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2021-04-01T00:12:56Z palter: That's really up to JCMa since he owns the Symbolics IP.
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2021-04-01T00:20:55Z caoliver: I know.  I can't imagine it's making much revenue for him though.
2021-04-01T00:21:56Z no-defun-allowed: What's the unit for lispm equivalency? I don't know the model numbers.
2021-04-01T00:23:44Z palter: The last Ivory hardware was the XL1200. I'm comparing against that.
2021-04-01T00:24:15Z caoliver: And your speed factor is a multiple of 1200?
2021-04-01T00:25:00Z no-defun-allowed: Right, thanks.
2021-04-01T00:26:04Z caoliver: Also modern boxes should have a hella more megawords.  I think my XL1201 had 8MW.
2021-04-01T00:26:37Z palter: The Ivory processor in the XL1200 ran at about 17MHz.
2021-04-01T00:27:27Z palter: We're still emulating a 32-bit processor. The default memory size in the emulator is 4095MW.
2021-04-01T00:27:45Z palter: (It's also the maximum)
2021-04-01T00:28:08Z palter: 1 Ivory word is 5 bytes (32 bits data, 8 bit tag)
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2021-04-01T00:29:11Z no-defun-allowed: How does that work out on some-power-of-two-bit machines?
2021-04-01T00:30:06Z palter: This is a freshly booted VLM on my Apple silicon Mac mini https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/iegttaDL/VLM.png
2021-04-01T00:30:56Z caoliver: Nifty.
2021-04-01T00:32:00Z caoliver: How do you have your keyboard mapped, or do you have an old 'bolix kbd interfaced to your mac?
2021-04-01T00:32:01Z palter: The emulator maps data to one area of memory and tags to another. So, if we were to somehow fill memory, it would be using 2^32 bytes for tags and 8^32. bytes for data.
2021-04-01T00:32:59Z palter: That would be 5GB
2021-04-01T00:33:00Z no-defun-allowed: Fair enough then.
2021-04-01T00:33:07Z caoliver: Splitting off the tags that way was probably the only sane thing to do.
2021-04-01T00:33:41Z palter: It is. The VLM world loads are actually store that way so we can mmap directly into memory.
2021-04-01T00:33:47Z caoliver: Eh?  4GB tags and 16GB data make 20GB I think.
2021-04-01T00:34:32Z palter: Right. It's 4GW * 5 bytes/word
2021-04-01T00:34:40Z no-defun-allowed: Is anything compiled to the register machine Genera runs on? Does that also split tags and data?
2021-04-01T00:35:03Z pjb: Unless you sort your data by tag.
2021-04-01T00:35:30Z pjb: For example, you can have only one tag per page.
2021-04-01T00:35:41Z caoliver: I suspect that has 40bit words directly.
2021-04-01T00:35:42Z palter: The stack cache is packed 1 Ivory word (tag+data) to one native word.
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2021-04-01T00:36:01Z caoliver: Much like the old DECs had 36 bit words.
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2021-04-01T00:36:20Z caoliver never used those.  Only PDP-11 series
2021-04-01T00:36:26Z palter: Ivory hardware actually has 48 bit words -- 32 bit data, 8 bit tag, 8 bit ECC
2021-04-01T00:36:45Z palter: Ah yes, the PDP-6 and PDP-10
2021-04-01T00:37:06Z palter: (Used to play Space War on the PDP-6 at the MIT AI Lab.)
2021-04-01T00:37:23Z caoliver: I did have some time on a heavily locked down VAX/VMS box in school, but that was no fun.
2021-04-01T00:37:44Z caoliver: I got off of that as soon as I could.
2021-04-01T00:37:50Z palter: And, for another 36 bit machine, there's Multics
2021-04-01T00:38:11Z palter: (GE 645, then Honeywell 6180 and DPS-8/M)
2021-04-01T00:38:18Z caoliver: Did you ever run across Tom Van Vleck?
2021-04-01T00:38:39Z palter: Worked with him at both MIT and Honeywell
2021-04-01T00:39:13Z palter: I spent about 10 years working on Multics split between MIT and Honeywell.
2021-04-01T00:39:21Z palter: Then 9 years at Symbolics until they shut down.
2021-04-01T00:39:22Z caoliver: Relative of his (Sally) lives near me, and her late husband and I started a small ISP back in the 90s.
2021-04-01T00:40:08Z caoliver: I'm not sure there's a good emu for Multics.
2021-04-01T00:40:28Z palter: Actually, there is one now.
2021-04-01T00:41:08Z caoliver: The only historical thing I have on my boxen is a Hercules instance running Michigan Terminal System.  I tossed that together to scare an old friend who went to UMich.
2021-04-01T00:41:14Z palter: See https://multicians.org/simulator.html
2021-04-01T00:41:48Z palter: Never used that
2021-04-01T00:42:00Z caoliver: Cool.  The more of these thing, the more we can corrupt the youth of Athens.  ;-P
2021-04-01T00:42:05Z caoliver: s/thing/things/
2021-04-01T00:42:09Z palter: (I've lived in Boston all my life. Started hacking in high school on an IBM 1130 in 1968)
2021-04-01T00:42:48Z palter: Guy Steele was one year behind me at school. I went to MIT and he went to Harvard.
2021-04-01T00:43:06Z caoliver: And now he lives in the belly of the beast.
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2021-04-01T00:49:02Z caoliver lives in Michigan, and really hasn't achieved escape velocity.
2021-04-01T00:52:35Z terpri: White_Flame, revivory is a great name. i called my cl-based ivory emulator mammoth :) but it can barely POST at the moment, not close to full functionality
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2021-04-01T00:54:17Z terpri: it's unfortunate that opengenera will presumably remain proprietary. some folks in #lispm were making good progress with CADR emulation (emulating newer versions than what was originally released), but the channel was locked without notice
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2021-04-01T01:02:24Z terpri: https://tumbleweed.nu/lm-3 <- CADR work (system 78 is usable and they're trying to get system 98 or 99 working; no idea how significant the differences between versions are though)
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2021-04-01T01:09:48Z White_Flame: terpri: one thing that I really like and got in early is the ability to call directly from CL into Ivory functions, but that's only sane when the emulation is paused
2021-04-01T01:10:07Z White_Flame: it would be nice to transition both ways, and get native CL stuff accessed from Genera as well
2021-04-01T01:11:53Z White_Flame: my net connection is being stupid right now so I hven't kept up with the conversation, but I tried the instructions from https://static.loomcom.com/genera/genera-install.html again, and was able to build VLM from source, which is really, really good for me to be able to continue now.  It hadn't worked in the past from source builds for me
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2021-04-01T01:23:56Z palter: That is, of course, the C emulator which is a transliteration of the Alpha native VLM source code to C. It has some interesting issues. (One I remember from a client's site is that either the calendar clock or microsecond clock runs about 3 times real speed. Don't remember which one. But, TCP timeouts were messed up by it.)
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2021-04-01T01:26:14Z palter: I would love to see Genera (and Open Genera and Portable Genera) released but JCMa hasn't answered my last email so I don't know why he won't.
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2021-04-01T01:27:02Z White_Flame: right, I'm not porting that VLM, I'm rewriting from first principles.  But it can give me an execution trace of what should be happening for reference, now that I can adjust its source and build
2021-04-01T01:27:15Z White_Flame: for a given test world
2021-04-01T01:28:03Z caoliver: JCMa is an interesting fellow to say the least.  The license surrounding his web server was ummm... interesting.
2021-04-01T01:28:52Z caoliver gets a dog in the manger feeling.
2021-04-01T01:29:44Z palter: White_Flame - If you want an instruction trace of booting a world, I still have one.
2021-04-01T01:29:51Z palter: (It's 3.3GB)
2021-04-01T01:30:06Z White_Flame: it has to be the exact same world as mine, so I'm going to make my own
2021-04-01T01:30:51Z White_Flame: no clue if the early boot stuff has changed much, though
2021-04-01T01:31:29Z palter: It's probably from a world named fixed7.vlod. (It's from July 2016)
2021-04-01T01:31:56Z White_Flame: but yeah, I want to verify how & where I diverge from VLM and blow up
2021-04-01T01:32:20Z palter: I know what you mean. That's how I debugged the Intel and ARM ports.
2021-04-01T01:32:25Z terpri: fun factoid: according to my reading of the standard license header, as of 2018, the US federal government could unilaterally relicense most of the genera source code if they wanted, presumably due to the level of public funding
2021-04-01T01:32:33Z White_Flame: I'm now using a Genera-8-5-xlib-patched.vlod
2021-04-01T01:32:53Z palter: What's the date on the world load?
2021-04-01T01:33:27Z White_Flame: where would I find that?
2021-04-01T01:33:32Z terpri: hard to say whether that's more or less likely than the copyright owner (john c. mallery?) relicensing it though
2021-04-01T01:33:47Z palter: Of course, once sequence breaks start, the trace will diverge.
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2021-04-01T01:35:04Z caoliver: terpri was this via darpa?
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2021-04-01T01:39:52Z palter: This is the clause from the copyright notice that terpri was referencing. https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/TXUEulOs/
2021-04-01T01:41:06Z terpri: caoliver, not sure if it's DARPA per se, but the clause refers to the National Reconnonaissance Office
2021-04-01T01:41:12Z caoliver: I just wondered about how the public funding came about.  I was always a little miffed that RSA wasn't broadly available for public use given that taxpayers (via the Navy) funding the development.
2021-04-01T01:41:19Z terpri: Reconnaissance*
2021-04-01T01:41:46Z terpri: and https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/48/252.227-7014#b_2 is the relevant law, i believe
2021-04-01T01:41:47Z caoliver got a copy of TM-82 when he was in high school.
2021-04-01T01:42:31Z caoliver: Not that I was any sort of genius (I'm most certainly not), but the Martin Gardner article piqued my interest.
2021-04-01T01:43:24Z terpri: "Government purpose rights shall remain in effect for a period of five years unless a different period has been negotiated." symbolics apparently negotiated something like a *thirty year* restriction :p
2021-04-01T01:44:09Z caoliver: Evidently prior to 1991.
2021-04-01T01:44:12Z palter: This one is a bit more up-to-date I think. (Note the expiration date) https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/6pYRUnLn/
2021-04-01T01:44:58Z caoliver: 2018 was a while ago unless I got dropped in the time machine yet again.
2021-04-01T01:47:43Z caoliver: I think the key language is "No restrictions apply after the expiration date shown above."
2021-04-01T01:47:49Z caoliver: But IANAL.
2021-04-01T01:48:37Z caoliver: That would also depend on the government having worlds absent of classified information.
2021-04-01T01:49:33Z caoliver really needs to attend to his pasta.  BBL.
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2021-04-01T01:52:21Z terpri: right, and "the Government shall have unlimited rights" after expiration. but whether they want to exercise those rights is a separate question
2021-04-01T01:52:29Z terpri: (IANAL either)
2021-04-01T01:54:15Z caoliver: Maybe I should have gone to law school rather than playing with math and computers.
2021-04-01T01:55:16Z caoliver: Probably not.  I'm a very not people/politics sort of person.
2021-04-01T01:55:19Z terpri: hm, seems that you can only view relatively recent spending on usaspending.gov. but the army paid symbolics almost $600k between 2006 and 2011 (for onsite hardware and software support) so someone was still using it
2021-04-01T01:56:18Z terpri: (support + an opengenera license)
2021-04-01T01:56:19Z caoliver: It wouldn't surprise me.  However I'd have assumed that they'd budge a port.
2021-04-01T01:56:31Z caoliver: s/budge/budget/
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2021-04-01T01:57:08Z caoliver: Say Allegro (is that still a thing?) on a modern fast box.
2021-04-01T01:58:08Z caoliver: It'd be a hell of a lot cheaper than what was squandered on F-22 and F-35.
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2021-04-01T01:59:50Z caoliver: Being a cheap ass, I'd do anything (assuming a ramen budget) with CCL or SBCL.
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2021-04-01T02:03:24Z palter: Those dates are post Symbolics so the Army would've been contracting through David Schmidt. I know that around 2015, there was a DoD dictum to get off non-standard systems. It's why Dave contracted with me (through Clozure) to do the Intel port.
2021-04-01T02:04:41Z palter: There were a couple of clients left then as I recall. One used Genera just for development and deployed on Allegro, I think. The other ran their application as a service.
2021-04-01T02:04:58Z palter: Don't remember which one was doing work for the Army. (Might have been both)
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2021-04-01T02:05:32Z palter: There's still a client who uses Genera for development and deploys on Allegro for a commercail product.
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2021-04-01T02:16:38Z terpri: i always wondered what those contracts were about. mystery solved :)
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2021-04-01T02:17:40Z ldbeth: how's the behavior of INTERN related to READTABLE-CASE?
2021-04-01T02:19:00Z no-defun-allowed: From memory, they are not at all.
2021-04-01T02:19:32Z no-defun-allowed: For all strings S, (string= (symbol-name (intern S)) S)
2021-04-01T02:19:55Z ldbeth: clhs 22.1.3.3.2.1
2021-04-01T02:19:55Z specbot: Examples of Effect of Readtable Case on the Lisp Printer: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_accba.htm
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2021-04-01T02:20:46Z ldbeth: figured that's probably caused by the printer
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2021-04-01T02:21:41Z no-defun-allowed: clhs intern
2021-04-01T02:21:42Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_intern.htm
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2021-04-01T02:31:35Z caoliver: That DoD dictum isn't surprising:  What is surprising is that it wasn't issued sooner.
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2021-04-01T03:00:22Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-04-01T04:54:14Z jcowan: Maiko, the Interlisp VM, also runs on both Mac and Linux (and Solaris and of course Linux for Windows)
2021-04-01T04:54:46Z jcowan: As for Elisps, it's true that Guile and Kawa don't provide the editor-specific data structures, but they do provide the Elisp language as such.
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2021-04-01T06:40:34Z ldbeth: jcowan: wait, interlisp vm?
2021-04-01T06:40:45Z ldbeth: where can I find that then?
2021-04-01T06:40:58Z moon-child: ldbeth: https://github.com/Interlisp/maiko/
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2021-04-01T11:03:54Z jmercouris: phoe: how can I show restarts to users in Nyxt?
2021-04-01T11:04:25Z jmercouris: Is there a portable way to do this?
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2021-04-01T11:04:45Z phoe: jmercouris: what do you mean, show?
2021-04-01T11:04:45Z no-defun-allowed: clhs compute-restarts
2021-04-01T11:04:45Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_comp_1.htm
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2021-04-01T11:05:14Z no-defun-allowed: The example provides a text interface-based example for what you want.
2021-04-01T11:05:16Z phoe: like do what the debugger does, show a series of like [FOO] Perform a FOO operation."
2021-04-01T11:05:21Z phoe: sort of thing?
2021-04-01T11:06:00Z jmercouris: phoe: yes, exactly
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2021-04-01T11:07:04Z phoe: because then what no-defun-allowed said - get a list of restarts available in the current dynenv this way via COMPUTE-RESTARTS, get restart names via RESTART-NAME, get restart reports via princ-to-stringing the restart objects, call them via INVOKE-RESTART-INTERACTIVELY after binding *query-io* in a proper way
2021-04-01T11:07:25Z jmercouris: Hm
2021-04-01T11:07:32Z phoe: ;; or y'know you can read my book instead
2021-04-01T11:07:40Z jmercouris: Double hm
2021-04-01T11:07:44Z phoe: you could take a look at the debugger of portable-condition-system as well
2021-04-01T11:07:55Z phoe: because this directly operates with restarts and displays them to the user
2021-04-01T11:08:06Z jmercouris: I see
2021-04-01T11:08:09Z phoe: s/with/on/
2021-04-01T11:08:22Z phoe: https://github.com/phoe/portable-condition-system/blob/master/src/debugger.lisp
2021-04-01T11:08:47Z phoe: in particular DEFINE-COMMAND :RESTARTS and below
2021-04-01T11:08:48Z jmercouris: I see very useful
2021-04-01T11:08:51Z jmercouris: Thank you
2021-04-01T11:09:12Z phoe: no problem
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2021-04-01T11:23:28Z ldbeth: good evening
2021-04-01T11:23:37Z phoe: hello
2021-04-01T11:24:33Z phoe: jmercouris: basically this sounds like you want to write your own Lisp debugger, which kind of makes sense because nyxt aims to be a Lisp environment
2021-04-01T11:24:40Z ldbeth: someone asked me if it is a good idea to modify *print-case* for readability
2021-04-01T11:25:05Z phoe: dynamically, or globally?
2021-04-01T11:25:51Z ldbeth: globally, he encountered the problem that setting *print-case* would cause trouble for cl-base64's macro
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2021-04-01T11:26:36Z ldbeth: which uses (intern (format nil "~A" ... something
2021-04-01T11:26:43Z phoe: oh, yes
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2021-04-01T11:27:14Z phoe: ;; I think that at least one of my own libraries is going to fall apart the same way if print-case is modified
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2021-04-01T11:27:34Z phoe: ;; I need to verify this someday
2021-04-01T11:27:40Z jmercouris: phoe: yes, we are going that direction
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2021-04-01T11:28:48Z phoe: I actually cannot see INTERN over FORMAT NIL in there
2021-04-01T11:29:02Z ldbeth: personally I feel IT IS NOT A BIG PROBLEAM READING UPPERCASED INDENTIFIERS.
2021-04-01T11:29:32Z phoe: what's the exact error you are getting? cl-base64 seems actually immune to this sorta error
2021-04-01T11:30:59Z ldbeth: he added (setf *print-case* :downcase) in his .sbclrc and using cl-base64-20201016-git
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2021-04-01T11:32:46Z ldbeth: and it's acually loading another package complains "The function cl-base64:base64-string-to-usb8-array is undefined."
2021-04-01T11:34:31Z phoe: show me that another package
2021-04-01T11:35:00Z phoe: because cl-base64 seems to define symbols with upcased names, like, always
2021-04-01T11:39:10Z ldbeth: phoe: "crypto-shortcuts", in package nice-school
2021-04-01T11:40:25Z ldbeth: might need to empty fasl files first
2021-04-01T11:43:13Z ldbeth: probably nice-school is the package he's developing
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2021-04-01T12:50:58Z beach: Bike: How is work on Cleavir going?
2021-04-01T12:51:33Z Bike: think i'm going to have to work on trucler like i mentioned before i get much farther with it.
2021-04-01T12:51:55Z beach: That makes sense.
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2021-04-01T12:57:26Z jmercouris: ferada: how do I add Gboxed types to cl-cffi-gtk?
2021-04-01T12:57:31Z jmercouris: such that get-g-boxed-foreign-info-for-gtype functions properly?
2021-04-01T12:57:52Z jmercouris: Ive tried to use the DEFINE-G-BOXED-* macros to no avail
2021-04-01T12:58:00Z jmercouris: perhaps I am not using them properly
2021-04-01T12:58:09Z jmercouris: http://dpaste.com/64J5BUCMJ
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2021-04-01T13:05:09Z jmercouris: looking at the documentation here: https://webkitgtk.org/reference/webkit2gtk/stable/WebKitNavigationAction.html I cannot for the life of me figure out what the struct fields are
2021-04-01T13:05:45Z jmercouris: which makes me think that it should be defined via define-g-boxed-opaque
2021-04-01T13:05:53Z jmercouris: however, how to use this is incredibly unclear
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2021-04-01T13:10:41Z ferada: jmercouris: hi, ...boxed-opaque looks correct to me like you said and how to use it, just look at the existing cases, like gtk-widget-path for example, function parameters use (object (g-boxed-foreign gtk-widget-path)) e.g.
2021-04-01T13:13:02Z jmercouris: ferada: I see, thanks
2021-04-01T13:13:47Z jmercouris: you mean (g-boxed-foreign gtk-widget-path) for specializing my defcfun
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2021-04-01T13:13:53Z jmercouris: why could i not just treat it as a pointer?
2021-04-01T13:14:08Z jmercouris: what is the point of wrapping in g-boxed when it is opaque?
2021-04-01T13:14:35Z ferada: you can pass raw pointers around, then you just have no idea what's in it
2021-04-01T13:14:48Z jmercouris: ferada: that's usually what I am doing
2021-04-01T13:14:52Z jmercouris: here is where the problem comes in
2021-04-01T13:15:07Z jmercouris: when you use g-signal-connect it tries to do some magic and convert the results into appropriate objects
2021-04-01T13:15:21Z jmercouris: let me show you what I mean
2021-04-01T13:16:45Z jmercouris: ferada: http://dpaste.com/77CSNHPE8
2021-04-01T13:17:46Z ferada: jmercouris: and what's the problem?
2021-04-01T13:17:53Z jmercouris: the problem is that "t" is passed somewhere
2021-04-01T13:17:59Z jmercouris: the result of my lambda
2021-04-01T13:18:02Z jmercouris: and cl-cffi-gtk loses its mind
2021-04-01T13:18:04Z jmercouris: let me show you a trace
2021-04-01T13:19:17Z jmercouris: http://dpaste.com/6R72G9TG2
2021-04-01T13:19:28Z jmercouris: ferada: ^
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2021-04-01T13:22:34Z ferada: jmercouris: that's this signal https://webkitgtk.org/reference/webkit2gtk/2.4.2/WebKitWebView.html#WebKitWebView-create  ?
2021-04-01T13:22:46Z ferada: T isn't a valid return value anyway
2021-04-01T13:22:48Z jmercouris: ferada: correct
2021-04-01T13:22:56Z jmercouris: it isn't, that's true
2021-04-01T13:23:05Z ferada: so, return NIL or a widget
2021-04-01T13:23:14Z jmercouris: a good point, maybe NIL will help it survive
2021-04-01T13:23:26Z ferada: i can't find an example with return value gboolean right now, might be that it's not supported
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2021-04-01T13:24:50Z jmercouris: wow, that worked
2021-04-01T13:24:56Z jmercouris: I would have /never/ thought
2021-04-01T13:25:09Z jmercouris: many of my assumptions have been now broken
2021-04-01T13:25:37Z jmercouris: strange, because I thought in other signal handlers I was returning incorrect values and it was handling it gracefully
2021-04-01T13:25:46Z jmercouris: maybe I was never doing that, and just imagined I was
2021-04-01T13:26:05Z jmercouris: thanks ferada
2021-04-01T13:26:39Z ferada: maybe, maybe not, it's a bit hard to search for this case since the return type isn't indicated in the lambdas unfortunately
2021-04-01T13:26:46Z ferada: not the greatest design i guess
2021-04-01T13:27:11Z ferada: np
2021-04-01T13:27:34Z ferada: let me know if you encounter other issues, i've seen the tickets, i just can't easily reproduce things at the moment
2021-04-01T13:27:43Z jmercouris: no problem, will do
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2021-04-01T14:05:47Z Josh_2: Afternoon
2021-04-01T14:06:33Z beach: Hello Josh_2.
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2021-04-01T17:02:01Z rodriga: hmm is there a more active Lisp group?  also has anybody here bet their career on Lisp/Clojure/functional?  What projects and information would you guys recommend if you want to one day be a professional hacker building "compilers" and eDSLs.
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2021-04-01T17:08:27Z Shinmera: I am betting my career on Lisp right this second.
2021-04-01T17:08:34Z Shinmera: and also previous seconds
2021-04-01T17:13:18Z Xach: rodriga: there is a discord lisp discussion channel that seems active, i don't know if it's more or less active than #lisp
2021-04-01T17:13:48Z Xach: rodriga: i think a number of people here write common lisp code as a career
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2021-04-01T17:17:16Z rodriga: sorry if this sounds like a dumb question but how would you get a job or internship in Lisp?  seems here locally its not very popular.  did you guys network by first getting remote open source projects, internships, etc...?  i've read On Lisp & SCIP.
2021-04-01T17:17:47Z Shinmera: I am self-employed, so the hiring process was very easy :)
2021-04-01T17:19:00Z Xach: rodriga: i liked using lisp but it was not formally part of my programming job in the past. i used common lisp to prototype things quickly and to implement internal tools where the implementation language wasn't all that critical. i also wrote a lot of code and shared it as i made my own hobby projects in common lisp. i went to conferences and chatted and emailed with people using lisp. over time i got into
2021-04-01T17:19:05Z Xach: some jobs where lisp was the main thing.
2021-04-01T17:22:23Z Xach: I don't have advice for someone starting today, sorry - the world has changed a lot since i got started. I don't know if the same approach would work starting now.
2021-04-01T17:22:48Z gabc: Conferences for one is a big more awkward today :P
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2021-04-01T17:23:33Z rodriga: are there remote conferences with a good amount of socializing?  Hmm, I've made lots of projects but I never bothered to blog about them.  Hmm I remember that in a few lines of code if you turned clojure code from parens into <span> and <div> you could then style clojure code to look however you wanted without changing the underlying s-exprs.
2021-04-01T17:23:36Z Xach: When I was getting into learning Common Lisp, there were multiple annual international conferences, and many regional enthusiast meetings. It's really dropped off a lot since then.
2021-04-01T17:24:42Z alandipert: otoh, programmers have never been in higher demand, and information has never been as accessible
2021-04-01T17:26:06Z Shinmera: ELS is coming up soon though
2021-04-01T17:26:11Z rodriga: yeah, but it seems that a lot of the in demand jobs are for technology that won't last long
2021-04-01T17:27:59Z rodriga: ELS?
2021-04-01T17:28:36Z Shinmera: https://www.european-lisp-symposium.org
2021-04-01T17:30:36Z rodriga: after reading SCIP and On Lisp and thinking about weird things like modifying Eval or Macros, I'm think Lisp is the most powerful language, and its the easiest to change your program from doing one thing to another.
2021-04-01T17:31:34Z Xach: rodriga: keep reading, there's a lot more interesting stuff.
2021-04-01T17:31:45Z Shinmera: Power is a silly concept, but I'm glad you're enjoying your time.
2021-04-01T17:31:54Z Xach: Paradigms of AI Programming is an interesting lisp that will teach you some nice Common Lisp stuff
2021-04-01T17:32:26Z rodriga: i did skim that book already haha
2021-04-01T17:34:30Z rodriga: trying to think how can I network myself into an internship or entry-level lisp job?
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2021-04-01T17:35:09Z Shinmera: Contribute to open source, get your name out there.
2021-04-01T17:35:31Z Shinmera: Submit papers to ELS, help folks out in IRC here.
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2021-04-01T17:36:51Z Shinmera: Wouldn't expect anything for years though unless you get super lucky or start a company yourself.
2021-04-01T17:37:45Z pjb: rodriga: send your resume to lisp companies. eg. https://www.ravenpack.com/careers/
2021-04-01T17:39:29Z Josh_2: Xach: in vecto is there a way to compose colours or calculate the colours of overlaps?
2021-04-01T17:39:42Z rodriga: well do you guys have any interesting projects i can help with?  There was this LightTable like plugin for emacs, and I was thinking if anybody finds those kind of environments productive (compared to Slime).
2021-04-01T17:41:19Z pjb: rodriga: take any CL project in gitlab or github and check the issues.  Alternatively http://www.metamodular.net/Common-Lisp/suggested-projects.html
2021-04-01T17:41:55Z pjb: rodriga: you can also start from the systems in quicklisp, some need maintenance or documentation.
2021-04-01T17:42:12Z Shinmera: rodriga: Sure. I have a game engine https://github.com/shirakumo/trial and a UI toolkit project https://github.com/shirakumo/alloy that could use a lot of work.
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2021-04-01T17:44:06Z rodriga: oh yeah i clicked that link and it says something about a library for writing GUIs, I was thinking what if you could take all your Lisp code functions and it could take the code and automatically create a (bad) GUI for scaffolding
2021-04-01T17:46:34Z rodriga: wait someone probably has already thought of that, rails creates scaffolds from your model, maybe they got the idea form somewhere else
2021-04-01T17:51:08Z rodriga: Shinmera: I wouldn't know where to start to learn your engine, hmm
2021-04-01T17:51:25Z Shinmera: Well, a tutorial is one of the things we're currently lacking :)
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2021-04-01T17:51:55Z Shinmera: The other devs and I hang out in #shirakumo on Freenode here to discuss the development of it and questions surrounding it, if you want to lurk.
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2021-04-01T17:55:50Z rodriga: Shinmera: sou ieba nihonjin desuka?  mae ni nihongo nourroku shiken N2 ni gougaku shitandesukedo...
2021-04-01T17:58:31Z Shinmera: 日本人じゃないですけどちょっと話します。名前は偶然ですよ。
2021-04-01T17:58:39Z Shinmera: Anyway, let's keep it to English here.
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2021-04-01T18:01:57Z Josh_2: Today I learned why its important to use (defvar ..) over defparameter
2021-04-01T18:02:19Z Josh_2: When I deleted some stored data for over 50 users
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2021-04-01T18:02:32Z Josh_2: luckily I had it backed up
2021-04-01T18:03:19Z Josh_2: Well tbf if I hadn't made the variable an empty hash table then it would have overwritten by backup as well
2021-04-01T18:05:44Z rodriga: oh yeah in python, I once had a bug when a long class that redefined a method
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2021-04-01T18:09:48Z Josh_2: I love being saved by an (unless
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2021-04-01T18:10:26Z edgar-rft: famous last words: (unless ...
2021-04-01T18:12:29Z semz: Is there a nice way to set *print-length* only for the representations in Slime? I don't want to set it globally but am rather sick of slowing Emacs down to a crawl whenever a returned list is large.
2021-04-01T18:12:41Z rodriga: oh yeah is Emacs sorf of like a Lisp OS like Smalltalk's Pharo?  How hard is it to build a compatibility layer that can convet Emacls Lisp code to Common Lisp and Common Lisp code to Emacs Lisp?
2021-04-01T18:13:35Z jackdaniel: elisp has a package "imitating" common lisp
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2021-04-01T18:16:21Z pjb: semz: yes. In swank.
2021-04-01T18:16:57Z pjb: semz: https://github.com/informatimago/rc/blob/master/swank.lisp
2021-04-01T18:17:43Z pjb: semz: this is my ~/.swank.lisp rc file.
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2021-04-01T18:18:27Z pjb: rodriga: there's an emacs-cl CL implementation targetting emacs lisp that has bit-rotten since GNU emacs  has lexical bindings.  You could update it.
2021-04-01T18:18:41Z pjb: rodriga: https://github.com/larsbrinkhoff/emacs-cl
2021-04-01T18:18:48Z pjb: fork, patch, send PR.
2021-04-01T18:19:56Z semz: pjb: neat!
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2021-04-01T19:00:52Z rodriga: does lisp have something like haskell's papers?  its a good way to learn new new cutting edge programming techniques.
2021-04-01T19:01:25Z Josh_2: cutting edge? seems to me the "cutting edge" is just recycled Lisp techniques
2021-04-01T19:01:32Z Josh_2: seems to be my impression
2021-04-01T19:03:45Z rodriga: where are these Lisp techniques written?
2021-04-01T19:03:55Z Josh_2: In the source code folks write
2021-04-01T19:05:08Z rodriga: but isn't Lisp source like an embedded DSL?  trying to reverse engineer a DSL can be hard?
2021-04-01T19:05:19Z Josh_2: No
2021-04-01T19:05:37Z Josh_2: maybe in racket
2021-04-01T19:05:38Z rodriga: whats the best written lisp code in your opinion?
2021-04-01T19:05:56Z Josh_2: Gosh I don't know, maybe you should read PAIP
2021-04-01T19:06:24Z Josh_2: Or practical common lisp
2021-04-01T19:07:14Z Bike: most lisp source is not an embedded DSL, it's just code
2021-04-01T19:07:23Z Bike: most of the macros people define are pretty simple and easy to understand
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2021-04-01T19:07:49Z Bike: things like LOOP that are there own language do exist, but they're not the majority of any program
2021-04-01T19:07:52Z Bike: their own*
2021-04-01T19:10:05Z rodriga: i see.
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2021-04-01T20:13:06Z White_Flame: rodriga: usually, the macro-based customization of CL is focused around creating the proper abstractions for your codebase, which just gives a few enhancements and interacts well with CL in a very readable way, not it's own completely separate languages
2021-04-01T20:14:26Z White_Flame: ...swing and a miss
2021-04-01T20:17:20Z Josh_2: Does anyone know what stream log4cl uses?
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2021-04-01T20:27:12Z jackdaniel: what do you mean?
2021-04-01T20:27:47Z jackdaniel: clearly since there are multiple appenders it uses multiple streams
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2021-04-01T20:31:56Z Josh_2: Yes, basically the old functionality just locally bound *standard-output* so that I could grab the output and send it over a socket, but then I swapped my logging system to log4cl and this obviously broke
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2021-04-01T20:36:23Z mfiano: This isn't an answer, but perhaps try verbose.
2021-04-01T20:36:30Z mfiano: (I Like it better)
2021-04-01T20:38:55Z jackdaniel: you will need to check that in the source code, but if I remember correctly the appender protocol consists of a single method
2021-04-01T20:39:18Z jackdaniel: so it is enough to implement it for your stream and add the appender
2021-04-01T20:39:42Z jackdaniel: then (log:/message-function/ ,@message) will use it
2021-04-01T20:40:28Z jackdaniel: that said, from what you have said you expect it to intercept messages to the standard output - that's not how log4cl works
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2021-04-01T20:52:23Z Josh_2: Verbose is a logging tool mfiano?
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2021-04-01T20:52:49Z mfiano: Yes
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2021-04-01T21:41:22Z Xach: stylewarning: is there a new magicl release coming?
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2021-04-01T21:41:47Z phoe: Xach: did the last change to magicl not fix the build?
2021-04-01T21:42:07Z phoe: asking because I was kind of involved in it
2021-04-01T21:42:08Z Xach: phoe: I don't think it was tagged as a release on github. at least as of early this morning.
2021-04-01T21:42:12Z phoe: oh! yes, I see
2021-04-01T21:42:19Z Xach: that is the version i use for magicl
2021-04-01T21:42:51Z Xach: Josh_2: the color composition is not exposed directly.
2021-04-01T21:43:02Z Xach: Josh_2: the math is there for perusal in the code if you like, though.
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2021-04-01T21:52:19Z Xach: Josh_2: what did you have in mind?
2021-04-01T22:03:23Z jcowan: Is Trucler intended to be called from user-defined macros?
2021-04-01T22:03:55Z Bike: i think so, since the first example does so
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2021-04-01T22:05:47Z jcowan: I confess to not looking at examples when I read specs (they are often misleading or outright wrong in my experience)
2021-04-01T22:06:26Z Bike: well that's all i got. what it's actually been developed for so far is using it in compilers, tho.
2021-04-01T22:06:50Z jcowan: There are a few problematic specs where the examples are normative either de facto or de jure
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2021-04-01T22:18:13Z stylewarning: Xach yes we can re-release
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2021-04-01T23:02:34Z cipherchess: topic
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2021-04-01T23:08:21Z Xach: stylewarning: mycket bra
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2021-04-01T23:23:11Z jasom: Is there a library that makes a non-seekable stream (somewhat) seekable by adding buffering on top?  I'm thinking something that guarantees always allowing seeking back N elements (up to the beginning, where N >> 1 and is possibly configurable)
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2021-04-01T23:28:16Z mfiano: A Gray stream wrapper for that would be only a couple lines of code not even worth a library
2021-04-01T23:31:16Z Xach: MORE LIBRARIES
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2021-04-02T03:07:58Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-04-02T03:30:55Z jasom: mfiano: it's not the number of lines of code, it's how long it takes to write the lines of code.  I've written something similar before and I had some subtle bugs with my first implementation.
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2021-04-02T08:53:20Z moon-child: are there guidelines about when to use rplaca/rplacd vs (setf (car/cdr))?
2021-04-02T08:54:14Z beach: Yes, never use the former.
2021-04-02T08:54:39Z moon-child: why?
2021-04-02T08:55:57Z flip214: convention, I guess - and because SETF is much more familiar
2021-04-02T08:56:03Z beach: They have no advantage, and they don't return the object being stored.
2021-04-02T08:56:57Z beach: RPLACA and RPLACD should be considered low-level functions to be used mainly by the person creating the Common Lisp system, just like SETQ.
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2021-04-02T08:58:57Z beach: ... and SYMBOL-FUNCTION, and (SETF SYMBOL-FUNCTION) too.
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2021-04-02T10:24:48Z seok: How do I load up projects in home directory in slime ?
2021-04-02T10:24:56Z phoe: seok: make sure ASDF is aware of them
2021-04-02T10:25:10Z phoe: and then asdf:load-system or ql:quickload them
2021-04-02T10:25:12Z seok: it worked before, it stopped working
2021-04-02T10:25:25Z seok: make sure ASDF is aware of them < how do I do this ?
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2021-04-02T10:26:06Z phoe: ensure that a pathname to your project folder is present in asdf:*central-registry*
2021-04-02T10:27:02Z seok: asdf:*central-registry* only has ~/.quicklisp/quicklisp/
2021-04-02T10:27:05Z seok: is this normal?
2021-04-02T10:28:38Z splittist: seok: have you read https://www.common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html#Configuring-ASDF ?
2021-04-02T10:28:48Z seok: nope
2021-04-02T10:29:17Z seok: adding #P"/home/user/" doesn't seem to help
2021-04-02T10:29:37Z seok: It was working fine before, but it stopped working for unknown reason
2021-04-02T10:30:02Z seok: the link is dead by the way, I'll search it up
2021-04-02T10:32:07Z phoe: the link works for me
2021-04-02T10:33:04Z seok: nope not for me
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2021-04-02T10:37:44Z seok: i moved my project to ~/.quicklisp/local-projects/ and it works
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2021-04-02T10:49:25Z MetaYan: phoe: seok: common-lisp.net is unreachable for me as well.
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2021-04-02T11:07:02Z pjb: moon-child: rplaca is a function; (setf car) is a function too.  (let ((cs (list (cons nil nil) (cons nil nil))))  (values (mapc #'rplaca  cs '(1 2)) (mapc #'(setf cdr)  '(44 55) cs))) #| --> ((1 . 44) (2 . 55)) ; (44 55) |#  your choice.
2021-04-02T11:08:07Z no-defun-allowed: Nope, Clozure does not implement (setf cdr) as a function, and that is allowed somewhere in the standard.
2021-04-02T11:09:37Z no-defun-allowed: (setf getf) would most likely not be a function, for example, as it might push a new property into the place without modifying list structure.
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2021-04-02T11:11:05Z pjb: moon-child: however, it looks like (function (setf car)) is not conforming: implementations could have no such function, and just hack setf, like for defstruct accessors.
2021-04-02T11:11:39Z leo_song_: https://common-lisp.net/ is dead?
2021-04-02T11:12:03Z phoe: DHCP issues
2021-04-02T11:12:04Z no-defun-allowed: pjb: Say something once, why say it again?
2021-04-02T11:12:11Z pjb: moon-child: https://termbin.com/27m4  ; so you can see that you have to use rplaca when you need a function.
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2021-04-02T11:14:51Z leo_song_: :-(
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2021-04-02T16:28:26Z MrtnDk[m]: rpg: Which Travis pulled the plug on Cl on GitHub?
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2021-04-02T16:40:53Z MrtnDk[m]: minion: memo for jcowan: I wonder what "idiotic mysticism" is then. Can thou please elaborate on that phrase, please, thank you.
2021-04-02T16:40:54Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell jcowan when he/she/it next speaks.
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2021-04-02T16:43:27Z beach: Where did you see that phrase?  A search did not find it.
2021-04-02T16:43:35Z beach: Maybe in some other channel?
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2021-04-02T17:05:33Z mfiano: It was a couple days ago in ##Lisp. jcowan was unhappy with the Lisp community.
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2021-04-02T17:54:01Z luis: Shinmera: CFFI v0.24.0 is out! https://github.com/cffi/cffi/wiki/NEWS#version-0240
2021-04-02T17:54:20Z Shinmera: \o/
2021-04-02T17:54:32Z luis: successfully avoiding 1.0.0 since 2006
2021-04-02T17:55:31Z alandipert: haha, yay, congrats luis
2021-04-02T17:55:47Z Shinmera: Finally I can get rid of the defctype size_ts in all my libs
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2021-04-02T18:53:35Z fe[nl]ix: luis: very nice :)
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2021-04-02T18:54:06Z jackdaniel: luis: congrats!
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2021-04-02T19:03:16Z thomasb06: Hello. Currently, I'm trying to install Ulubis, and I get this backtrace: https://x0.at/URP.log
2021-04-02T19:03:29Z thomasb06: Any idea what went wrong?
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2021-04-02T19:14:15Z Bike: i'm not familiar with ulubis, but it's hard to imagine that log helping. did it really not even give you an error code?
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2021-04-02T19:19:54Z thomasb06: apologies, doing several things at the same time
2021-04-02T19:20:20Z Bike: no need to apologize
2021-04-02T19:20:23Z thomasb06: where can I get an error code, when running ./ulubis?
2021-04-02T19:21:24Z thomasb06: it's a window manager so I should run it from console mode, but the only trace I get is in this file
2021-04-02T19:22:12Z Bike: https://github.com/malcolmstill/ulubis/blob/master/ulubis.lisp#L139-L141 looks like you're supposed to be getting a backtrace, but evidently not
2021-04-02T19:23:16Z Bike: print-backtrace prints to *debug-io* whereas that format will print to *standard-output*. maybe the log is only getting the standard output.
2021-04-02T19:24:23Z Bike: i guess you could try replacing the print-backtrace call with (let ((*debug-io* (make-two-way-stream *standard-input* *standard-output*))) (trivial-backtrace:print-backtrace e)), and then it will print the backtrace to standard output as well.
2021-04-02T19:24:49Z Bike: oh, or more simply (trivial-backtrace:print-backtrace e :output *standard-output*)
2021-04-02T19:25:12Z Bike: probably pass :verbose t as well
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2021-04-02T19:28:24Z thomasb06: ah, let me have a look. (it doesn't show but I'm on a sugar crash... had a huge patisserie few hours ago and obviously it was more sugary that what I'm used too)
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2021-04-02T19:34:29Z thomasb06: so I've put `(trivial-backtrace:print-backtrace e :output *standard-output* :verbose t)` and now I recompile
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2021-04-02T19:38:57Z thomasb06: now the output is: https://x0.at/h9F.log
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2021-04-02T19:42:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: luis: one thing that would be really useful on macOS is support for the @executable_path, @loader_path and @rpath variables, although I think this would also need implementation-level changes
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2021-04-02T19:54:15Z thomasb06: Bike does the new backtrace ring a bell?
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2021-04-02T20:06:59Z Bike: "not a typewriter". well, okay.
2021-04-02T20:09:19Z Bike: https://github.com/malcolmstill/ulubis/issues/62 well, someone else has the same problem.
2021-04-02T20:11:38Z Bike: https://github.com/malcolmstill/ulubis-drm-gbm/blob/master/ulubis-drm-gbm.lisp#L35-L39 i suppose it's one of these ioctl calls.
2021-04-02T20:12:05Z Bike: i have very little idea about graphics programming, let alone ulubis, so that's as far as i go
2021-04-02T20:13:12Z jcowan: I see I have been massively misinterpreted by several different people, and I hate that (Geek Answer Syndrome)
2021-04-02T20:13:48Z phoe: luis: congrats
2021-04-02T20:15:31Z Bike: you should report this logging bug along with your actual problem, btw
2021-04-02T20:18:41Z jcowan: So: I'm not annoyed with the Lisp community and never have been.  What is more, someone else applied the phrase "idiotic mysticism" to Zen, not to Lisp, and I denied that Zen was in any way mystical.  What I did do was compare certain Lispers (unnamed) to irascible Zen masters: they know a lot, but they have no patience with those who don't.
2021-04-02T20:19:47Z mason: jcowan: That was a random comment the other day. How is that still in anyone's mind?
2021-04-02T20:20:36Z jcowan: It only now came to my attention.  "Need brooks no delay, yet late is better than never."
2021-04-02T20:21:04Z mason: kk
2021-04-02T20:21:05Z mfiano: I have been trying to decide if I should be offended by "some very useful help tends to be available only from rather grumpy people"
2021-04-02T20:23:19Z jcowan: "An insult is like a drink: it affects one only if it is accepted."  If you don't think you meet that description, then I see no reason to be offended.  I certainly did not have you in mind.
2021-04-02T20:24:30Z mfiano: I was thinking all the Lispers that I respect, moreso than myself.
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2021-04-02T20:33:41Z thomasb06: Bike cheers
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2021-04-02T20:34:49Z thomasb06: Bike on the Gitter channel, I posted both backtraces, maybe I'll get a few hint
2021-04-02T20:35:20Z thomasb06: as I don't know any of Lisp, I won't go that far at all... Thank you for your help
2021-04-02T20:36:00Z thomasb06: My graphics card is an Nvidia so maybe it's related
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2021-04-02T21:02:42Z Josh_2: Xach: I have a lot of overlapping circles and I was hoping that when two overlap I could do a composite colour
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2021-04-02T21:25:22Z Feldman: I was wondering, does anyone know *why* CL-CONT is so slow, on the technical level?
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2021-04-02T21:28:36Z _death: I guess because it uses funcallable-instances, though I've not checked
2021-04-02T21:30:08Z Feldman: What exactly is a "funcallable instance", a bunch of lambda functions?
2021-04-02T21:30:17Z phoe: nope
2021-04-02T21:30:22Z phoe: it's a MOP term
2021-04-02T21:30:27Z phoe: it's a standard object that is funcallable
2021-04-02T21:31:25Z _death: Feldman: check make-funcallable in the source
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2021-04-02T21:34:20Z Shinmera: even without that you basically need to wrap a ton of stuff in lambdas and thus create a lot of indirection and allocation that is otherwise not necessary. Without direct implementation support you can't do much better.
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2021-04-02T21:35:24Z _death: Feldman: not only that, it calls f/cc-function (a generic function) each time as well.. no dynamic-extent declaration for the &rest arg though maybe it's inferred
2021-04-02T21:36:05Z _death: you can do much better.. personally I like https://8c6794b6.github.io/posts/Delimited-continuations-with-monadic-functions-in-Common-Lisp.html
2021-04-02T21:36:07Z Feldman: _death: Not quite sure how dispatch is done for funcallable instances, but would implementing Robert Strandh's fast dispatch solve or help that?
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2021-04-02T21:36:37Z phoe: it isn't
2021-04-02T21:36:37Z Bike: they don't dispatch, do they?
2021-04-02T21:36:44Z phoe: funcallable instances don't have dispatch by default
2021-04-02T21:36:54Z phoe: dispatching is a GF thing.
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2021-04-02T21:37:02Z Bike: a funcallable instance is just a function with some other slots attach. it doesn't do any kind of dispatch unless you define it to do so.
2021-04-02T21:37:04Z phoe: by default, calling a funcallable instance just calls a standard lisp function
2021-04-02T21:37:07Z Bike: attached.
2021-04-02T21:37:16Z phoe: but what that function does, that's up to the programmer
2021-04-02T21:37:28Z Feldman: Oh right, why are they so slow then? lack of implementation optimisation?
2021-04-02T21:37:42Z phoe: are they slow?
2021-04-02T21:37:50Z Bike: well, death suggested they are
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2021-04-02T21:38:06Z Bike: i'm not sure they are, though. depends on what cl-cont is doing.
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2021-04-02T21:38:43Z Bike: i don't actually understand why a continuations system would involve them
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2021-04-02T21:38:59Z _death: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/cl-cont/cl-cont/-/blob/master/src/special-transformers.lisp#L211
2021-04-02T21:39:15Z Feldman: I would've imagined if FIs weren't generic, they would be as fast as normal functions
2021-04-02T21:39:19Z Bike: okay, that definitely looks slow.
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2021-04-02T21:39:53Z phoe: seems like a 10x overhead over normal functions
2021-04-02T21:40:21Z Bike: i mean, slow because every call does an apply of this other function, which i guess applies VALUES?
2021-04-02T21:40:26Z _death: Feldman: I think you can make some small changes that could make it much faster
2021-04-02T21:40:32Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2372#2372
2021-04-02T21:40:39Z Bike: values represents the final continuation i suppose
2021-04-02T21:41:00Z phoe: but given the sheer number of repetitions I seriously don't think that fin overhead is what makes things slow
2021-04-02T21:41:11Z Bike: phoe: huh, that's way worse than i'd expect... oh, well, actually sbcl is almost certainly going to inline your second lambda there
2021-04-02T21:41:20Z _death: before I also used arnesi continuations, which I don't think do that kind of thing
2021-04-02T21:41:23Z phoe: oh
2021-04-02T21:41:33Z phoe: I don't know how to tell it not to inline
2021-04-02T21:42:24Z _death: oh, looks like they use funcallable instances as well
2021-04-02T21:42:41Z Bike: defining them both as global functions declaimed notinline is one way, but ofc then you get a little bit of overhead from looking up the global
2021-04-02T21:42:50Z Bike: but it's the same for both so it's ok
2021-04-02T21:43:04Z phoe: oh right, that function call isn't inlined
2021-04-02T21:43:09Z phoe: it's optimized away altogether
2021-04-02T21:43:18Z Bike: tomato, tomato
2021-04-02T21:43:29Z Bike: i did not think that through.
2021-04-02T21:43:31Z phoe: okay, I have no idea how to benchmark that
2021-04-02T21:43:38Z phoe: too late for me to think properly
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2021-04-02T21:44:08Z Bike: anyway, it looks like this other stuff cl-cont is doing is going to be slow regardless of how instances work.
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2021-04-02T21:44:53Z Feldman: I'm asking because I was thinking about a tagbody (and possibly symbol-macro) based approach that would avoid wrapping stuff in lambda (they would be wrapped in tagbodies instead, which I assume are lighter)
2021-04-02T21:46:26Z Bike: worth a shot. probably hard to do it correctly in general, tho.
2021-04-02T21:46:31Z luis: fiddlerwoaroof: maybe my next computer will be a mac again, but right now I don't have any macs (not sure if the powerbook still boots :D). Last one got stolen a few years back.
2021-04-02T21:48:00Z _death: Feldman: just removing that f/cc-function call would likely make it much faster (funcallable-standard-instance-access?)
2021-04-02T21:49:03Z pjb: My next computer was a NeXT Computer :-)
2021-04-02T21:51:48Z Feldman: _death: yeah I saw that and was like ??, I suppose FGF would actually help there!, still I wonder why the overhead is 10× for funcallable instances on SBCL in general...
2021-04-02T21:52:07Z _death: Feldman: I'm guessing for the funcallable-instance-function simply having (apply function #'values args) will do.. if the function slot does not change
2021-04-02T21:52:08Z Bike: it's not. phoe's benchmark does not account for an optimization.
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2021-04-02T21:53:23Z _death: Feldman: in short, it's slow because no one worked on making it faster ;)
2021-04-02T21:53:45Z Bike: i tried making them global and the funcallable instance is called pretty much exactly as quickly as a regular function.
2021-04-02T21:54:11Z Bike: ten million calls in 36 ms. it's fine.
2021-04-02T21:54:22Z _death: Bike: that's good to hear
2021-04-02T21:54:52Z Feldman: That's more reassuring
2021-04-02T21:55:17Z Bike: luckily, death has identified several other horrible efficiency issues to gasp in distress at
2021-04-02T21:57:07Z Bike: seems like some other stuff will get screwed up too, here. if every lambda expression is made into one of these funcallable things, that's going to inhibit a lot of normal compiler optimizations
2021-04-02T21:57:39Z Bike: i don't see anything that sets the f/cc-function, at least?
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2021-04-02T21:59:05Z _death: Bike: me neither.. there's use of the reader, and that can turn into f-i-s-a or something..
2021-04-02T21:59:18Z Bike: or just have the instance function close over it
2021-04-02T21:59:37Z _death: Bike: yeah, I mean in fdesignator-to-function/cc
2021-04-02T21:59:53Z Bike: oh i see
2021-04-02T22:03:14Z asarch: This is a meme about how hard a programming language could be. What is "The Lambda Tessaract"? Is it related to Common Lisp? https://pasteboard.co/JVwyaeU.jpg
2021-04-02T22:03:43Z Bike: asarch: probably some kind of reference to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda_cube
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2021-04-02T22:04:17Z Bike: i guess you could add subtyping as another dimension to get a tesseract
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2021-04-02T22:07:39Z Bike: so basically, no
2021-04-02T22:07:48Z asarch: ?
2021-04-02T22:07:58Z asarch: I mean, Oh
2021-04-02T22:08:06Z asarch: Yeah, yeah
2021-04-02T22:08:09Z asarch: Thank you Bike
2021-04-02T22:08:13Z asarch: Thank you very much :-)
2021-04-02T22:08:24Z Bike: happy to be of assistance
2021-04-02T22:09:52Z asarch: I owe you some beers :-)
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2021-04-02T22:47:36Z thomasb06: Bike the 'Status' section in the readme.md says to get in touch with Nvidia issue: https://github.com/malcolmstill/ulubis/issues/64
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2021-04-03T03:02:02Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-04-03T03:16:15Z charles`: Hi beach.
2021-04-03T03:16:30Z charles`: Is there any reason why quicklisp would not prioritize local-projects?
2021-04-03T03:16:55Z no-defun-allowed: It always has for me.
2021-04-03T03:17:36Z charles`: It has for me too, but in this one situation, it continues to pull form latest quicklisp release
2021-04-03T03:18:42Z loke[m]1: charles` you can try to delete system-index.txt
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2021-04-03T03:20:44Z charles`: wow, amazing! much thanks
2021-04-03T03:22:48Z thermo: i'm using sbcl, and i'm struggling to diagnose a slow OOM. i was hoping to get some related info by setting sb-kernel:gc-logfile and inspecting the output --- but nothing seems to be being written. are there further flags i'm meant to set?
2021-04-03T03:24:21Z beach: What is "OOM"?
2021-04-03T03:24:32Z thermo: out of memory
2021-04-03T03:24:39Z beach: Ah, OK.
2021-04-03T03:28:27Z thermo: i'd also be happy to just hear generic tips about diagnosing memory problems. if there's a way to see statistics what's still alive and where it was allocated, that'd be amazing
2021-04-03T03:31:15Z no-defun-allowed: If you break and evaluate (room t), SBCL provides a list of object types which have instances which occupy the most memory.
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2021-04-03T03:49:00Z charles`: Does anyone know of special variables not behaving properly on ABCL?
2021-04-03T03:50:36Z beach: Are you sure the behavior is ABCL specific?
2021-04-03T03:51:08Z no-defun-allowed: How are they misbehaving?
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2021-04-03T04:10:06Z charles`: beach, no-defun-allowed: I'm not sure 😁. I would really appreciate a you taking a look. It works perfectly on sbcl. Let me write a test that displays what is wrong. Then I will share a link.
2021-04-03T04:50:26Z charles`: Well, I managed to figure it out on my own. I'm sorry for possibly blaming ABCL.
2021-04-03T04:53:47Z beach: Congratulations!
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2021-04-03T04:57:39Z charles`: Are you working on anything cool today?
2021-04-03T04:58:43Z beach: minion: Please tell charles` about SICL.
2021-04-03T04:58:44Z minion: charles`: SICL: SICL is a (perhaps futile) attempt to re-implement Common Lisp from scratch, hopefully using improved programming and bootstrapping techniques. See https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL
2021-04-03T05:00:48Z charles`: I know about it, I just mean specifically
2021-04-03T05:01:05Z beach: Register allocation.
2021-04-03T05:01:17Z beach: I invented what I think is a new technique.
2021-04-03T05:02:00Z charles`: that would be when you need to do some operations, how to decide which registers to put the data in?
2021-04-03T05:02:20Z beach: It is based on the OPT (imaginary) paging algorithm in that it estimates the distance to the next use of lexical variables, and when it needs to spill, it spills the one with the greatest estimated distance.
2021-04-03T05:02:45Z beach: More like deciding which register to spill to the stack when there are not enough of them.
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2021-04-03T05:15:44Z beach: Registers are typically grouped into (overlapping) categories like general-purpose, caller saves, callee saves, floating point.  Usually, any register in the right category will do for an operation.
2021-04-03T05:15:45Z beach: But when there are not enough registers, but you need for a lexical variable to be in a register even though right now it is not, you need to "steal" a register from some other lexical variable.  Performance depends crucially on that choice.
2021-04-03T05:16:38Z beach: If you steal a register from a lexical variable that is going to be needed in a register fairly soon, you waste load/store operations.
2021-04-03T05:17:12Z beach: charles`: Does that make sense?
2021-04-03T05:17:17Z charles`: Sure does
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2021-04-03T05:22:18Z charles`: When you are doing this stuff with registers are you still writing it in Lisp?
2021-04-03T05:23:10Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, all of the compiler is written in Lisp. (This is also the case for SBCL and Clozure at least.)
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2021-04-03T05:32:53Z charles`: I know that is the idea, but I just can't wrap my head around how you would manipulate registers like that.
2021-04-03T05:33:07Z charles`: without actually programming assembly
2021-04-03T05:34:32Z aeth: Effectively, via custom "inline assembly" except it's syntactically just s-expressions so it's not really "inline assembly".
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2021-04-03T05:34:43Z beach: Oh, you write a "code generator" in Common Lisp.  You turn the Common Lisp code into machine code, and the program doing the turning is just another Common Lisp program.  It is that program that inspects the instructions that are needed and makes decisions about what registers to use.
2021-04-03T05:34:55Z no-defun-allowed: You generate assembly in the end with any compiler. But the code manipulating the assembly is written in Common Lisp, yes.
2021-04-03T05:35:22Z beach: charles`: The decisions are made at compile time, not at run time.
2021-04-03T05:35:25Z seok: anyone else experiencing high latency with winhttp
2021-04-03T05:37:04Z charles`: hmm, so even though you aren't writing a compiler in assembly, there is some assembly written as output (maybe in a string). I got that it is at compile time.
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2021-04-03T05:38:34Z no-defun-allowed: Close, but the output is usually machine code, as a vector of bytes.
2021-04-03T05:39:19Z no-defun-allowed remembers "assembly" is the text form of machine code with labels and instruction names. Oops.
2021-04-03T05:40:22Z beach: charles`: As no-defun-allowed says, there is no particular reason for a compiler to generate assembly code.  Assembly code was invented so that humans would have less trouble writing machine code.  But a compiler does not need that human-friendly aspects that assembly provides.
2021-04-03T05:40:24Z charles`: sure, of course.
2021-04-03T05:40:54Z White_Flame: compilers have IRs
2021-04-03T05:41:20Z White_Flame: and "labels" as pointers etc
2021-04-03T05:41:45Z White_Flame: so one could consider such a representation to be very comparable to assembly
2021-04-03T05:42:13Z White_Flame: (s/pointers/references/ when written in lisp, of course)
2021-04-03T05:43:19Z moon-child: White_Flame: for the assembly representation, 'label' is more useful because it enforces an ordering, which you need to compute offsets (and decide when to generate short jumps, for supported platforms)
2021-04-03T05:44:12Z no-defun-allowed: I had generated acceptable assembly output from Cleavir's LIR once (which was used to make verifying it by eyeball somewhat easier).
2021-04-03T05:45:07Z White_Flame: moon-child: I mean a direct reference from 1 instruction's IR object to another
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2021-04-03T05:45:25Z White_Flame: certainly that form can be used to calculate relative offsets just the same
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2021-04-03T06:17:22Z charles`: Could someone help me understand how complex asdf are supposed to work. Ones with multiple systems defined in a single file, and stuff like cl-unicode/base
2021-04-03T06:18:07Z charles`: Why aren't they each in their own .asd file in their own directory?
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2021-04-03T06:25:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: charles`: I tend to find it's nice to group related systems into a single .asd
2021-04-03T06:26:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: ASDF now has some logic to complain if the system names don't follow a specified format, though
2021-04-03T06:26:05Z White_Flame: probably because they're intimately related.  Broken out components of the same library for organization purposes, as well as tests & examples
2021-04-03T06:26:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: :base-system -> :base-system/subsystem
2021-04-03T06:26:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: One common pattern is :base-system and :base-system/tests in the same asd
2021-04-03T06:26:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: So your users don't have to load your testing dependencies
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2021-04-03T13:17:12Z Xach: leo_song_: I'm having a weird problem with osicat, and it looks like it *might* be related to the most recent cffi commit
2021-04-03T13:17:21Z Xach: leo_song_: can i share a log and maybe you have some insight?
2021-04-03T13:17:45Z Xach: it's not just osicat - it's other stuff too
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2021-04-03T13:19:52Z Xach: leo_song_: https://www.xach.com/tmp/fail.txt is for cl-freetype2 for example
2021-04-03T13:21:52Z Xach: or any other cffi friends
2021-04-03T13:21:55Z Xach: (luis?)
2021-04-03T13:22:41Z Xach: It looks like the latest release was put up on common-lisp.net last night
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2021-04-03T13:31:06Z Xach: cl-freetype2, osicat, cl-gss at least - and osicat breaks a *lot* of other things
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2021-04-03T13:33:35Z perdent1: Hi I have a crypto challenge for you all, let me know what you think of it and if you can solve it ! Good luck  The more the merrier, right? We decided to mash two of the best cryptosytems together for the best product. Our new encryption scheme is up and running and this time it is unbreakable! To prove that, we have also released its source code and a test center where you can test it out!  host: 139.59.178.146:31817  (flag is located on the server) https
2021-04-03T13:34:05Z ChanServ has set mode +o Xach
2021-04-03T13:34:08Z Xach has set mode +b *!*perdent@192.145.118.*
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2021-04-03T13:34:22Z Lycurgus: ty
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2021-04-03T13:41:40Z Josh_2: Good afternoon
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2021-04-03T14:07:22Z luis: Xach: thanks, I'll have a look and probably revert that bit. sadly osicat's travis cronjob was not active :(
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2021-04-03T14:46:24Z luis: Xach: pushed 0.24.1, which fixes osicat. Activated osicat's travis cronjob so that hopefully this sort of things gets caught before it reaches Quicklisp next time. thanks.
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2021-04-03T15:57:48Z Xach: luis: thank you!
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2021-04-03T16:02:18Z Xach: Josh_2: https://github.com/xach/vecto/commit/312dea5860c04739d872e21ee9fdb2c759ac5f45 shows how you can do anything you want when blending two colors together with vecto
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2021-04-03T18:02:48Z jcowan: beach: I don't understand why you need to compromise on allocation.  OPT paging is impossible because the kernel has only peephole into what the user program is going to do.  But you have the whole lexical scope already available, so no need to *estimate* what the remote distance.
2021-04-03T18:03:14Z jcowan: Of course there are conditionals, so that requires a model of probable branching.  But I suppose you have that already in order to optimize compiling them.
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2021-04-03T19:58:00Z Josh_2: Xach: thanks I'll give it a look
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2021-04-03T20:48:31Z phoe: Xach: thanks for the garbage collection
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2021-04-03T21:03:36Z jmercouris: But we’ll never known what this unbreakable crypto scheme is!
2021-04-03T21:03:42Z jmercouris: Aren’t you dying to know?
2021-04-03T21:03:55Z jmercouris: /s
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2021-04-03T21:28:34Z aeth: Isn't unbreakable crypto scheme on-topic in #scheme not here?
2021-04-03T21:28:44Z jcowan snickers
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2021-04-03T21:29:40Z aeth: jcowan: and people still wouldn't use it for crypto, because of the parentheses
2021-04-03T21:29:43Z jcowan: I always have to search for [scheme language] or [scheme programming] on Google because of this issue.  SCHMER would have been a much better name
2021-04-03T21:30:04Z jcowan: given the six-letter Maclisp restriction
2021-04-03T21:30:19Z aap: not maclisp, its
2021-04-03T21:30:56Z jcowan: As for the unbreakable crypto scheme, it is one-time tape/pad (xor each bit with a truly random bit, which must be available at both ends).  Of course the key distribution problem is vicious.
2021-04-03T21:32:47Z Odin-: For the latter, see Project Venona.
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2021-04-03T21:34:35Z aeth: aap: you have defeated me in alphabetic sorting!
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2021-04-03T21:34:45Z aap: aeth: sorry :)
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2021-04-03T21:36:59Z jcowan: aap: What do you mean by "not maclisp, its"?
2021-04-03T21:37:35Z aap: i mean the 6 char restriction is one of ITS, not maclisp
2021-04-03T21:37:40Z Odin-: jcowan: The restriction didn't come from maclisp, but ITS.
2021-04-03T21:37:56Z jcowan: Ah, true.
2021-04-03T21:38:34Z jcowan: I cut my teeth on OS/8, which was 8+2 with no hierarchy
2021-04-03T21:38:42Z pjb: Well, it wasn't really a restriction, it was an optimization. Implemented in LISP 1.  You can see it in the sources of LISP 1.5.
2021-04-03T21:39:30Z pjb: Basically, 36-bit hardware, 6-bit characters. Strings were represented using lists of words containing packed 6-character.
2021-04-03T21:39:42Z aap: ITS filenames are literally 6 + 6
2021-04-03T21:39:46Z pjb: So if you used more than 6-character symbols, they used more than one word.
2021-04-03T21:39:56Z aap: usually filename + extension
2021-04-03T21:40:18Z aap: so it would have been extremely unusual to call something by a name longer than 6 chars
2021-04-03T21:40:39Z pjb: unix too was developped on such a system (18-bit words), hence creat and similar function names.
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2021-04-03T21:41:01Z aap: pdp-7 unix used 2 chars per word
2021-04-03T21:41:11Z pjb: 9-bit chars?
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2021-04-03T21:41:17Z aap: no, ascii
2021-04-03T21:41:26Z aap: so, yes, i guess
2021-04-03T21:41:29Z aap: but still just ascii
2021-04-03T21:41:41Z aap: ITS used sixbit
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2021-04-03T21:43:10Z pjb: That said, indeed, one could wish more people used more unique names.  I liked IBM naming scheme. Like IEBFR14; there's no ambiguity.
2021-04-03T21:43:32Z pjb: On the other hand, try to search for "true"…
2021-04-03T21:44:01Z pjb: You need to add eg. true man page for some semblance of uniqueness and specificity.
2021-04-03T21:44:26Z aap: does an empty file need a manpage? :)
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2021-04-03T21:44:40Z aap: i guess it's no longer an empty file these days...
2021-04-03T21:45:08Z pjb: aap: the story of true matches the story of iebfr14.  You'd be surprised by the commit list.
2021-04-03T21:45:23Z aap: ah
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2021-04-03T21:45:50Z pjb: https://github.com/coreutils/coreutils/commits/master/src/true.c
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2021-04-03T21:47:23Z aap: pjb: disgusting
2021-04-03T21:47:28Z aap: true used to be an empty file
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2021-04-03T22:21:46Z pjb: aap: an empty file was clearly a bug for true(1)…
2021-04-03T22:22:04Z aap: is that so?
2021-04-03T22:22:29Z phoe: why are we discussing true(1) again
2021-04-03T22:22:46Z White_Flame: </tautology>
2021-04-03T22:23:43Z aap: something about file names
2021-04-03T22:23:45Z pjb: phoe: naming schemes iebfr14 vs true
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2021-04-03T23:29:10Z jcowan: aap: they should have used UTF-9
2021-04-03T23:29:40Z aap: well, ken did eventually invent utf-8 at least :)
2021-04-03T23:30:00Z jcowan: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4042
2021-04-03T23:30:37Z aap: these were more of a joke, right?
2021-04-03T23:31:42Z jcowan: CHeck out the publication date.  BUt Crispin really was a PDP-10 programmer
2021-04-03T23:32:12Z aap: oh i didn't even realize it was from him
2021-04-03T23:32:23Z jcowan: UTF-18 should be replaced by UTF-18+, which would represent planes 0,1,2,3 instead of 0,1,F,10
2021-04-03T23:34:39Z jcowan: Gotta love this: "We are now in the process of implementing support for nonet-based text files and automated transformation between septet, octet, and nonet textual data."
2021-04-03T23:34:59Z aap: i'm not even sure whether this is a joke
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2021-04-03T23:35:10Z aap: they're still using pdp-10s at XKL
2021-04-03T23:35:11Z aeth: UTF-18+ sounds like a media rating scheme in some random country.
2021-04-03T23:35:22Z aap: although i hear they're using a custom OS these days
2021-04-03T23:36:56Z jcowan: Compuserve ran a modified TOPS-10 for a very long time, which is why Compuserve emails were 7xxxx,xxxx@compuserve.co,m
2021-04-03T23:38:57Z jcowan: I also devised UTF-6, an almost upward compatible extension of Sixbit, but I didnt write an RFC, so I've forgotten the details
2021-04-03T23:39:28Z aeth: What Common Lisp do people here use for PDP-10s?
2021-04-03T23:39:44Z aap: no common lisps unfortunately. but maclisp!
2021-04-03T23:40:47Z aap: you can all come to #pdp-10 if you want :)
2021-04-03T23:42:02Z aeth: But why would I run a PDP VM when I could just run a Windows 98 VM?
2021-04-03T23:42:18Z aap: style points
2021-04-03T23:43:31Z aeth: I wonder if SBCL 0.6.8 runs on Windows 98
2021-04-03T23:44:08Z aap: actually implementing a common lisp for PDP-10 would be interesting
2021-04-03T23:44:15Z aeth: (hmm, 0.6.8 is the oldest tagged version... SBCL news on the website goes back to 0.6.0, though)
2021-04-03T23:45:37Z jcowan: The general idea is to preempt 077, Del in ECMA-1, to show that a non-Sixbit character has been encoded in the general style of UTF-8
2021-04-03T23:46:00Z jcowan: https://www.ecma-international.org/wp-content/uploads/ECMA-1_1st_edition_march_1963.pdf
2021-04-03T23:46:02Z aap: so utf-radix50 when?
2021-04-03T23:46:13Z jcowan: NEVER
2021-04-03T23:46:39Z jcowan: I did use to assign 16-bit magic numbers for binary data using RADIX50, though
2021-04-03T23:46:59Z moon-child: jcowan: sounds like it loses the big advantage of utf8, which is that you can always identify continuation bytes (sextets?)
2021-04-03T23:47:22Z moon-child: (though there may not be very much you can do about that ...)
2021-04-03T23:47:22Z jcowan: Yes.  Perhaps it's more like SRFI-7
2021-04-03T23:49:43Z jcowan: Ah, no, what it preempts is SI and SO, so because there are always both you can identify sequences.
2021-04-03T23:50:28Z moon-child: ah, cool
2021-04-03T23:51:20Z jcowan: buut it is less bounded than UTF-8
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2021-04-04T00:32:05Z jcowan: It should be possible to run CLISP using one of the several C compilers avaiilable for TOPS-10/20.
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2021-04-04T00:32:25Z jcowan: JIT is of coourse another story altogether
2021-04-04T00:32:35Z jcowan: (or native-code AOT)
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2021-04-04T03:04:34Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-04-04T03:06:21Z beach: jcowan: The "estimate" part is exactly that, i.e., branching.
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2021-04-04T11:46:43Z seok: any recommendations on a reference for format directives ?
2021-04-04T11:47:10Z Shinmera: clhs 22.3
2021-04-04T11:47:10Z specbot: Formatted Output: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_c.htm
2021-04-04T11:47:44Z seok: eh I know this one, looking for a nice card on one page xd
2021-04-04T11:48:36Z seok: Ah it's ok I'll use this http://clqr.boundp.org/clqr-letter-consec.pdf
2021-04-04T11:48:37Z seok: ty !'
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2021-04-04T12:18:24Z jcowan: gak, a 56-page "quick reference"
2021-04-04T12:21:28Z semz: CL is a big boy
2021-04-04T12:22:26Z semz: it's rare that people go for completeness with these refereces though, nice to see
2021-04-04T12:22:54Z beach: What makes you think Common Lisp is male?
2021-04-04T12:25:37Z no-defun-allowed: Provided that seeking for a feature is relatively fast (hopefully with sublinear search complexity), a reference could be large and quick.
2021-04-04T12:25:49Z semz: I was going to reach for "lisping (the impediment) is more common in males"
2021-04-04T12:25:51Z semz: but it turns out there is no difference
2021-04-04T12:28:19Z no-defun-allowed: It would be about as creative as the joke I decided to scrap about gendering based on paren/bracket shape.
2021-04-04T12:29:51Z no-defun-allowed: But "big boy" is more common than "big girl" or "big child" or so on, possibly due to alliteration.
2021-04-04T12:30:17Z beach: So "great girl" then?
2021-04-04T12:31:22Z no-defun-allowed: Now that you mention it, I haven't a clue. Human languages are like that.
2021-04-04T12:35:52Z jcowan: I agree about "apt alliteration's artful aid", but I think it's more about gendering things masculine by default, even in natural-gender languages like English
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2021-04-04T12:44:00Z Nilby: Common Lisp is female becuase it take the seed of my idea and turns it into a living thing, but it's male becuase it fucks me over every day while forcing me to do menial labor for free, but it's non-gendered because it's just a programming language specification.
2021-04-04T12:47:03Z lotuseater: like that
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2021-04-04T13:08:32Z splittist: I would be grateful for anyone having a look at https://github.com/splittist/printfcl to see if it makes any sense.  Thanks...
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2021-04-04T13:12:45Z Shinmera: Looks neat. What's the use-case?
2021-04-04T13:13:13Z Shinmera: Translating stuff from C?
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2021-04-04T13:15:47Z splittist: Shinmera: Basically. Or having to reproduce some output format specified with some version of printf format strings.
2021-04-04T13:16:49Z Shinmera: Fair enough. Though I would have exactly liked to have %p, since there's no portable way currently to get the object identifier without doing weird stuff with dissecting print-unreadable-object's output.
2021-04-04T13:17:26Z splittist: Shinmera: exactly what I was looking for. trivial-identity awaits...
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2021-04-04T19:38:01Z Bike: are there any existing libraries to define functions for copying objects? i'm contemplating how to duplicate a complicated data structure and don't want to duplicate work as well
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2021-04-04T19:39:24Z Bike: for example to define things like "when copying this kind of object in this context, this field's value doesn't need to be copied, but this other one's should be"
2021-04-04T19:39:32Z Bike: and of course handling circularity
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2021-04-04T19:43:51Z Shinmera: I've only seen systems that handle this in the context of serialising to another format, but not copying directly.
2021-04-04T19:44:09Z Bike: yeah, i thought that might be the case...
2021-04-04T19:44:11Z Shinmera: Ime typically the copying logic required is either trivial, or complex enough to be better as an internal function.
2021-04-04T19:45:10Z Bike: mostly i'm dreading having to write such an internal function. guess it might be inevitable
2021-04-04T19:45:21Z Shinmera: Even automated traversal of object structures is fraught with issues. I moved away from a system in my game engine that automatically scanned for resources to allocate to a manual system based on a single generic function. Way less hassle and way less error prone.
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2021-04-04T19:48:19Z scymtym: there was this "metacopy" system. i think it had problems, but maybe there are some ideas in there
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2021-04-04T19:54:00Z Bike: i'll look at it, thanks.
2021-04-04T19:54:10Z Bike: i guess game resources are probably similar levels of complicated to what i'm doing.
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2021-04-04T21:26:19Z gigamonkey: Sup folks.
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2021-04-04T21:27:29Z varjag: howdy
2021-04-04T21:27:49Z moon-child: yo
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2021-04-04T21:29:41Z gigamonkey: minion: you still here?
2021-04-04T21:29:42Z minion: what's up?
2021-04-04T21:29:45Z gigamonkey: cool cool
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2021-04-04T21:39:11Z aaronm04: hi all. Do you know how I would fix "No Lisp subprocess; see variable 'inferior-lisp-buffer'" in Emacs? I want to use SLIME :)
2021-04-04T21:40:06Z aaronm04: seen when selecting Lisp->Eval defun while editing a .lisp file
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2021-04-04T21:42:07Z charles`: aaronm04: you have to have start a lisp process. step 1: have a common lisp installed, step 2 run M-x slime ( think it is)
2021-04-04T21:42:41Z Bike: you may need to inform your slime what lisp to run by setting inferior-lisp-program.
2021-04-04T21:42:56Z aaronm04: ahh ok. I did run M-x slime
2021-04-04T21:43:32Z aaronm04: and I have this in my .emacs: (setq inferior-lisp-program "sbcl")
2021-04-04T21:46:17Z aaronm04: aha
2021-04-04T21:46:38Z aaronm04: after running Lisp->Run inferior lisp, everything seems to be working. I can Eval defun
2021-04-04T21:46:45Z aaronm04: sorry for the noise lol
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2021-04-04T22:28:05Z Josh_2: Are there any native lisp async libraries?
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2021-04-04T22:31:31Z no-defun-allowed: I think SBCL has a function in its socket library which calls poll/epoll and can be used to write a driver loop. But in my opinion the best async Lisp experience would be to implement green threads, use a driver loop to wake threads blocked on IO, and then implement usocket and friends using that.
2021-04-04T22:36:25Z Josh_2: I think I will just uses promises
2021-04-04T22:37:17Z Gnuxie[m]: rip conditions
2021-04-04T22:37:37Z no-defun-allowed: "Where should I get silver for making cutlery from?" "*answer*" "Never mind, I think I will make a spoon."
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2021-04-04T22:38:30Z Bike: there are multiple promises implementations in lisp already, at least
2021-04-04T22:38:37Z Josh_2: Yeh
2021-04-04T22:38:40Z Bike: so the spoon doesn't have to be newly forged
2021-04-04T22:39:12Z Josh_2: I don't want to make anything, this is why I asked if a library exists
2021-04-04T22:39:17Z no-defun-allowed: You still find yourself with an async library (or entirely straight-line synchronous code) though.
2021-04-04T22:41:02Z no-defun-allowed: Still, I would find myself either writing code with blocking threads, or implementing enough of do-notation to not go mad with callbacks.
2021-04-04T22:43:30Z Josh_2: Well I'm okay with synchronous code as well
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2021-04-04T22:50:26Z edgar-rft: Josh_2: there's Bordeaux Threads if that's the kind of "async" you're talking about -> https://common-lisp.net/project/bordeaux-threads/
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2021-04-04T22:53:26Z Josh_2: Thanks edgar-rft xD
2021-04-04T22:53:44Z no-defun-allowed: edgar-rft: "async" usually refers to asynchronous IO, which I can only really describe as having an OS thread block on a single connection (unless there are no more connections to block on). Think poll, Unix AIO, io_uring, etc.
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2021-04-04T22:54:49Z edgar-rft: "async" refers to anything asynchronous you can imagine and is a very broad and unprecise term
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2021-04-05T01:35:26Z huonib: can someone help me with this? I am working on a project and I am looking to use a lisp that compiles to a small binary - either ecl, chez, or chicken scheme
2021-04-05T01:35:43Z huonib: right now I am trying this with ecl but I am getting an error: https://gist.github.com/huonib/9ddddc7998c43681795309233feeeb5c
2021-04-05T01:36:09Z huonib: I used quickproject to create the project, all I did was add the hello function
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2021-04-05T01:36:14Z Bike: What is the error?
2021-04-05T01:37:02Z huonib: I updated the gist with it - sorry
2021-04-05T01:37:14Z huonib: Condition of type: UNDEFINED-FUNCTION
2021-04-05T01:37:15Z huonib: The function HELLO is undefined.
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2021-04-05T01:37:59Z huonib: Bike: thank you for taking your time
2021-04-05T01:38:21Z Bike: wait, sorry, what is make-build? i don't have that function in my asdf and i don't see it in the manual.
2021-04-05T01:38:26Z huonib: ... to help. god I am bad at writing.
2021-04-05T01:38:52Z huonib: Bike: found it here: https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/static/manual/System-building.html#Compiling-with-ASDF
2021-04-05T01:38:58Z Bike: oh, it's only defined on ecl
2021-04-05T01:39:32Z Bike: well, my guess is that when the program starts, *package* is something other than helloworld
2021-04-05T01:39:42Z Bike: you could check by typing *package* in the repl there and seeing what it is
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2021-04-05T01:41:59Z huonib: Bike: that was it indeed
2021-04-05T01:43:01Z huonib: when does the package change automatically? I thought slime did that for some reason.
2021-04-05T01:44:41Z huonib: Bike: thank you so much though, that was really helpful
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2021-04-05T01:48:22Z Bike: yeah, no prob. i don't know how to use make-build, but you could probably set it in :prologue-code?
2021-04-05T01:48:48Z Bike: if i'm reading the asdf changelogs correctly, make-build is deprecaed
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2021-04-05T01:50:53Z Bike: probably the new lisp starts in cl-user by default.
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2021-04-05T02:08:41Z huonib: huh - I didn't have that much faith in ECL, since I heard nobody really uses it, but it generates a binary of 2.1 MB whereas chicken scheme is at 4.6 MB
2021-04-05T02:08:44Z huonib: that's impressive
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2021-04-05T02:09:21Z Bike: ecl is actively developed. i don't use it regularly but it sounds like it works fine
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2021-04-05T02:10:12Z huonib: Bike: that is great to hear
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2021-04-05T02:12:11Z huonib: Bike: I am a complete idiot, so bear with me, but chicken scheme can compile without the runtime - is that possible with ecl?
2021-04-05T02:12:39Z Bike: what, like freestanding C?
2021-04-05T02:13:24Z huonib: Bike: https://wiki.call-cc.org/generating%20the%20smallest%20possible,%20self-contained%20executable
2021-04-05T02:13:48Z huonib: Bike: what do you mean by freestanding C?
2021-04-05T02:15:10Z Bike: the C standard uses the term 'freestanding' to mean implementations that almost entirely lack runtime support
2021-04-05T02:15:31Z Bike: but i see this chicken example still uses the c runtime
2021-04-05T02:15:38Z Bike: just not the chicken runtime
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2021-04-05T02:15:52Z huonib: oh, sorry, I should have been clearer.
2021-04-05T02:15:57Z Bike: i have no idea if ecl supports this
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2021-04-05T02:17:02Z Bike: i think there's an #ecl channel, and also jackdaniel comes around here and is a maintainer
2021-04-05T02:17:08Z Bike: if this isn't covered in the manual
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2021-04-05T02:19:02Z Bike: trying to reduce binary size is kind of a niche concern, so support could be lacking
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2021-04-05T02:19:17Z huonib: Bike: thank you
2021-04-05T02:19:19Z Bike: you can link the ecl runtime as a shared object, i'm pretty sure
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2021-04-05T03:01:34Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-04-05T03:05:11Z raeda: Good morning!
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2021-04-05T03:07:33Z beach: Hey raeda.  Did you get in touch with easye about ABCL?
2021-04-05T03:07:54Z raeda: No, haven't heard back yet
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2021-04-05T05:25:27Z nigggg: Greetings
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2021-04-05T05:26:29Z beach: Hello nigggg.
2021-04-05T05:27:07Z beach: nigggg: Are you new here?  I don't recognize your nick.
2021-04-05T05:27:47Z nigggg: I'm on an alt
2021-04-05T05:27:57Z nigggg: I am equwal
2021-04-05T05:28:03Z beach: Oh, OK.
2021-04-05T05:29:01Z nigggg: Currently installing linux on my laptop because my old one had a fan malfunction.
2021-04-05T05:29:09Z nigggg: so alt
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2021-04-05T06:28:19Z susam: Good morning, everyone!
2021-04-05T06:28:28Z susam: Good morning, beach!
2021-04-05T06:28:48Z beach: Hello susam.
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2021-04-05T10:00:19Z luis: I've just noticed that SLIME's presentations weakly reference their respective object: they don't prevent the object from being GCed and if the object is GCed, the presentation is disabled (it turns into plain text). I'd never noticed this before. Is this how LispM/CLIM presentations work too?
2021-04-05T10:01:08Z loke[m]1: luis: that's not how they behaved in the past. I'm pretty sure I needed to C-x M-o to lose the references to them.
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2021-04-05T10:04:58Z luis: loke[m]1: I was under that impression too, but *object-to-presentation-id* and *presentation-id-to-object* have been weak hash-tables for well over a decade and I don't think the REPL has ever stored them anywhere but * ** ** / // //. At some point (2006-ish?) SBCL didn't support weak hash-tables.
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2021-04-05T10:06:41Z loke[m]1: luis: Perhaps the reference is held somewhere else. I just tried creating a large array, leaving it in a presentation and did a (gc :full t)
2021-04-05T10:06:53Z loke[m]1: I did several actually. And the presentation still works.
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2021-04-05T10:07:35Z luis: loke[m]1: did you evaluate enough subsequent forms to clear it from * ** ***?
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2021-04-05T10:08:36Z loke[m]1: The 5 evaluations of (gc :full t) should have been enough, but for good measure I did about 10 more evaluations of simple numbers followed by a few more gc's.
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2021-04-05T10:12:13Z luis: loke[m]1: how did you determine the presentation still works?
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2021-04-05T10:13:53Z luis: Try right clicking it.
2021-04-05T10:14:38Z loke[m]1: luis: Well, I went to it and typed C-c C-v TAB. But yes, right-clicking also works.
2021-04-05T10:16:07Z luis: loke[m]1: Well, I'm stumped. That's not the behaviour I'm seeing.
2021-04-05T10:16:31Z loke[m]1: I use the version of SLIME synced from the git repository today.
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2021-04-05T10:17:37Z luis: We need a third volunteer to try and reproduce this. :-)
2021-04-05T10:18:08Z luis looks around
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2021-04-05T10:19:31Z luis: Anyone with SBCL and SLIME on hand?
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2021-04-05T10:20:39Z no-defun-allowed: I remember copying the presentation to another buffer, and then doing some more stuff, including clearing output, then the presentation would stop working.
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2021-04-05T10:22:10Z luis: no-defun-allowed: that's expected since clearing output clears presentations (or it tries to, I'm baffled by that particular bit of code too, but that's another story)
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2021-04-05T10:22:53Z no-defun-allowed: Ah, I am talking about something else. /me rereads
2021-04-05T10:24:20Z no-defun-allowed: CLIM presentations would strongly reference from memory, else they could not be ACCEPTed or used for gesture translation(?) later, and I don't recall reading that the implementation could allow ACCEPT to stop working for whatever reason.
2021-04-05T10:24:30Z luis: So, the test case is: evaluate the following forms in the slime-repl one by one: (make-array 10), 1, 2, 3, (gc :full t) then right click (or C-c C-v TAB) the array presentation. I get "object no longer recorded" but it works for loke[m]1 for some reason.
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2021-04-05T10:25:02Z no-defun-allowed: But I also agree that I thought *slime-repl* served as "roots" somehow.
2021-04-05T10:25:33Z luis: We're all in agreement about how it /should/ work so far. :-)
2021-04-05T10:25:51Z no-defun-allowed: Huh, it does in fact say "Object no longer recorded" in the right-click menu, and then it ceases to be clickable.
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2021-04-05T10:26:05Z luis: Ah, a confirmation. That's nice.
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2021-04-05T10:27:32Z luis: no-defun-allowed: thanks. loke[m]1: not sure why you're getting different results.
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2021-04-05T10:28:17Z rick-monster: luis I couldn't repro (assuming 1,2,3 means wait 3 seconds)
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2021-04-05T10:29:06Z no-defun-allowed: It means to evaluate 1, then evaluate 2, then evaluate 3, in order to clear out the "history" variables.
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2021-04-05T10:31:08Z rick-monster: in that case I can repro - C-c C-v TAB results in "Attempt to access unrecorded object (id 94)"
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2021-04-05T10:34:31Z rick-monster: software versions for repro: sbcl 2.0.8, swank/slime 2.26.1, linux.
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2021-04-05T10:40:06Z luis: rick-monster: thanks.
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2021-04-05T11:03:24Z rick-monster: I'm dusting off an old music-control framework I wrote for lisp-on-linux and would like to discuss an aspect of the design.
2021-04-05T11:03:37Z rick-monster: the project is called 'serial hub' because it aggregates events from serial devices (eg midi, OSC, other usb music-controller peripherals). Currently each serial device or network socket has dedicated blocking thread to translate incoming serial data from a stream to lisp object. lisp objects from various sources are aggregated by sending them into a threadsafe channel (lisp library calispel). application layer simply re
2021-04-05T11:03:37Z rick-monster: out of channel - easy event loop programming.
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2021-04-05T11:05:38Z rick-monster: thought for a while I should make the framework single-threaded. Rather than threads aggregate threadsafe channel, better to poll a group of file-descriptors in event-loop idle phase. I suspect this makes timing more deterministic when run on single-core linux.
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2021-04-05T11:10:25Z rick-monster: now, 2 questions...
2021-04-05T11:10:38Z rick-monster: 1. will I run into horrible insurmountable problems with this file-descriptor-polling approach (sbcl/ccl for linux x86/ARM) when USB cable of a serial device is unexpectedly pulled?
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2021-04-05T11:11:19Z no-defun-allowed: I think polling allows you to detect errors somehow, but I forgot how.
2021-04-05T11:11:22Z rick-monster: 2. is there a good existing lisp library which will handle the file-descriptor-polling part?
2021-04-05T11:11:46Z luis: rick-monster: if you're going to serialize event handling anyway polling a group of fds seems better, but nothing beats testing. iolib seems like a good candidate for that.
2021-04-05T11:11:56Z no-defun-allowed: There's an array of file descriptors and flags you pass, and one of those flags is to poll for errors.
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2021-04-05T11:16:43Z rick-monster: no-defun-allowed: think I remember previously hitting a case where reading a now-unplugged USB-device file descriptor raises a signal which got mis-handled by sbcl causing a meltdown. Maybe this poll-for-errors is the trick I was missing
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2021-04-05T11:17:30Z no-defun-allowed: You might also want to handle the signal then.
2021-04-05T11:17:39Z luis: rick-monster: that seems like a problem that would happen regardless of polling strategy.
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2021-04-05T11:19:47Z rick-monster: luis, no-defun-allowed thanks for your input. think I need to approach the problem with a new mini-project which simply reads/writes a single serial device via iolib, but correctly detects and handles USB hotplugging
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2021-04-05T11:52:47Z kevingal: I'm trying to implement streams using macros. So I can write (scons (/ 1 0) empty-stream) and it'll expand to something like (cons (quote (/ 1 0)) nil).
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2021-04-05T11:52:57Z kevingal: Then the head can be evaluated later.
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2021-04-05T11:53:50Z kevingal: But of course I've found that this doesn't work when I do something like (scons (+ a b) empty-stream) because the "a" and "b" are no longer bound when I try to evaluate the head.
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2021-04-05T11:55:06Z kevingal: Is there a way to capture the environment? Or is that a pants-on-head thing to do?
2021-04-05T11:55:45Z Xach: kevingal: you could expand into (lambda () ...) and funcall it to get the value.
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2021-04-05T11:56:44Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, usually you implement lazy conses with a macro that expands to something with (lambda () <form>) wrapping the car and cdr.
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2021-04-05T12:03:24Z kevingal: Riiiight, that makes sense. Thank you.
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2021-04-05T12:08:20Z aggin: anyone here ever tried using lquery with cl-arrows ?
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2021-04-05T12:32:11Z aggin: https://pastebin.com/zeiWE1KL
2021-04-05T12:32:25Z aggin: Why is lquery:$ acting up ?
2021-04-05T12:32:50Z aggin: when I put lquery:$ under a different function name, it works perfectly fine
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2021-04-05T12:35:46Z aggin: https://pastebin.com/GYz1WbtN
2021-04-05T12:35:50Z aggin: this works perfectly fine
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2021-04-05T12:38:43Z Bike: are the macroexpansions different? other than the name obviously
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2021-04-05T12:39:16Z aggin: from what the SBCL error tells me, I think so
2021-04-05T12:39:35Z Bike: have you looked at them? like with macroexpand-1?
2021-04-05T12:39:54Z aggin: I did it with sly-macroexpand-1, it gave the one I've sent
2021-04-05T12:39:57Z aggin: the expected one
2021-04-05T12:40:16Z aggin: but when doing macroexpand-1 in the function, it gives an error before I can see the end result
2021-04-05T12:41:41Z aggin: idk why the 1st arg to -<>> goes to the 2nd arg
2021-04-05T12:41:50Z phoe: for whatever reason lquery:$ funges the CONCATENATE call
2021-04-05T12:41:55Z aggin: *2nd arg to -<>> goes to the 1st arg
2021-04-05T12:41:59Z aggin: phoe: yeah
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2021-04-05T12:42:20Z phoe: the arrow expands into (AREF (LQUERY:$ DATA (CONCATENATE 'STRING ".cb-lv-scr-mtch-hdr a[href*=" QUERY "].text-bold")) 0)
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2021-04-05T12:42:29Z aggin: which is what I want
2021-04-05T12:42:34Z phoe: which is what does not compile
2021-04-05T12:42:39Z aggin: but when I run it, the SBCL error shows me something else
2021-04-05T12:42:47Z Bike: oh, yeah, looking at $ there, it doesn't look like you can just put normal code in there?
2021-04-05T12:43:03Z aggin: wdym ?
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2021-04-05T12:43:12Z aggin: putting something other than lquery:$ ?
2021-04-05T12:43:14Z aggin: yeah that works fine
2021-04-05T12:43:39Z Bike: i man, you're doing ($ (concatenate ...) ...), and it looks like $ does something with lists other than normally executing them?
2021-04-05T12:43:47Z Bike: from the docstring
2021-04-05T12:43:56Z Bike: https://github.com/Shinmera/lquery/blob/master/lquery.lisp#L91-L96
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2021-04-05T12:44:46Z aggin: hmm so I think concatenate is in LQUERY-MACROS
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2021-04-05T12:45:07Z phoe: yes, looks like $ does lots of stuff under the hood and it implements its own DSL in place of stndard Lisp
2021-04-05T12:45:09Z Shinmera: Lquery treats function names specially to avoid requiring you to prefix them all with the package name.
2021-04-05T12:45:24Z aggin: guess I should use a let statement for concatenate
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2021-04-05T13:47:21Z kslt1: I'm using emacs/SLIME/SBCL. I wanna use a testing framework for my project from the start. Are there any "survey's" of quicklisp installable testing frameworks I can take a look at?
2021-04-05T13:47:47Z Shinmera: Sabra said he'd make a survey some time, but I don't think he ever found the time to actually do it.
2021-04-05T13:47:56Z phoe: kslt1: how much do you want from your test framework?
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2021-04-05T13:48:26Z kslt1: I dunno yet.
2021-04-05T13:48:46Z Shinmera: I wrote Parachute, so I'm biased towards that.
2021-04-05T13:48:49Z phoe: the absolute minimalism is using DEFUN over ASSERT
2021-04-05T13:48:58Z phoe: a step above absolute minimalism is using 1AM
2021-04-05T13:49:32Z kslt1: Was hoping to build on appetite based on the survey.
2021-04-05T13:49:35Z phoe: above that there's, in random order: fiasco, parachute, fiveam, prove, tens of other test frameworks that are more or less popular
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2021-04-05T13:51:24Z kslt1: I got interesting looking at the Common Lisp Cookbook example using "prove".
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2021-04-05T13:52:50Z kslt1: I'll do a little more research using above list as starting point. Thanks!
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2021-04-05T14:25:41Z MichaelRaskin: phoe: I am pretty sure I wrote assert-based example/test sets without defun, so _absolute_ minimalism is just assert
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2021-04-05T14:40:58Z kslt1: prove docs mentioned prove becoming obsolete, which made me wonder about it.
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2021-04-05T14:41:12Z phoe: MichaelRaskin: oh right, sure
2021-04-05T14:41:22Z phoe: if you want compile-time testing then just ASSERT is enough
2021-04-05T14:41:40Z phoe: DEFUN is just to defer testing to execution time
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2021-04-05T15:04:33Z shka_: i kinda like prove
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2021-04-05T15:04:46Z shka_: it remains simple, but it integrates with the asdf
2021-04-05T15:05:37Z shka_: didn't tried rove yet
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2021-04-05T15:16:46Z mfiano: FInd it odd that prove was deprecated in favor of rove, when rove doesn't even have all the testing constructs prove does
2021-04-05T15:22:49Z jackdaniel: who deprecated it?
2021-04-05T15:23:08Z phoe: the author
2021-04-05T15:23:45Z jackdaniel: mhm
2021-04-05T15:23:53Z mfiano: More like obsoleted, but yeah
2021-04-05T15:24:54Z jackdaniel: I like 5am - totally not sexy but quite dependable
2021-04-05T15:25:02Z mfiano: I still use prove. I've tried other frameworks and had some bugs with false positives and never really needed anything more from prove. It does use ASDF in a deprecated way, causing warnings.
2021-04-05T15:25:16Z mfiano: But whatevs
2021-04-05T15:36:45Z kevingal: Is there a way to define self-referential lexical variables? I'm trying to define an infinite stream in terms of itself, which worked with DEFPARAMETER, but when I try to use LET or LET*, I get an unbound variable error.
2021-04-05T15:37:26Z kevingal: E.g. (defparameter ones (stream-cons 1 ones)) is the infinite stream of 1s (example from SICP).
2021-04-05T15:37:51Z Bike: clhs labels
2021-04-05T15:37:52Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_flet_.htm
2021-04-05T15:37:59Z phoe: that's for functions though
2021-04-05T15:38:08Z Bike: you can use this for almost any use of scheme letrec
2021-04-05T15:38:16Z phoe: I think you might need to quote ONES in there and explicitly call SYMBOL-VALUE on it when you want to retrieve the value
2021-04-05T15:38:46Z phoe: e.g. something like (defparameter *ones* (cons 1 (lambda () (symbol-value '*ones*))))
2021-04-05T15:39:27Z Bike: (defparameter *ones* (labels ((thunk () (cons 1 #'thunk))) (thunk)))
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2021-04-05T15:48:59Z phoe: oooh, like *this*
2021-04-05T15:49:05Z phoe: TIL
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2021-04-05T16:00:56Z Bike: http://ix.io/2V85 attempt at general letrec
2021-04-05T16:01:01Z Bike: results in a pointless thunk here, tho
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2021-04-05T16:01:55Z Bike: also, it will hang if your definition doesn't delay the use of itself, so don't do that.
2021-04-05T16:02:18Z Bike: i'm pretty sure i wrote something like t his years ago for this exact purpose and then never used it for anything
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2021-04-05T16:02:54Z kevingal: Hmmm, (let ((ones (stream-cons 1 ones))) ones) actually works. I'm trying to debug why my more complicated example is failing.
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2021-04-05T16:04:24Z Bike: that really shouldn't work. is it possible you have ONES defined as a global variable?
2021-04-05T16:05:05Z kevingal: Ahh, you're right.
2021-04-05T16:05:27Z Bike: my thing works on (letrec ((ones (scons 1 threes)) (threes (scons 3 ones))) ones), neato
2021-04-05T16:06:24Z Bike: oh, and bonus tip: you can do (makunbound 'ones) to make something stop being a global variable
2021-04-05T16:06:46Z phoe: Bike: but it'll still be special
2021-04-05T16:06:55Z phoe: no portable way other than UNINTERN to solve that
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2021-04-05T16:08:52Z kevingal: Thanks for the tips! I would normally give them earmuffs but I was copying from SICP :D
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2021-04-05T16:14:53Z kevingal: phoe: the SYMBOL-VALUE approach didn't work, I'm afraid! (scdr (let ((wuns (scons 1 (symbol-value 'thingy)))) wuns))
2021-04-05T16:15:18Z kevingal: So do I understand correctly that the variable is only available for capture within the body of the LET?
2021-04-05T16:15:36Z kevingal: Sorry, that should be: (scdr (let ((wuns (scons 1 (symbol-value 'wuns)))) wuns))
2021-04-05T16:15:40Z Bike: yes, variables are only bound by let within the body of the let.
2021-04-05T16:15:55Z Bike: also, symbol-value is about dynamic variables, not lexical variables, so it's probably not relevant to your question.
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2021-04-05T16:19:26Z Bike: sicp is using LETREC for this, not LET, right?
2021-04-05T16:21:14Z kevingal: So far it has only used DEFINE.
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2021-04-05T16:22:21Z Bike: oh, well, okay.
2021-04-05T16:22:57Z Bike: top level definitions can be recursive, obviously. for recursive local definitions you can't use LET since it doesn't make the bindings available to the value-forms.
2021-04-05T16:23:26Z Bike: LETREC does, but it doesn't exist in the common lisp standard. instead you have to use labels, which is similar, but only allows binding functions.
2021-04-05T16:24:25Z kevingal: Gotcha, that's very helpful, thanks.
2021-04-05T16:26:16Z kevingal: I think for now I'll just steal your version of LETREC, haha.
2021-04-05T16:27:29Z Bike: keep in mind i wrote it in two minutes and didn't test it, so it may bite
2021-04-05T16:28:38Z Bike: also it can be much more simply written with mutation
2021-04-05T16:29:03Z Bike: (let (ones) (setf ones (scons 1 ones)) ones)
2021-04-05T16:29:09Z Bike: i didn't write it that way because i forgot
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2021-04-05T16:41:22Z Nilby: letrec etc is not needed for this, cons-stream is just a macro. you just have to make delay/force which could most simply be quote/eval or quote/symbol-value.
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2021-04-05T16:41:39Z pjb: kevingal: the problem is that you wrote stream-cons wrong.
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2021-04-05T16:42:38Z Bike: eval would be even worse than my overcomplicated letrec macro.
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2021-04-05T16:46:16Z kevingal: Howso? My stream-cons / scons macro expands to a cons with both of the elements wrapped in a lambda.
2021-04-05T16:47:04Z Bike: well, the relevant way eval won't help is that it cannot access lexical variables.
2021-04-05T16:47:53Z kevingal: I initially tried using quote, but that didn't capture surrounding variables so this gave an error: (let ((a 1) (b 2)) (scons (/ a b) the-empty-stream).
2021-04-05T16:48:06Z Bike: right.
2021-04-05T16:48:13Z kevingal: (I was pestering people in the channel about this earlier).
2021-04-05T16:49:17Z pjb: kevingal: https://termbin.com/onknp
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2021-04-05T16:51:00Z pjb: kevingal: but yes, there's no let form in CL that evaluate the initialization form in a scope where the variable is defined.  We'd have to write a letrec macro…
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2021-04-05T16:52:35Z huonib: does anyone know how to create a static binary with ecl?
2021-04-05T16:52:42Z huonib: I posted on #ecl too
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2021-04-05T17:05:30Z shka_: how can I get the current condition in the restart-case?
2021-04-05T17:05:50Z shka_: uhm, i think that this is wrong question
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2021-04-05T17:08:32Z Bike: it would have to be passed to the restart.
2021-04-05T17:09:54Z shka_: kevingal: you can fake it with labels, as already demonstrated
2021-04-05T17:10:10Z shka_: Bike: yeah, i realized that
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2021-04-05T17:20:39Z pjb: shka_: (loop for i below 10 do (with-simple-restart (continue "continue") (if (zerop (random 2)) (invoke-restart 'continue)) (princ i))) #| 25679 --> nil |#
2021-04-05T17:20:43Z pjb: shka_: no condition.
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2021-04-05T17:49:54Z shka_: uh, it is solved
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2021-04-05T21:29:56Z jmercouris: there is no way to safely call C right? because CFFI relies on the C code returning successfully right?
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2021-04-05T21:30:12Z jmercouris: and when it doesn't, there is no realistic way to recover state, no?
2021-04-05T21:30:50Z White_Flame: maybe launch a C thread and wait for its return as a side effect somewhere, with a timeout that blows away the thread?
2021-04-05T21:31:00Z White_Flame: but still, can't easily prevent C from trampling things
2021-04-05T21:31:05Z jmercouris: right
2021-04-05T21:31:14Z jmercouris: C can write anything to anywhere and always mess up your program
2021-04-05T21:31:18Z moon-child: iirc that's what go and haskell do
2021-04-05T21:31:22Z White_Flame: would need full long hardware transactional memory
2021-04-05T21:31:26Z jmercouris: unless you use some operating level system protection right?
2021-04-05T21:31:41Z jmercouris: maybe a completely different process or something
2021-04-05T21:31:52Z White_Flame: process would definitely work, but taht also means marshalling everything
2021-04-05T21:31:57Z White_Flame: you could fork to make the call, too
2021-04-05T21:32:10Z moon-child: still have to marshal the result
2021-04-05T21:32:18Z White_Flame: right, elminates half the marshallings
2021-04-05T21:32:20Z moon-child: if the c lib allocates, you need some way to figure out what it allocated and copy it through
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2021-04-05T21:32:32Z jmercouris: right, which involves complex wrapping
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2021-04-05T21:32:33Z moon-child: or force it to allocate shmem, which comes with its own issues
2021-04-05T21:32:44Z jmercouris: I was just watching this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4-YnLpLgtk
2021-04-05T21:32:50Z White_Flame: all depends if the C return value is standalone, or if you need C's side effects
2021-04-05T21:32:54Z jmercouris: and I was thinking if the C code could crash the Lisp machine
2021-04-05T21:33:23Z White_Flame: even in a separate process, C could kill the lisp process, unless you make it under another user with low permissions etc
2021-04-05T21:33:34Z White_Flame: how far do you want to go?
2021-04-05T21:33:45Z White_Flame: C could use privilege escalation attacks as well etc
2021-04-05T21:33:47Z jmercouris: fair enough
2021-04-05T21:33:59Z jmercouris: I am just thinking about GTK inadvertent failures
2021-04-05T21:34:06Z jmercouris: something like that
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2021-04-05T21:36:04Z jmercouris: I must say the Open Genera system looks very impressive
2021-04-05T21:36:09Z jmercouris: I understand I'm preaching to the choir here...
2021-04-05T21:36:28Z Nilby: You can safely call C.
2021-04-05T21:37:20Z Nilby: It's just difficult. You have to setup up memory barriers, page tables, processor rings, interrupt tables, etc.
2021-04-05T21:37:55Z Nilby: e.g. the O/S kernel safely calls C
2021-04-05T21:38:41Z jmercouris: right, but the O/S is designed for that
2021-04-05T21:38:44Z jmercouris: and it takes a lot of work
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2021-04-05T21:39:04Z jmercouris: I'm talking about within the realm of realistically possible for a single programmer to achieve
2021-04-05T21:39:15Z Nilby: But the coolest way it to run C as Lisp like Genera did.
2021-04-05T21:39:26Z moon-child: plenty of people have written their own OSes
2021-04-05T21:40:27Z moon-child: Nilby: that's what mezzano does.  (Well, it compiles llvm to cl, i think)
2021-04-05T21:41:08Z Nilby: Right. I think that's the nicest way for Lisp to call C, since then you can use the Lisp debugger and tools.
2021-04-05T21:44:44Z Nilby: I think the free Lisps could do a better job of making calling C safe. The commerical Lisps seem to do better.
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2021-04-05T21:50:26Z moon-child: I think there was another c compiler written in lisp.  Not sure how much progress it had made.  The mezzano thing I know was mature enough to run quake
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2021-04-05T22:03:05Z Nilby: moon-child: maybe you're thinking of https://github.com/vsedach/Vacietis
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2021-04-05T22:08:00Z moon-child: I think that was it.  Given some of the TODO items, it looks less far along than I thought
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2021-04-05T22:15:22Z jmercouris: that is incredibly impressive
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2021-04-06T01:26:22Z Josh_2: How can I connect to a lisp image that is already running in sly?
2021-04-06T01:26:52Z Josh_2: My emacs has frozen and I need to connect to the image it had running
2021-04-06T01:27:01Z Josh_2: I don't know if the underlying lisp image has frozen
2021-04-06T01:29:01Z tetrahedron: Josh_2: SLY or SLIME?
2021-04-06T01:29:04Z Josh_2: Sly
2021-04-06T01:29:10Z pjb: Josh_2: well, I don't know about sly, but if a swank server is running, you connect to it with M-x slime-connect RET
2021-04-06T01:29:30Z Josh_2: just got a connection refused
2021-04-06T01:29:32Z Josh_2: :(
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2021-04-06T01:30:12Z pjb: Of course, if there's no swank server listening, the only solution would be to do a gdb attach to the frozen emacs process, and to try to locate and use the socket connected to the image.
2021-04-06T01:30:13Z tetrahedron: https://joaotavora.github.io/sly/#Communication-style
2021-04-06T01:30:26Z pjb: Perhaps closing it would be enough, if the swank server loops on listening.
2021-04-06T01:30:34Z tetrahedron: i think this config var is what you need to fix to choose a lisp server
2021-04-06T01:31:31Z pjb: Josh_2: if this problem occurs often, you could prepare by running multiple swank servers in the lisp image, or some other listening server.
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2021-04-06T01:34:07Z Bike: this looks like slime's communication style, which isn't quite the same
2021-04-06T01:34:21Z Bike: seems there's an M-x sly-connect to use
2021-04-06T01:34:31Z Josh_2: I tried that
2021-04-06T01:34:33Z Bike: though you'll have to figure out what port the lisp is listening on if any
2021-04-06T01:34:36Z Josh_2: It must have frozen
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2021-04-06T01:35:01Z pjb: sudo netstat -tpnl |grep $your_lisp
2021-04-06T01:35:42Z Josh_2: nothing :(
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2021-04-06T01:37:56Z Josh_2: ah well
2021-04-06T01:39:07Z pjb: Without the -l you can see the open connections: sudo netstat -tpn |grep $your_lisp
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2021-04-06T01:39:34Z pjb: If it's still connected to emacs, as I said above, you can use gdb to attach to the frozen emacs, try to locate the socket and close it.
2021-04-06T01:39:42Z pjb: Or just kill the frozen emacs.
2021-04-06T01:40:18Z Josh_2: If I kill the frozen emacs that will shut the lisp image
2021-04-06T01:41:39Z pjb: So you mean that the lisp image was launched by emacs.
2021-04-06T01:41:43Z Josh_2: Yep
2021-04-06T01:41:44Z pjb: You're doomed.
2021-04-06T01:41:47Z Josh_2: Yeh xD
2021-04-06T01:42:08Z pjb: Instead, launch your lisp images separately, run a swank server in it, and use slime-connect instead of slime.
2021-04-06T01:42:19Z tetrahedron: how bad would that be Josh_2 :/
2021-04-06T01:42:26Z Josh_2: Not that bad tetrahedron
2021-04-06T01:42:35Z Josh_2: I will be able to fix it
2021-04-06T01:42:54Z Josh_2: pjb: I will do that, I have been meaning to create a deploy system for this. Lesson learned
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2021-04-06T02:13:10Z Josh_2: I export a macro called 'pkv' from my main package and in a sub package, I use this macro extensively, this package has (use <main package>) in its defpackage, why am I getting an error telling me that pkv isn't defined?
2021-04-06T02:14:53Z no-defun-allowed: Stupid question, use or :use?
2021-04-06T02:15:20Z Josh_2: :use
2021-04-06T02:15:59Z no-defun-allowed: I'm out of ideas then.
2021-04-06T02:16:00Z Bike: well, from that description it should work, so clearly there's some devil in the details
2021-04-06T02:16:11Z Bike: what particular error do you get? udnefined function?
2021-04-06T02:16:45Z Josh_2: yes
2021-04-06T02:17:00Z Bike: you might have to share source then
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2021-04-06T02:38:26Z Josh_2: Well
2021-04-06T02:38:28Z Josh_2: what part?
2021-04-06T02:39:08Z White_Flame: are you (in-package ..) correctly?
2021-04-06T02:39:15Z Bike: the package definitions, i guess
2021-04-06T02:39:37Z White_Flame: (as a 2nd stupid question)
2021-04-06T02:40:20Z Josh_2: White_Flame: yes I have (defpackage .. ) then (in-package ..) after
2021-04-06T02:43:28Z Josh_2: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2374#2374
2021-04-06T02:49:05Z White_Flame: and matrix-moonbot has pkv?
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2021-04-06T02:49:14Z Josh_2: all the other functions work
2021-04-06T02:49:20Z Josh_2: Yes it works in all the other modules defined that way
2021-04-06T02:49:27Z White_Flame: and it's actually exported?
2021-04-06T02:49:29Z Josh_2: Yep
2021-04-06T02:49:30Z Bike: what is the definition of matrix-moonbot.
2021-04-06T02:50:13Z White_Flame: also ensure matrix-moonbot:pk tab-completes with a single colon
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2021-04-06T02:50:32Z White_Flame: and/or (describe 'matrix-moonbot:pkv)
2021-04-06T02:51:19Z Josh_2: When I'm in the mm-module.jitsi it does
2021-04-06T02:51:49Z Josh_2: And then describing it while in that package it returns what I'd expect
2021-04-06T02:52:03Z Josh_2: 'pkv names a macro ... '
2021-04-06T02:54:11Z White_Flame: single-colon, and it says it's exported?
2021-04-06T02:54:31Z Bike: and it actually exists? (macro-function 'pkv) in mm-module.jitsi returns something?
2021-04-06T02:55:40Z White_Flame: if you just C-c C-c an expression, instead of C-c C-k'ing the entire file, it might not have actually run the in-package.  I've hit that on simple files
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2021-04-06T02:57:58Z Josh_2: Okay I fixed
2021-04-06T02:58:12Z Josh_2: Turns out it was absolutely nothing to do with that package...
2021-04-06T02:58:29Z White_Flame: let me guess, pvk vs pkv?
2021-04-06T02:58:43Z Josh_2: nope, I was using pkv before it was defined in a class definition file
2021-04-06T02:58:56Z White_Flame: that'll do it
2021-04-06T02:59:07Z White_Flame: it's weird not to load the full contents of a package before loading another one, though
2021-04-06T03:00:35Z Josh_2: Now I have another odd issue
2021-04-06T03:01:18Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-04-06T03:01:26Z White_Flame: re beach
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2021-04-06T03:07:04Z Josh_2: Okay
2021-04-06T03:08:44Z White_Flame: okey dokey
2021-04-06T03:08:46Z White_Flame: here we gokey
2021-04-06T03:09:15Z Josh_2: Fixed it
2021-04-06T03:09:28Z Josh_2: Man I got you all excited, sorry xD
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2021-04-06T03:09:53Z White_Flame: don't get me wrong, I'm happier to debug my own code than someone else's ;)
2021-04-06T03:12:42Z Josh_2: Well I guess having to restart was a blessing in disguise
2021-04-06T03:13:10Z White_Flame: restarting fixes a lot, but doesn't always tell you where the problem is, especially if it's dynamically munged
2021-04-06T03:13:26Z White_Flame: in the latter, you want to poke in the currently messed up state
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2021-04-06T03:18:44Z Josh_2: In this case restarting brought up a few problems
2021-04-06T03:18:53Z Josh_2: I hadn't stopped the image for about a week
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2021-04-06T03:19:01Z Josh_2: Best fix it now
2021-04-06T03:20:50Z moon-child: clhs loop
2021-04-06T03:20:50Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_loop.htm
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2021-04-06T13:31:23Z huonib: does anyone know of a compiled, dynamic language that doesn't use a garbage collector? I think an academic one might exist, but I am not sure
2021-04-06T13:31:41Z huonib: I am unsure if being dynamic requires a garbage collector... and I cannot find anything making that claim online
2021-04-06T13:34:06Z Krystof: I would not say that being dynamic requires a garbage collector
2021-04-06T13:34:44Z Krystof: As a concrete example, I would expect many Forths not to have a garbage collector
2021-04-06T13:35:43Z Bike: "dynamic" is a really vague term.
2021-04-06T13:35:43Z jackdaniel: put in your init (ext::disable-gc) and there you go, common lisp doesn't use the garbage collector ;-)
2021-04-06T13:36:00Z jackdaniel: don't expect it to work for long though
2021-04-06T13:36:29Z Krystof: I seem to recall stories about Lisp Machines needing to be power-cycled because they really really believed in tenure
2021-04-06T13:37:04Z Xach: I recently learned that Allegro has an operation "panify" to ensure that certain objects never grow old
2021-04-06T13:37:16Z Bike: heh.
2021-04-06T13:37:17Z Xach: (as in peter pan-ify)
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2021-04-06T13:40:39Z jcowan: huonib: GC is what you do to the heap, and Forth has no heap, only two stacks.  (Which at that is better than Fortran II, which has neither heap nor stack.)
2021-04-06T13:40:50Z jcowan: s/II/II or 66
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2021-04-06T13:44:00Z phantomics: Here's a question, not sure if this is completely off the wall ridiculous or not: how practical would it be to create a dialect or DSL within CL that runs code without GC? Meaning inside the code written in this DSL, you would have to manually manage memory and there would be functions for that
2021-04-06T13:44:36Z phantomics: Seems like something that could aid in doing realtime apps in CL
2021-04-06T13:44:40Z Bike: it would be difficult for objects in a managed space to refer to objects in an unmanaged space and vice versa. though it's possible. i mean, most implementations can handle foreign pointers.
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2021-04-06T13:45:19Z Bike: but if an object in unmanaged space has a pointer to an object in managed space, and the collector tries to move things, problems will happen
2021-04-06T13:45:59Z phantomics: Yeah, if CFFI is possible I'd think something like this should be, I don't know if CLs have any functions that let you turn off GC for objects created within a particular block of code
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2021-04-06T13:49:09Z Nilby: phantomics: When heavily using a C FFI objects you have to somewhat restrict yourself to such a dialect. Thank goodness for with- macros. There are also some foreign calls which necessitate turning off GC in some implementations.
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2021-04-06T13:52:13Z Shinmera: The easiest way to prevent GC is to just not allocate.
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2021-04-06T13:52:34Z Shinmera: And that's not even a joke. Allocate things once in a block, then manually recycle the objects. Presto, no GC.
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2021-04-06T13:53:11Z Shinmera: You don't need a DSL or whatever for that, just a lot of restraint and a lot of annoying manual recycling, just when you manually malloc/free.
2021-04-06T13:53:20Z Shinmera: *just like
2021-04-06T13:54:12Z Bike: it might be nice if the compiler could help by flagging function calls that allocate, though.
2021-04-06T13:54:27Z Shinmera: For sure. Being able to see which functions are pure would be nice.
2021-04-06T13:54:54Z Shinmera: But not even a DSL can help with that (you can't know what's going to allocate without help from the compiler)
2021-04-06T13:55:05Z Bike: yeah.
2021-04-06T13:55:13Z Nilby: I seem to remember there was a CL that compiled to non-GC'd C code.
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2021-04-06T13:57:06Z Nilby: and they reccommended just such restraint
2021-04-06T13:57:40Z Shinmera: One trick I've been making use of in Kandria recently is, since I know some things are going to run single-threaded, but I cannot stack-allocate certain complex objects, I can instead use load-time-value to create a local instance that'll be re-used. Certainly less handy and more dangerous than stack allocation, but it does the trick.
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2021-04-06T13:58:17Z Bike: there have been a couple times when i've been like "i know, i'll do the l-t-v trick" and then remembered other threads exist. very sad
2021-04-06T13:58:24Z Shinmera: Yep :(
2021-04-06T13:58:44Z Bike: takes me back to learning C and failing to understand static
2021-04-06T13:58:50Z Shinmera: Heh
2021-04-06T13:58:57Z mfiano: Shinmera: Interesting. Can you link to one part of your code that does that? I'd like to see it in context.
2021-04-06T13:59:49Z phoe: what is the issue with l-t-v in a multithreaded context? race conditions, or also something else?
2021-04-06T14:00:09Z Bike: well we're talking specifically about using a load-time-value object
2021-04-06T14:00:16Z Shinmera: if two threads access the same function at the same time they'll use the same instance and thrash it
2021-04-06T14:00:18Z Bike: there's only one, so if multiple threads try to use it at the same time, problems
2021-04-06T14:00:23Z semz: Nilby, I recall something like that as well, but iirc it had a supremely ungoogleable name like CL- or something...
2021-04-06T14:00:33Z Bike: same reason you can't use static in reentrant C functions
2021-04-06T14:00:41Z phoe: yes, so what I expected
2021-04-06T14:00:47Z Shinmera: mfiano: https://gitea.tymoon.eu/shinmera/kandria/src/branch/master/toolkit.lisp#L335 and tvec/tv+ things.
2021-04-06T14:01:15Z Shinmera: mfiano: Excuse gitea's shitty indentation
2021-04-06T14:01:32Z Shinmera: mfiano: For hit I know the object is not going to escape or be cached, so I can avoid allocating more than one instance.
2021-04-06T14:01:44Z Shinmera: mfiano: And for tvecs I know they're used as temporary value stores.
2021-04-06T14:02:16Z Shinmera: I could potentially stack-allocate the vecs, but as 3d-vectors is set up it can't do that most of the time.
2021-04-06T14:02:29Z Shinmera: (that's one of the things I'd like to rectify for v2)
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2021-04-06T14:03:34Z mfiano: AH I have recently start stack-allocating some vectors in my collision detection codes, and some lexical variables cannot be stack allocated because they call c2mop:s-i-a or something. Was trying to figure out what I could do about it
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2021-04-06T14:05:41Z mfiano: But I did make it more manageable. I had a OBB struct with like 20 slots, mostly all for mutating temp variables. It was a mess lol. Now there's only 5, with 2 of them being an unfortunate temp variable
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2021-04-06T14:10:27Z semz: Turns out I was thinking of CL_1 as defined by CLICC, but that does seem to have a GC, so probably a different project.
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2021-04-06T14:15:33Z beach: I define "dynamic language" as one with semantics defined by a suite of interactions.
2021-04-06T14:15:55Z beach: I use "interactive language" as a synonym.
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2021-04-06T14:18:33Z Josh_2: Whats the sbcl function to drop into the top level repl?
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2021-04-06T14:22:07Z Xach: Josh_2: toplevel-init (not an external symbol)
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2021-04-06T14:25:20Z Josh_2: Thanks
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2021-04-06T14:27:22Z jmercouris: anyone can think of a way of writing a function "string" -> unique number?
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2021-04-06T14:27:38Z mfiano: hash it
2021-04-06T14:27:43Z Josh_2: ^
2021-04-06T14:27:44Z jmercouris: hashes have collisions
2021-04-06T14:28:04Z phoe: so you want bignums
2021-04-06T14:28:20Z jmercouris: phoe: ?
2021-04-06T14:28:32Z phoe: you need bignums to encode arbitrary strings without collisions
2021-04-06T14:28:39Z jmercouris: I guess so
2021-04-06T14:28:57Z jmercouris: I would be considering each letter a number in base 26
2021-04-06T14:29:07Z jmercouris: in that kind of a straightforwards case
2021-04-06T14:29:10Z phoe: convert your string into a byte array, append the string's length to it, convert the result into an integer
2021-04-06T14:29:19Z jmercouris: hm, or that, that is much simpler
2021-04-06T14:29:20Z mfiano: (sxhash "foo") would probably be acceptable and not collide with 61 bits on SBCL
2021-04-06T14:29:35Z mfiano: 62*
2021-04-06T14:29:39Z jmercouris: let me start with the base problem actually
2021-04-06T14:29:43Z phoe: yes please
2021-04-06T14:29:47Z jmercouris: I want to make a mode, and represent it with a unique glyph in nyxt
2021-04-06T14:29:52Z jmercouris: I want to be able to do this automatically
2021-04-06T14:30:04Z phoe: mode, as in?
2021-04-06T14:30:11Z jmercouris: the modes the user has active
2021-04-06T14:30:12Z phoe: are we talking emacs-like modes?
2021-04-06T14:30:18Z phoe: major, minor modes, et cetera?
2021-04-06T14:30:22Z jmercouris: yes, like that
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2021-04-06T14:32:23Z phoe: my UX instincts are telling me that modes should provide some sort of taskbar-like icon that can then be displayed, but that's orthogonal to your issue
2021-04-06T14:32:39Z jmercouris: you are correct
2021-04-06T14:32:44Z jmercouris: there is a glyph slot that the user can set
2021-04-06T14:32:48Z jmercouris: however, when it is NOT set, what to show?
2021-04-06T14:33:07Z phoe: that's not really a #lisp question I think :D you can try to use the first letter of the mode, or something
2021-04-06T14:33:22Z jmercouris: well it is a #lisp question in the sense that I want to go from string -> unique glyph
2021-04-06T14:33:33Z phoe: and provide more information when the user mouseovers above it
2021-04-06T14:33:37Z jmercouris: glyph can be a unicode value
2021-04-06T14:34:16Z phoe: sxhash is likely going to be good enough for your use case then
2021-04-06T14:34:23Z jmercouris: OK, thanks
2021-04-06T14:34:34Z phoe: I don't think you're going to have modes at a scale where collisions become likely
2021-04-06T14:34:48Z phoe: (mostly because you won't have enough screen to fit all those mode glyphs at once)
2021-04-06T14:34:51Z jmercouris: probably not, just my pedantic CS self thinking about it 11
2021-04-06T14:35:16Z Nilby: Websites, e.g. github, google docs, do this with random semi-unique user icons.
2021-04-06T14:38:14Z phoe: and, honestly, I think that providing icons and falling back to first letters of each mode name is going to be much better than generating tiny semirandom icons that users will need to memorize anyway before being able to use them well enough
2021-04-06T14:38:28Z phoe: but that's already UX zone
2021-04-06T14:38:28Z jmercouris: I think you're right phoe
2021-04-06T14:38:30Z jmercouris: I will do that
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2021-04-06T14:39:04Z phoe: in the worst case the mode line will look like
2021-04-06T14:39:19Z phoe: "MmW🖊️" or something
2021-04-06T14:39:26Z jmercouris: lol, that would be something
2021-04-06T14:39:46Z phoe: and all I'm using there is three ASCII letters and one cursed unicode symbol
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2021-04-06T14:41:13Z jmercouris: lol yeah
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2021-04-06T14:45:46Z jackdaniel: some random mcclim hackery show off: http://turtleware.eu/static/paste/3337104a-showoff.webm
2021-04-06T14:46:09Z jackdaniel: what you see there is a normal clim application run in the browser (the hunchentoot acceptor is also a frame manager)
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2021-04-06T14:52:59Z alanz: jackdaniel, nice. Is there example code we can look at somewhere?
2021-04-06T14:55:28Z Josh_2: Well thats really cool jackdaniel
2021-04-06T14:55:32Z jackdaniel: not yet, but it is part of the manual for writing backends I'm working on
2021-04-06T14:55:40Z jackdaniel: so it will be public eventually
2021-04-06T14:55:56Z jackdaniel: (mind that no js is involved so far)
2021-04-06T14:56:09Z Josh_2: The less the better imo
2021-04-06T14:58:55Z Josh_2: I have dumped my lisp image and I'm now connecting to it using sly-connect. How do I get all the output to go through my connected repl instead of into the terminal that I started the image in?
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2021-04-06T15:06:17Z jmercouris: Josh_2: i don’t believe you can, when you start sly the *inferior lisp* buffer is always pushing some messages
2021-04-06T15:06:35Z jmercouris: I think the problem is in the case of CFFI that is writing to stdout for example
2021-04-06T15:06:43Z jmercouris: Though I’m not entirely sure of the conditions
2021-04-06T15:07:10Z jackdaniel: Josh_2: try (setf (symbol-value '*standard-output*) your-sly-stream)
2021-04-06T15:07:41Z jmercouris: I don’t know if that will capture all messages
2021-04-06T15:07:53Z jmercouris: I’ve had C code evade that I believe
2021-04-06T15:08:54Z jackdaniel: I thought that we talk about common lisp
2021-04-06T15:09:52Z Josh_2: How do I find my sly stream?
2021-04-06T15:10:02Z jackdaniel: even when you start your lisp from emacs other processes that write to stdout will still write to stdout
2021-04-06T15:10:28Z jackdaniel: Josh_2: type (defparameter cl-user::*my-stream* *standard-output*) in sly repl
2021-04-06T15:12:44Z Josh_2: well
2021-04-06T15:13:23Z Josh_2: maybe I should just deal with the output being in my terminal
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2021-04-06T15:38:04Z phoe: Bike: regarding the l-t-v trick, l-t-v CLHS page states that the object is treated as a literal; doesn't mutating it invoke UB then?
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2021-04-06T15:39:29Z mfiano: I asked Shinmera the same thing
2021-04-06T15:42:22Z Shinmera: It sure does, but there's no incentive for it to not just work the way you expect it to.
2021-04-06T15:43:19Z mfiano: I think we all know we can't assume programmers to make sound decisions all the time. I can't guarantee an implementation won't be doing something funky, or my current implementation some time in the future.
2021-04-06T15:43:37Z jackdaniel: (pushnew :lean-and-mean *features*)
2021-04-06T15:44:41Z phoe: I guess an implementation could go ahead and define that behavior as possible and useful, then
2021-04-06T15:44:49Z Shinmera: sure.
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2021-04-06T15:46:50Z Nilby: But there's an incentive as an implementation developer to have popular software run on your implementation.
2021-04-06T15:46:52Z mfiano: Might want to wrap that pattern up in a macro just to have a search point and a single place for a big comment.
2021-04-06T15:46:56Z _death: if I understand it correctly, the compiler treats it as a literal object, but it's still modifiable by the user, as long as read-only is nil, as the preceding paragraph says
2021-04-06T15:48:26Z phoe: yes, I can see that it is being confusing; generally, "modifiable data" and "literal object" should be disjoint sets
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2021-04-06T15:51:02Z phoe: and the specification is not very clear here
2021-04-06T15:51:20Z _death: literal here means it's "referenced directly in a program rather than being computed by the program".. I think it means the form is only evaluated once
2021-04-06T15:53:20Z Nilby: I think the Lisp aesthetic is to no have unmodifiable that exists.
2021-04-06T15:53:39Z Nilby: unmodifiable data that is
2021-04-06T15:55:01Z Shinmera: My favourite lisp aesthetic is being fast in the face of adversity. This includes having unmodifiable things at times.
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2021-04-06T15:59:12Z pjb: Shinmera: in general, compiled code is immutable.
2021-04-06T15:59:15Z Nilby: If it doesn't exist because it's optimized away, or it's existence is temporary, sure, but if you break in the debugger at the just right place, it's modifiable. I can accept things intentionally protected by memory barriers and such. It's also happens to be the aesthetic of assembly code.
2021-04-06T15:59:16Z pjb: :-)
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2021-04-06T15:59:49Z pjb: Nilby: code is data ;-)
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2021-04-06T16:00:33Z Nilby: I agree and I think compiled code should be modifiable.
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2021-04-06T16:05:00Z _death: (setf (aref (code-vector #'sleep) 0) #xC3)
2021-04-06T16:05:13Z _death: makes your programs faster :)
2021-04-06T16:05:31Z Nilby: _death: Exactly! or even (setf (aref (disassemble #'cdr) 23) '(:pop :rsp))
2021-04-06T16:05:34Z jmercouris: how can my object have two slots of the same name???
2021-04-06T16:05:46Z jmercouris: http://dpaste.com/775L8DQAP
2021-04-06T16:05:50Z jmercouris: Glyph appears TWICE!
2021-04-06T16:05:51Z pjb: Nilby: it is not necessary.  Non-controlled systems want to put the code in read-only memory to avoid exploits.  Controlled systems want to prevent write access (and sometimes even read-access) to the code to ensure control and security.  And in lisp we can always modify the source sexp and recompile.
2021-04-06T16:06:14Z phoe: jmercouris: what packages are those slot names from
2021-04-06T16:06:30Z jmercouris: damnit you are right phoe
2021-04-06T16:06:30Z epony: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return-oriented_programming challenges that  Apr06 1559<pjb> Shinmera: in general, compiled code is immutable.
2021-04-06T16:06:44Z pjb: jmercouris: (setf *print-readably* t) (inspect x)?
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2021-04-06T16:07:16Z pjb: epony: of course, there are nice hacks possible when you can modify the code.  Also, instruction caches want to avoid it.
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2021-04-06T16:07:39Z pjb: jmercouris: export and use it, or qualify it in the subclass.
2021-04-06T16:07:56Z jmercouris: I'll export it
2021-04-06T16:08:31Z pjb: jmercouris: note: you could perhaps use :default-initargs to avoid having to redefine the slot in the subclass?
2021-04-06T16:08:52Z jmercouris: pjb: cannot do, the whole point is the slot /must/ redefine the value
2021-04-06T16:09:00Z jmercouris: s/slot/subclass
2021-04-06T16:09:11Z pjb: With an :initarg, you can specify a value for a slot.
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2021-04-06T16:09:22Z jmercouris: I am aware of that, but it must change PER subclass
2021-04-06T16:09:22Z pjb: With a :defaultinitarg you can do that by default for all make-instance calls.
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2021-04-06T16:09:27Z pjb: +-
2021-04-06T16:09:37Z jmercouris: 1
2021-04-06T16:09:38Z jmercouris: indeed
2021-04-06T16:09:43Z phoe: superclass: (:default-initargs :foo (alexandria:required-argument :foo))
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2021-04-06T16:09:50Z phoe: subclass: (:default-initargs :foo 42)
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2021-04-06T16:18:43Z Nilby: pjb: Yes, I agree it's not necessary, but still useful. I think it's basically game over for security if something can control Lisp code, but in some way beach's idea of top level first class environments is like having virtual lisp machines. I would like to think it could include hardware level protection, so that memory address and compiled code could still be safely modifiable.
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2021-04-06T16:21:46Z _death: Nilby: you can do it today with implementation and platform specific means
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2021-04-06T16:26:06Z pjb: Nilby: it is a choice: either you allow modifiable code, and then you need a system like unix with separate addressing spaces and crashes, or you prevent modifiable code, and even you prevent generating code vectors by random code, only  compilers authorized by the system are allowed to produce code that is guaranteed not to crash, and then you can avoid the separate addressing space and use capabilities, environments and have bet
2021-04-06T16:26:07Z pjb: security.
2021-04-06T16:28:56Z Nilby: I guess I'm imagining I could have both, without crashing an O/S layer.
2021-04-06T16:33:38Z Nilby: I guess I'll have to wait for a portable with-lisp-vm that doesn't do something horrible like linux containers.
2021-04-06T16:36:18Z _death: namespaces/cgroups are kinda simple though.. just need a lisp library to wrap'em
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2021-04-06T16:40:49Z Nilby: _death: I don't feel like cgroups are simple: ls -R /sys/fs/cgroup/ | wc -l => over 6000!
2021-04-06T16:41:27Z Nilby: er, actually over 14k!
2021-04-06T16:43:23Z Nilby: Please forgive me for typing unix code in #lisp :(
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2021-04-06T16:57:16Z Bike: phoe: if read-only-p is false, modifying load-time-value objects is fine
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2021-04-06T16:57:23Z Bike: "it must be considered to be potentially modifiable data"
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2021-04-06T16:58:52Z Bike: it's not ub
2021-04-06T16:59:33Z _death: Nilby: do they all have ad-hoc semantics?
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2021-04-06T17:05:21Z _death: Nilby: I guess a good reason to stay away from it is the constant churning though
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2021-04-06T17:05:33Z Nilby: _death: I don't know, but looking linux/Documentation/cgroup*/*.txt I got disgusted by the complexity and stupidity of the formatted file based API
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2021-04-06T17:10:51Z Nilby: I was actually considering how to wrap such a thing in Lisp without using foreign code above the kernel.
2021-04-06T17:11:26Z _death: I think at one point I looked at launching a qemu instance and communicating with it using zeromq
2021-04-06T17:13:26Z Nilby: That's much more sensible, but I have some dumb obsession with idea that I want 100% lisp code above the kernel.
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2021-04-06T17:15:40Z semz: there are dumber obsessions
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2021-04-06T17:47:34Z phoe: Bike: yes, I assume that this passage takes precedence over clhs 3.7.1
2021-04-06T17:49:24Z Bike: ah, i suppose. "treated like a literal object at runtime" is a bit vague. i think it's mainly just emphasizing that the form is only evaluated once.
2021-04-06T17:49:43Z phoe: yes
2021-04-06T17:49:49Z phoe: that's the part that confused me
2021-04-06T17:50:42Z Bike: ltv is one of those things that didn't really make any sense to me until i implemented it
2021-04-06T17:50:54Z Bike: and even now it can confuse me at times
2021-04-06T17:51:10Z phoe: l-t-v is a thing that didn't make sense to me until I actually needed to use it
2021-04-06T17:51:54Z Bike: the really involved part is all the cycle detection and ordering of load time evaluations
2021-04-06T17:52:09Z Bike: it's kind of a lot of work for the compiler writer but programmers don't usually think about it
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2021-04-06T17:54:36Z pjb: There's still ordering freedom left to the compiler.  the order of the l-t-v forms is not specified IIRC.
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2021-04-06T18:01:44Z _death: Bike: after thinking about it more, it's not just that it's evaluated once, but also that the object is returned as-is, not, say, copied (according to some definition of copied)
2021-04-06T18:03:23Z Bike: in some way making it non-eq? i suppose so
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2021-04-06T20:52:50Z mfiano: Posted in #sbcl also, but does anyone know of a workaround to the compiler notes on SBCL for this simple function? I've been trying everything I can think of: https://gist.github.com/mfiano/66c0c1897c190e68438d405f604ddb20
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2021-04-06T20:58:49Z _death: (values (floor (floor x) y)) ?
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2021-04-06T21:00:25Z _death: I'm not sure you want to compute that..
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2021-04-06T21:02:47Z mfiano: _death: I'm trying to rasterize a 3D cuboid volume to see which cubed grid cells it touches. Here is the real code https://gist.github.com/mfiano/eba07f48c2285a47fa0685713a1f2495
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2021-04-06T21:04:13Z mfiano: Those #'map's are there because min1/max1 will be inputs to the function later on, and are required to be (simple-array single-float (3))
2021-04-06T21:04:39Z mfiano: This test code should be printing lists of fixnums, not floats
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2021-04-06T21:09:17Z mfiano: Also what did you mean by "not sure"?
2021-04-06T21:10:45Z _death: in your first gist, you have assert -1.0 < x < 1.0 so result will always be -1 or 0
2021-04-06T21:11:44Z mfiano: Yes, the actual domain doesn't matter...just has to be small enough for the result to be fixnumable
2021-04-06T21:12:36Z mfiano: So is it the case that the 2-arity floor is just missing a transform, or is there a better reason it didn't work?
2021-04-06T21:17:06Z mfiano: It seems if I assert with (assert (< #.(float (expt -10f0 9) 1f0) x #.(float (expt 10f0 18) 1f0))) your version works. Curious why such the unsymmetrical domain
2021-04-06T21:18:02Z mfiano: increasing lower or upper more fails
2021-04-06T21:19:39Z _death: well, (truly-the (unsigned-byte 32) (floor (the (single-float 0.0 65535.0) x) cell-size)) in the second gist (after fixing malformed syntax) seems to give no note
2021-04-06T21:19:50Z _death: (and it should actually be 65536.0)
2021-04-06T21:20:08Z mfiano: or in base 2, exponents 19 and 61 respectively
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2021-04-06T21:22:13Z mfiano: You are right
2021-04-06T21:22:34Z mfiano: I don't use truly-the though.
2021-04-06T21:22:56Z _death: not sure how to do without it
2021-04-06T21:23:16Z mfiano: I demonstrated above
2021-04-06T21:23:20Z mfiano: It's ugly but it works
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2021-04-06T21:25:18Z mfiano: (lambda (x) (declare ((u:f32 #.(expt -2f0 19) #.(expt 2f0 61)) x)) (floor (floor x) cell-size))
2021-04-06T21:25:31Z mfiano: u:f32 being just a short alias for single-float
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2021-04-06T21:32:22Z mfiano: Yeah i'm not sure what SBCL is doing. Should be 24 bits of precision and 128 bits of range
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2021-04-06T21:36:37Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: why are there constant page loads in your demo? why not utilize ajax?
2021-04-06T21:36:53Z jmercouris: is the goal to run mcclim in a browser that does not support javascript?
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2021-04-06T21:39:02Z mfiano: he's probably using broadway
2021-04-06T21:39:21Z mfiano: or something
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2021-04-06T21:41:51Z jmercouris: that would make sense
2021-04-06T21:42:00Z jmercouris: I was also thinking maybe a webgl surface or something earlier
2021-04-06T21:42:31Z Krystof: mfiano: I think the issue is that your divisor range includes 0
2021-04-06T21:43:07Z mfiano: Krystof: I don't understand
2021-04-06T21:43:21Z mfiano: Also it looks like the lower bound is restricted to _odd_ exponents <= 19
2021-04-06T21:43:44Z Krystof: your type for y in (floor x y) includes 0
2021-04-06T21:43:53Z mfiano: ohhh
2021-04-06T21:44:00Z scymtym: mfiano: no, the broadway backend is separate
2021-04-06T21:44:31Z Krystof: I think SBCL is not being very smart about the fact that it includes 0, but you should probably exclude 0 if you can
2021-04-06T21:44:45Z mfiano: certainly
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2021-04-06T21:44:51Z mfiano: let me try that and see what i get
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2021-04-06T21:45:09Z Krystof: (defun baz (x y)
2021-04-06T21:45:09Z Krystof:   (declare (type (single-float (-1.0) (1.0)) x) (type (and (integer (0)) (unsigned-byte 8)) y)
2021-04-06T21:45:09Z Krystof:            (optimize speed))
2021-04-06T21:45:09Z Krystof:   (floor x y))
2021-04-06T21:46:24Z mfiano: Seems to still have the weird unbalanced domain
2021-04-06T21:46:43Z mfiano: odd exponents <= 19 for low end, and any <= 61 for high
2021-04-06T21:46:53Z scymtym: seems like a good time to plug https://github.com/scymtym/sbcl-ir-visualizer again. it shows derived types of intermediate results among other things
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2021-04-06T21:48:47Z jmercouris: scymtym: what can we do with this?
2021-04-06T21:48:59Z jmercouris: performance optimization?
2021-04-06T21:49:03Z jmercouris: SBCL development?
2021-04-06T21:49:44Z scymtym: jmercouris: both. you can type in a lambda expression and investigate how SBCL processes it under different optimization policies
2021-04-06T21:49:47Z jmercouris: It is a cool project, don't get me wrong, just wondering what intent you had when developing it
2021-04-06T21:50:02Z jmercouris: I see
2021-04-06T21:50:23Z phoe: I'd place $5 that the intent was introspection into the SBCL compilation and IR generation process
2021-04-06T21:50:43Z phoe: better to work with things when they're laid out spatially
2021-04-06T21:50:50Z jmercouris: phoe: that was the outcome, was that the intent?
2021-04-06T21:51:02Z phoe: s/place/bet/
2021-04-06T21:51:12Z phoe: let's see if I lose my five bucks
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2021-04-06T21:52:39Z Krystof: mfiano: I don't understand what you mean by unbalanced domain.  Example?
2021-04-06T21:52:50Z mfiano: Krystof: One moment
2021-04-06T21:53:05Z scymtym: phoe is right since he described what the program does and i made it do that intentionally. but i'm not sure where this discussion is supposed to go
2021-04-06T21:54:43Z mfiano: Krystof: Shall we take this to #sbcl?
2021-04-06T21:55:10Z Krystof: maybe to a mailing list; I'm about to go to bed
2021-04-06T21:55:53Z Krystof: or you can (trace :encapsulate nil sb-c::floor-derive-type-optimizer sb-c::floor-quotient-bound) to find what's not giving you the right answer
2021-04-06T21:56:11Z Krystof: SBCL is a bit conservative about its lower bound to floor in the presence of floating point arithmetic
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2021-04-07T03:04:17Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-04-07T04:59:08Z alandipert: hi beach o/
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2021-04-07T05:00:01Z beach: alandipert: Hey!  What's up?
2021-04-07T05:02:07Z alandipert: not a whole lot, you?
2021-04-07T05:03:39Z beach: Same here.  I am working on implementing my idea for a register-allocation algorithm.  And, as usual, I got the abstractions wrong the first few times, so more work than the idea should have generated.
2021-04-07T05:04:11Z beach: I think I must find a way to delegate the implementation of my ideas.
2021-04-07T05:04:41Z beach: So far, I have had more ideas per time unit than I have time to implement, so there is a fairly large backlog.
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2021-04-07T05:10:47Z alandipert: ah i know what you mean. i'm perpetually in the same boat with my various (and less impressive) projects
2021-04-07T05:11:46Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: the reason is because the goal of this proof of concept wasn't to have reload-less page - I didn't need javascript yet
2021-04-07T05:12:09Z jackdaniel: mfiano: there are no dependencies outside of cl the world (except for hand-written css file)
2021-04-07T05:12:54Z jackdaniel: the final thing will have three types of frame handlers: static (get/post), ajax-based for one-way updates, and a dynamic one with websockets
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2021-04-07T05:22:12Z beach: alandipert: But you work for a private company.  Usually, in that world you can convince someone to invest money if the idea is a good one, and then you can hire someone to do it.  No?
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2021-04-07T05:26:57Z beach: alandipert: That's one problem I have with academia.  What is considered a good idea, and thus subject to funding, is a complicated set of considerations like nation-wide or union-wide "strategies", and (above all) fads.
2021-04-07T05:26:59Z alandipert: well, i'm freelance currently and so have clients with disparate needs, so for my longer term and more conceptual bets, i'm the investor
2021-04-07T05:27:11Z beach: Oh, I see.
2021-04-07T05:29:12Z beach: I think I have another problem with my ideas.  It might be possible at this point to start some crowdfunding effort for my projects, but I don't know how to find people who are both available and qualified.
2021-04-07T05:29:35Z alandipert: yes, i have enough friends and family in academia to be acutely aware of how difficult it can be to inhabit
2021-04-07T05:29:56Z moon-child: beach: I don't think industry is worse than academia in that respect.  I daresay industry usually involves a more perverse (if consistent) set of incentives
2021-04-07T05:30:20Z beach: moon-child: That's my point, yes.
2021-04-07T05:30:43Z alandipert: i find industry incomparable to academic, but i've personally spent little time in academia, and understand there are many variables
2021-04-07T05:30:44Z beach: I would have to gather enough funding to convince a qualified person to quit the current dayjob, and that is very unlikely to happen.
2021-04-07T05:30:59Z moon-child: beach: err, I meant to say, I don't think industry is better than academia in that respect
2021-04-07T05:31:06Z beach: Oh!
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2021-04-07T05:32:48Z moon-child: (although, I don't have personal experience with academia.  So I may be mistaken.  Grass is greener and all that)
2021-04-07T05:33:49Z beach: I have worked both in industry and academia, though mostly in academia.  But you may be right, my memory of industry may no longer be accurate.
2021-04-07T05:34:32Z alandipert: beach perhaps you could gather enough funding to quit your own current dayjob?
2021-04-07T05:34:49Z beach: That would be very very stupid.
2021-04-07T05:35:19Z beach: 1.  I have 10 months to retirement.  2. My dayjob allows me to work full time on my projects already.
2021-04-07T05:36:02Z alandipert: ah. clearly your best bet is to never retire :->
2021-04-07T05:36:48Z beach: That is unfortunately not an option.  French law makes it impossible to continue after this date.
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2021-04-07T05:38:39Z beach: What we need is another J. C. R. Licklider.
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2021-04-07T05:39:40Z alandipert: regarding the scarcity of qualified help, you might consider how to market the project to those outside of the lisp community (although i understand at least with regard to paper abstracts, you're averse to that, and for good reasons)
2021-04-07T05:40:44Z beach: What would be the advantage?  It would require some significant training to get those people to be of any use, no?
2021-04-07T05:42:41Z alandipert: well, there are vastly more programmers outside lisp than inside. and i posit good/experienced outside people usually learn lisp quickly once interested, and can have enough experience to appreciate its advantages in a way that neophytes cannot
2021-04-07T05:43:01Z alandipert: the important part being, "once interested"
2021-04-07T05:43:10Z beach: Yes, I see.
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2021-04-07T05:50:29Z Nilby: I think it's hard to get availible and highly qualified Lisp programmers to do what you want without the coercion of employment. I think there's quite a numer who live in post-scarcity and are available, but would need a mighty big carrot.
2021-04-07T05:51:08Z beach: alandipert: I am not averse to that.  I just have no idea how to make such a thing happen.
2021-04-07T05:52:00Z beach: Nilby: I suspect that even with employment, it would be hard to get them to do what I want. :)
2021-04-07T05:53:11Z Nilby: Yes. Quite.
2021-04-07T05:54:39Z Nilby: I think the old Lisp companies somehow had a magic mixture of employment coercion and shared goals and belief in the work.
2021-04-07T05:55:06Z Nilby: And a bunch of already qualified very talented people.
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2021-04-07T05:56:31Z White_Flame: and a mixture of government contractor money
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2021-04-07T05:58:23Z Nilby: White_Flame: Sadly, yes, that's what seemed to make it possible and then pulled the rug out.
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2021-04-07T06:07:46Z pjb: beach: well, in the current paradigm, the way to make qualified and talented people do your bid is by having a lot of money. You can have a lot of money by earning it, eg. starting a web software company like Zip2, selling it, with the money, starting up an online bank like Paypal, selling it, and with the money start up a company to build and sell EV cars, another to build rockets to go to Mars, and another to dig tunnels to run 
2021-04-07T06:07:46Z pjb: cars and dig habitats on Mars.
2021-04-07T06:08:33Z pjb: beach: an alternative paradigm is proposed by Bernard Frio (quite intersting), but unfortunately, we're far from achieving such a system... (even if, as he argues, we already had half of it).
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2021-04-07T06:08:49Z pjb: beach: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Friot
2021-04-07T06:09:47Z pjb: beach: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3g-A25BE2w&list=PLysam5vv8eGfHsIU3iQtRgnALGs0fdD1g
2021-04-07T06:10:24Z pjb: beach: note that this gives you a hint on how to gather work force around your project: don't aim at newbies, but at retired programmers!
2021-04-07T06:10:39Z pjb: Which in the case of a lisp project, is not a bad idea after all…
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2021-04-07T06:10:47Z beach: Sure.
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2021-04-07T06:11:24Z beach: They would be amply qualified, and they don't need to spend all day making money to feed the family.
2021-04-07T06:11:49Z pjb: The quantity of retired programmers should increase a lot in the next years…
2021-04-07T06:12:39Z pjb: (or you can also win the lotto, and just start up a lisp company).
2021-04-07T06:15:28Z beach: First time I hear of Barnard Friot.  I'll certainly read more.
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2021-04-07T06:20:44Z beach: Anyway, my current strategy is to do the implementation work myself, hoping to get to a native executable SICL system not too far in the future.  Once that is done, I hope to see more interest in helping out by people who are both qualified and available.  I have no idea whether this strategy will work, of course.
2021-04-07T06:23:51Z Nilby: I'm hoping that there may some kind of convergence in the Lisp community when some of the various projects that people have been working on for years might be able to used a more cohesive whole.
2021-04-07T06:25:40Z beach: Nilby: That was one of the things I hoped to achieve with the SICL project.  I secretly hoped to create high-quality "modules" that would then be adopted by existing Common Lisp implementations.  I now think that hope was unfounded.
2021-04-07T06:28:04Z no-defun-allowed: Looking further in time when we may ask the same questions for CLOSOS (though there is surely a similar pressure for beach's more immediate projects), I am aware that programmers around my age are also often fed up with current compilers, operating systems and so on, but discussing the proposed solutions and projects leads to "knee-jerk" reactions #lisp participants may be familiar with.
2021-04-07T06:28:48Z Nilby: I'm not sure it's unfounded, it's might just take longer, since implementations necessarily have to be quite conservative.
2021-04-07T06:29:00Z beach: One thing that has a chance of success though is McCLIM.  It is maintained and developed by a bunch of good people.  It is quickly becoming the best choice for Common Lisp GUI code, as opposed to FFI solutions.
2021-04-07T06:29:15Z no-defun-allowed: For the most part, I believe there are people with time, but funding them and encouraging them to act on their complaints are very hard. (Though, of course, not everyone wants to write a compiler or operating system or whatever else, and that's fine too.)
2021-04-07T06:29:25Z beach: Nilby: I hope you are right.
2021-04-07T06:30:18Z beach: no-defun-allowed: Yes, it is very hard to get the message across to people with a long-term investment in more traditional technology.
2021-04-07T06:31:12Z no-defun-allowed: Instead what I see is people saying self-deprecating things like "computers were a mistake" and generally just sticking to small changes. The latter would be rational, but both make me sad.
2021-04-07T06:31:51Z beach: How strange.
2021-04-07T06:32:54Z beach: What is very surprising to me is that people write end-user applications in a language such as C++.  I am thinking of things like MuseScore.
2021-04-07T06:33:08Z beach: I guess Firefox would qualify as well.
2021-04-07T06:33:34Z no-defun-allowed: beach: I'm not sure how long "a long-term investment" is, but they don't have much in the way of investments. I suppose they are used to some technologies, but they are often hobbyists with lots of spare time, and some groups iterate through many libraries and frameworks and whatnot relatively quickly.
2021-04-07T06:33:57Z beach: I am less surprised about things like LLVM.  They probably try to target existing system programmers.
2021-04-07T06:34:49Z beach: no-defun-allowed: I see.  That make their attitude more puzzling.
2021-04-07T06:36:24Z beach: Though, even with LLVM, it would probably have been easier to write it in some high-level language with automatic memory management, and then provide bindings for C and C++, rather than the other way around.
2021-04-07T06:36:29Z no-defun-allowed: (My last attempt to change anyone's attitude was to be equally as mindlessly optimistic, trying to say that computers and programming could, in fact, be very fun. But the "mindless" part of that plan is a problem, when it is not the norm.)
2021-04-07T06:37:06Z beach: no-defun-allowed: "last" as in "final" or as in "latest"?
2021-04-07T06:37:55Z no-defun-allowed: "latest"
2021-04-07T06:43:18Z no-defun-allowed: I should try something else, but right now I am taking a break from that project (and any substantial programming work).
2021-04-07T06:44:26Z Nilby: I have to intersperse serious work with fun work or else I might get the same feeling.
2021-04-07T06:47:41Z no-defun-allowed: On the contrary, I think programming requires a creative process, and if one is able to follow their creative process without too many restraints, then it is probably fun.
2021-04-07T06:48:03Z beach: I know of only one way that (sometimes) works to convert people, and that does not come across as proselytizing, namely to try to do good work that in some way improves on the existing state of things.
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2021-04-07T06:56:06Z no-defun-allowed: Though, if everyone I was referring to had acted on what they were saying, it is likely most of them are not going to work on the projects we are looking for help with. But I would be happy if they did just about anything.
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2021-04-07T08:00:10Z splittist: I think the progress on SICL has been nothing short of amazing. Particularly when the offshoots - eclector etc. - are taken into account. And the talent it has attracted is impressive.
2021-04-07T08:01:55Z beach: Absolutely right.  The independent modules have become impressive thanks to the qualified people who agreed to develop and maintain them.
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2021-04-07T08:02:52Z beach: Not all those modules are excellent (yet).  But I am convinced they will be.
2021-04-07T08:03:42Z beach: In my discussions, I was referring mainly to the SICL-specific code.
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2021-04-07T08:18:21Z hypercube: do you guys think Common Lisp will make a return to industry?
2021-04-07T08:19:30Z beach: Hard to say, given the sorry state of the software industry.
2021-04-07T08:19:33Z splittist: hypercube: I don't think it ever left. Perhaps it hasn't grown at the same rate as other (newer) languages, but there are pockets of lisp we rarely hear about. (Perhaps because it's in law enforcement and intelligence.)
2021-04-07T08:21:04Z splittist: When LAMBDA for Excel drops later this year, and joins the fairly recent LET, we can claim lisp IS the language of industry (:
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2021-04-07T08:23:03Z hypercube: im pretty new to common lisp and got into it mainly through taking a scheme course at school, but im surprised that programming isnt done that way more
2021-04-07T08:23:39Z Nilby: splittist: for printfcl (printf "%+0.ld % .0d %+0.0ld" 0 0 0) is not entierly valid, but seems to differ from the C version.
2021-04-07T08:24:46Z beach: hypercube: It shouldn't surprise you if you know how programmers are trained and chosen, and how little management knows about software development in general.
2021-04-07T08:25:19Z beach: Then again, maybe you don't know that.
2021-04-07T08:25:57Z lukego: Hey what's the appropriate time to split code into a separate package? I only have a few KLOC of code and I'm feeling the urge to break this up into separate logical packages but I also have a feeling that's possibly just unproductive busy-work
2021-04-07T08:26:11Z hypercube: i guess i realize that students arent exposed to this paradigm at all in academia
2021-04-07T08:27:07Z splittist: Nilby: thanks - I'll have look.
2021-04-07T08:27:13Z beach: lukego: I break my code up into "modules", where each module resides in a directory, has an ASDF system definition, and a component (file) containing a package definition.
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2021-04-07T08:28:17Z beach: lukego: I extract a module whenever I see a reasonable (usually CLOS-based) protocol emerging.
2021-04-07T08:28:27Z lukego: beach: thanks, I was looking for a reference example of that style, and see now SICL repo is such
2021-04-07T08:28:40Z beach: Indeed.
2021-04-07T08:28:47Z beach: There are plenty of examples in there.
2021-04-07T08:28:50Z no-defun-allowed: hypercube: It makes sense to me, given whoever runs the industry wants perhaps the opposite of people doing whatever they want (for the most part).
2021-04-07T08:29:01Z Nilby: splittist: I wrote a printf in a blub language and had some old test file around which I think I got from cygwin.
2021-04-07T08:29:13Z lukego: yeah I have the vague feeling that having everything in the same package is making it too easy to have murky interfaces that I am not thinking out
2021-04-07T08:29:53Z hypercube: no-defun-allowed: true
2021-04-07T08:30:26Z hypercube: do you have any recommendations if i want to get serious about common lisp programming? any good books or courses?
2021-04-07T08:30:35Z beach: lukego: Yes, that's the risk.  Plus, now when we have package-local nicknames, having a package for each module is not a problem.
2021-04-07T08:30:53Z beach: minion: Please tell hypercube about PCL.
2021-04-07T08:30:54Z minion: hypercube: look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2021-04-07T08:31:16Z lukego: hypercube: I think that Common Lisp is used in industry, mostly quietly in small groups, and seems likely to continue that way. maybe it's healthy that the amount of CL used in industry is driven by the number of geeks learning CL and looking for opportunities to work with it. better than e.g. if Gartner told the S&P500 they all need to adopt Lisp and the mess that would create.
2021-04-07T08:31:47Z beach: lukego: Well put!
2021-04-07T08:32:03Z hypercube: thank you beach!
2021-04-07T08:32:12Z beach: Pleasure.
2021-04-07T08:32:16Z beach: minion: Thanks!
2021-04-07T08:32:16Z minion: np
2021-04-07T08:32:36Z Nilby: I'm afraid industry would want to turn CL into Clojure or something.
2021-04-07T08:32:49Z splittist: Nilby: more tests always welcome!
2021-04-07T08:33:02Z moon-child: Nilby: let them eat cake!
2021-04-07T08:33:05Z hypercube: lukego: i suppose that's write
2021-04-07T08:33:08Z hypercube: right**
2021-04-07T08:33:52Z Nilby: moon-child: Yes. And stay out of my imaginary palace.
2021-04-07T08:34:13Z contrapunctus: .o("Get off of my cloud!")
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2021-04-07T08:40:51Z Nilby: splittist: here's some https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2376#2376
2021-04-07T08:41:25Z Nilby: splittist: They should be able to be read by your test code.
2021-04-07T08:41:59Z splittist: Nilby: awesome!
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2021-04-07T08:45:41Z Shinmera: lukego: In my mind files are for the maintainer's organisational structure, and packages are for the user's organisational structure. If you don't have users, then it doesn't matter much, but as soon as you see a part that could stand on its own, it can be useful to extract it.
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2021-04-07T08:49:35Z lukego: I'm mostly asking myself whether multiple package namespaces will be a plus or a minus e.g. using symbols like BGA-NAME verses BGA:NAME verses NAME. I'm a CLOS n00b here and it's already bothering me having the same symbol for unrelated slots of different classes e.g. NAME or ID.
2021-04-07T08:49:42Z splittist: With a sufficiently smart editing environment (tm) (and perhaps a sufficiently smart programmer...) files should be a backing detail, and the programmer should be looking at whichever 'view' of the code makes sense for the task at hand (e.g. methods grouped by function or by specialised argument)
2021-04-07T08:50:08Z Shinmera: lukego: I wouldn't let that bother me. It's fine.
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2021-04-07T08:50:32Z beach: splittist: Indeed.  Some people are working on such an environment.
2021-04-07T08:50:46Z Shinmera: lukego: But if you want to be stricter about it, as beach mentioned, design your protocols first, and separate them out into a package per protocol.
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2021-04-07T08:51:18Z lukego: splittist: but now you're describing the environment that I switched /away/ from to work in Lisp :-) i.e. GToolkit in Pharo Smalltalk
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2021-04-07T08:53:29Z splittist: lukego: heh
2021-04-07T08:53:38Z lukego: splittist: but I'm not really in that school of thought -- I'm more into embracing the limitations of the file-based representation e.g. as a means of putting a narrative order onto code that is lost when you slice and dice it up
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2021-04-07T08:54:23Z Nilby: After using Pharo I appreciate files more.
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2021-04-07T08:54:37Z splittist: lukego: fair enough. War and Peace v. Zork
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2021-04-07T08:55:44Z Nilby: "narrative" is a good way to put it
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2021-04-07T08:57:08Z lukego: also as an old-school DEFSTRUCT kind of Lisp hacker it bugs me a bit with CLOS - and indeed with Smalltalk - that `M-.' doesn't hop you straight to the code you want but rather makes you scroll through to the relevant method even though that's usually painfully obvious to you as a programmer. but for better or worse I'm CLOS'ing this project
2021-04-07T08:57:27Z lukego: Maybe that copy of AMOP that I ordered a month ago will turn up one day and then I'll share everyone else's enthusiasm for this stuff :)
2021-04-07T09:00:38Z Nilby: Maybe we need a version of `M-.' that does compute-applicable-methods.
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2021-04-07T09:02:59Z Shinmera: it would need to know the type of the arguments, which is usually not available because inference around CLOS is weak.
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2021-04-07T09:04:23Z lukego: I'd like to have a DWIM version of `M-.' that jumps to some dynamic but predictable place e.g. the most recent method actually invoked from the callsite where I pressed `C-u M-.'
2021-04-07T09:04:31Z scymtym: you would also need COMPUTE-APPLICABLE-METHODS-USING-TYPES
2021-04-07T09:11:40Z scymtym: the DREI common lisp syntax has some interesting ideas about semantics-aware editing regarding completion and "undefining": https://github.com/McCLIM/McCLIM/blob/master/Libraries/Drei/lisp-syntax-swine.lisp#L434 (too bad that the more abstract parts are mixed up with the editing functionality)
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2021-04-07T09:14:59Z lukego: (actually it could be an interesting form of "JIT" if SBCL would compile two copies of a function, one with lots of instrumentation for debugging and editing and so on and one without, and then enable the fast one only when it's actually "running hot")
2021-04-07T09:15:51Z beach: lukego: http://metamodular.com/SICL/sicl-debugging.pdf
2021-04-07T09:15:56Z lukego: Or maybe I'm dreaming of the Bad Old SBCL that had an interpreter that it used sometimes
2021-04-07T09:16:20Z lukego: ha!
2021-04-07T09:16:56Z lukego: I think I've asked this before but it's way too early to do real development in a SICL-hosted-on-SBCL, right?
2021-04-07T09:17:07Z no-defun-allowed: A JIT would still instrument in order to know when to give up on an optimisation, and a good one would still preserve semantics of the slow code.
2021-04-07T09:17:30Z beach: lukego: Yes, that will not be the goal of that environment.
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2021-04-07T09:19:10Z lukego: no-defun-allowed: I meant without the various downsides of a highly dynamic JIT i.e. you still compile the same statically optimized machine code ahead of time but you also have a slow/instrumented version that you can swap in whenever you like e.g. to say "the next time we run that function let's log how each method invocation is resolved and store that for reference by an M-. command"
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2021-04-07T09:19:35Z lukego: beach: SICL is more about the long game of having a complete environment unto itself right?
2021-04-07T09:19:52Z beach: lukego: As opposed to what?
2021-04-07T09:20:47Z lukego: hosted inside another Lisp and used together e.g. SICL frontend over SBCL backend
2021-04-07T09:21:08Z beach: Oh, yes, definitely a complete environment.
2021-04-07T09:22:27Z lukego: (aside: it's remarkable how much instrumentation you can put into machine code on modern out-of-order CPUs without having much impact on performance e.g. conditional branches to hooks that are speculated away by the CPU)
2021-04-07T09:23:36Z lukego: I need to start reading SBCL internals so that my ideas can be less uninformed
2021-04-07T09:24:03Z lukego: beach: SICL sounds great but as a humble practitioner I'm not sure how to connect it with anything I'm doing
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2021-04-07T09:34:37Z h4ck3r9696: I have a problem with usocket: sometimes, when I try to use wait-for-input, it throws an exception: "couldn't read from #<SB-SYS:FD-STREAM for "socket 192.168.0.46:4444, peer: 192.168.0.27:35932" {1007AA9A43}>:   Connection reset by peer [Condition of type SB-INT:SIMPLE-STREAM-ERROR]". I don't think this is normal, but if it is, how can I fix this?
2021-04-07T09:36:43Z Shinmera: It means your connection was terminated. You "fix" it by either somehow having internet that never breaks, or handling the error and establishing a new connection.
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2021-04-07T09:39:14Z h4ck3r9696: I see. I should try to reconnect to every peer, then.
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2021-04-07T09:44:46Z beach: lukego: Right, it is not meant for you (at the moment).  Once the environment is in working condition, I hope you will see some nice features.
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2021-04-07T10:15:32Z splittist realises he's had Harbison & Steele on his shelf all along; proceeds to schedule printfcl rewrite
2021-04-07T10:25:05Z splittist: Nilby: that should be fixed. Thanks for the report and the tests!
2021-04-07T10:25:17Z hhdave: ikrabbe (or ikrabbe|2): I noticed over on #clim you were talking about using CL for devops. I'm doing that these days using https://github.com/Virtual-Insurance-Products/cl-sysop (which I wrote). I handled the executing commands on remote systems bit - it can bounce over several systems via SSH (also uses zlogin for executing things in SmartOS (solaris) zones). It handles all the shell quoting.
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2021-04-07T10:30:43Z Nilby: splittist: You're welcome. Thanks for making it.
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2021-04-07T10:45:18Z ikrabbe: hhdave: Thanks for the note. I first transfer the sequence of commands send to a system into a list. I scan this list with a recursive function. That is a bit more complex, but far more flexible, as I searched a general solution for a common problem. The quoting is done by the structure of the list.
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2021-04-07T10:55:45Z ask6155: hello
2021-04-07T10:56:48Z ask6155: is there a function which opens up lists?
2021-04-07T10:57:05Z no-defun-allowed: Opens up?
2021-04-07T10:57:55Z jmercouris: maybe flattens? what do you mean exactly?
2021-04-07T10:58:00Z ask6155: like (open '(x y)) will return (x y)
2021-04-07T10:58:03Z ask6155: yeah flatten
2021-04-07T10:58:15Z jmercouris: alexandria:flatten
2021-04-07T10:58:38Z ask6155: is there nothing built-in?
2021-04-07T10:58:42Z jmercouris: no
2021-04-07T10:58:48Z Nilby: '(x y) is (x y)
2021-04-07T10:58:52Z jmercouris: perhaps you don't mean flatten though
2021-04-07T10:59:03Z jmercouris: because as Nilby pointed out, those expressions are equivalent
2021-04-07T10:59:05Z hhdave: ikrabbe: oh right. In my system I have a method which makes a command for a certain host which consists of a comamnd name and a list of arguments. I'd be interested to see what you come up with. I think there are other implementations of similar things. I've built up a system for declarative devops using CLOS.
2021-04-07T10:59:11Z jmercouris: (quote (x y)) -> (x y)
2021-04-07T11:00:46Z ask6155: a function takes a list, how do I return that list?
2021-04-07T11:01:59Z ask6155: actually bad question
2021-04-07T11:02:25Z contrapunctus: ask6155: what are you trying to do?
2021-04-07T11:02:27Z ask6155: I want to return a list with the items in the list x plus some more items at the end
2021-04-07T11:02:43Z ask6155: in one list with no sublists
2021-04-07T11:02:44Z contrapunctus: ask6155: append
2021-04-07T11:05:45Z no-defun-allowed: Huh? '(x y) and (x y) are not equivalent. The former evaluates to the latter though.
2021-04-07T11:05:49Z ikrabbe: or `(,@some-list ,an-element ,@the-elements-of-another-list)
2021-04-07T11:06:42Z Nilby: ask6155: Just be aware that the last argument to append must be a list e.g. (append '(1 2) (list 3)) => (1 2 3)
2021-04-07T11:09:01Z ask6155: thanks append works
2021-04-07T11:12:15Z no-defun-allowed: APPEND returns an improper list when the last argument is not a list.
2021-04-07T11:12:34Z no-defun-allowed: Interesting advice from #lisp today.
2021-04-07T11:14:04Z ask6155: I'm using common-lisp and in append I had to make all arguments lists like this '(x) I cannot use 'x it gives an error 'x needs to be a list. I have 3 args and x is the first
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2021-04-07T11:15:08Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, the other arguments must be lists though.
2021-04-07T11:16:06Z ask6155: do all arguments need to be lists?
2021-04-07T11:16:45Z no-defun-allowed: If you have a list bound to X, then the call should look like (append x (list other elements here))
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2021-04-07T11:18:08Z ask6155: ok I getit
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2021-04-07T11:19:51Z no-defun-allowed: 'x and x are not equivalent under evaluation, but I suppose reality is not being communicated well when someone who writes A LARGE POPULAR LISP APPLICATION is telling people that sort of nonsense.
2021-04-07T11:20:02Z no-defun-allowed: Whew, that's my shouting for the day.
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2021-04-07T11:21:27Z ask6155: i dont remember any popular lisp apps
2021-04-07T11:21:34Z no-defun-allowed: ikrabbe's suggestion to use quasiquotation would also work, e.g. `(,@x 1 2 3)
2021-04-07T11:21:55Z ask6155: i've not learned that yet
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2021-04-07T11:22:13Z no-defun-allowed: Note that 1, 2 and 3 there are not evaluated - well, append would work fine for now.
2021-04-07T11:23:38Z Nilby: If someone can succeed despite my technically wrong advice, then they might have a chance with the harder stuff.
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2021-04-07T11:25:12Z lukego: speaking of things having to be lists I have a function (defun listify (x) (if (listp x) x (list x))) and was surprised not to immediately see it already existing in CL / alexandria / serapeum unless I missed it?
2021-04-07T11:25:28Z no-defun-allowed: alexandria:ensure-list or something like that?
2021-04-07T11:25:53Z no-defun-allowed: (alexandria:ensure-list 'x) ⇒ (X)
2021-04-07T11:26:15Z lukego: no-defun-allowed: yes! fool that I am, I was looking for LISTS in the alexandria docs ToC and totally overlooked CONSES
2021-04-07T11:26:50Z no-defun-allowed: Nilby: The qualifier "technically" isn't necessary; that is absolutely confusing advice.
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2021-04-07T11:35:05Z no-defun-allowed: And, from my point of view, progress was made in part because I had to correct you and jmercouris, and I would prefer to not have to do that.
