2021-04-01T00:01:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-01T00:01:27Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-04-01T00:02:57Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-04-01T00:03:31Z physpi quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2021-04-01T00:04:12Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-01T00:04:15Z CEnnis91 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-04-01T00:05:12Z jcowan joined #lisp 2021-04-01T00:05:41Z physpi joined #lisp 2021-04-01T00:06:33Z beach` joined #lisp 2021-04-01T00:06:40Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2021-04-01T00:10:31Z beach quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-01T00:11:20Z hineios joined #lisp 2021-04-01T00:12:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-01T00:12:26Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-04-01T00:12:56Z palter: That's really up to JCMa since he owns the Symbolics IP. 2021-04-01T00:13:19Z hineios quit (Client Quit) 2021-04-01T00:13:44Z hineios joined #lisp 2021-04-01T00:20:55Z caoliver: I know. I can't imagine it's making much revenue for him though. 2021-04-01T00:21:56Z no-defun-allowed: What's the unit for lispm equivalency? I don't know the model numbers. 2021-04-01T00:23:44Z palter: The last Ivory hardware was the XL1200. I'm comparing against that. 2021-04-01T00:24:15Z caoliver: And your speed factor is a multiple of 1200? 2021-04-01T00:25:00Z no-defun-allowed: Right, thanks. 2021-04-01T00:26:04Z caoliver: Also modern boxes should have a hella more megawords. I think my XL1201 had 8MW. 2021-04-01T00:26:37Z palter: The Ivory processor in the XL1200 ran at about 17MHz. 2021-04-01T00:27:27Z palter: We're still emulating a 32-bit processor. The default memory size in the emulator is 4095MW. 2021-04-01T00:27:45Z palter: (It's also the maximum) 2021-04-01T00:28:08Z palter: 1 Ivory word is 5 bytes (32 bits data, 8 bit tag) 2021-04-01T00:28:13Z nicktick joined #lisp 2021-04-01T00:29:11Z no-defun-allowed: How does that work out on some-power-of-two-bit machines? 2021-04-01T00:30:06Z palter: This is a freshly booted VLM on my Apple silicon Mac mini https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/iegttaDL/VLM.png 2021-04-01T00:30:56Z caoliver: Nifty. 2021-04-01T00:32:00Z caoliver: How do you have your keyboard mapped, or do you have an old 'bolix kbd interfaced to your mac? 2021-04-01T00:32:01Z palter: The emulator maps data to one area of memory and tags to another. So, if we were to somehow fill memory, it would be using 2^32 bytes for tags and 8^32. bytes for data. 2021-04-01T00:32:59Z palter: That would be 5GB 2021-04-01T00:33:00Z no-defun-allowed: Fair enough then. 2021-04-01T00:33:07Z caoliver: Splitting off the tags that way was probably the only sane thing to do. 2021-04-01T00:33:41Z palter: It is. The VLM world loads are actually store that way so we can mmap directly into memory. 2021-04-01T00:33:47Z caoliver: Eh? 4GB tags and 16GB data make 20GB I think. 2021-04-01T00:34:32Z palter: Right. It's 4GW * 5 bytes/word 2021-04-01T00:34:40Z no-defun-allowed: Is anything compiled to the register machine Genera runs on? Does that also split tags and data? 2021-04-01T00:35:03Z pjb: Unless you sort your data by tag. 2021-04-01T00:35:30Z pjb: For example, you can have only one tag per page. 2021-04-01T00:35:41Z caoliver: I suspect that has 40bit words directly. 2021-04-01T00:35:42Z palter: The stack cache is packed 1 Ivory word (tag+data) to one native word. 2021-04-01T00:35:54Z chipolux joined #lisp 2021-04-01T00:36:01Z caoliver: Much like the old DECs had 36 bit words. 2021-04-01T00:36:14Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-04-01T00:36:20Z caoliver never used those. Only PDP-11 series 2021-04-01T00:36:26Z palter: Ivory hardware actually has 48 bit words -- 32 bit data, 8 bit tag, 8 bit ECC 2021-04-01T00:36:45Z palter: Ah yes, the PDP-6 and PDP-10 2021-04-01T00:37:06Z palter: (Used to play Space War on the PDP-6 at the MIT AI Lab.) 2021-04-01T00:37:23Z caoliver: I did have some time on a heavily locked down VAX/VMS box in school, but that was no fun. 2021-04-01T00:37:44Z caoliver: I got off of that as soon as I could. 2021-04-01T00:37:50Z palter: And, for another 36 bit machine, there's Multics 2021-04-01T00:38:11Z palter: (GE 645, then Honeywell 6180 and DPS-8/M) 2021-04-01T00:38:18Z caoliver: Did you ever run across Tom Van Vleck? 2021-04-01T00:38:39Z palter: Worked with him at both MIT and Honeywell 2021-04-01T00:39:13Z palter: I spent about 10 years working on Multics split between MIT and Honeywell. 2021-04-01T00:39:21Z palter: Then 9 years at Symbolics until they shut down. 2021-04-01T00:39:22Z caoliver: Relative of his (Sally) lives near me, and her late husband and I started a small ISP back in the 90s. 2021-04-01T00:40:08Z caoliver: I'm not sure there's a good emu for Multics. 2021-04-01T00:40:28Z palter: Actually, there is one now. 2021-04-01T00:41:08Z caoliver: The only historical thing I have on my boxen is a Hercules instance running Michigan Terminal System. I tossed that together to scare an old friend who went to UMich. 2021-04-01T00:41:14Z palter: See https://multicians.org/simulator.html 2021-04-01T00:41:48Z palter: Never used that 2021-04-01T00:42:00Z caoliver: Cool. The more of these thing, the more we can corrupt the youth of Athens. ;-P 2021-04-01T00:42:05Z caoliver: s/thing/things/ 2021-04-01T00:42:09Z palter: (I've lived in Boston all my life. Started hacking in high school on an IBM 1130 in 1968) 2021-04-01T00:42:48Z palter: Guy Steele was one year behind me at school. I went to MIT and he went to Harvard. 2021-04-01T00:43:06Z caoliver: And now he lives in the belly of the beast. 2021-04-01T00:43:45Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-01T00:49:02Z caoliver lives in Michigan, and really hasn't achieved escape velocity. 2021-04-01T00:52:35Z terpri: White_Flame, revivory is a great name. i called my cl-based ivory emulator mammoth :) but it can barely POST at the moment, not close to full functionality 2021-04-01T00:53:43Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-04-01T00:54:17Z terpri: it's unfortunate that opengenera will presumably remain proprietary. some folks in #lispm were making good progress with CADR emulation (emulating newer versions than what was originally released), but the channel was locked without notice 2021-04-01T00:56:28Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2021-04-01T00:58:22Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-04-01T01:01:04Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-01T01:02:08Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2021-04-01T01:02:24Z terpri: https://tumbleweed.nu/lm-3 <- CADR work (system 78 is usable and they're trying to get system 98 or 99 working; no idea how significant the differences between versions are though) 2021-04-01T01:05:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-01T01:05:26Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-04-01T01:06:13Z countvaj` quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-04-01T01:07:06Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-04-01T01:09:48Z White_Flame: terpri: one thing that I really like and got in early is the ability to call directly from CL into Ivory functions, but that's only sane when the emulation is paused 2021-04-01T01:10:07Z White_Flame: it would be nice to transition both ways, and get native CL stuff accessed from Genera as well 2021-04-01T01:11:53Z White_Flame: my net connection is being stupid right now so I hven't kept up with the conversation, but I tried the instructions from https://static.loomcom.com/genera/genera-install.html again, and was able to build VLM from source, which is really, really good for me to be able to continue now. It hadn't worked in the past from source builds for me 2021-04-01T01:13:41Z aeth_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-01T01:15:17Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2021-04-01T01:15:42Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-04-01T01:23:56Z palter: That is, of course, the C emulator which is a transliteration of the Alpha native VLM source code to C. It has some interesting issues. (One I remember from a client's site is that either the calendar clock or microsecond clock runs about 3 times real speed. Don't remember which one. But, TCP timeouts were messed up by it.) 2021-04-01T01:25:52Z wxie joined #lisp 2021-04-01T01:26:14Z countvaj` joined #lisp 2021-04-01T01:26:14Z palter: I would love to see Genera (and Open Genera and Portable Genera) released but JCMa hasn't answered my last email so I don't know why he won't. 2021-04-01T01:26:39Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-04-01T01:27:02Z White_Flame: right, I'm not porting that VLM, I'm rewriting from first principles. But it can give me an execution trace of what should be happening for reference, now that I can adjust its source and build 2021-04-01T01:27:15Z White_Flame: for a given test world 2021-04-01T01:28:03Z caoliver: JCMa is an interesting fellow to say the least. The license surrounding his web server was ummm... interesting. 2021-04-01T01:28:52Z caoliver gets a dog in the manger feeling. 2021-04-01T01:29:44Z palter: White_Flame - If you want an instruction trace of booting a world, I still have one. 2021-04-01T01:29:51Z palter: (It's 3.3GB) 2021-04-01T01:30:06Z White_Flame: it has to be the exact same world as mine, so I'm going to make my own 2021-04-01T01:30:51Z White_Flame: no clue if the early boot stuff has changed much, though 2021-04-01T01:31:29Z palter: It's probably from a world named fixed7.vlod. (It's from July 2016) 2021-04-01T01:31:56Z White_Flame: but yeah, I want to verify how & where I diverge from VLM and blow up 2021-04-01T01:32:20Z palter: I know what you mean. That's how I debugged the Intel and ARM ports. 2021-04-01T01:32:25Z terpri: fun factoid: according to my reading of the standard license header, as of 2018, the US federal government could unilaterally relicense most of the genera source code if they wanted, presumably due to the level of public funding 2021-04-01T01:32:33Z White_Flame: I'm now using a Genera-8-5-xlib-patched.vlod 2021-04-01T01:32:53Z palter: What's the date on the world load? 2021-04-01T01:33:27Z White_Flame: where would I find that? 2021-04-01T01:33:32Z terpri: hard to say whether that's more or less likely than the copyright owner (john c. mallery?) relicensing it though 2021-04-01T01:33:47Z palter: Of course, once sequence breaks start, the trace will diverge. 2021-04-01T01:34:35Z sp41 joined #lisp 2021-04-01T01:35:04Z caoliver: terpri was this via darpa? 2021-04-01T01:38:30Z semz joined #lisp 2021-04-01T01:38:30Z semz quit (Changing host) 2021-04-01T01:38:30Z semz joined #lisp 2021-04-01T01:39:52Z palter: This is the clause from the copyright notice that terpri was referencing. https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/TXUEulOs/ 2021-04-01T01:41:06Z terpri: caoliver, not sure if it's DARPA per se, but the clause refers to the National Reconnonaissance Office 2021-04-01T01:41:12Z caoliver: I just wondered about how the public funding came about. I was always a little miffed that RSA wasn't broadly available for public use given that taxpayers (via the Navy) funding the development. 2021-04-01T01:41:19Z terpri: Reconnaissance* 2021-04-01T01:41:46Z terpri: and https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/48/252.227-7014#b_2 is the relevant law, i believe 2021-04-01T01:41:47Z caoliver got a copy of TM-82 when he was in high school. 2021-04-01T01:42:31Z caoliver: Not that I was any sort of genius (I'm most certainly not), but the Martin Gardner article piqued my interest. 2021-04-01T01:43:24Z terpri: "Government purpose rights shall remain in effect for a period of five years unless a different period has been negotiated." symbolics apparently negotiated something like a *thirty year* restriction :p 2021-04-01T01:44:09Z caoliver: Evidently prior to 1991. 2021-04-01T01:44:12Z palter: This one is a bit more up-to-date I think. (Note the expiration date) https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/6pYRUnLn/ 2021-04-01T01:44:58Z caoliver: 2018 was a while ago unless I got dropped in the time machine yet again. 2021-04-01T01:47:43Z caoliver: I think the key language is "No restrictions apply after the expiration date shown above." 2021-04-01T01:47:49Z caoliver: But IANAL. 2021-04-01T01:48:37Z caoliver: That would also depend on the government having worlds absent of classified information. 2021-04-01T01:49:33Z caoliver really needs to attend to his pasta. BBL. 2021-04-01T01:51:21Z MightyJoe quit (Quit: I'm out!) 2021-04-01T01:52:21Z terpri: right, and "the Government shall have unlimited rights" after expiration. but whether they want to exercise those rights is a separate question 2021-04-01T01:52:29Z terpri: (IANAL either) 2021-04-01T01:54:15Z caoliver: Maybe I should have gone to law school rather than playing with math and computers. 2021-04-01T01:55:16Z caoliver: Probably not. I'm a very not people/politics sort of person. 2021-04-01T01:55:19Z terpri: hm, seems that you can only view relatively recent spending on usaspending.gov. but the army paid symbolics almost $600k between 2006 and 2011 (for onsite hardware and software support) so someone was still using it 2021-04-01T01:56:18Z terpri: (support + an opengenera license) 2021-04-01T01:56:19Z caoliver: It wouldn't surprise me. However I'd have assumed that they'd budge a port. 2021-04-01T01:56:31Z caoliver: s/budge/budget/ 2021-04-01T01:56:52Z igemnace joined #lisp 2021-04-01T01:57:08Z caoliver: Say Allegro (is that still a thing?) on a modern fast box. 2021-04-01T01:58:08Z caoliver: It'd be a hell of a lot cheaper than what was squandered on F-22 and F-35. 2021-04-01T01:58:18Z yonkunas joined #lisp 2021-04-01T01:59:50Z caoliver: Being a cheap ass, I'd do anything (assuming a ramen budget) with CCL or SBCL. 2021-04-01T02:03:19Z cyraxjoe joined #lisp 2021-04-01T02:03:24Z palter: Those dates are post Symbolics so the Army would've been contracting through David Schmidt. I know that around 2015, there was a DoD dictum to get off non-standard systems. It's why Dave contracted with me (through Clozure) to do the Intel port. 2021-04-01T02:04:41Z palter: There were a couple of clients left then as I recall. One used Genera just for development and deployed on Allegro, I think. The other ran their application as a service. 2021-04-01T02:04:58Z palter: Don't remember which one was doing work for the Army. (Might have been both) 2021-04-01T02:05:01Z indathrone joined #lisp 2021-04-01T02:05:28Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-01T02:05:32Z palter: There's still a client who uses Genera for development and deploys on Allegro for a commercail product. 2021-04-01T02:06:13Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-04-01T02:07:29Z judson_ joined #lisp 2021-04-01T02:09:47Z ikrabbe|2 joined #lisp 2021-04-01T02:12:06Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-01T02:12:23Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-04-01T02:12:41Z ikrabbe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-01T02:15:23Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-04-01T02:16:38Z terpri: i always wondered what those contracts were about. mystery solved :) 2021-04-01T02:17:15Z prxq_ joined #lisp 2021-04-01T02:17:40Z ldbeth: how's the behavior of INTERN related to READTABLE-CASE? 2021-04-01T02:19:00Z no-defun-allowed: From memory, they are not at all. 2021-04-01T02:19:32Z no-defun-allowed: For all strings S, (string= (symbol-name (intern S)) S) 2021-04-01T02:19:55Z ldbeth: clhs 22.1.3.3.2.1 2021-04-01T02:19:55Z specbot: Examples of Effect of Readtable Case on the Lisp Printer: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_accba.htm 2021-04-01T02:20:41Z prxq quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-01T02:20:46Z ldbeth: figured that's probably caused by the printer 2021-04-01T02:21:19Z CrazyEddy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-01T02:21:41Z no-defun-allowed: clhs intern 2021-04-01T02:21:42Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_intern.htm 2021-04-01T02:24:25Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-01T02:24:26Z fnord_ joined #lisp 2021-04-01T02:24:28Z fnord_ quit (Client Quit) 2021-04-01T02:25:19Z feminine joined #lisp 2021-04-01T02:25:56Z igemnace quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-01T02:28:14Z feminine quit (Changing host) 2021-04-01T02:28:14Z feminine joined #lisp 2021-04-01T02:28:37Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-04-01T02:31:35Z caoliver: That DoD dictum isn't surprising: What is surprising is that it wasn't issued sooner. 2021-04-01T02:33:26Z pranavats quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-04-01T02:33:37Z contrapunctus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-01T02:34:53Z pranavats joined #lisp 2021-04-01T02:37:04Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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2021-04-01T11:04:25Z jmercouris: Is there a portable way to do this? 2021-04-01T11:04:43Z luni joined #lisp 2021-04-01T11:04:45Z phoe: jmercouris: what do you mean, show? 2021-04-01T11:04:45Z no-defun-allowed: clhs compute-restarts 2021-04-01T11:04:45Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_comp_1.htm 2021-04-01T11:05:00Z luni left #lisp 2021-04-01T11:05:14Z no-defun-allowed: The example provides a text interface-based example for what you want. 2021-04-01T11:05:16Z phoe: like do what the debugger does, show a series of like [FOO] Perform a FOO operation." 2021-04-01T11:05:21Z phoe: sort of thing? 2021-04-01T11:06:00Z jmercouris: phoe: yes, exactly 2021-04-01T11:06:16Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-04-01T11:07:04Z phoe: because then what no-defun-allowed said - get a list of restarts available in the current dynenv this way via COMPUTE-RESTARTS, get restart names via RESTART-NAME, get restart reports via princ-to-stringing the restart objects, call them via INVOKE-RESTART-INTERACTIVELY after binding *query-io* in a proper way 2021-04-01T11:07:25Z jmercouris: Hm 2021-04-01T11:07:32Z phoe: ;; or y'know you can read my book instead 2021-04-01T11:07:40Z jmercouris: Double hm 2021-04-01T11:07:44Z phoe: you could take a look at the debugger of portable-condition-system as well 2021-04-01T11:07:55Z phoe: because this directly operates with restarts and displays them to the user 2021-04-01T11:08:06Z jmercouris: I see 2021-04-01T11:08:09Z phoe: s/with/on/ 2021-04-01T11:08:22Z phoe: https://github.com/phoe/portable-condition-system/blob/master/src/debugger.lisp 2021-04-01T11:08:47Z phoe: in particular DEFINE-COMMAND :RESTARTS and below 2021-04-01T11:08:48Z jmercouris: I see very useful 2021-04-01T11:08:51Z jmercouris: Thank you 2021-04-01T11:09:12Z phoe: no problem 2021-04-01T11:23:22Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-04-01T11:23:28Z ldbeth: good evening 2021-04-01T11:23:37Z phoe: hello 2021-04-01T11:24:33Z phoe: jmercouris: basically this sounds like you want to write your own Lisp debugger, which kind of makes sense because nyxt aims to be a Lisp environment 2021-04-01T11:24:40Z ldbeth: someone asked me if it is a good idea to modify *print-case* for readability 2021-04-01T11:25:05Z phoe: dynamically, or globally? 2021-04-01T11:25:51Z ldbeth: globally, he encountered the problem that setting *print-case* would cause trouble for cl-base64's macro 2021-04-01T11:26:06Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-01T11:26:27Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-04-01T11:26:36Z ldbeth: which uses (intern (format nil "~A" ... something 2021-04-01T11:26:43Z phoe: oh, yes 2021-04-01T11:27:08Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-01T11:27:14Z phoe: ;; I think that at least one of my own libraries is going to fall apart the same way if print-case is modified 2021-04-01T11:27:29Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-04-01T11:27:34Z phoe: ;; I need to verify this someday 2021-04-01T11:27:40Z jmercouris: phoe: yes, we are going that direction 2021-04-01T11:28:12Z mrchampion joined #lisp 2021-04-01T11:28:48Z phoe: I actually cannot see INTERN over FORMAT NIL in there 2021-04-01T11:29:02Z ldbeth: personally I feel IT IS NOT A BIG PROBLEAM READING UPPERCASED INDENTIFIERS. 2021-04-01T11:29:32Z phoe: what's the exact error you are getting? cl-base64 seems actually immune to this sorta error 2021-04-01T11:30:59Z ldbeth: he added (setf *print-case* :downcase) in his .sbclrc and using cl-base64-20201016-git 2021-04-01T11:32:10Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-04-01T11:32:46Z ldbeth: and it's acually loading another package complains "The function cl-base64:base64-string-to-usb8-array is undefined." 2021-04-01T11:34:31Z phoe: show me that another package 2021-04-01T11:35:00Z phoe: because cl-base64 seems to define symbols with upcased names, like, always 2021-04-01T11:39:10Z ldbeth: phoe: "crypto-shortcuts", in package nice-school 2021-04-01T11:40:25Z ldbeth: might need to empty fasl files first 2021-04-01T11:43:13Z ldbeth: probably nice-school is the package he's developing 2021-04-01T11:43:55Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2021-04-01T11:53:32Z rodriga joined #lisp 2021-04-01T12:05:31Z kevingal_ joined #lisp 2021-04-01T12:08:21Z kevingal quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-01T12:15:37Z Stanley00 quit 2021-04-01T12:16:35Z long4mud quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-01T12:18:09Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-04-01T12:22:33Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-01T12:23:29Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-01T12:23:58Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-04-01T12:25:49Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-01T12:29:37Z fourier joined #lisp 2021-04-01T12:34:54Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-01T12:35:19Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-04-01T12:39:41Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-01T12:40:09Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-04-01T12:50:58Z beach: Bike: How is work on Cleavir going? 2021-04-01T12:51:33Z Bike: think i'm going to have to work on trucler like i mentioned before i get much farther with it. 2021-04-01T12:51:55Z beach: That makes sense. 2021-04-01T12:52:49Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-04-01T12:57:26Z jmercouris: ferada: how do I add Gboxed types to cl-cffi-gtk? 2021-04-01T12:57:31Z jmercouris: such that get-g-boxed-foreign-info-for-gtype functions properly? 2021-04-01T12:57:52Z jmercouris: Ive tried to use the DEFINE-G-BOXED-* macros to no avail 2021-04-01T12:58:00Z jmercouris: perhaps I am not using them properly 2021-04-01T12:58:09Z jmercouris: http://dpaste.com/64J5BUCMJ 2021-04-01T13:01:27Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-04-01T13:03:00Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-01T13:03:22Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-04-01T13:03:54Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-04-01T13:04:23Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-01T13:05:09Z jmercouris: looking at the documentation here: https://webkitgtk.org/reference/webkit2gtk/stable/WebKitNavigationAction.html I cannot for the life of me figure out what the struct fields are 2021-04-01T13:05:45Z jmercouris: which makes me think that it should be defined via define-g-boxed-opaque 2021-04-01T13:05:53Z jmercouris: however, how to use this is incredibly unclear 2021-04-01T13:06:14Z gzj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-01T13:06:36Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-04-01T13:09:38Z OlCe joined #lisp 2021-04-01T13:10:41Z ferada: jmercouris: hi, ...boxed-opaque looks correct to me like you said and how to use it, just look at the existing cases, like gtk-widget-path for example, function parameters use (object (g-boxed-foreign gtk-widget-path)) e.g. 2021-04-01T13:13:02Z jmercouris: ferada: I see, thanks 2021-04-01T13:13:47Z jmercouris: you mean (g-boxed-foreign gtk-widget-path) for specializing my defcfun 2021-04-01T13:13:50Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-04-01T13:13:53Z jmercouris: why could i not just treat it as a pointer? 2021-04-01T13:14:08Z jmercouris: what is the point of wrapping in g-boxed when it is opaque? 2021-04-01T13:14:35Z ferada: you can pass raw pointers around, then you just have no idea what's in it 2021-04-01T13:14:48Z jmercouris: ferada: that's usually what I am doing 2021-04-01T13:14:52Z jmercouris: here is where the problem comes in 2021-04-01T13:15:07Z jmercouris: when you use g-signal-connect it tries to do some magic and convert the results into appropriate objects 2021-04-01T13:15:21Z jmercouris: let me show you what I mean 2021-04-01T13:16:45Z jmercouris: ferada: http://dpaste.com/77CSNHPE8 2021-04-01T13:17:46Z ferada: jmercouris: and what's the problem? 2021-04-01T13:17:53Z jmercouris: the problem is that "t" is passed somewhere 2021-04-01T13:17:59Z jmercouris: the result of my lambda 2021-04-01T13:18:02Z jmercouris: and cl-cffi-gtk loses its mind 2021-04-01T13:18:04Z jmercouris: let me show you a trace 2021-04-01T13:19:17Z jmercouris: http://dpaste.com/6R72G9TG2 2021-04-01T13:19:28Z jmercouris: ferada: ^ 2021-04-01T13:21:12Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-01T13:21:33Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-04-01T13:22:34Z ferada: jmercouris: that's this signal https://webkitgtk.org/reference/webkit2gtk/2.4.2/WebKitWebView.html#WebKitWebView-create ? 2021-04-01T13:22:46Z ferada: T isn't a valid return value anyway 2021-04-01T13:22:48Z jmercouris: ferada: correct 2021-04-01T13:22:56Z jmercouris: it isn't, that's true 2021-04-01T13:23:05Z ferada: so, return NIL or a widget 2021-04-01T13:23:14Z jmercouris: a good point, maybe NIL will help it survive 2021-04-01T13:23:26Z ferada: i can't find an example with return value gboolean right now, might be that it's not supported 2021-04-01T13:23:42Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-04-01T13:24:50Z jmercouris: wow, that worked 2021-04-01T13:24:56Z jmercouris: I would have /never/ thought 2021-04-01T13:25:09Z jmercouris: many of my assumptions have been now broken 2021-04-01T13:25:37Z jmercouris: strange, because I thought in other signal handlers I was returning incorrect values and it was handling it gracefully 2021-04-01T13:25:46Z jmercouris: maybe I was never doing that, and just imagined I was 2021-04-01T13:26:05Z jmercouris: thanks ferada 2021-04-01T13:26:39Z ferada: maybe, maybe not, it's a bit hard to search for this case since the return type isn't indicated in the lambdas unfortunately 2021-04-01T13:26:46Z ferada: not the greatest design i guess 2021-04-01T13:27:11Z ferada: np 2021-04-01T13:27:34Z ferada: let me know if you encounter other issues, i've seen the tickets, i just can't easily reproduce things at the moment 2021-04-01T13:27:43Z jmercouris: no problem, will do 2021-04-01T13:29:53Z daniel1302_ quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-04-01T13:30:01Z feminine quit (Quit: Reconnecting) 2021-04-01T13:30:26Z daniel1302 joined #lisp 2021-04-01T13:34:06Z warweasle joined #lisp 2021-04-01T13:42:19Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2021-04-01T13:45:46Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-01T13:47:24Z nicktick joined #lisp 2021-04-01T13:47:57Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-04-01T13:53:26Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-04-01T14:05:47Z Josh_2: Afternoon 2021-04-01T14:06:33Z beach: Hello Josh_2. 2021-04-01T14:14:36Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-04-01T14:23:27Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-01T14:24:50Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-04-01T14:31:03Z Kundry_W_ joined #lisp 2021-04-01T14:31:14Z pjb joined #lisp 2021-04-01T14:33:09Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-04-01T14:33:41Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-01T14:33:56Z Feldman quit (Client Quit) 2021-04-01T14:34:21Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-01T14:34:41Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-01T14:36:39Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-04-01T14:37:15Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp 2021-04-01T14:44:41Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-01T14:45:26Z Sheilong joined #lisp 2021-04-01T14:46:00Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp 2021-04-01T14:53:05Z VincentVega joined #lisp 2021-04-01T14:53:15Z VincentVega quit (Client Quit) 2021-04-01T14:57:15Z gzj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-01T14:57:36Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-04-01T15:04:09Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-04-01T15:05:17Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-01T15:05:38Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-04-01T15:21:06Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-01T15:23:53Z gzj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-01T15:24:08Z torbo joined #lisp 2021-04-01T15:31:30Z madage joined #lisp 2021-04-01T15:35:42Z ldbeth left #lisp 2021-04-01T15:39:26Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-01T15:43:56Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-04-01T15:46:47Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-04-01T15:47:06Z kevingal_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-01T15:56:04Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2021-04-01T16:04:26Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-01T16:07:41Z VincentVega joined #lisp 2021-04-01T16:12:59Z kevingal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-01T16:27:03Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-04-01T16:28:08Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-04-01T16:49:05Z zaquest quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-01T16:49:36Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-04-01T16:50:14Z gitgood joined #lisp 2021-04-01T16:56:57Z judson_ joined #lisp 2021-04-01T16:58:10Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-04-01T17:02:01Z rodriga: hmm is there a more active Lisp group? also has anybody here bet their career on Lisp/Clojure/functional? What projects and information would you guys recommend if you want to one day be a professional hacker building "compilers" and eDSLs. 2021-04-01T17:02:51Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-01T17:03:46Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-01T17:06:33Z hendursa1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-01T17:07:02Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-04-01T17:08:27Z Shinmera: I am betting my career on Lisp right this second. 2021-04-01T17:08:34Z Shinmera: and also previous seconds 2021-04-01T17:13:18Z Xach: rodriga: there is a discord lisp discussion channel that seems active, i don't know if it's more or less active than #lisp 2021-04-01T17:13:48Z Xach: rodriga: i think a number of people here write common lisp code as a career 2021-04-01T17:15:49Z sp41 joined #lisp 2021-04-01T17:17:16Z rodriga: sorry if this sounds like a dumb question but how would you get a job or internship in Lisp? seems here locally its not very popular. did you guys network by first getting remote open source projects, internships, etc...? i've read On Lisp & SCIP. 2021-04-01T17:17:47Z Shinmera: I am self-employed, so the hiring process was very easy :) 2021-04-01T17:19:00Z Xach: rodriga: i liked using lisp but it was not formally part of my programming job in the past. i used common lisp to prototype things quickly and to implement internal tools where the implementation language wasn't all that critical. i also wrote a lot of code and shared it as i made my own hobby projects in common lisp. i went to conferences and chatted and emailed with people using lisp. over time i got into 2021-04-01T17:19:05Z Xach: some jobs where lisp was the main thing. 2021-04-01T17:22:23Z Xach: I don't have advice for someone starting today, sorry - the world has changed a lot since i got started. I don't know if the same approach would work starting now. 2021-04-01T17:22:48Z gabc: Conferences for one is a big more awkward today :P 2021-04-01T17:23:11Z Cthulhux quit (Changing host) 2021-04-01T17:23:11Z Cthulhux joined #lisp 2021-04-01T17:23:33Z rodriga: are there remote conferences with a good amount of socializing? Hmm, I've made lots of projects but I never bothered to blog about them. Hmm I remember that in a few lines of code if you turned clojure code from parens into and
you could then style clojure code to look however you wanted without changing the underlying s-exprs. 2021-04-01T17:23:36Z Xach: When I was getting into learning Common Lisp, there were multiple annual international conferences, and many regional enthusiast meetings. It's really dropped off a lot since then. 2021-04-01T17:24:42Z alandipert: otoh, programmers have never been in higher demand, and information has never been as accessible 2021-04-01T17:26:06Z Shinmera: ELS is coming up soon though 2021-04-01T17:26:11Z rodriga: yeah, but it seems that a lot of the in demand jobs are for technology that won't last long 2021-04-01T17:27:59Z rodriga: ELS? 2021-04-01T17:28:36Z Shinmera: https://www.european-lisp-symposium.org 2021-04-01T17:30:36Z rodriga: after reading SCIP and On Lisp and thinking about weird things like modifying Eval or Macros, I'm think Lisp is the most powerful language, and its the easiest to change your program from doing one thing to another. 2021-04-01T17:31:34Z Xach: rodriga: keep reading, there's a lot more interesting stuff. 2021-04-01T17:31:45Z Shinmera: Power is a silly concept, but I'm glad you're enjoying your time. 2021-04-01T17:31:54Z Xach: Paradigms of AI Programming is an interesting lisp that will teach you some nice Common Lisp stuff 2021-04-01T17:32:26Z rodriga: i did skim that book already haha 2021-04-01T17:34:30Z rodriga: trying to think how can I network myself into an internship or entry-level lisp job? 2021-04-01T17:34:56Z wsinatra quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-01T17:35:09Z Shinmera: Contribute to open source, get your name out there. 2021-04-01T17:35:31Z Shinmera: Submit papers to ELS, help folks out in IRC here. 2021-04-01T17:36:14Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-04-01T17:36:51Z Shinmera: Wouldn't expect anything for years though unless you get super lucky or start a company yourself. 2021-04-01T17:37:45Z pjb: rodriga: send your resume to lisp companies. eg. https://www.ravenpack.com/careers/ 2021-04-01T17:39:29Z Josh_2: Xach: in vecto is there a way to compose colours or calculate the colours of overlaps? 2021-04-01T17:39:42Z rodriga: well do you guys have any interesting projects i can help with? There was this LightTable like plugin for emacs, and I was thinking if anybody finds those kind of environments productive (compared to Slime). 2021-04-01T17:41:19Z pjb: rodriga: take any CL project in gitlab or github and check the issues. Alternatively http://www.metamodular.net/Common-Lisp/suggested-projects.html 2021-04-01T17:41:55Z pjb: rodriga: you can also start from the systems in quicklisp, some need maintenance or documentation. 2021-04-01T17:42:12Z Shinmera: rodriga: Sure. I have a game engine https://github.com/shirakumo/trial and a UI toolkit project https://github.com/shirakumo/alloy that could use a lot of work. 2021-04-01T17:43:35Z jeosol quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-04-01T17:44:06Z rodriga: oh yeah i clicked that link and it says something about a library for writing GUIs, I was thinking what if you could take all your Lisp code functions and it could take the code and automatically create a (bad) GUI for scaffolding 2021-04-01T17:46:34Z rodriga: wait someone probably has already thought of that, rails creates scaffolds from your model, maybe they got the idea form somewhere else 2021-04-01T17:51:08Z rodriga: Shinmera: I wouldn't know where to start to learn your engine, hmm 2021-04-01T17:51:25Z Shinmera: Well, a tutorial is one of the things we're currently lacking :) 2021-04-01T17:51:52Z wsinatra quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-01T17:51:55Z Shinmera: The other devs and I hang out in #shirakumo on Freenode here to discuss the development of it and questions surrounding it, if you want to lurk. 2021-04-01T17:53:48Z frgo quit 2021-04-01T17:54:14Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-04-01T17:55:50Z rodriga: Shinmera: sou ieba nihonjin desuka? mae ni nihongo nourroku shiken N2 ni gougaku shitandesukedo... 2021-04-01T17:58:31Z Shinmera: 日本人じゃないですけどちょっと話します。名前は偶然ですよ。 2021-04-01T17:58:39Z Shinmera: Anyway, let's keep it to English here. 2021-04-01T17:59:10Z jeosol joined #lisp 2021-04-01T18:01:57Z Josh_2: Today I learned why its important to use (defvar ..) over defparameter 2021-04-01T18:02:19Z Josh_2: When I deleted some stored data for over 50 users 2021-04-01T18:02:31Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-04-01T18:02:32Z Josh_2: luckily I had it backed up 2021-04-01T18:03:19Z Josh_2: Well tbf if I hadn't made the variable an empty hash table then it would have overwritten by backup as well 2021-04-01T18:05:44Z rodriga: oh yeah in python, I once had a bug when a long class that redefined a method 2021-04-01T18:08:35Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-04-01T18:09:11Z grumble quit (Killed (Fuchs (♥ you))) 2021-04-01T18:09:48Z Josh_2: I love being saved by an (unless 2021-04-01T18:09:50Z grumble joined #lisp 2021-04-01T18:10:26Z edgar-rft: famous last words: (unless ... 2021-04-01T18:12:29Z semz: Is there a nice way to set *print-length* only for the representations in Slime? I don't want to set it globally but am rather sick of slowing Emacs down to a crawl whenever a returned list is large. 2021-04-01T18:12:41Z rodriga: oh yeah is Emacs sorf of like a Lisp OS like Smalltalk's Pharo? How hard is it to build a compatibility layer that can convet Emacls Lisp code to Common Lisp and Common Lisp code to Emacs Lisp? 2021-04-01T18:13:35Z jackdaniel: elisp has a package "imitating" common lisp 2021-04-01T18:15:13Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-01T18:16:14Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-04-01T18:16:21Z pjb: semz: yes. In swank. 2021-04-01T18:16:57Z pjb: semz: https://github.com/informatimago/rc/blob/master/swank.lisp 2021-04-01T18:17:43Z pjb: semz: this is my ~/.swank.lisp rc file. 2021-04-01T18:18:10Z sauvin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-01T18:18:19Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-04-01T18:18:27Z pjb: rodriga: there's an emacs-cl CL implementation targetting emacs lisp that has bit-rotten since GNU emacs has lexical bindings. You could update it. 2021-04-01T18:18:41Z pjb: rodriga: https://github.com/larsbrinkhoff/emacs-cl 2021-04-01T18:18:48Z pjb: fork, patch, send PR. 2021-04-01T18:19:56Z semz: pjb: neat! 2021-04-01T18:30:44Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-01T18:31:27Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-01T18:38:45Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-01T18:59:05Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-01T18:59:15Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-04-01T19:00:52Z rodriga: does lisp have something like haskell's papers? its a good way to learn new new cutting edge programming techniques. 2021-04-01T19:01:25Z Josh_2: cutting edge? seems to me the "cutting edge" is just recycled Lisp techniques 2021-04-01T19:01:32Z Josh_2: seems to be my impression 2021-04-01T19:03:45Z rodriga: where are these Lisp techniques written? 2021-04-01T19:03:55Z Josh_2: In the source code folks write 2021-04-01T19:05:08Z rodriga: but isn't Lisp source like an embedded DSL? trying to reverse engineer a DSL can be hard? 2021-04-01T19:05:19Z Josh_2: No 2021-04-01T19:05:37Z Josh_2: maybe in racket 2021-04-01T19:05:38Z rodriga: whats the best written lisp code in your opinion? 2021-04-01T19:05:56Z Josh_2: Gosh I don't know, maybe you should read PAIP 2021-04-01T19:06:24Z Josh_2: Or practical common lisp 2021-04-01T19:07:14Z Bike: most lisp source is not an embedded DSL, it's just code 2021-04-01T19:07:23Z Bike: most of the macros people define are pretty simple and easy to understand 2021-04-01T19:07:39Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-01T19:07:49Z Bike: things like LOOP that are there own language do exist, but they're not the majority of any program 2021-04-01T19:07:52Z Bike: their own* 2021-04-01T19:10:05Z rodriga: i see. 2021-04-01T19:14:16Z galex-713 quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. 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Anywhere.) 2021-04-02T07:39:18Z prxq joined #lisp 2021-04-02T08:04:16Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2021-04-02T08:04:47Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-04-02T08:05:46Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2021-04-02T08:06:36Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-04-02T08:08:41Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-02T08:08:43Z hendursa1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-02T08:09:04Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-04-02T08:09:33Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-02T08:11:52Z johnjay joined #lisp 2021-04-02T08:12:35Z OlCe joined #lisp 2021-04-02T08:19:52Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-04-02T08:21:13Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-04-02T08:33:06Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-02T08:37:07Z Major_Biscuit joined #lisp 2021-04-02T08:40:19Z nicktick joined #lisp 2021-04-02T08:46:08Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-02T08:47:38Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-04-02T08:48:30Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-02T08:48:38Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-04-02T08:51:06Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-04-02T08:53:20Z moon-child: are there guidelines about when to use rplaca/rplacd vs (setf (car/cdr))? 2021-04-02T08:54:14Z beach: Yes, never use the former. 2021-04-02T08:54:39Z moon-child: why? 2021-04-02T08:55:57Z flip214: convention, I guess - and because SETF is much more familiar 2021-04-02T08:56:03Z beach: They have no advantage, and they don't return the object being stored. 2021-04-02T08:56:57Z beach: RPLACA and RPLACD should be considered low-level functions to be used mainly by the person creating the Common Lisp system, just like SETQ. 2021-04-02T08:57:37Z nikolayclfx joined #lisp 2021-04-02T08:58:57Z beach: ... and SYMBOL-FUNCTION, and (SETF SYMBOL-FUNCTION) too. 2021-04-02T09:06:54Z minion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-02T09:06:54Z specbot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-02T09:10:48Z minion joined #lisp 2021-04-02T09:10:49Z specbot joined #lisp 2021-04-02T09:13:04Z srandon111 joined #lisp 2021-04-02T09:13:58Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-02T09:14:57Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-02T09:18:17Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-04-02T09:24:48Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-02T09:25:43Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-02T09:27:59Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-02T09:28:11Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-02T09:28:28Z gitgood joined #lisp 2021-04-02T09:28:33Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-02T09:31:40Z mrchampion quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-02T09:33:55Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-04-02T09:38:49Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-02T09:39:58Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2021-04-02T09:40:04Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2021-04-02T09:44:37Z Lycurgus quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-02T09:45:14Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-02T09:46:20Z mrchampion joined #lisp 2021-04-02T09:49:38Z gitgood quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-02T09:53:09Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-04-02T09:59:57Z xsperry joined #lisp 2021-04-02T10:00:06Z vegansbane6963 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-04-02T10:09:58Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-02T10:10:12Z waleee-cl joined #lisp 2021-04-02T10:10:39Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-02T10:12:32Z silasfox joined #lisp 2021-04-02T10:13:11Z gitgood joined #lisp 2021-04-02T10:16:53Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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(let ((cs (list (cons nil nil) (cons nil nil)))) (values (mapc #'rplaca cs '(1 2)) (mapc #'(setf cdr) '(44 55) cs))) #| --> ((1 . 44) (2 . 55)) ; (44 55) |# your choice. 2021-04-02T11:08:07Z no-defun-allowed: Nope, Clozure does not implement (setf cdr) as a function, and that is allowed somewhere in the standard. 2021-04-02T11:09:37Z no-defun-allowed: (setf getf) would most likely not be a function, for example, as it might push a new property into the place without modifying list structure. 2021-04-02T11:09:56Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-04-02T11:11:05Z pjb: moon-child: however, it looks like (function (setf car)) is not conforming: implementations could have no such function, and just hack setf, like for defstruct accessors. 2021-04-02T11:11:39Z leo_song_: https://common-lisp.net/ is dead? 2021-04-02T11:12:03Z phoe: DHCP issues 2021-04-02T11:12:04Z no-defun-allowed: pjb: Say something once, why say it again? 2021-04-02T11:12:11Z pjb: moon-child: https://termbin.com/27m4 ; so you can see that you have to use rplaca when you need a function. 2021-04-02T11:12:30Z long4mud quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-04-02T11:14:51Z leo_song_: :-( 2021-04-02T11:20:23Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-02T11:22:06Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-04-02T11:23:36Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Can thou please elaborate on that phrase, please, thank you. 2021-04-02T16:40:54Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell jcowan when he/she/it next speaks. 2021-04-02T16:43:03Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-02T16:43:27Z beach: Where did you see that phrase? A search did not find it. 2021-04-02T16:43:35Z beach: Maybe in some other channel? 2021-04-02T16:49:22Z andreyorst joined #lisp 2021-04-02T16:49:31Z zaquest quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-02T16:49:59Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-04-02T16:50:38Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-04-02T16:50:40Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2021-04-02T17:01:12Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-02T17:01:28Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-04-02T17:03:20Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-04-02T17:05:33Z mfiano: It was a couple days ago in ##Lisp. jcowan was unhappy with the Lisp community. 2021-04-02T17:11:04Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-04-02T17:11:18Z Nicolas88 joined #lisp 2021-04-02T17:12:11Z Nicolas88 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-02T17:12:51Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2021-04-02T17:13:18Z Nicolas00 joined #lisp 2021-04-02T17:18:51Z davros quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-02T17:24:08Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1) 2021-04-02T17:24:25Z curtosis quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. 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Currently, I'm trying to install Ulubis, and I get this backtrace: https://x0.at/URP.log 2021-04-02T19:03:29Z thomasb06: Any idea what went wrong? 2021-04-02T19:09:11Z minion quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-02T19:09:18Z specbot quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-02T19:14:15Z Bike: i'm not familiar with ulubis, but it's hard to imagine that log helping. did it really not even give you an error code? 2021-04-02T19:15:17Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-04-02T19:19:54Z thomasb06: apologies, doing several things at the same time 2021-04-02T19:20:20Z Bike: no need to apologize 2021-04-02T19:20:23Z thomasb06: where can I get an error code, when running ./ulubis? 2021-04-02T19:21:24Z thomasb06: it's a window manager so I should run it from console mode, but the only trace I get is in this file 2021-04-02T19:22:12Z Bike: https://github.com/malcolmstill/ulubis/blob/master/ulubis.lisp#L139-L141 looks like you're supposed to be getting a backtrace, but evidently not 2021-04-02T19:23:16Z Bike: print-backtrace prints to *debug-io* whereas that format will print to *standard-output*. maybe the log is only getting the standard output. 2021-04-02T19:24:23Z Bike: i guess you could try replacing the print-backtrace call with (let ((*debug-io* (make-two-way-stream *standard-input* *standard-output*))) (trivial-backtrace:print-backtrace e)), and then it will print the backtrace to standard output as well. 2021-04-02T19:24:49Z Bike: oh, or more simply (trivial-backtrace:print-backtrace e :output *standard-output*) 2021-04-02T19:25:12Z Bike: probably pass :verbose t as well 2021-04-02T19:27:05Z specbot joined #lisp 2021-04-02T19:27:07Z minion joined #lisp 2021-04-02T19:28:24Z thomasb06: ah, let me have a look. (it doesn't show but I'm on a sugar crash... had a huge patisserie few hours ago and obviously it was more sugary that what I'm used too) 2021-04-02T19:32:03Z vaporatorius quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-04-02T19:33:05Z cantstanya quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-02T19:34:29Z thomasb06: so I've put `(trivial-backtrace:print-backtrace e :output *standard-output* :verbose t)` and now I recompile 2021-04-02T19:35:03Z cantstanya joined #lisp 2021-04-02T19:38:57Z thomasb06: now the output is: https://x0.at/h9F.log 2021-04-02T19:40:27Z aindilis joined #lisp 2021-04-02T19:42:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: luis: one thing that would be really useful on macOS is support for the @executable_path, @loader_path and @rpath variables, although I think this would also need implementation-level changes 2021-04-02T19:43:11Z specbot quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-02T19:43:47Z minion quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-02T19:44:16Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2021-04-02T19:44:27Z specbot joined #lisp 2021-04-02T19:44:28Z minion joined #lisp 2021-04-02T19:44:32Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2021-04-02T20:02:31Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-02T20:05:45Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-04-02T20:06:59Z Bike: "not a typewriter". well, okay. 2021-04-02T20:09:19Z Bike: https://github.com/malcolmstill/ulubis/issues/62 well, someone else has the same problem. 2021-04-02T20:11:38Z Bike: https://github.com/malcolmstill/ulubis-drm-gbm/blob/master/ulubis-drm-gbm.lisp#L35-L39 i suppose it's one of these ioctl calls. 2021-04-02T20:12:05Z Bike: i have very little idea about graphics programming, let alone ulubis, so that's as far as i go 2021-04-02T20:13:12Z jcowan: I see I have been massively misinterpreted by several different people, and I hate that (Geek Answer Syndrome) 2021-04-02T20:13:48Z phoe: luis: congrats 2021-04-02T20:15:31Z Bike: you should report this logging bug along with your actual problem, btw 2021-04-02T20:18:41Z jcowan: So: I'm not annoyed with the Lisp community and never have been. What is more, someone else applied the phrase "idiotic mysticism" to Zen, not to Lisp, and I denied that Zen was in any way mystical. What I did do was compare certain Lispers (unnamed) to irascible Zen masters: they know a lot, but they have no patience with those who don't. 2021-04-02T20:19:47Z mason: jcowan: That was a random comment the other day. How is that still in anyone's mind? 2021-04-02T20:20:36Z jcowan: It only now came to my attention. "Need brooks no delay, yet late is better than never." 2021-04-02T20:21:04Z mason: kk 2021-04-02T20:21:05Z mfiano: I have been trying to decide if I should be offended by "some very useful help tends to be available only from rather grumpy people" 2021-04-02T20:23:19Z jcowan: "An insult is like a drink: it affects one only if it is accepted." If you don't think you meet that description, then I see no reason to be offended. I certainly did not have you in mind. 2021-04-02T20:24:30Z mfiano: I was thinking all the Lispers that I respect, moreso than myself. 2021-04-02T20:30:30Z fox_ joined #lisp 2021-04-02T20:32:17Z silasfox quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-04-02T20:33:26Z Thunderbi is now known as nckx 2021-04-02T20:33:41Z thomasb06: Bike cheers 2021-04-02T20:34:13Z wsinatra quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-02T20:34:49Z thomasb06: Bike on the Gitter channel, I posted both backtraces, maybe I'll get a few hint 2021-04-02T20:35:20Z thomasb06: as I don't know any of Lisp, I won't go that far at all... Thank you for your help 2021-04-02T20:36:00Z thomasb06: My graphics card is an Nvidia so maybe it's related 2021-04-02T20:36:09Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-02T20:46:24Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-04-02T20:46:53Z unimog quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-02T20:50:11Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-02T20:55:57Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-02T20:56:12Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-04-02T20:56:30Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-04-02T20:59:47Z ebrasca quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-02T21:01:17Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-02T21:02:42Z Josh_2: Xach: I have a lot of overlapping circles and I was hoping that when two overlap I could do a composite colour 2021-04-02T21:03:05Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-04-02T21:07:35Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2021-04-02T21:08:29Z fox_ is now known as silasfox 2021-04-02T21:10:18Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-04-02T21:18:51Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-04-02T21:20:56Z ebrasca quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-02T21:21:13Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2021-04-02T21:23:05Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-04-02T21:25:22Z Feldman: I was wondering, does anyone know *why* CL-CONT is so slow, on the technical level? 2021-04-02T21:28:06Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-04-02T21:28:15Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-04-02T21:28:36Z _death: I guess because it uses funcallable-instances, though I've not checked 2021-04-02T21:30:08Z Feldman: What exactly is a "funcallable instance", a bunch of lambda functions? 2021-04-02T21:30:17Z phoe: nope 2021-04-02T21:30:22Z phoe: it's a MOP term 2021-04-02T21:30:27Z phoe: it's a standard object that is funcallable 2021-04-02T21:31:25Z _death: Feldman: check make-funcallable in the source 2021-04-02T21:32:42Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-02T21:34:20Z Shinmera: even without that you basically need to wrap a ton of stuff in lambdas and thus create a lot of indirection and allocation that is otherwise not necessary. Without direct implementation support you can't do much better. 2021-04-02T21:34:46Z srandon111 quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-04-02T21:35:24Z _death: Feldman: not only that, it calls f/cc-function (a generic function) each time as well.. no dynamic-extent declaration for the &rest arg though maybe it's inferred 2021-04-02T21:36:05Z _death: you can do much better.. personally I like https://8c6794b6.github.io/posts/Delimited-continuations-with-monadic-functions-in-Common-Lisp.html 2021-04-02T21:36:07Z Feldman: _death: Not quite sure how dispatch is done for funcallable instances, but would implementing Robert Strandh's fast dispatch solve or help that? 2021-04-02T21:36:35Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-04-02T21:36:37Z phoe: it isn't 2021-04-02T21:36:37Z Bike: they don't dispatch, do they? 2021-04-02T21:36:44Z phoe: funcallable instances don't have dispatch by default 2021-04-02T21:36:54Z phoe: dispatching is a GF thing. 2021-04-02T21:36:59Z asarch joined #lisp 2021-04-02T21:37:02Z Bike: a funcallable instance is just a function with some other slots attach. it doesn't do any kind of dispatch unless you define it to do so. 2021-04-02T21:37:04Z phoe: by default, calling a funcallable instance just calls a standard lisp function 2021-04-02T21:37:07Z Bike: attached. 2021-04-02T21:37:16Z phoe: but what that function does, that's up to the programmer 2021-04-02T21:37:28Z Feldman: Oh right, why are they so slow then? lack of implementation optimisation? 2021-04-02T21:37:42Z phoe: are they slow? 2021-04-02T21:37:50Z Bike: well, death suggested they are 2021-04-02T21:37:50Z sjl joined #lisp 2021-04-02T21:38:06Z Bike: i'm not sure they are, though. depends on what cl-cont is doing. 2021-04-02T21:38:25Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-02T21:38:43Z Bike: i don't actually understand why a continuations system would involve them 2021-04-02T21:38:55Z silasfox quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-02T21:38:59Z _death: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/cl-cont/cl-cont/-/blob/master/src/special-transformers.lisp#L211 2021-04-02T21:39:15Z Feldman: I would've imagined if FIs weren't generic, they would be as fast as normal functions 2021-04-02T21:39:19Z Bike: okay, that definitely looks slow. 2021-04-02T21:39:20Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-04-02T21:39:53Z phoe: seems like a 10x overhead over normal functions 2021-04-02T21:40:21Z Bike: i mean, slow because every call does an apply of this other function, which i guess applies VALUES? 2021-04-02T21:40:26Z _death: Feldman: I think you can make some small changes that could make it much faster 2021-04-02T21:40:32Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2372#2372 2021-04-02T21:40:39Z Bike: values represents the final continuation i suppose 2021-04-02T21:41:00Z phoe: but given the sheer number of repetitions I seriously don't think that fin overhead is what makes things slow 2021-04-02T21:41:11Z Bike: phoe: huh, that's way worse than i'd expect... oh, well, actually sbcl is almost certainly going to inline your second lambda there 2021-04-02T21:41:20Z _death: before I also used arnesi continuations, which I don't think do that kind of thing 2021-04-02T21:41:23Z phoe: oh 2021-04-02T21:41:33Z phoe: I don't know how to tell it not to inline 2021-04-02T21:42:24Z _death: oh, looks like they use funcallable instances as well 2021-04-02T21:42:41Z Bike: defining them both as global functions declaimed notinline is one way, but ofc then you get a little bit of overhead from looking up the global 2021-04-02T21:42:50Z Bike: but it's the same for both so it's ok 2021-04-02T21:43:04Z phoe: oh right, that function call isn't inlined 2021-04-02T21:43:09Z phoe: it's optimized away altogether 2021-04-02T21:43:18Z Bike: tomato, tomato 2021-04-02T21:43:29Z Bike: i did not think that through. 2021-04-02T21:43:31Z phoe: okay, I have no idea how to benchmark that 2021-04-02T21:43:38Z phoe: too late for me to think properly 2021-04-02T21:43:49Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-02T21:44:08Z Bike: anyway, it looks like this other stuff cl-cont is doing is going to be slow regardless of how instances work. 2021-04-02T21:44:43Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-04-02T21:44:53Z Feldman: I'm asking because I was thinking about a tagbody (and possibly symbol-macro) based approach that would avoid wrapping stuff in lambda (they would be wrapped in tagbodies instead, which I assume are lighter) 2021-04-02T21:46:26Z Bike: worth a shot. probably hard to do it correctly in general, tho. 2021-04-02T21:46:31Z luis: fiddlerwoaroof: maybe my next computer will be a mac again, but right now I don't have any macs (not sure if the powerbook still boots :D). Last one got stolen a few years back. 2021-04-02T21:48:00Z _death: Feldman: just removing that f/cc-function call would likely make it much faster (funcallable-standard-instance-access?) 2021-04-02T21:49:03Z pjb: My next computer was a NeXT Computer :-) 2021-04-02T21:51:48Z Feldman: _death: yeah I saw that and was like ??, I suppose FGF would actually help there!, still I wonder why the overhead is 10× for funcallable instances on SBCL in general... 2021-04-02T21:52:07Z _death: Feldman: I'm guessing for the funcallable-instance-function simply having (apply function #'values args) will do.. if the function slot does not change 2021-04-02T21:52:08Z Bike: it's not. phoe's benchmark does not account for an optimization. 2021-04-02T21:52:18Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 28.0.50)) 2021-04-02T21:52:54Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-02T21:53:23Z _death: Feldman: in short, it's slow because no one worked on making it faster ;) 2021-04-02T21:53:45Z Bike: i tried making them global and the funcallable instance is called pretty much exactly as quickly as a regular function. 2021-04-02T21:54:11Z Bike: ten million calls in 36 ms. it's fine. 2021-04-02T21:54:22Z _death: Bike: that's good to hear 2021-04-02T21:54:52Z Feldman: That's more reassuring 2021-04-02T21:55:17Z Bike: luckily, death has identified several other horrible efficiency issues to gasp in distress at 2021-04-02T21:57:07Z Bike: seems like some other stuff will get screwed up too, here. if every lambda expression is made into one of these funcallable things, that's going to inhibit a lot of normal compiler optimizations 2021-04-02T21:57:39Z Bike: i don't see anything that sets the f/cc-function, at least? 2021-04-02T21:58:12Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-04-02T21:59:05Z _death: Bike: me neither.. there's use of the reader, and that can turn into f-i-s-a or something.. 2021-04-02T21:59:18Z Bike: or just have the instance function close over it 2021-04-02T21:59:37Z _death: Bike: yeah, I mean in fdesignator-to-function/cc 2021-04-02T21:59:53Z Bike: oh i see 2021-04-02T22:03:14Z asarch: This is a meme about how hard a programming language could be. What is "The Lambda Tessaract"? Is it related to Common Lisp? https://pasteboard.co/JVwyaeU.jpg 2021-04-02T22:03:43Z Bike: asarch: probably some kind of reference to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda_cube 2021-04-02T22:03:44Z Helmholtz joined #lisp 2021-04-02T22:04:17Z Bike: i guess you could add subtyping as another dimension to get a tesseract 2021-04-02T22:06:07Z surabax quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-02T22:06:13Z pve quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-04-02T22:07:13Z akoana joined #lisp 2021-04-02T22:07:39Z Bike: so basically, no 2021-04-02T22:07:48Z asarch: ? 2021-04-02T22:07:58Z asarch: I mean, Oh 2021-04-02T22:08:06Z asarch: Yeah, yeah 2021-04-02T22:08:09Z asarch: Thank you Bike 2021-04-02T22:08:13Z asarch: Thank you very much :-) 2021-04-02T22:08:24Z Bike: happy to be of assistance 2021-04-02T22:09:52Z asarch: I owe you some beers :-) 2021-04-02T22:13:11Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-02T22:14:11Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-02T22:17:27Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-02T22:18:39Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-02T22:20:04Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-02T22:22:09Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-02T22:24:05Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-04-02T22:32:36Z rgherdt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-02T22:33:00Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2021-04-02T22:37:44Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2021-04-03T02:58:03Z thermo joined #lisp 2021-04-03T02:58:22Z raeda quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-03T03:02:02Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2021-04-03T03:05:55Z abhixec joined #lisp 2021-04-03T03:07:37Z vtomole joined #lisp 2021-04-03T03:10:52Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-04-03T03:16:15Z charles`: Hi beach. 2021-04-03T03:16:30Z charles`: Is there any reason why quicklisp would not prioritize local-projects? 2021-04-03T03:16:55Z no-defun-allowed: It always has for me. 2021-04-03T03:17:36Z charles`: It has for me too, but in this one situation, it continues to pull form latest quicklisp release 2021-04-03T03:18:42Z loke[m]1: charles` you can try to delete system-index.txt 2021-04-03T03:19:55Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-04-03T03:20:44Z charles`: wow, amazing! much thanks 2021-04-03T03:22:48Z thermo: i'm using sbcl, and i'm struggling to diagnose a slow OOM. i was hoping to get some related info by setting sb-kernel:gc-logfile and inspecting the output --- but nothing seems to be being written. are there further flags i'm meant to set? 2021-04-03T03:24:21Z beach: What is "OOM"? 2021-04-03T03:24:32Z thermo: out of memory 2021-04-03T03:24:39Z beach: Ah, OK. 2021-04-03T03:28:27Z thermo: i'd also be happy to just hear generic tips about diagnosing memory problems. if there's a way to see statistics what's still alive and where it was allocated, that'd be amazing 2021-04-03T03:31:15Z no-defun-allowed: If you break and evaluate (room t), SBCL provides a list of object types which have instances which occupy the most memory. 2021-04-03T03:46:19Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-03T03:48:04Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-04-03T03:48:22Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-03T03:49:00Z charles`: Does anyone know of special variables not behaving properly on ABCL? 2021-04-03T03:50:36Z beach: Are you sure the behavior is ABCL specific? 2021-04-03T03:51:08Z no-defun-allowed: How are they misbehaving? 2021-04-03T03:52:44Z marusich joined #lisp 2021-04-03T04:06:08Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-04-03T04:06:37Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-03T04:10:06Z charles`: beach, no-defun-allowed: I'm not sure 😁. I would really appreciate a you taking a look. It works perfectly on sbcl. Let me write a test that displays what is wrong. Then I will share a link. 2021-04-03T04:50:26Z charles`: Well, I managed to figure it out on my own. I'm sorry for possibly blaming ABCL. 2021-04-03T04:53:47Z beach: Congratulations! 2021-04-03T04:55:19Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-04-03T04:57:37Z spongiforma joined #lisp 2021-04-03T04:57:39Z charles`: Are you working on anything cool today? 2021-04-03T04:58:43Z beach: minion: Please tell charles` about SICL. 2021-04-03T04:58:44Z minion: charles`: SICL: SICL is a (perhaps futile) attempt to re-implement Common Lisp from scratch, hopefully using improved programming and bootstrapping techniques. See https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL 2021-04-03T05:00:48Z charles`: I know about it, I just mean specifically 2021-04-03T05:01:05Z beach: Register allocation. 2021-04-03T05:01:17Z beach: I invented what I think is a new technique. 2021-04-03T05:02:00Z charles`: that would be when you need to do some operations, how to decide which registers to put the data in? 2021-04-03T05:02:20Z beach: It is based on the OPT (imaginary) paging algorithm in that it estimates the distance to the next use of lexical variables, and when it needs to spill, it spills the one with the greatest estimated distance. 2021-04-03T05:02:45Z beach: More like deciding which register to spill to the stack when there are not enough of them. 2021-04-03T05:11:34Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-04-03T05:15:44Z beach: Registers are typically grouped into (overlapping) categories like general-purpose, caller saves, callee saves, floating point. Usually, any register in the right category will do for an operation. 2021-04-03T05:15:45Z beach: But when there are not enough registers, but you need for a lexical variable to be in a register even though right now it is not, you need to "steal" a register from some other lexical variable. Performance depends crucially on that choice. 2021-04-03T05:16:38Z beach: If you steal a register from a lexical variable that is going to be needed in a register fairly soon, you waste load/store operations. 2021-04-03T05:17:12Z beach: charles`: Does that make sense? 2021-04-03T05:17:17Z charles`: Sure does 2021-04-03T05:19:30Z spongiforma quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-03T05:19:49Z spongiforma joined #lisp 2021-04-03T05:20:27Z spongiforma left #lisp 2021-04-03T05:22:18Z charles`: When you are doing this stuff with registers are you still writing it in Lisp? 2021-04-03T05:23:10Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, all of the compiler is written in Lisp. (This is also the case for SBCL and Clozure at least.) 2021-04-03T05:24:34Z DeLargement joined #lisp 2021-04-03T05:27:04Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-04-03T05:27:12Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-04-03T05:32:53Z charles`: I know that is the idea, but I just can't wrap my head around how you would manipulate registers like that. 2021-04-03T05:33:07Z charles`: without actually programming assembly 2021-04-03T05:34:32Z aeth: Effectively, via custom "inline assembly" except it's syntactically just s-expressions so it's not really "inline assembly". 2021-04-03T05:34:40Z seok joined #lisp 2021-04-03T05:34:43Z beach: Oh, you write a "code generator" in Common Lisp. You turn the Common Lisp code into machine code, and the program doing the turning is just another Common Lisp program. It is that program that inspects the instructions that are needed and makes decisions about what registers to use. 2021-04-03T05:34:55Z no-defun-allowed: You generate assembly in the end with any compiler. But the code manipulating the assembly is written in Common Lisp, yes. 2021-04-03T05:35:22Z beach: charles`: The decisions are made at compile time, not at run time. 2021-04-03T05:35:25Z seok: anyone else experiencing high latency with winhttp 2021-04-03T05:37:04Z charles`: hmm, so even though you aren't writing a compiler in assembly, there is some assembly written as output (maybe in a string). I got that it is at compile time. 2021-04-03T05:37:14Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-04-03T05:38:34Z no-defun-allowed: Close, but the output is usually machine code, as a vector of bytes. 2021-04-03T05:39:19Z no-defun-allowed remembers "assembly" is the text form of machine code with labels and instruction names. Oops. 2021-04-03T05:40:22Z beach: charles`: As no-defun-allowed says, there is no particular reason for a compiler to generate assembly code. Assembly code was invented so that humans would have less trouble writing machine code. But a compiler does not need that human-friendly aspects that assembly provides. 2021-04-03T05:40:24Z charles`: sure, of course. 2021-04-03T05:40:54Z White_Flame: compilers have IRs 2021-04-03T05:41:20Z White_Flame: and "labels" as pointers etc 2021-04-03T05:41:45Z White_Flame: so one could consider such a representation to be very comparable to assembly 2021-04-03T05:42:13Z White_Flame: (s/pointers/references/ when written in lisp, of course) 2021-04-03T05:43:19Z moon-child: White_Flame: for the assembly representation, 'label' is more useful because it enforces an ordering, which you need to compute offsets (and decide when to generate short jumps, for supported platforms) 2021-04-03T05:44:12Z no-defun-allowed: I had generated acceptable assembly output from Cleavir's LIR once (which was used to make verifying it by eyeball somewhat easier). 2021-04-03T05:45:07Z White_Flame: moon-child: I mean a direct reference from 1 instruction's IR object to another 2021-04-03T05:45:11Z nicktick joined #lisp 2021-04-03T05:45:25Z White_Flame: certainly that form can be used to calculate relative offsets just the same 2021-04-03T05:53:28Z abhixec quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-04-03T06:01:02Z nicktick quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2021-04-03T06:15:10Z nicktick joined #lisp 2021-04-03T06:17:22Z charles`: Could someone help me understand how complex asdf are supposed to work. Ones with multiple systems defined in a single file, and stuff like cl-unicode/base 2021-04-03T06:18:07Z charles`: Why aren't they each in their own .asd file in their own directory? 2021-04-03T06:18:14Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-04-03T06:25:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: charles`: I tend to find it's nice to group related systems into a single .asd 2021-04-03T06:26:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: ASDF now has some logic to complain if the system names don't follow a specified format, though 2021-04-03T06:26:05Z White_Flame: probably because they're intimately related. 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Good luck The more the merrier, right? We decided to mash two of the best cryptosytems together for the best product. Our new encryption scheme is up and running and this time it is unbreakable! To prove that, we have also released its source code and a test center where you can test it out! host: 139.59.178.146:31817 (flag is located on the server) https 2021-04-03T13:34:05Z ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 2021-04-03T13:34:08Z Xach has set mode +b *!*perdent@192.145.118.* 2021-04-03T13:34:12Z perdent1 [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has been kicked from #lisp by Xach (no) 2021-04-03T13:34:19Z Xach has set mode -o Xach 2021-04-03T13:34:22Z Lycurgus: ty 2021-04-03T13:36:25Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-04-03T13:38:24Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-03T13:38:42Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-03T13:40:49Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-03T13:41:09Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2021-04-03T13:41:34Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-03T13:41:40Z Josh_2: Good afternoon 2021-04-03T13:46:58Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-03T13:47:10Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-03T13:47:35Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Activated osicat's travis cronjob so that hopefully this sort of things gets caught before it reaches Quicklisp next time. thanks. 2021-04-03T14:49:46Z moshes quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-03T14:50:08Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-04-03T14:50:21Z moshes` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-03T14:50:59Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2021-04-03T21:03:03Z kenran quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-03T21:03:21Z slyrus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-03T21:03:36Z jmercouris: But we’ll never known what this unbreakable crypto scheme is! 2021-04-03T21:03:42Z jmercouris: Aren’t you dying to know? 2021-04-03T21:03:55Z jmercouris: /s 2021-04-03T21:07:44Z minion joined #lisp 2021-04-03T21:07:46Z specbot joined #lisp 2021-04-03T21:09:10Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-03T21:09:56Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp 2021-04-03T21:15:06Z indathrone joined #lisp 2021-04-03T21:23:18Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-04-03T21:28:34Z aeth: Isn't unbreakable crypto scheme on-topic in #scheme not here? 2021-04-03T21:28:44Z jcowan snickers 2021-04-03T21:28:46Z akoana joined #lisp 2021-04-03T21:29:40Z aeth: jcowan: and people still wouldn't use it for crypto, because of the parentheses 2021-04-03T21:29:43Z jcowan: I always have to search for [scheme language] or [scheme programming] on Google because of this issue. SCHMER would have been a much better name 2021-04-03T21:30:04Z jcowan: given the six-letter Maclisp restriction 2021-04-03T21:30:19Z aap: not maclisp, its 2021-04-03T21:30:56Z jcowan: As for the unbreakable crypto scheme, it is one-time tape/pad (xor each bit with a truly random bit, which must be available at both ends). Of course the key distribution problem is vicious. 2021-04-03T21:32:47Z Odin-: For the latter, see Project Venona. 2021-04-03T21:34:13Z landakram quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-04-03T21:34:35Z aeth: aap: you have defeated me in alphabetic sorting! 2021-04-03T21:34:36Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-04-03T21:34:45Z aap: aeth: sorry :) 2021-04-03T21:36:51Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-03T21:36:59Z jcowan: aap: What do you mean by "not maclisp, its"? 2021-04-03T21:37:35Z aap: i mean the 6 char restriction is one of ITS, not maclisp 2021-04-03T21:37:40Z Odin-: jcowan: The restriction didn't come from maclisp, but ITS. 2021-04-03T21:37:56Z jcowan: Ah, true. 2021-04-03T21:38:34Z jcowan: I cut my teeth on OS/8, which was 8+2 with no hierarchy 2021-04-03T21:38:42Z pjb: Well, it wasn't really a restriction, it was an optimization. Implemented in LISP 1. You can see it in the sources of LISP 1.5. 2021-04-03T21:39:30Z pjb: Basically, 36-bit hardware, 6-bit characters. Strings were represented using lists of words containing packed 6-character. 2021-04-03T21:39:42Z aap: ITS filenames are literally 6 + 6 2021-04-03T21:39:46Z pjb: So if you used more than 6-character symbols, they used more than one word. 2021-04-03T21:39:56Z aap: usually filename + extension 2021-04-03T21:40:18Z aap: so it would have been extremely unusual to call something by a name longer than 6 chars 2021-04-03T21:40:39Z pjb: unix too was developped on such a system (18-bit words), hence creat and similar function names. 2021-04-03T21:40:40Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2021-04-03T21:41:01Z aap: pdp-7 unix used 2 chars per word 2021-04-03T21:41:11Z pjb: 9-bit chars? 2021-04-03T21:41:14Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 28.0.50)) 2021-04-03T21:41:17Z aap: no, ascii 2021-04-03T21:41:26Z aap: so, yes, i guess 2021-04-03T21:41:29Z aap: but still just ascii 2021-04-03T21:41:41Z aap: ITS used sixbit 2021-04-03T21:41:54Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-03T21:42:45Z motersen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-03T21:43:10Z pjb: That said, indeed, one could wish more people used more unique names. I liked IBM naming scheme. Like IEBFR14; there's no ambiguity. 2021-04-03T21:43:32Z pjb: On the other hand, try to search for "true"… 2021-04-03T21:44:01Z pjb: You need to add eg. true man page for some semblance of uniqueness and specificity. 2021-04-03T21:44:26Z aap: does an empty file need a manpage? :) 2021-04-03T21:44:33Z minion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-03T21:44:34Z specbot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-03T21:44:40Z aap: i guess it's no longer an empty file these days... 2021-04-03T21:45:08Z pjb: aap: the story of true matches the story of iebfr14. You'd be surprised by the commit list. 2021-04-03T21:45:23Z aap: ah 2021-04-03T21:45:28Z pve quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-04-03T21:45:50Z pjb: https://github.com/coreutils/coreutils/commits/master/src/true.c 2021-04-03T21:45:58Z motersen joined #lisp 2021-04-03T21:46:11Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-03T21:46:20Z minion joined #lisp 2021-04-03T21:46:20Z specbot joined #lisp 2021-04-03T21:46:21Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-04-03T21:47:23Z aap: pjb: disgusting 2021-04-03T21:47:28Z aap: true used to be an empty file 2021-04-03T21:48:23Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-03T21:48:55Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-04-03T21:50:35Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-03T21:59:10Z h4ck3r9696 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-04-03T22:01:16Z hypercube quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-04-03T22:08:21Z nckx is now known as jorts 2021-04-03T22:11:14Z kevingal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-03T22:12:02Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-03T22:12:55Z hypercube joined #lisp 2021-04-03T22:14:02Z ramHero joined #lisp 2021-04-03T22:16:52Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-03T22:17:30Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-03T22:19:33Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-04-03T22:20:34Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-04-03T22:21:46Z pjb: aap: an empty file was clearly a bug for true(1)… 2021-04-03T22:22:04Z aap: is that so? 2021-04-03T22:22:29Z phoe: why are we discussing true(1) again 2021-04-03T22:22:46Z White_Flame: 2021-04-03T22:23:43Z aap: something about file names 2021-04-03T22:23:45Z pjb: phoe: naming schemes iebfr14 vs true 2021-04-03T22:25:01Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-03T22:29:05Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-03T22:37:51Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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BUt Crispin really was a PDP-10 programmer 2021-04-03T23:32:12Z aap: oh i didn't even realize it was from him 2021-04-03T23:32:23Z jcowan: UTF-18 should be replaced by UTF-18+, which would represent planes 0,1,2,3 instead of 0,1,F,10 2021-04-03T23:34:39Z jcowan: Gotta love this: "We are now in the process of implementing support for nonet-based text files and automated transformation between septet, octet, and nonet textual data." 2021-04-03T23:34:59Z aap: i'm not even sure whether this is a joke 2021-04-03T23:35:03Z jorts is now known as nckx 2021-04-03T23:35:10Z aap: they're still using pdp-10s at XKL 2021-04-03T23:35:11Z aeth: UTF-18+ sounds like a media rating scheme in some random country. 2021-04-03T23:35:22Z aap: although i hear they're using a custom OS these days 2021-04-03T23:36:56Z jcowan: Compuserve ran a modified TOPS-10 for a very long time, which is why Compuserve emails were 7xxxx,xxxx@compuserve.co,m 2021-04-03T23:38:57Z jcowan: I also devised UTF-6, an almost upward compatible extension of Sixbit, but I didnt write an RFC, so I've forgotten the details 2021-04-03T23:39:28Z aeth: What Common Lisp do people here use for PDP-10s? 2021-04-03T23:39:44Z aap: no common lisps unfortunately. but maclisp! 2021-04-03T23:40:47Z aap: you can all come to #pdp-10 if you want :) 2021-04-03T23:42:02Z aeth: But why would I run a PDP VM when I could just run a Windows 98 VM? 2021-04-03T23:42:18Z aap: style points 2021-04-03T23:43:31Z aeth: I wonder if SBCL 0.6.8 runs on Windows 98 2021-04-03T23:44:08Z aap: actually implementing a common lisp for PDP-10 would be interesting 2021-04-03T23:44:15Z aeth: (hmm, 0.6.8 is the oldest tagged version... SBCL news on the website goes back to 0.6.0, though) 2021-04-03T23:45:37Z jcowan: The general idea is to preempt 077, Del in ECMA-1, to show that a non-Sixbit character has been encoded in the general style of UTF-8 2021-04-03T23:46:00Z jcowan: https://www.ecma-international.org/wp-content/uploads/ECMA-1_1st_edition_march_1963.pdf 2021-04-03T23:46:02Z aap: so utf-radix50 when? 2021-04-03T23:46:13Z jcowan: NEVER 2021-04-03T23:46:39Z jcowan: I did use to assign 16-bit magic numbers for binary data using RADIX50, though 2021-04-03T23:46:59Z moon-child: jcowan: sounds like it loses the big advantage of utf8, which is that you can always identify continuation bytes (sextets?) 2021-04-03T23:47:22Z moon-child: (though there may not be very much you can do about that ...) 2021-04-03T23:47:22Z jcowan: Yes. Perhaps it's more like SRFI-7 2021-04-03T23:49:43Z jcowan: Ah, no, what it preempts is SI and SO, so because there are always both you can identify sequences. 2021-04-03T23:50:28Z moon-child: ah, cool 2021-04-03T23:51:20Z jcowan: buut it is less bounded than UTF-8 2021-04-03T23:55:56Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-03T23:56:42Z jeosol quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-04T00:00:29Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-04T00:04:09Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-04-04T00:17:00Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2021-04-04T00:21:21Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-04T00:23:46Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-04-04T00:26:59Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2021-04-04T00:28:26Z cods quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-04T00:28:41Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-04T00:28:42Z cods joined #lisp 2021-04-04T00:30:07Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-04-04T00:32:05Z jcowan: It should be possible to run CLISP using one of the several C compilers avaiilable for TOPS-10/20. 2021-04-04T00:32:21Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-04T00:32:25Z jcowan: JIT is of coourse another story altogether 2021-04-04T00:32:35Z jcowan: (or native-code AOT) 2021-04-04T00:36:27Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-04T00:41:03Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-04T00:41:25Z sxmx quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-04-04T00:49:16Z karlosz quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-04T00:56:11Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-04T00:58:01Z sxmx joined #lisp 2021-04-04T01:09:18Z Aurora_iz_kosmos joined #lisp 2021-04-04T01:09:27Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-04-04T01:09:58Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-04-04T01:10:02Z Aurora_iz_kosmos is now known as Aurora_v_kosmose 2021-04-04T01:20:43Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-04-04T01:22:33Z moshes joined #lisp 2021-04-04T01:23:27Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-04-04T01:24:59Z adam4567 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-04-04T01:31:49Z indathrone quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-04T01:37:07Z semz joined #lisp 2021-04-04T01:39:29Z logand`` joined #lisp 2021-04-04T01:41:26Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-04-04T01:43:02Z logand` quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-04T01:44:59Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-04T01:47:40Z slyrus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-04T01:50:26Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-04T01:51:28Z DeLargement joined #lisp 2021-04-04T01:54:49Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-04T02:03:43Z ikrabbe|2 joined #lisp 2021-04-04T02:06:41Z ikrabbe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-04T02:08:34Z monkey__ joined #lisp 2021-04-04T02:10:28Z klltkr quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2021-04-04T11:16:11Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-04T11:20:52Z engblom quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-04T11:23:24Z DeLargement quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-04T11:38:29Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-04-04T11:40:53Z DeLargement joined #lisp 2021-04-04T11:46:28Z seok joined #lisp 2021-04-04T11:46:43Z seok: any recommendations on a reference for format directives ? 2021-04-04T11:47:10Z Shinmera: clhs 22.3 2021-04-04T11:47:10Z specbot: Formatted Output: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_c.htm 2021-04-04T11:47:44Z seok: eh I know this one, looking for a nice card on one page xd 2021-04-04T11:48:36Z seok: Ah it's ok I'll use this http://clqr.boundp.org/clqr-letter-consec.pdf 2021-04-04T11:48:37Z seok: ty !' 2021-04-04T11:57:22Z Inoperable quit (Quit: All your buffer are belong to us!) 2021-04-04T11:59:03Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-04T12:00:10Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2021-04-04T12:01:14Z Inoperable joined #lisp 2021-04-04T12:02:51Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-04T12:03:45Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-04T12:07:52Z gj quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-04-04T12:18:24Z jcowan: gak, a 56-page "quick reference" 2021-04-04T12:21:28Z semz: CL is a big boy 2021-04-04T12:22:26Z semz: it's rare that people go for completeness with these refereces though, nice to see 2021-04-04T12:22:54Z beach: What makes you think Common Lisp is male? 2021-04-04T12:25:37Z no-defun-allowed: Provided that seeking for a feature is relatively fast (hopefully with sublinear search complexity), a reference could be large and quick. 2021-04-04T12:25:49Z semz: I was going to reach for "lisping (the impediment) is more common in males" 2021-04-04T12:25:51Z semz: but it turns out there is no difference 2021-04-04T12:28:19Z no-defun-allowed: It would be about as creative as the joke I decided to scrap about gendering based on paren/bracket shape. 2021-04-04T12:29:51Z no-defun-allowed: But "big boy" is more common than "big girl" or "big child" or so on, possibly due to alliteration. 2021-04-04T12:30:17Z beach: So "great girl" then? 2021-04-04T12:31:22Z no-defun-allowed: Now that you mention it, I haven't a clue. Human languages are like that. 2021-04-04T12:35:52Z jcowan: I agree about "apt alliteration's artful aid", but I think it's more about gendering things masculine by default, even in natural-gender languages like English 2021-04-04T12:35:54Z curtosis joined #lisp 2021-04-04T12:38:17Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-04T12:43:00Z madage quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-04T12:43:13Z madage joined #lisp 2021-04-04T12:44:00Z Nilby: Common Lisp is female becuase it take the seed of my idea and turns it into a living thing, but it's male becuase it fucks me over every day while forcing me to do menial labor for free, but it's non-gendered because it's just a programming language specification. 2021-04-04T12:47:03Z lotuseater: like that 2021-04-04T12:52:04Z curtosis quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. 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Though I would have exactly liked to have %p, since there's no portable way currently to get the object identifier without doing weird stuff with dissecting print-unreadable-object's output. 2021-04-04T13:17:26Z splittist: Shinmera: exactly what I was looking for. trivial-identity awaits... 2021-04-04T13:19:20Z ikrabbe|2 is now known as ikrabbe 2021-04-04T13:20:17Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-04-04T13:23:31Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-04-04T13:23:32Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-04T13:23:56Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-04T13:25:57Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-04T13:30:53Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-04-04T13:32:13Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-04-04T13:34:05Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2021-04-04T13:34:06Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-04T13:34:12Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-04T13:34:12Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-04T13:34:31Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-04T13:35:07Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-04T13:35:56Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-04T13:42:14Z phantomics joined #lisp 2021-04-04T13:43:23Z supercoven joined #lisp 2021-04-04T13:44:06Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-04T13:44:15Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-04T13:48:47Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-04T13:54:18Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-04-04T13:54:23Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-04T13:55:13Z jello_pudding quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-04T13:57:35Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-04-04T13:58:16Z supercoven_ joined #lisp 2021-04-04T13:58:18Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-04T13:58:53Z waleee-cl joined #lisp 2021-04-04T14:01:27Z supercoven quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-04T14:04:11Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-04T14:06:04Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-04-04T14:18:03Z jmiven quit (Quit: reboot) 2021-04-04T14:18:47Z jmiven joined #lisp 2021-04-04T14:20:55Z CrazyEddy quit (Quit: Reconnecting) 2021-04-04T14:22:09Z mrchampion joined #lisp 2021-04-04T14:26:03Z seok quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-04-04T14:27:10Z nicktick joined #lisp 2021-04-04T14:45:41Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-04T14:45:59Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-04-04T14:46:54Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-04T14:47:19Z _jrjsmrtn joined #lisp 2021-04-04T14:48:27Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-04T14:56:51Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I moved away from a system in my game engine that automatically scanned for resources to allocate to a manual system based on a single generic function. Way less hassle and way less error prone. 2021-04-04T19:46:10Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2021-04-04T19:48:09Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-04T19:48:19Z scymtym: there was this "metacopy" system. i think it had problems, but maybe there are some ideas in there 2021-04-04T19:49:11Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2021-04-04T19:54:00Z Bike: i'll look at it, thanks. 2021-04-04T19:54:10Z Bike: i guess game resources are probably similar levels of complicated to what i'm doing. 2021-04-04T19:54:58Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-04T19:56:13Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-04T19:57:41Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2021-04-04T20:08:54Z Helmholtz joined #lisp 2021-04-04T20:09:20Z nullman quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-04T20:09:24Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-04T20:13:38Z akoana joined #lisp 2021-04-04T20:37:29Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-04T20:38:05Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp 2021-04-04T20:38:45Z samlamamma quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-04T20:40:58Z nullman joined #lisp 2021-04-04T20:45:30Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Do you know how I would fix "No Lisp subprocess; see variable 'inferior-lisp-buffer'" in Emacs? I want to use SLIME :) 2021-04-04T21:40:06Z aaronm04: seen when selecting Lisp->Eval defun while editing a .lisp file 2021-04-04T21:41:19Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-04T21:41:56Z terpri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-04T21:41:57Z terpri_ joined #lisp 2021-04-04T21:42:07Z charles`: aaronm04: you have to have start a lisp process. step 1: have a common lisp installed, step 2 run M-x slime ( think it is) 2021-04-04T21:42:41Z Bike: you may need to inform your slime what lisp to run by setting inferior-lisp-program. 