:45Z Nilby: Multics is very cool in many ways, with rings, gates and all, but it's security model might be a bit dated, even if it's certainly better than unix. I'm pretty sure multics had a system call between you opening a file, that told the "operator" to take a tape off the rack on put it on a tape drive. And the open internet was decades away.
2021-05-16T04:45:10Z contrapunctus: beach: good morning. Please have a look ^^ http://ix.io/3mUw
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2021-05-16T04:54:59Z beach: Give me a few minutes...
2021-05-16T05:00:44Z beach: contrapunctus: Thanks.  It is going to take me a long time, because I don't have a tools that can diff the markdown and the html.  So I think I need to read it word by word and compare.
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2021-05-16T05:03:06Z beach: pjb: Programs in Multics refer to objects in the object store (i.e., segments in the segment hierarchy on Multics) symbolically.  When a reference to such an object is hit, the dynamic linker is invoked to "snap the link".  What the linker does it so check the ACLs in the "object store" and compare them to the user and group executing the code.  This comparison results in a capability that has restricted access according to the ACL.
2021-05-16T05:03:51Z beach: The operation is then re-tried on the capability.
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2021-05-16T05:05:33Z beach: So all the objects that a program can refer to are capabilities that have been created by the dynamic linker, so the access privilege is based on the user and the group executing the operation.  Not on some concept of a system having the privilege.
2021-05-16T05:06:10Z beach: pjb: Does that make sense.
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2021-05-16T05:13:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: can programs refer to objects they can't access? and pass those references to other programs?
2021-05-16T05:14:49Z beach: I believe so, yes.  But the programs that those objects are passed on to, also execute as the same user and group as the caller.
2021-05-16T05:15:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, there's no way to pass an object to a program running as a different user or group?
2021-05-16T05:15:41Z beach: I think that's true.
2021-05-16T05:16:07Z beach: Multics still had a very limited address space.
2021-05-16T05:16:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: I guess that wouldn't have the problem I'm thinking of
2021-05-16T05:16:19Z beach: So pointers were per-process just as with Unix.
2021-05-16T05:16:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: The issue I'm thinking of occurs when two programs communicate and they're executing as different users or groups
2021-05-16T05:17:31Z beach: I am thinking that this is a fundamental difference between Multics and Unix.  In Multics, users+groups have privileges.  In Unix, programs do too.
2021-05-16T05:17:42Z beach: Yes, I understand.
2021-05-16T05:17:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: program A constructs a reference it can't access (/home/otheruser/secret) and asks B to do something with it. B does something with the path and passes information back to A
2021-05-16T05:18:53Z beach: Well, in Unix, the capability is the file descriptor and it is not valid across processes.
2021-05-16T05:19:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: That's only sort of true: using unix sockets, one program can push a file descriptor to another
2021-05-16T05:19:55Z beach: Oh wow!  And the kernel translates it so that it refers to the same object in the new process?
2021-05-16T05:20:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah
2021-05-16T05:20:38Z beach: That sounds dangerous.
2021-05-16T05:20:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's actually safer
2021-05-16T05:20:58Z beach: It is certainly a very different model from what I have been thinking about so far.
2021-05-16T05:21:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: If I push a file descriptor, my permissions are attached to the file descriptor already
2021-05-16T05:21:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, if the other program tries to use that file descriptor to read information I don't have access to, it'll get an error
2021-05-16T05:21:43Z beach: I see.
2021-05-16T05:22:43Z beach: Well, that would be similar in CLOSOS, I *think*, because a capability would be a pointer with some access bits, and pointers would be valid everywhere.
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2021-05-16T05:23:47Z beach: So one program would "snap the link" and get a capability that it can then hand over to some other program.  The caller's privilege on the object will be reflected in the capability.
2021-05-16T05:24:09Z pjb: beach: it make sense. But it's similar to unix. the access rights of unix objects are some crude a simple capabilities associated to the user ID and group ID (and others).
2021-05-16T05:24:45Z beach: pjb: Yes, I know.  Unix was meant to be an "implementable subset of Multics".
2021-05-16T05:25:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: beach: yeah, my thought is that you don't need ACLs at all
2021-05-16T05:25:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: At least, not in the way I usually think of them
2021-05-16T05:26:11Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: That's the part I don't understand.  If I want to put an object in the object store, and I don't have ACLs, what kind of capability do I give it?
2021-05-16T05:27:31Z beach: It seems to me that I would then be forced to give the same access rights to everybody on the system.
2021-05-16T05:27:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: Couldn't you give it a "directory" object and the capability to add directory entries?
2021-05-16T05:27:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: Or whatever makes sense for the store layout in question?
2021-05-16T05:28:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: I guess the capability in sense would just be a pointer to some root object
2021-05-16T05:28:28Z beach: I don't know what a "directory" is, nor a "store layout".
2021-05-16T05:28:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: + permissions to associate new objects to that root
2021-05-16T05:29:43Z beach: Nor a "root".
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2021-05-16T05:31:45Z pjb: You can also play the directory game in unix.  Instead of letting everybody access /{bin,usr/bin,…} you can setup /home/$USER/bin/… and prevent users to access anying outside of their /home/$USER.
2021-05-16T05:31:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: The idea is just that the first program that runs has full access to the object store. When it runs another program, it lets that program access the object store by passing an object to it and the capability of executing certain functions that associate other objects to it in the object store
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2021-05-16T05:32:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: Any object not associated with that object is transient and GCed when the program exits
2021-05-16T05:33:06Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: capability based systems work too, indeed.  It's only that this may require more work to build those directories. But I guess once it's done automatically, it can be as easy to use as unix.
2021-05-16T05:33:53Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: So if I create an object, how do I tell this "first program" that I want bill and joe to be able to read and write it, but everyone else just read?
2021-05-16T05:33:53Z pjb: It's clear that this would avoid the PATH=.:… problems.
2021-05-16T05:34:33Z beach: I guess I need to go study how capability-only systems work in more detail.
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2021-05-16T05:34:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: beach: that's why I said "not in the way I usually think of them"
2021-05-16T05:34:57Z beach: I see.
2021-05-16T05:35:11Z pjb: system.addCapabilityTo(system.findUser("joe"),newObject.{read}); system.addCapabilityTo(system.findUser("bill"),{newObject.{read,increment});
2021-05-16T05:35:29Z moon-child: findUser sure looks a lot like an 'open' call
2021-05-16T05:35:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: There needs to be a similar concept when a program is first executed, but the whole idea is to prevent programs from creating pointers the user cannot access.
2021-05-16T05:35:52Z beach: pjb: So every object in the system would be stored in some place associated with each user in the system?  That sounds pretty bad.
2021-05-16T05:35:53Z pjb: it's a capability that you must have on the system.
2021-05-16T05:35:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: that is, pointers to objects that the user cannot acess
2021-05-16T05:36:32Z pjb: beach: capability management is finer grained than unix access right, that's for sure.
2021-05-16T05:36:44Z moon-child: pjb: and how do 'you' get that capability?  You still need to bootstrap access to something, somehow
2021-05-16T05:36:47Z beach: pjb: And what if I want to give access to every user in the ADMIN group, even though not all users in that group have been created yet?
2021-05-16T05:36:58Z pjb: beach: finer, and more explicit. But that's the point, and this is what help security.
2021-05-16T05:37:08Z pjb: moon-child: somebody needs to give it to you.
2021-05-16T05:37:18Z beach: Do I have to go through every object I ever created whenever a new user is created?
2021-05-16T05:37:36Z loli: don't capability style systems just boil down to lattice structures?
2021-05-16T05:37:49Z pjb: moon-child: there's a system generation phase (kind of compilation-time for the system) where those root capabilities are assigned to some root object that can then distribute them.
2021-05-16T05:38:14Z pjb: beach: basically yes.  But there are objects whose job is to automatize that.
2021-05-16T05:38:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: You only have to go through the roots of trust
2021-05-16T05:39:00Z beach: I think I won't be able to understand the ideas here until I read up on capability-only systems.
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2021-05-16T05:39:16Z pjb: perhaps it would be worth running a capability based system to see how that works.
2021-05-16T05:39:17Z Nilby: I like capability systems. My ideal capability system is: "Can anyone run a program on my computer? No, They can't."
2021-05-16T05:39:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: If a program has access to a particular set of objects and a particular set of functions, it can also access any objects producible by calling some sequence of functions with some combination of the objects
2021-05-16T05:39:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's a bit like GC roots and the reachable set
2021-05-16T05:40:47Z pjb: beach:  but if you remember multics, on unix when you compile a program, with default UMASK 022, it gets access rights 755 so it's executable by any user that has access to a path to the new program.  On multics, cics and other systems of that time, once you had a program compiled, you didn't have anything.  You would have to write JCL or use command installation commands to make this program accessible to users as a command.
2021-05-16T05:41:01Z pjb: beach: capability based system require the same administration steps.
2021-05-16T05:42:12Z pjb: Or I guess we could write a (virtual) capability system in lisp, to explore those questions and the user interfaces that are required.
2021-05-16T05:42:37Z beach: I will definitely take the time to read up on capability-only systems.  If the security model is simpler or safer, I should understand it better.
2021-05-16T05:42:47Z pjb: There seem to be a new capability based OS: Genode OS: https://rudd-o.com/linux-and-free-software/genode-os-a-breath-of-fresh-air-in-operating-system-and-software-security
2021-05-16T05:45:29Z Nilby: Capability systems seem simpler to understand for users, and simpler to administer, but you still have the problem you have now on phones, where programs can be coercive and demand "give me all these capabilities or I won't even run".
2021-05-16T05:46:41Z beach: Nilby: You seem to be using the word "capability" in a way I don't recognize.
2021-05-16T05:47:25Z beach: I only know the use as "a reference to some object that includes an indication of the kind of access to it that is permitted".
2021-05-16T05:48:15Z beach: So in "give me *this* capability", I don't know what nature *this* would be.
2021-05-16T05:48:28Z beach: It seems it would already have to be a capability.
2021-05-16T05:49:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: Fuchsia too
2021-05-16T05:50:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: (The Fuchsia OS is another new OS based on object capability principles)
2021-05-16T05:51:05Z lukego: splittist, fiddlerwoaroof: I optimized ACCEPT quite a lot in CLIME. It was getting really slow when I had 50K acceptable presentations in Emacs at the same time. Turned out to just be a dumb data structure i.e. the set of acceptable presentations needed to be converted from a list to a hashtable. Emacs profiler is good!
2021-05-16T05:51:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: lukego: cool
2021-05-16T05:51:24Z Nilby: I think of it more like the name of thing that can be done with an object, e.g. "take a picture on the camer"", so in language terms, more like a method combination.
2021-05-16T05:51:47Z Nilby: *camera
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2021-05-16T05:51:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: Nilby: I think there's just two different meanings for the word going on here
2021-05-16T05:51:59Z beach: Nilby: But that's not how it is used in the literature.
2021-05-16T05:52:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: capability-based security uses a very specific definition of the term
2021-05-16T05:52:58Z splittist: lukego: yay! Next up - creating an emacs-pane
2021-05-16T05:53:14Z lukego: what's an emacs-pane exactly?
2021-05-16T05:53:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm waiting for Climacs to be embedded in emacs
2021-05-16T05:53:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: :)
2021-05-16T05:53:19Z Nilby: Sorry. Just ignore me.
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2021-05-16T05:53:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is Nilby a lisp program?
2021-05-16T05:54:20Z nij: https://github.com/nilby/cl-nilby
2021-05-16T05:54:29Z nij: Bad joke. Sorry..
2021-05-16T05:54:47Z lukego: splittist: btw I think that I gave you commit bits but just do whatever you like e.g. PRs etc. I just don't have my github notifications working very well atm so often miss things for a couple of days before polling
2021-05-16T05:55:59Z splittist: lukego: I haven't done anything recently. I need my other projects to catch up to where I'm really using clime, to see what needs adding. Panes are the substrate for gadgets, I think.
2021-05-16T05:56:12Z lukego: I think maybe next up for me will be trying to do really nice client-side zooming. for CAD stuff I think that I need to be able to easily make presentations scale to fit the available space & be able to zoom in up to about 20x mag
2021-05-16T05:57:12Z lukego: one other random feature I'd like is a (with-output-to-emacs (s :pane :foo :if-exists :overwrite) ...) so that Lisp could assign names to the images and have the option to update them in place
2021-05-16T05:57:43Z lukego: splittist: yeah same here
2021-05-16T05:59:07Z lukego: though the zooming is a pain point now because I'm constantly tweaking (with-scaling ...) to try and see what I need. I think that Emacs image support will make it easy e.g. already supports a fit-width/fit-height/fit-window kind of scaling option and we could hack the "viewBox=..." attribute to crop the region of interest
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2021-05-16T05:59:38Z lukego: but it helps a lot to be able to copy&paste presentations now e.g. because I can do a really big one, put it into a buffer on the side, and not worry about it scrolling off screen in the repl
2021-05-16T06:02:00Z splittist: If you had the raw svg in the emacs-side object, you could just add a scaling transform and re-render.
2021-05-16T06:02:19Z splittist: (Or have a 'Open in Inkscape' option ... )
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2021-05-16T06:13:36Z lukego: Good ideas :)
2021-05-16T06:14:04Z lukego: Have to think about that Inkscape one in particular. Then I guess I'd want to embed metadata into the SVG about the presentations
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2021-05-16T06:17:14Z lukego: and that's probably easy to do actually straight on the lisp side
2021-05-16T06:18:16Z lukego: I need to understand if the Emacs image scaling attributes are usable - or maybe better to just always hack the SVG and rerender. Experimentation suggests that Emacs "zoom in" commands on images are raster based i.e. they render the SVG into a bitmap and then scale that into a pixelated blarg
2021-05-16T06:22:15Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: In a capability-based system, how does a user refer to an object in order to obtain a capability?  Do objects have names?  If so, who determines tha name?  Does every user refer to some object using the same name?
2021-05-16T06:24:23Z lukego: splittist: I'm not ready to think about this yet but besides Inkscape another interesting option could be to open the SVG in a browser and accept callbacks from Javascript. Maybe this could even be driven by Emacs with the browser doing the job of (insert-image (create-image ...)) only.
2021-05-16T06:25:21Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: Actually, forget about it.  I think I will just go think about how it might be done.  I suspect the literature excludes the mechanics of of assigning privileges to people and groups of people.
2021-05-16T06:25:48Z phoe: hello
2021-05-16T06:26:02Z beach: Hey phoe.
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2021-05-16T06:27:24Z phoe: beach: AFAIK a capability is just an object that contains 1) an indirection to some other object, 2) some state - simplest state is "on/off", a boolean
2021-05-16T06:27:49Z phoe: and the trick is that you are not allowed to operateon the object directly, you must use the capability object instead
2021-05-16T06:27:51Z beach: That's the third definition of capability today.
2021-05-16T06:28:09Z contrapunctus: https://upload.jabberfr.org/LrcIlfy6FlzycS6b/updating-the-standard.html
2021-05-16T06:28:11Z phoe: and the capability object must be in its "on" state in order for the action to be performable and performed
2021-05-16T06:28:11Z beach: And the second one that does not correspond to the use in the literature.
2021-05-16T06:28:41Z contrapunctus: beach: ^ generated HTML with indentation and whitespace resembling yours, hopefully easier to diff.
2021-05-16T06:28:41Z beach: Plus, that's not what I am asking.  I am asking about the mechanics of assigning privileges.
2021-05-16T06:28:47Z beach: contrapunctus: Thanks!
2021-05-16T06:29:01Z phoe: if something in the system turned the object "off", then the action that the capability was created for doesn't happen
2021-05-16T06:29:10Z beach: *sigh*
2021-05-16T06:29:17Z phoe: okay, I'll shut up
2021-05-16T06:32:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: beach: wouldn't one way just be to have a "user" object?
2021-05-16T06:32:52Z beach: What I am asking is this:  Suppose I created an object, and I want every system administrator to be able to modify it, but everyone else can just read it.  What do I do for that to happen, and what do I write in the email to everyone?  "Hi, I just wanted to let you know that you can now do ... to a access my new object."
2021-05-16T06:33:29Z beach: What is "...", and what did I do in order for "..." to be the way to access the object?
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2021-05-16T06:33:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: One way would be to have an object representing the "admin" group with write-enabled pointers to the resources
2021-05-16T06:34:11Z beach: OK, and how do I "name" it?
2021-05-16T06:34:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: And then you just iterate across the objects representing administrators and associate them with the admin group
2021-05-16T06:34:26Z beach: Hold on...
2021-05-16T06:34:38Z beach: There might be administrators that aren't in the system yet.
2021-05-16T06:34:48Z beach: So there must be a representation for the group as such.
2021-05-16T06:35:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, #<user object> -> #<admin group object> -> #<resource>
2021-05-16T06:35:26Z beach: And I still don't know what "..." is.  Maybe "Object number 234 in your list of objects you can access"?
2021-05-16T06:35:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: Then #<new user object> -> #<admin group object>
2021-05-16T06:36:28Z beach: Or "object named <some-name>"?  How do I prevent myself from removing an existing object with <some-name>"
2021-05-16T06:36:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: Whoever can create new user objects can create the link between the new user and the existing group objects
2021-05-16T06:36:53Z beach: That part is fine.
2021-05-16T06:36:59Z beach: But I don't know what "..." is.
2021-05-16T06:37:22Z beach: What instructions do I write in my email for users to access my object?
2021-05-16T06:37:38Z beach: And how did I make those instructions work?
2021-05-16T06:37:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: Oh, I see, that would depend on the protocols for the object in question, right?
2021-05-16T06:38:25Z beach: The object has to be named in some way.  Either, "Bill, it's your object number 234.  Joe, yours is object number 34534534...."
2021-05-16T06:38:37Z beach: Or it must have some name that is the same for everyone.
2021-05-16T06:38:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: Why?
2021-05-16T06:39:08Z beach: Should I just put the capability in my email?
2021-05-16T06:39:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: I see, let me think about it :)
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2021-05-16T06:40:05Z beach: Or, "Hey everyone.  I just created an object that you can use if you like, but this system doesn't allow me to give you instructions how to find it, so you just have to scan the entire object database".
2021-05-16T06:40:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: It seems to me that the protocol for accessing a new resource depends on the type of resource, though
2021-05-16T06:41:43Z beach: Sure.  "And you can access the new object using a protocol consisting of functions that are somewhere in the system, but since I can't name them, you need to scan the entire object database"
2021-05-16T06:43:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: The functions would be named by updating a user's environment somehow
2021-05-16T06:44:27Z beach: So me, as the author of an object, would modify the environments of all users who are allowed to access my object?
2021-05-16T06:45:09Z beach: "Hey bill, I put a pointer to my new email program in your environment, and I called it 'hello'.  Sorry if you already had an object by that name."
2021-05-16T06:46:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: It seems to me that that problem could be solved by some sort of hierarchy among environments
2021-05-16T06:47:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: Or by coming up with a way to embed the pointer itself in the email
2021-05-16T06:47:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: And letting the recipient name it
2021-05-16T06:47:40Z beach: I specifically do not want hierarchies.  The main idea of the object store is that it can be searched by giving a bunch of attributes, like object type, modification date, creator etc.
2021-05-16T06:48:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: As a general principle, the idea of capabilities is to grant access by passing objects around rather than names
2021-05-16T06:48:31Z beach: Yes, that part I understand.
2021-05-16T06:49:08Z beach: What I don't understand is what my choices are for storing objects in a "database" that can be searched.
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2021-05-16T06:50:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: Every user would have some sort of object graph that's reachable from some "root set"
2021-05-16T06:50:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: And that object graph would be the database
2021-05-16T06:50:30Z beach: And it would be per-user?
2021-05-16T06:50:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: The edges might be
2021-05-16T06:50:47Z beach: OK, thanks.
2021-05-16T06:50:52Z beach: I'll give it some more thought.
2021-05-16T06:51:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think you'd probably also want to have at least one object in the root set that represents the user
2021-05-16T06:51:51Z beach: Sure.  What I absolutely wanted to get away from is the concept of a "path", because it imposes an order that is usually not relevant.
2021-05-16T06:51:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: The email question has the issue of figuring out distributed identity
2021-05-16T06:52:34Z beach: Like in /home/beach/Lisp/Papers/gc.pdf and /home/beach/Papers/Lisp/gc.pdf.
2021-05-16T06:53:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah
2021-05-16T06:53:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: The hierarchy I was thinking about above was more like the way that lexical scopes nest
2021-05-16T06:53:43Z beach: Hmm.
2021-05-16T06:53:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: The user's environment might have a "parent" that could be modified by an arbitrary number of other users
2021-05-16T06:54:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, if the user has any names in ther user's own environment, they take precedence
2021-05-16T06:54:21Z beach: I think I see.
2021-05-16T06:55:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: we already do something like this on Unix with the PATH enviroment variable
2021-05-16T06:56:03Z beach: So to get away from paths and unique names, I imagined that every object in the object database would have a set of intrinsic attributes like the type of the object (video, PDF) and a bunch of assigned attributes like "programing-language=Lisp", etc.
2021-05-16T06:57:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: That makes sense
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2021-05-16T07:00:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: I would think you'd want to have some notion of an edge between objects, though
2021-05-16T07:00:36Z moon-child: you can create trees on-demand if you like, based on the tags and tag categories
2021-05-16T07:00:53Z moon-child: I don't think there's a compelling reason to have them be an intrinsic part of the system
2021-05-16T07:01:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: And, at that point, I'm not sure if programming-language=Lisp is better modeled as an attribute or as an edge between a Lisp node and another object
2021-05-16T07:01:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm not talking about trees
2021-05-16T07:02:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: Objects naturally form a graph, I think
2021-05-16T07:03:14Z moon-child: why is the graph representation better than the flat attribute-based one?  'naturally' isn't really an argument
2021-05-16T07:03:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: What I mean is that an object almost always contains pointers to other objects
2021-05-16T07:04:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, if you have objects, you have a graph
2021-05-16T07:05:35Z moon-child: ok, yes.  But we're not talking about objects in general, but about an object store, which is a specific type of object with a specific structure.  So why is this the most suitable representation for that particular structure?
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2021-05-16T07:06:19Z moon-child: to give an example, relational databases are a very successful paradigm for a data store, and they are flat
2021-05-16T07:06:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: That's not really true
2021-05-16T07:07:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: The on-disk format their is an implementation detail
2021-05-16T07:07:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: The conceptual model involves things like foreign keys
2021-05-16T07:09:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: Although, I realize now I may have been misunderstanding beach's use of "object store"
2021-05-16T07:10:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: I was assuming he was talking about something like orthogonal persistence
2021-05-16T07:11:36Z moon-child: I think there is a meaningful extent to which databases are flatter than, say, file systems; or an object graph in a lisp program.  But I see your point
2021-05-16T07:13:14Z moon-child: my understanding of 'object store' is that it is the name of the solution to 'you can now do ... to a access my new object', and that persistence was orthogonal
2021-05-16T07:15:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I was assuming an enviroment more like a Smalltalk image
2021-05-16T07:17:42Z beach: Yes, I think moon-child has the right idea of how I imagined the object store.
2021-05-16T07:17:52Z beach: It certainly has nothing to do with persistence.
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2021-05-16T07:18:40Z beach: "Give me a list of all the PDF files in the system that are at least 100kbytes large". Stuff like that.
2021-05-16T07:19:01Z beach: "Give my all the Lisp files in the system that are part of library A or library B.
2021-05-16T07:19:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, what is returned? a bag of bytes? or #<pdf-object "foo" #x11112222>
2021-05-16T07:19:48Z beach: A list of pointers (capabilities) to objects.
2021-05-16T07:20:19Z beach: I said PDF "files".  I mean PDF "objects".
2021-05-16T07:20:37Z beach: I will then create my own temporary "directory" from those objects if that is the best way to work on them later.
2021-05-16T07:20:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: Why have the distinction there between pointers and objects?
2021-05-16T07:21:28Z beach: There is no such distinction.  I imagine "reference semantics" like Lisp.
2021-05-16T07:22:07Z beach: So the latter.
2021-05-16T07:22:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: ok, then I don't see how the store isn't a graph
2021-05-16T07:22:22Z beach: It is a flat list.
2021-05-16T07:22:36Z beach: So a special case of a graph, of course.
2021-05-16T07:22:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: Can you have, for example, a documentation object in the store that maintains a reference to the function it documents?
2021-05-16T07:23:28Z beach: That would certainly be a possibility, if the object was created that way.
2021-05-16T07:23:42Z beach: But the function would not be searched in the query.
2021-05-16T07:24:00Z beach: ... unless it was independently added to the object store.
2021-05-16T07:24:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: I was thinking that, conceptually, the way you'd collect search results is by walking the graph
2021-05-16T07:24:52Z beach: Objects are not automatically present in the object store.  When I type 34234 or (cons 3 4) those objects are not in the object store.
2021-05-16T07:25:22Z beach: That is not how I see it.
2021-05-16T07:25:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, if I add a documentation object that references a function object, I have to persist the function when I add the documentation object to the store, right?
2021-05-16T07:25:48Z beach: I see an object being explicitly added to the object store, possibly with some assigned attributes.
2021-05-16T07:26:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: Otherwise, when the documentation object is retrieved later, you'd have a dangling reference
2021-05-16T07:26:05Z beach: "persist"?
2021-05-16T07:26:16Z beach: There is universal persistence.
2021-05-16T07:27:09Z beach: The object store has nothing to do with persistence.  Every accessible object is automatically persistent.
2021-05-16T07:27:46Z jackdaniel: in (correct) capability systems capabilities are separate from objects too
2021-05-16T07:27:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, I guess I'm confused why you'd have an object store
2021-05-16T07:28:07Z jackdaniel: otherwise you could conceal a capability in an object available to the "less" capable operator
2021-05-16T07:28:36Z beach: The object store is just a list of objects, each one with some associated attributes.  The purpose is for search.  Nothing else.
2021-05-16T07:29:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: That clears up a lot of confusions I had :)
2021-05-16T07:31:47Z beach: Ah, OK.
2021-05-16T07:32:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: I was thinking things like "who calls this function" would be answered by the object store
2021-05-16T07:33:03Z beach: I don't think so.  The object store would answer questions like "Give me a list of all LaTeX files that are part of the Trucler library"
2021-05-16T07:33:33Z beach: I said "files" again.  Sorry.
2021-05-16T07:33:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: I see that now, although I wonder if it'd be better to treat the object store as an optimization
2021-05-16T07:33:47Z beach: I don't think so.  The object store would answer questions like "Give me a list of all LaTeX document objects that are part of the Trucler library"
2021-05-16T07:34:03Z beach: What would it optimize?
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2021-05-16T07:35:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: If you already have a "trucler" project object with references to latex objects, lisp code objects, package objects, etc. the object store starts to seem superfluous, except as a sort of index.
2021-05-16T07:36:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: Because you could answer the same questions by walking the graph
2021-05-16T07:36:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: Starting at some designated sets of root objects
2021-05-16T07:37:46Z beach: Yes, but I would then have to have a lot of those "directory objects".  There would be one such object that has all the PDF documents in the system that were created last month.  Another that contains all the PDF documents that were created last week, etc.
2021-05-16T07:38:10Z beach: I want the ability to create those directory objects dynamically according to the way I want to work at the moment.
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2021-05-16T07:38:49Z beach: If I want to be able to search in all possible ways, the "graph" becomes meaningless and artificial.
2021-05-16T07:39:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think we might be talking about different things here
2021-05-16T07:39:36Z beach: That's entirely possible.
2021-05-16T07:41:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: If I take one tag like project=Trucler, I can either store that bit of information as a tag on every object in the object store, or I can create a "project" tag objects with links
2021-05-16T07:42:01Z moon-child: beach: out of curiosity, do you envision a query language that can perform optimizations based on indices and such?  (filter (lambda (x) (eq (slot-value x 'programming-language) 'lisp)) *all-objects*) doesn't scale very well
2021-05-16T07:42:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: then I do the same thing for "PDF"
2021-05-16T07:42:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: (a) this saves space because each unique tag value is stored once
2021-05-16T07:43:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: (b) you're already going to be doing something like this if you have universal persistence
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2021-05-16T07:44:14Z moon-child: 'already going to be doing something like this' why?
2021-05-16T07:44:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: Well, in the case of lisp code, you'll have the package system with references to symbols
2021-05-16T07:45:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: As well as the various environments used to resolve those symbols
2021-05-16T07:45:24Z moon-child: having a given tag is orthogonal with being in a given environment
2021-05-16T07:45:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: And all the code will be present both inside the function objects and in the objects in the object store
2021-05-16T07:45:47Z moon-child: if it were not, then you would effectively be forcing a hierarchical architecture
2021-05-16T07:46:01Z moon-child: which means assuming some hierarchy to be canonical; this is not what we want
2021-05-16T07:46:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: You can't avoid that with a function object
2021-05-16T07:46:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: The free variables in the function object all have to resolve to something
2021-05-16T07:47:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: sorry, free names (whether variables, functions, classes, etc)
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2021-05-16T07:47:48Z moon-child: sure.  So the function objects allow us one way to organize objects, and the object store enables another way of organizing objects, which wouldn't otherwise be possible.  What's wrong with that?
2021-05-16T07:48:17Z phoe: is there any part of the specification that explicitly states that for any (setf (foo ...) newval), the value of (foo ...) retrieved right afterwards must be EQL to NEWVAL?
2021-05-16T07:48:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs setf
2021-05-16T07:48:34Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_setf_.htm
2021-05-16T07:48:57Z phoe: I can't see any mention of it in clhs 5.1 or in that setf page
2021-05-16T07:49:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've seen it mentioned somewhere
2021-05-16T07:49:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: I just needed a starting page so I could search for the text I remembered :)
2021-05-16T07:51:01Z phoe: OK
2021-05-16T07:51:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs 5.1.1.2
2021-05-16T07:51:02Z specbot: Setf Expansions: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/05_aab.htm
2021-05-16T07:51:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think the section "Storing form" here says that?
2021-05-16T07:51:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: > a form which can reference both the temporary and the store variables, and which changes the value of the place and guarantees to return as its values the values of the store variables, which are the correct values for setf to return.
2021-05-16T07:52:16Z phoe: hmmm
2021-05-16T07:52:29Z phoe: "changes the value of the place" is weaker than EQL
2021-05-16T07:52:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: Also "the ultimate result of evaluating setf is the value or values being stored"
2021-05-16T07:52:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs 5.1.1
2021-05-16T07:52:33Z specbot: Overview of Places and Generalized Reference: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/05_aa.htm
2021-05-16T07:52:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: end of second paragraph
2021-05-16T07:52:46Z phoe: yes, I see this
2021-05-16T07:53:11Z beach: moon-child: I haven't given any thought to optimizing, but my hunch is that the space on a system is mainly taken up by binary stuff like sound, pictures, videos, etc.  The object store will easily fit in main memory, so it should not take to long to scan it all.  But sure, optimizations are good.
2021-05-16T07:53:34Z phoe: my question is whether the value that is stored must be EQL to the value that was passed into setf, and the bits of the spec you mentioned do not seem to guarantee that
2021-05-16T07:53:48Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: Sure, tags may not be strings.
2021-05-16T07:54:11Z phoe: which means that e.g. (setf (foo) #1="bar") can e.g. make a copy of #1# that will be EQUAL but not EQL
2021-05-16T07:54:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't think that's possible in general
2021-05-16T07:54:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: (setf foo (make-instance 'bar)) can't know how to clone an arbitrary instance
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2021-05-16T07:55:02Z phoe: in general, yes
2021-05-16T07:55:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, the only possible conforming implementation is to return the value passed in
2021-05-16T07:55:14Z phoe: hey wait
2021-05-16T07:55:20Z phoe: I meant (setf (foo) ...)
2021-05-16T07:55:26Z phoe: where SETF FOO can have an arbitrary expander
2021-05-16T07:56:06Z phoe: my question is whether (let ((thing ...)) (setf (foo) thing) (eql (foo) thing)) needs to return T in all cases
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2021-05-16T07:56:24Z phoe: or whether it's allowed not to do that
2021-05-16T07:56:40Z beach: phoe: I don't think it can be since the user can write "incorrect" SETF functions.
2021-05-16T07:56:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: Are those function conforming, though?
2021-05-16T07:57:03Z phoe: beach: what do you mean by "incorrect"?
2021-05-16T07:57:37Z beach: phoe: Not making the object available to subsequent reads.
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2021-05-16T07:58:09Z phoe: beach: this is exactly my question, must "the object" be EQL to the value that was written?
2021-05-16T07:58:32Z phoe: or can it be different?
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2021-05-16T07:58:44Z beach: Yes, I understand.
2021-05-16T07:58:53Z beach: Anyway, I'm out of here for a while.  I really need to get some work done today.
2021-05-16T07:59:07Z phoe: like, imagine that SETF FOO sends a network message that is meant to set some variable in another Lisp image
2021-05-16T07:59:29Z phoe: and calling (foo) sends another message that retrieves the value of that variable
2021-05-16T07:59:34Z phoe: a string, for simplicity
2021-05-16T07:59:51Z phoe: this is likely going to be EQUAL but not EQL
2021-05-16T08:00:05Z phoe: do the semantics of SETF allow for such a thing?
2021-05-16T08:00:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: My inclination is to say that SETF doesn't restore "the value or values being stored" unless the return value(s) are EQ to the stored value(s)
2021-05-16T08:00:34Z phoe: what do you mean by "restore"?
2021-05-16T08:00:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: sorry, typo for "return"
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2021-05-16T08:03:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: Although, I guess "value" might be ambiguous here
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2021-05-16T08:18:35Z saturn2: another thread can modify a variable between setfing and reading it
2021-05-16T08:18:56Z phoe: let's assume no threading for simplicity
2021-05-16T08:20:17Z saturn2: i'm just saying if that violates the spec, it seems to have gone unnoticed for quite a while
2021-05-16T08:22:34Z moon-child: phoe said 'right afterwards'.  So let's assume that a small enough interval of time has passed that another thread couldn't have modified the variable
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2021-05-16T08:37:59Z Inline: what kinda variable ?
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2021-05-16T09:50:20Z splittist: beach: one source of inspiration might be things like Microsoft Graph, which is about sharing things with different access controls. Of course, being MS, the documentation is written in such as way as to be both too high-level and too low-level at the same time.
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2021-05-16T10:15:51Z pjb: beach: Does this clarify some things: https://gist.github.com/informatimago/5d36409a3657b968d1d002ed8eda6472
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2021-05-16T10:47:24Z muyinliu: The doc of SBCL Internals of URL http://www.sbcl.org/sbcl-internals/ should be updated. Any help?
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2021-05-16T11:31:01Z beach: splittist: Thanks!
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2021-05-16T11:32:36Z beach: pjb: Thanks, but no, not really.  It talks about the aspect I already know.
2021-05-16T11:33:03Z beach: muyinliu: Maybe #sbcl can help.
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2021-05-16T11:33:52Z muyinliu: beach: no response on channel #sbcl LOL
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2021-05-16T11:36:42Z beach: Well it is Sunday where I think most of the SBCL maintainers are located.  Perhaps they want some time for family life.
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2021-05-16T11:44:37Z nature: Learning Common Lisp and really liking it so far, I am a heavy vim user who can't edit text without vi-binding so I am currently using doom emacs for evil mode, but something weird is starting to happen... I am under the impression that vi-style binding are suboptimal when editing lisp, especially when working interactively with SLIME/SLY. Any take on this?
2021-05-16T11:45:48Z nature: Also maybe does anybody has some video recommendation of people making full use of the interactive workflow of lisp?
2021-05-16T11:48:15Z beach: Congratulations to learning Common Lisp.
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2021-05-16T11:56:14Z beach: nature: Weekends can be pretty slow here.  And I am thinking most users here use plain Emacs+SLIME/SLY, so you may have to wait until tomorrow for more people who have a take on it.
2021-05-16T11:56:50Z nature: I am in no rush thanks for letting me know tho :)
2021-05-16T11:57:14Z beach: Sure.
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2021-05-16T12:03:34Z beach: nature: For workflow, I usually have one Emacs window with the REPL, up to three windows with Common Lisp buffers, and one window with magit.  When I make small changes, I use C-c C-c on a top-level form in a Common Lisp buffer, and immediately test the change in the REPL.  For more extensive modifications, I re-load the ASDF system I am working on.
2021-05-16T12:04:04Z scymtym: nature: the "Common Lisp Tutorials" and "Little Bits of Lisp" playlists in https://www.youtube.com/user/CBaggers/playlists probably have a few things that could be helpful for you
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2021-05-16T12:04:51Z scymtym: those videos use Emacs and SLIME
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2021-05-16T12:08:34Z beach: The one named "Little bits of lisp - Function lambda list" shows the basic workflow.
2021-05-16T12:08:50Z nature: beach: Do you make use of the mouse as well to inspect expression, symbols etc..?
2021-05-16T12:09:15Z nature: scymtym: Thanks, I'll check them out
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2021-05-16T12:09:42Z beach: nature: I do yes, because I use the Clouseau inspector which pretty much requires it.
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2021-05-16T12:32:46Z beach: nature: Did you check out the movie I suggested?  Does that look like the way you work too?
2021-05-16T12:39:31Z nature: beach: Checking it right now, what's the key to jump from the repl to the lisp buffer? I know C-c C-z goes to the repl, but I never figured out the other way around
2021-05-16T12:40:03Z beach: C-x o changes to the next window.  So it works both directions.
2021-05-16T12:42:15Z nature: Thx and yeah that's the kind of worflow that looks good to me, copying a top-level sexp and pasting it, then modifying one of the inner sexps looks exactly what I am feeling I am struggling with
2021-05-16T12:43:06Z nature: with vi-binding I am mostly using visual mode with '%' to jump from one parenthesis to it's open/close counterpart
2021-05-16T12:44:56Z nature: But that feels pretty clunky honestly :/
2021-05-16T12:46:29Z beach: I'll spare you the lecture on the usual Emacs commands for stuff like that. :)
2021-05-16T12:47:32Z nature: What are the main commands to work with sexps in emacs? I honestly don't mind emacs binding when they are beter suited
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2021-05-16T12:48:22Z beach: My fingers know them, but "I" don't. :)
2021-05-16T12:48:27Z nature: Or where can I find those commands at least? I don't necessarily look to be spoon-fed
2021-05-16T12:48:32Z nature: hahaha
2021-05-16T12:48:35Z beach: C-x C-f, C-x C-b for navigation,  C-x C-a, C-x C-e for moving by function C-x C-t for swapping (I think).
2021-05-16T12:49:29Z beach: Maybe C-M-t.
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2021-05-16T12:50:01Z beach: Maybe they are all C-M in fact, because I use C-[ instead of M-
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2021-05-16T12:51:11Z beach: I shouldn't have tried. :(
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2021-05-16T13:03:17Z muyinliu: nature: Try Emacs plugin smartparens for manipulating sexps.
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2021-05-16T15:30:48Z loli: ^
2021-05-16T15:31:07Z loli: they are really nice, most others seem to use paredit, I use lispy myself, and some use parinfer
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2021-05-16T16:47:18Z atw: I've got a question about http://metamodular.com/lispos.pdf, re the single memory abstraction. Does this mean that every time a program creates a cons cell or object, that thing is written in the slow, permanent secondary memory?
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2021-05-16T16:55:07Z phoe: not immediately I assume
2021-05-16T16:55:36Z atw: hello phoe! I bought your book recently :)
2021-05-16T16:55:53Z phoe: it gets written into RAM for sure, and I don't know what is the exact process of synchronizing data between RAM and non-volatile memory or what beach plans for this
2021-05-16T16:55:58Z phoe: atw: thanks, hope it serves you well
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2021-05-16T17:02:20Z atw: I'm making a toy lisp system and I wanted something like (persist o) which causes o to be written to disk and evaluates to o. I was curious if CLOSOS took an explicit approach like this or if there's something more implicit that makes sense to do
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2021-05-16T18:07:19Z Bike: atw: don't quote me on this, but my impression was permanent storage is only done when a snapshot is taken, which may happen automatically but not at every moment
2021-05-16T18:10:28Z pjb: atw: in addition to snapshots, there may be logs written (of changed pages). but this would be performed in an efficient background task that wouldn't impact much the system performance.
2021-05-16T18:10:58Z pjb: atw: it worked like this on EROS and I found it was a nice feature. Unfortunately for some reasons, this feature wasn't kept for CoyotOS.
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2021-05-16T18:12:08Z pjb: atw: for a lispOS system you may also choose to have hardware to ensure persistence of the core memory.  Either with a different core memory technology, or by using eg. batteries to keep the DRAM alive.
2021-05-16T18:13:08Z pjb: atw: notice how systems such as macOS try very hard to give the user the impression of persistent core memory: when you crash and reboot, it can reopen all the open application and restore the state they were in (if the application implements the feature).e
2021-05-16T18:13:33Z pjb: atw: this means that this is a good feature for the users, so there's no reason why it could't be implemented in hardware (with battery backed DRAM).
2021-05-16T18:13:51Z pjb: atw: but of course, for that you need a system that wouldn't crash and destroy the DRAM contents…
2021-05-16T18:15:04Z pjb: beach: ok.  Then I didn't understand the aspect you didn't understand yet.
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2021-05-16T18:38:16Z mister_m: Is ``format'' the preferred way to join a list of items with a given separator?
2021-05-16T18:38:48Z mister_m: without a package like ``cl-str''
2021-05-16T18:39:09Z phoe: mister_m: I guess so
2021-05-16T18:39:32Z phoe: (format nil "~{~A~^ ~}" things) is how I do it
2021-05-16T18:39:43Z phoe: with space being the separator, that is
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2021-05-16T18:40:35Z mister_m: is using a library such as cl-str more typical for stuff like this?
2021-05-16T18:41:05Z phoe: I guess it depends on the programmer in question
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2021-05-16T18:41:18Z phoe: I never used cl-str in my life, but mostly because I never needed it
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2021-05-16T18:41:26Z phoe: if you do more string processing then I guess it can be useful
2021-05-16T18:42:43Z mister_m: fair enough
2021-05-16T18:42:46Z mister_m: thanks
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2021-05-16T18:43:22Z Josh_2: mister_m: I find cl-str very useful
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2021-05-16T18:44:25Z Josh_2: I use str:split all the time
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2021-05-16T18:48:14Z mister_m: It is nice not having to re-implement various things like that certainly. split-sequence seems pretty common as well for that usage too or cl-ppcre's split
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2021-05-16T19:01:52Z Jachy: I similarly like uiop:split-string because it's just there, but then some fraction of the time I also want to join and at that point might as well pull in cl-str...
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2021-05-16T19:13:50Z remexre: any reason why the reader wouldn't be able to find a package (sb-introspect) but find-symbol can find symbols from it at compiletime or runtime?
2021-05-16T19:15:10Z Xach: remexre: case issues maybe. i can't think of anything else offhand but it would help to see the error or code or both.