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2021-04-07T12:02:56Z lukego: are you chastising people for the quality of the free help that they are offering in good faith to strangers on the internet? that's harsh :)
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2021-04-07T12:24:48Z ikrabbe: not when they lead people in the wrong direction, though the critic was a bit strong, for a little quote :)
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2021-04-07T12:28:43Z ikrabbe: ask6155: it took myself a good amount of time, to realize that append can be replace, especially in situations, where the result is not known: (apply #'append '(a-list) (return a few lists, to be appended)) is far more complex, than `(,@a-list ,@(return a few lists, to be appended))
2021-04-07T12:28:57Z rodriga: has anybody here ever worked in a Lisp startup?  or have any connections to a Lisp startup or "internships"?
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2021-04-07T12:29:53Z ikrabbe: ask6155: actually I learned that while trying to understand onLisp
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2021-04-07T12:38:26Z mfiano: Whenever I see #'append in my code, I consider it a red flag and I stop and think very carefully whether it can be expressed in a more efficient manner.
2021-04-07T12:38:57Z mfiano: Though I am normally writing high performance code where that thinking is required.
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2021-04-07T12:49:00Z ikrabbe: As you first learn about quasiquote as "the somehow used macro definition leader", it is replaced by append when you begin your list juggling.
2021-04-07T12:51:17Z mfiano: "quasiquote" is a Schemism
2021-04-07T12:51:24Z mfiano: We call that "Backquote"
2021-04-07T12:51:41Z no-defun-allowed: Eh, I call it quasiquotation.
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2021-04-07T12:51:46Z Bike: we do call it quasiquote sometimes
2021-04-07T12:51:57Z no-defun-allowed: So does e.g. the library fare-quasiquote
2021-04-07T12:52:31Z Bike: also eclector. also the clhs suggests copying scheme. so it's fine
2021-04-07T12:53:20Z mfiano: Fair enough. It can be confusing to someone trying to reference the bible is all.
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2021-04-07T12:59:32Z edgar-rft quasiquotes the ten commandments
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2021-04-07T13:13:12Z jcowan: edgar-rft: And what parts of them do you provide as commatose variables?
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2021-04-07T13:15:34Z ikrabbe: I think quasiquote is a quote good word, to express the function of the backquote character (at least far better than "the somehow used macro definition leader")
2021-04-07T13:16:26Z lukego: rodriga: I've worked in a Lisp startup and have a new embryo-phase Lisp startup now. what are you wondering?
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2021-04-07T13:22:46Z beach: lukego: Probably whether you propose employment or internships.
2021-04-07T13:22:57Z ikrabbe: mfiano: I just wikipedia'ed the word and found that quasiquote is actually a semantic concept of quotation, that matches our usage very well.
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2021-04-07T13:25:47Z ikrabbe: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/quotation/#CornQuasQuot :D There are more modes to quotation, we might be able to adapt ;)
2021-04-07T13:25:58Z lukego: I guess that if one is looking for a lisp job/internship that list of Lisp companies is a good place to look. I only saw this for the first time this week. https://github.com/azzamsa/awesome-lisp-companies
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2021-04-07T13:28:13Z mfiano: ikrabbe: It is the same concept. My point was that it is not a defined term in the Common Lisp standard. It was borrowed from Scheme to mean the same thing as an existing term in our standard.
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2021-04-07T13:40:30Z jcowan: It's also used in Bourne shell terminology:  '...' is quotation, "..." is quasiquotation
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2021-04-07T13:42:12Z jmercouris: no-defun-allowed: pretty sure if one form evaluates to another they are equivalent...
2021-04-07T13:42:19Z Xach: if you are uncomfortable with all the mysterious unquoting rules, it's queasyquotation
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2021-04-07T13:46:45Z lukego: where is the "like" button in irc...
2021-04-07T13:46:47Z beach: jmercouris: Not by any reasonable definition of "equivalent".
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2021-04-07T13:50:07Z beach: jmercouris: There is nothing wrong with the relation "evaluates to".  It is reasonably well defined in Common Lisp.
2021-04-07T13:51:26Z seabass[m]: Hello!
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2021-04-07T13:51:38Z beach: Hello seabass[m].
2021-04-07T13:52:02Z seabass[m]: I've got a JSON file that I'd like to turn into constants for Common Lisp
2021-04-07T13:52:32Z seabass[m]: Is there a way to do this at compile time with macros?
2021-04-07T13:53:07Z beach: Why would you use macros rather than functions?
2021-04-07T13:53:24Z seabass[m]: I was under the impression that it was macros that ran at compile time, rather than functions
2021-04-07T13:53:37Z seabass[m]: But if functions do the job, then that's also great! :)
2021-04-07T13:55:15Z beach: You can do anything at compile time with (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) ...)
2021-04-07T13:55:16Z seabass[m]: I'd really appreciate any code examples of this
2021-04-07T13:55:43Z seabass[m]: ooh, nice - so every CL compiler also has an internal intepreter?
2021-04-07T13:56:13Z beach: No.  Most modern Common Lisp systems compile on the fly, so there is no interpreter present.
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2021-04-07T13:57:02Z seabass[m]: wow, even better
2021-04-07T13:57:16Z seabass[m]: Lisp never ceases to amaze me :)
2021-04-07T13:57:29Z seabass[m]: ...neither does the Lisp community, BTW ;)
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2021-04-07T13:57:37Z Xach: beach: doug k had a very interesting example of how adding an interpreter to SBCL made parallel compilation faster
2021-04-07T13:58:10Z beach: Xach: Interesting!
2021-04-07T13:58:36Z seabass[m]: Xach, and here you are
2021-04-07T13:58:55Z seabass[m]: did you know that your blurb is at the top of http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ ?
2021-04-07T13:59:13Z seabass[m]: I didn't expect to meet you this quickly upon joining the channel, lol :)
2021-04-07T13:59:15Z aeth: I don't doubt that you could do everything as a function but... this really does seem like a place where macros are more straightforward. Read/parse file at macroexpansion time, generate DEFCONSTANTs. The only issue is that macros can be evaluated more than once (and SBCL often evaluates them twice), so side-effects (including reading a file, I guess? it would happen twice) are discouraged.
2021-04-07T13:59:23Z Xach: beach: basically, if you have serial dependencies A, B, C, interpreting A and B with an interpreter only to provide the required compile-time side-effects of the code allowed C to be compiled before A or B is compiled.
2021-04-07T13:59:50Z Xach: beach: of course, this requires a complex and fast interpreter optimized for that purpose...not a "traditional" interpreter that helps with debugging or macroexpansion etc
2021-04-07T13:59:52Z lukego: Xach: interpreter is making a comeback in sbcl? any link on that?
2021-04-07T13:59:58Z seabass[m]: aeth, I guess I could read the file into a variable with a function
2021-04-07T14:00:07Z seabass[m]: and then convert them into constants with macros?
2021-04-07T14:00:09Z Xach: lukego: this is from many years ago, not new, but i feel it is not well-understood
2021-04-07T14:00:29Z beach: Xach: Makes sense.
2021-04-07T14:01:11Z beach: aeth: Entirely possible.  Since I don't understand the problem statement, I was merely asking a question.
2021-04-07T14:01:28Z aeth: seabass[m]: even simpler than that, you can just check to see if the constants already exist, maybe?
2021-04-07T14:01:56Z seabass[m]: aeth, sorry what do you mean? This is a particular set of data specific to my program
2021-04-07T14:02:03Z seabass[m]: It's not a constant like Pi or anything
2021-04-07T14:03:02Z seabass[m]: By using constants I can avoid this huge JSON file being parsed every invocation, and also make the binary 'portable' by not needing a /usr/share dir
2021-04-07T14:03:16Z lukego gets some popcorn, has never really grokked the intersection between compile time evaluation and macro definition
2021-04-07T14:03:54Z Xach: lukego: when the interpreter was being developed (a long time ago), i thought it would really help for interactive debugging, but it's really just to avoid the overhead of the smart compiler generating nice code.
2021-04-07T14:04:11Z Xach: (slowly)
2021-04-07T14:05:10Z lukego: *nod* think of this any time I run CCL and it all feels so blazingly fast
2021-04-07T14:05:15Z aeth: seabass[m]: If you're using DEFCONSTANT it will be an error to redefine it on recompile. Two issues. First, it can run multiple times (wasting the later efforts assuming that the two definitions match). Second, if the file changes it will just error on recompile.
2021-04-07T14:05:52Z aeth: seabass[m]: The easiest workaround would just be to use a global, which at that point can just be done at the first run (assuming that it's a program or a framework, and not a library with many entry points)
2021-04-07T14:05:58Z lukego: aside: edebug for emacs has wonderful user experience for interactive stepper-style debugging, based on a metacircular interpreter afaik
2021-04-07T14:06:19Z seabass[m]: aeth, Hmm, that's interesting
2021-04-07T14:06:25Z Xach: lukego: allegro and lispworks are really fast too. it's interesting to see the kind of mindset that develops around many (most?) users of free CLs thinking SBCL is the only way to go and the best at everything
2021-04-07T14:06:31Z seabass[m]: Maybe I should give you an overview of what I'm trying to achieve more generally
2021-04-07T14:06:41Z Xach: (i love and use SBCL, but it is not the best at everything)
2021-04-07T14:06:57Z seabass[m]: Essentially, I've got this big JSON file. The JSON file is updated every few months
2021-04-07T14:07:36Z seabass[m]: the end user would need to download my source code, and then download any version of the JSON file into the source directory
2021-04-07T14:07:54Z seabass[m]: Then compile, and boom all the constants are there and the program never needs to read a JSON file again
2021-04-07T14:08:32Z seabass[m]: If I manually wrote the constants in the Lisp source, I'd need to change them manually at every release of the JSON data
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2021-04-07T14:16:30Z lukego: seabass[m]: I guess it's two related problems. One, how to load the data at compile time, perhaps with EVAL-WHEN; two, what to do with that data after it's loaded, e.g. keep it in a list that you lookup from, or translate it into Lisp-level compiler constants via macros.
2021-04-07T14:17:04Z seabass[m]: lukego, yes I think that's a good way of putting it
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2021-04-07T14:20:28Z lukego: I really don't have this stuff swapped in but I am also curious about what is the idiomatic solution :). Maybe it depends on the way in which you're compiling your application e.g. into compiled modules (fasls) verses as a snapshot (image)?
2021-04-07T14:20:47Z seabass[m]: now you really are going over my head :)
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2021-04-07T14:22:56Z lukego: I hope that I'm not side-tracking you here but one relevant feature that Lisp has is being able to snapshot the whole Lisp process into a file -- basically a coredump -- and then run that again later. it's like a suspend-to-disk and all of the data you have loaded is included. I'm not sure if/how this applies to your situation though
2021-04-07T14:23:50Z seabass[m]: hmm that sounds cools but probably a bit advanced for me as well as my target userbase
2021-04-07T14:23:54Z seabass[m]: *cool
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2021-04-07T14:25:10Z lukego: I don't quite follow what the interface for your end-users will be. are they getting a stand-alone binary from you? or are they really getting source + json? and you plan to ship those on different schedules e.g. new lisp daily but new json monthly?
2021-04-07T14:25:26Z seabass[m]: Hmm, OK I'll try to expain better
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2021-04-07T14:25:34Z seabass[m]: Most users will simply get a binary release from me
2021-04-07T14:25:51Z seabass[m]: The releases that I make will always use the latest combination of JSON + Lisp code
2021-04-07T14:26:14Z seabass[m]: But if my users want to use a different version of the JSON, they can download them seperately and create that binary themselves
2021-04-07T14:27:17Z lukego: Maybe consider building on Xach's buildapp? https://www.xach.com/lisp/buildapp/ iiuc that's a simple way to create stand-alone executables that can easily load both code and data during build.
2021-04-07T14:27:48Z Xach: i like and use buildapp but investing time in learning how asdf's binary building works is probably better
2021-04-07T14:28:00Z seabass[m]: Ideally they shouldn't need to know any Lisp - just run make
2021-04-07T14:28:00Z Xach: from what i've seen, it's pretty easy
2021-04-07T14:28:02Z beach: seabass[m]: Maybe if you remove JSON from the discussion, and just let us know what the parser for the JSON file would return.
2021-04-07T14:28:35Z beach: seabass[m]: And then, tell us what you want that result to turn into, in terms of Common Lisp forms.
2021-04-07T14:28:47Z lukego: oh I didn't know that asdf had that function. neat.
2021-04-07T14:29:33Z seabass[m]: beach, it would return a list, containing a list of two keywords and their values each
2021-04-07T14:29:40Z Xach: i couldn't figure out cl-launch, so i made buildapp, which is simpler. then asdf was updated to be a little simpler than buildapp (i think)
2021-04-07T14:29:52Z beach: seabass[m]: Can you give an example?
2021-04-07T14:31:08Z seabass[m]: ((:a "string" :b "another") (:a "yet more string" :b "yet another"))
2021-04-07T14:31:16Z seabass[m]: Hmm maybe I should try to explain that in Algol-like pseudocode
2021-04-07T14:31:17Z seabass[m]: even with a hint of python :)
2021-04-07T14:31:52Z beach: And what would you like your Common Lisp code to look like as a result of that example?
2021-04-07T14:32:12Z beach: I mean, it can't be (defconstant :a "string") etc.
2021-04-07T14:32:29Z seabass[m]: erm, why not?
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2021-04-07T14:33:08Z beach: seabass[m]: Because you are not allowed to define Common Lisp keywords as constants.
2021-04-07T14:33:20Z seabass[m]: oh, right. Hmm.
2021-04-07T14:33:23Z beach: Plus, there are two :A and two :B so that would be a conflict.
2021-04-07T14:33:42Z seabass[m]: So can I define a constant list of keywords?
2021-04-07T14:34:19Z seabass[m]: equivilento `list[n].a` and `list[n].b` in Python, say
2021-04-07T14:34:25Z beach: Sure.  But I don't see anything in your example that would suggest a Common Lisp name that could be used in a DEFCONSTANT form.
2021-04-07T14:34:30Z seabass[m]: haha, I just invented a nice word there
2021-04-07T14:34:40Z seabass[m]: 'equivilento' :D
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2021-04-07T14:35:13Z beach: seabass[m]: It would be even better if you explain what you want without reference to programming languages that some people here might not master.
2021-04-07T14:35:37Z seabass[m]: beach, fair enough, but I'll have to think longer to get it into 'lispy' formats :)
2021-04-07T14:36:39Z beach: seabass[m]: So neither the keywords not the string literals can be used as the name of a Common Lisp constant.  Therefore, you need to tell us what name you would like for your example.
2021-04-07T14:37:26Z beach: seabass[m]: Then, you need to explain what you had in mind when you thought it was possible to use keywords as names of constants, but then your example has duplicates, which would mean defining a constant in two different ways.
2021-04-07T14:37:41Z seabass[m]: hmm, yeah
2021-04-07T14:37:57Z seabass[m]: I guess I'd like to have one constant that is a list, where each item has keyworded values
2021-04-07T14:38:22Z beach: Oh, like a property list (plist)?
2021-04-07T14:38:30Z seabass[m]: ahah! That maybe it
2021-04-07T14:38:32Z seabass[m] looks up plists
2021-04-07T14:39:11Z seabass[m]: that sounds exactly like what I'm looking for
2021-04-07T14:39:27Z beach: Still, the duplication will be a problem.  It doesn't make sense to have a plist with duplicate keys.
2021-04-07T14:39:42Z lukego: I have interpreted seabass[m]'s questions totally differently and made an example which may or may not be confusing and irrelevant :) https://gist.github.com/lukego/44ee65e9d2ed9587c91338d237f27fe4
2021-04-07T14:39:49Z seabass[m]: So, is there a way of populating such a plist in a loop (which can ignore duplicate keys), and then 'set that it stone' for the binary?
2021-04-07T14:39:57Z beach: Or, it could make sense, but you need to explain what it would mean.
2021-04-07T14:40:49Z beach: seabass[m]: That's trivial.  If you have the list in your example, then just turn it into (defconstant +mumble+ '((:a "string" :b ...) (:a ...)))
2021-04-07T14:41:36Z lukego: This example runs standalone.lisp that creates the executable ./standalone. This executable includes the contents of the file /etc/protocols at the time that the executable was created. Running ./standalone will print the contents of /etc/protocols -- not by opening that file but by "remembering" the value that was compiled in.
2021-04-07T14:41:41Z seabass[m]: great! So I populate a variable, and then defconstant it into a constant, all within a 'at compile time' section?
2021-04-07T14:41:54Z seabass[m]: lukego, that's really nifty
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2021-04-07T14:42:17Z seabass[m]: That's pretty much what I wanted do to; can that be compiled into a binary and still work?
2021-04-07T14:42:34Z seabass[m]: as opposed to --load
2021-04-07T14:42:36Z beach: seabass[m]: Or perhaps (defconstant +mumble+ '((:a "string") (:b "...") (:a ...) (:b ...))) or even (defconstant +mumble+ '(:a "string" :b "..." :a .... :b ...))
2021-04-07T14:42:42Z beach: But you need to decide which one.
2021-04-07T14:42:44Z lukego: well in my interpretation the defconstant business is just a distraction. all you need is to have the data passed from compile time to runtime. the details of how you parse it, how you store it in variables, etc, are up to you and straightforward once you grok the bit above
2021-04-07T14:43:05Z lukego: seabass[m]: Yes. The --load will have the side-effect of creating ./standalone which is an executable.
2021-04-07T14:43:17Z seabass[m]: that's neat
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2021-04-07T14:43:26Z seabass[m]: Thank you very much for your help here!
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2021-04-07T14:44:21Z lukego: The way it does this is basically to "core dump" into that file -- i.e. suspend the Lisp process to disk such that it can be resumed in a new process -- but that's not really a scary thing in Lisp, and it's handy because all your state is preserved e.g. values you have loaded from disk or libraries you have loaded etc (but not open files/sockets/etc of course that die with the process and don't persist)
2021-04-07T14:44:22Z lukego: you're welcome
2021-04-07T14:44:45Z seabass[m]: that's certainly something that'd be scary in C
2021-04-07T14:45:41Z lukego: Maybe if you take this approach you could just parse the JSON data at runtime if that makes it easier to think about. You can still have the JSON data loaded at runtime and stored in the executable -- but it's probably not necessary to translate it into Lisp code since if you have it in a Lisp string you can just parse it into a Lisp data structure at any time.
2021-04-07T14:45:41Z seabass[m]: There's also something I'd like to ask for the benefit of the user
2021-04-07T14:46:34Z seabass[m]: There's a portion of the JSON that'll never be needed for my program, so I think it probably makes sense just to save the data I need
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2021-04-07T14:49:04Z lukego: So what you have here is really a general suspend/resume facility. You can decide what data you want to have in the process at the time you do the suspend. In this example you have the raw contents of the file stored in a variable, but you could instead e.g. pass that to a function that extracts only the part you need, or compresses it, or parses it and stores the parse tree, or translates it into lisp code, etc.
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2021-04-07T14:50:13Z lukego: Since the suspended Lisp process includes the whole Lisp compiler you should also be able "at runtime" to load in new data and generate a new executable containing that instead.
2021-04-07T14:50:37Z seabass[m]: isn't that a little wasteful?
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2021-04-07T14:51:01Z seabass[m]: Compared to C, for instance, which only has the code that you wrote
2021-04-07T14:51:27Z lukego: So this is about half way between C and Docker.
2021-04-07T14:51:49Z seabass[m]: sorry, I don't know Docker :)
2021-04-07T14:52:18Z lukego: So basically it's very wasteful by the standards of the 1990s. By today's standards I'd call it borderline restrained.
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2021-04-07T14:52:34Z seabass[m]: that's a fair point :)
2021-04-07T14:53:07Z lukego: anyway, it's a starting point if you want to get up and running, quite possibly you'll find a better solution later if you want to reduce your file size etc.
2021-04-07T14:53:19Z seabass[m]: yeah, that's true
2021-04-07T14:53:30Z seabass[m]: Again, thank you :)
2021-04-07T14:53:57Z lukego: (maybe other people have better suggestions for you, I'm only taking the time now because it looked to me like you were getting side-tracked with thinking about how to represent JSON data as Lisp code, when it really seemed like your main problem was just embedding some data in your program)
2021-04-07T14:53:59Z lukego: welcome
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2021-04-07T14:54:22Z seabass[m]: yup, pretty much
2021-04-07T14:54:32Z seabass[m]: I have a tendency to go down those sort of side-tracks :)
2021-04-07T14:54:46Z shka_: hi all
2021-04-07T14:54:53Z lukego: Lisp will offer you plenty of possibiliites for that, don't worry.
2021-04-07T14:55:09Z seabass[m]: o/ shka_
2021-04-07T14:55:11Z shka_: i am looking for a really good example of pretty printing code
2021-04-07T14:55:22Z shka_: please, aid me
2021-04-07T14:55:47Z seabass[m]: hmm there's probably a good file or two in GNU Emacs for that
2021-04-07T14:56:05Z shka_: well, common lisp to be specific
2021-04-07T14:56:09Z seabass[m]: ah, OK
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2021-04-07T14:58:08Z seabass[m]: shka_, M-x find-function RET indent-line-to RET, just in case you're interested anyway :)
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2021-04-07T14:58:41Z shka_: seabass[m]: appreciated
2021-04-07T14:58:51Z seabass[m]: no problem :)
2021-04-07T14:59:09Z seabass[m]: shka_, do you use Emacs?
2021-04-07T14:59:39Z seabass[m]: It surely must be the best Lisp editor in existence
2021-04-07T14:59:57Z beach: Sadly, it is.
2021-04-07T15:00:03Z lukego: shka_: one example, https://www.researchgate.net/publication/242313131_Using_the_new_common_Lisp_pretty_printer
2021-04-07T15:00:03Z shka_: heh
2021-04-07T15:00:15Z shka_: beach: that's exactly what i wanted to type
2021-04-07T15:00:26Z shka_: anyway, emacs is not even bad
2021-04-07T15:00:27Z beach: Sorry I beat you to it. :)
2021-04-07T15:00:30Z seabass[m]: beach, it's fine as long as you have long fingers and small keyboards :D
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2021-04-07T15:00:44Z shka_: but we could have something so much better
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2021-04-07T15:00:49Z mason: seabass[m]: Bah, foot peddles do away with all of that.
2021-04-07T15:01:00Z seabass[m]: mason, ooh, you actually have one?
2021-04-07T15:01:08Z seabass[m]: Does it plug into the mic jack or USB?
2021-04-07T15:01:11Z mason: seabass[m]: No, but I want one so I can be a better Emacs user.
2021-04-07T15:01:16Z beach: seabass[m]: No, it is not fine.  It doesn't have a good idea of what the code in the buffer represents, so it often gets indentation wrong, and it confuses non-forms and forms.
2021-04-07T15:01:17Z seabass[m]: ah, OK :)
2021-04-07T15:01:22Z beach: seabass[m]: etc, etc,.
2021-04-07T15:01:40Z lukego: decades of Emacs use and no foot pedals, then I took up soldering and suddenly I have five under my desk right now :)
2021-04-07T15:01:58Z seabass[m]: beach, that's funny, I've never had any issues with that. But then again, I'm not too advanced at Lisp right now, as you can see :)
2021-04-07T15:02:02Z mason: beach: What's a good editor? Or isn't there one?
2021-04-07T15:02:20Z seabass[m]: lol! that's funny lukego
2021-04-07T15:02:21Z beach: mason: Like I said, I agree that "sadly" Emacs is the best.
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2021-04-07T15:02:40Z seabass[m]: I'll ask you then - is it audio jack or USB?
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2021-04-07T15:02:50Z seabass[m]: I guess you'd need some sort of uc for USB
2021-04-07T15:02:54Z beach: seabass[m]: That's the very problem.  People seem content with this situation.
2021-04-07T15:03:26Z mason: seabass[m]: have you read through https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/FootSwitches ?
2021-04-07T15:03:42Z shka_: beach: i think that emacs has a few extra benefits for people who program in multiple languages
2021-04-07T15:03:42Z seabass[m]: nope, I haven't actually considered one for myself
2021-04-07T15:04:14Z beach: shka_: Yes, but I was answering: <seabass[m]> It surely must be the best Lisp editor in existence
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2021-04-07T15:04:15Z mason: seabass[m]: I think it's probably worthwhile since Emacs, despite protestations, is in fact modal. "I've got the control key down" is a mode.
2021-04-07T15:04:31Z shka_: righ
2021-04-07T15:04:32Z shka_: t
2021-04-07T15:04:36Z seabass[m]: yes, I agree
2021-04-07T15:05:00Z mason: Really, having a control key on the floor is all the pedal I'd want.
2021-04-07T15:05:00Z seabass[m]: on a technical basis, of course, there's no difference
2021-04-07T15:05:12Z seabass[m]: And you could very easily remap non-control keys to anything else
2021-04-07T15:06:15Z seabass[m]: (global-set-key (kbd "a") 'execute-extended-command) or whatever
2021-04-07T15:06:20Z beach: lukego: I would like a keyboard with a much more narrow space bar, and I would like the extra space to be used for control and meta, one for each thumb.  I take it Japanese keyboards are like that, but for different reasons.
2021-04-07T15:06:37Z seabass[m]: beach, absolutely agree with you there
2021-04-07T15:07:03Z seabass[m]: The Japanese keyboards are themselves hyper-modal
2021-04-07T15:07:31Z lukego: beach: yeah. I always shop for the keyboard with the narrowest spacebar that I can. ironically it means wanting a Windows key. the best I can usually do it having Space flush with the left of C e.g. on my Thinkpad and Mac keyboards. Sometimes it comes out below X and then I get hand cramps reaching for Meta.
2021-04-07T15:07:39Z seabass[m]: the Chinese just gave up and use Pinyin :D
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2021-04-07T15:08:20Z lukego: though I only use my left hand for modifiers I think. pinky for control (capslock) and thumb for meta.
2021-04-07T15:08:27Z pjb: lukego: https://groupbuys.mechboards.co.uk/shop/hyper-7-keyboard-r3/  has a small space.
2021-04-07T15:08:53Z lukego: once upon a time I had my spacebar mapped to a Hyper key but I was in a bad place then and stopped escalating my keyboard hacks as the hand cramps started :)
2021-04-07T15:08:57Z seabass[m]: lukego, me too unless my left hand hurts, then I use my right hand for modifiers for a few hours
2021-04-07T15:09:02Z pjb: Actually two small space keys separated by a ⋅ key.
2021-04-07T15:09:17Z shka_: beach: i use redox keyboard, it has ctrl just under the thumb
2021-04-07T15:09:25Z lukego: interesting keyboard pjb!
2021-04-07T15:09:32Z beach: pjb: That looks good!
2021-04-07T15:09:35Z seabass[m]: pjb, wow that's a beautiful keyboard, but it sure is expensive
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2021-04-07T15:09:51Z shka_: on the standard keyboards, i used to remap caps lock to act as a ctrl
2021-04-07T15:10:03Z seabass[m]: My budget is more like USD$60
2021-04-07T15:10:08Z beach: shka_: Yes, but C-a becomes a bit hard to type.
2021-04-07T15:10:18Z shka_: and ctrl to act as escape
2021-04-07T15:10:19Z seabass[m]: shka_, on Colemak Caps Lock is backspace
2021-04-07T15:10:33Z shka_: which also makes some sense
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2021-04-07T15:10:47Z shka_: honestly, caps lock has no place on the modern keyboard imho
2021-04-07T15:10:47Z lukego: I have been gradually expanding my notion of what is a reasonable price for a keyboard as I keep on buying more and more cheap and crappy ones and wishing I'd been less stingy :)
2021-04-07T15:11:08Z lukego: but just using the thinkpad now, and Barrier to share the laptop keyboard/mouse with the desktop.
2021-04-07T15:11:14Z beach: pjb: That look like precisely what I desribed.
2021-04-07T15:11:19Z beach: described.
2021-04-07T15:11:38Z seabass[m]: lukego, I know one of the maintainers of Barrier btw
2021-04-07T15:11:54Z pjb: beach: unfortunately, out of stock. They may take orders for a possible future batch.
2021-04-07T15:11:58Z shka_: beach: you gonna need a rather large desk for this one :-)
2021-04-07T15:12:11Z seabass[m]: always grumbling because the GitHub project owner won't give push privs :D
2021-04-07T15:12:23Z lukego: seabass[m]: cool :) it's a great piece of software! though one day I must work out how to get it to auto-start on startup. each time I reboot one of my machines I end up fishing out a backup keyboard/mouse to manually start barrier with :). maybe I could just start it from the command-line, have to check that..
2021-04-07T15:12:43Z beach: pjb: Oh, too bad.
2021-04-07T15:13:05Z seabass[m]: lukego, you could ues an initrc/systemd unit maybe?
2021-04-07T15:13:08Z lukego: I suppose actually that barrier makes total sense as a text-based command line application, I wonder if it has such a mode, it's awkward to start in GUI mode since in principle I don't have a keyboard/mouse on the client machine
2021-04-07T15:13:17Z lukego: yeah, one day I'll finally do that...
2021-04-07T15:13:50Z seabass[m]: I don't use Barrier but I could knock up a systemd unit for you if you want
2021-04-07T15:14:31Z seabass[m]: I use this keyboard: https://www.ebay.com/p/74087856
2021-04-07T15:14:39Z seabass[m]: not in such yellowed state, I may add :D
2021-04-07T15:15:00Z lukego: old school :)
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2021-04-07T15:15:18Z seabass[m]: my father's first IBM-PC clone keyboard :)
2021-04-07T15:15:23Z lukego: thanks but I'm on NixOS so that'll be another whole kettle of fish to integrate the script into and I don't have the motivation just now :)
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2021-04-07T15:15:45Z seabass[m]: lukego, sure, I forgot that you used NixOS
2021-04-07T15:16:00Z seabass[m]: Even though it's plastered all over that code you displayed :D
2021-04-07T15:16:16Z lukego: I can't remember what sin I am atoning for by using NixOS but it's probably a whopper
2021-04-07T15:16:25Z seabass[m]: aw cute you call your laptop thinky
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2021-04-07T15:29:22Z lukego: Here's my latest abuse of unicode, this time because (required-argument) takes too much horizontal space:
2021-04-07T15:29:23Z lukego: (define-symbol-macro ⊥ (error "⊥"))
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2021-04-07T15:31:20Z phoe: required-argument takes an argument name, no?
2021-04-07T15:31:46Z lukego: optionally
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2021-04-07T15:31:55Z phoe: oh! I see
2021-04-07T15:32:17Z lukego: (defstruct foo (name ⊥ :type string)) ;; scratches an itch for me ...
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2021-04-07T15:40:18Z _death: it takes a name so that it can produce a better error message
2021-04-07T15:42:03Z lukego: yeah. I never give that name though because I'm always bothered about the verbosity.
2021-04-07T15:42:35Z lukego: (and because often the reason I'm using defstruct in the first place is because I couldn't stand the redundancy of defclass :))
2021-04-07T15:43:33Z lukego: maybe I should be using one of those easy-defclass macros.
2021-04-07T15:44:04Z lukego: but it's nice to let my hair down and allow myself to indulge some symbol/reader macros and funny syntax sometimes too.
2021-04-07T15:45:03Z _death: it's easy-defclass to those who know and love it.. for others it's "oh man, now I gotta learn another stupid defclass shortcut library to understand this form"
2021-04-07T15:45:39Z _death: that or "now I gotta macroexpand"
2021-04-07T15:46:00Z _death: the former is more likely if I also want to modify it
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2021-04-07T15:47:40Z lukego: yeah. I guess I've been struggling and failing to get the taste for CLOS for like twenty years now so a crutch might be helpful. but I do have AMOP on order.
2021-04-07T15:48:04Z _death: defclass is verbose, but it's a small price to pay
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2021-04-07T15:52:59Z lukego: I have made one apparent step forward by factoring slots out into mixins like (defclass indexed () ((index ...))) when I often use the same slots in various classes
2021-04-07T15:53:28Z lukego: (defclass foo (indexed banked sided) ()) saves a lot of text compared with entering the slots manually every time.
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2021-04-07T15:55:30Z beach: lukego: There is redundancy in DEFCLASS only if you don't care about modularity and consistent protocols.
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2021-04-07T15:56:34Z lukego: beach: so the Erik Naggums of the world keep telling me, but I don't believe it's as black and white as that.
2021-04-07T15:57:33Z beach: lukego: In practice, not every slot should have an :INITFORM, not every slot should have an :INITARG, not every slot should have a :READER, and not every slot should have a :WRITER.
2021-04-07T15:57:43Z jmercouris: lukego: we use hu.dwim.class star
2021-04-07T15:57:56Z beach: jmercouris: I am sorry to hear that.
2021-04-07T15:57:57Z lukego: to me it sounds like saying that Java class definitions are only verbose if you don't care about scope, mutability, and allocation policy. but that doesn't excuse typing "public static final ..." ten thousand times
2021-04-07T15:58:09Z jmercouris: lukego: it is in my opinion way better than just defclass by itself
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2021-04-07T15:59:17Z jmercouris: lukego: here is an example of us using it: https://github.com/atlas-engineer/nyxt/blob/master/source/blocker-mode.lisp
2021-04-07T15:59:35Z jmercouris: beach: I find it quite convenient :-)
2021-04-07T15:59:44Z jmercouris: I can use all of defclass when needed
2021-04-07T15:59:51Z lukego: jmercouris: thanks! I'll try joining you at the philistines table and see how I fit in :) but I am guessing that reading AMOP will change my idea of what is appropriate, for better or worse, and I don't know in what direction
2021-04-07T15:59:58Z jmercouris: Otherwise I use define-class
2021-04-07T16:00:08Z lukego: jmercouris: love your work btw :) have only recently found out about nyxt
2021-04-07T16:00:29Z jmercouris: lukego: thanks, that’s very kind of you to say
2021-04-07T16:00:37Z beach: jmercouris: Yes, it is no doubt quite convenient... if you don't care about modularity and consistent protocols, like I said.
2021-04-07T16:00:46Z lukego: beach: I'm often just creating internal data structures and not public interfaces. the way in other languages one might use a throw-away dictionary or tuple.
2021-04-07T16:00:51Z jmercouris: Sometimes I do, sometimes I don’t
2021-04-07T16:01:02Z jmercouris: It depends on whether I’m writing a library or an application
2021-04-07T16:01:15Z beach: Wow.
2021-04-07T16:02:54Z jmercouris: beach: you are a much more conservative programmer than me :-D
2021-04-07T16:02:55Z beach: lukego: Even for those, it pays off to think about what kind of options you want to give to MAKE-INSTANCE, what slots you want to be writable, etc.
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2021-04-07T16:03:47Z jmercouris: If Encapsulation is important, you’ll end up writing getters and setters anyways
2021-04-07T16:04:00Z beach: Er, what?
2021-04-07T16:04:39Z jmercouris: Talking about using class instances as a way to pass state around , instead of thinking about them as objects
2021-04-07T16:04:54Z beach: Don't tell me you write things like (defmethod get-stuff (x) (slot-value x 'stuff)).
2021-04-07T16:05:07Z jmercouris: beach: of course not 11
2021-04-07T16:05:16Z jmercouris: I’ll just add an accessor
2021-04-07T16:05:42Z jmercouris: I do write getters sometimes that have more logic than that though
2021-04-07T16:06:43Z beach: Those are known as "slot readers" and "slot writers", not "getters" "setters".
2021-04-07T16:07:00Z beach: And you can always write auxiliary methods on the corresponding generic functions.
2021-04-07T16:08:18Z beach: There is typically always a slot reader, but not always a slot writer on a slot.
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2021-04-07T16:08:44Z beach: ... independently of encapsulation issues.
2021-04-07T16:09:46Z beach: In particular, you may not want to use :ACCESSOR if you want client code to read the slot, but not write it.
2021-04-07T16:10:43Z beach: ... since the same symbol can be used both to read and write the slot then.
2021-04-07T16:10:49Z mfiano: I even go as far as to define a %-prefixed accessor in addition to a reader that is exported, rather than use slot-value for internal code, since it is often wanted to extend that protocol
2021-04-07T16:11:12Z beach: Exactly.
2021-04-07T16:11:26Z beach: It doesn't have to be prefixed as long as it is not exported.
2021-04-07T16:11:37Z mfiano: Right. It's just a convention
2021-04-07T16:11:48Z jackdaniel: if the reader is exported, then (setf reader) is kinda exported too
2021-04-07T16:11:49Z beach: I sometimes do (%name :reader name :writer (setf other-name))
2021-04-07T16:11:50Z mfiano: One that is recognizxed by others at that, but mostly personal :)
2021-04-07T16:11:57Z mfiano: err recognized*
2021-04-07T16:12:00Z beach: jackdaniel: Exactly my point, yes.
2021-04-07T16:12:22Z mfiano: Yes, that was what I was implying.
2021-04-07T16:12:49Z beach: But sometimes I just use REINITIALIZE-INSTANCE internally.
2021-04-07T16:12:57Z mfiano: If I don't want users to write, I'll export a symbol used for :reader, and give myself a non-exported symbol for :accessor/:writer
2021-04-07T16:13:10Z beach: Right.
2021-04-07T16:13:22Z jackdaniel: howerver given that you bother to write down how to use your system and you do not mention the writer (setf foo), then if someone uses it then it is violating the library protocol
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2021-04-07T16:14:02Z jackdaniel: so it is still kind of internal
2021-04-07T16:14:16Z lukego: This may shock you guys but I sometimes even pass around data as *lists of atoms* :)
2021-04-07T16:14:18Z beach: jackdaniel: Sure.  But it is good to give warnings or errors in case of incorrect use.
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2021-04-07T16:16:00Z mfiano: It surprises me at how many codebases use the same symbol name for the slot as the accessor (in the general sense, not :accessor)
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2021-04-07T16:16:11Z mfiano: THat is an accident waiting to happen in most cases
2021-04-07T16:16:13Z jackdaniel: beach: I tentatively agree but one could consider adding (setf %extra) accessors clobbering from the code perspective (and one more sub-protocol to keep in mind when working on the system)
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2021-04-07T16:16:57Z beach: Sure.
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2021-04-07T16:17:07Z lukego: It bothers me how much this discussion sounds like #java in the 1990s :(
2021-04-07T16:17:42Z jackdaniel: that sounds as if some very smart people worked on java back then ;-)
2021-04-07T16:17:52Z pve: lukego: you might use emacs to generate an initial defclass form for you, and then edit as necessary
2021-04-07T16:17:52Z lukego: The whole "ravioli code" concept with layers of empty calories between every tiny morsel of meat :)
2021-04-07T16:18:02Z pve: instead of a CL macro, I mean
2021-04-07T16:18:15Z lukego: pve: okay now you're just copy-pasting from a java forum I'm sure of it :)
2021-04-07T16:18:26Z pve: haha no I'm serious
2021-04-07T16:19:21Z pve: you end up with a defclass form that everyone understands, without having to type it all out
2021-04-07T16:19:51Z lukego: This is the big challenge with CLOS for me. I don't /want/ to agree with what you guys are saying :) I like the kind of Lisp code that Peter Norvig writes and he's more likely to use DEFCLASS with :TYPE LIST than any of this business
2021-04-07T16:19:56Z lukego: DEFSTRUCT rather
2021-04-07T16:22:04Z lukego: but maybe it is more of an applications verses libraries thing. I'm writing code that I expect to churn quickly and not be seen by anyone else's eyes before being rewritten a couple of times. so it doesn't seem rational to spend time worrying about how a hypothetical unknown third party might interact with this code. different situation if you're pushing libraries to github/quicklisp.
2021-04-07T16:23:46Z jmercouris: You’ve nailed it
2021-04-07T16:24:04Z jmercouris: All of the advice so far has been given within the context of third party consumers and some robust foundation
2021-04-07T16:24:17Z jmercouris: When neither exist, it is a pointless exercise
2021-04-07T16:24:42Z beach: Sure.  If you don't expose your code to anyone else, you can do whatever you want.
2021-04-07T16:24:50Z lukego: Thank you :)
2021-04-07T16:24:59Z beach: Who needs DEFSTRUCT anyway.  You can just use CAR/CDR.
2021-04-07T16:25:42Z lukego: I can also understand that if you spend time teaching people to program in Lisp, you will want to be focusing on the best practices for doing this properly, since people can always use their judgement to take shortcuts later.
2021-04-07T16:25:47Z jmercouris: Not sure if your being sarcastic, but Eitaro would agree with you
2021-04-07T16:25:55Z jmercouris: You’re *
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2021-04-07T16:26:17Z jmercouris: He uses lists for everything!
2021-04-07T16:26:28Z lukego: I'm reading some ACL2 code that has page-long definitions on which each line is of the form (defun foo-quux (foo) (caddddddddddr foo))
2021-04-07T16:26:51Z Xach: there's also a big difference between "there's no reason for [the way defclass works]" and "i don't like how it works" or "the problems that it solves aren't that important to me" etc
2021-04-07T16:26:58Z beach: jmercouris: I am saying that DEFSTRUCT is already a way to make your code more modular and with defined protocols.  If you don't think you need such things, there might be no point in using DEFSTRUCT either.  Lists could be more flexible.
2021-04-07T16:27:00Z Gnuxie[m]: I hope you are including co-workers as third parties
2021-04-07T16:27:01Z Xach: change [the way defclass works] to whatever you like
2021-04-07T16:27:10Z lukego: so even for throw-away code I appreciate easy ways to get accessors, places to hang print functions, etc.
2021-04-07T16:27:21Z jmercouris: beach: agreed
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2021-04-07T16:27:53Z beach: Gnuxie[m]: I include my future self as a third party.
2021-04-07T16:28:09Z beach: Gnuxie[m]: But that might be because of my notorious bad memory.
2021-04-07T16:28:17Z lukego: beach: that's a good point. in other languages I would do exactly that e.g. if they have pattern matching to make it convenient. could well be that in serapeum there are such facilities and some of my structs could be lists because I don't need dedicated accessor functions.
2021-04-07T16:28:41Z Bike: i wish structure objects were defined with defclass, and defstruct was a library macro to define accessors with convenient names
2021-04-07T16:28:48Z lukego makes mental note to read some idiomatic serapeum code e.g. implementation of serapeum itself
2021-04-07T16:29:19Z Gnuxie[m]: beach: that's wise
2021-04-07T16:29:34Z Gnuxie[m]: gives yourself less work in either case
2021-04-07T16:30:06Z jackdaniel: Bike: in the vast undefined behavior (defclass foo () () (:metaclass structure-class)) works on some implementations
2021-04-07T16:30:36Z Bike: yeah. that's nice.
2021-04-07T16:30:39Z beach: Bike: Your wish is my command! :)
2021-04-07T16:31:02Z Bike: mm hm
2021-04-07T16:31:04Z jackdaniel: ah, but adding slots doesn't work so nice
2021-04-07T16:31:19Z splittist: mixins and generic functions are a great way to allow for unforeseen behaviour modification. And every time I worry about performance I tell myself the world now runs on javascript over the network.
2021-04-07T16:31:27Z lukego: Gnuxie[m]: I do a lot of rewriting. I'll probably rewrite all this particular code at least a couple of times before I share it with anyone else. I've already rewritten much of it once.
2021-04-07T16:31:29Z Bike: you'd probably have to do something funky to ensure the class is defined at enough at compile time to allow subclassing
2021-04-07T16:31:37Z Bike: while keeping the fast access, i mean
2021-04-07T16:31:41Z Shinmera: splittist: My game engine makes heavy use of CLOS :)
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2021-04-07T16:32:09Z jackdaniel: ah, that's it, I've tried redefining foo, when I define a "fresh" class, then I can put slots in there
2021-04-07T16:33:06Z mfiano: My game engine makes heavy use of structure-object and standard-object
2021-04-07T16:33:19Z Bike: defstruct has to do funky stuff of that kind. defstruct is kind of entirely funky stuff
2021-04-07T16:33:26Z jackdaniel: funcallable-standard-object idea is also cool
2021-04-07T16:33:37Z Bike: well, doesn't have to, but does if defstructs have any point over defclass
2021-04-07T16:33:45Z Bike: i'm pretty sure sbcl has funcallable structure objects
2021-04-07T16:33:54Z jackdaniel: well, they are mandated by mop
2021-04-07T16:33:54Z Bike: internally, obvs
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2021-04-07T16:33:59Z Bike: they are?
2021-04-07T16:34:12Z VincentVega: Hi! Is there a portable way to suppress a redefinition warning?
2021-04-07T16:34:12Z jackdaniel: ah, funcallable *structure* object
2021-04-07T16:34:21Z jackdaniel: I've meant *standard* :)
2021-04-07T16:34:25Z Bike: ah. yeah.
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2021-04-07T16:35:18Z pve: lukego: I once worked on an old application that stored everything (or a lot, anyway) in symbol plists. A curious design choice, but it did work..
2021-04-07T16:35:36Z Bike: i would also like upgraded-structure-slot-type and a pony.
2021-04-07T16:36:06Z lukego: pve: thank you for normalizing the use of whatever quirky representation one prefers in the privacy of one's own codebase :)
2021-04-07T16:36:14Z jackdaniel: I have a turtle and upgraded-array-type, will do? ,)
2021-04-07T16:36:17Z jackdaniel gets back to work
2021-04-07T16:36:22Z Bike: turtles are nice too.
2021-04-07T16:36:33Z Xach: If your program does something very useful, people will often adapt to it, rather than demand vice versa
2021-04-07T16:37:03Z mfiano: THat's a major problem with Lisp. People often care more about the code than the artifact
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2021-04-07T16:38:14Z Xach: It's a problem with many forms of endeavor - obsession with the tools and their proper use rather than the product of the tools. But there's no denying that a nice tool, used properly, is a delight.
2021-04-07T16:38:17Z pve: lukego: I just assumed it was a trendy style in the early 90's and left it at that :)
2021-04-07T16:38:36Z lukego: I'll admit that I allow myself to spend much more creative energy on editing Lisp code than most other languages. I enjoy that though. keeps me amused while I'm programming
2021-04-07T16:38:45Z Xach thinks of people who post pictures of their workbench and planes rather than the useful objects produced with them
2021-04-07T16:39:04Z Shinmera: I hate my level editor a whole lot, but simply don't have the time to make it nice.
2021-04-07T16:39:13Z Shinmera: In some ways, having deadlines and such pressures is good.
2021-04-07T16:40:05Z Bike: if you're a compiler dev your work is increasingly elaborate pictures of workbenches
2021-04-07T16:40:15Z pve: lukego: but to be fair, it was written mostly by computational linguists who only wanted to get the job done
2021-04-07T16:40:41Z beach: Shinmera: Do you have a deadline for your game?
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2021-04-07T16:41:12Z Shinmera: Well the most pressing deadline is me running out of money, so I have to be very smart with that.
2021-04-07T16:41:26Z beach: Hmm, yes, I see.
2021-04-07T16:41:36Z Shinmera: Other than that we also have a release schedule we're aiming for, which is roughly 2 years from now.
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2021-04-07T16:44:39Z beach: Deadlines far in the future are tough.
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2021-04-07T16:56:46Z shka_: see: the global warming
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2021-04-07T17:13:42Z _death: jackdaniel: I'm surprised ;).. I expected some resistance, at least for the draw-arrow stuff, if not the keybindings (which I supposed must have had some good reason not to be there in the last 20 years)
2021-04-07T17:14:48Z jackdaniel: _death: after testing them I've decided that they are fine (and minor)
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2021-04-07T17:15:08Z jackdaniel: thanks!
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2021-04-07T17:17:40Z _death: jackdaniel: cool :).. I also had to patch the coordinates stuff, which currently has exact comparisons incl. on floats that causes trouble with ellipses, but I noticed the commented version and some old mcclim-devel discussions and some issues on github so I thought another approach may be on the queue
2021-04-07T17:18:38Z jackdaniel: I want to change the ellipse representation from parralelogram to something more stable (transformation-wise)
2021-04-07T17:19:20Z _death: yeah, that's one of things I gathered.. the exact comparisons may caused issues elsewhere too
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2021-04-07T17:19:58Z jackdaniel: comparisons are one issue, but the current code can error because of a non-reversible transformation (due to rounding errors)
2021-04-07T17:20:12Z jackdaniel: i.e after trying to rotate the ellipse
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2021-04-07T17:21:10Z _death: right.. there are two issues.. the inversion is easy to reproduce with the Fig example, and the comparison is easy with https://www.artm-friends.at/rm/kytron/kytron-clim.html (after small tweaks to make it work)
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2021-04-07T17:30:21Z _death: I also have some changes to scigraph, but it may be that it doesn't work right only for me.. I guess the most annoying issue right now is the repeated mapping and unmapping (with lots of match error 42) that happens if I switch windows in stumpwm, usually once per application frame.. also, (setf clim:*default-server-path* :clx) looks cool and retro :)
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2021-04-07T17:33:47Z _death: (to make clear, this issue is not limited to scigraph.. it often happens with any arbitrary application frame)
2021-04-07T17:34:25Z jackdaniel: the only moment I've worked with scigraph was the effort to make it "start"
2021-04-07T17:34:36Z jackdaniel: so I won't be much help with it :)
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2021-04-07T18:19:19Z hypercube: minion: source code
2021-04-07T18:19:22Z minion: please stop playing with me... i am not a toy
2021-04-07T18:19:48Z hypercube: lol im just curious about how u work
2021-04-07T18:20:43Z phoe: hypercube: https://github.com/stassats/lisp-bots/
2021-04-07T18:21:12Z hypercube: oh awesome, thank you phoe!
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2021-04-07T18:29:26Z phoe: I've updated the minion cliki page, now it points to that repo
2021-04-07T18:29:29Z phoe: minion: tell phoe about minion
2021-04-07T18:29:29Z minion: minion: https://www.cliki.net/minion
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2021-04-07T18:34:36Z gabc: phoe: just received your book, thanks for making it :)
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2021-04-07T18:34:45Z phoe: gabc: hope it serves you well
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2021-04-07T18:36:18Z albusp: Trying to get sly working with emacs, currently I don't have slynk running (no lisp process active), and indenting code in *.lisp files gives the error "Symbol’s function definition is void: sly-common-lisp-indent-function". I'm checking sly.el and others, and found a line in slynk.lisp mentioning the function: https://github.com/joaotavora/sly/blob/e927cdae984b2c3383e1e2358e37f1a4115b142e/slynk/slynk.lisp#L3996.
2021-04-07T18:36:21Z albusp: Does this mean the indent function will appear after a slynk starts running?
2021-04-07T18:37:03Z phoe: albusp: do you by any chance have sly and slime installed/loaded at the same time?
2021-04-07T18:37:21Z albusp: no, I removed slime after issues.
2021-04-07T18:37:55Z albusp: slynk is not yet running because it doesn't compile on abcl (yet - i'm trying to fix it)
2021-04-07T18:38:18Z albusp: maybe I should try sbcl case to see if the indent is running. let's see...
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2021-04-07T18:43:36Z albusp: yes, indent function appears after a slynk starts. :)
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2021-04-07T19:06:26Z contrapunctus: "Who needs DEFSTRUCT anyway.  You can just use CAR/CDR." lol I had to do a double take here, until I read the previous message 😄
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2021-04-07T19:40:41Z logand``: ;
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2021-04-07T20:00:14Z aeth: Everyone comes into Common Lisp for different reasons so there's no real one true way to represent something. If you really wanted to just use conses for everything, though, CL isn't really the right language for that because they're not optimized. (destructuring-bind is a very nice macro for handling conses, though)
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2021-04-07T20:24:42Z jmercouris: a way to (format "~a" 'symbol) in lowercase?
2021-04-07T20:24:46Z jmercouris: a directive for this?
2021-04-07T20:25:09Z jmercouris: (format nil "~a" 'symbol)
2021-04-07T20:25:24Z _death: ~(
2021-04-07T20:25:44Z jmercouris: _death: ?
2021-04-07T20:26:31Z jmercouris: ah: (format nil "~(~a~)" 'symbol)
2021-04-07T20:26:32Z _death: you don't speak format directivish?
2021-04-07T20:26:55Z jmercouris: apparently I do :-D
2021-04-07T20:26:59Z jmercouris: just took me a second to realize what you meant
2021-04-07T20:28:24Z aeth: jmercouris: *print-case* :downcase
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2021-04-07T20:28:59Z Josh_2: jmercouris: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/22_cha.htm
2021-04-07T20:30:18Z aeth: I guess that is equivalent, but it seems less readable to me than the more verbose (let ((*print-case* :downcase)) (format nil "~A" 'foo))
2021-04-07T20:30:38Z jmercouris: aeth: I just want it in a single format directive
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2021-04-07T20:30:42Z jmercouris: so I will leave it
2021-04-07T20:30:55Z jmercouris: would be a bit verbose to let bind print case for this specific thing
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2021-04-07T20:32:22Z aeth: ~( is useful, new information for me, too
2021-04-07T20:32:33Z aeth: I go back and forth between loving FORMAT and hating FORMAT so I'll probably use it in the future
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2021-04-07T20:32:46Z jmercouris: same
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2021-04-07T22:06:56Z no-defun-allowed: jmercouris: I think that if the result of evaluating X and X are equivalent, then you are saying that every evaluation has a fixed point.
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2021-04-07T22:07:56Z no-defun-allowed: That could be the case in e.g. Miranda or Haskell, as e.g. [x, y :: z] could evaluate to [1, 2, 3] which evaluates to [1, 2, 3] but not any Lisp.
2021-04-07T22:08:19Z jmercouris: I think when answering a question one should consider the context
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2021-04-07T22:08:49Z jmercouris: Answer to the audience skill level
2021-04-07T22:09:07Z no-defun-allowed: I think when using a word, one should consider what that word means.
2021-04-07T22:09:09Z jmercouris: Instead of giving a technically correct, but unhelpful response
2021-04-07T22:09:39Z no-defun-allowed: evaluates-to is not an equivalence relationship.
2021-04-07T22:09:56Z jmercouris: That’s not my point
2021-04-07T22:10:19Z no-defun-allowed: If it were, then e.g. X should always evaluate to 'X. I won't make an example for transitivity.
2021-04-07T22:10:36Z jmercouris: Not sure who you are explaining what to
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2021-04-07T22:11:00Z no-defun-allowed: You.
2021-04-07T22:11:44Z jmercouris: Oh I see
2021-04-07T22:11:53Z jmercouris: No need, I understand this concept already
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2021-04-07T22:17:12Z no-defun-allowed: So it would be evident why "equivalent" has a particular meaning when used in the context of Lisp evaluation?
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2021-04-07T22:26:58Z no-defun-allowed: (Actually, that is probably not even the case in Haskell or Miranda. We might say 2 and 1 + 1 are equivalent forms, but an evaluator for one of those languages might reduce 1 + 1 to 2, but not the other way around.)
2021-04-07T22:29:39Z sm2n: blah blah referential transparency, they are equal within the denotational semantics of the language
2021-04-07T22:29:47Z sm2n: (in haskell or whatever)
2021-04-07T22:30:37Z sm2n: in pure fp things are given their identity by their normal form under reduction, by church-rosser or related
2021-04-07T22:30:49Z sm2n: (assuming your stuff terminates)
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2021-04-07T22:56:17Z phantomics: Hey all, wondering if there's a library that converts HTML-encoded characters like &#34; to Unicode. Tried some HTML parsers that didn't do it and can't see anything to do it on CL package lists
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2021-04-07T23:13:56Z raeda: The numeric encoding is the code point number iirc. SBCL has unicode lookup by code point and you might be able to use CL-PPCRE to find & replace
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2021-04-07T23:14:27Z raeda: Not sure if there's any good way to convert the named escapes like &lt;
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2021-04-07T23:34:04Z Xach: phantomics: see the html-entities system
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2021-04-07T23:34:49Z Xach: (html-entities:decode-entities "&lt;&#34;&gt;") => "<\">"
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2021-04-07T23:35:27Z phantomics: Xach: thanks
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2021-04-07T23:41:47Z moon-child: no-defun-allowed, sm2n: no denotational semantics required, you can define equality strictly in terms of halting
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2021-04-07T23:43:07Z moon-child: given two expressions e1 and e2 in some language L, consider the universe of hole-containing programs within L.  For each of those programs, substitute each of e1 and e2 for the hole.  If there's any case when e1 causes a halt and e2 does not (or vice versa) then the expressions are not equivalent
2021-04-07T23:43:10Z moon-child: otherwise they are
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2021-04-07T23:53:51Z no-defun-allowed: This is somewhat more interesting than arguing that EVAL is not an equivalence relation.
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2021-04-08T01:18:30Z sm2n: moon-child: what about a language like idris where all well-formed programs are guaranteed to halt?
2021-04-08T01:18:35Z sm2n: that doesn't seem right
2021-04-08T01:21:11Z moon-child: sm2n: then idris is not turing-complete?
2021-04-08T01:21:38Z sm2n: strictly speaking, I believe so
2021-04-08T01:21:43Z moon-child: I don't think that definition is usually applied to non turing-complete languages
2021-04-08T01:22:09Z Bike: i don't understand this definition even without fancy schmancy programmin' languages
2021-04-08T01:22:17Z Bike: er, wait
2021-04-08T01:22:21Z sm2n: you have to prove all the bounds on your computations statically in idris
2021-04-08T01:22:23Z Bike: are you saying do this for all possible programs?
2021-04-08T01:22:26Z sm2n: yeah
2021-04-08T01:22:40Z Bike: oh, well then that works.
2021-04-08T01:23:00Z Bike: you're including programs like (unless (= _ 4) (loop)) after all
2021-04-08T01:23:17Z moon-child: right
2021-04-08T01:23:39Z moon-child: the advantage of that definition is that it works for all turing-complete languages without needing to have any knowledge of their semantics beyond that
2021-04-08T01:24:07Z sm2n: cool, I learned something today, thanks
2021-04-08T01:24:29Z moon-child: :)
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2021-04-08T01:30:59Z sm2n: or actually, moon-child, do you happen to have a reference that discusses this? I'd like to read more about it
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2021-04-08T03:09:50Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-04-08T03:13:12Z lukego: Thanks everyone for the rigorous discussion of datatype definition styles yesterday. I reread the Serapeum docs from beginning to end to try and update my mental model. For really ad-hoc internal data structures I need to experiment with DICT/MATCH and with DEFUNION.
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2021-04-08T03:18:59Z lukego: Maybe DEFCLASS verses DEFCLASS-STD (etc) is a false dichotomy and really there are a lot of different contexts for defining datatypes that each call for a separate mechanism. kinda like IF and WHEN and UNLESS and so on.
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2021-04-08T03:19:54Z lukego: I notice though that all this obsessing about how to define datatypes has not actually caused my broken program to start working and maybe I should try a different approach to that problem...
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2021-04-08T03:36:16Z Josh_2: just use lists, simple az
2021-04-08T03:37:28Z beach: I think we heard all the arguments around half a day ago.
2021-04-08T03:40:43Z beach: I completely misunderstood the context and thought lukego and jmercouris were talking about the use of these operators in more-or-less final code, but it became clear that they meant the use in code that is highly likely to change, to be rewritten, or to be deleted entirely.
2021-04-08T03:41:57Z lukego: beach: I am feeling less provoked by your "if you don't care about X" comments when I read that as "when you are not immediately concerned about X in your present context" rather than "when you are a bad person because you don't give X due respect" :)
2021-04-08T03:42:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: iI see I missed all the fun
2021-04-08T03:43:22Z beach: lukego: Sure, that's a good interpretation in your case.  Not so with many others who come here and who have no idea about elementary software engineering.
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2021-04-08T03:44:11Z no-defun-allowed: fiddlerwoaroof: Yes, you're supposed to use generic functions, i.e. no defun. Cancel out the two negatives, and you have only fun.
2021-04-08T03:44:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: I personally really dislike non-extensible conditional constructs
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2021-04-08T03:44:40Z lukego: it's a new revelation to me now though that there are a bunch of other macros, e.g. DEFCONSTRUCTOR from Serapeum, that actually capture the context i.e. that is something that you only use for a quick and simple local representation of immutable structures.
2021-04-08T03:44:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: e.g. I almost always use generic functions instead of case/cond and friends
2021-04-08T03:45:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: And, what I've noticed, is that almost all "functional" programming languages use constructs that are OOP in CLOS's sense
2021-04-08T03:46:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: Clojure's multimethods are just a bad version of CLOS and Haskell has typeclasses everywhere, which basically are a compile-time version of generic dispatch
2021-04-08T03:46:15Z lukego: and that puts me off defclass-std as being "yet another defclass" rather than something complementary that's tailored to a more specific use case.
2021-04-08T03:46:47Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: You must have missed the general consensus here in #lisp that you should avoid generic functions since they are bad for performance.
2021-04-08T03:47:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't worry about performance until I have to
2021-04-08T03:47:08Z beach hasn't finished his coffee yet, and feels cranky still.
2021-04-08T03:47:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: I guess I'm a bad programmer
2021-04-08T03:47:17Z Josh_2: beach: that was the general consensus? Folks must have gone mad ;)
2021-04-08T03:47:19Z beach: I guess so.
2021-04-08T03:47:27Z beach: Josh_2: I am joking.
2021-04-08T03:48:05Z Josh_2: :P
2021-04-08T03:48:45Z lukego: I liked splittist's comment that the rest of the world is built in Javascript these days so there's nothing particularly indulgent about using all the generics and indirections you please. Chrome has reset the bar on what is appropriate resource utilization by software and we can all rejoice in our relative thrift :)
2021-04-08T03:49:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: JS is pretty fast, though
2021-04-08T03:49:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: Like, I think it's probably hard to right a compiler for a dynamic language that comes close to V8
2021-04-08T03:49:51Z beach: lukego: Facts like that don't seem to prevent eternal discussions about performance.  Not to mention the size of executables.
2021-04-08T03:50:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: I mean, like 90% of companies run on some combination of Python, Ruby or PHP
2021-04-08T03:50:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: If we want to talk about performance not mattering
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2021-04-08T03:51:14Z beach: That's very sobering to hear.
2021-04-08T03:51:18Z lukego: fiddlerwoaroof: so much the better :) writing slow code is contributing to computer science by stimulating compiler research, just look at javascript...
2021-04-08T03:51:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: The great thing about CL is that I find I can just write CL in most situations where I'd use FFI in Python
2021-04-08T03:51:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: Not to mention actually being able to benefit from multiple threads of executin
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2021-04-08T03:52:32Z beach: The more I hear about Python (the language) the more I think it's a joke, and the more I am totally baffled why anyone would want to use it.
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2021-04-08T03:52:53Z Josh_2: its easy and promoted a lot
2021-04-08T03:52:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's all about the libraries, really
2021-04-08T03:53:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: Also, it's relatively quick to go from nothing to a proof of concept in Python
2021-04-08T03:54:28Z mfiano: I don't buy the last bit
2021-04-08T03:54:40Z lukego: I like that "I must program as inefficiently as possible" mantra. that it's healthy mental exercise to burn CPU cycles and you should strive to do it as much as you can get away with.
2021-04-08T03:55:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: :)
2021-04-08T03:55:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: lukego: "only optimize problems you can measure" is pretty standard advice
2021-04-08T03:55:56Z lukego: or maybe we should fight to get our own code a respectable share of our CPU's cycles relative to e.g. Chrome and the idle loop :)
2021-04-08T03:56:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't take a program seriously that doesn't pin at least one CPU core and consume 4GB of RAM
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2021-04-08T03:59:31Z lukego: (also my code is working now and it's massively improved compared with the previous messy version so thanks everybody who helped me pick the right color for my bikeshed, it worked out in the end)
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2021-04-08T04:01:00Z lukego: I really notice that after a break from Lisp hacking it takes a while to reabsorb all the old idioms and learn new ones. a bit like taking a break from speaking english. big languages full of nuance that are always evolving.
2021-04-08T04:01:23Z beach: I am reminded of the remarks by several students in the past when they were given a bad grade on some programs: "But it works!!!".
2021-04-08T04:02:33Z beach: lukego: Congratulations to being back!
2021-04-08T04:02:40Z lukego: thanks :)
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2021-04-08T04:32:59Z no-defun-allowed: beach: From memory, the marking system at my last university was predominantly marking what ran. Who were you teaching?
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2021-04-08T04:38:40Z beach: Final year undergraduates and first year masters students.  The message was always that a program that works but that is unmaintainable is useless because it must be thrown away when the requirements change, but a program that does not work but is maintainable can be made to work more easily.
2021-04-08T04:39:10Z beach: So we read the code of each program and graded (marked) it according to these criteria.
2021-04-08T04:40:01Z beach: I am totally sure that this is still the case for the masters students, because I know the person running that course very well, and we share the same values when it comes to software development.
2021-04-08T04:40:15Z no-defun-allowed: I see.
2021-04-08T04:40:17Z beach: For the undergraduates, I haven't kept up, so I don't know.
2021-04-08T04:43:46Z beach: It was a lot of work, of course.  But more to the point, this kind of grading requires the teachers to be competent in software development, and that is typically not the case when they are hired, as I have already explained.  So these teachers had to invest a lot of time reading and writing code, books, and articles about software development.
2021-04-08T04:44:48Z beach: And that time was not explicitly paid.  In fact, by spending that time on teaching rather than on some narrow research, their careers were often delayed.
2021-04-08T04:47:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've always thought that the way universities have seemed to unified research professors and teaching professors is bad for everyon
2021-04-08T04:48:12Z moon-child: fiddlerwoaroof: I think the theory, at least, is to avoid 'those who can't do teach'
2021-04-08T04:48:46Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: Not usually.  Take mathematics or the sciences (physics, chemistry).  The undergraduate teaching doesn't require them to keep up, or to acquire skills from industry.  The material is the same from one year to another.
2021-04-08T04:49:24Z beach: The problem is that the computer science programs accepted to take on the teaching of programming and software development.
2021-04-08T04:49:33Z lukego: I approach software development more like the way people advise writers to write. lots of drafts and rewrites and darlings and murders and so on. but desired end result is still the same as people who do things right first time.
2021-04-08T04:50:03Z beach: If they had stayed with theory, like computability, complexity theory, etc.  There would be no problem.
2021-04-08T04:50:32Z lukego: I often don't even compile my first version of a program before rewriting it - just dump it out into emacs to organize my thoughts - so I really don't want to spend cycles thinking about optimization or maintainability or even syntax errors in that context.
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2021-04-08T04:51:07Z beach: lukego: What's the context?
2021-04-08T04:51:38Z beach: lukego: As in, what prompted you to say that?
2021-04-08T04:51:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, my background is mostly in the humanities (grad school and undergrad): but, my experience there was that the professors who were really good at research often weren't great to have as a teacher while the ones that you wanted to teach you often weren't the people who are famous for their ideas
2021-04-08T04:51:57Z no-defun-allowed: beach: I think lukego is continuing with the discussion on performance.
2021-04-08T04:52:04Z beach: Oh!
2021-04-08T04:52:25Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: I can imagine that, sure.
2021-04-08T04:52:50Z lukego: beach: mostly just reflecting on friction in the discussion yesterday, specifically realizing that when I'm in "rough first draft that won't even compile" mode I'll naturally be at odds with your advice about how to write clean code that will pass formal review.
2021-04-08T04:52:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: Anyways, I'll go back to being on-topic
2021-04-08T04:52:55Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: The problem in software development is that we have no good way to select knowledgeable teachers.
2021-04-08T04:53:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, measuring "teaching" as such is always the challenge
2021-04-08T04:53:30Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: And in software development, there is the problem of competence.
2021-04-08T04:53:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: Research has measurable outputs in a way teaching doesn't
2021-04-08T04:53:44Z no-defun-allowed: (...to which I think Joe Armstrong nailed the apparent decision between performance and good design with "Make it work, then make it beautiful, then if you really, really have to, make it fast. 90 percent of the time, if you make it beautiful, it will already be fast. So really, just make it beautiful!")
2021-04-08T04:53:49Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: Not many people have it, and there is nobody to determine who does.
2021-04-08T04:54:11Z moon-child: imo 'make it fast' is a misnomer.  There is no fast code.  There is slow code, and if code is slow then it bears to make it not slow
2021-04-08T04:54:21Z lukego: beach: and I guess that there are different kinds of advice about how to write good code. one kind focuses on what the result should look like - clean interfaces, etc - and the other focuses on the process - should have been rewritten at least N times and be only 1/Mth its original line count
2021-04-08T04:55:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: lukego: I generally write the code you're talking about as drafts in the repl
2021-04-08T04:55:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: After I'm fairly satisfied with a solution, I copy it into a file and generalize
2021-04-08T04:56:07Z lukego: fiddlerwoaroof: I'm becoming more extreme over the years. I can easily spend several weeks writing draft code that never compiles. I wouldn't do that in the repl
2021-04-08T04:56:20Z no-defun-allowed: Or at least, I think my "fast code" is relatively nice, because it uses the right data structures and algorithms and whatever else that quiche-eater Nicholas Wirth probably said was good.
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2021-04-08T04:57:50Z lukego: maybe I'm progressing in my career towards drawing useless UML diagrams all day in some senior role at an IBM-alike.
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2021-04-08T05:00:45Z fe[nl]ix: lukego: something to live for
2021-04-08T05:00:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: lukego: my career started out with Delphi and, ever since that was taken away, I've found it really annoying to write GUI software
2021-04-08T05:01:16Z lukego: fe[nl]ix: die a hero, live a villain, etc, i guess :)
2021-04-08T05:01:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: And by "career", I'm starting when I was about 7
2021-04-08T05:02:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, I just find most of the modern development tools annoying
2021-04-08T05:02:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: CL in emacs, so far is the least bad
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2021-04-08T05:14:14Z moon-child: fiddlerwoaroof: have you seen fpc/lazarus?
2021-04-08T05:17:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: moon-child: yeah, I've even used it a bit here and there
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2021-04-08T05:18:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's annoying to setup on a Mac and relatively unstable (at least, the Cocoa port is), but the experience of using it still is so much better than the React stuff that pays the bills
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2021-04-08T05:19:36Z lukego: I'm really impressed with GToolkit for Pharo Smalltalk as a development environment. I started off using it for this project before switching to lisp
2021-04-08T05:20:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's something I think about every once in a while: as an industry, I've begun to think our memories are so short that we just forget everything that happened more than five years ago or so
2021-04-08T05:20:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: lukego: yeah, I've always been interested in that ecosystem, but I've found it hard to get started
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2021-04-08T05:22:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: Like, I'm working on a react native application and everyone's talking about how "X doesn't work for mobile apps because of how much harder it is to deploy mobile apps than websites", completely ignoring that X was practiced when shipping an update meant shipping CDs in boxes
2021-04-08T05:22:45Z lukego: I think that my memory is becoming more of a "high-pass" filter, seems to just ignore anything that happened _less_ than five years ago and assume it's a passing fad
2021-04-08T05:22:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: :)
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2021-04-08T05:30:04Z no-defun-allowed: Most of the references in the book I sometimes write are from 2010-2019 or 1990-1999. Did people just not have ideas in 2000-2009?
2021-04-08T05:30:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: no-defun-allowed: what was the Web 2.0 era, right?
2021-04-08T05:31:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's all XML
2021-04-08T05:31:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: And Java applications glued together using XML
2021-04-08T05:31:29Z no-defun-allowed: Now that you mention it.
2021-04-08T05:31:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: XSLT and XPath get an honorable mention (both of which I actually secretly like)
2021-04-08T05:34:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's also notable for the ascendancy of Ruby on Rails and the rise of Agile
2021-04-08T05:38:36Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: for programming? in the early '00s "everyone" got laid off and left the industry because of the dot-com bust.
2021-04-08T05:39:19Z aeth: you can also look at some interesting stats like enrollments in university comp sci departments.
2021-04-08T05:39:40Z no-defun-allowed: aeth: Well, mostly programming. Though if I redraw the histogram with 5-year bars, I see that 2005-2009 was strangely quiet.
2021-04-08T05:40:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: The last time Haskell was a language with a specification and multiple viable implementations :0
2021-04-08T05:40:36Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: web 2.0 era?
2021-04-08T05:40:58Z no-defun-allowed: Appears like it, as O'Reilly popularised the term in 2004.
2021-04-08T05:41:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, V8/the JVM's tracing JIT dates to about then too
2021-04-08T05:41:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think
2021-04-08T05:42:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: I guess I'm wrong about the JVM's JIT, but V8 is then
2021-04-08T05:42:15Z no-defun-allowed: The 90s brought about Squeak, the end of Self, the Unix-Hater's Handbook and the second edition of SICP.
2021-04-08T05:42:36Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, the Self compiler people moved to Strongtalk and then the JVM.
2021-04-08T05:43:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: The 2000s were basically the years when Microsoft was at the height of its power, afaict
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2021-04-08T05:44:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: The Unix vendors were basically irrelevant for most people, the Web was still being held back by IE6
2021-04-08T05:44:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: And smartphones weren't yet around, really
2021-04-08T05:44:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: (sorry, Blackberry users)
2021-04-08T05:48:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: lukego, you just showed up in a Google search: https://github.com/lukego/blog/issues/5
2021-04-08T05:48:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: (via a hackernews result for "JVM tracing JIT")
2021-04-08T05:56:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: lukego: I'm also curious why you're rewriting from gtoolkit to lisp
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2021-04-08T06:39:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: Does anyone happen to have a VNC server written in CL?
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2021-04-08T06:47:41Z lukego: fiddlerwoaroof: the ultimate reason that I switched from gtoolkit to lisp is for the language. in Lisp I feel free to write basically pseudocode and gradually massage/rewrite it into something the compiler understands. in smalltalk I can't even Save code that doesn't have correct syntax, isn't organized into classes, doesn't adhere to the rules about inheritance and traits, etc.
2021-04-08T06:48:20Z lukego: but I've used gtoolkit a lot in a previous project and the big problem then was that they were constantly rewriting it and it was very difficult to build from source (which i spent weeks and weeks fighting and ultimately gave up on)
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2021-04-08T06:52:06Z lukego: but I think that I was unlucky with timing -- I wrote an application based on the "old gtoolkit" that they did at a university and then they immediately formed a company to develop the "new gtoolkit" and there was an awkward period there where the old version wasn't supported anymore but the new version wasn't ready to use yet
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2021-04-08T06:57:21Z lukego: bringing this back to lisp -- it's actually a strength that a lot of stuff here is basically the same as it has always been. I don't spend my time trying to keep up with the ecosystem every month -- or even necessarily have to worry about what's changed in the past 10/20 years.
2021-04-08T06:59:04Z lukego: maybe I'm getting old but "stability" is a feature to me these days and pretty high on my priority list. I'm glad that Lispers don't "burn the diskpacks" every five years.
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2021-04-08T07:06:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I really grew to appreciate that, both in CL and in working with Clojure
2021-04-08T07:07:11Z lukego: random follow up of past discussion: I'm super happy with the 1AM unit test framework. it's about 80 lines of code and just the right level of minimalism for me.
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2021-04-08T09:27:51Z asarch: If I had: '(:|beer| 10 :|pizza| 4 :|tacos| 8) how could I converted to: (:beer 10 :pizza 4 :tacos 8)?
2021-04-08T09:28:26Z asarch: s/to: (:beer 10 :pizza 4 :tacos 8)/to: '(:beer 10 :pizza 4 :tacos 8)/
2021-04-08T09:28:55Z no-defun-allowed: Dare I ask why you have the former?
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2021-04-08T09:29:11Z asarch: It is a query result
2021-04-08T09:29:50Z asarch: If that would be stored in food, doing a (getf food :|pizza|) would gives me only the value
2021-04-08T09:29:55Z beach: asarch: Someone must have turned the string "beer" into a symbol?
2021-04-08T09:30:07Z asarch: Is there any way to modify the key?
2021-04-08T09:30:38Z no-defun-allowed: What did you use to generate that list? I am guessing some parser took every key and did (intern <key> '#:keyword)
2021-04-08T09:30:48Z beach: asarch: I think we are saying, don't create a symbol with lower-case letters in the first place.
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2021-04-08T09:31:52Z asarch: That's the result of a query with CL-DBI: (dbi:fetch-all (dbi:execute (dbi:prepare *connection* "SELECT * FROM somewhere WHERE flag = ? OR updated_at > ?") (list 0 "2011-11-01")))
2021-04-08T09:32:03Z no-defun-allowed: Does cl-json do that? No, that generates alists and converts to upper kebab-case by default -- oh okay.
2021-04-08T09:32:13Z White_Flame: I would mapcar, and if a term is keywordp, re-intern it under *package*
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2021-04-08T09:33:03Z White_Flame: or probably easier but less robust would be (read-from-string (symbol-name key))
2021-04-08T09:33:21Z White_Flame: only if you are certain of the keywords being safe syntax
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2021-04-08T09:33:47Z beach: asarch: Next question: Why do you want to convert those symbols to upper case?
2021-04-08T09:33:52Z no-defun-allowed: An interesting result format. (n.b. I think you should stash the prepared statement somewhere, if it hasn't been folded in for the example.)
2021-04-08T09:33:53Z beach: Aren't they fine as they are?
2021-04-08T09:34:17Z White_Flame: oh wait, you did want the result still as keywords
2021-04-08T09:34:37Z White_Flame: but yeah, I agree with beach.  The canonical names are :|beer| etc, use that syntax
2021-04-08T09:35:05Z White_Flame: if the names all of a sudden have other cases, for some reason, or you need to re-assert into the database that those came from, you need to use the same key
2021-04-08T09:35:46Z asarch: Well, I have some functions that retrieve data a la (getf food :pizza)
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2021-04-08T09:37:49Z beach: Don't do that then.  Do (getf food :|pizza| instead.
2021-04-08T09:38:22Z beach: asarch: Why would you use a key with GETF that is not one that is in your list?
2021-04-08T09:38:53Z asarch: Here in México Dell is selling this https://pasteboard.co/JVwoB5Y.jpg at the ridiculous prices of ~$1,000 USD. It would be great instead of a "normal" laptop, right?
2021-04-08T09:39:14Z asarch: Because there are two ways of doing the queries
2021-04-08T09:39:37Z asarch: The A method and the B method. This, the :|pizza| is the result of the B method
2021-04-08T09:40:10Z asarch: I usually do with the A method, that's why I have all these functions getting data from the list with (getf food :pizza)
2021-04-08T09:40:43Z White_Flame: then fix the queries to always return the same form of the keys
2021-04-08T09:41:07Z asarch: That's exactly what I am trying to do
2021-04-08T09:41:21Z asarch: That is the point of my question
2021-04-08T09:42:11Z White_Flame: (intern (string-upcase :|foo|) (symbol-package :keyword)) => :FOO
2021-04-08T09:42:45Z asarch: WOW!!!
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2021-04-08T09:44:27Z asarch: One last question: how do you get automatically the keys (:|beer| 10 :|pizza| 4 :|tacos| 8)?
2021-04-08T09:44:41Z White_Flame: or from alexandria, (make-keyword (string-upcase :|foo|)) => :FOO
2021-04-08T09:44:53Z White_Flame: I'd just mapcar it
2021-04-08T09:45:11Z White_Flame: if you have any values that need the same treatment
2021-04-08T09:45:23Z White_Flame: else, LOOP can handle 2 elements at a time pretty easily
2021-04-08T09:45:52Z White_Flame: there's also doplist in alexandria, where you can PUSH your own result list
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2021-04-08T09:48:52Z silasfox: (defun upcase-keyword (x)
2021-04-08T09:48:53Z silasfox: 	   (if (keywordp x)
2021-04-08T09:48:53Z silasfox: 	       (intern (string-upcase x) (symbol-package :keyword))
2021-04-08T09:48:54Z silasfox: 	       x))
2021-04-08T09:49:17Z silasfox:  (mapcar #'upcase-keyword '(:|beer| 10 :|pizza| 4 :|tacos| 8)) => (:beer 10 :pizza 4 :tacos 8)
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2021-04-08T09:50:39Z beach: silasfox: Please use a paste site for code longer than a single line.
2021-04-08T09:51:06Z silasfox: OK, I'll do so in the future.
2021-04-08T09:51:51Z asarch: Yeah, I was this close to the result :-P
2021-04-08T09:51:53Z beach: Also, it's not so great to apply a function named UPCASE-KEYWORD to numbers.
2021-04-08T09:52:20Z beach: silasfox: In particular, if the value is a keyword, that should perhaps not be altered.
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2021-04-08T09:53:21Z asarch: Nice, isn't it?
2021-04-08T09:54:09Z beach: Furthermore, INTERN takes a "package designator", so you can say (intern ... "KEYWORD")
2021-04-08T09:54:31Z White_Flame: UPCASE-IF-KEYWORD maybe
2021-04-08T09:54:37Z beach: And (symbol-package :keyword) is a bit strange anyway.
2021-04-08T09:54:47Z asarch: You should write an æncyclopedia about this snippets
2021-04-08T09:54:54Z White_Flame: yeah, i always forget about package designators and always just grab a package quickly
2021-04-08T09:55:11Z beach: (find-package "KEYWORD") would be better.
2021-04-08T09:56:21Z beach now fears getting the "but it works" treatment. 
2021-04-08T09:56:40Z silasfox: beach: Not at all, thanks for teaching me something.
2021-04-08T09:56:50Z beach: Pleasure.
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2021-04-08T10:01:07Z White_Flame: beach: actually, I think it started off as more a performance thing.  (find-package ...) is a function call but (symbol-package ..) just reads a slot from a read-time-interned symbol ;)
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2021-04-08T10:01:29Z White_Flame: (as in, nitpicky cycles that don't really matter but dangit this is more direct :) )
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2021-04-08T10:10:44Z beach: In that case, I would do #.(find-package "KEYWORD").
2021-04-08T10:11:14Z beach: Or (load-time-value (find-package "KEYWORD"))
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2021-04-08T10:13:49Z beach: White_Flame, on the other hand, SYMBOL-PACKAGE may very well be a generic function in some implementations, and everyone knows how slow a call to a generic function can be. :)
2021-04-08T10:16:28Z asarch: Yeah! It worked! La vie in rose gentlemen! Cheers! o/
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2021-04-08T10:29:16Z asarch: Thank you guys
2021-04-08T10:29:24Z asarch: Thank you very much :-)
2021-04-08T10:29:29Z asarch: Have a nice day
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2021-04-08T10:48:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: Well, I've solved one problem I had with lisp graphics
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2021-04-08T10:48:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: Rather than figure out how to interface with my OS, I've discovered it's relatively simple to write a VNC server that serves a framebuffer over the "network"
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2021-04-08T10:49:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: This lets me let the VNC client figure out how to display the framebuffer
2021-04-08T10:50:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: And when I say "write a VNC server", I mean "fix a code sample I found online"
2021-04-08T10:50:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/flux/vnc.lisp
2021-04-08T10:51:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: Now, I just need to figure out how to teach McCLIM how to write to this server
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2021-04-08T10:57:12Z scymtym: fiddlerwoaroof: for a McCLIM backend, you have to decide on the frame management model: should the VNC server expose some sort of virtual desktop with multiple windows ("frames" in CLIM terminology) and window management or should the VNC server correspond to a single window and always show the content of that window?
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2021-04-08T10:59:10Z scymtym: this is an example of the former, that is multiple frames with decorations, etc. in a browser tab: https://techfak.de/~jmoringe/mcclim-broadway-7.ogv
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2021-04-08T11:02:11Z Krystof: wow.
2021-04-08T11:02:27Z Krystof: Are you round-tripping to the server for each input event?
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2021-04-08T11:02:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: That's a cool demo, the issue I always have is the "window in window" paradigm there always feels a bit odd
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2021-04-08T11:15:47Z scymtym: fiddlerwoaroof: yes, there is a websocket connection that sends input events from the javascript client to the server and sends display commands from the server to the javascript client
2021-04-08T11:16:17Z scymtym: Krystof: sorry, that was meant for you
2021-04-08T11:16:37Z scymtym: fiddlerwoaroof: i agree. that's why i brought up the issue
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2021-04-08T11:44:28Z lukego: silasfox: did you just write an irc message that included newlines and indentation? is that possible? <mind-blown.gif>
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2021-04-08T12:04:17Z silasfox: lukego: I copy-pasted from my slime-repl... Apparently that is possible.
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2021-04-08T12:29:23Z SAL9000: lukego: "newlines" in IRC come through as multiple messages, and more than 3-4 such lines usually cause the server to rate-limit you
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2021-04-08T12:39:14Z splittist: scymtym: <mouth open in stunned admiration emoji>
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2021-04-08T13:04:07Z jmercouris: reccommendations on expert systems in CL?
2021-04-08T13:04:37Z jackdaniel: clips ,)
2021-04-08T13:05:18Z jackdaniel: (that was a joke, clips is written in c, but it supports sexpressions)
2021-04-08T13:07:02Z jmercouris: I'm not interested in using C
2021-04-08T13:07:24Z jmercouris: maybe if it is really good I could make a plugin
2021-04-08T13:08:26Z splittist: jmercouris: how much do you need beyond the toy mycin in PAIP?
2021-04-08T13:08:35Z jmercouris: I need something extremely performant
2021-04-08T13:08:58Z jmercouris: I want to identify logical fallacies in documents by extracting rules from them
2021-04-08T13:09:24Z splittist: Where's the expert part?
2021-04-08T13:09:35Z jmercouris: there are rules, and there are questions
2021-04-08T13:09:50Z jmercouris: the questions will be created by the user to determine if a piece of text is logically sound
2021-04-08T13:10:03Z jmercouris: the rules are created by the program analyzing the text
2021-04-08T13:10:11Z jmercouris: as such, there may be many many rules
2021-04-08T13:10:40Z sm2n: that sounds more like a model checker than an expert system
2021-04-08T13:10:47Z sm2n: with some nlp magic
2021-04-08T13:11:46Z splittist: jmercouris: to help my understand, why can't the user read the document?
2021-04-08T13:11:53Z splittist: s/my/me/
2021-04-08T13:12:04Z sm2n: I'm assuming this is some fake news detection thing
2021-04-08T13:12:08Z jackdaniel: it is the full automatization - you don't need to read the document to browse it
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2021-04-08T13:12:40Z jmercouris: sm2n: correct
2021-04-08T13:12:51Z jmercouris: the user should read the document
2021-04-08T13:13:00Z jmercouris: I want some ways to help identify BS on the internet
2021-04-08T13:13:08Z jmercouris: a BS metric if you will, that the user can use to make informed decisions
2021-04-08T13:13:29Z jmercouris: this is one of many models I have in mind...
2021-04-08T13:13:42Z jmercouris: so I wanted to play around with some expert systems
2021-04-08T13:13:54Z jmercouris: see if they could identify logically inconsistent documents
2021-04-08T13:14:01Z splittist: The correct heuristic is, presumably: if it is on the internet, it is BS
2021-04-08T13:14:15Z jmercouris: splittist: I'm afraid that is not useful, or true
2021-04-08T13:14:29Z jmercouris: the very fact that you said that, on the internet, is a fallacy on of itself
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2021-04-08T13:14:35Z splittist: jmercouris: as sm2n says, this is sort of the opposite of what I understand an expert system is
2021-04-08T13:14:41Z sm2n: I don't think using automated nlp is a good idea... it suffers from similar issues as the misinformation generating processes
2021-04-08T13:14:55Z jmercouris: sm2n: how would you tackle this problem?
2021-04-08T13:16:15Z sm2n: I think the general idea is decent though, say you have a document open, maybe you could have a "pane" or something that displays a formalized logical inference tree, in natural deduction form or something
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2021-04-08T13:16:34Z sm2n: the reader could fill it out as they read
2021-04-08T13:16:49Z jmercouris: what is a formalized logical inference tree?
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2021-04-08T13:17:24Z sm2n: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_deduction , though you don't need the fancy deduction
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2021-04-08T13:18:11Z sm2n: if it's sufficiently formalized, you can even pass it to a proof assistant like Z3
2021-04-08T13:18:30Z sm2n: and generate some logical consequences
2021-04-08T13:18:34Z jmercouris: I see what you mean
2021-04-08T13:18:45Z sm2n: *fancy notation, whoops
2021-04-08T13:18:50Z jmercouris: I don't think someone susceptible to 'fake news' will have the rigor to complete such an exercise
2021-04-08T13:18:59Z jmercouris: I could very well be wrong, but I have a strong intuition
2021-04-08T13:19:05Z sm2n: yeah, that is the issue
2021-04-08T13:19:06Z jmercouris: that there is an inverse relationship with intelligence...
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2021-04-08T13:19:12Z splittist: I'm not seeing how computers help here. Take this text: "The LaTeX sources were converted to html using the latex2html program. We fixed many of the glitches by hand, but may have missed some. When in doubt, check your copy of the original paperbound version." What is supposed to happen when I'm browsing that?
2021-04-08T13:19:45Z jmercouris: LaTeX sources were converted to html using the latex2html -> latex2html converts latex to html
2021-04-08T13:20:03Z jmercouris: that's probably about all it could realistically extract
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2021-04-08T13:20:55Z jmercouris: there are only two assertions in the above text
2021-04-08T13:21:02Z _death: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2379#2379
2021-04-08T13:21:02Z jmercouris: well, maybe three
2021-04-08T13:21:22Z sm2n: if you are going to try nlp, I would make it optional
2021-04-08T13:21:41Z jmercouris: _death: :-D always good for a laugh
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2021-04-08T13:21:50Z splittist: Hmm. If I'm reading an article that says "All men are mortal. Socrates is a man. Therefore global warming is [insert conclusion here]" a big red cross appears saying "incorrect inference"?
2021-04-08T13:21:50Z jmercouris: sm2n: of course, all the NLP we have is already optional
2021-04-08T13:21:51Z sm2n: use some nlp feature extraction algorithm to initially populate a deduction tree
2021-04-08T13:22:03Z sm2n: it can then be manually tweaked etc
2021-04-08T13:22:04Z jmercouris: splittist: I should hope so!
2021-04-08T13:22:06Z sm2n: no black boxes
2021-04-08T13:22:15Z jmercouris: no black boxes indeed...
2021-04-08T13:23:26Z sm2n: at least, that is my take, error prone automated processes should augment human reasoning, not replace it
2021-04-08T13:23:38Z jmercouris: absolutely, that's why I have this article I wrote
2021-04-08T13:23:55Z jmercouris: https://nyxt.atlas.engineer/article/dbscan.org
2021-04-08T13:24:07Z jmercouris: our clustering for buffers in the buffer list view is OPTIONAL!
2021-04-08T13:24:12Z jmercouris: and completely configurable/understandable
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2021-04-08T13:25:00Z sm2n: nice
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2021-04-08T13:27:31Z jmercouris: "Computationally augmented browsing"
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2021-04-08T13:33:17Z jackdaniel:  minion: spec with-snake-oil macro
2021-04-08T13:34:05Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: what are you saying?
2021-04-08T13:35:09Z jackdaniel: I am saying that I see plenty of buzzwords that are not ontopic on this channel and could be categorized as a deceptive marketing
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2021-04-08T13:38:33Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: are you saying that I am engaging in deceptive marketing?
2021-04-08T13:40:10Z jackdaniel: no, I am saying that "I see plenty of buzzwords that are not ontopic on this channel and could be categorized as a deceptive marketing"; I'll put an emphasis on the offtopic aspect of that statement
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2021-04-08T14:47:49Z VincentVega: With a macro's lambda list &key, is it possible to identify the order in which the keys were supplied?
2021-04-08T14:47:54Z phoe: no
2021-04-08T14:48:05Z phoe: if you need that, do (&rest args &key ...)
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2021-04-08T14:50:36Z VincentVega: phoe: great, thank you!
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2021-04-08T15:00:52Z jmercouris: phoe: the implementation should know though right?
2021-04-08T15:01:00Z phoe: jmercouris: what do you mean, the implementation?
2021-04-08T15:01:16Z phoe: with &key, the order is absolutely unimportant unless you have duplicates
2021-04-08T15:01:26Z jmercouris: SBCL would know exactly the lambda list passed into a funcall
2021-04-08T15:01:29Z phoe: :foo 1 :bar 2 is the same as :bar 2 :foo 1
2021-04-08T15:01:40Z jmercouris: Sure, SBCL should know what I sent
2021-04-08T15:01:44Z phoe: jmercouris: this isn't really a SBCL issue
2021-04-08T15:02:00Z jmercouris: Wouldnt it be possible though?
2021-04-08T15:02:05Z phoe: every Lisp implementation does know exactly what you send, because it can make it available if you pass &rest
2021-04-08T15:02:22Z jmercouris: I’m not making much sense
2021-04-08T15:02:26Z jmercouris: Forget what I said lol
2021-04-08T15:02:31Z phoe: okay
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2021-04-08T15:48:32Z Josh_2: Ello ello
2021-04-08T15:48:40Z phoe: heyyyy
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2021-04-08T16:03:03Z Josh_2: What crazy thing are we gonna talk about today? How about the performance of CL? jk jk
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2021-04-08T16:31:14Z contrapunctus: Anyone here use redshank? It sounds quite cool but I've not heard much about it.
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2021-04-08T16:33:11Z contrapunctus: It's a bunch of commands for performing some common insertions and modifications in CL code.
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2021-04-08T16:43:47Z ck_: I have used it sometimes in the past, yes. Some functions more than others, mostly the moderately simple stuff like extract-defun
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2021-04-08T16:44:43Z ck_: it didn't feel like a significant improvement over manually (par-)editing; maybe I didn't spend enough time with it
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2021-04-08T16:51:47Z attila_lendvai: is rpav of c2ffi fame around?
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2021-04-08T16:52:42Z mfiano: attila_lendvai: He stopped lisping a few years ago
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2021-04-08T16:53:03Z mfiano: You can find him in our gamedev channel, #bufferswap if you need him immediately though.
2021-04-08T16:53:18Z Xach: stopped?
2021-04-08T16:53:19Z attila_lendvai: mfiano, much appreciated, thanks!
2021-04-08T16:54:09Z attila_lendvai is trying to compile c2ffi on nixos
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2021-04-08T17:15:54Z Josh_2: Shinmera: have you used Chirp recently?
2021-04-08T17:16:29Z Shinmera: I used it approximately a day ago to post a drawing.
2021-04-08T17:16:34Z Josh_2: Okay
2021-04-08T17:16:46Z Shinmera: Why does this matter? What is your actual question?
2021-04-08T17:17:17Z Josh_2: I'm getting an error trying to quickload it
2021-04-08T17:17:33Z Josh_2: "don't know how to REQUIRE sb-rotate-byte"
2021-04-08T17:17:46Z Josh_2: but it worked when I attempted to quickload in a fresh image
2021-04-08T17:18:08Z Shinmera: that's an ironclad issue.
2021-04-08T17:19:10Z Josh_2: I guess I will just redumping this image with chirp as a dependency, see if that works
2021-04-08T17:19:48Z Shinmera: whatever the case the issue is not with chirp.
2021-04-08T17:20:12Z Josh_2: Okay np
2021-04-08T17:20:16Z Josh_2: new image worked anyhow
2021-04-08T17:26:05Z jmercouris: I've noticed when loading my own code which depends on other libraries, slime compilation will report their warnings, any way to get rid of those?
2021-04-08T17:26:26Z jmercouris: I'm not interested in stuff like: Unknown location: redefinition: redefining CL-PREVALENCE:GET-ID in DEFGENERIC
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2021-04-08T17:29:38Z shka_: jmercouris: yes, you can rebind the error stream
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2021-04-08T17:33:44Z Josh_2: Shinmera: when using (complete-authentication <pin>) pin is supposed to be the url returned by initiate-authentication?
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2021-04-08T17:34:28Z Shinmera: no, the pin you get from visiting that page.
2021-04-08T17:34:34Z Josh_2: well
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2021-04-08T17:34:36Z Josh_2: that makese sense
2021-04-08T17:35:00Z Shinmera: it says that in the readme.
2021-04-08T17:36:23Z Josh_2: oh yeh :P
2021-04-08T17:37:27Z jmercouris: shka_: ?
2021-04-08T17:37:28Z Nilby: jmercouris: My advice is always wrong, so you definitely shouldn't do this: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2380#2380
2021-04-08T17:37:41Z jmercouris: Nilby: true true, you and me give wrong advice
2021-04-08T17:37:53Z jmercouris: we should be ashamed, really
2021-04-08T17:38:51Z jmercouris: lol, I like the macro name
2021-04-08T17:41:38Z Nilby: mini DTWT posse (*8
2021-04-08T17:45:01Z _death: you could also fix the warnings.. but that advice is the wrongest
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2021-04-08T17:49:57Z Nilby: (ql:system-apropos "") | wc -l ⇒ 4491 , so that might take a while. My systems have no unintentional warnings
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2021-04-08T17:51:36Z Josh_2: Yay I tweeted using Chirp
2021-04-08T17:52:56Z _death: Nilby: hah! (length (ql:system-apropos-list "")) => 4726
2021-04-08T17:53:22Z Xach: (length (ql:provided-systems t))
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2021-04-08T17:54:37Z Nilby: I think I have a lot of stuff I forgot about in my local-projects
2021-04-08T17:55:53Z Josh_2: Shinmera: do you have any example code showing how to upload an image?
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2021-04-08T17:56:23Z shka_: jmercouris: sorry, was afk
2021-04-08T17:56:47Z shka_: jmercouris: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node183.html
2021-04-08T17:57:03Z shka_: notice *error-output*
2021-04-08T17:57:38Z shka_: so you can https://github.com/sirherrbatka/vellum/blob/1315f04382547f938f4569f2b99ba038e93f75b6/run-tests.lisp#L11
2021-04-08T17:57:55Z shka_: however, this will muffle ALL conditions
2021-04-08T17:58:03Z shka_: or rather: warnings
2021-04-08T17:58:10Z shka_: which is perhaps not exactly what you want
2021-04-08T17:58:10Z jmercouris: right, I'm only interested in other libraries
2021-04-08T17:58:13Z jmercouris: it's OK
2021-04-08T17:58:16Z jmercouris: I will just have to live with it for now
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2021-04-08T18:08:40Z Josh_2: yay I did it!
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2021-04-08T18:17:55Z Nilby: I still have a CL twitter client with a TUI back from when you had to send your password in cleartext over http, but then I never looked a twitter again.
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2021-04-08T18:22:18Z Josh_2: Probably for the best
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2021-04-08T18:22:56Z Nilby: I'm simultaneously atounded at how hard it is now, and by Shinmera's productivity.
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2021-04-08T18:28:36Z Shinmera: Aw, thanks
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2021-04-08T18:59:38Z Josh_2: Shinmera: the fun (statuses/update-with-media ..) says it takes either a pathname, usb-8 array or a base64 encoded string (in the docstring), I have just given it a usb-8 array and I get the error "Wanted one of (FUNCTION FILE-STREAM STREAM PATHNAME)."
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2021-04-08T19:02:06Z Shinmera: Oh well.
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2021-04-08T19:04:18Z Josh_2: I will just use a temp file
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2021-04-08T19:20:28Z jmercouris: Josh_2: what is a usb array?
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2021-04-08T19:20:46Z sm2n: unsigned byte
2021-04-08T19:22:08Z jmercouris: I see
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2021-04-08T19:58:59Z Josh_2: I got it working by just writing to a tmp file
2021-04-08T19:59:07Z Josh_2: obviously this is less than ideal but whatever
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2021-04-08T20:11:43Z Josh_2: Shinmera: once I have my pin and I've verified, do I ever have to do it again?
2021-04-08T20:12:02Z Shinmera: Please just read the docs.
2021-04-08T20:14:42Z Josh_2: *sigh*
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2021-04-08T20:15:33Z Nilby: Every minute we distract Shinmera is like an hour of normal Lisper time.
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2021-04-08T20:18:38Z contrapunctus: Uh, what's going on here :\ (ql:quickload :mcclim) => System "mcclim" not found 🤔
2021-04-08T20:20:25Z phoe: contrapunctus: ql:update-all-dists?
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2021-04-08T20:20:41Z contrapunctus: Same goes for, say, alexandria
2021-04-08T20:20:49Z phoe: huh
2021-04-08T20:21:00Z phoe: do you even have the quicklisp dist?
2021-04-08T20:21:11Z contrapunctus: phoe: yup, tried that. Although rather suspiciously, it said "1 dist to check"
2021-04-08T20:21:15Z phoe: (ql-dist:dist "quicklisp")
2021-04-08T20:21:18Z phoe: what does this return?
2021-04-08T20:21:40Z phoe: and asdf:*central-registry* - what is the value of this?
2021-04-08T20:21:43Z contrapunctus: phoe: #<QL-DIST:DIST quicklisp 2021-02-28>
2021-04-08T20:21:49Z Bike: "1 dist to check" is what it usually says.
2021-04-08T20:21:57Z phoe: so the dist is there, okay
2021-04-08T20:22:15Z phoe: can ASDF find quicklisp systems though?
2021-04-08T20:22:37Z contrapunctus: phoe: asdf:*central-registry* => (#P"/home/anon/quicklisp/quicklisp/")
2021-04-08T20:23:12Z Shinmera: Josh_2: oAuth tokens don't expire unless they're manually revoked. You have to actually save the info though.
2021-04-08T20:23:13Z phoe: huh
2021-04-08T20:23:17Z phoe: so (asdf:find-system :alexandria) should find the system
2021-04-08T20:23:49Z mfiano: First check (ql:where-is-system :alexandria) to see if Quicklisp even has it downloaded
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2021-04-08T20:24:09Z contrapunctus: phoe: Component "alexandria" not found
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2021-04-08T20:24:48Z Bike: have you done anything weird lately? deleted systems.txt or something?
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2021-04-08T20:25:08Z contrapunctus: mfiano: nil 🤔 but I have a /home/anon/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/archives/alexandria-20200925-git.tgz
2021-04-08T20:25:37Z contrapunctus: Bike: upgraded from Debian Stable to Testing, if that's weird 🙂
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2021-04-08T20:26:09Z Bike: do you have cl-asdf or anything installed? maybe your global asdf configuration is something odd now
2021-04-08T20:26:10Z mfiano: but do you have a quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/alexandria-20200925-git/
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2021-04-08T20:26:27Z phoe: right, do you have any cl-* packages installed from apt?
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2021-04-08T20:27:20Z contrapunctus: Oh. I did install cl-asdf, because before that, SBCL was not seeing ASDF 🤔
2021-04-08T20:27:31Z phoe: SBCL should have ASDF bundled
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2021-04-08T20:27:46Z contrapunctus: My thoughts exactly 🙂
2021-04-08T20:27:47Z phoe: and quicklisp should load it automatically via #+sbcl (require :asdf)
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2021-04-08T20:28:03Z phoe: and if for some reason it isn't available, quicklisp has its own fallback asdf that it uses for such situations
2021-04-08T20:28:16Z phoe: but this should never happen because SBCL has its ASDF bundled, like, in general
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2021-04-08T20:30:04Z contrapunctus: Removed cl-asdf
2021-04-08T20:30:29Z phoe: remove the fasl cache, restart, let's see if this works better
2021-04-08T20:31:11Z contrapunctus: ASDF is being detected now, but the Quicklisp issue persists
2021-04-08T20:31:29Z phoe: does it still not see alexandria?
2021-04-08T20:32:09Z contrapunctus: phoe: Where's the FASL cache? O.o Did restart, it does not.
2021-04-08T20:32:26Z phoe: contrapunctus: any other cl-foo packages on your system?
2021-04-08T20:32:39Z phoe: contrapunctus: ~/.cache/common-lisp/
2021-04-08T20:32:40Z mfiano: Normally $XDG_CACHE_HOME/common-lisp/
2021-04-08T20:32:57Z contrapunctus: phoe: cl-quiclisp :o
2021-04-08T20:32:59Z phoe: listen to mfiano, he is wise in the ways of the XDG
2021-04-08T20:33:01Z phoe: contrapunctus: oh shit
2021-04-08T20:33:05Z phoe: well, remove that too!
2021-04-08T20:33:09Z contrapunctus: * cl-quicklisp
2021-04-08T20:33:11Z mfiano: Well, (typep *debian-testing* '(and still-older-than-crap unstable) ; => T
2021-04-08T20:33:23Z phoe: mfiano: likely not a testing issue
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2021-04-08T20:35:59Z contrapunctus: phoe: removed cl-quicklisp, deleted the cache, restarted Emacs, still the same Quicklisp issue x-P
2021-04-08T20:36:25Z mfiano: I assume the stacktrace doesn't have any meaningful locals?
2021-04-08T20:36:48Z phoe: well, hmmmm
2021-04-08T20:37:12Z phoe: do you have the alexandria asd file anywhere in ~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/?
2021-04-08T20:37:30Z contrapunctus: mfiano: http://ix.io/2VqF
2021-04-08T20:37:32Z mfiano: Yes I asked that
2021-04-08T20:37:41Z phoe: yes, but I did not see the answer
2021-04-08T20:37:45Z mfiano: No expanded frames
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2021-04-08T20:38:24Z contrapunctus: phoe: there's a /home/anon/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/alexandria-20200925-git/alexandria.asd
2021-04-08T20:39:11Z contrapunctus: Maybe I can nuke ~/quicklisp and reinstall? 🤔
2021-04-08T20:39:14Z phoe: so for whatever reason ASDF does not see this
2021-04-08T20:39:20Z phoe: contrapunctus: I think you could try
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2021-04-08T20:39:33Z phoe: back your local projects up, nuke, reinstall from quicklisp.org
2021-04-08T20:47:27Z contrapunctus: Ah, finally \o/
2021-04-08T20:47:46Z contrapunctus: Thanks everyone ^_^
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2021-04-09T03:02:25Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-04-09T03:07:11Z Josh_2: Mornin' beach
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2021-04-09T03:39:59Z moon-child: (let ((quote 5)) (+ . '6))
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2021-04-09T03:40:44Z beach: Those are amusing.
2021-04-09T03:41:09Z beach: Now try to get Emacs to recognize the role of every element of it.
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2021-04-09T03:41:37Z beach: You should be able to write (let ('5)...)
2021-04-09T03:42:31Z moon-child: ha
2021-04-09T03:42:44Z moon-child: how about this one: (defun f (&key '5) quote)
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2021-04-09T03:44:28Z beach: Using #' is fun too, since FUNCTION can be used as a lexical variable as well.
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2021-04-09T03:47:02Z beach: (let ('5) (let (#'quote) function)) for instance. :)
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2021-04-09T04:19:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: (let ((quote 5)) (+ . '6)) is even valid emacs-lisp
2021-04-09T04:21:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: Both of them are, in fact
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2021-04-09T04:22:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: (let ('5) (let (#'quote) (cons . #'quote)))
2021-04-09T04:22:45Z beach: I guess in the spirit of the first example, I should have written (let ('5) (let (#'quote) (+ . #'6)))
2021-04-09T04:22:55Z beach: Yes, stuff like that.
2021-04-09T04:24:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: (let*('5 #'quote)(+ . #'quote))
2021-04-09T04:25:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: This is how I'm going to write all my code from now on
2021-04-09T04:25:19Z beach: Heh.
2021-04-09T04:25:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: save characters
2021-04-09T04:25:47Z no-defun-allowed: SLIME would print the lambda list of a mapping function I wrote as #'SEQUENCE.
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2021-04-09T04:59:09Z beach: no-defun-allowed: That's a very good example of why I want something better than Emacs for writing Common Lisp code.
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2021-04-09T05:00:39Z moon-child: that doesn't seem like a fundamental limitation of emacs though, only an incidental result of slime's implementation; no?
2021-04-09T05:01:13Z beach: Sure.  When I said "Emacs" I meant "Emacs + SLIME".
2021-04-09T05:01:22Z beach: Sorry about that.
2021-04-09T05:07:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, the result there is from the implementation's printer, right?
2021-04-09T05:08:17Z beach: That could be.
2021-04-09T05:08:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: (princ-to-string '(function foo)) #| => "#'FOO" |#
2021-04-09T05:08:58Z beach: Yes, I see.
2021-04-09T05:09:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's fundamentally ambiguous whether the intention here is to print code or a list, as far as I can see
2021-04-09T05:09:19Z beach: If you use the printer for everything, sure.
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2021-04-09T05:10:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I htink you need something like presentation types
2021-04-09T05:10:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: Or the first argument to MAP
2021-04-09T05:10:19Z beach: One could, for example, show the characters in the source code that defined the item to be printed.
2021-04-09T05:10:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: Kent Pitman calls it something like "intentional types"
2021-04-09T05:10:35Z beach: Then you would get the same representation as the programmer wanted when the code was written.
2021-04-09T05:11:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, that doesn't help when you're formatting the output of MACROEXPAND-1, though
2021-04-09T05:12:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's the same problem as here: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/EQUAL.html
2021-04-09T05:12:13Z beach: True, but that use case I am willing to bet is not as frequent.
2021-04-09T05:12:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm not sure
2021-04-09T05:12:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: I use tools like emacs' macrostep expander quite a bit when I'm trying to figure out what a macro does
2021-04-09T05:13:00Z beach: Perhaps I am generalizing too much, but I almost never look at the result of a macro expansion.
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2021-04-09T05:13:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I suspect this is a workflow difference
2021-04-09T05:13:48Z beach: I see macros the say I see function, i.e., as abstractions.  Only when I write the macro itself would I be interested in how it expands.
2021-04-09T05:14:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: When I decide that a macro was a bad idea, I usually MACROEXPAND-1 and replace the source with the expansion
2021-04-09T05:15:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: then fix it
2021-04-09T05:15:39Z beach: This is one reason why I made a rule that SICL macros should do a lot of syntax checking, so that conditions would be shown in terms of the macro call, rather than in terms of its expansion.
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2021-04-09T05:20:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think if you continue down that route, you end up writing macros that expand to CLOS objects
2021-04-09T05:23:01Z beach: Not sure what you mean by "CLOS object", but if you mean "standard object" then that would be some very useless macros, since those are self-evaluating.
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2021-04-09T05:24:04Z beach: ... unless you implementation uses standard objects for conses and symbols, of course.
2021-04-09T05:27:19Z sm2n: beach, correct me if I'm wrong, but that kind of syntax checking doesn't compose too well
2021-04-09T05:27:45Z beach: sm2n: Can you elaborate on that?
2021-04-09T05:27:48Z sm2n: i.e if I have a macro that expands into a macro, and the second macro has malformed syntax, the thrown error won't be in terms of the code I wrote
2021-04-09T05:28:16Z contrapunctus: moon-child: `(let ((quote 5)) (+ . '6))` dafuq :o explain?
2021-04-09T05:28:39Z sm2n: contrapunctus, '6 is expanded by the reader to (quote 6)
2021-04-09T05:29:13Z sm2n: and (+ . (quote 6) is exactly (+ quote 6), which has quote bound lexically to 5 by the let
2021-04-09T05:29:18Z sm2n: so it evaluates to 11
2021-04-09T05:29:25Z beach: sm2n: Well, if the macro is meant to be used as an abstraction, it is usually  clear what the different arguments stand for, so the syntax of those can then be checked.  Perhaps not fully, but I am guessing a lot better than what is typically done.
2021-04-09T05:29:35Z contrapunctus: sm2n: oh lol. Thanks.
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2021-04-09T05:32:23Z sm2n: beach, I'm not sure how what you are saying applies to my scenario
2021-04-09T05:32:56Z beach: That may be because I probably didn't quite understand it.
2021-04-09T05:34:14Z sm2n: (defmacro bar (a b) ...) (defmacro foo () (bar baz)) (foo)
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2021-04-09T05:34:56Z sm2n: no matter how much syntax checking you have in bar, the error thrown won't be in (foo), because macroexpansion destroys that context
2021-04-09T05:35:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: foo can't give a useful error message in terms of bar's input syntax, right?
2021-04-09T05:35:09Z sm2n: yeah
2021-04-09T05:35:30Z beach: sm2n: You are talking about errors signaled (not "thrown") at run time?
2021-04-09T05:35:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: sorry, opposite, bar can't ... in terms of foo's ...
2021-04-09T05:36:01Z sm2n: macroexpansion time, sorry I'm being loose with the terminology
2021-04-09T05:36:30Z sm2n: (foo) will fail at macroexpansion time because (bar baz) is invalid syntax
2021-04-09T05:36:49Z beach: Ah, yes, I see.  That's the reason for another SICL rule, namely to report errors in terms of source expressions in context.
2021-04-09T05:37:14Z sm2n: how do you accomplish that in this case?
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2021-04-09T05:38:09Z beach: But your scenario is definitely not the one I was thinking of.  In this case, my scenario would be the time when the macro FOO was written.
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2021-04-09T05:39:08Z sm2n: I don't really think it's much of an issue because CL isn't conventionally written with deeply nested macros from what I can tell
2021-04-09T05:39:20Z beach: There would be some highlight of the (BAR BAZ) expression with an indication that the number of arguments is wrong.
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2021-04-09T05:40:05Z beach: sm2n: That's probably true.
2021-04-09T05:40:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: Racket's macroexpander is basically designed to solve this problem
2021-04-09T05:40:17Z sm2n: I brought this up because this was the motivation for the racket people to move to syntax objects as the result of macroexpansion, which is close to what fiddlerwoaroof was implying by macroexpanding into CLOS objects
2021-04-09T05:40:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: yeah
2021-04-09T05:40:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: If you have mid-level macros that expand to standard objects, and high-level macros that expand the standard objects to conses, you can preserve all sorts of metadata
2021-04-09T05:40:55Z sm2n: but that's because their whole thing is lots of deeply nested macros
2021-04-09T05:41:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: Like types to use for static type checking
2021-04-09T05:42:01Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: I think I see what you mean now.  Not that the expansion itself is a standard object, but something like (FOO <standard-object>).  Yes?
2021-04-09T05:42:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah
2021-04-09T05:42:21Z beach: That's an interesting idea.
2021-04-09T05:42:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: Or, (foo (bar)) and then bar expands to (foo #<standard-object>), which foo expands itself
2021-04-09T05:43:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: Which can enable relatively safe code-walking without implementation support
2021-04-09T05:43:06Z beach: Yes, I see.  I need to give this idea some more thought.
2021-04-09T05:43:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think reading your paper on SICL loop was the first time I thought of this idea
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2021-04-09T05:44:19Z beach: Because the clauses are represented as standard objects?
2021-04-09T05:44:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah
2021-04-09T05:44:31Z beach: I can see that, yes.
2021-04-09T05:44:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, (expand-loop #<for-as-clause> #<termination-test>)
2021-04-09T05:44:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: Would be the last layer of expansion
2021-04-09T05:44:51Z beach: Sure, yes.
2021-04-09T05:45:26Z no-defun-allowed: I think I was approaching something like that this morning to simplify code generation for a new project. It would use vectorised loads, stores and comparison operators, but my compiler would generate something like (load #<some policy representation> vector n), which would then be expanded using a generic function that the client would specialize.
2021-04-09T05:45:26Z beach: I never thought about generalizing it to more mundane macros though.  Food for thought.  Thanks!
2021-04-09T05:46:15Z beach: no-defun-allowed: Interesting.
2021-04-09T05:46:39Z beach: Now I have something to contemplate today during breaks and such.
2021-04-09T05:47:10Z no-defun-allowed: It's still very fuzzy though, and I've only written down a summary of the protocol for the rest of the project so far.
2021-04-09T05:49:30Z moon-child: (aside: the above discussion of macros and abstraction makes me think that sigils are superior to namespaces.  Imagine we use & for function values, % for macros and builtins, and $ for variables.  Then the 'quote' symbol used by the ' reader macro cannot possibly collide with a local variable which is also named quote)
2021-04-09T05:52:53Z no-defun-allowed: (The end goal is to make my regular expression compiler more modular, and allow the client to generate specialised scanning code, based on CPU features and/or any specific knowledge of the text to match.)
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2021-04-09T06:00:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: no-defun-allowed: if you need complex regular expressions to benchmark, this code here generates some amazing regular expressions: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/rfc2822/rfc2822/blob/master/regex.lisp#L118
2021-04-09T06:00:51Z no-defun-allowed: Terrifying.
2021-04-09T06:01:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: I tried printing one out once to see why CL-PPCRE was taking so long to match something like "foo" <foo@bar.com>
2021-04-09T06:01:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: The string version of the regex was like five screens long
2021-04-09T06:06:17Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: In Cleavir, we get some of the benefits of using standard objects in macros, in that the compiler manipulates CSTs rather than expressions, and after macro expansion, it reconstructs a CST from the original one and the expression returned by the macro expander.
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2021-04-09T06:08:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah
2021-04-09T06:09:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's occasionally seemed to me that the distinction between a compiler and a macroexpander is sort of arbitrary
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2021-04-09T06:11:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: They're both programs that take a datastructure that represents a program in one way and turn it into a datastructure that represents the same program in a different way.
2021-04-09T06:12:59Z Nilby: If I'm remembering correctly I think agnostic-lizard uses a technique something like that, wrapping interim macro expansion in objects.
2021-04-09T06:13:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: One interest I've had is trying to pull some of the traditional compiler stuff into the macroexpansion phase, because that phase has always seemed easier to think about (to me)
2021-04-09T06:14:43Z beach: Yeah, that's a good idea, provided that errors and warnings can still be meaningful to the programmer.
2021-04-09T06:14:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: Nilby: I believe I remember seeing something like that in the presentation on that tool
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2021-04-09T06:47:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: no-defun-allowed: can you re implementation efficiently merge two matchers?
2021-04-09T06:48:06Z no-defun-allowed: Would you mind defining "merging"?
2021-04-09T06:48:17Z no-defun-allowed: I use the derivative method, so I can do intersections on regular expressions.
2021-04-09T06:49:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: Basically, I've had this sort of problem before: I have N regex-action pairs (think awk-style programs, or HTTP routing) and I want to pick an action doing as little work matching as possible
2021-04-09T06:50:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think the derivative-style matching would work for this, now that I think about it
2021-04-09T06:51:01Z no-defun-allowed: After testing, I can only conclude that submatching here is painfully broken.
2021-04-09T06:52:03Z no-defun-allowed sighs and goes to plan another method for submatching.
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2021-04-09T06:58:09Z contrapunctus: Would you folks recommend using Clostrum for sandboxing Lisp programs? Or is there another way? It seems like a complicated problem.
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2021-04-09T06:58:51Z Shinmera: the only way is to either restrict the programs to the point of being useless, or running another process.
2021-04-09T06:59:07Z Shinmera: or actually another OS, probably.
2021-04-09T07:00:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: In theory, you could spawn another process and use the cgroups APIs to sandbox it
2021-04-09T07:01:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: But what's possible here is entirely dependent on your threat model
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2021-04-09T07:05:03Z beach: contrapunctus: It is not quite as simple as that.  Let me explain...
2021-04-09T07:05:24Z contrapunctus: fiddlerwoaroof: to be specific, I don't want the program to (unless the user permits them) make any network requests or access the filesystem outside of its private storage. (There's also some resource limiting.)
2021-04-09T07:05:38Z beach: contrapunctus: To get the benefits of Clostrum, you need to be able to evaluate expressions "relative to" a Clostrum environment, so you need a specific evaluator.
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2021-04-09T07:06:11Z beach: contrapunctus: We have such an evaluator (obviously), but things are not set up for general use.  Currently, it is used only in SICL bootstrapping.
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2021-04-09T07:07:15Z beach: contrapunctus: The existing evaluator turns a source file into a CST (using Eclector), and then the CST into an AST (using Cleavir) and then it uses the AST evaluator of SICL that does the job.
2021-04-09T07:08:10Z beach: One day, I may turn these tools into something generally usable, but I don't have the time to do that now.  Perhaps someone else would be interested in such a project.
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2021-04-09T07:28:55Z no-defun-allowed: As with most of the engine, I have no idea what I did exactly, but submatching appears to work properly now.
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2021-04-09T07:32:39Z contrapunctus: beach: I see. I feel quite sad when I think of how, on one hand, it's desirable to have programs in e.g. documents, and yet the state of sandboxing and resource limiting leaves much to be desired.
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2021-04-09T07:35:08Z beach: contrapunctus: I understand.  I wish someone would take on the project I suggested.  What you would like to see is something many people seem to want.
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2021-04-09T09:32:44Z ikrabbe: Good morning everyone
2021-04-09T09:32:54Z no-defun-allowed: Good morning ikrabbe!
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2021-04-09T09:33:55Z ikrabbe: I often try to write macros that call functions from their arguments: (defmacro mac (x) `(,x y))
2021-04-09T09:35:10Z ikrabbe: I can guard this call with fboundp of course (defmacro mac (x) `(if (fboundp ',x) (,x y))
2021-04-09T09:36:23Z ikrabbe: ) but this only works for defun'ed objects, not for (labels ((x () )))) (does it work for (lambdas?))
2021-04-09T09:37:22Z ikrabbe: Is their any way to check if ,x is a function defined by labels?
2021-04-09T09:37:40Z lotuseater: or try with APPLY/FUNCALL
2021-04-09T09:37:54Z no-defun-allowed: In the case of the MAC you wrote, the implementation will usually signal a WARNING at compile-time if the function is not bound, so you shouldn't have to worry about it.
2021-04-09T09:38:57Z no-defun-allowed: Though I wonder if there is something you can do with the CLtL2 environment introspection extension which many implementations provide (given that FBOUNDP does not take an environment argument, but you can get an environment with that information from a macro).
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2021-04-09T09:42:05Z ikrabbe: I wonder that there is obviously no way to do it.
2021-04-09T09:42:50Z ikrabbe: though possibly through environment introspection
2021-04-09T09:44:38Z no-defun-allowed: ikrabbe: This implementation of MAC generates (redundant) warnings for unbound function names: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2381
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2021-04-09T09:47:15Z no-defun-allowed: That might only work on SBCL, but I found a trivial-cltl2 system on Quicklisp which should be more portable.
2021-04-09T09:47:19Z edgar-rft: A macro-lambda-list has an optional &environment parameter to look-up lexically bound functtions (flet, labels, etc.) but I have no clue how that works.
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2021-04-09T09:59:04Z ikrabbe: no-defun-allowed: What I actually miss is a branch for cond, when I parse such arguments: (say "Good morning" (user 10))
2021-04-09T09:59:56Z ikrabbe: (defmacro say (&rest x) (mapcar (lambda (o) (typecase o (sequence (if t `(,(car o) ,@(cdr o))) (print o)) (t (print o)))) x))
2021-04-09T10:01:06Z ikrabbe: This is an error of course, as "Good morning" is a sequence also. I need a cond statement if (car o) is callable.
2021-04-09T10:02:33Z no-defun-allowed: Would you not want to test for the LIST type instead of SEQUENCE? And then I suppose (equal `(,(car o) ,@(cdr o)) o)
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2021-04-09T10:08:22Z ikrabbe: no-defun-allowed: list or sequence, the problem of the sequence can easily be overcome by deciding on strings before. My problem is still the missing condition.
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2021-04-09T10:11:52Z ikrabbe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2382#2382
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2021-04-09T10:15:42Z no-defun-allowed: Are you trying to print at macroexpansion time? Local functions will not exist at compile time and cannot be called.
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2021-04-09T10:36:10Z ikrabbe: no, that was just too short, but I begin to understand, that I should define all callable functions for a macro expansion.
2021-04-09T10:37:00Z edgar-rft: I just was going to say "why does that thing to be a macro at all when a function will do the same".
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2021-04-09T10:38:48Z edgar-rft: *need* to be a macro...
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2021-04-09T10:44:27Z ikrabbe: it does not need to be a macro. But then I need to call it as (say '("Good morning" (user 10)))
2021-04-09T10:46:18Z ikrabbe: I just wanted to shorten the example
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2021-04-09T10:55:14Z edgar-rft: It was not meant as a negative critic, I only wanted to know if there is some reason that I can't see from the example code. Writing macros needs to care a lot more about corner cases than writing functions, as you already found out youself :-)
2021-04-09T10:57:47Z no-defun-allowed: Does it? You could write (defun say (&rest r) (mapcar #'print r)) to get (say "Good morning" (user 10)) to print "Good morning" then the result of (user 10)
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2021-04-09T11:07:05Z ikrabbe: no-defun-allowed: actually print is just the test application. Depending on the situation I want (user 10) to be evaluated later. For the terminal it might be (print (user 10)), or in clim it could be (write-string (user 10)) or (present (user 10) 'username)
2021-04-09T11:07:38Z ikrabbe: Here you can see the the present call is affected by the object.
2021-04-09T11:08:24Z ikrabbe: when i do (defun say (&rest r)) the evaluation of (user 10) will likely be a string, but I lost the information that it is a user
2021-04-09T11:25:41Z lotuseater: so you could use a struct or class for users :)
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2021-04-09T11:30:13Z mmontone: Hello. Does anyone know if there's a way of getting the list of packages loaded by a particular ASDF system?
2021-04-09T11:31:28Z ikrabbe: lotuseater: I could do many things, but I want to decide what to do, when I know anything about the output medium. When I write such a say statement in a html context, I might want to link to a user account... and user is just a simple example of what is possible
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2021-04-09T11:36:21Z Xach: mmontone: packages or systems?
2021-04-09T11:36:24Z lotuseater: ok
2021-04-09T11:37:12Z mmontone: @xach I need the packages loaded by a particular ASDF system.
2021-04-09T11:37:55Z Xach: mmontone: i don't believe there is any easy way. a system may cause other systems to load that define more and more packages that aren't directly loaded by that system.
2021-04-09T11:37:59Z mmontone: I know it is probably not possible.
2021-04-09T11:38:20Z Xach: mmontone: but you could look at interceding at certain points and comparing snapshots of (list-all-packages)
2021-04-09T11:40:27Z mmontone: I thought perhaps there was some trick, like parsing ASDF system and files, or perhaps from swank information, but I don't think there's something. And I need it to be fast and lightweight, I don't want to trigger some file system processing or something like that, because I'm trying to implement an on-line documentation tool.
2021-04-09T11:41:06Z Xach: mmontone: like looking through sources for defsystem forms?
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2021-04-09T11:41:29Z mmontone: Yes. But if there's better than that, I'd like to know :)
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2021-04-09T11:41:59Z mmontone: But I don't think so ...
2021-04-09T11:42:01Z Xach: mmontone: i don't think there is any way aside from loading the asdf system and looking at the state of the package system.
2021-04-09T11:42:26Z Xach: you could do that with a CL that has a hook to tell you when a new package is made.
2021-04-09T11:42:42Z Xach: or any number of other hacks
2021-04-09T11:42:53Z mmontone: I'm working with already loaded ASDF systems.
2021-04-09T11:43:47Z mmontone: Yes..probably not possible. I was just asking just in case. Thanks for the input Xach.
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2021-04-09T11:46:44Z jcowan: *macroexpand-hook* is presumably the way to look for defsystems dynamically, but
2021-04-09T11:47:02Z Xach: mmontone: another option is to look at the xref data for packages, and see if the source file is in a particular known system
2021-04-09T11:47:10Z Xach: make-package complicates things
2021-04-09T11:47:25Z mmontone: yes, that would be close. I could approach it like that ...
2021-04-09T11:48:41Z jcowan: s/, but//
2021-04-09T11:49:32Z mmontone: jcowan: I don't understand what you mean about *macroexpand-hook*
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2021-04-09T11:58:02Z mmontone: I'm using Emacs Info mode to display Common Lisp documentation on the fly.
2021-04-09T11:58:07Z mmontone: https://drive.google.com/file/d/17uGr0B1OVc6nX9f73p3Hhqn5jRSx6bY8/view?usp=sharing
2021-04-09T11:58:21Z mmontone: I'm having some fun with this. There are nice possibilities.
2021-04-09T11:59:39Z lotuseater: oh cool
2021-04-09T12:01:06Z mmontone: Occurred to me when I was using slime completion to see what some package provided, and I couldn't see much from there, docstrings, etc. So I thought that was not the right way, there could be better ...
2021-04-09T12:02:06Z lotuseater: i set *MACROEXPAND-HOOK* to NIL, just for the fun and look what it will say
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2021-04-09T13:14:33Z drl: Why is this no longer working: (let ((target-email-address (concatenate 'string "to=" (getf record :e-mail))))
2021-04-09T13:14:34Z drl:                          (uiop:run-program "/home/l/Downloads/thunderbird/thunderbird" (list "-compose" target-email-address)))
2021-04-09T13:15:44Z drl: This works (from the command line): [~]% Downloads/thunderbird/thunderbird "-compose" "to=FortChicag@aol.com"
2021-04-09T13:16:25Z Bike: in what way is it not working and what does target-email-address end up as
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2021-04-09T13:18:27Z drl: Bike, I get "odd number of &KEY arguments" error.
2021-04-09T13:18:42Z Bike: on what function
2021-04-09T13:19:11Z Bike: wlel, it looks like run-program takes keyword arguments
2021-04-09T13:19:37Z Bike: i think you might mean (uiop:run-program (list "/home..." "-compose" target-email-address))?
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2021-04-09T13:20:45Z drl: This was working until I upgraded to a new version of Thunderbird.
2021-04-09T13:21:16Z Bike: i don't know what to tell you. as far as i can tell this is how run-program has worked since 2017
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2021-04-09T13:21:35Z Bike: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/uiop.html#UIOP_002fRUN_002dPROGRAM here is the documentation's description
2021-04-09T13:22:22Z _death: maybe drl "switched" from sb-ext to uiop, thinking they have the same interface
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2021-04-09T13:23:46Z drl: Bike, thanks. I'll check that out.
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2021-04-09T13:29:31Z drl: _death, no, I didn't switch from sb-ext to uiop.
2021-04-09T13:30:28Z phoe: (uiop:run-program "..." (list ...)) isn't a valid call though
2021-04-09T13:30:31Z phoe: weird stuff if it worked
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2021-04-09T13:39:01Z drl: Bike, what you said I might mean works. Thank you very much.
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2021-04-09T13:43:52Z drl: I don't remember making any changes, but maybe I did.
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2021-04-09T14:13:36Z rumbler31_: hey all, trying out ql:bundle-systems.  I am trying to make a reproducible build of a local-project, and I've managed to make a bundle of its dependencies (but I can't seem to include the local-project itself).  If I were to load the bundle.lisp, how do I then load the local-project without loading quicklisp?
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2021-04-09T14:15:29Z jackdaniel: rumbler31_: this function has a keyword argument include-local-projects
2021-04-09T14:16:01Z rumbler31_: I see that now hehe
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2021-04-09T14:16:52Z rumbler31_: its still complaining that it can't find my local project
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2021-04-09T14:32:28Z rumbler31_: seems like a local-projects folder is being created in the bundle but the original local-project filde ris not being moved in.  I'll see if I can debug that
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2021-04-09T14:43:09Z rumbler31_: I swear I did this exact same thing a moment ago but now its working for some reason
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2021-04-09T14:51:46Z rumbler31_: copying all of local projects seems excessive but I suppose the answer to that would be "patches welcome"
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2021-04-09T14:58:51Z Xach: rumbler31_: there isn't an automatic way, but you could copy your local project into the bundle's local-projects directory.
2021-04-09T14:59:09Z Xach: that is loaded automatically but does not involve quicklisp
2021-04-09T14:59:10Z rumbler31_: I just did that and things seem to work.  thanks!
2021-04-09T15:03:07Z Xach: rumbler31_: glad to see a bundle user!
2021-04-09T15:03:41Z rumbler31_: its been a while.  used it at my last company to check in a source tree that my coworkers could rebuild with make.  its been years so I'm standing that up again from whole cloth
2021-04-09T15:03:51Z rumbler31_: but the bundle thing is the hardest work for sure haha
2021-04-09T15:03:55Z rumbler31_: so thanks for that
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2021-04-09T15:36:19Z rumbler31_: does prefixing an as-of-yet-uninterned-sybol with #: prevent it from being interned?
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2021-04-09T15:39:27Z Bike: #:foo is read as a new symbol that is not interned in any package.
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2021-04-09T15:45:19Z jcowan: rumbler31_: So if foo already exists, the new #:foo is distinct from it in the sense of eql.
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2021-04-09T15:55:12Z rumbler31_: hmm ok
2021-04-09T15:56:07Z rumbler31_: I'm kinda dumb right now.  why is it a good practice to use that prefix when specifying, say, quicklisp packages to load. And also, whats the preferred library for doing things like copying files?  UIOP?
2021-04-09T15:56:20Z rumbler31_: and by the way thanks everyone for your help
2021-04-09T15:57:39Z jdz: I use strings with Quicklisp.
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2021-04-09T15:58:08Z semz: Because it won't intern random symbols into your current package.
2021-04-09T15:58:16Z jdz: But it basically boils down to interning arbitrary symbols in whatever package the user currently happens to be.
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2021-04-09T16:06:46Z beach: rumbler31_: More important than the random interning is that you send a clear signal to the person reading your code, that the package of the symbol is of no importance, and the only important thing is the name.
2021-04-09T16:09:04Z remexre: If I want to define the same :around on a whole group of generic functions, what's the right way to do this? is there some mop trick, or am I better off just using macros
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2021-04-09T16:11:36Z beach: mop method-generic-function
2021-04-09T16:11:37Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/method-generic-function.html
2021-04-09T16:11:57Z beach: A method can be present on at most one generic function, so you have to make distinct methods.
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2021-04-09T16:13:14Z remexre: if I adjust my wording to, "define an :around on any generic function (that opts into it, perhaps with a special method combination?)" is that more possible?
2021-04-09T16:14:35Z beach: I mean, you can certainly do all this programmatically.  After all, the DEFMETHOD form expands to some calls to functions.
2021-04-09T16:14:50Z beach: But it becomes messy because of MAKE-METHOD-LAMBDA.
2021-04-09T16:15:16Z beach: So I would probably create a macro.
2021-04-09T16:15:38Z remexre: okay, thanks
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2021-04-09T16:41:31Z cage_: hi! why (cl-ppcre:split "\\n" (format nil "~2%s")): => ("" "" "s") but (cl-ppcre:split "\\n" (format nil "~2%")); => nil ?
2021-04-09T16:42:06Z cage_: is this sort of a bug?
2021-04-09T16:44:56Z jackdaniel: I once had a problem and I thought: I know, I will use regexps! Then I had two problems.
2021-04-09T16:45:22Z rumbler31_: its not clear to me what the argument to asdf:system-weakly-depends-on should be.  I've tried '#:project-name and "project-name"
2021-04-09T16:45:37Z jackdaniel: weak dependencies are deprecated in asdf
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2021-04-09T16:46:05Z rumbler31_: er, then... the other, system-depends-on, that's the one I'm trying to use
2021-04-09T16:46:59Z jackdaniel: try (asdf:system-depends-on  (asdf:find-system "mcclim"))
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2021-04-09T16:48:41Z rumbler31_: jackdaniel: you're the best
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2021-04-09T16:49:34Z jackdaniel: I know :)
2021-04-09T16:51:03Z cage_: jackdaniel, :D
2021-04-09T16:52:01Z rumbler31_: cage_: good question
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2021-04-09T16:53:39Z rumbler31_: cage_: do you need to do that kind of split, or is this example code
2021-04-09T16:55:07Z cage_: i have wrapped this code into a function named 'split-lines'
2021-04-09T16:56:19Z cage_: just syntactic sugar and nothing more
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2021-04-09T17:03:33Z cage_: i have opened an issue report on github about that behaviour
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2021-04-09T17:04:41Z cage_: this is tangential, but i'd love if there was a discourse (web forum) instance about lisp, maybe hosted on common-lisp.net
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2021-04-09T17:21:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: cage_: if you don't actually need regular expressions, there's split-sequence
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2021-04-09T17:22:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, I can't think of why that behavior happens
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2021-04-09T17:25:07Z mfiano: No need for split-sequence if you're splitting strings. It's included in asdf
2021-04-09T17:26:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't like using utility functions in the ASDF package
2021-04-09T17:27:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: Fortunately, there's also: (uiop:split-string)
2021-04-09T17:27:20Z mfiano: That's what I was referring to
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2021-04-09T17:27:45Z cage_: fiddlerwoaroof, mfiano thank you!
2021-04-09T17:30:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's interesting how all these split functions implement the keyword argument that limits the number  of items in the return value differently
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2021-04-09T17:34:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: (cl-ppcre:split ":" "a:b:c" :limit 2) #| ==> ("a" "b:c") |#
2021-04-09T17:34:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: (split-sequence:split-sequence #\: "a:b:c" :count 2) #| ==> ("a" "b") 4 |#
2021-04-09T17:34:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: (uiop:split-string "a:b:c" :max 2 :separator '(#\:)) #| ==> ("a:b" "c") |#
2021-04-09T17:35:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: in my experience, cl-ppcre's behavior is the one I usually want here
2021-04-09T17:35:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: Actually, sorry, I want the behavior the version I wrote has
2021-04-09T17:36:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: (fwoar.string-utils:split #\: "a:b:c" :count 2) #| ==> #("a" "b" "c") |#
2021-04-09T17:36:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: the count counts the number of times the string is split, so the number of resulting elements is count+1
2021-04-09T17:36:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: With the last element being "everything left"
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2021-04-09T17:37:36Z cage_: i agree is interesting
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2021-04-09T18:03:32Z rumbler31_: cage_: there is a discord, and I'm sure there's a slack
2021-04-09T18:03:40Z rumbler31_: and a few subreddits
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2021-04-09T18:05:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: If there's a slack, I've never heard of one
2021-04-09T18:06:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: There's a room on matrix too
2021-04-09T18:06:40Z rumbler31_: anyone experienced that uiop:copy-files actually moves files instead?
2021-04-09T18:07:19Z rumbler31_: or rather doesn't actually copy.. but just deletes?
2021-04-09T18:07:24Z remexre: is the point of boole that it might be calling out to like, a hardware blitter or something?
2021-04-09T18:09:38Z cage_: rumbler31_, my very personal beliefs make me stay away from proprietary/surveillance platform, of course i hav eno problem if other find this platform useful but just they are not for me
2021-04-09T18:09:50Z cage_: thanks by the way! :)
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2021-04-09T18:10:52Z Nilby: remexre: Yes, but it can have other uses. For exmaple CLX uses the bool-* symbols as the drawing function in the graphics context.
2021-04-09T18:15:32Z Nilby: One can do other interesting things with boole, like database bitmap index operations.
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2021-04-09T18:18:24Z Xach: remexre: there is an interesting post on this topic
2021-04-09T18:18:55Z Xach: https://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3250222105960910%40naggum.no.html
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2021-04-09T18:19:11Z Xach: and the previous one as well
2021-04-09T18:19:16Z Xach: (from the "prev" link)
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2021-04-09T18:19:57Z remexre: ok, thanks to both of you!
2021-04-09T18:20:00Z Nilby: Xach: I'm so thankful you preserve those
2021-04-09T18:23:10Z Nilby: That one also gives a good approach to understanding anything in CL.
2021-04-09T18:28:47Z rumbler31_: anyone know why ensure-directories-exist would fail, when all but the last folder in the given path is created?
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2021-04-09T18:32:40Z rumbler31_: even the uiop version fails
2021-04-09T18:33:05Z rumbler31_: yup cuz it calls the same function with mapcar
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2021-04-09T18:35:10Z Nilby: rumbler31_: But what is the error message? It can fail for many many reasons.
2021-04-09T18:38:26Z rumbler31_: so there is no error thrown, which seems to be in disagreement with the spec
2021-04-09T18:38:39Z rumbler31_: it just returns nil for created-p and the directories are never created
2021-04-09T18:39:27Z mfiano: rumbler31_: ensure-directory-pathname is your friend
2021-04-09T18:39:41Z rumbler31_: I sorely wish that ccl could bring back its debugging steping functionality
2021-04-09T18:40:42Z mfiano: All but the last directory being created implies you are supplying a file pathname, so fix it with make-pathname or wrap it in the above
2021-04-09T18:41:10Z rumbler31_: I'm not really sure what ensure-directory-pathname
2021-04-09T18:41:30Z mfiano: Can you show me your call to ensure-directories-exist exactly?
2021-04-09T18:42:41Z rumbler31_: (ensure-directories-exist "/home/user/quicklisp/local-projects/project/project-bundle/local-projects/project/" :verbose t)
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2021-04-09T18:44:24Z mfiano: Not sure, https://gist.github.com/mfiano/bd992be48ac717345cd36bcf07db89bf
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2021-04-09T18:57:20Z rumbler31_: i'm spending an inordinant amount of time getting common lisp to make a new directory and copy 3 files into it.  sorry to gripe
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2021-04-09T19:04:40Z Nilby: One simple way to see what's actually happening, is to trace the systems calls using something like strace on linux or truss on bsd, so you can see what actual file system call might be failing.
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2021-04-09T19:41:09Z rumbler31_: Nilby: So there's a lot of lstatting of the right paths, I don't understand enough to find the syscalls for copying files
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2021-04-09T19:52:46Z Josh_2: just found a program breaking bug that was because I missed the : on my :initarg definition
2021-04-09T19:52:47Z Josh_2: oof
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2021-04-09T20:16:14Z rumbler31_: So uiop:copy-file gets the right args
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2021-04-09T20:36:29Z rumbler31_: it goes all the way down to two with-open-file macros and just copies the a buffer at a time into the output stream, and if
2021-04-09T20:36:34Z rumbler31_: I knew it was something stupid I did
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2021-04-09T20:58:42Z rumbler31_: derp tried to make a bundle that didn't include quicklisp that includes a function to call quicklisp bundle.... dummy <-----
2021-04-09T20:59:19Z rumbler31_: hmm I wonder how to fix that
2021-04-09T21:00:02Z rumbler31_: I want to make a bundle of a project, I guess none of the functions I wrote depend on the original package
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2021-04-09T21:00:22Z rumbler31_: seems kinda hacky to just make another package that assumes things about another, like file paths and project names
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2021-04-09T21:00:35Z rumbler31_: or I should use the term system
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2021-04-09T21:06:05Z Nilby: Since Quicklisp can't really be an asdf or quicklisp dependency, then unless you always install it as part of your own installation, things have to check for it manually before using it.
2021-04-09T21:08:21Z Nilby: My stuff can run with or without quicklisp, so I do a #+quicklisp in some places.
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2021-04-09T21:16:11Z Bike: quicklisp is an asdf system, isn't it?
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2021-04-09T21:23:36Z Nilby: Yes, but I'm pretty sure one might get different results loading it in it's recommended way, vs. just asdf loading it.
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2021-04-09T21:46:56Z monaliza: Heyo! I've recently learned common lisp and i've read a book about it, I've been kind of indecisive for which other vlafor of lisp i should start using next, because of how many flavours there are. I'm mostly really interested in functional programming, and I'm a real fan of haskell-ish syntax, where it's short, makes sense, and works rather well. I've heard about Racket lisp, Arc lisp, and Scheme,
2021-04-09T21:46:59Z monaliza: and I'm getting mixed signals on which one I should try to extensively dive into first
2021-04-09T21:49:16Z moon-child: monaliza: you are unlikely to get very many responses here, because this channel is specifically about common lisp.  That being said: I would avoid arc.  Racket and scheme are both nice enough, and you may also want to look at coalton
2021-04-09T21:50:47Z monaliza: Ahh, I see
2021-04-09T21:51:05Z monaliza: My fault for not reading the first word of the topic, I'm very sorry! And, thank you very much!
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2021-04-09T21:57:40Z kagevf:  use CL so you have the flexibility to take advantage of other styles when FP isn't a good fit
2021-04-09T21:59:00Z kagevf: also, if you want FP only no matter what, maybe consider clojure ... with the caveat that it's on the jvm
2021-04-09T21:59:35Z kagevf: and a syntax that has departed a bit from Lisp and Scheme
2021-04-09T22:00:04Z moon-child: didn't some schemes also adopt the [] syntax?
2021-04-09T22:00:15Z moon-child: I guess clojure also has {} for--hashtable literals, I think?
2021-04-09T22:01:17Z kagevf: I think you're right, moon-child but IDK for sure
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2021-04-09T22:35:15Z no-defun-allowed: m00natic: IIRC {} and [] in Scheme produce equivalent syntax to (), so you could write (let ([x 1]) x) in Scheme or even [let [[x 1]] x]
2021-04-09T22:36:28Z moon-child: no-defun-allowed: wrong moon :)
2021-04-09T22:36:42Z no-defun-allowed: Oh dear.
2021-04-09T22:38:06Z moon-child: seems chicken does exactly as you say, guile doesn'tlike {}, and s7 doesn't like either
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2021-04-09T22:55:30Z sm2n: racket considers [] and () equivalent
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2021-04-09T23:01:14Z edgar-rft: the beatiful thing with Scheme is that there are so many *different* syntax schemes you can choose from
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2021-04-09T23:35:47Z kagevf: in CL could you write a reader macro to do the same thing? to make [] and {} act like ()?
2021-04-09T23:36:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: yeah, they even exist
2021-04-09T23:36:40Z kagevf: ok, that's what I thought ... do they exist as part of the standard, or in a library?
2021-04-09T23:37:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: There's also things like this that port the good bits of Clojure's syntax: https://github.com/joinr/clclojure/blob/master/reader.lisp
2021-04-09T23:37:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: The standard reserves [] and {} for the use of the user
2021-04-09T23:37:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: iirc
2021-04-09T23:38:00Z kagevf: I see
2021-04-09T23:38:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, technically, libraries aren't supposed to use these characters in the standard readtable
2021-04-09T23:38:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: However, libraries are free to provide their own readtables, and named-readtables exists to make that process nicer
2021-04-09T23:39:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: Also, personally, I tend to think "whatever a library can do should be left out of the standard as much as possible"
2021-04-09T23:41:12Z kagevf: makes sense
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2021-04-10T00:53:42Z Bike: {} and [] are reserved in the sense that the implementation can't use them. there's no restrictions on programmer users, library writers or not. named readtables is probably still a good idea tho.
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2021-04-10T01:24:33Z aeth: You'd probably want #[...] and #{...} instead of just [...] and {...} to make it really clear that it's a reader macro
2021-04-10T01:24:51Z aeth: it also gives you some configuration after the #
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2021-04-10T03:04:55Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-04-10T03:05:00Z Josh_2: Mornin beach
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2021-04-10T05:45:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: Bike, I'm confusing two things, it's interesting that #{} and #[] aredescribed this way: "The combinations marked by an asterisk (*) are explicitly reserved to the user"
2021-04-10T05:45:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs 2.4.8
2021-04-10T05:45:40Z specbot: Sharpsign: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dh.htm
2021-04-10T05:46:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: While [] and {} are defined this way: "The characters marked with an asterisk (*) are initially constituents, but they are not used in any standard Common Lisp notations. These characters are explicitly reserved to the programmer."
2021-04-10T05:46:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs 2.1.4
2021-04-10T05:46:52Z specbot: Character Syntax Types: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_ad.htm
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2021-04-10T05:47:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: It seems to me that there's an attempt here to distinguish characters that end-users might define reader macros on from characters that non-end-user programmers might define reader macros on
2021-04-10T05:48:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: Of course, in retrospect, it seems to me that NAMED-READTABLES is the right solution to this sort of problems
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2021-04-10T14:15:23Z Josh_2: Afternoon
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2021-04-10T14:18:30Z beach: Hello Josh_2.
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2021-04-10T14:29:27Z opfez: does anyone have experience with cl-sdl2 on raspberry pi? can't get it to compile because it fails trying to run c2ffi
2021-04-10T14:29:49Z phoe: why does it fail to run c2ffi?
2021-04-10T14:30:16Z opfez: it just says it exited with error code 1
2021-04-10T14:30:41Z opfez: i'll paste the error, give me a sec
2021-04-10T14:30:53Z phoe: check the inferior-lisp buffer and/or the REPL, it should contain either the c2ffi invocations or c2ffi error messages
2021-04-10T14:31:24Z phoe: in the earlier case, you'll have a shell command that you will be able to repeat yourself in a terminal, and you'll get the error messages
2021-04-10T14:31:29Z phoe: s/earlier/former/
2021-04-10T14:32:28Z opfez: https://gist.github.com/opFez/02b5f12aa3611980b4285ae251a65c71
2021-04-10T14:32:50Z opfez: hm yeah i have tried running it and it doesn't provide any useful information
2021-04-10T14:33:20Z phoe: L19-L22 has the full command
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2021-04-10T14:33:53Z phoe: (format nil "~{~A~^ ~}") it and you will have something copypastable into your shell
2021-04-10T14:34:09Z opfez: yep, tried running that. the 8.0.1 part is wrong which i replaced with my actual clang version, still didn't work
2021-04-10T14:34:25Z phoe: what's the error that c2ffi gives?
2021-04-10T14:34:34Z opfez: give me a sec
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2021-04-10T14:37:14Z opfez: https://gist.github.com/opFez/c196f0848e4750834f526dda829bc889
2021-04-10T14:37:15Z opfez: it's a lot
2021-04-10T14:37:21Z opfez: 6000 lines wew
2021-04-10T14:37:57Z opfez: looks like mostly type declarations it can't find (uint8_t etc.)
2021-04-10T14:39:58Z phoe: weird, I can see that the C-INCLUDE form is supposed to include stdint.h which has these C type definitions.
2021-04-10T14:40:01Z phoe: mfiano: around?
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2021-04-10T14:52:40Z shka_: phoe: it is supposed to have in a proper C standard
2021-04-10T14:53:20Z opfez: in addition to this, i manually went into the sdl2 include file and added a #include <stdint.h>, didn't work either
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2021-04-10T15:11:21Z Xach: they broke beirc!
2021-04-10T15:11:23Z Xach: the madmen!
2021-04-10T15:11:48Z Xach: "last modified: 12 years ago"
2021-04-10T15:12:06Z Xach: jackdaniel: have you been changing mcclim so much that beirc breaks? or something?
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2021-04-10T15:22:16Z mfiano: phoe: almost
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2021-04-10T15:31:14Z scymtym: Xach: do you have a failure report for that?
2021-04-10T15:32:34Z phoe: mfiano: maybe you could try debug the cl-sdl2 c2ffi failure from above
2021-04-10T15:33:13Z mfiano: Maybe someone with an rpi could. That would be far easier :)
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2021-04-10T16:27:39Z splittist: How do I programmatically create a NaN (Not a Number) on those implementations that support them? Alternatively, what would be good libraries to look for such an answer?
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2021-04-10T16:27:54Z splittist: s/look/look at/
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2021-04-10T16:35:15Z splittist: For sbcl I have with-float-traps-masked to play with, I guess.
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2021-04-10T16:39:31Z jackdaniel: Xach: yes, let me see what was the previous behavior
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2021-04-10T16:39:49Z jackdaniel: I'm backporting non trivial amounts of code currently
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2021-04-10T16:50:51Z jackdaniel: scymtym: the regression was caused by the fact that normalize-keyboard-physical-gesture tries to enforce a fixed set of keywords
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2021-04-10T16:52:10Z jackdaniel: Xach: thanks for the report, I've reverted the part that beirc didn't like
2021-04-10T16:53:03Z jackdaniel: during upcoming days there may be few more regressions (most likely due to my screw ups)
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2021-04-10T16:53:09Z jackdaniel: sorry about that
2021-04-10T16:53:15Z jackdaniel: s/few/a few/
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2021-04-10T17:26:33Z Bike: splittist: there is https://github.com/Shinmera/float-features
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2021-04-10T17:27:01Z splittist: Bike: yes. I'm looking at nan.lisp (which does not seem to be part of the system)
2021-04-10T17:27:13Z splittist: s/yes/yes, thanks!/
2021-04-10T17:27:17Z Shinmera: ? why would it not be
2021-04-10T17:27:26Z Bike: it's in the ASD? right?
2021-04-10T17:27:29Z Shinmera: it is.
2021-04-10T17:27:32Z Bike: or have i contracted reverse blindness
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2021-04-10T17:32:07Z splittist: ahem. <updates quiclisp dist>
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2021-04-10T17:34:35Z splittist: It works! (Underlines previous note to self: when looking for libraries start with Shinmeraware)
2021-04-10T17:35:04Z Shinmera: float-features seems to be my most-used library somehow.
2021-04-10T17:35:10Z Shinmera: At least from the amount of comments I see about it.
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2021-04-10T17:59:12Z splittist: I confess I am too stupid to know how to use the nan constants in a function (without sbcl complaining about an invalid comparison)
2021-04-10T18:00:34Z Lycurgus hopes theys conditions
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2021-04-10T18:02:54Z splittist: And when I say 'use', I mean merely 'return'.
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2021-04-10T18:18:37Z scymtym: jackdaniel: yes, for some of the commits, cherry-picking will not work without adaptations
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2021-04-10T18:40:35Z jackdaniel: indeed
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2021-04-10T18:52:22Z Krystof: splittist: You probably need to remove :invalid from float-traps
2021-04-10T18:52:44Z Krystof: then sb-kernel:make-single-float <bits> (and sb-kernel:make-double-float <bits> <more bits>)
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2021-04-10T18:55:06Z splittist: Krystof: thanks.
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2021-04-10T20:32:15Z makomo: hello! \o
2021-04-10T20:32:47Z makomo: is there any portable way of checking whether a form represents an actual place?
2021-04-10T20:34:38Z makomo: the closest i got so far was using get-setf-expansion and then checking if the setter form is of the form (funcall (setf <something>) ...) and checking whether (setf <something>) is fbound, because calling (setf <something>) is the fallback if no setf expander exists
2021-04-10T20:35:02Z makomo: the only problem i see with this is the fact that the setter doesn't necessarily have to be of the form (funcall (setf <something>) ...), but it could still perform the same job
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2021-04-10T20:39:42Z Bike: yeah, that's about the best there is, probably. why do you need to know if something is a place?
2021-04-10T20:45:12Z makomo: Bike: i was writing a small dsl that allows me to define functions with various parameter passing strategies (call by value/reference/const/result/value-result/name) and somewhere along the line i needed to know whether to generate a (setf <something>) for an expression, depending whether it's a place or not
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2021-04-10T20:45:48Z makomo: it also allows me to report a nice compile-time if you pass in expressions that aren't places for e.g. the reference passing strategy
2021-04-10T20:45:54Z makomo: compile-time error*
2021-04-10T20:46:12Z makomo: depending on*
2021-04-10T20:46:21Z Bike: you'd get a "(setf whatever) is undefined" warning regardless, right?
2021-04-10T20:48:22Z makomo: hm, why regardless? i would get something like that if i didn't include my check for whether the form is an actual place
2021-04-10T20:48:45Z makomo: it would blow up somewhere inside the generated macro and be really confusing, which is why i wanted to handle it before it ever got expanded
2021-04-10T20:48:57Z phoe: I assume that you disallow out-of-order compilation
2021-04-10T20:49:14Z phoe: (progn (my-macro ...) (defun (setf foo) ...)) is going to blow up in your example
2021-04-10T20:49:36Z phoe: even though it would normally compile and work
2021-04-10T20:50:43Z makomo: ahh, good point i guess. so the first form would be something like (my-macro ... (foo ...) ...)?
2021-04-10T20:51:14Z makomo: and then perhaps my-macro would use setf to set it
2021-04-10T20:51:47Z phoe: you mean like the expander function, during macroexpansion?
2021-04-10T20:52:02Z phoe: or would it expand into some form that includes the setf expansion of FOO?
2021-04-10T20:52:25Z phoe: the latter would work fine, the former looks weird because macroexpanders must be idempotent
2021-04-10T20:53:16Z makomo: during macroexpansion is when my PLACEP would be called, but the setf expansion would be present in the expansion of my-macro somewhere
2021-04-10T20:53:43Z phoe: looks like a case of "if it ain't broken, don't fix it" simply because the place can be defined after your PLACEP is called
2021-04-10T20:54:12Z phoe: somewhere within the same compilation unit, so not even a warning would be generated
2021-04-10T20:54:29Z makomo: right :^(
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2021-04-10T20:54:54Z makomo: does sbcl normally generate a warning in such a case? when you're using a function before it's been defined?
2021-04-10T20:55:00Z makomo: i thought it did
2021-04-10T20:55:10Z phoe: yes, but not within the same compilation unit
2021-04-10T20:55:18Z makomo: hmm, right
2021-04-10T20:55:21Z phoe: I mean, if you explicitly require that all places must be defined before your macro is expanded, then your PLACEP is going to work and be useful
2021-04-10T20:55:32Z makomo: mhm mhm, true
2021-04-10T20:55:44Z makomo: it definitely has some caveats, yeah
2021-04-10T20:56:13Z makomo: speaking of caveats, there's a peculiar thing that i noticed in jensen's device https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jensen%27s_device
2021-04-10T20:56:25Z makomo: which is what i was trying to implement with my parameter passing strategy dsl
2021-04-10T20:56:45Z phoe: also (progn (defun (setf foo) ...) (my-macro ... (foo ...))) - is this going to work without an EVAL-WHEN around the DEFUN?
2021-04-10T20:56:48Z phoe: lemme check
2021-04-10T20:57:22Z makomo: phoe: hmm good point, i wonder
2021-04-10T20:58:00Z makomo: regarding jensen's device: the parameter k that's passed by value is weird, because it's also used within the syntax of the for loop construct to introduce a binding that's not really called k
2021-04-10T20:58:45Z makomo: or rather, the for loop construct is weird, or maybe just the whole call by name strategy in algol
2021-04-10T20:58:58Z makomo: it appears to sort of interact with the syntax of the statements
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2021-04-10T21:00:09Z makomo: i'm aware of the "capture-free substitution (copy) rule" that's used to define call by name, but it's still weird to me that the k gets substituted in that context, because you would think it's part of the for loop's syntax, and not in a place that's to be "evaluated"
2021-04-10T21:00:27Z phoe: seems like you can't get this at compilation time without eval-when
2021-04-10T21:00:47Z makomo: i see :/
2021-04-10T21:00:54Z phoe: like, FBOUNDP on (setf foo) returns NIL even if DEFUN (SETF FOO) occurs earlier in the same PROGN
2021-04-10T21:01:03Z makomo: right. that makes sense i guess
2021-04-10T21:01:06Z phoe: so you're dead anyway unless you EVAL-ALWAYS things
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2021-04-10T22:33:30Z copec: What .xsd viewer do people like using under *nix?
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2021-04-10T22:39:40Z phoe: you mean xml schema files?
2021-04-10T22:39:45Z copec: yeah
2021-04-10T22:40:27Z copec: I've previously only done math things in CL as a hobby, but I'm trying to interface with Plesk panels that I manage for my work
2021-04-10T22:41:53Z phoe: the naïve way would be to use emacs with some sorta xml-mode since a schema is just an xml document
2021-04-10T22:42:23Z phoe: a more involved way would be to try and convert that into s-expressions and/or a nested Lisp object mayhaps
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2021-04-10T22:43:24Z phoe: I wonder if plump can load XSD files... why wouldn't it
2021-04-10T22:44:09Z copec: They have them rendered as .svg's but without a legend or anything, I guess I can look at the actual .xsd files and lookup what the tags mean in the branches
2021-04-10T22:45:22Z copec: I have two initial thoughts on implementation, simple functions that wrap the stream with tags, but it would be neat to figure out a macro to write a defclass hierarchy from the xsd
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2021-04-11T00:56:11Z bmansurov: o/ Can anyone please explain why the following macro doesn't work?
2021-04-11T00:56:14Z bmansurov: (defmacro positivep (x)
2021-04-11T00:56:15Z bmansurov:   (> x 0))
2021-04-11T00:56:15Z bmansurov: (positivep pi)
2021-04-11T00:56:18Z bmansurov:  
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2021-04-11T00:58:14Z bmansurov: Or this:
2021-04-11T00:58:16Z bmansurov: (defmacro positivep (x)
2021-04-11T00:58:16Z bmansurov:   `,(if (> x 0) 'Yes 'No))
2021-04-11T00:59:45Z Alfr: You should use defun for that.
2021-04-11T01:00:43Z no-defun-allowed: Indeed. Though I assume you would want to make sure the returned form tests X, as the macro currently tests if the symbol PI is greater than 0.
2021-04-11T01:00:50Z no-defun-allowed: clhs plusp
2021-04-11T01:00:50Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_minusp.htm
2021-04-11T01:01:49Z Alfr: And as for why it doesn't work, macro expansion doesn't evaluate its arguments. Thus you're passing the symbol PI, and then X is bound to it, thus you're trying to evaluate (> 'PI 0).
2021-04-11T01:02:59Z Alfr: no-defun-allowed, I knew that I missed something, couldn't recall that name.
2021-04-11T01:03:16Z bmansurov: Thanks both. Assuming I want to make that macro work, how do I pass the constant PI to the macro, rather than the symbol?
2021-04-11T01:03:32Z no-defun-allowed: If you really wanted to, you may write (defmacro positivep (x) `(if (,x 0) 'yes 'no))
2021-04-11T01:05:37Z bmansurov: I see. I guess I should share another example where the problem I'm trying to solve is more pronounced. Here it is:
2021-04-11T01:05:38Z bmansurov: (defmacro seq (from to)
2021-04-11T01:05:38Z bmansurov:   `(loop for i from ,from
2021-04-11T01:05:38Z bmansurov:          ,(if (> from to) 'downto 'to) ,to
2021-04-11T01:05:41Z bmansurov:          collect i))
2021-04-11T01:05:51Z White_Flame: the parameters passed into defmacro are source code
2021-04-11T01:06:03Z White_Flame: so if you want to pass something, it has to be absolutely literal
2021-04-11T01:06:09Z bmansurov: (seq 10 3) works in the above example, but (seq 10 pi) doesn't.
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2021-04-11T01:06:31Z White_Flame: however, in most cases, what you really want is to construct code that the compiler will collapse for you, instead of trying to fiddle stuff at this level
2021-04-11T01:07:11Z White_Flame: right, because (> 10 'pi) doesn't compare
2021-04-11T01:07:20Z White_Flame: the literal symbol PI is the 2nd parameter to the macro
2021-04-11T01:07:27Z White_Flame: again, it's passing source code
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2021-04-11T01:07:47Z White_Flame: the forms themselves, long before anything is evaluated
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2021-04-11T01:08:16Z no-defun-allowed: You will have to decide if (> from to) at runtime, perhaps by replicating and generating (if (> from to) (loop ... to ...) (loop ... downto ...)). But this would again be better as a function.
2021-04-11T01:08:25Z White_Flame: this is a runtime decision you have to make, based on the actual runtime value being passed into a call; this isn't something you can statically resolve
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2021-04-11T01:09:03Z bmansurov: OK, thanks. So there's no way to solve the above problem with macros other than creating two loops?
2021-04-11T01:09:51Z White_Flame: if you make 2 loops, you'll have a (if (> from to) (loop ...) (loop ..)), and if FROM & TO are numeric literals, the CL compiler should constant collapse one of them away
2021-04-11T01:10:07Z White_Flame: but, an inline function would be more suitable there than a macro
2021-04-11T01:10:28Z White_Flame: to accomplish the same
2021-04-11T01:10:49Z bmansurov: I went this rabbit hole because I didn't want to write a function with two loops. I appreciate everyone's responses.
2021-04-11T01:10:50Z White_Flame: s/numeric literals/numeric constants/
2021-04-11T01:11:46Z White_Flame: even if you special-cased in a test for pi, what would you think ot generate for (seq x y) ?
2021-04-11T01:11:51Z White_Flame: *to
2021-04-11T01:13:55Z bmansurov: I hadn't thought of variables, but you're right, it doesn't work.
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2021-04-11T01:14:28Z White_Flame: it's the biggest thing to mindwrap when dealing with macros
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2021-04-11T01:19:34Z bmansurov: My biggest gripe with Common Lisp is that at some point I got this macro stuff, but because I didn't practice writing CL, I forgot it. Learning Common Lisp is not like learning to ride a bicycle, unfortunately. I have to relearn this stuff. ;(
2021-04-11T01:19:54Z White_Flame: it's like that for all programming languages
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2021-04-11T01:21:42Z bmansurov: I don't know. For me, unlike JavaScript, for example, Common Lisp was hard to learn (even though I already knew how to program). It's even harder to retain that knowledge.
2021-04-11T01:24:04Z White_Flame: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2384#2384
2021-04-11T01:24:13Z White_Flame: this has the brittleness of doing equality for the exit, though
2021-04-11T01:24:47Z White_Flame: but with all fixnums, this should work, even if start = end
2021-04-11T01:25:02Z White_Flame: s/fixnums/integers/
2021-04-11T01:25:28Z White_Flame: ugh, s/incf/+/ :-P
2021-04-11T01:25:34Z White_Flame: too many edits :)
2021-04-11T01:26:31Z White_Flame: and of course the reason there's upto vs downto is that the exit comparison needs to be <= or >= depending on the direction
2021-04-11T01:27:15Z bmansurov: Thanks, I appreciate your help. I was more interested in getting ~to~ and ~downto~ working. As others have suggested, and as you have showed, there are many ways to skin this cat. I was after that specific way.
2021-04-11T01:27:16Z White_Flame: which is why there's = in this bidirectional version
2021-04-11T01:27:35Z White_Flame: ah, k
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2021-04-11T03:01:53Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-04-11T09:45:16Z theothornhill: Hello! How do you decide between separate defmethods, or use the (:method) syntax on generic functions? Are there any tradeoffs with one or the other?
2021-04-11T09:46:51Z no-defun-allowed: Usually I put a class definition and any methods in the same file, so I would rarely be able to use :method syntax if I wanted.
2021-04-11T09:47:07Z beach: The latter requires the method definition to be in the same file as the DEFGENERIC form, so that's already a limitation.  If you modularity requires them to be in a separate file you have no choice.
2021-04-11T09:47:28Z no-defun-allowed: But I use :method for "default" methods which the programmer should know about immediately sometimes, and whenever I use DEFGENERIC as a lazy person's pattern matcher.
2021-04-11T09:48:03Z beach: Or, you can use :METHOD when you have only a few methods that specialize to built-in classes.
2021-04-11T09:48:30Z beach: For example, if you specialize to NULL and CONS.
2021-04-11T09:48:53Z theothornhill: Thanks! Makes sense.
2021-04-11T09:49:43Z beach: Methods defined with :METHOD are removed when the DEFGENERIC form is re-evaluated.  Not so with separate methods defined using DEFMETHOD.
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2021-04-11T09:49:54Z beach: That is a consideration as well.
2021-04-11T09:51:06Z theothornhill: You mean the "old" version is removed if you change a :METHOD method and re-evaluate?
2021-04-11T09:51:17Z beach: But, yeah, I agree with no-defun-allowed.  Often, the best place for a method specializing to some class C is in the same file as the DEFCLASS form for C, whereas DEFGENERIC forms are usually in a separate file.
2021-04-11T09:51:32Z beach: theothornhill: yes.
2021-04-11T09:52:21Z theothornhill: That seems nice though, if it cleans up the image a little
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2021-04-11T09:52:26Z beach: Or if you change some other aspect of the generic function, like the method combination.
2021-04-11T09:52:52Z beach: ... or the method class.
2021-04-11T09:52:58Z theothornhill: Is there any reason you'd want to keep the "old" version?
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2021-04-11T09:53:42Z beach: I can't think of any right now.
2021-04-11T09:54:10Z theothornhill: Ok. It seems you can mix and match it though, so thats nice
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2021-04-11T09:58:22Z vydd: Hey! I'm trying to do some CL programming after a relatively long time, and for my project I'd like to use https://github.com/plkrueger/CocoaInterface. However, it doesn't seem to play nice with asdf (or at least that's how it looks to me). There are docs on how to setup the environment using the ccl-ide-init.lisp file, in which *module-search-path* is updated to contain CocoaInterface, but when I quickload my project from sly, it
2021-04-11T09:58:22Z vydd:  cannot find the :IU package. Any pointers on how to solve that?
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2021-04-11T10:37:25Z vydd: jmercouris: googling around, your named popped up in a discussion related to migrating CocoaInterface to use a system. https://github.com/nEXT-Browser/CocoaInterface doesn't seem to be available anymore. Did you ever manage to make it work, or did you hit a road block?
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2021-04-11T11:12:42Z rumbler31: once long ago I played with something like that on windows, but the experience wasn't great, mainly because the cocoa interface on windows was likely incomplete
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2021-04-11T11:51:16Z jmercouris: vydd: I was successful
2021-04-11T11:52:11Z jmercouris: vydd: you’ll have to look at this repository : https://github.com/atlas-engineer/nyxt
2021-04-11T11:52:30Z jmercouris: vydd: if you go back in time you’ll see the cocoa interface working
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2021-04-11T11:53:26Z jmercouris: I actually more or less use the objective c bridge independently of the cocoa interface after some point in time
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2021-04-11T13:30:59Z nij: Hello! I can ql:quickload :sb-cltl2 from an sbcl repl. But when I put that in my stumpwm config, it doesn't know where to find.
2021-04-11T13:31:17Z nij: Oddly enough, ql:quickload-ing other packages works fine in my stumpwm config.
2021-04-11T13:32:28Z no-defun-allowed: I think that would call (require :sb-cltl2) and not ASDF, so it is up to how SBCL finds its own modules.
2021-04-11T13:34:37Z nij: What is *that*?
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2021-04-11T13:37:45Z no-defun-allowed: (ql:quickload :sb-cltl2)
2021-04-11T13:38:02Z nij: Hmm. I see. But it does work in my repl..
2021-04-11T13:39:48Z no-defun-allowed: Quicklisp doesn't control how SBCL stores its contrib(?) modules, so it is understandable how any other module would load correctly.
2021-04-11T13:41:11Z MichaelRaskin: nij: presumably, in REPL the system is already loaded for other reasons?
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2021-04-11T13:42:03Z Bike: i think sbcl loads contribs by looking at $SBCL_HOME, which might be different between the repl and stumpwm
2021-04-11T13:45:53Z nij: Where is $SBCL_HOME pointing to by default?
2021-04-11T13:47:51Z rumbler31: I don't think its set unless you set it yourself
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2021-04-11T13:52:18Z Bike: ok, well, i was looking at module-provide-contrib, which says it "[stringifies] and [downcases] NAME, then [attempts] to load the file $SBCL_HOME/name/name". but it seems to do a little more than querying the shell variable
2021-04-11T13:53:54Z nij: Maybe I should just check what has been loaded in my repl?
2021-04-11T13:54:02Z nij: How to check all load paths?
2021-04-11T13:54:04Z Bike: maybe you could look at (sb-int:sbcl-homedir-pathname) in the repl versus stumpwm
2021-04-11T13:54:15Z Bike: if they're different, REQUIRE will be looking in different places
2021-04-11T13:56:49Z nij: Great! I get the clue.
2021-04-11T13:56:51Z nij: Thanks :-)
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2021-04-11T13:58:43Z lotuseater: is it equivalent to say (defun sqr (x) (* x x)) and (compile 'sqr '(lambda (x) (* x x))) ? :)
2021-04-11T13:59:10Z Bike: mostly. the first one might not be compiled.
2021-04-11T13:59:44Z Bike: and the second one will probably lack (implementation-defined) compile time side effects like suppressing undefined function warnings for sqr, and such.
