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2021-04-01T00:12:56Z palter: That's really up to JCMa since he owns the Symbolics IP.
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2021-04-01T00:20:55Z caoliver: I know.  I can't imagine it's making much revenue for him though.
2021-04-01T00:21:56Z no-defun-allowed: What's the unit for lispm equivalency? I don't know the model numbers.
2021-04-01T00:23:44Z palter: The last Ivory hardware was the XL1200. I'm comparing against that.
2021-04-01T00:24:15Z caoliver: And your speed factor is a multiple of 1200?
2021-04-01T00:25:00Z no-defun-allowed: Right, thanks.
2021-04-01T00:26:04Z caoliver: Also modern boxes should have a hella more megawords.  I think my XL1201 had 8MW.
2021-04-01T00:26:37Z palter: The Ivory processor in the XL1200 ran at about 17MHz.
2021-04-01T00:27:27Z palter: We're still emulating a 32-bit processor. The default memory size in the emulator is 4095MW.
2021-04-01T00:27:45Z palter: (It's also the maximum)
2021-04-01T00:28:08Z palter: 1 Ivory word is 5 bytes (32 bits data, 8 bit tag)
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2021-04-01T00:29:11Z no-defun-allowed: How does that work out on some-power-of-two-bit machines?
2021-04-01T00:30:06Z palter: This is a freshly booted VLM on my Apple silicon Mac mini https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/iegttaDL/VLM.png
2021-04-01T00:30:56Z caoliver: Nifty.
2021-04-01T00:32:00Z caoliver: How do you have your keyboard mapped, or do you have an old 'bolix kbd interfaced to your mac?
2021-04-01T00:32:01Z palter: The emulator maps data to one area of memory and tags to another. So, if we were to somehow fill memory, it would be using 2^32 bytes for tags and 8^32. bytes for data.
2021-04-01T00:32:59Z palter: That would be 5GB
2021-04-01T00:33:00Z no-defun-allowed: Fair enough then.
2021-04-01T00:33:07Z caoliver: Splitting off the tags that way was probably the only sane thing to do.
2021-04-01T00:33:41Z palter: It is. The VLM world loads are actually store that way so we can mmap directly into memory.
2021-04-01T00:33:47Z caoliver: Eh?  4GB tags and 16GB data make 20GB I think.
2021-04-01T00:34:32Z palter: Right. It's 4GW * 5 bytes/word
2021-04-01T00:34:40Z no-defun-allowed: Is anything compiled to the register machine Genera runs on? Does that also split tags and data?
2021-04-01T00:35:03Z pjb: Unless you sort your data by tag.
2021-04-01T00:35:30Z pjb: For example, you can have only one tag per page.
2021-04-01T00:35:41Z caoliver: I suspect that has 40bit words directly.
2021-04-01T00:35:42Z palter: The stack cache is packed 1 Ivory word (tag+data) to one native word.
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2021-04-01T00:36:01Z caoliver: Much like the old DECs had 36 bit words.
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2021-04-01T00:36:20Z caoliver never used those.  Only PDP-11 series
2021-04-01T00:36:26Z palter: Ivory hardware actually has 48 bit words -- 32 bit data, 8 bit tag, 8 bit ECC
2021-04-01T00:36:45Z palter: Ah yes, the PDP-6 and PDP-10
2021-04-01T00:37:06Z palter: (Used to play Space War on the PDP-6 at the MIT AI Lab.)
2021-04-01T00:37:23Z caoliver: I did have some time on a heavily locked down VAX/VMS box in school, but that was no fun.
2021-04-01T00:37:44Z caoliver: I got off of that as soon as I could.
2021-04-01T00:37:50Z palter: And, for another 36 bit machine, there's Multics
2021-04-01T00:38:11Z palter: (GE 645, then Honeywell 6180 and DPS-8/M)
2021-04-01T00:38:18Z caoliver: Did you ever run across Tom Van Vleck?
2021-04-01T00:38:39Z palter: Worked with him at both MIT and Honeywell
2021-04-01T00:39:13Z palter: I spent about 10 years working on Multics split between MIT and Honeywell.
2021-04-01T00:39:21Z palter: Then 9 years at Symbolics until they shut down.
2021-04-01T00:39:22Z caoliver: Relative of his (Sally) lives near me, and her late husband and I started a small ISP back in the 90s.
2021-04-01T00:40:08Z caoliver: I'm not sure there's a good emu for Multics.
2021-04-01T00:40:28Z palter: Actually, there is one now.
2021-04-01T00:41:08Z caoliver: The only historical thing I have on my boxen is a Hercules instance running Michigan Terminal System.  I tossed that together to scare an old friend who went to UMich.
2021-04-01T00:41:14Z palter: See https://multicians.org/simulator.html
2021-04-01T00:41:48Z palter: Never used that
2021-04-01T00:42:00Z caoliver: Cool.  The more of these thing, the more we can corrupt the youth of Athens.  ;-P
2021-04-01T00:42:05Z caoliver: s/thing/things/
2021-04-01T00:42:09Z palter: (I've lived in Boston all my life. Started hacking in high school on an IBM 1130 in 1968)
2021-04-01T00:42:48Z palter: Guy Steele was one year behind me at school. I went to MIT and he went to Harvard.
2021-04-01T00:43:06Z caoliver: And now he lives in the belly of the beast.
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2021-04-01T00:49:02Z caoliver lives in Michigan, and really hasn't achieved escape velocity.
2021-04-01T00:52:35Z terpri: White_Flame, revivory is a great name. i called my cl-based ivory emulator mammoth :) but it can barely POST at the moment, not close to full functionality
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2021-04-01T00:54:17Z terpri: it's unfortunate that opengenera will presumably remain proprietary. some folks in #lispm were making good progress with CADR emulation (emulating newer versions than what was originally released), but the channel was locked without notice
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2021-04-01T01:02:24Z terpri: https://tumbleweed.nu/lm-3 <- CADR work (system 78 is usable and they're trying to get system 98 or 99 working; no idea how significant the differences between versions are though)
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2021-04-01T01:09:48Z White_Flame: terpri: one thing that I really like and got in early is the ability to call directly from CL into Ivory functions, but that's only sane when the emulation is paused
2021-04-01T01:10:07Z White_Flame: it would be nice to transition both ways, and get native CL stuff accessed from Genera as well
2021-04-01T01:11:53Z White_Flame: my net connection is being stupid right now so I hven't kept up with the conversation, but I tried the instructions from https://static.loomcom.com/genera/genera-install.html again, and was able to build VLM from source, which is really, really good for me to be able to continue now.  It hadn't worked in the past from source builds for me
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2021-04-01T01:23:56Z palter: That is, of course, the C emulator which is a transliteration of the Alpha native VLM source code to C. It has some interesting issues. (One I remember from a client's site is that either the calendar clock or microsecond clock runs about 3 times real speed. Don't remember which one. But, TCP timeouts were messed up by it.)
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2021-04-01T01:26:14Z palter: I would love to see Genera (and Open Genera and Portable Genera) released but JCMa hasn't answered my last email so I don't know why he won't.
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2021-04-01T01:27:02Z White_Flame: right, I'm not porting that VLM, I'm rewriting from first principles.  But it can give me an execution trace of what should be happening for reference, now that I can adjust its source and build
2021-04-01T01:27:15Z White_Flame: for a given test world
2021-04-01T01:28:03Z caoliver: JCMa is an interesting fellow to say the least.  The license surrounding his web server was ummm... interesting.
2021-04-01T01:28:52Z caoliver gets a dog in the manger feeling.
2021-04-01T01:29:44Z palter: White_Flame - If you want an instruction trace of booting a world, I still have one.
2021-04-01T01:29:51Z palter: (It's 3.3GB)
2021-04-01T01:30:06Z White_Flame: it has to be the exact same world as mine, so I'm going to make my own
2021-04-01T01:30:51Z White_Flame: no clue if the early boot stuff has changed much, though
2021-04-01T01:31:29Z palter: It's probably from a world named fixed7.vlod. (It's from July 2016)
2021-04-01T01:31:56Z White_Flame: but yeah, I want to verify how & where I diverge from VLM and blow up
2021-04-01T01:32:20Z palter: I know what you mean. That's how I debugged the Intel and ARM ports.
2021-04-01T01:32:25Z terpri: fun factoid: according to my reading of the standard license header, as of 2018, the US federal government could unilaterally relicense most of the genera source code if they wanted, presumably due to the level of public funding
2021-04-01T01:32:33Z White_Flame: I'm now using a Genera-8-5-xlib-patched.vlod
2021-04-01T01:32:53Z palter: What's the date on the world load?
2021-04-01T01:33:27Z White_Flame: where would I find that?
2021-04-01T01:33:32Z terpri: hard to say whether that's more or less likely than the copyright owner (john c. mallery?) relicensing it though
2021-04-01T01:33:47Z palter: Of course, once sequence breaks start, the trace will diverge.
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2021-04-01T01:35:04Z caoliver: terpri was this via darpa?
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2021-04-01T01:39:52Z palter: This is the clause from the copyright notice that terpri was referencing. https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/TXUEulOs/
2021-04-01T01:41:06Z terpri: caoliver, not sure if it's DARPA per se, but the clause refers to the National Reconnonaissance Office
2021-04-01T01:41:12Z caoliver: I just wondered about how the public funding came about.  I was always a little miffed that RSA wasn't broadly available for public use given that taxpayers (via the Navy) funding the development.
2021-04-01T01:41:19Z terpri: Reconnaissance*
2021-04-01T01:41:46Z terpri: and https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/48/252.227-7014#b_2 is the relevant law, i believe
2021-04-01T01:41:47Z caoliver got a copy of TM-82 when he was in high school.
2021-04-01T01:42:31Z caoliver: Not that I was any sort of genius (I'm most certainly not), but the Martin Gardner article piqued my interest.
2021-04-01T01:43:24Z terpri: "Government purpose rights shall remain in effect for a period of five years unless a different period has been negotiated." symbolics apparently negotiated something like a *thirty year* restriction :p
2021-04-01T01:44:09Z caoliver: Evidently prior to 1991.
2021-04-01T01:44:12Z palter: This one is a bit more up-to-date I think. (Note the expiration date) https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/6pYRUnLn/
2021-04-01T01:44:58Z caoliver: 2018 was a while ago unless I got dropped in the time machine yet again.
2021-04-01T01:47:43Z caoliver: I think the key language is "No restrictions apply after the expiration date shown above."
2021-04-01T01:47:49Z caoliver: But IANAL.
2021-04-01T01:48:37Z caoliver: That would also depend on the government having worlds absent of classified information.
2021-04-01T01:49:33Z caoliver really needs to attend to his pasta.  BBL.
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2021-04-01T01:52:21Z terpri: right, and "the Government shall have unlimited rights" after expiration. but whether they want to exercise those rights is a separate question
2021-04-01T01:52:29Z terpri: (IANAL either)
2021-04-01T01:54:15Z caoliver: Maybe I should have gone to law school rather than playing with math and computers.
2021-04-01T01:55:16Z caoliver: Probably not.  I'm a very not people/politics sort of person.
2021-04-01T01:55:19Z terpri: hm, seems that you can only view relatively recent spending on usaspending.gov. but the army paid symbolics almost $600k between 2006 and 2011 (for onsite hardware and software support) so someone was still using it
2021-04-01T01:56:18Z terpri: (support + an opengenera license)
2021-04-01T01:56:19Z caoliver: It wouldn't surprise me.  However I'd have assumed that they'd budge a port.
2021-04-01T01:56:31Z caoliver: s/budge/budget/
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2021-04-01T01:57:08Z caoliver: Say Allegro (is that still a thing?) on a modern fast box.
2021-04-01T01:58:08Z caoliver: It'd be a hell of a lot cheaper than what was squandered on F-22 and F-35.
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2021-04-01T01:59:50Z caoliver: Being a cheap ass, I'd do anything (assuming a ramen budget) with CCL or SBCL.
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2021-04-01T02:03:24Z palter: Those dates are post Symbolics so the Army would've been contracting through David Schmidt. I know that around 2015, there was a DoD dictum to get off non-standard systems. It's why Dave contracted with me (through Clozure) to do the Intel port.
2021-04-01T02:04:41Z palter: There were a couple of clients left then as I recall. One used Genera just for development and deployed on Allegro, I think. The other ran their application as a service.
2021-04-01T02:04:58Z palter: Don't remember which one was doing work for the Army. (Might have been both)
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2021-04-01T02:05:32Z palter: There's still a client who uses Genera for development and deploys on Allegro for a commercail product.
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2021-04-01T02:16:38Z terpri: i always wondered what those contracts were about. mystery solved :)
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2021-04-01T02:17:40Z ldbeth: how's the behavior of INTERN related to READTABLE-CASE?
2021-04-01T02:19:00Z no-defun-allowed: From memory, they are not at all.
2021-04-01T02:19:32Z no-defun-allowed: For all strings S, (string= (symbol-name (intern S)) S)
2021-04-01T02:19:55Z ldbeth: clhs 22.1.3.3.2.1
2021-04-01T02:19:55Z specbot: Examples of Effect of Readtable Case on the Lisp Printer: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_accba.htm
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2021-04-01T02:20:46Z ldbeth: figured that's probably caused by the printer
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2021-04-01T02:21:41Z no-defun-allowed: clhs intern
2021-04-01T02:21:42Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_intern.htm
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2021-04-01T02:31:35Z caoliver: That DoD dictum isn't surprising:  What is surprising is that it wasn't issued sooner.
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2021-04-01T03:00:22Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-04-01T04:54:14Z jcowan: Maiko, the Interlisp VM, also runs on both Mac and Linux (and Solaris and of course Linux for Windows)
2021-04-01T04:54:46Z jcowan: As for Elisps, it's true that Guile and Kawa don't provide the editor-specific data structures, but they do provide the Elisp language as such.
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2021-04-01T06:40:34Z ldbeth: jcowan: wait, interlisp vm?
2021-04-01T06:40:45Z ldbeth: where can I find that then?
2021-04-01T06:40:58Z moon-child: ldbeth: https://github.com/Interlisp/maiko/
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2021-04-01T11:03:54Z jmercouris: phoe: how can I show restarts to users in Nyxt?
2021-04-01T11:04:25Z jmercouris: Is there a portable way to do this?
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2021-04-01T11:04:45Z phoe: jmercouris: what do you mean, show?
2021-04-01T11:04:45Z no-defun-allowed: clhs compute-restarts
2021-04-01T11:04:45Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_comp_1.htm
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2021-04-01T11:05:14Z no-defun-allowed: The example provides a text interface-based example for what you want.
2021-04-01T11:05:16Z phoe: like do what the debugger does, show a series of like [FOO] Perform a FOO operation."
2021-04-01T11:05:21Z phoe: sort of thing?
2021-04-01T11:06:00Z jmercouris: phoe: yes, exactly
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2021-04-01T11:07:04Z phoe: because then what no-defun-allowed said - get a list of restarts available in the current dynenv this way via COMPUTE-RESTARTS, get restart names via RESTART-NAME, get restart reports via princ-to-stringing the restart objects, call them via INVOKE-RESTART-INTERACTIVELY after binding *query-io* in a proper way
2021-04-01T11:07:25Z jmercouris: Hm
2021-04-01T11:07:32Z phoe: ;; or y'know you can read my book instead
2021-04-01T11:07:40Z jmercouris: Double hm
2021-04-01T11:07:44Z phoe: you could take a look at the debugger of portable-condition-system as well
2021-04-01T11:07:55Z phoe: because this directly operates with restarts and displays them to the user
2021-04-01T11:08:06Z jmercouris: I see
2021-04-01T11:08:09Z phoe: s/with/on/
2021-04-01T11:08:22Z phoe: https://github.com/phoe/portable-condition-system/blob/master/src/debugger.lisp
2021-04-01T11:08:47Z phoe: in particular DEFINE-COMMAND :RESTARTS and below
2021-04-01T11:08:48Z jmercouris: I see very useful
2021-04-01T11:08:51Z jmercouris: Thank you
2021-04-01T11:09:12Z phoe: no problem
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2021-04-01T11:23:28Z ldbeth: good evening
2021-04-01T11:23:37Z phoe: hello
2021-04-01T11:24:33Z phoe: jmercouris: basically this sounds like you want to write your own Lisp debugger, which kind of makes sense because nyxt aims to be a Lisp environment
2021-04-01T11:24:40Z ldbeth: someone asked me if it is a good idea to modify *print-case* for readability
2021-04-01T11:25:05Z phoe: dynamically, or globally?
2021-04-01T11:25:51Z ldbeth: globally, he encountered the problem that setting *print-case* would cause trouble for cl-base64's macro
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2021-04-01T11:26:36Z ldbeth: which uses (intern (format nil "~A" ... something
2021-04-01T11:26:43Z phoe: oh, yes
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2021-04-01T11:27:14Z phoe: ;; I think that at least one of my own libraries is going to fall apart the same way if print-case is modified
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2021-04-01T11:27:34Z phoe: ;; I need to verify this someday
2021-04-01T11:27:40Z jmercouris: phoe: yes, we are going that direction
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2021-04-01T11:28:48Z phoe: I actually cannot see INTERN over FORMAT NIL in there
2021-04-01T11:29:02Z ldbeth: personally I feel IT IS NOT A BIG PROBLEAM READING UPPERCASED INDENTIFIERS.
2021-04-01T11:29:32Z phoe: what's the exact error you are getting? cl-base64 seems actually immune to this sorta error
2021-04-01T11:30:59Z ldbeth: he added (setf *print-case* :downcase) in his .sbclrc and using cl-base64-20201016-git
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2021-04-01T11:32:46Z ldbeth: and it's acually loading another package complains "The function cl-base64:base64-string-to-usb8-array is undefined."
2021-04-01T11:34:31Z phoe: show me that another package
2021-04-01T11:35:00Z phoe: because cl-base64 seems to define symbols with upcased names, like, always
2021-04-01T11:39:10Z ldbeth: phoe: "crypto-shortcuts", in package nice-school
2021-04-01T11:40:25Z ldbeth: might need to empty fasl files first
2021-04-01T11:43:13Z ldbeth: probably nice-school is the package he's developing
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2021-04-01T12:50:58Z beach: Bike: How is work on Cleavir going?
2021-04-01T12:51:33Z Bike: think i'm going to have to work on trucler like i mentioned before i get much farther with it.
2021-04-01T12:51:55Z beach: That makes sense.
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2021-04-01T12:57:26Z jmercouris: ferada: how do I add Gboxed types to cl-cffi-gtk?
2021-04-01T12:57:31Z jmercouris: such that get-g-boxed-foreign-info-for-gtype functions properly?
2021-04-01T12:57:52Z jmercouris: Ive tried to use the DEFINE-G-BOXED-* macros to no avail
2021-04-01T12:58:00Z jmercouris: perhaps I am not using them properly
2021-04-01T12:58:09Z jmercouris: http://dpaste.com/64J5BUCMJ
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2021-04-01T13:05:09Z jmercouris: looking at the documentation here: https://webkitgtk.org/reference/webkit2gtk/stable/WebKitNavigationAction.html I cannot for the life of me figure out what the struct fields are
2021-04-01T13:05:45Z jmercouris: which makes me think that it should be defined via define-g-boxed-opaque
2021-04-01T13:05:53Z jmercouris: however, how to use this is incredibly unclear
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2021-04-01T13:10:41Z ferada: jmercouris: hi, ...boxed-opaque looks correct to me like you said and how to use it, just look at the existing cases, like gtk-widget-path for example, function parameters use (object (g-boxed-foreign gtk-widget-path)) e.g.
2021-04-01T13:13:02Z jmercouris: ferada: I see, thanks
2021-04-01T13:13:47Z jmercouris: you mean (g-boxed-foreign gtk-widget-path) for specializing my defcfun
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2021-04-01T13:13:53Z jmercouris: why could i not just treat it as a pointer?
2021-04-01T13:14:08Z jmercouris: what is the point of wrapping in g-boxed when it is opaque?
2021-04-01T13:14:35Z ferada: you can pass raw pointers around, then you just have no idea what's in it
2021-04-01T13:14:48Z jmercouris: ferada: that's usually what I am doing
2021-04-01T13:14:52Z jmercouris: here is where the problem comes in
2021-04-01T13:15:07Z jmercouris: when you use g-signal-connect it tries to do some magic and convert the results into appropriate objects
2021-04-01T13:15:21Z jmercouris: let me show you what I mean
2021-04-01T13:16:45Z jmercouris: ferada: http://dpaste.com/77CSNHPE8
2021-04-01T13:17:46Z ferada: jmercouris: and what's the problem?
2021-04-01T13:17:53Z jmercouris: the problem is that "t" is passed somewhere
2021-04-01T13:17:59Z jmercouris: the result of my lambda
2021-04-01T13:18:02Z jmercouris: and cl-cffi-gtk loses its mind
2021-04-01T13:18:04Z jmercouris: let me show you a trace
2021-04-01T13:19:17Z jmercouris: http://dpaste.com/6R72G9TG2
2021-04-01T13:19:28Z jmercouris: ferada: ^
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2021-04-01T13:22:34Z ferada: jmercouris: that's this signal https://webkitgtk.org/reference/webkit2gtk/2.4.2/WebKitWebView.html#WebKitWebView-create  ?
2021-04-01T13:22:46Z ferada: T isn't a valid return value anyway
2021-04-01T13:22:48Z jmercouris: ferada: correct
2021-04-01T13:22:56Z jmercouris: it isn't, that's true
2021-04-01T13:23:05Z ferada: so, return NIL or a widget
2021-04-01T13:23:14Z jmercouris: a good point, maybe NIL will help it survive
2021-04-01T13:23:26Z ferada: i can't find an example with return value gboolean right now, might be that it's not supported
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2021-04-01T13:24:50Z jmercouris: wow, that worked
2021-04-01T13:24:56Z jmercouris: I would have /never/ thought
2021-04-01T13:25:09Z jmercouris: many of my assumptions have been now broken
2021-04-01T13:25:37Z jmercouris: strange, because I thought in other signal handlers I was returning incorrect values and it was handling it gracefully
2021-04-01T13:25:46Z jmercouris: maybe I was never doing that, and just imagined I was
2021-04-01T13:26:05Z jmercouris: thanks ferada
2021-04-01T13:26:39Z ferada: maybe, maybe not, it's a bit hard to search for this case since the return type isn't indicated in the lambdas unfortunately
2021-04-01T13:26:46Z ferada: not the greatest design i guess
2021-04-01T13:27:11Z ferada: np
2021-04-01T13:27:34Z ferada: let me know if you encounter other issues, i've seen the tickets, i just can't easily reproduce things at the moment
2021-04-01T13:27:43Z jmercouris: no problem, will do
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2021-04-01T14:05:47Z Josh_2: Afternoon
2021-04-01T14:06:33Z beach: Hello Josh_2.
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2021-04-01T17:02:01Z rodriga: hmm is there a more active Lisp group?  also has anybody here bet their career on Lisp/Clojure/functional?  What projects and information would you guys recommend if you want to one day be a professional hacker building "compilers" and eDSLs.
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2021-04-01T17:08:27Z Shinmera: I am betting my career on Lisp right this second.
2021-04-01T17:08:34Z Shinmera: and also previous seconds
2021-04-01T17:13:18Z Xach: rodriga: there is a discord lisp discussion channel that seems active, i don't know if it's more or less active than #lisp
2021-04-01T17:13:48Z Xach: rodriga: i think a number of people here write common lisp code as a career
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2021-04-01T17:17:16Z rodriga: sorry if this sounds like a dumb question but how would you get a job or internship in Lisp?  seems here locally its not very popular.  did you guys network by first getting remote open source projects, internships, etc...?  i've read On Lisp & SCIP.
2021-04-01T17:17:47Z Shinmera: I am self-employed, so the hiring process was very easy :)
2021-04-01T17:19:00Z Xach: rodriga: i liked using lisp but it was not formally part of my programming job in the past. i used common lisp to prototype things quickly and to implement internal tools where the implementation language wasn't all that critical. i also wrote a lot of code and shared it as i made my own hobby projects in common lisp. i went to conferences and chatted and emailed with people using lisp. over time i got into
2021-04-01T17:19:05Z Xach: some jobs where lisp was the main thing.
2021-04-01T17:22:23Z Xach: I don't have advice for someone starting today, sorry - the world has changed a lot since i got started. I don't know if the same approach would work starting now.
2021-04-01T17:22:48Z gabc: Conferences for one is a big more awkward today :P
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2021-04-01T17:23:33Z rodriga: are there remote conferences with a good amount of socializing?  Hmm, I've made lots of projects but I never bothered to blog about them.  Hmm I remember that in a few lines of code if you turned clojure code from parens into <span> and <div> you could then style clojure code to look however you wanted without changing the underlying s-exprs.
2021-04-01T17:23:36Z Xach: When I was getting into learning Common Lisp, there were multiple annual international conferences, and many regional enthusiast meetings. It's really dropped off a lot since then.
2021-04-01T17:24:42Z alandipert: otoh, programmers have never been in higher demand, and information has never been as accessible
2021-04-01T17:26:06Z Shinmera: ELS is coming up soon though
2021-04-01T17:26:11Z rodriga: yeah, but it seems that a lot of the in demand jobs are for technology that won't last long
2021-04-01T17:27:59Z rodriga: ELS?
2021-04-01T17:28:36Z Shinmera: https://www.european-lisp-symposium.org
2021-04-01T17:30:36Z rodriga: after reading SCIP and On Lisp and thinking about weird things like modifying Eval or Macros, I'm think Lisp is the most powerful language, and its the easiest to change your program from doing one thing to another.
2021-04-01T17:31:34Z Xach: rodriga: keep reading, there's a lot more interesting stuff.
2021-04-01T17:31:45Z Shinmera: Power is a silly concept, but I'm glad you're enjoying your time.
2021-04-01T17:31:54Z Xach: Paradigms of AI Programming is an interesting lisp that will teach you some nice Common Lisp stuff
2021-04-01T17:32:26Z rodriga: i did skim that book already haha
2021-04-01T17:34:30Z rodriga: trying to think how can I network myself into an internship or entry-level lisp job?
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2021-04-01T17:35:09Z Shinmera: Contribute to open source, get your name out there.
2021-04-01T17:35:31Z Shinmera: Submit papers to ELS, help folks out in IRC here.
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2021-04-01T17:36:51Z Shinmera: Wouldn't expect anything for years though unless you get super lucky or start a company yourself.
2021-04-01T17:37:45Z pjb: rodriga: send your resume to lisp companies. eg. https://www.ravenpack.com/careers/
2021-04-01T17:39:29Z Josh_2: Xach: in vecto is there a way to compose colours or calculate the colours of overlaps?
2021-04-01T17:39:42Z rodriga: well do you guys have any interesting projects i can help with?  There was this LightTable like plugin for emacs, and I was thinking if anybody finds those kind of environments productive (compared to Slime).
2021-04-01T17:41:19Z pjb: rodriga: take any CL project in gitlab or github and check the issues.  Alternatively http://www.metamodular.net/Common-Lisp/suggested-projects.html
2021-04-01T17:41:55Z pjb: rodriga: you can also start from the systems in quicklisp, some need maintenance or documentation.
2021-04-01T17:42:12Z Shinmera: rodriga: Sure. I have a game engine https://github.com/shirakumo/trial and a UI toolkit project https://github.com/shirakumo/alloy that could use a lot of work.
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2021-04-01T17:44:06Z rodriga: oh yeah i clicked that link and it says something about a library for writing GUIs, I was thinking what if you could take all your Lisp code functions and it could take the code and automatically create a (bad) GUI for scaffolding
2021-04-01T17:46:34Z rodriga: wait someone probably has already thought of that, rails creates scaffolds from your model, maybe they got the idea form somewhere else
2021-04-01T17:51:08Z rodriga: Shinmera: I wouldn't know where to start to learn your engine, hmm
2021-04-01T17:51:25Z Shinmera: Well, a tutorial is one of the things we're currently lacking :)
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2021-04-01T17:51:55Z Shinmera: The other devs and I hang out in #shirakumo on Freenode here to discuss the development of it and questions surrounding it, if you want to lurk.
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2021-04-01T17:55:50Z rodriga: Shinmera: sou ieba nihonjin desuka?  mae ni nihongo nourroku shiken N2 ni gougaku shitandesukedo...
2021-04-01T17:58:31Z Shinmera: 日本人じゃないですけどちょっと話します。名前は偶然ですよ。
2021-04-01T17:58:39Z Shinmera: Anyway, let's keep it to English here.
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2021-04-01T18:01:57Z Josh_2: Today I learned why its important to use (defvar ..) over defparameter
2021-04-01T18:02:19Z Josh_2: When I deleted some stored data for over 50 users
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2021-04-01T18:02:32Z Josh_2: luckily I had it backed up
2021-04-01T18:03:19Z Josh_2: Well tbf if I hadn't made the variable an empty hash table then it would have overwritten by backup as well
2021-04-01T18:05:44Z rodriga: oh yeah in python, I once had a bug when a long class that redefined a method
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2021-04-01T18:09:48Z Josh_2: I love being saved by an (unless
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2021-04-01T18:10:26Z edgar-rft: famous last words: (unless ...
2021-04-01T18:12:29Z semz: Is there a nice way to set *print-length* only for the representations in Slime? I don't want to set it globally but am rather sick of slowing Emacs down to a crawl whenever a returned list is large.
2021-04-01T18:12:41Z rodriga: oh yeah is Emacs sorf of like a Lisp OS like Smalltalk's Pharo?  How hard is it to build a compatibility layer that can convet Emacls Lisp code to Common Lisp and Common Lisp code to Emacs Lisp?
2021-04-01T18:13:35Z jackdaniel: elisp has a package "imitating" common lisp
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2021-04-01T18:16:21Z pjb: semz: yes. In swank.
2021-04-01T18:16:57Z pjb: semz: https://github.com/informatimago/rc/blob/master/swank.lisp
2021-04-01T18:17:43Z pjb: semz: this is my ~/.swank.lisp rc file.
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2021-04-01T18:18:27Z pjb: rodriga: there's an emacs-cl CL implementation targetting emacs lisp that has bit-rotten since GNU emacs  has lexical bindings.  You could update it.
2021-04-01T18:18:41Z pjb: rodriga: https://github.com/larsbrinkhoff/emacs-cl
2021-04-01T18:18:48Z pjb: fork, patch, send PR.
2021-04-01T18:19:56Z semz: pjb: neat!
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2021-04-01T19:00:52Z rodriga: does lisp have something like haskell's papers?  its a good way to learn new new cutting edge programming techniques.
2021-04-01T19:01:25Z Josh_2: cutting edge? seems to me the "cutting edge" is just recycled Lisp techniques
2021-04-01T19:01:32Z Josh_2: seems to be my impression
2021-04-01T19:03:45Z rodriga: where are these Lisp techniques written?
2021-04-01T19:03:55Z Josh_2: In the source code folks write
2021-04-01T19:05:08Z rodriga: but isn't Lisp source like an embedded DSL?  trying to reverse engineer a DSL can be hard?
2021-04-01T19:05:19Z Josh_2: No
2021-04-01T19:05:37Z Josh_2: maybe in racket
2021-04-01T19:05:38Z rodriga: whats the best written lisp code in your opinion?
2021-04-01T19:05:56Z Josh_2: Gosh I don't know, maybe you should read PAIP
2021-04-01T19:06:24Z Josh_2: Or practical common lisp
2021-04-01T19:07:14Z Bike: most lisp source is not an embedded DSL, it's just code
2021-04-01T19:07:23Z Bike: most of the macros people define are pretty simple and easy to understand
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2021-04-01T19:07:49Z Bike: things like LOOP that are there own language do exist, but they're not the majority of any program
2021-04-01T19:07:52Z Bike: their own*
2021-04-01T19:10:05Z rodriga: i see.
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2021-04-01T20:13:06Z White_Flame: rodriga: usually, the macro-based customization of CL is focused around creating the proper abstractions for your codebase, which just gives a few enhancements and interacts well with CL in a very readable way, not it's own completely separate languages
2021-04-01T20:14:26Z White_Flame: ...swing and a miss
2021-04-01T20:17:20Z Josh_2: Does anyone know what stream log4cl uses?
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2021-04-01T20:27:12Z jackdaniel: what do you mean?
2021-04-01T20:27:47Z jackdaniel: clearly since there are multiple appenders it uses multiple streams
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2021-04-01T20:31:56Z Josh_2: Yes, basically the old functionality just locally bound *standard-output* so that I could grab the output and send it over a socket, but then I swapped my logging system to log4cl and this obviously broke
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2021-04-01T20:36:23Z mfiano: This isn't an answer, but perhaps try verbose.
2021-04-01T20:36:30Z mfiano: (I Like it better)
2021-04-01T20:38:55Z jackdaniel: you will need to check that in the source code, but if I remember correctly the appender protocol consists of a single method
2021-04-01T20:39:18Z jackdaniel: so it is enough to implement it for your stream and add the appender
2021-04-01T20:39:42Z jackdaniel: then (log:/message-function/ ,@message) will use it
2021-04-01T20:40:28Z jackdaniel: that said, from what you have said you expect it to intercept messages to the standard output - that's not how log4cl works
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2021-04-01T20:52:23Z Josh_2: Verbose is a logging tool mfiano?
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2021-04-01T20:52:49Z mfiano: Yes
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2021-04-01T21:41:22Z Xach: stylewarning: is there a new magicl release coming?
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2021-04-01T21:41:47Z phoe: Xach: did the last change to magicl not fix the build?
2021-04-01T21:42:07Z phoe: asking because I was kind of involved in it
2021-04-01T21:42:08Z Xach: phoe: I don't think it was tagged as a release on github. at least as of early this morning.
2021-04-01T21:42:12Z phoe: oh! yes, I see
2021-04-01T21:42:19Z Xach: that is the version i use for magicl
2021-04-01T21:42:51Z Xach: Josh_2: the color composition is not exposed directly.
2021-04-01T21:43:02Z Xach: Josh_2: the math is there for perusal in the code if you like, though.
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2021-04-01T21:52:19Z Xach: Josh_2: what did you have in mind?
2021-04-01T22:03:23Z jcowan: Is Trucler intended to be called from user-defined macros?
2021-04-01T22:03:55Z Bike: i think so, since the first example does so
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2021-04-01T22:05:47Z jcowan: I confess to not looking at examples when I read specs (they are often misleading or outright wrong in my experience)
2021-04-01T22:06:26Z Bike: well that's all i got. what it's actually been developed for so far is using it in compilers, tho.
2021-04-01T22:06:50Z jcowan: There are a few problematic specs where the examples are normative either de facto or de jure
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2021-04-01T22:18:13Z stylewarning: Xach yes we can re-release
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2021-04-01T23:02:34Z cipherchess: topic
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2021-04-01T23:08:21Z Xach: stylewarning: mycket bra
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2021-04-01T23:23:11Z jasom: Is there a library that makes a non-seekable stream (somewhat) seekable by adding buffering on top?  I'm thinking something that guarantees always allowing seeking back N elements (up to the beginning, where N >> 1 and is possibly configurable)
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2021-04-01T23:28:16Z mfiano: A Gray stream wrapper for that would be only a couple lines of code not even worth a library
2021-04-01T23:31:16Z Xach: MORE LIBRARIES
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2021-04-02T03:07:58Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-04-02T03:30:55Z jasom: mfiano: it's not the number of lines of code, it's how long it takes to write the lines of code.  I've written something similar before and I had some subtle bugs with my first implementation.
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2021-04-02T08:53:20Z moon-child: are there guidelines about when to use rplaca/rplacd vs (setf (car/cdr))?
2021-04-02T08:54:14Z beach: Yes, never use the former.
2021-04-02T08:54:39Z moon-child: why?
2021-04-02T08:55:57Z flip214: convention, I guess - and because SETF is much more familiar
2021-04-02T08:56:03Z beach: They have no advantage, and they don't return the object being stored.
2021-04-02T08:56:57Z beach: RPLACA and RPLACD should be considered low-level functions to be used mainly by the person creating the Common Lisp system, just like SETQ.
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2021-04-02T08:58:57Z beach: ... and SYMBOL-FUNCTION, and (SETF SYMBOL-FUNCTION) too.
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2021-04-02T10:24:48Z seok: How do I load up projects in home directory in slime ?
2021-04-02T10:24:56Z phoe: seok: make sure ASDF is aware of them
2021-04-02T10:25:10Z phoe: and then asdf:load-system or ql:quickload them
2021-04-02T10:25:12Z seok: it worked before, it stopped working
2021-04-02T10:25:25Z seok: make sure ASDF is aware of them < how do I do this ?
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2021-04-02T10:26:06Z phoe: ensure that a pathname to your project folder is present in asdf:*central-registry*
2021-04-02T10:27:02Z seok: asdf:*central-registry* only has ~/.quicklisp/quicklisp/
2021-04-02T10:27:05Z seok: is this normal?
2021-04-02T10:28:38Z splittist: seok: have you read https://www.common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html#Configuring-ASDF ?
2021-04-02T10:28:48Z seok: nope
2021-04-02T10:29:17Z seok: adding #P"/home/user/" doesn't seem to help
2021-04-02T10:29:37Z seok: It was working fine before, but it stopped working for unknown reason
2021-04-02T10:30:02Z seok: the link is dead by the way, I'll search it up
2021-04-02T10:32:07Z phoe: the link works for me
2021-04-02T10:33:04Z seok: nope not for me
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2021-04-02T10:37:44Z seok: i moved my project to ~/.quicklisp/local-projects/ and it works
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2021-04-02T10:49:25Z MetaYan: phoe: seok: common-lisp.net is unreachable for me as well.
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2021-04-02T11:07:02Z pjb: moon-child: rplaca is a function; (setf car) is a function too.  (let ((cs (list (cons nil nil) (cons nil nil))))  (values (mapc #'rplaca  cs '(1 2)) (mapc #'(setf cdr)  '(44 55) cs))) #| --> ((1 . 44) (2 . 55)) ; (44 55) |#  your choice.
2021-04-02T11:08:07Z no-defun-allowed: Nope, Clozure does not implement (setf cdr) as a function, and that is allowed somewhere in the standard.
2021-04-02T11:09:37Z no-defun-allowed: (setf getf) would most likely not be a function, for example, as it might push a new property into the place without modifying list structure.
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2021-04-02T11:11:05Z pjb: moon-child: however, it looks like (function (setf car)) is not conforming: implementations could have no such function, and just hack setf, like for defstruct accessors.
2021-04-02T11:11:39Z leo_song_: https://common-lisp.net/ is dead?
2021-04-02T11:12:03Z phoe: DHCP issues
2021-04-02T11:12:04Z no-defun-allowed: pjb: Say something once, why say it again?
2021-04-02T11:12:11Z pjb: moon-child: https://termbin.com/27m4  ; so you can see that you have to use rplaca when you need a function.
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2021-04-02T11:14:51Z leo_song_: :-(
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2021-04-02T16:28:26Z MrtnDk[m]: rpg: Which Travis pulled the plug on Cl on GitHub?
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2021-04-02T16:40:53Z MrtnDk[m]: minion: memo for jcowan: I wonder what "idiotic mysticism" is then. Can thou please elaborate on that phrase, please, thank you.
2021-04-02T16:40:54Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell jcowan when he/she/it next speaks.
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2021-04-02T16:43:27Z beach: Where did you see that phrase?  A search did not find it.
2021-04-02T16:43:35Z beach: Maybe in some other channel?
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2021-04-02T17:05:33Z mfiano: It was a couple days ago in ##Lisp. jcowan was unhappy with the Lisp community.
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2021-04-02T17:54:01Z luis: Shinmera: CFFI v0.24.0 is out! https://github.com/cffi/cffi/wiki/NEWS#version-0240
2021-04-02T17:54:20Z Shinmera: \o/
2021-04-02T17:54:32Z luis: successfully avoiding 1.0.0 since 2006
2021-04-02T17:55:31Z alandipert: haha, yay, congrats luis
2021-04-02T17:55:47Z Shinmera: Finally I can get rid of the defctype size_ts in all my libs
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2021-04-02T18:53:35Z fe[nl]ix: luis: very nice :)
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2021-04-02T18:54:06Z jackdaniel: luis: congrats!
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2021-04-02T19:03:16Z thomasb06: Hello. Currently, I'm trying to install Ulubis, and I get this backtrace: https://x0.at/URP.log
2021-04-02T19:03:29Z thomasb06: Any idea what went wrong?
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2021-04-02T19:14:15Z Bike: i'm not familiar with ulubis, but it's hard to imagine that log helping. did it really not even give you an error code?
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2021-04-02T19:19:54Z thomasb06: apologies, doing several things at the same time
2021-04-02T19:20:20Z Bike: no need to apologize
2021-04-02T19:20:23Z thomasb06: where can I get an error code, when running ./ulubis?
2021-04-02T19:21:24Z thomasb06: it's a window manager so I should run it from console mode, but the only trace I get is in this file
2021-04-02T19:22:12Z Bike: https://github.com/malcolmstill/ulubis/blob/master/ulubis.lisp#L139-L141 looks like you're supposed to be getting a backtrace, but evidently not
2021-04-02T19:23:16Z Bike: print-backtrace prints to *debug-io* whereas that format will print to *standard-output*. maybe the log is only getting the standard output.
2021-04-02T19:24:23Z Bike: i guess you could try replacing the print-backtrace call with (let ((*debug-io* (make-two-way-stream *standard-input* *standard-output*))) (trivial-backtrace:print-backtrace e)), and then it will print the backtrace to standard output as well.
2021-04-02T19:24:49Z Bike: oh, or more simply (trivial-backtrace:print-backtrace e :output *standard-output*)
2021-04-02T19:25:12Z Bike: probably pass :verbose t as well
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2021-04-02T19:28:24Z thomasb06: ah, let me have a look. (it doesn't show but I'm on a sugar crash... had a huge patisserie few hours ago and obviously it was more sugary that what I'm used too)
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2021-04-02T19:34:29Z thomasb06: so I've put `(trivial-backtrace:print-backtrace e :output *standard-output* :verbose t)` and now I recompile
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2021-04-02T19:38:57Z thomasb06: now the output is: https://x0.at/h9F.log
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2021-04-02T19:42:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: luis: one thing that would be really useful on macOS is support for the @executable_path, @loader_path and @rpath variables, although I think this would also need implementation-level changes
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2021-04-02T19:54:15Z thomasb06: Bike does the new backtrace ring a bell?
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2021-04-02T20:06:59Z Bike: "not a typewriter". well, okay.
2021-04-02T20:09:19Z Bike: https://github.com/malcolmstill/ulubis/issues/62 well, someone else has the same problem.
2021-04-02T20:11:38Z Bike: https://github.com/malcolmstill/ulubis-drm-gbm/blob/master/ulubis-drm-gbm.lisp#L35-L39 i suppose it's one of these ioctl calls.
2021-04-02T20:12:05Z Bike: i have very little idea about graphics programming, let alone ulubis, so that's as far as i go
2021-04-02T20:13:12Z jcowan: I see I have been massively misinterpreted by several different people, and I hate that (Geek Answer Syndrome)
2021-04-02T20:13:48Z phoe: luis: congrats
2021-04-02T20:15:31Z Bike: you should report this logging bug along with your actual problem, btw
2021-04-02T20:18:41Z jcowan: So: I'm not annoyed with the Lisp community and never have been.  What is more, someone else applied the phrase "idiotic mysticism" to Zen, not to Lisp, and I denied that Zen was in any way mystical.  What I did do was compare certain Lispers (unnamed) to irascible Zen masters: they know a lot, but they have no patience with those who don't.
2021-04-02T20:19:47Z mason: jcowan: That was a random comment the other day. How is that still in anyone's mind?
2021-04-02T20:20:36Z jcowan: It only now came to my attention.  "Need brooks no delay, yet late is better than never."
2021-04-02T20:21:04Z mason: kk
2021-04-02T20:21:05Z mfiano: I have been trying to decide if I should be offended by "some very useful help tends to be available only from rather grumpy people"
2021-04-02T20:23:19Z jcowan: "An insult is like a drink: it affects one only if it is accepted."  If you don't think you meet that description, then I see no reason to be offended.  I certainly did not have you in mind.
2021-04-02T20:24:30Z mfiano: I was thinking all the Lispers that I respect, moreso than myself.
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2021-04-02T20:33:41Z thomasb06: Bike cheers
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2021-04-02T20:34:49Z thomasb06: Bike on the Gitter channel, I posted both backtraces, maybe I'll get a few hint
2021-04-02T20:35:20Z thomasb06: as I don't know any of Lisp, I won't go that far at all... Thank you for your help
2021-04-02T20:36:00Z thomasb06: My graphics card is an Nvidia so maybe it's related
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2021-04-02T21:02:42Z Josh_2: Xach: I have a lot of overlapping circles and I was hoping that when two overlap I could do a composite colour
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2021-04-02T21:25:22Z Feldman: I was wondering, does anyone know *why* CL-CONT is so slow, on the technical level?
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2021-04-02T21:28:36Z _death: I guess because it uses funcallable-instances, though I've not checked
2021-04-02T21:30:08Z Feldman: What exactly is a "funcallable instance", a bunch of lambda functions?
2021-04-02T21:30:17Z phoe: nope
2021-04-02T21:30:22Z phoe: it's a MOP term
2021-04-02T21:30:27Z phoe: it's a standard object that is funcallable
2021-04-02T21:31:25Z _death: Feldman: check make-funcallable in the source
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2021-04-02T21:34:20Z Shinmera: even without that you basically need to wrap a ton of stuff in lambdas and thus create a lot of indirection and allocation that is otherwise not necessary. Without direct implementation support you can't do much better.
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2021-04-02T21:35:24Z _death: Feldman: not only that, it calls f/cc-function (a generic function) each time as well.. no dynamic-extent declaration for the &rest arg though maybe it's inferred
2021-04-02T21:36:05Z _death: you can do much better.. personally I like https://8c6794b6.github.io/posts/Delimited-continuations-with-monadic-functions-in-Common-Lisp.html
2021-04-02T21:36:07Z Feldman: _death: Not quite sure how dispatch is done for funcallable instances, but would implementing Robert Strandh's fast dispatch solve or help that?
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2021-04-02T21:36:37Z phoe: it isn't
2021-04-02T21:36:37Z Bike: they don't dispatch, do they?
2021-04-02T21:36:44Z phoe: funcallable instances don't have dispatch by default
2021-04-02T21:36:54Z phoe: dispatching is a GF thing.
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2021-04-02T21:37:02Z Bike: a funcallable instance is just a function with some other slots attach. it doesn't do any kind of dispatch unless you define it to do so.
2021-04-02T21:37:04Z phoe: by default, calling a funcallable instance just calls a standard lisp function
2021-04-02T21:37:07Z Bike: attached.
2021-04-02T21:37:16Z phoe: but what that function does, that's up to the programmer
2021-04-02T21:37:28Z Feldman: Oh right, why are they so slow then? lack of implementation optimisation?
2021-04-02T21:37:42Z phoe: are they slow?
2021-04-02T21:37:50Z Bike: well, death suggested they are
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2021-04-02T21:38:06Z Bike: i'm not sure they are, though. depends on what cl-cont is doing.
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2021-04-02T21:38:43Z Bike: i don't actually understand why a continuations system would involve them
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2021-04-02T21:38:59Z _death: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/cl-cont/cl-cont/-/blob/master/src/special-transformers.lisp#L211
2021-04-02T21:39:15Z Feldman: I would've imagined if FIs weren't generic, they would be as fast as normal functions
2021-04-02T21:39:19Z Bike: okay, that definitely looks slow.
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2021-04-02T21:39:53Z phoe: seems like a 10x overhead over normal functions
2021-04-02T21:40:21Z Bike: i mean, slow because every call does an apply of this other function, which i guess applies VALUES?
2021-04-02T21:40:26Z _death: Feldman: I think you can make some small changes that could make it much faster
2021-04-02T21:40:32Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2372#2372
2021-04-02T21:40:39Z Bike: values represents the final continuation i suppose
2021-04-02T21:41:00Z phoe: but given the sheer number of repetitions I seriously don't think that fin overhead is what makes things slow
2021-04-02T21:41:11Z Bike: phoe: huh, that's way worse than i'd expect... oh, well, actually sbcl is almost certainly going to inline your second lambda there
2021-04-02T21:41:20Z _death: before I also used arnesi continuations, which I don't think do that kind of thing
2021-04-02T21:41:23Z phoe: oh
2021-04-02T21:41:33Z phoe: I don't know how to tell it not to inline
2021-04-02T21:42:24Z _death: oh, looks like they use funcallable instances as well
2021-04-02T21:42:41Z Bike: defining them both as global functions declaimed notinline is one way, but ofc then you get a little bit of overhead from looking up the global
2021-04-02T21:42:50Z Bike: but it's the same for both so it's ok
2021-04-02T21:43:04Z phoe: oh right, that function call isn't inlined
2021-04-02T21:43:09Z phoe: it's optimized away altogether
2021-04-02T21:43:18Z Bike: tomato, tomato
2021-04-02T21:43:29Z Bike: i did not think that through.
2021-04-02T21:43:31Z phoe: okay, I have no idea how to benchmark that
2021-04-02T21:43:38Z phoe: too late for me to think properly
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2021-04-02T21:44:08Z Bike: anyway, it looks like this other stuff cl-cont is doing is going to be slow regardless of how instances work.
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2021-04-02T21:44:53Z Feldman: I'm asking because I was thinking about a tagbody (and possibly symbol-macro) based approach that would avoid wrapping stuff in lambda (they would be wrapped in tagbodies instead, which I assume are lighter)
2021-04-02T21:46:26Z Bike: worth a shot. probably hard to do it correctly in general, tho.
2021-04-02T21:46:31Z luis: fiddlerwoaroof: maybe my next computer will be a mac again, but right now I don't have any macs (not sure if the powerbook still boots :D). Last one got stolen a few years back.
2021-04-02T21:48:00Z _death: Feldman: just removing that f/cc-function call would likely make it much faster (funcallable-standard-instance-access?)
2021-04-02T21:49:03Z pjb: My next computer was a NeXT Computer :-)
2021-04-02T21:51:48Z Feldman: _death: yeah I saw that and was like ??, I suppose FGF would actually help there!, still I wonder why the overhead is 10× for funcallable instances on SBCL in general...
2021-04-02T21:52:07Z _death: Feldman: I'm guessing for the funcallable-instance-function simply having (apply function #'values args) will do.. if the function slot does not change
2021-04-02T21:52:08Z Bike: it's not. phoe's benchmark does not account for an optimization.
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2021-04-02T21:53:23Z _death: Feldman: in short, it's slow because no one worked on making it faster ;)
2021-04-02T21:53:45Z Bike: i tried making them global and the funcallable instance is called pretty much exactly as quickly as a regular function.
2021-04-02T21:54:11Z Bike: ten million calls in 36 ms. it's fine.
2021-04-02T21:54:22Z _death: Bike: that's good to hear
2021-04-02T21:54:52Z Feldman: That's more reassuring
2021-04-02T21:55:17Z Bike: luckily, death has identified several other horrible efficiency issues to gasp in distress at
2021-04-02T21:57:07Z Bike: seems like some other stuff will get screwed up too, here. if every lambda expression is made into one of these funcallable things, that's going to inhibit a lot of normal compiler optimizations
2021-04-02T21:57:39Z Bike: i don't see anything that sets the f/cc-function, at least?
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2021-04-02T21:59:05Z _death: Bike: me neither.. there's use of the reader, and that can turn into f-i-s-a or something..
2021-04-02T21:59:18Z Bike: or just have the instance function close over it
2021-04-02T21:59:37Z _death: Bike: yeah, I mean in fdesignator-to-function/cc
2021-04-02T21:59:53Z Bike: oh i see
2021-04-02T22:03:14Z asarch: This is a meme about how hard a programming language could be. What is "The Lambda Tessaract"? Is it related to Common Lisp? https://pasteboard.co/JVwyaeU.jpg
2021-04-02T22:03:43Z Bike: asarch: probably some kind of reference to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda_cube
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2021-04-02T22:04:17Z Bike: i guess you could add subtyping as another dimension to get a tesseract
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2021-04-02T22:07:39Z Bike: so basically, no
2021-04-02T22:07:48Z asarch: ?
2021-04-02T22:07:58Z asarch: I mean, Oh
2021-04-02T22:08:06Z asarch: Yeah, yeah
2021-04-02T22:08:09Z asarch: Thank you Bike
2021-04-02T22:08:13Z asarch: Thank you very much :-)
2021-04-02T22:08:24Z Bike: happy to be of assistance
2021-04-02T22:09:52Z asarch: I owe you some beers :-)
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2021-04-02T22:47:36Z thomasb06: Bike the 'Status' section in the readme.md says to get in touch with Nvidia issue: https://github.com/malcolmstill/ulubis/issues/64
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2021-04-03T03:02:02Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-04-03T03:16:15Z charles`: Hi beach.
2021-04-03T03:16:30Z charles`: Is there any reason why quicklisp would not prioritize local-projects?
2021-04-03T03:16:55Z no-defun-allowed: It always has for me.
2021-04-03T03:17:36Z charles`: It has for me too, but in this one situation, it continues to pull form latest quicklisp release
2021-04-03T03:18:42Z loke[m]1: charles` you can try to delete system-index.txt
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2021-04-03T03:20:44Z charles`: wow, amazing! much thanks
2021-04-03T03:22:48Z thermo: i'm using sbcl, and i'm struggling to diagnose a slow OOM. i was hoping to get some related info by setting sb-kernel:gc-logfile and inspecting the output --- but nothing seems to be being written. are there further flags i'm meant to set?
2021-04-03T03:24:21Z beach: What is "OOM"?
2021-04-03T03:24:32Z thermo: out of memory
2021-04-03T03:24:39Z beach: Ah, OK.
2021-04-03T03:28:27Z thermo: i'd also be happy to just hear generic tips about diagnosing memory problems. if there's a way to see statistics what's still alive and where it was allocated, that'd be amazing
2021-04-03T03:31:15Z no-defun-allowed: If you break and evaluate (room t), SBCL provides a list of object types which have instances which occupy the most memory.
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2021-04-03T03:49:00Z charles`: Does anyone know of special variables not behaving properly on ABCL?
2021-04-03T03:50:36Z beach: Are you sure the behavior is ABCL specific?
2021-04-03T03:51:08Z no-defun-allowed: How are they misbehaving?
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2021-04-03T04:10:06Z charles`: beach, no-defun-allowed: I'm not sure 😁. I would really appreciate a you taking a look. It works perfectly on sbcl. Let me write a test that displays what is wrong. Then I will share a link.
2021-04-03T04:50:26Z charles`: Well, I managed to figure it out on my own. I'm sorry for possibly blaming ABCL.
2021-04-03T04:53:47Z beach: Congratulations!
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2021-04-03T04:57:39Z charles`: Are you working on anything cool today?
2021-04-03T04:58:43Z beach: minion: Please tell charles` about SICL.
2021-04-03T04:58:44Z minion: charles`: SICL: SICL is a (perhaps futile) attempt to re-implement Common Lisp from scratch, hopefully using improved programming and bootstrapping techniques. See https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL
2021-04-03T05:00:48Z charles`: I know about it, I just mean specifically
2021-04-03T05:01:05Z beach: Register allocation.
2021-04-03T05:01:17Z beach: I invented what I think is a new technique.
2021-04-03T05:02:00Z charles`: that would be when you need to do some operations, how to decide which registers to put the data in?
2021-04-03T05:02:20Z beach: It is based on the OPT (imaginary) paging algorithm in that it estimates the distance to the next use of lexical variables, and when it needs to spill, it spills the one with the greatest estimated distance.
2021-04-03T05:02:45Z beach: More like deciding which register to spill to the stack when there are not enough of them.
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2021-04-03T05:15:44Z beach: Registers are typically grouped into (overlapping) categories like general-purpose, caller saves, callee saves, floating point.  Usually, any register in the right category will do for an operation.
2021-04-03T05:15:45Z beach: But when there are not enough registers, but you need for a lexical variable to be in a register even though right now it is not, you need to "steal" a register from some other lexical variable.  Performance depends crucially on that choice.
2021-04-03T05:16:38Z beach: If you steal a register from a lexical variable that is going to be needed in a register fairly soon, you waste load/store operations.
2021-04-03T05:17:12Z beach: charles`: Does that make sense?
2021-04-03T05:17:17Z charles`: Sure does
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2021-04-03T05:22:18Z charles`: When you are doing this stuff with registers are you still writing it in Lisp?
2021-04-03T05:23:10Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, all of the compiler is written in Lisp. (This is also the case for SBCL and Clozure at least.)
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2021-04-03T05:32:53Z charles`: I know that is the idea, but I just can't wrap my head around how you would manipulate registers like that.
2021-04-03T05:33:07Z charles`: without actually programming assembly
2021-04-03T05:34:32Z aeth: Effectively, via custom "inline assembly" except it's syntactically just s-expressions so it's not really "inline assembly".
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2021-04-03T05:34:43Z beach: Oh, you write a "code generator" in Common Lisp.  You turn the Common Lisp code into machine code, and the program doing the turning is just another Common Lisp program.  It is that program that inspects the instructions that are needed and makes decisions about what registers to use.
2021-04-03T05:34:55Z no-defun-allowed: You generate assembly in the end with any compiler. But the code manipulating the assembly is written in Common Lisp, yes.
2021-04-03T05:35:22Z beach: charles`: The decisions are made at compile time, not at run time.
2021-04-03T05:35:25Z seok: anyone else experiencing high latency with winhttp
2021-04-03T05:37:04Z charles`: hmm, so even though you aren't writing a compiler in assembly, there is some assembly written as output (maybe in a string). I got that it is at compile time.
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2021-04-03T05:38:34Z no-defun-allowed: Close, but the output is usually machine code, as a vector of bytes.
2021-04-03T05:39:19Z no-defun-allowed remembers "assembly" is the text form of machine code with labels and instruction names. Oops.
2021-04-03T05:40:22Z beach: charles`: As no-defun-allowed says, there is no particular reason for a compiler to generate assembly code.  Assembly code was invented so that humans would have less trouble writing machine code.  But a compiler does not need that human-friendly aspects that assembly provides.
2021-04-03T05:40:24Z charles`: sure, of course.
2021-04-03T05:40:54Z White_Flame: compilers have IRs
2021-04-03T05:41:20Z White_Flame: and "labels" as pointers etc
2021-04-03T05:41:45Z White_Flame: so one could consider such a representation to be very comparable to assembly
2021-04-03T05:42:13Z White_Flame: (s/pointers/references/ when written in lisp, of course)
2021-04-03T05:43:19Z moon-child: White_Flame: for the assembly representation, 'label' is more useful because it enforces an ordering, which you need to compute offsets (and decide when to generate short jumps, for supported platforms)
2021-04-03T05:44:12Z no-defun-allowed: I had generated acceptable assembly output from Cleavir's LIR once (which was used to make verifying it by eyeball somewhat easier).
2021-04-03T05:45:07Z White_Flame: moon-child: I mean a direct reference from 1 instruction's IR object to another
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2021-04-03T05:45:25Z White_Flame: certainly that form can be used to calculate relative offsets just the same
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2021-04-03T06:17:22Z charles`: Could someone help me understand how complex asdf are supposed to work. Ones with multiple systems defined in a single file, and stuff like cl-unicode/base
2021-04-03T06:18:07Z charles`: Why aren't they each in their own .asd file in their own directory?
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2021-04-03T06:25:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: charles`: I tend to find it's nice to group related systems into a single .asd
2021-04-03T06:26:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: ASDF now has some logic to complain if the system names don't follow a specified format, though
2021-04-03T06:26:05Z White_Flame: probably because they're intimately related.  Broken out components of the same library for organization purposes, as well as tests & examples
2021-04-03T06:26:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: :base-system -> :base-system/subsystem
2021-04-03T06:26:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: One common pattern is :base-system and :base-system/tests in the same asd
2021-04-03T06:26:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: So your users don't have to load your testing dependencies
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2021-04-03T13:17:12Z Xach: leo_song_: I'm having a weird problem with osicat, and it looks like it *might* be related to the most recent cffi commit
2021-04-03T13:17:21Z Xach: leo_song_: can i share a log and maybe you have some insight?
2021-04-03T13:17:45Z Xach: it's not just osicat - it's other stuff too
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2021-04-03T13:19:52Z Xach: leo_song_: https://www.xach.com/tmp/fail.txt is for cl-freetype2 for example
2021-04-03T13:21:52Z Xach: or any other cffi friends
2021-04-03T13:21:55Z Xach: (luis?)
2021-04-03T13:22:41Z Xach: It looks like the latest release was put up on common-lisp.net last night
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2021-04-03T13:31:06Z Xach: cl-freetype2, osicat, cl-gss at least - and osicat breaks a *lot* of other things
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2021-04-03T13:33:35Z perdent1: Hi I have a crypto challenge for you all, let me know what you think of it and if you can solve it ! Good luck  The more the merrier, right? We decided to mash two of the best cryptosytems together for the best product. Our new encryption scheme is up and running and this time it is unbreakable! To prove that, we have also released its source code and a test center where you can test it out!  host: 139.59.178.146:31817  (flag is located on the server) https
2021-04-03T13:34:05Z ChanServ has set mode +o Xach
2021-04-03T13:34:08Z Xach has set mode +b *!*perdent@192.145.118.*
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2021-04-03T13:34:22Z Lycurgus: ty
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2021-04-03T13:41:40Z Josh_2: Good afternoon
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2021-04-03T14:07:22Z luis: Xach: thanks, I'll have a look and probably revert that bit. sadly osicat's travis cronjob was not active :(
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2021-04-03T14:46:24Z luis: Xach: pushed 0.24.1, which fixes osicat. Activated osicat's travis cronjob so that hopefully this sort of things gets caught before it reaches Quicklisp next time. thanks.
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2021-04-03T15:57:48Z Xach: luis: thank you!
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2021-04-03T16:02:18Z Xach: Josh_2: https://github.com/xach/vecto/commit/312dea5860c04739d872e21ee9fdb2c759ac5f45 shows how you can do anything you want when blending two colors together with vecto
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2021-04-03T18:02:48Z jcowan: beach: I don't understand why you need to compromise on allocation.  OPT paging is impossible because the kernel has only peephole into what the user program is going to do.  But you have the whole lexical scope already available, so no need to *estimate* what the remote distance.
2021-04-03T18:03:14Z jcowan: Of course there are conditionals, so that requires a model of probable branching.  But I suppose you have that already in order to optimize compiling them.
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2021-04-03T19:58:00Z Josh_2: Xach: thanks I'll give it a look
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2021-04-03T20:48:31Z phoe: Xach: thanks for the garbage collection
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2021-04-03T21:03:36Z jmercouris: But we’ll never known what this unbreakable crypto scheme is!
2021-04-03T21:03:42Z jmercouris: Aren’t you dying to know?
2021-04-03T21:03:55Z jmercouris: /s
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2021-04-03T21:28:34Z aeth: Isn't unbreakable crypto scheme on-topic in #scheme not here?
2021-04-03T21:28:44Z jcowan snickers
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2021-04-03T21:29:40Z aeth: jcowan: and people still wouldn't use it for crypto, because of the parentheses
2021-04-03T21:29:43Z jcowan: I always have to search for [scheme language] or [scheme programming] on Google because of this issue.  SCHMER would have been a much better name
2021-04-03T21:30:04Z jcowan: given the six-letter Maclisp restriction
2021-04-03T21:30:19Z aap: not maclisp, its
2021-04-03T21:30:56Z jcowan: As for the unbreakable crypto scheme, it is one-time tape/pad (xor each bit with a truly random bit, which must be available at both ends).  Of course the key distribution problem is vicious.
2021-04-03T21:32:47Z Odin-: For the latter, see Project Venona.
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2021-04-03T21:34:35Z aeth: aap: you have defeated me in alphabetic sorting!
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2021-04-03T21:34:45Z aap: aeth: sorry :)
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2021-04-03T21:36:59Z jcowan: aap: What do you mean by "not maclisp, its"?
2021-04-03T21:37:35Z aap: i mean the 6 char restriction is one of ITS, not maclisp
2021-04-03T21:37:40Z Odin-: jcowan: The restriction didn't come from maclisp, but ITS.
2021-04-03T21:37:56Z jcowan: Ah, true.
2021-04-03T21:38:34Z jcowan: I cut my teeth on OS/8, which was 8+2 with no hierarchy
2021-04-03T21:38:42Z pjb: Well, it wasn't really a restriction, it was an optimization. Implemented in LISP 1.  You can see it in the sources of LISP 1.5.
2021-04-03T21:39:30Z pjb: Basically, 36-bit hardware, 6-bit characters. Strings were represented using lists of words containing packed 6-character.
2021-04-03T21:39:42Z aap: ITS filenames are literally 6 + 6
2021-04-03T21:39:46Z pjb: So if you used more than 6-character symbols, they used more than one word.
2021-04-03T21:39:56Z aap: usually filename + extension
2021-04-03T21:40:18Z aap: so it would have been extremely unusual to call something by a name longer than 6 chars
2021-04-03T21:40:39Z pjb: unix too was developped on such a system (18-bit words), hence creat and similar function names.
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2021-04-03T21:41:01Z aap: pdp-7 unix used 2 chars per word
2021-04-03T21:41:11Z pjb: 9-bit chars?
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2021-04-03T21:41:17Z aap: no, ascii
2021-04-03T21:41:26Z aap: so, yes, i guess
2021-04-03T21:41:29Z aap: but still just ascii
2021-04-03T21:41:41Z aap: ITS used sixbit
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2021-04-03T21:43:10Z pjb: That said, indeed, one could wish more people used more unique names.  I liked IBM naming scheme. Like IEBFR14; there's no ambiguity.
2021-04-03T21:43:32Z pjb: On the other hand, try to search for "true"…
2021-04-03T21:44:01Z pjb: You need to add eg. true man page for some semblance of uniqueness and specificity.
2021-04-03T21:44:26Z aap: does an empty file need a manpage? :)
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2021-04-03T21:44:40Z aap: i guess it's no longer an empty file these days...
2021-04-03T21:45:08Z pjb: aap: the story of true matches the story of iebfr14.  You'd be surprised by the commit list.
2021-04-03T21:45:23Z aap: ah
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2021-04-03T21:45:50Z pjb: https://github.com/coreutils/coreutils/commits/master/src/true.c
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2021-04-03T21:47:23Z aap: pjb: disgusting
2021-04-03T21:47:28Z aap: true used to be an empty file
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2021-04-03T22:21:46Z pjb: aap: an empty file was clearly a bug for true(1)…
2021-04-03T22:22:04Z aap: is that so?
2021-04-03T22:22:29Z phoe: why are we discussing true(1) again
2021-04-03T22:22:46Z White_Flame: </tautology>
2021-04-03T22:23:43Z aap: something about file names
2021-04-03T22:23:45Z pjb: phoe: naming schemes iebfr14 vs true
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2021-04-03T23:29:10Z jcowan: aap: they should have used UTF-9
2021-04-03T23:29:40Z aap: well, ken did eventually invent utf-8 at least :)
2021-04-03T23:30:00Z jcowan: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4042
2021-04-03T23:30:37Z aap: these were more of a joke, right?
2021-04-03T23:31:42Z jcowan: CHeck out the publication date.  BUt Crispin really was a PDP-10 programmer
2021-04-03T23:32:12Z aap: oh i didn't even realize it was from him
2021-04-03T23:32:23Z jcowan: UTF-18 should be replaced by UTF-18+, which would represent planes 0,1,2,3 instead of 0,1,F,10
2021-04-03T23:34:39Z jcowan: Gotta love this: "We are now in the process of implementing support for nonet-based text files and automated transformation between septet, octet, and nonet textual data."
2021-04-03T23:34:59Z aap: i'm not even sure whether this is a joke
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2021-04-03T23:35:10Z aap: they're still using pdp-10s at XKL
2021-04-03T23:35:11Z aeth: UTF-18+ sounds like a media rating scheme in some random country.
2021-04-03T23:35:22Z aap: although i hear they're using a custom OS these days
2021-04-03T23:36:56Z jcowan: Compuserve ran a modified TOPS-10 for a very long time, which is why Compuserve emails were 7xxxx,xxxx@compuserve.co,m
2021-04-03T23:38:57Z jcowan: I also devised UTF-6, an almost upward compatible extension of Sixbit, but I didnt write an RFC, so I've forgotten the details
2021-04-03T23:39:28Z aeth: What Common Lisp do people here use for PDP-10s?
2021-04-03T23:39:44Z aap: no common lisps unfortunately. but maclisp!
2021-04-03T23:40:47Z aap: you can all come to #pdp-10 if you want :)
2021-04-03T23:42:02Z aeth: But why would I run a PDP VM when I could just run a Windows 98 VM?
2021-04-03T23:42:18Z aap: style points
2021-04-03T23:43:31Z aeth: I wonder if SBCL 0.6.8 runs on Windows 98
2021-04-03T23:44:08Z aap: actually implementing a common lisp for PDP-10 would be interesting
2021-04-03T23:44:15Z aeth: (hmm, 0.6.8 is the oldest tagged version... SBCL news on the website goes back to 0.6.0, though)
2021-04-03T23:45:37Z jcowan: The general idea is to preempt 077, Del in ECMA-1, to show that a non-Sixbit character has been encoded in the general style of UTF-8
2021-04-03T23:46:00Z jcowan: https://www.ecma-international.org/wp-content/uploads/ECMA-1_1st_edition_march_1963.pdf
2021-04-03T23:46:02Z aap: so utf-radix50 when?
