2021-03-01T00:09:16Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-01T00:10:21Z iamFIREcracker joined #lisp 2021-03-01T00:11:21Z iamFIREc1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-01T00:15:38Z vegansbane6963 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-03-01T00:20:04Z meursault quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-01T00:20:21Z sm2n joined #lisp 2021-03-01T00:24:36Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-03-01T00:25:59Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-01T00:26:47Z nicktick joined #lisp 2021-03-01T00:28:17Z karlosz quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-01T00:29:13Z vegansbane6963 quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-01T00:30:49Z gitgoood quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-01T00:34:02Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-03-01T00:34:09Z gitgood joined #lisp 2021-03-01T00:39:56Z grewal quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-01T00:41:44Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-01T00:41:51Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-01T01:01:27Z rixard quit 2021-03-01T01:08:26Z iamFIREc1 joined #lisp 2021-03-01T01:11:04Z iamFIREcracker quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-01T01:24:59Z kevingal_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-01T01:24:59Z kevingal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-01T01:31:09Z martinjungblut joined #lisp 2021-03-01T01:31:46Z martinjungblut: any testing frameworks you folks would recommend? 2021-03-01T01:33:56Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-01T01:34:38Z sm2n quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-01T01:35:03Z Codaraxis quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-01T01:35:24Z Codaraxis joined #lisp 2021-03-01T01:36:04Z Gnuxie[m]: parachute 2021-03-01T01:36:19Z Gnuxie[m]: https://shinmera.github.io/parachute/ 2021-03-01T01:37:31Z Gnuxie[m]: but this is one of those things where everyone has their own preference 2021-03-01T01:40:50Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-01T01:41:58Z wxie joined #lisp 2021-03-01T01:44:36Z niac joined #lisp 2021-03-01T01:44:45Z martinjungblut: Gnuxie[m]: thanks mate! 2021-03-01T01:46:34Z madage joined #lisp 2021-03-01T01:48:15Z Codaraxis quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-01T01:50:37Z Codaraxis joined #lisp 2021-03-01T01:54:48Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-01T01:56:10Z froggey joined #lisp 2021-03-01T01:57:33Z Codaraxis quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-01T02:00:11Z Codaraxis joined #lisp 2021-03-01T02:01:07Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-03-01T02:05:55Z Codaraxis quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-01T02:06:15Z Codaraxis joined #lisp 2021-03-01T02:10:51Z Codaraxis quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-01T02:11:36Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-01T02:12:27Z nicktick joined #lisp 2021-03-01T02:13:28Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-01T02:14:51Z zacts joined #lisp 2021-03-01T02:16:02Z Codaraxis joined #lisp 2021-03-01T02:18:14Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-01T02:19:01Z Codaraxis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-01T02:19:02Z Codaraxis_ joined #lisp 2021-03-01T02:26:06Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-03-01T02:26:38Z z3t0 quit (Quit: Free ZNC ~ Powered by LunarBNC: https://LunarBNC.net) 2021-03-01T02:26:53Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2021-03-01T02:27:00Z semz joined #lisp 2021-03-01T02:27:01Z semz quit (Changing host) 2021-03-01T02:27:01Z semz joined #lisp 2021-03-01T02:27:35Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-01T02:27:56Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-01T02:31:20Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-03-01T02:32:27Z kaiwulf joined #lisp 2021-03-01T02:37:58Z gitgood quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-01T02:40:19Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-01T02:42:52Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2021-03-01T02:44:01Z matryoshka joined #lisp 2021-03-01T02:45:36Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-01T02:47:05Z matryoshka joined #lisp 2021-03-01T02:52:46Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-01T02:54:29Z matryoshka joined #lisp 2021-03-01T02:55:23Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-01T02:58:33Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-01T02:59:27Z matryoshka joined #lisp 2021-03-01T03:13:51Z zacts joined #lisp 2021-03-01T03:15:30Z tinhatcat joined #lisp 2021-03-01T03:17:56Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-01T03:21:30Z tinhatcat quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-01T03:21:40Z tinhatcat joined #lisp 2021-03-01T03:22:27Z davros1 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-01T03:23:35Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-01T03:25:27Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-03-01T03:29:08Z tinhatcat quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-01T03:29:25Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-03-01T03:30:15Z tinhatcat joined #lisp 2021-03-01T03:30:19Z martinjungblut left #lisp 2021-03-01T03:32:49Z abhixec quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-01T03:33:58Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-03-01T03:34:41Z tinhatcat quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-01T03:42:53Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-01T03:47:58Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-01T03:50:23Z prxq_ joined #lisp 2021-03-01T03:50:40Z tinhatcat_ joined #lisp 2021-03-01T03:51:18Z tinhatcat_ quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-01T03:52:16Z jpli joined #lisp 2021-03-01T03:54:33Z prxq quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-01T03:59:34Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-03-01T04:02:11Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2021-03-01T04:02:46Z asarch: Guten Tag! 2021-03-01T04:02:55Z asarch: Wie geht's? 2021-03-01T04:03:00Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-03-01T04:03:01Z kamen: Morning... 2021-03-01T04:03:02Z asarch: :-) 2021-03-01T04:04:14Z beach: Me? Doing great. I am about to use Bike's implementation of Kildall's algorithm to compute "estimated distance of use" for each lexical variable in intermediate code, in order to then implement register allocation. 2021-03-01T04:04:26Z Alfr_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-01T04:04:38Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-01T04:12:39Z abhixec joined #lisp 2021-03-01T04:13:48Z susam: Good morning beach! 2021-03-01T04:13:57Z susam: Good morning, everyone! 2021-03-01T04:15:25Z holycow: _o/ 2021-03-01T04:18:25Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-03-01T04:20:59Z jpli quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-03-01T04:25:51Z beach: kamen: Are you new here? I don't recognize your nick. 2021-03-01T04:35:01Z cchristiansen quit (Read error: No route to host) 2021-03-01T04:36:58Z vutral_ joined #lisp 2021-03-01T04:40:01Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2021-03-01T04:42:15Z cchristiansen joined #lisp 2021-03-01T04:47:11Z thmprover quit (Quit: This parting was well made) 2021-03-01T04:56:10Z matryoshka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-01T04:56:38Z matryoshka joined #lisp 2021-03-01T05:04:24Z kaiwulf quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-01T05:06:43Z sm2n joined #lisp 2021-03-01T05:20:09Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-01T05:22:47Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-01T05:43:09Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-01T05:46:23Z sm2n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-01T05:46:53Z sm2n joined #lisp 2021-03-01T06:04:49Z NULLean` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-01T06:05:24Z aggin joined #lisp 2021-03-01T06:06:08Z iskander- joined #lisp 2021-03-01T06:06:16Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-01T06:07:35Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-01T06:10:18Z kamen: beach: Yup, I'm new. Been hanging around some irc channels (emacs, etc.), but hadn't dared to venture in #lisp yet. No idea why. 2021-03-01T06:16:35Z ex_nihilo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-01T06:16:42Z pyc: Nilby: yesterday, you said, "Everything that still works, works because they don't depend on external conditions. But for most useful things, the external conditions have changed enough that they don't run." 2021-03-01T06:16:44Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-01T06:16:49Z pyc: Nilby: What does "external conditions" mean? 2021-03-01T06:17:59Z pyc: kamen: how did you finally decide to join #lisp? for me the journey was opposite. I first decided to learn Lisp and that led me to Emacs. 2021-03-01T06:19:25Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-01T06:22:16Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-01T06:22:53Z Nilby: pyc: Things like databases, web servers, some O/S things like file locations, and I was running on Solaris OS on 32 bit sparc hardware at the time. 2021-03-01T06:23:29Z Nilby: But some things I still use to this day. 2021-03-01T06:24:42Z pyc: Nilby: okay. I am still learning CL so not familiar with the term "external condition". Does "external condition" mean external package? 