2021-04-04T21:42:56Z aaronm04: ahh ok. I did run M-x slime 2021-04-04T21:43:32Z aaronm04: and I have this in my .emacs: (setq inferior-lisp-program "sbcl") 2021-04-04T21:46:17Z aaronm04: aha 2021-04-04T21:46:38Z aaronm04: after running Lisp->Run inferior lisp, everything seems to be working. I can Eval defun 2021-04-04T21:46:45Z aaronm04: sorry for the noise lol 2021-04-04T21:50:25Z vv8 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-04T21:59:14Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-04T22:03:11Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-04T22:03:56Z phantomics quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2021-04-04T22:05:34Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2021-04-04T22:10:23Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 28.0.50)) 2021-04-04T22:12:31Z h4ck3r9696 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-04-04T22:12:39Z ramHero quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-04T22:13:35Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-04T22:18:48Z l1x quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-04-04T22:24:38Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-04T22:28:05Z Josh_2: Are there any native lisp async libraries? 2021-04-04T22:31:19Z Helmholtz joined #lisp 2021-04-04T22:31:31Z no-defun-allowed: I think SBCL has a function in its socket library which calls poll/epoll and can be used to write a driver loop. But in my opinion the best async Lisp experience would be to implement green threads, use a driver loop to wake threads blocked on IO, and then implement usocket and friends using that. 2021-04-04T22:36:25Z Josh_2: I think I will just uses promises 2021-04-04T22:37:17Z Gnuxie[m]: rip conditions 2021-04-04T22:37:37Z no-defun-allowed: "Where should I get silver for making cutlery from?" "*answer*" "Never mind, I think I will make a spoon." 2021-04-04T22:38:02Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-04T22:38:28Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-04-04T22:38:30Z Bike: there are multiple promises implementations in lisp already, at least 2021-04-04T22:38:37Z Josh_2: Yeh 2021-04-04T22:38:40Z Bike: so the spoon doesn't have to be newly forged 2021-04-04T22:39:12Z Josh_2: I don't want to make anything, this is why I asked if a library exists 2021-04-04T22:39:17Z no-defun-allowed: You still find yourself with an async library (or entirely straight-line synchronous code) though. 2021-04-04T22:41:02Z no-defun-allowed: Still, I would find myself either writing code with blocking threads, or implementing enough of do-notation to not go mad with callbacks. 2021-04-04T22:43:30Z Josh_2: Well I'm okay with synchronous code as well 2021-04-04T22:43:44Z m0xya joined #lisp 2021-04-04T22:49:09Z m0xya quit (Quit: Goodbye! 73s) 2021-04-04T22:49:25Z m0xya joined #lisp 2021-04-04T22:50:26Z edgar-rft: Josh_2: there's Bordeaux Threads if that's the kind of "async" you're talking about -> https://common-lisp.net/project/bordeaux-threads/ 2021-04-04T22:51:14Z perrier-jouet joined #lisp 2021-04-04T22:53:26Z Josh_2: Thanks edgar-rft xD 2021-04-04T22:53:44Z no-defun-allowed: edgar-rft: "async" usually refers to asynchronous IO, which I can only really describe as having an OS thread block on a single connection (unless there are no more connections to block on). Think poll, Unix AIO, io_uring, etc. 2021-04-04T22:54:21Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-04T22:54:49Z edgar-rft: "async" refers to anything asynchronous you can imagine and is a very broad and unprecise term 2021-04-04T22:56:12Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-04-04T23:08:26Z phantomics joined #lisp 2021-04-04T23:09:15Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-04T23:10:42Z slyrus_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-04T23:11:13Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2021-04-05T01:33:17Z Helmholtz quit (Quit: Helmholtz) 2021-04-05T01:33:43Z huonib joined #lisp 2021-04-05T01:35:26Z huonib: can someone help me with this? I am working on a project and I am looking to use a lisp that compiles to a small binary - either ecl, chez, or chicken scheme 2021-04-05T01:35:43Z huonib: right now I am trying this with ecl but I am getting an error: https://gist.github.com/huonib/9ddddc7998c43681795309233feeeb5c 2021-04-05T01:36:09Z huonib: I used quickproject to create the project, all I did was add the hello function 2021-04-05T01:36:09Z semz joined #lisp 2021-04-05T01:36:14Z Bike: What is the error? 2021-04-05T01:37:02Z huonib: I updated the gist with it - sorry 2021-04-05T01:37:14Z huonib: Condition of type: UNDEFINED-FUNCTION 2021-04-05T01:37:15Z huonib: The function HELLO is undefined. 2021-04-05T01:37:44Z logand``` joined #lisp 2021-04-05T01:37:59Z huonib: Bike: thank you for taking your time 2021-04-05T01:38:21Z Bike: wait, sorry, what is make-build? i don't have that function in my asdf and i don't see it in the manual. 2021-04-05T01:38:26Z huonib: ... to help. god I am bad at writing. 2021-04-05T01:38:52Z huonib: Bike: found it here: https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/static/manual/System-building.html#Compiling-with-ASDF 2021-04-05T01:38:58Z Bike: oh, it's only defined on ecl 2021-04-05T01:39:32Z Bike: well, my guess is that when the program starts, *package* is something other than helloworld 2021-04-05T01:39:42Z Bike: you could check by typing *package* in the repl there and seeing what it is 2021-04-05T01:39:55Z akoana left #lisp 2021-04-05T01:41:11Z logand`` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-05T01:41:59Z huonib: Bike: that was it indeed 2021-04-05T01:43:01Z huonib: when does the package change automatically? I thought slime did that for some reason. 2021-04-05T01:44:41Z huonib: Bike: thank you so much though, that was really helpful 2021-04-05T01:44:54Z APic joined #lisp 2021-04-05T01:48:22Z Bike: yeah, no prob. i don't know how to use make-build, but you could probably set it in :prologue-code? 2021-04-05T01:48:48Z Bike: if i'm reading the asdf changelogs correctly, make-build is deprecaed 2021-04-05T01:49:06Z APic quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-05T01:50:43Z alanz quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-04-05T01:50:43Z b20n quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-04-05T01:50:53Z Bike: probably the new lisp starts in cl-user by default. 2021-04-05T01:51:36Z dunk quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-04-05T01:51:37Z buoy49 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-04-05T01:52:01Z jerme_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-04-05T01:52:58Z anticrisis_ joined #lisp 2021-04-05T01:53:02Z anticrisis_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-05T01:53:52Z raeda joined #lisp 2021-04-05T01:54:23Z APic joined #lisp 2021-04-05T01:55:02Z anticrisis quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-05T01:55:40Z jerme_ joined #lisp 2021-04-05T01:55:43Z huonib quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-04-05T01:55:59Z dunk joined #lisp 2021-04-05T01:56:08Z b20n joined #lisp 2021-04-05T01:56:20Z huonib joined #lisp 2021-04-05T01:56:31Z alanz joined #lisp 2021-04-05T01:56:31Z buoy49 joined #lisp 2021-04-05T02:02:13Z ikrabbe|2 joined #lisp 2021-04-05T02:05:11Z ikrabbe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-05T02:05:29Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-04-05T02:05:52Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-04-05T02:06:23Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-04-05T02:07:41Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-05T02:08:41Z huonib: huh - I didn't have that much faith in ECL, since I heard nobody really uses it, but it generates a binary of 2.1 MB whereas chicken scheme is at 4.6 MB 2021-04-05T02:08:44Z huonib: that's impressive 2021-04-05T02:08:58Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-05T02:09:21Z Bike: ecl is actively developed. i don't use it regularly but it sounds like it works fine 2021-04-05T02:09:48Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2021-04-05T02:10:12Z huonib: Bike: that is great to hear 2021-04-05T02:11:26Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-04-05T02:11:36Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-04-05T02:11:42Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-05T02:12:11Z huonib: Bike: I am a complete idiot, so bear with me, but chicken scheme can compile without the runtime - is that possible with ecl? 2021-04-05T02:12:39Z Bike: what, like freestanding C? 2021-04-05T02:13:24Z huonib: Bike: https://wiki.call-cc.org/generating%20the%20smallest%20possible,%20self-contained%20executable 2021-04-05T02:13:48Z huonib: Bike: what do you mean by freestanding C? 2021-04-05T02:15:10Z Bike: the C standard uses the term 'freestanding' to mean implementations that almost entirely lack runtime support 2021-04-05T02:15:31Z Bike: but i see this chicken example still uses the c runtime 2021-04-05T02:15:38Z Bike: just not the chicken runtime 2021-04-05T02:15:47Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2021-04-05T02:15:52Z huonib: oh, sorry, I should have been clearer. 2021-04-05T02:15:57Z Bike: i have no idea if ecl supports this 2021-04-05T02:16:02Z slyrus_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-05T02:16:36Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-05T02:17:02Z Bike: i think there's an #ecl channel, and also jackdaniel comes around here and is a maintainer 2021-04-05T02:17:08Z Bike: if this isn't covered in the manual 2021-04-05T02:17:43Z nitrix quit (Quit: Genius is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine percent perspiration) 2021-04-05T02:18:57Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-05T02:19:02Z Bike: trying to reduce binary size is kind of a niche concern, so support could be lacking 2021-04-05T02:19:13Z cchristiansen joined #lisp 2021-04-05T02:19:17Z huonib: Bike: thank you 2021-04-05T02:19:19Z Bike: you can link the ecl runtime as a shared object, i'm pretty sure 2021-04-05T02:21:34Z slyrus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T02:21:53Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-05T02:24:15Z nitrix joined #lisp 2021-04-05T02:24:34Z slyrus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T02:24:58Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-05T02:25:42Z huonib quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. 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slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-05T09:59:47Z slyrus_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-05T09:59:53Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-05T10:00:06Z vegansbane6963 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-04-05T10:00:19Z luis: I've just noticed that SLIME's presentations weakly reference their respective object: they don't prevent the object from being GCed and if the object is GCed, the presentation is disabled (it turns into plain text). I'd never noticed this before. Is this how LispM/CLIM presentations work too? 2021-04-05T10:01:08Z loke[m]1: luis: that's not how they behaved in the past. I'm pretty sure I needed to C-x M-o to lose the references to them. 2021-04-05T10:01:18Z slyrus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T10:01:29Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-05T10:04:03Z slyrus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T10:04:26Z moshes quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-05T10:04:27Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-05T10:04:42Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2021-04-05T10:04:58Z luis: loke[m]1: I was under that impression too, but *object-to-presentation-id* and *presentation-id-to-object* have been weak hash-tables for well over a decade and I don't think the REPL has ever stored them anywhere but * ** ** / // //. At some point (2006-ish?) SBCL didn't support weak hash-tables. 2021-04-05T10:05:36Z rick-monster joined #lisp 2021-04-05T10:06:41Z loke[m]1: luis: Perhaps the reference is held somewhere else. I just tried creating a large array, leaving it in a presentation and did a (gc :full t) 2021-04-05T10:06:53Z loke[m]1: I did several actually. And the presentation still works. 2021-04-05T10:07:25Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2021-04-05T10:07:35Z luis: loke[m]1: did you evaluate enough subsequent forms to clear it from * ** ***? 2021-04-05T10:07:52Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2021-04-05T10:08:35Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-04-05T10:08:36Z loke[m]1: The 5 evaluations of (gc :full t) should have been enough, but for good measure I did about 10 more evaluations of simple numbers followed by a few more gc's. 2021-04-05T10:09:18Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-05T10:10:22Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-05T10:10:59Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-04-05T10:11:47Z slyrus_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-05T10:12:13Z luis: loke[m]1: how did you determine the presentation still works? 2021-04-05T10:13:03Z slyrus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T10:13:17Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-05T10:13:53Z luis: Try right clicking it. 2021-04-05T10:14:38Z loke[m]1: luis: Well, I went to it and typed C-c C-v TAB. But yes, right-clicking also works. 2021-04-05T10:16:07Z luis: loke[m]1: Well, I'm stumped. That's not the behaviour I'm seeing. 2021-04-05T10:16:31Z loke[m]1: I use the version of SLIME synced from the git repository today. 2021-04-05T10:16:34Z minion quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T10:16:35Z specbot quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T10:17:11Z slyrus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T10:17:11Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2021-04-05T10:17:37Z luis: We need a third volunteer to try and reproduce this. :-) 2021-04-05T10:18:08Z luis looks around 2021-04-05T10:18:53Z minion joined #lisp 2021-04-05T10:18:53Z specbot joined #lisp 2021-04-05T10:19:31Z luis: Anyone with SBCL and SLIME on hand? 2021-04-05T10:19:47Z slyrus_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T10:20:07Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-05T10:20:34Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-04-05T10:20:39Z no-defun-allowed: I remember copying the presentation to another buffer, and then doing some more stuff, including clearing output, then the presentation would stop working. 2021-04-05T10:20:53Z lotuseater joined #lisp 2021-04-05T10:21:48Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-04-05T10:22:10Z luis: no-defun-allowed: that's expected since clearing output clears presentations (or it tries to, I'm baffled by that particular bit of code too, but that's another story) 2021-04-05T10:22:52Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2021-04-05T10:22:53Z no-defun-allowed: Ah, I am talking about something else. /me rereads 2021-04-05T10:24:20Z no-defun-allowed: CLIM presentations would strongly reference from memory, else they could not be ACCEPTed or used for gesture translation(?) later, and I don't recall reading that the implementation could allow ACCEPT to stop working for whatever reason. 2021-04-05T10:24:30Z luis: So, the test case is: evaluate the following forms in the slime-repl one by one: (make-array 10), 1, 2, 3, (gc :full t) then right click (or C-c C-v TAB) the array presentation. I get "object no longer recorded" but it works for loke[m]1 for some reason. 2021-04-05T10:24:46Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-05T10:25:02Z no-defun-allowed: But I also agree that I thought *slime-repl* served as "roots" somehow. 2021-04-05T10:25:33Z luis: We're all in agreement about how it /should/ work so far. :-) 2021-04-05T10:25:51Z no-defun-allowed: Huh, it does in fact say "Object no longer recorded" in the right-click menu, and then it ceases to be clickable. 2021-04-05T10:25:58Z Stanley00 quit 2021-04-05T10:26:05Z luis: Ah, a confirmation. That's nice. 2021-04-05T10:26:24Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-05T10:26:31Z slyrus_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T10:27:32Z luis: no-defun-allowed: thanks. loke[m]1: not sure why you're getting different results. 2021-04-05T10:27:52Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-05T10:28:17Z rick-monster: luis I couldn't repro (assuming 1,2,3 means wait 3 seconds) 2021-04-05T10:29:02Z slyrus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T10:29:06Z no-defun-allowed: It means to evaluate 1, then evaluate 2, then evaluate 3, in order to clear out the "history" variables. 2021-04-05T10:29:20Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-05T10:31:08Z rick-monster: in that case I can repro - C-c C-v TAB results in "Attempt to access unrecorded object (id 94)" 2021-04-05T10:31:49Z eden quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-05T10:31:57Z slyrus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T10:32:16Z eden joined #lisp 2021-04-05T10:32:22Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-05T10:34:31Z rick-monster: software versions for repro: sbcl 2.0.8, swank/slime 2.26.1, linux. 2021-04-05T10:34:49Z slyrus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T10:34:52Z h4ck3r9696 left #lisp 2021-04-05T10:35:00Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-04-05T10:35:10Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-05T10:37:15Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-04-05T10:37:27Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-05T10:38:04Z slyrus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T10:38:09Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2021-04-05T10:38:09Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-05T10:38:33Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-04-05T10:40:06Z luis: rick-monster: thanks. 2021-04-05T10:41:12Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-05T10:42:11Z slyrus_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-05T10:43:43Z slyrus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T10:44:04Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-05T10:46:23Z slyrus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T10:46:52Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-05T10:49:43Z slyrus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T10:49:48Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2021-04-05T10:52:57Z slyrus_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T10:52:58Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-05T10:55:45Z slyrus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T10:56:06Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-05T10:56:49Z yitzi joined #lisp 2021-04-05T10:56:55Z yitzi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-05T10:58:57Z slyrus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T10:59:05Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-05T11:01:36Z slyrus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T11:01:51Z skapatov quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-05T11:02:05Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-05T11:03:24Z rick-monster: I'm dusting off an old music-control framework I wrote for lisp-on-linux and would like to discuss an aspect of the design. 2021-04-05T11:03:37Z rick-monster: the project is called 'serial hub' because it aggregates events from serial devices (eg midi, OSC, other usb music-controller peripherals). Currently each serial device or network socket has dedicated blocking thread to translate incoming serial data from a stream to lisp object. lisp objects from various sources are aggregated by sending them into a threadsafe channel (lisp library calispel). application layer simply re 2021-04-05T11:03:37Z rick-monster: out of channel - easy event loop programming. 2021-04-05T11:04:29Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-04-05T11:04:35Z slyrus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T11:04:57Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-05T11:05:38Z rick-monster: thought for a while I should make the framework single-threaded. Rather than threads aggregate threadsafe channel, better to poll a group of file-descriptors in event-loop idle phase. I suspect this makes timing more deterministic when run on single-core linux. 2021-04-05T11:07:47Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2021-04-05T11:07:49Z slyrus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T11:10:25Z rick-monster: now, 2 questions... 2021-04-05T11:10:38Z rick-monster: 1. will I run into horrible insurmountable problems with this file-descriptor-polling approach (sbcl/ccl for linux x86/ARM) when USB cable of a serial device is unexpectedly pulled? 2021-04-05T11:10:53Z slyrus_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T11:10:55Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-05T11:11:19Z no-defun-allowed: I think polling allows you to detect errors somehow, but I forgot how. 2021-04-05T11:11:22Z rick-monster: 2. is there a good existing lisp library which will handle the file-descriptor-polling part? 2021-04-05T11:11:46Z luis: rick-monster: if you're going to serialize event handling anyway polling a group of fds seems better, but nothing beats testing. iolib seems like a good candidate for that. 2021-04-05T11:11:56Z no-defun-allowed: There's an array of file descriptors and flags you pass, and one of those flags is to poll for errors. 2021-04-05T11:13:30Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-04-05T11:13:52Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2021-04-05T11:14:29Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-04-05T11:15:23Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-05T11:16:33Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-04-05T11:16:43Z rick-monster: no-defun-allowed: think I remember previously hitting a case where reading a now-unplugged USB-device file descriptor raises a signal which got mis-handled by sbcl causing a meltdown. Maybe this poll-for-errors is the trick I was missing 2021-04-05T11:17:19Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-05T11:17:28Z slyrus_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T11:17:30Z no-defun-allowed: You might also want to handle the signal then. 2021-04-05T11:17:39Z luis: rick-monster: that seems like a problem that would happen regardless of polling strategy. 2021-04-05T11:19:46Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-05T11:19:47Z rick-monster: luis, no-defun-allowed thanks for your input. think I need to approach the problem with a new mini-project which simply reads/writes a single serial device via iolib, but correctly detects and handles USB hotplugging 2021-04-05T11:20:20Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2021-04-05T11:21:38Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-05T11:23:13Z slyrus_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T11:23:14Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-05T11:25:45Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-05T11:25:53Z slyrus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T11:26:20Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-05T11:29:16Z slyrus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T11:29:40Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-05T11:31:55Z slyrus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T11:32:20Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-05T11:34:01Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2021-04-05T11:34:19Z Helmholtz joined #lisp 2021-04-05T11:34:52Z slyrus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T11:35:17Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-05T11:37:58Z slyrus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T11:38:12Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-05T11:40:24Z klltkr joined #lisp 2021-04-05T11:41:10Z slyrus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T11:41:15Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2021-04-05T11:44:54Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-05T11:45:02Z slyrus_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T11:47:29Z slyrus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T11:47:54Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-05T11:49:14Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2021-04-05T11:50:44Z Adamclisi quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-05T11:50:45Z slyrus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T11:50:59Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-05T11:52:19Z Adamclisi joined #lisp 2021-04-05T11:52:47Z kevingal: I'm trying to implement streams using macros. So I can write (scons (/ 1 0) empty-stream) and it'll expand to something like (cons (quote (/ 1 0)) nil). 2021-04-05T11:52:57Z Helmholtz quit (Quit: Helmholtz) 2021-04-05T11:52:57Z kevingal: Then the head can be evaluated later. 2021-04-05T11:53:29Z slyrus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T11:53:50Z kevingal: But of course I've found that this doesn't work when I do something like (scons (+ a b) empty-stream) because the "a" and "b" are no longer bound when I try to evaluate the head. 2021-04-05T11:53:57Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-05T11:55:06Z kevingal: Is there a way to capture the environment? Or is that a pants-on-head thing to do? 2021-04-05T11:55:45Z Xach: kevingal: you could expand into (lambda () ...) and funcall it to get the value. 2021-04-05T11:55:52Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-04-05T11:56:37Z slyrus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T11:56:44Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, usually you implement lazy conses with a macro that expands to something with (lambda ()
) wrapping the car and cdr. 2021-04-05T11:56:45Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-05T11:59:54Z slyrus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T11:59:58Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-04-05T12:00:02Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-05T12:02:47Z slyrus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T12:03:12Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-05T12:03:24Z kevingal: Riiiight, that makes sense. Thank you. 2021-04-05T12:04:23Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-04-05T12:06:12Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2021-04-05T12:07:41Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-05T12:08:09Z aggin joined #lisp 2021-04-05T12:08:20Z aggin: anyone here ever tried using lquery with cl-arrows ? 2021-04-05T12:09:13Z slyrus_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T12:09:17Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-05T12:09:23Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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2021-04-05T12:32:50Z aggin: when I put lquery:$ under a different function name, it works perfectly fine 2021-04-05T12:32:59Z slyrus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T12:33:11Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-05T12:35:44Z slyrus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T12:35:46Z aggin: https://pastebin.com/GYz1WbtN 2021-04-05T12:35:50Z aggin: this works perfectly fine 2021-04-05T12:36:10Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-05T12:38:35Z slyrus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T12:38:43Z Bike: are the macroexpansions different? other than the name obviously 2021-04-05T12:39:00Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-05T12:39:16Z aggin: from what the SBCL error tells me, I think so 2021-04-05T12:39:35Z Bike: have you looked at them? like with macroexpand-1? 2021-04-05T12:39:54Z aggin: I did it with sly-macroexpand-1, it gave the one I've sent 2021-04-05T12:39:57Z aggin: the expected one 2021-04-05T12:40:16Z aggin: but when doing macroexpand-1 in the function, it gives an error before I can see the end result 2021-04-05T12:41:41Z aggin: idk why the 1st arg to -<>> goes to the 2nd arg 2021-04-05T12:41:50Z phoe: for whatever reason lquery:$ funges the CONCATENATE call 2021-04-05T12:41:55Z aggin: *2nd arg to -<>> goes to the 1st arg 2021-04-05T12:41:59Z aggin: phoe: yeah 2021-04-05T12:42:05Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2021-04-05T12:42:20Z phoe: the arrow expands into (AREF (LQUERY:$ DATA (CONCATENATE 'STRING ".cb-lv-scr-mtch-hdr a[href*=" QUERY "].text-bold")) 0) 2021-04-05T12:42:21Z motersen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-05T12:42:29Z aggin: which is what I want 2021-04-05T12:42:34Z phoe: which is what does not compile 2021-04-05T12:42:39Z aggin: but when I run it, the SBCL error shows me something else 2021-04-05T12:42:47Z Bike: oh, yeah, looking at $ there, it doesn't look like you can just put normal code in there? 2021-04-05T12:43:03Z aggin: wdym ? 2021-04-05T12:43:06Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-05T12:43:12Z aggin: putting something other than lquery:$ ? 2021-04-05T12:43:14Z aggin: yeah that works fine 2021-04-05T12:43:39Z Bike: i man, you're doing ($ (concatenate ...) ...), and it looks like $ does something with lists other than normally executing them? 2021-04-05T12:43:47Z Bike: from the docstring 2021-04-05T12:43:56Z Bike: https://github.com/Shinmera/lquery/blob/master/lquery.lisp#L91-L96 2021-04-05T12:44:36Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-04-05T12:44:46Z aggin: hmm so I think concatenate is in LQUERY-MACROS 2021-04-05T12:45:07Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-05T12:45:07Z phoe: yes, looks like $ does lots of stuff under the hood and it implements its own DSL in place of stndard Lisp 2021-04-05T12:45:09Z Shinmera: Lquery treats function names specially to avoid requiring you to prefix them all with the package name. 2021-04-05T12:45:24Z aggin: guess I should use a let statement for concatenate 2021-04-05T12:45:35Z slyrus_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T12:47:18Z motersen joined #lisp 2021-04-05T12:47:22Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2021-04-05T12:48:29Z slyrus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T12:48:54Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-05T12:50:21Z aggin quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-04-05T12:52:20Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2021-04-05T12:53:25Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-05T12:53:36Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-05T12:55:04Z slyrus_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T12:55:19Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-05T12:55:46Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-05T12:55:59Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2021-04-05T12:58:37Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2021-04-05T12:58:45Z slyrus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T13:01:02Z slyrus_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T13:01:31Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-05T13:04:23Z slyrus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T13:04:32Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-05T13:05:40Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-04-05T13:07:51Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2021-04-05T13:09:05Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-04-05T13:09:06Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-05T13:10:33Z slyrus_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T13:10:43Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-05T13:13:52Z slyrus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T13:14:05Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-05T13:16:39Z slyrus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T13:17:05Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-05T13:19:32Z slyrus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T13:19:59Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-05T13:22:57Z slyrus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T13:23:05Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-05T13:26:22Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2021-04-05T13:26:49Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I wanna use a testing framework for my project from the start. Are there any "survey's" of quicklisp installable testing frameworks I can take a look at? 2021-04-05T13:47:47Z Shinmera: Sabra said he'd make a survey some time, but I don't think he ever found the time to actually do it. 2021-04-05T13:47:56Z phoe: kslt1: how much do you want from your test framework? 2021-04-05T13:48:07Z slyrus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T13:48:09Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2021-04-05T13:48:26Z kslt1: I dunno yet. 2021-04-05T13:48:46Z Shinmera: I wrote Parachute, so I'm biased towards that. 2021-04-05T13:48:49Z phoe: the absolute minimalism is using DEFUN over ASSERT 2021-04-05T13:48:58Z phoe: a step above absolute minimalism is using 1AM 2021-04-05T13:49:32Z kslt1: Was hoping to build on appetite based on the survey. 2021-04-05T13:49:35Z phoe: above that there's, in random order: fiasco, parachute, fiveam, prove, tens of other test frameworks that are more or less popular 2021-04-05T13:51:18Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-05T13:51:24Z kslt1: I got interesting looking at the Common Lisp Cookbook example using "prove". 2021-04-05T13:52:21Z cpape` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3)) 2021-04-05T13:52:27Z slyrus_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-05T13:52:40Z cpape joined #lisp 2021-04-05T13:52:50Z kslt1: I'll do a little more research using above list as starting point. Thanks! 2021-04-05T13:54:38Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-05T13:55:26Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-05T13:55:49Z sp41 joined #lisp 2021-04-05T13:56:44Z cpape quit (Client Quit) 2021-04-05T13:57:02Z cpape joined #lisp 2021-04-05T14:00:38Z APic quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-05T14:02:18Z APic joined #lisp 2021-04-05T14:04:10Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-04-05T14:12:06Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-04-05T14:20:25Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-05T14:20:55Z noobineer joined #lisp 2021-04-05T14:22:04Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-04-05T14:24:51Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-05T14:25:41Z MichaelRaskin: phoe: I am pretty sure I wrote assert-based example/test sets without defun, so _absolute_ minimalism is just assert 2021-04-05T14:29:56Z sjl joined #lisp 2021-04-05T14:32:52Z Noisytoot joined #lisp 2021-04-05T14:34:44Z aindilis joined #lisp 2021-04-05T14:40:51Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-04-05T14:40:58Z kslt1: prove docs mentioned prove becoming obsolete, which made me wonder about it. 2021-04-05T14:41:11Z sjl quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3-dev) 2021-04-05T14:41:12Z phoe: MichaelRaskin: oh right, sure 2021-04-05T14:41:22Z phoe: if you want compile-time testing then just ASSERT is enough 2021-04-05T14:41:40Z phoe: DEFUN is just to defer testing to execution time 2021-04-05T14:57:23Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T15:04:33Z shka_: i kinda like prove 2021-04-05T15:04:34Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T15:04:46Z shka_: it remains simple, but it integrates with the asdf 2021-04-05T15:05:37Z shka_: didn't tried rove yet 2021-04-05T15:06:37Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-05T15:12:20Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-04-05T15:13:06Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-05T15:13:39Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-05T15:15:43Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-04-05T15:16:46Z mfiano: FInd it odd that prove was deprecated in favor of rove, when rove doesn't even have all the testing constructs prove does 2021-04-05T15:22:49Z jackdaniel: who deprecated it? 2021-04-05T15:23:08Z phoe: the author 2021-04-05T15:23:45Z jackdaniel: mhm 2021-04-05T15:23:53Z mfiano: More like obsoleted, but yeah 2021-04-05T15:24:54Z jackdaniel: I like 5am - totally not sexy but quite dependable 2021-04-05T15:25:02Z mfiano: I still use prove. I've tried other frameworks and had some bugs with false positives and never really needed anything more from prove. It does use ASDF in a deprecated way, causing warnings. 2021-04-05T15:25:16Z mfiano: But whatevs 2021-04-05T15:36:45Z kevingal: Is there a way to define self-referential lexical variables? I'm trying to define an infinite stream in terms of itself, which worked with DEFPARAMETER, but when I try to use LET or LET*, I get an unbound variable error. 2021-04-05T15:37:26Z kevingal: E.g. (defparameter ones (stream-cons 1 ones)) is the infinite stream of 1s (example from SICP). 2021-04-05T15:37:51Z Bike: clhs labels 2021-04-05T15:37:52Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_flet_.htm 2021-04-05T15:37:59Z phoe: that's for functions though 2021-04-05T15:38:08Z Bike: you can use this for almost any use of scheme letrec 2021-04-05T15:38:16Z phoe: I think you might need to quote ONES in there and explicitly call SYMBOL-VALUE on it when you want to retrieve the value 2021-04-05T15:38:46Z phoe: e.g. something like (defparameter *ones* (cons 1 (lambda () (symbol-value '*ones*)))) 2021-04-05T15:39:27Z Bike: (defparameter *ones* (labels ((thunk () (cons 1 #'thunk))) (thunk))) 2021-04-05T15:40:10Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2021-04-05T15:48:53Z waleee-cl joined #lisp 2021-04-05T15:48:59Z phoe: oooh, like *this* 2021-04-05T15:49:05Z phoe: TIL 2021-04-05T15:53:46Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-05T15:53:49Z natter joined #lisp 2021-04-05T15:53:57Z eden quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-05T15:55:18Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T15:55:34Z nopf_ is now known as nopf 2021-04-05T15:55:39Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-05T16:00:56Z Bike: http://ix.io/2V85 attempt at general letrec 2021-04-05T16:01:01Z Bike: results in a pointless thunk here, tho 2021-04-05T16:01:50Z eden joined #lisp 2021-04-05T16:01:55Z Bike: also, it will hang if your definition doesn't delay the use of itself, so don't do that. 2021-04-05T16:02:18Z Bike: i'm pretty sure i wrote something like t his years ago for this exact purpose and then never used it for anything 2021-04-05T16:02:51Z yonkunas joined #lisp 2021-04-05T16:02:54Z kevingal: Hmmm, (let ((ones (stream-cons 1 ones))) ones) actually works. I'm trying to debug why my more complicated example is failing. 2021-04-05T16:03:24Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2021-04-05T16:04:24Z Bike: that really shouldn't work. is it possible you have ONES defined as a global variable? 2021-04-05T16:05:05Z kevingal: Ahh, you're right. 2021-04-05T16:05:27Z Bike: my thing works on (letrec ((ones (scons 1 threes)) (threes (scons 3 ones))) ones), neato 2021-04-05T16:06:24Z Bike: oh, and bonus tip: you can do (makunbound 'ones) to make something stop being a global variable 2021-04-05T16:06:46Z phoe: Bike: but it'll still be special 2021-04-05T16:06:55Z phoe: no portable way other than UNINTERN to solve that 2021-04-05T16:07:39Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-04-05T16:08:52Z kevingal: Thanks for the tips! I would normally give them earmuffs but I was copying from SICP :D 2021-04-05T16:08:56Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-04-05T16:10:24Z dyelar joined #lisp 2021-04-05T16:13:27Z chipolux joined #lisp 2021-04-05T16:14:53Z kevingal: phoe: the SYMBOL-VALUE approach didn't work, I'm afraid! (scdr (let ((wuns (scons 1 (symbol-value 'thingy)))) wuns)) 2021-04-05T16:15:18Z kevingal: So do I understand correctly that the variable is only available for capture within the body of the LET? 2021-04-05T16:15:36Z kevingal: Sorry, that should be: (scdr (let ((wuns (scons 1 (symbol-value 'wuns)))) wuns)) 2021-04-05T16:15:40Z Bike: yes, variables are only bound by let within the body of the let. 2021-04-05T16:15:55Z Bike: also, symbol-value is about dynamic variables, not lexical variables, so it's probably not relevant to your question. 2021-04-05T16:16:06Z long4mud joined #lisp 2021-04-05T16:18:20Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-04-05T16:19:26Z Bike: sicp is using LETREC for this, not LET, right? 2021-04-05T16:21:14Z kevingal: So far it has only used DEFINE. 2021-04-05T16:21:37Z chipolux quit (Quit: chipolux) 2021-04-05T16:22:21Z Bike: oh, well, okay. 2021-04-05T16:22:57Z Bike: top level definitions can be recursive, obviously. for recursive local definitions you can't use LET since it doesn't make the bindings available to the value-forms. 2021-04-05T16:23:26Z Bike: LETREC does, but it doesn't exist in the common lisp standard. instead you have to use labels, which is similar, but only allows binding functions. 2021-04-05T16:24:25Z kevingal: Gotcha, that's very helpful, thanks. 2021-04-05T16:26:16Z kevingal: I think for now I'll just steal your version of LETREC, haha. 2021-04-05T16:27:29Z Bike: keep in mind i wrote it in two minutes and didn't test it, so it may bite 2021-04-05T16:28:38Z Bike: also it can be much more simply written with mutation 2021-04-05T16:29:03Z Bike: (let (ones) (setf ones (scons 1 ones)) ones) 2021-04-05T16:29:09Z Bike: i didn't write it that way because i forgot 2021-04-05T16:33:09Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-04-05T16:41:22Z Nilby: letrec etc is not needed for this, cons-stream is just a macro. you just have to make delay/force which could most simply be quote/eval or quote/symbol-value. 2021-04-05T16:41:35Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-05T16:41:39Z pjb: kevingal: the problem is that you wrote stream-cons wrong. 2021-04-05T16:42:17Z Aurora_iz_kosmos joined #lisp 2021-04-05T16:42:38Z Bike: eval would be even worse than my overcomplicated letrec macro. 2021-04-05T16:42:44Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-04-05T16:42:50Z Aurora_iz_kosmos is now known as Aurora_v_kosmose 2021-04-05T16:44:37Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-04-05T16:45:36Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-04-05T16:46:16Z kevingal: Howso? My stream-cons / scons macro expands to a cons with both of the elements wrapped in a lambda. 2021-04-05T16:47:04Z Bike: well, the relevant way eval won't help is that it cannot access lexical variables. 2021-04-05T16:47:53Z kevingal: I initially tried using quote, but that didn't capture surrounding variables so this gave an error: (let ((a 1) (b 2)) (scons (/ a b) the-empty-stream). 2021-04-05T16:48:06Z Bike: right. 2021-04-05T16:48:13Z kevingal: (I was pestering people in the channel about this earlier). 2021-04-05T16:49:17Z pjb: kevingal: https://termbin.com/onknp 2021-04-05T16:49:35Z zaquest quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T16:50:01Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-04-05T16:50:11Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-05T16:51:00Z pjb: kevingal: but yes, there's no let form in CL that evaluate the initialization form in a scope where the variable is defined. We'd have to write a letrec macro… 2021-04-05T16:51:03Z huonib joined #lisp 2021-04-05T16:52:18Z hoz joined #lisp 2021-04-05T16:52:35Z huonib: does anyone know how to create a static binary with ecl? 2021-04-05T16:52:42Z huonib: I posted on #ecl too 2021-04-05T16:55:55Z ech joined #lisp 2021-04-05T17:05:30Z shka_: how can I get the current condition in the restart-case? 2021-04-05T17:05:50Z shka_: uhm, i think that this is wrong question 2021-04-05T17:07:52Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-04-05T17:08:32Z Bike: it would have to be passed to the restart. 2021-04-05T17:09:54Z shka_: kevingal: you can fake it with labels, as already demonstrated 2021-04-05T17:10:10Z shka_: Bike: yeah, i realized that 2021-04-05T17:10:10Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-04-05T17:12:04Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-05T17:12:48Z luna_is_here quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-05T17:14:51Z luna_is_here joined #lisp 2021-04-05T17:17:55Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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You have to setup up memory barriers, page tables, processor rings, interrupt tables, etc. 2021-04-05T21:37:55Z Nilby: e.g. the O/S kernel safely calls C 2021-04-05T21:38:41Z jmercouris: right, but the O/S is designed for that 2021-04-05T21:38:44Z jmercouris: and it takes a lot of work 2021-04-05T21:38:51Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-05T21:39:04Z jmercouris: I'm talking about within the realm of realistically possible for a single programmer to achieve 2021-04-05T21:39:15Z Nilby: But the coolest way it to run C as Lisp like Genera did. 2021-04-05T21:39:26Z moon-child: plenty of people have written their own OSes 2021-04-05T21:40:27Z moon-child: Nilby: that's what mezzano does. (Well, it compiles llvm to cl, i think) 2021-04-05T21:41:08Z Nilby: Right. I think that's the nicest way for Lisp to call C, since then you can use the Lisp debugger and tools. 2021-04-05T21:44:44Z Nilby: I think the free Lisps could do a better job of making calling C safe. The commerical Lisps seem to do better. 2021-04-05T21:46:50Z Alfr quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-05T21:50:26Z moon-child: I think there was another c compiler written in lisp. Not sure how much progress it had made. The mezzano thing I know was mature enough to run quake 2021-04-05T21:53:21Z wooden quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-05T21:55:01Z luna_is_here quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T21:56:26Z Helmholtz joined #lisp 2021-04-05T21:56:54Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-05T22:03:05Z Nilby: moon-child: maybe you're thinking of https://github.com/vsedach/Vacietis 2021-04-05T22:05:10Z wooden joined #lisp 2021-04-05T22:06:49Z ramHero joined #lisp 2021-04-05T22:08:00Z moon-child: I think that was it. Given some of the TODO items, it looks less far along than I thought 2021-04-05T22:10:40Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-05T22:10:47Z Kundry_Wag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-05T22:11:15Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2021-04-05T22:12:10Z maxwilli- joined #lisp 2021-04-05T22:12:41Z maxwilliamson quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-05T22:14:37Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-05T22:15:22Z jmercouris: that is incredibly impressive 2021-04-05T22:19:09Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-04-05T22:19:47Z mn3m quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-05T22:23:18Z karlosz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-05T22:25:14Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 28.0.50)) 2021-04-05T22:25:31Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-05T22:29:32Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-04-05T22:38:05Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-05T22:38:40Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-04-05T22:39:33Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-04-05T22:43:27Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-05T22:49:31Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Lesson learned 2021-04-06T01:46:00Z vv8 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-06T01:47:27Z gigamonkey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-06T01:48:01Z gigamonkey joined #lisp 2021-04-06T01:53:41Z gigamonkey quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-06T01:55:41Z hoz left #lisp 2021-04-06T01:57:43Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2021-04-06T01:59:48Z ikrabbe|2 joined #lisp 2021-04-06T02:02:55Z ikrabbe quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-06T02:12:23Z akoana left #lisp 2021-04-06T02:12:38Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-06T02:13:10Z Josh_2: I export a macro called 'pkv' from my main package and in a sub package, I use this macro extensively, this package has (use
) in its defpackage, why am I getting an error telling me that pkv isn't defined? 2021-04-06T02:14:53Z no-defun-allowed: Stupid question, use or :use? 2021-04-06T02:15:20Z Josh_2: :use 2021-04-06T02:15:59Z no-defun-allowed: I'm out of ideas then. 2021-04-06T02:16:00Z Bike: well, from that description it should work, so clearly there's some devil in the details 2021-04-06T02:16:11Z Bike: what particular error do you get? udnefined function? 2021-04-06T02:16:45Z Josh_2: yes 2021-04-06T02:17:00Z Bike: you might have to share source then 2021-04-06T02:18:01Z ramHero quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-06T02:27:06Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-04-06T02:34:18Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-06T02:38:26Z Josh_2: Well 2021-04-06T02:38:28Z Josh_2: what part? 2021-04-06T02:39:08Z White_Flame: are you (in-package ..) correctly? 2021-04-06T02:39:15Z Bike: the package definitions, i guess 2021-04-06T02:39:37Z White_Flame: (as a 2nd stupid question) 2021-04-06T02:40:20Z Josh_2: White_Flame: yes I have (defpackage .. ) then (in-package ..) after 2021-04-06T02:43:28Z Josh_2: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2374#2374 2021-04-06T02:49:05Z White_Flame: and matrix-moonbot has pkv? 2021-04-06T02:49:11Z _jrjsmrtn quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-06T02:49:14Z Josh_2: all the other functions work 2021-04-06T02:49:20Z Josh_2: Yes it works in all the other modules defined that way 2021-04-06T02:49:27Z White_Flame: and it's actually exported? 2021-04-06T02:49:29Z Josh_2: Yep 2021-04-06T02:49:30Z Bike: what is the definition of matrix-moonbot. 2021-04-06T02:50:13Z White_Flame: also ensure matrix-moonbot:pk tab-completes with a single colon 2021-04-06T02:50:31Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp 2021-04-06T02:50:32Z White_Flame: and/or (describe 'matrix-moonbot:pkv) 2021-04-06T02:51:19Z Josh_2: When I'm in the mm-module.jitsi it does 2021-04-06T02:51:49Z Josh_2: And then describing it while in that package it returns what I'd expect 2021-04-06T02:52:03Z Josh_2: 'pkv names a macro ... ' 2021-04-06T02:54:11Z White_Flame: single-colon, and it says it's exported? 2021-04-06T02:54:31Z Bike: and it actually exists? (macro-function 'pkv) in mm-module.jitsi returns something? 2021-04-06T02:55:40Z White_Flame: if you just C-c C-c an expression, instead of C-c C-k'ing the entire file, it might not have actually run the in-package. I've hit that on simple files 2021-04-06T02:55:43Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-04-06T02:55:51Z hineios6 joined #lisp 2021-04-06T02:57:03Z hineios quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-06T02:57:03Z hineios6 is now known as hineios 2021-04-06T02:57:36Z jeosol quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-04-06T02:57:58Z Josh_2: Okay I fixed 2021-04-06T02:58:12Z Josh_2: Turns out it was absolutely nothing to do with that package... 2021-04-06T02:58:29Z White_Flame: let me guess, pvk vs pkv? 2021-04-06T02:58:43Z Josh_2: nope, I was using pkv before it was defined in a class definition file 2021-04-06T02:58:56Z White_Flame: that'll do it 2021-04-06T02:59:07Z White_Flame: it's weird not to load the full contents of a package before loading another one, though 2021-04-06T03:00:35Z Josh_2: Now I have another odd issue 2021-04-06T03:01:18Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2021-04-06T03:01:26Z White_Flame: re beach 2021-04-06T03:02:48Z Alfr is now known as Guest98335 2021-04-06T03:02:49Z Guest98335 quit (Killed (cherryh.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))) 2021-04-06T03:02:53Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-04-06T03:07:04Z Josh_2: Okay 2021-04-06T03:08:44Z White_Flame: okey dokey 2021-04-06T03:08:46Z White_Flame: here we gokey 2021-04-06T03:09:15Z Josh_2: Fixed it 2021-04-06T03:09:28Z Josh_2: Man I got you all excited, sorry xD 2021-04-06T03:09:36Z thmprover quit (Quit: Goodnight, ladies, good night, sweet ladies, good night, good night) 2021-04-06T03:09:53Z White_Flame: don't get me wrong, I'm happier to debug my own code than someone else's ;) 2021-04-06T03:12:42Z Josh_2: Well I guess having to restart was a blessing in disguise 2021-04-06T03:13:10Z White_Flame: restarting fixes a lot, but doesn't always tell you where the problem is, especially if it's dynamically munged 2021-04-06T03:13:26Z White_Flame: in the latter, you want to poke in the currently messed up state 2021-04-06T03:14:29Z marusich quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-06T03:17:41Z skapate joined #lisp 2021-04-06T03:18:44Z Josh_2: In this case restarting brought up a few problems 2021-04-06T03:18:53Z Josh_2: I hadn't stopped the image for about a week 2021-04-06T03:19:00Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-06T03:19:01Z Josh_2: Best fix it now 2021-04-06T03:20:50Z moon-child: clhs loop 2021-04-06T03:20:50Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_loop.htm 2021-04-06T03:22:11Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-06T03:22:52Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-04-06T03:36:11Z huonib quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. 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I think an academic one might exist, but I am not sure 2021-04-06T13:31:41Z huonib: I am unsure if being dynamic requires a garbage collector... and I cannot find anything making that claim online 2021-04-06T13:34:06Z Krystof: I would not say that being dynamic requires a garbage collector 2021-04-06T13:34:44Z Krystof: As a concrete example, I would expect many Forths not to have a garbage collector 2021-04-06T13:35:43Z Bike: "dynamic" is a really vague term. 2021-04-06T13:35:43Z jackdaniel: put in your init (ext::disable-gc) and there you go, common lisp doesn't use the garbage collector ;-) 2021-04-06T13:36:00Z jackdaniel: don't expect it to work for long though 2021-04-06T13:36:29Z Krystof: I seem to recall stories about Lisp Machines needing to be power-cycled because they really really believed in tenure 2021-04-06T13:37:04Z Xach: I recently learned that Allegro has an operation "panify" to ensure that certain objects never grow old 2021-04-06T13:37:16Z Bike: heh. 2021-04-06T13:37:17Z Xach: (as in peter pan-ify) 2021-04-06T13:38:57Z paulj` joined #lisp 2021-04-06T13:38:59Z phantomics joined #lisp 2021-04-06T13:40:02Z paulj` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-06T13:40:34Z paulj` joined #lisp 2021-04-06T13:40:39Z jcowan: huonib: GC is what you do to the heap, and Forth has no heap, only two stacks. (Which at that is better than Fortran II, which has neither heap nor stack.) 2021-04-06T13:40:50Z jcowan: s/II/II or 66 2021-04-06T13:41:35Z paulj` quit (Client Quit) 2021-04-06T13:41:54Z paulj joined #lisp 2021-04-06T13:44:00Z phantomics: Here's a question, not sure if this is completely off the wall ridiculous or not: how practical would it be to create a dialect or DSL within CL that runs code without GC? Meaning inside the code written in this DSL, you would have to manually manage memory and there would be functions for that 2021-04-06T13:44:36Z phantomics: Seems like something that could aid in doing realtime apps in CL 2021-04-06T13:44:40Z Bike: it would be difficult for objects in a managed space to refer to objects in an unmanaged space and vice versa. though it's possible. i mean, most implementations can handle foreign pointers. 2021-04-06T13:45:18Z tetrahedron quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-06T13:45:19Z Bike: but if an object in unmanaged space has a pointer to an object in managed space, and the collector tries to move things, problems will happen 2021-04-06T13:45:59Z phantomics: Yeah, if CFFI is possible I'd think something like this should be, I don't know if CLs have any functions that let you turn off GC for objects created within a particular block of code 2021-04-06T13:47:41Z gigamonkey joined #lisp 2021-04-06T13:49:09Z Nilby: phantomics: When heavily using a C FFI objects you have to somewhat restrict yourself to such a dialect. Thank goodness for with- macros. There are also some foreign calls which necessitate turning off GC in some implementations. 2021-04-06T13:50:11Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-04-06T13:52:13Z Shinmera: The easiest way to prevent GC is to just not allocate. 2021-04-06T13:52:27Z gigamonkey quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-06T13:52:34Z Shinmera: And that's not even a joke. Allocate things once in a block, then manually recycle the objects. Presto, no GC. 2021-04-06T13:52:54Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-04-06T13:53:11Z Shinmera: You don't need a DSL or whatever for that, just a lot of restraint and a lot of annoying manual recycling, just when you manually malloc/free. 2021-04-06T13:53:20Z Shinmera: *just like 2021-04-06T13:54:12Z Bike: it might be nice if the compiler could help by flagging function calls that allocate, though. 2021-04-06T13:54:27Z Shinmera: For sure. Being able to see which functions are pure would be nice. 2021-04-06T13:54:54Z Shinmera: But not even a DSL can help with that (you can't know what's going to allocate without help from the compiler) 2021-04-06T13:55:05Z Bike: yeah. 2021-04-06T13:55:13Z Nilby: I seem to remember there was a CL that compiled to non-GC'd C code. 2021-04-06T13:56:19Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-06T13:57:06Z Nilby: and they reccommended just such restraint 2021-04-06T13:57:40Z Shinmera: One trick I've been making use of in Kandria recently is, since I know some things are going to run single-threaded, but I cannot stack-allocate certain complex objects, I can instead use load-time-value to create a local instance that'll be re-used. Certainly less handy and more dangerous than stack allocation, but it does the trick. 2021-04-06T13:57:44Z heisig joined #lisp 2021-04-06T13:58:17Z Bike: there have been a couple times when i've been like "i know, i'll do the l-t-v trick" and then remembered other threads exist. very sad 2021-04-06T13:58:24Z Shinmera: Yep :( 2021-04-06T13:58:44Z Bike: takes me back to learning C and failing to understand static 2021-04-06T13:58:50Z Shinmera: Heh 2021-04-06T13:58:57Z mfiano: Shinmera: Interesting. Can you link to one part of your code that does that? I'd like to see it in context. 2021-04-06T13:59:49Z phoe: what is the issue with l-t-v in a multithreaded context? race conditions, or also something else? 2021-04-06T14:00:09Z Bike: well we're talking specifically about using a load-time-value object 2021-04-06T14:00:16Z Shinmera: if two threads access the same function at the same time they'll use the same instance and thrash it 2021-04-06T14:00:18Z Bike: there's only one, so if multiple threads try to use it at the same time, problems 2021-04-06T14:00:23Z semz: Nilby, I recall something like that as well, but iirc it had a supremely ungoogleable name like CL- or something... 2021-04-06T14:00:33Z Bike: same reason you can't use static in reentrant C functions 2021-04-06T14:00:41Z phoe: yes, so what I expected 2021-04-06T14:00:47Z Shinmera: mfiano: https://gitea.tymoon.eu/shinmera/kandria/src/branch/master/toolkit.lisp#L335 and tvec/tv+ things. 2021-04-06T14:01:15Z Shinmera: mfiano: Excuse gitea's shitty indentation 2021-04-06T14:01:32Z Shinmera: mfiano: For hit I know the object is not going to escape or be cached, so I can avoid allocating more than one instance. 2021-04-06T14:01:44Z Shinmera: mfiano: And for tvecs I know they're used as temporary value stores. 2021-04-06T14:02:16Z Shinmera: I could potentially stack-allocate the vecs, but as 3d-vectors is set up it can't do that most of the time. 2021-04-06T14:02:29Z Shinmera: (that's one of the things I'd like to rectify for v2) 2021-04-06T14:02:41Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-06T14:02:54Z huonib quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-04-06T14:03:34Z mfiano: AH I have recently start stack-allocating some vectors in my collision detection codes, and some lexical variables cannot be stack allocated because they call c2mop:s-i-a or something. Was trying to figure out what I could do about it 2021-04-06T14:04:46Z heisig quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-06T14:05:41Z mfiano: But I did make it more manageable. I had a OBB struct with like 20 slots, mostly all for mutating temp variables. It was a mess lol. Now there's only 5, with 2 of them being an unfortunate temp variable 2021-04-06T14:09:35Z mister_m quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-06T14:10:27Z semz: Turns out I was thinking of CL_1 as defined by CLICC, but that does seem to have a GC, so probably a different project. 2021-04-06T14:11:33Z ech quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-06T14:13:22Z bgardner quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2021-04-06T14:13:42Z tetrahedron joined #lisp 2021-04-06T14:15:33Z beach: I define "dynamic language" as one with semantics defined by a suite of interactions. 2021-04-06T14:15:55Z beach: I use "interactive language" as a synonym. 2021-04-06T14:17:12Z epony quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-06T14:18:33Z Josh_2: Whats the sbcl function to drop into the top level repl? 2021-04-06T14:18:40Z epony joined #lisp 2021-04-06T14:20:25Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-04-06T14:21:29Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-06T14:22:07Z Xach: Josh_2: toplevel-init (not an external symbol) 2021-04-06T14:22:27Z tetrahedron quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-04-06T14:25:20Z Josh_2: Thanks 2021-04-06T14:27:00Z maxwilliamson quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-06T14:27:22Z jmercouris: anyone can think of a way of writing a function "string" -> unique number? 2021-04-06T14:27:29Z maxwilliamson joined #lisp 2021-04-06T14:27:38Z mfiano: hash it 2021-04-06T14:27:43Z Josh_2: ^ 2021-04-06T14:27:44Z jmercouris: hashes have collisions 2021-04-06T14:28:04Z phoe: so you want bignums 2021-04-06T14:28:20Z jmercouris: phoe: ? 2021-04-06T14:28:32Z phoe: you need bignums to encode arbitrary strings without collisions 2021-04-06T14:28:39Z jmercouris: I guess so 2021-04-06T14:28:57Z jmercouris: I would be considering each letter a number in base 26 2021-04-06T14:29:07Z jmercouris: in that kind of a straightforwards case 2021-04-06T14:29:10Z phoe: convert your string into a byte array, append the string's length to it, convert the result into an integer 2021-04-06T14:29:19Z jmercouris: hm, or that, that is much simpler 2021-04-06T14:29:20Z mfiano: (sxhash "foo") would probably be acceptable and not collide with 61 bits on SBCL 2021-04-06T14:29:35Z mfiano: 62* 2021-04-06T14:29:39Z jmercouris: let me start with the base problem actually 2021-04-06T14:29:43Z phoe: yes please 2021-04-06T14:29:47Z jmercouris: I want to make a mode, and represent it with a unique glyph in nyxt 2021-04-06T14:29:52Z jmercouris: I want to be able to do this automatically 2021-04-06T14:30:04Z phoe: mode, as in? 2021-04-06T14:30:11Z jmercouris: the modes the user has active 2021-04-06T14:30:12Z phoe: are we talking emacs-like modes? 2021-04-06T14:30:18Z phoe: major, minor modes, et cetera? 2021-04-06T14:30:22Z jmercouris: yes, like that 2021-04-06T14:30:31Z mister_m joined #lisp 2021-04-06T14:32:23Z phoe: my UX instincts are telling me that modes should provide some sort of taskbar-like icon that can then be displayed, but that's orthogonal to your issue 2021-04-06T14:32:39Z jmercouris: you are correct 2021-04-06T14:32:44Z jmercouris: there is a glyph slot that the user can set 2021-04-06T14:32:48Z jmercouris: however, when it is NOT set, what to show? 2021-04-06T14:33:07Z phoe: that's not really a #lisp question I think :D you can try to use the first letter of the mode, or something 2021-04-06T14:33:22Z jmercouris: well it is a #lisp question in the sense that I want to go from string -> unique glyph 2021-04-06T14:33:33Z phoe: and provide more information when the user mouseovers above it 2021-04-06T14:33:37Z jmercouris: glyph can be a unicode value 2021-04-06T14:34:16Z phoe: sxhash is likely going to be good enough for your use case then 2021-04-06T14:34:23Z jmercouris: OK, thanks 2021-04-06T14:34:34Z phoe: I don't think you're going to have modes at a scale where collisions become likely 2021-04-06T14:34:48Z phoe: (mostly because you won't have enough screen to fit all those mode glyphs at once) 2021-04-06T14:34:51Z jmercouris: probably not, just my pedantic CS self thinking about it 11 2021-04-06T14:35:16Z Nilby: Websites, e.g. github, google docs, do this with random semi-unique user icons. 2021-04-06T14:38:14Z phoe: and, honestly, I think that providing icons and falling back to first letters of each mode name is going to be much better than generating tiny semirandom icons that users will need to memorize anyway before being able to use them well enough 2021-04-06T14:38:28Z phoe: but that's already UX zone 2021-04-06T14:38:28Z jmercouris: I think you're right phoe 2021-04-06T14:38:30Z jmercouris: I will do that 2021-04-06T14:38:31Z mister_m quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-06T14:39:04Z phoe: in the worst case the mode line will look like 2021-04-06T14:39:19Z phoe: "MmW🖊️" or something 2021-04-06T14:39:26Z jmercouris: lol, that would be something 2021-04-06T14:39:46Z phoe: and all I'm using there is three ASCII letters and one cursed unicode symbol 2021-04-06T14:40:58Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-04-06T14:41:13Z jmercouris: lol yeah 2021-04-06T14:41:25Z choegusung joined #lisp 2021-04-06T14:42:31Z dinnu93 joined #lisp 2021-04-06T14:44:45Z choegusung quit (Client Quit) 2021-04-06T14:45:46Z jackdaniel: some random mcclim hackery show off: http://turtleware.eu/static/paste/3337104a-showoff.webm 2021-04-06T14:46:09Z jackdaniel: what you see there is a normal clim application run in the browser (the hunchentoot acceptor is also a frame manager) 2021-04-06T14:49:11Z ech joined #lisp 2021-04-06T14:52:59Z alanz: jackdaniel, nice. Is there example code we can look at somewhere? 2021-04-06T14:55:28Z Josh_2: Well thats really cool jackdaniel 2021-04-06T14:55:32Z jackdaniel: not yet, but it is part of the manual for writing backends I'm working on 2021-04-06T14:55:40Z jackdaniel: so it will be public eventually 2021-04-06T14:55:56Z jackdaniel: (mind that no js is involved so far) 2021-04-06T14:56:09Z Josh_2: The less the better imo 2021-04-06T14:58:55Z Josh_2: I have dumped my lisp image and I'm now connecting to it using sly-connect. How do I get all the output to go through my connected repl instead of into the terminal that I started the image in? 2021-04-06T14:59:54Z klltkr quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-04-06T15:01:59Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2021-04-06T15:06:17Z jmercouris: Josh_2: i don’t believe you can, when you start sly the *inferior lisp* buffer is always pushing some messages 2021-04-06T15:06:35Z jmercouris: I think the problem is in the case of CFFI that is writing to stdout for example 2021-04-06T15:06:43Z jmercouris: Though I’m not entirely sure of the conditions 2021-04-06T15:07:10Z jackdaniel: Josh_2: try (setf (symbol-value '*standard-output*) your-sly-stream) 2021-04-06T15:07:41Z jmercouris: I don’t know if that will capture all messages 2021-04-06T15:07:53Z jmercouris: I’ve had C code evade that I believe 2021-04-06T15:08:54Z jackdaniel: I thought that we talk about common lisp 2021-04-06T15:09:52Z Josh_2: How do I find my sly stream? 2021-04-06T15:10:02Z jackdaniel: even when you start your lisp from emacs other processes that write to stdout will still write to stdout 2021-04-06T15:10:28Z jackdaniel: Josh_2: type (defparameter cl-user::*my-stream* *standard-output*) in sly repl 2021-04-06T15:12:44Z Josh_2: well 2021-04-06T15:13:23Z Josh_2: maybe I should just deal with the output being in my terminal 2021-04-06T15:19:10Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-06T15:19:31Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2021-04-06T15:20:42Z mister_m joined #lisp 2021-04-06T15:26:13Z silasfox quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-06T15:38:04Z phoe: Bike: regarding the l-t-v trick, l-t-v CLHS page states that the object is treated as a literal; doesn't mutating it invoke UB then? 2021-04-06T15:38:25Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-04-06T15:39:29Z mfiano: I asked Shinmera the same thing 2021-04-06T15:42:22Z Shinmera: It sure does, but there's no incentive for it to not just work the way you expect it to. 2021-04-06T15:43:19Z mfiano: I think we all know we can't assume programmers to make sound decisions all the time. I can't guarantee an implementation won't be doing something funky, or my current implementation some time in the future. 2021-04-06T15:43:37Z jackdaniel: (pushnew :lean-and-mean *features*) 2021-04-06T15:44:41Z phoe: I guess an implementation could go ahead and define that behavior as possible and useful, then 2021-04-06T15:44:49Z Shinmera: sure. 2021-04-06T15:45:32Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-04-06T15:46:50Z Nilby: But there's an incentive as an implementation developer to have popular software run on your implementation. 2021-04-06T15:46:52Z mfiano: Might want to wrap that pattern up in a macro just to have a search point and a single place for a big comment. 2021-04-06T15:46:56Z _death: if I understand it correctly, the compiler treats it as a literal object, but it's still modifiable by the user, as long as read-only is nil, as the preceding paragraph says 2021-04-06T15:48:26Z phoe: yes, I can see that it is being confusing; generally, "modifiable data" and "literal object" should be disjoint sets 2021-04-06T15:49:25Z zulu-inuoe joined #lisp 2021-04-06T15:50:09Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-04-06T15:50:10Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-04-06T15:51:02Z phoe: and the specification is not very clear here 2021-04-06T15:51:20Z _death: literal here means it's "referenced directly in a program rather than being computed by the program".. I think it means the form is only evaluated once 2021-04-06T15:53:20Z Nilby: I think the Lisp aesthetic is to no have unmodifiable that exists. 2021-04-06T15:53:39Z Nilby: unmodifiable data that is 2021-04-06T15:55:01Z Shinmera: My favourite lisp aesthetic is being fast in the face of adversity. This includes having unmodifiable things at times. 2021-04-06T15:55:44Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-04-06T15:56:30Z hypercube joined #lisp 2021-04-06T15:59:12Z pjb: Shinmera: in general, compiled code is immutable. 2021-04-06T15:59:15Z Nilby: If it doesn't exist because it's optimized away, or it's existence is temporary, sure, but if you break in the debugger at the just right place, it's modifiable. I can accept things intentionally protected by memory barriers and such. It's also happens to be the aesthetic of assembly code. 2021-04-06T15:59:16Z pjb: :-) 2021-04-06T15:59:34Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-06T15:59:49Z pjb: Nilby: code is data ;-) 2021-04-06T16:00:21Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-04-06T16:00:33Z Nilby: I agree and I think compiled code should be modifiable. 2021-04-06T16:01:34Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-04-06T16:03:26Z long4mud quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-06T16:04:06Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-04-06T16:05:00Z _death: (setf (aref (code-vector #'sleep) 0) #xC3) 2021-04-06T16:05:13Z _death: makes your programs faster :) 2021-04-06T16:05:31Z Nilby: _death: Exactly! or even (setf (aref (disassemble #'cdr) 23) '(:pop :rsp)) 2021-04-06T16:05:34Z jmercouris: how can my object have two slots of the same name??? 2021-04-06T16:05:46Z jmercouris: http://dpaste.com/775L8DQAP 2021-04-06T16:05:50Z jmercouris: Glyph appears TWICE! 2021-04-06T16:05:51Z pjb: Nilby: it is not necessary. Non-controlled systems want to put the code in read-only memory to avoid exploits. Controlled systems want to prevent write access (and sometimes even read-access) to the code to ensure control and security. And in lisp we can always modify the source sexp and recompile. 2021-04-06T16:06:14Z phoe: jmercouris: what packages are those slot names from 2021-04-06T16:06:30Z jmercouris: damnit you are right phoe 2021-04-06T16:06:30Z epony: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return-oriented_programming challenges that Apr06 1559 Shinmera: in general, compiled code is immutable. 2021-04-06T16:06:44Z pjb: jmercouris: (setf *print-readably* t) (inspect x)? 2021-04-06T16:07:03Z davisr_ joined #lisp 2021-04-06T16:07:16Z pjb: epony: of course, there are nice hacks possible when you can modify the code. Also, instruction caches want to avoid it. 2021-04-06T16:07:19Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-04-06T16:07:39Z pjb: jmercouris: export and use it, or qualify it in the subclass. 2021-04-06T16:07:56Z jmercouris: I'll export it 2021-04-06T16:08:31Z pjb: jmercouris: note: you could perhaps use :default-initargs to avoid having to redefine the slot in the subclass? 2021-04-06T16:08:52Z jmercouris: pjb: cannot do, the whole point is the slot /must/ redefine the value 2021-04-06T16:09:00Z jmercouris: s/slot/subclass 2021-04-06T16:09:11Z pjb: With an :initarg, you can specify a value for a slot. 2021-04-06T16:09:21Z davisr quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-06T16:09:22Z jmercouris: I am aware of that, but it must change PER subclass 2021-04-06T16:09:22Z pjb: With a :defaultinitarg you can do that by default for all make-instance calls. 2021-04-06T16:09:26Z VincentVega joined #lisp 2021-04-06T16:09:27Z pjb: +- 2021-04-06T16:09:37Z jmercouris: 1 2021-04-06T16:09:38Z jmercouris: indeed 2021-04-06T16:09:43Z phoe: superclass: (:default-initargs :foo (alexandria:required-argument :foo)) 2021-04-06T16:09:49Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-04-06T16:09:50Z phoe: subclass: (:default-initargs :foo 42) 2021-04-06T16:14:01Z gitgood joined #lisp 2021-04-06T16:18:37Z long4mud joined #lisp 2021-04-06T16:18:43Z Nilby: pjb: Yes, I agree it's not necessary, but still useful. I think it's basically game over for security if something can control Lisp code, but in some way beach's idea of top level first class environments is like having virtual lisp machines. I would like to think it could include hardware level protection, so that memory address and compiled code could still be safely modifiable. 2021-04-06T16:19:52Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-06T16:21:19Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-06T16:21:46Z _death: Nilby: you can do it today with implementation and platform specific means 2021-04-06T16:23:13Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-04-06T16:26:06Z pjb: Nilby: it is a choice: either you allow modifiable code, and then you need a system like unix with separate addressing spaces and crashes, or you prevent modifiable code, and even you prevent generating code vectors by random code, only compilers authorized by the system are allowed to produce code that is guaranteed not to crash, and then you can avoid the separate addressing space and use capabilities, environments and have bet 2021-04-06T16:26:07Z pjb: security. 2021-04-06T16:28:56Z Nilby: I guess I'm imagining I could have both, without crashing an O/S layer. 2021-04-06T16:33:38Z Nilby: I guess I'll have to wait for a portable with-lisp-vm that doesn't do something horrible like linux containers. 2021-04-06T16:36:18Z _death: namespaces/cgroups are kinda simple though.. just need a lisp library to wrap'em 2021-04-06T16:37:37Z davisr__ joined #lisp 2021-04-06T16:40:33Z davisr_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-06T16:40:49Z Nilby: _death: I don't feel like cgroups are simple: ls -R /sys/fs/cgroup/ | wc -l => over 6000! 2021-04-06T16:41:27Z Nilby: er, actually over 14k! 2021-04-06T16:43:23Z Nilby: Please forgive me for typing unix code in #lisp :( 2021-04-06T16:47:29Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-04-06T16:48:45Z norsxa joined #lisp 2021-04-06T16:49:51Z norsxa quit (Client Quit) 2021-04-06T16:50:04Z raeda quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-06T16:50:06Z zaquest quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-06T16:50:34Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-04-06T16:51:30Z norsxa joined #lisp 2021-04-06T16:54:34Z silasfox joined #lisp 2021-04-06T16:57:16Z Bike: phoe: if read-only-p is false, modifying load-time-value objects is fine 2021-04-06T16:57:16Z aartaka_d quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-06T16:57:23Z Bike: "it must be considered to be potentially modifiable data" 2021-04-06T16:57:27Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-04-06T16:58:52Z Bike: it's not ub 2021-04-06T16:59:33Z _death: Nilby: do they all have ad-hoc semantics? 2021-04-06T17:00:18Z gigamonkey joined #lisp 2021-04-06T17:01:16Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-04-06T17:02:12Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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"treated like a literal object at runtime" is a bit vague. i think it's mainly just emphasizing that the form is only evaluated once. 2021-04-06T17:49:43Z phoe: yes 2021-04-06T17:49:49Z phoe: that's the part that confused me 2021-04-06T17:50:42Z Bike: ltv is one of those things that didn't really make any sense to me until i implemented it 2021-04-06T17:50:54Z Bike: and even now it can confuse me at times 2021-04-06T17:51:10Z phoe: l-t-v is a thing that didn't make sense to me until I actually needed to use it 2021-04-06T17:51:54Z Bike: the really involved part is all the cycle detection and ordering of load time evaluations 2021-04-06T17:52:09Z Bike: it's kind of a lot of work for the compiler writer but programmers don't usually think about it 2021-04-06T17:53:31Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-04-06T17:54:36Z pjb: There's still ordering freedom left to the compiler. the order of the l-t-v forms is not specified IIRC. 2021-04-06T17:54:46Z zaquest quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-06T17:55:00Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-06T17:59:41Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-06T18:01:44Z _death: Bike: after thinking about it more, it's not just that it's evaluated once, but also that the object is returned as-is, not, say, copied (according to some definition of copied) 2021-04-06T18:03:23Z Bike: in some way making it non-eq? i suppose so 2021-04-06T18:07:04Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-06T18:07:52Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-04-06T18:11:05Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-04-06T18:12:50Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-04-06T18:12:52Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-04-06T18:27:12Z dinnu93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-06T18:27:21Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-04-06T18:31:46Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I've been trying everything I can think of: https://gist.github.com/mfiano/66c0c1897c190e68438d405f604ddb20 2021-04-06T20:54:39Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2021-04-06T20:55:17Z lawt joined #lisp 2021-04-06T20:58:49Z _death: (values (floor (floor x) y)) ? 2021-04-06T20:58:49Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-04-06T21:00:25Z _death: I'm not sure you want to compute that.. 2021-04-06T21:01:32Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-04-06T21:02:47Z mfiano: _death: I'm trying to rasterize a 3D cuboid volume to see which cubed grid cells it touches. Here is the real code https://gist.github.com/mfiano/eba07f48c2285a47fa0685713a1f2495 2021-04-06T21:02:58Z wsinatra quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-04-06T21:04:13Z mfiano: Those #'map's are there because min1/max1 will be inputs to the function later on, and are required to be (simple-array single-float (3)) 2021-04-06T21:04:39Z mfiano: This test code should be printing lists of fixnums, not floats 2021-04-06T21:05:02Z vv8 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-06T21:05:52Z cosimone quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 28.0.50)) 2021-04-06T21:09:09Z ech quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-06T21:09:17Z mfiano: Also what did you mean by "not sure"? 2021-04-06T21:10:45Z _death: in your first gist, you have assert -1.0 < x < 1.0 so result will always be -1 or 0 2021-04-06T21:11:44Z mfiano: Yes, the actual domain doesn't matter...just has to be small enough for the result to be fixnumable 2021-04-06T21:12:36Z mfiano: So is it the case that the 2-arity floor is just missing a transform, or is there a better reason it didn't work? 2021-04-06T21:17:06Z mfiano: It seems if I assert with (assert (< #.(float (expt -10f0 9) 1f0) x #.(float (expt 10f0 18) 1f0))) your version works. Curious why such the unsymmetrical domain 2021-04-06T21:18:02Z mfiano: increasing lower or upper more fails 2021-04-06T21:19:39Z _death: well, (truly-the (unsigned-byte 32) (floor (the (single-float 0.0 65535.0) x) cell-size)) in the second gist (after fixing malformed syntax) seems to give no note 2021-04-06T21:19:50Z _death: (and it should actually be 65536.0) 2021-04-06T21:20:08Z mfiano: or in base 2, exponents 19 and 61 respectively 2021-04-06T21:21:08Z heisig joined #lisp 2021-04-06T21:21:19Z ech joined #lisp 2021-04-06T21:22:13Z mfiano: You are right 2021-04-06T21:22:34Z mfiano: I don't use truly-the though. 2021-04-06T21:22:56Z _death: not sure how to do without it 2021-04-06T21:23:16Z mfiano: I demonstrated above 2021-04-06T21:23:20Z mfiano: It's ugly but it works 2021-04-06T21:24:33Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-06T21:25:18Z mfiano: (lambda (x) (declare ((u:f32 #.(expt -2f0 19) #.(expt 2f0 61)) x)) (floor (floor x) cell-size)) 2021-04-06T21:25:31Z mfiano: u:f32 being just a short alias for single-float 2021-04-06T21:27:26Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-04-06T21:29:03Z cosimone quit (Client Quit) 2021-04-06T21:29:31Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-04-06T21:31:31Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-06T21:32:22Z mfiano: Yeah i'm not sure what SBCL is doing. Should be 24 bits of precision and 128 bits of range 2021-04-06T21:32:27Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-06T21:36:37Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: why are there constant page loads in your demo? why not utilize ajax? 2021-04-06T21:36:53Z jmercouris: is the goal to run mcclim in a browser that does not support javascript? 2021-04-06T21:38:26Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-04-06T21:39:02Z mfiano: he's probably using broadway 2021-04-06T21:39:21Z mfiano: or something 2021-04-06T21:40:19Z heisig quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-06T21:41:51Z jmercouris: that would make sense 2021-04-06T21:42:00Z jmercouris: I was also thinking maybe a webgl surface or something earlier 2021-04-06T21:42:31Z Krystof: mfiano: I think the issue is that your divisor range includes 0 2021-04-06T21:43:07Z mfiano: Krystof: I don't understand 2021-04-06T21:43:21Z mfiano: Also it looks like the lower bound is restricted to _odd_ exponents <= 19 2021-04-06T21:43:44Z Krystof: your type for y in (floor x y) includes 0 2021-04-06T21:43:53Z mfiano: ohhh 2021-04-06T21:44:00Z scymtym: mfiano: no, the broadway backend is separate 2021-04-06T21:44:31Z Krystof: I think SBCL is not being very smart about the fact that it includes 0, but you should probably exclude 0 if you can 2021-04-06T21:44:45Z mfiano: certainly 2021-04-06T21:44:49Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-06T21:44:51Z mfiano: let me try that and see what i get 2021-04-06T21:45:09Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-06T21:45:09Z Krystof: (defun baz (x y) 2021-04-06T21:45:09Z Krystof: (declare (type (single-float (-1.0) (1.0)) x) (type (and (integer (0)) (unsigned-byte 8)) y) 2021-04-06T21:45:09Z Krystof: (optimize speed)) 2021-04-06T21:45:09Z Krystof: (floor x y)) 2021-04-06T21:46:24Z mfiano: Seems to still have the weird unbalanced domain 2021-04-06T21:46:43Z mfiano: odd exponents <= 19 for low end, and any <= 61 for high 2021-04-06T21:46:53Z scymtym: seems like a good time to plug https://github.com/scymtym/sbcl-ir-visualizer again. it shows derived types of intermediate results among other things 2021-04-06T21:46:59Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 28.0.50)) 2021-04-06T21:48:47Z jmercouris: scymtym: what can we do with this? 2021-04-06T21:48:59Z jmercouris: performance optimization? 2021-04-06T21:49:03Z jmercouris: SBCL development? 2021-04-06T21:49:44Z scymtym: jmercouris: both. you can type in a lambda expression and investigate how SBCL processes it under different optimization policies 2021-04-06T21:49:47Z jmercouris: It is a cool project, don't get me wrong, just wondering what intent you had when developing it 2021-04-06T21:50:02Z jmercouris: I see 2021-04-06T21:50:23Z phoe: I'd place $5 that the intent was introspection into the SBCL compilation and IR generation process 2021-04-06T21:50:43Z phoe: better to work with things when they're laid out spatially 2021-04-06T21:50:50Z jmercouris: phoe: that was the outcome, was that the intent? 2021-04-06T21:51:02Z phoe: s/place/bet/ 2021-04-06T21:51:12Z phoe: let's see if I lose my five bucks 2021-04-06T21:52:12Z zigpaw107613 quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2021-04-06T21:52:28Z zigpaw107613 joined #lisp 2021-04-06T21:52:39Z Krystof: mfiano: I don't understand what you mean by unbalanced domain. Example? 2021-04-06T21:52:50Z mfiano: Krystof: One moment 2021-04-06T21:53:05Z scymtym: phoe is right since he described what the program does and i made it do that intentionally. but i'm not sure where this discussion is supposed to go 2021-04-06T21:54:43Z mfiano: Krystof: Shall we take this to #sbcl? 2021-04-06T21:55:10Z Krystof: maybe to a mailing list; I'm about to go to bed 2021-04-06T21:55:53Z Krystof: or you can (trace :encapsulate nil sb-c::floor-derive-type-optimizer sb-c::floor-quotient-bound) to find what's not giving you the right answer 2021-04-06T21:56:11Z Krystof: SBCL is a bit conservative about its lower bound to floor in the presence of floating point arithmetic 2021-04-06T22:00:07Z hendursaga quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-06T22:00:32Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-04-06T22:06:31Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-04-06T22:11:39Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-06T22:14:10Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-06T22:16:47Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-06T22:17:02Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-04-06T22:18:09Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-06T22:21:27Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-06T22:24:41Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-06T22:25:07Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-04-06T22:26:01Z Feldman quit (Client Quit) 2021-04-06T22:26:38Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-04-06T22:29:10Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-04-06T22:33:18Z sveit joined #lisp 2021-04-06T22:33:50Z simplegauss joined #lisp 2021-04-06T22:34:31Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-06T22:36:06Z lotuseater quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-04-06T22:37:07Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-06T22:37:31Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-04-06T22:42:03Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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What's up? 2021-04-07T05:02:07Z alandipert: not a whole lot, you? 2021-04-07T05:03:39Z beach: Same here. I am working on implementing my idea for a register-allocation algorithm. And, as usual, I got the abstractions wrong the first few times, so more work than the idea should have generated. 2021-04-07T05:04:11Z beach: I think I must find a way to delegate the implementation of my ideas. 2021-04-07T05:04:41Z beach: So far, I have had more ideas per time unit than I have time to implement, so there is a fairly large backlog. 2021-04-07T05:06:43Z davisr__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-07T05:07:06Z davisr__ joined #lisp 2021-04-07T05:10:47Z alandipert: ah i know what you mean. i'm perpetually in the same boat with my various (and less impressive) projects 2021-04-07T05:11:46Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: the reason is because the goal of this proof of concept wasn't to have reload-less page - I didn't need javascript yet 2021-04-07T05:12:09Z jackdaniel: mfiano: there are no dependencies outside of cl the world (except for hand-written css file) 2021-04-07T05:12:54Z jackdaniel: the final thing will have three types of frame handlers: static (get/post), ajax-based for one-way updates, and a dynamic one with websockets 2021-04-07T05:13:07Z lawt quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-07T05:14:15Z ikrabbe|2 is now known as ikrabbe 2021-04-07T05:22:12Z beach: alandipert: But you work for a private company. Usually, in that world you can convince someone to invest money if the idea is a good one, and then you can hire someone to do it. No? 2021-04-07T05:23:47Z sauvin joined #lisp 2021-04-07T05:26:57Z beach: alandipert: That's one problem I have with academia. What is considered a good idea, and thus subject to funding, is a complicated set of considerations like nation-wide or union-wide "strategies", and (above all) fads. 2021-04-07T05:26:59Z alandipert: well, i'm freelance currently and so have clients with disparate needs, so for my longer term and more conceptual bets, i'm the investor 2021-04-07T05:27:11Z beach: Oh, I see. 2021-04-07T05:29:12Z beach: I think I have another problem with my ideas. It might be possible at this point to start some crowdfunding effort for my projects, but I don't know how to find people who are both available and qualified. 2021-04-07T05:29:35Z alandipert: yes, i have enough friends and family in academia to be acutely aware of how difficult it can be to inhabit 2021-04-07T05:29:56Z moon-child: beach: I don't think industry is worse than academia in that respect. I daresay industry usually involves a more perverse (if consistent) set of incentives 2021-04-07T05:30:20Z beach: moon-child: That's my point, yes. 2021-04-07T05:30:43Z alandipert: i find industry incomparable to academic, but i've personally spent little time in academia, and understand there are many variables 2021-04-07T05:30:44Z beach: I would have to gather enough funding to convince a qualified person to quit the current dayjob, and that is very unlikely to happen. 2021-04-07T05:30:59Z moon-child: beach: err, I meant to say, I don't think industry is better than academia in that respect 2021-04-07T05:31:06Z beach: Oh! 2021-04-07T05:31:51Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-07T05:32:48Z moon-child: (although, I don't have personal experience with academia. So I may be mistaken. Grass is greener and all that) 2021-04-07T05:33:49Z beach: I have worked both in industry and academia, though mostly in academia. But you may be right, my memory of industry may no longer be accurate. 2021-04-07T05:34:32Z alandipert: beach perhaps you could gather enough funding to quit your own current dayjob? 2021-04-07T05:34:49Z beach: That would be very very stupid. 2021-04-07T05:35:19Z beach: 1. I have 10 months to retirement. 2. My dayjob allows me to work full time on my projects already. 2021-04-07T05:36:02Z alandipert: ah. clearly your best bet is to never retire :-> 2021-04-07T05:36:48Z beach: That is unfortunately not an option. French law makes it impossible to continue after this date. 2021-04-07T05:37:29Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-07T05:38:39Z beach: What we need is another J. C. R. Licklider. 2021-04-07T05:39:36Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-04-07T05:39:40Z alandipert: regarding the scarcity of qualified help, you might consider how to market the project to those outside of the lisp community (although i understand at least with regard to paper abstracts, you're averse to that, and for good reasons) 2021-04-07T05:40:44Z beach: What would be the advantage? It would require some significant training to get those people to be of any use, no? 2021-04-07T05:42:41Z alandipert: well, there are vastly more programmers outside lisp than inside. and i posit good/experienced outside people usually learn lisp quickly once interested, and can have enough experience to appreciate its advantages in a way that neophytes cannot 2021-04-07T05:43:01Z alandipert: the important part being, "once interested" 2021-04-07T05:43:10Z beach: Yes, I see. 2021-04-07T05:43:37Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-04-07T05:47:28Z opcode joined #lisp 2021-04-07T05:50:29Z Nilby: I think it's hard to get availible and highly qualified Lisp programmers to do what you want without the coercion of employment. I think there's quite a numer who live in post-scarcity and are available, but would need a mighty big carrot. 2021-04-07T05:51:08Z beach: alandipert: I am not averse to that. I just have no idea how to make such a thing happen. 2021-04-07T05:52:00Z beach: Nilby: I suspect that even with employment, it would be hard to get them to do what I want. :) 2021-04-07T05:53:11Z Nilby: Yes. Quite. 2021-04-07T05:54:39Z Nilby: I think the old Lisp companies somehow had a magic mixture of employment coercion and shared goals and belief in the work. 2021-04-07T05:55:06Z Nilby: And a bunch of already qualified very talented people. 2021-04-07T05:55:36Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-07T05:56:31Z White_Flame: and a mixture of government contractor money 2021-04-07T05:56:44Z lawt joined #lisp 2021-04-07T05:58:23Z Nilby: White_Flame: Sadly, yes, that's what seemed to make it possible and then pulled the rug out. 2021-04-07T05:59:41Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-07T06:05:09Z _paul0 joined #lisp 2021-04-07T06:07:41Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-07T06:07:46Z pjb: beach: well, in the current paradigm, the way to make qualified and talented people do your bid is by having a lot of money. You can have a lot of money by earning it, eg. starting a web software company like Zip2, selling it, with the money, starting up an online bank like Paypal, selling it, and with the money start up a company to build and sell EV cars, another to build rockets to go to Mars, and another to dig tunnels to run 2021-04-07T06:07:46Z pjb: cars and dig habitats on Mars. 2021-04-07T06:08:33Z pjb: beach: an alternative paradigm is proposed by Bernard Frio (quite intersting), but unfortunately, we're far from achieving such a system... (even if, as he argues, we already had half of it). 