2021-04-03T23:46:13Z jcowan: NEVER
2021-04-03T23:46:39Z jcowan: I did use to assign 16-bit magic numbers for binary data using RADIX50, though
2021-04-03T23:46:59Z moon-child: jcowan: sounds like it loses the big advantage of utf8, which is that you can always identify continuation bytes (sextets?)
2021-04-03T23:47:22Z moon-child: (though there may not be very much you can do about that ...)
2021-04-03T23:47:22Z jcowan: Yes.  Perhaps it's more like SRFI-7
2021-04-03T23:49:43Z jcowan: Ah, no, what it preempts is SI and SO, so because there are always both you can identify sequences.
2021-04-03T23:50:28Z moon-child: ah, cool
2021-04-03T23:51:20Z jcowan: buut it is less bounded than UTF-8
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2021-04-04T00:32:05Z jcowan: It should be possible to run CLISP using one of the several C compilers avaiilable for TOPS-10/20.
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2021-04-04T00:32:25Z jcowan: JIT is of coourse another story altogether
2021-04-04T00:32:35Z jcowan: (or native-code AOT)
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2021-04-04T03:04:34Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-04-04T03:06:21Z beach: jcowan: The "estimate" part is exactly that, i.e., branching.
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2021-04-04T11:46:43Z seok: any recommendations on a reference for format directives ?
2021-04-04T11:47:10Z Shinmera: clhs 22.3
2021-04-04T11:47:10Z specbot: Formatted Output: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_c.htm
2021-04-04T11:47:44Z seok: eh I know this one, looking for a nice card on one page xd
2021-04-04T11:48:36Z seok: Ah it's ok I'll use this http://clqr.boundp.org/clqr-letter-consec.pdf
2021-04-04T11:48:37Z seok: ty !'
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2021-04-04T12:18:24Z jcowan: gak, a 56-page "quick reference"
2021-04-04T12:21:28Z semz: CL is a big boy
2021-04-04T12:22:26Z semz: it's rare that people go for completeness with these refereces though, nice to see
2021-04-04T12:22:54Z beach: What makes you think Common Lisp is male?
2021-04-04T12:25:37Z no-defun-allowed: Provided that seeking for a feature is relatively fast (hopefully with sublinear search complexity), a reference could be large and quick.
2021-04-04T12:25:49Z semz: I was going to reach for "lisping (the impediment) is more common in males"
2021-04-04T12:25:51Z semz: but it turns out there is no difference
2021-04-04T12:28:19Z no-defun-allowed: It would be about as creative as the joke I decided to scrap about gendering based on paren/bracket shape.
2021-04-04T12:29:51Z no-defun-allowed: But "big boy" is more common than "big girl" or "big child" or so on, possibly due to alliteration.
2021-04-04T12:30:17Z beach: So "great girl" then?
2021-04-04T12:31:22Z no-defun-allowed: Now that you mention it, I haven't a clue. Human languages are like that.
2021-04-04T12:35:52Z jcowan: I agree about "apt alliteration's artful aid", but I think it's more about gendering things masculine by default, even in natural-gender languages like English
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2021-04-04T12:44:00Z Nilby: Common Lisp is female becuase it take the seed of my idea and turns it into a living thing, but it's male becuase it fucks me over every day while forcing me to do menial labor for free, but it's non-gendered because it's just a programming language specification.
2021-04-04T12:47:03Z lotuseater: like that
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2021-04-04T13:08:32Z splittist: I would be grateful for anyone having a look at https://github.com/splittist/printfcl to see if it makes any sense.  Thanks...
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2021-04-04T13:12:45Z Shinmera: Looks neat. What's the use-case?
2021-04-04T13:13:13Z Shinmera: Translating stuff from C?
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2021-04-04T13:15:47Z splittist: Shinmera: Basically. Or having to reproduce some output format specified with some version of printf format strings.
2021-04-04T13:16:49Z Shinmera: Fair enough. Though I would have exactly liked to have %p, since there's no portable way currently to get the object identifier without doing weird stuff with dissecting print-unreadable-object's output.
2021-04-04T13:17:26Z splittist: Shinmera: exactly what I was looking for. trivial-identity awaits...
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2021-04-04T19:38:01Z Bike: are there any existing libraries to define functions for copying objects? i'm contemplating how to duplicate a complicated data structure and don't want to duplicate work as well
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2021-04-04T19:39:24Z Bike: for example to define things like "when copying this kind of object in this context, this field's value doesn't need to be copied, but this other one's should be"
2021-04-04T19:39:32Z Bike: and of course handling circularity
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2021-04-04T19:43:51Z Shinmera: I've only seen systems that handle this in the context of serialising to another format, but not copying directly.
2021-04-04T19:44:09Z Bike: yeah, i thought that might be the case...
2021-04-04T19:44:11Z Shinmera: Ime typically the copying logic required is either trivial, or complex enough to be better as an internal function.
2021-04-04T19:45:10Z Bike: mostly i'm dreading having to write such an internal function. guess it might be inevitable
2021-04-04T19:45:21Z Shinmera: Even automated traversal of object structures is fraught with issues. I moved away from a system in my game engine that automatically scanned for resources to allocate to a manual system based on a single generic function. Way less hassle and way less error prone.
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2021-04-04T19:48:19Z scymtym: there was this "metacopy" system. i think it had problems, but maybe there are some ideas in there
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2021-04-04T19:54:00Z Bike: i'll look at it, thanks.
2021-04-04T19:54:10Z Bike: i guess game resources are probably similar levels of complicated to what i'm doing.
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2021-04-04T21:26:19Z gigamonkey: Sup folks.
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2021-04-04T21:27:29Z varjag: howdy
2021-04-04T21:27:49Z moon-child: yo
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2021-04-04T21:29:41Z gigamonkey: minion: you still here?
2021-04-04T21:29:42Z minion: what's up?
2021-04-04T21:29:45Z gigamonkey: cool cool
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2021-04-04T21:39:11Z aaronm04: hi all. Do you know how I would fix "No Lisp subprocess; see variable 'inferior-lisp-buffer'" in Emacs? I want to use SLIME :)
2021-04-04T21:40:06Z aaronm04: seen when selecting Lisp->Eval defun while editing a .lisp file
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2021-04-04T21:42:07Z charles`: aaronm04: you have to have start a lisp process. step 1: have a common lisp installed, step 2 run M-x slime ( think it is)
2021-04-04T21:42:41Z Bike: you may need to inform your slime what lisp to run by setting inferior-lisp-program.
2021-04-04T21:42:56Z aaronm04: ahh ok. I did run M-x slime
2021-04-04T21:43:32Z aaronm04: and I have this in my .emacs: (setq inferior-lisp-program "sbcl")
2021-04-04T21:46:17Z aaronm04: aha
2021-04-04T21:46:38Z aaronm04: after running Lisp->Run inferior lisp, everything seems to be working. I can Eval defun
2021-04-04T21:46:45Z aaronm04: sorry for the noise lol
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2021-04-04T22:28:05Z Josh_2: Are there any native lisp async libraries?
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2021-04-04T22:31:31Z no-defun-allowed: I think SBCL has a function in its socket library which calls poll/epoll and can be used to write a driver loop. But in my opinion the best async Lisp experience would be to implement green threads, use a driver loop to wake threads blocked on IO, and then implement usocket and friends using that.
2021-04-04T22:36:25Z Josh_2: I think I will just uses promises
2021-04-04T22:37:17Z Gnuxie[m]: rip conditions
2021-04-04T22:37:37Z no-defun-allowed: "Where should I get silver for making cutlery from?" "*answer*" "Never mind, I think I will make a spoon."
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2021-04-04T22:38:30Z Bike: there are multiple promises implementations in lisp already, at least
2021-04-04T22:38:37Z Josh_2: Yeh
2021-04-04T22:38:40Z Bike: so the spoon doesn't have to be newly forged
2021-04-04T22:39:12Z Josh_2: I don't want to make anything, this is why I asked if a library exists
2021-04-04T22:39:17Z no-defun-allowed: You still find yourself with an async library (or entirely straight-line synchronous code) though.
2021-04-04T22:41:02Z no-defun-allowed: Still, I would find myself either writing code with blocking threads, or implementing enough of do-notation to not go mad with callbacks.
2021-04-04T22:43:30Z Josh_2: Well I'm okay with synchronous code as well
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2021-04-04T22:50:26Z edgar-rft: Josh_2: there's Bordeaux Threads if that's the kind of "async" you're talking about -> https://common-lisp.net/project/bordeaux-threads/
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2021-04-04T22:53:26Z Josh_2: Thanks edgar-rft xD
2021-04-04T22:53:44Z no-defun-allowed: edgar-rft: "async" usually refers to asynchronous IO, which I can only really describe as having an OS thread block on a single connection (unless there are no more connections to block on). Think poll, Unix AIO, io_uring, etc.
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2021-04-04T22:54:49Z edgar-rft: "async" refers to anything asynchronous you can imagine and is a very broad and unprecise term
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2021-04-05T01:35:26Z huonib: can someone help me with this? I am working on a project and I am looking to use a lisp that compiles to a small binary - either ecl, chez, or chicken scheme
2021-04-05T01:35:43Z huonib: right now I am trying this with ecl but I am getting an error: https://gist.github.com/huonib/9ddddc7998c43681795309233feeeb5c
2021-04-05T01:36:09Z huonib: I used quickproject to create the project, all I did was add the hello function
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2021-04-05T01:36:14Z Bike: What is the error?
2021-04-05T01:37:02Z huonib: I updated the gist with it - sorry
2021-04-05T01:37:14Z huonib: Condition of type: UNDEFINED-FUNCTION
2021-04-05T01:37:15Z huonib: The function HELLO is undefined.
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2021-04-05T01:37:59Z huonib: Bike: thank you for taking your time
2021-04-05T01:38:21Z Bike: wait, sorry, what is make-build? i don't have that function in my asdf and i don't see it in the manual.
2021-04-05T01:38:26Z huonib: ... to help. god I am bad at writing.
2021-04-05T01:38:52Z huonib: Bike: found it here: https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/static/manual/System-building.html#Compiling-with-ASDF
2021-04-05T01:38:58Z Bike: oh, it's only defined on ecl
2021-04-05T01:39:32Z Bike: well, my guess is that when the program starts, *package* is something other than helloworld
2021-04-05T01:39:42Z Bike: you could check by typing *package* in the repl there and seeing what it is
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2021-04-05T01:41:59Z huonib: Bike: that was it indeed
2021-04-05T01:43:01Z huonib: when does the package change automatically? I thought slime did that for some reason.
2021-04-05T01:44:41Z huonib: Bike: thank you so much though, that was really helpful
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2021-04-05T01:48:22Z Bike: yeah, no prob. i don't know how to use make-build, but you could probably set it in :prologue-code?
2021-04-05T01:48:48Z Bike: if i'm reading the asdf changelogs correctly, make-build is deprecaed
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2021-04-05T01:50:53Z Bike: probably the new lisp starts in cl-user by default.
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2021-04-05T02:08:41Z huonib: huh - I didn't have that much faith in ECL, since I heard nobody really uses it, but it generates a binary of 2.1 MB whereas chicken scheme is at 4.6 MB
2021-04-05T02:08:44Z huonib: that's impressive
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2021-04-05T02:09:21Z Bike: ecl is actively developed. i don't use it regularly but it sounds like it works fine
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2021-04-05T02:10:12Z huonib: Bike: that is great to hear
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2021-04-05T02:12:11Z huonib: Bike: I am a complete idiot, so bear with me, but chicken scheme can compile without the runtime - is that possible with ecl?
2021-04-05T02:12:39Z Bike: what, like freestanding C?
2021-04-05T02:13:24Z huonib: Bike: https://wiki.call-cc.org/generating%20the%20smallest%20possible,%20self-contained%20executable
2021-04-05T02:13:48Z huonib: Bike: what do you mean by freestanding C?
2021-04-05T02:15:10Z Bike: the C standard uses the term 'freestanding' to mean implementations that almost entirely lack runtime support
2021-04-05T02:15:31Z Bike: but i see this chicken example still uses the c runtime
2021-04-05T02:15:38Z Bike: just not the chicken runtime
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2021-04-05T02:15:52Z huonib: oh, sorry, I should have been clearer.
2021-04-05T02:15:57Z Bike: i have no idea if ecl supports this
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2021-04-05T02:17:02Z Bike: i think there's an #ecl channel, and also jackdaniel comes around here and is a maintainer
2021-04-05T02:17:08Z Bike: if this isn't covered in the manual
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2021-04-05T02:19:02Z Bike: trying to reduce binary size is kind of a niche concern, so support could be lacking
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2021-04-05T02:19:17Z huonib: Bike: thank you
2021-04-05T02:19:19Z Bike: you can link the ecl runtime as a shared object, i'm pretty sure
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2021-04-05T03:01:34Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-04-05T03:05:11Z raeda: Good morning!
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2021-04-05T03:07:33Z beach: Hey raeda.  Did you get in touch with easye about ABCL?
2021-04-05T03:07:54Z raeda: No, haven't heard back yet
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2021-04-05T05:25:27Z nigggg: Greetings
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2021-04-05T05:26:29Z beach: Hello nigggg.
2021-04-05T05:27:07Z beach: nigggg: Are you new here?  I don't recognize your nick.
2021-04-05T05:27:47Z nigggg: I'm on an alt
2021-04-05T05:27:57Z nigggg: I am equwal
2021-04-05T05:28:03Z beach: Oh, OK.
2021-04-05T05:29:01Z nigggg: Currently installing linux on my laptop because my old one had a fan malfunction.
2021-04-05T05:29:09Z nigggg: so alt
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2021-04-05T06:28:19Z susam: Good morning, everyone!
2021-04-05T06:28:28Z susam: Good morning, beach!
2021-04-05T06:28:48Z beach: Hello susam.
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2021-04-05T10:00:19Z luis: I've just noticed that SLIME's presentations weakly reference their respective object: they don't prevent the object from being GCed and if the object is GCed, the presentation is disabled (it turns into plain text). I'd never noticed this before. Is this how LispM/CLIM presentations work too?
2021-04-05T10:01:08Z loke[m]1: luis: that's not how they behaved in the past. I'm pretty sure I needed to C-x M-o to lose the references to them.
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2021-04-05T10:04:58Z luis: loke[m]1: I was under that impression too, but *object-to-presentation-id* and *presentation-id-to-object* have been weak hash-tables for well over a decade and I don't think the REPL has ever stored them anywhere but * ** ** / // //. At some point (2006-ish?) SBCL didn't support weak hash-tables.
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2021-04-05T10:06:41Z loke[m]1: luis: Perhaps the reference is held somewhere else. I just tried creating a large array, leaving it in a presentation and did a (gc :full t)
2021-04-05T10:06:53Z loke[m]1: I did several actually. And the presentation still works.
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2021-04-05T10:07:35Z luis: loke[m]1: did you evaluate enough subsequent forms to clear it from * ** ***?
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2021-04-05T10:08:36Z loke[m]1: The 5 evaluations of (gc :full t) should have been enough, but for good measure I did about 10 more evaluations of simple numbers followed by a few more gc's.
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2021-04-05T10:12:13Z luis: loke[m]1: how did you determine the presentation still works?
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2021-04-05T10:13:53Z luis: Try right clicking it.
2021-04-05T10:14:38Z loke[m]1: luis: Well, I went to it and typed C-c C-v TAB. But yes, right-clicking also works.
2021-04-05T10:16:07Z luis: loke[m]1: Well, I'm stumped. That's not the behaviour I'm seeing.
2021-04-05T10:16:31Z loke[m]1: I use the version of SLIME synced from the git repository today.
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2021-04-05T10:17:37Z luis: We need a third volunteer to try and reproduce this. :-)
2021-04-05T10:18:08Z luis looks around
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2021-04-05T10:19:31Z luis: Anyone with SBCL and SLIME on hand?
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2021-04-05T10:20:39Z no-defun-allowed: I remember copying the presentation to another buffer, and then doing some more stuff, including clearing output, then the presentation would stop working.
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2021-04-05T10:22:10Z luis: no-defun-allowed: that's expected since clearing output clears presentations (or it tries to, I'm baffled by that particular bit of code too, but that's another story)
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2021-04-05T10:22:53Z no-defun-allowed: Ah, I am talking about something else. /me rereads
2021-04-05T10:24:20Z no-defun-allowed: CLIM presentations would strongly reference from memory, else they could not be ACCEPTed or used for gesture translation(?) later, and I don't recall reading that the implementation could allow ACCEPT to stop working for whatever reason.
2021-04-05T10:24:30Z luis: So, the test case is: evaluate the following forms in the slime-repl one by one: (make-array 10), 1, 2, 3, (gc :full t) then right click (or C-c C-v TAB) the array presentation. I get "object no longer recorded" but it works for loke[m]1 for some reason.
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2021-04-05T10:25:02Z no-defun-allowed: But I also agree that I thought *slime-repl* served as "roots" somehow.
2021-04-05T10:25:33Z luis: We're all in agreement about how it /should/ work so far. :-)
2021-04-05T10:25:51Z no-defun-allowed: Huh, it does in fact say "Object no longer recorded" in the right-click menu, and then it ceases to be clickable.
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2021-04-05T10:26:05Z luis: Ah, a confirmation. That's nice.
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2021-04-05T10:27:32Z luis: no-defun-allowed: thanks. loke[m]1: not sure why you're getting different results.
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2021-04-05T10:28:17Z rick-monster: luis I couldn't repro (assuming 1,2,3 means wait 3 seconds)
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2021-04-05T10:29:06Z no-defun-allowed: It means to evaluate 1, then evaluate 2, then evaluate 3, in order to clear out the "history" variables.
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2021-04-05T10:31:08Z rick-monster: in that case I can repro - C-c C-v TAB results in "Attempt to access unrecorded object (id 94)"
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2021-04-05T10:34:31Z rick-monster: software versions for repro: sbcl 2.0.8, swank/slime 2.26.1, linux.
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2021-04-05T10:40:06Z luis: rick-monster: thanks.
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2021-04-05T11:03:24Z rick-monster: I'm dusting off an old music-control framework I wrote for lisp-on-linux and would like to discuss an aspect of the design.
2021-04-05T11:03:37Z rick-monster: the project is called 'serial hub' because it aggregates events from serial devices (eg midi, OSC, other usb music-controller peripherals). Currently each serial device or network socket has dedicated blocking thread to translate incoming serial data from a stream to lisp object. lisp objects from various sources are aggregated by sending them into a threadsafe channel (lisp library calispel). application layer simply re
2021-04-05T11:03:37Z rick-monster: out of channel - easy event loop programming.
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2021-04-05T11:05:38Z rick-monster: thought for a while I should make the framework single-threaded. Rather than threads aggregate threadsafe channel, better to poll a group of file-descriptors in event-loop idle phase. I suspect this makes timing more deterministic when run on single-core linux.
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2021-04-05T11:10:25Z rick-monster: now, 2 questions...
2021-04-05T11:10:38Z rick-monster: 1. will I run into horrible insurmountable problems with this file-descriptor-polling approach (sbcl/ccl for linux x86/ARM) when USB cable of a serial device is unexpectedly pulled?
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2021-04-05T11:11:19Z no-defun-allowed: I think polling allows you to detect errors somehow, but I forgot how.
2021-04-05T11:11:22Z rick-monster: 2. is there a good existing lisp library which will handle the file-descriptor-polling part?
2021-04-05T11:11:46Z luis: rick-monster: if you're going to serialize event handling anyway polling a group of fds seems better, but nothing beats testing. iolib seems like a good candidate for that.
2021-04-05T11:11:56Z no-defun-allowed: There's an array of file descriptors and flags you pass, and one of those flags is to poll for errors.
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2021-04-05T11:16:43Z rick-monster: no-defun-allowed: think I remember previously hitting a case where reading a now-unplugged USB-device file descriptor raises a signal which got mis-handled by sbcl causing a meltdown. Maybe this poll-for-errors is the trick I was missing
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2021-04-05T11:17:30Z no-defun-allowed: You might also want to handle the signal then.
2021-04-05T11:17:39Z luis: rick-monster: that seems like a problem that would happen regardless of polling strategy.
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2021-04-05T11:19:47Z rick-monster: luis, no-defun-allowed thanks for your input. think I need to approach the problem with a new mini-project which simply reads/writes a single serial device via iolib, but correctly detects and handles USB hotplugging
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2021-04-05T11:52:47Z kevingal: I'm trying to implement streams using macros. So I can write (scons (/ 1 0) empty-stream) and it'll expand to something like (cons (quote (/ 1 0)) nil).
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2021-04-05T11:52:57Z kevingal: Then the head can be evaluated later.
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2021-04-05T11:53:50Z kevingal: But of course I've found that this doesn't work when I do something like (scons (+ a b) empty-stream) because the "a" and "b" are no longer bound when I try to evaluate the head.
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2021-04-05T11:55:06Z kevingal: Is there a way to capture the environment? Or is that a pants-on-head thing to do?
2021-04-05T11:55:45Z Xach: kevingal: you could expand into (lambda () ...) and funcall it to get the value.
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2021-04-05T11:56:44Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, usually you implement lazy conses with a macro that expands to something with (lambda () <form>) wrapping the car and cdr.
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2021-04-05T12:03:24Z kevingal: Riiiight, that makes sense. Thank you.
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2021-04-05T12:08:20Z aggin: anyone here ever tried using lquery with cl-arrows ?
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2021-04-05T12:32:11Z aggin: https://pastebin.com/zeiWE1KL
2021-04-05T12:32:25Z aggin: Why is lquery:$ acting up ?
2021-04-05T12:32:50Z aggin: when I put lquery:$ under a different function name, it works perfectly fine
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2021-04-05T12:35:46Z aggin: https://pastebin.com/GYz1WbtN
2021-04-05T12:35:50Z aggin: this works perfectly fine
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2021-04-05T12:38:43Z Bike: are the macroexpansions different? other than the name obviously
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2021-04-05T12:39:16Z aggin: from what the SBCL error tells me, I think so
2021-04-05T12:39:35Z Bike: have you looked at them? like with macroexpand-1?
2021-04-05T12:39:54Z aggin: I did it with sly-macroexpand-1, it gave the one I've sent
2021-04-05T12:39:57Z aggin: the expected one
2021-04-05T12:40:16Z aggin: but when doing macroexpand-1 in the function, it gives an error before I can see the end result
2021-04-05T12:41:41Z aggin: idk why the 1st arg to -<>> goes to the 2nd arg
2021-04-05T12:41:50Z phoe: for whatever reason lquery:$ funges the CONCATENATE call
2021-04-05T12:41:55Z aggin: *2nd arg to -<>> goes to the 1st arg
2021-04-05T12:41:59Z aggin: phoe: yeah
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2021-04-05T12:42:20Z phoe: the arrow expands into (AREF (LQUERY:$ DATA (CONCATENATE 'STRING ".cb-lv-scr-mtch-hdr a[href*=" QUERY "].text-bold")) 0)
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2021-04-05T12:42:29Z aggin: which is what I want
2021-04-05T12:42:34Z phoe: which is what does not compile
2021-04-05T12:42:39Z aggin: but when I run it, the SBCL error shows me something else
2021-04-05T12:42:47Z Bike: oh, yeah, looking at $ there, it doesn't look like you can just put normal code in there?
2021-04-05T12:43:03Z aggin: wdym ?
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2021-04-05T12:43:12Z aggin: putting something other than lquery:$ ?
2021-04-05T12:43:14Z aggin: yeah that works fine
2021-04-05T12:43:39Z Bike: i man, you're doing ($ (concatenate ...) ...), and it looks like $ does something with lists other than normally executing them?
2021-04-05T12:43:47Z Bike: from the docstring
2021-04-05T12:43:56Z Bike: https://github.com/Shinmera/lquery/blob/master/lquery.lisp#L91-L96
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2021-04-05T12:44:46Z aggin: hmm so I think concatenate is in LQUERY-MACROS
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2021-04-05T12:45:07Z phoe: yes, looks like $ does lots of stuff under the hood and it implements its own DSL in place of stndard Lisp
2021-04-05T12:45:09Z Shinmera: Lquery treats function names specially to avoid requiring you to prefix them all with the package name.
2021-04-05T12:45:24Z aggin: guess I should use a let statement for concatenate
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2021-04-05T13:47:21Z kslt1: I'm using emacs/SLIME/SBCL. I wanna use a testing framework for my project from the start. Are there any "survey's" of quicklisp installable testing frameworks I can take a look at?
2021-04-05T13:47:47Z Shinmera: Sabra said he'd make a survey some time, but I don't think he ever found the time to actually do it.
2021-04-05T13:47:56Z phoe: kslt1: how much do you want from your test framework?
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2021-04-05T13:48:26Z kslt1: I dunno yet.
2021-04-05T13:48:46Z Shinmera: I wrote Parachute, so I'm biased towards that.
2021-04-05T13:48:49Z phoe: the absolute minimalism is using DEFUN over ASSERT
2021-04-05T13:48:58Z phoe: a step above absolute minimalism is using 1AM
2021-04-05T13:49:32Z kslt1: Was hoping to build on appetite based on the survey.
2021-04-05T13:49:35Z phoe: above that there's, in random order: fiasco, parachute, fiveam, prove, tens of other test frameworks that are more or less popular
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2021-04-05T13:51:24Z kslt1: I got interesting looking at the Common Lisp Cookbook example using "prove".
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2021-04-05T13:52:50Z kslt1: I'll do a little more research using above list as starting point. Thanks!
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2021-04-05T14:25:41Z MichaelRaskin: phoe: I am pretty sure I wrote assert-based example/test sets without defun, so _absolute_ minimalism is just assert
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2021-04-05T14:40:58Z kslt1: prove docs mentioned prove becoming obsolete, which made me wonder about it.
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2021-04-05T14:41:12Z phoe: MichaelRaskin: oh right, sure
2021-04-05T14:41:22Z phoe: if you want compile-time testing then just ASSERT is enough
2021-04-05T14:41:40Z phoe: DEFUN is just to defer testing to execution time
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2021-04-05T15:04:33Z shka_: i kinda like prove
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2021-04-05T15:04:46Z shka_: it remains simple, but it integrates with the asdf
2021-04-05T15:05:37Z shka_: didn't tried rove yet
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2021-04-05T15:16:46Z mfiano: FInd it odd that prove was deprecated in favor of rove, when rove doesn't even have all the testing constructs prove does
2021-04-05T15:22:49Z jackdaniel: who deprecated it?
2021-04-05T15:23:08Z phoe: the author
2021-04-05T15:23:45Z jackdaniel: mhm
2021-04-05T15:23:53Z mfiano: More like obsoleted, but yeah
2021-04-05T15:24:54Z jackdaniel: I like 5am - totally not sexy but quite dependable
2021-04-05T15:25:02Z mfiano: I still use prove. I've tried other frameworks and had some bugs with false positives and never really needed anything more from prove. It does use ASDF in a deprecated way, causing warnings.
2021-04-05T15:25:16Z mfiano: But whatevs
2021-04-05T15:36:45Z kevingal: Is there a way to define self-referential lexical variables? I'm trying to define an infinite stream in terms of itself, which worked with DEFPARAMETER, but when I try to use LET or LET*, I get an unbound variable error.
2021-04-05T15:37:26Z kevingal: E.g. (defparameter ones (stream-cons 1 ones)) is the infinite stream of 1s (example from SICP).
2021-04-05T15:37:51Z Bike: clhs labels
2021-04-05T15:37:52Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_flet_.htm
2021-04-05T15:37:59Z phoe: that's for functions though
2021-04-05T15:38:08Z Bike: you can use this for almost any use of scheme letrec
2021-04-05T15:38:16Z phoe: I think you might need to quote ONES in there and explicitly call SYMBOL-VALUE on it when you want to retrieve the value
2021-04-05T15:38:46Z phoe: e.g. something like (defparameter *ones* (cons 1 (lambda () (symbol-value '*ones*))))
2021-04-05T15:39:27Z Bike: (defparameter *ones* (labels ((thunk () (cons 1 #'thunk))) (thunk)))
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2021-04-05T15:48:59Z phoe: oooh, like *this*
2021-04-05T15:49:05Z phoe: TIL
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2021-04-05T16:00:56Z Bike: http://ix.io/2V85 attempt at general letrec
2021-04-05T16:01:01Z Bike: results in a pointless thunk here, tho
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2021-04-05T16:01:55Z Bike: also, it will hang if your definition doesn't delay the use of itself, so don't do that.
2021-04-05T16:02:18Z Bike: i'm pretty sure i wrote something like t his years ago for this exact purpose and then never used it for anything
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2021-04-05T16:02:54Z kevingal: Hmmm, (let ((ones (stream-cons 1 ones))) ones) actually works. I'm trying to debug why my more complicated example is failing.
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2021-04-05T16:04:24Z Bike: that really shouldn't work. is it possible you have ONES defined as a global variable?
2021-04-05T16:05:05Z kevingal: Ahh, you're right.
2021-04-05T16:05:27Z Bike: my thing works on (letrec ((ones (scons 1 threes)) (threes (scons 3 ones))) ones), neato
2021-04-05T16:06:24Z Bike: oh, and bonus tip: you can do (makunbound 'ones) to make something stop being a global variable
2021-04-05T16:06:46Z phoe: Bike: but it'll still be special
2021-04-05T16:06:55Z phoe: no portable way other than UNINTERN to solve that
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2021-04-05T16:08:52Z kevingal: Thanks for the tips! I would normally give them earmuffs but I was copying from SICP :D
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2021-04-05T16:14:53Z kevingal: phoe: the SYMBOL-VALUE approach didn't work, I'm afraid! (scdr (let ((wuns (scons 1 (symbol-value 'thingy)))) wuns))
2021-04-05T16:15:18Z kevingal: So do I understand correctly that the variable is only available for capture within the body of the LET?
2021-04-05T16:15:36Z kevingal: Sorry, that should be: (scdr (let ((wuns (scons 1 (symbol-value 'wuns)))) wuns))
2021-04-05T16:15:40Z Bike: yes, variables are only bound by let within the body of the let.
2021-04-05T16:15:55Z Bike: also, symbol-value is about dynamic variables, not lexical variables, so it's probably not relevant to your question.
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2021-04-05T16:19:26Z Bike: sicp is using LETREC for this, not LET, right?
2021-04-05T16:21:14Z kevingal: So far it has only used DEFINE.
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2021-04-05T16:22:21Z Bike: oh, well, okay.
2021-04-05T16:22:57Z Bike: top level definitions can be recursive, obviously. for recursive local definitions you can't use LET since it doesn't make the bindings available to the value-forms.
2021-04-05T16:23:26Z Bike: LETREC does, but it doesn't exist in the common lisp standard. instead you have to use labels, which is similar, but only allows binding functions.
2021-04-05T16:24:25Z kevingal: Gotcha, that's very helpful, thanks.
2021-04-05T16:26:16Z kevingal: I think for now I'll just steal your version of LETREC, haha.
2021-04-05T16:27:29Z Bike: keep in mind i wrote it in two minutes and didn't test it, so it may bite
2021-04-05T16:28:38Z Bike: also it can be much more simply written with mutation
2021-04-05T16:29:03Z Bike: (let (ones) (setf ones (scons 1 ones)) ones)
2021-04-05T16:29:09Z Bike: i didn't write it that way because i forgot
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2021-04-05T16:41:22Z Nilby: letrec etc is not needed for this, cons-stream is just a macro. you just have to make delay/force which could most simply be quote/eval or quote/symbol-value.
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2021-04-05T16:41:39Z pjb: kevingal: the problem is that you wrote stream-cons wrong.
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2021-04-05T16:42:38Z Bike: eval would be even worse than my overcomplicated letrec macro.
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2021-04-05T16:46:16Z kevingal: Howso? My stream-cons / scons macro expands to a cons with both of the elements wrapped in a lambda.
2021-04-05T16:47:04Z Bike: well, the relevant way eval won't help is that it cannot access lexical variables.
2021-04-05T16:47:53Z kevingal: I initially tried using quote, but that didn't capture surrounding variables so this gave an error: (let ((a 1) (b 2)) (scons (/ a b) the-empty-stream).
2021-04-05T16:48:06Z Bike: right.
2021-04-05T16:48:13Z kevingal: (I was pestering people in the channel about this earlier).
2021-04-05T16:49:17Z pjb: kevingal: https://termbin.com/onknp
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2021-04-05T16:51:00Z pjb: kevingal: but yes, there's no let form in CL that evaluate the initialization form in a scope where the variable is defined.  We'd have to write a letrec macro…
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2021-04-05T16:52:35Z huonib: does anyone know how to create a static binary with ecl?
2021-04-05T16:52:42Z huonib: I posted on #ecl too
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2021-04-05T17:05:30Z shka_: how can I get the current condition in the restart-case?
2021-04-05T17:05:50Z shka_: uhm, i think that this is wrong question
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2021-04-05T17:08:32Z Bike: it would have to be passed to the restart.
2021-04-05T17:09:54Z shka_: kevingal: you can fake it with labels, as already demonstrated
2021-04-05T17:10:10Z shka_: Bike: yeah, i realized that
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2021-04-05T17:20:39Z pjb: shka_: (loop for i below 10 do (with-simple-restart (continue "continue") (if (zerop (random 2)) (invoke-restart 'continue)) (princ i))) #| 25679 --> nil |#
2021-04-05T17:20:43Z pjb: shka_: no condition.
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2021-04-05T17:49:54Z shka_: uh, it is solved
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2021-04-05T21:29:56Z jmercouris: there is no way to safely call C right? because CFFI relies on the C code returning successfully right?
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2021-04-05T21:30:12Z jmercouris: and when it doesn't, there is no realistic way to recover state, no?
2021-04-05T21:30:50Z White_Flame: maybe launch a C thread and wait for its return as a side effect somewhere, with a timeout that blows away the thread?
2021-04-05T21:31:00Z White_Flame: but still, can't easily prevent C from trampling things
2021-04-05T21:31:05Z jmercouris: right
2021-04-05T21:31:14Z jmercouris: C can write anything to anywhere and always mess up your program
2021-04-05T21:31:18Z moon-child: iirc that's what go and haskell do
2021-04-05T21:31:22Z White_Flame: would need full long hardware transactional memory
2021-04-05T21:31:26Z jmercouris: unless you use some operating level system protection right?
2021-04-05T21:31:41Z jmercouris: maybe a completely different process or something
2021-04-05T21:31:52Z White_Flame: process would definitely work, but taht also means marshalling everything
2021-04-05T21:31:57Z White_Flame: you could fork to make the call, too
2021-04-05T21:32:10Z moon-child: still have to marshal the result
2021-04-05T21:32:18Z White_Flame: right, elminates half the marshallings
2021-04-05T21:32:20Z moon-child: if the c lib allocates, you need some way to figure out what it allocated and copy it through
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2021-04-05T21:32:32Z jmercouris: right, which involves complex wrapping
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2021-04-05T21:32:33Z moon-child: or force it to allocate shmem, which comes with its own issues
2021-04-05T21:32:44Z jmercouris: I was just watching this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4-YnLpLgtk
2021-04-05T21:32:50Z White_Flame: all depends if the C return value is standalone, or if you need C's side effects
2021-04-05T21:32:54Z jmercouris: and I was thinking if the C code could crash the Lisp machine
2021-04-05T21:33:23Z White_Flame: even in a separate process, C could kill the lisp process, unless you make it under another user with low permissions etc
2021-04-05T21:33:34Z White_Flame: how far do you want to go?
2021-04-05T21:33:45Z White_Flame: C could use privilege escalation attacks as well etc
2021-04-05T21:33:47Z jmercouris: fair enough
2021-04-05T21:33:59Z jmercouris: I am just thinking about GTK inadvertent failures
2021-04-05T21:34:06Z jmercouris: something like that
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2021-04-05T21:36:04Z jmercouris: I must say the Open Genera system looks very impressive
2021-04-05T21:36:09Z jmercouris: I understand I'm preaching to the choir here...
2021-04-05T21:36:28Z Nilby: You can safely call C.
2021-04-05T21:37:20Z Nilby: It's just difficult. You have to setup up memory barriers, page tables, processor rings, interrupt tables, etc.
2021-04-05T21:37:55Z Nilby: e.g. the O/S kernel safely calls C
2021-04-05T21:38:41Z jmercouris: right, but the O/S is designed for that
2021-04-05T21:38:44Z jmercouris: and it takes a lot of work
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2021-04-05T21:39:04Z jmercouris: I'm talking about within the realm of realistically possible for a single programmer to achieve
2021-04-05T21:39:15Z Nilby: But the coolest way it to run C as Lisp like Genera did.
2021-04-05T21:39:26Z moon-child: plenty of people have written their own OSes
2021-04-05T21:40:27Z moon-child: Nilby: that's what mezzano does.  (Well, it compiles llvm to cl, i think)
2021-04-05T21:41:08Z Nilby: Right. I think that's the nicest way for Lisp to call C, since then you can use the Lisp debugger and tools.
2021-04-05T21:44:44Z Nilby: I think the free Lisps could do a better job of making calling C safe. The commerical Lisps seem to do better.
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2021-04-05T21:50:26Z moon-child: I think there was another c compiler written in lisp.  Not sure how much progress it had made.  The mezzano thing I know was mature enough to run quake
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2021-04-05T22:03:05Z Nilby: moon-child: maybe you're thinking of https://github.com/vsedach/Vacietis
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2021-04-05T22:08:00Z moon-child: I think that was it.  Given some of the TODO items, it looks less far along than I thought
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2021-04-05T22:15:22Z jmercouris: that is incredibly impressive
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2021-04-06T01:26:22Z Josh_2: How can I connect to a lisp image that is already running in sly?
2021-04-06T01:26:52Z Josh_2: My emacs has frozen and I need to connect to the image it had running
2021-04-06T01:27:01Z Josh_2: I don't know if the underlying lisp image has frozen
2021-04-06T01:29:01Z tetrahedron: Josh_2: SLY or SLIME?
2021-04-06T01:29:04Z Josh_2: Sly
2021-04-06T01:29:10Z pjb: Josh_2: well, I don't know about sly, but if a swank server is running, you connect to it with M-x slime-connect RET
2021-04-06T01:29:30Z Josh_2: just got a connection refused
2021-04-06T01:29:32Z Josh_2: :(
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2021-04-06T01:30:12Z pjb: Of course, if there's no swank server listening, the only solution would be to do a gdb attach to the frozen emacs process, and to try to locate and use the socket connected to the image.
2021-04-06T01:30:13Z tetrahedron: https://joaotavora.github.io/sly/#Communication-style
2021-04-06T01:30:26Z pjb: Perhaps closing it would be enough, if the swank server loops on listening.
2021-04-06T01:30:34Z tetrahedron: i think this config var is what you need to fix to choose a lisp server
2021-04-06T01:31:31Z pjb: Josh_2: if this problem occurs often, you could prepare by running multiple swank servers in the lisp image, or some other listening server.
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2021-04-06T01:34:07Z Bike: this looks like slime's communication style, which isn't quite the same
2021-04-06T01:34:21Z Bike: seems there's an M-x sly-connect to use
2021-04-06T01:34:31Z Josh_2: I tried that
2021-04-06T01:34:33Z Bike: though you'll have to figure out what port the lisp is listening on if any
2021-04-06T01:34:36Z Josh_2: It must have frozen
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2021-04-06T01:35:01Z pjb: sudo netstat -tpnl |grep $your_lisp
2021-04-06T01:35:42Z Josh_2: nothing :(
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2021-04-06T01:37:56Z Josh_2: ah well
2021-04-06T01:39:07Z pjb: Without the -l you can see the open connections: sudo netstat -tpn |grep $your_lisp
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2021-04-06T01:39:34Z pjb: If it's still connected to emacs, as I said above, you can use gdb to attach to the frozen emacs, try to locate the socket and close it.
2021-04-06T01:39:42Z pjb: Or just kill the frozen emacs.
2021-04-06T01:40:18Z Josh_2: If I kill the frozen emacs that will shut the lisp image
2021-04-06T01:41:39Z pjb: So you mean that the lisp image was launched by emacs.
2021-04-06T01:41:43Z Josh_2: Yep
2021-04-06T01:41:44Z pjb: You're doomed.
2021-04-06T01:41:47Z Josh_2: Yeh xD
2021-04-06T01:42:08Z pjb: Instead, launch your lisp images separately, run a swank server in it, and use slime-connect instead of slime.
2021-04-06T01:42:19Z tetrahedron: how bad would that be Josh_2 :/
2021-04-06T01:42:26Z Josh_2: Not that bad tetrahedron
2021-04-06T01:42:35Z Josh_2: I will be able to fix it
2021-04-06T01:42:54Z Josh_2: pjb: I will do that, I have been meaning to create a deploy system for this. Lesson learned
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2021-04-06T02:13:10Z Josh_2: I export a macro called 'pkv' from my main package and in a sub package, I use this macro extensively, this package has (use <main package>) in its defpackage, why am I getting an error telling me that pkv isn't defined?
2021-04-06T02:14:53Z no-defun-allowed: Stupid question, use or :use?
2021-04-06T02:15:20Z Josh_2: :use
2021-04-06T02:15:59Z no-defun-allowed: I'm out of ideas then.
2021-04-06T02:16:00Z Bike: well, from that description it should work, so clearly there's some devil in the details
2021-04-06T02:16:11Z Bike: what particular error do you get? udnefined function?
2021-04-06T02:16:45Z Josh_2: yes
2021-04-06T02:17:00Z Bike: you might have to share source then
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2021-04-06T02:38:26Z Josh_2: Well
2021-04-06T02:38:28Z Josh_2: what part?
2021-04-06T02:39:08Z White_Flame: are you (in-package ..) correctly?
2021-04-06T02:39:15Z Bike: the package definitions, i guess
2021-04-06T02:39:37Z White_Flame: (as a 2nd stupid question)
2021-04-06T02:40:20Z Josh_2: White_Flame: yes I have (defpackage .. ) then (in-package ..) after
2021-04-06T02:43:28Z Josh_2: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2374#2374
2021-04-06T02:49:05Z White_Flame: and matrix-moonbot has pkv?
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2021-04-06T02:49:14Z Josh_2: all the other functions work
2021-04-06T02:49:20Z Josh_2: Yes it works in all the other modules defined that way
2021-04-06T02:49:27Z White_Flame: and it's actually exported?
2021-04-06T02:49:29Z Josh_2: Yep
2021-04-06T02:49:30Z Bike: what is the definition of matrix-moonbot.
2021-04-06T02:50:13Z White_Flame: also ensure matrix-moonbot:pk tab-completes with a single colon
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2021-04-06T02:50:32Z White_Flame: and/or (describe 'matrix-moonbot:pkv)
2021-04-06T02:51:19Z Josh_2: When I'm in the mm-module.jitsi it does
2021-04-06T02:51:49Z Josh_2: And then describing it while in that package it returns what I'd expect
2021-04-06T02:52:03Z Josh_2: 'pkv names a macro ... '
2021-04-06T02:54:11Z White_Flame: single-colon, and it says it's exported?
2021-04-06T02:54:31Z Bike: and it actually exists? (macro-function 'pkv) in mm-module.jitsi returns something?
2021-04-06T02:55:40Z White_Flame: if you just C-c C-c an expression, instead of C-c C-k'ing the entire file, it might not have actually run the in-package.  I've hit that on simple files
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2021-04-06T02:57:58Z Josh_2: Okay I fixed
2021-04-06T02:58:12Z Josh_2: Turns out it was absolutely nothing to do with that package...
2021-04-06T02:58:29Z White_Flame: let me guess, pvk vs pkv?
2021-04-06T02:58:43Z Josh_2: nope, I was using pkv before it was defined in a class definition file
2021-04-06T02:58:56Z White_Flame: that'll do it
2021-04-06T02:59:07Z White_Flame: it's weird not to load the full contents of a package before loading another one, though
2021-04-06T03:00:35Z Josh_2: Now I have another odd issue
2021-04-06T03:01:18Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-04-06T03:01:26Z White_Flame: re beach
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2021-04-06T03:07:04Z Josh_2: Okay
2021-04-06T03:08:44Z White_Flame: okey dokey
2021-04-06T03:08:46Z White_Flame: here we gokey
2021-04-06T03:09:15Z Josh_2: Fixed it
2021-04-06T03:09:28Z Josh_2: Man I got you all excited, sorry xD
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2021-04-06T03:09:53Z White_Flame: don't get me wrong, I'm happier to debug my own code than someone else's ;)
2021-04-06T03:12:42Z Josh_2: Well I guess having to restart was a blessing in disguise
2021-04-06T03:13:10Z White_Flame: restarting fixes a lot, but doesn't always tell you where the problem is, especially if it's dynamically munged
2021-04-06T03:13:26Z White_Flame: in the latter, you want to poke in the currently messed up state
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2021-04-06T03:18:44Z Josh_2: In this case restarting brought up a few problems
2021-04-06T03:18:53Z Josh_2: I hadn't stopped the image for about a week
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2021-04-06T03:19:01Z Josh_2: Best fix it now
2021-04-06T03:20:50Z moon-child: clhs loop
2021-04-06T03:20:50Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_loop.htm
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2021-04-06T13:31:23Z huonib: does anyone know of a compiled, dynamic language that doesn't use a garbage collector? I think an academic one might exist, but I am not sure
2021-04-06T13:31:41Z huonib: I am unsure if being dynamic requires a garbage collector... and I cannot find anything making that claim online
2021-04-06T13:34:06Z Krystof: I would not say that being dynamic requires a garbage collector
2021-04-06T13:34:44Z Krystof: As a concrete example, I would expect many Forths not to have a garbage collector
2021-04-06T13:35:43Z Bike: "dynamic" is a really vague term.
2021-04-06T13:35:43Z jackdaniel: put in your init (ext::disable-gc) and there you go, common lisp doesn't use the garbage collector ;-)
2021-04-06T13:36:00Z jackdaniel: don't expect it to work for long though
2021-04-06T13:36:29Z Krystof: I seem to recall stories about Lisp Machines needing to be power-cycled because they really really believed in tenure
2021-04-06T13:37:04Z Xach: I recently learned that Allegro has an operation "panify" to ensure that certain objects never grow old
2021-04-06T13:37:16Z Bike: heh.
2021-04-06T13:37:17Z Xach: (as in peter pan-ify)
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2021-04-06T13:40:39Z jcowan: huonib: GC is what you do to the heap, and Forth has no heap, only two stacks.  (Which at that is better than Fortran II, which has neither heap nor stack.)
2021-04-06T13:40:50Z jcowan: s/II/II or 66
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2021-04-06T13:44:00Z phantomics: Here's a question, not sure if this is completely off the wall ridiculous or not: how practical would it be to create a dialect or DSL within CL that runs code without GC? Meaning inside the code written in this DSL, you would have to manually manage memory and there would be functions for that
2021-04-06T13:44:36Z phantomics: Seems like something that could aid in doing realtime apps in CL
2021-04-06T13:44:40Z Bike: it would be difficult for objects in a managed space to refer to objects in an unmanaged space and vice versa. though it's possible. i mean, most implementations can handle foreign pointers.
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2021-04-06T13:45:19Z Bike: but if an object in unmanaged space has a pointer to an object in managed space, and the collector tries to move things, problems will happen
2021-04-06T13:45:59Z phantomics: Yeah, if CFFI is possible I'd think something like this should be, I don't know if CLs have any functions that let you turn off GC for objects created within a particular block of code
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2021-04-06T13:49:09Z Nilby: phantomics: When heavily using a C FFI objects you have to somewhat restrict yourself to such a dialect. Thank goodness for with- macros. There are also some foreign calls which necessitate turning off GC in some implementations.
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2021-04-06T13:52:13Z Shinmera: The easiest way to prevent GC is to just not allocate.
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2021-04-06T13:52:34Z Shinmera: And that's not even a joke. Allocate things once in a block, then manually recycle the objects. Presto, no GC.
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2021-04-06T13:53:11Z Shinmera: You don't need a DSL or whatever for that, just a lot of restraint and a lot of annoying manual recycling, just when you manually malloc/free.
2021-04-06T13:53:20Z Shinmera: *just like
2021-04-06T13:54:12Z Bike: it might be nice if the compiler could help by flagging function calls that allocate, though.
2021-04-06T13:54:27Z Shinmera: For sure. Being able to see which functions are pure would be nice.
2021-04-06T13:54:54Z Shinmera: But not even a DSL can help with that (you can't know what's going to allocate without help from the compiler)
2021-04-06T13:55:05Z Bike: yeah.
2021-04-06T13:55:13Z Nilby: I seem to remember there was a CL that compiled to non-GC'd C code.
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2021-04-06T13:57:06Z Nilby: and they reccommended just such restraint
2021-04-06T13:57:40Z Shinmera: One trick I've been making use of in Kandria recently is, since I know some things are going to run single-threaded, but I cannot stack-allocate certain complex objects, I can instead use load-time-value to create a local instance that'll be re-used. Certainly less handy and more dangerous than stack allocation, but it does the trick.
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2021-04-06T13:58:17Z Bike: there have been a couple times when i've been like "i know, i'll do the l-t-v trick" and then remembered other threads exist. very sad
2021-04-06T13:58:24Z Shinmera: Yep :(
2021-04-06T13:58:44Z Bike: takes me back to learning C and failing to understand static
2021-04-06T13:58:50Z Shinmera: Heh
2021-04-06T13:58:57Z mfiano: Shinmera: Interesting. Can you link to one part of your code that does that? I'd like to see it in context.
2021-04-06T13:59:49Z phoe: what is the issue with l-t-v in a multithreaded context? race conditions, or also something else?
2021-04-06T14:00:09Z Bike: well we're talking specifically about using a load-time-value object
2021-04-06T14:00:16Z Shinmera: if two threads access the same function at the same time they'll use the same instance and thrash it
2021-04-06T14:00:18Z Bike: there's only one, so if multiple threads try to use it at the same time, problems
2021-04-06T14:00:23Z semz: Nilby, I recall something like that as well, but iirc it had a supremely ungoogleable name like CL- or something...
2021-04-06T14:00:33Z Bike: same reason you can't use static in reentrant C functions
2021-04-06T14:00:41Z phoe: yes, so what I expected
2021-04-06T14:00:47Z Shinmera: mfiano: https://gitea.tymoon.eu/shinmera/kandria/src/branch/master/toolkit.lisp#L335 and tvec/tv+ things.
2021-04-06T14:01:15Z Shinmera: mfiano: Excuse gitea's shitty indentation
2021-04-06T14:01:32Z Shinmera: mfiano: For hit I know the object is not going to escape or be cached, so I can avoid allocating more than one instance.
2021-04-06T14:01:44Z Shinmera: mfiano: And for tvecs I know they're used as temporary value stores.
2021-04-06T14:02:16Z Shinmera: I could potentially stack-allocate the vecs, but as 3d-vectors is set up it can't do that most of the time.
2021-04-06T14:02:29Z Shinmera: (that's one of the things I'd like to rectify for v2)
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2021-04-06T14:03:34Z mfiano: AH I have recently start stack-allocating some vectors in my collision detection codes, and some lexical variables cannot be stack allocated because they call c2mop:s-i-a or something. Was trying to figure out what I could do about it
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2021-04-06T14:05:41Z mfiano: But I did make it more manageable. I had a OBB struct with like 20 slots, mostly all for mutating temp variables. It was a mess lol. Now there's only 5, with 2 of them being an unfortunate temp variable
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2021-04-06T14:10:27Z semz: Turns out I was thinking of CL_1 as defined by CLICC, but that does seem to have a GC, so probably a different project.
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2021-04-06T14:15:33Z beach: I define "dynamic language" as one with semantics defined by a suite of interactions.
2021-04-06T14:15:55Z beach: I use "interactive language" as a synonym.
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2021-04-06T14:18:33Z Josh_2: Whats the sbcl function to drop into the top level repl?
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2021-04-06T14:22:07Z Xach: Josh_2: toplevel-init (not an external symbol)
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2021-04-06T14:25:20Z Josh_2: Thanks
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2021-04-06T14:27:22Z jmercouris: anyone can think of a way of writing a function "string" -> unique number?
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2021-04-06T14:27:38Z mfiano: hash it
2021-04-06T14:27:43Z Josh_2: ^
2021-04-06T14:27:44Z jmercouris: hashes have collisions
2021-04-06T14:28:04Z phoe: so you want bignums
2021-04-06T14:28:20Z jmercouris: phoe: ?
2021-04-06T14:28:32Z phoe: you need bignums to encode arbitrary strings without collisions
2021-04-06T14:28:39Z jmercouris: I guess so
2021-04-06T14:28:57Z jmercouris: I would be considering each letter a number in base 26
2021-04-06T14:29:07Z jmercouris: in that kind of a straightforwards case
2021-04-06T14:29:10Z phoe: convert your string into a byte array, append the string's length to it, convert the result into an integer
2021-04-06T14:29:19Z jmercouris: hm, or that, that is much simpler
2021-04-06T14:29:20Z mfiano: (sxhash "foo") would probably be acceptable and not collide with 61 bits on SBCL
2021-04-06T14:29:35Z mfiano: 62*
2021-04-06T14:29:39Z jmercouris: let me start with the base problem actually
2021-04-06T14:29:43Z phoe: yes please
2021-04-06T14:29:47Z jmercouris: I want to make a mode, and represent it with a unique glyph in nyxt
2021-04-06T14:29:52Z jmercouris: I want to be able to do this automatically
2021-04-06T14:30:04Z phoe: mode, as in?
2021-04-06T14:30:11Z jmercouris: the modes the user has active
2021-04-06T14:30:12Z phoe: are we talking emacs-like modes?
2021-04-06T14:30:18Z phoe: major, minor modes, et cetera?
2021-04-06T14:30:22Z jmercouris: yes, like that
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2021-04-06T14:32:23Z phoe: my UX instincts are telling me that modes should provide some sort of taskbar-like icon that can then be displayed, but that's orthogonal to your issue
2021-04-06T14:32:39Z jmercouris: you are correct
2021-04-06T14:32:44Z jmercouris: there is a glyph slot that the user can set
2021-04-06T14:32:48Z jmercouris: however, when it is NOT set, what to show?
2021-04-06T14:33:07Z phoe: that's not really a #lisp question I think :D you can try to use the first letter of the mode, or something
2021-04-06T14:33:22Z jmercouris: well it is a #lisp question in the sense that I want to go from string -> unique glyph
2021-04-06T14:33:33Z phoe: and provide more information when the user mouseovers above it
2021-04-06T14:33:37Z jmercouris: glyph can be a unicode value
2021-04-06T14:34:16Z phoe: sxhash is likely going to be good enough for your use case then
2021-04-06T14:34:23Z jmercouris: OK, thanks
2021-04-06T14:34:34Z phoe: I don't think you're going to have modes at a scale where collisions become likely
2021-04-06T14:34:48Z phoe: (mostly because you won't have enough screen to fit all those mode glyphs at once)
2021-04-06T14:34:51Z jmercouris: probably not, just my pedantic CS self thinking about it 11
2021-04-06T14:35:16Z Nilby: Websites, e.g. github, google docs, do this with random semi-unique user icons.
2021-04-06T14:38:14Z phoe: and, honestly, I think that providing icons and falling back to first letters of each mode name is going to be much better than generating tiny semirandom icons that users will need to memorize anyway before being able to use them well enough
2021-04-06T14:38:28Z phoe: but that's already UX zone
2021-04-06T14:38:28Z jmercouris: I think you're right phoe
2021-04-06T14:38:30Z jmercouris: I will do that
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2021-04-06T14:39:04Z phoe: in the worst case the mode line will look like
2021-04-06T14:39:19Z phoe: "MmW🖊️" or something
2021-04-06T14:39:26Z jmercouris: lol, that would be something
2021-04-06T14:39:46Z phoe: and all I'm using there is three ASCII letters and one cursed unicode symbol
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2021-04-06T14:41:13Z jmercouris: lol yeah
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2021-04-06T14:45:46Z jackdaniel: some random mcclim hackery show off: http://turtleware.eu/static/paste/3337104a-showoff.webm
2021-04-06T14:46:09Z jackdaniel: what you see there is a normal clim application run in the browser (the hunchentoot acceptor is also a frame manager)
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2021-04-06T14:52:59Z alanz: jackdaniel, nice. Is there example code we can look at somewhere?
2021-04-06T14:55:28Z Josh_2: Well thats really cool jackdaniel
2021-04-06T14:55:32Z jackdaniel: not yet, but it is part of the manual for writing backends I'm working on
2021-04-06T14:55:40Z jackdaniel: so it will be public eventually
2021-04-06T14:55:56Z jackdaniel: (mind that no js is involved so far)
2021-04-06T14:56:09Z Josh_2: The less the better imo
2021-04-06T14:58:55Z Josh_2: I have dumped my lisp image and I'm now connecting to it using sly-connect. How do I get all the output to go through my connected repl instead of into the terminal that I started the image in?
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2021-04-06T15:06:17Z jmercouris: Josh_2: i don’t believe you can, when you start sly the *inferior lisp* buffer is always pushing some messages
2021-04-06T15:06:35Z jmercouris: I think the problem is in the case of CFFI that is writing to stdout for example
2021-04-06T15:06:43Z jmercouris: Though I’m not entirely sure of the conditions
2021-04-06T15:07:10Z jackdaniel: Josh_2: try (setf (symbol-value '*standard-output*) your-sly-stream)
2021-04-06T15:07:41Z jmercouris: I don’t know if that will capture all messages
2021-04-06T15:07:53Z jmercouris: I’ve had C code evade that I believe
2021-04-06T15:08:54Z jackdaniel: I thought that we talk about common lisp
2021-04-06T15:09:52Z Josh_2: How do I find my sly stream?
2021-04-06T15:10:02Z jackdaniel: even when you start your lisp from emacs other processes that write to stdout will still write to stdout
2021-04-06T15:10:28Z jackdaniel: Josh_2: type (defparameter cl-user::*my-stream* *standard-output*) in sly repl
2021-04-06T15:12:44Z Josh_2: well
2021-04-06T15:13:23Z Josh_2: maybe I should just deal with the output being in my terminal
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2021-04-06T15:38:04Z phoe: Bike: regarding the l-t-v trick, l-t-v CLHS page states that the object is treated as a literal; doesn't mutating it invoke UB then?
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2021-04-06T15:39:29Z mfiano: I asked Shinmera the same thing
2021-04-06T15:42:22Z Shinmera: It sure does, but there's no incentive for it to not just work the way you expect it to.
2021-04-06T15:43:19Z mfiano: I think we all know we can't assume programmers to make sound decisions all the time. I can't guarantee an implementation won't be doing something funky, or my current implementation some time in the future.
2021-04-06T15:43:37Z jackdaniel: (pushnew :lean-and-mean *features*)
2021-04-06T15:44:41Z phoe: I guess an implementation could go ahead and define that behavior as possible and useful, then
2021-04-06T15:44:49Z Shinmera: sure.
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2021-04-06T15:46:50Z Nilby: But there's an incentive as an implementation developer to have popular software run on your implementation.
2021-04-06T15:46:52Z mfiano: Might want to wrap that pattern up in a macro just to have a search point and a single place for a big comment.
2021-04-06T15:46:56Z _death: if I understand it correctly, the compiler treats it as a literal object, but it's still modifiable by the user, as long as read-only is nil, as the preceding paragraph says
2021-04-06T15:48:26Z phoe: yes, I can see that it is being confusing; generally, "modifiable data" and "literal object" should be disjoint sets
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2021-04-06T15:51:02Z phoe: and the specification is not very clear here
2021-04-06T15:51:20Z _death: literal here means it's "referenced directly in a program rather than being computed by the program".. I think it means the form is only evaluated once
2021-04-06T15:53:20Z Nilby: I think the Lisp aesthetic is to no have unmodifiable that exists.
2021-04-06T15:53:39Z Nilby: unmodifiable data that is
2021-04-06T15:55:01Z Shinmera: My favourite lisp aesthetic is being fast in the face of adversity. This includes having unmodifiable things at times.
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2021-04-06T15:59:12Z pjb: Shinmera: in general, compiled code is immutable.
2021-04-06T15:59:15Z Nilby: If it doesn't exist because it's optimized away, or it's existence is temporary, sure, but if you break in the debugger at the just right place, it's modifiable. I can accept things intentionally protected by memory barriers and such. It's also happens to be the aesthetic of assembly code.
2021-04-06T15:59:16Z pjb: :-)
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2021-04-06T15:59:49Z pjb: Nilby: code is data ;-)
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2021-04-06T16:00:33Z Nilby: I agree and I think compiled code should be modifiable.
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2021-04-06T16:05:00Z _death: (setf (aref (code-vector #'sleep) 0) #xC3)
2021-04-06T16:05:13Z _death: makes your programs faster :)
2021-04-06T16:05:31Z Nilby: _death: Exactly! or even (setf (aref (disassemble #'cdr) 23) '(:pop :rsp))
2021-04-06T16:05:34Z jmercouris: how can my object have two slots of the same name???
2021-04-06T16:05:46Z jmercouris: http://dpaste.com/775L8DQAP
2021-04-06T16:05:50Z jmercouris: Glyph appears TWICE!
2021-04-06T16:05:51Z pjb: Nilby: it is not necessary.  Non-controlled systems want to put the code in read-only memory to avoid exploits.  Controlled systems want to prevent write access (and sometimes even read-access) to the code to ensure control and security.  And in lisp we can always modify the source sexp and recompile.
2021-04-06T16:06:14Z phoe: jmercouris: what packages are those slot names from
2021-04-06T16:06:30Z jmercouris: damnit you are right phoe
2021-04-06T16:06:30Z epony: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return-oriented_programming challenges that  Apr06 1559<pjb> Shinmera: in general, compiled code is immutable.
2021-04-06T16:06:44Z pjb: jmercouris: (setf *print-readably* t) (inspect x)?
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2021-04-06T16:07:16Z pjb: epony: of course, there are nice hacks possible when you can modify the code.  Also, instruction caches want to avoid it.
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2021-04-06T16:07:39Z pjb: jmercouris: export and use it, or qualify it in the subclass.
2021-04-06T16:07:56Z jmercouris: I'll export it
2021-04-06T16:08:31Z pjb: jmercouris: note: you could perhaps use :default-initargs to avoid having to redefine the slot in the subclass?
2021-04-06T16:08:52Z jmercouris: pjb: cannot do, the whole point is the slot /must/ redefine the value
2021-04-06T16:09:00Z jmercouris: s/slot/subclass
2021-04-06T16:09:11Z pjb: With an :initarg, you can specify a value for a slot.
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2021-04-06T16:09:22Z jmercouris: I am aware of that, but it must change PER subclass
2021-04-06T16:09:22Z pjb: With a :defaultinitarg you can do that by default for all make-instance calls.
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2021-04-06T16:09:27Z pjb: +-
2021-04-06T16:09:37Z jmercouris: 1
2021-04-06T16:09:38Z jmercouris: indeed
2021-04-06T16:09:43Z phoe: superclass: (:default-initargs :foo (alexandria:required-argument :foo))
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2021-04-06T16:09:50Z phoe: subclass: (:default-initargs :foo 42)
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2021-04-06T16:18:43Z Nilby: pjb: Yes, I agree it's not necessary, but still useful. I think it's basically game over for security if something can control Lisp code, but in some way beach's idea of top level first class environments is like having virtual lisp machines. I would like to think it could include hardware level protection, so that memory address and compiled code could still be safely modifiable.
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2021-04-06T16:21:46Z _death: Nilby: you can do it today with implementation and platform specific means
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2021-04-06T16:26:06Z pjb: Nilby: it is a choice: either you allow modifiable code, and then you need a system like unix with separate addressing spaces and crashes, or you prevent modifiable code, and even you prevent generating code vectors by random code, only  compilers authorized by the system are allowed to produce code that is guaranteed not to crash, and then you can avoid the separate addressing space and use capabilities, environments and have bet
2021-04-06T16:26:07Z pjb: security.
2021-04-06T16:28:56Z Nilby: I guess I'm imagining I could have both, without crashing an O/S layer.
2021-04-06T16:33:38Z Nilby: I guess I'll have to wait for a portable with-lisp-vm that doesn't do something horrible like linux containers.
2021-04-06T16:36:18Z _death: namespaces/cgroups are kinda simple though.. just need a lisp library to wrap'em
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2021-04-06T16:40:49Z Nilby: _death: I don't feel like cgroups are simple: ls -R /sys/fs/cgroup/ | wc -l => over 6000!
2021-04-06T16:41:27Z Nilby: er, actually over 14k!
2021-04-06T16:43:23Z Nilby: Please forgive me for typing unix code in #lisp :(
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2021-04-06T16:57:16Z Bike: phoe: if read-only-p is false, modifying load-time-value objects is fine
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2021-04-06T16:57:23Z Bike: "it must be considered to be potentially modifiable data"
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2021-04-06T16:58:52Z Bike: it's not ub
2021-04-06T16:59:33Z _death: Nilby: do they all have ad-hoc semantics?
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2021-04-06T17:05:21Z _death: Nilby: I guess a good reason to stay away from it is the constant churning though
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2021-04-06T17:05:33Z Nilby: _death: I don't know, but looking linux/Documentation/cgroup*/*.txt I got disgusted by the complexity and stupidity of the formatted file based API
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2021-04-06T17:10:51Z Nilby: I was actually considering how to wrap such a thing in Lisp without using foreign code above the kernel.
2021-04-06T17:11:26Z _death: I think at one point I looked at launching a qemu instance and communicating with it using zeromq
2021-04-06T17:13:26Z Nilby: That's much more sensible, but I have some dumb obsession with idea that I want 100% lisp code above the kernel.
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2021-04-06T17:15:40Z semz: there are dumber obsessions
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2021-04-06T17:47:34Z phoe: Bike: yes, I assume that this passage takes precedence over clhs 3.7.1
2021-04-06T17:49:24Z Bike: ah, i suppose. "treated like a literal object at runtime" is a bit vague. i think it's mainly just emphasizing that the form is only evaluated once.
2021-04-06T17:49:43Z phoe: yes
2021-04-06T17:49:49Z phoe: that's the part that confused me
2021-04-06T17:50:42Z Bike: ltv is one of those things that didn't really make any sense to me until i implemented it
2021-04-06T17:50:54Z Bike: and even now it can confuse me at times
2021-04-06T17:51:10Z phoe: l-t-v is a thing that didn't make sense to me until I actually needed to use it
2021-04-06T17:51:54Z Bike: the really involved part is all the cycle detection and ordering of load time evaluations
2021-04-06T17:52:09Z Bike: it's kind of a lot of work for the compiler writer but programmers don't usually think about it
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2021-04-06T17:54:36Z pjb: There's still ordering freedom left to the compiler.  the order of the l-t-v forms is not specified IIRC.
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2021-04-06T18:01:44Z _death: Bike: after thinking about it more, it's not just that it's evaluated once, but also that the object is returned as-is, not, say, copied (according to some definition of copied)
2021-04-06T18:03:23Z Bike: in some way making it non-eq? i suppose so
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2021-04-06T20:52:50Z mfiano: Posted in #sbcl also, but does anyone know of a workaround to the compiler notes on SBCL for this simple function? I've been trying everything I can think of: https://gist.github.com/mfiano/66c0c1897c190e68438d405f604ddb20
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2021-04-06T20:58:49Z _death: (values (floor (floor x) y)) ?
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2021-04-06T21:00:25Z _death: I'm not sure you want to compute that..
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2021-04-06T21:02:47Z mfiano: _death: I'm trying to rasterize a 3D cuboid volume to see which cubed grid cells it touches. Here is the real code https://gist.github.com/mfiano/eba07f48c2285a47fa0685713a1f2495
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2021-04-06T21:04:13Z mfiano: Those #'map's are there because min1/max1 will be inputs to the function later on, and are required to be (simple-array single-float (3))
2021-04-06T21:04:39Z mfiano: This test code should be printing lists of fixnums, not floats
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2021-04-06T21:09:17Z mfiano: Also what did you mean by "not sure"?
2021-04-06T21:10:45Z _death: in your first gist, you have assert -1.0 < x < 1.0 so result will always be -1 or 0
2021-04-06T21:11:44Z mfiano: Yes, the actual domain doesn't matter...just has to be small enough for the result to be fixnumable
2021-04-06T21:12:36Z mfiano: So is it the case that the 2-arity floor is just missing a transform, or is there a better reason it didn't work?
2021-04-06T21:17:06Z mfiano: It seems if I assert with (assert (< #.(float (expt -10f0 9) 1f0) x #.(float (expt 10f0 18) 1f0))) your version works. Curious why such the unsymmetrical domain
2021-04-06T21:18:02Z mfiano: increasing lower or upper more fails
2021-04-06T21:19:39Z _death: well, (truly-the (unsigned-byte 32) (floor (the (single-float 0.0 65535.0) x) cell-size)) in the second gist (after fixing malformed syntax) seems to give no note
2021-04-06T21:19:50Z _death: (and it should actually be 65536.0)
2021-04-06T21:20:08Z mfiano: or in base 2, exponents 19 and 61 respectively
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2021-04-06T21:22:13Z mfiano: You are right
2021-04-06T21:22:34Z mfiano: I don't use truly-the though.