2021-03-01T06:26:13Z Nilby: pyc: No. I just meant things like the O/S, network, and external programs, like database and web servers, 2021-03-01T06:26:41Z pyc: Nilby: what does "condition" mean in that term? 2021-03-01T06:26:55Z Nilby: pyc: The packages I used, like e.g. CLSQL still work the same. 2021-03-01T06:27:47Z Nilby: Not Lisp conditions, just the software external to Lisp. 2021-03-01T06:27:55Z pyc: Nilby: oh! 2021-03-01T06:28:26Z pyc: Nilby: so if I understood you right, things like CLSQL still work the same. But things like O/S, network, etc. that you depended on in Solaris OS days, don't work the same and you had to rewrite some of that code? 2021-03-01T06:28:36Z aggin quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-01T06:29:00Z aggin joined #lisp 2021-03-01T06:30:44Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-03-01T06:30:55Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-03-01T06:31:27Z hjudt joined #lisp 2021-03-01T06:31:58Z Nilby: Yes. Like for example, migrating from an Oracle database to Postgresql, and from Apache web server to hunchentoot or nginx 2021-03-01T06:33:23Z pyc: Nilby: thanks 2021-03-01T06:33:36Z beach: kamen: Great! Welcome! 2021-03-01T06:33:46Z aggin quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-01T06:34:12Z aggin joined #lisp 2021-03-01T06:34:36Z beach: kamen: What made you finally decide to join? 2021-03-01T06:35:00Z pyc: Nilby: Can one create a web-based application in Common Lisp directly using CLHS functions and Nginx or do you need to use Hunchentoot for it? 2021-03-01T06:35:13Z cchristiansen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-01T06:35:20Z Nilby: pyc: In general, the CL code I've written is more portable, than any other language I've ever used. 2021-03-01T06:36:24Z pyc: Nilby: that is great to know. what other languages are in your mind when you say that CL code is more portable than them? Python, Java? or something else? 2021-03-01T06:37:41Z Nilby: pyc: Back then was before hunchentoot existed so I just used sockets code to talk to mod_lisp in an apache server. If the whole system was never touched, it could still run today, but people like to upgrade things 2021-03-01T06:38:33Z pyc: Nilby: how about now? can I write a Common Lisp web application without Hunchentoot and serve it over the Internet via Nginx or something like Hunchentoot is necessary? 2021-03-01T06:38:47Z aggin quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-01T06:41:07Z aggin joined #lisp 2021-03-01T06:42:07Z aggin quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-01T06:42:22Z aggin joined #lisp 2021-03-01T06:42:23Z Nilby: Yes. I mean you can make a HTTP 1 server from a few lines of CL code using implementation specific (or OS specific) socket code, but things like hunchentoot make things easier. 2021-03-01T06:43:20Z pyc: okay, so I will learn hunchentoot once I become more comfortable with CL 2021-03-01T06:44:43Z pyc: ah! looks like I have done a hello, world with Hunchentoot already. the Emacs4CL script I used to set up my Emacs introduced me to Hunchentoot in its docs. it had a Hunchentoot example to demo quicklisp: https://github.com/susam/emacs4cl#use-quicklisp 2021-03-01T06:45:07Z pyc: Nilby: can you take a look at my other question above: what other languages are in your mind when you say that CL code is more portable than them? 2021-03-01T06:45:22Z pyc: Nilby: just curious to know CL is more portable in comparison to what else? 2021-03-01T06:46:06Z Nilby: The application I'm thinking of was in C++ before I converted it to Lisp. CLSQL gave me the cool ability to write mostly DB independent SQL, as well as immediately work on different DBs, but more importantly I could write SQL, HTML, and application logic using the same Lisp syntax. 2021-03-01T06:46:36Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-01T06:46:48Z Nilby: C++ has more libraries and features now, but back then it was impossible. 2021-03-01T06:48:17Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp 2021-03-01T06:51:34Z kamen: beach: Oh, nothing special. Since I had resurrected ERC, I thought I might as well hang around, lurk and read/listen to lispers. Also, I've stopped dabbling in CL and started taking it a bit seriously, so, as "ongoing education", it's a good idea to be here. 2021-03-01T06:52:56Z beach: Sounds good. Don't hesitate to ask questions. 2021-03-01T06:53:37Z aggin: is there a :folder like there is a :file in asdf:defsystem :components ? 2021-03-01T06:53:48Z aggin: I want asdf to take files from a certain directory 2021-03-01T06:54:04Z aggin: without defining a new module 2021-03-01T06:57:15Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-01T06:57:33Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-01T07:00:54Z sm2n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-01T07:01:00Z pyc: what does the term "sharplisper" mean? Found it in the channel logs. 2021-03-01T07:01:29Z beach: It's a GitHub repository. 2021-03-01T07:01:51Z beach: We gather abandoned code there and try to maintain it a bit. 2021-03-01T07:02:07Z sm2n joined #lisp 2021-03-01T07:02:21Z beach: I didn't create it, but I am convinced it's a pun, like #lisp-ers. 2021-03-01T07:05:11Z jackdaniel: a sharp lisper is a lisper who is sharp 2021-03-01T07:05:29Z Nilby: edgey sharplispers keeping those old blades from rusting :) 2021-03-01T07:06:24Z beach: jackdaniel: As opposed to "flat"? 2021-03-01T07:07:12Z jackdaniel: beach: I thought of "dull" or "blunt" 2021-03-01T07:07:20Z beach: Just checking. 2021-03-01T07:07:39Z edgar-rft: let's write lisp in a minor 2021-03-01T07:08:24Z kktt0071 joined #lisp 2021-03-01T07:08:24Z jackdaniel: (but a music reference is a nice touch too) 2021-03-01T07:10:00Z jackdaniel: that said, I'm to make an owl from a play dough, see you \o 2021-03-01T07:13:11Z landakram joined #lisp 2021-03-01T07:14:13Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-01T07:15:27Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-01T07:20:36Z varjagg joined #lisp 2021-03-01T07:20:57Z pyc: what am I doing wrong in this statement: (uiop:with-current-directory "/tmp/" (uiop:getcwd)). I get: Error while parsing arguments to DEFMACRO UIOP/FILESYSTEM:WITH-CURRENT-DIRECTORY: 2021-03-01T07:22:17Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-01T07:22:39Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-03-01T07:23:24Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-01T07:24:38Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-01T07:24:59Z Cymew joined #lisp 2021-03-01T07:25:55Z Nilby: pyc: When a macro has an arg in parens, it has to be in parens when you use it. So in your case it's (with-current-directory ("/tmp/") ...) 2021-03-01T07:26:42Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-01T07:27:52Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-01T07:28:04Z beach: pyc: Common Lisp has "statements" only inside TAGBODY. In general, an expression meant to be evaluated is called a "form". 2021-03-01T07:29:36Z pyc: thanks Nilby beach 2021-03-01T07:33:41Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-03-01T07:40:07Z kktt0071 left #lisp 2021-03-01T07:41:56Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-01T07:42:38Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-01T07:43:42Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-01T07:44:15Z ldbeth: good afternoon 2021-03-01T07:44:34Z holycow quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-03-01T07:46:15Z beach: Hello ldbeth. 2021-03-01T07:47:09Z ldbeth: just come up to head, but are there any style guides mention when to use `&aux'? 2021-03-01T07:47:55Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-01T07:48:11Z abhixec quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-01T07:48:27Z abhixec joined #lisp 2021-03-01T07:48:41Z beach: Most people say "never", but I found a use for it, as described in my paper on method combinations. 2021-03-01T07:50:18Z ldbeth: got it 2021-03-01T07:50:44Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-01T07:51:22Z jackdaniel: it is useful when you want to introduce a binding that wraps whole body (i.e you want to rebind an argument) 2021-03-01T07:51:32Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-01T07:51:53Z jackdaniel: (defun foo (string &aux (string (string string))) string) 2021-03-01T07:52:01Z jackdaniel: there is only so many strings you can put in a string 2021-03-01T07:52:26Z ewd joined #lisp 2021-03-01T07:53:10Z beach: That's beautiful. 2021-03-01T07:53:46Z ldbeth: ah, it's some kind of coercesion 2021-03-01T07:53:55Z beach: And that's precisely the use in the paper I mentioned. It needs to wrap an entire body of externally-supplied code. 2021-03-01T07:54:15Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-01T07:54:38Z jackdaniel: ah, happy coincidence 2021-03-01T07:55:49Z Nilby: please LET &aux die 2021-03-01T07:56:18Z beach: Nilby: Then I couldn't implement my technique for method combinations. 2021-03-01T07:57:30Z Nilby: I have total faith that you could 2021-03-01T07:57:51Z wanko quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-01T07:58:16Z beach: I don't think it has any great use in a function that is entirely written by the programmer. But in this case, I needed it because the body of the code could be arbitrary, and I had to wrap it as jackdaniel said. 2021-03-01T07:58:43Z beach: http://metamodular.com/SICL/representing-method-combinations.pdf 2021-03-01T07:59:17Z actuallybatman joined #lisp 2021-03-01T07:59:21Z pve joined #lisp 2021-03-01T07:59:34Z wanko joined #lisp 2021-03-01T08:04:04Z sm2n quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-01T08:05:53Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-01T08:10:00Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-01T08:11:15Z Nilby: someday I'll go back in time and get rid of &aux and nobody will miss it 2021-03-01T08:11:50Z Kingsy quit (Changing host) 2021-03-01T08:11:50Z Kingsy joined #lisp 2021-03-01T08:13:35Z beach: Nilby: If so, I challenge you to come up with an alternative solution to the problem in that paper. 