2021-05-16T19:17:29Z remexre: code is just (format t "~s~%" (sb-introspect:function-lambda-list #'foo)) vs (format t "~s~%" (funcall (find-symbol "FUNCTION-LAMBDA-LIST" "SB-INTROSPECT") #'foo))
2021-05-16T19:17:52Z Xach: oh, sb-introspect isn't loaded yet, then.
2021-05-16T19:17:57Z remexre: the former of which results in READ error during COMPILE-FILE: Package SB-INTROSPECT does not exist.
2021-05-16T19:18:00Z Xach: easy enough
2021-05-16T19:18:14Z remexre: oh, it's not loaded by default? I'd've assumed all the compiler builtin libs were
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2021-05-16T19:18:19Z Xach: no.
2021-05-16T19:18:29Z remexre: ok, I should just be able to import-from it, right?
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2021-05-16T19:18:35Z Xach: after it's loaded, yes
2021-05-16T19:18:52Z Xach: slime distorts the sense of what's loaded by default
2021-05-16T19:18:56Z Xach: sb-posix isn't even loaded by default
2021-05-16T19:20:01Z remexre: okay, looks like import-from works w/ package-inferred-system; thanks for the help!
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2021-05-16T19:24:07Z atw: thanks pjb, Bike :)
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2021-05-16T21:44:51Z npfaro: hi lispers
2021-05-16T21:45:04Z npfaro: what is the current status on windows builds of SBCL? it looks like it has been sitting at 2.0.0 for a while
2021-05-16T21:45:09Z npfaro: is it possible to build from src on windows?
2021-05-16T21:45:12Z npfaro: (the latest that is)
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2021-05-16T21:48:35Z lotuseater: npfaro: or you check out the version in here https://portacle.github.io/#get-win
2021-05-16T21:48:58Z lotuseater: and to build newer sbcl you also need sbcl ^^
2021-05-16T21:49:08Z brandflake11: lotuseater: Haha, I was just looking there to see what the version was for npfaro
2021-05-16T21:50:07Z lotuseater: hm i didn't see the sbcl version directly nor want to download :D
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2021-05-16T21:59:42Z brandflake11: npfaro: Have you tried compiling sbcl? It's pretty easy to compile.
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2021-05-17T03:01:32Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-05-17T03:04:37Z beach: atw: The CLOSOS specification calls for automatic persistence, so nothing explicit needs to be done.  As with other persistent systems, it is handled by checkpointing.  There is a chapter discussing the possible techniques.
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2021-05-17T03:21:39Z pjb: I'd favor batteries for DRAM…
2021-05-17T03:23:11Z beach: pjb: Jim Goodman made the same observation when I told him about checkpointing.
2021-05-17T03:23:14Z pjb: In laptop, this is already done to implement suspend mode.
2021-05-17T03:23:30Z pjb: So we could just ask to have the feature also on desktops and servers.
2021-05-17T03:23:48Z beach: I kind of agree, but you still need checkpointing, which became clear to me when I forgot to put my laptop on a charger one day.
2021-05-17T03:24:08Z pjb: Usually it lasts more time. from one week to one month.
2021-05-17T03:24:25Z pjb: But indeed, when the battery goes low, the laptop hibernates (saves the RAM to disk).
2021-05-17T03:24:29Z beach: But with a battery, checkpointing can be greatly simplified I think.
2021-05-17T03:24:37Z pjb: Definitely.
2021-05-17T03:24:53Z pjb: And we avoid the risk of losing a few minutes or seconds of transactions.
2021-05-17T03:25:19Z beach: That too.  Also, we need to plan for persistent primary memory.
2021-05-17T03:25:30Z beach: It shouldn't be far in the future now.
2021-05-17T03:25:46Z pjb: The thing is that then we require a system that doesn't crash (damaging the memory contents).
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2021-05-17T03:26:57Z pjb: It looks like that we may have to integrate a computer platform eventually, specifically optimized for CLOSOS or lispos…
2021-05-17T03:27:21Z beach: You mean adapt the hardware?
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2021-05-17T03:28:24Z pjb: I mean that some modification to some motherboard may be required, so we may have to negociate with a vendor, or design our own.
2021-05-17T03:29:33Z beach: What I would like to se is a system like CLOSOS used in things like smartphones, in which case, the smartphone makers will do the adaptation.
2021-05-17T03:29:46Z beach: *to see
2021-05-17T03:29:49Z pjb: Other components are concerned too, such as disk controllers. You want to ensure that data stored in the disk controller buffers is stored to persistent media when a power off event occurs.
2021-05-17T03:30:17Z pjb: beach: indeed, laptops, tablets and phones already have the required hardware.
2021-05-17T03:30:41Z beach: Definitely!  Disk caches inside disk modules can be evil.
2021-05-17T03:32:57Z beach: pjb: And thanks for the link to DDR5.
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2021-05-17T03:41:47Z beach: I find myself having mixed reactions to all those "toy Lisp" projects we learn about regularly.  On the one hand, I think they are great, because they are going to be a way for the creators to learn about Lisp, programming-language design, compiler techniques, etc.  On the other hand, I think that they are a gigantic waste of time, because the time could be spent on maintenance of some existing real Common Lisp implementation.
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2021-05-17T03:53:44Z jcowan: returning "the same value" for setq must mean returning a value eql to the input.
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2021-05-17T03:54:27Z jcowan: as opposed to eq
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2021-05-17T03:55:31Z pjb: beach: existing implementation have to move in a specific direction; it may be difficult to experiment with them.  Also, most implementations are not modular enough.
2021-05-17T03:55:47Z Bike: "same" is defined in the glossary to mean eql. i don't think the description of setq uses the word though.
2021-05-17T03:55:48Z pjb: since this exclude sicl, yes, more people should participate ;-)
2021-05-17T03:56:28Z pjb: jcowan: it's not possible return values that are EQ, since immutable lisp objects can be copied willy-nilly and not be EQ anymore.
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2021-05-17T03:57:17Z pjb: jcowan: but there's still a difficulty.  With SETF, we can mutate the place with a value that is different from the argument to SETF.
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2021-05-17T03:59:17Z pjb: jcowan: and SETF says: "results---the multiple values[2] returned by the storing form for the last place, …"; this is different than for SETQ.  For example, we could write (setf (double x) 2) (assert (= 1 x))  I understand that this setf should return 1.
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2021-05-17T03:59:49Z beach: pjb: I guess you are right about existing implementations.
2021-05-17T03:59:50Z pjb: (but it could be anything really, it depends on the storing form).
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2021-05-17T04:03:31Z jcowan: Scheme doesn't have this problem, because the setq and setf analogues return a single unspecified value
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2021-05-17T04:26:53Z Bike: i thought scheme didn't even have eq. shows what i know
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2021-05-17T04:44:16Z beach: Maybe we could persuade some of the creators of those "toy Lisps" to create the Bootstrap Common Lisp (BOCL) that I have been thinking about off and on.
2021-05-17T04:46:07Z beach: I mean BOCL is itself a "toy Lisp" in that performance is not (supposed to be) an issue.
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2021-05-17T04:55:55Z fe[nl]ix: beach: do you mind writing down your ideas ?
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2021-05-17T04:58:22Z beach: Not at all.  Do you mean here and now?
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2021-05-17T04:59:20Z fe[nl]ix: I was thinking of a blog post or a doc on github
2021-05-17T04:59:39Z beach: I can work on that.  Let me see what I have so far...
2021-05-17T05:01:22Z beach: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Bootstrap-Common-Lisp
2021-05-17T05:04:29Z pjb: Well, the control codes are not in the basic-char set… only the 95 printable characters, and #\newline are needed ;-)
2021-05-17T05:05:19Z beach: fe[nl]ix: That's actually a pretty decent description of the idea.
2021-05-17T05:05:32Z beach: Let me know if you need more substance.
2021-05-17T05:05:38Z pjb: beach: I would avoid void*; while it's a common trick used in C to implement genericity, a lot of behavior around void* is implementation specific.
2021-05-17T05:05:50Z oni-on-ion: sizeof size_t
2021-05-17T05:06:49Z beach: pjb: Yeah, maybe that won't be necessary since the plan is for every Common Lisp object to be represented as a pointer to a header object.
2021-05-17T05:07:34Z pjb: beach: basically, we could use a union.
2021-05-17T05:07:45Z beach: But that won't be necessary either.
2021-05-17T05:08:09Z beach: And with no tag bits, no fishy bit manipulation of pointers is required either.
2021-05-17T05:08:35Z pjb: exactly.
2021-05-17T05:12:53Z beach: But, yes, the "rack" may have to be a union.
2021-05-17T05:15:47Z pjb: beach: for bocl, we can implement in C only a kernel, and use it to implement the rest in lisp, like lisp500.c uses a lisp500.lisp to complete the language.
2021-05-17T05:16:23Z pjb: beach: notably there exist CLOS and LOOP implementations written in CL, so we don't have to implement anything in C for them.
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2021-05-17T05:36:56Z beach: pjb: Sort of.  There is no desire to implement in C what could be implemented in Common Lisp on top of a C kernel.  But I think it is a mistake to "bolt on" CLOS after the fact, the way it is usually done with PCL derivatives.
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2021-05-17T05:37:43Z beach: In fact, the idea of having every object represented the same way is to use standard objects for everything, so we need the concept of a class from the start.
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2021-05-17T05:43:06Z beach: But, for instance, for the reader, I think it would be best to implement a reader in C that has very limited capabilities, so that it is used only to read further source code, like Eclector for instance.
2021-05-17T05:44:09Z beach: It is a very interesting mental exercise that I think has not been tried too much, i.e., forget about performance, and do the simplest thing possible.
2021-05-17T05:44:47Z beach: Like calling every function with the static environment, the dynamic environment, and a list of arguments.
2021-05-17T05:45:02Z beach: That convention will simplify lots of stuff.
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2021-05-17T05:52:30Z moon-child: beach: in that case, eclector cannot use any of the features not implemented by the c reader
2021-05-17T05:53:27Z beach: Well, Eclector would not have to be the first thing to be read in.
2021-05-17T05:53:39Z moon-child: pjb: void* can round-trip any object pointer, and intptr_t (which is suitable for implementing fixnums) can round-trip any object pointer.  So I don't see anything wrong with using intptr_t
2021-05-17T05:53:51Z moon-child: beach: so a 3-level reader?  That would work
2021-05-17T05:53:57Z beach: No, why?
2021-05-17T05:54:13Z beach: The primitive C reader could be used to read in other code that Eclector needs.
2021-05-17T05:54:34Z beach: Once enough code has been read, Eclector can be read.
2021-05-17T05:55:19Z moon-child: I mean, eclector can not use any reader features that the c reader does not implement
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2021-05-17T05:55:41Z beach: I guess that's true, sure.
2021-05-17T05:56:00Z beach: So the C reader would have to implement all the reader features needed by Eclector.
2021-05-17T05:56:16Z beach: And we put pressure on scymtym to use as few reader features as possible. :)
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2021-05-17T05:59:36Z beach: Today is Monday here, and Monday mornings are chaotic around here.  I'll be mostly off for the next hour or so, but I'll read any additional thoughts about this subject when I get back.
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2021-05-17T06:24:02Z MichaelRaskin: Does Eclector need to be written using minimal reader features in the source code, or is it enough if it is written normally but keeps working after a read/print roundtrip? Although the difference is probably moot anyway, as reader conditionals are not to be used either way.
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2021-05-17T06:25:40Z pjb: moon-child: all right. However, the first thing you see in bocl sources, is a (void*)1 :-)
2021-05-17T06:26:23Z moon-child: right
2021-05-17T06:26:38Z moon-child: I was proposing using intptr_t instead of unions, because it seems simpler
2021-05-17T06:26:44Z moon-child: (void*)1 is ick
2021-05-17T06:26:53Z pjb: beach: the C reader needs to implement the reader features needed to read a version of the eclector sources.
2021-05-17T06:27:49Z pjb: beach: we can read the sources of eclector with a full CL reader, and print them. This removes a lot of special reader macro uses.  We can print them to even more crude sexp forms.
2021-05-17T06:28:11Z pjb: beach: typical example: (prin1-to-string (read-from-string "#x1234")) #| --> "4660" |#
2021-05-17T06:28:46Z moon-child: doing that necessitates a preexisting cl implementation for bootstrapping, though
2021-05-17T06:29:04Z pjb: moon-child: to write the bootstrapping CL implementation. Which we have.
2021-05-17T06:29:20Z pjb: We're not in 1960!
2021-05-17T06:29:30Z moon-child: the bootstrapping cl implementation should not depend on the existence of another cl implementation
2021-05-17T06:30:05Z moon-child: I think implementing the basic reader macros--#x #' ' etc--in c is relatively trivial.  So long as eclector does not define its own reader macros
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2021-05-17T06:30:48Z pjb: intptr_t and uintptr_t 1- only ensure roundtrip with void*  (not with eg. char*), and 2- These types are optional.
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2021-05-17T06:32:52Z moon-child: 1- void* can roundtrip char*, so we can just say (intptr_t)(void*)&character; 2- it's not _strictly_ standards-complicant, but I think you will be hard-pressed to find a platform that doesn't have an integer type that can round-trip void*
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2021-05-17T06:34:11Z moon-child: (void* is not guaranteed to roundtrip function pointers, but--again--I don't think there are any platforms where it matters in practice)
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2021-05-17T06:36:54Z pjb: moon-child: ok, I was wrong, 6.3.2.3 point 1 ensure that we can use void* to store any pointer type and round trip it.
2021-05-17T06:38:06Z pjb: (in ISO/IEC 9899:201x eg n1570.pdf of course).
2021-05-17T06:38:51Z moon-child: of course! :)
2021-05-17T06:39:17Z moon-child , perhaps somewhat shamefully, is more familiar with the c spec than the hyperspec
2021-05-17T06:39:21Z pjb: Well, I prefer to check the standard, because we may have surprises.
2021-05-17T06:41:37Z MichaelRaskin: moon-child: this is simply using an existing CL implementation for editing… the re-printed code is still human readable and usable on any architecture
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2021-05-17T06:42:52Z moon-child: MichaelRaskin: yes, but I think that, conceptually, the code should stand on its own.  The documentation talks about having as a goal not only portability, but a complete and clear expression of cl semantics
2021-05-17T06:42:59Z pjb: But eg in ISO/IEC TR 18037 n1169.pdf (embedded C), pointers are segregated into addressing spaces and may not be casted across addressing spaces.   But I assume we won't try to use bocl on an embedded controler.
2021-05-17T06:43:16Z moon-child: consider e.g. an imaginary scenario: all the binaries are gone, and we have only a c compiler from which to recreate everything
2021-05-17T06:43:52Z Nilby: Why not just cross-compile?
2021-05-17T06:44:14Z moon-child: pjb: right.  Another consideration: if bocl depends on bdw, it can be no more portable than it.  And I'm certain bdw depends on being able to reinterpret pointers as integers
2021-05-17T06:44:21Z MichaelRaskin: As the re-printed code is human-readable and architecture-independent, it would not be counted as a binary
2021-05-17T06:44:41Z moon-child: no, but it's hardly source code either
2021-05-17T06:49:57Z pjb: What is bdw?
2021-05-17T06:50:30Z moon-child: boehm-demers-weiser garbage collector
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2021-05-17T06:50:34Z pjb: oh, ok.
2021-05-17T06:50:48Z pjb: Well, yes, if we already have such a dependency.
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2021-05-17T07:07:48Z beach: The current BOCL sources should not be taken seriously.  I haven't given much thought to the implementation strategy.
2021-05-17T07:08:00Z beach: moon-child: thanks for the pull request.
2021-05-17T07:11:12Z moon-child: You're welcome.  Have you thought about the execution strategy--bytecode vs tree-walk?
2021-05-17T07:11:21Z beach: Nope.
2021-05-17T07:11:50Z beach: I agree with moon-child that BOCL should not depend on any other Common Lisp implementation.  In important reason for BOCL is to address the issues of people who are convinced that everything needs to be bootstrappable from C.  And using the output of some transformation is not a good plan.  The source should be source according to the definition by the FSF.
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2021-05-17T07:16:38Z beach: moon-child: Merged!  Thanks again!
2021-05-17T07:20:26Z pjb: beach: my argument is that we can use CL implementations to produce the bocl sources. And this includes to produces derivations of CL sources that we want to use.
2021-05-17T07:21:46Z pjb: beach: then half my sources are not sources, since I use lisp (notably emacs lisp) to produce them (when they're not lisp sources, that I can generate with lisp macros).
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2021-05-17T07:23:13Z pjb: but there are a lot of systems that are written not in C, that have a translator to C, that is used to bootstrap them on C-only platforms.  The generated C sources (which are not really sources, therefore) are distributed to bootstrap on those platforms.
2021-05-17T07:23:38Z pjb: It's a good strategy.  Why wouldn't sicl have a backed that would generate C code instead of native code?
2021-05-17T07:23:43Z pjb: +n
2021-05-17T07:23:51Z beach: pjb: Yes, I understand your argument.
2021-05-17T07:25:32Z pjb: Notably, C and the platforms are also moving targets; there are changes to the C standard every 10 years or so.  Platforms may evolve faster (standard libraries, etc).  So if instead of having a bootstrap C program that needs to be maintained manually, we have a way to generate the C code, it may be easier to update the C code generator to keep the bootstrap C sources uptodate.
2021-05-17T07:26:02Z pjb: (that said, bocl would be interesting in itself, as a minimalistic CL implementation).
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2021-05-17T07:31:24Z beach: Again, I understand your argument.  But the very chance of doing it this way resulting in its rejection as a bootstrapping platform is what is important to me.
2021-05-17T07:31:43Z beach: Otherwise, we would just generate C code as a backend from SICL, as you pointed out.
2021-05-17T07:38:12Z pjb: Both options are possible, they're not exclusive.
2021-05-17T07:40:46Z beach: Indeed.
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2021-05-17T07:51:11Z moon-child: I wonder if a more sensible bootstrapping measure would be to implement a simple cl subset in c, and then use that subset to build an _interpreter_ for real cl
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2021-05-17T07:51:42Z moon-child: this avoids the issue of needing to implement the complete semantic model in c (a language in which it would be somewhat annoying to work with)
2021-05-17T07:52:08Z beach: That's an idea.
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2021-05-17T07:53:07Z beach: I think we are all unfamiliar with this mindset, so there are probably ideas that nobody thought of.
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2021-05-17T08:01:00Z Gnuxie[m]: Iirc Squeak has a description for an interpreter then generates the c code for an interpreter
2021-05-17T08:01:49Z Gnuxie[m]: So you could go a step further and potentially skip the writing of c part completely
2021-05-17T08:03:01Z Gnuxie[m]: Oh wait I didn't read the whole discussion
2021-05-17T08:07:55Z phoe: if I understand correctly, then we need something that only requires a C compiler - so, in theory, pjb's idea about generating C code could possibly work
2021-05-17T08:08:12Z phoe: once this code is generated, it's standalone and doesn't need CL anymore in order to be built
2021-05-17T08:08:35Z beach: phoe: You are not understanding correctly.
2021-05-17T08:08:48Z phoe: OK, what do I miss?
2021-05-17T08:09:10Z beach: That generated C code doesn't qualify as "source code".
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2021-05-17T08:10:07Z phoe: yes, it won't really be source code
2021-05-17T08:10:32Z phoe: though it fits the description of "I need to be able to compile it on a machine that only has a C compiler"
2021-05-17T08:11:47Z beach: Look, I am writing a Common Lisp implementation in pure Common Lisp, so I am not the one with the argument that requires BOCL.  But I know that there are some people who want to bootstrap Common Lisp from "C source code only", and BOCL is an attempts to make life easier for people with that requirement.
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2021-05-17T08:12:42Z beach: The idea is that (as the README says) the pain of writing a Common Lisp implementation in something other than Common Lisp would then be concentrated to BOCL, and others could go on with their lives.
2021-05-17T08:13:27Z beach: But the pain will be more tolerable in BOCL than in other Common Lisp implementations, because of the different requirements in performance, user friendliness, etc.
2021-05-17T08:13:53Z beach: *is an attemp
2021-05-17T08:13:54Z beach: t
2021-05-17T08:13:56Z phoe: to be frank, I don't think most of them manually inspect and read the C source code that gets generated, so in theory you could order SICL to dump C code, wrap it in a tar.gz, make a release, and call that a solution - when they unzip the archive on a machine only with a C compiler and build it, they get a CL implementation, which is what they want
2021-05-17T08:13:57Z beach: *sigh*
2021-05-17T08:14:48Z phoe: to most of them, it won't really matter that this C code is spaghetti compiler output, it'll matter that it buiilds.
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2021-05-17T08:15:19Z beach: phoe: Oh, I know of creators of Common Lisp implementation who would not consider using BOCL if its "source code" were generated.
2021-05-17T08:16:10Z beach: phoe: So basically, you are saying "beach, stop that silly project and do something else instead"?
2021-05-17T08:16:33Z phoe: beach: of course I'm *not* saying this
2021-05-17T08:18:53Z beach: So, I have decided that I think that there are people who would like to bootstrap Common Lisp from C source code (using FSF's definition).  And I think BOCL is an interesting idea because of the unique requirements.  I think it is interesting to imagine where these requirements would take us.  Maybe BOCL will never happen, and maybe there aren't any people like that.  It is still interesting to me.
2021-05-17T08:20:18Z phoe: sure, the problem is pretty interesting
2021-05-17T08:20:53Z beach: And it is fine with me if people think I am wrong.  These people should just not contribute to BOCL.  But please don't try to convince me to abandon the idea.  It is pointless.  The idea will remain in my head.
2021-05-17T08:21:08Z phoe: where in the world did I try to convince you to abandon the idea
2021-05-17T08:21:09Z Nilby: I think catering to "only a C compiler" people, who can't compile ECL, or CLisp, or even qemu and an old binary and cross-compile, doesn't seem to serve much purpose. It doesnt seem to have much hindered other CLs.
2021-05-17T08:22:09Z beach: phoe: People suggesting that generated C code is OK as part of BOCL are suggesting that I abandon the fundamental premise of BOCL that it use only "C source code" according to FSF's definition.
2021-05-17T08:23:05Z Nilby: Provding a clean, verifiable chain of code from machine to CL might be useful, but is a different requirement.
2021-05-17T08:23:09Z beach: Nilby: OK, let me explain a bit further....
2021-05-17T08:23:43Z phoe: OK, but how in the world did you put an "I" in there? I wasn't even thinking of you when I made the statement that generated C code would build on a machine with only a C compiler
2021-05-17T08:23:48Z beach: Nilby: ... and please don't tell me that I am "wrong" because I might very well be.  I still think it is an interesting mental exercise...
2021-05-17T08:23:56Z phoe: sure, it won't fit the FSF requirement and therefore solves a different problem
2021-05-17T08:24:15Z beach: Nilby: So my idea is that there are several Common Lisp implementation written in some language other than Common Lisp, like C or C++...
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2021-05-17T08:24:58Z beach: Nilby: I know that it is painful to write a Common Lisp implementation that way, so there is a lot of code in those Common Lisp implementations that is hard to maintain, and certainly more code than there has to be.
2021-05-17T08:25:33Z beach: Nilby: And some people writing Common Lisp implementations that way think that it is important to bootstrap from just C.
2021-05-17T08:26:21Z beach: Nilby: So my idea is to make life easier for such people (who may not exist), by concentrating the pain in one Common Lisp implementation, so that they can improve their code by writing more of it in Common Lisp.
2021-05-17T08:26:56Z beach: Nilby: That thinking of min obviously excludes the use of an existing Common Lisp implementation written in C like Clisp or ECL, or ...
2021-05-17T08:27:30Z beach: Because those implementations are written with other objectives in mind, like safety, performance, user friendliness.
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2021-05-17T08:28:20Z Nilby: I'm just afraid another CL in C will distract from a better CL in CL. I might be intersting to observe how Dylan was bootstrapped, once from CL, another time from C. But the C version was effeectively thrown away.
2021-05-17T08:28:31Z beach: phoe: Oh, I apologize.  I implicitly thought you were talking about BOCL.
2021-05-17T08:29:13Z beach: Nilby: You can rest assured that I will not replace SICL by BOCL.
2021-05-17T08:30:23Z Nilby: Okay. That's good. :)
2021-05-17T08:31:28Z phoe: beach: nope, I was talking about the similar but different problem of bootstrapping CL only from a C compiler, not about BOCL and your assumptions about it
2021-05-17T08:31:46Z phoe: sorry for the confusion
2021-05-17T08:33:31Z beach: phoe: Got it.  Again, I apologize.
2021-05-17T08:33:35Z phoe: me too, sorry
2021-05-17T08:33:50Z phoe: in particular, pjb's idea about the ability to build SICL from generated C sources got me pretty interested
2021-05-17T08:33:52Z beach: Here is another piece of information...
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2021-05-17T08:34:38Z beach: Currently, we use SBCL to bootstrap SICL.  But in the past, I have had to abandon some bootstrapping strategies because of limitations in SBCL.
2021-05-17T08:35:27Z phoe: clearly pjb's idea is no BOCL, but it does remove one piece of the chain (intermediate CL implementation) in exchange for another (SICL/Cleavir backend for generating C code that also deals with all the C quirks)
2021-05-17T08:35:28Z Nilby: I have some bias because I wish I could get back my time spent working on Dylan and Scheme in C.
2021-05-17T08:35:39Z beach: Those limitations exist because of the trade-offs made by SBCL.  It tries to optimize performance for typical application programs.  And bootstrapping SICL is very different from typical application programs.
2021-05-17T08:36:22Z beach: So the idea of having a Common Lisp implementation without such trade-offs, even if it is dog slow, is an attractive one.
2021-05-17T08:36:31Z phoe: performance? you mean that bootstrapping became infeasible because it was slow on SBCL?
2021-05-17T08:36:51Z beach: Now, we ran out of "immobile space".
2021-05-17T08:37:04Z phoe: ooooh, so that sort of limitation
2021-05-17T08:37:21Z beach: And, yes, bootstrapping times were very long, but that's not a showstopper.  Just inconvenient.
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2021-05-17T08:38:31Z beach: And I strongly suspect we will run into different limitations when we try to bootstrap SICL on other existing Common Lisp implementations.  Just because of the unusual use case.
2021-05-17T08:40:57Z beach: Nilby: I am guessing Dylan and Scheme are very different from BOCL; I am thinking they have the same objectives as Clisp and ECL, and other Common Lisp implementations written in C, namely to be usable for application programming.
2021-05-17T08:41:20Z beach: Nilby: That difference in mindset changes everything.
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2021-05-17T08:42:00Z Nilby: beach: Actually there was a slow Dylan interpreter in C "Mindy", just for bootstrapping a real compiler.
2021-05-17T08:42:34Z beach: I see.  I am sorry you wasted a lot of time on it.
2021-05-17T08:43:09Z Nilby: Some troubles seem to be persistant. On Multics lisp had to be built out of an existing lisp for performance reseasons, even though the compiler was in PL1.
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2021-05-17T08:44:06Z lukego: Squeak Smalltalk has my favorite story on bootstrapping. Just saying. http://ftp.squeak.org/docs/OOPSLA.Squeak.html
2021-05-17T08:44:13Z beach: I didn't know that about Multics Maclisp.
2021-05-17T08:44:44Z lukego: but I think their approach is pretty tied to being a bytecode interpreter.
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2021-05-17T08:45:15Z Nilby: But supposedly Moon wrote a good enough Lisp in assembly in a few days to bootstrap.
2021-05-17T08:48:06Z moon-child: usually people pull that kind of thing with forth.  But there is https://github.com/jart/sectorlisp
2021-05-17T08:49:11Z Nilby: It seems like Squeak did something akin to what pjb was suggesting.
2021-05-17T08:52:09Z Nilby: Interesting reference in that Squeak link: "Babel—A Translator from Smalltalk into CLOS"
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2021-05-17T09:00:16Z beach: My initial strategy for BOCL was to define many objects as static C structures.  But I now think it might be more maintainable to generate those structures at start-up time.
2021-05-17T09:00:44Z beach: That way, arbitrary code can be invoked to generate the objects.
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2021-05-17T09:14:27Z pjb: http://files.squeak.org/sources_files/SqueakV50.sources.gz
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2021-05-17T09:47:09Z pjb: Nilby: that said, in the current version of Squeak, it seems the sources of the VM are not included (I can't find "VMConstruction-Interpreter", and "VMConstruction-Translation to C"  in the Browser).
2021-05-17T09:49:12Z pjb: http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/2211
2021-05-17T09:51:15Z pjb: VMMaker is here: http://source.squeak.org/@ddp-JUp9r9VKRV6N/KxFj-azj
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2021-05-17T10:46:23Z engblom: Besides https://github.com/joinr/clclojure, do you know about any other effort to port much of the clojure functionality to cl?
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2021-05-17T10:50:43Z daphnis: what cl library should one use to parse xml and html?
2021-05-17T10:51:35Z phoe: daphnis: plump
2021-05-17T10:51:48Z phoe: engblom: https://github.com/ruricolist/cloture
2021-05-17T10:51:57Z loke[m]: <daphnis "what cl library should one use t"> cxml
2021-05-17T10:52:10Z engblom: phoe: Thanks!
2021-05-17T10:54:06Z daphnis: thanks!
2021-05-17T10:54:29Z engblom: phoe: That also seems to be a reimplementation of Clojure rather than bringing some Clojure features to CL. I was thinking about something that would provide functions and macros from Clojure to CL. For example loop[] recur, spit/slurp, etc
2021-05-17T10:54:57Z engblom: So more like a library with familiar functions/macros from Clojure rather than a reimplementation
2021-05-17T10:57:44Z phoe: doesn't make much sense to me - we have CL analogues of all those
2021-05-17T10:58:50Z phoe: loop recur is done via cl:loop most of the time, spit/slurp are alexandria:{read,write}-file-into-{byte-vector,string}
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2021-05-17T11:00:02Z phoe: you can write clojure in CL, but the question is why - it won't be idiomatic which means that you'll get into issues when going multiplayer with your code
2021-05-17T11:00:25Z phoe: s/into/{into,from}/
2021-05-17T11:00:52Z phoe: s/into/welp I mixed them up but you know what I mean/
2021-05-17T11:01:10Z phao: Hi... I know this is kind of a vague question, but I don't really know how to ask it any better. Is common lisp good for numerical work (in the sense of scientific computing, computing mathy objects, like ode, pde solvers, interpolation, digital image processing, statistics-stuff, etc)?
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2021-05-17T11:05:19Z phoe: phao: I know that ACL2 is written in Common Lisp, and I know multiple libraries for doing mathy stuff that you mentioned
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2021-05-17T11:05:51Z jackdaniel: phao: common lisp has optimizing compilers, so if you put enough effort into your program then it will be very performant (numerically)
2021-05-17T11:05:54Z phoe: there's also maxima, also written in CL - ACL2 is more suitable for logic programming than math IIRC
2021-05-17T11:06:19Z engblom: Also maxima (and thus also wxmaxima) is written in lisp.
2021-05-17T11:06:35Z loke[m]: engblom: wxmaxima is written in C++
2021-05-17T11:06:35Z jackdaniel: usually (for straight-forward algorithms) common lisp program will be around 5x slower than equivalent c++ program and around 50x faster than equivalent python3 program
2021-05-17T11:07:00Z jackdaniel: I took these numbers from my magical "I-think-so" hat, so you may trust them
2021-05-17T11:07:01Z loke[m]: wxmaxima talks to a backend Maxima instance (maxima is of course CL)
2021-05-17T11:07:02Z engblom: loke[m]: I have seen it pull in some lisp as a dependency, so are you sure?
2021-05-17T11:07:11Z engblom: Ah, ok
2021-05-17T11:07:25Z loke[m]: engblom: I'm a contributor to both Maxima and wxmaxima. Yes I'm sure.
2021-05-17T11:08:11Z engblom: loke[m]: Your explanation makes sense, because if it usises maxima as backend, then a lisp is needed there.
2021-05-17T11:08:25Z loke[m]: I'm working on a pure CL graphical frontend to Maxima which runs in the smae CL image as Maxima itself. It allows me to integrate more closely with the low-level functionality of Maxima.
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2021-05-17T11:08:54Z loke[m]: For example, animation can iteratively run Maxima expressions to recompute variables. This is not possible in mxmaxima.
2021-05-17T11:09:09Z engblom: loke[m]: Nice, I am looking forward to that! While I do not use wxmaxima daily, I use it several times a year when doing some calculations.
2021-05-17T11:09:22Z loke[m]: https://peertube.functional.cafe/videos/watch/c55d0e37-b92f-4070-9b37-6fb7f8459fd5
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2021-05-17T11:11:44Z engblom: loke[m]: Is it on github?
2021-05-17T11:12:01Z phao: jackdaniel, about that "I-think-so" hat of yours (hehehe) -- How would you compare the kind of performance you get off of common lisp with what you get out of java?
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2021-05-17T11:12:04Z loke[m]: engblom: Yes. For now. I want to move it to something that is not github
2021-05-17T11:12:27Z engblom: loke[m]: Because of ms?
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2021-05-17T11:13:57Z jackdaniel: I don't know, I haven't programmed in Java for years and it is constantly improved
2021-05-17T11:15:31Z jackdaniel: probably in the same ballpark :)
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2021-05-17T11:17:45Z loke[m]: engblom: well, maybe.
2021-05-17T11:17:54Z phao: Ok. Well, thank you =)
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2021-05-17T11:19:21Z daphnis: how does one get the output of a shell command into a string?
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2021-05-17T11:19:40Z jackdaniel: technically speaking programming languages are neither fast or slow - it is a domain of the language implementation; in practice though some language specifications prohobit certain types of optimization or make them harder
2021-05-17T11:19:44Z loke[m]: daphnis: that depends on which library you use to run commands.
2021-05-17T11:19:53Z engblom: phao: For some real useless numbers, check out https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/fastest/lisp.html. It is pretty much all about what "team" has been creating better algorithms and what program got more startup overhead.
2021-05-17T11:21:03Z jackdaniel: who said that my magic hat is not real?
2021-05-17T11:22:13Z phao: Right. Thank you all for the help
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2021-05-17T11:30:30Z splittist: daphnis: uiop:launch-program or uiop:run-program might be one (or, two) answer
2021-05-17T11:30:32Z splittist: (s)
2021-05-17T11:32:58Z pjb: daphnis: (uiop:run-program "echo hello" :output :string) #| --> "hello ; " ; nil ; 0 |#
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2021-05-17T11:33:34Z pjb: s/ ; /\n/ it's my tool that converts newlines into ' ; ' in this output.
2021-05-17T11:34:31Z pjb: daphnis: (string-trim #(#\newline) (uiop:run-program "echo hello" :output :string)) #| --> "hello" |#
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2021-05-17T11:35:47Z daphnis: pjb: thanks, this is simpler than the other run-program
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2021-05-17T13:04:36Z beach: engblom: phoe asked you a question that I would also like to see the answer to, namely why would you want to write Clojure in Common Lisp.  If you want to write Clojure, why not just use Clojure rather than Common Lisp?
2021-05-17T13:06:03Z beach: engblom: Also, did you see my answer to your inquiry about updating the Common Lisp "specification"?
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2021-05-17T13:33:31Z engblom: beach: Both things are actually related. Clojure is the first Lisp dialect I have used and I noticed how much shorter my source code became. It looks like it was designed to be as practical as possible for the programmer, making things like shared resources, tail recursion without blowing stack, etc possible. The bad thing with Clojure is how it is depending on Java and how slow it is to start up. It is not
2021-05-17T13:33:38Z engblom: that I need to write Clojure in Common Lisp, but if there would be a single library that is having a bit more of modern functionality I would appreciate it.
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2021-05-17T13:34:31Z engblom: beach: I actually want to use CL because of how much faster it starts up on RPI.
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2021-05-17T13:35:30Z engblom: beach: First I was wondering if there is a process of updating the specification, then as I got the answer that there is no such process I begun thinking that maybe someone has created a library that does this thing: providing more modern functionality.
2021-05-17T13:38:19Z phoe: the functionality is mostly already in there, just available as libraries
2021-05-17T13:38:36Z phoe: CL has the upside where programmers can easily extend the language themselves, and lots of lispers use that to full extent
2021-05-17T13:39:08Z phoe: so you don't need an updated language specification to be able to e.g. use arrow macros or pattern matching
2021-05-17T13:39:14Z jackdaniel: and lots of lispers use that to the extent of their cognitive horizont* mop i.e is underutilized
2021-05-17T13:39:23Z phoe: you just (quickload :arrows) or (quickload :optima)
2021-05-17T13:39:50Z phoe: and yes, what jackdaniel said - we definitely need more MOP usage and promotion
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2021-05-17T13:40:16Z phoe: jackdaniel: also, have you seen the recent MOP study group video? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag8esPzFIDQ
2021-05-17T13:40:46Z jackdaniel: let me start my "google browser" tha removes its caches after each run
2021-05-17T13:41:43Z phoe: s/MOP study group video/CL study group video where people discuss the MOP/
2021-05-17T13:41:53Z jdz: jackdaniel: I only watch youtube videos with mpv.
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2021-05-17T13:42:48Z jackdaniel: I had a google account, but got cut from it by the behemoth itself for no clear reason; good ridding ,) sorry for the offtopic
2021-05-17T13:43:47Z jackdaniel: phoe: I'll watch it in spare time, thanks.
2021-05-17T13:44:34Z beach: engblom: Yes, I am beginning to understand.  You would rather write Clojure, but you are using Common Lisp because it is faster.  I think that's a horrible idea in general, i.e., to use idioms from one language when writing code in a different one.  Plus, this channel is about Common Lisp itself, and, like phoe, I think most people prefer to use it as it is.
2021-05-17T13:46:01Z jackdaniel: while common lisp (as a language) is not very opinionated, there is something what one could call a 'consensual common lisp programming style' - involving clos and not well aligned with functional programming
2021-05-17T13:46:17Z phoe: I think it'll be better overall to learn the CL idioms and use them in CL - much less total overhead for you and other lispers this way, especially since you can expect most of the clojure idioms to be either identical (sans the name) or mostly equivalent in CL
2021-05-17T13:46:55Z jackdaniel: that said some programmers create libraries not following the 'consensus', i.e fset or series; some programmers have unique styles that i.e rely heavily on macros or on closures
2021-05-17T13:46:56Z phoe: jackdaniel: consensual? is that the proper word you're looking for?
2021-05-17T13:47:02Z phoe: oh yes, it is
2021-05-17T13:47:06Z phoe derp
2021-05-17T13:48:19Z cranium_: is there a resource about this "consensus", i.e. the do's and don'ts of CL?
2021-05-17T13:48:34Z jackdaniel: people will be quick to correct you if you do not follow it ,-)
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2021-05-17T13:49:32Z jackdaniel: that said _imo_ the language is bigger than that and there is certainly a place on #lisp for subcommunities that come up with "foreign" concepts
2021-05-17T13:50:54Z jackdaniel: (but this probably inhibits the use of most of the accumulated wisdom carried by the community)
2021-05-17T13:51:19Z cranium_: Google's CL guide links norvig.com/luv-slides.ps, perhaps that is somewhat of a start.
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2021-05-17T13:51:43Z engblom: beach: Yes, it is true that I like Clojure, but still I am not against learning how to do CL programming. As it has already been pointed out by phoe serveral times, the functionality is in libraries, I was just wondering if there is a ready library collection for people coming from Clojure.
2021-05-17T13:52:56Z engblom: For a beginninger it is a difficult task to find all those libraries that are spread out all over github and who knows where. Those that phoe has mentioned I have put into a text file so I can find them later when needed.
2021-05-17T13:53:17Z beach: engblom: Well, it seems you are asking for a library that has functionality that already exists in Common Lisp, but with different syntax.  That's the part that is not a good idea.
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2021-05-17T13:53:56Z phoe: engblom: regarding "for people coming from Clojure", I don't think such a thing has been created
2021-05-17T13:54:18Z phoe: as in, I have never seen a complete manual that lists and/or indexes all the differences and all the similarities
2021-05-17T13:54:40Z phoe: google tells me about https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/4oo1cp/common_lisp_for_clojure_programmer/
2021-05-17T13:54:42Z beach: engblom: Programming languages are like natural languages in that respect.  You should learn the idioms of the language you are using.  It looks strange (and people won't understand you) if you use "foreign" idioms.
2021-05-17T13:55:02Z phoe: and there's a *little* bit of it at https://clojure.org/reference/lisps
2021-05-17T13:55:31Z beach: engblom: Imagine the day you need help with debugging some of your code.  You expose it here, but it is full of Clojure idioms.  Clearly, fewer people would be able to help you then.
2021-05-17T13:55:34Z phoe: but I haven't seen something designed specifically for clojure programmers who want to learn CL. might be good to create it, as long as someone has the will, time, and competences to do that.
2021-05-17T13:55:47Z jackdaniel: interesting fact: clojure was initially written in common lisp as a transpiler to java; I remember seeing that old source code somewhere
2021-05-17T13:55:48Z Nilby: You can mutate CL into something quite Clojure-like, but then you might be programming in a language that has a smaller community than both. But it's that's what you like, then why not? When people say "modern" it seems like it's more style than substance. I think it's worth it to try the CL style.
2021-05-17T13:56:04Z engblom: beach: Regardless of what impression you have of me, I still enjoy working with CL, so it is not like I hate it and slowly I will learn how to do things the CL way. It is only when the CL solution seems to be more verbose that I wish I had some stuff from Clojure (like arrows).
2021-05-17T13:56:28Z engblom: phoe: Thanks, I will look at those
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2021-05-17T13:57:25Z phoe: engblom: wrt arrows, as I said, (ql:quickload :arrows) and you have them - the only verbosity is that you need to add an ASDF dependency in your system and then (:use #:arrows) or (:import-from #:arrows #:-> #:->> ...) as appropriate
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2021-05-17T13:57:56Z phoe: wrt other Clojure idioms, I guess we can look for their CL equivalents and/or counterparts on demand
2021-05-17T13:58:10Z Bike: you can also put the load into your init file so you don't have to do anything before using them in the repl
2021-05-17T13:58:49Z engblom: phoe: Yes, and I have this information about arrows stored in a text file, so that part is solved.
2021-05-17T13:59:44Z jackdaniel: or save-your-lisp-and-die after loading the "base stuff" and put it in /usr/bin/cl-oh-jure
2021-05-17T13:59:56Z phoe: engblom: good; if you find anything more, then let me/us know, and possibly we could try to use those questions to e.g. make a CL Cookbook article that lists those things for Clojure programmers who want to try CL
2021-05-17T14:00:14Z engblom: One thing I wonder: how do you do recursion without blowing the stack? Or do you simply replace the recursion with some other kind of loop construct?