2021-04-06T21:22:56Z _death: not sure how to do without it
2021-04-06T21:23:16Z mfiano: I demonstrated above
2021-04-06T21:23:20Z mfiano: It's ugly but it works
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2021-04-06T21:25:18Z mfiano: (lambda (x) (declare ((u:f32 #.(expt -2f0 19) #.(expt 2f0 61)) x)) (floor (floor x) cell-size))
2021-04-06T21:25:31Z mfiano: u:f32 being just a short alias for single-float
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2021-04-06T21:32:22Z mfiano: Yeah i'm not sure what SBCL is doing. Should be 24 bits of precision and 128 bits of range
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2021-04-06T21:36:37Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: why are there constant page loads in your demo? why not utilize ajax?
2021-04-06T21:36:53Z jmercouris: is the goal to run mcclim in a browser that does not support javascript?
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2021-04-06T21:39:02Z mfiano: he's probably using broadway
2021-04-06T21:39:21Z mfiano: or something
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2021-04-06T21:41:51Z jmercouris: that would make sense
2021-04-06T21:42:00Z jmercouris: I was also thinking maybe a webgl surface or something earlier
2021-04-06T21:42:31Z Krystof: mfiano: I think the issue is that your divisor range includes 0
2021-04-06T21:43:07Z mfiano: Krystof: I don't understand
2021-04-06T21:43:21Z mfiano: Also it looks like the lower bound is restricted to _odd_ exponents <= 19
2021-04-06T21:43:44Z Krystof: your type for y in (floor x y) includes 0
2021-04-06T21:43:53Z mfiano: ohhh
2021-04-06T21:44:00Z scymtym: mfiano: no, the broadway backend is separate
2021-04-06T21:44:31Z Krystof: I think SBCL is not being very smart about the fact that it includes 0, but you should probably exclude 0 if you can
2021-04-06T21:44:45Z mfiano: certainly
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2021-04-06T21:44:51Z mfiano: let me try that and see what i get
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2021-04-06T21:45:09Z Krystof: (defun baz (x y)
2021-04-06T21:45:09Z Krystof:   (declare (type (single-float (-1.0) (1.0)) x) (type (and (integer (0)) (unsigned-byte 8)) y)
2021-04-06T21:45:09Z Krystof:            (optimize speed))
2021-04-06T21:45:09Z Krystof:   (floor x y))
2021-04-06T21:46:24Z mfiano: Seems to still have the weird unbalanced domain
2021-04-06T21:46:43Z mfiano: odd exponents <= 19 for low end, and any <= 61 for high
2021-04-06T21:46:53Z scymtym: seems like a good time to plug https://github.com/scymtym/sbcl-ir-visualizer again. it shows derived types of intermediate results among other things
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2021-04-06T21:48:47Z jmercouris: scymtym: what can we do with this?
2021-04-06T21:48:59Z jmercouris: performance optimization?
2021-04-06T21:49:03Z jmercouris: SBCL development?
2021-04-06T21:49:44Z scymtym: jmercouris: both. you can type in a lambda expression and investigate how SBCL processes it under different optimization policies
2021-04-06T21:49:47Z jmercouris: It is a cool project, don't get me wrong, just wondering what intent you had when developing it
2021-04-06T21:50:02Z jmercouris: I see
2021-04-06T21:50:23Z phoe: I'd place $5 that the intent was introspection into the SBCL compilation and IR generation process
2021-04-06T21:50:43Z phoe: better to work with things when they're laid out spatially
2021-04-06T21:50:50Z jmercouris: phoe: that was the outcome, was that the intent?
2021-04-06T21:51:02Z phoe: s/place/bet/
2021-04-06T21:51:12Z phoe: let's see if I lose my five bucks
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2021-04-06T21:52:39Z Krystof: mfiano: I don't understand what you mean by unbalanced domain.  Example?
2021-04-06T21:52:50Z mfiano: Krystof: One moment
2021-04-06T21:53:05Z scymtym: phoe is right since he described what the program does and i made it do that intentionally. but i'm not sure where this discussion is supposed to go
2021-04-06T21:54:43Z mfiano: Krystof: Shall we take this to #sbcl?
2021-04-06T21:55:10Z Krystof: maybe to a mailing list; I'm about to go to bed
2021-04-06T21:55:53Z Krystof: or you can (trace :encapsulate nil sb-c::floor-derive-type-optimizer sb-c::floor-quotient-bound) to find what's not giving you the right answer
2021-04-06T21:56:11Z Krystof: SBCL is a bit conservative about its lower bound to floor in the presence of floating point arithmetic
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2021-04-07T03:04:17Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-04-07T04:59:08Z alandipert: hi beach o/
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2021-04-07T05:00:01Z beach: alandipert: Hey!  What's up?
2021-04-07T05:02:07Z alandipert: not a whole lot, you?
2021-04-07T05:03:39Z beach: Same here.  I am working on implementing my idea for a register-allocation algorithm.  And, as usual, I got the abstractions wrong the first few times, so more work than the idea should have generated.
2021-04-07T05:04:11Z beach: I think I must find a way to delegate the implementation of my ideas.
2021-04-07T05:04:41Z beach: So far, I have had more ideas per time unit than I have time to implement, so there is a fairly large backlog.
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2021-04-07T05:10:47Z alandipert: ah i know what you mean. i'm perpetually in the same boat with my various (and less impressive) projects
2021-04-07T05:11:46Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: the reason is because the goal of this proof of concept wasn't to have reload-less page - I didn't need javascript yet
2021-04-07T05:12:09Z jackdaniel: mfiano: there are no dependencies outside of cl the world (except for hand-written css file)
2021-04-07T05:12:54Z jackdaniel: the final thing will have three types of frame handlers: static (get/post), ajax-based for one-way updates, and a dynamic one with websockets
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2021-04-07T05:22:12Z beach: alandipert: But you work for a private company.  Usually, in that world you can convince someone to invest money if the idea is a good one, and then you can hire someone to do it.  No?
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2021-04-07T05:26:57Z beach: alandipert: That's one problem I have with academia.  What is considered a good idea, and thus subject to funding, is a complicated set of considerations like nation-wide or union-wide "strategies", and (above all) fads.
2021-04-07T05:26:59Z alandipert: well, i'm freelance currently and so have clients with disparate needs, so for my longer term and more conceptual bets, i'm the investor
2021-04-07T05:27:11Z beach: Oh, I see.
2021-04-07T05:29:12Z beach: I think I have another problem with my ideas.  It might be possible at this point to start some crowdfunding effort for my projects, but I don't know how to find people who are both available and qualified.
2021-04-07T05:29:35Z alandipert: yes, i have enough friends and family in academia to be acutely aware of how difficult it can be to inhabit
2021-04-07T05:29:56Z moon-child: beach: I don't think industry is worse than academia in that respect.  I daresay industry usually involves a more perverse (if consistent) set of incentives
2021-04-07T05:30:20Z beach: moon-child: That's my point, yes.
2021-04-07T05:30:43Z alandipert: i find industry incomparable to academic, but i've personally spent little time in academia, and understand there are many variables
2021-04-07T05:30:44Z beach: I would have to gather enough funding to convince a qualified person to quit the current dayjob, and that is very unlikely to happen.
2021-04-07T05:30:59Z moon-child: beach: err, I meant to say, I don't think industry is better than academia in that respect
2021-04-07T05:31:06Z beach: Oh!
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2021-04-07T05:32:48Z moon-child: (although, I don't have personal experience with academia.  So I may be mistaken.  Grass is greener and all that)
2021-04-07T05:33:49Z beach: I have worked both in industry and academia, though mostly in academia.  But you may be right, my memory of industry may no longer be accurate.
2021-04-07T05:34:32Z alandipert: beach perhaps you could gather enough funding to quit your own current dayjob?
2021-04-07T05:34:49Z beach: That would be very very stupid.
2021-04-07T05:35:19Z beach: 1.  I have 10 months to retirement.  2. My dayjob allows me to work full time on my projects already.
2021-04-07T05:36:02Z alandipert: ah. clearly your best bet is to never retire :->
2021-04-07T05:36:48Z beach: That is unfortunately not an option.  French law makes it impossible to continue after this date.
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2021-04-07T05:38:39Z beach: What we need is another J. C. R. Licklider.
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2021-04-07T05:39:40Z alandipert: regarding the scarcity of qualified help, you might consider how to market the project to those outside of the lisp community (although i understand at least with regard to paper abstracts, you're averse to that, and for good reasons)
2021-04-07T05:40:44Z beach: What would be the advantage?  It would require some significant training to get those people to be of any use, no?
2021-04-07T05:42:41Z alandipert: well, there are vastly more programmers outside lisp than inside. and i posit good/experienced outside people usually learn lisp quickly once interested, and can have enough experience to appreciate its advantages in a way that neophytes cannot
2021-04-07T05:43:01Z alandipert: the important part being, "once interested"
2021-04-07T05:43:10Z beach: Yes, I see.
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2021-04-07T05:50:29Z Nilby: I think it's hard to get availible and highly qualified Lisp programmers to do what you want without the coercion of employment. I think there's quite a numer who live in post-scarcity and are available, but would need a mighty big carrot.
2021-04-07T05:51:08Z beach: alandipert: I am not averse to that.  I just have no idea how to make such a thing happen.
2021-04-07T05:52:00Z beach: Nilby: I suspect that even with employment, it would be hard to get them to do what I want. :)
2021-04-07T05:53:11Z Nilby: Yes. Quite.
2021-04-07T05:54:39Z Nilby: I think the old Lisp companies somehow had a magic mixture of employment coercion and shared goals and belief in the work.
2021-04-07T05:55:06Z Nilby: And a bunch of already qualified very talented people.
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2021-04-07T05:56:31Z White_Flame: and a mixture of government contractor money
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2021-04-07T05:58:23Z Nilby: White_Flame: Sadly, yes, that's what seemed to make it possible and then pulled the rug out.
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2021-04-07T06:07:46Z pjb: beach: well, in the current paradigm, the way to make qualified and talented people do your bid is by having a lot of money. You can have a lot of money by earning it, eg. starting a web software company like Zip2, selling it, with the money, starting up an online bank like Paypal, selling it, and with the money start up a company to build and sell EV cars, another to build rockets to go to Mars, and another to dig tunnels to run 
2021-04-07T06:07:46Z pjb: cars and dig habitats on Mars.
2021-04-07T06:08:33Z pjb: beach: an alternative paradigm is proposed by Bernard Frio (quite intersting), but unfortunately, we're far from achieving such a system... (even if, as he argues, we already had half of it).
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2021-04-07T06:08:49Z pjb: beach: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Friot
2021-04-07T06:09:47Z pjb: beach: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3g-A25BE2w&list=PLysam5vv8eGfHsIU3iQtRgnALGs0fdD1g
2021-04-07T06:10:24Z pjb: beach: note that this gives you a hint on how to gather work force around your project: don't aim at newbies, but at retired programmers!
2021-04-07T06:10:39Z pjb: Which in the case of a lisp project, is not a bad idea after all…
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2021-04-07T06:10:47Z beach: Sure.
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2021-04-07T06:11:24Z beach: They would be amply qualified, and they don't need to spend all day making money to feed the family.
2021-04-07T06:11:49Z pjb: The quantity of retired programmers should increase a lot in the next years…
2021-04-07T06:12:39Z pjb: (or you can also win the lotto, and just start up a lisp company).
2021-04-07T06:15:28Z beach: First time I hear of Barnard Friot.  I'll certainly read more.
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2021-04-07T06:20:44Z beach: Anyway, my current strategy is to do the implementation work myself, hoping to get to a native executable SICL system not too far in the future.  Once that is done, I hope to see more interest in helping out by people who are both qualified and available.  I have no idea whether this strategy will work, of course.
2021-04-07T06:23:51Z Nilby: I'm hoping that there may some kind of convergence in the Lisp community when some of the various projects that people have been working on for years might be able to used a more cohesive whole.
2021-04-07T06:25:40Z beach: Nilby: That was one of the things I hoped to achieve with the SICL project.  I secretly hoped to create high-quality "modules" that would then be adopted by existing Common Lisp implementations.  I now think that hope was unfounded.
2021-04-07T06:28:04Z no-defun-allowed: Looking further in time when we may ask the same questions for CLOSOS (though there is surely a similar pressure for beach's more immediate projects), I am aware that programmers around my age are also often fed up with current compilers, operating systems and so on, but discussing the proposed solutions and projects leads to "knee-jerk" reactions #lisp participants may be familiar with.
2021-04-07T06:28:48Z Nilby: I'm not sure it's unfounded, it's might just take longer, since implementations necessarily have to be quite conservative.
2021-04-07T06:29:00Z beach: One thing that has a chance of success though is McCLIM.  It is maintained and developed by a bunch of good people.  It is quickly becoming the best choice for Common Lisp GUI code, as opposed to FFI solutions.
2021-04-07T06:29:15Z no-defun-allowed: For the most part, I believe there are people with time, but funding them and encouraging them to act on their complaints are very hard. (Though, of course, not everyone wants to write a compiler or operating system or whatever else, and that's fine too.)
2021-04-07T06:29:25Z beach: Nilby: I hope you are right.
2021-04-07T06:30:18Z beach: no-defun-allowed: Yes, it is very hard to get the message across to people with a long-term investment in more traditional technology.
2021-04-07T06:31:12Z no-defun-allowed: Instead what I see is people saying self-deprecating things like "computers were a mistake" and generally just sticking to small changes. The latter would be rational, but both make me sad.
2021-04-07T06:31:51Z beach: How strange.
2021-04-07T06:32:54Z beach: What is very surprising to me is that people write end-user applications in a language such as C++.  I am thinking of things like MuseScore.
2021-04-07T06:33:08Z beach: I guess Firefox would qualify as well.
2021-04-07T06:33:34Z no-defun-allowed: beach: I'm not sure how long "a long-term investment" is, but they don't have much in the way of investments. I suppose they are used to some technologies, but they are often hobbyists with lots of spare time, and some groups iterate through many libraries and frameworks and whatnot relatively quickly.
2021-04-07T06:33:57Z beach: I am less surprised about things like LLVM.  They probably try to target existing system programmers.
2021-04-07T06:34:49Z beach: no-defun-allowed: I see.  That make their attitude more puzzling.
2021-04-07T06:36:24Z beach: Though, even with LLVM, it would probably have been easier to write it in some high-level language with automatic memory management, and then provide bindings for C and C++, rather than the other way around.
2021-04-07T06:36:29Z no-defun-allowed: (My last attempt to change anyone's attitude was to be equally as mindlessly optimistic, trying to say that computers and programming could, in fact, be very fun. But the "mindless" part of that plan is a problem, when it is not the norm.)
2021-04-07T06:37:06Z beach: no-defun-allowed: "last" as in "final" or as in "latest"?
2021-04-07T06:37:55Z no-defun-allowed: "latest"
2021-04-07T06:43:18Z no-defun-allowed: I should try something else, but right now I am taking a break from that project (and any substantial programming work).
2021-04-07T06:44:26Z Nilby: I have to intersperse serious work with fun work or else I might get the same feeling.
2021-04-07T06:47:41Z no-defun-allowed: On the contrary, I think programming requires a creative process, and if one is able to follow their creative process without too many restraints, then it is probably fun.
2021-04-07T06:48:03Z beach: I know of only one way that (sometimes) works to convert people, and that does not come across as proselytizing, namely to try to do good work that in some way improves on the existing state of things.
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2021-04-07T06:56:06Z no-defun-allowed: Though, if everyone I was referring to had acted on what they were saying, it is likely most of them are not going to work on the projects we are looking for help with. But I would be happy if they did just about anything.
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2021-04-07T08:00:10Z splittist: I think the progress on SICL has been nothing short of amazing. Particularly when the offshoots - eclector etc. - are taken into account. And the talent it has attracted is impressive.
2021-04-07T08:01:55Z beach: Absolutely right.  The independent modules have become impressive thanks to the qualified people who agreed to develop and maintain them.
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2021-04-07T08:02:52Z beach: Not all those modules are excellent (yet).  But I am convinced they will be.
2021-04-07T08:03:42Z beach: In my discussions, I was referring mainly to the SICL-specific code.
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2021-04-07T08:18:21Z hypercube: do you guys think Common Lisp will make a return to industry?
2021-04-07T08:19:30Z beach: Hard to say, given the sorry state of the software industry.
2021-04-07T08:19:33Z splittist: hypercube: I don't think it ever left. Perhaps it hasn't grown at the same rate as other (newer) languages, but there are pockets of lisp we rarely hear about. (Perhaps because it's in law enforcement and intelligence.)
2021-04-07T08:21:04Z splittist: When LAMBDA for Excel drops later this year, and joins the fairly recent LET, we can claim lisp IS the language of industry (:
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2021-04-07T08:23:03Z hypercube: im pretty new to common lisp and got into it mainly through taking a scheme course at school, but im surprised that programming isnt done that way more
2021-04-07T08:23:39Z Nilby: splittist: for printfcl (printf "%+0.ld % .0d %+0.0ld" 0 0 0) is not entierly valid, but seems to differ from the C version.
2021-04-07T08:24:46Z beach: hypercube: It shouldn't surprise you if you know how programmers are trained and chosen, and how little management knows about software development in general.
2021-04-07T08:25:19Z beach: Then again, maybe you don't know that.
2021-04-07T08:25:57Z lukego: Hey what's the appropriate time to split code into a separate package? I only have a few KLOC of code and I'm feeling the urge to break this up into separate logical packages but I also have a feeling that's possibly just unproductive busy-work
2021-04-07T08:26:11Z hypercube: i guess i realize that students arent exposed to this paradigm at all in academia
2021-04-07T08:27:07Z splittist: Nilby: thanks - I'll have look.
2021-04-07T08:27:13Z beach: lukego: I break my code up into "modules", where each module resides in a directory, has an ASDF system definition, and a component (file) containing a package definition.
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2021-04-07T08:28:17Z beach: lukego: I extract a module whenever I see a reasonable (usually CLOS-based) protocol emerging.
2021-04-07T08:28:27Z lukego: beach: thanks, I was looking for a reference example of that style, and see now SICL repo is such
2021-04-07T08:28:40Z beach: Indeed.
2021-04-07T08:28:47Z beach: There are plenty of examples in there.
2021-04-07T08:28:50Z no-defun-allowed: hypercube: It makes sense to me, given whoever runs the industry wants perhaps the opposite of people doing whatever they want (for the most part).
2021-04-07T08:29:01Z Nilby: splittist: I wrote a printf in a blub language and had some old test file around which I think I got from cygwin.
2021-04-07T08:29:13Z lukego: yeah I have the vague feeling that having everything in the same package is making it too easy to have murky interfaces that I am not thinking out
2021-04-07T08:29:53Z hypercube: no-defun-allowed: true
2021-04-07T08:30:26Z hypercube: do you have any recommendations if i want to get serious about common lisp programming? any good books or courses?
2021-04-07T08:30:35Z beach: lukego: Yes, that's the risk.  Plus, now when we have package-local nicknames, having a package for each module is not a problem.
2021-04-07T08:30:53Z beach: minion: Please tell hypercube about PCL.
2021-04-07T08:30:54Z minion: hypercube: look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2021-04-07T08:31:16Z lukego: hypercube: I think that Common Lisp is used in industry, mostly quietly in small groups, and seems likely to continue that way. maybe it's healthy that the amount of CL used in industry is driven by the number of geeks learning CL and looking for opportunities to work with it. better than e.g. if Gartner told the S&P500 they all need to adopt Lisp and the mess that would create.
2021-04-07T08:31:47Z beach: lukego: Well put!
2021-04-07T08:32:03Z hypercube: thank you beach!
2021-04-07T08:32:12Z beach: Pleasure.
2021-04-07T08:32:16Z beach: minion: Thanks!
2021-04-07T08:32:16Z minion: np
2021-04-07T08:32:36Z Nilby: I'm afraid industry would want to turn CL into Clojure or something.
2021-04-07T08:32:49Z splittist: Nilby: more tests always welcome!
2021-04-07T08:33:02Z moon-child: Nilby: let them eat cake!
2021-04-07T08:33:05Z hypercube: lukego: i suppose that's write
2021-04-07T08:33:08Z hypercube: right**
2021-04-07T08:33:52Z Nilby: moon-child: Yes. And stay out of my imaginary palace.
2021-04-07T08:34:13Z contrapunctus: .o("Get off of my cloud!")
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2021-04-07T08:40:51Z Nilby: splittist: here's some https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2376#2376
2021-04-07T08:41:25Z Nilby: splittist: They should be able to be read by your test code.
2021-04-07T08:41:59Z splittist: Nilby: awesome!
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2021-04-07T08:45:41Z Shinmera: lukego: In my mind files are for the maintainer's organisational structure, and packages are for the user's organisational structure. If you don't have users, then it doesn't matter much, but as soon as you see a part that could stand on its own, it can be useful to extract it.
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2021-04-07T08:49:35Z lukego: I'm mostly asking myself whether multiple package namespaces will be a plus or a minus e.g. using symbols like BGA-NAME verses BGA:NAME verses NAME. I'm a CLOS n00b here and it's already bothering me having the same symbol for unrelated slots of different classes e.g. NAME or ID.
2021-04-07T08:49:42Z splittist: With a sufficiently smart editing environment (tm) (and perhaps a sufficiently smart programmer...) files should be a backing detail, and the programmer should be looking at whichever 'view' of the code makes sense for the task at hand (e.g. methods grouped by function or by specialised argument)
2021-04-07T08:50:08Z Shinmera: lukego: I wouldn't let that bother me. It's fine.
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2021-04-07T08:50:32Z beach: splittist: Indeed.  Some people are working on such an environment.
2021-04-07T08:50:46Z Shinmera: lukego: But if you want to be stricter about it, as beach mentioned, design your protocols first, and separate them out into a package per protocol.
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2021-04-07T08:51:18Z lukego: splittist: but now you're describing the environment that I switched /away/ from to work in Lisp :-) i.e. GToolkit in Pharo Smalltalk
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2021-04-07T08:53:29Z splittist: lukego: heh
2021-04-07T08:53:38Z lukego: splittist: but I'm not really in that school of thought -- I'm more into embracing the limitations of the file-based representation e.g. as a means of putting a narrative order onto code that is lost when you slice and dice it up
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2021-04-07T08:54:23Z Nilby: After using Pharo I appreciate files more.
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2021-04-07T08:54:37Z splittist: lukego: fair enough. War and Peace v. Zork
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2021-04-07T08:55:44Z Nilby: "narrative" is a good way to put it
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2021-04-07T08:57:08Z lukego: also as an old-school DEFSTRUCT kind of Lisp hacker it bugs me a bit with CLOS - and indeed with Smalltalk - that `M-.' doesn't hop you straight to the code you want but rather makes you scroll through to the relevant method even though that's usually painfully obvious to you as a programmer. but for better or worse I'm CLOS'ing this project
2021-04-07T08:57:27Z lukego: Maybe that copy of AMOP that I ordered a month ago will turn up one day and then I'll share everyone else's enthusiasm for this stuff :)
2021-04-07T09:00:38Z Nilby: Maybe we need a version of `M-.' that does compute-applicable-methods.
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2021-04-07T09:02:59Z Shinmera: it would need to know the type of the arguments, which is usually not available because inference around CLOS is weak.
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2021-04-07T09:04:23Z lukego: I'd like to have a DWIM version of `M-.' that jumps to some dynamic but predictable place e.g. the most recent method actually invoked from the callsite where I pressed `C-u M-.'
2021-04-07T09:04:31Z scymtym: you would also need COMPUTE-APPLICABLE-METHODS-USING-TYPES
2021-04-07T09:11:40Z scymtym: the DREI common lisp syntax has some interesting ideas about semantics-aware editing regarding completion and "undefining": https://github.com/McCLIM/McCLIM/blob/master/Libraries/Drei/lisp-syntax-swine.lisp#L434 (too bad that the more abstract parts are mixed up with the editing functionality)
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2021-04-07T09:14:59Z lukego: (actually it could be an interesting form of "JIT" if SBCL would compile two copies of a function, one with lots of instrumentation for debugging and editing and so on and one without, and then enable the fast one only when it's actually "running hot")
2021-04-07T09:15:51Z beach: lukego: http://metamodular.com/SICL/sicl-debugging.pdf
2021-04-07T09:15:56Z lukego: Or maybe I'm dreaming of the Bad Old SBCL that had an interpreter that it used sometimes
2021-04-07T09:16:20Z lukego: ha!
2021-04-07T09:16:56Z lukego: I think I've asked this before but it's way too early to do real development in a SICL-hosted-on-SBCL, right?
2021-04-07T09:17:07Z no-defun-allowed: A JIT would still instrument in order to know when to give up on an optimisation, and a good one would still preserve semantics of the slow code.
2021-04-07T09:17:30Z beach: lukego: Yes, that will not be the goal of that environment.
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2021-04-07T09:19:10Z lukego: no-defun-allowed: I meant without the various downsides of a highly dynamic JIT i.e. you still compile the same statically optimized machine code ahead of time but you also have a slow/instrumented version that you can swap in whenever you like e.g. to say "the next time we run that function let's log how each method invocation is resolved and store that for reference by an M-. command"
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2021-04-07T09:19:35Z lukego: beach: SICL is more about the long game of having a complete environment unto itself right?
2021-04-07T09:19:52Z beach: lukego: As opposed to what?
2021-04-07T09:20:47Z lukego: hosted inside another Lisp and used together e.g. SICL frontend over SBCL backend
2021-04-07T09:21:08Z beach: Oh, yes, definitely a complete environment.
2021-04-07T09:22:27Z lukego: (aside: it's remarkable how much instrumentation you can put into machine code on modern out-of-order CPUs without having much impact on performance e.g. conditional branches to hooks that are speculated away by the CPU)
2021-04-07T09:23:36Z lukego: I need to start reading SBCL internals so that my ideas can be less uninformed
2021-04-07T09:24:03Z lukego: beach: SICL sounds great but as a humble practitioner I'm not sure how to connect it with anything I'm doing
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2021-04-07T09:34:37Z h4ck3r9696: I have a problem with usocket: sometimes, when I try to use wait-for-input, it throws an exception: "couldn't read from #<SB-SYS:FD-STREAM for "socket 192.168.0.46:4444, peer: 192.168.0.27:35932" {1007AA9A43}>:   Connection reset by peer [Condition of type SB-INT:SIMPLE-STREAM-ERROR]". I don't think this is normal, but if it is, how can I fix this?
2021-04-07T09:36:43Z Shinmera: It means your connection was terminated. You "fix" it by either somehow having internet that never breaks, or handling the error and establishing a new connection.
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2021-04-07T09:39:14Z h4ck3r9696: I see. I should try to reconnect to every peer, then.
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2021-04-07T09:44:46Z beach: lukego: Right, it is not meant for you (at the moment).  Once the environment is in working condition, I hope you will see some nice features.
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2021-04-07T10:15:32Z splittist realises he's had Harbison & Steele on his shelf all along; proceeds to schedule printfcl rewrite
2021-04-07T10:25:05Z splittist: Nilby: that should be fixed. Thanks for the report and the tests!
2021-04-07T10:25:17Z hhdave: ikrabbe (or ikrabbe|2): I noticed over on #clim you were talking about using CL for devops. I'm doing that these days using https://github.com/Virtual-Insurance-Products/cl-sysop (which I wrote). I handled the executing commands on remote systems bit - it can bounce over several systems via SSH (also uses zlogin for executing things in SmartOS (solaris) zones). It handles all the shell quoting.
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2021-04-07T10:30:43Z Nilby: splittist: You're welcome. Thanks for making it.
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2021-04-07T10:45:18Z ikrabbe: hhdave: Thanks for the note. I first transfer the sequence of commands send to a system into a list. I scan this list with a recursive function. That is a bit more complex, but far more flexible, as I searched a general solution for a common problem. The quoting is done by the structure of the list.
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2021-04-07T10:55:45Z ask6155: hello
2021-04-07T10:56:48Z ask6155: is there a function which opens up lists?
2021-04-07T10:57:05Z no-defun-allowed: Opens up?
2021-04-07T10:57:55Z jmercouris: maybe flattens? what do you mean exactly?
2021-04-07T10:58:00Z ask6155: like (open '(x y)) will return (x y)
2021-04-07T10:58:03Z ask6155: yeah flatten
2021-04-07T10:58:15Z jmercouris: alexandria:flatten
2021-04-07T10:58:38Z ask6155: is there nothing built-in?
2021-04-07T10:58:42Z jmercouris: no
2021-04-07T10:58:48Z Nilby: '(x y) is (x y)
2021-04-07T10:58:52Z jmercouris: perhaps you don't mean flatten though
2021-04-07T10:59:03Z jmercouris: because as Nilby pointed out, those expressions are equivalent
2021-04-07T10:59:05Z hhdave: ikrabbe: oh right. In my system I have a method which makes a command for a certain host which consists of a comamnd name and a list of arguments. I'd be interested to see what you come up with. I think there are other implementations of similar things. I've built up a system for declarative devops using CLOS.
2021-04-07T10:59:11Z jmercouris: (quote (x y)) -> (x y)
2021-04-07T11:00:46Z ask6155: a function takes a list, how do I return that list?
2021-04-07T11:01:59Z ask6155: actually bad question
2021-04-07T11:02:25Z contrapunctus: ask6155: what are you trying to do?
2021-04-07T11:02:27Z ask6155: I want to return a list with the items in the list x plus some more items at the end
2021-04-07T11:02:43Z ask6155: in one list with no sublists
2021-04-07T11:02:44Z contrapunctus: ask6155: append
2021-04-07T11:05:45Z no-defun-allowed: Huh? '(x y) and (x y) are not equivalent. The former evaluates to the latter though.
2021-04-07T11:05:49Z ikrabbe: or `(,@some-list ,an-element ,@the-elements-of-another-list)
2021-04-07T11:06:42Z Nilby: ask6155: Just be aware that the last argument to append must be a list e.g. (append '(1 2) (list 3)) => (1 2 3)
2021-04-07T11:09:01Z ask6155: thanks append works
2021-04-07T11:12:15Z no-defun-allowed: APPEND returns an improper list when the last argument is not a list.
2021-04-07T11:12:34Z no-defun-allowed: Interesting advice from #lisp today.
2021-04-07T11:14:04Z ask6155: I'm using common-lisp and in append I had to make all arguments lists like this '(x) I cannot use 'x it gives an error 'x needs to be a list. I have 3 args and x is the first
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2021-04-07T11:15:08Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, the other arguments must be lists though.
2021-04-07T11:16:06Z ask6155: do all arguments need to be lists?
2021-04-07T11:16:45Z no-defun-allowed: If you have a list bound to X, then the call should look like (append x (list other elements here))
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2021-04-07T11:18:08Z ask6155: ok I getit
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2021-04-07T11:19:51Z no-defun-allowed: 'x and x are not equivalent under evaluation, but I suppose reality is not being communicated well when someone who writes A LARGE POPULAR LISP APPLICATION is telling people that sort of nonsense.
2021-04-07T11:20:02Z no-defun-allowed: Whew, that's my shouting for the day.
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2021-04-07T11:21:27Z ask6155: i dont remember any popular lisp apps
2021-04-07T11:21:34Z no-defun-allowed: ikrabbe's suggestion to use quasiquotation would also work, e.g. `(,@x 1 2 3)
2021-04-07T11:21:55Z ask6155: i've not learned that yet
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2021-04-07T11:22:13Z no-defun-allowed: Note that 1, 2 and 3 there are not evaluated - well, append would work fine for now.
2021-04-07T11:23:38Z Nilby: If someone can succeed despite my technically wrong advice, then they might have a chance with the harder stuff.
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2021-04-07T11:25:12Z lukego: speaking of things having to be lists I have a function (defun listify (x) (if (listp x) x (list x))) and was surprised not to immediately see it already existing in CL / alexandria / serapeum unless I missed it?
2021-04-07T11:25:28Z no-defun-allowed: alexandria:ensure-list or something like that?
2021-04-07T11:25:53Z no-defun-allowed: (alexandria:ensure-list 'x) ⇒ (X)
2021-04-07T11:26:15Z lukego: no-defun-allowed: yes! fool that I am, I was looking for LISTS in the alexandria docs ToC and totally overlooked CONSES
2021-04-07T11:26:50Z no-defun-allowed: Nilby: The qualifier "technically" isn't necessary; that is absolutely confusing advice.
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2021-04-07T11:35:05Z no-defun-allowed: And, from my point of view, progress was made in part because I had to correct you and jmercouris, and I would prefer to not have to do that.
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2021-04-07T12:02:56Z lukego: are you chastising people for the quality of the free help that they are offering in good faith to strangers on the internet? that's harsh :)
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2021-04-07T12:24:48Z ikrabbe: not when they lead people in the wrong direction, though the critic was a bit strong, for a little quote :)
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2021-04-07T12:28:43Z ikrabbe: ask6155: it took myself a good amount of time, to realize that append can be replace, especially in situations, where the result is not known: (apply #'append '(a-list) (return a few lists, to be appended)) is far more complex, than `(,@a-list ,@(return a few lists, to be appended))
2021-04-07T12:28:57Z rodriga: has anybody here ever worked in a Lisp startup?  or have any connections to a Lisp startup or "internships"?
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2021-04-07T12:29:53Z ikrabbe: ask6155: actually I learned that while trying to understand onLisp
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2021-04-07T12:38:26Z mfiano: Whenever I see #'append in my code, I consider it a red flag and I stop and think very carefully whether it can be expressed in a more efficient manner.
2021-04-07T12:38:57Z mfiano: Though I am normally writing high performance code where that thinking is required.
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2021-04-07T12:49:00Z ikrabbe: As you first learn about quasiquote as "the somehow used macro definition leader", it is replaced by append when you begin your list juggling.
2021-04-07T12:51:17Z mfiano: "quasiquote" is a Schemism
2021-04-07T12:51:24Z mfiano: We call that "Backquote"
2021-04-07T12:51:41Z no-defun-allowed: Eh, I call it quasiquotation.
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2021-04-07T12:51:46Z Bike: we do call it quasiquote sometimes
2021-04-07T12:51:57Z no-defun-allowed: So does e.g. the library fare-quasiquote
2021-04-07T12:52:31Z Bike: also eclector. also the clhs suggests copying scheme. so it's fine
2021-04-07T12:53:20Z mfiano: Fair enough. It can be confusing to someone trying to reference the bible is all.
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2021-04-07T12:59:32Z edgar-rft quasiquotes the ten commandments
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2021-04-07T13:13:12Z jcowan: edgar-rft: And what parts of them do you provide as commatose variables?
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2021-04-07T13:15:34Z ikrabbe: I think quasiquote is a quote good word, to express the function of the backquote character (at least far better than "the somehow used macro definition leader")
2021-04-07T13:16:26Z lukego: rodriga: I've worked in a Lisp startup and have a new embryo-phase Lisp startup now. what are you wondering?
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2021-04-07T13:22:46Z beach: lukego: Probably whether you propose employment or internships.
2021-04-07T13:22:57Z ikrabbe: mfiano: I just wikipedia'ed the word and found that quasiquote is actually a semantic concept of quotation, that matches our usage very well.
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2021-04-07T13:25:47Z ikrabbe: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/quotation/#CornQuasQuot :D There are more modes to quotation, we might be able to adapt ;)
2021-04-07T13:25:58Z lukego: I guess that if one is looking for a lisp job/internship that list of Lisp companies is a good place to look. I only saw this for the first time this week. https://github.com/azzamsa/awesome-lisp-companies
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2021-04-07T13:28:13Z mfiano: ikrabbe: It is the same concept. My point was that it is not a defined term in the Common Lisp standard. It was borrowed from Scheme to mean the same thing as an existing term in our standard.
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2021-04-07T13:40:30Z jcowan: It's also used in Bourne shell terminology:  '...' is quotation, "..." is quasiquotation
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2021-04-07T13:42:12Z jmercouris: no-defun-allowed: pretty sure if one form evaluates to another they are equivalent...
2021-04-07T13:42:19Z Xach: if you are uncomfortable with all the mysterious unquoting rules, it's queasyquotation
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2021-04-07T13:46:45Z lukego: where is the "like" button in irc...
2021-04-07T13:46:47Z beach: jmercouris: Not by any reasonable definition of "equivalent".
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2021-04-07T13:50:07Z beach: jmercouris: There is nothing wrong with the relation "evaluates to".  It is reasonably well defined in Common Lisp.
2021-04-07T13:51:26Z seabass[m]: Hello!
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2021-04-07T13:51:38Z beach: Hello seabass[m].
2021-04-07T13:52:02Z seabass[m]: I've got a JSON file that I'd like to turn into constants for Common Lisp
2021-04-07T13:52:32Z seabass[m]: Is there a way to do this at compile time with macros?
2021-04-07T13:53:07Z beach: Why would you use macros rather than functions?
2021-04-07T13:53:24Z seabass[m]: I was under the impression that it was macros that ran at compile time, rather than functions
2021-04-07T13:53:37Z seabass[m]: But if functions do the job, then that's also great! :)
2021-04-07T13:55:15Z beach: You can do anything at compile time with (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) ...)
2021-04-07T13:55:16Z seabass[m]: I'd really appreciate any code examples of this
2021-04-07T13:55:43Z seabass[m]: ooh, nice - so every CL compiler also has an internal intepreter?
2021-04-07T13:56:13Z beach: No.  Most modern Common Lisp systems compile on the fly, so there is no interpreter present.
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2021-04-07T13:57:02Z seabass[m]: wow, even better
2021-04-07T13:57:16Z seabass[m]: Lisp never ceases to amaze me :)
2021-04-07T13:57:29Z seabass[m]: ...neither does the Lisp community, BTW ;)
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2021-04-07T13:57:37Z Xach: beach: doug k had a very interesting example of how adding an interpreter to SBCL made parallel compilation faster
2021-04-07T13:58:10Z beach: Xach: Interesting!
2021-04-07T13:58:36Z seabass[m]: Xach, and here you are
2021-04-07T13:58:55Z seabass[m]: did you know that your blurb is at the top of http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ ?
2021-04-07T13:59:13Z seabass[m]: I didn't expect to meet you this quickly upon joining the channel, lol :)
2021-04-07T13:59:15Z aeth: I don't doubt that you could do everything as a function but... this really does seem like a place where macros are more straightforward. Read/parse file at macroexpansion time, generate DEFCONSTANTs. The only issue is that macros can be evaluated more than once (and SBCL often evaluates them twice), so side-effects (including reading a file, I guess? it would happen twice) are discouraged.
2021-04-07T13:59:23Z Xach: beach: basically, if you have serial dependencies A, B, C, interpreting A and B with an interpreter only to provide the required compile-time side-effects of the code allowed C to be compiled before A or B is compiled.
2021-04-07T13:59:50Z Xach: beach: of course, this requires a complex and fast interpreter optimized for that purpose...not a "traditional" interpreter that helps with debugging or macroexpansion etc
2021-04-07T13:59:52Z lukego: Xach: interpreter is making a comeback in sbcl? any link on that?
2021-04-07T13:59:58Z seabass[m]: aeth, I guess I could read the file into a variable with a function
2021-04-07T14:00:07Z seabass[m]: and then convert them into constants with macros?
2021-04-07T14:00:09Z Xach: lukego: this is from many years ago, not new, but i feel it is not well-understood
2021-04-07T14:00:29Z beach: Xach: Makes sense.
2021-04-07T14:01:11Z beach: aeth: Entirely possible.  Since I don't understand the problem statement, I was merely asking a question.
2021-04-07T14:01:28Z aeth: seabass[m]: even simpler than that, you can just check to see if the constants already exist, maybe?
2021-04-07T14:01:56Z seabass[m]: aeth, sorry what do you mean? This is a particular set of data specific to my program
2021-04-07T14:02:03Z seabass[m]: It's not a constant like Pi or anything
2021-04-07T14:03:02Z seabass[m]: By using constants I can avoid this huge JSON file being parsed every invocation, and also make the binary 'portable' by not needing a /usr/share dir
2021-04-07T14:03:16Z lukego gets some popcorn, has never really grokked the intersection between compile time evaluation and macro definition
2021-04-07T14:03:54Z Xach: lukego: when the interpreter was being developed (a long time ago), i thought it would really help for interactive debugging, but it's really just to avoid the overhead of the smart compiler generating nice code.
2021-04-07T14:04:11Z Xach: (slowly)
2021-04-07T14:05:10Z lukego: *nod* think of this any time I run CCL and it all feels so blazingly fast
2021-04-07T14:05:15Z aeth: seabass[m]: If you're using DEFCONSTANT it will be an error to redefine it on recompile. Two issues. First, it can run multiple times (wasting the later efforts assuming that the two definitions match). Second, if the file changes it will just error on recompile.
2021-04-07T14:05:52Z aeth: seabass[m]: The easiest workaround would just be to use a global, which at that point can just be done at the first run (assuming that it's a program or a framework, and not a library with many entry points)
2021-04-07T14:05:58Z lukego: aside: edebug for emacs has wonderful user experience for interactive stepper-style debugging, based on a metacircular interpreter afaik
2021-04-07T14:06:19Z seabass[m]: aeth, Hmm, that's interesting
2021-04-07T14:06:25Z Xach: lukego: allegro and lispworks are really fast too. it's interesting to see the kind of mindset that develops around many (most?) users of free CLs thinking SBCL is the only way to go and the best at everything
2021-04-07T14:06:31Z seabass[m]: Maybe I should give you an overview of what I'm trying to achieve more generally
2021-04-07T14:06:41Z Xach: (i love and use SBCL, but it is not the best at everything)
2021-04-07T14:06:57Z seabass[m]: Essentially, I've got this big JSON file. The JSON file is updated every few months
2021-04-07T14:07:36Z seabass[m]: the end user would need to download my source code, and then download any version of the JSON file into the source directory
2021-04-07T14:07:54Z seabass[m]: Then compile, and boom all the constants are there and the program never needs to read a JSON file again
2021-04-07T14:08:32Z seabass[m]: If I manually wrote the constants in the Lisp source, I'd need to change them manually at every release of the JSON data
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2021-04-07T14:16:30Z lukego: seabass[m]: I guess it's two related problems. One, how to load the data at compile time, perhaps with EVAL-WHEN; two, what to do with that data after it's loaded, e.g. keep it in a list that you lookup from, or translate it into Lisp-level compiler constants via macros.
2021-04-07T14:17:04Z seabass[m]: lukego, yes I think that's a good way of putting it
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2021-04-07T14:20:28Z lukego: I really don't have this stuff swapped in but I am also curious about what is the idiomatic solution :). Maybe it depends on the way in which you're compiling your application e.g. into compiled modules (fasls) verses as a snapshot (image)?
2021-04-07T14:20:47Z seabass[m]: now you really are going over my head :)
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2021-04-07T14:22:56Z lukego: I hope that I'm not side-tracking you here but one relevant feature that Lisp has is being able to snapshot the whole Lisp process into a file -- basically a coredump -- and then run that again later. it's like a suspend-to-disk and all of the data you have loaded is included. I'm not sure if/how this applies to your situation though
2021-04-07T14:23:50Z seabass[m]: hmm that sounds cools but probably a bit advanced for me as well as my target userbase
2021-04-07T14:23:54Z seabass[m]: *cool
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2021-04-07T14:25:10Z lukego: I don't quite follow what the interface for your end-users will be. are they getting a stand-alone binary from you? or are they really getting source + json? and you plan to ship those on different schedules e.g. new lisp daily but new json monthly?
2021-04-07T14:25:26Z seabass[m]: Hmm, OK I'll try to expain better
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2021-04-07T14:25:34Z seabass[m]: Most users will simply get a binary release from me
2021-04-07T14:25:51Z seabass[m]: The releases that I make will always use the latest combination of JSON + Lisp code
2021-04-07T14:26:14Z seabass[m]: But if my users want to use a different version of the JSON, they can download them seperately and create that binary themselves
2021-04-07T14:27:17Z lukego: Maybe consider building on Xach's buildapp? https://www.xach.com/lisp/buildapp/ iiuc that's a simple way to create stand-alone executables that can easily load both code and data during build.
2021-04-07T14:27:48Z Xach: i like and use buildapp but investing time in learning how asdf's binary building works is probably better
2021-04-07T14:28:00Z seabass[m]: Ideally they shouldn't need to know any Lisp - just run make
2021-04-07T14:28:00Z Xach: from what i've seen, it's pretty easy
2021-04-07T14:28:02Z beach: seabass[m]: Maybe if you remove JSON from the discussion, and just let us know what the parser for the JSON file would return.
2021-04-07T14:28:35Z beach: seabass[m]: And then, tell us what you want that result to turn into, in terms of Common Lisp forms.
2021-04-07T14:28:47Z lukego: oh I didn't know that asdf had that function. neat.
2021-04-07T14:29:33Z seabass[m]: beach, it would return a list, containing a list of two keywords and their values each
2021-04-07T14:29:40Z Xach: i couldn't figure out cl-launch, so i made buildapp, which is simpler. then asdf was updated to be a little simpler than buildapp (i think)
2021-04-07T14:29:52Z beach: seabass[m]: Can you give an example?
2021-04-07T14:31:08Z seabass[m]: ((:a "string" :b "another") (:a "yet more string" :b "yet another"))
2021-04-07T14:31:16Z seabass[m]: Hmm maybe I should try to explain that in Algol-like pseudocode
2021-04-07T14:31:17Z seabass[m]: even with a hint of python :)
2021-04-07T14:31:52Z beach: And what would you like your Common Lisp code to look like as a result of that example?
2021-04-07T14:32:12Z beach: I mean, it can't be (defconstant :a "string") etc.
2021-04-07T14:32:29Z seabass[m]: erm, why not?
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2021-04-07T14:33:08Z beach: seabass[m]: Because you are not allowed to define Common Lisp keywords as constants.
2021-04-07T14:33:20Z seabass[m]: oh, right. Hmm.
2021-04-07T14:33:23Z beach: Plus, there are two :A and two :B so that would be a conflict.
2021-04-07T14:33:42Z seabass[m]: So can I define a constant list of keywords?
2021-04-07T14:34:19Z seabass[m]: equivilento `list[n].a` and `list[n].b` in Python, say
2021-04-07T14:34:25Z beach: Sure.  But I don't see anything in your example that would suggest a Common Lisp name that could be used in a DEFCONSTANT form.
2021-04-07T14:34:30Z seabass[m]: haha, I just invented a nice word there
2021-04-07T14:34:40Z seabass[m]: 'equivilento' :D
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2021-04-07T14:35:13Z beach: seabass[m]: It would be even better if you explain what you want without reference to programming languages that some people here might not master.
2021-04-07T14:35:37Z seabass[m]: beach, fair enough, but I'll have to think longer to get it into 'lispy' formats :)
2021-04-07T14:36:39Z beach: seabass[m]: So neither the keywords not the string literals can be used as the name of a Common Lisp constant.  Therefore, you need to tell us what name you would like for your example.
2021-04-07T14:37:26Z beach: seabass[m]: Then, you need to explain what you had in mind when you thought it was possible to use keywords as names of constants, but then your example has duplicates, which would mean defining a constant in two different ways.
2021-04-07T14:37:41Z seabass[m]: hmm, yeah
2021-04-07T14:37:57Z seabass[m]: I guess I'd like to have one constant that is a list, where each item has keyworded values
2021-04-07T14:38:22Z beach: Oh, like a property list (plist)?
2021-04-07T14:38:30Z seabass[m]: ahah! That maybe it
2021-04-07T14:38:32Z seabass[m] looks up plists
2021-04-07T14:39:11Z seabass[m]: that sounds exactly like what I'm looking for
2021-04-07T14:39:27Z beach: Still, the duplication will be a problem.  It doesn't make sense to have a plist with duplicate keys.
2021-04-07T14:39:42Z lukego: I have interpreted seabass[m]'s questions totally differently and made an example which may or may not be confusing and irrelevant :) https://gist.github.com/lukego/44ee65e9d2ed9587c91338d237f27fe4
2021-04-07T14:39:49Z seabass[m]: So, is there a way of populating such a plist in a loop (which can ignore duplicate keys), and then 'set that it stone' for the binary?
2021-04-07T14:39:57Z beach: Or, it could make sense, but you need to explain what it would mean.
2021-04-07T14:40:49Z beach: seabass[m]: That's trivial.  If you have the list in your example, then just turn it into (defconstant +mumble+ '((:a "string" :b ...) (:a ...)))
2021-04-07T14:41:36Z lukego: This example runs standalone.lisp that creates the executable ./standalone. This executable includes the contents of the file /etc/protocols at the time that the executable was created. Running ./standalone will print the contents of /etc/protocols -- not by opening that file but by "remembering" the value that was compiled in.
2021-04-07T14:41:41Z seabass[m]: great! So I populate a variable, and then defconstant it into a constant, all within a 'at compile time' section?
2021-04-07T14:41:54Z seabass[m]: lukego, that's really nifty
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2021-04-07T14:42:17Z seabass[m]: That's pretty much what I wanted do to; can that be compiled into a binary and still work?
2021-04-07T14:42:34Z seabass[m]: as opposed to --load
2021-04-07T14:42:36Z beach: seabass[m]: Or perhaps (defconstant +mumble+ '((:a "string") (:b "...") (:a ...) (:b ...))) or even (defconstant +mumble+ '(:a "string" :b "..." :a .... :b ...))
2021-04-07T14:42:42Z beach: But you need to decide which one.
2021-04-07T14:42:44Z lukego: well in my interpretation the defconstant business is just a distraction. all you need is to have the data passed from compile time to runtime. the details of how you parse it, how you store it in variables, etc, are up to you and straightforward once you grok the bit above
2021-04-07T14:43:05Z lukego: seabass[m]: Yes. The --load will have the side-effect of creating ./standalone which is an executable.
2021-04-07T14:43:17Z seabass[m]: that's neat
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2021-04-07T14:43:26Z seabass[m]: Thank you very much for your help here!
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2021-04-07T14:44:21Z lukego: The way it does this is basically to "core dump" into that file -- i.e. suspend the Lisp process to disk such that it can be resumed in a new process -- but that's not really a scary thing in Lisp, and it's handy because all your state is preserved e.g. values you have loaded from disk or libraries you have loaded etc (but not open files/sockets/etc of course that die with the process and don't persist)
2021-04-07T14:44:22Z lukego: you're welcome
2021-04-07T14:44:45Z seabass[m]: that's certainly something that'd be scary in C
2021-04-07T14:45:41Z lukego: Maybe if you take this approach you could just parse the JSON data at runtime if that makes it easier to think about. You can still have the JSON data loaded at runtime and stored in the executable -- but it's probably not necessary to translate it into Lisp code since if you have it in a Lisp string you can just parse it into a Lisp data structure at any time.
2021-04-07T14:45:41Z seabass[m]: There's also something I'd like to ask for the benefit of the user
2021-04-07T14:46:34Z seabass[m]: There's a portion of the JSON that'll never be needed for my program, so I think it probably makes sense just to save the data I need
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2021-04-07T14:49:04Z lukego: So what you have here is really a general suspend/resume facility. You can decide what data you want to have in the process at the time you do the suspend. In this example you have the raw contents of the file stored in a variable, but you could instead e.g. pass that to a function that extracts only the part you need, or compresses it, or parses it and stores the parse tree, or translates it into lisp code, etc.
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2021-04-07T14:50:13Z lukego: Since the suspended Lisp process includes the whole Lisp compiler you should also be able "at runtime" to load in new data and generate a new executable containing that instead.
2021-04-07T14:50:37Z seabass[m]: isn't that a little wasteful?
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2021-04-07T14:51:01Z seabass[m]: Compared to C, for instance, which only has the code that you wrote
2021-04-07T14:51:27Z lukego: So this is about half way between C and Docker.
2021-04-07T14:51:49Z seabass[m]: sorry, I don't know Docker :)
2021-04-07T14:52:18Z lukego: So basically it's very wasteful by the standards of the 1990s. By today's standards I'd call it borderline restrained.
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2021-04-07T14:52:34Z seabass[m]: that's a fair point :)
2021-04-07T14:53:07Z lukego: anyway, it's a starting point if you want to get up and running, quite possibly you'll find a better solution later if you want to reduce your file size etc.
2021-04-07T14:53:19Z seabass[m]: yeah, that's true
2021-04-07T14:53:30Z seabass[m]: Again, thank you :)
2021-04-07T14:53:57Z lukego: (maybe other people have better suggestions for you, I'm only taking the time now because it looked to me like you were getting side-tracked with thinking about how to represent JSON data as Lisp code, when it really seemed like your main problem was just embedding some data in your program)
2021-04-07T14:53:59Z lukego: welcome
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2021-04-07T14:54:22Z seabass[m]: yup, pretty much
2021-04-07T14:54:32Z seabass[m]: I have a tendency to go down those sort of side-tracks :)
2021-04-07T14:54:46Z shka_: hi all
2021-04-07T14:54:53Z lukego: Lisp will offer you plenty of possibiliites for that, don't worry.
2021-04-07T14:55:09Z seabass[m]: o/ shka_
2021-04-07T14:55:11Z shka_: i am looking for a really good example of pretty printing code
2021-04-07T14:55:22Z shka_: please, aid me
2021-04-07T14:55:47Z seabass[m]: hmm there's probably a good file or two in GNU Emacs for that
2021-04-07T14:56:05Z shka_: well, common lisp to be specific
2021-04-07T14:56:09Z seabass[m]: ah, OK
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2021-04-07T14:58:08Z seabass[m]: shka_, M-x find-function RET indent-line-to RET, just in case you're interested anyway :)
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2021-04-07T14:58:41Z shka_: seabass[m]: appreciated
2021-04-07T14:58:51Z seabass[m]: no problem :)
2021-04-07T14:59:09Z seabass[m]: shka_, do you use Emacs?
2021-04-07T14:59:39Z seabass[m]: It surely must be the best Lisp editor in existence
2021-04-07T14:59:57Z beach: Sadly, it is.
2021-04-07T15:00:03Z lukego: shka_: one example, https://www.researchgate.net/publication/242313131_Using_the_new_common_Lisp_pretty_printer
2021-04-07T15:00:03Z shka_: heh
2021-04-07T15:00:15Z shka_: beach: that's exactly what i wanted to type
2021-04-07T15:00:26Z shka_: anyway, emacs is not even bad
2021-04-07T15:00:27Z beach: Sorry I beat you to it. :)
2021-04-07T15:00:30Z seabass[m]: beach, it's fine as long as you have long fingers and small keyboards :D
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2021-04-07T15:00:44Z shka_: but we could have something so much better
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2021-04-07T15:00:49Z mason: seabass[m]: Bah, foot peddles do away with all of that.
2021-04-07T15:01:00Z seabass[m]: mason, ooh, you actually have one?
2021-04-07T15:01:08Z seabass[m]: Does it plug into the mic jack or USB?
2021-04-07T15:01:11Z mason: seabass[m]: No, but I want one so I can be a better Emacs user.
2021-04-07T15:01:16Z beach: seabass[m]: No, it is not fine.  It doesn't have a good idea of what the code in the buffer represents, so it often gets indentation wrong, and it confuses non-forms and forms.
2021-04-07T15:01:17Z seabass[m]: ah, OK :)
2021-04-07T15:01:22Z beach: seabass[m]: etc, etc,.
2021-04-07T15:01:40Z lukego: decades of Emacs use and no foot pedals, then I took up soldering and suddenly I have five under my desk right now :)
2021-04-07T15:01:58Z seabass[m]: beach, that's funny, I've never had any issues with that. But then again, I'm not too advanced at Lisp right now, as you can see :)
2021-04-07T15:02:02Z mason: beach: What's a good editor? Or isn't there one?
2021-04-07T15:02:20Z seabass[m]: lol! that's funny lukego
2021-04-07T15:02:21Z beach: mason: Like I said, I agree that "sadly" Emacs is the best.
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2021-04-07T15:02:40Z seabass[m]: I'll ask you then - is it audio jack or USB?
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2021-04-07T15:02:50Z seabass[m]: I guess you'd need some sort of uc for USB
2021-04-07T15:02:54Z beach: seabass[m]: That's the very problem.  People seem content with this situation.
2021-04-07T15:03:26Z mason: seabass[m]: have you read through https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/FootSwitches ?
2021-04-07T15:03:42Z shka_: beach: i think that emacs has a few extra benefits for people who program in multiple languages
2021-04-07T15:03:42Z seabass[m]: nope, I haven't actually considered one for myself
2021-04-07T15:04:14Z beach: shka_: Yes, but I was answering: <seabass[m]> It surely must be the best Lisp editor in existence
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2021-04-07T15:04:15Z mason: seabass[m]: I think it's probably worthwhile since Emacs, despite protestations, is in fact modal. "I've got the control key down" is a mode.
2021-04-07T15:04:31Z shka_: righ
2021-04-07T15:04:32Z shka_: t
2021-04-07T15:04:36Z seabass[m]: yes, I agree
2021-04-07T15:05:00Z mason: Really, having a control key on the floor is all the pedal I'd want.
2021-04-07T15:05:00Z seabass[m]: on a technical basis, of course, there's no difference
2021-04-07T15:05:12Z seabass[m]: And you could very easily remap non-control keys to anything else
2021-04-07T15:06:15Z seabass[m]: (global-set-key (kbd "a") 'execute-extended-command) or whatever
2021-04-07T15:06:20Z beach: lukego: I would like a keyboard with a much more narrow space bar, and I would like the extra space to be used for control and meta, one for each thumb.  I take it Japanese keyboards are like that, but for different reasons.
2021-04-07T15:06:37Z seabass[m]: beach, absolutely agree with you there
2021-04-07T15:07:03Z seabass[m]: The Japanese keyboards are themselves hyper-modal
2021-04-07T15:07:31Z lukego: beach: yeah. I always shop for the keyboard with the narrowest spacebar that I can. ironically it means wanting a Windows key. the best I can usually do it having Space flush with the left of C e.g. on my Thinkpad and Mac keyboards. Sometimes it comes out below X and then I get hand cramps reaching for Meta.
2021-04-07T15:07:39Z seabass[m]: the Chinese just gave up and use Pinyin :D
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2021-04-07T15:08:20Z lukego: though I only use my left hand for modifiers I think. pinky for control (capslock) and thumb for meta.
2021-04-07T15:08:27Z pjb: lukego: https://groupbuys.mechboards.co.uk/shop/hyper-7-keyboard-r3/  has a small space.
2021-04-07T15:08:53Z lukego: once upon a time I had my spacebar mapped to a Hyper key but I was in a bad place then and stopped escalating my keyboard hacks as the hand cramps started :)
2021-04-07T15:08:57Z seabass[m]: lukego, me too unless my left hand hurts, then I use my right hand for modifiers for a few hours
2021-04-07T15:09:02Z pjb: Actually two small space keys separated by a ⋅ key.
2021-04-07T15:09:17Z shka_: beach: i use redox keyboard, it has ctrl just under the thumb
2021-04-07T15:09:25Z lukego: interesting keyboard pjb!
2021-04-07T15:09:32Z beach: pjb: That looks good!
2021-04-07T15:09:35Z seabass[m]: pjb, wow that's a beautiful keyboard, but it sure is expensive
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2021-04-07T15:09:51Z shka_: on the standard keyboards, i used to remap caps lock to act as a ctrl
2021-04-07T15:10:03Z seabass[m]: My budget is more like USD$60
2021-04-07T15:10:08Z beach: shka_: Yes, but C-a becomes a bit hard to type.
2021-04-07T15:10:18Z shka_: and ctrl to act as escape
2021-04-07T15:10:19Z seabass[m]: shka_, on Colemak Caps Lock is backspace
2021-04-07T15:10:33Z shka_: which also makes some sense
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2021-04-07T15:10:47Z shka_: honestly, caps lock has no place on the modern keyboard imho
2021-04-07T15:10:47Z lukego: I have been gradually expanding my notion of what is a reasonable price for a keyboard as I keep on buying more and more cheap and crappy ones and wishing I'd been less stingy :)
2021-04-07T15:11:08Z lukego: but just using the thinkpad now, and Barrier to share the laptop keyboard/mouse with the desktop.
2021-04-07T15:11:14Z beach: pjb: That look like precisely what I desribed.
2021-04-07T15:11:19Z beach: described.
2021-04-07T15:11:38Z seabass[m]: lukego, I know one of the maintainers of Barrier btw
2021-04-07T15:11:54Z pjb: beach: unfortunately, out of stock. They may take orders for a possible future batch.
2021-04-07T15:11:58Z shka_: beach: you gonna need a rather large desk for this one :-)
2021-04-07T15:12:11Z seabass[m]: always grumbling because the GitHub project owner won't give push privs :D
2021-04-07T15:12:23Z lukego: seabass[m]: cool :) it's a great piece of software! though one day I must work out how to get it to auto-start on startup. each time I reboot one of my machines I end up fishing out a backup keyboard/mouse to manually start barrier with :). maybe I could just start it from the command-line, have to check that..
2021-04-07T15:12:43Z beach: pjb: Oh, too bad.
2021-04-07T15:13:05Z seabass[m]: lukego, you could ues an initrc/systemd unit maybe?
2021-04-07T15:13:08Z lukego: I suppose actually that barrier makes total sense as a text-based command line application, I wonder if it has such a mode, it's awkward to start in GUI mode since in principle I don't have a keyboard/mouse on the client machine
2021-04-07T15:13:17Z lukego: yeah, one day I'll finally do that...
2021-04-07T15:13:50Z seabass[m]: I don't use Barrier but I could knock up a systemd unit for you if you want
2021-04-07T15:14:31Z seabass[m]: I use this keyboard: https://www.ebay.com/p/74087856
2021-04-07T15:14:39Z seabass[m]: not in such yellowed state, I may add :D
2021-04-07T15:15:00Z lukego: old school :)
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2021-04-07T15:15:18Z seabass[m]: my father's first IBM-PC clone keyboard :)
2021-04-07T15:15:23Z lukego: thanks but I'm on NixOS so that'll be another whole kettle of fish to integrate the script into and I don't have the motivation just now :)
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2021-04-07T15:15:45Z seabass[m]: lukego, sure, I forgot that you used NixOS
2021-04-07T15:16:00Z seabass[m]: Even though it's plastered all over that code you displayed :D
2021-04-07T15:16:16Z lukego: I can't remember what sin I am atoning for by using NixOS but it's probably a whopper
2021-04-07T15:16:25Z seabass[m]: aw cute you call your laptop thinky
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2021-04-07T15:29:22Z lukego: Here's my latest abuse of unicode, this time because (required-argument) takes too much horizontal space:
2021-04-07T15:29:23Z lukego: (define-symbol-macro ⊥ (error "⊥"))
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2021-04-07T15:31:20Z phoe: required-argument takes an argument name, no?
2021-04-07T15:31:46Z lukego: optionally
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2021-04-07T15:31:55Z phoe: oh! I see
2021-04-07T15:32:17Z lukego: (defstruct foo (name ⊥ :type string)) ;; scratches an itch for me ...
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2021-04-07T15:40:18Z _death: it takes a name so that it can produce a better error message
2021-04-07T15:42:03Z lukego: yeah. I never give that name though because I'm always bothered about the verbosity.
2021-04-07T15:42:35Z lukego: (and because often the reason I'm using defstruct in the first place is because I couldn't stand the redundancy of defclass :))
2021-04-07T15:43:33Z lukego: maybe I should be using one of those easy-defclass macros.
2021-04-07T15:44:04Z lukego: but it's nice to let my hair down and allow myself to indulge some symbol/reader macros and funny syntax sometimes too.
2021-04-07T15:45:03Z _death: it's easy-defclass to those who know and love it.. for others it's "oh man, now I gotta learn another stupid defclass shortcut library to understand this form"
2021-04-07T15:45:39Z _death: that or "now I gotta macroexpand"
2021-04-07T15:46:00Z _death: the former is more likely if I also want to modify it
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2021-04-07T15:47:40Z lukego: yeah. I guess I've been struggling and failing to get the taste for CLOS for like twenty years now so a crutch might be helpful. but I do have AMOP on order.
2021-04-07T15:48:04Z _death: defclass is verbose, but it's a small price to pay
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2021-04-07T15:52:59Z lukego: I have made one apparent step forward by factoring slots out into mixins like (defclass indexed () ((index ...))) when I often use the same slots in various classes
2021-04-07T15:53:28Z lukego: (defclass foo (indexed banked sided) ()) saves a lot of text compared with entering the slots manually every time.
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2021-04-07T15:55:30Z beach: lukego: There is redundancy in DEFCLASS only if you don't care about modularity and consistent protocols.
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2021-04-07T15:56:34Z lukego: beach: so the Erik Naggums of the world keep telling me, but I don't believe it's as black and white as that.
2021-04-07T15:57:33Z beach: lukego: In practice, not every slot should have an :INITFORM, not every slot should have an :INITARG, not every slot should have a :READER, and not every slot should have a :WRITER.
2021-04-07T15:57:43Z jmercouris: lukego: we use hu.dwim.class star
2021-04-07T15:57:56Z beach: jmercouris: I am sorry to hear that.
2021-04-07T15:57:57Z lukego: to me it sounds like saying that Java class definitions are only verbose if you don't care about scope, mutability, and allocation policy. but that doesn't excuse typing "public static final ..." ten thousand times
2021-04-07T15:58:09Z jmercouris: lukego: it is in my opinion way better than just defclass by itself
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2021-04-07T15:59:17Z jmercouris: lukego: here is an example of us using it: https://github.com/atlas-engineer/nyxt/blob/master/source/blocker-mode.lisp
2021-04-07T15:59:35Z jmercouris: beach: I find it quite convenient :-)
2021-04-07T15:59:44Z jmercouris: I can use all of defclass when needed
2021-04-07T15:59:51Z lukego: jmercouris: thanks! I'll try joining you at the philistines table and see how I fit in :) but I am guessing that reading AMOP will change my idea of what is appropriate, for better or worse, and I don't know in what direction
2021-04-07T15:59:58Z jmercouris: Otherwise I use define-class
2021-04-07T16:00:08Z lukego: jmercouris: love your work btw :) have only recently found out about nyxt
2021-04-07T16:00:29Z jmercouris: lukego: thanks, that’s very kind of you to say
2021-04-07T16:00:37Z beach: jmercouris: Yes, it is no doubt quite convenient... if you don't care about modularity and consistent protocols, like I said.
2021-04-07T16:00:46Z lukego: beach: I'm often just creating internal data structures and not public interfaces. the way in other languages one might use a throw-away dictionary or tuple.
2021-04-07T16:00:51Z jmercouris: Sometimes I do, sometimes I don’t
2021-04-07T16:01:02Z jmercouris: It depends on whether I’m writing a library or an application
2021-04-07T16:01:15Z beach: Wow.
2021-04-07T16:02:54Z jmercouris: beach: you are a much more conservative programmer than me :-D
2021-04-07T16:02:55Z beach: lukego: Even for those, it pays off to think about what kind of options you want to give to MAKE-INSTANCE, what slots you want to be writable, etc.
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2021-04-07T16:03:47Z jmercouris: If Encapsulation is important, you’ll end up writing getters and setters anyways
2021-04-07T16:04:00Z beach: Er, what?
2021-04-07T16:04:39Z jmercouris: Talking about using class instances as a way to pass state around , instead of thinking about them as objects
2021-04-07T16:04:54Z beach: Don't tell me you write things like (defmethod get-stuff (x) (slot-value x 'stuff)).
2021-04-07T16:05:07Z jmercouris: beach: of course not 11
2021-04-07T16:05:16Z jmercouris: I’ll just add an accessor
2021-04-07T16:05:42Z jmercouris: I do write getters sometimes that have more logic than that though
2021-04-07T16:06:43Z beach: Those are known as "slot readers" and "slot writers", not "getters" "setters".
2021-04-07T16:07:00Z beach: And you can always write auxiliary methods on the corresponding generic functions.
2021-04-07T16:08:18Z beach: There is typically always a slot reader, but not always a slot writer on a slot.
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2021-04-07T16:08:44Z beach: ... independently of encapsulation issues.
2021-04-07T16:09:46Z beach: In particular, you may not want to use :ACCESSOR if you want client code to read the slot, but not write it.
2021-04-07T16:10:43Z beach: ... since the same symbol can be used both to read and write the slot then.
2021-04-07T16:10:49Z mfiano: I even go as far as to define a %-prefixed accessor in addition to a reader that is exported, rather than use slot-value for internal code, since it is often wanted to extend that protocol
2021-04-07T16:11:12Z beach: Exactly.
2021-04-07T16:11:26Z beach: It doesn't have to be prefixed as long as it is not exported.
2021-04-07T16:11:37Z mfiano: Right. It's just a convention
2021-04-07T16:11:48Z jackdaniel: if the reader is exported, then (setf reader) is kinda exported too
2021-04-07T16:11:49Z beach: I sometimes do (%name :reader name :writer (setf other-name))
2021-04-07T16:11:50Z mfiano: One that is recognizxed by others at that, but mostly personal :)
2021-04-07T16:11:57Z mfiano: err recognized*
2021-04-07T16:12:00Z beach: jackdaniel: Exactly my point, yes.
2021-04-07T16:12:22Z mfiano: Yes, that was what I was implying.
2021-04-07T16:12:49Z beach: But sometimes I just use REINITIALIZE-INSTANCE internally.