2021-03-01T08:13:58Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-01T08:14:14Z beach: Nilby: It could be your ELS submission this year: "Method combinations without &aux". 2021-03-01T08:15:39Z Carkh: aggin: maybe the :pathname key in a system definition does what you want ? 2021-03-01T08:15:51Z aggin: ok thanks 2021-03-01T08:16:14Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-03-01T08:16:51Z lottaquestions_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-01T08:17:20Z lottaquestions_ joined #lisp 2021-03-01T08:18:36Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-01T08:18:55Z ldbeth quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-03-01T08:19:02Z aggin quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-01T08:20:54Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-01T08:23:04Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2021-03-01T08:26:41Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-03-01T08:27:55Z landakram quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-01T08:31:17Z ex_nihilo joined #lisp 2021-03-01T08:32:32Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-01T08:35:11Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-01T08:35:40Z surabax joined #lisp 2021-03-01T08:36:08Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-03-01T08:37:01Z hjudt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-01T08:37:20Z supercoven joined #lisp 2021-03-01T08:44:27Z matryoshka quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-01T08:52:07Z jeosol quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-01T08:55:19Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-03-01T08:56:58Z jayspeer joined #lisp 2021-03-01T08:58:13Z ljavorsk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-01T09:00:53Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-03-01T09:07:36Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-03-01T09:11:01Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-01T09:13:44Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-03-01T09:16:40Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-01T09:17:27Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-01T09:18:37Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-01T09:20:35Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-01T09:27:21Z scymtym: beach: another use of &AUX is computing the value of a structure slot depending on constructor arguments: (defstruct (foo (:constructor make-foo (bar &aux (baz (1+ bar))))) bar baz) 2021-03-01T09:29:42Z beach: Interesting. I didn't catch that one because I never think about using structures. 2021-03-01T09:31:08Z heisig joined #lisp 2021-03-01T09:33:05Z dim: I must admit I like using structures a lot, and that might be because when using CCL it's possible to change their definitions online, much like classes 2021-03-01T09:33:47Z beach: But then your code is implementation specific. 2021-03-01T09:36:22Z Carkh: isn't there efficiency considerations to take into account ? 2021-03-01T09:36:31Z vutral_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-01T09:36:34Z Carkh: like generic accessors 2021-03-01T09:36:52Z Carkh: vs static 2021-03-01T09:37:47Z pyc: Is it true that 'loop' is discouraged and something like 'mapcar' is encouraged to adhere to more functional programming style? 2021-03-01T09:37:57Z gj joined #lisp 2021-03-01T09:38:02Z beach: Carkh: It depends on the generic dispatch algorithm that your implementation is using. But, yes, with current implementations, it is usually agreed that structures are faster than standard classes/objects. 2021-03-01T09:38:12Z beach: pyc: No. 2021-03-01T09:38:15Z Carkh: beach : thanks 2021-03-01T09:38:19Z pyc: beach: thanks 2021-03-01T09:38:20Z gj: hello! 2021-03-01T09:38:25Z beach: Hello gj. 2021-03-01T09:39:14Z gj: I am here again because I am still a little bit confused about using packages in a lisp program. 2021-03-01T09:39:19Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-01T09:39:27Z beach: pyc: Common Lisp is a multi-paradigm language. You will find the functional style mostly in macro expanders. Of course, someone who wants to program in Common Lisp using a functional style may want to avoid imperative constructs. 2021-03-01T09:40:05Z catt joined #lisp 2021-03-01T09:40:20Z beach: Carkh: Now, if current implementations used my algorithm for generic dispatch and my technique for call-site optimization, the conclusions may be different. :) 2021-03-01T09:40:23Z gj: Things like asdf and quicklisp seem to only work in a REPL? how does it work if I want to do things outside of a REPL? 2021-03-01T09:40:35Z gj: sorry if there is a really obvious answer to this. 2021-03-01T09:41:02Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-01T09:41:05Z beach: gj: You use those tools to build your program. And you would not usually build your program at run time. 2021-03-01T09:41:16Z Carkh: beach : i was under the impression they were doing call site optimization ? or was it java ? 2021-03-01T09:41:54Z beach: Carkh: Nothing like my draft paper suggests: http://metamodular.com/SICL/call-site-optimization.pdf 2021-03-01T09:42:21Z catt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-01T09:42:34Z beach: Carkh: Some very special cases are optimized in high-performance implementations, but nothing this general. 2021-03-01T09:42:54Z Carkh: oh i had this paper in the queue 2021-03-01T09:43:05Z beach: Wow! :) 2021-03-01T09:43:18Z Carkh: probably grabbed it from here =) 2021-03-01T09:43:35Z beach: Very likely. 2021-03-01T09:43:40Z Carkh: yes you talked about it ! 2021-03-01T09:44:40Z heisig: We should start handing out DOIs for things posted on #lisp :) 2021-03-01T09:45:29Z beach: I never did figure out who has the authority to create those. 2021-03-01T10:08:45Z mister_m quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-01T10:11:10Z hiroaki_ joined #lisp 2021-03-01T10:25:45Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-01T10:26:24Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-01T10:26:34Z gj quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-01T10:40:17Z pyc: Found this post on Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/spxy/comments/luiq8k - "makes me wonder how it is webdev with Lisp. I know some old stories, like reddit itself" 2021-03-01T10:40:24Z pyc: Was Reddit really written in Lisp? Which Lisp? 2021-03-01T10:41:18Z phanstig joined #lisp 2021-03-01T10:41:20Z jackdaniel: its initial version was, then it was rewritten in python 2021-03-01T10:41:42Z beach: Oh, wow! Why would anyone want to do that? 2021-03-01T10:41:55Z jackdaniel: here is an explanation: http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/rewritingreddit 2021-03-01T10:41:59Z jackdaniel: it has some merit to it 2021-03-01T10:42:19Z Gnuxie[m]: The original is also on github now 2021-03-01T10:42:21Z jackdaniel: mainly (afair): ecosystem 2021-03-01T10:43:16Z jackdaniel: but I'm reading this right now: https://funcall.blogspot.com/2009/03/not-lisp-again.html 2021-03-01T10:43:23Z jackdaniel: and it is far more encouraging :) 2021-03-01T10:44:01Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-01T10:45:01Z flip214: > The Python version had less code that ran faster 2021-03-01T10:45:03Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-03-01T10:45:04Z beach: I need to put the first one on the queue. I can't figure out how Python would be faster. Maybe they were using CLISP initially? 2021-03-01T10:45:14Z flip214: hmmm, has that ever been the case? 2021-03-01T10:46:01Z jackdaniel: maybe the lisp code was badly written code? 2021-03-01T10:46:34Z jackdaniel: I mean - experienced python programmer can write faster code than inexperienced lisp programmer who takes into the heart, that "everything is a list" 2021-03-01T10:46:39Z kamen: Ah, the reddit from-lisp-to-python case. What a shitstorm that ended up as. 2021-03-01T10:47:56Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-01T10:49:00Z flip214: jackdaniel: the article says "knows about lisp", though 2021-03-01T10:49:12Z flip214: well, never mind. 2021-03-01T10:49:21Z jackdaniel: or: overly ambitious lisp programmer tries to do the right thing, while not exactly the right things gives faster code 2021-03-01T10:49:33Z jackdaniel: (aka worse is better trivia ,) 2021-03-01T10:49:37Z Gnuxie[m]: https://github.com/tamurashingo/reddit1.0 2021-03-01T10:50:20Z flip214: Gnuxie[m]: any hints what lisp was used? 2021-03-01T10:50:40Z jackdaniel: reddit.asd seems to hint common lisp 2021-03-01T10:50:43Z jackdaniel: same the readme 2021-03-01T10:50:50Z Nilby: spez rewrite digg in lisp .. PR0F1T! .. me rewrite unix in lisp ... D3d x_x 2021-03-01T10:50:55Z jackdaniel: ah, what impementation 2021-03-01T10:53:37Z Nilby: (defparameter *secret* "blargo") 2021-03-01T10:55:28Z APic quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-01T10:57:17Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-01T11:00:07Z vegansbane6963 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-03-01T11:00:35Z pyc: flip214: which article says, "knows about lisp"? 