2021-04-11T14:00:19Z lotuseater: hmmm
2021-04-11T14:00:49Z nij: Problem solved ;)
2021-04-11T14:01:36Z lotuseater: ^^
2021-04-11T14:02:32Z nij: (require "drakma") on guix system returns the error -
2021-04-11T14:02:56Z lotuseater: oh. but I'm not on GUIX atm :/
2021-04-11T14:03:04Z nij: Unalbe to load any of the alternatives: ("libssl.so.1.1" "libssl.so.1.0.2m" ...) [Condition of type CFFI:LOAD-FOREIGN-LIBRARY-ERROR]
2021-04-11T14:03:37Z Bike: sbcl uses dlopen to find libraries, and as far as i can tell from people being confused here, guix totally hoses it
2021-04-11T14:03:37Z nij: Yeah GUIX has their own way to put their libraries.
2021-04-11T14:03:42Z Bike: you need to use LD_LIBRARY_PATH or something
2021-04-11T14:04:18Z lotuseater: oh wow, on nixos the lispPackages.drakma doesn't fail
2021-04-11T14:04:30Z nij: nixos has a large community
2021-04-11T14:04:47Z lotuseater: yes much larger
2021-04-11T14:05:00Z nij: but it's not lisp
2021-04-11T14:05:36Z lotuseater: no it isn't and the syntax confuses me
2021-04-11T14:05:55Z lotuseater: just sometimes, even that it's functional
2021-04-11T14:06:18Z nij: Bike: would you mind elaborating it more?
2021-04-11T14:06:19Z lotuseater: but don't worry, loading drakma in SBCL also throws me into "libssl not found" :D
2021-04-11T14:06:36Z nij: Should I set LD_LIBRARY_PATH to something else?
2021-04-11T14:06:45Z nij: lotuseater: you're on nix?
2021-04-11T14:06:48Z Bike: i haven't used these systems myself. i'm just going off of what people have said here in the past.
2021-04-11T14:07:00Z lotuseater: yes nij, I'm using NixOS
2021-04-11T14:07:04Z Bike: maybe i can find something more detailed in the logs.
2021-04-11T14:07:05Z nij: Bike great it's totally fine. At least I have something to start with.
2021-04-11T14:07:20Z nij: No no it's fine. If you don't happen to know, I'll do the work.
2021-04-11T14:08:25Z Bike: ok.
2021-04-11T14:08:26Z lotuseater: i worked around that with other packages by pushing some paths to cffi:*foreign-library-directories* in .sbclrc
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2021-04-11T14:10:25Z nij: great to know!
2021-04-11T14:11:02Z nij: Now that variable is NIL in my repl. I gotta ask the guix community where those .so files are.
2021-04-11T14:11:31Z lotuseater: i found them here using the tool fuzzy find, very practicable
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2021-04-11T14:12:10Z lotuseater: but it won't be bad to know some special folder, it searches recursively ...
2021-04-11T14:13:12Z lotuseater: and eg for loading to work with mcclim it needed the truetype font path
2021-04-11T14:13:30Z nij: im getting fzf for that.. hold on
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2021-04-11T14:14:08Z lotuseater: yes or for whatever else :)
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2021-04-11T14:31:48Z vydd: jmercouris: amazing, thanks!
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2021-04-11T15:14:26Z Josh_2: Good afternoon
2021-04-11T15:17:51Z beach: Hello Josh_2.
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2021-04-11T15:21:19Z alanz: I am liking that instead of writing comments about what I am doing, I can put :documentation and then it shows up in the info requests
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2021-04-11T15:30:42Z beach: alanz: Except that comments and documentation strings have different target audiences.
2021-04-11T15:31:54Z alanz: I am still working that out.  I am using the documentation more on fields, and for defun's
2021-04-11T15:32:20Z beach: What are "fields"?
2021-04-11T15:32:20Z alanz: slots, I guess I should call them
2021-04-11T15:32:23Z beach: Oh.
2021-04-11T15:32:33Z alanz still an immigrant here
2021-04-11T15:33:14Z Nilby: I'm just glad when people write any docstrings.
2021-04-11T15:33:33Z beach: Still, the documentation string and the comment would contain different things.  First of all, a documentation string for a slot doesn't make much sense, since slots are implementation details.  And for functions, the comment would mention why it is implemented the way it is, and the documentation string would mention how it is to be used.
2021-04-11T15:36:20Z alanz: Right now I am using defclass to create a thing that I intend to be a summary of information I know from various sources, which can be used as the basis of a thing to render in CLIM. So I am documenting per slot what it is sumamrising
2021-04-11T15:36:32Z alanz: Is that a completely un-lisp way of doing things?
2021-04-11T15:37:00Z Nilby: I like docstrings on slots.
2021-04-11T15:37:26Z beach: alanz: If I understand it right, that makes sense.
2021-04-11T15:38:09Z alanz: thanks
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2021-04-11T16:26:57Z jackdaniel: beach: but if you inspect the object, comment won't be (usually) accessible, while the docstring could provide some context
2021-04-11T16:27:41Z jackdaniel: just a loose thought, I don't find slot documentation very helpful neither
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2021-04-11T16:30:10Z beach: Yes, I see what you mean.  I need to think about what target audience would be most likely to inspect an object.
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2021-04-11T16:35:26Z Nilby: Unless you want to specialize #'documentation on target audience, I say just write copious reasonable docstrings for everybody.
2021-04-11T16:36:12Z jackdaniel: (defclass foo () ((bar :documentation "provides bar for foo"))) ;-)
2021-04-11T16:37:15Z jackdaniel: or (defclass cat () ((name :documentation "the name of a cat")))
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2021-04-11T16:39:20Z Nilby: I know slots are like the divergent base case, but sometimes there could be quite useful inoformation about a slot.
2021-04-11T16:39:51Z jackdaniel: sure
2021-04-11T16:40:37Z Nilby: e.g (defclass container () (... (damage :documentation "A list of bounding boxes whose area may need to be redraw.")))
2021-04-11T16:41:21Z jackdaniel: you are right, there may be a useful information. the question is whether it should be put in a comment, in a docstring or in a documentation
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2021-04-11T16:41:56Z jackdaniel: (where a documentation is an external document)
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2021-04-11T16:42:27Z Nilby: I find it very useful as 1 keystroke away in the REPL.
2021-04-11T16:42:50Z alanz: I am with Nilby on that
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2021-04-11T16:43:45Z Nilby: I even have it so it can the the slot doc from an accessor name or class name.
2021-04-11T16:43:53Z jackdaniel: I don't have a strong opinion on the topic. if the slot's accessor is exported, then it should be documented in the external document. as of whether a slot itself should be documented in a comment or via documentation - I suppose it heavily depends on the programming style
2021-04-11T16:44:37Z jackdaniel: when someone mainly operates on a living image (i.e by relying heavily on introspection), then the documentation option sounds fine; when they work solely based on a source code for clean builds, then a comment is good
2021-04-11T16:45:37Z jackdaniel: mind, that documentation strings in lisp are not very nice. for instance when you have more information to cover, they just clutter the code
2021-04-11T16:45:44Z jackdaniel: there is no proper wrapping etc
2021-04-11T16:46:03Z jackdaniel: you can't also associate with them any semantic information (it is a string after all)
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2021-04-11T16:47:07Z Nilby: My view is there is no external. The documentation is an object accessible from the repl.
2021-04-11T16:47:48Z jackdaniel burns his books and printed manuals yelling "burn! thou is not accessible from the repl"
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2021-04-11T16:48:42Z jackdaniel: that said, a live documentation writing and reading system in clim is a nice idea :)
2021-04-11T16:49:09Z jackdaniel: if I had a source code of unfinished thing in my repositories directory, I'd call it "London" after a famous writer
2021-04-11T16:49:37Z dieggsy: I've been in scheme world for a long time and am revisiting my old project euler problems in CL - what am I doing wrong in the CL defun here?: https://paste.dieggsy.com/2021-04-11T12:50:05
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2021-04-11T16:50:19Z jackdaniel: first: your indentation is wrong
2021-04-11T16:50:34Z loke[m]: dieggsy: I'm afraid you have to be a bit more precise than just asking "what's wrong".
2021-04-11T16:51:09Z loke[m]: jackdaniel: Looks like the default Emacs Lisp indentation. Look at the if.
2021-04-11T16:51:27Z jackdaniel: elisp indentation is wrong for common lisp, isn't it/
2021-04-11T16:51:37Z dieggsy: This is lisp-mode in Emacs
2021-04-11T16:51:41Z loke[m]: jackdaniel: oh for sure.
2021-04-11T16:51:53Z dieggsy: I'm not explicitly using elisp-mode lol
2021-04-11T16:52:06Z jackdaniel: dieggsy: install slime and use slime-mode for editing common lisp code
2021-04-11T16:52:19Z jackdaniel: it will recognize special operators like LABELS and indent your code correctly
2021-04-11T16:52:49Z jackdaniel: (well, correctly for most cases)
2021-04-11T16:52:49Z dieggsy: jackdaniel: I have slime installed and slime-mode enabled, doesn't seem to make a difference
2021-04-11T16:53:01Z jackdaniel: that's a shame, it works here
2021-04-11T16:53:09Z dieggsy: lol
2021-04-11T16:53:15Z dieggsy: are you sure you're not modifying the indentation in any other way
2021-04-11T16:53:34Z jackdaniel: I'm pretty sure, yes :)
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2021-04-11T16:54:20Z jackdaniel: so, based on responses here: 1) fix the indentation, 2) provide more context of what is wrong
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2021-04-11T16:55:36Z dieggsy: Ok, but indentation is /not/ a factor in the code results lol, thats' part of why i like lisp
2021-04-11T16:55:45Z dieggsy: lisps in general
2021-04-11T16:55:53Z jackdaniel: sure, but it is a factor in the peer code review
2021-04-11T16:56:08Z jackdaniel: i.e people may refuse to be bothered with wrongly indented code
2021-04-11T16:56:26Z Nilby: I like to imagine that a modern Concordia will eventually materialize.
2021-04-11T16:56:32Z dieggsy: Hmm. Well, if slime-mode is supposed to fix my indentation and it simply isn't ... ?
2021-04-11T16:56:36Z dieggsy: i'll look around
2021-04-11T16:57:48Z loke[m]: dieggsy: Does SLIME work for you otherwise?
2021-04-11T16:57:51Z _death: dieggsy: slime sets up a lisp-mode hook (slime-lisp-mode-hook) that sets the lisp-indent-function to common-lisp-indent-function
2021-04-11T16:58:23Z dieggsy: yeah hold up, testing things
2021-04-11T16:58:33Z dieggsy: the fact that it's a hook is helpful, thanks
2021-04-11T16:58:39Z _death: so if you C-h v lisp-indent-function RET you should get that
2021-04-11T17:00:47Z dieggsy: sweet, yeah, i had done some gobbledygook with indentation ages ago. I actually used to use CL a good amount heh, it's just been a long time since i've revisited
2021-04-11T17:01:01Z dieggsy: thanks for the suggestions, indentation seems to be working now
2021-04-11T17:03:17Z dieggsy: And i think I found out what's wrong with my code. Every loop, i should be taking the previous value of j, but i'm also modifying j every loop and i think it's taking that. dunno, will investigate further
2021-04-11T17:04:23Z _death: for x ... for y ... is sequential.. for parallel, use for x ... and for y ...
2021-04-11T17:04:48Z _death: *and y
2021-04-11T17:06:23Z dieggsy: _death: that's probably part of the problem, but  i think i'm still running into what i described above ? if i starts at 1 and j starts at 2, the next time i should be 2 (old j) and j should be 3 (old i + old j)
2021-04-11T17:06:47Z dieggsy: something about the ...then j ... and ...then (+ i j) ... logic isn't working out
2021-04-11T17:07:05Z sm2n: (ql:quickload :mcclim) is failing for me on the package 3bz, with the error "The function SB-VM::MAKE-EA is undefined."
2021-04-11T17:08:03Z jackdaniel: sm2n: it seems to be a problem with sbcl changing its internals (i.e downgrade sbcl). the real problem is a library that depends on the implementation internals
2021-04-11T17:08:12Z jackdaniel: as of why mcclim depends on 3bz - I'd need to check
2021-04-11T17:08:15Z _death: dieggsy: (loop for i = 1 then j #.(read) j = 2 then (+ i j) repeat 10 collect (list i j)) ;; evaluate two times; first enter FOR, then enter AND
2021-04-11T17:09:44Z dieggsy: huh. that seems to go on forever
2021-04-11T17:10:33Z _death: does it? what does (lisp-implementation-version) evaluate to
2021-04-11T17:10:53Z dieggsy: _death: 2.1.1
2021-04-11T17:11:14Z _death: well, assuming it's sbcl, maybe you didn't follow the instructions..
2021-04-11T17:11:25Z _death: it's waiting for input
2021-04-11T17:11:41Z sm2n: oh, there's already an issue
2021-04-11T17:11:42Z sm2n: https://github.com/3b/3bz/issues/11
2021-04-11T17:11:56Z sm2n: guess I need to update my ql dist
2021-04-11T17:12:15Z dieggsy: _death: the problem statement is basically just sum all even fibonacci numbers until some limit FWIW. I can do it using a recursive function but i'm trying to figure it out using loop. not sure why input should be involved.
2021-04-11T17:12:56Z _death: dieggsy: input is involved because I want to show you how FOR and AND differs, so the form I gave asks you what to use
2021-04-11T17:13:28Z _death: dieggsy: it's that "#.(read)" part..
2021-04-11T17:14:02Z dieggsy: _death: oh, no. i got you. I missed the 'ENTER' bit, you're right. my bad again. thanks, this is great and a rather fascinating way to demonstrate the difference heh
2021-04-11T17:14:07Z dieggsy: what does #. do i n this case?
2021-04-11T17:14:31Z _death: #. is read-time evaluation.. so while the form is read, it asks you for the value to use
2021-04-11T17:15:41Z dieggsy: interesting. cool. and does indeed solve my problem in this case actually, i think i was just modifying bits of the code carelessly. thanks!
2021-04-11T17:16:12Z sm2n: jackdaniel, it works now, thanks
2021-04-11T17:18:54Z dieggsy: How uncommon or looked down upon is it to use keywords in loop e.g. (loop :for ... :then )
2021-04-11T17:19:10Z dieggsy: it works, and it kind of separates the keywords with highlighting from the rest of the code. but is this considered bad style?
2021-04-11T17:19:13Z _death: some people like it.. I don't
2021-04-11T17:27:23Z sm2n: I prefer keywords for loop
2021-04-11T17:27:41Z sm2n: don't really think there is consensus for this
2021-04-11T17:27:47Z sm2n: doesn't matter though
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2021-04-11T17:35:30Z mfiano: I like it because a) it highlights it differently which is (imo) easier to read, and b) it doesn't intern symbols into my package, which might make completion of similar symbols more annoying.
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2021-04-11T17:50:54Z Josh_2: same
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2021-04-11T18:01:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't like keywords because all the extra colons are too much syntax for me :)
2021-04-11T18:01:50Z _death: :it :kinda :misses :a :point :of cl:loop
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2021-04-11T18:05:08Z jmercouris: I think either way is OK and will alternate between the two in personal code
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2021-04-11T18:13:41Z _death: this reminds me that I should look into bb1's language frameworks again
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2021-04-11T18:18:20Z jasom: Let me know if this is too off-topic, but woud you call the traditional lisp implementation of incremental compilation a jit or not?  To me, requiring explicit compilation disqualifies something as a JIT, so the traditional implementation is not, but a case could be made for e.g. SBCL where it will sometimes (previously always) compile at EVAL time.
2021-04-11T18:20:33Z jasom: The 3 sides were roughly "All runtime compilation qualifies as JIT" "Compilation must be implicit to qualify as JIT" and "Some form of dynamic recompilation is necessary to qualify as JIT"
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2021-04-11T18:23:42Z _death: I think the JIT buzzword was mainly associated with bytecode that gets compiled to native code
2021-04-11T18:24:08Z _death: well, translated
2021-04-11T18:25:16Z _death: that happened just before the program was run, on the target platform
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2021-04-11T18:26:22Z _death: then there was AOT that had the bytecode translated and the final result delivered, and dotnet had that GAC..
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2021-04-11T18:37:26Z asarch: How do you destroy objects? I mean, I have (defun foo () ...) and then I use (foo ...) and then I no longer need foo. How would I deleted it? (setf foo nil)?
2021-04-11T18:38:40Z lotuseater: i think (fmakunbound 'foo)
2021-04-11T18:39:14Z phadthai: I almost read louseeater :)
2021-04-11T18:40:00Z lotuseater: and giving the same function another symbol name eg ^ for expt does (setf (symbol-function '^) #'expt)
2021-04-11T18:40:07Z lotuseater: okay good :)
2021-04-11T18:41:05Z asarch: Thank you!
2021-04-11T18:41:06Z phadthai: yes removing references to the object should allow it to eventually be freed, the time when it'll actually be done is implementation dependent however, with some implementations allowing to force a GC run or to explicitly free/destroy specific objects
2021-04-11T18:41:11Z asarch: Thank you very much! :-)
2021-04-11T18:41:26Z asarch: BTW, does SBCL have ed?
2021-04-11T18:42:43Z Josh_2: ed is part of the spec
2021-04-11T18:43:23Z lotuseater: ah yes, but don't know how to use
2021-04-11T18:43:46Z asarch: How do you invoke it?
2021-04-11T18:43:52Z asarch: ...in SBCL?
2021-04-11T18:43:56Z Josh_2: Nah doesn't seem to work you are right
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2021-04-11T18:45:54Z _death: (documentation 'ed 'function)
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2021-04-11T18:48:32Z _death: you can add a function that tells swank to tell slime to visit a file, perhaps at some position if source info is available for a function name you might give
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2021-04-11T18:49:44Z semz: swank:ed-in-emacs does that
2021-04-11T18:50:11Z _death: cool.. I forgot about that
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2021-04-11T18:52:46Z _death: the only issue there is that it returns NIL
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2021-04-11T18:59:08Z asarch: How do you personalize Slime?
2021-04-11T18:59:22Z _death: maintain a fork?
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2021-04-11T19:05:10Z Lycurgus: sly has some things built in, eg. choosing the implementation
2021-04-11T19:05:13Z asarch: I mean, its configuration file to add/remove features
2021-04-11T19:06:26Z _death: there's your .emacs, and then there's .swank.lisp for the cl side
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2021-04-11T19:11:55Z alanz: I have sly-edit-definition bound to "g d" via evil-mode. And it works for me, takes me to the source
2021-04-11T19:12:09Z alanz: no custom config
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2021-04-11T19:19:47Z asarch: Thank you guys, thank you very much! :-)
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2021-04-11T19:40:05Z asarch: Here in México a fellows stole a truck (a Hilux pickup) and in the truck there was an industrial device for X rays which uses the Iridium-192 radioactive element. As the meme says: "Kare-ra wa mō shinde iru" X-P
2021-04-11T19:40:37Z Shinmera: Thought I'd also throw it in here that I just released a big update to my game, Kandria, for free: https://reader.tymoon.eu/article/395
2021-04-11T19:40:49Z Shinmera: It's on topic as the game is written entirely in Lisp :)
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2021-04-11T19:53:06Z phoe: Shinmera: I really enjoy reading those, thanks for posting!
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2021-04-11T19:53:34Z Shinmera: Glad to hear!
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2021-04-11T20:19:51Z contrapunctus: Shinmera: fever -> fewer?
2021-04-11T20:20:27Z Shinmera: Fixed, thanks!
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2021-04-11T20:35:33Z Nilby: TIL CEO of Netflix was once a Lisper, worked on a CLIM app
2021-04-11T20:37:03Z lotuseater: uii
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2021-04-11T20:38:01Z lotuseater: and now that is full of so-called microservices
2021-04-11T20:38:11Z Xach: Nilby: was once a coffee-fetching intern at symbolics, even
2021-04-11T20:38:20Z mfiano: Co-CEO
2021-04-11T20:40:47Z lotuseater: any lisp connected internship would be awesome, but no chance at all :(
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2021-04-11T20:55:56Z contrapunctus: lotuseater: looked here? https://github.com/azzamsa/awesome-lisp-companies
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2021-04-11T20:56:41Z lotuseater: yes i know that repo, but nothing is in my reach or I'm not good enough anyway
2021-04-11T20:58:37Z lotuseater: ok, 6 in germany, but maybe they can only use people with phd
2021-04-11T20:59:25Z contrapunctus: lotuseater: I also know that Bevuta GmbH is the home of most of the CHICKEN Scheme devs, but it's not listed there yet
2021-04-11T21:00:21Z lotuseater: ah chicken, one of the outstanding scheme implementations, right?
2021-04-11T21:00:32Z Shinmera: I wish I had the money to hire another coder
2021-04-11T21:00:36Z lotuseater: but maybe better in #lispcafe
2021-04-11T21:01:04Z lotuseater: why that Shinmera?
2021-04-11T21:01:19Z Shinmera: Why what?
2021-04-11T21:01:22Z contrapunctus: lotuseater: one of the 'practical' ones.
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2021-04-11T21:02:09Z lotuseater: what you meant, hiring another coder
2021-04-11T21:02:36Z Shinmera: because there's a lot of work and only me to do it at the moment?
2021-04-11T21:03:00Z lotuseater: okay seems meaningful ^^
2021-04-11T21:03:52Z lotuseater: here are many very intelligent people :)
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2021-04-11T21:11:35Z lotuseater: do you have an example for the kind or topic of work Shinmera?
2021-04-11T21:12:06Z Shinmera: I posted an article about what I do just before
2021-04-11T21:12:18Z lotuseater: oh sry, yes, i opened
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2021-04-11T21:14:30Z Josh_2: I have a dumped lisp image that depends on slynk, however when I try to connect to it using port forwarding sly always fails
2021-04-11T21:15:25Z Josh_2: dw
2021-04-11T21:15:28Z Josh_2: I got it :P
2021-04-11T21:15:39Z Josh_2: I hadn't restarted bash after modifying my .bashrc
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2021-04-11T21:22:57Z Josh_2: Okay well its working but I get this error when I connect https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2385#2385
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2021-04-11T21:29:36Z Josh_2: Well idk
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2021-04-11T21:30:16Z _death: somewhere, maybe a dot file, you have a reference to this cl-asdf thing.. likely you want to get rid of it
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2021-04-11T21:36:44Z alanz slightly surprised that (car nil) gives nil
2021-04-11T21:37:48Z lotuseater: alanz: it's surprising that (last '(1 2 3)) gives '(3) and not 3
2021-04-11T21:38:06Z alanz: agree.
2021-04-11T21:38:21Z Shinmera: It's the last(cons), not last(element) :shrug:
2021-04-11T21:38:29Z alanz: I'm used to haskell, where things blow up if you use them not as expected.
2021-04-11T21:38:31Z lotuseater: yes i see
2021-04-11T21:38:53Z _death: but it is expected, by lispers
2021-04-11T21:38:55Z lotuseater: haha me too alanz
2021-04-11T21:38:59Z Shinmera: alanz: ? It's specificed that car/cdr of nil is nil.
2021-04-11T21:39:21Z alanz: it was only unexpected to me, I had the wrong expectation
2021-04-11T21:40:32Z lotuseater: so we don't have to struggle with monadic stuff
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2021-04-11T21:42:14Z alanz: you get used to the monadic stuff after a while. Same with rust and its borrow checker.
2021-04-11T21:42:24Z lotuseater: yes
2021-04-11T21:42:50Z alanz: I think every language has things that eventually you internalise and then don't even notice what you are doing. Landmines that you dodge without thinking.
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2021-04-11T21:43:24Z lotuseater: like (format nil "~a" nil) => nil and not ""
2021-04-11T21:43:34Z alanz: yes.
2021-04-11T21:43:46Z lotuseater: or EVENP, ODDP just work on integers, otherwise throws type error
2021-04-11T21:43:59Z alanz: I have to say, I am pretty impressed with the feedback SBCL gives about code, when there are problems
2021-04-11T21:44:18Z _death: eh? (format nil "~A" nil) => "NIL"
2021-04-11T21:44:24Z lotuseater: but the most stuff is very consistent, eg support for 0-dimensional arrays
2021-04-11T21:44:46Z lotuseater: oh damn _death, yes you're right :D
2021-04-11T21:45:59Z _death: these things usually have reasons.. which sometimes (oftentimes) are good
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2021-04-11T21:46:54Z _death: for example, getting the last cons is useful if you want to modify it
2021-04-11T21:47:27Z _death: you can also give an additional argument, to get the nth cons from the end
2021-04-11T21:47:29Z lotuseater: yes most stuff has it's reasons in the spec :)
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2021-04-11T21:48:22Z lotuseater: haha i changed PRINT-OBJECT with eql for NIL to "", funny
2021-04-11T21:48:43Z _death: well, unfortunately the spec doesn't have a Rationale section with all the history :).. but we do have cl-su-ai and c.l.l for example
2021-04-11T21:48:59Z lotuseater: oh what's that?
2021-04-11T21:49:36Z _death: what's what
2021-04-11T21:49:54Z lotuseater: cl-su-ai and c.l.l
2021-04-11T21:51:09Z ebrasca: Why?
2021-04-11T21:51:15Z _death: cl-su-ai is a mail archive containing some discussions from the CL standardization effort https://cl-su-ai.cddddr.org/
2021-04-11T21:51:29Z moon-child: c.l.l is the comp.lang.lisp newsgroup
2021-04-11T21:51:43Z moon-child: (not deceased, but probably on its last elbows)
2021-04-11T21:51:46Z lotuseater: ah
2021-04-11T21:52:04Z lotuseater: yes i found the cddddr site :)
2021-04-11T21:53:37Z _death: I put it and some other archives here https://github.com/death/gnus-friendly-archives
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2021-04-11T22:23:57Z ebrasca: wow
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2021-04-12T00:14:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: moon-child: usenet is in this weird sort of undead state these days
2021-04-12T00:17:06Z moon-child: fiddlerwoaroof: some groups are alive and well . . . more's the pity
2021-04-12T00:17:10Z moon-child: c.l.c is a cesspool
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2021-04-12T00:48:44Z loke[m]: moon-child is that wj guy still posting there?
2021-04-12T00:50:04Z moon-child: no idea, I stopped frequenting it
2021-04-12T00:50:18Z moon-child: (still in my newsrc, though--should probably get rid of that)
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2021-04-12T00:56:43Z loke[m]: moon-child I was almost impressed with by his consistency. How can you spend years doing that stuff over and over again.
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2021-04-12T00:57:14Z no-defun-allowed: wj guy?
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2021-04-12T01:01:45Z Bike: the few times i've looked at c.l.c this guy wj made a ton of posts about how CL sucked.
2021-04-12T01:01:55Z Bike: like a ton of posts. some kind of bot i guess.
2021-04-12T01:02:45Z moon-child: the main ~spammers I remember are rick c hodgin (religious propaganda) and prof. fir (all-around fun times)
2021-04-12T01:02:53Z moon-child: oh, also suresh
2021-04-12T01:03:26Z no-defun-allowed: raisins CL sucks 1. Only common why would you not use items with higher rarity 2. No abelian groups for pure IO 3. Too fast, can't overcharge people for rewriting in C
2021-04-12T01:03:41Z semz: wait a second, what is c.l.c? i assumed comp.lang.c, but anti-CL posts sound out of place
2021-04-12T01:03:42Z Bike: is the IO monad abelian
2021-04-12T01:03:51Z Bike: semz: again, this was spammy
2021-04-12T01:04:05Z semz: oh i see. wild stuff
2021-04-12T01:04:07Z Bike: oh, sorry, iw as thinking of c.l.l
2021-04-12T01:04:11Z Bike: i don't know what c.l.c is
2021-04-12T01:05:06Z no-defun-allowed: Bike: no, else IO would be commutative and that wouldn't help with "sequencing" IO
2021-04-12T01:05:17Z Bike: makes sense
2021-04-12T01:05:35Z no-defun-allowed: I think that's how it is, I dunno and only came up with Abelian IO for the joke.
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2021-04-12T01:18:25Z dieggsy: is there a concise way to say "1e6 as an integer" short of flooring it
2021-04-12T01:18:55Z Bike: Do you mean you want a shorter integer literal syntax?
2021-04-12T01:19:04Z Bike: or do you have some float at runtime and you want an integer.
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2021-04-12T01:21:27Z dieggsy: Bike: The former, I think. I want to be able to type "the integer 1e6" without 1000000 or (floor 1e6)
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2021-04-12T01:22:30Z Bike: i see. there's no built in way. if you wanted you could probably write a reader macro fairly simply.
2021-04-12T01:22:43Z Bike: i wanna say i've seen "1r6" as an extension before, but i don't remember
2021-04-12T01:23:10Z dieggsy: fair. thanks!
2021-04-12T01:23:49Z edgar-rft: what about (expt 10 6)
2021-04-12T01:25:19Z Bike: that's more characters than 1000000
2021-04-12T01:25:33Z Bike: though i'm going to imagine dieggsy is more concerned about 1e27 or suchlike
2021-04-12T01:25:58Z edgar-rft: "the integer 1e6" is also more characters than 1000000
2021-04-12T01:25:59Z dieggsy: edgar-rft: lol, certainly an option actually. Bike right.
2021-04-12T01:26:21Z dieggsy: edgar-rft: that wasn't literal though, just what i *meant*
2021-04-12T01:26:31Z dieggsy: scheme (don't kill me) has #e1e6
2021-04-12T01:27:12Z dieggsy: suppose it could just be implemented with a reader macro as mentioned
2021-04-12T01:27:18Z edgar-rft: expt is what I am using for huge bignums, you're of course free to use something different
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2021-04-12T01:30:50Z Bike: oh, it's actually really easy because of how dispatching macro characters work
2021-04-12T01:31:13Z Bike: (defun sharp-e (stream sub num) (declare (ignore sub)) (* num (expt 10 (read stream t nil t))))
2021-04-12T01:31:21Z Bike: (possibly with more error checking)
2021-04-12T01:32:03Z no-defun-allowed: So that would read #1e10?
2021-04-12T01:32:10Z Bike: yeah
2021-04-12T01:32:48Z edgar-rft: using 1e<n> is rather seldom, you usually need numbers like 127364538463e16278364536372 and I doubt that this can be shortened by a read macro
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2021-04-12T07:16:18Z splittist: If we're suggesting alternative numeric literal syntax, python allowing #\_ as a separator seems nice. 1_000_000 or #b1001_1001_1111 or #xDE_AD_BE_EF (:
2021-04-12T07:17:50Z moon-child: splittist: agreed
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2021-04-12T07:42:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: splittist: although, I sort of like the model used by the "numderline" font patching tool: make display conventions for numeric literals a font feature rather than actual source characters
2021-04-12T07:43:07Z moon-child: hmmm.  I'm not really a fan of things like that
2021-04-12T07:43:35Z moon-child: (nor ligatures.)  From the rendering side, I want my texteditor to be a relatively dumb grid of characters.  Plus some colour, maybe
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2021-04-12T07:49:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: I agree about ligatures
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2021-04-12T07:49:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think formatting numbers readably is more like syntax highlighting than ligatures, though
2021-04-12T07:50:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: The issue with a python-style 1_000_000 is, now I have all sorts of issues when I want to copy the numbers from my source code somewhere else
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2021-04-12T07:51:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: And similar issues if *PRINT-PRETTY* decides to include the grouping character
2021-04-12T07:51:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: I sort of wonder if the issue could be solved with a font-lock rule for which characters to color slightly differently
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2021-04-12T07:55:42Z moon-child: colouration could work, but I think I prefer inline _.  Copy-pasting--is that really such a concern?  I almost never do that.  In particular, I don't think it's particularly reasonable to expect forms from one language to be compatible with forms from another, as a general rule
2021-04-12T07:57:11Z White_Flame slowly slides the term "presentation" into the conversation
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2021-04-12T08:03:52Z Nilby: There's this 10̦000̦00 or this 10̲000̲00 but I think they're more trouble than they're worth.
2021-04-12T08:03:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: White_Flame: exactly
2021-04-12T08:04:36Z White_Flame: dead text chars are an anti-pattern
2021-04-12T08:05:24Z moon-child: White_Flame: do you avoid whitespace, then?
2021-04-12T08:05:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: moon-child: copy-pasting isn't a huge concern, but I find it irritating when I have to reformat basic data types between langauges
2021-04-12T08:05:55Z White_Flame: solving these issues necessarily means replacing ecosystems
2021-04-12T08:06:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: Print syntax is more important here than read syntax, though
2021-04-12T08:06:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: Anyways: Excel and other spreadsheet tools have all sorts of nice number formatting options
2021-04-12T08:06:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: It'd be great for me to be able to set such display options on a variable-by-variable basis :)
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2021-04-12T08:08:02Z White_Flame: hmm, but when copying a cell (at least in libreoffice), you get the presentation form, not the raw form
2021-04-12T08:08:08Z White_Flame: when pasting into a text buffer
2021-04-12T08:09:26Z Nilby: fiddlerwoaroof: (setf (get 'x 'number-style) 'fancy)
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2021-04-12T08:09:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: White_Flame: that's sort of a bug, though
2021-04-12T08:09:40Z Nilby: Now you just need a thing to show it.
2021-04-12T08:10:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: And, I don't think Excel has that limitation: at least, you can choose whether to paste the display formatting or the values at paste time
2021-04-12T08:10:42Z Nilby: There have been Lisp systems where symbols have special presentation.
2021-04-12T08:10:45Z White_Flame: I mean pasting into a text editor
2021-04-12T08:11:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: Well, that's because of limitations of the normal copy/paste protocols
2021-04-12T08:11:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: And/or the application's use of them
2021-04-12T08:12:13Z White_Flame: yep.  The general problem IMO is the Unix/C model of naked char buffers for everything
2021-04-12T08:12:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: macOS, at least, has typed clipboards
2021-04-12T08:12:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: And you can request data of a certain type from the clipboard
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2021-04-12T08:13:20Z moon-child: sounds like COM
2021-04-12T08:13:21Z White_Flame: pretty sure such things are in windows & linux, too
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2021-04-12T08:13:38Z White_Flame: but in the latter, the stars have to align through the bazaar
2021-04-12T08:13:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: In fact, macOS's biggest technical advantage is that it's _not_ based on the Unix/C model of text everywhere for the user-facing parts
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2021-04-12T08:14:15Z White_Flame: yep
2021-04-12T08:14:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's based on the Objective-C runtime, which is basically a limited Smalltalk
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2021-04-12T08:20:13Z splittist: The most important syntax is the one I'm presenting to myself in my source code: did I just type one hundred million or a billion? Let me move my cursor over the number as I count... 100_000_000 makes it obvious to my most important reader - me (:
2021-04-12T08:22:04Z jdz: splittist: #.(truncate 1.0e8)
2021-04-12T08:22:42Z jdz: But yes, I sometimes struggle with numbers like these, too.
2021-04-12T08:23:33Z jdz: Usually by moving cursor to position 3 from the right, and then selecting 3 next digits left.
2021-04-12T08:23:35Z White_Flame: ##Eleventy_Billion
2021-04-12T08:23:51Z jdz: And hoping that counting the rest will not be a problem.
2021-04-12T08:24:31Z White_Flame: (ah, ## is already taken)
2021-04-12T08:25:56Z jdz: #r should be extended to accept #\" as the base, so then: #r"one hundred million billion".
2021-04-12T08:26:08Z moon-child: haha
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2021-04-12T08:26:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: this is sort of interesting, in Emacs: (gui-get-selection 'CLIPBOARD (intern "text/html"))
2021-04-12T08:26:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: e.g. copy from LibreOffice Calc and then run that
2021-04-12T08:26:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: (gui-backend-get-selection 'CLIPBOARD 'TARGETS) shows all the possible target formats
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2021-04-12T08:29:57Z Nilby: The natural way of representing numbers is of course recursive, so any linearization into bits is somewhat fake.
2021-04-12T08:30:29Z Nilby: and hard to type
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2021-04-12T08:31:02Z moon-child: 'hard to type' I would rather type 7 than (S (S (S (S (S (S (S Z)))))))
2021-04-12T08:31:45Z Nilby: You
2021-04-12T08:32:12Z Nilby: You'd only have to type the last S, since you'd have the others hanging around;
2021-04-12T08:33:26Z Nilby: Exceopt in the very early or non-viable universes.
2021-04-12T08:35:28Z Nilby: Also 1e6 is quite composite.
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2021-04-12T08:57:28Z jdz: The problem with "scientific notation" is that it only works for many trailing zeroes.
2021-04-12T08:57:53Z moon-child: right
2021-04-12T08:57:54Z no-defun-allowed: 1e#.1e100
2021-04-12T08:57:56Z moon-child: 1.273849e6 isn't better than 1273849
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2021-04-12T09:01:20Z Nilby: And worse, they aren't really zeros in binary.
2021-04-12T09:02:47Z moon-child: well, they can be
2021-04-12T09:02:59Z moon-child: 100 is 1100100b--both of them have 2 trailing zeroes ;)
2021-04-12T09:04:31Z contrapunctus: Shinmera: it seems you changed the licenses for some of your projects from Artistic to zlib, but the accompanying web pages still name the former as the license. I figured you might want to update them, to avoid confusion.
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2021-04-12T09:06:29Z Shinmera: I might want to, but it's very low on my priority list.
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2021-04-12T09:13:50Z contrapunctus: Shinmera: is your website not in a repo I can make a PR for? 🤔 I couldn't find a repo. Or, wait, are those generated docs?
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2021-04-12T09:15:01Z Shinmera: each repo has a docs/ folder. That's where the sources are for those. And yes they're generated, but once per repo, so it's a pain in the ass.
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2021-04-12T10:51:28Z Demosthenex: ok, i'm trying to work with a script i wrote that import's a library using it's pathname, but that seems to fail in sly/slime
2021-04-12T10:51:55Z Demosthenex: is there a way to run different code if slime is loading the script?
2021-04-12T10:51:59Z Demosthenex: maybe i can prompt for paths
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2021-04-12T10:56:32Z Nilby: You could use #+(or swank slynk) . I'm not sure what you mean by import though. It's probably best to make it work without special code.
2021-04-12T10:59:35Z Demosthenex: Nilby: i'm trying to make it so that i can eval my buffer to load it into repl, and there are assumptions made about the path... so i'd like to wrap that in some code wwhich detects that i'm running in swank/sly/slime so i can address the mising data
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2021-04-12T11:07:40Z Nilby: Ah. There's lots of ways to address the issue. #+ conditionals are the simplest, but maybe most brittle. You could also use logical-pathname-translations, to make a path prefix, then say (load "my-stuff:foo.lisp") But, loading with asdf or quicklisp is probably the most usual.
2021-04-12T11:18:02Z Demosthenex: maybe i need to wrap my final code in a main function, and then only call that when i use --script
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2021-04-12T11:40:41Z Demosthenex: is there a way i can say "call (main) only if called from sbcl --script, ie: not sly?"
2021-04-12T11:42:38Z Nilby: If you're using reader conditionals, you can use the negative: #-(or swank slynk)
2021-04-12T11:45:25Z Demosthenex: Nilby: cool, i'll try that
2021-04-12T11:45:26Z Nilby: But perhaps it's best to put whatever you want to do only interactively in separate function.
2021-04-12T11:46:27Z Nilby: Or what you want to do only in a script in separate file.
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2021-04-12T13:46:18Z rumbler31: Xach: I don't know if this would be useful to have in quicklisp, but I wrote a function to copy a single local project into the bundle directory.  Problems that I see with adopting it are that I don't yet account for dependencies that might need to be pulled in from other local projects, and discovery of the bundled location on the user's behalf (which might be impossible)
2021-04-12T13:46:35Z rumbler31: the goal is to reduce the amount of code that makes it into the bundle, I don't want all of my local projects to get pulled in
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2021-04-12T13:47:14Z rumbler31: are you aware of any other problems with this approach that I might have missed?
2021-04-12T13:47:39Z Xach: rumbler31: how does it copy things?
2021-04-12T13:50:03Z rumbler31: you mean what library does it use?
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2021-04-12T13:51:37Z rumbler31: I'm not in front of the code but I think I use asdf to find the named package locations, make pathnames for each of the .lisp and .asd files found in that directory to the location of the bundle/local-projects/myproject folder and does a uiop file copy
2021-04-12T13:51:54Z Xach: quicklisp does not depend on UIOP
2021-04-12T13:52:09Z rumbler31: I think I can just crib the code and write it myself
2021-04-12T13:52:20Z rumbler31: unless there are licensing issues
2021-04-12T13:52:55Z rumbler31: but isn't uiop brought in by asdf?
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2021-04-12T13:54:08Z Xach: Sure. But I don't put references to UIOP into quicklisp client code.
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2021-04-12T13:54:47Z Xach: rumbler31: I'd look at what ql-minitar does, I think, except copying from filesystem files rather than a tar stream.
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2021-04-12T13:56:26Z brandflake11: Hello all. Have you worked with extremely large datasets in lisp before? I'm trying to load in a huge list to use with lisp (800000+ lines), but it seems like sbcl freezes everytime I do that. Do I just have to wait for it to load in, even though sbcl says it's not taking any cpu? What has been your experience with large datasets in lisp?
2021-04-12T13:56:56Z Xach: brandflake11: sometimes the freeze is when it tries to print the result, not loading or working with it. one option is to set *print-length* to something like 100.
2021-04-12T13:57:21Z Xach: brandflake11: using too much memory results in a different symptom (landing in ldb or crashing outright)
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2021-04-12T13:58:44Z brandflake11: Xach: I see. Let me test limiting *print-length* and see what happens
2021-04-12T13:58:48Z Nilby: I've used much bigger datasets and the important thing is set --dynamic-space-size high enough, and don't print it.
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2021-04-12T13:59:24Z brandflake11: Nilby: I don't know anything about dynamic-space-size. Do you set this when loading sbcl, or can you set it with a global variable?
2021-04-12T13:59:35Z Xach: brandflake11: it's a command-line argument
2021-04-12T13:59:41Z Xach: brandflake11: cannot be adjusted at runtime
2021-04-12T13:59:57Z brandflake11: Xach: Okay, I'll look at the man page to see more about it
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2021-04-12T14:00:43Z brandflake11: If *print-length* is nil, does that mean there is no limit?
2021-04-12T14:00:49Z phoe: yes
2021-04-12T14:00:53Z brandflake11: Thanks!
2021-04-12T14:01:26Z phoe: CLHS says, "If [*PRINT-LENGTH*] is false, there is no limit to the number of components printed."
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2021-04-12T14:01:53Z brandflake11: Oh, I didn't know the hyperspec had info about global variables that are important.
2021-04-12T14:02:24Z phoe: it's the full rendition of the standard, it must have all the variables
2021-04-12T14:02:26Z phoe: clhs *print-level*
2021-04-12T14:02:26Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_pr_lev.htm
2021-04-12T14:03:08Z brandflake11: Yep, that makes more sense. Thanks a lot all for the helpful advice!
2021-04-12T14:05:08Z Nilby: As you may know, a list isn't the best data structure for huge data sets.
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2021-04-12T14:05:38Z phoe: Nilby: huh?
2021-04-12T14:06:04Z beach: Nilby: That totally depends on the operations that are expected.
2021-04-12T14:06:46Z Nilby: Yes. Like anything except traversing it in order.
2021-04-12T14:06:59Z phoe: Nilby: I mean, what's the context?
2021-04-12T14:07:04Z Nilby: Also takes too much space.
2021-04-12T14:07:18Z brandflake11: Nilby: I took a .csv file and converted it into one big list of lists to then parse out later as OSC commands. At this point in my lisp journey, it seemed like the simplest option.
2021-04-12T14:08:03Z brandflake11: But I'm still having trouble getting the list to even load. I need to try to dynamic-space-size option
2021-04-12T14:08:21Z phoe: oh, I see the context now
2021-04-12T14:08:46Z phoe: brandflake11: how does it hang? if you're using slime/sly, check the inferior-lisp buffer
2021-04-12T14:08:59Z phoe: maybe you need more heap to be able to load this much at once, if you get an error about heap exhausted in there
2021-04-12T14:09:21Z brandflake11: I use a (with-open-file) function to load the file with just the list in it
2021-04-12T14:09:35Z beach: brandflake11: 800000 lines doesn't sound like much, depending on what a "line" is of course.
2021-04-12T14:09:36Z brandflake11: I'll check that buffer
2021-04-12T14:09:38Z phoe: yes, but how do you run Lisp? with slime/sly from emacs? just from the terminal?
2021-04-12T14:09:47Z brandflake11: With slime+emacs
2021-04-12T14:10:02Z phoe: in the former case, you can get the REPL to "hang" if the inferior lisp crashes hard
2021-04-12T14:10:06Z phoe: e.g. due to OOM
2021-04-12T14:10:48Z brandflake11: phoe: You are so right, I get this "Heap exhausted during garbage collection: 48 bytes available, 64 requested. "
2021-04-12T14:11:26Z jdz: Also it might be a good idea to process lines as they are parsed from the file (say by providing a callback function to run on each parsed line) instead of doing it in two stages.
2021-04-12T14:11:58Z brandflake11: I don't know how to mitigate the heap exhausted error!
2021-04-12T14:11:59Z jdz: Another option is to use two threads with a size-limited "line buffer".
2021-04-12T14:13:11Z brandflake11: jdz: Well, the list is a dataset with times of events and the events themselves. So, I want to be able to replay these events in order
2021-04-12T14:13:44Z jdz: And in the file they may be out-of-order?
2021-04-12T14:13:54Z brandflake11: jdz: No they are all in order
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2021-04-12T14:15:25Z phoe: brandflake11: run SBCL with a larger heap, if you have enough RAM
2021-04-12T14:16:11Z brandflake11: phoe: What command line option can you use to do that?
2021-04-12T14:16:25Z phoe: $ sbcl --dynamic-space-size $((8 * 1024))
2021-04-12T14:16:31Z phoe: that'll give you a 8 GB heap
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2021-04-12T14:16:43Z brandflake11: phoe: Oh it's the same one, thank you and sorry for my lack of understanding!
2021-04-12T14:17:07Z jdz: I use a couple tricks when doing this on SBCL: a) if the text does not have any unicode characters coercing each line into SIMPLE-BASE-STRING, and b) if there are fields that may have duplicate (string) values longer than 8 characters then using a hash-table to de-duplicate them.
2021-04-12T14:17:51Z brandflake11: When doing this option with slime, do you just set the option in emacs's inferior-lisp-program variable?
2021-04-12T14:18:12Z jdz: brandflake11: Run slime a prefix argument.
2021-04-12T14:18:32Z jdz: I.e., C-u M-x slime
2021-04-12T14:18:53Z phoe: brandflake11: my elisp variable, inferior-lisp-program, is "ros dynamic-space-size=8192 -Q run"
2021-04-12T14:18:59Z phoe: so it sure takes multiple arguments
2021-04-12T14:19:06Z brandflake11: Oh nice.
2021-04-12T14:19:19Z phoe: (the only difference is that it runs SBCL via roswell)
2021-04-12T14:19:59Z Nilby: I just tested reading a 800+k line 217.3M csv with the naive list reader with --dynamic-space-size 4096 and it was fine. (The slow part is guessing the column data types)
2021-04-12T14:20:43Z brandflake11: I just set it to "/usr/bin/sbcl --dynamic-space-size 2048". I'll see what happens
2021-04-12T14:20:57Z brandflake11: I just set inferior-lisp-program I mean
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2021-04-12T14:21:12Z phoe: should work
2021-04-12T14:21:31Z phoe: increase it further if 2GB is still too low
2021-04-12T14:21:45Z phoe: (you might need to download more RAM if you start swapping though)
2021-04-12T14:22:13Z brandflake11: lol, I have a fast internet connection, downloading more ram should be no problem XD
2021-04-12T14:23:54Z brandflake11: Where can you check the heap size at of sbcl while it's running?
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2021-04-12T14:24:01Z brandflake11: Will it just take more ram?
2021-04-12T14:24:17Z phoe: SB-EXT:DYNAMIC-SPACE-SIZE
2021-04-12T14:24:24Z phoe: it won't auto-expand, unlike e.g. CCL
2021-04-12T14:25:20Z brandflake11: I get DYNAMIC-SPACE-SIZE is unbound, so I'm guessing setting it where I did with the emacs variable didn't work
2021-04-12T14:25:35Z phoe: oh! it's a function
2021-04-12T14:25:50Z phoe: (SB-EXT:DYNAMIC-SPACE-SIZE) ;=> 8589934592
2021-04-12T14:26:10Z brandflake11: Okay, so here is what I got 3223322624
2021-04-12T14:26:15Z Nilby: also (room)
2021-04-12T14:27:06Z brandflake11: From room: Dynamic space usage is:   153,945,456 bytes.
2021-04-12T14:27:14Z brandflake11: That's not right, it should be 3GB
2021-04-12T14:27:20Z phoe: that's the used space
2021-04-12T14:27:24Z phoe: not the free one
2021-04-12T14:27:46Z phoe: but, 3223322624 === (* 1024 1024 3074)
2021-04-12T14:27:54Z phoe: which is just a wee bit above 3gb
2021-04-12T14:28:00Z brandflake11: Oh okay, so it did work.
2021-04-12T14:28:28Z brandflake11: Oh man, I'm glad you all helped me with this. I would not have been able to figure this out on my own
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2021-04-12T14:30:23Z brandflake11: I was really worried lisp just wasn't able to handle huge datasets, but i'm glad that it was just a matter of increasing the ram allowed to it
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2021-04-12T14:30:48Z Xach: Lisp can handle all kinds of nutty stuff
2021-04-12T14:30:56Z beach: brandflake11: Either way, it would not be a language limitation, but a limitation on specific implementations.
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2021-04-12T14:31:31Z ldbeth: good evening
2021-04-12T14:31:42Z brandflake11: beach: I always forget about that too. I love how it is just a standard
2021-04-12T14:32:03Z beach: brandflake11: Also, it is not RAM that you are assigning, it is just heap size.  If you have virtual memory, that would work too, but more slowly.
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2021-04-12T14:32:15Z brandflake11: beach: Oh, that makes more sense
2021-04-12T14:32:28Z Nilby: There is even hope on the horizon that sbcl will be able to increase it's own memory.
2021-04-12T14:32:40Z phoe: yes, some of that heap can (and likely will) get swapped to disk by the OS
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2021-04-12T14:33:09Z phoe: so you can have a 32G heap on 8G of RAM, if that is what you want and need
2021-04-12T14:33:49Z brandflake11: I'll have to give a shoutout to ssds then. They are a lifesaver
2021-04-12T14:34:08Z ldbeth: is it possible to transparently store lisp datum on disk via mmap
2021-04-12T14:34:34Z brandflake11: 6gb wasn't enough yet for the list, so I'm trying 7 now!
2021-04-12T14:35:46Z beach: ldbeth: Probably not.  You would somehow have to teach the garbage collector where to find it.  Plus, the way a lisp object is represented is not standardized.
2021-04-12T14:37:18Z Nilby: Acutally there's a lisp mmaped databse
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2021-04-12T14:37:39Z brandflake11: I just got the database list assigned as a variable. You guys all rock. Thank you so much for the help and teaching me something
2021-04-12T14:37:55Z brandflake11: It's taking 9gb of space. Yikes!
2021-04-12T14:38:06Z Nilby: It's not totally transparent though
2021-04-12T14:38:06Z brandflake11: *memory
2021-04-12T14:38:10Z ldbeth: a list? :)
2021-04-12T14:38:35Z Nilby: brandflake11: What was the size of your file?
2021-04-12T14:38:46Z ldbeth: it it likly to save some memory if it is an array
2021-04-12T14:38:48Z brandflake11: The file itself as just text was about 800mb
2021-04-12T14:39:15Z brandflake11: That's pretty big for a plain text file isn't it?
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2021-04-12T14:39:37Z jcowan: back to numeric representations: in Scheme, #e forces a float-style syntax to be implemented as an exact number:  thus #e1e20 is the integer 1^20, and #e1.5 is 3/2.
2021-04-12T14:40:50Z jcowan: Note that this is not just a coercion:  1e400 is normally infinity, but #e1e400 is the integer 10^400.
2021-04-12T14:41:14Z phoe: I don't think there's a standard CL way other than #.(* 1 (expt 1 20)) for integers and #.(rational ...) for ratios
2021-04-12T14:41:52Z ldbeth: make-load-form something
2021-04-12T14:42:16Z Nilby: 9gb seems like something is taking too much seeing for a 800mb file
2021-04-12T14:42:28Z jcowan: s/1^20/10^20
2021-04-12T14:43:20Z ldbeth: Yes, ideally it should be around 1GB if applied some clever encoding
2021-04-12T14:44:11Z brandflake11: Nilby: maybe I did something wrong. I got it all loaded in though, so that's what I'm happy about
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2021-04-12T14:45:10Z ldbeth: for example, a trie can significantly reduce the space of string data
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2021-04-12T14:46:42Z brandflake11: Maybe I should just use cl-csv instead now. I couldn't get that to load in the .csv file (I didn't know about checking *inferior-lisp* buffer to see that the heap was too low) so I turned the .csv into a list of lists using bash sed.
2021-04-12T14:46:50Z brandflake11: That's when I came here to ask for help
2021-04-12T14:47:33Z brandflake11: Because that was also too big for the heap size
2021-04-12T14:48:32Z beach: brandflake11: What does your data look like?
2021-04-12T14:48:49Z beach: brandflake11: Numbers?  Strings?  Characters?
2021-04-12T14:48:55Z brandflake11: ("0.000000" "1" "68" "92.45.54.178" "10.50.209.134" "" "" "" "" "" "116" "UDP")
2021-04-12T14:49:01Z brandflake11: A whole bunch of this ^
2021-04-12T14:50:05Z beach: Is there a lot of duplication?
2021-04-12T14:50:56Z brandflake11: No, each event is important.
2021-04-12T14:51:22Z beach: For example, if you have lots of empty strings, then the reader will allocate a separate empty string for each one.  That could become quite wasteful.
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2021-04-12T14:51:41Z brandflake11: beach: Oh, I wouldn't know how to mitigate that though
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2021-04-12T14:51:57Z brandflake11: beach: Can you just turn "" into nil?
2021-04-12T14:53:11Z beach: You could do that, but if you do it after the thing is read, then you still need as much space, at least temporarily.
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2021-04-12T14:57:46Z beach: brandflake11: When I asked about duplication, I didn't necessarily mean the full list in your example, but also individual elements such as "1" or "10.50.209.134".
2021-04-12T14:58:10Z brandflake11: beach: Oh, yeah, in that case there is a lot of duplication
2021-04-12T14:58:37Z beach: Then, if those items are immutable, a hash table will do wonders.
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2021-04-12T14:59:17Z brandflake11: beach: I'll look into hash tables. I have never used a hash table before. It's not hard to grasp is it?
2021-04-12T14:59:23Z phoe: not at all
2021-04-12T14:59:35Z phoe: ever heard of a data structure called a map?
2021-04-12T14:59:35Z beach: brandflake11: Wow, is Common Lisp your first programming language?
2021-04-12T14:59:56Z brandflake11: phoe: No I've never heard of a map either.
2021-04-12T15:00:15Z beach: brandflake11: Does your file consist of a single huge list, where each element is a list as in the example above?
2021-04-12T15:01:35Z brandflake11: beach: It's pretty much my first serious programming language. I am from the Music and Composition and Linux world, where I learned pure data as my first language. I learned a little bit of C++ on my own time last year, and then discovered common music, which brought me into common lisp. I love the syntax and realtime feeling of common lisp, so I've been learning it now to do other stuff
2021-04-12T15:01:56Z phoe: brandflake11: oh, nice!
2021-04-12T15:02:23Z brandflake11: beach:  Yes, exactly, it's just a big list of those lists I showed you
2021-04-12T15:02:35Z phoe: wrt books, you might want to read either Gentle or Practical Common Lisp; I'd recommend that you start with the former, and if you find it too gentle indeed, then switch to PCL
2021-04-12T15:02:41Z phoe: minion: tell brandflake11 about gentle
2021-04-12T15:02:42Z minion: brandflake11: look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/
2021-04-12T15:02:46Z phoe: minion: tell brandflake11 about pcl
2021-04-12T15:02:46Z minion: brandflake11: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2021-04-12T15:03:12Z brandflake11: phoe: Oh yeah, I've gotten to chapter 3 of practical common lisp (not very far I know). I need to keep working at it
2021-04-12T15:03:33Z phoe: personally I think that the second chapter of PCL is the worst
2021-04-12T15:03:38Z brandflake11: Actually people on here recommend I read Practical Common Lisp. It was all thanks to this IRC channel!
2021-04-12T15:03:39Z beach: brandflake11: Then, what I would do would be to not read the entire thing with a single READ, but to read one element list (as in your example) at a time, then process it by checking whether an element is in a hash table, and if so, reuse it.
2021-04-12T15:03:52Z beach: brandflake11: Your memory use would drop dramatically.
2021-04-12T15:04:06Z phoe: oh wait, it's chapter 3
2021-04-12T15:04:45Z brandflake11: beach: Thank you I really appreciate your suggestion. I'll look into doing that to reduce memory
2021-04-12T15:04:48Z phoe: in my opinion, PCL chapter 3 goes straight into business without explaining that the first practical chapter with disc DB is likely not meant to be fully understood straight away and is rather meant to give the reader an overall feeling of how to work with the language
2021-04-12T15:05:14Z phoe: it's the only explanation I see for "chapter 3 is where we make a database, and chapter 4 is where we actually start explaining what we've done"
2021-04-12T15:05:44Z brandflake11: phoe: I stopped reading it because I was more interested in making music with Common Lisp. I've been reading Heinrich Taube's "Notes from the MetaLevel" at the moment instead to get more music making done
2021-04-12T15:06:15Z brandflake11: phoe: Thank you though, I plan on keep going with it. I want to be able to do cool stuff with lisp
2021-04-12T15:06:38Z phoe: oooh, I see
2021-04-12T15:07:03Z phoe: does this book use common music?
2021-04-12T15:07:16Z brandflake11: Yes, the old Common Music 2.0 that still used common lisp
2021-04-12T15:07:24Z phoe: TIL!
2021-04-12T15:07:29Z phoe memorizes
2021-04-12T15:08:06Z brandflake11: phoe: There is a version of Common Music that integrates a realtime midi out using incudine. That's the version I'm using now
2021-04-12T15:08:47Z brandflake11: I'm able to use emacs as my music composition tool, which is really cool and spit out midi through jack to my synths and other toosl
2021-04-12T15:08:59Z brandflake11: C-t toosl
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2021-04-12T15:50:21Z kevingal: I've had this in my bookmarks for ages, been meaning to try it out: https://nunotrocado.com/software/cl-collider-tutorial-1.html
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2021-04-12T15:50:34Z kevingal: Might be interesting for anyone who wants to make music with CL.
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2021-04-12T15:57:19Z rumbler31_: Xach: you got a link to ql-minitar?  google is not helping me
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2021-04-12T15:59:32Z Nilby: ql-minitar is inside the quicklisp client, so ~/quicklisp/quicklisp/minitar.lisp
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2021-04-12T16:07:14Z rumbler31_: kevingal: check this out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqwuIfl-G1w&t=189s
2021-04-12T16:07:19Z rumbler31_: and all his other videos
2021-04-12T16:12:49Z rumbler31_: nilby: oh thanks
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2021-04-12T16:29:32Z kevingal: rumbler31_: super cool!
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2021-04-12T17:55:01Z CL-ASHOK: Quick Qn
2021-04-12T17:55:29Z CL-ASHOK: How do I "minimise" emacs terminal? I'm trying to run a Hunchentoot process, but want to return to the terminal (this is on a VM)
2021-04-12T17:56:57Z Xach: CL-ASHOK: i use screen for that
2021-04-12T17:58:04Z CL-ASHOK: @xach: what is that? (I'm currently remote into a Google VM with the non-gui emacs)
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2021-04-12T18:02:35Z Bike: it's a terminal multiplexer program https://www.gnu.org/software/screen/
2021-04-12T18:03:03Z CL-ASHOK: Thanks!
2021-04-12T18:04:01Z Bike: it's not as sophisticated, but you could also suspend the emacs process with probably control z
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2021-04-12T18:08:11Z CL-ASHOK: but would that stop Hunchentoot?
2021-04-12T18:09:29Z Bike: i don't remember
2021-04-12T18:10:01Z CL-ASHOK: No worries, thanks for your help. I will use screen
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2021-04-12T19:18:15Z jcowan: NOTHING CAN STOP HUNCHENTOOT
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2021-04-12T19:56:42Z nij: Hello, is there any functional "package manager" (or rather, system manager) for common lisp? I'm thinking of it as an analogue of straight.el (for elisp).
2021-04-12T19:57:03Z gabc: Well there's quicklisp
2021-04-12T19:57:11Z gabc: And it's quite functional
2021-04-12T19:57:18Z nij: "functional" in that a declarative file can reproduce all systems
2021-04-12T19:58:11Z gabc: yeah I made a cheap pun of "functional" that "it does its function well"
2021-04-12T19:58:35Z Shinmera: nij: what does it mean to 'reproduce all systems'? Download them? Load them into the image?
2021-04-12T19:58:47Z nij: Shinmera: just to download them.
2021-04-12T19:59:03Z nij: For example, straight.el lets you do this : (el-patch :type git :host github :repo "raxod502/el-patch")
2021-04-12T19:59:30Z Shinmera: just put (ql:quickload '(a b c)) into a file then or is that not declarative enough
2021-04-12T19:59:41Z nij: With this in a declarative file, which is run by the package/system manager, the corresponding package/system will be fetched.
2021-04-12T20:00:09Z nij: Shinmera: yes, that's what I do now.
2021-04-12T20:00:22Z nij: However, can I specify the versions and recipes of the packages/systems?
2021-04-12T20:01:05Z Shinmera: No, quicklisp packages snappshots of the ecosystem so that all the libraries are versioned as one thing at once, since usually systems do not specify versioned dependencies.
2021-04-12T20:01:06Z nij: E.g. I might want ql to fetch the system from a specific repo (maybe even local!).. and I might want a specific version/commit.
2021-04-12T20:02:01Z nij: Shinmera: "systems do not specify versioned dependencies"... really?!
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2021-04-12T20:02:05Z Shinmera: yes.
2021-04-12T20:02:11Z nij: Uh oh..
2021-04-12T20:02:22Z Shinmera: ASDF cannot deal with knowing multiple versions of the same system at once. It'll only accept one.
2021-04-12T20:02:22Z waleee-cl: nij:  if you put it in ~/common-lisp or the appropriate subdir of ~/quicklisp it will be preferred
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2021-04-12T20:02:39Z waleee-cl: (before the version in quicklisp)
2021-04-12T20:02:42Z Shinmera: So you'll have to either manage the system registry manually, or replace ASDF wholesale.
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2021-04-12T20:04:00Z Shinmera: I want to do the latter at some point and have some fun ideas for it, but am wholly lacking in time lately.
2021-04-12T20:04:01Z nij: waleee-cl: yeah.. but that doesn't feel functional and declarative :-(
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2021-04-12T20:04:57Z waleee-cl: there's https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/clpm/clpm but that still uses quicklisp atm
2021-04-12T20:05:26Z waleee-cl: also not declerative since you need to run a separate binary
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2021-04-12T20:05:41Z nij: What if A1 and A2 depend on A, and suddenly A has a new version.
2021-04-12T20:05:53Z nij: Say A1 follows and depends on the new A, but A2 does not..
2021-04-12T20:06:10Z waleee-cl: go for guix then?
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2021-04-12T20:06:57Z nij: Tried (trying..). It's very hard.
2021-04-12T20:07:18Z Shinmera: nij: then either it breaks at compile time and quicklisp won't release a new dist until it's fixed, or it breaks at runtime and users will complain until it's fixed.
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2021-04-12T20:07:38Z Shinmera: usually the former.
2021-04-12T20:09:10Z nij: Wow. So suppose A is what many things depend on.. say Alexandria, and say one day A upgrades.
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2021-04-12T20:09:29Z nij: If one single system doesn't upgrade accordingly, quicklisp won't accept the newer Alexandria?
2021-04-12T20:09:44Z Shinmera: no, quicklisp won't do a release at all.
2021-04-12T20:09:56Z nij: :-O !!!
2021-04-12T20:10:02Z nij: This is so wrong. (sorry if it's offending..)
2021-04-12T20:10:11Z Shinmera: that's just like, your opinion, man.
2021-04-12T20:10:16Z gabc: nij: well it fixes the dependency problem
2021-04-12T20:10:37Z nij: yeah it's just my opinion..
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2021-04-12T20:11:20Z Lycurgus: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/clpm/clpm Supports HTTPS, what is that saying about ql ?
2021-04-12T20:11:51Z Shinmera: ql doesn't depend on anything, but clpm depends on a lot of things.
2021-04-12T20:11:57Z Shinmera: ql has a much harder target than clpm.
2021-04-12T20:12:19Z Lycurgus: so it's sayin it can depend?
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2021-04-12T20:12:32Z nij: Well.. I guess all sorts of package managers suffer from the same issues - except things like nix or guix.
2021-04-12T20:13:05Z nij: So this model has been working for years. I shouldn't say it's so wrong then :-( My apology.
2021-04-12T20:13:15Z Lycurgus: (where ql don't)
2021-04-12T20:13:35Z Shinmera: nij: It's not great, but it's the best Xach can do with the ecosystem we have (particularly ASDF)
2021-04-12T20:14:20Z Bike: multiple versions of the same library can't really exist in the same image, anyway
2021-04-12T20:14:34Z Shinmera: yes but the build system can select the best version to actually load.
2021-04-12T20:14:36Z Bike: i guess if they wanted to they could do things with packages
2021-04-12T20:14:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: I also like that this model encourages people to not make breaking changes :)
2021-04-12T20:14:57Z Shinmera: that would already go a long way to remedying this mess.
2021-04-12T20:15:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: My personal policy is to fork and rename rather than push a breaking version
2021-04-12T20:15:29Z Shinmera: phoe: ping about your verbose issue
2021-04-12T20:15:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: And, I think Rich Hickey's critique of semver is really on the mark here
2021-04-12T20:15:48Z Shinmera: semver does suck.
2021-04-12T20:15:51Z nij: fiddlerwoaroof: what's his critique about?
2021-04-12T20:15:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: In the JS world, there's so much useless time spent fixing breaking version changes
2021-04-12T20:16:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: Very few breaking changes are actually worth it, if you account for the cost to your users
2021-04-12T20:16:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: Especially for libraries
2021-04-12T20:16:25Z nij: Why not using guix/nix then?
2021-04-12T20:16:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: Because those don't actually solve the problem
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2021-04-12T20:16:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: When I pin a guix/nix version, I'm opting out of bug-fixes and security fixes
2021-04-12T20:17:30Z nij: Well.. you can pin an interval of versions..
2021-04-12T20:17:56Z nij: And in the classical model as well.. say in the case of ql, if no releases is given, bug/security fixes are out of reach too.
2021-04-12T20:18:23Z nij: ;; interval of versions ==> I retract! I'm not actually sure about this.
2021-04-12T20:19:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: What I mean is just that, if library authors rename rather than introduce breaking changes, updating libraries becomes relatively safe
2021-04-12T20:19:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: And breaking changes become reportable bugs
2021-04-12T20:20:33Z Shinmera: This assumes that packages are actually self-contained and don't have changes that influence other parts
2021-04-12T20:20:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: What do you mean by "packages"?
2021-04-12T20:21:02Z mfiano: oh the whole accretion vs concretion talk?
2021-04-12T20:21:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think this is the spec talk
2021-04-12T20:21:15Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: lisp packages?
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2021-04-12T20:21:38Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: a system can affect other parts than the packages it declares and modifies though.
2021-04-12T20:21:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: Cool, yeah: two systems modifying the same Lisp package seems like a bad practice
2021-04-12T20:22:17Z mfiano: Depends what you mean by modify.
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2021-04-12T20:22:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, actually implementing this completely ranges from difficult to impossible, but I think it's useful to approach distributing libraries with this mindset
2021-04-12T20:23:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think Rich Hickey's ideal world involves something like a spec/test registry inside your library manager (QL, or such) that rejects updates that cause existing tests/specs to fail
2021-04-12T20:24:09Z Shinmera: mfiano: for instance systems can offer generic functions to extend, or hook lists that another system might latch on to. Just making two packages won't resolve the conflict, then.
2021-04-12T20:24:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, quicklisp would refuse to update a package unless all the pre-existing tests past, as well as any newly added tests
2021-04-12T20:24:40Z Shinmera: Anyway, the point being that it's not always that easy to allow multiple versions at once.
2021-04-12T20:25:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: I sort of think of the goal is to make the idea of "versioning" obsolete
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2021-04-12T20:25:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: Every change to the code of an existing symbol is backwards compatible and backwards incompatible changes force a rename
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2021-04-12T20:26:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: mfiano: thinking about it, the talk also talks a lot about accretion
2021-04-12T20:26:31Z nij: which talk?
2021-04-12T20:27:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: There's a summary and link here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19076444
2021-04-12T20:27:16Z mfiano: yes, hickey's stance on semver talked a lot about "accretion" and "concretion"
2021-04-12T20:27:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: "any breaking change (i.e. a major version bump in semver) might as well be considered another product/package/lib and should better choose another name instead of pretending to be the same thing with a bumped number."
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2021-04-12T20:27:29Z mfiano: I don't agree with a lot of it, but he makes _some_ good points
2021-04-12T20:28:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: Whether or not this is practical, it's extremely appealing for someone who's dayjob is all JS/React stuff
2021-04-12T20:29:15Z Odin-: Practical is usually the first thing out the door when computer ideas evolve.
2021-04-12T20:29:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: Also, I think people who force themselves to always keep their dependencies up to date find themselves rejecting libraries that exhibit a pattern of breaking changes
2021-04-12T20:29:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: I know I do
2021-04-12T20:30:04Z mfiano: My solution it the Lisp curse. I rarely find libraries that are production ready/suitable for my needs, so I write my own :x
2021-04-12T20:30:16Z mfiano: is8
2021-04-12T20:30:19Z mfiano: is*
2021-04-12T20:30:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: mfiano: I generally try to fork and PR
2021-04-12T20:30:26Z no-defun-allowed: Well spooked my prototypes
2021-04-12T20:30:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: or just fork
2021-04-12T20:30:53Z nij: mfiano: respect
2021-04-12T20:31:06Z mfiano: Not good at understanding someone else's thought processes with heravy macros and protocols that I would have never designed.
2021-04-12T20:31:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, the Lisp curse isn't really a lisp-only thing
2021-04-12T20:31:30Z mfiano: Lisp is tyoo flexible in that it has a larger burden for onboarding new collaborators due to that
2021-04-12T20:31:32Z nij: mfiano: how do you do versioning of your own code?
2021-04-12T20:32:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: A lot of people I've worked with are really unwilling to take a dependency because of the ongoing maintenance cost the dependency's lifecycle imposes
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2021-04-12T20:32:30Z tom-bsd: Hey guys. I'm on FreeBSD trying to install some quicklisp libraries with SBCL and it gives me errors like `Can't create directory /usr/local/lib/common-lisp/alexandria/sbclfasl/`. It's probably a permissions problem but isn't there a way to install these libraries to my home?
2021-04-12T20:32:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: mfiano: yeah, although I tend to find that just forcing myself to fix the problem I find in a library really helps
2021-04-12T20:32:42Z mfiano: For my own stuff, I  haven't ever got to what the script iddies call 0.1.0
2021-04-12T20:32:50Z mfiano: So i odn't have any users
2021-04-12T20:33:15Z Odin-: The "every tiny task a dependency" mentality is quite recent, too.
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2021-04-12T20:33:56Z Odin-: So its absence can't really be a Lisp-specific thing.
2021-04-12T20:34:10Z Odin-: At the very least it should effect Fortran, too. :p
2021-04-12T20:34:42Z mfiano: My software is always pre-0.1.x, use at your own risk. Mostly because gamedev and support libraries are hard.
2021-04-12T20:34:54Z Odin-: tom-bsd: I thought the default way of install Quicklisp did that...
2021-04-12T20:35:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: As far as I can tell, "NIH syndrome" cuts both ways
2021-04-12T20:35:32Z mfiano: I recently moved them to my own private host and stoped releasing to QL
2021-04-12T20:35:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's a choice between an ongoing maintenance cost for in-house tools, or an ongoing maintenance cost whenever some random person decides to update the tool
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2021-04-12T20:36:34Z nij: mfiano: ?! How about the old versions?
2021-04-12T20:36:46Z nij: What if some systems depend on your codes?
2021-04-12T20:36:58Z mfiano: What is released is still pulled by Xach each month
2021-04-12T20:39:06Z tom-bsd: Odin-: quicklisp is installed locally but loading libraries complains about making the aforementioned folder
2021-04-12T20:39:11Z no-defun-allowed: Imagine complaining about flexibility and being able to do things yourself, this meme made by "who the fuck actually believes in the Lisp 'curse' lmao" gang
2021-04-12T20:39:16Z mfiano: That was requersted by Xach and phoe iirc. I don't mind I guess, but I'm not interesting in developing for others. My code is  MIT and anyone can use/fork do whatever, and I don't have to "fix" it for their strange use cases
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2021-04-12T20:40:01Z no-defun-allowed: Man, your head is haunted, you have bats in your belfry!
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2021-04-12T20:41:41Z nij: mfiano: can i still see your code online?
2021-04-12T20:41:43Z mfiano: I liked it best when I wrote code before code on the internet was a thing. Nobody likes my code, but I do, so problem solved.
2021-04-12T20:41:53Z Odin-: no-defun-allowed: That reads like something Max Stirner would have written.
2021-04-12T20:42:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: The lisp curse thing is Mark Tarver, right?
2021-04-12T20:42:20Z no-defun-allowed: Odin-: Nope, never heard of this Max Stirner :)
2021-04-12T20:42:29Z no-defun-allowed: fiddlerwoaroof: W*nestock
2021-04-12T20:42:31Z nij: mfiano: do you work in tech? How do you stick with just cl?
2021-04-12T20:42:44Z mfiano: nij: yes, git.mfiano.net
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2021-04-12T20:43:14Z Odin-: no-defun-allowed: I'll just put it down to endless spooks, then.
2021-04-12T20:43:18Z mfiano: yes usually CL, though not currently, but i heard a clojure contract is coming my way soon.
2021-04-12T20:43:46Z no-defun-allowed: Odin-: Duped egoists? In _my_ #lisp? It's more likely than you think.
2021-04-12T20:44:22Z Odin-: Ah, so it _was_ sarcasm. I'll need to recalibrate my meter, then.
2021-04-12T20:44:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: no
2021-04-12T20:44:46Z mfiano: Maybe one day when I actually make something usable, complete with offline documentation, manuals, books, etc, I'll publicize my stuff.
2021-04-12T20:44:46Z no-defun-allowed hoped the :) gave it away
2021-04-12T20:44:46Z moon-child: I don't think the 'lisp curse' thing is _incorrect_, strictly, it just reflects a perversion of sensibilities and morals
2021-04-12T20:44:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: no-defun-allowed: but it was based on "The Bipolar Lisp Programmer" by Tarver
2021-04-12T20:44:54Z mfiano: But I am pretty far from that
2021-04-12T20:45:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: My read on Tarver is that he bought into stuff thinking that it would mean he would get free work on Qi/Shen and then got really annoyed to discover that using the GPL didn't mean that people would be interested in his project
2021-04-12T20:46:09Z nij: :golden-utils <3
2021-04-12T20:46:32Z no-defun-allowed: My own (actual) argument is that for any progress to be made any time soon, you do in fact need to produce half-assed prototypes, and only from there is it reasonable to start talking about a common design based on what information you have.
2021-04-12T20:46:35Z mfiano: Rich Hickey did make one point that has always stuck with me. Most programmers, and especially Lispers, are too focused on code, and not the artifact. Does the code matter if it doesn't provide something innovative or to fill a niche in computing?
2021-04-12T20:46:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think this also is behind the whole Lisp Curse thing:.
2021-04-12T20:47:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't find that sort of point all that interesting
2021-04-12T20:47:19Z nij: mfiano: besides of your :golden-utils, do you use other utils often?
2021-04-12T20:47:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: 90% of the code I write I write because it solves a problem I or the company I work for has
2021-04-12T20:47:52Z mfiano: nij: Just that, which includes alexandria re-exported
2021-04-12T20:48:15Z no-defun-allowed: So the faster I can crank those out the better. But it's also falsely applied when two projects have similar but incompatible design goals, which annoys me further.
2021-04-12T20:48:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think treating "filling a niche in computing" this way has a tendency to create projects that never actually finish
2021-04-12T20:49:05Z nij: mfiano: since 2008? Holly's cow!
2021-04-12T20:49:32Z nij: mfiano: what if alexandria upgrades itself one day?
2021-04-12T20:49:41Z no-defun-allowed: For example, one very clever HN poster complained people made too many array processing libraries. To pick two arbitrarily: one uses lazy arrays which you must manually force computation of. One is feature-compatible with numpy. The latter precludes the former, so it is nonsense to say they are redundant.
2021-04-12T20:50:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: nij: alexandria is probably the last library to do that
2021-04-12T20:50:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: It also has a versioned package scheme
2021-04-12T20:50:17Z Odin-: no-defun-allowed: "There is more than one programming language! How wasteful!"
2021-04-12T20:50:18Z nij: fiddlerwoaroof: why?
2021-04-12T20:50:26Z nij: I mean "the last"..
2021-04-12T20:50:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: Because the developers of alexandria are really picky about the code they accept
2021-04-12T20:51:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: The breaking changes, afaict, are all in ALEXANDRIA-2
2021-04-12T20:51:30Z mfiano: fiddlerwoaroof: I am perfectly fine with that. I program to learn, not to create. But I'm not focused on designing new macrology usecases, MOP, or other meta-programming. My current project is roughly 40kloc, and all my brain power is whiteboarding and cranking out code I need for the artifact, not how I can bend the language with more yaks
2021-04-12T20:51:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: :)
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2021-04-12T20:52:26Z mfiano: I would be doing it in any other language if some dude 20 years ago didn't rip Python out of my hands to show me that CL was better at RAD
2021-04-12T20:52:55Z no-defun-allowed: And I think that to make a library which supports both, you would need people aware of compiling either. But if APL implementations weren't doing lazy computation behind the back, or we picked something completely new, I doubt the magical utopia where everyone does one library per concept would have ever discovered that it might be useful.
2021-04-12T20:53:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I've never understood the desire to have _a_ array programming library
2021-04-12T20:53:34Z no-defun-allowed: Odin-: That continues to the "wheels in the head" point, so on and so forth.
2021-04-12T20:53:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: or _the one true_ web server
2021-04-12T20:53:41Z mfiano: alexandria, picky?
2021-04-12T20:53:48Z mfiano: I submitted some code to that project
2021-04-12T20:53:54Z mfiano: Haven't had an isuee
2021-04-12T20:54:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm just going by the README: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/alexandria/alexandria
2021-04-12T20:54:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: "picky" is probably the wrong word, too negative
2021-04-12T20:55:10Z mfiano: One of the last changes I made was quite a few years ago, admittedly
2021-04-12T20:55:24Z no-defun-allowed: (Then for the actually hard stuff, e.g. compiling pattern matching, you still have few people attempt to do it well, and so there is still approximately 1 pattern matcher used in CL. I'm just remembering what I wrote in the book.)
2021-04-12T20:55:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: The developers of alexandria seem generally committed to a no-backwards-incompatible changes philosophy
2021-04-12T20:55:47Z mfiano: It was rewriting LERP to use the numerically stable method (at the cost of an extra multiply, which smart compilers could fuse it, so the precision is well worth it)
2021-04-12T20:55:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: no-defun-allowed: yeah, trivia
2021-04-12T20:56:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've always had mixed feelings about it
2021-04-12T20:57:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: Pattern matching, like CASE and friends, is a static dispatch technique, and I generally try to use dynamic-dispatch wherever possible :)
2021-04-12T20:58:13Z Odin-: no-defun-allowed: I'm just always a little interested in how people seem to simultaneously consider software development to follow completely different rules from other productive activity and expect it to function exactly the same.
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2021-04-12T20:58:52Z no-defun-allowed: Sure, I am not making a comment on pattern matching though, but there are a few methods to compile it, and they require some effort to make. You can make the language bend as much as you want, but the algorithm has to get in there somehow.
2021-04-12T20:58:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: This might be a sign that I learned to program from 90s books about OOP, but I have an aversion to conditionals that can't be extended without modifying the code
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2021-04-12T20:59:03Z mfiano: eric normand gave a good talk last week about the wrong direction software development is taking, and i have agreed with that for a good 10 years
2021-04-12T20:59:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah
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2021-04-12T21:00:18Z no-defun-allowed: Odin-: Absolutely.
2021-04-12T21:00:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: mfiano: one really clarifying thing for me about Lisps/FP/etc. was listening to the episode of Cognitect's podcast featuring Matthew Flatt (of Racket fame)
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2021-04-12T21:01:34Z mfiano: I am not familiar with it, but given the number of talks I've seen on FP and the like, and my short-term meory, that isn't surprising
2021-04-12T21:01:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: At one point the host just sort of asserted the Clojure dogma `data > functions > macros` and Matthew Flatt responded, "actually I think functions > macros > data"
2021-04-12T21:02:26Z mood_ is now known as mood
2021-04-12T21:02:27Z mfiano: I don't see the correlation
2021-04-12T21:03:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: Clojurians like to say "try to solve a problem by representing it with data, then use functions if that doesn't work and finally use macros"
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2021-04-12T21:03:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've come to think that one should almost always prefer functions and macros to data representations (especially raw data literals in code)
2021-04-12T21:04:11Z mfiano: I tend to write functions always, with the ocassional macro function.
2021-04-12T21:04:11Z no-defun-allowed: I found this excellent rule engine called EVAL, you should totally use it with...data yes that's data
2021-04-12T21:04:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: My experience is that a codebase built around domain-specific abstractions ends up being much more maintainable long-run, than a code base built around data
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2021-04-12T21:05:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: Because when you need to make an architecture change, you don't have to spend as much time tracking down data dependencies, you just re-implement the abstractions
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2021-04-12T21:06:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, I've come to realize that Clojure just isn't designed for me
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2021-04-12T21:06:29Z mfiano: Maintainable code comes from understanding the domain. How you use the constructs available matters less.
2021-04-12T21:06:48Z mfiano: and this is the point Normand was trying to hit last week
2021-04-12T21:07:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't think that's really true: your understanding of the domain should be reflected in the language you build to write your software
2021-04-12T21:07:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: Domain knowledge should, almost always, be reified into the constructs of your programming language so you can program in the language of your domain
2021-04-12T21:08:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: Not following this principle creates huge messes for the people that maintain the code
2021-04-12T21:09:21Z Odin-: No Turing tarpits for you, then?
2021-04-12T21:09:21Z no-defun-allowed: Something rubs me the wrong way about using maps and sequences for everything. Maybe I don't do the kinds of problems where those are fine.
2021-04-12T21:09:52Z mfiano: The point is general purpose abstractions, like design patterns as they are called in other languages, are just usually the result of one caring too much about the code and not how it should be structured for your domain. Maintainability just sort of falls out from a deep understanding of your field/and lots of whiteboarding.
2021-04-12T21:10:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: The biggest issue is you create an implicit dependency between line 40 with {:a 1 :b 2} and line 80 with {:a 1 :b 2}
2021-04-12T21:10:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: Then you refactor line 40 and nothing tells you line 80 is broken
2021-04-12T21:10:21Z no-defun-allowed: (Though for it to be "everything", we should define #{} to be 0, #{#{}} to be 1, so on and so forth.)
2021-04-12T21:11:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: mfiano: I agree with that, I just think saying "how you use the concepts available matters less" misses the point: understanding the domain is not enough, you need to write code that reflects your understanding of the domain
2021-04-12T21:11:46Z mfiano: There are whole periods of weeks where I can't write code because I'm still understanding the math, logic and how it all permutes to be written in a maintainable fastion. POD, mixins, design patterns...none of that matters until the domain is well  understood
2021-04-12T21:12:10Z Odin-: What's POD short for in this context?
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2021-04-12T21:12:21Z mfiano: plain old data
2021-04-12T21:12:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I'm sort of the opposite: I can't understand the domain without having a repl open to mess around with
2021-04-12T21:12:38Z Odin-: Ah.
2021-04-12T21:12:40Z Odin-: That old myth.
2021-04-12T21:12:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: I learn the domain by writing code in it
2021-04-12T21:13:41Z mfiano: I've had to work on serious projects professionally where we couldn't afford to make these types of mistakes that arise from "just coding"
2021-04-12T21:13:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: Most of the code doesn't actually make it to production
2021-04-12T21:13:59Z mfiano: Software development to me has always been moreso about thinking than coding.
2021-04-12T21:14:01Z Odin-: There are still people who think there's really something called "plain text" in computers.
2021-04-12T21:15:01Z Odin-: And that processors actually work with numbers. (Shocking, right?)
2021-04-12T21:15:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's just that I find iterating with prototypes designed to explore one corner of the search space ends up being more efficient than trying to think through the domain
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2021-04-12T21:16:25Z TMA: I have an experience that is in the middle between fiddlerwoaroof and mfiano. there is the exploration to learn something of the domain, which is usually ill specified and therefore not available with a priori reasoning alone
2021-04-12T21:17:14Z TMA: but there is also the need to pause and whiteboard, to build the model in the head prior to coding
2021-04-12T21:17:31Z mfiano: I'm also old and jadad, so can probably ignore my opinions :)
2021-04-12T21:17:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: TMA: yeah, when talking about these things I find that I occasionally express a position that sounds more extreme than it actually is
2021-04-12T21:18:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: I do spend time whiteboarding/learning, I just have also had the experience of a project where we spent weeks planning only to discover that what we thought was possible wasn't
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2021-04-12T21:18:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: Within like 30 minutes of attempting to execute
2021-04-12T21:19:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: Or, in one case, a team insisting on like a month of onboarding training before I was allowed to write code
2021-04-12T21:19:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: Most of which was basically useless because I didn't really understand the context until I tried to change the code
2021-04-12T21:20:50Z mfiano: I could write a whole book on debunking the ECS paradigm some time...and I probably will. It amazes me how people flock to shiny things that just shift the shift the complexity around (and add new issues because they hadn't considering their design may require a new architectural model coupled to the domain.
2021-04-12T21:21:06Z mfiano: )
2021-04-12T21:21:50Z TMA: mfiano: I will refrain from ignoring your opinions, if I may. There is certainly much to be learned, even if there are minor corrections to be applied.
2021-04-12T21:22:09Z no-defun-allowed: I still need to write my implementation of "ECS" using CLOS for serial parts just to spite someone. But I forgot who I'm supposed to be spiting.
2021-04-12T21:22:38Z mfiano: EC couples with CLOS better than ECS
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2021-04-12T21:22:54Z Shinmera wonders if he could find a way to use no-defun-allowed's time for his own projects by coercing her into spiting him for something
2021-04-12T21:23:33Z mfiano: A true ECS is impossible anyway, so can only go so far before you have stateful code
2021-04-12T21:24:21Z no-defun-allowed: Sorry, I have a waiting list of about three months, if you wouldn't mind writing your name and project down here then I'll get back to you then
2021-04-12T21:24:51Z mfiano: what are you working on no-defun-allowed ?
2021-04-12T21:25:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: no-defun-allowed: it sounds to me like you're just saying we have to make you angry enough
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2021-04-12T21:26:43Z nij: If I get a cl system from guix, how do I load it? QL:QUICKLOAD doesn't look at those paths by default after all.
2021-04-12T21:27:15Z no-defun-allowed: mfiano: Right now, I just finished the first part of redoing my regular expression compiler, which was to use (and debug) someone else's technique for submatching with a DFA. Next is to add a protocol for letting the client provide optimisations (e.g. optimising constant string searching). Then I have to look after two lock-free hash table implementations.
2021-04-12T21:27:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: nij: you have to figure out how guix expects you to configure ASDF's registry
2021-04-12T21:27:36Z mfiano: no-defun-allowed: Did I not see a post a couple weeks ago stating you were not contributing to open source anymore or something of the sort?
2021-04-12T21:28:21Z no-defun-allowed: I announced I am taking a break from Netfarm because, wow, I'm actually too fed up with people there to bother improving their lives in any meaningful way. But now I also have a paper on that to edit.
2021-04-12T21:28:41Z mfiano: Is people of Netfarm, CL people?
2021-04-12T21:28:43Z no-defun-allowed: mfiano: Yes, now I've decided to work on other things because otherwise I have too much spare time :)
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2021-04-12T21:29:06Z no-defun-allowed: No, not CL people. The reasons why are off-topic for #lisp.
2021-04-12T21:29:06Z mfiano: The only mention I ever heard of it is from you, so I'm curious who these people are that annoyed you. Getting the torches ready
2021-04-12T21:30:26Z mfiano: Ok then. Well one thing I know all too well is breaks are good. I would never be able to commit to one project and stay sane.
2021-04-12T21:32:02Z mfiano: Mostly because I have to figure out hard problems on my own that require subconscious thinking
2021-04-12T21:32:20Z mfiano: If anyone wants to join me to polish up my game engine, I wouldn't mind
2021-04-12T21:32:34Z nij: fiddlerwoaroof: I guess I should ask #guix then.
2021-04-12T21:34:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: yeah, my guess is that reading guix expressions for something like nyxt might be helpful too
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2021-04-12T21:34:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: my guess is that it involves `guix environment` but, unfortunately, I can't use guix because of their stance on mac support/free software
2021-04-12T21:35:38Z no-defun-allowed: In short, despite many differences of opinion on design, only one CL person has come close to saying that all my work is worthless.
2021-04-12T21:35:59Z nij: fiddlerwoaroof: thanks :)
2021-04-12T21:36:43Z mfiano: no-defun-allowed: all your work was worthless? i see a logic flaw already
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2021-04-12T21:47:55Z Shinmera: no-defun-allowed: I've had people almost word for word say all my libraries are worthless. The good thing is that doesn't actually matter.
2021-04-12T21:49:28Z no-defun-allowed: Shinmera: That was a slight simplification, they said any free software was worthless. Normally I'd be laughing, but no one there disagreed there. On the other hand, they could have been laughing internally as well.
2021-04-12T21:50:27Z mfiano: All my work is worthless, in the fact that it isn't usable by others, is broken until I finish it, and is unknown by others...but I still think it is very _worthwhile_ to work on given my goals of bettering myself and the hopeful one day it will at the very least be usable to me (and others would be a bonus)
2021-04-12T21:51:41Z no-defun-allowed: Pretty sure there is no network stack (and/or operating system) without any open-source components, including proprietary ones, so I wonder how they didn't contradict themself by being able to write that.
2021-04-12T21:53:06Z no-defun-allowed: What I read was straight slander, and there's no point discussing that in itself, but that it was taken remotely seriously is telling.
2021-04-12T21:55:00Z Shinmera: Yeah, unfortunately even obviously off crazy talk can still really get to ya.
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2021-04-12T21:58:15Z no-defun-allowed: My thought process went something like "Here's my audience I suppose, if anyone would immediately be interested in e.g collaborative filtering for moderation it'd be them, and they're now saying no open-source program has done anything good for society. And half my time these days is spent cleaning up code and writing documentation. How kind of you!"
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2021-04-12T22:29:26Z dim: fatal error encountered in SBCL pid 26098 pthread 0x7000003c0000: SIGABRT received.
2021-04-12T22:30:06Z phoe: dim: which SBCL version?
2021-04-12T22:30:18Z dim: that seems to happen a lot with SBCL 2.1.3, here loading list-of
2021-04-12T22:30:28Z phoe: huh, I remember an issue with SIGABRT mentioned somewhere in #sbcl
2021-04-12T22:30:29Z dim: it seems that CCL also just got a sigabort
2021-04-12T22:30:42Z phoe: oh? now that's interesting
2021-04-12T22:31:29Z dim: ccl64 -e '(ql:quickload "pgloader")' to reproduce
2021-04-12T22:31:51Z dim: I just cleaned my cache, too, so that might be related (in that it's trying to compile something?)
2021-04-12T22:32:07Z dim: I have CCL 1.12 for information
2021-04-12T22:32:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: This sounds like an FFI issue
2021-04-12T22:32:59Z dim: anyway I wanted to hack in CL and/or pgloader this vacations, but I guess I'll do something else instead :/
2021-04-12T22:33:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't have that problem in 2.1.0
2021-04-12T22:34:18Z scymtym: SIGABRT is often from uncaught exceptions in C++ code
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2021-04-12T22:36:21Z dim: can I install sbcl 2.1.0 with brew easily?
2021-04-12T22:36:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: dim: I'm not sure, I'm using nix
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2021-04-12T22:37:33Z dim: yeah doesn't look like it
2021-04-12T22:38:33Z dim: time to see if ECL can load pgloader these days
2021-04-12T22:39:06Z phoe: dim: actually it does seem so?
2021-04-12T22:39:13Z phoe: brew install sbcl@2.1.0
2021-04-12T22:39:27Z phoe: and/or brew switch sbcl 2.1.0
2021-04-12T22:39:41Z dim: Error: No available formula or cask with the name "sbcl@2.1.0".
2021-04-12T22:39:49Z dim: yeah that's when you have it already locally perhaps
2021-04-12T22:39:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: dim: what are you using? I'm on an x86-64 MBP, my M1 sees a lot more SIGABRTs with sbcl
2021-04-12T22:40:13Z dim: it's still an x64 and Catalina here, didn't make the jump to BigSur yet
2021-04-12T22:40:15Z phoe: huh, seems like you'd need to use an old formula or something... bleh
2021-04-12T22:40:18Z dim: I'm not sure I want to ;-)
2021-04-12T22:40:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: Big Sur is, in my experience, much better than Catalina
2021-04-12T22:41:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: I sort of skipped over Mojave and Catalina
2021-04-12T22:41:18Z dim: yeah except if you use/develop anything that doesn't know how to process EINTR when doing open(2), like Postgres and most of the source code I work with
2021-04-12T22:41:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: I see
2021-04-12T22:41:50Z dim: and except if you have hardware that doesn't support BigSur yet, too (I'm still waiting for drivers updates for an audio interface)
2021-04-12T22:42:02Z dim: but anyway, ECL is compiling, slowly, but making progress
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2021-04-12T22:47:03Z dim: Condition of type: SIMPLE-ERROR ; Unable to create pipe C ; library explanation: Too many open files.
2021-04-12T22:47:15Z dim: okay I'm done with hacking in CL for a while
2021-04-12T22:47:30Z dim: I had a nice shot tonight, won't happen again anytime soon if I must first fix all those things
2021-04-12T22:47:55Z dim: gn friends, and thanks for all the help you could provide, much appreciated as always!
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2021-04-13T03:01:45Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-04-13T03:19:31Z nij: [crossed-post from #guix] Any guixers :)? Is there any idea how to use quicklisp on a guix system? NixOS seems to have a work-around.. but I haven't found any for guix - https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/blob/master/pkgs/development/lisp-modules/quicklisp.sh
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2021-04-13T03:32:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: morning, beach!
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2021-04-13T07:14:14Z rain3: hi  is the source for this available anywhere ? https://common-lisp.net/project/erlang-in-lisp/
2021-04-13T07:16:10Z rain3: ok I think I found it git clone http://common-lisp.net/project/erlang-in-lisp/git/
2021-04-13T07:16:16Z lukego: nij: I'm not a Guix'er but I use ql2nix and that works well for me jfyi
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2021-04-13T07:38:38Z varjag: is there special wisdom in intercepting socket-errors in postmodern's with-connection instead of letting the application handle it?
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2021-04-13T09:30:58Z dim: hi! how can I find out which of my ASDF dependencies or their dependencies require a given system, here CFFI (or actually abcl-cffi)?
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2021-04-13T09:40:00Z dim: (let ((pgloader-deps (mapcar #'ql-dist:system-file-name
2021-04-13T09:40:00Z dim:                                       (flatten
2021-04-13T09:40:00Z dim:                                        (ql-dist:dependency-tree "pgloader"))))
2021-04-13T09:40:00Z dim:                (depends-on-cffi (ql:who-depends-on 'cffi)))
2021-04-13T09:40:01Z dim:            (intersection pgloader-deps depends-on-cffi :test #'string-equal))
2021-04-13T09:40:04Z dim: sorry for multi-line posting
2021-04-13T09:40:13Z dim: I guess I was too happy to be able to do it ;-)
2021-04-13T09:40:50Z flip214: dim: you already use ql-dist:dependency-tree
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2021-04-13T10:08:51Z dim: yeah, it still is a game of whack-a-mole and I'm not there yet
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2021-04-13T10:18:31Z dim: okay, and now it fails for yet another reason
2021-04-13T10:18:45Z dim: no CL during vacations for me it seems :/
2021-04-13T10:19:01Z dim: for the very curious: Error while trying to load definition for system jna from pathname jar:file:///usr/local/Cellar/abcl/1.8.0/libexec/abcl-contrib.jar!/mvn/jna.asd:
2021-04-13T10:19:11Z dim: that's during Retry loading FASL for #<ASDF/LISP-ACTION:CL-SOURCE-FILE "cl-containers/with-utilities" "dev" "utilities-integration">.
2021-04-13T10:20:44Z dim: (and the previous offender that required CFFI was cl+ssl, which is needed for pgloader by direct dependencies qmynd, drakma, sqlite, mssql, and quri)
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2021-04-13T10:49:30Z nij: fiddlerwoaroof: I watched the talk you mentioned yesterday. Thanks :)
2021-04-13T10:50:06Z nij: And I understand why guix/nix doesn't "really" solve the problem.
2021-04-13T10:52:50Z nij: I wonder if in guix we can make a software depends on multiple versions of a dependency, and call each function with name and the version they belong to.
2021-04-13T10:52:54Z Xach: dim: sometimes cffi is in defsystem-depends-on which complicates things a little
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2021-04-13T11:10:53Z dim: Xach: I managed to get a list of systems to avoid in :depends-on (using #-abcl) so that I could load pgloader in there, so that's good
2021-04-13T11:11:27Z dim: not good enough to load pgloader, though, so, no there yet, and running out of patience and time... gonna play with the kids instead
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2021-04-13T13:29:26Z nij: Hi :) Can I fetch my github cl system from ql:quickload? Or I have to `git clone` it manually to my ~/quicklisp?
2021-04-13T13:30:52Z Xach: nij: you must run git clone manually.
2021-04-13T13:31:10Z Xach: or, you could do it automatically, if you write the code to automate it!
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2021-04-13T13:47:08Z phoe: nij: I think roswell automates that
2021-04-13T13:47:20Z phoe: or you could use e.g. (ql:quickload :legit) to write a function that does that for you
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2021-04-13T14:36:52Z jmercouris: nij: or you could add your system to ultra lisp and then add the ultra lisp dist to your QL
2021-04-13T14:36:59Z jmercouris: Or you could use clpm
2021-04-13T14:37:08Z jmercouris: Or you could use qlot
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2021-04-13T15:10:39Z jcowan: beach: I worked out an answer to `read` allocating multiple empty strings.  Stash the reader macro for " and replace it with one that peeks to see if the next character is also quote.  If so, read the quote and return a unique empty string; if not, call the stashed macro.  The only thing this breaks is if you try to use eq(l) on an empty string.
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2021-04-13T15:12:55Z beach: That's an interesting solution.
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2021-04-13T15:24:24Z nij: clpm could accidentally eat my files xD
2021-04-13T15:24:32Z nij: lemme take a look at roswell
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2021-04-13T16:44:50Z dbotton: does anyone know of a "dictionary" or "thesaurus" for CL terms?
2021-04-13T16:45:13Z Bike: other than the clhs glossary? not that i can think of
2021-04-13T16:45:31Z dbotton: so let's say I wanted to say "member function" it would give the equivalent clos term
2021-04-13T16:45:51Z dbotton: ok
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2021-04-13T16:46:05Z Bike: oh, like for other kinds of jargon. yeah, i don't know anything like that. also i'm not sure there's any real equivalent to member functions?
2021-04-13T16:46:29Z dbotton: well it could give the aprox version or explain why not
2021-04-13T16:48:25Z luis: dbotton: is this close to what you're after? https://norvig.com/python-lisp.html
2021-04-13T16:48:25Z Bike: i suppose so.
2021-04-13T16:49:25Z dbotton: not really
2021-04-13T16:50:14Z dbotton: It is easy to look up method or generic function and then learn what that means in CL
2021-04-13T16:50:47Z dbotton: neither of which is the same as in most other languages with the same terms
2021-04-13T16:51:34Z dbotton: but if someone was coming from another language could explain the approximate mapping or why things are different
2021-04-13T16:52:17Z dbotton: I think would be helpful, maybe will try and work on. Would certainly help me be come more specific with my lisp terminology
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2021-04-13T16:53:18Z Bike: let's see, i suppose the main things that trip people up are CLOS, the call by value semantics, and the condition system
2021-04-13T16:53:59Z dbotton: those are main offenders yes, but when you drill down there are more more
2021-04-13T16:54:09Z dbotton: "slots"
2021-04-13T16:54:22Z Bike: ah, i suppose that is different.
2021-04-13T16:54:26Z Bike: probably packages also.
2021-04-13T16:55:05Z dbotton: also some comparisons between templates, macros, generics (ada), etc
2021-04-13T16:55:19Z dbotton: the list is fairly long
2021-04-13T16:55:40Z phoe: dbotton: you can emulate member functions with packages, in a way
2021-04-13T16:56:02Z phoe: (defclass foo:myclass ...) (defmethod foo:method1 ((myclass myclass) ...) ...) ...
2021-04-13T16:56:23Z dbotton: CL is itself the raw material of computer "language" and that lends itself to a different lingo in many ways
2021-04-13T16:56:26Z phoe: while exporting foo:myclass and foo:method1
2021-04-13T16:56:49Z phoe: but, yeah, that is not going to work very well for people who come from C++/Java/whatever single inheritance language there is
2021-04-13T16:56:52Z dbotton: of course can, that is what I mean by raw material
2021-04-13T16:57:19Z phoe: there's CLOS basics that need to be understood before becoming somewhat able with it, and the two CLOS chapters of PCL work decent with that
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2021-04-13T16:57:40Z nij: What could be wrong? I quickload a cl system (on guix), and this error shows up
2021-04-13T16:57:41Z nij: https://bpa.st/WCXQ
2021-04-13T16:58:13Z phoe: nij: ffi-types-unix.c:14:10: fatal error: lfp.h: No such file or directory
2021-04-13T16:58:14Z luis: lfp.h: No such file or directory seems pretty clear!
2021-04-13T16:58:17Z Bike: nij: you're missing libfixposix, i think?
2021-04-13T16:58:24Z phoe: iolib has a FFI dependen-- yes
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2021-04-13T16:59:21Z nij: O..k.. I need to find a way to get that header file on guix then..
2021-04-13T16:59:37Z Bike: https://guix.gnu.org/packages/libfixposix-0.4.3/
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2021-04-13T17:00:21Z nij: just curious.. how do you know that it's supposed in libfixposix?
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2021-04-13T17:00:41Z phoe: https://github.com/sionescu/iolib
2021-04-13T17:00:44Z phoe: "IOlib requires a C library named LibFixPOSIX - https://github.com/sionescu/libfixposix - and its headers in order to compile."
2021-04-13T17:00:45Z Bike: because i already knew iolib depended on libfixposix, and "lfp" is then an obvious initialism
2021-04-13T17:01:08Z nij: cool. lemme try
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2021-04-13T17:05:52Z Bike: maybe it owuld be possible for iolib to be a little clearer about it, though
2021-04-13T17:06:18Z nij: Yes, it works, and gives me another error -
2021-04-13T17:06:23Z nij: Unable to load foreign library (LIBFIXPOSIX). Error opening shared object "libfixposix.so": libfixposix.so: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory.
2021-04-13T17:06:42Z nij: I guess I'd have to teach sbcl (or cffi?) where to find the dynamical lib.
2021-04-13T17:06:56Z Bike: sbcl literally just calls dlopen
2021-04-13T17:07:12Z Bike: oh, if you just installed it you might need to call ldconfig or something
2021-04-13T17:07:36Z nij: I'm afraid it's more complicated on guix..
2021-04-13T17:08:01Z Bike: so i've heard. but what i mean is that it's the normal posix tools that are failing to work, rather than anything in lisp.
2021-04-13T17:08:06Z nij: Since the dynamic libraries aren't installed in the usual global path.
2021-04-13T17:08:16Z Bike: you could put a bypass in lisp, ofc
2021-04-13T17:08:25Z nij: bypass?
2021-04-13T17:08:56Z Bike: https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/cffi-manual.html#g_t_002aforeign_002dlibrary_002ddirectories_002a cffi lets you manually define where libraries are
2021-04-13T17:10:12Z nij: Yeah.. it's time for me to face this thread and follow it - and hopefully it will fix the problem - https://www.mail-archive.com/bug-guix@gnu.org/msg16190.html
2021-04-13T17:10:37Z nij: I just want to make sure that it's CFFI's problem before it - cuz in the error message there's no cffi.
2021-04-13T17:10:57Z Bike: yeah, cffi just calls sbcl, which just calls dlopen
2021-04-13T17:10:57Z nij: OH actually there is.. in the backtrace. OK, then I will
2021-04-13T17:11:10Z Bike: so the error message is probably originating from sbcl somewhere
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2021-04-13T18:21:27Z jasom: does SBCL have operations for efficiently calculating leading zeros or leading ones of a machine word?
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2021-04-13T18:22:53Z flip214: clhs INTEGER-LENGTH
2021-04-13T18:22:54Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_intege.htm
2021-04-13T18:22:56Z flip214: might help
2021-04-13T18:24:21Z jasom: aha, that will do
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2021-04-13T18:24:28Z flip214: sb-vm:n-fixnum-bits says 63 for me... shouldn't it be 62 significant bits?
2021-04-13T18:24:36Z jasom: will have to subtract
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2021-04-13T18:24:47Z jasom: flip214: I think there's a single bit for tagging, so nope?
2021-04-13T18:25:17Z flip214: jasom: I'd have thought 2 bits
2021-04-13T18:25:26Z flip214: clhs LOGCOUNT
2021-04-13T18:25:27Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_logcou.htm
2021-04-13T18:26:22Z flip214: sb-vm:n-machine-word-bits says 64
2021-04-13T18:26:47Z flip214: but yeah, sb-vm:n-fixnum-tag-bits is 1
2021-04-13T18:27:16Z jasom: (integer-length most-positive-fixnum) => 62, so given that there are negative fixnums, looks like 63
2021-04-13T18:27:48Z flip214: just wanted to paste that as well
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2021-04-13T18:28:14Z phoe: (integer-length most-negative-fixnum) ;=> 62 too
2021-04-13T18:28:23Z phoe: so looks like 1 bit tag, 1 bit sign, 62 bits left for digits
2021-04-13T18:28:30Z phoe: wait, no
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2021-04-13T18:28:48Z phoe: 1 bit tag, 62 bits encode the number in two's complement...
2021-04-13T18:28:55Z phoe thinks
2021-04-13T18:28:56Z Xach: it's an ancient trick to squeeze an extra bit
2021-04-13T18:29:21Z jasom: 1 bit tag, 63 bits encode the number in twos complement; (integer-length #xff) => 8, but clearly if you can go up to 255 with signed values it's 9 bits twos complement
2021-04-13T18:29:24Z flip214: phoe: no, you were right first time... 1 tag, 1 sign, 62 significant for both positive and negative
2021-04-13T18:29:40Z phoe: yes
2021-04-13T18:30:26Z flip214: the ol' compression trick - just remember where the 1 bits are, the 0 bits take care of themselves. applied recursively you end up with "1", which encompasses every possible meaning at once!
2021-04-13T18:30:36Z flip214: (and not 42, as some heretics might make you believe)
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2021-04-13T19:01:38Z splittist: "Ran 14; Passed 14; Failed 0". Yay for me.
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2021-04-13T19:04:09Z Shinmera: Heh, *exaggerated smug face* check this out: UAX-9 Total:  1'815'582 Passed: 1'815'582 (100%) Failed:         0 ( 0%)
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2021-04-13T19:05:36Z phoe: oh come on, check this out:
2021-04-13T19:05:43Z _death: for proper TDD brag you need to show that each failed first, and that the previous ones succeeded
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2021-04-13T19:07:50Z Shinmera: phoe: I'm trying, but it appears there is nothing to check out.
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2021-04-13T19:08:32Z phoe: Shinmera: hold on, it's still counting how many tests there are to run
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2021-04-13T19:09:05Z phoe: oh right, there are Heap exhausted, game over. tests to run
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2021-04-13T19:09:17Z phoe: oops
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2021-04-13T19:09:43Z Shinmera: Anyway, in case it wasn't obvious, there are 2 million tests for UAX9, but they're all auto-generated from unicod conformance data. :)
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2021-04-13T19:10:07Z Shinmera: And those in turn I'm sure are generated as well.
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2021-04-13T19:11:08Z aeth: put this in a macro and win the test war... (defun generate-tests (number-of-tests) (list* '5am:test 'lots-of-tests "Win the war of having the most tests" (loop :for i :from 0 :below number-of-tests :collect `(5am:is (= ,i ,i)))))
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2021-04-13T19:12:21Z aeth: (generate-tests 2000000) ; oops, ran out of memory in SBCL... looks like it needs to be optimized more
2021-04-13T19:12:36Z aeth: I guess I could also just increase the heap size!
2021-04-13T19:12:38Z phoe: that's kinda what I tried
2021-04-13T19:12:45Z phoe: oh! I didn't try heap size expansion
2021-04-13T19:12:51Z phoe quickly makes a 500G swap file
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2021-04-13T19:13:17Z Shinmera: the difference is that the uax tests are actually meaningful.
2021-04-13T19:13:25Z phoe: yes
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2021-04-13T19:14:02Z _death: aeth: that looks like a single (failing :) test to me
2021-04-13T19:14:05Z aeth: To be fair, there is a small chance that this will catch an implementation bug.
2021-04-13T19:15:13Z mfiano: Hey Lispers, gamedevs, and the uninitiated -- it's almost time: https://itch.io/jam/spring-lisp-game-jam-2021
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2021-04-13T19:15:50Z Shinmera: Hmm. If my current jam project wasn't aimed to be commercial I'd actually join for once.
2021-04-13T19:15:52Z Shinmera: Oh well!
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2021-04-13T19:16:48Z Josh_2: idk how to make a game so im out
2021-04-13T19:16:58Z Shinmera: you write the code
2021-04-13T19:17:01Z Shinmera: and then the thing moves
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2021-04-13T19:17:14Z contrapunctus: I've been looking into making a game for the last three days, but I'm new to both game dev and Common Lisp :\ (and not a very experienced programmer either)
2021-04-13T19:17:25Z Shinmera: sometimes the thing only moves in your mind, but it's still a game!
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2021-04-13T19:19:55Z mfiano: The point of the jam is not to make a game, oddly enough.
2021-04-13T19:22:45Z Shinmera: I made games in Fortran when I was 5, it's not hard to make /a/ game. It's hard to make a game with high production values and comparable to commercial games you might be envisioning.
2021-04-13T19:22:49Z mfiano: The idea is to practice. Even if you don't finish something, it is still desirable to submit it, as it gives you something to look back on to get a sense of your progression, and it also gives other people a base on which to work on, or ideas for their own future submissions.
2021-04-13T19:23:06Z Shinmera: Either way the point is you can make a game, just lower your expectations.
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2021-04-13T19:24:33Z Xach: I think like many endeavors it can be daunting to understand how to break down into completable individual pieces that, if you complete enough, results in a complete product/project
2021-04-13T19:24:56Z mfiano: So, you could just take an existing game, from past jams or GitHub etc, modify it, study it to learn how it works, and perhaps get a better idea of gamedev in general and some ideas you'd like to execute in the future.
2021-04-13T19:25:16Z Xach: (Which is part of the magic - when you see something and can instantly figure out how it's done, it is hard to be very delighted...)
2021-04-13T19:25:52Z mfiano: It's quite intimidating to try to make a game as a beginner in a public jam with a time limit. That is not the point at all though...the point is to learn and have fun :)
2021-04-13T19:27:59Z mfiano: Would like to see Xach try sometime :)
2021-04-13T19:28:37Z Xach: The desire to make games led to my interest in computers, but I don't enjoy games nearly as much as I used to :~(
2021-04-13T19:28:48Z mfiano: _death said he might too. I'd like to see longtime lispers that never participated try.
2021-04-13T19:29:01Z Xach: I'd like to try someday anyway though!
2021-04-13T19:29:08Z mfiano: Xach: Same here, I don't like playing games, but it is incredibly interesting to code them.
2021-04-13T19:29:21Z Shinmera: I can offer more assistance with Trial than usual this and next week if someone wants to give it a shot using it.
2021-04-13T19:29:45Z _death: mfiano: I did participate in a lisp game jam once :)
2021-04-13T19:29:53Z _death: mfiano: though I didn't see it on the lispgames wiki
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2021-04-13T19:30:03Z mfiano: _death: Oh I don't recall, just recall that you said you might this time :)
2021-04-13T19:30:06Z _death: mfiano: (ql:quickload "consix") (consix:game)
2021-04-13T19:30:13Z aeth: The games I liked the most (especially as a teenager) tended to be massive time sinks, so I just stay away from them entirely. And I don't try games that have patterns like that, especially if you have to log in daily/weekly (quite a few AAA games now), if you have things you need to constantly defend from raids (most survival games), etc.
2021-04-13T19:30:20Z aeth: I only play games that you can just jump in and jump out
2021-04-13T19:31:02Z aeth: So for me personally, it's not that I don't like games anymore, it's that I try not to like games too much anymore.
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2021-04-13T19:32:06Z _death: mfiano: also try (ql:quickload "towers") (towers:game)
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2021-04-13T19:32:22Z mfiano: _death: I see. 2010 was before my time as a host, when I was just a few years into Lisp at that point, and not sure I was doing games.
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2021-04-13T19:32:37Z _death: mfiano: but, right now I'm compiling aseprite.. so it's one step closer to participation
2021-04-13T19:32:40Z Xach: I like visual toys and interactivity, so maybe that would be my way in...
2021-04-13T19:32:52Z mfiano: Xach: go for it!
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2021-04-13T19:34:49Z mfiano: I'd just like to see more COmmon Lispers participate. Too many Lua/Fennel Lisp games :)
2021-04-13T19:35:05Z Xach: boo
2021-04-13T19:35:19Z Xach: 500 meg binary or bust
2021-04-13T19:35:21Z mfiano: I've thought about making the first of the bi-annual jams CL only, but then I don't think we'd get anyone but borodust :)
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2021-04-13T19:40:16Z Nilby: I already have 7 unfinished lisp games, and the 3 that I finished were very un-fun, so I'm not sure working on games as an anti-burnout tactic has worked.
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2021-04-13T19:44:10Z Nilby: Presumably results would be better with intrinsic motivation, rather than boredom with other things.
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2021-04-13T19:50:36Z _death: mfiano: I also have some tic-80 w/ ecl thing.. it was some years ago, but maybe someone wants to pick it up
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2021-04-13T19:52:48Z mfiano: Maybe, I have never messed with tic-80 myself
2021-04-13T19:52:56Z mfiano: Nor ecl for that matter
2021-04-13T19:53:00Z Xach: tic-80 is nice. very very short feedback loop.
2021-04-13T19:53:14Z _death: well https://github.com/death/TIC-80 is the repo
2021-04-13T19:53:30Z Bike: quick question - i was looking at tic-80 before - it's not an actual virtual machine is it? like it doesn't have a bytecode ISA or something, you can write code in whatever
2021-04-13T19:53:31Z _death: I even added paren highlighting ;)
2021-04-13T19:53:58Z mfiano: Do you have to cherry pick through 1527 commits? :)
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2021-04-13T19:54:06Z _death: Bike: from what I remember it just embedded a js/lua engine
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2021-04-13T19:54:24Z Bike: ok yeah, that's what it looked like. i think i had it in my head that it was an actual VM
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2021-04-13T19:54:40Z luis: Has anyone built a Docker container with ALL THE LISPS?
2021-04-13T19:55:58Z phoe: luis: https://common-lisp.net/project/cl-docker-images/ ?
2021-04-13T19:56:52Z _death: mfiano: I've not kept up with tic-80.. it was just when it was made public (hence only 60 commits in that repo).. it seemed pretty functional back then though
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2021-04-13T19:57:44Z luis: phoe: 5 Lisps is not all the Lisps but it's a rather nice start!
2021-04-13T20:00:13Z mfiano: All the lisps is a lot of lisps
2021-04-13T20:00:22Z mfiano: Forget TIC-80, need the TI-80 too :)
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2021-04-13T20:07:32Z luis: Hmm, although the site only lists CMUCL, ECL, SBCL, ABCL and CCL, https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/asdf/asdf/-/blob/master/gitlab-ci.yml suggests there's a CLISP image too.
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2021-04-13T20:13:02Z nij: Weird.. in my stumpwm config, I have (when (ignore-errors (ql:quickload :some-package)) (progn (defcommand ..)))
2021-04-13T20:13:22Z nij: So when :some-package fails to load, the progn block doesn't get evaluated.
2021-04-13T20:13:31Z Bike: but you get a read error anyway?
2021-04-13T20:13:37Z nij: However, defcommand does get evaluated! And the other sub-blocks do not!
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2021-04-13T20:13:52Z nij: Could it be that defcommand is a macro that leaks? Is it even possible?
2021-04-13T20:13:52Z Bike: oh. dang, my crystal ball is off today
2021-04-13T20:14:31Z Bike: leaks as in modifies the surrounding context in this way? no, t hat's not possible.
2021-04-13T20:14:40Z Bike: what do you mean by "the other sub-blocks"
2021-04-13T20:14:43Z Bike: the other forms in the progn?
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2021-04-13T20:19:13Z jasom: my brain is not working today.  How does one print a zero-padded integer with format?
2021-04-13T20:19:33Z Bike: "3,'0d" i think?
2021-04-13T20:19:49Z jasom: Bike: that gives e.g. 0-3 for negative 3
2021-04-13T20:20:05Z Bike: huh, so it does.
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2021-04-13T20:23:39Z _death: you could do something yucky like (format t "~A~3,'0D" (if (minusp x) "-" "") (abs x))
2021-04-13T20:24:16Z Bike: yeah, it doesn't seem like there's a ~d incantation here
2021-04-13T20:24:49Z jasom: _death: that gives the behavior like C's "%.3d" but still not like C's "%03d" (the former prints 3 digits, the later 3 characters)
2021-04-13T20:25:21Z Bike: throw in v and subtract 1 from the digit count if it's negative
2021-04-13T20:25:26Z Bike: really sucks at that point though
2021-04-13T20:25:37Z jasom: this might be a job for ~/
2021-04-13T20:25:57Z luis: https://github.com/splittist/printfcl *runs away*
2021-04-13T20:26:01Z splittist: (printfcl:printf "%03d" thing)
2021-04-13T20:26:07Z splittist: (:
2021-04-13T20:26:07Z Xach: lol
2021-04-13T20:31:13Z Krystof: do you have a compiler macro to turn constant-printf-string printfs into constant-format-string format controls?
2021-04-13T20:35:34Z splittist: Krystof: no. The forthcoming scanfcl does compile its control string, though.
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2021-04-13T20:40:31Z Krystof: (format t "~:[~3,'0D~;-~2,'0D~]" (minusp x) (abs x)) ; for what it's worth
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2021-04-13T20:41:30Z luis chuckles
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2021-04-13T21:00:57Z lotuseater: i learned today for what SYMBOL-MACROLET not to use :) had often something like (aref e k) in a function with even SETF and thought, oh hm, so use (symbol-macrolet ((e_k '(aref e k))) ...)
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2021-04-13T21:01:07Z lotuseater: but labeling readmacros did it then ^^
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2021-04-13T21:07:01Z _death: it's fine to use that.. except that extraneous quote
2021-04-13T21:07:44Z lotuseater: ah i thought it has to be a symbolic expression
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2021-04-13T21:11:18Z lotuseater: oh cool thanks. sometimes those are really useful
2021-04-13T21:12:55Z lotuseater: but hm, the other thing was, translating an algorithm with three closures and that use same parameter names as declared for lexical scope in the main algorithm ^^ how does FLET handle that?
2021-04-13T21:14:04Z lotuseater: being more concrete, it was this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobi_eigenvalue_algorithm#Algorithm
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2021-04-13T21:17:01Z _death: not sure what you're asking.. this pseudocode looks like it could use some factoring.. I'd start by pulling those functions out
2021-04-13T21:17:59Z _death: that makes it easier to test things in the repl
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2021-04-13T21:20:54Z Shinmera: Or just use one of a bunch of matrix libraries that can already compute eigenvalues
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2021-04-13T21:33:38Z lotuseater: yes it does need refactoring :D
2021-04-13T21:33:59Z lotuseater: Shinmera: that's not the point :)
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2021-04-13T22:08:41Z ioa: Hi everyone, if you're interested in talking about the ELS, SAL9000 made a room for it: #elsconf
2021-04-13T22:09:37Z ioa: Especially the presence of marco heisig (no bouncer? I forgot his nick), easye and phoe would be very much appreciated, as they have all the info. :)
2021-04-13T22:09:59Z phoe: gasp! #els2021 now has competition
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2021-04-13T22:11:04Z ioa: phoe, oh, I didn't know about #els2021, there was a discussion about this years els in the old room els2020, and SAL9000 made elsconf so we don't create a room every year.
2021-04-13T22:11:16Z ioa: *year's
2021-04-13T22:12:01Z phoe: sure, sounds good! let's discuss the channel setup when everyone (including me) is awake tomorrow
2021-04-13T22:12:24Z ioa: sounds good, good night!
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2021-04-14T00:38:00Z nij: Oh no Bike sorry I missed your message as my friend called. Feeling bad :(
2021-04-14T00:38:25Z nij: >> Weird.. in my stumpwm config, I have (when (ignore-errors (ql:quickload :some-package)) (progn (defcommand ..)))
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2021-04-14T00:39:01Z nij: When :some-package is not presented, (defcommand) was still evaluated, leading to an error.
2021-04-14T00:39:25Z nij: I was wondering if defcommand is some macro that might "leak".
2021-04-14T00:40:18Z nij: So I did put (progn (setf test 123) (defcommand ... something that will fail))..
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2021-04-14T00:41:18Z nij: The package :some-package was not presented, so (progn..) shouldn't be evaluated (indeed, TEST wasn't set to 123). However, (defcommand..) was evaluated and led to another error.
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2021-04-14T01:03:37Z jasom: is it possible to sign-extend a number, given a desired bitwidth? i.e. treat a positive number as being the unsigned representation of a twos-complement value?
2021-04-14T01:03:48Z jasom: so e.g. (foo #xff 8) => -1
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2021-04-14T01:08:06Z moon-child: (defun foo (n b) (let ((m (1- (expt 2 (1- b))))) (if (< n m) n (- m n)))
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2021-04-14T01:08:42Z jasom: right, but nothing builtin for that?
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2021-04-14T01:09:06Z pagnol: morning
2021-04-14T01:09:07Z moon-child: err, s/</<=/
2021-04-14T01:09:34Z jasom: moon-child: or just < without the 1-, but then you'd have a bignum at machine-word sizes
2021-04-14T01:09:59Z moon-child: well, then you would need (- m n 1)
2021-04-14T01:10:09Z moon-child: there's nothing as far as I know.  Txr has it apparently https://www.nongnu.org/txr/txr-manpage.html#N-026F9F46
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2021-04-14T01:23:17Z jasom: Here's what I had, FWIW: (defun foo (x width) (if (logbitp (1- width) x) (- x (ash 1 width)) x))
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2021-04-14T01:26:04Z jasom: though on reflection, this is probably clearer: (defun foo (x width) (if (logbitp (1- width) x) (dpb x (byte width 0) -1) x))
2021-04-14T01:26:32Z mfiano: jasom: https://gist.github.com/mfiano/953226eee589cb20a54b6bf705962a01
2021-04-14T01:26:50Z mfiano: I'd be impressed if you can do this more efficiently. stassats helped me write that years ago
2021-04-14T01:26:57Z mfiano: (with proper type annotations of course)
2021-04-14T01:27:40Z jasom: ah, uses a multiply to avoid a branch.  Probably a good call on any processor made in the last 20 years or so
2021-04-14T01:27:47Z moon-child: mfiano: sounds like a compiler issue :P
2021-04-14T01:28:58Z moon-child: assuming 'width' is hardware assisted, it should be no more than 3 instructions
2021-04-14T01:29:18Z moon-child: (maybe a couple extra if you want to avoid a branch, but predictable branches are übercheap)
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2021-04-14T01:32:12Z jasom: mfiano: same # instructions between that and mine, with mine having a branch
2021-04-14T01:32:24Z jasom: s/instructions/bytes
2021-04-14T01:32:48Z jasom: mine is fewer instructions
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2021-04-14T01:36:11Z jasom: mfiano: yours is about 2x as fast on a quick benchmark despite being more instructions; not too surprising since the sign bit branch is completly random on my test-case
2021-04-14T01:36:15Z mfiano: Code size is not a really meaningful metric
2021-04-14T01:36:37Z jasom: mfiano: I suspect mine would be faster if the test corpus was entirely positive or entirely negative
2021-04-14T01:37:00Z jasom: just tested, and it's indeed slightly faster
2021-04-14T01:37:21Z mfiano: Also depends on the register allocator
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2021-04-14T01:37:47Z jasom: in this test case there were plenty of registers so it wouldn't have discovered that
2021-04-14T01:37:54Z jasom: gtg, dinner
2021-04-14T01:38:12Z mfiano: SBCL will register-allocate lexivars if it deems it is good to do so
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2021-04-14T02:03:35Z pagnol: Has anyone here used Postmodern a lot? I only recently found out about it and it seems like the ideal way to interface with a relational db to me, but I'm wondering if there are downsides that only become apparent after a while.
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2021-04-14T02:09:40Z nij: Hello! I'm trying out qlot. In its official github repo, it says I can get it by (ql:quickload :qlot). But that doesn't seem to generate the binary `qlot` (for cli usage) directly. Did I miss any step? https://github.com/fukamachi/qlot
2021-04-14T02:10:41Z Bike: well, in the readme it mentions that the roswell install, introduces the shell command unlike the quicklisp install
2021-04-14T02:11:14Z Bike: i don't see any obvious explanation of how you get the shell command if installed via quicklisp
2021-04-14T02:11:43Z nij: Erg :-( ok.. yeah I thought there might be an easy way.
2021-04-14T02:11:51Z nij: I'll have to learn rowell then..
2021-04-14T02:12:16Z Bike: there's a makefile. maybe you can just do make
2021-04-14T02:12:36Z Bike: it looks like said makefile just does (asdf:make :qlot)
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2021-04-14T02:16:04Z nij: very weird, under my .quicklisp/dist.../qlot there's no makefile
2021-04-14T02:16:12Z nij: I should download it from github directly, right?
2021-04-14T02:16:31Z Bike: ?\_(?)_/?
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2021-04-14T02:17:51Z nij: \ ?_? /
2021-04-14T02:18:13Z nij: (this emoji seems confusing and bursting out tears. love it)
2021-04-14T02:19:02Z Bike: hm, something on my end butchered the encoding. sad
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2021-04-14T02:45:01Z jasom: mfiano: I beat your version
2021-04-14T02:45:39Z mfiano: Like I siad, I removed the optimizations from mine because I don't know your input
2021-04-14T02:46:05Z jasom: mfiano: sb-c::mask-signed-fied
2021-04-14T02:47:14Z mfiano: If that works for you, fair enoguh. As for me, I wrote Common Lisp code, else I'd be using blub if I wrote code for one implementation
2021-04-14T02:49:43Z jasom: hmm, it looks much better in the assembly but is testing out as 50% slower.  That's quite odd.
2021-04-14T02:50:25Z mfiano: the statistical profiler will likely be showing the foreign syscalls that slow it down.
2021-04-14T02:50:51Z jasom: There are literally 2 instructions before the CLC/POP RBP
2021-04-14T02:51:17Z jasom: MOVSX RDX, DL and SHL RDX 1
2021-04-14T02:51:40Z jasom: Is movsx super slow or something?
2021-04-14T02:52:13Z moon-child: https://www.agner.org/optimize/instruction_tables.pdf nope
2021-04-14T02:56:26Z jasom: ah, I just had the value/width backwards since it was opposite of sign-extend.
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2021-04-14T02:57:22Z jasom: the mask-signed-field version is too fast for me to measure with this benchmark (summing a list of integers vs summing it sign-extended differ by less than the noise)
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2021-04-14T02:59:36Z mfiano: it's roughly an order of a magnitude and a half faster
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2021-04-14T03:07:37Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-04-14T03:08:06Z mfiano: Hello beach
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2021-04-14T03:09:05Z remby: In sbcl, this seems to be an error: (setf x 10). It says x is an undefined variable.
2021-04-14T03:09:17Z moon-child: yes
2021-04-14T03:09:23Z no-defun-allowed: Yes.
2021-04-14T03:09:28Z moon-child: you need to define or bind variables before you assign to them
2021-04-14T03:10:09Z mfiano: It's a warning, not an error, but implementations aren't required to do so
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2021-04-14T03:11:28Z remby: I was reading practical common lisp and it gave me the impression you could do this, but I misunderstood the example.
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2021-04-14T03:12:03Z remby: right near the assignment header, what do you think they meant to say? http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/variables.html
2021-04-14T03:12:37Z mfiano: Exactly what they say
2021-04-14T03:12:41Z mfiano: "Once you've created a binding, you can do two things with it: get the current value and set it to a new value."
2021-04-14T03:13:02Z remby: oh, duh
2021-04-14T03:13:09Z remby facepalms
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2021-04-14T03:13:23Z mfiano: The book should be read linearly
2021-04-14T03:13:29Z mfiano: The previous topic discussing binding
2021-04-14T03:13:43Z remby: yeah with defparameter and defar
2021-04-14T03:13:49Z mfiano: and more
2021-04-14T03:14:05Z mfiano: That whole chapter is about ways to bind and use variables
2021-04-14T03:14:11Z mfiano: defparameter and defvar are but two ways
2021-04-14T03:14:53Z remby: I read the entire page, but I skimmed over the let binding
2021-04-14T03:15:19Z mfiano: I would advise against skimming. That book only really has value if you read it linearly and perform all of the practicals
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2021-04-14T03:19:30Z nij: Here's the example what I meant by that the stumpwm macro "defcommand" might be leaking.. dunno why it's the case - https://bpa.st/JOXQ . It stays in the second argument of #'when, and it should not be evaluated. But it is...
2021-04-14T03:19:37Z nij: Could a lisp macro be leaking like this?
2021-04-14T03:23:02Z Bike: no. it couldn't be.
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2021-04-14T03:23:23Z Bike: are you sure you have the situation right? like, for example, could something else have defined the record! command?
2021-04-14T03:23:44Z nij: no.. it's pointing to that exact file. and when i add something, the indicating line changes accordingly.
2021-04-14T03:24:49Z Bike: well i don't know what to tell you. that is not how lisp works. the defcommand is not actually being evaluated.
2021-04-14T03:25:00Z Bike: also, the reason you're getting this error is that lisp tries to read the entire form before evaluating it
2021-04-14T03:25:03Z beach: nij: What do you mean by "#'when"?
2021-04-14T03:25:10Z Bike: so it will read recording:prompt-recording before :recording is quickloaded
2021-04-14T03:25:14Z Bike: presumably the when macro
2021-04-14T03:25:19Z nij: beach: the when macro
2021-04-14T03:25:20Z nij: yeah
2021-04-14T03:25:33Z beach: nij: That's a strange way of indicating it.
2021-04-14T03:25:59Z nij: why? -- CL-USER> #'when #<FUNCTION (:MACRO WHEN) {1000DA2A3B}>
2021-04-14T03:26:20Z no-defun-allowed: Try it on Clozure.
2021-04-14T03:26:43Z nij: Bike, well, but that form shouldn't even been touched, right?
2021-04-14T03:26:44Z Bike: it is an error to use function on a symbol that denotes a macro or special form
2021-04-14T03:26:48Z nij: Cuz the predicate fails.
2021-04-14T03:27:06Z Bike: the form that is read is the _entire_ form
2021-04-14T03:27:07Z no-defun-allowed: ...or ECL, or ABCL, or CLISP even.
2021-04-14T03:27:08Z nij: Bike: how would you address a macro or a special form?
2021-04-14T03:27:14Z no-defun-allowed: "The macro WHEN"
2021-04-14T03:27:20Z Bike: it reads the whole thing at once. (when ... (recording:prompt-recording) ...)
2021-04-14T03:27:44Z Bike: and yes, you could just say "the macro WHEN". to get the macro function you would do (macro-function 'when)
2021-04-14T03:27:54Z nij: Bike: if it's just READing.. then it should read RECORDING:PROMPT-RECORDING as a symbol, without issue, no?
2021-04-14T03:28:05Z Bike: the reader cannot handle symbols from unknown packages
2021-04-14T03:28:28Z Bike: because packages can use other packages, it is not clear what package a qualified symbol actually belongs to until the package is defined
2021-04-14T03:28:44Z nij: OH!
2021-04-14T03:28:49Z nij: Yay thanks that clarifies!
2021-04-14T03:28:53Z nij: CL-USER> (when nil h:hiiii); Debugger entered on #<SB-INT:SIMPLE-READER-PACKAGE-ERROR "Package ~A does not exist." {1001A9BBD3}>
2021-04-14T03:29:03Z nij: Now I understand. Thank you very much :)
2021-04-14T03:29:03Z Bike: mhm
2021-04-14T03:29:25Z Bike: i don't know what's going on with the defcommand thing though. all i can guess is you have persistent state between trials messing things up.
2021-04-14T03:29:39Z nij: no then defcommand isn't the problem
2021-04-14T03:29:42Z nij: it's not evaluated
2021-04-14T03:29:47Z nij: my problem was that error
2021-04-14T03:29:53Z Bike: ok, great.
2021-04-14T03:29:57Z nij: then .. how to workaround this?
2021-04-14T03:30:13Z nij: on some machine i don't expect the package to be loaded correctly
2021-04-14T03:30:23Z nij: if that's the case, I don't intend to load config for it
2021-04-14T03:30:24Z Bike: you could do some annoying things with find-symbol, like (funcall (find-symbol "PROMPT-RECORDING" "RECORDING"))
2021-04-14T03:30:40Z Bike: then the symbol won't actually be looked up  until the form is evaluated, so the reader won't complain
2021-04-14T03:31:08Z nij: I mean.. only want that config when the package is loaded correctly
2021-04-14T03:31:12Z Bike: right
2021-04-14T03:31:15Z nij: otherwise, skip that piece of config
2021-04-14T03:31:29Z Bike: so i mean if you do the find-symbol thing, it will do what you're trying to do here, i think
2021-04-14T03:31:35Z Bike: none of that code will be evaluated if the quickload failed
2021-04-14T03:31:49Z Bike: but the reader won't complain
2021-04-14T03:31:54Z nij: I need to write recording:prompt-recording somewhere in the code, no?
2021-04-14T03:32:00Z Bike: No
2021-04-14T03:32:10Z Bike: Try (find-symbol "PROMPT-RECORDING" "RECORDING") in the repl
2021-04-14T03:32:15Z Bike: or (find-symbol "MAX" "CL") or something
2021-04-14T03:32:20Z Bike: you get the symbol back.
2021-04-14T03:32:33Z Bike: it will look it up at runtime, rather than at read time
2021-04-14T03:32:54Z Bike: so, if the quickload fails, the find-symbol will not be evaluated, so the symbol is not looked up, so there's no problem
2021-04-14T03:34:04Z nij: and if it succeeds, the find-symbol will return the right symbol, which will in turn be evaluated?
2021-04-14T03:34:09Z nij: and the config is loaded?
2021-04-14T03:34:44Z Bike: uhhuh.
2021-04-14T03:35:20Z nij: ((find-symbol "+" "CL") 1 1) => error
2021-04-14T03:35:22Z nij: no..
2021-04-14T03:36:01Z mfiano: This isn't scheme
2021-04-14T03:36:03Z Bike: funcall
2021-04-14T03:36:14Z Bike: did you see the funcall? when i write things i mean them to be involved
2021-04-14T03:36:21Z Bike: (funcall (find-symbol "+" "CL") 1 1)
2021-04-14T03:36:33Z nij: OHOHok of course
2021-04-14T03:36:45Z nij: thanks! learned a lot :)
2021-04-14T03:36:54Z nij: I was quite confused. Now i'm fine!
2021-04-14T03:36:57Z Bike: glad to be of assistance
2021-04-14T03:37:01Z nij: <3 GN
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2021-04-14T04:14:10Z contrapunctus: I'm writing something dealing with vCard data, and it seems the only result for the only Lisp library for it is here. The link is dead and I can't find the project anywhere else :\ https://old.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/qk3ag/clvcard_parsing_vcard_with_common_lisp/
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2021-04-14T04:57:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: contrapunctus: I've recently used soiree ( https://github.com/slyrus/soiree ) for this sort of thing
2021-04-14T04:58:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: I ended up writing my own ics parser, though, because I wanted a streaming-style parser, rather than instantiating objects for the whole calendar in memory
2021-04-14T04:59:06Z contrapunctus: fiddlerwoaroof: whoa, thanks a lot
2021-04-14T05:01:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: If you need to handle ics files only, I have this: https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/lisp-sandbox/blob/master/ical-parser.lisp
2021-04-14T05:02:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: I might actually have something more "production quality": this is in my experiments repo
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2021-04-14T05:04:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/aion/blob/master/build-tree.lisp
2021-04-14T05:05:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: This project is my more fleshed-out version
2021-04-14T05:05:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: No docs yet (sorry), but this is an example of the protocol I've designed to process the stream of data from an iCalendar format file
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2021-04-14T05:06:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: I also have a version that generates an sqlite db because I really like https://datasette.io for data exploration
2021-04-14T05:07:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: ^ contrapunctus
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2021-04-14T06:33:25Z Shinmera: There's also my https://shinmera.github.io/iclendar
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2021-04-14T06:40:37Z contrapunctus: Shinmera: I figured I'd at least update the licenses for your projects on awesome-cl - and there are so many! Talk about prolific 🤯
2021-04-14T06:41:33Z Shinmera: too many, some would argue
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2021-04-14T07:02:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: Shinmera: I guess I should have checked your repos first :)
2021-04-14T07:02:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: I made the mistake of just checking Cliki
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2021-04-14T07:03:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: Although, I think your library is the inverse of mine: I only support parsing ics, you only seem to support generating it
2021-04-14T07:04:06Z Shinmera: Yes, I never got around to implementing parsing.
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2021-04-14T07:05:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: I consulted the RFC for mine, but I didn't implement everything: I implemented what was necessary to parse my work calendar and a couple random calendars I found online
2021-04-14T07:05:42Z Shinmera: As usual with RFCs the spec is absolutely insane
2021-04-14T07:05:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah
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2021-04-14T07:07:04Z Shinmera: iclendar has the advantage that it actually defines all types and relations in code already, so it could become a strict parser at some point.
2021-04-14T07:07:12Z contrapunctus: Shinmera: some clarification - `deploy` still seems to be Artistic License - is this deliberate? Also, qtools is zlib, correct? For some reason GitHub doesn't seem to recognize it in that specific case.
2021-04-14T07:07:51Z Shinmera: ah, damn, must have forgotten to update deploy somehow, let me fix that.
2021-04-14T07:08:24Z Shinmera: everything should be zlib. if it isn't there's a bug :)
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2021-04-14T07:09:09Z Shinmera: I did the update through a script back then... wonder how it missed deploy.
2021-04-14T07:09:58Z contrapunctus: Shinmera: ^^ ditto https://github.com/Shinmera/definitions
2021-04-14T07:13:05Z Shinmera: Ah, I was on a branch for that one. At least that explains that lol
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2021-04-14T07:14:22Z Shinmera: Fixed both, thanks.
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2021-04-14T07:35:44Z contrapunctus: Glad to be of help ^^
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2021-04-14T07:36:55Z lukego: anyone else using Lisp/sbcl from nixpkgs or am I the only such fool around here?
2021-04-14T07:37:36Z jackdaniel: s/fool/visionary/ ;-)
2021-04-14T07:38:37Z contrapunctus: lukego: I might be joining you in that soon.
2021-04-14T07:38:47Z contrapunctus: (...but on NixOS.)
2021-04-14T07:38:54Z lukego: my condolences to you but misery loves company :)
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2021-04-14T07:40:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: lukego: I'm using sbcl mostly from nix
2021-04-14T07:40:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: on darwin
2021-04-14T07:41:04Z lukego: I was just starting to spell out my current problem but I think I arrived at the solution - or at least a next step - in mid-sorrow :)
2021-04-14T07:41:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: Although, I sort of think I prefer my old way of manually building sbcl and putting it in ~/sbcl
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2021-04-14T07:42:08Z lukego: I made an overlay to tweak the flags that sbcl is built with and I'm going nuts trying to understand why this new sbcl isn't being used. but now I realize that the one that is being used is from my user environment. so I know where to look for a problem now
2021-04-14T07:42:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, on my work laptop I use home-manager to manage all that, and just install from my overlay to the user environment
2021-04-14T07:44:17Z lukego: Nix has a lot of new features and workflows but I somehow keep using the ones from way back when I first installed it, when "nix pills" was the state of the art
2021-04-14T07:44:38Z lukego: I have heard the term "home manager" before but don't know what it means :)
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2021-04-14T07:44:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: When I started this job a  couple months ago, I decided to rebuild my setup
2021-04-14T07:45:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: home-manager is pretty cool, you have a home.nix and it generates a lot of the dotfiles I used to manage in my dotfiles github repo.  It also lets me pick which packages get installed in the user environment
2021-04-14T07:45:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: Which I like, because I don't want to mess with the rest of my mac's system
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2021-04-14T07:46:30Z lukego: I'm in a bit of a "lone hacker" mode. The nix expression for my Lisp program actually installs a lot of related stuff e.g. Emacs with a bunch of packages and their configurations.
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2021-04-14T07:46:52Z lukego: I'm using ql2nix and that's treating me pretty well
2021-04-14T07:47:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: Cool, I've been meaning to try that
2021-04-14T07:47:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: I find that I want all my dependency management to be initiated from the REPL, though
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2021-04-14T07:47:57Z lukego: yeah interesting, having Lisp wear the pants and dump out nix expressions could be a nice style
2021-04-14T07:48:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, I only install sbcl through nix: when I absolutely need to pin versions, I use legit to clone the relevant repos and configure ASDF
2021-04-14T07:50:10Z lukego: I have a Nix expression with a list [ "1am" "alexandria" ... ] of all quicklisp packages that I want installed and then it arranges for them all to be built and ready when I start sbcl
2021-04-14T07:50:36Z contrapunctus: lukego: sounds like you want Guix 🤔
2021-04-14T07:50:46Z lukego: contrapunctus: have been meaning to look at it one day :)
2021-04-14T07:50:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: I like to pretend that I have a lispos
2021-04-14T07:51:04Z lukego: I want everything pinned by default though, that's the appeal of Nix for me
2021-04-14T07:51:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I've also grown to dislike version pinning from Javascript
2021-04-14T07:52:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'd rather be forced to fix my code when the deps update rather than slowly dig myself into a huge pit as the world moves away from me
2021-04-14T07:52:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: If a library breaks my code too many times, I just ban it
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2021-04-14T07:54:19Z splittist: What's my best bet for a quick something I can display (possibly elaborately) styled text on  from lisp, on Windows 10?
2021-04-14T07:54:41Z moon-child: browser? :P
2021-04-14T07:54:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: spinneret + hunchentoot?
2021-04-14T07:54:59Z lukego: fiddlerwoaroof: yeah. I regularly update to the latest of everything, i.e. refresh my nix distro from the latest quicklisp, but at least I decide when to do that and I can easily rollback if there's a problem that I'm not in the mood to debug.
2021-04-14T07:58:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: lukego: I've sort of been radicalized with the way I can just load and run 40 year old code in CL
2021-04-14T07:58:37Z splittist: Good point. And now I change the requirements: And interact with the text with keyboard and (probably) mouse.
2021-04-14T07:58:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: websocket-driver
2021-04-14T07:59:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think doing that from the browser is the goal of this: https://github.com/rabbibotton/clog
2021-04-14T07:59:28Z lukego: fiddlerwoaroof: I'm likewise radicalized by the old days when a "weekend of lisp hacking" would just mean getting a compatible set of dependencies from cvs :)
2021-04-14T08:00:13Z lukego: (but more genreally I basically stopped using dependencies of any kind many years ago, and then started again when I found nix and could police them. but I digress.)
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2021-04-14T08:05:24Z lukego: Speaking of errors when rebuilding dependencies, I'm getting an error on compiling screamer now that I didn't have before, with two warnings and one error. I /think/ that the error is a -Werror kind of situation i.e. the compiler didn't find an error but asdf errored when it noticed the warnings (with a backtrace instead of an explanation.) plausible?
2021-04-14T08:06:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: lukego: line 75ff here is sort of my sketch of an in-cl way to do something nix-like: https://git.fiddlerwoaroof.com/u/edwlan/git-systems.git/blob/master/git-systems.lisp#L75
2021-04-14T08:06:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't think I've ever seen that happen
2021-04-14T08:07:03Z lukego: (and for all my talk of rolling back inconvenient breakages I can't actually do that because I didn't check-in my previous nix snapshots of quicklisp packages. so um a valuable learning experience about missed steps in my workflow)
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2021-04-14T08:07:45Z Nilby: splittist: Unfortunately the bar for such a thing is very high now that it's expected to handle all the worlds languages and render super fast in a GPU.
2021-04-14T08:07:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: Screamer loads fine for me
2021-04-14T08:08:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: sbcl 2.1.3.71-f98bf1148 on arm64, http://beta.quicklisp.org/archive/screamer/2019-07-10/screamer-20190710-git.tgz
2021-04-14T08:08:36Z lukego: seems like asdf:*compile-file-failure-behaviour* default behavior on SBCL will error from ASDF if the compiler warns
2021-04-14T08:09:01Z Shinmera: splittist: qtools should still work fine on windows.
2021-04-14T08:09:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: lukego: *compile-file-warnings-behaviour* I think is the equivalent to -Werror
2021-04-14T08:09:44Z lukego: hey it is actually kind of nice that -Werror is the default. that motivates me to actually dig into problems knowing that other people aren't just leaving them :). here's the screamer warning, I'll dig into it now https://gist.github.com/lukego/1da425f16384bb53f2c416c49d5b6ecd
2021-04-14T08:09:47Z splittist: Shinmera: I get "debugger invoked on a SB-KERNEL::UNDEFINED-ALIEN-FUNCTION-ERROR ...  The alien function "sw_find_class" is undefined."
2021-04-14T08:09:56Z Shinmera: :(
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2021-04-14T08:10:20Z lukego: (though if I need to patch screamer that's a problem because my current nix workflow doesn't really support anything but upstream projects from quicklisp..)
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2021-04-14T08:12:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is there a good library for extracting only interesting content from an HTML page
2021-04-14T08:12:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: e.g. a readability type thing?
2021-04-14T08:13:01Z lukego: this looks like a pretty clear cut bug in screamer:
2021-04-14T08:13:02Z lukego:              (if (vectorp sequence)
2021-04-14T08:13:02Z lukego:                  (dolist (element sequence)
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2021-04-14T08:13:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah
2021-04-14T08:14:05Z jackdaniel: it  is written for a special-purpose implementations that represent vectors as lists :)
2021-04-14T08:14:22Z lukego: sounds like something I would do ..
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2021-04-14T08:14:37Z asarch: One stupid question: if I had this (:id 30 :username "asarch" :password "xxx-yyy") I could easily get the username with (getf user :username)
2021-04-14T08:14:50Z Shinmera: splittist: if you add a :depends-on for qt-libs first, does that work?
2021-04-14T08:14:55Z jackdaniel: that's not a question
2021-04-14T08:15:36Z asarch: But what if I would have a list of lists with n elements ((:id 1 :username "foo" :password "...") (:id 2 :username "bar" :password "...") ... (:id n :username "baz" :password "...")), how could I easily get the username of the n element?
2021-04-14T08:16:15Z jackdaniel: (getf (nth n your-list) :user)
2021-04-14T08:16:26Z asarch: Do I need to traverse the entire list every time I want a specific element of them?
2021-04-14T08:16:28Z jackdaniel: s/:user/:username/
2021-04-14T08:16:42Z asarch: Bingo!
2021-04-14T08:16:53Z asarch: Thank you! Thank you very much! :-)
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2021-04-14T08:17:34Z asarch: But what if I don't know the position of the record?
2021-04-14T08:17:36Z jackdaniel: if you store users on the list and you are not caching results (or add other optimizations) then yes, you traverse the list
2021-04-14T08:17:46Z jackdaniel: then how do you know which username do you want to get?
2021-04-14T08:18:43Z splittist: Shinmera: doesn't qtools already :depends-on qt-libs? The error arises when trying to load the examples.
2021-04-14T08:18:45Z jackdaniel: (find "foo" your-list :key (lambda (o) (getf o :username)) :test #'string=)
2021-04-14T08:18:50Z asarch: All I know is its id, let's say it is 324 and the list is from a query
2021-04-14T08:18:52Z jackdaniel: is one way
2021-04-14T08:19:09Z phoe: asarch: this looks like the ID is some kind of key and everything else is values
2021-04-14T08:19:09Z White_Flame: (getf (find 30 *users* :key (lambda (user) (getf user :id))) :username)
2021-04-14T08:19:19Z phoe: at which point this looks like a hash table use case
2021-04-14T08:19:26Z lukego: (I have to say, reading through the Screamer source once from top to bottom has not really enhanced my enthusiasm for using it)
2021-04-14T08:19:31Z White_Flame: (typed before the last few lines, obviously)
2021-04-14T08:19:40Z jackdaniel: your solution is more complete!
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2021-04-14T08:20:06Z phoe: lukego: https://github.com/nikodemus/screamer/issues/19
2021-04-14T08:20:37Z White_Flame: since the FIND will return NIL on not found, it should all safely collapse to NIL even through the subsequent GETFs
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2021-04-14T08:20:42Z lukego: phoe: ah! the version issue
2021-04-14T08:21:15Z jackdaniel: another solution (loop for user = (nth (random (length users)) users) when (eq (getf user :id) <your-id>) do (return (getf user :username))) ;-]
2021-04-14T08:21:21Z Shinmera: splittist: it does but there's some weird dependency fluke apparently
2021-04-14T08:21:27Z Shinmera: splittist: https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/b3a27e/qtools_the_alien_function_sw_find_class_is/
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2021-04-14T08:22:59Z asarch: Thank you very much once again guys :-)
2021-04-14T08:23:04Z splittist: Shinmera: OK. Trying. Thanks! I know you have better things to do.
2021-04-14T08:23:17Z asarch: Have a nice day :-)
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2021-04-14T08:23:22Z jackdaniel: you too, thanks
2021-04-14T08:23:26Z Shinmera: splittist: No no, sorry things aren't working right away :(
2021-04-14T08:23:51Z Shinmera: I also wish I could just recommend Alloy, but it's still very rough.
2021-04-14T08:24:20Z phoe: I had this qtools issue when installing/compiling from scratch; I usually install and compile it, close my image, quickload it again, and then it works
2021-04-14T08:24:42Z phoe: but this only manifests during the very very first installation so I rarely ever reproduce it
2021-04-14T08:25:25Z Shinmera: yeah it's a very elusive bug that I could never quite trace.
2021-04-14T08:25:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, the USE-VALUE restart in slime seems to break everything when it's selected for a PACKAGE-DOES-NOT-EXIST error
2021-04-14T08:26:15Z phoe: huh? what do you mean?
2021-04-14T08:26:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's more complicated than that
2021-04-14T08:26:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm not entirely sure what's going on
2021-04-14T08:27:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, I put https://github.com/ruricolist/cl-boilerpipe into my local projects and then tried to load it
2021-04-14T08:27:30Z phoe: (handler-bind ((sb-ext:package-does-not-exist (lambda (c) (declare (ignore c)) (invoke-restart 'use-value :cl-user)))) (in-package :cl-ooser))
2021-04-14T08:27:33Z phoe: this works for me
2021-04-14T08:27:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: it complained that the package OPTIMA wasn't found, so I hit 2 to attempt to trick it into using TRIVIA
2021-04-14T08:27:47Z Shinmera: phoe: another ping for your verbose issue
2021-04-14T08:27:54Z phoe: Shinmera: aaaa, yes, thank you
2021-04-14T08:27:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: And slime and everything froze
2021-04-14T08:28:13Z phoe: oooh, like that
2021-04-14T08:28:24Z phoe: might have more complex interactions during compilation
2021-04-14T08:30:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, the backtrace is interesting
2021-04-14T08:30:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: The condition seems to be being signaled while a lock is held
2021-04-14T08:30:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: Inside the processing of a defpackage form
2021-04-14T08:31:16Z lukego: dammit looks like I'll just disable -Werror in asdf because I don't really understand how to apply a patch to Screamer in my current setup
2021-04-14T08:31:49Z jackdaniel: -Cerror
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2021-04-14T08:31:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: lukego: you can always add a file to your project that does IN-PACKAGE and then redefines
2021-04-14T08:31:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: :)
2021-04-14T08:32:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: Here's the backtrace I'm seeing: https://fwoar.co/pastebin/8da8b90c5df10c1116aefccfe888fa7548ef79ce.nil.html
2021-04-14T08:32:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: Now to see if I can come up with a minimal reproducing case
2021-04-14T08:33:42Z lukego: maybe the lowest hanging fruit here would be to somehow get quicklisp to apply patches during installation
2021-04-14T08:33:55Z lukego: anyone have such a mechanism? (asdf-level would be fine too I guess)
2021-04-14T08:35:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: lukego: it's sort of a hack, but you could add a component that's like (:file "patches")
2021-04-14T08:35:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: And just put all the patches into patches.lisp
2021-04-14T08:35:09Z Shinmera: you can build your own quicklisp dist that has different versions of the libraries you want to patch.
2021-04-14T08:35:18Z Shinmera: but that's involved.
2021-04-14T08:35:25Z flip214: lukego: I've just a few local git checkouts with changes in my local-projects
2021-04-14T08:35:26Z lukego: fiddlerwoaroof: but I don't have a private copy of the source tree where the asd file is defined
2021-04-14T08:35:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: Add it to your project's asd
2021-04-14T08:36:01Z lukego: I have a few local git checkouts too but I don't like that because it undermines my pinning and upgrading discpline. but okay that would be an acceptable workaround especially for screamer that's not updating rapidly
2021-04-14T08:36:24Z lukego: fiddlerwoaroof: my project's asd doesn't get loaded because its dependencies have failed to compile
2021-04-14T08:36:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, yeah you'd need to have a second system
2021-04-14T08:37:18Z lukego: I think that patches make sense to me. I'll be meaning to make a series of small temporary changes sparsely spread across various dependencies
2021-04-14T08:37:29Z lukego: lemme see if ql2nix provides an opportunity to patch things neatly
2021-04-14T08:37:39Z splittist: Shinmera: works. Thanks again!
2021-04-14T08:38:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: lukego: https://fwoar.co/pastebin/21e29c594ecc6cb4b7bd2cd57d6b31677c72c511.asd.html
2021-04-14T08:38:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've done something like this a couple times
2021-04-14T08:38:43Z lukego: fiddlerwoaroof: that looks neat but you still needed to patch the .asd file defining example
2021-04-14T08:38:59Z lukego: and at the moment I lack a way to patch my dependnecies
2021-04-14T08:39:32Z Shinmera: splittist: phew!
2021-04-14T08:39:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: Because it's a defsystem-depends-on, it'll be loaded before processing your project's dependencies
2021-04-14T08:40:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html#Defsystem-depends-on
2021-04-14T08:40:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, that won't work either
2021-04-14T08:40:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ignore me :)
2021-04-14T08:41:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: I just realized that I'm assuming the dependency actually loads
2021-04-14T08:44:18Z lukego: you know for now I'll just stop using screamer :)
2021-04-14T08:49:06Z phoe: I can see that nikodemus is not very active
2021-04-14T08:49:28Z phoe: maybe it would be worth to fork screamers to sharplispers and apply the fix there, since it's trivial
2021-04-14T08:49:44Z phoe: Xach: fe[nl]ix: what do you think?
2021-04-14T08:49:51Z phoe: s/screamers/screamer
2021-04-14T08:53:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: nikodemus has basically quit CL, I think
2021-04-14T08:54:29Z scymtym: phoe: sounds good to me. for other projects he created or was involved in (esrap, alexandria), ownership has already been transferred. for esrap, he explicitly blessed the transfer
2021-04-14T09:00:24Z jackdaniel: MetaYan_: do you have any opinion about this?
2021-04-14T09:00:43Z phoe: scymtym: I've sent him a mail so I can also have an explicit blessing
2021-04-14T09:01:08Z phoe: ;; and in case of no response, I'll be happy with an implicit blessing
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2021-04-14T09:15:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: Does anyone know of a library for extracting metadata from PDFs?
2021-04-14T09:15:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: cl-pdf isn't great for parsing PDFs
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2021-04-14T09:24:09Z flip214: fiddlerwoaroof: what kind of metadata are you looking for?
2021-04-14T09:24:54Z flip214: Marc is responsive if you have any feature requests
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2021-04-14T09:31:11Z lukego: Maybe should also hack ASDF to print a user-facing message about upgrading errors to warnings, I found that very confusing
2021-04-14T09:31:40Z lukego: I'm really sorely lacking a workflow to be able to hack on dependencies :-|
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2021-04-14T09:46:05Z lukego: I know you all think I'm a bad person for using Serapeum's -> macro to declare function types in design-by-contract style, but I'm finding it really useful in practice, I do a bunch more type checking than I usually would and it catches sloppiness like carelessly returning multiple values
2021-04-14T09:46:48Z phoe: I actually like and dig ftype declarations
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2021-04-14T09:53:12Z flip214: sbcl can infer return types by itself (at least sometimes), so declaring argument types already helps quite a lot
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2021-04-14T10:00:56Z Nilby: Return type? Suprise me. [too complex to check]
2021-04-14T10:01:55Z lukego: I'm declaring return types now and appreciating the compiler often telling me that I'm carelessly returning multiple values when I only mean to return one
2021-04-14T10:03:54Z White_Flame: flip214: it doesn't do that for non-returning error calls, though
2021-04-14T10:04:02Z Nilby: Unused multiple values are a primary food source for hungry ghosts.
2021-04-14T10:04:31Z White_Flame: (the fixnum (case foo (:a 1) (:b 2) (otherwise (call-error ...)))) will cause SBCL to scream, even though (otherwise (error ...)) is fine
2021-04-14T10:07:24Z Nilby: You never know when error could return: "the kinds of sweeping effects hinted at by this example"
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2021-04-14T10:08:53Z White_Flame: that quote is specifically about an implementation being buggy
2021-04-14T10:09:01Z phoe: White_Flame: actually, no
2021-04-14T10:09:10Z phoe: (declaim (ftype (function () nil) foo)) (defun foo () (error "foo")) (defun bar (x) (the fixnum (case x (:a 1) (:b 2) (otherwise (foo)))))
2021-04-14T10:09:13Z phoe: no warnings for me
2021-04-14T10:09:50Z White_Flame: hmm, I've tried (function (&rest t) nil) before, and that did nothing for me
2021-04-14T10:09:53Z White_Flame tries again
2021-04-14T10:11:23Z White_Flame: maybe because this is about a LABELS function and not a DEFUN?
2021-04-14T10:11:59Z phoe: (defun bar (x) (labels ((foo () (error "foo"))) (declare (ftype (function () nil) foo)) (the fixnum (case x (:a 1) (:b 2) (otherwise (foo))))))
2021-04-14T10:12:03Z phoe: no warnings for me
2021-04-14T10:14:07Z White_Flame: it tells me that my (syntax-error (&rest rest) ..build error string... (error ...)) function has some wrong derived type, not my declared type
2021-04-14T10:14:32Z White_Flame: (declare (ftype (function (&rest t) nil) syntax-error))
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2021-04-14T10:16:39Z White_Flame: "Result is a (VALUES (OR NUMBER (MEMBER :TRUE :NULL :FALSE NIL)) &OPTIONAL), not a CHARACTER."
2021-04-14T10:16:56Z phoe: hmmm
2021-04-14T10:16:59Z phoe: show me the code?
2021-04-14T10:17:13Z White_Flame: it's an internal thing, I'd have to extract it
2021-04-14T10:17:32Z phoe: also, uh
2021-04-14T10:17:36Z phoe: you declare the result type to be NIL
2021-04-14T10:17:46Z phoe: and it complains that it's not a character
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2021-04-14T10:17:58Z phoe: are you sure it's the right ftype that you're looking at?
2021-04-14T10:19:07Z White_Flame: yes
2021-04-14T10:19:19Z White_Flame: ==> (SB-C::%FUNCALL #'(LABELS SYNTAX-ERROR ....
2021-04-14T10:19:39Z phoe: please extract it then, I'm genuinely curious
2021-04-14T10:19:52Z White_Flame: ok, I'll PM
2021-04-14T10:20:03Z White_Flame: whenI do
2021-04-14T10:20:33Z flip214: for phoe's BAR I get    Derived type: (FUNCTION (T) (VALUES (INTEGER 1 2) &OPTIONAL))
2021-04-14T10:20:50Z flip214: even if I remove the DECLARE
2021-04-14T10:21:35Z flip214: (defun bar2 (x) (the fixnum (case x (:a 1) (:b 2) (otherwise (error "foo")))))
2021-04-14T10:21:42Z flip214:   Derived type: (FUNCTION (T) (VALUES (INTEGER 1 2) &OPTIONAL))
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2021-04-14T10:21:52Z flip214: no magic needed at all
2021-04-14T10:22:07Z phoe: yes, but I assume that White_Flame has a SYNTAX-ERROR call instead of ERROR
2021-04-14T10:22:11Z phoe: which is an indirection
2021-04-14T10:22:21Z White_Flame: right
2021-04-14T10:22:27Z phoe: where SYNTAX-ERROR is some custom function
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2021-04-14T10:22:43Z White_Flame: and of course a simple extraction of just syntax-error and a single use doesn't trip the error
2021-04-14T10:22:48Z White_Flame: it just builds up a more complex error string
2021-04-14T10:24:13Z flip214: If I move the (ERROR ...) out into another function (not even a LABELS) and use it in OTHERWISE, the result is the same
2021-04-14T10:24:36Z flip214: but perhaps this is so small that inlining just makes it the same
2021-04-14T10:25:05Z White_Flame: ah, I was able to trip it...
2021-04-14T10:25:19Z flip214: BAR-ERROR names a compiled function:
2021-04-14T10:25:19Z flip214:   Derived type: (FUNCTION (T) NIL)
2021-04-14T10:25:19Z flip214:   Source form: (LAMBDA (X) (BLOCK BAR-ERROR (ERROR X)))
2021-04-14T10:25:32Z flip214: also derived result type NIL here
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2021-04-14T10:27:22Z White_Flame: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2387#2387
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2021-04-14T10:27:56Z White_Flame: so the :true return value is leaking into the syntax-error derivation for some reason
2021-04-14T10:28:07Z White_Flame: might be a bug?
2021-04-14T10:28:18Z White_Flame: or is there legitimacy in that reasoning?
2021-04-14T10:28:59Z flip214:   Derived type: (FUNCTION (T) (VALUES (MEMBER :TRUE) &OPTIONAL))
2021-04-14T10:29:12Z phoe: what is your SBCL version and compiler policy?
2021-04-14T10:29:14Z phoe: I can't reproduce this
2021-04-14T10:29:35Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-04-14T10:29:40Z White_Flame: This is SBCL 2.1.3.50-e8b780650
2021-04-14T10:29:46Z phoe: 2.1.0 does not complain
2021-04-14T10:30:03Z phoe: let me upgrade to 2.1.3
2021-04-14T10:30:04Z flip214: White_Flame: the :TRUE is for (eq key :foo) - the error path doesn't return any value
2021-04-14T10:30:25Z White_Flame: flip214: it's saying that syntax-error returns :true
2021-04-14T10:30:36Z White_Flame: or am I reading it wrong?
2021-04-14T10:30:36Z flip214: how do you see that?
2021-04-14T10:30:49Z White_Flame: the complaint is for get-num's usage, when read-something's definition is present
2021-04-14T10:30:58Z flip214: I have no complaints from sbcl
2021-04-14T10:31:15Z phoe: flip214: what is your SBCL version?
2021-04-14T10:31:18Z flip214: 2.1.3
2021-04-14T10:31:33Z phoe: hmmmm, might be a new regression then?
2021-04-14T10:31:33Z White_Flame: annotated: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2387#2388
2021-04-14T10:31:39Z phoe: #sbcl will want to know about it in that case
2021-04-14T10:31:55Z White_Flame: ok
2021-04-14T10:32:20Z phoe: yes, that's invalid, SYNTAX-ERROR neither returns (member :true) nor is supposed to return a fixnum
2021-04-14T10:32:42Z phoe: so that's some heavy type confusion
2021-04-14T10:34:01Z phoe: oh wait, the FIXNUM is from the THE call
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2021-04-14T10:34:20Z phoe: OK, so it's just SYNTAX-ERROR having an incorrect type
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2021-04-14T10:54:00Z edgar-rft: where (the fixnum ... (error ...)) IMO is a buggy type declaration, because (error ...) is defined to return *no* values and therefore cannot be a fixnum
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2021-04-14T10:55:38Z flip214: edgar-rft: if it can't ever return, there cannot be a type conflict with the return value (because there is none)
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2021-04-14T10:58:19Z ebrasca: What are Deprecated Functions? ( http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/01_ha.htm )
2021-04-14T11:00:18Z phoe: edgar-rft: NIL is a subtype of FIXNUM
2021-04-14T11:01:18Z edgar-rft: ebrasca: functions that were marked as deprecated in 1994 but still exist in 2021
2021-04-14T11:01:31Z edgar-rft: phoe: true, thank you!
2021-04-14T11:01:49Z ebrasca: edgar-rft: Is it ok to use them?
2021-04-14T11:01:53Z phoe: ebrasca: yes
2021-04-14T11:02:10Z phoe: edgar-rft: also, "defined to return no values" would have a return type of (values)
2021-04-14T11:02:30Z phoe: a return type of NIL means elsething - that it does not return at all
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2021-04-14T11:03:20Z phoe: these two are highly distinct because a return type of (values) implies that the function is allowed to return at all in the general case
2021-04-14T11:03:55Z phoe: and you don't ever want #'ERROR (or #'INVOKE-DEBUGGER for the matter) to return at all
2021-04-14T11:03:56Z White_Flame: (good, that confirms my assumptions in reading these types)
2021-04-14T11:05:37Z edgar-rft: ebrasca: don't worry too much, in a hypothetical CL 2.0 standard (that is unlikely to happen) there might be a dicussion about that :-)
2021-04-14T11:06:13Z edgar-rft: White_Flame: sorry, I was wrong and phoe is right
2021-04-14T11:07:25Z phoe: function return types are real tricky
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2021-04-14T11:17:15Z ebrasca: What about CL 1.5 ?
2021-04-14T11:19:11Z jackdaniel: and if that's too much, what about CL 1.0.0.0.1?
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2021-04-14T11:20:39Z ebrasca: I was referencing Lisp 1.5
2021-04-14T11:21:02Z phoe: that's a blast from the past
2021-04-14T11:21:13Z edgar-rft: Lisp 1.5 was at least three decades before Common Lisp
2021-04-14T11:21:53Z ebrasca: I am sure if we make CL 1.5 we are going to have CL 2.0
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2021-04-14T11:23:18Z no-defun-allowed: Lisp was so good they never made Lisp 2: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LISP_2>
2021-04-14T11:26:39Z edgar-rft: Common Lisp is a Lisp-n, so it's far ahead of its time
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2021-04-14T11:29:51Z Xach: Lisp-nFinity
2021-04-14T11:30:21Z phoe: Lisp-#.(ackermann n n)
2021-04-14T11:30:50Z ebrasca: If CL is Lisp-n , why we don't have algol syntax?
2021-04-14T11:31:47Z no-defun-allowed: "Lisp 2" there refers to a hypothetical successor to the original Lisp (which never happened). Usually Lisp-n refers to the number of namespaces of things that the language manipulates.
2021-04-14T11:32:22Z no-defun-allowed: edgar-rft probably lost count of how many of such namespaces there are in Common Lisp, so wrote Lisp-n with a free variable.
2021-04-14T11:32:47Z phoe: there's also the fact that namespaces are user-definable, so n must be a free variable
2021-04-14T11:33:36Z ebrasca: Why someone need to define new namespaces?
2021-04-14T11:33:46Z edgar-rft: are there also proprietarily owned variables?
2021-04-14T11:33:57Z phoe: because they have new classes of things that need to be named
2021-04-14T11:34:08Z edgar-rft: or enslaved variables?
2021-04-14T11:34:15Z phoe: think of e.g. test suites, or test cases inside those test suites
2021-04-14T11:34:24Z phoe: or of ASDF systems
2021-04-14T11:34:26Z ebrasca: I don't understand.
2021-04-14T11:34:38Z phoe: (ql:quickload :alexandria)
2021-04-14T11:34:51Z phoe: :alexandria designates an ASDF system named "alexandria"
2021-04-14T11:34:57Z phoe: and "alexandria" is a name in the ASDF system namespace
2021-04-14T11:35:03Z phoe: that, obviously, is not a part of the CL standard
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2021-04-14T11:35:25Z jackdaniel is collecting infinity conses
2021-04-14T11:35:26Z no-defun-allowed: edgar-rft: You are thinking of bound variables.
2021-04-14T11:35:37Z edgar-rft: :-)
2021-04-14T11:35:52Z no-defun-allowed: A crucial part of design-by-contract, where they are legally bound to certain terms and conditions of course.
2021-04-14T11:36:27Z phoe: CL variables can be unbound but not unbounded
2021-04-14T11:36:28Z ebrasca: How I can see this ASDF namespace?
2021-04-14T11:36:41Z phoe: ebrasca: the same way you can see other namespaces
2021-04-14T11:36:49Z ebrasca: How?
2021-04-14T11:37:03Z phoe: the simplest tools are asdf:find-system and asdf:defsystem
2021-04-14T11:37:17Z phoe: see the similarity to cl:find-package and cl:defpackage
2021-04-14T11:39:44Z edgar-rft: LIST-ALL-PACKAGES returns a list of all currently defined packages if that helps
2021-04-14T11:41:35Z phoe: seems like ASDF does not have a LIST-ALL-SYSTEMS function, hm
2021-04-14T11:41:41Z phoe: but this works, (let ((x '())) (asdf:map-systems (lambda (y) (push (asdf:component-name y) x))) x)
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2021-04-14T11:43:04Z ebrasca: I can have "asd" as function , variable , package , test case ...