2021-04-07T16:12:57Z mfiano: If I don't want users to write, I'll export a symbol used for :reader, and give myself a non-exported symbol for :accessor/:writer
2021-04-07T16:13:10Z beach: Right.
2021-04-07T16:13:22Z jackdaniel: howerver given that you bother to write down how to use your system and you do not mention the writer (setf foo), then if someone uses it then it is violating the library protocol
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2021-04-07T16:14:02Z jackdaniel: so it is still kind of internal
2021-04-07T16:14:16Z lukego: This may shock you guys but I sometimes even pass around data as *lists of atoms* :)
2021-04-07T16:14:18Z beach: jackdaniel: Sure.  But it is good to give warnings or errors in case of incorrect use.
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2021-04-07T16:16:00Z mfiano: It surprises me at how many codebases use the same symbol name for the slot as the accessor (in the general sense, not :accessor)
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2021-04-07T16:16:11Z mfiano: THat is an accident waiting to happen in most cases
2021-04-07T16:16:13Z jackdaniel: beach: I tentatively agree but one could consider adding (setf %extra) accessors clobbering from the code perspective (and one more sub-protocol to keep in mind when working on the system)
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2021-04-07T16:16:57Z beach: Sure.
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2021-04-07T16:17:07Z lukego: It bothers me how much this discussion sounds like #java in the 1990s :(
2021-04-07T16:17:42Z jackdaniel: that sounds as if some very smart people worked on java back then ;-)
2021-04-07T16:17:52Z pve: lukego: you might use emacs to generate an initial defclass form for you, and then edit as necessary
2021-04-07T16:17:52Z lukego: The whole "ravioli code" concept with layers of empty calories between every tiny morsel of meat :)
2021-04-07T16:18:02Z pve: instead of a CL macro, I mean
2021-04-07T16:18:15Z lukego: pve: okay now you're just copy-pasting from a java forum I'm sure of it :)
2021-04-07T16:18:26Z pve: haha no I'm serious
2021-04-07T16:19:21Z pve: you end up with a defclass form that everyone understands, without having to type it all out
2021-04-07T16:19:51Z lukego: This is the big challenge with CLOS for me. I don't /want/ to agree with what you guys are saying :) I like the kind of Lisp code that Peter Norvig writes and he's more likely to use DEFCLASS with :TYPE LIST than any of this business
2021-04-07T16:19:56Z lukego: DEFSTRUCT rather
2021-04-07T16:22:04Z lukego: but maybe it is more of an applications verses libraries thing. I'm writing code that I expect to churn quickly and not be seen by anyone else's eyes before being rewritten a couple of times. so it doesn't seem rational to spend time worrying about how a hypothetical unknown third party might interact with this code. different situation if you're pushing libraries to github/quicklisp.
2021-04-07T16:23:46Z jmercouris: You’ve nailed it
2021-04-07T16:24:04Z jmercouris: All of the advice so far has been given within the context of third party consumers and some robust foundation
2021-04-07T16:24:17Z jmercouris: When neither exist, it is a pointless exercise
2021-04-07T16:24:42Z beach: Sure.  If you don't expose your code to anyone else, you can do whatever you want.
2021-04-07T16:24:50Z lukego: Thank you :)
2021-04-07T16:24:59Z beach: Who needs DEFSTRUCT anyway.  You can just use CAR/CDR.
2021-04-07T16:25:42Z lukego: I can also understand that if you spend time teaching people to program in Lisp, you will want to be focusing on the best practices for doing this properly, since people can always use their judgement to take shortcuts later.
2021-04-07T16:25:47Z jmercouris: Not sure if your being sarcastic, but Eitaro would agree with you
2021-04-07T16:25:55Z jmercouris: You’re *
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2021-04-07T16:26:17Z jmercouris: He uses lists for everything!
2021-04-07T16:26:28Z lukego: I'm reading some ACL2 code that has page-long definitions on which each line is of the form (defun foo-quux (foo) (caddddddddddr foo))
2021-04-07T16:26:51Z Xach: there's also a big difference between "there's no reason for [the way defclass works]" and "i don't like how it works" or "the problems that it solves aren't that important to me" etc
2021-04-07T16:26:58Z beach: jmercouris: I am saying that DEFSTRUCT is already a way to make your code more modular and with defined protocols.  If you don't think you need such things, there might be no point in using DEFSTRUCT either.  Lists could be more flexible.
2021-04-07T16:27:00Z Gnuxie[m]: I hope you are including co-workers as third parties
2021-04-07T16:27:01Z Xach: change [the way defclass works] to whatever you like
2021-04-07T16:27:10Z lukego: so even for throw-away code I appreciate easy ways to get accessors, places to hang print functions, etc.
2021-04-07T16:27:21Z jmercouris: beach: agreed
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2021-04-07T16:27:53Z beach: Gnuxie[m]: I include my future self as a third party.
2021-04-07T16:28:09Z beach: Gnuxie[m]: But that might be because of my notorious bad memory.
2021-04-07T16:28:17Z lukego: beach: that's a good point. in other languages I would do exactly that e.g. if they have pattern matching to make it convenient. could well be that in serapeum there are such facilities and some of my structs could be lists because I don't need dedicated accessor functions.
2021-04-07T16:28:41Z Bike: i wish structure objects were defined with defclass, and defstruct was a library macro to define accessors with convenient names
2021-04-07T16:28:48Z lukego makes mental note to read some idiomatic serapeum code e.g. implementation of serapeum itself
2021-04-07T16:29:19Z Gnuxie[m]: beach: that's wise
2021-04-07T16:29:34Z Gnuxie[m]: gives yourself less work in either case
2021-04-07T16:30:06Z jackdaniel: Bike: in the vast undefined behavior (defclass foo () () (:metaclass structure-class)) works on some implementations
2021-04-07T16:30:36Z Bike: yeah. that's nice.
2021-04-07T16:30:39Z beach: Bike: Your wish is my command! :)
2021-04-07T16:31:02Z Bike: mm hm
2021-04-07T16:31:04Z jackdaniel: ah, but adding slots doesn't work so nice
2021-04-07T16:31:19Z splittist: mixins and generic functions are a great way to allow for unforeseen behaviour modification. And every time I worry about performance I tell myself the world now runs on javascript over the network.
2021-04-07T16:31:27Z lukego: Gnuxie[m]: I do a lot of rewriting. I'll probably rewrite all this particular code at least a couple of times before I share it with anyone else. I've already rewritten much of it once.
2021-04-07T16:31:29Z Bike: you'd probably have to do something funky to ensure the class is defined at enough at compile time to allow subclassing
2021-04-07T16:31:37Z Bike: while keeping the fast access, i mean
2021-04-07T16:31:41Z Shinmera: splittist: My game engine makes heavy use of CLOS :)
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2021-04-07T16:32:09Z jackdaniel: ah, that's it, I've tried redefining foo, when I define a "fresh" class, then I can put slots in there
2021-04-07T16:33:06Z mfiano: My game engine makes heavy use of structure-object and standard-object
2021-04-07T16:33:19Z Bike: defstruct has to do funky stuff of that kind. defstruct is kind of entirely funky stuff
2021-04-07T16:33:26Z jackdaniel: funcallable-standard-object idea is also cool
2021-04-07T16:33:37Z Bike: well, doesn't have to, but does if defstructs have any point over defclass
2021-04-07T16:33:45Z Bike: i'm pretty sure sbcl has funcallable structure objects
2021-04-07T16:33:54Z jackdaniel: well, they are mandated by mop
2021-04-07T16:33:54Z Bike: internally, obvs
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2021-04-07T16:33:59Z Bike: they are?
2021-04-07T16:34:12Z VincentVega: Hi! Is there a portable way to suppress a redefinition warning?
2021-04-07T16:34:12Z jackdaniel: ah, funcallable *structure* object
2021-04-07T16:34:21Z jackdaniel: I've meant *standard* :)
2021-04-07T16:34:25Z Bike: ah. yeah.
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2021-04-07T16:35:18Z pve: lukego: I once worked on an old application that stored everything (or a lot, anyway) in symbol plists. A curious design choice, but it did work..
2021-04-07T16:35:36Z Bike: i would also like upgraded-structure-slot-type and a pony.
2021-04-07T16:36:06Z lukego: pve: thank you for normalizing the use of whatever quirky representation one prefers in the privacy of one's own codebase :)
2021-04-07T16:36:14Z jackdaniel: I have a turtle and upgraded-array-type, will do? ,)
2021-04-07T16:36:17Z jackdaniel gets back to work
2021-04-07T16:36:22Z Bike: turtles are nice too.
2021-04-07T16:36:33Z Xach: If your program does something very useful, people will often adapt to it, rather than demand vice versa
2021-04-07T16:37:03Z mfiano: THat's a major problem with Lisp. People often care more about the code than the artifact
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2021-04-07T16:38:14Z Xach: It's a problem with many forms of endeavor - obsession with the tools and their proper use rather than the product of the tools. But there's no denying that a nice tool, used properly, is a delight.
2021-04-07T16:38:17Z pve: lukego: I just assumed it was a trendy style in the early 90's and left it at that :)
2021-04-07T16:38:36Z lukego: I'll admit that I allow myself to spend much more creative energy on editing Lisp code than most other languages. I enjoy that though. keeps me amused while I'm programming
2021-04-07T16:38:45Z Xach thinks of people who post pictures of their workbench and planes rather than the useful objects produced with them
2021-04-07T16:39:04Z Shinmera: I hate my level editor a whole lot, but simply don't have the time to make it nice.
2021-04-07T16:39:13Z Shinmera: In some ways, having deadlines and such pressures is good.
2021-04-07T16:40:05Z Bike: if you're a compiler dev your work is increasingly elaborate pictures of workbenches
2021-04-07T16:40:15Z pve: lukego: but to be fair, it was written mostly by computational linguists who only wanted to get the job done
2021-04-07T16:40:41Z beach: Shinmera: Do you have a deadline for your game?
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2021-04-07T16:41:12Z Shinmera: Well the most pressing deadline is me running out of money, so I have to be very smart with that.
2021-04-07T16:41:26Z beach: Hmm, yes, I see.
2021-04-07T16:41:36Z Shinmera: Other than that we also have a release schedule we're aiming for, which is roughly 2 years from now.
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2021-04-07T16:44:39Z beach: Deadlines far in the future are tough.
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2021-04-07T16:56:46Z shka_: see: the global warming
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2021-04-07T17:13:42Z _death: jackdaniel: I'm surprised ;).. I expected some resistance, at least for the draw-arrow stuff, if not the keybindings (which I supposed must have had some good reason not to be there in the last 20 years)
2021-04-07T17:14:48Z jackdaniel: _death: after testing them I've decided that they are fine (and minor)
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2021-04-07T17:15:08Z jackdaniel: thanks!
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2021-04-07T17:17:40Z _death: jackdaniel: cool :).. I also had to patch the coordinates stuff, which currently has exact comparisons incl. on floats that causes trouble with ellipses, but I noticed the commented version and some old mcclim-devel discussions and some issues on github so I thought another approach may be on the queue
2021-04-07T17:18:38Z jackdaniel: I want to change the ellipse representation from parralelogram to something more stable (transformation-wise)
2021-04-07T17:19:20Z _death: yeah, that's one of things I gathered.. the exact comparisons may caused issues elsewhere too
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2021-04-07T17:19:58Z jackdaniel: comparisons are one issue, but the current code can error because of a non-reversible transformation (due to rounding errors)
2021-04-07T17:20:12Z jackdaniel: i.e after trying to rotate the ellipse
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2021-04-07T17:21:10Z _death: right.. there are two issues.. the inversion is easy to reproduce with the Fig example, and the comparison is easy with https://www.artm-friends.at/rm/kytron/kytron-clim.html (after small tweaks to make it work)
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2021-04-07T17:30:21Z _death: I also have some changes to scigraph, but it may be that it doesn't work right only for me.. I guess the most annoying issue right now is the repeated mapping and unmapping (with lots of match error 42) that happens if I switch windows in stumpwm, usually once per application frame.. also, (setf clim:*default-server-path* :clx) looks cool and retro :)
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2021-04-07T17:33:47Z _death: (to make clear, this issue is not limited to scigraph.. it often happens with any arbitrary application frame)
2021-04-07T17:34:25Z jackdaniel: the only moment I've worked with scigraph was the effort to make it "start"
2021-04-07T17:34:36Z jackdaniel: so I won't be much help with it :)
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2021-04-07T18:19:19Z hypercube: minion: source code
2021-04-07T18:19:22Z minion: please stop playing with me... i am not a toy
2021-04-07T18:19:48Z hypercube: lol im just curious about how u work
2021-04-07T18:20:43Z phoe: hypercube: https://github.com/stassats/lisp-bots/
2021-04-07T18:21:12Z hypercube: oh awesome, thank you phoe!
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2021-04-07T18:29:26Z phoe: I've updated the minion cliki page, now it points to that repo
2021-04-07T18:29:29Z phoe: minion: tell phoe about minion
2021-04-07T18:29:29Z minion: minion: https://www.cliki.net/minion
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2021-04-07T18:34:36Z gabc: phoe: just received your book, thanks for making it :)
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2021-04-07T18:34:45Z phoe: gabc: hope it serves you well
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2021-04-07T18:36:18Z albusp: Trying to get sly working with emacs, currently I don't have slynk running (no lisp process active), and indenting code in *.lisp files gives the error "Symbol’s function definition is void: sly-common-lisp-indent-function". I'm checking sly.el and others, and found a line in slynk.lisp mentioning the function: https://github.com/joaotavora/sly/blob/e927cdae984b2c3383e1e2358e37f1a4115b142e/slynk/slynk.lisp#L3996.
2021-04-07T18:36:21Z albusp: Does this mean the indent function will appear after a slynk starts running?
2021-04-07T18:37:03Z phoe: albusp: do you by any chance have sly and slime installed/loaded at the same time?
2021-04-07T18:37:21Z albusp: no, I removed slime after issues.
2021-04-07T18:37:55Z albusp: slynk is not yet running because it doesn't compile on abcl (yet - i'm trying to fix it)
2021-04-07T18:38:18Z albusp: maybe I should try sbcl case to see if the indent is running. let's see...
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2021-04-07T18:43:36Z albusp: yes, indent function appears after a slynk starts. :)
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2021-04-07T19:06:26Z contrapunctus: "Who needs DEFSTRUCT anyway.  You can just use CAR/CDR." lol I had to do a double take here, until I read the previous message 😄
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2021-04-07T19:40:41Z logand``: ;
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2021-04-07T20:00:14Z aeth: Everyone comes into Common Lisp for different reasons so there's no real one true way to represent something. If you really wanted to just use conses for everything, though, CL isn't really the right language for that because they're not optimized. (destructuring-bind is a very nice macro for handling conses, though)
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2021-04-07T20:24:42Z jmercouris: a way to (format "~a" 'symbol) in lowercase?
2021-04-07T20:24:46Z jmercouris: a directive for this?
2021-04-07T20:25:09Z jmercouris: (format nil "~a" 'symbol)
2021-04-07T20:25:24Z _death: ~(
2021-04-07T20:25:44Z jmercouris: _death: ?
2021-04-07T20:26:31Z jmercouris: ah: (format nil "~(~a~)" 'symbol)
2021-04-07T20:26:32Z _death: you don't speak format directivish?
2021-04-07T20:26:55Z jmercouris: apparently I do :-D
2021-04-07T20:26:59Z jmercouris: just took me a second to realize what you meant
2021-04-07T20:28:24Z aeth: jmercouris: *print-case* :downcase
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2021-04-07T20:28:59Z Josh_2: jmercouris: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/22_cha.htm
2021-04-07T20:30:18Z aeth: I guess that is equivalent, but it seems less readable to me than the more verbose (let ((*print-case* :downcase)) (format nil "~A" 'foo))
2021-04-07T20:30:38Z jmercouris: aeth: I just want it in a single format directive
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2021-04-07T20:30:42Z jmercouris: so I will leave it
2021-04-07T20:30:55Z jmercouris: would be a bit verbose to let bind print case for this specific thing
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2021-04-07T20:32:22Z aeth: ~( is useful, new information for me, too
2021-04-07T20:32:33Z aeth: I go back and forth between loving FORMAT and hating FORMAT so I'll probably use it in the future
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2021-04-07T20:32:46Z jmercouris: same
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2021-04-07T22:06:56Z no-defun-allowed: jmercouris: I think that if the result of evaluating X and X are equivalent, then you are saying that every evaluation has a fixed point.
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2021-04-07T22:07:56Z no-defun-allowed: That could be the case in e.g. Miranda or Haskell, as e.g. [x, y :: z] could evaluate to [1, 2, 3] which evaluates to [1, 2, 3] but not any Lisp.
2021-04-07T22:08:19Z jmercouris: I think when answering a question one should consider the context
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2021-04-07T22:08:49Z jmercouris: Answer to the audience skill level
2021-04-07T22:09:07Z no-defun-allowed: I think when using a word, one should consider what that word means.
2021-04-07T22:09:09Z jmercouris: Instead of giving a technically correct, but unhelpful response
2021-04-07T22:09:39Z no-defun-allowed: evaluates-to is not an equivalence relationship.
2021-04-07T22:09:56Z jmercouris: That’s not my point
2021-04-07T22:10:19Z no-defun-allowed: If it were, then e.g. X should always evaluate to 'X. I won't make an example for transitivity.
2021-04-07T22:10:36Z jmercouris: Not sure who you are explaining what to
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2021-04-07T22:11:00Z no-defun-allowed: You.
2021-04-07T22:11:44Z jmercouris: Oh I see
2021-04-07T22:11:53Z jmercouris: No need, I understand this concept already
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2021-04-07T22:17:12Z no-defun-allowed: So it would be evident why "equivalent" has a particular meaning when used in the context of Lisp evaluation?
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2021-04-07T22:26:58Z no-defun-allowed: (Actually, that is probably not even the case in Haskell or Miranda. We might say 2 and 1 + 1 are equivalent forms, but an evaluator for one of those languages might reduce 1 + 1 to 2, but not the other way around.)
2021-04-07T22:29:39Z sm2n: blah blah referential transparency, they are equal within the denotational semantics of the language
2021-04-07T22:29:47Z sm2n: (in haskell or whatever)
2021-04-07T22:30:37Z sm2n: in pure fp things are given their identity by their normal form under reduction, by church-rosser or related
2021-04-07T22:30:49Z sm2n: (assuming your stuff terminates)
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2021-04-07T22:56:17Z phantomics: Hey all, wondering if there's a library that converts HTML-encoded characters like &#34; to Unicode. Tried some HTML parsers that didn't do it and can't see anything to do it on CL package lists
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2021-04-07T23:13:56Z raeda: The numeric encoding is the code point number iirc. SBCL has unicode lookup by code point and you might be able to use CL-PPCRE to find & replace
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2021-04-07T23:14:27Z raeda: Not sure if there's any good way to convert the named escapes like &lt;
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2021-04-07T23:34:04Z Xach: phantomics: see the html-entities system
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2021-04-07T23:34:49Z Xach: (html-entities:decode-entities "&lt;&#34;&gt;") => "<\">"
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2021-04-07T23:35:27Z phantomics: Xach: thanks
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2021-04-07T23:41:47Z moon-child: no-defun-allowed, sm2n: no denotational semantics required, you can define equality strictly in terms of halting
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2021-04-07T23:43:07Z moon-child: given two expressions e1 and e2 in some language L, consider the universe of hole-containing programs within L.  For each of those programs, substitute each of e1 and e2 for the hole.  If there's any case when e1 causes a halt and e2 does not (or vice versa) then the expressions are not equivalent
2021-04-07T23:43:10Z moon-child: otherwise they are
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2021-04-07T23:53:51Z no-defun-allowed: This is somewhat more interesting than arguing that EVAL is not an equivalence relation.
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2021-04-08T01:18:30Z sm2n: moon-child: what about a language like idris where all well-formed programs are guaranteed to halt?
2021-04-08T01:18:35Z sm2n: that doesn't seem right
2021-04-08T01:21:11Z moon-child: sm2n: then idris is not turing-complete?
2021-04-08T01:21:38Z sm2n: strictly speaking, I believe so
2021-04-08T01:21:43Z moon-child: I don't think that definition is usually applied to non turing-complete languages
2021-04-08T01:22:09Z Bike: i don't understand this definition even without fancy schmancy programmin' languages
2021-04-08T01:22:17Z Bike: er, wait
2021-04-08T01:22:21Z sm2n: you have to prove all the bounds on your computations statically in idris
2021-04-08T01:22:23Z Bike: are you saying do this for all possible programs?
2021-04-08T01:22:26Z sm2n: yeah
2021-04-08T01:22:40Z Bike: oh, well then that works.
2021-04-08T01:23:00Z Bike: you're including programs like (unless (= _ 4) (loop)) after all
2021-04-08T01:23:17Z moon-child: right
2021-04-08T01:23:39Z moon-child: the advantage of that definition is that it works for all turing-complete languages without needing to have any knowledge of their semantics beyond that
2021-04-08T01:24:07Z sm2n: cool, I learned something today, thanks
2021-04-08T01:24:29Z moon-child: :)
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2021-04-08T01:30:59Z sm2n: or actually, moon-child, do you happen to have a reference that discusses this? I'd like to read more about it
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2021-04-08T03:09:50Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-04-08T03:13:12Z lukego: Thanks everyone for the rigorous discussion of datatype definition styles yesterday. I reread the Serapeum docs from beginning to end to try and update my mental model. For really ad-hoc internal data structures I need to experiment with DICT/MATCH and with DEFUNION.
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2021-04-08T03:18:59Z lukego: Maybe DEFCLASS verses DEFCLASS-STD (etc) is a false dichotomy and really there are a lot of different contexts for defining datatypes that each call for a separate mechanism. kinda like IF and WHEN and UNLESS and so on.
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2021-04-08T03:19:54Z lukego: I notice though that all this obsessing about how to define datatypes has not actually caused my broken program to start working and maybe I should try a different approach to that problem...
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2021-04-08T03:36:16Z Josh_2: just use lists, simple az
2021-04-08T03:37:28Z beach: I think we heard all the arguments around half a day ago.
2021-04-08T03:40:43Z beach: I completely misunderstood the context and thought lukego and jmercouris were talking about the use of these operators in more-or-less final code, but it became clear that they meant the use in code that is highly likely to change, to be rewritten, or to be deleted entirely.
2021-04-08T03:41:57Z lukego: beach: I am feeling less provoked by your "if you don't care about X" comments when I read that as "when you are not immediately concerned about X in your present context" rather than "when you are a bad person because you don't give X due respect" :)
2021-04-08T03:42:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: iI see I missed all the fun
2021-04-08T03:43:22Z beach: lukego: Sure, that's a good interpretation in your case.  Not so with many others who come here and who have no idea about elementary software engineering.
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2021-04-08T03:44:11Z no-defun-allowed: fiddlerwoaroof: Yes, you're supposed to use generic functions, i.e. no defun. Cancel out the two negatives, and you have only fun.
2021-04-08T03:44:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: I personally really dislike non-extensible conditional constructs
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2021-04-08T03:44:40Z lukego: it's a new revelation to me now though that there are a bunch of other macros, e.g. DEFCONSTRUCTOR from Serapeum, that actually capture the context i.e. that is something that you only use for a quick and simple local representation of immutable structures.
2021-04-08T03:44:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: e.g. I almost always use generic functions instead of case/cond and friends
2021-04-08T03:45:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: And, what I've noticed, is that almost all "functional" programming languages use constructs that are OOP in CLOS's sense
2021-04-08T03:46:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: Clojure's multimethods are just a bad version of CLOS and Haskell has typeclasses everywhere, which basically are a compile-time version of generic dispatch
2021-04-08T03:46:15Z lukego: and that puts me off defclass-std as being "yet another defclass" rather than something complementary that's tailored to a more specific use case.
2021-04-08T03:46:47Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: You must have missed the general consensus here in #lisp that you should avoid generic functions since they are bad for performance.
2021-04-08T03:47:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't worry about performance until I have to
2021-04-08T03:47:08Z beach hasn't finished his coffee yet, and feels cranky still.
2021-04-08T03:47:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: I guess I'm a bad programmer
2021-04-08T03:47:17Z Josh_2: beach: that was the general consensus? Folks must have gone mad ;)
2021-04-08T03:47:19Z beach: I guess so.
2021-04-08T03:47:27Z beach: Josh_2: I am joking.
2021-04-08T03:48:05Z Josh_2: :P
2021-04-08T03:48:45Z lukego: I liked splittist's comment that the rest of the world is built in Javascript these days so there's nothing particularly indulgent about using all the generics and indirections you please. Chrome has reset the bar on what is appropriate resource utilization by software and we can all rejoice in our relative thrift :)
2021-04-08T03:49:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: JS is pretty fast, though
2021-04-08T03:49:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: Like, I think it's probably hard to right a compiler for a dynamic language that comes close to V8
2021-04-08T03:49:51Z beach: lukego: Facts like that don't seem to prevent eternal discussions about performance.  Not to mention the size of executables.
2021-04-08T03:50:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: I mean, like 90% of companies run on some combination of Python, Ruby or PHP
2021-04-08T03:50:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: If we want to talk about performance not mattering
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2021-04-08T03:51:14Z beach: That's very sobering to hear.
2021-04-08T03:51:18Z lukego: fiddlerwoaroof: so much the better :) writing slow code is contributing to computer science by stimulating compiler research, just look at javascript...
2021-04-08T03:51:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: The great thing about CL is that I find I can just write CL in most situations where I'd use FFI in Python
2021-04-08T03:51:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: Not to mention actually being able to benefit from multiple threads of executin
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2021-04-08T03:52:32Z beach: The more I hear about Python (the language) the more I think it's a joke, and the more I am totally baffled why anyone would want to use it.
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2021-04-08T03:52:53Z Josh_2: its easy and promoted a lot
2021-04-08T03:52:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's all about the libraries, really
2021-04-08T03:53:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: Also, it's relatively quick to go from nothing to a proof of concept in Python
2021-04-08T03:54:28Z mfiano: I don't buy the last bit
2021-04-08T03:54:40Z lukego: I like that "I must program as inefficiently as possible" mantra. that it's healthy mental exercise to burn CPU cycles and you should strive to do it as much as you can get away with.
2021-04-08T03:55:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: :)
2021-04-08T03:55:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: lukego: "only optimize problems you can measure" is pretty standard advice
2021-04-08T03:55:56Z lukego: or maybe we should fight to get our own code a respectable share of our CPU's cycles relative to e.g. Chrome and the idle loop :)
2021-04-08T03:56:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't take a program seriously that doesn't pin at least one CPU core and consume 4GB of RAM
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2021-04-08T03:59:31Z lukego: (also my code is working now and it's massively improved compared with the previous messy version so thanks everybody who helped me pick the right color for my bikeshed, it worked out in the end)
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2021-04-08T04:01:00Z lukego: I really notice that after a break from Lisp hacking it takes a while to reabsorb all the old idioms and learn new ones. a bit like taking a break from speaking english. big languages full of nuance that are always evolving.
2021-04-08T04:01:23Z beach: I am reminded of the remarks by several students in the past when they were given a bad grade on some programs: "But it works!!!".
2021-04-08T04:02:33Z beach: lukego: Congratulations to being back!
2021-04-08T04:02:40Z lukego: thanks :)
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2021-04-08T04:32:59Z no-defun-allowed: beach: From memory, the marking system at my last university was predominantly marking what ran. Who were you teaching?
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2021-04-08T04:38:40Z beach: Final year undergraduates and first year masters students.  The message was always that a program that works but that is unmaintainable is useless because it must be thrown away when the requirements change, but a program that does not work but is maintainable can be made to work more easily.
2021-04-08T04:39:10Z beach: So we read the code of each program and graded (marked) it according to these criteria.
2021-04-08T04:40:01Z beach: I am totally sure that this is still the case for the masters students, because I know the person running that course very well, and we share the same values when it comes to software development.
2021-04-08T04:40:15Z no-defun-allowed: I see.
2021-04-08T04:40:17Z beach: For the undergraduates, I haven't kept up, so I don't know.
2021-04-08T04:43:46Z beach: It was a lot of work, of course.  But more to the point, this kind of grading requires the teachers to be competent in software development, and that is typically not the case when they are hired, as I have already explained.  So these teachers had to invest a lot of time reading and writing code, books, and articles about software development.
2021-04-08T04:44:48Z beach: And that time was not explicitly paid.  In fact, by spending that time on teaching rather than on some narrow research, their careers were often delayed.
2021-04-08T04:47:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've always thought that the way universities have seemed to unified research professors and teaching professors is bad for everyon
2021-04-08T04:48:12Z moon-child: fiddlerwoaroof: I think the theory, at least, is to avoid 'those who can't do teach'
2021-04-08T04:48:46Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: Not usually.  Take mathematics or the sciences (physics, chemistry).  The undergraduate teaching doesn't require them to keep up, or to acquire skills from industry.  The material is the same from one year to another.
2021-04-08T04:49:24Z beach: The problem is that the computer science programs accepted to take on the teaching of programming and software development.
2021-04-08T04:49:33Z lukego: I approach software development more like the way people advise writers to write. lots of drafts and rewrites and darlings and murders and so on. but desired end result is still the same as people who do things right first time.
2021-04-08T04:50:03Z beach: If they had stayed with theory, like computability, complexity theory, etc.  There would be no problem.
2021-04-08T04:50:32Z lukego: I often don't even compile my first version of a program before rewriting it - just dump it out into emacs to organize my thoughts - so I really don't want to spend cycles thinking about optimization or maintainability or even syntax errors in that context.
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2021-04-08T04:51:07Z beach: lukego: What's the context?
2021-04-08T04:51:38Z beach: lukego: As in, what prompted you to say that?
2021-04-08T04:51:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, my background is mostly in the humanities (grad school and undergrad): but, my experience there was that the professors who were really good at research often weren't great to have as a teacher while the ones that you wanted to teach you often weren't the people who are famous for their ideas
2021-04-08T04:51:57Z no-defun-allowed: beach: I think lukego is continuing with the discussion on performance.
2021-04-08T04:52:04Z beach: Oh!
2021-04-08T04:52:25Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: I can imagine that, sure.
2021-04-08T04:52:50Z lukego: beach: mostly just reflecting on friction in the discussion yesterday, specifically realizing that when I'm in "rough first draft that won't even compile" mode I'll naturally be at odds with your advice about how to write clean code that will pass formal review.
2021-04-08T04:52:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: Anyways, I'll go back to being on-topic
2021-04-08T04:52:55Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: The problem in software development is that we have no good way to select knowledgeable teachers.
2021-04-08T04:53:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, measuring "teaching" as such is always the challenge
2021-04-08T04:53:30Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: And in software development, there is the problem of competence.
2021-04-08T04:53:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: Research has measurable outputs in a way teaching doesn't
2021-04-08T04:53:44Z no-defun-allowed: (...to which I think Joe Armstrong nailed the apparent decision between performance and good design with "Make it work, then make it beautiful, then if you really, really have to, make it fast. 90 percent of the time, if you make it beautiful, it will already be fast. So really, just make it beautiful!")
2021-04-08T04:53:49Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: Not many people have it, and there is nobody to determine who does.
2021-04-08T04:54:11Z moon-child: imo 'make it fast' is a misnomer.  There is no fast code.  There is slow code, and if code is slow then it bears to make it not slow
2021-04-08T04:54:21Z lukego: beach: and I guess that there are different kinds of advice about how to write good code. one kind focuses on what the result should look like - clean interfaces, etc - and the other focuses on the process - should have been rewritten at least N times and be only 1/Mth its original line count
2021-04-08T04:55:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: lukego: I generally write the code you're talking about as drafts in the repl
2021-04-08T04:55:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: After I'm fairly satisfied with a solution, I copy it into a file and generalize
2021-04-08T04:56:07Z lukego: fiddlerwoaroof: I'm becoming more extreme over the years. I can easily spend several weeks writing draft code that never compiles. I wouldn't do that in the repl
2021-04-08T04:56:20Z no-defun-allowed: Or at least, I think my "fast code" is relatively nice, because it uses the right data structures and algorithms and whatever else that quiche-eater Nicholas Wirth probably said was good.
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2021-04-08T04:57:50Z lukego: maybe I'm progressing in my career towards drawing useless UML diagrams all day in some senior role at an IBM-alike.
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2021-04-08T05:00:45Z fe[nl]ix: lukego: something to live for
2021-04-08T05:00:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: lukego: my career started out with Delphi and, ever since that was taken away, I've found it really annoying to write GUI software
2021-04-08T05:01:16Z lukego: fe[nl]ix: die a hero, live a villain, etc, i guess :)
2021-04-08T05:01:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: And by "career", I'm starting when I was about 7
2021-04-08T05:02:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, I just find most of the modern development tools annoying
2021-04-08T05:02:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: CL in emacs, so far is the least bad
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2021-04-08T05:14:14Z moon-child: fiddlerwoaroof: have you seen fpc/lazarus?
2021-04-08T05:17:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: moon-child: yeah, I've even used it a bit here and there
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2021-04-08T05:18:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's annoying to setup on a Mac and relatively unstable (at least, the Cocoa port is), but the experience of using it still is so much better than the React stuff that pays the bills
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2021-04-08T05:19:36Z lukego: I'm really impressed with GToolkit for Pharo Smalltalk as a development environment. I started off using it for this project before switching to lisp
2021-04-08T05:20:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's something I think about every once in a while: as an industry, I've begun to think our memories are so short that we just forget everything that happened more than five years ago or so
2021-04-08T05:20:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: lukego: yeah, I've always been interested in that ecosystem, but I've found it hard to get started
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2021-04-08T05:22:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: Like, I'm working on a react native application and everyone's talking about how "X doesn't work for mobile apps because of how much harder it is to deploy mobile apps than websites", completely ignoring that X was practiced when shipping an update meant shipping CDs in boxes
2021-04-08T05:22:45Z lukego: I think that my memory is becoming more of a "high-pass" filter, seems to just ignore anything that happened _less_ than five years ago and assume it's a passing fad
2021-04-08T05:22:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: :)
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2021-04-08T05:30:04Z no-defun-allowed: Most of the references in the book I sometimes write are from 2010-2019 or 1990-1999. Did people just not have ideas in 2000-2009?
2021-04-08T05:30:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: no-defun-allowed: what was the Web 2.0 era, right?
2021-04-08T05:31:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's all XML
2021-04-08T05:31:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: And Java applications glued together using XML
2021-04-08T05:31:29Z no-defun-allowed: Now that you mention it.
2021-04-08T05:31:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: XSLT and XPath get an honorable mention (both of which I actually secretly like)
2021-04-08T05:34:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's also notable for the ascendancy of Ruby on Rails and the rise of Agile
2021-04-08T05:38:36Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: for programming? in the early '00s "everyone" got laid off and left the industry because of the dot-com bust.
2021-04-08T05:39:19Z aeth: you can also look at some interesting stats like enrollments in university comp sci departments.
2021-04-08T05:39:40Z no-defun-allowed: aeth: Well, mostly programming. Though if I redraw the histogram with 5-year bars, I see that 2005-2009 was strangely quiet.
2021-04-08T05:40:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: The last time Haskell was a language with a specification and multiple viable implementations :0
2021-04-08T05:40:36Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: web 2.0 era?
2021-04-08T05:40:58Z no-defun-allowed: Appears like it, as O'Reilly popularised the term in 2004.
2021-04-08T05:41:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, V8/the JVM's tracing JIT dates to about then too
2021-04-08T05:41:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think
2021-04-08T05:42:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: I guess I'm wrong about the JVM's JIT, but V8 is then
2021-04-08T05:42:15Z no-defun-allowed: The 90s brought about Squeak, the end of Self, the Unix-Hater's Handbook and the second edition of SICP.
2021-04-08T05:42:36Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, the Self compiler people moved to Strongtalk and then the JVM.
2021-04-08T05:43:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: The 2000s were basically the years when Microsoft was at the height of its power, afaict
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2021-04-08T05:44:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: The Unix vendors were basically irrelevant for most people, the Web was still being held back by IE6
2021-04-08T05:44:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: And smartphones weren't yet around, really
2021-04-08T05:44:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: (sorry, Blackberry users)
2021-04-08T05:48:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: lukego, you just showed up in a Google search: https://github.com/lukego/blog/issues/5
2021-04-08T05:48:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: (via a hackernews result for "JVM tracing JIT")
2021-04-08T05:56:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: lukego: I'm also curious why you're rewriting from gtoolkit to lisp
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2021-04-08T06:39:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: Does anyone happen to have a VNC server written in CL?
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2021-04-08T06:47:41Z lukego: fiddlerwoaroof: the ultimate reason that I switched from gtoolkit to lisp is for the language. in Lisp I feel free to write basically pseudocode and gradually massage/rewrite it into something the compiler understands. in smalltalk I can't even Save code that doesn't have correct syntax, isn't organized into classes, doesn't adhere to the rules about inheritance and traits, etc.
2021-04-08T06:48:20Z lukego: but I've used gtoolkit a lot in a previous project and the big problem then was that they were constantly rewriting it and it was very difficult to build from source (which i spent weeks and weeks fighting and ultimately gave up on)
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2021-04-08T06:52:06Z lukego: but I think that I was unlucky with timing -- I wrote an application based on the "old gtoolkit" that they did at a university and then they immediately formed a company to develop the "new gtoolkit" and there was an awkward period there where the old version wasn't supported anymore but the new version wasn't ready to use yet
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2021-04-08T06:57:21Z lukego: bringing this back to lisp -- it's actually a strength that a lot of stuff here is basically the same as it has always been. I don't spend my time trying to keep up with the ecosystem every month -- or even necessarily have to worry about what's changed in the past 10/20 years.
2021-04-08T06:59:04Z lukego: maybe I'm getting old but "stability" is a feature to me these days and pretty high on my priority list. I'm glad that Lispers don't "burn the diskpacks" every five years.
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2021-04-08T07:06:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I really grew to appreciate that, both in CL and in working with Clojure
2021-04-08T07:07:11Z lukego: random follow up of past discussion: I'm super happy with the 1AM unit test framework. it's about 80 lines of code and just the right level of minimalism for me.
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2021-04-08T09:27:51Z asarch: If I had: '(:|beer| 10 :|pizza| 4 :|tacos| 8) how could I converted to: (:beer 10 :pizza 4 :tacos 8)?
2021-04-08T09:28:26Z asarch: s/to: (:beer 10 :pizza 4 :tacos 8)/to: '(:beer 10 :pizza 4 :tacos 8)/
2021-04-08T09:28:55Z no-defun-allowed: Dare I ask why you have the former?
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2021-04-08T09:29:11Z asarch: It is a query result
2021-04-08T09:29:50Z asarch: If that would be stored in food, doing a (getf food :|pizza|) would gives me only the value
2021-04-08T09:29:55Z beach: asarch: Someone must have turned the string "beer" into a symbol?
2021-04-08T09:30:07Z asarch: Is there any way to modify the key?
2021-04-08T09:30:38Z no-defun-allowed: What did you use to generate that list? I am guessing some parser took every key and did (intern <key> '#:keyword)
2021-04-08T09:30:48Z beach: asarch: I think we are saying, don't create a symbol with lower-case letters in the first place.
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2021-04-08T09:31:52Z asarch: That's the result of a query with CL-DBI: (dbi:fetch-all (dbi:execute (dbi:prepare *connection* "SELECT * FROM somewhere WHERE flag = ? OR updated_at > ?") (list 0 "2011-11-01")))
2021-04-08T09:32:03Z no-defun-allowed: Does cl-json do that? No, that generates alists and converts to upper kebab-case by default -- oh okay.
2021-04-08T09:32:13Z White_Flame: I would mapcar, and if a term is keywordp, re-intern it under *package*
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2021-04-08T09:33:03Z White_Flame: or probably easier but less robust would be (read-from-string (symbol-name key))
2021-04-08T09:33:21Z White_Flame: only if you are certain of the keywords being safe syntax
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2021-04-08T09:33:47Z beach: asarch: Next question: Why do you want to convert those symbols to upper case?
2021-04-08T09:33:52Z no-defun-allowed: An interesting result format. (n.b. I think you should stash the prepared statement somewhere, if it hasn't been folded in for the example.)
2021-04-08T09:33:53Z beach: Aren't they fine as they are?
2021-04-08T09:34:17Z White_Flame: oh wait, you did want the result still as keywords
2021-04-08T09:34:37Z White_Flame: but yeah, I agree with beach.  The canonical names are :|beer| etc, use that syntax
2021-04-08T09:35:05Z White_Flame: if the names all of a sudden have other cases, for some reason, or you need to re-assert into the database that those came from, you need to use the same key
2021-04-08T09:35:46Z asarch: Well, I have some functions that retrieve data a la (getf food :pizza)
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2021-04-08T09:37:49Z beach: Don't do that then.  Do (getf food :|pizza| instead.
2021-04-08T09:38:22Z beach: asarch: Why would you use a key with GETF that is not one that is in your list?
2021-04-08T09:38:53Z asarch: Here in México Dell is selling this https://pasteboard.co/JVwoB5Y.jpg at the ridiculous prices of ~$1,000 USD. It would be great instead of a "normal" laptop, right?
2021-04-08T09:39:14Z asarch: Because there are two ways of doing the queries
2021-04-08T09:39:37Z asarch: The A method and the B method. This, the :|pizza| is the result of the B method
2021-04-08T09:40:10Z asarch: I usually do with the A method, that's why I have all these functions getting data from the list with (getf food :pizza)
2021-04-08T09:40:43Z White_Flame: then fix the queries to always return the same form of the keys
2021-04-08T09:41:07Z asarch: That's exactly what I am trying to do
2021-04-08T09:41:21Z asarch: That is the point of my question
2021-04-08T09:42:11Z White_Flame: (intern (string-upcase :|foo|) (symbol-package :keyword)) => :FOO
2021-04-08T09:42:45Z asarch: WOW!!!
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2021-04-08T09:44:27Z asarch: One last question: how do you get automatically the keys (:|beer| 10 :|pizza| 4 :|tacos| 8)?
2021-04-08T09:44:41Z White_Flame: or from alexandria, (make-keyword (string-upcase :|foo|)) => :FOO
2021-04-08T09:44:53Z White_Flame: I'd just mapcar it
2021-04-08T09:45:11Z White_Flame: if you have any values that need the same treatment
2021-04-08T09:45:23Z White_Flame: else, LOOP can handle 2 elements at a time pretty easily
2021-04-08T09:45:52Z White_Flame: there's also doplist in alexandria, where you can PUSH your own result list
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2021-04-08T09:48:52Z silasfox: (defun upcase-keyword (x)
2021-04-08T09:48:53Z silasfox: 	   (if (keywordp x)
2021-04-08T09:48:53Z silasfox: 	       (intern (string-upcase x) (symbol-package :keyword))
2021-04-08T09:48:54Z silasfox: 	       x))
2021-04-08T09:49:17Z silasfox:  (mapcar #'upcase-keyword '(:|beer| 10 :|pizza| 4 :|tacos| 8)) => (:beer 10 :pizza 4 :tacos 8)
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2021-04-08T09:50:39Z beach: silasfox: Please use a paste site for code longer than a single line.
2021-04-08T09:51:06Z silasfox: OK, I'll do so in the future.
2021-04-08T09:51:51Z asarch: Yeah, I was this close to the result :-P
2021-04-08T09:51:53Z beach: Also, it's not so great to apply a function named UPCASE-KEYWORD to numbers.
2021-04-08T09:52:20Z beach: silasfox: In particular, if the value is a keyword, that should perhaps not be altered.
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2021-04-08T09:53:21Z asarch: Nice, isn't it?
2021-04-08T09:54:09Z beach: Furthermore, INTERN takes a "package designator", so you can say (intern ... "KEYWORD")
2021-04-08T09:54:31Z White_Flame: UPCASE-IF-KEYWORD maybe
2021-04-08T09:54:37Z beach: And (symbol-package :keyword) is a bit strange anyway.
2021-04-08T09:54:47Z asarch: You should write an æncyclopedia about this snippets
2021-04-08T09:54:54Z White_Flame: yeah, i always forget about package designators and always just grab a package quickly
2021-04-08T09:55:11Z beach: (find-package "KEYWORD") would be better.
2021-04-08T09:56:21Z beach now fears getting the "but it works" treatment. 
2021-04-08T09:56:40Z silasfox: beach: Not at all, thanks for teaching me something.
2021-04-08T09:56:50Z beach: Pleasure.
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2021-04-08T10:01:07Z White_Flame: beach: actually, I think it started off as more a performance thing.  (find-package ...) is a function call but (symbol-package ..) just reads a slot from a read-time-interned symbol ;)
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2021-04-08T10:01:29Z White_Flame: (as in, nitpicky cycles that don't really matter but dangit this is more direct :) )
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2021-04-08T10:10:44Z beach: In that case, I would do #.(find-package "KEYWORD").
2021-04-08T10:11:14Z beach: Or (load-time-value (find-package "KEYWORD"))
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2021-04-08T10:13:49Z beach: White_Flame, on the other hand, SYMBOL-PACKAGE may very well be a generic function in some implementations, and everyone knows how slow a call to a generic function can be. :)
2021-04-08T10:16:28Z asarch: Yeah! It worked! La vie in rose gentlemen! Cheers! o/
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2021-04-08T10:29:16Z asarch: Thank you guys
2021-04-08T10:29:24Z asarch: Thank you very much :-)
2021-04-08T10:29:29Z asarch: Have a nice day
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2021-04-08T10:48:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: Well, I've solved one problem I had with lisp graphics
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2021-04-08T10:48:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: Rather than figure out how to interface with my OS, I've discovered it's relatively simple to write a VNC server that serves a framebuffer over the "network"
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2021-04-08T10:49:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: This lets me let the VNC client figure out how to display the framebuffer
2021-04-08T10:50:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: And when I say "write a VNC server", I mean "fix a code sample I found online"
2021-04-08T10:50:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/flux/vnc.lisp
2021-04-08T10:51:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: Now, I just need to figure out how to teach McCLIM how to write to this server
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2021-04-08T10:57:12Z scymtym: fiddlerwoaroof: for a McCLIM backend, you have to decide on the frame management model: should the VNC server expose some sort of virtual desktop with multiple windows ("frames" in CLIM terminology) and window management or should the VNC server correspond to a single window and always show the content of that window?
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2021-04-08T10:59:10Z scymtym: this is an example of the former, that is multiple frames with decorations, etc. in a browser tab: https://techfak.de/~jmoringe/mcclim-broadway-7.ogv
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2021-04-08T11:02:11Z Krystof: wow.
2021-04-08T11:02:27Z Krystof: Are you round-tripping to the server for each input event?
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2021-04-08T11:02:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: That's a cool demo, the issue I always have is the "window in window" paradigm there always feels a bit odd
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2021-04-08T11:15:47Z scymtym: fiddlerwoaroof: yes, there is a websocket connection that sends input events from the javascript client to the server and sends display commands from the server to the javascript client
2021-04-08T11:16:17Z scymtym: Krystof: sorry, that was meant for you
2021-04-08T11:16:37Z scymtym: fiddlerwoaroof: i agree. that's why i brought up the issue
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2021-04-08T11:44:28Z lukego: silasfox: did you just write an irc message that included newlines and indentation? is that possible? <mind-blown.gif>
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2021-04-08T12:04:17Z silasfox: lukego: I copy-pasted from my slime-repl... Apparently that is possible.
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2021-04-08T12:29:23Z SAL9000: lukego: "newlines" in IRC come through as multiple messages, and more than 3-4 such lines usually cause the server to rate-limit you
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2021-04-08T12:39:14Z splittist: scymtym: <mouth open in stunned admiration emoji>
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2021-04-08T13:04:07Z jmercouris: reccommendations on expert systems in CL?
2021-04-08T13:04:37Z jackdaniel: clips ,)
2021-04-08T13:05:18Z jackdaniel: (that was a joke, clips is written in c, but it supports sexpressions)
2021-04-08T13:07:02Z jmercouris: I'm not interested in using C
2021-04-08T13:07:24Z jmercouris: maybe if it is really good I could make a plugin
2021-04-08T13:08:26Z splittist: jmercouris: how much do you need beyond the toy mycin in PAIP?
2021-04-08T13:08:35Z jmercouris: I need something extremely performant
2021-04-08T13:08:58Z jmercouris: I want to identify logical fallacies in documents by extracting rules from them
2021-04-08T13:09:24Z splittist: Where's the expert part?
2021-04-08T13:09:35Z jmercouris: there are rules, and there are questions
2021-04-08T13:09:50Z jmercouris: the questions will be created by the user to determine if a piece of text is logically sound
2021-04-08T13:10:03Z jmercouris: the rules are created by the program analyzing the text
2021-04-08T13:10:11Z jmercouris: as such, there may be many many rules
2021-04-08T13:10:40Z sm2n: that sounds more like a model checker than an expert system
2021-04-08T13:10:47Z sm2n: with some nlp magic
2021-04-08T13:11:46Z splittist: jmercouris: to help my understand, why can't the user read the document?
2021-04-08T13:11:53Z splittist: s/my/me/
2021-04-08T13:12:04Z sm2n: I'm assuming this is some fake news detection thing
2021-04-08T13:12:08Z jackdaniel: it is the full automatization - you don't need to read the document to browse it
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2021-04-08T13:12:40Z jmercouris: sm2n: correct
2021-04-08T13:12:51Z jmercouris: the user should read the document
2021-04-08T13:13:00Z jmercouris: I want some ways to help identify BS on the internet
2021-04-08T13:13:08Z jmercouris: a BS metric if you will, that the user can use to make informed decisions
2021-04-08T13:13:29Z jmercouris: this is one of many models I have in mind...
2021-04-08T13:13:42Z jmercouris: so I wanted to play around with some expert systems
2021-04-08T13:13:54Z jmercouris: see if they could identify logically inconsistent documents
2021-04-08T13:14:01Z splittist: The correct heuristic is, presumably: if it is on the internet, it is BS
2021-04-08T13:14:15Z jmercouris: splittist: I'm afraid that is not useful, or true
2021-04-08T13:14:29Z jmercouris: the very fact that you said that, on the internet, is a fallacy on of itself
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2021-04-08T13:14:35Z splittist: jmercouris: as sm2n says, this is sort of the opposite of what I understand an expert system is
2021-04-08T13:14:41Z sm2n: I don't think using automated nlp is a good idea... it suffers from similar issues as the misinformation generating processes
2021-04-08T13:14:55Z jmercouris: sm2n: how would you tackle this problem?
2021-04-08T13:16:15Z sm2n: I think the general idea is decent though, say you have a document open, maybe you could have a "pane" or something that displays a formalized logical inference tree, in natural deduction form or something
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2021-04-08T13:16:34Z sm2n: the reader could fill it out as they read
2021-04-08T13:16:49Z jmercouris: what is a formalized logical inference tree?
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2021-04-08T13:17:24Z sm2n: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_deduction , though you don't need the fancy deduction
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2021-04-08T13:18:11Z sm2n: if it's sufficiently formalized, you can even pass it to a proof assistant like Z3
2021-04-08T13:18:30Z sm2n: and generate some logical consequences
2021-04-08T13:18:34Z jmercouris: I see what you mean
2021-04-08T13:18:45Z sm2n: *fancy notation, whoops
2021-04-08T13:18:50Z jmercouris: I don't think someone susceptible to 'fake news' will have the rigor to complete such an exercise
2021-04-08T13:18:59Z jmercouris: I could very well be wrong, but I have a strong intuition
2021-04-08T13:19:05Z sm2n: yeah, that is the issue
2021-04-08T13:19:06Z jmercouris: that there is an inverse relationship with intelligence...
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2021-04-08T13:19:12Z splittist: I'm not seeing how computers help here. Take this text: "The LaTeX sources were converted to html using the latex2html program. We fixed many of the glitches by hand, but may have missed some. When in doubt, check your copy of the original paperbound version." What is supposed to happen when I'm browsing that?
2021-04-08T13:19:45Z jmercouris: LaTeX sources were converted to html using the latex2html -> latex2html converts latex to html
2021-04-08T13:20:03Z jmercouris: that's probably about all it could realistically extract
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2021-04-08T13:20:55Z jmercouris: there are only two assertions in the above text
2021-04-08T13:21:02Z _death: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2379#2379
2021-04-08T13:21:02Z jmercouris: well, maybe three
2021-04-08T13:21:22Z sm2n: if you are going to try nlp, I would make it optional
2021-04-08T13:21:41Z jmercouris: _death: :-D always good for a laugh
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2021-04-08T13:21:50Z splittist: Hmm. If I'm reading an article that says "All men are mortal. Socrates is a man. Therefore global warming is [insert conclusion here]" a big red cross appears saying "incorrect inference"?
2021-04-08T13:21:50Z jmercouris: sm2n: of course, all the NLP we have is already optional
2021-04-08T13:21:51Z sm2n: use some nlp feature extraction algorithm to initially populate a deduction tree
2021-04-08T13:22:03Z sm2n: it can then be manually tweaked etc
2021-04-08T13:22:04Z jmercouris: splittist: I should hope so!
2021-04-08T13:22:06Z sm2n: no black boxes
2021-04-08T13:22:15Z jmercouris: no black boxes indeed...
2021-04-08T13:23:26Z sm2n: at least, that is my take, error prone automated processes should augment human reasoning, not replace it
2021-04-08T13:23:38Z jmercouris: absolutely, that's why I have this article I wrote
2021-04-08T13:23:55Z jmercouris: https://nyxt.atlas.engineer/article/dbscan.org
2021-04-08T13:24:07Z jmercouris: our clustering for buffers in the buffer list view is OPTIONAL!
2021-04-08T13:24:12Z jmercouris: and completely configurable/understandable
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2021-04-08T13:25:00Z sm2n: nice
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2021-04-08T13:27:31Z jmercouris: "Computationally augmented browsing"
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2021-04-08T13:33:17Z jackdaniel:  minion: spec with-snake-oil macro
2021-04-08T13:34:05Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: what are you saying?
2021-04-08T13:35:09Z jackdaniel: I am saying that I see plenty of buzzwords that are not ontopic on this channel and could be categorized as a deceptive marketing
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2021-04-08T13:38:33Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: are you saying that I am engaging in deceptive marketing?
2021-04-08T13:40:10Z jackdaniel: no, I am saying that "I see plenty of buzzwords that are not ontopic on this channel and could be categorized as a deceptive marketing"; I'll put an emphasis on the offtopic aspect of that statement
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2021-04-08T14:47:49Z VincentVega: With a macro's lambda list &key, is it possible to identify the order in which the keys were supplied?
2021-04-08T14:47:54Z phoe: no
2021-04-08T14:48:05Z phoe: if you need that, do (&rest args &key ...)
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2021-04-08T14:50:36Z VincentVega: phoe: great, thank you!
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2021-04-08T15:00:52Z jmercouris: phoe: the implementation should know though right?
2021-04-08T15:01:00Z phoe: jmercouris: what do you mean, the implementation?
2021-04-08T15:01:16Z phoe: with &key, the order is absolutely unimportant unless you have duplicates
2021-04-08T15:01:26Z jmercouris: SBCL would know exactly the lambda list passed into a funcall
2021-04-08T15:01:29Z phoe: :foo 1 :bar 2 is the same as :bar 2 :foo 1
2021-04-08T15:01:40Z jmercouris: Sure, SBCL should know what I sent
2021-04-08T15:01:44Z phoe: jmercouris: this isn't really a SBCL issue
2021-04-08T15:02:00Z jmercouris: Wouldnt it be possible though?
2021-04-08T15:02:05Z phoe: every Lisp implementation does know exactly what you send, because it can make it available if you pass &rest
2021-04-08T15:02:22Z jmercouris: I’m not making much sense
2021-04-08T15:02:26Z jmercouris: Forget what I said lol
2021-04-08T15:02:31Z phoe: okay
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2021-04-08T15:48:32Z Josh_2: Ello ello
2021-04-08T15:48:40Z phoe: heyyyy
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2021-04-08T16:03:03Z Josh_2: What crazy thing are we gonna talk about today? How about the performance of CL? jk jk
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2021-04-08T16:31:14Z contrapunctus: Anyone here use redshank? It sounds quite cool but I've not heard much about it.
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2021-04-08T16:33:11Z contrapunctus: It's a bunch of commands for performing some common insertions and modifications in CL code.
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2021-04-08T16:43:47Z ck_: I have used it sometimes in the past, yes. Some functions more than others, mostly the moderately simple stuff like extract-defun
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2021-04-08T16:44:43Z ck_: it didn't feel like a significant improvement over manually (par-)editing; maybe I didn't spend enough time with it
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2021-04-08T16:51:47Z attila_lendvai: is rpav of c2ffi fame around?
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2021-04-08T16:52:42Z mfiano: attila_lendvai: He stopped lisping a few years ago
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2021-04-08T16:53:03Z mfiano: You can find him in our gamedev channel, #bufferswap if you need him immediately though.
2021-04-08T16:53:18Z Xach: stopped?
2021-04-08T16:53:19Z attila_lendvai: mfiano, much appreciated, thanks!
2021-04-08T16:54:09Z attila_lendvai is trying to compile c2ffi on nixos
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2021-04-08T17:15:54Z Josh_2: Shinmera: have you used Chirp recently?
2021-04-08T17:16:29Z Shinmera: I used it approximately a day ago to post a drawing.
2021-04-08T17:16:34Z Josh_2: Okay
2021-04-08T17:16:46Z Shinmera: Why does this matter? What is your actual question?
2021-04-08T17:17:17Z Josh_2: I'm getting an error trying to quickload it
2021-04-08T17:17:33Z Josh_2: "don't know how to REQUIRE sb-rotate-byte"
2021-04-08T17:17:46Z Josh_2: but it worked when I attempted to quickload in a fresh image
2021-04-08T17:18:08Z Shinmera: that's an ironclad issue.
2021-04-08T17:19:10Z Josh_2: I guess I will just redumping this image with chirp as a dependency, see if that works
2021-04-08T17:19:48Z Shinmera: whatever the case the issue is not with chirp.
2021-04-08T17:20:12Z Josh_2: Okay np
2021-04-08T17:20:16Z Josh_2: new image worked anyhow
2021-04-08T17:26:05Z jmercouris: I've noticed when loading my own code which depends on other libraries, slime compilation will report their warnings, any way to get rid of those?
2021-04-08T17:26:26Z jmercouris: I'm not interested in stuff like: Unknown location: redefinition: redefining CL-PREVALENCE:GET-ID in DEFGENERIC
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2021-04-08T17:29:38Z shka_: jmercouris: yes, you can rebind the error stream
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2021-04-08T17:33:44Z Josh_2: Shinmera: when using (complete-authentication <pin>) pin is supposed to be the url returned by initiate-authentication?
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2021-04-08T17:34:28Z Shinmera: no, the pin you get from visiting that page.
2021-04-08T17:34:34Z Josh_2: well
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2021-04-08T17:34:36Z Josh_2: that makese sense
2021-04-08T17:35:00Z Shinmera: it says that in the readme.
2021-04-08T17:36:23Z Josh_2: oh yeh :P
2021-04-08T17:37:27Z jmercouris: shka_: ?
2021-04-08T17:37:28Z Nilby: jmercouris: My advice is always wrong, so you definitely shouldn't do this: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2380#2380
2021-04-08T17:37:41Z jmercouris: Nilby: true true, you and me give wrong advice
2021-04-08T17:37:53Z jmercouris: we should be ashamed, really
2021-04-08T17:38:51Z jmercouris: lol, I like the macro name
2021-04-08T17:41:38Z Nilby: mini DTWT posse (*8
2021-04-08T17:45:01Z _death: you could also fix the warnings.. but that advice is the wrongest
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2021-04-08T17:49:57Z Nilby: (ql:system-apropos "") | wc -l ⇒ 4491 , so that might take a while. My systems have no unintentional warnings
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2021-04-08T17:51:36Z Josh_2: Yay I tweeted using Chirp
2021-04-08T17:52:56Z _death: Nilby: hah! (length (ql:system-apropos-list "")) => 4726
2021-04-08T17:53:22Z Xach: (length (ql:provided-systems t))
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2021-04-08T17:54:37Z Nilby: I think I have a lot of stuff I forgot about in my local-projects
2021-04-08T17:55:53Z Josh_2: Shinmera: do you have any example code showing how to upload an image?
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2021-04-08T17:56:23Z shka_: jmercouris: sorry, was afk
2021-04-08T17:56:47Z shka_: jmercouris: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node183.html
2021-04-08T17:57:03Z shka_: notice *error-output*
2021-04-08T17:57:38Z shka_: so you can https://github.com/sirherrbatka/vellum/blob/1315f04382547f938f4569f2b99ba038e93f75b6/run-tests.lisp#L11
2021-04-08T17:57:55Z shka_: however, this will muffle ALL conditions
2021-04-08T17:58:03Z shka_: or rather: warnings
2021-04-08T17:58:10Z shka_: which is perhaps not exactly what you want
2021-04-08T17:58:10Z jmercouris: right, I'm only interested in other libraries
2021-04-08T17:58:13Z jmercouris: it's OK
2021-04-08T17:58:16Z jmercouris: I will just have to live with it for now
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2021-04-08T18:08:40Z Josh_2: yay I did it!
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2021-04-08T18:17:55Z Nilby: I still have a CL twitter client with a TUI back from when you had to send your password in cleartext over http, but then I never looked a twitter again.
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2021-04-08T18:22:18Z Josh_2: Probably for the best
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2021-04-08T18:22:56Z Nilby: I'm simultaneously atounded at how hard it is now, and by Shinmera's productivity.
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2021-04-08T18:28:36Z Shinmera: Aw, thanks
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2021-04-08T18:59:38Z Josh_2: Shinmera: the fun (statuses/update-with-media ..) says it takes either a pathname, usb-8 array or a base64 encoded string (in the docstring), I have just given it a usb-8 array and I get the error "Wanted one of (FUNCTION FILE-STREAM STREAM PATHNAME)."
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2021-04-08T19:02:06Z Shinmera: Oh well.
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2021-04-08T19:04:18Z Josh_2: I will just use a temp file
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2021-04-08T19:20:28Z jmercouris: Josh_2: what is a usb array?
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2021-04-08T19:20:46Z sm2n: unsigned byte
2021-04-08T19:22:08Z jmercouris: I see
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2021-04-08T19:58:59Z Josh_2: I got it working by just writing to a tmp file
2021-04-08T19:59:07Z Josh_2: obviously this is less than ideal but whatever
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2021-04-08T20:11:43Z Josh_2: Shinmera: once I have my pin and I've verified, do I ever have to do it again?
2021-04-08T20:12:02Z Shinmera: Please just read the docs.
2021-04-08T20:14:42Z Josh_2: *sigh*
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2021-04-08T20:15:33Z Nilby: Every minute we distract Shinmera is like an hour of normal Lisper time.
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2021-04-08T20:18:38Z contrapunctus: Uh, what's going on here :\ (ql:quickload :mcclim) => System "mcclim" not found 🤔
2021-04-08T20:20:25Z phoe: contrapunctus: ql:update-all-dists?
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2021-04-08T20:20:41Z contrapunctus: Same goes for, say, alexandria
2021-04-08T20:20:49Z phoe: huh
2021-04-08T20:21:00Z phoe: do you even have the quicklisp dist?
2021-04-08T20:21:11Z contrapunctus: phoe: yup, tried that. Although rather suspiciously, it said "1 dist to check"
2021-04-08T20:21:15Z phoe: (ql-dist:dist "quicklisp")
2021-04-08T20:21:18Z phoe: what does this return?
2021-04-08T20:21:40Z phoe: and asdf:*central-registry* - what is the value of this?
2021-04-08T20:21:43Z contrapunctus: phoe: #<QL-DIST:DIST quicklisp 2021-02-28>
2021-04-08T20:21:49Z Bike: "1 dist to check" is what it usually says.
2021-04-08T20:21:57Z phoe: so the dist is there, okay
2021-04-08T20:22:15Z phoe: can ASDF find quicklisp systems though?
2021-04-08T20:22:37Z contrapunctus: phoe: asdf:*central-registry* => (#P"/home/anon/quicklisp/quicklisp/")
2021-04-08T20:23:12Z Shinmera: Josh_2: oAuth tokens don't expire unless they're manually revoked. You have to actually save the info though.
2021-04-08T20:23:13Z phoe: huh
2021-04-08T20:23:17Z phoe: so (asdf:find-system :alexandria) should find the system
2021-04-08T20:23:49Z mfiano: First check (ql:where-is-system :alexandria) to see if Quicklisp even has it downloaded
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2021-04-08T20:24:09Z contrapunctus: phoe: Component "alexandria" not found
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2021-04-08T20:24:48Z Bike: have you done anything weird lately? deleted systems.txt or something?
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2021-04-08T20:25:08Z contrapunctus: mfiano: nil 🤔 but I have a /home/anon/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/archives/alexandria-20200925-git.tgz
2021-04-08T20:25:37Z contrapunctus: Bike: upgraded from Debian Stable to Testing, if that's weird 🙂
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2021-04-08T20:26:09Z Bike: do you have cl-asdf or anything installed? maybe your global asdf configuration is something odd now
2021-04-08T20:26:10Z mfiano: but do you have a quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/alexandria-20200925-git/
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2021-04-08T20:26:27Z phoe: right, do you have any cl-* packages installed from apt?
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2021-04-08T20:27:20Z contrapunctus: Oh. I did install cl-asdf, because before that, SBCL was not seeing ASDF 🤔
2021-04-08T20:27:31Z phoe: SBCL should have ASDF bundled
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2021-04-08T20:27:46Z contrapunctus: My thoughts exactly 🙂
2021-04-08T20:27:47Z phoe: and quicklisp should load it automatically via #+sbcl (require :asdf)
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2021-04-08T20:28:03Z phoe: and if for some reason it isn't available, quicklisp has its own fallback asdf that it uses for such situations
2021-04-08T20:28:16Z phoe: but this should never happen because SBCL has its ASDF bundled, like, in general
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2021-04-08T20:30:04Z contrapunctus: Removed cl-asdf
2021-04-08T20:30:29Z phoe: remove the fasl cache, restart, let's see if this works better
2021-04-08T20:31:11Z contrapunctus: ASDF is being detected now, but the Quicklisp issue persists
2021-04-08T20:31:29Z phoe: does it still not see alexandria?
2021-04-08T20:32:09Z contrapunctus: phoe: Where's the FASL cache? O.o Did restart, it does not.
2021-04-08T20:32:26Z phoe: contrapunctus: any other cl-foo packages on your system?
2021-04-08T20:32:39Z phoe: contrapunctus: ~/.cache/common-lisp/
2021-04-08T20:32:40Z mfiano: Normally $XDG_CACHE_HOME/common-lisp/
2021-04-08T20:32:57Z contrapunctus: phoe: cl-quiclisp :o
2021-04-08T20:32:59Z phoe: listen to mfiano, he is wise in the ways of the XDG
2021-04-08T20:33:01Z phoe: contrapunctus: oh shit
2021-04-08T20:33:05Z phoe: well, remove that too!
2021-04-08T20:33:09Z contrapunctus: * cl-quicklisp
2021-04-08T20:33:11Z mfiano: Well, (typep *debian-testing* '(and still-older-than-crap unstable) ; => T
2021-04-08T20:33:23Z phoe: mfiano: likely not a testing issue
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2021-04-08T20:35:59Z contrapunctus: phoe: removed cl-quicklisp, deleted the cache, restarted Emacs, still the same Quicklisp issue x-P
2021-04-08T20:36:25Z mfiano: I assume the stacktrace doesn't have any meaningful locals?
2021-04-08T20:36:48Z phoe: well, hmmmm
2021-04-08T20:37:12Z phoe: do you have the alexandria asd file anywhere in ~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/?
2021-04-08T20:37:30Z contrapunctus: mfiano: http://ix.io/2VqF
2021-04-08T20:37:32Z mfiano: Yes I asked that
2021-04-08T20:37:41Z phoe: yes, but I did not see the answer
2021-04-08T20:37:45Z mfiano: No expanded frames
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2021-04-08T20:38:24Z contrapunctus: phoe: there's a /home/anon/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/alexandria-20200925-git/alexandria.asd
2021-04-08T20:39:11Z contrapunctus: Maybe I can nuke ~/quicklisp and reinstall? 🤔
2021-04-08T20:39:14Z phoe: so for whatever reason ASDF does not see this
2021-04-08T20:39:20Z phoe: contrapunctus: I think you could try
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2021-04-08T20:39:33Z phoe: back your local projects up, nuke, reinstall from quicklisp.org
2021-04-08T20:47:27Z contrapunctus: Ah, finally \o/
2021-04-08T20:47:46Z contrapunctus: Thanks everyone ^_^
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2021-04-09T03:02:25Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-04-09T03:07:11Z Josh_2: Mornin' beach
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2021-04-09T03:39:59Z moon-child: (let ((quote 5)) (+ . '6))
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2021-04-09T03:40:44Z beach: Those are amusing.
2021-04-09T03:41:09Z beach: Now try to get Emacs to recognize the role of every element of it.
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2021-04-09T03:41:37Z beach: You should be able to write (let ('5)...)
2021-04-09T03:42:31Z moon-child: ha
2021-04-09T03:42:44Z moon-child: how about this one: (defun f (&key '5) quote)
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2021-04-09T03:44:28Z beach: Using #' is fun too, since FUNCTION can be used as a lexical variable as well.