2021-03-01T11:05:11Z flip214: pyc: the rewritingreddit one. > the others knew Lisp 2021-03-01T11:12:33Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-01T11:14:34Z lowryder joined #lisp 2021-03-01T11:15:08Z APic joined #lisp 2021-03-01T11:15:53Z acolarh_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2021-03-01T11:16:18Z acolarh joined #lisp 2021-03-01T11:19:14Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-01T11:19:19Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-01T11:20:47Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-01T11:22:07Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-03-01T11:24:05Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-01T11:24:30Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-01T11:28:51Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-03-01T11:29:01Z davros joined #lisp 2021-03-01T11:37:59Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-01T11:38:25Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-01T11:39:09Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-01T11:50:28Z APic quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-01T11:51:04Z APic joined #lisp 2021-03-01T11:52:09Z niac quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-01T11:53:28Z retropikzel quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-01T11:55:53Z ldbeth` joined #lisp 2021-03-01T11:57:33Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-01T11:58:49Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-01T12:02:28Z kamen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-01T12:04:28Z ldbeth`` joined #lisp 2021-03-01T12:05:28Z ldbeth` quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-01T12:06:18Z phanstig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-01T12:08:05Z sm2n joined #lisp 2021-03-01T12:09:24Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-03-01T12:09:39Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-01T12:11:26Z Carkh: if i set the fill-pointer of a vector to a lower value, should i first fill the upper array cells with nil in order to help the garbage collector ? 2021-03-01T12:12:03Z beach: You might want to do that, yes. 2021-03-01T12:12:11Z Carkh: sounds like this might be implementation dependant 2021-03-01T12:12:12Z ldbeth``` joined #lisp 2021-03-01T12:12:13Z beach: Because there are operations that ignore the fill pointer. 2021-03-01T12:12:23Z beach: No, I don't think so. 2021-03-01T12:12:27Z Carkh: allright makes sense, thanks 2021-03-01T12:12:41Z beach: AREF ignores the fill pointer, so the objects beyond the fill pointer can't be reclaimed. 2021-03-01T12:12:59Z Carkh: i didn't know that, i was expecting an error 2021-03-01T12:13:32Z beach: clhs aref 2021-03-01T12:13:33Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_aref.htm 2021-03-01T12:13:45Z ldbeth`` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-01T12:14:04Z Carkh: ahh there it is =) thanks 2021-03-01T12:14:57Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-03-01T12:15:16Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-03-01T12:15:24Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-01T12:15:53Z kevingal_ joined #lisp 2021-03-01T12:16:11Z surabax_ joined #lisp 2021-03-01T12:16:36Z Carkh: in other news, after so many years doing clojure, i'm having the hardest time coming up with imperative algorithms >< 2021-03-01T12:17:05Z Carkh: feels like it's even harder than the adaption i had to undergo the other way back then 2021-03-01T12:17:13Z Carkh: adaptation* 2021-03-01T12:17:58Z beach: Carkh: Try something with a huge graph, like adding an edge. If you do that functionally, it might very well be unbearably slow. 2021-03-01T12:18:01Z wigust quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.4 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-01T12:18:22Z wigust joined #lisp 2021-03-01T12:18:32Z Carkh: it's slower, but the trickj is to flatten the data structur 2021-03-01T12:18:33Z Carkh: e 2021-03-01T12:18:56Z surabax quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-01T12:18:57Z Carkh: but yeah, there's a reason i'm back to CL 2021-03-01T12:19:13Z beach: Sure, if we don't care about performance, anything can be done functionally. 2021-03-01T12:19:58Z kam1 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-01T12:20:06Z Carkh: though CL is not always that friendly towards non-consing imperative stuff... sometimes feels like fighting it 2021-03-01T12:20:49Z beach: Oh? 2021-03-01T12:21:05Z beach: Ah, yes, sorry. Misread. Sure. 2021-03-01T12:21:44Z beach: The, consing is not a problem in general. Only in Common Lisp implementations with bad garbage collectors. 2021-03-01T12:23:57Z Carkh: i'd say yes and no 2021-03-01T12:24:41Z beach: That remark kind of requires some elaboration. 2021-03-01T12:24:51Z Carkh: wasn't it ITA or whatever is the name of this trip calculating application that had to keep its data in a C application ? 2021-03-01T12:25:23Z beach: Could be. Why was that? 2021-03-01T12:25:37Z Carkh: ok so here it is : i'm trying to make a game, 60fps not required, and i'm glad it isn't because i don't think i could maintain it with CL 2021-03-01T12:25:40Z retropikzel joined #lisp 2021-03-01T12:26:26Z Carkh: sure a small toy thing will work nicely 2021-03-01T12:26:43Z Carkh: but even for the small thing you have to be VERY carefull about consing 2021-03-01T12:27:00Z beach: Why is that? 2021-03-01T12:27:10Z Carkh: frame drops 2021-03-01T12:27:23Z beach: Because of the GC? 2021-03-01T12:27:33Z ldbeth``` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-01T12:27:37Z Carkh: that's my guess anyways 2021-03-01T12:27:48Z beach: That just confirms what I said. It is a problem only with Common Lisp implementations with bad garbage collectors. 2021-03-01T12:28:03Z Carkh: sbcl has a bad garbage collector ? 2021-03-01T12:28:08Z beach: Absolutely. 2021-03-01T12:28:15Z Carkh: which one is good ? 2021-03-01T12:28:28Z beach: SBCL started life many decades ago, and we didn't know then what we do now. 2021-03-01T12:28:47Z Carkh: i mean, i'm pretty sure SBCL has good throughput 2021-03-01T12:28:59Z Carkh: but this isn't especially suited to games i guess 2021-03-01T12:29:10Z beach: Pretty much all Common Lisp implementation currently used, at least the free ones, started life a very long time ago, and nobody has implemented a good concurrent and parallel GC for them. 2021-03-01T12:30:01Z beach: Last time I looked, SBCL had a stop-the-world GC. 2021-03-01T12:30:24Z Carkh: will you dive into concurrent GC for SICL ? 2021-03-01T12:30:34Z beach: That's the plan, yes. 2021-03-01T12:30:49Z Carkh: wew dear i'm glad you're doing it rather than me =) 2021-03-01T12:30:58Z beach: See the relevant chapter in http://metamodular.com/SICL/sicl-specification.pdf 2021-03-01T12:31:24Z beach: It hasn't been tested, but the basic design is based on fairly recent research. 2021-03-01T12:32:17Z Carkh: guess i'll have to come back in about 10 years =) 2021-03-01T12:32:49Z beach: I totally hope it won't take us that long to get SICL going. 2021-03-01T12:34:24Z beach: The applications I had in mind for this design are "analysis, processing, and synthesis of sound" 2021-03-01T12:34:40Z beach: And sound is even more sensitive to pauses than video. 2021-03-01T12:34:44Z Carkh: yes that's soft realtime right thre 2021-03-01T12:34:54Z beach: Exactly. 2021-03-01T12:36:02Z Carkh: though with sound you can schedule stuff a bit in abvance depending on buffer size 2021-03-01T12:36:04Z retropikzel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-01T12:36:50Z Carkh: do you intend to treat windows as first class environment with SICL ? 2021-03-01T12:37:14Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-03-01T12:37:29Z beach: You have to make sure that the application responds adequately fast to the user pressing some key on the MIDI keyboard. 2021-03-01T12:37:44Z beach: "windows"? 2021-03-01T12:38:17Z Carkh: microsoft windows... I notice it's nothing but an afterthought for most implementations 2021-03-01T12:38:53Z beach: I have no time or energy for Microsoft products, and very little for Unix as well, so I think the answer is "no". 2021-03-01T12:39:12Z beach: But I am sure there will be someone else doing it. 2021-03-01T12:39:34Z beach: Just like someone will probably make SICL support CFFI or something like that. 2021-03-01T12:39:36Z Carkh: that's something i'll never understand, the users are on windows, most of them anyways 2021-03-01T12:39:54Z beach: I am a researcher. I don't care if I am the only user of SICL. 2021-03-01T12:40:18Z Carkh: no common lisp advocacy on your part then ? 2021-03-01T12:40:46Z beach: I gave up trying to convince people of just about anything many decades ago. 2021-03-01T12:41:09Z beach: I do my job and try to show good results. If people don't care, then that's their problem. 2021-03-01T12:41:36Z Carkh: that was a loaded question anyway 2021-03-01T12:41:52Z Carkh: i mean there are advantages to having a larger community 2021-03-01T12:42:07Z Carkh: maybe more hands to help you with SICL for instance 2021-03-01T12:42:43Z beach: Yes, but the kind of people that would be attracted by "advocacy" are not the kind of people I would like help from. 2021-03-01T12:42:55Z jackdaniel: beach succesfully attracted quite a few people without marketing deparatment :) 2021-03-01T12:43:04Z beach: There is already a handful of people doing real good work for me. That's enough. 2021-03-01T12:43:29Z beach: Carkh: What jackdaniel said. 2021-03-01T12:43:34Z Carkh: that's only an example, there is also more brains to come up with ideas 2021-03-01T12:43:50Z jackdaniel: another thing is that effort of managing low quality contributions sometimes is bigger than not accepting them 2021-03-01T12:44:07Z jackdaniel: (or persuading) 2021-03-01T12:44:17Z beach: I seem to come up with more ideas per time unit than I have time to implement. So the backlog is already considerable. 