2021-04-07T06:08:47Z paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-07T06:08:49Z pjb: beach: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Friot 2021-04-07T06:09:47Z pjb: beach: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3g-A25BE2w&list=PLysam5vv8eGfHsIU3iQtRgnALGs0fdD1g 2021-04-07T06:10:24Z pjb: beach: note that this gives you a hint on how to gather work force around your project: don't aim at newbies, but at retired programmers! 2021-04-07T06:10:39Z pjb: Which in the case of a lisp project, is not a bad idea after all… 2021-04-07T06:10:41Z Mandus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-07T06:10:47Z beach: Sure. 2021-04-07T06:10:59Z silasfox joined #lisp 2021-04-07T06:11:24Z beach: They would be amply qualified, and they don't need to spend all day making money to feed the family. 2021-04-07T06:11:49Z pjb: The quantity of retired programmers should increase a lot in the next years… 2021-04-07T06:12:39Z pjb: (or you can also win the lotto, and just start up a lisp company). 2021-04-07T06:15:28Z beach: First time I hear of Barnard Friot. I'll certainly read more. 2021-04-07T06:17:05Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-04-07T06:20:44Z beach: Anyway, my current strategy is to do the implementation work myself, hoping to get to a native executable SICL system not too far in the future. Once that is done, I hope to see more interest in helping out by people who are both qualified and available. I have no idea whether this strategy will work, of course. 2021-04-07T06:23:51Z Nilby: I'm hoping that there may some kind of convergence in the Lisp community when some of the various projects that people have been working on for years might be able to used a more cohesive whole. 2021-04-07T06:25:40Z beach: Nilby: That was one of the things I hoped to achieve with the SICL project. I secretly hoped to create high-quality "modules" that would then be adopted by existing Common Lisp implementations. I now think that hope was unfounded. 2021-04-07T06:28:04Z no-defun-allowed: Looking further in time when we may ask the same questions for CLOSOS (though there is surely a similar pressure for beach's more immediate projects), I am aware that programmers around my age are also often fed up with current compilers, operating systems and so on, but discussing the proposed solutions and projects leads to "knee-jerk" reactions #lisp participants may be familiar with. 2021-04-07T06:28:48Z Nilby: I'm not sure it's unfounded, it's might just take longer, since implementations necessarily have to be quite conservative. 2021-04-07T06:29:00Z beach: One thing that has a chance of success though is McCLIM. It is maintained and developed by a bunch of good people. It is quickly becoming the best choice for Common Lisp GUI code, as opposed to FFI solutions. 2021-04-07T06:29:15Z no-defun-allowed: For the most part, I believe there are people with time, but funding them and encouraging them to act on their complaints are very hard. (Though, of course, not everyone wants to write a compiler or operating system or whatever else, and that's fine too.) 2021-04-07T06:29:25Z beach: Nilby: I hope you are right. 2021-04-07T06:30:18Z beach: no-defun-allowed: Yes, it is very hard to get the message across to people with a long-term investment in more traditional technology. 2021-04-07T06:31:12Z no-defun-allowed: Instead what I see is people saying self-deprecating things like "computers were a mistake" and generally just sticking to small changes. The latter would be rational, but both make me sad. 2021-04-07T06:31:51Z beach: How strange. 2021-04-07T06:32:54Z beach: What is very surprising to me is that people write end-user applications in a language such as C++. I am thinking of things like MuseScore. 2021-04-07T06:33:08Z beach: I guess Firefox would qualify as well. 2021-04-07T06:33:34Z no-defun-allowed: beach: I'm not sure how long "a long-term investment" is, but they don't have much in the way of investments. I suppose they are used to some technologies, but they are often hobbyists with lots of spare time, and some groups iterate through many libraries and frameworks and whatnot relatively quickly. 2021-04-07T06:33:57Z beach: I am less surprised about things like LLVM. They probably try to target existing system programmers. 2021-04-07T06:34:49Z beach: no-defun-allowed: I see. That make their attitude more puzzling. 2021-04-07T06:36:24Z beach: Though, even with LLVM, it would probably have been easier to write it in some high-level language with automatic memory management, and then provide bindings for C and C++, rather than the other way around. 2021-04-07T06:36:29Z no-defun-allowed: (My last attempt to change anyone's attitude was to be equally as mindlessly optimistic, trying to say that computers and programming could, in fact, be very fun. But the "mindless" part of that plan is a problem, when it is not the norm.) 2021-04-07T06:37:06Z beach: no-defun-allowed: "last" as in "final" or as in "latest"? 2021-04-07T06:37:55Z no-defun-allowed: "latest" 2021-04-07T06:43:18Z no-defun-allowed: I should try something else, but right now I am taking a break from that project (and any substantial programming work). 2021-04-07T06:44:26Z Nilby: I have to intersperse serious work with fun work or else I might get the same feeling. 2021-04-07T06:47:41Z no-defun-allowed: On the contrary, I think programming requires a creative process, and if one is able to follow their creative process without too many restraints, then it is probably fun. 2021-04-07T06:48:03Z beach: I know of only one way that (sometimes) works to convert people, and that does not come across as proselytizing, namely to try to do good work that in some way improves on the existing state of things. 2021-04-07T06:49:05Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-04-07T06:56:06Z no-defun-allowed: Though, if everyone I was referring to had acted on what they were saying, it is likely most of them are not going to work on the projects we are looking for help with. But I would be happy if they did just about anything. 2021-04-07T07:04:37Z elflng joined #lisp 2021-04-07T07:05:20Z hypercube quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-07T07:07:10Z hypercube joined #lisp 2021-04-07T07:12:11Z elflng_ joined #lisp 2021-04-07T07:15:08Z elflng_ quit (Client Quit) 2021-04-07T07:15:21Z elflng quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-07T07:15:36Z elflng_ joined #lisp 2021-04-07T07:16:01Z elflng_ is now known as elflng 2021-04-07T07:26:06Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-04-07T07:30:43Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-07T07:32:24Z fourier joined #lisp 2021-04-07T07:32:50Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2021-04-07T07:33:45Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2021-04-07T07:35:02Z motersen_ is now known as motersen 2021-04-07T07:36:30Z tgbugs quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-07T07:37:11Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-07T07:40:03Z pve joined #lisp 2021-04-07T07:43:23Z tgbugs joined #lisp 2021-04-07T07:45:08Z fourier quit (Changing host) 2021-04-07T07:45:08Z fourier joined #lisp 2021-04-07T07:50:50Z surabax joined #lisp 2021-04-07T07:51:52Z elflng quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-07T07:52:36Z elflng joined #lisp 2021-04-07T08:00:10Z splittist: I think the progress on SICL has been nothing short of amazing. Particularly when the offshoots - eclector etc. - are taken into account. And the talent it has attracted is impressive. 2021-04-07T08:01:55Z beach: Absolutely right. The independent modules have become impressive thanks to the qualified people who agreed to develop and maintain them. 2021-04-07T08:02:24Z heisig joined #lisp 2021-04-07T08:02:52Z beach: Not all those modules are excellent (yet). But I am convinced they will be. 2021-04-07T08:03:42Z beach: In my discussions, I was referring mainly to the SICL-specific code. 2021-04-07T08:04:10Z gitgood quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-07T08:05:59Z Codaraxis joined #lisp 2021-04-07T08:07:08Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-04-07T08:08:39Z Codaraxis_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-07T08:09:33Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-07T08:11:09Z Danishman joined #lisp 2021-04-07T08:12:47Z silasfox quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2021-04-07T08:17:47Z silasfox joined #lisp 2021-04-07T08:18:21Z hypercube: do you guys think Common Lisp will make a return to industry? 2021-04-07T08:19:30Z beach: Hard to say, given the sorry state of the software industry. 2021-04-07T08:19:33Z splittist: hypercube: I don't think it ever left. Perhaps it hasn't grown at the same rate as other (newer) languages, but there are pockets of lisp we rarely hear about. (Perhaps because it's in law enforcement and intelligence.) 2021-04-07T08:21:04Z splittist: When LAMBDA for Excel drops later this year, and joins the fairly recent LET, we can claim lisp IS the language of industry (: 2021-04-07T08:21:37Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-07T08:23:03Z hypercube: im pretty new to common lisp and got into it mainly through taking a scheme course at school, but im surprised that programming isnt done that way more 2021-04-07T08:23:39Z Nilby: splittist: for printfcl (printf "%+0.ld % .0d %+0.0ld" 0 0 0) is not entierly valid, but seems to differ from the C version. 2021-04-07T08:24:46Z beach: hypercube: It shouldn't surprise you if you know how programmers are trained and chosen, and how little management knows about software development in general. 2021-04-07T08:25:19Z beach: Then again, maybe you don't know that. 2021-04-07T08:25:57Z lukego: Hey what's the appropriate time to split code into a separate package? I only have a few KLOC of code and I'm feeling the urge to break this up into separate logical packages but I also have a feeling that's possibly just unproductive busy-work 2021-04-07T08:26:11Z hypercube: i guess i realize that students arent exposed to this paradigm at all in academia 2021-04-07T08:27:07Z splittist: Nilby: thanks - I'll have look. 2021-04-07T08:27:13Z beach: lukego: I break my code up into "modules", where each module resides in a directory, has an ASDF system definition, and a component (file) containing a package definition. 2021-04-07T08:27:39Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-07T08:28:17Z beach: lukego: I extract a module whenever I see a reasonable (usually CLOS-based) protocol emerging. 2021-04-07T08:28:27Z lukego: beach: thanks, I was looking for a reference example of that style, and see now SICL repo is such 2021-04-07T08:28:40Z beach: Indeed. 2021-04-07T08:28:47Z beach: There are plenty of examples in there. 2021-04-07T08:28:50Z no-defun-allowed: hypercube: It makes sense to me, given whoever runs the industry wants perhaps the opposite of people doing whatever they want (for the most part). 2021-04-07T08:29:01Z Nilby: splittist: I wrote a printf in a blub language and had some old test file around which I think I got from cygwin. 2021-04-07T08:29:13Z lukego: yeah I have the vague feeling that having everything in the same package is making it too easy to have murky interfaces that I am not thinking out 2021-04-07T08:29:53Z hypercube: no-defun-allowed: true 2021-04-07T08:30:26Z hypercube: do you have any recommendations if i want to get serious about common lisp programming? any good books or courses? 2021-04-07T08:30:35Z beach: lukego: Yes, that's the risk. Plus, now when we have package-local nicknames, having a package for each module is not a problem. 2021-04-07T08:30:53Z beach: minion: Please tell hypercube about PCL. 2021-04-07T08:30:54Z minion: hypercube: look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 2021-04-07T08:31:16Z lukego: hypercube: I think that Common Lisp is used in industry, mostly quietly in small groups, and seems likely to continue that way. maybe it's healthy that the amount of CL used in industry is driven by the number of geeks learning CL and looking for opportunities to work with it. better than e.g. if Gartner told the S&P500 they all need to adopt Lisp and the mess that would create. 2021-04-07T08:31:47Z beach: lukego: Well put! 2021-04-07T08:32:03Z hypercube: thank you beach! 2021-04-07T08:32:12Z beach: Pleasure. 2021-04-07T08:32:16Z beach: minion: Thanks! 2021-04-07T08:32:16Z minion: np 2021-04-07T08:32:36Z Nilby: I'm afraid industry would want to turn CL into Clojure or something. 2021-04-07T08:32:49Z splittist: Nilby: more tests always welcome! 2021-04-07T08:33:02Z moon-child: Nilby: let them eat cake! 2021-04-07T08:33:05Z hypercube: lukego: i suppose that's write 2021-04-07T08:33:08Z hypercube: right** 2021-04-07T08:33:52Z Nilby: moon-child: Yes. And stay out of my imaginary palace. 2021-04-07T08:34:13Z contrapunctus: .o("Get off of my cloud!") 2021-04-07T08:35:53Z lawt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-07T08:37:00Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-04-07T08:37:29Z vv8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-07T08:38:24Z supercoven joined #lisp 2021-04-07T08:40:51Z Nilby: splittist: here's some https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2376#2376 2021-04-07T08:41:25Z Nilby: splittist: They should be able to be read by your test code. 2021-04-07T08:41:59Z splittist: Nilby: awesome! 2021-04-07T08:44:58Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-04-07T08:45:41Z Shinmera: lukego: In my mind files are for the maintainer's organisational structure, and packages are for the user's organisational structure. If you don't have users, then it doesn't matter much, but as soon as you see a part that could stand on its own, it can be useful to extract it. 2021-04-07T08:46:06Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-04-07T08:49:35Z lukego: I'm mostly asking myself whether multiple package namespaces will be a plus or a minus e.g. using symbols like BGA-NAME verses BGA:NAME verses NAME. I'm a CLOS n00b here and it's already bothering me having the same symbol for unrelated slots of different classes e.g. NAME or ID. 2021-04-07T08:49:42Z splittist: With a sufficiently smart editing environment (tm) (and perhaps a sufficiently smart programmer...) files should be a backing detail, and the programmer should be looking at whichever 'view' of the code makes sense for the task at hand (e.g. methods grouped by function or by specialised argument) 2021-04-07T08:50:08Z Shinmera: lukego: I wouldn't let that bother me. It's fine. 2021-04-07T08:50:29Z rvirding quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2021-04-07T08:50:29Z theruran_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2021-04-07T08:50:29Z gendl quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2021-04-07T08:50:32Z beach: splittist: Indeed. Some people are working on such an environment. 2021-04-07T08:50:46Z Shinmera: lukego: But if you want to be stricter about it, as beach mentioned, design your protocols first, and separate them out into a package per protocol. 2021-04-07T08:50:59Z infra_red[m] quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2021-04-07T08:51:18Z lukego: splittist: but now you're describing the environment that I switched /away/ from to work in Lisp :-) i.e. GToolkit in Pharo Smalltalk 2021-04-07T08:51:32Z antoszka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2021-04-07T08:51:32Z shrysr_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2021-04-07T08:51:32Z stylewarning quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2021-04-07T08:51:32Z plisp2 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2021-04-07T08:52:58Z theruran_ joined #lisp 2021-04-07T08:53:05Z gendl joined #lisp 2021-04-07T08:53:22Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-07T08:53:23Z plisp2 joined #lisp 2021-04-07T08:53:29Z splittist: lukego: heh 2021-04-07T08:53:38Z lukego: splittist: but I'm not really in that school of thought -- I'm more into embracing the limitations of the file-based representation e.g. as a means of putting a narrative order onto code that is lost when you slice and dice it up 2021-04-07T08:53:48Z pyc quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in) 2021-04-07T08:53:58Z pyc joined #lisp 2021-04-07T08:54:11Z shrysr_ joined #lisp 2021-04-07T08:54:23Z stylewarning joined #lisp 2021-04-07T08:54:23Z Nilby: After using Pharo I appreciate files more. 2021-04-07T08:54:27Z terpri_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-07T08:54:34Z antoszka joined #lisp 2021-04-07T08:54:37Z splittist: lukego: fair enough. War and Peace v. Zork 2021-04-07T08:54:55Z terpri_ joined #lisp 2021-04-07T08:55:44Z Nilby: "narrative" is a good way to put it 2021-04-07T08:56:23Z terpri_ quit (Excess Flood) 2021-04-07T08:56:51Z terpri_ joined #lisp 2021-04-07T08:57:08Z lukego: also as an old-school DEFSTRUCT kind of Lisp hacker it bugs me a bit with CLOS - and indeed with Smalltalk - that `M-.' doesn't hop you straight to the code you want but rather makes you scroll through to the relevant method even though that's usually painfully obvious to you as a programmer. but for better or worse I'm CLOS'ing this project 2021-04-07T08:57:27Z lukego: Maybe that copy of AMOP that I ordered a month ago will turn up one day and then I'll share everyone else's enthusiasm for this stuff :) 2021-04-07T09:00:38Z Nilby: Maybe we need a version of `M-.' that does compute-applicable-methods. 2021-04-07T09:02:38Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-07T09:02:59Z Shinmera: it would need to know the type of the arguments, which is usually not available because inference around CLOS is weak. 2021-04-07T09:03:49Z rvirding joined #lisp 2021-04-07T09:04:23Z lukego: I'd like to have a DWIM version of `M-.' that jumps to some dynamic but predictable place e.g. the most recent method actually invoked from the callsite where I pressed `C-u M-.' 2021-04-07T09:04:31Z scymtym: you would also need COMPUTE-APPLICABLE-METHODS-USING-TYPES 2021-04-07T09:11:40Z scymtym: the DREI common lisp syntax has some interesting ideas about semantics-aware editing regarding completion and "undefining": https://github.com/McCLIM/McCLIM/blob/master/Libraries/Drei/lisp-syntax-swine.lisp#L434 (too bad that the more abstract parts are mixed up with the editing functionality) 2021-04-07T09:14:19Z infra_red[m] joined #lisp 2021-04-07T09:14:27Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-04-07T09:14:59Z lukego: (actually it could be an interesting form of "JIT" if SBCL would compile two copies of a function, one with lots of instrumentation for debugging and editing and so on and one without, and then enable the fast one only when it's actually "running hot") 2021-04-07T09:15:51Z beach: lukego: http://metamodular.com/SICL/sicl-debugging.pdf 2021-04-07T09:15:56Z lukego: Or maybe I'm dreaming of the Bad Old SBCL that had an interpreter that it used sometimes 2021-04-07T09:16:20Z lukego: ha! 2021-04-07T09:16:56Z lukego: I think I've asked this before but it's way too early to do real development in a SICL-hosted-on-SBCL, right? 2021-04-07T09:17:07Z no-defun-allowed: A JIT would still instrument in order to know when to give up on an optimisation, and a good one would still preserve semantics of the slow code. 2021-04-07T09:17:30Z beach: lukego: Yes, that will not be the goal of that environment. 2021-04-07T09:18:07Z h4ck3r9696 joined #lisp 2021-04-07T09:18:08Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-04-07T09:18:56Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-07T09:19:10Z lukego: no-defun-allowed: I meant without the various downsides of a highly dynamic JIT i.e. you still compile the same statically optimized machine code ahead of time but you also have a slow/instrumented version that you can swap in whenever you like e.g. to say "the next time we run that function let's log how each method invocation is resolved and store that for reference by an M-. command" 2021-04-07T09:19:27Z hypercube quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-07T09:19:35Z lukego: beach: SICL is more about the long game of having a complete environment unto itself right? 2021-04-07T09:19:52Z beach: lukego: As opposed to what? 2021-04-07T09:20:47Z lukego: hosted inside another Lisp and used together e.g. SICL frontend over SBCL backend 2021-04-07T09:21:08Z beach: Oh, yes, definitely a complete environment. 2021-04-07T09:22:27Z lukego: (aside: it's remarkable how much instrumentation you can put into machine code on modern out-of-order CPUs without having much impact on performance e.g. conditional branches to hooks that are speculated away by the CPU) 2021-04-07T09:23:36Z lukego: I need to start reading SBCL internals so that my ideas can be less uninformed 2021-04-07T09:24:03Z lukego: beach: SICL sounds great but as a humble practitioner I'm not sure how to connect it with anything I'm doing 2021-04-07T09:25:49Z scymtym joined #lisp 2021-04-07T09:25:50Z aartaka_d quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-07T09:26:01Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-04-07T09:33:59Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2021-04-07T09:34:37Z h4ck3r9696: I have a problem with usocket: sometimes, when I try to use wait-for-input, it throws an exception: "couldn't read from #: Connection reset by peer [Condition of type SB-INT:SIMPLE-STREAM-ERROR]". I don't think this is normal, but if it is, how can I fix this? 2021-04-07T09:36:43Z Shinmera: It means your connection was terminated. You "fix" it by either somehow having internet that never breaks, or handling the error and establishing a new connection. 2021-04-07T09:38:35Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-07T09:39:14Z h4ck3r9696: I see. I should try to reconnect to every peer, then. 2021-04-07T09:44:10Z Mandus joined #lisp 2021-04-07T09:44:46Z beach: lukego: Right, it is not meant for you (at the moment). Once the environment is in working condition, I hope you will see some nice features. 2021-04-07T09:47:50Z _jrjsmrtn joined #lisp 2021-04-07T09:47:57Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-07T09:48:05Z Major_Biscuit joined #lisp 2021-04-07T09:48:11Z diamondbond quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-04-07T09:48:17Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Thanks for the report and the tests! 2021-04-07T10:25:17Z hhdave: ikrabbe (or ikrabbe|2): I noticed over on #clim you were talking about using CL for devops. I'm doing that these days using https://github.com/Virtual-Insurance-Products/cl-sysop (which I wrote). I handled the executing commands on remote systems bit - it can bounce over several systems via SSH (also uses zlogin for executing things in SmartOS (solaris) zones). It handles all the shell quoting. 2021-04-07T10:25:58Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-04-07T10:28:08Z EffBezos quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-04-07T10:30:08Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-07T10:30:43Z Nilby: splittist: You're welcome. Thanks for making it. 2021-04-07T10:36:09Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-07T10:36:33Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-04-07T10:40:40Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-04-07T10:41:02Z jeosol quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-04-07T10:43:16Z lotuseater joined #lisp 2021-04-07T10:43:37Z johs left #lisp 2021-04-07T10:43:52Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-04-07T10:44:47Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-04-07T10:45:18Z ikrabbe: hhdave: Thanks for the note. I first transfer the sequence of commands send to a system into a list. I scan this list with a recursive function. That is a bit more complex, but far more flexible, as I searched a general solution for a common problem. The quoting is done by the structure of the list. 2021-04-07T10:46:00Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-04-07T10:55:42Z ask6155 joined #lisp 2021-04-07T10:55:45Z ask6155: hello 2021-04-07T10:56:48Z ask6155: is there a function which opens up lists? 2021-04-07T10:57:05Z no-defun-allowed: Opens up? 2021-04-07T10:57:55Z jmercouris: maybe flattens? what do you mean exactly? 2021-04-07T10:58:00Z ask6155: like (open '(x y)) will return (x y) 2021-04-07T10:58:03Z ask6155: yeah flatten 2021-04-07T10:58:15Z jmercouris: alexandria:flatten 2021-04-07T10:58:38Z ask6155: is there nothing built-in? 2021-04-07T10:58:42Z jmercouris: no 2021-04-07T10:58:48Z Nilby: '(x y) is (x y) 2021-04-07T10:58:52Z jmercouris: perhaps you don't mean flatten though 2021-04-07T10:59:03Z jmercouris: because as Nilby pointed out, those expressions are equivalent 2021-04-07T10:59:05Z hhdave: ikrabbe: oh right. In my system I have a method which makes a command for a certain host which consists of a comamnd name and a list of arguments. I'd be interested to see what you come up with. I think there are other implementations of similar things. I've built up a system for declarative devops using CLOS. 2021-04-07T10:59:11Z jmercouris: (quote (x y)) -> (x y) 2021-04-07T11:00:46Z ask6155: a function takes a list, how do I return that list? 2021-04-07T11:01:59Z ask6155: actually bad question 2021-04-07T11:02:25Z contrapunctus: ask6155: what are you trying to do? 2021-04-07T11:02:27Z ask6155: I want to return a list with the items in the list x plus some more items at the end 2021-04-07T11:02:43Z ask6155: in one list with no sublists 2021-04-07T11:02:44Z contrapunctus: ask6155: append 2021-04-07T11:05:45Z no-defun-allowed: Huh? '(x y) and (x y) are not equivalent. The former evaluates to the latter though. 2021-04-07T11:05:49Z ikrabbe: or `(,@some-list ,an-element ,@the-elements-of-another-list) 2021-04-07T11:06:42Z Nilby: ask6155: Just be aware that the last argument to append must be a list e.g. (append '(1 2) (list 3)) => (1 2 3) 2021-04-07T11:09:01Z ask6155: thanks append works 2021-04-07T11:12:15Z no-defun-allowed: APPEND returns an improper list when the last argument is not a list. 2021-04-07T11:12:34Z no-defun-allowed: Interesting advice from #lisp today. 2021-04-07T11:14:04Z ask6155: I'm using common-lisp and in append I had to make all arguments lists like this '(x) I cannot use 'x it gives an error 'x needs to be a list. I have 3 args and x is the first 2021-04-07T11:15:08Z kevingal_ joined #lisp 2021-04-07T11:15:08Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, the other arguments must be lists though. 2021-04-07T11:16:06Z ask6155: do all arguments need to be lists? 2021-04-07T11:16:45Z no-defun-allowed: If you have a list bound to X, then the call should look like (append x (list other elements here)) 2021-04-07T11:17:07Z kevingal quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2021-04-07T11:17:46Z vv8 joined #lisp 2021-04-07T11:18:08Z ask6155: ok I getit 2021-04-07T11:19:18Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-07T11:19:51Z no-defun-allowed: 'x and x are not equivalent under evaluation, but I suppose reality is not being communicated well when someone who writes A LARGE POPULAR LISP APPLICATION is telling people that sort of nonsense. 2021-04-07T11:20:02Z no-defun-allowed: Whew, that's my shouting for the day. 2021-04-07T11:21:22Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-04-07T11:21:27Z ask6155: i dont remember any popular lisp apps 2021-04-07T11:21:34Z no-defun-allowed: ikrabbe's suggestion to use quasiquotation would also work, e.g. `(,@x 1 2 3) 2021-04-07T11:21:55Z ask6155: i've not learned that yet 2021-04-07T11:22:04Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-04-07T11:22:13Z no-defun-allowed: Note that 1, 2 and 3 there are not evaluated - well, append would work fine for now. 2021-04-07T11:23:38Z Nilby: If someone can succeed despite my technically wrong advice, then they might have a chance with the harder stuff. 2021-04-07T11:24:41Z ask6155 left #lisp 2021-04-07T11:25:12Z lukego: speaking of things having to be lists I have a function (defun listify (x) (if (listp x) x (list x))) and was surprised not to immediately see it already existing in CL / alexandria / serapeum unless I missed it? 2021-04-07T11:25:28Z no-defun-allowed: alexandria:ensure-list or something like that? 2021-04-07T11:25:53Z no-defun-allowed: (alexandria:ensure-list 'x) ⇒ (X) 2021-04-07T11:26:15Z lukego: no-defun-allowed: yes! fool that I am, I was looking for LISTS in the alexandria docs ToC and totally overlooked CONSES 2021-04-07T11:26:50Z no-defun-allowed: Nilby: The qualifier "technically" isn't necessary; that is absolutely confusing advice. 2021-04-07T11:34:40Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2021-04-07T11:35:05Z no-defun-allowed: And, from my point of view, progress was made in part because I had to correct you and jmercouris, and I would prefer to not have to do that. 2021-04-07T11:37:20Z Nilby left #lisp 2021-04-07T11:40:11Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-07T11:42:16Z creat joined #lisp 2021-04-07T11:46:47Z silasfox joined #lisp 2021-04-07T11:47:00Z silasfox quit (Client Quit) 2021-04-07T11:51:26Z igemnace quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-07T11:54:06Z rodriga joined #lisp 2021-04-07T12:02:56Z lukego: are you chastising people for the quality of the free help that they are offering in good faith to strangers on the internet? that's harsh :) 2021-04-07T12:07:07Z xaotuk joined #lisp 2021-04-07T12:20:36Z t99 joined #lisp 2021-04-07T12:24:48Z ikrabbe: not when they lead people in the wrong direction, though the critic was a bit strong, for a little quote :) 2021-04-07T12:25:45Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-04-07T12:28:36Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-04-07T12:28:43Z ikrabbe: ask6155: it took myself a good amount of time, to realize that append can be replace, especially in situations, where the result is not known: (apply #'append '(a-list) (return a few lists, to be appended)) is far more complex, than `(,@a-list ,@(return a few lists, to be appended)) 2021-04-07T12:28:57Z rodriga: has anybody here ever worked in a Lisp startup? or have any connections to a Lisp startup or "internships"? 2021-04-07T12:29:21Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-04-07T12:29:53Z ikrabbe: ask6155: actually I learned that while trying to understand onLisp 2021-04-07T12:31:24Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-04-07T12:31:47Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2021-04-07T12:37:13Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-04-07T12:38:01Z scm_ joined #lisp 2021-04-07T12:38:26Z mfiano: Whenever I see #'append in my code, I consider it a red flag and I stop and think very carefully whether it can be expressed in a more efficient manner. 2021-04-07T12:38:57Z mfiano: Though I am normally writing high performance code where that thinking is required. 2021-04-07T12:41:32Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2021-04-07T12:47:27Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-07T12:48:00Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-04-07T12:49:00Z ikrabbe: As you first learn about quasiquote as "the somehow used macro definition leader", it is replaced by append when you begin your list juggling. 2021-04-07T12:51:17Z mfiano: "quasiquote" is a Schemism 2021-04-07T12:51:24Z mfiano: We call that "Backquote" 2021-04-07T12:51:41Z no-defun-allowed: Eh, I call it quasiquotation. 2021-04-07T12:51:41Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-07T12:51:46Z Bike: we do call it quasiquote sometimes 2021-04-07T12:51:57Z no-defun-allowed: So does e.g. the library fare-quasiquote 2021-04-07T12:52:31Z Bike: also eclector. also the clhs suggests copying scheme. so it's fine 2021-04-07T12:53:20Z mfiano: Fair enough. It can be confusing to someone trying to reference the bible is all. 2021-04-07T12:57:39Z devrtz quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-04-07T12:58:11Z devrtz joined #lisp 2021-04-07T12:59:32Z edgar-rft quasiquotes the ten commandments 2021-04-07T13:02:30Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-04-07T13:05:29Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-04-07T13:07:00Z curtosis joined #lisp 2021-04-07T13:09:54Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-04-07T13:11:12Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-04-07T13:13:12Z jcowan: edgar-rft: And what parts of them do you provide as commatose variables? 2021-04-07T13:14:11Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-07T13:14:55Z yitzi joined #lisp 2021-04-07T13:15:34Z ikrabbe: I think quasiquote is a quote good word, to express the function of the backquote character (at least far better than "the somehow used macro definition leader") 2021-04-07T13:16:26Z lukego: rodriga: I've worked in a Lisp startup and have a new embryo-phase Lisp startup now. what are you wondering? 2021-04-07T13:19:15Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2021-04-07T13:21:12Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-04-07T13:22:46Z beach: lukego: Probably whether you propose employment or internships. 2021-04-07T13:22:57Z ikrabbe: mfiano: I just wikipedia'ed the word and found that quasiquote is actually a semantic concept of quotation, that matches our usage very well. 2021-04-07T13:25:40Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-04-07T13:25:47Z ikrabbe: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/quotation/#CornQuasQuot :D There are more modes to quotation, we might be able to adapt ;) 2021-04-07T13:25:58Z lukego: I guess that if one is looking for a lisp job/internship that list of Lisp companies is a good place to look. I only saw this for the first time this week. https://github.com/azzamsa/awesome-lisp-companies 2021-04-07T13:27:56Z Necktwi quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-07T13:28:13Z mfiano: ikrabbe: It is the same concept. My point was that it is not a defined term in the Common Lisp standard. It was borrowed from Scheme to mean the same thing as an existing term in our standard. 2021-04-07T13:28:47Z waleee-cl joined #lisp 2021-04-07T13:39:40Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2021-04-07T13:40:30Z jcowan: It's also used in Bourne shell terminology: '...' is quotation, "..." is quasiquotation 2021-04-07T13:41:32Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-04-07T13:41:54Z silasfox joined #lisp 2021-04-07T13:42:12Z jmercouris: no-defun-allowed: pretty sure if one form evaluates to another they are equivalent... 2021-04-07T13:42:19Z Xach: if you are uncomfortable with all the mysterious unquoting rules, it's queasyquotation 2021-04-07T13:46:45Z seabass[m] joined #lisp 2021-04-07T13:46:45Z lukego: where is the "like" button in irc... 2021-04-07T13:46:47Z beach: jmercouris: Not by any reasonable definition of "equivalent". 2021-04-07T13:48:27Z curtosis quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-04-07T13:50:07Z beach: jmercouris: There is nothing wrong with the relation "evaluates to". It is reasonably well defined in Common Lisp. 2021-04-07T13:51:26Z seabass[m]: Hello! 2021-04-07T13:51:28Z seok joined #lisp 2021-04-07T13:51:38Z beach: Hello seabass[m]. 2021-04-07T13:52:02Z seabass[m]: I've got a JSON file that I'd like to turn into constants for Common Lisp 2021-04-07T13:52:32Z seabass[m]: Is there a way to do this at compile time with macros? 2021-04-07T13:53:07Z beach: Why would you use macros rather than functions? 2021-04-07T13:53:24Z seabass[m]: I was under the impression that it was macros that ran at compile time, rather than functions 2021-04-07T13:53:37Z seabass[m]: But if functions do the job, then that's also great! :) 2021-04-07T13:55:15Z beach: You can do anything at compile time with (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) ...) 2021-04-07T13:55:16Z seabass[m]: I'd really appreciate any code examples of this 2021-04-07T13:55:43Z seabass[m]: ooh, nice - so every CL compiler also has an internal intepreter? 2021-04-07T13:56:13Z beach: No. Most modern Common Lisp systems compile on the fly, so there is no interpreter present. 2021-04-07T13:56:59Z sz0 joined #lisp 2021-04-07T13:57:02Z seabass[m]: wow, even better 2021-04-07T13:57:16Z seabass[m]: Lisp never ceases to amaze me :) 2021-04-07T13:57:29Z seabass[m]: ...neither does the Lisp community, BTW ;) 2021-04-07T13:57:32Z mmmattyx joined #lisp 2021-04-07T13:57:37Z Xach: beach: doug k had a very interesting example of how adding an interpreter to SBCL made parallel compilation faster 2021-04-07T13:58:10Z beach: Xach: Interesting! 2021-04-07T13:58:36Z seabass[m]: Xach, and here you are 2021-04-07T13:58:55Z seabass[m]: did you know that your blurb is at the top of http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ ? 2021-04-07T13:59:13Z seabass[m]: I didn't expect to meet you this quickly upon joining the channel, lol :) 2021-04-07T13:59:15Z aeth: I don't doubt that you could do everything as a function but... this really does seem like a place where macros are more straightforward. Read/parse file at macroexpansion time, generate DEFCONSTANTs. The only issue is that macros can be evaluated more than once (and SBCL often evaluates them twice), so side-effects (including reading a file, I guess? it would happen twice) are discouraged. 2021-04-07T13:59:23Z Xach: beach: basically, if you have serial dependencies A, B, C, interpreting A and B with an interpreter only to provide the required compile-time side-effects of the code allowed C to be compiled before A or B is compiled. 2021-04-07T13:59:50Z Xach: beach: of course, this requires a complex and fast interpreter optimized for that purpose...not a "traditional" interpreter that helps with debugging or macroexpansion etc 2021-04-07T13:59:52Z lukego: Xach: interpreter is making a comeback in sbcl? any link on that? 2021-04-07T13:59:58Z seabass[m]: aeth, I guess I could read the file into a variable with a function 2021-04-07T14:00:07Z seabass[m]: and then convert them into constants with macros? 2021-04-07T14:00:09Z Xach: lukego: this is from many years ago, not new, but i feel it is not well-understood 2021-04-07T14:00:29Z beach: Xach: Makes sense. 2021-04-07T14:01:11Z beach: aeth: Entirely possible. Since I don't understand the problem statement, I was merely asking a question. 2021-04-07T14:01:28Z aeth: seabass[m]: even simpler than that, you can just check to see if the constants already exist, maybe? 2021-04-07T14:01:56Z seabass[m]: aeth, sorry what do you mean? This is a particular set of data specific to my program 2021-04-07T14:02:03Z seabass[m]: It's not a constant like Pi or anything 2021-04-07T14:03:02Z seabass[m]: By using constants I can avoid this huge JSON file being parsed every invocation, and also make the binary 'portable' by not needing a /usr/share dir 2021-04-07T14:03:16Z lukego gets some popcorn, has never really grokked the intersection between compile time evaluation and macro definition 2021-04-07T14:03:54Z Xach: lukego: when the interpreter was being developed (a long time ago), i thought it would really help for interactive debugging, but it's really just to avoid the overhead of the smart compiler generating nice code. 2021-04-07T14:04:11Z Xach: (slowly) 2021-04-07T14:05:10Z lukego: *nod* think of this any time I run CCL and it all feels so blazingly fast 2021-04-07T14:05:15Z aeth: seabass[m]: If you're using DEFCONSTANT it will be an error to redefine it on recompile. Two issues. First, it can run multiple times (wasting the later efforts assuming that the two definitions match). Second, if the file changes it will just error on recompile. 2021-04-07T14:05:52Z aeth: seabass[m]: The easiest workaround would just be to use a global, which at that point can just be done at the first run (assuming that it's a program or a framework, and not a library with many entry points) 2021-04-07T14:05:58Z lukego: aside: edebug for emacs has wonderful user experience for interactive stepper-style debugging, based on a metacircular interpreter afaik 2021-04-07T14:06:19Z seabass[m]: aeth, Hmm, that's interesting 2021-04-07T14:06:25Z Xach: lukego: allegro and lispworks are really fast too. it's interesting to see the kind of mindset that develops around many (most?) users of free CLs thinking SBCL is the only way to go and the best at everything 2021-04-07T14:06:31Z seabass[m]: Maybe I should give you an overview of what I'm trying to achieve more generally 2021-04-07T14:06:41Z Xach: (i love and use SBCL, but it is not the best at everything) 2021-04-07T14:06:57Z seabass[m]: Essentially, I've got this big JSON file. The JSON file is updated every few months 2021-04-07T14:07:36Z seabass[m]: the end user would need to download my source code, and then download any version of the JSON file into the source directory 2021-04-07T14:07:54Z seabass[m]: Then compile, and boom all the constants are there and the program never needs to read a JSON file again 2021-04-07T14:08:32Z seabass[m]: If I manually wrote the constants in the Lisp source, I'd need to change them manually at every release of the JSON data 2021-04-07T14:09:46Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-04-07T14:13:02Z klltkr joined #lisp 2021-04-07T14:16:14Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-04-07T14:16:30Z lukego: seabass[m]: I guess it's two related problems. One, how to load the data at compile time, perhaps with EVAL-WHEN; two, what to do with that data after it's loaded, e.g. keep it in a list that you lookup from, or translate it into Lisp-level compiler constants via macros. 2021-04-07T14:17:04Z seabass[m]: lukego, yes I think that's a good way of putting it 2021-04-07T14:17:17Z rodriga quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-07T14:17:43Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-04-07T14:17:45Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-04-07T14:18:43Z Codaraxis_ joined #lisp 2021-04-07T14:19:15Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-07T14:20:28Z lukego: I really don't have this stuff swapped in but I am also curious about what is the idiomatic solution :). Maybe it depends on the way in which you're compiling your application e.g. into compiled modules (fasls) verses as a snapshot (image)? 2021-04-07T14:20:47Z seabass[m]: now you really are going over my head :) 2021-04-07T14:21:18Z Codaraxis quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-07T14:22:56Z lukego: I hope that I'm not side-tracking you here but one relevant feature that Lisp has is being able to snapshot the whole Lisp process into a file -- basically a coredump -- and then run that again later. it's like a suspend-to-disk and all of the data you have loaded is included. I'm not sure if/how this applies to your situation though 2021-04-07T14:23:50Z seabass[m]: hmm that sounds cools but probably a bit advanced for me as well as my target userbase 2021-04-07T14:23:54Z seabass[m]: *cool 2021-04-07T14:24:26Z silasfox quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-04-07T14:25:10Z lukego: I don't quite follow what the interface for your end-users will be. are they getting a stand-alone binary from you? or are they really getting source + json? and you plan to ship those on different schedules e.g. new lisp daily but new json monthly? 2021-04-07T14:25:26Z seabass[m]: Hmm, OK I'll try to expain better 2021-04-07T14:25:32Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2021-04-07T14:25:34Z seabass[m]: Most users will simply get a binary release from me 2021-04-07T14:25:51Z seabass[m]: The releases that I make will always use the latest combination of JSON + Lisp code 2021-04-07T14:26:14Z seabass[m]: But if my users want to use a different version of the JSON, they can download them seperately and create that binary themselves 2021-04-07T14:27:17Z lukego: Maybe consider building on Xach's buildapp? https://www.xach.com/lisp/buildapp/ iiuc that's a simple way to create stand-alone executables that can easily load both code and data during build. 2021-04-07T14:27:48Z Xach: i like and use buildapp but investing time in learning how asdf's binary building works is probably better 2021-04-07T14:28:00Z seabass[m]: Ideally they shouldn't need to know any Lisp - just run make 2021-04-07T14:28:00Z Xach: from what i've seen, it's pretty easy 2021-04-07T14:28:02Z beach: seabass[m]: Maybe if you remove JSON from the discussion, and just let us know what the parser for the JSON file would return. 2021-04-07T14:28:35Z beach: seabass[m]: And then, tell us what you want that result to turn into, in terms of Common Lisp forms. 2021-04-07T14:28:47Z lukego: oh I didn't know that asdf had that function. neat. 2021-04-07T14:29:33Z seabass[m]: beach, it would return a list, containing a list of two keywords and their values each 2021-04-07T14:29:40Z Xach: i couldn't figure out cl-launch, so i made buildapp, which is simpler. then asdf was updated to be a little simpler than buildapp (i think) 2021-04-07T14:29:52Z beach: seabass[m]: Can you give an example? 2021-04-07T14:31:08Z seabass[m]: ((:a "string" :b "another") (:a "yet more string" :b "yet another")) 2021-04-07T14:31:16Z seabass[m]: Hmm maybe I should try to explain that in Algol-like pseudocode 2021-04-07T14:31:17Z seabass[m]: even with a hint of python :) 2021-04-07T14:31:52Z beach: And what would you like your Common Lisp code to look like as a result of that example? 2021-04-07T14:32:12Z beach: I mean, it can't be (defconstant :a "string") etc. 2021-04-07T14:32:29Z seabass[m]: erm, why not? 2021-04-07T14:32:33Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2021-04-07T14:33:08Z beach: seabass[m]: Because you are not allowed to define Common Lisp keywords as constants. 2021-04-07T14:33:20Z seabass[m]: oh, right. Hmm. 2021-04-07T14:33:23Z beach: Plus, there are two :A and two :B so that would be a conflict. 2021-04-07T14:33:42Z seabass[m]: So can I define a constant list of keywords? 2021-04-07T14:34:19Z seabass[m]: equivilento `list[n].a` and `list[n].b` in Python, say 2021-04-07T14:34:25Z beach: Sure. But I don't see anything in your example that would suggest a Common Lisp name that could be used in a DEFCONSTANT form. 2021-04-07T14:34:30Z seabass[m]: haha, I just invented a nice word there 2021-04-07T14:34:40Z seabass[m]: 'equivilento' :D 2021-04-07T14:34:44Z gxt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-07T14:35:10Z gxt joined #lisp 2021-04-07T14:35:13Z beach: seabass[m]: It would be even better if you explain what you want without reference to programming languages that some people here might not master. 2021-04-07T14:35:37Z seabass[m]: beach, fair enough, but I'll have to think longer to get it into 'lispy' formats :) 2021-04-07T14:36:39Z beach: seabass[m]: So neither the keywords not the string literals can be used as the name of a Common Lisp constant. Therefore, you need to tell us what name you would like for your example. 2021-04-07T14:37:26Z beach: seabass[m]: Then, you need to explain what you had in mind when you thought it was possible to use keywords as names of constants, but then your example has duplicates, which would mean defining a constant in two different ways. 2021-04-07T14:37:41Z seabass[m]: hmm, yeah 2021-04-07T14:37:57Z seabass[m]: I guess I'd like to have one constant that is a list, where each item has keyworded values 2021-04-07T14:38:22Z beach: Oh, like a property list (plist)? 2021-04-07T14:38:30Z seabass[m]: ahah! That maybe it 2021-04-07T14:38:32Z seabass[m] looks up plists 2021-04-07T14:39:11Z seabass[m]: that sounds exactly like what I'm looking for 2021-04-07T14:39:27Z beach: Still, the duplication will be a problem. It doesn't make sense to have a plist with duplicate keys. 2021-04-07T14:39:42Z lukego: I have interpreted seabass[m]'s questions totally differently and made an example which may or may not be confusing and irrelevant :) https://gist.github.com/lukego/44ee65e9d2ed9587c91338d237f27fe4 2021-04-07T14:39:49Z seabass[m]: So, is there a way of populating such a plist in a loop (which can ignore duplicate keys), and then 'set that it stone' for the binary? 2021-04-07T14:39:57Z beach: Or, it could make sense, but you need to explain what it would mean. 2021-04-07T14:40:49Z beach: seabass[m]: That's trivial. If you have the list in your example, then just turn it into (defconstant +mumble+ '((:a "string" :b ...) (:a ...))) 2021-04-07T14:41:36Z lukego: This example runs standalone.lisp that creates the executable ./standalone. This executable includes the contents of the file /etc/protocols at the time that the executable was created. Running ./standalone will print the contents of /etc/protocols -- not by opening that file but by "remembering" the value that was compiled in. 2021-04-07T14:41:41Z seabass[m]: great! So I populate a variable, and then defconstant it into a constant, all within a 'at compile time' section? 2021-04-07T14:41:54Z seabass[m]: lukego, that's really nifty 2021-04-07T14:42:09Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-04-07T14:42:17Z seabass[m]: That's pretty much what I wanted do to; can that be compiled into a binary and still work? 2021-04-07T14:42:34Z seabass[m]: as opposed to --load 2021-04-07T14:42:36Z beach: seabass[m]: Or perhaps (defconstant +mumble+ '((:a "string") (:b "...") (:a ...) (:b ...))) or even (defconstant +mumble+ '(:a "string" :b "..." :a .... :b ...)) 2021-04-07T14:42:42Z beach: But you need to decide which one. 2021-04-07T14:42:44Z lukego: well in my interpretation the defconstant business is just a distraction. all you need is to have the data passed from compile time to runtime. the details of how you parse it, how you store it in variables, etc, are up to you and straightforward once you grok the bit above 2021-04-07T14:43:05Z lukego: seabass[m]: Yes. The --load will have the side-effect of creating ./standalone which is an executable. 2021-04-07T14:43:17Z seabass[m]: that's neat 2021-04-07T14:43:17Z wsinatra quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-07T14:43:26Z seabass[m]: Thank you very much for your help here! 2021-04-07T14:43:34Z Feldman quit (Client Quit) 2021-04-07T14:44:14Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-04-07T14:44:21Z lukego: The way it does this is basically to "core dump" into that file -- i.e. suspend the Lisp process to disk such that it can be resumed in a new process -- but that's not really a scary thing in Lisp, and it's handy because all your state is preserved e.g. values you have loaded from disk or libraries you have loaded etc (but not open files/sockets/etc of course that die with the process and don't persist) 2021-04-07T14:44:22Z lukego: you're welcome 2021-04-07T14:44:45Z seabass[m]: that's certainly something that'd be scary in C 2021-04-07T14:45:41Z lukego: Maybe if you take this approach you could just parse the JSON data at runtime if that makes it easier to think about. You can still have the JSON data loaded at runtime and stored in the executable -- but it's probably not necessary to translate it into Lisp code since if you have it in a Lisp string you can just parse it into a Lisp data structure at any time. 2021-04-07T14:45:41Z seabass[m]: There's also something I'd like to ask for the benefit of the user 2021-04-07T14:46:34Z seabass[m]: There's a portion of the JSON that'll never be needed for my program, so I think it probably makes sense just to save the data I need 2021-04-07T14:47:39Z aindilis` joined #lisp 2021-04-07T14:47:41Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-07T14:48:02Z rodriga joined #lisp 2021-04-07T14:48:21Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-07T14:49:04Z lukego: So what you have here is really a general suspend/resume facility. You can decide what data you want to have in the process at the time you do the suspend. In this example you have the raw contents of the file stored in a variable, but you could instead e.g. pass that to a function that extracts only the part you need, or compresses it, or parses it and stores the parse tree, or translates it into lisp code, etc. 2021-04-07T14:49:23Z _jrjsmrtn quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2021-04-07T14:49:44Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp 2021-04-07T14:50:13Z lukego: Since the suspended Lisp process includes the whole Lisp compiler you should also be able "at runtime" to load in new data and generate a new executable containing that instead. 2021-04-07T14:50:37Z seabass[m]: isn't that a little wasteful? 2021-04-07T14:50:57Z aindilis` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-07T14:51:01Z seabass[m]: Compared to C, for instance, which only has the code that you wrote 2021-04-07T14:51:27Z lukego: So this is about half way between C and Docker. 2021-04-07T14:51:49Z seabass[m]: sorry, I don't know Docker :) 2021-04-07T14:52:18Z lukego: So basically it's very wasteful by the standards of the 1990s. By today's standards I'd call it borderline restrained. 2021-04-07T14:52:33Z aindilis joined #lisp 2021-04-07T14:52:34Z seabass[m]: that's a fair point :) 2021-04-07T14:53:07Z lukego: anyway, it's a starting point if you want to get up and running, quite possibly you'll find a better solution later if you want to reduce your file size etc. 2021-04-07T14:53:19Z seabass[m]: yeah, that's true 2021-04-07T14:53:30Z seabass[m]: Again, thank you :) 2021-04-07T14:53:57Z lukego: (maybe other people have better suggestions for you, I'm only taking the time now because it looked to me like you were getting side-tracked with thinking about how to represent JSON data as Lisp code, when it really seemed like your main problem was just embedding some data in your program) 2021-04-07T14:53:59Z lukego: welcome 2021-04-07T14:54:07Z dinnu93 joined #lisp 2021-04-07T14:54:22Z seabass[m]: yup, pretty much 2021-04-07T14:54:32Z seabass[m]: I have a tendency to go down those sort of side-tracks :) 2021-04-07T14:54:46Z shka_: hi all 2021-04-07T14:54:53Z lukego: Lisp will offer you plenty of possibiliites for that, don't worry. 2021-04-07T14:55:09Z seabass[m]: o/ shka_ 2021-04-07T14:55:11Z shka_: i am looking for a really good example of pretty printing code 2021-04-07T14:55:22Z shka_: please, aid me 2021-04-07T14:55:47Z seabass[m]: hmm there's probably a good file or two in GNU Emacs for that 2021-04-07T14:56:05Z shka_: well, common lisp to be specific 2021-04-07T14:56:09Z seabass[m]: ah, OK 2021-04-07T14:56:29Z voidlily quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-04-07T14:57:31Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-04-07T14:58:08Z seabass[m]: shka_, M-x find-function RET indent-line-to RET, just in case you're interested anyway :) 2021-04-07T14:58:12Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-04-07T14:58:30Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-04-07T14:58:41Z shka_: seabass[m]: appreciated 2021-04-07T14:58:51Z seabass[m]: no problem :) 2021-04-07T14:59:09Z seabass[m]: shka_, do you use Emacs? 2021-04-07T14:59:39Z seabass[m]: It surely must be the best Lisp editor in existence 2021-04-07T14:59:57Z beach: Sadly, it is. 2021-04-07T15:00:03Z lukego: shka_: one example, https://www.researchgate.net/publication/242313131_Using_the_new_common_Lisp_pretty_printer 2021-04-07T15:00:03Z shka_: heh 2021-04-07T15:00:15Z shka_: beach: that's exactly what i wanted to type 2021-04-07T15:00:26Z shka_: anyway, emacs is not even bad 2021-04-07T15:00:27Z beach: Sorry I beat you to it. :) 2021-04-07T15:00:30Z seabass[m]: beach, it's fine as long as you have long fingers and small keyboards :D 2021-04-07T15:00:36Z davisr joined #lisp 2021-04-07T15:00:44Z shka_: but we could have something so much better 2021-04-07T15:00:46Z davisr__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-07T15:00:49Z mason: seabass[m]: Bah, foot peddles do away with all of that. 2021-04-07T15:01:00Z seabass[m]: mason, ooh, you actually have one? 2021-04-07T15:01:08Z seabass[m]: Does it plug into the mic jack or USB? 2021-04-07T15:01:11Z mason: seabass[m]: No, but I want one so I can be a better Emacs user. 2021-04-07T15:01:16Z beach: seabass[m]: No, it is not fine. It doesn't have a good idea of what the code in the buffer represents, so it often gets indentation wrong, and it confuses non-forms and forms. 2021-04-07T15:01:17Z seabass[m]: ah, OK :) 2021-04-07T15:01:22Z beach: seabass[m]: etc, etc,. 2021-04-07T15:01:40Z lukego: decades of Emacs use and no foot pedals, then I took up soldering and suddenly I have five under my desk right now :) 2021-04-07T15:01:58Z seabass[m]: beach, that's funny, I've never had any issues with that. But then again, I'm not too advanced at Lisp right now, as you can see :) 2021-04-07T15:02:02Z mason: beach: What's a good editor? Or isn't there one? 2021-04-07T15:02:20Z seabass[m]: lol! that's funny lukego 2021-04-07T15:02:21Z beach: mason: Like I said, I agree that "sadly" Emacs is the best. 2021-04-07T15:02:25Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-04-07T15:02:40Z seabass[m]: I'll ask you then - is it audio jack or USB? 2021-04-07T15:02:45Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-04-07T15:02:50Z seabass[m]: I guess you'd need some sort of uc for USB 2021-04-07T15:02:54Z beach: seabass[m]: That's the very problem. People seem content with this situation. 2021-04-07T15:03:26Z mason: seabass[m]: have you read through https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/FootSwitches ? 2021-04-07T15:03:42Z shka_: beach: i think that emacs has a few extra benefits for people who program in multiple languages 2021-04-07T15:03:42Z seabass[m]: nope, I haven't actually considered one for myself 2021-04-07T15:04:14Z beach: shka_: Yes, but I was answering: It surely must be the best Lisp editor in existence 2021-04-07T15:04:14Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-04-07T15:04:15Z mason: seabass[m]: I think it's probably worthwhile since Emacs, despite protestations, is in fact modal. "I've got the control key down" is a mode. 2021-04-07T15:04:31Z shka_: righ 2021-04-07T15:04:32Z shka_: t 2021-04-07T15:04:36Z seabass[m]: yes, I agree 2021-04-07T15:05:00Z mason: Really, having a control key on the floor is all the pedal I'd want. 2021-04-07T15:05:00Z seabass[m]: on a technical basis, of course, there's no difference 2021-04-07T15:05:12Z seabass[m]: And you could very easily remap non-control keys to anything else 2021-04-07T15:06:15Z seabass[m]: (global-set-key (kbd "a") 'execute-extended-command) or whatever 2021-04-07T15:06:20Z beach: lukego: I would like a keyboard with a much more narrow space bar, and I would like the extra space to be used for control and meta, one for each thumb. I take it Japanese keyboards are like that, but for different reasons. 2021-04-07T15:06:37Z seabass[m]: beach, absolutely agree with you there 2021-04-07T15:07:03Z seabass[m]: The Japanese keyboards are themselves hyper-modal 2021-04-07T15:07:31Z lukego: beach: yeah. I always shop for the keyboard with the narrowest spacebar that I can. ironically it means wanting a Windows key. the best I can usually do it having Space flush with the left of C e.g. on my Thinkpad and Mac keyboards. Sometimes it comes out below X and then I get hand cramps reaching for Meta. 2021-04-07T15:07:39Z seabass[m]: the Chinese just gave up and use Pinyin :D 2021-04-07T15:08:10Z renzhi joined #lisp 2021-04-07T15:08:20Z lukego: though I only use my left hand for modifiers I think. pinky for control (capslock) and thumb for meta. 2021-04-07T15:08:27Z pjb: lukego: https://groupbuys.mechboards.co.uk/shop/hyper-7-keyboard-r3/ has a small space. 2021-04-07T15:08:53Z lukego: once upon a time I had my spacebar mapped to a Hyper key but I was in a bad place then and stopped escalating my keyboard hacks as the hand cramps started :) 2021-04-07T15:08:57Z seabass[m]: lukego, me too unless my left hand hurts, then I use my right hand for modifiers for a few hours 2021-04-07T15:09:02Z pjb: Actually two small space keys separated by a ⋅ key. 2021-04-07T15:09:17Z shka_: beach: i use redox keyboard, it has ctrl just under the thumb 2021-04-07T15:09:25Z lukego: interesting keyboard pjb! 2021-04-07T15:09:32Z beach: pjb: That looks good! 2021-04-07T15:09:35Z seabass[m]: pjb, wow that's a beautiful keyboard, but it sure is expensive 2021-04-07T15:09:44Z voidlily joined #lisp 2021-04-07T15:09:51Z shka_: on the standard keyboards, i used to remap caps lock to act as a ctrl 2021-04-07T15:10:03Z seabass[m]: My budget is more like USD$60 2021-04-07T15:10:08Z beach: shka_: Yes, but C-a becomes a bit hard to type. 2021-04-07T15:10:18Z shka_: and ctrl to act as escape 2021-04-07T15:10:19Z seabass[m]: shka_, on Colemak Caps Lock is backspace 2021-04-07T15:10:33Z shka_: which also makes some sense 2021-04-07T15:10:38Z hjudt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-07T15:10:47Z shka_: honestly, caps lock has no place on the modern keyboard imho 2021-04-07T15:10:47Z lukego: I have been gradually expanding my notion of what is a reasonable price for a keyboard as I keep on buying more and more cheap and crappy ones and wishing I'd been less stingy :) 2021-04-07T15:11:08Z lukego: but just using the thinkpad now, and Barrier to share the laptop keyboard/mouse with the desktop. 2021-04-07T15:11:14Z beach: pjb: That look like precisely what I desribed. 2021-04-07T15:11:19Z beach: described. 2021-04-07T15:11:38Z seabass[m]: lukego, I know one of the maintainers of Barrier btw 2021-04-07T15:11:54Z pjb: beach: unfortunately, out of stock. They may take orders for a possible future batch. 2021-04-07T15:11:58Z shka_: beach: you gonna need a rather large desk for this one :-) 2021-04-07T15:12:11Z seabass[m]: always grumbling because the GitHub project owner won't give push privs :D 2021-04-07T15:12:23Z lukego: seabass[m]: cool :) it's a great piece of software! though one day I must work out how to get it to auto-start on startup. each time I reboot one of my machines I end up fishing out a backup keyboard/mouse to manually start barrier with :). maybe I could just start it from the command-line, have to check that.. 2021-04-07T15:12:43Z beach: pjb: Oh, too bad. 2021-04-07T15:13:05Z seabass[m]: lukego, you could ues an initrc/systemd unit maybe? 2021-04-07T15:13:08Z lukego: I suppose actually that barrier makes total sense as a text-based command line application, I wonder if it has such a mode, it's awkward to start in GUI mode since in principle I don't have a keyboard/mouse on the client machine 2021-04-07T15:13:17Z lukego: yeah, one day I'll finally do that... 2021-04-07T15:13:50Z seabass[m]: I don't use Barrier but I could knock up a systemd unit for you if you want 2021-04-07T15:14:31Z seabass[m]: I use this keyboard: https://www.ebay.com/p/74087856 2021-04-07T15:14:39Z seabass[m]: not in such yellowed state, I may add :D 2021-04-07T15:15:00Z lukego: old school :) 2021-04-07T15:15:13Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-04-07T15:15:18Z seabass[m]: my father's first IBM-PC clone keyboard :) 2021-04-07T15:15:23Z lukego: thanks but I'm on NixOS so that'll be another whole kettle of fish to integrate the script into and I don't have the motivation just now :) 2021-04-07T15:15:28Z hypercube joined #lisp 2021-04-07T15:15:45Z seabass[m]: lukego, sure, I forgot that you used NixOS 2021-04-07T15:16:00Z seabass[m]: Even though it's plastered all over that code you displayed :D 2021-04-07T15:16:16Z lukego: I can't remember what sin I am atoning for by using NixOS but it's probably a whopper 2021-04-07T15:16:25Z seabass[m]: aw cute you call your laptop thinky 2021-04-07T15:17:22Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-07T15:17:35Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-04-07T15:18:04Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-04-07T15:18:07Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-04-07T15:19:43Z renzhi quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-07T15:20:39Z jerme_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-07T15:21:58Z sz0 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-04-07T15:22:42Z b20n quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-07T15:23:44Z dunk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-07T15:24:08Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2021-04-07T15:24:42Z jerme_ joined #lisp 2021-04-07T15:24:44Z b20n joined #lisp 2021-04-07T15:24:55Z dunk joined #lisp 2021-04-07T15:25:42Z sz0 joined #lisp 2021-04-07T15:26:16Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-07T15:29:22Z lukego: Here's my latest abuse of unicode, this time because (required-argument) takes too much horizontal space: 2021-04-07T15:29:23Z lukego: (define-symbol-macro ⊥ (error "⊥")) 2021-04-07T15:31:09Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-07T15:31:20Z phoe: required-argument takes an argument name, no? 2021-04-07T15:31:46Z lukego: optionally 2021-04-07T15:31:47Z t99 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-07T15:31:55Z phoe: oh! I see 2021-04-07T15:32:17Z lukego: (defstruct foo (name ⊥ :type string)) ;; scratches an itch for me ... 2021-04-07T15:35:09Z ech joined #lisp 2021-04-07T15:35:29Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-04-07T15:40:18Z _death: it takes a name so that it can produce a better error message 2021-04-07T15:42:03Z lukego: yeah. I never give that name though because I'm always bothered about the verbosity. 2021-04-07T15:42:35Z lukego: (and because often the reason I'm using defstruct in the first place is because I couldn't stand the redundancy of defclass :)) 2021-04-07T15:43:33Z lukego: maybe I should be using one of those easy-defclass macros. 2021-04-07T15:44:04Z lukego: but it's nice to let my hair down and allow myself to indulge some symbol/reader macros and funny syntax sometimes too. 2021-04-07T15:45:03Z _death: it's easy-defclass to those who know and love it.. for others it's "oh man, now I gotta learn another stupid defclass shortcut library to understand this form" 2021-04-07T15:45:39Z _death: that or "now I gotta macroexpand" 2021-04-07T15:46:00Z _death: the former is more likely if I also want to modify it 2021-04-07T15:46:06Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-07T15:46:41Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-07T15:47:40Z lukego: yeah. I guess I've been struggling and failing to get the taste for CLOS for like twenty years now so a crutch might be helpful. but I do have AMOP on order. 2021-04-07T15:48:04Z _death: defclass is verbose, but it's a small price to pay 2021-04-07T15:48:14Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-04-07T15:50:08Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-04-07T15:52:59Z lukego: I have made one apparent step forward by factoring slots out into mixins like (defclass indexed () ((index ...))) when I often use the same slots in various classes 2021-04-07T15:53:28Z lukego: (defclass foo (indexed banked sided) ()) saves a lot of text compared with entering the slots manually every time. 2021-04-07T15:55:15Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-04-07T15:55:30Z beach: lukego: There is redundancy in DEFCLASS only if you don't care about modularity and consistent protocols. 2021-04-07T15:56:10Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-04-07T15:56:34Z lukego: beach: so the Erik Naggums of the world keep telling me, but I don't believe it's as black and white as that. 2021-04-07T15:57:33Z beach: lukego: In practice, not every slot should have an :INITFORM, not every slot should have an :INITARG, not every slot should have a :READER, and not every slot should have a :WRITER. 2021-04-07T15:57:43Z jmercouris: lukego: we use hu.dwim.class star 2021-04-07T15:57:56Z beach: jmercouris: I am sorry to hear that. 2021-04-07T15:57:57Z lukego: to me it sounds like saying that Java class definitions are only verbose if you don't care about scope, mutability, and allocation policy. but that doesn't excuse typing "public static final ..." ten thousand times 2021-04-07T15:58:09Z jmercouris: lukego: it is in my opinion way better than just defclass by itself 2021-04-07T15:58:47Z t99 joined #lisp 2021-04-07T15:59:17Z jmercouris: lukego: here is an example of us using it: https://github.com/atlas-engineer/nyxt/blob/master/source/blocker-mode.lisp 2021-04-07T15:59:35Z jmercouris: beach: I find it quite convenient :-) 2021-04-07T15:59:44Z jmercouris: I can use all of defclass when needed 2021-04-07T15:59:51Z lukego: jmercouris: thanks! I'll try joining you at the philistines table and see how I fit in :) but I am guessing that reading AMOP will change my idea of what is appropriate, for better or worse, and I don't know in what direction 2021-04-07T15:59:58Z jmercouris: Otherwise I use define-class 2021-04-07T16:00:08Z lukego: jmercouris: love your work btw :) have only recently found out about nyxt 2021-04-07T16:00:29Z jmercouris: lukego: thanks, that’s very kind of you to say 2021-04-07T16:00:37Z beach: jmercouris: Yes, it is no doubt quite convenient... if you don't care about modularity and consistent protocols, like I said. 2021-04-07T16:00:46Z lukego: beach: I'm often just creating internal data structures and not public interfaces. the way in other languages one might use a throw-away dictionary or tuple. 2021-04-07T16:00:51Z jmercouris: Sometimes I do, sometimes I don’t 2021-04-07T16:01:02Z jmercouris: It depends on whether I’m writing a library or an application 2021-04-07T16:01:15Z beach: Wow. 2021-04-07T16:02:54Z jmercouris: beach: you are a much more conservative programmer than me :-D 2021-04-07T16:02:55Z beach: lukego: Even for those, it pays off to think about what kind of options you want to give to MAKE-INSTANCE, what slots you want to be writable, etc. 2021-04-07T16:03:46Z long4mud quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-07T16:03:47Z jmercouris: If Encapsulation is important, you’ll end up writing getters and setters anyways 2021-04-07T16:04:00Z beach: Er, what? 2021-04-07T16:04:39Z jmercouris: Talking about using class instances as a way to pass state around , instead of thinking about them as objects 2021-04-07T16:04:54Z beach: Don't tell me you write things like (defmethod get-stuff (x) (slot-value x 'stuff)). 2021-04-07T16:05:07Z jmercouris: beach: of course not 11 2021-04-07T16:05:16Z jmercouris: I’ll just add an accessor 2021-04-07T16:05:42Z jmercouris: I do write getters sometimes that have more logic than that though 2021-04-07T16:06:43Z beach: Those are known as "slot readers" and "slot writers", not "getters" "setters". 2021-04-07T16:07:00Z beach: And you can always write auxiliary methods on the corresponding generic functions. 2021-04-07T16:08:18Z beach: There is typically always a slot reader, but not always a slot writer on a slot. 2021-04-07T16:08:37Z aartaka_d quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-07T16:08:43Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-04-07T16:08:44Z beach: ... independently of encapsulation issues. 2021-04-07T16:09:46Z beach: In particular, you may not want to use :ACCESSOR if you want client code to read the slot, but not write it. 2021-04-07T16:10:43Z beach: ... since the same symbol can be used both to read and write the slot then. 2021-04-07T16:10:49Z mfiano: I even go as far as to define a %-prefixed accessor in addition to a reader that is exported, rather than use slot-value for internal code, since it is often wanted to extend that protocol 2021-04-07T16:11:12Z beach: Exactly. 2021-04-07T16:11:26Z beach: It doesn't have to be prefixed as long as it is not exported. 2021-04-07T16:11:37Z mfiano: Right. It's just a convention 2021-04-07T16:11:48Z jackdaniel: if the reader is exported, then (setf reader) is kinda exported too 2021-04-07T16:11:49Z beach: I sometimes do (%name :reader name :writer (setf other-name)) 2021-04-07T16:11:50Z mfiano: One that is recognizxed by others at that, but mostly personal :) 2021-04-07T16:11:57Z mfiano: err recognized* 2021-04-07T16:12:00Z beach: jackdaniel: Exactly my point, yes. 2021-04-07T16:12:22Z mfiano: Yes, that was what I was implying. 2021-04-07T16:12:49Z beach: But sometimes I just use REINITIALIZE-INSTANCE internally. 2021-04-07T16:12:57Z mfiano: If I don't want users to write, I'll export a symbol used for :reader, and give myself a non-exported symbol for :accessor/:writer 2021-04-07T16:13:10Z beach: Right. 2021-04-07T16:13:22Z jackdaniel: howerver given that you bother to write down how to use your system and you do not mention the writer (setf foo), then if someone uses it then it is violating the library protocol 2021-04-07T16:13:33Z gxt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-07T16:14:02Z jackdaniel: so it is still kind of internal 2021-04-07T16:14:16Z lukego: This may shock you guys but I sometimes even pass around data as *lists of atoms* :) 2021-04-07T16:14:18Z beach: jackdaniel: Sure. But it is good to give warnings or errors in case of incorrect use. 2021-04-07T16:14:27Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2021-04-07T16:15:38Z gxt joined #lisp 2021-04-07T16:16:00Z mfiano: It surprises me at how many codebases use the same symbol name for the slot as the accessor (in the general sense, not :accessor) 2021-04-07T16:16:02Z ech quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-07T16:16:09Z long4mud joined #lisp 2021-04-07T16:16:11Z mfiano: THat is an accident waiting to happen in most cases 2021-04-07T16:16:13Z jackdaniel: beach: I tentatively agree but one could consider adding (setf %extra) accessors clobbering from the code perspective (and one more sub-protocol to keep in mind when working on the system) 2021-04-07T16:16:33Z ech joined #lisp 2021-04-07T16:16:54Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-04-07T16:16:57Z beach: Sure. 2021-04-07T16:16:58Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-04-07T16:17:05Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-04-07T16:17:07Z lukego: It bothers me how much this discussion sounds like #java in the 1990s :( 2021-04-07T16:17:42Z jackdaniel: that sounds as if some very smart people worked on java back then ;-) 2021-04-07T16:17:52Z pve: lukego: you might use emacs to generate an initial defclass form for you, and then edit as necessary 2021-04-07T16:17:52Z lukego: The whole "ravioli code" concept with layers of empty calories between every tiny morsel of meat :) 2021-04-07T16:18:02Z pve: instead of a CL macro, I mean 2021-04-07T16:18:15Z lukego: pve: okay now you're just copy-pasting from a java forum I'm sure of it :) 2021-04-07T16:18:26Z pve: haha no I'm serious 2021-04-07T16:19:21Z pve: you end up with a defclass form that everyone understands, without having to type it all out 2021-04-07T16:19:51Z lukego: This is the big challenge with CLOS for me. I don't /want/ to agree with what you guys are saying :) I like the kind of Lisp code that Peter Norvig writes and he's more likely to use DEFCLASS with :TYPE LIST than any of this business 2021-04-07T16:19:56Z lukego: DEFSTRUCT rather 2021-04-07T16:22:04Z lukego: but maybe it is more of an applications verses libraries thing. I'm writing code that I expect to churn quickly and not be seen by anyone else's eyes before being rewritten a couple of times. so it doesn't seem rational to spend time worrying about how a hypothetical unknown third party might interact with this code. different situation if you're pushing libraries to github/quicklisp. 2021-04-07T16:23:46Z jmercouris: You’ve nailed it 2021-04-07T16:24:04Z jmercouris: All of the advice so far has been given within the context of third party consumers and some robust foundation 2021-04-07T16:24:17Z jmercouris: When neither exist, it is a pointless exercise 2021-04-07T16:24:42Z beach: Sure. If you don't expose your code to anyone else, you can do whatever you want. 2021-04-07T16:24:50Z lukego: Thank you :) 2021-04-07T16:24:59Z beach: Who needs DEFSTRUCT anyway. You can just use CAR/CDR. 2021-04-07T16:25:42Z lukego: I can also understand that if you spend time teaching people to program in Lisp, you will want to be focusing on the best practices for doing this properly, since people can always use their judgement to take shortcuts later. 2021-04-07T16:25:47Z jmercouris: Not sure if your being sarcastic, but Eitaro would agree with you 2021-04-07T16:25:55Z jmercouris: You’re * 2021-04-07T16:26:01Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-04-07T16:26:17Z jmercouris: He uses lists for everything! 2021-04-07T16:26:28Z lukego: I'm reading some ACL2 code that has page-long definitions on which each line is of the form (defun foo-quux (foo) (caddddddddddr foo)) 2021-04-07T16:26:51Z Xach: there's also a big difference between "there's no reason for [the way defclass works]" and "i don't like how it works" or "the problems that it solves aren't that important to me" etc 2021-04-07T16:26:58Z beach: jmercouris: I am saying that DEFSTRUCT is already a way to make your code more modular and with defined protocols. If you don't think you need such things, there might be no point in using DEFSTRUCT either. Lists could be more flexible. 2021-04-07T16:27:00Z Gnuxie[m]: I hope you are including co-workers as third parties 2021-04-07T16:27:01Z Xach: change [the way defclass works] to whatever you like 2021-04-07T16:27:10Z lukego: so even for throw-away code I appreciate easy ways to get accessors, places to hang print functions, etc. 2021-04-07T16:27:21Z jmercouris: beach: agreed 2021-04-07T16:27:51Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-07T16:27:53Z beach: Gnuxie[m]: I include my future self as a third party. 2021-04-07T16:28:09Z beach: Gnuxie[m]: But that might be because of my notorious bad memory. 2021-04-07T16:28:17Z lukego: beach: that's a good point. in other languages I would do exactly that e.g. if they have pattern matching to make it convenient. could well be that in serapeum there are such facilities and some of my structs could be lists because I don't need dedicated accessor functions. 2021-04-07T16:28:41Z Bike: i wish structure objects were defined with defclass, and defstruct was a library macro to define accessors with convenient names 2021-04-07T16:28:48Z lukego makes mental note to read some idiomatic serapeum code e.g. implementation of serapeum itself 2021-04-07T16:29:19Z Gnuxie[m]: beach: that's wise 2021-04-07T16:29:34Z Gnuxie[m]: gives yourself less work in either case 2021-04-07T16:30:06Z jackdaniel: Bike: in the vast undefined behavior (defclass foo () () (:metaclass structure-class)) works on some implementations 2021-04-07T16:30:36Z Bike: yeah. that's nice. 2021-04-07T16:30:39Z beach: Bike: Your wish is my command! :) 2021-04-07T16:31:02Z Bike: mm hm 2021-04-07T16:31:04Z jackdaniel: ah, but adding slots doesn't work so nice 2021-04-07T16:31:19Z splittist: mixins and generic functions are a great way to allow for unforeseen behaviour modification. And every time I worry about performance I tell myself the world now runs on javascript over the network. 2021-04-07T16:31:27Z lukego: Gnuxie[m]: I do a lot of rewriting. I'll probably rewrite all this particular code at least a couple of times before I share it with anyone else. I've already rewritten much of it once. 2021-04-07T16:31:29Z Bike: you'd probably have to do something funky to ensure the class is defined at enough at compile time to allow subclassing 2021-04-07T16:31:37Z Bike: while keeping the fast access, i mean 2021-04-07T16:31:41Z Shinmera: splittist: My game engine makes heavy use of CLOS :) 2021-04-07T16:31:54Z sauvin_ joined #lisp 2021-04-07T16:32:09Z jackdaniel: ah, that's it, I've tried redefining foo, when I define a "fresh" class, then I can put slots in there 2021-04-07T16:33:06Z mfiano: My game engine makes heavy use of structure-object and standard-object 2021-04-07T16:33:19Z Bike: defstruct has to do funky stuff of that kind. defstruct is kind of entirely funky stuff 2021-04-07T16:33:26Z jackdaniel: funcallable-standard-object idea is also cool 2021-04-07T16:33:37Z Bike: well, doesn't have to, but does if defstructs have any point over defclass 2021-04-07T16:33:45Z Bike: i'm pretty sure sbcl has funcallable structure objects 2021-04-07T16:33:54Z jackdaniel: well, they are mandated by mop 2021-04-07T16:33:54Z Bike: internally, obvs 2021-04-07T16:33:55Z VincentVega joined #lisp 2021-04-07T16:33:59Z Bike: they are? 2021-04-07T16:34:12Z VincentVega: Hi! Is there a portable way to suppress a redefinition warning? 2021-04-07T16:34:12Z jackdaniel: ah, funcallable *structure* object 2021-04-07T16:34:21Z jackdaniel: I've meant *standard* :) 2021-04-07T16:34:25Z Bike: ah. yeah. 2021-04-07T16:34:25Z sauvin quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-04-07T16:35:18Z pve: lukego: I once worked on an old application that stored everything (or a lot, anyway) in symbol plists. A curious design choice, but it did work.. 2021-04-07T16:35:36Z Bike: i would also like upgraded-structure-slot-type and a pony. 2021-04-07T16:36:06Z lukego: pve: thank you for normalizing the use of whatever quirky representation one prefers in the privacy of one's own codebase :) 2021-04-07T16:36:14Z jackdaniel: I have a turtle and upgraded-array-type, will do? ,) 2021-04-07T16:36:17Z jackdaniel gets back to work 2021-04-07T16:36:22Z Bike: turtles are nice too. 2021-04-07T16:36:33Z Xach: If your program does something very useful, people will often adapt to it, rather than demand vice versa 2021-04-07T16:37:03Z mfiano: THat's a major problem with Lisp. People often care more about the code than the artifact 2021-04-07T16:37:41Z ikrabbe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-07T16:38:14Z Xach: It's a problem with many forms of endeavor - obsession with the tools and their proper use rather than the product of the tools. But there's no denying that a nice tool, used properly, is a delight. 2021-04-07T16:38:17Z pve: lukego: I just assumed it was a trendy style in the early 90's and left it at that :) 2021-04-07T16:38:36Z lukego: I'll admit that I allow myself to spend much more creative energy on editing Lisp code than most other languages. I enjoy that though. keeps me amused while I'm programming 2021-04-07T16:38:45Z Xach thinks of people who post pictures of their workbench and planes rather than the useful objects produced with them 2021-04-07T16:39:04Z Shinmera: I hate my level editor a whole lot, but simply don't have the time to make it nice. 2021-04-07T16:39:13Z Shinmera: In some ways, having deadlines and such pressures is good. 2021-04-07T16:40:05Z Bike: if you're a compiler dev your work is increasingly elaborate pictures of workbenches 2021-04-07T16:40:15Z pve: lukego: but to be fair, it was written mostly by computational linguists who only wanted to get the job done 2021-04-07T16:40:41Z beach: Shinmera: Do you have a deadline for your game? 2021-04-07T16:40:47Z ikrabbe joined #lisp 2021-04-07T16:41:12Z Shinmera: Well the most pressing deadline is me running out of money, so I have to be very smart with that. 2021-04-07T16:41:26Z beach: Hmm, yes, I see. 2021-04-07T16:41:36Z Shinmera: Other than that we also have a release schedule we're aiming for, which is roughly 2 years from now. 2021-04-07T16:44:33Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-04-07T16:44:39Z beach: Deadlines far in the future are tough. 2021-04-07T16:45:26Z akoana joined #lisp 2021-04-07T16:49:08Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-07T16:53:16Z ikrabbe|2 joined #lisp 2021-04-07T16:53:31Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-07T16:54:11Z ikrabbe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-07T16:56:46Z shka_: see: the global warming 2021-04-07T16:59:41Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-07T16:59:45Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-07T17:00:01Z curtosis joined #lisp 2021-04-07T17:01:41Z t99_ joined #lisp 2021-04-07T17:04:15Z t99 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-07T17:04:30Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-07T17:07:33Z ikrabbe|2 is now known as ikrabbe 2021-04-07T17:09:10Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-04-07T17:10:38Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-04-07T17:11:01Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-04-07T17:12:26Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-04-07T17:12:31Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-04-07T17:12:36Z davisr_ joined #lisp 2021-04-07T17:12:53Z ikrabbe quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-07T17:13:42Z _death: jackdaniel: I'm surprised ;).. I expected some resistance, at least for the draw-arrow stuff, if not the keybindings (which I supposed must have had some good reason not to be there in the last 20 years) 2021-04-07T17:14:48Z jackdaniel: _death: after testing them I've decided that they are fine (and minor) 2021-04-07T17:14:59Z davisr quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-07T17:15:08Z jackdaniel: thanks! 2021-04-07T17:16:11Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-04-07T17:17:40Z _death: jackdaniel: cool :).. I also had to patch the coordinates stuff, which currently has exact comparisons incl. on floats that causes trouble with ellipses, but I noticed the commented version and some old mcclim-devel discussions and some issues on github so I thought another approach may be on the queue 2021-04-07T17:18:38Z jackdaniel: I want to change the ellipse representation from parralelogram to something more stable (transformation-wise) 2021-04-07T17:19:20Z _death: yeah, that's one of things I gathered.. the exact comparisons may caused issues elsewhere too 2021-04-07T17:19:39Z kevingal_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-07T17:19:58Z jackdaniel: comparisons are one issue, but the current code can error because of a non-reversible transformation (due to rounding errors) 2021-04-07T17:20:12Z jackdaniel: i.e after trying to rotate the ellipse 2021-04-07T17:20:51Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2021-04-07T17:21:10Z _death: right.. there are two issues.. the inversion is easy to reproduce with the Fig example, and the comparison is easy with https://www.artm-friends.at/rm/kytron/kytron-clim.html (after small tweaks to make it work) 2021-04-07T17:22:07Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I guess the most annoying issue right now is the repeated mapping and unmapping (with lots of match error 42) that happens if I switch windows in stumpwm, usually once per application frame.. also, (setf clim:*default-server-path* :clx) looks cool and retro :) 2021-04-07T17:31:47Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-04-07T17:33:47Z _death: (to make clear, this issue is not limited to scigraph.. it often happens with any arbitrary application frame) 2021-04-07T17:34:25Z jackdaniel: the only moment I've worked with scigraph was the effort to make it "start" 2021-04-07T17:34:36Z jackdaniel: so I won't be much help with it :) 2021-04-07T17:34:49Z Sheilong joined #lisp 2021-04-07T17:35:15Z davisr quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2021-04-07T17:39:28Z dinnu93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-07T17:43:15Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2021-04-07T17:43:43Z gitgood joined #lisp 2021-04-07T17:46:30Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2021-04-07T18:19:09Z hypercube joined #lisp 2021-04-07T18:19:11Z sauvin_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-07T18:19:19Z hypercube: minion: source code 2021-04-07T18:19:22Z minion: please stop playing with me... i am not a toy 2021-04-07T18:19:48Z hypercube: lol im just curious about how u work 2021-04-07T18:20:43Z phoe: hypercube: https://github.com/stassats/lisp-bots/ 2021-04-07T18:21:12Z hypercube: oh awesome, thank you phoe! 2021-04-07T18:23:38Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-04-07T18:25:58Z Codaraxis joined #lisp 2021-04-07T18:27:21Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-04-07T18:28:18Z Codaraxis_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-07T18:29:26Z phoe: I've updated the minion cliki page, now it points to that repo 2021-04-07T18:29:29Z phoe: minion: tell phoe about minion 2021-04-07T18:29:29Z minion: minion: https://www.cliki.net/minion 2021-04-07T18:30:05Z zupss quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-04-07T18:30:15Z zupss joined #lisp 2021-04-07T18:34:36Z gabc: phoe: just received your book, thanks for making it :) 2021-04-07T18:34:37Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-07T18:34:45Z phoe: gabc: hope it serves you well 2021-04-07T18:35:18Z Keyboard1orrier quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-07T18:36:03Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2021-04-07T18:36:18Z albusp: Trying to get sly working with emacs, currently I don't have slynk running (no lisp process active), and indenting code in *.lisp files gives the error "Symbol’s function definition is void: sly-common-lisp-indent-function". I'm checking sly.el and others, and found a line in slynk.lisp mentioning the function: https://github.com/joaotavora/sly/blob/e927cdae984b2c3383e1e2358e37f1a4115b142e/slynk/slynk.lisp#L3996. 2021-04-07T18:36:21Z albusp: Does this mean the indent function will appear after a slynk starts running? 2021-04-07T18:37:03Z phoe: albusp: do you by any chance have sly and slime installed/loaded at the same time? 2021-04-07T18:37:21Z albusp: no, I removed slime after issues. 2021-04-07T18:37:55Z albusp: slynk is not yet running because it doesn't compile on abcl (yet - i'm trying to fix it) 2021-04-07T18:38:18Z albusp: maybe I should try sbcl case to see if the indent is running. let's see... 2021-04-07T18:41:55Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2021-04-07T18:42:10Z pjb quit (Quit: upgrading to Bug Sure :-/) 2021-04-07T18:43:36Z albusp: yes, indent function appears after a slynk starts. :) 2021-04-07T18:48:04Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2021-04-07T18:48:41Z Krystof quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-07T18:52:25Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-07T18:52:39Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-04-07T18:56:42Z curtosis quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. 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If you really wanted to just use conses for everything, though, CL isn't really the right language for that because they're not optimized. (destructuring-bind is a very nice macro for handling conses, though) 2021-04-07T20:01:51Z phossil joined #lisp 2021-04-07T20:03:40Z silasfox` joined #lisp 2021-04-07T20:04:06Z silasfox quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-04-07T20:04:18Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-07T20:04:36Z silasfox` left #lisp 2021-04-07T20:04:53Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-07T20:05:26Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2021-04-07T20:11:00Z kevingal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-07T20:15:13Z Krystof joined #lisp 2021-04-07T20:15:57Z lawt joined #lisp 2021-04-07T20:17:20Z yitzi quit (Quit: yitzi) 2021-04-07T20:18:11Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-07T20:18:25Z galex-713_ joined #lisp 2021-04-07T20:18:27Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2021-04-07T20:21:24Z curtosis quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. 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I won't make an example for transitivity. 2021-04-07T22:10:36Z jmercouris: Not sure who you are explaining what to 2021-04-07T22:10:37Z Helmholtz quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-07T22:11:00Z no-defun-allowed: You. 2021-04-07T22:11:44Z jmercouris: Oh I see 2021-04-07T22:11:53Z jmercouris: No need, I understand this concept already 2021-04-07T22:13:33Z ech quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-07T22:14:29Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-07T22:16:55Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-04-07T22:17:12Z no-defun-allowed: So it would be evident why "equivalent" has a particular meaning when used in the context of Lisp evaluation? 2021-04-07T22:17:23Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-07T22:18:59Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-04-07T22:20:29Z ech joined #lisp 2021-04-07T22:23:55Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-07T22:24:30Z maiqthefalse joined #lisp 2021-04-07T22:26:43Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-07T22:26:58Z no-defun-allowed: (Actually, that is probably not even the case in Haskell or Miranda. We might say 2 and 1 + 1 are equivalent forms, but an evaluator for one of those languages might reduce 1 + 1 to 2, but not the other way around.) 2021-04-07T22:29:39Z sm2n: blah blah referential transparency, they are equal within the denotational semantics of the language 2021-04-07T22:29:47Z sm2n: (in haskell or whatever) 2021-04-07T22:30:37Z sm2n: in pure fp things are given their identity by their normal form under reduction, by church-rosser or related 2021-04-07T22:30:49Z sm2n: (assuming your stuff terminates) 2021-04-07T22:35:04Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-07T22:35:29Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-04-07T22:49:23Z hiroaki_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2021-04-07T22:49:23Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2021-04-07T22:51:02Z akoana left #lisp 2021-04-07T22:53:13Z igemnace joined #lisp 2021-04-07T22:54:48Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-04-07T22:56:17Z phantomics: Hey all, wondering if there's a library that converts HTML-encoded characters like " to Unicode. Tried some HTML parsers that didn't do it and can't see anything to do it on CL package lists 2021-04-07T23:01:42Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-07T23:13:56Z raeda: The numeric encoding is the code point number iirc. SBCL has unicode lookup by code point and you might be able to use CL-PPCRE to find & replace 2021-04-07T23:14:16Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-04-07T23:14:27Z raeda: Not sure if there's any good way to convert the named escapes like < 2021-04-07T23:15:54Z KeyboardWorrier joined #lisp 2021-04-07T23:21:24Z lotuseater quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-04-07T23:23:16Z sxmx quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-04-07T23:23:39Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-04-07T23:25:18Z phossil_ joined #lisp 2021-04-07T23:25:31Z phossil joined #lisp 2021-04-07T23:29:51Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-04-07T23:30:00Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-04-07T23:33:11Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-07T23:34:04Z Xach: phantomics: see the html-entities system 2021-04-07T23:34:16Z Codaraxis quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-07T23:34:39Z Codaraxis joined #lisp 2021-04-07T23:34:49Z Xach: (html-entities:decode-entities "<">") => "<\">" 2021-04-07T23:35:11Z hypercube quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-07T23:35:27Z phantomics: Xach: thanks 2021-04-07T23:36:11Z t99 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-07T23:41:47Z moon-child: no-defun-allowed, sm2n: no denotational semantics required, you can define equality strictly in terms of halting 2021-04-07T23:42:16Z Codaraxis quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-07T23:42:36Z Codaraxis joined #lisp 2021-04-07T23:43:02Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-07T23:43:07Z moon-child: given two expressions e1 and e2 in some language L, consider the universe of hole-containing programs within L. For each of those programs, substitute each of e1 and e2 for the hole. If there's any case when e1 causes a halt and e2 does not (or vice versa) then the expressions are not equivalent 2021-04-07T23:43:10Z moon-child: otherwise they are 2021-04-07T23:43:52Z sxmx joined #lisp 2021-04-07T23:45:17Z torbo joined #lisp 2021-04-07T23:47:00Z phossil_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2021-04-07T23:48:07Z Codaraxis quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-07T23:48:26Z Codaraxis joined #lisp 2021-04-07T23:53:51Z no-defun-allowed: This is somewhat more interesting than arguing that EVAL is not an equivalence relation. 