2021-05-17T14:00:28Z phoe: engblom: usually the latter
2021-05-17T14:00:30Z jackdaniel: usually cl programmers aim at iteration
2021-05-17T14:00:33Z splittist: Or you make the changes at the editor/source level, so your code is really idiomatic CL, but you write it with editor macros that mimic clojure (until you don't need to).
2021-05-17T14:01:03Z jackdaniel: that said most implementations have tail recursion on way or other (i.e under certain optimization settings)
2021-05-17T14:01:09Z phoe: most implementations perform TCO only when they are instructed to, so if you compile your code with e.g. full debuggability then there is no TCO (because it does not preserve debug stack information)
2021-05-17T14:01:09Z splittist imagines clojippy "It looks like you're trying to ..."
2021-05-17T14:01:29Z jackdaniel: s/on way/one way/
2021-05-17T14:01:30Z phoe imagines cl-ippy - the most annoying CL system
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2021-05-17T14:01:59Z rpg: Does anyone know -- does clisp ship without ASDF?  I was surprised that `(require :asdf)` doesn't work on the clisp install I got from brew...
2021-05-17T14:02:06Z phoe: s/when they are instructed to/on proper optimization settings/
2021-05-17T14:02:18Z phoe: rpg: where does brew get its CLISP from?
2021-05-17T14:02:41Z jackdaniel: rpg: you may configure clisp to build with asdf, but the option is disabled by default (afair)
2021-05-17T14:02:56Z engblom: phoe: How do I instruct sbcl to do TCO?
2021-05-17T14:03:16Z phoe fires up the SBCL manual
2021-05-17T14:03:28Z jackdaniel: rpg: that said, last time I've checked clisp had ASDF 2.24
2021-05-17T14:03:29Z phoe: default optimization settings should be good enough for TCO
2021-05-17T14:03:30Z rpg: Ah. Brew probably builds with the default. I'm feeling kinda cranky about this, maybe I will just drop clisp from the ITERATE CI/CD.
2021-05-17T14:03:51Z phoe fires up SBCL manual
2021-05-17T14:04:00Z rpg: The whole 14 year old release isn't warming the cockles of my heart, either.
2021-05-17T14:04:02Z jackdaniel: (invoke-restart 'fire-up-sbcl-manual)
2021-05-17T14:04:03Z phoe: 5.3.4 - "The elimination of tail-recursive frames can be prevented by disabling tail-recursion optimization, which happens when the debug optimization quality is greater than 2."
2021-05-17T14:04:17Z phoe: engblom: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Debug-Tail-Recursion
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2021-05-17T14:04:55Z phoe: so TCO is performed as long as (optimize (debug 2)) or less is in effect
2021-05-17T14:04:58Z jackdaniel: clisp is unique in many conforming ways, so it may show interesting regressions in your software
2021-05-17T14:05:00Z phoe: (the default for DEBUG is 1)
2021-05-17T14:05:19Z phoe: jackdaniel: I chuckled at the restart
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2021-05-17T14:11:46Z engblom: phoe: When I try (defun factorial (n) (if (= n 1) 1 (* n (factorial (- n 1))))) it will blow the stack if I give it 100000, even if I wrap (optimize ... ) around it.
2021-05-17T14:12:41Z fe[nl]ix: beach: the idea for BOCL looks good, but have you considered taking an existing implementation, like XCL, and simplifying it ?
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2021-05-17T14:15:44Z _death: engblom: in this definition, the factorial call is not a tail call
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2021-05-17T14:17:23Z cranium_: because of the multiplication?
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2021-05-17T14:17:43Z phoe: yes
2021-05-17T14:17:49Z flip214: engblom: you'll need a recursive call with an accumulator parameter
2021-05-17T14:18:09Z phoe: (defun factorial (n) (labels ((helper (n i acc) (if (= n i) acc (helper n (1+ i) (* i acc))))) (helper n 1 1)))
2021-05-17T14:18:20Z phoe: no stack blown, just my emacs choked on printing the output
2021-05-17T14:19:01Z _death: phoe: factorial of 100000 is huge.. unlikely to terminate any time soon
2021-05-17T14:19:04Z phoe: so (time (progn (factorial 100000) nil)) gives me 2 seconds
2021-05-17T14:19:11Z phoe: _death: huh?
2021-05-17T14:19:15Z splittist: I sometimes wonder if slime needs a "About to print out EleventyBillion characters - are you sure? Y/n" facility
2021-05-17T14:19:16Z phoe: but it just terminated for me
2021-05-17T14:19:56Z flip214: phoe: is it faster to multiple the bigger numbers first?
2021-05-17T14:20:07Z phoe: oh woop, I got an error - s/=/</ in my code
2021-05-17T14:20:18Z phoe: flip214: no idea, you go into bignum territory very quickly anyway
2021-05-17T14:20:22Z _death: phoe: check your factorial function
2021-05-17T14:20:54Z engblom: _death: You are right, my fault.
2021-05-17T14:21:11Z phoe: _death: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2446#2446
2021-05-17T14:21:13Z engblom: _death: I tried also in Clojure and it will also blow the stack with the way I first defined it.
2021-05-17T14:21:30Z engblom: phoe: Yes, that solution works well with SBCL, I tried it.
2021-05-17T14:21:51Z beach: fe[nl]ix: No I hadn't considered that.  I imagine every implementation has profound design decisions that are contrary to the main idea of BOCL.  I may be wrong of course.
2021-05-17T14:22:15Z beach: contrapunctus: I took most of your changes.  Thanks again.
2021-05-17T14:22:33Z beach: minion: Please tell engblom about updating the Common Lisp standard.
2021-05-17T14:22:33Z minion: engblom: please look at updating the Common Lisp standard: See http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/updating-the-standard.html for an explanation why it is not likely that there will be a revised Common Lisp standard, why a revised standard is most often not needed, and sometimes not even desirable.
2021-05-17T14:22:36Z engblom: This actually gives CL an edge over Clojure in this case as one do not need to use (recur).
2021-05-17T14:22:48Z phoe: engblom: but note that if you (declare (optimize debug)), you'll blow the stack
2021-05-17T14:22:56Z engblom: minion: Thank you, I was given that one earlier too.
2021-05-17T14:22:56Z minion: np
2021-05-17T14:23:05Z phoe: and some people actually restrict the SBCL compiler policy to only produce code with high debug and safety
2021-05-17T14:23:11Z beach: engblom: I updated it according to the suggestions of contrapunctus.
2021-05-17T14:23:26Z beach: engblom: No profound changes though.  No need to read it again.
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2021-05-17T14:23:55Z _death: phoe: your factorial is off by one.. but you're right that it's not as huge as I thought.. I just have (debug 3) which disables tail call elimination and so sbcl crashes
2021-05-17T14:24:02Z Nilby: But why does factorial 100000 have those weird patterns in it?
2021-05-17T14:24:11Z phoe: _death: yes, I just fixed it
2021-05-17T14:24:27Z phoe: off by one errors strike again
2021-05-17T14:25:01Z flip214: phoe: in a quick test, going from big numbers down uses 12% more CPU cycles and conses more... because bignums are reached faster, I guess
2021-05-17T14:25:15Z lotuseater: oh yes, or if in a mathematical book/paper one uses indexing starting from 1 ^^
2021-05-17T14:25:25Z phoe: but, in order to accomodate people and implementations who explicitly *disable* tail call optimizations, it's safer to write imperative code rather than heavy recursion - even tail recursion
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2021-05-17T14:25:50Z phoe: and there are people who do that, e.g. _death and phoe
2021-05-17T14:26:13Z flip214: phoe: recursion with TCO might give you the _same_ assembler code as a manual loop
2021-05-17T14:26:28Z beach: It is even worse than that.  Code that is artificially converted to be tail recursive is usually much harder to understand than the iterative version.
2021-05-17T14:26:40Z phoe: flip214: yes
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2021-05-17T14:28:00Z contrapunctus: beach: happy to help ^^
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2021-05-17T14:31:40Z engblom: 0
2021-05-17T14:31:56Z jackdaniel: mniej niz zerooo, mniej niz zeroo
2021-05-17T14:32:32Z engblom: jackdaniel: That zero ended up there by mistake, I must have been typing in wrong window at some point.
2021-05-17T14:32:58Z jackdaniel: sure, I've automatically started singing a (very old) polish rock song
2021-05-17T14:34:05Z pfdietz: Computing factorial by bisection is faster.   100000! takes 0.392 s when I do that.
2021-05-17T14:34:53Z _death: pfdietz: alexandria has that iirc
2021-05-17T14:35:14Z Bike: yeah, it's with a general binomial coefficient computer.
2021-05-17T14:36:23Z beach: jackdaniel: By Proletaryat I hope.
2021-05-17T14:36:49Z Bike: "For even better results it should be possible to use prime factorization magic, but Nikodemus ran out of steam."
2021-05-17T14:37:27Z jackdaniel: beach: Lady Pank, 1983
2021-05-17T14:37:36Z beach: Oh well.
2021-05-17T14:37:40Z phoe: pfdietz: bisection?
2021-05-17T14:38:04Z Bike: phoe: https://github.com/keithj/alexandria/blob/master/numbers.lisp#L198-L200
2021-05-17T14:38:05Z phoe: oooooh
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2021-05-17T14:39:02Z Bike: but then your recursion depth is log2 n, or something, instead of n, and it's not as obvious a compiler optimization question
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2021-05-17T14:42:39Z loli: that bisect function looks fun, the general technique can be had with any associative operator, though it seems specific to bignums here, wonder if you can put branch prioriteis that reduce to big-num checking in this case for that
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2021-05-17T14:55:11Z jackdaniel: checking for fixnum (as it is) will be usually fast thanks to the immediate object tagging (optimization technique)
2021-05-17T14:57:42Z pfdietz: Not only do you get fewer bignums, but the bignums are smaller.   The sum of the number of bits in the bignums at each depth is log n!.
2021-05-17T14:58:57Z pfdietz: Vaguely reminiscent of computing the nth Fibonacci number in O(log n) arithmetic operations.
2021-05-17T14:59:44Z jcowan: it's the same underlying principles.
2021-05-17T15:01:32Z jcowan: Of course in languages like C and Java, you just grab a table of values of these functions less than 2^63, and you have O(1).  Only in languages with automatic promotion to bignums do any such algorithms make sense.
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2021-05-17T15:04:23Z Bike: or just up to 20, since otherwise the result won't fit in 64 bits. so easy
2021-05-17T15:05:26Z jcowan: Right, that's why I spoke of values
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2021-05-17T15:06:24Z rpg: If there are any other ITERATE fans out there, I just created a 1.5.1 that has a bunch of modest bug fixes.
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2021-05-17T15:07:12Z pfdietz: We use iterate.  Thanks.
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2021-05-17T15:07:35Z Bike: oh, whoops
2021-05-17T15:09:04Z pfdietz: I have a branch of iterate I need to have merged back into master.  It makes iterate work with a modified version of cover.  Someday.
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2021-05-17T15:10:37Z Bike: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/iterate/iterate/-/commit/d5f83a9985d7f22c786a95016ba2aa275195baa2 does allegro have a ccl package?
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2021-05-17T16:00:23Z flip214: rpg: thanks! would it be possible to also provide some compat with CL-WHO with ITERATE, eg. by loading an ITERATE+CL-WHO system that's included with ITERATE?
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2021-05-17T16:03:18Z daphnis_: how does one use lquery to get the text of <span class="foo"> ?
2021-05-17T16:03:28Z rpg: flip214: Maybe.... I'm not familiar with CL-WHO myself.  It might be more appropriate to make a "cl-who/iterate" system and keep everything with the "cl-who" system, if you can get buy in from the cl-who developers.  Otherwise there's no reason you couldn't make a "iterate+cl-who" that is free-standing and that :depends-on both iterate and cl-who.
2021-05-17T16:03:51Z rpg: Bundling a bunch of stuff with ITERATE is probably the wrong thing, unless we want to set up contribs for it.
2021-05-17T16:04:27Z rpg: But testing would be an enormous PITA, because it would require *forward* dependencies, which is why I think it would be better to keep this either with cl-who or freestanding.j
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2021-05-17T16:22:10Z splittist: daphnis_: with a combination of has-class and text ? (something like [untested] (lquery:$ *doc* "span" (has-class "foo") (text)) (which will give you all the text of all spans of class "foo", I think).
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2021-05-17T16:34:50Z daphnis_: splittist: thanks!  it may be that #'combine is required
2021-05-17T16:35:10Z splittist: daphnis_: it depends what you want
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2021-05-17T16:44:01Z daphnis_: splittist: well, without (text) ((and combine)) i get T; with what you suggested i get: ``there is no applicable for the generic function .. text when called with arguments (T)
2021-05-17T16:44:36Z daphnis_: s/applicable/& method/
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2021-05-17T16:49:07Z splittist: daphnis_: fair enough (: I guess I meant to say "span.foo" (text)
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2021-05-17T17:34:21Z aun: why dont find and find-if return 2 values (same as say gethash) as it would make sense? That frustrates me.
2021-05-17T17:36:53Z Bike: i dunno. on a list you can use member instead.
2021-05-17T17:38:26Z aun: well yeah but on arrays...as you know I m covering stl so It looks like I have to reimpl find from the ground
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2021-05-17T18:01:10Z rpg: Does clisp have a funny way of loading files? Does anyone know? I have files that even SBCL will load that mention late in the file symbols in packages that don't exist until the first half has been executed, that clisp is erroring on.
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2021-05-17T18:04:14Z rpg: I was wondering if clisp is running the full file through the reader before evaluation, instead of reading and evaluating as it goes.
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2021-05-17T18:24:10Z etimmons: rpg: I think it's the `-c -l` in the clisp options.
2021-05-17T18:24:47Z etimmons: That's making it do compile-file and the load-system has no compile time effect
2021-05-17T18:25:34Z etimmons: removing those I still get an error, but the new error makes me think it's at least trying to load the system
2021-05-17T18:28:27Z rpg: etimmons: When I try to take that out I get GNU CLISP: -l without -c is invalid
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2021-05-17T18:29:16Z etimmons: No -l needed
2021-05-17T18:29:20Z etimmons: `lispscript [argument ...] - load script, then exit`
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2021-05-17T18:36:03Z rpg: etimmons: Yeah, ugly pathname issue *** - TRANSLATE-PATHNAME: replacement pieces
2021-05-17T18:36:03Z rpg:       ((:DIRECTORY "Users" "rpg" "lisp" "iterate") "package" "fas" :NEWEST) do not fit into
2021-05-17T18:36:05Z rpg:       #P"/Users/rpg/lisp/iterate/test/cache/**/*.*"
2021-05-17T18:37:58Z etimmons: rpg: Yep, that's what I got too. No easy solution for that from me.
2021-05-17T18:38:24Z rpg: I am not sure whether `:here` works in Fare's DSL. If so I think I have this.
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2021-05-17T18:40:50Z etimmons: Speaking of pathname issues, I recently ran into another. looks like UIOP's various wildcard pathnames don't have the same semantics across implementations.
2021-05-17T18:41:11Z etimmons: Haven't had the time to figure out if that's an impossible ask, implementation bugs, or UIOP bugs, though.
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2021-05-17T18:48:52Z rpg: etimmons: It's happening inside the processing of output translations. Beyond that :shrug:
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2021-05-17T18:56:20Z etimmons: rpg: My issue is with cl:directory / uiop:directory*. I'll open an issue once I investigate it a bit more.
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2021-05-17T19:01:34Z rpg: etimmons: Thanks!
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2021-05-17T19:15:58Z pfdietz: rpg: if you could look at https://github.com/pfdietz/iterate (master) there are some changes I'd like merged into iterate.  Or.. where do I send a pull request?
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2021-05-17T19:17:00Z rpg: pfdietz: It's here https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/iterate/iterate
2021-05-17T19:17:44Z rpg: That's on gitlab, so if you would prefer to post a patch to an issue, that would be ok. I don't know how well gitlab and github play together.
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2021-05-17T19:23:03Z pfdietz: Ok.
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2021-05-17T22:42:40Z Josh_2: Theres some writing somewhere about design patterns, maybe by Norvig, saying that design patterns are a consequence of poor flexibility in the language, something like that
2021-05-17T22:42:48Z Josh_2: does anyone have a link? I'm tryna send it to a friend
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2021-05-17T22:47:59Z Josh_2: Think I found it
2021-05-17T22:51:33Z Josh_2: Nope :sad:
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2021-05-17T23:54:38Z mfiano: http://norvig.com/design-patterns/
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2021-05-18T01:29:58Z Josh_2: mfiano: thanks
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2021-05-18T01:47:06Z pjb: Josh_2: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/ee09f8475bc7b2a0 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.programming/msg/9e7b8aaec1794126
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2021-05-18T03:02:13Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-05-18T05:18:05Z flip214: rpg: understood. Do you have the code to make ITERATE "understand" (or just allow?) CL-WHO:HTM?
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2021-05-18T05:49:08Z engblom: I found this: https://common-lisp.net/project/iterate/doc/Don_0027t-Loop-Iterate.html#Don_0027t-Loop-Iterate. Is this article biased or does the channel agree?
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2021-05-18T06:19:05Z engblom: Is anyone of you here responsible for https://riptutorial.com/common-lisp/example/21976/the-do-loop ?
2021-05-18T06:29:33Z moon-child: beach: in your fast generic dispatch paper, why do you use two words instead of one for a general instance?  I don't quite see the rationale; and it increases memory use and indirection
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2021-05-18T06:30:29Z moon-child: and if you were to use two words, why not make the stamp be the first word and place the class in the rack?  That way you can prefetch the rack before beginning the dispatch process, and only need to wait for one memory access
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2021-05-18T06:35:01Z saturn2: engblom: i think there are mixed opinions on iterate, some people like it and some don't
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2021-05-18T06:37:47Z phoe: engblom: this tutorial is shit
2021-05-18T06:37:55Z phoe: these examples do not even compile
2021-05-18T06:38:08Z phoe: please abandon ship and use something that actually works, e.g. PCL
2021-05-18T06:38:57Z engblom: phoe: I know, that is why I asked if someone here is responsible for it. I wanted to PM that person with corrections
2021-05-18T06:39:30Z phoe: engblom: the footer of that webpage has hints
2021-05-18T06:39:44Z phoe: doesn't look like it's updateable.
2021-05-18T06:43:16Z engblom: phoe: I stumbled upon it when trying to find a clean and simple construct that allows me to first bind variables and then repeat until condition is met. (do ...) seems to check the condition before the loop, so it does not do what I want.
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2021-05-18T06:43:37Z phoe: engblom: you could try LOOP for that
2021-05-18T06:44:08Z phoe: (loop for x in '(1 3 5 7 8 9 11 13 15) do (print x) when (evenp x) do (loop-finish))
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2021-05-18T06:47:55Z engblom: phoe: I am searching for the equivalent of (loop [x "foo" y "bar] (do-something-with x y) (when something (recur)))
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2021-05-18T06:49:08Z moon-child: what do you mean by (when something (recur))?
2021-05-18T06:49:57Z phoe: engblom: (loop with x = "foo" with y = "bar" unless something (do ...))
2021-05-18T06:50:36Z engblom: moon-child: That was Clojure, and I am searching for how to do it in CL. So something cleaner than (let (()) (loop ....  (return)))
2021-05-18T06:50:52Z phoe: oh wait, RETURN aborts the looping altogether
2021-05-18T06:51:02Z phoe: you want something that breaks the loop or just a single iteration?
2021-05-18T06:52:18Z engblom: phoe: I am searching for a way to bind a few variables and then at least once do the iteration, but keep iterating until a condition is met (which is coming from actually reading some information and got nothing to do with the loop variables)
2021-05-18T06:52:57Z phoe: that's what I wrote above, (loop ... when ... do (loop-finish))
2021-05-18T06:53:08Z engblom: Okay, thanks!
2021-05-18T06:53:24Z phoe: execute that example in the CL REPL and see that after the even number nothing else is printed, the iteration is terminated
2021-05-18T06:53:55Z moon-child: you can also do (loop with ... do ... until ...)
2021-05-18T06:54:22Z flip214: TAGBODY for the win!   No, in reality I'm an ITERATE user.
2021-05-18T06:55:05Z engblom: moon-child: Thank you, that was what I was looking for!
2021-05-18T06:55:32Z phoe: moon-child: oh right, I actually didn't think about this one!
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2021-05-18T06:58:17Z pjb: engblom: (loop with i = 0 while (< i 10) collect (incf i)) #| --> (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10) |#
2021-05-18T06:59:07Z pjb: engblom: (with-input-from-string (*standard-input* "1 1 1 1 0") (loop with i = 0 while (plusp (read)) collect (incf i))) #| --> (1 2 3 4) |#
2021-05-18T06:59:43Z beach: engblom: I use LOOP for everything.  I see no reason to use an external library when the standardized operator will do.
2021-05-18T06:59:56Z moon-child: pjb: the collect/do should be before the condition
2021-05-18T07:00:01Z moon-child: engblom wants the loop to always run at least once
2021-05-18T07:00:16Z pjb: engblom: or of course, if you want until:  (with-input-from-string (*standard-input* "1 1 1 1 0") (loop with i = 0 collect (incf i) until (zerop (read)))) #| --> (1 2 3 4 5) |#
2021-05-18T07:00:29Z pjb: moon-child: right.
2021-05-18T07:00:30Z beach: moon-child: You have to be able to change the class and the instance contents without changing the identity.
2021-05-18T07:00:57Z pjb: engblom: Note you can move the while after:  (with-input-from-string (*standard-input* "1 1 1 1 0") (loop with i = 0 collect (incf i) while (plusp (read))))  #| --> (1 2 3 4 5) |#
2021-05-18T07:01:20Z pjb: engblom: while/until is just whether you test the stop condition or it's negation.
2021-05-18T07:01:44Z pjb: engblom: You can also have while or until in the middle, or several of them.
2021-05-18T07:01:52Z beach: moon-child: The stamp and the class must evolve separately.  The stamp is the unique number of the class as it was when the instance was created, and it is used to detect obsolete instances.
2021-05-18T07:01:53Z moon-child: beach: that shouldn't be an issue as long as you don't change the number of cells in the object
2021-05-18T07:01:56Z engblom: pjb: Thank you, now it makes more sense!
2021-05-18T07:02:15Z pjb:  (with-input-from-string (*standard-input* "1 1 1 1 1 1 1 0") (loop with i = 0 while (plusp (read)) collect (incf i) while (plusp (read)) collect 0 while (plusp (read)))) #| --> (1 0 2 0 3) |#
2021-05-18T07:02:52Z pjb: engblom: the best is to read clhs format
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2021-05-18T07:03:13Z pjb: s/clhs format/clhs loop/
2021-05-18T07:03:39Z pjb: and section 6.1 The LOOP Facility
2021-05-18T07:03:55Z pjb: clhs 6.1
2021-05-18T07:03:55Z specbot: The LOOP Facility: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/06_a.htm
2021-05-18T07:04:11Z beach: moon-child: But the number of cells change as a result of either change-class or class redefinition.
2021-05-18T07:05:05Z engblom: pjb: Many times I have looked at the clhs but very often I have trouble understanding it. Often I end up searching for examples instead. As I get more used to CL I hope to get better at reading clhs too
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2021-05-18T07:07:21Z beach: moon-child: There is also an issue with threads.  I want the rack to be self-contained, so that a thread that needs to modify the structure of a rack is obliged to allocate a new rack and assign it to the header using CAS.
2021-05-18T07:08:28Z moon-child: I see
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2021-05-18T07:09:49Z beach: There has to be an indirection, but it might be possible to make it work with a single word.  But then, the GC for the global heap allocates these headers and also CONS cells in a free list, so that they won't move.  Because they are all the same size.
2021-05-18T07:10:21Z pjb: engblom: the trick when learning a programming language, is to write the examples oneself.
2021-05-18T07:10:38Z pjb: engblom: so you read a clhs page, and try examples at the REPL right awaya.
2021-05-18T07:10:42Z pjb: s/a./.
2021-05-18T07:11:00Z pjb: engblom: this is what I just did above with those loops…
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2021-05-18T07:13:54Z engblom: beach: What is your opinion about alexandria?
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2021-05-18T07:14:53Z beach: engblom: I have no opinion about it.  I haven't used it much, but some of the libraries I use, use Alexandria as well, so I use it indirectly.
2021-05-18T07:15:03Z pjb: engblom: what is YOUR opinion about alexandria?
2021-05-18T07:15:42Z engblom: pjb: I am new to CL, so I do not have much opinion yet, but I found iota and when-let to be useful from alexandria, and later maybe I find something else there I would use too.
2021-05-18T07:16:00Z pjb: ok. So: useful.
2021-05-18T07:16:22Z engblom: pjb: I am mostly trying to find out what I in general accepted and not accepted so I do not develop bad habits from the beginning.
2021-05-18T07:17:24Z pjb: Don't worry.
2021-05-18T07:20:37Z beach: engblom: Alexandria is used a lot, so I think it must be fine.
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2021-05-18T07:22:10Z splittist: beach: so is C (used a lot)
2021-05-18T07:23:32Z splittist realises he has been under a misapprehension about the ordering of unconditional and termination-test clauses in LOOP (and wonders how many over-complicated loops he can rewrite...)
2021-05-18T07:23:48Z beach: engblom: Alexandria is used a lot by some Common Lisp programmers that I respect a lot because they write maintainable and modular code, so I think it must be fine.
2021-05-18T07:23:51Z splittist: engblom: but Alexandria is great, in case you misunderstood me (:
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2021-05-18T07:35:35Z shka_: alexandria is perhaps the least controversial utility library there is
2021-05-18T07:36:06Z shka_: and implements a lot of functions that are used by almost everyone
2021-05-18T07:36:22Z shka_: like shuffle, hash-table-keys/hash-table-values and so one
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2021-05-18T07:40:06Z engblom: Then I will continue to use alexandria with good conscience.
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2021-05-18T07:42:25Z shka_: yes, i don't think anybody will ever criticize you for using the alexandria
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2021-05-18T08:21:15Z jdz: engblom: I see nobody has suggested PROG yet, so: (prog ((x "foo") (y "bar")) recur (do-something-with x y) (when something (go recur)) (return return-value))
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2021-05-18T08:24:24Z engblom: jdz: Thanks!
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2021-05-18T08:38:38Z phoe: oh boy, I see explicit control flow
2021-05-18T08:38:50Z phoe: PROG is useful for writing simple state machines
2021-05-18T08:39:13Z phoe: this includes iteration
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2021-05-18T09:00:31Z pjb: beach: perhaps of interest (or not):  The Sociology of Programming Languages (2014) <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4Gsl8sVgdQ>
2021-05-18T09:01:51Z beach: Yes, thanks!
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2021-05-18T10:33:01Z jmercouris: I'm trying to think of the simplest way to do something, I have a plist (:a 1 :b 2)
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2021-05-18T10:33:06Z jmercouris: and I want to get the result (1 2)
2021-05-18T10:33:11Z jmercouris: by passing in the input (:a :b)
2021-05-18T10:33:29Z jmercouris: I could write a loop with getf
2021-05-18T10:33:34Z jmercouris: is there a better way?
2021-05-18T10:35:13Z jmercouris: that is; (loop for i in '(:a :b) collect (getf '(:a 1 :b 2) i))
2021-05-18T10:37:34Z jackdaniel: (loop for (key val) on list by #'cddr when (member key '(:a :b)) collect val)
2021-05-18T10:37:38Z jmercouris: there is a when missing from the list
2021-05-18T10:37:38Z jmercouris: yes
2021-05-18T10:37:42Z jmercouris: I just realized!
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2021-05-18T10:44:49Z pjb: (let ((plist '(:a 1 :b 2))) (mapcar (lambda (key) (getf plist key)) '(:a :b))) #| --> (1 2) |#
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2021-05-18T10:45:01Z flip214: jmercouris: if the plist becomes very long, you might want to transform it to a hash-table or so before doing the lookups
2021-05-18T10:45:16Z jmercouris: plist is only 2-10 elements
2021-05-18T10:45:28Z pjb: so no need for a hash-table, it wouldn't cover the cost.
2021-05-18T10:46:02Z jmercouris: agreed.
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2021-05-18T10:53:52Z flip214: how many lookups will there be? 10 concurrent elements in a plist but a few thousand lookups might be different again...
2021-05-18T10:54:28Z jackdaniel: for small tables hashing cost may be bigger than simple traversal
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2021-05-18T11:03:00Z flip214: jackdaniel: eg. SBCL stores a hash value for symbols, so for keywords it's just following a pointer.
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2021-05-18T11:51:08Z pjb: Of course, if what you want is this: (let ((plist '(:a 1 :b 2)) (keys '(:a :b :a :a :a :b :b :b :a :a :a :b :a)))  (mapcar (lambda (key) (getf plist key)) keys)) #| --> (1 2 1 1 1 2 2 2 1 1 1 2 1) |#
2021-05-18T11:52:06Z pjb: But still with 5 or fewer entries, getf is faster than gethash, because gethash has to compute a sxhash, which is slow compared to 5 compare and 5 memory fetches…
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2021-05-18T12:35:55Z engblom: If I want to know where the code I am running is stored, can I do it? In my case I want to find by code where the package is so I am able to give the full path to the settings directory inside of the package.
2021-05-18T12:36:30Z engblom: Right now I have it hardcoded with (defparameter ..)
2021-05-18T12:37:03Z engblom: Like this: (defparameter project-root "~/common-lisp/gpon")
2021-05-18T12:37:20Z phoe: you can locate ASDF systems
2021-05-18T12:37:26Z phoe: not individual packages
2021-05-18T12:37:56Z phoe: on my machine, (asdf:system-source-directory :phoe-toolbox) ;=> #P"/home/phoe/Projects/Lisp/phoe-toolbox/"
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2021-05-18T12:40:20Z engblom: phoe: Thanks
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2021-05-18T12:52:41Z engblom: Besides first converting to string (with namestring) and then concatenating the directory I want, can I add to that path in a more elegant way?
2021-05-18T12:53:15Z pjb: Sure.
2021-05-18T12:54:33Z pjb: (merge-pathnames #P"*.lisp" (asdf:system-source-directory :alexandria) nil) #| --> #P"/Users/pjb/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/alexandria-20210411-git/*.lisp" |#
2021-05-18T12:54:52Z pjb: (first (directory (merge-pathnames #P"**/*.lisp" (asdf:system-source-directory :alexandria) nil))) #| --> #P"/Users/pjb/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/alexandria-20210411-git/alexandria-1/arrays.lisp" |#
2021-05-18T12:54:56Z engblom: pjb: Thanks!
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2021-05-18T12:55:17Z pjb:  (merge-pathnames #P"alexandria-1/arrays.lisp" (asdf:system-source-directory :alexandria) nil) #| --> #P"/Users/pjb/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/alexandria-20210411-git/alexandria-1/arrays.lisp" |#
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2021-05-18T12:55:39Z pjb: engblom: note if the item you want is a file in the directory, you can also use make-pathname directly:
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2021-05-18T12:56:24Z engblom: pjb: I actually want a specific file: settings/meprof.lisp inside of the source directory
2021-05-18T12:56:36Z pjb:  (make-pathname :name "arrays" :type "lisp" :version nil :defaults  #P"/Users/pjb/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/alexandria-20210411-git/alexandria-1/") #| --> #P"/Users/pjb/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/alexandria-20210411-git/alexandria-1/arrays.lisp" |#
2021-05-18T12:56:48Z pjb: engblom: in that case merge-pathnames as indicated.
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2021-05-18T12:57:08Z pjb: (merge-pathnames #P"settings/meprof.lisp" *source-dir* nil)
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2021-05-18T12:58:34Z engblom: pjb: Thanks, that does exactly what I want
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2021-05-18T15:11:28Z engblom: I want to define a function that takes an optional argument. In case the argument is not given I want it to have a default value. The first part I know I can do with &optional, but how do I get the default value unless it is given? Can I do it directly in the function definition or do I need a separate if statement that checks if it is nil and then sets it to the default value?
2021-05-18T15:12:21Z beach: (defun (&optional (parameter default-value-form)) ...)
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2021-05-18T15:12:50Z engblom: beach: Thanks!
2021-05-18T15:12:51Z beach: engblom: And the only place where Common Lisp has "statements" is in a TAGBODY.
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2021-05-18T15:14:02Z beach: clhs 3.4.1
2021-05-18T15:14:02Z specbot: Ordinary Lambda Lists: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_da.htm
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2021-05-18T15:16:27Z beach: And you wouldn't check whether the parameter is NIL.  You would use the SUPPLIED-P-PARAMETER instead as that page indicates.
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2021-05-18T15:32:11Z pjb: beach: engblom: it's a little mischevious to say that there are statements in tagbody.  They're just usual expressions whose values are ignored, just like most expressions in progn, prog1, prog2, prog, prog*, progv, locally, block, catch, unwind-protect, etc, etc, etc.
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2021-05-18T15:32:38Z pjb: granted they used the non-terminal name /statement/, but that's all.  Just to distinguish those expressions from the tags.
2021-05-18T15:33:40Z pjb: well, ok, prog and prog* use tagbody so they also have those expressions called /statement/…
2021-05-18T15:34:27Z beach: I couldn't really say something like "Common Lisp does not have `statements'", because of that non-terminal.
2021-05-18T15:35:08Z beach: Also, they are not arbitrary forms.  They have to be compound forms.
2021-05-18T15:36:07Z splittist: tagbody; RETURN is referred to as a statement; PROG, PROG* also use 'statement' as a compound form; SETQ is referred to as the 'simple variable assignment statement of Lisp'... (:
2021-05-18T15:36:42Z Nilby: Maybe declarations are sort of like statements since they don't have value?
2021-05-18T15:37:00Z pjb: but declaratons are not evaluated.
2021-05-18T15:37:44Z beach: Nilby: No, such things are referred to as "expressions" and not "forms".
2021-05-18T15:37:49Z pjb: and cannot be: (locally (declare (special *f*))  (print 'hi) (declare (type integer *f*)) (print 'lo)) #| hi ERROR: While compiling an anonymous function : The DECLARE expression (declare (type integer *f*)) is being treated as a form, possibly because it's the result of macroexpansion. DECLARE expressions can only appear in specified contexts and must be actual subexpressions of the containing forms. |#
2021-05-18T15:37:54Z pjb: Note, it says FORM, not STATEMENT.
2021-05-18T15:39:17Z pjb: Expressions that return no values, such as (values) 1- are still called expressions, 2- are still expression in that they still produce a value if a value is expected: (list (values) (values) (values)) #| --> (nil nil nil) |#   and 3- are still valid in any place an expression is valid.   And therefore cannot be called statements.
2021-05-18T15:39:44Z pjb: The difference between statement vs. expression exist in languages where they are not interchangeable.
2021-05-18T15:40:44Z pjb: For example, in C, you cannot write: int a=0; b=if(a<0){return 3;}else{ return 4;}    because if is a statement.  (you have to write int a=0; b=(a<0)?3:4;  since ?: is an operator for an expression.
2021-05-18T15:41:11Z splittist: (And GO is referred to as a statement, of course, which is where we started.)
2021-05-18T15:42:35Z pjb: GO is a special operator.  A GO form such as  (GO foo)  is an expression.  Even if it does not return, it is still an expression: it can be used anywhere an expression can.
2021-05-18T15:43:40Z beach: pjb: No, it can not.  But it can be used anywhere a FORM can be used.
2021-05-18T15:43:40Z splittist: "[PROG and PROG*] permit use of the return statement, and they permit use of the go statement."
2021-05-18T15:44:35Z splittist: "statement" looks like one of those terms that was intended to be a glossary entry, but never made it in.
2021-05-18T15:45:23Z beach: Note to self: in WSCL define STATEMENT in the glossary, or eliminate the use of the term.  If the term is retained, make sure it is used the same way everywhere.
2021-05-18T15:45:46Z pjb: expression n. 1. an object, often used to emphasize the use of the object to encode or represent information in a specialized format, such as program text. ``The second expression in a let form is a list of bindings.'' 2. the textual notation used to notate an object in a source file. ``The expression 'sample is equivalent to (quote sample).''
2021-05-18T15:45:46Z pjb: form n. 1. any object meant to be evaluated. 2. a symbol, a compound form, or a self-evaluating object. 3. (for an operator, as in ``<<operator>> form'') a compound form having that operator as its first element. ``A quote form is a constant form.''
2021-05-18T15:45:52Z pjb: beach: indeed, by these definition.
2021-05-18T15:46:19Z pjb: I used a more restrictive definition of expression = form, in the controverse expression vs. statement.
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2021-05-18T15:48:48Z Nilby: I am disappoint. (values) is a lie
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2021-05-18T15:52:39Z pjb: Nilby: half a lie: (values) #| |#   (let ((x (values))) x) #| --> nil |#   But note: (let (x) x) #| --> nil |#
2021-05-18T15:53:18Z pjb: or again: (multiple-value-call (function list) (values) (values 1 2) (values) (values 3 4) (values)) #| --> (1 2 3 4) |#
2021-05-18T15:53:28Z pjb: so really, values returns nothing.
2021-05-18T15:55:22Z Nilby: so there's secretly a nil already sitting in every form?
2021-05-18T15:55:33Z phoe: in every form? what do you mean
2021-05-18T15:56:00Z phoe: missing values are coerced into NIL, there's no secret NILs anywhere
2021-05-18T15:56:24Z phoe: (multiple-value-bind (a b c d) (values) (list a b c d)) ;=> (NIL NIL NIL NIL)
2021-05-18T15:56:50Z Nilby: (values) is actually a value then i.e. a #<novalue> object
2021-05-18T15:57:06Z phoe: not really?
2021-05-18T15:57:29Z Nilby: how can one coerce a thing that doesn't exist?
2021-05-18T15:58:01Z phoe: in a simple way - conceptually, every function returns an implicit vector of values
2021-05-18T15:58:05Z phoe: most of the time, it is a vector of length 1
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2021-05-18T15:58:11Z phoe: (values) returns a vector of length 0
2021-05-18T15:58:46Z phoe: and if you normally try to get a 1st element of a 0-length vector, that would be an error - instead, CL defines that to return NIL in case of missing values
2021-05-18T16:00:13Z Nilby: I know it's just a weird philosophical point, but "no values" is actually a value in a way.
2021-05-18T16:00:40Z phoe: not a first-class thing in CL though
2021-05-18T16:01:14Z phoe: unless you use MULTIPLE-VALUE-CALL, at which point you still operate on lists and not on "no values" objects
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2021-05-18T16:02:25Z Nilby: we have accessor "values" for a thing which supposedly isn't there
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2021-05-18T16:05:05Z Nilby: I find it interesting that (locally) -> nil
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2021-05-18T16:05:25Z phoe: it's just defined to be this way, same as (setq) and (progn) and what else
2021-05-18T16:05:47Z phoe: but we also have SETF for places, which aren't a first-class concept either
2021-05-18T16:07:16Z pjb: multiple values are implemented by storing them in registers, with a register holding the count of values.
2021-05-18T16:07:24Z Nilby: but I can accept that setf forms are a macro expansion to something with values
2021-05-18T16:07:38Z pjb: say, mv-count mv-0 mv-1 mv-2 …
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2021-05-18T16:08:22Z pjb: so when you write (setf x (values)) it does (funcall (function values)) (setf x (if (zerop mv-count) nil mv-0))
2021-05-18T16:09:30Z pjb: If you write (multiple-value-setq (x y z) (values 1 2))  it does  (funcall (function values) 1 2) (setf x (if (zerop mv-count) nil mv-0) y (if (< mv-count 2) nil mv-1) z (if (< mv-count 3) nil mv-2))
2021-05-18T16:11:38Z pjb: it's not a vector or a list in the sense that it's not a lisp object, it's just registers. (But that can also be memory storage, when there are not enough registers), since the minimal value for multiple-values-limit is 20, and people are still buying processors without as many registers…
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2021-05-18T16:13:24Z Nilby: I know how it works both interpreted and compiled, but on an abstract level I feel like (values) is a hole in the logical consistency of Lisp.
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2021-05-18T16:15:30Z beach: Yeah, lets update the standard.
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2021-05-18T16:17:58Z pjb: Nilby: that's the point of CL: it's full of inconsistency, so that it's compatible with existing code, and it let implementations easily be fast.
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2021-05-18T16:28:37Z Nilby: I love that CL has multiple values, it's very useful. (values) just feels like a weird Gödel-like thing in McCarthy's lovely universal function. Although I guess all the special operators are logically troublesome. Even quote is weird.
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2021-05-18T16:30:31Z beach: Nilby: It is not a special case.  That form returns 0 values.  The general rule is that of more values are required by the caller than what the callee supplies, then the remaining values required are initialized to NIL.
2021-05-18T16:30:45Z phoe: Nilby: I wonder why it's weird
2021-05-18T16:31:14Z phoe: (values) is to (values 1 2 3) like (m-v-b (x) (values) ...) is to (m-v-b (a b c x) (values 1 2 3) ...)
2021-05-18T16:31:34Z phoe: you request more values than you have, so you get NIL for the missing ones
2021-05-18T16:31:36Z beach: Nilby: So if the caller wants one value and the callee does (values) when it returns, then NIL is what the caller gets.
2021-05-18T16:31:49Z phoe: doesn't matter if it's the 0th or the 1st or the 42th value (if your implementation permits 42 values)
2021-05-18T16:32:14Z ebrasca: Did someone try to run reddit1.0?
2021-05-18T16:32:16Z phoe: still seems consistent to me
2021-05-18T16:32:25Z phoe: ebrasca: I did, the official release doesn't build
2021-05-18T16:32:42Z splittist: As was pointed out before, it's a logical extension of the concept, like (+) (:
2021-05-18T16:32:44Z phoe: it needs some fixes and what else in order to even compile, and it doesn't run even after it compiles
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2021-05-18T16:33:16Z ebrasca: phoe: Do you think it is good software? Or is it better to start from scrach?
2021-05-18T16:33:43Z phoe: ebrasca: reddit 1.0 is written like a quick hack, I'd definitely do a lot of refactoring on it if I ever wanted to use that codebase
2021-05-18T16:34:32Z ebrasca: phoe: Did you see this one https://github.com/tamurashingo/reddit1.0 ?
2021-05-18T16:35:04Z phoe: ebrasca: nope, didn't see it, I don't know how this one works.
2021-05-18T16:35:39Z ebrasca: It loads , but I get some error when creating the DB.
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2021-05-18T16:37:11Z ebrasca: phoe: Thanks!
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2021-05-18T16:40:06Z ebrasca: phoe: How is you CL spec going?
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2021-05-18T16:42:13Z phoe: ebrasca: at the moment it isn't, too many other things going on
2021-05-18T16:42:53Z ebrasca: phoe: Some day I like to go to krakow and see you.