2021-04-14T11:43:13Z phoe: sort of kind of
2021-04-14T11:43:24Z phoe: you can't have "asd" as a function because the function namespace is named by symbols
2021-04-14T11:43:27Z phoe: not strings
2021-04-14T11:43:49Z phoe: that's the difference: some namespaces have distinct name types
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2021-04-14T11:47:22Z Lycurgus: phoe, I was wondering about the price anomalies on your book
2021-04-14T11:47:33Z Cthulhux quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2021-04-14T11:48:03Z Lycurgus: (used, kindle costing more than new)
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2021-04-14T11:48:21Z phoe: Lycurgus: I am absolutely unaware of them and I cannot provide any reasoning beacuse of that
2021-04-14T11:48:30Z phoe: I'd need to ask Apress, and I can if you provide me with some data
2021-04-14T11:48:41Z Lycurgus: on amazon
2021-04-14T11:49:09Z phoe: from what I last checked, used likely cost more because they are sold by shops that are not in Amazon's direct shipping reach
2021-04-14T11:49:34Z ebrasca: phoe: Did you make a book?
2021-04-14T11:49:36Z phoe: which is weird because apress ships worldwide, but on the other hand resellers still exist and make money
2021-04-14T11:49:40Z phoe: minion: tell ebrasca about tclcs
2021-04-14T11:49:40Z minion: ebrasca: tclcs: The Common Lisp Condition System, https://www.apress.com/us/book/9781484261330
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2021-04-14T11:50:22Z Lycurgus: ah, thought something of that sort
2021-04-14T11:51:42Z phoe: Lycurgus: I have no idea about Kindle though! (I don't use it myself)
2021-04-14T11:52:08Z Lycurgus: it's basically just pdf for the amazon reader
2021-04-14T11:52:46Z Lycurgus: generally the kindle version is substantially less often less than half the hardcopy
2021-04-14T11:55:02Z Lycurgus: actually it might be epub or whatever
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2021-04-14T12:19:49Z nij: Good morning! I have a lisp file to be run automatically. However, on some machine I don't have certain package, so the symbol PACKAGE:FUN1 may cause an error even at READ time. A workaround is to use (funcall (find-symbol "fun1" "PACKAGE")) instead.. but that means I have to change all of PACKAGE:FUN1 to that long stuff.. is there any better workaround?
2021-04-14T12:20:57Z phoe: wait a second, if you don't have package named PACKAGE then FIND-SYMBOL will signal an error anyway
2021-04-14T12:21:02Z phoe: except at runtime
2021-04-14T12:22:24Z nij: Oh, I did put that into a (when (ignore-errors (ql:quickload :PACKAGE)) [here])
2021-04-14T12:22:39Z phoe: the bug is that you actually use ignore-errors
2021-04-14T12:23:00Z phoe: the system is not loaded until runtime, so you do not have its symbols at read-time.
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2021-04-14T12:23:34Z phoe: quick and dirty workaround: at the top of your file, (eval-always (ql:quickload :package))
2021-04-14T12:23:47Z phoe: actual solution: use proper ASDF dependencies
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2021-04-14T12:24:16Z Bike: it sounded like nij wanted the code to not necessarily be dependent on the system
2021-04-14T12:24:22Z nij: for the second solution, i do expect on some machine there won't be PACKAGE
2021-04-14T12:24:25Z Bike: and asdf doesn't really do optional dependencies as far as i remember
2021-04-14T12:24:32Z phoe: oh, like that
2021-04-14T12:24:39Z phoe: then you need to conditionally quickload anyway
2021-04-14T12:24:49Z nij: (if has-package load! do-nothing!)
2021-04-14T12:24:50Z phoe: IGNORE-ERRORS kinda solves that issue but it's dirty
2021-04-14T12:25:06Z phoe: this sounds like a case for reader conditionals then
2021-04-14T12:25:20Z nij: (when (ignore-errors (ql:quickload :PACKAGE)) (package:fun1)) => ERROR!
2021-04-14T12:25:38Z phoe: yes, this is because the reader does not have the package PACKAGE at read-time
2021-04-14T12:25:42Z nij: Because it was trying to READ package:fun1 at READ time, which causes the problem.
2021-04-14T12:25:44Z nij: yes
2021-04-14T12:26:15Z nij: I have lots of package:fun1 in that file.. and changing them all to (find-symbol "fun1" "PACKAGE") seems a little bit dirty and ugly.
2021-04-14T12:26:31Z nij: (let alone funcall)
2021-04-14T12:26:38Z phoe: can you extract that into another file and only load it when the system in question is found?
2021-04-14T12:26:45Z phoe: since I think will be the easiest
2021-04-14T12:26:51Z phoe: s/will/that will/
2021-04-14T12:26:51Z nij: OH that could do!
2021-04-14T12:27:18Z nij: a bit less idealistic though..
2021-04-14T12:27:25Z nij: i hope the code and the condition is presented together
2021-04-14T12:27:33Z nij: I will do that if there's no better solution..
2021-04-14T12:27:55Z phoe: you could hack your way around using reader conditionals instead
2021-04-14T12:28:12Z nij: or should i write a macro that replaces any (package:fun1 body..) into (funcall (package:fun1 body..))?
2021-04-14T12:28:24Z phoe: you can't do it with a macro
2021-04-14T12:28:29Z phoe: macroexpansion time happens after read time
2021-04-14T12:28:46Z nij: oh yes.. duh
2021-04-14T12:29:10Z daphnis: what is a way to avoid repetition in cond, when all tests are, say, whether the same value is a member of various lists?
2021-04-14T12:29:25Z phoe: ugly stuff like #+#.(when (asdf:find-system :foo) '(and) '(or)) could possibly work
2021-04-14T12:29:32Z phoe: daphnis: alexandria:switch with a custom test
2021-04-14T12:32:55Z phoe: !!!
2021-04-14T12:33:03Z phoe: I just found a bug in alexandria:switch
2021-04-14T12:33:18Z jackdaniel: witch!
2021-04-14T12:33:42Z daphnis: phoe: thanks
2021-04-14T12:33:50Z nij: !!!
2021-04-14T12:33:53Z phoe: daphnis: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2389#2389
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2021-04-14T12:34:15Z phoe: try to replace the lambda with (alexandria:rcurry #'member :test #'equal) and watch the world burn.
2021-04-14T12:34:39Z nij: I tried #+#.(ql:quickload :recording) t       => error!
2021-04-14T12:34:52Z phoe: nij: reader conditionals work differently
2021-04-14T12:34:54Z nij: (no :RECORDING is there)
2021-04-14T12:35:32Z nij: Oh I see.
2021-04-14T12:36:46Z nij: #+#.(when (asdf:find-system :foo) '(and) '(or))  => error!
2021-04-14T12:37:15Z jackdaniel: does alexandria claim that test is evaluated?
2021-04-14T12:38:20Z phoe: unspecified
2021-04-14T12:39:19Z jackdaniel: defaulting to (quote eql) certainly makes such impression though
2021-04-14T12:39:32Z phoe: it only supports extracting QUOTE and FUNCTION via manual intervention
2021-04-14T12:39:39Z phoe: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/alexandria/alexandria/-/blob/master/alexandria-1/control-flow.lisp#L3-9
2021-04-14T12:40:08Z phoe: why would it do that instead of doing an explicit ONCE-ONLY on the test and then FUNCALLing it though?
2021-04-14T12:41:10Z jackdaniel: funcalling things may have a certain performance penalty
2021-04-14T12:41:31Z jackdaniel: because not-sufficiently-smart-compiler will resolve the function at runtime
2021-04-14T12:42:05Z phoe: in this case, alexandria:switch could be smart and only resolve to FUNCALL if the test is a list whose CAR is neither QUOTE nor FUNCTION
2021-04-14T12:42:06Z jackdaniel: that said this probably should be smarter, like: atom - return spec, cons and (quite function) - extract, just cons - evaluate
2021-04-14T12:42:22Z jackdaniel: sure, I'm just guessing why it is written the way it is
2021-04-14T12:42:24Z phoe: yes
2021-04-14T12:42:35Z jackdaniel: lunch came, later \o
2021-04-14T12:42:45Z phoe: cya
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2021-04-14T12:52:44Z nij: What's the cleanest way to alias #'f to #'g?
2021-04-14T12:53:04Z Bike: (setf (fdefinition 'f) (fdefinition 'g))
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2021-04-14T12:54:29Z nij: hmm.. error: G is undefined
2021-04-14T12:55:27Z Bike: er, did i misunderstand the direction, here?
2021-04-14T12:55:38Z _death: (rotatef (cadr form) (caddr form))
2021-04-14T12:55:41Z Bike: do you want to make F an alias for an existing G function, or the other way around?
2021-04-14T12:55:58Z nij: oh the other way around works.. my english is the bug
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2021-04-14T13:09:08Z nij: Hmm.. can I connect to a swank/slynk server from a running sbcl repl?
2021-04-14T13:09:37Z nij: Normally we have to go to emacs and `M-x sly-connect`.. but sometimes I want to hop into a server in a living repl.
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2021-04-14T13:10:27Z Bike: i don't understand
2021-04-14T13:10:41Z Bike: it's emacs that connects to swank/slynk. sbcl _runs_ a swank/slynk server
2021-04-14T13:11:11Z nij: yes.. say we have two sbcl repls. r1 and r2.
2021-04-14T13:11:30Z nij: In r1 I launch a swank server. I want to connect to it in r2..
2021-04-14T13:11:57Z Bike: i mean it's emacs/slime/whatever it is for slynk that does the connection
2021-04-14T13:12:06Z Bike: that is an emacs program. it is not a lisp program. it doesn't run in sbcl
2021-04-14T13:12:15Z Bike: i don't think there is a lisp version of the client
2021-04-14T13:13:07Z nij: i see :(
2021-04-14T13:13:28Z Bike: i mean, it woudl be weird conceptually, right? it's not like an sbcl repl is a text editor
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2021-04-14T13:14:21Z _death: well, it could be useful.. with climacs or whatever
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2021-04-14T13:14:33Z Alfr: nij, as a work around, you could securely forward the port swank/slynk listens on to a machine where you have emacs.
2021-04-14T13:14:35Z nij: For an sbcl to subsume shell.. I think this is needed?
2021-04-14T13:15:05Z Bike: well a shell is still not a text editor
2021-04-14T13:15:16Z Bike: maybe i don't understand what you mean
2021-04-14T13:15:54Z nij: i just hope that we can control one repl from another repl
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2021-04-14T13:16:35Z _death: in fact looks like someone already did some work https://github.com/lem-project/lem/blob/master/modes/lisp-mode/swank-protocol.lisp
2021-04-14T13:16:36Z Bike: you could set up your own socket code to do so, though i'm not immediately sure of the point
2021-04-14T13:17:00Z Bike: man, there are kind of a lot of lisp editor projects, aren't there
2021-04-14T13:17:57Z Bike: but the slime/swank protocol is set up for editors so a lot of it won't make sense where you have a repl instead of an editor
2021-04-14T13:18:00Z beach: But don't they all do roughly the same thing?
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2021-04-14T13:18:12Z Bike: the editors? sure, i guess, they edit
2021-04-14T13:18:31Z beach: They "just" edit.
2021-04-14T13:19:42Z Bike: i haven't used lem so i don't know what features it does or doesn't have
2021-04-14T13:19:55Z Alfr: ... on their own and spit out what you wish for? I still waiting for that one. :D
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2021-04-14T13:20:10Z Alfr: s/I/I'm/
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2021-04-14T13:23:31Z phoe: Bike: there is
2021-04-14T13:23:40Z phoe: https://github.com/brown/swank-client/
2021-04-14T13:23:56Z Bike: alright then. there you go, nij
2021-04-14T13:24:07Z phoe: along with swank-crew and lfarm for better distributed protocol
2021-04-14T13:24:11Z phoe: s/protocol/computing/
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2021-04-14T13:24:30Z phoe: you can use the swank protocol for CL↔CL communication just fine this way
2021-04-14T13:25:08Z Bike: using an editor protocol for rpc seems like overkill to me. i guess it's easier than developing a smaller protocol and convincing people to implement it
2021-04-14T13:25:39Z nij is in search of a slynk-client
2021-04-14T13:26:03Z phoe: it avoids the NIH syndrome - there is already a battle-tested protocol and a battle-tested server, so why not
2021-04-14T13:27:14Z jackdaniel: there was a clim implementation of this protocol (for climacs) - afair its name was "SWINE" ^_^
2021-04-14T13:29:24Z no-defun-allowed: Does it run in Wine? Then can I debug that combination from a lispm on EINE?
2021-04-14T13:29:45Z jackdaniel: sure it does
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2021-04-14T13:31:30Z nij: im afraid there's no slynk equivalent of swank-client.
2021-04-14T13:31:36Z nij: jeez time to learn swank :D :D
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2021-04-14T13:32:06Z phoe: actually
2021-04-14T13:32:16Z phoe: https://github.com/joaotavora/sly/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md#swank-is-now-called-slynk
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2021-04-14T13:32:51Z phoe: sly speaks the swank protocol
2021-04-14T13:32:59Z phoe: and swank-client is explicitly mentioned there
2021-04-14T13:33:05Z phoe: which is good news for you
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2021-04-14T13:34:10Z nij: OH great. Lemme see :-D
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2021-04-14T14:26:47Z attila_lendvai: any ASDF experts? i'd like to avoid perform'ing an operation if the output file exists (i.e. regardless of the modification time). any hints? overriding operation-done-p seems to be not enough.
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2021-04-14T14:33:04Z flip214: sorry, I can only offer an opposite hint - if you want to rebuild always, (on linux) you can use a dependency like /proc/stat which is always "current"
2021-04-14T14:33:15Z flip214: attila_lendvai: can you compare the output file's timestamp to itself?
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2021-04-14T14:34:25Z attila_lendvai: flip214, my issue is that i don't know what part of ASDF i should hook into. op-done-p is not even called if the input file's mod time is earlier
2021-04-14T14:35:16Z flip214: can you make input file == output file?
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2021-04-14T15:19:20Z daphnis: how do i turn '((a b) (c d)) into '(a b c d)?
2021-04-14T15:19:51Z beach: daphnis: (reduce #'append '((a b) (c d)) :from-end t)
2021-04-14T15:21:44Z phoe: or (a:mappend #'identity '((a b) (c d)))
2021-04-14T15:21:52Z phoe: but that's only because I like mappend
2021-04-14T15:22:31Z phoe: Xach: nikodemus replied! I'll make a private fork first, submit some PRs, and then request him to transfer the repository over to sharplispers
2021-04-14T15:22:50Z beach: phoe: How is mappend implemented?
2021-04-14T15:23:14Z phoe: beach: (loop for results in (apply #'mapcar function lists) append results)
2021-04-14T15:23:42Z beach: That will work.
2021-04-14T15:23:49Z phoe: I assume that LOOP APPEND is smart enough to do :from-end t automatically for optimization
2021-04-14T15:23:53Z beach: yeah.
2021-04-14T15:23:59Z beach: Pretty sure.
2021-04-14T15:24:35Z phoe: _death: I see you have some screamer changes that have not been mainstreamed, should I take a look at them?
2021-04-14T15:25:53Z daphnis: beach: thanks!
2021-04-14T15:25:59Z beach: Pleasure.
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2021-04-14T15:30:15Z daphnis: from-end is faster?
2021-04-14T15:30:47Z phoe: yes
2021-04-14T15:30:57Z beach: If you don't to :FROM-END T then you have a quadratic algorithm.
2021-04-14T15:31:03Z phoe: it conses O(n) conses rather than O(n²)--- yes
2021-04-14T15:31:44Z splittist: phoe: if you're reaching for alexandria, why not a:flatten ? (:
2021-04-14T15:31:47Z phoe: note that if your lists are fresh and mutable rather than literal/quoted/immutable, you can NCONC them instead of APPENDing, and you'll cons nothing
2021-04-14T15:32:03Z phoe: splittist: will break in case of nested lists since it'll flatten them all
2021-04-14T15:32:10Z phoe: I got bitten by that once
2021-04-14T15:32:27Z beach: phoe: yes, but without :from-end t, you still have to traverse a quadratic number of times.
2021-04-14T15:32:43Z phoe: beach: oh right, it'll be both O(n²) space and memory
2021-04-14T15:33:05Z phoe: or rather, the latter will be reclaimable by the GC because the intermediate conses will be collectable
2021-04-14T15:33:10Z phoe: but still, this produces GC pressure
2021-04-14T15:33:35Z beach is lost.  But that could be because of the time of day.
2021-04-14T15:33:43Z phoe: don't mind me
2021-04-14T15:33:44Z beach: "space and memory"?
2021-04-14T15:33:54Z phoe: time and memory, sorry
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2021-04-14T15:34:58Z beach: So APPEND without :FROM-END T is quadratic in consing and traversal.  NCONC without :FROM-END T is quadratic in traversal only.
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2021-04-14T15:36:17Z phoe: oh right! I was thinking APPLY rather than REDUCE, you're right
2021-04-14T15:36:29Z phoe: REDUCE will work better.
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2021-04-14T15:47:52Z _death: phoe: yeah, I think they make sense
2021-04-14T15:48:33Z phoe: I see that nikodemus just reverted the SBCL change because it broke on clisp for whatever reason
2021-04-14T15:48:43Z phoe: the one with redefinition warnings
2021-04-14T15:49:01Z phoe: wouldn't it make more sense to prevent duplicate definitions from being generated in the first place?
2021-04-14T15:49:04Z phoe: (if possible)
2021-04-14T15:52:59Z _death: it's always possible, but would not be worthwhile in this case
2021-04-14T15:54:06Z phoe: we depend on implementation-defined behavior if we actually do generate multiple definitions
2021-04-14T15:54:20Z phoe: this can sort of work, but also is a portability quirk
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2021-04-14T15:56:16Z _death: screamer has a good reason for redefining them (when it realizes they are nondeterministic as they call nondeterministic functions that are defined later)
2021-04-14T15:56:50Z phoe: yes, I see
2021-04-14T15:56:51Z _death: iirc it's not implementation-defined behavior.. check the clhs reference I gave
2021-04-14T15:58:03Z _death: I don't know how it breaks on clisp (I've not checked it)
2021-04-14T15:58:06Z phoe: it's unspecified - CLHS defines that as "unpredictable but harmless"
2021-04-14T15:58:34Z _death: clhs 3.2.2.3
2021-04-14T15:58:35Z specbot: Semantic Constraints: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_bbc.htm
2021-04-14T15:58:45Z phoe: and that implementations are permitted to specify the consequences, and that portable code must not depend on the results or effects of that situation
2021-04-14T15:59:00Z phoe: "The consequences are unspecified if functions are redefined individually at run time or multiply defined in the same file."
2021-04-14T15:59:32Z phoe: I kinda wonder what "harmless" means in this concrete context
2021-04-14T16:00:45Z phoe: since they are also "unpredictable", so in theory two DEFUN FOO in one file can cause... yes, what exactly is permitted?
2021-04-14T16:01:08Z _death: where is the word "harmless"?
2021-04-14T16:01:19Z phoe: clhs 1.4.2
2021-04-14T16:01:19Z specbot: Error Terminology: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/01_db.htm
2021-04-14T16:01:21Z _death: in the definition of "unspecified"?
2021-04-14T16:01:24Z phoe: "The consequences are unspecified"
2021-04-14T16:01:53Z Bike: this seems like kind of a vague definition.
2021-04-14T16:02:25Z phoe: sure it is, because when we have two DEFUN FOOs in a row then what exactly does it mean that it's "unpredictable" to have stuff like that
2021-04-14T16:03:00Z phoe: because unpredictability itself in such a case is anything but harmless if e.g. we completely skip the second DEFUN FOO
2021-04-14T16:03:28Z phoe: which, naïvely looking, seems to be permitted?
2021-04-14T16:03:49Z _death: I don't remember what prompted me to make that change.. possibly an SBCL warning
2021-04-14T16:04:03Z phoe: I think so, yes, SBCL complains about multiple definitions
2021-04-14T16:04:28Z phoe: it produces full warnings for that
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2021-04-14T16:05:12Z _death: and why does clisp fail?
2021-04-14T16:05:22Z MetaYan_: jackdaniel: I just noticed that you were asking for my opinion about something earlier today, but even after reading the backlog, I still can't figure out what about...
2021-04-14T16:05:27Z _death: (with my change.. presumably it doesn't fail so hard without?)
2021-04-14T16:05:37Z phoe: _death: I have no idea! nikodemus will know
2021-04-14T16:05:54Z phoe: all I know is https://github.com/nikodemus/screamer/pull/20
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2021-04-14T16:06:33Z phoe: perhaps it's because the HANDLER-BIND-wrapped DEFUN is no longer toplevel
2021-04-14T16:07:07Z phoe: which shouldn't really matter, because of the EVAL-ALWAYS... huh
2021-04-14T16:08:41Z _death: ok, I tried loading it with clisp
2021-04-14T16:08:48Z _death: @3728>: there is no package with name #1="SB-EXT"
2021-04-14T16:09:05Z _death: but that may be from another commit
2021-04-14T16:09:10Z phoe: wait, sb-ext? where
2021-04-14T16:09:15Z phoe: yes, must be some other commit
2021-04-14T16:09:43Z _death: yeah, another of my commits.. I'll conditionalize on #+sbcl for now
2021-04-14T16:09:48Z phoe: oh, yes, I see it now
2021-04-14T16:10:10Z _death: otherwise, it loads successfully
2021-04-14T16:10:30Z phoe: I asked for the concrete compilation error in the PR
2021-04-14T16:10:48Z _death: it wants stefil for the tests.. hmm
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2021-04-14T16:11:51Z _death: test-screamer returns T
2021-04-14T16:12:35Z _death: hopefully nikodemus will elaborate
2021-04-14T16:12:41Z phoe: yes
2021-04-14T16:16:33Z _death: not sure the tests cover that code.. I have some screamer code, but may or may not load on clisp without effort
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2021-04-14T16:18:23Z _death: eh, clisp backtraces look crappy with slime.. and no frame-source-location implementation
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2021-04-14T16:31:22Z _death: ok, some of my aoc2020 code that uses screamer fails on clisp, because screamer's walker does not support MACROLET
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2021-04-14T16:34:34Z _death: and clisp's LOOP expands to that.. so I'm not sure screamer is very useful on clisp :)
2021-04-14T16:35:59Z phoe: gasp
2021-04-14T16:36:16Z phoe: make an issue mayhaps!
2021-04-14T16:36:38Z _death: nah, I don't use clisp nowadays so it's not an issue for me
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2021-04-14T16:38:29Z _death: are you planning on using screamer btw?
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2021-04-14T16:39:06Z phoe: a little bit; I plan on giving it some maintenance in order to get the official blessing to move the repo to sharplispers
2021-04-14T16:39:24Z phoe: and I've been curious about it for a long time, so that's also a chance to get to know it in depth
2021-04-14T16:39:39Z _death: cool
2021-04-14T16:40:29Z Shinmera: There's also https://shinmera.github.io/classowary for a linear constraint solver alternative. :)
2021-04-14T16:41:03Z Shinmera: It's definitely less fancy than Screamer though
2021-04-14T16:41:28Z _death: cool, I also have a pulp-like thing
2021-04-14T16:41:40Z phoe: Shinmera: it certainly seems capable of screaming though
2021-04-14T16:41:41Z phoe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dcQO6Zb8Eg
2021-04-14T16:42:13Z Shinmera: At least I can guarantee Classowary works well, since I use it quite a bit in my Alloy layouts.
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2021-04-14T16:42:50Z _death: that looks like https://gist.github.com/death/9b1be6ce8b34eb771c1d2ba6ef28210f
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2021-04-14T16:45:27Z Shinmera: https://github.com/Shinmera/kandria/blob/master/ui/dialog.lisp#L29-L33
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2021-04-14T16:58:30Z _death: phoe: another thing about screamer, I remember they warn about using stuff like DOLIST/DOTIMES in nondeterministic functions, because it may not establish a new binding on each iteration (it's implementation-defined).. but since they shadow CL symbols like DEFUN, why not also shadow DOLIST and friends to provide just that?.. I've not tried it
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2021-04-14T16:58:55Z phoe: _death: that can work and should be a simple transform, please make an issue
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2021-04-14T16:59:57Z _death: phoe: I don't like posting issues :).. to me an issue is a call for action on the maintainer, and I prefer my calls for action to be in the form of pull requests
2021-04-14T17:00:35Z phoe: _death: since it seems that I'll be maintaining screamer in the future - please do so
2021-04-14T17:01:05Z phoe: (and you can explicitly mention that in the issue text if that makes you feel a little bit better)
2021-04-14T17:01:07Z _death: phoe: you may do it yourself, if you're interested ;)
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2021-04-14T17:02:25Z phoe: _death: ...I actually started looking at the docs and I cannot find them there
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2021-04-14T17:02:34Z phoe: like, dolist or dotimes
2021-04-14T17:02:49Z phoe: http://nikodemus.github.io/screamer/ does not mention dolist or dotimes or the term "binding"
2021-04-14T17:03:20Z _death: phoe: that's just what nikodemus wrote.. the original docs are in the papers directory
2021-04-14T17:04:08Z phoe: grepping the papers directory shows nothing, either
2021-04-14T17:04:34Z _death: check screamer.pdf
2021-04-14T17:04:35Z phoe: oooh, it is in the PDF file.
2021-04-14T17:04:39Z phoe: grepping doesn't find that.
2021-04-14T17:07:01Z phoe: and transforming DO macros is going to be simple but I don't think I'll want to make a LOOP wrapper
2021-04-14T17:07:42Z _death: right.. LOOP is a no-no too, but it's still useful in deterministic functions..
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2021-04-14T17:18:08Z Brucio-43 test
2021-04-14T17:18:17Z phoe: test successful
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2021-04-14T17:23:02Z Shinmera: or not.
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2021-04-14T17:51:30Z fe[nl]ix: phoe: we can certainly move it to sharplispers
2021-04-14T17:51:48Z fe[nl]ix: it would be nice if Nikodemus started that instead of forking
2021-04-14T17:55:27Z _death: there's also screamer+, though the code there likely needs some work..
2021-04-14T17:56:14Z mfiano: Wasn't there a screamer extensions repository with a questionable license, perhaps not by the same author?
2021-04-14T17:58:28Z _death: yeah, it has a "You may not distribute the code without prior consent from me.".. I'm guessing 20 years later, someone could ask the author to relicense
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2021-04-14T17:59:01Z mfiano: https://github.com/danlentz/screamer-plus
2021-04-14T17:59:12Z mfiano: I guess questionable in that it has none?
2021-04-14T17:59:42Z _death: mfiano: see comment in screamer-plus.lisp
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2021-04-14T18:00:40Z mfiano: Eww, custom license.
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2021-04-14T18:35:31Z phoe: fe[nl]ix: I got a mail from Nikodemus - he'll gladly move it himself once some fixes with PRs are submitted to the original repo
2021-04-14T18:36:22Z phoe: and I'll try doing just that
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2021-04-14T19:03:32Z attila_lendvai: luis, ping. would you mind if we made cffi get captured by quicklisp by a moving tag instead of the tarball from cl.net? i.e. tagged-git https://github.com/cffi/cffi.git stable
2021-04-14T19:04:10Z attila_lendvai: luis, that would make it more flexible for us to designate which state ql should capture... just move a tag, instead of releasing...
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2021-04-14T19:24:36Z fe[nl]ix: phoe: very nice
2021-04-14T19:24:54Z fe[nl]ix: attila_lendvai: what's the benefit ?
2021-04-14T19:26:08Z attila_lendvai: fe[nl]ix, anyone who has the git commit bit can designate what should go into ql. moving a tag is much less work than releasing, and maybe you don't want to release, yet you want ql to get some patches.
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2021-04-14T19:27:09Z attila_lendvai: another benefit is that ql can capture the sources even if cl.net is down (assuming that github.com will better survive any upcoming internet split)
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2021-04-14T19:28:18Z Odin-: attila_lendvai: I'd guess that depends on whether you end up on the Apple or Facebook side.
2021-04-14T19:28:23Z Odin-: :p
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2021-04-14T19:30:13Z attila_lendvai: Odin-, i'm more worried about politicians screwing us up with their geopolitical nonsense...
2021-04-14T19:31:10Z attila_lendvai: bonus reason: git is a much better versioning tool than named tarballs on random servers...
2021-04-14T19:32:10Z Odin-: attila_lendvai: Those are all 'soft' splits, and most of the ones that are likely to happen based on the geopolitics are already in place.
2021-04-14T19:32:51Z Odin-: Unless you're expecting a successful nazi movement in the US next round..?
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2021-04-14T19:37:33Z Shinmera: this is definitely not the place to discuss politics.
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2021-04-14T20:13:39Z copec: Is there a standard name for an initialization function that people like to group everything under for some package?
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2021-04-14T20:19:19Z phoe: clhs initialize-instance
2021-04-14T20:19:19Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_init_i.htm
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2021-04-14T20:19:45Z phoe: people like adding constructor stuffs as :before and :after methods for that GF
2021-04-14T20:19:54Z phoe: mostly :after
2021-04-14T20:20:06Z phoe: or do you mean something else?
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2021-04-14T20:26:58Z copec: I read in S-exp from a config file into clos objects, and have a function that does it
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2021-04-14T20:28:26Z copec: I could just (function-name) under a commented init section, but I was wondering if there was a defacto standard, like to make an (init) function or something
2021-04-14T20:28:29Z copec: and group everything under that
2021-04-14T20:32:46Z asarch: What is a "generator"?
2021-04-14T20:33:15Z Bike: that term refers to many different things in many different contexts
2021-04-14T20:33:23Z Bike: do you have one in min
2021-04-14T20:33:24Z Bike: d
2021-04-14T20:34:42Z asarch: As a result of a query from a DB cluster?
2021-04-14T20:36:02Z Bike: it might mean a closure with state that returns a new value from an iteration every time you call it
2021-04-14T20:36:10Z Bike: but that is a guess based on little information
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2021-04-14T20:43:56Z asarch: Where could I learn more about it?
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2021-04-14T20:44:12Z Bike: i don't know? the documentation of whatever system you're getting this thing from, probably?
2021-04-14T20:46:02Z asarch: I see
2021-04-14T20:46:18Z asarch: Thank you Bike! Thank you very much! :-)
2021-04-14T20:46:24Z asarch: Have a nice day!
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2021-04-14T20:50:16Z Alfr: I think w-h-t-i has a nice example for generators in that sense, Bike.
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2021-04-14T22:43:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: flip214: maybe I should contact him directly, I'd like to pull  things like author/title/etc.
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2021-04-14T22:43:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: The last time I tried, I also ran into issues with PDF spec versions, I think
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2021-04-15T02:56:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think screamer-plus's github repo there might be a license violation :)
2021-04-15T02:57:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: The email in the license note is for Simon White e
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2021-04-15T03:02:58Z Nilby: Yes. Also the "You may not distribute the code" part.
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2021-04-15T03:07:51Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-04-15T03:09:45Z Nilby: Good morning.
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2021-04-15T06:12:49Z flip214: fiddlerwoaroof: https://github.com/mbattyani/cl-pdf/issues/27
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2021-04-15T07:10:19Z lukego: I was a good boy and write some unit tests but I'm already deleting them all because they are not worth the effort to maintain.
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2021-04-15T08:07:43Z splittist: lukego: If I'm writing to a spec, or in the last throws of writing (or, at least, working out) a spec, then I find unit(?) tests to be useful. But if I'm 'exploring the design space' (i.e. coding without knowing what I'm doing) then I do find them a boat anchor rather than a sanity check.
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2021-04-15T08:12:16Z lukego: splittist: I think that in this case I wrote some really basic unit tests as scaffolding to get some low-level routines working for the first time. but now I don't need it much because I've written other code that exercises these routines pretty thoroughly and I can just run that to get test coverage.
2021-04-15T08:13:12Z lukego: so it seems like my test suite will just try to exercise lots of relevant code paths and then I'll need to have enough "design by contract" style instrumentation to be able to catch and debug errors when/where they occur
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2021-04-15T08:14:24Z jackdaniel: I call it bravery! ;-)
2021-04-15T08:15:04Z jackdaniel: but tests are a drag (although a very useful one)
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2021-04-15T08:16:24Z lukego: (my case might also be special in that these are routines for importing data in a specific file format and it only takes three and a half seconds to import all such data that actually exists... so I don't really need to be prepared for inputs that aren't included in the test suite)
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2021-04-15T12:55:46Z shka_: hi all
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2021-04-15T12:59:07Z attila_lendvai: is quicklisp automatically hooking into ASDF by default to download any missing systems? if not, is there a simple way to enable that?
2021-04-15T13:04:58Z shka_: attila_lendvai: you are asking because a system does not load or what?
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2021-04-15T13:07:59Z jmercouris: any way to a suppress "WARNING: redefining XYZ"
2021-04-15T13:08:07Z jmercouris: when I know that I am explicitly wishing to redfine something?
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2021-04-15T13:09:33Z Xach: attila_lendvai: it only hooks in when using quickload
2021-04-15T13:09:44Z Xach: that establishes a handler for the system-not-found error
2021-04-15T13:09:55Z attila_lendvai: shka_, i'm changing code (hu.dwim.asdf) and i don't want to regress it, and it's not trivial for me to test it right now.
2021-04-15T13:10:50Z attila_lendvai: Xach, thank you for clarifying it! do you have any plans of adding/supporting a find system hook ala the discussion under one of the :defsystem-depends-on issue?
2021-04-15T13:10:58Z Xach: No plans
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2021-04-15T13:11:50Z attila_lendvai: Xach, the reson is that sometimes it's much more convenient to sideffect the image at one point, and just fire the macinery, as opposed to messing at random different places to (optionally) use quickload when available...
2021-04-15T13:13:28Z phoe: jmercouris: you can try to unbind it first
2021-04-15T13:13:30Z attila_lendvai: Xach, i've written several build.sh scripts now that uses ql (thanks a whole lot BTW!). some of them optionally using ql when available, otherwise relying on the user's config. some others override the user's config and do (quasi-)reproducible builds.
2021-04-15T13:13:30Z Xach: Ok
2021-04-15T13:13:38Z jmercouris: phoe: true
2021-04-15T13:13:43Z phoe: so makunbound for symbols, fmakunbound for functions, setf find-class nil for classes, ...
2021-04-15T13:13:47Z jmercouris: I was hoping for some (declare ...) magic
2021-04-15T13:13:57Z jmercouris: maybe I can write a macro...
2021-04-15T13:14:13Z jmercouris: how about generic functions same as fmakunbound?
2021-04-15T13:14:27Z phoe: GFs are bound in the function namespace, so yes
2021-04-15T13:14:31Z jmercouris: OK
2021-04-15T13:14:32Z phoe: they're functions
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2021-04-15T13:14:42Z jmercouris: hai
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2021-04-15T13:17:33Z ldb: good evening
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2021-04-15T13:19:12Z pp: hi
2021-04-15T13:19:21Z pp: what is best lisp?
2021-04-15T13:19:27Z Xach: pp: common
2021-04-15T13:19:32Z ldb: not common
2021-04-15T13:19:44Z pp: interesting...
2021-04-15T13:20:28Z phoe: maybe the real best lisp is the friends we make along the way
2021-04-15T13:20:45Z phoe: but, anyway!
2021-04-15T13:21:06Z phoe: pp: #lisp is a Common Lisp channel, you could possibly try ##lisp for a channel for all dialects
2021-04-15T13:21:28Z pp: ok!
2021-04-15T13:22:17Z pp: do any of you use scrotwm?
2021-04-15T13:23:22Z phoe: oh
2021-04-15T13:23:32Z phoe: I think I understand now
2021-04-15T13:23:40Z ChanServ has set mode +o phoe
2021-04-15T13:23:43Z phoe has set mode +b *!*600578fa@96.5.120.*
2021-04-15T13:23:43Z pp [~phoe@2001:19f0:5:689f:5400:2ff:fe77:b1de] has been kicked from #lisp by phoe (pp)
2021-04-15T13:23:46Z ChanServ has set mode -o phoe
2021-04-15T13:24:24Z ldb: https://forum.ubuntu-fi.org/index.php?topic=43042.0
2021-04-15T13:25:03Z ldb: well, it reminds me the joke about Coq
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2021-04-15T13:25:59Z phoe: which is likely the reason they're discussing changing the name
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2021-04-15T13:31:31Z ldb: is it possible to get the file list under a dir via http?
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2021-04-15T13:33:37Z ldb: i'm looking for tools making a emacs elpa mirror via http.
2021-04-15T13:34:25Z luis: ldb: maybe #emacs can help
2021-04-15T13:34:40Z ldb: don't know what ql systems to use to write this thing in CL.
2021-04-15T13:34:58Z luis: ldb: drakma, possibly
2021-04-15T13:35:50Z ldb: luis: they uses an emacs lisp package, which doesn't support parallel download.
2021-04-15T13:36:33Z ldb: luis: thanks
2021-04-15T13:37:43Z ldb starts to learn http today
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2021-04-15T13:38:42Z luis: ldb: you will learn that plain HTTP has no standard way to list a directory
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2021-04-15T13:41:05Z ldb: we used to use rsync. recently for unknown reason the upstream rsync servies are down
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2021-04-15T14:11:32Z flip214: phoe: why did you kick? Asking about "A minimalistic tiling Window Manager for X11." is that bad?
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2021-04-15T14:11:58Z Bike: cos it looks like "scrotum"
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2021-04-15T14:12:27Z phoe: a person nicknamed peepee asking about a scrotum tripped my personal troll filter
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2021-04-15T14:13:15Z flip214: hmmm, I didn't have that sensitivity level
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2021-04-15T14:14:17Z phoe: maybe you're right though, I've had my own sensitivity levels put to some tests as of late
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2021-04-15T14:15:58Z Bike: oh, in fact they renamed it to spectrwm
2021-04-15T14:16:00Z Bike: in 2012.
2021-04-15T14:16:46Z phoe: good move
2021-04-15T14:16:56Z Bike: also it's written in C. weird. i guess pp could have been serious but talking about something weird.
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2021-04-15T14:30:04Z flip214: ah, stumpwm is the CL one
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2021-04-15T15:39:59Z Josh_2: Hey all
2021-04-15T15:40:09Z Josh_2: Is there a native lisp library I can use to resize images?
2021-04-15T15:40:23Z Josh_2: If not I will just call out to ffmpeg
2021-04-15T15:40:26Z tychoish: Hi Josh2
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2021-04-15T15:40:49Z beach: Maybe "opticl"?
2021-04-15T15:41:21Z tychoish: https://github.com/CodyReichert/awesome-cl#graphics I always just check lists like this
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2021-04-15T15:42:30Z Josh_2: I imagine I could do it with opticl
2021-04-15T15:43:01Z Josh_2: I can do it with opticl there is an example where they resize an image :)
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2021-04-15T15:46:03Z Josh_2: I doubt it can resize gifs though
2021-04-15T15:46:06Z Josh_2: ahh thats a bummer
2021-04-15T15:48:31Z Xach: Josh_2: when i was resizing a lot of images, i used run-program and imagemagick.
2021-04-15T15:48:37Z Xach: it worked fine for my scale.
2021-04-15T15:49:05Z Josh_2: Does imagemagick work with gifs?
2021-04-15T15:49:16Z Xach: Josh_2: yes
2021-04-15T15:49:17Z phoe: t
2021-04-15T15:49:24Z Josh_2: Did you use cl-magick?
2021-04-15T15:49:37Z Josh_2: or cl-imagemagick
2021-04-15T15:49:57Z Xach: No. I used run-program.
2021-04-15T15:50:08Z Josh_2: right you literally just wrote that xD
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2021-04-15T15:58:36Z Shinmera: There's also https://shinmera.github.io/trivial-thumbnail/ which uses im underneath
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2021-04-15T16:18:46Z contrapunctus: Would a native Lisp library for encoding/decoding media formats (e.g. FLAC, PNG, WebM) be of any help to the community? Or is preferable to wrap C libraries?
2021-04-15T16:19:54Z Xach: contrapunctus: opticl does a lot of that.
2021-04-15T16:20:22Z Xach: contrapunctus: i don't know how much is in pure lisp. pure lisp code for everything would be nice.
2021-04-15T16:22:28Z aeth: contrapunctus: it makes it easier to package programs
2021-04-15T16:22:37Z aeth: (when you don't use a C library, I mean)
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2021-04-15T16:27:23Z Shinmera: contrapunctus: FLAC and PNG already have native ones. WebM or any video format? Good fuckin' luck.
2021-04-15T16:29:12Z Shinmera: contrapunctus: I'd like a native decoder for OGG audio, (preferably decoding to UB8 arrays)
2021-04-15T16:29:39Z shka_: video formats are rather complex beasts
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2021-04-15T16:30:12Z shka_: and also have strict performance requirements which does not make life easier
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2021-04-15T16:31:59Z contrapunctus: Xach: I see. opticl doesn't seem to use any foreign libraries.
2021-04-15T16:31:59Z contrapunctus: aeth: I see.
2021-04-15T16:31:59Z contrapunctus: Shinmera: hm...I guess I could try that.
2021-04-15T16:34:54Z Shinmera: But yeah, ultimately the hard part isn't necessarily even the decoding, though that often is hard enough, it's also that theres' very strict performance requirements to be able to decode and play back in real time. Especially audio has very low latency periods.
2021-04-15T16:37:13Z shka_: contrapunctus: maybe something simpler?
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2021-04-15T16:38:20Z jackdaniel: contrapunctus: draft a lispy protocol for video formats in cl and start with a ffi wrapper; then you may take a jab at implementing the same protocol natively
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2021-04-15T18:26:52Z Josh_2: How do I create a directory in CL?
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2021-04-15T18:27:26Z Josh_2: I am trying to create a directory in /tmp/
2021-04-15T18:27:29Z phoe: Josh_2: (ensure-directories-exist #p"/tmp/foo/bar/")
2021-04-15T18:27:33Z Josh_2: Thanks
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2021-04-15T18:28:59Z didi: Xach: Idea: (ql:help) could list a small summary, in addition to the <https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/> pointer.
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2021-04-15T18:34:48Z daphnis: what's the normal thing to do when one needs multiple but not all values from a function?  i get these style warings about unused variables
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2021-04-15T18:34:58Z phoe: daphnis: only bind what you need
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2021-04-15T18:35:07Z Xach: declare ignore the rest
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2021-04-15T18:35:09Z phoe: (m-v-b (x y z) (values 1 2 3 4 5 6) (frob x y z))
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2021-04-15T18:35:21Z jackdaniel: (m-v-b (a b c) (foo) (declare (ignore b)) (cons a c)
2021-04-15T18:35:56Z phoe: or what jackdaniel said if these values are not in the tail position
2021-04-15T18:36:58Z daphnis: thanks
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2021-04-15T18:40:19Z didi: Ah, nice use of a restart in lparallel: "you didn't started workers, but don't sweat, tell me how many you want and I'll be on my way"
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2021-04-15T18:47:06Z shka_: didi: this is better handled by docstrings
2021-04-15T18:47:12Z attila_lendvai: i can only see two reasons for a native CL code to decode complex media formats: 1) geek value for someone learning the tech, and 2) implementing the algo in a higher level language as a serious attempt to optimize it, or demonstrate a better implementation technique. for anything else? i'd just wrap the reference implementation.
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2021-04-15T18:47:19Z shka_: you can give docstring for the whole package
2021-04-15T18:47:22Z didi: shka_: What?
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2021-04-15T18:47:51Z shka_: didi: it is lisp, if you can define it, you can attach docstring to it
2021-04-15T18:48:17Z Shinmera: attila_lendvai: shipping of C libraries on Linux is a gigantic pain in the ass. debugging problems with them as well.
2021-04-15T18:48:45Z shka_: and yes, this includes defpackage
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2021-04-15T18:53:50Z didi: shka_: Sorry, I unsure what you're talking about.
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2021-04-15T18:53:58Z didi: s/I/I'm
2021-04-15T18:54:05Z shka_: about the (ql:help) proposal
2021-04-15T18:54:11Z didi: oic
2021-04-15T18:54:38Z didi: Well, my instinct was running (ql:help).
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2021-04-15T18:55:08Z vydd: has anyone revived quickdocs?
2021-04-15T18:56:44Z attila_lendvai: Shinmera, hence my use of of the word *complex*. for simple stuff, it can overall splify life, but for anything non-trivial there's no way to keep a CL implementation anywhere near the reference one in quality
2021-04-15T18:57:57Z shka_: attila_lendvai: oh, there is a way, but there is no resources
2021-04-15T18:58:52Z attila_lendvai: shka_, you must be young... :) it's all about resources.
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2021-04-15T19:00:50Z shka_: young? thank you i guess
2021-04-15T19:01:23Z shka_: anyway, yes it is technically possible, but so time and work consuming that in practice it is just impossible
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2021-04-15T19:01:32Z jackdaniel: why can't we start wav file in the background and flip bmp files every 1/30s?
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2021-04-15T19:03:32Z shka_: heh
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2021-04-15T19:36:03Z didi: How do I keep a computation running after I disconnect from a swank server? I can reconnect to it (because of :dont-close t), but my long running computation is stopped after I disconnect.
2021-04-15T19:36:37Z aeth: threads?
2021-04-15T19:36:45Z didi: aeth: Good idea.
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2021-04-15T19:42:59Z didi: Great. And there she goes. Thank you, aeth.
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2021-04-15T21:09:48Z Josh_2: How do I stop Parenscript from adding a number to the end of some variable names?
2021-04-15T21:10:51Z Josh_2: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2390#2390 this is my PS code, PS keeps adding a number to var 'stib-container' making it something like stibContainer12
2021-04-15T21:11:03Z Josh_2: meaning the next variable which references stib-container doesn't work
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2021-04-15T21:23:28Z phoe: let*?
2021-04-15T21:23:58Z phoe: cl:let won't allow you to access previously bound variables, unlike cl:let*
2021-04-15T21:24:05Z phoe: so I expect parenscript's versions to do the same thing
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2021-04-15T22:16:22Z kagevf: Josh_2: I was able to get rid of the number if I removed the extra parentheses you had around the value being assigned to stibContainer .... like this:
2021-04-15T22:16:27Z kagevf: Josh_2: (let ((stib-container (@ document get-element-by-id) (ps:lisp "123")))
2021-04-15T22:16:29Z kagevf: (stibs (ps:@ stib-container children)) (search-bar ((ps:@ document get-element-by-id) (ps:lisp "abc"))) (search-bar-val ((ps:@ search-bar-id value))))
2021-04-15T22:18:16Z kagevf: so where you had this: (let ((stib-container (@ document get-element-by-id) (ps:lisp "123")))
2021-04-15T22:18:34Z kagevf: ((ps:@ document get-element-by-id) (ps:lisp sticker-container-id)))
2021-04-15T22:18:52Z kagevf: try removing the surrounding parentheses
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2021-04-15T22:29:56Z pp2: I got kicked earlier and i don't know why. I said scrotwm but i meant to ask about stumpwm. I am confused about what happened and sorry if i offended people
2021-04-15T22:30:13Z pp2: stumpwm is a wm for x that uses cl
2021-04-15T22:30:50Z phoe: pp2: woop, sorry about that
2021-04-15T22:31:14Z phoe: let me unban...
2021-04-15T22:31:20Z ChanServ has set mode +o phoe
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2021-04-15T22:31:48Z phoe: OK, should be good now; sorry about that, my fingers are too trigger happy at times
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2021-04-15T22:32:34Z phoe: there is a dedicated #stumpwm that you might want to join
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2021-04-15T23:24:53Z nij: Why instead of create-server on the fly, kitnil chose to embed that in a thread? Is there an obvious advantage? https://github.com/kitnil/dotfiles/blob/master/dot_stumpwm.d/swank.lisp
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2021-04-15T23:27:38Z Bike: if you have a nil communication style create-server will just loop forever
2021-04-15T23:27:51Z Bike: so you could avoid that with a thread, but you could also just change the communication style so that swank handles it for you
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2021-04-15T23:34:36Z nij: when using the thread method, it's equivalent to using a ___(?) communication style?
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2021-04-15T23:39:44Z Bike: https://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Communication-style.html#Communication-style
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2021-04-15T23:41:00Z nij: I've been reading yeah. But the thread method is a work around. I wonder what that equates to.
2021-04-15T23:41:08Z Bike: :spawn
2021-04-15T23:41:13Z Bike: roughly
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2021-04-15T23:46:17Z nij: I tried.. but am still confused.
2021-04-15T23:46:37Z nij: AFAIK, (make-thread fun1) will create a thread that runs fun1.
2021-04-15T23:46:44Z nij: Upon fun1 returns, the thread ends.
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2021-04-15T23:47:00Z nij: So if nothing special happen (make-thread fun1) is almost like (fun1)
2021-04-15T23:48:10Z nij: Then there's really not a difference between
2021-04-15T23:48:10Z nij: (sb-thread:make-thread (lambda () (swank:create-server :port (parse-integer port) :dont-close t))
2021-04-15T23:48:10Z nij: and
2021-04-15T23:48:10Z nij: (funcall (lambda () (swank:create-server :port (parse-integer port) :dont-close t)))
2021-04-15T23:48:13Z nij: and
2021-04-15T23:48:16Z nij: (swank:create-server :port (parse-integer port)).. no?
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2021-04-15T23:48:20Z nij:  
2021-04-15T23:48:42Z Bike: consider the difference between (loop) and (make-thread (lambda () (loop)))
2021-04-15T23:50:34Z nij:  
2021-04-15T23:50:34Z nij: yeah the only difference seems that it can run parallelly
2021-04-15T23:50:52Z Bike: meaning the make-thread version will not hang, yes.
2021-04-15T23:51:37Z nij: oh! it could be more robust indeed
2021-04-15T23:51:46Z nij: even if it hangs, it hangs in itself
2021-04-15T23:52:44Z nij: thanks :)
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2021-04-16T00:06:03Z Bike: i mean, swank with nil communication style is an actual loop, it hangs intentionally
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2021-04-16T00:47:24Z nij: Hello! After I start a swank/slynk server, how do I check (in that repl) how many ports have been listening, and how many ports have been connected to how many instances?
2021-04-16T00:47:42Z nij: (I'm not looking for `M-x sly-list-connections`)
2021-04-16T00:49:44Z Josh_2: phoe: it was that. Thanks
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2021-04-16T03:03:49Z mfiano: Good luck to everyone participating in the Lisp Game Jam! We begin in 1 hour.
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2021-04-16T03:10:51Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-04-16T04:00:00Z pagnol: Anyone here who has done natural language generation? Maybe in languages other than English?
2021-04-16T04:01:05Z beach: pagnol: If you have a question, it is usually better just to ask it than to wait for someone to admit to working in that domain.
2021-04-16T04:01:32Z pagnol: beach: I don't have any questions, I would just love to hear from people
2021-04-16T04:01:37Z beach: ... unless you just want to hang out with these people and buy them beer.
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2021-04-16T04:01:47Z beach: OK, I see.
2021-04-16T04:01:49Z pagnol: the latter
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2021-04-16T04:23:08Z edgar-rft: I think I do natural language generation whenever I talk...
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2021-04-16T04:44:48Z thermo: i've done natural language generation, but not in lisp
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2021-04-16T04:45:43Z thermo: you are welcome to buy me beer
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2021-04-16T05:12:07Z pagnol: edgar-rft: also in languages other than English?
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2021-04-16T05:26:10Z jackdaniel: I generate natural language every day with my vocal cords and fingers, does it qualify for a beer? :)
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2021-04-16T05:26:54Z thomasb06: it qualifies for a Jack Daniel
2021-04-16T05:27:09Z jackdaniel: even better then
2021-04-16T05:27:20Z thomasb06: ;p
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2021-04-16T07:00:58Z daphnis: is there a cl libraray for emitting various sorts of beeps/tones?
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2021-04-16T07:15:33Z Shinmera: You can use cl-mixed for that. https://github.com/Shirakumo/cl-mixed/blob/master/examples/tone.lisp
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2021-04-16T07:19:18Z daphnis: Shinmera: thanks!
2021-04-16T07:20:14Z Shinmera: There's also Harmony which presents a higher-level interface. Unfortunately I haven't gotten around to writing extensive docs for either :(
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2021-04-16T08:36:29Z Nilby: spiral_fft >:-( sbcl optimizer: "am i a joke to you?"
2021-04-16T08:37:41Z Shinmera: ?
2021-04-16T08:38:02Z Shinmera: spiral is in another entire ballpark.
2021-04-16T08:38:09Z Shinmera: so... yes.
2021-04-16T08:38:45Z Nilby: It bothers me in some way I didn't even know
2021-04-16T08:38:58Z Shinmera: I don't understand.
2021-04-16T08:39:37Z Nilby: Like is there even hope for humans to be programmers
2021-04-16T08:41:03Z Shinmera: Uh, sure. All the transforms and inputs spiral works with are human made. There's a lot of engineering ingenuity behind it.
2021-04-16T08:42:54Z Shinmera: The theory behind Spiral that allows it to generate code this efficient is quite interesting, but also quite off-topic.
2021-04-16T08:44:33Z Nilby: Yes. I was just wondering if there would be any hope to write such things like ffts and dcts and such in lisp and have any understanding when looking at a #'disassemble output
2021-04-16T08:45:14Z Shinmera: there's multiple fft libraries in lisp already iirc.
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2021-04-16T08:46:06Z Nilby: But if they have a 30x slowdown vs geneticly searched code..
2021-04-16T08:47:16Z Nilby: I must be a cavedweller since I guess modern ML bugs me too
2021-04-16T08:47:29Z Shinmera: I have no idea what you're on about.
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2021-04-16T08:48:23Z scymtym: there is https://github.com/pkhuong/Napa-FFT3 which also makes heavy use of domain knowledge instead of relying on the compiler
2021-04-16T08:48:24Z Nilby: Sorry. Anyway your cl-mixed library is quite interesting.
2021-04-16T08:51:02Z Nilby: scymtym: Thanks. That actually makes me feel better, even if pkhuong is too smart for me to fully understand.
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2021-04-16T08:52:53Z Shinmera: I would love a Lisp backend for Spiral.
2021-04-16T08:53:54Z scymtym: Nilby: sure. and yes, pkhuong is something else
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2021-04-16T08:55:17Z Nilby: Shinmera: One could just fairly mechanically translate it's C into Lisp, since it's incomprehensible anyway, but I'm not sure it would retain it's properties.
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2021-04-16T08:56:05Z Shinmera: It would not. It would also be hard because at least te x86 generated code makes use of vector extensions
2021-04-16T08:56:12Z Shinmera: support for which is... well.
2021-04-16T08:57:54Z Nilby: I'm guessing you had to do libmixed in C for real performance issues?
2021-04-16T08:58:09Z Shinmera: it has brought me much anguish, but yes.
2021-04-16T08:58:20Z Shinmera: Real-time audio has very strict constraints.
2021-04-16T08:58:55Z Shinmera: I've still put a bunch of stuff into Lisp land, mostly the I/O parts at the ends that are cl-mixed extensions.
2021-04-16T08:59:11Z Nilby: You're a good to suffer the anguish for a good cause.
2021-04-16T08:59:24Z Shinmera: and libmixed is written in such a way that you can still integrate with it from lisp if you want to prototype.
2021-04-16T09:00:49Z Nilby: I'm still trying to keep my code all Lisp above the kernel, so I a can someday port to a LispOS, but I'm sure you know the difficulties.
2021-04-16T09:02:18Z Shinmera: I'm now in the business of having to sell stuff to people, and the sales numbers for people on a lispos would be way too low to bother supporting :)
2021-04-16T09:04:50Z Shinmera: In fact I'm even strongly considering dropping support for macOS, because the amount of effort required to keep up with Apple's constant stream of turds is probably not worth the earnings.
2021-04-16T09:05:10Z Nilby: Of course. One must get the art in front of the people
2021-04-16T09:05:29Z Nilby: That's sad, but sensible
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2021-04-16T09:06:24Z splittist: "I've suffered for my art. Now it's your turn."
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2021-04-16T09:07:26Z splittist: Shineraware is like an Aladdin's cave of goodness, by the way. So many thanks for all that.
2021-04-16T09:07:45Z Nilby: Big agree!
2021-04-16T09:07:51Z no-defun-allowed: A Lisp port of JEP 338 could be nice, except that a fallback without vector registers would probably be dog slow.
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2021-04-16T09:08:37Z Shinmera: splittist: Aw, thank you very much!
2021-04-16T09:10:10Z Shinmera: no-defun-allowed: trivial-vectors, here we come :^)
2021-04-16T09:10:34Z no-defun-allowed: Though I live off all the non-trivial instructions like PMOVMSKB
2021-04-16T09:11:30Z no-defun-allowed: Wouldn't mind some automatic vectorisation too. Just a bit, as a treat.
2021-04-16T09:13:18Z Shinmera: no-defun-allowed: by the way have you looked into using intel vtune to instrumetn your hash table efforts? I've found it quite useful to see what the processor is spending its time doing back when I had to do a project for low level optimisation.
2021-04-16T09:13:59Z no-defun-allowed: I have not. Would it work well with SBCL (and knowing Intel, an AMD processor)?
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2021-04-16T09:14:19Z Shinmera: SBCL should work yes, but AMD probably not.
2021-04-16T09:14:52Z no-defun-allowed: Though I was bummed out to read that Zen 1 only has a 128-bit vector doohickey, so I wouldn't have much of a chance at getting better throughput moving to AVX2 on this desktop.
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2021-04-16T09:18:56Z no-defun-allowed: Then if you have a NUMA machine, a metadata table is often a bad idea. And the trained eye will notice resizing is not wait-free. Lots of fun stuff.
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2021-04-16T09:23:06Z Nilby: I feel like all this harware that makes things hard is actually crap, there's a much better architecture, that doesn't have a bit width, and where we don't have to push electrons around so hard.
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2021-04-16T09:25:15Z no-defun-allowed: Usually, eh, I don't mind it so much, but I took a peep at register allocation today, and x86-64 has a bit of what us software people might call "cruft". But if you have backwards compatibility with the original IBM PC, then cruft is what you get.
2021-04-16T09:26:41Z Nilby: definitely lots of cruft in that silicon
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2021-04-16T14:00:23Z jcowan: In some domains there is no hope for "programmers".  The original programmers were people who took code written in assembler by "analysts" and traanslated it into ones and zeros.  Nobody does that any more, fortunately.
2021-04-16T14:01:24Z jackdaniel: and yet quality of that software banged with rocks was much more meticulus than many things written today
2021-04-16T14:01:27Z jcowan: Closer to our own time, who would write an LALR(1) parser nowadays without a yacc equivalent?  Much better to write rules and semantic fragments.
2021-04-16T14:01:50Z jackdaniel: we've made spacecraft possible with 16kb of ram, you can't open the text editor
2021-04-16T14:01:54Z jackdaniel: with 16gb ;D
2021-04-16T14:01:57Z jcowan: jackdaniel: It had to be, since "programmers" were cheeap and machine time was unbelievably expensive.
2021-04-16T14:02:42Z jackdaniel: I think that this is not the whole story, but that's offtopic anyway
2021-04-16T14:02:48Z jcowan: The more skilled programmers become and the cheaper computers become, the more the emphasis shifts.  Airplane embedded programming is still done very carefully.
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2021-04-16T14:05:18Z Odin- glances at Boeing.
2021-04-16T14:06:15Z Josh_2: Who doesn't love Electron products
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2021-04-16T14:11:32Z splittist: And yet we still obsess over performance.
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2021-04-16T14:12:24Z Xach: splittist: now performance tuning means saving money on AWS bills
2021-04-16T14:13:06Z splittist predicts that by the time trivial-treeshaker is developed and adopted the average lisp implementation will fit in a single neoTCP packet
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2021-04-16T14:15:46Z splittist: More constructively, I invite suggestions for a "baby's first ORM" to play with
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2021-04-16T14:23:57Z attila_lendvai: splittist, there's hu.dwim.perec ; it works pretty well with the postgresql backend
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2021-04-16T14:32:58Z remby: what parsing generator library would you recommend? I see quite a few on cliki.net
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2021-04-16T14:48:04Z splittist: remby: I have fun with esrap sometimes
2021-04-16T14:50:59Z Shinmera: splittist: ORMs are bad, mkay.
2021-04-16T14:51:55Z lotuseater: i recently stumbled upon a package for parser combinators
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2021-04-16T15:02:38Z remby: heh I just realized lisp would be a great language for a lalr parser
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2021-04-16T15:03:38Z remby: esrap looks good
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2021-04-16T15:58:06Z Josh_2: With Parenscript how can I give a javascript variable a lisp name?
2021-04-16T15:59:27Z Josh_2: kinda hard to describe but right now I have had to write (ps:lisp (format stream "var ~A;" <my var>)) to get it to initialize the variable
2021-04-16T15:59:52Z Josh_2: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2391#2391
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2021-04-16T16:14:40Z kagevf: Josh_2: that link just shows some json ... was that the intention?
2021-04-16T16:15:32Z Josh_2: Shows my JS
2021-04-16T16:16:30Z Josh_2: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2393#2393 here this is the code I'm basically trying to serialize a CL object into some javascript, store that under a variable name in a top level script which can be referenced in another part of my webpage
2021-04-16T16:17:14Z Josh_2: but I'm having to add that (ps:lisp (format ..)) in order to get var <variable-name>; to appear in the outputted JS, I'm trying to avoid that hackery
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2021-04-16T16:37:39Z kagevf: Josh_2: would something like this work? https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2394#2394
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2021-04-16T21:08:05Z Josh_2: kagevf: no that doesn't work :(
2021-04-16T21:08:50Z Josh_2: For each stib in stibs I'd expect output like https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2395#2395
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2021-04-16T21:15:08Z jasom: Josh_2: can you not use a macro?
2021-04-16T21:17:50Z jasom: Josh_2: or backquote and ps*?
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2021-04-16T21:23:12Z jasom: Josh_2: did you try (defvar (ps:lisp unique-id))?
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2021-04-16T21:23:57Z jasom: oh, I see that doesn't work
2021-04-16T21:24:25Z jasom: (ps:ps* `(defvar ,unique-id)) does work though
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2021-04-16T21:26:29Z jasom: (ps:defpsmacro var (name) `(defvar ,(eval name))) works as well, but is ugly
2021-04-16T21:27:50Z jasom: with the above macro you can do: (ps:ps (var (ps:lisp 'foo)))
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2021-04-16T21:30:01Z jasom: ignore the last 2 lines, they don't work because the binding isn't available at macroexpand time.  Either use ps* or the raw format you currently use
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2021-04-16T21:56:50Z kagevf: what's the difference between ps:ps and ps:ps* ? I didn't really understand the difference reading the tutorial ...
2021-04-16T21:57:15Z kagevf: is it some kind of shorthand for defmacro?
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2021-04-16T22:10:03Z jasom: kagevf: ps:ps* evaluates the argument
2021-04-16T22:11:15Z jasom: ps:ps processes the parenscript at macroexpand time, so must take literal parenscript forms
2021-04-16T22:13:09Z jasom: (let ((x 3)) (list (ps:ps x) (ps:ps* x))) => ("x;" "3;")
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2021-04-16T22:17:31Z kagevf: nice examples - thank you, jasom ! It's much clearer now
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2021-04-16T22:21:20Z jasom: Josh_2: derp, do this instead of the format expression: (ps:lisp `(defvar ,unique-id))
2021-04-16T22:21:40Z jasom forgot the results of ps:lisp go through parenscript processing
2021-04-16T22:22:13Z jasom: (let ((foo 'bar)) (ps:ps (ps:lisp `(defvar ,foo)))) ;=> "var bar;"
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2021-04-16T22:50:32Z kagevf: I keep trying to use ps:symbol-to-js-string for this and it just blows up
2021-04-16T22:51:04Z jasom: kagevf: example?
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2021-04-16T22:51:44Z kagevf: this or slight variations of: (ps:ps (defvar (ps:symbol-to-js-string 'foo)))
2021-04-16T22:52:02Z jasom: kagevf: (ps:ps (defvar foo))
2021-04-16T22:52:30Z jasom: ps:symbol-to-js-string returns a string; defvar needs a literal symbol.
2021-04-16T22:52:54Z kagevf: right ... I think your solutions are better and more concise ... but if I didn't have those I think symbol-to-js-string is what I would try to use in my ignorance
2021-04-16T22:53:47Z kagevf: so is it better to think of it has an actual string in JS as opposed to the sting that's output by ps?
2021-04-16T22:53:56Z kagevf: maybe that's the connection I'm not making
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2021-04-16T22:58:47Z kagevf: alright ... this looks like what the intended usage for that function is:
2021-04-16T22:59:20Z jasom: ps transforms s-expressions into strings.  A string (which is what symbol-to-js-string) in the s-expression will always output a string in javascript.
2021-04-16T22:59:36Z kagevf: (ps:ps* `(defvar foo ,(ps:symbol-to-js-string 'bar))) => var foo = \"bar\";
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2021-04-16T23:00:54Z jasom: kagevf: right
2021-04-16T23:01:37Z kagevf: is that typical usage of symbol-to-js-string?
2021-04-16T23:01:42Z kagevf: what I wrote, I mean
2021-04-16T23:02:01Z jasom: kagevf: the typical usage of symbol-to-js-string is not to use it?
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2021-04-16T23:02:07Z kagevf: haha ok
2021-04-16T23:02:10Z jasom: kagevf: or maybe for parsing json in a way that is compatible
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2021-04-16T23:03:18Z kagevf: "SYMBOL-TO-JS-STRING is the Parenscript function responsible for translating Common Lisp symbols to JavaScript identifiers" <-- that part in the reference is a little confusing, in light of what's been demonstrated here today
2021-04-16T23:03:24Z jasom: e.g. if your json library makes a hash-table you can (gethash (ps:symbol-to-js-string 'foo-bar) ...) to use the same identifiers in your PS as when you get from JSON
2021-04-16T23:03:47Z jasom: kagevf: *ah* it's used *internally* for doing that.
2021-04-16T23:04:14Z kagevf: a-ha! that example you just gave reconciles that part in the reference with the actual usage
2021-04-16T23:04:15Z jasom: Right below that is the intended use: "It is helpful for writing libraries or other pieces of code that will interface with Parenscript-generated JavaScript."
2021-04-16T23:04:27Z kagevf: ok ... it's clearer now :)
2021-04-16T23:04:47Z jasom: so if you run ps on the frontend and get js on the backend, your backend will use symbol-to-js-string
2021-04-16T23:04:56Z jasom: s/get js/get json/
2021-04-16T23:07:30Z kagevf: using parenscript on the backend? on the backend I would just use regular CL and something like cl-json, right? the hashtable example you wrote makes a lot of sense though ...
2021-04-16T23:11:19Z kagevf: ok ... I think by "backend" you mean generating the parenscript that will handle the json on the server/backend, for use on the frontend ... did I understand that right?
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2021-04-17T00:55:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: kagevf: it would be sort of funny to build a workflow around parenscript and babel to avoid having to write Javascript directly
2021-04-17T00:56:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: parenscript to generate the JS, babel for round-tripping it back to parenscript and, maybe, for cleaning up identifiers
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2021-04-17T01:02:26Z kagevf: yeah, I'm not following at all how / why you would use parenscript on the server other than to generate JS as part of the output of a page so it can be used / run on the frontend
2021-04-17T01:06:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: You could always use node to run the generated javascript
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2021-04-17T01:07:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, I think "normally" you'd either compile to js files and serve them statically, or you'd compile to JS and serve it up with something like hunchentoot
2021-04-17T01:11:19Z kagevf: right ... that's what I've been doing ... the latter 2
2021-04-17T01:11:41Z kagevf: well, actually just the latter 1 ... serving from hunchentoot
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2021-04-17T01:42:50Z Josh_2: Currently I am representing lisp objects as javascript in my JS source code so that they can be referenced by other bits of JS code, no runtime overhead doing object lookups in js etc. Thanks jasom
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2021-04-17T03:04:05Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-04-17T08:04:00Z shka_: hello!
2021-04-17T08:04:11Z shka_: i am getting the following warning from the quicklisp
2021-04-17T08:04:19Z shka_: contains definition for system "cl-ppcre-test". Please only define "cl-ppcre" and secondary systems with a name starting with "cl-ppcre/" (e.g. "cl-ppcre/test") in that file
2021-04-17T08:05:17Z shka_: can I please have an example of the properly defined tests subsystem?
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2021-04-17T08:48:12Z kagevf: I get that warning too when I asdf:load-system something that uses that library
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2021-04-17T08:58:10Z splittist: That's an asdf warning. At some point it became fussy about, as it says, defsystems in the same file. So you would define (defsystem #:trivial-example (...)) and (defsystem #:trivial-example/tests (...)) But perhaps you meant something else.
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2021-04-17T09:07:50Z shka_: splittist: i think that i meant this
2021-04-17T09:08:03Z shka_: i thought that this is quicklisp thing, not the asdf
2021-04-17T09:08:16Z shka_: but ok, thanks for the explanation!
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2021-04-17T10:12:43Z sito: ciao
2021-04-17T10:12:50Z sito: !list
2021-04-17T10:13:41Z beach: Hello sito.
2021-04-17T10:14:20Z beach: sito: Are you new here?  I don't recognize your nick.
2021-04-17T10:22:00Z shka_: sito: hi!
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2021-04-17T13:06:24Z shka_: hello
2021-04-17T13:06:45Z shka_: any trick you people recommend for testing that a method was called?
2021-04-17T13:06:58Z shka_: i think that i would SIGNAL something
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2021-04-17T14:34:32Z Shinmera: ? in what context
2021-04-17T14:34:37Z Shinmera: debugging?
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2021-04-17T16:27:41Z shka_: Shinmera: unit tests
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2021-04-17T16:37:37Z raeda: As in code coverage? The cookbook might have what you're looking for https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/testing.html#code-coverage
2021-04-17T16:38:00Z CL-ASHOK: anybody have an example of "defprepared" in postmodern?
2021-04-17T16:38:08Z CL-ASHOK: hard to follow the documentaiton
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2021-04-17T16:58:30Z phoe: shka_: a method? sounds like a job for a toplevel :AROUND, as long as your code does not use that internally
2021-04-17T17:00:06Z kagevf: CL-ASHOK did you try looking at this? https://marijnhaverbeke.nl/postmodern/postmodern.html
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2021-04-17T17:00:30Z kagevf: it looks like the way to parameterize queries is to have $1 $2 etc in the sql ...
2021-04-17T17:02:10Z CL-ASHOK: kagevf I did, but it's hard to follow "This is the macro-style variant of prepare. It is like prepare, but gives the function a name which now becomes a top-level function for the prepared statement. The name should not a string but may be quoted."
2021-04-17T17:03:26Z CL-ASHOK: Does something like this: (doquery (:select 'x 'y :from 'some-imaginary-table) (x y)
2021-04-17T17:03:26Z CL-ASHOK:   (format t "On this row, x = ~A and y = ~A.~%" x y))
2021-04-17T17:03:37Z kagevf: CL-ASHOK: there are a few examples using the argument placeholders like $1 ... maybe enough to figure out how to apply to your code ...
2021-04-17T17:03:47Z CL-ASHOK: quote the parameters so that it avoids sql injection?
2021-04-17T17:04:36Z kagevf: CL-ASHOK: that doquery in your example you just wrote doesn't have any parameters, so no danger of sql injection there
2021-04-17T17:05:00Z kagevf: can you paste the example from your code that uses parameters?
2021-04-17T17:05:50Z kagevf: also, in that document try searching for "$1" to see all the examples where it uses argument placeholders to get more ideas
2021-04-17T17:05:55Z CL-ASHOK: (defun insert-record (title body)
2021-04-17T17:05:56Z CL-ASHOK:   (query (format nil "INSERT INTO myBlogTable VALUES ('~A', '~A');" title body)))
2021-04-17T17:06:09Z CL-ASHOK: thanks, I will search for $1 in the doc now
2021-04-17T17:06:09Z kagevf: ok cool ...
2021-04-17T17:06:25Z kagevf: what if you did something like ...
2021-04-17T17:07:08Z kagevf: (query "INSERT INTO myBlogTable VALUES ($1, $2);" title body)
2021-04-17T17:07:28Z CL-ASHOK: will that prevent sql injection for title and body?
2021-04-17T17:07:33Z kagevf: yes
2021-04-17T17:07:42Z CL-ASHOK: wow - such an easy fix - thank you!
2021-04-17T17:07:42Z kagevf: that's how you parameterize a sql query
2021-04-17T17:08:34Z kagevf: anyway .... try and test it first before thanking me ... I've never used postmodern, but that's how it works with other sql libs
2021-04-17T17:10:29Z kagevf: to test it, you can try injecting commands to make sure like making body be set to "'some text'); select 'test' --" (maybe get a better example online, but that's the basic idea)
2021-04-17T17:15:07Z CL-ASHOK: Thanks
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2021-04-17T17:18:05Z kagevf: liked your article btw, keep up the good work CL-ASHOK :)
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2021-04-17T17:20:22Z CL-ASHOK: Thanks @kagevf :)
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2021-04-17T17:27:59Z shka_: phoe: well, it's ok, i can mock
2021-04-17T17:28:04Z shka_: so that's fine
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2021-04-17T17:36:34Z CL-ASHOK: @kagevf - working now:)  Ended up with this: (postmodern:query "SELECT * from function_table where fid = $1;" fid)
2021-04-17T17:37:06Z CL-ASHOK: without parametrisation, I was able to successfully inject SQL
2021-04-17T17:37:10Z CL-ASHOK: now it throughs an error
2021-04-17T17:37:37Z CL-ASHOK: throws*
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2021-04-17T18:31:39Z splittist: signals a condition
2021-04-17T18:35:58Z lotuseater: has anyone good experiences with LTK for writing a gui application?
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2021-04-17T18:57:38Z edgar-rft: lotuseater: depends on how complex the GUI is, for simple GUIs upto to semi-complex it's pretty easy to use
2021-04-17T19:00:46Z edgar-rft: The main performanc bottleneck is the stream between CL and Tk, if you need to transfer lots of data back and forth between CL and TK the GUI becomes rather sluggish, but I think that's the case with *all* GUIs
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2021-04-17T19:05:50Z lotuseater: edgar-rft: a friend of mine asked me to write him a simple gui with some data handling for his work that should run on windows
2021-04-17T19:06:20Z lotuseater: but I'm not much experienced with gui stuff, just McCLIM yet a bit
2021-04-17T19:07:52Z lotuseater: i tried the examples, but got a message "couldn't find wish file"
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2021-04-17T20:44:14Z kagevf: @CL-ASHOK - nice!!
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2021-04-17T21:23:17Z jcowan: IMO "?" is neither necessary nor sufficient in a reasonable programming language
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2021-04-17T21:26:17Z Lycurgus: is the notion of controlled natural language as a programming language also inacceptable?
2021-04-17T21:26:33Z jcowan: Functions that correctly convert a native string to a properly quoted and escaped SQL string prevent SQL injection attacks, and with (concatenate "SELECT" (column-names c1 c2 c3) "FROM" (table-names t1 t2)) you can execute a dynamic query safely.
2021-04-17T21:27:45Z jcowan: so column-names and table-names quote names correctly (double quotes), add commas between arguments, etc.
2021-04-17T21:27:54Z Lycurgus: you know in these times it's generally all dynamic queries. I doubt the random programmer even knows the distinction between static and dynamic sql
2021-04-17T21:28:24Z jcowan: By dynamic I mean you can dynamically choose the tables to query and the results to return.
2021-04-17T21:28:42Z jcowan: hyper-dynamic if you will.
2021-04-17T21:29:11Z Lycurgus: by dynamic i mean the access plan is compiled at run time
2021-04-17T21:30:58Z Lycurgus: yeah I call that a query facility or whatever, not even programming as such
2021-04-17T21:31:29Z Lycurgus: a user (possibly a technical one) interface to a relational store
2021-04-17T21:32:27Z Lycurgus: by the time a user is there, using one they are trusted
2021-04-17T21:32:54Z Lycurgus: not as much as at a general db controlling interface, but a trusted user anyway
2021-04-17T21:33:12Z Lycurgus: rather than somebody attempting sql injection over a web interfaces
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2021-04-18T00:19:36Z nij: Hello! If I have a lisp program that's compiled in a binary, is it possible to get access to the variables defined within in a repl?
2021-04-18T00:20:12Z nij: In other words.. can I "quickload" the binary in a repl, or by means of some other equivalence?
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2021-04-18T00:26:49Z tychoish: nij: you can start a swank server in the binary and then lime into it?
2021-04-18T00:26:52Z tychoish: slime into it
2021-04-18T00:27:52Z nij: Hm.. what if I want many binaries' functions at the same time? For example, with uncompiled lisp files I can (ql:quickload :alexandria) (ql:quickload :local-time) .... etc.
2021-04-18T00:28:09Z nij: But if I use swank, I can only get into one of them (iirc).
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2021-04-18T00:30:58Z tychoish: perhaps I'm misunderstanding what your goal is, but I don't think that's true? once you've got a repl, it's a repl
2021-04-18T00:31:11Z tychoish: becuase the "lisp binary" is just the lisp
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2021-04-18T00:33:22Z nij: tychoish: hmm.. I mean if I have pkg1 and pkg2 both in binary form.
2021-04-18T00:33:42Z nij: I can start pkg1, start a swank, and link to that swank from emacs. Now I'm in a repl that's linked to pkg1.
2021-04-18T00:33:52Z nij: How to further get reach of pkg2?
2021-04-18T00:35:37Z tychoish: compile them both into the same binary
2021-04-18T00:36:06Z tychoish: do (use-package) etc
2021-04-18T00:36:23Z nij: If that's not an option? I'm working with guix, where the cl packages are all packaged.
2021-04-18T00:36:27Z nij: (separately)
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2021-04-18T00:36:40Z nij: I can of course repackage them.. but that doesn't make much more sense to me..
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2021-04-18T02:00:51Z tychoish: sorry, nij I was away... I dunno, I think you can either deal with guix and it's packages or have userland quicklisp packages and static binaries, but it's really hard to live in both worlds, and doesn't really get you much. I'd talk to the guix people if you're still having problems?
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2021-04-18T02:47:56Z Bike: nij: when you say a lisp "binary", what do you mean? an executable?
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2021-04-18T02:52:38Z nij: Bike, yes, an executable.
2021-04-18T02:53:01Z Bike: so like, guix gives you an executable of, say, sbcl with local-time loaded into it?
2021-04-18T02:53:12Z Bike: and a different executable of sbcl with alexandria loaded into it?
2021-04-18T02:55:49Z nij: i think so
2021-04-18T02:56:30Z nij: Or more generally, I think I am more comfortable with the code in itself.. but for it to run faster, they should be compiled. And I want to be comfortable with them too.
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2021-04-18T02:58:51Z Bike: you could distribute FASLs, though formats are unfortunately unstable.
2021-04-18T02:59:22Z Bike: but i don't think doing separate executables would be reasonable. a lisp executable is usually a memory image dump. you can't compose them.
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2021-04-18T03:10:02Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-04-18T03:11:07Z nij: lemme try to really get a compiled file on guix.
2021-04-18T03:11:12Z nij: good morning!
2021-04-18T03:11:18Z Bike: fasls are compiled, to be clear
2021-04-18T03:11:45Z Bike: but as far as i remember sbcl makes no guarantees that fasls produced by even different runtimes of the same version are compatible, which isn't really amenable for packaging things up
2021-04-18T03:11:52Z nij: just not to the binary form?
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2021-04-18T03:12:06Z Bike: fasls contain machine code
2021-04-18T03:12:11Z Bike: i mean, depending on the implementation
2021-04-18T03:12:21Z Bike: but usually. sbcl's do, ccl's do, etc
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2021-04-18T03:12:37Z Bike: it's just not a system object file.
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2021-04-18T03:16:23Z nij: Hmm.. maybe lemme ask a more practical question.
2021-04-18T03:16:52Z nij: Here's a directory tree structure that contains alexandria on guix: https://bpa.st/FZVA
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2021-04-18T03:17:25Z nij: Suppose I have many of them (so not just alexandria, but also other lisp systems), how to I make use of them while developing?
2021-04-18T03:18:09Z Bike: (asdf:load-system :alexandria) probably
2021-04-18T03:18:19Z nij: I used to use (ql:quickload) and am happy with that. At the end of my work, I'd move xyz in (ql:quickload xyz) to asd file.
2021-04-18T03:18:56Z nij: Hmm lemme try that!
2021-04-18T03:19:11Z Bike: i mean, that's pretty much the same as quickload, or rather that's what quickload does
2021-04-18T03:19:51Z nij: Right.. but now all these directories are scattered in /gnu/store on guix systems..
2021-04-18T03:20:58Z Bike: what?
2021-04-18T03:21:25Z Bike: it looks like it configures your asdf so it will find the systems in whatever directories
2021-04-18T03:22:19Z nij: you mean guix configures my asdf so .. ?
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2021-04-18T03:27:16Z Bike: that's what the source-registry.conf.d stuff does, i believe
2021-04-18T03:27:30Z nij: Hmm.. on my side it doesn't take care of that for me at least.
2021-04-18T03:27:35Z Bike: (gotta be honest - i do not understand that part of asdf at all)
2021-04-18T03:27:45Z Bike: (i just have a broad understanding of what it does)
2021-04-18T03:27:53Z nij: I have to push the following to asdf:*central-registry* so that alexandria loads
2021-04-18T03:27:57Z nij: #P"/gnu/store/akxk3a4bmagdvwq5mafvnf0yd6ny7apb-sbcl-alexandria-1.2/share/common-lisp/sbcl/alexandria/"
2021-04-18T03:28:19Z nij: But doing this for each system seems tedious, and i have to update the path once I upgrade it as the hash changes.
2021-04-18T03:28:23Z Bike: hm, maybe you need to force it to load the registry configuration or something?
2021-04-18T03:28:41Z nij: (That's totally fine.)
2021-04-18T03:28:43Z Bike: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html#Controlling-where-ASDF-searches-for-systems here's the manual
2021-04-18T03:29:05Z Bike: unfortunately i haven't used this enough to give you specific advice
2021-04-18T03:29:25Z nij: Before I dive in the whole chapter 8, may I ask about the big picture?
2021-04-18T03:29:39Z nij: Do you mean that maybe there's a smarter way for asdf to search for packages?
2021-04-18T03:29:52Z nij: Rather than just look through the load paths and seek for asd files?
2021-04-18T03:30:18Z nij: > i haven't used this enough   ==> that's fine. If the big picture is that, I can handle the details :)
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2021-04-18T03:30:47Z Bike: right. if you look at "Configuration DSL" a little farther down you can see what you can specify
2021-04-18T03:31:23Z nij: Great to know! I will dive into this! Thanks so much :D
2021-04-18T03:31:37Z Bike: i believe this all is basically in place to allow you to use asdf in concert with whatever system package manager. but i honestly just let quicklisp dump everything into its own directory, sooooo
2021-04-18T03:31:42Z Bike: good luck, hope this helps
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2021-04-18T03:32:29Z nij: :)
2021-04-18T03:32:40Z nij: btw, what's the difference between a fasl file and a system object?
2021-04-18T03:32:52Z nij: I was trying to search for it but couldn't find an explanation.
2021-04-18T03:33:28Z Bike: so when i say "system object" i mean like a .o or .so or something - on linux an ELF file
2021-04-18T03:33:37Z Bike: something you can link in C programs
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2021-04-18T03:34:20Z Bike: object files mostly consist of a mapping from symbol names to functions (blocks of machine code)
2021-04-18T03:34:26Z nij: I'm actually more familiar with lisp than C ;).. given my shallow knowledge about lisp :P
2021-04-18T03:34:50Z nij: oh
2021-04-18T03:34:52Z Bike: lisp, however, is very side effect based, and a fasl is more of a recording of side effects - so that loading a fasl is equivalent to loading the file which is equivalent to evaluating all the expressions in order
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2021-04-18T03:35:32Z Bike: so for example if you have (defun foo ...) the side effect is to add a function binding for the FOO symbol to whatever function
2021-04-18T03:35:38Z nij: Can I make a fasl file an .o/.so easily? and vice versa?
2021-04-18T03:35:58Z nij: (Theoretically, of course, any thing is possible.)
2021-04-18T03:36:00Z Bike: No, because they are different things. an object is a mapping, a fasl is a sequence of effects.
2021-04-18T03:36:10Z nij: Yeah that's what I guess. I see.
2021-04-18T03:36:26Z Bike: (also because object code will probably use a C ABI and lisp code will probably not)
2021-04-18T03:36:26Z nij: You say an object is a mapping, which maps a name to a C function, for example.
2021-04-18T03:36:34Z nij: What is that C function? an fasl file?
2021-04-18T03:37:11Z Bike: well what an object is is a mapping from symbols to addresses, and some of those addresses are to the beginning of a block of machine code
2021-04-18T03:37:28Z Bike: fasl is a lisp-specific concept
2021-04-18T03:37:33Z nij: OH I see.
2021-04-18T03:37:56Z nij: And fasl file is different from an executable?
2021-04-18T03:39:05Z beach: Yes.
2021-04-18T03:39:06Z Bike: yes. usually a lisp executable is a smallish runtime concatenated onto a memory image. when you start the executable, it loads the entire image into memory
2021-04-18T03:39:23Z Bike: it's more like a save/load function
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2021-04-18T03:39:51Z Bike: whereas a fasl is an encoding of a sequence of side effects to do.
2021-04-18T03:39:54Z nij: I see..
2021-04-18T03:40:12Z nij: With asdf:load-system, it can load fasl files, but not executables.. is that correct?
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2021-04-18T03:40:18Z nij: (Back to asdf.. finally :D)
2021-04-18T03:40:36Z asarch: One very stupid question: Is it valid to do? (format t "This
2021-04-18T03:40:38Z asarch: is
2021-04-18T03:40:50Z Bike: yes, asdf can't load an executable into a running lisp image.
2021-04-18T03:40:57Z asarch: …
2021-04-18T03:41:02Z nij: asarch: no.. parenthesis unbalance.
2021-04-18T03:41:04Z asarch: long
2021-04-18T03:41:07Z asarch: line")
2021-04-18T03:41:35Z asarch: Or should I use here documents?
2021-04-18T03:41:41Z nij: asarch: you mean with many newlines in between? yes it works for me
2021-04-18T03:42:03Z nij: Bike: that's clear. Basically I should stay away from executables..
2021-04-18T03:42:19Z nij: unless i need to ship something out to the *world*.
2021-04-18T03:42:22Z copec: I think I’m going to get a custom license plate: X3J13
2021-04-18T03:42:22Z Bike: asarch: you can put newlines into a string literal, yes.
2021-04-18T03:42:27Z nij: reality:*world*
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2021-04-18T03:42:50Z beach: nij: An executable is an OS concept.  Only the OS knows how to start such a thing.
2021-04-18T03:43:26Z nij: I see. That matches my impression. Thanks beach :)
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2021-04-18T03:44:40Z nij: HMMM Then I'm a bit confused! Looking at the tree structure of the directory - https://bpa.st/FZVA
2021-04-18T03:45:00Z nij: Why do they (the guix folks) put .asd with .lisp files, but not with .fasl files?!
2021-04-18T03:45:32Z nij: They should put .asd with the .fasl files, no? So that when it's loaded, the faster versions (fasl) are loaded, rather than the lisp files?
2021-04-18T03:46:37Z beach: nij: On my machine, fasl files are kept separately in .cache and ASDF is configured to know that place.
2021-04-18T03:47:07Z beach: nij: They are stored in versions that depend on the Common Lisp implementation and the version of that implementation.
2021-04-18T03:47:14Z nij: Did you configured asdf to know that place by yourself? Or it's by default?
2021-04-18T03:47:27Z beach: I did no configuration.
2021-04-18T03:47:42Z nij: Hmm.
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2021-04-18T09:06:49Z alanz: nij, re the guix discussion earlier. It would make sense for a guix package to provide fasl files. It completely specifies the context they are used in terms of machine, compiler, other system deps, so they should be reproducable, relevant to your system
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2021-04-18T09:17:02Z phoe: as long as they are fully reproducible, sure, why not
2021-04-18T09:17:16Z phoe: and I don't know if FASLs are 100% reproducible
2021-04-18T09:21:42Z beach: What does it mean for a FASL to be "reproducible"?
2021-04-18T09:22:07Z phoe: different compilations produce byte-for-byte identical results
2021-04-18T09:22:36Z phoe: there's a general term, "reproducible builds", that aims for compiled artifacts to be identical for the purpose of assuring that they have not been tampered with in any way
2021-04-18T09:22:50Z phoe: and I assume that the same would apply to FASLs
2021-04-18T09:23:11Z beach: The difference between a compiler for Common Lisp and a compiler for a traditional batch language is that the Common Lisp compiler does not start with an empty compilation environment, so one must somehow specify the exact contents of the startup environment then.
2021-04-18T09:23:38Z phoe: yes, that would be necessary
2021-04-18T09:23:58Z phoe: but I'll leave figuring that out to the guix people
2021-04-18T09:24:11Z beach: Yeah, me too.
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2021-04-18T09:28:27Z MichaelRaskin: beach: picking the very specific build of the Common Lisp implementation, and the precise list of other code loaded before compiling the file in question is assumed in the discussion of reproducibility
2021-04-18T09:29:37Z MichaelRaskin: (and it's not like these questions don't have close analogues even when compiling C, it's just that the C analogues of these questions are less useful from the point of view of expressiveness)
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2021-04-18T09:34:58Z beach: MichaelRaskin: Makes sense.
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2021-04-18T10:11:39Z ldb: good evening
2021-04-18T10:15:49Z beach: Hello ldb.
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2021-04-18T11:23:27Z nij: good morning
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2021-04-18T11:29:04Z nij: alanz: Yes, I think it makes sense for guix to provide fasl files. In fact, I think that should be where the asd files point to, right? Because they run faster..
2021-04-18T11:29:45Z nij: But the asd file currently stays with the .lisp files, instead of the .fasl files, as indicated in the tree structure of a directory - https://bpa.st/FZVA
2021-04-18T11:30:37Z ldb: given that the cost of compiling CL projects is a lot cheaper than C++ or Rust, it is still good to do source distribution
2021-04-18T11:31:02Z splittist: nij: the real file is the lisp file; the fasl file is a FASt Loading version of that file. If the lisp file is newer, it should be loaded, no?
2021-04-18T11:32:23Z nij: If the lisp file is newer, it should be first turned into a newer fasl file, which should be pointed to by the asd file.. this is what I think that makes more sense..
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2021-04-18T11:33:36Z Alfr: No it doesn't, considering that asdf mostly is your build system.
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2021-04-18T11:34:04Z nij: Which part is wrong?
2021-04-18T11:34:15Z Alfr: And loading a systems usually uses the cached fals if the source files aren't newer.
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2021-04-18T11:35:11Z Alfr: Telling asdf about the fasls and not the source files, is wrong in my opinion.
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2021-04-18T11:35:29Z Alfr: s/fals/fasls/
2021-04-18T11:35:35Z nij: Oh wait! I might be confused. Lemme try something and get back to this quickly.
2021-04-18T11:37:27Z nij: Ok.. I'm pretty confused - given this tree structure, what should I tell asdf in order to load th fasl files? - https://bpa.st/FZVA
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2021-04-18T11:38:13Z nij:  (push "/gnu/store/akxk3a4bmagdvwq5mafvnf0yd6ny7apb-sbcl-alexandria-1.2/share/common-lisp/sbcl/alexandria" asdf:*central-registry*) ?
2021-04-18T11:38:33Z nij: And  (asdf:load-system :alexandria)?
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2021-04-18T11:41:25Z Alfr: nij, not sure how to configure it, as it as the defaults work for me. I think it's described here: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html#Controlling-where-ASDF-saves-compiled-files
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2021-04-18T11:42:26Z nij: Alfr: may I ask in which way it works for you?
2021-04-18T11:42:40Z nij: Does it store the fasls in the same directory with your lisps?
2021-04-18T11:43:08Z nij: Or it loads the fasls automatically even when they are not in the same directory as your asd file is?
2021-04-18T11:43:42Z Alfr: nij, as a regular user, loading a system creates fasls somewhere in ~/.cache/common-lisp/implementation/...
2021-04-18T11:44:56Z nij: I see. So you mean asdf knows that it should look at ~/.cache/common-lisp/implementation/... for the fasl files, provided that the lisp files are not renewed?
2021-04-18T11:47:42Z Alfr: That's the default behaviour, it's described at the end of section 9.3.
2021-04-18T11:48:36Z nij: Thanks so much! I'd have to see how guix configure that part. :D
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2021-04-18T12:21:46Z attila_lendvai: nij, ASDF has two concepts here: a registry of paths for source files, and something called output-translations that can be used to configure where the fasl files (any output files) are to be found
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2021-04-18T13:43:11Z nij: attila_lendvai: I figure. I think I should dig into guix's source code to see what it actually does..
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2021-04-18T14:31:39Z lukego: nij: maybe also relevant is how nixpkgs does it https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/blob/master/pkgs/development/lisp-modules/clwrapper/cl-wrapper.sh#L76-L124
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2021-04-18T14:33:09Z lukego: on nixos I do: NIX_LISP_ASDF_PATHS=/home/luke/git/myproj common-lisp.sh ...
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2021-04-18T14:51:48Z nij: lukego - do you get cl packages/systems from nix channel? How do you #'asdf:load-system from your personal nix profile?
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2021-04-18T15:26:01Z remby: has anyone done make in common lisp? I suppose they have but those terms are hard to google
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2021-04-18T15:26:16Z lukego: I'm using a package called ql2nix. This snapshots quicklisp and (via that same script) puts that into the load path. then I add my own code separately via the NIX_LISP_ASDF_PATHS var
2021-04-18T15:26:59Z lukego: nij: So I'm not using Lisp packages from upstream nixpkgs mostly because I don't think that is terribly complete. it would actually suit me fine to do that - I'm only pulling the default version of everything from the latest quicklisp anyway.
2021-04-18T15:27:32Z lukego: I haven't integrated build of my own code into nix yet actually... I'm still doing that manually from slime...
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2021-04-18T15:34:31Z beach: remby: Do you mean just a Common Lisp version of the Unix utility?
2021-04-18T15:34:38Z Josh_2: Hi
2021-04-18T15:34:46Z beach: Hello Josh_2.
2021-04-18T15:35:14Z Josh_2: Does anyone have any suggested reading for handling financial transactions? The transaction will be in JS but my backend is all CL
2021-04-18T15:35:31Z remby: beach: yeah
2021-04-18T15:35:59Z remby: seems like the type of thing someone would have made with CL's macro abilities et al.
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2021-04-18T15:36:18Z beach: remby: Oh, so use Common Lisp syntax for the Makefile?
2021-04-18T15:36:41Z remby: yeah
2021-04-18T15:37:07Z remby: basically, you get to use CL functions in the Makefile too
2021-04-18T15:37:14Z beach: I see.
2021-04-18T15:37:30Z beach: Josh_2: What kind of "financial transactions"?  Buying and selling shares, bonds, etc?
2021-04-18T15:37:38Z remby: and like the dependencies would be specified with macros I guess
2021-04-18T15:38:15Z beach: remby: I doubt it exists, but it sounds like a nice little project.
2021-04-18T15:38:31Z remby: hmm, well ok then :D
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2021-04-18T15:39:24Z remby: makefiles are not bad, but after reading one where the author tried to be ambitious I realize something like this would be a lot better
2021-04-18T15:39:51Z beach: The syntax is downright bizarre.
2021-04-18T15:40:33Z remby: I've always thought so too, but I wasn't sure if new syntax would make it easier to use
2021-04-18T15:41:39Z remby: what would be truly cool is if I could somehow translate from a makefile to this new CL makefile, but one thing at a time
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2021-04-18T15:42:05Z Josh_2: beach: nope, just selling access to software basically
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2021-04-18T15:42:14Z Josh_2: well access to a feature
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2021-04-18T15:49:11Z Josh_2: it something I've never done before so I don't want to screw it up
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2021-04-18T16:10:51Z jcowan: beach, remby: "Make is a beautiful little Prolog for the file system."  --foof (aka Alex Shinn)
2021-04-18T16:11:37Z remby: nice, didn't even think of that
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2021-04-18T16:40:16Z MichaelRaskin: remby: isn't it more or less ASDF? It seems to have some support for non-Lisp-compilation actions
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2021-04-18T16:58:20Z nij: lukego: oh yes, that's similar to my situation in guix
2021-04-18T16:58:27Z nij: i still have to rely on quicklisp..
2021-04-18T16:58:48Z nij: but i do hope to manage my cl systems with guix (or nix or other similar pm)
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2021-04-18T17:02:05Z remby: MichaelRaskin: I have not looked at asdf
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2021-04-18T17:10:34Z adlai: how much root-th of worse-is-betterness is it to supply, as the generalized boolean to the :type argument, a chosen subtype out of the hierarchy, more specific than the class name, structure name, etc?
2021-04-18T17:10:38Z adlai: clhs print-unreadable-object
2021-04-18T17:10:38Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_pr_unr.htm
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2021-04-18T17:11:19Z adlai: clhs subtypep
2021-04-18T17:11:19Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_subtpp.htm
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2021-04-18T17:12:12Z adlai: "chosen subtype" is not precise; however, there are often plausible other types that may make much more #<unreadable-object> readability
2021-04-18T17:13:20Z adlai: obviously, implementations could do undefined gymnastics if the object isn't TYPEP the requested type, without actually verifying.
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2021-04-18T17:14:02Z adlai: the purpose of this would be to print a type name that is more specific than a CLOS class name, where the type itself is possibly even as badly specified as a SATISFIES
2021-04-18T17:14:18Z adlai: clhs satisfies
2021-04-18T17:14:18Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_satisf.htm
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2021-04-18T17:16:54Z adlai: my preemptive justification for printing something other than the builtin type immediately following '#<' is that implementations obviously have tag-sized error margins with what closes the unreadable object form.
2021-04-18T17:17:40Z adlai must admit actually using print-unreadable-object on readable objects quite often, for several purposes outside the scope of this digression
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2021-04-18T17:45:10Z Shinmera: My team and I have been taking a break from working on Kandria to make a much shorter game. It's also written in Lisp, of course, and now live on Steam: https://store.steampowered.com/app/1605720/Eternia_Pet_Whisperer/
2021-04-18T17:45:22Z Shinmera: Wishlisting and sharing would be much appreciated, if it seems interesting!
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2021-04-18T17:52:43Z adlai cedes topic-of-conversation by footnoting that the return value of the following function is a good candidate for exactly such a type, since it's a built-in that can be pretty much anything, although is almost certainly not a satisfies type
2021-04-18T17:52:55Z adlai: clhs copy-pprint-dispatch
2021-04-18T17:52:55Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_cp_ppr.htm
2021-04-18T17:53:19Z Josh_2: What does adding to my wishlist do Shinmera?
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2021-04-18T17:53:38Z phoe: Shinmera: a VN engine in Common Lisp? you're getting further and further with all of that coding of yours
2021-04-18T17:53:41Z phoe claps
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2021-04-18T17:55:26Z Shinmera: Josh_2: It means steam will let you know when the game releases, but for us it's important because more wishlists tells the steam algorithm that the game is interesting, and will thus cause it to show it to more people on the steam site itself.
2021-04-18T17:55:35Z Shinmera: Josh_2: so it's important for us to reach a wider audience.
2021-04-18T17:55:58Z Shinmera: phoe: I hope to tear parts like that out of kandria and this and make them available in Trial is generic modules sometime.
2021-04-18T17:56:05Z phoe: yes, I see
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2021-04-18T18:00:34Z Josh_2: okay I will add to wishlist
2021-04-18T18:00:45Z Shinmera: Thank you very much!
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2021-04-18T18:02:52Z cobax: Does lisp have a reasonable and secret-weapon-like alternative to kubernetes and all that bloated insanity surrounding "scaling" a program to many servers horizontally more or less automatically and without configuration?
2021-04-18T18:03:13Z Shinmera: no
2021-04-18T18:03:55Z Shinmera: scaling a program well requires a lot of design that isn't down to tooling at all, though.
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2021-04-18T18:05:29Z phoe: "scaling" is not a well-defined term
2021-04-18T18:05:40Z cobax: That is what I keep being told, but I don't know if that is actually true. How do you know that is true? Or that it is necessarily true? Is there a paper that goes into the Computer Science reasons why scaling needs to be so complex and "require a lot of design" and can't just be "throw N computers into this pool of servers and it'll do what you
2021-04-18T18:05:40Z phoe: that's the main issue
2021-04-18T18:05:40Z cobax: want"?
2021-04-18T18:05:54Z phoe: cobax: what do you mean by "scaling"?
2021-04-18T18:05:58Z Josh_2: just get a faster vps, ezpz
2021-04-18T18:06:41Z cobax: What people that use kubernetes mean by it. Whatever it means, in my opinion it needs to be pushed down the abstraction stack and be as buried as "garbage collection" is, i.e. zero configuration and it happens automatically. I'm trying to understand why we're not there yet.
2021-04-18T18:06:48Z Shinmera: there's a lot of research on this that shows this in various ways, but it's also easy to realise because you can just think about things in terms of message overhead. the more you need to communicate between parts, the more overhead there is, the slower things go.
2021-04-18T18:06:51Z imode: clojure has some interesting stuff in the "highscale" whatever.
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2021-04-18T18:07:46Z phoe: what does your input look like? what does your output look like? what is the amount of data you need to process per second? what is the amount of data you need to store in some sort of databases per second? what are the latency constraints on your processing? does your input data come as a single stream, or as multiple streams? what about your output data? how does consensus look like in your system? how do
2021-04-18T18:07:52Z phoe: you want to handle network partitions and partial system outages?
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2021-04-18T18:07:56Z phoe: and that's just the tip of the iceberg
2021-04-18T18:08:08Z cobax: Shinmera: I don't understand. How many function calls I make is part of the reasoning about the program. Every program needs to think about it.
2021-04-18T18:08:47Z Shinmera: cobax: take a course on parallelism at your local university.
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2021-04-18T18:08:53Z cobax: phoe: why can't all that be answered within the program (i.e. in-band) and not on infrastructure configuration (i.e. config files for kubernetes, out-of-band of the code)?
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2021-04-18T18:10:01Z cobax: Shinmera: I am already a functional programmer, parallelism for me is automatic in all code I write, so why can't I just give my program a pool of N servers and it figures out what it needs? Why do I have to babysit it? I don't babysit the garbage collector. I am trying to understand the real difficulty here.
2021-04-18T18:10:15Z Shinmera: it's not "automatic" though
2021-04-18T18:10:20Z Shinmera: that's just a lie you've been sold.
2021-04-18T18:10:34Z cobax: Garbage collection is not automatic?
2021-04-18T18:10:44Z Shinmera: no, it doesn't scale well automatically.
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2021-04-18T18:10:53Z Shinmera: you /do/ need to babysit it at scale.
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2021-04-18T18:11:45Z cobax: but you can change it behind  the scenes without caring about the program. Just observe its behavior: does it cons a lot? switch to a generational garbage collector; does it not? switch to another... whatever. Just self-observe the program running and make choices automatically based on need.
2021-04-18T18:12:09Z Shinmera: I mean if you want to pretend everything is as simple as that then sure.
2021-04-18T18:12:18Z remby: you are asking about distributed computing?
2021-04-18T18:12:24Z remby: not sure why that would be lisp specific
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2021-04-18T18:12:34Z cobax: Well, let's say that is "some solution" but not "the best" solution. I am looking for the "some solution" that is the alternative to crazyland kubernetes.
2021-04-18T18:12:44Z cobax: Because lisp tends to solve problems more simply and smartly
2021-04-18T18:12:53Z cobax: and kubernetes is too bloated for me to be convinced it is smart
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2021-04-18T18:13:11Z remby: kubernetes is there because of other reasons
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2021-04-18T18:13:36Z remby: it looks more like an os problem to me, not language problem
2021-04-18T18:13:42Z cobax: Look at qooxlisp or clog, no other language has that type of solutions
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2021-04-18T18:14:16Z cobax: Lisp has smart people that don't care when the world tells us "oh that is too complex", lisp is where we make the impossible possible
2021-04-18T18:14:44Z imode: appreciate the enthusiasm but lisp is a design aesthetic, not a magic bullet.
2021-04-18T18:15:03Z cobax: So is "kubernetes" the final boss that we'll never simplify? I find that hard to believe. So I was trying to understand what the hullaballo is about, why the pretense that this is so complex when it just seems to be "N computers in a pool, sharing their resources". Why is that so complex?
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2021-04-18T18:15:21Z Shinmera: because it just is
2021-04-18T18:15:39Z imode: kubernetes is an overengineered mess brought to "market" by a company which.. overengineers stuff, what a surprise.
2021-04-18T18:15:51Z imode: go build and host your own servers.
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2021-04-18T18:16:06Z imode: or colocate and build a lisp-controlled cluster or something.
2021-04-18T18:16:08Z cobax: imode: there you go, you get me. Which tech is doing what k8s do, but sanely, and without bloat? Can you help me?
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2021-04-18T18:16:22Z imode: k8s does everything, so.
2021-04-18T18:16:26Z cobax: But how to achieve the "horizontal scale" people so love, where I can throw more machines at the problem?
2021-04-18T18:16:50Z imode: you don't really throw "more machines" at a problem, you throw more containers/"pods" which then tile across the available machines.
2021-04-18T18:17:08Z imode: that's a service level design decision. where you can just add more instances of your program to handle requests.
2021-04-18T18:17:16Z Alfr: cobax, in general you can't. Some algorithms are inherently sequential.
2021-04-18T18:17:25Z imode: which is fine. but you kinda have to design with that.
2021-04-18T18:19:11Z cobax: imode: I understand what you are saying but I am skeptical that this is such an inherent problem that the scaling software needs to be "coupled" with the program being scaled such that it knows about it so its design can be tailored to it. Garbage collectors at least come with a default. Where is the default "non-ideal scaling that at least scales
2021-04-18T18:19:12Z cobax: most programs reasonably"?
2021-04-18T18:20:56Z imode: "we need to be able to scale up and scale down our service to handle load at different times, and scaling down is important to save money." "okay, I'll make these specific parts of our service scalable, which means that we can continually add more of them and remove them depending on our load."
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2021-04-18T18:21:08Z imode: literally the conversation about "scale" that every company has.
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2021-04-18T18:21:37Z imode: so it's not about.. garbage collection or any small stuff, it's a larger architectural thing.
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2021-04-18T18:21:50Z cobax: imode: as a lisper I had rather all those decisions be in-band i.e. that I can make them within my lisp code and not having to configure the "general scaling software" underneath it. Just like I can switch garbage collectors from within a language.
2021-04-18T18:22:22Z cobax: I don't understand why I need to go outside my program code to make those decisions... it's un-lisp-like to be going out-of-band.
2021-04-18T18:22:23Z imode: a garbage collector is not equivalent to automatic parallelization or "automatic scalifierieriers".
2021-04-18T18:22:48Z cobax: Okay, what is equivalent to automatic parallelization? Is it a totally unique problem?
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2021-04-18T18:23:04Z imode: how about you describe what you want.
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2021-04-18T18:24:05Z cobax: imode: okay, give me a minute to phrase it in my head
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2021-04-18T18:26:03Z Josh_2: imode: I think I've killed a few werewolves with lisp
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2021-04-18T18:26:28Z Josh_2: silver is a pretty good consolation
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2021-04-18T18:27:38Z cobax: imode: if I code 100% functionally, no state, as I do (I use algebraic effects, the call/cc's disappear when I compile), then I want to take advantage of the fact that my code (as 100% FP) can scale automatically without my having to do anything to it. Kubernetes can't appreciate the work I did on my code. I need a smart thing that appreciates it
2021-04-18T18:27:38Z cobax: and runs it at scale, on this or that server, I don't care, just scale as needed and without my input.
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2021-04-18T18:28:18Z imode: the problem is that, again, data dependencies within your program dictate whether or not you can auto-parallelize things.
2021-04-18T18:28:46Z cobax: imode: so then the program in charge of scaling can see that and not try to scale the unscalable bits. Still, should be zero configuration, no?
2021-04-18T18:28:48Z imode: but that's, again, parallelism on a single machine.
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2021-04-18T18:29:01Z cobax: Yeah, I want across many machines = horizontal scaling.
2021-04-18T18:29:08Z imode: hadoop is your friend, then.
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2021-04-18T18:29:25Z cobax: I want to seamlessly run a program on top of however many computers, and I want those two things as decoupled as possible.
2021-04-18T18:29:28Z imode: "horizontal scaling" doesn't mean "on many machines", necessarily.
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2021-04-18T18:29:47Z imode: could be multiple processes on a single machine that are exact replicas of each other.
2021-04-18T18:30:03Z cobax: imode: another way to phrase it: I want a super-duper-pro DevOps person to scale a Hello World awesomely and professionaly for me so I can grab what he did and replace the Hello World with whatever program I want, forever into the future.
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2021-04-18T18:30:24Z cobax: That is what I don't understand why we don't have.
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2021-04-18T18:30:37Z cobax: imode: I stand corrected re horizontal scaling.
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2021-04-18T18:31:19Z imode: you should probably learn how existing services are implemented in a "scalable" fashion before trying to dissect why something isn't present in a language ecosystem.
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2021-04-18T18:32:08Z imode: k8s was designed to work with heterogeneous workloads, meaning stuff written in different languages communicating over network protocols.
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2021-04-18T18:32:24Z imode: which is neat. means you can spin up pods and have them talk to other pods.
2021-04-18T18:32:25Z Josh_2: cobax: sounds to me like you have a cool project to start
2021-04-18T18:32:33Z cobax: imode: I am a Computer Scientist. DevOps people give me lots of excuse, but they never tell me the Computer Science reason why I can't automatically scale a 100% functional program on multiple hardware and cpus with zero config. I wanted to know that reason so I can go against it on my own and win over it and show people it's silly. Because I bet
2021-04-18T18:32:33Z cobax: it is silly.
2021-04-18T18:32:58Z remby: just use plan9 m8
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2021-04-18T18:33:03Z cobax: "heterogenous workloads" sounds like something the programming language should care about and not the thing in charge of making the bytes run in many machines.
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2021-04-18T18:33:30Z cobax: Josh_2: yes but first I need to understand which Computer Science problem I am tackling here.
2021-04-18T18:33:43Z cobax: No one can tell me that despite everyone being an expert in what I cannot do.
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2021-04-18T18:34:04Z markasoftware: There are no large-scale practical "pure fp" applications, so there's no need for such software
2021-04-18T18:34:22Z imode: well, as a computer scientist, and a software engineer for a large company (read: amazon), there's a lot more to "making code run fast" than just parallelizing the nonsense out of it.
2021-04-18T18:34:50Z markasoftware:  almost every large scale application i can think of uses a persistent database, for one
2021-04-18T18:35:08Z cobax: markasoftware: that is true but no out of impossibility. It is true simply out of inertia. I am ahead of the curve so yes, my software as of today is 100% functional. And I don't have anything to configure that I want to say, I just want my code to run in as many computers as it needs, I should only care about paying the bills.
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2021-04-18T18:35:23Z imode: "I am ahead of the curve" vibe check.
2021-04-18T18:35:27Z markasoftware: how would you code Twitter with pure fp? Where would you store the tweets?
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2021-04-18T18:35:32Z remby: markasoftware: what if it's in memory :P
2021-04-18T18:35:44Z cobax: imode: ah, so you profit from trying to convince me that this is so complex so I should just use AWS to scale...
2021-04-18T18:35:52Z cobax: wrong person to ask!
2021-04-18T18:35:53Z imode: yeah, despite not working within AWS.
2021-04-18T18:36:06Z imode: I'm totally a shill for lex lutho- I mean, bezos.
2021-04-18T18:36:18Z remby: lmao
2021-04-18T18:36:27Z markasoftware: dbnr datastore will conquer all
2021-04-18T18:36:27Z cobax: sure, but still. You're going to believe that what Amazon is doing is necessary.
2021-04-18T18:36:41Z markasoftware: s/dbnr/bknr
2021-04-18T18:36:45Z imode: nice assumption but I'm there for the pay.
2021-04-18T18:36:46Z markasoftware: i don't know how i managed that
2021-04-18T18:37:22Z cobax: imode: is this not ahead of the curve? - variables without set!, immutable stacks and immutable dynamic variables: https://gist.github.com/abstraktio/0d8dab55c86fe40f311e505a119d71d3
2021-04-18T18:37:28Z cobax: imode: or is that code just a vibe?
2021-04-18T18:37:29Z imode: here's a conversation. "I want this part of my app, which communicates with this other part of my app, to be tiled across multiple machines." "okay, now how will you get the two parts of your app to communicate when they're not on the same machine, network protocols?" "I dunno, I want that figured out for me." "kinda depends on what you want, whether you need fast or reliable transports." "Can't my
2021-04-18T18:37:31Z imode: compiler figure that out for me?" "not without hints, because it doesn't understand your intent."
2021-04-18T18:37:59Z remby: cobax: this topic you want to look into is distributed computing
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2021-04-18T18:38:30Z mister_m: Hi I want to ensure that when developing in emacs+slime the code I am compiling and intereacting with is "single steppable". I know with SBCL I can simply say, ``(declaim (optimize (debug 3)))'' and the debug mode should ensure that. Is that something I should just add to my .sbclrc file? Is there any real downside to doing that?
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2021-04-18T18:38:37Z cobax: imode: isn't all the information needed on my code already? can it not be inspected? would it help if I coded in a reflexive language so the scaling software can ask all the question it thinks it needs to my code directly?
2021-04-18T18:38:53Z cobax: remby: I appreciate the input.
2021-04-18T18:38:56Z imode: again, not unless you specifically demarcate the boundaries between parts of your code.
2021-04-18T18:39:03Z Josh_2: mister_m: pretty sure debug 3 is the default
2021-04-18T18:39:04Z imode: which is what erlang and clojure let you do.
2021-04-18T18:39:13Z cobax: imode: I would be okay with demarcating whatever in code as that is in-band so I am fine with that
2021-04-18T18:39:22Z cobax: precisely what I want is to stay in-code
2021-04-18T18:39:56Z cobax: I never understood this "you gotta configure this outside the code", Smalltalk never seems to have to abide by that rule, so why should anyone else accept less?
2021-04-18T18:40:08Z imode: smalltalk never really did the things that people are doing these days.
2021-04-18T18:40:16Z IIsi50MHz: Cobax, maybe the reason you have trouble finding the answer you want is that you're looking for a short+simple reason and the real answer is more complicated than that?
2021-04-18T18:40:23Z imode: ^
2021-04-18T18:40:30Z cobax: How do they serve a third of the world's shipping container companies without doing scaling?
2021-04-18T18:40:41Z cobax: Did they bypass the problem? If so, can I bypass it too?
2021-04-18T18:40:43Z imode: in what world do shipping container companies run on smalltalk.
2021-04-18T18:40:46Z IIsi50MHz: +1 "distibuted computing"
2021-04-18T18:41:10Z IIsi50MHz: er… s/sti/stri
2021-04-18T18:41:21Z cobax: IIsi50MHz: you are correct. And have you seen how many times lispers have simplified things beyond anyone's belief? Many times! I have faith in lispers.
2021-04-18T18:41:26Z imode: like I need to know the source for that statistic now.
2021-04-18T18:41:48Z imode: lisp evangelism is alright but the point of evangelism is that it's backing practical things.
2021-04-18T18:41:59Z IIsi50MHz: ^
2021-04-18T18:42:09Z imode: and you need to understand practical problems and their structure before you evangelize technology X as a solution to that problem.
2021-04-18T18:42:40Z remby: monads didn't even pull up until the 90s iirc
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2021-04-18T18:44:22Z cobax: imode: reference for that statistic: https://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/main/successes/shipping/orient-overseas-container-lines-ltd/
2021-04-18T18:44:44Z cobax: imode: if the 35% figure is not there, continue googling that company name with Smalltalk and/or "35%" until you find it. It's somewhere.
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2021-04-18T18:45:44Z cobax: remby: monads have been replaced by algebraic effects today in academia and for all practical purposes, fyi, you can see my code I linked above for an example usage.
2021-04-18T18:46:50Z remby: I don't actually know what a monad is, I just thought that was an important point.
2021-04-18T18:47:17Z remby: people have been handling io for a while without it
2021-04-18T18:47:19Z imode: "As a pure object-oriented database and object server, GemStone/S "
2021-04-18T18:47:24Z cobax: remby: monads are possibly the most complex isomorphism of algebraic effects; therefore, they are useless today.
2021-04-18T18:47:43Z cobax: imode: right, I do believe Gemstone/S is what helps them scale. Is that what you are saying?
2021-04-18T18:47:44Z imode: not that big of a surprise that it's a database. wouldn't really call it "powering" something, but fair point, a single shipping company.
2021-04-18T18:48:06Z cobax: imode: it's a "4gl-ish" database which is not the same as what people understand when you just say "database"
2021-04-18T18:48:14Z cobax: Gemstone/S is actually a Smalltalk.
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2021-04-18T18:48:21Z cobax: with an embedded db.
2021-04-18T18:49:13Z mister_m: Josh_2: Maybe you are correct - I think what I mean to ask is how can I ensure that the debugger shows me the same "evaluating call" output as my code
2021-04-18T18:49:21Z cobax: Gemstone/S is a "database" in the same sense MUMPS is a "database" (i.e. both are complete languages with an embedded horizontally-scaling database)
2021-04-18T18:49:33Z imode: that's great. that's not a third of all shipping.
2021-04-18T18:49:39Z imode: still impressive.
2021-04-18T18:49:48Z cobax: imode: somewhere else it says 35% of all shipping is overseen by smalltalk code.
2021-04-18T18:49:58Z cobax: imode: my not being able to find the source does not mean the source does not exist.
2021-04-18T18:49:59Z imode: well, interested in seeing that figure.
2021-04-18T18:50:08Z cobax: imode: as soon as I can find it again I will show you.
2021-04-18T18:50:09Z imode: yeah, because that's how.. evidence works.
2021-04-18T18:50:21Z cobax: imode: you are correct.
2021-04-18T18:50:35Z imode: my girlfriend in canada surely exists, but I can't produce any evidence, doesn't mean she doesn't exist, right? /s
2021-04-18T18:50:41Z cobax: So but from your reading, what is Gemstone/S doing right? There is zero configuration for it.
2021-04-18T18:50:55Z imode: in what world is there zero configuration for an application like this.
2021-04-18T18:51:23Z cobax: I just can't believe scaling needs to be coupled with the program being scaled. That seems totally unbelievable. Can't people just scale "a very complex program" and then we can all replace our program instead of "very complex program"?
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2021-04-18T18:51:33Z imode: I feel like you really need to dig into what the problems are behind distributed computing before you go randomly picking fights with problems you don't grasp.
2021-04-18T18:51:45Z imode: it takes people a while to grapple with that field because it is fairly complex.
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2021-04-18T18:51:56Z mister_m: cobax: read about the CAP theorem maybe
2021-04-18T18:53:12Z cobax: imode: I do want to tackle that field, and I want to start from the side that is the "fact" that is "keeping me from scaling with zero config". What part of distributed computing needs to be so coupled with my program, such that it is impossible for me to ask someone to scale "the toughest program to scale in the world" and then the rest of the
2021-04-18T18:53:12Z cobax: world can just copy that infrastructure and replace "the toughest" with their code!
2021-04-18T18:53:24Z cobax: mister_m: thank you, I will do that.
2021-04-18T18:53:30Z imode: here's the thing. if it was possible, someone would be doing it.
2021-04-18T18:53:48Z cobax: imode: no. we are in 2021, we are not in "every year in the future". So you can't say that.
2021-04-18T18:53:58Z cobax: Maybe something is possible but someone will only have done it in 2022.
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2021-04-18T18:54:22Z imode: you can't simultaneously wonder "why are we not doing this" and then say that it's only possible when someone does it in a future year.
2021-04-18T18:54:33Z imode: you're implying it's not just possible, it's incredibly easy, in current year.
2021-04-18T18:54:44Z cobax: imode: I can because I see companies like Heroku approaching what I am saying
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2021-04-18T18:55:00Z cobax: Heroku somehow managed to do a lot of work already to do with scaling without knowing yet anything about my code.
2021-04-18T18:55:00Z imode: heroku isn't.. even close to what you're describing you want.
2021-04-18T18:55:19Z imode: yeah because _they just spin up your service, which communicates over network protocols, over multiple computers_.
2021-04-18T18:55:27Z cobax: Yes it it. I want something I can throw an executable into and it figures out how many machines it needs or whatever, so long as it fits my budget.
2021-04-18T18:55:36Z imode: so.. k8s?
2021-04-18T18:55:52Z imode: so.. heroku? load balancers and autoscaling has been around for a decade+.
2021-04-18T18:57:03Z cobax: So why haven't they been wrapped up in some sort of docker thingy already such that I can drag and drop my executable there, and with no questions asked, it does all th autoscaling and load balacing for me? Everyone needs the same stuff: enough resources to serve clients comfortably while fitting my budget. I don't understand what further questions
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2021-04-18T18:57:03Z cobax: are needed. Throw resources at my program until I have no more money. That should be simple, Heroku is almost there, it seems.
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2021-04-18T18:57:41Z imode: think you're talking in circles. the solutions exist... heroku, kubernetes, orchestration engines, etc.
2021-04-18T18:57:52Z remby is now interested in distributed programming
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2021-04-18T18:57:59Z imode: remby: here be dragons.
2021-04-18T18:58:15Z imode: remby: https://workers.cloudflare.com/
2021-04-18T18:58:52Z remby: nope, have to write my own distributed OS in common lisp now :D
2021-04-18T18:59:00Z cobax: imode: thank you for answering my questions with patience. I will leave and go ask some smalltalkers, maybe they will understand my automating instincts better. If we don't fix this, DevOps people will forever be doing the same exact thing: scaling software. To me it looks 100% automatable, but if you say it isn't... then I will just try alone.
2021-04-18T18:59:00Z cobax: Thanks again.
2021-04-18T18:59:37Z cobax: "everything in Computer Science is automatable except scaling" would be a weird world to be living in.
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2021-04-18T19:00:07Z imode: not everything in CS is able to be automated.
2021-04-18T19:00:16Z remby: most things in CS have probably been solved before tbh
2021-04-18T19:00:35Z remby: which does not have a long history, so that's kinda sad lol
2021-04-18T19:00:39Z imode: remby: the design of cloudflare workers is awesome. they use the v8 runtime to spin up applications that are smaller than containers, but have fine-grained resource constraints.
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2021-04-18T19:01:12Z remby: v8 is possible to sandbox?
2021-04-18T19:01:17Z imode: https://developers.cloudflare.com/workers/learning/how-workers-works
2021-04-18T19:01:18Z remby: but yeah that is cool
2021-04-18T19:01:19Z imode: yeah, via v8 isolates.
2021-04-18T19:01:21Z remby: thanks
2021-04-18T19:01:37Z remby: jvm would be better I think
2021-04-18T19:01:46Z nij: Hi #lisp! If I have two versions of pkgA, say v1 and v2, how to I specify for asdf to load pkgAv2?
2021-04-18T19:01:50Z imode: fwiw I'm working on an alternative language for this.
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2021-04-18T19:01:52Z remby: but I don't want to drag this on
2021-04-18T19:02:02Z phoe: nij: ASDF doesn't deal with packages; you mean systems?
2021-04-18T19:02:25Z nij: right it's called system in CL! systems!
2021-04-18T19:02:25Z phoe: I'd say that you need to load the proper ASD file and then asdf:load-system; that should be enough
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2021-04-18T19:03:51Z nij: :O I thought to asdf:load-system is to load the ASD file
2021-04-18T19:03:52Z nij: hmm
2021-04-18T19:03:56Z phoe: nope
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2021-04-18T19:06:40Z Alfr: nij, didn't I already link you to asdf's documentation earlier today? It's in section 8.
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2021-04-18T19:07:24Z nij: Alfr: I'm trying to deal with another problem (namely, cl systems integration in guix..) and haven't really looked at it. I apologize.
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2021-04-18T19:11:56Z Alfr: nij, you can configure asdf's source-registry to look at different locations, order does matter, as it will take the first asd file that fits the bill.
2021-04-18T19:12:47Z nij: Alfr, in guix I might have 10 different versions of the same lisp system. I'm trying to figure out a way to call any of them at will.
2021-04-18T19:13:38Z phoe: call, as in, load from inside Lisp?
2021-04-18T19:14:11Z phoe: (remember that you won't be able to have multiple versions of the same system loaded at the same time)
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2021-04-18T19:14:45Z Alfr: nij, you can reconfigure it at run time, tough loading two different versions of the same system into the same image will likely turn out not to provide a working system.
2021-04-18T19:15:33Z phoe: but I assume that you could write a function or set of functions that is capable of reading Guix package data, and will then call LOAD-ASD on ASD files in proper locations, therefore "circumventing" the ASDF registry
2021-04-18T19:15:54Z phoe: this will allow you to run Lisp with various combinations of Lisp system versions, which is what you seem to be looking for
2021-04-18T19:16:24Z Alfr: nij, asdf:initialize-source-registry is what you're looking for where you should provide the source-registry configuration you'd like it to use.
2021-04-18T19:16:59Z phoe: ...or stuff all the pathnames to individual system directories into the source registry, as Alfr says
2021-04-18T19:18:28Z Josh_2: can't believe after all this time that I could just use (getf ) to access properties in a plist
2021-04-18T19:18:33Z Josh_2: I always tried get which never worked
2021-04-18T19:18:34Z Alfr: nij, also phoe's load-asd idea might be more concise.
2021-04-18T19:18:37Z Josh_2: absolute smooth brain moment
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2021-04-18T19:23:23Z nij: i see
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2021-04-18T19:27:48Z Josh_2: Yesterday I found out you can use (apply #'make-instance <class-name> <plist of initargs and values>)
2021-04-18T19:27:50Z Josh_2: very useful
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2021-04-18T19:29:04Z nij: Josh_2: you mean you can use that sexpr for what?
2021-04-18T19:29:13Z nij: Make an instance of some class?
2021-04-18T19:29:31Z Josh_2: yes
2021-04-18T19:29:54Z Josh_2: like this (apply #'make-instance 'sticker '(:name "abc" :filename "abc.png")) etc
2021-04-18T19:30:00Z nij: Err what else would you do to make an instance?
2021-04-18T19:30:13Z phoe: Josh_2: #'APPLY + plists generally combine very well
2021-04-18T19:30:22Z Josh_2: hey I never said it was special, just that I never realized you could do that
2021-04-18T19:30:50Z nij: oh oh
2021-04-18T19:30:50Z phoe: errr, #'APPLY + &KEY + plists
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2021-04-18T19:33:20Z Josh_2: apply has always been a bit of a mystery to me, not that I don't use it
2021-04-18T19:33:30Z nij: Yeah I think that #'APPLY splices its arguments is a brilliant design.
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2021-04-18T19:34:18Z nij: (apply #'f a b c d e (g h i j) k l m (n o) p) =? (f a b c d e g h i j k i l m n o p)
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2021-04-18T19:59:14Z Bike: only the final argument is spliced
2021-04-18T19:59:30Z Bike: you can just use append to do your own splicing, of course
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2021-04-19T03:05:59Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-04-19T03:11:51Z wikipedofile: how do you pronounce lisp?
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2021-04-19T03:11:54Z wikipedofile: 1) Llthp
2021-04-19T03:11:57Z wikipedofile: 2) Lorsp
2021-04-19T03:12:01Z wikipedofile: 3) LISP (Faggot)
2021-04-19T03:12:02Z wikipedofile: 4) Lasp
2021-04-19T03:12:20Z nij`: Hi! For people who have experience with other languages, have you seen any documentation that's comprehensive as CLHS?
2021-04-19T03:12:28Z wikipedofile: i have not! it's a great tool
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2021-04-19T03:15:07Z nij`: including other lisps? like racket, .. etc?
2021-04-19T03:15:15Z nij`: I've heard that they have great documentations.
2021-04-19T03:16:50Z lukego: speaking of CLHS, is there a way to recognize links to the glossary? for years and years now I've had the problem of constantly landing in the glossary when I am hoping to get somewhere else
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2021-04-19T03:19:38Z mfiano: clhs 1.4.1.1
2021-04-19T03:19:38Z specbot: Font Key: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/01_daa.htm
2021-04-19T03:19:44Z beach: nij`: The Common Lisp HyperSpec is the specification for the language, and probably other language standards are as complete.
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2021-04-19T03:22:30Z nij`: i haven't seen specifications of other languages.. a quick search on python's return a debate on stackoverflow
2021-04-19T03:22:40Z Nilby: lukego: I just use the emacs info version where most of the links are broken :-/
2021-04-19T03:22:43Z nij`: someone says there's someone says there isn't..
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2021-04-19T03:23:33Z nij`: By the way, is there a program that tests if any claim-to-be cl implementation satisfies everything in the specification?
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2021-04-19T03:25:46Z no-defun-allowed: https://www.common-lisp.net/project/ansi-test/
2021-04-19T03:27:26Z beach: nij`: Python does not have a standard.  You need to look into true languages, i.e., those with an independent standard.
2021-04-19T03:27:50Z beach: nij`: Python is more a "programming system" than a "language".
2021-04-19T03:28:52Z jcowan: Python is a language with a reference implementation.
2021-04-19T03:29:22Z nij`: What are some true languages?
2021-04-19T03:29:31Z nij`: no-defun-allowed: thanks :D
2021-04-19T03:29:39Z beach: nij`: Put differently, since Python does not have a standard, its documentation is not meant for people implementing Python systems, so it can be less detailed than a standard.
2021-04-19T03:30:34Z beach: nij`: Bye "true language", I mean a language that has a standard that is independent from any implementation of it, and that is controlled by a different organization than any organization providing implementations.
2021-04-19T03:31:10Z jcowan: Languages with US or international standards are: Ada, APT (a numerical control language), Basic, C, C++, Cobol, Common Lisp, Dibol, Forth, Fortran, Mumps/M, PANCM, Pascal, PL/B (aka Databus), PL/I, Rexx, Scheme, Smalltalk, SQL.
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2021-04-19T03:31:36Z beach: jcowan: Thanks!
2021-04-19T03:31:59Z no-defun-allowed: Ruby has an ISO standard, but from memory it is far from the latest version (Ruby 1.6?)
2021-04-19T03:32:19Z nij`: :-D
2021-04-19T03:32:21Z beach: I hear the situation is the same for C#.
2021-04-19T03:32:38Z mfiano: Missed Prolog and a few more
2021-04-19T03:33:07Z beach: nij`: As I often point out, a project leader or manager who chooses a language without an independent standard for some project, should be fired, because that person jeopardizes the future of the project and perhaps of the company too.
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2021-04-19T03:33:53Z jcowan: That's overblown: some projects (and indeed some companies) won't last long enough for that to matter.
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2021-04-19T03:34:09Z jcowan: Yes, I missed Prolog and Ruby
2021-04-19T03:34:42Z nij`: haha beach that sounds like most of them are doing
2021-04-19T03:35:13Z nij`: so.. i can also find C's specification that's as comprehensive as cl?
2021-04-19T03:35:25Z no-defun-allowed: Perhaps they shouldn't have spent so much on the HMS Titanic, because it sunk in the end.
2021-04-19T03:35:29Z nij`: hmm.. the list seems to contain some fairly old langs
2021-04-19T03:35:55Z mfiano: and APL, ALGOL60, C#, CHILL, ECMAScript, Eiffel, ISLISP, JavaScript, Modula-2, PL/I
2021-04-19T03:36:26Z beach: nij`: Yes, The standards document for C is quite detailed.
2021-04-19T03:36:57Z beach: nij`: That's the good thing about standards.  They don't go away over time.
2021-04-19T03:38:10Z nij`: until one day no one uses english anymore
2021-04-19T03:38:14Z beach: nij`: Many do that because they have no training or insight into what it means to be project leaders for programming projects.
2021-04-19T03:38:30Z nij`: I wonder if there's a way to encode info so that even aliens can surely decode
2021-04-19T03:38:51Z nij`: beach: or maybe they just want to ship and earn some livings quickly
2021-04-19T03:40:30Z no-defun-allowed: They don't have to write standards, only use them. Or is there some other reason that one would not ship as soon?
2021-04-19T03:41:55Z nij`: by the way, why is asdf:*central-registry* unrecommended?
2021-04-19T03:42:06Z beach: nij`: no-defun-allowed is right.  Choosing a language without a standard does not make things faster.  Just worse.
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2021-04-19T03:46:42Z imode: pretty sure a lot of companies are operating just fine on languages without a formal standard.
2021-04-19T03:47:01Z imode: sure, they suffer a bit more. but there's usually a de-facto implementation somewhere, even with the standard.
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2021-04-19T03:47:37Z imode: people who build the services you use typically care about the standards of protocols more than they do the standards of their languages, because they're not using obscure languages with dubious long term support... *ahem* some of them aren't.
2021-04-19T03:47:52Z no-defun-allowed: And our hearts are with them...
2021-04-19T03:47:59Z beach: imode: Yes, many do.  But some others don't.  And none of them seem to write up a risk analysis to see the consequences when things go bad.
2021-04-19T03:48:25Z imode: as someone who's involved with much of the infrastructure powering Amazon, trust me, that's the farthest thing from a risk.
2021-04-19T03:49:11Z imode: the real risk is the tools and languages developed in-house with no documentation around them, let alone a standard.
2021-04-19T03:49:19Z imode: finding maintainers is a risk.
2021-04-19T03:49:38Z imode: overcoming promotion driven development cycles with competent maintenence teams is a risk.
2021-04-19T03:49:53Z imode: "does a language have a standard" is not on any radar.
2021-04-19T03:50:22Z beach: imode: Large companies can afford to have a team that takes up the role of the supplier of the "programming system" they want to use, but that's not the case for many small and medium-sized companies that I see choosing languages without a standard.
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2021-04-19T03:50:52Z imode: small and medium-sized companies are not going to last long enough in their current state to care about language standards.
2021-04-19T03:51:06Z jcowan: Exactly.
2021-04-19T03:51:28Z imode: and by "last long enough" I mean have a product that extracts enough "feature juice" from a particular language to suddenly break when the reference implementation changes.
2021-04-19T03:51:45Z imode: this is by no means me arguing against language standardization. that's the good shit.
2021-04-19T03:51:54Z no-defun-allowed: A presentation run by AWS employees was one of the last "influences" for myself writing a lock-freee hash table.
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2021-04-19T03:52:33Z imode: most of AWS' design decisions, internally and externally, make you want to write everything from scratch.
2021-04-19T03:55:09Z imode: fwiw we have a custom lisp powering most of the stuff I do.
2021-04-19T03:55:21Z no-defun-allowed: Particuarly that the premise was complaining about garbage collection pauses and generally poor throughput, then using one lock for the in-memory database. Great presentation!
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2021-04-19T03:58:14Z no-defun-allowed: And then says "we matched the performance of <bleep> DB on this test only involving trivial reads and writes, my work here is done." What a crock of shit. But I am supposed to paying attention in class, so I'll shut up now.
2021-04-19T03:58:56Z imode: I mean. outdo them.
2021-04-19T03:59:21Z no-defun-allowed: At that point, sure, you can afford to be an idiot.
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2021-04-19T04:00:23Z imode: calling people idiots is usually frowned upon.
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2021-04-19T04:02:36Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, I'm careful about saying it out loud.
2021-04-19T04:03:21Z imode: judging software developers by the things they don't know isn't really a productive activity unless you care about stroking your own ego.
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2021-04-19T04:05:21Z no-defun-allowed: Or, given that they sell servers, maybe fooling potential customers into writing slow programs makes more money.
2021-04-19T04:06:20Z imode: I can safely say that between the inefficiency hypothesis and the ignorance hypothesis, the latter has more evidence.
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2021-04-19T09:14:10Z beach: What URL should I use for CMUCL in my paper?
2021-04-19T09:15:04Z beach: https://www.cons.org/cmucl/ ?
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2021-04-19T11:20:52Z Xach: beach: i usually go to cmucl.org, i'm not sure which is canonical
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2021-04-19T11:27:18Z jackdaniel: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/cmucl/cmucl/-/wikis/home#additional-information states:
2021-04-19T11:27:31Z jackdaniel: that cmucl.org is the canonical
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2021-04-19T11:56:42Z nij`: Fasl v.s. machine binary code, which one is faster?
2021-04-19T11:58:06Z jdz: mu
2021-04-19T11:58:45Z no-defun-allowed: A Lisp implementation does not (usually) directly execute from a FASL.
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2021-04-19T12:01:22Z nij`: ?
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2021-04-19T12:02:55Z Xach: nij`: fasl is a generic term for a file that is loaded into a lisp, in theory faster than compiling and loading a source code file. it cannot be meaningfully compared to machine binary code for execution speed.
2021-04-19T12:03:12Z no-defun-allowed: Runtime performance shouldn't be affected by whether the program was loaded from a FASL or a binary object file (though those aren't mutually exclusive; from memory ECL uses object files [think foo.o] as FASLs). Or is there another meaning of "faster"?
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2021-04-19T12:09:41Z nij`: Hmm. IIUC, fasl is good while being loaded? After it's loaded, the loaded part is binary anyways?
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2021-04-19T12:10:02Z Alfr: nij`, it's implementation dependent.
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2021-04-19T12:18:02Z nij`: i see
2021-04-19T12:19:01Z nij`: i just watched phoe's chat with another youtube guy this jan. i haven't had much coding experience.. but it sounds like the way cl handles conditions is very natural.
2021-04-19T12:19:28Z nij`: is it the case that many other languages, especially those major ones, don't have such conditions handling system?
2021-04-19T12:20:36Z no-defun-allowed: Yes.
2021-04-19T12:22:22Z nij`: I'm very surprised..
2021-04-19T12:22:51Z no-defun-allowed: I am not.
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2021-04-19T12:24:28Z no-defun-allowed: "Modern" programming languages frequently drop out even boring exception systems, which might help with handling every error case somehow, but makes it tedious to "bubble up" exceptions, let alone use restarts to fix them in a modular manner.
2021-04-19T12:25:09Z nij`: How do they handle errors than?
2021-04-19T12:25:17Z nij`: then*? Just to kill them all?
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2021-04-19T12:26:12Z no-defun-allowed: By using special return values. The "innovation" is that they can't be confused with success values (as in C) as either kind of value is extracted in a different way.
2021-04-19T12:28:49Z nij`: I wonder if that's really worse, industrial-wise speaking. Maybe that's more about the KISS principle..i dk.
2021-04-19T12:29:32Z no-defun-allowed: Often the handlers written just crash, which I would argue can be done nicer with exceptions, by leaving the decision of whether to crash or not to someone else.
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2021-04-19T12:30:48Z nij`: I see.
2021-04-19T12:30:49Z no-defun-allowed: At this point I'm pretty sure there is no point to ever calling something simple.
2021-04-19T12:31:22Z nij`: "Let the program crashes and let the programmers fix them."
2021-04-19T12:31:31Z nij`: This seems fairly simple to me.
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2021-04-19T12:32:16Z no-defun-allowed: Some people would say C is simple, as you can point to any expression in isolation and understand what it does. But then I'd say you just write more not-simple code, and any expression isn't doing much at all.
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2021-04-19T12:32:53Z nij`: Ah yes. The simplicity of tools and actions are almost always contradicting each other.
2021-04-19T12:33:15Z nij`: And (eq 'simple 'easy) => f
2021-04-19T12:33:35Z nij`: But I get what you mean.
2021-04-19T12:34:11Z nij`: I'm just wondering if the powerful condition handling system of CL is something that's really good for the both sides, or it's another kind of curse of lisp.
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2021-04-19T12:34:58Z no-defun-allowed: Again with some goddamn "curse"?
2021-04-19T12:35:21Z saganman: lol
2021-04-19T12:35:40Z nij`: Uhh is it not polite to say it here. I apologize in advance..
2021-04-19T12:35:43Z no-defun-allowed: I suppose Dylan also has restarts, but it is mostly CL with Pascal syntax and without interactivity (as long as the debugger won't run on non-Windows).
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2021-04-19T12:36:15Z saganman: aren't there lot of ways for conditional handling in lisp?
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2021-04-19T12:36:44Z no-defun-allowed: Oh no, I am sure most #lisp people would believe that nonsense. Can't be making your life any easier.
2021-04-19T12:37:00Z nij`: What's "that"? Curse of Lisp?
2021-04-19T12:37:40Z no-defun-allowed: saganman: As in control flow? The "condition system" is just one abstraction over control flow.
2021-04-19T12:37:49Z no-defun-allowed: Yes.
2021-04-19T12:38:11Z saganman: yeah
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2021-04-19T12:38:30Z nij`: Oooops.. I foudd it making a whole lot of sense.. will be happy if someone'd take time educating me.
2021-04-19T12:38:37Z saganman: it has lot more ways than other programming languages
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2021-04-19T12:38:55Z nij`: I'd imagine it'd be a drawback for industrial people.
2021-04-19T12:39:27Z no-defun-allowed: (I would also say that some standard CL functions have other ideas of returning non-normal values. GETF takes a default value, FIND, POSITION, ASSOC and others return NIL, GETHASH returns two values and so on.)
2021-04-19T12:40:18Z no-defun-allowed: How would better error handling be a drawback?
2021-04-19T12:41:10Z nij`: If there are many ways to do X, for individuals it's better, but for a group it's harder.
2021-04-19T12:41:33Z nij`: They'd have to communicate which one to use, but with the freedom it's hard to specify.
2021-04-19T12:41:33Z MrtnDk[m]: I wonder if nij` is nij  and is they're trying to post Guix stuff to NixOS or some other distribution?
2021-04-19T12:41:46Z MrtnDk[m]: nij`  even ...
2021-04-19T12:41:51Z nij`: Im nij.
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2021-04-19T12:42:07Z MrtnDk[m]: OK
2021-04-19T12:42:07Z nij`: MrtnDk[m]: I wasn't trying to post guix stuff to nixos @@ why?
2021-04-19T12:42:11Z no-defun-allowed: There is still only one way to establish restarts and signal conditions and so on. It just happens to be better at it.
2021-04-19T12:42:56Z no-defun-allowed: Any "professional" group tends to set standards on what constructs should be preferred, e.g. the Google Lisp style guide.
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2021-04-19T12:43:34Z nij`: Yeah but if the language they use is stupid enough, the workers are regulated automatically.
2021-04-19T12:43:37Z MrtnDk[m]: nij  Sorry, my typo. I was wondering if you're just a Guix user, or if you're trying to port (not post, that was a typo) something.
2021-04-19T12:43:56Z nij`: But on the other hand.. they'll have to write more ugly codes.. which will turn into another type of cost anyway.
2021-04-19T12:44:24Z no-defun-allowed: Then you have unproductive and unsatisfied workers. And in any other context, you are just restraining the creative process.
2021-04-19T12:44:29Z nij`: MrtnDk[m]: I was trying to use Guix and learned something. Got a bit burned out yesterday partly because I have no experience with Scheme.
2021-04-19T12:44:38Z nij`: But it's been fun. I don't mind learning very slowly.
2021-04-19T12:44:57Z no-defun-allowed: I may flip the argument around (as Alan Kay did once), and say that you are stuck with the "tyranny of a single implementation" in that case.
2021-04-19T12:46:51Z no-defun-allowed: My previous statement on unproductive workers is very similar to the statement on the importance of an average snippet of C code.
2021-04-19T12:47:06Z nij`: no-defun-allowed: I get that. I still believe that both ways have their pros and cons, and the curse of Lisp is a real thing. Could be a (wildly) naive viewpoint though.. I don't deny.
2021-04-19T12:47:32Z no-defun-allowed: Well, what can I say.
2021-04-19T12:48:12Z nij`: If you are willing to, you could share why you don't think that's a thing. I'm not here for a war, but to really learn great viewpoints from you.
2021-04-19T12:48:21Z nij`: (Really :) But I don't want to be pushy.)
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2021-04-19T12:48:36Z no-defun-allowed: Same thing I told you last time: "Man, your head is haunted, you have bats in your belfry!"
2021-04-19T12:48:53Z nij`: On the haskell thing xD?
2021-04-19T12:49:36Z nij`: To take off bats from my belfry, the best thing I could do is to talk to experienced people.
2021-04-19T12:49:52Z no-defun-allowed: The last time you bored me with this phantasm of the "curse of Lisp".
2021-04-19T12:50:42Z nij`: :(
2021-04-19T12:51:00Z nij`: BTW (a completely different question..), can I dry-run asdf and see what packages it will grab, given a (defsystem..)?
2021-04-19T12:51:31Z Shinmera: "grab"?
2021-04-19T12:51:41Z nij`: no-defun-allowed: Hey cool off. I'm just a naive noob who wants to learn. Sorry to have bored you though.
2021-04-19T12:52:18Z nij`: Shinmera: yeah.. like which path will it be looking at.
2021-04-19T12:52:33Z Shinmera: what do paths have to do with packages
2021-04-19T12:53:22Z nij`: Shinmera: for example, in `:depends-on ("optima.ppcre" "command-line-arguments")`, asdf will look for "optima.ppcre" in my machine.
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2021-04-19T12:53:51Z no-defun-allowed: You want to know where a system is stored?
2021-04-19T12:54:01Z nij`: But there might be many "optima.ppcre". I'd hope to dry run and see a list of all "optima.ppcre" it finds (with the first thing being what it will load).
2021-04-19T12:54:19Z Shinmera: there may not be many.
2021-04-19T12:54:31Z nij`: Shinmera: On guix there will be, I suppose.
2021-04-19T12:54:33Z Shinmera: I explained this to you before. ASDF can only know of one system definition at once.
2021-04-19T12:54:38Z no-defun-allowed: I know of asdf:system-relative-pathname, and there is likely another function for finding the pathname of the asd file used.
2021-04-19T12:55:27Z nij`: Shinmera: ASDF will look for the asd files by how it's configured, and load the first one it's found. Is that right? (based on my impression of skimming through the manual this morning)
2021-04-19T12:55:51Z Shinmera: I don't know about first found, but what it find depends on its configuration, sure.
2021-04-19T12:56:53Z no-defun-allowed: nij`: I'm sorry that I came off that way. In summary, my view is that one requires incompatible experiments in order to make a _good_ decision, rather than _a_ decision (which is apparently preferable to some people).
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2021-04-19T13:01:19Z no-defun-allowed: But as Shinmera said, ASDF only uses one system per name. And systems are not packages.
2021-04-19T13:02:40Z nij`: Yeah.. but I'd hope I can _dry-run_ ASDF, sort of like using ASDF as a search engine, and see what file it _would_ load if not being dry-run.
2021-04-19T13:03:16Z flip214: nij`: run ASDF with an invalid source directory and catch the conditions that are thrown ;)
2021-04-19T13:03:17Z Shinmera: You can't, really. Even figuring out where the systems are may load systems.
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2021-04-19T13:05:24Z nij`: flip214: ? what do you mean?
2021-04-19T13:05:33Z no-defun-allowed: Is that because of :defsystem-depends-on? I am not that familiar with ASDF.
2021-04-19T13:05:54Z Shinmera: no-defun-allowed: that, and ASD files being Lisp source files that can generally do whatever they want.
2021-04-19T13:06:03Z no-defun-allowed: True.
2021-04-19T13:06:06Z Alfr: nij`, asdf:locate-system
2021-04-19T13:06:13Z Shinmera: no-defun-allowed: systems might even be defined programmatically with no canonical file to define them
2021-04-19T13:07:09Z nij`: Alfr: (asdf:locate-system :asdf) doesn't return where asdf is XD!
2021-04-19T13:07:16Z nij`: Oh, but it did for local-time.
2021-04-19T13:07:29Z nij`: Hmm.. this is good, but i'd hope I can dry-run.
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2021-04-19T13:08:09Z nij`: And also, I'd hope asdf can search all systems that satisfy the requirement given in the (defsystem..) code.
2021-04-19T13:08:27Z Alfr: nij`, unless asdf.asd can be found with your source-registry configuration, it won't show.
2021-04-19T13:08:27Z no-defun-allowed: Also possible, yes.
2021-04-19T13:09:28Z nij`: no-defun-allowed: dry-run is possible?
2021-04-19T13:10:01Z no-defun-allowed: I meant that systems can be produced without a defsystem, as Shinmera pointed out.
2021-04-19T13:10:48Z no-defun-allowed: Loosely speaking, loading a system can run arbitrary code in here and there and a few other places, so a dry run would not be possible.
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2021-04-19T13:12:01Z Shinmera: not just loading a system, but even just loading its definition.
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2021-04-19T13:15:02Z no-defun-allowed: Yep.
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2021-04-19T13:18:06Z nij`: So what I need (to write perhaps on my own) is a function that intakes the definition and the current configuration of asdf, and outputs a list of paths that would be loaded.
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2021-04-19T13:18:47Z MrFantastik: is there a preffered pastebin for this channel?
2021-04-19T13:20:42Z Shinmera: Quite a few use https://plaster.tymoon.eu
2021-04-19T13:20:50Z Shinmera: But it doesn't really matter?
2021-04-19T13:21:53Z MrFantastik: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2397#2397
2021-04-19T13:22:07Z MrFantastik: I've been shamed for using pastebin before
2021-04-19T13:22:19Z Alfr: nij`, you might want to look into asdf's make-plan.
2021-04-19T13:22:20Z MrFantastik: So i feel like its prudent to ask
2021-04-19T13:22:55Z Bike: you have QUERYSTRING quoted, which you probably don't want
2021-04-19T13:23:32Z MrFantastik: the example for :query in quri uses quotes
2021-04-19T13:23:49Z MrFantastik: but that is correct I don't want lol
2021-04-19T13:23:57Z contrapunctus: I noticed that a Lisp program had a package definition which exported :foo, but the function it meant to exported was called bar. And when you think about it, that's duplication...is there a way to specify that a symbol is to be exported, within the defining form itself?
2021-04-19T13:23:57Z MrFantastik: but I'm not sure how to proceed
2021-04-19T13:24:10Z Bike: wel, the example isn't doing what you want, then
2021-04-19T13:24:12Z nij`: Alfr!! That seems what I want but isn't well documented in the manual.
2021-04-19T13:24:16Z Bike: probably you just want to backquote
2021-04-19T13:24:17Z contrapunctus: meant to * export
2021-04-19T13:24:45Z Alfr: nij`, you'll have to dive into the sources, it think.
2021-04-19T13:25:01Z MrFantastik: backquote has same result
2021-04-19T13:25:17Z Bike: i meant: `(("output" . "firefox") ("search" . ,querystring))
2021-04-19T13:25:22Z Bike: the comma means "actually evaluate this part"
2021-04-19T13:25:29Z MrFantastik: interesting!
2021-04-19T13:25:42Z MrFantastik: that works
2021-04-19T13:25:48Z Bike: regular quotation means, straightforwardly, do not evaluate this
2021-04-19T13:25:49Z Alfr: nij`, tough beware, it will load the .asd files, so whatever actions happen in these will be run.
2021-04-19T13:26:04Z Bike: so with your first attempt you construct a cons of ("SEARCH" . QUERYSTRING), a string and a symbol
2021-04-19T13:26:16Z Bike: and it interprets the symbol as a designator for the string "QUERYSTRING", thus the result
2021-04-19T13:27:28Z Bike: contrapunctus: i don't think it's really duplication - one defines the function/whatever and one defines the interface. If you want to keep a function but unexport it later you can just remove it from the package exports list later without touching the function code.
2021-04-19T13:27:36Z Bike: contrapunctus: but if you really want you could define a macro that calls EXPORT
2021-04-19T13:28:38Z nij`: Alfr: yeah I'd have to extract the parts that make the pure plan.
2021-04-19T13:28:48Z nij`: Thanks a lot :)
2021-04-19T13:29:16Z contrapunctus: Bike: thanks, glad to know there's another way.
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2021-04-19T13:31:21Z Alfr: nij`, .asd-files can contain arbitrary lisp expressions, you won't be able to always get away with simply reading these files.
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2021-04-19T13:35:15Z Nilby: nij: Here's a quick hack to see what's actually loaded: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2398#2398
2021-04-19T13:35:33Z Xach: asdf:*system-definition-search-functions* is also an important point of intercession
2021-04-19T13:36:34Z flip214: www.xach.com: : SEC_ERROR_EXPIRED_CERTIFICATE
2021-04-19T13:36:39Z Xach: d'oh
2021-04-19T13:36:54Z flip214: JFI
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2021-04-19T13:39:21Z Xach: Thanks
2021-04-19T13:40:42Z flip214: you're welcome!
2021-04-19T13:41:20Z MrFantastik: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2399#2399
2021-04-19T13:41:30Z MrFantastik: working version of what I was trying to do
2021-04-19T13:41:46Z MrFantastik: might be useful for fellow stumpwm users :)
2021-04-19T13:43:45Z nij`: What does google-search-suggestion do?
2021-04-19T13:43:45Z nij`:  
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2021-04-19T13:44:09Z MrFantastik: return a list of suggestions that google would suggest for you
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2021-04-19T13:45:01Z MrFantastik: the idea being when running a search from a stumpwm menu, I can add autocompletion to it and suggestions
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2021-04-19T13:45:51Z nij`: Oh I see! That's great :D
2021-04-19T13:46:19Z nij`: How hard is it to decouple with google? - so I can use it with other search engine?
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2021-04-19T13:47:11Z beach: Xach, jackdaniel: Thanks!
2021-04-19T13:48:13Z MrFantastik: it would be pretty easy, remove the nth 1 on line 15 any swap (google-search-uri querystring) with whatever search engine you prefer
2021-04-19T13:48:27Z nij`: MrFantastik: I've been always wanted to extend my stumpwm.. but with the power of emacs' selecting packages like ivy or helm.
2021-04-19T13:48:33Z nij`: Have you thought about that?
2021-04-19T13:48:40Z nij`: Same goes for the browser nyxt..
2021-04-19T13:49:03Z beach: nij`: Were you seriously suggesting that returning special values to indicate errors is as good as a condition system?
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2021-04-19T13:49:52Z nij`: beach: No. I can see the good part of CL's condition system. I'm just wondering if that will make it harder for a (large) group of people.
2021-04-19T13:50:40Z beach: On the contrary.
2021-04-19T13:50:45Z MrFantastik: nij` yea I've done a bit of work on that for mine, I think that it could be possible with stumpwm:select-from-menu
2021-04-19T13:51:32Z beach: Returning special values in extremely error prone because all "intermediate function" will have to know about every error situation.  An "intermediate function" is a function that neither knows how to handle an error nor how to trigger one.  I can't even imagine how a group of people would have to deal with all possible error values for all possible intermediate functions.
2021-04-19T13:52:02Z MrFantastik: the only issue i could see with it is updating the list of items that you are completing on with new keypresses
2021-04-19T13:52:54Z MrFantastik: not really a problem for something like a helm style completion system, but a bit of an issue for a search engine
2021-04-19T13:53:13Z nij`: MrFantastik: you mean to have a better stumpwm menu? Or to have a emacs drop down available so we can select using ivy?
2021-04-19T13:53:46Z nij`: Oh I suppose it's the former.
2021-04-19T13:53:48Z nij`: Hmm.
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2021-04-19T13:54:05Z MrFantastik: yes the former
2021-04-19T13:54:09Z nij`: Have you thought of making use of ivy/helm?
2021-04-19T13:54:18Z MrFantastik: I use helm in emacs
2021-04-19T13:54:38Z MrFantastik: never thought about using it in stumwpm though
2021-04-19T13:55:56Z nij`: beach: Ah.. that could be my thinking gap. I wasn't aware of the intermediate functions. When I wrote a program, I tried to let all functions handle all errors.. which quickly dries me out.
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2021-04-19T13:56:34Z nij`: MrFantastik: I mean.. if we have a good selecting functionality for stumpwm one day, we will have to write one for nyxt.
2021-04-19T13:56:35Z nij`: And so on.
2021-04-19T13:57:03Z nij`: Given that most (many?) lispers use emacs, I figured why not just make calling ivy/helm easier?
2021-04-19T13:57:07Z beach: nij`: And you could never use functions like MAPCAR.
2021-04-19T13:57:14Z tfb: nij`: not having a condition system (or, exceptions at least) is a way of being very sure that large programs are unsafe, because *every single function* needs to check for unexpected error returns.  And ... they won't.
2021-04-19T13:57:16Z nij`: They had been developed for a while and are quite sophisticated.
2021-04-19T13:57:28Z nij`: beach: OH! Why is that the case?!
2021-04-19T13:57:31Z beach: nij`: You would have to write a special version of it so that it would check for errors every time it invokes its first argument.
2021-04-19T13:58:05Z MrFantastik: stumwpm:select-from-menu is fairly robust for creating custom menus
2021-04-19T13:58:07Z nij`: tfb: Yes. I'm very enlightened by this conversation. So I shouldn't write error check for all functions.. but just a tiny part of them?
2021-04-19T13:59:00Z nij`: Well, beach, say we have (mapcar #'f '(x1 x2 x3)).
2021-04-19T13:59:02Z MrFantastik: there is also an option to show a menu for state transitions which is similar to the thing in emacs that shows a help in the modeline
2021-04-19T13:59:22Z nij`: If f knows gives error, we can know that's from f, right?
2021-04-19T13:59:26Z MichaelRaskin: tfb: with a strong enough type system and a bit of helpers for passing-through the errors you can keep safety. Rust does. Of course you lose restarts
2021-04-19T13:59:27Z tfb: nij`: most of your functions won't even know an error happened: they'll call something and ... it will never return because it raised an exception which got handled somewhere up the stack
2021-04-19T13:59:34Z MrFantastik: which-key-mode
2021-04-19T14:00:32Z nij`: MrFantastik: How about recency and frequency?
2021-04-19T14:00:36Z beach: nij`: Yes, then after calling (funcall #'f x1), MAPCAR would have to check for an error and return some other error, before calling #'f on x2.
2021-04-19T14:00:52Z nij`: And can you configure it so that it uses your matching/sorting algorithm?
2021-04-19T14:00:53Z MrFantastik: nij neither of those are built in
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2021-04-19T14:01:18Z MrFantastik: you can configure the mathching algorithm and sorting algo though
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2021-04-19T14:01:46Z MrFantastik: you pass the elements that you would like to match against and an optional function for matching
2021-04-19T14:01:50Z nij`: cool. i will look more into stumpwm's manual for this! thanks for sharing :) MrFantastik
2021-04-19T14:02:19Z MrFantastik: the source for them isn't too daunting either
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2021-04-19T14:02:40Z nij`: Oh yes, based on experience I think going for their source is better.
2021-04-19T14:03:09Z nij`: I still wonder how hard it is to have a stumpwm group that has tiling and floating at the same time..
2021-04-19T14:03:21Z MrFantastik: I don't think its supported atm
2021-04-19T14:03:32Z MrFantastik: I would like that though too
2021-04-19T14:03:43Z MrFantastik: maybe it will happen in mahogony
2021-04-19T14:03:53Z nij`: I think it's very inconvenient to have more than a window in a frame..
2021-04-19T14:04:23Z nij`: ! How did mahogony go?
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2021-04-19T14:04:54Z nij`: Uhrr.. it's for wayland.
2021-04-19T14:05:30Z MrFantastik: most linux distro's are switching to wayland
2021-04-19T14:05:55Z MrFantastik: although I'm not looking forward to biting that bullet
2021-04-19T14:06:20Z MrFantastik: I'm already comfortable with my X bugs, now I need to learn a whole new class of bugs!
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2021-04-19T14:07:36Z edgar-rft: wayland gives us 3D bugs!
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2021-04-19T14:09:21Z nij`: XD
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2021-04-19T14:15:35Z Nilby: I never thought 36 years later, someone would invent a window system with a worse user experience than X11. I guess I'll just have to wait until Excel implements the CL condition system.
2021-04-19T14:17:32Z nij`: ?? Is wayland's user experience worse than that of x11?
2021-04-19T14:18:28Z pjb: nij`: AFAIK, yes.  For example, you cannot run applications on remote hosts.
2021-04-19T14:18:46Z pjb: nij`: same problem with Display Postscript vs. Aqua.
2021-04-19T14:19:26Z astronavt: im not sure thats considered a "worse" experience for today's typical desktop usages
2021-04-19T14:20:05Z pjb: astronavt: I use X11 remotely almost every day.
2021-04-19T14:20:34Z astronavt: the bigger issue with wayland is that a lot of what people expect as standard desktop functionality (e.g. copy and paste) was left unspecified and the community had to develop their own set of protocols on top of wayland, which the compositor has to explicitly support/implement
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2021-04-19T14:20:59Z astronavt: pjb: im sure, but you probably aren't the basic desktop/laptop user that the people who pushed wayland had in mind :)
2021-04-19T14:21:35Z astronavt: its a magnified version of the copy and paste issue - they put all this work into making a new low-ish level protocol and left everything else as an exercise to the reader
2021-04-19T14:21:37Z beach: Personally, I am really tired of frequently being someone they didn't have in mind.
2021-04-19T14:21:48Z beach: What?  More than one workspace?
2021-04-19T14:22:02Z beach: What? You want to launch the document viewer on the same document, but twice?
2021-04-19T14:22:03Z pjb: Exactly.
2021-04-19T14:22:21Z beach: What? You don't want to restart your browser when the code is updated?
2021-04-19T14:22:28Z astronavt: hold on, my "not had in mind" part was just related to using it remote
2021-04-19T14:22:42Z beach: What? You don't want to turn off your applications when the OS kernel is updated?
2021-04-19T14:22:44Z beach: Who are you?
2021-04-19T14:22:48Z astronavt: lol
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2021-04-19T14:23:16Z astronavt: its a bit like a programming language, really - they invented this core language that, in theory, solves all problems. but none of the actual user-facing "tooling" was implemented or even specified
2021-04-19T14:23:17Z Josh_2: Ello
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2021-04-19T14:23:23Z MichaelRaskin: astronavt: well, and then the reality is that they only care about no-customisation Gnome users
2021-04-19T14:23:28Z astronavt: indeed
2021-04-19T14:23:44Z MrFantastik: reminds me of the systemd transition a few years ago
2021-04-19T14:23:59Z astronavt: look at all the successful hipster programming langs - they all come with their own test runner, docs generator, auto-formatter, etc.
2021-04-19T14:24:07Z astronavt: if they didn't, nobody would have started using them
2021-04-19T14:24:19Z TMA: What, you don't want the computer rebooting just because you went away from it for five minutes?
2021-04-19T14:24:50Z MrFantastik: I do like having code autoformatting
2021-04-19T14:24:58Z MichaelRaskin: astronavt: pretty sure Julia did not have an official auto-formatter and might still not have it
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2021-04-19T14:25:21Z MrFantastik: saves me from the most annoying of code review criticisms
2021-04-19T14:25:22Z astronavt: thats fair, although julia is somewhat of an odd case, being domain-specific by design
2021-04-19T14:25:35Z astronavt: meanwhile look at how polished the julia repl is
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2021-04-19T14:26:42Z MichaelRaskin: I mean, they can _talk_ about domain specificity, but by now the only thing I like better about Common Lisp for any domain, is less ecosystem churn in the sense that a random library might get bugs fixed but won't get a redesign.
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2021-04-19T14:27:06Z MichaelRaskin: (It helps that Julia's design explicitly references the things I like most about Common Lisp)
2021-04-19T14:27:21Z astronavt: thats a good point
2021-04-19T14:27:33Z astronavt: i havent seen e.g. a webserver implemented in julia but i don't see any reason why you wouldn't want to
2021-04-19T14:27:55Z astronavt: and its really wonderful for its intended problem domain as wellp
2021-04-19T14:27:59Z astronavt: well*
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2021-04-19T14:28:28Z MrFantastik: what is the intended problem domain for julia?
2021-04-19T14:28:47Z MrFantastik: scientific computing?
2021-04-19T14:28:51Z MichaelRaskin: Yes
2021-04-19T14:30:25Z MrFantastik: I find it more cumbersome than python for most things
2021-04-19T14:30:41Z MrFantastik: I'm not used to julia though so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
2021-04-19T14:31:06Z MrFantastik: also I'm not a scientist lol
2021-04-19T14:31:46Z nij`: Why is asdf:*central-registry* not recommended? https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html#Configuring-ASDF-to-find-your-systems-_002d_002d_002d-old-style
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2021-04-19T14:33:20Z Alfr: nij`, section 8.4
2021-04-19T14:33:44Z Bike: because you're supposed to use all the source registry stuff instead
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2021-04-19T14:34:01Z nij`: Got ya!
2021-04-19T14:34:29Z nij` is caught another time by Alfr that he hasn't read chapter8+9. 
2021-04-19T14:34:40Z nij`: Well I started from the first section.. and is almost there.
2021-04-19T14:34:50Z Alfr: nij`, lol
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2021-04-19T14:38:13Z nij`: haha yeah my question is about 4.2, proving that i'm reading. thanks anyways!
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2021-04-19T15:12:04Z nij`: Stumpish is a shell interface to stumpwm: https://github.com/stumpwm/stumpwm-contrib/blob/master/util/stumpish/stumpish . I wonder how it talks to the running stumpwm without invoking any swank/slynk server. The key seems to be on line#83, where `xprop ..` is invoked to send the command to stumpwm. Has anyone heard of such magic to interact with an on-live lisp program?
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2021-04-19T15:13:35Z Bike: xprop is part of x11
2021-04-19T15:14:14Z Bike: it works because stump is the x server (i think, i'm not good with X terms)
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2021-04-19T15:14:45Z Bike: so probably wouldn't work for lisp programs generally
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2021-04-19T15:19:40Z nij`: Hmm.. but the command must go from some entry into the lisp of stumpwm, right?
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2021-04-19T15:22:59Z Bike: yes. stumpwm grabs it here https://github.com/stumpwm/stumpwm/blob/master/events.lisp#L298
2021-04-19T15:23:55Z Bike: xprop associates the root window with a property list including :STUMPWM_COMMAND "some command", basically, and then stumpwm reads that and sets a STUMPWM_COMMAND_RESULT property
2021-04-19T15:24:36Z Bike: any lisp program with an x window easily identifiable from the stumpish analog could do something like this, i think
2021-04-19T15:24:56Z Bike: so, not lisp programs in a shell for instance
2021-04-19T15:26:48Z Nilby: X properties is a really bad way to communicate to a running lisp. Probably better to start swank in your target lisp, and then send commands with swank-client from another lisp.
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2021-04-19T15:27:14Z nij`: yes it's a very degenerated way.. hmm
2021-04-19T15:27:16Z Bike: it definitely seems a little hackish, or at least worse than sockets
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2021-04-19T15:28:41Z nij`: Nilby: the problem I had with swank/slynk for stumpwm is that.. sometimes if I accidentally kill the server that links with the running stumpwm, stumpwm crashes.
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2021-04-19T15:30:52Z Bike: wouldn't the stumpwm be running the swank server?
2021-04-19T15:31:15Z Bike: sounds like a job for handler-case anyway
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2021-04-19T15:32:02Z nij`: ? What ya mean?
2021-04-19T15:32:34Z nij`: You can run a swank server within stumpwm. And then connect to that swank server from emacs. Yes.
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2021-04-19T15:34:33Z nij`: Oh, btw, how do I search for listening swank/slynk servers on my localhost? `M-x sly-list-connections` only shows those that are connected.
2021-04-19T15:35:07Z Bike: you said "the server that links with the running stumpwm" as if the server was outside of stumpwm and communicating with it
2021-04-19T15:35:45Z Bike: and with handler-case i just mean you should make the code running the swank server error tolerant so the whole thing doesn't crash if the swank server hits an unexpected problem
2021-04-19T15:35:53Z Bike: doesn't seem like anything unique to swank
2021-04-19T15:38:22Z nij`: I see.
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2021-04-19T15:55:17Z gendl: Hi, is there a defacto standard Abstract Associative Map for CL?
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2021-04-19T15:56:26Z gendl: something which has a consistent set of accessor/setter functions, and maybe uses a plist or alist under-the-hood for small maps, and automatically converts itself to & from a hash table when the map size exceeds or shrinks below a certain threshhold value?
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2021-04-19T15:58:24Z pjb: gendl: com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.dictionary
2021-04-19T15:58:54Z gendl: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/crYH1jPC/--
2021-04-19T15:59:04Z gendl: -->  "now"
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2021-04-19T15:59:23Z pjb: gendl: and yes, there's also ->
2021-04-19T15:59:42Z pjb: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/1bab4b5bae1fdca3 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/190d771c0e033a1c
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2021-04-19T16:01:13Z nij`: How do I search for listening swank/slynk servers on my localhost? `M-x sly-list-connections` only shows those that are connected.
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2021-04-19T16:07:49Z pjb: nij`:  sudo netstat -tnlp may help.
2021-04-19T16:09:12Z nij`: Indeed, thanks :-)
2021-04-19T16:13:20Z gendl: pjb: what does ->  do?  Is it difficult to make a map instance work syntactically like a function?
2021-04-19T16:15:50Z nij`: Here's a nice tutorial that clicked for me about ->
2021-04-19T16:15:52Z nij`: https://github.com/phoe/binding-arrows/blob/main/doc/TUTORIAL.md
2021-04-19T16:19:55Z Odin-: That's a different '->', isn't it?
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2021-04-19T16:20:46Z Bike: yes.
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2021-04-19T16:23:54Z pjb: gendl: it's an accessor combinator.
2021-04-19T16:26:46Z gendl: thanks
2021-04-19T16:26:51Z pjb: (-> (vector '((a . (x y z)) (b . (xx yy zz))) 42 33 ) 0 'b 1)  #| --> yy |#
2021-04-19T16:27:50Z pjb: Well, a generalized accessor.  The actual access is determined from the indexed object.
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2021-04-19T21:02:08Z jmercouris: anyone know how to reliably determine the graphics card driver being used?
2021-04-19T21:02:18Z jmercouris: is there something like a *hardware-features* :D?
2021-04-19T21:03:04Z Bike: that sounds like a question for your operating system
2021-04-19T21:03:25Z jmercouris: I always figure I should ask because the spec has surprised me many many times
2021-04-19T21:03:30Z Bike: lspci for example
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2021-04-19T21:04:14Z jmercouris: right, or modinfo perhaps
2021-04-19T21:05:12Z Bike: but no, there's nothing in the standard. if you look in the "Environment" section you can see what query functions there are. basically just a version and "type"
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2021-04-19T21:05:23Z Bike: the nature of both of which is basically up to the implementation
2021-04-19T21:05:34Z Shinmera: https://github.com/Shirakumo/feedback/blob/master/client/system-info.lisp
2021-04-19T21:06:24Z jmercouris: Shinmera: seems a good approach
2021-04-19T21:06:25Z jmercouris: thanks
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2021-04-19T23:07:28Z MrFantastik: can I override the behavior of a library's function in a let statement and have it return to its original implementation when i exit that context?