2021-04-07T23:57:22Z amerlyq joined #lisp 2021-04-08T00:12:50Z montxero joined #lisp 2021-04-08T00:16:25Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-08T00:20:38Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-08T00:24:25Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-08T00:24:49Z eddof13 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-08T00:26:56Z hypercube joined #lisp 2021-04-08T00:29:27Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-08T00:29:57Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-08T00:38:19Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-08T00:42:03Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-08T00:43:02Z chipolux joined #lisp 2021-04-08T00:46:11Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-08T00:48:46Z hypercube quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-04-08T00:49:05Z hypercube joined #lisp 2021-04-08T00:49:56Z hypercube quit (Client Quit) 2021-04-08T00:50:34Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-04-08T01:18:30Z sm2n: moon-child: what about a language like idris where all well-formed programs are guaranteed to halt? 2021-04-08T01:18:35Z sm2n: that doesn't seem right 2021-04-08T01:21:11Z moon-child: sm2n: then idris is not turing-complete? 2021-04-08T01:21:38Z sm2n: strictly speaking, I believe so 2021-04-08T01:21:43Z moon-child: I don't think that definition is usually applied to non turing-complete languages 2021-04-08T01:22:09Z Bike: i don't understand this definition even without fancy schmancy programmin' languages 2021-04-08T01:22:17Z Bike: er, wait 2021-04-08T01:22:21Z sm2n: you have to prove all the bounds on your computations statically in idris 2021-04-08T01:22:23Z Bike: are you saying do this for all possible programs? 2021-04-08T01:22:26Z sm2n: yeah 2021-04-08T01:22:40Z Bike: oh, well then that works. 2021-04-08T01:23:00Z Bike: you're including programs like (unless (= _ 4) (loop)) after all 2021-04-08T01:23:17Z moon-child: right 2021-04-08T01:23:39Z moon-child: the advantage of that definition is that it works for all turing-complete languages without needing to have any knowledge of their semantics beyond that 2021-04-08T01:24:07Z sm2n: cool, I learned something today, thanks 2021-04-08T01:24:29Z moon-child: :) 2021-04-08T01:28:41Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-08T01:30:59Z sm2n: or actually, moon-child, do you happen to have a reference that discusses this? I'd like to read more about it 2021-04-08T01:31:54Z logand``` joined #lisp 2021-04-08T01:33:43Z DHARMAKAYA joined #lisp 2021-04-08T01:35:26Z logand`` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-08T01:36:31Z chipolux quit (Quit: chipolux) 2021-04-08T01:37:17Z trcm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-08T01:38:06Z torbo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-08T01:38:07Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-04-08T01:38:28Z trcm joined #lisp 2021-04-08T01:39:13Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-04-08T01:43:02Z jeosol joined #lisp 2021-04-08T01:47:11Z ikrabbe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-08T01:47:17Z ikrabbe|2 joined #lisp 2021-04-08T01:58:44Z ikrabbe joined #lisp 2021-04-08T01:59:21Z montxero quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-08T02:02:08Z ikrabbe|2 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-08T02:03:46Z DHARMAKAYA quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-08T02:31:41Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-08T02:32:33Z kmeow quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-08T02:38:21Z patrixl quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-04-08T02:44:26Z phossil quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-08T02:44:29Z lawt quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-08T02:47:39Z lawt joined #lisp 2021-04-08T02:56:26Z jeosol quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-04-08T02:56:50Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-08T03:07:10Z mmmattyx quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-04-08T03:07:33Z scm_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-08T03:09:50Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2021-04-08T03:12:47Z quazimodo quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-04-08T03:13:05Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2021-04-08T03:13:12Z lukego: Thanks everyone for the rigorous discussion of datatype definition styles yesterday. I reread the Serapeum docs from beginning to end to try and update my mental model. For really ad-hoc internal data structures I need to experiment with DICT/MATCH and with DEFUNION. 2021-04-08T03:14:04Z xlei quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-08T03:14:16Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-04-08T03:18:59Z lukego: Maybe DEFCLASS verses DEFCLASS-STD (etc) is a false dichotomy and really there are a lot of different contexts for defining datatypes that each call for a separate mechanism. kinda like IF and WHEN and UNLESS and so on. 2021-04-08T03:19:31Z DHARMAKAYA joined #lisp 2021-04-08T03:19:54Z lukego: I notice though that all this obsessing about how to define datatypes has not actually caused my broken program to start working and maybe I should try a different approach to that problem... 2021-04-08T03:24:24Z klltkr quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-04-08T03:36:16Z Josh_2: just use lists, simple az 2021-04-08T03:37:28Z beach: I think we heard all the arguments around half a day ago. 2021-04-08T03:40:43Z beach: I completely misunderstood the context and thought lukego and jmercouris were talking about the use of these operators in more-or-less final code, but it became clear that they meant the use in code that is highly likely to change, to be rewritten, or to be deleted entirely. 2021-04-08T03:41:57Z lukego: beach: I am feeling less provoked by your "if you don't care about X" comments when I read that as "when you are not immediately concerned about X in your present context" rather than "when you are a bad person because you don't give X due respect" :) 2021-04-08T03:42:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: iI see I missed all the fun 2021-04-08T03:43:22Z beach: lukego: Sure, that's a good interpretation in your case. Not so with many others who come here and who have no idea about elementary software engineering. 2021-04-08T03:43:37Z DanklyTuned quit (Quit: nyaa~) 2021-04-08T03:44:11Z no-defun-allowed: fiddlerwoaroof: Yes, you're supposed to use generic functions, i.e. no defun. Cancel out the two negatives, and you have only fun. 2021-04-08T03:44:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: I personally really dislike non-extensible conditional constructs 2021-04-08T03:44:36Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-04-08T03:44:40Z lukego: it's a new revelation to me now though that there are a bunch of other macros, e.g. DEFCONSTRUCTOR from Serapeum, that actually capture the context i.e. that is something that you only use for a quick and simple local representation of immutable structures. 2021-04-08T03:44:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: e.g. I almost always use generic functions instead of case/cond and friends 2021-04-08T03:45:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: And, what I've noticed, is that almost all "functional" programming languages use constructs that are OOP in CLOS's sense 2021-04-08T03:46:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: Clojure's multimethods are just a bad version of CLOS and Haskell has typeclasses everywhere, which basically are a compile-time version of generic dispatch 2021-04-08T03:46:15Z lukego: and that puts me off defclass-std as being "yet another defclass" rather than something complementary that's tailored to a more specific use case. 2021-04-08T03:46:47Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: You must have missed the general consensus here in #lisp that you should avoid generic functions since they are bad for performance. 2021-04-08T03:47:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't worry about performance until I have to 2021-04-08T03:47:08Z beach hasn't finished his coffee yet, and feels cranky still. 2021-04-08T03:47:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: I guess I'm a bad programmer 2021-04-08T03:47:17Z Josh_2: beach: that was the general consensus? Folks must have gone mad ;) 2021-04-08T03:47:19Z beach: I guess so. 2021-04-08T03:47:27Z beach: Josh_2: I am joking. 2021-04-08T03:48:05Z Josh_2: :P 2021-04-08T03:48:45Z lukego: I liked splittist's comment that the rest of the world is built in Javascript these days so there's nothing particularly indulgent about using all the generics and indirections you please. Chrome has reset the bar on what is appropriate resource utilization by software and we can all rejoice in our relative thrift :) 2021-04-08T03:49:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: JS is pretty fast, though 2021-04-08T03:49:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: Like, I think it's probably hard to right a compiler for a dynamic language that comes close to V8 2021-04-08T03:49:51Z beach: lukego: Facts like that don't seem to prevent eternal discussions about performance. Not to mention the size of executables. 2021-04-08T03:50:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: I mean, like 90% of companies run on some combination of Python, Ruby or PHP 2021-04-08T03:50:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: If we want to talk about performance not mattering 2021-04-08T03:50:59Z sxmx quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-04-08T03:51:14Z beach: That's very sobering to hear. 2021-04-08T03:51:18Z lukego: fiddlerwoaroof: so much the better :) writing slow code is contributing to computer science by stimulating compiler research, just look at javascript... 2021-04-08T03:51:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: The great thing about CL is that I find I can just write CL in most situations where I'd use FFI in Python 2021-04-08T03:51:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: Not to mention actually being able to benefit from multiple threads of executin 2021-04-08T03:51:59Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-08T03:52:32Z beach: The more I hear about Python (the language) the more I think it's a joke, and the more I am totally baffled why anyone would want to use it. 2021-04-08T03:52:47Z jeosol joined #lisp 2021-04-08T03:52:53Z Josh_2: its easy and promoted a lot 2021-04-08T03:52:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's all about the libraries, really 2021-04-08T03:53:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: Also, it's relatively quick to go from nothing to a proof of concept in Python 2021-04-08T03:54:28Z mfiano: I don't buy the last bit 2021-04-08T03:54:40Z lukego: I like that "I must program as inefficiently as possible" mantra. that it's healthy mental exercise to burn CPU cycles and you should strive to do it as much as you can get away with. 2021-04-08T03:55:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: :) 2021-04-08T03:55:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: lukego: "only optimize problems you can measure" is pretty standard advice 2021-04-08T03:55:56Z lukego: or maybe we should fight to get our own code a respectable share of our CPU's cycles relative to e.g. Chrome and the idle loop :) 2021-04-08T03:56:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't take a program seriously that doesn't pin at least one CPU core and consume 4GB of RAM 2021-04-08T03:58:19Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-08T03:59:31Z lukego: (also my code is working now and it's massively improved compared with the previous messy version so thanks everybody who helped me pick the right color for my bikeshed, it worked out in the end) 2021-04-08T03:59:55Z DHARMAKAYA quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-08T04:01:00Z lukego: I really notice that after a break from Lisp hacking it takes a while to reabsorb all the old idioms and learn new ones. a bit like taking a break from speaking english. big languages full of nuance that are always evolving. 2021-04-08T04:01:23Z beach: I am reminded of the remarks by several students in the past when they were given a bad grade on some programs: "But it works!!!". 2021-04-08T04:02:33Z beach: lukego: Congratulations to being back! 2021-04-08T04:02:40Z lukego: thanks :) 2021-04-08T04:02:52Z motersen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-08T04:03:09Z motersen joined #lisp 2021-04-08T04:05:33Z zooey quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-08T04:09:35Z zooey joined #lisp 2021-04-08T04:11:57Z phossil joined #lisp 2021-04-08T04:13:24Z marusich joined #lisp 2021-04-08T04:18:27Z phossil is now known as tophullyte 2021-04-08T04:18:54Z tophullyte quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-08T04:27:02Z tophullyte joined #lisp 2021-04-08T04:29:25Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-04-08T04:32:59Z no-defun-allowed: beach: From memory, the marking system at my last university was predominantly marking what ran. Who were you teaching? 2021-04-08T04:36:42Z asarch joined #lisp 2021-04-08T04:37:01Z tophullyte quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-08T04:38:40Z beach: Final year undergraduates and first year masters students. The message was always that a program that works but that is unmaintainable is useless because it must be thrown away when the requirements change, but a program that does not work but is maintainable can be made to work more easily. 2021-04-08T04:39:10Z beach: So we read the code of each program and graded (marked) it according to these criteria. 2021-04-08T04:40:01Z beach: I am totally sure that this is still the case for the masters students, because I know the person running that course very well, and we share the same values when it comes to software development. 2021-04-08T04:40:15Z no-defun-allowed: I see. 2021-04-08T04:40:17Z beach: For the undergraduates, I haven't kept up, so I don't know. 2021-04-08T04:43:46Z beach: It was a lot of work, of course. But more to the point, this kind of grading requires the teachers to be competent in software development, and that is typically not the case when they are hired, as I have already explained. So these teachers had to invest a lot of time reading and writing code, books, and articles about software development. 2021-04-08T04:44:48Z beach: And that time was not explicitly paid. In fact, by spending that time on teaching rather than on some narrow research, their careers were often delayed. 2021-04-08T04:47:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've always thought that the way universities have seemed to unified research professors and teaching professors is bad for everyon 2021-04-08T04:48:12Z moon-child: fiddlerwoaroof: I think the theory, at least, is to avoid 'those who can't do teach' 2021-04-08T04:48:46Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: Not usually. Take mathematics or the sciences (physics, chemistry). The undergraduate teaching doesn't require them to keep up, or to acquire skills from industry. The material is the same from one year to another. 2021-04-08T04:49:24Z beach: The problem is that the computer science programs accepted to take on the teaching of programming and software development. 2021-04-08T04:49:33Z lukego: I approach software development more like the way people advise writers to write. lots of drafts and rewrites and darlings and murders and so on. but desired end result is still the same as people who do things right first time. 2021-04-08T04:50:03Z beach: If they had stayed with theory, like computability, complexity theory, etc. There would be no problem. 2021-04-08T04:50:32Z lukego: I often don't even compile my first version of a program before rewriting it - just dump it out into emacs to organize my thoughts - so I really don't want to spend cycles thinking about optimization or maintainability or even syntax errors in that context. 2021-04-08T04:50:35Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-08T04:50:46Z tophullyte joined #lisp 2021-04-08T04:50:53Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2021-04-08T04:51:07Z beach: lukego: What's the context? 2021-04-08T04:51:38Z beach: lukego: As in, what prompted you to say that? 2021-04-08T04:51:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, my background is mostly in the humanities (grad school and undergrad): but, my experience there was that the professors who were really good at research often weren't great to have as a teacher while the ones that you wanted to teach you often weren't the people who are famous for their ideas 2021-04-08T04:51:57Z no-defun-allowed: beach: I think lukego is continuing with the discussion on performance. 2021-04-08T04:52:04Z beach: Oh! 2021-04-08T04:52:25Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: I can imagine that, sure. 2021-04-08T04:52:50Z lukego: beach: mostly just reflecting on friction in the discussion yesterday, specifically realizing that when I'm in "rough first draft that won't even compile" mode I'll naturally be at odds with your advice about how to write clean code that will pass formal review. 2021-04-08T04:52:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: Anyways, I'll go back to being on-topic 2021-04-08T04:52:55Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: The problem in software development is that we have no good way to select knowledgeable teachers. 2021-04-08T04:53:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, measuring "teaching" as such is always the challenge 2021-04-08T04:53:30Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: And in software development, there is the problem of competence. 2021-04-08T04:53:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: Research has measurable outputs in a way teaching doesn't 2021-04-08T04:53:44Z no-defun-allowed: (...to which I think Joe Armstrong nailed the apparent decision between performance and good design with "Make it work, then make it beautiful, then if you really, really have to, make it fast. 90 percent of the time, if you make it beautiful, it will already be fast. So really, just make it beautiful!") 2021-04-08T04:53:49Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: Not many people have it, and there is nobody to determine who does. 2021-04-08T04:54:11Z moon-child: imo 'make it fast' is a misnomer. There is no fast code. There is slow code, and if code is slow then it bears to make it not slow 2021-04-08T04:54:21Z lukego: beach: and I guess that there are different kinds of advice about how to write good code. one kind focuses on what the result should look like - clean interfaces, etc - and the other focuses on the process - should have been rewritten at least N times and be only 1/Mth its original line count 2021-04-08T04:55:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: lukego: I generally write the code you're talking about as drafts in the repl 2021-04-08T04:55:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: After I'm fairly satisfied with a solution, I copy it into a file and generalize 2021-04-08T04:56:07Z lukego: fiddlerwoaroof: I'm becoming more extreme over the years. I can easily spend several weeks writing draft code that never compiles. I wouldn't do that in the repl 2021-04-08T04:56:20Z no-defun-allowed: Or at least, I think my "fast code" is relatively nice, because it uses the right data structures and algorithms and whatever else that quiche-eater Nicholas Wirth probably said was good. 2021-04-08T04:57:13Z opcode quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-08T04:57:50Z lukego: maybe I'm progressing in my career towards drawing useless UML diagrams all day in some senior role at an IBM-alike. 2021-04-08T04:58:36Z booaa joined #lisp 2021-04-08T04:59:17Z marusich quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-08T05:00:45Z fe[nl]ix: lukego: something to live for 2021-04-08T05:00:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: lukego: my career started out with Delphi and, ever since that was taken away, I've found it really annoying to write GUI software 2021-04-08T05:01:16Z lukego: fe[nl]ix: die a hero, live a villain, etc, i guess :) 2021-04-08T05:01:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: And by "career", I'm starting when I was about 7 2021-04-08T05:02:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, I just find most of the modern development tools annoying 2021-04-08T05:02:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: CL in emacs, so far is the least bad 2021-04-08T05:04:56Z booaa quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 28.0.50) 2021-04-08T05:07:02Z booaa joined #lisp 2021-04-08T05:14:14Z moon-child: fiddlerwoaroof: have you seen fpc/lazarus? 2021-04-08T05:17:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: moon-child: yeah, I've even used it a bit here and there 2021-04-08T05:18:26Z sauvin joined #lisp 2021-04-08T05:18:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's annoying to setup on a Mac and relatively unstable (at least, the Cocoa port is), but the experience of using it still is so much better than the React stuff that pays the bills 2021-04-08T05:19:32Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-04-08T05:19:36Z lukego: I'm really impressed with GToolkit for Pharo Smalltalk as a development environment. I started off using it for this project before switching to lisp 2021-04-08T05:20:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's something I think about every once in a while: as an industry, I've begun to think our memories are so short that we just forget everything that happened more than five years ago or so 2021-04-08T05:20:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: lukego: yeah, I've always been interested in that ecosystem, but I've found it hard to get started 2021-04-08T05:22:17Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-04-08T05:22:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: Like, I'm working on a react native application and everyone's talking about how "X doesn't work for mobile apps because of how much harder it is to deploy mobile apps than websites", completely ignoring that X was practiced when shipping an update meant shipping CDs in boxes 2021-04-08T05:22:45Z lukego: I think that my memory is becoming more of a "high-pass" filter, seems to just ignore anything that happened _less_ than five years ago and assume it's a passing fad 2021-04-08T05:22:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: :) 2021-04-08T05:27:47Z trcm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-08T05:28:14Z technobean joined #lisp 2021-04-08T05:30:04Z no-defun-allowed: Most of the references in the book I sometimes write are from 2010-2019 or 1990-1999. Did people just not have ideas in 2000-2009? 2021-04-08T05:30:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: no-defun-allowed: what was the Web 2.0 era, right? 2021-04-08T05:31:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's all XML 2021-04-08T05:31:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: And Java applications glued together using XML 2021-04-08T05:31:29Z no-defun-allowed: Now that you mention it. 2021-04-08T05:31:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: XSLT and XPath get an honorable mention (both of which I actually secretly like) 2021-04-08T05:34:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's also notable for the ascendancy of Ruby on Rails and the rise of Agile 2021-04-08T05:38:36Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: for programming? in the early '00s "everyone" got laid off and left the industry because of the dot-com bust. 2021-04-08T05:39:19Z aeth: you can also look at some interesting stats like enrollments in university comp sci departments. 2021-04-08T05:39:40Z no-defun-allowed: aeth: Well, mostly programming. Though if I redraw the histogram with 5-year bars, I see that 2005-2009 was strangely quiet. 2021-04-08T05:40:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: The last time Haskell was a language with a specification and multiple viable implementations :0 2021-04-08T05:40:36Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: web 2.0 era? 2021-04-08T05:40:58Z no-defun-allowed: Appears like it, as O'Reilly popularised the term in 2004. 2021-04-08T05:41:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, V8/the JVM's tracing JIT dates to about then too 2021-04-08T05:41:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think 2021-04-08T05:42:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: I guess I'm wrong about the JVM's JIT, but V8 is then 2021-04-08T05:42:15Z no-defun-allowed: The 90s brought about Squeak, the end of Self, the Unix-Hater's Handbook and the second edition of SICP. 2021-04-08T05:42:36Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, the Self compiler people moved to Strongtalk and then the JVM. 2021-04-08T05:43:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: The 2000s were basically the years when Microsoft was at the height of its power, afaict 2021-04-08T05:44:15Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-04-08T05:44:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: The Unix vendors were basically irrelevant for most people, the Web was still being held back by IE6 2021-04-08T05:44:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: And smartphones weren't yet around, really 2021-04-08T05:44:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: (sorry, Blackberry users) 2021-04-08T05:48:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: lukego, you just showed up in a Google search: https://github.com/lukego/blog/issues/5 2021-04-08T05:48:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: (via a hackernews result for "JVM tracing JIT") 2021-04-08T05:56:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: lukego: I'm also curious why you're rewriting from gtoolkit to lisp 2021-04-08T05:59:47Z tophullyte quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2021-04-08T06:05:25Z msk joined #lisp 2021-04-08T06:05:47Z _paul0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-08T06:05:59Z paul0 joined #lisp 2021-04-08T06:10:02Z chipolux joined #lisp 2021-04-08T06:20:31Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-04-08T06:26:38Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-08T06:27:33Z silasfox joined #lisp 2021-04-08T06:28:00Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-04-08T06:29:13Z silasfox quit (Client Quit) 2021-04-08T06:30:04Z silasfox joined #lisp 2021-04-08T06:30:50Z Major_Biscuit joined #lisp 2021-04-08T06:39:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: Does anyone happen to have a VNC server written in CL? 2021-04-08T06:41:51Z gproto23 joined #lisp 2021-04-08T06:45:14Z chipolux quit (Quit: chipolux) 2021-04-08T06:47:40Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-04-08T06:47:41Z lukego: fiddlerwoaroof: the ultimate reason that I switched from gtoolkit to lisp is for the language. in Lisp I feel free to write basically pseudocode and gradually massage/rewrite it into something the compiler understands. in smalltalk I can't even Save code that doesn't have correct syntax, isn't organized into classes, doesn't adhere to the rules about inheritance and traits, etc. 2021-04-08T06:48:20Z lukego: but I've used gtoolkit a lot in a previous project and the big problem then was that they were constantly rewriting it and it was very difficult to build from source (which i spent weeks and weeks fighting and ultimately gave up on) 2021-04-08T06:51:29Z h4ck3r9696 joined #lisp 2021-04-08T06:52:06Z lukego: but I think that I was unlucky with timing -- I wrote an application based on the "old gtoolkit" that they did at a university and then they immediately formed a company to develop the "new gtoolkit" and there was an awkward period there where the old version wasn't supported anymore but the new version wasn't ready to use yet 2021-04-08T06:57:00Z rdd joined #lisp 2021-04-08T06:57:19Z sxmx joined #lisp 2021-04-08T06:57:21Z lukego: bringing this back to lisp -- it's actually a strength that a lot of stuff here is basically the same as it has always been. I don't spend my time trying to keep up with the ecosystem every month -- or even necessarily have to worry about what's changed in the past 10/20 years. 2021-04-08T06:59:04Z lukego: maybe I'm getting old but "stability" is a feature to me these days and pretty high on my priority list. I'm glad that Lispers don't "burn the diskpacks" every five years. 2021-04-08T07:01:54Z booaa quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 28.0.50)) 2021-04-08T07:02:29Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-04-08T07:02:41Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-08T07:06:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I really grew to appreciate that, both in CL and in working with Clojure 2021-04-08T07:07:11Z lukego: random follow up of past discussion: I'm super happy with the 1AM unit test framework. it's about 80 lines of code and just the right level of minimalism for me. 2021-04-08T07:15:09Z l1x joined #lisp 2021-04-08T07:16:24Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-08T07:17:47Z hjudt joined #lisp 2021-04-08T07:20:43Z pve joined #lisp 2021-04-08T07:21:05Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-08T07:22:31Z rjcks joined #lisp 2021-04-08T07:29:26Z fourier joined #lisp 2021-04-08T07:31:17Z fourier quit (Changing host) 2021-04-08T07:31:17Z fourier joined #lisp 2021-04-08T07:31:39Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-04-08T07:37:43Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-08T07:43:33Z zooey quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-08T07:44:33Z zooey joined #lisp 2021-04-08T07:49:02Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-08T07:53:12Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-08T08:06:46Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-04-08T08:08:32Z technobean quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-08T08:08:49Z technobean joined #lisp 2021-04-08T08:09:09Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-08T08:09:21Z gitgood quit (Quit: Probably away to do something really awesome) 2021-04-08T08:11:32Z t99 joined #lisp 2021-04-08T08:12:07Z surabax joined #lisp 2021-04-08T08:16:11Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-04-08T08:18:38Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-08T08:23:15Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2021-04-08T08:30:16Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-04-08T08:30:21Z L0u1sChu joined #lisp 2021-04-08T08:36:22Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-08T08:42:13Z andreyorst[m] joined #lisp 2021-04-08T08:55:11Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-08T08:56:29Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2021-04-08T08:58:16Z lotuseater joined #lisp 2021-04-08T09:05:06Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-04-08T09:08:53Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-08T09:16:21Z gproto23 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-08T09:17:12Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-04-08T09:17:20Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-04-08T09:18:19Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-08T09:19:33Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-08T09:21:19Z gproto23 joined #lisp 2021-04-08T09:22:27Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2021-04-08T09:23:09Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-08T09:23:54Z seok joined #lisp 2021-04-08T09:27:51Z asarch: If I had: '(:|beer| 10 :|pizza| 4 :|tacos| 8) how could I converted to: (:beer 10 :pizza 4 :tacos 8)? 2021-04-08T09:28:26Z asarch: s/to: (:beer 10 :pizza 4 :tacos 8)/to: '(:beer 10 :pizza 4 :tacos 8)/ 2021-04-08T09:28:55Z no-defun-allowed: Dare I ask why you have the former? 2021-04-08T09:28:55Z g_SG joined #lisp 2021-04-08T09:29:11Z asarch: It is a query result 2021-04-08T09:29:50Z asarch: If that would be stored in food, doing a (getf food :|pizza|) would gives me only the value 2021-04-08T09:29:55Z beach: asarch: Someone must have turned the string "beer" into a symbol? 2021-04-08T09:30:07Z asarch: Is there any way to modify the key? 2021-04-08T09:30:38Z no-defun-allowed: What did you use to generate that list? I am guessing some parser took every key and did (intern '#:keyword) 2021-04-08T09:30:48Z beach: asarch: I think we are saying, don't create a symbol with lower-case letters in the first place. 2021-04-08T09:31:29Z johannes_ joined #lisp 2021-04-08T09:31:34Z johannes_ is now known as kenran 2021-04-08T09:31:52Z asarch: That's the result of a query with CL-DBI: (dbi:fetch-all (dbi:execute (dbi:prepare *connection* "SELECT * FROM somewhere WHERE flag = ? OR updated_at > ?") (list 0 "2011-11-01"))) 2021-04-08T09:32:03Z no-defun-allowed: Does cl-json do that? No, that generates alists and converts to upper kebab-case by default -- oh okay. 2021-04-08T09:32:13Z White_Flame: I would mapcar, and if a term is keywordp, re-intern it under *package* 2021-04-08T09:32:31Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-04-08T09:32:41Z andreyorst[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-08T09:32:55Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-04-08T09:33:03Z White_Flame: or probably easier but less robust would be (read-from-string (symbol-name key)) 2021-04-08T09:33:21Z White_Flame: only if you are certain of the keywords being safe syntax 2021-04-08T09:33:22Z andreyorst[m] joined #lisp 2021-04-08T09:33:47Z beach: asarch: Next question: Why do you want to convert those symbols to upper case? 2021-04-08T09:33:52Z no-defun-allowed: An interesting result format. (n.b. I think you should stash the prepared statement somewhere, if it hasn't been folded in for the example.) 2021-04-08T09:33:53Z beach: Aren't they fine as they are? 2021-04-08T09:34:17Z White_Flame: oh wait, you did want the result still as keywords 2021-04-08T09:34:37Z White_Flame: but yeah, I agree with beach. The canonical names are :|beer| etc, use that syntax 2021-04-08T09:35:05Z White_Flame: if the names all of a sudden have other cases, for some reason, or you need to re-assert into the database that those came from, you need to use the same key 2021-04-08T09:35:46Z asarch: Well, I have some functions that retrieve data a la (getf food :pizza) 2021-04-08T09:35:46Z klltkr joined #lisp 2021-04-08T09:36:23Z lawt quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-08T09:37:49Z beach: Don't do that then. Do (getf food :|pizza| instead. 2021-04-08T09:38:22Z beach: asarch: Why would you use a key with GETF that is not one that is in your list? 2021-04-08T09:38:53Z asarch: Here in México Dell is selling this https://pasteboard.co/JVwoB5Y.jpg at the ridiculous prices of ~$1,000 USD. It would be great instead of a "normal" laptop, right? 2021-04-08T09:39:14Z asarch: Because there are two ways of doing the queries 2021-04-08T09:39:37Z asarch: The A method and the B method. This, the :|pizza| is the result of the B method 2021-04-08T09:40:10Z asarch: I usually do with the A method, that's why I have all these functions getting data from the list with (getf food :pizza) 2021-04-08T09:40:43Z White_Flame: then fix the queries to always return the same form of the keys 2021-04-08T09:41:07Z asarch: That's exactly what I am trying to do 2021-04-08T09:41:21Z asarch: That is the point of my question 2021-04-08T09:42:11Z White_Flame: (intern (string-upcase :|foo|) (symbol-package :keyword)) => :FOO 2021-04-08T09:42:45Z asarch: WOW!!! 2021-04-08T09:43:03Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-08T09:44:27Z asarch: One last question: how do you get automatically the keys (:|beer| 10 :|pizza| 4 :|tacos| 8)? 2021-04-08T09:44:41Z White_Flame: or from alexandria, (make-keyword (string-upcase :|foo|)) => :FOO 2021-04-08T09:44:53Z White_Flame: I'd just mapcar it 2021-04-08T09:45:11Z White_Flame: if you have any values that need the same treatment 2021-04-08T09:45:23Z White_Flame: else, LOOP can handle 2 elements at a time pretty easily 2021-04-08T09:45:52Z White_Flame: there's also doplist in alexandria, where you can PUSH your own result list 2021-04-08T09:47:35Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-08T09:48:05Z jacks2 joined #lisp 2021-04-08T09:48:52Z silasfox: (defun upcase-keyword (x) 2021-04-08T09:48:53Z silasfox: (if (keywordp x) 2021-04-08T09:48:53Z silasfox: (intern (string-upcase x) (symbol-package :keyword)) 2021-04-08T09:48:54Z silasfox: x)) 2021-04-08T09:49:17Z silasfox: (mapcar #'upcase-keyword '(:|beer| 10 :|pizza| 4 :|tacos| 8)) => (:beer 10 :pizza 4 :tacos 8) 2021-04-08T09:49:27Z Krystof quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-08T09:50:01Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-04-08T09:50:39Z beach: silasfox: Please use a paste site for code longer than a single line. 2021-04-08T09:51:06Z silasfox: OK, I'll do so in the future. 2021-04-08T09:51:51Z asarch: Yeah, I was this close to the result :-P 2021-04-08T09:51:53Z beach: Also, it's not so great to apply a function named UPCASE-KEYWORD to numbers. 2021-04-08T09:52:20Z beach: silasfox: In particular, if the value is a keyword, that should perhaps not be altered. 2021-04-08T09:53:06Z g_SG quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-08T09:53:21Z asarch: Nice, isn't it? 2021-04-08T09:54:09Z beach: Furthermore, INTERN takes a "package designator", so you can say (intern ... "KEYWORD") 2021-04-08T09:54:31Z White_Flame: UPCASE-IF-KEYWORD maybe 2021-04-08T09:54:37Z beach: And (symbol-package :keyword) is a bit strange anyway. 2021-04-08T09:54:47Z asarch: You should write an æncyclopedia about this snippets 2021-04-08T09:54:54Z White_Flame: yeah, i always forget about package designators and always just grab a package quickly 2021-04-08T09:55:11Z beach: (find-package "KEYWORD") would be better. 2021-04-08T09:56:21Z beach now fears getting the "but it works" treatment. 2021-04-08T09:56:40Z silasfox: beach: Not at all, thanks for teaching me something. 2021-04-08T09:56:50Z beach: Pleasure. 2021-04-08T09:57:37Z L0u1sChu quit (Quit: My MacBook Air has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-04-08T09:59:11Z andreyorst[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-08T10:00:07Z vegansbane6963 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-04-08T10:00:49Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-04-08T10:00:51Z L0u1sChu joined #lisp 2021-04-08T10:01:07Z White_Flame: beach: actually, I think it started off as more a performance thing. (find-package ...) is a function call but (symbol-package ..) just reads a slot from a read-time-interned symbol ;) 2021-04-08T10:01:13Z andreyorst[m] joined #lisp 2021-04-08T10:01:29Z White_Flame: (as in, nitpicky cycles that don't really matter but dangit this is more direct :) ) 2021-04-08T10:05:39Z L0u1sChu quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2021-04-08T10:05:58Z L0u1sChu joined #lisp 2021-04-08T10:10:44Z beach: In that case, I would do #.(find-package "KEYWORD"). 2021-04-08T10:11:14Z beach: Or (load-time-value (find-package "KEYWORD")) 2021-04-08T10:12:48Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-08T10:13:49Z beach: White_Flame, on the other hand, SYMBOL-PACKAGE may very well be a generic function in some implementations, and everyone knows how slow a call to a generic function can be. :) 2021-04-08T10:16:28Z asarch: Yeah! It worked! La vie in rose gentlemen! Cheers! o/ 2021-04-08T10:17:06Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-08T10:19:35Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-04-08T10:19:37Z silasfox63 joined #lisp 2021-04-08T10:19:53Z silasfox quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-08T10:20:13Z silasfox63 is now known as silasfox 2021-04-08T10:22:08Z aartaka quit (Quit: Quit) 2021-04-08T10:22:22Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-04-08T10:25:04Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2021-04-08T10:26:16Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-08T10:28:40Z andreyorst[m] quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-08T10:29:16Z asarch: Thank you guys 2021-04-08T10:29:24Z asarch: Thank you very much :-) 2021-04-08T10:29:29Z asarch: Have a nice day 2021-04-08T10:29:34Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-08T10:30:32Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2021-04-08T11:01:58Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-08T11:02:11Z Krystof: wow. 2021-04-08T11:02:27Z Krystof: Are you round-tripping to the server for each input event? 2021-04-08T11:02:40Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-08T11:02:52Z luckless_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-08T11:02:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: That's a cool demo, the issue I always have is the "window in window" paradigm there always feels a bit odd 2021-04-08T11:03:06Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-08T11:03:32Z luckless_ joined #lisp 2021-04-08T11:03:44Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-08T11:03:44Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-08T11:03:59Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-08T11:03:59Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-08T11:04:15Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-08T11:04:17Z silasfox quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-08T11:04:43Z silasfox joined #lisp 2021-04-08T11:05:23Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-08T11:05:23Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-08T11:05:34Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-08T11:06:58Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-08T11:06:59Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-08T11:07:09Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-08T11:08:12Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-04-08T11:08:14Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-08T11:09:09Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-08T11:09:46Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-08T11:10:16Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-04-08T11:10:27Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-08T11:11:14Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-08T11:12:38Z igemnace quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-08T11:12:38Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-08T11:12:59Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-04-08T11:13:00Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-08T11:14:30Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-08T11:15:07Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-08T11:15:47Z scymtym: fiddlerwoaroof: yes, there is a websocket connection that sends input events from the javascript client to the server and sends display commands from the server to the javascript client 2021-04-08T11:16:17Z scymtym: Krystof: sorry, that was meant for you 2021-04-08T11:16:37Z scymtym: fiddlerwoaroof: i agree. that's why i brought up the issue 2021-04-08T11:18:52Z silasfox quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-04-08T11:21:19Z silasfox joined #lisp 2021-04-08T11:24:46Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Apparently that is possible. 2021-04-08T12:05:36Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-08T12:05:56Z em-bee quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-08T12:06:44Z eMBee joined #lisp 2021-04-08T12:08:16Z curtosis is now known as curtosis[away] 2021-04-08T12:08:19Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-04-08T12:09:55Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2021-04-08T12:09:59Z heisig joined #lisp 2021-04-08T12:15:25Z drl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-08T12:19:21Z curtosis[away] quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2021-04-08T13:14:35Z splittist: jmercouris: as sm2n says, this is sort of the opposite of what I understand an expert system is 2021-04-08T13:14:41Z sm2n: I don't think using automated nlp is a good idea... it suffers from similar issues as the misinformation generating processes 2021-04-08T13:14:55Z jmercouris: sm2n: how would you tackle this problem? 2021-04-08T13:16:15Z sm2n: I think the general idea is decent though, say you have a document open, maybe you could have a "pane" or something that displays a formalized logical inference tree, in natural deduction form or something 2021-04-08T13:16:16Z gproto23 joined #lisp 2021-04-08T13:16:34Z sm2n: the reader could fill it out as they read 2021-04-08T13:16:49Z jmercouris: what is a formalized logical inference tree? 2021-04-08T13:17:09Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-08T13:17:24Z sm2n: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_deduction , though you don't need the fancy deduction 2021-04-08T13:18:02Z monaliza quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-08T13:18:11Z sm2n: if it's sufficiently formalized, you can even pass it to a proof assistant like Z3 2021-04-08T13:18:30Z sm2n: and generate some logical consequences 2021-04-08T13:18:34Z jmercouris: I see what you mean 2021-04-08T13:18:45Z sm2n: *fancy notation, whoops 2021-04-08T13:18:50Z jmercouris: I don't think someone susceptible to 'fake news' will have the rigor to complete such an exercise 2021-04-08T13:18:59Z jmercouris: I could very well be wrong, but I have a strong intuition 2021-04-08T13:19:05Z sm2n: yeah, that is the issue 2021-04-08T13:19:06Z jmercouris: that there is an inverse relationship with intelligence... 2021-04-08T13:19:08Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-04-08T13:19:12Z splittist: I'm not seeing how computers help here. Take this text: "The LaTeX sources were converted to html using the latex2html program. We fixed many of the glitches by hand, but may have missed some. When in doubt, check your copy of the original paperbound version." What is supposed to happen when I'm browsing that? 2021-04-08T13:19:45Z jmercouris: LaTeX sources were converted to html using the latex2html -> latex2html converts latex to html 2021-04-08T13:20:03Z jmercouris: that's probably about all it could realistically extract 2021-04-08T13:20:18Z jeosol joined #lisp 2021-04-08T13:20:22Z monaliza joined #lisp 2021-04-08T13:20:55Z jmercouris: there are only two assertions in the above text 2021-04-08T13:21:02Z _death: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2379#2379 2021-04-08T13:21:02Z jmercouris: well, maybe three 2021-04-08T13:21:22Z sm2n: if you are going to try nlp, I would make it optional 2021-04-08T13:21:41Z jmercouris: _death: :-D always good for a laugh 2021-04-08T13:21:44Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-04-08T13:21:50Z splittist: Hmm. If I'm reading an article that says "All men are mortal. Socrates is a man. Therefore global warming is [insert conclusion here]" a big red cross appears saying "incorrect inference"? 2021-04-08T13:21:50Z jmercouris: sm2n: of course, all the NLP we have is already optional 2021-04-08T13:21:51Z sm2n: use some nlp feature extraction algorithm to initially populate a deduction tree 2021-04-08T13:22:03Z sm2n: it can then be manually tweaked etc 2021-04-08T13:22:04Z jmercouris: splittist: I should hope so! 2021-04-08T13:22:06Z sm2n: no black boxes 2021-04-08T13:22:15Z jmercouris: no black boxes indeed... 2021-04-08T13:23:26Z sm2n: at least, that is my take, error prone automated processes should augment human reasoning, not replace it 2021-04-08T13:23:38Z jmercouris: absolutely, that's why I have this article I wrote 2021-04-08T13:23:55Z jmercouris: https://nyxt.atlas.engineer/article/dbscan.org 2021-04-08T13:24:07Z jmercouris: our clustering for buffers in the buffer list view is OPTIONAL! 2021-04-08T13:24:12Z jmercouris: and completely configurable/understandable 2021-04-08T13:24:47Z xaotuk joined #lisp 2021-04-08T13:25:00Z sm2n: nice 2021-04-08T13:26:25Z t99 quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-04-08T13:27:31Z jmercouris: "Computationally augmented browsing" 2021-04-08T13:31:13Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-08T13:32:18Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-08T13:33:17Z jackdaniel: minion: spec with-snake-oil macro 2021-04-08T13:34:05Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: what are you saying? 2021-04-08T13:35:09Z jackdaniel: I am saying that I see plenty of buzzwords that are not ontopic on this channel and could be categorized as a deceptive marketing 2021-04-08T13:36:19Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2021-04-08T13:36:38Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-08T13:38:33Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: are you saying that I am engaging in deceptive marketing? 2021-04-08T13:40:10Z jackdaniel: no, I am saying that "I see plenty of buzzwords that are not ontopic on this channel and could be categorized as a deceptive marketing"; I'll put an emphasis on the offtopic aspect of that statement 2021-04-08T13:43:22Z hhdave_ joined #lisp 2021-04-08T13:43:35Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-08T13:43:35Z hhdave_ is now known as hhdave 2021-04-08T13:51:15Z galex-713 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-08T13:51:59Z xaotuk quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-08T13:54:52Z e[m]2 joined #lisp 2021-04-08T13:56:35Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-08T14:01:31Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2021-04-08T14:58:46Z mseddon quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-04-08T14:58:46Z alandipert quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-04-08T14:58:59Z booaa quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2021-04-08T14:59:09Z alandipert joined #lisp 2021-04-08T14:59:12Z mseddon1 joined #lisp 2021-04-08T15:00:18Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-08T15:00:52Z jmercouris: phoe: the implementation should know though right? 2021-04-08T15:01:00Z phoe: jmercouris: what do you mean, the implementation? 2021-04-08T15:01:16Z phoe: with &key, the order is absolutely unimportant unless you have duplicates 2021-04-08T15:01:26Z jmercouris: SBCL would know exactly the lambda list passed into a funcall 2021-04-08T15:01:29Z phoe: :foo 1 :bar 2 is the same as :bar 2 :foo 1 2021-04-08T15:01:40Z jmercouris: Sure, SBCL should know what I sent 2021-04-08T15:01:44Z phoe: jmercouris: this isn't really a SBCL issue 2021-04-08T15:02:00Z jmercouris: Wouldnt it be possible though? 2021-04-08T15:02:05Z phoe: every Lisp implementation does know exactly what you send, because it can make it available if you pass &rest 2021-04-08T15:02:22Z jmercouris: I’m not making much sense 2021-04-08T15:02:26Z jmercouris: Forget what I said lol 2021-04-08T15:02:31Z phoe: okay 2021-04-08T15:04:23Z g_SG joined #lisp 2021-04-08T15:05:53Z monaliza quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-08T15:06:35Z alandipert quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-04-08T15:06:36Z mseddon1 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-04-08T15:06:57Z alandipert joined #lisp 2021-04-08T15:07:01Z mseddon1 joined #lisp 2021-04-08T15:07:30Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-08T15:07:57Z monaliza joined #lisp 2021-04-08T15:08:17Z wsinatra quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-08T15:08:25Z Sheilong joined #lisp 2021-04-08T15:09:19Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-04-08T15:09:52Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-04-08T15:12:58Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-08T15:13:32Z g_SG quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-08T15:18:53Z krjli joined #lisp 2021-04-08T15:23:58Z monaliza quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-08T15:24:29Z xaotuk quit (Quit: xaotuk) 2021-04-08T15:26:20Z monaliza joined #lisp 2021-04-08T15:31:23Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-04-08T15:33:46Z silasfox quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-08T15:34:59Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-08T15:36:07Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-04-08T15:36:43Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2021-04-08T15:39:03Z VincentVega quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-08T15:39:27Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-08T15:40:51Z technobean quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-08T15:43:08Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-04-08T15:48:32Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-04-08T15:48:32Z Josh_2: Ello ello 2021-04-08T15:48:40Z phoe: heyyyy 2021-04-08T15:49:04Z v0|d joined #lisp 2021-04-08T15:59:09Z long4mud quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-04-08T15:59:45Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-08T16:03:03Z Josh_2: What crazy thing are we gonna talk about today? How about the performance of CL? jk jk 2021-04-08T16:04:26Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-04-08T16:09:42Z rjcks_ joined #lisp 2021-04-08T16:12:59Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-04-08T16:13:05Z rjcks quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-08T16:21:42Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-04-08T16:22:10Z technobean joined #lisp 2021-04-08T16:23:49Z hjudt joined #lisp 2021-04-08T16:25:22Z gitgood joined #lisp 2021-04-08T16:30:43Z bjorkintosh quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-04-08T16:31:14Z contrapunctus: Anyone here use redshank? It sounds quite cool but I've not heard much about it. 2021-04-08T16:33:07Z krjli quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-08T16:33:11Z contrapunctus: It's a bunch of commands for performing some common insertions and modifications in CL code. 2021-04-08T16:35:58Z hypercube joined #lisp 2021-04-08T16:37:33Z v0|d quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-08T16:43:47Z ck_: I have used it sometimes in the past, yes. Some functions more than others, mostly the moderately simple stuff like extract-defun 2021-04-08T16:44:17Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-08T16:44:43Z ck_: it didn't feel like a significant improvement over manually (par-)editing; maybe I didn't spend enough time with it 2021-04-08T16:47:37Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-04-08T16:49:11Z technobean quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-08T16:50:49Z tophullyte joined #lisp 2021-04-08T16:51:47Z attila_lendvai: is rpav of c2ffi fame around? 2021-04-08T16:51:49Z long4mud joined #lisp 2021-04-08T16:52:42Z mfiano: attila_lendvai: He stopped lisping a few years ago 2021-04-08T16:52:43Z mokulus joined #lisp 2021-04-08T16:53:03Z mfiano: You can find him in our gamedev channel, #bufferswap if you need him immediately though. 2021-04-08T16:53:18Z Xach: stopped? 2021-04-08T16:53:19Z attila_lendvai: mfiano, much appreciated, thanks! 2021-04-08T16:54:09Z attila_lendvai is trying to compile c2ffi on nixos 2021-04-08T16:56:43Z lottaquestions quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2021-04-08T16:56:46Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-04-08T16:56:58Z hypercube quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-04-08T16:57:02Z lottaquestions joined #lisp 2021-04-08T16:57:16Z hypercube joined #lisp 2021-04-08T16:57:59Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-08T17:00:07Z hypercube quit (Client Quit) 2021-04-08T17:00:25Z hypercube joined #lisp 2021-04-08T17:01:09Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-08T17:02:51Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-08T17:09:48Z josemanuel joined #lisp 2021-04-08T17:11:37Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-04-08T17:12:01Z mokulus quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-04-08T17:15:33Z Elzington joined #lisp 2021-04-08T17:15:54Z Josh_2: Shinmera: have you used Chirp recently? 2021-04-08T17:16:29Z Shinmera: I used it approximately a day ago to post a drawing. 2021-04-08T17:16:34Z Josh_2: Okay 2021-04-08T17:16:46Z Shinmera: Why does this matter? What is your actual question? 2021-04-08T17:17:17Z Josh_2: I'm getting an error trying to quickload it 2021-04-08T17:17:33Z Josh_2: "don't know how to REQUIRE sb-rotate-byte" 2021-04-08T17:17:46Z Josh_2: but it worked when I attempted to quickload in a fresh image 2021-04-08T17:18:08Z Shinmera: that's an ironclad issue. 2021-04-08T17:19:10Z Josh_2: I guess I will just redumping this image with chirp as a dependency, see if that works 2021-04-08T17:19:48Z Shinmera: whatever the case the issue is not with chirp. 2021-04-08T17:20:12Z Josh_2: Okay np 2021-04-08T17:20:16Z Josh_2: new image worked anyhow 2021-04-08T17:26:05Z jmercouris: I've noticed when loading my own code which depends on other libraries, slime compilation will report their warnings, any way to get rid of those? 2021-04-08T17:26:26Z jmercouris: I'm not interested in stuff like: Unknown location: redefinition: redefining CL-PREVALENCE:GET-ID in DEFGENERIC 2021-04-08T17:26:43Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-08T17:28:47Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-04-08T17:29:38Z shka_: jmercouris: yes, you can rebind the error stream 2021-04-08T17:30:33Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-04-08T17:30:49Z gproto023 joined #lisp 2021-04-08T17:30:59Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-04-08T17:31:05Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-08T17:31:47Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-08T17:32:33Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2021-04-08T17:32:40Z mmmattyx joined #lisp 2021-04-08T17:33:11Z gproto23 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-08T17:33:44Z Josh_2: Shinmera: when using (complete-authentication ) pin is supposed to be the url returned by initiate-authentication? 2021-04-08T17:34:13Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-04-08T17:34:28Z Shinmera: no, the pin you get from visiting that page. 2021-04-08T17:34:34Z Josh_2: well 2021-04-08T17:34:36Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-04-08T17:34:36Z Josh_2: that makese sense 2021-04-08T17:35:00Z Shinmera: it says that in the readme. 2021-04-08T17:36:23Z Josh_2: oh yeh :P 2021-04-08T17:37:27Z jmercouris: shka_: ? 2021-04-08T17:37:28Z Nilby: jmercouris: My advice is always wrong, so you definitely shouldn't do this: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2380#2380 2021-04-08T17:37:41Z jmercouris: Nilby: true true, you and me give wrong advice 2021-04-08T17:37:53Z jmercouris: we should be ashamed, really 2021-04-08T17:38:51Z jmercouris: lol, I like the macro name 2021-04-08T17:41:38Z Nilby: mini DTWT posse (*8 2021-04-08T17:45:01Z _death: you could also fix the warnings.. but that advice is the wrongest 2021-04-08T17:45:07Z gproto023 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-08T17:45:32Z amerlyq quit (Quit: amerlyq) 2021-04-08T17:45:40Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-04-08T17:46:06Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-04-08T17:47:37Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2021-04-08T17:49:57Z Nilby: (ql:system-apropos "") | wc -l ⇒ 4491 , so that might take a while. My systems have no unintentional warnings 2021-04-08T17:50:09Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-04-08T17:51:36Z Josh_2: Yay I tweeted using Chirp 2021-04-08T17:52:56Z _death: Nilby: hah! (length (ql:system-apropos-list "")) => 4726 2021-04-08T17:53:22Z Xach: (length (ql:provided-systems t)) 2021-04-08T17:54:03Z L0u1sChu quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2021-04-08T17:54:37Z Nilby: I think I have a lot of stuff I forgot about in my local-projects 2021-04-08T17:55:53Z Josh_2: Shinmera: do you have any example code showing how to upload an image? 2021-04-08T17:56:11Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-08T17:56:17Z seok quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-08T17:56:23Z shka_: jmercouris: sorry, was afk 2021-04-08T17:56:47Z shka_: jmercouris: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node183.html 2021-04-08T17:57:03Z shka_: notice *error-output* 2021-04-08T17:57:38Z shka_: so you can https://github.com/sirherrbatka/vellum/blob/1315f04382547f938f4569f2b99ba038e93f75b6/run-tests.lisp#L11 2021-04-08T17:57:55Z shka_: however, this will muffle ALL conditions 2021-04-08T17:58:03Z shka_: or rather: warnings 2021-04-08T17:58:10Z shka_: which is perhaps not exactly what you want 2021-04-08T17:58:10Z jmercouris: right, I'm only interested in other libraries 2021-04-08T17:58:13Z jmercouris: it's OK 2021-04-08T17:58:16Z jmercouris: I will just have to live with it for now 2021-04-08T18:01:06Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-08T18:05:26Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-08T18:05:51Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-04-08T18:07:53Z hypercube quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-08T18:08:40Z Josh_2: yay I did it! 2021-04-08T18:09:24Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-04-08T18:12:51Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-04-08T18:14:54Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-08T18:17:55Z Nilby: I still have a CL twitter client with a TUI back from when you had to send your password in cleartext over http, but then I never looked a twitter again. 2021-04-08T18:20:59Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-04-08T18:22:08Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-04-08T18:22:18Z Josh_2: Probably for the best 2021-04-08T18:22:38Z sauvin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-08T18:22:56Z Nilby: I'm simultaneously atounded at how hard it is now, and by Shinmera's productivity. 2021-04-08T18:23:17Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-08T18:23:36Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-08T18:25:54Z rjcks_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-04-08T18:26:30Z rjcks joined #lisp 2021-04-08T18:27:47Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-08T18:28:36Z Shinmera: Aw, thanks 2021-04-08T18:28:36Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-08T18:28:50Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-08T18:30:58Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-08T18:31:07Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-08T18:31:33Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-08T18:31:47Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-08T18:31:47Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-08T18:32:07Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-08T18:36:15Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-04-08T18:36:15Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 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2021-04-08T19:02:25Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-04-08T19:02:28Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-04-08T19:02:30Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-04-08T19:02:43Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2021-04-08T19:03:08Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-08T19:03:08Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-08T19:03:20Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-08T19:04:18Z Josh_2: I will just use a temp file 2021-04-08T19:05:22Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2021-04-08T19:07:47Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-08T19:08:17Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-04-08T19:08:31Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-08T19:13:27Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-04-08T19:14:33Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-04-08T19:14:41Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-08T19:14:43Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-08T19:14:43Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-08T19:14:58Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-08T19:16:03Z villanella joined #lisp 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Although rather suspiciously, it said "1 dist to check" 2021-04-08T20:21:15Z phoe: (ql-dist:dist "quicklisp") 2021-04-08T20:21:18Z phoe: what does this return? 2021-04-08T20:21:40Z phoe: and asdf:*central-registry* - what is the value of this? 2021-04-08T20:21:43Z contrapunctus: phoe: # 2021-04-08T20:21:49Z Bike: "1 dist to check" is what it usually says. 2021-04-08T20:21:57Z phoe: so the dist is there, okay 2021-04-08T20:22:15Z phoe: can ASDF find quicklisp systems though? 2021-04-08T20:22:37Z contrapunctus: phoe: asdf:*central-registry* => (#P"/home/anon/quicklisp/quicklisp/") 2021-04-08T20:23:12Z Shinmera: Josh_2: oAuth tokens don't expire unless they're manually revoked. You have to actually save the info though. 2021-04-08T20:23:13Z phoe: huh 2021-04-08T20:23:17Z phoe: so (asdf:find-system :alexandria) should find the system 2021-04-08T20:23:49Z mfiano: First check (ql:where-is-system :alexandria) to see if Quicklisp even has it downloaded 2021-04-08T20:24:03Z samebchase-6 joined #lisp 2021-04-08T20:24:09Z contrapunctus: phoe: Component "alexandria" not found 2021-04-08T20:24:46Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-08T20:24:48Z Bike: have you done anything weird lately? deleted systems.txt or something? 2021-04-08T20:25:03Z kingcons_ joined #lisp 2021-04-08T20:25:08Z contrapunctus: mfiano: nil 🤔 but I have a /home/anon/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/archives/alexandria-20200925-git.tgz 2021-04-08T20:25:37Z contrapunctus: Bike: upgraded from Debian Stable to Testing, if that's weird 🙂 2021-04-08T20:25:42Z dvdmuckle_ joined #lisp 2021-04-08T20:26:09Z Bike: do you have cl-asdf or anything installed? maybe your global asdf configuration is something odd now 2021-04-08T20:26:10Z mfiano: but do you have a quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/alexandria-20200925-git/ 2021-04-08T20:26:24Z d4ryus1 joined #lisp 2021-04-08T20:26:27Z phoe: right, do you have any cl-* packages installed from apt? 2021-04-08T20:26:29Z MightyJoe joined #lisp 2021-04-08T20:26:29Z vaporatorius quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-08T20:26:52Z kingcons quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-08T20:26:52Z jdz quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-08T20:26:52Z Feldman quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-08T20:26:53Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-08T20:26:53Z dvdmuckle quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-08T20:26:53Z samebchase quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-08T20:26:53Z natter quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-08T20:26:53Z cyraxjoe quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-08T20:26:53Z samebchase- quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-08T20:26:53Z dvdmuckle_ is now known as dvdmuckle 2021-04-08T20:27:15Z marusich joined #lisp 2021-04-08T20:27:20Z contrapunctus: Oh. I did install cl-asdf, because before that, SBCL was not seeing ASDF 🤔 2021-04-08T20:27:31Z phoe: SBCL should have ASDF bundled 2021-04-08T20:27:44Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2021-04-08T20:27:44Z vaporatorius quit (Changing host) 2021-04-08T20:27:44Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2021-04-08T20:27:46Z contrapunctus: My thoughts exactly 🙂 2021-04-08T20:27:47Z phoe: and quicklisp should load it automatically via #+sbcl (require :asdf) 2021-04-08T20:27:59Z samebchase joined #lisp 2021-04-08T20:28:03Z phoe: and if for some reason it isn't available, quicklisp has its own fallback asdf that it uses for such situations 2021-04-08T20:28:16Z phoe: but this should never happen because SBCL has its ASDF bundled, like, in general 2021-04-08T20:28:52Z jdz joined #lisp 2021-04-08T20:30:04Z contrapunctus: Removed cl-asdf 2021-04-08T20:30:29Z phoe: remove the fasl cache, restart, let's see if this works better 2021-04-08T20:31:11Z contrapunctus: ASDF is being detected now, but the Quicklisp issue persists 2021-04-08T20:31:29Z phoe: does it still not see alexandria? 2021-04-08T20:32:09Z contrapunctus: phoe: Where's the FASL cache? O.o Did restart, it does not. 2021-04-08T20:32:26Z phoe: contrapunctus: any other cl-foo packages on your system? 2021-04-08T20:32:39Z phoe: contrapunctus: ~/.cache/common-lisp/ 2021-04-08T20:32:40Z mfiano: Normally $XDG_CACHE_HOME/common-lisp/ 2021-04-08T20:32:57Z contrapunctus: phoe: cl-quiclisp :o 2021-04-08T20:32:59Z phoe: listen to mfiano, he is wise in the ways of the XDG 2021-04-08T20:33:01Z phoe: contrapunctus: oh shit 2021-04-08T20:33:05Z phoe: well, remove that too! 2021-04-08T20:33:09Z contrapunctus: * cl-quicklisp 2021-04-08T20:33:11Z mfiano: Well, (typep *debian-testing* '(and still-older-than-crap unstable) ; => T 2021-04-08T20:33:23Z phoe: mfiano: likely not a testing issue 2021-04-08T20:34:17Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-08T20:35:59Z contrapunctus: phoe: removed cl-quicklisp, deleted the cache, restarted Emacs, still the same Quicklisp issue x-P 2021-04-08T20:36:25Z mfiano: I assume the stacktrace doesn't have any meaningful locals? 2021-04-08T20:36:48Z phoe: well, hmmmm 2021-04-08T20:37:12Z phoe: do you have the alexandria asd file anywhere in ~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/? 2021-04-08T20:37:30Z contrapunctus: mfiano: http://ix.io/2VqF 2021-04-08T20:37:32Z mfiano: Yes I asked that 2021-04-08T20:37:41Z phoe: yes, but I did not see the answer 2021-04-08T20:37:45Z mfiano: No expanded frames 2021-04-08T20:38:11Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-08T20:38:18Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-08T20:38:24Z contrapunctus: phoe: there's a /home/anon/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/alexandria-20200925-git/alexandria.asd 2021-04-08T20:39:11Z contrapunctus: Maybe I can nuke ~/quicklisp and reinstall? 🤔 2021-04-08T20:39:14Z phoe: so for whatever reason ASDF does not see this 2021-04-08T20:39:20Z phoe: contrapunctus: I think you could try 2021-04-08T20:39:28Z wsinatra quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-04-08T20:39:33Z phoe: back your local projects up, nuke, reinstall from quicklisp.org 2021-04-08T20:47:27Z contrapunctus: Ah, finally \o/ 2021-04-08T20:47:46Z contrapunctus: Thanks everyone ^_^ 2021-04-08T20:59:46Z natter joined #lisp 2021-04-08T21:07:15Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-08T21:08:44Z judson_ joined #lisp 2021-04-08T21:10:39Z nckx quit (Quit: Updating my Guix System — https://guix.gnu.org) 2021-04-08T21:12:20Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-08T21:13:46Z monaliza quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-08T21:15:12Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-04-08T21:15:42Z monaliza joined #lisp 2021-04-08T21:16:58Z pve quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-04-08T21:17:53Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-08T21:19:49Z h4ck3r9696 left #lisp 2021-04-08T21:22:34Z nckx joined #lisp 2021-04-08T21:26:22Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-08T21:30:41Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-08T21:32:43Z akoana joined #lisp 2021-04-08T21:33:12Z m00natic joined #lisp 2021-04-08T21:38:10Z ech quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-04-08T21:39:15Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-08T21:43:19Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-04-08T21:46:24Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-08T21:47:29Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-04-08T21:48:26Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-04-08T21:51:05Z curtosis joined #lisp 2021-04-08T21:54:12Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-04-08T21:54:13Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-08T21:55:48Z lawt joined #lisp 2021-04-08T21:58:23Z ech joined #lisp 2021-04-08T21:58:32Z sxmx quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-04-08T21:59:14Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-08T21:59:24Z seabass[m] left #lisp 2021-04-08T21:59:33Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-08T21:59:47Z torbo joined #lisp 2021-04-08T22:00:45Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-04-08T22:01:39Z monaliza quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-08T22:02:54Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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'6)) 2021-04-09T03:40:04Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-04-09T03:40:44Z beach: Those are amusing. 2021-04-09T03:41:09Z beach: Now try to get Emacs to recognize the role of every element of it. 2021-04-09T03:41:21Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2021-04-09T03:41:37Z beach: You should be able to write (let ('5)...) 2021-04-09T03:42:31Z moon-child: ha 2021-04-09T03:42:44Z moon-child: how about this one: (defun f (&key '5) quote) 2021-04-09T03:42:45Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-04-09T03:42:47Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-09T03:43:22Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-04-09T03:44:28Z beach: Using #' is fun too, since FUNCTION can be used as a lexical variable as well. 2021-04-09T03:44:53Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-04-09T03:46:16Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-09T03:47:02Z beach: (let ('5) (let (#'quote) function)) for instance. :) 2021-04-09T03:48:04Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-04-09T03:51:29Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-04-09T03:55:53Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-09T03:58:43Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-09T04:09:50Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-04-09T04:10:55Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-04-09T04:15:45Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-04-09T04:16:12Z torbo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-09T04:16:43Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-04-09T04:17:15Z Spawns_Carpeting quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in) 2021-04-09T04:19:00Z Spawns_Carpeting joined #lisp 2021-04-09T04:19:16Z curtosis[away] joined #lisp 2021-04-09T04:19:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: (let ((quote 5)) (+ . '6)) is even valid emacs-lisp 2021-04-09T04:21:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: Both of them are, in fact 2021-04-09T04:21:43Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-04-09T04:22:30Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-04-09T04:22:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: (let ('5) (let (#'quote) (cons . #'quote))) 2021-04-09T04:22:45Z beach: I guess in the spirit of the first example, I should have written (let ('5) (let (#'quote) (+ . #'6))) 2021-04-09T04:22:55Z beach: Yes, stuff like that. 2021-04-09T04:24:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: (let*('5 #'quote)(+ . #'quote)) 2021-04-09T04:25:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: This is how I'm going to write all my code from now on 2021-04-09T04:25:19Z beach: Heh. 2021-04-09T04:25:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: save characters 2021-04-09T04:25:47Z no-defun-allowed: SLIME would print the lambda list of a mapping function I wrote as #'SEQUENCE. 2021-04-09T04:32:15Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-04-09T04:33:08Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-04-09T04:33:56Z curtosis[away] quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. 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When I said "Emacs" I meant "Emacs + SLIME". 2021-04-09T05:01:22Z beach: Sorry about that. 2021-04-09T05:07:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, the result there is from the implementation's printer, right? 2021-04-09T05:08:17Z beach: That could be. 2021-04-09T05:08:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: (princ-to-string '(function foo)) #| => "#'FOO" |# 2021-04-09T05:08:58Z beach: Yes, I see. 2021-04-09T05:09:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's fundamentally ambiguous whether the intention here is to print code or a list, as far as I can see 2021-04-09T05:09:19Z beach: If you use the printer for everything, sure. 2021-04-09T05:09:41Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-04-09T05:10:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I htink you need something like presentation types 2021-04-09T05:10:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: Or the first argument to MAP 2021-04-09T05:10:19Z beach: One could, for example, show the characters in the source code that defined the item to be printed. 2021-04-09T05:10:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: Kent Pitman calls it something like "intentional types" 2021-04-09T05:10:35Z beach: Then you would get the same representation as the programmer wanted when the code was written. 2021-04-09T05:11:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, that doesn't help when you're formatting the output of MACROEXPAND-1, though 2021-04-09T05:12:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's the same problem as here: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/EQUAL.html 2021-04-09T05:12:13Z beach: True, but that use case I am willing to bet is not as frequent. 2021-04-09T05:12:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm not sure 2021-04-09T05:12:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: I use tools like emacs' macrostep expander quite a bit when I'm trying to figure out what a macro does 2021-04-09T05:13:00Z beach: Perhaps I am generalizing too much, but I almost never look at the result of a macro expansion. 2021-04-09T05:13:10Z skapate quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-09T05:13:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I suspect this is a workflow difference 2021-04-09T05:13:48Z beach: I see macros the say I see function, i.e., as abstractions. Only when I write the macro itself would I be interested in how it expands. 2021-04-09T05:14:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: When I decide that a macro was a bad idea, I usually MACROEXPAND-1 and replace the source with the expansion 2021-04-09T05:15:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: then fix it 2021-04-09T05:15:39Z beach: This is one reason why I made a rule that SICL macros should do a lot of syntax checking, so that conditions would be shown in terms of the macro call, rather than in terms of its expansion. 2021-04-09T05:18:04Z mrchampion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-09T05:20:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think if you continue down that route, you end up writing macros that expand to CLOS objects 2021-04-09T05:23:01Z beach: Not sure what you mean by "CLOS object", but if you mean "standard object" then that would be some very useless macros, since those are self-evaluating. 2021-04-09T05:23:38Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-09T05:24:04Z beach: ... unless you implementation uses standard objects for conses and symbols, of course. 2021-04-09T05:27:19Z sm2n: beach, correct me if I'm wrong, but that kind of syntax checking doesn't compose too well 2021-04-09T05:27:45Z beach: sm2n: Can you elaborate on that? 2021-04-09T05:27:48Z sm2n: i.e if I have a macro that expands into a macro, and the second macro has malformed syntax, the thrown error won't be in terms of the code I wrote 2021-04-09T05:28:16Z contrapunctus: moon-child: `(let ((quote 5)) (+ . '6))` dafuq :o explain? 2021-04-09T05:28:39Z sm2n: contrapunctus, '6 is expanded by the reader to (quote 6) 2021-04-09T05:29:13Z sm2n: and (+ . (quote 6) is exactly (+ quote 6), which has quote bound lexically to 5 by the let 2021-04-09T05:29:18Z sm2n: so it evaluates to 11 2021-04-09T05:29:25Z beach: sm2n: Well, if the macro is meant to be used as an abstraction, it is usually clear what the different arguments stand for, so the syntax of those can then be checked. Perhaps not fully, but I am guessing a lot better than what is typically done. 2021-04-09T05:29:35Z contrapunctus: sm2n: oh lol. Thanks. 2021-04-09T05:30:06Z raeda quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-09T05:30:24Z raeda joined #lisp 2021-04-09T05:30:55Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-04-09T05:31:53Z sauvin joined #lisp 2021-04-09T05:32:23Z sm2n: beach, I'm not sure how what you are saying applies to my scenario 2021-04-09T05:32:56Z beach: That may be because I probably didn't quite understand it. 2021-04-09T05:34:14Z sm2n: (defmacro bar (a b) ...) (defmacro foo () (bar baz)) (foo) 2021-04-09T05:34:51Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-04-09T05:34:56Z sm2n: no matter how much syntax checking you have in bar, the error thrown won't be in (foo), because macroexpansion destroys that context 2021-04-09T05:35:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: foo can't give a useful error message in terms of bar's input syntax, right? 2021-04-09T05:35:09Z sm2n: yeah 2021-04-09T05:35:30Z beach: sm2n: You are talking about errors signaled (not "thrown") at run time? 2021-04-09T05:35:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: sorry, opposite, bar can't ... in terms of foo's ... 2021-04-09T05:36:01Z sm2n: macroexpansion time, sorry I'm being loose with the terminology 2021-04-09T05:36:30Z sm2n: (foo) will fail at macroexpansion time because (bar baz) is invalid syntax 2021-04-09T05:36:49Z beach: Ah, yes, I see. That's the reason for another SICL rule, namely to report errors in terms of source expressions in context. 2021-04-09T05:37:14Z sm2n: how do you accomplish that in this case? 2021-04-09T05:37:42Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-09T05:38:09Z beach: But your scenario is definitely not the one I was thinking of. In this case, my scenario would be the time when the macro FOO was written. 2021-04-09T05:38:17Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-04-09T05:39:01Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-04-09T05:39:08Z sm2n: I don't really think it's much of an issue because CL isn't conventionally written with deeply nested macros from what I can tell 2021-04-09T05:39:20Z beach: There would be some highlight of the (BAR BAZ) expression with an indication that the number of arguments is wrong. 2021-04-09T05:39:38Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-09T05:40:05Z beach: sm2n: That's probably true. 2021-04-09T05:40:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: Racket's macroexpander is basically designed to solve this problem 2021-04-09T05:40:17Z sm2n: I brought this up because this was the motivation for the racket people to move to syntax objects as the result of macroexpansion, which is close to what fiddlerwoaroof was implying by macroexpanding into CLOS objects 2021-04-09T05:40:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: yeah 2021-04-09T05:40:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: If you have mid-level macros that expand to standard objects, and high-level macros that expand the standard objects to conses, you can preserve all sorts of metadata 2021-04-09T05:40:55Z sm2n: but that's because their whole thing is lots of deeply nested macros 2021-04-09T05:41:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: Like types to use for static type checking 2021-04-09T05:42:01Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: I think I see what you mean now. Not that the expansion itself is a standard object, but something like (FOO ). Yes? 2021-04-09T05:42:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah 2021-04-09T05:42:21Z beach: That's an interesting idea. 2021-04-09T05:42:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: Or, (foo (bar)) and then bar expands to (foo #), which foo expands itself 2021-04-09T05:43:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: Which can enable relatively safe code-walking without implementation support 2021-04-09T05:43:06Z beach: Yes, I see. I need to give this idea some more thought. 2021-04-09T05:43:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think reading your paper on SICL loop was the first time I thought of this idea 2021-04-09T05:44:07Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-04-09T05:44:19Z beach: Because the clauses are represented as standard objects? 2021-04-09T05:44:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah 2021-04-09T05:44:31Z beach: I can see that, yes. 2021-04-09T05:44:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, (expand-loop # #) 2021-04-09T05:44:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: Would be the last layer of expansion 2021-04-09T05:44:51Z beach: Sure, yes. 2021-04-09T05:45:26Z no-defun-allowed: I think I was approaching something like that this morning to simplify code generation for a new project. It would use vectorised loads, stores and comparison operators, but my compiler would generate something like (load # vector n), which would then be expanded using a generic function that the client would specialize. 2021-04-09T05:45:26Z beach: I never thought about generalizing it to more mundane macros though. Food for thought. Thanks! 2021-04-09T05:46:15Z beach: no-defun-allowed: Interesting. 2021-04-09T05:46:39Z beach: Now I have something to contemplate today during breaks and such. 2021-04-09T05:47:10Z no-defun-allowed: It's still very fuzzy though, and I've only written down a summary of the protocol for the rest of the project so far. 2021-04-09T05:49:30Z moon-child: (aside: the above discussion of macros and abstraction makes me think that sigils are superior to namespaces. Imagine we use & for function values, % for macros and builtins, and $ for variables. Then the 'quote' symbol used by the ' reader macro cannot possibly collide with a local variable which is also named quote) 2021-04-09T05:52:53Z no-defun-allowed: (The end goal is to make my regular expression compiler more modular, and allow the client to generate specialised scanning code, based on CPU features and/or any specific knowledge of the text to match.) 2021-04-09T05:56:56Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-04-09T05:59:07Z booaa joined #lisp 2021-04-09T06:00:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: no-defun-allowed: if you need complex regular expressions to benchmark, this code here generates some amazing regular expressions: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/rfc2822/rfc2822/blob/master/regex.lisp#L118 2021-04-09T06:00:51Z no-defun-allowed: Terrifying. 2021-04-09T06:01:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: I tried printing one out once to see why CL-PPCRE was taking so long to match something like "foo" 2021-04-09T06:01:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: The string version of the regex was like five screens long 2021-04-09T06:06:17Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: In Cleavir, we get some of the benefits of using standard objects in macros, in that the compiler manipulates CSTs rather than expressions, and after macro expansion, it reconstructs a CST from the original one and the expression returned by the macro expander. 2021-04-09T06:08:23Z booaa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-09T06:08:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah 2021-04-09T06:09:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's occasionally seemed to me that the distinction between a compiler and a macroexpander is sort of arbitrary 2021-04-09T06:10:39Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-04-09T06:11:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: They're both programs that take a datastructure that represents a program in one way and turn it into a datastructure that represents the same program in a different way. 2021-04-09T06:12:59Z Nilby: If I'm remembering correctly I think agnostic-lizard uses a technique something like that, wrapping interim macro expansion in objects. 2021-04-09T06:13:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: One interest I've had is trying to pull some of the traditional compiler stuff into the macroexpansion phase, because that phase has always seemed easier to think about (to me) 2021-04-09T06:14:43Z beach: Yeah, that's a good idea, provided that errors and warnings can still be meaningful to the programmer. 2021-04-09T06:14:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: Nilby: I believe I remember seeing something like that in the presentation on that tool 2021-04-09T06:24:59Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-04-09T06:27:33Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-04-09T06:29:09Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2021-04-09T06:32:21Z quanta[m] joined #lisp 2021-04-09T06:47:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: no-defun-allowed: can you re implementation efficiently merge two matchers? 2021-04-09T06:48:06Z no-defun-allowed: Would you mind defining "merging"? 2021-04-09T06:48:17Z no-defun-allowed: I use the derivative method, so I can do intersections on regular expressions. 2021-04-09T06:49:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: Basically, I've had this sort of problem before: I have N regex-action pairs (think awk-style programs, or HTTP routing) and I want to pick an action doing as little work matching as possible 2021-04-09T06:50:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think the derivative-style matching would work for this, now that I think about it 2021-04-09T06:51:01Z no-defun-allowed: After testing, I can only conclude that submatching here is painfully broken. 2021-04-09T06:52:03Z no-defun-allowed sighs and goes to plan another method for submatching. 2021-04-09T06:54:19Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2021-04-09T06:54:26Z hjudt joined #lisp 2021-04-09T06:58:09Z contrapunctus: Would you folks recommend using Clostrum for sandboxing Lisp programs? Or is there another way? It seems like a complicated problem. 2021-04-09T06:58:17Z thinkpad quit (Read error: No route to host) 2021-04-09T06:58:43Z Lord_of_Life quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-09T06:58:51Z Shinmera: the only way is to either restrict the programs to the point of being useless, or running another process. 2021-04-09T06:59:07Z Shinmera: or actually another OS, probably. 2021-04-09T07:00:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: In theory, you could spawn another process and use the cgroups APIs to sandbox it 2021-04-09T07:01:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: But what's possible here is entirely dependent on your threat model 2021-04-09T07:02:34Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2021-04-09T07:02:36Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2021-04-09T07:05:03Z beach: contrapunctus: It is not quite as simple as that. Let me explain... 2021-04-09T07:05:24Z contrapunctus: fiddlerwoaroof: to be specific, I don't want the program to (unless the user permits them) make any network requests or access the filesystem outside of its private storage. (There's also some resource limiting.) 2021-04-09T07:05:38Z beach: contrapunctus: To get the benefits of Clostrum, you need to be able to evaluate expressions "relative to" a Clostrum environment, so you need a specific evaluator. 2021-04-09T07:05:40Z Major_Biscuit joined #lisp 2021-04-09T07:06:11Z beach: contrapunctus: We have such an evaluator (obviously), but things are not set up for general use. Currently, it is used only in SICL bootstrapping. 2021-04-09T07:06:38Z flazh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-09T07:07:15Z beach: contrapunctus: The existing evaluator turns a source file into a CST (using Eclector), and then the CST into an AST (using Cleavir) and then it uses the AST evaluator of SICL that does the job. 2021-04-09T07:08:10Z beach: One day, I may turn these tools into something generally usable, but I don't have the time to do that now. Perhaps someone else would be interested in such a project. 2021-04-09T07:16:18Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-09T07:19:04Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2021-04-09T07:20:58Z vegansbane6963 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-09T07:22:03Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-04-09T07:22:16Z tophullyte quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-09T07:25:18Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-09T07:25:33Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-04-09T07:26:06Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-09T07:28:55Z no-defun-allowed: As with most of the engine, I have no idea what I did exactly, but submatching appears to work properly now. 2021-04-09T07:31:22Z chipolux joined #lisp 2021-04-09T07:32:29Z motersen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-09T07:32:39Z contrapunctus: beach: I see. I feel quite sad when I think of how, on one hand, it's desirable to have programs in e.g. documents, and yet the state of sandboxing and resource limiting leaves much to be desired. 2021-04-09T07:33:13Z motersen joined #lisp 2021-04-09T07:34:55Z chipolux quit (Client Quit) 2021-04-09T07:35:08Z beach: contrapunctus: I understand. I wish someone would take on the project I suggested. 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#lisp 2021-04-09T09:02:05Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2021-04-09T09:05:03Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-04-09T09:06:53Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-04-09T09:10:24Z vegansbane6963 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-04-09T09:12:54Z Lord_of_Life quit (Excess Flood) 2021-04-09T09:13:21Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2021-04-09T09:15:22Z lotuseater joined #lisp 2021-04-09T09:16:13Z klltkr joined #lisp 2021-04-09T09:28:09Z vaporatorius__ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-09T09:28:10Z ech joined #lisp 2021-04-09T09:31:57Z maxwilliamson quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-09T09:32:44Z ikrabbe: Good morning everyone 2021-04-09T09:32:54Z no-defun-allowed: Good morning ikrabbe! 