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2021-05-18T17:58:37Z Josh_2: pjb: Thanks for the links. Its a real shame that those groups dont support any sort of syntax highlighting, makes them a pig to read
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2021-05-18T18:25:04Z kagevf: jmercouris: get-properties is another way to process plists: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/beyond-lists-other-uses-for-cons-cells.html
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2021-05-18T19:34:25Z pjb: Josh_2: yes, you have to copy and paste in emacs… Sorry.
2021-05-18T19:34:48Z pjb: Josh_2: eventually I will copy them and reformat them, but until then…
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2021-05-18T19:54:07Z pjb: Reader macros for shell commands: #! and !  https://ideone.com/wtHikt
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2021-05-18T20:35:53Z White_Flame: when paredit won't let you delete because it thinks there's an imbalanced parenthesis, how can you get it to show where that imbalance is?
2021-05-18T20:36:12Z White_Flame: I have a file that's mostly comments, and something in there is confusing paredit
2021-05-18T20:36:41Z phoe: I don't usually have that problem because I use rainbow-parens and I identify missing parens by color
2021-05-18T20:36:55Z White_Flame: I don't have any imbalances, and paredit thinks there are
2021-05-18T20:37:07Z White_Flame: not even the comments have imbalanced parens
2021-05-18T20:37:19Z phoe: huh! interesting
2021-05-18T20:37:34Z White_Flame: but I do use #| |#, which paredit doesn't handle well
2021-05-18T20:38:42Z Nilby: emacs sometimes up if you have something like the re "^(defun" in docstring or in a multi-line comment
2021-05-18T20:38:52Z Nilby: messes up
2021-05-18T20:39:17Z White_Flame: again, all parens are balanced, even in the comments.  Paren balanced scope doesn't even traverse multiple lines
2021-05-18T20:39:28Z White_Flame: I want paredit to show me where it thinks the imbalance is, if possible
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2021-05-18T20:40:27Z Nilby: It can't because it would have to fix it's own bug
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2021-05-18T20:41:06Z White_Flame: clearly there is a location where it transitions from "balanced" to "imbalanced"
2021-05-18T20:41:35Z Nilby: yes, but it's using regular expressions so it doesn't know wtf is actually going on
2021-05-18T20:41:43Z White_Flame: oh, well that sucks then
2021-05-18T20:41:57Z Nilby: it's only been screwing up for 40 years
2021-05-18T20:42:02Z White_Flame: heh
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2021-05-18T20:42:26Z White_Flame: regex is such a hack when used on larger things
2021-05-18T20:42:35Z Nilby: I've had to change my comment/docstring formmating until emacs stops failing
2021-05-18T20:42:57Z phoe: oh wait, I think I know what's the issue
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2021-05-18T20:43:09Z White_Flame: hmm, yeah I think I just fixed it, too.  change "|#" to ";;|#" and now it stops whining
2021-05-18T20:43:30Z phoe: do you have any lines in a docstring that begin with an open parenthesis?
2021-05-18T20:43:45Z Nilby: nice. fake it out with a double comment
2021-05-18T20:43:50Z phoe: I remember that this used to trip my emacs up
2021-05-18T20:43:53Z White_Flame: no.  this is 100% comments, and no paren pair spans lines
2021-05-18T20:43:55Z phoe: but might be a different problem
2021-05-18T20:43:58Z phoe: OK, I see
2021-05-18T20:44:22Z phoe: but is ;;#| valid Lisp? like, does this properly start a multiline comment?
2021-05-18T20:44:36Z White_Flame: it's the ending multiline tag
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2021-05-18T21:00:27Z pjb: phoe: nope. ; starts a single line comment. It doesn't matter what's on this line.
2021-05-18T21:01:10Z pjb: Nilby: the advice is to use \( when you have to put a parenthesis at the start of a line in docstrings.
2021-05-18T21:01:23Z pjb: "\(foo)" --> "(foo)"
2021-05-18T21:02:15Z pjb: Reader macros can imbalance paredit, which still uses emacs forward-sexp/backward-sexp instead of a CL lexer/parser.
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2021-05-18T21:36:17Z engblom: I know I have once before asked but I forgot: what is the difference between :use and #:use in defpackage?
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2021-05-18T21:39:56Z pjb: engblom: :use is a defpackage option name. #:use is nothing.
2021-05-18T21:40:08Z pjb: engblom: read:
2021-05-18T21:40:10Z pjb: clhs defpackage
2021-05-18T21:40:11Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpkg.htm
2021-05-18T21:40:25Z pjb: notably, follow the links string designator, package designator.
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2021-05-18T21:43:21Z engblom: pjb: Thanks, I found the use of #:use but it must then be specific to mgl-pax:define-package, which is used in that file
2021-05-18T21:43:46Z phoe: that's not a standard CL operator so it is allowed to do whatever
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2021-05-18T22:07:15Z engblom: I will have to use multiple return values. Does CL have destructuring as in Clojure? (meaning I can have something like (defun adding ((x y)) (+ x y)) and then call it with the result of a multivalue function)?
2021-05-18T22:07:43Z phoe: engblom: the usual way is to use multiple-value-call
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2021-05-18T22:07:49Z phoe: destructuring and multiple values are separate concepts in CL
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2021-05-18T22:08:10Z phoe: (multiple-value-call #'+ (values 1 2 3)) ;=> 6
2021-05-18T22:08:35Z phoe: note that #'+ is a regular function
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2021-05-18T22:08:47Z phoe: it's multiple-value-call that does all the magic
2021-05-18T22:08:56Z engblom: Thanks!
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2021-05-18T22:14:40Z kagevf: that's interesting ... so (m-v-c fn (values ...)) is like (apply fn (list ...)) ??
2021-05-18T22:14:51Z Bike: yes.
2021-05-18T22:15:30Z engblom: I am looking at https://github.com/keithj/alexandria/blob/master/package.lisp. Why do all the exported functions got #:function-name instead of just :function-name?
2021-05-18T22:16:17Z Bike: the things in defpackage are string designators, so symbols have no meaning beyond their symbol name, so #:f and :f are the same to defpackage
2021-05-18T22:16:29Z Bike: the only difference is that with #:f there will not be a symbol interned in the keyword package
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2021-05-18T22:18:35Z engblom: I am sorry, but I can not comprehend that. What is the keyword package?
2021-05-18T22:19:24Z Bike: When you write :foo that is short for keyword:foo
2021-05-18T22:19:44Z Bike: keyword is a special package. all the symbols in it are constants with themselves as values. that's why if you put :foo in the repl you get :foo back.
2021-05-18T22:20:12Z kagevf: you can also do (multiple-value-call #'+ 1 2 3) ... m-v-c will take all the values of any forms ... it's like it does the (values ...) for you
2021-05-18T22:20:35Z kagevf: nice flexibility
2021-05-18T22:22:38Z engblom: Bike: :foo
2021-05-18T22:22:39Z engblom: Unknown top-level command: "foo".
2021-05-18T22:22:56Z Bike: uhhhhh, what implementation is that?
2021-05-18T22:23:02Z engblom: sbcl
2021-05-18T22:23:15Z Bike: are you in the debugger or something?
2021-05-18T22:23:25Z Bike: i just started a fresh sbcl in terminal and it did what i'd expect
2021-05-18T22:23:42Z engblom: No, I am not in the debugger
2021-05-18T22:24:01Z engblom: But I am inside of a package, if that matters?
2021-05-18T22:24:03Z pjb: yeah, sbcl debugger is a little psychopathic.
2021-05-18T22:24:11Z Bike: it shouldn't
2021-05-18T22:24:12Z pjb: This is why slime sldb was developped…
2021-05-18T22:24:27Z Bike: the repl is trying to interpret forms as commands for some reason
2021-05-18T22:24:36Z Bike: well, you can do (eval :foo), probably, to get the same idea
2021-05-18T22:24:54Z engblom: That works.
2021-05-18T22:24:54Z pjb: Well, (eval ':foo) to be sure.
2021-05-18T22:25:14Z pjb: Since eval is a function :foo would be evaluated before its value being passed to eval…
2021-05-18T22:25:14Z engblom: But what is #:foo then?
2021-05-18T22:25:41Z pjb: (let ((x '#:foo)) (setf (symbol-value x) 42) (eval x)) #| --> 42 |#
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2021-05-18T22:25:54Z Nilby: sbcl debugger doesn't do that
2021-05-18T22:26:10Z pjb: Or: (progn (setf (symbol-value '#1=#:foo) 42) (eval '#1#)) #| --> 42 |#
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2021-05-18T22:27:18Z Nilby: ccl debuger does though
2021-05-18T22:27:51Z pjb: correct.
2021-05-18T22:27:54Z pjb: sorry.
2021-05-18T22:28:49Z Bike: #:foo is an uninterned symbol
2021-05-18T22:29:18Z Bike: meaning it's not in any package
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2021-05-19T00:34:06Z nij: Hello! I cannot figure out why flet fails to bind a function in a lexical environment: https://bpa.st/3VPQ .. While evaluated, it complains that #'adhoc-test is unbound.
2021-05-19T00:34:29Z Bike: satisfies works with global function names
2021-05-19T00:35:00Z Bike: typep is just a function, so it doesn't know anything about the lexical environment it's called in
2021-05-19T00:35:08Z nij: Oh.... yeah now I remember: "which must be a symbol whose global function definition is a one-argument predicate." http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/t_satisf.htm#satisfies
2021-05-19T00:35:22Z nij: sigh. I see. Thank you.
2021-05-19T00:37:35Z nij: Bike:  what would you do to type-test in this scenario, in which "3" and "2" appearing in the def of adhoc-test might vary at run time?
2021-05-19T00:37:55Z Bike: i would not use typep, mostly
2021-05-19T00:38:27Z nij: :-O what would you use then?
2021-05-19T00:38:49Z Bike: (eql 0 (mod (- n 3) 2)) is fine by itself
2021-05-19T00:38:57Z Bike: or (zerop (mod (- n 3) 2)), rather
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2021-05-19T00:41:39Z nij: I'm actually writing something that allows the user to put predicates in config.
2021-05-19T00:42:03Z nij: I thought common lisp's type specifiers are comprehensive enough so did use it..
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2021-05-19T00:42:21Z nij: Now it will take some time to redo this decision.
2021-05-19T00:42:47Z nij: Anyway, do we really need #'typep? It feels very restrictive when I cannot put any lambdas there.
2021-05-19T00:43:08Z nij: My program worked fine, until I an extension is needed recently.
2021-05-19T00:43:28Z nij: .. if typep isn't comprehensive, then I will not use it in the future at all.
2021-05-19T00:44:08Z nij: Instead, I might have to use/write something called an e-satisfies-p (e for error).
2021-05-19T00:44:21Z nij: What do you think/recommend?
2021-05-19T00:50:00Z saturn2: typep is useful for the things it is meant for. it's not meant to express every possible predicate
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2021-05-19T00:51:56Z saturn2: i think SATISFIES is kind of a half-baked afterthought and was probably a mistake to include in the standard
2021-05-19T00:53:22Z nij: saturn2: I'm curious. what do you thing typep is meant for then?
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2021-05-19T00:55:26Z saturn2: testing whether an object is of the type specified by a type specifier
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2021-05-19T01:40:37Z Bike: i mean if you're writing your own function anyway you can just use that
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2021-05-19T01:40:56Z Bike: why bother with satisfies or typep in that case? all it does is make your program longer
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2021-05-19T01:41:25Z Bike: like what does that add
2021-05-19T01:43:44Z aeth: Type specifiers are very powerful, even without satisifies
2021-05-19T01:44:03Z aeth: e.g. you can define ZEROP via a TYPEP
2021-05-19T01:44:40Z aeth: (or (real 0 0) (complex (real 0 0)))
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2021-05-19T01:54:46Z MrtnDk[m]: aeth  The function REAL is undefined.
2021-05-19T01:55:28Z aeth: MrtnDk[m]: it's a TYPEP
2021-05-19T01:55:32Z aeth: quote it
2021-05-19T01:55:54Z aeth: (typep 0.0 '(or (real 0 0) (complex (real 0 0))))
2021-05-19T01:55:58Z MrtnDk[m]: Like '(or (real 0 0) (complex (real 0 0))) ?
2021-05-19T01:56:22Z MrtnDk[m]: I have no experience with typep.
2021-05-19T01:58:20Z aeth: yes
2021-05-19T01:58:23Z aeth: another way to do it: (deftype zero () '(or (real 0 0) (complex (real 0 0))))
2021-05-19T01:58:26Z aeth: (typep 0 'zero)
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2021-05-19T02:02:49Z aeth: It's its own DSL
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2021-05-19T02:06:36Z Bike: since complex types work in an upgradey way, i think (typep (complex 7d0) '(complex (real 0 0))) could be true in some implementation
2021-05-19T02:06:48Z Bike: er, (complex 7d0 7d0) i guess
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2021-05-19T02:21:07Z nij: I'm still not sure about how TYPE and a general PREDICATE distinguisher differ..
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2021-05-19T02:23:27Z Bike: what do you mean
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2021-05-19T03:04:41Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-05-19T03:04:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: morning, beach!
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2021-05-19T07:04:43Z ebrasca: What does "Class USER has a key that is not also a slot." mean?
2021-05-19T07:09:26Z phoe: in which context does this message appear?
2021-05-19T07:10:34Z ebrasca: http://ix.io/3nhA
2021-05-19T07:11:33Z phoe: I have no idea what DAO-CLASS is, but I assume that it's a typo problem between USER-ID versus USER-IP
2021-05-19T07:11:42Z phoe: or rather, IDA versus ID in line two
2021-05-19T07:13:38Z ebrasca: I did try to change id to ida.
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2021-05-19T07:14:10Z ebrasca: DAO-CLASS is a Postmodern
2021-05-19T07:14:24Z ebrasca: thing
2021-05-19T07:14:33Z beach: Why does it not have a package prefix?
2021-05-19T07:15:42Z ebrasca: (:import-from :postmodern :dao-class)
2021-05-19T07:16:03Z beach: ebrasca: My guess is that the metaclass requires you to have a slot named user-id, but your slot is named ida.
2021-05-19T07:16:22Z beach: I see.
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2021-05-19T07:18:24Z beach: ebrasca: So by importing that symbol, you med it impossible for both phoe and me to determine that this symbol came from Postmodern.
2021-05-19T07:18:32Z beach: *you made it
2021-05-19T07:18:50Z phoe: beach: eh, it's OK once he mentioned where it came from
2021-05-19T07:19:06Z beach: I don't agree.
2021-05-19T07:19:07Z phoe: I guess that postmodern docs should be able to solve this problem, or maybe someone with more postmodern dao experience
2021-05-19T07:19:11Z beach: I think it's a bad idea.
2021-05-19T07:19:40Z phoe: beach: honestly I think the same, but I know everything I need once he mentioned the import
2021-05-19T07:19:54Z ebrasca: beach: I don't understand you!
2021-05-19T07:20:41Z beach: phoe: Sure, but ebrasca is also contributing to SICL, and the style guide for SICL, explicitly calls for explicit package prefixes, possibly using package-local nicknames.
2021-05-19T07:20:48Z ebrasca: I will not ask if i did kvow how to fix it.
2021-05-19T07:21:06Z phoe: beach: I don't think this code is a part of SICL
2021-05-19T07:21:12Z beach: It is not.
2021-05-19T07:21:21Z phoe: then why expect SICL style on non-SICL code
2021-05-19T07:21:45Z beach: But if ebrasca doesn't understand the reason for the rule, then it is likely going to be a problem in the SICL contributions too.
2021-05-19T07:22:04Z ebrasca: beach: I am starting to fix reddit1.0 ...
2021-05-19T07:22:13Z phoe: that's a different problem I guess
2021-05-19T07:22:16Z beach: OK, I'll be quiet.
2021-05-19T07:30:28Z ebrasca: beach: Your style guide is a bit bad. See this one https://lisp-lang.org/style-guide/ , I think it is more easy to understand.
2021-05-19T07:30:52Z beach: Yes, I understand.
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2021-05-19T07:33:21Z ebrasca: Why Line length of 80? Is it not to sort for CL?
2021-05-19T07:33:47Z beach: It's not important.
2021-05-19T07:33:48Z ebrasca: Why not 100?
2021-05-19T07:33:57Z beach: I mean, it is not important why I want that.
2021-05-19T07:34:16Z beach: I promised to be quiet.
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2021-05-19T07:38:48Z ebrasca: beach: Why do you need to be agresive?
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2021-05-19T07:40:11Z beach: I am not trying to be aggressive.  I am just tired of arguing stuff like this, over and over.  I made up my mind about the SICL style guide.  Saying that it is "bad" is not helping.
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2021-05-19T07:41:08Z ebrasca: I did not say it is all bad , I did say it is a "bit" bad.
2021-05-19T07:41:39Z Nilby: I like line length 80 because my eyes aren't great and I want to be able look at multiple pages side by side on a laptop. ... or underwater. in the dark. through a straw. :)
2021-05-19T07:42:08Z beach: And I would have to explain why I prefer what I wrote, to the guide in the link that you posted.  And, like I said, I am really, really tired of that.
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2021-05-19T07:42:48Z ebrasca: You don't need to read that guide , why 80?
2021-05-19T07:43:28Z ebrasca: Today the screens are biger. ( 1920x1080 is normal one I think )
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2021-05-19T07:44:15Z flip214: ebrasca: read what Nilby wrote.
2021-05-19T07:44:15Z minion: flip214, memo from rpg: I don't have any experience with CL-WHO, so I don't know what ITERATE would do with it, but there are relatively easy-to-use extension capabilities in ITERATE.
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2021-05-19T07:44:56Z Nilby: I even sometimes read code on *gasp* a website or a phone
2021-05-19T07:45:06Z ebrasca: flip214: I have read it!
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2021-05-19T07:49:30Z ex_nihilo: ebrasca: I usually have two panes open side-by-side in emacs when I am coding; 80 cols works great for that on my laptop, but much wider and I start to have line-wrapping problems
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2021-05-19T07:52:36Z ebrasca: I did not think about smaller screens , in screen I can fit 160 with two panes side by side so thinked 140 is ok.
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2021-05-19T07:55:14Z Nilby: at 1920 two 160 pange has only leaves 6 pixel chars
2021-05-19T07:55:23Z flip214: ebrasca: lisp code is much denser than other programming languages, so line breaks (and indentation) is a valuable tool to show relations between forms; I think having too much stuff in one line is harmful.
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2021-05-19T07:55:55Z flip214: Nilby: sometimes I change an xterm to a 1-pixel font - so that I can do graphics via writing spaces and X's ;)
2021-05-19T07:56:29Z ebrasca: What do you do if "(defun name (args)" is to long?
2021-05-19T07:56:32Z Nilby: flip214: me too! in color even
2021-05-19T07:57:10Z flip214: ebrasca: I break the args list into multiple lines
2021-05-19T07:57:32Z flip214: Nilby: because libaa is so... 1980ies, right??  ;)
2021-05-19T07:57:42Z Nilby: Also 1 or 2 pixel fonts are good for editor minimaps, which also add to the width on-screen.
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2021-05-19T07:58:43Z splittist: Ahh! That's how they do it.
2021-05-19T08:01:08Z pjb: flip214: or, you can use unicode: ▖▗▘▙▚▛▜▝▞▟
2021-05-19T08:03:30Z Nilby: thats what my text  mode image viewer does :) it's not to bad with 24bit color
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2021-05-19T08:06:07Z flip214: pjb: much too complex.
2021-05-19T08:06:18Z flip214: pjb:  10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
2021-05-19T08:06:20Z ebrasca: Nilby: How did you know I have 6 pixel chars?
2021-05-19T08:07:00Z Nilby: ebrasca: I'm bad at math, but my REPL isn't
2021-05-19T08:07:02Z jdz: ebrasca: (/ 1920 (* 2 160))
2021-05-19T08:07:34Z ex_nihilo: ebrasca: if a lambda list is too long, you could put arguments on multiple lines, but that could also be a sign that your function is trying to do too much; maybe two functions would be better
2021-05-19T08:08:21Z jdz: ebrasca: https://daniel.haxx.se/blog/2020/11/30/i-am-an-80-column-purist/
2021-05-19T08:08:32Z flip214: ex_nihilo: that quickly degenerates into a function that prepares some object with lots of args, and then a function that consumes such an object and only a few args... which is not better, IMO
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2021-05-19T08:10:19Z ex_nihilo: flip214: I don't mean that you should solve the problem of long lists of arguments by adding function definitions; I meant that when you have long lists of arguments you should _consider_ whether you have the best design
2021-05-19T08:11:21Z ebrasca: Function names can get long.
2021-05-19T08:11:51Z flip214: well, DRAKMA comes to my mind - and a HTTP request may need lots of refinement.
2021-05-19T08:12:21Z phoe: when they get too long and there is too many of them I tend to cut them in half and create a new package
2021-05-19T08:13:23Z jdz: phoe: Divide and conquer!
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2021-05-19T08:17:48Z ebrasca: There is people using "(when (not ..." , "(unless (not ..." and "(not (not ..."
2021-05-19T08:19:16Z ebrasca: Why?
2021-05-19T08:20:34Z moon-child: ebrasca: people people use all of those in english
2021-05-19T08:20:51Z moon-child: (that said I think not not is probably never justified in lisp)
2021-05-19T08:21:01Z phoe: moon-child: in Lisp, notnot means that we want something of type BOOLEAN, not a generalized boolean
2021-05-19T08:21:05Z phoe: which means, either T or NIL
2021-05-19T08:21:28Z beach: So without arguing a particular width, I think the purpose is to minimize the amount of white space (without changing the preferred names) so that the maximum amount of information can be presented to the programmer.  Now, we can just go count the fraction of white space to non-white space for different widths.
2021-05-19T08:22:11Z beach: phoe: That would be weird.  (not (null ...)) sure, but not (not (not ...)) because in the last case, ... should already be Boolean.
2021-05-19T08:22:46Z phoe: oh right, sorry
2021-05-19T08:23:13Z phoe: same effect, but different meaning
2021-05-19T08:23:14Z beach: But I see no reason for (when (not ...) ...) or (unless (not ...) ...).
2021-05-19T08:23:20Z jdz: I (as a non-native English speaker) can only comprehend UNLESS with simple test-forms.
2021-05-19T08:23:30Z beach: I can see (when (null ...) ...) and (unless (null ...) ...)
2021-05-19T08:23:54Z beach: Yes, UNLESS seems to be hard for some non-native speakers of English.
2021-05-19T08:24:05Z jdz: If there is an AND or OR involved, I'm in trouble.
2021-05-19T08:24:37Z flip214: beach: In german it's uncommon to say "außer ...."; I notice that I don't use UNLESS. I feel much more comfortable with (IF (NOT ...)) which corresponds to the German "Wenn nicht 'alles gut ist', 'sage Fehler'" example.
2021-05-19T08:24:47Z jdz: And have to resort to converting UNLESS into WHEN and do the boolean transformations of the test-form.
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2021-05-19T08:25:22Z flip214: I sometimes try both (NOT (AND ...)) and (OR (NOT ) (NOT )) to see which is more readable
2021-05-19T08:25:36Z phoe: I generally avoid UNLESS AND and UNLESS OR and convert it to WHEN OR and WHEN AND whenever possible
2021-05-19T08:25:48Z engblom: I saw  https://lisp-lang.org/style-guide/ mentioned. There is actually one thing I wish it had: better instructions for how to achieve the 100 character limit per line. Like recommendations on how to split longer forms, how to handle longer docstrings, max number of forms/line etc.
2021-05-19T08:25:49Z flip214: beach: I guess that's Sapier-Whorf, then ;)
2021-05-19T08:26:03Z beach: flip214: I understand.  I use (IF (NOT ...) as well, but not as a replacement for UNLESS.  I use it when there is both a `then' and an `else' form, and I have reasons to care about the order of the two.
2021-05-19T08:26:05Z flip214: phoe: that's what beach said and I wrote just after him, too
2021-05-19T08:26:30Z phoe: flip214: yes - I can see the sentiment
2021-05-19T08:26:34Z ex_nihilo: beach: if you wanted a bool instead of a list from MEMBER, wouldn't you use (NOT (NOT (MEMBER ...)))?
2021-05-19T08:26:49Z phoe: ex_nihilo: preferably NOT NULL MEMBER
2021-05-19T08:26:59Z jdz: ex_nihilo: You'd use IF?
2021-05-19T08:27:04Z flip214: ex_nihilo: what would you do differently with that bool?
2021-05-19T08:27:17Z beach: ex_nihilo: Yes, I think what phoe said.  But there are problematic cases, as usual.
2021-05-19T08:28:11Z beach: ex_nihilo: I tend to pretend that MEMBER returns a Boolean, and I would use FIND if I want some object.
2021-05-19T08:28:27Z beach: But again, there are problematic cases.
2021-05-19T08:29:56Z jdz: I think I'd use either (if (member ...) t nil), or (not (null (member ...))) instead of double NOT.
2021-05-19T08:30:16Z jdz: If I really had to have a boolean.
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2021-05-19T08:36:29Z beach: engblom: Like I said, the idea would be to minimize the fraction of white space to non-white space.  You introduce newlines as required.  If the newlines leave too much space to the right, you have too many.  If have too much indentation, you have too few.
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2021-05-19T08:56:22Z ebrasca: beach: Do you plan to add some style cheker in climacs?
2021-05-19T08:56:41Z ebrasca: beach: Do you plan to add all your rules?
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2021-05-19T09:00:28Z pjb: beach: if you want to convert a generalized boolean to a boolean, (not (not gb)) is indicated.  It is hard to justify (not (null gb)) in that case, because gb is a boolean, so a boolean operator such as NOT is indicated.
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2021-05-19T09:00:49Z pjb: writing (not (null gb)) would be punning.
2021-05-19T09:01:07Z pjb: (which is usual in lisp so nobody would complain, but (not (not gb)) is more correct).
2021-05-19T09:02:12Z ebrasca: What about (atom (member ...)) ?
2021-05-19T09:02:52Z pjb: atom returns a generalized boolean.
2021-05-19T09:03:30Z ebrasca: So (atom ...) in better than (not (not ...))
2021-05-19T09:03:36Z beach: ebrasca: I haven't thought about it much.  It is certainly higher priority to work on the code itself.
2021-05-19T09:03:55Z pjb: ebrasca: no, it's worse.
2021-05-19T09:04:02Z ebrasca: pjb: Why?
2021-05-19T09:04:07Z pjb: ebrasca: we're discussing generalized boolean to boolean conversion.
2021-05-19T09:04:26Z ebrasca: atom gives T if it is not nil.
2021-05-19T09:04:36Z pjb: nope.
2021-05-19T09:04:40Z beach: I think "generalized Boolean" is a semantic term, and not a "moral" one.
2021-05-19T09:05:18Z ebrasca: we need the oposite of null
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2021-05-19T09:05:38Z pjb: ATOM may very well return (you dummy bastard) when x is not a cons cell. (atom 't) #| --> :failed |#  (atom "hello") #| --> generalized |#  (atom 'nil) #| --> boolean |#   (atom '(a . d)) #| --> nil |#
2021-05-19T09:06:36Z pjb: We definitely will need to do something like that in bocl :-)
2021-05-19T09:08:31Z beach: That's a cute idea.  Make an implementation that does everything that is allowed by the standard in the most non-obvious way.
2021-05-19T09:08:49Z beach: ... so as to catch as much non-conforming code as possible.
2021-05-19T09:09:28Z beach: Er, I mean "That's a cute idea.  Make an implementation that does everything that is allowed by the standard, but in the most non-obvious way"
2021-05-19T09:10:09Z beach: ... possibly short of erasing the home directory when a construct is undefined.
2021-05-19T09:10:36Z pjb: To be a conforming implementation any undefined behavior must be defined and documented.
2021-05-19T09:10:50Z beach: Oh, sure.  But that can be done.
2021-05-19T09:11:13Z beach: It can be documented, even if it is "outrageous".
2021-05-19T09:11:32Z pjb: At least, the implementation could print funny messages.
2021-05-19T09:12:03Z beach: "If AREF is passed an object that is not an array, then a short snippet of "Jingle bells" is played to the speaker".
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2021-05-19T09:12:20Z beach: Stuff like that.
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2021-05-19T09:17:01Z heisig: The Common Lisp equivalent of Bastard Tetris (http://fph.altervista.org/prog/bastet.html) :D
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2021-05-19T09:17:50Z heisig: It always performs (within the rules of the standard) the least helpful move.
2021-05-19T09:17:51Z Nilby: We had very similar design for "Audible Objectible INTERCAL".
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2021-05-19T09:24:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: beach: I've often thought randomizing things where the spec leaves order unspecified would be useful
2021-05-19T09:25:17Z beach: Yeah, I like the idea.
2021-05-19T09:25:55Z beach: Such a thing would definitely generate more interest for WSCL. :)
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2021-05-19T09:26:20Z beach: Because people are generally unaware how many such situations there are.
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2021-05-19T09:48:38Z MichaelRaskin: That reminds mostly wimplementation of POSIX
2021-05-19T09:48:42Z jmercouris: let us ratify a new superset called "Most Common Lisp"
2021-05-19T09:48:45Z ebrasca: I don't like LaTeX.
2021-05-19T09:48:52Z jmercouris: that clears up all of these undefined areas
2021-05-19T09:49:07Z jmercouris: and then someone can come up with a "Even More Common Lisp"
2021-05-19T09:49:12Z jmercouris: ad nauseum
2021-05-19T09:49:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: "Malicious Common Lisp"
2021-05-19T09:50:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: everything left unspecified is implemented as evily as possible
2021-05-19T09:50:39Z jmercouris: "ML" for short
2021-05-19T09:50:44Z pjb: You can do funny things: do something different each time.
2021-05-19T09:50:44Z pjb:  
2021-05-19T09:50:50Z beach: jmercouris: How is it a "superset"?
2021-05-19T09:50:58Z beach: I would think more a subset.
2021-05-19T09:51:01Z jmercouris: well, it includes all of Common Lisp, and then some more functions
2021-05-19T09:51:02Z ebrasca: BL "best lisp"
2021-05-19T09:51:06Z jmercouris: for example, it would include typos
2021-05-19T09:51:15Z beach: Ah.
2021-05-19T09:51:17Z jmercouris: so if you type (lsit xyz) instead of (list xyz) it would do something differenet
2021-05-19T09:51:24Z jmercouris: s/differenet/different
2021-05-19T09:51:30Z MichaelRaskin: EnMCL
2021-05-19T09:51:44Z pjb: For the limits, they could be random, or be parameter of the program  evicl --array-total-size-limit=1060
2021-05-19T09:52:08Z jmercouris: everything must be divisible by 69 or 420
2021-05-19T09:52:19Z pjb: :-)
2021-05-19T09:52:55Z ebrasca: Integers need to be prime numbers.
2021-05-19T09:53:52Z jmercouris: 11
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2021-05-19T09:55:28Z ebrasca: 13
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2021-05-19T10:00:47Z flip214: (DEFUN RANDOM (x) (declare (ignore x)) 0)
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2021-05-19T10:17:12Z jmercouris: even better, use the time as a 'random' value
2021-05-19T10:19:48Z flip214: jmercouris: but that would actually change (from time to time)!
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2021-05-19T10:20:06Z flip214: well, just use the rounded-down value to whole days, that's another level of unexpectedness there
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2021-05-19T10:21:18Z jmercouris: Lol, it’s a good thing we’re not language designers
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2021-05-19T10:34:59Z phoe: that's a very dangerous statement
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2021-05-19T11:55:24Z ldbeth: good evening
2021-05-19T11:58:37Z dim: jmercouris: see http://p-nand-q.com/programming/languages/java2k/index.html and other "languages" there for inspiration and awes
2021-05-19T12:07:24Z ldbeth: I heard using uninitialized memeroy region as random implementation
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2021-05-19T12:15:14Z jmercouris: fantastic language lol, I like it
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2021-05-19T13:47:07Z jackdaniel: uh, it seems that freenode got hijacked by some ethically dubious people
2021-05-19T13:47:47Z aeth: years ago
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2021-05-19T13:49:05Z jackdaniel: I'm not sure what you are talking about, but my remark is about current affairs.
2021-05-19T13:50:35Z phoe: I guess that aeth means that the initial step for that was made in 2017 and this fact blossoms now in 2021
2021-05-19T13:50:49Z beach: What are the consequences to the users?
2021-05-19T13:50:56Z splittist: quite
2021-05-19T13:51:12Z phoe: Freenode as a whole goes into unknown hands of some commercial entity
2021-05-19T13:51:17Z jackdaniel: malicious party may/will monetize data (all former ircops resigned)
2021-05-19T13:51:20Z phoe: and lots of freenode staff quit to form libera.chat
2021-05-19T13:51:36Z phoe: which currently is unavailable, presumably due to being swamped with traffic and/or DoSed
2021-05-19T13:51:38Z lukego: Hey I don't seem to have the OUTPUT function that CL-SMT-LIB expects me to at https://github.com/GrammaTech/cl-smt-lib/blob/master/cl-smt-lib.lisp#L84. Seems like it's expected to be exported by GRAY-STREAMS but isn't? anyone know what gives?
2021-05-19T13:51:54Z phoe: OUTPUT? where would that be from?
2021-05-19T13:52:08Z lukego: Accessor on a two-way stream to get the output stream side
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2021-05-19T13:52:30Z phoe: https://github.com/GrammaTech/cl-smt-lib/blob/master/fundamental-two-way-stream.lisp#L9
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2021-05-19T13:52:59Z phoe: seems to be defined here
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2021-05-19T13:53:51Z lukego: I ownder why I'm getting The function CL-SMT-LIB/CL-SMT-LIB::OUTPUT is undefined.
2021-05-19T13:54:04Z phoe: wrong package
2021-05-19T13:54:16Z phoe: it's from package :cl-smt-lib/fundamental-two-way-stream
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2021-05-19T13:55:06Z lukego: ah indeed. looks like a bug in CL-SMT-LIB that they have multiple packages and aren't sharing symbols between them as they should. thanks for helping!
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2021-05-19T13:56:00Z phoe: maybe it's a feature that it doesn't have a god package that reexports everything from everything else
2021-05-19T13:56:07Z phoe: one could argue that it's proper modularity
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2021-05-19T13:59:01Z lukego: well, sure, but the WITH-SMT macro generates code that errors because it puts the OUTPUT symbol from the wrong package in function-position
2021-05-19T13:59:09Z phoe: !
2021-05-19T13:59:12Z phoe: now that is a bug indeed
2021-05-19T13:59:28Z lukego: but I'll fix that and send a PR (assuming it's broken in the latest code from github, checking now)
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2021-05-19T14:00:38Z lukego: yeah same deal there, fixing..
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2021-05-19T14:04:19Z lukego: oh hm I think this code was never debugged, also errors with EOF-ERROR-P on READ not being threaded through where it needs to go
2021-05-19T14:04:46Z pfdietz: I'll chastise Eric. :)
2021-05-19T14:05:03Z splittist: close enough for government (DARPA) work (:
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2021-05-19T14:07:07Z lukego: and this is a bit too tangled for me. there's a recursive call to READ-CHAR first to a gray stream and then to a native stream, and EOF-ERROR-P is not threaded between them, such that the inner call errors on EOF while the outer call is expecting it to return :eof. Maybe needs a condition handler there instead?
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2021-05-19T14:07:14Z lukego: splittist :D
2021-05-19T14:07:33Z pfdietz: A problem I've found with those smt interfaces is making sense of the model it sends back.  The format is often idiosyncratic.
2021-05-19T14:07:45Z lukego: but the code I'm complaining about is in SBCL and not cl-smt-lib
2021-05-19T14:08:21Z lukego: what is that imgur site that the cool people here are using?
2021-05-19T14:08:41Z flip214: lukego: for text pasting or images?
2021-05-19T14:08:45Z lukego: images
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2021-05-19T14:09:04Z flip214: I use https://imgbb.com/
2021-05-19T14:09:23Z lukego: what with me being all millennial-wannabe and using PNG instead of TXT for error message reporting
2021-05-19T14:11:34Z lukego: anyway I'm lost as to where the bug is - SBCL, CL-SMT-LIB, or gray streams? - but if you'd run something like (cl-smt-lib:with-smt (smt ("z3"))) then you'd get an error like https://ibb.co/wz9TQ2S where EOF-ERROR-P is being lost on the stack
2021-05-19T14:12:22Z lukego does a little more digging
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2021-05-19T14:17:53Z lukego: okay, I think I'm onto it...
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2021-05-19T14:44:18Z contrapunctus: I've been cultivating a Lisp room on Jabber/XMPP for a while, if anyone wants to join. xmpp:lisp@conference.a3.pm?join (it's not CL-specific like this room, though...much too small a community for that at the moment.)
2021-05-19T14:45:18Z Demosthenex: contrapunctus: while i do like xmpp over other chat solutions, i prefer irc ;]
2021-05-19T14:45:36Z Demosthenex: given freenode was bridging with matrix already, i wouldn't mind seeing people bridge xmpp
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2021-05-19T14:45:51Z beach: I feared that we were going to be split between matrix and libera.chat, but now it looks like we might get split in 3 instead.
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2021-05-19T14:46:30Z lukego: quick someone start a discord channel
2021-05-19T14:46:34Z phoe: doh
2021-05-19T14:46:36Z lukego ducks
2021-05-19T14:46:38Z phoe: it's been there for years
2021-05-19T14:46:56Z Demosthenex: beach: well, if libera is where freenode migrates too... that's fine
2021-05-19T14:47:55Z beach: Demosthenex: Except that it doesn't seem to have a matrix bridge, so it is not fine with people that are currently using such a bridge for freenode.
2021-05-19T14:48:13Z phoe: I assume that a matrix bridge for libera will happen soon enough
2021-05-19T14:48:23Z beach: Oh, OK.
2021-05-19T14:48:58Z beach: Then that would seem like my preferred solution, given my experience with the staff here in the past.
2021-05-19T14:49:08Z lukego: okay, there is a lot to fix in WITH-SMT, and since it's not actually documented to exist I'll just pretend that it doesn't
2021-05-19T14:49:11Z beach: But, I know nothing about matrix or discord.
2021-05-19T14:49:12Z phoe: I mean, that's the only logical assumption I can make
2021-05-19T14:49:21Z phoe: eventually it'll even itself out
2021-05-19T14:49:30Z Demosthenex: beach: otoh, the matrix bridge has been compared to when AOL added the internet ;] a new eternal september
2021-05-19T14:49:30Z lukego: (it's also not detecting crashes in the solver, e.g. when you specify one that's not installed, nor reading results properly)
2021-05-19T14:50:03Z Demosthenex: beach: you only need to know that matrix was written by webdevs, and that discord is facebook for gamers.
2021-05-19T14:50:31Z Bike: discord is more like irc than facebook
2021-05-19T14:50:37Z beach: Demosthenex: I am afraid I can't parse any of those sentences.  Probably due to ignorance of the subject on my part.
2021-05-19T14:51:40Z Demosthenex: beach: matrix made by developers who think comic sans and javascript are good ideas, and that every user needs a 500MB gui client where the theme is locked. discord is just please record everything i say for purposes of making money.
2021-05-19T14:51:52Z xristos: discord is proprietary spyware, also ruthlessly antithetical to any sort of custom client development
2021-05-19T14:52:23Z Demosthenex: xristos: like the process scanner which constantly reports what you are running to their server. nominally so it can update your icon for the game you're playing.
2021-05-19T14:52:25Z beach: I am starting to get the picture.
2021-05-19T14:52:30Z xristos: matrix is unusable for me, full of anti-patterns and none of IRC's simplicity and elegance (gasp!)
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2021-05-19T14:53:02Z Demosthenex: beach: matrix is made by devs who put crayons up their nose. ;]
2021-05-19T14:53:12Z MichaelRaskin: Matrix is perfectly usably with, say, weechat plugins, though
2021-05-19T14:53:15Z beach: I think no-defun-allowed will have some interesting remarks here.  I'll ask in #sicl.
2021-05-19T14:53:18Z Demosthenex: beach: and discord sold the crayons
2021-05-19T14:53:26Z xristos: MichaelRaskin: IRC is perfectly usable with netcat alone
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2021-05-19T14:53:55Z MichaelRaskin: Server-side history storage has its cost, apparently
2021-05-19T14:54:10Z beach: A necessary (but not sufficient) condition for me to join is that I can have my flyspell mode and my abbrevs.
2021-05-19T14:54:20Z MichaelRaskin: (in fact, proper server redundancy has its cost)
2021-05-19T14:54:58Z MichaelRaskin: https://github.com/alphapapa/matrix-client.el maybe
2021-05-19T14:54:59Z Demosthenex: i have a high opinion of xmpp.
2021-05-19T14:55:05Z MichaelRaskin: I don't use Emacs so no idea
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2021-05-19T14:56:49Z splittist: Back to BBSes and listservs
2021-05-19T14:57:32Z katco: full disclosure, i'm a matrix fan, but matrix is working on a binary protocol, and there are many clients, some of which are not bloated at all.
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2021-05-19T14:59:47Z contrapunctus: If anyone wants a better XMPP in their Emacs, do see if you'd like to contribute to this fork of jabber.el
2021-05-19T14:59:52Z contrapunctus: https://tildegit.org/wgreenhouse/emacs-jabber
2021-05-19T15:00:18Z phoe: ;; janitor announcement: I think that, given the current network-related disturbances, it would be sensible to relax the off-topic rule a little bit to involve IRC-and-alternatives and Freenode-and-alternatives-related discussion, at least until things calm down and clarify a little bit
2021-05-19T15:00:27Z phoe: s/involve/include/
2021-05-19T15:00:44Z contrapunctus: It merges some existing PRs and I migrated it to a literate Org program.
2021-05-19T15:00:54Z ChanServ changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/>
2021-05-19T15:00:56Z Jachy: There was even a clim client for matrix at one point, though it hadn't gotten very far last I tried it and I don't know what happened to it.
2021-05-19T15:01:23Z lukego hopes he will be able to just point his web browser at whatever the new venue does, which he does now via irccloud.com web client
2021-05-19T15:01:26Z Demosthenex: katco: my issue with matrix is reinventing the wheel, versus an evolving standard like xmpp with multiple non-web oriented clients and servers.
2021-05-19T15:01:53Z splittist is with lukego
2021-05-19T15:03:43Z katco: Demosthenex: i can't comment on the similarities between the xmpp and matrix protocol, though i used to use jabber a lot. but for me at least the argument doesn't sway me; both protocols are here now and should be evaluated on their merits. as an aside (and as a longtime freenode user before matrix), it's sad what's happening. but time goes on i suppose...
2021-05-19T15:03:46Z splittist also fears an escalating civil war of manifestos, codes of conduct, purity tests and purges, leading to a barren wasteland of chat...
2021-05-19T15:04:04Z Josh_2: Hello!