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2021-04-09T03:47:02Z beach: (let ('5) (let (#'quote) function)) for instance. :)
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2021-04-09T04:19:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: (let ((quote 5)) (+ . '6)) is even valid emacs-lisp
2021-04-09T04:21:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: Both of them are, in fact
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2021-04-09T04:22:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: (let ('5) (let (#'quote) (cons . #'quote)))
2021-04-09T04:22:45Z beach: I guess in the spirit of the first example, I should have written (let ('5) (let (#'quote) (+ . #'6)))
2021-04-09T04:22:55Z beach: Yes, stuff like that.
2021-04-09T04:24:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: (let*('5 #'quote)(+ . #'quote))
2021-04-09T04:25:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: This is how I'm going to write all my code from now on
2021-04-09T04:25:19Z beach: Heh.
2021-04-09T04:25:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: save characters
2021-04-09T04:25:47Z no-defun-allowed: SLIME would print the lambda list of a mapping function I wrote as #'SEQUENCE.
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2021-04-09T04:59:09Z beach: no-defun-allowed: That's a very good example of why I want something better than Emacs for writing Common Lisp code.
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2021-04-09T05:00:39Z moon-child: that doesn't seem like a fundamental limitation of emacs though, only an incidental result of slime's implementation; no?
2021-04-09T05:01:13Z beach: Sure.  When I said "Emacs" I meant "Emacs + SLIME".
2021-04-09T05:01:22Z beach: Sorry about that.
2021-04-09T05:07:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, the result there is from the implementation's printer, right?
2021-04-09T05:08:17Z beach: That could be.
2021-04-09T05:08:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: (princ-to-string '(function foo)) #| => "#'FOO" |#
2021-04-09T05:08:58Z beach: Yes, I see.
2021-04-09T05:09:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's fundamentally ambiguous whether the intention here is to print code or a list, as far as I can see
2021-04-09T05:09:19Z beach: If you use the printer for everything, sure.
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2021-04-09T05:10:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I htink you need something like presentation types
2021-04-09T05:10:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: Or the first argument to MAP
2021-04-09T05:10:19Z beach: One could, for example, show the characters in the source code that defined the item to be printed.
2021-04-09T05:10:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: Kent Pitman calls it something like "intentional types"
2021-04-09T05:10:35Z beach: Then you would get the same representation as the programmer wanted when the code was written.
2021-04-09T05:11:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, that doesn't help when you're formatting the output of MACROEXPAND-1, though
2021-04-09T05:12:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's the same problem as here: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/EQUAL.html
2021-04-09T05:12:13Z beach: True, but that use case I am willing to bet is not as frequent.
2021-04-09T05:12:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm not sure
2021-04-09T05:12:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: I use tools like emacs' macrostep expander quite a bit when I'm trying to figure out what a macro does
2021-04-09T05:13:00Z beach: Perhaps I am generalizing too much, but I almost never look at the result of a macro expansion.
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2021-04-09T05:13:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I suspect this is a workflow difference
2021-04-09T05:13:48Z beach: I see macros the say I see function, i.e., as abstractions.  Only when I write the macro itself would I be interested in how it expands.
2021-04-09T05:14:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: When I decide that a macro was a bad idea, I usually MACROEXPAND-1 and replace the source with the expansion
2021-04-09T05:15:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: then fix it
2021-04-09T05:15:39Z beach: This is one reason why I made a rule that SICL macros should do a lot of syntax checking, so that conditions would be shown in terms of the macro call, rather than in terms of its expansion.
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2021-04-09T05:20:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think if you continue down that route, you end up writing macros that expand to CLOS objects
2021-04-09T05:23:01Z beach: Not sure what you mean by "CLOS object", but if you mean "standard object" then that would be some very useless macros, since those are self-evaluating.
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2021-04-09T05:24:04Z beach: ... unless you implementation uses standard objects for conses and symbols, of course.
2021-04-09T05:27:19Z sm2n: beach, correct me if I'm wrong, but that kind of syntax checking doesn't compose too well
2021-04-09T05:27:45Z beach: sm2n: Can you elaborate on that?
2021-04-09T05:27:48Z sm2n: i.e if I have a macro that expands into a macro, and the second macro has malformed syntax, the thrown error won't be in terms of the code I wrote
2021-04-09T05:28:16Z contrapunctus: moon-child: `(let ((quote 5)) (+ . '6))` dafuq :o explain?
2021-04-09T05:28:39Z sm2n: contrapunctus, '6 is expanded by the reader to (quote 6)
2021-04-09T05:29:13Z sm2n: and (+ . (quote 6) is exactly (+ quote 6), which has quote bound lexically to 5 by the let
2021-04-09T05:29:18Z sm2n: so it evaluates to 11
2021-04-09T05:29:25Z beach: sm2n: Well, if the macro is meant to be used as an abstraction, it is usually  clear what the different arguments stand for, so the syntax of those can then be checked.  Perhaps not fully, but I am guessing a lot better than what is typically done.
2021-04-09T05:29:35Z contrapunctus: sm2n: oh lol. Thanks.
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2021-04-09T05:32:23Z sm2n: beach, I'm not sure how what you are saying applies to my scenario
2021-04-09T05:32:56Z beach: That may be because I probably didn't quite understand it.
2021-04-09T05:34:14Z sm2n: (defmacro bar (a b) ...) (defmacro foo () (bar baz)) (foo)
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2021-04-09T05:34:56Z sm2n: no matter how much syntax checking you have in bar, the error thrown won't be in (foo), because macroexpansion destroys that context
2021-04-09T05:35:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: foo can't give a useful error message in terms of bar's input syntax, right?
2021-04-09T05:35:09Z sm2n: yeah
2021-04-09T05:35:30Z beach: sm2n: You are talking about errors signaled (not "thrown") at run time?
2021-04-09T05:35:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: sorry, opposite, bar can't ... in terms of foo's ...
2021-04-09T05:36:01Z sm2n: macroexpansion time, sorry I'm being loose with the terminology
2021-04-09T05:36:30Z sm2n: (foo) will fail at macroexpansion time because (bar baz) is invalid syntax
2021-04-09T05:36:49Z beach: Ah, yes, I see.  That's the reason for another SICL rule, namely to report errors in terms of source expressions in context.
2021-04-09T05:37:14Z sm2n: how do you accomplish that in this case?
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2021-04-09T05:38:09Z beach: But your scenario is definitely not the one I was thinking of.  In this case, my scenario would be the time when the macro FOO was written.
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2021-04-09T05:39:08Z sm2n: I don't really think it's much of an issue because CL isn't conventionally written with deeply nested macros from what I can tell
2021-04-09T05:39:20Z beach: There would be some highlight of the (BAR BAZ) expression with an indication that the number of arguments is wrong.
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2021-04-09T05:40:05Z beach: sm2n: That's probably true.
2021-04-09T05:40:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: Racket's macroexpander is basically designed to solve this problem
2021-04-09T05:40:17Z sm2n: I brought this up because this was the motivation for the racket people to move to syntax objects as the result of macroexpansion, which is close to what fiddlerwoaroof was implying by macroexpanding into CLOS objects
2021-04-09T05:40:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: yeah
2021-04-09T05:40:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: If you have mid-level macros that expand to standard objects, and high-level macros that expand the standard objects to conses, you can preserve all sorts of metadata
2021-04-09T05:40:55Z sm2n: but that's because their whole thing is lots of deeply nested macros
2021-04-09T05:41:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: Like types to use for static type checking
2021-04-09T05:42:01Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: I think I see what you mean now.  Not that the expansion itself is a standard object, but something like (FOO <standard-object>).  Yes?
2021-04-09T05:42:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah
2021-04-09T05:42:21Z beach: That's an interesting idea.
2021-04-09T05:42:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: Or, (foo (bar)) and then bar expands to (foo #<standard-object>), which foo expands itself
2021-04-09T05:43:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: Which can enable relatively safe code-walking without implementation support
2021-04-09T05:43:06Z beach: Yes, I see.  I need to give this idea some more thought.
2021-04-09T05:43:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think reading your paper on SICL loop was the first time I thought of this idea
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2021-04-09T05:44:19Z beach: Because the clauses are represented as standard objects?
2021-04-09T05:44:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah
2021-04-09T05:44:31Z beach: I can see that, yes.
2021-04-09T05:44:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, (expand-loop #<for-as-clause> #<termination-test>)
2021-04-09T05:44:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: Would be the last layer of expansion
2021-04-09T05:44:51Z beach: Sure, yes.
2021-04-09T05:45:26Z no-defun-allowed: I think I was approaching something like that this morning to simplify code generation for a new project. It would use vectorised loads, stores and comparison operators, but my compiler would generate something like (load #<some policy representation> vector n), which would then be expanded using a generic function that the client would specialize.
2021-04-09T05:45:26Z beach: I never thought about generalizing it to more mundane macros though.  Food for thought.  Thanks!
2021-04-09T05:46:15Z beach: no-defun-allowed: Interesting.
2021-04-09T05:46:39Z beach: Now I have something to contemplate today during breaks and such.
2021-04-09T05:47:10Z no-defun-allowed: It's still very fuzzy though, and I've only written down a summary of the protocol for the rest of the project so far.
2021-04-09T05:49:30Z moon-child: (aside: the above discussion of macros and abstraction makes me think that sigils are superior to namespaces.  Imagine we use & for function values, % for macros and builtins, and $ for variables.  Then the 'quote' symbol used by the ' reader macro cannot possibly collide with a local variable which is also named quote)
2021-04-09T05:52:53Z no-defun-allowed: (The end goal is to make my regular expression compiler more modular, and allow the client to generate specialised scanning code, based on CPU features and/or any specific knowledge of the text to match.)
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2021-04-09T06:00:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: no-defun-allowed: if you need complex regular expressions to benchmark, this code here generates some amazing regular expressions: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/rfc2822/rfc2822/blob/master/regex.lisp#L118
2021-04-09T06:00:51Z no-defun-allowed: Terrifying.
2021-04-09T06:01:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: I tried printing one out once to see why CL-PPCRE was taking so long to match something like "foo" <foo@bar.com>
2021-04-09T06:01:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: The string version of the regex was like five screens long
2021-04-09T06:06:17Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: In Cleavir, we get some of the benefits of using standard objects in macros, in that the compiler manipulates CSTs rather than expressions, and after macro expansion, it reconstructs a CST from the original one and the expression returned by the macro expander.
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2021-04-09T06:08:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah
2021-04-09T06:09:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's occasionally seemed to me that the distinction between a compiler and a macroexpander is sort of arbitrary
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2021-04-09T06:11:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: They're both programs that take a datastructure that represents a program in one way and turn it into a datastructure that represents the same program in a different way.
2021-04-09T06:12:59Z Nilby: If I'm remembering correctly I think agnostic-lizard uses a technique something like that, wrapping interim macro expansion in objects.
2021-04-09T06:13:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: One interest I've had is trying to pull some of the traditional compiler stuff into the macroexpansion phase, because that phase has always seemed easier to think about (to me)
2021-04-09T06:14:43Z beach: Yeah, that's a good idea, provided that errors and warnings can still be meaningful to the programmer.
2021-04-09T06:14:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: Nilby: I believe I remember seeing something like that in the presentation on that tool
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2021-04-09T06:47:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: no-defun-allowed: can you re implementation efficiently merge two matchers?
2021-04-09T06:48:06Z no-defun-allowed: Would you mind defining "merging"?
2021-04-09T06:48:17Z no-defun-allowed: I use the derivative method, so I can do intersections on regular expressions.
2021-04-09T06:49:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: Basically, I've had this sort of problem before: I have N regex-action pairs (think awk-style programs, or HTTP routing) and I want to pick an action doing as little work matching as possible
2021-04-09T06:50:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think the derivative-style matching would work for this, now that I think about it
2021-04-09T06:51:01Z no-defun-allowed: After testing, I can only conclude that submatching here is painfully broken.
2021-04-09T06:52:03Z no-defun-allowed sighs and goes to plan another method for submatching.
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2021-04-09T06:58:09Z contrapunctus: Would you folks recommend using Clostrum for sandboxing Lisp programs? Or is there another way? It seems like a complicated problem.
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2021-04-09T06:58:51Z Shinmera: the only way is to either restrict the programs to the point of being useless, or running another process.
2021-04-09T06:59:07Z Shinmera: or actually another OS, probably.
2021-04-09T07:00:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: In theory, you could spawn another process and use the cgroups APIs to sandbox it
2021-04-09T07:01:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: But what's possible here is entirely dependent on your threat model
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2021-04-09T07:05:03Z beach: contrapunctus: It is not quite as simple as that.  Let me explain...
2021-04-09T07:05:24Z contrapunctus: fiddlerwoaroof: to be specific, I don't want the program to (unless the user permits them) make any network requests or access the filesystem outside of its private storage. (There's also some resource limiting.)
2021-04-09T07:05:38Z beach: contrapunctus: To get the benefits of Clostrum, you need to be able to evaluate expressions "relative to" a Clostrum environment, so you need a specific evaluator.
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2021-04-09T07:06:11Z beach: contrapunctus: We have such an evaluator (obviously), but things are not set up for general use.  Currently, it is used only in SICL bootstrapping.
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2021-04-09T07:07:15Z beach: contrapunctus: The existing evaluator turns a source file into a CST (using Eclector), and then the CST into an AST (using Cleavir) and then it uses the AST evaluator of SICL that does the job.
2021-04-09T07:08:10Z beach: One day, I may turn these tools into something generally usable, but I don't have the time to do that now.  Perhaps someone else would be interested in such a project.
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2021-04-09T07:28:55Z no-defun-allowed: As with most of the engine, I have no idea what I did exactly, but submatching appears to work properly now.
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2021-04-09T07:32:39Z contrapunctus: beach: I see. I feel quite sad when I think of how, on one hand, it's desirable to have programs in e.g. documents, and yet the state of sandboxing and resource limiting leaves much to be desired.
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2021-04-09T07:35:08Z beach: contrapunctus: I understand.  I wish someone would take on the project I suggested.  What you would like to see is something many people seem to want.
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2021-04-09T09:32:44Z ikrabbe: Good morning everyone
2021-04-09T09:32:54Z no-defun-allowed: Good morning ikrabbe!
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2021-04-09T09:33:55Z ikrabbe: I often try to write macros that call functions from their arguments: (defmacro mac (x) `(,x y))
2021-04-09T09:35:10Z ikrabbe: I can guard this call with fboundp of course (defmacro mac (x) `(if (fboundp ',x) (,x y))
2021-04-09T09:36:23Z ikrabbe: ) but this only works for defun'ed objects, not for (labels ((x () )))) (does it work for (lambdas?))
2021-04-09T09:37:22Z ikrabbe: Is their any way to check if ,x is a function defined by labels?
2021-04-09T09:37:40Z lotuseater: or try with APPLY/FUNCALL
2021-04-09T09:37:54Z no-defun-allowed: In the case of the MAC you wrote, the implementation will usually signal a WARNING at compile-time if the function is not bound, so you shouldn't have to worry about it.
2021-04-09T09:38:57Z no-defun-allowed: Though I wonder if there is something you can do with the CLtL2 environment introspection extension which many implementations provide (given that FBOUNDP does not take an environment argument, but you can get an environment with that information from a macro).
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2021-04-09T09:42:05Z ikrabbe: I wonder that there is obviously no way to do it.
2021-04-09T09:42:50Z ikrabbe: though possibly through environment introspection
2021-04-09T09:44:38Z no-defun-allowed: ikrabbe: This implementation of MAC generates (redundant) warnings for unbound function names: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2381
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2021-04-09T09:47:15Z no-defun-allowed: That might only work on SBCL, but I found a trivial-cltl2 system on Quicklisp which should be more portable.
2021-04-09T09:47:19Z edgar-rft: A macro-lambda-list has an optional &environment parameter to look-up lexically bound functtions (flet, labels, etc.) but I have no clue how that works.
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2021-04-09T09:59:04Z ikrabbe: no-defun-allowed: What I actually miss is a branch for cond, when I parse such arguments: (say "Good morning" (user 10))
2021-04-09T09:59:56Z ikrabbe: (defmacro say (&rest x) (mapcar (lambda (o) (typecase o (sequence (if t `(,(car o) ,@(cdr o))) (print o)) (t (print o)))) x))
2021-04-09T10:01:06Z ikrabbe: This is an error of course, as "Good morning" is a sequence also. I need a cond statement if (car o) is callable.
2021-04-09T10:02:33Z no-defun-allowed: Would you not want to test for the LIST type instead of SEQUENCE? And then I suppose (equal `(,(car o) ,@(cdr o)) o)
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2021-04-09T10:08:22Z ikrabbe: no-defun-allowed: list or sequence, the problem of the sequence can easily be overcome by deciding on strings before. My problem is still the missing condition.
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2021-04-09T10:11:52Z ikrabbe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2382#2382
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2021-04-09T10:15:42Z no-defun-allowed: Are you trying to print at macroexpansion time? Local functions will not exist at compile time and cannot be called.
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2021-04-09T10:36:10Z ikrabbe: no, that was just too short, but I begin to understand, that I should define all callable functions for a macro expansion.
2021-04-09T10:37:00Z edgar-rft: I just was going to say "why does that thing to be a macro at all when a function will do the same".
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2021-04-09T10:38:48Z edgar-rft: *need* to be a macro...
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2021-04-09T10:44:27Z ikrabbe: it does not need to be a macro. But then I need to call it as (say '("Good morning" (user 10)))
2021-04-09T10:46:18Z ikrabbe: I just wanted to shorten the example
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2021-04-09T10:55:14Z edgar-rft: It was not meant as a negative critic, I only wanted to know if there is some reason that I can't see from the example code. Writing macros needs to care a lot more about corner cases than writing functions, as you already found out youself :-)
2021-04-09T10:57:47Z no-defun-allowed: Does it? You could write (defun say (&rest r) (mapcar #'print r)) to get (say "Good morning" (user 10)) to print "Good morning" then the result of (user 10)
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2021-04-09T11:07:05Z ikrabbe: no-defun-allowed: actually print is just the test application. Depending on the situation I want (user 10) to be evaluated later. For the terminal it might be (print (user 10)), or in clim it could be (write-string (user 10)) or (present (user 10) 'username)
2021-04-09T11:07:38Z ikrabbe: Here you can see the the present call is affected by the object.
2021-04-09T11:08:24Z ikrabbe: when i do (defun say (&rest r)) the evaluation of (user 10) will likely be a string, but I lost the information that it is a user
2021-04-09T11:25:41Z lotuseater: so you could use a struct or class for users :)
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2021-04-09T11:30:13Z mmontone: Hello. Does anyone know if there's a way of getting the list of packages loaded by a particular ASDF system?
2021-04-09T11:31:28Z ikrabbe: lotuseater: I could do many things, but I want to decide what to do, when I know anything about the output medium. When I write such a say statement in a html context, I might want to link to a user account... and user is just a simple example of what is possible
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2021-04-09T11:36:21Z Xach: mmontone: packages or systems?
2021-04-09T11:36:24Z lotuseater: ok
2021-04-09T11:37:12Z mmontone: @xach I need the packages loaded by a particular ASDF system.
2021-04-09T11:37:55Z Xach: mmontone: i don't believe there is any easy way. a system may cause other systems to load that define more and more packages that aren't directly loaded by that system.
2021-04-09T11:37:59Z mmontone: I know it is probably not possible.
2021-04-09T11:38:20Z Xach: mmontone: but you could look at interceding at certain points and comparing snapshots of (list-all-packages)
2021-04-09T11:40:27Z mmontone: I thought perhaps there was some trick, like parsing ASDF system and files, or perhaps from swank information, but I don't think there's something. And I need it to be fast and lightweight, I don't want to trigger some file system processing or something like that, because I'm trying to implement an on-line documentation tool.
2021-04-09T11:41:06Z Xach: mmontone: like looking through sources for defsystem forms?
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2021-04-09T11:41:29Z mmontone: Yes. But if there's better than that, I'd like to know :)
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2021-04-09T11:41:59Z mmontone: But I don't think so ...
2021-04-09T11:42:01Z Xach: mmontone: i don't think there is any way aside from loading the asdf system and looking at the state of the package system.
2021-04-09T11:42:26Z Xach: you could do that with a CL that has a hook to tell you when a new package is made.
2021-04-09T11:42:42Z Xach: or any number of other hacks
2021-04-09T11:42:53Z mmontone: I'm working with already loaded ASDF systems.
2021-04-09T11:43:47Z mmontone: Yes..probably not possible. I was just asking just in case. Thanks for the input Xach.
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2021-04-09T11:46:44Z jcowan: *macroexpand-hook* is presumably the way to look for defsystems dynamically, but
2021-04-09T11:47:02Z Xach: mmontone: another option is to look at the xref data for packages, and see if the source file is in a particular known system
2021-04-09T11:47:10Z Xach: make-package complicates things
2021-04-09T11:47:25Z mmontone: yes, that would be close. I could approach it like that ...
2021-04-09T11:48:41Z jcowan: s/, but//
2021-04-09T11:49:32Z mmontone: jcowan: I don't understand what you mean about *macroexpand-hook*
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2021-04-09T11:58:02Z mmontone: I'm using Emacs Info mode to display Common Lisp documentation on the fly.
2021-04-09T11:58:07Z mmontone: https://drive.google.com/file/d/17uGr0B1OVc6nX9f73p3Hhqn5jRSx6bY8/view?usp=sharing
2021-04-09T11:58:21Z mmontone: I'm having some fun with this. There are nice possibilities.
2021-04-09T11:59:39Z lotuseater: oh cool
2021-04-09T12:01:06Z mmontone: Occurred to me when I was using slime completion to see what some package provided, and I couldn't see much from there, docstrings, etc. So I thought that was not the right way, there could be better ...
2021-04-09T12:02:06Z lotuseater: i set *MACROEXPAND-HOOK* to NIL, just for the fun and look what it will say
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2021-04-09T13:14:33Z drl: Why is this no longer working: (let ((target-email-address (concatenate 'string "to=" (getf record :e-mail))))
2021-04-09T13:14:34Z drl:                          (uiop:run-program "/home/l/Downloads/thunderbird/thunderbird" (list "-compose" target-email-address)))
2021-04-09T13:15:44Z drl: This works (from the command line): [~]% Downloads/thunderbird/thunderbird "-compose" "to=FortChicag@aol.com"
2021-04-09T13:16:25Z Bike: in what way is it not working and what does target-email-address end up as
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2021-04-09T13:18:27Z drl: Bike, I get "odd number of &KEY arguments" error.
2021-04-09T13:18:42Z Bike: on what function
2021-04-09T13:19:11Z Bike: wlel, it looks like run-program takes keyword arguments
2021-04-09T13:19:37Z Bike: i think you might mean (uiop:run-program (list "/home..." "-compose" target-email-address))?
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2021-04-09T13:20:45Z drl: This was working until I upgraded to a new version of Thunderbird.
2021-04-09T13:21:16Z Bike: i don't know what to tell you. as far as i can tell this is how run-program has worked since 2017
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2021-04-09T13:21:35Z Bike: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/uiop.html#UIOP_002fRUN_002dPROGRAM here is the documentation's description
2021-04-09T13:22:22Z _death: maybe drl "switched" from sb-ext to uiop, thinking they have the same interface
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2021-04-09T13:23:46Z drl: Bike, thanks. I'll check that out.
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2021-04-09T13:29:31Z drl: _death, no, I didn't switch from sb-ext to uiop.
2021-04-09T13:30:28Z phoe: (uiop:run-program "..." (list ...)) isn't a valid call though
2021-04-09T13:30:31Z phoe: weird stuff if it worked
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2021-04-09T13:39:01Z drl: Bike, what you said I might mean works. Thank you very much.
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2021-04-09T13:43:52Z drl: I don't remember making any changes, but maybe I did.
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2021-04-09T14:13:36Z rumbler31_: hey all, trying out ql:bundle-systems.  I am trying to make a reproducible build of a local-project, and I've managed to make a bundle of its dependencies (but I can't seem to include the local-project itself).  If I were to load the bundle.lisp, how do I then load the local-project without loading quicklisp?
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2021-04-09T14:15:29Z jackdaniel: rumbler31_: this function has a keyword argument include-local-projects
2021-04-09T14:16:01Z rumbler31_: I see that now hehe
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2021-04-09T14:16:52Z rumbler31_: its still complaining that it can't find my local project
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2021-04-09T14:32:28Z rumbler31_: seems like a local-projects folder is being created in the bundle but the original local-project filde ris not being moved in.  I'll see if I can debug that
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2021-04-09T14:43:09Z rumbler31_: I swear I did this exact same thing a moment ago but now its working for some reason
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2021-04-09T14:51:46Z rumbler31_: copying all of local projects seems excessive but I suppose the answer to that would be "patches welcome"
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2021-04-09T14:58:51Z Xach: rumbler31_: there isn't an automatic way, but you could copy your local project into the bundle's local-projects directory.
2021-04-09T14:59:09Z Xach: that is loaded automatically but does not involve quicklisp
2021-04-09T14:59:10Z rumbler31_: I just did that and things seem to work.  thanks!
2021-04-09T15:03:07Z Xach: rumbler31_: glad to see a bundle user!
2021-04-09T15:03:41Z rumbler31_: its been a while.  used it at my last company to check in a source tree that my coworkers could rebuild with make.  its been years so I'm standing that up again from whole cloth
2021-04-09T15:03:51Z rumbler31_: but the bundle thing is the hardest work for sure haha
2021-04-09T15:03:55Z rumbler31_: so thanks for that
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2021-04-09T15:36:19Z rumbler31_: does prefixing an as-of-yet-uninterned-sybol with #: prevent it from being interned?
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2021-04-09T15:39:27Z Bike: #:foo is read as a new symbol that is not interned in any package.
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2021-04-09T15:45:19Z jcowan: rumbler31_: So if foo already exists, the new #:foo is distinct from it in the sense of eql.
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2021-04-09T15:55:12Z rumbler31_: hmm ok
2021-04-09T15:56:07Z rumbler31_: I'm kinda dumb right now.  why is it a good practice to use that prefix when specifying, say, quicklisp packages to load. And also, whats the preferred library for doing things like copying files?  UIOP?
2021-04-09T15:56:20Z rumbler31_: and by the way thanks everyone for your help
2021-04-09T15:57:39Z jdz: I use strings with Quicklisp.
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2021-04-09T15:58:08Z semz: Because it won't intern random symbols into your current package.
2021-04-09T15:58:16Z jdz: But it basically boils down to interning arbitrary symbols in whatever package the user currently happens to be.
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2021-04-09T16:06:46Z beach: rumbler31_: More important than the random interning is that you send a clear signal to the person reading your code, that the package of the symbol is of no importance, and the only important thing is the name.
2021-04-09T16:09:04Z remexre: If I want to define the same :around on a whole group of generic functions, what's the right way to do this? is there some mop trick, or am I better off just using macros
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2021-04-09T16:11:36Z beach: mop method-generic-function
2021-04-09T16:11:37Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/method-generic-function.html
2021-04-09T16:11:57Z beach: A method can be present on at most one generic function, so you have to make distinct methods.
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2021-04-09T16:13:14Z remexre: if I adjust my wording to, "define an :around on any generic function (that opts into it, perhaps with a special method combination?)" is that more possible?
2021-04-09T16:14:35Z beach: I mean, you can certainly do all this programmatically.  After all, the DEFMETHOD form expands to some calls to functions.
2021-04-09T16:14:50Z beach: But it becomes messy because of MAKE-METHOD-LAMBDA.
2021-04-09T16:15:16Z beach: So I would probably create a macro.
2021-04-09T16:15:38Z remexre: okay, thanks
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2021-04-09T16:41:31Z cage_: hi! why (cl-ppcre:split "\\n" (format nil "~2%s")): => ("" "" "s") but (cl-ppcre:split "\\n" (format nil "~2%")); => nil ?
2021-04-09T16:42:06Z cage_: is this sort of a bug?
2021-04-09T16:44:56Z jackdaniel: I once had a problem and I thought: I know, I will use regexps! Then I had two problems.
2021-04-09T16:45:22Z rumbler31_: its not clear to me what the argument to asdf:system-weakly-depends-on should be.  I've tried '#:project-name and "project-name"
2021-04-09T16:45:37Z jackdaniel: weak dependencies are deprecated in asdf
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2021-04-09T16:46:05Z rumbler31_: er, then... the other, system-depends-on, that's the one I'm trying to use
2021-04-09T16:46:59Z jackdaniel: try (asdf:system-depends-on  (asdf:find-system "mcclim"))
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2021-04-09T16:48:41Z rumbler31_: jackdaniel: you're the best
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2021-04-09T16:49:34Z jackdaniel: I know :)
2021-04-09T16:51:03Z cage_: jackdaniel, :D
2021-04-09T16:52:01Z rumbler31_: cage_: good question
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2021-04-09T16:53:39Z rumbler31_: cage_: do you need to do that kind of split, or is this example code
2021-04-09T16:55:07Z cage_: i have wrapped this code into a function named 'split-lines'
2021-04-09T16:56:19Z cage_: just syntactic sugar and nothing more
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2021-04-09T17:03:33Z cage_: i have opened an issue report on github about that behaviour
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2021-04-09T17:04:41Z cage_: this is tangential, but i'd love if there was a discourse (web forum) instance about lisp, maybe hosted on common-lisp.net
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2021-04-09T17:21:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: cage_: if you don't actually need regular expressions, there's split-sequence
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2021-04-09T17:22:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, I can't think of why that behavior happens
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2021-04-09T17:25:07Z mfiano: No need for split-sequence if you're splitting strings. It's included in asdf
2021-04-09T17:26:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't like using utility functions in the ASDF package
2021-04-09T17:27:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: Fortunately, there's also: (uiop:split-string)
2021-04-09T17:27:20Z mfiano: That's what I was referring to
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2021-04-09T17:27:45Z cage_: fiddlerwoaroof, mfiano thank you!
2021-04-09T17:30:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's interesting how all these split functions implement the keyword argument that limits the number  of items in the return value differently
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2021-04-09T17:34:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: (cl-ppcre:split ":" "a:b:c" :limit 2) #| ==> ("a" "b:c") |#
2021-04-09T17:34:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: (split-sequence:split-sequence #\: "a:b:c" :count 2) #| ==> ("a" "b") 4 |#
2021-04-09T17:34:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: (uiop:split-string "a:b:c" :max 2 :separator '(#\:)) #| ==> ("a:b" "c") |#
2021-04-09T17:35:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: in my experience, cl-ppcre's behavior is the one I usually want here
2021-04-09T17:35:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: Actually, sorry, I want the behavior the version I wrote has
2021-04-09T17:36:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: (fwoar.string-utils:split #\: "a:b:c" :count 2) #| ==> #("a" "b" "c") |#
2021-04-09T17:36:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: the count counts the number of times the string is split, so the number of resulting elements is count+1
2021-04-09T17:36:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: With the last element being "everything left"
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2021-04-09T17:37:36Z cage_: i agree is interesting
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2021-04-09T18:03:32Z rumbler31_: cage_: there is a discord, and I'm sure there's a slack
2021-04-09T18:03:40Z rumbler31_: and a few subreddits
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2021-04-09T18:05:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: If there's a slack, I've never heard of one
2021-04-09T18:06:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: There's a room on matrix too
2021-04-09T18:06:40Z rumbler31_: anyone experienced that uiop:copy-files actually moves files instead?
2021-04-09T18:07:19Z rumbler31_: or rather doesn't actually copy.. but just deletes?
2021-04-09T18:07:24Z remexre: is the point of boole that it might be calling out to like, a hardware blitter or something?
2021-04-09T18:09:38Z cage_: rumbler31_, my very personal beliefs make me stay away from proprietary/surveillance platform, of course i hav eno problem if other find this platform useful but just they are not for me
2021-04-09T18:09:50Z cage_: thanks by the way! :)
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2021-04-09T18:10:52Z Nilby: remexre: Yes, but it can have other uses. For exmaple CLX uses the bool-* symbols as the drawing function in the graphics context.
2021-04-09T18:15:32Z Nilby: One can do other interesting things with boole, like database bitmap index operations.
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2021-04-09T18:18:24Z Xach: remexre: there is an interesting post on this topic
2021-04-09T18:18:55Z Xach: https://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3250222105960910%40naggum.no.html
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2021-04-09T18:19:11Z Xach: and the previous one as well
2021-04-09T18:19:16Z Xach: (from the "prev" link)
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2021-04-09T18:19:57Z remexre: ok, thanks to both of you!
2021-04-09T18:20:00Z Nilby: Xach: I'm so thankful you preserve those
2021-04-09T18:23:10Z Nilby: That one also gives a good approach to understanding anything in CL.
2021-04-09T18:28:47Z rumbler31_: anyone know why ensure-directories-exist would fail, when all but the last folder in the given path is created?
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2021-04-09T18:32:40Z rumbler31_: even the uiop version fails
2021-04-09T18:33:05Z rumbler31_: yup cuz it calls the same function with mapcar
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2021-04-09T18:35:10Z Nilby: rumbler31_: But what is the error message? It can fail for many many reasons.
2021-04-09T18:38:26Z rumbler31_: so there is no error thrown, which seems to be in disagreement with the spec
2021-04-09T18:38:39Z rumbler31_: it just returns nil for created-p and the directories are never created
2021-04-09T18:39:27Z mfiano: rumbler31_: ensure-directory-pathname is your friend
2021-04-09T18:39:41Z rumbler31_: I sorely wish that ccl could bring back its debugging steping functionality
2021-04-09T18:40:42Z mfiano: All but the last directory being created implies you are supplying a file pathname, so fix it with make-pathname or wrap it in the above
2021-04-09T18:41:10Z rumbler31_: I'm not really sure what ensure-directory-pathname
2021-04-09T18:41:30Z mfiano: Can you show me your call to ensure-directories-exist exactly?
2021-04-09T18:42:41Z rumbler31_: (ensure-directories-exist "/home/user/quicklisp/local-projects/project/project-bundle/local-projects/project/" :verbose t)
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2021-04-09T18:44:24Z mfiano: Not sure, https://gist.github.com/mfiano/bd992be48ac717345cd36bcf07db89bf
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2021-04-09T18:57:20Z rumbler31_: i'm spending an inordinant amount of time getting common lisp to make a new directory and copy 3 files into it.  sorry to gripe
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2021-04-09T19:04:40Z Nilby: One simple way to see what's actually happening, is to trace the systems calls using something like strace on linux or truss on bsd, so you can see what actual file system call might be failing.
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2021-04-09T19:41:09Z rumbler31_: Nilby: So there's a lot of lstatting of the right paths, I don't understand enough to find the syscalls for copying files
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2021-04-09T19:52:46Z Josh_2: just found a program breaking bug that was because I missed the : on my :initarg definition
2021-04-09T19:52:47Z Josh_2: oof
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2021-04-09T20:16:14Z rumbler31_: So uiop:copy-file gets the right args
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2021-04-09T20:36:29Z rumbler31_: it goes all the way down to two with-open-file macros and just copies the a buffer at a time into the output stream, and if
2021-04-09T20:36:34Z rumbler31_: I knew it was something stupid I did
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2021-04-09T20:58:42Z rumbler31_: derp tried to make a bundle that didn't include quicklisp that includes a function to call quicklisp bundle.... dummy <-----
2021-04-09T20:59:19Z rumbler31_: hmm I wonder how to fix that
2021-04-09T21:00:02Z rumbler31_: I want to make a bundle of a project, I guess none of the functions I wrote depend on the original package
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2021-04-09T21:00:22Z rumbler31_: seems kinda hacky to just make another package that assumes things about another, like file paths and project names
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2021-04-09T21:00:35Z rumbler31_: or I should use the term system
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2021-04-09T21:06:05Z Nilby: Since Quicklisp can't really be an asdf or quicklisp dependency, then unless you always install it as part of your own installation, things have to check for it manually before using it.
2021-04-09T21:08:21Z Nilby: My stuff can run with or without quicklisp, so I do a #+quicklisp in some places.
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2021-04-09T21:16:11Z Bike: quicklisp is an asdf system, isn't it?
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2021-04-09T21:23:36Z Nilby: Yes, but I'm pretty sure one might get different results loading it in it's recommended way, vs. just asdf loading it.
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2021-04-09T21:46:56Z monaliza: Heyo! I've recently learned common lisp and i've read a book about it, I've been kind of indecisive for which other vlafor of lisp i should start using next, because of how many flavours there are. I'm mostly really interested in functional programming, and I'm a real fan of haskell-ish syntax, where it's short, makes sense, and works rather well. I've heard about Racket lisp, Arc lisp, and Scheme,
2021-04-09T21:46:59Z monaliza: and I'm getting mixed signals on which one I should try to extensively dive into first
2021-04-09T21:49:16Z moon-child: monaliza: you are unlikely to get very many responses here, because this channel is specifically about common lisp.  That being said: I would avoid arc.  Racket and scheme are both nice enough, and you may also want to look at coalton
2021-04-09T21:50:47Z monaliza: Ahh, I see
2021-04-09T21:51:05Z monaliza: My fault for not reading the first word of the topic, I'm very sorry! And, thank you very much!
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2021-04-09T21:57:40Z kagevf:  use CL so you have the flexibility to take advantage of other styles when FP isn't a good fit
2021-04-09T21:59:00Z kagevf: also, if you want FP only no matter what, maybe consider clojure ... with the caveat that it's on the jvm
2021-04-09T21:59:35Z kagevf: and a syntax that has departed a bit from Lisp and Scheme
2021-04-09T22:00:04Z moon-child: didn't some schemes also adopt the [] syntax?
2021-04-09T22:00:15Z moon-child: I guess clojure also has {} for--hashtable literals, I think?
2021-04-09T22:01:17Z kagevf: I think you're right, moon-child but IDK for sure
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2021-04-09T22:35:15Z no-defun-allowed: m00natic: IIRC {} and [] in Scheme produce equivalent syntax to (), so you could write (let ([x 1]) x) in Scheme or even [let [[x 1]] x]
2021-04-09T22:36:28Z moon-child: no-defun-allowed: wrong moon :)
2021-04-09T22:36:42Z no-defun-allowed: Oh dear.
2021-04-09T22:38:06Z moon-child: seems chicken does exactly as you say, guile doesn'tlike {}, and s7 doesn't like either
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2021-04-09T22:55:30Z sm2n: racket considers [] and () equivalent
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2021-04-09T23:01:14Z edgar-rft: the beatiful thing with Scheme is that there are so many *different* syntax schemes you can choose from
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2021-04-09T23:35:47Z kagevf: in CL could you write a reader macro to do the same thing? to make [] and {} act like ()?
2021-04-09T23:36:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: yeah, they even exist
2021-04-09T23:36:40Z kagevf: ok, that's what I thought ... do they exist as part of the standard, or in a library?
2021-04-09T23:37:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: There's also things like this that port the good bits of Clojure's syntax: https://github.com/joinr/clclojure/blob/master/reader.lisp
2021-04-09T23:37:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: The standard reserves [] and {} for the use of the user
2021-04-09T23:37:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: iirc
2021-04-09T23:38:00Z kagevf: I see
2021-04-09T23:38:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, technically, libraries aren't supposed to use these characters in the standard readtable
2021-04-09T23:38:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: However, libraries are free to provide their own readtables, and named-readtables exists to make that process nicer
2021-04-09T23:39:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: Also, personally, I tend to think "whatever a library can do should be left out of the standard as much as possible"
2021-04-09T23:41:12Z kagevf: makes sense
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2021-04-10T00:53:42Z Bike: {} and [] are reserved in the sense that the implementation can't use them. there's no restrictions on programmer users, library writers or not. named readtables is probably still a good idea tho.
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2021-04-10T01:24:33Z aeth: You'd probably want #[...] and #{...} instead of just [...] and {...} to make it really clear that it's a reader macro
2021-04-10T01:24:51Z aeth: it also gives you some configuration after the #
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2021-04-10T03:04:55Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-04-10T03:05:00Z Josh_2: Mornin beach
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2021-04-10T05:45:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: Bike, I'm confusing two things, it's interesting that #{} and #[] aredescribed this way: "The combinations marked by an asterisk (*) are explicitly reserved to the user"
2021-04-10T05:45:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs 2.4.8
2021-04-10T05:45:40Z specbot: Sharpsign: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dh.htm
2021-04-10T05:46:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: While [] and {} are defined this way: "The characters marked with an asterisk (*) are initially constituents, but they are not used in any standard Common Lisp notations. These characters are explicitly reserved to the programmer."
2021-04-10T05:46:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs 2.1.4
2021-04-10T05:46:52Z specbot: Character Syntax Types: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_ad.htm
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2021-04-10T05:47:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: It seems to me that there's an attempt here to distinguish characters that end-users might define reader macros on from characters that non-end-user programmers might define reader macros on
2021-04-10T05:48:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: Of course, in retrospect, it seems to me that NAMED-READTABLES is the right solution to this sort of problems
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2021-04-10T14:15:23Z Josh_2: Afternoon
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2021-04-10T14:18:30Z beach: Hello Josh_2.
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2021-04-10T14:29:27Z opfez: does anyone have experience with cl-sdl2 on raspberry pi? can't get it to compile because it fails trying to run c2ffi
2021-04-10T14:29:49Z phoe: why does it fail to run c2ffi?
2021-04-10T14:30:16Z opfez: it just says it exited with error code 1
2021-04-10T14:30:41Z opfez: i'll paste the error, give me a sec
2021-04-10T14:30:53Z phoe: check the inferior-lisp buffer and/or the REPL, it should contain either the c2ffi invocations or c2ffi error messages
2021-04-10T14:31:24Z phoe: in the earlier case, you'll have a shell command that you will be able to repeat yourself in a terminal, and you'll get the error messages
2021-04-10T14:31:29Z phoe: s/earlier/former/
2021-04-10T14:32:28Z opfez: https://gist.github.com/opFez/02b5f12aa3611980b4285ae251a65c71
2021-04-10T14:32:50Z opfez: hm yeah i have tried running it and it doesn't provide any useful information
2021-04-10T14:33:20Z phoe: L19-L22 has the full command
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2021-04-10T14:33:53Z phoe: (format nil "~{~A~^ ~}") it and you will have something copypastable into your shell
2021-04-10T14:34:09Z opfez: yep, tried running that. the 8.0.1 part is wrong which i replaced with my actual clang version, still didn't work
2021-04-10T14:34:25Z phoe: what's the error that c2ffi gives?
2021-04-10T14:34:34Z opfez: give me a sec
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2021-04-10T14:37:14Z opfez: https://gist.github.com/opFez/c196f0848e4750834f526dda829bc889
2021-04-10T14:37:15Z opfez: it's a lot
2021-04-10T14:37:21Z opfez: 6000 lines wew
2021-04-10T14:37:57Z opfez: looks like mostly type declarations it can't find (uint8_t etc.)
2021-04-10T14:39:58Z phoe: weird, I can see that the C-INCLUDE form is supposed to include stdint.h which has these C type definitions.
2021-04-10T14:40:01Z phoe: mfiano: around?
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2021-04-10T14:52:40Z shka_: phoe: it is supposed to have in a proper C standard
2021-04-10T14:53:20Z opfez: in addition to this, i manually went into the sdl2 include file and added a #include <stdint.h>, didn't work either
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2021-04-10T15:11:21Z Xach: they broke beirc!
2021-04-10T15:11:23Z Xach: the madmen!
2021-04-10T15:11:48Z Xach: "last modified: 12 years ago"
2021-04-10T15:12:06Z Xach: jackdaniel: have you been changing mcclim so much that beirc breaks? or something?
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2021-04-10T15:22:16Z mfiano: phoe: almost
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2021-04-10T15:31:14Z scymtym: Xach: do you have a failure report for that?
2021-04-10T15:32:34Z phoe: mfiano: maybe you could try debug the cl-sdl2 c2ffi failure from above
2021-04-10T15:33:13Z mfiano: Maybe someone with an rpi could. That would be far easier :)
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2021-04-10T16:27:39Z splittist: How do I programmatically create a NaN (Not a Number) on those implementations that support them? Alternatively, what would be good libraries to look for such an answer?
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2021-04-10T16:27:54Z splittist: s/look/look at/
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2021-04-10T16:35:15Z splittist: For sbcl I have with-float-traps-masked to play with, I guess.
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2021-04-10T16:39:31Z jackdaniel: Xach: yes, let me see what was the previous behavior
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2021-04-10T16:39:49Z jackdaniel: I'm backporting non trivial amounts of code currently
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2021-04-10T16:50:51Z jackdaniel: scymtym: the regression was caused by the fact that normalize-keyboard-physical-gesture tries to enforce a fixed set of keywords
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2021-04-10T16:52:10Z jackdaniel: Xach: thanks for the report, I've reverted the part that beirc didn't like
2021-04-10T16:53:03Z jackdaniel: during upcoming days there may be few more regressions (most likely due to my screw ups)
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2021-04-10T16:53:09Z jackdaniel: sorry about that
2021-04-10T16:53:15Z jackdaniel: s/few/a few/
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2021-04-10T17:26:33Z Bike: splittist: there is https://github.com/Shinmera/float-features
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2021-04-10T17:27:01Z splittist: Bike: yes. I'm looking at nan.lisp (which does not seem to be part of the system)
2021-04-10T17:27:13Z splittist: s/yes/yes, thanks!/
2021-04-10T17:27:17Z Shinmera: ? why would it not be
2021-04-10T17:27:26Z Bike: it's in the ASD? right?
2021-04-10T17:27:29Z Shinmera: it is.
2021-04-10T17:27:32Z Bike: or have i contracted reverse blindness
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2021-04-10T17:32:07Z splittist: ahem. <updates quiclisp dist>
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2021-04-10T17:34:35Z splittist: It works! (Underlines previous note to self: when looking for libraries start with Shinmeraware)
2021-04-10T17:35:04Z Shinmera: float-features seems to be my most-used library somehow.
2021-04-10T17:35:10Z Shinmera: At least from the amount of comments I see about it.
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2021-04-10T17:59:12Z splittist: I confess I am too stupid to know how to use the nan constants in a function (without sbcl complaining about an invalid comparison)
2021-04-10T18:00:34Z Lycurgus hopes theys conditions
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2021-04-10T18:02:54Z splittist: And when I say 'use', I mean merely 'return'.
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2021-04-10T18:18:37Z scymtym: jackdaniel: yes, for some of the commits, cherry-picking will not work without adaptations
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2021-04-10T18:40:35Z jackdaniel: indeed
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2021-04-10T18:52:22Z Krystof: splittist: You probably need to remove :invalid from float-traps
2021-04-10T18:52:44Z Krystof: then sb-kernel:make-single-float <bits> (and sb-kernel:make-double-float <bits> <more bits>)
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2021-04-10T18:55:06Z splittist: Krystof: thanks.
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2021-04-10T20:32:15Z makomo: hello! \o
2021-04-10T20:32:47Z makomo: is there any portable way of checking whether a form represents an actual place?
2021-04-10T20:34:38Z makomo: the closest i got so far was using get-setf-expansion and then checking if the setter form is of the form (funcall (setf <something>) ...) and checking whether (setf <something>) is fbound, because calling (setf <something>) is the fallback if no setf expander exists
2021-04-10T20:35:02Z makomo: the only problem i see with this is the fact that the setter doesn't necessarily have to be of the form (funcall (setf <something>) ...), but it could still perform the same job
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2021-04-10T20:39:42Z Bike: yeah, that's about the best there is, probably. why do you need to know if something is a place?
2021-04-10T20:45:12Z makomo: Bike: i was writing a small dsl that allows me to define functions with various parameter passing strategies (call by value/reference/const/result/value-result/name) and somewhere along the line i needed to know whether to generate a (setf <something>) for an expression, depending whether it's a place or not
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2021-04-10T20:45:48Z makomo: it also allows me to report a nice compile-time if you pass in expressions that aren't places for e.g. the reference passing strategy
2021-04-10T20:45:54Z makomo: compile-time error*
2021-04-10T20:46:12Z makomo: depending on*
2021-04-10T20:46:21Z Bike: you'd get a "(setf whatever) is undefined" warning regardless, right?
2021-04-10T20:48:22Z makomo: hm, why regardless? i would get something like that if i didn't include my check for whether the form is an actual place
2021-04-10T20:48:45Z makomo: it would blow up somewhere inside the generated macro and be really confusing, which is why i wanted to handle it before it ever got expanded
2021-04-10T20:48:57Z phoe: I assume that you disallow out-of-order compilation
2021-04-10T20:49:14Z phoe: (progn (my-macro ...) (defun (setf foo) ...)) is going to blow up in your example
2021-04-10T20:49:36Z phoe: even though it would normally compile and work
2021-04-10T20:50:43Z makomo: ahh, good point i guess. so the first form would be something like (my-macro ... (foo ...) ...)?
2021-04-10T20:51:14Z makomo: and then perhaps my-macro would use setf to set it
2021-04-10T20:51:47Z phoe: you mean like the expander function, during macroexpansion?
2021-04-10T20:52:02Z phoe: or would it expand into some form that includes the setf expansion of FOO?
2021-04-10T20:52:25Z phoe: the latter would work fine, the former looks weird because macroexpanders must be idempotent
2021-04-10T20:53:16Z makomo: during macroexpansion is when my PLACEP would be called, but the setf expansion would be present in the expansion of my-macro somewhere
2021-04-10T20:53:43Z phoe: looks like a case of "if it ain't broken, don't fix it" simply because the place can be defined after your PLACEP is called
2021-04-10T20:54:12Z phoe: somewhere within the same compilation unit, so not even a warning would be generated
2021-04-10T20:54:29Z makomo: right :^(
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2021-04-10T20:54:54Z makomo: does sbcl normally generate a warning in such a case? when you're using a function before it's been defined?
2021-04-10T20:55:00Z makomo: i thought it did
2021-04-10T20:55:10Z phoe: yes, but not within the same compilation unit
2021-04-10T20:55:18Z makomo: hmm, right
2021-04-10T20:55:21Z phoe: I mean, if you explicitly require that all places must be defined before your macro is expanded, then your PLACEP is going to work and be useful
2021-04-10T20:55:32Z makomo: mhm mhm, true
2021-04-10T20:55:44Z makomo: it definitely has some caveats, yeah
2021-04-10T20:56:13Z makomo: speaking of caveats, there's a peculiar thing that i noticed in jensen's device https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jensen%27s_device
2021-04-10T20:56:25Z makomo: which is what i was trying to implement with my parameter passing strategy dsl
2021-04-10T20:56:45Z phoe: also (progn (defun (setf foo) ...) (my-macro ... (foo ...))) - is this going to work without an EVAL-WHEN around the DEFUN?
2021-04-10T20:56:48Z phoe: lemme check
2021-04-10T20:57:22Z makomo: phoe: hmm good point, i wonder
2021-04-10T20:58:00Z makomo: regarding jensen's device: the parameter k that's passed by value is weird, because it's also used within the syntax of the for loop construct to introduce a binding that's not really called k
2021-04-10T20:58:45Z makomo: or rather, the for loop construct is weird, or maybe just the whole call by name strategy in algol
2021-04-10T20:58:58Z makomo: it appears to sort of interact with the syntax of the statements
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2021-04-10T21:00:09Z makomo: i'm aware of the "capture-free substitution (copy) rule" that's used to define call by name, but it's still weird to me that the k gets substituted in that context, because you would think it's part of the for loop's syntax, and not in a place that's to be "evaluated"
2021-04-10T21:00:27Z phoe: seems like you can't get this at compilation time without eval-when
2021-04-10T21:00:47Z makomo: i see :/
2021-04-10T21:00:54Z phoe: like, FBOUNDP on (setf foo) returns NIL even if DEFUN (SETF FOO) occurs earlier in the same PROGN
2021-04-10T21:01:03Z makomo: right. that makes sense i guess
2021-04-10T21:01:06Z phoe: so you're dead anyway unless you EVAL-ALWAYS things
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2021-04-10T22:33:30Z copec: What .xsd viewer do people like using under *nix?
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2021-04-10T22:39:40Z phoe: you mean xml schema files?
2021-04-10T22:39:45Z copec: yeah
2021-04-10T22:40:27Z copec: I've previously only done math things in CL as a hobby, but I'm trying to interface with Plesk panels that I manage for my work
2021-04-10T22:41:53Z phoe: the naïve way would be to use emacs with some sorta xml-mode since a schema is just an xml document
2021-04-10T22:42:23Z phoe: a more involved way would be to try and convert that into s-expressions and/or a nested Lisp object mayhaps
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2021-04-10T22:43:24Z phoe: I wonder if plump can load XSD files... why wouldn't it
2021-04-10T22:44:09Z copec: They have them rendered as .svg's but without a legend or anything, I guess I can look at the actual .xsd files and lookup what the tags mean in the branches
2021-04-10T22:45:22Z copec: I have two initial thoughts on implementation, simple functions that wrap the stream with tags, but it would be neat to figure out a macro to write a defclass hierarchy from the xsd
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2021-04-11T00:56:11Z bmansurov: o/ Can anyone please explain why the following macro doesn't work?
2021-04-11T00:56:14Z bmansurov: (defmacro positivep (x)
2021-04-11T00:56:15Z bmansurov:   (> x 0))
2021-04-11T00:56:15Z bmansurov: (positivep pi)
2021-04-11T00:56:18Z bmansurov:  
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2021-04-11T00:58:14Z bmansurov: Or this:
2021-04-11T00:58:16Z bmansurov: (defmacro positivep (x)
2021-04-11T00:58:16Z bmansurov:   `,(if (> x 0) 'Yes 'No))
2021-04-11T00:59:45Z Alfr: You should use defun for that.
2021-04-11T01:00:43Z no-defun-allowed: Indeed. Though I assume you would want to make sure the returned form tests X, as the macro currently tests if the symbol PI is greater than 0.
2021-04-11T01:00:50Z no-defun-allowed: clhs plusp
2021-04-11T01:00:50Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_minusp.htm
2021-04-11T01:01:49Z Alfr: And as for why it doesn't work, macro expansion doesn't evaluate its arguments. Thus you're passing the symbol PI, and then X is bound to it, thus you're trying to evaluate (> 'PI 0).
2021-04-11T01:02:59Z Alfr: no-defun-allowed, I knew that I missed something, couldn't recall that name.
2021-04-11T01:03:16Z bmansurov: Thanks both. Assuming I want to make that macro work, how do I pass the constant PI to the macro, rather than the symbol?
2021-04-11T01:03:32Z no-defun-allowed: If you really wanted to, you may write (defmacro positivep (x) `(if (,x 0) 'yes 'no))
2021-04-11T01:05:37Z bmansurov: I see. I guess I should share another example where the problem I'm trying to solve is more pronounced. Here it is:
2021-04-11T01:05:38Z bmansurov: (defmacro seq (from to)
2021-04-11T01:05:38Z bmansurov:   `(loop for i from ,from
2021-04-11T01:05:38Z bmansurov:          ,(if (> from to) 'downto 'to) ,to
2021-04-11T01:05:41Z bmansurov:          collect i))
2021-04-11T01:05:51Z White_Flame: the parameters passed into defmacro are source code
2021-04-11T01:06:03Z White_Flame: so if you want to pass something, it has to be absolutely literal
2021-04-11T01:06:09Z bmansurov: (seq 10 3) works in the above example, but (seq 10 pi) doesn't.
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2021-04-11T01:06:31Z White_Flame: however, in most cases, what you really want is to construct code that the compiler will collapse for you, instead of trying to fiddle stuff at this level
2021-04-11T01:07:11Z White_Flame: right, because (> 10 'pi) doesn't compare
2021-04-11T01:07:20Z White_Flame: the literal symbol PI is the 2nd parameter to the macro
2021-04-11T01:07:27Z White_Flame: again, it's passing source code
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2021-04-11T01:07:47Z White_Flame: the forms themselves, long before anything is evaluated
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2021-04-11T01:08:16Z no-defun-allowed: You will have to decide if (> from to) at runtime, perhaps by replicating and generating (if (> from to) (loop ... to ...) (loop ... downto ...)). But this would again be better as a function.
2021-04-11T01:08:25Z White_Flame: this is a runtime decision you have to make, based on the actual runtime value being passed into a call; this isn't something you can statically resolve
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2021-04-11T01:09:03Z bmansurov: OK, thanks. So there's no way to solve the above problem with macros other than creating two loops?
2021-04-11T01:09:51Z White_Flame: if you make 2 loops, you'll have a (if (> from to) (loop ...) (loop ..)), and if FROM & TO are numeric literals, the CL compiler should constant collapse one of them away
2021-04-11T01:10:07Z White_Flame: but, an inline function would be more suitable there than a macro
2021-04-11T01:10:28Z White_Flame: to accomplish the same
2021-04-11T01:10:49Z bmansurov: I went this rabbit hole because I didn't want to write a function with two loops. I appreciate everyone's responses.
2021-04-11T01:10:50Z White_Flame: s/numeric literals/numeric constants/
2021-04-11T01:11:46Z White_Flame: even if you special-cased in a test for pi, what would you think ot generate for (seq x y) ?
2021-04-11T01:11:51Z White_Flame: *to
2021-04-11T01:13:55Z bmansurov: I hadn't thought of variables, but you're right, it doesn't work.
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2021-04-11T01:14:28Z White_Flame: it's the biggest thing to mindwrap when dealing with macros
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2021-04-11T01:19:34Z bmansurov: My biggest gripe with Common Lisp is that at some point I got this macro stuff, but because I didn't practice writing CL, I forgot it. Learning Common Lisp is not like learning to ride a bicycle, unfortunately. I have to relearn this stuff. ;(
2021-04-11T01:19:54Z White_Flame: it's like that for all programming languages
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2021-04-11T01:21:42Z bmansurov: I don't know. For me, unlike JavaScript, for example, Common Lisp was hard to learn (even though I already knew how to program). It's even harder to retain that knowledge.
2021-04-11T01:24:04Z White_Flame: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2384#2384
2021-04-11T01:24:13Z White_Flame: this has the brittleness of doing equality for the exit, though
2021-04-11T01:24:47Z White_Flame: but with all fixnums, this should work, even if start = end
2021-04-11T01:25:02Z White_Flame: s/fixnums/integers/
2021-04-11T01:25:28Z White_Flame: ugh, s/incf/+/ :-P
2021-04-11T01:25:34Z White_Flame: too many edits :)
2021-04-11T01:26:31Z White_Flame: and of course the reason there's upto vs downto is that the exit comparison needs to be <= or >= depending on the direction
2021-04-11T01:27:15Z bmansurov: Thanks, I appreciate your help. I was more interested in getting ~to~ and ~downto~ working. As others have suggested, and as you have showed, there are many ways to skin this cat. I was after that specific way.
2021-04-11T01:27:16Z White_Flame: which is why there's = in this bidirectional version
2021-04-11T01:27:35Z White_Flame: ah, k
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2021-04-11T03:01:53Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-04-11T09:45:16Z theothornhill: Hello! How do you decide between separate defmethods, or use the (:method) syntax on generic functions? Are there any tradeoffs with one or the other?
2021-04-11T09:46:51Z no-defun-allowed: Usually I put a class definition and any methods in the same file, so I would rarely be able to use :method syntax if I wanted.
2021-04-11T09:47:07Z beach: The latter requires the method definition to be in the same file as the DEFGENERIC form, so that's already a limitation.  If you modularity requires them to be in a separate file you have no choice.
2021-04-11T09:47:28Z no-defun-allowed: But I use :method for "default" methods which the programmer should know about immediately sometimes, and whenever I use DEFGENERIC as a lazy person's pattern matcher.
2021-04-11T09:48:03Z beach: Or, you can use :METHOD when you have only a few methods that specialize to built-in classes.
2021-04-11T09:48:30Z beach: For example, if you specialize to NULL and CONS.
2021-04-11T09:48:53Z theothornhill: Thanks! Makes sense.
2021-04-11T09:49:43Z beach: Methods defined with :METHOD are removed when the DEFGENERIC form is re-evaluated.  Not so with separate methods defined using DEFMETHOD.
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2021-04-11T09:49:54Z beach: That is a consideration as well.
2021-04-11T09:51:06Z theothornhill: You mean the "old" version is removed if you change a :METHOD method and re-evaluate?
2021-04-11T09:51:17Z beach: But, yeah, I agree with no-defun-allowed.  Often, the best place for a method specializing to some class C is in the same file as the DEFCLASS form for C, whereas DEFGENERIC forms are usually in a separate file.
2021-04-11T09:51:32Z beach: theothornhill: yes.
2021-04-11T09:52:21Z theothornhill: That seems nice though, if it cleans up the image a little
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2021-04-11T09:52:26Z beach: Or if you change some other aspect of the generic function, like the method combination.
2021-04-11T09:52:52Z beach: ... or the method class.
2021-04-11T09:52:58Z theothornhill: Is there any reason you'd want to keep the "old" version?
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2021-04-11T09:53:42Z beach: I can't think of any right now.
2021-04-11T09:54:10Z theothornhill: Ok. It seems you can mix and match it though, so thats nice
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2021-04-11T09:58:22Z vydd: Hey! I'm trying to do some CL programming after a relatively long time, and for my project I'd like to use https://github.com/plkrueger/CocoaInterface. However, it doesn't seem to play nice with asdf (or at least that's how it looks to me). There are docs on how to setup the environment using the ccl-ide-init.lisp file, in which *module-search-path* is updated to contain CocoaInterface, but when I quickload my project from sly, it
2021-04-11T09:58:22Z vydd:  cannot find the :IU package. Any pointers on how to solve that?
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2021-04-11T10:37:25Z vydd: jmercouris: googling around, your named popped up in a discussion related to migrating CocoaInterface to use a system. https://github.com/nEXT-Browser/CocoaInterface doesn't seem to be available anymore. Did you ever manage to make it work, or did you hit a road block?
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2021-04-11T11:12:42Z rumbler31: once long ago I played with something like that on windows, but the experience wasn't great, mainly because the cocoa interface on windows was likely incomplete
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2021-04-11T11:51:16Z jmercouris: vydd: I was successful
2021-04-11T11:52:11Z jmercouris: vydd: you’ll have to look at this repository : https://github.com/atlas-engineer/nyxt
2021-04-11T11:52:30Z jmercouris: vydd: if you go back in time you’ll see the cocoa interface working
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2021-04-11T11:53:26Z jmercouris: I actually more or less use the objective c bridge independently of the cocoa interface after some point in time
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2021-04-11T13:30:59Z nij: Hello! I can ql:quickload :sb-cltl2 from an sbcl repl. But when I put that in my stumpwm config, it doesn't know where to find.
2021-04-11T13:31:17Z nij: Oddly enough, ql:quickload-ing other packages works fine in my stumpwm config.
2021-04-11T13:32:28Z no-defun-allowed: I think that would call (require :sb-cltl2) and not ASDF, so it is up to how SBCL finds its own modules.
2021-04-11T13:34:37Z nij: What is *that*?
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2021-04-11T13:37:45Z no-defun-allowed: (ql:quickload :sb-cltl2)
2021-04-11T13:38:02Z nij: Hmm. I see. But it does work in my repl..
2021-04-11T13:39:48Z no-defun-allowed: Quicklisp doesn't control how SBCL stores its contrib(?) modules, so it is understandable how any other module would load correctly.
2021-04-11T13:41:11Z MichaelRaskin: nij: presumably, in REPL the system is already loaded for other reasons?
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2021-04-11T13:42:03Z Bike: i think sbcl loads contribs by looking at $SBCL_HOME, which might be different between the repl and stumpwm
2021-04-11T13:45:53Z nij: Where is $SBCL_HOME pointing to by default?
2021-04-11T13:47:51Z rumbler31: I don't think its set unless you set it yourself
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2021-04-11T13:52:18Z Bike: ok, well, i was looking at module-provide-contrib, which says it "[stringifies] and [downcases] NAME, then [attempts] to load the file $SBCL_HOME/name/name". but it seems to do a little more than querying the shell variable
2021-04-11T13:53:54Z nij: Maybe I should just check what has been loaded in my repl?
2021-04-11T13:54:02Z nij: How to check all load paths?
2021-04-11T13:54:04Z Bike: maybe you could look at (sb-int:sbcl-homedir-pathname) in the repl versus stumpwm
2021-04-11T13:54:15Z Bike: if they're different, REQUIRE will be looking in different places
2021-04-11T13:56:49Z nij: Great! I get the clue.
2021-04-11T13:56:51Z nij: Thanks :-)
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2021-04-11T13:58:43Z lotuseater: is it equivalent to say (defun sqr (x) (* x x)) and (compile 'sqr '(lambda (x) (* x x))) ? :)
2021-04-11T13:59:10Z Bike: mostly. the first one might not be compiled.
2021-04-11T13:59:44Z Bike: and the second one will probably lack (implementation-defined) compile time side effects like suppressing undefined function warnings for sqr, and such.
2021-04-11T14:00:19Z lotuseater: hmmm
2021-04-11T14:00:49Z nij: Problem solved ;)
2021-04-11T14:01:36Z lotuseater: ^^
2021-04-11T14:02:32Z nij: (require "drakma") on guix system returns the error -
2021-04-11T14:02:56Z lotuseater: oh. but I'm not on GUIX atm :/
2021-04-11T14:03:04Z nij: Unalbe to load any of the alternatives: ("libssl.so.1.1" "libssl.so.1.0.2m" ...) [Condition of type CFFI:LOAD-FOREIGN-LIBRARY-ERROR]
2021-04-11T14:03:37Z Bike: sbcl uses dlopen to find libraries, and as far as i can tell from people being confused here, guix totally hoses it
2021-04-11T14:03:37Z nij: Yeah GUIX has their own way to put their libraries.
2021-04-11T14:03:42Z Bike: you need to use LD_LIBRARY_PATH or something
2021-04-11T14:04:18Z lotuseater: oh wow, on nixos the lispPackages.drakma doesn't fail
2021-04-11T14:04:30Z nij: nixos has a large community
2021-04-11T14:04:47Z lotuseater: yes much larger
2021-04-11T14:05:00Z nij: but it's not lisp
2021-04-11T14:05:36Z lotuseater: no it isn't and the syntax confuses me
2021-04-11T14:05:55Z lotuseater: just sometimes, even that it's functional
2021-04-11T14:06:18Z nij: Bike: would you mind elaborating it more?
2021-04-11T14:06:19Z lotuseater: but don't worry, loading drakma in SBCL also throws me into "libssl not found" :D
2021-04-11T14:06:36Z nij: Should I set LD_LIBRARY_PATH to something else?
2021-04-11T14:06:45Z nij: lotuseater: you're on nix?
2021-04-11T14:06:48Z Bike: i haven't used these systems myself. i'm just going off of what people have said here in the past.
2021-04-11T14:07:00Z lotuseater: yes nij, I'm using NixOS
2021-04-11T14:07:04Z Bike: maybe i can find something more detailed in the logs.
2021-04-11T14:07:05Z nij: Bike great it's totally fine. At least I have something to start with.
2021-04-11T14:07:20Z nij: No no it's fine. If you don't happen to know, I'll do the work.
2021-04-11T14:08:25Z Bike: ok.
2021-04-11T14:08:26Z lotuseater: i worked around that with other packages by pushing some paths to cffi:*foreign-library-directories* in .sbclrc
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2021-04-11T14:10:25Z nij: great to know!
2021-04-11T14:11:02Z nij: Now that variable is NIL in my repl. I gotta ask the guix community where those .so files are.
2021-04-11T14:11:31Z lotuseater: i found them here using the tool fuzzy find, very practicable
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2021-04-11T14:12:10Z lotuseater: but it won't be bad to know some special folder, it searches recursively ...
2021-04-11T14:13:12Z lotuseater: and eg for loading to work with mcclim it needed the truetype font path
2021-04-11T14:13:30Z nij: im getting fzf for that.. hold on
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2021-04-11T14:14:08Z lotuseater: yes or for whatever else :)
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2021-04-11T14:31:48Z vydd: jmercouris: amazing, thanks!
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2021-04-11T15:14:26Z Josh_2: Good afternoon
2021-04-11T15:17:51Z beach: Hello Josh_2.
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2021-04-11T15:21:19Z alanz: I am liking that instead of writing comments about what I am doing, I can put :documentation and then it shows up in the info requests
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2021-04-11T15:30:42Z beach: alanz: Except that comments and documentation strings have different target audiences.
2021-04-11T15:31:54Z alanz: I am still working that out.  I am using the documentation more on fields, and for defun's
2021-04-11T15:32:20Z beach: What are "fields"?
2021-04-11T15:32:20Z alanz: slots, I guess I should call them
2021-04-11T15:32:23Z beach: Oh.
2021-04-11T15:32:33Z alanz still an immigrant here
2021-04-11T15:33:14Z Nilby: I'm just glad when people write any docstrings.
2021-04-11T15:33:33Z beach: Still, the documentation string and the comment would contain different things.  First of all, a documentation string for a slot doesn't make much sense, since slots are implementation details.  And for functions, the comment would mention why it is implemented the way it is, and the documentation string would mention how it is to be used.
2021-04-11T15:36:20Z alanz: Right now I am using defclass to create a thing that I intend to be a summary of information I know from various sources, which can be used as the basis of a thing to render in CLIM. So I am documenting per slot what it is sumamrising
2021-04-11T15:36:32Z alanz: Is that a completely un-lisp way of doing things?
2021-04-11T15:37:00Z Nilby: I like docstrings on slots.
2021-04-11T15:37:26Z beach: alanz: If I understand it right, that makes sense.