2021-04-09T09:33:37Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-04-09T09:33:55Z ikrabbe: I often try to write macros that call functions from their arguments: (defmacro mac (x) `(,x y)) 2021-04-09T09:35:10Z ikrabbe: I can guard this call with fboundp of course (defmacro mac (x) `(if (fboundp ',x) (,x y)) 2021-04-09T09:36:23Z ikrabbe: ) but this only works for defun'ed objects, not for (labels ((x () )))) (does it work for (lambdas?)) 2021-04-09T09:37:22Z ikrabbe: Is their any way to check if ,x is a function defined by labels? 2021-04-09T09:37:40Z lotuseater: or try with APPLY/FUNCALL 2021-04-09T09:37:54Z no-defun-allowed: In the case of the MAC you wrote, the implementation will usually signal a WARNING at compile-time if the function is not bound, so you shouldn't have to worry about it. 2021-04-09T09:38:57Z no-defun-allowed: Though I wonder if there is something you can do with the CLtL2 environment introspection extension which many implementations provide (given that FBOUNDP does not take an environment argument, but you can get an environment with that information from a macro). 2021-04-09T09:39:37Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-09T09:41:04Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2021-04-09T09:41:04Z vaporatorius quit (Changing host) 2021-04-09T09:41:04Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2021-04-09T09:41:12Z logand joined #lisp 2021-04-09T09:42:05Z ikrabbe: I wonder that there is obviously no way to do it. 2021-04-09T09:42:50Z ikrabbe: though possibly through environment introspection 2021-04-09T09:44:38Z no-defun-allowed: ikrabbe: This implementation of MAC generates (redundant) warnings for unbound function names: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2381 2021-04-09T09:45:10Z d4ryus1 is now known as d4ryus 2021-04-09T09:47:15Z no-defun-allowed: That might only work on SBCL, but I found a trivial-cltl2 system on Quicklisp which should be more portable. 2021-04-09T09:47:19Z edgar-rft: A macro-lambda-list has an optional &environment parameter to look-up lexically bound functtions (flet, labels, etc.) but I have no clue how that works. 2021-04-09T09:48:06Z vegansbane6963 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-09T09:59:04Z ikrabbe: no-defun-allowed: What I actually miss is a branch for cond, when I parse such arguments: (say "Good morning" (user 10)) 2021-04-09T09:59:56Z ikrabbe: (defmacro say (&rest x) (mapcar (lambda (o) (typecase o (sequence (if t `(,(car o) ,@(cdr o))) (print o)) (t (print o)))) x)) 2021-04-09T10:01:06Z ikrabbe: This is an error of course, as "Good morning" is a sequence also. I need a cond statement if (car o) is callable. 2021-04-09T10:02:33Z no-defun-allowed: Would you not want to test for the LIST type instead of SEQUENCE? And then I suppose (equal `(,(car o) ,@(cdr o)) o) 2021-04-09T10:04:00Z heisig joined #lisp 2021-04-09T10:07:04Z OlCe joined #lisp 2021-04-09T10:08:22Z ikrabbe: no-defun-allowed: list or sequence, the problem of the sequence can easily be overcome by deciding on strings before. My problem is still the missing condition. 2021-04-09T10:09:12Z rigidus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-09T10:09:55Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2021-04-09T10:10:43Z attila_lendvai_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-04-09T10:11:20Z ramHero quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-09T10:11:38Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-04-09T10:11:52Z ikrabbe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2382#2382 2021-04-09T10:12:54Z silasfox joined #lisp 2021-04-09T10:15:42Z no-defun-allowed: Are you trying to print at macroexpansion time? Local functions will not exist at compile time and cannot be called. 2021-04-09T10:24:46Z jeosol quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-04-09T10:32:07Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-09T10:32:31Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-04-09T10:35:50Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-09T10:36:10Z ikrabbe: no, that was just too short, but I begin to understand, that I should define all callable functions for a macro expansion. 2021-04-09T10:37:00Z edgar-rft: I just was going to say "why does that thing to be a macro at all when a function will do the same". 2021-04-09T10:38:07Z kevingal_ joined #lisp 2021-04-09T10:38:45Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-04-09T10:38:48Z edgar-rft: *need* to be a macro... 2021-04-09T10:39:34Z kevingal quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-04-09T10:44:27Z ikrabbe: it does not need to be a macro. But then I need to call it as (say '("Good morning" (user 10))) 2021-04-09T10:46:18Z ikrabbe: I just wanted to shorten the example 2021-04-09T10:51:20Z vegansbane6963 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-04-09T10:55:14Z edgar-rft: It was not meant as a negative critic, I only wanted to know if there is some reason that I can't see from the example code. Writing macros needs to care a lot more about corner cases than writing functions, as you already found out youself :-) 2021-04-09T10:57:47Z no-defun-allowed: Does it? You could write (defun say (&rest r) (mapcar #'print r)) to get (say "Good morning" (user 10)) to print "Good morning" then the result of (user 10) 2021-04-09T11:04:19Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2021-04-09T11:05:33Z ech quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-09T11:07:05Z ikrabbe: no-defun-allowed: actually print is just the test application. Depending on the situation I want (user 10) to be evaluated later. For the terminal it might be (print (user 10)), or in clim it could be (write-string (user 10)) or (present (user 10) 'username) 2021-04-09T11:07:38Z ikrabbe: Here you can see the the present call is affected by the object. 2021-04-09T11:08:24Z ikrabbe: when i do (defun say (&rest r)) the evaluation of (user 10) will likely be a string, but I lost the information that it is a user 2021-04-09T11:25:41Z lotuseater: so you could use a struct or class for users :) 2021-04-09T11:26:04Z gareppa joined #lisp 2021-04-09T11:29:12Z gareppa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-09T11:29:38Z mmontone joined #lisp 2021-04-09T11:30:05Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-04-09T11:30:13Z mmontone: Hello. Does anyone know if there's a way of getting the list of packages loaded by a particular ASDF system? 2021-04-09T11:31:28Z ikrabbe: lotuseater: I could do many things, but I want to decide what to do, when I know anything about the output medium. When I write such a say statement in a html context, I might want to link to a user account... and user is just a simple example of what is possible 2021-04-09T11:35:03Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-09T11:36:21Z Xach: mmontone: packages or systems? 2021-04-09T11:36:24Z lotuseater: ok 2021-04-09T11:37:12Z mmontone: @xach I need the packages loaded by a particular ASDF system. 2021-04-09T11:37:55Z Xach: mmontone: i don't believe there is any easy way. a system may cause other systems to load that define more and more packages that aren't directly loaded by that system. 2021-04-09T11:37:59Z mmontone: I know it is probably not possible. 2021-04-09T11:38:20Z Xach: mmontone: but you could look at interceding at certain points and comparing snapshots of (list-all-packages) 2021-04-09T11:40:27Z mmontone: I thought perhaps there was some trick, like parsing ASDF system and files, or perhaps from swank information, but I don't think there's something. And I need it to be fast and lightweight, I don't want to trigger some file system processing or something like that, because I'm trying to implement an on-line documentation tool. 2021-04-09T11:41:06Z Xach: mmontone: like looking through sources for defsystem forms? 2021-04-09T11:41:18Z waleee-cl joined #lisp 2021-04-09T11:41:29Z mmontone: Yes. But if there's better than that, I'd like to know :) 2021-04-09T11:41:41Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-04-09T11:41:59Z mmontone: But I don't think so ... 2021-04-09T11:42:01Z Xach: mmontone: i don't think there is any way aside from loading the asdf system and looking at the state of the package system. 2021-04-09T11:42:26Z Xach: you could do that with a CL that has a hook to tell you when a new package is made. 2021-04-09T11:42:42Z Xach: or any number of other hacks 2021-04-09T11:42:53Z mmontone: I'm working with already loaded ASDF systems. 2021-04-09T11:43:47Z mmontone: Yes..probably not possible. I was just asking just in case. Thanks for the input Xach. 2021-04-09T11:46:32Z rodriga joined #lisp 2021-04-09T11:46:44Z jcowan: *macroexpand-hook* is presumably the way to look for defsystems dynamically, but 2021-04-09T11:47:02Z Xach: mmontone: another option is to look at the xref data for packages, and see if the source file is in a particular known system 2021-04-09T11:47:10Z Xach: make-package complicates things 2021-04-09T11:47:25Z mmontone: yes, that would be close. I could approach it like that ... 2021-04-09T11:48:41Z jcowan: s/, but// 2021-04-09T11:49:32Z mmontone: jcowan: I don't understand what you mean about *macroexpand-hook* 2021-04-09T11:49:37Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-04-09T11:58:02Z mmontone: I'm using Emacs Info mode to display Common Lisp documentation on the fly. 2021-04-09T11:58:07Z mmontone: https://drive.google.com/file/d/17uGr0B1OVc6nX9f73p3Hhqn5jRSx6bY8/view?usp=sharing 2021-04-09T11:58:21Z mmontone: I'm having some fun with this. There are nice possibilities. 2021-04-09T11:59:39Z lotuseater: oh cool 2021-04-09T12:01:06Z mmontone: Occurred to me when I was using slime completion to see what some package provided, and I couldn't see much from there, docstrings, etc. So I thought that was not the right way, there could be better ... 2021-04-09T12:02:06Z lotuseater: i set *MACROEXPAND-HOOK* to NIL, just for the fun and look what it will say 2021-04-09T12:02:10Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-09T12:03:36Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-04-09T12:05:39Z g_SG joined #lisp 2021-04-09T12:06:14Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-04-09T12:11:25Z g_SG quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-09T12:13:11Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-09T12:13:26Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-04-09T12:17:33Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-04-09T12:22:12Z mmmattyx joined #lisp 2021-04-09T12:26:12Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-04-09T12:30:43Z renzhi joined #lisp 2021-04-09T12:31:00Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-09T12:31:36Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp 2021-04-09T12:34:47Z 5EXAABHZ9 quit (Quit: Aloha!) 2021-04-09T12:35:33Z stux|RC joined #lisp 2021-04-09T12:35:50Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2021-04-09T12:38:59Z renzhi quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-09T12:42:37Z galex-713_ joined #lisp 2021-04-09T12:42:43Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-09T12:44:20Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-09T12:45:08Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2021-04-09T12:48:46Z galex-713_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-09T12:49:32Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-04-09T12:54:42Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-04-09T13:07:58Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-09T13:11:19Z drl joined #lisp 2021-04-09T13:11:31Z johnjay joined #lisp 2021-04-09T13:14:33Z drl: Why is this no longer working: (let ((target-email-address (concatenate 'string "to=" (getf record :e-mail)))) 2021-04-09T13:14:34Z drl: (uiop:run-program "/home/l/Downloads/thunderbird/thunderbird" (list "-compose" target-email-address))) 2021-04-09T13:15:44Z drl: This works (from the command line): [~]% Downloads/thunderbird/thunderbird "-compose" "to=FortChicag@aol.com" 2021-04-09T13:16:25Z Bike: in what way is it not working and what does target-email-address end up as 2021-04-09T13:16:47Z hjudt quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-09T13:18:11Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-09T13:18:27Z drl: Bike, I get "odd number of &KEY arguments" error. 2021-04-09T13:18:42Z Bike: on what function 2021-04-09T13:19:11Z Bike: wlel, it looks like run-program takes keyword arguments 2021-04-09T13:19:37Z Bike: i think you might mean (uiop:run-program (list "/home..." "-compose" target-email-address))? 2021-04-09T13:19:38Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-09T13:20:45Z drl: This was working until I upgraded to a new version of Thunderbird. 2021-04-09T13:21:16Z Bike: i don't know what to tell you. as far as i can tell this is how run-program has worked since 2017 2021-04-09T13:21:16Z johnjay joined #lisp 2021-04-09T13:21:35Z Bike: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/uiop.html#UIOP_002fRUN_002dPROGRAM here is the documentation's description 2021-04-09T13:22:22Z _death: maybe drl "switched" from sb-ext to uiop, thinking they have the same interface 2021-04-09T13:22:57Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-09T13:23:43Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-04-09T13:23:46Z drl: Bike, thanks. I'll check that out. 2021-04-09T13:25:03Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-04-09T13:29:31Z drl: _death, no, I didn't switch from sb-ext to uiop. 2021-04-09T13:30:28Z phoe: (uiop:run-program "..." (list ...)) isn't a valid call though 2021-04-09T13:30:31Z phoe: weird stuff if it worked 2021-04-09T13:34:33Z klltkr quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-04-09T13:35:04Z klltkr joined #lisp 2021-04-09T13:35:21Z klltkr quit (Client Quit) 2021-04-09T13:39:01Z drl: Bike, what you said I might mean works. Thank you very much. 2021-04-09T13:42:55Z cantstanya quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-09T13:43:52Z drl: I don't remember making any changes, but maybe I did. 2021-04-09T13:46:21Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2021-04-09T13:49:54Z karstensrage quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2021-04-09T13:51:47Z ramHero joined #lisp 2021-04-09T13:59:20Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-09T14:02:48Z drl quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-09T14:07:29Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-04-09T14:09:34Z thecoffemaker quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-04-09T14:11:36Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-09T14:11:47Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp 2021-04-09T14:13:26Z thecoffemaker joined #lisp 2021-04-09T14:13:36Z rumbler31_: hey all, trying out ql:bundle-systems. I am trying to make a reproducible build of a local-project, and I've managed to make a bundle of its dependencies (but I can't seem to include the local-project itself). If I were to load the bundle.lisp, how do I then load the local-project without loading quicklisp? 2021-04-09T14:14:31Z johnjay joined #lisp 2021-04-09T14:15:09Z gxt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-09T14:15:15Z logand quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-09T14:15:29Z jackdaniel: rumbler31_: this function has a keyword argument include-local-projects 2021-04-09T14:16:01Z rumbler31_: I see that now hehe 2021-04-09T14:16:24Z logand joined #lisp 2021-04-09T14:16:52Z rumbler31_: its still complaining that it can't find my local project 2021-04-09T14:17:22Z gxt joined #lisp 2021-04-09T14:17:53Z logand quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-09T14:20:40Z seok joined #lisp 2021-04-09T14:23:50Z hypercube joined #lisp 2021-04-09T14:24:48Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-04-09T14:26:29Z silasfox quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-04-09T14:26:37Z hypercube quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-09T14:30:09Z hypercube joined #lisp 2021-04-09T14:32:28Z rumbler31_: seems like a local-projects folder is being created in the bundle but the original local-project filde ris not being moved in. I'll see if I can debug that 2021-04-09T14:35:11Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-09T14:41:43Z ikrabbe quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-09T14:43:09Z rumbler31_: I swear I did this exact same thing a moment ago but now its working for some reason 2021-04-09T14:47:49Z yitzi joined #lisp 2021-04-09T14:51:46Z rumbler31_: copying all of local projects seems excessive but I suppose the answer to that would be "patches welcome" 2021-04-09T14:52:03Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-04-09T14:55:30Z mrchampion joined #lisp 2021-04-09T14:58:51Z Xach: rumbler31_: there isn't an automatic way, but you could copy your local project into the bundle's local-projects directory. 2021-04-09T14:59:09Z Xach: that is loaded automatically but does not involve quicklisp 2021-04-09T14:59:10Z rumbler31_: I just did that and things seem to work. thanks! 2021-04-09T15:03:07Z Xach: rumbler31_: glad to see a bundle user! 2021-04-09T15:03:41Z rumbler31_: its been a while. used it at my last company to check in a source tree that my coworkers could rebuild with make. its been years so I'm standing that up again from whole cloth 2021-04-09T15:03:51Z rumbler31_: but the bundle thing is the hardest work for sure haha 2021-04-09T15:03:55Z rumbler31_: so thanks for that 2021-04-09T15:04:15Z semz joined #lisp 2021-04-09T15:05:57Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-09T15:10:32Z rixard quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-09T15:13:16Z ech joined #lisp 2021-04-09T15:13:57Z froggey joined #lisp 2021-04-09T15:17:10Z rixard joined #lisp 2021-04-09T15:21:01Z wsinatra quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-09T15:22:38Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-04-09T15:23:15Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-09T15:23:47Z yitzi quit (Quit: yitzi) 2021-04-09T15:26:07Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-09T15:26:13Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-04-09T15:29:01Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-09T15:36:19Z rumbler31_: does prefixing an as-of-yet-uninterned-sybol with #: prevent it from being interned? 2021-04-09T15:38:50Z raeda quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-09T15:39:27Z Bike: #:foo is read as a new symbol that is not interned in any package. 2021-04-09T15:43:27Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-04-09T15:45:19Z jcowan: rumbler31_: So if foo already exists, the new #:foo is distinct from it in the sense of eql. 2021-04-09T15:47:11Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-04-09T15:51:04Z DHARMAKAYA joined #lisp 2021-04-09T15:55:12Z rumbler31_: hmm ok 2021-04-09T15:56:07Z rumbler31_: I'm kinda dumb right now. why is it a good practice to use that prefix when specifying, say, quicklisp packages to load. And also, whats the preferred library for doing things like copying files? UIOP? 2021-04-09T15:56:20Z rumbler31_: and by the way thanks everyone for your help 2021-04-09T15:57:39Z jdz: I use strings with Quicklisp. 2021-04-09T15:57:50Z judson_ joined #lisp 2021-04-09T15:58:08Z semz: Because it won't intern random symbols into your current package. 2021-04-09T15:58:16Z jdz: But it basically boils down to interning arbitrary symbols in whatever package the user currently happens to be. 2021-04-09T16:00:32Z long4mud quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-09T16:06:46Z beach: rumbler31_: More important than the random interning is that you send a clear signal to the person reading your code, that the package of the symbol is of no importance, and the only important thing is the name. 2021-04-09T16:09:04Z remexre: If I want to define the same :around on a whole group of generic functions, what's the right way to do this? is there some mop trick, or am I better off just using macros 2021-04-09T16:09:41Z varjagg joined #lisp 2021-04-09T16:10:19Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-04-09T16:11:36Z beach: mop method-generic-function 2021-04-09T16:11:37Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/method-generic-function.html 2021-04-09T16:11:57Z beach: A method can be present on at most one generic function, so you have to make distinct methods. 2021-04-09T16:12:33Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-09T16:12:40Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-09T16:13:14Z remexre: if I adjust my wording to, "define an :around on any generic function (that opts into it, perhaps with a special method combination?)" is that more possible? 2021-04-09T16:14:35Z beach: I mean, you can certainly do all this programmatically. After all, the DEFMETHOD form expands to some calls to functions. 2021-04-09T16:14:50Z beach: But it becomes messy because of MAKE-METHOD-LAMBDA. 2021-04-09T16:15:16Z beach: So I would probably create a macro. 2021-04-09T16:15:38Z remexre: okay, thanks 2021-04-09T16:15:49Z long4mud joined #lisp 2021-04-09T16:22:28Z varjagg is now known as varjag 2021-04-09T16:22:56Z waleee-cl joined #lisp 2021-04-09T16:31:11Z DHARMAKAYA quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-09T16:31:15Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2021-04-09T16:31:15Z Major_Biscuit quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-04-09T16:37:30Z ikrabbe joined #lisp 2021-04-09T16:41:31Z cage_: hi! why (cl-ppcre:split "\\n" (format nil "~2%s")): => ("" "" "s") but (cl-ppcre:split "\\n" (format nil "~2%")); => nil ? 2021-04-09T16:42:06Z cage_: is this sort of a bug? 2021-04-09T16:44:56Z jackdaniel: I once had a problem and I thought: I know, I will use regexps! Then I had two problems. 2021-04-09T16:45:22Z rumbler31_: its not clear to me what the argument to asdf:system-weakly-depends-on should be. I've tried '#:project-name and "project-name" 2021-04-09T16:45:37Z jackdaniel: weak dependencies are deprecated in asdf 2021-04-09T16:46:04Z supercoven joined #lisp 2021-04-09T16:46:05Z rumbler31_: er, then... the other, system-depends-on, that's the one I'm trying to use 2021-04-09T16:46:59Z jackdaniel: try (asdf:system-depends-on (asdf:find-system "mcclim")) 2021-04-09T16:47:33Z gxt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-09T16:48:41Z rumbler31_: jackdaniel: you're the best 2021-04-09T16:49:04Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-04-09T16:49:34Z jackdaniel: I know :) 2021-04-09T16:51:03Z cage_: jackdaniel, :D 2021-04-09T16:52:01Z rumbler31_: cage_: good question 2021-04-09T16:52:05Z yitzi joined #lisp 2021-04-09T16:53:13Z yitzi quit (Client Quit) 2021-04-09T16:53:39Z rumbler31_: cage_: do you need to do that kind of split, or is this example code 2021-04-09T16:55:07Z cage_: i have wrapped this code into a function named 'split-lines' 2021-04-09T16:56:19Z cage_: just syntactic sugar and nothing more 2021-04-09T16:59:01Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-09T17:02:46Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2021-04-09T17:03:15Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-09T17:03:33Z cage_: i have opened an issue report on github about that behaviour 2021-04-09T17:03:51Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-09T17:04:29Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-04-09T17:04:41Z cage_: this is tangential, but i'd love if there was a discourse (web forum) instance about lisp, maybe hosted on common-lisp.net 2021-04-09T17:05:17Z tophullyte joined #lisp 2021-04-09T17:08:00Z silasfox joined #lisp 2021-04-09T17:08:11Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-09T17:09:26Z tophullyte quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-09T17:09:33Z phossil joined #lisp 2021-04-09T17:09:48Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-04-09T17:10:11Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-09T17:11:27Z luckless_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-09T17:12:13Z luckless_ joined #lisp 2021-04-09T17:15:58Z wooden quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-09T17:16:11Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-09T17:17:37Z wooden joined #lisp 2021-04-09T17:17:38Z wooden quit (Changing host) 2021-04-09T17:17:38Z wooden joined #lisp 2021-04-09T17:19:57Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-09T17:20:26Z froggey joined #lisp 2021-04-09T17:21:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: cage_: if you don't actually need regular expressions, there's split-sequence 2021-04-09T17:22:20Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-04-09T17:22:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, I can't think of why that behavior happens 2021-04-09T17:23:31Z g_SG joined #lisp 2021-04-09T17:24:43Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-04-09T17:25:04Z judson_ joined #lisp 2021-04-09T17:25:07Z mfiano: No need for split-sequence if you're splitting strings. It's included in asdf 2021-04-09T17:26:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't like using utility functions in the ASDF package 2021-04-09T17:27:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: Fortunately, there's also: (uiop:split-string) 2021-04-09T17:27:20Z mfiano: That's what I was referring to 2021-04-09T17:27:20Z gitgood joined #lisp 2021-04-09T17:27:45Z cage_: fiddlerwoaroof, mfiano thank you! 2021-04-09T17:30:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's interesting how all these split functions implement the keyword argument that limits the number of items in the return value differently 2021-04-09T17:31:46Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2021-04-09T17:33:30Z jeosol joined #lisp 2021-04-09T17:34:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: (cl-ppcre:split ":" "a:b:c" :limit 2) #| ==> ("a" "b:c") |# 2021-04-09T17:34:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: (split-sequence:split-sequence #\: "a:b:c" :count 2) #| ==> ("a" "b") 4 |# 2021-04-09T17:34:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: (uiop:split-string "a:b:c" :max 2 :separator '(#\:)) #| ==> ("a:b" "c") |# 2021-04-09T17:35:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: in my experience, cl-ppcre's behavior is the one I usually want here 2021-04-09T17:35:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: Actually, sorry, I want the behavior the version I wrote has 2021-04-09T17:36:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: (fwoar.string-utils:split #\: "a:b:c" :count 2) #| ==> #("a" "b" "c") |# 2021-04-09T17:36:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: the count counts the number of times the string is split, so the number of resulting elements is count+1 2021-04-09T17:36:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: With the last element being "everything left" 2021-04-09T17:37:11Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-09T17:37:36Z cage_: i agree is interesting 2021-04-09T17:38:09Z froggey joined #lisp 2021-04-09T17:47:04Z m00natic quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-04-09T17:47:12Z m00natic joined #lisp 2021-04-09T17:49:34Z phossil quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-09T17:49:57Z tophullyte joined #lisp 2021-04-09T17:51:43Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-04-09T17:56:19Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-04-09T17:57:14Z judson_ joined #lisp 2021-04-09T18:01:48Z judson_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-04-09T18:01:57Z g_SG quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-09T18:03:32Z bjth joined #lisp 2021-04-09T18:03:32Z rumbler31_: cage_: there is a discord, and I'm sure there's a slack 2021-04-09T18:03:40Z rumbler31_: and a few subreddits 2021-04-09T18:03:51Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-09T18:04:10Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-04-09T18:05:46Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-09T18:05:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: If there's a slack, I've never heard of one 2021-04-09T18:06:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: There's a room on matrix too 2021-04-09T18:06:40Z rumbler31_: anyone experienced that uiop:copy-files actually moves files instead? 2021-04-09T18:07:19Z rumbler31_: or rather doesn't actually copy.. but just deletes? 2021-04-09T18:07:24Z remexre: is the point of boole that it might be calling out to like, a hardware blitter or something? 2021-04-09T18:09:38Z cage_: rumbler31_, my very personal beliefs make me stay away from proprietary/surveillance platform, of course i hav eno problem if other find this platform useful but just they are not for me 2021-04-09T18:09:50Z cage_: thanks by the way! :) 2021-04-09T18:10:19Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-09T18:10:52Z Nilby: remexre: Yes, but it can have other uses. For exmaple CLX uses the bool-* symbols as the drawing function in the graphics context. 2021-04-09T18:15:32Z Nilby: One can do other interesting things with boole, like database bitmap index operations. 2021-04-09T18:17:32Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-09T18:17:57Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-04-09T18:18:24Z Xach: remexre: there is an interesting post on this topic 2021-04-09T18:18:55Z Xach: https://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3250222105960910%40naggum.no.html 2021-04-09T18:19:02Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-09T18:19:11Z Xach: and the previous one as well 2021-04-09T18:19:16Z Xach: (from the "prev" link) 2021-04-09T18:19:48Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-04-09T18:19:57Z remexre: ok, thanks to both of you! 2021-04-09T18:20:00Z Nilby: Xach: I'm so thankful you preserve those 2021-04-09T18:23:10Z Nilby: That one also gives a good approach to understanding anything in CL. 2021-04-09T18:28:47Z rumbler31_: anyone know why ensure-directories-exist would fail, when all but the last folder in the given path is created? 2021-04-09T18:28:59Z bjth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-09T18:31:49Z seok quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-04-09T18:32:40Z rumbler31_: even the uiop version fails 2021-04-09T18:33:05Z rumbler31_: yup cuz it calls the same function with mapcar 2021-04-09T18:33:27Z g_SG joined #lisp 2021-04-09T18:33:51Z cosimone quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-09T18:35:10Z Nilby: rumbler31_: But what is the error message? It can fail for many many reasons. 2021-04-09T18:38:26Z rumbler31_: so there is no error thrown, which seems to be in disagreement with the spec 2021-04-09T18:38:39Z rumbler31_: it just returns nil for created-p and the directories are never created 2021-04-09T18:39:27Z mfiano: rumbler31_: ensure-directory-pathname is your friend 2021-04-09T18:39:41Z rumbler31_: I sorely wish that ccl could bring back its debugging steping functionality 2021-04-09T18:40:42Z mfiano: All but the last directory being created implies you are supplying a file pathname, so fix it with make-pathname or wrap it in the above 2021-04-09T18:41:10Z rumbler31_: I'm not really sure what ensure-directory-pathname 2021-04-09T18:41:30Z mfiano: Can you show me your call to ensure-directories-exist exactly? 2021-04-09T18:42:41Z rumbler31_: (ensure-directories-exist "/home/user/quicklisp/local-projects/project/project-bundle/local-projects/project/" :verbose t) 2021-04-09T18:43:41Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-04-09T18:43:42Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-09T18:44:24Z mfiano: Not sure, https://gist.github.com/mfiano/bd992be48ac717345cd36bcf07db89bf 2021-04-09T18:45:42Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-04-09T18:47:28Z hjudt joined #lisp 2021-04-09T18:49:35Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-09T18:50:39Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-04-09T18:50:53Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-04-09T18:54:40Z lotuseater quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-09T18:56:22Z mmontone quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-09T18:56:31Z silasfox quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-09T18:57:20Z rumbler31_: i'm spending an inordinant amount of time getting common lisp to make a new directory and copy 3 files into it. sorry to gripe 2021-04-09T19:04:19Z luckless_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-09T19:04:40Z Nilby: One simple way to see what's actually happening, is to trace the systems calls using something like strace on linux or truss on bsd, so you can see what actual file system call might be failing. 2021-04-09T19:09:57Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-04-09T19:17:10Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-09T19:18:49Z hypercube quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-04-09T19:22:28Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-09T19:26:37Z Alfr quit (Killed (verne.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))) 2021-04-09T19:26:42Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-04-09T19:31:24Z silasfox joined #lisp 2021-04-09T19:35:54Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-04-09T19:41:09Z rumbler31_: Nilby: So there's a lot of lstatting of the right paths, I don't understand enough to find the syscalls for copying files 2021-04-09T19:44:31Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-09T19:46:54Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-09T19:47:45Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-04-09T19:49:54Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2021-04-09T19:52:05Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-09T19:52:46Z Josh_2: just found a program breaking bug that was because I missed the : on my :initarg definition 2021-04-09T19:52:47Z Josh_2: oof 2021-04-09T19:52:57Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2021-04-09T19:53:18Z supercoven quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-09T19:55:31Z Spawns_Carpeting quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in) 2021-04-09T19:57:56Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2021-04-09T19:58:37Z Spawns_Carpeting joined #lisp 2021-04-09T19:58:40Z curtosis joined #lisp 2021-04-09T19:58:42Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-04-09T20:01:01Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-09T20:07:32Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-04-09T20:08:54Z hypercube joined #lisp 2021-04-09T20:10:05Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-04-09T20:15:46Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-04-09T20:16:14Z rumbler31_: So uiop:copy-file gets the right args 2021-04-09T20:24:03Z wsinatra quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-04-09T20:24:06Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-04-09T20:26:38Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-09T20:33:48Z rtypo joined #lisp 2021-04-09T20:34:31Z silasfox quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-09T20:34:48Z silasfox joined #lisp 2021-04-09T20:36:29Z rumbler31_: it goes all the way down to two with-open-file macros and just copies the a buffer at a time into the output stream, and if 2021-04-09T20:36:34Z rumbler31_: I knew it was something stupid I did 2021-04-09T20:37:46Z rodriga quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-09T20:40:44Z curtosis is now known as curtosis[away] 2021-04-09T20:45:32Z terpri_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-09T20:45:54Z terpri_ joined #lisp 2021-04-09T20:48:11Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-09T20:48:59Z silasfox quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-09T20:49:10Z curtosis[away] quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-04-09T20:49:31Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-04-09T20:58:42Z rumbler31_: derp tried to make a bundle that didn't include quicklisp that includes a function to call quicklisp bundle.... dummy <----- 2021-04-09T20:59:19Z rumbler31_: hmm I wonder how to fix that 2021-04-09T21:00:02Z rumbler31_: I want to make a bundle of a project, I guess none of the functions I wrote depend on the original package 2021-04-09T21:00:03Z thonkpod quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-04-09T21:00:22Z rumbler31_: seems kinda hacky to just make another package that assumes things about another, like file paths and project names 2021-04-09T21:00:34Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-09T21:00:35Z rumbler31_: or I should use the term system 2021-04-09T21:04:06Z g_SG quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-09T21:06:05Z Nilby: Since Quicklisp can't really be an asdf or quicklisp dependency, then unless you always install it as part of your own installation, things have to check for it manually before using it. 2021-04-09T21:08:21Z Nilby: My stuff can run with or without quicklisp, so I do a #+quicklisp in some places. 2021-04-09T21:09:13Z pve quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-04-09T21:13:19Z thonkpod joined #lisp 2021-04-09T21:16:02Z hypercube quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-09T21:16:11Z Bike: quicklisp is an asdf system, isn't it? 2021-04-09T21:16:29Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-04-09T21:17:26Z marusich quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-09T21:18:39Z nullman quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-09T21:21:01Z nullman joined #lisp 2021-04-09T21:22:02Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2021-04-09T21:23:36Z Nilby: Yes, but I'm pretty sure one might get different results loading it in it's recommended way, vs. just asdf loading it. 2021-04-09T21:25:11Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-09T21:25:42Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-09T21:27:47Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-09T21:29:26Z froggey joined #lisp 2021-04-09T21:33:36Z easye quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-09T21:34:24Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2021-04-09T21:35:07Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-04-09T21:35:07Z easye joined #lisp 2021-04-09T21:36:34Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2021-04-09T21:38:20Z Alfr quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-09T21:38:26Z monaliza joined #lisp 2021-04-09T21:39:11Z MichaelRaskin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-09T21:41:11Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-09T21:41:35Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-04-09T21:41:43Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-04-09T21:41:48Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-04-09T21:42:47Z MichaelRaskin joined #lisp 2021-04-09T21:46:56Z monaliza: Heyo! I've recently learned common lisp and i've read a book about it, I've been kind of indecisive for which other vlafor of lisp i should start using next, because of how many flavours there are. I'm mostly really interested in functional programming, and I'm a real fan of haskell-ish syntax, where it's short, makes sense, and works rather well. I've heard about Racket lisp, Arc lisp, and Scheme, 2021-04-09T21:46:59Z monaliza: and I'm getting mixed signals on which one I should try to extensively dive into first 2021-04-09T21:49:16Z moon-child: monaliza: you are unlikely to get very many responses here, because this channel is specifically about common lisp. That being said: I would avoid arc. Racket and scheme are both nice enough, and you may also want to look at coalton 2021-04-09T21:50:47Z monaliza: Ahh, I see 2021-04-09T21:51:05Z monaliza: My fault for not reading the first word of the topic, I'm very sorry! And, thank you very much! 2021-04-09T21:52:32Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-09T21:54:12Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-04-09T21:55:33Z kreyren quit (Changing host) 2021-04-09T21:55:33Z kreyren joined #lisp 2021-04-09T21:55:33Z kreyren quit (Changing host) 2021-04-09T21:55:33Z kreyren joined #lisp 2021-04-09T21:57:40Z kagevf: use CL so you have the flexibility to take advantage of other styles when FP isn't a good fit 2021-04-09T21:59:00Z kagevf: also, if you want FP only no matter what, maybe consider clojure ... with the caveat that it's on the jvm 2021-04-09T21:59:35Z kagevf: and a syntax that has departed a bit from Lisp and Scheme 2021-04-09T22:00:04Z moon-child: didn't some schemes also adopt the [] syntax? 2021-04-09T22:00:15Z moon-child: I guess clojure also has {} for--hashtable literals, I think? 2021-04-09T22:01:17Z kagevf: I think you're right, moon-child but IDK for sure 2021-04-09T22:02:21Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-09T22:02:32Z curtosis[away] joined #lisp 2021-04-09T22:04:13Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-04-09T22:04:39Z hjudt quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-09T22:04:51Z hypercube joined #lisp 2021-04-09T22:05:41Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp 2021-04-09T22:07:41Z m00natic quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-09T22:10:01Z gitgood quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-09T22:11:33Z m00natic joined #lisp 2021-04-09T22:16:58Z curtosis[away] quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. 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to make [] and {} act like ()? 2021-04-09T23:36:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: yeah, they even exist 2021-04-09T23:36:40Z kagevf: ok, that's what I thought ... do they exist as part of the standard, or in a library? 2021-04-09T23:37:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: There's also things like this that port the good bits of Clojure's syntax: https://github.com/joinr/clclojure/blob/master/reader.lisp 2021-04-09T23:37:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: The standard reserves [] and {} for the use of the user 2021-04-09T23:37:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: iirc 2021-04-09T23:38:00Z kagevf: I see 2021-04-09T23:38:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, technically, libraries aren't supposed to use these characters in the standard readtable 2021-04-09T23:38:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: However, libraries are free to provide their own readtables, and named-readtables exists to make that process nicer 2021-04-09T23:39:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: Also, personally, I tend to think "whatever a library can do should be left out of the standard as much as possible" 2021-04-09T23:41:12Z kagevf: makes sense 2021-04-09T23:41:39Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-09T23:44:55Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-04-09T23:44:56Z Kundry_Wag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-09T23:45:11Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2021-04-09T23:46:26Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-09T23:48:26Z c7s joined #lisp 2021-04-09T23:51:41Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-09T23:52:45Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-09T23:52:46Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-09T23:53:03Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-04-09T23:58:29Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-04-10T00:08:56Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-10T00:09:51Z kevingal_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-10T00:11:11Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-10T00:16:08Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-04-10T00:32:16Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2021-04-10T00:33:30Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-10T00:34:15Z troydm joined #lisp 2021-04-10T00:35:25Z luckless_ joined #lisp 2021-04-10T00:35:53Z c7s quit (Quit: c7s) 2021-04-10T00:36:28Z c7s joined #lisp 2021-04-10T00:38:45Z luckless quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-10T00:40:06Z Codaraxis_ joined #lisp 2021-04-10T00:43:45Z Codaraxis quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-10T00:53:42Z Bike: {} and [] are reserved in the sense that the implementation can't use them. there's no restrictions on programmer users, library writers or not. named readtables is probably still a good idea tho. 2021-04-10T01:10:47Z monaliza_ joined #lisp 2021-04-10T01:11:29Z DHARMAKAYA joined #lisp 2021-04-10T01:13:59Z monaliza quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-10T01:17:11Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-04-10T01:24:33Z aeth: You'd probably want #[...] and #{...} instead of just [...] and {...} to make it really clear that it's a reader macro 2021-04-10T01:24:51Z aeth: it also gives you some configuration after the # 2021-04-10T01:25:00Z tophullyte quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-10T01:25:55Z curtosis joined #lisp 2021-04-10T01:25:57Z curtosis is now known as curtosis[away] 2021-04-10T01:30:55Z semz joined #lisp 2021-04-10T01:30:55Z semz quit (Changing host) 2021-04-10T01:30:55Z semz joined #lisp 2021-04-10T01:33:05Z c7s quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-10T01:34:17Z mmontone joined #lisp 2021-04-10T01:35:12Z mmontone18 joined #lisp 2021-04-10T01:35:39Z mmontone18 quit (Client Quit) 2021-04-10T01:39:17Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-04-10T01:40:28Z curtosis[away] quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. 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initially constituents, but they are not used in any standard Common Lisp notations. These characters are explicitly reserved to the programmer." 2021-04-10T05:46:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs 2.1.4 2021-04-10T05:46:52Z specbot: Character Syntax Types: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_ad.htm 2021-04-10T05:47:43Z holycow joined #lisp 2021-04-10T05:47:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: It seems to me that there's an attempt here to distinguish characters that end-users might define reader macros on from characters that non-end-user programmers might define reader macros on 2021-04-10T05:48:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: Of course, in retrospect, it seems to me that NAMED-READTABLES is the right solution to this sort of problems 2021-04-10T05:54:04Z akoana left #lisp 2021-04-10T05:54:56Z marusich quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-04-10T06:00:52Z holycow quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-04-10T06:03:25Z silasfox joined #lisp 2021-04-10T06:04:16Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-10T06:06:16Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-04-10T06:10:49Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-04-10T06:14:12Z marusich joined #lisp 2021-04-10T06:16:04Z marusich quit (Client Quit) 2021-04-10T06:26:07Z pve joined #lisp 2021-04-10T06:47:34Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-04-10T06:48:41Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-04-10T06:49:27Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2021-04-10T06:49:53Z phantomics_ joined #lisp 2021-04-10T06:50:11Z phantomics quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-10T06:52:45Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-04-10T06:53:41Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-10T06:54:59Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-04-10T06:57:09Z hypercube quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-10T07:09:05Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-04-10T07:09:43Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-10T07:10:21Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-04-10T07:11:18Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-04-10T07:11:23Z monaliza_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-10T07:11:59Z silasfox quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-10T07:13:22Z monaliza_ joined #lisp 2021-04-10T07:20:20Z phantomics_ quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2021-04-10T07:25:11Z DanklyTuned joined #lisp 2021-04-10T07:27:48Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2021-04-10T07:27:51Z tophullyte quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-04-10T07:27:53Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-04-10T07:32:50Z ech quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-10T07:33:07Z ech joined #lisp 2021-04-10T07:53:44Z silasfox joined #lisp 2021-04-10T08:02:02Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-04-10T08:05:39Z joga quit (Changing host) 2021-04-10T08:05:39Z joga joined #lisp 2021-04-10T08:07:03Z gxt joined #lisp 2021-04-10T08:07:33Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-10T08:07:42Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-04-10T08:09:11Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-04-10T08:09:57Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-10T08:09:58Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-10T08:11:53Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-10T08:17:42Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-10T08:18:31Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-10T08:21:33Z gumman joined #lisp 2021-04-10T08:33:42Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-04-10T08:39:22Z silasfox quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-10T08:41:50Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-04-10T08:42:45Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-10T08:44:36Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-10T08:46:02Z rjcks joined #lisp 2021-04-10T08:48:45Z ech quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-10T08:48:45Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-10T08:50:22Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-10T08:50:26Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2021-04-10T08:50:52Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-04-10T08:54:46Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-10T09:06:01Z seok quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-04-10T09:09:31Z fe[nl]ix quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-04-10T09:10:01Z Blkt quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-04-10T09:11:11Z fe[nl]ix joined #lisp 2021-04-10T09:11:11Z Blkt joined #lisp 2021-04-10T09:11:11Z ChanServ has set mode +o fe[nl]ix 2021-04-10T09:11:37Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-04-10T09:14:34Z glaceon joined #lisp 2021-04-10T09:18:38Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-04-10T09:20:33Z surabax joined #lisp 2021-04-10T09:21:10Z monaliza_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-10T09:21:59Z monaliza_ joined #lisp 2021-04-10T09:27:22Z ramHero joined #lisp 2021-04-10T09:28:54Z andrei-n joined #lisp 2021-04-10T09:35:55Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-04-10T09:36:58Z g_SG joined #lisp 2021-04-10T09:38:13Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-10T09:38:28Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-04-10T09:38:59Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-10T09:44:06Z supercoven joined #lisp 2021-04-10T10:00:06Z vegansbane6963 quit (Quit: The Lounge - 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That would be far easier :) 2021-04-10T15:36:08Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2021-04-10T15:38:01Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-04-10T15:38:01Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2021-04-10T15:38:01Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-04-10T15:40:32Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-04-10T15:40:41Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-10T15:42:03Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-10T15:43:35Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-04-10T15:44:13Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-04-10T15:55:03Z sjl joined #lisp 2021-04-10T15:55:11Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-04-10T15:57:38Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-10T15:57:51Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-04-10T15:58:55Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-04-10T16:00:21Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-04-10T16:00:31Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-10T16:02:13Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-04-10T16:02:17Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-04-10T16:02:22Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-04-10T16:09:28Z rjcks_ joined #lisp 2021-04-10T16:12:29Z rjcks quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-10T16:13:53Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-04-10T16:14:15Z sauvin joined #lisp 2021-04-10T16:18:16Z long4mud joined #lisp 2021-04-10T16:22:26Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-10T16:23:52Z sauvin_ joined #lisp 2021-04-10T16:24:50Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-10T16:24:51Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-10T16:25:07Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-10T16:26:32Z sauvin quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-04-10T16:27:25Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-10T16:27:39Z splittist: How do I programmatically create a NaN (Not a Number) on those implementations that support them? Alternatively, what would be good libraries to look for such an answer? 2021-04-10T16:27:43Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-10T16:27:54Z splittist: s/look/look at/ 2021-04-10T16:28:44Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2021-04-10T16:29:32Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-10T16:29:58Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-10T16:32:48Z tophullyte joined #lisp 2021-04-10T16:35:15Z splittist: For sbcl I have with-float-traps-masked to play with, I guess. 2021-04-10T16:35:42Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-10T16:36:53Z andrei-n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-10T16:38:40Z andrei-n joined #lisp 2021-04-10T16:38:57Z gproto23 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-10T16:39:31Z jackdaniel: Xach: yes, let me see what was the previous behavior 2021-04-10T16:39:47Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2021-04-10T16:39:49Z jackdaniel: I'm backporting non trivial amounts of code currently 2021-04-10T16:42:02Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-04-10T16:42:02Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-10T16:42:18Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-10T16:42:46Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-04-10T16:42:50Z dra_ joined #lisp 2021-04-10T16:43:18Z dra_ quit (Client Quit) 2021-04-10T16:43:26Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-10T16:43:28Z dra joined #lisp 2021-04-10T16:46:26Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-10T16:46:49Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-10T16:46:54Z bonz060_ is now known as bonz060 2021-04-10T16:47:35Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-10T16:47:49Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-10T16:50:51Z jackdaniel: scymtym: the regression was caused by the fact that normalize-keyboard-physical-gesture tries to enforce a fixed set of keywords 2021-04-10T16:50:51Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-10T16:51:38Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-10T16:52:10Z jackdaniel: Xach: thanks for the report, I've reverted the part that beirc didn't like 2021-04-10T16:53:03Z jackdaniel: during upcoming days there may be few more regressions (most likely due to my screw ups) 2021-04-10T16:53:03Z dra quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-10T16:53:03Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-10T16:53:09Z jackdaniel: sorry about that 2021-04-10T16:53:15Z jackdaniel: s/few/a few/ 2021-04-10T16:53:41Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-10T16:54:28Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-10T16:55:31Z opfez quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-10T16:55:31Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-10T16:56:29Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-10T16:58:41Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-10T16:59:24Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-10T17:00:25Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-10T17:00:48Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-04-10T17:02:28Z mmontone joined #lisp 2021-04-10T17:02:48Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-04-10T17:05:26Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-10T17:05:55Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-10T17:06:31Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-04-10T17:07:28Z aartaka_d quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-10T17:07:34Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-04-10T17:10:06Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-04-10T17:10:07Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-10T17:10:20Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-10T17:12:00Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-10T17:12:01Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-10T17:13:13Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-10T17:13:20Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-10T17:14:03Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-04-10T17:14:43Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-10T17:16:46Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-10T17:16:47Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-10T17:17:14Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-10T17:20:43Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-04-10T17:21:26Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-10T17:22:12Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-10T17:25:08Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-10T17:26:33Z Bike: splittist: there is https://github.com/Shinmera/float-features 2021-04-10T17:26:33Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-10T17:26:54Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-10T17:27:01Z splittist: Bike: yes. I'm looking at nan.lisp (which does not seem to be part of the system) 2021-04-10T17:27:13Z splittist: s/yes/yes, thanks!/ 2021-04-10T17:27:17Z Shinmera: ? why would it not be 2021-04-10T17:27:26Z Bike: it's in the ASD? right? 2021-04-10T17:27:29Z Shinmera: it is. 2021-04-10T17:27:32Z Bike: or have i contracted reverse blindness 2021-04-10T17:29:41Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2021-04-10T17:29:41Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-10T17:29:53Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-10T17:32:07Z splittist: ahem. 2021-04-10T17:33:07Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-10T17:33:13Z Iolo quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5+deb4 - https://znc.in) 2021-04-10T17:34:35Z splittist: It works! (Underlines previous note to self: when looking for libraries start with Shinmeraware) 2021-04-10T17:35:04Z Shinmera: float-features seems to be my most-used library somehow. 2021-04-10T17:35:10Z Shinmera: At least from the amount of comments I see about it. 2021-04-10T17:35:13Z Iolo joined #lisp 2021-04-10T17:36:56Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-10T17:37:26Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-10T17:37:32Z sjl quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2-dev) 2021-04-10T17:38:43Z luna_is_here quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-10T17:39:18Z luna_is_here joined #lisp 2021-04-10T17:39:29Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-04-10T17:40:21Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-10T17:40:54Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2021-04-10T17:45:11Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-10T17:50:06Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-10T17:51:10Z lowryder joined #lisp 2021-04-10T17:55:23Z tophullyte quit (*.net *.split) 2021-04-10T17:55:23Z varjag quit (*.net *.split) 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constants in a function (without sbcl complaining about an invalid comparison) 2021-04-10T18:00:34Z Lycurgus hopes theys conditions 2021-04-10T18:01:20Z hjudt joined #lisp 2021-04-10T18:02:54Z splittist: And when I say 'use', I mean merely 'return'. 2021-04-10T18:06:21Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-10T18:09:05Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-04-10T18:13:49Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-04-10T18:14:58Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-04-10T18:16:59Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-10T18:18:37Z scymtym: jackdaniel: yes, for some of the commits, cherry-picking will not work without adaptations 2021-04-10T18:20:10Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-10T18:21:05Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-04-10T18:22:58Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-10T18:23:59Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2021-04-10T18:25:09Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-04-10T18:25:36Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-10T18:26:26Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 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(funcall (setf ) ...), but it could still perform the same job 2021-04-10T20:38:05Z McParen left #lisp 2021-04-10T20:39:12Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-04-10T20:39:42Z Bike: yeah, that's about the best there is, probably. why do you need to know if something is a place? 2021-04-10T20:45:12Z makomo: Bike: i was writing a small dsl that allows me to define functions with various parameter passing strategies (call by value/reference/const/result/value-result/name) and somewhere along the line i needed to know whether to generate a (setf ) for an expression, depending whether it's a place or not 2021-04-10T20:45:36Z supercoven quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-10T20:45:48Z makomo: it also allows me to report a nice compile-time if you pass in expressions that aren't places for e.g. the reference passing strategy 2021-04-10T20:45:54Z makomo: compile-time error* 2021-04-10T20:46:12Z makomo: depending on* 2021-04-10T20:46:21Z Bike: you'd get a "(setf whatever) is undefined" warning regardless, right? 2021-04-10T20:48:22Z makomo: hm, why regardless? i would get something like that if i didn't include my check for whether the form is an actual place 2021-04-10T20:48:45Z makomo: it would blow up somewhere inside the generated macro and be really confusing, which is why i wanted to handle it before it ever got expanded 2021-04-10T20:48:57Z phoe: I assume that you disallow out-of-order compilation 2021-04-10T20:49:14Z phoe: (progn (my-macro ...) (defun (setf foo) ...)) is going to blow up in your example 2021-04-10T20:49:36Z phoe: even though it would normally compile and work 2021-04-10T20:50:43Z makomo: ahh, good point i guess. so the first form would be something like (my-macro ... (foo ...) ...)? 2021-04-10T20:51:14Z makomo: and then perhaps my-macro would use setf to set it 2021-04-10T20:51:47Z phoe: you mean like the expander function, during macroexpansion? 2021-04-10T20:52:02Z phoe: or would it expand into some form that includes the setf expansion of FOO? 2021-04-10T20:52:25Z phoe: the latter would work fine, the former looks weird because macroexpanders must be idempotent 2021-04-10T20:53:16Z makomo: during macroexpansion is when my PLACEP would be called, but the setf expansion would be present in the expansion of my-macro somewhere 2021-04-10T20:53:43Z phoe: looks like a case of "if it ain't broken, don't fix it" simply because the place can be defined after your PLACEP is called 2021-04-10T20:54:12Z phoe: somewhere within the same compilation unit, so not even a warning would be generated 2021-04-10T20:54:29Z makomo: right :^( 2021-04-10T20:54:30Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-10T20:54:54Z makomo: does sbcl normally generate a warning in such a case? when you're using a function before it's been defined? 2021-04-10T20:55:00Z makomo: i thought it did 2021-04-10T20:55:10Z phoe: yes, but not within the same compilation unit 2021-04-10T20:55:18Z makomo: hmm, right 2021-04-10T20:55:21Z phoe: I mean, if you explicitly require that all places must be defined before your macro is expanded, then your PLACEP is going to work and be useful 2021-04-10T20:55:32Z makomo: mhm mhm, true 2021-04-10T20:55:44Z makomo: it definitely has some caveats, yeah 2021-04-10T20:56:13Z makomo: speaking of caveats, there's a peculiar thing that i noticed in jensen's device https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jensen%27s_device 2021-04-10T20:56:25Z makomo: which is what i was trying to implement with my parameter passing strategy dsl 2021-04-10T20:56:45Z phoe: also (progn (defun (setf foo) ...) (my-macro ... (foo ...))) - is this going to work without an EVAL-WHEN around the DEFUN? 2021-04-10T20:56:48Z phoe: lemme check 2021-04-10T20:57:22Z makomo: phoe: hmm good point, i wonder 2021-04-10T20:58:00Z makomo: regarding jensen's device: the parameter k that's passed by value is weird, because it's also used within the syntax of the for loop construct to introduce a binding that's not really called k 2021-04-10T20:58:45Z makomo: or rather, the for loop construct is weird, or maybe just the whole call by name strategy in algol 2021-04-10T20:58:58Z makomo: it appears to sort of interact with the syntax of the statements 2021-04-10T21:00:02Z pve quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-04-10T21:00:09Z makomo: i'm aware of the "capture-free substitution (copy) rule" that's used to define call by name, but it's still weird to me that the k gets substituted in that context, because you would think it's part of the for loop's syntax, and not in a place that's to be "evaluated" 2021-04-10T21:00:27Z phoe: seems like you can't get this at compilation time without eval-when 2021-04-10T21:00:47Z makomo: i see :/ 2021-04-10T21:00:54Z phoe: like, FBOUNDP on (setf foo) returns NIL even if DEFUN (SETF FOO) occurs earlier in the same PROGN 2021-04-10T21:01:03Z makomo: right. that makes sense i guess 2021-04-10T21:01:06Z phoe: so you're dead anyway unless you EVAL-ALWAYS things 2021-04-10T21:02:41Z ikrabbe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-10T21:02:51Z rjcks quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-04-10T21:03:35Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-04-10T21:03:41Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-10T21:04:07Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-04-10T21:15:57Z luckless_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-10T21:17:07Z luckless_ joined #lisp 2021-04-10T21:21:29Z ech joined #lisp 2021-04-10T21:28:41Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-10T21:48:28Z gxt quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-04-10T21:52:20Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-10T21:52:26Z gxt joined #lisp 2021-04-10T21:55:52Z theruran_ is now known as theruran 2021-04-10T21:59:37Z makomo quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-04-10T22:00:34Z ikrabbe joined #lisp 2021-04-10T22:00:41Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-04-10T22:01:23Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-04-10T22:01:28Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-04-10T22:03:29Z hendursaga quit (Quit: hendursaga) 2021-04-10T22:07:33Z gxt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-10T22:07:42Z gxt_ joined #lisp 2021-04-10T22:13:32Z sauvin_ is now known as Sauvin 2021-04-10T22:22:24Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-04-10T22:24:56Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-10T22:26:40Z hypercube joined #lisp 2021-04-10T22:31:06Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-10T22:31:28Z hypercube quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-04-10T22:31:31Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-04-10T22:33:30Z copec: What .xsd viewer do people like using under *nix? 2021-04-10T22:34:21Z hypercube joined #lisp 2021-04-10T22:36:55Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-04-10T22:39:40Z phoe: you mean xml schema files? 2021-04-10T22:39:45Z copec: yeah 2021-04-10T22:40:27Z copec: I've previously only done math things in CL as a hobby, but I'm trying to interface with Plesk panels that I manage for my work 2021-04-10T22:41:53Z phoe: the naïve way would be to use emacs with some sorta xml-mode since a schema is just an xml document 2021-04-10T22:42:23Z phoe: a more involved way would be to try and convert that into s-expressions and/or a nested Lisp object mayhaps 2021-04-10T22:42:41Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2021-04-10T22:43:24Z phoe: I wonder if plump can load XSD files... why wouldn't it 2021-04-10T22:44:09Z copec: They have them rendered as .svg's but without a legend or anything, I guess I can look at the actual .xsd files and lookup what the tags mean in the branches 2021-04-10T22:45:22Z copec: I have two initial thoughts on implementation, simple functions that wrap the stream with tags, but it would be neat to figure out a macro to write a defclass hierarchy from the xsd 2021-04-10T22:56:02Z moloneymb joined #lisp 2021-04-10T22:56:43Z moloneymb quit (Client Quit) 2021-04-10T22:56:59Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-10T23:06:11Z entel quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-04-10T23:06:24Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-04-10T23:08:10Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-10T23:08:51Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-10T23:09:03Z jeosol quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-04-10T23:10:05Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-10T23:10:53Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-10T23:10:53Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-04-10T23:23:22Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-10T23:24:18Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-04-10T23:30:39Z sxmx quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-04-10T23:35:54Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-10T23:36:10Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-04-10T23:45:41Z Oladon1 joined #lisp 2021-04-10T23:46:19Z Oladon quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-10T23:49:38Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-04-10T23:49:46Z Oladon1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-10T23:51:35Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-10T23:54:56Z kevingal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-11T00:04:36Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-04-11T00:08:11Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-11T00:15:04Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-11T00:16:32Z sxmx joined #lisp 2021-04-11T00:18:13Z ramHero quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-11T00:30:14Z rme quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds) 2021-04-11T00:33:22Z krjli quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-11T00:40:23Z hendursaga quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-11T00:40:46Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-04-11T00:42:55Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-04-11T00:45:40Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-04-11T00:49:42Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-04-11T00:50:43Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-04-11T00:55:30Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-04-11T00:56:11Z bmansurov: o/ Can anyone please explain why the following macro doesn't work? 2021-04-11T00:56:14Z bmansurov: (defmacro positivep (x) 2021-04-11T00:56:15Z bmansurov: (> x 0)) 2021-04-11T00:56:15Z bmansurov: (positivep pi) 2021-04-11T00:56:18Z bmansurov: 2021-04-11T00:56:29Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-04-11T00:56:58Z hjudt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-11T00:58:14Z bmansurov: Or this: 2021-04-11T00:58:16Z bmansurov: (defmacro positivep (x) 2021-04-11T00:58:16Z bmansurov: `,(if (> x 0) 'Yes 'No)) 2021-04-11T00:59:45Z Alfr: You should use defun for that. 2021-04-11T01:00:43Z no-defun-allowed: Indeed. Though I assume you would want to make sure the returned form tests X, as the macro currently tests if the symbol PI is greater than 0. 2021-04-11T01:00:50Z no-defun-allowed: clhs plusp 2021-04-11T01:00:50Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_minusp.htm 2021-04-11T01:01:49Z Alfr: And as for why it doesn't work, macro expansion doesn't evaluate its arguments. Thus you're passing the symbol PI, and then X is bound to it, thus you're trying to evaluate (> 'PI 0). 2021-04-11T01:02:59Z Alfr: no-defun-allowed, I knew that I missed something, couldn't recall that name. 2021-04-11T01:03:16Z bmansurov: Thanks both. Assuming I want to make that macro work, how do I pass the constant PI to the macro, rather than the symbol? 2021-04-11T01:03:32Z no-defun-allowed: If you really wanted to, you may write (defmacro positivep (x) `(if (,x 0) 'yes 'no)) 2021-04-11T01:05:37Z bmansurov: I see. I guess I should share another example where the problem I'm trying to solve is more pronounced. Here it is: 2021-04-11T01:05:38Z bmansurov: (defmacro seq (from to) 2021-04-11T01:05:38Z bmansurov: `(loop for i from ,from 2021-04-11T01:05:38Z bmansurov: ,(if (> from to) 'downto 'to) ,to 2021-04-11T01:05:41Z bmansurov: collect i)) 2021-04-11T01:05:51Z White_Flame: the parameters passed into defmacro are source code 2021-04-11T01:06:03Z White_Flame: so if you want to pass something, it has to be absolutely literal 2021-04-11T01:06:09Z bmansurov: (seq 10 3) works in the above example, but (seq 10 pi) doesn't. 2021-04-11T01:06:29Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-11T01:06:31Z White_Flame: however, in most cases, what you really want is to construct code that the compiler will collapse for you, instead of trying to fiddle stuff at this level 2021-04-11T01:07:11Z White_Flame: right, because (> 10 'pi) doesn't compare 2021-04-11T01:07:20Z White_Flame: the literal symbol PI is the 2nd parameter to the macro 2021-04-11T01:07:27Z White_Flame: again, it's passing source code 2021-04-11T01:07:44Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-04-11T01:07:47Z White_Flame: the forms themselves, long before anything is evaluated 2021-04-11T01:08:09Z Spawns_Carpeting quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in) 2021-04-11T01:08:16Z no-defun-allowed: You will have to decide if (> from to) at runtime, perhaps by replicating and generating (if (> from to) (loop ... to ...) (loop ... downto ...)). But this would again be better as a function. 2021-04-11T01:08:25Z White_Flame: this is a runtime decision you have to make, based on the actual runtime value being passed into a call; this isn't something you can statically resolve 2021-04-11T01:08:57Z Spawns_Carpeting joined #lisp 2021-04-11T01:09:03Z bmansurov: OK, thanks. So there's no way to solve the above problem with macros other than creating two loops? 2021-04-11T01:09:51Z White_Flame: if you make 2 loops, you'll have a (if (> from to) (loop ...) (loop ..)), and if FROM & TO are numeric literals, the CL compiler should constant collapse one of them away 2021-04-11T01:10:07Z White_Flame: but, an inline function would be more suitable there than a macro 2021-04-11T01:10:28Z White_Flame: to accomplish the same 2021-04-11T01:10:49Z bmansurov: I went this rabbit hole because I didn't want to write a function with two loops. I appreciate everyone's responses. 2021-04-11T01:10:50Z White_Flame: s/numeric literals/numeric constants/ 2021-04-11T01:11:46Z White_Flame: even if you special-cased in a test for pi, what would you think ot generate for (seq x y) ? 2021-04-11T01:11:51Z White_Flame: *to 2021-04-11T01:13:55Z bmansurov: I hadn't thought of variables, but you're right, it doesn't work. 2021-04-11T01:14:19Z c7s quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-11T01:14:28Z White_Flame: it's the biggest thing to mindwrap when dealing with macros 2021-04-11T01:16:17Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-04-11T01:19:34Z bmansurov: My biggest gripe with Common Lisp is that at some point I got this macro stuff, but because I didn't practice writing CL, I forgot it. Learning Common Lisp is not like learning to ride a bicycle, unfortunately. I have to relearn this stuff. ;( 2021-04-11T01:19:54Z White_Flame: it's like that for all programming languages 2021-04-11T01:20:50Z srhm quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2021-04-11T01:21:42Z bmansurov: I don't know. For me, unlike JavaScript, for example, Common Lisp was hard to learn (even though I already knew how to program). It's even harder to retain that knowledge. 2021-04-11T01:24:04Z White_Flame: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2384#2384 2021-04-11T01:24:13Z White_Flame: this has the brittleness of doing equality for the exit, though 2021-04-11T01:24:47Z White_Flame: but with all fixnums, this should work, even if start = end 2021-04-11T01:25:02Z White_Flame: s/fixnums/integers/ 2021-04-11T01:25:28Z White_Flame: ugh, s/incf/+/ :-P 2021-04-11T01:25:34Z White_Flame: too many edits :) 2021-04-11T01:26:31Z White_Flame: and of course the reason there's upto vs downto is that the exit comparison needs to be <= or >= depending on the direction 2021-04-11T01:27:15Z bmansurov: Thanks, I appreciate your help. I was more interested in getting ~to~ and ~downto~ working. As others have suggested, and as you have showed, there are many ways to skin this cat. 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How do you decide between separate defmethods, or use the (:method) syntax on generic functions? Are there any tradeoffs with one or the other? 2021-04-11T09:46:51Z no-defun-allowed: Usually I put a class definition and any methods in the same file, so I would rarely be able to use :method syntax if I wanted. 2021-04-11T09:47:07Z beach: The latter requires the method definition to be in the same file as the DEFGENERIC form, so that's already a limitation. If you modularity requires them to be in a separate file you have no choice. 2021-04-11T09:47:28Z no-defun-allowed: But I use :method for "default" methods which the programmer should know about immediately sometimes, and whenever I use DEFGENERIC as a lazy person's pattern matcher. 2021-04-11T09:48:03Z beach: Or, you can use :METHOD when you have only a few methods that specialize to built-in classes. 2021-04-11T09:48:30Z beach: For example, if you specialize to NULL and CONS. 2021-04-11T09:48:53Z theothornhill: Thanks! Makes sense. 2021-04-11T09:49:43Z beach: Methods defined with :METHOD are removed when the DEFGENERIC form is re-evaluated. Not so with separate methods defined using DEFMETHOD. 2021-04-11T09:49:53Z bjth joined #lisp 2021-04-11T09:49:54Z beach: That is a consideration as well. 2021-04-11T09:51:06Z theothornhill: You mean the "old" version is removed if you change a :METHOD method and re-evaluate? 2021-04-11T09:51:17Z beach: But, yeah, I agree with no-defun-allowed. Often, the best place for a method specializing to some class C is in the same file as the DEFCLASS form for C, whereas DEFGENERIC forms are usually in a separate file. 2021-04-11T09:51:32Z beach: theothornhill: yes. 2021-04-11T09:52:21Z theothornhill: That seems nice though, if it cleans up the image a little 2021-04-11T09:52:25Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2021-04-11T09:52:26Z beach: Or if you change some other aspect of the generic function, like the method combination. 2021-04-11T09:52:52Z beach: ... or the method class. 2021-04-11T09:52:58Z theothornhill: Is there any reason you'd want to keep the "old" version? 2021-04-11T09:53:07Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-11T09:53:40Z heisig quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-11T09:53:42Z beach: I can't think of any right now. 2021-04-11T09:54:10Z theothornhill: Ok. It seems you can mix and match it though, so thats nice 2021-04-11T09:57:17Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-11T09:58:22Z vydd: Hey! I'm trying to do some CL programming after a relatively long time, and for my project I'd like to use https://github.com/plkrueger/CocoaInterface. However, it doesn't seem to play nice with asdf (or at least that's how it looks to me). There are docs on how to setup the environment using the ccl-ide-init.lisp file, in which *module-search-path* is updated to contain CocoaInterface, but when I quickload my project from sly, it 2021-04-11T09:58:22Z vydd: cannot find the :IU package. Any pointers on how to solve that? 2021-04-11T10:00:06Z vegansbane6963 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-04-11T10:10:41Z msk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-11T10:15:57Z msk joined #lisp 2021-04-11T10:22:13Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-11T10:22:33Z bjth quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-11T10:25:09Z kreyren quit (Changing host) 2021-04-11T10:25:09Z kreyren joined #lisp 2021-04-11T10:25:09Z kreyren quit (Changing host) 2021-04-11T10:25:09Z kreyren joined #lisp 2021-04-11T10:27:37Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-11T10:29:06Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-11T10:29:23Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-04-11T10:30:08Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-11T10:30:33Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-04-11T10:37:25Z vydd: jmercouris: googling around, your named popped up in a discussion related to migrating CocoaInterface to use a system. https://github.com/nEXT-Browser/CocoaInterface doesn't seem to be available anymore. Did you ever manage to make it work, or did you hit a road block? 2021-04-11T10:53:33Z luckless_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-11T10:54:30Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-04-11T10:55:04Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-11T10:56:22Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-04-11T10:59:24Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-04-11T10:59:38Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-11T10:59:53Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-04-11T11:00:41Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-11T11:09:11Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-11T11:10:06Z johnjay joined #lisp 2021-04-11T11:12:11Z bjth joined #lisp 2021-04-11T11:12:42Z rumbler31: once long ago I played with something like that on windows, but the experience wasn't great, mainly because the cocoa interface on windows was likely incomplete 2021-04-11T11:16:20Z srandon111 joined #lisp 2021-04-11T11:17:38Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-04-11T11:18:24Z srandon111 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-11T11:20:25Z lotuseater joined #lisp 2021-04-11T11:27:10Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-11T11:31:41Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-11T11:33:50Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-04-11T11:39:39Z bjth quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-11T11:45:34Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-11T11:45:50Z lotuseater quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-11T11:47:41Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-11T11:50:17Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-11T11:51:16Z jmercouris: vydd: I was successful 2021-04-11T11:52:11Z jmercouris: vydd: you’ll have to look at this repository : https://github.com/atlas-engineer/nyxt 2021-04-11T11:52:30Z jmercouris: vydd: if you go back in time you’ll see the cocoa interface working 2021-04-11T11:53:14Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2021-04-11T11:53:26Z jmercouris: I actually more or less use the objective c bridge independently of the cocoa interface after some point in time 2021-04-11T11:57:49Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-11T12:02:00Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-11T12:04:18Z johnjay joined #lisp 2021-04-11T12:09:18Z c7s joined #lisp 2021-04-11T12:12:57Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-11T12:13:31Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-04-11T12:18:02Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-11T12:18:10Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-11T12:19:48Z madage quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-11T12:20:05Z madage joined #lisp 2021-04-11T12:23:07Z hjudt joined #lisp 2021-04-11T12:27:41Z hjudt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-11T12:29:27Z hiroaki_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-11T12:29:27Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-11T12:30:31Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-04-11T12:30:48Z dickbarends joined #lisp 2021-04-11T12:32:15Z theo[m]1 joined #lisp 2021-04-11T12:36:18Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-11T12:41:30Z hiroaki_ joined #lisp 2021-04-11T12:41:35Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-04-11T12:42:24Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-11T12:44:37Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-11T12:48:53Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-04-11T12:49:29Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-11T12:53:22Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-11T12:54:25Z zooey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-11T12:54:44Z surabax quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-11T12:55:02Z surabax joined #lisp 2021-04-11T12:57:23Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-04-11T13:00:35Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-11T13:02:16Z waleee-cl joined #lisp 2021-04-11T13:02:58Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-11T13:07:14Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-11T13:13:59Z Codaraxis__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-11T13:14:41Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-04-11T13:14:47Z Codaraxis__ joined #lisp 2021-04-11T13:16:50Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2021-04-11T13:21:17Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-11T13:22:22Z Codaraxis__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-11T13:22:50Z Codaraxis__ joined #lisp 2021-04-11T13:30:13Z nij joined #lisp 2021-04-11T13:30:59Z nij: Hello! I can ql:quickload :sb-cltl2 from an sbcl repl. But when I put that in my stumpwm config, it doesn't know where to find. 2021-04-11T13:31:17Z nij: Oddly enough, ql:quickload-ing other packages works fine in my stumpwm config. 2021-04-11T13:32:28Z no-defun-allowed: I think that would call (require :sb-cltl2) and not ASDF, so it is up to how SBCL finds its own modules. 2021-04-11T13:34:37Z nij: What is *that*? 2021-04-11T13:35:42Z dickbarends quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-11T13:36:52Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-11T13:37:45Z no-defun-allowed: (ql:quickload :sb-cltl2) 2021-04-11T13:38:02Z nij: Hmm. I see. But it does work in my repl.. 2021-04-11T13:39:48Z no-defun-allowed: Quicklisp doesn't control how SBCL stores its contrib(?) modules, so it is understandable how any other module would load correctly. 2021-04-11T13:41:11Z MichaelRaskin: nij: presumably, in REPL the system is already loaded for other reasons? 2021-04-11T13:41:11Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-11T13:42:03Z Bike: i think sbcl loads contribs by looking at $SBCL_HOME, which might be different between the repl and stumpwm 2021-04-11T13:45:53Z nij: Where is $SBCL_HOME pointing to by default? 2021-04-11T13:47:51Z rumbler31: I don't think its set unless you set it yourself 2021-04-11T13:51:28Z mmmattyx joined #lisp 2021-04-11T13:52:18Z Bike: ok, well, i was looking at module-provide-contrib, which says it "[stringifies] and [downcases] NAME, then [attempts] to load the file $SBCL_HOME/name/name". but it seems to do a little more than querying the shell variable 2021-04-11T13:53:54Z nij: Maybe I should just check what has been loaded in my repl? 2021-04-11T13:54:02Z nij: How to check all load paths? 2021-04-11T13:54:04Z Bike: maybe you could look at (sb-int:sbcl-homedir-pathname) in the repl versus stumpwm 2021-04-11T13:54:15Z Bike: if they're different, REQUIRE will be looking in different places 2021-04-11T13:56:49Z nij: Great! I get the clue. 2021-04-11T13:56:51Z nij: Thanks :-) 2021-04-11T13:57:39Z lotuseater joined #lisp 2021-04-11T13:58:43Z lotuseater: is it equivalent to say (defun sqr (x) (* x x)) and (compile 'sqr '(lambda (x) (* x x))) ? :) 2021-04-11T13:59:10Z Bike: mostly. the first one might not be compiled. 2021-04-11T13:59:44Z Bike: and the second one will probably lack (implementation-defined) compile time side effects like suppressing undefined function warnings for sqr, and such. 2021-04-11T14:00:19Z lotuseater: hmmm 2021-04-11T14:00:49Z nij: Problem solved ;) 2021-04-11T14:01:36Z lotuseater: ^^ 2021-04-11T14:02:32Z nij: (require "drakma") on guix system returns the error - 2021-04-11T14:02:56Z lotuseater: oh. but I'm not on GUIX atm :/ 2021-04-11T14:03:04Z nij: Unalbe to load any of the alternatives: ("libssl.so.1.1" "libssl.so.1.0.2m" ...) [Condition of type CFFI:LOAD-FOREIGN-LIBRARY-ERROR] 2021-04-11T14:03:37Z Bike: sbcl uses dlopen to find libraries, and as far as i can tell from people being confused here, guix totally hoses it 2021-04-11T14:03:37Z nij: Yeah GUIX has their own way to put their libraries. 2021-04-11T14:03:42Z Bike: you need to use LD_LIBRARY_PATH or something 2021-04-11T14:04:18Z lotuseater: oh wow, on nixos the lispPackages.drakma doesn't fail 2021-04-11T14:04:30Z nij: nixos has a large community 2021-04-11T14:04:47Z lotuseater: yes much larger 2021-04-11T14:05:00Z nij: but it's not lisp 2021-04-11T14:05:36Z lotuseater: no it isn't and the syntax confuses me 2021-04-11T14:05:55Z lotuseater: just sometimes, even that it's functional 2021-04-11T14:06:18Z nij: Bike: would you mind elaborating it more? 2021-04-11T14:06:19Z lotuseater: but don't worry, loading drakma in SBCL also throws me into "libssl not found" :D 2021-04-11T14:06:36Z nij: Should I set LD_LIBRARY_PATH to something else? 2021-04-11T14:06:45Z nij: lotuseater: you're on nix? 2021-04-11T14:06:48Z Bike: i haven't used these systems myself. i'm just going off of what people have said here in the past. 2021-04-11T14:07:00Z lotuseater: yes nij, I'm using NixOS 2021-04-11T14:07:04Z Bike: maybe i can find something more detailed in the logs. 2021-04-11T14:07:05Z nij: Bike great it's totally fine. At least I have something to start with. 2021-04-11T14:07:20Z nij: No no it's fine. If you don't happen to know, I'll do the work. 2021-04-11T14:08:25Z Bike: ok. 2021-04-11T14:08:26Z lotuseater: i worked around that with other packages by pushing some paths to cffi:*foreign-library-directories* in .sbclrc 2021-04-11T14:09:18Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-11T14:10:10Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-04-11T14:10:25Z nij: great to know! 2021-04-11T14:11:02Z nij: Now that variable is NIL in my repl. I gotta ask the guix community where those .so files are. 2021-04-11T14:11:31Z lotuseater: i found them here using the tool fuzzy find, very practicable 2021-04-11T14:12:00Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-11T14:12:10Z lotuseater: but it won't be bad to know some special folder, it searches recursively ... 2021-04-11T14:13:12Z lotuseater: and eg for loading to work with mcclim it needed the truetype font path 2021-04-11T14:13:30Z nij: im getting fzf for that.. hold on 2021-04-11T14:13:58Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-11T14:14:08Z lotuseater: yes or for whatever else :) 2021-04-11T14:14:47Z ech joined #lisp 2021-04-11T14:18:47Z VincentVega joined #lisp 2021-04-11T14:26:01Z Noisytoot is now known as Noisytoot__ 2021-04-11T14:26:12Z Noisytoot__ is now known as Noisytoot 2021-04-11T14:27:14Z makomo quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-04-11T14:31:48Z vydd: jmercouris: amazing, thanks! 2021-04-11T14:36:28Z torbo joined #lisp 2021-04-11T14:37:16Z heisig joined #lisp 2021-04-11T14:39:09Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-11T14:41:06Z nij left #lisp 2021-04-11T14:43:22Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-04-11T14:43:53Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-11T15:02:37Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-11T15:04:31Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2021-04-11T15:06:41Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-11T15:10:32Z phadthai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-11T15:14:03Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2021-04-11T15:14:26Z Josh_2: Good afternoon 2021-04-11T15:17:51Z beach: Hello Josh_2. 2021-04-11T15:20:14Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2021-04-11T15:20:48Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-11T15:21:19Z alanz: I am liking that instead of writing comments about what I am doing, I can put :documentation and then it shows up in the info requests 2021-04-11T15:24:33Z long4mud quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-04-11T15:25:10Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-11T15:30:42Z beach: alanz: Except that comments and documentation strings have different target audiences. 2021-04-11T15:31:54Z alanz: I am still working that out. I am using the documentation more on fields, and for defun's 2021-04-11T15:32:20Z beach: What are "fields"? 2021-04-11T15:32:20Z alanz: slots, I guess I should call them 2021-04-11T15:32:23Z beach: Oh. 2021-04-11T15:32:33Z alanz still an immigrant here 2021-04-11T15:33:14Z Nilby: I'm just glad when people write any docstrings. 2021-04-11T15:33:33Z beach: Still, the documentation string and the comment would contain different things. First of all, a documentation string for a slot doesn't make much sense, since slots are implementation details. And for functions, the comment would mention why it is implemented the way it is, and the documentation string would mention how it is to be used. 2021-04-11T15:36:20Z alanz: Right now I am using defclass to create a thing that I intend to be a summary of information I know from various sources, which can be used as the basis of a thing to render in CLIM. So I am documenting per slot what it is sumamrising 2021-04-11T15:36:32Z alanz: Is that a completely un-lisp way of doing things? 2021-04-11T15:37:00Z Nilby: I like docstrings on slots. 