2021-03-01T12:44:21Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-01T12:44:23Z jackdaniel: heck, even a consensus with knowledgeble people is hard in quantity of 2-3 devs! 2021-03-01T12:44:29Z Carkh: sur the newly "advocated" person is useless, but he/she might grow 2021-03-01T12:44:48Z Carkh: sure* 2021-03-01T12:45:10Z Carkh: community gardening =) 2021-03-01T12:45:14Z jackdaniel: might or might not, the free time you put in growing someone you don't know doesn't grow on trees 2021-03-01T12:45:37Z jackdaniel: well, I'm sure that there are positive examples, but there is some merit in not making a community bubble :) 2021-03-01T12:45:38Z beach: Carkh: It is part of my job to help people make progress, but I don't do it hoping that they will contribute to SICL. 2021-03-01T12:46:21Z Carkh: i shouldn't have mentioned SICL, it was just an example 2021-03-01T12:47:33Z beach: Carkh: For the past 40 years or so, I have "attracted" people by showing what I can do, without talking much about it, and certainly without trying to "market" it. I think I have a good track record of attracting people that have understood the point of what I do. 2021-03-01T12:48:42Z Carkh: so you're saying there's no value in advocacy 2021-03-01T12:49:29Z jackdaniel: I think that you extrapolate too much 2021-03-01T12:49:32Z Carkh: i disagree on that, but to each their own 2021-03-01T12:49:36Z beach: Almost. It is certainly not worth *my* time, but that can be because I am not very good at it. 2021-03-01T12:50:18Z jackdaniel: i.e fact that I'm not going to the cinema does not equal to saying that I don't see value in going to the cinema 2021-03-01T12:50:29Z Carkh: ok i understand 2021-03-01T12:50:59Z beach: Carkh: I also think it is risky. I frequently see people asking questions here in order to "sell" Common Lisp to their manager, but those people would have no clue whatsoever when they then are asked to handle problems with their proposed solutions. 2021-03-01T12:51:35Z beach: ... and such a situation would be very bad for the image of Common Lisp indeed. 2021-03-01T12:51:39Z aggin joined #lisp 2021-03-01T12:51:55Z beach: There are exceptions, of course. Like flip214, who knows what he is talking about. 2021-03-01T12:52:00Z Carkh: again thinking about clojure, rich hickey spent a lot of time doing advocacy, and this resulted in a vibrant community and some tools and solutions that are objectively the best for their purpose (that i know of) 2021-03-01T12:52:17Z beach: Good for him. 2021-03-01T12:52:40Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-01T12:52:45Z aggin: anyone familiar with the maintainer of https://github.com/naryl/cl-tui/commits/master ? 2021-03-01T12:52:50Z beach: I would be OK with Kent Pitman doing some advocacy for Common Lisp. 2021-03-01T12:52:58Z aggin: * https://github.com/naryl/cl-tui 2021-03-01T12:54:11Z Carkh: he's more like the historian of CL =) 2021-03-01T12:54:33Z Codaraxis_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-01T12:54:54Z Codaraxis_ joined #lisp 2021-03-01T12:56:10Z Carkh: anyways back to work, thanks for the chat 2021-03-01T12:56:16Z ldbeth: I think I see "MIDI" in the conversation 2021-03-01T12:56:21Z beach: Carkh: Also, this is probably not a good time to push Common Lisp to a wider audience. Our development tools are not that great, and as you pointed out, the garbage collectors of existing implementations are not that great either. We are working on improving it though. 2021-03-01T12:56:50Z ldbeth: Is there any material I can reference for how to do "real time" signal processing in CL? 2021-03-01T12:57:16Z jackdaniel: n.b abcl relies on jvm gc, so it is rather good given how much effort has been put into that technology 2021-03-01T12:57:23Z Carkh: beach: i sure feels like there is more activity these days than 10 years ago 2021-03-01T12:57:30Z beach: jackdaniel: Good point. 2021-03-01T12:57:30Z Carkh: it* 2021-03-01T12:58:30Z Carkh: though it still firmly smells funny =) 2021-03-01T12:59:12Z ldbeth: to be more specific, I'd like to know how to keep video and sound in sync, but unfortunatly I have no experience in game programming etc 2021-03-01T12:59:55Z skapate joined #lisp 2021-03-01T13:00:14Z matryoshka joined #lisp 2021-03-01T13:00:19Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-03-01T13:00:36Z matryoshka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-01T13:00:49Z Carkh: i'm yet to tackle the sound issue, looks like there are a few libs to be found with borodust 2021-03-01T13:00:53Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-01T13:01:02Z Carkh: calling into C libraries 2021-03-01T13:02:16Z Codaraxis_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-01T13:02:24Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-01T13:02:51Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-01T13:03:07Z matryoshka joined #lisp 2021-03-01T13:03:53Z beach: ldbeth: I know of no such material. Even with more traditional languages, the OS is going to get in your way a lot. I can't even get a real-time synthesizer program to give adequate response times on Linux. I am told I need to recompile the kernel for that. 2021-03-01T13:04:01Z Carkh: namely bodge-openal 2021-03-01T13:04:44Z Carkh: bodge-sndfile and its sndfile-blob 2021-03-01T13:04:46Z Lycurgus: yeah that's standard 2021-03-01T13:05:00Z Lycurgus: the normal linux kernel isn't real time 2021-03-01T13:05:16Z Lycurgus: the build is pretty straightforward though 2021-03-01T13:05:41Z beach: So why is it not real time by default? 2021-03-01T13:06:01Z Lycurgus: not the default use case? 2021-03-01T13:06:05Z Carkh: probably because there is a tension between throughput and realtimeness 2021-03-01T13:06:25Z Lycurgus: also it's pretty easy on most distros 2021-03-01T13:06:27Z ldbeth: Carkh: ah, so I accept that it is not easy to accomplish this with trivial programs. 2021-03-01T13:06:28Z beach: Lycurgus: What use case would be disadvantaged if it were real time by default? 2021-03-01T13:06:37Z Lycurgus: debian derived ones anyway 2021-03-01T13:07:19Z Lycurgus: all my hosts in this LAN for example and this one I'm typing on where I expect interactive resposivity 2021-03-01T13:07:44Z beach: I think I need a competent system administrator. 2021-03-01T13:08:06Z Lycurgus: also switching will be easy from grub 2021-03-01T13:08:16Z beach: I can't even get an adequate desktop environment without specific adaptations. 2021-03-01T13:08:35Z Lycurgus: but this host hasn't been rebooted in a couple months 2021-03-01T13:09:04Z Lycurgus: did have to restart X/vnc a few days ago loosing my desktop 2021-03-01T13:10:08Z beach: I think I could convince someone to be my system administrator, but I have no idea how that would work remotely. 2021-03-01T13:10:11Z Lycurgus: *responsivity 2021-03-01T13:10:23Z Lycurgus: i'd do it on retainer :) 2021-03-01T13:10:44Z beach: What does that mean? 2021-03-01T13:11:17Z Lycurgus: what does retainer mean? 2021-03-01T13:11:56Z beach: You mean you would get paid in advance? 2021-03-01T13:11:59Z beach: I could do that. 2021-03-01T13:12:23Z beach: But I still don't see how it solves the remote problem. 2021-03-01T13:12:25Z Lycurgus: k, juan@acm.org ; ( to get back on topic ) 2021-03-01T13:13:02Z Codaraxis joined #lisp 2021-03-01T13:13:46Z jayspeer quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-03-01T13:14:05Z beach: I guess I'll wait until I have replaced my desktop. It is time for that. 2021-03-01T13:14:19Z beach: My desktop computer I mean. 2021-03-01T13:14:32Z Lycurgus: remote isn't a reall issue these days; was gonna sey, dedicate a box to rt if it's important 2021-03-01T13:15:11Z beach: That's an idea. 2021-03-01T13:15:13Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-01T13:17:36Z Lycurgus: in terms of defaultness order: server, desktop, rt and other specialty 2021-03-01T13:21:04Z beach: Thanks for the advice. When I have time, I'll give it some more thought. It is a very attractive idea. 2021-03-01T13:21:23Z Lycurgus: np 2021-03-01T13:22:15Z Sheilong joined #lisp 2021-03-01T13:23:18Z ldbeth` joined #lisp 2021-03-01T13:24:19Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-01T13:27:17Z aggin quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-01T13:29:38Z ldbeth` quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-01T13:33:10Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-01T13:41:49Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-03-01T13:48:15Z caret joined #lisp 2021-03-01T13:56:19Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-03-01T14:01:30Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-03-01T14:03:55Z ex_nihilo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-01T14:10:27Z kaiwulf joined #lisp 2021-03-01T14:12:33Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-01T14:12:56Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-01T14:13:08Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-03-01T14:15:08Z lowryder joined #lisp 2021-03-01T14:16:36Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-03-01T14:17:16Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-01T14:17:21Z rogersm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-01T14:18:57Z prxq_ quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-03-01T14:20:25Z matryoshka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-01T14:21:02Z ldb joined #lisp 2021-03-01T14:21:08Z matryoshka joined #lisp 2021-03-01T14:23:21Z mister_m joined #lisp 2021-03-01T14:25:35Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-01T14:27:41Z flazh quit (Quit: flazh) 2021-03-01T14:29:42Z retropikzel joined #lisp 2021-03-01T14:35:05Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-01T14:42:00Z choegusung