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2021-04-19T23:09:30Z tatsumaru: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisp_(programming_language)   did lisp always have the yinyang logo or is this something new?
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2021-04-19T23:09:58Z MrFantastik: tatsumaru: its on the cover of sicp like that iirc
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2021-04-19T23:10:43Z MrFantastik: ahh its an eval/apply yin-yang on that though
2021-04-19T23:11:07Z Xach: MrFantastik: not really
2021-04-19T23:11:11Z Xach: (override that is)
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2021-04-19T23:11:37Z MrFantastik: is there a way to do something like that?
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2021-04-19T23:13:14Z Xach: MrFantastik: you could play some games with fdefinition or symbol-function perhaps
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2021-04-19T23:14:59Z Xach: MrFantastik: what would you do if it was possible?
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2021-04-19T23:15:49Z MrFantastik: I'm trying to post a good example but my local copy of stumpwm appears out of date when compared to the one on github
2021-04-19T23:17:31Z MrFantastik: https://pastebin.com/jskbNWfq
2021-04-19T23:17:57Z MrFantastik: select-from-menu calls check-menu-complete
2021-04-19T23:18:50Z MrFantastik: i want to change the behavior of check menu-complete for a menu but for only one instance of that menu
2021-04-19T23:20:07Z Xach: Change it how?
2021-04-19T23:20:43Z MrFantastik: well I'm not exactly sure yet but I'm pretty sure I want to change
2021-04-19T23:20:45Z MrFantastik:             (setf (menu-state-table menu) (remove-if-not #'match-p (menu-state-unfiltered-table menu))
2021-04-19T23:20:45Z MrFantastik:  
2021-04-19T23:21:11Z MrFantastik: the way these menus work is that you define an initial table for the menu, and filter on keypress
2021-04-19T23:21:33Z MrFantastik: when I enter a keypress, I want to overwrite the content of the menu entirely
2021-04-19T23:22:07Z MrFantastik: using this https://pastebin.com/vHf6ZsCX
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2021-04-19T23:28:30Z MrFantastik: well not the entire menu, the menu table
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2021-04-19T23:34:21Z MrFantastik: hmm there appears to be flet as well as symbol-function
2021-04-19T23:34:48Z MrFantastik: might be what I'm looking for http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_symb_1.htm
2021-04-19T23:42:28Z MrFantastik: don't mean to spam but flet is exactly what I was looking for
2021-04-19T23:42:43Z MrFantastik: in case anyone ever searches lol
2021-04-19T23:44:13Z MrFantastik: oh but idk if it will work inside the context of the library function
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2021-04-20T00:00:06Z Bike: flet is lexical, not dynamic, so the new binding won't be in effect in some other function you call
2021-04-20T00:00:28Z Bike: there's no way to dynamically bind functions, but you can do something like (funcall *check-menu-complete* ...)
2021-04-20T00:00:43Z Bike: assuming you control check-menu-complete to begin with, but it sounds like you don't
2021-04-20T00:03:25Z Xach: welll
2021-04-20T00:03:41Z Xach: you control it if you like. write a new function that uses a special or something.
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2021-04-20T00:55:18Z nij: Hello, is there an expressive way to access to a (deep slot) or an instance X by syntax like (get X (a b c)), in which I'm looking (the slot c of (the slot b of (the slot a of X)))?
2021-04-20T00:55:57Z nij: I find this more satisfactory than expression like (b-c (a-b (X-a X))).
2021-04-20T00:56:29Z nij: Of course, I'd also hope to (setf (get X (a b c)) 172).
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2021-04-20T01:04:17Z no-defun-allowed: You could use an "arrow" macro, for something like (-> X a b c)
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2021-04-20T01:20:46Z nij: But with that I still need to do (-> X (X-a) (a-b) (b-c))
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2021-04-20T01:20:55Z nij: Hmm.. looks a lot nicer.
2021-04-20T01:21:09Z nij: However, usually the name is much longer.
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2021-04-20T01:21:41Z nij: For example, I have (dyn-float-group-dyn-order group) now.
2021-04-20T01:22:02Z nij: where dyn-float-group is X, and dyn-order is a.
2021-04-20T01:22:29Z nij: Without an accessor with "structure", I have to keep track of how "dyn-float-group-dyn-order" breaks down.
2021-04-20T01:22:57Z nij: With "structure", I can say (get (dyn-float-group dyn-order) group).
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2021-04-20T01:50:08Z nij: -------
2021-04-20T01:50:43Z nij: I wonder why the accessor `dyno` isn't SETF-able in a LET expression .. https://bpa.st/2QCA
2021-04-20T01:51:05Z nij: In the code, I figured a work-around.. but I'd rather like `dyno` to be SETF-able..
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2021-04-20T01:51:22Z no-defun-allowed: That is not an "accessor", that is a variable.
2021-04-20T01:52:10Z no-defun-allowed: You could use SYMBOL-MACROLET instead of LET to use DYNO to name that place though.
2021-04-20T01:54:59Z nij: Oh! I see :-D.
2021-04-20T01:55:01Z nij: Thank you!
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2021-04-20T03:08:01Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-04-20T03:44:36Z asarch: Good morning!
2021-04-20T03:45:41Z asarch: Today is NetBSD's birthday: 4/19/1993, 28th anniversary!!!
2021-04-20T03:45:59Z asarch: Any NetBSD user?
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2021-04-20T03:46:53Z beach: Do they use that silly date format where you live as well?  If so, I am sorry to hear that.
2021-04-20T03:50:33Z Nilby: I dislike date formats so much, I've started using 3827879332 in text documents.
2021-04-20T03:51:10Z asarch: Well, that format date is from vintage
2021-04-20T03:52:21Z no-defun-allowed: My girlfriend would probably use ISO8601. At least that way lexicographic sorting works correctly.
2021-04-20T03:52:39Z beach: I think that's the best format around.
2021-04-20T03:53:09Z beach: Where I grew up, it was introduced more than half a century ago.
2021-04-20T03:54:24Z beach: And I believe there is some kind of consensus to use it in FLOSS work around the world.
2021-04-20T03:57:22Z MrtnDk[m]: What is 3827879332?
2021-04-20T03:59:45Z no-defun-allowed: Too large to be a Unix timestamp (for now), but it could be a CL universal time.
2021-04-20T03:59:51Z beach: It is.
2021-04-20T04:00:51Z beach: 2021-04-20 05:48:52 or something like that.
2021-04-20T04:03:22Z beach: Speaking of which, "universal" seems a bit pretentious.  I mean, it seems to be tied to a very tiny piece of the universe after all.
2021-04-20T04:04:37Z contrapunctus: beach: nice ^ xD
2021-04-20T04:04:44Z p_l: asarch: heh, 1993
2021-04-20T04:04:52Z no-defun-allowed: "Space is a very long time!"
2021-04-20T04:05:27Z p_l somewhat recently had an issue involving year around 1993, and various forks of BSD4.x
2021-04-20T04:07:14Z asarch: Yeah!
2021-04-20T04:07:15Z Nilby: I have a plan for a more universal time system, but it requires agreement on the age of the universe and gravition physics.
2021-04-20T04:07:28Z p_l: a BSD libc issue that stumped me playing with CADR emulator
2021-04-20T04:07:42Z p_l: Nilby: it would also require special reference frame, I believe
2021-04-20T04:07:43Z MrtnDk[m]: beach  Yeah, global would be more accurate, it seems.
2021-04-20T04:08:08Z contrapunctus: Or "terran" 😏
2021-04-20T04:08:23Z MrtnDk[m]: Nilby Like a universal epoch?
2021-04-20T04:08:27Z Nilby: Yes. The refreence would be part of the date.
2021-04-20T04:08:35Z Nilby: MrtnDk[m]: Yes.
2021-04-20T04:08:36Z p_l notes that people somehow miss the "C" part in UTC
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2021-04-20T04:08:53Z no-defun-allowed: As I have taken a break from concurrent and distributed programming, I have to say that I have not seen a clock in years* while reasoning about time and I don't miss them.
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2021-04-20T04:08:59Z no-defun-allowed: *approximately 0 years
2021-04-20T04:09:18Z MrtnDk[m]: p_I: Coordinated?
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2021-04-20T04:10:02Z p_l: yep
2021-04-20T04:11:00Z p_l: and it's only used for earth-centric date keeping, and even there it's not the only global time kept, because UTC makes sense for *most*, but not *all*, uses on earth
2021-04-20T04:12:03Z Nilby: Also an offset for scale, since the fundamental unit would be Plank units.
2021-04-20T04:12:50Z p_l: hell, some of the crucial clocks in use on earth are based on finite fields and have relatively short periods, thus being impossible to be useful as absolute date
2021-04-20T04:13:14Z MrtnDk[m]: Nilby: How many Plank units for a second? Approximately ...
2021-04-20T04:13:50Z Nilby: 10e-34
2021-04-20T04:13:59Z Nilby: or something?
2021-04-20T04:14:07Z MrtnDk[m]: Wow, that answer was fast.
2021-04-20T04:14:14Z no-defun-allowed: Honestly, you're asking too much. Not only do you want a total ordering on events, you want a clock too? Kids these days...
2021-04-20T04:14:58Z Nilby: I had a lot of Plank units to space.
2021-04-20T04:15:15Z Nilby: s/space/spare/
2021-04-20T04:16:03Z MrtnDk[m]: p_l  Finite fields?
2021-04-20T04:16:04Z p_l: (gps clocks operate on what can be considered finite field where the set is the whole period of a specific pseudorandom function with predefined seed)
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2021-04-20T04:17:28Z p_l: MrtnDk[m]: essentially GPS clock value is a pseudorandom number, and you get the time by finding where in the sequence of possible numbers it is
2021-04-20T04:17:58Z Nilby: p_l: I don't know much about GPS, but I would guess the units are bigger than I'm thinking of.
2021-04-20T04:19:23Z MrtnDk[m]: Nilby  If it follows the laws of physics, which seems to be a reasonable assumption.
2021-04-20T04:19:41Z p_l: there are no duplicates on the numbers, and you can get the time since the start of the period by (position clock-value +gps-clock-sequence+)
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2021-04-20T04:20:42Z MrtnDk[m]: p_l Hopefully there is a library for that. 😁
2021-04-20T04:20:51Z p_l: Nilby: because planck time by itself isn't useful in macroscale (and I suspect that using as basis of measurement might invoke certain nasal demons)
2021-04-20T04:20:54Z Nilby: MrtnDk[m]: I think a true universal time system would not actually require physica, just math. But there would have to be agreed upon cosmological reference points.
2021-04-20T04:21:06Z p_l: MrtnDk[m]: well duh, that's usually handled by the GPS receiver for you :)
2021-04-20T04:21:43Z p_l: MrtnDk[m]: translating that into time data from multiple sats is how it figures the position, after all :)
2021-04-20T04:21:57Z Nilby: I looks like GPS only goes down to 30cm?
2021-04-20T04:22:15Z p_l: in impossible to satisfy conditions, maybe
2021-04-20T04:23:16Z p_l: since disablement of SA scrambling I can see depending on CEP of 15m or so, but just in case I continue to treat GPS as having 100m error
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2021-04-20T04:25:31Z Nilby: p_l: The "timezone" in my universal time would be on "useful" offset constant from Plank units. What useful is, is quite dependant on what scale of creature you are. But we already use macroscale units based on silly wobbly Earth seconds.
2021-04-20T04:26:39Z Nilby: How many clocks seconds go to 61?
2021-04-20T04:27:24Z p_l: well, the base underlying clock doesn't use any of that babylonian numeric
2021-04-20T04:29:03Z p_l: and second is afaik at worst problematic to compare without taking local spacetime curvature in compared locations (dates based on locally counting seconds might require history of the curvature over time between known synchronizations)
2021-04-20T04:31:26Z Nilby: Right. True time actually requires something of a hash code of space and time, but I think there is a real integer number of Plank units since the Universe was size 1.
2021-04-20T04:32:27Z Nilby: And the curvature is the nonuniformity of that.
2021-04-20T04:33:08Z Nilby: Which makes sense because it's tree-like.
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2021-04-20T04:35:07Z Nilby: Sorry for off-topic. But at least I think Lisp is well positioned to handle the future time system.
2021-04-20T04:36:36Z MrtnDk[m]: I wonder why the big bang seems to have pushed the universe mostly in the time direction. I guess it is matter of perspective?
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2021-04-20T04:37:53Z Nilby: I think there's nothing to push. The universe (size/shape/age) is the time direction.
2021-04-20T04:38:33Z moon-child: MrtnDk[m]: what makes you say that?  Expansion is rampant!
2021-04-20T04:38:58Z moon-child: near as we can tell, expansion of space is superlinear wrt time
2021-04-20T04:40:01Z Nilby: Yes. I think expansiion and time is equivalent. But our measurement, or thinking about "empty" space isn't quite correct.
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2021-04-20T04:41:08Z Nilby: The much more than superlinearity is because all of history has to fit.
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2021-04-20T04:50:31Z MrtnDk[m]: Do you think measuring gravitational waves will help us change our understanding of "empty" space?
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2021-04-20T04:51:47Z Nilby: I'm not sure. But I think really understanding causality will.
2021-04-20T04:54:23Z Nilby: One problem with gravity wave communication is the disruptiveness of compression/encryption. Oh and affording the equipment.
2021-04-20T04:55:38Z p_l: MrtnDk[m]: btw, your comment about "hopefully there is a library" reminded me of how some implementation outright skirted export controls by making a dumb if against easily modified variable :D
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2021-04-20T04:58:40Z no-defun-allowed: Reminds me further of that digital TV broadcasting system for which recording is prevented using an easily-missable "don't record" bit.
2021-04-20T04:59:45Z p_l: that's common in AV world
2021-04-20T05:00:56Z MrtnDk[m]: *no-defun-allowed*  That seems like a good way to implement it. If it's illegal to record, the law should regulate that, not the hardware.
2021-04-20T05:01:57Z p_l: MrtnDk[m]: thing is, even with the bit set, the law might say that you're allowed to record
2021-04-20T05:02:22Z MrtnDk[m]: Nilby  Causality is a tough one. It seems to be embedded in the way we see most things.
2021-04-20T05:02:28Z p_l: and /somehow/ the weasel wording used to give DRM schemes legal protection sometimes fail if the DRM is too simple
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2021-04-20T05:03:46Z MrtnDk[m]: p_l  and vice versa. The law may say you're not allowed to copy, even if the bit is not set. Point being, you should follow the law, and only use the bit as guidance.
2021-04-20T05:04:20Z p_l: I dunno if they changed that later, because my layman mind immediately noticed issue in law declaring that "circumventing *successful* DRM is illegal"
2021-04-20T05:05:22Z p_l: technically the word could have been translated as effective, but the word has wildly preferred meaning of "successful" XD
2021-04-20T05:06:03Z Nilby: MrtnDk[m]: Causality is equivalent to return values of a function, so it shouldn't be that hard. It's just like practical programming, practical causality gets very complicated, very quickly.
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2021-04-20T07:35:16Z nij: Hello #lisp. I wonder if I can specify the class of multiple arguments in defmethod -
2021-04-20T07:35:38Z beach: Yes.
2021-04-20T07:35:38Z nij: Something like (defmethod greet ((foo person) (line sentence))..
2021-04-20T07:35:46Z beach: It's called "multiple dispatch"
2021-04-20T07:35:57Z nij: Hmmm.. weird. It doesn't work as expected.
2021-04-20T07:36:21Z beach: You need to be more specific.
2021-04-20T07:36:46Z nij: Yes.. I'm trying to extend some package.. so when it doesn't work it might be other problems fault.
2021-04-20T07:36:54Z nij: How about this.
2021-04-20T07:37:18Z nij: If firefighter is a subclass of person, and I have a method for both firefighter and person.
2021-04-20T07:37:41Z nij: If i apply the method on an instance of firefighter, will both methods be evaluated?
2021-04-20T07:37:59Z beach: HOLY SMOKE!  Let's try some terminology here.
2021-04-20T07:38:16Z beach: 1. Packages can not be extended, other than by adding symbols to them I guess.
2021-04-20T07:38:25Z beach: Perhaps you mean a system?
2021-04-20T07:38:28Z nij: OHHHHH again yes system..
2021-04-20T07:38:46Z nij: sorry for that
2021-04-20T07:38:53Z beach: 2. You don't "apply methods", you "call generic functions".
2021-04-20T07:39:16Z nij: Ok. So I call that generic function on an instance of firefighter.
2021-04-20T07:39:20Z beach: 3. Methods are not "evaluated".  They are "called" or "invoked".
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2021-04-20T07:39:27Z nij: Will both methods be called?
2021-04-20T07:39:36Z beach: Then only the most specific method will be called.
2021-04-20T07:39:40Z nij: beach: I get your "Holly Smoke" xD
2021-04-20T07:39:54Z beach: Unless you have a method combination that invokes them all, like LIST or PROGN.
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2021-04-20T07:40:27Z beach: If you want to invoke the less specific one, with the standard method combination, you need to call CALL-NEXT-METHOD.
2021-04-20T07:40:33Z beach: clhs call-next-method
2021-04-20T07:40:37Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_call_n.htm
2021-04-20T07:41:05Z nij: How about call-next-next-method ;)?
2021-04-20T07:42:12Z beach: If, in your method specialized to FIREFIGHTER you invoke (CALL-NEXT-METHOD), then the method specialized to PERSON will be invoked.
2021-04-20T07:43:10Z nij: So it will apply to the most specific once by default. Sure.
2021-04-20T07:43:22Z beach: If you want a generic function for which you want every primary applicable method to be called, then use a different method combination, like PROGN.
2021-04-20T07:43:33Z nij: Harder - say the generic function has two variables
2021-04-20T07:44:17Z beach: 4. Generic functions don't have "variables".  They usually have "parameters".
2021-04-20T07:44:27Z nij: :-( note taken
2021-04-20T07:45:16Z nij: Say the generic function has two parameters, both are of class person or firefighter.
2021-04-20T07:45:22Z nij: So there are four situations now.
2021-04-20T07:45:44Z nij: (* 2 2 ) ; => 4
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2021-04-20T07:46:29Z nij: But suppose that the (and only the) case (firefighter, firefighter) hasn't been implemented.
2021-04-20T07:46:57Z nij: What would happen if I apply the generic function on (x, y), where both x and y are instances of firefighter?
2021-04-20T07:47:15Z nij: Will Lisp be smart enough to call the next specified method?
2021-04-20T07:47:46Z nij: Cuz technically speaking x and y are also instances of person.. so we cannot say it hasn't been implemented for them.
2021-04-20T07:48:05Z nij: I hope that makes sense..
2021-04-20T07:48:09Z beach: You said that only one method exists.  That's what it means to say "only the case firefighter and firefighter has been implemented."
2021-04-20T07:48:40Z nij: nono.. I said
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2021-04-20T07:48:56Z nij: only and only the case of (firefighter, firefighter) has NOT been implemented.
2021-04-20T07:49:10Z beach: Oh, sorry.
2021-04-20T07:49:21Z nij: The other three cases, namely (person, person), (person, ff), (ff, person), are all implemented.
2021-04-20T07:49:54Z nij: I can generalize this question to N parameters..
2021-04-20T07:50:00Z nij: how would CLOS decide?
2021-04-20T07:50:01Z beach: A method is applicable if it is given a superclass of the class it specializes to.  So a method that specializes to PERSON is applicable to a FIREFIGHTER.  That's the same in every object-oriented programming language.
2021-04-20T07:50:33Z nij: Yes, but now CLOS needs to decide whether it should call the method for (person, ff) or the method for (ff, person).
2021-04-20T07:50:44Z nij: Both methods are equally specific in this context.
2021-04-20T07:50:57Z beach: The specificity order between methods is clearly defined in the Common Lisp HyperSpec.
2021-04-20T07:51:20Z no-defun-allowed: Then the argument precedence order is used, which defaults to choosing the most specific method for the first argument, then second, then so on.
2021-04-20T07:51:45Z beach: nij: What no-defun-allowed said.
2021-04-20T07:51:47Z no-defun-allowed: So it would choose the method specialized on (firefighter person).
2021-04-20T07:51:56Z nij: no-defun-allowed: Oh :)
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2021-04-20T07:52:58Z nij: Thanks beach no-defun-allowed! Lemme get back to my project then. I think I understand. The problems must have come from another place.
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2021-04-20T07:53:28Z beach: How does the problem manifest itself?
2021-04-20T07:54:58Z beach: A common mistake is to forget the package prefix of the name of the generic function given in the DEFMETHOD form, which results in an unrelated method being created.  To check that, you can use the inspector to inspect the generic function and check that it has all the methods you expect.
2021-04-20T07:55:54Z nij: Hmm.. I have (defmethod ((a x) (b y)) ..)
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2021-04-20T07:56:12Z nij: Which should work as I called on (a,b). But it didn't.
2021-04-20T07:56:19Z beach: Then you need to supply a name of a generic function too.
2021-04-20T07:56:22Z nij: However, by taking y away.. it works.
2021-04-20T07:56:35Z nij: oh no no I do have a name.. hmm hard to explain.
2021-04-20T07:56:46Z beach: The parameter comes before the class name.
2021-04-20T07:57:00Z nij: (defmethod f ((a x) (b y)) ...) ;; doesn't work
2021-04-20T07:57:04Z beach: (defmethod <name> ((x a) (y b)) ...) if A and B are classes.
2021-04-20T07:57:10Z nij: (defmethod f ((a x) b ) ...) ;; works
2021-04-20T07:57:37Z beach: You really have classes named x and y and parameters named a and b?
2021-04-20T07:57:46Z beach: That's very unusual.
2021-04-20T07:57:57Z nij: No. I'm trying to give an easier version.
2021-04-20T07:58:36Z beach: Also "doesn't work" is not enough information.
2021-04-20T07:59:07Z nij: Oh! I should just call that in a repl and see what happens.
2021-04-20T07:59:46Z nij: Lemme give it a try. At least I know how defmethod works. I'm sure it's some other problem related to the infrastructure of the system.
2021-04-20T08:00:15Z Nilby: I can understand learn by reading, learn by doing, learn by listening, even learn by the Socratic method, but I really don't understand learn by long tedious online chat that could have been answered by 1 line of code.
2021-04-20T08:02:03Z beach: Nilby: I am like you.  But I often observe this "learning technique", so it must be common.
2021-04-20T08:02:10Z Nilby: I'm frequently very impressed by beach's diligent didactic patience
2021-04-20T08:02:38Z Nilby: It must be, seeing how popular it seems.
2021-04-20T08:02:55Z beach: Thanks!  My patience depends on my mood that day.
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2021-04-20T08:03:29Z nij: Thanks for your patience :)
2021-04-20T08:04:03Z nij: Nilby: the problem is tricky because when you haven't learned it, you wouldn't have known which line of code you're looking at.
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2021-04-20T08:04:20Z nij: It's an excuse I know. But it's also why it's common.
2021-04-20T08:04:46Z nij: Especially you are dealing with another problem, in which the quesiton is just a subsubsubproblem.
2021-04-20T08:04:58Z Nilby: nij: I'm also impressed by your engetic curiosity and persistence.
2021-04-20T08:05:36Z beach: Well, personally, I don't think I would have attempted a DEFMETHOD form without reading Keene's book and the PCL chapters on CLOS.  Probably also the relevant Common Lisp HyperSpec pages.
2021-04-20T08:06:09Z nij: You folks must have been more energetic and curious than I am... really admire your approach.
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2021-04-20T08:06:36Z nij: I'm just a lazy folk who wants to get an answer without reading thousands of lines.
2021-04-20T08:06:51Z nij: (to find that particular line of code)
2021-04-20T08:06:55Z beach: Nilby: Part of the reason for my relative patience with nij, is that nij seems to be making progress, and seems to want to follow advice, which may result in some net contributions to the community one day.
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2021-04-20T08:07:12Z nij: beach: I  do hope that !
2021-04-20T08:07:13Z beach: Nilby: Some people seeking advice here are not like that at all.
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2021-04-20T08:07:43Z Nilby: beach: That very good of you. We do need more of that.
2021-04-20T08:08:06Z beach: nij: My advice for you is to get used to reading documentation more.  It really helps with the understanding of the language, and of programming in general.
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2021-04-20T08:08:40Z nij: Is it just for me, or CLHS is some thing that really takes time?
2021-04-20T08:08:53Z nij: It's not something that I could understand by reading the first 3~5 times.
2021-04-20T08:09:06Z beach: nij: It takes time because it is not meant for the application programmer.
2021-04-20T08:09:12Z nij: I also suspect that I understand a piece of it just because I have had experience on that part already.
2021-04-20T08:09:18Z beach: It is a document meant for people creating Common Lisp systems.
2021-04-20T08:09:25Z nij: Yeah.
2021-04-20T08:09:43Z beach: But PCL and Keene's book are not like that.
2021-04-20T08:09:54Z nij: Well, what I mean is that though CLHS is thorough and complete, one cannot get much from it without experiencing the repl.
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2021-04-20T08:11:16Z nij: You think it's more proper to read two books before starting to use CLOS?
2021-04-20T08:11:53Z nij: Having to read hundreds or thousands of technical papers I find that impractical..
2021-04-20T08:12:13Z nij: I apply that mindset on learning lisp too.. maybe what I have is not a good approach.
2021-04-20T08:12:59Z nij: My way: do + experience => encounter specific quesiton => locate answer in the ocean of answers => apply
2021-04-20T08:13:15Z nij: the third step is the trickest.. it really depends on the community and their patience
2021-04-20T08:13:50Z nij: When there's not enough channel for communication, sure, I will read two books to get started with CLOS.
2021-04-20T08:14:12Z nij: But now everything is online.. and if I could get some advice here, I'd first try.
2021-04-20T08:14:29Z nij: I thought that's the point of #lisp. Maybe I'm exploiting too much. I hope that's not the case..
2021-04-20T08:17:48Z Nilby: I think people usually like to answer questions. And frequently simple questions create insteresting discussion.
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2021-04-20T08:25:19Z beach: minion: memo for nij: That is not quite the point of #lisp.  And #clschool was created for that reason.  It is just that #lisp participants are tolerant with such questions; especially when things are otherwise quiet.
2021-04-20T08:25:19Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell nij when he/she/it next speaks.
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2021-04-20T08:34:09Z nij: I saw the log. Sorry my wm crashed.
2021-04-20T08:34:09Z minion: nij, memo from beach: That is not quite the point of #lisp.  And #clschool was created for that reason.  It is just that #lisp participants are tolerant with such questions; especially when things are otherwise quiet.
2021-04-20T08:34:33Z nij: Hm. What's the point of #lisp, then?
2021-04-20T08:36:15Z beach: One purpose of it is to discuss how to implement various Common Lisp constructs efficiently.  Other purposes include libraries to create, applications to write, how to design protocols, how to organize a library or an application, etc.
2021-04-20T08:36:48Z beach: Those would be discussions between people who already know a large part of the language.
2021-04-20T08:37:25Z beach: Some people discuss ways to make Common Lisp more widely used.
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2021-04-20T08:37:43Z nij: I see. It's more about moving the community forward.
2021-04-20T08:37:56Z beach: That sounds like a good summary.
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2021-04-20T08:41:16Z Nilby: I just like to make Lisp jokes, and get inspiration for my work from the super smart people.
2021-04-20T08:42:35Z nij: That's also helpful for the community. We need more jokes -
2021-04-20T08:46:07Z Nilby: e.g.: Q: How many CL experts does it take to answer a question?
2021-04-20T08:46:18Z Nilby: A: most-posistive-bignum
2021-04-20T08:46:35Z beach: Heh, nice!
2021-04-20T08:47:09Z Odin- is unconvinced.
2021-04-20T08:47:22Z Odin-: That's a finite number by definition, isn't it? :)
2021-04-20T08:47:33Z nij:  CL-USER> most-positive-bignum
2021-04-20T08:47:34Z nij: ; Debugger entered on #<UNBOUND-VARIABLE MOST-POSITIVE-BIGNUM {100748F653}>
2021-04-20T08:47:36Z nij has no idea
2021-04-20T08:47:54Z beach: *sigh*
2021-04-20T08:48:03Z no-defun-allowed (apropos "BIGNUM")
2021-04-20T08:48:11Z no-defun-allowed: SB-KERNEL:MAXIMUM-BIGNUM-LENGTH = 36028797018963967
2021-04-20T08:48:50Z Odin-: nij: It's not defined, but an analogy to most-positive-fixnum, I presume. (And the float versions.)
2021-04-20T08:49:10Z no-defun-allowed M-. maximum-bignum-length
2021-04-20T08:49:24Z nij: Yeah I just figured. Maybe Nilby's answer was intended for an error.
2021-04-20T08:49:37Z no-defun-allowed: Okay, most-positive-bignum would be (1- (expt 2 36028797018963967)) I figure.
2021-04-20T08:50:14Z Nilby: no-defun-allowed: TIL Now I have to delete that joke from the book :o
2021-04-20T08:50:36Z no-defun-allowed: My apologies. Though jwz actually created a most-positive-bignum on a TI Lisp machine once.
2021-04-20T08:51:19Z no-defun-allowed: From memory, that was close to (expt 2 (* 512 1024)) but I likely forgot.
2021-04-20T08:52:15Z Odin-: Huh. most-positive-fixnum must be 2^15-1 or higher? Surely that's tricky at best on machines with 16-bit pointers.
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2021-04-20T08:52:48Z no-defun-allowed: https://www.jwz.org/blog/2008/03/most-positive-bignum/ 524KB of bignum.
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2021-04-20T08:53:22Z no-defun-allowed: Odin-: I suppose you use the "I wrote a Lisp interpreter in C!!!1!" technique (name my own) and heap-allocate fixnums if tagging wouldn't work.
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2021-04-20T08:54:45Z no-defun-allowed: For your amusement, that links to ABCL running on a JVM on SBCL: http://paste.lisp.org/display/2096
2021-04-20T08:54:55Z Nilby: Even worse, my bit-rotted brain must have stolen the joke from jwz, who gave it much more thorough treatment
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2021-04-20T08:55:41Z Odin-: no-defun-allowed: Wouldn't the switch between immediate and heap allocated be the 'reasonable' place to put the switch between fixnum and bignum, though?
2021-04-20T08:55:57Z no-defun-allowed: It would, yes.
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2021-04-20T08:56:43Z no-defun-allowed: There is another limit still: array-total-size-limit must be greater or equal to 1024, but still a FIXNUM. But no one has a 12-bit machine for that to be a problem.
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2021-04-20T08:57:50Z Odin-: Pointers tend to be at least 16 bits in octet-oriented systems, so, yeah.
2021-04-20T08:59:46Z no-defun-allowed: I think there was one Microchip microcontroller with 12-bit words, but getting CL on that would pose many more problems.
2021-04-20T08:59:52Z Odin- is messing around with uLisp, a (so far) interpreted system that can run on something as small as an Arduino Uno.
2021-04-20T09:00:24Z Odin-: It's an interesting exercise.
2021-04-20T09:00:28Z no-defun-allowed: That would use 16-bit pointers, and does it expose fixnum-ness to the user?
2021-04-20T09:00:54Z Odin-: It didn't have any immediate objects until I got to it... :p
2021-04-20T09:00:58Z no-defun-allowed: Python does not, so MicroPython can get away with actually having fixnums (unlike CPython).
2021-04-20T09:02:27Z Odin-: Oh, interesting.
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2021-04-20T09:06:39Z Nilby: I'm trying really hard to resist the urge to port make-most-positive-bignum to sbcl.
2021-04-20T09:13:22Z jackdaniel: cl-user> most-positive-bignum ; STORAGE-CONDITION signalled: Storage is exhausted.
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2021-04-20T09:23:31Z Nilby: #<massively-positive-bignum> is seeming more attractive, but might thwart my Collatz disprover
2021-04-20T09:23:57Z jackdaniel: #<sceptic-bignum>
2021-04-20T09:28:48Z beach: I remember someone is/was working on a module that provides type proclamations for all standard functions.  But I can't remember who.  Maybe scymtym?
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2021-04-20T09:38:26Z nij: Why should there be a maximal integer in Lisp?
2021-04-20T09:38:48Z jackdaniel: nij: there isn't, that's a point
2021-04-20T09:38:56Z jackdaniel: but lisp runs on a physical machine with a finite amount of memory
2021-04-20T09:39:12Z jackdaniel: that's why allocating too big int may cause a storage exhaustion
2021-04-20T09:39:44Z nij: Indeed.
2021-04-20T09:39:53Z nij: (expt 2 10000000000000000000) crashes my stumpwm.
2021-04-20T09:40:35Z no-defun-allowed: When runs out of word bits, one uses primary memory. When one runs out of primary, one uses secondary memory. When one runs out of secondary...
2021-04-20T09:40:47Z jackdaniel: it shouldn't  - it should signal a condition
2021-04-20T09:41:06Z jackdaniel: but that's a bit tricky, because when you are out of memory, then you need to take a special precaution in the condition signalling code
2021-04-20T09:41:12Z jackdaniel: to not try to allocate more :)
2021-04-20T09:41:22Z nij: StumpWM Crashed With an Unhandled Error!
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2021-04-20T09:41:42Z jackdaniel: when one runs out of secondory they take out their pen and paper and scribble
2021-04-20T09:41:46Z nij: when secondary is ran out.. why not use the disk?
2021-04-20T09:42:13Z nij: I figure there are some edge cases not handled well in stumpwm.
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2021-04-20T09:44:53Z beach: nij: Disk *is* secondary memory.
2021-04-20T09:46:44Z contrapunctus: jackdaniel: "when one runs out of secondory they take out their pen and paper and scribble" lol
2021-04-20T09:47:22Z nij: they first have to have enough resources to ssh into their pen and pencil
2021-04-20T09:47:38Z nij: otherwise it doesn't work
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2021-04-20T09:55:24Z beach: Actually, a module for type proclamations of all standard functions ought to also contain other properties of those functions, like whether it has side effects, whether it might be consing, etc.
2021-04-20T09:56:11Z jackdaniel: ecl cmp module has a file with such proclamations
2021-04-20T09:56:47Z jackdaniel: beach: https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/-/blob/develop/src/cmp/proclamations.lsp
2021-04-20T09:57:06Z beach: I can imagine.  I think I'll remove the description of such a module from the SICL specification, together with any code for it that I may have started at some point.
2021-04-20T09:58:38Z beach: Yes, like that.  I see no reason to repeat such a thing as part of SICL.  It should be a completely separate repository.
2021-04-20T09:59:48Z jackdaniel: I imagine that particular implementations may want to provide proclamations for their extensions and internals (for sake of the compiler)
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2021-04-20T10:00:09Z beach: Sounds likely, yes.
2021-04-20T10:00:11Z jackdaniel: also I wonder whether some proclamations of standard functions could vary between implementations
2021-04-20T10:00:25Z jackdaniel: i.e -- "our cl:<foo> doesn't cons"
2021-04-20T10:00:53Z beach: That too.  Especially for functions with undefined behavior according to the Common Lisp HyperSpec.
2021-04-20T10:01:59Z Nilby: Aren't there a fair amount of implementation specific ftypes? like upgraded-array-element-type or even char-int ?
2021-04-20T10:02:00Z beach: So, again, we need a protocol with a CLIENT parameter, so that it can be adapted and/or extended by client code.
2021-04-20T10:03:09Z beach: Nilby: Sure.  But I am also pretty sure that there are lots of functions that have completely standardized behavior.
2021-04-20T10:04:03Z jackdaniel: (I have a strong suspicion that #'cons may cons in most implementations :)
2021-04-20T10:04:08Z Nilby: Right. Btw, I think CLient would be a good name for something
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2021-04-20T10:04:16Z jackdaniel: of course we forget about sufficiently smart compilers
2021-04-20T10:04:55Z Nilby: nooo! :O we just nearly got sufficiently smart compilers
2021-04-20T10:04:58Z beach: Either way, it would be good to have a defined protocol for this stuff.
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2021-04-20T10:05:31Z jackdaniel: cl-repl> (cons 1 1) ; Condition of type SUFFICIENTLY-SMART-COMPILER: That's dumb, I won't allow you to do that.
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2021-04-20T10:06:40Z Nilby: That seems closer to the next level: SNARKY-COMPILER
2021-04-20T10:07:04Z Nilby: or maybe smart-ass-compiler
2021-04-20T10:07:05Z jackdaniel: cl-repl> (cons 1 1) ; Condition of type SNARKY-COMPILER-MESSAGE: yeah, sure. as if.
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2021-04-20T10:07:32Z Nilby: which I would totaly use :)
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2021-04-20T10:11:50Z jmercouris: anything like Pharo exist for CL?
2021-04-20T10:11:55Z jmercouris: anyone applied some of the concepts to CL?
2021-04-20T10:14:04Z beach: jmercouris: If you tell us what Pharo is/does, then people who don't know Pharo might have an answer for you.
2021-04-20T10:14:21Z jackdaniel: it is smalltalk incarnation
2021-04-20T10:15:00Z jackdaniel: and yes, i.e some cl implementations have image-based runtime
2021-04-20T10:15:37Z jackdaniel: and you may find a few inspectors in mcclim codebase - mop gives good tools for working and inspective live systems
2021-04-20T10:16:34Z jackdaniel: what cl doesn't have is a blessed ide with all features integrated - slime is the closest thing to that in the free software world
2021-04-20T10:17:12Z beach: But an IDE is being worked on.  Slowly, but still...
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2021-04-20T10:19:45Z beach: So if we had a defined protocol for various features of functions, and if that protocol had a CLIENT parameter for its functions, then it could be used for implementation-defined functions as well.
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2021-04-20T10:20:11Z beach: Anyone interested in creating such a module?
2021-04-20T10:20:26Z beach: ... unless it exists, of course.
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2021-04-20T10:32:55Z jmercouris: The pieces of the puzzle exist, but not together it seems
2021-04-20T10:33:41Z Nilby: jmercouris: I tried Pharo, and I thought I would like it, but something about it bugged me. I used to have a TI machine on my desk that could boot into either Smalltalk or Lisp, both with a similarly advanced GUI. I always felt better in the Lisp side, but it's hard to explain why. lukego mentioned he was working in Pharo recently and went back to CL, so maybe he has some insight.
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2021-04-20T11:22:25Z jmercouris: I just want to steal some ideas and bring them into a CL IDE
2021-04-20T11:22:43Z jackdaniel: are you writing a cl ide?
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2021-04-20T11:23:30Z phoe: according to Zawinski's Law, every program attempts to expand until it is possible to write Lisp code in it
2021-04-20T11:23:37Z phoe: I assume nyxt is no exception
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2021-04-20T11:37:45Z jackdaniel: naming in software is a hard problem, so I will propose one: phyro ,)
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2021-04-20T12:30:14Z ldbeth: good evening
2021-04-20T12:30:56Z zefram22: abend
2021-04-20T12:32:06Z flip214: next project should be "clakdaniej"
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2021-04-20T12:33:03Z jackdaniel: :)
2021-04-20T12:33:36Z beach: zefram22: Are you new here?  I don't recognize your nick.
2021-04-20T12:35:06Z zefram22: yup
2021-04-20T12:35:18Z beach: Great!  What brings you to #lisp?
2021-04-20T12:36:29Z zefram22: oh, curiousity havent used lisp in years, was suprised others still were
2021-04-20T12:36:30Z lukego: jmercouris: Could alternatively extend GToolkit (http://gtoolkit.com/) to act as a Common Lisp dev environment i.e. swap out Emacs for a "full Lisp Machine" level UI (albeit one written in Smalltalk.)
2021-04-20T12:37:02Z beach: zefram22: I think you will find that there is lots of activity.  Here and in several other channels.
2021-04-20T12:37:16Z lukego: but it's hard with systems written half in one language and half in the other.
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2021-04-20T12:38:07Z zefram22: yay, something to keep the creative juice flowing
2021-04-20T12:39:05Z zefram22: yeah, legacy integration is no fun
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2021-04-20T12:40:42Z jackdaniel: I think that the name "Smalllisp" has at least three puns hidden :)
2021-04-20T12:41:31Z beach: jmercouris: Can I assume you are aware of components such as Clouseau, the CLIM listener, and the Second Climacs project?  What would your design look like?
2021-04-20T12:43:13Z beach: jmercouris: Like, for instance, how would you handle indentation and highlighting?  And what would your debugger look like?
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2021-04-20T12:44:01Z beach: zefram22: Are you planning to write some Common Lisp code?
2021-04-20T12:46:23Z zefram22: only if i have a proper use case
2021-04-20T12:47:18Z beach: For yourself you mean?  Otherwise, there is plenty of code needed.
2021-04-20T12:47:23Z jackdaniel bestowes a proper use case to zefram22 
2021-04-20T12:47:35Z jackdaniel: bestows?
2021-04-20T12:47:42Z jackdaniel: yes, bestows:)
2021-04-20T12:47:49Z lukego: jmercouris: Pharo/GToolkit is also a bit too integrated for my taste. I know that's the idea and there's a benefit to doing everything in one unified tool -- but there's also a cost to cutting me off from my preferred text editor, git client, etc, and forcing me to use their own relatively primitive and immature versions.
2021-04-20T12:47:51Z contrapunctus: jackdaniel: « naming in software is a hard problem, so I will propose one: phyro ,) » http://s3.amazonaws.com/defunkt.baconfile.com/phosphorous.pdf
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2021-04-20T12:48:10Z zefram22: been lookin for dis, thanks
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2021-04-20T12:48:41Z beach: zefram22: Here is a list of projects, in case you are looking for something to do: http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/suggested-projects.html
2021-04-20T12:48:54Z zefram22: wonder if i can parse bestokes
2021-04-20T12:48:58Z lukego: jmercouris: I'm not sure exactly where is the sweet spot on integration. Maybe there's also something to be said for a post-modern environment that embraces more diverse tools e.g. builds its debugger on rr as the bottom layer and does back-in-time lisp-level debugging. I dunno.
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2021-04-20T12:50:48Z jackdaniel: contrapunctus: bringing lisp to 21 century by replacing hyphens with camel case made me chuckle :)
2021-04-20T12:51:05Z jackdaniel: is it meant as a joke?
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2021-04-20T12:56:23Z contrapunctus: jackdaniel: haha, yes, it's from r/lispmemes
2021-04-20T12:56:31Z contrapunctus: * I found it on
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2021-04-20T12:58:16Z semz: not too far off from many "modernization" attempts, sadly
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2021-04-20T13:08:27Z semz: Is there a project you'd recommend as a "good" example of using numerous or very advanced MOP concepts? While reading TAOMP I always get this feeling of a powerful tool that is simply overkill in many situations, so I'm trying to get an idea of where to use it.
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2021-04-20T13:09:56Z beach: semz: TAOMP = AMOP?
2021-04-20T13:10:58Z beach: semz: I don't think you will find many projects that use numerous MOP features, but you will find many projects that each relies on a specific MOP feature.
2021-04-20T13:11:10Z semz: Ah, I guess the "The" is dropped.
2021-04-20T13:11:12Z semz: But yes
2021-04-20T13:12:21Z semz: oh, I also apparently switched the M and O
2021-04-20T13:12:26Z semz: must be TAOCP influence
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2021-04-20T13:22:14Z theseb: Anyone know about implementing a Lisp compiler that emits assembly?  I'm stuck
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2021-04-20T13:22:21Z beach: semz: So for instance the "stealth mixin" library uses the possibility of customizing ENSURE-CLASS-USING-CLASS.  And Costanza (I think it was) used the MOP to create a metaclass that used special variables as backing store for slots (for thread savety).
2021-04-20T13:22:43Z Xach: theseb: you could look at mezzano or movitz.
2021-04-20T13:23:02Z beach: theseb: What would you do with the assembly output?
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2021-04-20T13:23:13Z semz: beach: Thanks, these sound like good starting points.
2021-04-20T13:23:13Z Xach: theseb: or sbcl, cmucl, clozure cl, Anatomy of Lisp, Lisp in Small Pieces.
2021-04-20T13:23:39Z theseb: beach: i created a simple cpu emulator...I want to be able to compile the assembly to machine code and have it actually work
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2021-04-20T13:24:11Z theseb: beach: I implemented eval in python
2021-04-20T13:24:42Z theseb: beach: some thought I had were to implement eval in my tiny lisp and then implement eval in a tiny C like language and then write a compiler for that tiny c lang?
2021-04-20T13:25:00Z theseb: beach: seems more stages are needed to avoid the mental block i have
2021-04-20T13:25:13Z beach: theseb: I am not so sure that many Common Lisp systems emit assembly that can then be fed to a traditional assembler.  Plus, the machine code that Common Lisp compilers emit is highly dependent on the runtime.
2021-04-20T13:27:55Z theseb: beach: Wait...you seem to be saying there is some issue with converting common lisp to assembler
2021-04-20T13:28:13Z theseb: or that somehow the assembly has to be special in some way
2021-04-20T13:28:26Z splittist: theseb: do you mean assembly, or machine code?
2021-04-20T13:28:46Z theseb: splittist: assembly as in ADD r1, r2, r3    LOAD, STORE ,etc
2021-04-20T13:28:51Z _death: theseb: not CL, but check http://canonical.org/~kragen/sw/urscheme/
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2021-04-20T13:29:26Z beach: theseb: No, of course not.  But Common Lisp systems generate code that is meant to work with a runtime, so you can't expect that code to run without the Common Lisp system that generated it.
2021-04-20T13:29:44Z White_Flame: also, the 6502/NES assembler in lisp was an interesting assembly-level view of things
2021-04-20T13:29:55Z theseb: beach: runtime == virtual machine like JVM?
2021-04-20T13:30:22Z theseb: bytecode n' all that?
2021-04-20T13:31:06Z beach: theseb: No, I mean how to find a function given a function name, how to find non-trivial constants, how to invoke effective methods.
2021-04-20T13:31:26Z theseb: beach: i think in SICP they implemented scheme in a register machine...that is more like what I want to do
2021-04-20T13:32:03Z beach: Scheme has similar issues, but not quite as many perhaps.
2021-04-20T13:32:12Z theseb: beach: yea! i agree...all the minutia is making my head blow up....i somehow need to split this into lots of doable pieces...i'm going crazy
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2021-04-20T13:34:33Z beach: theseb: I have worked for around 13 years (not full time every year) on SICL, and there is still some work to be done before native code can be executed.
2021-04-20T13:35:05Z beach: Scheme is simpler, of course.
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2021-04-20T13:36:42Z theseb: beach: can you outline the broad outlines of how you'd implement a compiler for at least just the bare bones basics of common lisp?
2021-04-20T13:37:29Z theseb: beach: is my ideas somehow the standard way to do it?....implement in a lisp subset then implement that in a c subset then implement c subset in assembly?
2021-04-20T13:37:41Z theseb: beach: i feel like that might be the general steps but not sure
2021-04-20T13:38:41Z beach: That is the way I present in the first presentation in my series "Creating a Common Lisp implementation", and that is also how many systems are written.  And it is absolutely not how I would do it, as parts 1, 2, and 3 talk about.
2021-04-20T13:39:14Z theseb: a compiler is about transforming language X to Y to it makes sense (i think) you'd teach students to break it up into baby steps X -> A -> B -> C -> Y but what do i know
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2021-04-20T13:39:26Z theseb: s/to/so
2021-04-20T13:39:29Z White_Flame: while it might not be the first step, since you're targeting a specific platform, you should design the ABI and figure out how things like tagging, dynamic bindings, condition handlers, GC information, etc, are implemented
2021-04-20T13:39:42Z White_Flame: that can give you a sense of the type of data you need to generate, which gives you a more concrete target to transform into
2021-04-20T13:40:18Z beach: theseb: For SICL, we use the full Common Lisp language to implement every module, and we generate machine code directly from Common Lisp code, translating the source to AST, the AST to intermediate representation, and the intermediate representation to machine code.
2021-04-20T13:43:03Z Odin-: theseb: C has a runtime. It's often called "the operating system".
2021-04-20T13:43:13Z theseb: beach: so you do CL -> "intermediate representation" -> machine code
2021-04-20T13:43:29Z theseb: beach: is your "intermediate representation" more lisp-like or c-like? just curious
2021-04-20T13:43:39Z White_Flame: Odin-: or the stdlibs
2021-04-20T13:43:42Z beach: It is a pretty traditional control graph.
2021-04-20T13:44:13Z beach: A graph of instructions.  See any book on compilers, e.g., Muchnick.
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2021-04-20T13:45:04Z beach: theseb: CL -> AST -> IR -> machine code
2021-04-20T13:45:32Z theseb: beach: i always felt like lisp was sort of an AST already so not sure why you had to parse CL into your AST
2021-04-20T13:45:39Z Odin-: White_Flame: Well, yes. And on most contemporary systems, it's not easy to distinguish those from the rest of the OS.
2021-04-20T13:45:56Z theseb: beach: seems like an unnecessary extra loop around the horn
2021-04-20T13:46:07Z Odin-: CL is ... not straightforward.
2021-04-20T13:46:09Z Odin-: At all.
2021-04-20T13:46:13Z beach: theseb: The AST contains things like source position, and it has macros expanded already as required by "minimal compilation".
2021-04-20T13:47:10Z Odin-: theseb: What kind of assembler are you thinking about?
2021-04-20T13:47:34Z theseb: Odin-: for a really simple assembly lang instruction set I made up
2021-04-20T13:47:57Z theseb: Odin-: however, even if I targeted a "real" ISA like x86 note sure it would be much easier
2021-04-20T13:48:02Z beach: theseb: If you want to give error/warning messages in terms of the code that the programmer wrote and give the source location of the relevant code, you can't do simple transformations on Common Lisp source code.
2021-04-20T13:48:30Z Odin-: theseb: x86 is a nightmare, so, no, pretty sure it wouldn't.
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2021-04-20T13:50:12Z theseb: beach: thanks for sharing your thoughts
2021-04-20T13:50:17Z beach: Sure.
2021-04-20T13:50:30Z Odin-: theseb: The thing here is that you need to consider calling conventions, stack layout, and all kinds of further detail, and that's just to get to the point where you have something to compile _to_.
2021-04-20T13:52:42Z theseb: Odin-: well things like stack layout and calling conventions might be annoying but they aren't mind blowing.....what was mind blowing was not even knowing the general brush strokes...i think now i realize having lots of intermediate stages at least is part of the "general brush strokes"
2021-04-20T13:53:47Z Bike: well. you don't really need much of an IR for a non-optimizing compiler.
2021-04-20T13:53:47Z White_Flame: "write a compiler" and "write a CL compiler" are basically 2 tasks.  Are you familiar with the former?
2021-04-20T13:54:18Z semz: Writing something that merely _targets_ x86 is not that difficult. The big issue is generating efficient code.
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2021-04-20T13:55:39Z theseb: White_Flame: no ;)
2021-04-20T13:56:11Z White_Flame: I really enjoyed this course, which is wonderfully concise and practical: https://www.cs.cornell.edu/courses/cs6120/2020fa/self-guided/
2021-04-20T13:56:45Z White_Flame: of course, for general compiler stuff, not CL specific.  But since it totally skips the lexer/parser stuff intentionally, the meat is common to most languages
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2021-04-20T13:57:15Z theseb: White_Flame: nice thanks
2021-04-20T13:57:48Z White_Flame: compilers are things that are actually quick to demystify
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2021-04-20T13:59:49Z theseb: White_Flame: good to know
2021-04-20T14:00:00Z theseb: White_Flame: just have to confront your fears ;)
2021-04-20T14:00:50Z Odin-: https://craftinginterpreters.com/ <-- Despite the name, it does do compiling. Just to a stack-based VM rather than a register machine. :p
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2021-04-20T14:06:15Z jdz: I've found the "Moving Forth" series very inspiring: http://www.bradrodriguez.com/papers/index.html
2021-04-20T14:08:04Z White_Flame: but yeah, if you've not done compilers before, and want to map down to "good code" for a specific ISA, CL is certainly going to be larger challenge than something lower level
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2021-04-20T14:10:59Z beach: theseb: Bike is right.  If you don't need optimization and debugging information, you don't need much of an IR.
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2021-04-20T14:22:06Z splittist: You could develop within your lisp system by building things in a static-area byte vector and calling them. What could go wrong?
2021-04-20T14:38:18Z jmercouris: (format nil "~&~a~%" '(setf (uiop:getenv "\"xyz\"") "\"1\"")) -> (SETF (GETENV \"xyz\") \"1\")
2021-04-20T14:38:25Z jmercouris: what happened to UIOP? why did it disappear?
2021-04-20T14:38:31Z jmercouris: should I be using a different format directive?
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2021-04-20T14:39:37Z _death: ~S
2021-04-20T14:40:02Z _death: also, you may want to bind *package* to the keyword package
2021-04-20T14:41:18Z jmercouris: I see, I had misunderstood ~S
2021-04-20T14:43:37Z easye: Nice to see NyXT in Quicklisp!  It ran pretty easily under Linux for me.
2021-04-20T14:43:46Z jmercouris: glad to hear it!
2021-04-20T14:46:19Z beach: jmercouris: Did you see my questions about your IDE plans?
2021-04-20T14:46:28Z jmercouris: beach: I did not, let me look on my phone
2021-04-20T14:46:34Z beach: OK.
2021-04-20T14:47:44Z jmercouris: OK so the question is about defining a protocol for such an IDE?
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2021-04-20T14:48:27Z beach: jmercouris: I am asking about the overall design that you imagine.
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2021-04-20T14:48:43Z beach: jmercouris: Will it include an editor, debugger, etc?
2021-04-20T14:48:46Z jmercouris: beach: Programmatic design, or UX design?
2021-04-20T14:48:53Z jmercouris: It will include an editor, debugger, etc
2021-04-20T14:49:13Z beach: jmercouris: And how will you handle indentation, highlighting etc.?
2021-04-20T14:49:19Z beach: ... in the editor.
2021-04-20T14:49:23Z jmercouris: that's a good question
2021-04-20T14:49:31Z jmercouris: highlighting is easy enough
2021-04-20T14:49:33Z beach: And what will the debugger look like, to the user I mean.
2021-04-20T14:49:37Z beach: jmercouris: Oh?
2021-04-20T14:50:00Z jmercouris: the debugger, I imagine will be a friendlier version of slime
2021-04-20T14:50:05Z beach: jmercouris: Because the plans we have use semantic highlighting, and you can't do that unless you include information from the compiler.
2021-04-20T14:50:19Z jmercouris: ah, I thought you meant just marking points and dragging
2021-04-20T14:50:42Z jmercouris: so you mean something akin to the sly feature where you can make little labels?
2021-04-20T14:51:01Z beach: I mean, what information will you use in order to give the user information about the elements seen in a window?
2021-04-20T14:51:14Z jmercouris: I will have to use Lisp itself to get that information
2021-04-20T14:51:17Z jmercouris: I don't see any other way
2021-04-20T14:51:34Z beach: And how will the IDE and the Common Lisp system communicate this information?
2021-04-20T14:51:35Z jmercouris: I could make a Lisp LSP, but... seems primitive
2021-04-20T14:51:48Z jmercouris: the IDE will be a Common Lisp system unto which the code is loaded
2021-04-20T14:51:54Z jmercouris: s/system/image
2021-04-20T14:51:57Z jmercouris: they will share the same image
2021-04-20T14:52:00Z beach: OK.
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2021-04-20T14:52:07Z beach: That's a good start.
2021-04-20T14:52:31Z jmercouris: do you have an interest in this topic specifically?
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2021-04-20T14:52:41Z jmercouris: I know you were working on Climacs in the past, but are you still interested?
2021-04-20T14:52:44Z beach: jmercouris: Yes, we have been planning an IDE for years.
2021-04-20T14:52:48Z jmercouris: I see
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2021-04-20T14:53:07Z jmercouris: what kinds of features did you imagine?
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2021-04-20T14:53:11Z jmercouris: are there any storyboards?
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2021-04-20T14:53:46Z beach: Second Climacs is very likely one (essential) part, but I also want a real debugger, an inspector (Clouseau is great), etc.
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2021-04-20T14:54:31Z jmercouris: I see
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2021-04-20T14:54:34Z jmercouris: have you taken a look at LEM?
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2021-04-20T14:55:03Z beach: Yes.  As I recall, it uses regular expressions for highlighting and indentation.
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2021-04-20T14:55:08Z beach: That's just not good enough.
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2021-04-20T14:55:21Z jmercouris: Yeah, that's the tip of the iceberg
2021-04-20T14:55:36Z jmercouris: there are a lot of other things in the codebase which are questionable
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2021-04-20T14:56:01Z jmercouris: anyways, the IDE in question is of course.. Nyxt
2021-04-20T14:56:10Z jmercouris: if we develop a common protocol, maybe we could reuse components
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2021-04-20T14:56:56Z beach: Oh, so what do you use for the GUI?  Webkit (is that what it is called?)?
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2021-04-20T14:57:20Z jmercouris: Yes, the GUI is a web view
2021-04-20T14:57:26Z jmercouris: it isn't necessarily WebKit
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2021-04-20T14:57:39Z beach: I see.
2021-04-20T14:58:01Z jmercouris: one thing I would like to do in the distant future is resurrect closure
2021-04-20T14:58:16Z beach: OK.
2021-04-20T14:58:19Z jmercouris: https://github.com/atlas-engineer/closure
2021-04-20T14:59:39Z beach: I know gilberth (the author) quite well.
2021-04-20T15:00:31Z jmercouris: I believe I have seen him on this IRC channel once
2021-04-20T15:00:43Z beach: Yes, he shows up from time to time.
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2021-04-20T15:02:43Z beach: jmercouris: This is how I see Common Lisp debugging: http://metamodular.com/SICL/sicl-debugging.pdf
2021-04-20T15:03:29Z jmercouris: beach: URL not found
2021-04-20T15:03:38Z jmercouris: hm, never mind
2021-04-20T15:03:42Z beach: ?
2021-04-20T15:03:44Z jmercouris: http/https mixmatch
2021-04-20T15:03:46Z jmercouris: the URL is valid
2021-04-20T15:04:00Z beach: jmercouris: As that paper shows, none of the FLOSS Common Lisp implementations can do anything like that.
2021-04-20T15:04:26Z MichaelRaskin: (actually, you can do this without implementation support with merely tens times of overhead)
2021-04-20T15:04:35Z beach: True.
2021-04-20T15:04:45Z jmercouris: beach: I'll have to read this later when I'm done with work
2021-04-20T15:04:46Z Alfr: jmercouris, he's usually in the cafe.
2021-04-20T15:04:46Z jmercouris: thanks
2021-04-20T15:04:51Z jmercouris: I see
2021-04-20T15:04:59Z jmercouris: He is a German right? I think I know him as well
2021-04-20T15:05:12Z beach: Definitely German.
2021-04-20T15:05:23Z jmercouris: I didn't make the connection in my head
2021-04-20T15:05:26Z jmercouris: I will have to ask him about closure
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2021-04-20T15:08:32Z beach: Here is a paper that explains how we plan to give feedback at typing speed to the user: http://metamodular.com/incremental-parsing.pdf
2021-04-20T15:10:20Z White_Flame: for some reason, I can't connect to metamodular.com either.  Keep getting SSL_ERROR_INTERNAL_ERROR_ALERT
2021-04-20T15:10:31Z jmercouris: You'll have to just use HTTP
2021-04-20T15:10:44Z beach: jmercouris: Are you planning to parse the entire buffer at every keystroke?
2021-04-20T15:10:57Z jmercouris: probably, yes
2021-04-20T15:11:07Z beach: And you think that will be fast enough?
2021-04-20T15:11:07Z jmercouris: very inefficient, but also very simple
2021-04-20T15:11:11Z jmercouris: no, I don't think so
2021-04-20T15:11:15Z beach: jmercouris: And how do you plan to handle incorrect or incomplete input?
2021-04-20T15:11:17Z jmercouris: I like to start from basics, and iterate
2021-04-20T15:11:24Z beach: I see.
2021-04-20T15:11:29Z jmercouris: I will probably simple not handle incorrect input at first
2021-04-20T15:11:36Z jmercouris: same with incomplete
2021-04-20T15:11:41Z jmercouris: s/simple/simply
2021-04-20T15:12:05Z beach: OK.  That's what we have spent a lot of time figuring out over the years.
2021-04-20T15:12:21Z jmercouris: It will be good to leverage your learnings!
2021-04-20T15:12:28Z beach: jmercouris: Also, do you plan to use READ to read the contents of the buffer?
2021-04-20T15:12:39Z jmercouris: No, I don't believe so
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2021-04-20T15:12:44Z jmercouris: the contents of the buffer will be known
2021-04-20T15:12:50Z jmercouris: I capture all keystrokes
2021-04-20T15:12:59Z jmercouris: no need to write to a buffer to read from it
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2021-04-20T15:13:17Z beach: But if you want to communicate with the Common Lisp system, how do you communicate code if it is not READ?
2021-04-20T15:13:24Z phoe: metamodular seems offline to me too
2021-04-20T15:13:37Z jmercouris: ah you mean CL read
2021-04-20T15:13:41Z jmercouris: yes, that I must do
2021-04-20T15:13:49Z jmercouris: I have a very primitive REPL implementation that I will build off of
2021-04-20T15:14:01Z beach: If so, how do you handle symbols with a package prefix indicating a non-existing package?
2021-04-20T15:14:06Z jmercouris: no idea :-)
2021-04-20T15:14:16Z jmercouris: it is just a little seed in my brain today
2021-04-20T15:14:43Z beach: I see.  Well, if you want to know how we plan to do it, then just let me know.
2021-04-20T15:14:53Z beach: Eclector is an essential part of that, of course.
2021-04-20T15:14:58Z jmercouris: I will let you know
2021-04-20T15:15:04Z jmercouris: I am afraid a lot of it will be over my head..
2021-04-20T15:15:27Z beach: It can't say there for very long if you want to create an IDE.
2021-04-20T15:16:26Z beach: jmercouris: But thanks.  I now have a much better idea of the state of your plans.
2021-04-20T15:16:29Z jmercouris: I've learned a lot in the past few years, I'm sure theres at least a couple of kb free disk in my head, hopefully I can understand
2021-04-20T15:16:32Z splittist: There are lots of approaches to an 'IDE' - a full Lisp Machine/Climacs++ experience is only one of them. There are very productive programmers who use vi (not even vim) and a repl in a terminal.
2021-04-20T15:16:55Z splittist: I'm not saying that's optimal for many people - but I don't see why diversity cannot be a strength (:
2021-04-20T15:17:09Z jmercouris: beach: no problem, as you can imagine, such a process takes many years... I was thinking about Nyxt for two years before I even wrote a single line of code
2021-04-20T15:17:14Z jmercouris: and it was C at first! I wrote a lisp interpreter!
2021-04-20T15:17:30Z beach: I understand.
2021-04-20T15:17:56Z jmercouris: in fact, you were the one who argued to me that it was not necessary to write it in C
2021-04-20T15:18:01Z jmercouris: I don't know if you remember that conversation
2021-04-20T15:18:07Z ldbeth: a minimalist's ide has only the repl
2021-04-20T15:18:15Z beach: jmercouris: Not really, but I can look it up.
2021-04-20T15:18:22Z jmercouris: it was a long long long time ago
2021-04-20T15:18:25Z beach: jmercouris: We discuss these things mostly in #sicl, for when you want to know more about our plans.
2021-04-20T15:18:31Z jmercouris: yes
2021-04-20T15:18:40Z beach: jmercouris: Sure, and I have problems remembering what I did last week. :)
2021-04-20T15:18:54Z jmercouris: ah, the benefits of old age!
2021-04-20T15:18:55Z ldbeth: not even vi because you can do structural editing and dump the sexps
2021-04-20T15:19:20Z beach: jmercouris: yeah, my bad memory started at the age of 15.
2021-04-20T15:20:01Z jmercouris: hm, that can be often triggered by bad experiences, not saying it /is/ in your case, but it can be
2021-04-20T15:20:09Z beach: That's when I had to get my first calendar, to remember what day and time to do what.
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2021-04-20T15:20:14Z saganman: Hello beach. How are you and how is the research going?
2021-04-20T15:21:10Z beach: saganman: Hello.  Fine thank you.  no-defun-allowed is going to do register allocation for me, and Gnuxie[m] might do the disassembler.  That frees up some time for me to do more research, more documentation, etc.
2021-04-20T15:21:15Z beach: saganman: How about you?
2021-04-20T15:22:07Z saganman: I am okay, currently in self imposed lockdown because of covid.
2021-04-20T15:22:15Z jmercouris: C O V I D
2021-04-20T15:22:25Z beach: saganman: India, right?
2021-04-20T15:22:44Z saganman: yeah beach, the situation is pretty bad here now.
2021-04-20T15:22:50Z beach: So I hear.
2021-04-20T15:23:01Z beach: Oh, and it might be time to get some external financial support so that I can pay some people to help me with SICL.
2021-04-20T15:23:13Z saganman: that's good
2021-04-20T15:23:33Z saganman: beach: you can hire lisp enthusiats
2021-04-20T15:23:40Z beach: But I am waiting for the Common Lisp foundation to create some infrastructure, so that we can avoid those vulture platforms.
2021-04-20T15:24:04Z beach: saganman: There are very few people who are both qualified and available.
2021-04-20T15:24:10Z jmercouris: beach: what are vulture platforms?
2021-04-20T15:24:34Z beach: jmercouris: The ones where you can post bounties and stuff.  They keep a significant part of the money.
2021-04-20T15:24:44Z jmercouris: oh I see, those
2021-04-20T15:24:47Z beach: jmercouris: And they change the rules after the fact.
2021-04-20T15:24:51Z jmercouris: any payment processor will charge you fees
2021-04-20T15:25:07Z jmercouris: you will probably be best served by setting up your own funding directly via Square, Stripe, or some bank
2021-04-20T15:25:11Z beach: I would rather the Common Lisp foundation keep some percentage.
2021-04-20T15:25:50Z saganman: I see
2021-04-20T15:25:51Z beach: jmercouris: I suppose that is possible.
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2021-04-20T15:26:22Z jmercouris: who would you solicit for external funding?
2021-04-20T15:26:46Z beach: I would start by asking here.  I haven't really thought much about that part.
2021-04-20T15:26:53Z jmercouris: that's the most important part
2021-04-20T15:27:06Z beach: We seem to manage to get regular contributions for McCLIM.
2021-04-20T15:27:15Z jmercouris: in the hundreds of thousands?
2021-04-20T15:27:34Z beach: I wouldn't know what to do with that much money.
2021-04-20T15:27:48Z jmercouris: I see
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2021-04-20T15:29:28Z beach: I think that 2k€ per month would be a very good start.  That's a decent salary in some eastern European countries, or a decent part time for a young person.
2021-04-20T15:29:56Z jmercouris: I see, so you would need about 2.5k per person/month to handle the other expenses
2021-04-20T15:30:03Z jmercouris: taxes, accounting, etc
2021-04-20T15:30:16Z beach: I suppose.
2021-04-20T15:30:18Z jmercouris: that's just 30k /year, seems easily doable
2021-04-20T15:30:27Z jmercouris: could you do that on a donation basis? I am doubtful
2021-04-20T15:30:43Z jmercouris: I would think you would need to get support from a governmental entity/research organization
2021-04-20T15:30:44Z beach: You may be right.  I guess I'll find out.
2021-04-20T15:31:19Z beach: jackdaniel: What monthly donations do we get for McCLIM?
2021-04-20T15:31:23Z jmercouris: If you want a gauge for how much money you could get, you can look at large open source projects, and see the ratio of people interested in a project/donating to a project
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2021-04-20T15:31:36Z jmercouris: you'll see that this number is a rather unfavorable ratio :'(
2021-04-20T15:31:48Z ldbeth: >> <beach> jmercouris: And how do you plan to handle incorrect or incomplete
2021-04-20T15:31:48Z ldbeth:         input? >> Probably a good direction is implementing "holes", as in https://hazel.org
2021-04-20T15:32:53Z Jachy: beach: If you go the donation route, have you considered applying for GitHub Sponsors? As far as I know there are no fees, but of course that being true for the indefinite future is at the discretion of Microsoft.
2021-04-20T15:33:40Z beach: Jachy: I have not considered that.  I might look into it.  Are you saying they give people money?
2021-04-20T15:34:15Z Jachy: beach: They did have some matching funds set up for a while, I don't know if they do that still. But the intent is for other github users or orgs to give people money.
2021-04-20T15:34:21Z beach: ldbeth: The current plan is to have Eclector handle it, as it is already able to do.
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2021-04-20T15:34:35Z beach: Jachy: Oh, I see.
2021-04-20T15:34:47Z phoe: gendl: ^
2021-04-20T15:34:56Z phoe: there's talk about donations, you might want to take a look at it
2021-04-20T15:35:01Z beach: Yes, this topic is for gendl.
2021-04-20T15:35:33Z beach: I believe jackdaniel is involved in a dialogue with the Common Lisp Foundation.
2021-04-20T15:35:48Z beach: ... for the McCLIM funding.
2021-04-20T15:36:23Z beach: McCLIM used one of those platforms, but it became clear that it wasn't a good solution.
2021-04-20T15:37:35Z Jachy: The most successful lisp programmer making use of it know of is fukamachi: https://github.com/sponsors/fukamachi
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2021-04-20T15:39:16Z beach: I see.
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2021-04-20T15:50:59Z gendl: The CLF fundraising apparatus can disburse payments thru a beneficiary’s GitHub sponsors page, if one exists, to trigger any doubling or uplift which may be in effect.
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2021-04-20T15:51:28Z gendl: We have done that for Faré for asdf, for example.
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2021-04-20T15:51:54Z gendl: beach: phoe: following up the the above.
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2021-04-20T16:14:18Z beach: gendl: Great!  So is the infrastructure in place for accepting funding and for paying for work?
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2021-04-20T16:15:52Z beach: gendl: I would be interested in asking people to contribute to some account specifically for SICL development, and then for people who do some work to get paid from that account.
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2021-04-20T16:16:24Z beach: gendl: And it would be fine with me for the foundation to keep a percentage for the service.
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2021-04-20T16:29:51Z beach might have misunderstood what jackdaniel and the CLF discussed about McCLIM. 
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2021-04-20T16:34:03Z gendl: beach: we have core infrastructure for accepting payments. It still needs some polishing. Preview here:
2021-04-20T16:34:41Z gendl: https://payments.common-lisp.net:9443
2021-04-20T16:35:41Z gendl: We do not have infrastructure for monitoring nor enforcing work or results
2021-04-20T16:37:00Z gendl: CLF has a general directive to retain 10% of any inflows, after paying overhead expenses and disbursements.
2021-04-20T16:39:08Z gendl: This is done in order to ensure the Foundation (a volunteer organization) always runs "in the black," and so that we might in due course build up an investment fund which can be applied to tracked investments.
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2021-04-20T16:41:06Z gendl: I'm open for volunteers to help with polishing the the payment acceptance infrastructure.
2021-04-20T16:41:54Z gendl: ball's in my court on that to some extent to make a proper README.md and CONTRIBUTING.md for the project.
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2021-04-20T17:15:21Z nij: Hello! Is there any de facto package that collects modern data structures like tries or rings?
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2021-04-20T17:18:41Z nij: And for such data structures, if I want to define them by my own, does it make sense to use CLOS? I'm afraid that it's a over-kill and might compromise efficiency.
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2021-04-20T17:22:38Z phoe: nij: vellum
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2021-04-20T17:22:51Z phoe: https://github.com/sirherrbatka/vellum
2021-04-20T17:23:14Z phoe: Xach: I see it's still not in quicklisp; is there anything needed for https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/issues/2008 ?
2021-04-20T17:23:28Z phoe: oh wait, not vellum; it's shka_'s other library
2021-04-20T17:23:34Z phoe: https://github.com/sirherrbatka/cl-data-structures
2021-04-20T17:25:03Z Xach: Hmm, I don't know what happened there
2021-04-20T17:25:11Z phoe: gasp
2021-04-20T17:25:14Z Xach: i will review
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2021-04-20T17:27:37Z nij: Hmm it doesn't release with versions. phoe how did you decide which commit to use?
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2021-04-20T17:29:28Z phoe: nij: I use whatever quicklisp serves
2021-04-20T17:30:38Z nij: I see. That's a good rule of thumbs.
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2021-04-20T17:58:25Z beach: gendl: Sounds perfect!  Thanks!
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2021-04-20T18:13:34Z jackdaniel: beach: currently none because the bountysource account is suspended. before that we had recurring donation around $300 / month
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2021-04-20T18:14:05Z jackdaniel: and regarding the rest, gendl is putting hard work to get us platform on cl.net
2021-04-20T18:15:26Z lukego: gendl: that's awesome that you're doing this!
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2021-04-20T18:17:44Z jackdaniel: it is
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2021-04-20T18:19:16Z lukego: gendl: re "enforcing work and results" that's potentially more trouble than it's worth. I believe in a lot of EU countries you're allowed to receive tax-free gifts from foundations like this - great - but if you have a deliverable then it would be classified as work and ~half will disappear in taxes. I'm sure it varies a lot between countries but I've heard this about Germany at least.
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2021-04-20T18:20:12Z lukego: (someone asked their accountant if the grant would be taxed, they said no it's an exempt gift, great, then they changed their mind when they saw the receipt and said nah that's contract work)
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2021-04-20T18:21:44Z jackdaniel: clf in past campaigns ran appreciation fundraisers and that's imo a very fine approach
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2021-04-20T18:22:42Z lukego: yeah I'd be more inclined to give for one of those. also because it's nice to recognize good work that people have done while sometimes sponsored work ends up heaping obligations on people for below-market compensation and is a bad like a badly paid job.
2021-04-20T18:23:32Z lukego: also great if it's done in such a way that a company can make a contribution and get an invoice that can be expensed e.g. get their name put on a website somewhere so it's a sponsorship/marketing/advertising expense.
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2021-04-20T18:23:56Z lukego: (sorry of this is veering off topic but that's all I have to say anyway :))
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2021-04-20T18:23:58Z jackdaniel: with McCLIM when I've set the fundraiser I've declared that money will go to sponsor part of my time to work (and part on bounties, but bounties didn't pan out as well as I have expected them)
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2021-04-20T18:25:18Z jackdaniel: and that money didn't run out yet; also all I had to say ,)
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2021-04-20T18:54:28Z CL-ASHOK: fellow lisp geniuses
2021-04-20T18:55:00Z CL-ASHOK: How do I re-write the below that it doesn't give me an error "port already in use" every time I re-load the file?
2021-04-20T18:55:02Z CL-ASHOK: (setf web-server
2021-04-20T18:55:03Z CL-ASHOK:    (hunchentoot:start
2021-04-20T18:55:03Z CL-ASHOK:       (make-instance 'hunchentoot:easy-acceptor
2021-04-20T18:55:04Z CL-ASHOK: :address "127.0.0.1"
2021-04-20T18:55:04Z CL-ASHOK: :port 4242
2021-04-20T18:55:05Z CL-ASHOK: :document-root #p"www_/"
2021-04-20T18:55:05Z CL-ASHOK: :persistent-connections-p t
2021-04-20T18:55:06Z CL-ASHOK: :read-timeout 3.0
2021-04-20T18:55:06Z CL-ASHOK: :write-timeout 3.0
2021-04-20T18:55:07Z CL-ASHOK: :access-log-destination nil
2021-04-20T18:55:07Z CL-ASHOK: :message-log-destination nil)))
2021-04-20T18:56:48Z jackdaniel: CL-ASHOK: (defvar *web-server* (setf web-server …))
2021-04-20T18:57:12Z phoe: CL-ASHOK: call hunchentoot:stop
2021-04-20T18:57:36Z phoe: oh wait! yes, what jackdaniel said, use DEFVAR; this way the hunchentoot:start form it will only be evaluated once
2021-04-20T18:57:39Z phoe: s/it//
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2021-04-20T19:02:02Z CL-ASHOK: Wow - thanks! So easy
2021-04-20T19:02:12Z CL-ASHOK: You guys are too good ;)
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2021-04-20T19:13:52Z jackdaniel: of course, that's why we're confined on this channel
2021-04-20T19:13:57Z jackdaniel: we are cybernetical beings in prison
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2021-04-20T19:15:08Z CL-ASHOK: @jackdaniel :D
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2021-04-20T21:09:47Z nij: Hello! IIRC, ambrevar's sly main shell isn't released back then. Any news on that? I cannot wait but putting my hands on the goodies described in the wonderful article: https://ambrevar.xyz/lisp-repl-shell/index.html
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2021-04-21T03:02:20Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-04-21T03:07:09Z remby: morning!
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2021-04-21T03:56:34Z refusenick: I have someone asking me to make them a website (a homepage/blog), and I'd like to give Lisp a shot (instead of LAMP)
2021-04-21T03:57:19Z beach: Good idea.
2021-04-21T03:57:27Z refusenick: It's going to be atop a VPS (probably a DigitalOcean droplet), and they'd like to be able to edit the content (blog posts, CV updates) in a GUI format, as if it were Wordpress
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2021-04-21T04:00:27Z refusenick: There was a "Lisp apps on GCE" Medium post which made it to the top of HN a few days ago, and which looks like a decent starting point (although, with limited RAM and storage, I'd like to ideally drop Nginx and PostgresSQL to instead do everything inside the Lisp image)
2021-04-21T04:01:56Z refusenick: They're using Windows, I'm using Linux. What's a cross-platform way to get them a graphical rich text editor which can connect to and live update the running Lisp image in a relatively secure fashion?
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2021-04-21T04:06:26Z refusenick: Could I serve them an in-browser rich text editor (Lisp running via Wasm) which opens a Swank connection to the server when they log in?
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2021-04-21T04:07:48Z refusenick: Parenscript would probably be a better bet?
2021-04-21T04:07:50Z no-defun-allowed: The first part is to get Lisp on WASM.
2021-04-21T04:08:16Z refusenick: no-defun-allowed: Does it still have stack manipulation issues?
2021-04-21T04:08:47Z refusenick: Wasn't it multiple return which proved problematic?
2021-04-21T04:08:47Z no-defun-allowed: Not sure, but you also have to deal with garbage collection and non-local transfer of control.
2021-04-21T04:09:18Z no-defun-allowed: Though you could do Parenscript now, sure.
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2021-04-21T04:12:58Z refusenick: I imagine it'd be easier to make them a desktop app?
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2021-04-21T04:13:15Z refusenick: What GUI framework works best? McClim?
2021-04-21T04:16:37Z refusenick: Maybe give them Markdown and a preview button?
2021-04-21T04:16:56Z refusenick: Replicating Word or Wordpress would be hard
2021-04-21T04:25:42Z remby: Word or Wordpress? those seem different
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2021-04-21T04:30:48Z moon-child: presumably both provide wysiwyg rich text editors
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2021-04-21T04:33:08Z remby: oh I see
2021-04-21T04:34:11Z remby: I think a basic "rich text" editor would not be bad that's pretty much just images, bold, italics, bullet points and centering
2021-04-21T04:34:19Z remby: could do it with html :P
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2021-04-21T04:54:36Z splittist: refusenick: isn't the normal way just embedding a standard js editor widget (TinyMCE, whatever) in the page and handling the AJAX (or whatever the kool kids do now) in the lisp webserver to update the model?
2021-04-21T04:57:02Z refusenick: splittist: I'm not much of a web programmer, like, at all
2021-04-21T04:57:21Z refusenick: I guess that makes sense.
2021-04-21T04:57:29Z splittist: You could have a look at https://github.com/Shirakumo/reader
2021-04-21T04:58:26Z refusenick: splittist: Oh, this sounds great! thanks
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2021-04-21T05:29:40Z splittist: refusenick: and in case you haven't found it, this is a sort of accompanying tutorial https://github.com/Shirakumo/radiance-tutorial/blob/master/Part%200.md
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2021-04-21T05:31:11Z splittist: refusenick: in particular, Part 6 integrates CodeMirror, a web editor thingy
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2021-04-21T06:05:31Z raeda: What's the motivation for having APPLY unpack the last item in the rest list?
2021-04-21T06:06:28Z jackdaniel: raeda: to complement funcall which doesn't do that
2021-04-21T06:06:55Z jackdaniel: i.e you may want to add some new arguments to existing list
2021-04-21T06:07:10Z jackdaniel: (apply 'make-pane :frame fm (list* :port port args))
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2021-04-21T06:07:27Z jackdaniel: well, that wasn't a good example because you could lift the port argument out of the last argument
2021-04-21T06:08:07Z jackdaniel: but, say (progn (remf args :foo) (apply 'make-pane :frame fm args))
2021-04-21T06:08:27Z raeda: That's neat. So you could do some Currying by adding arguments to the front of the arg list
2021-04-21T06:08:37Z jackdaniel: yes, that's one of its uses
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2021-04-21T06:09:33Z moon-child: I have the opposite question: why is cons not variadic?
2021-04-21T06:09:44Z moon-child: with e.g. (cons a b c d) ←→ (cons a (cons b (cons c d)))
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2021-04-21T06:10:02Z jackdaniel: moon-child: because list* serves this purpose
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2021-04-21T06:10:34Z jackdaniel: cons is a constructor for a type cons
2021-04-21T06:11:08Z jackdaniel: list* is used to construct lists as you have described (i.e improper lists)
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2021-04-21T06:17:02Z refusenick: Well, this is a little embarrasing...
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2021-04-21T06:17:12Z refusenick: I tried launching Sly for the first time in a while
2021-04-21T06:17:20Z daphnis: is there a way to find the number of arguments desired by a given function?
2021-04-21T06:17:23Z refusenick: And it no longer works
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2021-04-21T06:18:04Z refusenick: Apparently, Slynk no longer compiles due to the removal of %SIMPLE-FUN-NEXT from sb-kernel
2021-04-21T06:18:06Z jackdaniel: daphnis: there is no way guaranteed by the standard
2021-04-21T06:18:11Z jackdaniel: but you may try (swank::arglist #'list)
2021-04-21T06:18:23Z jackdaniel: there is also library, I think trivial-arguments or trivial-argument-list
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2021-04-21T06:18:41Z jackdaniel: refusenick: maybe sly also updated?
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2021-04-21T06:19:01Z jackdaniel: to match sbcl shifting its internal structures
2021-04-21T06:19:07Z daphnis: jackdaniel: thanks!
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2021-04-21T06:19:16Z jackdaniel: sure ,)
2021-04-21T06:20:00Z jackdaniel: mind that if you do silly things, like setting (debug 0) then possibly you won't be able to see the arglist
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2021-04-21T06:20:57Z refusenick: Ah, yep
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2021-04-21T06:21:55Z refusenick: I thought I had things set so C-x C-e on (use-package sly ...) would pull and rebuild it if the HEAD tag was outdated
2021-04-21T06:22:01Z refusenick: but clearly I was wrong!
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2021-04-21T07:00:50Z thomasb06: jackdaniel how was your beer?
2021-04-21T07:05:28Z jackdaniel: as good as usual, thanks
2021-04-21T07:05:42Z thomasb06: (hehe)
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2021-04-21T07:33:36Z thomasb06: jackdaniel how did you learn Lisp? Lately, I'm trying to learn some
2021-04-21T07:35:11Z jackdaniel: it is not a very interesting story. I've started a scientific club at my uni around the artificial intelligence and I've found that Lisp is a all the jazz for AI (quite outdated information even then)
2021-04-21T07:35:30Z jackdaniel: so I've made a "course" at our meetings based on pcl
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2021-04-21T07:36:07Z jackdaniel: then in my first job I was working with embedded systems and I was using ecl, so I took its maintainership since it wasn't maintained
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2021-04-21T07:37:21Z jackdaniel: after that I've achieved nirvana and I'm beyond ego, one with the true nature of lisp, floating above the sky surrounded by the singing parenthesis
2021-04-21T07:37:45Z thomasb06: ok, you're a professional then. It's from Emacs I discovered Lisp and trying to go a bit further
2021-04-21T07:38:27Z thomasb06: not sure it would have a professional outcome
2021-04-21T07:39:29Z thomasb06: there's a window manager in Lisp that looks nice, Ulubis. But it doesn't handle Nvidia cards, maybe I could have a look
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2021-04-21T07:40:05Z jackdaniel: if you make money from it you are a professional, if you don't then you are not (I think that's the distinction); it has little to do with skill
2021-04-21T07:40:44Z moon-child: why does a window manager care what GPU you run?
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2021-04-21T07:41:08Z MichaelRaskin: Because Wayland
2021-04-21T07:41:16Z moon-child: jackdaniel: surely it requires a certain degree of skill in a field that you're worth being paid to perform it?
2021-04-21T07:41:22Z thomasb06: exactly
2021-04-21T07:41:42Z MichaelRaskin: I would expect it to run fine with Nouveau driver, though
2021-04-21T07:41:48Z thomasb06: (exactly: Wayland)
2021-04-21T07:42:04Z jackdaniel: moon-child: I know a few professionals (not necessarily related to lisp) who learned to type code and stopped at that
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2021-04-21T07:42:40Z jackdaniel: and there are a lot of amateour programmers with very deep knowledge; so that's it. but this is offtopic I think
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2021-04-21T07:43:12Z thomasb06: MichaelRaskin next week-end I'll retry but few weeks ago, the wm crashed at startup. And my driver is nouveau
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2021-04-21T07:44:12Z thomasb06: jackdaniel an amateur skilled programmer, that would be great already
2021-04-21T07:44:32Z MichaelRaskin: Hm, unfortunate, thanks for the information
2021-04-21T07:44:45Z jackdaniel: as I said, these qualities are orthogonal. of course it is nice to be paid when you are skillful at something
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2021-04-21T07:45:26Z thomasb06: MichaelRaskin the author answered on GitHub apparently it comes the fact Nvidia doesn't comply to Gdm or a name like that
2021-04-21T07:45:45Z MichaelRaskin: GBM, I would expect
2021-04-21T07:46:08Z thomasb06: most probably... Something to do with graphics cards
2021-04-21T07:46:25Z MichaelRaskin: But I thought it was more of a problem with their proptietary driver and Nouveau was at least a bit closer to the rest of the ecosystem
2021-04-21T07:47:03Z thomasb06: here: https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=NVIDIA-GBM-Mesa-Backend-Alt
2021-04-21T07:47:50Z thomasb06: my graphics card is 14 years old so it surely doesn't help
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2021-04-21T08:01:48Z phoe: I think nvidia has strayed far from the #lisp topic
2021-04-21T08:01:55Z phoe gently opens the #lispcafe door
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2021-04-21T08:05:42Z thomasb06: phoe: HEY PHOE, ARE YOU DOING? IT'S SOMETIME I DIDN'T SEE YOU IN OUR FINE #LISPPUB. WANT A DRINK?
2021-04-21T08:06:26Z phoe: thomasb06: sure, but in #lispcafe :D
2021-04-21T08:06:47Z thomasb06: ;p
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2021-04-21T09:44:51Z nij: I understand MOP as an extension of CLOS. However, what would be on top of MOP that extends MOP again? (Or it's not needed, yet?)
2021-04-21T09:45:19Z jackdaniel: mop is not an extension of clos, mop is a generalization of clos
2021-04-21T09:45:29Z jackdaniel: that allows you to write clos-like object oriented systems
2021-04-21T09:45:51Z jackdaniel: (in other words, it is a machinery to write clos extensions)
2021-04-21T09:46:14Z nij: Oh.. that's a better term. Thanks jackdaniel.
2021-04-21T09:46:53Z no-defun-allowed: If we are to talk about CLOS and the MOP as separate, I would say that MOP is used to implement CLOS, but you use CLOS stuff (classes, methods) to implement new object systems with the MOP.
2021-04-21T09:48:27Z nij is confused.
2021-04-21T09:48:36Z nij: MOP is used to implement CLOS.
2021-04-21T09:48:48Z nij: What is used to implement MOP? Is it CLOS?
2021-04-21T09:50:06Z no-defun-allowed: The introductory half of the Art of the Metaobject Protocol (the book which introduced the MOP, as I understand it) introduces it as a CLOS program. But implementation strategies can vary.
2021-04-21T09:51:19Z nij gasps.
2021-04-21T09:52:04Z nij: So CLOS is full enough to describe its "meta", which can be in turn used to define CLOS itself?
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2021-04-21T09:52:43Z no-defun-allowed: The authors present Closette, which builds up from structure classes (see <https://github.com/binghe/closette/> which sadly does not seem to include the "Closette is a Knights of the Lambda Calculus production." announcement upon loading).
2021-04-21T09:54:03Z nij: I sense a circularity between CLOS and MOP.. did I miss something?
2021-04-21T09:54:04Z no-defun-allowed: SICL bootstrapping instead uses multiple environments to gradually step from the host object representation to its own object representation, and that uses the meta-object protocol to my knowledge. But I don't have a good answer for what CLOS alone can do.
2021-04-21T09:54:54Z no-defun-allowed: The first half of the book guides you through implementing the MOP and CLOS in CLOS alone.
2021-04-21T09:54:56Z jackdaniel: the 'usual' implementaiton strategy is to provide stubs that are normal functions and object prototypes and then gradually replace them
2021-04-21T09:55:25Z nij: :-O
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2021-04-21T09:55:58Z no-defun-allowed: But recall that you can bootstrap from DEFSTRUCT as you please, and you can create DEFSTRUCT with lists, and lists with closures, so on and so forth.
2021-04-21T09:57:38Z nij: Lists can be also defined with cons. :-O
2021-04-21T09:58:17Z no-defun-allowed: But yes, a CLOS implementation supporting the MOP builds CLOS from the MOP, but also MOP from CLOS.
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2021-04-21T10:00:41Z nij: :-D I'm delighted.
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2021-04-21T10:11:59Z nij: If I have a function #'f, defined by (defun f (x) (g x)), that calls another function #'g, which could possibly call other functions and the environment, can I ask lisp to return a "closure" of f for me?
2021-04-21T10:12:39Z nij: So the returned object should remember everything that's linked to f, and should be able to reproduce #'f at the moment I ask for the closure.
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2021-04-21T10:18:47Z nij: no-defun-allowed: Oh indeed, in TAOTMP.. it says "The heart of the matter is that the introduction of metaobject protocols makes CLOS
2021-04-21T10:18:47Z nij: into a procedurally reflective language [Smith 84]..". There is a metacircular issue there. And CLOS is in some sense full itself (i.e. it can be used to define MOP).
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2021-04-21T10:20:21Z nij: It's pretty similar to when mathematicians want to define a set, but they use sets to define models, which are in turn used to justify if a class is a set.
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2021-04-21T11:10:31Z heisig: The preliminary programme for this year's ELS just went online: https://european-lisp-symposium.org/2021/index.html
2021-04-21T11:12:44Z heisig: The schedule is not yet final, but I hope it is still interesting.  In particular, it reveals what our keynote speakers will present.
2021-04-21T11:13:09Z jackdaniel: heisig: thanks!
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2021-04-21T11:22:15Z luis: heisig: cool stuff
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2021-04-21T11:24:34Z nij: thanks <3 heisig
2021-04-21T11:24:34Z nij:  
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2021-04-21T11:29:40Z beach: heisig: Looks great so far!
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2021-04-21T11:35:10Z flip214: If it's a virtual event, aren't all talks (potential) keynotes? Just depends in which order they're listened to (by each individual participant), right?
2021-04-21T11:35:59Z jackdaniel: I think that a keynote sticker is meant to signify the talk as "highlighted"
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2021-04-21T11:38:52Z heisig: flip214: The main difference is that keynote speakers are invited, while other speakers have to submit a high-quality paper to be allowed to present.
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2021-04-21T11:39:34Z heisig: Of course we try to invite very interesting people, so there is a good chance that these talks will be highlights of the symposium.
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2021-04-21T11:48:25Z jcowan: In addition, keynotes tend to be ephemeral, unless someone transcribes them.  If you miss a talk you can read the paper; if you miss a keynote you are SOL.
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2021-04-21T12:23:35Z thomasb06: the super league raw is over?
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2021-04-21T12:51:53Z splittist: heisig: 'Cyber' or 'Cyper' in Keynote 3?
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2021-04-21T13:20:20Z MrtnDk[m]: What is Cyper, splittist ?
2021-04-21T13:20:32Z flip214: a typo, I guess
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2021-04-21T13:47:18Z splittist: yes (or 'typos')
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2021-04-21T13:50:36Z flip214: (or T '|splittist|:|typos|)
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2021-04-21T14:38:04Z Josh_2: Stupid question time. How do I get the directories within a directory?
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2021-04-21T14:40:55Z Xach: Josh_2: one way is to list everything and consider everything without a pathname-name and pathname-type to be a directory. but it is not foolproof.
2021-04-21T14:42:14Z Josh_2: so not trivial then
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2021-04-21T14:43:32Z Josh_2: I think I will try pathname-utils
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2021-04-21T14:52:18Z Josh_2: Turns out it was trivial, uiop:subdirectories
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2021-04-21T14:58:54Z nature: I've been drawn to lisp those past few weeks and I started reading PCL but he advised to use emacs and SLIME for the "true" lisp experience, does SLIMV bring the same experience or is it inferior?
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2021-04-21T15:00:03Z nature: I really can't use emacs (I don't even know how to close it, to give you an idea of my emacs proficiency) but I am a heavy vi user, hence me asking about SLIMV
2021-04-21T15:01:56Z beach: nature: I believe most people here use Emacs+SLIME, but if you are patient, I am sure some SLIMV user will answer you.
2021-04-21T15:02:07Z MichaelRaskin: … or vlime users
2021-04-21T15:02:16Z beach: Or that.
2021-04-21T15:02:27Z jcowan: or slvme users.  :-)
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2021-04-21T15:02:50Z nature: haha ok thanks, yeah I am in no rush :D
2021-04-21T15:03:22Z nature: Also on a more generic note, a question only experience can answer, how maintainable is CL?
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2021-04-21T15:04:38Z nature: I've read quite a bit about the fact that running decades old code is a breeze, it seems too good to be true for someone how wan't even able to build a node project that was unmaintained for 6 months...
2021-04-21T15:04:39Z beach: nature: You mean code written in Common Lisp?  That depends a lot on the experience of the person who wrote it.
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2021-04-21T15:05:00Z MichaelRaskin: Much less churn caused by upstream updates, which is great.
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2021-04-21T15:05:52Z nature: Yes Common Lisp, so if I start writing lisp tomorrow my code will probably be a sore to the eye right?
2021-04-21T15:05:56Z beach: nature: Right, it won't stop working for no particular reason.  But whether it can be improved or extended depends on the way it was written in the first place.  But that's no different from other languages.
2021-04-21T15:06:31Z beach: nature: Oh, yes! :)  And you will notice it yourself next year if you look back on it.
2021-04-21T15:06:43Z beach: nature: But we can help you out to make it more idiomatic.
2021-04-21T15:07:16Z nature: :)
2021-04-21T15:07:59Z Odin-: I think it's relevant here that Common Lisp was originally defined with the explicit intent of making sure existing code in various related but different Lisp implementations could run with the minimum of alterations.
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2021-04-21T15:08:21Z MichaelRaskin: … and of course, if the goal is for the code to be maintainable by _you_, you should not only think in terms of idiomatic, but in terms «how to make the logic of the code compatible with _my_ thinking about the problem in a year?»
2021-04-21T15:09:25Z beach: Right, I assumed that "maintainable" meant that other people could get involved.
2021-04-21T15:09:42Z Odin-: That makes for features that sharply lessen the risk of 'legacy code' being impossible to run, which is somewhat distinct from how maintainable said code is...
2021-04-21T15:09:43Z beach: ... and that assumption could be wrong of course.
2021-04-21T15:10:11Z nature: That's so interesting, I recently read about the importance of "authenticity" in software programming, it seems to be quite the thing in Lisp.
2021-04-21T15:10:35Z beach: nature: What does the term mean?
2021-04-21T15:11:00Z MichaelRaskin: Also the situation of other people getting involved by working tightly together with you on the code is different from other people having to maintain it, hm, reverse-cold-turkey
2021-04-21T15:11:46Z nature: beach: Looking into Lisp for hobby programming :)
2021-04-21T15:12:33Z easye: nature: "authenticity"?  Link?                                  [17:12]
2021-04-21T15:12:38Z MichaelRaskin: (… and the situation beach optimises for is more or less sudden immersion into the code by a different experienced Common Lisp programmer who is actually Common Lisp-first programmer — which is unlikely to ever happen in practice unless you are at Ravenpack or so)
2021-04-21T15:13:01Z nature: beach: Authenticity: n.The quality or condition of being authentic, trustworthy, or genuine.
2021-04-21T15:13:19Z easye: MichaelRaskin: heh, there seems to be a number of companies other than RavenPack doing CL now.  HRL is interesting.
2021-04-21T15:13:23Z Odin-: nature: That's just moving the question. :p
2021-04-21T15:13:49Z easye: nature: yeah, technical foul.
2021-04-21T15:14:02Z beach: nature: Here is a thing, though, to put what MichaelRaskin said into some perspective.  What often happens here is that some newbie decides that nobody else will have to look at the code.
2021-04-21T15:14:03Z beach: But then, that newbie has a problem and submits the code for #lisp participants to read.  Then, the first thing that happens is that the newbie is told that the code is incomprehensible to Common Lisp programmers, and it needs to be improved before help can be had.
2021-04-21T15:14:53Z nature: hahaha, I guess it's basically like someone who crafts furniture, he can be authentic or not, I mean it's hard to explain ^^'
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2021-04-21T15:15:15Z beach: nature: I think I know the usual English meaning of the term.  I just couldn't figure out what it meant in the context of programming.
2021-04-21T15:15:28Z MichaelRaskin: Hm yeah, HRL might be large enough
2021-04-21T15:15:42Z easye: nature: I thought you were referring to some specific piece of text wrt. authenticity in programming.  It's an interesting precis; I'd like to see the exposition.
2021-04-21T15:15:54Z beach: Me too.
2021-04-21T15:16:10Z Odin-: nature: Well, I don't think there's any programming language community that values inauthenticity in any sense; it's probably more a question of what is meant by 'being authentic' in each.
2021-04-21T15:16:13Z easye: HRL is where stylewarning ended up methinks.  Another quilc/qvm group!
2021-04-21T15:17:07Z nature: Basically it was on some imageboard someone asked about the purpose (philosophical) of programming and someone made a lengthy answer about the importance of authenticity, I found it really inspiring
2021-04-21T15:17:48Z MichaelRaskin: Odin-: I would expect some subset of Java community to value inauthencity…
2021-04-21T15:18:10Z easye: MichaelRaskin: Oh, come on.  Leave the poor Java people alone.
2021-04-21T15:18:18Z easye: At least they are evolving.
2021-04-21T15:18:19Z nature: I think Golang is also quite like that
2021-04-21T15:18:23Z easye: ;)
2021-04-21T15:18:25Z Odin-: MichaelRaskin: See, while I genuinely thought of making that joke, I don't think it's really representative of reality. :p
2021-04-21T15:19:13Z MichaelRaskin: Odin-: well, communication messed-up beyond any repair does happen in some areas of enterprise
2021-04-21T15:19:31Z easye: At least there is abcl for a given Java programmer to pull herself into the light of the lambda...
2021-04-21T15:19:37Z beach: MUBAR
2021-04-21T15:20:05Z beach: We could use it as a new metasyntactic variable.
2021-04-21T15:20:07Z Odin-: MichaelRaskin: No question about it. I just don't think that's specific to a programming language, or even programming. :p
2021-04-21T15:20:18Z MichaelRaskin: easye: what about the light of being not prohibited to communicate with anyone having at least third-hand experience with the actual problem being solved?
2021-04-21T15:21:08Z jcowan: IMO the claim that code is incomprehensible is not actually correct: it's more like "it's not quite what we expect, so we aren't going to bother with it."
2021-04-21T15:21:08Z MichaelRaskin: Odin-: I would expect Java to have better tooling ecosystem than most alternatives for shipping something that can at least pretend to work.
2021-04-21T15:21:25Z easye: MichaelRaskin: I'd argue that's a "community" problem.
2021-04-21T15:21:51Z easye: Now, all languages are sorta defined by how they are used and evolved by a community.
2021-04-21T15:21:56Z Odin-: jcowan: Most claims of incomprehensibility go like that, in any domain. Most things aren't encrypted.
2021-04-21T15:22:05Z beach: jcowan: Right, or rather "it is going to take more time for me to understand it than I am willing to spend on it".
2021-04-21T15:22:37Z jcowan: Most "bad code" isn't even obfuscated particularly, more like unidiomatic.
2021-04-21T15:22:41Z easye: What's unique to Java, is that it was the first world-historical language to have a community with magnitudes greater of user connected via the interwebs.
2021-04-21T15:22:54Z easye: JavaScript has sorta taken over that role in the last decade.
2021-04-21T15:23:27Z easye: err "world-historical programming language"
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2021-04-21T15:24:37Z easye: And that "magnitudes-greater" community necessarily has a lot of members who "just don't know better".
2021-04-21T15:24:53Z Odin-: easye: Dunno, I can think of at least two earlier programming languages with a seriously bad rap that were both also designed with an intent to broaden the user base for programming.
2021-04-21T15:25:44Z Odin-: (COBOL and BASIC.)
2021-04-21T15:25:44Z jcowan: Some very old Lisp code is a direct translation from punch cards, which means it typically has only necessary spaces and is wrapped every 72 characters, creating a wall of text.  *That* is obfuscated.
2021-04-21T15:26:01Z easye: Odin-: but--I would argue not knowing which ones you are referring to--those languages didn't have 100x as many people "learning/using" as Java in the 2000s
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2021-04-21T15:26:59Z jcowan: The idea with Cobol was that managers could read it even if they couldn't write it.
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2021-04-21T15:27:03Z easye: And able to share and experiment via the intertubes.  There is easily 10x as many choices for a given library in Java in anything else other than JavaScript.
2021-04-21T15:27:12Z jcowan: So it was both code and pseudo-codw.
2021-04-21T15:27:51Z Odin-: easye: Hm. Good point, though I suspect that the ratio of people just picking up programming vs. experienced programmers was stupid high for Basic in the eighties, even in the code that got published in books and magazines.
2021-04-21T15:27:55Z jcowan: easye: Of which between 9 and 10 are unusable.
2021-04-21T15:28:18Z easye read _Compute's Gazette_.  And typed in a lot of those programs.
2021-04-21T15:28:35Z Odin-: easye: Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say the issue doesn't exist for Java.
2021-04-21T15:29:05Z Odin-: But I think there were previous examples, and definitely later ones.
2021-04-21T15:29:08Z jcowan: I can't be quantitative, but I think Perl and Python have large libraries too.
2021-04-21T15:29:09Z Odin-: Python also springs to mind.
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2021-04-21T15:29:49Z easye is kinda ignoring MSFT tooling in his argument.  There are a lot of Excel macros with VisualBasic powering trading models...
2021-04-21T15:30:02Z Odin-: Perl is another one of those programming languages explicitly designed for use by non-programmers, actually...
2021-04-21T15:30:18Z jcowan: Yes, spreadsheets have a bug density that would make us feel sick if we actually looked at the code.
2021-04-21T15:30:41Z cranium_: re perl: you mean because it's more of a sysadmin thing or...?
2021-04-21T15:30:48Z easye: jcowan: Odin-: I'd have to crunch some stats, but I subjectively find there to be many more choices for a given Java library than Python or Perl.
2021-04-21T15:31:10Z Odin-: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yb2zkxHDfUE
2021-04-21T15:31:10Z easye: CPAN/setuptools have tended to homogenize solutions.
2021-04-21T15:31:19Z cranium_: as in many more libraries to do a certain thing?
2021-04-21T15:31:40Z easye: cranium_: yeah.
2021-04-21T15:31:41Z Odin-: cranium_: Well, because it was specifically designed to be useful for sysadmins, yes.
2021-04-21T15:31:56Z easye: Like look at how many ways there are to deal with JSON in Java vs. another lanauge.
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2021-04-21T15:32:44Z jcowan: As I said, having many libs to do something doesn't tell you which ones are usable
2021-04-21T15:33:10Z easye: jcowan: no argument there.  I'm arguing for something like a sociology of programming languages.
2021-04-21T15:33:21Z jcowan: Perl is a language for programmers with a linguistic background.  Fortunately for me, I am one of them.
2021-04-21T15:33:27Z easye: Or an anthropology if you are feeling unking.
2021-04-21T15:33:28Z cranium_: Odin-, I asked because sysadmins are not necessarily the people that spring to mind when we talk about "languages for non-programmers".
2021-04-21T15:33:32Z easye: s/unking/unkind/
2021-04-21T15:33:37Z nick3000: Hey I am a CL noob, day to day I do C++. Is there any system for user-defined type coercion? I see a coerce function documented, but it doesn't seem overloadable.
2021-04-21T15:33:51Z jcowan: why unkind?   "Sociology is anthropology done on Westerners."
2021-04-21T15:33:58Z easye: jcowan: heh.
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2021-04-21T15:34:03Z easye: Very true.
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2021-04-21T15:35:01Z easye: I'd argue that Java was more "global" then any previous language.
2021-04-21T15:35:17Z Bike: nick3000: it is not overloadable. since lisp doesn't have implicit coercions, it makes more sense to just define coercion functions when they are needed
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2021-04-21T15:35:26Z Bike: well, mostly doesn't have
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2021-04-21T15:35:29Z Odin-: cranium_: No, but at the same time you can hardly deny that there's a substantial gap between sysadmins and programmers in terms of how they think about using computers...
2021-04-21T15:35:42Z cranium_: That is definitely true.
2021-04-21T15:35:44Z easye: It's amazing how many companies in the Valley, China, and India have redone the openjdk8 rather than deal with ORCL 'cuz they need it for their biz.
2021-04-21T15:35:47Z nick3000: Bike: Okay thanks.
2021-04-21T15:36:19Z Odin-: easye: I think Java is more visibly so than COBOL used to be.
2021-04-21T15:36:23Z MichaelRaskin: Odin-: you mean sysadmins are forced to have at least some realism?
2021-04-21T15:36:24Z jcowan: Indeed, in experimental psychology much of what we think we know is based on studies with WEIRDos (people from Western, Educated, Industrialized, Rich, Democratic societies).
2021-04-21T15:36:39Z easye: Odin-: I've always considered myself both an admin and a programmer.  They tend to reinforce each other, esp. when one deals with embedded development.
2021-04-21T15:37:07Z jcowan: Devops/SRE are designed to bridge that gap
2021-04-21T15:37:26Z easye: jcowan: WEIRDos is an interesting framework.  I haven't read the book yet.  Worth it?
2021-04-21T15:37:45Z Odin-: MichaelRaskin: Well, yes. Sometimes. At other times, they don't need to understand _how_ computers work to the same extent, so take strange routes. I'm not making a value judgement either way.
2021-04-21T15:37:57Z easye read the _NY Review of Books_ and the AstralCodex writeups of WEIRDos.
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2021-04-21T15:39:08Z Josh_2: bit offtopic
2021-04-21T15:39:10Z easye fears he has frayed the boundaries of #lisp topicality to the breaking point, and will shut up for a whilw.
2021-04-21T15:39:37Z Odin-: easye: They wouldn't reinforce each other if they didn't differ to some extent, though. Otherwise they'd just be the same thing twice. :p
2021-04-21T15:39:41Z Odin-: Hrm.
2021-04-21T15:39:54Z Odin-: Good point.
2021-04-21T15:39:57Z Odin- shuts up.
2021-04-21T15:40:23Z nature: Perfect time for me to come back on topic, do anybody has some experience with SLIMV here? :D Is it similar to SLIME or will I miss some things?
2021-04-21T15:40:41Z easye: nature: you will miss Emacs?
2021-04-21T15:40:58Z nature: I don't even know how to close the thing :/
2021-04-21T15:40:59Z jcowan: http://hci.ucsd.edu/102b/readings/WeirdestPeople.pdf is a very accessible article from Behavior and Brain Sciences, with the added B&BS feature of open peer commentary (which are as twice as long as the article itself) and a final comment by the authors.
2021-04-21T15:41:08Z easye: jcowan: thanks.
2021-04-21T15:41:25Z jcowan: s/commentary/commentaries
2021-04-21T15:41:56Z Odin-: nature: I believe some people get by without editor support at all, so I don't think you _have_ to use emacs.
2021-04-21T15:42:20Z easye can't imagine dealing with git without magit.
2021-04-21T15:42:22Z Lycurgus would wanna use SLY but the world drags one back to SLIME
2021-04-21T15:43:20Z Odin-: In particular, I don't think learning both how to use emacs and Lisp at the same time is what you'd call a shallow learning curve.
2021-04-21T15:43:30Z Lycurgus suggests the SLY author make XREF easy to compete
2021-04-21T15:43:53Z MichaelRaskin: Odin-: true, I prefer Vim without external plugins for writing code, which sometimes includes thousands of lines of Common Lisp
2021-04-21T15:45:27Z nature: Isn't editor support and the possibility to iterate quickly with SLIME one of the main selling point of Lisp?
2021-04-21T15:45:35Z cranium_: There has been talk about development of an Lisp IDE a few days ago.
2021-04-21T15:46:18Z beach: nature: MichaelRaskin's code is very un-idiomatic looking, so you might want to think twice before emulating him.
2021-04-21T15:46:57Z cranium_: Frankly I think the iterative development thing is one of CL's stronger aspects _despite_ Emacs, though I have basically done none of it.
2021-04-21T15:47:19Z beach: nature: He is a good programmer otherwise, in that his code works well.  It is just that he refuses to use the tools that make his code idiomatic-looking.
2021-04-21T15:47:54Z Odin-: nature: It's certainly a convenience, yes. But you can do much of the iterative work just through the implementation's REPL, if it comes to that.
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2021-04-21T15:49:07Z MichaelRaskin: beach: to be fair, all tools that would make my code idiomatic looking are integrated with Emacs that I dislike for more than one reason
2021-04-21T15:49:20Z nature: Are there people doing things the "UNIX way" in the Lisp world?
2021-04-21T15:49:25Z beach: MichaelRaskin: I understand.  Just stating the facts.
2021-04-21T15:49:39Z Odin-: nature: That depends on what you mean by "the UNIX way".
2021-04-21T15:49:41Z beach: nature: SLIME helps with a number of things, such as displaying lambda lists of various operators as you type a form.  You would want to make sure your tool can do the same.
2021-04-21T15:50:06Z cranium_: what is meant by "the UNIX way"? Lots of small tools? Pipes? Vim?
2021-04-21T15:50:21Z MichaelRaskin: I will happily use Eclector + pretty printer once there is such a combo usable as formatter
2021-04-21T15:50:22Z nature: mostly pipes and small tools yeah
2021-04-21T15:50:36Z beach: nature: Then no.
2021-04-21T15:50:41Z Odin-: nature: What are 'small tools'?
2021-04-21T15:50:54Z Odin-: Small binaries that you run from the shell, then no.
2021-04-21T15:51:01Z nature: grep, fmt, vi, etc...
2021-04-21T15:51:03Z beach: nature: Common Lisp is better with small tools that cooperate using the conventions of Common Lisp inside a single Common Lisp image.
2021-04-21T15:51:04Z Odin-: Small pieces of code that you run from the REPL, sure.
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2021-04-21T15:51:40Z nature: So the REPL is really the central piece?
2021-04-21T15:51:43Z beach: yes.
2021-04-21T15:51:52Z MichaelRaskin: nature: I sometimes kind of do, but that's when I don't like both Lisp world option and pure-shell option
2021-04-21T15:52:08Z MichaelRaskin: If you want Lisp world, REPL makes infinitely more sense
2021-04-21T15:52:32Z cranium_: nature, I don't think so, as these Unix tools are there to manipulate text ("text is a universal interface"), whereas the idiomatic way in Lisp is to manipulate and express data through Lists (i.e. actual data structures)
2021-04-21T15:52:45Z beach: nature: When you work with Common Lisp, it is most convenient to think of the Common Lisp system as your main environment and to adopt the conventions of that environment.
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2021-04-21T15:53:02Z Odin-: nature: You're not _that_ far off if you think about the REPL as being analogous to the command shell.
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2021-04-21T15:53:20Z nature: That makes a lot of sense
2021-04-21T15:53:43Z Odin-: nature: Although, as noted here, Lisp doesn't work only with streams of bytes.
2021-04-21T15:53:48Z MichaelRaskin: Have you ever written a thousand-line shell script that would do something useful correctly?
2021-04-21T15:54:13Z MichaelRaskin: If not, there is surely nothing for you in a mixed flow
2021-04-21T15:54:17Z beach: nature: The Unix way, communicating with sequences of bytes, is usually way too primitive for any serious work, which is why Unix applications tend to be huge monoliths.  Common Lisp does not have that problem, because communication can be in the form of complex objects.
2021-04-21T15:54:34Z cranium_: Has CL historically (think Lisp machines / OSs) been just one big environment (i.e. one image in modern parliance) that people did all their computing in? Do some people still do that?
2021-04-21T15:55:04Z beach: cranium_: I should hope so.
2021-04-21T15:56:08Z nature: That's really interesting to grasp, I've been quite puzzled lately on how to reconcile both world, when in facts it's actually a bad idea
2021-04-21T15:56:34Z beach: cranium_: The convenience of being able to just pass a pointer to some complex data structure (and preserving its identity), rather than having to serialize it (and losing its identity) is just so great.
2021-04-21T15:56:40Z Odin-: cranium_: Lisp originated as a more or less interactive language at a time before time sharing was much of a thing, and I think the assumptions have kinda stuck.
2021-04-21T15:57:00Z contrapunctus: beach: I've been thinking about that, actually...like I was imagining a system where communication between composable applications occurs through structured data rather than text...but then it occurred to me - that's exactly what awk is made for 🤔 of course, I know very little awk and have never done a lot with it...
2021-04-21T15:57:03Z Odin-: cranium_: So, yeah, conceptually, that's usually how it's been.
2021-04-21T15:57:18Z MichaelRaskin: For the record, the convenience of being able to enforce copy-able serialisation is also great.
2021-04-21T15:57:39Z cranium_: nature, reading the SHCL github page, its approach seems like a quite natural fit. Have the shell be a CL application and escape to CL at any point.
2021-04-21T15:57:39Z beach: contrapunctus: Structure is not all there is to it though.  Like I said, preserving identity is an important aspect too.
2021-04-21T15:58:27Z Odin-: nature: I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say it's a 'bad idea', but I would say that it is in many ways much easier to use Unix land from Lisp land than the other way around.
2021-04-21T15:58:47Z contrapunctus: nature: this might interest you - https://ambrevar.xyz/lisp-repl-shell/index.html
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2021-04-21T15:58:54Z MichaelRaskin: Both are easy if you cross the border once
2021-04-21T16:00:41Z beach: nature: You might also be interested in sections 1.1 and 1.2 of this document: http://metamodular.com/closos.pdf
2021-04-21T16:01:07Z cranium_: I mean awk still deals primarily with text and structures its data through text object (e.g. entries are separated by literal tabs). IIRC PowerShell of all things has brought some actually structured data into shell environments.
2021-04-21T16:01:25Z Odin-: Why 'of all things'? :p
2021-04-21T16:02:56Z cranium_: Not sure. Or maybe because it's MS.
2021-04-21T16:03:05Z Odin-: Microsoft probably has more people working on that kind of stuff that _aren't_ predisposed to think Unix had everything right than any other OS vendor.
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2021-04-21T16:03:18Z Odin-: (Even the non-corporate ones.)
2021-04-21T16:04:07Z MichaelRaskin: As a huge shell lover, Powershell seems to lose enough ergonomics of shell that I can as well use a programming-first language with REPL. Be it Common Lisp, Julia, or even Python
2021-04-21T16:04:24Z Odin-: The thing is, structured-data shells were one of the things Unix was built in rebellion against.
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2021-04-21T16:04:44Z cranium_: With what reasoning?
2021-04-21T16:05:13Z mole1000: I am a little upset about how much I have come to use powershell...  I hate that I like it for some reason.
2021-04-21T16:06:08Z nature: All that is very interesting
2021-04-21T16:06:20Z Odin-: cranium_: They were too complex, according to the Unix designers.
2021-04-21T16:06:23Z contrapunctus: beach: I see...my interest is piqued, but I'm embarrassed to say that I don't understand the idea completely. Could you give me an example of a situation where passing a pointer might be preferable?
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2021-04-21T16:12:20Z beach: contrapunctus: Performance is one aspect of it.  But also preserving the identity.  For example, if you have an information system with different modules presenting or processing (say) people or organizations, you don't want to end up with several copies of such an object.  You would want a modification to an object by one module to be automatically reflected in other modules.
2021-04-21T16:12:24Z cranium_: I mean, I can't think of an example, but imagine you have programmatically generated some kind of tree structure (like a html tree). In a Unix world you would need to convert that to html (i.e. text), pass it to some other tool and that other tool has to parse it in again. But I'm not sure what is meant with the "identity" part.
2021-04-21T16:12:54Z cranium_: oh, so basically avoiding redundancy?
2021-04-21T16:13:04Z beach: Yes, copying loses identity, so how you must synchronize different copies.
2021-04-21T16:13:36Z beach: cranium_: It is also not semantically sane.  What does it mean to have two copies of a person or an organization in one piece of software?
2021-04-21T16:14:42Z Lycurgus: unix is the default OS
2021-04-21T16:14:48Z Lycurgus: that battle is over
2021-04-21T16:15:01Z Lycurgus: as far as server is concerned
2021-04-21T16:15:11Z beach: Lycurgus: Not to a researcher, fortunately.
2021-04-21T16:15:25Z Lycurgus: oh?
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2021-04-21T16:15:44Z Lycurgus: it is sofar as I can tell for researchers a fortiorit
2021-04-21T16:15:46Z cranium_: I mean right now "the battle is over" but who knows what the world looks like in let's say.... 50 years.
2021-04-21T16:15:49Z Lycurgus: *fortiori
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2021-04-21T16:16:11Z Lycurgus: i remember a trade mag in the early 90s declaring unix dead
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2021-04-21T16:16:23Z beach: Lycurgus: How would progress be possible if researchers accepted the mediocrity of the current situation?
2021-04-21T16:16:58Z splittist: There are many, many people who spend all day in Windows, of course.
2021-04-21T16:17:01Z Lycurgus: well you're taking about forward work
2021-04-21T16:17:14Z beach: Lycurgus: That's my job, yes.
2021-04-21T16:17:49Z contrapunctus: Lycurgus: UNIX was dead even in the eyes of its creators, it would seem, if you look at the Plan 9 papers.
2021-04-21T16:18:01Z Lycurgus: if they're working in research they most likely use that windows machine as a client to a network of unix servers
2021-04-21T16:18:04Z cranium_: You know that quote that goes "tomorrow's unix will be like today's Unix, only cruftier"? I think at some point there's gonna be so much cruft the whole thing won't be feasible anymore.
2021-04-21T16:18:11Z Odin-: Lycurgus: C is the default programming language, too. You're here, so I don't expect you to think that using anything else is pointless.
2021-04-21T16:18:34Z beach: Odin-: Very good point.
2021-04-21T16:18:42Z Lycurgus: Odin - not following
2021-04-21T16:19:04Z Lycurgus: C is the machine lang of this time, if that's what you mean
2021-04-21T16:19:15Z Lycurgus: *c/c++
2021-04-21T16:19:25Z Lycurgus: oic
2021-04-21T16:19:33Z cranium_: Said differently: The unix model and its assumptions generated contradictions the instant it left the PDP-11 and at some point these are gonna be too much. See https://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=3212479
2021-04-21T16:19:43Z Lycurgus: yes, lisp is one of my preferred langs with prolog and haskell
2021-04-21T16:20:10Z Lycurgus: but I will use java or js or whatever if there's a compelling reason
2021-04-21T16:20:51Z Lycurgus: btw, anybody used cl-react?
2021-04-21T16:20:56Z cranium_: That is to my understanding the canonical approach to choosing a tool.
2021-04-21T16:20:57Z beach: Lycurgus: I think Odin- (and me too) interpreted your Unix thing as meaning that we should all give up and just use it as it is and keep quiet.
2021-04-21T16:20:59Z Odin-: Lycurgus: Unix is the default operating system, so everything has to accommodate its assumptions. That is true. But C is the default programming language, to the extent that ISAs are actually _specifically_ geared towards it, and everything also needs to accommodate its assumptions. Yet you're in an IRC channel geared towards Common Lisp, a language that very much does _not_ follow the same assumptions as C. So clea
2021-04-21T16:20:59Z Odin-: rly you don't think that the fact that those assumptions need to be accommodated mean that they have to be taken as everything that's possible.
2021-04-21T16:21:13Z Lycurgus: that was a misread
2021-04-21T16:21:29Z Lycurgus: i was just reporting the current state of affairs
2021-04-21T16:21:38Z beach: Got it.
2021-04-21T16:22:00Z Odin-: Well, it came into a discussion about alternative ways of operating, so I'll contend it was a reasonable read. :p
2021-04-21T16:23:08Z Lycurgus: like a lot of people I'm working on a lisp OS, an AI OS actually
2021-04-21T16:23:23Z Lycurgus: using the 3 langs mentioned
2021-04-21T16:23:41Z MichaelRaskin: Linux, is quite unassuming about what you do on top, os even if you run Linux for drivers, you can run a single Lisp image on top and do everything there
2021-04-21T16:23:51Z Odin-: Linux is not Unix.
2021-04-21T16:23:56Z Odin-: Like, at _all_.
2021-04-21T16:23:59Z MichaelRaskin: Maybe FFI a thing here and there when needed
2021-04-21T16:24:19Z Lycurgus: in my position of course I meant unix the concept which includes linux
2021-04-21T16:24:26Z Odin-: Even the Linux distros are getting further and further away from anything you could sensibly call Unix-y.
2021-04-21T16:24:51Z Lycurgus: how is that?
2021-04-21T16:24:55Z MichaelRaskin: The part that goes away from Unix is pretty cheap to throw away
2021-04-21T16:25:17Z Lycurgus: at this point linux essentially defines unix
2021-04-21T16:25:26Z Odin-: They're picking up huge pieces of what Unix was built as a contrast to.
2021-04-21T16:25:28Z nature: I would argue against that :)
2021-04-21T16:25:44Z cranium_: I mean you're gonna have to do things via Linux syscalls and conform to e.g. its filesystem semantics, so while it isn't "assuming", it definitely imposes certain ways of doing things.
2021-04-21T16:25:44Z Lycurgus: so that the latter only is relevant to the former, the thing that actually worked out
2021-04-21T16:26:33Z beach: Odin-: There is still a file system and the concept of a process.
2021-04-21T16:26:47Z MichaelRaskin: cranium_: you probably should have a partition with a filesystem it expects, but if you want to manage a raw block device directly, you are quite welcome
2021-04-21T16:26:52Z Lycurgus: s/essentially/practically - pragmatically/
2021-04-21T16:27:34Z cranium_: Odin-, are you referring to systemd, wayland and such things?
2021-04-21T16:27:39Z Odin-: beach: Sure. But file systems in particular are something that Unix decided didn't need to be rebelled against.
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2021-04-21T16:28:25Z beach: Odin-: I don't understand.  Unix was meant to be an "implementable subset of Multics" and Multics did not have a file system.
2021-04-21T16:28:45Z beach: Multics didn't distinguish between primary and secondary memory.
2021-04-21T16:29:35Z Odin-: cranium_: They are part of it, but there's also a lot of stuff about how the kernel works. Mind you, they do keep the 'everything is a file, which is a sequence of bytes' nonsense...
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2021-04-21T16:30:45Z Odin-: beach: Uh, what? As I understood it, Multics was the first system to have a hierarchical file system.
2021-04-21T16:30:51Z beach: Odin-: Linux also still has the concept of a kernel, which Multics did not.
2021-04-21T16:31:07Z cranium_: beach, what did the memory thing mean in practice? That everything in RAM (which I assume _did_ still exist, von Neuman and so on) was persisted on the harddisk?
2021-04-21T16:31:24Z beach: Odin-: You are wrong.  It was a hierarchy of "segments" which are like vectors rather than files.
2021-04-21T16:32:26Z Odin-: beach: Considering that Unix considers files to be byte vectors, I don't see how you'd distinguish that from a Unix file system.
2021-04-21T16:32:59Z beach: Odin-: `read' as opposed to `a[i]'.
2021-04-21T16:33:15Z cranium_: I suppose it's about what's the interface semantics presented to the programmer.
2021-04-21T16:33:19Z beach: One is a sequence of bytes, the other one is a vector with random access.
2021-04-21T16:33:45Z beach: cranium_: Not quite, because of virtual memory.  Primary memory was more like a cache for the system-wide hierarchy of segments.
2021-04-21T16:34:22Z Odin-: beach: Where would `mmap` fall?
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2021-04-21T16:34:34Z beach: cranium_: Yes, exactly.  Secondary memory did not have any different semantics.
2021-04-21T16:35:19Z Odin-: ... all you've done is convince me I need to go find a Multics emulator now. :p
2021-04-21T16:35:31Z beach: Odin-: mmap is a kludge to make something similar, and the Linux dynamic linker is a pale imitation of the Multics linker.
2021-04-21T16:35:41Z aap: there's a public multics you can get an account on
2021-04-21T16:35:52Z aap: https://ban.ai/multics/
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2021-04-21T16:37:00Z Odin-: Interesting.
2021-04-21T16:37:29Z aap knows embarassingly little about multics...
2021-04-21T16:37:35Z MichaelRaskin: Technically speaking, it is glibc dynamic linker
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2021-04-21T16:37:45Z beach: MichaelRaskin: Thanks!
2021-04-21T16:38:04Z MichaelRaskin: In the sense that one could have things linked with a different one side-by-side on the same Linux system
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2021-04-21T16:39:31Z Odin-: beach: So your argument is that Multics doesn't have the first hierarchical file system, because file systems are less featureful than what Multics had?
2021-04-21T16:41:04Z beach: Odin-: It had a hierarchical system, but not of files, because there was not the concept of a file.  Just one type of memory.  Someone implemented a "file system" on top of the Multics segment hierarchy, just to please people who wanted something worse.
2021-04-21T16:41:26Z beach: `vfile' I think it was called.
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2021-04-21T16:43:35Z beach: Furthermore, there was no kernel.  Just a bunch of executable segments that could be replaced individually without taking the system down.
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2021-04-21T16:47:26Z beach: Odin-: So there were no system calls OPEN/CLOSE/READ/WRITE.
2021-04-21T16:47:55Z beach: Odin-: You would just obtain a pointer to the beginning of a segment, and start using it as a vector of bytes.
2021-04-21T16:48:20Z beach: Pointers where in two parts, by the way segment-number,offset.
2021-04-21T16:49:20Z beach: Obtaining a pointer to a segment converted a path in the hierarchy to a segment number, but all that was transparent.  The programmer and the user always dealt with segments by name.
2021-04-21T16:50:28Z beach: Now, Multics still had the concept of a process, because the address space was still too small.  18 bits for the segment number and 18 bits for the offset.
2021-04-21T16:51:13Z beach: And I don't think the Multics model would be a good one for a new operating system.  Just better than Unix and Linux ever were.
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2021-04-21T16:52:22Z aap: hm, aren't full pointers 72 bits?
2021-04-21T16:53:12Z beach: Some things were 72 bits, but I forget the details.
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2021-04-21T16:53:51Z beach: My (admittedly small) family just announced that dinner is served, so I am off for today.  I'll be back tomorrow (UTC+2).
2021-04-21T16:55:49Z jcowan: I object to the claim that Unix pipes are "streams of bytes"; it is true only in the sense that a Lisp pair is a byte array.
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2021-04-21T16:57:06Z nature: Bye beach thanks for the very interesting insights!
2021-04-21T16:59:07Z jcowan: Also, the Multics supervisor was very much like the Linux kernel: it was mapped into the same virtual addresses in every process (its stack was mapped into different physical memory, of course), and it could not be replaced except by rebooting.
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2021-04-21T17:01:01Z jcowan: (Indeed, you needed a special program to overwrite the boot media; the supervisor was not addressable as a file)
2021-04-21T17:04:05Z semz: "streams of bytes divided into often small but technically unbounded logical sections by 10s with an often implicit encoding"?
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2021-04-21T17:05:52Z semz: I'm being snarky and think I understand what you're getting at, but the lack of explicit structure is one of the biggest problems imo
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2021-04-21T17:49:46Z jcowan: One of the great breakthroughs in Multics was the provision of byte-stream files, which are closely related to Unix byte-stream pipes.  All OSes before that, and many afterwards, had per-application formats, which made interoperability difficult or impossible.
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2021-04-21T17:51:29Z jcowan: McIlroy's file structure test: write a program that copies itself to another file, run the program, and compile the copy.  Most pre-UNIX OSes couldn't do that without introducing an expert who knew how to convert sequential output to whatever the compiler expects.
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2021-04-21T17:59:16Z flip214: nature: slimv and vlime user, vlime in the past years. if you need help, just ask.
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2021-04-21T18:01:38Z Xach: hmm, does anyone have any references to the serialize-to-fasl trick?
2021-04-21T18:02:11Z Xach: I seem to remember a technique like compiling a file consisting only of (defvar *var* #.*var*) or some such thing.
2021-04-21T18:02:21Z Xach: I'm having trouble finding it again.
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2021-04-21T18:04:01Z Bike: i don't know what there is to explain beyond that? maybe that you have to have make-load-form defined
2021-04-21T18:04:29Z Xach: Hmm
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2021-04-21T18:24:42Z kevingal: I've noticed a reference or two to "non-idiomatic" lisp code, what does that mean to y'all? Overuse of imperative / stateful programming style?
2021-04-21T18:25:45Z kevingal: I'm curious what Common Mistakes are made by new Common Lisp programmers.
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2021-04-21T18:32:29Z jasom: kevingal: using assignment functions instead of their setf form (e.g. rplacd instead of (setf (cdr ...))); assigning to a special without first having a defvar/defparameter for it; having special variables without *earmuffs*;  improper indentation of code; putting closing parentheses on their own line
2021-04-21T18:32:51Z semz: kevingal: I wouldn't say being imperative is unidiomatic for CL. For Scheme maybe. Typical unidiomatic code by beginners for me would be overuse of macros (especially for things that could easily be functions) and reimplementing some of the (admittedly extensive) standard facilities.
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2021-04-21T18:34:35Z jasom: kevingal: Then there's the "learned lisp in Uni" errors: using symbol plists instead of hash-tables; using tail-recursion instead of looping constructs; putting everything in cl-user.
2021-04-21T18:36:18Z nij: Oooh! I'm making many newbs mistakes.
2021-04-21T18:36:23Z kevingal: Interesting, thanks. Why is the setf form preferred to the likes of rplacd?
2021-04-21T18:36:38Z nij: jasom:  do you mean I should use looping constructs but not tail-recursion?
2021-04-21T18:37:06Z nij: Also.. why do we need to defvar/defparameter in the first place?
2021-04-21T18:38:19Z jasom: kevingal: mainly because it's more obvious that  (setf (cdr x)) is the mutator for (cdr x); rplacd predates generalized references
2021-04-21T18:39:02Z jasom: kevingal: you'll notice there isn't a "sethash" just (setf (gethash...))
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2021-04-21T18:40:03Z jasom: nij: you should use what is most clear to represent the problem.  Going through contortions to turn iterative code into tail-recursion is not idiomatic.  Plus CL makes no guarantees about elminating tail-calls (and dynamic binding can make it harder to visually identify what is and isn't a tail-call)
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2021-04-21T18:40:52Z jasom: nij: you need defvar/defparameter because (setf *foo* 3) is ill-defined code; most implementations will just assume that *foo* is supposed to be special, but it's not guaranteed.  Plus the declaration allows for dynamic-binding in a LET form which can be very handy
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2021-04-21T18:42:41Z jasom: speaking of dynamic bindings another non-idiomatic form is: (let ((old-foo *foo*)) (setf *foo* 3) (unwind-protect (...) (setf *foo* old-foo)) instead of (let ((*foo* 3)) ...)
2021-04-21T18:42:57Z nij: jasom: yeah.. lisp does warn me when I setf right away. But it always worked for me.. when will it crash and why is it bad?
2021-04-21T18:43:20Z nij: (setf a 1) => 1
2021-04-21T18:43:24Z Bike: implementations don't have to support that
2021-04-21T18:43:28Z nij: (let ((b 3)) (+ a b)) => 4
2021-04-21T18:43:33Z Bike: most of them do, but relying on that makes your code nonconforming
2021-04-21T18:43:47Z nij: Oh, I see. It is not the standard.
2021-04-21T18:44:00Z Bike: also, stylistically, declaiming a variable special is much better than just using it immediately
2021-04-21T18:44:01Z jasom: nij: that has 2 non-idiomatics for the price of 1; special variables should have *earmuffs* on their names
2021-04-21T18:44:16Z Bike: variables showing up with no definition is confusing to the reader
2021-04-21T18:44:36Z nij: I see.
2021-04-21T18:44:44Z jasom: nij: (defvar x) (let ((x 1) (y 2)) ...) ;; the bindings for x and y are very different due to x being declared special
2021-04-21T18:45:23Z kevingal: jasom: makes sense, rplacd has always seemed like a horrendous name to me. Not sure if  'car' and 'cdr' seem less bad only because I've gotten used to them.
2021-04-21T18:46:12Z nature: flip214: Thanks! My initial question was if I am going to lose much by straying away from the standard emacs+SLIME setup, since I am really confortable with vi-like bindings?
2021-04-21T18:46:49Z jasom: kevingal: If I had to guess, the name is because there was some machine with 6-bit characters and 36-bit words so 6 letters would fit in a single machine word
2021-04-21T18:46:51Z kevingal: I wasn't aware that CL didn't guarantee tail-call optimisation!
2021-04-21T18:47:28Z nij: If not emacs+SLIME, I'm not sure if there's any good IDE for common-lisp.
2021-04-21T18:47:30Z jasom: kevingal: most implementations do it most of the time.  gnu clisp won't do it when interpreting code, only with compiled code.
2021-04-21T18:47:40Z kevingal: Ya, I no longer question historical design decisions, I just accept them, ha.
2021-04-21T18:47:45Z jasom: nature: I'm a lifelong vim user; I recommend evil-mode on emacs
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2021-04-21T18:48:44Z jasom: nature: I hear slimv (a slime-like vim plugin) is pretty good these days; it was completely unusable when I first used it so I just got emacs setup the way I wanted it.
2021-04-21T18:48:49Z nij: I started with vim and ended up with evil-mode. It will take you some time to get used to emacs.. but it'd worth it (cuz it's lisp :D)!
2021-04-21T18:49:14Z jasom: nature: literally the only thing you need to know that's emacs specific once you get setup with evil-mode is "control-g instead of escape"
2021-04-21T18:49:46Z jasom: nature: (that's for getting out of weird dialogs; escape still exits insert mode like normal)
2021-04-21T18:49:51Z nij: jasom:  it'd be a little bit intimidating if nature just wants to play with lisp.
2021-04-21T18:50:13Z nij: entering emacs is somehow hard in that it takes time to get used to it
2021-04-21T18:50:16Z jasom: for just playing with lisp, edit in vim, use emacs/slime as your repl and just mouse around
2021-04-21T18:50:28Z jasom: I did that for 5 years
2021-04-21T18:50:28Z nij: I was a bit unhappy that slime/sly is almost exclusive for emacs user..
2021-04-21T18:51:26Z nij: Btw, I'm amazed after I macroexpand-1 some setf form..
2021-04-21T18:51:30Z nature: It felt a bit "overkill" to use emacs just for lisp, thanks for the recom tho, I might give a shot to evil mode then
2021-04-21T18:51:44Z nij: But I cannot find its source. Not even with `M-x sly-edit-definition`.
2021-04-21T18:51:59Z Bike: the source of macroexpand-1?
2021-04-21T18:52:08Z jasom: nature: it felt that way for me too for a bit; I was using rlwrap on sbcl.  It was a *huge* improvement to just use the SLIME repl and nothing else from emacs
2021-04-21T18:52:11Z Xach: that is why many people use emacs for filesystem management, reading mail, reading usenet, taking notes, managing their calendar, chatting on irc...it's a little bit wasteful to use it just for lisp hacking.
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2021-04-21T18:53:10Z nij: I'd say vimmer mindset and emacser mindset are quite different.
2021-04-21T18:53:26Z nij: Dunno if I can persuade the my past self if not deceiving him!
2021-04-21T18:53:36Z nij: Bike:  oh, no I mean the source of setf.
2021-04-21T18:53:51Z jasom: nij: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/m_defi_3.htm says a lot about the inputs to the SETF macro
2021-04-21T18:53:53Z Bike: can you get the source of other standard functions?
2021-04-21T18:54:17Z nij: But really, I think what truly makes emacs stands out is and only is (its great community + LISP).
2021-04-21T18:54:29Z nij: Bike:  Can't we :O?!?!
2021-04-21T18:54:36Z nature: Okay thanks :)
2021-04-21T18:54:46Z Bike: i'm just wondering if your implemenation's source isn't hooked in properly
2021-04-21T18:55:03Z jasom: Well operating systems are only as good as their applications and the emacs community is what writes the applications for the emacs OS.  Now with evil-mode it has a good editor too :)
2021-04-21T18:55:43Z nij: Oh I see Bike.. hmm lemme the message again.
2021-04-21T18:56:37Z kagevf: I've been using vim since 2011, love it, use its emulation plugins in other editors, but I use emacs for the last 18 months to take notes and code Lisp ... I just use vanilla emacs .... your muscle memory eventually catches up
2021-04-21T18:56:43Z nij: Oh no apparently not.. it says "/home/christophe/..." doesn't exist.
2021-04-21T18:56:50Z nij: I'm not christophe by the way.
2021-04-21T18:56:57Z Bike: that's pretty weird.
2021-04-21T18:57:16Z nij: I'm on doomemacs.. this is the price to pay for my laziness!
2021-04-21T18:57:27Z Xach: nij: (sb-ext:set-sbcl-source-location "/path/to/sbcl/sources") might help
2021-04-21T18:57:41Z nij: kagevf: yeah! me too! org-mode hooked me in the first place
2021-04-21T18:57:53Z kagevf: also, I like the fact that emacs keybindings work in any context - minibuffer, dired, slime repl ... the only caveat being that a mode can over-write it, but in general the keybindings are very consistent, even compared to vim
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2021-04-21T18:58:34Z nij: Vim is great cuz it's minimal~
2021-04-21T18:58:57Z kagevf: nij: I started with org mode first, and that was great for getting used to emacs, so a few months later when I started learning Lisp I was already comfortable with emacs ... worked out well, I think :)
2021-04-21T18:58:58Z nij: I got hooked to vim because of that. And then I discovered even more minimal editor, like vi.
2021-04-21T18:59:11Z nij: And that's the point I discard minimalism and embraced emacs.
2021-04-21T18:59:45Z nij: kagevf: pretty similar here ! And then I discovered lisp is the most elegant lang. Doomed, fell in love!
2021-04-21T19:00:04Z nature: I mostly use vi tho ^^' But I suppose I'll have to give in to emacs in order to get some "serious" coding
2021-04-21T19:00:57Z nij: Vi/Vim/Nvim are nice, and with enough skills you can do a lot. But... but .. it's not lisp.
2021-04-21T19:01:33Z kagevf: nij nature: I think emacs has great support for editing sexps ... this has some good info: http://cl-cookbook.sourceforge.net/emacs-ide.html
2021-04-21T19:02:07Z Josh_2: TIL that special variables should be earmuffed
2021-04-21T19:02:47Z nij: Xach: Ah, that might be the reason. I didn't compile sbcl myself. So no source code.. Maybe I should do that.
2021-04-21T19:03:15Z nij: But it seems that you're indicating I should look for the source for setf in sbcl. I will do that.
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2021-04-21T19:03:26Z nij: Is it the case that every cl implementation has different definition of setf?
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2021-04-21T19:04:31Z MichaelRaskin: I would believe so
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2021-04-21T19:05:44Z Krystof: nij: I am christophe, although if you are using Debian I am not christophe any more
2021-04-21T19:07:16Z nij: Lol you serious?
2021-04-21T19:07:26Z nij: I'm using arch. You are that christophe?
2021-04-21T19:08:13Z Krystof: I don't know!  Possibly not :)
2021-04-21T19:08:32Z Krystof: If you're using an x86-64 binary downloaded from SourceForge, then yes.  Otherwise no.
2021-04-21T19:08:46Z Krystof: And this doesn't particularly help your actual problem, but "hi" anyway
2021-04-21T19:09:15Z nij: "hi"! I was about to yell "What a small world!"
2021-04-21T19:09:24Z nij: and I realize.. yeah of course, this is the world about lisp.
2021-04-21T19:09:29Z Bike: if you installed sbcl from pacman it should have sources in in /usr/share/sbcl-source
2021-04-21T19:09:53Z mole1000: Yeah you are figuratively in a small world right now
2021-04-21T19:10:27Z nij: mole1000:  that's great. I always like smaller world.
2021-04-21T19:10:41Z nij: The actual size of the real world has been more and more scary for me.
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2021-04-21T19:43:40Z p_l: anyone knows if weblocks is still in working shape?
2021-04-21T19:44:27Z Shinmera: I know someone revived it
2021-04-21T19:44:35Z sveit: hi. in Haskell (and C++) there is support for so-called "constructor elision". This means that if one function allocations a structure, and the values from that structure are immediately extracted, the structure is never allocated. Will any of the compilers do this (or can they be coaxed to)?
2021-04-21T19:44:36Z Shinmera: But don't know what the canonical url for that is
2021-04-21T19:44:54Z Josh_2: the -p naming convention is for functions that return either t or nil right? I shouldn't use if I return t or signal a condition?
2021-04-21T19:45:12Z Shinmera: sveit: if you inline the constructor for a structure you can declare it dynamic extent in SBCL at least.
2021-04-21T19:45:41Z Shinmera: Josh_2: -p is for predicates. They may also return a generalised boolean.
2021-04-21T19:45:48Z p_l: Generally considering using it because I need to build a few apps that could be web based and I need something quick and dirty to get UI working... and I'm not great at web uis
2021-04-21T19:45:51Z Shinmera: Josh_2: What you're thinking of is usually a check-* function.
2021-04-21T19:45:57Z Josh_2: okay coolio
2021-04-21T19:46:32Z Josh_2: What do you mean by a 'generalized boolean' ?
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2021-04-21T19:47:16Z Shinmera: clhs glossary/generalized boolean
2021-04-21T19:47:16Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_g.htm#generalized_boolean
2021-04-21T19:49:43Z nature: p_l: https://github.com/40ants/weblocks/ is the new fork to my knowledge
2021-04-21T19:50:27Z nij: clhs knowledge
2021-04-21T19:50:27Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for knowledge.
2021-04-21T19:50:44Z Josh_2: okay thought so
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2021-04-21T19:57:31Z sveit: Shinmera: thanks! is there any chance that the dynamic-extent can be made to propagate to the fields of the structure as well?
2021-04-21T19:57:49Z sveit: *slots*
2021-04-21T19:58:29Z Bike: sveit: http://sbcl.org/manual/#Dynamic_002dextent-allocation explains how it works in detail. in short, it does propagate i think.
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2021-04-21T20:00:16Z sveit: thanks. this is very cool, SBCL is incredible.
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2021-04-21T20:01:52Z sveit: so what remains unclear is if I have a function returning a struct, and I declare a variable it is bound to dynamic-extent, will its result get stack allocated?
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2021-04-21T20:02:34Z sveit: that seems almost impossible in a dynamic language...
2021-04-21T20:02:59Z sveit: assuming the struct has an inlinable constructor of course
2021-04-21T20:03:05Z Bike: i don't think it will
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2021-04-21T20:03:07Z Bike: maybe if it's inlined?
2021-04-21T20:03:16Z Bike: the function returning a struct, i mean
2021-04-21T20:07:54Z jasom: be aware that dynamic-extent allocation has a fairly small effect on runtime thanks to the efficiency of SBCL's nursery collector
2021-04-21T20:08:56Z Shinmera: Depends. It can be well worth it to avoid triggering gcs.
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2021-04-21T20:11:42Z jcowan: Tail call optimization: SBCL, CMUCL, CCL, Allegro, Lispworks; Self-tail-call optimization: CLISP (bytecode compiler only), ECL, GCL.  Neither: ABCL.
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2021-04-21T20:22:56Z Josh_2: can't use methods on conditions :(
2021-04-21T20:23:08Z Josh_2: well thats vague, I mean can't dispatch on conditions
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2021-04-21T20:25:32Z p_l: nature: thanks :)
2021-04-21T20:25:48Z Bike: you should be able to specialize on condition classes, Josh_2
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2021-04-21T20:27:22Z Mandus: nature: here's another vim/slimv-person lurking around. I do a fair bit of hobby-programming in that envir and i suits me well (and I do all my paid work in vim too, but that's in other languages).
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2021-04-21T20:28:11Z Josh_2: Bike: if I use something like find-class?
2021-04-21T20:28:50Z Bike: that doesn't seem directly related, but yeah, you can probably use find-class on condition types
2021-04-21T20:29:12Z Bike: the standard is a little vague on this point, but i don't think any actual implementation makes condition types not be classes
2021-04-21T20:29:44Z Shinmera: What you can't specialise conditions on is initialize-instance.
2021-04-21T20:29:50Z Shinmera: well, you can, but it won't do anything.
2021-04-21T20:29:54Z Shinmera: at least not on sbcl
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2021-04-21T20:30:20Z Josh_2: Yep seems I'm just rarted
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2021-04-21T20:35:12Z phoe: all implementations implement conditions as classes
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2021-04-21T20:35:21Z phoe: and all except SBCL use standard-objects
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2021-04-21T20:36:01Z phoe: (where "all except SBCL" means CCL, ECL, Clasp, ABCL, CLISP, LispWorks, and ACL)
2021-04-21T20:36:11Z phoe: (and "all" means the above plus SBCL)
2021-04-21T20:36:47Z phoe: there's my ticket on SBCL that proposes adding initialize-instance support to condition classes, but it's not solved
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2021-04-21T20:37:54Z Josh_2: I had a smooth brain moment when and made a mistake naming the class in my defmethod
2021-04-21T20:38:18Z phoe: actually (defmethod foo ((thing condition) ...) ...) should work just fine
2021-04-21T20:38:29Z phoe: same with condition subclasses
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2021-04-21T22:50:46Z threenuc: Hi. How do I write an S-expr for "tag which does not have the attribute 'lang'"? (tag (attribute_name @_attr) (#not-eq @attr "lang")) matches when it finds any attribute that is not "lang", eg <div hello lang>
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2021-04-21T22:52:51Z no-defun-allowed: I dunno, how did you come up with the rest of that expression?
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2021-04-21T23:03:30Z kagevf: (tag (attributes (name1 . value1) (name2 . value2)) (non-attributes (lang name3 name4))) <-- maybe like that? threenuc
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2021-04-22T01:59:36Z ivysaur: hi, is email reg needed to join lispcafe?
2021-04-22T02:00:59Z Josh_2: Whats the fastest way I can read the number of lines in a file?
2021-04-22T02:01:48Z Josh_2: I can do it in about 0.1 seconds using wc -l. Right now I'm using cl-csv to iterate line by line and its doing 100,000 lines maybe every 5 seconds and theres over 13 million
2021-04-22T02:03:52Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, cl-csv is also doing a lot of parsing presumably.
2021-04-22T02:04:29Z Josh_2: yeh I was just thinking that
2021-04-22T02:04:42Z no-defun-allowed: How fast do you care for? A naive solution would be to repeatedly read-sequence into a buffer, counting the number of #\Newline characters (assuming you use Unix newlines, not Windows).
2021-04-22T02:04:59Z Josh_2: I think I will try that now
2021-04-22T02:05:13Z Josh_2: Just curious. Eventually I will have to let cl-csv parse the file
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2021-04-22T02:05:44Z no-defun-allowed: If that is the case, then just parse it. You'll get a line count too.
2021-04-22T02:07:33Z Josh_2: Its pretty quick to just count the lines the way you said no-defun-allowed
2021-04-22T02:08:19Z Josh_2: Maybe takes 1/2 seconds
2021-04-22T02:08:43Z Nilby: Right now my Lisp version of wc -l takes about 0.1 seconds per megabyte.
2021-04-22T02:09:14Z Josh_2: megabyte?
2021-04-22T02:09:16Z Nilby: or per 100 mb actually
2021-04-22T02:09:21Z Josh_2: more like it :P
2021-04-22T02:09:35Z Josh_2: This file is 1.1G
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2021-04-22T02:13:49Z no-defun-allowed: I am sure there is some further trickery you can do with, say, mmap-ing the file to bypass the stream interface, and then even some SIMD instructions (basically broadcast #x20, load some bytes from file, compare equal bytes, logcount?) but that's getting too cheeky.
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2021-04-22T02:15:11Z Josh_2: I might be able to just load the entire file into ram, that would probably speed things up
2021-04-22T02:15:11Z Nilby: my wc takes 1.504 seconds to do 1.1 GB
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2021-04-22T02:43:58Z Nilby: Sadly my slow CSV reader takes 51 seconds to read a 1.1GB CSV. I should probably do what no-defun-allowed said and speed it up with mmap and SIMD.
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2021-04-22T02:44:40Z no-defun-allowed: Hm, that suggestion was just for counting lines. I don't have a plan for SIMD-ifying CSV parsing, though I guess it's doable.
2021-04-22T02:44:53Z no-defun-allowed: Someone did it for JSON after all.
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2021-04-22T03:01:06Z Josh_2: sbcl seems to have just given up on me
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2021-04-22T03:04:49Z Josh_2: I suppose tomorrow I could try with trivial-mmap
2021-04-22T03:06:02Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-04-22T03:06:34Z Josh_2: G'mornin
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2021-04-22T03:09:48Z Josh_2: Well cl-csv gets stuck 6,500,000 entries in
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2021-04-22T03:11:11Z Jachy: Josh_2: is your SBCL's dynamic-space-size high enough?
2021-04-22T03:11:17Z Josh_2: Yep, I set it to 8gb
2021-04-22T03:12:39Z Josh_2: This was some code test my mate was given that he had to do in Java, cant let the CL side down now can I
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2021-04-22T04:33:14Z jeosol: Josh_2: I think you can get it to work. I once used SBCL to used a 60GB file (text file) without much problems. You'd probably have to play with the dynamic-space-size though.
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2021-04-22T05:01:48Z beach: phoe: I don't know whether you are aware of this Clojure talk from 2015, but it talks about condition systems: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zp0OEDcAro0 The Common Lisp condition system is sort of the model for the "ideas" in the talk.
2021-04-22T05:01:50Z beach: I am not sure whether to be delighted or saddened by what I learned about Clojure in this talk, though of course, it not being a language with an independent standard, it may have changed since this talk.
2021-04-22T05:02:27Z phoe: beach: I am, thank you
2021-04-22T05:02:55Z beach: And what did you think about it?
2021-04-22T05:03:17Z phoe: I watched it a long long long time ago and can no longer say
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2021-04-22T05:03:29Z beach: OK, don't worry about it then.
2021-04-22T05:04:48Z beach: The speaker doesn't say explicitly, but he favors what you told the WebAssembly people, namely "give me control structures, not exceptions"
2021-04-22T05:05:09Z phoe: :D
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2021-04-22T05:12:06Z beach: phoe: The other interesting thing about the talk is that he seems to use the same terminology as you have now popularized, i.e., that "exception" and "condition" mean different things.
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2021-04-22T05:22:06Z moon-child: beach: can not languages with standards change over time?
2021-04-22T05:23:34Z beach: Good question.  I would say "not really", because the name would have to be different, at least with a specific version attached.  The very purpose of a standard is that it never changes.
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2021-04-22T05:24:26Z beach: When referring to any standard, one would refer to a particular document that must remain the same forever.
2021-04-22T05:25:18Z moon-child: Hmmm.  I think stability is something you can _enable_ (or encourage) with a standard, but that its main purpose is to be an abstract expression of a language's semantics.
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2021-04-22T05:28:09Z beach: Sure, I am not talking about the purpose of a standard for a particular language.  I am just saying that "a standard" means a precise document published at a particular date and that will never change.  If you want your language to evolve, it can no longer be referred to as being what that document defines.
2021-04-22T05:29:08Z beach: ... so you can change your language, but you can't change the standards document.
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2021-04-22T05:35:36Z beach should learn to shut up more often.
2021-04-22T05:36:06Z jeosol: beach: I disagree about shutting up; there are those of us that learn from these tidbits ..
2021-04-22T05:36:30Z jeosol: :-)
2021-04-22T05:36:58Z beach: jeosol: Yes, and others who seem to take great pleasure in disagreeing for the hell of it, and that sometimes makes me upset.
2021-04-22T05:38:14Z jeosol: You correct people to use the right semantics and words, each function parameters in the lambda list than variables. While it takes time, getting the right terminology often makes communication easier
2021-04-22T05:38:48Z beach: I totally agree.
2021-04-22T05:39:05Z jeosol: each -> e.g.,
2021-04-22T05:40:39Z jackdaniel: that's where the new standard idea domes in :)
2021-04-22T05:40:48Z jackdaniel: comes*
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2021-04-22T05:48:26Z imode: beach: if a language standard never changes... C++?
2021-04-22T05:48:40Z imode: can we never change the kilogram standard then.
2021-04-22T05:49:33Z no-defun-allowed: C++ changes a lot.
2021-04-22T05:49:37Z imode: ah, I'm late to this party and that was already covered.
2021-04-22T05:49:49Z imode: they're definitely different languages.
2021-04-22T05:53:00Z jackdaniel: imode: "updating" common lisp standard is a running gag on this channel :)
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2021-04-22T05:55:24Z no-defun-allowed: you se the problem with CL is that it doesn't have the JavaScript variable hoisting rules, I have a patch to the CLHS which adds the hoisting rules and it will make CL 1000× more popular
2021-04-22T05:55:53Z jeosol: hoisting?
2021-04-22T05:56:37Z moon-child: js has fake lexical scope
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2021-04-22T05:58:27Z beach: imode: Clearly, I am not expressing myself very well.  There can't be more than one standards document that claims to be THE standards document for C++.  Like I said, the language may evolve, but different versions of the language must be defined by different documents.
2021-04-22T06:00:36Z pillton: ..and that is what C++ does e.g. C++98, C++03, C++11, C++14, C++17, C++20, ... You are making perfect sense beach.
2021-04-22T06:01:09Z beach: pillton: Thanks! (Whew!)
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2021-04-22T06:11:14Z imode: dynamic scoping is nice.
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2021-04-22T06:40:40Z remby: must be tough for a compiler to enforce that :P
2021-04-22T06:42:52Z beach: remby: To enforce what?
2021-04-22T06:43:29Z remby: which versions of the C++ standard are in use
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2021-04-22T06:46:13Z no-defun-allowed: Technically, I suppose you are supposed to use C++20 as of last December.
2021-04-22T06:47:22Z jackdaniel: ANSI C 89 for the win! :)
2021-04-22T06:48:01Z jackdaniel: that said, even C standard evolves (imo in saner direction than C++ standard)
2021-04-22T06:49:08Z remby: but I suppose the standards are backwards compatible so it's not bad?
2021-04-22T06:49:22Z moon-child: not completely compatible, but largely so
2021-04-22T06:49:28Z remby: so you can use features from C++ 20 in a C++ 03 codebase
2021-04-22T06:49:36Z jackdaniel: say you introduce a new reserved keyword, like _Complex
2021-04-22T06:49:51Z jackdaniel: and the old code uses the name _Complex as a variable name - it won't work
2021-04-22T06:49:59Z remby: oof
2021-04-22T06:50:14Z moon-child: jackdaniel: spec reserves __* and _[A-Z]*
2021-04-22T06:50:18Z jackdaniel: but languages are very similar, so usually a minimal amount of porting is needed
2021-04-22T06:50:24Z moon-child: so if your code was using that previously it was technically nonconformant
2021-04-22T06:50:59Z jackdaniel: mhm
2021-04-22T06:51:02Z remby: I guess C++ will become a lisp eventually :P
2021-04-22T06:51:07Z moon-child: however, there were actual (small) compat breaks.  E.G. removal of gets, making vlas an optional feature
2021-04-22T06:51:18Z moon-child: remby: greenspun's law comes to mind
2021-04-22T06:51:24Z moon-child: as well as steele quote about java
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2021-04-22T06:51:35Z remby: oh, what was the steele qoute?
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2021-04-22T06:51:55Z moon-child: 'And you're right: we were not out to win over the Lisp programmers; we were after the C++ programmers.  We managed to drag a lot of them about halfway to Lisp.  Aren't you happy?'
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2021-04-22T06:52:04Z remby: also this trend when it comes to growing languages I do seem to notice ... it's almost nefarious even
2021-04-22T06:52:28Z remby: ah nice haha
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2021-04-22T06:53:08Z moon-child: though phoe also points out that they also dragged a lot of lisp people about halfway back to c++.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
2021-04-22T06:53:28Z remby: I get competing compilers, but competing languages? mysterious
2021-04-22T06:53:41Z no-defun-allowed: "Notice that no one mentions that this way they also managed to drag a lot of Lisp programmers about halfway back to C++." — phoe
2021-04-22T06:53:43Z Jachy: Many C++ devs were already using the new features anyway in the form of things included in the Boost library, so for a lot of shops it hasn't been too bad
2021-04-22T06:54:00Z remby: I see
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2021-04-22T06:55:21Z remby: would you consider the lisp special forms to be statements?
2021-04-22T06:55:35Z remby: or can those be done in lisp too
2021-04-22T06:56:11Z no-defun-allowed: No, Lisp special forms are still "expressions" like anything else.
2021-04-22T06:56:18Z jackdaniel: afair the standard says that special operators may be implemented as ordinary functions (and it is at the implementer's discretion)
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2021-04-22T06:56:34Z no-defun-allowed: IF is a special form, but it still returns a value unlike a "statement", e.g. (if t 1 2) ⇒ 1
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2021-04-22T06:59:27Z beach: remby: The term "statement" is used in Common Lisp only to mean the elements of a TAGBODY that are not labels.
2021-04-22T06:59:55Z remby: beach, ok
2021-04-22T07:00:23Z remby: do implementations actually implement stuff like IF as  functions?
2021-04-22T07:00:27Z remby: just curious
2021-04-22T07:00:33Z beach: No.
2021-04-22T07:00:44Z jackdaniel: that would be inefficient
2021-04-22T07:00:52Z beach: But some special operators my be implemented as macros.
2021-04-22T07:01:07Z no-defun-allowed: I thought the standard said special operators may be implemented as ordinary functions, not macros.
2021-04-22T07:01:18Z beach: Oh?
2021-04-22T07:01:25Z jackdaniel: I've meant operators, not functions (when I've said the thing above)
2021-04-22T07:01:33Z no-defun-allowed: Oh crap, I mean the other way around. The opposite of what jackdaniel said.
2021-04-22T07:01:42Z beach: Yes.
2021-04-22T07:01:45Z jackdaniel: braino:)
2021-04-22T07:02:01Z no-defun-allowed: I forgot what I was doing while copying what jackdaniel said :)
2021-04-22T07:03:25Z beach: remby: Most (all?) special operators are considered as such because they have an evaluation rule that does not allow them to be functions.
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2021-04-22T07:04:58Z beach: remby: Some other standard operators that also can't be functions, but that could be implemented using other operators, are defined to be macros.
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2021-04-22T07:06:25Z remby: I see
2021-04-22T07:06:38Z beach: remby: So as special operators, you are left with those operators that are truly basic, and that can't be expressed as functions.
2021-04-22T07:07:40Z beach: There are a few exceptions to that rule, but not many.  Like LET* could be expressed as a macro expanding to nested LETs, but it would be a messy macro because of declarations.
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2021-04-22T09:51:33Z nij: Hello :) Is there a way to automatically dump the "closure" for a function? For example, for #'f as in (defun f (x) (g x)), the dumping should pull the information of #'g as well, and so on. The goal is to get the minimal data that reproduces #'f at the moment it's dumped.
2021-04-22T09:52:37Z beach: What is the meaning of "dump"?
2021-04-22T09:52:53Z jackdaniel: nij: do you mean "serialize to file"?
2021-04-22T09:53:15Z nij: jackdaniel: not necessarily to a file
2021-04-22T09:53:26Z nij: but yeah, that'd be a proof of concept
2021-04-22T09:53:52Z nij: beach: by dump i mean to create something that can reproduce #'f (at the moment of dumping) later
2021-04-22T09:54:00Z jackdaniel: there is no such way, g may be a function that is loaded without its source form
2021-04-22T09:54:12Z beach: nij: What is the meaning of "reproduce"?
2021-04-22T09:54:38Z beach: "define", "execute", "print"?
2021-04-22T09:54:47Z nij: beach: By reproduce I mean to have an entity that gives the same result as #'f would at the moment of being dumped.
2021-04-22T09:54:49Z Odin-: You'd need the ability to a.) get at the source of each function and b.) get at the lexical environment closed over by each closure, I think.
2021-04-22T09:55:01Z Odin-: And I think neither of those is covered by the standard.
2021-04-22T09:55:21Z nij: jackdaniel: Hm. But if we can get the source, then that's possible?
2021-04-22T09:55:23Z beach: nij: That would be an undecidable problem.
2021-04-22T09:55:49Z beach: nij: Still not possible.  A function can refer to the global environment.
2021-04-22T09:55:54Z nij: Odin-: Yeah.. I'm aware the standard doesn't do this. I'm wondering if it's possible.
2021-04-22T09:56:22Z nij: beach: Oh.. you mean i have to take a copy of the real world..
2021-04-22T09:56:39Z beach: Yes, in general.  But that's doable in many Common Lisp implementations.
2021-04-22T09:56:40Z Odin-: beach: But the global environment can be changed out from under it _anyway_, right?
2021-04-22T09:56:53Z nij: Then I should modulo my question with real-world/probabilistic content.
2021-04-22T09:57:21Z Odin-: That is, if the function relies on the global environment, it's already fragile, no?
2021-04-22T09:57:22Z beach: Odin-: Well, if you do SAVE-LISP-AND-DIE or equivalent, you are sure to have "dumped" it with everything in can refer to.
2021-04-22T09:57:47Z nij: beach: yes, but that's not minimal
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2021-04-22T09:57:59Z beach: nij: Minimal would be undecidable.
2021-04-22T09:58:04Z nij: Odin-: depends on the context
2021-04-22T09:58:11Z nij: beach: oh, why undecidable?!
2021-04-22T09:58:38Z Odin-: beach: Well, not external things. Like I/O streams. Right?
2021-04-22T09:59:18Z beach: nij: (if (= (ackermann 123 x) 234234234) (h1 x) (h2 x))
2021-04-22T09:59:30Z Nilby: nij: It is not possible to prove that every program terminates, or has finite recursion.
2021-04-22T09:59:33Z Odin-: I don't think there's any mechanism that can capture an _absolutely_ restorable environment.
2021-04-22T09:59:39Z beach: nij: The only way to decide whether h1 or h2 should be included is to solve the halting problem.
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2021-04-22T10:00:16Z nij: (if *riemann-hypothesis #'f #'g)
2021-04-22T10:00:27Z Odin-: Reduction to the halting problem is always fun.
2021-04-22T10:00:31Z beach: nij: Also, if you have a call to EVAL, then all bets are off, and that could very well be the case.
2021-04-22T10:00:52Z beach: (defun f (x) (eval (read)))
2021-04-22T10:01:33Z nij: The fact that we cannot take a minimal snapshot of some meaningful entities delights /me.
2021-04-22T10:01:44Z Nilby: But it is still useful in practice to try, since most programs are finite and provable.
2021-04-22T10:01:46Z nij: Oops, /me should be the subject.
2021-04-22T10:02:38Z nij: beach: What if I redefine "minimal" as in that everything that shows up in the form needs to be pulled?
2021-04-22T10:03:24Z beach: What you are looking for is the term "conservative approximation".
2021-04-22T10:03:34Z nij: (I just fancy a lisp machine that can communicate functions at one go.)
2021-04-22T10:03:46Z nij: (And the philosophical reason, which is minor but relevant.)
2021-04-22T10:03:46Z jackdaniel: sometimes it is possible to "dump" a function itself, but not functions that are called by it
2021-04-22T10:03:55Z ChoHag: You can in theory create the perfect closure you're referring to, whether you can get at its contents is another matter, but only without run-time mutation.
2021-04-22T10:03:57Z Odin-: Wouldn't the presence of 'eval' in the form then drag everything in the image in?
2021-04-22T10:03:57Z jackdaniel: (not portably of course)
2021-04-22T10:04:10Z beach: Defining a conservative approximation is a way to get around undecidability, in effect, but you still have the lack of tools.
2021-04-22T10:04:14Z nij: jackdaniel: if all functions' source codes are remembered, that should be possible?
2021-04-22T10:04:50Z nij: beach lack of tools?
2021-04-22T10:04:54Z jackdaniel: no, because not all functions are written in lisp
2021-04-22T10:05:04Z ChoHag: Odin-: Yes it would include all the "unwritten" assumptions made by the interpreter.
2021-04-22T10:05:05Z jackdaniel: some may be written in assembly for that instance
2021-04-22T10:05:14Z nij: jackdaniel: suppose everything is written in lisp!
2021-04-22T10:05:30Z nij: lisp can be written in lisp as well.. so include that
2021-04-22T10:05:47Z beach: nij: Whatever your Common Lisp implementation provides you with to get the source etc. of functions.  Also remember that G can be a closure, so you need to get to its static environment.  Few Common Lisp implementations would allow that.
2021-04-22T10:05:50Z nij: i might have to always assume a minimal lisp that's behind
2021-04-22T10:05:55Z Odin-: Will it be in Lisp at runtime, though?
2021-04-22T10:06:10Z nij: Odin-: ??
2021-04-22T10:06:24Z ChoHag: nij: You don't need much: https://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~doug/barem4.txt
2021-04-22T10:06:33Z jackdaniel: suppose a function modifies itself at runtime, how would you store that?
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2021-04-22T10:06:55Z jackdaniel: (defun foo (x) (defun foo (x) (list 1 x)))
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2021-04-22T10:07:03Z nij: ChoHag: don't need much for..?
2021-04-22T10:07:06Z beach: nij: G could be defined like this: (let ((y 234)) (defun g (x) (+ x y)))
2021-04-22T10:07:36Z Odin-: I mean, even if the interpreter/compiler is written in Lisp, that doesn't mean that it's sensibly available as Lisp from inside the runtime. In any case, you'd run into a bootstrap problem restoring that...
2021-04-22T10:07:37Z beach: nij: We have been through this before I seem to remember.
2021-04-22T10:07:40Z ChoHag: Don't need much to implement the minimal lisp that's behind..
2021-04-22T10:07:40Z nij: jackdaniel: since i'm looking at forms, in that case I just have to remember that foo does that.
2021-04-22T10:08:07Z nij: beach: we stopped at a protocol then
2021-04-22T10:08:18Z nij: I remember people did this through some black magic
2021-04-22T10:08:25Z jackdaniel: it doesn't make sense to me; but that may be my bad
2021-04-22T10:08:27Z nij: when the client needs to evaluate a function
2021-04-22T10:08:35Z nij: it actually asks the server to compute it
2021-04-22T10:08:52Z nij: ChoHag: oh yes , this i agree
2021-04-22T10:09:03Z nij: beach: But I wasn't satisfied by that..
2021-04-22T10:09:41Z beach: nij: The essence was that there is no way to get the source form of such a function.
2021-04-22T10:09:48Z nij: Odin-: hmmmmmmmmmmmm I still don't fully understand.. could you perhaps elaborate more?..
2021-04-22T10:09:58Z nij: beach: that's the de facto, yes
2021-04-22T10:10:23Z nij: But if we force each compiled function to also remember its source code, wouldn't it be possible?
2021-04-22T10:10:39Z nij: We just embed the source code as text in a segment.
2021-04-22T10:10:44Z beach: nij: Again, the (let ((y...)) is not part of the source code.
2021-04-22T10:11:04Z Odin-: You need the lexical environment as well.
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2021-04-22T10:11:34Z beach: nij: You can have (let ((y 234)) (defun g (x) ...) (defun h (x) (setf y x))) and H could have been called before you want the "closure" of F.
2021-04-22T10:11:36Z nij: Oh.. so it might be unrealistic to require that..
2021-04-22T10:11:36Z Odin-: Which, obviously, _is_ kept around, but there's no easy way to get at it.
2021-04-22T10:11:57Z nij: Damn
2021-04-22T10:12:16Z nij: Great food of thoughts. I think I need to think more on this.
2021-04-22T10:12:24Z nij: Indeed there are lots of failing point.
2021-04-22T10:12:29Z Odin-: Oh, and yes, the lexical environments of different closures don't have to be independent ... so you may need to dump multiple functions at a time.
2021-04-22T10:12:56Z nij: Yeah, Odin- .. I'm even thinking how to merge two minimal dumps.
2021-04-22T10:12:58Z beach: Odin-: I think you mean the "static environment", no?
2021-04-22T10:13:06Z nij: but that's even more unachievable i guess
2021-04-22T10:13:28Z Odin-: beach: Probably, come to think of the etymology.
2021-04-22T10:14:18Z Odin-: beach: That is, I do mean the actual bindings, not just whatever 'let' forms established them.
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2021-04-22T10:15:12Z beach: Odin-: Yes, I think it is usually called the "static environment".  The term "lexical environment" usually means what is manipulated at compile time.
2021-04-22T10:15:40Z Odin-: That's a distinction that makes sense, but I hadn't considered before.
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2021-04-22T10:29:50Z flip214: minion: memo for nature: Sorry, I have nearly zero experience with emacs and slime, so I can't say what you're gonna miss. I'm find with what I have
2021-04-22T10:29:50Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell nature when he/she/it next speaks.
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2021-04-22T11:01:08Z scymtym: nij: maybe look at pkhuong's "common cold". if i remember correctly, it allows capturing and serializing the lexical environment, but not the transitive closure of called functions you are also looking for. the link seems dead now, but maybe it will be restored: https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/lisp?around=1497521995#1497521995
2021-04-22T11:03:07Z nij: scymtym: that deadlink make me very curious
2021-04-22T11:04:08Z scymtym: nij: even if somebody has a copy, it likely does not do everything you mentioned (and it works only in SBCL)
2021-04-22T11:05:42Z nij: Yeah.. but I think I understand the crux more. I need to think carefully again and make the minimal assumptions for that would work.
2021-04-22T11:06:28Z nij: E.g.. we need to modulo real-world (including randomness) factors, we need to assume all functions remember their source code and lexical env.. which are already nonrealistic.