2021-04-11T15:37:26Z beach: alanz: If I understand it right, that makes sense. 2021-04-11T15:38:09Z alanz: thanks 2021-04-11T15:39:00Z notzmv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-11T15:39:02Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-04-11T15:43:18Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-11T15:43:20Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-04-11T15:43:34Z notzmv is now known as Guest35219 2021-04-11T15:43:49Z klltkr joined #lisp 2021-04-11T15:44:07Z Guest35219 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-11T15:44:40Z notzmv- joined #lisp 2021-04-11T15:45:30Z notzmv- is now known as notzmv 2021-04-11T15:48:15Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-11T15:49:27Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-04-11T15:51:14Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-11T15:55:43Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-11T15:56:44Z renzhi joined #lisp 2021-04-11T16:00:08Z JCDentonreportin quit (Quit: Idle for 30+ days) 2021-04-11T16:01:03Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-11T16:02:12Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-11T16:02:33Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2021-04-11T16:05:19Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-11T16:06:57Z slyrus_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-11T16:19:12Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-04-11T16:22:50Z phadthai joined #lisp 2021-04-11T16:24:00Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2021-04-11T16:26:57Z jackdaniel: beach: but if you inspect the object, comment won't be (usually) accessible, while the docstring could provide some context 2021-04-11T16:27:41Z jackdaniel: just a loose thought, I don't find slot documentation very helpful neither 2021-04-11T16:29:27Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-04-11T16:30:10Z beach: Yes, I see what you mean. I need to think about what target audience would be most likely to inspect an object. 2021-04-11T16:30:22Z phadthai quit (Quit: EWAYSRCH: Cannot host route (no route to host)) 2021-04-11T16:32:01Z phadthai joined #lisp 2021-04-11T16:33:44Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-11T16:35:26Z Nilby: Unless you want to specialize #'documentation on target audience, I say just write copious reasonable docstrings for everybody. 2021-04-11T16:36:12Z jackdaniel: (defclass foo () ((bar :documentation "provides bar for foo"))) ;-) 2021-04-11T16:37:15Z jackdaniel: or (defclass cat () ((name :documentation "the name of a cat"))) 2021-04-11T16:37:20Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-04-11T16:37:22Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-11T16:39:20Z Nilby: I know slots are like the divergent base case, but sometimes there could be quite useful inoformation about a slot. 2021-04-11T16:39:51Z jackdaniel: sure 2021-04-11T16:40:37Z Nilby: e.g (defclass container () (... (damage :documentation "A list of bounding boxes whose area may need to be redraw."))) 2021-04-11T16:41:21Z jackdaniel: you are right, there may be a useful information. the question is whether it should be put in a comment, in a docstring or in a documentation 2021-04-11T16:41:46Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-11T16:41:56Z jackdaniel: (where a documentation is an external document) 2021-04-11T16:42:00Z mrchampion quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-11T16:42:27Z Nilby: I find it very useful as 1 keystroke away in the REPL. 2021-04-11T16:42:50Z alanz: I am with Nilby on that 2021-04-11T16:42:56Z long4mud joined #lisp 2021-04-11T16:43:12Z rogersm quit 2021-04-11T16:43:45Z Nilby: I even have it so it can the the slot doc from an accessor name or class name. 2021-04-11T16:43:53Z jackdaniel: I don't have a strong opinion on the topic. if the slot's accessor is exported, then it should be documented in the external document. as of whether a slot itself should be documented in a comment or via documentation - I suppose it heavily depends on the programming style 2021-04-11T16:44:37Z jackdaniel: when someone mainly operates on a living image (i.e by relying heavily on introspection), then the documentation option sounds fine; when they work solely based on a source code for clean builds, then a comment is good 2021-04-11T16:45:37Z jackdaniel: mind, that documentation strings in lisp are not very nice. for instance when you have more information to cover, they just clutter the code 2021-04-11T16:45:44Z jackdaniel: there is no proper wrapping etc 2021-04-11T16:46:03Z jackdaniel: you can't also associate with them any semantic information (it is a string after all) 2021-04-11T16:46:33Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-11T16:47:07Z Nilby: My view is there is no external. The documentation is an object accessible from the repl. 2021-04-11T16:47:48Z jackdaniel burns his books and printed manuals yelling "burn! thou is not accessible from the repl" 2021-04-11T16:48:06Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-04-11T16:48:12Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-04-11T16:48:42Z jackdaniel: that said, a live documentation writing and reading system in clim is a nice idea :) 2021-04-11T16:49:09Z jackdaniel: if I had a source code of unfinished thing in my repositories directory, I'd call it "London" after a famous writer 2021-04-11T16:49:37Z dieggsy: I've been in scheme world for a long time and am revisiting my old project euler problems in CL - what am I doing wrong in the CL defun here?: https://paste.dieggsy.com/2021-04-11T12:50:05 2021-04-11T16:49:40Z mrchampion joined #lisp 2021-04-11T16:50:19Z jackdaniel: first: your indentation is wrong 2021-04-11T16:50:34Z loke[m]: dieggsy: I'm afraid you have to be a bit more precise than just asking "what's wrong". 2021-04-11T16:51:09Z loke[m]: jackdaniel: Looks like the default Emacs Lisp indentation. Look at the if. 2021-04-11T16:51:27Z jackdaniel: elisp indentation is wrong for common lisp, isn't it/ 2021-04-11T16:51:37Z dieggsy: This is lisp-mode in Emacs 2021-04-11T16:51:41Z loke[m]: jackdaniel: oh for sure. 2021-04-11T16:51:53Z dieggsy: I'm not explicitly using elisp-mode lol 2021-04-11T16:52:06Z jackdaniel: dieggsy: install slime and use slime-mode for editing common lisp code 2021-04-11T16:52:19Z jackdaniel: it will recognize special operators like LABELS and indent your code correctly 2021-04-11T16:52:49Z jackdaniel: (well, correctly for most cases) 2021-04-11T16:52:49Z dieggsy: jackdaniel: I have slime installed and slime-mode enabled, doesn't seem to make a difference 2021-04-11T16:53:01Z jackdaniel: that's a shame, it works here 2021-04-11T16:53:09Z dieggsy: lol 2021-04-11T16:53:15Z dieggsy: are you sure you're not modifying the indentation in any other way 2021-04-11T16:53:34Z jackdaniel: I'm pretty sure, yes :) 2021-04-11T16:53:37Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-11T16:54:20Z jackdaniel: so, based on responses here: 1) fix the indentation, 2) provide more context of what is wrong 2021-04-11T16:55:22Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-04-11T16:55:36Z dieggsy: Ok, but indentation is /not/ a factor in the code results lol, thats' part of why i like lisp 2021-04-11T16:55:45Z dieggsy: lisps in general 2021-04-11T16:55:53Z jackdaniel: sure, but it is a factor in the peer code review 2021-04-11T16:56:08Z jackdaniel: i.e people may refuse to be bothered with wrongly indented code 2021-04-11T16:56:26Z Nilby: I like to imagine that a modern Concordia will eventually materialize. 2021-04-11T16:56:32Z dieggsy: Hmm. Well, if slime-mode is supposed to fix my indentation and it simply isn't ... ? 2021-04-11T16:56:36Z dieggsy: i'll look around 2021-04-11T16:57:48Z loke[m]: dieggsy: Does SLIME work for you otherwise? 2021-04-11T16:57:51Z _death: dieggsy: slime sets up a lisp-mode hook (slime-lisp-mode-hook) that sets the lisp-indent-function to common-lisp-indent-function 2021-04-11T16:58:23Z dieggsy: yeah hold up, testing things 2021-04-11T16:58:33Z dieggsy: the fact that it's a hook is helpful, thanks 2021-04-11T16:58:39Z _death: so if you C-h v lisp-indent-function RET you should get that 2021-04-11T17:00:47Z dieggsy: sweet, yeah, i had done some gobbledygook with indentation ages ago. I actually used to use CL a good amount heh, it's just been a long time since i've revisited 2021-04-11T17:01:01Z dieggsy: thanks for the suggestions, indentation seems to be working now 2021-04-11T17:03:17Z dieggsy: And i think I found out what's wrong with my code. Every loop, i should be taking the previous value of j, but i'm also modifying j every loop and i think it's taking that. dunno, will investigate further 2021-04-11T17:04:23Z _death: for x ... for y ... is sequential.. for parallel, use for x ... and for y ... 2021-04-11T17:04:48Z _death: *and y 2021-04-11T17:06:23Z dieggsy: _death: that's probably part of the problem, but i think i'm still running into what i described above ? if i starts at 1 and j starts at 2, the next time i should be 2 (old j) and j should be 3 (old i + old j) 2021-04-11T17:06:47Z dieggsy: something about the ...then j ... and ...then (+ i j) ... logic isn't working out 2021-04-11T17:07:05Z sm2n: (ql:quickload :mcclim) is failing for me on the package 3bz, with the error "The function SB-VM::MAKE-EA is undefined." 2021-04-11T17:08:03Z jackdaniel: sm2n: it seems to be a problem with sbcl changing its internals (i.e downgrade sbcl). the real problem is a library that depends on the implementation internals 2021-04-11T17:08:12Z jackdaniel: as of why mcclim depends on 3bz - I'd need to check 2021-04-11T17:08:15Z _death: dieggsy: (loop for i = 1 then j #.(read) j = 2 then (+ i j) repeat 10 collect (list i j)) ;; evaluate two times; first enter FOR, then enter AND 2021-04-11T17:09:44Z dieggsy: huh. that seems to go on forever 2021-04-11T17:10:33Z _death: does it? what does (lisp-implementation-version) evaluate to 2021-04-11T17:10:53Z dieggsy: _death: 2.1.1 2021-04-11T17:11:14Z _death: well, assuming it's sbcl, maybe you didn't follow the instructions.. 2021-04-11T17:11:25Z _death: it's waiting for input 2021-04-11T17:11:41Z sm2n: oh, there's already an issue 2021-04-11T17:11:42Z sm2n: https://github.com/3b/3bz/issues/11 2021-04-11T17:11:56Z sm2n: guess I need to update my ql dist 2021-04-11T17:12:15Z dieggsy: _death: the problem statement is basically just sum all even fibonacci numbers until some limit FWIW. I can do it using a recursive function but i'm trying to figure it out using loop. not sure why input should be involved. 2021-04-11T17:12:56Z _death: dieggsy: input is involved because I want to show you how FOR and AND differs, so the form I gave asks you what to use 2021-04-11T17:13:28Z _death: dieggsy: it's that "#.(read)" part.. 2021-04-11T17:14:02Z dieggsy: _death: oh, no. i got you. I missed the 'ENTER' bit, you're right. my bad again. thanks, this is great and a rather fascinating way to demonstrate the difference heh 2021-04-11T17:14:07Z dieggsy: what does #. do i n this case? 2021-04-11T17:14:31Z _death: #. is read-time evaluation.. so while the form is read, it asks you for the value to use 2021-04-11T17:15:41Z dieggsy: interesting. cool. and does indeed solve my problem in this case actually, i think i was just modifying bits of the code carelessly. thanks! 2021-04-11T17:16:12Z sm2n: jackdaniel, it works now, thanks 2021-04-11T17:18:54Z dieggsy: How uncommon or looked down upon is it to use keywords in loop e.g. (loop :for ... :then ) 2021-04-11T17:19:10Z dieggsy: it works, and it kind of separates the keywords with highlighting from the rest of the code. but is this considered bad style? 2021-04-11T17:19:13Z _death: some people like it.. I don't 2021-04-11T17:27:23Z sm2n: I prefer keywords for loop 2021-04-11T17:27:41Z sm2n: don't really think there is consensus for this 2021-04-11T17:27:47Z sm2n: doesn't matter though 2021-04-11T17:35:27Z f4r joined #lisp 2021-04-11T17:35:30Z mfiano: I like it because a) it highlights it differently which is (imo) easier to read, and b) it doesn't intern symbols into my package, which might make completion of similar symbols more annoying. 2021-04-11T17:42:31Z abrantesasf joined #lisp 2021-04-11T17:44:53Z tophullyte joined #lisp 2021-04-11T17:46:29Z abrantesasf quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-11T17:50:54Z Josh_2: same 2021-04-11T17:51:43Z hjudt joined #lisp 2021-04-11T17:59:34Z abrantesasf joined #lisp 2021-04-11T18:01:06Z surabax quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-11T18:01:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't like keywords because all the extra colons are too much syntax for me :) 2021-04-11T18:01:50Z _death: :it :kinda :misses :a :point :of cl:loop 2021-04-11T18:04:38Z surabax joined #lisp 2021-04-11T18:05:08Z jmercouris: I think either way is OK and will alternate between the two in personal code 2021-04-11T18:08:57Z abrantesasf quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-11T18:10:44Z abrantesasf joined #lisp 2021-04-11T18:12:23Z abrantesasf quit (Client Quit) 2021-04-11T18:12:55Z abrantesasf joined #lisp 2021-04-11T18:13:17Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-04-11T18:13:41Z _death: this reminds me that I should look into bb1's language frameworks again 2021-04-11T18:17:46Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-11T18:18:20Z jasom: Let me know if this is too off-topic, but woud you call the traditional lisp implementation of incremental compilation a jit or not? To me, requiring explicit compilation disqualifies something as a JIT, so the traditional implementation is not, but a case could be made for e.g. SBCL where it will sometimes (previously always) compile at EVAL time. 2021-04-11T18:20:33Z jasom: The 3 sides were roughly "All runtime compilation qualifies as JIT" "Compilation must be implicit to qualify as JIT" and "Some form of dynamic recompilation is necessary to qualify as JIT" 2021-04-11T18:21:43Z ebrasca quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-11T18:23:21Z abrantesasf is now known as abrantes 2021-04-11T18:23:42Z _death: I think the JIT buzzword was mainly associated with bytecode that gets compiled to native code 2021-04-11T18:24:08Z _death: well, translated 2021-04-11T18:25:16Z _death: that happened just before the program was run, on the target platform 2021-04-11T18:25:29Z shka_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2021-04-11T18:26:22Z _death: then there was AOT that had the bytecode translated and the final result delivered, and dotnet had that GAC.. 2021-04-11T18:30:20Z abrantes quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-11T18:31:02Z casual_friday quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-11T18:31:37Z choegusung joined #lisp 2021-04-11T18:31:45Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-04-11T18:32:05Z choegusung quit (Client Quit) 2021-04-11T18:32:34Z casual_friday joined #lisp 2021-04-11T18:32:53Z abhixec joined #lisp 2021-04-11T18:33:33Z abrantesasf joined #lisp 2021-04-11T18:35:04Z asarch joined #lisp 2021-04-11T18:37:26Z asarch: How do you destroy objects? I mean, I have (defun foo () ...) and then I use (foo ...) and then I no longer need foo. How would I deleted it? (setf foo nil)? 2021-04-11T18:38:40Z lotuseater: i think (fmakunbound 'foo) 2021-04-11T18:39:14Z phadthai: I almost read louseeater :) 2021-04-11T18:40:00Z lotuseater: and giving the same function another symbol name eg ^ for expt does (setf (symbol-function '^) #'expt) 2021-04-11T18:40:07Z lotuseater: okay good :) 2021-04-11T18:41:05Z asarch: Thank you! 2021-04-11T18:41:06Z phadthai: yes removing references to the object should allow it to eventually be freed, the time when it'll actually be done is implementation dependent however, with some implementations allowing to force a GC run or to explicitly free/destroy specific objects 2021-04-11T18:41:11Z asarch: Thank you very much! :-) 2021-04-11T18:41:26Z asarch: BTW, does SBCL have ed? 2021-04-11T18:42:43Z Josh_2: ed is part of the spec 2021-04-11T18:43:23Z lotuseater: ah yes, but don't know how to use 2021-04-11T18:43:46Z asarch: How do you invoke it? 2021-04-11T18:43:52Z asarch: ...in SBCL? 2021-04-11T18:43:56Z Josh_2: Nah doesn't seem to work you are right 2021-04-11T18:44:59Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-04-11T18:45:34Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-11T18:45:54Z _death: (documentation 'ed 'function) 2021-04-11T18:47:46Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-11T18:48:16Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-04-11T18:48:22Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-11T18:48:32Z _death: you can add a function that tells swank to tell slime to visit a file, perhaps at some position if source info is available for a function name you might give 2021-04-11T18:49:17Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2021-04-11T18:49:44Z semz: swank:ed-in-emacs does that 2021-04-11T18:50:11Z _death: cool.. I forgot about that 2021-04-11T18:51:39Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-11T18:52:46Z _death: the only issue there is that it returns NIL 2021-04-11T18:53:05Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-11T18:53:46Z slyrus_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-11T18:59:08Z asarch: How do you personalize Slime? 2021-04-11T18:59:22Z _death: maintain a fork? 2021-04-11T18:59:31Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2021-04-11T19:02:06Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-11T19:02:32Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-04-11T19:02:47Z cage_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-11T19:05:10Z Lycurgus: sly has some things built in, eg. choosing the implementation 2021-04-11T19:05:13Z asarch: I mean, its configuration file to add/remove features 2021-04-11T19:06:26Z _death: there's your .emacs, and then there's .swank.lisp for the cl side 2021-04-11T19:10:35Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-04-11T19:11:55Z alanz: I have sly-edit-definition bound to "g d" via evil-mode. And it works for me, takes me to the source 2021-04-11T19:12:09Z alanz: no custom config 2021-04-11T19:15:17Z gioyik joined #lisp 2021-04-11T19:19:47Z asarch: Thank you guys, thank you very much! :-) 2021-04-11T19:26:43Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-04-11T19:26:44Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2021-04-11T19:26:44Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-04-11T19:26:57Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-11T19:28:00Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-04-11T19:31:18Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-11T19:32:05Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-04-11T19:37:17Z Krystof joined #lisp 2021-04-11T19:38:38Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-04-11T19:40:05Z asarch: Here in México a fellows stole a truck (a Hilux pickup) and in the truck there was an industrial device for X rays which uses the Iridium-192 radioactive element. As the meme says: "Kare-ra wa mō shinde iru" X-P 2021-04-11T19:40:37Z Shinmera: Thought I'd also throw it in here that I just released a big update to my game, Kandria, for free: https://reader.tymoon.eu/article/395 2021-04-11T19:40:49Z Shinmera: It's on topic as the game is written entirely in Lisp :) 2021-04-11T19:42:02Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-11T19:49:23Z ramHero joined #lisp 2021-04-11T19:50:01Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2021-04-11T19:53:06Z phoe: Shinmera: I really enjoy reading those, thanks for posting! 2021-04-11T19:53:10Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-11T19:53:14Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2021-04-11T19:53:34Z Shinmera: Glad to hear! 2021-04-11T19:54:53Z andrei-n quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-11T19:55:39Z gitgoood quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-11T20:00:04Z abrantesasf quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-11T20:00:30Z jprajzne quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-11T20:01:24Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2021-04-11T20:02:14Z gitgood joined #lisp 2021-04-11T20:04:58Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-11T20:05:09Z borodust quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-11T20:07:08Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-04-11T20:11:16Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-11T20:15:28Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-04-11T20:18:28Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-11T20:19:51Z contrapunctus: Shinmera: fever -> fewer? 2021-04-11T20:20:27Z Shinmera: Fixed, thanks! 2021-04-11T20:32:11Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-11T20:35:33Z Nilby: TIL CEO of Netflix was once a Lisper, worked on a CLIM app 2021-04-11T20:37:03Z lotuseater: uii 2021-04-11T20:37:10Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-11T20:38:01Z lotuseater: and now that is full of so-called microservices 2021-04-11T20:38:11Z Xach: Nilby: was once a coffee-fetching intern at symbolics, even 2021-04-11T20:38:20Z mfiano: Co-CEO 2021-04-11T20:40:47Z lotuseater: any lisp connected internship would be awesome, but no chance at all :( 2021-04-11T20:41:22Z borodust joined #lisp 2021-04-11T20:44:35Z klltkr quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-04-11T20:44:50Z pve quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-04-11T20:46:04Z seok joined #lisp 2021-04-11T20:51:49Z nckx is now known as jorts 2021-04-11T20:55:56Z contrapunctus: lotuseater: looked here? https://github.com/azzamsa/awesome-lisp-companies 2021-04-11T20:56:33Z abhixec quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-11T20:56:41Z lotuseater: yes i know that repo, but nothing is in my reach or I'm not good enough anyway 2021-04-11T20:58:37Z lotuseater: ok, 6 in germany, but maybe they can only use people with phd 2021-04-11T20:59:25Z contrapunctus: lotuseater: I also know that Bevuta GmbH is the home of most of the CHICKEN Scheme devs, but it's not listed there yet 2021-04-11T21:00:21Z lotuseater: ah chicken, one of the outstanding scheme implementations, right? 2021-04-11T21:00:32Z Shinmera: I wish I had the money to hire another coder 2021-04-11T21:00:36Z lotuseater: but maybe better in #lispcafe 2021-04-11T21:01:04Z lotuseater: why that Shinmera? 2021-04-11T21:01:19Z Shinmera: Why what? 2021-04-11T21:01:22Z contrapunctus: lotuseater: one of the 'practical' ones. 2021-04-11T21:01:23Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-11T21:02:09Z lotuseater: what you meant, hiring another coder 2021-04-11T21:02:36Z Shinmera: because there's a lot of work and only me to do it at the moment? 2021-04-11T21:03:00Z lotuseater: okay seems meaningful ^^ 2021-04-11T21:03:52Z lotuseater: here are many very intelligent people :) 2021-04-11T21:04:31Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-11T21:04:49Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-04-11T21:06:49Z tophullyte quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-11T21:11:35Z lotuseater: do you have an example for the kind or topic of work Shinmera? 2021-04-11T21:12:06Z Shinmera: I posted an article about what I do just before 2021-04-11T21:12:18Z lotuseater: oh sry, yes, i opened 2021-04-11T21:13:59Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2021-04-11T21:14:30Z Josh_2: I have a dumped lisp image that depends on slynk, however when I try to connect to it using port forwarding sly always fails 2021-04-11T21:15:25Z Josh_2: dw 2021-04-11T21:15:28Z Josh_2: I got it :P 2021-04-11T21:15:39Z Josh_2: I hadn't restarted bash after modifying my .bashrc 2021-04-11T21:16:51Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-11T21:16:52Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2021-04-11T21:16:58Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-04-11T21:17:38Z tophullyte joined #lisp 2021-04-11T21:19:54Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-04-11T21:21:04Z curtosis joined #lisp 2021-04-11T21:21:08Z curtosis is now known as curtosis[away] 2021-04-11T21:22:23Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-04-11T21:22:57Z Josh_2: Okay well its working but I get this error when I connect https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2385#2385 2021-04-11T21:26:23Z Kundry_W_ joined #lisp 2021-04-11T21:26:58Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-11T21:27:23Z c7s quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-11T21:29:29Z hendursa1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-11T21:29:36Z Josh_2: Well idk 2021-04-11T21:29:55Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-04-11T21:30:16Z _death: somewhere, maybe a dot file, you have a reference to this cl-asdf thing.. likely you want to get rid of it 2021-04-11T21:35:41Z curtosis[away] quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-04-11T21:36:32Z mmontone joined #lisp 2021-04-11T21:36:44Z alanz slightly surprised that (car nil) gives nil 2021-04-11T21:37:48Z lotuseater: alanz: it's surprising that (last '(1 2 3)) gives '(3) and not 3 2021-04-11T21:38:06Z alanz: agree. 2021-04-11T21:38:21Z Shinmera: It's the last(cons), not last(element) :shrug: 2021-04-11T21:38:29Z alanz: I'm used to haskell, where things blow up if you use them not as expected. 2021-04-11T21:38:31Z lotuseater: yes i see 2021-04-11T21:38:53Z _death: but it is expected, by lispers 2021-04-11T21:38:55Z lotuseater: haha me too alanz 2021-04-11T21:38:59Z Shinmera: alanz: ? It's specificed that car/cdr of nil is nil. 2021-04-11T21:39:21Z alanz: it was only unexpected to me, I had the wrong expectation 2021-04-11T21:40:32Z lotuseater: so we don't have to struggle with monadic stuff 2021-04-11T21:40:36Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-11T21:41:29Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 28.0.50)) 2021-04-11T21:42:14Z alanz: you get used to the monadic stuff after a while. Same with rust and its borrow checker. 2021-04-11T21:42:24Z lotuseater: yes 2021-04-11T21:42:50Z alanz: I think every language has things that eventually you internalise and then don't even notice what you are doing. Landmines that you dodge without thinking. 2021-04-11T21:43:20Z entel joined #lisp 2021-04-11T21:43:24Z lotuseater: like (format nil "~a" nil) => nil and not "" 2021-04-11T21:43:34Z alanz: yes. 2021-04-11T21:43:46Z lotuseater: or EVENP, ODDP just work on integers, otherwise throws type error 2021-04-11T21:43:59Z alanz: I have to say, I am pretty impressed with the feedback SBCL gives about code, when there are problems 2021-04-11T21:44:18Z _death: eh? (format nil "~A" nil) => "NIL" 2021-04-11T21:44:24Z lotuseater: but the most stuff is very consistent, eg support for 0-dimensional arrays 2021-04-11T21:44:46Z lotuseater: oh damn _death, yes you're right :D 2021-04-11T21:45:59Z _death: these things usually have reasons.. which sometimes (oftentimes) are good 2021-04-11T21:46:28Z wooden quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-11T21:46:54Z _death: for example, getting the last cons is useful if you want to modify it 2021-04-11T21:47:27Z _death: you can also give an additional argument, to get the nth cons from the end 2021-04-11T21:47:29Z lotuseater: yes most stuff has it's reasons in the spec :) 2021-04-11T21:47:47Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-04-11T21:48:15Z wooden joined #lisp 2021-04-11T21:48:15Z wooden quit (Changing host) 2021-04-11T21:48:16Z wooden joined #lisp 2021-04-11T21:48:22Z lotuseater: haha i changed PRINT-OBJECT with eql for NIL to "", funny 2021-04-11T21:48:43Z _death: well, unfortunately the spec doesn't have a Rationale section with all the history :).. but we do have cl-su-ai and c.l.l for example 2021-04-11T21:48:59Z lotuseater: oh what's that? 2021-04-11T21:49:36Z _death: what's what 2021-04-11T21:49:54Z lotuseater: cl-su-ai and c.l.l 2021-04-11T21:51:09Z ebrasca: Why? 2021-04-11T21:51:15Z _death: cl-su-ai is a mail archive containing some discussions from the CL standardization effort https://cl-su-ai.cddddr.org/ 2021-04-11T21:51:29Z moon-child: c.l.l is the comp.lang.lisp newsgroup 2021-04-11T21:51:43Z moon-child: (not deceased, but probably on its last elbows) 2021-04-11T21:51:46Z lotuseater: ah 2021-04-11T21:52:04Z lotuseater: yes i found the cddddr site :) 2021-04-11T21:53:37Z _death: I put it and some other archives here https://github.com/death/gnus-friendly-archives 2021-04-11T21:55:05Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-11T21:56:49Z abhixec joined #lisp 2021-04-11T21:58:18Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-04-11T22:05:41Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-04-11T22:22:04Z renzhi quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-04-11T22:23:10Z hjudt quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-11T22:23:57Z ebrasca: wow 2021-04-11T22:29:03Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-11T22:29:28Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-04-11T22:33:13Z curtosis joined #lisp 2021-04-11T22:47:26Z curtosis quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. 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How can you spend years doing that stuff over and over again. 2021-04-12T00:56:48Z Spawns_Carpeting quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in) 2021-04-12T00:57:06Z Spawns_Carpeting joined #lisp 2021-04-12T00:57:14Z no-defun-allowed: wj guy? 2021-04-12T01:00:29Z zooey joined #lisp 2021-04-12T01:01:45Z Bike: the few times i've looked at c.l.c this guy wj made a ton of posts about how CL sucked. 2021-04-12T01:01:55Z Bike: like a ton of posts. some kind of bot i guess. 2021-04-12T01:02:45Z moon-child: the main ~spammers I remember are rick c hodgin (religious propaganda) and prof. fir (all-around fun times) 2021-04-12T01:02:53Z moon-child: oh, also suresh 2021-04-12T01:03:26Z no-defun-allowed: raisins CL sucks 1. Only common why would you not use items with higher rarity 2. No abelian groups for pure IO 3. Too fast, can't overcharge people for rewriting in C 2021-04-12T01:03:41Z semz: wait a second, what is c.l.c? i assumed comp.lang.c, but anti-CL posts sound out of place 2021-04-12T01:03:42Z Bike: is the IO monad abelian 2021-04-12T01:03:51Z Bike: semz: again, this was spammy 2021-04-12T01:04:05Z semz: oh i see. wild stuff 2021-04-12T01:04:07Z Bike: oh, sorry, iw as thinking of c.l.l 2021-04-12T01:04:11Z Bike: i don't know what c.l.c is 2021-04-12T01:05:06Z no-defun-allowed: Bike: no, else IO would be commutative and that wouldn't help with "sequencing" IO 2021-04-12T01:05:17Z Bike: makes sense 2021-04-12T01:05:35Z no-defun-allowed: I think that's how it is, I dunno and only came up with Abelian IO for the joke. 2021-04-12T01:05:58Z GZJ0X_ joined #lisp 2021-04-12T01:09:49Z gzj quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-12T01:15:23Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-04-12T01:18:25Z dieggsy: is there a concise way to say "1e6 as an integer" short of flooring it 2021-04-12T01:18:55Z Bike: Do you mean you want a shorter integer literal syntax? 2021-04-12T01:19:04Z Bike: or do you have some float at runtime and you want an integer. 2021-04-12T01:20:55Z asarch joined #lisp 2021-04-12T01:21:27Z dieggsy: Bike: The former, I think. I want to be able to type "the integer 1e6" without 1000000 or (floor 1e6) 2021-04-12T01:21:41Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-12T01:22:30Z Bike: i see. there's no built in way. if you wanted you could probably write a reader macro fairly simply. 2021-04-12T01:22:43Z Bike: i wanna say i've seen "1r6" as an extension before, but i don't remember 2021-04-12T01:23:10Z dieggsy: fair. thanks! 2021-04-12T01:23:49Z edgar-rft: what about (expt 10 6) 2021-04-12T01:25:19Z Bike: that's more characters than 1000000 2021-04-12T01:25:33Z Bike: though i'm going to imagine dieggsy is more concerned about 1e27 or suchlike 2021-04-12T01:25:58Z edgar-rft: "the integer 1e6" is also more characters than 1000000 2021-04-12T01:25:59Z dieggsy: edgar-rft: lol, certainly an option actually. Bike right. 2021-04-12T01:26:21Z dieggsy: edgar-rft: that wasn't literal though, just what i *meant* 2021-04-12T01:26:31Z dieggsy: scheme (don't kill me) has #e1e6 2021-04-12T01:27:12Z dieggsy: suppose it could just be implemented with a reader macro as mentioned 2021-04-12T01:27:18Z edgar-rft: expt is what I am using for huge bignums, you're of course free to use something different 2021-04-12T01:29:07Z semz joined #lisp 2021-04-12T01:29:07Z semz quit (Changing host) 2021-04-12T01:29:07Z semz joined #lisp 2021-04-12T01:30:50Z Bike: oh, it's actually really easy because of how dispatching macro characters work 2021-04-12T01:31:13Z Bike: (defun sharp-e (stream sub num) (declare (ignore sub)) (* num (expt 10 (read stream t nil t)))) 2021-04-12T01:31:21Z Bike: (possibly with more error checking) 2021-04-12T01:32:03Z no-defun-allowed: So that would read #1e10? 2021-04-12T01:32:10Z Bike: yeah 2021-04-12T01:32:48Z edgar-rft: using 1e is rather seldom, you usually need numbers like 127364538463e16278364536372 and I doubt that this can be shortened by a read macro 2021-04-12T01:33:42Z mmontone quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-12T01:35:22Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2021-04-12T01:39:39Z ikrabbe|2 joined #lisp 2021-04-12T01:39:58Z ikrabbe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-12T01:44:41Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-12T01:45:04Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2021-04-12T01:46:07Z GZJ0X_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-12T01:46:27Z GZJ0X_ joined #lisp 2021-04-12T01:49:20Z lotuseat` joined #lisp 2021-04-12T01:50:06Z ikrabbe joined #lisp 2021-04-12T01:50:46Z mmmattyx quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-04-12T01:50:55Z lotuseater quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-04-12T01:52:41Z ikrabbe|2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-12T01:53:34Z asarch_ joined #lisp 2021-04-12T01:56:19Z asarch quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-12T01:57:15Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-04-12T02:01:41Z indathrone quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-12T02:16:22Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-12T02:22:11Z asarch_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-12T02:29:36Z Jesin joined #lisp 2021-04-12T02:40:59Z amerigo quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-04-12T02:42:34Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-12T02:43:19Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-04-12T02:49:26Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2021-04-12T02:50:36Z _jrjsmrtn joined #lisp 2021-04-12T02:51:11Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-12T03:00:07Z jeosol quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-04-12T03:01:26Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2021-04-12T03:02:20Z Alfr is now known as Guest31604 2021-04-12T03:02:25Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-04-12T03:04:35Z Guest31604 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-04-12T03:09:43Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-12T03:25:43Z klltkr joined #lisp 2021-04-12T03:25:53Z klltkr quit (Client Quit) 2021-04-12T03:26:08Z GZJ0X_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-12T03:26:29Z GZJ0X_ joined #lisp 2021-04-12T03:35:01Z wooden quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-12T03:40:41Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-04-12T03:45:02Z jeosol joined #lisp 2021-04-12T03:50:08Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-04-12T03:53:49Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2021-04-12T03:56:41Z abhixec quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-12T03:57:22Z torbo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-12T03:58:18Z lotuseat` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-12T03:58:39Z lotuseat` joined #lisp 2021-04-12T03:59:29Z abhixec joined #lisp 2021-04-12T03:59:59Z hsaziz joined #lisp 2021-04-12T04:00:54Z hsaziz quit (Client Quit) 2021-04-12T04:07:00Z phoe6245 joined #lisp 2021-04-12T04:12:21Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2021-04-12T04:13:02Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-04-12T04:15:02Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-04-12T04:15:29Z mtd__ joined #lisp 2021-04-12T04:15:40Z ldfung left #lisp 2021-04-12T04:15:43Z karstensrage quit (Quit: ZNC - 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Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-04-12T06:54:26Z markasoftware joined #lisp 2021-04-12T06:57:20Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-12T07:06:17Z f4r5 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-12T07:15:38Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-04-12T07:16:18Z splittist: If we're suggesting alternative numeric literal syntax, python allowing #\_ as a separator seems nice. 1_000_000 or #b1001_1001_1111 or #xDE_AD_BE_EF (: 2021-04-12T07:17:50Z moon-child: splittist: agreed 2021-04-12T07:18:57Z gioyik quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-04-12T07:25:41Z tophullyte quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-12T07:29:25Z g0d_shatter joined #lisp 2021-04-12T07:30:35Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-12T07:30:55Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-04-12T07:32:40Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-12T07:32:46Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-04-12T07:33:00Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2021-04-12T07:36:35Z surabax joined #lisp 2021-04-12T07:38:01Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-04-12T07:42:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: splittist: although, I sort of like the model used by the "numderline" font patching tool: make display conventions for numeric literals a font feature rather than actual source characters 2021-04-12T07:43:07Z moon-child: hmmm. I'm not really a fan of things like that 2021-04-12T07:43:35Z moon-child: (nor ligatures.) From the rendering side, I want my texteditor to be a relatively dumb grid of characters. Plus some colour, maybe 2021-04-12T07:48:59Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-04-12T07:49:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: I agree about ligatures 2021-04-12T07:49:40Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-12T07:49:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think formatting numbers readably is more like syntax highlighting than ligatures, though 2021-04-12T07:50:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: The issue with a python-style 1_000_000 is, now I have all sorts of issues when I want to copy the numbers from my source code somewhere else 2021-04-12T07:50:57Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-04-12T07:51:02Z anticrisis quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-12T07:51:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: And similar issues if *PRINT-PRETTY* decides to include the grouping character 2021-04-12T07:51:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: I sort of wonder if the issue could be solved with a font-lock rule for which characters to color slightly differently 2021-04-12T07:52:47Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-04-12T07:55:42Z moon-child: colouration could work, but I think I prefer inline _. Copy-pasting--is that really such a concern? I almost never do that. In particular, I don't think it's particularly reasonable to expect forms from one language to be compatible with forms from another, as a general rule 2021-04-12T07:57:11Z White_Flame slowly slides the term "presentation" into the conversation 2021-04-12T07:59:30Z [mark] joined #lisp 2021-04-12T08:02:41Z mrchampion quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-12T08:03:52Z Nilby: There's this 10̦000̦00 or this 10̲000̲00 but I think they're more trouble than they're worth. 2021-04-12T08:03:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: White_Flame: exactly 2021-04-12T08:04:36Z White_Flame: dead text chars are an anti-pattern 2021-04-12T08:05:24Z moon-child: White_Flame: do you avoid whitespace, then? 2021-04-12T08:05:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: moon-child: copy-pasting isn't a huge concern, but I find it irritating when I have to reformat basic data types between langauges 2021-04-12T08:05:55Z White_Flame: solving these issues necessarily means replacing ecosystems 2021-04-12T08:06:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: Print syntax is more important here than read syntax, though 2021-04-12T08:06:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: Anyways: Excel and other spreadsheet tools have all sorts of nice number formatting options 2021-04-12T08:06:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: It'd be great for me to be able to set such display options on a variable-by-variable basis :) 2021-04-12T08:07:12Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-04-12T08:08:02Z White_Flame: hmm, but when copying a cell (at least in libreoffice), you get the presentation form, not the raw form 2021-04-12T08:08:08Z White_Flame: when pasting into a text buffer 2021-04-12T08:09:26Z Nilby: fiddlerwoaroof: (setf (get 'x 'number-style) 'fancy) 2021-04-12T08:09:33Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-12T08:09:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: White_Flame: that's sort of a bug, though 2021-04-12T08:09:40Z Nilby: Now you just need a thing to show it. 2021-04-12T08:10:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: And, I don't think Excel has that limitation: at least, you can choose whether to paste the display formatting or the values at paste time 2021-04-12T08:10:42Z Nilby: There have been Lisp systems where symbols have special presentation. 2021-04-12T08:10:45Z White_Flame: I mean pasting into a text editor 2021-04-12T08:11:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: Well, that's because of limitations of the normal copy/paste protocols 2021-04-12T08:11:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: And/or the application's use of them 2021-04-12T08:12:13Z White_Flame: yep. The general problem IMO is the Unix/C model of naked char buffers for everything 2021-04-12T08:12:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: macOS, at least, has typed clipboards 2021-04-12T08:12:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: And you can request data of a certain type from the clipboard 2021-04-12T08:13:05Z GZJ0X_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-12T08:13:20Z moon-child: sounds like COM 2021-04-12T08:13:21Z White_Flame: pretty sure such things are in windows & linux, too 2021-04-12T08:13:25Z GZJ0X_ joined #lisp 2021-04-12T08:13:38Z White_Flame: but in the latter, the stars have to align through the bazaar 2021-04-12T08:13:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: In fact, macOS's biggest technical advantage is that it's _not_ based on the Unix/C model of text everywhere for the user-facing parts 2021-04-12T08:14:05Z GZJ0X_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-12T08:14:15Z White_Flame: yep 2021-04-12T08:14:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's based on the Objective-C runtime, which is basically a limited Smalltalk 2021-04-12T08:14:26Z GZJ0X_ joined #lisp 2021-04-12T08:20:13Z splittist: The most important syntax is the one I'm presenting to myself in my source code: did I just type one hundred million or a billion? Let me move my cursor over the number as I count... 100_000_000 makes it obvious to my most important reader - me (: 2021-04-12T08:22:04Z jdz: splittist: #.(truncate 1.0e8) 2021-04-12T08:22:42Z jdz: But yes, I sometimes struggle with numbers like these, too. 2021-04-12T08:23:33Z jdz: Usually by moving cursor to position 3 from the right, and then selecting 3 next digits left. 2021-04-12T08:23:35Z White_Flame: ##Eleventy_Billion 2021-04-12T08:23:51Z jdz: And hoping that counting the rest will not be a problem. 2021-04-12T08:24:31Z White_Flame: (ah, ## is already taken) 2021-04-12T08:25:56Z jdz: #r should be extended to accept #\" as the base, so then: #r"one hundred million billion". 2021-04-12T08:26:08Z moon-child: haha 2021-04-12T08:26:18Z rudi joined #lisp 2021-04-12T08:26:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: this is sort of interesting, in Emacs: (gui-get-selection 'CLIPBOARD (intern "text/html")) 2021-04-12T08:26:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: e.g. copy from LibreOffice Calc and then run that 2021-04-12T08:26:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: (gui-backend-get-selection 'CLIPBOARD 'TARGETS) shows all the possible target formats 2021-04-12T08:27:47Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-04-12T08:29:35Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-04-12T08:29:57Z Nilby: The natural way of representing numbers is of course recursive, so any linearization into bits is somewhat fake. 2021-04-12T08:30:29Z Nilby: and hard to type 2021-04-12T08:30:37Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-12T08:31:02Z moon-child: 'hard to type' I would rather type 7 than (S (S (S (S (S (S (S Z))))))) 2021-04-12T08:31:45Z Nilby: You 2021-04-12T08:32:12Z Nilby: You'd only have to type the last S, since you'd have the others hanging around; 2021-04-12T08:33:26Z Nilby: Exceopt in the very early or non-viable universes. 2021-04-12T08:35:28Z Nilby: Also 1e6 is quite composite. 2021-04-12T08:36:05Z f4r5 joined #lisp 2021-04-12T08:37:55Z mrchampion joined #lisp 2021-04-12T08:39:43Z Necktwi joined #lisp 2021-04-12T08:48:23Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-12T08:50:53Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-04-12T08:53:43Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-04-12T08:57:28Z jdz: The problem with "scientific notation" is that it only works for many trailing zeroes. 2021-04-12T08:57:53Z moon-child: right 2021-04-12T08:57:54Z no-defun-allowed: 1e#.1e100 2021-04-12T08:57:56Z moon-child: 1.273849e6 isn't better than 1273849 2021-04-12T08:58:54Z skapate joined #lisp 2021-04-12T09:00:03Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-12T09:01:20Z Nilby: And worse, they aren't really zeros in binary. 2021-04-12T09:02:47Z moon-child: well, they can be 2021-04-12T09:02:59Z moon-child: 100 is 1100100b--both of them have 2 trailing zeroes ;) 2021-04-12T09:04:31Z contrapunctus: Shinmera: it seems you changed the licenses for some of your projects from Artistic to zlib, but the accompanying web pages still name the former as the license. I figured you might want to update them, to avoid confusion. 2021-04-12T09:06:06Z ech joined #lisp 2021-04-12T09:06:29Z Shinmera: I might want to, but it's very low on my priority list. 2021-04-12T09:09:06Z GZJ0X_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-12T09:09:27Z GZJ0X_ joined #lisp 2021-04-12T09:12:50Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-04-12T09:13:36Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-12T09:13:50Z contrapunctus: Shinmera: is your website not in a repo I can make a PR for? 🤔 I couldn't find a repo. Or, wait, are those generated docs? 2021-04-12T09:14:04Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-04-12T09:15:01Z Shinmera: each repo has a docs/ folder. That's where the sources are for those. 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I'm not sure what you mean by import though. It's probably best to make it work without special code. 2021-04-12T10:59:35Z Demosthenex: Nilby: i'm trying to make it so that i can eval my buffer to load it into repl, and there are assumptions made about the path... so i'd like to wrap that in some code wwhich detects that i'm running in swank/sly/slime so i can address the mising data 2021-04-12T11:06:13Z conjunctive quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-04-12T11:07:40Z Nilby: Ah. There's lots of ways to address the issue. #+ conditionals are the simplest, but maybe most brittle. You could also use logical-pathname-translations, to make a path prefix, then say (load "my-stuff:foo.lisp") But, loading with asdf or quicklisp is probably the most usual. 2021-04-12T11:18:02Z Demosthenex: maybe i need to wrap my final code in a main function, and then only call that when i use --script 2021-04-12T11:30:41Z terpri joined #lisp 2021-04-12T11:37:33Z ech quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-12T11:39:53Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-12T11:40:11Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2021-04-12T11:40:41Z Demosthenex: is there a way i can say "call (main) only if called from sbcl --script, ie: not sly?" 2021-04-12T11:42:38Z Nilby: If you're using reader conditionals, you can use the negative: #-(or swank slynk) 2021-04-12T11:45:25Z Demosthenex: Nilby: cool, i'll try that 2021-04-12T11:45:26Z Nilby: But perhaps it's best to put whatever you want to do only interactively in separate function. 2021-04-12T11:46:27Z Nilby: Or what you want to do only in a script in separate file. 2021-04-12T11:54:43Z hendursaga quit (Quit: hendursaga) 2021-04-12T11:55:10Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-04-12T12:02:00Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-04-12T12:02:25Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-04-12T12:06:00Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-04-12T12:15:06Z ech joined #lisp 2021-04-12T12:15:52Z ech quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-12T12:24:47Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-04-12T12:25:11Z ech joined #lisp 2021-04-12T12:31:19Z eden joined #lisp 2021-04-12T12:42:05Z waleee-cl joined #lisp 2021-04-12T12:45:05Z APic quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-12T12:46:22Z supercoven joined #lisp 2021-04-12T12:46:22Z APic joined #lisp 2021-04-12T12:51:43Z JohnMS_WORK quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2021-04-12T13:05:41Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-12T13:06:08Z GZJ0X_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-12T13:06:28Z GZJ0X_ joined #lisp 2021-04-12T13:06:33Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-12T13:06:50Z xkapastel joined #lisp 2021-04-12T13:06:50Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-04-12T13:08:13Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2021-04-12T13:09:11Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2021-04-12T13:12:09Z GZJ0X_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-12T13:12:30Z GZJ0X_ joined #lisp 2021-04-12T13:13:04Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-12T13:15:49Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-04-12T13:19:10Z GZJ0X_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-12T13:19:31Z GZJ0X_ joined #lisp 2021-04-12T13:20:10Z GZJ0X_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-12T13:20:26Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2021-04-12T13:20:30Z GZJ0X_ joined #lisp 2021-04-12T13:21:51Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-12T13:22:10Z GZJ0X_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-12T13:22:31Z GZJ0X_ joined #lisp 2021-04-12T13:23:10Z GZJ0X_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-12T13:23:31Z GZJ0X_ joined #lisp 2021-04-12T13:24:09Z GZJ0X_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-12T13:24:29Z GZJ0X_ joined #lisp 2021-04-12T13:25:33Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-04-12T13:27:53Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-04-12T13:30:39Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2021-04-12T13:33:23Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-12T13:36:02Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2021-04-12T13:44:54Z APic quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-12T13:46:18Z rumbler31: Xach: I don't know if this would be useful to have in quicklisp, but I wrote a function to copy a single local project into the bundle directory. Problems that I see with adopting it are that I don't yet account for dependencies that might need to be pulled in from other local projects, and discovery of the bundled location on the user's behalf (which might be impossible) 2021-04-12T13:46:35Z rumbler31: the goal is to reduce the amount of code that makes it into the bundle, I don't want all of my local projects to get pulled in 2021-04-12T13:46:55Z APic joined #lisp 2021-04-12T13:47:14Z rumbler31: are you aware of any other problems with this approach that I might have missed? 2021-04-12T13:47:39Z Xach: rumbler31: how does it copy things? 2021-04-12T13:50:03Z rumbler31: you mean what library does it use? 2021-04-12T13:51:13Z APic quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-12T13:51:37Z rumbler31: I'm not in front of the code but I think I use asdf to find the named package locations, make pathnames for each of the .lisp and .asd files found in that directory to the location of the bundle/local-projects/myproject folder and does a uiop file copy 2021-04-12T13:51:54Z Xach: quicklisp does not depend on UIOP 2021-04-12T13:52:09Z rumbler31: I think I can just crib the code and write it myself 2021-04-12T13:52:20Z rumbler31: unless there are licensing issues 2021-04-12T13:52:55Z rumbler31: but isn't uiop brought in by asdf? 2021-04-12T13:53:09Z GZJ0X_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-12T13:53:42Z APic joined #lisp 2021-04-12T13:54:08Z Xach: Sure. But I don't put references to UIOP into quicklisp client code. 2021-04-12T13:54:18Z brandflake11 joined #lisp 2021-04-12T13:54:19Z amk quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-12T13:54:47Z Xach: rumbler31: I'd look at what ql-minitar does, I think, except copying from filesystem files rather than a tar stream. 2021-04-12T13:54:56Z amk joined #lisp 2021-04-12T13:56:26Z brandflake11: Hello all. Have you worked with extremely large datasets in lisp before? I'm trying to load in a huge list to use with lisp (800000+ lines), but it seems like sbcl freezes everytime I do that. Do I just have to wait for it to load in, even though sbcl says it's not taking any cpu? What has been your experience with large datasets in lisp? 2021-04-12T13:56:56Z Xach: brandflake11: sometimes the freeze is when it tries to print the result, not loading or working with it. one option is to set *print-length* to something like 100. 2021-04-12T13:57:21Z Xach: brandflake11: using too much memory results in a different symptom (landing in ldb or crashing outright) 2021-04-12T13:57:36Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-12T13:58:24Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-04-12T13:58:44Z brandflake11: Xach: I see. Let me test limiting *print-length* and see what happens 2021-04-12T13:58:48Z Nilby: I've used much bigger datasets and the important thing is set --dynamic-space-size high enough, and don't print it. 2021-04-12T13:58:48Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp 2021-04-12T13:59:24Z brandflake11: Nilby: I don't know anything about dynamic-space-size. Do you set this when loading sbcl, or can you set it with a global variable? 2021-04-12T13:59:35Z Xach: brandflake11: it's a command-line argument 2021-04-12T13:59:41Z Xach: brandflake11: cannot be adjusted at runtime 2021-04-12T13:59:57Z brandflake11: Xach: Okay, I'll look at the man page to see more about it 2021-04-12T14:00:13Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-12T14:00:43Z brandflake11: If *print-length* is nil, does that mean there is no limit? 2021-04-12T14:00:49Z phoe: yes 2021-04-12T14:00:53Z brandflake11: Thanks! 2021-04-12T14:01:26Z phoe: CLHS says, "If [*PRINT-LENGTH*] is false, there is no limit to the number of components printed." 2021-04-12T14:01:37Z docl_ is now known as docl 2021-04-12T14:01:53Z brandflake11: Oh, I didn't know the hyperspec had info about global variables that are important. 2021-04-12T14:02:24Z phoe: it's the full rendition of the standard, it must have all the variables 2021-04-12T14:02:26Z phoe: clhs *print-level* 2021-04-12T14:02:26Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_pr_lev.htm 2021-04-12T14:03:08Z brandflake11: Yep, that makes more sense. Thanks a lot all for the helpful advice! 2021-04-12T14:05:08Z Nilby: As you may know, a list isn't the best data structure for huge data sets. 2021-04-12T14:05:30Z zenandroid joined #lisp 2021-04-12T14:05:38Z phoe: Nilby: huh? 2021-04-12T14:06:04Z beach: Nilby: That totally depends on the operations that are expected. 2021-04-12T14:06:46Z Nilby: Yes. Like anything except traversing it in order. 2021-04-12T14:06:59Z phoe: Nilby: I mean, what's the context? 2021-04-12T14:07:04Z Nilby: Also takes too much space. 2021-04-12T14:07:18Z brandflake11: Nilby: I took a .csv file and converted it into one big list of lists to then parse out later as OSC commands. At this point in my lisp journey, it seemed like the simplest option. 2021-04-12T14:08:03Z brandflake11: But I'm still having trouble getting the list to even load. I need to try to dynamic-space-size option 2021-04-12T14:08:21Z phoe: oh, I see the context now 2021-04-12T14:08:46Z phoe: brandflake11: how does it hang? if you're using slime/sly, check the inferior-lisp buffer 2021-04-12T14:08:59Z phoe: maybe you need more heap to be able to load this much at once, if you get an error about heap exhausted in there 2021-04-12T14:09:21Z brandflake11: I use a (with-open-file) function to load the file with just the list in it 2021-04-12T14:09:35Z beach: brandflake11: 800000 lines doesn't sound like much, depending on what a "line" is of course. 2021-04-12T14:09:36Z brandflake11: I'll check that buffer 2021-04-12T14:09:38Z phoe: yes, but how do you run Lisp? with slime/sly from emacs? just from the terminal? 2021-04-12T14:09:47Z brandflake11: With slime+emacs 2021-04-12T14:10:02Z phoe: in the former case, you can get the REPL to "hang" if the inferior lisp crashes hard 2021-04-12T14:10:06Z phoe: e.g. due to OOM 2021-04-12T14:10:48Z brandflake11: phoe: You are so right, I get this "Heap exhausted during garbage collection: 48 bytes available, 64 requested. " 2021-04-12T14:11:26Z jdz: Also it might be a good idea to process lines as they are parsed from the file (say by providing a callback function to run on each parsed line) instead of doing it in two stages. 2021-04-12T14:11:58Z brandflake11: I don't know how to mitigate the heap exhausted error! 2021-04-12T14:11:59Z jdz: Another option is to use two threads with a size-limited "line buffer". 2021-04-12T14:13:11Z brandflake11: jdz: Well, the list is a dataset with times of events and the events themselves. So, I want to be able to replay these events in order 2021-04-12T14:13:44Z jdz: And in the file they may be out-of-order? 2021-04-12T14:13:54Z brandflake11: jdz: No they are all in order 2021-04-12T14:14:17Z jonatack quit (Quit: jonatack) 2021-04-12T14:14:51Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-04-12T14:15:25Z phoe: brandflake11: run SBCL with a larger heap, if you have enough RAM 2021-04-12T14:16:11Z brandflake11: phoe: What command line option can you use to do that? 2021-04-12T14:16:25Z phoe: $ sbcl --dynamic-space-size $((8 * 1024)) 2021-04-12T14:16:31Z phoe: that'll give you a 8 GB heap 2021-04-12T14:16:34Z zenandroid left #lisp 2021-04-12T14:16:43Z brandflake11: phoe: Oh it's the same one, thank you and sorry for my lack of understanding! 2021-04-12T14:17:07Z jdz: I use a couple tricks when doing this on SBCL: a) if the text does not have any unicode characters coercing each line into SIMPLE-BASE-STRING, and b) if there are fields that may have duplicate (string) values longer than 8 characters then using a hash-table to de-duplicate them. 2021-04-12T14:17:51Z brandflake11: When doing this option with slime, do you just set the option in emacs's inferior-lisp-program variable? 2021-04-12T14:18:12Z jdz: brandflake11: Run slime a prefix argument. 2021-04-12T14:18:32Z jdz: I.e., C-u M-x slime 2021-04-12T14:18:53Z phoe: brandflake11: my elisp variable, inferior-lisp-program, is "ros dynamic-space-size=8192 -Q run" 2021-04-12T14:18:59Z phoe: so it sure takes multiple arguments 2021-04-12T14:19:06Z brandflake11: Oh nice. 2021-04-12T14:19:19Z phoe: (the only difference is that it runs SBCL via roswell) 2021-04-12T14:19:59Z Nilby: I just tested reading a 800+k line 217.3M csv with the naive list reader with --dynamic-space-size 4096 and it was fine. (The slow part is guessing the column data types) 2021-04-12T14:20:43Z brandflake11: I just set it to "/usr/bin/sbcl --dynamic-space-size 2048". I'll see what happens 2021-04-12T14:20:57Z brandflake11: I just set inferior-lisp-program I mean 2021-04-12T14:21:00Z Guest89487 joined #lisp 2021-04-12T14:21:12Z phoe: should work 2021-04-12T14:21:31Z phoe: increase it further if 2GB is still too low 2021-04-12T14:21:45Z phoe: (you might need to download more RAM if you start swapping though) 2021-04-12T14:22:13Z brandflake11: lol, I have a fast internet connection, downloading more ram should be no problem XD 2021-04-12T14:23:54Z brandflake11: Where can you check the heap size at of sbcl while it's running? 2021-04-12T14:23:54Z Guest89487 left #lisp 2021-04-12T14:24:01Z brandflake11: Will it just take more ram? 2021-04-12T14:24:17Z phoe: SB-EXT:DYNAMIC-SPACE-SIZE 2021-04-12T14:24:24Z phoe: it won't auto-expand, unlike e.g. CCL 2021-04-12T14:25:20Z brandflake11: I get DYNAMIC-SPACE-SIZE is unbound, so I'm guessing setting it where I did with the emacs variable didn't work 2021-04-12T14:25:35Z phoe: oh! it's a function 2021-04-12T14:25:50Z phoe: (SB-EXT:DYNAMIC-SPACE-SIZE) ;=> 8589934592 2021-04-12T14:26:10Z brandflake11: Okay, so here is what I got 3223322624 2021-04-12T14:26:15Z Nilby: also (room) 2021-04-12T14:27:06Z brandflake11: From room: Dynamic space usage is: 153,945,456 bytes. 2021-04-12T14:27:14Z brandflake11: That's not right, it should be 3GB 2021-04-12T14:27:20Z phoe: that's the used space 2021-04-12T14:27:24Z phoe: not the free one 2021-04-12T14:27:46Z phoe: but, 3223322624 === (* 1024 1024 3074) 2021-04-12T14:27:54Z phoe: which is just a wee bit above 3gb 2021-04-12T14:28:00Z brandflake11: Oh okay, so it did work. 2021-04-12T14:28:28Z brandflake11: Oh man, I'm glad you all helped me with this. I would not have been able to figure this out on my own 2021-04-12T14:28:49Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-12T14:30:23Z brandflake11: I was really worried lisp just wasn't able to handle huge datasets, but i'm glad that it was just a matter of increasing the ram allowed to it 2021-04-12T14:30:36Z leeren joined #lisp 2021-04-12T14:30:48Z Xach: Lisp can handle all kinds of nutty stuff 2021-04-12T14:30:56Z beach: brandflake11: Either way, it would not be a language limitation, but a limitation on specific implementations. 2021-04-12T14:31:27Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-04-12T14:31:31Z ldbeth: good evening 2021-04-12T14:31:42Z brandflake11: beach: I always forget about that too. I love how it is just a standard 2021-04-12T14:32:03Z beach: brandflake11: Also, it is not RAM that you are assigning, it is just heap size. If you have virtual memory, that would work too, but more slowly. 2021-04-12T14:32:04Z leeren quit (Client Quit) 2021-04-12T14:32:15Z brandflake11: beach: Oh, that makes more sense 2021-04-12T14:32:28Z Nilby: There is even hope on the horizon that sbcl will be able to increase it's own memory. 2021-04-12T14:32:40Z phoe: yes, some of that heap can (and likely will) get swapped to disk by the OS 2021-04-12T14:32:47Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-04-12T14:33:09Z phoe: so you can have a 32G heap on 8G of RAM, if that is what you want and need 2021-04-12T14:33:49Z brandflake11: I'll have to give a shoutout to ssds then. They are a lifesaver 2021-04-12T14:34:08Z ldbeth: is it possible to transparently store lisp datum on disk via mmap 2021-04-12T14:34:34Z brandflake11: 6gb wasn't enough yet for the list, so I'm trying 7 now! 2021-04-12T14:35:46Z beach: ldbeth: Probably not. You would somehow have to teach the garbage collector where to find it. Plus, the way a lisp object is represented is not standardized. 2021-04-12T14:37:18Z Nilby: Acutally there's a lisp mmaped databse 2021-04-12T14:37:37Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-04-12T14:37:39Z brandflake11: I just got the database list assigned as a variable. You guys all rock. Thank you so much for the help and teaching me something 2021-04-12T14:37:55Z brandflake11: It's taking 9gb of space. Yikes! 2021-04-12T14:38:06Z Nilby: It's not totally transparent though 2021-04-12T14:38:06Z brandflake11: *memory 2021-04-12T14:38:10Z ldbeth: a list? :) 2021-04-12T14:38:35Z Nilby: brandflake11: What was the size of your file? 2021-04-12T14:38:46Z ldbeth: it it likly to save some memory if it is an array 2021-04-12T14:38:48Z brandflake11: The file itself as just text was about 800mb 2021-04-12T14:39:15Z brandflake11: That's pretty big for a plain text file isn't it? 2021-04-12T14:39:28Z ramHero quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-12T14:39:37Z jcowan: back to numeric representations: in Scheme, #e forces a float-style syntax to be implemented as an exact number: thus #e1e20 is the integer 1^20, and #e1.5 is 3/2. 2021-04-12T14:40:50Z jcowan: Note that this is not just a coercion: 1e400 is normally infinity, but #e1e400 is the integer 10^400. 2021-04-12T14:41:14Z phoe: I don't think there's a standard CL way other than #.(* 1 (expt 1 20)) for integers and #.(rational ...) for ratios 2021-04-12T14:41:52Z ldbeth: make-load-form something 2021-04-12T14:42:16Z Nilby: 9gb seems like something is taking too much seeing for a 800mb file 2021-04-12T14:42:28Z jcowan: s/1^20/10^20 2021-04-12T14:43:20Z ldbeth: Yes, ideally it should be around 1GB if applied some clever encoding 2021-04-12T14:44:11Z brandflake11: Nilby: maybe I did something wrong. I got it all loaded in though, so that's what I'm happy about 2021-04-12T14:45:09Z andrei-n quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-12T14:45:10Z ldbeth: for example, a trie can significantly reduce the space of string data 2021-04-12T14:45:29Z andrei-n joined #lisp 2021-04-12T14:45:42Z ramHero joined #lisp 2021-04-12T14:46:42Z brandflake11: Maybe I should just use cl-csv instead now. I couldn't get that to load in the .csv file (I didn't know about checking *inferior-lisp* buffer to see that the heap was too low) so I turned the .csv into a list of lists using bash sed. 2021-04-12T14:46:50Z brandflake11: That's when I came here to ask for help 2021-04-12T14:47:33Z brandflake11: Because that was also too big for the heap size 2021-04-12T14:48:32Z beach: brandflake11: What does your data look like? 2021-04-12T14:48:49Z beach: brandflake11: Numbers? Strings? Characters? 2021-04-12T14:48:55Z brandflake11: ("0.000000" "1" "68" "92.45.54.178" "10.50.209.134" "" "" "" "" "" "116" "UDP") 2021-04-12T14:49:01Z brandflake11: A whole bunch of this ^ 2021-04-12T14:50:05Z beach: Is there a lot of duplication? 2021-04-12T14:50:56Z brandflake11: No, each event is important. 2021-04-12T14:51:22Z beach: For example, if you have lots of empty strings, then the reader will allocate a separate empty string for each one. That could become quite wasteful. 2021-04-12T14:51:40Z [mark] joined #lisp 2021-04-12T14:51:41Z brandflake11: beach: Oh, I wouldn't know how to mitigate that though 2021-04-12T14:51:46Z ted_wroclaw joined #lisp 2021-04-12T14:51:57Z brandflake11: beach: Can you just turn "" into nil? 2021-04-12T14:53:11Z beach: You could do that, but if you do it after the thing is read, then you still need as much space, at least temporarily. 2021-04-12T14:55:39Z heisig joined #lisp 2021-04-12T14:57:46Z beach: brandflake11: When I asked about duplication, I didn't necessarily mean the full list in your example, but also individual elements such as "1" or "10.50.209.134". 2021-04-12T14:58:10Z brandflake11: beach: Oh, yeah, in that case there is a lot of duplication 2021-04-12T14:58:37Z beach: Then, if those items are immutable, a hash table will do wonders. 2021-04-12T14:59:01Z ted_wroclaw quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2021-04-12T14:59:17Z brandflake11: beach: I'll look into hash tables. I have never used a hash table before. It's not hard to grasp is it? 2021-04-12T14:59:23Z phoe: not at all 2021-04-12T14:59:35Z phoe: ever heard of a data structure called a map? 2021-04-12T14:59:35Z beach: brandflake11: Wow, is Common Lisp your first programming language? 2021-04-12T14:59:56Z brandflake11: phoe: No I've never heard of a map either. 2021-04-12T15:00:15Z beach: brandflake11: Does your file consist of a single huge list, where each element is a list as in the example above? 2021-04-12T15:01:35Z brandflake11: beach: It's pretty much my first serious programming language. I am from the Music and Composition and Linux world, where I learned pure data as my first language. I learned a little bit of C++ on my own time last year, and then discovered common music, which brought me into common lisp. I love the syntax and realtime feeling of common lisp, so I've been learning it now to do other stuff 2021-04-12T15:01:56Z phoe: brandflake11: oh, nice! 2021-04-12T15:02:23Z brandflake11: beach: Yes, exactly, it's just a big list of those lists I showed you 2021-04-12T15:02:35Z phoe: wrt books, you might want to read either Gentle or Practical Common Lisp; I'd recommend that you start with the former, and if you find it too gentle indeed, then switch to PCL 2021-04-12T15:02:41Z phoe: minion: tell brandflake11 about gentle 2021-04-12T15:02:42Z minion: brandflake11: look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 2021-04-12T15:02:46Z phoe: minion: tell brandflake11 about pcl 2021-04-12T15:02:46Z minion: brandflake11: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 2021-04-12T15:03:12Z brandflake11: phoe: Oh yeah, I've gotten to chapter 3 of practical common lisp (not very far I know). I need to keep working at it 2021-04-12T15:03:33Z phoe: personally I think that the second chapter of PCL is the worst 2021-04-12T15:03:38Z brandflake11: Actually people on here recommend I read Practical Common Lisp. It was all thanks to this IRC channel! 2021-04-12T15:03:39Z beach: brandflake11: Then, what I would do would be to not read the entire thing with a single READ, but to read one element list (as in your example) at a time, then process it by checking whether an element is in a hash table, and if so, reuse it. 2021-04-12T15:03:52Z beach: brandflake11: Your memory use would drop dramatically. 2021-04-12T15:04:06Z phoe: oh wait, it's chapter 3 2021-04-12T15:04:45Z brandflake11: beach: Thank you I really appreciate your suggestion. I'll look into doing that to reduce memory 2021-04-12T15:04:48Z phoe: in my opinion, PCL chapter 3 goes straight into business without explaining that the first practical chapter with disc DB is likely not meant to be fully understood straight away and is rather meant to give the reader an overall feeling of how to work with the language 2021-04-12T15:05:14Z phoe: it's the only explanation I see for "chapter 3 is where we make a database, and chapter 4 is where we actually start explaining what we've done" 2021-04-12T15:05:44Z brandflake11: phoe: I stopped reading it because I was more interested in making music with Common Lisp. I've been reading Heinrich Taube's "Notes from the MetaLevel" at the moment instead to get more music making done 2021-04-12T15:06:15Z brandflake11: phoe: Thank you though, I plan on keep going with it. I want to be able to do cool stuff with lisp 2021-04-12T15:06:38Z phoe: oooh, I see 2021-04-12T15:07:03Z phoe: does this book use common music? 2021-04-12T15:07:16Z brandflake11: Yes, the old Common Music 2.0 that still used common lisp 2021-04-12T15:07:24Z phoe: TIL! 2021-04-12T15:07:29Z phoe memorizes 2021-04-12T15:08:06Z brandflake11: phoe: There is a version of Common Music that integrates a realtime midi out using incudine. That's the version I'm using now 2021-04-12T15:08:47Z brandflake11: I'm able to use emacs as my music composition tool, which is really cool and spit out midi through jack to my synths and other toosl 2021-04-12T15:08:59Z brandflake11: C-t toosl 2021-04-12T15:15:48Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-04-12T15:16:52Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-12T15:18:05Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-12T15:20:03Z brandflake11 left #lisp 2021-04-12T15:20:07Z brandflake11 joined #lisp 2021-04-12T15:25:43Z sp41 joined #lisp 2021-04-12T15:30:15Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp 2021-04-12T15:32:16Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-04-12T15:33:09Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-12T15:36:33Z APic quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-12T15:39:53Z madage joined #lisp 2021-04-12T15:43:48Z APic joined #lisp 2021-04-12T15:49:52Z leeren joined #lisp 2021-04-12T15:50:21Z kevingal: I've had this in my bookmarks for ages, been meaning to try it out: https://nunotrocado.com/software/cl-collider-tutorial-1.html 2021-04-12T15:50:28Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-12T15:50:34Z kevingal: Might be interesting for anyone who wants to make music with CL. 2021-04-12T15:51:05Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-12T15:51:09Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-12T15:51:35Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-04-12T15:51:47Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-12T15:52:40Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-04-12T15:53:54Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-12T15:54:28Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-12T15:55:48Z madage joined #lisp 2021-04-12T15:57:19Z rumbler31_: Xach: you got a link to ql-minitar? google is not helping me 2021-04-12T15:58:31Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2021-04-12T15:59:32Z Nilby: ql-minitar is inside the quicklisp client, so ~/quicklisp/quicklisp/minitar.lisp 2021-04-12T16:03:34Z abhixec joined #lisp 2021-04-12T16:03:58Z long4mud quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-12T16:06:27Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-04-12T16:07:14Z rumbler31_: kevingal: check this out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqwuIfl-G1w&t=189s 2021-04-12T16:07:19Z rumbler31_: and all his other videos 2021-04-12T16:12:49Z rumbler31_: nilby: oh thanks 2021-04-12T16:15:38Z [mark] quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-04-12T16:19:38Z long4mud joined #lisp 2021-04-12T16:20:01Z simplegauss quit (Quit: Bye) 2021-04-12T16:20:01Z sveit quit (Quit: Bye) 2021-04-12T16:21:31Z sveit joined #lisp 2021-04-12T16:22:00Z simplegauss joined #lisp 2021-04-12T16:25:01Z m0xya quit (Quit: Goodbye! 73s) 2021-04-12T16:29:32Z kevingal: rumbler31_: super cool! 2021-04-12T16:30:57Z attila_lendvai_ joined #lisp 2021-04-12T16:31:32Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-12T16:33:41Z ebrasca` joined #lisp 2021-04-12T16:34:29Z ebrasca quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-12T16:35:01Z attila_lendvai_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-12T16:35:19Z gitgood joined #lisp 2021-04-12T16:35:36Z attila_lendvai_ joined #lisp 2021-04-12T16:43:43Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-12T16:48:28Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-04-12T16:54:30Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-04-12T17:05:56Z ebrasca` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-12T17:06:30Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2021-04-12T17:06:43Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-12T17:06:56Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2021-04-12T17:07:14Z ldbeth quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-12T17:10:45Z hypercube joined #lisp 2021-04-12T17:12:01Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-04-12T17:14:05Z tophullyte joined #lisp 2021-04-12T17:25:57Z ech quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-12T17:40:25Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-04-12T17:41:16Z attila_lendvai_ is now known as attila_lendvai 2021-04-12T17:41:35Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2021-04-12T17:41:35Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-04-12T17:53:23Z wsinatra quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-04-12T17:54:53Z CL-ASHOK joined #lisp 2021-04-12T17:55:01Z CL-ASHOK: Quick Qn 2021-04-12T17:55:29Z CL-ASHOK: How do I "minimise" emacs terminal? I'm trying to run a Hunchentoot process, but want to return to the terminal (this is on a VM) 2021-04-12T17:56:57Z Xach: CL-ASHOK: i use screen for that 2021-04-12T17:58:04Z CL-ASHOK: @xach: what is that? (I'm currently remote into a Google VM with the non-gui emacs) 2021-04-12T17:58:20Z srandon111 joined #lisp 2021-04-12T18:01:22Z _0x1d3 joined #lisp 2021-04-12T18:02:35Z Bike: it's a terminal multiplexer program https://www.gnu.org/software/screen/ 2021-04-12T18:03:03Z CL-ASHOK: Thanks! 2021-04-12T18:04:01Z Bike: it's not as sophisticated, but you could also suspend the emacs process with probably control z 2021-04-12T18:07:15Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2021-04-12T18:07:31Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-12T18:08:11Z CL-ASHOK: but would that stop Hunchentoot? 2021-04-12T18:09:29Z Bike: i don't remember 2021-04-12T18:10:01Z CL-ASHOK: No worries, thanks for your help. 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ZZZzzz…) 2021-04-12T19:18:15Z jcowan: NOTHING CAN STOP HUNCHENTOOT 2021-04-12T19:18:45Z eden quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-12T19:19:33Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-12T19:20:59Z supercoven quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-12T19:22:28Z kini quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-04-12T19:22:36Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-04-12T19:22:49Z krkini joined #lisp 2021-04-12T19:24:10Z jurov joined #lisp 2021-04-12T19:25:34Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-04-12T19:26:53Z jurov_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-12T19:28:01Z akkad is now known as ober 2021-04-12T19:31:45Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-04-12T19:33:23Z curtosis joined #lisp 2021-04-12T19:35:19Z hypercube quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-12T19:36:45Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-12T19:37:35Z Codaraxis__ joined #lisp 2021-04-12T19:40:53Z Codaraxis_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-12T19:47:50Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-04-12T19:50:42Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2021-04-12T19:51:16Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-12T19:54:17Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-12T19:54:18Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2021-04-12T19:55:58Z nij joined #lisp 2021-04-12T19:56:42Z nij: Hello, is there any functional "package manager" (or rather, system manager) for common lisp? I'm thinking of it as an analogue of straight.el (for elisp). 2021-04-12T19:57:03Z gabc: Well there's quicklisp 2021-04-12T19:57:11Z gabc: And it's quite functional 2021-04-12T19:57:18Z nij: "functional" in that a declarative file can reproduce all systems 2021-04-12T19:58:11Z gabc: yeah I made a cheap pun of "functional" that "it does its function well" 2021-04-12T19:58:35Z Shinmera: nij: what does it mean to 'reproduce all systems'? Download them? Load them into the image? 2021-04-12T19:58:47Z nij: Shinmera: just to download them. 2021-04-12T19:59:03Z nij: For example, straight.el lets you do this : (el-patch :type git :host github :repo "raxod502/el-patch") 2021-04-12T19:59:30Z Shinmera: just put (ql:quickload '(a b c)) into a file then or is that not declarative enough 2021-04-12T19:59:41Z nij: With this in a declarative file, which is run by the package/system manager, the corresponding package/system will be fetched. 2021-04-12T20:00:09Z nij: Shinmera: yes, that's what I do now. 2021-04-12T20:00:22Z nij: However, can I specify the versions and recipes of the packages/systems? 2021-04-12T20:01:05Z Shinmera: No, quicklisp packages snappshots of the ecosystem so that all the libraries are versioned as one thing at once, since usually systems do not specify versioned dependencies. 2021-04-12T20:01:06Z nij: E.g. I might want ql to fetch the system from a specific repo (maybe even local!).. and I might want a specific version/commit. 2021-04-12T20:02:01Z nij: Shinmera: "systems do not specify versioned dependencies"... really?! 2021-04-12T20:02:04Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-12T20:02:05Z Shinmera: yes. 2021-04-12T20:02:11Z nij: Uh oh.. 2021-04-12T20:02:22Z Shinmera: ASDF cannot deal with knowing multiple versions of the same system at once. It'll only accept one. 2021-04-12T20:02:22Z waleee-cl: nij: if you put it in ~/common-lisp or the appropriate subdir of ~/quicklisp it will be preferred 2021-04-12T20:02:38Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-12T20:02:39Z waleee-cl: (before the version in quicklisp) 2021-04-12T20:02:42Z Shinmera: So you'll have to either manage the system registry manually, or replace ASDF wholesale. 2021-04-12T20:03:55Z dtman34_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-12T20:04:00Z Shinmera: I want to do the latter at some point and have some fun ideas for it, but am wholly lacking in time lately. 2021-04-12T20:04:01Z nij: waleee-cl: yeah.. but that doesn't feel functional and declarative :-( 2021-04-12T20:04:05Z long4mud quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-12T20:04:57Z waleee-cl: there's https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/clpm/clpm but that still uses quicklisp atm 2021-04-12T20:05:26Z waleee-cl: also not declerative since you need to run a separate binary 2021-04-12T20:05:35Z hypercube joined #lisp 2021-04-12T20:05:41Z nij: What if A1 and A2 depend on A, and suddenly A has a new version. 2021-04-12T20:05:53Z nij: Say A1 follows and depends on the new A, but A2 does not.. 2021-04-12T20:06:10Z waleee-cl: go for guix then? 2021-04-12T20:06:23Z long4mud joined #lisp 2021-04-12T20:06:28Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-04-12T20:06:57Z nij: Tried (trying..). It's very hard. 2021-04-12T20:07:18Z Shinmera: nij: then either it breaks at compile time and quicklisp won't release a new dist until it's fixed, or it breaks at runtime and users will complain until it's fixed. 2021-04-12T20:07:25Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-12T20:07:38Z Shinmera: usually the former. 2021-04-12T20:09:10Z nij: Wow. So suppose A is what many things depend on.. say Alexandria, and say one day A upgrades. 2021-04-12T20:09:25Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-12T20:09:29Z nij: If one single system doesn't upgrade accordingly, quicklisp won't accept the newer Alexandria? 2021-04-12T20:09:44Z Shinmera: no, quicklisp won't do a release at all. 2021-04-12T20:09:56Z nij: :-O !!! 2021-04-12T20:10:02Z nij: This is so wrong. (sorry if it's offending..) 2021-04-12T20:10:11Z Shinmera: that's just like, your opinion, man. 2021-04-12T20:10:16Z gabc: nij: well it fixes the dependency problem 2021-04-12T20:10:37Z nij: yeah it's just my opinion.. 2021-04-12T20:10:44Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-04-12T20:11:20Z Lycurgus: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/clpm/clpm Supports HTTPS, what is that saying about ql ? 2021-04-12T20:11:51Z Shinmera: ql doesn't depend on anything, but clpm depends on a lot of things. 2021-04-12T20:11:57Z Shinmera: ql has a much harder target than clpm. 2021-04-12T20:12:19Z Lycurgus: so it's sayin it can depend? 2021-04-12T20:12:25Z jeosol joined #lisp 2021-04-12T20:12:32Z nij: Well.. I guess all sorts of package managers suffer from the same issues - except things like nix or guix. 2021-04-12T20:13:05Z nij: So this model has been working for years. I shouldn't say it's so wrong then :-( My apology. 2021-04-12T20:13:15Z Lycurgus: (where ql don't) 2021-04-12T20:13:35Z Shinmera: nij: It's not great, but it's the best Xach can do with the ecosystem we have (particularly ASDF) 2021-04-12T20:14:20Z Bike: multiple versions of the same library can't really exist in the same image, anyway 2021-04-12T20:14:34Z Shinmera: yes but the build system can select the best version to actually load. 2021-04-12T20:14:36Z Bike: i guess if they wanted to they could do things with packages 2021-04-12T20:14:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: I also like that this model encourages people to not make breaking changes :) 2021-04-12T20:14:57Z Shinmera: that would already go a long way to remedying this mess. 2021-04-12T20:15:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: My personal policy is to fork and rename rather than push a breaking version 2021-04-12T20:15:29Z Shinmera: phoe: ping about your verbose issue 2021-04-12T20:15:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: And, I think Rich Hickey's critique of semver is really on the mark here 2021-04-12T20:15:48Z Shinmera: semver does suck. 2021-04-12T20:15:51Z nij: fiddlerwoaroof: what's his critique about? 2021-04-12T20:15:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: In the JS world, there's so much useless time spent fixing breaking version changes 2021-04-12T20:16:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: Very few breaking changes are actually worth it, if you account for the cost to your users 2021-04-12T20:16:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: Especially for libraries 2021-04-12T20:16:25Z nij: Why not using guix/nix then? 2021-04-12T20:16:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: Because those don't actually solve the problem 2021-04-12T20:16:54Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-04-12T20:16:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: When I pin a guix/nix version, I'm opting out of bug-fixes and security fixes 2021-04-12T20:17:30Z nij: Well.. you can pin an interval of versions.. 2021-04-12T20:17:56Z nij: And in the classical model as well.. say in the case of ql, if no releases is given, bug/security fixes are out of reach too. 2021-04-12T20:18:23Z nij: ;; interval of versions ==> I retract! I'm not actually sure about this. 2021-04-12T20:19:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: What I mean is just that, if library authors rename rather than introduce breaking changes, updating libraries becomes relatively safe 2021-04-12T20:19:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: And breaking changes become reportable bugs 2021-04-12T20:20:33Z Shinmera: This assumes that packages are actually self-contained and don't have changes that influence other parts 2021-04-12T20:20:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: What do you mean by "packages"? 2021-04-12T20:21:02Z mfiano: oh the whole accretion vs concretion talk? 2021-04-12T20:21:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think this is the spec talk 2021-04-12T20:21:15Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: lisp packages? 2021-04-12T20:21:26Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2021-04-12T20:21:38Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: a system can affect other parts than the packages it declares and modifies though. 2021-04-12T20:21:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: Cool, yeah: two systems modifying the same Lisp package seems like a bad practice 2021-04-12T20:22:17Z mfiano: Depends what you mean by modify. 2021-04-12T20:22:30Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-12T20:22:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, actually implementing this completely ranges from difficult to impossible, but I think it's useful to approach distributing libraries with this mindset 2021-04-12T20:23:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think Rich Hickey's ideal world involves something like a spec/test registry inside your library manager (QL, or such) that rejects updates that cause existing tests/specs to fail 2021-04-12T20:24:09Z Shinmera: mfiano: for instance systems can offer generic functions to extend, or hook lists that another system might latch on to. Just making two packages won't resolve the conflict, then. 2021-04-12T20:24:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, quicklisp would refuse to update a package unless all the pre-existing tests past, as well as any newly added tests 2021-04-12T20:24:40Z Shinmera: Anyway, the point being that it's not always that easy to allow multiple versions at once. 2021-04-12T20:25:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: I sort of think of the goal is to make the idea of "versioning" obsolete 2021-04-12T20:25:30Z Necktwi quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-04-12T20:25:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: Every change to the code of an existing symbol is backwards compatible and backwards incompatible changes force a rename 2021-04-12T20:25:40Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-04-12T20:26:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: mfiano: thinking about it, the talk also talks a lot about accretion 2021-04-12T20:26:31Z nij: which talk? 2021-04-12T20:27:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: There's a summary and link here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19076444 2021-04-12T20:27:16Z mfiano: yes, hickey's stance on semver talked a lot about "accretion" and "concretion" 2021-04-12T20:27:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: "any breaking change (i.e. a major version bump in semver) might as well be considered another product/package/lib and should better choose another name instead of pretending to be the same thing with a bumped number." 2021-04-12T20:27:17Z tom-bsd joined #lisp 2021-04-12T20:27:29Z mfiano: I don't agree with a lot of it, but he makes _some_ good points 2021-04-12T20:28:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: Whether or not this is practical, it's extremely appealing for someone who's dayjob is all JS/React stuff 2021-04-12T20:29:15Z Odin-: Practical is usually the first thing out the door when computer ideas evolve. 2021-04-12T20:29:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: Also, I think people who force themselves to always keep their dependencies up to date find themselves rejecting libraries that exhibit a pattern of breaking changes 2021-04-12T20:29:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: I know I do 2021-04-12T20:30:04Z mfiano: My solution it the Lisp curse. I rarely find libraries that are production ready/suitable for my needs, so I write my own :x 2021-04-12T20:30:16Z mfiano: is8 2021-04-12T20:30:19Z mfiano: is* 2021-04-12T20:30:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: mfiano: I generally try to fork and PR 2021-04-12T20:30:26Z no-defun-allowed: Well spooked my prototypes 2021-04-12T20:30:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: or just fork 2021-04-12T20:30:53Z nij: mfiano: respect 2021-04-12T20:31:06Z mfiano: Not good at understanding someone else's thought processes with heravy macros and protocols that I would have never designed. 2021-04-12T20:31:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, the Lisp curse isn't really a lisp-only thing 2021-04-12T20:31:30Z mfiano: Lisp is tyoo flexible in that it has a larger burden for onboarding new collaborators due to that 2021-04-12T20:31:32Z nij: mfiano: how do you do versioning of your own code? 2021-04-12T20:32:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: A lot of people I've worked with are really unwilling to take a dependency because of the ongoing maintenance cost the dependency's lifecycle imposes 2021-04-12T20:32:15Z dtman34 joined #lisp 2021-04-12T20:32:30Z tom-bsd: Hey guys. I'm on FreeBSD trying to install some quicklisp libraries with SBCL and it gives me errors like `Can't create directory /usr/local/lib/common-lisp/alexandria/sbclfasl/`. It's probably a permissions problem but isn't there a way to install these libraries to my home? 2021-04-12T20:32:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: mfiano: yeah, although I tend to find that just forcing myself to fix the problem I find in a library really helps 2021-04-12T20:32:42Z mfiano: For my own stuff, I haven't ever got to what the script iddies call 0.1.0 2021-04-12T20:32:50Z mfiano: So i odn't have any users 2021-04-12T20:33:15Z Odin-: The "every tiny task a dependency" mentality is quite recent, too. 2021-04-12T20:33:49Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-12T20:33:56Z Odin-: So its absence can't really be a Lisp-specific thing. 2021-04-12T20:34:10Z Odin-: At the very least it should effect Fortran, too. :p 2021-04-12T20:34:42Z mfiano: My software is always pre-0.1.x, use at your own risk. Mostly because gamedev and support libraries are hard. 2021-04-12T20:34:54Z Odin-: tom-bsd: I thought the default way of install Quicklisp did that... 2021-04-12T20:35:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: As far as I can tell, "NIH syndrome" cuts both ways 2021-04-12T20:35:32Z mfiano: I recently moved them to my own private host and stoped releasing to QL 2021-04-12T20:35:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's a choice between an ongoing maintenance cost for in-house tools, or an ongoing maintenance cost whenever some random person decides to update the tool 2021-04-12T20:36:05Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-04-12T20:36:34Z nij: mfiano: ?! How about the old versions? 2021-04-12T20:36:46Z nij: What if some systems depend on your codes? 2021-04-12T20:36:58Z mfiano: What is released is still pulled by Xach each month 2021-04-12T20:39:06Z tom-bsd: Odin-: quicklisp is installed locally but loading libraries complains about making the aforementioned folder 2021-04-12T20:39:11Z no-defun-allowed: Imagine complaining about flexibility and being able to do things yourself, this meme made by "who the fuck actually believes in the Lisp 'curse' lmao" gang 2021-04-12T20:39:16Z mfiano: That was requersted by Xach and phoe iirc. I don't mind I guess, but I'm not interesting in developing for others. My code is MIT and anyone can use/fork do whatever, and I don't have to "fix" it for their strange use cases 2021-04-12T20:39:52Z andrei-n quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-12T20:40:01Z no-defun-allowed: Man, your head is haunted, you have bats in your belfry! 2021-04-12T20:41:24Z dtman34 quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in) 2021-04-12T20:41:41Z nij: mfiano: can i still see your code online? 2021-04-12T20:41:43Z mfiano: I liked it best when I wrote code before code on the internet was a thing. Nobody likes my code, but I do, so problem solved. 2021-04-12T20:41:53Z Odin-: no-defun-allowed: That reads like something Max Stirner would have written. 2021-04-12T20:42:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: The lisp curse thing is Mark Tarver, right? 