joined #lisp 2021-03-01T14:44:36Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-01T14:47:44Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-01T14:48:48Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-01T14:51:41Z davros_ joined #lisp 2021-03-01T14:51:54Z davros_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-01T14:52:05Z frgo quit 2021-03-01T14:54:55Z Codaraxis quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-01T14:57:14Z Codaraxis joined #lisp 2021-03-01T14:58:24Z ex_nihilo joined #lisp 2021-03-01T14:58:59Z choegusung quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-01T14:59:15Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-01T15:02:48Z Codaraxis quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-01T15:04:00Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-01T15:04:57Z sjl joined #lisp 2021-03-01T15:05:56Z frgo quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-01T15:12:58Z flazh joined #lisp 2021-03-01T15:15:19Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2021-03-01T15:15:24Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-01T15:15:55Z frgo quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-01T15:21:55Z ex_nihilo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-01T15:25:56Z wsinatra quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-01T15:27:09Z pyc: Given a relative path "foo" what is the best way to convert it to an absolute pathname, example: #p"/home/pyc/project/foo/" ? 2021-03-01T15:27:20Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-03-01T15:28:53Z jackdaniel: (truename "foo") 2021-03-01T15:28:56Z jackdaniel: if the file exists 2021-03-01T15:29:17Z pyc: thanks jackdaniel 2021-03-01T15:29:28Z jackdaniel: or (make-pathname :name "foo" :defaults *default-pathname-defaults*) if it doesn't 2021-03-01T15:30:01Z jackdaniel: (given that your default pathname is /home/pyc/project/) 2021-03-01T15:30:50Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-03-01T15:31:30Z lisp-machine joined #lisp 2021-03-01T15:32:36Z pyc: jackdaniel: yes, I will use the second option because it evaluates what I need when the directory name is a symbolic link to another path. 2021-03-01T15:33:25Z egp__ quit (Quit: EXIT) 2021-03-01T15:33:31Z egp_ quit (Quit: EXIT) 2021-03-01T15:33:52Z pyc: just to ensure that I am not falling in the trap of X-Y problem, here is my problem X: given a relative source path "foo" and relative target path "bar", I want to copy all files and folders recursively from "foo" and copy them to "bar". 2021-03-01T15:34:26Z pyc: so when I start walking through "foo", I get absolute paths for all files and directories found recursively, example, "/home/pyc/project/foo/dir1/file1.txt" and so on. 2021-03-01T15:34:55Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-01T15:35:21Z pyc: so what I am going to do is resolve "foo/" to "/home/pyc/project/foo/" (the prefix), remove that from the source file path to get "dir1/file1.txt" and then append that to "bar" to get the destination path, that is, "bar/dir1/file1.txt" 2021-03-01T15:35:54Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2021-03-01T15:36:02Z Xach: pyc: enough-namestring may help there 2021-03-01T15:44:43Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-01T15:46:10Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-03-01T15:46:49Z pyc: What am I doing wrong here: (enough-namestring "/home/pyc/foo/bar" :defaults "/home/pyc/foo/"). Error: invalid number of arguments: 3 2021-03-01T15:48:10Z Bike: enough-namestring takes an optional parameter for the defaults, not a keyword parameter 2021-03-01T15:50:20Z ex_nihilo joined #lisp 2021-03-01T15:50:50Z hjudt joined #lisp 2021-03-01T15:51:39Z pyc: oops! thanks for the help Bike! I am still misinterpreting the docs even though Practical Common Lisp has taught me the difference between keyword and optional. 2021-03-01T15:52:43Z puchacz joined #lisp 2021-03-01T16:01:35Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-03-01T16:04:36Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-01T16:04:45Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-01T16:06:29Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-03-01T16:13:17Z semz: I'm starting to think ITERATE is largely pointless. It's idiosyncratic with lots of gotchas, hard to extend (beats impossible I guess, but still), and purging it from my code showed that there were maybe two features I used that didn't have a direct LOOP equivalent. 2021-03-01T16:13:34Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-01T16:13:55Z beach: Yeah, LOOP works for most cases. 2021-03-01T16:14:32Z lisp-machine: hehe i've been trying to use map(c)(ar) exclusively lately as a challenge 2021-03-01T16:14:36Z lisp-machine: loopless code 2021-03-01T16:14:56Z beach: I am sorry to hear that. :) 2021-03-01T16:15:11Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3)) 2021-03-01T16:15:42Z beach: I find mapping works fine when I have the function already made, but not so practical if I have to make up an anonymous function just for the call. 2021-03-01T16:18:52Z beach: Also, if you want to collect resulting elements conditionally, mapping doesn't work. 2021-03-01T16:19:22Z beach: You get some twisted code with mapcan and listifying intermediate results. 2021-03-01T16:20:36Z wsinatra quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-01T16:21:32Z gioyik joined #lisp 2021-03-01T16:23:15Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-03-01T16:29:19Z hiroaki_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-01T16:30:53Z lisp-machine quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-01T16:39:44Z z3t0 quit (Quit: Free ZNC ~ Powered by LunarBNC: https://LunarBNC.net) 2021-03-01T16:41:23Z hiroaki_ joined #lisp 2021-03-01T16:41:24Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2021-03-01T16:42:26Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-01T16:42:52Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-01T16:44:11Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-01T16:49:38Z kaiwulf quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-01T16:57:03Z varjagg joined #lisp 2021-03-01T16:57:59Z nij joined #lisp 2021-03-01T16:58:36Z nij: How to bind keys for buffer that's in dired-mode, unbind automatically when dired-mode is off, and bind automatically again if dired-mode is on again? 2021-03-01T16:58:47Z nij: OH no.. wrong place ;-( 2021-03-01T17:02:34Z waleee-cl joined #lisp 2021-03-01T17:03:57Z ldb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-01T17:11:25Z varjagg: folks who build/deploy lisp applications, how do you handle project dependencies/libraries? 2021-03-01T17:11:52Z varjagg: check out 'manually' their pinned versions when staging a build? 2021-03-01T17:13:34Z wsinatra quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-01T17:14:49Z aeth: varjagg: git clone into ~/quicklisp/local-projects (or ln -s there and clone elsewhere) to override the version in Quicklisp while still using Quicklisp to manage dependencies 2021-03-01T17:15:26Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-03-01T17:19:55Z varjagg: aeth: i'm looking for a reproducible build not involving quicklisp, that means i basically have to get all of ~/quicklisp in there 2021-03-01T17:20:43Z varjagg: which i guess is an option 2021-03-01T17:20:45Z aeth: only your dependencies 2021-03-01T17:21:08Z aeth: you could even query https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects for the upstream and (semi-)automate it 2021-03-01T17:22:18Z aeth: (asdf:system-depends-on (asdf:find-system :foo)) can help but note that ASDF systems don't line up with Quicklisp projects. In general, a Quicklisp project has one or more ASDF systems which in turn has one or more CL packages. And the names don't have to line up. 2021-03-01T17:23:16Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-01T17:24:49Z pyc: do you all use Quicklisp? or do you use plain ASDF? 2021-03-01T17:24:59Z varjagg: both 2021-03-01T17:25:15Z pyc: varjagg: why do you use both? why not one of them only? 2021-03-01T17:26:17Z varjagg: aeth: a practical complication is the build is a part of a broader openembedded/yocto build, it kind of has it's own fetch/configure/build flow 2021-03-01T17:26:45Z varjagg: so i really just want to write a job that grabs all dependencies in yocto fetch phase 2021-03-01T17:26:54Z varjagg: before the lisp compiler even installed 2021-03-01T17:27:36Z varjagg: guess i just need to tree-walk all asdf deps and find sources 2021-03-01T17:28:10Z varjagg is now known as varjag 2021-03-01T17:29:05Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-03-01T17:30:31Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-01T17:30:47Z nij left #lisp 2021-03-01T17:30:56Z varjag: pyc: qucklisp leverages asdf.. either makes sense depending where you are in dev cycle 2021-03-01T17:31:25Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-03-01T17:32:26Z pyc: thanks varjag for the explanation 2021-03-01T17:33:21Z pyc: is there a function that can provide only the filenames (as opposed to absolute paths) under a directory? 