2021-04-11T15:38:09Z alanz: thanks
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2021-04-11T16:26:57Z jackdaniel: beach: but if you inspect the object, comment won't be (usually) accessible, while the docstring could provide some context
2021-04-11T16:27:41Z jackdaniel: just a loose thought, I don't find slot documentation very helpful neither
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2021-04-11T16:30:10Z beach: Yes, I see what you mean.  I need to think about what target audience would be most likely to inspect an object.
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2021-04-11T16:35:26Z Nilby: Unless you want to specialize #'documentation on target audience, I say just write copious reasonable docstrings for everybody.
2021-04-11T16:36:12Z jackdaniel: (defclass foo () ((bar :documentation "provides bar for foo"))) ;-)
2021-04-11T16:37:15Z jackdaniel: or (defclass cat () ((name :documentation "the name of a cat")))
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2021-04-11T16:39:20Z Nilby: I know slots are like the divergent base case, but sometimes there could be quite useful inoformation about a slot.
2021-04-11T16:39:51Z jackdaniel: sure
2021-04-11T16:40:37Z Nilby: e.g (defclass container () (... (damage :documentation "A list of bounding boxes whose area may need to be redraw.")))
2021-04-11T16:41:21Z jackdaniel: you are right, there may be a useful information. the question is whether it should be put in a comment, in a docstring or in a documentation
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2021-04-11T16:41:56Z jackdaniel: (where a documentation is an external document)
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2021-04-11T16:42:27Z Nilby: I find it very useful as 1 keystroke away in the REPL.
2021-04-11T16:42:50Z alanz: I am with Nilby on that
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2021-04-11T16:43:45Z Nilby: I even have it so it can the the slot doc from an accessor name or class name.
2021-04-11T16:43:53Z jackdaniel: I don't have a strong opinion on the topic. if the slot's accessor is exported, then it should be documented in the external document. as of whether a slot itself should be documented in a comment or via documentation - I suppose it heavily depends on the programming style
2021-04-11T16:44:37Z jackdaniel: when someone mainly operates on a living image (i.e by relying heavily on introspection), then the documentation option sounds fine; when they work solely based on a source code for clean builds, then a comment is good
2021-04-11T16:45:37Z jackdaniel: mind, that documentation strings in lisp are not very nice. for instance when you have more information to cover, they just clutter the code
2021-04-11T16:45:44Z jackdaniel: there is no proper wrapping etc
2021-04-11T16:46:03Z jackdaniel: you can't also associate with them any semantic information (it is a string after all)
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2021-04-11T16:47:07Z Nilby: My view is there is no external. The documentation is an object accessible from the repl.
2021-04-11T16:47:48Z jackdaniel burns his books and printed manuals yelling "burn! thou is not accessible from the repl"
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2021-04-11T16:48:42Z jackdaniel: that said, a live documentation writing and reading system in clim is a nice idea :)
2021-04-11T16:49:09Z jackdaniel: if I had a source code of unfinished thing in my repositories directory, I'd call it "London" after a famous writer
2021-04-11T16:49:37Z dieggsy: I've been in scheme world for a long time and am revisiting my old project euler problems in CL - what am I doing wrong in the CL defun here?: https://paste.dieggsy.com/2021-04-11T12:50:05
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2021-04-11T16:50:19Z jackdaniel: first: your indentation is wrong
2021-04-11T16:50:34Z loke[m]: dieggsy: I'm afraid you have to be a bit more precise than just asking "what's wrong".
2021-04-11T16:51:09Z loke[m]: jackdaniel: Looks like the default Emacs Lisp indentation. Look at the if.
2021-04-11T16:51:27Z jackdaniel: elisp indentation is wrong for common lisp, isn't it/
2021-04-11T16:51:37Z dieggsy: This is lisp-mode in Emacs
2021-04-11T16:51:41Z loke[m]: jackdaniel: oh for sure.
2021-04-11T16:51:53Z dieggsy: I'm not explicitly using elisp-mode lol
2021-04-11T16:52:06Z jackdaniel: dieggsy: install slime and use slime-mode for editing common lisp code
2021-04-11T16:52:19Z jackdaniel: it will recognize special operators like LABELS and indent your code correctly
2021-04-11T16:52:49Z jackdaniel: (well, correctly for most cases)
2021-04-11T16:52:49Z dieggsy: jackdaniel: I have slime installed and slime-mode enabled, doesn't seem to make a difference
2021-04-11T16:53:01Z jackdaniel: that's a shame, it works here
2021-04-11T16:53:09Z dieggsy: lol
2021-04-11T16:53:15Z dieggsy: are you sure you're not modifying the indentation in any other way
2021-04-11T16:53:34Z jackdaniel: I'm pretty sure, yes :)
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2021-04-11T16:54:20Z jackdaniel: so, based on responses here: 1) fix the indentation, 2) provide more context of what is wrong
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2021-04-11T16:55:36Z dieggsy: Ok, but indentation is /not/ a factor in the code results lol, thats' part of why i like lisp
2021-04-11T16:55:45Z dieggsy: lisps in general
2021-04-11T16:55:53Z jackdaniel: sure, but it is a factor in the peer code review
2021-04-11T16:56:08Z jackdaniel: i.e people may refuse to be bothered with wrongly indented code
2021-04-11T16:56:26Z Nilby: I like to imagine that a modern Concordia will eventually materialize.
2021-04-11T16:56:32Z dieggsy: Hmm. Well, if slime-mode is supposed to fix my indentation and it simply isn't ... ?
2021-04-11T16:56:36Z dieggsy: i'll look around
2021-04-11T16:57:48Z loke[m]: dieggsy: Does SLIME work for you otherwise?
2021-04-11T16:57:51Z _death: dieggsy: slime sets up a lisp-mode hook (slime-lisp-mode-hook) that sets the lisp-indent-function to common-lisp-indent-function
2021-04-11T16:58:23Z dieggsy: yeah hold up, testing things
2021-04-11T16:58:33Z dieggsy: the fact that it's a hook is helpful, thanks
2021-04-11T16:58:39Z _death: so if you C-h v lisp-indent-function RET you should get that
2021-04-11T17:00:47Z dieggsy: sweet, yeah, i had done some gobbledygook with indentation ages ago. I actually used to use CL a good amount heh, it's just been a long time since i've revisited
2021-04-11T17:01:01Z dieggsy: thanks for the suggestions, indentation seems to be working now
2021-04-11T17:03:17Z dieggsy: And i think I found out what's wrong with my code. Every loop, i should be taking the previous value of j, but i'm also modifying j every loop and i think it's taking that. dunno, will investigate further
2021-04-11T17:04:23Z _death: for x ... for y ... is sequential.. for parallel, use for x ... and for y ...
2021-04-11T17:04:48Z _death: *and y
2021-04-11T17:06:23Z dieggsy: _death: that's probably part of the problem, but  i think i'm still running into what i described above ? if i starts at 1 and j starts at 2, the next time i should be 2 (old j) and j should be 3 (old i + old j)
2021-04-11T17:06:47Z dieggsy: something about the ...then j ... and ...then (+ i j) ... logic isn't working out
2021-04-11T17:07:05Z sm2n: (ql:quickload :mcclim) is failing for me on the package 3bz, with the error "The function SB-VM::MAKE-EA is undefined."
2021-04-11T17:08:03Z jackdaniel: sm2n: it seems to be a problem with sbcl changing its internals (i.e downgrade sbcl). the real problem is a library that depends on the implementation internals
2021-04-11T17:08:12Z jackdaniel: as of why mcclim depends on 3bz - I'd need to check
2021-04-11T17:08:15Z _death: dieggsy: (loop for i = 1 then j #.(read) j = 2 then (+ i j) repeat 10 collect (list i j)) ;; evaluate two times; first enter FOR, then enter AND
2021-04-11T17:09:44Z dieggsy: huh. that seems to go on forever
2021-04-11T17:10:33Z _death: does it? what does (lisp-implementation-version) evaluate to
2021-04-11T17:10:53Z dieggsy: _death: 2.1.1
2021-04-11T17:11:14Z _death: well, assuming it's sbcl, maybe you didn't follow the instructions..
2021-04-11T17:11:25Z _death: it's waiting for input
2021-04-11T17:11:41Z sm2n: oh, there's already an issue
2021-04-11T17:11:42Z sm2n: https://github.com/3b/3bz/issues/11
2021-04-11T17:11:56Z sm2n: guess I need to update my ql dist
2021-04-11T17:12:15Z dieggsy: _death: the problem statement is basically just sum all even fibonacci numbers until some limit FWIW. I can do it using a recursive function but i'm trying to figure it out using loop. not sure why input should be involved.
2021-04-11T17:12:56Z _death: dieggsy: input is involved because I want to show you how FOR and AND differs, so the form I gave asks you what to use
2021-04-11T17:13:28Z _death: dieggsy: it's that "#.(read)" part..
2021-04-11T17:14:02Z dieggsy: _death: oh, no. i got you. I missed the 'ENTER' bit, you're right. my bad again. thanks, this is great and a rather fascinating way to demonstrate the difference heh
2021-04-11T17:14:07Z dieggsy: what does #. do i n this case?
2021-04-11T17:14:31Z _death: #. is read-time evaluation.. so while the form is read, it asks you for the value to use
2021-04-11T17:15:41Z dieggsy: interesting. cool. and does indeed solve my problem in this case actually, i think i was just modifying bits of the code carelessly. thanks!
2021-04-11T17:16:12Z sm2n: jackdaniel, it works now, thanks
2021-04-11T17:18:54Z dieggsy: How uncommon or looked down upon is it to use keywords in loop e.g. (loop :for ... :then )
2021-04-11T17:19:10Z dieggsy: it works, and it kind of separates the keywords with highlighting from the rest of the code. but is this considered bad style?
2021-04-11T17:19:13Z _death: some people like it.. I don't
2021-04-11T17:27:23Z sm2n: I prefer keywords for loop
2021-04-11T17:27:41Z sm2n: don't really think there is consensus for this
2021-04-11T17:27:47Z sm2n: doesn't matter though
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2021-04-11T17:35:30Z mfiano: I like it because a) it highlights it differently which is (imo) easier to read, and b) it doesn't intern symbols into my package, which might make completion of similar symbols more annoying.
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2021-04-11T17:50:54Z Josh_2: same
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2021-04-11T18:01:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't like keywords because all the extra colons are too much syntax for me :)
2021-04-11T18:01:50Z _death: :it :kinda :misses :a :point :of cl:loop
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2021-04-11T18:05:08Z jmercouris: I think either way is OK and will alternate between the two in personal code
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2021-04-11T18:13:41Z _death: this reminds me that I should look into bb1's language frameworks again
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2021-04-11T18:18:20Z jasom: Let me know if this is too off-topic, but woud you call the traditional lisp implementation of incremental compilation a jit or not?  To me, requiring explicit compilation disqualifies something as a JIT, so the traditional implementation is not, but a case could be made for e.g. SBCL where it will sometimes (previously always) compile at EVAL time.
2021-04-11T18:20:33Z jasom: The 3 sides were roughly "All runtime compilation qualifies as JIT" "Compilation must be implicit to qualify as JIT" and "Some form of dynamic recompilation is necessary to qualify as JIT"
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2021-04-11T18:23:42Z _death: I think the JIT buzzword was mainly associated with bytecode that gets compiled to native code
2021-04-11T18:24:08Z _death: well, translated
2021-04-11T18:25:16Z _death: that happened just before the program was run, on the target platform
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2021-04-11T18:26:22Z _death: then there was AOT that had the bytecode translated and the final result delivered, and dotnet had that GAC..
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2021-04-11T18:37:26Z asarch: How do you destroy objects? I mean, I have (defun foo () ...) and then I use (foo ...) and then I no longer need foo. How would I deleted it? (setf foo nil)?
2021-04-11T18:38:40Z lotuseater: i think (fmakunbound 'foo)
2021-04-11T18:39:14Z phadthai: I almost read louseeater :)
2021-04-11T18:40:00Z lotuseater: and giving the same function another symbol name eg ^ for expt does (setf (symbol-function '^) #'expt)
2021-04-11T18:40:07Z lotuseater: okay good :)
2021-04-11T18:41:05Z asarch: Thank you!
2021-04-11T18:41:06Z phadthai: yes removing references to the object should allow it to eventually be freed, the time when it'll actually be done is implementation dependent however, with some implementations allowing to force a GC run or to explicitly free/destroy specific objects
2021-04-11T18:41:11Z asarch: Thank you very much! :-)
2021-04-11T18:41:26Z asarch: BTW, does SBCL have ed?
2021-04-11T18:42:43Z Josh_2: ed is part of the spec
2021-04-11T18:43:23Z lotuseater: ah yes, but don't know how to use
2021-04-11T18:43:46Z asarch: How do you invoke it?
2021-04-11T18:43:52Z asarch: ...in SBCL?
2021-04-11T18:43:56Z Josh_2: Nah doesn't seem to work you are right
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2021-04-11T18:45:54Z _death: (documentation 'ed 'function)
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2021-04-11T18:48:32Z _death: you can add a function that tells swank to tell slime to visit a file, perhaps at some position if source info is available for a function name you might give
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2021-04-11T18:49:44Z semz: swank:ed-in-emacs does that
2021-04-11T18:50:11Z _death: cool.. I forgot about that
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2021-04-11T18:52:46Z _death: the only issue there is that it returns NIL
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2021-04-11T18:59:08Z asarch: How do you personalize Slime?
2021-04-11T18:59:22Z _death: maintain a fork?
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2021-04-11T19:05:10Z Lycurgus: sly has some things built in, eg. choosing the implementation
2021-04-11T19:05:13Z asarch: I mean, its configuration file to add/remove features
2021-04-11T19:06:26Z _death: there's your .emacs, and then there's .swank.lisp for the cl side
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2021-04-11T19:11:55Z alanz: I have sly-edit-definition bound to "g d" via evil-mode. And it works for me, takes me to the source
2021-04-11T19:12:09Z alanz: no custom config
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2021-04-11T19:19:47Z asarch: Thank you guys, thank you very much! :-)
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2021-04-11T19:40:05Z asarch: Here in México a fellows stole a truck (a Hilux pickup) and in the truck there was an industrial device for X rays which uses the Iridium-192 radioactive element. As the meme says: "Kare-ra wa mō shinde iru" X-P
2021-04-11T19:40:37Z Shinmera: Thought I'd also throw it in here that I just released a big update to my game, Kandria, for free: https://reader.tymoon.eu/article/395
2021-04-11T19:40:49Z Shinmera: It's on topic as the game is written entirely in Lisp :)
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2021-04-11T19:53:06Z phoe: Shinmera: I really enjoy reading those, thanks for posting!
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2021-04-11T19:53:34Z Shinmera: Glad to hear!
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2021-04-11T20:19:51Z contrapunctus: Shinmera: fever -> fewer?
2021-04-11T20:20:27Z Shinmera: Fixed, thanks!
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2021-04-11T20:35:33Z Nilby: TIL CEO of Netflix was once a Lisper, worked on a CLIM app
2021-04-11T20:37:03Z lotuseater: uii
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2021-04-11T20:38:01Z lotuseater: and now that is full of so-called microservices
2021-04-11T20:38:11Z Xach: Nilby: was once a coffee-fetching intern at symbolics, even
2021-04-11T20:38:20Z mfiano: Co-CEO
2021-04-11T20:40:47Z lotuseater: any lisp connected internship would be awesome, but no chance at all :(
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2021-04-11T20:55:56Z contrapunctus: lotuseater: looked here? https://github.com/azzamsa/awesome-lisp-companies
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2021-04-11T20:56:41Z lotuseater: yes i know that repo, but nothing is in my reach or I'm not good enough anyway
2021-04-11T20:58:37Z lotuseater: ok, 6 in germany, but maybe they can only use people with phd
2021-04-11T20:59:25Z contrapunctus: lotuseater: I also know that Bevuta GmbH is the home of most of the CHICKEN Scheme devs, but it's not listed there yet
2021-04-11T21:00:21Z lotuseater: ah chicken, one of the outstanding scheme implementations, right?
2021-04-11T21:00:32Z Shinmera: I wish I had the money to hire another coder
2021-04-11T21:00:36Z lotuseater: but maybe better in #lispcafe
2021-04-11T21:01:04Z lotuseater: why that Shinmera?
2021-04-11T21:01:19Z Shinmera: Why what?
2021-04-11T21:01:22Z contrapunctus: lotuseater: one of the 'practical' ones.
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2021-04-11T21:02:09Z lotuseater: what you meant, hiring another coder
2021-04-11T21:02:36Z Shinmera: because there's a lot of work and only me to do it at the moment?
2021-04-11T21:03:00Z lotuseater: okay seems meaningful ^^
2021-04-11T21:03:52Z lotuseater: here are many very intelligent people :)
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2021-04-11T21:11:35Z lotuseater: do you have an example for the kind or topic of work Shinmera?
2021-04-11T21:12:06Z Shinmera: I posted an article about what I do just before
2021-04-11T21:12:18Z lotuseater: oh sry, yes, i opened
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2021-04-11T21:14:30Z Josh_2: I have a dumped lisp image that depends on slynk, however when I try to connect to it using port forwarding sly always fails
2021-04-11T21:15:25Z Josh_2: dw
2021-04-11T21:15:28Z Josh_2: I got it :P
2021-04-11T21:15:39Z Josh_2: I hadn't restarted bash after modifying my .bashrc
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2021-04-11T21:22:57Z Josh_2: Okay well its working but I get this error when I connect https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2385#2385
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2021-04-11T21:29:36Z Josh_2: Well idk
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2021-04-11T21:30:16Z _death: somewhere, maybe a dot file, you have a reference to this cl-asdf thing.. likely you want to get rid of it
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2021-04-11T21:36:44Z alanz slightly surprised that (car nil) gives nil
2021-04-11T21:37:48Z lotuseater: alanz: it's surprising that (last '(1 2 3)) gives '(3) and not 3
2021-04-11T21:38:06Z alanz: agree.
2021-04-11T21:38:21Z Shinmera: It's the last(cons), not last(element) :shrug:
2021-04-11T21:38:29Z alanz: I'm used to haskell, where things blow up if you use them not as expected.
2021-04-11T21:38:31Z lotuseater: yes i see
2021-04-11T21:38:53Z _death: but it is expected, by lispers
2021-04-11T21:38:55Z lotuseater: haha me too alanz
2021-04-11T21:38:59Z Shinmera: alanz: ? It's specificed that car/cdr of nil is nil.
2021-04-11T21:39:21Z alanz: it was only unexpected to me, I had the wrong expectation
2021-04-11T21:40:32Z lotuseater: so we don't have to struggle with monadic stuff
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2021-04-11T21:42:14Z alanz: you get used to the monadic stuff after a while. Same with rust and its borrow checker.
2021-04-11T21:42:24Z lotuseater: yes
2021-04-11T21:42:50Z alanz: I think every language has things that eventually you internalise and then don't even notice what you are doing. Landmines that you dodge without thinking.
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2021-04-11T21:43:24Z lotuseater: like (format nil "~a" nil) => nil and not ""
2021-04-11T21:43:34Z alanz: yes.
2021-04-11T21:43:46Z lotuseater: or EVENP, ODDP just work on integers, otherwise throws type error
2021-04-11T21:43:59Z alanz: I have to say, I am pretty impressed with the feedback SBCL gives about code, when there are problems
2021-04-11T21:44:18Z _death: eh? (format nil "~A" nil) => "NIL"
2021-04-11T21:44:24Z lotuseater: but the most stuff is very consistent, eg support for 0-dimensional arrays
2021-04-11T21:44:46Z lotuseater: oh damn _death, yes you're right :D
2021-04-11T21:45:59Z _death: these things usually have reasons.. which sometimes (oftentimes) are good
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2021-04-11T21:46:54Z _death: for example, getting the last cons is useful if you want to modify it
2021-04-11T21:47:27Z _death: you can also give an additional argument, to get the nth cons from the end
2021-04-11T21:47:29Z lotuseater: yes most stuff has it's reasons in the spec :)
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2021-04-11T21:48:22Z lotuseater: haha i changed PRINT-OBJECT with eql for NIL to "", funny
2021-04-11T21:48:43Z _death: well, unfortunately the spec doesn't have a Rationale section with all the history :).. but we do have cl-su-ai and c.l.l for example
2021-04-11T21:48:59Z lotuseater: oh what's that?
2021-04-11T21:49:36Z _death: what's what
2021-04-11T21:49:54Z lotuseater: cl-su-ai and c.l.l
2021-04-11T21:51:09Z ebrasca: Why?
2021-04-11T21:51:15Z _death: cl-su-ai is a mail archive containing some discussions from the CL standardization effort https://cl-su-ai.cddddr.org/
2021-04-11T21:51:29Z moon-child: c.l.l is the comp.lang.lisp newsgroup
2021-04-11T21:51:43Z moon-child: (not deceased, but probably on its last elbows)
2021-04-11T21:51:46Z lotuseater: ah
2021-04-11T21:52:04Z lotuseater: yes i found the cddddr site :)
2021-04-11T21:53:37Z _death: I put it and some other archives here https://github.com/death/gnus-friendly-archives
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2021-04-11T22:23:57Z ebrasca: wow
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2021-04-12T00:14:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: moon-child: usenet is in this weird sort of undead state these days
2021-04-12T00:17:06Z moon-child: fiddlerwoaroof: some groups are alive and well . . . more's the pity
2021-04-12T00:17:10Z moon-child: c.l.c is a cesspool
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2021-04-12T00:48:44Z loke[m]: moon-child is that wj guy still posting there?
2021-04-12T00:50:04Z moon-child: no idea, I stopped frequenting it
2021-04-12T00:50:18Z moon-child: (still in my newsrc, though--should probably get rid of that)
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2021-04-12T00:56:43Z loke[m]: moon-child I was almost impressed with by his consistency. How can you spend years doing that stuff over and over again.
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2021-04-12T00:57:14Z no-defun-allowed: wj guy?
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2021-04-12T01:01:45Z Bike: the few times i've looked at c.l.c this guy wj made a ton of posts about how CL sucked.
2021-04-12T01:01:55Z Bike: like a ton of posts. some kind of bot i guess.
2021-04-12T01:02:45Z moon-child: the main ~spammers I remember are rick c hodgin (religious propaganda) and prof. fir (all-around fun times)
2021-04-12T01:02:53Z moon-child: oh, also suresh
2021-04-12T01:03:26Z no-defun-allowed: raisins CL sucks 1. Only common why would you not use items with higher rarity 2. No abelian groups for pure IO 3. Too fast, can't overcharge people for rewriting in C
2021-04-12T01:03:41Z semz: wait a second, what is c.l.c? i assumed comp.lang.c, but anti-CL posts sound out of place
2021-04-12T01:03:42Z Bike: is the IO monad abelian
2021-04-12T01:03:51Z Bike: semz: again, this was spammy
2021-04-12T01:04:05Z semz: oh i see. wild stuff
2021-04-12T01:04:07Z Bike: oh, sorry, iw as thinking of c.l.l
2021-04-12T01:04:11Z Bike: i don't know what c.l.c is
2021-04-12T01:05:06Z no-defun-allowed: Bike: no, else IO would be commutative and that wouldn't help with "sequencing" IO
2021-04-12T01:05:17Z Bike: makes sense
2021-04-12T01:05:35Z no-defun-allowed: I think that's how it is, I dunno and only came up with Abelian IO for the joke.
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2021-04-12T01:18:25Z dieggsy: is there a concise way to say "1e6 as an integer" short of flooring it
2021-04-12T01:18:55Z Bike: Do you mean you want a shorter integer literal syntax?
2021-04-12T01:19:04Z Bike: or do you have some float at runtime and you want an integer.
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2021-04-12T01:21:27Z dieggsy: Bike: The former, I think. I want to be able to type "the integer 1e6" without 1000000 or (floor 1e6)
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2021-04-12T01:22:30Z Bike: i see. there's no built in way. if you wanted you could probably write a reader macro fairly simply.
2021-04-12T01:22:43Z Bike: i wanna say i've seen "1r6" as an extension before, but i don't remember
2021-04-12T01:23:10Z dieggsy: fair. thanks!
2021-04-12T01:23:49Z edgar-rft: what about (expt 10 6)
2021-04-12T01:25:19Z Bike: that's more characters than 1000000
2021-04-12T01:25:33Z Bike: though i'm going to imagine dieggsy is more concerned about 1e27 or suchlike
2021-04-12T01:25:58Z edgar-rft: "the integer 1e6" is also more characters than 1000000
2021-04-12T01:25:59Z dieggsy: edgar-rft: lol, certainly an option actually. Bike right.
2021-04-12T01:26:21Z dieggsy: edgar-rft: that wasn't literal though, just what i *meant*
2021-04-12T01:26:31Z dieggsy: scheme (don't kill me) has #e1e6
2021-04-12T01:27:12Z dieggsy: suppose it could just be implemented with a reader macro as mentioned
2021-04-12T01:27:18Z edgar-rft: expt is what I am using for huge bignums, you're of course free to use something different
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2021-04-12T01:30:50Z Bike: oh, it's actually really easy because of how dispatching macro characters work
2021-04-12T01:31:13Z Bike: (defun sharp-e (stream sub num) (declare (ignore sub)) (* num (expt 10 (read stream t nil t))))
2021-04-12T01:31:21Z Bike: (possibly with more error checking)
2021-04-12T01:32:03Z no-defun-allowed: So that would read #1e10?
2021-04-12T01:32:10Z Bike: yeah
2021-04-12T01:32:48Z edgar-rft: using 1e<n> is rather seldom, you usually need numbers like 127364538463e16278364536372 and I doubt that this can be shortened by a read macro
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2021-04-12T07:16:18Z splittist: If we're suggesting alternative numeric literal syntax, python allowing #\_ as a separator seems nice. 1_000_000 or #b1001_1001_1111 or #xDE_AD_BE_EF (:
2021-04-12T07:17:50Z moon-child: splittist: agreed
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2021-04-12T07:42:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: splittist: although, I sort of like the model used by the "numderline" font patching tool: make display conventions for numeric literals a font feature rather than actual source characters
2021-04-12T07:43:07Z moon-child: hmmm.  I'm not really a fan of things like that
2021-04-12T07:43:35Z moon-child: (nor ligatures.)  From the rendering side, I want my texteditor to be a relatively dumb grid of characters.  Plus some colour, maybe
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2021-04-12T07:49:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: I agree about ligatures
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2021-04-12T07:49:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think formatting numbers readably is more like syntax highlighting than ligatures, though
2021-04-12T07:50:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: The issue with a python-style 1_000_000 is, now I have all sorts of issues when I want to copy the numbers from my source code somewhere else
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2021-04-12T07:51:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: And similar issues if *PRINT-PRETTY* decides to include the grouping character
2021-04-12T07:51:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: I sort of wonder if the issue could be solved with a font-lock rule for which characters to color slightly differently
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2021-04-12T07:55:42Z moon-child: colouration could work, but I think I prefer inline _.  Copy-pasting--is that really such a concern?  I almost never do that.  In particular, I don't think it's particularly reasonable to expect forms from one language to be compatible with forms from another, as a general rule
2021-04-12T07:57:11Z White_Flame slowly slides the term "presentation" into the conversation
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2021-04-12T08:03:52Z Nilby: There's this 10̦000̦00 or this 10̲000̲00 but I think they're more trouble than they're worth.
2021-04-12T08:03:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: White_Flame: exactly
2021-04-12T08:04:36Z White_Flame: dead text chars are an anti-pattern
2021-04-12T08:05:24Z moon-child: White_Flame: do you avoid whitespace, then?
2021-04-12T08:05:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: moon-child: copy-pasting isn't a huge concern, but I find it irritating when I have to reformat basic data types between langauges
2021-04-12T08:05:55Z White_Flame: solving these issues necessarily means replacing ecosystems
2021-04-12T08:06:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: Print syntax is more important here than read syntax, though
2021-04-12T08:06:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: Anyways: Excel and other spreadsheet tools have all sorts of nice number formatting options
2021-04-12T08:06:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: It'd be great for me to be able to set such display options on a variable-by-variable basis :)
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2021-04-12T08:08:02Z White_Flame: hmm, but when copying a cell (at least in libreoffice), you get the presentation form, not the raw form
2021-04-12T08:08:08Z White_Flame: when pasting into a text buffer
2021-04-12T08:09:26Z Nilby: fiddlerwoaroof: (setf (get 'x 'number-style) 'fancy)
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2021-04-12T08:09:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: White_Flame: that's sort of a bug, though
2021-04-12T08:09:40Z Nilby: Now you just need a thing to show it.
2021-04-12T08:10:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: And, I don't think Excel has that limitation: at least, you can choose whether to paste the display formatting or the values at paste time
2021-04-12T08:10:42Z Nilby: There have been Lisp systems where symbols have special presentation.
2021-04-12T08:10:45Z White_Flame: I mean pasting into a text editor
2021-04-12T08:11:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: Well, that's because of limitations of the normal copy/paste protocols
2021-04-12T08:11:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: And/or the application's use of them
2021-04-12T08:12:13Z White_Flame: yep.  The general problem IMO is the Unix/C model of naked char buffers for everything
2021-04-12T08:12:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: macOS, at least, has typed clipboards
2021-04-12T08:12:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: And you can request data of a certain type from the clipboard
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2021-04-12T08:13:20Z moon-child: sounds like COM
2021-04-12T08:13:21Z White_Flame: pretty sure such things are in windows & linux, too
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2021-04-12T08:13:38Z White_Flame: but in the latter, the stars have to align through the bazaar
2021-04-12T08:13:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: In fact, macOS's biggest technical advantage is that it's _not_ based on the Unix/C model of text everywhere for the user-facing parts
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2021-04-12T08:14:15Z White_Flame: yep
2021-04-12T08:14:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's based on the Objective-C runtime, which is basically a limited Smalltalk
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2021-04-12T08:20:13Z splittist: The most important syntax is the one I'm presenting to myself in my source code: did I just type one hundred million or a billion? Let me move my cursor over the number as I count... 100_000_000 makes it obvious to my most important reader - me (:
2021-04-12T08:22:04Z jdz: splittist: #.(truncate 1.0e8)
2021-04-12T08:22:42Z jdz: But yes, I sometimes struggle with numbers like these, too.
2021-04-12T08:23:33Z jdz: Usually by moving cursor to position 3 from the right, and then selecting 3 next digits left.
2021-04-12T08:23:35Z White_Flame: ##Eleventy_Billion
2021-04-12T08:23:51Z jdz: And hoping that counting the rest will not be a problem.
2021-04-12T08:24:31Z White_Flame: (ah, ## is already taken)
2021-04-12T08:25:56Z jdz: #r should be extended to accept #\" as the base, so then: #r"one hundred million billion".
2021-04-12T08:26:08Z moon-child: haha
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2021-04-12T08:26:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: this is sort of interesting, in Emacs: (gui-get-selection 'CLIPBOARD (intern "text/html"))
2021-04-12T08:26:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: e.g. copy from LibreOffice Calc and then run that
2021-04-12T08:26:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: (gui-backend-get-selection 'CLIPBOARD 'TARGETS) shows all the possible target formats
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2021-04-12T08:29:57Z Nilby: The natural way of representing numbers is of course recursive, so any linearization into bits is somewhat fake.
2021-04-12T08:30:29Z Nilby: and hard to type
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2021-04-12T08:31:02Z moon-child: 'hard to type' I would rather type 7 than (S (S (S (S (S (S (S Z)))))))
2021-04-12T08:31:45Z Nilby: You
2021-04-12T08:32:12Z Nilby: You'd only have to type the last S, since you'd have the others hanging around;
2021-04-12T08:33:26Z Nilby: Exceopt in the very early or non-viable universes.
2021-04-12T08:35:28Z Nilby: Also 1e6 is quite composite.
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2021-04-12T08:57:28Z jdz: The problem with "scientific notation" is that it only works for many trailing zeroes.
2021-04-12T08:57:53Z moon-child: right
2021-04-12T08:57:54Z no-defun-allowed: 1e#.1e100
2021-04-12T08:57:56Z moon-child: 1.273849e6 isn't better than 1273849
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2021-04-12T09:01:20Z Nilby: And worse, they aren't really zeros in binary.
2021-04-12T09:02:47Z moon-child: well, they can be
2021-04-12T09:02:59Z moon-child: 100 is 1100100b--both of them have 2 trailing zeroes ;)
2021-04-12T09:04:31Z contrapunctus: Shinmera: it seems you changed the licenses for some of your projects from Artistic to zlib, but the accompanying web pages still name the former as the license. I figured you might want to update them, to avoid confusion.
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2021-04-12T09:06:29Z Shinmera: I might want to, but it's very low on my priority list.
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2021-04-12T09:13:50Z contrapunctus: Shinmera: is your website not in a repo I can make a PR for? 🤔 I couldn't find a repo. Or, wait, are those generated docs?
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2021-04-12T09:15:01Z Shinmera: each repo has a docs/ folder. That's where the sources are for those. And yes they're generated, but once per repo, so it's a pain in the ass.
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2021-04-12T10:51:28Z Demosthenex: ok, i'm trying to work with a script i wrote that import's a library using it's pathname, but that seems to fail in sly/slime
2021-04-12T10:51:55Z Demosthenex: is there a way to run different code if slime is loading the script?
2021-04-12T10:51:59Z Demosthenex: maybe i can prompt for paths
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2021-04-12T10:56:32Z Nilby: You could use #+(or swank slynk) . I'm not sure what you mean by import though. It's probably best to make it work without special code.
2021-04-12T10:59:35Z Demosthenex: Nilby: i'm trying to make it so that i can eval my buffer to load it into repl, and there are assumptions made about the path... so i'd like to wrap that in some code wwhich detects that i'm running in swank/sly/slime so i can address the mising data
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2021-04-12T11:07:40Z Nilby: Ah. There's lots of ways to address the issue. #+ conditionals are the simplest, but maybe most brittle. You could also use logical-pathname-translations, to make a path prefix, then say (load "my-stuff:foo.lisp") But, loading with asdf or quicklisp is probably the most usual.
2021-04-12T11:18:02Z Demosthenex: maybe i need to wrap my final code in a main function, and then only call that when i use --script
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2021-04-12T11:40:41Z Demosthenex: is there a way i can say "call (main) only if called from sbcl --script, ie: not sly?"
2021-04-12T11:42:38Z Nilby: If you're using reader conditionals, you can use the negative: #-(or swank slynk)
2021-04-12T11:45:25Z Demosthenex: Nilby: cool, i'll try that
2021-04-12T11:45:26Z Nilby: But perhaps it's best to put whatever you want to do only interactively in separate function.
2021-04-12T11:46:27Z Nilby: Or what you want to do only in a script in separate file.
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2021-04-12T13:46:18Z rumbler31: Xach: I don't know if this would be useful to have in quicklisp, but I wrote a function to copy a single local project into the bundle directory.  Problems that I see with adopting it are that I don't yet account for dependencies that might need to be pulled in from other local projects, and discovery of the bundled location on the user's behalf (which might be impossible)
2021-04-12T13:46:35Z rumbler31: the goal is to reduce the amount of code that makes it into the bundle, I don't want all of my local projects to get pulled in
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2021-04-12T13:47:14Z rumbler31: are you aware of any other problems with this approach that I might have missed?
2021-04-12T13:47:39Z Xach: rumbler31: how does it copy things?
2021-04-12T13:50:03Z rumbler31: you mean what library does it use?
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2021-04-12T13:51:37Z rumbler31: I'm not in front of the code but I think I use asdf to find the named package locations, make pathnames for each of the .lisp and .asd files found in that directory to the location of the bundle/local-projects/myproject folder and does a uiop file copy
2021-04-12T13:51:54Z Xach: quicklisp does not depend on UIOP
2021-04-12T13:52:09Z rumbler31: I think I can just crib the code and write it myself
2021-04-12T13:52:20Z rumbler31: unless there are licensing issues
2021-04-12T13:52:55Z rumbler31: but isn't uiop brought in by asdf?
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2021-04-12T13:54:08Z Xach: Sure. But I don't put references to UIOP into quicklisp client code.
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2021-04-12T13:54:47Z Xach: rumbler31: I'd look at what ql-minitar does, I think, except copying from filesystem files rather than a tar stream.
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2021-04-12T13:56:26Z brandflake11: Hello all. Have you worked with extremely large datasets in lisp before? I'm trying to load in a huge list to use with lisp (800000+ lines), but it seems like sbcl freezes everytime I do that. Do I just have to wait for it to load in, even though sbcl says it's not taking any cpu? What has been your experience with large datasets in lisp?
2021-04-12T13:56:56Z Xach: brandflake11: sometimes the freeze is when it tries to print the result, not loading or working with it. one option is to set *print-length* to something like 100.
2021-04-12T13:57:21Z Xach: brandflake11: using too much memory results in a different symptom (landing in ldb or crashing outright)
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2021-04-12T13:58:44Z brandflake11: Xach: I see. Let me test limiting *print-length* and see what happens
2021-04-12T13:58:48Z Nilby: I've used much bigger datasets and the important thing is set --dynamic-space-size high enough, and don't print it.
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2021-04-12T13:59:24Z brandflake11: Nilby: I don't know anything about dynamic-space-size. Do you set this when loading sbcl, or can you set it with a global variable?
2021-04-12T13:59:35Z Xach: brandflake11: it's a command-line argument
2021-04-12T13:59:41Z Xach: brandflake11: cannot be adjusted at runtime
2021-04-12T13:59:57Z brandflake11: Xach: Okay, I'll look at the man page to see more about it
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2021-04-12T14:00:43Z brandflake11: If *print-length* is nil, does that mean there is no limit?
2021-04-12T14:00:49Z phoe: yes
2021-04-12T14:00:53Z brandflake11: Thanks!
2021-04-12T14:01:26Z phoe: CLHS says, "If [*PRINT-LENGTH*] is false, there is no limit to the number of components printed."
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2021-04-12T14:01:53Z brandflake11: Oh, I didn't know the hyperspec had info about global variables that are important.
2021-04-12T14:02:24Z phoe: it's the full rendition of the standard, it must have all the variables
2021-04-12T14:02:26Z phoe: clhs *print-level*
2021-04-12T14:02:26Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_pr_lev.htm
2021-04-12T14:03:08Z brandflake11: Yep, that makes more sense. Thanks a lot all for the helpful advice!
2021-04-12T14:05:08Z Nilby: As you may know, a list isn't the best data structure for huge data sets.
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2021-04-12T14:05:38Z phoe: Nilby: huh?
2021-04-12T14:06:04Z beach: Nilby: That totally depends on the operations that are expected.
2021-04-12T14:06:46Z Nilby: Yes. Like anything except traversing it in order.
2021-04-12T14:06:59Z phoe: Nilby: I mean, what's the context?
2021-04-12T14:07:04Z Nilby: Also takes too much space.
2021-04-12T14:07:18Z brandflake11: Nilby: I took a .csv file and converted it into one big list of lists to then parse out later as OSC commands. At this point in my lisp journey, it seemed like the simplest option.
2021-04-12T14:08:03Z brandflake11: But I'm still having trouble getting the list to even load. I need to try to dynamic-space-size option
2021-04-12T14:08:21Z phoe: oh, I see the context now
2021-04-12T14:08:46Z phoe: brandflake11: how does it hang? if you're using slime/sly, check the inferior-lisp buffer
2021-04-12T14:08:59Z phoe: maybe you need more heap to be able to load this much at once, if you get an error about heap exhausted in there
2021-04-12T14:09:21Z brandflake11: I use a (with-open-file) function to load the file with just the list in it
2021-04-12T14:09:35Z beach: brandflake11: 800000 lines doesn't sound like much, depending on what a "line" is of course.
2021-04-12T14:09:36Z brandflake11: I'll check that buffer
2021-04-12T14:09:38Z phoe: yes, but how do you run Lisp? with slime/sly from emacs? just from the terminal?
2021-04-12T14:09:47Z brandflake11: With slime+emacs
2021-04-12T14:10:02Z phoe: in the former case, you can get the REPL to "hang" if the inferior lisp crashes hard
2021-04-12T14:10:06Z phoe: e.g. due to OOM
2021-04-12T14:10:48Z brandflake11: phoe: You are so right, I get this "Heap exhausted during garbage collection: 48 bytes available, 64 requested. "
2021-04-12T14:11:26Z jdz: Also it might be a good idea to process lines as they are parsed from the file (say by providing a callback function to run on each parsed line) instead of doing it in two stages.
2021-04-12T14:11:58Z brandflake11: I don't know how to mitigate the heap exhausted error!
2021-04-12T14:11:59Z jdz: Another option is to use two threads with a size-limited "line buffer".
2021-04-12T14:13:11Z brandflake11: jdz: Well, the list is a dataset with times of events and the events themselves. So, I want to be able to replay these events in order
2021-04-12T14:13:44Z jdz: And in the file they may be out-of-order?
2021-04-12T14:13:54Z brandflake11: jdz: No they are all in order
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2021-04-12T14:15:25Z phoe: brandflake11: run SBCL with a larger heap, if you have enough RAM
2021-04-12T14:16:11Z brandflake11: phoe: What command line option can you use to do that?
2021-04-12T14:16:25Z phoe: $ sbcl --dynamic-space-size $((8 * 1024))
2021-04-12T14:16:31Z phoe: that'll give you a 8 GB heap
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2021-04-12T14:16:43Z brandflake11: phoe: Oh it's the same one, thank you and sorry for my lack of understanding!
2021-04-12T14:17:07Z jdz: I use a couple tricks when doing this on SBCL: a) if the text does not have any unicode characters coercing each line into SIMPLE-BASE-STRING, and b) if there are fields that may have duplicate (string) values longer than 8 characters then using a hash-table to de-duplicate them.
2021-04-12T14:17:51Z brandflake11: When doing this option with slime, do you just set the option in emacs's inferior-lisp-program variable?
2021-04-12T14:18:12Z jdz: brandflake11: Run slime a prefix argument.
2021-04-12T14:18:32Z jdz: I.e., C-u M-x slime
2021-04-12T14:18:53Z phoe: brandflake11: my elisp variable, inferior-lisp-program, is "ros dynamic-space-size=8192 -Q run"
2021-04-12T14:18:59Z phoe: so it sure takes multiple arguments
2021-04-12T14:19:06Z brandflake11: Oh nice.
2021-04-12T14:19:19Z phoe: (the only difference is that it runs SBCL via roswell)
2021-04-12T14:19:59Z Nilby: I just tested reading a 800+k line 217.3M csv with the naive list reader with --dynamic-space-size 4096 and it was fine. (The slow part is guessing the column data types)
2021-04-12T14:20:43Z brandflake11: I just set it to "/usr/bin/sbcl --dynamic-space-size 2048". I'll see what happens
2021-04-12T14:20:57Z brandflake11: I just set inferior-lisp-program I mean
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2021-04-12T14:21:12Z phoe: should work
2021-04-12T14:21:31Z phoe: increase it further if 2GB is still too low
2021-04-12T14:21:45Z phoe: (you might need to download more RAM if you start swapping though)
2021-04-12T14:22:13Z brandflake11: lol, I have a fast internet connection, downloading more ram should be no problem XD
2021-04-12T14:23:54Z brandflake11: Where can you check the heap size at of sbcl while it's running?
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2021-04-12T14:24:01Z brandflake11: Will it just take more ram?
2021-04-12T14:24:17Z phoe: SB-EXT:DYNAMIC-SPACE-SIZE
2021-04-12T14:24:24Z phoe: it won't auto-expand, unlike e.g. CCL
2021-04-12T14:25:20Z brandflake11: I get DYNAMIC-SPACE-SIZE is unbound, so I'm guessing setting it where I did with the emacs variable didn't work
2021-04-12T14:25:35Z phoe: oh! it's a function
2021-04-12T14:25:50Z phoe: (SB-EXT:DYNAMIC-SPACE-SIZE) ;=> 8589934592
2021-04-12T14:26:10Z brandflake11: Okay, so here is what I got 3223322624
2021-04-12T14:26:15Z Nilby: also (room)
2021-04-12T14:27:06Z brandflake11: From room: Dynamic space usage is:   153,945,456 bytes.
2021-04-12T14:27:14Z brandflake11: That's not right, it should be 3GB
2021-04-12T14:27:20Z phoe: that's the used space
2021-04-12T14:27:24Z phoe: not the free one
2021-04-12T14:27:46Z phoe: but, 3223322624 === (* 1024 1024 3074)
2021-04-12T14:27:54Z phoe: which is just a wee bit above 3gb
2021-04-12T14:28:00Z brandflake11: Oh okay, so it did work.
2021-04-12T14:28:28Z brandflake11: Oh man, I'm glad you all helped me with this. I would not have been able to figure this out on my own
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2021-04-12T14:30:23Z brandflake11: I was really worried lisp just wasn't able to handle huge datasets, but i'm glad that it was just a matter of increasing the ram allowed to it
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2021-04-12T14:30:48Z Xach: Lisp can handle all kinds of nutty stuff
2021-04-12T14:30:56Z beach: brandflake11: Either way, it would not be a language limitation, but a limitation on specific implementations.
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2021-04-12T14:31:31Z ldbeth: good evening
2021-04-12T14:31:42Z brandflake11: beach: I always forget about that too. I love how it is just a standard
2021-04-12T14:32:03Z beach: brandflake11: Also, it is not RAM that you are assigning, it is just heap size.  If you have virtual memory, that would work too, but more slowly.
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2021-04-12T14:32:15Z brandflake11: beach: Oh, that makes more sense
2021-04-12T14:32:28Z Nilby: There is even hope on the horizon that sbcl will be able to increase it's own memory.
2021-04-12T14:32:40Z phoe: yes, some of that heap can (and likely will) get swapped to disk by the OS
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2021-04-12T14:33:09Z phoe: so you can have a 32G heap on 8G of RAM, if that is what you want and need
2021-04-12T14:33:49Z brandflake11: I'll have to give a shoutout to ssds then. They are a lifesaver
2021-04-12T14:34:08Z ldbeth: is it possible to transparently store lisp datum on disk via mmap
2021-04-12T14:34:34Z brandflake11: 6gb wasn't enough yet for the list, so I'm trying 7 now!
2021-04-12T14:35:46Z beach: ldbeth: Probably not.  You would somehow have to teach the garbage collector where to find it.  Plus, the way a lisp object is represented is not standardized.
2021-04-12T14:37:18Z Nilby: Acutally there's a lisp mmaped databse
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2021-04-12T14:37:39Z brandflake11: I just got the database list assigned as a variable. You guys all rock. Thank you so much for the help and teaching me something
2021-04-12T14:37:55Z brandflake11: It's taking 9gb of space. Yikes!
2021-04-12T14:38:06Z Nilby: It's not totally transparent though
2021-04-12T14:38:06Z brandflake11: *memory
2021-04-12T14:38:10Z ldbeth: a list? :)
2021-04-12T14:38:35Z Nilby: brandflake11: What was the size of your file?
2021-04-12T14:38:46Z ldbeth: it it likly to save some memory if it is an array
2021-04-12T14:38:48Z brandflake11: The file itself as just text was about 800mb
2021-04-12T14:39:15Z brandflake11: That's pretty big for a plain text file isn't it?
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2021-04-12T14:39:37Z jcowan: back to numeric representations: in Scheme, #e forces a float-style syntax to be implemented as an exact number:  thus #e1e20 is the integer 1^20, and #e1.5 is 3/2.
2021-04-12T14:40:50Z jcowan: Note that this is not just a coercion:  1e400 is normally infinity, but #e1e400 is the integer 10^400.
2021-04-12T14:41:14Z phoe: I don't think there's a standard CL way other than #.(* 1 (expt 1 20)) for integers and #.(rational ...) for ratios
2021-04-12T14:41:52Z ldbeth: make-load-form something
2021-04-12T14:42:16Z Nilby: 9gb seems like something is taking too much seeing for a 800mb file
2021-04-12T14:42:28Z jcowan: s/1^20/10^20
2021-04-12T14:43:20Z ldbeth: Yes, ideally it should be around 1GB if applied some clever encoding
2021-04-12T14:44:11Z brandflake11: Nilby: maybe I did something wrong. I got it all loaded in though, so that's what I'm happy about
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2021-04-12T14:45:10Z ldbeth: for example, a trie can significantly reduce the space of string data
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2021-04-12T14:46:42Z brandflake11: Maybe I should just use cl-csv instead now. I couldn't get that to load in the .csv file (I didn't know about checking *inferior-lisp* buffer to see that the heap was too low) so I turned the .csv into a list of lists using bash sed.
2021-04-12T14:46:50Z brandflake11: That's when I came here to ask for help
2021-04-12T14:47:33Z brandflake11: Because that was also too big for the heap size
2021-04-12T14:48:32Z beach: brandflake11: What does your data look like?
2021-04-12T14:48:49Z beach: brandflake11: Numbers?  Strings?  Characters?
2021-04-12T14:48:55Z brandflake11: ("0.000000" "1" "68" "92.45.54.178" "10.50.209.134" "" "" "" "" "" "116" "UDP")
2021-04-12T14:49:01Z brandflake11: A whole bunch of this ^
2021-04-12T14:50:05Z beach: Is there a lot of duplication?
2021-04-12T14:50:56Z brandflake11: No, each event is important.
2021-04-12T14:51:22Z beach: For example, if you have lots of empty strings, then the reader will allocate a separate empty string for each one.  That could become quite wasteful.
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2021-04-12T14:51:41Z brandflake11: beach: Oh, I wouldn't know how to mitigate that though
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2021-04-12T14:51:57Z brandflake11: beach: Can you just turn "" into nil?
2021-04-12T14:53:11Z beach: You could do that, but if you do it after the thing is read, then you still need as much space, at least temporarily.
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2021-04-12T14:57:46Z beach: brandflake11: When I asked about duplication, I didn't necessarily mean the full list in your example, but also individual elements such as "1" or "10.50.209.134".
2021-04-12T14:58:10Z brandflake11: beach: Oh, yeah, in that case there is a lot of duplication
2021-04-12T14:58:37Z beach: Then, if those items are immutable, a hash table will do wonders.
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2021-04-12T14:59:17Z brandflake11: beach: I'll look into hash tables. I have never used a hash table before. It's not hard to grasp is it?
2021-04-12T14:59:23Z phoe: not at all
2021-04-12T14:59:35Z phoe: ever heard of a data structure called a map?
2021-04-12T14:59:35Z beach: brandflake11: Wow, is Common Lisp your first programming language?
2021-04-12T14:59:56Z brandflake11: phoe: No I've never heard of a map either.
2021-04-12T15:00:15Z beach: brandflake11: Does your file consist of a single huge list, where each element is a list as in the example above?
2021-04-12T15:01:35Z brandflake11: beach: It's pretty much my first serious programming language. I am from the Music and Composition and Linux world, where I learned pure data as my first language. I learned a little bit of C++ on my own time last year, and then discovered common music, which brought me into common lisp. I love the syntax and realtime feeling of common lisp, so I've been learning it now to do other stuff
2021-04-12T15:01:56Z phoe: brandflake11: oh, nice!
2021-04-12T15:02:23Z brandflake11: beach:  Yes, exactly, it's just a big list of those lists I showed you
2021-04-12T15:02:35Z phoe: wrt books, you might want to read either Gentle or Practical Common Lisp; I'd recommend that you start with the former, and if you find it too gentle indeed, then switch to PCL
2021-04-12T15:02:41Z phoe: minion: tell brandflake11 about gentle
2021-04-12T15:02:42Z minion: brandflake11: look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/
2021-04-12T15:02:46Z phoe: minion: tell brandflake11 about pcl
2021-04-12T15:02:46Z minion: brandflake11: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2021-04-12T15:03:12Z brandflake11: phoe: Oh yeah, I've gotten to chapter 3 of practical common lisp (not very far I know). I need to keep working at it
2021-04-12T15:03:33Z phoe: personally I think that the second chapter of PCL is the worst
2021-04-12T15:03:38Z brandflake11: Actually people on here recommend I read Practical Common Lisp. It was all thanks to this IRC channel!
2021-04-12T15:03:39Z beach: brandflake11: Then, what I would do would be to not read the entire thing with a single READ, but to read one element list (as in your example) at a time, then process it by checking whether an element is in a hash table, and if so, reuse it.
2021-04-12T15:03:52Z beach: brandflake11: Your memory use would drop dramatically.
2021-04-12T15:04:06Z phoe: oh wait, it's chapter 3
2021-04-12T15:04:45Z brandflake11: beach: Thank you I really appreciate your suggestion. I'll look into doing that to reduce memory
2021-04-12T15:04:48Z phoe: in my opinion, PCL chapter 3 goes straight into business without explaining that the first practical chapter with disc DB is likely not meant to be fully understood straight away and is rather meant to give the reader an overall feeling of how to work with the language
2021-04-12T15:05:14Z phoe: it's the only explanation I see for "chapter 3 is where we make a database, and chapter 4 is where we actually start explaining what we've done"
2021-04-12T15:05:44Z brandflake11: phoe: I stopped reading it because I was more interested in making music with Common Lisp. I've been reading Heinrich Taube's "Notes from the MetaLevel" at the moment instead to get more music making done
2021-04-12T15:06:15Z brandflake11: phoe: Thank you though, I plan on keep going with it. I want to be able to do cool stuff with lisp
2021-04-12T15:06:38Z phoe: oooh, I see
2021-04-12T15:07:03Z phoe: does this book use common music?
2021-04-12T15:07:16Z brandflake11: Yes, the old Common Music 2.0 that still used common lisp
2021-04-12T15:07:24Z phoe: TIL!
2021-04-12T15:07:29Z phoe memorizes
2021-04-12T15:08:06Z brandflake11: phoe: There is a version of Common Music that integrates a realtime midi out using incudine. That's the version I'm using now
2021-04-12T15:08:47Z brandflake11: I'm able to use emacs as my music composition tool, which is really cool and spit out midi through jack to my synths and other toosl
2021-04-12T15:08:59Z brandflake11: C-t toosl
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2021-04-12T15:50:21Z kevingal: I've had this in my bookmarks for ages, been meaning to try it out: https://nunotrocado.com/software/cl-collider-tutorial-1.html
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2021-04-12T15:50:34Z kevingal: Might be interesting for anyone who wants to make music with CL.
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2021-04-12T15:57:19Z rumbler31_: Xach: you got a link to ql-minitar?  google is not helping me
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2021-04-12T15:59:32Z Nilby: ql-minitar is inside the quicklisp client, so ~/quicklisp/quicklisp/minitar.lisp
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2021-04-12T16:07:14Z rumbler31_: kevingal: check this out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqwuIfl-G1w&t=189s
2021-04-12T16:07:19Z rumbler31_: and all his other videos
2021-04-12T16:12:49Z rumbler31_: nilby: oh thanks
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2021-04-12T16:29:32Z kevingal: rumbler31_: super cool!
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2021-04-12T17:55:01Z CL-ASHOK: Quick Qn
2021-04-12T17:55:29Z CL-ASHOK: How do I "minimise" emacs terminal? I'm trying to run a Hunchentoot process, but want to return to the terminal (this is on a VM)
2021-04-12T17:56:57Z Xach: CL-ASHOK: i use screen for that
2021-04-12T17:58:04Z CL-ASHOK: @xach: what is that? (I'm currently remote into a Google VM with the non-gui emacs)
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2021-04-12T18:02:35Z Bike: it's a terminal multiplexer program https://www.gnu.org/software/screen/
2021-04-12T18:03:03Z CL-ASHOK: Thanks!
2021-04-12T18:04:01Z Bike: it's not as sophisticated, but you could also suspend the emacs process with probably control z
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2021-04-12T18:08:11Z CL-ASHOK: but would that stop Hunchentoot?
2021-04-12T18:09:29Z Bike: i don't remember
2021-04-12T18:10:01Z CL-ASHOK: No worries, thanks for your help. I will use screen
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2021-04-12T19:18:15Z jcowan: NOTHING CAN STOP HUNCHENTOOT
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2021-04-12T19:56:42Z nij: Hello, is there any functional "package manager" (or rather, system manager) for common lisp? I'm thinking of it as an analogue of straight.el (for elisp).
2021-04-12T19:57:03Z gabc: Well there's quicklisp
2021-04-12T19:57:11Z gabc: And it's quite functional
2021-04-12T19:57:18Z nij: "functional" in that a declarative file can reproduce all systems
2021-04-12T19:58:11Z gabc: yeah I made a cheap pun of "functional" that "it does its function well"
2021-04-12T19:58:35Z Shinmera: nij: what does it mean to 'reproduce all systems'? Download them? Load them into the image?
2021-04-12T19:58:47Z nij: Shinmera: just to download them.
2021-04-12T19:59:03Z nij: For example, straight.el lets you do this : (el-patch :type git :host github :repo "raxod502/el-patch")
2021-04-12T19:59:30Z Shinmera: just put (ql:quickload '(a b c)) into a file then or is that not declarative enough
2021-04-12T19:59:41Z nij: With this in a declarative file, which is run by the package/system manager, the corresponding package/system will be fetched.
2021-04-12T20:00:09Z nij: Shinmera: yes, that's what I do now.
2021-04-12T20:00:22Z nij: However, can I specify the versions and recipes of the packages/systems?
2021-04-12T20:01:05Z Shinmera: No, quicklisp packages snappshots of the ecosystem so that all the libraries are versioned as one thing at once, since usually systems do not specify versioned dependencies.
2021-04-12T20:01:06Z nij: E.g. I might want ql to fetch the system from a specific repo (maybe even local!).. and I might want a specific version/commit.
2021-04-12T20:02:01Z nij: Shinmera: "systems do not specify versioned dependencies"... really?!
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2021-04-12T20:02:05Z Shinmera: yes.
2021-04-12T20:02:11Z nij: Uh oh..
2021-04-12T20:02:22Z Shinmera: ASDF cannot deal with knowing multiple versions of the same system at once. It'll only accept one.
2021-04-12T20:02:22Z waleee-cl: nij:  if you put it in ~/common-lisp or the appropriate subdir of ~/quicklisp it will be preferred
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2021-04-12T20:02:39Z waleee-cl: (before the version in quicklisp)
2021-04-12T20:02:42Z Shinmera: So you'll have to either manage the system registry manually, or replace ASDF wholesale.
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2021-04-12T20:04:00Z Shinmera: I want to do the latter at some point and have some fun ideas for it, but am wholly lacking in time lately.
2021-04-12T20:04:01Z nij: waleee-cl: yeah.. but that doesn't feel functional and declarative :-(
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2021-04-12T20:04:57Z waleee-cl: there's https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/clpm/clpm but that still uses quicklisp atm
2021-04-12T20:05:26Z waleee-cl: also not declerative since you need to run a separate binary
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2021-04-12T20:05:41Z nij: What if A1 and A2 depend on A, and suddenly A has a new version.
2021-04-12T20:05:53Z nij: Say A1 follows and depends on the new A, but A2 does not..
2021-04-12T20:06:10Z waleee-cl: go for guix then?
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2021-04-12T20:06:57Z nij: Tried (trying..). It's very hard.
2021-04-12T20:07:18Z Shinmera: nij: then either it breaks at compile time and quicklisp won't release a new dist until it's fixed, or it breaks at runtime and users will complain until it's fixed.
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2021-04-12T20:07:38Z Shinmera: usually the former.
2021-04-12T20:09:10Z nij: Wow. So suppose A is what many things depend on.. say Alexandria, and say one day A upgrades.
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2021-04-12T20:09:29Z nij: If one single system doesn't upgrade accordingly, quicklisp won't accept the newer Alexandria?
2021-04-12T20:09:44Z Shinmera: no, quicklisp won't do a release at all.
2021-04-12T20:09:56Z nij: :-O !!!
2021-04-12T20:10:02Z nij: This is so wrong. (sorry if it's offending..)
2021-04-12T20:10:11Z Shinmera: that's just like, your opinion, man.
2021-04-12T20:10:16Z gabc: nij: well it fixes the dependency problem
2021-04-12T20:10:37Z nij: yeah it's just my opinion..
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2021-04-12T20:11:20Z Lycurgus: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/clpm/clpm Supports HTTPS, what is that saying about ql ?
2021-04-12T20:11:51Z Shinmera: ql doesn't depend on anything, but clpm depends on a lot of things.
2021-04-12T20:11:57Z Shinmera: ql has a much harder target than clpm.
2021-04-12T20:12:19Z Lycurgus: so it's sayin it can depend?
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2021-04-12T20:12:32Z nij: Well.. I guess all sorts of package managers suffer from the same issues - except things like nix or guix.
2021-04-12T20:13:05Z nij: So this model has been working for years. I shouldn't say it's so wrong then :-( My apology.
2021-04-12T20:13:15Z Lycurgus: (where ql don't)
2021-04-12T20:13:35Z Shinmera: nij: It's not great, but it's the best Xach can do with the ecosystem we have (particularly ASDF)
2021-04-12T20:14:20Z Bike: multiple versions of the same library can't really exist in the same image, anyway
2021-04-12T20:14:34Z Shinmera: yes but the build system can select the best version to actually load.
2021-04-12T20:14:36Z Bike: i guess if they wanted to they could do things with packages
2021-04-12T20:14:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: I also like that this model encourages people to not make breaking changes :)
2021-04-12T20:14:57Z Shinmera: that would already go a long way to remedying this mess.
2021-04-12T20:15:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: My personal policy is to fork and rename rather than push a breaking version
2021-04-12T20:15:29Z Shinmera: phoe: ping about your verbose issue
2021-04-12T20:15:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: And, I think Rich Hickey's critique of semver is really on the mark here
2021-04-12T20:15:48Z Shinmera: semver does suck.
2021-04-12T20:15:51Z nij: fiddlerwoaroof: what's his critique about?
2021-04-12T20:15:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: In the JS world, there's so much useless time spent fixing breaking version changes
2021-04-12T20:16:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: Very few breaking changes are actually worth it, if you account for the cost to your users
2021-04-12T20:16:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: Especially for libraries
2021-04-12T20:16:25Z nij: Why not using guix/nix then?
2021-04-12T20:16:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: Because those don't actually solve the problem
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2021-04-12T20:16:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: When I pin a guix/nix version, I'm opting out of bug-fixes and security fixes
2021-04-12T20:17:30Z nij: Well.. you can pin an interval of versions..
2021-04-12T20:17:56Z nij: And in the classical model as well.. say in the case of ql, if no releases is given, bug/security fixes are out of reach too.
2021-04-12T20:18:23Z nij: ;; interval of versions ==> I retract! I'm not actually sure about this.
2021-04-12T20:19:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: What I mean is just that, if library authors rename rather than introduce breaking changes, updating libraries becomes relatively safe
2021-04-12T20:19:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: And breaking changes become reportable bugs
2021-04-12T20:20:33Z Shinmera: This assumes that packages are actually self-contained and don't have changes that influence other parts
2021-04-12T20:20:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: What do you mean by "packages"?
2021-04-12T20:21:02Z mfiano: oh the whole accretion vs concretion talk?
2021-04-12T20:21:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think this is the spec talk
2021-04-12T20:21:15Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: lisp packages?
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2021-04-12T20:21:38Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: a system can affect other parts than the packages it declares and modifies though.
2021-04-12T20:21:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: Cool, yeah: two systems modifying the same Lisp package seems like a bad practice
2021-04-12T20:22:17Z mfiano: Depends what you mean by modify.
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2021-04-12T20:22:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, actually implementing this completely ranges from difficult to impossible, but I think it's useful to approach distributing libraries with this mindset
2021-04-12T20:23:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think Rich Hickey's ideal world involves something like a spec/test registry inside your library manager (QL, or such) that rejects updates that cause existing tests/specs to fail
2021-04-12T20:24:09Z Shinmera: mfiano: for instance systems can offer generic functions to extend, or hook lists that another system might latch on to. Just making two packages won't resolve the conflict, then.
2021-04-12T20:24:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, quicklisp would refuse to update a package unless all the pre-existing tests past, as well as any newly added tests
2021-04-12T20:24:40Z Shinmera: Anyway, the point being that it's not always that easy to allow multiple versions at once.
2021-04-12T20:25:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: I sort of think of the goal is to make the idea of "versioning" obsolete
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2021-04-12T20:25:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: Every change to the code of an existing symbol is backwards compatible and backwards incompatible changes force a rename
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2021-04-12T20:26:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: mfiano: thinking about it, the talk also talks a lot about accretion
2021-04-12T20:26:31Z nij: which talk?
2021-04-12T20:27:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: There's a summary and link here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19076444
2021-04-12T20:27:16Z mfiano: yes, hickey's stance on semver talked a lot about "accretion" and "concretion"
2021-04-12T20:27:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: "any breaking change (i.e. a major version bump in semver) might as well be considered another product/package/lib and should better choose another name instead of pretending to be the same thing with a bumped number."
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2021-04-12T20:27:29Z mfiano: I don't agree with a lot of it, but he makes _some_ good points
2021-04-12T20:28:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: Whether or not this is practical, it's extremely appealing for someone who's dayjob is all JS/React stuff
2021-04-12T20:29:15Z Odin-: Practical is usually the first thing out the door when computer ideas evolve.
2021-04-12T20:29:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: Also, I think people who force themselves to always keep their dependencies up to date find themselves rejecting libraries that exhibit a pattern of breaking changes
2021-04-12T20:29:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: I know I do
2021-04-12T20:30:04Z mfiano: My solution it the Lisp curse. I rarely find libraries that are production ready/suitable for my needs, so I write my own :x
2021-04-12T20:30:16Z mfiano: is8
2021-04-12T20:30:19Z mfiano: is*
2021-04-12T20:30:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: mfiano: I generally try to fork and PR
2021-04-12T20:30:26Z no-defun-allowed: Well spooked my prototypes
2021-04-12T20:30:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: or just fork
2021-04-12T20:30:53Z nij: mfiano: respect
2021-04-12T20:31:06Z mfiano: Not good at understanding someone else's thought processes with heravy macros and protocols that I would have never designed.
2021-04-12T20:31:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, the Lisp curse isn't really a lisp-only thing
2021-04-12T20:31:30Z mfiano: Lisp is tyoo flexible in that it has a larger burden for onboarding new collaborators due to that
2021-04-12T20:31:32Z nij: mfiano: how do you do versioning of your own code?
2021-04-12T20:32:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: A lot of people I've worked with are really unwilling to take a dependency because of the ongoing maintenance cost the dependency's lifecycle imposes
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2021-04-12T20:32:30Z tom-bsd: Hey guys. I'm on FreeBSD trying to install some quicklisp libraries with SBCL and it gives me errors like `Can't create directory /usr/local/lib/common-lisp/alexandria/sbclfasl/`. It's probably a permissions problem but isn't there a way to install these libraries to my home?
2021-04-12T20:32:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: mfiano: yeah, although I tend to find that just forcing myself to fix the problem I find in a library really helps
2021-04-12T20:32:42Z mfiano: For my own stuff, I  haven't ever got to what the script iddies call 0.1.0
2021-04-12T20:32:50Z mfiano: So i odn't have any users
2021-04-12T20:33:15Z Odin-: The "every tiny task a dependency" mentality is quite recent, too.
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2021-04-12T20:33:56Z Odin-: So its absence can't really be a Lisp-specific thing.
2021-04-12T20:34:10Z Odin-: At the very least it should effect Fortran, too. :p
2021-04-12T20:34:42Z mfiano: My software is always pre-0.1.x, use at your own risk. Mostly because gamedev and support libraries are hard.
2021-04-12T20:34:54Z Odin-: tom-bsd: I thought the default way of install Quicklisp did that...
2021-04-12T20:35:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: As far as I can tell, "NIH syndrome" cuts both ways
2021-04-12T20:35:32Z mfiano: I recently moved them to my own private host and stoped releasing to QL
2021-04-12T20:35:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's a choice between an ongoing maintenance cost for in-house tools, or an ongoing maintenance cost whenever some random person decides to update the tool
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2021-04-12T20:36:34Z nij: mfiano: ?! How about the old versions?
2021-04-12T20:36:46Z nij: What if some systems depend on your codes?
2021-04-12T20:36:58Z mfiano: What is released is still pulled by Xach each month
2021-04-12T20:39:06Z tom-bsd: Odin-: quicklisp is installed locally but loading libraries complains about making the aforementioned folder
2021-04-12T20:39:11Z no-defun-allowed: Imagine complaining about flexibility and being able to do things yourself, this meme made by "who the fuck actually believes in the Lisp 'curse' lmao" gang
2021-04-12T20:39:16Z mfiano: That was requersted by Xach and phoe iirc. I don't mind I guess, but I'm not interesting in developing for others. My code is  MIT and anyone can use/fork do whatever, and I don't have to "fix" it for their strange use cases
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2021-04-12T20:40:01Z no-defun-allowed: Man, your head is haunted, you have bats in your belfry!
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2021-04-12T20:41:41Z nij: mfiano: can i still see your code online?
2021-04-12T20:41:43Z mfiano: I liked it best when I wrote code before code on the internet was a thing. Nobody likes my code, but I do, so problem solved.
2021-04-12T20:41:53Z Odin-: no-defun-allowed: That reads like something Max Stirner would have written.
2021-04-12T20:42:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: The lisp curse thing is Mark Tarver, right?
2021-04-12T20:42:20Z no-defun-allowed: Odin-: Nope, never heard of this Max Stirner :)
2021-04-12T20:42:29Z no-defun-allowed: fiddlerwoaroof: W*nestock
2021-04-12T20:42:31Z nij: mfiano: do you work in tech? How do you stick with just cl?