2021-04-12T20:42:20Z no-defun-allowed: Odin-: Nope, never heard of this Max Stirner :) 2021-04-12T20:42:29Z no-defun-allowed: fiddlerwoaroof: W*nestock 2021-04-12T20:42:31Z nij: mfiano: do you work in tech? How do you stick with just cl? 2021-04-12T20:42:44Z mfiano: nij: yes, git.mfiano.net 2021-04-12T20:43:00Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-12T20:43:14Z Odin-: no-defun-allowed: I'll just put it down to endless spooks, then. 2021-04-12T20:43:18Z mfiano: yes usually CL, though not currently, but i heard a clojure contract is coming my way soon. 2021-04-12T20:43:46Z no-defun-allowed: Odin-: Duped egoists? In _my_ #lisp? It's more likely than you think. 2021-04-12T20:44:22Z Odin-: Ah, so it _was_ sarcasm. I'll need to recalibrate my meter, then. 2021-04-12T20:44:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: no 2021-04-12T20:44:46Z mfiano: Maybe one day when I actually make something usable, complete with offline documentation, manuals, books, etc, I'll publicize my stuff. 2021-04-12T20:44:46Z no-defun-allowed hoped the :) gave it away 2021-04-12T20:44:46Z moon-child: I don't think the 'lisp curse' thing is _incorrect_, strictly, it just reflects a perversion of sensibilities and morals 2021-04-12T20:44:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: no-defun-allowed: but it was based on "The Bipolar Lisp Programmer" by Tarver 2021-04-12T20:44:54Z mfiano: But I am pretty far from that 2021-04-12T20:45:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: My read on Tarver is that he bought into stuff thinking that it would mean he would get free work on Qi/Shen and then got really annoyed to discover that using the GPL didn't mean that people would be interested in his project 2021-04-12T20:46:09Z nij: :golden-utils <3 2021-04-12T20:46:32Z no-defun-allowed: My own (actual) argument is that for any progress to be made any time soon, you do in fact need to produce half-assed prototypes, and only from there is it reasonable to start talking about a common design based on what information you have. 2021-04-12T20:46:35Z mfiano: Rich Hickey did make one point that has always stuck with me. Most programmers, and especially Lispers, are too focused on code, and not the artifact. Does the code matter if it doesn't provide something innovative or to fill a niche in computing? 2021-04-12T20:46:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think this also is behind the whole Lisp Curse thing:. 2021-04-12T20:47:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't find that sort of point all that interesting 2021-04-12T20:47:19Z nij: mfiano: besides of your :golden-utils, do you use other utils often? 2021-04-12T20:47:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: 90% of the code I write I write because it solves a problem I or the company I work for has 2021-04-12T20:47:52Z mfiano: nij: Just that, which includes alexandria re-exported 2021-04-12T20:48:15Z no-defun-allowed: So the faster I can crank those out the better. But it's also falsely applied when two projects have similar but incompatible design goals, which annoys me further. 2021-04-12T20:48:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think treating "filling a niche in computing" this way has a tendency to create projects that never actually finish 2021-04-12T20:49:05Z nij: mfiano: since 2008? Holly's cow! 2021-04-12T20:49:32Z nij: mfiano: what if alexandria upgrades itself one day? 2021-04-12T20:49:41Z no-defun-allowed: For example, one very clever HN poster complained people made too many array processing libraries. To pick two arbitrarily: one uses lazy arrays which you must manually force computation of. One is feature-compatible with numpy. The latter precludes the former, so it is nonsense to say they are redundant. 2021-04-12T20:50:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: nij: alexandria is probably the last library to do that 2021-04-12T20:50:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: It also has a versioned package scheme 2021-04-12T20:50:17Z Odin-: no-defun-allowed: "There is more than one programming language! How wasteful!" 2021-04-12T20:50:18Z nij: fiddlerwoaroof: why? 2021-04-12T20:50:26Z nij: I mean "the last".. 2021-04-12T20:50:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: Because the developers of alexandria are really picky about the code they accept 2021-04-12T20:51:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: The breaking changes, afaict, are all in ALEXANDRIA-2 2021-04-12T20:51:30Z mfiano: fiddlerwoaroof: I am perfectly fine with that. I program to learn, not to create. But I'm not focused on designing new macrology usecases, MOP, or other meta-programming. My current project is roughly 40kloc, and all my brain power is whiteboarding and cranking out code I need for the artifact, not how I can bend the language with more yaks 2021-04-12T20:51:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: :) 2021-04-12T20:52:23Z tom-bsd quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-04-12T20:52:26Z mfiano: I would be doing it in any other language if some dude 20 years ago didn't rip Python out of my hands to show me that CL was better at RAD 2021-04-12T20:52:55Z no-defun-allowed: And I think that to make a library which supports both, you would need people aware of compiling either. But if APL implementations weren't doing lazy computation behind the back, or we picked something completely new, I doubt the magical utopia where everyone does one library per concept would have ever discovered that it might be useful. 2021-04-12T20:53:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I've never understood the desire to have _a_ array programming library 2021-04-12T20:53:34Z no-defun-allowed: Odin-: That continues to the "wheels in the head" point, so on and so forth. 2021-04-12T20:53:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: or _the one true_ web server 2021-04-12T20:53:41Z mfiano: alexandria, picky? 2021-04-12T20:53:48Z mfiano: I submitted some code to that project 2021-04-12T20:53:54Z mfiano: Haven't had an isuee 2021-04-12T20:54:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm just going by the README: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/alexandria/alexandria 2021-04-12T20:54:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: "picky" is probably the wrong word, too negative 2021-04-12T20:55:10Z mfiano: One of the last changes I made was quite a few years ago, admittedly 2021-04-12T20:55:24Z no-defun-allowed: (Then for the actually hard stuff, e.g. compiling pattern matching, you still have few people attempt to do it well, and so there is still approximately 1 pattern matcher used in CL. I'm just remembering what I wrote in the book.) 2021-04-12T20:55:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: The developers of alexandria seem generally committed to a no-backwards-incompatible changes philosophy 2021-04-12T20:55:47Z mfiano: It was rewriting LERP to use the numerically stable method (at the cost of an extra multiply, which smart compilers could fuse it, so the precision is well worth it) 2021-04-12T20:55:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: no-defun-allowed: yeah, trivia 2021-04-12T20:56:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've always had mixed feelings about it 2021-04-12T20:57:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: Pattern matching, like CASE and friends, is a static dispatch technique, and I generally try to use dynamic-dispatch wherever possible :) 2021-04-12T20:58:13Z Odin-: no-defun-allowed: I'm just always a little interested in how people seem to simultaneously consider software development to follow completely different rules from other productive activity and expect it to function exactly the same. 2021-04-12T20:58:32Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-12T20:58:52Z no-defun-allowed: Sure, I am not making a comment on pattern matching though, but there are a few methods to compile it, and they require some effort to make. You can make the language bend as much as you want, but the algorithm has to get in there somehow. 2021-04-12T20:58:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: This might be a sign that I learned to program from 90s books about OOP, but I have an aversion to conditionals that can't be extended without modifying the code 2021-04-12T20:58:58Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-12T20:59:03Z mfiano: eric normand gave a good talk last week about the wrong direction software development is taking, and i have agreed with that for a good 10 years 2021-04-12T20:59:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah 2021-04-12T20:59:31Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-12T21:00:08Z nij quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.2)) 2021-04-12T21:00:18Z no-defun-allowed: Odin-: Absolutely. 2021-04-12T21:00:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: mfiano: one really clarifying thing for me about Lisps/FP/etc. was listening to the episode of Cognitect's podcast featuring Matthew Flatt (of Racket fame) 2021-04-12T21:01:27Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-12T21:01:28Z hiroaki quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-12T21:01:34Z mfiano: I am not familiar with it, but given the number of talks I've seen on FP and the like, and my short-term meory, that isn't surprising 2021-04-12T21:01:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: At one point the host just sort of asserted the Clojure dogma `data > functions > macros` and Matthew Flatt responded, "actually I think functions > macros > data" 2021-04-12T21:02:26Z mood_ is now known as mood 2021-04-12T21:02:27Z mfiano: I don't see the correlation 2021-04-12T21:03:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: Clojurians like to say "try to solve a problem by representing it with data, then use functions if that doesn't work and finally use macros" 2021-04-12T21:03:17Z vv8 joined #lisp 2021-04-12T21:03:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've come to think that one should almost always prefer functions and macros to data representations (especially raw data literals in code) 2021-04-12T21:04:11Z mfiano: I tend to write functions always, with the ocassional macro function. 2021-04-12T21:04:11Z no-defun-allowed: I found this excellent rule engine called EVAL, you should totally use it with...data yes that's data 2021-04-12T21:04:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: My experience is that a codebase built around domain-specific abstractions ends up being much more maintainable long-run, than a code base built around data 2021-04-12T21:05:12Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-12T21:05:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: Because when you need to make an architecture change, you don't have to spend as much time tracking down data dependencies, you just re-implement the abstractions 2021-04-12T21:06:04Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-12T21:06:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, I've come to realize that Clojure just isn't designed for me 2021-04-12T21:06:19Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-04-12T21:06:20Z Jesin joined #lisp 2021-04-12T21:06:29Z mfiano: Maintainable code comes from understanding the domain. How you use the constructs available matters less. 2021-04-12T21:06:48Z mfiano: and this is the point Normand was trying to hit last week 2021-04-12T21:07:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't think that's really true: your understanding of the domain should be reflected in the language you build to write your software 2021-04-12T21:07:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: Domain knowledge should, almost always, be reified into the constructs of your programming language so you can program in the language of your domain 2021-04-12T21:08:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: Not following this principle creates huge messes for the people that maintain the code 2021-04-12T21:09:21Z Odin-: No Turing tarpits for you, then? 2021-04-12T21:09:21Z no-defun-allowed: Something rubs me the wrong way about using maps and sequences for everything. Maybe I don't do the kinds of problems where those are fine. 2021-04-12T21:09:52Z mfiano: The point is general purpose abstractions, like design patterns as they are called in other languages, are just usually the result of one caring too much about the code and not how it should be structured for your domain. Maintainability just sort of falls out from a deep understanding of your field/and lots of whiteboarding. 2021-04-12T21:10:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: The biggest issue is you create an implicit dependency between line 40 with {:a 1 :b 2} and line 80 with {:a 1 :b 2} 2021-04-12T21:10:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: Then you refactor line 40 and nothing tells you line 80 is broken 2021-04-12T21:10:21Z no-defun-allowed: (Though for it to be "everything", we should define #{} to be 0, #{#{}} to be 1, so on and so forth.) 2021-04-12T21:11:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: mfiano: I agree with that, I just think saying "how you use the concepts available matters less" misses the point: understanding the domain is not enough, you need to write code that reflects your understanding of the domain 2021-04-12T21:11:46Z mfiano: There are whole periods of weeks where I can't write code because I'm still understanding the math, logic and how it all permutes to be written in a maintainable fastion. POD, mixins, design patterns...none of that matters until the domain is well understood 2021-04-12T21:12:10Z Odin-: What's POD short for in this context? 2021-04-12T21:12:11Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-12T21:12:21Z mfiano: plain old data 2021-04-12T21:12:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I'm sort of the opposite: I can't understand the domain without having a repl open to mess around with 2021-04-12T21:12:38Z Odin-: Ah. 2021-04-12T21:12:40Z Odin-: That old myth. 2021-04-12T21:12:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: I learn the domain by writing code in it 2021-04-12T21:13:41Z mfiano: I've had to work on serious projects professionally where we couldn't afford to make these types of mistakes that arise from "just coding" 2021-04-12T21:13:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: Most of the code doesn't actually make it to production 2021-04-12T21:13:59Z mfiano: Software development to me has always been moreso about thinking than coding. 2021-04-12T21:14:01Z Odin-: There are still people who think there's really something called "plain text" in computers. 2021-04-12T21:15:01Z Odin-: And that processors actually work with numbers. (Shocking, right?) 2021-04-12T21:15:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's just that I find iterating with prototypes designed to explore one corner of the search space ends up being more efficient than trying to think through the domain 2021-04-12T21:15:15Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-12T21:15:38Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-12T21:16:25Z TMA: I have an experience that is in the middle between fiddlerwoaroof and mfiano. there is the exploration to learn something of the domain, which is usually ill specified and therefore not available with a priori reasoning alone 2021-04-12T21:17:14Z TMA: but there is also the need to pause and whiteboard, to build the model in the head prior to coding 2021-04-12T21:17:31Z mfiano: I'm also old and jadad, so can probably ignore my opinions :) 2021-04-12T21:17:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: TMA: yeah, when talking about these things I find that I occasionally express a position that sounds more extreme than it actually is 2021-04-12T21:18:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: I do spend time whiteboarding/learning, I just have also had the experience of a project where we spent weeks planning only to discover that what we thought was possible wasn't 2021-04-12T21:18:43Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-12T21:18:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: Within like 30 minutes of attempting to execute 2021-04-12T21:19:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: Or, in one case, a team insisting on like a month of onboarding training before I was allowed to write code 2021-04-12T21:19:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: Most of which was basically useless because I didn't really understand the context until I tried to change the code 2021-04-12T21:20:50Z mfiano: I could write a whole book on debunking the ECS paradigm some time...and I probably will. It amazes me how people flock to shiny things that just shift the shift the complexity around (and add new issues because they hadn't considering their design may require a new architectural model coupled to the domain. 2021-04-12T21:21:06Z mfiano: ) 2021-04-12T21:21:50Z TMA: mfiano: I will refrain from ignoring your opinions, if I may. There is certainly much to be learned, even if there are minor corrections to be applied. 2021-04-12T21:22:09Z no-defun-allowed: I still need to write my implementation of "ECS" using CLOS for serial parts just to spite someone. But I forgot who I'm supposed to be spiting. 2021-04-12T21:22:38Z mfiano: EC couples with CLOS better than ECS 2021-04-12T21:22:51Z srandon111 quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-04-12T21:22:54Z Shinmera wonders if he could find a way to use no-defun-allowed's time for his own projects by coercing her into spiting him for something 2021-04-12T21:23:33Z mfiano: A true ECS is impossible anyway, so can only go so far before you have stateful code 2021-04-12T21:24:21Z no-defun-allowed: Sorry, I have a waiting list of about three months, if you wouldn't mind writing your name and project down here then I'll get back to you then 2021-04-12T21:24:51Z mfiano: what are you working on no-defun-allowed ? 2021-04-12T21:25:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: no-defun-allowed: it sounds to me like you're just saying we have to make you angry enough 2021-04-12T21:26:14Z nij joined #lisp 2021-04-12T21:26:43Z nij: If I get a cl system from guix, how do I load it? QL:QUICKLOAD doesn't look at those paths by default after all. 2021-04-12T21:27:15Z no-defun-allowed: mfiano: Right now, I just finished the first part of redoing my regular expression compiler, which was to use (and debug) someone else's technique for submatching with a DFA. Next is to add a protocol for letting the client provide optimisations (e.g. optimising constant string searching). Then I have to look after two lock-free hash table implementations. 2021-04-12T21:27:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: nij: you have to figure out how guix expects you to configure ASDF's registry 2021-04-12T21:27:36Z mfiano: no-defun-allowed: Did I not see a post a couple weeks ago stating you were not contributing to open source anymore or something of the sort? 2021-04-12T21:28:21Z no-defun-allowed: I announced I am taking a break from Netfarm because, wow, I'm actually too fed up with people there to bother improving their lives in any meaningful way. But now I also have a paper on that to edit. 2021-04-12T21:28:41Z mfiano: Is people of Netfarm, CL people? 2021-04-12T21:28:43Z no-defun-allowed: mfiano: Yes, now I've decided to work on other things because otherwise I have too much spare time :) 2021-04-12T21:28:46Z heisig quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-12T21:29:06Z no-defun-allowed: No, not CL people. The reasons why are off-topic for #lisp. 2021-04-12T21:29:06Z mfiano: The only mention I ever heard of it is from you, so I'm curious who these people are that annoyed you. Getting the torches ready 2021-04-12T21:30:26Z mfiano: Ok then. Well one thing I know all too well is breaks are good. I would never be able to commit to one project and stay sane. 2021-04-12T21:32:02Z mfiano: Mostly because I have to figure out hard problems on my own that require subconscious thinking 2021-04-12T21:32:20Z mfiano: If anyone wants to join me to polish up my game engine, I wouldn't mind 2021-04-12T21:32:34Z nij: fiddlerwoaroof: I guess I should ask #guix then. 2021-04-12T21:34:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: yeah, my guess is that reading guix expressions for something like nyxt might be helpful too 2021-04-12T21:34:29Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-12T21:34:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: my guess is that it involves `guix environment` but, unfortunately, I can't use guix because of their stance on mac support/free software 2021-04-12T21:35:38Z no-defun-allowed: In short, despite many differences of opinion on design, only one CL person has come close to saying that all my work is worthless. 2021-04-12T21:35:59Z nij: fiddlerwoaroof: thanks :) 2021-04-12T21:36:43Z mfiano: no-defun-allowed: all your work was worthless? i see a logic flaw already 2021-04-12T21:37:07Z nij left #lisp 2021-04-12T21:39:16Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 28.0.50)) 2021-04-12T21:40:29Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-04-12T21:42:02Z kpoeck quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-12T21:44:40Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-12T21:46:03Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-04-12T21:47:53Z lowryder joined #lisp 2021-04-12T21:47:55Z Shinmera: no-defun-allowed: I've had people almost word for word say all my libraries are worthless. The good thing is that doesn't actually matter. 2021-04-12T21:49:28Z no-defun-allowed: Shinmera: That was a slight simplification, they said any free software was worthless. Normally I'd be laughing, but no one there disagreed there. On the other hand, they could have been laughing internally as well. 2021-04-12T21:50:27Z mfiano: All my work is worthless, in the fact that it isn't usable by others, is broken until I finish it, and is unknown by others...but I still think it is very _worthwhile_ to work on given my goals of bettering myself and the hopeful one day it will at the very least be usable to me (and others would be a bonus) 2021-04-12T21:51:41Z no-defun-allowed: Pretty sure there is no network stack (and/or operating system) without any open-source components, including proprietary ones, so I wonder how they didn't contradict themself by being able to write that. 2021-04-12T21:53:06Z no-defun-allowed: What I read was straight slander, and there's no point discussing that in itself, but that it was taken remotely seriously is telling. 2021-04-12T21:55:00Z Shinmera: Yeah, unfortunately even obviously off crazy talk can still really get to ya. 2021-04-12T21:58:01Z IPmonger quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5+deb4 - https://znc.in) 2021-04-12T21:58:15Z no-defun-allowed: My thought process went something like "Here's my audience I suppose, if anyone would immediately be interested in e.g collaborative filtering for moderation it'd be them, and they're now saying no open-source program has done anything good for society. And half my time these days is spent cleaning up code and writing documentation. How kind of you!" 2021-04-12T21:58:21Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2021-04-12T22:11:59Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-12T22:16:59Z pve_ joined #lisp 2021-04-12T22:20:06Z pve quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-12T22:22:37Z hendursaga quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-12T22:22:40Z pve_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-04-12T22:23:03Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-04-12T22:25:41Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-12T22:25:58Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-12T22:28:03Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-12T22:28:29Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-04-12T22:29:26Z dim: fatal error encountered in SBCL pid 26098 pthread 0x7000003c0000: SIGABRT received. 2021-04-12T22:30:06Z phoe: dim: which SBCL version? 2021-04-12T22:30:18Z dim: that seems to happen a lot with SBCL 2.1.3, here loading list-of 2021-04-12T22:30:28Z phoe: huh, I remember an issue with SIGABRT mentioned somewhere in #sbcl 2021-04-12T22:30:29Z dim: it seems that CCL also just got a sigabort 2021-04-12T22:30:42Z phoe: oh? now that's interesting 2021-04-12T22:31:29Z dim: ccl64 -e '(ql:quickload "pgloader")' to reproduce 2021-04-12T22:31:51Z dim: I just cleaned my cache, too, so that might be related (in that it's trying to compile something?) 2021-04-12T22:32:07Z dim: I have CCL 1.12 for information 2021-04-12T22:32:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: This sounds like an FFI issue 2021-04-12T22:32:59Z dim: anyway I wanted to hack in CL and/or pgloader this vacations, but I guess I'll do something else instead :/ 2021-04-12T22:33:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't have that problem in 2.1.0 2021-04-12T22:34:18Z scymtym: SIGABRT is often from uncaught exceptions in C++ code 2021-04-12T22:34:54Z gitgood quit (Quit: Probably away to do something really awesome) 2021-04-12T22:36:21Z dim: can I install sbcl 2.1.0 with brew easily? 2021-04-12T22:36:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: dim: I'm not sure, I'm using nix 2021-04-12T22:37:06Z klltkr joined #lisp 2021-04-12T22:37:33Z dim: yeah doesn't look like it 2021-04-12T22:38:33Z dim: time to see if ECL can load pgloader these days 2021-04-12T22:39:06Z phoe: dim: actually it does seem so? 2021-04-12T22:39:13Z phoe: brew install sbcl@2.1.0 2021-04-12T22:39:27Z phoe: and/or brew switch sbcl 2.1.0 2021-04-12T22:39:41Z dim: Error: No available formula or cask with the name "sbcl@2.1.0". 2021-04-12T22:39:49Z dim: yeah that's when you have it already locally perhaps 2021-04-12T22:39:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: dim: what are you using? I'm on an x86-64 MBP, my M1 sees a lot more SIGABRTs with sbcl 2021-04-12T22:40:13Z dim: it's still an x64 and Catalina here, didn't make the jump to BigSur yet 2021-04-12T22:40:15Z phoe: huh, seems like you'd need to use an old formula or something... bleh 2021-04-12T22:40:18Z dim: I'm not sure I want to ;-) 2021-04-12T22:40:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: Big Sur is, in my experience, much better than Catalina 2021-04-12T22:41:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: I sort of skipped over Mojave and Catalina 2021-04-12T22:41:18Z dim: yeah except if you use/develop anything that doesn't know how to process EINTR when doing open(2), like Postgres and most of the source code I work with 2021-04-12T22:41:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: I see 2021-04-12T22:41:50Z dim: and except if you have hardware that doesn't support BigSur yet, too (I'm still waiting for drivers updates for an audio interface) 2021-04-12T22:42:02Z dim: but anyway, ECL is compiling, slowly, but making progress 2021-04-12T22:44:28Z jeosol quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-04-12T22:44:32Z hjudt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-12T22:46:04Z g0d_shatter quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-12T22:47:03Z dim: Condition of type: SIMPLE-ERROR ; Unable to create pipe C ; library explanation: Too many open files. 2021-04-12T22:47:15Z dim: okay I'm done with hacking in CL for a while 2021-04-12T22:47:30Z dim: I had a nice shot tonight, won't happen again anytime soon if I must first fix all those things 2021-04-12T22:47:55Z dim: gn friends, and thanks for all the help you could provide, much appreciated as always! 2021-04-12T22:49:08Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-04-12T22:52:17Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-04-12T22:55:31Z abhixec quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-12T22:56:15Z curtosis quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. 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NixOS seems to have a work-around.. but I haven't found any for guix - https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/blob/master/pkgs/development/lisp-modules/quicklisp.sh 2021-04-13T03:29:04Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2021-04-13T03:32:20Z bilegeek quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-13T03:32:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: morning, beach! 2021-04-13T03:36:11Z abhixec quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-04-13T03:40:57Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-04-13T03:48:08Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-13T03:52:30Z kini quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-13T03:52:47Z Codaraxis_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-13T03:53:47Z kini joined #lisp 2021-04-13T03:55:30Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-04-13T03:57:05Z xlei joined #lisp 2021-04-13T04:00:10Z mrchampion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-13T04:03:07Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2021-04-13T04:16:27Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-04-13T04:18:10Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-04-13T04:25:13Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-04-13T04:25:19Z curtosis[away] joined #lisp 2021-04-13T04:25:24Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-04-13T04:26:49Z [mark] joined #lisp 2021-04-13T04:45:01Z curtosis[away] quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. 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https://common-lisp.net/project/erlang-in-lisp/ 2021-04-13T07:16:10Z rain3: ok I think I found it git clone http://common-lisp.net/project/erlang-in-lisp/git/ 2021-04-13T07:16:16Z lukego: nij: I'm not a Guix'er but I use ql2nix and that works well for me jfyi 2021-04-13T07:18:30Z midre joined #lisp 2021-04-13T07:20:47Z beach quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-13T07:21:04Z beach joined #lisp 2021-04-13T07:27:40Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-04-13T07:29:17Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-13T07:31:34Z nullman quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-13T07:32:12Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-13T07:33:34Z nullman joined #lisp 2021-04-13T07:35:16Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-13T07:37:02Z johnjay joined #lisp 2021-04-13T07:37:26Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-04-13T07:37:56Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-04-13T07:38:38Z varjag: is there special wisdom in intercepting socket-errors in postmodern's with-connection instead of letting the application handle it? 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2021-04-13T09:31:03Z plaisanterie joined #lisp 2021-04-13T09:38:06Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-13T09:40:00Z dim: (let ((pgloader-deps (mapcar #'ql-dist:system-file-name 2021-04-13T09:40:00Z dim: (flatten 2021-04-13T09:40:00Z dim: (ql-dist:dependency-tree "pgloader")))) 2021-04-13T09:40:00Z dim: (depends-on-cffi (ql:who-depends-on 'cffi))) 2021-04-13T09:40:01Z dim: (intersection pgloader-deps depends-on-cffi :test #'string-equal)) 2021-04-13T09:40:04Z dim: sorry for multi-line posting 2021-04-13T09:40:13Z dim: I guess I was too happy to be able to do it ;-) 2021-04-13T09:40:50Z flip214: dim: you already use ql-dist:dependency-tree 2021-04-13T09:42:58Z heisig joined #lisp 2021-04-13T09:47:24Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-13T09:48:26Z snits joined #lisp 2021-04-13T09:49:12Z lowryder joined #lisp 2021-04-13T10:00:06Z vegansbane6963 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-04-13T10:03:05Z amk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-13T10:07:36Z amk joined #lisp 2021-04-13T10:08:51Z dim: yeah, it still is a game of whack-a-mole and I'm not there yet 2021-04-13T10:10:55Z amk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-13T10:11:02Z amk joined #lisp 2021-04-13T10:14:13Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-13T10:14:35Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-04-13T10:14:35Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2021-04-13T10:14:35Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-04-13T10:18:31Z dim: okay, and now it fails for yet another reason 2021-04-13T10:18:45Z dim: no CL during vacations for me it seems :/ 2021-04-13T10:19:01Z dim: for the very curious: Error while trying to load definition for system jna from pathname jar:file:///usr/local/Cellar/abcl/1.8.0/libexec/abcl-contrib.jar!/mvn/jna.asd: 2021-04-13T10:19:11Z dim: that's during Retry loading FASL for #. 2021-04-13T10:20:44Z dim: (and the previous offender that required CFFI was cl+ssl, which is needed for pgloader by direct dependencies qmynd, drakma, sqlite, mssql, and quri) 2021-04-13T10:26:17Z Stanley00 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-13T10:31:22Z kini quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-13T10:32:37Z kini joined #lisp 2021-04-13T10:36:15Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-04-13T10:42:52Z CrashTestDummy joined #lisp 2021-04-13T10:42:54Z CrashTestDummy quit (Client Quit) 2021-04-13T10:43:42Z CrashTestDummy joined #lisp 2021-04-13T10:46:13Z CrashTestDummy quit (Client Quit) 2021-04-13T10:46:37Z CrashTestDummy joined #lisp 2021-04-13T10:47:42Z CrashTestDummy left #lisp 2021-04-13T10:48:10Z nij joined #lisp 2021-04-13T10:48:11Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-13T10:48:32Z CrashTestDummy joined #lisp 2021-04-13T10:48:50Z jeosol quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-04-13T10:49:30Z nij: fiddlerwoaroof: I watched the talk you mentioned yesterday. Thanks :) 2021-04-13T10:50:06Z nij: And I understand why guix/nix doesn't "really" solve the problem. 2021-04-13T10:52:50Z nij: I wonder if in guix we can make a software depends on multiple versions of a dependency, and call each function with name and the version they belong to. 2021-04-13T10:52:54Z Xach: dim: sometimes cffi is in defsystem-depends-on which complicates things a little 2021-04-13T10:53:58Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-04-13T10:59:50Z Major_Biscuit joined #lisp 2021-04-13T11:02:25Z igemnace quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-13T11:10:53Z dim: Xach: I managed to get a list of systems to avoid in :depends-on (using #-abcl) so that I could load pgloader in there, so that's good 2021-04-13T11:11:27Z dim: not good enough to load pgloader, though, so, no there yet, and running out of patience and time... gonna play with the kids instead 2021-04-13T11:11:27Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-13T11:11:38Z amb007 joined #lisp 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Or I have to `git clone` it manually to my ~/quicklisp? 2021-04-13T13:30:52Z Xach: nij: you must run git clone manually. 2021-04-13T13:31:10Z Xach: or, you could do it automatically, if you write the code to automate it! 2021-04-13T13:33:38Z Major_Biscuit joined #lisp 2021-04-13T13:38:48Z xlei quit (Quit: ZNC - https://znc.in) 2021-04-13T13:39:05Z curtosis quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. 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Stash the reader macro for " and replace it with one that peeks to see if the next character is also quote. If so, read the quote and return a unique empty string; if not, call the stashed macro. The only thing this breaks is if you try to use eq(l) on an empty string. 2021-04-13T15:11:34Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2021-04-13T15:12:55Z beach: That's an interesting solution. 2021-04-13T15:13:53Z klltkr quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-13T15:15:12Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-13T15:16:46Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-13T15:17:32Z klltkr joined #lisp 2021-04-13T15:18:03Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-04-13T15:21:21Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-04-13T15:22:21Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2021-04-13T15:24:24Z nij: clpm could accidentally eat my files xD 2021-04-13T15:24:32Z nij: lemme take a look at roswell 2021-04-13T15:24:32Z aartaka_d quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-13T15:24:42Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-04-13T15:24:42Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-04-13T15:26:56Z kini quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-13T15:28:06Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2021-04-13T15:28:15Z kini joined #lisp 2021-04-13T15:28:44Z bilegeek quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-13T15:29:19Z long4mud quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-04-13T15:33:12Z curtosis joined #lisp 2021-04-13T15:34:15Z OlCe joined #lisp 2021-04-13T15:34:18Z ramHero joined #lisp 2021-04-13T15:35:56Z nij left #lisp 2021-04-13T15:41:45Z attila_lendvai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-13T15:42:07Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-04-13T15:42:30Z ramHero quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-13T15:43:19Z ramHero joined #lisp 2021-04-13T15:47:23Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-04-13T15:48:26Z a0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-13T15:48:53Z yitzi quit (Quit: yitzi) 2021-04-13T15:50:49Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-13T15:51:02Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-04-13T15:52:33Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-13T15:53:37Z aindilis` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-13T15:55:15Z aindilis joined #lisp 2021-04-13T16:00:53Z curtosis quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2021-04-13T16:28:07Z kini quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-13T16:29:24Z kini joined #lisp 2021-04-13T16:31:41Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-04-13T16:33:13Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-13T16:33:37Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-04-13T16:37:11Z DHARMAKAYA joined #lisp 2021-04-13T16:42:06Z OlCe quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-13T16:44:50Z dbotton: does anyone know of a "dictionary" or "thesaurus" for CL terms? 2021-04-13T16:45:13Z Bike: other than the clhs glossary? not that i can think of 2021-04-13T16:45:31Z dbotton: so let's say I wanted to say "member function" it would give the equivalent clos term 2021-04-13T16:45:51Z dbotton: ok 2021-04-13T16:45:54Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-04-13T16:46:05Z Bike: oh, like for other kinds of jargon. yeah, i don't know anything like that. also i'm not sure there's any real equivalent to member functions? 2021-04-13T16:46:29Z dbotton: well it could give the aprox version or explain why not 2021-04-13T16:48:25Z luis: dbotton: is this close to what you're after? https://norvig.com/python-lisp.html 2021-04-13T16:48:25Z Bike: i suppose so. 2021-04-13T16:49:25Z dbotton: not really 2021-04-13T16:50:14Z dbotton: It is easy to look up method or generic function and then learn what that means in CL 2021-04-13T16:50:47Z dbotton: neither of which is the same as in most other languages with the same terms 2021-04-13T16:51:34Z dbotton: but if someone was coming from another language could explain the approximate mapping or why things are different 2021-04-13T16:52:17Z dbotton: I think would be helpful, maybe will try and work on. Would certainly help me be come more specific with my lisp terminology 2021-04-13T16:52:26Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2021-04-13T16:52:41Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-13T16:53:18Z Bike: let's see, i suppose the main things that trip people up are CLOS, the call by value semantics, and the condition system 2021-04-13T16:53:59Z dbotton: those are main offenders yes, but when you drill down there are more more 2021-04-13T16:54:09Z dbotton: "slots" 2021-04-13T16:54:22Z Bike: ah, i suppose that is different. 2021-04-13T16:54:26Z Bike: probably packages also. 2021-04-13T16:55:05Z dbotton: also some comparisons between templates, macros, generics (ada), etc 2021-04-13T16:55:19Z dbotton: the list is fairly long 2021-04-13T16:55:40Z phoe: dbotton: you can emulate member functions with packages, in a way 2021-04-13T16:56:02Z phoe: (defclass foo:myclass ...) (defmethod foo:method1 ((myclass myclass) ...) ...) ... 2021-04-13T16:56:23Z dbotton: CL is itself the raw material of computer "language" and that lends itself to a different lingo in many ways 2021-04-13T16:56:26Z phoe: while exporting foo:myclass and foo:method1 2021-04-13T16:56:49Z phoe: but, yeah, that is not going to work very well for people who come from C++/Java/whatever single inheritance language there is 2021-04-13T16:56:52Z dbotton: of course can, that is what I mean by raw material 2021-04-13T16:57:19Z phoe: there's CLOS basics that need to be understood before becoming somewhat able with it, and the two CLOS chapters of PCL work decent with that 2021-04-13T16:57:20Z nij joined #lisp 2021-04-13T16:57:40Z nij: What could be wrong? I quickload a cl system (on guix), and this error shows up 2021-04-13T16:57:41Z nij: https://bpa.st/WCXQ 2021-04-13T16:58:13Z phoe: nij: ffi-types-unix.c:14:10: fatal error: lfp.h: No such file or directory 2021-04-13T16:58:14Z luis: lfp.h: No such file or directory seems pretty clear! 2021-04-13T16:58:17Z Bike: nij: you're missing libfixposix, i think? 2021-04-13T16:58:24Z phoe: iolib has a FFI dependen-- yes 2021-04-13T16:58:40Z tophullyte joined #lisp 2021-04-13T16:59:21Z nij: O..k.. I need to find a way to get that header file on guix then.. 2021-04-13T16:59:37Z Bike: https://guix.gnu.org/packages/libfixposix-0.4.3/ 2021-04-13T16:59:41Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-04-13T17:00:21Z nij: just curious.. how do you know that it's supposed in libfixposix? 2021-04-13T17:00:21Z norsxa quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-04-13T17:00:41Z phoe: https://github.com/sionescu/iolib 2021-04-13T17:00:44Z phoe: "IOlib requires a C library named LibFixPOSIX - https://github.com/sionescu/libfixposix - and its headers in order to compile." 2021-04-13T17:00:45Z Bike: because i already knew iolib depended on libfixposix, and "lfp" is then an obvious initialism 2021-04-13T17:01:08Z nij: cool. lemme try 2021-04-13T17:03:41Z DHARMAKAYA quit (Quit: Turning off a portion of this simulation.) 2021-04-13T17:05:18Z dhil quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-13T17:05:52Z Bike: maybe it owuld be possible for iolib to be a little clearer about it, though 2021-04-13T17:06:18Z nij: Yes, it works, and gives me another error - 2021-04-13T17:06:23Z nij: Unable to load foreign library (LIBFIXPOSIX). Error opening shared object "libfixposix.so": libfixposix.so: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory. 2021-04-13T17:06:42Z nij: I guess I'd have to teach sbcl (or cffi?) where to find the dynamical lib. 2021-04-13T17:06:56Z Bike: sbcl literally just calls dlopen 2021-04-13T17:07:12Z Bike: oh, if you just installed it you might need to call ldconfig or something 2021-04-13T17:07:36Z nij: I'm afraid it's more complicated on guix.. 2021-04-13T17:08:01Z Bike: so i've heard. but what i mean is that it's the normal posix tools that are failing to work, rather than anything in lisp. 2021-04-13T17:08:06Z nij: Since the dynamic libraries aren't installed in the usual global path. 2021-04-13T17:08:16Z Bike: you could put a bypass in lisp, ofc 2021-04-13T17:08:25Z nij: bypass? 2021-04-13T17:08:56Z Bike: https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/cffi-manual.html#g_t_002aforeign_002dlibrary_002ddirectories_002a cffi lets you manually define where libraries are 2021-04-13T17:10:12Z nij: Yeah.. it's time for me to face this thread and follow it - and hopefully it will fix the problem - https://www.mail-archive.com/bug-guix@gnu.org/msg16190.html 2021-04-13T17:10:37Z nij: I just want to make sure that it's CFFI's problem before it - cuz in the error message there's no cffi. 2021-04-13T17:10:57Z Bike: yeah, cffi just calls sbcl, which just calls dlopen 2021-04-13T17:10:57Z nij: OH actually there is.. in the backtrace. 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Anywhere.) 2021-04-13T18:07:29Z gpiero joined #lisp 2021-04-13T18:08:31Z diamondbond quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-13T18:10:58Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-13T18:11:24Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-13T18:12:00Z yitzi joined #lisp 2021-04-13T18:12:00Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-13T18:12:09Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-13T18:14:20Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-13T18:14:59Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-04-13T18:15:00Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-13T18:16:58Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-13T18:17:10Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-13T18:18:09Z DHARMAKAYA quit (Quit: Turning off a portion of this simulation.) 2021-04-13T18:18:29Z mathrick_ joined #lisp 2021-04-13T18:19:15Z Sauvin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-13T18:20:46Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-13T18:20:47Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-13T18:21:03Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-13T18:21:27Z jasom: does SBCL have operations for efficiently calculating leading zeros or leading ones of a machine word? 2021-04-13T18:22:27Z diamondbond joined #lisp 2021-04-13T18:22:33Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-04-13T18:22:53Z flip214: clhs INTEGER-LENGTH 2021-04-13T18:22:54Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_intege.htm 2021-04-13T18:22:56Z flip214: might help 2021-04-13T18:24:21Z jasom: aha, that will do 2021-04-13T18:24:22Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-13T18:24:28Z flip214: sb-vm:n-fixnum-bits says 63 for me... shouldn't it be 62 significant bits? 2021-04-13T18:24:36Z jasom: will have to subtract 2021-04-13T18:24:41Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-13T18:24:43Z Josh_2` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-13T18:24:47Z jasom: flip214: I think there's a single bit for tagging, so nope? 2021-04-13T18:25:17Z flip214: jasom: I'd have thought 2 bits 2021-04-13T18:25:26Z flip214: clhs LOGCOUNT 2021-04-13T18:25:27Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_logcou.htm 2021-04-13T18:26:22Z flip214: sb-vm:n-machine-word-bits says 64 2021-04-13T18:26:47Z flip214: but yeah, sb-vm:n-fixnum-tag-bits is 1 2021-04-13T18:27:16Z jasom: (integer-length most-positive-fixnum) => 62, so given that there are negative fixnums, looks like 63 2021-04-13T18:27:48Z flip214: just wanted to paste that as well 2021-04-13T18:28:07Z chipolux quit (Quit: chipolux) 2021-04-13T18:28:07Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-13T18:28:14Z phoe: (integer-length most-negative-fixnum) ;=> 62 too 2021-04-13T18:28:23Z phoe: so looks like 1 bit tag, 1 bit sign, 62 bits left for digits 2021-04-13T18:28:30Z phoe: wait, no 2021-04-13T18:28:33Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-13T18:28:48Z phoe: 1 bit tag, 62 bits encode the number in two's complement... 2021-04-13T18:28:55Z phoe thinks 2021-04-13T18:28:56Z Xach: it's an ancient trick to squeeze an extra bit 2021-04-13T18:29:21Z jasom: 1 bit tag, 63 bits encode the number in twos complement; (integer-length #xff) => 8, but clearly if you can go up to 255 with signed values it's 9 bits twos complement 2021-04-13T18:29:24Z flip214: phoe: no, you were right first time... 1 tag, 1 sign, 62 significant for both positive and negative 2021-04-13T18:29:40Z phoe: yes 2021-04-13T18:30:26Z flip214: the ol' compression trick - just remember where the 1 bits are, the 0 bits take care of themselves. applied recursively you end up with "1", which encompasses every possible meaning at once! 2021-04-13T18:30:36Z flip214: (and not 42, as some heretics might make you believe) 2021-04-13T18:33:11Z diamondbond quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-04-13T18:34:30Z ech joined #lisp 2021-04-13T18:37:05Z diamondbond joined #lisp 2021-04-13T18:37:06Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-13T18:37:14Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-13T18:39:26Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-13T18:41:07Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-13T18:44:48Z ramHero quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-13T18:49:38Z akoana joined #lisp 2021-04-13T18:49:56Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-04-13T18:52:33Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-13T18:52:49Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-13T18:52:59Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-13T18:52:59Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-13T18:53:06Z diamondbond quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-13T18:53:16Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-13T18:53:46Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-04-13T18:55:36Z DHARMAKAYA joined #lisp 2021-04-13T18:56:40Z jeosol joined #lisp 2021-04-13T18:58:59Z kini quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-13T19:00:15Z kini joined #lisp 2021-04-13T19:00:47Z curtosis joined #lisp 2021-04-13T19:01:38Z splittist: "Ran 14; Passed 14; Failed 0". Yay for me. 2021-04-13T19:02:23Z DHARMAKAYA quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-13T19:02:37Z Elzington quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-13T19:03:04Z Elzington joined #lisp 2021-04-13T19:03:15Z yitzi quit (Quit: yitzi) 2021-04-13T19:04:03Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2021-04-13T19:04:09Z Shinmera: Heh, *exaggerated smug face* check this out: UAX-9 Total: 1'815'582 Passed: 1'815'582 (100%) Failed: 0 ( 0%) 2021-04-13T19:04:59Z ramHero joined #lisp 2021-04-13T19:05:36Z phoe: oh come on, check this out: 2021-04-13T19:05:43Z _death: for proper TDD brag you need to show that each failed first, and that the previous ones succeeded 2021-04-13T19:06:10Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-04-13T19:07:50Z Shinmera: phoe: I'm trying, but it appears there is nothing to check out. 2021-04-13T19:07:50Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-13T19:08:21Z gumman quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-13T19:08:32Z phoe: Shinmera: hold on, it's still counting how many tests there are to run 2021-04-13T19:08:34Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-13T19:08:49Z gumman joined #lisp 2021-04-13T19:09:05Z phoe: oh right, there are Heap exhausted, game over. tests to run 2021-04-13T19:09:06Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-13T19:09:17Z phoe: oops 2021-04-13T19:09:29Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-13T19:09:43Z Shinmera: Anyway, in case it wasn't obvious, there are 2 million tests for UAX9, but they're all auto-generated from unicod conformance data. :) 2021-04-13T19:09:57Z gumman quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2021-04-13T19:10:07Z Shinmera: And those in turn I'm sure are generated as well. 2021-04-13T19:10:22Z gumman joined #lisp 2021-04-13T19:11:08Z aeth: put this in a macro and win the test war... (defun generate-tests (number-of-tests) (list* '5am:test 'lots-of-tests "Win the war of having the most tests" (loop :for i :from 0 :below number-of-tests :collect `(5am:is (= ,i ,i))))) 2021-04-13T19:12:19Z klltkr joined #lisp 2021-04-13T19:12:21Z aeth: (generate-tests 2000000) ; oops, ran out of memory in SBCL... looks like it needs to be optimized more 2021-04-13T19:12:36Z aeth: I guess I could also just increase the heap size! 2021-04-13T19:12:38Z phoe: that's kinda what I tried 2021-04-13T19:12:45Z phoe: oh! I didn't try heap size expansion 2021-04-13T19:12:51Z phoe quickly makes a 500G swap file 2021-04-13T19:13:04Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-04-13T19:13:17Z Shinmera: the difference is that the uax tests are actually meaningful. 2021-04-13T19:13:25Z phoe: yes 2021-04-13T19:13:50Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-04-13T19:13:52Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-04-13T19:14:02Z _death: aeth: that looks like a single (failing :) test to me 2021-04-13T19:14:05Z aeth: To be fair, there is a small chance that this will catch an implementation bug. 2021-04-13T19:15:13Z mfiano: Hey Lispers, gamedevs, and the uninitiated -- it's almost time: https://itch.io/jam/spring-lisp-game-jam-2021 2021-04-13T19:15:36Z curtosis quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-04-13T19:15:39Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-04-13T19:15:43Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-04-13T19:15:47Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-04-13T19:15:50Z Shinmera: Hmm. If my current jam project wasn't aimed to be commercial I'd actually join for once. 2021-04-13T19:15:52Z Shinmera: Oh well! 2021-04-13T19:15:57Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-13T19:16:48Z Josh_2: idk how to make a game so im out 2021-04-13T19:16:58Z Shinmera: you write the code 2021-04-13T19:17:01Z Shinmera: and then the thing moves 2021-04-13T19:17:04Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-13T19:17:14Z contrapunctus: I've been looking into making a game for the last three days, but I'm new to both game dev and Common Lisp :\ (and not a very experienced programmer either) 2021-04-13T19:17:25Z Shinmera: sometimes the thing only moves in your mind, but it's still a game! 2021-04-13T19:17:27Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-04-13T19:17:33Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-04-13T19:17:35Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-04-13T19:19:55Z mfiano: The point of the jam is not to make a game, oddly enough. 2021-04-13T19:22:45Z Shinmera: I made games in Fortran when I was 5, it's not hard to make /a/ game. It's hard to make a game with high production values and comparable to commercial games you might be envisioning. 2021-04-13T19:22:49Z mfiano: The idea is to practice. Even if you don't finish something, it is still desirable to submit it, as it gives you something to look back on to get a sense of your progression, and it also gives other people a base on which to work on, or ideas for their own future submissions. 2021-04-13T19:23:06Z Shinmera: Either way the point is you can make a game, just lower your expectations. 2021-04-13T19:23:54Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2021-04-13T19:24:33Z Xach: I think like many endeavors it can be daunting to understand how to break down into completable individual pieces that, if you complete enough, results in a complete product/project 2021-04-13T19:24:56Z mfiano: So, you could just take an existing game, from past jams or GitHub etc, modify it, study it to learn how it works, and perhaps get a better idea of gamedev in general and some ideas you'd like to execute in the future. 2021-04-13T19:25:16Z Xach: (Which is part of the magic - when you see something and can instantly figure out how it's done, it is hard to be very delighted...) 2021-04-13T19:25:52Z mfiano: It's quite intimidating to try to make a game as a beginner in a public jam with a time limit. That is not the point at all though...the point is to learn and have fun :) 2021-04-13T19:27:59Z mfiano: Would like to see Xach try sometime :) 2021-04-13T19:28:37Z Xach: The desire to make games led to my interest in computers, but I don't enjoy games nearly as much as I used to :~( 2021-04-13T19:28:48Z mfiano: _death said he might too. I'd like to see longtime lispers that never participated try. 2021-04-13T19:29:01Z Xach: I'd like to try someday anyway though! 2021-04-13T19:29:08Z mfiano: Xach: Same here, I don't like playing games, but it is incredibly interesting to code them. 2021-04-13T19:29:21Z Shinmera: I can offer more assistance with Trial than usual this and next week if someone wants to give it a shot using it. 2021-04-13T19:29:45Z _death: mfiano: I did participate in a lisp game jam once :) 2021-04-13T19:29:53Z _death: mfiano: though I didn't see it on the lispgames wiki 2021-04-13T19:29:54Z ramHero quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-13T19:30:03Z mfiano: _death: Oh I don't recall, just recall that you said you might this time :) 2021-04-13T19:30:06Z _death: mfiano: (ql:quickload "consix") (consix:game) 2021-04-13T19:30:13Z aeth: The games I liked the most (especially as a teenager) tended to be massive time sinks, so I just stay away from them entirely. And I don't try games that have patterns like that, especially if you have to log in daily/weekly (quite a few AAA games now), if you have things you need to constantly defend from raids (most survival games), etc. 2021-04-13T19:30:20Z aeth: I only play games that you can just jump in and jump out 2021-04-13T19:31:02Z aeth: So for me personally, it's not that I don't like games anymore, it's that I try not to like games too much anymore. 2021-04-13T19:31:50Z bilegeek quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-13T19:32:06Z _death: mfiano: also try (ql:quickload "towers") (towers:game) 2021-04-13T19:32:13Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-04-13T19:32:20Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-04-13T19:32:22Z mfiano: _death: I see. 2010 was before my time as a host, when I was just a few years into Lisp at that point, and not sure I was doing games. 2021-04-13T19:32:31Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-04-13T19:32:37Z _death: mfiano: but, right now I'm compiling aseprite.. so it's one step closer to participation 2021-04-13T19:32:40Z Xach: I like visual toys and interactivity, so maybe that would be my way in... 2021-04-13T19:32:52Z mfiano: Xach: go for it! 2021-04-13T19:33:07Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-13T19:34:13Z ramHero joined #lisp 2021-04-13T19:34:49Z mfiano: I'd just like to see more COmmon Lispers participate. Too many Lua/Fennel Lisp games :) 2021-04-13T19:35:05Z Xach: boo 2021-04-13T19:35:19Z Xach: 500 meg binary or bust 2021-04-13T19:35:21Z mfiano: I've thought about making the first of the bi-annual jams CL only, but then I don't think we'd get anyone but borodust :) 2021-04-13T19:39:42Z ramHero quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-13T19:40:16Z Nilby: I already have 7 unfinished lisp games, and the 3 that I finished were very un-fun, so I'm not sure working on games as an anti-burnout tactic has worked. 2021-04-13T19:41:01Z nij left #lisp 2021-04-13T19:43:25Z scymtym joined #lisp 2021-04-13T19:44:10Z Nilby: Presumably results would be better with intrinsic motivation, rather than boredom with other things. 2021-04-13T19:47:21Z memories_ joined #lisp 2021-04-13T19:48:13Z jborg joined #lisp 2021-04-13T19:50:36Z _death: mfiano: I also have some tic-80 w/ ecl thing.. it was some years ago, but maybe someone wants to pick it up 2021-04-13T19:51:23Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2021-04-13T19:52:48Z mfiano: Maybe, I have never messed with tic-80 myself 2021-04-13T19:52:56Z mfiano: Nor ecl for that matter 2021-04-13T19:53:00Z Xach: tic-80 is nice. very very short feedback loop. 2021-04-13T19:53:14Z _death: well https://github.com/death/TIC-80 is the repo 2021-04-13T19:53:30Z Bike: quick question - i was looking at tic-80 before - it's not an actual virtual machine is it? like it doesn't have a bytecode ISA or something, you can write code in whatever 2021-04-13T19:53:31Z _death: I even added paren highlighting ;) 2021-04-13T19:53:58Z mfiano: Do you have to cherry pick through 1527 commits? :) 2021-04-13T19:54:04Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-13T19:54:06Z _death: Bike: from what I remember it just embedded a js/lua engine 2021-04-13T19:54:10Z surabax_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-13T19:54:24Z Bike: ok yeah, that's what it looked like. i think i had it in my head that it was an actual VM 2021-04-13T19:54:29Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2021-04-13T19:54:40Z luis: Has anyone built a Docker container with ALL THE LISPS? 2021-04-13T19:55:58Z phoe: luis: https://common-lisp.net/project/cl-docker-images/ ? 2021-04-13T19:56:52Z _death: mfiano: I've not kept up with tic-80.. it was just when it was made public (hence only 60 commits in that repo).. it seemed pretty functional back then though 2021-04-13T19:57:39Z andrei_n quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-13T19:57:44Z luis: phoe: 5 Lisps is not all the Lisps but it's a rather nice start! 2021-04-13T20:00:13Z mfiano: All the lisps is a lot of lisps 2021-04-13T20:00:22Z mfiano: Forget TIC-80, need the TI-80 too :) 2021-04-13T20:01:54Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-04-13T20:06:11Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-13T20:07:32Z luis: Hmm, although the site only lists CMUCL, ECL, SBCL, ABCL and CCL, https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/asdf/asdf/-/blob/master/gitlab-ci.yml suggests there's a CLISP image too. 2021-04-13T20:08:15Z curtosis joined #lisp 2021-04-13T20:09:17Z pranavats quit (Quit: Gateway shutdown) 2021-04-13T20:11:45Z jborg quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-04-13T20:12:16Z nij joined #lisp 2021-04-13T20:12:41Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-13T20:13:02Z nij: Weird.. in my stumpwm config, I have (when (ignore-errors (ql:quickload :some-package)) (progn (defcommand ..))) 2021-04-13T20:13:22Z nij: So when :some-package fails to load, the progn block doesn't get evaluated. 2021-04-13T20:13:31Z Bike: but you get a read error anyway? 2021-04-13T20:13:37Z nij: However, defcommand does get evaluated! And the other sub-blocks do not! 2021-04-13T20:13:41Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-13T20:13:52Z nij: Could it be that defcommand is a macro that leaks? Is it even possible? 2021-04-13T20:13:52Z Bike: oh. dang, my crystal ball is off today 2021-04-13T20:14:31Z Bike: leaks as in modifies the surrounding context in this way? no, t hat's not possible. 2021-04-13T20:14:40Z Bike: what do you mean by "the other sub-blocks" 2021-04-13T20:14:43Z Bike: the other forms in the progn? 2021-04-13T20:14:56Z scymtym_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-13T20:19:13Z jasom: my brain is not working today. How does one print a zero-padded integer with format? 2021-04-13T20:19:33Z Bike: "3,'0d" i think? 2021-04-13T20:19:49Z jasom: Bike: that gives e.g. 0-3 for negative 3 2021-04-13T20:20:05Z Bike: huh, so it does. 2021-04-13T20:20:41Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-13T20:23:39Z _death: you could do something yucky like (format t "~A~3,'0D" (if (minusp x) "-" "") (abs x)) 2021-04-13T20:24:16Z Bike: yeah, it doesn't seem like there's a ~d incantation here 2021-04-13T20:24:49Z jasom: _death: that gives the behavior like C's "%.3d" but still not like C's "%03d" (the former prints 3 digits, the later 3 characters) 2021-04-13T20:25:21Z Bike: throw in v and subtract 1 from the digit count if it's negative 2021-04-13T20:25:26Z Bike: really sucks at that point though 2021-04-13T20:25:37Z jasom: this might be a job for ~/ 2021-04-13T20:25:57Z luis: https://github.com/splittist/printfcl *runs away* 2021-04-13T20:26:01Z splittist: (printfcl:printf "%03d" thing) 2021-04-13T20:26:07Z splittist: (: 2021-04-13T20:26:07Z Xach: lol 2021-04-13T20:31:13Z Krystof: do you have a compiler macro to turn constant-printf-string printfs into constant-format-string format controls? 2021-04-13T20:35:34Z splittist: Krystof: no. The forthcoming scanfcl does compile its control string, though. 2021-04-13T20:36:16Z hypercube quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-13T20:37:26Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-04-13T20:40:25Z Cthulhux quit (Quit: ne praeteriverit priusquam obesa cantaverit) 2021-04-13T20:40:31Z Krystof: (format t "~:[~3,'0D~;-~2,'0D~]" (minusp x) (abs x)) ; for what it's worth 2021-04-13T20:41:16Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-13T20:41:30Z luis chuckles 2021-04-13T20:42:20Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-04-13T20:42:20Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2021-04-13T20:42:20Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-04-13T20:48:22Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-13T20:49:19Z X-Scale joined #lisp 2021-04-13T20:51:02Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-04-13T20:51:56Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-04-13T20:52:30Z villanella quit (Client Quit) 2021-04-13T20:53:56Z Cthulhux joined #lisp 2021-04-13T21:00:07Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-04-13T21:00:38Z klltkr quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-04-13T21:00:57Z lotuseater: i learned today for what SYMBOL-MACROLET not to use :) had often something like (aref e k) in a function with even SETF and thought, oh hm, so use (symbol-macrolet ((e_k '(aref e k))) ...) 2021-04-13T21:01:06Z klltkr joined #lisp 2021-04-13T21:01:07Z lotuseater: but labeling readmacros did it then ^^ 2021-04-13T21:01:25Z klltkr quit (Client Quit) 2021-04-13T21:02:00Z klltkr joined #lisp 2021-04-13T21:02:13Z klltkr quit (Client Quit) 2021-04-13T21:05:12Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-13T21:07:01Z _death: it's fine to use that.. except that extraneous quote 2021-04-13T21:07:44Z lotuseater: ah i thought it has to be a symbolic expression 2021-04-13T21:08:14Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-04-13T21:10:42Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-13T21:11:18Z lotuseater: oh cool thanks. sometimes those are really useful 2021-04-13T21:12:55Z lotuseater: but hm, the other thing was, translating an algorithm with three closures and that use same parameter names as declared for lexical scope in the main algorithm ^^ how does FLET handle that? 2021-04-13T21:14:04Z lotuseater: being more concrete, it was this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobi_eigenvalue_algorithm#Algorithm 2021-04-13T21:14:43Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-13T21:15:22Z vaporatorius__ joined #lisp 2021-04-13T21:17:01Z _death: not sure what you're asking.. this pseudocode looks like it could use some factoring.. I'd start by pulling those functions out 2021-04-13T21:17:59Z _death: that makes it easier to test things in the repl 2021-04-13T21:18:58Z vaporatorius quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-13T21:20:54Z Shinmera: Or just use one of a bunch of matrix libraries that can already compute eigenvalues 2021-04-13T21:26:19Z pve quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-04-13T21:31:59Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-04-13T21:33:38Z lotuseater: yes it does need refactoring :D 2021-04-13T21:33:59Z lotuseater: Shinmera: that's not the point :) 2021-04-13T21:37:27Z DHARMAKAYA joined #lisp 2021-04-13T21:37:53Z elderK joined #lisp 2021-04-13T21:38:40Z kini quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-13T21:39:58Z kini joined #lisp 2021-04-13T21:46:26Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-13T21:48:42Z scymtym joined #lisp 2021-04-13T21:48:44Z lowryder joined #lisp 2021-04-13T21:50:32Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-13T21:51:47Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-04-13T21:55:04Z curtosis is now known as curtosis[away] 2021-04-13T21:55:12Z srhm quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-13T21:56:47Z curtosis[away] quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. 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I forgot his nick), easye and phoe would be very much appreciated, as they have all the info. :) 2021-04-13T22:09:59Z phoe: gasp! #els2021 now has competition 2021-04-13T22:10:58Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-04-13T22:11:04Z ioa: phoe, oh, I didn't know about #els2021, there was a discussion about this years els in the old room els2020, and SAL9000 made elsconf so we don't create a room every year. 2021-04-13T22:11:16Z ioa: *year's 2021-04-13T22:12:01Z phoe: sure, sounds good! let's discuss the channel setup when everyone (including me) is awake tomorrow 2021-04-13T22:12:24Z ioa: sounds good, good night! 2021-04-13T22:14:23Z mathrick joined #lisp 2021-04-13T22:14:39Z mathrick_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-13T22:15:16Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-13T22:19:16Z mathrick_ joined #lisp 2021-04-13T22:19:52Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-13T22:20:48Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-04-13T22:22:06Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-04-13T22:23:31Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-13T22:23:43Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-04-13T22:28:08Z frgo_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-13T22:28:34Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-04-13T22:29:08Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-13T22:29:51Z xsperry quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-13T22:31:36Z ryanbw joined #lisp 2021-04-13T22:33:52Z DHARMAKAYA quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-13T22:35:12Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-13T22:38:55Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-04-13T22:39:46Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-04-13T22:43:10Z hjudt quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-13T22:45:00Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-13T22:45:07Z luckless joined #lisp 2021-04-13T22:45:55Z imode joined #lisp 2021-04-13T22:55:41Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-13T22:59:44Z xsperry joined #lisp 2021-04-13T23:01:25Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2021-04-13T23:02:12Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-04-13T23:08:33Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-04-13T23:29:14Z bilegeek joined #lisp 2021-04-13T23:29:51Z kini quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-13T23:31:10Z kini joined #lisp 2021-04-13T23:31:41Z indathrone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-13T23:33:33Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-13T23:33:35Z indathrone joined #lisp 2021-04-13T23:35:29Z lotuseater quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-04-13T23:35:39Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-04-13T23:37:36Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-13T23:42:38Z indathrone quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-13T23:50:52Z xsperry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-13T23:57:11Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2021-04-14T00:03:28Z igemnace joined #lisp 2021-04-14T00:05:54Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-04-14T00:08:25Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-04-14T00:10:32Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-04-14T00:26:04Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-14T00:26:20Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-04-14T00:27:40Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-04-14T00:31:35Z nicktick joined #lisp 2021-04-14T00:32:19Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-14T00:33:07Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-04-14T00:34:25Z cosimone quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-14T00:37:36Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-14T00:38:00Z nij: Oh no Bike sorry I missed your message as my friend called. Feeling bad :( 2021-04-14T00:38:25Z nij: >> Weird.. in my stumpwm config, I have (when (ignore-errors (ql:quickload :some-package)) (progn (defcommand ..))) 2021-04-14T00:38:51Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-04-14T00:39:01Z nij: When :some-package is not presented, (defcommand) was still evaluated, leading to an error. 2021-04-14T00:39:25Z nij: I was wondering if defcommand is some macro that might "leak". 2021-04-14T00:40:18Z nij: So I did put (progn (setf test 123) (defcommand ... something that will fail)).. 2021-04-14T00:41:17Z amontero joined #lisp 2021-04-14T00:41:18Z nij: The package :some-package was not presented, so (progn..) shouldn't be evaluated (indeed, TEST wasn't set to 123). However, (defcommand..) was evaluated and led to another error. 2021-04-14T00:43:10Z gitgood quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-14T00:51:23Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-04-14T00:54:53Z akoana left #lisp 2021-04-14T01:03:37Z jasom: is it possible to sign-extend a number, given a desired bitwidth? i.e. treat a positive number as being the unsigned representation of a twos-complement value? 2021-04-14T01:03:48Z jasom: so e.g. (foo #xff 8) => -1 2021-04-14T01:05:52Z xsperry joined #lisp 2021-04-14T01:06:00Z xsperry quit (Changing host) 2021-04-14T01:06:00Z xsperry joined #lisp 2021-04-14T01:06:43Z MIF joined #lisp 2021-04-14T01:08:06Z moon-child: (defun foo (n b) (let ((m (1- (expt 2 (1- b))))) (if (< n m) n (- m n))) 2021-04-14T01:08:20Z pagnol joined #lisp 2021-04-14T01:08:42Z jasom: right, but nothing builtin for that? 2021-04-14T01:08:55Z DHARMAKAYA joined #lisp 2021-04-14T01:08:59Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2021-04-14T01:09:06Z pagnol: morning 2021-04-14T01:09:07Z moon-child: err, s/ #'when # 2021-04-14T03:26:20Z no-defun-allowed: Try it on Clozure. 2021-04-14T03:26:43Z nij: Bike, well, but that form shouldn't even been touched, right? 2021-04-14T03:26:44Z Bike: it is an error to use function on a symbol that denotes a macro or special form 2021-04-14T03:26:48Z nij: Cuz the predicate fails. 2021-04-14T03:27:06Z Bike: the form that is read is the _entire_ form 2021-04-14T03:27:07Z no-defun-allowed: ...or ECL, or ABCL, or CLISP even. 2021-04-14T03:27:08Z nij: Bike: how would you address a macro or a special form? 2021-04-14T03:27:14Z no-defun-allowed: "The macro WHEN" 2021-04-14T03:27:20Z Bike: it reads the whole thing at once. (when ... (recording:prompt-recording) ...) 2021-04-14T03:27:44Z Bike: and yes, you could just say "the macro WHEN". to get the macro function you would do (macro-function 'when) 2021-04-14T03:27:54Z nij: Bike: if it's just READing.. then it should read RECORDING:PROMPT-RECORDING as a symbol, without issue, no? 2021-04-14T03:28:05Z Bike: the reader cannot handle symbols from unknown packages 2021-04-14T03:28:28Z Bike: because packages can use other packages, it is not clear what package a qualified symbol actually belongs to until the package is defined 2021-04-14T03:28:44Z nij: OH! 2021-04-14T03:28:49Z nij: Yay thanks that clarifies! 2021-04-14T03:28:53Z nij: CL-USER> (when nil h:hiiii); Debugger entered on # 2021-04-14T03:29:03Z nij: Now I understand. Thank you very much :) 2021-04-14T03:29:03Z Bike: mhm 2021-04-14T03:29:25Z Bike: i don't know what's going on with the defcommand thing though. all i can guess is you have persistent state between trials messing things up. 2021-04-14T03:29:39Z nij: no then defcommand isn't the problem 2021-04-14T03:29:42Z nij: it's not evaluated 2021-04-14T03:29:47Z nij: my problem was that error 2021-04-14T03:29:53Z Bike: ok, great. 2021-04-14T03:29:57Z nij: then .. how to workaround this? 2021-04-14T03:30:13Z nij: on some machine i don't expect the package to be loaded correctly 2021-04-14T03:30:23Z nij: if that's the case, I don't intend to load config for it 2021-04-14T03:30:24Z Bike: you could do some annoying things with find-symbol, like (funcall (find-symbol "PROMPT-RECORDING" "RECORDING")) 2021-04-14T03:30:40Z Bike: then the symbol won't actually be looked up until the form is evaluated, so the reader won't complain 2021-04-14T03:31:08Z nij: I mean.. only want that config when the package is loaded correctly 2021-04-14T03:31:12Z Bike: right 2021-04-14T03:31:15Z nij: otherwise, skip that piece of config 2021-04-14T03:31:29Z Bike: so i mean if you do the find-symbol thing, it will do what you're trying to do here, i think 2021-04-14T03:31:35Z Bike: none of that code will be evaluated if the quickload failed 2021-04-14T03:31:49Z Bike: but the reader won't complain 2021-04-14T03:31:54Z nij: I need to write recording:prompt-recording somewhere in the code, no? 2021-04-14T03:32:00Z Bike: No 2021-04-14T03:32:10Z Bike: Try (find-symbol "PROMPT-RECORDING" "RECORDING") in the repl 2021-04-14T03:32:15Z Bike: or (find-symbol "MAX" "CL") or something 2021-04-14T03:32:20Z Bike: you get the symbol back. 2021-04-14T03:32:33Z Bike: it will look it up at runtime, rather than at read time 2021-04-14T03:32:54Z Bike: so, if the quickload fails, the find-symbol will not be evaluated, so the symbol is not looked up, so there's no problem 2021-04-14T03:34:04Z nij: and if it succeeds, the find-symbol will return the right symbol, which will in turn be evaluated? 2021-04-14T03:34:09Z nij: and the config is loaded? 2021-04-14T03:34:44Z Bike: uhhuh. 2021-04-14T03:35:20Z nij: ((find-symbol "+" "CL") 1 1) => error 2021-04-14T03:35:22Z nij: no.. 2021-04-14T03:36:01Z mfiano: This isn't scheme 2021-04-14T03:36:03Z Bike: funcall 2021-04-14T03:36:14Z Bike: did you see the funcall? when i write things i mean them to be involved 2021-04-14T03:36:21Z Bike: (funcall (find-symbol "+" "CL") 1 1) 2021-04-14T03:36:33Z nij: OHOHok of course 2021-04-14T03:36:45Z nij: thanks! learned a lot :) 2021-04-14T03:36:54Z nij: I was quite confused. Now i'm fine! 2021-04-14T03:36:57Z Bike: glad to be of assistance 2021-04-14T03:37:01Z nij: <3 GN 2021-04-14T03:45:28Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-04-14T03:49:56Z curtosis[away] joined #lisp 2021-04-14T03:51:46Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-14T03:54:37Z pagnol quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-14T03:55:48Z nicktick joined #lisp 2021-04-14T03:58:15Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-04-14T03:59:14Z Iolo quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5+deb4 - https://znc.in) 2021-04-14T04:01:35Z Iolo joined #lisp 2021-04-14T04:01:59Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-14T04:04:37Z curtosis[away] quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-04-14T04:08:57Z lawt joined #lisp 2021-04-14T04:11:18Z hypercube quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-14T04:14:08Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-04-14T04:14:10Z contrapunctus: I'm writing something dealing with vCard data, and it seems the only result for the only Lisp library for it is here. The link is dead and I can't find the project anywhere else :\ https://old.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/qk3ag/clvcard_parsing_vcard_with_common_lisp/ 2021-04-14T04:16:35Z chipolux quit (Quit: chipolux) 2021-04-14T04:21:55Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-04-14T04:24:09Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-04-14T04:32:34Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-14T04:34:27Z sp41 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-14T04:37:11Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-04-14T04:41:30Z chipolux joined #lisp 2021-04-14T04:50:33Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-04-14T04:51:47Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-04-14T04:54:42Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-04-14T04:54:52Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-04-14T04:55:21Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-14T04:57:05Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-04-14T04:57:23Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-04-14T04:57:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: contrapunctus: I've recently used soiree ( https://github.com/slyrus/soiree ) for this sort of thing 2021-04-14T04:58:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: I ended up writing my own ics parser, though, because I wanted a streaming-style parser, rather than instantiating objects for the whole calendar in memory 2021-04-14T04:59:06Z contrapunctus: fiddlerwoaroof: whoa, thanks a lot 2021-04-14T05:01:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: If you need to handle ics files only, I have this: https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/lisp-sandbox/blob/master/ical-parser.lisp 2021-04-14T05:02:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: I might actually have something more "production quality": this is in my experiments repo 2021-04-14T05:03:28Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-04-14T05:03:29Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2021-04-14T05:03:29Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-04-14T05:04:01Z Oladon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-14T05:04:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/aion/blob/master/build-tree.lisp 2021-04-14T05:05:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: This project is my more fleshed-out version 2021-04-14T05:05:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: No docs yet (sorry), but this is an example of the protocol I've designed to process the stream of data from an iCalendar format file 2021-04-14T05:05:53Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-04-14T05:06:39Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-04-14T05:06:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: I also have a version that generates an sqlite db because I really like https://datasette.io for data exploration 2021-04-14T05:07:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: ^ contrapunctus 2021-04-14T05:09:26Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-04-14T05:09:36Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-04-14T05:13:31Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-14T05:19:41Z hjudt joined #lisp 2021-04-14T05:27:50Z sauvin joined #lisp 2021-04-14T05:37:08Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-04-14T05:37:21Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-04-14T05:46:00Z andrei-n joined #lisp 2021-04-14T05:46:04Z HDurer joined #lisp 2021-04-14T05:51:37Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-14T06:00:47Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2021-04-14T06:04:26Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-04-14T06:05:12Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-14T06:05:26Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-04-14T06:06:23Z ramHero joined #lisp 2021-04-14T06:06:26Z curtosis[away] joined #lisp 2021-04-14T06:08:12Z indathrone joined #lisp 2021-04-14T06:08:54Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-04-14T06:09:33Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-14T06:13:32Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-14T06:16:15Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-04-14T06:18:19Z abhixec joined #lisp 2021-04-14T06:20:53Z curtosis[away] quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-04-14T06:21:23Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-04-14T06:22:42Z chipolux quit (Quit: chipolux) 2021-04-14T06:24:13Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-14T06:33:25Z Shinmera: There's also my https://shinmera.github.io/iclendar 2021-04-14T06:34:07Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-04-14T06:34:07Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2021-04-14T06:34:07Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-04-14T06:34:09Z theruran quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-04-14T06:34:34Z gendl quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-04-14T06:34:41Z selwyn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-14T06:34:44Z rme quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds) 2021-04-14T06:34:50Z mpontillo quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-04-14T06:35:47Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-04-14T06:35:47Z rme quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-04-14T06:36:25Z gendl joined #lisp 2021-04-14T06:36:27Z selwyn joined #lisp 2021-04-14T06:36:39Z mpontillo joined #lisp 2021-04-14T06:36:39Z theruran joined #lisp 2021-04-14T06:37:14Z rme joined #lisp 2021-04-14T06:37:16Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2021-04-14T06:40:37Z contrapunctus: Shinmera: I figured I'd at least update the licenses for your projects on awesome-cl - and there are so many! Talk about prolific 🤯 2021-04-14T06:41:33Z Shinmera: too many, some would argue 2021-04-14T06:46:13Z imode quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-14T06:49:49Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-04-14T06:50:01Z cchristiansen joined #lisp 2021-04-14T06:50:23Z indathrone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-14T06:50:42Z indathrone joined #lisp 2021-04-14T07:01:09Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-04-14T07:01:37Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-04-14T07:02:15Z hiroaki_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-14T07:02:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: Shinmera: I guess I should have checked your repos first :) 2021-04-14T07:02:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: I made the mistake of just checking Cliki 2021-04-14T07:02:52Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-14T07:03:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: Although, I think your library is the inverse of mine: I only support parsing ics, you only seem to support generating it 2021-04-14T07:04:06Z Shinmera: Yes, I never got around to implementing parsing. 2021-04-14T07:04:17Z Posterdati quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-14T07:05:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: I consulted the RFC for mine, but I didn't implement everything: I implemented what was necessary to parse my work calendar and a couple random calendars I found online 2021-04-14T07:05:42Z Shinmera: As usual with RFCs the spec is absolutely insane 2021-04-14T07:05:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah 2021-04-14T07:06:30Z surabax joined #lisp 2021-04-14T07:07:04Z Shinmera: iclendar has the advantage that it actually defines all types and relations in code already, so it could become a strict parser at some point. 2021-04-14T07:07:12Z contrapunctus: Shinmera: some clarification - `deploy` still seems to be Artistic License - is this deliberate? Also, qtools is zlib, correct? For some reason GitHub doesn't seem to recognize it in that specific case. 2021-04-14T07:07:51Z Shinmera: ah, damn, must have forgotten to update deploy somehow, let me fix that. 2021-04-14T07:08:24Z Shinmera: everything should be zlib. if it isn't there's a bug :) 2021-04-14T07:08:46Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-14T07:09:09Z Shinmera: I did the update through a script back then... wonder how it missed deploy. 2021-04-14T07:09:58Z contrapunctus: Shinmera: ^^ ditto https://github.com/Shinmera/definitions 2021-04-14T07:13:05Z Shinmera: Ah, I was on a branch for that one. At least that explains that lol 2021-04-14T07:13:26Z hiroaki_ joined #lisp 2021-04-14T07:14:22Z Shinmera: Fixed both, thanks. 2021-04-14T07:15:55Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-04-14T07:17:13Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2021-04-14T07:19:23Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-14T07:19:27Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2021-04-14T07:20:51Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-04-14T07:23:52Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-14T07:30:57Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-14T07:32:08Z Cthulhux quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-04-14T07:34:16Z Cthulhux joined #lisp 2021-04-14T07:35:44Z contrapunctus: Glad to be of help ^^ 2021-04-14T07:36:22Z Major_Biscuit joined #lisp 2021-04-14T07:36:55Z lukego: anyone else using Lisp/sbcl from nixpkgs or am I the only such fool around here? 2021-04-14T07:37:36Z jackdaniel: s/fool/visionary/ ;-) 2021-04-14T07:38:37Z contrapunctus: lukego: I might be joining you in that soon. 2021-04-14T07:38:47Z contrapunctus: (...but on NixOS.) 2021-04-14T07:38:54Z lukego: my condolences to you but misery loves company :) 2021-04-14T07:38:59Z vaporatorius__ is now known as Vaporatorius 2021-04-14T07:39:22Z Vaporatorius quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-14T07:39:39Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2021-04-14T07:39:40Z vaporatorius quit (Changing host) 2021-04-14T07:39:40Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2021-04-14T07:40:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: lukego: I'm using sbcl mostly from nix 2021-04-14T07:40:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: on darwin 2021-04-14T07:41:04Z lukego: I was just starting to spell out my current problem but I think I arrived at the solution - or at least a next step - in mid-sorrow :) 2021-04-14T07:41:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: Although, I sort of think I prefer my old way of manually building sbcl and putting it in ~/sbcl 2021-04-14T07:42:05Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-04-14T07:42:08Z lukego: I made an overlay to tweak the flags that sbcl is built with and I'm going nuts trying to understand why this new sbcl isn't being used. but now I realize that the one that is being used is from my user environment. so I know where to look for a problem now 2021-04-14T07:42:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, on my work laptop I use home-manager to manage all that, and just install from my overlay to the user environment 2021-04-14T07:44:17Z lukego: Nix has a lot of new features and workflows but I somehow keep using the ones from way back when I first installed it, when "nix pills" was the state of the art 2021-04-14T07:44:38Z lukego: I have heard the term "home manager" before but don't know what it means :) 2021-04-14T07:44:39Z JohnMS_WORK joined #lisp 2021-04-14T07:44:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: When I started this job a couple months ago, I decided to rebuild my setup 2021-04-14T07:45:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: home-manager is pretty cool, you have a home.nix and it generates a lot of the dotfiles I used to manage in my dotfiles github repo. It also lets me pick which packages get installed in the user environment 2021-04-14T07:45:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: Which I like, because I don't want to mess with the rest of my mac's system 2021-04-14T07:46:03Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-04-14T07:46:30Z lukego: I'm in a bit of a "lone hacker" mode. The nix expression for my Lisp program actually installs a lot of related stuff e.g. Emacs with a bunch of packages and their configurations. 2021-04-14T07:46:36Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-04-14T07:46:52Z lukego: I'm using ql2nix and that's treating me pretty well 2021-04-14T07:47:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: Cool, I've been meaning to try that 2021-04-14T07:47:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: I find that I want all my dependency management to be initiated from the REPL, though 2021-04-14T07:47:39Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-14T07:47:57Z lukego: yeah interesting, having Lisp wear the pants and dump out nix expressions could be a nice style 2021-04-14T07:48:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, I only install sbcl through nix: when I absolutely need to pin versions, I use legit to clone the relevant repos and configure ASDF 2021-04-14T07:50:10Z lukego: I have a Nix expression with a list [ "1am" "alexandria" ... ] of all quicklisp packages that I want installed and then it arranges for them all to be built and ready when I start sbcl 2021-04-14T07:50:36Z contrapunctus: lukego: sounds like you want Guix 🤔 2021-04-14T07:50:46Z lukego: contrapunctus: have been meaning to look at it one day :) 2021-04-14T07:50:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: I like to pretend that I have a lispos 2021-04-14T07:51:04Z lukego: I want everything pinned by default though, that's the appeal of Nix for me 2021-04-14T07:51:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I've also grown to dislike version pinning from Javascript 2021-04-14T07:52:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'd rather be forced to fix my code when the deps update rather than slowly dig myself into a huge pit as the world moves away from me 2021-04-14T07:52:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: If a library breaks my code too many times, I just ban it 2021-04-14T07:53:10Z davd33 joined #lisp 2021-04-14T07:54:19Z splittist: What's my best bet for a quick something I can display (possibly elaborately) styled text on from lisp, on Windows 10? 2021-04-14T07:54:41Z moon-child: browser? :P 2021-04-14T07:54:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: spinneret + hunchentoot? 2021-04-14T07:54:59Z lukego: fiddlerwoaroof: yeah. I regularly update to the latest of everything, i.e. refresh my nix distro from the latest quicklisp, but at least I decide when to do that and I can easily rollback if there's a problem that I'm not in the mood to debug. 2021-04-14T07:58:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: lukego: I've sort of been radicalized with the way I can just load and run 40 year old code in CL 2021-04-14T07:58:37Z splittist: Good point. And now I change the requirements: And interact with the text with keyboard and (probably) mouse. 2021-04-14T07:58:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: websocket-driver 2021-04-14T07:59:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think doing that from the browser is the goal of this: https://github.com/rabbibotton/clog 2021-04-14T07:59:28Z lukego: fiddlerwoaroof: I'm likewise radicalized by the old days when a "weekend of lisp hacking" would just mean getting a compatible set of dependencies from cvs :) 2021-04-14T08:00:13Z lukego: (but more genreally I basically stopped using dependencies of any kind many years ago, and then started again when I found nix and could police them. but I digress.) 2021-04-14T08:03:20Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-04-14T08:05:20Z remby left #lisp 2021-04-14T08:05:24Z lukego: Speaking of errors when rebuilding dependencies, I'm getting an error on compiling screamer now that I didn't have before, with two warnings and one error. I /think/ that the error is a -Werror kind of situation i.e. the compiler didn't find an error but asdf errored when it noticed the warnings (with a backtrace instead of an explanation.) plausible? 