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2021-05-19T15:08:03Z katco: here are some matrix clients, almost all of which are not web-based: https://matrix.org/clients/
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2021-05-19T15:08:33Z contrapunctus: Josh_2: hello
2021-05-19T15:09:58Z katco: mozilla just switched to matrix, fosdem ran their last conference with matrix, gitter is now the matrix protocol, multiple governments are using matrix for interdepartmental communication. i think there's some momentum behind the protocol. that's my two cents, and i'll be quiet about it now :)
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2021-05-19T15:11:33Z Josh_2: I have quite an extensive bot written for Matrix, all in CL ofcourse
2021-05-19T15:11:47Z Josh_2: because until spaces launches properly its uh pretty rubbish
2021-05-19T15:12:19Z katco: Josh_2: the beta is out now. i've been using it a few days and it seems nice.
2021-05-19T15:13:07Z Josh_2: My community hasn't completely swapped to matrix, but its nice for me as my bot implemented invite only communities, along with a whole host of other features
2021-05-19T15:13:28Z Josh_2: means I dont have to maintain all that nonsense and can just focus on making cool features
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2021-05-19T15:16:05Z Josh_2: IRC is better though
2021-05-19T15:16:17Z Demosthenex: katco: there's momentum behind AOL IM, MSN, and Skype too... my point is federated open protocols with varied clients and servers are more durable, ie: email
2021-05-19T15:16:27Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-05-19T15:16:30Z Demosthenex: katco: yet IM networks have an average 3-5 year life span before replacement
2021-05-19T15:16:48Z Demosthenex: Josh_2: i have a xmpp bridge written in CL for our Factorio server ;]
2021-05-19T15:17:31Z katco: Demosthenex: sorry, i think that's a false equivalency. matrix is an open, federated, protocol with varied clients?
2021-05-19T15:17:49Z katco: aol, msn, and skype were/are all closed protocols owned by a single company
2021-05-19T15:18:37Z Demosthenex: katco: i mean new kid on the block syndrome and reinvent the wheel. i haven't seen anything matrix added that xmpp doesn't already have
2021-05-19T15:18:49Z Demosthenex: or couldn't just be one more XEP
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2021-05-19T15:19:03Z aeth: it's about time to write lispnet, I guess
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2021-05-19T15:19:10Z MichaelRaskin: Demosthenex: properly multi-server rooms
2021-05-19T15:19:34Z MichaelRaskin: (which is where all the complexity came from…)
2021-05-19T15:19:36Z Demosthenex: MichaelRaskin: multiserver synced chat? yeah, given it's federated each chatroom is server local. what's your use case
2021-05-19T15:19:37Z beach quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-05-19T15:19:51Z Demosthenex: it's an interesting edge case ;]
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2021-05-19T15:20:07Z Bike: what are the lisp channels on these other services
2021-05-19T15:20:15Z MichaelRaskin: Demosthenex: use case is that in Matrix, matrix.org going down for a week does not take out #matrix:matrix.org
2021-05-19T15:20:46Z MichaelRaskin: (for users from other servers)
2021-05-19T15:21:38Z Demosthenex: MichaelRaskin: i'm afraid i don't find that compelling ;] if a federated server hosts a room, and it's down... then the room's down.
2021-05-19T15:21:57Z MichaelRaskin: No. It is not down
2021-05-19T15:21:58Z phoe: Bike: I know of #common-lisp:matrix.org on Matrix
2021-05-19T15:22:29Z Gnuxie[m]: Demosthenex: you don't understand how Matrix works, rooms aren't local to any server, room 'aliases' might be but they're irrelevant to the operation of the room
2021-05-19T15:22:39Z katco: Bike: https://matrix.to/#/#common-lisp:matrix.org?via=ponies.im&via=matrix.org&via=privacytools.io
2021-05-19T15:22:42Z Bike: and i just joined #lisp on libera.chat
2021-05-19T15:22:50Z Bike: i suppose i will find a matrix client
2021-05-19T15:23:03Z katco: at the very least we're sending freenode off properly: with one more flamewar XD
2021-05-19T15:23:11Z Bike: as god intended
2021-05-19T15:23:16Z katco: Bike: https://matrix.org/clients/ there are many
2021-05-19T15:23:23Z Bike: i saw your link, thank you
2021-05-19T15:23:25Z Demosthenex: Gnuxie[m]: i didn't claim to. i said they were reinventing the wheel. ;]
2021-05-19T15:23:46Z Bike: element, fractal, and neochat are the ones in arch repos, looks like
2021-05-19T15:24:07Z katco: Bike: element is definitely the reference client
2021-05-19T15:24:20Z katco: fractal is not really functional atm imo
2021-05-19T15:24:25Z katco: neochat is good i think? i haven't used it
2021-05-19T15:24:33Z Bike: oh, really? that's a shame, was going to try that one
2021-05-19T15:24:46Z Bike: i already use the discord web client and it hasn't left me with much love for electron, but oh well
2021-05-19T15:24:46Z katco: yeah, they just started over too =/
2021-05-19T15:24:56Z katco: i'm waiting for it to bake.
2021-05-19T15:25:09Z katco: if you don't mind a tab, element.io works well
2021-05-19T15:25:46Z katco: https://element.io that is
2021-05-19T15:26:17Z Shinmera: fwiw libera is currently being overrun with spammers, so
2021-05-19T15:26:35Z Bike: is the +n not working there or what
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2021-05-19T15:27:24Z MichaelRaskin: Pro-Freenode spammers, no less
2021-05-19T15:27:46Z Shinmera: Bike: just tons of accounts joining to spam one message.
2021-05-19T15:28:02Z MichaelRaskin: Demosthenex: you say they are reinventing the wheel because you do not understand the difference
2021-05-19T15:28:49Z Shinmera goes back to lichat
2021-05-19T15:29:03Z beach: So that's 5 rather than 2.  Oh well.
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2021-05-19T15:30:04Z Demosthenex: MichaelRaskin: that may be perfectly true. i got off the IM network churn long ago, every new network i am skeptical of and see little reason to change. there were hundreds before them, and i think email, irc, and xmpp are solid for my use
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2021-05-19T15:30:25Z Shinmera: beach: Can't waste this opportunity to advertise my own protocol :^)
2021-05-19T15:30:55Z beach: Sure.
2021-05-19T15:32:06Z beach: But it is looking more and more likely that I will be present in at most 1 out of 4 of 5 "chat rooms" dedicated to Lisp.
2021-05-19T15:33:13Z lukego: okay got cl-smt-solver working https://github.com/GrammaTech/cl-smt-lib/pull/4
2021-05-19T15:33:38Z Demosthenex: beach: well, you're appreciated anywhere you are, you've given me good advice before =]
2021-05-19T15:34:09Z beach: Thanks.
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2021-05-19T15:34:44Z jackdaniel: Demosthenex: the issue is that fragmenting a (former) freenode community would be a waste
2021-05-19T15:34:58Z beach: I can't agree more.
2021-05-19T15:35:56Z xristos: the dust will settle in a day or three, as long as its IRC and contains the majority of existing lisp channels, i'll be happy
2021-05-19T15:36:00Z jackdaniel: I will look around how things develop until next week and then I will decide; I personally consider only the "new" irc server vs matrix
2021-05-19T15:36:49Z Demosthenex: jackdaniel: i'm not advocating either way, we were talking xmpp vs matrix ;]
2021-05-19T15:36:51Z jackdaniel will move only two channels (#clim and #ecl), so probably not that much of an impact here
2021-05-19T15:36:52Z Cymew: I noticed now that my auto join was broken. I have missed what ever conversation has taken place here, but am now on libra.chat as well if anyone wants to migrate there.
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2021-05-19T15:36:56Z Demosthenex: as to the freenode issues, i'm being patient and will wait and see
2021-05-19T15:36:59Z Shinmera: Is there an equivalent on libera already? It could be a nice opportunity to avoid the #lisp vs #commonlisp debacle.
2021-05-19T15:37:13Z Bike: it's #commonlisp, because #lisp is being spammed to hell
2021-05-19T15:37:18Z Demosthenex: many channel operators are reserving their channels now there
2021-05-19T15:37:19Z Shinmera: ok, cool.
2021-05-19T15:37:25Z Demosthenex: and set +r to stop unregistered spam
2021-05-19T15:37:36Z Demosthenex: i've been helping #org-mode and ##aix
2021-05-19T15:37:43Z Bike: somebody joined #lisp and got op, and then left, so there's no op. good stuff
2021-05-19T15:37:53Z Shinmera: of course.
2021-05-19T15:37:54Z Demosthenex: but both channels i've said the same, wait and see. patience.
2021-05-19T15:37:57Z Shinmera: classic IRC fun :)
2021-05-19T15:37:58Z Demosthenex: have a backup plan
2021-05-19T15:38:12Z Bike: takes me back. i should slap the spammers about with a large trout
2021-05-19T15:38:27Z Shinmera: IRC is such a horrible protocol I really wish it weren't so successful
2021-05-19T15:38:40Z Cymew: Looks like +r worked fine for #rhel
2021-05-19T15:39:04Z aeth: Unfortunately, every alternative to IRC has to be "monetized" which usually means controlling the client so that ads and tracking can be inserted at some unspecified future point.
2021-05-19T15:39:15Z aeth: And "modern" which means web-and-smartphone-first
2021-05-19T15:39:42Z Shinmera: not really, but whatever you want to believe is fine.
2021-05-19T15:41:33Z Cymew: "Modern" does seem to imply web and smartphones first, indeed
2021-05-19T15:41:54Z Shinmera: while we're semi off-topic, I'm still pretty happy with the new trailer for Kandria that we released on Monday: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nf9Z4MPBbfc
2021-05-19T15:42:04Z Shinmera: even if it did take more of a chunk out of my lisp coding than I would've liked
2021-05-19T15:42:09Z aeth: "Modern" also means "minimalist", i.e. way too much padding and not many configuration options at all. Maybe none other than localization. You better hope that your language's datetime preferences are the datetime preferences you prefer!
2021-05-19T15:42:10Z Cymew: Sweet.
2021-05-19T15:42:17Z Demosthenex: Cymew: modern seems to imply blinding white background, huge amounts of wasted space, and variable fonts in clients requiring hundreds of megs of ram :P
2021-05-19T15:42:25Z Shinmera: Wish ELS had happened later so I could've showed it off then ;)
2021-05-19T15:42:43Z aeth: Demosthenex: or a "dark" theme that's white on a moderate blue, rather than white on black.
2021-05-19T15:42:48Z Cymew: Demosthenex: Yeah, that happens as well.
2021-05-19T15:42:58Z Demosthenex: "modern" also tends to mean completely uncustomizable. you can't change your hotkeys, our theme is set thru a/b testing, and it's all locked beyond your control
2021-05-19T15:43:12Z Demosthenex: looking at YOU firefox :P
2021-05-19T15:43:23Z Demosthenex: who uses windoze style copy/paste/search anyway
2021-05-19T15:43:24Z aeth: yeah, "dark theme" is a thing because nowadays most software has two theming options: dark and light. Old software like Emacs lets you change the whole thing.
2021-05-19T15:43:33Z Demosthenex: aeth: or run a terminal and control it all
2021-05-19T15:44:23Z Josh_2: Shinmera: nice
2021-05-19T15:44:38Z Shinmera: Thanks! :)
2021-05-19T15:45:38Z katco: yeah i really hate the trend away from open protocols and user agents (i.e. clients). everyone celebrating dark themes because they were handed down from on high. if you have protocols/clients, you have whatever you want. no one has to give you anything.
2021-05-19T15:45:43Z Demosthenex: Shinmera: omg! were you part of that! i saw that recently come up on some lisp news feed. i was impressed!
2021-05-19T15:45:49Z lukego: Shinmera: nice !
2021-05-19T15:45:58Z Shinmera: I am the lead dev, yes.
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2021-05-19T15:47:41Z Shinmera: I sometimes here people elsewhere are talking about it, but I wouldn't know where :)
2021-05-19T15:47:45Z Shinmera: *hear
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2021-05-19T15:52:23Z Josh_2: I like Matrix, I like IRC simple az
2021-05-19T15:52:28Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2021-05-19T15:52:42Z Josh_2: But most of all I like Common Lisp :P
2021-05-19T15:58:37Z nitrix quit (Quit: To Libera.)
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2021-05-19T16:03:57Z ebrasca: Are we moving to libera.chat or xmpp or what?
2021-05-19T16:04:29Z Shinmera: there's some stuff on libera now.
2021-05-19T16:04:38Z Shinmera: I won't be using xmpp or matrix or whatever, myself.
2021-05-19T16:05:03Z ebrasca: Why we need to fragment your comunity?
2021-05-19T16:05:20Z aeth: I'm staying here for now
2021-05-19T16:05:32Z ebrasca: "for now"...
2021-05-19T16:05:38Z Shinmera: https://gist.github.com/joepie91/df80d8d36cd9d1bde46ba018af497409
2021-05-19T16:05:47Z aeth: lots of stuff is going on, I can't really "afford" to add another 10 channels
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2021-05-19T16:09:29Z Josh_2: Moving?
2021-05-19T16:09:31Z Josh_2: I'm not moving anywhere
2021-05-19T16:09:59Z irc_user joined #lisp
2021-05-19T16:09:59Z Josh_2: Oh cmon
2021-05-19T16:10:06Z Josh_2: Maybe I am moving then
2021-05-19T16:10:24Z Josh_2: Cant  we just move onto a different IRC server?
2021-05-19T16:10:30Z ggoes quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-05-19T16:10:35Z Shinmera: that's what libera is.
2021-05-19T16:10:56Z ggoes joined #lisp
2021-05-19T16:11:01Z Josh_2: okay thats cool with me
2021-05-19T16:11:56Z ebrasca: Can we have something better than irc?
2021-05-19T16:12:44Z hhdave: this is what some are wondering.
2021-05-19T16:13:19Z Shinmera: https://shirakumo.github.io/lichat :v
2021-05-19T16:13:29Z Josh_2: Well I have little say and little sway, so I'm basically going to defer to beach
2021-05-19T16:13:42Z Bike: What's the lichat lisp channel?
2021-05-19T16:13:43Z Cymew: I find irc with all its faults are better than its successors.
2021-05-19T16:13:58Z Josh_2: IRC is nice because of its simplicity and I can't post memes that get me in trouble
2021-05-19T16:14:31Z aeth: IRC focuses on text, which is good
2021-05-19T16:14:34Z mfiano: Josh_2: You seem to be doing much better sans the memes since I banned you
2021-05-19T16:14:35Z Shinmera: Bike: heh
2021-05-19T16:14:44Z ebrasca: I like to fix my errer when I mistipe.
2021-05-19T16:15:22Z aeth: There are two cultures: IRC channels and internet chat rooms. If you add in emoji reactions and images and videos and stuff, you get the latter, and you wind up getting an AOL chatroom replacement instead of an IRC replacement.
2021-05-19T16:15:37Z Fade just joined #lisp on libera.
2021-05-19T16:15:49Z Josh_2: yeh exactly mfiano
2021-05-19T16:15:58Z Josh_2: although my memes are fire, you lot are just uh weak
2021-05-19T16:16:04Z Josh_2: (not on irc but on discord)
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2021-05-19T16:16:38Z Bike: https://gist.github.com/Bike/ba58b85d2b2dec2d3af8a54821ca3b27 here is a quick list of places
2021-05-19T16:17:14Z ebrasca: Maybe it is good idea for me to host my own server for the lisp comunity.
2021-05-19T16:17:17Z contrapunctus: Josh_2: r/lispmemes 😏
2021-05-19T16:17:40Z ebrasca: xmpp?
2021-05-19T16:18:09Z jmercouris: everyone is getting excited, just like GitHub, I doubt anything will change... give it a week, and then bring it up again
2021-05-19T16:18:15Z Shinmera: Bike: I don't think making a lisp separate channel on tynet/lichat would be worth it. I expect the shirakumo channel alone is gonna be dry enough :)
2021-05-19T16:18:29Z Bike: ah well
2021-05-19T16:18:42Z phoe: jmercouris: I'm mostly angry
2021-05-19T16:18:55Z phoe: not really excited
2021-05-19T16:19:23Z Shinmera: Of course, I'd love to be proven wrong about that
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2021-05-19T16:20:35Z Josh_2: contrapunctus: they dont like my lisp memes
2021-05-19T16:20:38Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: github was a commercial entity from the start - freenode premise was different though
2021-05-19T16:20:44Z mfiano: It will likely appear to be the same, sans a lower user count, and the unknown of what a hostile business may do with your user data.
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2021-05-19T16:23:59Z xristos: mfiano: user data as in a password hash and an email
2021-05-19T16:24:12Z xristos: let's not pretend it's even remotely an issue ;p
2021-05-19T16:25:35Z phoe: and also chat logs
2021-05-19T16:25:42Z phoe: including DMs
2021-05-19T16:25:45Z xristos: which you know anyone can log so you (should) consider public
2021-05-19T16:26:18Z xristos: alternatively, can layer encryption on top of IRC
2021-05-19T16:26:25Z Shinmera: no you can't.
2021-05-19T16:26:28Z xristos: yes you can
2021-05-19T16:26:41Z phoe: as long as you invent your own layer atop irc, sure thing
2021-05-19T16:26:42Z Shinmera: not in any reasonable way
2021-05-19T16:26:44Z xristos: ever heard of ADMirc in the90s
2021-05-19T16:28:08Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-05-19T16:29:22Z ebrasca: What is ADMirc?
2021-05-19T16:29:23Z _death: there was FiSH.. though it was susceptible to MITM
2021-05-19T16:30:16Z xristos: fish didn't do authenticated diffie-hellman key-exchange iirc
2021-05-19T16:30:20Z ebrasca: I think we need a desentralized irc like server.
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2021-05-19T16:38:39Z Josh_2: Fade: #lisp or #commonlisp ?
2021-05-19T16:39:34Z silasfox quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-05-19T16:40:05Z frgo left #lisp
2021-05-19T16:40:19Z phoe: Josh_2: we do not (yet) have op on the former
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2021-05-19T16:41:02Z Josh_2: aww rip
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2021-05-19T16:41:21Z phoe: but I'm in the process of getting it
2021-05-19T16:42:29Z Noisytoot quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-05-19T16:42:39Z jackdaniel: then make the channel private with the message upon join: "join #commonlisp"
2021-05-19T16:42:46Z jackdaniel: we'll get rid of the channel name debates ,)
2021-05-19T16:42:53Z Shinmera: Would be better to have the latter anyway, just to finally stop the endless confusion "but #lisp is only for commonlisp???"
2021-05-19T16:43:03Z jackdaniel: ^
2021-05-19T16:47:06Z Josh_2: Yes but we are asserting our dominance by having the #lisp name
2021-05-19T16:47:13Z pjb: :-)
2021-05-19T16:47:20Z Josh_2: "Yes we have #lisp because Common Lisp is the best lisp, what of it?"
2021-05-19T16:47:37Z phoe: actually
2021-05-19T16:47:37Z _death: we could take over #clojure as well
2021-05-19T16:47:40Z phoe: I already have #commonlisp
2021-05-19T16:47:42Z jackdaniel: do you feel so insecure about it that you need to assert anything?
2021-05-19T16:47:48Z Josh_2: _death:  thats the spirit
2021-05-19T16:47:56Z phoe: _death: can't do that, already claimed :(
2021-05-19T16:48:24Z phoe: jackdaniel: like, if we'd like to utilize this chance to move to #commonlisp, then it's already ready and registered
2021-05-19T16:48:32Z phoe: (on Libera, that is)
2021-05-19T16:48:40Z jackdaniel: sure, I'm answering to what Josh_2 said
2021-05-19T16:48:47Z phoe: oooh
2021-05-19T16:48:48Z phoe: OK
2021-05-19T16:48:56Z _death: phoe: and that's why if I'm gonna move to another network, it'll be eris free.. although they have that annoying chanfix :x
2021-05-19T16:49:38Z phoe: eris free?
2021-05-19T16:49:43Z _death: efnet
2021-05-19T16:49:48Z phoe: yes, I see
2021-05-19T16:50:05Z Josh_2: jackdaniel: okay lets compromise, we will take #lisp and #commonlisp
2021-05-19T16:50:20Z cage_ joined #lisp
2021-05-19T16:50:29Z jackdaniel moves to more productive things
2021-05-19T16:50:29Z Noisytoot joined #lisp
2021-05-19T16:50:35Z splittist: Josh_2: that's the spirit!
2021-05-19T16:50:39Z Josh_2: :)
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2021-05-19T17:04:23Z jcowan: ^^
2021-05-19T17:05:01Z jcowan: Also, chanserv allows clean redirection
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2021-05-19T17:13:56Z Josh_2: Okay I am on libera now, registration was normal using nickserv
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2021-05-19T17:16:51Z Josh_2: Farewell freenode! :wave:
2021-05-19T17:16:56Z Josh_2 quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1))
2021-05-19T17:24:05Z saturn2: i can't connect to irc.libera.chat
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2021-05-19T17:25:58Z whosit: seems like only plaintext for now?
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2021-05-19T17:26:57Z jackdaniel: whosit: port 6697 is tls
2021-05-19T17:27:15Z whosit: I can't connect to 6697
2021-05-19T17:27:28Z whosit: "connection refused"
2021-05-19T17:27:40Z loke[m]: saturn2: It's been unstable because of the torrent of people joining I guess?
2021-05-19T17:27:43Z jackdaniel: perhaps  you are trying to connect in plaintext?
2021-05-19T17:27:44Z ecraven: I'm connected via tls on that port.. maybe the servers are a bit overloaded, try again a bit later?
2021-05-19T17:27:52Z phoe: whosit: it happened to me earlier, then I was able to connect eventually
2021-05-19T17:27:53Z jackdaniel: adding -tls in irssi gives you encryption
2021-05-19T17:27:56Z jnewton`` quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-05-19T17:28:09Z whosit: ah, sorry, yes, probably my mistake
2021-05-19T17:28:17Z whosit: did it mostly through config before
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2021-05-19T17:28:50Z whosit: jackdaniel: thank you, that did it
2021-05-19T17:28:55Z jackdaniel: sure
2021-05-19T17:30:38Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-05-19T17:30:59Z galex-713: hello, how could I get the index of the smaller value of a list?
2021-05-19T17:31:09Z phoe: galex-713: what do you mean, smaller value?
2021-05-19T17:31:10Z galex-713: I mean using something “high-level” like minimize
2021-05-19T17:31:19Z galex-713: phoe: smaller number
2021-05-19T17:31:25Z galex-713: like “minimize” clause does in loop
2021-05-19T17:31:46Z galex-713: except I also would like to get other values at the time of that minimum
2021-05-19T17:31:48Z galex-713: like an index
2021-05-19T17:32:14Z galex-713: like loop for i from 0 to n minimize (f i) and get i
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2021-05-19T17:34:42Z cage_: galex-713: (reduce #'min '(9 8 7)) ; => 7
2021-05-19T17:35:18Z cage_: ahh, sorry i did not read properly
2021-05-19T17:35:59Z silasfox quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-05-19T17:36:42Z phoe: galex-713: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2448#2448
2021-05-19T17:36:47Z phoe: that's what I came up with, using loop
2021-05-19T17:37:00Z galex-713: cage_: no worry :)
2021-05-19T17:37:11Z phoe: I don't know if such a function already exists, one second...
2021-05-19T17:37:17Z cage_: galex-713: :)
2021-05-19T17:37:56Z galex-713: phoe: ok so no way using minimize?
2021-05-19T17:38:19Z galex-713: I tried before to reimplement “minimize” out of loop for the sake of abstraction but realized it’s more complex than that because the index is separated
2021-05-19T17:38:32Z phoe: I don't know how to do it using LOOP MINIMIZE
2021-05-19T17:38:39Z galex-713: maybe it’s impossible
2021-05-19T17:38:55Z galex-713: minimize stores only one value I guess, no way of remembering other value from the moment that value was smallest
2021-05-19T17:39:15Z saturn2: you can't do it because you need a place to store the minimum value and also a place to store the index
2021-05-19T17:39:47Z galex-713: also, what I’m trying to do is to take some sort of “median” of a list of numbers, so that the difference of the sum on either of its sides is the smallest… do that statistical function has a name?
2021-05-19T17:40:11Z galex-713: (what I’m trying to know is what’s the median size of a country, ponderated by its surface)
2021-05-19T17:40:13Z _death: (loop with min-i = -1 for i upfrom 0 for x in '(3 9 8 2 5) minimize x into min-x when (eql x min-x) do (setf min-i i) finally (return (values min-x min-i)))
2021-05-19T17:40:23Z galex-713: (I’m currently calling that a ponderated median but dunno if it’s the correct name)
2021-05-19T17:41:27Z galex-713: _death: OH MY GOD I LOVE YOU
2021-05-19T17:41:53Z galex-713: okay it’s slightly less beautiful than I thought but it’s exactly what I wanted
2021-05-19T17:43:11Z _death: I wouldn't use loop there in actual code.. map nil would work on any sequence type
2021-05-19T17:43:38Z galex-713: _death: but map couldn’t minimize :o how would you do that?
2021-05-19T17:43:43Z hiroaki joined #lisp
2021-05-19T17:43:46Z galex-713: my alternative solution rewrote it inside a dotimes
2021-05-19T17:44:00Z galex-713: with imperative code inside it (but well minimize looks pretty imperative too)
2021-05-19T17:44:04Z _death: you'd do it yourself, (setf min-x (min min-x x))
2021-05-19T17:44:27Z galex-713: oh using min there is more beautiful
2021-05-19T17:44:35Z galex-713: or…
2021-05-19T17:44:48Z galex-713: wait no, because it’s not the only value I need to keep
2021-05-19T17:45:02Z galex-713: min contains a conditional that would be needed anyway to store the index of the minimum
2021-05-19T17:45:04Z _death: it doesn't matter that the code is imperative.. the function would be referentially transparent
2021-05-19T17:45:09Z galex-713: also, how to get an index using map?
2021-05-19T17:45:24Z ramus left #lisp
2021-05-19T17:45:25Z _death: you can maintain one yourself
2021-05-19T17:45:52Z galex-713: why do you talk about referential transparency?
2021-05-19T17:46:18Z galex-713: you mean like accessing an external variable from the mapped function?
2021-05-19T17:46:22Z galex-713: and modifying it?
2021-05-19T17:46:30Z galex-713: is that possible?
2021-05-19T17:46:38Z galex-713: is map necessarily in-order?
2021-05-19T17:47:07Z _death: because you want an operator (minimum seq) => value, index (or a more general one) and it doesn't matter much how it's implemented
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2021-05-19T17:48:44Z _death: clhs map
2021-05-19T17:48:44Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_map.htm
2021-05-19T17:49:18Z galex-713: mmh
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2021-05-19T17:49:26Z galex-713: using map that way makes me sad :/
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2021-05-19T17:49:37Z _death: you can use reduce then
2021-05-19T17:49:55Z galex-713: mmmh
2021-05-19T17:50:19Z galex-713: dunno if it would really make sense
2021-05-19T17:50:34Z galex-713: I mean, how would it be better than using dotimes or loop?
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2021-05-19T17:53:35Z _death: if you like inefficient code.. (reduce #'smaller (zip sequence (iota (length sequence)))) (defun smaller (a b) (if (< (car a) (car b)) a b)) (defun zip (a b) (map 'list #'list a b)) (defun iota (n) (loop for i below n collect i))
2021-05-19T17:53:47Z galex-713: nooooo
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2021-05-19T17:54:11Z galex-713: actually, I’d like code that would work out of order, so then I could apply it my dichotomy instead of linearily
2021-05-19T17:54:30Z galex-713: that is minimize starting from the center of a partition each time, and partitioning by the center at each level
2021-05-19T17:54:37Z galex-713: so it would be logarithmic
2021-05-19T17:54:54Z _death: it can't be logarithmic
2021-05-19T17:55:09Z galex-713: my list is sorted
2021-05-19T17:55:14Z galex-713: so it can
2021-05-19T17:55:17Z _death: ?
2021-05-19T17:55:29Z _death: if it's sorted, the index is either 0 or (1- (length sequence))
2021-05-19T17:55:41Z galex-713: because the values decrease monotonically then increase monotonically
2021-05-19T17:56:02Z galex-713: [19:39:47] <galex-713> also, what I’m trying to do is to take some sort of “median” of a list of numbers, so that the difference of the sum on either of its sides is the smallest… do that statistical function has a name?
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2021-05-19T17:56:50Z galex-713: the sums are not purely monotonical, but the numbers are, so the sums first decrease and then increase
2021-05-19T17:56:58Z galex-713: it’s like finding a local minimum
2021-05-19T17:57:03Z _death: the partition problem?
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2021-05-19T17:59:00Z galex-713: _death: ?
2021-05-19T17:59:13Z tgbugs quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2021-05-19T17:59:58Z _death: do you mean the difference between the element and its neighbors?
2021-05-19T18:00:07Z galex-713: no
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2021-05-19T18:01:04Z galex-713: I mean like take a list of number, find the number so that A is the sum of numbers before it, and B the sum of numbers after it, and the difference between A and B is minimal
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2021-05-19T18:01:38Z galex-713: I want to know what’s the size of your country on average if you end up on a random place on earth
2021-05-19T18:02:08Z galex-713: I’m not sure this match the average of countries size
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2021-05-19T18:02:30Z galex-713: well apparently it doesn’t
2021-05-19T18:03:48Z _death: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_problem
2021-05-19T18:03:56Z galex-713: thank you
2021-05-19T18:04:04Z galex-713: I’m looking for it
2021-05-19T18:05:13Z galex-713: _death: oh yeah but there it’s a set, hence unordered
2021-05-19T18:05:16Z galex-713: my list is ordered
2021-05-19T18:06:13Z _death: it doesn't matter
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2021-05-19T18:08:18Z galex-713: _death: well if my list is 224-wide, there are only 224-possibilities
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2021-05-19T18:08:36Z galex-713: WAIT
2021-05-19T18:08:42Z galex-713: I called it “ponderated mean”
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2021-05-19T18:08:47Z galex-713: I could simply… ponderate it…
2021-05-19T18:09:01Z galex-713: mmmh
2021-05-19T18:11:27Z galex-713: _death: I want the country so that the total surface of earth of wider-than-you countries is as near as possible to the total surface of earth of smaller-than-you countries
2021-05-19T18:11:52Z galex-713: the time of finding it is linear at worse, but I’m pretty sure it could be logarithmic
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2021-05-19T18:17:27Z jcowan: On not relying on broken hardware/software:
2021-05-19T18:17:28Z hypercube quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1)
2021-05-19T18:18:17Z jcowan: Buildings are made of frangible brick and mortar, overly rigid stone, and overly elastic steel.  Therefore, we should all live in tents.
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2021-05-19T18:22:02Z _death: galex-713: I guess it could matter when the order is fixed.. seems you're looking for some expected value?
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2021-05-19T18:24:28Z galex-713: _death: I want to see if it would correspound to the average
2021-05-19T18:24:34Z galex-713: it seems not to
2021-05-19T18:24:51Z galex-713: but my values are scrambled, 2 values are missing, so I can’t be sure, I’m doing it again
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2021-05-19T18:26:06Z Inline: jcowan: back in the days making houses was no issue with a little bit of mud/clay, hay and wood
2021-05-19T18:26:35Z Inline: jcowan: i suppose the rest was an issue of good intuition of 'statics'
2021-05-19T18:26:41Z Inline: lol
2021-05-19T18:27:26Z jcowan: Well, mud is no good in areas with torrential rain, and alll of it is bad in earthquake country
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2021-05-19T18:29:09Z Inline: nah, with only 2 floors, nobody would die, at least not when the house is small and one is not hit in a weird position
2021-05-19T18:29:58Z Inline: and when the house comes down, who cares as long as you are alive, just another try for a little more days of work...
2021-05-19T18:29:59Z Inline: lol
2021-05-19T18:30:43Z Inline: but tents are a thing yea
2021-05-19T18:31:16Z mister_mmmm quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-05-19T18:31:19Z Inline: so many types from so many tribes
2021-05-19T18:31:34Z imode: https://fuchsnet.ch/freenode-resign-letter.txt
2021-05-19T18:31:47Z phoe: imode: we're aware
2021-05-19T18:32:01Z phoe: #lisp has been created on libera.chat but we do not have op rights there
2021-05-19T18:32:08Z phoe: #commonlisp has been created and we have op rights there
2021-05-19T18:32:24Z imode: here's hoping that the staff work that out with you.
2021-05-19T18:32:31Z imode: seems to be chaotic right now
2021-05-19T18:32:37Z imode: but a good kind of chaotic. positively chaotic?
2021-05-19T18:32:43Z phoe: yes
2021-05-19T18:32:57Z phoe: and they have a ton of work to do, especially today
2021-05-19T18:33:13Z phoe: I'm not the only one asking for operator permissions
2021-05-19T18:33:47Z phoe: I sent them a mail and I'm waiting for response
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2021-05-19T18:34:33Z pfdietz: Is there a web client to access libera.chat, like webchat.freenode.net works to access here?
2021-05-19T18:34:49Z phoe: kiwiirc.com works well
2021-05-19T18:34:56Z phoe: in particular, https://kiwiirc.com/nextclient/irc.libera.chat
2021-05-19T18:35:14Z Inline: ah ok
2021-05-19T18:35:21Z Inline: thank you
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2021-05-19T18:37:51Z jgkamat: I assume when there's a concrete plan the topic will be updated right
2021-05-19T18:38:12Z pfdietz: Same password there?  I am trying to remember what it was here...
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2021-05-19T18:40:06Z _death: channels exist as long as people inhabit them.. I think such migration would only work with "organized" communities and new channels..
2021-05-19T18:41:07Z phoe: pfdietz: password?
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2021-05-19T18:41:13Z jackdaniel: the password is, as we all know from the movie "hackers", the phrase "god"
2021-05-19T18:41:24Z phoe: jgkamat: what do you mean by a concrete plan?
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2021-05-19T18:41:44Z jgkamat: phoe: like, if/when the channel migrates
2021-05-19T18:42:15Z jackdaniel: as in: one mod declares jumping the ship to another server and changes topic; another mod reverts it back 2h later ,-)
2021-05-19T18:42:16Z phoe: I guess someone would need to make a decision then, and people would need to follow it
2021-05-19T18:42:23Z phoe: and we get exactly what jackdaniel said
2021-05-19T18:42:48Z phoe: right now I'm observing the situation, and preparing stuff on libera in case we move there
2021-05-19T18:42:50Z jackdaniel: well, I'm still going to change a topic for better or worse (the moment I know where #clim and #ecl move); but I'm sure that plenty of people will stay
2021-05-19T18:43:10Z phoe: but I don't think the time is right for proclaiming concrete plans right now
2021-05-19T18:43:39Z jgkamat: I was kind of assuming the mods would (at some point) all be on the same page at some point xD
2021-05-19T18:43:49Z phoe: the mods, sure
2021-05-19T18:43:52Z _death: of course a channel owner could set +i and kick everyone or something... personally I'm sticking freenode
2021-05-19T18:43:55Z phoe: but #lisp isn't all mods
2021-05-19T18:44:46Z jackdaniel: _death: that's what I'm doing with #clim and #ecl, yes ,)
2021-05-19T18:44:49Z _death: there are a zillion references to freenode #lisp.. I'm not sure it's useful to disband or have yet more channels just to satisfy irc drama du jour
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2021-05-19T18:46:25Z Fare: Is something happening on freenode?
2021-05-19T18:46:46Z phoe: Fare: a hostile takeover
2021-05-19T18:46:50Z jgkamat: at some point (unless things change) freenode will likely be overrun with spam and/or other bad things, because that's what the staffers jobs were
2021-05-19T18:47:17Z Fare: :-/
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2021-05-19T18:47:30Z Fare: Where is the Great Migration heading to? Matrix?
2021-05-19T18:47:32Z phoe: Fare: https://gist.github.com/joepie91/df80d8d36cd9d1bde46ba018af497409
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2021-05-19T18:47:42Z jackdaniel: Fare: people are split between https://libera.chat/ and matrix
2021-05-19T18:47:43Z phoe: Fare: libera.chat which is a new network created by old freenode staff
2021-05-19T18:47:50Z phoe: and matrix, as jackdaniel said
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2021-05-19T18:48:07Z phoe: but libera.chat will be getting a matrix integration as soon as they can get it, just like freenode does
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2021-05-19T18:50:45Z loli: Matrix is gaining support popularity these days?
2021-05-19T18:51:17Z xristos: not from me
2021-05-19T18:51:51Z Duuqnd: All rooms I'm in on matrix are IRC bridges
2021-05-19T18:52:15Z jgkamat: IMO matrix is nice if you're looking for the modern features, but IMO it's too slow/unreliable for me
2021-05-19T18:52:27Z jgkamat: and the spec moves too fast for anyone to have a chance of implementing a good client
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2021-05-19T18:52:29Z jackdaniel: joining lisp channel on matrix was, well, disappoining (content and connectivity wise)
2021-05-19T18:52:53Z Inline: erm that's just some web interface
2021-05-19T18:53:22Z Inline: i tried both sometime ago, but then saw that the content there is sometimes distracting
2021-05-19T18:53:53Z Duuqnd: I think matrix makes for a nice IRC client
2021-05-19T18:53:56Z Inline: better is to have some good paste sides around like termbin.com which you can use with netcat
2021-05-19T18:54:12Z Inline: and use the old text interface irc clients
2021-05-19T18:54:25Z Inline: or some image/vid paste sites too
2021-05-19T18:54:43Z _death: matrix may be nice for matrix users, but not for people using other irc clients...
2021-05-19T18:54:49Z Inline: ja matrix and discord
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2021-05-19T18:56:27Z Inline: file contents should be on a separate thing on both matrix and discord and leave the main channel as is
2021-05-19T18:56:49Z wsinatra joined #lisp
2021-05-19T18:56:56Z Inline: or say, each channel should have it's own media panel associated with it
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2021-05-19T18:57:31Z Inline: which you can bring to the foreground if you wish that, like we do when we open the browser
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2021-05-19T19:02:09Z Inline: hmm, didn't get my email yet from libra
2021-05-19T19:03:18Z loli: check your spam, it ended up in my spam box
2021-05-19T19:03:34Z Inline: oh
2021-05-19T19:05:44Z Inline: arright, found it
2021-05-19T19:05:46Z Inline: thank you
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2021-05-19T19:16:35Z thmprover: Say, uh, has anyone been paying attention to this freenode takeover thing? Apparently the staff running it has resigned?
2021-05-19T19:16:45Z ChoHag: thmprover: It was the DNS.
2021-05-19T19:16:58Z Bike: we have been talking about that for a few hours.
2021-05-19T19:17:02Z ChoHag: This (unofficial) summary seems fairly accurate: https://gist.github.com/joepie91/df80d8d36cd9d1bde46ba018af497409
2021-05-19T19:17:21Z ChoHag: (Not mine, I found it)
2021-05-19T19:18:03Z thmprover: Will the #lisp community move to a different IRC server? Or is this "not as bad as it sounds", so to speak?
2021-05-19T19:18:13Z ChoHag: tl;dr: Chill Winston. Wait for tomaw to wake up, check his inbox, and have his 6th or 7th coffee.
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2021-05-19T19:18:35Z Bike: we have alt channels set up on libera.chat and matrix
2021-05-19T19:19:00Z ChoHag: It would be insane to make any decisions at this stage just, as has apparently been done, prepare.
2021-05-19T19:19:42Z Bike: this channel is not really a coherent organization, so there aren't going to be official definitive statements about moving or not
2021-05-19T19:20:02Z ChoHag: The service isn't going anywhere any time soon you can be sure of that. ragnarok's not going to topple working servers he can't right when he's trying to prove his worth in a hostile environment.
2021-05-19T19:20:27Z ChoHag: Well he might he seems a bit of a moron but that wouldn't be wise.
2021-05-19T19:21:14Z MrtnDk[m]: _death  Can't we use something like "Beatle juice" or what it's called, and simply implement an interface to the matrix for now? I realise it's going to be a major inconvenience, and everyone will have to get matrix accounts, but at least we have a place until the situation has been fixed permanently. I wish Lilo was alive, he might have been able to fix this.
2021-05-19T19:21:32Z ChoHag: OTOH it's getting late in Russia and the vodka's flowing and maybe with all the staff gone it's time for a ddos?
2021-05-19T19:21:44Z Lycurgus is just catching up but doesn't see how this is different from the general situation with the global name service
2021-05-19T19:21:55Z thmprover: Right, right; I'm just mildly surprised by the news. It will all pan out in the end, I'm certain.
2021-05-19T19:22:02Z ChoHag: Lycurgus: It was literally the DNS that done it.
2021-05-19T19:22:14Z ChoHag: Somehow the domains got into the wrong hands and *poof*.
2021-05-19T19:22:34Z jackdaniel: it is not about dns; freenode ltd was sold under unclear circumstances and the current owner claims ownership of services and servers too
2021-05-19T19:23:00Z Lycurgus: so here's the URL I posted in the wiki channel before I knew there was a freenode issue eg.meansofproduction.biz/index.php/Alt_root
2021-05-19T19:23:01Z jackdaniel: that is most likely unlawful, but nobody has time and health to fight the lawsuits coming from a commercial entity (that's usa law for you)
2021-05-19T19:23:39Z Lycurgus: still not clear what the freenode issue is, other than possibly ownership
2021-05-19T19:24:47Z Bike: based on all the resignation notices, it sounds like the staff was not clear on their own legal organization to begin with. they all come off as kind of confused or blindsided by this, and they'd know better than any of us schlubs, so everything comes off seeming vague
2021-05-19T19:25:01Z ChoHag: My client says lag 60 so I may be about to eat my words...
2021-05-19T19:25:42Z Lycurgus: i mentioned bitlbee in #wikipedia-en and the response was "Matrix is a Matrix is a standard for bridging nowadays tbh"
2021-05-19T19:25:51Z jrm quit (Quit: ciao)
2021-05-19T19:25:57Z Lycurgus: s/Matrix is a//
2021-05-19T19:26:02Z ChoHag: jackdaniel: Freenode Ltd. is a UK company.
2021-05-19T19:26:53Z Lycurgus: was freenode originally owned by the tor people?
2021-05-19T19:27:02Z jackdaniel: ChoHag: is that so? then scratch my last remark, my bad.
2021-05-19T19:27:19Z MrtnDk[m]: What is Freenode Ltd owner of?
2021-05-19T19:27:23Z ChoHag: I think so even though the future crown prince of Korea lives in America.
2021-05-19T19:27:30Z ChoHag: It's all shady as hell.
2021-05-19T19:28:03Z ChoHag: MrtnDk[m]: Apparently nothing except it happens to control the domain (ie. relationship with the registrar).
2021-05-19T19:28:25Z lonjil: MrtnDk[m]: it is the owner of being able to make legal threats against people. Legal threats that may or may not have weight, but may be quite difficult for individual staffers to deal with.
2021-05-19T19:28:26Z MrtnDk[m]: This is now getting more crazy than a TV-show like "the bold and the boastful"
2021-05-19T19:28:26Z MrtnDk[m]: (or what it's called).