2021-04-12T20:42:44Z mfiano: nij: yes, git.mfiano.net
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2021-04-12T20:43:14Z Odin-: no-defun-allowed: I'll just put it down to endless spooks, then.
2021-04-12T20:43:18Z mfiano: yes usually CL, though not currently, but i heard a clojure contract is coming my way soon.
2021-04-12T20:43:46Z no-defun-allowed: Odin-: Duped egoists? In _my_ #lisp? It's more likely than you think.
2021-04-12T20:44:22Z Odin-: Ah, so it _was_ sarcasm. I'll need to recalibrate my meter, then.
2021-04-12T20:44:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: no
2021-04-12T20:44:46Z mfiano: Maybe one day when I actually make something usable, complete with offline documentation, manuals, books, etc, I'll publicize my stuff.
2021-04-12T20:44:46Z no-defun-allowed hoped the :) gave it away
2021-04-12T20:44:46Z moon-child: I don't think the 'lisp curse' thing is _incorrect_, strictly, it just reflects a perversion of sensibilities and morals
2021-04-12T20:44:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: no-defun-allowed: but it was based on "The Bipolar Lisp Programmer" by Tarver
2021-04-12T20:44:54Z mfiano: But I am pretty far from that
2021-04-12T20:45:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: My read on Tarver is that he bought into stuff thinking that it would mean he would get free work on Qi/Shen and then got really annoyed to discover that using the GPL didn't mean that people would be interested in his project
2021-04-12T20:46:09Z nij: :golden-utils <3
2021-04-12T20:46:32Z no-defun-allowed: My own (actual) argument is that for any progress to be made any time soon, you do in fact need to produce half-assed prototypes, and only from there is it reasonable to start talking about a common design based on what information you have.
2021-04-12T20:46:35Z mfiano: Rich Hickey did make one point that has always stuck with me. Most programmers, and especially Lispers, are too focused on code, and not the artifact. Does the code matter if it doesn't provide something innovative or to fill a niche in computing?
2021-04-12T20:46:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think this also is behind the whole Lisp Curse thing:.
2021-04-12T20:47:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't find that sort of point all that interesting
2021-04-12T20:47:19Z nij: mfiano: besides of your :golden-utils, do you use other utils often?
2021-04-12T20:47:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: 90% of the code I write I write because it solves a problem I or the company I work for has
2021-04-12T20:47:52Z mfiano: nij: Just that, which includes alexandria re-exported
2021-04-12T20:48:15Z no-defun-allowed: So the faster I can crank those out the better. But it's also falsely applied when two projects have similar but incompatible design goals, which annoys me further.
2021-04-12T20:48:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think treating "filling a niche in computing" this way has a tendency to create projects that never actually finish
2021-04-12T20:49:05Z nij: mfiano: since 2008? Holly's cow!
2021-04-12T20:49:32Z nij: mfiano: what if alexandria upgrades itself one day?
2021-04-12T20:49:41Z no-defun-allowed: For example, one very clever HN poster complained people made too many array processing libraries. To pick two arbitrarily: one uses lazy arrays which you must manually force computation of. One is feature-compatible with numpy. The latter precludes the former, so it is nonsense to say they are redundant.
2021-04-12T20:50:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: nij: alexandria is probably the last library to do that
2021-04-12T20:50:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: It also has a versioned package scheme
2021-04-12T20:50:17Z Odin-: no-defun-allowed: "There is more than one programming language! How wasteful!"
2021-04-12T20:50:18Z nij: fiddlerwoaroof: why?
2021-04-12T20:50:26Z nij: I mean "the last"..
2021-04-12T20:50:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: Because the developers of alexandria are really picky about the code they accept
2021-04-12T20:51:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: The breaking changes, afaict, are all in ALEXANDRIA-2
2021-04-12T20:51:30Z mfiano: fiddlerwoaroof: I am perfectly fine with that. I program to learn, not to create. But I'm not focused on designing new macrology usecases, MOP, or other meta-programming. My current project is roughly 40kloc, and all my brain power is whiteboarding and cranking out code I need for the artifact, not how I can bend the language with more yaks
2021-04-12T20:51:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: :)
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2021-04-12T20:52:26Z mfiano: I would be doing it in any other language if some dude 20 years ago didn't rip Python out of my hands to show me that CL was better at RAD
2021-04-12T20:52:55Z no-defun-allowed: And I think that to make a library which supports both, you would need people aware of compiling either. But if APL implementations weren't doing lazy computation behind the back, or we picked something completely new, I doubt the magical utopia where everyone does one library per concept would have ever discovered that it might be useful.
2021-04-12T20:53:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I've never understood the desire to have _a_ array programming library
2021-04-12T20:53:34Z no-defun-allowed: Odin-: That continues to the "wheels in the head" point, so on and so forth.
2021-04-12T20:53:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: or _the one true_ web server
2021-04-12T20:53:41Z mfiano: alexandria, picky?
2021-04-12T20:53:48Z mfiano: I submitted some code to that project
2021-04-12T20:53:54Z mfiano: Haven't had an isuee
2021-04-12T20:54:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm just going by the README: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/alexandria/alexandria
2021-04-12T20:54:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: "picky" is probably the wrong word, too negative
2021-04-12T20:55:10Z mfiano: One of the last changes I made was quite a few years ago, admittedly
2021-04-12T20:55:24Z no-defun-allowed: (Then for the actually hard stuff, e.g. compiling pattern matching, you still have few people attempt to do it well, and so there is still approximately 1 pattern matcher used in CL. I'm just remembering what I wrote in the book.)
2021-04-12T20:55:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: The developers of alexandria seem generally committed to a no-backwards-incompatible changes philosophy
2021-04-12T20:55:47Z mfiano: It was rewriting LERP to use the numerically stable method (at the cost of an extra multiply, which smart compilers could fuse it, so the precision is well worth it)
2021-04-12T20:55:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: no-defun-allowed: yeah, trivia
2021-04-12T20:56:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've always had mixed feelings about it
2021-04-12T20:57:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: Pattern matching, like CASE and friends, is a static dispatch technique, and I generally try to use dynamic-dispatch wherever possible :)
2021-04-12T20:58:13Z Odin-: no-defun-allowed: I'm just always a little interested in how people seem to simultaneously consider software development to follow completely different rules from other productive activity and expect it to function exactly the same.
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2021-04-12T20:58:52Z no-defun-allowed: Sure, I am not making a comment on pattern matching though, but there are a few methods to compile it, and they require some effort to make. You can make the language bend as much as you want, but the algorithm has to get in there somehow.
2021-04-12T20:58:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: This might be a sign that I learned to program from 90s books about OOP, but I have an aversion to conditionals that can't be extended without modifying the code
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2021-04-12T20:59:03Z mfiano: eric normand gave a good talk last week about the wrong direction software development is taking, and i have agreed with that for a good 10 years
2021-04-12T20:59:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah
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2021-04-12T21:00:18Z no-defun-allowed: Odin-: Absolutely.
2021-04-12T21:00:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: mfiano: one really clarifying thing for me about Lisps/FP/etc. was listening to the episode of Cognitect's podcast featuring Matthew Flatt (of Racket fame)
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2021-04-12T21:01:34Z mfiano: I am not familiar with it, but given the number of talks I've seen on FP and the like, and my short-term meory, that isn't surprising
2021-04-12T21:01:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: At one point the host just sort of asserted the Clojure dogma `data > functions > macros` and Matthew Flatt responded, "actually I think functions > macros > data"
2021-04-12T21:02:26Z mood_ is now known as mood
2021-04-12T21:02:27Z mfiano: I don't see the correlation
2021-04-12T21:03:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: Clojurians like to say "try to solve a problem by representing it with data, then use functions if that doesn't work and finally use macros"
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2021-04-12T21:03:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've come to think that one should almost always prefer functions and macros to data representations (especially raw data literals in code)
2021-04-12T21:04:11Z mfiano: I tend to write functions always, with the ocassional macro function.
2021-04-12T21:04:11Z no-defun-allowed: I found this excellent rule engine called EVAL, you should totally use it with...data yes that's data
2021-04-12T21:04:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: My experience is that a codebase built around domain-specific abstractions ends up being much more maintainable long-run, than a code base built around data
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2021-04-12T21:05:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: Because when you need to make an architecture change, you don't have to spend as much time tracking down data dependencies, you just re-implement the abstractions
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2021-04-12T21:06:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, I've come to realize that Clojure just isn't designed for me
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2021-04-12T21:06:29Z mfiano: Maintainable code comes from understanding the domain. How you use the constructs available matters less.
2021-04-12T21:06:48Z mfiano: and this is the point Normand was trying to hit last week
2021-04-12T21:07:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't think that's really true: your understanding of the domain should be reflected in the language you build to write your software
2021-04-12T21:07:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: Domain knowledge should, almost always, be reified into the constructs of your programming language so you can program in the language of your domain
2021-04-12T21:08:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: Not following this principle creates huge messes for the people that maintain the code
2021-04-12T21:09:21Z Odin-: No Turing tarpits for you, then?
2021-04-12T21:09:21Z no-defun-allowed: Something rubs me the wrong way about using maps and sequences for everything. Maybe I don't do the kinds of problems where those are fine.
2021-04-12T21:09:52Z mfiano: The point is general purpose abstractions, like design patterns as they are called in other languages, are just usually the result of one caring too much about the code and not how it should be structured for your domain. Maintainability just sort of falls out from a deep understanding of your field/and lots of whiteboarding.
2021-04-12T21:10:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: The biggest issue is you create an implicit dependency between line 40 with {:a 1 :b 2} and line 80 with {:a 1 :b 2}
2021-04-12T21:10:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: Then you refactor line 40 and nothing tells you line 80 is broken
2021-04-12T21:10:21Z no-defun-allowed: (Though for it to be "everything", we should define #{} to be 0, #{#{}} to be 1, so on and so forth.)
2021-04-12T21:11:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: mfiano: I agree with that, I just think saying "how you use the concepts available matters less" misses the point: understanding the domain is not enough, you need to write code that reflects your understanding of the domain
2021-04-12T21:11:46Z mfiano: There are whole periods of weeks where I can't write code because I'm still understanding the math, logic and how it all permutes to be written in a maintainable fastion. POD, mixins, design patterns...none of that matters until the domain is well  understood
2021-04-12T21:12:10Z Odin-: What's POD short for in this context?
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2021-04-12T21:12:21Z mfiano: plain old data
2021-04-12T21:12:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I'm sort of the opposite: I can't understand the domain without having a repl open to mess around with
2021-04-12T21:12:38Z Odin-: Ah.
2021-04-12T21:12:40Z Odin-: That old myth.
2021-04-12T21:12:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: I learn the domain by writing code in it
2021-04-12T21:13:41Z mfiano: I've had to work on serious projects professionally where we couldn't afford to make these types of mistakes that arise from "just coding"
2021-04-12T21:13:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: Most of the code doesn't actually make it to production
2021-04-12T21:13:59Z mfiano: Software development to me has always been moreso about thinking than coding.
2021-04-12T21:14:01Z Odin-: There are still people who think there's really something called "plain text" in computers.
2021-04-12T21:15:01Z Odin-: And that processors actually work with numbers. (Shocking, right?)
2021-04-12T21:15:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's just that I find iterating with prototypes designed to explore one corner of the search space ends up being more efficient than trying to think through the domain
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2021-04-12T21:16:25Z TMA: I have an experience that is in the middle between fiddlerwoaroof and mfiano. there is the exploration to learn something of the domain, which is usually ill specified and therefore not available with a priori reasoning alone
2021-04-12T21:17:14Z TMA: but there is also the need to pause and whiteboard, to build the model in the head prior to coding
2021-04-12T21:17:31Z mfiano: I'm also old and jadad, so can probably ignore my opinions :)
2021-04-12T21:17:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: TMA: yeah, when talking about these things I find that I occasionally express a position that sounds more extreme than it actually is
2021-04-12T21:18:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: I do spend time whiteboarding/learning, I just have also had the experience of a project where we spent weeks planning only to discover that what we thought was possible wasn't
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2021-04-12T21:18:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: Within like 30 minutes of attempting to execute
2021-04-12T21:19:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: Or, in one case, a team insisting on like a month of onboarding training before I was allowed to write code
2021-04-12T21:19:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: Most of which was basically useless because I didn't really understand the context until I tried to change the code
2021-04-12T21:20:50Z mfiano: I could write a whole book on debunking the ECS paradigm some time...and I probably will. It amazes me how people flock to shiny things that just shift the shift the complexity around (and add new issues because they hadn't considering their design may require a new architectural model coupled to the domain.
2021-04-12T21:21:06Z mfiano: )
2021-04-12T21:21:50Z TMA: mfiano: I will refrain from ignoring your opinions, if I may. There is certainly much to be learned, even if there are minor corrections to be applied.
2021-04-12T21:22:09Z no-defun-allowed: I still need to write my implementation of "ECS" using CLOS for serial parts just to spite someone. But I forgot who I'm supposed to be spiting.
2021-04-12T21:22:38Z mfiano: EC couples with CLOS better than ECS
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2021-04-12T21:22:54Z Shinmera wonders if he could find a way to use no-defun-allowed's time for his own projects by coercing her into spiting him for something
2021-04-12T21:23:33Z mfiano: A true ECS is impossible anyway, so can only go so far before you have stateful code
2021-04-12T21:24:21Z no-defun-allowed: Sorry, I have a waiting list of about three months, if you wouldn't mind writing your name and project down here then I'll get back to you then
2021-04-12T21:24:51Z mfiano: what are you working on no-defun-allowed ?
2021-04-12T21:25:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: no-defun-allowed: it sounds to me like you're just saying we have to make you angry enough
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2021-04-12T21:26:43Z nij: If I get a cl system from guix, how do I load it? QL:QUICKLOAD doesn't look at those paths by default after all.
2021-04-12T21:27:15Z no-defun-allowed: mfiano: Right now, I just finished the first part of redoing my regular expression compiler, which was to use (and debug) someone else's technique for submatching with a DFA. Next is to add a protocol for letting the client provide optimisations (e.g. optimising constant string searching). Then I have to look after two lock-free hash table implementations.
2021-04-12T21:27:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: nij: you have to figure out how guix expects you to configure ASDF's registry
2021-04-12T21:27:36Z mfiano: no-defun-allowed: Did I not see a post a couple weeks ago stating you were not contributing to open source anymore or something of the sort?
2021-04-12T21:28:21Z no-defun-allowed: I announced I am taking a break from Netfarm because, wow, I'm actually too fed up with people there to bother improving their lives in any meaningful way. But now I also have a paper on that to edit.
2021-04-12T21:28:41Z mfiano: Is people of Netfarm, CL people?
2021-04-12T21:28:43Z no-defun-allowed: mfiano: Yes, now I've decided to work on other things because otherwise I have too much spare time :)
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2021-04-12T21:29:06Z no-defun-allowed: No, not CL people. The reasons why are off-topic for #lisp.
2021-04-12T21:29:06Z mfiano: The only mention I ever heard of it is from you, so I'm curious who these people are that annoyed you. Getting the torches ready
2021-04-12T21:30:26Z mfiano: Ok then. Well one thing I know all too well is breaks are good. I would never be able to commit to one project and stay sane.
2021-04-12T21:32:02Z mfiano: Mostly because I have to figure out hard problems on my own that require subconscious thinking
2021-04-12T21:32:20Z mfiano: If anyone wants to join me to polish up my game engine, I wouldn't mind
2021-04-12T21:32:34Z nij: fiddlerwoaroof: I guess I should ask #guix then.
2021-04-12T21:34:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: yeah, my guess is that reading guix expressions for something like nyxt might be helpful too
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2021-04-12T21:34:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: my guess is that it involves `guix environment` but, unfortunately, I can't use guix because of their stance on mac support/free software
2021-04-12T21:35:38Z no-defun-allowed: In short, despite many differences of opinion on design, only one CL person has come close to saying that all my work is worthless.
2021-04-12T21:35:59Z nij: fiddlerwoaroof: thanks :)
2021-04-12T21:36:43Z mfiano: no-defun-allowed: all your work was worthless? i see a logic flaw already
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2021-04-12T21:47:55Z Shinmera: no-defun-allowed: I've had people almost word for word say all my libraries are worthless. The good thing is that doesn't actually matter.
2021-04-12T21:49:28Z no-defun-allowed: Shinmera: That was a slight simplification, they said any free software was worthless. Normally I'd be laughing, but no one there disagreed there. On the other hand, they could have been laughing internally as well.
2021-04-12T21:50:27Z mfiano: All my work is worthless, in the fact that it isn't usable by others, is broken until I finish it, and is unknown by others...but I still think it is very _worthwhile_ to work on given my goals of bettering myself and the hopeful one day it will at the very least be usable to me (and others would be a bonus)
2021-04-12T21:51:41Z no-defun-allowed: Pretty sure there is no network stack (and/or operating system) without any open-source components, including proprietary ones, so I wonder how they didn't contradict themself by being able to write that.
2021-04-12T21:53:06Z no-defun-allowed: What I read was straight slander, and there's no point discussing that in itself, but that it was taken remotely seriously is telling.
2021-04-12T21:55:00Z Shinmera: Yeah, unfortunately even obviously off crazy talk can still really get to ya.
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2021-04-12T21:58:15Z no-defun-allowed: My thought process went something like "Here's my audience I suppose, if anyone would immediately be interested in e.g collaborative filtering for moderation it'd be them, and they're now saying no open-source program has done anything good for society. And half my time these days is spent cleaning up code and writing documentation. How kind of you!"
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2021-04-12T22:29:26Z dim: fatal error encountered in SBCL pid 26098 pthread 0x7000003c0000: SIGABRT received.
2021-04-12T22:30:06Z phoe: dim: which SBCL version?
2021-04-12T22:30:18Z dim: that seems to happen a lot with SBCL 2.1.3, here loading list-of
2021-04-12T22:30:28Z phoe: huh, I remember an issue with SIGABRT mentioned somewhere in #sbcl
2021-04-12T22:30:29Z dim: it seems that CCL also just got a sigabort
2021-04-12T22:30:42Z phoe: oh? now that's interesting
2021-04-12T22:31:29Z dim: ccl64 -e '(ql:quickload "pgloader")' to reproduce
2021-04-12T22:31:51Z dim: I just cleaned my cache, too, so that might be related (in that it's trying to compile something?)
2021-04-12T22:32:07Z dim: I have CCL 1.12 for information
2021-04-12T22:32:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: This sounds like an FFI issue
2021-04-12T22:32:59Z dim: anyway I wanted to hack in CL and/or pgloader this vacations, but I guess I'll do something else instead :/
2021-04-12T22:33:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't have that problem in 2.1.0
2021-04-12T22:34:18Z scymtym: SIGABRT is often from uncaught exceptions in C++ code
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2021-04-12T22:36:21Z dim: can I install sbcl 2.1.0 with brew easily?
2021-04-12T22:36:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: dim: I'm not sure, I'm using nix
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2021-04-12T22:37:33Z dim: yeah doesn't look like it
2021-04-12T22:38:33Z dim: time to see if ECL can load pgloader these days
2021-04-12T22:39:06Z phoe: dim: actually it does seem so?
2021-04-12T22:39:13Z phoe: brew install sbcl@2.1.0
2021-04-12T22:39:27Z phoe: and/or brew switch sbcl 2.1.0
2021-04-12T22:39:41Z dim: Error: No available formula or cask with the name "sbcl@2.1.0".
2021-04-12T22:39:49Z dim: yeah that's when you have it already locally perhaps
2021-04-12T22:39:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: dim: what are you using? I'm on an x86-64 MBP, my M1 sees a lot more SIGABRTs with sbcl
2021-04-12T22:40:13Z dim: it's still an x64 and Catalina here, didn't make the jump to BigSur yet
2021-04-12T22:40:15Z phoe: huh, seems like you'd need to use an old formula or something... bleh
2021-04-12T22:40:18Z dim: I'm not sure I want to ;-)
2021-04-12T22:40:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: Big Sur is, in my experience, much better than Catalina
2021-04-12T22:41:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: I sort of skipped over Mojave and Catalina
2021-04-12T22:41:18Z dim: yeah except if you use/develop anything that doesn't know how to process EINTR when doing open(2), like Postgres and most of the source code I work with
2021-04-12T22:41:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: I see
2021-04-12T22:41:50Z dim: and except if you have hardware that doesn't support BigSur yet, too (I'm still waiting for drivers updates for an audio interface)
2021-04-12T22:42:02Z dim: but anyway, ECL is compiling, slowly, but making progress
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2021-04-12T22:47:03Z dim: Condition of type: SIMPLE-ERROR ; Unable to create pipe C ; library explanation: Too many open files.
2021-04-12T22:47:15Z dim: okay I'm done with hacking in CL for a while
2021-04-12T22:47:30Z dim: I had a nice shot tonight, won't happen again anytime soon if I must first fix all those things
2021-04-12T22:47:55Z dim: gn friends, and thanks for all the help you could provide, much appreciated as always!
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2021-04-13T03:01:45Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-04-13T03:19:31Z nij: [crossed-post from #guix] Any guixers :)? Is there any idea how to use quicklisp on a guix system? NixOS seems to have a work-around.. but I haven't found any for guix - https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/blob/master/pkgs/development/lisp-modules/quicklisp.sh
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2021-04-13T03:32:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: morning, beach!
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2021-04-13T07:14:14Z rain3: hi  is the source for this available anywhere ? https://common-lisp.net/project/erlang-in-lisp/
2021-04-13T07:16:10Z rain3: ok I think I found it git clone http://common-lisp.net/project/erlang-in-lisp/git/
2021-04-13T07:16:16Z lukego: nij: I'm not a Guix'er but I use ql2nix and that works well for me jfyi
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2021-04-13T07:38:38Z varjag: is there special wisdom in intercepting socket-errors in postmodern's with-connection instead of letting the application handle it?
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2021-04-13T09:30:58Z dim: hi! how can I find out which of my ASDF dependencies or their dependencies require a given system, here CFFI (or actually abcl-cffi)?
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2021-04-13T09:40:00Z dim: (let ((pgloader-deps (mapcar #'ql-dist:system-file-name
2021-04-13T09:40:00Z dim:                                       (flatten
2021-04-13T09:40:00Z dim:                                        (ql-dist:dependency-tree "pgloader"))))
2021-04-13T09:40:00Z dim:                (depends-on-cffi (ql:who-depends-on 'cffi)))
2021-04-13T09:40:01Z dim:            (intersection pgloader-deps depends-on-cffi :test #'string-equal))
2021-04-13T09:40:04Z dim: sorry for multi-line posting
2021-04-13T09:40:13Z dim: I guess I was too happy to be able to do it ;-)
2021-04-13T09:40:50Z flip214: dim: you already use ql-dist:dependency-tree
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2021-04-13T10:08:51Z dim: yeah, it still is a game of whack-a-mole and I'm not there yet
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2021-04-13T10:18:31Z dim: okay, and now it fails for yet another reason
2021-04-13T10:18:45Z dim: no CL during vacations for me it seems :/
2021-04-13T10:19:01Z dim: for the very curious: Error while trying to load definition for system jna from pathname jar:file:///usr/local/Cellar/abcl/1.8.0/libexec/abcl-contrib.jar!/mvn/jna.asd:
2021-04-13T10:19:11Z dim: that's during Retry loading FASL for #<ASDF/LISP-ACTION:CL-SOURCE-FILE "cl-containers/with-utilities" "dev" "utilities-integration">.
2021-04-13T10:20:44Z dim: (and the previous offender that required CFFI was cl+ssl, which is needed for pgloader by direct dependencies qmynd, drakma, sqlite, mssql, and quri)
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2021-04-13T10:49:30Z nij: fiddlerwoaroof: I watched the talk you mentioned yesterday. Thanks :)
2021-04-13T10:50:06Z nij: And I understand why guix/nix doesn't "really" solve the problem.
2021-04-13T10:52:50Z nij: I wonder if in guix we can make a software depends on multiple versions of a dependency, and call each function with name and the version they belong to.
2021-04-13T10:52:54Z Xach: dim: sometimes cffi is in defsystem-depends-on which complicates things a little
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2021-04-13T11:10:53Z dim: Xach: I managed to get a list of systems to avoid in :depends-on (using #-abcl) so that I could load pgloader in there, so that's good
2021-04-13T11:11:27Z dim: not good enough to load pgloader, though, so, no there yet, and running out of patience and time... gonna play with the kids instead
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2021-04-13T13:29:26Z nij: Hi :) Can I fetch my github cl system from ql:quickload? Or I have to `git clone` it manually to my ~/quicklisp?
2021-04-13T13:30:52Z Xach: nij: you must run git clone manually.
2021-04-13T13:31:10Z Xach: or, you could do it automatically, if you write the code to automate it!
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2021-04-13T13:47:08Z phoe: nij: I think roswell automates that
2021-04-13T13:47:20Z phoe: or you could use e.g. (ql:quickload :legit) to write a function that does that for you
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2021-04-13T14:36:52Z jmercouris: nij: or you could add your system to ultra lisp and then add the ultra lisp dist to your QL
2021-04-13T14:36:59Z jmercouris: Or you could use clpm
2021-04-13T14:37:08Z jmercouris: Or you could use qlot
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2021-04-13T15:10:39Z jcowan: beach: I worked out an answer to `read` allocating multiple empty strings.  Stash the reader macro for " and replace it with one that peeks to see if the next character is also quote.  If so, read the quote and return a unique empty string; if not, call the stashed macro.  The only thing this breaks is if you try to use eq(l) on an empty string.
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2021-04-13T15:12:55Z beach: That's an interesting solution.
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2021-04-13T15:24:24Z nij: clpm could accidentally eat my files xD
2021-04-13T15:24:32Z nij: lemme take a look at roswell
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2021-04-13T16:44:50Z dbotton: does anyone know of a "dictionary" or "thesaurus" for CL terms?
2021-04-13T16:45:13Z Bike: other than the clhs glossary? not that i can think of
2021-04-13T16:45:31Z dbotton: so let's say I wanted to say "member function" it would give the equivalent clos term
2021-04-13T16:45:51Z dbotton: ok
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2021-04-13T16:46:05Z Bike: oh, like for other kinds of jargon. yeah, i don't know anything like that. also i'm not sure there's any real equivalent to member functions?
2021-04-13T16:46:29Z dbotton: well it could give the aprox version or explain why not
2021-04-13T16:48:25Z luis: dbotton: is this close to what you're after? https://norvig.com/python-lisp.html
2021-04-13T16:48:25Z Bike: i suppose so.
2021-04-13T16:49:25Z dbotton: not really
2021-04-13T16:50:14Z dbotton: It is easy to look up method or generic function and then learn what that means in CL
2021-04-13T16:50:47Z dbotton: neither of which is the same as in most other languages with the same terms
2021-04-13T16:51:34Z dbotton: but if someone was coming from another language could explain the approximate mapping or why things are different
2021-04-13T16:52:17Z dbotton: I think would be helpful, maybe will try and work on. Would certainly help me be come more specific with my lisp terminology
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2021-04-13T16:53:18Z Bike: let's see, i suppose the main things that trip people up are CLOS, the call by value semantics, and the condition system
2021-04-13T16:53:59Z dbotton: those are main offenders yes, but when you drill down there are more more
2021-04-13T16:54:09Z dbotton: "slots"
2021-04-13T16:54:22Z Bike: ah, i suppose that is different.
2021-04-13T16:54:26Z Bike: probably packages also.
2021-04-13T16:55:05Z dbotton: also some comparisons between templates, macros, generics (ada), etc
2021-04-13T16:55:19Z dbotton: the list is fairly long
2021-04-13T16:55:40Z phoe: dbotton: you can emulate member functions with packages, in a way
2021-04-13T16:56:02Z phoe: (defclass foo:myclass ...) (defmethod foo:method1 ((myclass myclass) ...) ...) ...
2021-04-13T16:56:23Z dbotton: CL is itself the raw material of computer "language" and that lends itself to a different lingo in many ways
2021-04-13T16:56:26Z phoe: while exporting foo:myclass and foo:method1
2021-04-13T16:56:49Z phoe: but, yeah, that is not going to work very well for people who come from C++/Java/whatever single inheritance language there is
2021-04-13T16:56:52Z dbotton: of course can, that is what I mean by raw material
2021-04-13T16:57:19Z phoe: there's CLOS basics that need to be understood before becoming somewhat able with it, and the two CLOS chapters of PCL work decent with that
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2021-04-13T16:57:40Z nij: What could be wrong? I quickload a cl system (on guix), and this error shows up
2021-04-13T16:57:41Z nij: https://bpa.st/WCXQ
2021-04-13T16:58:13Z phoe: nij: ffi-types-unix.c:14:10: fatal error: lfp.h: No such file or directory
2021-04-13T16:58:14Z luis: lfp.h: No such file or directory seems pretty clear!
2021-04-13T16:58:17Z Bike: nij: you're missing libfixposix, i think?
2021-04-13T16:58:24Z phoe: iolib has a FFI dependen-- yes
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2021-04-13T16:59:21Z nij: O..k.. I need to find a way to get that header file on guix then..
2021-04-13T16:59:37Z Bike: https://guix.gnu.org/packages/libfixposix-0.4.3/
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2021-04-13T17:00:21Z nij: just curious.. how do you know that it's supposed in libfixposix?
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2021-04-13T17:00:41Z phoe: https://github.com/sionescu/iolib
2021-04-13T17:00:44Z phoe: "IOlib requires a C library named LibFixPOSIX - https://github.com/sionescu/libfixposix - and its headers in order to compile."
2021-04-13T17:00:45Z Bike: because i already knew iolib depended on libfixposix, and "lfp" is then an obvious initialism
2021-04-13T17:01:08Z nij: cool. lemme try
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2021-04-13T17:05:52Z Bike: maybe it owuld be possible for iolib to be a little clearer about it, though
2021-04-13T17:06:18Z nij: Yes, it works, and gives me another error -
2021-04-13T17:06:23Z nij: Unable to load foreign library (LIBFIXPOSIX). Error opening shared object "libfixposix.so": libfixposix.so: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory.
2021-04-13T17:06:42Z nij: I guess I'd have to teach sbcl (or cffi?) where to find the dynamical lib.
2021-04-13T17:06:56Z Bike: sbcl literally just calls dlopen
2021-04-13T17:07:12Z Bike: oh, if you just installed it you might need to call ldconfig or something
2021-04-13T17:07:36Z nij: I'm afraid it's more complicated on guix..
2021-04-13T17:08:01Z Bike: so i've heard. but what i mean is that it's the normal posix tools that are failing to work, rather than anything in lisp.
2021-04-13T17:08:06Z nij: Since the dynamic libraries aren't installed in the usual global path.
2021-04-13T17:08:16Z Bike: you could put a bypass in lisp, ofc
2021-04-13T17:08:25Z nij: bypass?
2021-04-13T17:08:56Z Bike: https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/cffi-manual.html#g_t_002aforeign_002dlibrary_002ddirectories_002a cffi lets you manually define where libraries are
2021-04-13T17:10:12Z nij: Yeah.. it's time for me to face this thread and follow it - and hopefully it will fix the problem - https://www.mail-archive.com/bug-guix@gnu.org/msg16190.html
2021-04-13T17:10:37Z nij: I just want to make sure that it's CFFI's problem before it - cuz in the error message there's no cffi.
2021-04-13T17:10:57Z Bike: yeah, cffi just calls sbcl, which just calls dlopen
2021-04-13T17:10:57Z nij: OH actually there is.. in the backtrace. OK, then I will
2021-04-13T17:11:10Z Bike: so the error message is probably originating from sbcl somewhere
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2021-04-13T18:21:27Z jasom: does SBCL have operations for efficiently calculating leading zeros or leading ones of a machine word?
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2021-04-13T18:22:53Z flip214: clhs INTEGER-LENGTH
2021-04-13T18:22:54Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_intege.htm
2021-04-13T18:22:56Z flip214: might help
2021-04-13T18:24:21Z jasom: aha, that will do
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2021-04-13T18:24:28Z flip214: sb-vm:n-fixnum-bits says 63 for me... shouldn't it be 62 significant bits?
2021-04-13T18:24:36Z jasom: will have to subtract
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2021-04-13T18:24:47Z jasom: flip214: I think there's a single bit for tagging, so nope?
2021-04-13T18:25:17Z flip214: jasom: I'd have thought 2 bits
2021-04-13T18:25:26Z flip214: clhs LOGCOUNT
2021-04-13T18:25:27Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_logcou.htm
2021-04-13T18:26:22Z flip214: sb-vm:n-machine-word-bits says 64
2021-04-13T18:26:47Z flip214: but yeah, sb-vm:n-fixnum-tag-bits is 1
2021-04-13T18:27:16Z jasom: (integer-length most-positive-fixnum) => 62, so given that there are negative fixnums, looks like 63
2021-04-13T18:27:48Z flip214: just wanted to paste that as well
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2021-04-13T18:28:14Z phoe: (integer-length most-negative-fixnum) ;=> 62 too
2021-04-13T18:28:23Z phoe: so looks like 1 bit tag, 1 bit sign, 62 bits left for digits
2021-04-13T18:28:30Z phoe: wait, no
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2021-04-13T18:28:48Z phoe: 1 bit tag, 62 bits encode the number in two's complement...
2021-04-13T18:28:55Z phoe thinks
2021-04-13T18:28:56Z Xach: it's an ancient trick to squeeze an extra bit
2021-04-13T18:29:21Z jasom: 1 bit tag, 63 bits encode the number in twos complement; (integer-length #xff) => 8, but clearly if you can go up to 255 with signed values it's 9 bits twos complement
2021-04-13T18:29:24Z flip214: phoe: no, you were right first time... 1 tag, 1 sign, 62 significant for both positive and negative
2021-04-13T18:29:40Z phoe: yes
2021-04-13T18:30:26Z flip214: the ol' compression trick - just remember where the 1 bits are, the 0 bits take care of themselves. applied recursively you end up with "1", which encompasses every possible meaning at once!
2021-04-13T18:30:36Z flip214: (and not 42, as some heretics might make you believe)
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2021-04-13T19:01:38Z splittist: "Ran 14; Passed 14; Failed 0". Yay for me.
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2021-04-13T19:04:09Z Shinmera: Heh, *exaggerated smug face* check this out: UAX-9 Total:  1'815'582 Passed: 1'815'582 (100%) Failed:         0 ( 0%)
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2021-04-13T19:05:36Z phoe: oh come on, check this out:
2021-04-13T19:05:43Z _death: for proper TDD brag you need to show that each failed first, and that the previous ones succeeded
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2021-04-13T19:07:50Z Shinmera: phoe: I'm trying, but it appears there is nothing to check out.
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2021-04-13T19:08:32Z phoe: Shinmera: hold on, it's still counting how many tests there are to run
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2021-04-13T19:09:05Z phoe: oh right, there are Heap exhausted, game over. tests to run
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2021-04-13T19:09:17Z phoe: oops
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2021-04-13T19:09:43Z Shinmera: Anyway, in case it wasn't obvious, there are 2 million tests for UAX9, but they're all auto-generated from unicod conformance data. :)
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2021-04-13T19:10:07Z Shinmera: And those in turn I'm sure are generated as well.
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2021-04-13T19:11:08Z aeth: put this in a macro and win the test war... (defun generate-tests (number-of-tests) (list* '5am:test 'lots-of-tests "Win the war of having the most tests" (loop :for i :from 0 :below number-of-tests :collect `(5am:is (= ,i ,i)))))
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2021-04-13T19:12:21Z aeth: (generate-tests 2000000) ; oops, ran out of memory in SBCL... looks like it needs to be optimized more
2021-04-13T19:12:36Z aeth: I guess I could also just increase the heap size!
2021-04-13T19:12:38Z phoe: that's kinda what I tried
2021-04-13T19:12:45Z phoe: oh! I didn't try heap size expansion
2021-04-13T19:12:51Z phoe quickly makes a 500G swap file
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2021-04-13T19:13:17Z Shinmera: the difference is that the uax tests are actually meaningful.
2021-04-13T19:13:25Z phoe: yes
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2021-04-13T19:14:02Z _death: aeth: that looks like a single (failing :) test to me
2021-04-13T19:14:05Z aeth: To be fair, there is a small chance that this will catch an implementation bug.
2021-04-13T19:15:13Z mfiano: Hey Lispers, gamedevs, and the uninitiated -- it's almost time: https://itch.io/jam/spring-lisp-game-jam-2021
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2021-04-13T19:15:50Z Shinmera: Hmm. If my current jam project wasn't aimed to be commercial I'd actually join for once.
2021-04-13T19:15:52Z Shinmera: Oh well!
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2021-04-13T19:16:48Z Josh_2: idk how to make a game so im out
2021-04-13T19:16:58Z Shinmera: you write the code
2021-04-13T19:17:01Z Shinmera: and then the thing moves
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2021-04-13T19:17:14Z contrapunctus: I've been looking into making a game for the last three days, but I'm new to both game dev and Common Lisp :\ (and not a very experienced programmer either)
2021-04-13T19:17:25Z Shinmera: sometimes the thing only moves in your mind, but it's still a game!
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2021-04-13T19:19:55Z mfiano: The point of the jam is not to make a game, oddly enough.
2021-04-13T19:22:45Z Shinmera: I made games in Fortran when I was 5, it's not hard to make /a/ game. It's hard to make a game with high production values and comparable to commercial games you might be envisioning.
2021-04-13T19:22:49Z mfiano: The idea is to practice. Even if you don't finish something, it is still desirable to submit it, as it gives you something to look back on to get a sense of your progression, and it also gives other people a base on which to work on, or ideas for their own future submissions.
2021-04-13T19:23:06Z Shinmera: Either way the point is you can make a game, just lower your expectations.
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2021-04-13T19:24:33Z Xach: I think like many endeavors it can be daunting to understand how to break down into completable individual pieces that, if you complete enough, results in a complete product/project
2021-04-13T19:24:56Z mfiano: So, you could just take an existing game, from past jams or GitHub etc, modify it, study it to learn how it works, and perhaps get a better idea of gamedev in general and some ideas you'd like to execute in the future.
2021-04-13T19:25:16Z Xach: (Which is part of the magic - when you see something and can instantly figure out how it's done, it is hard to be very delighted...)
2021-04-13T19:25:52Z mfiano: It's quite intimidating to try to make a game as a beginner in a public jam with a time limit. That is not the point at all though...the point is to learn and have fun :)
2021-04-13T19:27:59Z mfiano: Would like to see Xach try sometime :)
2021-04-13T19:28:37Z Xach: The desire to make games led to my interest in computers, but I don't enjoy games nearly as much as I used to :~(
2021-04-13T19:28:48Z mfiano: _death said he might too. I'd like to see longtime lispers that never participated try.
2021-04-13T19:29:01Z Xach: I'd like to try someday anyway though!
2021-04-13T19:29:08Z mfiano: Xach: Same here, I don't like playing games, but it is incredibly interesting to code them.
2021-04-13T19:29:21Z Shinmera: I can offer more assistance with Trial than usual this and next week if someone wants to give it a shot using it.
2021-04-13T19:29:45Z _death: mfiano: I did participate in a lisp game jam once :)
2021-04-13T19:29:53Z _death: mfiano: though I didn't see it on the lispgames wiki
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2021-04-13T19:30:03Z mfiano: _death: Oh I don't recall, just recall that you said you might this time :)
2021-04-13T19:30:06Z _death: mfiano: (ql:quickload "consix") (consix:game)
2021-04-13T19:30:13Z aeth: The games I liked the most (especially as a teenager) tended to be massive time sinks, so I just stay away from them entirely. And I don't try games that have patterns like that, especially if you have to log in daily/weekly (quite a few AAA games now), if you have things you need to constantly defend from raids (most survival games), etc.
2021-04-13T19:30:20Z aeth: I only play games that you can just jump in and jump out
2021-04-13T19:31:02Z aeth: So for me personally, it's not that I don't like games anymore, it's that I try not to like games too much anymore.
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2021-04-13T19:32:06Z _death: mfiano: also try (ql:quickload "towers") (towers:game)
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2021-04-13T19:32:22Z mfiano: _death: I see. 2010 was before my time as a host, when I was just a few years into Lisp at that point, and not sure I was doing games.
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2021-04-13T19:32:37Z _death: mfiano: but, right now I'm compiling aseprite.. so it's one step closer to participation
2021-04-13T19:32:40Z Xach: I like visual toys and interactivity, so maybe that would be my way in...
2021-04-13T19:32:52Z mfiano: Xach: go for it!
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2021-04-13T19:34:49Z mfiano: I'd just like to see more COmmon Lispers participate. Too many Lua/Fennel Lisp games :)
2021-04-13T19:35:05Z Xach: boo
2021-04-13T19:35:19Z Xach: 500 meg binary or bust
2021-04-13T19:35:21Z mfiano: I've thought about making the first of the bi-annual jams CL only, but then I don't think we'd get anyone but borodust :)
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2021-04-13T19:40:16Z Nilby: I already have 7 unfinished lisp games, and the 3 that I finished were very un-fun, so I'm not sure working on games as an anti-burnout tactic has worked.
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2021-04-13T19:44:10Z Nilby: Presumably results would be better with intrinsic motivation, rather than boredom with other things.
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2021-04-13T19:50:36Z _death: mfiano: I also have some tic-80 w/ ecl thing.. it was some years ago, but maybe someone wants to pick it up
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2021-04-13T19:52:48Z mfiano: Maybe, I have never messed with tic-80 myself
2021-04-13T19:52:56Z mfiano: Nor ecl for that matter
2021-04-13T19:53:00Z Xach: tic-80 is nice. very very short feedback loop.
2021-04-13T19:53:14Z _death: well https://github.com/death/TIC-80 is the repo
2021-04-13T19:53:30Z Bike: quick question - i was looking at tic-80 before - it's not an actual virtual machine is it? like it doesn't have a bytecode ISA or something, you can write code in whatever
2021-04-13T19:53:31Z _death: I even added paren highlighting ;)
2021-04-13T19:53:58Z mfiano: Do you have to cherry pick through 1527 commits? :)
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2021-04-13T19:54:06Z _death: Bike: from what I remember it just embedded a js/lua engine
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2021-04-13T19:54:24Z Bike: ok yeah, that's what it looked like. i think i had it in my head that it was an actual VM
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2021-04-13T19:54:40Z luis: Has anyone built a Docker container with ALL THE LISPS?
2021-04-13T19:55:58Z phoe: luis: https://common-lisp.net/project/cl-docker-images/ ?
2021-04-13T19:56:52Z _death: mfiano: I've not kept up with tic-80.. it was just when it was made public (hence only 60 commits in that repo).. it seemed pretty functional back then though
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2021-04-13T19:57:44Z luis: phoe: 5 Lisps is not all the Lisps but it's a rather nice start!
2021-04-13T20:00:13Z mfiano: All the lisps is a lot of lisps
2021-04-13T20:00:22Z mfiano: Forget TIC-80, need the TI-80 too :)
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2021-04-13T20:07:32Z luis: Hmm, although the site only lists CMUCL, ECL, SBCL, ABCL and CCL, https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/asdf/asdf/-/blob/master/gitlab-ci.yml suggests there's a CLISP image too.
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2021-04-13T20:13:02Z nij: Weird.. in my stumpwm config, I have (when (ignore-errors (ql:quickload :some-package)) (progn (defcommand ..)))
2021-04-13T20:13:22Z nij: So when :some-package fails to load, the progn block doesn't get evaluated.
2021-04-13T20:13:31Z Bike: but you get a read error anyway?
2021-04-13T20:13:37Z nij: However, defcommand does get evaluated! And the other sub-blocks do not!
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2021-04-13T20:13:52Z nij: Could it be that defcommand is a macro that leaks? Is it even possible?
2021-04-13T20:13:52Z Bike: oh. dang, my crystal ball is off today
2021-04-13T20:14:31Z Bike: leaks as in modifies the surrounding context in this way? no, t hat's not possible.
2021-04-13T20:14:40Z Bike: what do you mean by "the other sub-blocks"
2021-04-13T20:14:43Z Bike: the other forms in the progn?
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2021-04-13T20:19:13Z jasom: my brain is not working today.  How does one print a zero-padded integer with format?
2021-04-13T20:19:33Z Bike: "3,'0d" i think?
2021-04-13T20:19:49Z jasom: Bike: that gives e.g. 0-3 for negative 3
2021-04-13T20:20:05Z Bike: huh, so it does.
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2021-04-13T20:23:39Z _death: you could do something yucky like (format t "~A~3,'0D" (if (minusp x) "-" "") (abs x))
2021-04-13T20:24:16Z Bike: yeah, it doesn't seem like there's a ~d incantation here
2021-04-13T20:24:49Z jasom: _death: that gives the behavior like C's "%.3d" but still not like C's "%03d" (the former prints 3 digits, the later 3 characters)
2021-04-13T20:25:21Z Bike: throw in v and subtract 1 from the digit count if it's negative
2021-04-13T20:25:26Z Bike: really sucks at that point though
2021-04-13T20:25:37Z jasom: this might be a job for ~/
2021-04-13T20:25:57Z luis: https://github.com/splittist/printfcl *runs away*
2021-04-13T20:26:01Z splittist: (printfcl:printf "%03d" thing)
2021-04-13T20:26:07Z splittist: (:
2021-04-13T20:26:07Z Xach: lol
2021-04-13T20:31:13Z Krystof: do you have a compiler macro to turn constant-printf-string printfs into constant-format-string format controls?
2021-04-13T20:35:34Z splittist: Krystof: no. The forthcoming scanfcl does compile its control string, though.
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2021-04-13T20:40:31Z Krystof: (format t "~:[~3,'0D~;-~2,'0D~]" (minusp x) (abs x)) ; for what it's worth
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2021-04-13T20:41:30Z luis chuckles
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2021-04-13T21:00:57Z lotuseater: i learned today for what SYMBOL-MACROLET not to use :) had often something like (aref e k) in a function with even SETF and thought, oh hm, so use (symbol-macrolet ((e_k '(aref e k))) ...)
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2021-04-13T21:01:07Z lotuseater: but labeling readmacros did it then ^^
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2021-04-13T21:07:01Z _death: it's fine to use that.. except that extraneous quote
2021-04-13T21:07:44Z lotuseater: ah i thought it has to be a symbolic expression
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2021-04-13T21:11:18Z lotuseater: oh cool thanks. sometimes those are really useful
2021-04-13T21:12:55Z lotuseater: but hm, the other thing was, translating an algorithm with three closures and that use same parameter names as declared for lexical scope in the main algorithm ^^ how does FLET handle that?
2021-04-13T21:14:04Z lotuseater: being more concrete, it was this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobi_eigenvalue_algorithm#Algorithm
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2021-04-13T21:17:01Z _death: not sure what you're asking.. this pseudocode looks like it could use some factoring.. I'd start by pulling those functions out
2021-04-13T21:17:59Z _death: that makes it easier to test things in the repl
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2021-04-13T21:20:54Z Shinmera: Or just use one of a bunch of matrix libraries that can already compute eigenvalues
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2021-04-13T21:33:38Z lotuseater: yes it does need refactoring :D
2021-04-13T21:33:59Z lotuseater: Shinmera: that's not the point :)
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2021-04-13T22:08:41Z ioa: Hi everyone, if you're interested in talking about the ELS, SAL9000 made a room for it: #elsconf
2021-04-13T22:09:37Z ioa: Especially the presence of marco heisig (no bouncer? I forgot his nick), easye and phoe would be very much appreciated, as they have all the info. :)
2021-04-13T22:09:59Z phoe: gasp! #els2021 now has competition
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2021-04-13T22:11:04Z ioa: phoe, oh, I didn't know about #els2021, there was a discussion about this years els in the old room els2020, and SAL9000 made elsconf so we don't create a room every year.
2021-04-13T22:11:16Z ioa: *year's
2021-04-13T22:12:01Z phoe: sure, sounds good! let's discuss the channel setup when everyone (including me) is awake tomorrow
2021-04-13T22:12:24Z ioa: sounds good, good night!
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2021-04-14T00:38:00Z nij: Oh no Bike sorry I missed your message as my friend called. Feeling bad :(
2021-04-14T00:38:25Z nij: >> Weird.. in my stumpwm config, I have (when (ignore-errors (ql:quickload :some-package)) (progn (defcommand ..)))
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2021-04-14T00:39:01Z nij: When :some-package is not presented, (defcommand) was still evaluated, leading to an error.
2021-04-14T00:39:25Z nij: I was wondering if defcommand is some macro that might "leak".
2021-04-14T00:40:18Z nij: So I did put (progn (setf test 123) (defcommand ... something that will fail))..
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2021-04-14T00:41:18Z nij: The package :some-package was not presented, so (progn..) shouldn't be evaluated (indeed, TEST wasn't set to 123). However, (defcommand..) was evaluated and led to another error.
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2021-04-14T01:03:37Z jasom: is it possible to sign-extend a number, given a desired bitwidth? i.e. treat a positive number as being the unsigned representation of a twos-complement value?
2021-04-14T01:03:48Z jasom: so e.g. (foo #xff 8) => -1
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2021-04-14T01:08:06Z moon-child: (defun foo (n b) (let ((m (1- (expt 2 (1- b))))) (if (< n m) n (- m n)))
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2021-04-14T01:08:42Z jasom: right, but nothing builtin for that?
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2021-04-14T01:09:06Z pagnol: morning
2021-04-14T01:09:07Z moon-child: err, s/</<=/
2021-04-14T01:09:34Z jasom: moon-child: or just < without the 1-, but then you'd have a bignum at machine-word sizes
2021-04-14T01:09:59Z moon-child: well, then you would need (- m n 1)
2021-04-14T01:10:09Z moon-child: there's nothing as far as I know.  Txr has it apparently https://www.nongnu.org/txr/txr-manpage.html#N-026F9F46
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2021-04-14T01:23:17Z jasom: Here's what I had, FWIW: (defun foo (x width) (if (logbitp (1- width) x) (- x (ash 1 width)) x))
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2021-04-14T01:26:04Z jasom: though on reflection, this is probably clearer: (defun foo (x width) (if (logbitp (1- width) x) (dpb x (byte width 0) -1) x))
2021-04-14T01:26:32Z mfiano: jasom: https://gist.github.com/mfiano/953226eee589cb20a54b6bf705962a01
2021-04-14T01:26:50Z mfiano: I'd be impressed if you can do this more efficiently. stassats helped me write that years ago
2021-04-14T01:26:57Z mfiano: (with proper type annotations of course)
2021-04-14T01:27:40Z jasom: ah, uses a multiply to avoid a branch.  Probably a good call on any processor made in the last 20 years or so
2021-04-14T01:27:47Z moon-child: mfiano: sounds like a compiler issue :P
2021-04-14T01:28:58Z moon-child: assuming 'width' is hardware assisted, it should be no more than 3 instructions
2021-04-14T01:29:18Z moon-child: (maybe a couple extra if you want to avoid a branch, but predictable branches are übercheap)
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2021-04-14T01:32:12Z jasom: mfiano: same # instructions between that and mine, with mine having a branch
2021-04-14T01:32:24Z jasom: s/instructions/bytes
2021-04-14T01:32:48Z jasom: mine is fewer instructions
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2021-04-14T01:36:11Z jasom: mfiano: yours is about 2x as fast on a quick benchmark despite being more instructions; not too surprising since the sign bit branch is completly random on my test-case
2021-04-14T01:36:15Z mfiano: Code size is not a really meaningful metric
2021-04-14T01:36:37Z jasom: mfiano: I suspect mine would be faster if the test corpus was entirely positive or entirely negative
2021-04-14T01:37:00Z jasom: just tested, and it's indeed slightly faster
2021-04-14T01:37:21Z mfiano: Also depends on the register allocator
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2021-04-14T01:37:47Z jasom: in this test case there were plenty of registers so it wouldn't have discovered that
2021-04-14T01:37:54Z jasom: gtg, dinner
2021-04-14T01:38:12Z mfiano: SBCL will register-allocate lexivars if it deems it is good to do so
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2021-04-14T02:03:35Z pagnol: Has anyone here used Postmodern a lot? I only recently found out about it and it seems like the ideal way to interface with a relational db to me, but I'm wondering if there are downsides that only become apparent after a while.
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2021-04-14T02:09:40Z nij: Hello! I'm trying out qlot. In its official github repo, it says I can get it by (ql:quickload :qlot). But that doesn't seem to generate the binary `qlot` (for cli usage) directly. Did I miss any step? https://github.com/fukamachi/qlot
2021-04-14T02:10:41Z Bike: well, in the readme it mentions that the roswell install, introduces the shell command unlike the quicklisp install
2021-04-14T02:11:14Z Bike: i don't see any obvious explanation of how you get the shell command if installed via quicklisp
2021-04-14T02:11:43Z nij: Erg :-( ok.. yeah I thought there might be an easy way.
2021-04-14T02:11:51Z nij: I'll have to learn rowell then..
2021-04-14T02:12:16Z Bike: there's a makefile. maybe you can just do make
2021-04-14T02:12:36Z Bike: it looks like said makefile just does (asdf:make :qlot)
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2021-04-14T02:16:04Z nij: very weird, under my .quicklisp/dist.../qlot there's no makefile
2021-04-14T02:16:12Z nij: I should download it from github directly, right?
2021-04-14T02:16:31Z Bike: ?\_(?)_/?
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2021-04-14T02:17:51Z nij: \ ?_? /
2021-04-14T02:18:13Z nij: (this emoji seems confusing and bursting out tears. love it)
2021-04-14T02:19:02Z Bike: hm, something on my end butchered the encoding. sad
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2021-04-14T02:45:01Z jasom: mfiano: I beat your version
2021-04-14T02:45:39Z mfiano: Like I siad, I removed the optimizations from mine because I don't know your input
2021-04-14T02:46:05Z jasom: mfiano: sb-c::mask-signed-fied
2021-04-14T02:47:14Z mfiano: If that works for you, fair enoguh. As for me, I wrote Common Lisp code, else I'd be using blub if I wrote code for one implementation
2021-04-14T02:49:43Z jasom: hmm, it looks much better in the assembly but is testing out as 50% slower.  That's quite odd.
2021-04-14T02:50:25Z mfiano: the statistical profiler will likely be showing the foreign syscalls that slow it down.
2021-04-14T02:50:51Z jasom: There are literally 2 instructions before the CLC/POP RBP
2021-04-14T02:51:17Z jasom: MOVSX RDX, DL and SHL RDX 1
2021-04-14T02:51:40Z jasom: Is movsx super slow or something?
2021-04-14T02:52:13Z moon-child: https://www.agner.org/optimize/instruction_tables.pdf nope
2021-04-14T02:56:26Z jasom: ah, I just had the value/width backwards since it was opposite of sign-extend.
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2021-04-14T02:57:22Z jasom: the mask-signed-field version is too fast for me to measure with this benchmark (summing a list of integers vs summing it sign-extended differ by less than the noise)
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2021-04-14T02:59:36Z mfiano: it's roughly an order of a magnitude and a half faster
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2021-04-14T03:07:37Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-04-14T03:08:06Z mfiano: Hello beach
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2021-04-14T03:09:05Z remby: In sbcl, this seems to be an error: (setf x 10). It says x is an undefined variable.
2021-04-14T03:09:17Z moon-child: yes
2021-04-14T03:09:23Z no-defun-allowed: Yes.
2021-04-14T03:09:28Z moon-child: you need to define or bind variables before you assign to them
2021-04-14T03:10:09Z mfiano: It's a warning, not an error, but implementations aren't required to do so
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2021-04-14T03:11:28Z remby: I was reading practical common lisp and it gave me the impression you could do this, but I misunderstood the example.
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2021-04-14T03:12:03Z remby: right near the assignment header, what do you think they meant to say? http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/variables.html
2021-04-14T03:12:37Z mfiano: Exactly what they say
2021-04-14T03:12:41Z mfiano: "Once you've created a binding, you can do two things with it: get the current value and set it to a new value."
2021-04-14T03:13:02Z remby: oh, duh
2021-04-14T03:13:09Z remby facepalms
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2021-04-14T03:13:23Z mfiano: The book should be read linearly
2021-04-14T03:13:29Z mfiano: The previous topic discussing binding
2021-04-14T03:13:43Z remby: yeah with defparameter and defar
2021-04-14T03:13:49Z mfiano: and more
2021-04-14T03:14:05Z mfiano: That whole chapter is about ways to bind and use variables
2021-04-14T03:14:11Z mfiano: defparameter and defvar are but two ways
2021-04-14T03:14:53Z remby: I read the entire page, but I skimmed over the let binding
2021-04-14T03:15:19Z mfiano: I would advise against skimming. That book only really has value if you read it linearly and perform all of the practicals
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2021-04-14T03:19:30Z nij: Here's the example what I meant by that the stumpwm macro "defcommand" might be leaking.. dunno why it's the case - https://bpa.st/JOXQ . It stays in the second argument of #'when, and it should not be evaluated. But it is...
2021-04-14T03:19:37Z nij: Could a lisp macro be leaking like this?
2021-04-14T03:23:02Z Bike: no. it couldn't be.
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2021-04-14T03:23:23Z Bike: are you sure you have the situation right? like, for example, could something else have defined the record! command?
2021-04-14T03:23:44Z nij: no.. it's pointing to that exact file. and when i add something, the indicating line changes accordingly.
2021-04-14T03:24:49Z Bike: well i don't know what to tell you. that is not how lisp works. the defcommand is not actually being evaluated.
2021-04-14T03:25:00Z Bike: also, the reason you're getting this error is that lisp tries to read the entire form before evaluating it
2021-04-14T03:25:03Z beach: nij: What do you mean by "#'when"?
2021-04-14T03:25:10Z Bike: so it will read recording:prompt-recording before :recording is quickloaded
2021-04-14T03:25:14Z Bike: presumably the when macro
2021-04-14T03:25:19Z nij: beach: the when macro
2021-04-14T03:25:20Z nij: yeah
2021-04-14T03:25:33Z beach: nij: That's a strange way of indicating it.
2021-04-14T03:25:59Z nij: why? -- CL-USER> #'when #<FUNCTION (:MACRO WHEN) {1000DA2A3B}>
2021-04-14T03:26:20Z no-defun-allowed: Try it on Clozure.
2021-04-14T03:26:43Z nij: Bike, well, but that form shouldn't even been touched, right?
2021-04-14T03:26:44Z Bike: it is an error to use function on a symbol that denotes a macro or special form
2021-04-14T03:26:48Z nij: Cuz the predicate fails.
2021-04-14T03:27:06Z Bike: the form that is read is the _entire_ form
2021-04-14T03:27:07Z no-defun-allowed: ...or ECL, or ABCL, or CLISP even.
2021-04-14T03:27:08Z nij: Bike: how would you address a macro or a special form?
2021-04-14T03:27:14Z no-defun-allowed: "The macro WHEN"
2021-04-14T03:27:20Z Bike: it reads the whole thing at once. (when ... (recording:prompt-recording) ...)
2021-04-14T03:27:44Z Bike: and yes, you could just say "the macro WHEN". to get the macro function you would do (macro-function 'when)
2021-04-14T03:27:54Z nij: Bike: if it's just READing.. then it should read RECORDING:PROMPT-RECORDING as a symbol, without issue, no?
2021-04-14T03:28:05Z Bike: the reader cannot handle symbols from unknown packages
2021-04-14T03:28:28Z Bike: because packages can use other packages, it is not clear what package a qualified symbol actually belongs to until the package is defined
2021-04-14T03:28:44Z nij: OH!
2021-04-14T03:28:49Z nij: Yay thanks that clarifies!
2021-04-14T03:28:53Z nij: CL-USER> (when nil h:hiiii); Debugger entered on #<SB-INT:SIMPLE-READER-PACKAGE-ERROR "Package ~A does not exist." {1001A9BBD3}>
2021-04-14T03:29:03Z nij: Now I understand. Thank you very much :)
2021-04-14T03:29:03Z Bike: mhm
2021-04-14T03:29:25Z Bike: i don't know what's going on with the defcommand thing though. all i can guess is you have persistent state between trials messing things up.
2021-04-14T03:29:39Z nij: no then defcommand isn't the problem
2021-04-14T03:29:42Z nij: it's not evaluated
2021-04-14T03:29:47Z nij: my problem was that error
2021-04-14T03:29:53Z Bike: ok, great.
2021-04-14T03:29:57Z nij: then .. how to workaround this?
2021-04-14T03:30:13Z nij: on some machine i don't expect the package to be loaded correctly
2021-04-14T03:30:23Z nij: if that's the case, I don't intend to load config for it
2021-04-14T03:30:24Z Bike: you could do some annoying things with find-symbol, like (funcall (find-symbol "PROMPT-RECORDING" "RECORDING"))
2021-04-14T03:30:40Z Bike: then the symbol won't actually be looked up  until the form is evaluated, so the reader won't complain
2021-04-14T03:31:08Z nij: I mean.. only want that config when the package is loaded correctly
2021-04-14T03:31:12Z Bike: right
2021-04-14T03:31:15Z nij: otherwise, skip that piece of config
2021-04-14T03:31:29Z Bike: so i mean if you do the find-symbol thing, it will do what you're trying to do here, i think
2021-04-14T03:31:35Z Bike: none of that code will be evaluated if the quickload failed
2021-04-14T03:31:49Z Bike: but the reader won't complain
2021-04-14T03:31:54Z nij: I need to write recording:prompt-recording somewhere in the code, no?
2021-04-14T03:32:00Z Bike: No
2021-04-14T03:32:10Z Bike: Try (find-symbol "PROMPT-RECORDING" "RECORDING") in the repl
2021-04-14T03:32:15Z Bike: or (find-symbol "MAX" "CL") or something
2021-04-14T03:32:20Z Bike: you get the symbol back.
2021-04-14T03:32:33Z Bike: it will look it up at runtime, rather than at read time
2021-04-14T03:32:54Z Bike: so, if the quickload fails, the find-symbol will not be evaluated, so the symbol is not looked up, so there's no problem
2021-04-14T03:34:04Z nij: and if it succeeds, the find-symbol will return the right symbol, which will in turn be evaluated?
2021-04-14T03:34:09Z nij: and the config is loaded?
2021-04-14T03:34:44Z Bike: uhhuh.
2021-04-14T03:35:20Z nij: ((find-symbol "+" "CL") 1 1) => error
2021-04-14T03:35:22Z nij: no..
2021-04-14T03:36:01Z mfiano: This isn't scheme
2021-04-14T03:36:03Z Bike: funcall
2021-04-14T03:36:14Z Bike: did you see the funcall? when i write things i mean them to be involved
2021-04-14T03:36:21Z Bike: (funcall (find-symbol "+" "CL") 1 1)
2021-04-14T03:36:33Z nij: OHOHok of course
2021-04-14T03:36:45Z nij: thanks! learned a lot :)
2021-04-14T03:36:54Z nij: I was quite confused. Now i'm fine!
2021-04-14T03:36:57Z Bike: glad to be of assistance
2021-04-14T03:37:01Z nij: <3 GN
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2021-04-14T04:14:10Z contrapunctus: I'm writing something dealing with vCard data, and it seems the only result for the only Lisp library for it is here. The link is dead and I can't find the project anywhere else :\ https://old.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/qk3ag/clvcard_parsing_vcard_with_common_lisp/
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2021-04-14T04:57:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: contrapunctus: I've recently used soiree ( https://github.com/slyrus/soiree ) for this sort of thing
2021-04-14T04:58:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: I ended up writing my own ics parser, though, because I wanted a streaming-style parser, rather than instantiating objects for the whole calendar in memory
2021-04-14T04:59:06Z contrapunctus: fiddlerwoaroof: whoa, thanks a lot
2021-04-14T05:01:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: If you need to handle ics files only, I have this: https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/lisp-sandbox/blob/master/ical-parser.lisp
2021-04-14T05:02:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: I might actually have something more "production quality": this is in my experiments repo
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2021-04-14T05:04:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/aion/blob/master/build-tree.lisp
2021-04-14T05:05:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: This project is my more fleshed-out version
2021-04-14T05:05:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: No docs yet (sorry), but this is an example of the protocol I've designed to process the stream of data from an iCalendar format file
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2021-04-14T05:06:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: I also have a version that generates an sqlite db because I really like https://datasette.io for data exploration
2021-04-14T05:07:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: ^ contrapunctus
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2021-04-14T06:33:25Z Shinmera: There's also my https://shinmera.github.io/iclendar
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2021-04-14T06:40:37Z contrapunctus: Shinmera: I figured I'd at least update the licenses for your projects on awesome-cl - and there are so many! Talk about prolific 🤯
2021-04-14T06:41:33Z Shinmera: too many, some would argue
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2021-04-14T07:02:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: Shinmera: I guess I should have checked your repos first :)
2021-04-14T07:02:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: I made the mistake of just checking Cliki
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2021-04-14T07:03:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: Although, I think your library is the inverse of mine: I only support parsing ics, you only seem to support generating it
2021-04-14T07:04:06Z Shinmera: Yes, I never got around to implementing parsing.
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2021-04-14T07:05:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: I consulted the RFC for mine, but I didn't implement everything: I implemented what was necessary to parse my work calendar and a couple random calendars I found online
2021-04-14T07:05:42Z Shinmera: As usual with RFCs the spec is absolutely insane
2021-04-14T07:05:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah
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2021-04-14T07:07:04Z Shinmera: iclendar has the advantage that it actually defines all types and relations in code already, so it could become a strict parser at some point.
2021-04-14T07:07:12Z contrapunctus: Shinmera: some clarification - `deploy` still seems to be Artistic License - is this deliberate? Also, qtools is zlib, correct? For some reason GitHub doesn't seem to recognize it in that specific case.
2021-04-14T07:07:51Z Shinmera: ah, damn, must have forgotten to update deploy somehow, let me fix that.
2021-04-14T07:08:24Z Shinmera: everything should be zlib. if it isn't there's a bug :)
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2021-04-14T07:09:09Z Shinmera: I did the update through a script back then... wonder how it missed deploy.
2021-04-14T07:09:58Z contrapunctus: Shinmera: ^^ ditto https://github.com/Shinmera/definitions
2021-04-14T07:13:05Z Shinmera: Ah, I was on a branch for that one. At least that explains that lol
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2021-04-14T07:14:22Z Shinmera: Fixed both, thanks.
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2021-04-14T07:35:44Z contrapunctus: Glad to be of help ^^
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2021-04-14T07:36:55Z lukego: anyone else using Lisp/sbcl from nixpkgs or am I the only such fool around here?
2021-04-14T07:37:36Z jackdaniel: s/fool/visionary/ ;-)
2021-04-14T07:38:37Z contrapunctus: lukego: I might be joining you in that soon.
2021-04-14T07:38:47Z contrapunctus: (...but on NixOS.)
2021-04-14T07:38:54Z lukego: my condolences to you but misery loves company :)
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2021-04-14T07:40:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: lukego: I'm using sbcl mostly from nix
2021-04-14T07:40:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: on darwin
2021-04-14T07:41:04Z lukego: I was just starting to spell out my current problem but I think I arrived at the solution - or at least a next step - in mid-sorrow :)
2021-04-14T07:41:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: Although, I sort of think I prefer my old way of manually building sbcl and putting it in ~/sbcl
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2021-04-14T07:42:08Z lukego: I made an overlay to tweak the flags that sbcl is built with and I'm going nuts trying to understand why this new sbcl isn't being used. but now I realize that the one that is being used is from my user environment. so I know where to look for a problem now
2021-04-14T07:42:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, on my work laptop I use home-manager to manage all that, and just install from my overlay to the user environment
2021-04-14T07:44:17Z lukego: Nix has a lot of new features and workflows but I somehow keep using the ones from way back when I first installed it, when "nix pills" was the state of the art
2021-04-14T07:44:38Z lukego: I have heard the term "home manager" before but don't know what it means :)
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2021-04-14T07:44:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: When I started this job a  couple months ago, I decided to rebuild my setup
2021-04-14T07:45:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: home-manager is pretty cool, you have a home.nix and it generates a lot of the dotfiles I used to manage in my dotfiles github repo.  It also lets me pick which packages get installed in the user environment
2021-04-14T07:45:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: Which I like, because I don't want to mess with the rest of my mac's system
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2021-04-14T07:46:30Z lukego: I'm in a bit of a "lone hacker" mode. The nix expression for my Lisp program actually installs a lot of related stuff e.g. Emacs with a bunch of packages and their configurations.
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2021-04-14T07:46:52Z lukego: I'm using ql2nix and that's treating me pretty well
2021-04-14T07:47:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: Cool, I've been meaning to try that
2021-04-14T07:47:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: I find that I want all my dependency management to be initiated from the REPL, though
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2021-04-14T07:47:57Z lukego: yeah interesting, having Lisp wear the pants and dump out nix expressions could be a nice style
2021-04-14T07:48:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, I only install sbcl through nix: when I absolutely need to pin versions, I use legit to clone the relevant repos and configure ASDF
2021-04-14T07:50:10Z lukego: I have a Nix expression with a list [ "1am" "alexandria" ... ] of all quicklisp packages that I want installed and then it arranges for them all to be built and ready when I start sbcl
2021-04-14T07:50:36Z contrapunctus: lukego: sounds like you want Guix 🤔
2021-04-14T07:50:46Z lukego: contrapunctus: have been meaning to look at it one day :)
2021-04-14T07:50:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: I like to pretend that I have a lispos
2021-04-14T07:51:04Z lukego: I want everything pinned by default though, that's the appeal of Nix for me
2021-04-14T07:51:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I've also grown to dislike version pinning from Javascript
2021-04-14T07:52:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'd rather be forced to fix my code when the deps update rather than slowly dig myself into a huge pit as the world moves away from me
2021-04-14T07:52:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: If a library breaks my code too many times, I just ban it
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2021-04-14T07:54:19Z splittist: What's my best bet for a quick something I can display (possibly elaborately) styled text on  from lisp, on Windows 10?