2021-04-14T08:06:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: lukego: line 75ff here is sort of my sketch of an in-cl way to do something nix-like: https://git.fiddlerwoaroof.com/u/edwlan/git-systems.git/blob/master/git-systems.lisp#L75 2021-04-14T08:06:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't think I've ever seen that happen 2021-04-14T08:07:03Z lukego: (and for all my talk of rolling back inconvenient breakages I can't actually do that because I didn't check-in my previous nix snapshots of quicklisp packages. so um a valuable learning experience about missed steps in my workflow) 2021-04-14T08:07:04Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-04-14T08:07:45Z Nilby: splittist: Unfortunately the bar for such a thing is very high now that it's expected to handle all the worlds languages and render super fast in a GPU. 2021-04-14T08:07:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: Screamer loads fine for me 2021-04-14T08:08:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: sbcl 2.1.3.71-f98bf1148 on arm64, http://beta.quicklisp.org/archive/screamer/2019-07-10/screamer-20190710-git.tgz 2021-04-14T08:08:36Z lukego: seems like asdf:*compile-file-failure-behaviour* default behavior on SBCL will error from ASDF if the compiler warns 2021-04-14T08:09:01Z Shinmera: splittist: qtools should still work fine on windows. 2021-04-14T08:09:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: lukego: *compile-file-warnings-behaviour* I think is the equivalent to -Werror 2021-04-14T08:09:44Z lukego: hey it is actually kind of nice that -Werror is the default. that motivates me to actually dig into problems knowing that other people aren't just leaving them :). here's the screamer warning, I'll dig into it now https://gist.github.com/lukego/1da425f16384bb53f2c416c49d5b6ecd 2021-04-14T08:09:47Z splittist: Shinmera: I get "debugger invoked on a SB-KERNEL::UNDEFINED-ALIEN-FUNCTION-ERROR ... The alien function "sw_find_class" is undefined." 2021-04-14T08:09:56Z Shinmera: :( 2021-04-14T08:09:57Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-14T08:10:20Z lukego: (though if I need to patch screamer that's a problem because my current nix workflow doesn't really support anything but upstream projects from quicklisp..) 2021-04-14T08:12:12Z asarch joined #lisp 2021-04-14T08:12:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is there a good library for extracting only interesting content from an HTML page 2021-04-14T08:12:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: e.g. a readability type thing? 2021-04-14T08:13:01Z lukego: this looks like a pretty clear cut bug in screamer: 2021-04-14T08:13:02Z lukego: (if (vectorp sequence) 2021-04-14T08:13:02Z lukego: (dolist (element sequence) 2021-04-14T08:13:21Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-14T08:13:35Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-04-14T08:13:35Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2021-04-14T08:13:35Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-04-14T08:13:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah 2021-04-14T08:14:05Z jackdaniel: it is written for a special-purpose implementations that represent vectors as lists :) 2021-04-14T08:14:22Z lukego: sounds like something I would do .. 2021-04-14T08:14:31Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-04-14T08:14:37Z asarch: One stupid question: if I had this (:id 30 :username "asarch" :password "xxx-yyy") I could easily get the username with (getf user :username) 2021-04-14T08:14:50Z Shinmera: splittist: if you add a :depends-on for qt-libs first, does that work? 2021-04-14T08:14:55Z jackdaniel: that's not a question 2021-04-14T08:15:36Z asarch: But what if I would have a list of lists with n elements ((:id 1 :username "foo" :password "...") (:id 2 :username "bar" :password "...") ... (:id n :username "baz" :password "...")), how could I easily get the username of the n element? 2021-04-14T08:16:15Z jackdaniel: (getf (nth n your-list) :user) 2021-04-14T08:16:26Z asarch: Do I need to traverse the entire list every time I want a specific element of them? 2021-04-14T08:16:28Z jackdaniel: s/:user/:username/ 2021-04-14T08:16:42Z asarch: Bingo! 2021-04-14T08:16:53Z asarch: Thank you! Thank you very much! :-) 2021-04-14T08:17:18Z pve joined #lisp 2021-04-14T08:17:34Z asarch: But what if I don't know the position of the record? 2021-04-14T08:17:36Z jackdaniel: if you store users on the list and you are not caching results (or add other optimizations) then yes, you traverse the list 2021-04-14T08:17:46Z jackdaniel: then how do you know which username do you want to get? 2021-04-14T08:18:43Z splittist: Shinmera: doesn't qtools already :depends-on qt-libs? The error arises when trying to load the examples. 2021-04-14T08:18:45Z jackdaniel: (find "foo" your-list :key (lambda (o) (getf o :username)) :test #'string=) 2021-04-14T08:18:50Z asarch: All I know is its id, let's say it is 324 and the list is from a query 2021-04-14T08:18:52Z jackdaniel: is one way 2021-04-14T08:19:09Z phoe: asarch: this looks like the ID is some kind of key and everything else is values 2021-04-14T08:19:09Z White_Flame: (getf (find 30 *users* :key (lambda (user) (getf user :id))) :username) 2021-04-14T08:19:19Z phoe: at which point this looks like a hash table use case 2021-04-14T08:19:26Z lukego: (I have to say, reading through the Screamer source once from top to bottom has not really enhanced my enthusiasm for using it) 2021-04-14T08:19:31Z White_Flame: (typed before the last few lines, obviously) 2021-04-14T08:19:40Z jackdaniel: your solution is more complete! 2021-04-14T08:19:46Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-14T08:20:06Z phoe: lukego: https://github.com/nikodemus/screamer/issues/19 2021-04-14T08:20:37Z White_Flame: since the FIND will return NIL on not found, it should all safely collapse to NIL even through the subsequent GETFs 2021-04-14T08:20:39Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2021-04-14T08:20:42Z lukego: phoe: ah! the version issue 2021-04-14T08:21:15Z jackdaniel: another solution (loop for user = (nth (random (length users)) users) when (eq (getf user :id) ) do (return (getf user :username))) ;-] 2021-04-14T08:21:21Z Shinmera: splittist: it does but there's some weird dependency fluke apparently 2021-04-14T08:21:27Z Shinmera: splittist: https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/b3a27e/qtools_the_alien_function_sw_find_class_is/ 2021-04-14T08:22:28Z cchristiansen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-14T08:22:59Z asarch: Thank you very much once again guys :-) 2021-04-14T08:23:04Z splittist: Shinmera: OK. Trying. Thanks! I know you have better things to do. 2021-04-14T08:23:17Z asarch: Have a nice day :-) 2021-04-14T08:23:20Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-14T08:23:22Z jackdaniel: you too, thanks 2021-04-14T08:23:26Z Shinmera: splittist: No no, sorry things aren't working right away :( 2021-04-14T08:23:51Z Shinmera: I also wish I could just recommend Alloy, but it's still very rough. 2021-04-14T08:24:20Z phoe: I had this qtools issue when installing/compiling from scratch; I usually install and compile it, close my image, quickload it again, and then it works 2021-04-14T08:24:42Z phoe: but this only manifests during the very very first installation so I rarely ever reproduce it 2021-04-14T08:25:25Z Shinmera: yeah it's a very elusive bug that I could never quite trace. 2021-04-14T08:25:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, the USE-VALUE restart in slime seems to break everything when it's selected for a PACKAGE-DOES-NOT-EXIST error 2021-04-14T08:26:15Z phoe: huh? what do you mean? 2021-04-14T08:26:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's more complicated than that 2021-04-14T08:26:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm not entirely sure what's going on 2021-04-14T08:27:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, I put https://github.com/ruricolist/cl-boilerpipe into my local projects and then tried to load it 2021-04-14T08:27:30Z phoe: (handler-bind ((sb-ext:package-does-not-exist (lambda (c) (declare (ignore c)) (invoke-restart 'use-value :cl-user)))) (in-package :cl-ooser)) 2021-04-14T08:27:33Z phoe: this works for me 2021-04-14T08:27:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: it complained that the package OPTIMA wasn't found, so I hit 2 to attempt to trick it into using TRIVIA 2021-04-14T08:27:47Z Shinmera: phoe: another ping for your verbose issue 2021-04-14T08:27:54Z phoe: Shinmera: aaaa, yes, thank you 2021-04-14T08:27:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: And slime and everything froze 2021-04-14T08:28:13Z phoe: oooh, like that 2021-04-14T08:28:24Z phoe: might have more complex interactions during compilation 2021-04-14T08:30:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, the backtrace is interesting 2021-04-14T08:30:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: The condition seems to be being signaled while a lock is held 2021-04-14T08:30:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: Inside the processing of a defpackage form 2021-04-14T08:31:16Z lukego: dammit looks like I'll just disable -Werror in asdf because I don't really understand how to apply a patch to Screamer in my current setup 2021-04-14T08:31:49Z jackdaniel: -Cerror 2021-04-14T08:31:52Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-14T08:31:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: lukego: you can always add a file to your project that does IN-PACKAGE and then redefines 2021-04-14T08:31:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: :) 2021-04-14T08:32:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: Here's the backtrace I'm seeing: https://fwoar.co/pastebin/8da8b90c5df10c1116aefccfe888fa7548ef79ce.nil.html 2021-04-14T08:32:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: Now to see if I can come up with a minimal reproducing case 2021-04-14T08:33:42Z lukego: maybe the lowest hanging fruit here would be to somehow get quicklisp to apply patches during installation 2021-04-14T08:33:55Z lukego: anyone have such a mechanism? (asdf-level would be fine too I guess) 2021-04-14T08:35:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: lukego: it's sort of a hack, but you could add a component that's like (:file "patches") 2021-04-14T08:35:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: And just put all the patches into patches.lisp 2021-04-14T08:35:09Z Shinmera: you can build your own quicklisp dist that has different versions of the libraries you want to patch. 2021-04-14T08:35:18Z Shinmera: but that's involved. 2021-04-14T08:35:25Z flip214: lukego: I've just a few local git checkouts with changes in my local-projects 2021-04-14T08:35:26Z lukego: fiddlerwoaroof: but I don't have a private copy of the source tree where the asd file is defined 2021-04-14T08:35:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: Add it to your project's asd 2021-04-14T08:36:01Z lukego: I have a few local git checkouts too but I don't like that because it undermines my pinning and upgrading discpline. but okay that would be an acceptable workaround especially for screamer that's not updating rapidly 2021-04-14T08:36:24Z lukego: fiddlerwoaroof: my project's asd doesn't get loaded because its dependencies have failed to compile 2021-04-14T08:36:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, yeah you'd need to have a second system 2021-04-14T08:37:18Z lukego: I think that patches make sense to me. I'll be meaning to make a series of small temporary changes sparsely spread across various dependencies 2021-04-14T08:37:29Z lukego: lemme see if ql2nix provides an opportunity to patch things neatly 2021-04-14T08:37:39Z splittist: Shinmera: works. Thanks again! 2021-04-14T08:38:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: lukego: https://fwoar.co/pastebin/21e29c594ecc6cb4b7bd2cd57d6b31677c72c511.asd.html 2021-04-14T08:38:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've done something like this a couple times 2021-04-14T08:38:43Z lukego: fiddlerwoaroof: that looks neat but you still needed to patch the .asd file defining example 2021-04-14T08:38:59Z lukego: and at the moment I lack a way to patch my dependnecies 2021-04-14T08:39:32Z Shinmera: splittist: phew! 2021-04-14T08:39:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: Because it's a defsystem-depends-on, it'll be loaded before processing your project's dependencies 2021-04-14T08:40:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html#Defsystem-depends-on 2021-04-14T08:40:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, that won't work either 2021-04-14T08:40:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ignore me :) 2021-04-14T08:41:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: I just realized that I'm assuming the dependency actually loads 2021-04-14T08:44:18Z lukego: you know for now I'll just stop using screamer :) 2021-04-14T08:49:06Z phoe: I can see that nikodemus is not very active 2021-04-14T08:49:28Z phoe: maybe it would be worth to fork screamers to sharplispers and apply the fix there, since it's trivial 2021-04-14T08:49:44Z phoe: Xach: fe[nl]ix: what do you think? 2021-04-14T08:49:51Z phoe: s/screamers/screamer 2021-04-14T08:53:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: nikodemus has basically quit CL, I think 2021-04-14T08:54:29Z scymtym: phoe: sounds good to me. for other projects he created or was involved in (esrap, alexandria), ownership has already been transferred. for esrap, he explicitly blessed the transfer 2021-04-14T09:00:24Z jackdaniel: MetaYan_: do you have any opinion about this? 2021-04-14T09:00:43Z phoe: scymtym: I've sent him a mail so I can also have an explicit blessing 2021-04-14T09:01:08Z phoe: ;; and in case of no response, I'll be happy with an implicit blessing 2021-04-14T09:01:09Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-04-14T09:08:27Z ramHero quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-14T09:08:31Z DHARMAKAYA quit (Quit: Turning off a portion of this simulation.) 2021-04-14T09:12:31Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-14T09:15:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: Does anyone know of a library for extracting metadata from PDFs? 2021-04-14T09:15:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: cl-pdf isn't great for parsing PDFs 2021-04-14T09:18:03Z memories_ left #lisp 2021-04-14T09:22:58Z aartaka_d quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-14T09:23:03Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-04-14T09:24:09Z flip214: fiddlerwoaroof: what kind of metadata are you looking for? 2021-04-14T09:24:54Z flip214: Marc is responsive if you have any feature requests 2021-04-14T09:27:30Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-14T09:31:11Z lukego: Maybe should also hack ASDF to print a user-facing message about upgrading errors to warnings, I found that very confusing 2021-04-14T09:31:40Z lukego: I'm really sorely lacking a workflow to be able to hack on dependencies :-| 2021-04-14T09:33:23Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-14T09:34:57Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-04-14T09:34:57Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2021-04-14T09:35:18Z scymtym quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-14T09:38:22Z lotuseater joined #lisp 2021-04-14T09:42:49Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-04-14T09:44:13Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-14T09:44:14Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-14T09:44:17Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-14T09:44:18Z Noisytoot quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-14T09:44:51Z Adamclisi quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-14T09:45:57Z Noisytoot joined #lisp 2021-04-14T09:46:05Z lukego: I know you all think I'm a bad person for using Serapeum's -> macro to declare function types in design-by-contract style, but I'm finding it really useful in practice, I do a bunch more type checking than I usually would and it catches sloppiness like carelessly returning multiple values 2021-04-14T09:46:48Z phoe: I actually like and dig ftype declarations 2021-04-14T09:50:05Z Adamclisi joined #lisp 2021-04-14T09:51:40Z froggey joined #lisp 2021-04-14T09:51:43Z Elzington quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-14T09:51:46Z Elzington_ joined #lisp 2021-04-14T09:53:05Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2021-04-14T09:53:12Z flip214: sbcl can infer return types by itself (at least sometimes), so declaring argument types already helps quite a lot 2021-04-14T09:53:31Z hhdave joined #lisp 2021-04-14T10:00:06Z vegansbane6963 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-04-14T10:00:23Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2021-04-14T10:00:56Z Nilby: Return type? Suprise me. [too complex to check] 2021-04-14T10:01:55Z lukego: I'm declaring return types now and appreciating the compiler often telling me that I'm carelessly returning multiple values when I only mean to return one 2021-04-14T10:03:54Z White_Flame: flip214: it doesn't do that for non-returning error calls, though 2021-04-14T10:04:02Z Nilby: Unused multiple values are a primary food source for hungry ghosts. 2021-04-14T10:04:31Z White_Flame: (the fixnum (case foo (:a 1) (:b 2) (otherwise (call-error ...)))) will cause SBCL to scream, even though (otherwise (error ...)) is fine 2021-04-14T10:07:24Z Nilby: You never know when error could return: "the kinds of sweeping effects hinted at by this example" 2021-04-14T10:07:33Z zooey quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-14T10:07:56Z zooey joined #lisp 2021-04-14T10:08:53Z White_Flame: that quote is specifically about an implementation being buggy 2021-04-14T10:09:01Z phoe: White_Flame: actually, no 2021-04-14T10:09:10Z phoe: (declaim (ftype (function () nil) foo)) (defun foo () (error "foo")) (defun bar (x) (the fixnum (case x (:a 1) (:b 2) (otherwise (foo))))) 2021-04-14T10:09:13Z phoe: no warnings for me 2021-04-14T10:09:50Z White_Flame: hmm, I've tried (function (&rest t) nil) before, and that did nothing for me 2021-04-14T10:09:53Z White_Flame tries again 2021-04-14T10:11:23Z White_Flame: maybe because this is about a LABELS function and not a DEFUN? 2021-04-14T10:11:59Z phoe: (defun bar (x) (labels ((foo () (error "foo"))) (declare (ftype (function () nil) foo)) (the fixnum (case x (:a 1) (:b 2) (otherwise (foo)))))) 2021-04-14T10:12:03Z phoe: no warnings for me 2021-04-14T10:14:07Z White_Flame: it tells me that my (syntax-error (&rest rest) ..build error string... (error ...)) function has some wrong derived type, not my declared type 2021-04-14T10:14:32Z White_Flame: (declare (ftype (function (&rest t) nil) syntax-error)) 2021-04-14T10:15:27Z jello_pudding quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-14T10:16:39Z White_Flame: "Result is a (VALUES (OR NUMBER (MEMBER :TRUE :NULL :FALSE NIL)) &OPTIONAL), not a CHARACTER." 2021-04-14T10:16:56Z phoe: hmmm 2021-04-14T10:16:59Z phoe: show me the code? 2021-04-14T10:17:13Z White_Flame: it's an internal thing, I'd have to extract it 2021-04-14T10:17:32Z phoe: also, uh 2021-04-14T10:17:36Z phoe: you declare the result type to be NIL 2021-04-14T10:17:46Z phoe: and it complains that it's not a character 2021-04-14T10:17:48Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-04-14T10:17:58Z phoe: are you sure it's the right ftype that you're looking at? 2021-04-14T10:19:07Z White_Flame: yes 2021-04-14T10:19:19Z White_Flame: ==> (SB-C::%FUNCALL #'(LABELS SYNTAX-ERROR .... 2021-04-14T10:19:39Z phoe: please extract it then, I'm genuinely curious 2021-04-14T10:19:52Z White_Flame: ok, I'll PM 2021-04-14T10:20:03Z White_Flame: whenI do 2021-04-14T10:20:33Z flip214: for phoe's BAR I get Derived type: (FUNCTION (T) (VALUES (INTEGER 1 2) &OPTIONAL)) 2021-04-14T10:20:50Z flip214: even if I remove the DECLARE 2021-04-14T10:21:35Z flip214: (defun bar2 (x) (the fixnum (case x (:a 1) (:b 2) (otherwise (error "foo"))))) 2021-04-14T10:21:42Z flip214: Derived type: (FUNCTION (T) (VALUES (INTEGER 1 2) &OPTIONAL)) 2021-04-14T10:21:52Z jello_pudding joined #lisp 2021-04-14T10:21:52Z flip214: no magic needed at all 2021-04-14T10:22:07Z phoe: yes, but I assume that White_Flame has a SYNTAX-ERROR call instead of ERROR 2021-04-14T10:22:11Z phoe: which is an indirection 2021-04-14T10:22:21Z White_Flame: right 2021-04-14T10:22:27Z phoe: where SYNTAX-ERROR is some custom function 2021-04-14T10:22:36Z mokulus joined #lisp 2021-04-14T10:22:43Z White_Flame: and of course a simple extraction of just syntax-error and a single use doesn't trip the error 2021-04-14T10:22:48Z White_Flame: it just builds up a more complex error string 2021-04-14T10:24:13Z flip214: If I move the (ERROR ...) out into another function (not even a LABELS) and use it in OTHERWISE, the result is the same 2021-04-14T10:24:36Z flip214: but perhaps this is so small that inlining just makes it the same 2021-04-14T10:25:05Z White_Flame: ah, I was able to trip it... 2021-04-14T10:25:19Z flip214: BAR-ERROR names a compiled function: 2021-04-14T10:25:19Z flip214: Derived type: (FUNCTION (T) NIL) 2021-04-14T10:25:19Z flip214: Source form: (LAMBDA (X) (BLOCK BAR-ERROR (ERROR X))) 2021-04-14T10:25:32Z flip214: also derived result type NIL here 2021-04-14T10:25:59Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-04-14T10:26:13Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-04-14T10:27:02Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-14T10:27:22Z White_Flame: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2387#2387 2021-04-14T10:27:27Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-04-14T10:27:40Z scymtym joined #lisp 2021-04-14T10:27:56Z White_Flame: so the :true return value is leaking into the syntax-error derivation for some reason 2021-04-14T10:28:07Z White_Flame: might be a bug? 2021-04-14T10:28:18Z White_Flame: or is there legitimacy in that reasoning? 2021-04-14T10:28:59Z flip214: Derived type: (FUNCTION (T) (VALUES (MEMBER :TRUE) &OPTIONAL)) 2021-04-14T10:29:12Z phoe: what is your SBCL version and compiler policy? 2021-04-14T10:29:14Z phoe: I can't reproduce this 2021-04-14T10:29:35Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-14T10:29:40Z White_Flame: This is SBCL 2.1.3.50-e8b780650 2021-04-14T10:29:46Z phoe: 2.1.0 does not complain 2021-04-14T10:30:03Z phoe: let me upgrade to 2.1.3 2021-04-14T10:30:04Z flip214: White_Flame: the :TRUE is for (eq key :foo) - the error path doesn't return any value 2021-04-14T10:30:25Z White_Flame: flip214: it's saying that syntax-error returns :true 2021-04-14T10:30:36Z White_Flame: or am I reading it wrong? 2021-04-14T10:30:36Z flip214: how do you see that? 2021-04-14T10:30:49Z White_Flame: the complaint is for get-num's usage, when read-something's definition is present 2021-04-14T10:30:58Z flip214: I have no complaints from sbcl 2021-04-14T10:31:15Z phoe: flip214: what is your SBCL version? 2021-04-14T10:31:18Z flip214: 2.1.3 2021-04-14T10:31:33Z phoe: hmmmm, might be a new regression then? 2021-04-14T10:31:33Z White_Flame: annotated: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2387#2388 2021-04-14T10:31:39Z phoe: #sbcl will want to know about it in that case 2021-04-14T10:31:55Z White_Flame: ok 2021-04-14T10:32:20Z phoe: yes, that's invalid, SYNTAX-ERROR neither returns (member :true) nor is supposed to return a fixnum 2021-04-14T10:32:42Z phoe: so that's some heavy type confusion 2021-04-14T10:34:01Z phoe: oh wait, the FIXNUM is from the THE call 2021-04-14T10:34:13Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-14T10:34:20Z phoe: OK, so it's just SYNTAX-ERROR having an incorrect type 2021-04-14T10:39:29Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-04-14T10:49:56Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-04-14T10:53:19Z troydm quit (Quit: What is Hope? That all of your wishes and all of your dreams come true? To turn back time because things were not supposed to happen like that (C) Rau Le Creuset) 2021-04-14T10:54:00Z edgar-rft: where (the fixnum ... (error ...)) IMO is a buggy type declaration, because (error ...) is defined to return *no* values and therefore cannot be a fixnum 2021-04-14T10:55:38Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-04-14T10:55:38Z flip214: edgar-rft: if it can't ever return, there cannot be a type conflict with the return value (because there is none) 2021-04-14T10:57:40Z elderK quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-04-14T10:58:19Z ebrasca: What are Deprecated Functions? ( http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/01_ha.htm ) 2021-04-14T11:00:18Z phoe: edgar-rft: NIL is a subtype of FIXNUM 2021-04-14T11:01:18Z edgar-rft: ebrasca: functions that were marked as deprecated in 1994 but still exist in 2021 2021-04-14T11:01:31Z edgar-rft: phoe: true, thank you! 2021-04-14T11:01:49Z ebrasca: edgar-rft: Is it ok to use them? 2021-04-14T11:01:53Z phoe: ebrasca: yes 2021-04-14T11:02:10Z phoe: edgar-rft: also, "defined to return no values" would have a return type of (values) 2021-04-14T11:02:30Z phoe: a return type of NIL means elsething - that it does not return at all 2021-04-14T11:02:33Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-04-14T11:03:20Z phoe: these two are highly distinct because a return type of (values) implies that the function is allowed to return at all in the general case 2021-04-14T11:03:55Z phoe: and you don't ever want #'ERROR (or #'INVOKE-DEBUGGER for the matter) to return at all 2021-04-14T11:03:56Z White_Flame: (good, that confirms my assumptions in reading these types) 2021-04-14T11:05:37Z edgar-rft: ebrasca: don't worry too much, in a hypothetical CL 2.0 standard (that is unlikely to happen) there might be a dicussion about that :-) 2021-04-14T11:06:13Z edgar-rft: White_Flame: sorry, I was wrong and phoe is right 2021-04-14T11:07:25Z phoe: function return types are real tricky 2021-04-14T11:11:36Z klltkr joined #lisp 2021-04-14T11:13:11Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-14T11:17:15Z ebrasca: What about CL 1.5 ? 2021-04-14T11:19:11Z jackdaniel: and if that's too much, what about CL 1.0.0.0.1? 2021-04-14T11:20:00Z mokulus quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-04-14T11:20:39Z ebrasca: I was referencing Lisp 1.5 2021-04-14T11:21:02Z phoe: that's a blast from the past 2021-04-14T11:21:13Z edgar-rft: Lisp 1.5 was at least three decades before Common Lisp 2021-04-14T11:21:53Z ebrasca: I am sure if we make CL 1.5 we are going to have CL 2.0 2021-04-14T11:22:05Z refpga joined #lisp 2021-04-14T11:23:18Z no-defun-allowed: Lisp was so good they never made Lisp 2: 2021-04-14T11:26:39Z edgar-rft: Common Lisp is a Lisp-n, so it's far ahead of its time 2021-04-14T11:27:53Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-04-14T11:29:51Z Xach: Lisp-nFinity 2021-04-14T11:30:21Z phoe: Lisp-#.(ackermann n n) 2021-04-14T11:30:50Z ebrasca: If CL is Lisp-n , why we don't have algol syntax? 2021-04-14T11:31:47Z no-defun-allowed: "Lisp 2" there refers to a hypothetical successor to the original Lisp (which never happened). Usually Lisp-n refers to the number of namespaces of things that the language manipulates. 2021-04-14T11:32:22Z no-defun-allowed: edgar-rft probably lost count of how many of such namespaces there are in Common Lisp, so wrote Lisp-n with a free variable. 2021-04-14T11:32:47Z phoe: there's also the fact that namespaces are user-definable, so n must be a free variable 2021-04-14T11:33:36Z ebrasca: Why someone need to define new namespaces? 2021-04-14T11:33:46Z edgar-rft: are there also proprietarily owned variables? 2021-04-14T11:33:57Z phoe: because they have new classes of things that need to be named 2021-04-14T11:34:08Z edgar-rft: or enslaved variables? 2021-04-14T11:34:15Z phoe: think of e.g. test suites, or test cases inside those test suites 2021-04-14T11:34:24Z phoe: or of ASDF systems 2021-04-14T11:34:26Z ebrasca: I don't understand. 2021-04-14T11:34:38Z phoe: (ql:quickload :alexandria) 2021-04-14T11:34:51Z phoe: :alexandria designates an ASDF system named "alexandria" 2021-04-14T11:34:57Z phoe: and "alexandria" is a name in the ASDF system namespace 2021-04-14T11:35:03Z phoe: that, obviously, is not a part of the CL standard 2021-04-14T11:35:12Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-04-14T11:35:25Z jackdaniel is collecting infinity conses 2021-04-14T11:35:26Z no-defun-allowed: edgar-rft: You are thinking of bound variables. 2021-04-14T11:35:37Z edgar-rft: :-) 2021-04-14T11:35:52Z no-defun-allowed: A crucial part of design-by-contract, where they are legally bound to certain terms and conditions of course. 2021-04-14T11:36:27Z phoe: CL variables can be unbound but not unbounded 2021-04-14T11:36:28Z ebrasca: How I can see this ASDF namespace? 2021-04-14T11:36:41Z phoe: ebrasca: the same way you can see other namespaces 2021-04-14T11:36:49Z ebrasca: How? 2021-04-14T11:37:03Z phoe: the simplest tools are asdf:find-system and asdf:defsystem 2021-04-14T11:37:17Z phoe: see the similarity to cl:find-package and cl:defpackage 2021-04-14T11:39:44Z edgar-rft: LIST-ALL-PACKAGES returns a list of all currently defined packages if that helps 2021-04-14T11:41:35Z phoe: seems like ASDF does not have a LIST-ALL-SYSTEMS function, hm 2021-04-14T11:41:41Z phoe: but this works, (let ((x '())) (asdf:map-systems (lambda (y) (push (asdf:component-name y) x))) x) 2021-04-14T11:41:57Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-04-14T11:43:04Z ebrasca: I can have "asd" as function , variable , package , test case ... 2021-04-14T11:43:13Z phoe: sort of kind of 2021-04-14T11:43:24Z phoe: you can't have "asd" as a function because the function namespace is named by symbols 2021-04-14T11:43:27Z phoe: not strings 2021-04-14T11:43:49Z phoe: that's the difference: some namespaces have distinct name types 2021-04-14T11:45:16Z troydm joined #lisp 2021-04-14T11:47:22Z Lycurgus: phoe, I was wondering about the price anomalies on your book 2021-04-14T11:47:33Z Cthulhux quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-04-14T11:48:03Z Lycurgus: (used, kindle costing more than new) 2021-04-14T11:48:08Z JohnMS_WORK quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2021-04-14T11:48:21Z phoe: Lycurgus: I am absolutely unaware of them and I cannot provide any reasoning beacuse of that 2021-04-14T11:48:30Z phoe: I'd need to ask Apress, and I can if you provide me with some data 2021-04-14T11:48:41Z Lycurgus: on amazon 2021-04-14T11:49:09Z phoe: from what I last checked, used likely cost more because they are sold by shops that are not in Amazon's direct shipping reach 2021-04-14T11:49:34Z ebrasca: phoe: Did you make a book? 2021-04-14T11:49:36Z phoe: which is weird because apress ships worldwide, but on the other hand resellers still exist and make money 2021-04-14T11:49:40Z phoe: minion: tell ebrasca about tclcs 2021-04-14T11:49:40Z minion: ebrasca: tclcs: The Common Lisp Condition System, https://www.apress.com/us/book/9781484261330 2021-04-14T11:49:58Z rodriga joined #lisp 2021-04-14T11:50:16Z Cthulhux joined #lisp 2021-04-14T11:50:22Z Lycurgus: ah, thought something of that sort 2021-04-14T11:51:42Z phoe: Lycurgus: I have no idea about Kindle though! (I don't use it myself) 2021-04-14T11:52:08Z Lycurgus: it's basically just pdf for the amazon reader 2021-04-14T11:52:46Z Lycurgus: generally the kindle version is substantially less often less than half the hardcopy 2021-04-14T11:55:02Z Lycurgus: actually it might be epub or whatever 2021-04-14T11:55:10Z daphnis joined #lisp 2021-04-14T11:58:25Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-04-14T12:06:16Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-14T12:07:20Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-14T12:15:08Z nij quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-14T12:18:16Z nij joined #lisp 2021-04-14T12:19:49Z nij: Good morning! I have a lisp file to be run automatically. However, on some machine I don't have certain package, so the symbol PACKAGE:FUN1 may cause an error even at READ time. A workaround is to use (funcall (find-symbol "fun1" "PACKAGE")) instead.. but that means I have to change all of PACKAGE:FUN1 to that long stuff.. is there any better workaround? 2021-04-14T12:20:57Z phoe: wait a second, if you don't have package named PACKAGE then FIND-SYMBOL will signal an error anyway 2021-04-14T12:21:02Z phoe: except at runtime 2021-04-14T12:22:24Z nij: Oh, I did put that into a (when (ignore-errors (ql:quickload :PACKAGE)) [here]) 2021-04-14T12:22:39Z phoe: the bug is that you actually use ignore-errors 2021-04-14T12:23:00Z phoe: the system is not loaded until runtime, so you do not have its symbols at read-time. 2021-04-14T12:23:27Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-04-14T12:23:34Z phoe: quick and dirty workaround: at the top of your file, (eval-always (ql:quickload :package)) 2021-04-14T12:23:47Z phoe: actual solution: use proper ASDF dependencies 2021-04-14T12:24:05Z refpga quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-14T12:24:16Z Bike: it sounded like nij wanted the code to not necessarily be dependent on the system 2021-04-14T12:24:22Z nij: for the second solution, i do expect on some machine there won't be PACKAGE 2021-04-14T12:24:25Z Bike: and asdf doesn't really do optional dependencies as far as i remember 2021-04-14T12:24:32Z phoe: oh, like that 2021-04-14T12:24:39Z phoe: then you need to conditionally quickload anyway 2021-04-14T12:24:49Z nij: (if has-package load! do-nothing!) 2021-04-14T12:24:50Z phoe: IGNORE-ERRORS kinda solves that issue but it's dirty 2021-04-14T12:25:06Z phoe: this sounds like a case for reader conditionals then 2021-04-14T12:25:20Z nij: (when (ignore-errors (ql:quickload :PACKAGE)) (package:fun1)) => ERROR! 2021-04-14T12:25:38Z phoe: yes, this is because the reader does not have the package PACKAGE at read-time 2021-04-14T12:25:42Z nij: Because it was trying to READ package:fun1 at READ time, which causes the problem. 2021-04-14T12:25:44Z nij: yes 2021-04-14T12:26:15Z nij: I have lots of package:fun1 in that file.. and changing them all to (find-symbol "fun1" "PACKAGE") seems a little bit dirty and ugly. 2021-04-14T12:26:31Z nij: (let alone funcall) 2021-04-14T12:26:38Z phoe: can you extract that into another file and only load it when the system in question is found? 2021-04-14T12:26:45Z phoe: since I think will be the easiest 2021-04-14T12:26:51Z phoe: s/will/that will/ 2021-04-14T12:26:51Z nij: OH that could do! 2021-04-14T12:27:18Z nij: a bit less idealistic though.. 2021-04-14T12:27:25Z nij: i hope the code and the condition is presented together 2021-04-14T12:27:33Z nij: I will do that if there's no better solution.. 2021-04-14T12:27:55Z phoe: you could hack your way around using reader conditionals instead 2021-04-14T12:28:12Z nij: or should i write a macro that replaces any (package:fun1 body..) into (funcall (package:fun1 body..))? 2021-04-14T12:28:24Z phoe: you can't do it with a macro 2021-04-14T12:28:29Z phoe: macroexpansion time happens after read time 2021-04-14T12:28:46Z nij: oh yes.. duh 2021-04-14T12:29:10Z daphnis: what is a way to avoid repetition in cond, when all tests are, say, whether the same value is a member of various lists? 2021-04-14T12:29:25Z phoe: ugly stuff like #+#.(when (asdf:find-system :foo) '(and) '(or)) could possibly work 2021-04-14T12:29:32Z phoe: daphnis: alexandria:switch with a custom test 2021-04-14T12:32:55Z phoe: !!! 2021-04-14T12:33:03Z phoe: I just found a bug in alexandria:switch 2021-04-14T12:33:18Z jackdaniel: witch! 2021-04-14T12:33:42Z daphnis: phoe: thanks 2021-04-14T12:33:50Z nij: !!! 2021-04-14T12:33:53Z phoe: daphnis: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2389#2389 2021-04-14T12:34:12Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-14T12:34:15Z phoe: try to replace the lambda with (alexandria:rcurry #'member :test #'equal) and watch the world burn. 2021-04-14T12:34:39Z nij: I tried #+#.(ql:quickload :recording) t => error! 2021-04-14T12:34:52Z phoe: nij: reader conditionals work differently 2021-04-14T12:34:54Z nij: (no :RECORDING is there) 2021-04-14T12:35:32Z nij: Oh I see. 2021-04-14T12:36:46Z nij: #+#.(when (asdf:find-system :foo) '(and) '(or)) => error! 2021-04-14T12:37:15Z jackdaniel: does alexandria claim that test is evaluated? 2021-04-14T12:38:20Z phoe: unspecified 2021-04-14T12:39:19Z jackdaniel: defaulting to (quote eql) certainly makes such impression though 2021-04-14T12:39:32Z phoe: it only supports extracting QUOTE and FUNCTION via manual intervention 2021-04-14T12:39:39Z phoe: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/alexandria/alexandria/-/blob/master/alexandria-1/control-flow.lisp#L3-9 2021-04-14T12:40:08Z phoe: why would it do that instead of doing an explicit ONCE-ONLY on the test and then FUNCALLing it though? 2021-04-14T12:41:10Z jackdaniel: funcalling things may have a certain performance penalty 2021-04-14T12:41:31Z jackdaniel: because not-sufficiently-smart-compiler will resolve the function at runtime 2021-04-14T12:42:05Z phoe: in this case, alexandria:switch could be smart and only resolve to FUNCALL if the test is a list whose CAR is neither QUOTE nor FUNCTION 2021-04-14T12:42:06Z jackdaniel: that said this probably should be smarter, like: atom - return spec, cons and (quite function) - extract, just cons - evaluate 2021-04-14T12:42:22Z jackdaniel: sure, I'm just guessing why it is written the way it is 2021-04-14T12:42:24Z phoe: yes 2021-04-14T12:42:35Z jackdaniel: lunch came, later \o 2021-04-14T12:42:45Z phoe: cya 2021-04-14T12:43:09Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-04-14T12:45:13Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-14T12:45:20Z jrm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-14T12:45:27Z jrm2 joined #lisp 2021-04-14T12:46:09Z jrm2 is now known as jrm 2021-04-14T12:47:27Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-04-14T12:52:44Z nij: What's the cleanest way to alias #'f to #'g? 2021-04-14T12:53:04Z Bike: (setf (fdefinition 'f) (fdefinition 'g)) 2021-04-14T12:53:58Z igemnace quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-14T12:54:29Z nij: hmm.. error: G is undefined 2021-04-14T12:55:27Z Bike: er, did i misunderstand the direction, here? 2021-04-14T12:55:38Z _death: (rotatef (cadr form) (caddr form)) 2021-04-14T12:55:41Z Bike: do you want to make F an alias for an existing G function, or the other way around? 2021-04-14T12:55:58Z nij: oh the other way around works.. my english is the bug 2021-04-14T12:57:32Z nicktick joined #lisp 2021-04-14T13:00:52Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-14T13:05:11Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-14T13:08:19Z amontero joined #lisp 2021-04-14T13:09:08Z nij: Hmm.. can I connect to a swank/slynk server from a running sbcl repl? 2021-04-14T13:09:37Z nij: Normally we have to go to emacs and `M-x sly-connect`.. but sometimes I want to hop into a server in a living repl. 2021-04-14T13:10:20Z amontero quit (Client Quit) 2021-04-14T13:10:27Z Bike: i don't understand 2021-04-14T13:10:41Z Bike: it's emacs that connects to swank/slynk. sbcl _runs_ a swank/slynk server 2021-04-14T13:11:11Z nij: yes.. say we have two sbcl repls. r1 and r2. 2021-04-14T13:11:30Z nij: In r1 I launch a swank server. I want to connect to it in r2.. 2021-04-14T13:11:57Z Bike: i mean it's emacs/slime/whatever it is for slynk that does the connection 2021-04-14T13:12:06Z Bike: that is an emacs program. it is not a lisp program. it doesn't run in sbcl 2021-04-14T13:12:15Z Bike: i don't think there is a lisp version of the client 2021-04-14T13:13:07Z nij: i see :( 2021-04-14T13:13:28Z Bike: i mean, it woudl be weird conceptually, right? it's not like an sbcl repl is a text editor 2021-04-14T13:14:11Z hiroaki_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-14T13:14:21Z _death: well, it could be useful.. with climacs or whatever 2021-04-14T13:14:31Z mrchampion quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-14T13:14:33Z Alfr: nij, as a work around, you could securely forward the port swank/slynk listens on to a machine where you have emacs. 2021-04-14T13:14:35Z nij: For an sbcl to subsume shell.. I think this is needed? 2021-04-14T13:15:05Z Bike: well a shell is still not a text editor 2021-04-14T13:15:16Z Bike: maybe i don't understand what you mean 2021-04-14T13:15:54Z nij: i just hope that we can control one repl from another repl 2021-04-14T13:16:15Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-04-14T13:16:35Z _death: in fact looks like someone already did some work https://github.com/lem-project/lem/blob/master/modes/lisp-mode/swank-protocol.lisp 2021-04-14T13:16:36Z Bike: you could set up your own socket code to do so, though i'm not immediately sure of the point 2021-04-14T13:17:00Z Bike: man, there are kind of a lot of lisp editor projects, aren't there 2021-04-14T13:17:57Z Bike: but the slime/swank protocol is set up for editors so a lot of it won't make sense where you have a repl instead of an editor 2021-04-14T13:18:00Z beach: But don't they all do roughly the same thing? 2021-04-14T13:18:03Z luckless quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-14T13:18:12Z Bike: the editors? sure, i guess, they edit 2021-04-14T13:18:31Z beach: They "just" edit. 2021-04-14T13:19:42Z Bike: i haven't used lem so i don't know what features it does or doesn't have 2021-04-14T13:19:55Z Alfr: ... on their own and spit out what you wish for? I still waiting for that one. :D 2021-04-14T13:19:59Z amontero joined #lisp 2021-04-14T13:20:10Z Alfr: s/I/I'm/ 2021-04-14T13:21:12Z amontero quit (Client Quit) 2021-04-14T13:23:31Z phoe: Bike: there is 2021-04-14T13:23:40Z phoe: https://github.com/brown/swank-client/ 2021-04-14T13:23:56Z Bike: alright then. there you go, nij 2021-04-14T13:24:07Z phoe: along with swank-crew and lfarm for better distributed protocol 2021-04-14T13:24:11Z phoe: s/protocol/computing/ 2021-04-14T13:24:26Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-14T13:24:30Z phoe: you can use the swank protocol for CL↔CL communication just fine this way 2021-04-14T13:25:08Z Bike: using an editor protocol for rpc seems like overkill to me. i guess it's easier than developing a smaller protocol and convincing people to implement it 2021-04-14T13:25:39Z nij is in search of a slynk-client 2021-04-14T13:26:03Z phoe: it avoids the NIH syndrome - there is already a battle-tested protocol and a battle-tested server, so why not 2021-04-14T13:27:14Z jackdaniel: there was a clim implementation of this protocol (for climacs) - afair its name was "SWINE" ^_^ 2021-04-14T13:29:24Z no-defun-allowed: Does it run in Wine? Then can I debug that combination from a lispm on EINE? 2021-04-14T13:29:45Z jackdaniel: sure it does 2021-04-14T13:30:54Z layerex joined #lisp 2021-04-14T13:31:30Z nij: im afraid there's no slynk equivalent of swank-client. 2021-04-14T13:31:36Z nij: jeez time to learn swank :D :D 2021-04-14T13:31:58Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-14T13:32:06Z phoe: actually 2021-04-14T13:32:16Z phoe: https://github.com/joaotavora/sly/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md#swank-is-now-called-slynk 2021-04-14T13:32:32Z hiroaki_ joined #lisp 2021-04-14T13:32:51Z phoe: sly speaks the swank protocol 2021-04-14T13:32:59Z phoe: and swank-client is explicitly mentioned there 2021-04-14T13:33:05Z phoe: which is good news for you 2021-04-14T13:34:02Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-04-14T13:34:10Z nij: OH great. Lemme see :-D 2021-04-14T13:36:44Z nikolayclfx quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-04-14T13:41:08Z CrashTestDummy quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-14T13:43:40Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-14T13:48:57Z indathrone quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-04-14T13:51:40Z nij quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-14T13:54:07Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-14T13:54:33Z CrashTestDummy joined #lisp 2021-04-14T13:55:40Z msk joined #lisp 2021-04-14T13:59:11Z hjudt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-14T14:00:10Z msk quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-14T14:02:52Z amontero joined #lisp 2021-04-14T14:06:35Z CrashTestDummy quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-14T14:06:57Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2021-04-14T14:09:03Z amontero quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-04-14T14:11:40Z Posterdati quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-14T14:13:16Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2021-04-14T14:16:59Z mrchampion joined #lisp 2021-04-14T14:17:44Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-14T14:22:24Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp 2021-04-14T14:26:47Z attila_lendvai: any ASDF experts? i'd like to avoid perform'ing an operation if the output file exists (i.e. regardless of the modification time). any hints? overriding operation-done-p seems to be not enough. 2021-04-14T14:29:09Z CrashTestDummy joined #lisp 2021-04-14T14:31:21Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-04-14T14:33:04Z flip214: sorry, I can only offer an opposite hint - if you want to rebuild always, (on linux) you can use a dependency like /proc/stat which is always "current" 2021-04-14T14:33:15Z flip214: attila_lendvai: can you compare the output file's timestamp to itself? 2021-04-14T14:34:23Z ramHero joined #lisp 2021-04-14T14:34:25Z attila_lendvai: flip214, my issue is that i don't know what part of ASDF i should hook into. op-done-p is not even called if the input file's mod time is earlier 2021-04-14T14:35:16Z flip214: can you make input file == output file? 2021-04-14T14:36:09Z neirac joined #lisp 2021-04-14T14:41:33Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-04-14T14:44:50Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-04-14T14:44:55Z OlCe joined #lisp 2021-04-14T14:45:08Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-04-14T14:50:26Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-14T14:55:28Z srhm joined #lisp 2021-04-14T14:55:40Z dyelar joined #lisp 2021-04-14T14:56:59Z hypercube joined #lisp 2021-04-14T14:59:24Z luckless joined #lisp 2021-04-14T15:06:12Z hypercube quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-14T15:13:26Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2021-04-14T15:14:47Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-04-14T15:19:20Z daphnis: how do i turn '((a b) (c d)) into '(a b c d)? 2021-04-14T15:19:51Z beach: daphnis: (reduce #'append '((a b) (c d)) :from-end t) 2021-04-14T15:21:44Z phoe: or (a:mappend #'identity '((a b) (c d))) 2021-04-14T15:21:52Z phoe: but that's only because I like mappend 2021-04-14T15:22:31Z phoe: Xach: nikodemus replied! I'll make a private fork first, submit some PRs, and then request him to transfer the repository over to sharplispers 2021-04-14T15:22:50Z beach: phoe: How is mappend implemented? 2021-04-14T15:23:14Z phoe: beach: (loop for results in (apply #'mapcar function lists) append results) 2021-04-14T15:23:42Z beach: That will work. 2021-04-14T15:23:49Z phoe: I assume that LOOP APPEND is smart enough to do :from-end t automatically for optimization 2021-04-14T15:23:53Z beach: yeah. 2021-04-14T15:23:59Z beach: Pretty sure. 2021-04-14T15:24:35Z phoe: _death: I see you have some screamer changes that have not been mainstreamed, should I take a look at them? 2021-04-14T15:25:53Z daphnis: beach: thanks! 2021-04-14T15:25:59Z beach: Pleasure. 2021-04-14T15:28:09Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-14T15:30:15Z daphnis: from-end is faster? 2021-04-14T15:30:47Z phoe: yes 2021-04-14T15:30:57Z beach: If you don't to :FROM-END T then you have a quadratic algorithm. 2021-04-14T15:31:03Z phoe: it conses O(n) conses rather than O(n²)--- yes 2021-04-14T15:31:44Z splittist: phoe: if you're reaching for alexandria, why not a:flatten ? (: 2021-04-14T15:31:47Z phoe: note that if your lists are fresh and mutable rather than literal/quoted/immutable, you can NCONC them instead of APPENDing, and you'll cons nothing 2021-04-14T15:32:03Z phoe: splittist: will break in case of nested lists since it'll flatten them all 2021-04-14T15:32:10Z phoe: I got bitten by that once 2021-04-14T15:32:27Z beach: phoe: yes, but without :from-end t, you still have to traverse a quadratic number of times. 2021-04-14T15:32:43Z phoe: beach: oh right, it'll be both O(n²) space and memory 2021-04-14T15:33:05Z phoe: or rather, the latter will be reclaimable by the GC because the intermediate conses will be collectable 2021-04-14T15:33:10Z phoe: but still, this produces GC pressure 2021-04-14T15:33:35Z beach is lost. But that could be because of the time of day. 2021-04-14T15:33:43Z phoe: don't mind me 2021-04-14T15:33:44Z beach: "space and memory"? 2021-04-14T15:33:54Z phoe: time and memory, sorry 2021-04-14T15:34:46Z attila_lendvai_ joined #lisp 2021-04-14T15:34:58Z beach: So APPEND without :FROM-END T is quadratic in consing and traversal. NCONC without :FROM-END T is quadratic in traversal only. 2021-04-14T15:36:09Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-04-14T15:36:17Z phoe: oh right! I was thinking APPLY rather than REDUCE, you're right 2021-04-14T15:36:29Z phoe: REDUCE will work better. 2021-04-14T15:36:49Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-04-14T15:36:52Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-04-14T15:37:11Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-14T15:42:10Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-04-14T15:42:21Z long4mud quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-04-14T15:44:38Z DanklyTuned joined #lisp 2021-04-14T15:47:52Z _death: phoe: yeah, I think they make sense 2021-04-14T15:48:33Z phoe: I see that nikodemus just reverted the SBCL change because it broke on clisp for whatever reason 2021-04-14T15:48:43Z phoe: the one with redefinition warnings 2021-04-14T15:49:01Z phoe: wouldn't it make more sense to prevent duplicate definitions from being generated in the first place? 2021-04-14T15:49:04Z phoe: (if possible) 2021-04-14T15:52:59Z _death: it's always possible, but would not be worthwhile in this case 2021-04-14T15:54:06Z phoe: we depend on implementation-defined behavior if we actually do generate multiple definitions 2021-04-14T15:54:20Z phoe: this can sort of work, but also is a portability quirk 2021-04-14T15:55:54Z chipolux joined #lisp 2021-04-14T15:56:16Z _death: screamer has a good reason for redefining them (when it realizes they are nondeterministic as they call nondeterministic functions that are defined later) 2021-04-14T15:56:50Z phoe: yes, I see 2021-04-14T15:56:51Z _death: iirc it's not implementation-defined behavior.. check the clhs reference I gave 2021-04-14T15:58:03Z _death: I don't know how it breaks on clisp (I've not checked it) 2021-04-14T15:58:06Z phoe: it's unspecified - CLHS defines that as "unpredictable but harmless" 2021-04-14T15:58:34Z _death: clhs 3.2.2.3 2021-04-14T15:58:35Z specbot: Semantic Constraints: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_bbc.htm 2021-04-14T15:58:45Z phoe: and that implementations are permitted to specify the consequences, and that portable code must not depend on the results or effects of that situation 2021-04-14T15:59:00Z phoe: "The consequences are unspecified if functions are redefined individually at run time or multiply defined in the same file." 2021-04-14T15:59:32Z phoe: I kinda wonder what "harmless" means in this concrete context 2021-04-14T16:00:45Z phoe: since they are also "unpredictable", so in theory two DEFUN FOO in one file can cause... yes, what exactly is permitted? 2021-04-14T16:01:08Z _death: where is the word "harmless"? 2021-04-14T16:01:19Z phoe: clhs 1.4.2 2021-04-14T16:01:19Z specbot: Error Terminology: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/01_db.htm 2021-04-14T16:01:21Z _death: in the definition of "unspecified"? 2021-04-14T16:01:24Z phoe: "The consequences are unspecified" 2021-04-14T16:01:53Z Bike: this seems like kind of a vague definition. 2021-04-14T16:02:25Z phoe: sure it is, because when we have two DEFUN FOOs in a row then what exactly does it mean that it's "unpredictable" to have stuff like that 2021-04-14T16:03:00Z phoe: because unpredictability itself in such a case is anything but harmless if e.g. we completely skip the second DEFUN FOO 2021-04-14T16:03:28Z phoe: which, naïvely looking, seems to be permitted? 2021-04-14T16:03:49Z _death: I don't remember what prompted me to make that change.. possibly an SBCL warning 2021-04-14T16:04:03Z phoe: I think so, yes, SBCL complains about multiple definitions 2021-04-14T16:04:28Z phoe: it produces full warnings for that 2021-04-14T16:04:48Z marusich quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-14T16:05:12Z _death: and why does clisp fail? 2021-04-14T16:05:22Z MetaYan_: jackdaniel: I just noticed that you were asking for my opinion about something earlier today, but even after reading the backlog, I still can't figure out what about... 2021-04-14T16:05:27Z _death: (with my change.. presumably it doesn't fail so hard without?) 2021-04-14T16:05:37Z phoe: _death: I have no idea! nikodemus will know 2021-04-14T16:05:54Z phoe: all I know is https://github.com/nikodemus/screamer/pull/20 2021-04-14T16:06:00Z bilegeek joined #lisp 2021-04-14T16:06:33Z phoe: perhaps it's because the HANDLER-BIND-wrapped DEFUN is no longer toplevel 2021-04-14T16:07:07Z phoe: which shouldn't really matter, because of the EVAL-ALWAYS... huh 2021-04-14T16:08:41Z _death: ok, I tried loading it with clisp 2021-04-14T16:08:48Z _death: @3728>: there is no package with name #1="SB-EXT" 2021-04-14T16:09:05Z _death: but that may be from another commit 2021-04-14T16:09:10Z phoe: wait, sb-ext? where 2021-04-14T16:09:15Z phoe: yes, must be some other commit 2021-04-14T16:09:43Z _death: yeah, another of my commits.. I'll conditionalize on #+sbcl for now 2021-04-14T16:09:48Z phoe: oh, yes, I see it now 2021-04-14T16:10:10Z _death: otherwise, it loads successfully 2021-04-14T16:10:30Z phoe: I asked for the concrete compilation error in the PR 2021-04-14T16:10:48Z _death: it wants stefil for the tests.. hmm 2021-04-14T16:11:22Z waleee-cl joined #lisp 2021-04-14T16:11:51Z _death: test-screamer returns T 2021-04-14T16:12:35Z _death: hopefully nikodemus will elaborate 2021-04-14T16:12:41Z phoe: yes 2021-04-14T16:16:33Z _death: not sure the tests cover that code.. I have some screamer code, but may or may not load on clisp without effort 2021-04-14T16:17:25Z long4mud joined #lisp 2021-04-14T16:18:23Z _death: eh, clisp backtraces look crappy with slime.. and no frame-source-location implementation 2021-04-14T16:19:24Z gitgood joined #lisp 2021-04-14T16:19:53Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-04-14T16:21:08Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2021-04-14T16:21:18Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-04-14T16:23:49Z DHARMAKAYA joined #lisp 2021-04-14T16:26:05Z DHARMAKAYA quit (Client Quit) 2021-04-14T16:26:32Z DanklyTuned quit (Quit: nyaa~) 2021-04-14T16:27:36Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-14T16:27:39Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-04-14T16:28:17Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-04-14T16:28:20Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-04-14T16:28:24Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-04-14T16:28:34Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-04-14T16:30:01Z DHARMAKAYA joined #lisp 2021-04-14T16:30:13Z ramHero quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-14T16:31:22Z _death: ok, some of my aoc2020 code that uses screamer fails on clisp, because screamer's walker does not support MACROLET 2021-04-14T16:34:16Z curtosis[away] joined #lisp 2021-04-14T16:34:34Z _death: and clisp's LOOP expands to that.. so I'm not sure screamer is very useful on clisp :) 2021-04-14T16:35:59Z phoe: gasp 2021-04-14T16:36:16Z phoe: make an issue mayhaps! 2021-04-14T16:36:38Z _death: nah, I don't use clisp nowadays so it's not an issue for me 2021-04-14T16:38:03Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-04-14T16:38:29Z _death: are you planning on using screamer btw? 2021-04-14T16:38:32Z attila_lendvai_ is now known as attila_lendvai 2021-04-14T16:38:40Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2021-04-14T16:38:40Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-04-14T16:38:58Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-14T16:39:06Z phoe: a little bit; I plan on giving it some maintenance in order to get the official blessing to move the repo to sharplispers 2021-04-14T16:39:24Z phoe: and I've been curious about it for a long time, so that's also a chance to get to know it in depth 2021-04-14T16:39:39Z _death: cool 2021-04-14T16:40:29Z Shinmera: There's also https://shinmera.github.io/classowary for a linear constraint solver alternative. :) 2021-04-14T16:41:03Z Shinmera: It's definitely less fancy than Screamer though 2021-04-14T16:41:28Z _death: cool, I also have a pulp-like thing 2021-04-14T16:41:40Z phoe: Shinmera: it certainly seems capable of screaming though 2021-04-14T16:41:41Z phoe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dcQO6Zb8Eg 2021-04-14T16:42:13Z Shinmera: At least I can guarantee Classowary works well, since I use it quite a bit in my Alloy layouts. 2021-04-14T16:42:16Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-04-14T16:42:50Z _death: that looks like https://gist.github.com/death/9b1be6ce8b34eb771c1d2ba6ef28210f 2021-04-14T16:43:22Z msk joined #lisp 2021-04-14T16:43:26Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-14T16:44:05Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-04-14T16:45:27Z Shinmera: https://github.com/Shinmera/kandria/blob/master/ui/dialog.lisp#L29-L33 2021-04-14T16:47:06Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-04-14T16:50:05Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-04-14T16:50:24Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-04-14T16:52:35Z curtosis[away] quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-04-14T16:53:01Z zaquest quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-14T16:55:15Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-14T16:55:21Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-04-14T16:55:40Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-04-14T16:56:22Z msk quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-14T16:58:30Z _death: phoe: another thing about screamer, I remember they warn about using stuff like DOLIST/DOTIMES in nondeterministic functions, because it may not establish a new binding on each iteration (it's implementation-defined).. but since they shadow CL symbols like DEFUN, why not also shadow DOLIST and friends to provide just that?.. I've not tried it 2021-04-14T16:58:45Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-14T16:58:55Z phoe: _death: that can work and should be a simple transform, please make an issue 2021-04-14T16:59:04Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-04-14T16:59:41Z ramHero joined #lisp 2021-04-14T16:59:57Z _death: phoe: I don't like posting issues :).. to me an issue is a call for action on the maintainer, and I prefer my calls for action to be in the form of pull requests 2021-04-14T17:00:35Z phoe: _death: since it seems that I'll be maintaining screamer in the future - please do so 2021-04-14T17:01:05Z phoe: (and you can explicitly mention that in the issue text if that makes you feel a little bit better) 2021-04-14T17:01:07Z _death: phoe: you may do it yourself, if you're interested ;) 2021-04-14T17:01:37Z diamondbond joined #lisp 2021-04-14T17:02:25Z phoe: _death: ...I actually started looking at the docs and I cannot find them there 2021-04-14T17:02:33Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-14T17:02:34Z phoe: like, dolist or dotimes 2021-04-14T17:02:49Z phoe: http://nikodemus.github.io/screamer/ does not mention dolist or dotimes or the term "binding" 2021-04-14T17:03:20Z _death: phoe: that's just what nikodemus wrote.. the original docs are in the papers directory 2021-04-14T17:04:08Z phoe: grepping the papers directory shows nothing, either 2021-04-14T17:04:34Z _death: check screamer.pdf 2021-04-14T17:04:35Z phoe: oooh, it is in the PDF file. 2021-04-14T17:04:39Z phoe: grepping doesn't find that. 2021-04-14T17:07:01Z phoe: and transforming DO macros is going to be simple but I don't think I'll want to make a LOOP wrapper 2021-04-14T17:07:42Z _death: right.. LOOP is a no-no too, but it's still useful in deterministic functions.. 2021-04-14T17:08:56Z Major_Biscuit quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-04-14T17:09:19Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-04-14T17:10:12Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-04-14T17:17:03Z Brucio-43 joined #lisp 2021-04-14T17:18:08Z Brucio-43 test 2021-04-14T17:18:17Z phoe: test successful 2021-04-14T17:22:57Z Brucio-43 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-14T17:23:02Z Shinmera: or not. 2021-04-14T17:24:01Z attila_lendvai_ joined #lisp 2021-04-14T17:24:02Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-14T17:24:53Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-14T17:25:30Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-14T17:26:01Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-14T17:26:45Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-04-14T17:26:47Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-04-14T17:27:38Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-04-14T17:32:41Z DHARMAKAYA quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-14T17:35:40Z imode joined #lisp 2021-04-14T17:36:17Z attila_lendvai_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-14T17:36:30Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-04-14T17:36:31Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2021-04-14T17:36:31Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-04-14T17:46:54Z heisig joined #lisp 2021-04-14T17:51:30Z fe[nl]ix: phoe: we can certainly move it to sharplispers 2021-04-14T17:51:48Z fe[nl]ix: it would be nice if Nikodemus started that instead of forking 2021-04-14T17:55:27Z _death: there's also screamer+, though the code there likely needs some work.. 2021-04-14T17:56:14Z mfiano: Wasn't there a screamer extensions repository with a questionable license, perhaps not by the same author? 2021-04-14T17:58:28Z _death: yeah, it has a "You may not distribute the code without prior consent from me.".. I'm guessing 20 years later, someone could ask the author to relicense 2021-04-14T17:58:30Z gareppa joined #lisp 2021-04-14T17:59:01Z mfiano: https://github.com/danlentz/screamer-plus 2021-04-14T17:59:12Z mfiano: I guess questionable in that it has none? 2021-04-14T17:59:42Z _death: mfiano: see comment in screamer-plus.lisp 2021-04-14T17:59:47Z gareppa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-14T18:00:40Z mfiano: Eww, custom license. 2021-04-14T18:03:30Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-14T18:04:17Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-04-14T18:04:22Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp 2021-04-14T18:09:09Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-14T18:21:41Z sauvin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-14T18:23:37Z Cthulhux quit (Changing host) 2021-04-14T18:23:37Z Cthulhux joined #lisp 2021-04-14T18:24:25Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-04-14T18:25:08Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-04-14T18:25:49Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-14T18:27:54Z layerex quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-14T18:28:30Z layerex joined #lisp 2021-04-14T18:28:55Z layerex quit (Client Quit) 2021-04-14T18:29:07Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-14T18:34:02Z jeosol quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-04-14T18:34:11Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-14T18:35:00Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-04-14T18:35:28Z remby joined #lisp 2021-04-14T18:35:31Z phoe: fe[nl]ix: I got a mail from Nikodemus - he'll gladly move it himself once some fixes with PRs are submitted to the original repo 2021-04-14T18:36:22Z phoe: and I'll try doing just that 2021-04-14T18:38:27Z plaisanterie joined #lisp 2021-04-14T18:42:41Z hjudt joined #lisp 2021-04-14T18:42:46Z cosimone quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-14T18:45:47Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-04-14T18:46:13Z hypercube joined #lisp 2021-04-14T18:53:38Z kpoeck joined #lisp 2021-04-14T18:54:29Z hypercube quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-14T18:55:53Z UM-Li joined #lisp 2021-04-14T18:57:23Z UM-Li quit (Client Quit) 2021-04-14T18:57:47Z davd33 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-14T19:01:54Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-04-14T19:03:32Z attila_lendvai: luis, ping. would you mind if we made cffi get captured by quicklisp by a moving tag instead of the tarball from cl.net? i.e. tagged-git https://github.com/cffi/cffi.git stable 2021-04-14T19:04:10Z attila_lendvai: luis, that would make it more flexible for us to designate which state ql should capture... just move a tag, instead of releasing... 2021-04-14T19:05:47Z hypercube joined #lisp 2021-04-14T19:07:25Z plaisanterie quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-04-14T19:11:46Z OlCe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-14T19:21:55Z layerex joined #lisp 2021-04-14T19:24:36Z fe[nl]ix: phoe: very nice 2021-04-14T19:24:54Z fe[nl]ix: attila_lendvai: what's the benefit ? 2021-04-14T19:26:08Z attila_lendvai: fe[nl]ix, anyone who has the git commit bit can designate what should go into ql. moving a tag is much less work than releasing, and maybe you don't want to release, yet you want ql to get some patches. 2021-04-14T19:26:26Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-04-14T19:27:09Z attila_lendvai: another benefit is that ql can capture the sources even if cl.net is down (assuming that github.com will better survive any upcoming internet split) 2021-04-14T19:27:09Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-14T19:27:32Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-14T19:28:18Z Odin-: attila_lendvai: I'd guess that depends on whether you end up on the Apple or Facebook side. 2021-04-14T19:28:23Z Odin-: :p 2021-04-14T19:29:10Z layerex quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-14T19:30:13Z attila_lendvai: Odin-, i'm more worried about politicians screwing us up with their geopolitical nonsense... 2021-04-14T19:31:10Z attila_lendvai: bonus reason: git is a much better versioning tool than named tarballs on random servers... 2021-04-14T19:32:10Z Odin-: attila_lendvai: Those are all 'soft' splits, and most of the ones that are likely to happen based on the geopolitics are already in place. 2021-04-14T19:32:51Z Odin-: Unless you're expecting a successful nazi movement in the US next round..? 2021-04-14T19:34:05Z jeosol joined #lisp 2021-04-14T19:36:02Z andrei-n quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-14T19:37:19Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-14T19:37:33Z Shinmera: this is definitely not the place to discuss politics. 2021-04-14T19:38:05Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-04-14T19:40:46Z heisig quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-14T19:46:42Z hypercube quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-04-14T19:48:38Z DHARMAKAYA joined #lisp 2021-04-14T19:52:46Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2021-04-14T19:55:04Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-14T19:55:05Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2021-04-14T19:59:35Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-14T20:01:42Z asarch joined #lisp 2021-04-14T20:02:06Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-04-14T20:02:55Z kpoeck quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-04-14T20:03:38Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-04-14T20:05:01Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-04-14T20:05:06Z krjli joined #lisp 2021-04-14T20:08:06Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-14T20:08:55Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-04-14T20:09:00Z rumbler3_ joined #lisp 2021-04-14T20:09:19Z aoeu256 joined #lisp 2021-04-14T20:10:05Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-14T20:10:05Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-14T20:10:21Z rodriga quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-14T20:12:13Z remby quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-14T20:12:38Z remby joined #lisp 2021-04-14T20:13:39Z copec: Is there a standard name for an initialization function that people like to group everything under for some package? 2021-04-14T20:16:38Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-04-14T20:17:49Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-04-14T20:17:55Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-14T20:18:31Z rumbler3_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-14T20:19:19Z phoe: clhs initialize-instance 2021-04-14T20:19:19Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_init_i.htm 2021-04-14T20:19:19Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-04-14T20:19:45Z phoe: people like adding constructor stuffs as :before and :after methods for that GF 2021-04-14T20:19:54Z phoe: mostly :after 2021-04-14T20:20:06Z phoe: or do you mean something else? 2021-04-14T20:21:28Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-14T20:21:45Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-04-14T20:22:18Z hypercube joined #lisp 2021-04-14T20:22:35Z DHARMAKAYA quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-14T20:22:55Z bilegeek quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-14T20:24:13Z scymtym joined #lisp 2021-04-14T20:26:58Z copec: I read in S-exp from a config file into clos objects, and have a function that does it 2021-04-14T20:27:37Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-04-14T20:28:26Z copec: I could just (function-name) under a commented init section, but I was wondering if there was a defacto standard, like to make an (init) function or something 2021-04-14T20:28:29Z copec: and group everything under that 2021-04-14T20:32:46Z asarch: What is a "generator"? 2021-04-14T20:33:15Z Bike: that term refers to many different things in many different contexts 2021-04-14T20:33:23Z Bike: do you have one in min 2021-04-14T20:33:24Z Bike: d 2021-04-14T20:34:42Z asarch: As a result of a query from a DB cluster? 2021-04-14T20:36:02Z Bike: it might mean a closure with state that returns a new value from an iteration every time you call it 2021-04-14T20:36:10Z Bike: but that is a guess based on little information 2021-04-14T20:37:38Z daphnis quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-14T20:37:54Z daphnis joined #lisp 2021-04-14T20:40:09Z aoeu256 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-14T20:42:38Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-14T20:43:29Z DHARMAKAYA joined #lisp 2021-04-14T20:43:46Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-14T20:43:56Z asarch: Where could I learn more about it? 2021-04-14T20:44:09Z msk joined #lisp 2021-04-14T20:44:12Z Bike: i don't know? the documentation of whatever system you're getting this thing from, probably? 2021-04-14T20:46:02Z asarch: I see 2021-04-14T20:46:18Z asarch: Thank you Bike! Thank you very much! :-) 2021-04-14T20:46:24Z asarch: Have a nice day! 2021-04-14T20:46:27Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-14T20:46:46Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-14T20:48:33Z msk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-14T20:49:22Z daphnis_ joined #lisp 2021-04-14T20:49:35Z Kundry_Wag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-14T20:49:41Z daphnis quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-14T20:49:49Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2021-04-14T20:50:01Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2021-04-14T20:50:16Z Alfr: I think w-h-t-i has a nice example for generators in that sense, Bike. 2021-04-14T20:50:48Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-14T20:52:57Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2021-04-14T20:55:51Z jeosol quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-04-14T21:00:43Z jeosol joined #lisp 2021-04-14T21:02:10Z msk joined #lisp 2021-04-14T21:03:53Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-04-14T21:06:26Z msk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-14T21:08:41Z wsinatra quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-04-14T21:14:40Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-14T21:14:49Z elderK joined #lisp 2021-04-14T21:20:56Z CrazyPython joined #lisp 2021-04-14T21:26:40Z cosimone quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-14T21:29:05Z daphnis_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-14T21:29:39Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-04-14T21:30:31Z daphnis joined #lisp 2021-04-14T21:32:23Z remby quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-14T21:35:57Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-04-14T21:35:57Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2021-04-14T21:35:57Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-04-14T21:36:32Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-14T21:37:11Z daphnis quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-14T21:46:00Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-04-14T21:52:20Z devrtz quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-04-14T21:53:00Z Yardanico quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-14T21:53:23Z varjag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-14T21:53:33Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-04-14T21:54:07Z Yardanico joined #lisp 2021-04-14T21:54:31Z devrtz joined #lisp 2021-04-14T21:54:49Z krjli quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-14T21:55:35Z msk joined #lisp 2021-04-14T21:56:02Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-04-14T21:56:12Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-14T21:58:41Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-14T21:59:46Z msk quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-14T22:02:55Z villanella quit (Quit: villanella) 2021-04-14T22:05:01Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-04-14T22:07:20Z chipolux quit (Quit: chipolux) 2021-04-14T22:07:20Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-04-14T22:12:59Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp 2021-04-14T22:14:05Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-14T22:20:11Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-14T22:21:46Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-04-14T22:23:06Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-04-14T22:23:31Z curtosis[away] joined #lisp 2021-04-14T22:26:05Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-14T22:26:29Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-04-14T22:27:37Z pve quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-04-14T22:32:43Z maiqthefalse quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-04-14T22:39:55Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-14T22:41:37Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-04-14T22:43:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: flip214: maybe I should contact him directly, I'd like to pull things like author/title/etc. 2021-04-14T22:43:27Z lotuseater quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-04-14T22:43:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: The last time I tried, I also ran into issues with PDF spec versions, I think 2021-04-14T22:44:41Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-04-14T22:47:22Z curtosis[away] quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. 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Also the "You may not distribute the code" part. 2021-04-15T03:03:44Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-04-15T03:04:10Z mrchampion joined #lisp 2021-04-15T03:07:40Z rwcom60280385034 joined #lisp 2021-04-15T03:07:51Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2021-04-15T03:09:45Z Nilby: Good morning. 2021-04-15T03:12:25Z les-citrons joined #lisp 2021-04-15T03:12:41Z les-citrons left #lisp 2021-04-15T03:12:57Z Kundry_Wag quit (Read error: No route to host) 2021-04-15T03:13:22Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2021-04-15T03:14:25Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-04-15T03:17:26Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-15T03:22:36Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp 2021-04-15T03:26:21Z indathrone joined #lisp 2021-04-15T03:37:37Z neirac_ joined #lisp 2021-04-15T03:38:41Z neirac quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-15T03:39:48Z rtypo joined #lisp 2021-04-15T03:40:33Z Bike quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-04-15T03:43:31Z zaquest quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-15T03:46:07Z mh__ joined #lisp 2021-04-15T03:48:03Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-04-15T03:48:50Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-04-15T03:52:06Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-15T04:00:20Z housel quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-15T04:09:31Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-04-15T04:18:51Z jeosol joined #lisp 2021-04-15T04:21:18Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-15T04:26:58Z mh__ left #lisp 2021-04-15T04:34:56Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-04-15T04:39:54Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-04-15T04:41:24Z srhm quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2021-04-15T04:42:28Z mrchampion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-15T04:50:58Z rumbler3_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-15T04:51:44Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-04-15T05:02:46Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-04-15T05:08:52Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-15T05:09:53Z aindilis quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-15T05:10:34Z aindilis` joined #lisp 2021-04-15T05:10:58Z aindilis` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-15T05:10:59Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-04-15T05:11:09Z sauvin joined #lisp 2021-04-15T05:12:13Z housel joined #lisp 2021-04-15T05:22:33Z mh__ joined #lisp 2021-04-15T05:22:58Z madrik joined #lisp 2021-04-15T05:25:29Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-04-15T05:29:03Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-04-15T05:29:11Z rtypo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-15T05:34:57Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-04-15T05:35:41Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-15T05:36:44Z andrei-n joined #lisp 2021-04-15T05:37:00Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2021-04-15T05:41:53Z asarch joined #lisp 2021-04-15T05:43:44Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-15T05:45:04Z imode quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-04-15T05:45:40Z madand quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-04-15T05:47:19Z madand joined #lisp 2021-04-15T05:47:38Z hjudt joined #lisp 2021-04-15T05:48:39Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-04-15T05:49:11Z hypercube quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-15T05:51:19Z hypercube joined #lisp 2021-04-15T05:59:37Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2021-04-15T06:05:06Z paul0 joined #lisp 2021-04-15T06:08:18Z _paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-15T06:12:49Z flip214: fiddlerwoaroof: https://github.com/mbattyani/cl-pdf/issues/27 2021-04-15T06:19:30Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-04-15T06:20:16Z daphnis joined #lisp 2021-04-15T06:23:59Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-15T06:37:18Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-04-15T06:37:34Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-04-15T06:44:47Z DHARMAKAYA quit (Quit: Turning off a portion of this simulation.) 2021-04-15T06:45:16Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-15T06:47:54Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-04-15T06:48:42Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-04-15T06:51:02Z sm2n_ joined #lisp 2021-04-15T06:52:07Z sm2n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-15T06:53:34Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-04-15T06:59:42Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-15T07:00:40Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-15T07:04:54Z sauvin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-15T07:05:11Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-15T07:05:20Z sauvin joined #lisp 2021-04-15T07:10:19Z lukego: I was a good boy and write some unit tests but I'm already deleting them all because they are not worth the effort to maintain. 2021-04-15T07:13:29Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-04-15T07:13:56Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2021-04-15T07:16:04Z Oddity joined #lisp 2021-04-15T07:16:35Z gpiero_ quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. 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But if I'm 'exploring the design space' (i.e. coding without knowing what I'm doing) then I do find them a boat anchor rather than a sanity check. 2021-04-15T08:10:01Z hiroaki_ joined #lisp 2021-04-15T08:10:12Z supercoven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-15T08:10:21Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-15T08:12:06Z Nilby quit (Quit: [deleted]) 2021-04-15T08:12:15Z dickbarends joined #lisp 2021-04-15T08:12:16Z lukego: splittist: I think that in this case I wrote some really basic unit tests as scaffolding to get some low-level routines working for the first time. but now I don't need it much because I've written other code that exercises these routines pretty thoroughly and I can just run that to get test coverage. 2021-04-15T08:13:12Z lukego: so it seems like my test suite will just try to exercise lots of relevant code paths and then I'll need to have enough "design by contract" style instrumentation to be able to catch and debug errors when/where they occur 2021-04-15T08:14:09Z gitgood quit (Quit: Probably away to do something really awesome) 2021-04-15T08:14:24Z jackdaniel: I call it bravery! ;-) 2021-04-15T08:15:04Z jackdaniel: but tests are a drag (although a very useful one) 2021-04-15T08:16:08Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2021-04-15T08:16:13Z supercoven joined #lisp 2021-04-15T08:16:14Z supercoven quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2021-04-15T08:16:24Z lukego: (my case might also be special in that these are routines for importing data in a specific file format and it only takes three and a half seconds to import all such data that actually exists... so I don't really need to be prepared for inputs that aren't included in the test suite) 2021-04-15T08:16:28Z supercoven joined #lisp 2021-04-15T08:16:29Z supercoven quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2021-04-15T08:16:43Z supercoven joined #lisp 2021-04-15T08:19:08Z madrik left #lisp 2021-04-15T08:22:52Z hypercube quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-15T08:33:40Z slyrus joined #lisp 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when I know that I am explicitly wishing to redfine something? 2021-04-15T13:08:27Z rtypo joined #lisp 2021-04-15T13:09:33Z Xach: attila_lendvai: it only hooks in when using quickload 2021-04-15T13:09:44Z Xach: that establishes a handler for the system-not-found error 2021-04-15T13:09:55Z attila_lendvai: shka_, i'm changing code (hu.dwim.asdf) and i don't want to regress it, and it's not trivial for me to test it right now. 2021-04-15T13:10:50Z attila_lendvai: Xach, thank you for clarifying it! do you have any plans of adding/supporting a find system hook ala the discussion under one of the :defsystem-depends-on issue? 2021-04-15T13:10:58Z Xach: No plans 2021-04-15T13:11:01Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-15T13:11:38Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-15T13:11:50Z attila_lendvai: Xach, the reson is that sometimes it's much more convenient to sideffect the image at one point, and just fire the macinery, as opposed to messing at random different places to (optionally) use quickload when available... 2021-04-15T13:13:28Z phoe: jmercouris: you can try to unbind it first 2021-04-15T13:13:30Z attila_lendvai: Xach, i've written several build.sh scripts now that uses ql (thanks a whole lot BTW!). some of them optionally using ql when available, otherwise relying on the user's config. some others override the user's config and do (quasi-)reproducible builds. 2021-04-15T13:13:30Z Xach: Ok 2021-04-15T13:13:38Z jmercouris: phoe: true 2021-04-15T13:13:43Z phoe: so makunbound for symbols, fmakunbound for functions, setf find-class nil for classes, ... 2021-04-15T13:13:47Z jmercouris: I was hoping for some (declare ...) magic 2021-04-15T13:13:57Z jmercouris: maybe I can write a macro... 2021-04-15T13:14:13Z jmercouris: how about generic functions same as fmakunbound? 2021-04-15T13:14:27Z phoe: GFs are bound in the function namespace, so yes 2021-04-15T13:14:31Z jmercouris: OK 2021-04-15T13:14:32Z phoe: they're functions 2021-04-15T13:14:39Z madage joined #lisp 2021-04-15T13:14:42Z jmercouris: hai 2021-04-15T13:15:38Z surabax joined #lisp 2021-04-15T13:17:29Z ldb joined #lisp 2021-04-15T13:17:33Z ldb: good evening 2021-04-15T13:19:06Z pp joined #lisp 2021-04-15T13:19:12Z pp: hi 2021-04-15T13:19:21Z pp: what is best lisp? 2021-04-15T13:19:27Z Xach: pp: common 2021-04-15T13:19:32Z ldb: not common 2021-04-15T13:19:44Z pp: interesting... 2021-04-15T13:20:28Z phoe: maybe the real best lisp is the friends we make along the way 2021-04-15T13:20:45Z phoe: but, anyway! 2021-04-15T13:21:06Z phoe: pp: #lisp is a Common Lisp channel, you could possibly try ##lisp for a channel for all dialects 2021-04-15T13:21:28Z pp: ok! 2021-04-15T13:22:17Z pp: do any of you use scrotwm? 2021-04-15T13:23:22Z phoe: oh 2021-04-15T13:23:32Z phoe: I think I understand now 2021-04-15T13:23:40Z ChanServ has set mode +o phoe 2021-04-15T13:23:43Z phoe has set mode +b *!*600578fa@96.5.120.* 2021-04-15T13:23:43Z pp [~phoe@2001:19f0:5:689f:5400:2ff:fe77:b1de] has been kicked from #lisp by phoe (pp) 2021-04-15T13:23:46Z ChanServ has set mode -o phoe 2021-04-15T13:24:24Z ldb: https://forum.ubuntu-fi.org/index.php?topic=43042.0 2021-04-15T13:25:03Z ldb: well, it reminds me the joke about Coq 2021-04-15T13:25:30Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-15T13:25:59Z phoe: which is likely the reason they're discussing changing the name 2021-04-15T13:27:26Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-04-15T13:31:31Z ldb: is it possible to get the file list under a dir via http? 2021-04-15T13:33:28Z layerex joined #lisp 2021-04-15T13:33:37Z ldb: i'm looking for tools making a emacs elpa mirror via http. 2021-04-15T13:34:25Z luis: ldb: maybe #emacs can help 2021-04-15T13:34:40Z ldb: don't know what ql systems to use to write this thing in CL. 2021-04-15T13:34:58Z luis: ldb: drakma, possibly 2021-04-15T13:35:50Z ldb: luis: they uses an emacs lisp package, which doesn't support parallel download. 2021-04-15T13:36:33Z ldb: luis: thanks 2021-04-15T13:37:43Z ldb starts to learn http today 2021-04-15T13:38:19Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-04-15T13:38:42Z luis: ldb: you will learn that plain HTTP has no standard way to list a directory 2021-04-15T13:40:53Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-04-15T13:41:05Z ldb: we used to use rsync. recently for unknown reason the upstream rsync servies are down 2021-04-15T13:43:35Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-04-15T13:47:09Z waleee-cl joined #lisp 2021-04-15T13:48:20Z docl_ joined #lisp 2021-04-15T13:48:36Z docl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-15T13:48:47Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2021-04-15T13:54:32Z jeosol joined #lisp 2021-04-15T14:01:18Z msk_ joined #lisp 2021-04-15T14:01:20Z msk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-15T14:01:42Z layerex quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-15T14:03:55Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-15T14:04:17Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-15T14:10:40Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-04-15T14:10:58Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-04-15T14:11:32Z flip214: phoe: why did you kick? Asking about "A minimalistic tiling Window Manager for X11." is that bad? 2021-04-15T14:11:47Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-15T14:11:58Z Bike: cos it looks like "scrotum" 2021-04-15T14:12:12Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-04-15T14:12:27Z phoe: a person nicknamed peepee asking about a scrotum tripped my personal troll filter 2021-04-15T14:12:56Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2021-04-15T14:13:15Z flip214: hmmm, I didn't have that sensitivity level 2021-04-15T14:14:16Z varjag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-15T14:14:17Z phoe: maybe you're right though, I've had my own sensitivity levels put to some tests as of late 2021-04-15T14:14:51Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-04-15T14:15:27Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-15T14:15:39Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-15T14:15:58Z Bike: oh, in fact they renamed it to spectrwm 2021-04-15T14:16:00Z Bike: in 2012. 2021-04-15T14:16:46Z phoe: good move 2021-04-15T14:16:56Z Bike: also it's written in C. weird. i guess pp could have been serious but talking about something weird. 2021-04-15T14:19:10Z sp41 joined #lisp 2021-04-15T14:20:38Z andrei-n quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-04-15T14:22:54Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2021-04-15T14:26:56Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-04-15T14:29:29Z nij joined #lisp 2021-04-15T14:30:04Z flip214: ah, stumpwm is the CL one 2021-04-15T14:31:53Z docl_ is now known as docl 2021-04-15T14:34:24Z nij quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-15T14:34:48Z mrchampion joined #lisp 2021-04-15T14:36:54Z varjagg joined #lisp 2021-04-15T14:38:11Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-15T14:39:44Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-04-15T14:45:21Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-15T14:46:14Z luckless_ joined #lisp 2021-04-15T14:46:27Z ldb quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1)) 2021-04-15T14:46:35Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-15T14:49:09Z luckless quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-15T14:52:27Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-04-15T14:56:53Z Inline quit (Client Quit) 2021-04-15T14:57:46Z curtosis joined #lisp 2021-04-15T15:00:31Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-04-15T15:13:47Z hiroaki_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-15T15:22:57Z srhm joined #lisp 2021-04-15T15:39:37Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2021-04-15T15:39:59Z Josh_2: Hey all 2021-04-15T15:40:09Z Josh_2: Is there a native lisp library I can use to resize images? 2021-04-15T15:40:23Z Josh_2: If not I will just call out to ffmpeg 2021-04-15T15:40:26Z tychoish: Hi Josh2 2021-04-15T15:40:43Z varjagg quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 28.0.50)) 2021-04-15T15:40:49Z beach: Maybe "opticl"? 2021-04-15T15:41:21Z tychoish: https://github.com/CodyReichert/awesome-cl#graphics I always just check lists like this 2021-04-15T15:41:50Z mokulus joined #lisp 2021-04-15T15:42:02Z Necktwi joined #lisp 2021-04-15T15:42:30Z Josh_2: I imagine I could do it with opticl 2021-04-15T15:43:01Z Josh_2: I can do it with opticl there is an example where they resize an image :) 2021-04-15T15:45:19Z mokulus quit (Client Quit) 2021-04-15T15:46:03Z Josh_2: I doubt it can resize gifs though 2021-04-15T15:46:06Z Josh_2: ahh thats a bummer 2021-04-15T15:48:31Z Xach: Josh_2: when i was resizing a lot of images, i used run-program and imagemagick. 2021-04-15T15:48:37Z Xach: it worked fine for my scale. 2021-04-15T15:49:05Z Josh_2: Does imagemagick work with gifs? 2021-04-15T15:49:16Z Xach: Josh_2: yes 2021-04-15T15:49:17Z phoe: t 2021-04-15T15:49:24Z Josh_2: Did you use cl-magick? 2021-04-15T15:49:37Z Josh_2: or cl-imagemagick 2021-04-15T15:49:57Z Xach: No. I used run-program. 2021-04-15T15:50:08Z Josh_2: right you literally just wrote that xD 2021-04-15T15:53:18Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-15T15:55:50Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-15T15:58:36Z Shinmera: There's also https://shinmera.github.io/trivial-thumbnail/ which uses im underneath 2021-04-15T15:59:09Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-04-15T16:00:26Z long4mud quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-04-15T16:01:50Z bilegeek joined #lisp 2021-04-15T16:04:03Z hypercube quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2021-04-15T16:05:07Z Sheilong joined #lisp 2021-04-15T16:18:46Z contrapunctus: Would a native Lisp library for encoding/decoding media formats (e.g. FLAC, PNG, WebM) be of any help to the community? Or is preferable to wrap C libraries? 2021-04-15T16:19:54Z Xach: contrapunctus: opticl does a lot of that. 2021-04-15T16:20:22Z Xach: contrapunctus: i don't know how much is in pure lisp. pure lisp code for everything would be nice. 2021-04-15T16:22:28Z aeth: contrapunctus: it makes it easier to package programs 2021-04-15T16:22:37Z aeth: (when you don't use a C library, I mean) 2021-04-15T16:24:03Z gitgood joined #lisp 2021-04-15T16:26:12Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-04-15T16:26:29Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-04-15T16:27:23Z Shinmera: contrapunctus: FLAC and PNG already have native ones. WebM or any video format? Good fuckin' luck. 2021-04-15T16:29:12Z Shinmera: contrapunctus: I'd like a native decoder for OGG audio, (preferably decoding to UB8 arrays) 2021-04-15T16:29:39Z shka_: video formats are rather complex beasts 2021-04-15T16:30:12Z luckless_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-04-15T16:30:12Z shka_: and also have strict performance requirements which does not make life easier 2021-04-15T16:30:35Z luckless_ joined #lisp 2021-04-15T16:30:37Z imode joined #lisp 2021-04-15T16:31:21Z daphnis quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-04-15T16:31:59Z contrapunctus: Xach: I see. opticl doesn't seem to use any foreign libraries. 2021-04-15T16:31:59Z contrapunctus: aeth: I see. 2021-04-15T16:31:59Z contrapunctus: Shinmera: hm...I guess I could try that. 2021-04-15T16:34:54Z Shinmera: But yeah, ultimately the hard part isn't necessarily even the decoding, though that often is hard enough, it's also that theres' very strict performance requirements to be able to decode and play back in real time. Especially audio has very