2021-05-19T19:28:26Z Inline: erm
2021-05-19T19:28:32Z Bike: If you read the resignation notices, the staff seem to have been confused about what Freenode Ltd was in fact the owner of
2021-05-19T19:28:36Z Bike: and if they don't know, i definitely don't
2021-05-19T19:28:43Z ChoHag: Bike: Which is shocking as hell.
2021-05-19T19:28:45Z Inline: what has a company todo with a network ?
2021-05-19T19:28:54Z ChoHag: How the hell do you not know who your employer is?
2021-05-19T19:28:57Z Inline: other than the same sounding name part
2021-05-19T19:29:03Z jackdaniel: MrtnDk[m]: I've found this the most informative: https://fuchsnet.ch/freenode-resign-letter.txt
2021-05-19T19:29:10Z Bike: ChoHag: they were volunteers
2021-05-19T19:29:10Z ChoHag: How do you devote decades of your life to something you so fundamentally misunderstand?
2021-05-19T19:29:20Z epony: hahaha
2021-05-19T19:29:22Z ChoHag: Bike: They *thought* they were volunteers.
2021-05-19T19:29:32Z jackdaniel: ChoHag: you are a volunteer, you all agree to make a legal entity [for something], then one of you sell that legal entity
2021-05-19T19:29:32Z MrtnDk[m]: Thank you jackdaniel
2021-05-19T19:29:34Z Lycurgus: don't most people to that?
2021-05-19T19:29:40Z Bike: "under terms that have not been disclosed to the staff body" is what i mean here
2021-05-19T19:29:41Z ChoHag: Which will be a fun one when UK minimum wage laws come up.
2021-05-19T19:29:45Z Bike: well, part of
2021-05-19T19:29:49Z Inline: aoh, freenode ltd. is a holding
2021-05-19T19:30:01Z saturn2: freenode didn't have any employees, only volunteers. a while back one of the volunteers "sold" it to that guy and then disappeared
2021-05-19T19:30:17Z ChoHag: Interestingly, in the UK contracts *don't* need to be written to be enforcable.
2021-05-19T19:30:26Z Inline: well to sell it you need to be the owner right ?
2021-05-19T19:30:29Z Bike: yeah, my attitude here is that if the staff was this vague about their organization I'm not sure I want to stick around anyway
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2021-05-19T19:30:42Z ChoHag: And apparently the freenode staff thought their agreement (aka. contract) was one thing while the holding claims it was another.
2021-05-19T19:30:51Z ChoHag: So if they lawyer up right this one could be good.
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2021-05-19T19:30:55Z saturn2: the whole thing made no sense, but the guy has enough money to keep the frivolous lawsuits going forever
2021-05-19T19:31:08Z Inline: lol
2021-05-19T19:31:11Z Inline: oh man
2021-05-19T19:31:17Z ChoHag: Judges are in a bad fucking mood right now.
2021-05-19T19:31:43Z ChoHag: They absolutely do not want frivolous suits clogging up their overtaxed courts.
2021-05-19T19:31:48Z epony: very concerned about the future of lisp..
2021-05-19T19:32:09Z Lycurgus: why?
2021-05-19T19:32:23Z Bike: Why do they not want to bother with frivolous caseS?
2021-05-19T19:32:31Z Inline: lisp ltd.
2021-05-19T19:32:34Z Inline: lol
2021-05-19T19:32:49Z ChoHag: Because the virus overreaction has strained a system that was already at breaking point.
2021-05-19T19:32:51Z Lycurgus: and what do you mean by "the future of lisp?"
2021-05-19T19:33:10Z ChoHag: Hearings are being delayed by *years* in some cases.
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2021-05-19T19:33:13Z Lycurgus will be surprised if that's not parked
2021-05-19T19:33:29Z lonjil: ChoHag: They already have a lawyer. Who advised them that Freenode Ltd would probably lose in the end, but legal challanges could drag on for years and be very very expensive for the volunteers.
2021-05-19T19:33:49Z ChoHag: Sensible lawyer.
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2021-05-19T19:34:01Z Lycurgus: yeah, .org goes to an image of mccarthy
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2021-05-19T19:34:33Z MrtnDk[m]: jackdaniel If this letter is correct, Christel basically screwed over Freenode, possibly for personal gain. I think we're only seeing the top of the iceberg. Does anyone know if Christel have (had) any personal or financial problems, that could affect her judgement?
2021-05-19T19:34:37Z Lycurgus: didn .net used to be a thing?
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2021-05-19T19:34:52Z ChoHag: I'm reserving my judgement on christel.
2021-05-19T19:35:13Z ChoHag: It would be unfair to speculate.
2021-05-19T19:35:18Z epony: a synthetic language the age of your grandparents graduation.. and some chat hosting facility on the end of its teens spawned from other such when that said language was 40 years old and standardised with dialects
2021-05-19T19:35:22Z MrtnDk[m]: ChoHag: Me too. She might have been screwed over herself.
2021-05-19T19:35:26Z IIsi50MHz: Holy crap, I'm caught up with all channels, including forks! :shades:
2021-05-19T19:36:07Z epony: dramamin administered
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2021-05-19T19:38:15Z jackdaniel: epony: you don't make much sense. lisp and freenode are two separate things
2021-05-19T19:38:26Z epony: exactly
2021-05-19T19:38:33Z epony: you'd say unrelated
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2021-05-19T19:40:37Z MrtnDk[m]: Speaking of which ... are there any reasonable implementations of IRC in common Lisp, like services, servers and/or clients?
2021-05-19T19:41:00Z epony: ircd.. is C land
2021-05-19T19:41:03Z Inline: there's cl-irc
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2021-05-19T19:42:17Z Inline: and there's beirc
2021-05-19T19:42:33Z Inline: beirc is clim which uses cl-irc
2021-05-19T19:42:34Z Lycurgus: maiden
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2021-05-19T19:48:08Z _death: finally, a chance for /sendcoin to work
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2021-05-19T19:54:18Z _death: or MODE #lisp +M .. meaning all clients now mine coin for the channel fund
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2021-05-19T19:58:12Z IIsi50MHz: +btc *!*@...where'd everybody go?
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2021-05-19T20:34:49Z jcowan: It's not U.S. law specifically; it's just the general problem that "he who has the best lawyers wins"
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2021-05-19T20:35:47Z jcowan: In any case, Freenode Ltd. definitely does not own the servers: they belong to sponsors, and it's what the sponsors do that will be decisive.
2021-05-19T20:36:17Z xristos: jcowan: it owns the domains, servers are irrelevant
2021-05-19T20:37:07Z ChoHag: That's what Bezos would like you to believe.
2021-05-19T20:37:10Z jcowan: In the sense that ragnarok could easily afford to buy his own, yes.
2021-05-19T20:37:53Z jcowan: But getting experienced IRC ops to run it for him will be very hard after this debacle
2021-05-19T20:38:27Z Bike: stupid question: is "ragnarok" andrew lee or somebody else
2021-05-19T20:39:13Z ChoHag: Yes it seems fitting.
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2021-05-19T20:41:00Z jcowan: Yes; it's a meme I am spreading (not my own invention)
2021-05-19T20:41:14Z jcowan: much easier to remember than his actual nick
2021-05-19T20:41:33Z Bike: i see
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2021-05-19T20:44:31Z ChoHag: jcowan: Have it.
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2021-05-19T20:45:52Z ChoHag: He deserves it. I was hoping for a quiet day playing old D&D games.
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2021-05-19T21:35:33Z rpg: Are people here joining the flight from freenode? And if so, what's the new lisp home?
2021-05-19T21:36:29Z Bike: there's #commonlisp on irc.libera.chat, and #common-lisp:matrix.org
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2021-05-19T21:36:53Z IIsi50MHz: ircs://irc.libera.chat/#commonlisp
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2021-05-19T22:00:41Z luis: Surely you mean #lisp rather than #commonlisp
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2021-05-19T22:02:30Z IIsi50MHz: Nope. #lisp exists, but ops are not configured, because someone else opened the channel first
2021-05-19T22:02:48Z IIsi50MHz: So, #commonlisp was made, with ops.
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2021-05-19T22:03:30Z saturn2: you can probably get #lisp back if you go to #libera and ask
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2021-05-19T22:06:05Z IIsi50MHz: They've been asked. Pending response. Please stand by. Film at 11.
2021-05-19T22:06:12Z luis: :)
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2021-05-19T22:30:47Z jcowan puts in a word for McCarthy's Request: nothing should be called simply "Lisp".
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2021-05-19T22:34:34Z p_l: IIsi50MHz: some #lisp@freenode people are handling the #lisp on libera, it's just taking time
2021-05-19T22:35:14Z IIsi50MHz: Basic'ly what I tried to convey. (-_-);
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2021-05-19T22:56:09Z waleee-cl: jcowan: he apparently goes by rasengan
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2021-05-19T22:57:14Z jcowan: Yes, I recognize it when I see it, but I can't be bothered to remember it.  Ragnarok is easier to remember (as it means something appropriate) and still reminiscent of his usual nick
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2021-05-19T23:16:00Z p_l: IIsi50MHz: hah
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2021-05-19T23:17:52Z rpg: I don't mind leaving to Libera, but I lost my primo nick...
2021-05-19T23:20:38Z White_Flame: I just checked and at least I registered on a burner email address
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2021-05-19T23:28:46Z nij: Does anyone know how uiop:run-program's options `:output :interactive :input :interactive` work? I'm trying to figure out why they don't play well with the sly-slynk protocol.
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2021-05-19T23:50:21Z dieggsy: is there some standard (or almost standard?) thing like emacs lisp's alist-get?
2021-05-19T23:50:49Z dieggsy: i can always just assoc and work with that manually of course
2021-05-19T23:51:01Z dieggsy: but if i can save myself some typing by some method i don't know of... heh
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2021-05-19T23:51:36Z _death: there is alexandria:assoc-value
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2021-05-20T00:11:17Z nij: How about this? (assoc 'a '((a . 1) (b . 2) (c . 3))) ; => (A . 1)
2021-05-20T00:11:31Z nij: (assoc "a" '(("a" . 1) ("b" . 2) ("c" . 3)) :test #'string=) ;=> ("a" . 1) ;; http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/beyond-lists-other-uses-for-cons-cells.html
2021-05-20T00:14:15Z dieggsy: _death: neat, thanks
2021-05-20T00:14:42Z dieggsy: _death: oh wait, that's basically just an assoc
2021-05-20T00:15:05Z mmontone: @dieggsy you can have a look at assoc-utils library
2021-05-20T00:16:30Z dieggsy: i think i can really only depend on Alexandria, Arnesi, ASDF.
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2021-05-20T01:25:44Z etimmons: nij: What are you confused about? https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/asdf/asdf/-/blob/master/uiop/run-program.lisp#L507
2021-05-20T01:27:22Z nij: etimmons: Thanks for getting back to me. Here's the problem.
2021-05-20T01:28:16Z nij: If you run (uiop:run-program "/usr/bin/python" :output :interactive :input :interactive) in an sbcl openned in a terminal emulator, you get a working python repl WITHIN your lisp repl.
2021-05-20T01:28:49Z nij: However, if you run that in sly, then it hangs. The SLY-SLYNK protocol seems to handle usual standard i/o, but not when you call :intermediate.
2021-05-20T01:29:08Z nij: I think it also happens to slime-swank too. Lemme try later today.
2021-05-20T01:33:26Z etimmons: In slime your REPL would no longer work, but you'd be able to run other slime commands.
2021-05-20T01:33:47Z etimmons: The REPL thread is blocked by the run-program and will remain that way until python dies.
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2021-05-20T01:33:57Z etimmons: I assume slynk is similar
2021-05-20T01:34:56Z etimmons: :interactive means that python would inherit the processes stdout and stdin (notably not the same thing as standard-output and standard-input)
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2021-05-20T01:45:56Z saturn2: for that to work, slime would have to create a pty
2021-05-20T01:46:15Z saturn2: very messy and unportable
2021-05-20T01:49:05Z nij: However, if you do this in inferior-lisp, it works perfectly fine.
2021-05-20T01:49:25Z nij: So the problem really lies in the bridge between SLY and SLYNK, or SLIME and SWANK.
2021-05-20T01:50:16Z nij: Given that it's working in inferior-lisp, I think it should not be hard to fix.. but I have to first understand the nature of :interactive. What makes it different? Why doesn't SLY-SLYNK protocol deal with it well?
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2021-05-20T01:55:42Z etimmons: I think it would be extremely hard to make it work with :interactive.
2021-05-20T01:56:48Z etimmons: It literally passes the file descriptor for SBCL's stdin/stdout to the subprocess. That's very low level stuff
2021-05-20T01:57:49Z nij: That's actually my point - it's passed into the subprocess, but inferior-lisp correctly handles it.
2021-05-20T01:58:09Z nij: Sly and slime are based on inferior-lisp, so the low-level part has been done already.
2021-05-20T01:58:38Z etimmons: Because that is attached to the lisp process' stdin/out
2021-05-20T01:58:43Z etimmons: No
2021-05-20T01:58:51Z nij: As an example, run `M-x inferior-lisp`, and in which run (uiop:run-program "/usr/bin/python" :output :interactive :input :interactive) .. you still get a working python repl.
2021-05-20T01:58:56Z nij: ?!
2021-05-20T01:59:15Z etimmons: Sly and slime use a network connection to pass data back and forth between emacs and lisp
2021-05-20T01:59:26Z nij: Correct ^
2021-05-20T02:00:20Z etimmons: The only thing slime does with inferior-lisp is start the lisp and send a form to start the network server
2021-05-20T02:00:36Z etimmons: Interior lisp is used for nothing else beyond that
2021-05-20T02:01:20Z nij: Slime can also handle i/o between it with inferior-lisp well, right?
2021-05-20T02:01:24Z etimmons: And it's not even required because you can start a lisp process yourself, start the network server yourself, and then connect to it from emacs all without an inferior-lisp buffer
2021-05-20T02:01:36Z etimmons: To the best of my knowledge, no
2021-05-20T02:02:35Z nij: .. hmm I run (uiop:run-program "sudo pacman -Q" :output *standard-output*) in sly and it outputs correctly.
2021-05-20T02:02:52Z nij: That means at least some i/o is handled..
2021-05-20T02:03:14Z nij: It's very strange, then, to me, as why the i/o from :interactive doesn't work.
2021-05-20T02:03:29Z nij: Surely it has arrived inferior-lisp correcty. The working python repl in it is a proof.
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2021-05-20T02:08:00Z etimmons: *standard-output* is bound to a stream that sly can read from and then send the bits that get written to it to your emacs
2021-05-20T02:08:20Z etimmons: It is not the same thing as :interactive
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2021-05-20T03:06:45Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-05-20T03:07:39Z nij: Good morning beach :)
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2021-05-20T04:42:30Z markasoftware: are we going to libera?
2021-05-20T04:43:22Z phadthai: some of us are there
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2021-05-20T05:41:37Z nij: etimmons I see. Is there way to "combine" *standard-output* and :interactive?
2021-05-20T05:41:58Z nij: I might have to hack uiop:run-program for this.. but.. I might need some hint.
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2021-05-20T07:44:02Z Lycurgus notes a bunch of channels (e.g. the wiki and haskell ones) are already moving to libera
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2021-05-20T07:51:46Z nij: :-O what should we/I do to move there?
2021-05-20T07:52:08Z pjb: use irc.libera.chat instead of irc.freenode.org
2021-05-20T07:52:21Z pjb: How, will depend on your irc client.
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2021-05-20T07:53:03Z pjb: if erc, M-x customize-variable RET erc-server RET may be all it takes.
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2021-05-20T07:56:05Z McParen: If you have a registered nick, you will have to register it there too. The nickserv data has apparently not been copied over.
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2021-05-20T10:10:36Z hhdave: hello?
2021-05-20T10:10:52Z hhdave: Hmm - that's odd. I can't seem to send any message on irc.libera.chat. Works here though.
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2021-05-20T10:21:44Z jackdaniel: we can't see your messages here either
2021-05-20T10:22:23Z jackdaniel: ,)
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2021-05-20T10:28:48Z McParen: jackdaniel: Do you know if you or one of the other opers will register the other channel to prevent some kind of takeover?
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2021-05-20T10:30:56Z jackdaniel: #commonlisp has been registered, #lisp doesn't have currently op (because someone joined then left while the room was not empty) but global opers were contacted by phoe for an op
2021-05-20T10:31:11Z jackdaniel: so I gather that the issue will be resolved after the initial storm
2021-05-20T10:31:32Z jackdaniel: as of #clim and #ecl, both channels are registered
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2021-05-20T10:33:44Z McParen: thats reassuring, I didnt expect the migration to get so messy.
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2021-05-20T10:35:11Z jackdaniel: changing something that has been constant for at least a decade is not a trivial matter (as _death pointed out yesterday)
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2021-05-20T10:56:07Z ecraven: hhdave: maybe some channels are +r (registered users only), there was some problem with spam yesterday
2021-05-20T10:56:54Z hhdave: there was, but I am registered. I've signed in from ERC instead of Colloquy and it's working fine. It's odd though, because Colloquy is working ok here (it's what I'm using). Very strange.
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2021-05-20T11:01:20Z sysadmin: This channel will be terminated. Any nicks remaining in the channel will also be terminated. This action cannot be undone. Please /connect to irc.butt.es and /join #gamme for more information.
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2021-05-20T11:01:52Z jackdaniel: uh oh, a new falange of spam
2021-05-20T11:02:04Z ChanServ has set mode +o jackdaniel
2021-05-20T11:02:11Z jackdaniel has set mode +b *!*McCafe@23.108.51.*
2021-05-20T11:02:33Z sysadmin [~jack@turtleware.eu] has been kicked from #lisp by jackdaniel (farewell)
2021-05-20T11:03:11Z jackdaniel: that was cute nonetheless
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2021-05-20T11:11:11Z jmercouris: hello everyone, a new Nyxt is out: https://nyxt.atlas.engineer/article/release-2.0.0.org
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2021-05-20T12:15:23Z phoe: nice!
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2021-05-20T16:21:38Z dieggsy: so at work people use a mix of tabs and spaces to indent code, which makes it look all wonky on my emacs lol
2021-05-20T16:21:54Z dieggsy: is there a particular emacs setup i can do so that this mixed indentation looks like normal lisp indentation
2021-05-20T16:23:36Z dieggsy: ah, leaving the default tab-width at 8 seems to fix it back up ...visually anyay heh
2021-05-20T16:26:15Z aeth: It's actually the default behavior for Emacs and one of the first things most people change when they set up a .emacs so... Emacs absolutely should be able to handle that.
2021-05-20T16:26:31Z aeth: (well, not for Lisp)
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2021-05-20T16:29:11Z dieggsy: aeth: yeah, i had changed tab-width to 4 (though i don't actually use tab characters at all for indentation) which caused a visual difference between what i saw and what my coworkers saw
2021-05-20T16:29:19Z dieggsy: i think most of them use fairly stock emacs
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2021-05-20T21:40:00Z ComCat: Hi ops. You can also redirect this channel to ##moved_to_libera. Do that before you leave the network please. But please update the topic at least. Keep the community together under no corrupted rule. Libera is registered as non-profit and all the old staffers and volunteers are there. Sponsors are pulling out from freenode btw. A few of them were staffers, so they're at libera as well.
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2021-05-20T21:41:56Z Shinmera: What does it mean to "redirect a channel"
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2021-05-20T21:47:24Z IIsi50MHz: Changing the /topic makes sense. Redirecting to an offtopic channel to use that channel as a handle seems unnecessary.
2021-05-20T21:47:38Z aeth: has cliki been updated?
2021-05-20T21:47:58Z aeth: Doesn't look like it. https://www.cliki.net/IRC
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2021-05-20T22:00:43Z scymtym: can we wait a bit longer? i don't think the new channels are logged yet for one thing
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2021-05-20T22:20:17Z ComCat: IMPORTANT NOTICE: Hi Ops. Please update the topic to point to the new server (libera.chat). Thank you. Current situation: crown prince of korea and co-founder of MtGox (bitcoin exit-scam) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Lee_(entrepreneur) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mt._Gox#Bankruptcy;_stolen_bitcoin_(2014%E2%80%93ongoing) - has now full control over Freenode and has destaffed ALL the staffers you knew. The staffers have founded and moved
2021-05-20T22:20:17Z ComCat: to Libera.chat. Sponsors of Freenode are beginning to pull out, it is unknown for how long the freenode will be stable. Most channels, projects and users are now migrating to Libera. Libera is a registered non-profit organization with mitigations against this disaster happening ever again. Leaked chats showing disgusting intents and former devs that have worked with Mr.Lee before says that he's disorganized, dishonest and that they wish to never
2021-05-20T22:20:24Z ComCat: work with him again (he managed to scam freenode out of our hands and he lied to the staffers). All officiall freenode channels are now currently under complete censorship. https://distfiles.dereferenced.org/stuff/nirvana-log.txt  - https://paste.sr.ht/~ircwright/7e751d2162e4eb27cba25f6f8893c1f38930f7c4 - Please update your topic to point to the new server if you haven't done so already. This message is to inform the users about the situation if
2021-05-20T22:20:29Z ComCat: the topic is set already. Spread this message too.
2021-05-20T22:21:23Z |3b|: with the amount of "move to libera" spam, libera is starting to seem less like a good alternative :/
2021-05-20T22:22:21Z aeth: that's counterproductive, definitely
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2021-05-20T22:41:11Z jcowan: It's very temporary.  Soon the Korean Empire and the Not That Free Republic should be quite separate
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2021-05-20T22:41:44Z jcowan: I also feel confident that ComCat isn't a libera staffer
2021-05-20T22:41:46Z waleee-cl: "Not That Free Republic"?
2021-05-20T22:42:28Z waleee-cl: (I get that it's libera you're refering to, but not quite how)
2021-05-20T22:42:53Z waleee-cl: Wordplay on liberia?
2021-05-20T22:43:05Z jcowan: Yes basically
2021-05-20T22:43:53Z jcowan: Also FreeRepublic.com ("Freep") is a strongly right-wing web site
2021-05-20T22:44:09Z jcowan: hence "Not That"
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2021-05-20T22:48:20Z waleee-cl: ok, that was a much nicer image :)
2021-05-20T22:50:44Z IIsi50MHz: Yeah, it seemed to me like "not-that-free republic", rather than "not THAT free republic". Glad of the clarification.
2021-05-20T22:52:08Z jcowan: Ah, I missed it.  Shoulda translated it into Lojban
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2021-05-20T23:05:40Z curiouslisper: So has everybody decided to jump ship for unknown reasons because admins have jumped ship for unknown reasons?
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2021-05-20T23:08:47Z curiouslisper: I'm not sure of moving to libera where it is staffed by people who dont know why they left except that the person who bullied the former head of staff out said they should.
2021-05-20T23:09:27Z curiouslisper: the same guy accusing the owner of a domain name of dictatorship after locking the guy out of freenode and spamming freenode for everybody to leave.
2021-05-20T23:09:52Z IIsi50MHz: That's...an interesting take on it.
2021-05-20T23:10:08Z White_Flame: the resignation notices did not state unknown reasons
2021-05-20T23:10:12Z IIsi50MHz should bother to read the resignation letters
2021-05-20T23:10:23Z White_Flame: yes, there will be he said/she said about it,but yeah
2021-05-20T23:10:29Z curiouslisper: i have read all the resignation letters
2021-05-20T23:11:02Z curiouslisper: most are unsure what is happening, what will happen, or what exactly they have lost control over.
2021-05-20T23:11:21Z White_Flame: the 3rd part is clear
2021-05-20T23:11:36Z curiouslisper: Well, the domain name.
2021-05-20T23:11:44Z White_Flame: no, operation of the irc network
2021-05-20T23:12:01Z White_Flame: which wasn't supposed to follow the ltd corp
2021-05-20T23:12:13Z curiouslisper: they were still operating it until they resigned.
2021-05-20T23:12:43Z White_Flame: that's unclear
2021-05-20T23:13:26Z curiouslisper: if you can ban the domain owner you still have operational control.
2021-05-20T23:13:30Z White_Flame: also, legal threats to turn things over are claimed to have happened
2021-05-20T23:13:48Z White_Flame: (turn over to freenode ltd)
2021-05-20T23:14:08Z curiouslisper: read the irc logs as well
2021-05-20T23:14:36Z curiouslisper: the admins sought legal council, the owner didn't threaten legal action.
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2021-05-20T23:15:06Z curiouslisper: I mean, just read the recent spam.  It's a bit hyperbolic.
2021-05-20T23:15:20Z curiouslisper: and reads more like FUD
2021-05-20T23:15:35Z White_Flame: that it does
2021-05-20T23:16:05Z IIsi50MHz: Given Lee's history, I'll admit to some U&D.
2021-05-20T23:16:08Z White_Flame: also, your nick wasn't on here when the spam was posted?
2021-05-20T23:16:58Z curiouslisper: I usually just browse the logs.
2021-05-20T23:17:12Z curiouslisper: but then noticed a blank page and became curious
2021-05-20T23:17:54Z curiouslisper: i can see the user list now, so i guess people aren't being overly dramatic and hysterical.
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2021-05-20T23:19:45Z White_Flame: blank page?
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2021-05-20T23:20:25Z curiouslisper: https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/lisp?from=1621472545
2021-05-20T23:21:11Z White_Flame: ah
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2021-05-20T23:29:19Z curiouslisper: Well, i guess if people haven't jumped ship I can go back to just quietly reading the logs. and just saw there's a lot more admins that haven't resigned, just a small group.
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2021-05-21T02:01:33Z brownxoat: hey, I am an idiot trying to get abcl working on windows. can anyone help? I am getting "spawning child process: invalid argument" with this setq
2021-05-21T02:01:54Z brownxoat: (setq inferior-lisp-program (concat "c:/Program\ Files/Java/jdk-16.0.1/bin/java.exe" " -jar " "c:/Program\ Files/abcl/abcl.jar"))
2021-05-21T02:02:07Z brownxoat: it sucks that ccl doesn't work on windows by default anymore...
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2021-05-21T02:10:17Z |3b|: brownxoat: might try (concat "\"c:/Program Files/Java/jdk-16.0.1/bin/java.exe\"" " -jar " "\"c:/Program Files/abcl/abcl.jar\"") or using slime-lisp-implementations instead of inferior-lisp-program
2021-05-21T02:11:02Z |3b|: i think inferior-lisp-program gets confused by spaces, which extra quotes might avoid
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2021-05-21T02:17:22Z brownxoat: |3b|: hmm... that's getting me closer
2021-05-21T02:17:25Z brownxoat: (setq inferior-lisp-program (concat "\"c:/Program\ Files/Java/jdk-16.0.1/bin/java.exe\"" " -jar " "\"c:/Program\ Files/abcl/abcl.jar\""))
2021-05-21T02:17:31Z brownxoat: right now gets
2021-05-21T02:18:02Z brownxoat: Searching for program: no such file or directory, "c:/ProgramFiles/Java/jdk-16.0.1/java.exe"
2021-05-21T02:18:08Z brownxoat: so the problem is how to add that space...
2021-05-21T02:18:43Z |3b|: no \ before spaces
2021-05-21T02:20:27Z brownxoat: |3b|: hmm, without \ I get: Searching for program: No such file or directory, "c:/Program
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2021-05-21T02:22:08Z |3b|: ok, maybe that doesn't work then, try slime-lisp-implementations which takes program name and args as separate strings
2021-05-21T02:23:40Z |3b|: (setq slime-lisp-implementations '((abcl ("c:/Program Files..." "-jar" "c:/Program Files/...")))) (setq slime-default-lisp 'abcl)
2021-05-21T02:23:52Z |3b|: expanding the ... as in original
2021-05-21T02:25:20Z brownxoat: |3b|: that works! thank you so much :)!
2021-05-21T02:26:20Z brownxoat: also are people on here switching to libera.chat?
2021-05-21T02:26:26Z |3b| notes that sbcl works reasonably well on windows too
2021-05-21T02:27:12Z |3b|: not sure if there is general agreement about moving yet (or to what channel if so), though looks like some people have moved
2021-05-21T02:27:13Z brownxoat: |3b|: the last I heard is that sbcl is missing threads or something on windows, which made me stay away from it. I just heard people backtalking sbcl on windows on the internet for the last few years, so I didn't even consider it.
2021-05-21T02:27:54Z brownxoat: not that I am smart enough to even write multi-threaded code
2021-05-21T02:27:57Z |3b|: it has threads, and i've been using sbcl/windows as my main dev setup for years with no particular problems
2021-05-21T02:28:09Z brownxoat: |3b|: then I am repeating nonsense
2021-05-21T02:28:43Z |3b|: it might not be 100% compared to linux, but it is good enough for general use
2021-05-21T02:29:54Z |3b|: (the test suite has some things that break on windows, but probably mostly not things you'd do too often in real code, like constantly running GC in one thread while constantly recompiling files in another, or whatever)
2021-05-21T02:29:55Z brownxoat: I don't get what happened to ccl though :( https://github.com/Clozure/ccl/issues/311
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2021-05-21T02:32:27Z |3b|: i think ccl is lacking in available maintainer time lately :/
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2021-05-21T03:29:47Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-05-21T03:38:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: morning, beach!
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2021-05-21T06:06:19Z phoe: morning
2021-05-21T06:06:24Z phoe: |3b|: yes
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2021-05-21T07:08:36Z jnewton: Good morning everyone.   Does anyone know a lot about RISC instructions in general?
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2021-05-21T07:09:51Z jnewton: I'm reading something which directly contradicts a fundamental principle of how RISC works.  Maybe my understanding has been wrong all this time.
2021-05-21T07:10:24Z |3b|: has "RISC"/"CISC" has any meaning for the last few decades?
2021-05-21T07:11:30Z |3b|: (and/or any  relevance to #lisp)
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2021-05-21T07:11:56Z jdz: Yesterday there was a discussion like this on #lisp@libera.chat
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2021-05-21T07:13:43Z jnewton: My question is if I load (write) data into a register, and in the next instruction I try to read from that register.  will I (1) read the old value, or (2) will the processor automatically stall waiting for the data to be ready?   I though (1) was the case and that that was considered a feature.
2021-05-21T07:13:51Z jdz: jnewton: There was an article how Apple's new CPU can have sane instruction stream decoding and speculative execution (because of constant instruction sizes), whereas x86 is screwed because it has to process too many false positives since it has to try instructions at every byte position.
2021-05-21T07:15:35Z jdz: jnewton: Stalls are usually associated with writes/reads to memory.  And even then CPUs speculate.
2021-05-21T07:16:16Z |3b|: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delay_slot suggests early risc didn't always do that
2021-05-21T07:17:13Z jdz: jnewton: AMD CPUs do even more: https://www.amd.com/system/files/documents/security-analysis-predictive-store-forwarding.pdf
2021-05-21T07:17:29Z jdz: I bet Intel CPUs have something similar.
2021-05-21T07:17:55Z |3b| thought it was generally a 'feature' of RISC to /not/ automatically do things for you
2021-05-21T07:18:06Z jdz: Yeah, good old days.
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2021-05-21T07:19:58Z jnewton: |3b|: that was what I thought as well.  i.e., you were allowed to write, and still read the old value for one cycle.
2021-05-21T07:20:30Z jnewton: |3b|: maybe that applies to memory but not to registers???
2021-05-21T07:21:08Z jnewton: Sorry I know this is not a lispy conversation.   just thought there might be someone here that could clear up my confusion
2021-05-21T07:21:51Z beach: jnewton: #lisp may be about to move to #commonlisp at libera.chat because of a "hostile takeover" of freenode.
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2021-05-21T07:22:19Z beach: jnewton: So, if one day you will find fewer people here, that's the explanation.
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2021-05-21T07:23:50Z jnewton: ?hostile takeover?
2021-05-21T07:24:05Z beach: It's complicated...
2021-05-21T07:24:06Z |3b|: jnewton: i think it depends on specific ISA, not RISC in general
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2021-05-21T07:24:28Z beach: jnewtone: https://fuchsnet.ch/freenode-resign-letter.txt
2021-05-21T07:24:58Z beach: I know of no modern architecture where the old value would be read.
2021-05-21T07:25:02Z |3b|:  and register -> register move probably wouldn't have a delay slot anywhere
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2021-05-21T07:25:52Z jdz: jnewton: I think this is the article I had in mind: https://debugger.medium.com/why-is-apples-m1-chip-so-fast-3262b158cba2
2021-05-21T07:32:03Z |3b|: not sure it is even guaranteed to show you the old value on old mips (or anything else with load delay slot), might depend on cache hit, or might stall automatically and delay slot just gives you a chance to do something during the stall
2021-05-21T07:32:53Z jnewton: |3b|: thanks.  gocha
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2021-05-21T07:47:48Z White_Flame: jnewton: "RISC" was a concrete architecture, with a bunch of interconnected tradeoffs.  Talking about "RISC style" is as contentious as "What is a Lisp?"
2021-05-21T07:48:04Z White_Flame: and comparing it to LISP 1.5 or whatever
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2021-05-21T12:06:14Z jcowan: White_Flame: what concrete architecture do you have in mind?
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2021-05-21T12:20:37Z White_Flame: jcowan: Berkeley RISC I
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2021-05-21T13:10:43Z dieggsy: huh, i hadn't seen lisp-lang.org
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2021-05-21T14:58:19Z green__: I'm trying to get ironclad's sha256 hash to give them same output as sha256sum.  Something is way off.  When I ask ironclad to sha256 sum a file, I get the same output as sha256sum.  But if I feed it a byte array that's the same as the file I get a different output.   Google-searches suggest others have had this problem, but there's no pointer to resolution...  Anybody else struggle with this?
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2021-05-21T15:00:35Z green__: Example is here: https://titanwolf.org/Network/Articles/Article?AID=dd489e0b-0965-4cf2-a8ec-1c2f653f6a89#gsc.tab=0  . But if I sha256sum a file with "Rosetta code" I get something different..
2021-05-21T15:00:36Z phoe: green__: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2451#2451
2021-05-21T15:00:38Z phoe: no issue for me
2021-05-21T15:01:08Z phoe: the only possible problem I see is the implicit newline that unix text files have at the end
2021-05-21T15:01:40Z phoe: I account for that in my Lisp string, whereas a file on a unix filesystem created e.g. with nano or vim will usually have a newline at its very end
2021-05-21T15:02:54Z green__: OMFG.. vi!! I hate you! Should have used emacs.  Verified that it is OK.  Thanks!
2021-05-21T15:02:58Z phoe: hey
2021-05-21T15:03:01Z phoe: emacs does the same thing
2021-05-21T15:03:03Z phoe: :D
2021-05-21T15:03:12Z green__: I was able to create a 1 char file with emacs
2021-05-21T15:03:14Z green__: "A"
2021-05-21T15:03:28Z green__: my vi "A" file was 2 bytes
2021-05-21T15:03:32Z phoe: afaik it's a setting with emacs
2021-05-21T15:03:44Z green__: yes,.. I've set that
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2021-05-21T15:07:39Z CL-ASHOK: How to access the colors used in Emacs for CL syntax highlighting?
2021-05-21T15:08:09Z phoe: CL-ASHOK: afaik these are standard emacs faces
2021-05-21T15:08:27Z phoe: place your point over the face you want to edit, M-x customize-face RET RET
2021-05-21T15:08:41Z CL-ASHOK: phoe: Thanks, do you know how to see their rules?
2021-05-21T15:09:05Z CL-ASHOK: I am adjusting highlight-lisp.js to match Emacs better
2021-05-21T15:09:15Z phoe: I used to do that some time ago, but I don't remember anymore; #emacs might know better
2021-05-21T15:11:10Z CL-ASHOK: phoe: Thank you, that helped and is enough for me to figure it out
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2021-05-21T17:37:35Z ebrasca: Can I make a video out of images taken by a camera in CL?
2021-05-21T17:37:47Z ebrasca: Is there a library for it?
2021-05-21T17:40:53Z jmercouris: ebrasca: there is that one library by Xach
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2021-05-21T17:42:10Z jmercouris: https://github.com/xach/skippy
2021-05-21T17:42:21Z ebrasca: My brother ask me to config video supervigilance , so Why not in lisp?
2021-05-21T17:44:12Z ebrasca: jmercouris: Thanks! , I will see if it does the job.
2021-05-21T17:46:11Z jmercouris: No problem!
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2021-05-21T18:49:11Z nij: join #clschooll
2021-05-21T18:49:16Z nij: oh no sorry..
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2021-05-21T19:13:37Z MacGyver22: CONNECT TO IRC.LIBERA.CHAT FOR ALL YOUR CHILD PORNOGRAPHY NEEDS
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2021-05-21T19:14:52Z Cthulhux: damn italians.
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2021-05-21T19:38:56Z dieggsy: hmm. I'm defining a generic in one package (with a default :method) and a couple methods in a different package that uses that one, but from the second package doesn't seem to know about the original's method
2021-05-21T19:40:43Z nij: Did you remember to refer the CLASS in the package FIRST in the package SECOND by FIRST:CLASS?
2021-05-21T19:41:18Z phoe: dieggsy: right, check if you are referring to the proper GF (via the proper symbol)
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2021-05-21T19:44:39Z nij: So.. in general I think you should do, for instance, (make-instance 'first:class) while living in other packages.
2021-05-21T19:44:58Z phoe: yes, that's a very good idea in general
2021-05-21T19:45:09Z phoe: and/or use package-local nicknames to shorten FIRST:CLASS into e.g. F:CLASS
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2021-05-21T19:45:31Z dieggsy: errrr hold up
2021-05-21T19:47:00Z dieggsy: i don't think the class name is the bottleneck, I'm not mentioning the CLASS in FIRST in SECOND at all
2021-05-21T19:47:31Z nij: How did you get access to an object defined in class that's defined in the first package then?
2021-05-21T19:47:34Z dieggsy: I'm dealing with classes that inherit from that one, but all these classes are themselves defines in a third package
2021-05-21T19:47:54Z phoe: post your code online somewhere
2021-05-21T19:48:10Z nij: Has been safe for me -> https://bpa.st/
2021-05-21T19:48:33Z phoe: I personally use https://plaster.tymoon.eu/ due to dogfooding and nice CL highlighting
2021-05-21T19:49:08Z dieggsy: phoe: it's gross and massive and probably not allowed. I'll keep poking at it though, i appreciate the suggestions
2021-05-21T19:49:37Z nij: Or maybe check out your (defclass..) form?
2021-05-21T19:49:55Z phoe: dieggsy: OK, then try the following
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2021-05-21T19:50:09Z phoe: go into the package where the class is defined and (describe 'foo) where FOO is the name of the class
2021-05-21T19:50:17Z phoe: then repeat the same in the package where you define the method
2021-05-21T19:53:47Z dieggsy: they seem to have the same output
2021-05-21T19:55:08Z nij: Say PERSON is the main class defined in the package THIRD, and CHILD is the subclass you want to define. Did you do (defclass child (THIRD:person) ()) instead of (defclass child (person) ())?
2021-05-21T19:56:12Z dieggsy: nij: no, it's defined as the latter
2021-05-21T19:56:34Z nij: Then it's not referring to the right 'PERSON :)
2021-05-21T19:56:35Z dieggsy: but let's assume i can't touch that part of the code
2021-05-21T19:56:55Z nij: then no.. CHILD isn't inheriting anything from THIRD:PERSON..
2021-05-21T19:57:10Z dieggsy: .....I'm thinking maybe if i didn't take care to export the generic definition properly this might happen?
2021-05-21T19:57:56Z nij: I think you have to import 'PERSON from the third package to the others then.. phoe help
2021-05-21T19:58:10Z dieggsy: nij: i mean, it could be, no? if the package CHILD is in uses or imports from THIRD
2021-05-21T19:58:40Z dieggsy: i think it :use s it though
2021-05-21T19:58:50Z nij: CHILD in my context isn't a package. It's a class..
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2021-05-21T20:01:01Z dieggsy: nij: i know, my wording wasn't the greatest but i meant "if the package that CHILD is in uses or imports from THIRD"
2021-05-21T20:01:15Z dieggsy: which it does
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2021-05-21T20:02:23Z nij: How did you define your second or first package?  Can you share that part of code?
2021-05-21T20:02:38Z nij: Usually it starts with (defpackage..)
2021-05-21T20:03:59Z dieggsy: nij: something like (defpackage :second (:use :first :third) ...)
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2021-05-21T20:07:44Z dieggsy: aaaaaand it's magically working
2021-05-21T20:08:24Z dieggsy: .....I'm going to chalk it up to a hard PEBKAC there
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2021-05-21T20:08:43Z dieggsy: possibly i hadn't recompiled everything i needed to or wasn't exporting or something....
2021-05-21T20:09:05Z dieggsy: sorry for the noise then, but then again maybe I'll be back in 5 mins lol
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2021-05-21T20:09:53Z nij: Glad it works :D
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2021-05-21T20:15:11Z dieggsy: so wait, has this channel officially moved
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2021-05-21T20:25:19Z Bike: this channel is an anarcho syndicalist commune that does not make official announcements, but there is #commonlisp on irc.libera.chat
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2021-05-22T03:03:49Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-05-22T03:13:37Z jcowan: "Officially moved" is not a coherent concept
2021-05-22T03:14:18Z jcowan: beach: I've read your paper on updating the ANS with interest
2021-05-22T03:16:07Z beach: The WSCL stuff?
2021-05-22T03:16:33Z beach: Oh, no, I think I know what you mean.
2021-05-22T03:16:35Z beach: OK.
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2021-05-22T03:19:28Z jcowan: http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/updating-the-standard.html
2021-05-22T03:19:35Z beach: Yes.
2021-05-22T03:19:53Z beach: I take it you have some remarks, yes?
2021-05-22T03:21:18Z jcowan: It's based, as far as I can tell, on a "consensus between implmenters" model of standardization.
2021-05-22T03:22:24Z beach: Oh?  That's an interesting way of viewing it.
2021-05-22T03:24:44Z jcowan: However, it does not consider the "contract between users and implmenters model."
2021-05-22T03:25:58Z jcowan: As the C++ committee wrote: "A standard is a contract between implementers and users, to make it possible for users to write portable code. It's supposed to say what implementers are permitted to do, what they're required to do, and what users can and can't count on."
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2021-05-22T03:26:55Z beach: I am not sure I had that level of ambition when I wrote that page.
2021-05-22T03:27:09Z beach: I merely wanted to explain to newbies what the situation for Common Lisp is.
2021-05-22T03:27:17Z jcowan nods
2021-05-22T03:27:19Z jcowan: Fair enough.