2021-04-14T07:54:41Z moon-child: browser? :P
2021-04-14T07:54:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: spinneret + hunchentoot?
2021-04-14T07:54:59Z lukego: fiddlerwoaroof: yeah. I regularly update to the latest of everything, i.e. refresh my nix distro from the latest quicklisp, but at least I decide when to do that and I can easily rollback if there's a problem that I'm not in the mood to debug.
2021-04-14T07:58:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: lukego: I've sort of been radicalized with the way I can just load and run 40 year old code in CL
2021-04-14T07:58:37Z splittist: Good point. And now I change the requirements: And interact with the text with keyboard and (probably) mouse.
2021-04-14T07:58:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: websocket-driver
2021-04-14T07:59:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think doing that from the browser is the goal of this: https://github.com/rabbibotton/clog
2021-04-14T07:59:28Z lukego: fiddlerwoaroof: I'm likewise radicalized by the old days when a "weekend of lisp hacking" would just mean getting a compatible set of dependencies from cvs :)
2021-04-14T08:00:13Z lukego: (but more genreally I basically stopped using dependencies of any kind many years ago, and then started again when I found nix and could police them. but I digress.)
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2021-04-14T08:05:24Z lukego: Speaking of errors when rebuilding dependencies, I'm getting an error on compiling screamer now that I didn't have before, with two warnings and one error. I /think/ that the error is a -Werror kind of situation i.e. the compiler didn't find an error but asdf errored when it noticed the warnings (with a backtrace instead of an explanation.) plausible?
2021-04-14T08:06:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: lukego: line 75ff here is sort of my sketch of an in-cl way to do something nix-like: https://git.fiddlerwoaroof.com/u/edwlan/git-systems.git/blob/master/git-systems.lisp#L75
2021-04-14T08:06:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't think I've ever seen that happen
2021-04-14T08:07:03Z lukego: (and for all my talk of rolling back inconvenient breakages I can't actually do that because I didn't check-in my previous nix snapshots of quicklisp packages. so um a valuable learning experience about missed steps in my workflow)
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2021-04-14T08:07:45Z Nilby: splittist: Unfortunately the bar for such a thing is very high now that it's expected to handle all the worlds languages and render super fast in a GPU.
2021-04-14T08:07:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: Screamer loads fine for me
2021-04-14T08:08:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: sbcl 2.1.3.71-f98bf1148 on arm64, http://beta.quicklisp.org/archive/screamer/2019-07-10/screamer-20190710-git.tgz
2021-04-14T08:08:36Z lukego: seems like asdf:*compile-file-failure-behaviour* default behavior on SBCL will error from ASDF if the compiler warns
2021-04-14T08:09:01Z Shinmera: splittist: qtools should still work fine on windows.
2021-04-14T08:09:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: lukego: *compile-file-warnings-behaviour* I think is the equivalent to -Werror
2021-04-14T08:09:44Z lukego: hey it is actually kind of nice that -Werror is the default. that motivates me to actually dig into problems knowing that other people aren't just leaving them :). here's the screamer warning, I'll dig into it now https://gist.github.com/lukego/1da425f16384bb53f2c416c49d5b6ecd
2021-04-14T08:09:47Z splittist: Shinmera: I get "debugger invoked on a SB-KERNEL::UNDEFINED-ALIEN-FUNCTION-ERROR ...  The alien function "sw_find_class" is undefined."
2021-04-14T08:09:56Z Shinmera: :(
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2021-04-14T08:10:20Z lukego: (though if I need to patch screamer that's a problem because my current nix workflow doesn't really support anything but upstream projects from quicklisp..)
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2021-04-14T08:12:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is there a good library for extracting only interesting content from an HTML page
2021-04-14T08:12:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: e.g. a readability type thing?
2021-04-14T08:13:01Z lukego: this looks like a pretty clear cut bug in screamer:
2021-04-14T08:13:02Z lukego:              (if (vectorp sequence)
2021-04-14T08:13:02Z lukego:                  (dolist (element sequence)
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2021-04-14T08:13:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah
2021-04-14T08:14:05Z jackdaniel: it  is written for a special-purpose implementations that represent vectors as lists :)
2021-04-14T08:14:22Z lukego: sounds like something I would do ..
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2021-04-14T08:14:37Z asarch: One stupid question: if I had this (:id 30 :username "asarch" :password "xxx-yyy") I could easily get the username with (getf user :username)
2021-04-14T08:14:50Z Shinmera: splittist: if you add a :depends-on for qt-libs first, does that work?
2021-04-14T08:14:55Z jackdaniel: that's not a question
2021-04-14T08:15:36Z asarch: But what if I would have a list of lists with n elements ((:id 1 :username "foo" :password "...") (:id 2 :username "bar" :password "...") ... (:id n :username "baz" :password "...")), how could I easily get the username of the n element?
2021-04-14T08:16:15Z jackdaniel: (getf (nth n your-list) :user)
2021-04-14T08:16:26Z asarch: Do I need to traverse the entire list every time I want a specific element of them?
2021-04-14T08:16:28Z jackdaniel: s/:user/:username/
2021-04-14T08:16:42Z asarch: Bingo!
2021-04-14T08:16:53Z asarch: Thank you! Thank you very much! :-)
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2021-04-14T08:17:34Z asarch: But what if I don't know the position of the record?
2021-04-14T08:17:36Z jackdaniel: if you store users on the list and you are not caching results (or add other optimizations) then yes, you traverse the list
2021-04-14T08:17:46Z jackdaniel: then how do you know which username do you want to get?
2021-04-14T08:18:43Z splittist: Shinmera: doesn't qtools already :depends-on qt-libs? The error arises when trying to load the examples.
2021-04-14T08:18:45Z jackdaniel: (find "foo" your-list :key (lambda (o) (getf o :username)) :test #'string=)
2021-04-14T08:18:50Z asarch: All I know is its id, let's say it is 324 and the list is from a query
2021-04-14T08:18:52Z jackdaniel: is one way
2021-04-14T08:19:09Z phoe: asarch: this looks like the ID is some kind of key and everything else is values
2021-04-14T08:19:09Z White_Flame: (getf (find 30 *users* :key (lambda (user) (getf user :id))) :username)
2021-04-14T08:19:19Z phoe: at which point this looks like a hash table use case
2021-04-14T08:19:26Z lukego: (I have to say, reading through the Screamer source once from top to bottom has not really enhanced my enthusiasm for using it)
2021-04-14T08:19:31Z White_Flame: (typed before the last few lines, obviously)
2021-04-14T08:19:40Z jackdaniel: your solution is more complete!
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2021-04-14T08:20:06Z phoe: lukego: https://github.com/nikodemus/screamer/issues/19
2021-04-14T08:20:37Z White_Flame: since the FIND will return NIL on not found, it should all safely collapse to NIL even through the subsequent GETFs
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2021-04-14T08:20:42Z lukego: phoe: ah! the version issue
2021-04-14T08:21:15Z jackdaniel: another solution (loop for user = (nth (random (length users)) users) when (eq (getf user :id) <your-id>) do (return (getf user :username))) ;-]
2021-04-14T08:21:21Z Shinmera: splittist: it does but there's some weird dependency fluke apparently
2021-04-14T08:21:27Z Shinmera: splittist: https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/b3a27e/qtools_the_alien_function_sw_find_class_is/
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2021-04-14T08:22:59Z asarch: Thank you very much once again guys :-)
2021-04-14T08:23:04Z splittist: Shinmera: OK. Trying. Thanks! I know you have better things to do.
2021-04-14T08:23:17Z asarch: Have a nice day :-)
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2021-04-14T08:23:22Z jackdaniel: you too, thanks
2021-04-14T08:23:26Z Shinmera: splittist: No no, sorry things aren't working right away :(
2021-04-14T08:23:51Z Shinmera: I also wish I could just recommend Alloy, but it's still very rough.
2021-04-14T08:24:20Z phoe: I had this qtools issue when installing/compiling from scratch; I usually install and compile it, close my image, quickload it again, and then it works
2021-04-14T08:24:42Z phoe: but this only manifests during the very very first installation so I rarely ever reproduce it
2021-04-14T08:25:25Z Shinmera: yeah it's a very elusive bug that I could never quite trace.
2021-04-14T08:25:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, the USE-VALUE restart in slime seems to break everything when it's selected for a PACKAGE-DOES-NOT-EXIST error
2021-04-14T08:26:15Z phoe: huh? what do you mean?
2021-04-14T08:26:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's more complicated than that
2021-04-14T08:26:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm not entirely sure what's going on
2021-04-14T08:27:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, I put https://github.com/ruricolist/cl-boilerpipe into my local projects and then tried to load it
2021-04-14T08:27:30Z phoe: (handler-bind ((sb-ext:package-does-not-exist (lambda (c) (declare (ignore c)) (invoke-restart 'use-value :cl-user)))) (in-package :cl-ooser))
2021-04-14T08:27:33Z phoe: this works for me
2021-04-14T08:27:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: it complained that the package OPTIMA wasn't found, so I hit 2 to attempt to trick it into using TRIVIA
2021-04-14T08:27:47Z Shinmera: phoe: another ping for your verbose issue
2021-04-14T08:27:54Z phoe: Shinmera: aaaa, yes, thank you
2021-04-14T08:27:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: And slime and everything froze
2021-04-14T08:28:13Z phoe: oooh, like that
2021-04-14T08:28:24Z phoe: might have more complex interactions during compilation
2021-04-14T08:30:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, the backtrace is interesting
2021-04-14T08:30:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: The condition seems to be being signaled while a lock is held
2021-04-14T08:30:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: Inside the processing of a defpackage form
2021-04-14T08:31:16Z lukego: dammit looks like I'll just disable -Werror in asdf because I don't really understand how to apply a patch to Screamer in my current setup
2021-04-14T08:31:49Z jackdaniel: -Cerror
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2021-04-14T08:31:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: lukego: you can always add a file to your project that does IN-PACKAGE and then redefines
2021-04-14T08:31:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: :)
2021-04-14T08:32:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: Here's the backtrace I'm seeing: https://fwoar.co/pastebin/8da8b90c5df10c1116aefccfe888fa7548ef79ce.nil.html
2021-04-14T08:32:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: Now to see if I can come up with a minimal reproducing case
2021-04-14T08:33:42Z lukego: maybe the lowest hanging fruit here would be to somehow get quicklisp to apply patches during installation
2021-04-14T08:33:55Z lukego: anyone have such a mechanism? (asdf-level would be fine too I guess)
2021-04-14T08:35:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: lukego: it's sort of a hack, but you could add a component that's like (:file "patches")
2021-04-14T08:35:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: And just put all the patches into patches.lisp
2021-04-14T08:35:09Z Shinmera: you can build your own quicklisp dist that has different versions of the libraries you want to patch.
2021-04-14T08:35:18Z Shinmera: but that's involved.
2021-04-14T08:35:25Z flip214: lukego: I've just a few local git checkouts with changes in my local-projects
2021-04-14T08:35:26Z lukego: fiddlerwoaroof: but I don't have a private copy of the source tree where the asd file is defined
2021-04-14T08:35:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: Add it to your project's asd
2021-04-14T08:36:01Z lukego: I have a few local git checkouts too but I don't like that because it undermines my pinning and upgrading discpline. but okay that would be an acceptable workaround especially for screamer that's not updating rapidly
2021-04-14T08:36:24Z lukego: fiddlerwoaroof: my project's asd doesn't get loaded because its dependencies have failed to compile
2021-04-14T08:36:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, yeah you'd need to have a second system
2021-04-14T08:37:18Z lukego: I think that patches make sense to me. I'll be meaning to make a series of small temporary changes sparsely spread across various dependencies
2021-04-14T08:37:29Z lukego: lemme see if ql2nix provides an opportunity to patch things neatly
2021-04-14T08:37:39Z splittist: Shinmera: works. Thanks again!
2021-04-14T08:38:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: lukego: https://fwoar.co/pastebin/21e29c594ecc6cb4b7bd2cd57d6b31677c72c511.asd.html
2021-04-14T08:38:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've done something like this a couple times
2021-04-14T08:38:43Z lukego: fiddlerwoaroof: that looks neat but you still needed to patch the .asd file defining example
2021-04-14T08:38:59Z lukego: and at the moment I lack a way to patch my dependnecies
2021-04-14T08:39:32Z Shinmera: splittist: phew!
2021-04-14T08:39:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: Because it's a defsystem-depends-on, it'll be loaded before processing your project's dependencies
2021-04-14T08:40:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html#Defsystem-depends-on
2021-04-14T08:40:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, that won't work either
2021-04-14T08:40:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ignore me :)
2021-04-14T08:41:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: I just realized that I'm assuming the dependency actually loads
2021-04-14T08:44:18Z lukego: you know for now I'll just stop using screamer :)
2021-04-14T08:49:06Z phoe: I can see that nikodemus is not very active
2021-04-14T08:49:28Z phoe: maybe it would be worth to fork screamers to sharplispers and apply the fix there, since it's trivial
2021-04-14T08:49:44Z phoe: Xach: fe[nl]ix: what do you think?
2021-04-14T08:49:51Z phoe: s/screamers/screamer
2021-04-14T08:53:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: nikodemus has basically quit CL, I think
2021-04-14T08:54:29Z scymtym: phoe: sounds good to me. for other projects he created or was involved in (esrap, alexandria), ownership has already been transferred. for esrap, he explicitly blessed the transfer
2021-04-14T09:00:24Z jackdaniel: MetaYan_: do you have any opinion about this?
2021-04-14T09:00:43Z phoe: scymtym: I've sent him a mail so I can also have an explicit blessing
2021-04-14T09:01:08Z phoe: ;; and in case of no response, I'll be happy with an implicit blessing
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2021-04-14T09:15:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: Does anyone know of a library for extracting metadata from PDFs?
2021-04-14T09:15:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: cl-pdf isn't great for parsing PDFs
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2021-04-14T09:24:09Z flip214: fiddlerwoaroof: what kind of metadata are you looking for?
2021-04-14T09:24:54Z flip214: Marc is responsive if you have any feature requests
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2021-04-14T09:31:11Z lukego: Maybe should also hack ASDF to print a user-facing message about upgrading errors to warnings, I found that very confusing
2021-04-14T09:31:40Z lukego: I'm really sorely lacking a workflow to be able to hack on dependencies :-|
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2021-04-14T09:46:05Z lukego: I know you all think I'm a bad person for using Serapeum's -> macro to declare function types in design-by-contract style, but I'm finding it really useful in practice, I do a bunch more type checking than I usually would and it catches sloppiness like carelessly returning multiple values
2021-04-14T09:46:48Z phoe: I actually like and dig ftype declarations
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2021-04-14T09:53:12Z flip214: sbcl can infer return types by itself (at least sometimes), so declaring argument types already helps quite a lot
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2021-04-14T10:00:56Z Nilby: Return type? Suprise me. [too complex to check]
2021-04-14T10:01:55Z lukego: I'm declaring return types now and appreciating the compiler often telling me that I'm carelessly returning multiple values when I only mean to return one
2021-04-14T10:03:54Z White_Flame: flip214: it doesn't do that for non-returning error calls, though
2021-04-14T10:04:02Z Nilby: Unused multiple values are a primary food source for hungry ghosts.
2021-04-14T10:04:31Z White_Flame: (the fixnum (case foo (:a 1) (:b 2) (otherwise (call-error ...)))) will cause SBCL to scream, even though (otherwise (error ...)) is fine
2021-04-14T10:07:24Z Nilby: You never know when error could return: "the kinds of sweeping effects hinted at by this example"
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2021-04-14T10:08:53Z White_Flame: that quote is specifically about an implementation being buggy
2021-04-14T10:09:01Z phoe: White_Flame: actually, no
2021-04-14T10:09:10Z phoe: (declaim (ftype (function () nil) foo)) (defun foo () (error "foo")) (defun bar (x) (the fixnum (case x (:a 1) (:b 2) (otherwise (foo)))))
2021-04-14T10:09:13Z phoe: no warnings for me
2021-04-14T10:09:50Z White_Flame: hmm, I've tried (function (&rest t) nil) before, and that did nothing for me
2021-04-14T10:09:53Z White_Flame tries again
2021-04-14T10:11:23Z White_Flame: maybe because this is about a LABELS function and not a DEFUN?
2021-04-14T10:11:59Z phoe: (defun bar (x) (labels ((foo () (error "foo"))) (declare (ftype (function () nil) foo)) (the fixnum (case x (:a 1) (:b 2) (otherwise (foo))))))
2021-04-14T10:12:03Z phoe: no warnings for me
2021-04-14T10:14:07Z White_Flame: it tells me that my (syntax-error (&rest rest) ..build error string... (error ...)) function has some wrong derived type, not my declared type
2021-04-14T10:14:32Z White_Flame: (declare (ftype (function (&rest t) nil) syntax-error))
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2021-04-14T10:16:39Z White_Flame: "Result is a (VALUES (OR NUMBER (MEMBER :TRUE :NULL :FALSE NIL)) &OPTIONAL), not a CHARACTER."
2021-04-14T10:16:56Z phoe: hmmm
2021-04-14T10:16:59Z phoe: show me the code?
2021-04-14T10:17:13Z White_Flame: it's an internal thing, I'd have to extract it
2021-04-14T10:17:32Z phoe: also, uh
2021-04-14T10:17:36Z phoe: you declare the result type to be NIL
2021-04-14T10:17:46Z phoe: and it complains that it's not a character
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2021-04-14T10:17:58Z phoe: are you sure it's the right ftype that you're looking at?
2021-04-14T10:19:07Z White_Flame: yes
2021-04-14T10:19:19Z White_Flame: ==> (SB-C::%FUNCALL #'(LABELS SYNTAX-ERROR ....
2021-04-14T10:19:39Z phoe: please extract it then, I'm genuinely curious
2021-04-14T10:19:52Z White_Flame: ok, I'll PM
2021-04-14T10:20:03Z White_Flame: whenI do
2021-04-14T10:20:33Z flip214: for phoe's BAR I get    Derived type: (FUNCTION (T) (VALUES (INTEGER 1 2) &OPTIONAL))
2021-04-14T10:20:50Z flip214: even if I remove the DECLARE
2021-04-14T10:21:35Z flip214: (defun bar2 (x) (the fixnum (case x (:a 1) (:b 2) (otherwise (error "foo")))))
2021-04-14T10:21:42Z flip214:   Derived type: (FUNCTION (T) (VALUES (INTEGER 1 2) &OPTIONAL))
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2021-04-14T10:21:52Z flip214: no magic needed at all
2021-04-14T10:22:07Z phoe: yes, but I assume that White_Flame has a SYNTAX-ERROR call instead of ERROR
2021-04-14T10:22:11Z phoe: which is an indirection
2021-04-14T10:22:21Z White_Flame: right
2021-04-14T10:22:27Z phoe: where SYNTAX-ERROR is some custom function
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2021-04-14T10:22:43Z White_Flame: and of course a simple extraction of just syntax-error and a single use doesn't trip the error
2021-04-14T10:22:48Z White_Flame: it just builds up a more complex error string
2021-04-14T10:24:13Z flip214: If I move the (ERROR ...) out into another function (not even a LABELS) and use it in OTHERWISE, the result is the same
2021-04-14T10:24:36Z flip214: but perhaps this is so small that inlining just makes it the same
2021-04-14T10:25:05Z White_Flame: ah, I was able to trip it...
2021-04-14T10:25:19Z flip214: BAR-ERROR names a compiled function:
2021-04-14T10:25:19Z flip214:   Derived type: (FUNCTION (T) NIL)
2021-04-14T10:25:19Z flip214:   Source form: (LAMBDA (X) (BLOCK BAR-ERROR (ERROR X)))
2021-04-14T10:25:32Z flip214: also derived result type NIL here
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2021-04-14T10:27:22Z White_Flame: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2387#2387
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2021-04-14T10:27:56Z White_Flame: so the :true return value is leaking into the syntax-error derivation for some reason
2021-04-14T10:28:07Z White_Flame: might be a bug?
2021-04-14T10:28:18Z White_Flame: or is there legitimacy in that reasoning?
2021-04-14T10:28:59Z flip214:   Derived type: (FUNCTION (T) (VALUES (MEMBER :TRUE) &OPTIONAL))
2021-04-14T10:29:12Z phoe: what is your SBCL version and compiler policy?
2021-04-14T10:29:14Z phoe: I can't reproduce this
2021-04-14T10:29:35Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-04-14T10:29:40Z White_Flame: This is SBCL 2.1.3.50-e8b780650
2021-04-14T10:29:46Z phoe: 2.1.0 does not complain
2021-04-14T10:30:03Z phoe: let me upgrade to 2.1.3
2021-04-14T10:30:04Z flip214: White_Flame: the :TRUE is for (eq key :foo) - the error path doesn't return any value
2021-04-14T10:30:25Z White_Flame: flip214: it's saying that syntax-error returns :true
2021-04-14T10:30:36Z White_Flame: or am I reading it wrong?
2021-04-14T10:30:36Z flip214: how do you see that?
2021-04-14T10:30:49Z White_Flame: the complaint is for get-num's usage, when read-something's definition is present
2021-04-14T10:30:58Z flip214: I have no complaints from sbcl
2021-04-14T10:31:15Z phoe: flip214: what is your SBCL version?
2021-04-14T10:31:18Z flip214: 2.1.3
2021-04-14T10:31:33Z phoe: hmmmm, might be a new regression then?
2021-04-14T10:31:33Z White_Flame: annotated: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2387#2388
2021-04-14T10:31:39Z phoe: #sbcl will want to know about it in that case
2021-04-14T10:31:55Z White_Flame: ok
2021-04-14T10:32:20Z phoe: yes, that's invalid, SYNTAX-ERROR neither returns (member :true) nor is supposed to return a fixnum
2021-04-14T10:32:42Z phoe: so that's some heavy type confusion
2021-04-14T10:34:01Z phoe: oh wait, the FIXNUM is from the THE call
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2021-04-14T10:34:20Z phoe: OK, so it's just SYNTAX-ERROR having an incorrect type
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2021-04-14T10:54:00Z edgar-rft: where (the fixnum ... (error ...)) IMO is a buggy type declaration, because (error ...) is defined to return *no* values and therefore cannot be a fixnum
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2021-04-14T10:55:38Z flip214: edgar-rft: if it can't ever return, there cannot be a type conflict with the return value (because there is none)
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2021-04-14T10:58:19Z ebrasca: What are Deprecated Functions? ( http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/01_ha.htm )
2021-04-14T11:00:18Z phoe: edgar-rft: NIL is a subtype of FIXNUM
2021-04-14T11:01:18Z edgar-rft: ebrasca: functions that were marked as deprecated in 1994 but still exist in 2021
2021-04-14T11:01:31Z edgar-rft: phoe: true, thank you!
2021-04-14T11:01:49Z ebrasca: edgar-rft: Is it ok to use them?
2021-04-14T11:01:53Z phoe: ebrasca: yes
2021-04-14T11:02:10Z phoe: edgar-rft: also, "defined to return no values" would have a return type of (values)
2021-04-14T11:02:30Z phoe: a return type of NIL means elsething - that it does not return at all
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2021-04-14T11:03:20Z phoe: these two are highly distinct because a return type of (values) implies that the function is allowed to return at all in the general case
2021-04-14T11:03:55Z phoe: and you don't ever want #'ERROR (or #'INVOKE-DEBUGGER for the matter) to return at all
2021-04-14T11:03:56Z White_Flame: (good, that confirms my assumptions in reading these types)
2021-04-14T11:05:37Z edgar-rft: ebrasca: don't worry too much, in a hypothetical CL 2.0 standard (that is unlikely to happen) there might be a dicussion about that :-)
2021-04-14T11:06:13Z edgar-rft: White_Flame: sorry, I was wrong and phoe is right
2021-04-14T11:07:25Z phoe: function return types are real tricky
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2021-04-14T11:17:15Z ebrasca: What about CL 1.5 ?
2021-04-14T11:19:11Z jackdaniel: and if that's too much, what about CL 1.0.0.0.1?
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2021-04-14T11:20:39Z ebrasca: I was referencing Lisp 1.5
2021-04-14T11:21:02Z phoe: that's a blast from the past
2021-04-14T11:21:13Z edgar-rft: Lisp 1.5 was at least three decades before Common Lisp
2021-04-14T11:21:53Z ebrasca: I am sure if we make CL 1.5 we are going to have CL 2.0
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2021-04-14T11:23:18Z no-defun-allowed: Lisp was so good they never made Lisp 2: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LISP_2>
2021-04-14T11:26:39Z edgar-rft: Common Lisp is a Lisp-n, so it's far ahead of its time
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2021-04-14T11:29:51Z Xach: Lisp-nFinity
2021-04-14T11:30:21Z phoe: Lisp-#.(ackermann n n)
2021-04-14T11:30:50Z ebrasca: If CL is Lisp-n , why we don't have algol syntax?
2021-04-14T11:31:47Z no-defun-allowed: "Lisp 2" there refers to a hypothetical successor to the original Lisp (which never happened). Usually Lisp-n refers to the number of namespaces of things that the language manipulates.
2021-04-14T11:32:22Z no-defun-allowed: edgar-rft probably lost count of how many of such namespaces there are in Common Lisp, so wrote Lisp-n with a free variable.
2021-04-14T11:32:47Z phoe: there's also the fact that namespaces are user-definable, so n must be a free variable
2021-04-14T11:33:36Z ebrasca: Why someone need to define new namespaces?
2021-04-14T11:33:46Z edgar-rft: are there also proprietarily owned variables?
2021-04-14T11:33:57Z phoe: because they have new classes of things that need to be named
2021-04-14T11:34:08Z edgar-rft: or enslaved variables?
2021-04-14T11:34:15Z phoe: think of e.g. test suites, or test cases inside those test suites
2021-04-14T11:34:24Z phoe: or of ASDF systems
2021-04-14T11:34:26Z ebrasca: I don't understand.
2021-04-14T11:34:38Z phoe: (ql:quickload :alexandria)
2021-04-14T11:34:51Z phoe: :alexandria designates an ASDF system named "alexandria"
2021-04-14T11:34:57Z phoe: and "alexandria" is a name in the ASDF system namespace
2021-04-14T11:35:03Z phoe: that, obviously, is not a part of the CL standard
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2021-04-14T11:35:25Z jackdaniel is collecting infinity conses
2021-04-14T11:35:26Z no-defun-allowed: edgar-rft: You are thinking of bound variables.
2021-04-14T11:35:37Z edgar-rft: :-)
2021-04-14T11:35:52Z no-defun-allowed: A crucial part of design-by-contract, where they are legally bound to certain terms and conditions of course.
2021-04-14T11:36:27Z phoe: CL variables can be unbound but not unbounded
2021-04-14T11:36:28Z ebrasca: How I can see this ASDF namespace?
2021-04-14T11:36:41Z phoe: ebrasca: the same way you can see other namespaces
2021-04-14T11:36:49Z ebrasca: How?
2021-04-14T11:37:03Z phoe: the simplest tools are asdf:find-system and asdf:defsystem
2021-04-14T11:37:17Z phoe: see the similarity to cl:find-package and cl:defpackage
2021-04-14T11:39:44Z edgar-rft: LIST-ALL-PACKAGES returns a list of all currently defined packages if that helps
2021-04-14T11:41:35Z phoe: seems like ASDF does not have a LIST-ALL-SYSTEMS function, hm
2021-04-14T11:41:41Z phoe: but this works, (let ((x '())) (asdf:map-systems (lambda (y) (push (asdf:component-name y) x))) x)
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2021-04-14T11:43:04Z ebrasca: I can have "asd" as function , variable , package , test case ...
2021-04-14T11:43:13Z phoe: sort of kind of
2021-04-14T11:43:24Z phoe: you can't have "asd" as a function because the function namespace is named by symbols
2021-04-14T11:43:27Z phoe: not strings
2021-04-14T11:43:49Z phoe: that's the difference: some namespaces have distinct name types
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2021-04-14T11:47:22Z Lycurgus: phoe, I was wondering about the price anomalies on your book
2021-04-14T11:47:33Z Cthulhux quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2021-04-14T11:48:03Z Lycurgus: (used, kindle costing more than new)
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2021-04-14T11:48:21Z phoe: Lycurgus: I am absolutely unaware of them and I cannot provide any reasoning beacuse of that
2021-04-14T11:48:30Z phoe: I'd need to ask Apress, and I can if you provide me with some data
2021-04-14T11:48:41Z Lycurgus: on amazon
2021-04-14T11:49:09Z phoe: from what I last checked, used likely cost more because they are sold by shops that are not in Amazon's direct shipping reach
2021-04-14T11:49:34Z ebrasca: phoe: Did you make a book?
2021-04-14T11:49:36Z phoe: which is weird because apress ships worldwide, but on the other hand resellers still exist and make money
2021-04-14T11:49:40Z phoe: minion: tell ebrasca about tclcs
2021-04-14T11:49:40Z minion: ebrasca: tclcs: The Common Lisp Condition System, https://www.apress.com/us/book/9781484261330
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2021-04-14T11:50:22Z Lycurgus: ah, thought something of that sort
2021-04-14T11:51:42Z phoe: Lycurgus: I have no idea about Kindle though! (I don't use it myself)
2021-04-14T11:52:08Z Lycurgus: it's basically just pdf for the amazon reader
2021-04-14T11:52:46Z Lycurgus: generally the kindle version is substantially less often less than half the hardcopy
2021-04-14T11:55:02Z Lycurgus: actually it might be epub or whatever
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2021-04-14T12:19:49Z nij: Good morning! I have a lisp file to be run automatically. However, on some machine I don't have certain package, so the symbol PACKAGE:FUN1 may cause an error even at READ time. A workaround is to use (funcall (find-symbol "fun1" "PACKAGE")) instead.. but that means I have to change all of PACKAGE:FUN1 to that long stuff.. is there any better workaround?
2021-04-14T12:20:57Z phoe: wait a second, if you don't have package named PACKAGE then FIND-SYMBOL will signal an error anyway
2021-04-14T12:21:02Z phoe: except at runtime
2021-04-14T12:22:24Z nij: Oh, I did put that into a (when (ignore-errors (ql:quickload :PACKAGE)) [here])
2021-04-14T12:22:39Z phoe: the bug is that you actually use ignore-errors
2021-04-14T12:23:00Z phoe: the system is not loaded until runtime, so you do not have its symbols at read-time.
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2021-04-14T12:23:34Z phoe: quick and dirty workaround: at the top of your file, (eval-always (ql:quickload :package))
2021-04-14T12:23:47Z phoe: actual solution: use proper ASDF dependencies
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2021-04-14T12:24:16Z Bike: it sounded like nij wanted the code to not necessarily be dependent on the system
2021-04-14T12:24:22Z nij: for the second solution, i do expect on some machine there won't be PACKAGE
2021-04-14T12:24:25Z Bike: and asdf doesn't really do optional dependencies as far as i remember
2021-04-14T12:24:32Z phoe: oh, like that
2021-04-14T12:24:39Z phoe: then you need to conditionally quickload anyway
2021-04-14T12:24:49Z nij: (if has-package load! do-nothing!)
2021-04-14T12:24:50Z phoe: IGNORE-ERRORS kinda solves that issue but it's dirty
2021-04-14T12:25:06Z phoe: this sounds like a case for reader conditionals then
2021-04-14T12:25:20Z nij: (when (ignore-errors (ql:quickload :PACKAGE)) (package:fun1)) => ERROR!
2021-04-14T12:25:38Z phoe: yes, this is because the reader does not have the package PACKAGE at read-time
2021-04-14T12:25:42Z nij: Because it was trying to READ package:fun1 at READ time, which causes the problem.
2021-04-14T12:25:44Z nij: yes
2021-04-14T12:26:15Z nij: I have lots of package:fun1 in that file.. and changing them all to (find-symbol "fun1" "PACKAGE") seems a little bit dirty and ugly.
2021-04-14T12:26:31Z nij: (let alone funcall)
2021-04-14T12:26:38Z phoe: can you extract that into another file and only load it when the system in question is found?
2021-04-14T12:26:45Z phoe: since I think will be the easiest
2021-04-14T12:26:51Z phoe: s/will/that will/
2021-04-14T12:26:51Z nij: OH that could do!
2021-04-14T12:27:18Z nij: a bit less idealistic though..
2021-04-14T12:27:25Z nij: i hope the code and the condition is presented together
2021-04-14T12:27:33Z nij: I will do that if there's no better solution..
2021-04-14T12:27:55Z phoe: you could hack your way around using reader conditionals instead
2021-04-14T12:28:12Z nij: or should i write a macro that replaces any (package:fun1 body..) into (funcall (package:fun1 body..))?
2021-04-14T12:28:24Z phoe: you can't do it with a macro
2021-04-14T12:28:29Z phoe: macroexpansion time happens after read time
2021-04-14T12:28:46Z nij: oh yes.. duh
2021-04-14T12:29:10Z daphnis: what is a way to avoid repetition in cond, when all tests are, say, whether the same value is a member of various lists?
2021-04-14T12:29:25Z phoe: ugly stuff like #+#.(when (asdf:find-system :foo) '(and) '(or)) could possibly work
2021-04-14T12:29:32Z phoe: daphnis: alexandria:switch with a custom test
2021-04-14T12:32:55Z phoe: !!!
2021-04-14T12:33:03Z phoe: I just found a bug in alexandria:switch
2021-04-14T12:33:18Z jackdaniel: witch!
2021-04-14T12:33:42Z daphnis: phoe: thanks
2021-04-14T12:33:50Z nij: !!!
2021-04-14T12:33:53Z phoe: daphnis: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2389#2389
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2021-04-14T12:34:15Z phoe: try to replace the lambda with (alexandria:rcurry #'member :test #'equal) and watch the world burn.
2021-04-14T12:34:39Z nij: I tried #+#.(ql:quickload :recording) t       => error!
2021-04-14T12:34:52Z phoe: nij: reader conditionals work differently
2021-04-14T12:34:54Z nij: (no :RECORDING is there)
2021-04-14T12:35:32Z nij: Oh I see.
2021-04-14T12:36:46Z nij: #+#.(when (asdf:find-system :foo) '(and) '(or))  => error!
2021-04-14T12:37:15Z jackdaniel: does alexandria claim that test is evaluated?
2021-04-14T12:38:20Z phoe: unspecified
2021-04-14T12:39:19Z jackdaniel: defaulting to (quote eql) certainly makes such impression though
2021-04-14T12:39:32Z phoe: it only supports extracting QUOTE and FUNCTION via manual intervention
2021-04-14T12:39:39Z phoe: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/alexandria/alexandria/-/blob/master/alexandria-1/control-flow.lisp#L3-9
2021-04-14T12:40:08Z phoe: why would it do that instead of doing an explicit ONCE-ONLY on the test and then FUNCALLing it though?
2021-04-14T12:41:10Z jackdaniel: funcalling things may have a certain performance penalty
2021-04-14T12:41:31Z jackdaniel: because not-sufficiently-smart-compiler will resolve the function at runtime
2021-04-14T12:42:05Z phoe: in this case, alexandria:switch could be smart and only resolve to FUNCALL if the test is a list whose CAR is neither QUOTE nor FUNCTION
2021-04-14T12:42:06Z jackdaniel: that said this probably should be smarter, like: atom - return spec, cons and (quite function) - extract, just cons - evaluate
2021-04-14T12:42:22Z jackdaniel: sure, I'm just guessing why it is written the way it is
2021-04-14T12:42:24Z phoe: yes
2021-04-14T12:42:35Z jackdaniel: lunch came, later \o
2021-04-14T12:42:45Z phoe: cya
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2021-04-14T12:52:44Z nij: What's the cleanest way to alias #'f to #'g?
2021-04-14T12:53:04Z Bike: (setf (fdefinition 'f) (fdefinition 'g))
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2021-04-14T12:54:29Z nij: hmm.. error: G is undefined
2021-04-14T12:55:27Z Bike: er, did i misunderstand the direction, here?
2021-04-14T12:55:38Z _death: (rotatef (cadr form) (caddr form))
2021-04-14T12:55:41Z Bike: do you want to make F an alias for an existing G function, or the other way around?
2021-04-14T12:55:58Z nij: oh the other way around works.. my english is the bug
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2021-04-14T13:09:08Z nij: Hmm.. can I connect to a swank/slynk server from a running sbcl repl?
2021-04-14T13:09:37Z nij: Normally we have to go to emacs and `M-x sly-connect`.. but sometimes I want to hop into a server in a living repl.
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2021-04-14T13:10:27Z Bike: i don't understand
2021-04-14T13:10:41Z Bike: it's emacs that connects to swank/slynk. sbcl _runs_ a swank/slynk server
2021-04-14T13:11:11Z nij: yes.. say we have two sbcl repls. r1 and r2.
2021-04-14T13:11:30Z nij: In r1 I launch a swank server. I want to connect to it in r2..
2021-04-14T13:11:57Z Bike: i mean it's emacs/slime/whatever it is for slynk that does the connection
2021-04-14T13:12:06Z Bike: that is an emacs program. it is not a lisp program. it doesn't run in sbcl
2021-04-14T13:12:15Z Bike: i don't think there is a lisp version of the client
2021-04-14T13:13:07Z nij: i see :(
2021-04-14T13:13:28Z Bike: i mean, it woudl be weird conceptually, right? it's not like an sbcl repl is a text editor
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2021-04-14T13:14:21Z _death: well, it could be useful.. with climacs or whatever
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2021-04-14T13:14:33Z Alfr: nij, as a work around, you could securely forward the port swank/slynk listens on to a machine where you have emacs.
2021-04-14T13:14:35Z nij: For an sbcl to subsume shell.. I think this is needed?
2021-04-14T13:15:05Z Bike: well a shell is still not a text editor
2021-04-14T13:15:16Z Bike: maybe i don't understand what you mean
2021-04-14T13:15:54Z nij: i just hope that we can control one repl from another repl
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2021-04-14T13:16:35Z _death: in fact looks like someone already did some work https://github.com/lem-project/lem/blob/master/modes/lisp-mode/swank-protocol.lisp
2021-04-14T13:16:36Z Bike: you could set up your own socket code to do so, though i'm not immediately sure of the point
2021-04-14T13:17:00Z Bike: man, there are kind of a lot of lisp editor projects, aren't there
2021-04-14T13:17:57Z Bike: but the slime/swank protocol is set up for editors so a lot of it won't make sense where you have a repl instead of an editor
2021-04-14T13:18:00Z beach: But don't they all do roughly the same thing?
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2021-04-14T13:18:12Z Bike: the editors? sure, i guess, they edit
2021-04-14T13:18:31Z beach: They "just" edit.
2021-04-14T13:19:42Z Bike: i haven't used lem so i don't know what features it does or doesn't have
2021-04-14T13:19:55Z Alfr: ... on their own and spit out what you wish for? I still waiting for that one. :D
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2021-04-14T13:20:10Z Alfr: s/I/I'm/
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2021-04-14T13:23:31Z phoe: Bike: there is
2021-04-14T13:23:40Z phoe: https://github.com/brown/swank-client/
2021-04-14T13:23:56Z Bike: alright then. there you go, nij
2021-04-14T13:24:07Z phoe: along with swank-crew and lfarm for better distributed protocol
2021-04-14T13:24:11Z phoe: s/protocol/computing/
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2021-04-14T13:24:30Z phoe: you can use the swank protocol for CL↔CL communication just fine this way
2021-04-14T13:25:08Z Bike: using an editor protocol for rpc seems like overkill to me. i guess it's easier than developing a smaller protocol and convincing people to implement it
2021-04-14T13:25:39Z nij is in search of a slynk-client
2021-04-14T13:26:03Z phoe: it avoids the NIH syndrome - there is already a battle-tested protocol and a battle-tested server, so why not
2021-04-14T13:27:14Z jackdaniel: there was a clim implementation of this protocol (for climacs) - afair its name was "SWINE" ^_^
2021-04-14T13:29:24Z no-defun-allowed: Does it run in Wine? Then can I debug that combination from a lispm on EINE?
2021-04-14T13:29:45Z jackdaniel: sure it does
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2021-04-14T13:31:30Z nij: im afraid there's no slynk equivalent of swank-client.
2021-04-14T13:31:36Z nij: jeez time to learn swank :D :D
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2021-04-14T13:32:06Z phoe: actually
2021-04-14T13:32:16Z phoe: https://github.com/joaotavora/sly/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md#swank-is-now-called-slynk
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2021-04-14T13:32:51Z phoe: sly speaks the swank protocol
2021-04-14T13:32:59Z phoe: and swank-client is explicitly mentioned there
2021-04-14T13:33:05Z phoe: which is good news for you
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2021-04-14T13:34:10Z nij: OH great. Lemme see :-D
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2021-04-14T14:26:47Z attila_lendvai: any ASDF experts? i'd like to avoid perform'ing an operation if the output file exists (i.e. regardless of the modification time). any hints? overriding operation-done-p seems to be not enough.
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2021-04-14T14:33:04Z flip214: sorry, I can only offer an opposite hint - if you want to rebuild always, (on linux) you can use a dependency like /proc/stat which is always "current"
2021-04-14T14:33:15Z flip214: attila_lendvai: can you compare the output file's timestamp to itself?
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2021-04-14T14:34:25Z attila_lendvai: flip214, my issue is that i don't know what part of ASDF i should hook into. op-done-p is not even called if the input file's mod time is earlier
2021-04-14T14:35:16Z flip214: can you make input file == output file?
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2021-04-14T15:19:20Z daphnis: how do i turn '((a b) (c d)) into '(a b c d)?
2021-04-14T15:19:51Z beach: daphnis: (reduce #'append '((a b) (c d)) :from-end t)
2021-04-14T15:21:44Z phoe: or (a:mappend #'identity '((a b) (c d)))
2021-04-14T15:21:52Z phoe: but that's only because I like mappend
2021-04-14T15:22:31Z phoe: Xach: nikodemus replied! I'll make a private fork first, submit some PRs, and then request him to transfer the repository over to sharplispers
2021-04-14T15:22:50Z beach: phoe: How is mappend implemented?
2021-04-14T15:23:14Z phoe: beach: (loop for results in (apply #'mapcar function lists) append results)
2021-04-14T15:23:42Z beach: That will work.
2021-04-14T15:23:49Z phoe: I assume that LOOP APPEND is smart enough to do :from-end t automatically for optimization
2021-04-14T15:23:53Z beach: yeah.
2021-04-14T15:23:59Z beach: Pretty sure.
2021-04-14T15:24:35Z phoe: _death: I see you have some screamer changes that have not been mainstreamed, should I take a look at them?
2021-04-14T15:25:53Z daphnis: beach: thanks!
2021-04-14T15:25:59Z beach: Pleasure.
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2021-04-14T15:30:15Z daphnis: from-end is faster?
2021-04-14T15:30:47Z phoe: yes
2021-04-14T15:30:57Z beach: If you don't to :FROM-END T then you have a quadratic algorithm.
2021-04-14T15:31:03Z phoe: it conses O(n) conses rather than O(n²)--- yes
2021-04-14T15:31:44Z splittist: phoe: if you're reaching for alexandria, why not a:flatten ? (:
2021-04-14T15:31:47Z phoe: note that if your lists are fresh and mutable rather than literal/quoted/immutable, you can NCONC them instead of APPENDing, and you'll cons nothing
2021-04-14T15:32:03Z phoe: splittist: will break in case of nested lists since it'll flatten them all
2021-04-14T15:32:10Z phoe: I got bitten by that once
2021-04-14T15:32:27Z beach: phoe: yes, but without :from-end t, you still have to traverse a quadratic number of times.
2021-04-14T15:32:43Z phoe: beach: oh right, it'll be both O(n²) space and memory
2021-04-14T15:33:05Z phoe: or rather, the latter will be reclaimable by the GC because the intermediate conses will be collectable
2021-04-14T15:33:10Z phoe: but still, this produces GC pressure
2021-04-14T15:33:35Z beach is lost.  But that could be because of the time of day.
2021-04-14T15:33:43Z phoe: don't mind me
2021-04-14T15:33:44Z beach: "space and memory"?
2021-04-14T15:33:54Z phoe: time and memory, sorry
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2021-04-14T15:34:58Z beach: So APPEND without :FROM-END T is quadratic in consing and traversal.  NCONC without :FROM-END T is quadratic in traversal only.
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2021-04-14T15:36:17Z phoe: oh right! I was thinking APPLY rather than REDUCE, you're right
2021-04-14T15:36:29Z phoe: REDUCE will work better.
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2021-04-14T15:47:52Z _death: phoe: yeah, I think they make sense
2021-04-14T15:48:33Z phoe: I see that nikodemus just reverted the SBCL change because it broke on clisp for whatever reason
2021-04-14T15:48:43Z phoe: the one with redefinition warnings
2021-04-14T15:49:01Z phoe: wouldn't it make more sense to prevent duplicate definitions from being generated in the first place?
2021-04-14T15:49:04Z phoe: (if possible)
2021-04-14T15:52:59Z _death: it's always possible, but would not be worthwhile in this case
2021-04-14T15:54:06Z phoe: we depend on implementation-defined behavior if we actually do generate multiple definitions
2021-04-14T15:54:20Z phoe: this can sort of work, but also is a portability quirk
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2021-04-14T15:56:16Z _death: screamer has a good reason for redefining them (when it realizes they are nondeterministic as they call nondeterministic functions that are defined later)
2021-04-14T15:56:50Z phoe: yes, I see
2021-04-14T15:56:51Z _death: iirc it's not implementation-defined behavior.. check the clhs reference I gave
2021-04-14T15:58:03Z _death: I don't know how it breaks on clisp (I've not checked it)
2021-04-14T15:58:06Z phoe: it's unspecified - CLHS defines that as "unpredictable but harmless"
2021-04-14T15:58:34Z _death: clhs 3.2.2.3
2021-04-14T15:58:35Z specbot: Semantic Constraints: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_bbc.htm
2021-04-14T15:58:45Z phoe: and that implementations are permitted to specify the consequences, and that portable code must not depend on the results or effects of that situation
2021-04-14T15:59:00Z phoe: "The consequences are unspecified if functions are redefined individually at run time or multiply defined in the same file."
2021-04-14T15:59:32Z phoe: I kinda wonder what "harmless" means in this concrete context
2021-04-14T16:00:45Z phoe: since they are also "unpredictable", so in theory two DEFUN FOO in one file can cause... yes, what exactly is permitted?
2021-04-14T16:01:08Z _death: where is the word "harmless"?
2021-04-14T16:01:19Z phoe: clhs 1.4.2
2021-04-14T16:01:19Z specbot: Error Terminology: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/01_db.htm
2021-04-14T16:01:21Z _death: in the definition of "unspecified"?
2021-04-14T16:01:24Z phoe: "The consequences are unspecified"
2021-04-14T16:01:53Z Bike: this seems like kind of a vague definition.
2021-04-14T16:02:25Z phoe: sure it is, because when we have two DEFUN FOOs in a row then what exactly does it mean that it's "unpredictable" to have stuff like that
2021-04-14T16:03:00Z phoe: because unpredictability itself in such a case is anything but harmless if e.g. we completely skip the second DEFUN FOO
2021-04-14T16:03:28Z phoe: which, naïvely looking, seems to be permitted?
2021-04-14T16:03:49Z _death: I don't remember what prompted me to make that change.. possibly an SBCL warning
2021-04-14T16:04:03Z phoe: I think so, yes, SBCL complains about multiple definitions
2021-04-14T16:04:28Z phoe: it produces full warnings for that
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2021-04-14T16:05:12Z _death: and why does clisp fail?
2021-04-14T16:05:22Z MetaYan_: jackdaniel: I just noticed that you were asking for my opinion about something earlier today, but even after reading the backlog, I still can't figure out what about...
2021-04-14T16:05:27Z _death: (with my change.. presumably it doesn't fail so hard without?)
2021-04-14T16:05:37Z phoe: _death: I have no idea! nikodemus will know
2021-04-14T16:05:54Z phoe: all I know is https://github.com/nikodemus/screamer/pull/20
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2021-04-14T16:06:33Z phoe: perhaps it's because the HANDLER-BIND-wrapped DEFUN is no longer toplevel
2021-04-14T16:07:07Z phoe: which shouldn't really matter, because of the EVAL-ALWAYS... huh
2021-04-14T16:08:41Z _death: ok, I tried loading it with clisp
2021-04-14T16:08:48Z _death: @3728>: there is no package with name #1="SB-EXT"
2021-04-14T16:09:05Z _death: but that may be from another commit
2021-04-14T16:09:10Z phoe: wait, sb-ext? where
2021-04-14T16:09:15Z phoe: yes, must be some other commit
2021-04-14T16:09:43Z _death: yeah, another of my commits.. I'll conditionalize on #+sbcl for now
2021-04-14T16:09:48Z phoe: oh, yes, I see it now
2021-04-14T16:10:10Z _death: otherwise, it loads successfully
2021-04-14T16:10:30Z phoe: I asked for the concrete compilation error in the PR
2021-04-14T16:10:48Z _death: it wants stefil for the tests.. hmm
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2021-04-14T16:11:51Z _death: test-screamer returns T
2021-04-14T16:12:35Z _death: hopefully nikodemus will elaborate
2021-04-14T16:12:41Z phoe: yes
2021-04-14T16:16:33Z _death: not sure the tests cover that code.. I have some screamer code, but may or may not load on clisp without effort
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2021-04-14T16:18:23Z _death: eh, clisp backtraces look crappy with slime.. and no frame-source-location implementation
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2021-04-14T16:31:22Z _death: ok, some of my aoc2020 code that uses screamer fails on clisp, because screamer's walker does not support MACROLET
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2021-04-14T16:34:34Z _death: and clisp's LOOP expands to that.. so I'm not sure screamer is very useful on clisp :)
2021-04-14T16:35:59Z phoe: gasp
2021-04-14T16:36:16Z phoe: make an issue mayhaps!
2021-04-14T16:36:38Z _death: nah, I don't use clisp nowadays so it's not an issue for me
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2021-04-14T16:38:29Z _death: are you planning on using screamer btw?
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2021-04-14T16:39:06Z phoe: a little bit; I plan on giving it some maintenance in order to get the official blessing to move the repo to sharplispers
2021-04-14T16:39:24Z phoe: and I've been curious about it for a long time, so that's also a chance to get to know it in depth
2021-04-14T16:39:39Z _death: cool
2021-04-14T16:40:29Z Shinmera: There's also https://shinmera.github.io/classowary for a linear constraint solver alternative. :)
2021-04-14T16:41:03Z Shinmera: It's definitely less fancy than Screamer though
2021-04-14T16:41:28Z _death: cool, I also have a pulp-like thing
2021-04-14T16:41:40Z phoe: Shinmera: it certainly seems capable of screaming though
2021-04-14T16:41:41Z phoe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dcQO6Zb8Eg
2021-04-14T16:42:13Z Shinmera: At least I can guarantee Classowary works well, since I use it quite a bit in my Alloy layouts.
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2021-04-14T16:42:50Z _death: that looks like https://gist.github.com/death/9b1be6ce8b34eb771c1d2ba6ef28210f
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2021-04-14T16:45:27Z Shinmera: https://github.com/Shinmera/kandria/blob/master/ui/dialog.lisp#L29-L33
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2021-04-14T16:58:30Z _death: phoe: another thing about screamer, I remember they warn about using stuff like DOLIST/DOTIMES in nondeterministic functions, because it may not establish a new binding on each iteration (it's implementation-defined).. but since they shadow CL symbols like DEFUN, why not also shadow DOLIST and friends to provide just that?.. I've not tried it
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2021-04-14T16:58:55Z phoe: _death: that can work and should be a simple transform, please make an issue
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2021-04-14T16:59:57Z _death: phoe: I don't like posting issues :).. to me an issue is a call for action on the maintainer, and I prefer my calls for action to be in the form of pull requests
2021-04-14T17:00:35Z phoe: _death: since it seems that I'll be maintaining screamer in the future - please do so
2021-04-14T17:01:05Z phoe: (and you can explicitly mention that in the issue text if that makes you feel a little bit better)
2021-04-14T17:01:07Z _death: phoe: you may do it yourself, if you're interested ;)
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2021-04-14T17:02:25Z phoe: _death: ...I actually started looking at the docs and I cannot find them there
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2021-04-14T17:02:34Z phoe: like, dolist or dotimes
2021-04-14T17:02:49Z phoe: http://nikodemus.github.io/screamer/ does not mention dolist or dotimes or the term "binding"
2021-04-14T17:03:20Z _death: phoe: that's just what nikodemus wrote.. the original docs are in the papers directory
2021-04-14T17:04:08Z phoe: grepping the papers directory shows nothing, either
2021-04-14T17:04:34Z _death: check screamer.pdf
2021-04-14T17:04:35Z phoe: oooh, it is in the PDF file.
2021-04-14T17:04:39Z phoe: grepping doesn't find that.
2021-04-14T17:07:01Z phoe: and transforming DO macros is going to be simple but I don't think I'll want to make a LOOP wrapper
2021-04-14T17:07:42Z _death: right.. LOOP is a no-no too, but it's still useful in deterministic functions..
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2021-04-14T17:18:08Z Brucio-43 test
2021-04-14T17:18:17Z phoe: test successful
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2021-04-14T17:23:02Z Shinmera: or not.
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2021-04-14T17:51:30Z fe[nl]ix: phoe: we can certainly move it to sharplispers
2021-04-14T17:51:48Z fe[nl]ix: it would be nice if Nikodemus started that instead of forking
2021-04-14T17:55:27Z _death: there's also screamer+, though the code there likely needs some work..
2021-04-14T17:56:14Z mfiano: Wasn't there a screamer extensions repository with a questionable license, perhaps not by the same author?
2021-04-14T17:58:28Z _death: yeah, it has a "You may not distribute the code without prior consent from me.".. I'm guessing 20 years later, someone could ask the author to relicense
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2021-04-14T17:59:01Z mfiano: https://github.com/danlentz/screamer-plus
2021-04-14T17:59:12Z mfiano: I guess questionable in that it has none?
2021-04-14T17:59:42Z _death: mfiano: see comment in screamer-plus.lisp
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2021-04-14T18:00:40Z mfiano: Eww, custom license.
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2021-04-14T18:35:31Z phoe: fe[nl]ix: I got a mail from Nikodemus - he'll gladly move it himself once some fixes with PRs are submitted to the original repo
2021-04-14T18:36:22Z phoe: and I'll try doing just that
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2021-04-14T19:03:32Z attila_lendvai: luis, ping. would you mind if we made cffi get captured by quicklisp by a moving tag instead of the tarball from cl.net? i.e. tagged-git https://github.com/cffi/cffi.git stable
2021-04-14T19:04:10Z attila_lendvai: luis, that would make it more flexible for us to designate which state ql should capture... just move a tag, instead of releasing...
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2021-04-14T19:24:36Z fe[nl]ix: phoe: very nice
2021-04-14T19:24:54Z fe[nl]ix: attila_lendvai: what's the benefit ?
2021-04-14T19:26:08Z attila_lendvai: fe[nl]ix, anyone who has the git commit bit can designate what should go into ql. moving a tag is much less work than releasing, and maybe you don't want to release, yet you want ql to get some patches.
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2021-04-14T19:27:09Z attila_lendvai: another benefit is that ql can capture the sources even if cl.net is down (assuming that github.com will better survive any upcoming internet split)
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2021-04-14T19:28:18Z Odin-: attila_lendvai: I'd guess that depends on whether you end up on the Apple or Facebook side.
2021-04-14T19:28:23Z Odin-: :p
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2021-04-14T19:30:13Z attila_lendvai: Odin-, i'm more worried about politicians screwing us up with their geopolitical nonsense...
2021-04-14T19:31:10Z attila_lendvai: bonus reason: git is a much better versioning tool than named tarballs on random servers...
2021-04-14T19:32:10Z Odin-: attila_lendvai: Those are all 'soft' splits, and most of the ones that are likely to happen based on the geopolitics are already in place.
2021-04-14T19:32:51Z Odin-: Unless you're expecting a successful nazi movement in the US next round..?
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2021-04-14T19:37:33Z Shinmera: this is definitely not the place to discuss politics.
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2021-04-14T20:13:39Z copec: Is there a standard name for an initialization function that people like to group everything under for some package?
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2021-04-14T20:19:19Z phoe: clhs initialize-instance
2021-04-14T20:19:19Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_init_i.htm
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2021-04-14T20:19:45Z phoe: people like adding constructor stuffs as :before and :after methods for that GF
2021-04-14T20:19:54Z phoe: mostly :after
2021-04-14T20:20:06Z phoe: or do you mean something else?
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2021-04-14T20:26:58Z copec: I read in S-exp from a config file into clos objects, and have a function that does it
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2021-04-14T20:28:26Z copec: I could just (function-name) under a commented init section, but I was wondering if there was a defacto standard, like to make an (init) function or something
2021-04-14T20:28:29Z copec: and group everything under that
2021-04-14T20:32:46Z asarch: What is a "generator"?
2021-04-14T20:33:15Z Bike: that term refers to many different things in many different contexts
2021-04-14T20:33:23Z Bike: do you have one in min
2021-04-14T20:33:24Z Bike: d
2021-04-14T20:34:42Z asarch: As a result of a query from a DB cluster?
2021-04-14T20:36:02Z Bike: it might mean a closure with state that returns a new value from an iteration every time you call it
2021-04-14T20:36:10Z Bike: but that is a guess based on little information
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2021-04-14T20:43:56Z asarch: Where could I learn more about it?
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2021-04-14T20:44:12Z Bike: i don't know? the documentation of whatever system you're getting this thing from, probably?
2021-04-14T20:46:02Z asarch: I see
2021-04-14T20:46:18Z asarch: Thank you Bike! Thank you very much! :-)
2021-04-14T20:46:24Z asarch: Have a nice day!
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2021-04-14T20:50:16Z Alfr: I think w-h-t-i has a nice example for generators in that sense, Bike.
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2021-04-14T22:43:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: flip214: maybe I should contact him directly, I'd like to pull  things like author/title/etc.
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2021-04-14T22:43:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: The last time I tried, I also ran into issues with PDF spec versions, I think
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2021-04-15T02:56:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think screamer-plus's github repo there might be a license violation :)
2021-04-15T02:57:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: The email in the license note is for Simon White e
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2021-04-15T03:02:58Z Nilby: Yes. Also the "You may not distribute the code" part.
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2021-04-15T03:07:51Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-04-15T03:09:45Z Nilby: Good morning.
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2021-04-15T06:12:49Z flip214: fiddlerwoaroof: https://github.com/mbattyani/cl-pdf/issues/27
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2021-04-15T07:10:19Z lukego: I was a good boy and write some unit tests but I'm already deleting them all because they are not worth the effort to maintain.
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2021-04-15T08:07:43Z splittist: lukego: If I'm writing to a spec, or in the last throws of writing (or, at least, working out) a spec, then I find unit(?) tests to be useful. But if I'm 'exploring the design space' (i.e. coding without knowing what I'm doing) then I do find them a boat anchor rather than a sanity check.
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2021-04-15T08:12:16Z lukego: splittist: I think that in this case I wrote some really basic unit tests as scaffolding to get some low-level routines working for the first time. but now I don't need it much because I've written other code that exercises these routines pretty thoroughly and I can just run that to get test coverage.
2021-04-15T08:13:12Z lukego: so it seems like my test suite will just try to exercise lots of relevant code paths and then I'll need to have enough "design by contract" style instrumentation to be able to catch and debug errors when/where they occur
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2021-04-15T08:14:24Z jackdaniel: I call it bravery! ;-)
2021-04-15T08:15:04Z jackdaniel: but tests are a drag (although a very useful one)
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2021-04-15T08:16:24Z lukego: (my case might also be special in that these are routines for importing data in a specific file format and it only takes three and a half seconds to import all such data that actually exists... so I don't really need to be prepared for inputs that aren't included in the test suite)
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2021-04-15T12:55:46Z shka_: hi all
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2021-04-15T12:59:07Z attila_lendvai: is quicklisp automatically hooking into ASDF by default to download any missing systems? if not, is there a simple way to enable that?
2021-04-15T13:04:58Z shka_: attila_lendvai: you are asking because a system does not load or what?
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2021-04-15T13:07:59Z jmercouris: any way to a suppress "WARNING: redefining XYZ"
2021-04-15T13:08:07Z jmercouris: when I know that I am explicitly wishing to redfine something?
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2021-04-15T13:09:33Z Xach: attila_lendvai: it only hooks in when using quickload
2021-04-15T13:09:44Z Xach: that establishes a handler for the system-not-found error
2021-04-15T13:09:55Z attila_lendvai: shka_, i'm changing code (hu.dwim.asdf) and i don't want to regress it, and it's not trivial for me to test it right now.
2021-04-15T13:10:50Z attila_lendvai: Xach, thank you for clarifying it! do you have any plans of adding/supporting a find system hook ala the discussion under one of the :defsystem-depends-on issue?
2021-04-15T13:10:58Z Xach: No plans
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2021-04-15T13:11:50Z attila_lendvai: Xach, the reson is that sometimes it's much more convenient to sideffect the image at one point, and just fire the macinery, as opposed to messing at random different places to (optionally) use quickload when available...
2021-04-15T13:13:28Z phoe: jmercouris: you can try to unbind it first
2021-04-15T13:13:30Z attila_lendvai: Xach, i've written several build.sh scripts now that uses ql (thanks a whole lot BTW!). some of them optionally using ql when available, otherwise relying on the user's config. some others override the user's config and do (quasi-)reproducible builds.
2021-04-15T13:13:30Z Xach: Ok
2021-04-15T13:13:38Z jmercouris: phoe: true
2021-04-15T13:13:43Z phoe: so makunbound for symbols, fmakunbound for functions, setf find-class nil for classes, ...
2021-04-15T13:13:47Z jmercouris: I was hoping for some (declare ...) magic
2021-04-15T13:13:57Z jmercouris: maybe I can write a macro...
2021-04-15T13:14:13Z jmercouris: how about generic functions same as fmakunbound?
2021-04-15T13:14:27Z phoe: GFs are bound in the function namespace, so yes
2021-04-15T13:14:31Z jmercouris: OK
2021-04-15T13:14:32Z phoe: they're functions
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2021-04-15T13:14:42Z jmercouris: hai
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2021-04-15T13:17:33Z ldb: good evening
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2021-04-15T13:19:12Z pp: hi
2021-04-15T13:19:21Z pp: what is best lisp?
2021-04-15T13:19:27Z Xach: pp: common
2021-04-15T13:19:32Z ldb: not common
2021-04-15T13:19:44Z pp: interesting...
2021-04-15T13:20:28Z phoe: maybe the real best lisp is the friends we make along the way
2021-04-15T13:20:45Z phoe: but, anyway!
2021-04-15T13:21:06Z phoe: pp: #lisp is a Common Lisp channel, you could possibly try ##lisp for a channel for all dialects
2021-04-15T13:21:28Z pp: ok!
2021-04-15T13:22:17Z pp: do any of you use scrotwm?
2021-04-15T13:23:22Z phoe: oh
2021-04-15T13:23:32Z phoe: I think I understand now
2021-04-15T13:23:40Z ChanServ has set mode +o phoe
2021-04-15T13:23:43Z phoe has set mode +b *!*600578fa@96.5.120.*
2021-04-15T13:23:43Z pp [~phoe@2001:19f0:5:689f:5400:2ff:fe77:b1de] has been kicked from #lisp by phoe (pp)
2021-04-15T13:23:46Z ChanServ has set mode -o phoe
2021-04-15T13:24:24Z ldb: https://forum.ubuntu-fi.org/index.php?topic=43042.0
2021-04-15T13:25:03Z ldb: well, it reminds me the joke about Coq
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2021-04-15T13:25:59Z phoe: which is likely the reason they're discussing changing the name
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2021-04-15T13:31:31Z ldb: is it possible to get the file list under a dir via http?
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2021-04-15T13:33:37Z ldb: i'm looking for tools making a emacs elpa mirror via http.
2021-04-15T13:34:25Z luis: ldb: maybe #emacs can help
2021-04-15T13:34:40Z ldb: don't know what ql systems to use to write this thing in CL.
2021-04-15T13:34:58Z luis: ldb: drakma, possibly
2021-04-15T13:35:50Z ldb: luis: they uses an emacs lisp package, which doesn't support parallel download.
2021-04-15T13:36:33Z ldb: luis: thanks
2021-04-15T13:37:43Z ldb starts to learn http today
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2021-04-15T13:38:42Z luis: ldb: you will learn that plain HTTP has no standard way to list a directory
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2021-04-15T13:41:05Z ldb: we used to use rsync. recently for unknown reason the upstream rsync servies are down
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2021-04-15T14:11:32Z flip214: phoe: why did you kick? Asking about "A minimalistic tiling Window Manager for X11." is that bad?
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2021-04-15T14:11:58Z Bike: cos it looks like "scrotum"
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2021-04-15T14:12:27Z phoe: a person nicknamed peepee asking about a scrotum tripped my personal troll filter
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2021-04-15T14:13:15Z flip214: hmmm, I didn't have that sensitivity level
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2021-04-15T14:14:17Z phoe: maybe you're right though, I've had my own sensitivity levels put to some tests as of late
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2021-04-15T14:15:58Z Bike: oh, in fact they renamed it to spectrwm
2021-04-15T14:16:00Z Bike: in 2012.
2021-04-15T14:16:46Z phoe: good move
2021-04-15T14:16:56Z Bike: also it's written in C. weird. i guess pp could have been serious but talking about something weird.
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2021-04-15T14:30:04Z flip214: ah, stumpwm is the CL one
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2021-04-15T15:39:59Z Josh_2: Hey all
2021-04-15T15:40:09Z Josh_2: Is there a native lisp library I can use to resize images?
2021-04-15T15:40:23Z Josh_2: If not I will just call out to ffmpeg
2021-04-15T15:40:26Z tychoish: Hi Josh2
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2021-04-15T15:40:49Z beach: Maybe "opticl"?
2021-04-15T15:41:21Z tychoish: https://github.com/CodyReichert/awesome-cl#graphics I always just check lists like this
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2021-04-15T15:42:30Z Josh_2: I imagine I could do it with opticl
2021-04-15T15:43:01Z Josh_2: I can do it with opticl there is an example where they resize an image :)
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2021-04-15T15:46:03Z Josh_2: I doubt it can resize gifs though
2021-04-15T15:46:06Z Josh_2: ahh thats a bummer
2021-04-15T15:48:31Z Xach: Josh_2: when i was resizing a lot of images, i used run-program and imagemagick.
2021-04-15T15:48:37Z Xach: it worked fine for my scale.
2021-04-15T15:49:05Z Josh_2: Does imagemagick work with gifs?
2021-04-15T15:49:16Z Xach: Josh_2: yes
2021-04-15T15:49:17Z phoe: t
2021-04-15T15:49:24Z Josh_2: Did you use cl-magick?
2021-04-15T15:49:37Z Josh_2: or cl-imagemagick
2021-04-15T15:49:57Z Xach: No. I used run-program.
2021-04-15T15:50:08Z Josh_2: right you literally just wrote that xD
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2021-04-15T15:58:36Z Shinmera: There's also https://shinmera.github.io/trivial-thumbnail/ which uses im underneath
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2021-04-15T16:18:46Z contrapunctus: Would a native Lisp library for encoding/decoding media formats (e.g. FLAC, PNG, WebM) be of any help to the community? Or is preferable to wrap C libraries?
2021-04-15T16:19:54Z Xach: contrapunctus: opticl does a lot of that.
2021-04-15T16:20:22Z Xach: contrapunctus: i don't know how much is in pure lisp. pure lisp code for everything would be nice.
2021-04-15T16:22:28Z aeth: contrapunctus: it makes it easier to package programs
2021-04-15T16:22:37Z aeth: (when you don't use a C library, I mean)
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2021-04-15T16:27:23Z Shinmera: contrapunctus: FLAC and PNG already have native ones. WebM or any video format? Good fuckin' luck.
2021-04-15T16:29:12Z Shinmera: contrapunctus: I'd like a native decoder for OGG audio, (preferably decoding to UB8 arrays)
2021-04-15T16:29:39Z shka_: video formats are rather complex beasts
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2021-04-15T16:30:12Z shka_: and also have strict performance requirements which does not make life easier
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2021-04-15T16:31:59Z contrapunctus: Xach: I see. opticl doesn't seem to use any foreign libraries.
2021-04-15T16:31:59Z contrapunctus: aeth: I see.
2021-04-15T16:31:59Z contrapunctus: Shinmera: hm...I guess I could try that.
2021-04-15T16:34:54Z Shinmera: But yeah, ultimately the hard part isn't necessarily even the decoding, though that often is hard enough, it's also that theres' very strict performance requirements to be able to decode and play back in real time. Especially audio has very