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2021-04-22T12:29:19Z Josh_2: jeosol: I gave SBCL 8gb space, still froze up
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2021-04-22T12:33:49Z Nilby: If you have repitition in your data, you might try converting strings to symbols, and numbers parsed.
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2021-04-22T12:42:24Z jeosol: Josh_2: Oh really? Hmm. It is one-off task or something you'd have to do repeatedly. In my case, I had to extract several large 3d arrays (5 million elements) from the scattered data, so I got a file-stream to the file, and used do loop and cl-ppcre to match certain parts of the file and extra data afterwards
2021-04-22T12:42:40Z Josh_2: I'm basically just messing about with a code test my friend had
2021-04-22T12:42:50Z jeosol: Josh_2: if the data is well formatted, you can just extract it yourself.
2021-04-22T12:42:54Z jeosol: Oh I see, ok
2021-04-22T12:43:16Z Josh_2: it is well formatted data. At some point today I will mmap the file and just use cl-csv to parse each row individually
2021-04-22T12:44:30Z jeosol: yeah, I think the latter approach should work. For my case, I described, it was impossible to read the whole file so I opted to process it and extra the required data
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2021-04-22T13:15:46Z splittist: Josh_2: do you need the full set of extracted data 'in memory'? (I know we keep asking these questions.) If each line is independent (and, if it's CSV, it probably is) then snarfing the whole thing in one hit and keeping it as e.g. strings is awfully general, but probably not what you need, and maybe not what the java version is doing.
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2021-04-22T13:21:16Z Josh_2: splittist: i think it would be easier to have it all in memory, that way I can play around with it
2021-04-22T13:21:27Z Josh_2: well my friend failed to even load it into Java
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2021-04-22T13:23:40Z jmercouris: always preferable to work with CSVs as a stream
2021-04-22T13:23:44Z jmercouris: you don't know how long they will be
2021-04-22T13:23:57Z jmercouris: s/always/frequently
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2021-04-22T14:24:15Z aeth: Not directly Lisp related, but just a heads up for anyone who doesn't follow nerd news, any @umn.edu email could have been introducing vulnerabilities to your FOSS project for someone's research paper. They have been banned from the Linux kernel for doing so.
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2021-04-22T14:24:59Z aeth: The details seem to rely on C use-after-free bugs, but some CL implementations are written in C or C++ so that doesn't make this channel immune.
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2021-04-22T14:49:22Z Bike: given the paper is about linux, i don't see why they would also hit random other projects
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2021-04-22T17:01:01Z jdz: Supply chain attacks are all the rage now.
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2021-04-22T18:42:14Z sveit: hi. i was wondering about the semantics of dynamic-extent. is the following an allowed use of dynamic-extent? (let ((x (list 'a))) (let ((y x)) (declare (dynamic-extent y)) (rplacd y 'b)) x)
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2021-04-22T18:49:17Z copec: Does anyone see emacs become slow and laggy after doing a trace on some functions
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2021-04-22T19:03:56Z jackdaniel: emacs has a decent performance until its buffers exceed some relatively big size
2021-04-22T19:04:11Z jackdaniel: you may try to C-c o your REPL buffer
2021-04-22T19:04:20Z jackdaniel: sometimes it helps
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2021-04-22T19:11:28Z copec tries
2021-04-22T19:21:26Z Josh_2: I don't get this, I've given SBCL 8gb dynamic space, it gets about halfway through my dataset and just stops
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2021-04-22T19:22:14Z Shinmera: How big is the dataset?
2021-04-22T19:22:19Z Josh_2: 1.1gb
2021-04-22T19:22:23Z Shinmera: utf8 strings?
2021-04-22T19:22:38Z Josh_2: I'm not sure about that
2021-04-22T19:22:50Z Shinmera: loading that into the native UTF32 strings will already incur a x4 explosion of size about.
2021-04-22T19:22:53Z copec: What is it stopped on if you interrupt the thread?
2021-04-22T19:23:27Z Shinmera: so that's 4.4GB. Then add to that other copies and cruft and that there's space needed for multiple generations, and you might run into GC problems with that set.
2021-04-22T19:23:46Z Shinmera: even at 8GB heap.
2021-04-22T19:23:58Z Shinmera: try increasing it to 32GB or what, even if you don't have that much RAM.
2021-04-22T19:24:25Z Josh_2: Well I can load them as ascii
2021-04-22T19:28:22Z copec: Shinmera: Do you think the request packet is getting lost, so it is just sitting there waiting? https://unaen.org/pb/31h
2021-04-22T19:30:05Z Shinmera: hmm. hard to say.
2021-04-22T19:30:19Z copec: It stops at arbitrary domain names and just sits at the same point (SB-BSD-SOCKETS::CALL-WITH-SOCKET-ADDR
2021-04-22T19:31:52Z copec: I'm not sure if it is at a level that it is up to (proverbial) you to resend requests, or if that is in the ip stack
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2021-04-22T19:32:32Z Shinmera: Maybe, though the library should definitely guard against such problems.
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2021-04-22T19:56:48Z CL-ASHOK: I saw some questions in the log re rich text editor & websites with Lisp
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2021-04-22T19:57:38Z CL-ASHOK: For that individual (or anyone else), check out https://writer.math.dev as its a clean rich text editor (you can copy the code from GitHub) which will output to HTML
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2021-04-22T19:58:29Z CL-ASHOK: I'm in the process of building a static version of Wordpress via Lisp (basically have a database of content, then get lisp to generate all the html files, then host the html files statically), that could be a good alternative
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2021-04-22T19:59:24Z kagevf: CL-ASHOK: do you use nyxt? asking because you could use it to write browser level tests in lisp for your site
2021-04-22T19:59:55Z kagevf: I've been dabbling with that approach recently ... it's fun :)
2021-04-22T20:00:35Z CL-ASHOK: Didn't hear of it until you mentioned it, but looks pretty cool
2021-04-22T20:00:40Z CL-ASHOK: with emacs / vim bindings
2021-04-22T20:01:02Z CL-ASHOK: is it a browser or a command line?
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2021-04-22T20:01:59Z Shinmera: CL-ASHOK: there's coleslaw for static site generation
2021-04-22T20:03:57Z CL-ASHOK: @shinmera - nice, I hadn't heard of it. I just finished my version at work today :)  Very basic version via html-template and some loops
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2021-04-22T20:07:22Z kagevf: CL-ASHOK: it's a browser, but you can start a swank server on it and connect to it from emacs
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2021-04-22T20:10:19Z CL-ASHOK: kagevf nice, good to see new browsers coming up, otherwise Chrome & Safari are dominating too much. And Lisp gets a mention in it too :D
2021-04-22T20:10:29Z CL-ASHOK: I'll definitely check it out
2021-04-22T20:10:59Z kagevf: it's written in CL! :)
2021-04-22T20:11:26Z CL-ASHOK: :shock:
2021-04-22T20:11:35Z CL-ASHOK: That's awesome
2021-04-22T20:12:42Z Josh_2: Okay cool managed to parse all that data and I'm barely using any ram
2021-04-22T20:13:16Z Josh_2: using about 1.8gb I think
2021-04-22T20:13:22Z Josh_2: not bad for a 1.1gb file
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2021-04-22T20:24:33Z Josh_2: takes about 2 minutes 20 seconds to convert all 13 million lines
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2021-04-22T20:30:10Z CL-ASHOK: that's fast
2021-04-22T20:30:52Z Josh_2: Would be nice if I could dump the lisp image with all of that data in it
2021-04-22T20:30:57Z Josh_2: save me converting it over and over
2021-04-22T20:31:13Z CL-ASHOK: which persistent store you are using?
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2021-04-22T20:33:19Z Josh_2: none
2021-04-22T20:34:07Z Josh_2: It would be cool if SBCL could remember what it had in memory and you dump all of it, dump an image with 1.8gb of data in it
2021-04-22T20:35:09Z Krystof: does save-lisp-and-die not do what you want?
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2021-04-22T20:40:56Z Josh_2: how big is a short-float on SBCL?
2021-04-22T20:42:19Z mfiano: The same as a single-float
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2021-04-22T20:44:36Z Josh_2: save-lisp-and-die saves the bare minimum state in order to restore the image, it doesn't dump your ram etc
2021-04-22T20:44:45Z Krystof: um
2021-04-22T20:44:50Z Josh_2: although that would be a cool feature, using your lisp image as a database
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2021-04-22T20:45:05Z Krystof: it absolutely does dump the whole of the reachable lisp heap
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2021-04-22T20:46:33Z Josh_2: It does? *think*
2021-04-22T20:46:41Z Josh_2: maybe I should give it a try then
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2021-04-22T20:51:36Z jmercouris: yes it absolutely does
2021-04-22T20:51:45Z jmercouris: and I've used to to preload data into a lisp program
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2021-04-22T20:57:11Z CL-ASHOK: Josh_2 try https://github.com/hanshuebner/bknr-datastore
2021-04-22T20:57:20Z Josh_2: I must be doing something wrong, my binary is 50mb, not 1.6gb
2021-04-22T20:57:21Z CL-ASHOK: I haven't used it, but it got some positive feedback online
2021-04-22T20:57:41Z mfiano: Then you aren't holding onto that data and the GC is reclaiming it
2021-04-22T20:57:53Z mfiano: Reference anything you don't want free'd
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2021-04-22T21:10:28Z Josh_2: Well I dont know how to do that persistantly
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2021-04-22T21:13:38Z Josh_2: I tried referencing the variable in my toplevel function but that doesn't work, so idk what i'm supposed to do
2021-04-22T21:14:28Z kagevf: Josh_2: maybe try using defvar?
2021-04-22T21:14:34Z kagevf: to assign it
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2021-04-22T21:16:15Z CL-ASHOK: Shinmera Is there an easy way to reset all of portables settings so that I can just re-use my own .emacs file?
2021-04-22T21:17:10Z Shinmera: no
2021-04-22T21:18:08Z CL-ASHOK: Cool thanks
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2021-04-22T21:19:00Z Shinmera: You'll have to make do with putting customisations into config/user.el.
2021-04-22T21:19:40Z Josh_2: kagevf: I used defparameter when I tried
2021-04-22T21:19:44Z Josh_2: Anyway gotta dash
2021-04-22T21:21:46Z CL-ASHOK: Yep, that's what I'm doing. I must have made a mistake in my file somewhere, paredit is no longer working, so need to debug now
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2021-04-22T22:09:56Z srandon111: anybody on netbsd here?
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2021-04-22T22:18:10Z kagevf: if nfs is netbsd, then I guess I am
2021-04-22T22:18:51Z kagevf: ah, nope ... it's freebsd ... nm
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2021-04-22T22:22:02Z CL-ASHOK: Shinmera: Do you know which is the mode which causes all the files to shown in the mini buffer when searching for files C-x C-f? Can't seem to find which mode to disable
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2021-04-22T22:34:35Z copec: Shinmera: After doing some poking around with dns-client, it looks like dropped packets is exactly the problem, if a particular dns query udp packet gets dropped along the path, then dns-client just sits forever
2021-04-22T22:34:51Z copec: It doesn't show up until you are going through a list doing a lot of lookups
2021-04-22T22:35:13Z copec: Then you run in the occasional drop
2021-04-22T22:36:10Z copec: I solved it by using dnsmasq locally (macos box)
2021-04-22T22:41:17Z CL-ASHOK: Shinmera: Got it! Ignore my query
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2021-04-22T22:44:49Z copec: Shinmera: Are you the one and the same as https://shinmera.github.io/dns-client/index.html
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2021-04-22T22:48:05Z kagevf: what was the mode CL-ASHOK ?
2021-04-22T22:48:24Z CL-ASHOK: I think (Ido-mode -1)
2021-04-22T22:48:27Z CL-ASHOK: will do it
2021-04-22T22:48:49Z CL-ASHOK: If you open portacle, and go C-h m, you can see many of the minor modes and then disable them
2021-04-22T22:49:20Z kagevf: does portacle turn ido mode on by default?
2021-04-22T22:49:35Z CL-ASHOK: I also removed smex from some of the portacle settings files, unlikely that was the reason for removing the file suggestions, but perhaps (since I did at same time as Ido)
2021-04-22T22:49:39Z CL-ASHOK: yes I believe it does
2021-04-22T22:50:23Z CL-ASHOK: Now my issue is binding Capslock to Meta on Windows...if anybody knows how (I don't have Admin privileges on my work computer, so can't edit the registry)
2021-04-22T22:50:31Z kagevf: I haven't tried turning on ido mode yet, but will at some point ... heard it's pretty nice
2021-04-22T22:51:07Z CL-ASHOK: I think its pretty good - just my mind at work its hard to get into "full" emacs / lisp mode, so trying to make it as basic as possible
2021-04-22T22:51:42Z CL-ASHOK: since I'm multitasking between ms word / excel / email / emacs and other programs
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2021-04-22T22:54:58Z kagevf: CL-ASHOK: did a quick ddg ... it looks like for windows you have to use a 3rd party app to remap keys ... apparently can't even do it in wsl
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2021-04-22T22:56:38Z CL-ASHOK: kagevf: Could you send me the link? Wasn't able to find something when I searched
2021-04-22T22:58:21Z CL-ASHOK: Theres SharpKeys, but that also edits the registry, which I think will reset on my machine (according to my IT Helpdesk)
2021-04-22T23:00:08Z Nilby: CL-ASHOK: AutoHotKey
2021-04-22T23:00:19Z Nilby: If you can install it
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2021-04-22T23:01:07Z kagevf: CL-ASHOK: also "power tools" was another one
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2021-04-23T01:07:09Z Cthulhux: i use clavier+.
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2021-04-23T01:56:14Z jasom: Will the following always use an "e" for the exponent separator? (let ((*read-default-float-format* (type-of x))) (princ x))
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2021-04-23T01:57:07Z jasom: the specification seems to imply that, but doesn't outright say that.
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2021-04-23T02:10:01Z jeosol: aeth: I did see the news about umn.edu introducing the vulnerabilities - shocked as well
2021-04-23T02:12:23Z semz really doesn't get the outrage about this
2021-04-23T02:13:30Z semz: this is the kind of thing reviews should catch - other parties are very likely doing this already and they aren't polite enough to announce themselves
2021-04-23T02:13:57Z Bike: mostly i'm amazed that according to their paper, the IRB did not consider it human subject research
2021-04-23T02:13:59Z jasom: semz: as much as I'd like to discuss that, it's OT here
2021-04-23T02:14:04Z Bike: oh yeah, sorry
2021-04-23T02:14:12Z semz: eh, I suppose it is OT
2021-04-23T02:14:40Z aeth: #lispcafe
2021-04-23T02:14:42Z Bike: it's not like they're going around sniping projects, so there's basically no chance of it happening to clisp or something
2021-04-23T02:14:52Z aeth: eh
2021-04-23T02:15:11Z aeth: there's a 0% chance of it happening anywhere in a particular, but there's a nonzero chance of it happening somewhere else
2021-04-23T02:15:18Z aeth: so having that story spread helps
2021-04-23T02:17:45Z aeth: I guess what makes it particularly close to 0% for Lisp implementations is that most are quite old and this whole "cybersecurity" trend is relatively new
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2021-04-23T02:18:28Z aeth: It might affect Clasp if someone did something similar to LLVM, though.
2021-04-23T02:18:43Z Bike: clisp has a major open arbitrary code execution flaw
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2021-04-23T03:03:48Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-04-23T06:18:06Z Shinmera: copec: Yes
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2021-04-23T06:30:47Z jackdaniel:  /win 2
2021-04-23T06:32:19Z Shinmera: copec: https://github.com/Shinmera/dns-client/commit/73d2134b2a006d1d3343e2169897382ea606d15f
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2021-04-23T08:23:24Z shka_: hello
2021-04-23T08:23:38Z shka_: is there a portable way to hide style warning during compile?
2021-04-23T08:24:52Z shka_: other then *error-output* trickery
2021-04-23T08:29:30Z jackdaniel: shka_: how about wrapping the call to compile in handler-bind with ((style-warning (lambda (c) (muffle-warning)))) ;?
2021-04-23T08:34:53Z shka_: jackdaniel: sounds good, let me checking
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2021-04-23T08:37:25Z jdz: jackdaniel: Why the LAMBDA?  Can just provide #'muffle-warning, right?
2021-04-23T08:39:41Z shka_: jackdaniel: yes, this seems to do the trick, thank you
2021-04-23T08:39:49Z jackdaniel: sure, I suppose so
2021-04-23T08:39:55Z jackdaniel: just a habit
2021-04-23T08:39:59Z jackdaniel: jdz: ^
2021-04-23T08:40:26Z jackdaniel: shka_: sure
2021-04-23T08:40:57Z jackdaniel: "Tales of Excessive Lambda Programmer" by Jack London
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2021-04-23T08:42:58Z flip214: LAMBDA includes LAMB for a reason, right?
2021-04-23T08:43:18Z jdz: Da.
2021-04-23T08:44:04Z flip214: meaning milk, wool, food... so basically "serves every need" ;)
2021-04-23T08:48:47Z beach: It also lies down on Broadway.
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2021-04-23T09:02:45Z shka_: beach: i heard that there is a colony of slippermen there as well
2021-04-23T09:04:18Z beach: I have heard that as well.
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2021-04-23T09:11:28Z no-defun-allowed: Josh_2: Here you go, a rubbish newline counter that counts at about 8 GB/s apparently <https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2401>
2021-04-23T09:14:12Z no-defun-allowed: It's even twice as fast as wc -l. Not that I recommend you ever write a line counter like this.
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2021-04-23T09:52:43Z Nilby: no-defun-allowed: Wow! That's a very impressive display of insane speed. Is there some way we could harness this maddness in more normal code? Could you somehow make the compiler do this with my shitcode and some vauguely portable with-insanely-fast-simd-macros-for-dummies?
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2021-04-23T09:55:59Z no-defun-allowed: You'd need some vectorising compiler. I know GCC and LLVM can vectorise a fair few things automatically, but I haven't heard of any Lisp compiler do it. (Clasp apparently generates too messy code to get LLVM to vectorise right now, though I wonder how ECL fares.)
2021-04-23T09:57:41Z no-defun-allowed: The compiler needs to know something about SIMD so that it can put vectors in SIMD registers in the end, and I only know that SBCL does; though cl-simd used to work on ECL apparently.
2021-04-23T09:59:08Z flip214: no-defun-allowed: http://danluu.com/assembly-intrinsics/ talks about 16GB/sec, quite some time ago
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2021-04-23T10:01:42Z no-defun-allowed: What are they testing exactly?
2021-04-23T10:02:03Z no-defun-allowed: I do have to deal with virtual memory/mmap too in that test.
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2021-04-23T10:05:15Z Nilby: Even without fully automatic vectorization, the techniques you use here maybe could be harnessed with some wrappers. cl-simd looks a bit tricky to use. Maybe special vectorized versions of some of the sequence functions?
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2021-04-23T10:05:52Z no-defun-allowed: I think that "borrowing" the JEP 338 vector API could be the basis for a manual vectorisation library.
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2021-04-23T10:07:25Z no-defun-allowed: flip214: I see they are doing CRC32 computation, but they also test on a buffer that has already been loaded into memory.
2021-04-23T10:08:10Z no-defun-allowed: By mmaping I suppose we also include some MMU fudging in the runtime measured, even if we are just remapping pages in disk cache.
2021-04-23T10:12:06Z flip214: I guess that petalisp would be a good point for such simd things... << Shinmera
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2021-04-23T10:14:47Z Shinmera: hm?
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2021-04-23T10:15:57Z Shinmera: What do I have to do with this
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2021-04-23T10:17:42Z no-defun-allowed: I think you are thinking of heisig, and we did briefly discuss a vector library and having Petalisp use it.
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2021-04-23T10:21:15Z Nilby: I imagine a Lisp API could be a bit nice than the Java one, and implementation easier without a JVM and JIT getting in the way, but it does seem silly to have 1 core go this fast while there are 15 others idle.
2021-04-23T10:22:56Z no-defun-allowed: Er, SIMD instructions only run on one core. You need to use multiple threads to use multiple cores still.
2021-04-23T10:28:56Z Nilby: Right, I'm thinking about how to mix threading and vectorization. I know everyone seems to use GPUs for this now, but we don't currently seem to compile to GPUs.
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2021-04-23T10:30:31Z no-defun-allowed: You can compile (a subset of all possible) Petalisp programs to a GPU if you so desire.
2021-04-23T10:31:29Z no-defun-allowed: c.f https://github.com/theHamsta/petalisp-cuda and https://github.com/no-defun-allowed/oclcl-petalisp (though I have not used it and heisig changes Petalisp often so it likely bitrotted)
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2021-04-23T10:34:45Z flip214: ah, sorry
2021-04-23T10:35:12Z Nilby: no-defun-allowed: Thanks. I didn't know about those.
2021-04-23T10:35:58Z no-defun-allowed: Pro-tip: don't run software by people who write "🦎REDUCTIONS🦎ARE🦎GONE🦎🦎🦎" in a commit message.
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2021-04-23T10:41:26Z Nilby: Hmmm. O_o maybe I like lizard in my commits, and don't fear self-deprecating code.
2021-04-23T10:42:03Z contrapunctus: no-defun-allowed: "lizard reductions are gone"? What does that even mean?
2021-04-23T10:45:09Z no-defun-allowed: "Reductions are gone!" would be what I was thinking when reductions were removed from the intermediate representation, replaced with clever selection and mapping instructions instead.
2021-04-23T10:45:09Z no-defun-allowed: 🦎🦎🦎 is a lizard rave of course.
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2021-04-23T11:01:25Z heisig: Can some CS student in this channel please move to my university, so that I can hire him/her for working on SIMD stuff?
2021-04-23T11:01:49Z heisig: We actually have the money, but we can only spend it on our own students.
2021-04-23T11:02:12Z heisig: And I haven't found someone willing/capable enough to work on such a library.
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2021-04-23T11:03:37Z flip214: heisig: would physically moving be necessary? and how much money?   ;)
2021-04-23T11:06:19Z heisig: flip214: Yes, moving would be necessary (but I think also worthwhile for a student).  We have enough money to hire a student part-time for many months.  Probably not enough for you though :)
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2021-04-23T11:10:48Z no-defun-allowed: I would say I got oclcl-petalisp working again, but the code generator insists there are four inputs and not two somehow.
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2021-04-23T11:12:01Z no-defun-allowed: Ah, Petalisp now emits multiple loads per buffer sometimes, and we use instruction numbers to designate buffers.
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2021-04-23T11:18:31Z no-defun-allowed: Okay, now it works again. And the patch removed more lines than it added, so I figure something went right.
2021-04-23T11:23:11Z heisig is relieved
2021-04-23T11:26:36Z flip214: heisig: do I look that expensive or important? oh, too old perhaps ;)
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2021-04-23T13:24:21Z Shinmera is too busy making negative money making games to work for heisig
2021-04-23T13:30:06Z heisig: Shinmera: I will buy all your games, so in a sense you are already working for me :)
2021-04-23T13:30:26Z Shinmera: Hah
2021-04-23T13:30:37Z Shinmera: Thanks for the feedback, by the way!
2021-04-23T13:30:38Z ebrasca: Shinmera: Do you mean the 2d game?
2021-04-23T13:31:04Z Shinmera: ebrasca: I have several 2D games, but I mean https://kandria.com, yes.
2021-04-23T13:32:04Z ebrasca: I have read some of those articles , they are good!
2021-04-23T13:32:22Z l-n: wow, that is a nice project for sure... i was looking t it time ago on steam...
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2021-04-23T13:32:27Z l-n: at
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2021-04-23T13:32:41Z Josh_2: hi hi hi
2021-04-23T13:32:49Z heisig: Will there be modding support in Kandria?  Will I be able to connect via swank?
2021-04-23T13:32:49Z Shinmera: ebrasca: Thanks! :)
2021-04-23T13:33:05Z Josh_2: Is there a way I can turn a string like "250220" and an number in seconds like 28000 into a local-time timestamp?
2021-04-23T13:33:31Z Josh_2: I know I can turn the seconds into a timestamp, just not sure about the date
2021-04-23T13:33:47Z Shinmera: heisig: you already can! edit ~/.config/shirakumo/kandria/settings.lisp to have :debugging (:swank T)
2021-04-23T13:33:50Z Odin-: That's a very non-standard date format.
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2021-04-23T13:34:37Z Shinmera: heisig: Modding support (through a stable and defined API and loader mechanism) is something I would very much like to do, but it's very very low on the list, since it's a lot of effort and unfortunately not at all guaranteed it would attract more players.
2021-04-23T13:35:30Z heisig: Shinmera: I understand.  Swank is enough modding support for me :)
2021-04-23T13:35:45Z Odin-: I think some games specify APIs for internal development, and then expose them as modding options. That's not particularly relevant for tiny teams, though...
2021-04-23T13:36:38Z Shinmera: heisig: you can also launch the game with "swank" as argument and it'll just start wank and wait on an infinite loop for you to do whatever.
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2021-04-23T13:39:03Z Nilby: Just being able to connect to swank is alread 100x better than some game with lua. :)
2021-04-23T13:39:21Z heisig: Ooh, nice.  And Kandria has a layer for accessing the Steam API.  I should try Emacs->Swank->Kandria->Steam to chat with my friends.
2021-04-23T13:39:48Z Shinmera: Hah
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2021-04-23T13:40:12Z Shinmera: The SteamWorks api doesn't allow you to send messages to friends, iirc, only bring up the integrated overlay to do that.
2021-04-23T13:40:21Z Shinmera: probably for security reasons.
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2021-04-23T13:44:29Z heisig: "Every program has (at least) two purposes: the one for which it was written and another for which it wasn't." -- Alan Perlis on people using video games as a proxy for sending messages from their text editor.
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2021-04-23T14:48:33Z Josh_2: I managed to make my timestamp
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2021-04-23T15:05:51Z copec: Shinmera: Thanks! I was going to attempt to figure that out myself too.
2021-04-23T15:06:09Z copec: BTW I do (defmethod org.shirakumo.dns-client::decode-record-payload ((type (eql :NS)) octets start end) (org.shirakumo.dns-client::decode-host octets start 0))
2021-04-23T15:06:41Z copec: I can lookup all the payload types and make a list for you
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2021-04-23T15:09:51Z Shinmera: A PR would be cool!
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2021-04-23T15:57:22Z nij: [crossed posted on #emacs] Is there a way to set a symbol to a "place"? For example, (setq x (car y))? I don't recall seeing a place being a lisp object.. and if it isn't a lisp object, why don't we make it one?? It seems useful.
2021-04-23T15:57:48Z nij: Oh my example is stupidly wrong.. lemme see how to fix.
2021-04-23T15:57:55Z beach: Places are not first-class objects in Common Lisp.
2021-04-23T15:57:55Z Bike: there is no way to do that, no.
2021-04-23T15:57:57Z phoe: nij: a place is second-class in Common Lisp
2021-04-23T15:58:13Z nij: phoe: I'm aware of it.. but why :-( ?
2021-04-23T15:58:14Z phoe: you can, however, use lambdas to capture it
2021-04-23T15:58:31Z Bike: being able to keep efficient references to the interiors of objects makes some aspects of garbage collection much more annoying.
2021-04-23T15:58:53Z phoe: or (ql:quickload :cl-locatives)
2021-04-23T15:58:59Z nij: Bike:  is that a reason for me?
2021-04-23T15:59:03Z phoe: nij: yes
2021-04-23T15:59:45Z nij: But CL is hackable. If I want to hack it so that it has first-class places, is that possible?
2021-04-23T16:00:01Z phoe: CL is *easily* hackable to a point
2021-04-23T16:00:11Z Bike: depends. like phoe said, you can do it with closures pretty easily. but that's not enormously efficient.
2021-04-23T16:00:14Z phoe: and adding first-class locatives (or rather, re-adding them) is possible
2021-04-23T16:00:25Z phoe: but requires you to either hack the GC
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2021-04-23T16:00:32Z nij: ohohhh im reading cl-locatives manual
2021-04-23T16:00:35Z phoe: ...or, you know, just use lambdas as I said
2021-04-23T16:00:50Z nij: How to use lambdas to achieve?
2021-04-23T16:01:06Z phoe: (let (x) (list (lambda () x) (lambda (y) (setf x y))))
2021-04-23T16:01:16Z phoe: here, I just captured X in a pair of accessors
2021-04-23T16:01:18Z phoe: a reader and a writer
2021-04-23T16:01:34Z phoe: you can funcall the first to read the value, and you can funcall the second with a new object to write the value
2021-04-23T16:01:52Z phoe: that's all, those two lambdas capture the place rather nicely
2021-04-23T16:02:28Z phoe: you can even change this to be a single function, (lambda (&optional (y nil yp)) (if yp x (setf x y)))
2021-04-23T16:02:41Z phoe: when called with zero args it will return the value, when called with one arg it will set the value
2021-04-23T16:04:05Z nij: Is this how cl-locative is implemented?
2021-04-23T16:04:38Z phoe: t
2021-04-23T16:04:57Z phoe: except it has its custom LOCATIVE structure that wraps the reader and writer lambdas
2021-04-23T16:05:24Z nij: hmmm very interesting!
2021-04-23T16:05:57Z phoe: stylewarning: cl-locatives on quicklisp-projects seems to have an ancient repo url on bitbucket, do you have any newer one?
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2021-04-23T16:07:33Z nij: Hmm.. but actually what I'm hoping for is to (setq y 3).. and this should change the internal of x.
2021-04-23T16:07:59Z phoe: what's y?
2021-04-23T16:08:05Z Bike: once you set up these functions you can put them in a structure or whatever, pass that around, and then write a LOCATION place (or something) to do it
2021-04-23T16:08:34Z nij: Bike yes
2021-04-23T16:08:37Z Bike: like (let ((p (locative (car y)))) (setf (dereference p) 3))
2021-04-23T16:08:49Z Bike: this is pretty much how the cl-locatives library works, according to the library
2021-04-23T16:09:17Z Bike: if you really want it to be (setf y 3) instead, you could use a symbol macro
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2021-04-23T16:18:31Z nij: I see. :) Thanks!
2021-04-23T16:18:40Z nij: I will read more about locatives.. sound like cool stuff.
2021-04-23T16:19:35Z nij: Btw, if I have a macro m, how to I get (list (m a) (m b) (m c)) by (some-mapcar-for-macros m (list a b c))?
2021-04-23T16:20:13Z Bike: you don't. macros operate on source code, not values.
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2021-04-23T16:20:56Z Bike: so they can't be applied to elements of a list like a function can.
2021-04-23T16:21:30Z Bike: why do you want to do that?
2021-04-23T16:21:52Z nij: https://bpa.st/23DQ
2021-04-23T16:22:04Z nij: It would be nicer if I can have a one-liner for the last four lines.
2021-04-23T16:22:30Z nij: (Sorry it's elisp.. but I'm also interested in how you do that in CL.)
2021-04-23T16:22:38Z nij: Genuinely speaking.
2021-04-23T16:22:49Z Bike: if the arguments are fixed like that you can just define another macro
2021-04-23T16:23:04Z nij: :-( that'd be longer than 4 lines xD
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2021-04-23T16:23:17Z Bike: (defmacro dired-action/defoperation (&rest operations) `(progn ,@(loop for op in operations collect `(dired-action/defoperation ,op))))
2021-04-23T16:23:23Z nij: I don't know.. I feel like this is something that's used much? Maybe there's a defacto macro for it already?
2021-04-23T16:23:29Z Bike: er, should be defmacro dired-action/defoperations
2021-04-23T16:23:39Z nij: OH!
2021-04-23T16:24:13Z Bike: usually macro syntax is disparate enough that a general operator might not work so well
2021-04-23T16:24:16Z Bike: but you could do, uh
2021-04-23T16:24:34Z Bike: (defmacro macromap (op &rest args) `(progn ,@(loop for arg in args collect `(,op ,arg))))
2021-04-23T16:24:44Z Bike: (macromap dired-action/defoperation cut copy soft-link-abs soft-link-rel)
2021-04-23T16:24:49Z nij: I wonder if a mundane lang, like python, can do this so elegantly..
2021-04-23T16:24:52Z nij: Lisp is great.
2021-04-23T16:25:12Z nij: I like the second idea more. More transparent.
2021-04-23T16:25:23Z nij: I'm just surprised that macromap hasn't existed yet.
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2021-04-23T16:25:40Z Bike: well, this only works for macros that take exactly one parameter
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2021-04-23T16:26:13Z nij: In macromap I can also slice args
2021-04-23T16:26:25Z nij: so the input can be lists of arbitrarily many parameters.
2021-04-23T16:26:49Z Bike: sure
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2021-04-23T16:27:56Z nij: Btw, this is the first macro in my life I've written. It's newbie-ish, but it works right away. Thank you very much for all supports and kindness, #lisp. :) :) :) I'll remember today.
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2021-04-23T19:27:52Z daphnis: is it possible to call a cl function from elisp via sly?
2021-04-23T19:29:11Z nij: yes. iirc.. lemme see which func is that
2021-04-23T19:29:16Z daphnis: oh, there seems to be swank::eval-in-emacs
2021-04-23T19:29:27Z nij: sly-eval?
2021-04-23T19:30:10Z daphnis: i don't have #'sly-eval
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2021-04-23T19:33:40Z nij: On my side it says it's from sly.el..
2021-04-23T19:33:54Z nij: not sure why you don't have that.. @_@
2021-04-23T19:34:05Z nij: if you run `M-x sly`.. does the function get loaded?
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2021-04-23T19:35:36Z daphnis: nij, no, i have sly-eval-defun, -region, -buffer, but not sly-eval
2021-04-23T19:36:04Z nij: daphnis - oh you mean commands.
2021-04-23T19:36:18Z nij: sly-eval isn't a command, but it's a function
2021-04-23T19:36:53Z nij: First, connect your emacs to a sly by `M-x sly`.
2021-04-23T19:36:54Z daphnis: nij, ah, sorry
2021-04-23T19:37:02Z nij: And then, evaluate this in _EMACS_
2021-04-23T19:37:07Z nij: (sly-eval (+ 1 1))
2021-04-23T19:37:21Z nij: the sexp (+ 1 1) will be passed into sly, evaluated, and returned (2) to emacs
2021-04-23T19:38:37Z daphnis: works.  thanks!
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2021-04-23T19:48:44Z daphnis: still, if i do (defun foo () 'bar) at the repl, i can't call that by (sly-eval (foo))
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2021-04-23T19:55:35Z theothornhill: daphnis: If you define the function in cl-user, you can call it with "(sly-eval '(cl-user::foo))"
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2021-04-23T19:59:20Z nij: And if you have (defvar *x* 123) at the repl, to call it from emacs, you do `(sly-eval 'cl-user::x)`
2021-04-23T20:00:23Z nij: Oh.. so actually (sly-eval (+ 1 1)) is confusing! It will call #'+ in the sly-io-package.
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2021-04-23T20:00:47Z nij: Instead, if you want "normal" (+ 1 1).. you need to call (sly-eval '(cl-user::+ 1 1))
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2021-04-23T20:02:51Z daphnis: thank you.  somehow the docstring led me to think (sly-eval (foo) :cl-user)
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2021-04-23T20:06:44Z theothornhill: Thankfully I stopped reading the docs after "Evaluate SEXP...". It is indeed confusing, so sometimes laziness helps :P
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2021-04-23T20:07:40Z nij: It's very confusing indeed!
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2021-04-23T20:09:38Z _death: nij: (sly-eval (+ 1 1)) will evaluate (+ 1 1) in emacs, and pass 2 to cl and back
2021-04-23T20:09:56Z theothornhill: yeah
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2021-04-23T20:38:27Z CL-ASHOK: Quick Qn - how to disable cache in Hunchentoot. Documentation says to use "no-cache" but I have no idea how to
2021-04-23T20:39:14Z CL-ASHOK: Currently I'm doing: (defvar *ssg-web-server* (hunchentoot:start
2021-04-23T20:39:15Z CL-ASHOK:      (make-instance 'hunchentoot:easy-acceptor
2021-04-23T20:39:15Z CL-ASHOK:       :address "127.0.0.1"
2021-04-23T20:39:16Z CL-ASHOK:       :port 4242
2021-04-23T20:39:16Z CL-ASHOK:       :document-root #p"www_/"
2021-04-23T20:39:17Z CL-ASHOK:       :persistent-connections-p t
2021-04-23T20:39:17Z CL-ASHOK:       :read-timeout 3.0
2021-04-23T20:39:18Z CL-ASHOK:       :write-timeout 3.0
2021-04-23T20:39:18Z CL-ASHOK:       :access-log-destination nil
2021-04-23T20:39:19Z CL-ASHOK:       :message-log-destination nil)))
2021-04-23T20:39:30Z Alfr: CL-ASHOK, use a pastebin.
2021-04-23T20:39:51Z _death: CL-ASHOK: hunchentoot:no-cache is a function that you can call in your handler
2021-04-23T20:41:03Z nij: _death: Oh indeed.. sorry for that :-(
2021-04-23T20:41:26Z CL-ASHOK: Thanks _death . Sorry Alfr, will do so in the future
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2021-04-23T21:01:35Z opcode: hey all if I have two lists (a b c d) and (1 2 3 4) and I want to merge them into a plist e.g. (a 1 b 2 c 3 d 4), can i do that with map
2021-04-23T21:02:16Z opcode: or perhaps a better question is what's the best way to accomplish that?
2021-04-23T21:02:30Z Shinmera: (loop for a in first for b in second collect a collect b)
2021-04-23T21:03:14Z opcode: oh.  that's much simpler than my loop fuckery.  thanks
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2021-04-23T21:09:44Z _death: or (mapcan #'list list-1 list-2)
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2021-04-23T21:15:45Z opcode: _death: thanks, I was trying and failing with map and mapcar
2021-04-23T21:15:52Z opcode: is there an easy way to remember which does what
2021-04-23T21:15:58Z kagevf: makes sense that it let's you disable per handler instead of for the whole server
2021-04-23T21:16:04Z _death: use them alot :)
2021-04-23T21:16:42Z opcode: :P
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2021-04-23T21:23:18Z stylewarning: CAN for conCATenate; but don’t confuse with MAPCON :)))
2021-04-23T21:23:35Z nij: ConcAteNate
2021-04-23T21:23:46Z stylewarning: also MAPCAN is destructive. Lots of footguns
2021-04-23T21:24:46Z stylewarning: Shinmera: would MADVISE be a welcome part of MMAP?
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2021-04-23T21:29:13Z _death: opcode: in that particular case, you could define a PROPLIS function, which would be a close friend to PAIRLIS
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2021-04-23T21:34:41Z nij: Some questions about cl-locative.. https://bpa.st/VKBA
2021-04-23T21:35:37Z nij: In get-setf-expansion, there's an parameter ENV. From CLHS it seems that I can feed NIL or any other "environment object". But I fail to see other examples of an environmental object. Any quick examples?
2021-04-23T21:37:25Z Shinmera: stylewarning: How's platform support for that?
2021-04-23T21:37:46Z Shinmera: Seems linux specific.
2021-04-23T21:38:00Z Shinmera: You'd have to do legwork and see if there's similar stuff on Win32 and Darwin, in the very least.
2021-04-23T21:38:10Z _death: nij: usually this function is called by a macro.. a macro can take an &environment parameter
2021-04-23T21:38:57Z _death: nij: the example in CLHS actually shows that
2021-04-23T21:38:58Z MichaelRaskin: nij: and this parameter can be passed to macroexpand-1
2021-04-23T21:39:16Z MichaelRaskin: (and similar functions)
2021-04-23T21:39:41Z _death: nij: ah, guess I missed "other"
2021-04-23T21:40:04Z MichaelRaskin: Environment objects are very implementation specific (and not guaranteed to be or not be of any specific type; they are plain lists in some cases)
2021-04-23T21:40:42Z MichaelRaskin: … and all the functions for inspecting them have been dropped from the standard
2021-04-23T21:40:53Z stylewarning: Shinmera: I figured since it’s “advice” for perf optimization it could just be ignored where unsupported.
2021-04-23T21:40:56Z _death: some implementations provide some cltl2 operators that can take it as well
2021-04-23T21:41:24Z Shinmera: stylewarning: It'll have to be, but I'd still want  you to see if there's similar stuff.
2021-04-23T21:41:32Z stylewarning: Of course, that’s reasonable
2021-04-23T21:41:55Z nij: Oh I see! So you just (defmacro ... (.. &env...)).
2021-04-23T21:42:07Z nij: But how do you "construct" an environment object by hand?
2021-04-23T21:42:15Z _death: nij: you don't
2021-04-23T21:42:40Z nij: I'm just curious :) possible to construct?
2021-04-23T21:42:57Z MichaelRaskin: Well, inside the macro expansion code you will have one!
2021-04-23T21:42:58Z _death: there's a cltl2 operator to augment it
2021-04-23T21:43:16Z MichaelRaskin: (If a macro is called inside a non-trivial lexical environment, at least)
2021-04-23T21:43:56Z _death: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node102.html#SECTION001250000000000000000
2021-04-23T21:45:55Z nij: How is an env object coded? Is it just a hash table or an alist?
2021-04-23T21:47:15Z MichaelRaskin: Differently on different implementations
2021-04-23T21:47:20Z _death: it's implementation-specific.. you can try inspecting it in the macro
2021-04-23T21:47:32Z MichaelRaskin: Sometimes a list, sometimes an object
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2021-04-23T21:48:53Z nij: Ah.. i see! Thanks.
2021-04-23T21:49:00Z no-defun-allowed: stylewarning: I've tried madvise a few times but it didn't seem to make anything faster.
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2021-04-23T22:01:03Z gigamonkey: Is Xach going with the Google strategy of eternal beta for Quicklisp or am I looking in the wrong place for the latest hotness?
2021-04-23T22:03:34Z gigamonkey: (I'm looking at https://www.quicklisp.org which redirects to https://www.quicklisp.org/beta, fwiw.
2021-04-23T22:04:18Z MichaelRaskin: Just look at the version timestamps to convince yourself this _is_ latest
2021-04-23T22:04:19Z no-defun-allowed: I think the former.
2021-04-23T22:04:59Z gigamonkey: I've only been gone for like a decade or so, dunno why I'd have expected it to be out of beta. ;-)
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2021-04-23T22:09:51Z edgar-rft: quicklisp should upgrade and become a dominant alpha
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2021-04-23T23:47:21Z nij: Hello! Is there a way to fully describe a package in CL? Preferably, I'd like to see almost all information presented when it's defined by defpackage.
2021-04-23T23:47:58Z nij: In particular, not only do I hope to see what symbol is inherited, I also hope to see where a symbol is inherited from.
2021-04-23T23:50:34Z Bike: i don't think there's an overall function. find-symbol will tell you whether a symbol is inherited; you can loop over a package's symbols looking at that.
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2021-04-23T23:51:17Z Bike: to determine where a symbol is inherited from you would iterate over the package-use-list. any packages that have that symbol as external (and there can be more than one!) will be where that symbol is inherited from
2021-04-23T23:52:39Z Bike: if you just mean the symbol's home package, that's easier to get
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2021-04-24T00:10:26Z nij: hmm i see, thanks!
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2021-04-24T00:54:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: gigamonkey: beta is the new v1.0 :)
2021-04-24T00:54:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: gigamonkey: thanks for PCL, btw, I read it five years ago, and it's really changed how I think about programming
2021-04-24T00:55:35Z nij: Thanks too! I'm reading chapter 21 :-) Tremendously useful!
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2021-04-24T01:04:27Z nij: Literally, I was having some headache when reading [1] a few hours ago.. and then I screamed thank-god while I see [2]. [1: http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/iiip/doc/CommonLISP/HyperSpec/Body/mac_defpackage.html] [2. http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/programming-in-the-large-packages-and-symbols.html]
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2021-04-24T01:05:34Z dieggsy: is there like a pretty standard tool for documentation search ?
2021-04-24T01:05:42Z dieggsy: preferrably command-line or in-repl
2021-04-24T01:05:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: what sort of search?
2021-04-24T01:06:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: apropos lets you search by partial symbol names
2021-04-24T01:06:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: describe will show anything the lisp system knows about a given object
2021-04-24T01:06:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, I don't know of any sort of "full-text-search" system for documentation strings
2021-04-24T01:06:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: Maybe someone could use Montezuma to invent one :)
2021-04-24T01:06:55Z dieggsy: Oh, fascinating lol. i didn't know about describe
2021-04-24T01:07:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: There's also INSPECT, but the slime inspector is usually better
2021-04-24T01:07:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: ( C-c I )
2021-04-24T01:07:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: Also TRACE and jump-to-definition are great for finding information ;)
2021-04-24T01:08:02Z stylewarning: gigamonkey: https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/gpvvrf/why_is_quicklisp_still_in_beta_when_its_been/
2021-04-24T01:08:09Z stylewarning: some links there
2021-04-24T01:09:21Z nij: xach: "Because it’s got more stuff to be done and I haven’t done it yet."
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2021-04-24T01:11:37Z dieggsy: fiddlerwoaroof: cheers, thanks
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2021-04-24T01:32:21Z Josh_2: okay I did most of that code test in CL, pretty sweet
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2021-04-24T01:35:03Z Josh_2: seems to work well
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2021-04-24T02:06:13Z nij: While inspecting #'+, sly says it's a function. However, it works on integers and complex numbers.. which lead me think that it should be a method. Did I misunderstand anything?
2021-04-24T02:06:49Z no-defun-allowed: No, + is a function still. And a generic function (not a method) is still a function.
2021-04-24T02:07:41Z no-defun-allowed: The implementation of + might use a generic function (SICL bottoms out at a BINARY-ADD) but generic dispatch would not be pleasant for &rest arguments.
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2021-04-24T02:08:26Z nij: @_@
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2021-04-24T02:50:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've always wondered why CLOS doesn't have arity-based dispatch
2021-04-24T02:54:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: The pattern you find in Prolog and Clojure where the 1-argument version of a function supplies a sensible default to the 2-arugment version of the same function seems somewhat more elegant than having like FOO and FOO-USING-CLASS
2021-04-24T02:55:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: For one thing, you have fewer chances to pick a bad name
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2021-04-24T02:59:11Z charles`: Good morning everyone
2021-04-24T03:01:22Z nij: gm charles`
2021-04-24T03:02:57Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-04-24T03:10:06Z charles`: I can't wait for European Lisp Symposium in a few weeks
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2021-04-24T03:26:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: morning beach!
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2021-04-24T03:38:10Z nij: Hello! I might be asking this question too early, but it's just a prospect. If I want to write a program for some low level chips, would CL be useful in that case? Or I'd have to go to pretty low level lang like C?
2021-04-24T03:39:02Z Bike: like a microcontroller?
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2021-04-24T03:39:41Z nij: Don't really know the technical terms.. but I assume so.
2021-04-24T03:40:07Z nij: No mouse, no keyboard, no screen.. just something there that starts spinning once turned on.
2021-04-24T03:40:10Z no-defun-allowed: What is a microcontroller defined to be these days? I swear I've seen a few with megabytes of memory and 32-bit ARM chips, so it might be surprisingly not stupid to try to program one in CL.
2021-04-24T03:40:44Z moon-child: fiddlerwoaroof: I mean, there are optional and key parameters
2021-04-24T03:40:52Z nij: Was size the main issue for people to code CL on them, back in the days?
2021-04-24T03:40:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: moon-child: those don't work for gf dispatch, though
2021-04-24T03:42:00Z moon-child: fiddlerwoaroof: I think it makes more sense when you consider it contextually: multiple dynamic dispatch was a generalization of single dynamic dispatch, which is where a type contains a table of functions, and you call the function associated with the type of some object; dispatching the function based on the type of the object
2021-04-24T03:42:10Z moon-child: in multiple dynamic dispatch, you dispatch based on the type of multiple of the objects
2021-04-24T03:42:16Z no-defun-allowed: It's more that you want a definition like (defun + (&rest numbers) (reduce #'binary-+ numbers :initial-value 0))
2021-04-24T03:44:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: maybe
2021-04-24T03:44:03Z moon-child: why would that be affected by arity-based dispatch?
2021-04-24T03:44:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't really understand the relevance?
2021-04-24T03:44:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: My point is I can't right a function that takes 2 and 3 arguments and is able to dispatch based on the number of arguments
2021-04-24T03:44:42Z no-defun-allowed: So you'd want to put the dispatch in BINARY-+ I suppose.
2021-04-24T03:44:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: e.g. (do-whatever a) and (do-whatever a b)
2021-04-24T03:45:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's not impossible to make this work: it's trivial using Clojure or Prolog
2021-04-24T03:45:49Z no-defun-allowed: Or you have the cases (+) ⇒ 0, (+ a . rest) ⇒ (binary-+ a (apply #'+ rest)) I suppose.
2021-04-24T03:46:07Z Bike: yeah, i can't think of any reason it couldn't be done, though it might get a little funky with keyword arguments
2021-04-24T03:46:08Z moon-child: sounds like hygienic macros
2021-04-24T03:46:18Z Bike: fiddler is clearly not talking about variable arity functions like +
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2021-04-24T03:46:39Z Bike: but just having distinct functions for different lambda lists
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2021-04-24T04:12:47Z ChoHag: nij: Only in the sense that a smaller chip requires more frequent garbage collection, and garbage collection got a bad rap back then which it largely deserved.
2021-04-24T04:13:35Z ChoHag: These days even a tiny microcontroller is secretly a supercomputer and even bad GC would be acceptable.
2021-04-24T04:19:54Z no-defun-allowed: Usually you try not to allocate when doing manual memory management too.
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2021-04-24T04:21:33Z Bike: i guess you could implement arity dispatch pretty easily if you only care about required arguments. with compiler macros and stack allocated &rest arguments it could be reasonably efficient
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2021-04-24T04:39:54Z charles`: Is there a database independent DAO library?
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2021-04-24T05:02:43Z Nilby: charles`: I don't know how an DAO is different than an ORM, but there are quite a lot here: https://www.cliki.net/Database . I've used cl-sql in production for many years.
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2021-04-24T05:12:24Z charles`: I'm not sure if this is the accepted definition, but I think orm is just a programming language communicating with a database, and a dao is an abstraction on top of orm that is basically a 1 to 1 mapping of clos to a database table
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2021-04-24T05:23:30Z Nilby: I've used CLOS objects to represent tables and the ORM to manipulate, and I didn't find I needed much more than normal generic functions and methods.
2021-04-24T05:26:07Z Nilby: I think the way CL's methods are somewhat independent of classes makes it easier.
2021-04-24T05:26:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: Nilby: I think CLOS's main advantage is that it's not primarily about defining classes
2021-04-24T05:27:43Z Nilby: fiddlerwoaroof: Yes. Among many other awesome advantages.
2021-04-24T05:27:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think that's really the fundamental difference of CLOS
2021-04-24T05:28:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's about protocols defined in terms of generic functions
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2021-04-24T05:28:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: You can go quite a ways only using pre-defined classes and writing your own protocols
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2021-04-24T05:31:27Z Nilby: I my case you can go too far and make CLOS objects do something dumb like act like smalltalk/javascript.
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2021-04-24T05:34:07Z no-defun-allowed: How's that dumb?
2021-04-24T05:35:49Z Nilby: I don't know. It just doesn't feel as clean and magic as pure CLOS objects.
2021-04-24T05:36:49Z Nilby: But it's brilliant that it's possible.
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2021-04-24T05:38:09Z beach: Nilby: The term "CLOS object" is meaningless.  Every Common Lisp object is an instance of some class and all classes are part of CLOS.
2021-04-24T05:39:49Z no-defun-allowed: In Smalltalk you can at least subclass the Integer class.
2021-04-24T05:40:14Z Nilby: It is meaningful when trying to make a distinction in style between prototyped objects.
2021-04-24T05:40:33Z no-defun-allowed: Not really, no.
2021-04-24T05:41:20Z no-defun-allowed: If you were saying the Smalltalk object system didn't feel as clean as CLOS does, then that would have meaning.
2021-04-24T05:41:22Z Nilby: beach: But I know it's not technically correct, and I'm glad as a CL designer you're great at being technically correct.
2021-04-24T05:41:24Z beach: Nilby: Most people, when they use that term mean either "standard object" or "instance of a standard class".
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2021-04-24T05:44:34Z Nilby: I was meaning how made some silly prototype/cloning things on top of normal CLOS style, which is still an object, but isn't really the normal CL style.
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2021-04-24T10:47:40Z cage_: hi, i would like to add mktemps(3) to osicat even if non standard, any people here that works on that project that would share your opinions/suggestions about adding this function?
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2021-04-24T11:08:14Z cage_: here is the patch: https://github.com/osicat/osicat/pull/41
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2021-04-24T11:53:03Z phoe: Is there a list of all keywords defined by/used in ANSI CL?
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2021-04-24T11:55:58Z dieggsy: is there an OpenCV library currently that works with quicklisp?
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2021-04-24T12:23:41Z phoe: Is the function #'(SETF READTABLE-CASE) required to be defined? (AFAIR not, but I'd like to consult other minds as well)
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2021-04-24T12:30:56Z Shinmera: iirc anything that's specified as a place may be implemented through a setf expander.
2021-04-24T12:31:34Z phoe: that's what I recall, too
2021-04-24T12:31:54Z _death: clhs 5.1.1.2
2021-04-24T12:31:54Z specbot: Setf Expansions: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/05_aab.htm
2021-04-24T12:32:09Z phoe: _death: thanks
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2021-04-24T12:40:56Z nij: Hello! Sometimes while developing, lisp just crashes and has no chance telling me what's wrong. Especially when I'm not interacting via emacs. Is there a way to force logging any signals?
2021-04-24T12:41:33Z beach: nij: There should be a reason in the *inferior-lisp* buffer.
2021-04-24T12:42:53Z nij: Only if I'm using emacs?
2021-04-24T12:43:17Z nij: I can use a swank/slynk server to do so.. but just wonder if I can find log in another way.
2021-04-24T12:43:20Z phoe: nij: if you are not using emacs, use the terminal in which lisp is launched instead of *inferior-lisp*
2021-04-24T12:43:26Z Shinmera: what are you doing that crashes it? Munging foreign memory?
2021-04-24T12:43:36Z nij: StumpWM
2021-04-24T12:43:43Z phoe: but basically, stdout/stderr are what I would want to see in such a case
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2021-04-24T12:44:13Z nij: Oh.. maybe the stdout/stderr is logged by X? That could be..
2021-04-24T12:44:14Z phoe: figure out how to capture those (maybe they already are captured by your OS in some way? systemd logs?)
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2021-04-24T12:49:23Z cage_: nij, IIRC you could look at .xsession-errors
2021-04-24T12:50:48Z nij: I'm trying to find where it is. Thanks :)
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2021-04-24T12:59:13Z nij: cage_: There's no .xsession-errors in my machine. Have tried `sudo find / -type f -name "*xsession-errors*"`. There's another Xorg log in ~/.local/share, but it doesn't say anything about stumpwm.
2021-04-24T12:59:45Z nij: I guess if stumpwm developers didn't force it to log, then nothing is logged? Can I tune sbcl so that any conditions got logged?
2021-04-24T13:01:00Z cage_: nij, strange, i have this file in my home and it is full of lisp errors
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2021-04-24T13:01:27Z cage_: i do not know if this depends from the way my xserver is configured thoug
2021-04-24T13:02:17Z cage_: do you have a .xsession file in your home?
2021-04-24T13:02:28Z VincentVega: Hi! Is there any library out there that, given a description of a graph (like a bar graph, or a function), would produce instructions to draw that graph? Basically I am looking for a graphical-backend-agnostic plotting library - I want to do the rendering part myself. Hopefully, it would be fully CL, but if not, please share as well : )
2021-04-24T13:03:57Z cage_: VincentVega, what about generating an svg, postscript or why not? even an xfig file?
2021-04-24T13:05:07Z beach: cage_: That doesn't sound like what is asked for, but what do I know.
2021-04-24T13:05:42Z cage_: sorry
2021-04-24T13:06:15Z VincentVega: cage_: I need it in real time, so, hopefully, I won't have to be reading anything from disk or calling an external executable. By "instructions" I meant really any description, I don't mind svg or anything.
2021-04-24T13:06:39Z _death: take the primitive drawing forms and (defmacro emit (form) `(push ',form *instructions*)) (defun get-instructions () (reverse *instructions*))
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2021-04-24T13:08:48Z _death: well, almost.. maybe define-emitting-function :)
2021-04-24T13:10:21Z VincentVega: _death: Not sure I am following you - but the problem at this point for me is to find something that can produce the instructions / drawing data, not the conversion part (yet).
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2021-04-24T13:11:45Z alanz: VincentVega, what about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOT_%28graph_description_language%29
2021-04-24T13:12:42Z VincentVega: BTW something that can do this incrementally would be a huge plus
2021-04-24T13:14:24Z VincentVega: alanz: dot is not general enough for my purposes. I am looking for something that can do all kinds of plots (sorry, my use of "graph" was a bit ambiguous)
2021-04-24T13:14:49Z alanz: what about d3? https://www.d3-graph-gallery.com/
2021-04-24T13:15:03Z alanz: it has an API, I think
2021-04-24T13:16:14Z VincentVega: alanz: Hmm, I wonder if it can function as a daemon. Not crazy about JS, but I will take a look, thanks!
2021-04-24T13:17:20Z alanz: well, if it has a a description language underneath it might work.
2021-04-24T13:19:03Z jdz: VincentVega: I might also be missing something, but it seems to me that CLIM output-records are such things.  Output captured on an output-recording-stream may be replayed somewhere else.
2021-04-24T13:20:02Z jdz: So if there is a library that draws stuff using CLIM, you'd get your drawing instructions.
2021-04-24T13:20:14Z VincentVega: Anyone had any experience with scigraph (comes with McClim)?
2021-04-24T13:22:00Z VincentVega: alanz: I would really prefer this to be a fully CL solution, at worst running as a binary but not even that
2021-04-24T13:22:36Z nij: cage_ i only have `.Xauthority` in my home
2021-04-24T13:22:37Z alanz: ok, no problem
2021-04-24T13:22:51Z nij: do you use stumpwm as well?
2021-04-24T13:23:07Z cage_: nij, yes
2021-04-24T13:23:30Z cage_: i have a simple .xsession file that calls the stumpwm executable
2021-04-24T13:23:51Z VincentVega: jdz: Sounds interesting. I am not going to be using Clim for this though, thanks for the idea though!
2021-04-24T13:23:58Z nij: I have .xinitrc for that. And I `startx` in tty.
2021-04-24T13:24:02Z _death: VincentVega: I suggested a way to make a library that draws into a library that produces instructions.. a kind of TRACE-like facility
2021-04-24T13:24:33Z nij: How do you invoke X, cage_?
2021-04-24T13:24:44Z VincentVega: _death: ah, I see, alright.
2021-04-24T13:25:07Z cage_: nij this is fun i have an empty .xinitrc file :)
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2021-04-24T13:25:21Z cage_: nij i use XDM to start the xserver
2021-04-24T13:25:25Z nij: You might be using other methods..
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2021-04-24T13:25:26Z nij: right!
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2021-04-24T13:25:47Z nij: I see. Then that's indeed my problem with X configuration. Not about #lisp then.
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2021-04-24T13:26:31Z nij: Before fixing that, I'd just use a slynk server to debug. Thank you for your info cage_ :D!
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2021-04-24T13:26:50Z cage_: nij,  you're welcome!
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2021-04-24T13:36:42Z VincentVega: Ah, I guess I will go with smth from here (or multiple things) https://www.cliki.net/plotting
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2021-04-24T13:40:01Z _death: it shouldn't be difficult to write or port a simple plotting library like https://github.com/kristapsdz/kplot/
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2021-04-24T13:41:24Z cage_: there is the efforts from this person: https://peterlane.netlify.app/ltk-plotchart/
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2021-04-24T13:43:41Z VincentVega: Thanks for the links, but hopefully I can get away without an external dependency, looking at https://www.cliki.net/poly-pen rn
2021-04-24T13:45:02Z cage_: VincentVega, poly-pen seems nice!
2021-04-24T13:45:05Z Josh_2: Ello
2021-04-24T13:45:13Z cage_: Josh_2, hi!
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2021-04-24T16:11:14Z ebrasca: Can stumpwm work with wayland?
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2021-04-24T16:14:56Z nij: There's a wayland version of it. I don't think stumpwm can work with wayland right away.
2021-04-24T16:15:05Z loke[m]: ebrasca: no
2021-04-24T16:15:15Z nij: https://github.com/stumpwm/mahogany
2021-04-24T16:15:24Z nij: ebrasca: ^
2021-04-24T16:15:32Z loke[m]: Modeled after. It's not stumpwm
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2021-04-24T16:16:25Z nij: Yeah. Similar but different.
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2021-04-24T16:17:18Z nij: Has anyone tried swank-client with slynk?
2021-04-24T16:17:46Z Bike: there's another lisp compositor called ulubis (https://github.com/malcolmstill/ulubis). dunno how usable it is though
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2021-04-24T16:29:48Z ebrasca: Is paulownia dead?
2021-04-24T16:30:06Z phoe: certainly seems inactive
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2021-04-24T16:32:34Z edgar-rft: I'm quite sure some are still alive
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2021-04-24T17:07:05Z dieggsy: is there a non-destructive replace ?
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2021-04-24T17:07:58Z dieggsy: currently just doing a copy-seq
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2021-04-24T17:08:58Z MichaelRaskin: substitute?
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2021-04-24T17:09:28Z Bike: there is not. i guess you could do something slightly more efficient by making a sequence of the correct length but uninitialized, and replacing into it
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2021-04-24T18:42:13Z nij: Hi! I understand env object depends on the implementation. Does anyone know how env objects are represented in sbcl? In particular, how can I (just for fun) create an env object by hand?
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2021-04-24T18:44:13Z MichaelRaskin: Do you need it persistent or dynamic extent is still fine?
2021-04-24T18:45:00Z Bike: sbcl environments are a struct called "lexenv". If you want to make environments, look at the sb-cltl2 contrib.
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2021-04-24T18:50:21Z nij: MichaelRaskin: I just hope to create a minimal env by hand.. sort of like creating a list like (list 1 2 3).
2021-04-24T18:50:34Z nij: Bike: I'll do that.
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2021-04-24T18:55:14Z nij: Bike: sweet!
2021-04-24T18:55:14Z nij: (let ((env nil)) (sb-cltl2:augment-environment env :variable '(x) :declare '((special x))))
2021-04-24T18:56:09Z Bike: mhm.
2021-04-24T18:57:26Z dieggsy: do i always need to defgeneric before defmethod? just defmethod seems to work at the repl, but i wonder if there are downsides
2021-04-24T18:58:20Z Bike: if you defmethod without a previous defgeneric, a defgeneric is implicitly defined. it's fine. there are some downsides, like the point of definition being less obvious to a reader, and the inability to specify some subtleties about the lambda list
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2021-04-24T18:59:02Z Bike: and you can't specify defgeneric options like the argument precedence order or method combination
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2021-04-24T19:00:37Z dieggsy: ah, fair. interesting
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2021-04-24T19:03:25Z nij: With CL, I can never read/write the content of a specific location in the memory like C's pointer, even with CFFI.. is that correct?
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2021-04-24T19:07:26Z _death: (setf (cffi:mem-ref (cffi:make-pointer 0) :int) 0)
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2021-04-24T19:12:28Z Bike: can't usually access lisp memory though.
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2021-04-24T19:12:58Z _death: what do you mean?
2021-04-24T19:13:32Z Bike: i mean usually lisp implementations don't have defined interfaces to let you mess with lisp objects that way
2021-04-24T19:16:28Z _death: well, there's stuff like sb-sys:vector-sap and such.. it's internal, sure
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2021-04-24T19:20:03Z _death: there are also some nice videos about munging other processes's memory with ptrace.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuGgCOyBMyc
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2021-04-24T19:40:17Z nij: (setf (cffi:mem-ref (cffi:make-pointer 0) :int) 0)   ;; <= Does this really create a C pointer? Or it's just some equivalence (modulo abstraction) in CL?
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2021-04-24T19:47:15Z _death: I'm not sure what you think a C pointer is.. it is usually a simple number (an address) during runtime.. a C compiler also maintains type information that tells it what code to generate to dereference or increment it, for example
2021-04-24T19:49:32Z dieggsy: hmm. so i've got this simple class for a playing card: https://paste.dieggsy.com/2021-04-24T15:49:25 - however, from cl-user, (cards:card-value (cards:card '(11 D))) and (cards:card-value (cards:card '(J D))) return different things
2021-04-24T19:49:37Z _death: in CFFI these pointers are not typed, so cffi:make-pointer just takes the address, and you need to specify the type when you dereference it, for example
2021-04-24T19:49:40Z dieggsy: CARDS::J and J respectively
2021-04-24T19:49:44Z dieggsy: i'm not sure what that's about
2021-04-24T19:51:15Z nij: hmm for example, can I let lisp alter a bit at a specific point in the memory?
2021-04-24T19:51:45Z Shinmera: sure, as you just did with that piece of invalid code there.
2021-04-24T19:53:26Z gigamonk`: diegsy: looks like your code translates 11 to CARDS::J but when you pass it J (which is in whatever package you are in) it just passes it through in the (t v)  branch.
2021-04-24T19:53:51Z gigamonk` is now known as gigamonkey
2021-04-24T19:54:28Z dieggsy: gigamonkey: my code should be translating J to 11 (and keeping 11 as is) though, no?
2021-04-24T19:55:17Z gigamonkey: Ah, yes. But you didn't export CARDS::J.
2021-04-24T19:55:25Z dieggsy: so when i call card-value, it should be hitting the (11) branch?
2021-04-24T19:55:26Z gigamonkey: Try (cards:card-value (cards:card '(CARDS::J D)))
2021-04-24T19:55:51Z dieggsy: I think i'd like it to just return J in both cases
2021-04-24T19:55:58Z dieggsy: ....but i'm not sure if that makes any sense
2021-04-24T19:56:06Z gigamonkey: What you said before was equivalent to (cards:card-value (cards:card '(CL-USER:::J CL-USER::D)))
2021-04-24T19:56:47Z dieggsy: gigamonkey: oh, is it not even hitting the ((J) 11) branch because it's trying to compare CL-USER::J to CARDS::J ? and then just storing it as the symbol CL-USER::J
2021-04-24T19:56:53Z gigamonkey: Yup.
2021-04-24T19:56:58Z dieggsy: oof
2021-04-24T19:57:01Z dieggsy: Uhhhhhhh
2021-04-24T19:57:08Z theothornhill: dieggsy: I pasted everything into repl without declaring packages, and it returns J for each case
2021-04-24T19:57:43Z dieggsy: theothornhill: yep, because the package is the bit i'm interested in and causing the behavior lol
2021-04-24T19:57:53Z dieggsy: well, my misunderstading of them is causing the behavior
2021-04-24T19:57:53Z theothornhill: Hehe, yeah
2021-04-24T19:57:54Z gigamonkey: dieggsy: this is a case where the stylish thing might be to use keyword symbols.
2021-04-24T19:58:13Z theothornhill: (on an unrelated note - that is a pretty font - which one?)
2021-04-24T19:58:14Z gigamonkey: :J, etc. rather than CARDS::J
2021-04-24T19:58:39Z dieggsy: gigamonkey: ah, because they're part of the :keyword package and like, auto qualified or some such
2021-04-24T19:58:40Z dieggsy: ?
2021-04-24T19:59:26Z gigamonkey: not sure what auto qualified means but yeah, basically you are refering to them by explicit package but it's concise because the package name is empty.
2021-04-24T19:59:43Z dieggsy: gigamonkey: just to be clear, that really is the only simple workaround here, right? since i'm working with packages there *is no* notion of "just" J, it's going to be either CL-USER:J or CARDS:J
2021-04-24T19:59:51Z gigamonkey: It also denotes "this is just a symbol being used for it's name"
2021-04-24T19:59:54Z gigamonkey: That's right.
2021-04-24T20:00:27Z _death: dieggsy: you can also export J, so that when you use-package :cards or import it you don't need to qualify it
2021-04-24T20:00:27Z gigamonkey: (Except :: instead of : unless you export J from one of those packages.)
2021-04-24T20:00:29Z dieggsy: gigamonkey: thanks! coming back to lisp for a job after a long time in scheme heh.
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2021-04-24T20:01:14Z dieggsy: theothornhill: title is Fira Sans, code is Iosevka
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2021-04-24T20:01:47Z gigamonkey: If you need more info on this, I would of course recommend http://gigamonkeys.com/book/programming-in-the-large-packages-and-symbols.html ;-)
2021-04-24T20:01:49Z _death: dieggsy: or you can compare just the name instead of identity (case uses eql, you can use say cond and string=)
2021-04-24T20:02:00Z theothornhill: Thanks :)
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2021-04-24T20:03:29Z dieggsy: gigamonkey: ah, thank you!! it has indeed been years since i last picked that up (or did any CL programming)
2021-04-24T20:04:05Z dieggsy: _death: oh shit, i had no idea you could do string= with symbols.... at any point in my lisp journey lol. i've a lot to learn.
2021-04-24T20:04:09Z nij: was reading this last night. super useful => http://gigamonkeys.com/book/programming-in-the-large-packages-and-symbols.html
2021-04-24T20:04:19Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life
2021-04-24T20:04:30Z dieggsy: nij: gigamonkey just linked that heh
2021-04-24T20:04:44Z nij: oh i'm responding to that link!
2021-04-24T20:05:03Z _death: dieggsy: it takes a string designator, which symbols are.. if you want to be more precise, you could (equal (symbol-name x) "J")
2021-04-24T20:05:20Z ebrasca: Does mahogany build?
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2021-04-24T20:06:00Z Josh_2: dieggsy: dw, I've been using Lisp for years and i only realized this a few weeks ago...
2021-04-24T20:07:01Z dieggsy: _death: wait, how do i import J ? I assume i add it to (:export ...) up top but when i try (import 'CARDS:J) i get a name conflict error
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2021-04-24T20:07:39Z _death: dieggsy: that's because you previously interned a symbol with the name "J" in cl-user
2021-04-24T20:08:02Z dieggsy: oh fair
2021-04-24T20:08:07Z _death: dieggsy: so you can invoke a restart to shadow it
2021-04-24T20:08:30Z nij: It might be better to rename string= by string-designator= ? Though it's much longer..
2021-04-24T20:09:23Z _death: nij: designators are for convenience.. you wouldn't want to rename all your operations just because you make them a bit more convenient
2021-04-24T20:09:50Z _death: find-package-using-package-designator vs. find-package
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2021-04-24T21:41:41Z charles`: for .asd files, What are the trade offs of making an asdf package then doing defsystem vs using asdf-user package
2021-04-24T21:41:57Z pseudonymous: This is probably obvious, but when using parenscript,`(ps (@ a b c))` compiles to `at(a, b, c)` for me, not `a.b.c` as advertised. Same kind of issue when attempting to use chain. Any ideas why ?
2021-04-24T21:42:14Z Shinmera: charles`: ASDF style recommends not defining a package.
2021-04-24T21:43:12Z Bike: pseudonymous: maybe you're using some-other-package:@ instead of ps:@
2021-04-24T21:43:21Z charles`: Shinmera so asdf-user it is. I found your twitch channel today
2021-04-24T21:44:00Z Shinmera: Cool. I don't stream coding very often though
2021-04-24T21:45:02Z pseudonymous: Bike: Oh.. Auch. And spot-on. I have had some troubles loading my package when using use-package for various libraries so I've instead defined local package nicknames for all. And of course I need to respect that nickname even inside the ps macro. Thanks :)
2021-04-24T21:47:22Z Bike: no problem
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2021-04-24T22:14:36Z ebrasca: What is the best method to profile common lisp code?
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2021-04-24T23:05:53Z srandon111: anybody lisping on netbsd?
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2021-04-24T23:22:30Z White_Flame: ebrasca: use a built-in profiler?
2021-04-24T23:22:33Z White_Flame: from the implementation
2021-04-24T23:23:13Z ebrasca: I am not sure how the mezzano profiler does work.
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2021-04-24T23:26:51Z ebrasca: OK reading the code I found "Convert a profile into an almost human-readable format"
2021-04-24T23:28:54Z ebrasca: White_Flame: Thanks!
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2021-04-24T23:30:36Z Pixel_Outlaw: Hello all, is hunchentoot still king for making very simple web servers? I just need to make a trivial program that allows multiple people on my office VPN to fill some fields and save to database.
2021-04-24T23:30:40Z drmeister: ebrasca: in clasp we used dtrace on macOS and generate flame graphs.
2021-04-24T23:30:59Z drmeister: Use not used
2021-04-24T23:31:30Z ebrasca: Pixel_Outlaw: I like hunchentoot , but I only play with it.
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2021-04-24T23:40:09Z charles`: Pixel_Outlaw: I would say yes, for sure if you are keeping it simple. It is very cool that you are using Lisp for your office.
2021-04-24T23:41:40Z Pixel_Outlaw: Thanks, you'd not believe how hard it is go get 30 people to pick an meeting time over email. You get looooooong email chains. I'd hoped to present a calendar with pickable time slots so everyone just picks their availability and BOOM we save a 20 responce email chain.
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2021-04-24T23:42:47Z Pixel_Outlaw: Also, we do COVID temperature reports daily and in theroy this could collect that and get it off to HR for their records.
2021-04-24T23:43:23Z Pixel_Outlaw: Right now, they all walk by poor Monica's office and verbally report so she can fill a spreadsheet. :P
2021-04-24T23:46:35Z MichaelRaskin: Hunchentoot is surely still fine
2021-04-24T23:47:25Z MichaelRaskin: Not sure if any of the newer options are better, but you probably don't care about approximately anything (performance? features? who cares for 50 users)
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2021-04-24T23:59:56Z ebrasca: drmeister: Thaks for the implementation idea , I did find a way to get a flame graph and how to visualize it.
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2021-04-25T00:15:05Z White_Flame: Pixel_Outlaw: sure, I started with Clack, but while it's syntactically simpler to set up, it's far less accessible than hunchentoot
2021-04-25T00:15:39Z White_Flame: clack has no documentation, uncommented source code, and does not expose many things easily
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2021-04-25T00:15:57Z White_Flame: hunchentoot is the way to go, at least for now
2021-04-25T00:16:21Z Pixel_Outlaw: White_Flame, yes the curse of hackers "just getting things done" with "works here" and no time for documentation.
2021-04-25T00:16:59Z White_Flame: clack also isn't very good IMO, regarding error handling, not handling many things correctly, broken websockets implementation, etc
2021-04-25T00:16:59Z Pixel_Outlaw: We'll see if hunchentoot plays nice on Windows 10 which is the virus we perpetuate at work. :P
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2021-04-25T00:20:26Z ebrasca: What do you think about radiance?
2021-04-25T00:21:05Z ebrasca: It seem interesting but did not use it.
2021-04-25T00:23:34Z White_Flame: ebrasca: I haven't tested anything but hunchentoot & clack
2021-04-25T00:23:53Z White_Flame: I don't want much of a framework, but just expose http stuff to our framework
2021-04-25T00:24:06Z White_Flame: so hunchentoot fills the space well
2021-04-25T00:29:21Z ebrasca: I did a image board demo with hunchentoot.
2021-04-25T00:31:23Z White_Flame: radiance does look interesting.  once our web stuff is more mature, maybe I'll take a harder look at it
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2021-04-25T01:19:04Z kagevf: I think hunchentoot has the most mindshare
2021-04-25T01:20:37Z kagevf: ... and I like using it :)
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2021-04-25T01:55:46Z charles`: White_Flame: clack is not really meant to be used by someone developing websites. It is just a internal thing that Fukamachi decided to make separate and modular. It is meant to be used via niggle or caveman which has good documentation. clack by itself is not a drop in for hunchcentoot.
2021-04-25T01:56:41Z White_Flame: well, I wonder if those other things have workarounds then for when clack loses errors and such ;)
2021-04-25T01:56:58Z White_Flame obviously did not get a good impression
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2021-04-25T01:57:38Z charles`: I have yet to actually try caveman, but it actually looks better than hunchentoot with more batteries included.
2021-04-25T01:58:07Z White_Flame: if it's on top of clack, I wouldn't trust its completeness or stability
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2021-04-25T01:58:51Z no-defun-allowed: Hyeh, you use <these-class-names> and Python @annotation syntax with Caveman?
2021-04-25T01:59:17Z White_Flame: s/completeness/coverage/ I guess
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2021-04-25T02:03:58Z Josh_2: Hunchentoot behind Nginx is great
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2021-04-25T02:40:54Z nij: swank-client does work for swank.. I'm amazed.
2021-04-25T02:40:56Z nij: https://github.com/brown/swank-client
2021-04-25T02:41:07Z nij: However, I still have on luck for that to work for slynk.
2021-04-25T02:46:34Z Guest50292: i like the idea of migrating my server to hunchentoot so i can live code it remotely
2021-04-25T02:46:38Z Guest50292: but i've not tried that yet
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2021-04-25T02:52:43Z CrashTestDummy: Anyone have experience compiling SBCL?
2021-04-25T02:53:43Z nij: I remember I did.
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2021-04-25T02:54:06Z CrashTestDummy: Ok, cool, I have a question about the results I am seeing from running the tests...
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2021-04-25T02:54:18Z nij: Hmm I will try :O
2021-04-25T02:54:36Z nij: First of, did you follow INSTALL?  https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/master/INSTALL
2021-04-25T02:55:17Z CrashTestDummy: Yes, I followed INSTALL, here is my question...
2021-04-25T02:55:18Z CrashTestDummy: Is it normal to receive various failures from the tests after doing a build from the 2.1.3 source?
2021-04-25T02:55:18Z CrashTestDummy: On Debian 10 (latest) 32-bit I get:
2021-04-25T02:55:18Z CrashTestDummy: Finished running tests.
2021-04-25T02:55:18Z CrashTestDummy: Status:
2021-04-25T02:55:18Z CrashTestDummy:  Expected failure:   compiler-2.pure.lisp / DEDUPLICATED-FDEFNS
2021-04-25T02:55:20Z CrashTestDummy:  Expected failure:   hash.pure.lisp / SXHASH-ON-DISPLACED-STRING
2021-04-25T02:55:22Z CrashTestDummy:  Expected failure:   compiler.impure.lisp / BUG-308921
2021-04-25T02:55:24Z CrashTestDummy:  Expected failure:   dynamic-extent.impure.lisp / DX-COMPILER-NOTES
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2021-04-25T02:55:26Z CrashTestDummy:  Expected failure:   fopcompiler.impure.lisp / FOPCOMPILER-DEPRECATED-VAR-WARNING
2021-04-25T02:55:27Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-04-25T02:55:28Z CrashTestDummy:  Expected failure:   full-eval.impure.lisp / INLINE-FUN-CAPTURES-DECL
2021-04-25T02:55:30Z CrashTestDummy:  Skipped (broken):   gethash-concurrency.impure.lisp / (HASH-TABLE UNSYNCHRONIZED)
2021-04-25T02:55:31Z nij: OH no
2021-04-25T02:55:32Z CrashTestDummy:  Expected failure:   packages.impure.lisp / USE-PACKAGE-CONFLICT-SET
2021-04-25T02:55:34Z CrashTestDummy:  Expected failure:   packages.impure.lisp / IMPORT-SINGLE-CONFLICT
2021-04-25T02:55:35Z nij: Use a paste bin.
2021-04-25T02:55:36Z CrashTestDummy:  Skipped (broken):   timer.impure.lisp / (TIMER THREADED-STRESS)
2021-04-25T02:55:38Z CrashTestDummy:  Expected failure:   walk.impure.lisp / (WALK MULTIPLE-VALUE-BIND)
2021-04-25T02:55:40Z CrashTestDummy:  Expected failure:   walk.impure.lisp / (WALK MULTIPLE-VALUE-BIND SPECIAL)
2021-04-25T02:55:41Z CrashTestDummy:  Invalid exit status: futex-wait.test.sh
2021-04-25T02:55:45Z CrashTestDummy:  (31 tests skipped for this combination of platform and features)
2021-04-25T02:55:47Z CrashTestDummy: test failed, expected 104 return code, got 1
2021-04-25T02:55:49Z CrashTestDummy: and on Debian 10 (latest) 64-bit I get:
2021-04-25T02:55:51Z CrashTestDummy: Finished running tests.
2021-04-25T02:55:53Z CrashTestDummy: Status:
2021-04-25T02:55:55Z CrashTestDummy:  Expected failure:   hash.pure.lisp / SXHASH-ON-DISPLACED-STRING
2021-04-25T02:55:57Z CrashTestDummy:  Invalid exit status: bug-936304.impure.lisp
2021-04-25T02:55:59Z CrashTestDummy:  Expected failure:   compiler.impure.lisp / BUG-308921
2021-04-25T02:56:02Z CrashTestDummy:  Expected failure:   dynamic-extent.impure.lisp / DX-COMPILER-NOTES
2021-04-25T02:56:04Z CrashTestDummy:  Expected failure:   fopcompiler.impure.lisp / FOPCOMPILER-DEPRECATED-VAR-WARNING
2021-04-25T02:56:06Z CrashTestDummy:  Expected failure:   full-eval.impure.lisp / INLINE-FUN-CAPTURES-DECL
2021-04-25T02:56:08Z CrashTestDummy:  Skipped (broken):   gethash-concurrency.impure.lisp / (HASH-TABLE UNSYNCHRONIZED)
2021-04-25T02:56:10Z CrashTestDummy:  Expected failure:   packages.impure.lisp / USE-PACKAGE-CONFLICT-SET
2021-04-25T02:56:12Z CrashTestDummy:  Expected failure:   packages.impure.lisp / IMPORT-SINGLE-CONFLICT
2021-04-25T02:56:16Z CrashTestDummy:  Expected failure:   walk.impure.lisp / (WALK MULTIPLE-VALUE-BIND)
2021-04-25T02:56:18Z CrashTestDummy:  Expected failure:   walk.impure.lisp / (WALK MULTIPLE-VALUE-BIND SPECIAL)
2021-04-25T02:56:20Z CrashTestDummy:  Expected failure:   x86-64-codegen.impure.lisp / MOV-MOV-ELIM-IGNORE-RESIZED-REG
2021-04-25T02:56:22Z CrashTestDummy:  Invalid exit status: futex-wait.test.sh
2021-04-25T02:56:24Z CrashTestDummy:  (15 tests skipped for this combination of platform and features)
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2021-04-25T02:56:26Z CrashTestDummy: test failed, expected 104 return code, got 1
2021-04-25T02:56:28Z CrashTestDummy: Are those "Expected failures", "Skipped (broken)", and "Invalid exit status" items normal? Or am I doing something wrong?
2021-04-25T02:56:31Z CrashTestDummy: Ok, do you have a preference of which site?
2021-04-25T02:56:33Z CrashTestDummy: (sorry)
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2021-04-25T02:56:49Z CrashTestDummy: Here ya go: https://pastebin.com/M3Knp9mh
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2021-04-25T03:01:20Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-04-25T03:01:48Z CrashTestDummy: Morning beach
2021-04-25T03:02:05Z CrashTestDummy: nij: Ok, I posted to pastebin above
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2021-04-25T03:09:26Z dieggsy: A lot of the CL projects i've been looking at haven't been worked on for 2+ years. is this stability, abandonment, little of both?
2021-04-25T03:10:49Z beach: dieggsy: Probably depends on the project.  My projects Flexichain and Cluffer have not been touchechd because they are stable.
2021-04-25T03:11:36Z CrashTestDummy: The typical answer is that a lot of the projects are just "complete" and don't need to be updated because CL is such a "stable" language. In other words, the libraries don't need to be updated to keep up with the language since the language doesn't change.
2021-04-25T03:17:45Z dieggsy: that's fair
2021-04-25T03:17:50Z dieggsy: though that does change for FFI libraries
2021-04-25T03:17:55Z CrashTestDummy: yup
2021-04-25T03:18:41Z Jachy: Similarly, library dependency chains aren't such gigantic monsters like they can be in other ecosystems, so there's less chance for churn to update libraries solely because libraries they depended on updated
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2021-04-25T03:21:02Z dieggsy: is there any good decently up to date computer vision library you guys work with ?
2021-04-25T03:30:52Z nij: CrashTestDummy: I have no idea. I did rememeber receiving some failures of testing.. but that didn't bother me.
2021-04-25T03:31:46Z nij: What makes CL "stable"? And why lib dep chains is not monsters in CL?
2021-04-25T03:33:34Z beach: nij: What is your reason for being interested in environment objects?  If it is just to see how things could be done, check out our libraries Clostrum and Trucler on GitHub.
2021-04-25T03:34:29Z beach: In fact, I believe Trucler can work with SBCL environment objects too.
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2021-04-25T03:40:20Z jcowan: nij: CL is stable because no one person, group, or implementer group controls the evolution of the language.  The current standard has been in place for 30 years, and most unofficial extensions have been worked on in parallel, so that even what is not standard is de facto portable.
2021-04-25T03:40:37Z Jachy: nij: https://github.com/guicho271828/asdf-viz shows some dependency graphs of a few systems. It might be illustrative to compare to the example on https://github.com/0815fox/node-dependency-visualizer/ for Angular (a JS framework)
2021-04-25T03:41:09Z Jachy:  I invite you to run the visualizers on a sampling of CL libs vs JS libs though to compare overall complexities, especially on similarly-scoped projects. Multiple selection pressures contribute to the differences.
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2021-04-25T03:41:57Z Jachy: (You can also see what I mean by churn with the JS project's recent commit in the doc/js folders, "add --all option to npm ls (needed from npm 7 on)".)
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2021-04-25T03:53:54Z nij: jcowan: I like that comment.
2021-04-25T03:55:49Z nij: Why don't people just upgrade their codes without breaking any pass codes?
2021-04-25T03:56:01Z Bike: pass codes?
2021-04-25T03:56:06Z nij: codes in the pass*
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2021-04-25T03:56:21Z Bike: what do you mean, pass?
2021-04-25T03:56:36Z nij: beach: environment objects - I'm just curious to see how to make one like making a list as in (list 1 2 3).
2021-04-25T03:56:37Z Bike: if you're asking why people make breaking changes to software, it's because sometimes the old interface sucks
2021-04-25T03:56:53Z nij: Oh..I'm very tired now. Sorry.. code in the past*
2021-04-25T03:57:23Z nij: Well.. can't we always change without breaking?
2021-04-25T03:58:43Z Bike: to some extent, and that's why my computer has instructions for working with binary coded decimal
2021-04-25T03:59:34Z nij: Yeah.. people should create things that don't perish at all.
2021-04-25T04:00:26Z Bike: sometimes we also want things that work efficiently and well.
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2021-04-25T04:10:46Z jcowan: A lot of code was broken in the shift from pre-CL to CL
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2021-04-25T04:16:26Z jcowan: The Scheme standards are not as stable as the CL standards: they do grow.  But very little of that is backward incompatible.
2021-04-25T04:17:19Z charles`: and they are not as batteries included
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2021-04-25T04:37:15Z CrashTestDummy: nij: Ok, thank you for the response
2021-04-25T04:40:31Z CrashTestDummy: Anyone here ever use Qemu (or some other hardware emulation rather that a normal VM) to compile the SBCL source?
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2021-04-25T04:47:12Z moon-child: jcowan: really, huh.  I always thought the main point of cl (and the reason it was so big) was to keep majority compatibility with all the lisps that preceeded it
2021-04-25T04:47:16Z moon-child: (hence 'common')
2021-04-25T04:47:47Z jcowan: In many respects, yes.  But CL was the firat "mainstream" lisp to do lexical scope, an idea borrowed -- from Scheme.
2021-04-25T04:48:36Z moon-child: having guy steele on the committee _would_ do that
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2021-04-25T05:04:27Z charles`: I love having dynamic scope, but it feels like cheating every time I use it.
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2021-04-25T05:10:17Z Nilby: I don't think dynamic scope is cheating, since it's basicly what the hardware does. But special variables seem a little like cheating, since it's like having undo on your memory.
2021-04-25T05:10:25Z beach: So the MacLisp compiler used lexical scope, but the interpreter used dynamic scope.  The next Lisp system I used was Franz Lisp on Unix, and they worked very hard to make everything use dynamic scope.
2021-04-25T05:16:40Z moon-child: Nilby: how is dynamic scope what the hardware does?
2021-04-25T05:17:04Z moon-child: to my recollection, it was responsible for a number of elisp's performance problems
2021-04-25T05:17:23Z charles`: Nilby, what is the difference between dynamic scope and special variables?
2021-04-25T05:18:02Z beach: charles`: Special variables use dynamic scope.
2021-04-25T05:18:10Z charles`: That is what I though
2021-04-25T05:18:39Z beach: But in the past, many Lisp systems used dynamic scope by default.
2021-04-25T05:18:58Z charles`: like for all variables
2021-04-25T05:19:00Z beach: Yes.
2021-04-25T05:19:16Z beach: It was a huge source of bugs.
2021-04-25T05:19:44Z charles`: Yeah, I remember every had to put -*- lexical -*- at the top of emacs source
2021-04-25T05:19:50Z charles`: or something like that
2021-04-25T05:21:44Z charles`: I don't see why one would be "cheating" and the other not though since I see them as basically the same thing. specials just have the advantage of being able to control which variables are dynamic
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2021-04-25T05:35:44Z Nilby: I'll probably explain it wrong, so I don't want to annoy our experts. Old fashioned dynamic scope isn't much different than writing to a memory location. Lexicals can increase performance because they allow optimizations, increased locality, simplified management, as well as helping get rid of a class of bugs.
2021-04-25T05:46:20Z Nilby: In some way most old Lisps, but not the first, had a form of lexical scope with function arguments. We're lucky the whole scoping thing was nicely resolved in CL.
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2021-04-25T07:06:23Z asarch: One stupid question: in Emacs, how do you Postscript Print Buffer to a file?
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2021-04-25T07:54:16Z saganman: Morning everyone
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2021-04-25T07:54:27Z saganman: hello beach
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2021-04-25T07:55:37Z beach: Hello saganman.
2021-04-25T07:56:04Z saganman: how is the work going on beach? do you work on sundays as well?
2021-04-25T07:56:48Z beach: Work is going fine, thank you.  I am currently preparing my slides for the ELS talk.  And yes, I work every day for around 10-12 hours.
2021-04-25T07:57:02Z beach: What about you?  Still in lockdown?
2021-04-25T07:57:39Z saganman: I am in self imposed lockdown. The situation here is worst.
2021-04-25T07:58:13Z beach: So I hear.  That's very sad.
2021-04-25T08:02:51Z saganman: Yeah, it is brought by people and government with their carelessness. Anyway you work relentlessly beach
2021-04-25T08:04:31Z beach: saganman: I think most researchers work all the time.  One can't just turn the brain off.
2021-04-25T08:06:41Z saganman: yeah, you know my brother is also in research
2021-04-25T08:06:58Z saganman: computational sciences
2021-04-25T08:07:01Z beach: I see.
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2021-04-25T08:08:29Z saganman: I will disconnect from the world today. I got a new P.G. Wodehouse book.
2021-04-25T08:08:56Z beach: Sounds like a good plan.
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2021-04-25T08:10:33Z saganman: I love Wodehouse. Have a nice day beach.
2021-04-25T08:10:54Z saganman: or as Bertie says, tinkertie tonk
2021-04-25T08:10:55Z beach: You too.
2021-04-25T08:11:00Z saganman: haha
2021-04-25T08:20:33Z remby: what is a lisp image? I know it's a binary that holds the interpreter, but I'm not sure how to picture this
2021-04-25T08:20:58Z beach: remby: WOW, hold on a sec...
2021-04-25T08:21:12Z remby: ok :)
2021-04-25T08:22:07Z beach: First of all, most modern Common Lisp systems don't have an interpreter.
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2021-04-25T08:22:39Z beach: Second, the term "Lisp image" is in the glossary.
2021-04-25T08:23:08Z beach: It is a bit long to quote it all here, but you can read it yourself in the Common Lisp HyperSpec.
2021-04-25T08:23:46Z beach: "a running instantiation of a Common Lisp implementation..."
2021-04-25T08:24:07Z beach: So it does not refer to a "binary" if by that you mean a file.
2021-04-25T08:24:49Z remby: yeah that's what I meant
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2021-04-25T08:26:36Z beach: So did you find the glossary entry?
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2021-04-25T08:27:36Z beach: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_l.htm
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2021-04-25T08:28:52Z remby: thanks
2021-04-25T08:29:22Z beach: remby: So the image holds every object, including all executable code.
2021-04-25T08:29:37Z beach: Pleasure.
2021-04-25T08:31:03Z remby: I think this is just kinda hard for me to imagine cause I'm not experienced with low level stuff, but I'll do more research
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2021-04-25T08:32:28Z beach: OK.  What part is hard to imagine?
2021-04-25T08:33:25Z beach: Just think of it as a large graph of objects, each object taking up a chunk of memory, and some words in the chunk may contain pointers to other objects.
2021-04-25T08:34:04Z beach: So, a symbol will be a chunk that has a pointer to a string that holds the name of the symbol, and another pointer that refers to a package object.
2021-04-25T08:34:26Z remby: what about the executable code, does it have no dependencies?
2021-04-25T08:35:04Z beach: Executable code is just a vector of bytes that is tagged so that the operating system accepts that it is executed.
2021-04-25T08:35:15Z beach: What do you mean by "dependencies"?
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2021-04-25T08:37:25Z Nilby laments that operating systems lost the ability to save a restartable image for any process.
2021-04-25T08:37:44Z remby: normally those will be there unless the executable is "statically" linked right?
2021-04-25T08:38:14Z beach: remby: Forget about executable files in a "modern" operating system.
2021-04-25T08:38:57Z beach: remby: Code is truly executable only when it is in the primary memory of the computer.
2021-04-25T08:39:17Z remby: yeah
2021-04-25T08:39:19Z beach: And then it is just a sequence of bytes that the processor understands as instructions.
2021-04-25T08:39:34Z beach: So the Lisp image contains those sequences of bytes as data objects.
2021-04-25T08:40:03Z remby: I see
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2021-04-25T08:42:23Z beach: There are lots of details that you need to know about to understand everything, of course.  Like how a function calls another function, and how a function can refer to its arguments and its lexical variables.
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2021-04-25T08:43:00Z beach: But don't hesitate to ask.  This is important information.
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2021-04-25T08:46:24Z remby: I'm statisfied for now, thank you :)
2021-04-25T08:46:39Z beach: Pleasure.  Good luck!
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2021-04-25T12:05:54Z daphnis: what's a good way to test whether one string ends in another?
2021-04-25T12:06:36Z Inline: ?
2021-04-25T12:06:48Z Inline: substrings ?
2021-04-25T12:08:17Z daphnis: i couldn't find a straightforward way to checking that "foobar" ends in "ar" for example
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2021-04-25T12:08:56Z splittist: alexandria:ends-with-subseq "ar" "foobar" ?
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2021-04-25T12:10:24Z daphnis: splittist: ah, thanks
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2021-04-25T13:31:19Z dieggsy: daphnis: uiop also has string-suffix-p
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2021-04-25T14:39:00Z lotuseater: hey i ran into an interesting problem recently ^^ an algorithm with TAGBODY and labels 1..13 has a step with "now goto step Z+3" so I calculate with (let ((next-step (+ Z 3))) (go next-step)) but of course that didn't work, as no NEXT-STEP label is there. i got it to run otherwise, but my question is is there another clever trick? :D
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2021-04-25T14:40:27Z beach: clhs go
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2021-04-25T14:40:28Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_go.htm
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2021-04-25T14:41:00Z beach: Nope, the argument to GO must be a "go tag".
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2021-04-25T14:41:35Z phoe: lotuseater: if you mean something like computing the tagbody tag dynamically - nope, that won't work
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2021-04-25T14:42:21Z phoe: I mean, you can make yourself a function that accepts a number of sorts at runtime and contains a CASE with a series of GO calls
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2021-04-25T14:42:36Z phoe: that'll mean you will have a runtime jump table of sorts
2021-04-25T14:49:36Z jcowan: of course eval can be your friend here
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2021-04-25T14:51:13Z Josh_2: Afternoon
2021-04-25T14:51:25Z phoe: eval? what do you mean?
2021-04-25T14:51:38Z phoe: it evaluates in a null lexenv
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2021-04-25T14:53:24Z nij: Has anyone used Kenzo :) or even better seen the author hanging around in #lisp? http://www-fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr/~sergerar/Kenzo/
2021-04-25T14:59:18Z lotuseater: ok phoe
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2021-04-25T15:12:21Z Josh_2: nij: I can barely count beyond the fingers on my hands, and the toes on my feet
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2021-04-25T15:13:01Z Josh_2: if we include my other appendages, my eyes and nose maybe I could get to 26 xD
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2021-04-25T15:14:28Z MichaelRaskin: Josh_2: what exactly are two states of the nose suitable for use in counting??
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2021-04-25T15:19:30Z Josh_2: I don't understand MichaelRaskin
2021-04-25T15:20:18Z MichaelRaskin: Well, you say that you consider using your nose for counting
2021-04-25T15:22:00Z nij: Josh_2: whaaaaaat?
2021-04-25T15:22:16Z nij: What are you talking about :D ?
2021-04-25T15:26:39Z Bike: (defmacro computed-goto (min max val) `(ecase ,val ,@(loop for i from min to max collect `((,i) (go ,i)))))
2021-04-25T15:26:41Z Josh_2: Yes, I can count my nose as an appendage
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2021-04-25T15:26:54Z Bike: i guess if you wated to be really fancy you could define a computed-tagbody macro to get the min and max for you
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2021-04-25T15:34:40Z Bike: http://ix.io/38tU like this.
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2021-04-25T15:35:10Z jcowan: phoe: You can't just eval the go, you have to eval the whole thing and use quasiquote to subsitute in the appropriate go tag.
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2021-04-25T15:51:24Z names: zooey Ziemas Nilby orivej lotuseater mathrick dieggsy IPmonger_ wxie gaqwas dnjp[m] mrchampion phoe6245 Gnuxie[m]1 long4mud ravndal cantstanya Aurora_v_kosmose Ekho xsperry astronavt matthewcroughan Jesin sm2n Lord_Nightmare Sauvin agam_b[m] theo[m] rodentrabies heretical_crypte arcontethegreat[ tweet[m] loke[m] e[m]1 katco santiagopim[m] no-defun-allowed dmiles[m] MrtnDk[m] susam quanta[m] etimmons ThaEwat infra_red[m] kreyren ms[m] selwyn Guest59707
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2021-04-25T15:51:24Z names: aindilis perrier-jouet theBlackDragon Josh_2 ChoHag spaethnl joast gumman vaporatorius grumble DGASAU grnman_ kslt1 loke lottaquestions brown121407 cpape Posterdati luna_is_here pranavats mister_m micro mfiano ilmu alfred188 CrashTestDummy voidlily ggoes Jachy __jrjsmrtn__ hjudt leo_song casual_friday_ sp41 HiRE elderthunk amk mjl ffwacom dvdmuckle nullman elflng deltab albusp davros Khisanth markasoftware_ Gromboli docl f4r59 beaky Oddity cipherchess
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2021-04-25T15:51:24Z names: kagevf gabot jxy greeb nullheroes
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2021-04-25T16:11:14Z phoe: jcowan: yes, I understand now
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2021-04-25T16:31:55Z splittist: The devil made me do it: https://github.com/splittist/scanfcl
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2021-04-25T16:39:55Z phoe: no
2021-04-25T16:40:26Z phoe: oh sweet goodness no
2021-04-25T16:40:38Z phoe: you've really done that
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2021-04-25T17:09:37Z nij: Amazing: (sscanf "000000004713b902: 00000002 00000000 00010000 0005 01 19462 /run/WSL/8_interop" "%x: %8x %8x %8x %4x %2x %5lu %s") ;; => (1192474882 2 0 65536 5 1 19462 "/run/WSL/8_interop")
2021-04-25T17:10:58Z Shinmera: phoe: fortunately the dangers of scanf are not present in this version.
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2021-04-25T17:15:38Z dieggsy: splittist: why does the order seems reversed lol
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2021-04-25T17:24:14Z splittist: dieggsy: where?
2021-04-25T17:24:46Z dieggsy: splittist: you have (sscanf "123 abc" "%d %s"), i'd almost expect (sscanf "%d "%s" "123 abc")
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2021-04-25T17:27:43Z splittist: dieggsy: yeah. But that's how C does it: int sscanf(const char *str, const char *format, ...);
2021-04-25T17:28:00Z dieggsy: right
2021-04-25T17:28:24Z splittist: dieggsy: it kind of makes sense if you think of fscanf having the FILE *stream first
2021-04-25T17:28:50Z splittist: and scanf omitting them altogether
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2021-04-25T17:32:58Z dieggsy: oh no, you're right
2021-04-25T17:33:00Z dieggsy: neat
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2021-04-25T18:21:48Z gigamonkey: I gather the folks who wrote uiop consider uiop/pathname a replacement for cl-fad. Can anyone point me to any discussion about why certain things that are in cl-fad are not in uiop (e.g. pathname-as-file unless I'm missing something)?
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2021-04-25T18:24:36Z jackdaniel: gigamonkey: it was "self proclaimed" replacement for many things
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2021-04-25T18:26:05Z Shinmera: I find pathname-as-file's behaviour for directories a bit wild.
2021-04-25T18:27:18Z gigamonkey: Shinmera: how so?
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2021-04-25T18:27:24Z MrFantastik: (member "Alpha" (list "Alpha" "sdas"))
2021-04-25T18:27:24Z MrFantastik:  
2021-04-25T18:27:29Z MrFantastik: why is this nil?
2021-04-25T18:27:30Z phoe: MrFantastik: :test #'string=
2021-04-25T18:27:43Z Shinmera: MrFantastik: because they're not the same strings.
2021-04-25T18:27:46Z phoe: normally member uses #'eql which will not match strings by value, but by identity
2021-04-25T18:28:09Z MrFantastik: ty!
2021-04-25T18:28:18Z Shinmera: gigamonkey: Idk, treating a directory as a file seems wrong to me.
2021-04-25T18:28:26Z jackdaniel: (member '|Alpha| (list '|Alpha| '|sdas|)) for heavy-wieght eq-comparable not mutable strings ,)
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2021-04-25T18:29:14Z phoe: you forgot about interning, please consider '#:|Alpha| as ultra-ugly heavyweight eq-comparable immutable strings
2021-04-25T18:29:26Z phoe: or, on a second thought, actually please don't consider them
2021-04-25T18:29:58Z jackdaniel: they won't be eq
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2021-04-25T18:30:06Z jackdaniel: because that will be two different symbols
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2021-04-25T18:30:21Z Shinmera: (member '#1=#:|Alpha| (list '#1# '#:|sdas|))
2021-04-25T18:30:25Z Shinmera: Clearly :)
2021-04-25T18:30:51Z jackdaniel: why not (member #1="Alpha" (list #1# "sdas")) then? ,p
2021-04-25T18:31:02Z Shinmera: Not lispy enough
2021-04-25T18:31:26Z Shinmera: gigamonkey: Fwiw I wrote my own pathname mangling library in https://shinmera.github.io/pathname-utils
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2021-04-25T18:32:17Z gigamonkey: Shinmera: well, it's just about manipulating pathnames. Like if you wanted to create a file name based on a directory name.
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2021-04-25T18:32:31Z Shinmera: It has a very different idea of what it means to turn a pathname into a "file pathname"
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2021-04-25T18:33:04Z gigamonkey: E.g. (let ((p #p"some/dir/")) (merge-pathnames p (make-pathname :type "foo"))) gives you a goofy result of a pathname with a type but no name.
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2021-04-25T18:33:28Z gigamonkey: Whereaas (let ((p #p"some/dir/")) (merge-pathnames (pathname-as-file p) (make-pathname
2021-04-25T18:33:28Z gigamonkey:              :type "foo"))) does something sensible.
2021-04-25T18:33:35Z Shinmera: Does it?
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2021-04-25T18:34:19Z gigamonkey: To my mind? If I have a directory named foo/bar/ and I want to make a file foo/bar.whatever it does that.
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2021-04-25T18:37:54Z Shinmera: I guess. My disagreement I suppose comes from directories and files being fundamentally of different purposes, so "converting" a directory into a file seems wrong. I would have worded the same maybe like this: (make-pathname :name (pathname-utils:directory-name path) :type "foo" :defaults (pathname-utils:parent path))
2021-04-25T18:38:05Z Shinmera: Much longer of course.
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2021-04-25T18:40:02Z gigamonkey: Yeah. The whole point of CL-FAD (when I wrote the original code for PCL) was to do syntactic manipulations of pathnames. And because pathnames distinguish between directory names and file names I needed a function to say, how would I make a syntactically correct pathname that is the "same" name but as a file.
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2021-04-25T18:41:12Z dieggsy: Can ECL generate statically linked executables?
2021-04-25T18:41:19Z dieggsy: that is, with libecl statically linked in
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2021-04-25T18:44:59Z Shinmera: The depressing thing about writing pathname-utils was that a lot of the behaviour around munging pathnames can be hairy on certain implementations.
2021-04-25T18:45:11Z Shinmera: At least I wrote a test suite to catch most of that.
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2021-04-25T18:56:37Z loskutak: Hi, I want to do a SVD decomposition of (small) matrix in common lisp. Is there any library, that could do that for me? I have tried gsll, but so far I couldn't get it to work.
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2021-04-25T18:57:46Z jackdaniel: dieggsy: yes; but then you limit yourself to .a linkage (i.e no C-compiled fasls)
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2021-04-25T18:58:20Z jackdaniel: that limitation is more a defect than a hard constraint - it could be fixed with code
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2021-04-25T18:59:02Z jackdaniel: compile ecl with --disable-shared to have libecl.a; as for how to compile libraries (with dependencies) to static libraries, check out examples/ directory
2021-04-25T18:59:34Z dieggsy: ah, ok
2021-04-25T18:59:37Z dieggsy: thanks
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2021-04-25T18:59:57Z Shinmera: Ah man, I didn't implement SVD for 3d-matrices? For shame.
2021-04-25T18:59:59Z dieggsy: is there a big performance difference between e.g. SBCL and ECL (i know SBCL is like the holy grail of lisp performance lol)
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2021-04-25T19:00:31Z jackdaniel: dieggsy: for declared numeric operations - no. for everything else - yes
2021-04-25T19:00:51Z jackdaniel: sbcl is much faster for a) generic function dispatch, b) inferred numeric operations
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2021-04-25T19:01:09Z jackdaniel: (and many more things I suppose)
2021-04-25T19:01:12Z dieggsy: ah, great. thanks for the info
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2021-04-25T19:01:51Z jackdaniel: sure. here is somewhat dated benchmark: Bhttps://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/static/files/misc/benchmarks/2016-05-bench-all.html
2021-04-25T19:02:06Z jackdaniel: but it still gives rathe an accurate picture
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2021-04-25T19:03:41Z jackdaniel: I believe that a type inferencer and a fast generic function dispatch will bring ecl much closer to more performant implementations
2021-04-25T19:04:06Z loskutak: Shinmera: my matrices are 8x9
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2021-04-25T19:04:15Z Josh_2: does anyone know how SBCL compares to commercial implementations in terms of performance?
2021-04-25T19:04:28Z Shinmera: loskutak: 3d-matrices does support nxm matrices, but alas, no SVD
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2021-04-25T19:05:05Z jackdaniel: Josh_2: I believe Rainer Joswig ran cl-bench also against lw and allegro, but I don't remember for sure
2021-04-25T19:05:10Z dieggsy: loskutak: what wasn't working about GSLL out of curiosity
2021-04-25T19:05:27Z loskutak: In fact, I want to solve A*x = 0 (nullspace of A), so non-SVD methods would probably be ok as well.
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2021-04-25T19:05:51Z Shinmera: It does have LU and QR.
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2021-04-25T19:08:20Z dieggsy: hmm, what would be the best method to live code an ncurses application? Start a swank server in the program ?
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2021-04-25T19:09:58Z loskutak: dieggsy: idk, I probably just cannot load it properly. I do (ql:quickload "gsll"), (in-package :gsll), then I want to create the matrix with (make-marray) and I get gsll::make-marray is undefined... I am quite new to CL, so I have no idea what is going on... I have also tried testing the installation with (asdf:test-system :gsll), but that fails after while with heap exhausted error
2021-04-25T19:10:22Z jackdaniel: dieggsy: here is a rather hackish tutorial (for cl-charms binding to ncurses) :http://turtleware.eu/posts/cl-charms-crash-course.html
2021-04-25T19:10:49Z jackdaniel: on the same blog you will see also two tutorials about controlling the terminal without ncurses
2021-04-25T19:11:09Z jackdaniel: http://turtleware.eu/posts/Controlling-the-terminal.html; http://turtleware.eu/posts/Charming-CLIM-tutorial-part-2--Rethinking-The-Output.html
2021-04-25T19:11:30Z jackdaniel: (these are shameless plugs of course)
2021-04-25T19:11:32Z dieggsy: jackdaniel: oh, sweet! thank you!
2021-04-25T19:11:54Z dieggsy: loskutak: i don't think you want to (in-package :gsll) like that
2021-04-25T19:13:48Z charles`: Would it be bad to tell a user to redefine a function from my library for configuration?
2021-04-25T19:14:22Z dieggsy: loskutak: for example, after (ql:quickload :gsll) you can use the gsl:sv-decomposition function
2021-04-25T19:14:33Z dieggsy: and you can still (make-array ) or whatever
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2021-04-25T19:15:30Z Shinmera: charles`: yes
2021-04-25T19:16:48Z charles`: So it would be better to ask them to define a *variable* as a lambda?
2021-04-25T19:17:16Z Shinmera: if by define you mean set, yes. At least then reloading your library would not override it (provided you defvar).
2021-04-25T19:17:33Z Shinmera: but it's still not great if multiple different actors would want to configure different aspects of your library.
2021-04-25T19:17:46Z Shinmera: you'd need a more complex mechanism in that case
2021-04-25T19:17:53Z Shinmera: but, not knowing anything about your case, it's hard to say.
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2021-04-25T19:20:12Z dieggsy: jackdaniel: that's pretty much exactly what i was looking for
2021-04-25T19:20:16Z loskutak: dieggsy: cool, this works - I can gsl:sv-decomposition, but if I give it an array created by (make-array '(2 3) :initial-contents '((3 2 2) (2 3 -2))), it fails with: There is no applicable method for the generic function ... gsll:mpointer (3). So I guess I have to convert the array to some other type?
2021-04-25T19:20:42Z charles`: Shinmera, thanks for the insight
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2021-04-25T19:23:14Z dieggsy: loskutak: dunno, i've never used it, i'm just googling stuff. i'd suggest https://common-lisp.net/project/gsll/#examples and https://quickref.common-lisp.net/gsll.html
2021-04-25T19:23:18Z _death: loskutak: cl-mathstats has svd, though the symbol is not exported
2021-04-25T19:23:47Z dieggsy: jackdaniel: i'm not sure i understand (loop (sleep 1))
2021-04-25T19:23:51Z dieggsy: like, what it's for here
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2021-04-25T19:29:22Z loskutak: dieggsy: it seems that they create a matrix with #2m(...), but that gives me "no dispatch function defined for #\M"
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2021-04-25T19:29:59Z jackdaniel: dieggsy: there is only one terminal, and that termial is accessed with standard-output (and other) streams bound in the thread started from said terminal
2021-04-25T19:30:17Z jackdaniel: so this (sleep 1) is to not have the repl in that "main" thread get in the way with input and output processing
2021-04-25T19:30:52Z jackdaniel: for example repl calls (read); so it is first waiting for a character (or a line) - to not have that you make it "busy"
2021-04-25T19:31:44Z jackdaniel: if you want to be more elegant, make it sleep for the most-positive-fixnum :)
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2021-04-25T19:34:14Z loskutak: _death: sorry, I am new to this - what does it mean that it is not exported? Can I load it somehow, or does that mean, that I have to copy the function definition to my code?
2021-04-25T19:35:18Z dieggsy: jackdaniel: not really sure i follow
2021-04-25T19:36:32Z _death: loskutak: it means it's not advertised as public by the library.. you can still call it like (cl-mathstats::singular-value-decomposition matrix)
2021-04-25T19:37:46Z dieggsy: loskutak: looked online for someone using GSLL : https://github.com/mnasoft/math/blob/0ab85a3a1b73f77d9283044df003b1d08547921f/src/ls-solve/gsll-samples.lisp
2021-04-25T19:38:01Z dieggsy: loskutak: looks like they're using grid:make-foreign-array to create the matrices
2021-04-25T19:38:22Z dieggsy: loskutak: i believe that's from the antik library that the GSLL library mentions
2021-04-25T19:38:47Z dieggsy: indeed not a very friendly API
2021-04-25T19:40:03Z Josh_2: How do i check if a variable declared special is bound?
2021-04-25T19:40:10Z Josh_2: I tried boundp but that signals a condition
2021-04-25T19:42:44Z _death: loskutak: the library hasn't changed much in the last decade, so I think it's not a big deal.. you could try to submit a pull request that exports that symbol, or maybe start maintaining your own fork
2021-04-25T19:43:32Z _death: Josh_2: note that you need to pass the name of the variable to boundp
2021-04-25T19:45:22Z Josh_2: Well I have (declare (special *validate*))(when (and (boundp *validate*) *validate*) <do my thing>)
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2021-04-25T19:46:32Z _death: (boundp '*variable*)
2021-04-25T19:46:39Z Josh_2: oof
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2021-04-25T19:46:55Z Josh_2: Simple mistakes like this do make me laugh
2021-04-25T19:46:57Z Josh_2: Thanks
2021-04-25T19:48:42Z loskutak: dieggsy: thanks, I am now able to create the matrices. So much pain... To finally arrive to "Requested feature not (yet) implemented; svd of MxN matrix, M<N, is not implemented in svd.c at line 60" :D
2021-04-25T19:49:02Z dieggsy: LOL
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2021-04-25T19:49:17Z dieggsy: I had been working on a GSL wrapper for chicken scheme a while back
2021-04-25T19:49:25Z dieggsy: maybe i'll look into writing one for CL too jaja
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2021-04-25T19:52:35Z loskutak: I will now try the cl-mathstats svd, then do it with QR decomposition from 3d-matrices instead and if I fail on both of these I will just give up... I am really trying to like CL, but using any external code feels like hitting my head against a wall again and again. It is not very newcomer-friendly :D.
2021-04-25T19:53:08Z Josh_2: Gotta try some easier to use libraries. Simple az
2021-04-25T19:57:50Z dieggsy: loskutak: good computational math libraries are hard to come by in most languages that aren't like the top 5
2021-04-25T19:58:07Z dieggsy: in terms of popularity/industry usage i guess
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2021-04-25T20:00:50Z loskutak: that is understandable. I use python/numpy for most of my work, so I am used to having these functions. I was happy that there is numpy "clone" numcl, but that doesn't have the SVD implemented.. :/
2021-04-25T20:01:19Z CL-ASHOK: CL-JSON or YASON - which one do you guys recommend?
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2021-04-25T20:03:27Z jackdaniel: dieggsy: say you start lisp form the terminal. the repl runs and it calls (read-line)
2021-04-25T20:04:03Z jackdaniel: then you connect from emacs and call a function (read-char *stdio*)
2021-04-25T20:04:33Z jackdaniel: since the first repl already called dips, the first input will go to it (and confuse you probably)
2021-04-25T20:04:46Z jackdaniel: dibs*
2021-04-25T20:05:13Z Josh_2: CL-ASHOK: I always use Jojo
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2021-04-25T20:05:22Z Josh_2: Jonathan
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2021-04-25T20:05:45Z Shinmera: I've had jonathan hard crash my lisp because it apparently does some really nasty shit in the name of optimisation.
2021-04-25T20:05:54Z Shinmera: I think I typically use jsown or yason.
2021-04-25T20:06:44Z jackdaniel: jsown has that safety 0 speed 3 declaration, just so you know (it may have unhandled memory faults for incorrect input)
2021-04-25T20:07:22Z jackdaniel: bedtime, goodnight folks \o
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2021-04-25T20:07:56Z CL-ASHOK: nights
2021-04-25T20:08:45Z loskutak: great news, the cl-mathstats SVD works :). It cannot do MxN matrices with M<N either, but it helpfully told me to add rows of zeros and then it works :) (except it doesn't sort the singular values, but that would not be a problem). I have then tried this "add zero rows" trick in gsll and it works too and gives me more precision. Thanks a lot for all the help, guys.
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2021-04-25T20:09:11Z CL-ASHOK: Josh_2: Will check out Jonathan too, currently using Yason
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2021-04-25T20:25:31Z dieggsy: loskutak: nice! I'm definitely no stranger to missing numpy's convenience in other languages, so i feel your pain heh
2021-04-25T20:25:43Z dieggsy: jackdaniel: ah ok. thanks for the explanation
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2021-04-25T20:36:30Z moon-child: there is april
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2021-04-25T20:40:06Z dieggsy: moon-child: that's very cool and i hadn't heard of it, but I'm not sure I'd describe APL as "convenient" heh
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2021-04-25T20:44:54Z moon-child: call it an acquired taste
2021-04-25T20:46:52Z dieggsy: lol, sure
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2021-04-25T21:47:30Z dieggsy: besides rlwrap (and of course slime from emacs), is there a go-to for a more pleasant terminal REPL experience?
2021-04-25T21:48:25Z Shinmera: there's linedit, though I haven't used it myself.
2021-04-25T21:48:52Z moon-child: https://github.com/koji-kojiro/cl-repl
2021-04-25T21:49:05Z moon-child: there's another cl-specific one, but it's slow
2021-04-25T21:49:21Z dieggsy: also, do you guys use roswell? can it be made to play nicely with quicklisp or do i have a misconception that they're somehow separate
2021-04-25T21:49:31Z dieggsy: moon-child: oh thanks lol, i asked that^ cause i was just looking at that page
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2021-04-25T21:55:13Z MetaYan_: dieggsy: For SBCL there's https://github.com/jini-zh/sbcl-readline
2021-04-25T21:55:31Z dieggsy: ine
2021-04-25T21:55:36Z dieggsy: whops. i'll take a look, thanks
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2021-04-25T22:00:14Z dieggsy: hmmmm. i've figured out using roswell with system lisp, i wonder if i can make it use my pre-installed quicklisp as wel
2021-04-25T22:03:22Z dieggsy: moon-child: ros install install is failing with Symbol "%SIMPLE-FUN-NEXT" not found in the SB-KERNEL package.
2021-04-25T22:10:47Z dieggsy: ah, linedit is pretty nice i suppose
2021-04-25T22:13:18Z antoszka: it's not too bad
2021-04-25T22:13:21Z antoszka: as long as it works
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2021-04-25T22:15:44Z dieggsy: ah, actually, rlwrap gives me vi-style bindings so rlwrap it is lol
2021-04-25T22:15:53Z dieggsy: sbcl-readline isn't available on quicklisp i guess
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2021-04-25T22:33:41Z MetaYan_: dieggsy: sbcl-readline is not in the distribution, so to install it, one just clones it in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ and runs (ql:register-local-projects) once.
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2021-04-25T22:36:46Z dieggsy: MetaYan_: neat, thanks
2021-04-25T22:36:53Z MetaYan_: dieggsy: I use it because it has completion and easy access to function documentation, plus it saves history.
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2021-04-25T22:37:09Z dieggsy: MetaYan_: how do you access function docs?
2021-04-25T22:37:51Z MetaYan_: dieggsy: With a space after the function, just press TAB.
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2021-04-25T22:38:42Z dieggsy: cool
2021-04-25T22:39:14Z dieggsy: i'm still mostly use slime, but having something nice to fallback to is always nice
2021-04-25T22:39:24Z MetaYan_: dieggsy: TAB twice.
2021-04-25T22:39:33Z MetaYan_: dieggsy: Same here.
2021-04-25T22:40:35Z MetaYan_: dieggsy: For the real stuff, it's Portacle here.
2021-04-25T22:42:09Z dieggsy: do you find yourself regularly switching computers?
2021-04-25T22:44:30Z MetaYan_: dieggsy: I have many with different OSes, so yes. Lisp works fine on all ;). Why? (Maybe continue in #lispcafe)
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2021-04-26T03:02:11Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-04-26T03:02:20Z Oddity: hello
2021-04-26T03:02:46Z hegz: morning!
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2021-04-26T03:03:49Z beach: Oddity, hegz : Are you new here?  I don't recognize your nicks?
2021-04-26T03:05:00Z Oddity: I've lurked on and off for a few years
2021-04-26T03:05:08Z beach: I see.
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2021-04-26T03:06:55Z hegz: beach hehe, I'm a newbie lisper :)
2021-04-26T03:07:09Z beach: Great!
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2021-04-26T03:12:18Z beach: hegz: #lisp is not really for truly basic questions, but they are tolerated.  If it gets too lengthy, you might be redirected to #clschool.  What are your plans with respect to Common Lisp?  Write applications?  Just play around?  Something else?
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2021-04-26T03:18:02Z beach: Thought I guess there are some questions that are "truly basic" but where the answers won't hurt to be repeated here, like the semantics of argument passing and how lists are represented.
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2021-04-26T03:26:54Z hegz: beach I'm still not sure whether I will dig deeper into CL or not tbh, my journey with lisp was mainly me reading SICP and I was kinda surprised this channel is specific to CL but not lisps in general haha
2021-04-26T03:28:12Z beach: I see.  Well, SICP is a nice textbook for genera ideas about programming, like encapsulation, etc.  But the style of object-oriented programming in SICP is not as practically useful as CLOS.
2021-04-26T03:28:22Z beach: *general
2021-04-26T03:31:11Z beach: hegz: There is ##lisp for general Lisp discussions, but since there is no widely agreed-upon definition of "Lisp", I imagine the discussions can become strange.  That's part of the reason I am not in that channel.
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2021-04-26T03:37:36Z hegz: beayeahch yeah, the main reason that drove me into starting with SICP was the approach to programming in general and you get to learn scheme as a bonus haha.
2021-04-26T03:37:36Z hegz: There were these MIT lectures of the book authors which I found brilliant.
2021-04-26T03:37:45Z Nilby: hegz: One of our lispers has written a Scheme in CL in case you want to do both at the same time - https://gitlab.com/mbabich/airship-scheme
2021-04-26T03:38:37Z beach: hegz: I understand.
2021-04-26T03:41:02Z hegz: <Nilby "hegz: One of our lispers has wri"> Lispers seem to love porting stuff don't they haha
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2021-04-26T03:41:55Z no-defun-allowed: Just wait until someone ports Common Lisp to Common Lisp.
2021-04-26T03:43:23Z Nilby: Yes they do, myself included. Once you have a CL environment that you like, it's hard to go back.
2021-04-26T03:43:53Z raeda: no-defun-allowed: Are you saying that nobody's made a self-hosting CL interpreter yet?
2021-04-26T03:44:53Z no-defun-allowed: A self-hosting interpreter? SBCL has an interpreter written in Common Lisp, but there aren't any full Common Lisp systems written entirely in Common Lisp (including garbage collector, operating system interface and so on).
2021-04-26T03:45:13Z beach: raeda: Modern Common Lisp systems don't have an interpreter at all, so it is entirely possible that nobody did that.
2021-04-26T03:45:59Z moon-child: you can use iota to run ecl
2021-04-26T03:47:36Z hegz: but now what makes CL superior to other lisps.
2021-04-26T03:47:36Z hegz: does it have something to do with the application or is it just entirely opinionated tastes.
2021-04-26T03:48:31Z beach: hegz: The condition system is unique, as is CLOS.  But, again, there is no widely agreed-upon definition of "Lisp", so it is unclear which these "other lisps" might be.
2021-04-26T03:48:32Z Alfr: Isn't sbcl mostly there? Aren't the missing crucial bits only the loader and the gc?
2021-04-26T03:48:50Z raeda: A self hosting CL interpreter sounds like a fun lockdown project :D
2021-04-26T03:48:52Z Alfr: I don't think they intend to change that any time soon, but still.
2021-04-26T03:49:32Z no-defun-allowed: Common Lisp is a programming system, most other Lisp languages are just that.
2021-04-26T03:50:08Z Alfr: Hm ... i guess, getting away from C also would mean to implement handling systems calls.
2021-04-26T03:50:17Z beach: I believe Mezzano is written entirely in Common Lisp.
2021-04-26T03:51:30Z moon-child: Alfr: system calls are not difficult.  The challenge is that few systems have a stable syscall interface
2021-04-26T03:51:41Z moon-child: linux is a rare exception in that respect
2021-04-26T03:51:47Z Alfr: beach, good to know, thanks.
2021-04-26T03:51:51Z beach: raeda: I suggest a compiler instead.  It will take a bit longer, but it will be more useful.
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2021-04-26T03:52:11Z Nilby: linux doens't have stable syscalls, it just pretends
2021-04-26T03:52:17Z no-defun-allowed: My personal opinion is that CL has more in common with Smalltalk or Self than some other Lisps (though it is hard to make a case with Scheme, I dunno).
2021-04-26T03:52:33Z Alfr: moon-child, handling errors is a pita though.
2021-04-26T03:52:56Z moon-child: not moreso than when calling the same functions through a c wrapper
2021-04-26T03:52:59Z moon-child: *more so
2021-04-26T03:54:11Z Alfr: no-defun-allowed, in scheme you have call/cc and thus you can easily get green threads. (I think you were complaining the lack thereof recently.)
2021-04-26T03:54:16Z no-defun-allowed: The language is designed around interacting with an image, and there are facilities to make it work nicely in the language and its implementations.
2021-04-26T03:54:20Z beach: Alfr: System calls are messy either way.  I have a long-term project for defining an implementation-independent protocol for POSIX and Linux system calls.
2021-04-26T03:54:55Z no-defun-allowed: Alfr: But then you also have call/cc and apparently if you breathe on it hard, you get performance problems. Don't get me wrong, I find it fun, but everyone else seems to think it's a bad idea.
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2021-04-26T03:56:08Z no-defun-allowed: All that is necessary is a one-shot undelimited continuation, not multi-shot. And that is basically just a copy of all the registers of the thread, which is what operating systems use already.
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2021-04-26T03:59:38Z Nilby: Even C isn't always exactly self-hosting as people thing. Ironically a popular C compiler has some tricky bits in a Lisp-like language.
2021-04-26T04:00:12Z no-defun-allowed: "Lisp is when you do (()) and the more ((())) you do the more Lisp it is"
2021-04-26T04:00:28Z beach: Nilby: You mean GCC?  That's no surprise, since it was initially written by RMS.
2021-04-26T04:01:06Z no-defun-allowed: There is a .pd file with some S-expression stuff (pd for pattern dispatch?) and it is used for partial evaluation of C code.
2021-04-26T04:01:09Z Nilby: beach: Yes :)
2021-04-26T04:01:40Z beach: Nilby: RMS opted for a free version of Unix, rather than a free version of Genera, for political reasons.  And he was right.  If I had been in the position of RMS at the time I would have made the wrong decision.
2021-04-26T04:01:51Z no-defun-allowed: https://github.com/gcc-mirror/gcc/blob/master/gcc/match.pd Hm, yes, this is Lisp.
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2021-04-26T04:02:10Z moon-child: beach: did he not also make emacs? ;)
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2021-04-26T04:02:32Z no-defun-allowed: Funny how I say that so-and-so clearly isn't Lisp, but then say I don't care because a language which just passes the definition doesn't interest me.
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2021-04-26T04:02:38Z beach: moon-child: Indeed.  But he was not the first one to write an Emacs in Lisp.
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2021-04-26T04:04:01Z moon-child: no-defun-allowed: is that really lisp?  I see quite a lot of c syntax, which would seem to indicate that's an sexp shim
2021-04-26T04:04:15Z no-defun-allowed: moon-child: That is what I was trying to get at.
2021-04-26T04:04:33Z Nilby: beach: I think it was also that he already had Emacs running on unix, and finding people who could write unix utilities is much easier than finding people to replicate Genera.
2021-04-26T04:05:39Z beach: Nilby: Yes, that's what I meant by "political reasons".  His idea would have been a failure if he had chosen something other than Unix to copy.
2021-04-26T04:06:07Z Nilby: Indeed.
2021-04-26T04:06:43Z beach: Nilby: But that must have been a very hard decision to make.  Knowing that there is something better, but choosing the worse alternative anyway.  I remember his phrase "Unix is not great, but it is not too bad".
2021-04-26T04:06:58Z moon-child: well, that's 'worse is better' in general
2021-04-26T04:08:19Z Nilby: Exactly. I guess that's why we're still using Emacs as the top half of most of our current CL environments.
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2021-04-26T04:10:14Z Nilby: Also GCL was probably assumed to go further.
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2021-04-26T04:23:33Z beach: Nilby: It seems RMS did not like Common Lisp at all.  "Common Lisp is HUGE!"
2021-04-26T04:23:58Z beach: Of course, it is not that big compared to other languages today.
2021-04-26T04:24:05Z no-defun-allowed: I thought he didn't like keyword arguments at least, and this was from a presentation at some Lisp meeting in 2005.
2021-04-26T04:24:39Z beach: Do you remember the reason for not liking keywords arguments?
2021-04-26T04:24:40Z no-defun-allowed: https://www.gnu.org/gnu/rms-lisp.html is a transcript of RMS at ILC 2002 rather.
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2021-04-26T04:25:41Z no-defun-allowed: "I don't mind if a very complex and heavyweight function takes keyword arguments.  What bothers me is making simple
2021-04-26T04:25:41Z no-defun-allowed: basic functions such as “member” use them." Fine, write a simple definition of object equality first.
2021-04-26T04:25:49Z Nilby: beach: Yes. It's interesting to see his votes and opinions on the CL committee. And funny that only after he's backed off does Elisp get nice things lexical scope.
2021-04-26T04:26:22Z beach: no-defun-allowed: I see, yes.
2021-04-26T04:26:51Z beach: Nilby: Interesting.
2021-04-26T04:30:02Z Nilby: And funny that Gosling doesn't get more credit for writing most of the C code in the first versions of GNU+/Emacs, even if he made the worst lisp ever.
2021-04-26T04:31:06Z no-defun-allowed: It should be called "debit" or something like that.
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2021-04-26T04:38:32Z Jachy: I'm still amazed at how prolific Stallman was just in keeping up with a dozen already prolific Symbolics hackers in duplicating so much of their functionality for LMI.
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2021-04-26T04:45:17Z Nilby: Jachy: It's quite impressive, but it's sad that LMI eventually got hopelessly behind, and maybe it more explains why rms ragequit to work on unix.
2021-04-26T04:45:26Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, sure.
2021-04-26T04:46:35Z Nilby: it's cool when you can ragequit in a way that seems to benefit humanity
2021-04-26T04:47:09Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, sure.
2021-04-26T04:49:28Z White_Flame: the complaining about heavyweight arguments is certainly one of a snapshot in time, before compilers could do a whole lot more to statically eliminate things
2021-04-26T04:49:52Z Jachy: Xerox indirectly spawned many things. Imagine if they hadn't pissed rms off by not giving them its source code
2021-04-26T04:50:07Z White_Flame: always leave room for the Sufficiently Advanced Compiler of Tomorrow™
2021-04-26T04:51:33Z Nilby: I'd like to peek at the alternate universes without a pissed off rms, or with a sucessful Symbolics.
2021-04-26T04:53:40Z White_Flame: if Symbolics and Commodore had merged to bring lisp machines to the masses, I'd be quite a happy camper
2021-04-26T04:56:04Z no-defun-allowed: I read they were supposed to have a cheap Lisp chip in 1985, but that didn't happen.
2021-04-26T04:56:04Z Nilby: Heh. Symbolics seems to have had a something close to Video Toaster.
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2021-04-26T05:00:49Z beach: I think we can do something better than Genera.  In today's world, we need more security anyway.  And Lisp runs just fine on stock hardware today.
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2021-04-26T05:01:23Z beach: We have better garbage collectors, and better compilers.  And we now have a great native GUI library.
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2021-04-26T05:16:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: Shinmera: do you happen to have documentation about issues with PARSE-NAMESTRING?
2021-04-26T05:17:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've found that using parse-namestring and a combination of MERGE-PATHNAME and MAKE-PATHNAME, I can get pathname behavior that's consistent enough across-implementations for most of my purposes
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2021-04-26T05:35:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've slowly come to appreciate CL's pathnames
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2021-04-26T05:36:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'd still like to see URLs specified the way PLNs have been, and for them to subsume most of the pathname stuff
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2021-04-26T06:16:44Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: parse-namestring is hairy due to wild pathnames. So stuff like [], *, and others (implementation dependent!!) may need escaping.
2021-04-26T06:19:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: Interesting
2021-04-26T06:19:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: That's good to know :)
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2021-04-26T06:20:09Z Shinmera: implementing an analog to uiop's parse-native-namestring is on my todo for pathname-utils (and has been for years)
2021-04-26T06:20:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think it'd be useful to take the CLOSER-MOP approach with pathnames, really
2021-04-26T06:21:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: Specify the edge cases of the standard, and provide a package that implements that specification and a package that shadows the appropriate CL names
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2021-04-26T07:00:53Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: or, having identified the edge cases, and specified them, patch the open source implementations so they behave the same on the same platform, and push so that commercial vendors implement the same.
2021-04-26T07:01:22Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: we have a strong position here given there are more free implementations than commercial ones.
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2021-04-26T07:01:52Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: but remember: pathnames depend on the platform and the file systems that are mounted (depending on how the platform deals with them, check the mount options!)
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2021-04-26T07:07:10Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: for logical-pathnames, see https://github.com/informatimago/check-pathname/blob/master/check-pathnames.lisp
2021-04-26T07:09:30Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: in general the problem is not so much that CL leaves things up to the implementations (there are a variety of platforms), but that there have not been defined a set of substandards specifying things for specific platforms.  eg. how to deal with pathnames on MacOS, on Unix, on MS-DOS, on MS-Windows, on VMS, on Multics, etc.
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2021-04-26T07:13:26Z Nilby: fiddlerwoaroof: The outputs of check-pathname for the various systems is very detailed answer to your original question.
2021-04-26T07:15:11Z Nilby: pjb: Thanks for the excellent resource.
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2021-04-26T07:17:46Z Nilby: Now we just have to pipe the output from check-pathname on all systems to the automatic implementation fixer and we're nearly done.
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2021-04-26T07:20:13Z Nilby: But my opinion is that the CL pathname stuff is written for a world which doesn't exist anymore, if it ever did, and there is a much simpler protocol that will cover all filesystems currently in use.
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2021-04-26T07:23:03Z pjb: Nilby: granted.  But AFAIR, only for soft specifications items.  Eg. the specification mentions the customary case, but this customary case doesn't depend on the platform but also on the file system mounted, and platforms that can mount different file systems can (or could) deal with different customary case.  In the same pathname! (ie, per component).
2021-04-26T07:23:41Z pjb: Nilby: but for hard features, such as the structure of paths in components, the hierarchic directory structure, etc, it's about good.
2021-04-26T07:24:36Z Alfr: I don't think pathnames support forks. (Not that it's a good idea to use them in the first place.)
2021-04-26T07:24:38Z pjb: Nilby: eg. the distinction between directory and file pathnames, even if it's not so clear-cut in POSIX pathnames, is still enforced in POSIX (eg. opendir vs open, or rmdir vs rm for files).
2021-04-26T07:24:54Z pjb: Alfr: what do you mean with forks here?
2021-04-26T07:25:19Z Alfr: pjb, it's called alternate data stream in ntfs.
2021-04-26T07:25:25Z pjb: Oh, I see.
2021-04-26T07:26:14Z pjb: Well it's unrelated to pathnames.  It'd be a parameter for OPEN. Since OPEN takes key arguments, it's already ready for an extension to specify what fork you want to open.
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2021-04-26T07:28:09Z pjb: Alfr: the only place where it could be visible in pathnames, is when you map file systems with forks on unix (thru a mount), and they're translated in the path /mnt/fs-with-forks/example-file/data-fork  when example-file is a file with fork, not a directory.
2021-04-26T07:28:52Z Alfr: Hm ... that'd be a solution, but conceptually I'd still think it rather belongs to pathnames.
2021-04-26T07:29:30Z pjb: Alfr: but in practice mounting Apple file systems on unix can use the apple-double or apple-triple format, which use alternate files with extensions: /mnt/apple-triple/example-file{.data,.rsrc,.info}   /mnt/apple-double/example-file{,.rsrc}
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2021-04-26T07:30:11Z pjb: This can be dealt with relatively easily with CL pathnames (the only thing to specify is how to deal with multiple dots in the file name.
2021-04-26T07:30:13Z pjb: )
2021-04-26T07:30:47Z Alfr: pjb, or some directory which also can store data, would be an other interpretation.
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2021-04-26T07:32:00Z pjb: That could be used when forks are user specifiable, indeed.
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2021-04-26T07:32:41Z pjb: But in reality, aren't files with forks exactly that: directories?  Like "file packages" on NeXTstep/OpenStep/Cocoa/macOS/iOS ?
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2021-04-26T07:33:19Z pjb: So again, but depending on the target filesystem and platform, this can be dealt with by CL pathname without difficulty.
2021-04-26T07:33:21Z splittist: Nilby: I would expect all manner of competing CloudFS in the near future
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2021-04-26T07:37:20Z Nilby: splittist: Yes, there's already a lot of CloudFS things, an they seem to usually use URLs or even more complicated things. I personally dread having URLs a file names. But there seems to be an opportunity for a more encompassing "resrouce locator"/filename library.
2021-04-26T07:39:01Z Nilby: pjbj: I'm pretty sure old MCL (and probably ccl now) could open resource forks, even on pre-unix MacOS.
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2021-04-26T07:44:27Z Nilby: I think ms-windows is an example of how the more complexity you put into file names, the more problems you'll have.
2021-04-26T07:44:48Z Alfr: pjb, hm ... maybe name and type being :unspecific? I don't think there's anything in 19. prohibiting this.
2021-04-26T07:47:47Z flip214: At a first glance, I'd guess a subclass of PATHNAME that includes eg. a SCHEME (like :HTTPS) and a PORT (443) might be a reasonable approximation for many uses....
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2021-04-26T07:49:06Z flip214: Though, as soon as LOAD can OPEN such beasts directly, we're back at square one (security-wise - see https://www.php.net/manual/en/wrappers.php)
2021-04-26T07:50:18Z Nilby: I wonder has anyone made something like a cl-tramp ?
2021-04-26T07:53:04Z flip214: trampolines on the stack?
2021-04-26T07:54:02Z Nilby: like the emacs tramp package that allows very extensible url-like filenames
2021-04-26T07:55:43Z pjb: flip214: granted, we have enough places to run code in lisp, not to add one in file names…
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2021-04-26T07:58:07Z Nilby: Yes, internet file names seems quite scary and insecure. I would wish it would be something that the operating system could manage in a more secure way.
2021-04-26T07:59:24Z engblom: In the first chapter of Practical Common Lisp there is a simple database made out of lists. In it remove-if-not is used for quering the database. If you know there will always be only one occurence, it seems to be a bit wasteful to filter the whole list instead of just finding the first (and only) occurence. What could I use instead?
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2021-04-26T08:00:50Z Shinmera: find
2021-04-26T08:01:56Z no-defun-allowed: here it is →
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2021-04-26T08:07:42Z pjb: LOL
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2021-04-26T08:08:22Z pjb: engblom: also, sometimes you will want position (position-if vs find-if), so that you may mutate the slot.
2021-04-26T08:09:48Z engblom: Thanks!
2021-04-26T08:10:27Z contrapunctus: no-defun-allowed, pjb: I didn't get that 🤔
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2021-04-26T08:12:19Z engblom: In my case I have a list of lists. Each sublist is a keyed list like this: (:ip x.x.x.x :port xx :user x :password x). Given an ip I need to find the rest of the settings.
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2021-04-26T08:13:06Z engblom: As IP is unique there will only be one occurence.
2021-04-26T08:13:22Z jdz: engblom: Those are called "property lists," or "plists" in short.
2021-04-26T08:13:34Z engblom: Okay!
2021-04-26T08:13:52Z jdz: engblom: There's GETF for those.
2021-04-26T08:15:15Z pjb: (find ip lol :key (lambda (entry) (getf entry :ip)) :test (function ip-equal-p))
2021-04-26T08:15:20Z engblom: jdz: I will getf for getting each of the settings out, but to find the right plist I still have to use find?
2021-04-26T08:15:34Z pjb: Yes ^
2021-04-26T08:15:40Z engblom: Thanks!
2021-04-26T08:15:46Z pjb: (let ((entry (find ip lol :key (lambda (entry) (getf entry :ip)) :test (function ip-equal-p)))) (getf entry :password))
2021-04-26T08:18:34Z engblom: Is ip-equal-p already existing somewhere or do I have to write it myself?
2021-04-26T08:19:11Z jdz: engblom: You can use STRING= until you actually parse the IP addresses.
2021-04-26T08:20:08Z engblom: jdz: I was thinking to use string=, but as you put there ip-equal-p I was just wondering if a such function actually already exists.
2021-04-26T08:20:50Z jdz: engblom: I've started writing an IP address library, but it lacks IPv6 support, and I'm undecided about many implementation aspects: https://github.com/jdz/ip.
2021-04-26T08:22:12Z jdz: engblom: You should define IP-EQUAL-P as (declaim (inline ip-equal-p)) (defun ip-equal-p (a b) (string= a b)) until you have something better.
2021-04-26T08:22:27Z no-defun-allowed: contrapunctus: I should admit to not having read the question, and I had assumed Shinmera typed find into the wrong buffer. Maybe "found it!" would have been a more direct response.
2021-04-26T08:22:46Z engblom: In this case I am sure the string= is enough thou, because the ip that is looked for is actually originally from the same plist, so there will never be cases where I need to handle comparing 192.168.1.1 to 192.168.001.001
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2021-04-26T08:23:41Z jdz: engblom: My library also does not "correctly" parse "127.1".
2021-04-26T08:23:47Z no-defun-allowed: That's easy enough then.
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2021-04-26T08:27:46Z flip214: well, IMO any IP comparision has to be done in the binary (or integer) representation, and should take optional netmasks anyway.
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2021-04-26T08:32:18Z pjb: IP address comparison may be complexified by the fact that there exist 2 kinds of IP addresses (IPv4 and IPv6) and several representation variations.  So it's better to abstract it away with a function.
2021-04-26T08:32:38Z pjb: You could also define classes to represent IP addresses in a normalized way.
2021-04-26T08:33:15Z pjb: engblom: In some programs too, domain names can be used interchangeably with IP addresses (DNS resolution being performed automatically).
2021-04-26T08:33:51Z pjb: But since a domain name may correspond to several addresses, the comparison is not a mere =, but rather a set intersection…
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2021-04-26T08:46:49Z phoe: pjb: I think that DNS lookups and comparisons are a slightly different topic; munging IPs on their own is easy because they can be treated as ub8 vectors, and mapping between IPs and domain names already sounds like something that a DNS library would do
2021-04-26T08:47:43Z phoe: IP versus DNS, that's already two distinct protocols from distinct OSI layers
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2021-04-26T08:48:55Z phoe: if a program accepts domain names, then I guess that it should call into a DNS library, which can then in turn accept actual domain names and bare IP addresses alike and do the necessary munging before passing the resultant IP addresses into the IP layer
2021-04-26T08:49:10Z phoe: but that's already general separation of concerns and nothing really lisp-related
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2021-04-26T09:42:31Z pjb: phoe: granted.  It depends on the layer of this data structure.  I mentionned domain name, because at the user level (eg. configuration file) we will often accept domain names as well as IP addresses.  But you may want to retain the domain name internally.  The question is when you want the resolution to occur.
2021-04-26T09:43:01Z pjb: phoe: in general, the resolution is performed the latest possible, ie. when connecting.
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2021-04-26T09:57:47Z flip214: there are S3 client libraries for CL... has someone written or started a minimal S3 server that uses the filesystem as backend?
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2021-04-26T10:11:35Z engblom: I wish to run an external command and as the command is generating lines after lines I want to use them, rather than waiting for the program to terminate before using the output. Could someone help me with this?
2021-04-26T10:11:56Z phoe: engblom: uiop:launch-program and bind the program's stdio
2021-04-26T10:11:57Z splittist: remove-if-not takes a :count
2021-04-26T10:12:33Z phoe: splittist: huh? yes, it does
2021-04-26T10:12:37Z phoe: s/stdio/stdout/
2021-04-26T10:12:39Z engblom: phoe: Thanks
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2021-04-26T10:18:42Z pjb: flip214: IIRC, somebody has some stuff with AWS, indeed.  Perhaps Zach (of quicklisp)?
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2021-04-26T10:44:50Z splittist: https://gist.github.com/splittist/ba5e3ba2074419b69df78285ed6cb57c
2021-04-26T10:44:57Z flip214: pjb: I only found client libraries
2021-04-26T10:45:00Z flip214: thanks anyway
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2021-04-26T10:51:18Z pjb: flip214: oh, you want a server.  Yep, only amazon has that AFAIK.
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2021-04-26T11:03:44Z engblom: I have been also playing a bit with uiop:run-program. When called with :output :string it will return all the output, except for when the process is killed. Is it possible to get it to return everything (output + error messages) in a single string regardless of how the process ended?
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2021-04-26T11:05:20Z engblom: For example: (uiop:run-program "ping 1.1.1.1" :force-shell t :output :string)
2021-04-26T11:05:49Z engblom: And then when I run in a terminal "pkill ping" I do not get anything returned, instead I end up in the debugger
2021-04-26T11:06:55Z phoe: engblom: invoke the first restart
2021-04-26T11:08:09Z flip214: pjb: no, there are quite a few S3 servers - even open-source. but nothing that "just" uses an existing local filesystem.
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2021-04-26T11:08:58Z phoe: engblom: (handler-bind ((uiop:subprocess-error (lambda (c) (invoke-restart (find-restart 'continue c))))) (uiop:run-program "ping 1.1.1.1" :force-shell t :output :string))
2021-04-26T11:09:09Z phoe: that is to do this programmatically
2021-04-26T11:09:44Z no-defun-allowed: Would (invoke-restart 'continue) suffice?
2021-04-26T11:09:54Z jackdaniel: how about (handler-bind ((uiop:subprocess-error #'continue)) …) ;?
2021-04-26T11:10:25Z no-defun-allowed: Even better.
2021-04-26T11:10:43Z phoe: oh right, I actually forgot about #'continue
2021-04-26T11:10:45Z jackdaniel: given that uiop does something sensible there and returns a string ,)
2021-04-26T11:10:57Z phoe: yes, it returns a string - I have just checked it
2021-04-26T11:11:07Z splittist: phoe: I have a book you could read about this stuff (:
2021-04-26T11:11:51Z phoe: no-defun-allowed: it would, but I'm nitpickish in the code above and want to only select continue restarts that are visible for the condition
2021-04-26T11:11:58Z jackdaniel: (defmacro foolhardy (() &body body) `(handler-bind ((serious-condition #'continue)) ,@body))
2021-04-26T11:12:00Z phoe: #'continue does all that though so it's by all means better
2021-04-26T11:12:10Z phoe: jackdaniel: what about silly conditions though
2021-04-26T11:12:23Z jackdaniel: ignoring them is not foolhardy
2021-04-26T11:13:43Z flip214: jackdaniel: name the macro ON-ERROR-GOTO-NEXT, please
2021-04-26T11:14:19Z jackdaniel waves the stick; the macro name changes on-error-goto-next
2021-04-26T11:14:25Z jackdaniel: s/changes/changes to/
2021-04-26T11:14:33Z jackdaniel: alohomora
2021-04-26T11:14:43Z flip214: oh, "On Error Resume Next" https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/office/vba/language/reference/user-interface-help/on-error-statement
2021-04-26T11:15:55Z Nilby: continue-until-an-interesting-condition
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2021-04-26T11:16:40Z splittist: (with-insouciance () ...)
2021-04-26T11:16:41Z no-defun-allowed: I assume someone made a joke like (deftype silly-condition () '(and condition (not serious-condition)))
2021-04-26T11:17:05Z engblom: I am trying to understand what the conscencus is from the question I answered. How would you write the full line in this example?
2021-04-26T11:20:25Z scymtym: no-defun-allowed: phoe, twice :)
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2021-04-26T11:22:20Z scymtym: btw, one has to be careful with CONTINUE in SBCL since the restart for trying again to call an undefined function is called CONTINUE instead of RETRY for historic(?) reasons
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2021-04-26T11:24:48Z sabra: jackdaniel: I have a question on ecl and octets (different behavior from ccl and sbcl)
2021-04-26T11:25:20Z sabra: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2405#2405 why does the result change
2021-04-26T11:26:26Z mfiano: You are modifying a literal?
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2021-04-26T11:28:22Z mfiano: Ah no
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2021-04-26T11:30:29Z beach: sabra: Why the weird symbols like LEN-ARRY, OCT-ARRAY, ARRY?
2021-04-26T11:30:35Z beach: LEN
2021-04-26T11:30:41Z jackdaniel: sabra: you don't seem to initialize the array
2021-04-26T11:30:57Z mfiano: You should be using :initial-element
2021-04-26T11:30:59Z jackdaniel: consequences of using  uninitialized array are unspecified
2021-04-26T11:31:07Z jackdaniel: s/using/reading/
2021-04-26T11:31:23Z sabra: ah. As expected. Something obvious. Thank you.
2021-04-26T11:31:26Z no-defun-allowed: All of the padding of the new vector isn't initialized to anything. And COUNTING X INTO Y is a funny way of saying FROM Y FROM 0
2021-04-26T11:32:05Z jackdaniel: (sbcl and ccl take their time to initialize them when they know how to initialize a specific type)
2021-04-26T11:33:22Z sabra: Appreciate all the comments. Thank you
2021-04-26T11:33:53Z no-defun-allowed: It can also be written much nicer with REPLACE: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2406
2021-04-26T11:34:41Z beach: Also the docstring is wrong.
2021-04-26T11:34:56Z no-defun-allowed: What should PAD-OCTET-ARRAY do if the input vector is longer than the given length? And it would not work on any array, only vectors.
2021-04-26T11:35:35Z sabra: ok. Now all I can do is laugh at myself
2021-04-26T11:37:45Z beach: no-defun-allowed: I would use an IF rather than WHEN + RETURN-FROM.
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2021-04-26T11:39:42Z no-defun-allowed: Sure, I had expected to write a longer else-form. But REPLACE returns its first argument, so it could even be written without a LET. One moment...
2021-04-26T11:40:54Z no-defun-allowed: I updated the previous paste.
2021-04-26T11:41:10Z beach: Much better!
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2021-04-26T11:42:56Z flip214: no-defun-allowed: now it _sometimes_ returns the original data, and sometimes a newly allocated copy... that might make a difference if the vector is mutated later on.
2021-04-26T11:43:11Z Shinmera: sabra: Did you ever get the time to look at Parachute?
2021-04-26T11:43:12Z flip214: perhaps you should return a copy?
2021-04-26T11:43:30Z no-defun-allowed: Still I don't like to nest e.g. LET in IF. I don't know why, it just does not look nice to me.
2021-04-26T11:43:53Z no-defun-allowed: flip214: Yes, and so did the original function. But you have a point.
2021-04-26T11:44:02Z flip214: and (- length (length vector)) could only be calculated once, and used with PLUSP or so in the IF
2021-04-26T11:44:36Z jackdaniel: would that make the program more readable?
2021-04-26T11:45:25Z flip214: jackdaniel: (IF (MINUSP padding-entries) (COPY-SEQ input) (REPLACE ... :START1 padding-entries))
2021-04-26T11:45:35Z flip214: only depends on names, which are easy, as we all know  ;)
2021-04-26T11:45:39Z mfiano: What makes it jarring to me is the arguments are split up oddly. I would move the :start1 keyword arguments to a new line.
2021-04-26T11:46:17Z flip214: or perhaps better (PLUSP ...) so if (ZEROP padding-entries) the original (or a copy) is returned
2021-04-26T11:46:43Z no-defun-allowed: Okay, you all keep working on this slightly-better-than-before code I wrote, and I'll head to bed.
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2021-04-26T11:47:55Z sabra: Shinmera: Just restarted that project. I need to look at the reporting objects and figure out how to output successful test results and failures to files.
2021-04-26T11:48:32Z Shinmera: sabra: Cool. Any reason for the file output desire?
2021-04-26T11:48:50Z Shinmera: if it's useful outside of the comparison project I could be convinced to add the functionality directly into it.
2021-04-26T11:49:03Z sabra: Shinmera: audit reports
2021-04-26T11:49:22Z Shinmera: I'm not sure I know what that means, really?
2021-04-26T11:54:26Z sabra: Someone wants to blame someone 6 months later. You can pull a file proving the data and test results worked at time A. So any failure now is from subsequent development.
2021-04-26T11:56:00Z Shinmera: Ah, I see. Hmm. Makes me wonder whether having metadata in git would be useful for that.
2021-04-26T11:57:00Z sabra: Lawyers or, in our case, a question of reproducibility of research results.
2021-04-26T11:58:24Z Shinmera: I suppose one could make a file report with all the detail that parachute captures being output to file.
2021-04-26T12:00:06Z sabra: I expect that to be relatively straight forward. I just want the success and failures to be separate files.
2021-04-26T12:00:43Z sabra: Of course, I just thought I could make an array and forgot to initialize it in public ;)
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2021-04-26T12:05:29Z Shinmera: Sure.
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2021-04-26T12:07:00Z engblom: Is there any tool for tidying up lisp source code that does a bit more than just indention? With a bit more I mean splitting long lines and such.
2021-04-26T12:07:26Z flip214: engblom: (PRINT (READ))
2021-04-26T12:08:04Z Shinmera: engblom: Not to my knowledge. The syntax rules for forms are complicated and often even need user input, for indentation alone.
2021-04-26T12:09:20Z jackdaniel: wasn't that the pretty-printer purpose?
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2021-04-26T12:14:47Z Nilby: Since I've been trying using the pretty-printer to indent code in an editor, without a level of tweaking that I haven't yet achived, as you may know, it's sometimes better than nothing, but usually not.
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2021-04-26T12:18:11Z engblom: (print ...) apparently also changes the case.
2021-04-26T12:18:15Z jackdaniel: once when I've used the pretty printer it complained about a syntax error, so I've called it a petty printer
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2021-04-26T12:19:33Z sabra: I think there are now 29 testing frameworks in quicklisp, not counting 2am or various helper libraries.
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2021-04-26T12:20:55Z Xach: sorry so few
2021-04-26T12:21:01Z Xach: i will try to add more soon
2021-04-26T12:21:20Z sabra: lol
2021-04-26T12:21:21Z jackdaniel has a local wrapper around 5am written in clim- the directory has a proud name 7am ;) but I'm not going to spoil you by publishing it!
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2021-04-26T12:25:23Z flip214: jackdaniel: so there'll be a few 7am libraries, all with incompatible extensions...
2021-04-26T12:28:14Z jackdaniel: there won't, because I'm not going to release such half-baked effort
2021-04-26T12:29:53Z Shinmera: sabra: you can count Parachute 4x due to its emulation layers :)
2021-04-26T12:29:55Z pjb: sabra: https://termbin.com/rml6
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2021-04-26T12:31:26Z flip214: jackdaniel: well, how are you gonna stop me from doing my own 7am? (1+ (1+ 5am)), a.k.a. 5am++
2021-04-26T12:31:36Z flip214: rather ++5am++
2021-04-26T12:31:59Z pjb: engblom: (let ((*print-right-margin* 72)) (loop for sexp = (read source nil source) until (eq sexp source) do (pprint sexp))) ;-) but you lose comments, and some () will be printed as NIL.
2021-04-26T12:32:23Z flip214: which makes my 7am a double-plus-good (constant) verification library ;)
2021-04-26T12:32:26Z pjb: engblom: you can set *print-case* too.
2021-04-26T12:32:30Z pjb: and others…
2021-04-26T12:33:15Z sabra: pjb: Thank you
2021-04-26T12:35:46Z pjb: sabra: perhaps you want (<= size length) instead of (= size length) ; depends on whether you want an error on (> (length vector) size) or not.
2021-04-26T12:37:32Z sabra: pjb: want an error on (> (length vector) 32). Something would be wrong in that case.
2021-04-26T12:38:07Z pjb: ok.  Then replace should give it, if compiled with (optimization (safety 3)).
2021-04-26T12:38:16Z pjb: but it may be better to signal your own error condition.
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2021-04-26T12:39:39Z pjb: sabra: errors such as Array index -8 out of bounds for #(0 … 0) .  may be cryptic.  Better provide a condition with an error message such: vector too long for pad-octet-vector.
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2021-04-26T13:16:46Z pyc: I am going to form a large string by appending to an existing string iteratively inside a loop. Is this a good approach from performance perspective? In other languages, I normally append to a StringBuffer or a list and then convert it to a string in the end. Do we need to do something similar in CL too?
2021-04-26T13:17:33Z Shinmera: clhs with-output-to-string
2021-04-26T13:17:33Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_out_.htm
2021-04-26T13:17:33Z flip214: pyc: you can use (with-output-to-string () ...) and allocate a big(-enough) string beforehand.
2021-04-26T13:17:38Z pjb: pyc: not really. You can use with-output-to-string that'd be the equivalent of a StringBuffer.
2021-04-26T13:17:51Z pjb: pyc: it is assumed that with-output-to-string is at least asymptotically O(n).
2021-04-26T13:18:19Z pjb: pyc: an alterlative, is to manage it yourself: collect your string in a list, then compute the total length, and copy them in a newly allocated string of the right size.
2021-04-26T13:18:26Z pjb: s/rla/rna/
2021-04-26T13:18:46Z pyc: Shinmera, flip214, pjb: Thanks! Is with-output-to-string definitely a better approach than concatenating iteratively to a string or it does not matter whether I concatenate or use with-output-to-string?
2021-04-26T13:19:09Z pjb: pyc: it is expected that it will definitely be better for long resulting strings.
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2021-04-26T13:19:30Z kevingal: Would (format nil "~{~a~}" list-of-strings) be blasphemous?
2021-04-26T13:19:39Z pjb: It would do too.
2021-04-26T13:19:47Z pjb: Probably similar to with-output-to-string.
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2021-04-26T13:21:58Z pjb: pyc: note that it is dependent on the implementation too. You may want to benchmark and see what works better for your (application cl-implementation) pair.
2021-04-26T13:23:39Z pjb: pyc: notably, asymptotic behavior doesn't say anything about the constants, and that's just expectation we have on implementations. Sometimes we may have surprises… (for example, on an unrelated note, reader macros are put in a sequential list in ccl, so when you have a lot of them (say on each unicode character) it becomes very slow to read stuff).
2021-04-26T13:24:33Z pjb: pyc: have a look at: https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/blob/master/common-lisp/cesarum/string.lisp#L159
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2021-04-26T13:26:56Z pjb: pyc: eg.: https://termbin.com/henl
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2021-04-26T13:28:01Z pyc: pjb: thanks!
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2021-04-26T13:35:43Z pyc: Is there an equivalent of 'continue' of other languages in CL dolist loop?
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2021-04-26T13:36:44Z pjb: (dolist (x '(1 2 3 4 5 6)) (block continue (if (oddp x) (return-from continue)) (prin1 x))) #| 246 --> nil |#
2021-04-26T13:36:53Z Bike: no. usually you just use conditionals instead.
2021-04-26T13:36:53Z Colleen: Bike: drmeister said 1 hour, 9 minutes ago:
2021-04-26T13:36:53Z Colleen: Bike: drmeister said 1 hour, 9 minutes ago: I'm getting a cascade of errors when generating backtrace...
2021-04-26T13:36:53Z Colleen: Bike: drmeister said 59 minutes, 50 seconds ago: Are you making an assumption about what the output from backtrace_symbols looks like?
2021-04-26T13:36:57Z Bike: oh, sorry.
2021-04-26T13:37:15Z heisig: pyc: The body of dolist is like a tagbody, so you can simply introduce labels and go to them.
2021-04-26T13:37:45Z pjb: (dolist (x '(1 2 3 4 5 6)) (if (oddp x) (go continue)) (prin1 x) continue) #| 246 --> nil |#
2021-04-26T13:37:58Z pjb: We often forget that some bodies are tagbodies indeed…
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2021-04-26T13:43:06Z pyc: heisig: pjb: Thanks! that works great
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2021-04-26T14:46:34Z engblom: I made a tool for tidying lisp files based upon (pprint (read)). I run it on itself and here is the result: https://pastebin.com/16QCHEw0
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2021-04-26T14:46:52Z engblom: As I am new to lisp, please comment what I should have been doing differently
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2021-04-26T14:47:32Z phoe: you can (let ((*print-case* :downcase)) ...) instead of a SETQ
2021-04-26T14:47:58Z phoe: this way (main) will have one side effect less
2021-04-26T14:48:58Z phoe: also, (loop ... do (pprint form) (terpri)) - unnecessary progn, and an explicit newline operator
2021-04-26T14:49:16Z theseb: In SICP, authors implement eval and make a point of saying to actually INVOKE functions, you need a special form called "apply".  However, in Paul Graham's "Roots of Lisp" which I've always liked he does NOT make a point of saying you need a special extra operator like apply to implement eval...why?
2021-04-26T14:49:19Z phoe: also (read in nil) is going to be buggy if the file contains a literal () (which is possible)
2021-04-26T14:49:33Z theseb: http://www.paulgraham.com/rootsoflisp.html < -- Roots of Lisp paper
2021-04-26T14:50:51Z heisig: engblom: You should use some library for handling command line options, at least once your programs grow larger.  Something like https://github.com/didierverna/clon
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2021-04-26T14:51:19Z phoe: theseb: likely because the syntax of RoL's lisp allows for ((lambda ...) ...) style which is an implicit APPLY
2021-04-26T14:51:29Z engblom: Thanks!
2021-04-26T14:51:55Z Bike: is that an explicit apply? that doesn't seem like an explicit apply.
2021-04-26T14:52:02Z heisig: engblom: Apart from that and the use of SETQ, that's a neat little program.  Welcome to Lisp, try not to get too addicted :)
2021-04-26T14:52:40Z Bike: implicit
2021-04-26T14:52:42Z Bike: bleh
2021-04-26T14:52:52Z phoe: Bike: oh wait
2021-04-26T14:52:54Z Bike: also, apply is not a special form or operator, it's a function
2021-04-26T14:53:02Z phoe: does RoL allow for functions as values?
2021-04-26T14:53:28Z Bike: not sure
2021-04-26T14:53:32Z theseb: phoe: nice....i like that better...thanks for pointing that out
2021-04-26T14:53:34Z phoe: because it doesn't seem so; that would explain the lack of APPLY
2021-04-26T14:53:35Z Bike: i don't see it in the definition of eval
2021-04-26T14:54:07Z phoe: Bike: but then, EVAL. has a case for LAMBDA
2021-04-26T14:54:14Z Bike: yeah, but just a lambda form, isn't it?
2021-04-26T14:54:20Z Bike: like it handles ((lambda ...) ...)
2021-04-26T14:54:21Z phoe: so in theory you could pass the list form of a lambda and then call eval on it
2021-04-26T14:54:23Z phoe: yes
2021-04-26T14:54:49Z Bike: i think mostly roots of lisp is a sloppy (or, more charitably, simplified) article that shouldn't be relied on for details
2021-04-26T14:54:52Z phoe: and, if a list '((lambda ...) ...) is your function call, then evaling it is the implicit APPLY I meant
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2021-04-26T14:56:15Z theseb: Bike: i suspect RoL made a lot if Lisp fans...I've personally been more fascinated with the RoL than I'd care to admit
2021-04-26T14:56:15Z pjb: Bike: "article" you're generous. Nothing like that.  It's a mere "memo", two dactylographed pages to let know fellow searchers of the AI Lab what John was up to.  Namely, AIM-8: http://informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/aim-8/index.html
2021-04-26T14:56:25Z pjb: (AI labs Memo #8).
2021-04-26T14:56:26Z phoe: except for one thing I guess - we need the environment
2021-04-26T14:56:46Z jcowan: You can write aa simple APPLY-EVAL pair that constitute a classical Lisp interpreter.  Needless to say, few Lisps around today actually provide this.
2021-04-26T14:56:47Z phoe: eval. accepts the form to be evaluated and the environment - do we have access to it inside RoL itself?
2021-04-26T14:57:12Z phoe: because if we have that, we don't really need an application operator
2021-04-26T14:57:29Z Bike: theseb: simplicity over accuracy is helpful for that kind of article
2021-04-26T14:57:39Z Bike: if it laid out denotational semantics or something you would have slept through it
2021-04-26T14:57:59Z phoe: and since it's just Lisp data, I guess we can make a special form that returns the current environment that can then be passed to eval. again
2021-04-26T14:58:38Z engblom: I did not go for the libary for parsing arguments at this point, as this tool will probably never grow. I fixed the rest: https://pastebin.com/TuZrmfn2
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2021-04-26T15:00:26Z phoe: if the only argument is just a single namestring, then simplicity's gonna work well
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2021-04-26T15:01:01Z phoe: my nitpick would be using FIRST instead of CAR but that's a nitpick
2021-04-26T15:01:23Z theseb: phoe: i know right?....i vote we bury car and cdr forever
2021-04-26T15:01:28Z phoe: also SYNTAX-ERROR is a slight misnomer because it does not really signal a CL error; maybe name it PRINT-HELP-DIALOG instead?
2021-04-26T15:01:41Z pjb: engblom: https://termbin.com/ve5n
2021-04-26T15:01:46Z phoe: theseb: actually when you have stuff like ((1 . 2) . 3) I'd be scared to use first/rest on it
2021-04-26T15:02:00Z phoe: first/rest kinda imply that the structure being operated on is a proper list
2021-04-26T15:02:04Z theseb: phoe: i also think lists should be vectors
2021-04-26T15:02:05Z phoe: whereas car/cdr don't
2021-04-26T15:02:14Z phoe: theseb: begone, heretic
2021-04-26T15:02:16Z theseb: phoe: and never expose the cons side of things
2021-04-26T15:02:23Z theseb: phoe: heh
2021-04-26T15:02:27Z phoe: :D
2021-04-26T15:02:30Z shka_: theseb: lol
2021-04-26T15:02:31Z Bike: lists being vectors makes some kinds of processing more annoying
2021-04-26T15:02:39Z phoe: well, clojure sort of went this way
2021-04-26T15:02:47Z phoe: but that's already ##lisp material
2021-04-26T15:02:49Z pjb: theseb: APPLY is not a special operator, it's a primitive function.  FUNCALL can be implemented calling APPLY but the reverse cannot be.
2021-04-26T15:03:04Z engblom: pjb: Thank you very much!
2021-04-26T15:03:19Z pjb: engblom: cf *print-right-margin*
2021-04-26T15:03:47Z pjb: engblom: and yes, since they are global variables, you don't want to mess with the code in the other threads, or to mutate them for the rest of the REPL session. So use LET.
2021-04-26T15:03:59Z theseb: pjb: wow....i was assuming primitive function == special form == special operator....didn't know people here distinguished between those terms
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2021-04-26T15:05:57Z phoe: theseb: people, d'oh
2021-04-26T15:06:01Z phoe: even CL recognizes it
2021-04-26T15:06:06Z phoe: (special-operator-p 'cl:apply) ;=> NIL
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2021-04-26T15:06:44Z phoe: but, yeah, the fact that some CL operators are functions does not mean that they can be expressed in terms of anything else
2021-04-26T15:06:49Z pjb: theseb: (if (= a b) 'yep 'nope) is a special form. IF is the special operator.  APPLY is a "primitive" function in that it cannot be implemented in lisp without using metalinguistic abstraction.  In the case of Common Lisp, all the functions in CL can be open-coded, which means they could be considered like special operators in a way. But special operators are a more specific set of 37 operators in CL.  Note that macros in CL ca
2021-04-26T15:06:49Z pjb: implemented as special operators technically, but the implementation still has to provide an equivalent macro for users of MACROEXPAND.
2021-04-26T15:06:50Z phoe: APPLY is a prime example of that
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2021-04-26T15:08:05Z Bike: "special operator" means an operator with special evaluation semantics. apply has the same evaluation semantics as any other function: in (apply a b), a and b are forms to be evaluated. so it's not special.
2021-04-26T15:08:06Z pjb: in any case, that doesn't mean that you cannot implement everything in CL. It's just that there's one level of metalinguistic abstraction required (ie. a compiler or an interpreter).
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2021-04-26T15:10:57Z _death: pjb: 37? is that from CLtL3?
2021-04-26T15:11:36Z phoe: clhs 3.1.2.1.2.1
2021-04-26T15:11:36Z specbot: Special Forms: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_ababa.htm
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2021-04-26T15:20:26Z pjb: _death: or 35? I'm confusing odd numbers…
2021-04-26T15:20:46Z _death: (let ((c 0)) (do-external-symbols (sym "CL") (when (special-operator-p sym) (incf c))) c) => 25
2021-04-26T15:21:01Z pjb: (let ((n 0)) (do-symbols (s "CL" n) (when (special-operator-p s) (incf n)))) #| --> 25 |#
2021-04-26T15:21:04Z pjb: yep.
2021-04-26T15:21:09Z pjb: 25.
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2021-04-26T15:22:20Z pjb: Don't worry, it's just a cosmic ray flipping a bit in my memory.
2021-04-26T15:25:02Z _death: (hamming 25 37) => 4 ;)
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2021-04-26T15:30:06Z jcowan: Vectors are just lists with mutable cars and immutable cdrs.  :-)
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2021-04-26T16:22:50Z jcowan: okay, okay, simple vectors.
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2021-04-26T16:51:24Z Josh_2: Good afternoon
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2021-04-26T16:56:22Z Josh_2: I tell you sometimes I end up baffled that I didn't know I could do certain things
2021-04-26T16:56:40Z Josh_2: I'm sat here thinking I wonder if there is a destructuring-plist, turns out you can just destructure a plist using &key ...
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2021-04-26T17:01:40Z Bike: http://ix.io/3cvy here is how i would do a roots of lisp thing. makes the difference between a special operator and built in function clearer. would be more involved to make it self hosting, though
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2021-04-26T17:45:17Z pjb: pyc: https://termbin.com/athh
2021-04-26T17:46:22Z pjb: pyc: note how concatenate-string is faster when you have more than between 50000 and 100000 strings to concatenate. (may also depend on the length of the strings).
2021-04-26T17:46:56Z pjb: pyc: but when you have 100 strings, with-output-string is faster (in ccl);
2021-04-26T17:47:29Z pjb: pyc: but when you have about 1000 strings, apply-concat is faster (in ccl, and given that call-arguments-limit #| --> 65536 |# );
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2021-04-26T17:51:45Z copec: speaking of destructuring plists, a snip from the project I'm working on Josh_2 https://unaen.org/pb/1ym
2021-04-26T17:52:08Z copec: I wonder if there is a better way to do uri->string
2021-04-26T17:52:30Z phoe: can't destructuring-bind with &key help here?