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2021-05-22T03:30:46Z johnjay: the c/c++ thing as i understand it does a little of both
2021-05-22T03:31:03Z johnjay: having a "standard" and then adding in features to it when they get popular enough
2021-05-22T03:32:35Z johnjay: i suppose if one wanted to take this seriously you could implement a new version standard every decade indefinitely
2021-05-22T03:33:25Z jcowan: indeed
2021-05-22T03:35:00Z jcowan: Which is not necessarily a bad thing.  Of course it takes time for implementations to catch up, although new implementation will tend to adopt the most recent version: at least that's been the experience with R7RS Scheme, which used the contract model, as opposed to R6 which used the consensus model
2021-05-22T03:35:27Z jcowan: Another line from the C committee:  "Existing code matters, existing implementations do not."
2021-05-22T03:38:09Z johnjay: what is that part it keeps hinting at about adding a feature making the compiler impossible to optimize?
2021-05-22T03:38:25Z johnjay: it mentioned eval and lexical environments but are there others
2021-05-22T03:38:30Z jcowan: I've found that sort of thing when diggimng through old Lisps
2021-05-22T03:39:19Z jcowan: or newer lisps based on the old ones
2021-05-22T03:39:22Z johnjay: existing code matters. but i wouldn't say over everything else
2021-05-22T03:39:28Z beach: johnjay: The Common Lisp standard was carefully crafted so that they knew that the features would allow for a compiler to generate good code.
2021-05-22T03:39:52Z johnjay: i see
2021-05-22T03:40:02Z beach: johnjay: When random newbies without any training in language design or compiler design suggest additions to the standard, they do not take stuff like that into account.
2021-05-22T03:40:03Z jcowan: At the time, with AOT compilers and slow computers
2021-05-22T03:40:33Z |3b|: specifying things that might not match a particular CPU architecture can be hard to optimize
2021-05-22T03:40:45Z johnjay: well that's the other thing, hardware capabilities change and that does matter
2021-05-22T03:41:00Z beach: johnjay: Another simple issue may be that the standard does not allow the user to redefine standard functions.
2021-05-22T03:41:02Z |3b|: (which is a common reason for undefined behavior in C for example)
2021-05-22T03:41:04Z johnjay: it's not really a convincing argument to say "this feature could be added now with modern hardware but we don't want to."
2021-05-22T03:41:27Z beach: johnjay: If it did, then the compiler could not inline any standard functions.
2021-05-22T03:41:46Z beach: johnjay: No, it's not a simple thing about faster hardware.
2021-05-22T03:42:07Z beach: johnjay: It has to do with whether an entire host of compiler optimization techniques are even possible at all.
2021-05-22T03:42:31Z johnjay: beach: if the user is specifying that ability then shouldn't they be willing to take the consequences of it?
2021-05-22T03:42:43Z beach: johnjay: And that's what your typical newbie doesn't understand, because your typical newbie has no training in those domains whatsoever.
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2021-05-22T03:42:55Z jcowan: There are a lot of stupid UBs in C
2021-05-22T03:43:20Z beach: johnjay: I am not expressing myself very well.  Let me give you an example from the EVAL thing, OK?
2021-05-22T03:43:21Z |3b|: yeah, "we hate users" is another common reason for UB in C :/
2021-05-22T03:43:59Z beach: johnjay: Let's say the standard allows for EVAL to have access to lexical environment...
2021-05-22T03:44:08Z jcowan: Tis is my favorite bit:  "A nonempty source file does not end in a new-line character which is not immediately preceded by a backslash character or ends in a partial preprocessing token or comment [is undefined behavior]"
2021-05-22T03:44:29Z beach: johnjay: Then the programmer writes (let ((x 234)) ... (eval (read)))
2021-05-22T03:45:00Z beach: johnjay: Since the compiler can't know what will be evaluated, it may contain a reference to X, so even though X could be optimized away, the compiler can't do that.
2021-05-22T03:45:16Z jcowan: Because at the time of standardization, two compilers treated that obvious error differently, so it was stamped "UB" instead of fixing it.
2021-05-22T03:46:16Z beach: johnjay: So it has nothing to do with what the user does.  It has to do with what the standard allows.  The compiler writer must take into account the possibility of the user writing any conforming code.
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2021-05-22T03:47:38Z beach: *sigh* another wasted attempt to get important information across.
2021-05-22T03:48:25Z jcowan: Isn't that what teachers signed up for?
2021-05-22T03:48:41Z jcowan: (My parents were university professors.)
2021-05-22T03:48:57Z nij: lol.. true
2021-05-22T03:50:07Z beach: jcowan: It appears to be the reality, but I am not sure that fact is known when people "sign up".
2021-05-22T03:50:39Z jcowan: I suppose.  I got to see the underside of the profession from an early age.
2021-05-22T03:52:16Z nij: Sometimes the message got passed through, and that could be exciting.
2021-05-22T03:52:18Z jcowan: Anyway, a "ping timeout" doesn't mean johnjay left in disgust; it's a network connectivity issue.
2021-05-22T03:53:03Z beach: Indeed.
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2021-05-22T03:58:08Z beach: johnjay: Does that make sense to you?
2021-05-22T03:58:36Z johnjay: no i was disconnected the whole time
2021-05-22T03:58:38Z johnjay: sorry
2021-05-22T03:59:43Z nij: You can read the log here if interested: https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp
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2021-05-22T04:15:25Z jcowan: Imagine trying to implement Picolisp shallowly on top of CL or Scheme.  All looks well until you find that NIL is not only false and (), it is also "", least fixnum, an EOF object, stdin, stdout, NaN, the top of the type hierarchy, and "no value".
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2021-05-22T04:16:51Z jcowan: Numbers are also functions, strings are symbols, the list goes on
2021-05-22T04:17:22Z beach: It sounds like an exercise I would rather not attempt.
2021-05-22T04:18:19Z jcowan: So I concluded
2021-05-22T04:18:46Z jcowan: Of course you could write a picolisp interpreter in CL, but that would provide little advantage over writing it in C.
2021-05-22T04:20:04Z beach: Some advantage, maybe.  But the "shallow" part is gone.
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2021-05-22T04:33:21Z johnjay: i was wondering the other day why not make all those things nil
2021-05-22T04:33:26Z johnjay: or at least for purposes of looping
2021-05-22T04:37:44Z johnjay: by the way my internet is unstable so i randomly disconnect sometimes
2021-05-22T04:38:31Z johnjay: unfortunately as in this case it can happen at awkward times!
2021-05-22T04:38:31Z johnjay: beach: that example makes me think of the -O0,-O1, etc flags in C, where you can explicitly ask for what optimizations to turn on or disallow
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2021-05-22T04:38:43Z johnjay: meaning if the user *wants* slow or inefficient code... why not let them
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2021-05-22T04:47:33Z beach: johnjay: That's not the choice that was made.  I suspect that, since most application programmers have no clue about language design or compiler design, they would not understand the trade-offs.
2021-05-22T04:48:29Z beach: ... and then they would complain that "Lisp is slow".
2021-05-22T04:49:15Z remexre: maybe missing some context, but
2021-05-22T04:49:28Z remexre: found it really interesting that (safety 0) isn't "anything goes"
2021-05-22T04:50:08Z remexre: but rather that the spec enumerates (rather subtly, unfortunately) what behavior can do unfortunate things in the name of performance
2021-05-22T04:51:39Z remexre: and I guess, that it isn't "any type error"
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2021-05-22T20:08:07Z harovali: hi there, let's say I want to install sly, and I have slime installed. Do you think it is good idea to delete slime beforhand? If so, how it is safe to delete slime?
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2021-05-22T20:11:05Z brass: harovali: What are you worried is going to happen when you delete slime?
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2021-05-22T20:13:03Z harovali: brass: no, that should not worry. Just that I'm lost as of deleting something I installed maybe via asdf , maybe via quicklisp, maybe another way.
2021-05-22T20:13:57Z harovali: brass, addingly, I wonder if people delete slime when puttin sly, I don't know, I just supose they do that
2021-05-22T20:14:24Z brass: I use sly, it works well
2021-05-22T20:14:39Z harovali: brass: thanks
2021-05-22T20:14:44Z brass: The lisp code used by slime is kept inside the emacs package
2021-05-22T20:14:55Z brass: So when you uninstall it, it's removed
2021-05-22T20:15:11Z harovali: brass that's interesting, thanks too.
2021-05-22T20:15:34Z brass: np
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2021-05-23T03:01:52Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-05-23T07:55:35Z ebrasca: Good morning!
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2021-05-23T11:48:38Z Xach builds quicklisp for the release!
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2021-05-23T11:59:47Z Shinmera: \o/
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2021-05-23T12:31:34Z Inline: morning
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2021-05-23T12:53:25Z aun: sbcl.org is down, just saying
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2021-05-23T14:20:53Z jackdaniel: I'm dropping from this network and deregistering the nick. I'll leave to other ops the decision whether a topic will indicate migration or not. see you \o
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2021-05-23T15:14:20Z cage_: please change the topic :)
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2021-05-23T15:26:23Z saturn2: the new freenode admins might take over your channel if you mention libera in the topic
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2021-05-23T15:27:37Z saturn2: not saying you shouldn't do it, but just be aware of the possibility
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2021-05-23T15:55:33Z johnjay: saturn2: well... isn't that rational to do though
2021-05-23T15:55:42Z johnjay: you're basically saying you aren't using the channel anymore
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2021-05-23T16:06:03Z saturn2: rational for the admins? maybe. but maybe that also makes it rational to hide things from them. it's not my decision to make
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2021-05-23T16:06:45Z johnjay: true
2021-05-23T16:06:55Z johnjay: i guess we will see what the glorious korean prince decides to do
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2021-05-23T16:16:27Z ChanServ has set mode +o phoe
2021-05-23T16:17:00Z phoe changed the topic of #lisp to: Moving to #commonlisp @ Libera | <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/>
2021-05-23T16:17:04Z ChanServ has set mode -o phoe
2021-05-23T16:17:09Z phoe: let's see how this works
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2021-05-23T16:40:27Z Lord_Nightmare: freenode just changed their policy document, removing the line about banning hate speech. I'm out. 30 days notice.
2021-05-23T16:42:01Z phoe: Lord_Nightmare: link?
2021-05-23T16:42:06Z phoe: is there a diff available somewhere?
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2021-05-23T16:43:15Z Lord_Nightmare: ariadne's tweet, but someone pointed out that they actually DO still ban it, but in a more roundabout way
2021-05-23T16:43:42Z Lord_Nightmare: the text starting with "In accordance with UK law freenode has no tolerance for any activity that could be construed as:" covers it still
2021-05-23T16:43:47Z Lord_Nightmare: so my reading was premature
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2021-05-23T18:13:45Z IIsi50MHz: Rational to take over a channel? Not when they have an established public policy that establishes limits on when channel registration drops.
2021-05-23T18:15:05Z IIsi50MHz: I'd prefer that wait until their stated conditions occur,  instead of acting like the "No, don't go!" stalkers in
2021-05-23T18:15:16Z IIsi50MHz: one-sided relationships.
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2021-05-23T18:29:50Z jcowan: Every site has a host country, and no host countries allow complete freedom of speech
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2021-05-23T18:54:40Z epony: "some servers are more equal than others" --the hosting farm
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2021-05-23T19:04:16Z johnjay: yeah idk. this whole libera thing could be for nothing
2021-05-23T19:04:25Z johnjay: i think most channels are holding out to see what happens
2021-05-23T19:06:07Z IIsi50MHz: I'm only only two that haven't moved yet. Others went OFTC or Libera.
2021-05-23T19:06:45Z IIsi50MHz: Heard some went Matrix or Discord \_(-_-)_/
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2021-05-23T19:07:50Z aeth: In the many channels I'm in, #steamdb shut down for discord, almost everything else I'm in either moved to Libera or is waiting to see
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2021-05-23T19:16:31Z MrtnDk[m]: Na endlich!
2021-05-23T19:18:19Z MrtnDk[m]: beach  Don't worry about that, they say the same thing about Java™ ☺️😇
2021-05-23T19:19:09Z MrtnDk[m]: Wrong smiley .. not sure how it happened .. "autocorrect" will have to take the blame. 😇
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2021-05-23T19:34:33Z jdz: If posting this here hurts it means it's true: hxxps://www.devever.net/~hl/freenode_abuse
2021-05-23T19:37:53Z phoe: jdz: oh holy fuck
2021-05-23T19:39:23Z Xach: the stars are brightly shiiiiining
2021-05-23T19:40:16Z phoe: yes
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2021-05-23T19:44:51Z MrtnDk[m]: jdz  You misspelled. It's not hxxps, exchanging x's for t's will possibly fix it. Was this an intentional error?
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2021-05-23T19:50:04Z Xach: Shinmera: thanks for the quick fix
2021-05-23T19:50:47Z Shinmera: Sorry for the problem in the first place :)
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2021-05-23T19:57:47Z phoe: MrtnDk[m]: yes, s/http/hxxp/ is intentional for when people want URLs not to get highlighted
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2021-05-23T20:00:58Z IIsi50MHz: Semi-relatedly, (-: is intentional for avoiding graphical smilies.
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2021-05-23T20:01:29Z IIsi50MHz: But I wants my links to Just WorkTM. (-:O
2021-05-23T20:02:15Z MrtnDk[m]: What do you mean by highlighted, phoe ? Is it annoying a specific IRC client software in some way?
2021-05-23T20:03:29Z MrtnDk[m]: IIsi50MHz Also, ( : is just a poor mans (-: I guess. (Extra space on purpose).
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2021-05-23T20:05:56Z aun: Is there a way (library probably) to define local constant?
2021-05-23T20:06:03Z IIsi50MHz: No,  just had a close encounter with a battleaxe at a river before King's Landing. Still drinks and knows things!
2021-05-23T20:06:13Z phoe: aun: like a local DEFCONSTANT? I think not
2021-05-23T20:06:26Z aun: yeah, local defconstant
2021-05-23T20:06:40Z aun: shame. Can it be implemented at all?
2021-05-23T20:06:40Z phoe: the best you can do is define a lexical variable that is given a literal value and never mutate it; the compiler should be able to figure out the rest
2021-05-23T20:07:01Z aun: I wanted it to error on attempts to mutate it
2021-05-23T20:07:24Z Shinmera: symbol macro
2021-05-23T20:07:33Z phoe: yes, I think you could implement it via a symbol macro
2021-05-23T20:08:02Z phoe: where (foo) expands into some symbol and (setf foo) signals an error at macroexpansion time
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2021-05-23T20:09:39Z aun: well that's _something_ but if its a (supposedly constant) array named x and something like (setf (aref x 1) 3.14) happens, I think it ll lead to ....undesirable results
2021-05-23T20:09:48Z aun: am I right?
2021-05-23T20:10:11Z phoe: yes, and DEFCONSTANT does not protect you against this either
2021-05-23T20:10:27Z aun: ah, didn't know that
2021-05-23T20:10:38Z phoe: mutating literal/constant data is undefined behavior in CL and I don't know of an implementation that implements actual protection against this
2021-05-23T20:11:29Z aun: but is it possible to do so somehow  implementation agnostic, or it will require digging in the guts of compiler?
2021-05-23T20:12:47Z phoe: AFAIK not unless you define your own AREF variant
2021-05-23T20:13:03Z Xach: aun: is this to get better performance, to avoid mistakes, or something else?
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2021-05-23T20:13:16Z phoe: if we name it CAREF then CAREF is going to work like AREF but SETF CAREF should signal an error at macroexpansion time possibly
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2021-05-23T20:17:15Z aun: Xach I think its to avoid mistakes. I was asked by several people about const qualifier in CL and I decided to find out
2021-05-23T20:17:34Z phoe: there's no real equivalent of a const qualifier in CL
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2021-05-23T20:18:21Z aun: I can see the values in having it but I dont think its awful to not have it. I m mostly interested about it being possible to add, you know the mantra "extensible language" etc
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2021-05-23T20:19:23Z jcowan: CL is an extensible language, but not necessarily a restrictible one.
2021-05-23T20:19:56Z Xach: aun: that mantra is a little deceptive, i think. you quickly get a sense of what is easily extensible and what isn't, and there are plenty of reasonable things to extend that are not easily extensible.
2021-05-23T20:20:22Z jcowan: You can provide access to restricted functions, but you can't suppress access to existing ones, nor can you force your compiler to take advantage of any additional information provided by your restriction.
2021-05-23T20:21:34Z Xach: that's a key point - e.g. being meticulous about being immutable and even providing syntax and checks for immutable behavior does not mean the compiler will do anything better with the resulting code than if the compiler was built from the start to take advantage of it
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2021-05-23T20:37:05Z i5um41ru: any recommendation to learn lisp fast?
2021-05-23T20:37:20Z phoe: minion: tell i5um41ru about pcl
2021-05-23T20:37:21Z minion: i5um41ru: look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2021-05-23T20:37:26Z phoe: minion: tell i5um41ru about portacle
2021-05-23T20:37:27Z minion: i5um41ru: portacle: Portacle is a complete IDE for Common Lisp that you can take with you on a USB stick https://shinmera.github.io/portacle/
2021-05-23T20:37:31Z phoe: these two should be good enough
2021-05-23T20:37:50Z i5um41ru: well, thanks a lot
2021-05-23T20:42:43Z jcowan: The Scheme R6RS standard segregates the functions for mutating pairs and strings into two libraries separate from the base library, so in principle it is possible to determine if a given program uses them, and if so, to do something different at run time.  But I don't think any implementation actually does so.
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2021-05-24T00:37:56Z Xach: rpg: why does iterate include rt?
2021-05-24T00:38:13Z Xach: it causes Problems
2021-05-24T00:40:15Z Xach: more CI stuff?
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2021-05-24T03:02:29Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-05-24T04:29:02Z absolutezer0: Hello?
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2021-05-24T04:52:29Z beach: Hello absolutezer0.
2021-05-24T04:55:13Z beach: absolutezer0: Are you new here?  I don't recognize your nick.
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2021-05-24T07:20:04Z susam: Good morning, beach
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2021-05-24T10:24:10Z absolutezer0: Hey beach :) yea I'm new here....When i use the y-or-n-p a new-line gets automatically printed in output(which is not expected) could you please help me resolve this ? im using sbcl 2.0
2021-05-24T10:32:10Z phoe: absolutezer0: could you paste what you get e.g. on https://plaster.tymoon.eu/ ?
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2021-05-24T10:54:14Z absolutezer0: Sure phoe ....  https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2457
2021-05-24T10:58:11Z Xach: dang, iterate breaking stuff now
2021-05-24T11:00:03Z Xach: http://report.quicklisp.org/2021-05-24/failure-report/eazy-project.html#eazy-project for example
2021-05-24T11:12:22Z phoe: "This use is now deprecated and will cease to be supported in a future version."
2021-05-24T11:12:23Z phoe: woop
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2021-05-24T11:12:52Z phoe: absolutezer0: this is PCL
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2021-05-24T11:13:01Z phoe: I remember this issue from before, one second...
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2021-05-24T11:15:01Z absolutezer0: Yea
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2021-05-24T11:19:50Z phoe: yes, I recognize this
2021-05-24T11:20:19Z phoe: the issue is that y-or-n-p is not specified to output strictly the kind of output PCL requires
2021-05-24T11:20:56Z phoe: so if you want to have full control over newlines, you'd need to implement it in a way that fits your needs
2021-05-24T11:22:41Z absolutezer0: How do I do that?
2021-05-24T11:24:05Z phoe: in general, (defun my-y-or-n-p (...) ...)
2021-05-24T11:24:37Z phoe: if you don't feel confident enough in doing that, you might bear with your Lisp implementation and simply try to ignore that newline for now until you progress further into PCL
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2021-05-24T11:34:58Z absolutezer0: Ohhh ok, thank you so much! Could also point me to some other awesome lisp resources?
2021-05-24T11:35:38Z absolutezer0: Books ,YouTube channels ?
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2021-05-24T11:37:39Z edgar-rft: absolutezer0: a huge collection of links is here -> https://www.cliki.net/index
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2021-05-24T11:51:09Z phoe: absolutezer0: https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook and https://stevelosh.com/blog/2018/08/a-road-to-common-lisp/
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2021-05-24T11:54:49Z absolutezer0: Thank you so much :)
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2021-05-24T13:47:36Z rpg: Xach: Sorry about the iterate issues, but there was an old bug in ITERATE that really *was* a bug, and it's impossible to fix it w/o causing problems. But you should see only single warnings per affected library.
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2021-05-24T13:48:33Z rpg: If you like, I could suggest a recipe you could put in to avoid this problem.
2021-05-24T13:52:33Z rpg: But it really is something bad, and we can't just leave it in.
2021-05-24T13:54:26Z Xach: rpg: ok. i will report bugs to the broken library authors.
2021-05-24T13:54:34Z Xach: "a single warning" breaks building on SBCL
2021-05-24T13:55:03Z rpg: Xach: That would be good, and if you need a wrap-around for this, there's a special warning class that could be muffled.
2021-05-24T13:56:22Z rpg: Xach: Quick summary -- ITERATE mistakenly defines COUNT as an iterate clause keyword, but that conflicts with CL, because the codewalker has no way to know if the programmer wanted CL:COUNT or iterate's interpretation of COUNT.  The original paper clearly states that cases like that (conflicts with CL) should NOT be defined in ITERATE.
2021-05-24T13:56:52Z rpg: With the benefit of hindsight, I wish that NONE of these had been defined, and that EVERYTHING was of the COUNTING form...
2021-05-24T13:57:39Z rpg will check to confirm that this warning class is exported.
2021-05-24T13:59:13Z Xach: It doesn't make any sense to muffle the warning for an aggregator like me. That just means it will fail when other people try to load it without muffling. And there's no gradual phase-out with a full cl:warn warning. It won't build on SBCL under default settings.
2021-05-24T14:01:02Z Bike: sbcl has an internal deprecation system that starts with a style warning and then becomes a full warning as it gets more and more obsolete, which seems reasonable
2021-05-24T14:01:43Z Bike: it goes early = style warning when compiling, late = warning when compiling, final = warning when compiling and error when running
2021-05-24T14:01:44Z Xach: quicklisp contributes to problems in this area by muffling build output too much, but i don't know a good fix for the situation
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2021-05-24T14:03:12Z rpg: Xach: OK, I had forgotten to export the warning.  Quick question for advice: should I rename it something obscure like ITERATE-CLAUSE-DEPRECATION-WARNING ? That's a mouthful of marbles, but would be less likely to cause pain for people who USE iterate than would DEPRECATION-WARNING.
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2021-05-24T14:04:02Z rpg: I'm trying to not be difficult, but it's hard in this case, where the mistake was baked in so long ago.
2021-05-24T14:04:51Z rpg: Anyway, the quick fix is to use COUNTING instead of COUNT, or ... if they *wanted* CL:COUNT, they need to switch to FUNCALL or something awful like that.
2021-05-24T14:05:56Z rpg: Or... maybe I should just do something real fancy like export it from `ITERATE-WARNINGS` package.
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2021-05-24T14:09:46Z rpg: `iterate-warnings:deprecation-warning` is probably the best choice, so as to make it clear it's public, but also not take a chance of breaking code that USEs ITERATE.
2021-05-24T14:10:04Z Bike: or some kind of iterate plumbing package more generally
2021-05-24T14:10:19Z rpg: Bike: `iterate-conditions`?
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2021-05-24T14:11:16Z rpg: Bike: these are not internal things -- they are just things people need to know about, but that can't be exported without danger of messing up the environment.  So not really plumbing -- or at least not INTERNAL plumbing
2021-05-24T14:12:38Z rpg: Xach: If you like, I could apply a `release` tag or branch to ITERATE while we dial this in.  You could test with master, but not incorporate until things shake out.
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2021-05-24T14:21:31Z Xach: rpg: i think a branch would be helpful at the moment. i was hoping to make a quicklisp release soon, and having a temporary repreive would help give people a little more time to fix things before they are dropped from quicklisp.
2021-05-24T14:21:49Z Xach: I also understand if you'd rather not do that - it's up to you how much effort you want to put forth.
2021-05-24T14:21:52Z rpg: Xach: OK, I will make a release branch.
2021-05-24T14:22:17Z Xach: Sometimes libraries are abandoned and will never be fixed, and the delay doesn't matter
2021-05-24T14:26:48Z rpg: Xach: I have just pushed `release`.  It's set to 1.5.2, which fixes a couple of bugs, but in what I think are non-visible ways. If this still causes pain, LMK. (I will be AFK for a little while -- you can reach me by email or minion)
2021-05-24T14:28:38Z rpg: I can roll back release farther, if necessary, but I would prefer to get these two fixes out there.
2021-05-24T14:30:38Z Xach: rpg: thanks, i'll test with that.
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2021-05-24T21:43:51Z copec: Anyone here a Drakma maintainer? https://github.com/edicl/drakma/issues/113
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2021-05-24T21:55:09Z phoe: copec: cannot reproduce
2021-05-24T21:55:53Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2461#2461
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2021-05-24T22:01:21Z copec: I also have :additional-headers does that change the behavior?
2021-05-24T22:02:50Z phoe: copec: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2462#2462
2021-05-24T22:02:51Z phoe: not for me
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2021-05-24T22:07:47Z copec: some want to remain more private details edited: https://unaen.org/pb/5x8  function: https://unaen.org/pb/389
2021-05-24T22:08:49Z phoe: could you replace all the function calls with literal strings? like uri->string or api-key->header
2021-05-24T22:08:56Z phoe: that'll be easier for me to debug
2021-05-24T22:08:57Z copec: yes
2021-05-24T22:14:04Z phoe: also wait a second
2021-05-24T22:14:12Z phoe: why are you posting something of Content-Length 0
2021-05-24T22:14:32Z phoe: and why is this thing printed before the real POST call
2021-05-24T22:14:49Z phoe: what is the function DISABLE-DNS-PLESK-XML-PACKET doing?
2021-05-24T22:14:59Z phoe: is it returning something, or is it printing to *standard-output*?
2021-05-24T22:16:28Z copec: (setf drakma:*header-stream* *standard-output*)
2021-05-24T22:16:38Z copec: is what I did to see why it wasn't working
2021-05-24T22:16:46Z copec: or possibily
2021-05-24T22:17:02Z phoe: what is the return value of (disable-dns-plesk-xml-packet (or (gethash domain site-ids) (gethash domain site-alias-ids))) ?
2021-05-24T22:17:15Z phoe: because I am betting like $2 that it is NIL
2021-05-24T22:18:18Z copec: https://unaen.org/pb/3gz
2021-05-24T22:18:30Z phoe: ha!
2021-05-24T22:18:36Z phoe: gimme $2
2021-05-24T22:18:52Z phoe: if you replace FORMAT T with FORMAT NIL then this thing should work as expected
2021-05-24T22:19:12Z phoe: you are printing to standard output and returning NIL instead of printing nothing and returning the formatted string
2021-05-24T22:19:47Z copec: ohhhh, efff
2021-05-24T22:21:18Z copec: Do you have a paypal phoe?
2021-05-24T22:21:31Z phoe: I do
2021-05-24T22:21:48Z phoe: and this is a proof that one can make money on lisp!
2021-05-24T22:21:55Z phoe: thanks, good night
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2021-05-25T03:12:17Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-05-25T06:21:24Z MrtnDk[m]: Goodmorning beach
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2021-05-25T06:28:36Z ldbeth: hello
2021-05-25T06:29:37Z MrtnDk[m]: ldbeth Goodmorning
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2021-05-25T08:28:30Z phoe: hey hi
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2021-05-25T08:30:00Z beach: Hey phoe.  Still on freenode?
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2021-05-25T08:46:57Z phoe: yep, I am currently on both
2021-05-25T08:47:07Z phoe: but #commonlisp on libera is growing so I might want to jump soonish
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2021-05-25T08:53:42Z beach: OK.
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2021-05-25T09:09:16Z luis: the new channel name is not great
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2021-05-25T09:25:06Z beach: How so?
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2021-05-25T11:03:05Z Xach: My client can't connect to the network.
2021-05-25T11:03:14Z phoe: what is the error?
2021-05-25T11:03:47Z Xach: Connection reset by peer.
2021-05-25T11:04:20Z jdz: Xach: I had that problem today, and then I checked the "SSL" checkbox.
2021-05-25T11:04:37Z ldbeth: 0525 18:11 -t-42- [Global Notice] Sorry for the noise! We are moving
2021-05-25T11:04:38Z ldbeth:          some servers around.
2021-05-25T11:04:47Z ldbeth: could be related
2021-05-25T11:05:08Z phoe: I can connect just fine via kiwiirc and via irssi
2021-05-25T11:05:11Z phoe: hmmm
2021-05-25T11:05:27Z ldbeth: or with ERC
2021-05-25T11:05:29Z phoe: which hostname do you use?
2021-05-25T11:05:32Z Xach: I have tried for a few days without success. I don't know if my irssi supports TLS.
2021-05-25T11:06:46Z Xach: (it's linked with libssl so i bet it does)
2021-05-25T11:07:54Z Xach: hmm
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2021-05-25T11:10:15Z jdz: I might have checked the checkbox on libera network :/
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2021-05-25T12:40:36Z luis: beach: #lisp is nicer than #commonlisp, I guess. (Shouldn't it be #common-lisp in any case?)
2021-05-25T12:41:46Z phoe: luis: libera chat has naming rules where #\- denotes children channels
2021-05-25T12:42:14Z luis: ACK.
2021-05-25T12:42:32Z luis: phoe: no chance of grabbing #lisp for common lisp?
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2021-05-25T12:46:35Z phoe: luis: I have mailed libera.chat staff for ops on that channel but I got no response
2021-05-25T12:46:43Z phoe: and that's been, like, a few days ago
2021-05-25T12:51:41Z selwyn: i imagine they are very busy
2021-05-25T12:51:49Z phoe: they are
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2021-05-25T14:06:55Z MrtnDk[m]: phoe  What are "children channels" ?
2021-05-25T14:08:18Z phoe: MrtnDk[m]: see libera naming policy, they have it on their website
2021-05-25T14:23:02Z aeth: usually you see it as -dev
2021-05-25T14:23:07Z aeth: or maybe -offtopic
2021-05-25T14:23:12Z aeth: It's the same on Freenode
2021-05-25T14:23:43Z aeth: It's just that Lisp's off-topic is #lispcafe (a separate thing) and there is no #lisp-dev because Lisp fragmented into a million pieces decades ago
2021-05-25T14:24:27Z aeth: an example of an off-topic channel is #fedora-social (for #fedora the Linux distro)
2021-05-25T14:24:34Z jdz: That naming scheme works better for projects, not for programming languages.
2021-05-25T14:24:48Z aeth: yeah, more for distros or apps/games
2021-05-25T14:25:01Z aeth: perhaps single-implementation languages, too, but who uses those
2021-05-25T14:25:06Z jdz: Or any other FOSS projects.
2021-05-25T14:25:52Z jdz: Works really bad for meta-languages, like "lisp."
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2021-05-25T14:26:47Z aeth: Also doesn't work out well for two (or more) word names, since you want there to be a hyphen (at least if you're a Lisper) but you can't. Although it's not too unlike web domains, where hyphens are unexpected and unusual.
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2021-05-25T14:29:06Z jdz: Some software has solved this problem by converting single dashes to double as an escape mechanism.  I personally would not like if #common--lisp either.
2021-05-25T14:29:25Z jdz: s/if/l.
2021-05-25T14:29:34Z jdz: Buh, whatever.
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2021-05-25T14:37:15Z aeth: The solution imo would be to return to usenet's conventions, at least partially, since comp.lang. is unnecessary
2021-05-25T14:37:19Z aeth: i.e. . in channel names
2021-05-25T14:37:31Z aeth: idk if IRC can be extended to support that, though. I doubt it's supported in the original
2021-05-25T14:37:44Z aeth: Then you could have common-lisp, common-lisp.sbcl, etc.
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2021-05-25T14:38:05Z phoe: I personally like #commonlisp because we'll get to avoid all the clojure/scheme/racket/elisp questions
2021-05-25T14:39:03Z aeth: have we got Clojure questions in the past 5 years, since peak Clojure happened?
2021-05-25T14:39:13Z aeth: It used to happen all of the time when I first joined, circa 2012
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2021-05-25T14:39:45Z phoe: I remember a lot of elisp and scheme ones, I saw maybe two or three clojure ones during the last years
2021-05-25T14:39:49Z aeth: elisp, that's still a common point of confusion
2021-05-25T14:40:03Z aeth: Especially since even with the strictest "Lisp" definition, you still include both CL and Emacs Lisp
2021-05-25T14:40:21Z aeth: (i.e. is it roughly compatible with maclisp/interlisp)
2021-05-25T14:42:15Z jdz: I think leaving #lisp for general lisp meta discussions is a good thing, not having a pretty name for #commonlisp being the sacrifice.
2021-05-25T14:42:47Z phoe: what do you mean, not pretty
2021-05-25T14:43:59Z jdz: In my opinion using dot instead of dash as a namespace separator would make more sense, but I have not even seen that train leaving.
2021-05-25T14:44:37Z jdz: As aeth suggested.
2021-05-25T14:46:22Z jdz: phoe: There is no pause between words when reading "commonlisp", so it rubs me the wrong way all the time.  Still not used to it.
2021-05-25T14:46:26Z aeth: The issue is (1) if the server support it, which they can patch; but, more importantly, (2) if all IRC clients support it, which they can't patch.
2021-05-25T14:46:56Z aeth: (My most recent use of punctuation is the most programmer usage of punctuation ever)
2021-05-25T14:46:58Z jdz: aeth: Is a period not a valid character in channel names in IRC protocol?  I have no idea.
2021-05-25T14:47:16Z aeth: it does exist
2021-05-25T14:47:20Z aeth: I just joined #asdf.jkl
2021-05-25T14:47:27Z aeth: So, no, it's just a bad policy, then
2021-05-25T14:47:35Z aeth: Usenet-style dots would make way more sense
2021-05-25T14:47:51Z phoe: go suggest this to liberans then
2021-05-25T14:48:10Z phoe: don't think they'll listen, but the idea is nice
2021-05-25T14:48:35Z aeth: Probably too late, since it's just a Ctrl+C Ctrl+V (or hopefully just M-w C-y) of Freenode rules/policies
2021-05-25T14:49:13Z aeth: would work on a new chat network (IRC or not), though
2021-05-25T14:49:17Z aeth: lispchat anyone?
2021-05-25T14:49:25Z jdz: The other is that previously existing communities are used to something already.
2021-05-25T14:49:51Z phoe: aeth: lichat already exists
2021-05-25T14:50:07Z aeth: jdz: right, and the hyphen does seem natural when it's just single words, e.g. #fedora-social again
2021-05-25T14:50:16Z aeth: It only seems unnatural when something that could be hyphenated can't be
2021-05-25T14:50:34Z aeth: I guess you could call it #lisp-common though :-p
2021-05-25T14:51:04Z aeth: if only English had French word order (although to be fair, French is fairly random about which side of the word the adjective goes on)
2021-05-25T14:51:07Z tfb: aeth: yes, I was going to say: lisp.common, lisp.maclisp, lisp.elisp.  Uck
2021-05-25T14:51:13Z jdz: I bet computer people are already very used to hierarchical naming schemes with dots as separators (SNMP, domain names, Java packages, usenet groups, etc.).
2021-05-25T14:51:33Z aeth: I mean, I often search things in reverse order than what's natural, e.g. "weather $location"
2021-05-25T14:51:39Z aeth: It's a very programmer thing to do
2021-05-25T14:52:05Z aeth: Because I'm narrowing down a search, rather than writing natural language.
2021-05-25T14:52:10Z jdz: So #fedora-social people should not be too opposed to #fedora.social.  But that's a change, and habits die hard.
2021-05-25T14:52:18Z aeth: right
2021-05-25T14:52:29Z aeth: plus, any change over Freenode makes it slightly less likely to switch
2021-05-25T14:52:42Z aeth: one thing about dots in names is that it might affect logging, especially on Windows
2021-05-25T14:53:14Z aeth: Random extra .s in files is a very Unix thing.
2021-05-25T14:54:52Z jdz: Yes, and recently I've run into a problem with working with files with multiple dots in CCL, so it's not just Windows.
2021-05-25T14:55:37Z aeth: ouch
2021-05-25T14:55:38Z jdz: Like, I'd expect PROBE-FILE on every result of DIRECTORY to work, but no, CCL disagrees.
2021-05-25T14:55:52Z aeth: I guess it makes sense because Lisp does this weird transformation into an internal data structure
2021-05-25T14:58:08Z jdz: I apologize, CCL had trouble with colons in file names, not dots.
2021-05-25T15:00:23Z copec: Someone just needs to claim common as a project
2021-05-25T15:00:26Z jdz: And PROBE-FILE on such files works as expected, but NAMESTRING adds escape backslashes.
2021-05-25T15:02:33Z copec: There was a guy named Colin that I worked with, and he mucked up some code
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2021-05-25T15:29:42Z MrtnDk[m]: What about #common ?
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2021-05-25T15:30:24Z MrtnDk[m]: If that could be made a child of lisp, that would be kinda cool.
2021-05-25T15:30:47Z MrtnDk[m]: !s/lisp/#lisp/
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2021-05-25T15:34:45Z luis: Would #cl be too cryptic?
2021-05-25T15:35:07Z ChoHag: Yes.
2021-05-25T15:35:55Z ChoHag: Cl is Chlorine, not lisp.
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2021-05-25T15:43:33Z luis: So /that's/ what the package nickname "CL" means!
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2021-05-25T15:48:32Z aeth: someone should make an Open Common Lisp (OpenCL) just to be extra confusing
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2021-05-25T16:09:21Z Steeve: :D
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2021-05-25T16:45:58Z dieggsy: does a nested defun make sense in the context of wanting to define a global function only upon calling some setup function
2021-05-25T16:46:02Z dieggsy: or is there a better way to do that
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2021-05-25T16:49:52Z Bike: honestly, i'm not sure doing that is actually a good idea, but if you really want to defun would do it, i guess.
2021-05-25T16:52:00Z dieggsy: Bike: yeah it's probably not, the setup function switches packages anyway so that's kind of a mess
2021-05-25T16:52:14Z Bike: Switches packages?
2021-05-25T16:52:50Z dieggsy: yeah. it does a build and drops me into a package at the REPL
2021-05-25T16:53:10Z tfb: dieggsy: I think I'd use (setf (fdefinition ...) ...) with a suitable proclaim because nested defun smells like a mistake
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2021-05-25T16:53:19Z tfb: (even though it's kind of the same)
2021-05-25T16:53:30Z Bike: i'm not sure what that means, but keep in mind that the setup function and any defun forms are going to be read at the same time, so binding *package* in the setup function won't change how any of it is read.
2021-05-25T16:54:17Z dieggsy: Bike: yeah, tl:dr the nested defun absolutely doesn't do what I'd expect heh
2021-05-25T16:55:07Z dieggsy: Bike: it just does the equivalent of an interactive in-package at the end of compiling and loading a bunch of code
2021-05-25T16:55:25Z Bike: you don't want to use an actual build system like asdf?
2021-05-25T16:55:39Z dieggsy: Bike: that's exactly what we're using
2021-05-25T16:56:30Z dieggsy: but they have some abstraction over ASDF as well. regardless, i have some convenience function that isn't part of the official code that I'd like to load when a particular package is built, in the context of that package
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2021-05-25T16:57:13Z Bike: packages aren't really "built". you could just load the defpackage form and then you should be able to read your code fine.
2021-05-25T16:59:43Z dieggsy: Bike: the system is compiled, then puts me in a different package. what I'd like to do is not have to manually define my convenience function every time.
2021-05-25T17:00:30Z dieggsy: er, manually load/compile it
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2021-05-25T17:04:46Z dieggsy: like "when you compile this code and load it and put me in this package, also define this function in that context"
2021-05-25T17:06:20Z Bike: can you just write a script that just has (load-system whatever) (in-package whatever) (defun ...)
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2021-05-25T17:21:53Z dieggsy: Bike: that might be the best way to go, thanks. i was just hoping i could define this all in my init file without invoking extra loads or files
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2021-05-25T17:46:46Z toop: im new to lisp from C
2021-05-25T17:47:04Z pranavats: #commonlisp on Libera requires a registered nick. Is that a new policy? I wonder why, since it doesn't require a registered nick  to join this channel.
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2021-05-25T17:47:26Z ChoHag: Knobs! Let's twiddle them!
2021-05-25T17:47:28Z toop: so, how do I declare an int using lisp but leave it unitialized
2021-05-25T17:47:33Z ChoHag: Basically.
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2021-05-25T17:48:08Z toop: and please dont just give me a big document tutorial because I cat learn that way very well
2021-05-25T17:48:13Z toop: or a book
2021-05-25T17:48:22Z aeth: pranavats: such flags tend to be added off and on based on spam waves
2021-05-25T17:48:42Z pranavats: aeth: I see. Thanks.
2021-05-25T17:48:50Z ChoHag: I don't know if lisp supports the concept of an unitialised variable.
2021-05-25T17:49:08Z ChoHag: It generally defines its behaviour.
2021-05-25T17:49:09Z toop: if not just set it to 0  then
2021-05-25T17:49:35Z aeth: ChoHag: Yes, it does. But only globals with DEFVAR
2021-05-25T17:49:42Z aeth: I guess slots can be uninitialized, too
2021-05-25T17:49:47Z epony: garbage collector undefined state is a misnomer
2021-05-25T17:50:19Z toop: if its uninitialized how can you later resize the buffer
2021-05-25T17:50:32Z toop: :s
2021-05-25T17:50:44Z ChoHag: Why is it being uninitialised useful?
2021-05-25T17:51:16Z toop: it isnt most of the time
2021-05-25T17:51:17Z epony: of course for stepping over other people's data and program segments
2021-05-25T17:52:13Z Bike: if you bind a variable to a value but don't actually use the value, the implementation could optimize things to never actually use the value in favor of leaving whatever storage uninitialized until it's set to something that's actually used
2021-05-25T17:52:36Z Bike: but there is no way to bind a variable without initializing it
2021-05-25T17:52:44Z toop: that makes sense yes
2021-05-25T17:52:47Z Bike: you can create some data structures, like arrays, without initializing their contents, though
2021-05-25T17:52:52Z toop: compiler optimization
2021-05-25T17:52:54Z epony: memory safety has costs ;-)
2021-05-25T17:53:24Z toop: so can lisp do the equivelant of this: int x;
2021-05-25T17:53:38Z Bike: "there is no way to bind a variable without initializing it", i said.
2021-05-25T17:54:14Z toop: ok so you have to do this: int x = 5;
2021-05-25T17:54:39Z Bike: analogously, yes.
2021-05-25T17:54:45Z toop: how
2021-05-25T17:54:49Z Bike: you would actually write (let ((x 5)) ...)
2021-05-25T17:54:59Z toop: thx
2021-05-25T17:55:11Z Bike: where ... is the code that can read/write the x varable.
2021-05-25T17:55:14Z Bike: variable*
2021-05-25T17:55:35Z toop: ok I see
2021-05-25T17:56:36Z pranavats: toop: You can have an unbound global variable *x* with (defvar *x*), as  aeth suggested.