2021-03-01T17:36:07Z varjag: clhs pathname-name 2021-03-01T17:36:07Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_pn_hos.htm 2021-03-01T17:36:18Z varjag: map over your directory pathnames 2021-03-01T17:38:21Z pyc: thanks varjag 2021-03-01T17:49:28Z zolferino joined #lisp 2021-03-01T17:49:28Z zolferino quit (Excess Flood) 2021-03-01T17:56:28Z gareppa joined #lisp 2021-03-01T17:57:21Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2021-03-01T17:57:25Z gareppa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-01T18:03:26Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-01T18:04:12Z olferino joined #lisp 2021-03-01T18:04:12Z olferino quit (Excess Flood) 2021-03-01T18:08:46Z fitzsim: varjag: that's interesting; I wanted to build a Lisp packages as part of a Yocto build a while ago 2021-03-01T18:08:46Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-01T18:08:57Z fitzsim: but at the time I couldn't find any lisp-related meta layers 2021-03-01T18:09:49Z fitzsim: *a Lisp package 2021-03-01T18:11:21Z wsinatra quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-01T18:12:45Z jackdaniel: fitzsim: I think that buildroot had clisp 2021-03-01T18:13:31Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-01T18:14:17Z aindilis joined #lisp 2021-03-01T18:15:04Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-03-01T18:16:57Z olferino joined #lisp 2021-03-01T18:16:57Z olferino quit (Excess Flood) 2021-03-01T18:18:22Z olferino joined #lisp 2021-03-01T18:18:22Z olferino quit (Excess Flood) 2021-03-01T18:22:15Z pyc: I am able to implement Unix basename like functionality with this code: (make-pathname :name (pathname-name file) :type (pathname-type file)). Does this look alright? 2021-03-01T18:22:20Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-03-01T18:22:53Z jackdaniel: looks correct at a glance, yes 2021-03-01T18:23:07Z jackdaniel: (given that the misleading name "file" means "pathname":) 2021-03-01T18:25:17Z meursault joined #lisp 2021-03-01T18:26:08Z pyc: jackdaniel: thanks. let me fix that. 2021-03-01T18:26:15Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-01T18:26:31Z iskander- quit (Quit: bye) 2021-03-01T18:26:39Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-03-01T18:28:02Z varjag: fitzsim: i made a clisp layer a while ago i think 2021-03-01T18:28:32Z varjag: https://github.com/varjagg/recipes-lisp 2021-03-01T18:28:53Z fitzsim: varjag: nice, thanks; I'll try it out 2021-03-01T18:30:02Z varjag: haven't used it much myself tbh, the project in question builds with lispworks 2021-03-01T18:30:19Z olferino joined #lisp 2021-03-01T18:30:19Z olferino quit (Excess Flood) 2021-03-01T18:30:24Z varjag: which is its own pain to package with yocto/qemu 2021-03-01T18:31:44Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2021-03-01T18:32:15Z olferino joined #lisp 2021-03-01T18:32:25Z olferino quit (Excess Flood) 2021-03-01T18:33:39Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-01T18:33:51Z pyc: Is there anyway to do this: (let ((a 1) (b (+ a 1))) (format t "a: ~a; b: ~a~%" a b)). This code of course fails with: The variable A is unbound. But I would like to know if there is a way to achieve this in another way? I want to avoid nesting 'let' within 'let'. 2021-03-01T18:34:14Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-03-01T18:34:14Z epony quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-01T18:34:40Z Bike: use let* instead 2021-03-01T18:34:54Z pyc: thanks 2021-03-01T18:35:13Z pyc: one question though. why does 'let' exist at all? Can 'lambda' not achieve the same result that 'let' does? 2021-03-01T18:35:21Z contrapunctus quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-01T18:35:59Z pranavats quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-01T18:36:02Z Bike: sure, and you could just nest LET instead of using LET* 2021-03-01T18:36:38Z olferino joined #lisp 2021-03-01T18:36:49Z olferino quit (Excess Flood) 2021-03-01T18:36:55Z pyc: so is 'let' merely syntactic sugar around 'lambda'? 2021-03-01T18:37:25Z White_Flame: if you assume that the compiler is smart enough to optimize away the function construction & call, then they're equivalent 2021-03-01T18:37:34Z epony joined #lisp 2021-03-01T18:37:37Z pyc: and even defuns can be lambdas assigned to a function name, right? 2021-03-01T18:37:53Z White_Flame: yes, and that is sometimes done manually 2021-03-01T18:38:01Z White_Flame: (setf (symbol-function 'foo) (lambda ...)) 2021-03-01T18:38:02Z Bike: LET is a special operator, so an implementation can choose to implement it as a macro for a lambda form, or to handle it directly 2021-03-01T18:38:10Z pyc: so is it all just lambdas all the way down? 2021-03-01T18:38:16Z Bike: Scheme does define LET as a macro, i think 2021-03-01T18:38:35Z perrier-jouet quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-03-01T18:38:44Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-01T18:38:55Z White_Flame: pyc: there are a number of ways you could slice CL down to a small number of core forms, and certainly LAMBDA is one of them 2021-03-01T18:39:17Z White_Flame: but practicality means that the various patterns that one might construct from those get first-class support 2021-03-01T18:39:22Z pyc: White_Flame: what are a few others apart from lambda? 2021-03-01T18:39:38Z White_Flame: things like do you implement COND from IF, or IF from COND 2021-03-01T18:39:51Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-03-01T18:40:08Z White_Flame: and you can't directly make IF a function which calls LAMBDA. You need macro support 2021-03-01T18:40:43Z White_Flame: because calling a function object evaluates all its parameters, and IF doesn't do that 2021-03-01T18:41:15Z Bike: there are also some fiddly bits. you could define (defun name lambda-list body) to expand to `(setf (fdefinition ',name) (lambda ,lambda-list ,@body)), except most implementations give function objects names for human inspection, and the latter form may not attach a name 2021-03-01T18:41:31Z pyc: White_Flame: understood. I don't know much about lambda calculus. I have this question. is it theoretically possible to make something like 'if' or 'when' using lambda calculus? 2021-03-01T18:41:33Z White_Flame: and underlying IF/COND/CASE might be TAGBODY 2021-03-01T18:41:53Z olferino joined #lisp 2021-03-01T18:41:58Z White_Flame: (if (lambda () ..then-forms..) (lambda () ..else-forms..)) 2021-03-01T18:42:01Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-01T18:42:03Z olferino quit (Excess Flood) 2021-03-01T18:42:07Z White_Flame: then the IF implementation could choose which function to call 2021-03-01T18:42:33Z Bike: pyc: sure. you define true as (lambda (x y) x) and false as (lambda (x y) y), and then (if cond then else) is just (funcall cond then else). 2021-03-01T18:42:50Z Bike: of course that will evaluate everything, like white flame said 2021-03-01T18:42:56Z White_Flame: but then you also need some primitive which can make a choice and access 1 of 2 objects to call, which by definition is IF itself, so... 2021-03-01T18:43:13Z puchacz quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-01T18:43:31Z White_Flame: I'm not huge into formal lambda calculus either, but I presume there exists a representation for it 2021-03-01T18:44:20Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-01T18:44:50Z White_Flame: eg, (defun true (a b) a) (defun false (a b) b), such that the IF might call (funcall (funcall bool a b)) given a boolean which is #'true or #'false 2021-03-01T18:44:54Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-03-01T18:45:00Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-03-01T18:45:12Z White_Flame: but then how does one convert a value into #'true or #'false using pure lambda calc? dunno :) 2021-03-01T18:45:31Z Bike: you don't convert, you just use those functions as your booleans. 2021-03-01T18:46:05Z White_Flame: how does a check for NIL work without a primitive IF? 2021-03-01T18:46:23Z White_Flame: or, numeric less-than? 2021-03-01T18:46:27Z olferino joined #lisp 2021-03-01T18:46:37Z puchacz joined #lisp 2021-03-01T18:46:38Z olferino quit (Excess Flood) 2021-03-01T18:46:59Z White_Flame: meaning, at runtime the system has to choose #'true or #'false based on non-boolean inputs 2021-03-01T18:47:32Z White_Flame: so at this point, one simply turns to practicality and the functionality that the CPU/environment already supplies, regardless of lambda calc, and handwave such things away :) 2021-03-01T18:48:04Z White_Flame: (or start implementing church numerals etc) 2021-03-01T18:48:17Z White_Flame: purity has its cost 2021-03-01T18:48:53Z Bike: i mean, yeah, you do all that stuff in church encoding. it's doable, if not practical 2021-03-01T18:49:08Z olferino joined #lisp 2021-03-01T18:49:13Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-01T18:49:18Z olferino quit (Excess Flood) 2021-03-01T18:49:24Z iskander quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-01T18:50:04Z White_Flame: I shudder to think what the floating point equivalent of church numerals would be 2021-03-01T18:50:39Z White_Flame: or string implementations 2021-03-01T18:51:07Z White_Flame: (well, strings would probably be easier, just a cons list of church numerals) 2021-03-01T18:59:52Z olferino joined #lisp 2021-03-01T19:00:01Z olferino quit (Excess Flood) 2021-03-01T19:04:28Z Bourne quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-01T19:04:30Z olferino joined #lisp 2021-03-01T19:04:31Z olferino quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2021-03-01T19:05:08Z olferino joined #lisp 2021-03-01T19:05:18Z olferino quit (Excess Flood) 2021-03-01T19:05:21Z karlosz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-01T19:06:13Z pyc: given a relative directory path say "foo/bar/baz/", what is a good way to extract "baz/" out of it? Is there a pathname function to do that? Looking for something similar to shell's basename foo/bar/baz/. 