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2021-04-26T17:53:15Z phoe: (d-b (&key (scheme (scheme uri)) (userinfo (userinfo uri)) ...) uri-keys ...)
2021-04-26T17:55:12Z copec: hrmm
2021-04-26T17:55:32Z Josh_2: well from what I just learned you can use (destructuring-bind (&key <your keys> &allow-other-keys) <your plist> <body>) to destructure a plist
2021-04-26T17:55:53Z phoe: yes, that's what I was thinking of
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2021-04-26T17:56:59Z copec: perhaps if I just make uri a plist
2021-04-26T18:00:04Z Josh_2: plists are great :D
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2021-04-26T18:03:47Z phoe: plists are the last step before defclass/defstruct
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2021-04-26T18:33:05Z jackdaniel: hash tables are the last step because they always preserve identity
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2021-04-26T18:43:19Z flip214: copec: do you know the puri and quri libraries?
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2021-04-26T19:09:51Z pjb: About SBCL 2.1.3, I wonder why I get "Control stack exhausted during signal emulation: PC: 52077ee2" crashes, when call-arguments-limit is 4611686018427387903 ?
2021-04-26T19:09:51Z pjb:  
2021-04-26T19:09:52Z pjb: Pfft!
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2021-04-26T19:12:12Z MrFantastik: https://www.grammarly.com/blog/engineering/running-lisp-in-production/
2021-04-26T19:12:46Z MrFantastik: TIL grammarly uses lisp
2021-04-26T19:13:08Z jackdaniel: I believe that also roomba robots use/used it
2021-04-26T19:14:05Z MrFantastik: oh man imagine being able to attach to a roomba repl
2021-04-26T19:16:08Z MrFantastik: I wish the article went a little more in depth on there proccesses though
2021-04-26T19:16:18Z MrFantastik: seems like mostly fluff :/
2021-04-26T19:21:43Z pjb: pyc: more benchmarks: https://termbin.com/l68o
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2021-04-26T19:48:20Z dieggsy: does anyone have a syntax-highlighted slime setup they can share?
2021-04-26T19:50:06Z White_Flame: slime has syntax highlighting by default, doesn't it?
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2021-04-26T19:57:51Z dieggsy: White_Flame: not the repl AFAIK, no
2021-04-26T19:58:16Z White_Flame: ah, ok
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2021-04-26T20:02:59Z copec: anything more then one line I dump in a file in another buffer and ctrl-c-c each form anyways
2021-04-26T20:03:16Z copec: I wish I was a movie-haxor
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2021-04-26T20:05:29Z copec: for quick playing around from a shell I like clisp because gnu readline
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2021-04-26T20:06:33Z copec: Even though for most of my programming I use sbcl, I wish clisp would have been the python
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2021-04-26T20:10:54Z copec: I hadn't, thanks flip214
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2021-04-26T20:14:08Z dieggsy: copec: i've just installed sbcl-readline and it works well
2021-04-26T20:15:07Z copec: I'll give that a try
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2021-04-26T20:47:50Z copec: #osdev is pretty popular, there should be a #lispdev, where people hang out who have reached the phase of trying to bootstrap their own lisp
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2021-04-26T20:56:57Z White_Flame: #clasp and #sicl have gotten their own
2021-04-26T20:57:24Z White_Flame: but enough of lispdev chatter does happen here & in ##lisp when it comes up
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2021-04-26T20:57:52Z White_Flame: not enough to be overwhelming
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2021-04-26T21:34:42Z dieggsy: FWIW this seems to work ok https://stackoverflow.com/questions/25809493/how-can-i-get-syntax-highlighting-for-common-lisp-in-slimes-repl#26050762
2021-04-26T21:34:57Z dieggsy: i changed it to lisp-font-lock-keywords instead of keywords-2... not really sure...
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2021-04-26T21:36:51Z dieggsy: oh, it's for the highlight level. interesting
2021-04-26T21:36:56Z dieggsy: it's also best to use lisp-cl-font-lock-keywords intsead
2021-04-26T21:37:07Z opcode: if i specify a literal as #o00 is that the null byte \00?  coming from the C-family and finding lisp's type system very unintuitive
2021-04-26T21:38:28Z moon-child: opcode: in cl, characters and numbers have different types.  So #o00 is another way to get the number 0
2021-04-26T21:38:51Z moon-child: if you want to make a character from a number, use code-char.  e.g. (code-char 0) ←→ #\nul
2021-04-26T21:39:03Z moon-child: (and use char-code to go the other way)
2021-04-26T21:39:21Z opcode: i'm fiddling around with ironclad, and I want to make an initialization vector for AES that's just 0x00's.  Is #\nul what I want?
2021-04-26T21:39:30Z Xach: opcode: no. 0 is what you want.
2021-04-26T21:39:38Z Xach: or #x0, or #b0, or #o0
2021-04-26T21:40:02Z opcode: okay thx
2021-04-26T21:40:11Z Xach: if you want a vector of 0, (make-array <size> :initial-element 0) would make it.
2021-04-26T21:40:28Z opcode: ah ha, well that brings me to my next question
2021-04-26T21:40:49Z opcode: can i do #(0 0 0 0 0 0 0 ...) ?
2021-04-26T21:41:01Z opcode: because ironclad wants simple-arrays of unsigned bytes
2021-04-26T21:41:16Z opcode: but it's not clear to me from reading the hyperspec what exactly is equivalent to what
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2021-04-26T21:41:32Z moon-child: (make-array 10 :element-type 'unsigned-byte :initial-element 0)
2021-04-26T21:41:48Z moon-child: possibly substitute '(unsigned-byte 8) for 'unsigned-byte
2021-04-26T21:42:08Z Xach: moon-child: yeah, UNSIGNED-BYTE is unlikely to be useful, as it upgrades to T
2021-04-26T21:42:23Z moon-child: right
2021-04-26T21:42:26Z Xach: opcode: #(...) will not produce the specialized array you need.
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2021-04-26T21:42:50Z lotuseater: ha yes thought the same ^^ just like with 'STRING
2021-04-26T21:43:22Z opcode: k.  i find the docs very dense, but perhaps that's just because I have no formal CS training :/
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2021-04-26T21:43:54Z opcode: appreciate the help
2021-04-26T21:44:02Z lotuseater: opcode: i think that's one thing that is left to the implementation
2021-04-26T21:45:14Z Xach: opcode: i think ironclad is probably most useful if you already know generally how the algorithms are set up and used and you just need a reference for use
2021-04-26T21:45:29Z Xach: i don't always know how to give it what it wants, and i've used it a lot
2021-04-26T21:46:24Z opcode: yeah it's very, uh, particular about how it wants inputs haha
2021-04-26T21:47:11Z opcode: not just ironclad's docs though... the hyperspec itself is pretty dense
2021-04-26T21:47:18Z opcode: i read portions of it and I feel like it's not even english
2021-04-26T21:50:23Z moon-child: standards documents are frequently like that.  You have to learn to read standardese ;)
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2021-04-26T22:06:19Z pjb: opcode: (make-array 4 :element-type 'character :initial-element #\null) #| --> "
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2021-04-26T22:06:56Z pjb: opcode: (make-array 4 :initial-contents '(#\null 0 nil "nope")) #| --> #(#\Null 0 nil "nope") |#  ;-)
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2021-04-26T22:15:15Z Xach: i find the hyperspec to be a fantastic reference, but it helps that i've spent a long time getting used to how it presents info.
2021-04-26T22:15:25Z Xach: there are nice documents that are more tutorialistic
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2021-04-26T22:36:47Z copec: It is fantastic after you get it :-P If I don't understanding something, it's like it falls on deaf ears until I already understand it
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2021-04-26T23:31:30Z Josh_2: Has anyone here used #0A before?
2021-04-26T23:32:06Z Josh_2: zero dimensional arrays
2021-04-26T23:32:58Z White_Flame: only briefly to test out some weird identities
2021-04-26T23:33:19Z ebrasca: Is there a way to compile the faster version of some fuction in compile time?
2021-04-26T23:33:47Z Josh_2: a compiler macro?
2021-04-26T23:34:03Z moon-child: Josh_2: in apl, a scalar is a 0-dimensional array
2021-04-26T23:34:13Z ebrasca: If you have multiple versions of some funtion for diferent cpu architectures.
2021-04-26T23:34:27Z White_Flame: I made a (defmacro fast-body (&body body) ...) which just wraps the body in a locally declare optimize
2021-04-26T23:34:31Z White_Flame: wrap that around a defun
2021-04-26T23:34:47Z ebrasca: Or if you have hardware sopport or not.
2021-04-26T23:34:56Z White_Flame: ah, yeah that sounds like a compiler macro
2021-04-26T23:35:24Z ebrasca: How can you make sure the bens algorith is chosen?
2021-04-26T23:35:43Z ebrasca: bens->best
2021-04-26T23:36:17Z White_Flame: I don't understand the situation.  Where are the algorithms listed?
2021-04-26T23:36:35Z Josh_2: maybe you could use #.<some hardware feature> <my compiler macro for that hardware>
2021-04-26T23:36:42Z Josh_2: wait sorry #+ not #.
2021-04-26T23:36:49Z White_Flame: If you have multiple versions for different architectures, there will probably be #+ based compilation or file inclusion somewhere to select between them
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2021-04-26T23:37:27Z White_Flame: so only 1 version is probably in existence?  the other thing affecting it would be optimization declarations
2021-04-26T23:37:37Z White_Flame: s/in existence/manifested/
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2021-04-26T23:42:18Z ebrasca: I am just implementing CRC in CL. Probably overthinknig it.
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2021-04-27T02:00:17Z ebrasca: How to reverse a integer? For example #b10000010 -> b01000001.
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2021-04-27T02:06:16Z no-defun-allowed: Is this for implementing CRC?
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2021-04-27T02:06:33Z ebrasca: Yes
2021-04-27T02:07:24Z ebrasca: Input reflected and Result reflected
2021-04-27T02:07:44Z no-defun-allowed: Which one is this? CRC32?
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2021-04-27T02:09:54Z ebrasca: It is generolized , I did test 8 , 16 , 32
2021-04-27T02:10:24Z ebrasca: (make-crc crc-name width polynomial)
2021-04-27T02:10:37Z pjb: ebrasca: integers have infinite length in Common Lisp.  How do yo fetch a bit at ∞ to put it at 0?
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2021-04-27T02:11:05Z ebrasca: pjb: I work with n bits.
2021-04-27T02:11:14Z no-defun-allowed doesn't recall a practical CRC32 algorithm reversing any bits.
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2021-04-27T02:11:26Z ebrasca: pjb: For crc32 32 bits.
2021-04-27T02:11:49Z no-defun-allowed: Something like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclic_redundancy_check#CRC-32_algorithm no?
2021-04-27T02:11:59Z ebrasca: no-defun-allowed: Is it good idea for me to ignore that part?
2021-04-27T02:12:18Z ebrasca: http://www.sunshine2k.de/articles/coding/crc/understanding_crc.html
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2021-04-27T02:12:59Z ebrasca: I am now in this part http://www.sunshine2k.de/articles/coding/crc/understanding_crc.html#ch71
2021-04-27T02:13:01Z White_Flame: convert to bit vector, call nreverse, convert back \:D/
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2021-04-27T02:13:21Z no-defun-allowed: I don't think you will do any bit-wise CRC for a filesystem, only on bytes.
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2021-04-27T02:14:33Z ebrasca: no-defun-allowed: What do you mean?
2021-04-27T02:14:57Z ebrasca: White_Flame: How?
2021-04-27T02:15:12Z White_Flame: expensive looping
2021-04-27T02:15:42Z White_Flame: but still, unless there's some weird superoptimizer style trick to bit order reversal, you'll probably still have to loop
2021-04-27T02:16:12Z White_Flame: or make some lookup tables and do it in batches
2021-04-27T02:16:26Z ebrasca: I was expecting you to tell me this method.
2021-04-27T02:16:35Z no-defun-allowed: ebrasca: Any real implementation of CRC for a filesystem would use a byte-wise loop, not bitwise, and there is no reversal there.
2021-04-27T02:17:01Z ebrasca: no-defun-allowed: It is a tutorias , see later.
2021-04-27T02:17:09Z White_Flame: ah, here's a reasonable method in log2 time: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/2602823/in-c-c-whats-the-simplest-way-to-reverse-the-order-of-bits-in-a-byte/2602885#2602885
2021-04-27T02:17:10Z dieggsy: way back in the day (lol just a few years ago) i had found some way to have a running SBCL process and write scripts that would like connect to it, does anyone know what i'm referring to ?
2021-04-27T02:17:34Z dieggsy: i don't think i was manually connecting to a swank server, though that may have been what the tool was doing
2021-04-27T02:17:42Z ebrasca: I think I don't need to add thah feature then.
2021-04-27T02:17:42Z moon-child: White_Flame: why is that log2?
2021-04-27T02:17:45Z ebrasca: Thanks!
2021-04-27T02:17:58Z moon-child: that's constant for a given byte, or linear for a sequence (in its length)
2021-04-27T02:18:05Z White_Flame: for 32-bits, it takes 5 steps.  For 16 bits it woudl take 4, etc
2021-04-27T02:18:27Z White_Flame: erm, minus one
2021-04-27T02:18:33Z ebrasca: It seems expensive.
2021-04-27T02:18:42Z pjb: ebrasca: https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/hackers-delight/0201914654/0201914654_ch07lev1sec1.html
2021-04-27T02:18:44Z moon-child: ebrasca: yes, you probably want a per-byte lookup table
2021-04-27T02:19:20Z pjb: ebrasca: https://github.com/hcs0/Hackers-Delight/blob/master/reverse.c.txt
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2021-04-27T02:22:24Z White_Flame: hmm, with 4 bytes to look up and re-merge, that pairwise reversal's 5 steps for reversing a 32-bit word might be shorter/faster
2021-04-27T02:23:09Z White_Flame: but yeah, feel free to try the various options in pjb's links for the really weird and potentailly shorter solutions
2021-04-27T02:25:47Z dieggsy: oh, it may have been scriptl that i was using then
2021-04-27T02:27:02Z dieggsy: is that a all still recommendable (or was it ever) ?
2021-04-27T02:29:38Z moon-child: http://graphics.stanford.edu/~seander/bithacks.html#BitReverseObvious  has a few methods
2021-04-27T02:29:59Z pjb: Now, when you have specific operations that can be thus optimized (don't forget the logand etc to ensure 32-bit operations are performed on the intermediaries), such algorithms are ok.  But if you had some generic bit manipulations to perform, of various kinds, one way to do it in lisp would be to convert the integer into a bit-vector.
2021-04-27T02:30:26Z pjb: Then you can manipulate the bit-vector with any array or sequence operator. replace, reverse, aref, find, etc.
2021-04-27T02:30:30Z pjb: subseq.
2021-04-27T02:31:22Z pjb: Of course, it would be nice if there was an implementation operation to do that perhaps in a more efficient way than looping on logbitp…
2021-04-27T02:31:41Z ebrasca: Here my crc how I have it now http://ix.io/3e0u
2021-04-27T02:32:24Z ebrasca: I did remove compute-crc*-simple
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2021-04-27T02:37:57Z dieggsy: ah, scriptl is broken. nice lol.
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2021-04-27T02:42:14Z ebrasca: Do you have some name recomendations for my crc lybrary?
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2021-04-27T02:50:28Z asarch: Does Melpa have a mirror?
2021-04-27T02:50:48Z asarch: "Contacting host: melpa.org:443" -> "Failed to download ‘melpa’ archive."
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2021-04-27T03:07:17Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-04-27T03:09:17Z dieggsy: mernin
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2021-04-27T04:02:19Z dieggsy: ooh, does anyone have strong opinions on sly vs slime ?
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2021-04-27T04:03:36Z beach: Not a "vs" opinion, but I think both are sub-optimal and we should work to get something better.
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2021-04-27T04:05:59Z dieggsy: lmao
2021-04-27T04:06:06Z dieggsy: sly has better completion for what that's worth
2021-04-27T04:06:21Z dieggsy: or at least, it works better out of the box for me
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2021-04-27T04:06:54Z beach: In what way is it better?
2021-04-27T04:07:07Z beach: I haven't used sly, so it's an honest question.
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2021-04-27T04:11:36Z beach: OK, so let's take an example.  Say you have:
2021-04-27T04:11:40Z beach: (let ((multiple-value-bla 234))<newline>  (f multiple-value-b
2021-04-27T04:11:43Z beach: in a buffer.
2021-04-27T04:12:08Z beach: Now complete.  With SLIME, I use C-c C-i.
2021-04-27T04:12:22Z beach: What is the expansion?
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2021-04-27T04:14:32Z beach: The cursor should be after the multiple-value-b by the way.
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2021-04-27T04:15:06Z moon-child: is there a general solution to that (that doesn't require special knowledge of the 'let' form)?  You would have to macroexpand 'let' with a partial body (or, more charitably, a body with a hole in it) in order to infer that 'multiple-value-bla' were bound at the point of the cursor.  All that without knowing the end of the body
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2021-04-27T04:15:54Z beach: So, we should analyze the buffer that way.  Why should we settle for a lousy approximation?
2021-04-27T04:16:58Z moon-child: I'm not saying we should settle, I'm genuinely curious how you would solve that problem
2021-04-27T04:17:21Z dieggsy: beach:  ? it suggests multiple-value-bla
2021-04-27T04:17:36Z beach: dieggsy: Suggests?
2021-04-27T04:17:41Z dieggsy: well, i'm using company-mode
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2021-04-27T04:17:47Z dieggsy: well, it's using company-mode
2021-04-27T04:18:07Z beach: dieggsy: Does it "suggest" anything else?
2021-04-27T04:18:51Z moon-child: (I suppose one solution would be to have the editor automatically insert closing parentheses, but I find such 'features' jarring)
2021-04-27T04:18:56Z dieggsy: beach: oof, actually nevermind i guess, it's all over the place now
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2021-04-27T04:19:22Z dieggsy: moon-child: huh. i basically never work without paren auto-closing
2021-04-27T04:19:25Z beach: moon-child: Eclector would fill in the rest of the buffer so that we get (let ((multiple-value-bla)) (f multiple-value-b<cursor>)), then we would take the CST and convert it to an AST to get the role of each identifier.
2021-04-27T04:19:34Z moon-child: (I think structural editors would be a good solution, but those would require a somewhat radical rearchitecturing of editing and dynamic analysis infrastructure)
2021-04-27T04:19:44Z dieggsy: beach: i'm just trying it out for the first time too FWIW
2021-04-27T04:20:10Z beach: dieggsy: I still don't understand what "suggestions" you got.
2021-04-27T04:20:11Z moon-child: beach: how do you infer the )) at the end?  It seems very easy, in more complex scenarious, to get that wrong
2021-04-27T04:20:45Z beach: moon-child: It can't always get it right, but the simple solution is often correct.  Eclector has a bunch of restarts for that kind of stuff.
2021-04-27T04:21:25Z dieggsy: beach: i'm not entirely sure how this is working yet. at first when i tried it, it suggested multiple-value-bla *only*, as in, in a completion popup. when i went back and tried it however, it suggested multiple-value-bind, multiple-value-call, everything *but* multiple-value-bla lol
2021-04-27T04:21:35Z dieggsy: so much for that i suppose
2021-04-27T04:21:48Z dieggsy: still, i'm willing to give it a try and see how it stacks up i guess. meh
2021-04-27T04:23:25Z dieggsy: ..you can get multiple-value-bind completed from mvbind too. it's using some kind of fuzzy completion.
2021-04-27T04:23:41Z beach: dieggsy: Here is another thing you can try to compare between the two.  Type (let ((hello<newline> and observe where the cursor is located.  It is under the `e' in hello in SLIME.  Now try (let ((prog1<newline> and observe the cursor positionh.
2021-04-27T04:23:44Z beach: *position.
2021-04-27T04:24:24Z beach: dieggsy: My point is that multiple-value-bind should not be a suggestion since there is no such variable in scope.
2021-04-27T04:25:22Z dieggsy: beach: it's under the E in sly for the first example, under the g in the second
2021-04-27T04:25:34Z beach: And why on earth would it do that?
2021-04-27T04:25:51Z beach: PROG1 is a lexical variable introduced by LET and not a special operator.
2021-04-27T04:26:18Z beach: In fact, SLIME (or Emacs) nicely highlights the PROG1 for me as well, as if I should want that.
2021-04-27T04:26:37Z dieggsy: beach: wait, what does slime do
2021-04-27T04:27:02Z beach: It puts the cursor under the `g' and draws the prog1 in purple.
2021-04-27T04:27:08Z dieggsy: oh, ok. so the same
2021-04-27T04:27:19Z dieggsy: ....so your point is they're equally bad
2021-04-27T04:27:23Z beach: And I am asking, "why on earth would it do that?
2021-04-27T04:27:28Z beach: Yes.
2021-04-27T04:27:40Z dieggsy: which is fine. but i guess for you then, i'm asking: which is less bad? lol
2021-04-27T04:27:48Z beach: I was hoping that sly would be better as you said.
2021-04-27T04:28:07Z dieggsy: well, i only said that specifically completion seemed better out of the box
2021-04-27T04:28:42Z beach: Granted.
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2021-04-27T04:29:09Z dieggsy: beach: wait, so do you use emacs or slime at all in this case?
2021-04-27T04:29:22Z beach: But I have just had enough with substandard software, so I am not up to comparing badness.
2021-04-27T04:29:24Z dieggsy: we talkin like, command line repl + ed or something here? heh
2021-04-27T04:30:04Z beach: I am using Emacs + SLIME because that's the best I know, though perhaps SLY is better.  But I am also working on creating something much better.
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2021-04-27T04:31:27Z beach: Every day, I also use a crappy operating system that is the best one available (as far as I know).
2021-04-27T04:32:14Z dieggsy: lol
2021-04-27T04:32:42Z dieggsy: this is all fine, but just like a let binds variables in a particular scope, we can ask questions within a particular practical scope
2021-04-27T04:33:12Z dieggsy: so you can have practical opinions and recommendations on existing software despite none of it being optimal
2021-04-27T04:33:18Z dieggsy: nothing ever will be if you go deep enough
2021-04-27T04:34:16Z beach: I think we can do much better than what we have, and I think my time is better spent trying to accomplish something better, than comparing several sub-optimal solutions.
2021-04-27T04:35:00Z beach: We can at least analyze the buffer contents as well as a compiler does.  I don't see any reason to do worse than that.
2021-04-27T04:35:05Z dieggsy: that works when you have that time, but when you need to get something done now (or in the interim), you still need to compare the sub-optimal solutions
2021-04-27T04:35:53Z dieggsy: in fact, as you've stated, you're using those sub-optimal solutions to accomplish the better thing. so the question "which sub-optimal solution should i use" isn't a useless one
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2021-04-27T04:37:31Z beach: Sure, however, if I estimate that the differences are small, then I would spend more time comparing than what they deserve, and that would take up time.  So I would need some indication that the difference is significant before I take time to compare.
2021-04-27T04:37:47Z beach: That's why I asked you those questions.
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2021-04-27T04:39:28Z dieggsy: beach: and tbh, i do appreciate that, i learned some things along the way and gained useful insights about these tools, so cheers
2021-04-27T04:39:58Z beach: My point is also that, if everyone needs to get things "done now", then we are collectively going to waste a lot of time on sub-optimal tools.  So it would be better if each one took a little time to improve the tools so that everyone could become more productive.
2021-04-27T04:40:46Z dieggsy: i think i'd agree on that. there's a line between practicality and complacency
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2021-04-27T04:41:59Z ChoHag: Just saying, in all this time, you could have typed in 'bla' and moved on to figuring out how to make the computer guess what you're thinking of for the next expression.
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2021-04-27T04:44:08Z beach was apparently unable to get the message across, so will now be quiet. 
2021-04-27T04:45:05Z Nilby: beach: I very much agree we can do better, and it's werid, because I'm usually very dissatisfied with it, but the completion I usually use in emacs (based on dabbrev-expand) expands to "multiple-value-bla" in that case. But I know it's cheating and I want it to be real syntax aware too.
2021-04-27T04:47:20Z Nilby: I've worked on parser based completion, but it too has a number of problems, and seems to be aided by statistical completion.
2021-04-27T04:48:01Z beach: Again, I don't see why the editor couldn't do what the compiler does in order to determine what is in scope.
2021-04-27T04:49:20Z dieggsy: ChoHag: lol
2021-04-27T04:49:38Z White_Flame: bla
2021-04-27T04:49:41Z Nilby: It should be able to, it's just not always what you want. But maybe it should be a first guess.
2021-04-27T04:49:49Z White_Flame: hmm, I'm no closer to advancing the state of things in such a time
2021-04-27T04:50:07Z White_Flame: I think I'm better off complaining & working as well
2021-04-27T04:50:11Z White_Flame: stay mad, folks
2021-04-27T04:50:12Z Nilby: After about (* 1000 bla) it starts to pay off though.
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2021-04-27T04:51:45Z Nilby: or one hard to find bug based when you typed multiple-value-ble instead
2021-04-27T04:52:18Z ChoHag: See, everyone always concentrates on the 'bla' and disregards the rest.
2021-04-27T04:52:59Z Nilby: Also multiply the time saved by all the other people that can use your better completion.
2021-04-27T04:53:05Z ChoHag: I'm working on this, fwiw, by removing as far as possible the distinction between editor and compiler.
2021-04-27T04:54:21Z dieggsy: ChoHag: I dunno if you're being serious but that's a fascinating statement
2021-04-27T04:54:35Z ChoHag: I am.
2021-04-27T04:55:11Z Nilby: ChoHag: I'm pretty sure that's what beach is working towards too.
2021-04-27T04:55:33Z ChoHag: Sounds like he's working on something out of the ordinary, certainly.
2021-04-27T04:55:52Z ChoHag: That's good. We need unorthodox ideas.
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2021-04-27T04:57:03Z ChoHag: Unfortunately I'm surrounded by huge, shaggy yaks and my razor is blunt.
2021-04-27T04:58:56Z Nilby: ChoHag: Same. The weight of yaks sitting on your average developer, or even lispers, is nearly crushing.
2021-04-27T04:58:57Z ChoHag: Also fwiw, the point of my snide comment was not "type bla and move on" but of the larger question of trying to make the computer guess what you want with(out) giving it context.
2021-04-27T04:59:28Z ChoHag: And that in that game, tab-completion is kicking the tires.
2021-04-27T05:00:28Z ChoHag: Well it's emacs, so it's control-c-control-i-completion.
2021-04-27T05:02:17Z ChoHag: Nilby: One particularly frustrating problem, and ironic since I'm doing exactly that, is the way perfectly good code remains unused while a new implementation gets written.
2021-04-27T05:03:44Z White_Flame: and that's the point of sicl if I understand correctly
2021-04-27T05:04:04Z Nilby: Agree. There's also a large weight of good but forgotten code, that's too overwhelming for me to think about.
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2021-04-27T05:10:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: At one point I realized that many people don't use: https://github.com/anwyn/slime-company
2021-04-27T05:11:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: It doesn't distinguish between operator and arugment positions and it's annoying in a couple ways, but its main advantage is that it works by querying your lisp system to determine what symbols are available
2021-04-27T05:12:04Z dieggsy: ah, i actually am using that with slime
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2021-04-27T05:12:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: cool, I shared it somewhere at one point and was surprised by the people who didn't know about it
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2021-04-27T05:13:44Z ChoHag: fiddlerwoaroof: That's exactly the sort of thing I mean.
2021-04-27T05:13:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'd really like a better completion system, but it seems to me that any particular strategy for completions is going to have annoying edge cases
2021-04-27T05:14:34Z ChoHag: It should be unthinkable that the system doesn't somehow make slime users aware that slime-company is available, at least.
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2021-04-27T05:14:51Z ChoHag: But without going full xanadu.
2021-04-27T05:14:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't know how you solve that problem
2021-04-27T05:15:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: I have all sorts of handy utilities on my laptop that no one can use because I haven't advertised them :)
2021-04-27T05:15:32Z ChoHag: They're not available then are they?
2021-04-27T05:15:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: slime-company is easy enough to find using normal emacs commands, though
2021-04-27T05:16:02Z ChoHag: No we don't need the internet to become telepathic.
2021-04-27T05:16:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: C-h P slime...
2021-04-27T05:17:09Z moon-child: ChoHag: what's wrong with xanadu? :P
2021-04-27T05:18:05Z no-defun-allowed: It's still virtual paper.
2021-04-27T05:18:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: The other difficulty with completion is that sometimes text-based completion is better
2021-04-27T05:18:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: If I have three symbols with somewhat conventional names, after I type foo-a, foo-<TAB> completing foo-a makes it easier to input foo-b
2021-04-27T05:19:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: even though the completion is actually wrong, it's more useful than showing me either nothing (because I'm in a let and foo-a is a parallel binding) or some random symbol.
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2021-04-27T05:22:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: One thing I'd like is the ability to write code into the buffer with #1# and #1= and then tell emacs to "expand" the reader macros
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2021-04-27T05:23:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: It wouldn't be safe because it'd break identity, but it'd be pretty useful in some situations.
2021-04-27T05:23:30Z moon-child: I'm inclined to say that if you need to duplicate enough code that that would be useful, you're probably doing something wrong anyway
2021-04-27T05:23:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: I do it mostly in the slime repl
2021-04-27T05:24:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: Things like #.(cons 'foo (cdr +))
2021-04-27T05:24:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: Also, there's a bunch of places where that sort of editing shortcut would just be nice
2021-04-27T05:27:11Z Nilby: Heh. My repl does that. It's easy to add to any repl.
2021-04-27T05:28:25Z Nilby: just bind a key that does (write-to-stirng (read))
2021-04-27T05:29:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, also doing + will show the expansion
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2021-04-27T05:30:51Z Nilby: or just press the key, then undo
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2021-04-27T06:04:41Z dieggsy: i wonder if there's any real reason that scriptl should be using C (C++ ? )
2021-04-27T06:04:55Z dieggsy: it's a very cool idea broken though it may be
2021-04-27T06:05:02Z dieggsy: be interesting if it could be ported fully to CL
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2021-04-27T06:14:07Z jlarocco: In the Slime REPL, when I run (ql:quickload :my-package) where my-package has a syntax error, or some other failure, is there a shortcut or function to jump to the source code location causing the problem?
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2021-04-27T06:20:54Z jlarocco: If I compile the file with C-c C-k, I can use next-error and previous-error to jump to the location that caused the problem, but that doesn't seem to work using (ql:quickload) from Slime
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2021-04-27T06:55:13Z no-defun-allowed: Re-reading the Early History of Smalltalk, this statement could be read as in favour of generic functions and/or method combination: "And we soon discovered that "prototypes" were more hospitable than classes, and that multiple inheritance would be well served if there were classes for methods that knew generally what they were supposed to be about (inspired by Pat Winston's 2nd order models)."
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2021-04-27T07:17:31Z pillton: I don't understand how "functions" coupled with state got so far. I am referring to the syntax for application and their declaration/definition.
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2021-04-27T07:20:37Z Lycurgus: fwiw, smalltalk doesn't have multiple inheritance
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2021-04-27T07:21:12Z Lycurgus: pillton that reminds me of when I once asked my mother if they had electricity when she was a child
2021-04-27T07:21:43Z Lycurgus: mutatis mutandis, what did people do before strict FP?
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2021-04-27T07:24:45Z Lycurgus: in fact before haskell, and erlang (outside switches), when strict FP meant ML, it (strict FP) was considered a useless academic toy
2021-04-27T07:25:43Z Lycurgus: strict/pure whatever;strict properly contrasts with lazy at this point
2021-04-27T07:26:15Z Lycurgus: language is not exactly ur friend
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2021-04-27T07:29:32Z Lycurgus: it also makes it sound like langs with full referential transparency were now the norm which is hardly the case
2021-04-27T07:29:58Z Lycurgus: rather there's a pervasive FP fad of sorts
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2021-04-27T07:52:06Z phoe: jlarocco: compile with debug 3, then the backtrace will have a green-colored frame that shows the form beind compiled
2021-04-27T07:52:16Z phoe: from there you can jump to source location of that frame
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2021-04-27T09:47:04Z pjb: moon-child: structural editors feel like straight jacket.  I like the flexibility of emacs, allowing you to work at the character level as well as structurally thru things like paredit.  It's a nice compromise IMO.
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2021-04-27T09:52:52Z beach: pjb: That would be a "straitjacket".
2021-04-27T09:53:30Z beach: But yes, now that we can parse the buffer contents incrementally, using the Common Lisp reader, I don't think there is any need for such restrictions.
2021-04-27T09:53:53Z pjb: Oh! Thanks. :-)
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2021-04-27T10:19:00Z splittist: You speak as if editing at the repl with SUBST and SETF CXXR isn't optimal...
2021-04-27T10:23:19Z flip214: splittist: yeah, ed for the win!!
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2021-04-27T10:33:38Z pjb: if you have automatic editing to do, why not. But otherwise, consider something like sedit.
2021-04-27T10:33:52Z pjb: http://informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/sedit/index.html
2021-04-27T10:34:14Z pjb: A true structural editor for sexps.
2021-04-27T10:34:53Z pjb: It's ed-like but the same could be done vi- or emacs-like with nice key bindings.
2021-04-27T10:35:25Z pjb: paredit approaches it, while leaving the character basis. We could implement a sedit in emacs, purely structural.
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2021-04-27T12:51:08Z nij: Hello! I found that a script "dictionary" I wrote hasn't been working for a while.. but failed to see why's that the case: https://bpa.st/UILA
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2021-04-27T12:55:18Z beach: You don't exactly give the output that would tell us why.  But one hint is that ASDF by default converts warnings to errors that will prevent the compilation from finishing properly.  You may want to change that default.
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2021-04-27T12:57:14Z nij: Err. whatelse output should I provide? This is the debugging message after I run (ql:quickload :dictionary)
2021-04-27T12:58:30Z beach: Try putting this in your .sbclrc: (setf asdf:*compile-file-failure-behaviour* :ignore)
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2021-04-27T13:01:46Z nij: Thanks! I now see the bug, and have fixed it.
2021-04-27T13:02:04Z nij: Should I leave that line in my .sbclrc? Or just to turn that on when it's needed?
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2021-04-27T13:02:51Z beach: I have mine in there permanently.
2021-04-27T13:03:08Z nij: Good-fu! Thanks :-)
2021-04-27T13:03:25Z beach: Sure.
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2021-04-27T13:50:03Z beach: phoe: Are you the one in charge of the streaming for ELS?  If so, what is the deadline for uploading the talk?
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2021-04-27T13:57:09Z Josh_2: Hey
2021-04-27T13:57:33Z Josh_2: Can someone show me an example of them using (declare (dynamic-extent <var>)) ?
2021-04-27T13:59:33Z beach: There are several examples in the Common Lisp HyperSpec.
2021-04-27T13:59:41Z beach: clhs dynamic-extent
2021-04-27T13:59:41Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_dynami.htm
2021-04-27T14:01:05Z Josh_2: yes but the examples are just trivial
2021-04-27T14:01:34Z Bike: what do you want to do that the examples don't cover?
2021-04-27T14:01:36Z Josh_2: Was wondering if someone could show me an example in real code where they have used it to get a performance increase
2021-04-27T14:02:17Z lotuseater: Josh_2: this is something which I still don't get ^^ got to know this after reading the Google Common Lisp style guide
2021-04-27T14:03:52Z pjb: Josh_2: here is an example: https://termbin.com/iqq4
2021-04-27T14:04:00Z Nilby: Josh_2: alexandria has examples
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2021-04-27T14:04:19Z pjb: Josh_2: https://termbin.com/sd72
2021-04-27T14:04:41Z Bike: i mean, honestly, there's not much to it. if you make an object and you know it won't escape you can declare it dynamic-extent to hint to the compiler to stack allocate
2021-04-27T14:04:51Z Bike: that's it. knowing when something escapes can be complicated, tho.
2021-04-27T14:05:01Z pjb: the use of the guard cons cell lets you avoid a special case when you have to insert at the before the first element of the list.  However, this cons cell is a temporary cons cell that won't be needed once the function returns.
2021-04-27T14:05:12Z lotuseater: had the thought it could be useful if you loop many times and create each time new data in a DO clause
2021-04-27T14:05:24Z pjb: Josh_2: therefore it can be declared dynamic-extend and the implementation could allocate it on the stack instead of the heap.
2021-04-27T14:06:26Z pjb: It's dangerous to write dynamic-extend declarations, because in maintenance, the status of the object could change!  It's better to let the compiler determine it itself, without error.
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2021-04-27T14:08:23Z Nilby: I would only use a dynamic-extent declaration where it was demonstrated to make speed critical code faster.
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2021-04-27T14:47:39Z Josh_2: Thanks for the responses
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2021-04-27T15:22:36Z nnni: Is it possible to find out the size of a compiled function?
2021-04-27T15:23:27Z Bike: not portably
2021-04-27T15:23:47Z nnni: Is there a SBCL specific solution?
2021-04-27T15:24:40Z Bike: hm, dunno. it's a bit of an involved question. for a closure the code will be sort of separate from the closure vector, for example
2021-04-27T15:25:42Z phoe: beach: I am in charge of streaming; I don't know if we have an established deadline, heisig will know that as the programme chair
2021-04-27T15:26:04Z phoe: personally I will be happy if you give it to me before the weekend
2021-04-27T15:26:13Z phoe: but I do not know if heisig has any additional constraints on top of that
2021-04-27T15:26:16Z beach: OK, good to know.  Thanks.
2021-04-27T15:27:32Z Bike: i guess you'd do sb-kernel:fun-code-header, and then look at the... there's a "code-size" and a "text-size". couldn't tell you what they are.
2021-04-27T15:27:43Z Bike: and obviously these are unstable internal interfaces. why do you want to do this?
2021-04-27T15:31:31Z nnni: Bike: I am compiling some data into closures. I want to see the differences b/w (data+runtime functions) and closures implementations.
2021-04-27T15:32:27Z Bike: well, again, closures aren't stored as one thing. if you have multiple closures of the same function, in basically any implementation they'll all share the same code
2021-04-27T15:32:28Z nnni: If you have access to OnLisp book, chapter 6.
2021-04-27T15:32:41Z Bike: and code is usually separate from data
2021-04-27T15:34:22Z nnni: I want to see how the size of closures grows with the size of input data.
2021-04-27T15:34:50Z Bike: the size of the closures is a different question from the size of the function
2021-04-27T15:35:26Z Bike: generally speaking closures are represented with a simple vector. there will be an entry for each thing closed over.
2021-04-27T15:35:58Z Nilby: Perhaps a more portable and comprehensive way is to look at (room) differences under controled conditions, e.g. making sure gc is done.
2021-04-27T15:36:22Z Bike: i don't think i'm explaining this well, sorry. What I mean is that the code - the executable code I mean - is stored separately from the closure data. That's what I meant by the size of the closure versus the size of the function.
2021-04-27T15:38:27Z nnni: So it will be hard to inspect just the executable part of the closure?
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2021-04-27T15:39:04Z Bike: well it sounds like you're not actually interested in the executable size, since that's a fixed cost, unlike the actual closed over data, which every closure instance will have its own copy of
2021-04-27T15:39:43Z Bike: i'd say the basic guide here is that you can expect (let ((a x) (b y)) (lambda (n) (if n a b))) and (vector a b) to take up rougly the same amount of space, plus the closure has the fixed space of the code
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2021-04-27T15:44:42Z nnni: Bike: Thank You.
2021-04-27T15:46:37Z phoe: nnni: just the executable part of the closure? hmmm
2021-04-27T15:46:43Z phoe: I guess that #'disassemble is going to tell you that
2021-04-27T15:46:47Z phoe: like, the total assembly size
2021-04-27T15:47:13Z nnni: phoe: dissassemble is not giving me that
2021-04-27T15:47:47Z nnni: It is showing some 14 bytes for a function of considerable size.
2021-04-27T15:48:34Z phoe: nnni: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2408#2408
2021-04-27T15:48:41Z phoe: 30 bytes in this trivial case
2021-04-27T15:48:48Z phoe: and there is indeed 30 bytes of code in there
2021-04-27T15:49:44Z phoe: ...why is there #'disassemble in that code though
2021-04-27T15:50:35Z phoe: huh
2021-04-27T15:50:40Z phoe: this smells like a SBCL bug
2021-04-27T15:53:01Z nnni: Try something complicated like
2021-04-27T15:53:04Z nnni: (disassemble (let ((x 42)) (lambda () (loop :for i :from 0 :upto x :do (princ i)))))
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2021-04-27T16:03:49Z phoe: that's a bug in SBCL
2021-04-27T16:04:04Z phoe: I bet $5
2021-04-27T16:04:26Z Nilby: I think it knows the lambda is trapped
2021-04-27T16:04:27Z phoe took it to #sbcl
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2021-04-27T17:07:21Z phoe: hello, this is a message from the European Lisp Symposium organizational team
2021-04-27T17:07:30Z phoe: During this year's ELS, we will be selling prints and hosting an auction of the original of The Y Combinator Codex, a 42cm x 240cm calligraphy piece.
2021-04-27T17:07:37Z phoe: All proceeds from the auction and print sales made during the two days of ELS (sans printing and shipping costs) will be split evenly and donated to the following organizations, earmarked as money for promotion and development of the respective Lisp languages and their implementations:
2021-04-27T17:07:46Z phoe: Free Software Foundation (elisp), Clojurists Together (clojure), Common Lisp Foundation (cl), Software Freedom Conservancy (Racket), and ACM SIGPLAN (earmarked as scholarships for the ICFP Scheme Workshop).
2021-04-27T17:07:52Z phoe: There's photos: https://www.reddit.com/r/LispMemes/comments/l5f4n9/the_y_combinator_codex_but_its_actually/ and a small-res scan: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/532344856731975690/836296248528732170/y-combinator-codex-micro.jpg
2021-04-27T17:07:57Z phoe: this is the end of the message
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2021-04-27T17:29:34Z cage_: phoe, how can the people partecipate at the auction?
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2021-04-27T17:35:58Z dieggsy: damn, be nice if it had a less distracting background
2021-04-27T17:39:11Z phoe: cage_: there'll be a web app for that, announced during the conference
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2021-04-27T18:10:57Z cage_: phoe, thanks!!
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2021-04-27T19:31:06Z ChoHag: Does CL have a standard description equivalent to scheme's RxRs?
2021-04-27T19:31:38Z Xach: ChoHag: there is an ANSI standard
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2021-04-27T19:33:40Z phoe: ChoHag: yes, see clhs
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2021-04-27T19:33:42Z phoe: clhs car
2021-04-27T19:33:42Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_car_c.htm
2021-04-27T19:34:00Z phoe: if you go to the toplevel, then CLHS is a rendition of ANSI CL standard
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2021-04-27T19:40:12Z pjb: ChoHag: Well, it's not strictly equivalent to scheme RnRS: there's only One CL ANSI Standard to rule them all, One CL ANSI Standard to find them, One CL ANSI Standard to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them.  So if you write a conforming CL program in 1996, it will work the same in 2021, and it will work the same in 2046.  On the other hand, with scheme, you'd be hard pressed to locate r3rs implementations, and in 2046,
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2021-04-27T19:40:12Z pjb: won't find any working r5rs implementation, so your  programs and libraries will be dusk, rotten bits.
2021-04-27T19:40:27Z pjb: ChoHag: http://informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/wang.html
2021-04-27T19:40:45Z ChoHag: Does it have to be in the darkness?
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2021-04-27T19:40:58Z phoe: only if you go real cheap on the lightbulbs
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2021-04-27T19:42:01Z pjb: ChoHag: said otherwise, my advice is, if you don't plan to finish the program this year, and become a billionaire selling it by next year, if instead you plan to work on your free time for the next few years, perhaps the next few decades, you should better use Common Lisp to avoid having to rewrite it every year (like, eg. swifth programs for iOS that require maintenance only to stay on the AppStore because of new versions of iO
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2021-04-27T19:42:01Z pjb: the Swift language!).
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2021-04-27T19:43:05Z ChoHag: Oh other end of the stick. I'm working on an implementation.
2021-04-27T19:43:11Z Xach: ChoHag: of what?
2021-04-27T19:43:43Z ChoHag: I don't want to write things in CL. I'm making something I want to implement CL in.
2021-04-27T19:43:45Z pjb: Great! And this means that you won't have to change the implementation each year, so you can concentrate on making it better.  You may also prefer to collaborate with beach on #sicl ?
2021-04-27T19:44:42Z Xach: I don't think I've ever come across someone unfamiliar with the CL standard who is writing a new language in which to implement CL
2021-04-27T19:44:46Z ChoHag: I'm not trying to get anyone to change implementations. I want to stop all that sort of shit.
2021-04-27T19:45:36Z ChoHag: I want to explore ideas around interoprability.
2021-04-27T19:46:09Z ChoHag: That's why I want a standard to work toward.
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2021-04-27T19:46:26Z dieggsy: ChoHag: could you be more specific
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2021-04-27T19:47:03Z ChoHag: Not really. I'm chewing the fat a bit.
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2021-04-27T19:47:34Z ChoHag: My focus has been mostly on scheme. I've not touched CL for a few years. I want to re-acquaint myself.
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2021-04-27T19:48:27Z ChoHag: It ANSI the latest word in CL standards?
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2021-04-27T19:48:30Z ChoHag: Is
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2021-04-27T19:49:00Z Xach: ChoHag: yes
2021-04-27T19:50:03Z dieggsy: latest and only AFAIK
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2021-04-27T19:52:32Z ChoHag: Thanks.
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2021-04-27T19:54:32Z pjb: ChoHag: as I said, there is only one ANSI CL Standard  for ever.
2021-04-27T19:54:57Z pjb: ChoHag: if you write a CL implementation today, it will still be a CL implementation in 20 or 40 years from now.  Actually, until the singularity!
2021-04-27T19:55:50Z pjb: ChoHag: that said, it is allowed to write implementations of a subset of Common Lisp, or superset (extensions) to CL as long as it's clearly documented.
2021-04-27T19:56:14Z pjb: ChoHag: nothing prevents you to spend the next 40 years improving on your extensions to the CL language in your implementation.
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2021-04-27T19:59:32Z dieggsy: pjb: 'allowed' in what sense? just like, you can still call this CL by the standard's definition ?
2021-04-27T19:59:59Z dieggsy: cause technically people can do whatever they want heh
2021-04-27T20:02:33Z Nilby: In this case allowed meas conforming to standard, not what one can do.
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2021-04-27T20:03:55Z pjb: dieggsy: in the sence that as long as the implementation is a conforming CL implementation, a conforming CL program will produce the same results as on any other conforming CL implementation.  Ie. the extensions cannot modify the semantics of the base CL language.
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2021-04-27T20:05:06Z pjb: dieggsy: an implementation can easily provide new functionalities in different packages. Eg. clisp provides a ffi in the FFI package, a interface to regex(3) in the REGEXP package, access to screen and keyboard in the SCREEN and KEYBOARD packages, access to LINUX specific operations in the LINUX package, etc.
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2021-04-27T20:05:33Z dieggsy: pjb: fair, thanks!
2021-04-27T20:05:46Z pjb: dieggsy: furthermore, functions taking &key arguments, may allow additionnal key arguments for extensions. The standard behavior apply when those additionnal key arguments are not provided.
2021-04-27T20:06:29Z pjb: dieggsy: some extensions in the class hierarchy are possible when mentionned (intermediate classes, or subclasses could be provided). etc.  It's all specified in great detail.
2021-04-27T20:06:55Z dieggsy: pjb: also wow, clisp sounds really neat..... should i switch from SBCL heh
2021-04-27T20:06:56Z pjb: But the important point: to remain a conforming implementation any extension (or subset of the language) must be clearly documented.
2021-04-27T20:07:47Z pjb: dieggsy: well, it depends. sbcl has its own extensions, but both have problems. The best is to use all the implementations to validate one's conforming code, and to use the implementation best adapted to the deployment case.
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2021-04-27T20:09:45Z pjb: When you want to write portable programs you would avoid those implementation specific extensions anyways, using preferably portability libraries or conforming libraries.  Or using #+/#-, you would make use of the extension only when the specific implementation is used.
2021-04-27T20:11:24Z Nilby: dieggsy: Sadly clisp isn't as neat as it sounds anymore. It has some problems, which likely won't be resolved, and you can have all that in sbcl, and bunch other stuff which make it very fast.
2021-04-27T20:11:42Z dieggsy: Nilby: ah, what sorts of problems ?
2021-04-27T20:11:48Z pjb: I still have more problems, bugs and crashes with sbcl than clisp…
2021-04-27T20:12:55Z pjb: dieggsy: for example, sbcl lies to you. It says that call-arguments-limit is 4611686018427387903, but when you try to call (apply f l) with a list L containing 100000 elements, it crashes.
2021-04-27T20:13:13Z dieggsy: lol
2021-04-27T20:13:14Z pjb: Other implementations give smaller call-arguments-limit and don't crash!
2021-04-27T20:13:23Z Nilby: It doesn't handle unicode that well anymore. It's pathnames are troublesome.
2021-04-27T20:13:26Z pjb: clisp has 4096 and works perfectly.
2021-04-27T20:13:40Z dieggsy: when you're applying a function to that many arguments, one might argue it's more an issu of program design?
2021-04-27T20:14:10Z pjb: clisp has the best encoding support, notably unicode: it knows the name of all the unicode characters.  That's not the case with sbcl or ccl they give you useless names such as #\u12345
2021-04-27T20:14:48Z pjb: All implementations have problem with pathnames: https://github.com/informatimago/check-pathname
2021-04-27T20:15:04Z antoszka: pjb: how does clisp keep up with the growing unicode standard?
2021-04-27T20:15:14Z antoszka: (if you *all the unicode characters*?)
2021-04-27T20:15:28Z antoszka: it doesn't seem super actively maintained
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2021-04-27T20:15:38Z pjb: clisp has a report of 72 lines, while sbcl (some old version) had 338 lines of problems!
2021-04-27T20:15:46Z _death: pjb: the problem with clisp is that it needs a new release
2021-04-27T20:15:47Z pjb: antoszka: it uses the iconv library ;-)
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2021-04-27T20:16:04Z antoszka: well, okay then ;)
2021-04-27T20:16:12Z pjb: _death: it's on github, so you can get as up-to-date as you wish.
2021-04-27T20:16:40Z _death: pjb: I've had trouble compiling it the last time I tried.. some .d compilation errors
2021-04-27T20:16:55Z pjb: That's possible.
2021-04-27T20:17:13Z pjb: More maintainers would help.
2021-04-27T20:17:47Z pjb: As soon as I win the lotto…
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2021-04-27T20:31:22Z jcowan: Call-arguments-limit is mostly important when applying a function rather than invoking one.  (apply + list) really be non-portable when the list has more than 50 elements.
2021-04-27T20:31:45Z jcowan: s/really/should not realloy
2021-04-27T20:31:48Z jcowan: really, even
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2021-04-27T20:35:12Z _death: since you can query its value, you can use it to portably apply with more than 50 elements on implementations that support it..
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2021-04-27T20:38:21Z jcowan: Case by case, yes.  + is associative, but - needs a different approach
2021-04-27T20:39:34Z _death: + is not always associative..
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2021-04-27T20:41:16Z jcowan: True.
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2021-04-27T20:45:24Z dieggsy: _death: are you referring to floating point cause TIL
2021-04-27T20:45:29Z _death: yes
2021-04-27T20:49:14Z jcowan: So how would you write a function to apply an arbitrary number of list elements to an arbitrary (opaque) function?
2021-04-27T20:51:21Z _death: you wouldn't?
2021-04-27T20:53:41Z phoe: jcowan: that's the issue
2021-04-27T20:53:54Z phoe: APPLY is not implementable in terms of portable CL without APPLY
2021-04-27T20:54:25Z phoe: well, I mean, you could dispatch based on the total number of arguments
2021-04-27T20:54:50Z phoe: and then do a giant gase of (funcall foo), (funcall foo arg1), (funcall foo arg1 arg2), ..., (funcall foo arg1 arg2 ... argn)
2021-04-27T20:55:03Z phoe: this would be ugly as holy hell but technically it could work
2021-04-27T20:55:10Z Bike: (defun apply (f &rest args) (multiple-value-call (values-list (butlast args)) (values-list (first (last args))))
2021-04-27T20:55:16Z Bike: just to be pedantic for a moment
2021-04-27T20:55:19Z phoe: wait
2021-04-27T20:55:24Z Bike: oh, i forgot to throw f in the call. whatevs
2021-04-27T20:55:24Z phoe: clhs multiple-value-call
2021-04-27T20:55:24Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_multip.htm
2021-04-27T20:55:41Z phoe: okay, TIL
2021-04-27T20:55:52Z Bike: sbcl implements apply in terms of multiple-value-call so that it only needs to optimize one kind of vararg thing
2021-04-27T20:55:56Z phoe: Bike: thanks for that, I haven't thought of that
2021-04-27T20:56:02Z phoe: wow! nice
2021-04-27T20:56:15Z Nilby: nice one Bike :)
2021-04-27T20:56:21Z jcowan: My point is that (contra what _death appeared to be claiming), there is no waay to write a portable APPLY* that uses APPLY to accept arbitrarily long lists.
2021-04-27T20:56:46Z Bike: i think _death just meant that you can do (if (> call-arguments-limit (length args)) (apply f args) (error "implementation sucks too hard, sorry!"))
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2021-04-27T20:58:30Z jcowan: Ah, I see.
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2021-04-27T20:59:48Z _death: now we need to check each implementation's multiple-values-limit ;)
2021-04-27T20:59:51Z pjb: jcowan: https://ideone.com/qpO1I7
2021-04-27T20:59:57Z pjb: jcowan: check group-by!
2021-04-27T21:01:20Z jcowan: that's a first step, but it doesn't really get you there, because you don't know what to do after grouping them.
2021-04-27T21:01:31Z _death: pjb: do you really need that min?
2021-04-27T21:01:50Z Nilby: It's like core Lisp is a system of equations where you can solve in terms of the others.
2021-04-27T21:02:57Z moon-child: 'metacircular' thing is thataway
2021-04-27T21:03:43Z moon-child: don't remember link sadly.  The original site is dead now, though it's on the internet archive
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2021-04-27T21:04:32Z pjb: _death: yes, sbcl is really idiotic.
2021-04-27T21:05:01Z _death: pjb: (nthcdr 3 '(x)) => NIL
2021-04-27T21:05:03Z pjb: call-arguments-limit is gigantic, and nthcdr doesn't terminate before having counted down the whole count!
2021-04-27T21:05:20Z pjb: _death:  (nthcdr call-arguments-limit '(x))  ; answer when it's done!
2021-04-27T21:06:00Z pjb: Anyways, the point is that apply is called with lists that have less elements than call-arguments-limit so it should not crash.
2021-04-27T21:06:09Z _death: hmm.. this reminds me the old doctor joke..
2021-04-27T21:06:23Z pjb: Exactly, hence the min.
2021-04-27T21:06:43Z _death: pjb: well, why not define your own nthcdr?
2021-04-27T21:06:58Z pjb: Because there's one in CL!
2021-04-27T21:07:09Z _death: or patch sbcl ;)
2021-04-27T21:07:36Z pjb: Perhaps one day, eventually.
2021-04-27T21:07:53Z _death: pjb: what I mean is, you are concerned about passing call-arguments-limit to nthcdr, so why fix that only at this location instead of defining pjb-nthcdr that you can always use
2021-04-27T21:08:22Z pjb: Because the beyond nthcdr, the problem is sbcl lying about call-arguments-limit anyways.
2021-04-27T21:08:50Z _death: so back to being the doctor.. why would you do that?
2021-04-27T21:09:02Z _death: (pass c-a-l)
2021-04-27T21:09:24Z pjb: to splice the argument list by chunks that are acceptable by apply.
2021-04-27T21:09:37Z pjb: read the code.
2021-04-27T21:10:53Z _death: so it seems you want an sbcl-conservative-call-arguments-limit
2021-04-27T21:11:31Z _death: I think it probably depends on the control stack size
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2021-04-27T21:11:46Z _death: so can't be a dumb constant
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2021-04-27T21:12:57Z pjb: It could indeed be computed from the control-stack-size parameter, but in any case, it better be conservative as you say, because the stack may be almost full already.
2021-04-27T21:12:58Z Nilby: I would bet it's accurate, but I'm not curious enouch to test it.
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2021-04-27T21:15:49Z Nilby: especially not on systems with an OOM killer
2021-04-27T21:15:51Z _death: anyway, defining such a conservative constant would avoid the special casing and related code
2021-04-27T21:16:07Z mfiano: Not sure how much this changed in the 3 years since I posted it: https://gist.github.com/mfiano/1a31ef23cdde03e17843e02ffbffa46f
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2021-04-27T21:17:30Z _death: but that nthcdr doesn't check for nil is indeed strange
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2021-04-27T21:20:13Z Nilby: I actually appreciate sbcl's optimism. like for (glob "/**"), but it usually fails because fixed heap :(
2021-04-27T21:21:00Z _death: if checking for nil on each iteration is too slow, it could split it so that it checks every M iterations
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2021-04-27T22:02:25Z gendl__: Hi, in sbcl, how can I set a global parameter so that its value will be inherited by any newly spawned threads?
2021-04-27T22:02:37Z gendl__: for example `*read-default-float-format*`
2021-04-27T22:03:01Z phoe: gendl__: sb-ext:symbol-global-value
2021-04-27T22:03:02Z gendl__: if I set it in .sbclrc then it stays set in zaserve webserver threads;
2021-04-27T22:03:25Z phoe: this value will be visible if other threads do not rebind a variable
2021-04-27T22:03:27Z gendl__: if i just setq it in some application file, then start the webserver, the server threads don't see the value.
2021-04-27T22:03:38Z phoe: oh, wait
2021-04-27T22:03:41Z phoe: that's a standard CL symbol
2021-04-27T22:03:51Z phoe: hm, troublesome
2021-04-27T22:04:06Z gendl__: it's a standard CL symbol -- but I'm allowed to set it to double-float in my application, aren't I?
2021-04-27T22:04:12Z phoe: you are
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2021-04-27T22:04:21Z phoe: but the question is how this behaves in a multithreading context
2021-04-27T22:04:34Z gendl__: with emacs/slime there does not seem to be a problem
2021-04-27T22:04:44Z gendl__: i only started noticing the problem when running bare-bones in a shell
2021-04-27T22:05:02Z _death: gendl: that would be a bad idea... a lot of code assumes 1.0 is a single-float, and contains declarations to this end
2021-04-27T22:05:53Z _death: gendl: so binding *read-default-float-format* is practical only in limited contexts
2021-04-27T22:06:12Z gendl__: _death:  so I should just dynamically bind it with let and never setq or setf it?
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2021-04-27T22:07:29Z _death: gendl: what I mean is that it's useful if you, say, READ something yourself.. if you load arbitrary code, it's likely not a good idea to have it bound to anything but single-float
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2021-04-27T22:16:35Z gendl__: ok thanks.
2021-04-27T22:18:10Z _death: just my experience.. and imagine that some of that code also turns safety off.. evil stuff
2021-04-27T22:19:12Z jcowan: As a particular case, if you are reading numeric data generated by something other than CL or Fortran, it is advisable to dynamically bind it to double-float.
2021-04-27T22:20:02Z Odin-: Floating point arithmetic is a mess.
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2021-04-27T22:28:01Z jcowan: It depends on how you look at it: inexact values or inexact operations.
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2021-04-27T22:30:42Z gendl__: Sounds like I have to do A fairly major reengineering an Gendl
2021-04-27T22:31:11Z jcowan: The usual approach is to say that float values are inexact representations of mathematical numbers, but an alternative view is that float values represent exact numbers, but floating point operations are fast but inexact approximations to mathematical truth.
2021-04-27T22:33:10Z gendl__: on*...  as it is now, it pretty much depends on *read-default-float-format* being bound to  ‘double-float. Annoying things will start breaking everywhere if that’s not the case.
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2021-04-27T22:33:47Z gendl__: And indeed, quickloading Gendl will clobber that parameter globally.
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2021-04-27T22:34:16Z moon-child: I think inexact representation is usually the better approach
2021-04-27T22:34:25Z moon-child: if you consider algorithms that actually track precision
2021-04-27T22:34:27Z gendl__: In order to be a good citizen, it sounds like Gendl has to stop doing that and figure out where to strategically do local dynamic binding.
2021-04-27T22:34:36Z phoe: yes
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2021-04-27T22:35:08Z _death: I guess you could add some asdf-specific code to bind it for certain components.. not tried that though
2021-04-27T22:36:10Z gendl__: It’s going to take a lot of regression testing, So it will have to happen after our May 1 release. Not enough time to risk it before that.
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2021-04-27T22:36:37Z dieggsy: is CFFI the most portable to write FFI code ?
2021-04-27T22:36:42Z dieggsy: most portable way*
2021-04-27T22:37:21Z phoe: dieggsy: yes
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2021-04-27T22:44:20Z jcowan: dieggsy: Note that CFFI has multiple implementations, conceptually one for each CL implementation.
2021-04-27T22:44:55Z dieggsy: jcowan: wait, how would that affect how i develop with it
2021-04-27T22:45:23Z jcowan: It doesn't directly, except that if there is no CFFI implementation for the CL you are using, you are out of luck.
2021-04-27T22:45:55Z phoe: CFFI has support for all major impls though, doesn't it?
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2021-04-27T22:46:13Z Odin-: jcowan: How is that different in any meaningful way from CL itself?
2021-04-27T22:46:19Z jcowan: It isn't.
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2021-04-27T22:47:04Z jcowan: But it is portable in a different sense from most portable packages.
2021-04-27T22:48:11Z jcowan: In particular, some features don't work on some implementations, see https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/cffi-manual.html#Implementation-Support
2021-04-27T22:48:37Z dieggsy: jcowan: oh,  i see. that's good to know, thank you
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2021-04-27T22:50:40Z moon-child: damn, allegro and lispworks are both stuck on utf16
2021-04-27T22:51:03Z moon-child: s/utf16/16-bit code points/
2021-04-27T22:52:26Z Odin-: A lot of things are.
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2021-04-27T22:52:40Z Odin-: Java, and thus ABCL, to mention one.
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2021-04-27T22:55:55Z jcowan: IIRC, CMUCL is stuck on Latin-1
2021-04-27T22:55:59Z jcowan: (or 8-bit characters)
2021-04-27T22:56:29Z moon-child: is cmucl used at all anymore, though?  My impression was sbcl superseded it
2021-04-27T22:57:03Z jcowan: No clue on that
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2021-04-27T23:03:30Z dieggsy: hmm, i'm looking for something like CHICKEN's foreign-value? e.g. (foreign-value SOME_C_VAR int)
2021-04-27T23:03:33Z dieggsy: basically an inline defcvar
2021-04-27T23:03:43Z dieggsy: ... i think
2021-04-27T23:04:52Z kagevf: I like White_Flame's fast-body macro idea (yeah just read it now)
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2021-04-27T23:05:41Z jcowan: kagevf: url?
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2021-04-27T23:10:07Z _death: dieggsy: if you M-. on cffi:defcvar, you may arrive at the conclusion that (cffi:mem-ref (cffi:foreign-symbol-pointer "SOME_C_VAR") :int) may work ;)
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2021-04-27T23:14:00Z dieggsy: _death: ah, it doesn't only because what i'm after is actually a macro in a header file, lol. but cheers
2021-04-27T23:15:02Z dieggsy: i guess CFFI primarily works on shared libraries and not header files... ?
2021-04-27T23:15:15Z phoe: yes
2021-04-27T23:15:16Z _death: there is cffi-grovel
2021-04-27T23:15:40Z phoe: macros disappear after compilation and cffi works on compiled objects; but see what _death said
2021-04-27T23:15:50Z phoe: the groveller is capable of parsing header files
2021-04-27T23:16:56Z dieggsy: hmm, looking into it now, thanks
2021-04-27T23:17:04Z drmeister: Does ASDF or quicklisp provide a function to get a list of all systems loaded?
2021-04-27T23:17:28Z phoe: (asdf:already-loaded-systems)
2021-04-27T23:18:21Z drmeister: Thank you!
2021-04-27T23:18:47Z drmeister: I was trying riffs on all-loaded, all-systems ...
2021-04-27T23:18:56Z phoe: (apropos "loaded") did the trick
2021-04-27T23:19:29Z jcowan: Anyone know why it's called "the groveler"?  "Grovel" in the sense "inspect closely" seems to be computer jargon with no obvious connection to its mundane meanings "be prone", "crawl", etc.
2021-04-27T23:19:34Z phoe: it's kinda like russian roulette
2021-04-27T23:19:38Z jcowan: "abase oneself"
2021-04-27T23:20:24Z drmeister: Cando uses 81 asdf systems.  Yeesh.
2021-04-27T23:21:01Z dieggsy: _death or phoe not sure i understand how to use cffi-grovel from the docs
2021-04-27T23:21:15Z _death: jcowan: in the manual it says "grovels through system headers".. so maybe in the sense of "crawl"
2021-04-27T23:21:29Z no-defun-allowed: grovel, verb, 3. to take pleasure in mean or base things.
2021-04-27T23:21:40Z jcowan chuckles
2021-04-27T23:22:12Z _death: dieggsy: you could look at a project that uses it.. here's a simple one https://github.com/death/monotonic-clock
2021-04-27T23:22:22Z phoe: drmeister: a humble number for a pretty complete programming environment
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2021-04-27T23:23:43Z dieggsy: _death: thanks. still getting used to the whole packaging framework. i guess it has to be used with an asdf declaration, not in code like CFFI itself
2021-04-27T23:23:59Z _death: dieggsy: yes
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2021-04-27T23:39:37Z kagevf: jcowan: I don't think White_Flame left one? but the basic idea was to create a macro that you could wrap around a defun and the macro would set compiler optimizations, etc
2021-04-27T23:39:50Z jcowan: Ah
2021-04-27T23:39:59Z kagevf: jcowan: White_Flame wrote this: (defmacro fast-body (&body body) ...)
2021-04-27T23:40:09Z kagevf: https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/lisp?from=1619458719
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2021-04-27T23:42:44Z kagevf: if you update a macro you have to re-compile every defun that uses it ... something I didn't know and caused me a lot of confusion ... so FYI anybody who didn't know that hehe
2021-04-27T23:43:39Z pjb: kagevf: that's why project often have macros in a separate file, so that we may write file dependencies in asdf and have things recompiled automatically.
2021-04-27T23:43:42Z White_Flame 's ears burn
2021-04-27T23:44:56Z pjb: phoe: it's the opposite: each major implementation has a custom FFI.  Therefore there can be a CFFI backend for them.
2021-04-27T23:44:59Z no-defun-allowed: Whatever happened to White_Flame? He got a macro that made his ears burn...
2021-04-27T23:45:23Z White_Flame: (defmacro fast-body (&body body) `(locally (declare (optimize (speed 3) (safety 0) (space 0) (compilation-speed 0))) ,@body))
2021-04-27T23:45:53Z pjb: moon-child: cmucl may still be used, since it has some differentiating characteristics. For example, it can be compiled with 8-bit characters instead of unicode. That may be useful.
2021-04-27T23:46:07Z pjb: moon-child: but otherwise, yes, sbcl has mostly superceded it.
2021-04-27T23:46:23Z pjb: jcowan: cmucl is not stick on latin-1, you can also compile with with unicode support.
2021-04-27T23:46:44Z jcowan: Ah, okay
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2021-04-27T23:47:16Z no-defun-allowed: Suppose someone might find sanely bootstrapping too boring.
2021-04-27T23:47:42Z kagevf: pjb - like when you do an asdf:load?
2021-04-27T23:47:47Z White_Flame: plus a (slow-body ...) that muffles BCL optimization warnings :-3
2021-04-27T23:48:02Z kagevf steals White_Flame's macro
2021-04-27T23:49:01Z White_Flame: *SBCL
2021-04-27T23:49:24Z White_Flame: obviously mind the (safety 0) implications
2021-04-27T23:49:29Z kagevf: pjb: asdf:load-system, actually
2021-04-27T23:51:54Z drmeister: Is there a way to get a list of all source files in an asdf system from within Common Lisp?
2021-04-27T23:52:56Z drmeister: I'm writing a report and I'm taking an inventory of the amount of code that we compile into our runtime.
2021-04-27T23:53:42Z drmeister: So far: 580,000 lines of C++; 236,000 lines of Common Lisp code; 81 ASDF systems.
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2021-04-27T23:54:04Z phoe: drmeister: (asdf:module-components (asdf:find-system :phoe-toolbox))
2021-04-27T23:54:10Z drmeister: The last one doesn't mean anything to non-CL people - so I'm trying to get an estimate of the number of lines of CL code that come from ASDF systems.
2021-04-27T23:55:53Z phoe: then use #'asdf:component-pathname to extract actual pathnames
2021-04-27T23:56:21Z phoe: don't forget to include the cloc statistics for clasp itself :D
2021-04-27T23:56:33Z White_Flame: speaking of dynamic-extent from upstream in the logs, is there a legal way to push to a lexical list var while having all the cells be dynamic-extent?
2021-04-27T23:57:10Z pjb: kagevf: yes.
2021-04-27T23:58:04Z pjb: White_Flame: of course, you can do whatever you want with the cells.  That's the danger of dynamic-extend declarations.
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2021-04-27T23:58:42Z pjb: White_Flame: note that the declaration is on the variable holding the value, not the value, while it applies obviously to the allocated values…
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2021-04-28T00:00:02Z pjb: (let ((list '()) (cell '())) (declare (dynamic-extend cell)) (loop repeat 10 do (setf cell (cons 'a list)) (setf list cell)) (prin1 list) (values)) #| (a a a a a a a a a a) |#
2021-04-28T00:00:57Z pjb: assuming of course, that prin1 doesn't store the list somewhere for later (this would be dragons out of the nose).
2021-04-28T00:01:17Z kagevf: pjb: wouldn't asdf:load-system recompile any defuns anyway even if they're in the same file as the defmacros they are using? and even if the macros are in a different system, wouldn't that still be the case? if what I just said is wrong, I'd be very interested in knowing, since that might explain some things I've observed and don't fully understand ...
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2021-04-28T00:12:25Z White_Flame: pjb: that CONS call in there heap allocates
2021-04-28T00:12:26Z White_Flame: (at least in SBCL, with optimizations on)
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2021-04-28T00:21:21Z White_Flame: but, (let ((cell (cons ...))) (declare (dynamic-extent cell)) (push cell list)) might do it, it just leaves the scope of the LET which might make it immediately invalid depending on the compiler
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2021-04-28T00:21:57Z White_Flame: which is the weirdness I hit in terms of dynamically consing up stuff on the stack (which may or may not be possible based on the stack discipline of the compiler as well)
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2021-04-28T01:27:32Z pjb: kagevf: in the same file yes, but not in other files, if they don't depend on the file where the macros are defined.
2021-04-28T01:30:06Z pjb: kagevf: if you modify a system and reload it, this doesn't make asdf reload the systems that depend on it!  You need to load a leaf system to have all the dependencies recompiled and reloaded.  So if you have N systems in a project, you could define an artifical N+1 bottom system that would depend on all the N system, and that you could reload when you modify any of the N system, to have it and all its dependents be reloaded.
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2021-04-28T01:33:23Z pjb: White_Flame: well, dynamic-extend doesn't imply stack.  An implemented could use a separate heap, managed similarly to the old Pascal heap, which is basically a parallel, data stack, instead of a garbage collected heap.
2021-04-28T01:34:21Z White_Flame: still, my example exits the lexical scope the var is defined in, while it still keeps it alive, be it the process stack or not
2021-04-28T01:34:26Z pjb: White_Flame: upon entry in a function the function records the size of this dynamic-extend heap; dynamic-extend objects are allocated there (simply incrementing the size of the heap), and when the function returns, it resets the size of the heap to the saved value.
2021-04-28T01:34:36Z pjb: White_Flame: of course, that doesn't work for closures.
2021-04-28T01:34:48Z White_Flame: and yours might allocate outside the dynamic-extent
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2021-04-28T01:35:10Z pjb: Indeed, if you break the dynamic-extend, dragons out of the nose.
2021-04-28T01:35:31Z pjb: It's not a weidness, it's a dire non-conformity.
2021-04-28T01:35:41Z pjb: +r
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2021-04-28T01:36:27Z saturn2: my impression was that in sbcl, dynamic-extent doesn't affect setf assignments at all
2021-04-28T01:36:42Z pjb: White_Flame: and remember all declarations but special declarations can be ignored by the implementation.
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2021-04-28T01:37:22Z White_Flame: sure, but the actual expressibility is in question
2021-04-28T01:37:55Z saturn2: you have to do some sort of continuation-passing kind of thing if you want to build a dynamic-extent list a little at a time
2021-04-28T01:39:15Z White_Flame: but with CPS, dynamic-extend prevents tail-calling :)
2021-04-28T01:39:18Z White_Flame: *extent
2021-04-28T01:39:39Z pjb: saturn2: not needed.  Any new object that is stored in the declared variable is dynamic-extend, you say to the compiler. What you do with this object later is not the problem of the compiler anymore.  It's your problem.  My code is conforming and produce in list, a variable not declared, a list of cons cells that are dynamic-extent.
2021-04-28T01:39:59Z White_Flame: (now, it doesn't have to, but at least SBCL doesn't include the stack magic to dynamic-extent + tco)
2021-04-28T01:40:48Z White_Flame: pjb: the stack says that the declaration declares that the values become inaccessible outside the form
2021-04-28T01:40:51Z pjb: White_Flame: for an object to be dynamic-extend doesn't imply anything!!! It's up to the implementation to allocate it wherever it wants, and to free it sooner than later!
2021-04-28T01:40:52Z White_Flame: *the spec says
2021-04-28T01:41:22Z saturn2: White_Flame: yeah, it's not ideal either way
2021-04-28T01:41:23Z pjb: Which is indeed all that conforming programs need to know: the fuck don't access the fucking objects outside of the form!
2021-04-28T01:41:47Z White_Flame: inaccesible is not "don't", it's "can't"
2021-04-28T01:41:51Z pjb: Not only don't access, but don't keep a reference.
2021-04-28T01:42:11Z pjb: White_Flame: yes, because the implementation can ignore dynamic extent so it is possible that we may!
2021-04-28T01:42:13Z pjb: But we must not!
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2021-04-28T01:44:49Z White_Flame: when I said "expressibility", that is creating the assertions for this situation.  The declarations assert things which may or may not be checked or used by the implementation
2021-04-28T01:45:07Z White_Flame: it's hard for me to see how to even express this using the declarations
2021-04-28T01:45:34Z White_Flame: however, dynamic-extent does say "for each value ... that vari takes on", which is quite broader
2021-04-28T01:46:17Z White_Flame: especially since data that has a larger extent than the current form might be placed in there, too, without practical issue
2021-04-28T01:46:42Z White_Flame: but I guess inaccessibility covers that
2021-04-28T01:47:10Z White_Flame: so really, this does get into "sufficiently advanced compiler" territory
2021-04-28T01:47:26Z White_Flame: in terms of fully taking advantage of it
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2021-04-28T03:06:49Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-04-28T03:09:10Z kagevf: good morning, beach
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2021-04-28T03:09:43Z kagevf: pjb: what you described is pretty much how I expected asdf:loadsystem to work
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2021-04-28T03:40:31Z pjb: kagevf: yes. Just remmember to write the right dependencies in the asd file.
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2021-04-28T03:51:07Z edgar-rft: sure, there should be no dependencies left :-)
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2021-04-28T05:15:15Z kagevf: pjb: for sure
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2021-04-28T05:21:18Z dieggsy: is there a standard way to "dispatch" on platform? like (os-dispatch (linux do-this) (macos do-that))
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2021-04-28T05:23:50Z moon-child: #+linux do-this #+macos do-that #+(not (or macos linux)) something-else
2021-04-28T05:24:10Z moon-child: (except I think 'macos' is called something else; check *features*)
2021-04-28T05:24:31Z moon-child: err, can replace last with #-(or macos linux) something-else
2021-04-28T05:24:44Z White_Flame: needs #+case((linux ...) (macos ...) (otherwise ...))
2021-04-28T05:25:00Z White_Flame: that's always bothered me
2021-04-28T05:25:21Z moon-child: yeah, me too
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2021-04-28T05:25:30Z moon-child: I mean, you can face it without too much trouble, but still
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2021-04-28T05:26:08Z moon-child: *fake
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2021-04-28T05:28:20Z lukego: I'm feeling the urge to make a github fork of every dependency so that I can easily read/write them somewhere other than my own home directory. this way I could fix things and send changes upstream instead of just quietly working-around locally. does anyone do this? any workflow tips?
2021-04-28T05:29:22Z dieggsy: moon-child: ah, thanks
2021-04-28T05:30:43Z beach: lukego: Isn't that the standard way of preparing pull requests?
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2021-04-28T05:31:59Z lukego: beach: yes, once you have a fork already established, but I don't have that and in the moment it's always too much hassle to create one. Ideally I'd preemptively fork everything and also keep my forks up to date e.g. with latest quicklisp versions.
2021-04-28T05:32:21Z beach: I see.
2021-04-28T05:33:37Z lukego: maintaining one repo containing patch files might be easier but can't send pull requests from that
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2021-04-28T05:34:51Z Nilby: lukego: I just fork, clone, and link into ~/quicklisp/local-projects. Then I can swtich back and forth between the local hacked one and the quicklisp one, by adding and removing the link. It's convenient to have a command to it for you.
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2021-04-28T05:35:49Z lukego: Nilby: hard to install your application on another computer if it depends on the contents of ~/quicklisp/local-projects though?
2021-04-28T05:36:59Z kagevf:  I tried to do touch ./new-directory/new-sub-directory/new-directory but bash complained because the parent directories didn't exist, so I just wrapped ensure-directories-exist in a very tiny app with sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die since it did what I wanted ...
2021-04-28T05:37:33Z Nilby: You can just copy your local repo directory and have a command to populate the links.
2021-04-28T05:39:10Z dieggsy: Woah - cl-tui seems really nice
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2021-04-28T05:39:39Z Nilby: Or just have a list of your patched dependencies and re-create the fork directory from github, then have it populate local-projects.
2021-04-28T05:39:46Z splittist: lukego: would a separate lukego-forks github account do what you want?
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2021-04-28T05:40:21Z lukego: splittist: I think so and what I'd need is a script that syncs it from quicklisp so that it doesn't go stale
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2021-04-28T05:41:56Z splittist: how many of your ql dependencies don't come from gh anyway?
2021-04-28T05:42:19Z lukego: few to none
2021-04-28T05:43:37Z lukego: Nilby: sounds messy for me, going to bite me if I want to e.g. hook up a CI that tests the same code as I'm developing, etc.
2021-04-28T05:44:16Z Nilby: Yes. I agree. I guess another alternative is to have your own quicklisp dist.
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2021-04-28T05:45:11Z lukego: hm, thanks, have to think about that option
2021-04-28T05:45:43Z Nilby: It seems only the most industrious people like Shinmera have to go that far.
2021-04-28T05:46:20Z Nilby: But I guess some Lisp companies do that too.
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2021-04-28T05:49:14Z Nilby: Also there's ultralisp and CLPM but I haven't tried them.
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2021-04-28T05:53:49Z White_Flame: I always end up M-.'ing into QL dependencies to tweak stuff and then stare at it wondering what to do with that :-P
2021-04-28T05:54:18Z White_Flame: *with those changes
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2021-04-28T06:00:28Z Nilby: I find it helpful to have a command to _potentially_ git clone a quicklisp system.
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2021-04-28T06:10:31Z splittist: a quickpr command would be nice
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2021-04-28T06:20:38Z saturn2: kagevf: that's a good solution but there's also mkdir -p
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2021-04-28T06:23:29Z lukego: splittist: Yeah PRs are a whole other dimension. In the olden days of patch files you could manage your sources any way you wanted but nowadays you really need to maintain a whole github repo to participate in code sharing
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2021-04-28T06:26:23Z lukego: borodust also does a quicklisp distro for the gaming stuff and that seems to work well
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2021-04-28T06:31:30Z easye: Mornin' all.
2021-04-28T06:31:56Z beach: Hello easye.
2021-04-28T06:32:06Z easye: What would be the mimimal-non-CL dependencies way of styling org files under Hunchentoot?
2021-04-28T06:32:16Z easye nods to beach.
2021-04-28T06:32:54Z easye: I suppose I could just script Emacs org-export elisp executions...
2021-04-28T06:37:57Z easye wonders about executing elisp in semi-portable ANSI CL for the second time this week.
2021-04-28T06:38:23Z splittist notes the gh cli has `gh pr create`
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2021-04-28T06:57:41Z kagevf: saturn2: I know about mkdir -p, but I have a list of file names from which I want to generate the directories ... if I use mkdir -p, it will turn the entire file path into a directory ... if I try to turn that into a file bash displays an error
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2021-04-28T06:58:44Z kagevf: if I do mkdir -p directory/filename.txt even filename.txt becomes a directory, and I can't do echo "abc123" > directory/filename.txt
2021-04-28T07:00:02Z kagevf: maybe I could have done something with awk, but just wrapping ensure-directories-exist into a mini-app was faster
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2021-04-28T08:00:47Z loke[m]: kagevf: You might want to do `mkdir -p \`dirname "$filenamewithpath\``.
2021-04-28T08:00:51Z loke[m]:  * kagevf: You might want to do `mkdir -p $(dirname "$filenamewithpath)`.
2021-04-28T08:01:03Z loke[m]:  * kagevf: You might want to do `mkdir -p $(dirname "$name_with_path)`.
2021-04-28T08:01:11Z loke[m]:  * kagevf: You might want to do `mkdir -p $(dirname "$name_with_path")`.
2021-04-28T08:01:32Z saturn2: unix is so cool
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2021-04-28T08:01:59Z loke[m]:  * kagevf: You might want to do mkdir -p $(dirname "$name_with_path")
2021-04-28T08:02:03Z loke[m]:  * kagevf: You might want to do: mkdir -p $(dirname "$name_with_path")
2021-04-28T08:02:22Z loke[m]: Sorry, I didn't notice that I'm on an IRC-backed channel. This must have looked horrible in an IRC client.
2021-04-28T08:02:28Z loke[m]: I'll pay more attention next time.
2021-04-28T08:05:18Z Nilby doesn't like unix, which makes crazytown more crazy (let ((file "~/tmp/gralt/baz/moo.txt")) (!= "mkdir" "-p" (nos:dirname file)) (! "echo foo > " file))
2021-04-28T08:05:46Z nij: Did anyone (intend to) annotate CLHS and make it more friendly, say, with more examples?
2021-04-28T08:06:19Z contrapunctus: nij: I think phoe was working on something like that
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2021-04-28T08:08:00Z nij: \o/ any link?
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2021-04-28T08:08:53Z beach: nij: The Common Lisp HyperSpec can not be annotated as is.  It has a very restrictive copyright.
2021-04-28T08:11:06Z nij: Ah.. but can we annotate separately, and point it to specific pages of CLHS?
2021-04-28T08:11:19Z nij: (When will its copyright expire? I won't die before then.)
2021-04-28T08:11:22Z beach: I may not be remembering this right, but I think the ANSI standards document can not be legally copied, but the dpANS can.  And I think the Common Lisp HyperSpec was created from the dpANS.  However, the HTML markup is also protected by copyright.   I may be wrong, and ANSI may have given permission to LispWorks to create the Common Lisp HyperSpec from the standards document.
2021-04-28T08:11:49Z beach: I think it is 75 years after the death of the creator, or something like that.
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2021-04-28T08:12:02Z beach: It tends to follow the age of Mickey Mouse.
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2021-04-28T08:12:58Z beach: nij: I think the right solution is to create a new document from dpANS, and I am pretty sure that is what phoe did.
2021-04-28T08:13:02Z nij: :-( I'll probably be dead then. Anyway.
2021-04-28T08:13:26Z nij: phoe: is it released?!
2021-04-28T08:13:33Z beach: What we do need is a version of the dpANS in the form of one single LaTeX document, rather than as one TeX document per chapter.
2021-04-28T08:13:49Z TMA: it depends on the jurisdiction of the birth/citizenship/residence/death of the creator at the time of the work being first published, of the publisher if posthumously and it is generally at least 70 years after the event, even 100 in some cases
2021-04-28T08:14:02Z ChoHag: beach: cat(1).
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2021-04-28T08:14:58Z beach: TMA: Thanks.
2021-04-28T08:15:08Z beach: ChoHag: Nope, won't work.
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2021-04-28T08:18:30Z Nilby: If I didn't dislike both HTML and TeX so much I would try to do it. I've been fixing a a texinfo copy for years and it's still messed up.
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2021-04-28T08:23:48Z phoe: nij: is what released?
2021-04-28T08:23:56Z beach: CLUS.
2021-04-28T08:24:08Z phoe: not officially, it's in a very unfinished state
2021-04-28T08:24:40Z theothornhill: How unfinished, and is there any way we can help?
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2021-04-28T08:29:29Z nij: yeah maybe people can help
2021-04-28T08:30:18Z theothornhill: I'll volunteer to help out, if I could be pointed somewhere to look
2021-04-28T08:30:38Z beach: Again, I think the best thing to do would be to create a single LaTeX document (with multiple files obviously) from the per-chapter TeX files of the dpANS.
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2021-04-28T08:31:21Z beach: Then we could use it for the Common Lisp UltraSpec, but also as a basis for a Common Lisp reference manual, and for the WSCL specification.
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2021-04-28T08:35:02Z scymtym: beach: is there more information on this idea of reformatting the dpANS sources anywhere? like previous attempts, necessary steps, expected outcome, etc?
2021-04-28T08:35:24Z Nilby: Unless I've missed something it doesn't seem like LaTeX is an adequate format.
2021-04-28T08:35:49Z beach: scymtym: Not really.  I tried doing it semi-manually, but it was a disaster.
2021-04-28T08:36:29Z beach: Nilby: If it is correctly structured, it could be parsed.  But that's not the case for the dpANS.
2021-04-28T08:37:14Z beach: Nilby: The dpANS is pure TeX with lots of custom macros, many of which are for aesthetic purposes only.
2021-04-28T08:37:23Z Nilby: Yes. That's one reason I wish it were in a more abstract format.
2021-04-28T08:37:43Z beach: Nilby: I totally agree, but that's just making the task even more complicated up front.
2021-04-28T08:37:50Z White_Flame: need Common Lisp Spexpr
2021-04-28T08:38:34Z White_Flame: one day I'll do it
2021-04-28T08:38:47Z White_Flame: just blast through it monk-copy style
2021-04-28T08:38:50Z scymtym: beach: i see. i meant information that would be useful for making another attempt. that would also include how to get the sources and an explanation of the legal situation, i guess
2021-04-28T08:39:29Z Nilby: I actually have some fondness for sexp formats like ccldoc.
2021-04-28T08:39:59Z beach: scymtym: I remember it was tricky to find the sources.  But I have them, so in the worst case, I can make them available.
2021-04-28T08:40:21Z beach: scymtym: We *think* it is free for everyone to use.
2021-04-28T08:41:00Z beach: Nilby: Sure, if you want to try that, that would be fantastic.
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2021-04-28T08:41:08Z scymtym: beach: that's good to hear
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2021-04-28T08:41:43Z theothornhill: beach: But if it's mostly hindered by the hassle of manually doing things, more hands would surely help?
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2021-04-28T08:41:59Z beach: theothornhill: Absolutely!
2021-04-28T08:42:10Z scymtym: i think making the sources available along with a little explanation of the situation would make the project more approachable if that makes sense
2021-04-28T08:42:16Z beach: theothornhill: All we need then is someone to organize the effort.
2021-04-28T08:42:41Z beach: scymtym: Don't you think we also need some kind of action plan?
2021-04-28T08:43:14Z beach: I was aiming for LaTeX to avoid having to translate all the macros, and so that we could use cross references, bibliography references, etc.
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2021-04-28T08:45:19Z beach: I wish gilberth were here.  He is the expert in recycling stuff like this.  He created the "annotatable" CLIM spec from the LaTeX source.
2021-04-28T08:45:52Z scymtym: beach: not sure. people chipping away at the problem in private and a coordinated effort don't seem to be mutually exclusive since
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2021-04-28T08:46:04Z theothornhill: phoe: Is your effort available somewhere? If not, could you make it available? Otherwise I can try to set up something
2021-04-28T08:46:28Z White_Flame: beach: poke him in lispcafe if you want
2021-04-28T08:46:32Z scymtym: beach: yeah, seeing the CLIM spec "parser", i wondered how different the CLHS and CLIM are in that regard
2021-04-28T08:46:37Z beach: scymtym: Fair enough.
2021-04-28T08:46:43Z Nilby: Profusion of macros seems like what you get when you have super-lisp-hackers writing in TeX.
2021-04-28T08:47:05Z beach: White_Flame: Aww!  Another channel! *sigh*
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2021-04-28T08:47:21Z White_Flame: or PM I guess?
2021-04-28T08:47:22Z beach: Nilby: I tend to agree.
2021-04-28T08:47:34Z beach: Nilby: Yes, that's better.
2021-04-28T08:47:56Z Duuqnd: It would be nice if there was a free software clone of Symbolics Concordia and the document examiner. Not sure if it would be at all useful for this though.
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2021-04-28T08:51:57Z Nilby: Concordia was resting on quite a highly evolved stack of things that I don't think we have free versions of yet.
2021-04-28T08:52:32Z Duuqnd: Concordia itself can't be salvaged, I was more thinking something like a clone written on CLIM or something.
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2021-04-28T08:53:50Z no-defun-allowed: I could swear I saw a portable version of Joshua still.
2021-04-28T08:54:07Z Duuqnd: Joshua seems like it would be easier to make portable
2021-04-28T08:54:18Z beach: Duuqnd: I think jackdaniel is working on some kind of CLIM-based documentation system.
2021-04-28T08:54:21Z no-defun-allowed: Best case would be that you replace dw: with clim: and call if a day.
2021-04-28T08:54:38Z no-defun-allowed: *it a day
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2021-04-28T08:57:11Z beach: I honestly think the best action would be for each person to take a section or a chapter, whipping up the PDF of the standards document, and then copy-paste from dpANS into a LaTeX document or some other kind of document.
2021-04-28T08:57:57Z beach: I am convinced that any attempt at automating the translation would be much harder.
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2021-04-28T08:59:00Z loke[m]: beach: I believe any transformation of the spec should be made into some kind of machine-readable form. LaTeX is fine, as long as the content is parseable without LaTeX itself. Storing the information in sexp form would be ideal.
2021-04-28T08:59:10Z loke[m]: That way you can render it any way you want.
2021-04-28T08:59:27Z beach: loke[m]: Oh, yes, absolutely.
2021-04-28T08:59:29Z phoe: theothornhill: https://phoe.tymoon.eu/clus/doku.php and on github
2021-04-28T08:59:42Z phoe: but I'll need to restart this from scratch someday because my methodology sucked at the time
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2021-04-28T09:00:08Z phoe: if I ever restart CLUS, I'll want to do it in a reproducible way that starts with dpANS sources and mechanically and reproducibly converts them into whatever format is required
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2021-04-28T09:00:40Z phoe: the most important is *reproducible* because the standard really needs to be copied verbatim, as all holy scriptures must be
2021-04-28T09:00:44Z beach: loke[m]: But then we have the eternal problem of choosing a format.  We never seem to be able to agree upon such a thing.
2021-04-28T09:01:17Z beach: loke[m]: The reason is simple.  There are so many formats to choose from, each one is going to have only a small minority of proponents.
2021-04-28T09:01:21Z loke[m]: If it's in some sexp form, transforming it to HTML, LaTeX, org-mode or whatever would be trivial.
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2021-04-28T09:01:45Z beach: loke[m]: But "sexp form" is not specific enough.
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2021-04-28T09:02:09Z beach: How does a table look?  An itemized list?  Code vs text?
2021-04-28T09:02:22Z loke[m]: Well, the details doesn't matter. It could be something like '("Some text " (:bold "bold text here"))
2021-04-28T09:02:30Z Duuqnd: The details do matter
2021-04-28T09:02:41Z splittist: a specified clos form. let N input and M output formats bloom.
2021-04-28T09:02:46Z beach: loke[m]: And that's enough to create a failure of consensus.
2021-04-28T09:02:56Z loke[m]: I dunno, point is that I don't think most people would complain, since it's not any specific format, and every proponent of some other format knows they can easily convert it to their favourite style.
2021-04-28T09:03:32Z beach: loke[m]: But if we need to collaborate on this effort, then we can't have each person choose a different format.
2021-04-28T09:03:47Z no-defun-allowed: Frob it, just make the format #<CLHS {12345678}> - no one will know what it is without a nice print-object method and thus no one can complain.
2021-04-28T09:04:22Z loke[m]: True. But you'll have the dictator choose the base sexp format. My example above is what I use for my transformed version of the Maxima documentation, and it works fine.
2021-04-28T09:05:01Z loke[m]: I have written a documentation browser as part of Climaxima that displays the content in a much nicer way than the official HTML docs, and has better search, so I think it's a success.
2021-04-28T09:05:15Z splittist: But :bold is an output specification, not a semantic signifier
2021-04-28T09:05:40Z loke[m]: splittist: sure, it was an example.
2021-04-28T09:06:01Z loke[m]: The Climaxima format contains both visual and semantic specifications.
2021-04-28T09:06:16Z Nilby: The trouble is, we can see how well separation of semantics from presentaion is going for the web.
2021-04-28T09:06:21Z loke[m]: You'll just take the specifiers directly from the LaTeX dpans source,
2021-04-28T09:06:36Z loke[m]: I was working on an automatic converter for the dpand documents that created precisely this.
2021-04-28T09:06:58Z nij: I wonder why PG doesn't fund common lisp.
2021-04-28T09:07:10Z loke[m]: Nilby: My apologies for making assumptions, but did you take a look at the dpans source? It already contains that information directly in the LaTeX source.
2021-04-28T09:07:12Z nij: Maybe it's a good idea to ask him for some.
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2021-04-28T09:09:02Z Nilby: loke[m]: Yes, and I know they did a pretty good job with TeX, but it's certainly not perfect, and they we're exactly focusing on the hyperspec aspects.
2021-04-28T09:09:31Z Nilby: s/we're/weren't/
2021-04-28T09:09:42Z TMA: Nilby: https://github.com/xach/dpans if you hadn't found the dpANS sources already
2021-04-28T09:10:30Z TMA: ah, you have, I reckon
2021-04-28T09:11:08Z Nilby: TMA: Thanks. I think I started with one from GCL, but Xach's is probably in better shape.
2021-04-28T09:12:50Z no-defun-allowed: nij: I would prefer to not be funded by Paul Graham honestly.
2021-04-28T09:13:28Z no-defun-allowed: If you can stomach him, sure why not, but that's not my cup of tea. I dunno.
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2021-04-28T09:13:40Z Nilby: nij: PG want to replace CL with his thing, so he probably doesn't want to fund us.
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2021-04-28T09:15:41Z no-defun-allowed: For one not borderline "political" example, his two hundred (thousand?) year languages are very terse, but I write verbose code, because that is what I can read.
2021-04-28T09:15:44Z nij: Nilby: Oh really :-( ?
2021-04-28T09:16:06Z splittist would be wary of anything funded, as funding implies official, and constitutional conventions are unpredictable see e.g. French revolution, Russian revolution etc. (:
2021-04-28T09:17:16Z nij: But it's also how CLHS was written, no?
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2021-04-28T09:18:01Z beach: nij: Why did you bring up Paul Graham?
2021-04-28T09:18:03Z White_Flame: funding was also why CLHS wasn't completed to the desired state
2021-04-28T09:19:23Z nij: beach: Because he did seem to like CL and might be able to help out.
2021-04-28T09:19:31Z nij: White_Flame: That's right.
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2021-04-28T09:20:28Z beach: nij: Like I said, the Common Lisp HyperSpec was created either from the dpANS or perhaps from the standards document with special permission.  I forget who did it.  Maybe Kent Pitman?
2021-04-28T09:20:41Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, Pitman put it together.
2021-04-28T09:21:58Z beach: nij: How did you think it was created?
2021-04-28T09:21:59Z no-defun-allowed: What I would do is start a venture commune to get common property for any CL work. This has the pleasant side effect of competing with PG.
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2021-04-28T09:23:08Z nij: beach: damn I didn't know what dpANS was, and now it makes sense.
2021-04-28T09:23:18Z nij: I thought someone wrote CLHS by his/her own.
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2021-04-28T09:24:06Z beach: nij: Not at all, it was derived from the standardization documents.  And those documents took dozens of people to create.
2021-04-28T09:24:08Z nij: So with dpANS, we don't have to write CLUS from scratch?
2021-04-28T09:24:21Z beach: That's the idea, yes.
2021-04-28T09:24:41Z beach: nij: But, if you followed the discussion the dpANS is in a format that is not easy to exploit.
2021-04-28T09:24:54Z nij: Now xach has a copy on github. Is there any compiled version (in pdf, say)?
2021-04-28T09:24:55Z Nilby: Funny that arc people started using sbcl, https://github.com/arclanguage/Clamp
2021-04-28T09:25:21Z nij: Nilby: he has a new lang spec recently too
2021-04-28T09:25:23Z theothornhill: beach: what would be the best format, then? Markdown?
2021-04-28T09:25:38Z no-defun-allowed: Great, now I know what libraries to avoid.
2021-04-28T09:26:05Z beach: theothornhill: I am not going to attempt to answer that, because, like I said, any particular format would be defended by only a small minority of us.
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2021-04-28T09:26:50Z beach: theothornhill: And, as I often say, I would like for the entire thing to be encoded as standard objects, with a well defined protocol.
2021-04-28T09:27:23Z beach: That way, we can't possibly disagree on some surface syntax, because the surface syntax would not be what defines the format.
2021-04-28T09:27:43Z theothornhill: beach: yeah, but now it looks pretty gnarly, so maybe converting it to a cleaner (as in human readable) format first could be a smart first step?
2021-04-28T09:28:00Z Nilby: beach: I quite agree with a standard object encoding.
2021-04-28T09:28:04Z contrapunctus: beach: I remember CommonDoc being brought up as such a protocol, last time
2021-04-28T09:28:09Z beach: Yes, and I have suggested creating a single coherent LaTeX document.
2021-04-28T09:28:29Z beach: theothornhill: ^
2021-04-28T09:28:42Z beach: contrapunctus: Let me check the logs for that...
2021-04-28T09:29:08Z contrapunctus: https://commondoc.github.io/
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2021-04-28T09:30:18Z Nilby: I also agree with phoe, that it would be good for it to be reproducible to go rom dpANS to an object encoding.
2021-04-28T09:30:35Z beach: contrapunctus: I must have completely forgotten about this.  Who wrote that?
2021-04-28T09:32:35Z beach: Aha!  It slowly comes back.
2021-04-28T09:33:07Z beach: I forget the IRC handle of Fernando Borretti.
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2021-04-28T09:35:03Z beach: contrapunctus: Thanks for reminding me.  Then CommonDoc might be the best recommendation.  Let me see how it can be used.
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2021-04-28T09:36:11Z splittist: The problem is that documents (for human consumption) are not trees. At least, not at any reasonable level of abstraction.
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2021-04-28T09:37:17Z nij: splittist: why would that be a problem?
2021-04-28T09:37:17Z beach: splittist: That's why I would like to see documentation split into (say) "chunks" where each "chunk" has a unique label and can be inserted into documents in different ways.
2021-04-28T09:37:26Z nij: yes yes
2021-04-28T09:38:26Z contrapunctus: splittist: reeeeaaally? o.O HTML, XML, and anything that targets them like Org, Markdown, etc, as well as XML schemas like ODF...aren't they all trees?
2021-04-28T09:39:01Z Nilby: I don't know specificlly about CommonDoc, but an object representation is really a graph, and can have circularity, etc.
2021-04-28T09:39:03Z beach: CommonDoc seems to do that already.
2021-04-28T09:39:15Z splittist: contrapunctus: yes. and a tiny subset of documents.
2021-04-28T09:40:25Z splittist: There's a reason wordprocessing formats are insanely complicated.
2021-04-28T09:40:54Z Nilby: XML things are only textually a tree, but in objects a node graph e.g. SVG.
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2021-04-28T09:42:16Z beach: It looks like CommonDoc may be an excellent starting point.
2021-04-28T09:43:12Z splittist: headers, footers, footnotes, endnotes, call-outs, tables, pictures; sections of text that don't map to textual content, but to its presentation; annotations that span units of text; styles that do - or don't - compose.
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2021-04-28T09:44:04Z nij: beach: sounds like it
2021-04-28T09:44:20Z nij: But I wonder why don't it uses s-exprs as formats
2021-04-28T09:44:21Z nij: https://commondoc.github.io/docs/formats.html
2021-04-28T09:44:45Z splittist: title pages, front matter, colophons, appendices, schedules, annexes, indexes, tables of contents, tables of authorities, bibliographies, watermarks, borders for paragraphs, borders for pages, ...
2021-04-28T09:45:10Z Nilby: splittist <- this person documents :)
2021-04-28T09:45:14Z nij: So instead of @begin(enum) @item(This is the first item) @item(And this the second) @end(enum), we can just write
2021-04-28T09:45:28Z nij: (enum "This is the first item" "And this is the second")
2021-04-28T09:45:47Z beach: nij: Because, again, the main idea is to have the internal CLOS protocol be the main definition of the format.  Not the surface syntax.
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2021-04-28T09:47:33Z nij: Yeah.. that's the point.
2021-04-28T09:47:45Z nij: I'm just obsessed with using s-exprs as formats of everything.
2021-04-28T09:48:10Z Duuqnd: I like them too but it's important to know when not to use them
2021-04-28T09:49:02Z nij: It seems to be perfectly fine when it comes to latex-like stuff..
2021-04-28T09:49:45Z nij: (eqn "line1" "line2" "line3"), instead of lots of begin.. end.. and indentation
2021-04-28T09:50:07Z nij: with emacs you get helpers for indenting as well
2021-04-28T09:50:21Z nij: But anyway, that's not really the point here, as beach said.
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2021-04-28T09:51:50Z splittist: CommonDoc seems to be basically the markdown subset of html with nestable sections
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2021-04-28T09:53:17Z nij: I do I make file of this (https://github.com/xach/dpans) and get a readable pdf file?
2021-04-28T09:53:29Z nij: s/I do I/ How do I/
2021-04-28T09:56:26Z TMA: nij: I have had success with running: for i in chap-{1..26}.tex chap-a.tex ; do pdftex $i ; done
2021-04-28T09:57:43Z TMA: nij: chap-0 contains table of contents, index, list of figures and also some problems that prevent it from finishing pdftex chap-0 successfully without modification
2021-04-28T09:58:02Z theothornhill: TMA: thanks :)
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2021-04-28T10:01:32Z nij: Wow indeed, thanks TMA!
2021-04-28T10:01:57Z nij: beach , did CLHS add/remove things from dpANS?
2021-04-28T10:02:17Z TMA: for the table of contents: replace ".tc" with ".toc" in chap-0.tex ; for the index: run: sort -t: -k2 chap-*.idx > index.idx
2021-04-28T10:02:54Z beach: nij: No, it should be a very faithful HTML-ized version of it.
2021-04-28T10:02:54Z TMA: and then pdftex chap-0 finishes successfully
2021-04-28T10:03:28Z White_Flame: nij: CLHS added formatting & links to what might have been plain text in the tex
2021-04-28T10:03:49Z nij: What makes it hard to convert dpans into a commondoc?
2021-04-28T10:04:14Z edgar-rft: nij: the code examples in the CLHS and the "issues" pages were added by Kent Pitman, they are not part of the dPANS Tex version.
2021-04-28T10:04:15Z beach: nij: All the TeX macros they used.
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2021-04-28T10:09:25Z Duuqnd: The \input stuff there reminds me a bit of how in Concordia most records were just links to other records. (screenshot for reference: https://i.imgur.com/J9ZWbrC.png)
2021-04-28T10:10:24Z Nilby: nij: TeX is hard to convert by anything that isn't TeX or TeX-based. PDF and DVI are pre-rendered formats that lose much of semantic content. And all of those formats are designed to be smushed onto dead trees, not clicky-pixels.
2021-04-28T10:11:20Z Nilby: Of course one of the cool things about Concordia is it's kind of a Zmacs mode and have live objects in it.
2021-04-28T10:12:16Z Duuqnd: Just like most things in Genera
2021-04-28T10:12:45Z Duuqnd: I should probably stop playing around with it because it's making me dislike Unix-likes and Windows more than I already did.
2021-04-28T10:13:53Z Nilby: Duuqnd: Yup. I've been stuck like that ever since using a Lisp machine.
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2021-04-28T10:15:53Z Nilby: That specific screenshot shows org-mode-ish and non-tree-like features.
2021-04-28T10:18:34Z Duuqnd: There also this stuff which I think is really cool: https://i.imgur.com/SUpdoQn.png
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2021-04-28T10:19:06Z pjb: dieggsy: have a look at: (com.informatimago.tools.manifest:distribution) https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/blob/master/tools/manifest.lisp#L144 ; of course, totally ad-hoc.
2021-04-28T10:19:07Z Nilby: At least that CLIM can do now :)
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2021-04-28T10:20:37Z Duuqnd: Being able to click on an example and having it run is also pretty neat: https://i.imgur.com/h1pAQI1.png
2021-04-28T10:21:52Z nij: I envy this. Dunno if there's any easy way to start.
2021-04-28T10:25:47Z pjb: nij: I guess PG doesn't fund Common Lisp, because he wasn't billionaires after selling viaweb.  So instead he founded Y-combinator VC to fund startups to make him eventually a billionaire.  Note that if you can pitch a good startup with y-combinator (and use Common Lisp to implement it), then PG would fund CL, indirectly.
2021-04-28T10:26:53Z nij: pjb that sounds like a good plan ;)
2021-04-28T10:27:08Z pjb: nij: oh, you meant a standization process? But once your startup will have made it, you will be able to do that yourself, which would be logical, since you will have used CL to  build your products!
2021-04-28T10:27:49Z pjb: PG sold viaweb to yahoo! who hurried to rewrite it in C++… So there's some lost interst in CL there.
2021-04-28T10:28:21Z pjb: PG was a 2-comma, not a 3-comma from it ;-)
2021-04-28T10:32:56Z Nilby: I think foundational Lisp is thing that's above the normal economy, like other technologies say, e.g. GPS, you can't just throw money to make it happen, and it doesn't produce profit directly, but it's super useful and enables whole classes of other profitable endeavors.
2021-04-28T10:33:49Z no-defun-allowed: Not the case for any programming language?
2021-04-28T10:34:09Z nij: and gps is based on gr, which is based on Riemannian geometry
2021-04-28T10:34:34Z nij: no-defun-allowed: dunno. I a noob believe that CL is superior.
2021-04-28T10:35:03Z Nilby: Maybe some. It seems like programming languages can't be sold now.
2021-04-28T10:35:28Z no-defun-allowed: It does not transcend reality. No other programming languages make money on their own, other than creating a net loss for everyone dumb enough to use some.
2021-04-28T10:35:37Z no-defun-allowed: But after all, we're only ordinary men...
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2021-04-28T11:24:51Z daphnis: to remove the end of a string, is there something more straightforward than (subseq str 0 (1- (length str))) ?
2021-04-28T11:27:38Z Nilby: That's pretty strightforward, but if you know it was specific characters you could use trim.
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2021-04-28T11:30:34Z daphnis: yeah, i suppose it is
2021-04-28T11:31:03Z jackdaniel: if your string has a fill pointer, then you may decrement it
2021-04-28T11:31:14Z jackdaniel: but this will be an operation that affects the string itself
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2021-04-28T12:22:14Z pjb: daphnis: if you took the precaution of storing your string in a vector with a fill-pointer: (decf (fill-pointer str))
2021-04-28T12:23:56Z pjb: (let ((str (make-array 32 :element-type 'character :fill-pointer t)) (src "Hello World"))  (replace str src) (setf (fill-pointer str) (length src))   (print str) (decf (fill-pointer str)) str) #| "Hello World"  --> "Hello Worl" |#
2021-04-28T12:24:54Z pjb: daphnis: now, if your string is a tad long, you may want to avoid copying it: (let ((str "Hello World")) (make-array (1- (length str)) :displaced-to str)) #| --> "Hello Worl" |#
2021-04-28T12:25:15Z pjb: daphnis: have a look at com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.utility:nsubseq
2021-04-28T12:25:44Z pjb: https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/blob/master/common-lisp/cesarum/utility.lisp#L1778
2021-04-28T12:27:01Z pjb: daphnis: note, for most strings (length < 24 or 32), subseq will be more efficient, on 64-bit hardware.
2021-04-28T12:33:19Z daphnis: pjb: thanks!
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2021-04-28T12:56:13Z beach: AHA!  The handle of Fernando Borretti is eudoxia, who apparently was here last around 5 years ago.
2021-04-28T12:56:30Z Shinmera: Yeah, he's still alive, but hasn't been doing any lisp in years.
2021-04-28T12:56:39Z Shinmera: I chat to him occasionally on streams.
2021-04-28T12:56:39Z beach: Right.
2021-04-28T12:56:45Z beach: Oh, OK.
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2021-04-28T12:59:45Z flip214: https://github.com/eudoxia0?tab=overview shows still alive and kicking
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2021-04-28T13:30:51Z dieggsy: pjb: oh cool, thanks. is the or there encompassing the os cases  really necessary
2021-04-28T13:39:46Z pjb: dieggsy: note that: (or) #| --> nil |#   So it serves two purposes; 1- protection in case we miss a case; 2- ease of editing the bunch of #+ in a single form.
2021-04-28T13:40:17Z pjb: dieggsy: with paredit, you can easily manipulate list sexps, so sometimes adding a PROGN, AND or OR can help editing.
2021-04-28T13:40:31Z dieggsy: oh, fair
2021-04-28T13:41:06Z dieggsy: i was just talking about how i gave up parens editing frameworks in favor of manual editing because they all felt like they got in my way lol
2021-04-28T13:41:08Z dieggsy: but i'll try them out again, it's been like a couple years
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2021-04-28T13:42:10Z pjb: Oh, and in the case  #+(or unix) it's entirely useless, probably a left over from copy-pasting; but also a hint that we'd like to get a future feature to or unix with for nextstep. note that OpenStep worked on unices (sunos and hp/ux), Mach-OS, and Windows-NT.
2021-04-28T13:42:25Z pjb: dieggsy: I like paredit.
2021-04-28T13:42:55Z dieggsy: pjb: i think part of the fuss is i'm also using evil-mode and none of them quite click with that, you have to use some kind of sub-par adapter package
2021-04-28T13:43:40Z pjb: Yes, that may mess things up.
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2021-04-28T14:33:59Z pyc: While typing code into a .lisp file, is there a way to autocomplete known symbols? For example, form<key-sequence> should autocomplete it to format. Is it available? I tried <tab> but it does not seem to autcomplete. I have SLIME running in Emacs.
2021-04-28T14:34:36Z beach: C-c TAB or C-c C-i.
2021-04-28T14:36:20Z pyc: thanks beach
2021-04-28T14:36:26Z beach: Pleasure.
2021-04-28T14:37:07Z jfb4: thanks beach
2021-04-28T14:37:49Z pyc: M-TAB also seems to work for autocompletion.
2021-04-28T14:37:59Z beach: jfb4: What did I help you with?
2021-04-28T14:38:25Z jfb4: beach: useful answer on autocompletion
2021-04-28T14:38:41Z beach: Oh, OK.
2021-04-28T14:39:42Z beach: pyc: I almost never use the Meta key, so I would have to type C-[ C-i instead, and the [ and the i are on the same hand, so slower to type.
2021-04-28T14:40:38Z jfb4: beach:curious why not use meta key, eg C-M-x
2021-04-28T14:40:42Z splittist: ESC Tab
2021-04-28T14:40:53Z beach: jfb4: Because it is in an awkward position.
2021-04-28T14:41:06Z beach also never uses the ESC key for that reason.
2021-04-28T14:41:39Z jfb4: ok but you can remap in a line super-meta-control the way of the Lisp machine keyboards
2021-04-28T14:42:12Z splittist: It is useful if you are using a terminal in a browser that eats lots of M-... chords
2021-04-28T14:42:16Z beach: I would need one of those Japanese keyboards with a very narrow space key.
2021-04-28T14:44:19Z pyc: (sort '("foo" "bar" "baz" "qux") 'string-lessp) or (sort '("foo" "bar" "baz" "qux") #'string-lessp)? Does it matter if I use 'string-lessp or #'string-lessp? Is one better style than the other?
2021-04-28T14:44:50Z beach: For standard functions, I recommend you always use #'
2021-04-28T14:45:27Z pyc: beach: Would you please elaborate the reason behind your recommendation? Trying to understand why one is better than the other.
2021-04-28T14:45:46Z beach: SORT will then be called with a function object, so no further indirection needs to be resolved, whereas if you call it with a symbol, some kind of lookup is required.
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2021-04-28T14:46:59Z pyc: beach: thanks.
2021-04-28T14:47:00Z beach: I occasionally use a symbol for the :DISPLAY-FUNCTION pane option in CLIM, so that when the function is redefined, I don't have to re-evaluate my DEFINE-APPLICATION-FRAME form.
2021-04-28T14:47:20Z pyc: Is #' a result of Lisp-2 languages? Do Lisp-1 languages also have the #' syntax?
2021-04-28T14:47:31Z edgar-rft: pyc: 'string-lessp doesn't work with FLETs or LABELs, it will *always* use the global function even if a lexical local function exists
2021-04-28T14:48:18Z beach: pyc: The former.  It is a way to take a value in the function namespace and turn it into a value in the variable namespace.
2021-04-28T14:48:42Z Bike: in racket #' actually means something completely different! isn't that exciting?
2021-04-28T14:48:47Z pyc: Okay. Thanks.
2021-04-28T14:48:57Z beach: Bike: Oh, wow.
2021-04-28T14:49:46Z edgar-rft: may I come up with "Scheme is no Lisp"? :-)
2021-04-28T14:52:05Z pyc: (sort (directory "*.txt") #'string-lessp) ; This fails with: The value #P"/Users/pyc/learning/a.txt" is not of type (OR (VECTOR CHARACTER) BASE-STRING SYMBOL CHARACTER) when binding SB-IMPL:STRING1. I understand the error. I am passing a list of pathnames to sort but using a predicate meant for string. What is the right way to solve this problem?
2021-04-28T14:52:47Z Bike: do you want to sort by the entire pathname, or the filename, or what
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2021-04-28T14:53:40Z Bike: you can pass a :key to sort, e.g. #'namestring
2021-04-28T14:53:50Z edgar-rft: pyc: there's NAMESTRING to convert pathnames into strings
2021-04-28T14:54:07Z pyc: Bike: In my case, I will get the same result whether I sort by entire pathname or only by the filename because all my pathnames would start with #P"/Users/pyc/learning/" I am looking for files in a single directory only.
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2021-04-28T14:54:43Z pyc: Bike, edgar-rft: Thanks. let me try that
2021-04-28T14:55:15Z edgar-rft: alternatively you could write PATHNAME-LESSP :-)
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2021-04-28T14:57:54Z pyc: (sort (directory "*.txt") #'string-lessp :key #'namestring) ; This worked fine. Really enjoyed learning about this. The CLHS document also describes the sort arguments very nicely. Thank you all for your help.
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2021-04-28T15:22:29Z Josh_2: Hello
2021-04-28T15:23:49Z beach: Hello Josh_2.
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2021-04-28T15:45:07Z pjb: pyc: the funny thing however, is that directory returns truenames.
2021-04-28T15:45:14Z pjb: pyc: ie. it resolves symlinks.
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2021-04-28T15:46:00Z pjb: pyc: (sort '("foo" "bar" "baz" "qux") 'string-lessp) cannot work, because SORT is destructive, and '("foo" "bar" "baz" "qux") is immutable.
2021-04-28T15:46:17Z pjb: pyc: what do you think happens when infinite force meets infinite innertia?
2021-04-28T15:46:22Z pjb: pyc: dragons out of the nose!
2021-04-28T15:46:41Z pjb: pyc: try: (sort (copy-list '("foo" "bar" "baz" "qux")) 'string-lessp) #| --> ("bar" "baz" "foo" "qux") |#
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2021-04-28T15:53:34Z pyc: pjb: With SBCL, (sort '("foo" "bar" "baz" "qux") 'string-lessp) returns me ("bar" "baz" "foo" "qux"). Seems to do the right thing.
2021-04-28T15:54:06Z pyc: pjb: but you are right, CLHS spec says sort is destructive. so is my code undefined behavior?
2021-04-28T15:54:58Z dieggsy: i was just gonna say, works with SBCL
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2021-04-28T15:58:48Z dieggsy: pyc: it *is* destructive though, it's modifying the actual list. if you store it in a variable, you can see the original list order is changed
2021-04-28T15:59:01Z dieggsy: as opposed to just returning a new list
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2021-04-28T16:02:09Z kiwichap: hello
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2021-04-28T16:03:29Z pjb: dieggsy: (let ((list '("foo" "bar" "baz" "qux")))  (print (sort list 'string-lessp)) list) #| ("bar" "baz" "foo" "qux")  --> ("foo" "qux") |#  does it really work?
2021-04-28T16:03:55Z pjb: s/dieggsy/pyc/
2021-04-28T16:04:40Z beach: Hello kiwichap.
2021-04-28T16:04:43Z dieggsy: pjb: it warns "Destructive function SORT called on constant data: ("foo" "bar" "baz" "qux")" but it does work
2021-04-28T16:04:57Z kiwichap: how are you beach?
2021-04-28T16:05:12Z beach: Very well thank you.  You?
2021-04-28T16:05:14Z pjb: dieggsy: are you familiar with the concept of nasal daemons?
2021-04-28T16:05:52Z beach: kiwichap: Are you new here?  I don't recognize your nick.
2021-04-28T16:06:01Z kiwichap: yes I am new
2021-04-28T16:06:16Z beach: Great!  Welcome!  What brings you to #lisp?
2021-04-28T16:06:31Z pjb: http://catb.org/jargon/html/N/nasal-demons.html http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-4f7bw2esn8w/Ut159zC3X4I/AAAAAAAAENQ/bhy3LecsfBQ/s1600/26831_1419257239999_7976058_n.jpg
2021-04-28T16:06:51Z dieggsy: pjb: lol, saves everyone time  to say "undefined behavior"
2021-04-28T16:06:56Z dieggsy: but yes, i'm familiar
2021-04-28T16:06:56Z pjb: should we assume kiwichap lives in the antipodes?
2021-04-28T16:07:10Z kiwichap: I was interested in making a website or developing computer equipment and was told that LISP is the best for that
2021-04-28T16:07:10Z pjb: dieggsy: undefined behavior is not frightening enough.
2021-04-28T16:07:21Z beach: pjb: .de suggests otherwise, but who knows.
2021-04-28T16:07:59Z pjb: kiwichap: well, at least one guy earned 8-digits selling a web program written in Common Lisp, so it's possible.
2021-04-28T16:08:30Z beach: kiwichap: Yeah, well, sort of.  For one thing, we haven't written in LISP for decades, so if you use LISP, we think you are using decades-old dialects.
2021-04-28T16:08:45Z duuqnd: We usually write it "Lisp" these days
2021-04-28T16:08:52Z beach: kiwichap: Furthermore, this channel is dedicated to Common Lisp, which is probably fine for what you want.
2021-04-28T16:09:05Z pjb: probably the best choice for that indeed.
2021-04-28T16:09:25Z beach: kiwichap: Then, Common Lisp is the best choice for lots of stuff, you websites would represent no exception. :)
2021-04-28T16:09:35Z kiwichap: sounds good
2021-04-28T16:09:46Z pjb: kiwichap: http://cliki.net/Getting+Started http://cliki.net/Online+Tutorial
2021-04-28T16:10:14Z kiwichap: I don't really want to use ubuntu even though I set it up
2021-04-28T16:10:52Z kiwichap: is freebsd good?
2021-04-28T16:10:57Z duuqnd: You can write Common Lisp code in just about any modern OS
2021-04-28T16:11:11Z duuqnd: I've used both Linux and Windows so BSD should work fine
2021-04-28T16:11:18Z beach: kiwichap: When you use a Common Lisp system, you work more inside the system itself than in the host operating system, so you won't notice much difference.
2021-04-28T16:11:23Z kiwichap: ok sounds good, I am using FreeBSD, Debian and Open Suse for my websites at the moment
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2021-04-28T16:13:47Z dieggsy: kiwichap: define "good" - for a server ?
2021-04-28T16:14:22Z dieggsy: BSDs are excellent for servers. for daily use, much worse hardware support than Linux IME
2021-04-28T16:14:57Z dieggsy: or just general maturity i guess
2021-04-28T16:15:08Z kiwichap: yes, I prefer to write my own hardware drivers I guess
2021-04-28T16:15:22Z dieggsy: lol, that's one way to go about it
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2021-04-28T16:16:04Z dieggsy: dunno if i'd call it practical for productive use, but if you have the time, absolutely. contribute them upstream, even
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2021-04-28T16:16:31Z kagevf: loke[m]: thank you - I didn't know about dirname ... yes, that would have done what I wanted ...
2021-04-28T16:16:32Z pjb: kiwichap: a lot of lisper use macOS to write lisp code on (even if deploying on MS-Windows or Linux).
2021-04-28T16:17:00Z kiwichap: interesting
2021-04-28T16:17:01Z dieggsy: pjb: why would lispers prefer macOS over e.g. Linux ?
2021-04-28T16:17:19Z kiwichap: why would they get a mac for that?
2021-04-28T16:17:21Z jackdaniel: there is some historical overlap between lisp and early osx
2021-04-28T16:17:29Z kiwichap: interesting
2021-04-28T16:17:33Z dieggsy: jackdaniel: ok, what about current day though
2021-04-28T16:17:47Z jackdaniel: plenty of lispers lived then and live now :)
2021-04-28T16:17:49Z dieggsy: is there anything that makes macOS better fit for lisp nowadays or is it just... historical vestiges kind o f
2021-04-28T16:18:28Z jackdaniel: I can't say much about osx, but I'm sure that historical vestiges play a role in some lispers preferring macos over linux
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2021-04-28T16:19:22Z jackdaniel: also osx application market is bigger than linux's (if you want to sell software)
2021-04-28T16:20:01Z dieggsy: i mean surer, but that's getting at preferring macos over linux in general as opposed to for lisp specifically
2021-04-28T16:20:05Z kiwichap: makes sense but you need to own a mac to develop with a mac
2021-04-28T16:20:28Z kiwichap: I have IoS devices but I don't own a mac
2021-04-28T16:20:38Z jackdaniel: kiwichap: sure; I don't own a mac so I don't develop with a mac ,)
2021-04-28T16:20:48Z pjb: dieggsy: I don't know, but there are some pictures of lisp conference assistance where there's about 90% mac laptops vs 10% PC laptops which probably run 90% Linux and 10% Windows.
2021-04-28T16:21:02Z jackdaniel: dieggsy: if some person prefers macos over linux and they happen to be a lisper, what do you think they will prefer for lisp?
2021-04-28T16:21:16Z Josh_2: Is there a library that makes storing data in files easier? Basically I'm thinking something like subclass of one class would store in one directory, subclasses of that in a directory inside of that. Not sure
2021-04-28T16:21:16Z kiwichap: they aren't necessarily well designed and they are expensive
2021-04-28T16:21:29Z pjb: kiwichap: it's iOS.  IoS would be Internet of Service
2021-04-28T16:21:37Z Josh_2: with a way of customizing serialization obv
2021-04-28T16:21:37Z kiwichap: interesting
2021-04-28T16:21:49Z kiwichap: I was more referring to the mac like I prefer my cpu to be water cooled
2021-04-28T16:21:50Z dieggsy: jackdaniel: my question was, is there a particular reason to prefer macos over linux *for lisp*
2021-04-28T16:21:53Z jackdaniel: either way this drifts toward offtopic, so as a moderator I feel obligued to moderate you :)
2021-04-28T16:22:05Z pjb: dieggsy: AFAIK, nope.
2021-04-28T16:22:28Z kiwichap: thank you , sorry, I am tempted for a mac for IoS development and was interesting to realize Internet of Service
2021-04-28T16:22:36Z jackdaniel: Josh_2: this sounds like an orm with extra steps
2021-04-28T16:22:45Z pjb: dieggsy: the only thing you have on macOS you don't have on Linux, is Clozure CL.app with a nice Hemlock editor, if you don't want to use emacs/slime.
2021-04-28T16:22:48Z Josh_2: jackdaniel: sure but I dont want to use a database
2021-04-28T16:22:50Z dieggsy: jackdaniel: fair , though i didn't start the conversation heh
2021-04-28T16:23:02Z kiwichap: I paid for a 1 month subscription of a rent a mac service also
2021-04-28T16:23:04Z pjb: dieggsy: on Linux you can run a PortableHemlock with a X11 backend, but it's not as nice.
2021-04-28T16:23:04Z Josh_2: I'm trying to avoid using something like postgres
2021-04-28T16:23:08Z kiwichap: this month that is
2021-04-28T16:23:35Z pjb: kiwichap: try iOS instead.
2021-04-28T16:23:35Z dieggsy: pjb: ah, well, i live and die by emacs so
2021-04-28T16:23:42Z jackdaniel: kiwichap: this channel is known for strict on-topicness rules, discussing other topic unrelated to common lisp is allowed on #lispcafe
2021-04-28T16:23:59Z pjb: dieggsy: but indeed, linux\X11\ratpoison\emacs is great.
2021-04-28T16:24:02Z jackdaniel: Josh_2: consider sqlite
2021-04-28T16:24:12Z jackdaniel: there is a library with bindings cl-sqlite
2021-04-28T16:24:22Z pjb: the keyboard is more responsive on Linux\X11 than on macOS (and on Windows it's horrible).
2021-04-28T16:24:34Z jackdaniel: pjb: this also applies to you, please move with this to #lispcafe
2021-04-28T16:24:44Z pjb: and you've got more keys and modifiers in X11 than in macOS, which is nice for lisp or emacs.
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2021-04-28T16:27:08Z kiwichap: I am using Windows Professional desktop and Windows 10 regular laptop
2021-04-28T16:27:16Z kiwichap: and have emulation software running
2021-04-28T16:27:34Z dieggsy: oof
2021-04-28T16:31:54Z Josh_2: databases suck
2021-04-28T16:32:00Z Josh_2: They are anti lisp imo
2021-04-28T16:32:34Z jackdaniel: I've heard many good things about allegrograph which is a common lisp database
2021-04-28T16:33:02Z kiwichap: the gnu clisp is good?
2021-04-28T16:33:10Z dieggsy: Josh_2: they kinda suck to work with, but they can be mighty fast compared to other storage methods.
2021-04-28T16:33:19Z jackdaniel: kiwichap: it has very slow pace of development
2021-04-28T16:33:26Z Josh_2: dieggsy: like what? the filesystem is speeeeeedy
2021-04-28T16:33:31Z dieggsy: kiwichap: some people here swear by it, others dislike it, i don't have enough info
2021-04-28T16:33:32Z jackdaniel: people usually recommend sbcl and then ccl
2021-04-28T16:34:19Z jackdaniel: (for specific needs also ecl [c embedding] and abcl [jvm embedding])
2021-04-28T16:34:44Z dieggsy: Josh_2: you're not wrong, but then you get into things like disk space and compression i suppose. TBH i'm no expert on the subject
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2021-04-28T16:38:32Z kiwichap: I installed all 3 now
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2021-04-28T16:56:45Z kiwichap: thank you
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2021-04-28T17:23:37Z shka_: fun fact: you can embed two ways with ECL
2021-04-28T17:23:41Z shka_: depending on your need
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2021-04-28T17:39:16Z stylewarning: I really wish there was a tiny no frills Common Lisp implementation
2021-04-28T17:39:25Z stylewarning: kind of like the no frills Schemes out there
2021-04-28T17:39:50Z stylewarning: But I guess it’s such an investment to build an implementation you might as well do fun stuff too
2021-04-28T17:40:48Z _death: you can take an implementation and start removing stuff
2021-04-28T17:43:54Z stylewarning: I think that’s possible but there’s also a certain way people write minimal software
2021-04-28T17:44:12Z stylewarning: namely a very direct style of coding without hooks, lots of indirection, etc
2021-04-28T17:44:27Z Josh_2: Why write minimal software when you can write software that works?
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2021-04-28T17:45:26Z Josh_2: CL is basically the opposite of the unix philosophy
2021-04-28T17:45:41Z _death: I remember lisp500 had an impressive .lisp file along with it.. although with some prettification the .c file was some 2kloc after all?
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2021-04-28T17:47:07Z Josh_2: I read 'The rise of Worse is Better' in The Unix Haters Handbook very recently, interesting stuff and relevant to what you said stylewarning
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2021-04-28T17:48:19Z pyc: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_search.htm says this: "For example, when start-end is true, the ..." but I don't see start-end specified anywhere else on this page. what is start-end referring to here?
2021-04-28T17:48:35Z _death: heh, trying to compile lisp500.c makes my gcc segfault :D
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2021-04-28T17:49:12Z Bike: pyc: typo for from-end.
2021-04-28T17:49:39Z _death: pyc: also see https://www.cliki.net/ANSI%20Clarifications%20and%20Errata
2021-04-28T17:50:10Z pyc: Bike: _death: thanks
2021-04-28T17:50:35Z nij: what's no-frills @_@?
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2021-04-28T17:52:10Z stylewarning: nij: a compiler, author’s personal things
2021-04-28T17:52:20Z stylewarning: (those are frills)
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2021-04-28T17:54:33Z stylewarning: Josh_2: I’m not suggesting hyper-minimalism. I’m just saying that I think there’s room for a Common Lisp implementation that is small and straightforward, and especially easy for a reader to understand
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2021-04-28T18:09:29Z remby: stylewarning: scheme? :P
2021-04-28T18:10:12Z shka_: well, CL is not a minimalistc language to begin with
2021-04-28T18:10:17Z Josh_2: Yeh, sounds like a scheme to me
2021-04-28T18:10:27Z stylewarning: How does this sound like a scheme
2021-04-28T18:10:36Z stylewarning: I’m talking about an implementation approach
2021-04-28T18:10:39Z stylewarning: Not a language design
2021-04-28T18:10:49Z shka_: i understand
2021-04-28T18:11:05Z _death: there is also ThinLisp
2021-04-28T18:11:11Z shka_: problem is, that standard conforming CL is supposed to have shitload of features
2021-04-28T18:11:15Z shka_: including MOP
2021-04-28T18:11:23Z shka_: and a debugger
2021-04-28T18:11:38Z stylewarning: shka_: so that just puts a lower bound on what can be achieved
2021-04-28T18:11:40Z jackdaniel: stripping away interrupt handling, threads, sticking to bytecode compiler (without linking sheningans) and bolting first "standard library" then "clos" should bring you 3/4 way there
2021-04-28T18:11:46Z stylewarning: But the point is to sit close to that lower bound
2021-04-28T18:12:07Z stylewarning: not to have some fabled 100 line C file implementing CL
2021-04-28T18:12:27Z stylewarning: jackdaniel: agreed
2021-04-28T18:12:38Z jackdaniel: another things that could be shaved are tcp, sse and posix funcionalities
2021-04-28T18:12:53Z jackdaniel: unicode is another possible victim
2021-04-28T18:13:02Z jackdaniel: s/possible/plausible/
2021-04-28T18:14:40Z jackdaniel: one could go a few steps further and: implement non-conforming format and non-conforming loop which cover >98% of use cases
2021-04-28T18:15:19Z jackdaniel: unix file system interface could be stubbed with a silly vfs
2021-04-28T18:15:36Z jackdaniel: minimal ffi utilities could be retained to be able to do anything useful
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2021-04-28T18:19:37Z jackdaniel: that would give you an ad hoc, bug-ridden, slow implementation of 100% of common lisp :)
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2021-04-28T18:20:10Z stylewarning: :)))
2021-04-28T18:22:24Z shka_: jackdaniel: that would be few step backwards, not further :D
2021-04-28T18:23:14Z shka_: honestly though, i think that for educational purposes some other lisp implementation makes more sense to study
2021-04-28T18:23:19Z jackdaniel: smaller modules are easier to maintain ;) but sure, given that we have a standard that would be a regression
2021-04-28T18:23:57Z shka_: perhaps even the lisp1.5 with few extensions
2021-04-28T18:24:17Z shka_: like the lexical variables
2021-04-28T18:24:44Z stylewarning: shka_: disagree
2021-04-28T18:25:14Z stylewarning: Scheme-ish is fine to study the structure of EVAL and APPLY
2021-04-28T18:25:35Z shka_: well then scheme
2021-04-28T18:25:52Z shka_: it is much nicer language for the education
2021-04-28T18:26:08Z stylewarning: Depends what you’re educating on
2021-04-28T18:26:17Z stylewarning: It doesn’t educate you about much of Common Lisp
2021-04-28T18:27:03Z shka_: yeah, i agree
2021-04-28T18:27:16Z stylewarning: It just educates you about the *gestures broadly toward the sky* “Lisp”
2021-04-28T18:27:48Z dieggsy: lol, i think they meant more abstractly like algorithms and shit. i might disagree wit that too though. I dunno, I love scheme and I love CL. you can learn from either and make great practical use of either
2021-04-28T18:27:50Z shka_: i guess SICL is the cleanest lisp implementation i know
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2021-04-28T18:27:58Z shka_: but still, it is not that easy to understand
2021-04-28T18:28:10Z shka_: and certainly not "basic"
2021-04-28T18:28:28Z stylewarning: dieggsy: but learning either doesn’t really provide insight into implementation
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2021-04-28T18:29:02Z dieggsy: stylewarning: not at all, agreed
2021-04-28T18:29:17Z stylewarning: dieggsy: and currently in Common Lisp it’s hard to answer the question “what if Common Lisp had XYZ?”
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2021-04-28T18:29:28Z dieggsy: stylewarning: what do you mean by that
2021-04-28T18:30:01Z stylewarning: For instance I would love to know what a computed goto special operator would be like in Lisp
2021-04-28T18:30:19Z stylewarning: Unless you’re a genius compiler hacker like Paul K, you can’t just simply add this to something like SBCL
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2021-04-28T18:31:15Z stylewarning: If we had a COMPUTED-GO special operator, then we could hack something like cheap coroutines in Lisp
2021-04-28T18:31:22Z stylewarning: Or fast interpreters
2021-04-28T18:31:59Z stylewarning: That would be fun to play with, but necessitates a substrate for easily modifying a CL implementation
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2021-04-28T18:32:31Z raeda_: On that topic, I've been playing with Graal/Truffle lately, which is a compiler toolkit. If there was a Truffle based CL, it would be easy to modify it for experiments
2021-04-28T18:32:45Z raeda_: The downside is that you have to write it in Java :p
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2021-04-28T18:33:15Z stylewarning: As discussed, a COMPUTED-GO, or even simpler, a jump table, are not something you can implement in CL as a macro without huge caveats
2021-04-28T18:33:27Z stylewarning: (As discussed ad nauseum in the past)
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2021-04-28T18:37:53Z Bike: can't you? if the implementation optimizes CASE (as sbcl does for example) it doesn't seem to me like you'd be doing much worse than direct support
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2021-04-28T18:38:56Z stylewarning: Bike: well if an implementation supports CASE as a jump table then of course we are Golden
2021-04-28T18:39:06Z stylewarning: But SBCL has had that for like 2 weeks now
2021-04-28T18:39:15Z stylewarning: (I’m exaggerating, but it’s super recent)
2021-04-28T18:39:24Z _death: so are you just talking about performance? or something else?
2021-04-28T18:39:45Z Bike: i don't understand how the simple implementation helps here, if you want to worry about performance
2021-04-28T18:40:41Z stylewarning: Bike: I gave an example of a control structure that is difficult to implement; maybe there are better examples than what I provided
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2021-04-28T18:40:54Z pyc: Pastebin link please for this channel? I forgot it. Someone should add the pastebin link to the topic.
2021-04-28T18:41:07Z pyc: ,paste
2021-04-28T18:41:10Z Bike: i don't think we have a specific pastebin any more
2021-04-28T18:41:12Z stylewarning: Optimized CASE still doesn’t give computed goto; tags would need be able to appear anywhere in the lexical scope
2021-04-28T18:42:00Z stylewarning: AFAIK tags have to show up only in the immediate body of a TAGBODY
2021-04-28T18:42:18Z Bike: not sure what you mean. do you want to jump into the middle of an IF or something?
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2021-04-28T18:42:35Z Bike: C can do that but it makes the semantics pretty messy
2021-04-28T18:43:04Z stylewarning: Bike: sure, that would be what you want if you wanted to implement coroutines
2021-04-28T18:43:13Z _death: the next step after macros is a walker..
2021-04-28T18:43:44Z stylewarning: Coroutines as a static variable (aka L-T-V + mutable cell) + computed goto
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2021-04-28T18:44:40Z Bike: for a coroutine wouldn't you have to jump "into" a tagbody, essentially? tagbody only has dynamic extent so you can't do that
2021-04-28T18:45:51Z Bike: if i wanted to implement coroutines i'd probably start with continuations and go from there
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2021-04-28T18:46:14Z stylewarning: I think the DEFUN would be something like: LET jump-point = LTV(mutable-cell); (TAGBODY (go jump-point) ...)
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2021-04-28T18:46:52Z Bike: well, i mean, so you'd have the tagbody in the coroutine, and when you yield you communicate the jump point back to the caller, right?
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2021-04-28T18:47:20Z Bike: but then you're exiting the tagbody, and you can't re-enter it.
2021-04-28T18:47:27Z stylewarning: I wasn’t even thinking about yielding from called functions
2021-04-28T18:47:50Z Bike: that's not what i mean
2021-04-28T18:48:01Z Bike: just yielding from the coroutine is what i'm talking about
2021-04-28T18:48:40Z stylewarning: (Yield x) = (setf jump-point (incf next-number)) (return x) (tag next-number)
2021-04-28T18:48:44Z stylewarning: something like that
2021-04-28T18:48:52Z Bike: right, but you can't do that
2021-04-28T18:48:58Z stylewarning: Why not
2021-04-28T18:48:59Z Bike: once you return, you've exited the extent of the tagbody
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2021-04-28T18:49:19Z stylewarning: Okay, and when you enter the function, the TAGBODY is entered again
2021-04-28T18:49:24Z Bike: lisp doesn't let you do that. if you want to do that, you'd have to take care of things like storing the stack frame to put it back when you enter
2021-04-28T18:49:56Z Bike: e.g. if you had some dynamic-extent thing in play at the yield point, you'd need to be able to put that back when you resume
2021-04-28T18:50:15Z Bike: it's not impossible, but it would be pretty involved
2021-04-28T18:50:16Z stylewarning: Where am I proposing re-entering an exited tagbody?
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2021-04-28T18:50:30Z Bike: the (return x) is the yield, right?
2021-04-28T18:50:45Z Bike: where are you returning to? outside the tagbody, right?
2021-04-28T18:50:54Z stylewarning: RETURN is a normal RETURN-FROM, a DEFUN
2021-04-28T18:51:09Z jcowan: stylewarning: CLHS 1.7 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/01_g.htm tells you what the requirements are to call your implementation "a subset of CL".
2021-04-28T18:51:27Z Bike: yeah, and your body is something like (defun coroutine ... (tagbody ...)) and you're doing (return-from coroutine), yeah?
2021-04-28T18:51:43Z stylewarning: (defun f () (let ((cell ...)) (tagbody (go cell) ... (setf cell 1) (return-from f x) (tag 1) ...)))
2021-04-28T18:52:12Z Bike: so when you return-from f, you're exiting the tagbody
2021-04-28T18:52:16Z stylewarning: Yes
2021-04-28T18:52:29Z stylewarning: I’m never jumping “back in” the exited tagbody
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2021-04-28T18:52:56Z Bike: okay, so your cell doesn't just have the jump point, it also has the entire stack frame?
2021-04-28T18:53:08Z Bike: or at least anything that's used after the 1 tag
2021-04-28T18:53:43Z stylewarning: In this case it just has the jump point; which isn’t 100% what’s required for a full “Just Works” coroutine with previously established lexical scope
2021-04-28T18:54:00Z stylewarning: (ie restoring the frame as you mentioned)
2021-04-28T18:54:39Z Bike: are there uses for coroutines with no state besides the control point? i've never really usd them but i assumed the state was a large part of the appeal
2021-04-28T18:54:47Z stylewarning: But that’s a deficiency in our definition of computed goto, not necessarily in what we are trying to do with coroutines
2021-04-28T18:55:31Z stylewarning: If you have a computed goto, you’ll have to decide what lexical variables mean if you’re jumping into a lexical context
2021-04-28T18:56:27Z _death: there are also the "off the beaten path" CL implementations like Corman, Eclipse, Scieneer..
2021-04-28T18:56:37Z stylewarning: And hence why it would be nice to have a simplistic implementation that removes barriers to trying these things out
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2021-04-28T18:57:42Z Bike: i don't know how much a simple implementation would help with that. like you could do a fairly small interpreter-based one, but then adding this kind of extension would be pretty involved
2021-04-28T18:58:09Z Bike: and implementing this with an interpreter would be vastly different from doing it with a compiler to the extent it would be hard to transfer what you'd learned
2021-04-28T18:58:16Z stylewarning: But I would contend it’s likely an order of magnitude less involved than trying to hack it into SBCL
2021-04-28T18:58:33Z Bike: (source: i wrote up a scheme with delimited continuations once. when i tried to write a compiler problems happened)
2021-04-28T18:59:11Z stylewarning: Yes interpreter vs compiler vs bytecode vs .... are real implementation issues and written about extensively
2021-04-28T18:59:33Z Bike: i guess the other thing i'd do is use sicl, which isn't exactly "simple", but it's modular enough to let you swap some stuff out
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2021-04-28T19:01:08Z Bike: i just don't understand what you'd do with the simple prototype exactly. you couldn't use it with production code sicne it's not efficient. you couldn't use it as much of a jumping off point for modding a more efficient lisp.
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2021-04-28T19:03:54Z stylewarning: Do any lisp implementations survive that use green threads?
2021-04-28T19:04:48Z Bike: i think ecl was gonna add them back
2021-04-28T19:05:01Z stylewarning: I implemented this but it would be cooler with green threads https://github.com/stylewarning/lisp-random/blob/master/generators.lisp#L62
2021-04-28T19:05:16Z stylewarning: easy to hit the OS limit on # threads
2021-04-28T19:07:06Z stylewarning: But it’s a cool thing to have in Lisp (generators)
2021-04-28T19:08:14Z Bike: coroutines are neat
2021-04-28T19:08:26Z theothor`: FWIW, https://dlmf.nist.gov/LaTeXML/ can parse the dpans repos with some tweaks.  Returns xml, and can parse directly to html.  It struggles with the table macros, but I think workarounds are possible. The xml could be parsed to a clos thing also, I guess?
2021-04-28T19:09:10Z _death: stylewarning: https://8c6794b6.github.io/posts/Delimited-continuations-with-monadic-functions-in-Common-Lisp.html
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2021-04-28T19:09:52Z _death: I used that in a many-turtled logo thing
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2021-04-28T19:10:18Z stylewarning: _death: it’s cool but to me it’s a toy only in the sense that it doesn’t provide an orthogonal feature
2021-04-28T19:10:46Z stylewarning: IOW you need to write Lisp differently if you want this kind of feature using that technique
2021-04-28T19:11:20Z stylewarning: Same issue with CL-CONT-based continuations, where it can’t CPS the standard library like MAPCAR
2021-04-28T19:12:47Z stylewarning: (This is the CL-CONT version of coroutines: https://github.com/stylewarning/lisp-random/blob/master/coroutine.lisp )
2021-04-28T19:13:14Z stylewarning: (It appears like it’s a nice orthogonal feature but it doesn’t work in certain circumstances, whereas the thread version does)
2021-04-28T19:14:19Z _death: yeah, I have some snippets for coroutines using arnesi.. at one time I switched to cl-cont, but decided I liked arnesi better
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2021-04-28T19:16:30Z stylewarning: I haven’t tried it
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2021-04-28T19:43:57Z pjb: stylewarning: IIRC, CMUCL is the only one that still has green threads.
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2021-04-28T19:44:19Z stylewarning: I see
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2021-04-28T19:55:51Z pjb: stylewarning: you can check it in the sources https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/cmucl/cmucl search for process-yield and idle-loop
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2021-04-28T20:08:35Z phoe: theothor`: TIL, thank you
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2021-04-28T21:29:06Z opcode: i need some help understanding car and cdr:  why does (append (cdr '(1 2 3 4)) (car '(a b c d))) return (2 3 4 . A) and not (2 3 4 A)?
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2021-04-28T21:33:32Z edgar-rft: try (append '(2 3 4 . A) nil)
2021-04-28T21:34:26Z opcode: ah.
2021-04-28T21:35:00Z opcode: is there an easier way than reversing a list and using (push)?
2021-04-28T21:35:58Z moon-child: (append '(1 2 3 4) (list 'a)) ; -> (1 2 3 4 A)
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2021-04-28T21:42:27Z edgar-rft: APPENDing elements at the end of a list is not fast in Lisp, if you must add several elements one after the other it's often faster to PUSH to the reversed list and reverse again if finished. Alternatively you can keep a pointer to the last cell in a variable, but this only makes sense if you have really *many* of those APPEND operations on the same list.
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2021-04-28T21:48:34Z saturn2: you can simplify the latter approach with a macro such as uiop:while-collecting
2021-04-28T21:49:05Z moon-child: alternately you can use arrays
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2021-04-28T22:00:48Z phoe: sure, as long as you can avoid reallocating them often
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2021-04-28T23:46:05Z irc_user: Is it easy to call external binaries such as `ffmpeg` in common lisp?
2021-04-28T23:46:54Z moon-child: (uiop:wait-process (uiop:launch-program "ffmpeg whatever whatever"))
2021-04-28T23:47:05Z irc_user: thank you :)
2021-04-28T23:47:55Z moon-child: wait-process returns an exit code.  I think launch-program might also do something if it can't start the command
2021-04-28T23:50:02Z irc_user: Got it, thank you. I haven't actually downloaded lisp yet but it looked interesting so I wanted to try rewriting some scripts in it. Looks like UOIP comes with it and isn't a separate lib?
2021-04-28T23:51:03Z moon-child: uiop is a general portability library.  It is not part of common lisp, but many implementations ship an implementation of it
2021-04-28T23:51:20Z irc_user: Oh okay, I understand, thank you!
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2021-04-29T00:36:26Z nij: Why do some people name their personal systems like this? com.xyz-name.system-name? Should I follow this convention?
2021-04-29T00:36:26Z nij:  
2021-04-29T00:36:56Z White_Flame: it's to avoid collisions.  Because only a few people do that, I"m not sure it's really necessary
2021-04-29T00:37:21Z White_Flame: but if you do use that, there are nicknames and package-local-nicknames that can give a shorter prefix instead of the fqdn style
2021-04-29T00:37:53Z nij: Oh. What does "com." mean?
2021-04-29T00:38:05Z White_Flame: it's whatever DNS entry you own
2021-04-29T00:38:20Z nij: Oh! I see!
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2021-04-29T00:38:57Z saturn2: it's reversed so the names are grouped together when sorted alphabetically
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2021-04-29T00:39:15Z nij: Yes, the rest makes sense..
2021-04-29T00:39:24Z nij: I though COM stands for common-lisp or something.
2021-04-29T00:40:40Z saturn2: i'd say it's a good convention to follow if you want to publish a ton of different things and not worry too much about how appropriate they are for general use
2021-04-29T00:41:45Z saturn2: it's annoying when someone squats on a generic name with a library that's not very good
2021-04-29T00:42:19Z White_Flame: but naming it nij.foo is also likely good enough
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2021-04-29T00:42:35Z saturn2: yes
2021-04-29T00:42:49Z White_Flame: I use 'wf' a lot for that
2021-04-29T00:43:01Z White_Flame: just to make names unique & websearchable
2021-04-29T00:43:10Z nij: yep yep
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2021-04-29T00:50:01Z nij: So as my personal scripts pile up, I will have to make systems that named "nij.scripts.celebrate", "nij.scripts.wordie".. etc? Isn't this a little cumbersome? Is there a better way, like (defsystem "wordie" :inherit "nij.scripts"..)?
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2021-04-29T00:56:41Z White_Flame: if it's private, name it what you want.
2021-04-29T00:59:39Z saturn2: https://gist.github.com/phoe/2b63f33a2a4727a437403eceb7a6b4a3
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2021-04-29T01:01:09Z nij: Yeah, the great article :) Read it many times.
2021-04-29T01:03:40Z nij: Btw.. should I use (:use :cl) or (:use #:cl)?
2021-04-29T01:03:58Z nij: I use the former, but the latter shows up more frequently in others work.
2021-04-29T01:10:20Z Bike: it's not really important. the latter just means :cl isn't interned as a keyword
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2021-04-29T01:14:06Z nij: Yeah that's what I thought.
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2021-04-29T01:36:00Z nij: Should I consider using SICL over SBCL? I heard that the former is "cleaner" without understanding.
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2021-04-29T01:40:44Z no-defun-allowed: You can't run SICL just yet, so you don't really have an option.
2021-04-29T01:41:36Z nij: What do you mean? It's not usable yet?
2021-04-29T01:41:48Z no-defun-allowed: No, it is not usable.
2021-04-29T01:42:32Z nij: It's totally not my impression after re-reading its readme page.
2021-04-29T01:42:33Z nij: https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL
2021-04-29T01:43:17Z no-defun-allowed: Is it not evident that it can only be run in a host Lisp?
2021-04-29T01:43:32Z martinodb: hi! i have a question. I'm trying the maiden IRC framework, so this maiden-silly agent connected to an IRC channel, but it doesn't talk to me at all. The documentation says something about activating it. Doesn't it do anything out of the box? do I have to edit the code? thanks!
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2021-04-29T01:49:55Z nij: no-defun-allowed: Oh! I thought that's just some way CL-ers would like..
2021-04-29T01:50:27Z nij: "Everything should be in a repl cuz that's the coziest place to have fun.. including the repl itself!"
2021-04-29T01:50:41Z no-defun-allowed: If you are only interested in cleanliness, then your code would be subject to the ugly parts of both SBCL and SICL.
2021-04-29T01:54:14Z mister_m: I accidentally did an infinite recursion in the repl (using slime), I'd like to stop this without killing my inferior lisp process, how can I do that from within the REPL buffer? C-c C-c doesn't seem to do anything
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2021-04-29T02:03:33Z mister_m: oh wait does C-c C-c start LDB in the inferior lisp buffer?
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2021-04-29T02:04:11Z no-defun-allowed: It shouldn't.
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2021-04-29T02:07:40Z mister_m: maybe I just missed the SLDB buffer that was created on C-c C-c in the REPL buffer.
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2021-04-29T03:02:49Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-04-29T03:07:47Z asarch: (format t "Konnichiwa, Sekai!~%")
2021-04-29T03:07:59Z asarch: Does anybody know what's wrong with Melpa?
2021-04-29T03:08:03Z asarch: Is it dead?
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2021-04-29T03:15:42Z waleee-cl: asarch:  seems to work here
2021-04-29T03:18:42Z asarch: Oh :-(
2021-04-29T03:19:48Z asarch: I did a downgrade to Debian Stable and its Emacs 26.1 has been failing to get the M-x 'package-refresh-contents' to install Slime
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2021-04-29T04:00:55Z White_Flame: mister_m: if your inferior-lisp gets dropped into ldb, you probably blew the heap, or the stack twice
2021-04-29T04:03:35Z dieggsy: asarch: melpa has been odd recently. I don't use it as my package repo but I search their website sometimes and it's been extremely slow
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2021-04-29T05:08:41Z dieggsy: there's no way to start swank on a unix domain socket, right ?
2021-04-29T05:08:46Z dieggsy: is there a popular alternative for this or
2021-04-29T05:09:30Z White_Flame: the lack of interchangeability of different communications stream styles is a general problem, across many domains
2021-04-29T05:10:56Z dieggsy: so that's a no
2021-04-29T05:11:52Z White_Flame: I don't know enough for it to be a definite "no", but such situations hit me too often between other stream interfaces
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2021-04-29T06:00:30Z pbaille: Hello, I'm new here.
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2021-04-29T06:01:29Z beach: Hello pbaille.  Welcome!
2021-04-29T06:01:34Z beach: What brings you to #lisp?
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2021-04-29T06:02:59Z pbaille: Hi ! What brings me to IRC is picolisp, and what brings me to picolisp is clojure.
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2021-04-29T06:03:25Z beach: I see.
2021-04-29T06:03:39Z pbaille: I'm increasingly curious about common lisp for some times too
2021-04-29T06:04:05Z beach: That's good, since this channel is dedicated to Common Lisp. :)
2021-04-29T06:04:50Z pbaille: :)
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2021-04-29T06:12:26Z beach: pbaille: #lisp is not really for trivial questions, but such questions are tolerated, especially if traffic is low.  If trivial questions become too annoying, you may get redirected to #clschool which is meant for such questions.
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2021-04-29T06:13:21Z beach: pbaille: On the other hand, some newbie questions are not trivial, and the answers to them are often worth repeating here, like for instance the semantics of function calls and argument passing.
2021-04-29T06:14:50Z pbaille: yes I see ! I will use the channel as intended, no problem.
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2021-04-29T06:18:25Z pyc: Does https://plaster.tymoon.eu/edit not work anymore? I tried it many times but it does not return me a link I can share. The input just disappears after posting my snippet.
2021-04-29T06:19:29Z no-defun-allowed: Can you see https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2414?
2021-04-29T06:19:42Z no-defun-allowed: If so, I can't reproduce what is happening to you.
2021-04-29T06:20:05Z pbaille: (let ((a 1) (b 2)) (+ a b))
2021-04-29T06:20:05Z pbaille: (let ((x 1) (y 2)) (+ x y))
2021-04-29T06:20:05Z pbaille: ((lambda (x y) (+ x y)) 1 2)
2021-04-29T06:20:07Z pbaille: (+ 1 2)
2021-04-29T06:20:15Z beach: no-defun-allowed: I can see it.
2021-04-29T06:20:23Z pbaille: I was curious about code equivalence those days. Is there any known works around that. for instance determining the equivalence of those 4 expressions:
2021-04-29T06:21:05Z beach: pbaille: That would be an undecidable problem in general, so I think you are out of luck.
2021-04-29T06:21:07Z pbaille: sorry I'm discovering IRC... the four expressions posted where intended to be after my question. all my apologies.
2021-04-29T06:21:11Z no-defun-allowed: You may reduce the first three to the fourth using substitution in this case, but generally equivalence is equivalent to the halting problem.
2021-04-29T06:21:21Z pyc: no-defun-allowed: thanks! I can see your post. I wonder why it does not work for me. When I click post, it goes back to the https://plaster.tymoon.eu/edit and the input disappears. I don't get any link I can share.
2021-04-29T06:22:04Z pyc: no-defun-allowed: are you logged into https://plaster.tymoon.eu/edit ? or did you use it without logging in? I am not logged in.
2021-04-29T06:22:10Z no-defun-allowed: I don't log in.
2021-04-29T06:22:19Z flip214: pbaille: you could try to use macro expansion to rewrite all expressions to a minimal subset - eg. replace LET by a LAMBDA form.
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2021-04-29T06:22:56Z flip214: but then you'd still need quite a few manually defined rules - eg. the order of variables in LET can be different.
2021-04-29T06:23:33Z flip214: and what about (+ y x)? You'd need to store that "+" is commutative...
2021-04-29T06:24:07Z pbaille: yes, commutativity is a bit out of scope here
2021-04-29T06:24:12Z flip214: and you might need an expression simplifier to see that (* (- a b) (+ a b)) equals (- (* a a) (* b b)) and so on.
2021-04-29T06:24:37Z flip214: so you can arbitrarily far, depending on how much time/effort you're willing to spend...
2021-04-29T06:24:52Z pbaille: but maybe bindings can be ordered using kind of an hash of the value they are bind to
2021-04-29T06:25:07Z flip214: OTOH, I can also see an alternative way -- compile the expressions, and try to prove that the machine code gives identical results.
2021-04-29T06:25:27Z Nilby: As you may know, there are many undecidable in general problems which are quite worthwile and solvable in specific.
2021-04-29T06:25:31Z flip214: Ie. like decompiling back to C or so... that would get rid of many small differences in the sources
2021-04-29T06:25:34Z moon-child: that throws away information.  It is likely to be harder to prove interesting facts about machine code than about lisp code
2021-04-29T06:26:33Z flip214: moon-child: not necessarily...  at least that's a well-defined set of basic instructions.
2021-04-29T06:26:34Z moon-child: those 'small differences' are things you need to be able to handle anyway.  Many of them will result from compiler optimizations, the sorts of analysis underlying which you will need to replicate if you would like to automatically prove things about code
2021-04-29T06:26:45Z pbaille: Nilby: thank you for your comment :)
2021-04-29T06:27:51Z Nilby: pbaille: You're welcome. I think too many time people are discorged from finding useful solutions to undecidable in general problems.
2021-04-29T06:28:57Z pyc: got some clue about the pastebin issue. When I submit in the browser's network tab I see a POST being made to this URL: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/?error=You%20did%20not%20enter%20the%20captcha%20correctly.
2021-04-29T06:29:03Z pyc: but I did enter the captcha correctly.
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2021-04-29T06:31:59Z pbaille: flip214: thank you for your suggestions. I've worked on those kind of things a few months ago (in clojure), I will try discuss it with you guys a bit later. thank you
2021-04-29T06:32:40Z saganman: Morning beach!
2021-04-29T06:32:48Z saganman: Morning #lisp
2021-04-29T06:33:34Z beach: Hey saganman.
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2021-04-29T06:36:02Z saganman: how is your day beach?
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2021-04-29T06:40:06Z beach: saganman: It just barely started.  I need to download some screen-recording program to my new desktop computer and record my ELS talk.  What about you?
2021-04-29T06:41:25Z saganman: it's okay, still in self imposed lock down.
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2021-04-29T06:41:35Z beach: Sure.
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2021-04-29T06:50:25Z susam: Good morning, beach! Good morning, saganman! Good morning, #lisp!
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2021-04-29T06:52:55Z beach: Hello susam.
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2021-04-29T07:17:02Z pyc: Is this a good coding style: https://pastebin.ubuntu.com/p/Y7Y35fwjRW/ ? What I am doing here is computing everything in (let* ...) and returning what I need as a separate expression in the end. Does it look odd to experienced Lisp programmers?
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2021-04-29T07:18:58Z beach: Looks fine to me.
2021-04-29T07:19:22Z beach: I might have left out the last LET* binding.
2021-04-29T07:19:25Z jdz: pyc: What if the strings you're looking for are not present (especially the first one)?
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2021-04-29T07:20:30Z jdz: pyc: The name of the function feels more like "extract-field".
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2021-04-29T07:22:06Z jdz: And I think the function should accept a string, and reading file contents into a string should be done somewhere up the call chain.
2021-04-29T07:22:17Z pyc: jdz: in that case this code will fail with error. I can definitely improve the error handling. however is my style of doing all computation in (let* ...) and then returning just that one thing I need to return in the end proper coding style? Coming from other languages, it felt odd to me, so wanted the opinion of experienced programmers here.
2021-04-29T07:22:40Z pyc: jdz: that's a good point. thanks.
2021-04-29T07:23:09Z beach: pyc: Again, you can probably leave out the last binding, because the name of the function should be enough to tell what the result of it would be.
2021-04-29T07:23:17Z jdz: You could make this into a generic function, with methods on specializing on STRING and PATHNAME.
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2021-04-29T07:23:39Z jdz: In the end you'll see that there's no need for the LET binding at all.
2021-04-29T07:23:40Z pyc: thanks beach
2021-04-29T07:24:12Z beach: jdz: I frequently find it better to give names to intermediate results though.
2021-04-29T07:25:11Z pyc: jdz: yes, I was considering that alternative too. Certainly the whole thing can be written without let binding. so can I assume that experienced Lisp programmers avoid LET binding whenever possible? Or is it just another alternative and both alternatives (LET or no LET) are equally valid and good?
2021-04-29T07:25:40Z jdz: pyc: As beach just said.
2021-04-29T07:25:59Z pyc: thanks for your help, jdz and beach!
2021-04-29T07:26:35Z beach: Pleasure.
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2021-04-29T07:27:24Z Nilby: neo-prog style
2021-04-29T07:27:31Z jdz: pyc: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2415
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2021-04-29T07:28:08Z pyc: jdz: awesome! thanks for the example
2021-04-29T07:28:15Z jdz: In this case I think the body is so simple there's no need to introduce any bindings.
2021-04-29T07:28:51Z pyc: jdz: why do you favor less bindings? cleaner code?
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2021-04-29T07:29:08Z moon-child: in this case, though, for the purposes of efficiency I might keep track of the position of the {{{, to avoid needing to look over so much of the string for the }}}
2021-04-29T07:29:44Z jdz: moon-child has a very good point.
2021-04-29T07:30:33Z pyc: moon-child: great point! in fact I do need to ensure that I search for }}} *after* {{{ and ignore any }}} before {{{. so I do need to keep track of its position.
2021-04-29T07:31:19Z jdz: pyc: I do not favor _fewer_ bindings, but introducing them unnecessarily just create more clutter and more work for brain.
2021-04-29T07:31:40Z pyc: understood. thanks jdz
2021-04-29T07:32:26Z flip214: jdz: but it's a kind of comment, so serves some purpose
2021-04-29T07:33:03Z moon-child: naming things is difficult.  The wrong name is worse than no name at all; the former may mislead, where the latter is self-evident in its use
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2021-04-29T07:33:17Z jdz: flip214: Sure.  But that's the thing about commenting—there's no point commenting trivial code.
2021-04-29T07:34:02Z moon-child: (self-evidence may be insufficient when the thing being evinced is sufficiently complex.  But.)
2021-04-29T07:34:11Z flip214: jdz: "trivial" depends on the consumer ;)    and a few weeks later the author herself might be glad about one more name
2021-04-29T07:34:32Z flip214: moon-child: yeah, right.
2021-04-29T07:34:57Z moon-child: flip214: exhibit A: forth
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2021-04-29T07:36:54Z Nilby: forth is why we have parens in Lisp
2021-04-29T07:39:51Z pyc: moon-child: what is wrong with Forth? we can name variables in Forth too, right?
2021-04-29T07:40:33Z Nilby: When coding in a forth-like language I frequently had to comment almost every line with the presumed state of the stack.
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2021-04-29T07:41:19Z Nilby: The comments themsleves were frequently cryptic.
2021-04-29T07:42:17Z pyc: an off-topic question. Can forth operators act on arbitrary number of arguments. For example, Lisp can do (+ 1 2 3) where + takes any number of arguments. It is of course possible because we can delimit the call with ). Is such a thing possible in Forth?
2021-04-29T07:43:19Z jdz: pyc: How about this: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2415#2416
2021-04-29T07:43:52Z Nilby: pyc: Yes.
2021-04-29T07:44:16Z Nilby: pyc: Any operator can manipulate the argument stack however it wants.
2021-04-29T07:44:58Z pyc: Nilby: how would the operator know how many arguments the programmer wants to add for example when there are no delimiters to specify that?
2021-04-29T07:45:09Z Nilby: A common thing with varibale arguments is to have a count or a fencepost on the arglist.
2021-04-29T07:45:32Z pyc: Nilby: say, I make a Forth operator op, and I write 1 2 3 4 5 op. How would it know if I want op to consume 2 arguments or 3 arguments or 4 arguments?
2021-04-29T07:46:00Z pyc: Nilby: by fencepost, you mean, some sort of special value I keep on the stack to mark the end of list of arguments?
2021-04-29T07:46:13Z Nilby: you just say 5 is your following arg count.
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2021-04-29T07:46:38Z jdz: In the end it seems very unforthy thing to do.
2021-04-29T07:46:59Z pyc: Nilby: okay, understood. so the responsibility for that falls on the programmer unlike Lisp where the paren-based syntax itself takes care of it.
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2021-04-29T07:47:53Z Nilby: pyc: Yes. In fact can use [ or {  as a fencepost thing.
2021-04-29T07:47:59Z Nilby: or even (
2021-04-29T07:48:50Z Nilby: Execatly. In lisp the syntax makes it mostly obvious.
2021-04-29T07:48:52Z pyc: Oh right! That gives me ideas! Write Lispy code in Forth by using ( and ) fenceposts and defining operators to work on them. :-D
2021-04-29T07:49:24Z pyc: Postfixy Lispy Unforthy Code.
2021-04-29T07:50:00Z jdz: Nilby: How are those "fenceposts"?  Aren't they just numbers (ASCII codes for the characters)?
2021-04-29T07:50:08Z Nilby: Except it's still hard on the brain, saying { foo } if
2021-04-29T07:50:54Z pyc: yes, they will just be numbers (ASCII code for the characters) although there is syntax to specify them as literal characters while the compiler still puts their ASCII codes on the stack.
2021-04-29T07:50:57Z Nilby: or rathher { foo } x y eq if
2021-04-29T07:51:27Z jdz: pyc: The case when the number of arguments is lexically apparent in the code is not very interesting, is it?
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2021-04-29T07:52:08Z Nilby: Interestingly if you do object oriented forth, the order seems revered to prefix, so you say: object message message ...
2021-04-29T07:54:04Z Nilby: In some way, Lisp compilers turn Lisp into forth if your hardware is stack-ish.
2021-04-29T07:54:55Z moon-child: not really
2021-04-29T07:55:03Z moon-child: lisp has local variables that can be referred to randomly
2021-04-29T07:55:10Z jdz: Bytecode interpreters are commonly stack based.
2021-04-29T07:56:07Z Nilby: forth can have a scope aka dictionary stack
2021-04-29T07:57:15Z moon-child: jdz: yes, but they can still have local variables.  E.G. examining the python bytecode for 'lambda x, y: x*x+y' reveals LOAD_FAST instructions referring to the parameters
2021-04-29T07:57:24Z Duuqnd: It does look a bit like forth I guess https://imgur.com/nadIIrx
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2021-04-29T08:03:04Z Nilby: jdz: forth has "words" which are equivalent to lisp symbols which are looked up a dictionary. Like lisp, some symbols evalualte to themselves, like T, so can be used for fenceposts.
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2021-04-29T08:09:09Z jdz: Nilby: Yes, I know that much.  But you're talking about compile-time fenceposts, not runtime, right?
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2021-04-29T08:11:11Z jdz: Imagine reading numbers read from a file (or console standard input).
2021-04-29T08:11:20Z jdz: s/reading/adding
2021-04-29T08:11:43Z Nilby: jdz: I don't think there's as big distinction in forth. It's still just a word on the stack. I suppose in an optimizing forth compiler could optimize the fencepost out in a compiled procedure.
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2021-04-29T08:12:26Z jdz: Words are for code, and code does not end up on the data stack (as far as I know).
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2021-04-29T08:12:53Z jdz: Forth does not have tagged pointers, so there are only numbers.
2021-04-29T08:13:20Z jdz: So how would a fencepost number differ from any other number?
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2021-04-29T08:15:28Z Nilby: I think you're right, in pure forth. I guess what I used wan't pure forth, so it did have tagged objects and garbage collection.
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2021-04-29T08:20:52Z Nilby: The most pure forth coding I did was in a bootloader and I can't remember if it had tagged objects or not. The forth-like language I used most was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NeWS
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2021-04-29T08:25:27Z no-defun-allowed: Most Lisp, Python, Smalltalk, Java, etc VMs look like the SECD machine more precisely, which has an explicated environment of some sort.
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2021-04-29T09:33:38Z pyc: what is wrong with this code? https://pastebin.ubuntu.com/p/NRWXCB87tk/ - From my reading of http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/m_w_out_.htm , I should be able to specify a variable name that is not defined yet. What am I doing wrong here?
2021-04-29T09:34:32Z flip214: pyc: with-output-to-STRING or -to-STREAM?
2021-04-29T09:34:33Z pyc: ohh! big typo. I meant with-output-to-string but I typed with-output-to-stream. let me fix that and try again
2021-04-29T09:34:40Z loke[m]: There is no macro defined called with-output-to-stream
2021-04-29T09:34:59Z pyc: sorry to waste your time, folks! let me fix it and try again
2021-04-29T09:35:10Z loke[m]: Thus, it's first trying to call a function called STREAM before calling a function called with-output-to-stream
2021-04-29T09:35:27Z loke[m]: It may be that you're looking for with-output-to-stribg
2021-04-29T09:35:29Z lotuseater: haha I even wondered too ^^
2021-04-29T09:35:35Z loke[m]: String
2021-04-29T09:35:45Z pyc: fixed it now and works fine. thanks!
2021-04-29T09:36:01Z loke[m]: Oh sorry. Didn't see the you already figured it out.
2021-04-29T09:36:16Z loke[m]: The hazards of using a phone
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2021-04-29T09:40:26Z White_Flame: pyc: tab completion is nice to ensure longer names are correct
2021-04-29T09:40:44Z White_Flame: Esc-Tab in the editor buffers, or some other combinations
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2021-04-29T09:53:34Z beach: phoe: http://metamodular.com/SICL/call-site-optimization-talk.mkv is my talk.  It is a bit more than 20 minutes long.  There is a typo on one of the slides that I have since fixed, but I am not going to re-record the talk.
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2021-04-29T10:02:04Z phoe: beach: OK; the typo can be worked around via Twitch chat
2021-04-29T10:02:14Z phoe: (just like last year, I think!)
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2021-04-29T10:17:37Z beach: Yeah.
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2021-04-29T10:42:19Z pyc: If I have a key name as a string, e.g., "a", can I convert it to :a so that I can use it with functions like getf to look up a plist?
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2021-04-29T10:44:12Z pyc: pyc: Here is an example that describes my question in detail: https://pastebin.ubuntu.com/p/2HJD8QDjFW/
2021-04-29T10:44:47Z Nilby: (intern (string-upcase string) :keyword)
2021-04-29T10:45:28Z Nilby: if use assume the default case
2021-04-29T10:47:46Z pyc: Nilby: thanks
2021-04-29T10:49:01Z Nilby: or alexandria:make-keyword
2021-04-29T10:51:29Z engblom: If I pass an object to a function, is it a reference to the object or a copy of the object that is passed?
2021-04-29T10:53:48Z engblom: I mean, if I have (defun foo (obj) ...) and I call it with (foo my-obj), is a copy of my-obj passed or a reference?