2021-05-25T17:56:53Z toop: ok cool
2021-05-25T17:56:57Z Bike: that's unbound, not uninitialized, though
2021-05-25T17:57:29Z toop: hmm (let x 5)
2021-05-25T17:57:30Z toop: (write-line x)
2021-05-25T17:57:37Z Bike: hey
2021-05-25T17:57:44Z Bike: when i write something like "(let ((x 5)) ...)"
2021-05-25T17:57:56Z Bike: and you write something completely different and are confused when it doesn't work
2021-05-25T17:58:08Z Bike: what do i do with that?
2021-05-25T17:58:38Z toop: well ive both heard that lisp is bracket heavy but doesnt have to be
2021-05-25T17:58:51Z pranavats: Bike: Can you elaborate on the difference between unbound and uninitialized variable? I'm a little lost.
2021-05-25T17:59:36Z Bike: pranavats: an unbound variable is in a definite state - unbound. reading its value is an error. an uninitialized variable is in an indefinite state. attempting to read its value is undefined behavior.
2021-05-25T17:59:44Z toop: (let ((x 5)) write-line x) //fail
2021-05-25T17:59:56Z Bike: why did you remove the parentheses
2021-05-25T18:00:01Z pranavats: Bike: Thanks.
2021-05-25T18:00:06Z Bike: you had a perfectly good function call, (write-line x), and you just decided to give up on that?
2021-05-25T18:00:06Z toop: I didnt there
2021-05-25T18:02:33Z toop: I give up on lisp
2021-05-25T18:02:45Z toop: one error is too much
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2021-05-25T20:49:17Z phoe: that's not the attitude
2021-05-25T20:51:55Z phoe: one error is merely the beginning
2021-05-25T20:52:33Z White_Flame: can't trust code that hasn't been debugged, and if it works the first time I always hold it in high suspicion
2021-05-25T20:52:58Z edgar-rft: it's always an error to quit #lisp
2021-05-25T20:53:29Z phadthai: or to request not to be recommended good reading :)
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2021-05-25T21:03:46Z dieggsy: listen, i love to be accommodating to newbies, sometimes overly so, but if you're coming in with absolutely no knowledge and asking the most basic of questions while also saying "don't tell me to go read something" .......lol
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2021-05-25T21:04:48Z dieggsy: "teach me a new programming language, and don't tell me to put any effort into it"
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2021-05-25T22:19:38Z IIsi50MHz: toop didn't request to not see any document, just a "big document tutorial". But yeah, "one error is too much" implies "not a programmer".
2021-05-25T22:19:50Z IIsi50MHz: Or not...a lot of things, really.
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2021-05-25T23:02:20Z copec: I've worked at a medium sized ISP for a decade now, and all of the old perl or python or ruby or php that was some piece of the infrastructure has gone to the wayside, replaced by new python from a couple of new programmers. If it was all originally done in CL, it seems it could be maintained indefinitely
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2021-05-25T23:14:22Z Xach: copec: i worked at ISPs for many years. i often prototyped in CL and then deployed in Perl.
2021-05-25T23:14:44Z Xach: copec: i believe my company is still using a Lisp binary from 2013 to process some telco billing record files.
2021-05-25T23:14:50Z Xach: my old company, that is
2021-05-25T23:14:56Z copec: That's cool
2021-05-25T23:19:15Z copec: I find Perl to be gross but really interesting at the same time
2021-05-25T23:19:45Z Xach: I found perl's dynamic and lexical scoping mix helped me understand CL faster when I started using it.
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2021-05-25T23:20:37Z Xach: And some of Perl's behavior influenced how Quicklisp was designed - I hated the indefinite dependencies of CPAN installs, so I planned to make everything known upfront.
2021-05-25T23:20:47Z Xach: That's got some upsides and downsides.
2021-05-25T23:21:26Z copec: wow, til
2021-05-25T23:23:13Z copec: Perl is almost like a DSL someone would build on Lisp for a whole class of text processing
2021-05-25T23:23:26Z copec: At least, that's how it has struck me
2021-05-25T23:23:55Z copec: I'm not near the degree of programmer you are though
2021-05-25T23:24:17Z Xach: Pfft! ISPs are the stepping stone to Lisp glory!
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2021-05-25T23:37:26Z epony: that's where they grind their teeth, at the stepping stone for that special lisp
2021-05-25T23:43:13Z Xach: the paper about the k2 system for ISP product modeling was very inspiring to me
2021-05-25T23:43:27Z Xach: and i believe rme is an isp veteran as well
2021-05-25T23:46:41Z rme: That's true.
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2021-05-26T01:37:42Z iarebatman: Does anyone know of a good library for doing a simple ICMP ping in CL ?
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2021-05-26T01:49:52Z dieggsy: iarebatman: i googled and found https://github.com/sile/ping but i guess it requires root with SBCL? or something
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2021-05-26T01:50:45Z dieggsy: i don't actually have a 'good' example or anything, i was just curious about your question and was searching around
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2021-05-26T01:54:15Z iarebatman: dieggsy: Thanks, yeah.. I spotted that one and one other specifically for CCL.. I was hoping someone more experienced might know of a hidden gem or something obvious (like maybe usocket supports it or something and it's just not obvious)..
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2021-05-26T01:55:56Z dieggsy: last resort, shell out to ping i guess lol
2021-05-26T01:56:14Z iarebatman: dieggsy: lol =/
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2021-05-26T03:11:32Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-05-26T03:28:52Z sukaeto: FWIW, some asshole just came into #ada and archived the channel for "violating Freenode policy"
2021-05-26T03:29:11Z sukaeto: I can only assume this is because the topic mentioned there was a backup channel on Libera
2021-05-26T03:29:45Z sukaeto: just a warning to everyone, it's probably only a matter of time before they come here, too
2021-05-26T03:31:46Z beach: Something happened to #clasp as well.
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2021-05-26T03:41:39Z saturn2: i would suggest removing "Libera" from the /topic if you want to keep control of your channel
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2021-05-26T03:46:07Z Xach: Sad. I've been visiting freenode #lisp for literally 20 years.
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2021-05-26T04:09:22Z aeth: wait what
2021-05-26T04:09:57Z aeth: right now everyone's on both servers for the most part just in case shit happens and, well, shit happened
2021-05-26T04:10:02Z p_l: aeth: dickbag usurper prince of korea being a dickbag
2021-05-26T04:10:16Z p_l: so now they will reap the field they had sowed
2021-05-26T04:10:32Z aeth: they seized #scheme too
2021-05-26T04:10:41Z p_l: I think it pretty much ensures fsf won't stay on freenode either
2021-05-26T04:10:59Z xantoz: I would just change libera in topic to |_ibera or other way to make their regex not match
2021-05-26T04:10:59Z ChanServ has set mode +o p_l
2021-05-26T04:11:02Z katco: got #guix as well
2021-05-26T04:11:23Z aeth: ah, they didn't mass-kick or anything it's just +i and a bunch of other things so you'll never be able to rejoin
2021-05-26T04:11:50Z xantoz: the mass-kicks I've seen have been initiated by channel owners, clearing out the old channel for a clean move, I suppose
2021-05-26T04:11:58Z p_l changed the topic of #lisp to: Moving to #commonlisp @ '(L i b e r a) | <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/>
2021-05-26T04:12:09Z xantoz: happened in #gentoo, for instance
2021-05-26T04:12:23Z IIsi50MHz: #haiku set +i by themselves, and moved to OFTC in like...six hours of original event, I think.
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2021-05-26T04:12:41Z aeth: nI mean, lol, seizing #scheme while #scheme was about as active on Freenode as on Libera was so incredibly counterproductive because now I'm just... going to #scheme on Libera instead of being on both and maybe staying on Freenode if the Libera thing dies
2021-05-26T04:13:05Z katco: I'm just waiting for matrix to get their libera bridge up and then i'm done with freenode
2021-05-26T04:13:21Z p_l: xantoz: some of the channels are essentially broken anyway with libera's shitting on them
2021-05-26T04:13:25Z aeth: They're literally committing server seppuku
2021-05-26T04:13:30Z p_l: s/libera/freenodecom/
2021-05-26T04:13:33Z xantoz: p_l: the spamming is annoying
2021-05-26T04:13:58Z xantoz: but not sure who is doing it
2021-05-26T04:13:58Z IIsi50MHz: Retroactive /ignore can be nice.
2021-05-26T04:14:22Z sukaeto: I guess this should surprise no one
2021-05-26T04:14:24Z p_l: xantoz: which spam? the privmsg child porn spam is fixable with /umode +R
2021-05-26T04:14:28Z saturn2: freenode is irrevocably dead at this point, i'm only here to gawk at the wreckage
2021-05-26T04:14:40Z xantoz: also some spammers saying to move to libera
2021-05-26T04:14:42Z p_l: the freenodecom wrecking ball is to be observed and mocked
2021-05-26T04:14:54Z aeth: seizing channels = there's no going back and channels that were more active on Freenode than on Libera are now only on Libera, good job
2021-05-26T04:14:58Z sukaeto: tech billionaire's ego was wounded, so now he'll destroy whatever he has to to make himself feel better
2021-05-26T04:14:59Z xantoz: which is annoying in itself (even though I consider libera a viable place to move to)
2021-05-26T04:15:21Z p_l: xantoz: most of those I encountered have been repeating old spam patterns to essentially push bad reputation on libera
2021-05-26T04:15:38Z xantoz: it would make sense for it to be some sort of false flag
2021-05-26T04:16:10Z IIsi50MHz: Yeah.
2021-05-26T04:16:22Z katco: I wish all of these communities were on a federated protocol that is immune to server drama
2021-05-26T04:16:32Z p_l: there's nothing that is immune to drama
2021-05-26T04:17:12Z p_l: drama is known, like rumours, to violate known dimensions of spacetime and achieving distance values below physically-enforced minimum
2021-05-26T04:17:21Z katco: Immune to server drama, yes there is lol
2021-05-26T04:17:21Z sukaeto: "erroneously included"
2021-05-26T04:18:43Z xantoz: katco: it's annoying enough to have to retarget my IRC client to a new server for the 30-something channels I follow... I don't feel like setting up matrix right now (and I don't think I'm alone in this sentiment)
2021-05-26T04:18:59Z xantoz: although some channels I followed did indeed move there, so I guess I'll have to set it up next time I want to do something else but idle in there
2021-05-26T04:21:56Z katco: I understand that switching protocols is a big ask for some people, and i'm not really trying to advocate foe that. I'm just ruminating on the fact that had all these communities been on something like matrix and, say the matrix.org folks went crazy, nothing at all happens to all the rooms.
2021-05-26T04:22:24Z IIsi50MHz: Ah.
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2021-05-26T04:24:34Z katco: I used to live in erc, on freenode, probably 12+ hours a day. Now i'm on matrix on multiple devices with multiple clients. (And I still miss erc)
2021-05-26T04:24:58Z p_l: katco: I'm just saying you underestimate drama and it's ability to mutate to new protocols :)
2021-05-26T04:25:12Z saturn2: i like the idea of matrix, but the implementation leaves a lot to be desired
2021-05-26T04:25:21Z p_l: the server is a joke
2021-05-26T04:25:32Z p_l: there's even a related lisp meme
2021-05-26T04:25:42Z p_l: for the attempts to rewrite it ;)
2021-05-26T04:25:43Z katco: p_l: a bold assumption which I will not respond to
2021-05-26T04:26:54Z katco: I'm not here to champion matrix, i'm just frustrated at the unneeded and unexpected disruption to moat of my communities
2021-05-26T04:27:20Z p_l: yeah, another community I'm active in managed to get splash damage *despite* moving to matrix
2021-05-26T04:27:35Z p_l: due to how appservice-irc handled rasengan's ego-healing
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2021-05-26T06:30:08Z stylewarning: Bye folks, see you on #.*OTHER-CHANNEL*
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2021-05-26T06:39:38Z phoe: good morning
2021-05-26T06:40:39Z phoe: https://twitter.com/Phoul/status/1397406164229361669
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2021-05-26T07:29:48Z phoe: FYI, the Lisp Cafe has officially jumped ships
2021-05-26T07:32:18Z duuqnd: I wish Matrix had a bridge for libera.chat. I'm having a hard time going back to a regular IRC client.
2021-05-26T07:32:28Z phoe: they'll get it soon enough™
2021-05-26T07:33:31Z duuqnd: Yeah, let's hope it won't take too long. I forgot how much I hated regular IRC clients.
2021-05-26T07:33:35Z duuqnd: Also I should probably disconnect my IRC bot from freenode
2021-05-26T07:34:06Z duuqnd: You'll have to let me know next time you need it so I can set it up properly
2021-05-26T07:34:13Z phoe: OK - thanks
2021-05-26T07:34:26Z IIsi50MHz: duuqnd: IRCCloud, temporarily?
2021-05-26T07:34:53Z duuqnd: I hadn't heard of IRCCloud before, I'll check it out
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2021-05-26T07:35:19Z IIsi50MHz: I mean, it makes mobile use nicer, with a builtin bouncer.
2021-05-26T07:35:34Z duuqnd: That's pretty much all I use Matrix for
2021-05-26T07:35:46Z duuqnd: and now my VPS won't let me SSH in, wonderful
2021-05-26T07:36:12Z IIsi50MHz: Free accounts get 2 hours idle timeout, and two servers (plus IRCCloud's pvt server)
2021-05-26T07:37:31Z duuqnd: I might try it, thanks for recommending it
2021-05-26T07:37:36Z IIsi50MHz: It's one of a few sevices with fairly decent IRCv3 support.
2021-05-26T07:37:38Z IIsi50MHz: np
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2021-05-26T07:44:51Z duuqnd: my VPS sure is nice, it just decided that port 22 was old news and refused to connect on it. Once I switched port it's more than happy to work again.
2021-05-26T07:44:57Z duuqnd: Sorry, this is off-topic
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2021-05-26T08:45:52Z seok: Perhaps not the best place to ask, but is there a way to intercept/capture graphics output from another running process ?
2021-05-26T08:46:13Z seok: Running on windows, perhaps I should ask ##windows
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2021-05-26T08:48:47Z phoe: seok: try to see what OBS does
2021-05-26T08:48:58Z seok: What is that ? : o
2021-05-26T08:49:10Z phoe: Open Broadcasting Studio, a program for recording videos/streaming online
2021-05-26T08:49:21Z seok: Open Broadcaster Software | OBS
2021-05-26T08:49:22Z phoe: it has some means of capturing individual windows
2021-05-26T08:49:32Z seok: Oh, nice
2021-05-26T08:49:33Z phoe: seok: oops, TIL
2021-05-26T08:49:59Z seok: Exactly what I needed, thanks !
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2021-05-26T09:00:50Z phoe: dear ops of #lisp - what do we do regarding moving this channel?
2021-05-26T09:03:45Z Shinmera: Is there anything that needs to be done beyond just not using it?
2021-05-26T09:04:13Z seok: Are we moving? : o
2021-05-26T09:04:59Z Shinmera: read the topic.
2021-05-26T09:05:04Z pok: Topic says #commonlisp in the other place.  There's a #lisp there too.  This is confusing.
2021-05-26T09:05:36Z Shinmera: If anything #lisp and ##lisp here are confusing.
2021-05-26T09:05:51Z jdz: pok: Which part of #commonlisp name is confusing?
2021-05-26T09:06:37Z _death: a dutch isp named commo?
2021-05-26T09:06:42Z phoe: Shinmera: I guess either applying +m or placing a redirect upon joining the channel and then making a masskick
2021-05-26T09:06:55Z phoe: _death: per the other network naming guidelines that would be #commo-nlisp
2021-05-26T09:07:03Z pok: jdz: Why is the libera equivalent of this channel not the libera #lisp ?
2021-05-26T09:07:25Z Shinmera: because this channel has been decades of confusion for being about common lisp and not lisp in general
2021-05-26T09:07:33Z Shinmera: so the move was used to fix this issue.
2021-05-26T09:07:34Z jdz: pok: There are reasons, but I don't see anything confusing in the directions given in the topic of this channel.
2021-05-26T09:08:12Z pok: Shinmera: ok, thanks.
2021-05-26T09:08:36Z phoe: mostly because people came to #lisp asking for emacs lisp and scheme help
2021-05-26T09:08:55Z phoe: s/people/some people/
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2021-05-26T10:02:53Z dr_df0: Hi! Is there an easy way to swith mREPL to the package of the currently edited .lisp file in Sly?
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2021-05-26T10:06:34Z phoe: dr_df0: if no one answers, there's a github forum at https://github.com/joaotavora/sly/discussions for sly and Joao asked me to link to it now and then when I see sly questions
2021-05-26T10:06:56Z dr_df0: @phoe thanks for the link
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2021-05-26T10:31:05Z dr_df0: phoe: Joao is super quick answering discussions on github, which is great! Thanks again for a directions
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2021-05-26T10:55:21Z phoe: FYI: we have registered #lisp on Libera and gave it a topic that suits the old ##lisp
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2021-05-26T11:30:52Z epony: the staff are overloaded, channels that have topics and limitations forcing people to other places are probably getting changes in flags.. is this the best plan yet?
2021-05-26T11:31:25Z SAL9000: AFAIK the new staff did a "liberation" pass for channels which mention the new network's name in the topic.
2021-05-26T11:31:53Z SAL9000: The intent appears to have been to remove channels which have locked out their users (+m, etc.) but ended up hitting far broader than ever planned.
2021-05-26T11:32:21Z epony: I saw many channels experience loss of access lists and locked flags and forwards to ## namespaces.. that would be quite unfortunate
2021-05-26T11:33:57Z SAL9000: That's the "liberation", yeah.
2021-05-26T11:35:03Z phoe: the merciful act of liberating freenode from freenode users
2021-05-26T11:36:01Z SAL9000: eh, the apparent intent -- unlocking locked channels -- was good. the implementation, though? leaves much to be desired.
2021-05-26T11:36:34Z epony: is that how it's being advertised on the other network.. lock yourself by setting exodus topics and nudging people to drop?
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2021-05-26T11:37:04Z phoe: SAL9000: afaik it also affected channels that were explicitly *not* locked
2021-05-26T11:37:05Z epony: like mass suicide because no other network can exist
2021-05-26T11:37:36Z SAL9000: phoe: yeah, that's why I said the implementation leaves much to be desired
2021-05-26T11:37:48Z phoe: SAL9000: to put it lightly, yes
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2021-05-26T11:51:23Z p_l: SAL9000: I'm unwilling to consider it accidental, considering "staff" responses
2021-05-26T11:51:42Z phoe: p_l: how is the conclave going?
2021-05-26T11:52:16Z SAL9000: p_l: I was thinking that the overreach may have been accidental; the action itself was not. of course, it's not a good look either way...
2021-05-26T11:52:20Z p_l: not yet set up because I'm le fucking tired and I think I'm hitting that point where it's tiredness that prevents me from socking the neighbour for using SDS
2021-05-26T11:52:45Z p_l: SAL9000: at best it was "sorcerer's apprentice" scenario where the intent was malicious from start
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2021-05-26T11:54:04Z SAL9000: Well, yeah, unilaterally interfering with channel ops is extremely heavy-handed for IRC.
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2021-05-26T11:55:58Z phoe: p_l: well, when it comes to ops, we don't have all many active ones
2021-05-26T11:56:24Z phoe: all in all I am aware of fe[nl]ix, Krystof, Xach, antifuchs, slyrus, drewc, lacedaemon, p_l, and me
2021-05-26T11:57:16Z phoe: where fe[nl]ix is not in the chanserv access list, but must have an auto-op flag set
2021-05-26T11:58:26Z epony: yes, that account is +O
2021-05-26T11:58:33Z p_l: I'm probably not going to pick up operatorship on libera, but I'd be interested in keeping any decision to torch #lisp being made somewhat democratically
2021-05-26T11:58:38Z phoe: oh wait! he is lacedaemon, that would explain things :D
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2021-05-26T11:58:50Z phoe: p_l: re: decision, yes, same here
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2021-05-26T11:59:43Z p_l: I haven't been as active as I could in last few years here, but #lisp@freenode has been close to half my life, I'll miss it
2021-05-26T11:59:56Z epony: on the channels affected, it's not just interfering, it's wiping the access list and setting flags that lock out and forward to ##
2021-05-26T12:00:12Z SAL9000: re "somewhat democratically" -- anything would be more democratic than what Leenode did
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2021-05-26T12:01:25Z phoe: p_l: long live #commonlisp on libera though!
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2021-05-26T12:01:50Z epony: I don't trust rage quitters..
2021-05-26T12:02:16Z epony: since their actions lead to this
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2021-05-26T12:07:47Z frodef: sorry, freenode is going down?
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2021-05-26T12:09:24Z p_l: frodef: well... sorta
2021-05-26T12:09:36Z p_l: frodef: things started as relatively unhappy split
2021-05-26T12:09:48Z p_l: with most staffers and sponsors withdrawing from freenode
2021-05-26T12:09:57Z phoe: frodef: the most recent episode of the freenode drama is https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27289071
2021-05-26T12:10:21Z p_l: frodef: then freenode's new management decided to double down on being cartoon dickheads
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2021-05-26T12:10:23Z frodef: thanks, https://freenode.net didn't inform me very much..
2021-05-26T12:10:47Z p_l: frodef: freenode.net pages are actively pushing disinfo now
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2021-05-26T13:58:48Z phoe: OK, I'm disconnecting from Freenode - in case there's some sort of conclave, my vote is "burn it to the ground"
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2021-05-26T14:28:27Z jcowan: Technically the # to ## actions are enforcing what was always Freenode rules, but never enforced.  Libera rules are relaxed: every channel whose topic is relevant to the network can have #; only completely off-topic channels (sex and drugs and rock'n'roll) have to use ##.
2021-05-26T14:30:29Z aeth: selectively enforcing rules against perceived rivals when it's politically convenient to damage them...
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2021-05-26T14:31:50Z luis: classic :)
2021-05-26T14:33:42Z p_l: jcowan: that misses the part where a huge chunk of channels were grandfathered as they existed before the ## policy
2021-05-26T14:35:33Z Lord_of_Life: Not being a complete douche is always an option
2021-05-26T14:35:40Z aeth: they essentially proved their worst critics correct yesterday, and honestly, I was fine to just be on both networks indefinitely, but at this point I'm probably just leaving Freenode soon
2021-05-26T14:36:36Z aeth: For a few magic moments, Lisp IRC activity online essentially doubled because the channel count essentially doubled, but both sets of channels were active.
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2021-05-26T14:39:16Z luis: Yeah, you could have up to two conversations on the same topic
2021-05-26T14:39:59Z aeth: A bunch of channels that they shut down because of the /topic were more active on Freenode than on Libera, regardless of the status of the Freenode channel. And if they waited it out, Freenode could have won because change is hard.
2021-05-26T14:40:39Z luis: indeed
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2021-05-26T14:50:24Z jcowan: Actually, reaching a phase transition isn't as hard as you think.  See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipping_point_(sociology)
2021-05-26T14:51:18Z jcowan: Getting the VERY LAST USER is hard, but isn't really necessary unless they are the one and only world-class expert on the topic.
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2021-05-26T15:32:52Z Krystof: luis: and both of those topics were IRC networks
2021-05-26T15:34:50Z luis: not always! :D
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2021-05-26T16:44:57Z aeth: I wonder how fuzzy their "Libera" /topic ban is, like if you said "liberals" did you get banned
2021-05-26T16:48:56Z Lord_of_Life: aeth: consider https://nitter.cc/mjg59/status/1397297559777906691
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2021-05-26T16:58:04Z sukaeto: re: that twitter thread
2021-05-26T16:58:10Z sukaeto: I'm suddenly reminded of: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5zQpN28xa4
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2021-05-26T17:03:57Z Bike: "and WE didn't even do anything wrong" ahaha
2021-05-26T17:04:31Z Lord_of_Life: great show
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2021-05-26T17:07:20Z Shinmera: Lord_of_Life: that twitter thread is simultaneously extremely yikes and also the least surprising thing I've read in a while
2021-05-26T17:07:47Z Shinmera: or, well, not twitter, but you get the point
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2021-05-26T21:15:51Z rasenqan: -server notice- All references to libera.chat are now subject to network-wide ban (k-line)!
2021-05-26T21:16:35Z White_Flame: uh, does that apply to that line itself?
2021-05-26T21:16:50Z White_Flame: oh, s/g/q/, just a troll, nevermind
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2021-05-26T21:17:21Z White_Flame: from cloaked user "leavfreenode"
2021-05-26T21:18:52Z rasenqan: White_Flame: you're a SJW-loving libera-loving liberal
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2021-05-26T21:46:06Z Shinmera: some people sure are very right in the head.
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2021-05-26T21:51:24Z aeth: I mean, it takes a lot of staff to keep the spam away
2021-05-26T21:51:58Z aeth: that's kind of the outcome I expected from a staff mass-resignation. The return of spam everywhere. Not... you know, what happened instead in the past 24 hours
2021-05-26T21:52:09Z Shinmera: I expected both.
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2021-05-26T22:01:34Z White_Flame: hope for the best, expect the worst.  Expectations met.
2021-05-26T22:08:42Z aeth: day 1 all I did was squat the name `aeth` (didn't even register it) so no one could take it because that's about all I needed to do to see what would happen
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2021-05-26T23:57:50Z epony: how come a random entry spambot account made a 99% accurate portrait of you in under 1 minute.. I'd be concerned much more about that, than what it actually said
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2021-05-27T03:16:56Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-05-27T03:25:59Z ldbeth: ping
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2021-05-27T03:27:17Z beach: Hey ldbeth.
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2021-05-27T07:45:35Z albusp: I just realised I have some systems duplicated, reasons unknown to me. e.g. I have clx both under ~/.config/common-lisp/source and ~/quicklisp/... Is this a common problem that's already handled somehow or should I do some house cleaning?
2021-05-27T07:46:29Z albusp: I should note that I use quicklisp when I don't have a lib locally or to update existing ones, and use asdf:load-system most of the time
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2021-05-27T08:34:51Z beach: albusp: You might consider moving to that other channel on that other server that can't be mentioned here.  The current trend seems to be to put symbolic links to projects (or the projects themselves) in ~/quicklisp/local-projects.
2021-05-27T08:35:12Z beach: Then you do (ql:update-local-projects) when something changes.
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2021-05-27T08:42:29Z MichaelRaskin: To be fair, libera.chat is only unmentionable in the channel topics
2021-05-27T08:43:43Z MichaelRaskin: At least so far, and for channels not directly related to freenode operations…
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2021-05-27T08:45:10Z albusp: beach: thanks!
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2021-05-27T09:26:59Z pjb: What do you get if you concatenate rasen with gan ?
2021-05-27T09:27:15Z pjb: rasengan
2021-05-27T09:27:21Z pjb: hmmm
2021-05-27T09:28:22Z pjb: Oh, we're missing Sigyn.   https://twitter.com/alyxw/status/1397774897875673090
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2021-05-27T12:24:24Z luis: yeah, that's... just silly
2021-05-27T12:24:42Z luis: bye then! see you on the other side
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2021-05-27T17:03:53Z aeth: well, RIP. This has been channel #5 on my IRC client for so long but I think it's about time to put the other Lisp channel here instead
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2021-05-27T18:08:23Z jcowan: THEY don't seem to notice if you call him ragnarok.
2021-05-27T18:20:42Z White_Flame: just call him naruto
2021-05-27T18:22:07Z IIsi50MHz: I've somehow acquired  the tendenct to call him rasen-thingy.
2021-05-27T18:22:10Z Lord_of_Life: Do not use a saint's name in vain!
2021-05-27T18:23:12Z IIsi50MHz: But it make's me feel like Minister Fudge, tryin to deflect after the return of Voldemort became public. x_x
2021-05-27T18:24:28Z Lord_of_Life: I am impressed you remember that name
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2021-05-27T18:53:33Z IIsi50MHz drapes a cloth over his set of the books 
2021-05-27T18:54:04Z IIsi50MHz: Maybe that should have been a clojure.
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2021-05-27T19:08:27Z White_Flame: I've spend hours with rasengan in a channel, using the terms rasengan and libera/libera.chat liberally, and there's no issue
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2021-05-27T19:09:29Z White_Flame: apparently the sigyn bot tries to algorithmically detect spam based on what's repeated too much
2021-05-27T19:10:08Z White_Flame: (well, no issue with getting banned for use, specifically.  every issue with freenode behavior)
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2021-05-27T19:29:54Z p_l: White_Flame: also possible someone reverted it because, well, it's all an ego driven thing
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2021-05-27T19:31:36Z White_Flame: yep
2021-05-27T19:31:47Z White_Flame: lots of "apparently", "i heard that", etc
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2021-05-27T19:32:46Z aeth: once administration gets too strict, people get paranoid about what they can and can't say
2021-05-27T19:33:19Z White_Flame: I tend to not be very censored
2021-05-27T19:33:28Z White_Flame: and especially at this point, what's the fear in getting k-lined?
2021-05-27T19:34:54Z White_Flame: when rasengan entered #fsf, everybody just stopped talking about him, so I started directly
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2021-05-27T19:37:21Z aeth: the on-topic channels are moving, but the off-topic ones still seem 50/50 split so getting banned from Freenode would still cut me off of some communities, at least for now.
2021-05-27T19:37:39Z aeth: I suspect Freenode will slowly die, though, since the "on-topic" was the reason to come here and the general IRC networks are slowly dying
2021-05-27T19:38:19Z White_Flame: literally every single channel I was in is dead or moved now, except for #fsf
2021-05-27T19:38:57Z aeth: well, some are huge general channels that will always exist on both networks like ##hardware
2021-05-27T19:39:00Z White_Flame: (which is going through a big discussion process)
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2021-05-27T19:41:21Z White_Flame: even the general channels are going to lose a chunk of users
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2021-05-27T19:41:55Z White_Flame: if that chunk includes ops or the socially prominent users, that could compound
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2021-05-27T19:44:19Z aeth: the problem with off-topic/general is that the ops behind the channels can be completely different so the name might be the same but the channel might not
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2021-05-27T19:55:09Z p_l: White_Flame: re "apparently/I heard...", the problem is that sometimes you are trying to do black box reverse engineering of systems that are simultaneously adversarially modified
2021-05-27T19:55:37Z p_l: For example the bot closing channels for "advertising other networks"
2021-05-27T19:56:21Z White_Flame: the bot is not open source, because it would let spammers evade it (actual stated reason)
2021-05-27T19:56:42Z Bike: lmao
2021-05-27T19:56:50Z White_Flame: ... on freenode
2021-05-27T19:56:58Z Bike: the bot axed #clasp by the way
2021-05-27T19:57:04Z White_Flame: yep
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2021-05-27T19:57:25Z White_Flame: as I said, there's 1 live channel left for me (considering this one a shambling corpse)
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2021-05-27T19:57:41Z Bike: really efficient bridge burning
2021-05-27T19:57:43Z White_Flame: and even that I'm going to leavve when their official decision is made
2021-05-27T19:57:48Z Bike: what the fuck is even the point, naruto man
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2021-05-27T19:58:09Z White_Flame: nostalgia, and "I'm going to make it even better if I"m in charge!"
2021-05-27T19:58:47Z p_l: Rich bro ego trip
2021-05-27T19:58:52Z White_Flame: (that, or some subversive business reason that hasn't been spotted yet)
2021-05-27T19:59:36Z p_l: And while it might be judgemental of me - nobody who essentially buys his way into deposed imperial family and actually uses that status is well in the head
2021-05-27T19:59:41Z White_Flame: I'm keeping my freenode burner email address open, to see if it starts getting spam at some point
2021-05-27T19:59:50Z p_l: (and that's the most positive judgement from me)
2021-05-27T20:00:14Z Bike: the king of korea thing is extremely fucking funny
2021-05-27T20:00:18Z White_Flame: he had plenty of chances, and tons of people begging him, to actually communicate and clear things up
2021-05-27T20:00:40Z White_Flame: so yeah, judgement is all we have, based on stated wafflewords and observed actions
2021-05-27T20:01:28Z p_l: Bike: when ones actions might have both Koreas co-op in making a guillotine, well, that's an important judgement too
2021-05-27T20:01:41Z White_Flame: lol
2021-05-27T20:01:51Z White_Flame: political unity through internet drama
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2021-05-27T20:12:55Z aeth: I mean, that's something that I didn't consider ever being an issue for Freenode... that North Korea's cyberattack team might eventually consider it a target because a political rival runs it.
2021-05-27T20:13:27Z aeth: wasn't on my radar for 2021 but it is now a possibility
2021-05-27T20:14:34Z aeth: I mean, claim some random European throne and nobody will care, even pretend to be emperor of the US and nobody will care (see: Emperor Norton). But the North Koreans... they might actually have an issue.
2021-05-27T20:16:10Z Bike: that's pretty fanciful
2021-05-27T20:16:25Z Bike: i realize of course that "pretender to the korean throne takes over an irc network" is already pretty fanciful
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2021-05-27T20:17:11Z aeth: I'm just saying that North Korean politics is not a thing that I would even want to tangentially risk getting close to.
2021-05-27T20:18:08Z aeth: On the other hand e.g. if I bought the rights to the non-Habsburg claim to the Hungarian throne, I don't think Hungary would care.
2021-05-27T20:19:07Z aeth: maybe I should, just so I can take over an IRC network one day.
2021-05-27T20:24:17Z aeth: (the only potential nobility in my rather diverse family tree is Hungarian... very small, and only potential, not demonstrated, but that can be fixed with money... so I would have to settle for the Kingdom of Hungary)
2021-05-27T20:25:23Z aeth: (a ton of people are directly related to Charlemagne, and I'm jealous, because they can claim both France and Germany)
2021-05-27T20:28:21Z Bike: hungary would be austria-hungary, so hey
2021-05-27T20:30:44Z aeth: well, no, that would be the Habsburg claim
2021-05-27T20:30:49Z p_l: aeth: the question is more what you would do with the title
2021-05-27T20:30:52Z aeth: I'd have to make the strictly Hungarian claim
2021-05-27T20:30:59Z aeth: p_l: as I said, try to take over an IRC network, obviously
2021-05-27T20:30:59Z p_l: Lee is making use of it
2021-05-27T20:31:07Z p_l: And not just for freenode
2021-05-27T20:31:41Z p_l: Meanwhile *both* Koreas consider whatever remains of anyone actively trying to upheld the claim to be enemy of the state, afaik
2021-05-27T20:35:59Z aeth: Bike: as someone potentially related to Hungarian nobility (and, really, if you have a relative who did geneology, you will at the very least find nobility candidates if nothing else), that would make me a distant relative of Matthias Corvinus, the last great native Hungarian king of Hungary.
2021-05-27T20:36:12Z aeth: Bike: which, I mean, is probably good enough to become a pretender to the Hungarian throne for enough money
2021-05-27T20:36:32Z aeth: because, you know, being a pretender is a bit of a joke since none of them have a serious chance of taking power
2021-05-27T20:36:46Z aeth: it's one step away from buying real estate on the moon at this point
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2021-05-27T20:40:06Z aeth: Poland would be even easier to claim.
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2021-05-27T20:40:33Z aeth: p_l: I bet you could probably become a pretender to the Polish throne
2021-05-27T20:42:15Z p_l: aeth: there wasn't official succession line that stuck since 15th century, so no
2021-05-27T20:42:36Z p_l: There are some that are treated like circus freaks
2021-05-27T20:42:37Z aeth: p_l: right, but you can pay a bunch of Polish "nobility" to hold an "election" and it would be even easier to establish that claim
2021-05-27T20:46:15Z aeth: If we plan things right, every Lisper can be a monarch!
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2021-05-27T20:50:06Z aeth: We can make Common Lisp the lingua franca of nobility!
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2021-05-27T20:58:03Z aeth: White_Flame: how about you, what throne are you going to claim?
2021-05-27T21:02:45Z White_Flame: the porcelain one
2021-05-27T21:05:31Z aeth: Reverse Polish notation is e.g. `4 5 /`. Reverse reverse Polish notation, or Polish notation, is then `/ 4 5`. So basically unparenthesized s-expressions. Therefore, Lisp should be the programming language of Poland.
2021-05-27T21:09:58Z aeth: p_l: so, basically, that's why you should be the monarch of Poland.
2021-05-27T21:12:37Z p_l: One major problem with that is that so far most cases of claimed nobility is people I have issues with
2021-05-27T21:13:18Z White_Flame: polish notation is not about prefix/postfix, but rather about the function name implying its list of parameters, and therefore not requiring delimiters
2021-05-27T21:13:22Z White_Flame: (afaiui)
2021-05-27T21:13:23Z Shinmera: It's almost like wanting to be nobility is directly linked with being not a very cool person.
2021-05-27T21:13:36Z White_Flame: *implying the length of its list of parameters
2021-05-27T21:13:56Z aeth: Shinmera: hey, come on, as an aspiring galactic emperor, I don't see the problem
2021-05-27T21:14:12Z p_l: Shinmera: those that stick up with it seem like it
2021-05-27T21:14:37Z p_l: Those that treat it as bit of family history that doesn't entitle them to anything anymore seem much more sensible
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2021-05-27T21:14:47Z aeth: p_l: more seriously, I think the people who appeal to pretenders are the people who are essentially buying lottery tickets of hoping that they'd be part of the government in the unlikely event of a restoration
2021-05-27T21:15:03Z aeth: but it's so unlikely that idk why they bother
2021-05-27T21:15:12Z aeth: what was the last restored monarchy? Spain?
2021-05-27T21:15:18Z White_Flame: if they wanted to be royalty, they should go marry one
2021-05-27T21:15:27Z p_l: (that's also my approach to the rumour of having noble great-great grandpa, even though I would like to confirm it one day)
2021-05-27T21:15:53Z aeth: White_Flame: I mean, yeah, that's the other downside of being a pretender. You have to marry relatives of other pretenders, to strengthen/consolidate claims. And you're right back to playing Crusader Kings 3.
2021-05-27T21:17:48Z White_Flame was just poking at the harry/meghan thing
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2021-05-27T23:13:43Z aeth: wow, I guess that's it for this channel then
2021-05-27T23:14:11Z aeth: only a tiny bit of on-topic in the past 24 hours
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2021-05-27T23:37:36Z IIsi50MHz: yey
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2021-05-28T00:00:30Z p_l: still 236 lurkers
2021-05-28T00:00:59Z p_l: and unlike on #lisp-pl, I don't have founder status here
2021-05-28T00:01:11Z p_l: so I can't try to push people silently ;)
2021-05-28T00:01:46Z White_Flame: push people away?  silencer!  anti-freedom!  etc!  </freenode>
2021-05-28T00:02:00Z aeth: I went there earlier today when I remembered that it existed just to see its status but I didn't hang out there (or really understand the topic that much) because, well, I don't speak Polish
2021-05-28T00:02:57Z aeth: All the lurkers are finding out, though, is that I would support you as king, queen, emperor, empress, or any monarchical title of Poland that you choose.
2021-05-28T00:04:39Z aeth: hmm, actually, I guess the title is always "king" even for female monarchs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jadwiga_of_Poland
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2021-05-28T00:07:24Z p_l: I would like one day to find out how true the story of her going off with an axe at the guy telling her they canceled her engagement plans is
2021-05-28T00:07:52Z p_l: as in, she supposedly left the axe embedded in the door the fleeing noble closed behind himself
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2021-05-28T01:18:04Z epony: the proper word is Tzar
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2021-05-28T01:29:04Z aeth: tsar applies to Bulgaria and Russia, maybe several other slavic countries
2021-05-28T01:29:43Z aeth: probably always Orthodox, not just Slavic
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2021-05-28T01:34:23Z epony: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knyaz -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzar
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2021-05-28T02:49:25Z p_l: Tsar is a variation of Caesar
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2021-05-28T03:01:50Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-05-28T04:07:33Z ldbeth: good morning everyone
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2021-05-28T21:33:41Z MrtnDk[m]: Good night everyone.
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2021-05-29T16:59:02Z jcowan: p_l: All the various words for 'prince, king, emperor' in the Slavic languages are of Western origin
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2021-05-29T17:40:42Z MichaelRaskin: jcowan: I think one of the two principal translations of prince, knyaz, is not easily traceable to a borrowing (and traceable to pretty old Slavic)
2021-05-29T17:41:37Z jcowan: < *kuningaz > king, König, kenig, kong, etc.
2021-05-29T17:41:52Z jcowan: cf. Finnish kuningas
2021-05-29T17:42:01Z MichaelRaskin: Hm maybe
2021-05-29T17:43:08Z MichaelRaskin: It's true that there was some wiping out of those keeping the locally originated forms of organisation…
2021-05-29T17:43:17Z jcowan: then there are the Caesar-words and the Charlemagne-words
2021-05-29T17:43:50Z MichaelRaskin: Yep, that's for sure
2021-05-29T17:45:02Z jcowan: It's easiest to see in OCS kŭnęzĭ
2021-05-29T17:50:05Z jcowan: which is plainly what the Open Syllable Law does to something close to kuningaz.
2021-05-29T17:53:43Z MichaelRaskin: Well, not that plainly, as you lose one consonant cluster there
2021-05-29T17:54:05Z MichaelRaskin: But sure, within the range
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2021-05-29T17:56:50Z MichaelRaskin: Not sure you will get reaction from p_l here easier than in #lispcafe on libera.chat, though
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2021-05-29T18:03:12Z p_l: I'm slowly evacuating from all leenode channels
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2021-05-29T19:06:53Z White_Flame: instead of continuing off-topic discussion here (that isn't about the state of the channel), should probably take it to the new #lispcafe and let this expire
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2021-05-29T19:08:14Z White_Flame: personally, I think the topic should just be everything before the pipe
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2021-05-29T19:09:22Z White_Flame: oh, and libera#lisp now has more users than this channel
2021-05-29T19:11:08Z p_l: libera #lisp is former ##lisp, so we got for example scheme people there as well
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2021-05-29T19:14:24Z aeth: jcowan: are you the crown prince of Scheme, by the way?
2021-05-29T19:14:48Z jcowan: By no means.  I am the chief cook and bottle washer (CCBW).
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2021-05-30T04:37:47Z Aurora_v_kosmose: #lispcafe died.
2021-05-30T04:50:20Z X-Scale: Aurora_v_kosmose: try it on libera.chat
2021-05-30T04:51:00Z Aurora_v_kosmose: Mhm. I intend on joining it as soon as Tor works over there.
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2021-05-30T08:11:43Z xsperry: p_l, and what is libera's CL channel?
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2021-05-30T08:30:35Z MichaelRaskin: #commonlisp
2021-05-30T08:34:48Z White_Flame:  irc.libera.chat:6697 (TLS)
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2021-05-30T19:51:40Z p_l changed the topic of #lisp to: Moving to #commonlisp @ '(L i b e r a) | Welcome, traveller. Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!
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