2021-04-29T10:54:23Z phoe: engblom: thinking C++ doesn't work here
2021-04-29T10:54:26Z Nilby: engblom: It's not exactly either. It's a lisp object which can be a reference or a value. E.g. 1 is a value, *readtable* is a reference.
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2021-04-29T10:54:49Z pjb: engblom: lisp uses exclusively pass by reference.  Never pass by value.
2021-04-29T10:55:11Z daphnis: if a class's slot symbols are package-specific, how does one export a function that uses the class?  i get "When attempting to set the slot's value to ... the slot .... is missing from the object .... It has a slot pac1::slt, while pac2::slt is requested.
2021-04-29T10:55:16Z pjb: engblom: (while technically numbers and characters may be passed by value when they're small enough, since they're not mutable, there's no difference).
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2021-04-29T10:55:28Z phoe: daphnis: what do you mean, uses the class?
2021-04-29T10:55:57Z pjb: daphnis: one cannot export functions from package.  packages only deal with symbols. You can export a symbol from a package.
2021-04-29T10:55:58Z phoe: if a slot name is not exported then it means that it's internal
2021-04-29T10:56:03Z daphnis: phoe: it sets a slot in an object of the class
2021-04-29T10:56:27Z phoe: and that you likely should not use it, and instead should use accessor functions whose names are actually by the package in question
2021-04-29T10:56:34Z pjb: daphnis: usually we hide the slot behind the accessor.
2021-04-29T10:56:43Z engblom: Thanks!
2021-04-29T10:56:47Z phoe: if you absolutely need to set it and bypass this, then use the fully qualified name: (setf (slot-value foo 'pac1::slt) ...)
2021-04-29T10:56:50Z phoe: but that's ugly code
2021-04-29T10:56:52Z _death: pjb: lisp is pass by value!
2021-04-29T10:57:30Z pjb: daphnis: the reason why is because accessors are methods, code, they can manage the consistency of the object. Perhaps setting a slot implies modifying another sslot, or sending a messasge to another object? If you use slot-value, this cannot occur. If you use an accessor that is overriden, the class can manage it.
2021-04-29T10:57:35Z phoe: pjb: if we use C++ semantics, then we do not have reference passing
2021-04-29T10:57:42Z pjb: _death: but all values are references!
2021-04-29T10:57:56Z _death: pjb: some values are, yes..
2021-04-29T10:58:40Z pjb: The only values that may not be references are as I mentionned numbers and characters, which are not mutable, and therefore makes no difference if they're passed as value (copied) instead of reference.
2021-04-29T10:59:06Z pjb: _death: but even in that case, most numbers and most characters may still be passed by reference, because they're big (bignums, complex, ratio, etc).
2021-04-29T10:59:38Z pyc: why is progn named so? what does "progn" stand for?
2021-04-29T10:59:40Z phoe: in C++, you can assign a refrence and have the referent modified, which is like mutating a place from inside a function in Lisp
2021-04-29T10:59:47Z phoe: and you can't do that in Lisp
2021-04-29T10:59:49Z pjb: pyc: prog1 prog2 progn
2021-04-29T11:00:03Z _death: pjb: right, but saying lisp uses pass by reference is misleading.. the values (which may be references) are copied
2021-04-29T11:00:20Z phoe: pjb: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2417#2417
2021-04-29T11:00:29Z pjb: pyc: (prog1 one-is-the-result and not the rest)  (prog2 nope two-is-the-result and not the rest)  (progn not this not that but the nth-is-the-result)
2021-04-29T11:00:31Z phoe: the same won't work in Lisp because a new variable binding is created
2021-04-29T11:00:39Z pyc: pjb: okay, so what does prog1 stand for? program? or something else?
2021-04-29T11:00:58Z pjb: yes program feature, returning the result of the first expression.
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2021-04-29T11:01:12Z pjb: pyc: there's also prog and progv have a look at them.
2021-04-29T11:01:24Z pyc: okay, thank you
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2021-04-29T11:02:30Z pjb: _death: granted, saying that lisp uses pass by reference may be misleading, because in C++, references are references to the variable passed, while in lisp I mean that the value bound to a variable is a reference that is passed. So sorry.  lisp is pass by value, but all values are references. (apart a few possible immutable exceptions).
2021-04-29T11:03:05Z pjb: lisp is value (object) centered, not (typed) variable centered.
2021-04-29T11:03:35Z _death: pjb: I think KMP once suggested "pass by identity"
2021-04-29T11:04:38Z phoe: the issue is that there is C++ pass-by-value and C++ pass-by-reference, and the only good answer to "is Lisp pass by value or pass by reference?" is "neither"
2021-04-29T11:04:48Z phoe: because Lisp passing does not follow C++ semantics much
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2021-04-29T11:05:26Z _death: phoe: no.. these terms pre-date C++.. ordinary Lisps were always pass by value
2021-04-29T11:05:28Z engblom: If I change my question a bit: would passing an object to a function which then modifies the object change the original object?
2021-04-29T11:05:55Z engblom: (having a side effect)
2021-04-29T11:05:56Z phoe: engblom: yes
2021-04-29T11:06:32Z engblom: Okay, thanks! That helps me to understand what I can do and not do with objects.
2021-04-29T11:06:47Z pjb: _death: yes, it's a good way to express it, "pass by identity".
2021-04-29T11:06:51Z Nilby: I know both pjb and _death know exactly what lisp object is, so it's amusing that thare can be ontological debate about it.
2021-04-29T11:06:52Z phoe: _death: yes, but then again, pass-by-value means implicitly copying stuff in C++
2021-04-29T11:07:06Z phoe: and CL does not copy objects that are not immutable immediates
2021-04-29T11:07:16Z pjb: engblom: there is a single object, it's the original object that is passed.
2021-04-29T11:07:29Z phoe: Nilby: that's because of C++ semantics, obviously :D
2021-04-29T11:07:40Z pjb: engblom: the reference to the object is copied from the argument to the parameter variable.
2021-04-29T11:07:42Z _death: phoe: it does copy, but what is copied is the reference
2021-04-29T11:07:44Z Nilby: If you want to put it in C++ terms a lisp object is a union of all possible types.
2021-04-29T11:08:01Z pjb: engblom: hence pass-by-value, but since the value is a reference, it's pass-by-identity.
2021-04-29T11:08:03Z phoe: _death: and that is also what differs from C++ semantics
2021-04-29T11:08:06Z phoe: hence we have all this current mess
2021-04-29T11:09:00Z phoe: I think this deserves a blogpost
2021-04-29T11:09:27Z phoe: since it's the nth time I've seen this discussion and it would be good to store a compressed version of it somewhere
2021-04-29T11:10:15Z Nilby: and then tell minon and colleen about it :)
2021-04-29T11:10:56Z pjb: phoe: or just a little drawing, of objects in a heap, with arrows from variables to them and between them.
2021-04-29T11:11:28Z pjb: but yes, we should automatize teaching and support!
2021-04-29T11:11:39Z phoe: pjb: lemme quickly write down a sketch of what I am thinking about and I'll post it here for review
2021-04-29T11:12:43Z pjb: phoe: https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/teaching/1213/ConceptsPL/l4.pdfA
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2021-04-29T11:18:07Z _death: phoe: in C (and C++) you can also pass references by value.. if you have an int a, you can pass &a, which is a pointer (a reference).. the pointer is copied and may be dereferenced
2021-04-29T11:19:18Z Odin- got the impression from the Lisp 1.5 manual that conceptually all Lisp objects are references.
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2021-04-29T11:20:24Z _death: phoe: in C++, you can pass the int by reference.. the callee states that a reference to int should be passed, by taking an int & parameter..
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2021-04-29T11:21:22Z codecaveman: I want to write an iterative recursive factorial function which does work backwards: I mean my fact(a b) = { (a=0)->b; fact(a-1, a*b) } function multiplies numbers downwards n*n-1*n-2..3*2*1 can I write one which does 1*2*3*...(n-1)*n using only two variables?
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2021-04-29T11:23:54Z pjb: codecaveman: iterative XOR recursive! which will it be?
2021-04-29T11:23:58Z phoe: _death: yes, I have linked an example above
2021-04-29T11:24:55Z jackdaniel: recursive if the accumulator ,)
2021-04-29T11:24:58Z jackdaniel: s/if/with
2021-04-29T11:25:04Z codecaveman: (define factorial-product
2021-04-29T11:25:04Z codecaveman: (lambda (a b) ; compute a * b! as (a*b) * (b-1)!
2021-04-29T11:25:05Z codecaveman: (factorial-product (* a b) (- b 1))))
2021-04-29T11:25:10Z pjb: (defun fact (n r) (if (zerop n) r (fact (1- n) (* n r)))) (fact 10 1) #| --> 3628800 |#
2021-04-29T11:25:17Z codecaveman: I want to rewrite it so it goes up
2021-04-29T11:25:22Z codecaveman: from 1 to n
2021-04-29T11:25:45Z phoe: codecaveman: which language is that?
2021-04-29T11:25:50Z codecaveman: scheme
2021-04-29T11:25:52Z phoe: that doesn't look like CL because of the DEFINE
2021-04-29T11:25:57Z phoe: #scheme might be a slightly better fit then!
2021-04-29T11:26:01Z phoe: #lisp is a lair of Common Lispers
2021-04-29T11:26:02Z pjb: (defun fact (n i r) (if (= i n) (* n r) (fact n (1+ i) (* i r))))  (fact 10 1 1) #| --> 3628800 |#
2021-04-29T11:26:12Z pjb: codecaveman: ^ so you want only 2 parameters?
2021-04-29T11:26:27Z codecaveman: yes I want to know if its possible to write using only two
2021-04-29T11:26:37Z pjb: I don't see how that can be possible.
2021-04-29T11:26:51Z pjb: You want i to increment, you want n to set the limit, and you want the accumulator r.
2021-04-29T11:27:14Z no-defun-allowed: I would think you could with a cons or a closure to put two values in one argument, but that is following the letter and not spirit of what you asked.
2021-04-29T11:27:20Z pjb: codecaveman: but you would wrap any recursive function with accumulator into a normal function: (defun ! (n) (fact n 1 1)) #| --> ! |#  (! 10) #| --> 3628800 |#
2021-04-29T11:27:43Z codecaveman: yes i would
2021-04-29T11:28:25Z pjb: codecaveman: (defun fact (n) (loop for i from 1 to n for r = i then (* i r) finally (return r))) (fact 10) #| --> 3628800 |#
2021-04-29T11:28:31Z codecaveman: I just wanted to know if its possible to solve it with only two args
2021-04-29T11:28:51Z pjb: The recursive function with accumulator is equivalent to this loop anyways. The compiler can generate exactly the same code for both!
2021-04-29T11:29:02Z codecaveman: thanks
2021-04-29T11:29:04Z phoe: unless you have a clever trick of sorts to encode three numbers inside two numbers, probably not
2021-04-29T11:29:39Z phoe: or unless your function is not tail recursive
2021-04-29T11:29:53Z _death: ldb :)
2021-04-29T11:29:56Z phoe: (and/or closes over values)
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2021-04-29T11:31:43Z daphnis: i'm trying to use accessor functions instead of slot-value, but since what slot to access is to depend on arguments, i'm trying (setf (funcall . . .  and that doesn't seem to work:  "The function (setf funcall) is undefined . . ."
2021-04-29T11:32:43Z _death: you can setf apply
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2021-04-29T11:33:18Z phoe: daphnis: what are you trying to call?
2021-04-29T11:33:24Z phoe: what are you trying to set?
2021-04-29T11:33:52Z phoe: if the accessor looks like (foo bar baz quux), then you should be able to (setf (foo bar baz quux) new-value)
2021-04-29T11:34:12Z _death: hmmm.. but yeah, the answer should likely be that you should pass (setf foo) to funcall
2021-04-29T11:34:34Z daphnis: yeah, but i want to give the name of the accessor function as an argument to the function that sets it
2021-04-29T11:34:46Z Odin-: ... as noted in the original question.
2021-04-29T11:35:36Z engblom: When being in repl, is there anything I can write to see the source or description of something. For example if I want to know what arguments map is taking, can I check it from repl?
2021-04-29T11:35:43Z pjb: daphnis: (defun function-that-sets (writer object) (let ((new-value 42)) (funcall writer new-value object)))  (function-that-sets (function (setf answer)) question)
2021-04-29T11:36:29Z _death: engblom: (describe 'map)
2021-04-29T11:36:38Z pjb: (defclass question () ((answer :accessor answer))) (let ((q (make-instance 'question))) (function-that-sets (function (setf answer)) q) (answer q)) #| --> 42 |#
2021-04-29T11:36:43Z pjb: daphnis: ^
2021-04-29T11:36:53Z engblom: _death: Thanks!
2021-04-29T11:37:11Z pjb: engblom: also: (documentation 'map 'function) or (documentation 'map t)
2021-04-29T11:38:00Z pjb: daphnis: an accessor, it's two functions a reader and a writer…
2021-04-29T11:38:06Z engblom: pjb: Thanks!
2021-04-29T11:39:10Z _death: if you're using slime, I saw this recently: https://github.com/mmontone/slime-doc-contribs
2021-04-29T11:39:48Z pjb: daphnis: with setf apply you need to put (function accessor) literally in the apply place: (let ((q (make-instance 'question)) (a (function answer))) (setf (apply a (list q)) 42)) #| ERROR: Setf of Apply is only defined for function args of form #'symbol. |#
2021-04-29T11:40:13Z pjb: (let ((q (make-instance 'question))) (setf (apply  (function answer) (list q)) 42) (answer q)) #| --> 42 |#
2021-04-29T11:40:28Z pjb: daphnis: so it cannot work in your case (if the accessor is a parameter).
2021-04-29T11:41:14Z pjb: engblom: you can also know what argument an operator take, just by typing (map spc in a lisp/slime buffer.  Then slime will query the lisp image, and display the required arguments in the minibuffer.
2021-04-29T11:42:48Z pjb: daphnis: what are you trying to do, why do you have the accessor in parameter?
2021-04-29T11:43:24Z daphnis: so i probably need to use slot-value then?  and then it seems that i need to export each slot symbol in order to use the function in a new package.  maybe i just put more into one package.
2021-04-29T11:43:27Z pjb: daphnis: perhaps you're doing meta protocol stuff, and using the slots directly with slot-value is the right thing in your case. It depends on what you are doing. What are you doing?
2021-04-29T11:44:28Z pjb: If the function needs access to the slots, it should be in the same package!
2021-04-29T11:44:48Z pjb: It should probably be a method!
2021-04-29T11:45:04Z daphnis: yeah, it is a method
2021-04-29T11:45:14Z pjb: But again, it depends on what you're trying to do, but this seems to be a state secret.
2021-04-29T11:45:26Z daphnis: no, i'm just thinking of how to put it
2021-04-29T11:45:59Z engblom: Is there something that is between let and setf, so the scope is limited to the whole function rather than either having a limited scope as in let or then a global variable as in setf?
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2021-04-29T11:46:27Z pjb: engblom: what's wrong with (defun foo () (let (…) …))?
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2021-04-29T11:47:12Z engblom: I am asking because I would want to write some code that would require a lot of nested let, and making the variables scope to be the whole fucntion would be handy in this case.
2021-04-29T11:47:22Z pjb: engblom: you can also define function local variables with &aux in the lambda-list, but we usually reserve this for macro expansions, since it let you add local variables without having to deal with docstrins and declarations.
2021-04-29T11:47:37Z no-defun-allowed: Maybe use LET*?
2021-04-29T11:47:48Z pjb: (defun foo (… &aux x y z) (setf x 1 y 2 z 3) (list x y z)) (foo 42) #| --> (1 2 3) |#
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2021-04-29T11:48:29Z pjb: but we prefer the (defun foo (…) (let ((x 1) (y 2) (z 3)) (list x y z))) style (foo 33) #| --> (1 2 3) |#
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2021-04-29T11:48:58Z pjb: engblom: also, note how nice LET is, since it lets you bind values to the variables. So you don't need setf.
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2021-04-29T11:49:58Z daphnis: i have an object representing a letter and the slots represents various features, like case, accent, name, etc.  the method changes one of those features.  e.g. (furnish ltr :acute) should lead to the accent slot's being set to :acute
2021-04-29T11:50:09Z engblom: no-defun-allowed: Because I would need to do (let ((some thing)) (do-something else) (let((more things)) (do-again-something-else))
2021-04-29T11:50:34Z engblom: With only a single assignement per let.
2021-04-29T11:51:37Z pjb: daphnis: in that case, I would use case.
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2021-04-29T11:52:22Z daphnis: pjb: wouldn't slot-value be a lot simpler?
2021-04-29T11:53:46Z pjb: (defun furnish (letter trait value) (ecase trait (:case (setf (casse letter) value)) (:accent (setf (accent letter) value)) (:name (setf (name letter) value))))
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2021-04-29T11:54:20Z pjb: daphnis: perhaps instead of writing (furnish letter :accent 'grave) you could just write (setf (accent letter) 'grave) ?
2021-04-29T11:54:42Z pjb: daphnis: what's the point of furnish beyond setting the attributes of the letter?
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2021-04-29T11:55:57Z pjb: daphnis: where do the trait and value come from?  If that comes from a data file, it's an external source, and it should be validated. This is what ECASE does: if we get a bad trait, it signals an error.  And you cannot set slots that are not in the list of cases.
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2021-04-29T11:56:09Z pjb: daphnis: using slot-value wouldn't have those protections.
2021-04-29T11:56:45Z engblom: What do you think about me using (let ((x nil) (y nil) (z nil)) (some code) (setf x something) (some code) (setf y something) ... )? That would make local variables, but not requiring a lot of nested let.
2021-04-29T11:57:12Z pjb: daphnis: now, if there was a lot of cases, or if they were "dynamic" because you'd have different classes, perhaps not know at compilation time, we could have a data structure to map trait keywords to accessors, but we would still go thru this validation and control.
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2021-04-29T11:57:42Z pjb: engblom: (progn (some code) (let ((x ix) (y iy) (z iz)) (something-else x y z)))
2021-04-29T11:57:47Z pjb: note how shorter it is.
2021-04-29T11:58:10Z pjb: engblom: and often the progn is not needed, since we have some outer implicit block.
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2021-04-29T11:58:32Z pjb: engblom: you can also use let*
2021-04-29T11:59:14Z pjb: engblom: (let* ((x (compute-x)) (y (compute-y x)) (z (compute-z x y))) (do-something x y z))  so you can have some code between the binding of the variables with let*.
2021-04-29T11:59:57Z pjb: engblom: (let* ((x (progn (something) (compute-x))) (y (progn (something) (compute-y x))) (z (progn (something) (compute-z x y)))) (do-something x y z))
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2021-04-29T12:00:22Z daphnis: the traits don't come from an external source.   one other thing the furnish method does is that it determines the trait based on the value (if only one trait can have that value)
2021-04-29T12:00:23Z engblom: pjb: In this case each definition of let will have a side effect: it will place a form element on a site and the reference to the element is assigned to the variable. Because of that I need to add some code between (spacers, layout, text, etc) between each assignment with let.
2021-04-29T12:00:34Z pjb: engblom: typically, when you have to initialize some complex objects, you have to use some mutation. then you can do:
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2021-04-29T12:01:53Z daphnis: pjb: but you may be right that i could do without it
2021-04-29T12:02:26Z pjb: engblom: (let ((rt (let ((rt (copy-readtable))) (set-macro-character #\a (lambda (s c) (char-upcase c)) rt) rt))) (let ((*readtable* rt)) (read-from-string "abc"))) #| --> abc ; 3 |#
2021-04-29T12:03:11Z pjb: daphnis: note that even if furnish needs to do something more, this is something you can also do by writing eg. :after or :before methods on the accessors.
2021-04-29T12:03:40Z engblom: pjb: So (let ((olt (create-select ....))) ....) would create a dropdown list on the site, and I can read the value by doiing (value olt). But to create a real layout on the site I need to add some more stuff between the form elements, so I am not able to add everything inside of a single let without some tricks.
2021-04-29T12:04:11Z pjb: daphnis: eg. (defmethod (setf accent) :before (new-accent letter) (incf *accent-count*))  (defmethod accent :after (letter) (print 'yay))
2021-04-29T12:04:41Z pjb: engblom: well, if you call let or progn tricks…
2021-04-29T12:06:22Z pjb: engblom: now the thing is that the rule of evaluations in CL are very precise. macros and special operator explicitely specify in what order, and in what scope each subexpression is evaluated, and for function calls, the arguments are evaluated from left to right.  Therefore you can wrap any subexpression in a prog1/prog2/progn to add side effects before and/or after computing the subexpression.
2021-04-29T12:07:05Z engblom: pjb: Thank you, progn might be the easiest solution in this case
2021-04-29T12:07:17Z pjb: And some functions are specified to return their argument on purpose so you can write stuff as : (let ((x 42) (y 33)) (print (+ (print (* (print x) 4)) (print y)))) #| 42
2021-04-29T12:07:17Z pjb: 168
2021-04-29T12:07:17Z pjb: 33
2021-04-29T12:07:17Z pjb: 201  --> 201 |#
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2021-04-29T12:07:53Z pjb: engblom: print is used like that routinely when debugging.  But you can use prog1/prog2/progn and add any side effect.
2021-04-29T12:08:11Z pjb: or even let/let* if you need temporary variables.
2021-04-29T12:09:15Z daphnis: pjb: thanks!
2021-04-29T12:09:45Z pjb: (let ((x 42) (y 33)) (+ (* (let ((x/2 (/ x 2))) (+ (expt x/2 2) (expt x/2 1/2)))  4) y)) #| --> 1815.3303 |#
2021-04-29T12:10:06Z pjb: daphnis: you're welcome.
2021-04-29T12:10:49Z pjb: engblom: and vice versa. If you have an expression too complex, you can always put (defun sub (x) …) around a subexpression and replace it with (sub x)
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2021-04-29T12:11:14Z pjb: (defun sub (x) (let ((x/2 (/ x 2))) (+ (expt x/2 2) (expt x/2 1/2))))     (let ((x 42) (y 33)) (+ (* (sub x)  4) y)) #| --> 1815.3303 |#
2021-04-29T12:12:06Z pjb: engblom: sexps are very easy to manipulate in the editor, and since lisp operators are very orthogonal, the code (which is actually data) is very maleable.
2021-04-29T12:13:03Z pjb: engblom: there are only expressions, and and very little syntax in macros and special operators (eg. you cannot put an expression instead of the name of a variable in a LET; but apart from those few exception, you can put any expression in place of any subexpression.
2021-04-29T12:14:23Z pjb: engblom: (if (< delta 0) (- b (sqrt (- delta))) (- b (sqrt delta))) --> (- b (sqrt (if (< delta 0) (- delta) delta)))  or even -->  (- b (sqrt (funcall (if (< delta 0) (function -) (function +)) delta)))
2021-04-29T12:14:25Z engblom: pjb: Thank you! Now I would only need an easy way to send stuff from vim to repl. Now testing stuff has been taking time because every time I made a change I have been (ql:quickload :my-project) in order to update repl, and I have not been able to test any function that is not external.
2021-04-29T12:14:46Z pjb: engblom: well, the easiest way, is to type :!emacs RET
2021-04-29T12:15:14Z pjb: engblom: there's a slimv but it may be old and bitrotten.  Better use emacs and slime.
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2021-04-29T12:26:44Z engblom: pjb: I wonder if using some vim emulation in Emacs would cause any shortcut conflicts if using Slime?
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2021-04-29T12:30:45Z engblom: Is this still valid, as it is from 2016? https://fouric.github.io/posts/2016-05-20-getting-set-up-with-emacs.html
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2021-04-29T12:40:41Z edgar-rft: Common Lisp is more than 25 years old and Emacs is more than 40 years old, so 2016 is like yesterday in other programming languages :-)
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2021-04-29T13:03:08Z engblom: I got emacs installed. In vim I would use :set background=dark to automatically change the colors of highlightning to be readable on a dark background. Is there something similar that can quickly be done in Emacs. Right now I can not read the code with my poor eyes (when running emacs -nw).
2021-04-29T13:03:51Z _death: color-theme-select
2021-04-29T13:06:37Z beach: pjb: Common Lisp uses pass-by-value.
2021-04-29T13:06:57Z beach: Wow, I wish I hadn't been absent.
2021-04-29T13:08:03Z beach: Nilby: The semantics is always "uniform reference semantics".
2021-04-29T13:08:08Z _death: engblom: well, apparently color-theme is the old, deprecated, obsolete, ex-parrot way nowadays.
2021-04-29T13:08:45Z beach: engblom: I am sorry my fellow #lisp participants probably confused the hell out of you.
2021-04-29T13:09:34Z engblom: beach: I still think I got the answer :)
2021-04-29T13:09:57Z beach: Oh, good.  I guess I can't take a break anymore. :)
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2021-04-29T13:12:43Z jmercouris: what does it mean anyways to say Lisp uses "pass by x" anyways
2021-04-29T13:12:55Z jmercouris: in the context of C I can understand it
2021-04-29T13:12:56Z beach: Pass by value means that arguments are evaluated bore a function is invoked.
2021-04-29T13:12:59Z jmercouris: I don't see how this applies in Lisp
2021-04-29T13:13:11Z jmercouris: beach: aha!
2021-04-29T13:13:13Z beach: nothing else.
2021-04-29T13:13:20Z jmercouris: I see, but aren't they just nested forms?
2021-04-29T13:13:24Z jmercouris: so of /course/ they are evaluated
2021-04-29T13:13:40Z jmercouris: so if I do (funcx (qrt)), (qrt) must be evaluated first
2021-04-29T13:13:41Z beach: Yes, most languages use call-by-value semantics.
2021-04-29T13:14:00Z cer-0: Yup, exactly
2021-04-29T13:14:04Z beach: But some weird languages, like C++ and Pascal (with VAR) use call by reference.
2021-04-29T13:14:07Z jmercouris: how could (qrt) not be evaluated?
2021-04-29T13:14:13Z jmercouris: I don't even understand why that would be possible
2021-04-29T13:14:16Z beach: C++ with & parameters.
2021-04-29T13:14:43Z beach: It means that you don't evaluate the argument, and instead you pass a reference to a place (or an l-value).
2021-04-29T13:14:54Z jmercouris: seems idiotic
2021-04-29T13:15:08Z jmercouris: what would be the reasoning behind that?
2021-04-29T13:15:09Z jmercouris: performance?
2021-04-29T13:15:18Z jmercouris: making programs convoluted?
2021-04-29T13:15:19Z beach: It is idiotic, but necessary because they don't use "uniform reference semantics".
2021-04-29T13:15:36Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: (qrt) is not evaluated, when it is an argument to a macro
2021-04-29T13:15:50Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: that's true, but unrelated to what we were talking about
2021-04-29T13:15:50Z jackdaniel: this is simply part of the common lisp evaluation rules, not something "natural" or obvious
2021-04-29T13:15:59Z cer-0: IIRC there are some cases when you don't apply this behaviour, take cond for example if you write incorrect code after a valid clause they won't be evaluated.
2021-04-29T13:15:59Z jmercouris: I am pretty sure it is natural AND obvious
2021-04-29T13:16:03Z beach: Oh, more confusing the hell out of people, great!!!!
2021-04-29T13:16:17Z jackdaniel: it is related, because you present it as some natural consequence of some unspecified rule of the universe
2021-04-29T13:16:26Z jmercouris: In my eyes, it seems very natural
2021-04-29T13:16:37Z jmercouris: perhaps we conceptualize the world differently
2021-04-29T13:16:40Z jmercouris: I couldn't see it any other way
2021-04-29T13:16:42Z jackdaniel will back down to not confuse people hell out and leave the explanation to beach and jmercouris 
2021-04-29T13:16:52Z beach: jmercouris: So, C and C++, when you call a function with an "object" will copy the object by default.
2021-04-29T13:17:25Z beach: jmercouris: Because C and C++ distinguishes between "objects" and "pointers".
2021-04-29T13:17:36Z beach: Let's call that "copy semantics".
2021-04-29T13:17:39Z jmercouris: right
2021-04-29T13:17:48Z jmercouris: but why? what is the purported advantage?
2021-04-29T13:17:54Z beach: So if you call a function with an object, the object will be copied before it is passed to the callee.
2021-04-29T13:18:16Z beach: It has to be that way, because they don't have automatic memory management.
2021-04-29T13:18:20Z jmercouris: I've never been programming Lisp and thought "Man, if only I had pointers that way"
2021-04-29T13:18:33Z beach: Otherwise, they can't know whether an object is live or not.
2021-04-29T13:18:49Z jmercouris: is it not possible to make a language without a GC without pointers?
2021-04-29T13:18:56Z beach: So they have to copy in order to make sure that the number of references to an object is always 1.
2021-04-29T13:19:36Z beach: Sure, but such a language would be pretty useless.
2021-04-29T13:20:16Z beach: You could not represent a graph with cycles in such a language.
2021-04-29T13:20:32Z Bike: imagine a struct that's small enough to fit in two registers. if you pass it to a function, it's passed in registers without memory being touched. if that function alters a field, it just alters a register. when the function returns, the caller registers are restored from the stack, so the struct in the caller is what it was before the call. ergo, the object is "copied"
2021-04-29T13:20:34Z jmercouris: you would need a reference, and simply reinvent pointers in some way
2021-04-29T13:20:35Z jmercouris: I see
2021-04-29T13:21:10Z Bike: C++ then adds copy constructors and move constructors and prvalues and xvalues and my god it just keeps going
2021-04-29T13:21:23Z beach: So, as Bike says, the other consequence of "copy semantics" is that a function can't modify an object that you pass to it, because it is always copied.
2021-04-29T13:21:43Z jmercouris: hm, I see
2021-04-29T13:21:49Z beach: That's why C++ needs to be able to call by reference.
2021-04-29T13:21:53Z Bike: the concept of a "move constructor" is basically what beach is talking about with the number of references only being one. if you "move" an object instead of "copying" it, the old thing referring to it no longer does
2021-04-29T13:22:09Z Bike: the semantics are pretty confusing, but that's what you need to do to keep this stuff up efficiently, i guess
2021-04-29T13:22:31Z jmercouris: I'm glad to not be a C++ developer today
2021-04-29T13:22:40Z beach: Yes, it is necessarily confusing because of the lack of automatic memory management and all the consequences that follow from that decision.
2021-04-29T13:23:26Z beach: So, to me, the only sane programming model is "call-by-value" and "uniform references semantics" which is what Common Lisp uses, no matter what other people here might say.
2021-04-29T13:24:29Z beach: Granted, most modern languages do the same thing, perhaps with a few exceptional cases like Java that handles machine integers differently, or it used to.
2021-04-29T13:25:20Z beach: It is quite amazing to me the snowball effect that lack of automatic memory management creates.
2021-04-29T13:28:05Z jmercouris: yeah, pretty fascinating
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2021-04-29T13:29:55Z beach: Nilby, pbj: In my opinion, it is pedagogically unhelpful to bring up the performance hack that immediate objects such as fixnums and characters use, since those objects are immutable.  The semantics would still be "uniform reference semantics".  At least, it is unhelpful to someone who has no clue.  You can bring it up when they start asking about references to small objects like characters.
2021-04-29T13:32:38Z pjb: Agreed.
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2021-04-29T13:33:55Z pjb: (Yes, I was confused about the pass by reference / pass by value, sorry).
2021-04-29T13:35:05Z jmercouris: We all make mistakes, I do it basically nonstop
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2021-04-29T13:35:25Z pjb: jmercouris: (qrt) could be not evaluated in a lazy language; or if it was a place, and if lisp used pass-by-reference (of places).
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2021-04-29T13:36:06Z Nilby: Yes, but I'm not sure saying "uniform reference semantics" or just saying "pass by value" will help someone familiar with C++. I think the problem with explaining is Lisp is defined by semantics, while C is defined by memory contents and addresses. The closest I can think of to relate to C is that lisp objects are tagged unions with internal pointers which are passed by value, but may have a bunch of built-in access methods
2021-04-29T13:36:42Z pjb: jmercouris: the pass-by-reference is normally used for output or in/out parameters. In languages like pascal, modula-2 modula-3, ada, etc.
2021-04-29T13:36:51Z jmercouris: I think the best thing to do is wipe your mind when learning lisp
2021-04-29T13:36:52Z pjb: jmercouris: note that those languages don't have multiple value results…
2021-04-29T13:36:55Z jmercouris: and pretend you've never programmed in your life
2021-04-29T13:37:08Z jmercouris: my biggest mistake in the beginning was taking concepts from other programming languages and attempting to apply them
2021-04-29T13:37:20Z pjb: in lisp since we have multiple-value results (or we can easily return lists like in emacs lisp), in/out or output parameter are not needed.
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2021-04-29T13:37:42Z jmercouris: it's a natural thing to do
2021-04-29T13:37:45Z jmercouris: people wish to learn by translation
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2021-04-29T13:37:55Z jmercouris: but it is not always possible to translate every word or concept from one language to another
2021-04-29T13:38:15Z jmercouris: the biggest problem is that so many programmers, myself included are monolingual (I was, at least)
2021-04-29T13:38:26Z jmercouris: perhaps we know 5, 10 languages, but they are all different flavors of the same algol dialect
2021-04-29T13:38:36Z pjb: jmercouris: in C, we use pointers to the variables to do that, so it's explicit (but also confusing is that a pointer to a variable for an output parameter, an in/out parameter, or is that just a pointer as input parameter?). So C++ has & references to distinguish it from input pointers.\
2021-04-29T13:38:40Z jmercouris: I used many languages before Lisp, and they were all the different, but the same
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2021-04-29T13:39:23Z pjb: jmercouris: but of course, C++ and C++ programmers also complexify things up with copy semantics and stuff like that so that references are also used in more "subtil" ways.
2021-04-29T13:39:38Z beach: Nilby: It is hard to help people who don't bother to learn standard terminology in the field.
2021-04-29T13:40:05Z jmercouris: pjb: subtle*
2021-04-29T13:40:10Z beach: Nilby: The only way I can see how to do that, is to start by teaching them such terminology.
2021-04-29T13:40:15Z pjb: With lisp, smalltalk, modula-2, prolog, haskell you cover most of it.
2021-04-29T13:40:17Z jmercouris: and pronounced "suttle"
2021-04-29T13:40:35Z jmercouris: is it "subtil" in French?
2021-04-29T13:40:39Z pjb: jmercouris: right. Sometimes by braintranslate skip words, sorry.
2021-04-29T13:40:45Z pjb: Yes.
2021-04-29T13:40:48Z jmercouris: seems like a French word
2021-04-29T13:41:09Z phoe: beach: the main issue is that "pass-by-value" is an overloaded term
2021-04-29T13:41:24Z beach: phoe: It is not.  Never has been.  Never should be.
2021-04-29T13:41:34Z beach: It just means that arguments are evaluated before passed to a function.
2021-04-29T13:41:35Z jmercouris: I see beach is a fan of double spaces after a period
2021-04-29T13:41:45Z beach: Sorry.  Old habit.
2021-04-29T13:41:48Z beach: From Emacs.
2021-04-29T13:41:49Z phoe: beach: yes, it is: in C++, "pass-by-value" means "but alo copy the parameter"
2021-04-29T13:42:11Z beach: phoe: Nope, it is not C++ specific.  It is simple computer science.
2021-04-29T13:42:36Z jmercouris: are we engineers, computer scientists? developers?
2021-04-29T13:42:39Z beach: phoe: What the object is that is passed to the callee is an orthogonal issue.
2021-04-29T13:42:46Z jmercouris: beach: what do you say?
2021-04-29T13:42:59Z Nilby: beach: Also, the first link when searching for "uniform reference semantics" is written by you.
2021-04-29T13:43:07Z beach: That is why I use "uniform reference semantics" for that orthogonal issue.
2021-04-29T13:43:14Z jmercouris: Nilby: your search results may be customized based on your prior search history
2021-04-29T13:43:23Z beach: Nilby: I am well aware that I invented the term.
2021-04-29T13:43:24Z pjb: phoe: well, in C copied values are limited to words pushed to the stack, so usually only numbers characters and pointers are copied.  But more recently, small structures too (and returned).  But in C++ whole objects and structures can be copied. And with the funny thing that if you pass an instance of a subclass, only the slot of the superclass (declared for the parameter) are copied! So you can have half objects!
2021-04-29T13:43:36Z beach: Nilby: But when I did, there was nothing else to explain it.
2021-04-29T13:43:58Z pjb: This is all silly, and the only reasonable way to program in C or C++ is to use pointers for everything, and start greenspunning.
2021-04-29T13:44:00Z phoe: beach: yes, that's the part that is troublesome - answering "Lisp is pass-by-value" does not solve the whole problem
2021-04-29T13:44:23Z beach: phoe: Which is why I always bring up "uniform reference semantics" at the same time.
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2021-04-29T13:45:11Z pjb: Hi, 4-dimensional being!
2021-04-29T13:45:30Z pjb: How do you project today?
2021-04-29T13:46:15Z jmercouris: we are only three dimensional beings
2021-04-29T13:46:27Z Nilby: Maybe we should just tell people to read that when the question comes up.
2021-04-29T13:46:28Z jackdaniel: forever young
2021-04-29T13:46:36Z jackdaniel: forever static
2021-04-29T13:47:29Z pjb: jmercouris: not hypercube.
2021-04-29T13:48:08Z phoe: Nilby: a long research paper is hardly a good answer to a simple-seeming question
2021-04-29T13:48:13Z pjb: jmercouris: also, since the general relativity we know that we live actually in a 4-dimensional space, and we're interconnected 4-dimensional breads.
2021-04-29T13:48:16Z phoe: there should be a distilled version somewhere
2021-04-29T13:48:32Z beach: I am tempted to write one.
2021-04-29T13:48:45Z pjb: phoe: distilled: 42.  the details: millions of years of computing and inferencing…
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2021-04-29T13:49:39Z phoe: beach: so am I; if you feel like it and have the cycles, please do so
2021-04-29T13:49:58Z beach: *sigh*  I'll try.
2021-04-29T13:51:23Z beach: I can whip something like that up in no time at all, but then there is the drudge: turning into HTML or something like that, figuring out where to put it.  Insert references, emphasis, blablabla.
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2021-04-29T13:52:12Z phoe: beach: I can edit it
2021-04-29T13:52:18Z Bike: i've found markdown pretty good for writing without thinking about that stuff too much
2021-04-29T13:52:26Z Bike: wouldn't be good for like an actual paper probably
2021-04-29T13:52:26Z phoe: this, me too
2021-04-29T13:52:35Z jmercouris: I've found ORG mode to be best
2021-04-29T13:52:48Z jmercouris: I just write in org mode, and then org->html via that one haskell program
2021-04-29T13:52:51Z jmercouris: can't remember the name...
2021-04-29T13:52:54Z Bike: org's good too. i don't know how to put it into html though.
2021-04-29T13:53:27Z jmercouris: this for example; https://nyxt.atlas.engineer/article/class-based-functional-configuration.org
2021-04-29T13:53:31Z jmercouris: it's an org mode file converted
2021-04-29T13:54:11Z jmercouris: pandoc, there we go
2021-04-29T13:54:13Z jmercouris: the program is called pandoc
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2021-04-29T14:10:57Z engblom: I just got Emacs setup and want to begin coding. How I am supposed to load a package so I can access even the functions that are not exported from repl?
2021-04-29T14:11:15Z phoe: oh right! I forgot to link this one
2021-04-29T14:11:16Z phoe: https://stevelosh.com/blog/2018/08/a-road-to-common-lisp/
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2021-04-29T14:18:33Z engblom: I mean, I have a project under ~/common-lisp/gpon (with gpon.asd in that directory and the source files under ~/common-lisp/gpon/src). Now when editing src/main.lisp I can not compile the whole file with C-c C-k because then it fails to compile, even thou (ql:quickload :gpon) works great and I can run the external functions after that. How do I correctly load a whole package in Emacs+slim, so I also can
2021-04-29T14:18:40Z engblom: access the internal functions?
2021-04-29T14:18:51Z phoe: hmmm
2021-04-29T14:18:56Z phoe: do you have IN-PACKAGE on top of your file?
2021-04-29T14:19:05Z jackdaniel: engblom: put (in-package #:asdf-user) in top of the asd file
2021-04-29T14:19:06Z phoe: what is the concrete error that is being signaled?
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2021-04-29T14:19:18Z jackdaniel: it is dubbed as a bad thing by the previous asdf maintainer, but oh well
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2021-04-29T14:19:53Z jackdaniel: ah, nevermind, I misunderstood the problem
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2021-04-29T14:20:40Z engblom: phoe: "The name "ALEXANDRIA" does not designate any package."
2021-04-29T14:20:56Z beach: http://metamodular.com/common-lisp-semantics.text for instance
2021-04-29T14:21:50Z beach: engblom: You may have to ASDF or Quickload the Alexandria system first.
2021-04-29T14:22:09Z phoe: engblom: do you have ALEXANDRIA in your ASD file's DEPENDS-ON?
2021-04-29T14:22:28Z beach: phoe: I went a bit overboard.  That text could be split into two different parts with one referring to the other.
2021-04-29T14:22:38Z phoe: beach: I'm hacking something up right now
2021-04-29T14:23:06Z beach: phoe: Something you wrote, or something derived from mine?
2021-04-29T14:23:17Z phoe: beach: my own
2021-04-29T14:23:34Z beach: Oh, I could have avoided the effort.  Oh well.
2021-04-29T14:23:40Z beach: I'll just go prepare dinner instead.
2021-04-29T14:23:48Z phoe: I'm trying to note down my own idea for it, and then I'll take a look at yours too
2021-04-29T14:23:50Z beach: What a day! *sigh*.
2021-04-29T14:24:01Z phoe: it'll be good to have another mind try and tackle this problem independently
2021-04-29T14:24:09Z Xach: Please, no more than two minds
2021-04-29T14:24:20Z phoe: okay, just me and beach then
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2021-04-29T14:25:28Z engblom: So what is the exact procedure that I should do to be able to send stuff over to Slime REPL from emacs? Is it first adding (in-package #:asdf-user), as jackdaniel suggested, then once (ql:quickload :gpon)?
2021-04-29T14:26:12Z phoe: I don't think so
2021-04-29T14:26:29Z phoe: when I want to hack on e.g. phoe-toolbox, I do (ql:quickload :phoe-toolbox) and then open up one of its source files
2021-04-29T14:26:45Z phoe: I write my stuff, then hit C-c C-k, and everything gets compiled just fine
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2021-04-29T14:30:35Z engblom: I got it to compile, but can still not access the functions that are not exported.
2021-04-29T14:30:47Z phoe: not exported from where?
2021-04-29T14:30:51Z phoe: and access from which package?
2021-04-29T14:31:53Z engblom: phoe: The source file is having a defpackage where I export main:   (:export :main)
2021-04-29T14:32:14Z phoe: so something like (defpackage :my-package ... (:export :main)), right?
2021-04-29T14:32:21Z engblom: Yes
2021-04-29T14:32:32Z phoe: so from CL-USER you should be able to 'my-package:main
2021-04-29T14:32:39Z phoe: and this should not signal an error but instead return the symbol
2021-04-29T14:32:53Z engblom: Yes, that I am able to do
2021-04-29T14:33:09Z engblom: But I can not test any other function I am currently working on.
2021-04-29T14:33:38Z phoe: that's the whole point of exporting things
2021-04-29T14:33:44Z phoe: you only export stuff that you want other people to use
2021-04-29T14:33:51Z phoe: there are two solutions to that
2021-04-29T14:33:57Z phoe: 1) (in-package :my-package)
2021-04-29T14:34:15Z phoe: this way your REPL will jump into that package, and you will be able to freely access internal symbols of that package
2021-04-29T14:34:42Z phoe: 2) use the doublecolon like my-package::foo when accessing internal symbols
2021-04-29T14:36:43Z engblom: phoe: Thanks! Now I think I will get an acceptable work flow. I get to test the stuff much faster, without having to export everything I write (except for what will need to be exported in the end product).
2021-04-29T14:36:58Z phoe: yes, that's the point of IN-PACKAGE
2021-04-29T14:37:17Z phoe: when you're working on code a given package, it's often beneficial to have the REPL in it exactly for this reason
2021-04-29T14:37:53Z phoe: when e.g. doing testing it's worth to jump out of that package, even if only to ensure that the tests are not using unexported functionality and that all symbols that should be exported actually are exported
2021-04-29T14:39:22Z engblom: Ok
2021-04-29T14:39:34Z engblom: Thank you, you have been to much help!
2021-04-29T14:45:56Z phoe: no problem
2021-04-29T14:46:09Z phoe: now let me quickly hack up this blogpost sketch before beach returns
2021-04-29T14:46:31Z beach: I am here, and I am observing you... :)
2021-04-29T14:46:35Z phoe: !!!!!!!
2021-04-29T14:46:45Z phoe puts on a fake moustache
2021-04-29T14:47:04Z beach: No need.  I haven't seen you after the haircut.
2021-04-29T14:55:27Z engblom: I have been using cl-project for creating the project skeleton. Each time I create a simple project for experimenting I need to edit the asd file or I will not be able to compile with just asdf:make. Is there a better alternative for creating a project skeleton?
2021-04-29T14:57:03Z beach: I don't see the point, really.  Projects are not created often, and they all have a different set of file, barring perhaps two such files.
2021-04-29T14:57:57Z vms14: engblom: having lisp in your hand, should be easy to make your project builder
2021-04-29T14:58:10Z vms14: and would fit your needs much better
2021-04-29T14:58:25Z engblom: I guess I am a bit spoiled by lein for clojure...
2021-04-29T14:58:33Z beach: You need a my-project.asd file and packages.lisp file.  The only thing that you can create by default is the name of the project in the ASDF file, the name of the package in the packages.lisp file, and a singe line in the ASDF file containing (:file "packages").
2021-04-29T14:58:34Z engblom: vms14: Yes, I might do that
2021-04-29T14:58:38Z vms14: you could try to reproduce that behavior
2021-04-29T14:58:44Z beach: It take literally a minute to do.
2021-04-29T14:59:20Z vms14: the nice thing of trying other stuff is that you learn new concepts and can apply them later
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2021-04-29T14:59:46Z phoe: engblom: I use quickproject
2021-04-29T15:00:16Z phoe: (quickproject:make-project #p"~/Projects/Lisp/foo") and then I modify everything else by hand
2021-04-29T15:01:38Z engblom: Yes. I with Clojure I just do "lein new whatever-name" for creating a libary skeleton and "lein new app" for making something that will even have a main function and everything ready for compiling something I can run. Lein even takes care of uploading the library to clojars so other can depend on it (in a similar way as with quicklisp).
2021-04-29T15:03:15Z vms14: engblom: taking lein as a reference, you could create a nice project builder that would be useful for other lispers
2021-04-29T15:03:34Z phoe: IIRC then some roswell people have tried to make something like this
2021-04-29T15:03:41Z phoe: I don't know how well they've succeeded though
2021-04-29T15:04:17Z vms14: I suppose the main goal of a project builder is just to create boilerplate
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2021-04-29T15:10:03Z engblom: phoe: Right now I am doing some coding for my workplace and I picked to write it in lisp because I want to learn lisp. Previously I have been coding Clojure, but my motivation for switching from Clojure to Lisp is that programs written in Clojure are very slow to start up on Raspberry Pi. Rosewell will not work at all on Raspberry Pi.
2021-04-29T15:13:25Z phoe: yes, I see
2021-04-29T15:13:43Z pyc: engblom: Are you your own boss at your workplace? or are you working for an employer? curious how you gained the consensus to write your projects in Common Lisp.
2021-04-29T15:17:47Z jmercouris: there is not a lot of boiler plate in Lisp, no need to have a project builder beyond the scope of quickproject
2021-04-29T15:17:53Z jmercouris: in my opinion, of course
2021-04-29T15:18:41Z phoe: beach: https://gist.github.com/phoe/c48b34275cf40bece9dbc5e555555214
2021-04-29T15:18:46Z engblom: pyc: No, I am not my own boss. This project is a smaller side project as I am not working as a developer.
2021-04-29T15:18:59Z phoe: this is a quickly hacked article, I will finish it later today - I need to run and do ELS stuff now
2021-04-29T15:19:18Z phoe: please review and leave your remarks here or on github (even if you're not beach)
2021-04-29T15:19:32Z vms14: jmercouris: I guess the real reason we don't need boilerplate is the lack of libraries
2021-04-29T15:19:41Z jmercouris: how did you come to that conclusion?
2021-04-29T15:19:45Z vms14: once you use a library you need to add some init code or alike
2021-04-29T15:19:52Z jmercouris: what?
2021-04-29T15:19:57Z jmercouris: That is not my experience at all
2021-04-29T15:20:04Z vms14: :O
2021-04-29T15:20:09Z beach: phoe: Common Lisp is definitely call-by-value.
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2021-04-29T15:20:37Z vms14: for example opengl libraries
2021-04-29T15:20:38Z phoe: beach: yes, and I mention that in the chapter while explaining why I coin a different name for that term
2021-04-29T15:21:02Z beach: phoe: Call-by-value means that the arguments to a function are evaluated before passed to the function.  Nothing else.  You can't claim Common Lisp is doing something else.
2021-04-29T15:21:03Z phoe: (mostly because the term is already abused by C++ which implies copying, and we don't do visible copying in CL)
2021-04-29T15:21:30Z phoe: beach: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evaluation_strategy#Implicit_limitations
2021-04-29T15:22:18Z beach: I give up.  Do what you want.
2021-04-29T15:22:57Z phoe: I mean, I don't know how to solve the problem where I call C++ call-by-value and Lisp call-by-value and then they do different things
2021-04-29T15:23:13Z beach: I think it is a huge mistake to cater to people who don't respect terminology that has been standard for 6 decades.
2021-04-29T15:23:31Z beach: The do exactly the same things.
2021-04-29T15:23:37Z phoe: I think it's a huge mistake to not cater to people who are in the huge majority and would simply like to understand how CL is different from C++
2021-04-29T15:23:43Z beach: They both evaluate the argument before passing it to the function.
2021-04-29T15:23:58Z phoe: yes, and then mutating that argument gives different results
2021-04-29T15:24:14Z phoe: that's not exactly the same thing
2021-04-29T15:24:14Z beach: So we bend over and discard 6 decades of terminology for these people?
2021-04-29T15:24:16Z beach: Fine.
2021-04-29T15:24:48Z Odin-: Well, at the time they discarded it, it had only been standard for a decade or so.
2021-04-29T15:24:50Z beach: call-by-value has absolutely no other meaning than the fact that arguments are evaluated before the function is called
2021-04-29T15:25:01Z phoe: yes, we do, a huge chunk of the programming world has already partially done that to the point where even Wikipedia mentions that the term is ambiguous
2021-04-29T15:25:05Z phoe: that's my opinion
2021-04-29T15:25:15Z vms14: I'll never understand why people fights just because terminology
2021-04-29T15:25:20Z beach: Fine.  I'll go fix dinner instead.
2021-04-29T15:25:26Z phoe sigh
2021-04-29T15:25:30Z phoe: bon appetit
2021-04-29T15:25:50Z beach: vms14: Because otherwise there are interminable debates about the implications.
2021-04-29T15:25:53Z phoe: vms14: mostly because inter-human communication is a hard problem that is never solved and is never going to be fully solved
2021-04-29T15:26:03Z vms14: it's just the "I have the reason in this term" fight
2021-04-29T15:26:04Z phoe: ;; unless we go extinct
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2021-04-29T15:26:48Z Odin-: phoe: He does have a point in that it's worth noting that the C(++) understanding is not by any means complete.
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2021-04-29T15:27:17Z phoe: vms14: we have terms like foo that we first need to define and second need to redefine when there's other people who have their own definitions of foo
2021-04-29T15:27:30Z beach: I guess we can also say that Common Lisp is interpreted, because that's what the interaction means, right?
2021-04-29T15:27:31Z phoe: Odin-: I think I mention that in the first C++ part
2021-04-29T15:28:44Z phoe: but, hmmm
2021-04-29T15:28:58Z phoe: I wonder if I can find a name that works better
2021-04-29T15:30:13Z phoe: OK, updated https://gist.github.com/phoe/c48b34275cf40bece9dbc5e555555214 - should be a bit better now
2021-04-29T15:31:44Z Odin-: phoe: I suspect that part of the problem is that people now think of C as a low level language.
2021-04-29T15:32:16Z phoe: Odin-: huh? what does it have to do with parameter evaluation?
2021-04-29T15:33:14Z pjb: Actually lisp is also a low level language.  If you remove all the macros, and use only special operators and functions…  And macros, are just add-on in the standard library (CL package), or from other libraries…
2021-04-29T15:34:36Z pjb: try to use tagbody and things like  (rplaca k a)  vs (setf (car k) a)  (ie no setf -> setq), and soon it'll feel like programming in assembler.
2021-04-29T15:34:52Z Odin-: phoe: If you think the C compiler and runtime libraries aren't doing fancy stuff for you, it becomes easy to assume that the way that system works is how things are by default and everything that works differently is doing extra work.
2021-04-29T15:35:20Z pjb: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16471708
2021-04-29T15:35:23Z Odin-: pjb: You did notice that I implied that the idea that C is low-level is _wrong_, no?
2021-04-29T15:36:02Z pjb: Odin-: Yes. I give you arguments.
2021-04-29T15:36:26Z vms14: there  will always be different opinions
2021-04-29T15:36:36Z vms14: there is people who likes java, for example
2021-04-29T15:36:42Z pjb: Odin-: now you can make a comparison of the low-levelness of C and Common Lisp, (and perhaps other languages), and come to the conclusion that it's a matter of libraries and of point-of-view, and that it doesn't mean much.
2021-04-29T15:36:52Z vms14: I cannot understand why, but they cannot understand why I like lisp
2021-04-29T15:37:18Z vms14: could try to explain why, and they could try to explain too, but no one will understand anyway
2021-04-29T15:37:21Z pjb: As for the bits, DPB and LDP are way lower level  than << >> | ^ ~.
2021-04-29T15:38:13Z pjb: or more precisely, they are better operators to work on bits than what C proposes.
2021-04-29T15:38:43Z vms14: and everything is subjective
2021-04-29T15:38:58Z vms14: for example java is better is you want to find a job quickly
2021-04-29T15:39:10Z vms14: even if you will suffer every day
2021-04-29T15:39:47Z nij: vms14 yes you're right and the only thing we can do is to make lisp stronger
2021-04-29T15:40:05Z nij: or go make some money and fund lisp when you are successful
2021-04-29T15:40:24Z vms14: nij: I'd love if lisp had the same power in market as java does
2021-04-29T15:40:30Z Odin-: pjb: So you'd prefer that I say "well, Lisp is low-level too" above "C isn't low-level"?
2021-04-29T15:40:32Z vms14: and cannot even understand why not
2021-04-29T15:40:34Z pjb: http://franz.com/success
2021-04-29T15:41:20Z vms14: just imagine lisp courses, and enterprises hiring junior lisp devs
2021-04-29T15:41:22Z phoe: Odin-: they are doing fancy stuff under the hood, yes - but not in case of passing parameters
2021-04-29T15:41:47Z pjb: Odin-: well, forget about low-level.  We can agree that C can be used more easily to write code for micro-controllers than lisp. There's even a C substandard for that: n1169
2021-04-29T15:42:26Z pjb: Odin-: coding for microcontroller in CL would involve, for the most practical way, writing a code generator and a compiler of a subset of lisp, like GOAL.
2021-04-29T15:42:34Z Odin-: pjb: You have to cut less out of C than Common Lisp, certainly.
2021-04-29T15:42:57Z jmercouris: how to get the ASDF version of library in a compiled image? possible?
2021-04-29T15:43:03Z jmercouris: or do we need the original ASD?
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2021-04-29T15:43:18Z Odin-: But that's at least in part because Common Lisp is very comprehensive.
2021-04-29T15:43:34Z jmercouris: that is, how to get the :version from a defsystem
2021-04-29T15:43:34Z pjb: Odin-: but granted it's not strictly sensu a property of the language, more of the tools and the ecosystems.  But they come with the language too, in part.
2021-04-29T15:43:39Z nij: vms14: someone may not like the answer but i think this is very true: http://www.winestockwebdesign.com/Essays/Lisp_Curse.html
2021-04-29T15:44:18Z pjb: jmercouris: perhaps: asdf/system:system-version
2021-04-29T15:44:26Z nij: Imagine you have 20 people in your group, and you are the manager. Now imagine there are 40 groups like this in a team.
2021-04-29T15:44:33Z jmercouris: right, but will that work without being able to find-system?
2021-04-29T15:44:39Z jmercouris: (asdf:system-version (asdf:find-system :cl-cffi-gtk))
2021-04-29T15:44:45Z jmercouris: I might as well just try it
2021-04-29T15:44:47Z nij: Too much freedom is good potentially, but it also allows people to do bad things.
2021-04-29T15:44:59Z pjb: (asdf/system:system-version (asdf:find-system :alexandria)) #| --> "1.0.1" |#
2021-04-29T15:45:01Z pjb: works for me.
2021-04-29T15:45:14Z jmercouris: I was asking about in a compiled SBCL image
2021-04-29T15:45:17Z pjb: jmercouris: (apropos "VERSION" "ASDF") is what I used.
2021-04-29T15:45:17Z jmercouris: but yes, works there too
2021-04-29T15:45:21Z nij: So while lisp is better in theory, it might not be better in the eye of a project manager.
2021-04-29T15:45:22Z jmercouris: oh I see
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2021-04-29T15:45:29Z jackdaniel: nij: people often try to blame the tool when they are unable to build the thing
2021-04-29T15:45:38Z nij: jackdaniel: i understand
2021-04-29T15:45:56Z jackdaniel: historical data seems to indicate, that lisp may be very succesful in a corporate setting
2021-04-29T15:45:59Z jackdaniel: so there you have it
2021-04-29T15:45:59Z Odin-: phoe: So what's the copying?
2021-04-29T15:46:08Z pjb: nij: a project manager can easily manage the freedom of CL programmers, by defining packages to be used and forbidding other packages; and he could write the tools to check his rules trivially.
2021-04-29T15:46:10Z nij: jackdaniel: you got the point too
2021-04-29T15:46:35Z pjb: This seems to be also a strong ethos of Haskell, controlling the programmers…
2021-04-29T15:46:43Z pjb: pfft!
2021-04-29T15:46:53Z nij: pjb: but they might find it hard to hire good enough programmers to write in lisps
2021-04-29T15:47:00Z phoe: Odin-: in case of C, that's allocating a proper sizeof of stack memory and memcpying
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2021-04-29T15:47:10Z phoe: sans any optimizations that might happen, of course
2021-04-29T15:47:16Z pjb: nij: IME, all the educated programmers have learned scheme at the university…
2021-04-29T15:47:21Z jackdaniel: nij: chicken and egg problem - nothing to do with the language. yet, there are capable cl programmers on the market
2021-04-29T15:47:24Z pjb: nij: ie. they know lisp as much as anything else.
2021-04-29T15:47:32Z jackdaniel gets back to work
2021-04-29T15:48:12Z loli: nij types might offset that effect even more. From what I understand the LISP machine had types everywhere
2021-04-29T15:48:14Z Odin-: phoe: Which is the compiler arranging for something to be done in order to keep the semantics.
2021-04-29T15:48:20Z loli: that seems to enforce more consistent interfaces among programs
2021-04-29T15:48:30Z phoe: Odin-: yes, it's work that needs to be done by the compiler
2021-04-29T15:49:13Z nij: I agree. I agree. I still believe there's some truth in Lisp Curse. But most likely, it might just because Lisp is not lucky enough.
2021-04-29T15:49:26Z Odin-: phoe: Which is my point - a lot of people seem to be under the impression that C's semantics come about without that.
2021-04-29T15:49:46Z phoe: Odin-: oh! I think I understand you better now
2021-04-29T15:50:03Z loli: Might be the kind of people that are attracted to lisp. http://metamodular.com/Essays/psychology.html might help explain why?
2021-04-29T15:50:05Z phoe: but before I forget - is the stuff at https://gist.github.com/phoe/c48b34275cf40bece9dbc5e555555214 better now with regard to terminology?
2021-04-29T15:50:06Z Nilby: I was an impossible to control programmer before I used Lisp. Lisp just removes artificial barriers.
2021-04-29T15:50:38Z loli: I think the image system of CL in particular can offer a lot of great documentation and asssitant tools that should make corporate programming a lot easier
2021-04-29T15:51:06Z nij: Nilby: ! Could you share your story?
2021-04-29T15:54:10Z pjb: phoe: I would start with a paragraph or two about the fundamental difference: lisp is object/value based, while C/C++ are varable/type based.
2021-04-29T15:54:12Z nij: Btw, I'm reading LOL, and it says alambda isn't hygienic. I wonder if there's a hygienic version of it?
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2021-04-29T15:55:06Z Odin-: phoe: I don't have an issue with it. I'd probably substitute 'The proper but unsatisfying answer' with something like 'In those terms, the somewhat unsatisfying answer'.
2021-04-29T15:55:34Z phoe: pjb: will do
2021-04-29T15:55:37Z phoe: Odin-: OK, will fix
2021-04-29T15:55:44Z Nilby: nij: My story to far too lengthy, melodramatic, and not yet over. Perhaps I'll write my memoir when I can no longer write code, but more likely I'll die at a Lisp REPL.
2021-04-29T15:55:55Z pjb: phoe: 42 in lisp is an object; you can have references to it; variables don't store this object, but keep a reference to it.  On the other hand, in C/C++, 42 only represent various bit patterns that can be stored in variables of different types, and that are interpreted, assuming those types to correspond to integer 42 or the floating point 42.0.
2021-04-29T15:56:00Z Odin-: phoe: Basically, allowing that we _are_ discussing it on C++'s terms while not conceding that those are necessarily correct.
2021-04-29T15:56:10Z phoe: Odin-: yes, I understand now
2021-04-29T15:57:16Z pjb: phoe: declaring types in lisp doesn't declare the type of variables or slots, but the types of the objects that are bound to those variables or slots, and without a type declaration variables can hold objects of any lisp type; those lisp types are attached to the object, not the variables or slot that can refer them.
2021-04-29T15:57:57Z pjb: This is what gives the security in lisp: you cannot  misinterpret bit patterns, or subvert them.
2021-04-29T15:58:51Z pjb: In the worst situation, in lisp, if you removed all the program and therefore all the variables, you'd be left with a heap, that you could scan to  retrieve all the live objects and their data!
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2021-04-29T15:59:39Z Odin-: In theory, numbers aren't that different from keywords.
2021-04-29T15:59:55Z Odin-: The underlying hardware just usually has more specific support for particular operations on them.
2021-04-29T15:59:56Z pjb: The most you could do with a C heap, is to know the memory blocks allocated, but without the program and the typed variables, you couldn't know what type of object they represent (only guesses).
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2021-04-29T16:04:32Z vms14: cannot really understand why you are comparing cl with c
2021-04-29T16:04:43Z vms14: I suppose you guys are bored xD
2021-04-29T16:05:30Z vms14: and if you want to compare them, the answer is easy: Lisp is better
2021-04-29T16:05:42Z vms14: but then you need ffi
2021-04-29T16:05:50Z Odin-: Because C has become the standard with which most programmers are familiar.
2021-04-29T16:05:51Z Nilby: I think C is the language that gives lispers the most trouble, because it dictates how we have to interface with things outside Lisp.
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2021-04-29T16:08:08Z Nilby: If C system calls would just use take Lisp objects...
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2021-04-29T16:09:02Z Odin-: Nilby: Curiously, at the level being discussed here, it's not even that.
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2021-04-29T16:10:06Z Odin-: Specifically, C is _specifically_ designed so that it doesn't have to deal with these issues at runtime. At all.
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2021-04-29T16:11:25Z Odin-: (Which is one of the reasons it's much easier to shoot yourself in the foot using C than many other languages.)
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2021-04-29T16:12:58Z Nilby: Except for things like the symbol garbage collection/tracing in dynamic linkers, runtime type information in C++,, etc.
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2021-04-29T16:13:10Z Nilby: But yes.
2021-04-29T16:13:34Z Odin-: C++ isn't C, and dynamic linkers are a whole another can of worms. :)
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2021-04-29T16:16:03Z aeth: You can actually do C-like abuse of the type system. You just have to pretend that you're talking to C when you're not, and use CFFI. https://gitlab.com/-/snippets/1830092
2021-04-29T16:16:24Z aeth: Not to mention that declarations are UB and SBCL with (safety 0) probably also permits such things instead of checking (but the solution is to never (safety 0)).
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2021-04-29T16:19:01Z Nilby: Nice. I've see such code in implementations that can assume to know the float format too.
2021-04-29T16:19:23Z DGASAU: Nilby: while I could agree that C presents not the best IDL conventions, other languages provide worse IDL conventions.
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2021-04-29T16:20:49Z Nilby: DGASAU: I agree. Name mangling comes to mind. And maybe JNI?
2021-04-29T16:21:11Z DGASAU: JNI is long dead already.
2021-04-29T16:21:59Z DGASAU: In my experience, interfacing between any two different paradigms is possible only through something very reminiscent of C.
2021-04-29T16:23:26Z DGASAU: I had experience: CL <-> Python, Scheme <-> C, SML <-> C++ and C, Prolog <-> Java.
2021-04-29T16:23:42Z Odin-: There are plenty of things to complain about with C; the calling conventions are for the most part not near the top of that list.
2021-04-29T16:24:06Z Nilby: Oooh, Prolog to Java is a fun rare one. :)
2021-04-29T16:24:55Z DGASAU: The best alternative approach I have seen in papers is "S-net".
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2021-04-29T16:26:22Z DGASAU: All the rest usually boils down to "lets' launch XML-RPC/JSON-RPC/some-other-RPC servers and clients, perhaps bidirectional and asynchronous."
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2021-04-29T16:27:22Z DGASAU: Or... Linda.
2021-04-29T16:27:28Z Nilby: Yes, that's seems like the modern way. Ubiquitous heavy and slow.
2021-04-29T16:27:33Z DGASAU: Which again is kinda reminiscent of C.
2021-04-29T16:28:24Z Nilby: But certainly easier to cross adapt.
2021-04-29T16:29:07Z DGASAU: If you wish to experience what it feels, I suggest that you write something trivial on top of libpq.
2021-04-29T16:29:44Z DGASAU: You _can_ write C procedures that receive and produce Lisp objects.
2021-04-29T16:30:03Z DGASAU: But it is no fun at all.
2021-04-29T16:30:40Z DGASAU: (Right, if you wish, you can add C <-> SQL to the list above.)
2021-04-29T16:31:00Z shka_: hi all
2021-04-29T16:31:26Z shka_: i am seeing something unexpected with the combination of the dexador and alexandria:copy-stream
2021-04-29T16:31:33Z Nilby: Right. The problem actually exists on the O/S level. e.g /proc and BSD sysctl.
2021-04-29T16:31:47Z shka_: i am downloading some files from the https://hltv.org
2021-04-29T16:32:05Z shka_: with dexador, and i want stream in response
2021-04-29T16:32:48Z shka_: and then i simply use alexandria:with-output-to-file and alexandria:copy-stream to save the download into a file
2021-04-29T16:32:55Z shka_: and it works ALMOST fine
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2021-04-29T16:33:33Z DGASAU: Nilby: so far, the best approach in my opinion is proper IDL a la S-net, i.e. with non-recursive structures.
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2021-04-29T16:33:59Z shka_: but sometimes, and this seems to happen just with the hltv, copy-stream for some reason blocks on what seems to be finish-output
2021-04-29T16:34:38Z Nilby: DGASAU: S-net sounds familiar, but I can't remember. Do you have a link for it?
2021-04-29T16:34:50Z DGASAU: Nilby: no, unfortunately not.
2021-04-29T16:34:54Z shka_: is that at all explainable?
2021-04-29T16:35:18Z DGASAU: Nilby: try searching smth like "s-net coordination language".
2021-04-29T16:36:01Z DGASAU: Nilby: if you don't find it, tell me, and I'll probably find reference in some time.
2021-04-29T16:37:18Z DGASAU: Nilby: actually, it comes up on top in search output. Only it seems more elaborate than what I remember from the past.
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2021-04-29T16:39:57Z Nilby: DGASAU: Thanks. I think I found it. Seems an interesting read.
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2021-04-29T16:42:44Z nij: Does anyone happen to know if ambrevar will release the code of his "lisp repl shell"? https://ambrevar.xyz/lisp-repl-shell/index.html
2021-04-29T16:43:01Z nij: It seems that lots of magics are going on.. I wish I can play with it directly.
2021-04-29T16:44:57Z shka_: i will try replace dexador with drakma
2021-04-29T16:45:07Z shka_: maybe there is some weird edge case here
2021-04-29T16:45:21Z shka_: because i have no idea why this happens with just this one server
2021-04-29T16:45:34Z Nilby: nij: Some the magic is at https://gitlab.com/ambrevar , but much of it is emacs/sly customization.
2021-04-29T16:46:16Z Nilby: shka_: I don't really know, but some servers keep the socket open, after trasmitting.
2021-04-29T16:46:20Z nij: Nilby: yeah.. I'm wondering if he will release his customization
2021-04-29T16:48:04Z Nilby: nij: There's quite a lot of it in dotfiles and fof, but it's difficult to use other people dotfiles like that.
2021-04-29T16:48:27Z shka_: Nilby: hmmm, this sound unusual
2021-04-29T16:48:50Z shka_: let's see if this will be the same with drakma
2021-04-29T16:49:18Z shka_: honestly, i use dexador only because i like API better
2021-04-29T16:49:22Z loli: a custom lisp shell over unix would be great
2021-04-29T16:49:31Z shka_: and honestly, this is kinda stupid reason to use it
2021-04-29T16:50:09Z nij: loli: did you read that post :)
2021-04-29T16:50:25Z nij: the link that i gave above ^
2021-04-29T16:50:26Z shka_: loli: yeah, that's what lisp-repl-shell is actually
2021-04-29T16:50:37Z loli: I was skimming through it looking for examples
2021-04-29T16:50:43Z shka_: i tried to use it
2021-04-29T16:50:46Z loli: the old lisp machines used to auto insert the first () bracket
2021-04-29T16:51:05Z shka_: it is actually a good effort, but way to easy to land into the debugger
2021-04-29T16:51:25Z shka_: personally, i think that emacs eshell is not even all that stupid
2021-04-29T16:51:37Z shka_: not exactly lisp repl like one would want
2021-04-29T16:51:44Z shka_: but pretty darn useful
2021-04-29T16:52:26Z nij: shka_ I've never been able to tap into the cleverness of eshell..
2021-04-29T16:52:37Z nij: would you share why you find it useful?
2021-04-29T16:53:17Z Nilby has been using a lisp shell for >10 years.
2021-04-29T16:54:27Z nij: completely? you never found a need to go back to a ordinary shell? Nilby
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2021-04-29T16:54:51Z Nilby: No
2021-04-29T16:55:28Z loli: can you call out to shell utilities easily? That seems to be the main issue
2021-04-29T16:55:29Z Nilby: I can never go back now
2021-04-29T16:55:33Z nij: How do you `git commit` for example?
2021-04-29T16:55:38Z Nilby: yerp
2021-04-29T16:56:14Z Nilby: you "git commit" by "git commit"
2021-04-29T16:56:26Z Nilby: or (git commit)
2021-04-29T16:56:28Z nij: You just type "git commit" in the repl?
2021-04-29T16:56:29Z Nilby: or whatever
2021-04-29T16:56:30Z loli: I've found with inferior-shell I really like making quick scripts in CL, though the loading of CL as a standalone script is always somehwat painful if you don't ros it up
2021-04-29T16:56:42Z loli: yeah that's nice, I'm guessing you have undefined functions just search the bash path?
2021-04-29T16:56:52Z Nilby: i don't because I use a git tui
2021-04-29T16:56:54Z loli: and can mix and match freely like inferior, shell without any back quoting?
2021-04-29T16:57:06Z Nilby: so I just type 'c'
2021-04-29T16:57:16Z Nilby: or #\c rather
2021-04-29T16:57:47Z nij: I'm eager to know how I get started with lisp shell......
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2021-04-29T16:59:17Z shka_: nij: well, neither did I but the ability to pipe into emacs buffers? legit feature
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2021-04-29T17:00:10Z Nilby: but you can pipe into emacs buffers from any shell
2021-04-29T17:00:22Z nij: Yeah..
2021-04-29T17:01:42Z shka_: huh?
2021-04-29T17:01:44Z shka_: you can?
2021-04-29T17:01:46Z shka_: how?
2021-04-29T17:02:12Z nij: You just open a shell in an emacs buffer!
2021-04-29T17:02:20Z nij: By using vterm or term.
2021-04-29T17:03:15Z shka_: eh, ok
2021-04-29T17:04:15Z shka_: eshell is tramp aware, that's something as well, right?
2021-04-29T17:04:22Z loli: the last feature you'd need to have a nicely working lisp shell on unix, is the ability to smoothly run stuff like ncurses windows, which it seems emacs currently can't easily
2021-04-29T17:04:27Z loli: at least I've had issues in the past
2021-04-29T17:04:55Z nij: shka_ i'm not familiar with tramp
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2021-04-29T17:05:35Z nij: loli: yeah i always shy off when it comes to that, or things like ranger
2021-04-29T17:05:58Z Nilby: You have to run it outside emacs to do ncurses, or use the thing that links a real terminal library into emacs.
2021-04-29T17:07:28Z Nilby: I use it just in a terminal
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2021-04-29T17:08:50Z loli: I tend not to use a base terminal too much outside of n-curses programs, and ranger
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2021-04-29T17:09:13Z loli: I've found for scripting that sometimes I have very short bash scripts, due to how annoying SBCL treats libraries when in shell mode
2021-04-29T17:09:44Z shka_: ok, btw, it seems that drakma does not suffer from the same issue
2021-04-29T17:10:11Z nij: loli:  what's the problem for sbcl in shell mode?
2021-04-29T17:10:27Z loli: no packages get loaded, so if you use inferior-shell like I do for scripting
2021-04-29T17:10:35Z loli: you have to find a kludge around it, or make a ros program
2021-04-29T17:10:39Z Nilby: shka_: Good to know. but is it a bug or a feature to keep the socket open?
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2021-04-29T17:11:37Z loli: so I have to do weird loading, that is often more annoying to figure out than otherwise
2021-04-29T17:11:50Z shka_: Nilby: i don't know, i suspect that this is somehow related to the dexador using connection pool but i am to tired to debug this right now
2021-04-29T17:11:51Z nij: You call `$ sbcl` in shell?
2021-04-29T17:11:58Z nij: Why not to use slime/sly?
2021-04-29T17:12:12Z loli: exec ros -Q -- $0 "$@", or using sbcl --script or something
2021-04-29T17:12:14Z Nilby: sbcl is the shell, then you can run everything
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2021-04-29T17:50:58Z jcowan: Call by identity is good because it matches with the guarantee of putting something into a slot or variable: what comes out is eql to what went in.
2021-04-29T17:51:58Z jcowan: extending "slots" to include the car and cdr of a pair, the elements of an array, etc.
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2021-04-29T17:53:43Z Josh_2: anyone had an issue with emacs where it occasionally pops up saying '<keypress> is not a valid command' meaning I have to hit the key twice? Very annoying
2021-04-29T17:53:49Z Josh_2: It only happens when I'm using Sly
2021-04-29T17:54:09Z Josh_2: Says that in the minibuffer
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2021-04-29T18:00:43Z jcowan: pbaille: ##lisp is suitable for discussing all Lisps:  CL, Scheme, Picolisp, you name it.  It's also about the only channel where comparisons between different Lisps fits in.
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2021-04-29T18:23:05Z gigamonkey: h
2021-04-29T18:23:32Z gigamonkey: erp. wrong buffer.
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2021-04-29T19:21:52Z theseb: Compilers in general strip the original high level source to an intermediate representation before barfing out assembly.   Well since Lisp is a stripped down syntax that might be used for this intermediate representation, isn't it (sort of) true that compilers basically roughly just convert high level source to a lisp like lang and then implement that lisp source in assembly?
2021-04-29T19:22:32Z theseb: By lisp i mean a TINY subset of common lisp
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2021-04-29T19:23:12Z gigamonkey: Insofar as s-exps are a good way to represent ASTs and most compilers generate ASTs and then go from there, yes.
2021-04-29T19:23:36Z gigamonkey: For some very small value of "Lisp like".
2021-04-29T19:24:08Z theseb: thanks!
2021-04-29T19:24:20Z theseb: gigamonkey: lisp is helping me understand and implement a basic compiler
2021-04-29T19:24:27Z theseb: another feel good lisp story added to the world
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2021-04-29T19:25:14Z gigamonkey: awesome!
2021-04-29T19:26:07Z theseb: gigamonkey: to run lisp you need an evaluator...so i presume when people say they "compiled a program"...the executable literally has to implement an evaluation engine in assembly EVERY time?
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2021-04-29T19:28:07Z gigamonkey: Not quite.
2021-04-29T19:28:19Z gigamonkey: I mean, yes, EVAL is in there somewhere so you do need an evaluator.
2021-04-29T19:29:11Z gigamonkey: But if you take EVAL out of the language it doesn't actually change much and then you can compile a Lisp program down to assembly with no more ability to evaluate arbitrary Lisp.
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2021-04-29T19:40:51Z phoe: OK, I think I got it decently
2021-04-29T19:40:58Z phoe: https://gist.github.com/phoe/c48b34275cf40bece9dbc5e555555214
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2021-04-29T19:41:16Z phoe: beach`: I think I fixed everything that I needed, please take another look
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2021-04-29T19:50:08Z Odin-: theseb: Well, you can think of the underlying processor's instruction set as the evaluation engine.
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2021-04-29T19:50:45Z theseb: Odin-: true
2021-04-29T19:52:04Z Odin-: phoe: First paragraph has a timestamp and other remnants from IRC. :p
2021-04-29T19:52:14Z phoe: Odin-: yes, that's the WIP that I still need to fix
2021-04-29T19:52:16Z Odin-: ... wait, second. I can't count.
2021-04-29T19:52:31Z Odin-: Just making sure you were aware of it.
2021-04-29T19:52:48Z phoe: and I actually wonder if I want to talk about this in the introduction
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2021-04-29T19:53:13Z phoe: the static/dynamic typing debate and such
2021-04-29T19:53:31Z phoe: it's sorta tangential to the meat of the issue - how to pass parameters, what's copied, how to assign stuff
2021-04-29T19:53:47Z Odin-: Probably fits better as part of the specifics.
2021-04-29T19:53:51Z Lycurgus: don't forget the "dynamic programming" equivocation
2021-04-29T19:53:57Z phoe: Odin-: or as a coda
2021-04-29T19:54:00Z phoe: Lycurgus: oh no
2021-04-29T19:54:13Z Odin-: phoe: Or that.
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2021-04-29T19:59:04Z phoe: edited again
2021-04-29T19:59:12Z phoe: moved the paragraph in question to the end
2021-04-29T19:59:31Z phoe: please boop me if I forgot to thank someone
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2021-04-29T20:23:10Z Bike: i would add an "in general" to "this involves allocating new memory" etc
2021-04-29T20:23:17Z Bike: it doesn't always touch memory
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2021-04-29T20:24:38Z Bike: i might also mention that the only way to detect copying is eq and that it's otherwise an implementation detail
2021-04-29T20:24:54Z Bike: honestly i might not mention immediates at all
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2021-04-29T20:29:28Z phoe: Bike: not mention immediates, as in?
2021-04-29T20:29:43Z phoe: the only instance of the word is in the tl;dr section
2021-04-29T20:29:47Z Bike: don't talk about lisp copying
2021-04-29T20:29:51Z phoe: oh
2021-04-29T20:30:22Z phoe: I kinda feel compelled to, because C++ people are gonna ask "what is copied then, because I really want to mutate this number like I can do in C"
2021-04-29T20:31:00Z phoe: though that is actually the fact that numbers are immutable in CL
2021-04-29T20:31:16Z phoe: their places might be mutable, if anything
2021-04-29T20:31:19Z phoe thinks
2021-04-29T20:31:41Z phoe: I mean, I talk about C/C++ copying; talking about Lisp copying makes sense to me
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2021-04-29T20:33:52Z moon-child: I don't think that, in a general sense, c++ makes sense to anyone
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2021-04-29T20:36:46Z Bike: i mean,  you could mention it as an afterthought or something
2021-04-29T20:36:59Z Bike: it's just not as an important concept in lisp as it is in c
2021-04-29T20:37:18Z Lycurgus: moon-child, you had to be there
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2021-04-29T20:39:30Z ordoflammae: phoe: it seems like, if you're going to program lisp, you shouldn't want to "mutate" a number location, since that kinda' goes against the whole ideal of functional programming.
2021-04-29T20:39:55Z Bike: you can't mutate numbers in C either. phoe was probably joking
2021-04-29T20:40:28Z ordoflammae: Bike: It seemed like phoe was talking about mutating what number a particular variable is referencing without using that variable (pointers, etc.)
2021-04-29T20:40:54Z ordoflammae: I mean, yeah, you can't actually mutate the actual number (whatever that might mean), but you can mutate a particular address location.
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2021-04-29T20:41:34Z ordoflammae: But you really oughtn't be doing that with lisp, you're kind of running against the grain of the entire language.
2021-04-29T20:41:58Z ordoflammae: It's just a different language paradigm.
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2021-04-29T20:43:15Z nij: One thing about CLIM is that.. the interface it produces is not emacs, so all good bindings aren't usable there. Is there a way to make emacs more "CLIM-like"? If so, what kind of work should be done?
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2021-04-29T20:45:12Z Bike: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Second-Climacs nij
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2021-04-29T20:53:38Z nij: Bike: is this an attempt to make an editor in which the experience is close to a lisp machine?
2021-04-29T20:53:42Z nij is checking its doc..
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2021-04-29T20:54:48Z nij cails to understand..
2021-04-29T20:54:53Z nij: s/cails/fails
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2021-04-29T21:07:02Z Bike: climacs is an emacs-like editor written in clim.
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2021-04-29T21:10:45Z jcowan: gigamonkey: The Chez Scheme compiler works exactly thereseb described: each pass converts Scheme to simpler Scheme, until what's left is an S-expression representation of machine language.  But every stage can be run using the Chez interpreter and produces the correct result.  SO if a stage is bad, you can just leave it out until you fix it.
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2021-04-29T21:12:14Z phoe: yes, I was joking
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2021-04-29T21:13:11Z phoe: Bike: fixed it up, moved the whole paragraph into an appendix
2021-04-29T21:13:19Z jackdaniel: slime incorporated some clim functionalities
2021-04-29T21:13:38Z jackdaniel: most notably presentations - note that when in the repl you return an unreadable object, you still can inspect it
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2021-04-29T21:19:02Z CL-ASHOK: Does anybody know the origin of "Made with Secret Alien Technology"
2021-04-29T21:19:07Z CL-ASHOK: was it Land of Lisp?
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2021-04-29T21:41:57Z loli: how does CL deftype work with typep?
2021-04-29T21:42:12Z loli: I'm trying to make (deftype list-of (type) ...)
2021-04-29T21:42:24Z Bike: deftype is essentially a macro system
2021-04-29T21:42:46Z Bike: when typep (or whatever) sees a type specifier defined by deftype, it uses the macro-function deftype defines to expand into a new type specifier to work with
2021-04-29T21:43:00Z Bike: as such, recursive definitions do not work, because they will be expanded ad nauseum
2021-04-29T21:43:25Z loli: I see
2021-04-29T21:43:31Z loli: though in this case it's simple
2021-04-29T21:43:39Z loli: I just want to have a generic over a non recursive type
2021-04-29T21:43:51Z loli: say we have a list with some sort of type inside of it
2021-04-29T21:43:53Z Bike: a generic function?
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2021-04-29T21:44:11Z mfiano: You'll have to use SATISFIES and check the contents at runtime
2021-04-29T21:44:15Z Bike: those work with classes, not types.
2021-04-29T21:44:15Z loli: yes
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2021-04-29T21:45:39Z kagevf: engblom: you can use invert-face RET default to toggle between light and dark mode in emacs
2021-04-29T21:46:13Z loli: well you can have some type declarations that are second order
2021-04-29T21:46:22Z loli: for example https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node51.html they give square-matrix
2021-04-29T21:46:34Z loli: however I'm unsure of how to ask if something satisfies such a declaration
2021-04-29T21:46:41Z loli: it's obvious with say "(deftype list-of-strings () `(satisfies list-of-strings-p))"
2021-04-29T21:46:55Z loli: (typep '("a") 'list-of-strings) => t
2021-04-29T21:47:07Z mfiano: Why do you need such a type?
2021-04-29T21:47:25Z loli: to give nicer doc specs, because having a function from say int to list isn't helpful
2021-04-29T21:48:07Z loli: (declaim (ftype (function (context fset:map file-info-extended) list) f))
2021-04-29T21:48:16Z loli: for example in this, I know I gewt a list back, but a list of what?
2021-04-29T21:48:46Z loli: Ideally I can test my list-of on certain types like I have a list of ints and I can typep it
2021-04-29T21:48:50Z Bike: all of the expansions in the square-matrix example eventually terminate
2021-04-29T21:49:11Z Bike: if you're defining list-of in the obvious way as (deftype list-of (type) `(or null (cons ,type (list-of ,type)))), it won't terminate
2021-04-29T21:49:16Z loli: yes, and the example I wish to give also terminates
2021-04-29T21:49:27Z loli: no I don't need to do that
2021-04-29T21:49:47Z loli: for example for a fixed type you can write
2021-04-29T21:49:50Z loli: (defun list-of-strings-p (list) (and (consp list) (every #'stringp list)))
2021-04-29T21:49:57Z Bike: if you're okay with the SATISFIES version you can do that.
2021-04-29T21:50:09Z loli: yes, but how do I pass information into typep
2021-04-29T21:50:19Z Bike: What do you mean?
2021-04-29T21:50:24Z Bike: What information does it need to know?
2021-04-29T21:50:27Z loli: well typep takes a string
2021-04-29T21:50:30Z loli: (typep '("a") 'list-of-strings)
2021-04-29T21:50:31Z loli: ideally I could say
2021-04-29T21:50:39Z Bike: Sure. That should work.
2021-04-29T21:50:43Z loli: (typep '("a") '(list-of string))
2021-04-29T21:50:50Z loli: so I don't have to write a version for every single type
2021-04-29T21:51:22Z Bike: SATISFIES works with a global function name, so you probably can't make that work, unfortunately
2021-04-29T21:51:48Z loli: so I have to generate every type I care about? How do arrays work with their type specification
2021-04-29T21:51:49Z phoe: I remember that someone tried to make it work with a gensym
2021-04-29T21:52:00Z phoe: loli: arrays have implementation support unlike list-of
2021-04-29T21:52:10Z loli: so it's special in the compiler?
2021-04-29T21:52:13Z phoe: and there's a whole thing about array specialization that conses don't need to care about
2021-04-29T21:52:16Z phoe: yes
2021-04-29T21:52:43Z loli: what a shame, so I guess I'll make a macro definition that spits out order-1 types from a forall
2021-04-29T21:52:50Z loli: doing specializtion by hand then?
2021-04-29T21:53:39Z loli: wait, are functions fixed as well, cause functions can take types as well?
2021-04-29T21:56:26Z phoe: types? what do you mean
2021-04-29T21:56:49Z phoe: you can declare argument and return value types for functions if that's what you mean
2021-04-29T21:56:51Z loli: (declaim (ftype (function (integer) integer) test))
2021-04-29T21:56:56Z phoe: yes
2021-04-29T21:57:08Z kagevf: great write-up local package nicknames ... thank you for that, phoe
2021-04-29T21:57:32Z loli: we can state it takes an integer and gives back an integer, does this not use the same satifies system, or is it baked in like the array?
2021-04-29T21:57:38Z loli: where one can't make their own version
2021-04-29T21:57:45Z phoe: kagevf: I need to fix it someday
2021-04-29T21:57:49Z phoe: loli: the latter
2021-04-29T21:57:59Z kagevf: phoe: what's wrong with it??
2021-04-29T21:58:03Z phoe: SATISFIES is the last resort of the type system
2021-04-29T21:58:10Z phoe: kagevf: I don't like its rant-ish style
2021-04-29T21:58:20Z loli: yeah... satisfies sadly only takes arguments with 1 argument, Maybe I can prop something together with dynamic variables to inject it?
2021-04-29T21:58:31Z kagevf: oh ... I see ... thought it was useful fwiw
2021-04-29T21:58:32Z phoe: sure
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2021-04-29T21:58:45Z phoe: I mean, I know it's useful, I got some people say it
2021-04-29T21:58:51Z phoe: I just think I can make it more useful, someday™
2021-04-29T21:59:14Z kagevf: phoe: right on. btw, are you a fan of "naruhodo za warudo"?
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2021-04-29T21:59:23Z loli: I tried this before: (deftype list-of (type) `(and list (satisfies ,(is-type-of type)))). Now let us try dynamic binding
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2021-04-29T21:59:57Z phoe: kagevf: nope, not that za warudo - but that's already #lispcafe material
2021-04-29T22:00:11Z kagevf: right right ... was just curious :)
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2021-04-29T22:06:55Z loli: yeah I could see a gensym approach working if you specalized the type at every single application instance you found
2021-04-29T22:07:06Z loli: sadly my dynamic variable technique wasn't enough to get past satisfies
2021-04-29T22:08:09Z dieggsy: is it possible to start hunchentoot in a way that does block?
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2021-04-29T22:16:39Z gigamonkey: CL-ASHOK: I think Conrad Barski came up with the "Made with Secret Alien Technology" and the googly-eyed alien logo before he wrote Land of Lisp.
2021-04-29T22:18:23Z loli: for those curious about the solution I have. the specalizer looks something like this. https://ghostbin.lain.la/paste/jwg6j Note that the concatenate call is incorrect because I forgot the function to coerce a symbol into a string
2021-04-29T22:19:19Z Nilby: dieggsy: block until what? you could bt:join-thread on it's taskmaster thread if that's what you mean.
2021-04-29T22:20:14Z dieggsy: Nilby: until i kill the thread i suppose --- that is what i mean, i think. how do i get it's taskmaster thread ?
2021-04-29T22:21:56Z saturn2: loli: here's how i would do it https://ghostbin.lain.la/paste/scerb
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2021-04-29T22:23:12Z loli: does get-predicate work on lambda?
2021-04-29T22:23:21Z loli: I think i tried that with another approach and it failed
2021-04-29T22:23:29Z loli: ahh nevermind you are sending it in the get-predicate
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2021-04-29T22:24:20Z loli: yeah let me try yours, seems more elegant, rather than having a specalizer
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2021-04-29T22:24:45Z loli: ahh perfect that does work
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2021-04-29T22:25:05Z loli: this works across packages as well, no weird name kludging due to dynamic variables right?
2021-04-29T22:25:24Z saturn2: yes, i believe so
2021-04-29T22:26:18Z loli: how nice, we can probably make it even slightly nicer by giving it a name so the error messages are nicer
2021-04-29T22:26:24Z loli: I'm shocked this works, given you just indirected the lambda
2021-04-29T22:26:29Z saturn2: that would be a good idea, yes
2021-04-29T22:26:45Z loli: shouldn't it complain about a not global functions ince we are just accessing the lambda inside the gethash
2021-04-29T22:27:34Z saturn2: get-predicate calls compile to make it a global function if it does not already exist
2021-04-29T22:28:04Z loli: ahh I see, so that's how you're cheating it
2021-04-29T22:28:30Z loli: I never really called compile before, if I had I might have thought of that trick
2021-04-29T22:30:06Z saturn2: get-predicate does not take an actual function, but a lambda expression
2021-04-29T22:30:11Z loli: one last question, how do you use typep with types that take types like this? I never figured that one out
2021-04-29T22:30:14Z loli: yes
2021-04-29T22:30:19Z loli: compile with a name is what makes it global
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2021-04-29T22:31:43Z saturn2: i'm not sure i understand your question about typep
2021-04-29T22:32:30Z loli: well in the old way with a deftype of no arguments you can write
2021-04-29T22:32:33Z loli: (typep (list 1 2 3 4) 'list-of-strings)
2021-04-29T22:32:45Z loli: the odd thing about this form is that it takes the symbol, so I don't see how I can apply it
2021-04-29T22:32:56Z loli: testing your function works great for how I actually use it
2021-04-29T22:32:58Z loli: (sig test-foo (-> (list-of integer) integer))
2021-04-29T22:33:00Z saturn2: oh, you just use a quoted list
2021-04-29T22:33:21Z loli: (typep (list 1 2 3 4) '(list-of string))?
2021-04-29T22:33:31Z saturn2: yes
2021-04-29T22:33:34Z loli: oh you're right... huh it was erroring before
2021-04-29T22:33:38Z loli: this is great
2021-04-29T22:33:52Z saturn2: glad to help :)
2021-04-29T22:37:37Z Nilby: dieggsy: You can do it, but it's not in the API, so I probably shouldn't reccomend it.
2021-04-29T22:38:20Z Nilby: dieggsy: This is probably a bad idea, but (bt:join-thread (slot-value (slot-value hunchentoot::*acceptor* 'hunchentoot::taskmaster) 'hunchentoot::acceptor-process))
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2021-04-29T22:39:23Z dieggsy: Nilby: fair. i'm trying to set up a simple server for local Oauth 2.0 authentication. Basically I just need a one time server that waits (blocks), gets a request with some info, sends back "done, close this tab", then dies and other code can go on to do stuff wtih that info
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2021-04-29T22:39:58Z dieggsy: i've done it in CHICKEN, but there I had manual control over the thread the web server started in
2021-04-29T22:40:20Z dieggsy: i suppose i could just.. poll some variable or something instead
2021-04-29T22:41:03Z dieggsy: or, maybe i'm being an idiot and i just work the entire logic into the easy-handler. .... that would make more sense I think
2021-04-29T22:41:05Z loli: hmm one small error, saturn2 it seems when I compile the file it says the type is undefined, is this due to staging?
2021-04-29T22:42:57Z loli: it seems to just disappear if you load the entire file
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2021-04-29T22:44:04Z saturn2: hmm... the gensyms might disappear between compile and load
2021-04-29T22:44:07Z Nilby: dieggsy: Another way is just to look for hunchentoot-listener, in bt:all-threads
2021-04-29T22:44:19Z loli: ahh that error again, never a fun one to run into
2021-04-29T22:44:32Z Nilby: dieggsy: which is probably more stable?
2021-04-29T22:45:17Z dieggsy: Nilby: would you happen to know if i can make an easy handler send a response and *then* shut down the hunchentoot server too?
2021-04-29T22:45:55Z dieggsy: the way i understand it the easy handler depends on the last return value as opposed to some kind of send-response function, so i don't see that working either
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2021-04-29T22:47:24Z Nilby: dieggsy: I think you can just call (hunchentoot:stop *acceptor*)
2021-04-29T22:47:49Z dieggsy: Nilby: right, but how would i send a response before doing that ?
2021-04-29T22:48:11Z dieggsy: So that the page can have some kind of "this worked" text lol
2021-04-29T22:48:23Z dieggsy: appreciate the help btw
2021-04-29T22:49:00Z loli: I've never really gotten over the gensym issues like this in the past, since the language doesn't help. saturn2 I guess what we could do is declare a package for these functions to live, so it doesn't clash, sadly we can't gensym that namespace
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2021-04-29T22:52:07Z Nilby: dieggsy: This seemed to work (bt:make-thread (lambda () (sleep 5) (hunchentoot:stop hunchentoot:*acceptor*))) or I guess you could just call (exit) or something.
2021-04-29T22:54:08Z dieggsy: Nilby: Oh, that's. yep. that would make sense. I'll try that out. thank you!
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2021-04-29T22:55:44Z loli: I'll complete this extension later, I at least have a plan to fix it, thanks again saturn2
2021-04-29T23:00:05Z saturn2: sure
2021-04-29T23:00:26Z Nilby: dieggsy: You're welcome. More things "🗲 by 🆑 "
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2021-04-29T23:01:09Z saturn2: loli: i think there's probably a way to make it all work by using load-time-value, but it's tricky...
2021-04-29T23:01:29Z loli: oh there is actually a way around it?
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2021-04-29T23:10:42Z josrr: dieggsy: maybe you can use hunchentoot:send-headers; it returns a stream where you cand send de response. https://edicl.github.io/hunchentoot/#send-headers
2021-04-29T23:11:35Z dieggsy: josrr: oh cool!! i had sort of glossed over that. thanks
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2021-04-29T23:18:18Z josrr: dieggsy: sure, hope it helps.
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2021-04-29T23:26:53Z saturn2: loli: okay i guess i was wrong, there's no way to make the load-time-value trick work in a deftype, it only works in a regular macro or symbol-macro
2021-04-29T23:27:20Z loli: how does that work, saturn2, I've had this issue when I tried implementing module functors into CL before IIRC
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2021-04-29T23:27:33Z loli: I had some weird edge cases IIRC, it's been a while though
2021-04-29T23:28:08Z saturn2: well, if you need your macro to have persistent side effects, you can make it expand to (progn (load-time-value (side-effects-here)) (other-stuff))
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2021-04-29T23:28:24Z saturn2: but there seems to be no way to make that work in a type specifier
2021-04-29T23:29:43Z loli: huh so that works even through gensym naming?
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2021-04-29T23:30:40Z saturn2: you could still do it if you made a wrapper macro around deftype
2021-04-29T23:31:37Z loli: yeah, you could implement a lot if you did it that way
2021-04-29T23:31:42Z saturn2: but in that case you might as well just give your custom type predicate a symbol name and use regular defun
2021-04-29T23:32:18Z loli: do hygenic macros help at all? I know Racket has a reflective tower with their macro system
2021-04-29T23:32:25Z loli: where they can do very heavy lifting and compose macros nicer
2021-04-29T23:32:39Z dieggsy: josrr: actually, what's the usual way to write to a binary stream ?
2021-04-29T23:32:52Z saturn2: not sure, i'm not really a scheme person
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2021-04-29T23:33:25Z loli: it seems a lot of research has gone into pushing hygenic macros, I think they are much stronger, but I lack enough scheme knowledge to see how they got their tower of abstraction
2021-04-29T23:34:24Z dieggsy: i dunno about stronger, pretty much every scheme will provide unhygienic macros as well cause there's some things you can't do with hygienic macros
2021-04-29T23:34:26Z dieggsy: ...least not easily
2021-04-29T23:34:46Z loli: well from oleg's blog I got a hygenic macro that makes an unhygenic macro system
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2021-04-29T23:35:01Z dieggsy: loli: ok but that man is a wizard
2021-04-29T23:35:08Z dieggsy: heh. fair point though
2021-04-29T23:35:10Z moon-child: loli: you can do the other way around too :P
2021-04-29T23:35:27Z loli: very small amount of code
2021-04-29T23:35:39Z loli: but the interesting thing is, he mentions in a number of his articles about better composing macros
2021-04-29T23:35:48Z saturn2: i always thought hygenic macros mostly just saved you from having to type alexandria:once-only
2021-04-29T23:36:16Z loli: and the hygiene it seems to offer better techniques to preserve lexical scoping
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2021-04-29T23:37:35Z saturn2: what you would need is a way for a macro to hook into the loading mechanism and do stuff when the containing file is loaded
2021-04-29T23:37:54Z loli: http://okmij.org/ftp/Scheme/macros.html#ck-macros I believe here he mentions the CPS style passing they typically do. But I believe Racket provides good kinds of abstractions for this as well
2021-04-29T23:38:09Z loli: for the deftype fix?
2021-04-29T23:38:50Z saturn2: yes
2021-04-29T23:39:05Z Bike: i think the problem is just that CL's type system can't do what you want it to do, rather than anything about macros exactly
2021-04-29T23:39:13Z saturn2: yes, that too
2021-04-29T23:39:20Z saturn2: we are being a bit silly here
2021-04-29T23:39:43Z loli: sure, but that's fine though
2021-04-29T23:40:39Z dieggsy: i know i could just write one, but is there a standard CL way to denote a bytestring
2021-04-29T23:40:51Z dieggsy: like, interpret this string as a sequence of bytes instead of a sequence of chars
2021-04-29T23:40:57Z dieggsy: #b"eg" or something
2021-04-29T23:42:19Z josrr: dieggsy: I have used cl:write-sequence for that (to write to a binary stream)
2021-04-29T23:42:20Z Bike: there are no reader macros for element types other than bit, character, and T
2021-04-29T23:42:34Z dieggsy: josrr: neat, thanks.
2021-04-29T23:42:46Z dieggsy: I suppose (map 'list #'char-code "string") might work
2021-04-29T23:45:16Z dieggsy: cool, that does work. send-headers and stopping within the handler also seems to be working. neat
2021-04-29T23:45:25Z saturn2: dieggsy: i think you want babel:string-to-octets or similar
2021-04-29T23:46:11Z dieggsy: saturn2: eh, it's simple enough i'd rather not pull in another dep, but that's a good library to keep in mind, thanks
2021-04-29T23:47:29Z no-defun-allowed: Good luck with non-ASCII characters.
2021-04-29T23:48:26Z josrr: dieggsy: hunchentoot depends on flexi-streams; you can use flexi-streams:string-to-octets
2021-04-29T23:48:55Z dieggsy: *no-defun-allowed*: it's a hardcoded string literal
2021-04-29T23:48:58Z dieggsy: josrr: oh, neat
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2021-04-30T00:13:19Z nij: ,tell beach : Have you found out how to use CommonDoc to parse Scriba, say the example in this page? http://commondoc.github.io/docs/formats.html
2021-04-30T00:13:31Z nij: Er..
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2021-04-30T00:26:22Z Bike: try ::notify beach
2021-04-30T00:27:12Z nij: ::notify beach Hi
2021-04-30T00:27:13Z Colleen: nij: Got it. I'll let beach know as soon as possible.
2021-04-30T00:27:59Z nij: ::notify beach : Have you found out how to use CommonDoc to parse Scriba, say the example in this page? http://commondoc.github.io/docs/formats.html
2021-04-30T00:27:59Z Colleen: nij: Got it. I'll let beach know as soon as possible.
2021-04-30T00:28:13Z gigamonkey: Oh no, is minion getting old and tired and new blood has been brought in?
2021-04-30T00:28:14Z nij: Hmm.. somehow I remember the syntax is "tell".
2021-04-30T00:28:41Z nij: Where can I see the source of the bot? And can I hack the bot too :-)?
2021-04-30T00:28:57Z gigamonkey: minion: who's colleen
2021-04-30T00:28:58Z minion: superman
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2021-04-30T00:29:07Z gigamonkey: colleen: who's minion?
2021-04-30T00:29:07Z Colleen: Unknown command. Possible matches: 8, set, say, mop, get, block, time, tell, roll, help,
2021-04-30T00:29:10Z nij: colleen: who's minion
2021-04-30T00:29:10Z Colleen: Unknown command. Possible matches: 8, set, say, mop, get, block, time, tell, roll, help,
2021-04-30T00:29:12Z nij: ha ok
2021-04-30T00:29:31Z nij: Colleen, tell minion that you are better than it.
2021-04-30T00:29:32Z Colleen: minion: Unknown command. Possible matches: 8, time, tell, set, say, mop, get, tell to, have a, grant,
2021-04-30T00:29:32Z minion: please stop playing with me... i am not a toy
2021-04-30T00:29:38Z gigamonkey: colleen: help
2021-04-30T00:29:39Z Colleen: See 'help about' for general information. Try 'help X' to search for or retrieve information about a command.
2021-04-30T00:29:52Z gigamonkey: colleen: help tell
2021-04-30T00:29:53Z Colleen: Command Syntax: tell USER &STRING COMMAND
2021-04-30T00:29:53Z Colleen: Documentation:  Show someone else the output of a command.
2021-04-30T00:29:55Z nij: So.. how do I hack collen and minion?
2021-04-30T00:30:24Z gigamonkey: The minion source used to be around somewhere. Dunno about this new kid.
2021-04-30T00:30:40Z nij: Will ask tomorrow. Have to run :-)
2021-04-30T00:30:40Z nij: GN!
2021-04-30T00:30:50Z gigamonkey: Maybe here: https://github.com/stassats/lisp-bots
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2021-04-30T00:39:00Z gourdhen: what do you guys think about carp? https://github.com/carp-lang/Carp
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2021-04-30T00:42:02Z srandon111: anybody lisping on netbsd here ?
2021-04-30T00:42:18Z srandon111: i heard that common lisp support in netbsd is poor and that it does not support threading
2021-04-30T00:42:19Z gigamonkey: gourdhen: Seems fine but pretty far in the language space from Common Lisp.
2021-04-30T00:42:52Z no-defun-allowed: gourdhen: no
2021-04-30T00:42:58Z no-defun-allowed: I think no
2021-04-30T00:43:37Z gourdhen: it's just I notice you guys spend a lot of time talking about the gc - and not talking about lisps without gcs
2021-04-30T00:43:55Z no-defun-allowed: A Lisp without a GC simply isn't.
2021-04-30T00:44:43Z Bike: it seems difficult to do metaprogramming in a statically typed language.
2021-04-30T00:45:17Z no-defun-allowed: And then the performance of some memory manager that isn't a GC can be way worse, and often even more unreliable (unfair comparison: average reference-counting implementation vs. Metronome on a bad day).
2021-04-30T00:45:53Z Bike: the readme here mentions macros but the manual doesn't really describe them.
2021-04-30T00:46:06Z no-defun-allowed: Bike: https://github.com/carp-lang/Carp/blob/master/docs/LanguageGuide.md#dynamic-functions says you get lists at compile-time.
2021-04-30T00:46:09Z gigamonkey: But (based on skimming the docs) if you want a static, no gc language for interrop with libs in some environment in a Lisp dialect (so you can have macros) their thing seems fine.
2021-04-30T00:46:24Z Bike: i see.
2021-04-30T00:46:30Z gigamonkey: I have never heard of it before today so I have no idea how good the thing actually is.
2021-04-30T00:46:34Z no-defun-allowed: That's the other thing - I don't want to be caught dead with a static language.
2021-04-30T00:48:24Z no-defun-allowed: gourdhen: In short, the GC is a pain if you have a bad one, but not having one is more of a pain.
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2021-04-30T01:00:06Z moon-child: I think it's more that a language without a gc either leaks or has fundamentally different semantics than what you would expect from a lisp
2021-04-30T01:00:44Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, "a static language" is part of that.
2021-04-30T01:02:02Z no-defun-allowed: I mean, you can call it Lisp or "a dialect" or even "an exo-lisp" or whatever crap people say, it still looks awful to write any programs with.
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2021-04-30T01:04:32Z no-defun-allowed: Wonder how well a Haskell "dialect" with dynamic types and mutable objects would be received. Lispers excuse a lot more than that.
2021-04-30T01:04:55Z gigamonkey: no-defun-allowed: isn't that Lisp ;-)
2021-04-30T01:05:30Z no-defun-allowed: gigamonkey: I'd keep the infix notation, and make >>= do what it does in C just to throw them off.
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2021-04-30T01:06:07Z gigamonkey: I guess you could keep laziness and partial application.
2021-04-30T01:06:50Z gigamonkey: Or currying, I guess it is in Haskell.
2021-04-30T01:08:29Z no-defun-allowed: Point is, it can be called whatever, if it doesn't have late binding I'm out
2021-04-30T01:08:46Z srandon111: people anybody know about what is the support of sbcl in netbsd ?
2021-04-30T01:09:16Z no-defun-allowed: Pretty sure SBCL supports NetBSD.
2021-04-30T01:10:16Z gigamonkey: srandon111: There's a download for a binary of an old verison. Grab that and the latest source and see if you can build the latest. Might Just Work.
2021-04-30T01:10:22Z gigamonkey: http://www.sbcl.org/platform-table.html
2021-04-30T01:10:56Z srandon111: no-defun-allowed, i heard there is no support for threading
2021-04-30T01:10:58Z srandon111: on netbsd
2021-04-30T01:11:41Z no-defun-allowed: sbcl.org won't load here today, but I swear I saw a release note that said they restored the non-threaded build; potentially suggesting that there is a threaded build. Or not.
2021-04-30T01:13:13Z srandon111: no-defun-allowed, what do you mean?
2021-04-30T01:13:32Z gigamonkey: Look at the note for 2.1.1 at http://www.sbcl.org/all-news.html
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2021-04-30T01:34:10Z dieggsy: are global parameters that can be setf'd pretty common ? if not, are there alternatives ?
2021-04-30T01:34:42Z Bike: they're reasonably common.
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2021-04-30T01:35:03Z dieggsy: what i mean is, say i have some client library for a web API that requires a client id and a secret ke - is it reasonable to have (defvar client-id) (defvar secret-key) and have the person using the library setq them?
2021-04-30T01:35:06Z dieggsy: Bike: ah, ok
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2021-04-30T02:43:14Z gigamonkey: dieggsy: note, however that you almost certainly want to use the *name* convention for DEFVAR'd and DEFPARAMETER'd variables.
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2021-04-30T02:43:57Z dieggsy: gigamonkey: oh, i actually sent them that way, i guess matrix did something weird because markdown syntax lol
2021-04-30T02:44:49Z gigamonkey: ah.
2021-04-30T02:47:22Z dieggsy: oof, that's annoying. i guess ican
2021-04-30T02:47:26Z dieggsy: (defvar *this*)
2021-04-30T02:47:49Z dieggsy: yeah, i can escape it with /plain which uh more like pain amirite
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2021-04-30T02:52:18Z mister_m: I have a list of strings I'd like to turn into a property list, is there a function that will give me an uninterned symbol to use as a "key" for a property list?
2021-04-30T02:53:52Z mister_m: sorry, to be more clear: I have a string that I'd like to turn into a symbol that will not be interned in the current package
2021-04-30T02:54:20Z no-defun-allowed: clhs make-symbol
2021-04-30T02:54:20Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_sym.htm
2021-04-30T02:54:44Z mister_m: no-defun-allowed: thank you
2021-04-30T02:54:49Z gigamonkey: Though note that you may  want to upcase the string.
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2021-04-30T02:58:59Z mister_m: ah that would have bit me I am sure
2021-04-30T02:59:25Z dieggsy: If i'm e.g. going to generate a lambda-list in a defmacro from a list of strings should i use intern or make-symbol ?
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2021-04-30T03:01:13Z gigamonkey: In general it's best not to create new symbols that are exposed to your users. Though I'm sure there exceptions.
2021-04-30T03:01:23Z gigamonkey: What are you trying to do?
2021-04-30T03:01:41Z dieggsy: gigamonkey: generate code based on a swank spec
2021-04-30T03:01:56Z dieggsy: parameters are listed as strings
2021-04-30T03:02:10Z gigamonkey: Are you parsing some non-sexp representation of the spec?
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2021-04-30T03:02:47Z dieggsy: gigamonkey: it's json, parsed with jonathan.the relevant bit looks something like ... :|parameters| '("char_id" "lang") ...
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2021-04-30T03:02:57Z gigamonkey: If you are truly starting from strings then, yes, you'll need to create symbols.
2021-04-30T03:02:58Z dieggsy: gigamonkey: whoops, i meant a swagger spec
2021-04-30T03:03:18Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-04-30T03:03:22Z gigamonkey: If the symbols are going to be exposed as part of the API, you should probably INTERN them into the appropriate package.
2021-04-30T03:03:35Z dieggsy: gigamonkey: do i have to intern them though? i'm using intern for the defun name, but if i'm making symbols for a parameter list
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2021-04-30T03:03:43Z gigamonkey: If they're just parameter names in the macro expansion, you can use MAKE-SYMBOL or GENSYM.
2021-04-30T03:04:30Z gigamonkey: Yeah, if the name is purely internal I'd use MAKE-SYMBOL or GENSYM. Probably MAKE-SYMBOL in this case is it seems slightly more descriptive of what you're doing.
2021-04-30T03:05:21Z dieggsy: Ah. cool. thank you
2021-04-30T03:06:29Z gigamonkey: And you may want to further lispify the names, e.g. (mapcar #'(lambda (s) (make-symbol (substitute #\- #\_ (string-upcase s)))) '("char_id" "lang"))
2021-04-30T03:06:47Z gigamonkey: (though if they're not public doesn't really matter.)
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2021-04-30T03:07:04Z gigamonkey: morning, beach.
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2021-04-30T03:20:50Z beach: Hey gigamonkey.  Good to see you back.
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2021-04-30T03:29:14Z beach: phoe: So I take it, to you, Common Lisp eVALUation does not produce a value.
2021-04-30T03:29:52Z beach: phoe: And VALUES does not actually produce values.
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2021-04-30T03:34:28Z beach: phoe: So instead of accepting the term I introduced a long time ago for a concept that otherwise does not have a widely agreed-upon name (i.e., uniform reference semantics), you introduce four new terms.
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2021-04-30T03:58:55Z CL-ASHOK: @gigamonkey - many thanks for clarifying on the origins of the phrase
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2021-04-30T04:30:55Z beach: phoe: Oh, and SYMBOL-VALUE does not produce a value either, I guess.
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2021-04-30T05:07:40Z perdent: How can I acquire a 10 traces and plot them with a  lisp plotting library, and examine them from this remote server in lisp? nc 138.68.182.108 31262
2021-04-30T05:07:41Z perdent: how would the code look?
2021-04-30T05:08:34Z perdent: Traces are from an osiliscope
2021-04-30T05:08:56Z perdent: So I captured the embedded device that was used to encrypt the ciphers I am trying to break. How would I be able to recover its Encryption  Key?  here is the socket_interface: https://pastebin.com/4z0bwjAT and here is the remote lab layout: https://ibb.co/q9j59Mq
2021-04-30T05:10:38Z no-defun-allowed: Very carefully.
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2021-04-30T05:15:23Z no-defun-allowed: You would presumably do differential power analysis on the device, which involves sending some plaintext to the device, observing the power draw, and determining something about the (otherwise hidden) intermediate values in encryption.
2021-04-30T05:16:04Z no-defun-allowed: One source suggested there is correlation between the power draw and Hammond weight (LOGCOUNT) of some value used in a computation.
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2021-04-30T05:35:42Z beach: minion: Please tell phoe about semantics.
2021-04-30T05:35:42Z minion: phoe: please look at semantics: For a concise definition of the Common Lisp semantics of assignments and function calls, please see http://metamodular.com/common-lisp-semantics.html
2021-04-30T05:36:39Z beach: Others can have a look as well of course, and I would appreciate feedback.  But I am not going to redefine established terms.
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2021-04-30T05:49:45Z phoe: beach: "evaluation does not produce a value", what do you mean?
2021-04-30T05:49:51Z phoe: which four new terms?
2021-04-30T05:50:34Z beach: I am doing my exercise.  I'll be back in 30 minutes.
2021-04-30T05:51:29Z phoe: okay
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2021-04-30T06:17:03Z beach: If "value" means "not a pointer", then some expressions when eVALUated, do not return a value.
2021-04-30T06:17:40Z phoe: beach: OK, but you said that "to me" - which part of my article do you mean?
2021-04-30T06:17:50Z saganman: Morning beach
2021-04-30T06:17:56Z saganman: Morning #lisp
2021-04-30T06:17:59Z beach: 1. call-by-pointer 2. assign-directly 3. assign-by-locative 4. assign-by-name
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2021-04-30T06:18:56Z beach: phoe: Well, you start by saying that Common Lisp is not call-by-value ("neither").
2021-04-30T06:20:08Z beach: Hello saganman.
2021-04-30T06:20:12Z phoe: beach: when people ask in terms of C++ semantics, then Common Lisp is neither C++-call-by-value nor C++-call-by-reference
2021-04-30T06:20:33Z beach: I don't care much.  You seem to.
2021-04-30T06:20:47Z phoe: yes, I do
2021-04-30T06:20:59Z phoe: I think it's worth to explain Lisp to people who know C++
2021-04-30T06:21:11Z phoe: and who are therefore conditioned to think in C++ terms
2021-04-30T06:21:16Z beach: My page explains what Common Lisp does, using well established terms, and making references to other languages.  That I think, is the best way of presenting the ideas.
2021-04-30T06:21:30Z no-defun-allowed: They'll be conditioned to C++ full stop.
2021-04-30T06:22:24Z beach: I also think that people, be it C++ programmers or others, who ask about Common Lisp semantics, do so because they are willing to learn established terminology.  And we should not disappoint them.
2021-04-30T06:23:07Z phoe: I try to describe what CL does by comparing and differentiating it with what C++ does, and I consider that to be the best strategy
2021-04-30T06:23:17Z beach: Since I whipped up that page rather hastily, the details may not be great, but I think the basic idea is there.
2021-04-30T06:23:30Z phoe: yes, I see the basic idea in there
2021-04-30T06:23:38Z no-defun-allowed: phoe: I haven't read your writeup though - do you have a link?
2021-04-30T06:23:45Z phoe: no-defun-allowed: https://gist.github.com/phoe/c48b34275cf40bece9dbc5e555555214
2021-04-30T06:23:52Z no-defun-allowed: Thanks.
2021-04-30T06:25:08Z phoe: beach: and established terminology is that looking up "call by value" in Google produces a page whose 70% results are things that you don't care about
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2021-04-30T06:25:33Z phoe: and I'm adapting to that fact rather than calling this to be Google's problem
2021-04-30T06:25:40Z beach: That only shows that what Google produces is mostly wrong.
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2021-04-30T06:26:27Z phoe: yes, and I'm translating from what Google says to what Lisp does, whereas you explain what Lisp does without using any of this
2021-04-30T06:26:30Z jdz: The lost art of looking up information without web search.
2021-04-30T06:26:52Z beach: There might even be a significant correlation between people who write things that Google picks up, and people who are not willing to study the literature of computing.
2021-04-30T06:28:27Z no-defun-allowed: Just saying (as I was jogging my brain for Lisp implementations which interpret, to measure the performance of my own), you have a whole lot more to get C++ programmers to unlearn than the lack of uniform reference semantics.
2021-04-30T06:28:36Z phoe: I don't think it's a good approach to say that if a C++ programmer wants to learn Lisp, they should first study the literature of computing instead of using Google to learn by differentiation
2021-04-30T06:28:47Z phoe: no-defun-allowed: obviously
2021-04-30T06:29:24Z jdz: Pretty sure this has been a common suggestion here that "learning by differentiation" is a mistake and should be abandoned from the very beginning.
2021-04-30T06:29:25Z phoe: there was this idea of a book, Lisp for C++ programmers, that basically tries to teach by pointing out all the differences
2021-04-30T06:30:30Z phoe: jdz: hmmmm, are there some written notes and/or articles about that?
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2021-04-30T06:31:34Z no-defun-allowed: I have been wondering if differentiation makes it easier or harder for the reader to think they can get away with re-using C++ concepts unless otherwise stated.
2021-04-30T06:31:45Z engblom: When I see something like (declare (ignore obj)), is it a line that could actually be removed and the program would do the same thing?
2021-04-30T06:32:00Z phoe: engblom: yes, it tells the compiler to not warn you about unused variables
2021-04-30T06:32:12Z engblom: phoe: Thanks, then I got that one right!
2021-04-30T06:32:35Z phoe: (lambda () 42) and (lambda (&optional x) 42) both do the same thing when called with zero arguments, but one of them can cause the compiler to warn you that you might have forgotten to use a variable that you established
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2021-04-30T06:33:30Z phoe: no-defun-allowed: people are going to reuse language concepts all the time via reflexes, that's the whole problem of learning X as a second language - no matter if it's a language for programming or a talking
2021-04-30T06:33:57Z phoe: and I can attest to that as neither English nor Lisp are my "native" programming languages
2021-04-30T06:34:30Z phoe: so I guess that the best thing to do here is point all of the differences out and make sure that the C++ programmer reading the book remembers that this, this, and this is explicitly done differently in Lisp
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2021-04-30T06:35:05Z jdz: phoe: In my experience that's only when learning the second language.  After that this reflex diminishes with each additional language one learns.
2021-04-30T06:35:35Z phoe: jdz: yes, the first time learning a non-first language is the hardest
2021-04-30T06:38:05Z jdz: It just might be worthwhile to help people become aware of this phenomenon (and fight it) than to play along and hope for the best.
2021-04-30T06:39:13Z jdz: I'm afraid that in this case a C++ person will play around for a while and then declare something like "Lisp is really weird, everything's wrong and in the wrong places.  I'm going back to C++!"
2021-04-30T06:39:28Z no-defun-allowed: My fear is one will write C++ in Lisp.
2021-04-30T06:41:11Z phoe: jdz: how does one fight it? achieving a real beginner's mind is a pretty daunting task on its own and I don't think it can be expected of everyone who wants to learn Lisp
2021-04-30T06:41:11Z jdz: Yes, in this case the person might stick with Lisp, but it might take quite a while for them to start "thinking in Lisp".  And quite a bit of damage might be done along the way.
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2021-04-30T06:42:27Z jdz: phoe: Learning a new thing is not easy, yes.  But trying to teach somebody Arabic by telling "it's just like English, you just write from right to left."
2021-04-30T06:42:36Z saturn2: maybe C++ programmers need a whole book on unlearning C++ before they even start on anything else
2021-04-30T06:42:36Z jdz: Is the wrong approach.
2021-04-30T06:42:46Z Nilby: On the other hand when I did C++, I tried to make it do keyword arguments, fake lambdas, and GC.
2021-04-30T06:43:40Z Duuqnd: A company I've worked with used code generation of c++ which felt a lot like poor man's macros to me
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2021-04-30T06:44:16Z Nilby: My rage at the C++ committee was nearly at the level of my admiration for the CL committee.
2021-04-30T06:44:31Z no-defun-allowed: Reminds me of a tutorial book that was posted to #lisp which (at least) beach and I reviewed. The first declaration was declaring some variable to be a FIXNUM.
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2021-04-30T06:45:05Z moon-child: phoe: to make an analogy to natural language, it's generally considered a bad idea to learn by translating--by modeling forms in the new language in terms of the forms of one's native language.  One should rather attempt to think natively in the new language, without bias
2021-04-30T06:45:14Z ecraven: I sometimes envy c++ for things like https://github.com/nholthaus/units. not sure how to do that sort of compile-time checking in any Lisp (which might be entirely my fault ;)
2021-04-30T06:45:18Z no-defun-allowed: If one thinks that they can write C++ in Lisp, then draws out a book...
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2021-04-30T06:45:30Z moon-child: I think programming languages are different from natural languages in many respects, but that there is an extent to which the same principle applies
2021-04-30T06:45:43Z moon-child: ecraven: coalton
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2021-04-30T06:46:19Z Nilby: Duuqnd: In the old days when I was doing it, you were nearly forced to do some pre-processing. e.g. QT used to have to pre-process to do callbacks right.
2021-04-30T06:46:35Z moon-child: Nilby: qt still does that
2021-04-30T06:47:07Z ecraven: moon-child: thanks, I'll have a look at that ;)
2021-04-30T06:47:15Z jdz: ecraven: You might find this article series interesting: https://medium.com/@MartinCracauer/a-gentle-introduction-to-compile-time-computing-part-3-scientific-units-8e41d8a727ca
2021-04-30T06:47:19Z Duuqnd: I can't show any code examples of what this company did since I'm under NDA but it was big files of code completely auto-generated based on XML files.
2021-04-30T06:47:30Z phoe: moon-child: jdz: hmmmmm
2021-04-30T06:47:52Z phoe: what's the approach of all those books "X for Y programmers" then
2021-04-30T06:47:58Z ecraven: jdz: thanks for that link!
2021-04-30T06:48:30Z no-defun-allowed: "It's easy to write Lisp, just write (f x y) instead of f(x, y)"
2021-04-30T06:50:35Z jdz: phoe: There is value in such books, but they should tell outright that they're just a crutch (or training wheels), until one learns to think in the new language properly.
2021-04-30T06:51:00Z phoe: training wheels, I can dig that idea
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2021-04-30T07:19:57Z engblom: How do I get tab complete to work while writting lisp code in emacs?
2021-04-30T07:20:43Z beach: C-c C-i
2021-04-30T07:22:12Z beach: But it only sort-of works, since Emacs has no idea about the role of different identifiers in different contexts.  So you will likely get suggested completions that are completely wrong.
2021-04-30T07:22:47Z phoe: engblom: I have company-mode installed which shows all possible completions, along with slime-company
2021-04-30T07:22:48Z engblom: Thanks!
2021-04-30T07:26:28Z Nilby: If C-c C-i doesn't work, you can usually try M-/ too
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2021-04-30T08:07:33Z engblom: I have been trying to find any documentation for slime-repl with all the shortcuts. In particular I am trying to find how to run something again that I run earlier. I know I can scroll past all output until the cursor is on the form I want to run and then press enter, but that is too much work. How to I get the history without having to scroll?
2021-04-30T08:08:02Z beach: M-p
2021-04-30T08:08:20Z beach: Or, if it is far back M-r and then complete.
2021-04-30T08:08:40Z engblom: Would it be easy to remap that to something else? M-p will open dmenu (as I am using xmonad as window mangaer)
2021-04-30T08:09:24Z engblom: Preferable I would want up and down arrow in slime-repl for history and page-up and page-down for scrolling.
2021-04-30T08:09:27Z beach: M-p is used in many many Emacs situations, so it would probably be better to remap what xmodad uses.
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2021-04-30T08:10:52Z beach: engblom: It is generally faster to use keys that are easily accessible without lifting your fingers from the home row on the keyboard.
2021-04-30T08:11:12Z beach: Arrows and page-up/down are not easily accessible.
2021-04-30T08:11:41Z beach: C-v and M-v (or rather C-[ C-v) are much faster to use than the page keys.
2021-04-30T08:11:58Z beach: ... and M-p M-n are faster than the arrow keys.
2021-04-30T08:12:34Z moon-child: beach: depends on the keyboard :P
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2021-04-30T08:13:22Z beach: Maybe when I officially retire in a bit more than 9 months, I should also retire from #lisp.
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2021-04-30T08:14:19Z engblom: Anyway, xmonad is heavily using alt-key already and as I need xmonad functions more often than emacs functions, I want to keep alt as reserved for xmonad. This means I need to change emacs to work with xmonad.
2021-04-30T08:14:27Z beach: engblom: Or use VIM.  Then you won't have any of these problems.
2021-04-30T08:15:07Z beach: engblom: Good luck either way.
2021-04-30T08:15:07Z engblom: beach: I came from vim. But I got told that I better use emacs those times I write lisp.
2021-04-30T08:15:28Z engblom: Anyway, maybe I should map windows key to meta in emacs, somehow.
2021-04-30T08:15:44Z beach: engblom: It was a sarcastic remark, related to the fact that a lot of things I suggest lately are criticized.
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2021-04-30T08:16:01Z no-defun-allowed: I use Super/Windows for window manager stuff (using i3wm).
2021-04-30T08:17:05Z no-defun-allowed: Generally that is the window manager key (Windows even provides some shortcuts using it as a modifier) and no application will provide shortcuts using it.
2021-04-30T08:17:15Z engblom: no-defun-allowed: It is too uncomfortable to use window key as often as I have to use for window manager (as the thumb has to go under the hand). I still think I could use it for emacs as I more seldom need M- there.
2021-04-30T08:17:49Z Nilby: One trick is to use Control-Meta-<> for window manager things and if you need it in emacs do Escape Control-<>
2021-04-30T08:18:05Z no-defun-allowed: Right, I don't usually use window manager commands frequently.
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2021-04-30T08:33:16Z xificurC: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_rm_dup.htm states "The order of the elements remaining in the result is the same as the order in which they appear in sequence."
2021-04-30T08:33:34Z xificurC: CL-USER> (remove-duplicates '(1 2 1 3))
2021-04-30T08:33:34Z xificurC: (2 1 3)
2021-04-30T08:34:13Z no-defun-allowed: All but the last duplicates are removed.
2021-04-30T08:34:36Z xificurC: am I misreading something?
2021-04-30T08:34:42Z no-defun-allowed: Unless you do  (remove-duplicates '(1 2 1 3) :from-end t) in which case you get (1 2 3)
2021-04-30T08:34:54Z moon-child: xificurC: the elements 2, 1, and 3 all appear in that order in the original sequence
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2021-04-30T08:35:19Z xificurC: I see 1 before 2
2021-04-30T08:35:50Z beach: I see 1 after too as well.
2021-04-30T08:35:55Z beach: after 2.
2021-04-30T08:35:57Z beach: Sorry.
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2021-04-30T08:37:28Z beach: xificurC: "if any two match, then the one occurring earlier in sequence is discarded."
2021-04-30T08:38:18Z xificurC: so if I want to retain the order I can use :from-end, correct?
2021-04-30T08:38:31Z beach: It retains the order in both cases.
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2021-04-30T08:38:44Z beach: The question is which of two elements is discarded.
2021-04-30T08:40:25Z beach: xificurC: Here the first and the third elements match, so the first is discarded.  If you want the second one to be discarded, then yes, use :FROM-END T.  Maybe your example is confusing because you have a partial numeric order, which has nothing to do with what this function does.
2021-04-30T08:42:06Z beach: xificurC: So (remove-duplicates '(3 2 1 1)) does not return (1 2 3) but (3 2 1).
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2021-04-30T08:49:15Z jdz: It might also help to use different items, and tweak :test and/or :key parameters.  Like (remove-duplicates '("one" "two" "ONE" "three") :test #'string-equal).
2021-04-30T08:49:35Z beach: Good idea.
2021-04-30T08:50:01Z beach: A VERY good idea, in fact.
2021-04-30T08:50:12Z jdz: Thanks!
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2021-04-30T08:51:25Z pjb: engblom: use C-h m in the buffer to see the key binding provided by the current modes.
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2021-04-30T08:51:50Z engblom: pjb: Thanks!
2021-04-30T08:52:33Z jdz: Or C-h b.
2021-04-30T08:53:02Z engblom: I also got a good solution for my meta-key problem: I wanted to still use the physical alt-key for window manager, so I swapped with xmodmap alt and windows, and then configured xmonad to use windows. Now the physical windows key is alt in emacs.
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2021-04-30T08:53:30Z jdz: engblom: Not also that you can use ESC instead of Meta in Emacs.
2021-04-30T08:53:48Z jdz: M-p would be ESC p.
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2021-04-30T08:54:12Z beach: And C-[ instead of ESC so as to avoid quitting the home row.
2021-04-30T08:54:17Z jdz: Right.
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2021-04-30T08:54:47Z engblom: jdz: No, ESC will not work because I run evil (because I am coming from vim).
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2021-04-30T08:55:08Z beach: *sigh*
2021-04-30T08:55:28Z jdz: Doctor, please help!  It hurts when I do this!
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2021-04-30T08:56:01Z beach: Indeed.
2021-04-30T08:56:25Z engblom: beach: As I am not using American keyboard, I can not get [ without using Alt Gr (=right alt).
2021-04-30T08:58:45Z jdz: engblom: You can still customize key bindings if the default ones do not work for you.
2021-04-30T08:59:08Z engblom: Anyway, now things are working for me. Thank you for putting up with the frustrating of helping me with these maybe odd things.
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2021-04-30T09:17:46Z madrik: Is the '.cl' extension widely used? I've only seen it associated with Allegro CL.
2021-04-30T09:19:03Z no-defun-allowed: I can't recall the last time I saw a .cl file.
2021-04-30T09:19:56Z White_Flame: it's been many years since we had an ACL license, and I don't remember .cl at all :)
2021-04-30T09:21:05Z White_Flame: I could see it being a DOS-era extension more appropriate than .lis though
2021-04-30T09:21:40Z jdz: Or .lsp.
2021-04-30T09:22:29Z moon-child: .lp, maybe.  (l)ist (p)rocessing.  But I agree .cl is optimal if you're strictly 8.3
2021-04-30T09:22:33Z madrik: The audio editor Audacity has a bunch of files with the '.lsp' extension.
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2021-04-30T09:23:38Z madrik: I think ASDF's defsystem allows for using '.cl' files, but with a special option.
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2021-04-30T10:28:38Z pyc: Is there a way to create a local variable in the current scope? I know LET but LET requires me to open a new scope and if I need LET within LET, then the code becomes deeply nested. Is there a way to do something like (setq-local foo "value") such that it is defined in the current DEFUN but not defined in the global scope?
2021-04-30T10:29:33Z no-defun-allowed: You could write (let (x) ...) to leave X "uninitialized" and then set it later.
2021-04-30T10:29:50Z no-defun-allowed: By "uninitialized" I mean it will be bound to NIL, but the expectation of the reader is that it won't be used until it is set.
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2021-04-30T10:33:37Z pyc: no-defun-allowed: Is (let (x) ...) correct syntax? Or should it be (let ((x)) ...) ?
2021-04-30T10:34:17Z no-defun-allowed: That is correct, yes.
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2021-04-30T10:35:24Z pyc: I am confused now. are (let (x) ...) and (let ((x)) ...) equivalent?
2021-04-30T10:36:02Z no-defun-allowed: I don't think (let ((x)) ...) is correct syntax.
2021-04-30T10:37:12Z pyc: Okay, Understood finally from here: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/s_let_l.htm When there is no init-form, the extra parentheses isn't required.
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2021-04-30T11:03:59Z Shinmera: no-defun-allowed: they're both correct.
2021-04-30T11:04:45Z no-defun-allowed: Huh, so it is.
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2021-04-30T11:29:35Z White_Flame: pyc: &aux in the lambda list will create variables for the DEFUN scope without LET
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2021-04-30T11:34:43Z White_Flame: but any lexical variable is generally modelled equivalently, all can be rewritten as ((lambda (local1 local2...) ...) init1 init2...) in the current scope
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2021-04-30T11:44:20Z phoe: there's a nasty edge case if variables are named after lambda list keywords but most of the time you don't need to care about it
2021-04-30T11:44:41Z White_Flame: yep
2021-04-30T11:44:49Z White_Flame: hence the ampersand :)
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2021-04-30T11:55:13Z nij: How are lambdas compiled into machine codes?
2021-04-30T11:56:56Z White_Flame: depends on the compiler
2021-04-30T11:57:06Z White_Flame: but, same as any function, really
2021-04-30T11:57:24Z White_Flame: just does more runtime parameter checking to support &optional, &key, etc if present
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2021-04-30T11:58:13Z White_Flame: if you mean the example above, one would hope the compiler would inline literal lambda usage like that
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2021-04-30T12:00:19Z nij: I mean something as easy as (lambda (x) x)
2021-04-30T12:00:40Z White_Flame: check that there's 1 parameter, else error.  put parameter into return value.  return
2021-04-30T12:00:41Z nij: Does it got compiled first to fasl, and then to assembly?
2021-04-30T12:00:52Z White_Flame: fasl is only when you compile a file
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2021-04-30T12:01:44Z White_Flame: and the fasl isn't a compiled snapshot, like a saved image is.  It's fast-loading instructions to do the same that the toplevel stuff does
2021-04-30T12:02:30Z nij: hmm
2021-04-30T12:02:51Z nij: Does it even get compiled into assembly at some point?
2021-04-30T12:03:00Z phoe: if you use SBCL, then yes
2021-04-30T12:03:03Z White_Flame: in most implmeentations, yes
2021-04-30T12:03:13Z White_Flame: (disassemble (lambda (x) x))
2021-04-30T12:04:13Z nij: lisp => assembly => fasl?
2021-04-30T12:04:30Z White_Flame: of course, for something that small you'll probably be looking mostly at the function epilogue, especially if the 1st parameter & return registers are the same
2021-04-30T12:04:45Z no-defun-allowed: Lisp -> some stuff -> assembly
2021-04-30T12:05:04Z White_Flame: lisp => assembly, or .lisp file => .fasl file => assembly
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2021-04-30T12:05:54Z White_Flame: (I'm no expert on fasl stuff, though)
2021-04-30T12:06:00Z nij: Do both ways give the same assembly?
2021-04-30T12:06:06Z White_Flame: probably
2021-04-30T12:06:20Z nij: I've heard in elisp there are at least two ways, and the end results are different.
2021-04-30T12:06:23Z nij: Horrible..
2021-04-30T12:06:33Z White_Flame: there might be some environmental differences that cause codegen change, like having everything available in a single compilation unit or not
2021-04-30T12:08:31Z nij: amazing..
2021-04-30T12:10:26Z White_Flame: and if you had macros in your fasl files, they'd still evaluate at load, and if they read global vars or config or anything, they'd generate different machine code based on what was there at time of .fasl load
2021-04-30T12:10:35Z White_Flame: (I might be wrong on that, though)
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2021-04-30T12:15:10Z White_Flame: yeah, that is wrong.  macroexpansion is fully done with compile-file as well
2021-04-30T12:16:04Z nij: Hmm.. so how to compile is not in spec, and dependent to each implementations.. I guess I have to study the source of sbcl then.
2021-04-30T12:16:17Z White_Flame: what are you trying to find?
2021-04-30T12:17:07Z nij: Understand how lisp codes are turned into machine codes.
2021-04-30T12:17:38Z White_Flame: disassemble is the easiest way
2021-04-30T12:17:58Z White_Flame: and there's likely some internals docs in sbcl, explaining the internal ABI
2021-04-30T12:19:33Z White_Flame: if you literally mean the "how" of compilation, that's stock compiler stuff
2021-04-30T12:23:37Z nij: I see.. it seems like the magic is hidden in https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/d35ad6f9bee212499cb827fec3195bf2064c10a2/src/compiler/target-disassem.lisp#L2060
2021-04-30T12:23:44Z nij: which disassemble calls
2021-04-30T12:23:57Z Nilby: Just read to code to a lisp compiler. You don't have to fully understand it to get an idea how it works.
2021-04-30T12:24:39Z nij: You mean code a lisp compiler by myself, Nilby?
2021-04-30T12:24:50Z Nilby: _read_
2021-04-30T12:25:49Z nij: ? what should I read
2021-04-30T12:26:23Z Nilby: sbcl, ccl
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2021-04-30T12:26:42Z White_Flame: I meant to run DISASSEMBLE and look at the output, not read DISASSEMBLE's source code ;)
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2021-04-30T12:27:27Z White_Flame: there's also sb-disasm:disassemble-code-component which can display more componentry, like function prologues, that disassemble on its own might elide
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2021-04-30T12:27:59Z White_Flame: *sb-disassem:
2021-04-30T12:30:33Z nij: Oh, interesting i can see that NIL is stored at #x50100117 !
2021-04-30T12:30:37Z Nilby: For example you can see sbcl defines compilation in terms of VOPs or virtual operations, which are like a macro template for generating platform specific code. Operations in lisp are defined to be a set of these virtual operations which have various properties, pre/post conditions, etc. Then these are evntualy refined down to platform instructions in lisp objects, which can be turned into bits and stored in memory and executed or
2021-04-30T12:30:37Z Nilby: written to fasls.
2021-04-30T12:30:49Z nij: How do I see where other objects are stored?!
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2021-04-30T12:31:31Z White_Flame: only a few are fixed like that
2021-04-30T12:32:03Z White_Flame: IP-relative locations pointing to stuff are likely movable by GC
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2021-04-30T12:32:28Z Nilby: ccl does it a little different, but not to far off.
2021-04-30T12:32:53Z White_Flame: yep, this is all deep in implementation specifics
2021-04-30T12:33:22Z Nilby: ecl compiles to C, and sends it to the c compiler
2021-04-30T12:34:30Z jdz: clisp compiles to bytecode, which is a bit like middle ground.
2021-04-30T12:40:57Z Nilby: I apologize to compiler experts for my shabby descriptions.
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2021-04-30T12:45:59Z jackdaniel: ecl has two compilation targets: bytecodes and targetting C source code
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2021-04-30T13:12:53Z beach: Suppose we had a parsed and exploitable version of the dpANS.  I mean, we don't but such a thing could be had if enough effort were put into it.  If we did have such a thing, how should it be managed?
2021-04-30T13:13:02Z beach: I feel it would not be advantageous to have a multitude of clones and individual modifications to it.  What would we use it for?
2021-04-30T13:13:08Z beach: I can see at least a better Common Lisp UltraSpec, i.e., a free version of the Common Lisp HyperSpec with better markup.
2021-04-30T13:13:14Z beach: I can also see a version of it in the form of an object graph as I have suggested many times for documentation representation.
2021-04-30T13:13:15Z beach: And I would like to use such a thing for WSCL, i.e., create a more specified specification that would then also keep (as footnotes maybe) the original wording of the standard, and explain the differences.  Any suggestions?
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2021-04-30T13:17:26Z jackdaniel: re managing: there should be a trusted authority to moderate it (i.e to remove spam or to resolve conflicts)
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2021-04-30T13:17:56Z Nilby: I just want to be able to access pieces of it in development tools, and be able to control how it's presented. But I support all those other uses.
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2021-04-30T13:19:20Z pyc: do you ever use the format control "~d"? I see "~a" suffice for most situation. Is it a good practice to use "~a" all the time and use other format controls only when we need to?
2021-04-30T13:19:48Z jackdaniel: re different versions of the same part of the document - either there are different versions linked in the same page (I'm not  sure what to do with footnotes - they may not apply to the implementation-specific version)
2021-04-30T13:20:41Z jackdaniel: or there is one "base version", and implementation-specific things go after that under different sections
2021-04-30T13:21:29Z jackdaniel: (or as footnotes of course)
2021-04-30T13:22:00Z nij: I just fancy a better presentation will drag more people into #lisp. But I support all those other uses.
2021-04-30T13:22:01Z Nilby: pyc: Since ~d will fallback to ~a, I think using ~d can help know the intent.
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2021-04-30T13:22:17Z beach: I am paying attention to all suggestions, and I may ask questions about them, but I am not going to argue a particular idea myself at this point.
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2021-04-30T13:26:05Z xificurC: beach thanks for the clarification, I'm responding a bit late as I was away
2021-04-30T13:26:10Z beach: nij: More people will use Lisp when it starts being taught in more undergraduate programs in computer science.  I am now of the opinion that any such undergraduate program should teach Common Lisp, or something similar, in order to be considered as such.  I don't know of a single person who thought about using Common Lisp and then decided against it because of the markup of the Common Lisp HyperSpec.
2021-04-30T13:26:10Z beach:  
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2021-04-30T13:26:40Z beach: xificurC: Sure.  Did you try the suggestion with strings to see what it does?  I think that was a clever idea.
2021-04-30T13:26:43Z nij: If I become a professor, I will volunteer teaching in CL. But before that I must have polish my skills xD
2021-04-30T13:27:15Z nij: That's fair point.
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2021-04-30T13:27:43Z beach: xificurC: With that example, the duplicate elements are distinguishable, but they are still considered duplicates because of the comparison function.
2021-04-30T13:28:00Z xificurC: beach no but I understand what's going on now. I still find the wording I quoted utterly misleading though
2021-04-30T13:28:12Z xificurC: beach yeah it was a good suggestion
2021-04-30T13:28:12Z phoe: nij: brzmi dobrze, jeśli będziesz potrzebował pomocy to pisz śmiało
2021-04-30T13:28:12Z beach: OK.
2021-04-30T13:28:24Z nij: phoe ok
2021-04-30T13:28:34Z phoe: oops sorry, I polished a bit too much
2021-04-30T13:28:41Z nij: lokllll
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2021-04-30T13:45:15Z jdz: phoe: polish notation is off-topic on #lisp
2021-04-30T13:45:29Z beach: :)
2021-04-30T13:46:20Z Nilby: but at least we can have finnish-output
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2021-04-30T13:47:42Z beach: And Czech-type.
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2021-04-30T13:55:35Z beach: Would there be reasons to grant access selectively to a parsed dpANS?  It would be "easy" to accomplish, since the result of the analysis would be automatically subject to copyright according to the Berne convention.  If so, what kind of access would be granted/refused?
2021-04-30T13:56:06Z beach: It may require legal actions to enforce, of course, and funds for such actions may not be available.
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2021-04-30T14:00:15Z _death: some levenshtein-based suggestions: chad-code, qatar (cadar), poland (logand), read-char-no-ghana, egypt (expt), canada (cadadr)
2021-04-30T14:05:37Z _death: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2419#2419
2021-04-30T14:06:16Z jdz: We amateurs did not look silly enough for _death.
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2021-04-30T14:12:20Z dieggsy: _death: this is wonderful
2021-04-30T14:12:28Z Bike: read-char-no-ghana...
2021-04-30T14:13:12Z dieggsy: ...i have to wonder about the similarity of "chad" to *LOAD-PATHNAME*
2021-04-30T14:13:44Z dieggsy: that can't possibly be a levenshtein distance less than 2
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2021-04-30T14:15:35Z Bike: it's obviously breaking up the hyphenations
2021-04-30T14:15:40Z Bike: and chad is distance 2 from load
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2021-04-30T14:16:41Z phoe: oh gods what have I started
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2021-04-30T14:18:17Z _death: I should've just substituted the state for the similar word in the name, but oh well ;)
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2021-04-30T14:21:08Z jackdaniel: to bring bad puns to another level I'll just say that you sound as if you had a lisp
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2021-04-30T14:29:42Z dieggsy: Bike: oh, i'm an idiot thanks
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2021-04-30T14:30:24Z _death: edited the paste
2021-04-30T14:30:34Z ebrasca: Do you have some recomendation for decoding/encoding binary formats?
2021-04-30T14:30:35Z dieggsy: _death: what is adeht/un/states ?
2021-04-30T14:32:54Z _death: dieggsy: adeht is code that runs on my server (adeht.org).. some years ago I wrote something to scrape some UN press releases and make some funny image based on them
2021-04-30T14:33:52Z dieggsy: ah, ok
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2021-04-30T14:34:36Z dieggsy: _death: is that a hunchentoot server ?
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2021-04-30T14:34:59Z _death: dieggsy: yes, behind nginx
2021-04-30T14:36:31Z _death: dieggsy: apparently I updated that image in 2020 for some irc joke.. https://adeht.org/img/ban.png
2021-04-30T14:38:47Z dieggsy: _death: ah - any pointers on that setup? I currently have a chicken scheme server but i've been thinking about moving to hunchentoot and/or putting it behind nginx as well
2021-04-30T14:39:16Z dieggsy: dunno much about nginx, i think i sort set it up *once*
2021-04-30T14:42:01Z pjb: jdz: not at all, lisp is almost pure polish notation. We just add parentheses for two reasons: 1- allow for variable arity operators, 2- allow to process code without knowing a-priori the arity of the operators.
2021-04-30T14:42:35Z pjb: But if you restrict yourself to fixed arity operators, you can remove the parentheses: + 2 * 3 4   vs. (+ 2 (* 3 4))
2021-04-30T14:42:50Z dieggsy: pjb: i think it was a joke about the polish language
2021-04-30T14:43:08Z pjb: dieggsy: I noticed, but still :-)
2021-04-30T14:43:20Z _death: dieggsy: I set it up many years ago.. reverse proxy and detachtty.. I have https://zaries.wordpress.com/2010/11/09/lisp-web-server-from-scratch-using-hunchentoot-and-nginx/ in history, but it's very old.. there are newer blog posts on the web
2021-04-30T14:43:40Z pjb: All lispers should learn Polish, and polishing.
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2021-04-30T14:47:01Z dieggsy: pjb: i've sort of talked this to death but i used emacs calc a decent amount in college
2021-04-30T14:47:53Z ebrasca: pjb: I live in Poland but I don't know how to write Polish...
2021-04-30T14:48:28Z dieggsy: i've also polished like, five pieces of fine silverware in my life lol
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2021-04-30T14:48:49Z jcowan: I once worked on an ISLISP implementation on top of CL, since kmp would not release his; the working name was Blésité, anglicized as Blesity.  Gave up eventually.
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2021-04-30T14:52:53Z beach: Nice name.
2021-04-30T14:53:45Z jcowan: Question for all: does anyone have a sense of how much adjustable strings are used?   My sense is that there is a cross-language tendency to treat strings as immutable, and even when mutable, as unadjustable.
2021-04-30T14:54:42Z jcowan: s/are used/& in CL/
2021-04-30T14:54:52Z Bike: they don't seem common to me. with-output-to-string is more usual
2021-04-30T14:58:12Z jcowan: Thanks.
2021-04-30T14:58:46Z _death: could make sense in a READ-LINE-INTO operator
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2021-04-30T15:04:51Z Nilby: I use adjustable strings/arrays quite a bit, but maybe I shouldn't.
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2021-04-30T15:05:42Z beach: jcowan: What are you planning to do with this information?
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2021-04-30T15:09:46Z aeth: jcowan: An example of an adjustable string, when reading Airship Scheme symbols: https://gitlab.com/mbabich/airship-scheme/-/blob/12dbbb3b0fe7ea7cf82e44cbaf736729cc005469/scheme-read.lisp#L851
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2021-04-30T15:11:16Z dieggsy: aeth: is there some sort of status/progress page for airship scheme ?
2021-04-30T15:11:30Z aeth: jcowan: That file might be the only time I've done that, though, because it is very niche
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2021-04-30T15:12:11Z jcowan: Thanks.  I had forgotten that adjustable arrays work only when the max size is known in advance.
2021-04-30T15:12:56Z engblom: If I have something like ((:a 1)(:a 3)(:a 2)), how do I find the higest value of property :a from a plists? Is there something simpler than sorting the list and taking the first element (which I know how to do)?
2021-04-30T15:14:00Z beach: engblom: Loop and keep the max.  And that is not a plist.
2021-04-30T15:14:02Z aeth: dieggsy: Progress, yes, but ignore the actual dates unless you enjoy seeing things be pushed back months at a time (I just did that again). https://gitlab.com/mbabich/airship-scheme/-/milestones
2021-04-30T15:14:28Z engblom: beach: each (:a 1) are plists or?
2021-04-30T15:14:41Z dieggsy: aeth: cool, thanks
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2021-04-30T15:15:20Z aeth: dieggsy: The features are well specified, but the timeline isn't
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2021-04-30T15:17:01Z beach: engblom: If you like, but then there is only one element in each, so no need to compute the max.  The entire thing looks like an association list to me.
2021-04-30T15:18:29Z beach: engblom: Sorting is O(n log n) but looping and keeping the max is O(n).
2021-04-30T15:20:37Z jdz: engblom: There's (loop for cell in '((:a 1)(:a 3)(:a 2)) maximize (second cell)), but that will get you the value, not the property list with the highest value.
2021-04-30T15:21:54Z _death: (alexandria:extremum '((:a 1) (:a 3) (:a 2)) #'> :key (lambda (plist) (getf plist :a)))
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2021-04-30T15:36:20Z engblom: beach: It was a simplified example. The real plists are bigger and having other values
2021-04-30T15:36:31Z beach: Oh, OK.
2021-04-30T15:36:33Z engblom: jdz: Thanks, that is more simple than what I just wrote
2021-04-30T15:38:38Z engblom: _death: I actually already use alexandria, so your solution might actually make most sense
2021-04-30T15:39:26Z _death: if you just want the value a simple reduce or loop like has been suggested is good
2021-04-30T15:41:52Z engblom: _death: Yes, I just need the value, nothing else
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2021-04-30T17:33:43Z sbcltester: hello, does sbcl work well on windows?
2021-04-30T17:34:02Z luis: It's OK.
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2021-04-30T17:34:24Z sbcltester: does that mean it has regressions that affect only windows?
2021-04-30T17:34:47Z luis: It has windows-specific bugs, yes.
2021-04-30T17:35:03Z Duuqnd: It's not that bad though
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2021-04-30T17:35:14Z sbcltester: are you using it?
2021-04-30T17:35:21Z luis: Yes.
2021-04-30T17:35:29Z sbcltester: i am evaluating whether to use just clojure or sbcl
2021-04-30T17:35:36Z Duuqnd: When I have to use Windows I use SBCL and it works just fine
2021-04-30T17:35:52Z Duuqnd: so yeah, there are Windows specific bugs but it's not a deal breaker
2021-04-30T17:36:04Z ChoHag: Does anyone else call it 'sbaccle'?
2021-04-30T17:36:15Z sbcltester: is brodeaux thread supported?
2021-04-30T17:36:20Z luis: sbcltester: yes.
2021-04-30T17:36:34Z sbcltester: ok thanks all
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2021-04-30T17:36:44Z ChoHag: (It's my go-to for CL, btw, and I'm happy with it but not on windows)
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2021-04-30T17:37:14Z Duuqnd: All problems I've had are with Windows, not SBCL
2021-04-30T17:38:00Z sbcltester: as long as i can put a few workarounds that doesn't need patching the runtime :)
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2021-04-30T17:39:00Z luis: Duuqnd: so, the nastiest bug so far is that if you call C++ code that uses exceptions internally, they'll trip on SBCL's exception handler
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2021-04-30T17:54:56Z luis: you can't interrupt threads in FFI-land, that can be annoying too
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2021-04-30T17:59:50Z gigamonkey:  is there anything about SBCL on Windows that is painful within language standard? (i.e. excluding FFI and threads and whatnot)
2021-04-30T18:00:32Z gigamonkey: (I'm imagining that if I do a 2nd edition PCL I'd recommend SBCL since it now runs on Unix, MacOS, and Windows but I've never actually tried it on Windows.)
2021-04-30T18:01:09Z sbcltester: to be honest it might be better to tell people to use wsl2 in a book
2021-04-30T18:01:17Z sbcltester: but i need to use opengl
2021-04-30T18:03:00Z phoe: gigamonkey: yes, CRLF
2021-04-30T18:03:00Z luis: gigamonkey: I can't imagine what could go wrong there. (And I haven't seen it go wrong there in the past of 1.5 years of using it heavily on Windows.)
2021-04-30T18:03:30Z gigamonkey: phoe: how so? Are CRLF line endings not translated to #\Newline?
2021-04-30T18:03:30Z luis: phoe: oh god CRLF. Well that's not within the standard is it?
2021-04-30T18:03:38Z phoe: gigamonkey: (format t "~
2021-04-30T18:03:40Z phoe: ")
2021-04-30T18:03:56Z phoe: on windows that is not #\Tilde #\Newline, that is #\Tilde #\Return #\Newline
2021-04-30T18:04:04Z phoe: and #\Tilde #\Return is undefined
2021-04-30T18:04:21Z gigamonkey: phoe: frankly, that's what I'd expect.
2021-04-30T18:04:25Z phoe: me too
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2021-04-30T18:04:29Z phoe: but still, it's a pain in the butt
2021-04-30T18:04:41Z phoe: on Windows all Lisp files need to be Linux-line-ended to be safe
2021-04-30T18:04:42Z luis: Yeah, ~<CR> will signal an error
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2021-04-30T18:04:55Z sbcltester: most windows tools now a days work fine with LF only
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2021-04-30T18:05:04Z phoe: yes, thankfully
2021-04-30T18:05:17Z phoe: but still, it can be a punch in the gut to people who don't suspect it
2021-04-30T18:05:18Z gigamonkey: Okay, maybe I never use literal line endings in format strings like that.
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2021-04-30T18:06:11Z luis: We've patched SBCL with the hackiest CRLF support you can imagine. file-position returns wrong results. *sigh*
2021-04-30T18:06:39Z gigamonkey: I mean, CRLF is always the worst. But assuming, eg. READ-LINE properly consumes the CRLF and TERPRI and FRESH-LINE emit CRLFs, I think that's about the best you can hope for.
2021-04-30T18:06:52Z phoe: gigamonkey: some libraries do, and fail on windows/crlf
2021-04-30T18:06:52Z luis: gigamonkey: no it doesn't
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2021-04-30T18:07:15Z gigamonkey: FILE-POSITION also probably doesn't work well with multi-byte encodings of text, right?
2021-04-30T18:07:17Z gigamonkey: luis: doesn't do which?
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2021-04-30T18:07:37Z luis: gigamonkey: SBCL doesn't do any sort of CRLF <-> #\Newline conversion
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2021-04-30T18:07:48Z gigamonkey: oh. :-(
2021-04-30T18:07:56Z phoe: gigamonkey: that depends, I guess
2021-04-30T18:08:35Z luis: gigamonkey: but, hey, if you tell us that's the only thing stopping you from recommending it in PCL2, the priority for that issue might increase dramatically :D
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2021-04-30T18:08:58Z phoe: I think FILE-POSITION is based on an internal counter due to utf-8 or something
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2021-04-30T18:09:14Z luis: file-position works fine with multi-byte encondings
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2021-04-30T18:09:26Z phoe: oh? what's the solution?
2021-04-30T18:09:47Z gigamonkey: luis: really? That's cool. But presumably expensive.
2021-04-30T18:10:14Z gourdhen: this is a weird question... but could someone recommend an article or link about how and why they enjoy coding? I have been trying to code for years - but I am so friggin indecisive about which language to learn.
2021-04-30T18:10:38Z gigamonkey: luis: I'll let you know if I can work out the details with Apress. But if I do I'd definitely like to recommend some open source Lisp that runs well on Unix, MacOS, and Windows.
2021-04-30T18:10:39Z phoe: gourdhen: I think #lispcafe might be open to discussing this rather than just linking to articles
2021-04-30T18:10:42Z luis: gourdhen: you should read gigamonkey's Coders at Work
2021-04-30T18:10:46Z gourdhen: phoe: thanks
2021-04-30T18:10:54Z phoe: luis: :D
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2021-04-30T18:10:59Z phoe: talk about a good time to mention it!
2021-04-30T18:11:09Z gigamonkey: And I've been using SBCL forever so I'd be happy for it to be the winner.
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2021-04-30T18:11:37Z Duuqnd: I'm happy as long as there are two good free implementations
2021-04-30T18:11:48Z gigamonkey: gourdhen: unfortunately, if you read Coders at Work you may well come away with the conclusion that you should learn Haskell. At least that was my conclusion from having written it. ;-)
2021-04-30T18:11:52Z phoe: well there's five good free implementations, with the sixth being WIP
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2021-04-30T18:12:05Z gigamonkey: (Then again, I already knew Common Lisp.)
2021-04-30T18:13:07Z luis: Haskell error messages are the worst.
2021-04-30T18:13:27Z jackdaniel: error: something went wrong.
2021-04-30T18:13:32Z gabc: luis: looked at an error message from a C++ compiler recently? :P
2021-04-30T18:14:10Z Duuqnd: "Can't cast size_t to uint32_t because I don't feel like it :)"
2021-04-30T18:14:30Z luis: phoe: so, IIRC, file-position = current file position - number of bytes in the Lisp buffer.
2021-04-30T18:15:04Z luis: phoe: if there's no ambiguity between Lisp char and number of encoded bytes, you should be fine
2021-04-30T18:16:33Z gigamonkey: I mean, every language has warts. But that was my takeaway, from reading between the lines of all the interviews. Some people (Simon Peyton Jones obviously) were big into Haskell. But others, like Peter L Deutch talked about things they wanted from their dream language that I was like, I think that's Haskell, dude. Which is not to say it's the perfect language or that I don't still love Common Lisp. But it's a language worth coming to
2021-04-30T18:16:33Z gigamonkey: grips with. But #haskell is over there, so I'll shut up about it.
2021-04-30T18:17:25Z gigamonkey: luis: I guess I forgot that you can't use FILE-POSITION to seek to arbitrary positions in a stream, only to ones that have been previously returned by FILE-POSITION.
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2021-04-30T18:18:58Z gigamonkey: phoe: what are the five? And WIP == work in progress?
2021-04-30T18:19:10Z Duuqnd: The work in progress would be SICL
2021-04-30T18:20:25Z luis: gigamonkey: oh I didn't know about that either. The bug I was complaining about was with querying the current file position, not seeking
2021-04-30T18:21:20Z gigamonkey: I think FILE-POSITION could be conformantly implemented if it always just returned the byte offset.
2021-04-30T18:21:30Z phoe: gigamonkey: SBCL, CCL, ECL, Clasp, ABCL
2021-04-30T18:21:33Z phoe: SICL is WIP
2021-04-30T18:21:36Z gigamonkey: But in a character stream it might never return some offsets.
2021-04-30T18:21:56Z gigamonkey: Does SICL stand for something?
2021-04-30T18:21:58Z phoe: querying the current file position is easy if you have a counter
2021-04-30T18:22:06Z jackdaniel: sicl implements common lisp ,)
2021-04-30T18:22:19Z gigamonkey: of course.
2021-04-30T18:22:20Z phoe: gigamonkey: I think beach had an official backronym for it
2021-04-30T18:22:32Z jackdaniel: good night \o
2021-04-30T18:22:33Z phoe: and it might be the one that jackdaniel just mentioned
2021-04-30T18:22:34Z phoe: good night
2021-04-30T18:23:15Z luis: phoe: I have doubts about your claim that implementing file-position is easy :D
2021-04-30T18:23:34Z phoe: luis: :O
2021-04-30T18:23:35Z luis: phoe: the tricky bit is buffering
2021-04-30T18:23:46Z phoe: yes
2021-04-30T18:24:07Z gigamonkey: But don't you have to know where you are in the buffer to do anything else right?
2021-04-30T18:26:10Z drmeister: https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/MOI1LEcS/image.png
2021-04-30T18:27:22Z drmeister: gigamonkey: I think SICL stands for "Sufficiently Intelligent Compiler Library"
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2021-04-30T18:38:26Z heisig: I'm pretty sure SICL has no one true meaning.
2021-04-30T18:39:29Z heisig: Unfortunately, Sanely Bootstrappable Common Lisp was already taken.  Although we hope to have a bootstrapping procedure that is even more sane.
2021-04-30T18:41:17Z kevingal: _death: thank you for the Levenshtein puns.
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2021-04-30T18:59:37Z pyc: Is this a good way to format code: https://pastebin.ubuntu.com/p/wtGDTm8yvH/ ? I have a coding guideline not to exceed 72 columns per line. That is why trying to figure if this is a good way to wrap a long line into multiple lines like this.
2021-04-30T19:00:28Z ChoHag: pyc: Can the intended audience read it?
2021-04-30T19:00:29Z loke[m]: pyc it looks OK to me
2021-04-30T19:00:51Z pyc: ChoHag: yes. but I want to learn about good coding style too from experienced programmers in this channel
2021-04-30T19:00:54Z pyc: thanks loke[m]
2021-04-30T19:02:04Z ChoHag: Well that's the primary concern.
2021-04-30T19:02:06Z loke[m]: However I'm curious why you want to limit yourself to such short lines. Because I was like that long ago, and limited myself to 80 just because I used two use hardware terminals when I started using Unix. Many years ago I realised there is no point anymore and stopped caring. It felt like a relief.
2021-04-30T19:02:21Z loke[m]: Usually I put the width at about 140 chars now.
2021-04-30T19:04:20Z ChoHag: ~80 lets my have 4 columns in my editor.
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2021-04-30T19:05:19Z ChoHag: But each line should be as short as necessary, and no shorter.
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2021-04-30T19:10:25Z ChoHag: pyc: Personally I like to indent each new level by 8 spaces, mostly excepting let clauses.
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2021-04-30T19:18:23Z nij: If I have some code in lisp using cffi, can I have it translated to C code that would do the same thing?
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2021-04-30T19:19:52Z Bike: i guess you could probably translate it if it consisted entirely of cffi operators with no lisp functions or anything involved?
2021-04-30T19:20:48Z nij: I think so.. though I've been hit by my second dose and have been lying the whole dya.. dunno if my brain is clear.
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2021-04-30T19:21:27Z nij: Bike but even if that's the case, there's still needed to be some one translating cffi ops to C?
2021-04-30T19:21:49Z Bike: sure
2021-04-30T19:21:57Z Bike: i don't think anyone's written an automatic translator, or anything
2021-04-30T19:22:02Z Bike: because why would you want to do that anyway
2021-04-30T19:22:17Z nij: Say I'm working in a company that forces me to write C. I dunno, just curious.
2021-04-30T19:22:31Z ChoHag: Not forces.
2021-04-30T19:22:32Z ChoHag: Pays.
2021-04-30T19:22:43Z nij: Also, curious about how cffi worked. Do they translate it into C? Or it build up some CLOS that mimick C?
2021-04-30T19:22:58Z nij: ChoHag:  oh yeah
2021-04-30T19:23:20Z ChoHag: Just make sure they pay a fair share.
2021-04-30T19:23:37Z Bike: cffi is a wrapper around the implementation ffi, which generally works via a compiler extension.
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2021-04-30T19:24:57Z ChoHag: It has a lot of lisp:c interface magic in it too.
2021-04-30T19:25:27Z nij: Bike> cffi is a ...       ;; <= I don understand this
2021-04-30T19:25:55Z nij: s/don/failed to/
2021-04-30T19:25:57Z Bike: okay, so basically cffi doesn't do most of the work. it's a compatibility layer around the FFI exposed by your lisp implementation, like sbcl or ccl or whatever.
2021-04-30T19:27:12Z Bike: and how the implementation FFI works is that it defines some operators that the compiler knows to compile down into code with the correct semantics
2021-04-30T19:27:41Z Bike: for example on sbcl, sb-alien:with-alien will perform C like stack allocation. cffi's operators wrap around that.
2021-04-30T19:28:16Z nij: i see. so it's not really c?
2021-04-30T19:28:27Z Bike: not particularly, no.
2021-04-30T19:28:47Z Bike: C implementations define an ABI - application binary interface - so stuff that isn't C can interact with C code/programs.
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2021-04-30T19:29:05Z Bike: well, the implementations don't really define the ABI so much as the operating system... whatever
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2021-04-30T19:40:58Z pjb: nij: with ecl, you can insert C lines of code in lisp functions. Since ecl translates lisp to C, it can easily inject your own lines of C code in the generated code, before compiling it with gcc.  This allows you to integrate very nicely with C.
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2021-04-30T19:42:03Z pjb: nij: otherwise, CFFI does not translate to C, but use the implementation specific native FFIs, which are CL operators that directly do native code stuff.
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2021-04-30T19:43:53Z pjb: nij: the ideal tool, would be to have a C parser that would produce the C sources in form of alisp S-expressions. So you could edit C code as if it was lisp code. You could even use the CL macro system to generate more C code.  Then the inverse operation would translate the S-expressions into "maintainable" C code.
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2021-04-30T19:44:11Z pjb: nij: See for example: https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/tree/master/languages/linc
2021-04-30T19:46:12Z pjb: nij: Use the Makefile and see the generate.lisp file to see how to use it.
2021-04-30T19:46:22Z pjb: nij: it's not entirely finished yet.
2021-04-30T19:47:05Z pjb: nij: the technique is applied to several languages: https://cliki.net/s-exp%20syntax
2021-04-30T19:50:06Z pjb: nij: for new code there would be no problem using such a technique. But when maintaining legacy C code, the big problem is that the cycle of parsing and regenerating the C code would most probably change a lot of superficial things (indentation and line splits, coding style (from the use of lisp macro, the generated code would be way more homogenous and systematic).  Parsing legacy C code can also be problematic.  Notably heavy 
2021-04-30T19:50:06Z pjb: macros could pose difficulties.
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2021-04-30T19:51:24Z pjb: nij: nonetheless, it would be very cool to have such a set of tools, that would help use to manipulate foreign language code bases as easily as lisp code bases.  To solve the Y2K problems, some good tooling for Cobol has been developped in Common Lisp, to detect and correct the Y2K problems. (But public code AFAIK).
2021-04-30T19:53:09Z ChoHag: It's a bit late to solve the y2k problem.
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2021-04-30T20:00:45Z edgar-rft: As soon as a new messiah get's born it's only a matter of time until we'll have the y2k problem again.
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2021-04-30T20:12:12Z pjb: ChoHag: but the tools could be used for something else!
2021-04-30T20:12:29Z pjb: ChoHag: and we'll have a 2038 problem and a 2100 problem and so on.
2021-04-30T20:12:54Z pjb: edgar-rft: Oh, I forgot about that, indeed.  The return of Jesus should be soon enough.
2021-04-30T20:13:16Z edgar-rft: I'm already here :-)
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2021-04-30T20:13:42Z gendl__: Hi, is there a way to have swank:create-server  pick an available port automatically
2021-04-30T20:13:51Z pjb: edgar-rft: that said, I'm not entirely sure that when Jesus taked about time, it was in this timeline.  Since He's used to eternity, time could have been specified in relative terms (personal times).
2021-04-30T20:14:29Z pjb: gendl__: perhaps passing 0 for the port?
2021-04-30T20:14:42Z pjb: (swank:create-server :port 0)
2021-04-30T20:14:52Z gendl__: thanks, I will check it out.
2021-04-30T20:14:59Z pjb: yep it returns 49835
2021-04-30T20:15:52Z pjb: ~/bin/macosx-netstat-tnpl  |grep 49835
2021-04-30T20:15:52Z pjb: tcp4       0      0  127.0.0.1.49835        *.*                    LISTEN
2021-04-30T20:15:53Z pjb: yep.
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2021-04-30T20:20:13Z pjb: gendl__: however it's not usual for a _server_ to choose random ports..
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2021-04-30T20:28:01Z phoe: it's useful in case this port is then forwarded to the client in some other way
2021-04-30T20:28:17Z phoe: e.g. when you spawn a server and then spawn a client to immediately connect to it
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2021-04-30T23:20:51Z jcowan: beach: There is a vocal minority that wants to bring arbitrarily-adjustable strings to the Scheme standards.  About 2-3 implementations (out of 60-70) presently provide them.
2021-04-30T23:31:46Z Nilby: If CL didn't have them, I would have had to make them myself. It's better if the implementation does them, for possibly more efficent memory management. Ages ago when I worked on a scheme, we had adjustable strings. String port can effectively have such a thing, but don't fully expose it.
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2021-04-30T23:34:26Z jcowan: THey are easy to do, assuming you have access to the internals, provided there is an indirection pointer in your existing strings (string object that points to bytes).  If there isn't (string object contains bytes), then it's hard; you basically have to do a GC every time you change the size of a string.
2021-04-30T23:34:42Z jcowan: Not every time, but every time in principle.
2021-04-30T23:34:54Z jcowan: Nilby: which Scheme
2021-04-30T23:38:26Z Nilby: We never published it. It was going to be part of a commercial software.
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2021-04-30T23:44:01Z Nilby: But it's not like it's a big loss not to have another scheme. We were probably most similar to MIT scheme. I'm sad about the IDE we were building with it though.
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2021-04-30T23:49:05Z pjb: jcowan: indirection is not the key to efficient implementation of adjustable arrays.  It's the memory allocator that is key.  When you allocate an adjustable object, you may allocate more space, in prevision of size increases, so you don't have to move it when it's extended.  This is why it's nice to have it in the implementation: it allows the implementation to use internal features of its memory manager.
2021-04-30T23:54:02Z perdent:  no-defun-allowed how would I acquire the traces to analyze through plotting with lisp though? How would the code look?
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2021-04-30T23:54:36Z perdent: With regard to: (13:05:32) perdent: So I captured the embedded device that was used to encrypt the ciphers I am trying to break. How would I be able to recover its Encryption  Key?  here is the socket_interface: https://pastebin.com/4z0bwjAT and here is the remote lab layout: https://ibb.co/q9j59Mq
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