2021-03-01T19:06:30Z Xach: pyc: look at the pathname-directory components 2021-03-01T19:08:37Z olferino joined #lisp 2021-03-01T19:08:47Z olferino quit (Excess Flood) 2021-03-01T19:10:12Z meursault quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-01T19:13:42Z pyc: Xach: thanks. so I arrived at: (last (pathname-directory "/foo/bar/baz")). It returns "baz". How can I force it to become "baz/" so that it represents a directory path? 2021-03-01T19:15:11Z Xach: pyc: (make-pathname :directory (list :relative "baz")) 2021-03-01T19:17:08Z pyc: thanks Xach 2021-03-01T19:21:07Z vaporatorius__ joined #lisp 2021-03-01T19:21:33Z vaporatorius quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-01T19:22:24Z sauvin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-01T19:23:21Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-01T19:24:46Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-03-01T19:26:44Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-03-01T19:27:13Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-03-01T19:28:28Z Christ0pher is now known as anunnaki 2021-03-01T19:29:04Z Alfr: pyc, as you seem to have decided to go down the pathname rabbit hole w/ all of its "Complicated defaulting behavior", you might consider reading: 2021-03-01T19:29:08Z Alfr: clhs 19 2021-03-01T19:29:08Z specbot: Filenames: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/19_.htm 2021-03-01T19:29:39Z gioyik quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-01T19:30:05Z landakram joined #lisp 2021-03-01T19:30:19Z gioyik joined #lisp 2021-03-01T19:33:14Z cage_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-01T19:34:09Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-01T19:34:09Z ewd quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-01T19:34:14Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-03-01T19:34:24Z cage_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-01T19:35:44Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-03-01T19:40:06Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone) 2021-03-01T19:45:50Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-03-01T19:48:09Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-01T19:49:41Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-03-01T19:49:55Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-01T19:56:19Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-01T19:58:52Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-01T19:59:28Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2021-03-01T20:00:46Z Josh_2: Ello 2021-03-01T20:01:25Z warweasle: Is there a lisp web framework that handles two factor authorization and other such things? 2021-03-01T20:01:45Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-01T20:04:42Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-01T20:05:24Z arpunk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-01T20:11:55Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-01T20:18:36Z Krystof quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-01T20:22:11Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-01T20:24:39Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-01T20:26:54Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-03-01T20:31:07Z Krystof joined #lisp 2021-03-01T20:31:18Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-03-01T20:32:27Z palter joined #lisp 2021-03-01T20:34:49Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-01T20:39:11Z freshmaker666 is now known as greeb 2021-03-01T20:39:34Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-01T20:41:40Z warweasle quit (Quit: later) 2021-03-01T20:45:24Z anunnaki is now known as KeyboardWorrier 2021-03-01T20:48:51Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-01T20:50:01Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-01T20:51:11Z scymtym joined #lisp 2021-03-01T20:52:09Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-01T20:53:46Z retropikzel quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-01T20:54:16Z entel quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-01T20:59:17Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-03-01T21:02:27Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-03-01T21:10:04Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-01T21:10:45Z caret quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-01T21:27:17Z perrier-jouet joined #lisp 2021-03-01T21:28:23Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-01T21:28:38Z ex_nihilo_ joined #lisp 2021-03-01T21:28:56Z ex_nihilo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-01T21:34:14Z antonv joined #lisp 2021-03-01T21:41:31Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-03-01T21:42:08Z jasom: minion: memo for warweasle: https://github.com/bhyde/cl-one-time-passwords 2021-03-01T21:42:10Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell warweasle when he/she/it next speaks. 2021-03-01T21:44:10Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-01T21:44:45Z warweasle joined #lisp 2021-03-01T21:50:39Z antonv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-01T21:58:29Z retropikzel joined #lisp 2021-03-01T22:02:00Z pillton joined #lisp 2021-03-01T22:08:33Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-01T22:09:10Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-01T22:10:49Z retropikzel quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-01T22:32:39Z hjudt quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-01T22:33:23Z araujo joined #lisp 2021-03-01T22:33:31Z warweasle: Ok.. so alt-enter closes all sexeps and executes. That's good to know. 2021-03-01T22:33:31Z minion: warweasle, memo from jasom: https://github.com/bhyde/cl-one-time-passwords 2021-03-01T22:33:46Z araujo is now known as Guest75841 2021-03-01T22:34:03Z warweasle: minion: Thatnks! 2021-03-01T22:34:04Z minion: you speak nonsense 2021-03-01T22:34:05Z warweasle: THanks. 2021-03-01T22:34:59Z kaiwulf joined #lisp 2021-03-01T22:35:10Z Guest75841 quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-01T22:36:31Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-03-01T22:37:03Z rozenglass quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-01T22:37:55Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-01T22:38:07Z puchacz quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-01T22:44:24Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2021-03-01T22:55:44Z ex_nihilo_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-01T22:57:16Z egp_ joined #lisp 2021-03-01T22:57:56Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-01T23:01:04Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-03-01T23:04:45Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-01T23:06:40Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-01T23:06:40Z karlosz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-01T23:06:51Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-01T23:08:45Z pve quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-01T23:09:59Z warweasle: Eventually you just have to stop planning and start writing code. 2021-03-01T23:12:12Z surabax_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-01T23:13:43Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-03-01T23:14:36Z jasom: pyc: uiop has a lot of utility functions for dealing with pathnames; try e.g. (uiop:ensure-directory-pathname "baz") 2021-03-01T23:17:56Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-01T23:19:32Z alanz: This is also useful: http://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/files.html 2021-03-01T23:20:21Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-01T23:23:25Z ptrkriz joined #lisp 2021-03-01T23:29:49Z kevingal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-01T23:29:50Z kevingal_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-01T23:31:22Z akoana joined #lisp 2021-03-01T23:33:51Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-03-01T23:35:39Z Wezl joined #lisp 2021-03-01T23:46:09Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-01T23:49:26Z jeosol joined #lisp 2021-03-01T23:53:56Z vutral_ joined #lisp 2021-03-01T23:56:16Z long4mud joined #lisp 2021-03-01T23:56:45Z thmprover joined #lisp 2021-03-01T23:57:24Z White_Flame: any hints on which of the myriad XML libs to use, preferring a sax style of processing? 2021-03-01T23:57:49Z White_Flame: read-only is fine 2021-03-01T23:57:55Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-01T23:58:05Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2021-03-01T23:58:39Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2021-03-01T23:59:12Z terpri quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-02T00:03:48Z cosimone quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-02T00:08:34Z iskander quit (Quit: bye) 2021-03-02T00:10:15Z Wezl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-02T00:13:06Z nicktick joined #lisp 2021-03-02T00:17:29Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-03-02T00:17:52Z jasom: White_Flame: do you need to suport dtds/validation? 2021-03-02T00:21:11Z hineios joined #lisp 2021-03-02T00:23:49Z iskander quit (Quit: bye) 2021-03-02T00:26:58Z jasom: White_Flame: if you do need DTDs &c. CXML is by far the best (but make sure you use a custom entity-resolver if you have untrusted inputs) 2021-03-02T00:27:19Z White_Flame: s-xml seems to fit hte bill 2021-03-02T00:27:34Z White_Flame: so I'll ask again if it ceases to :) 2021-03-02T00:27:52Z jasom: White_Flame: that was gong to be my tentative recommendation if you don't need DTDs 2021-03-02T00:28:11Z jasom: tentative as in "I haven't used it, but it's where I would start if I needed one" 2021-03-02T00:28:47Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-03-02T00:29:07Z White_Flame: a big lack in cliki is no voting/annotation about how the many libs compare relative to each other 2021-03-02T00:29:36Z jasom: It's a wiki, so one could add such an annotation 2021-03-02T00:30:14Z jasom: I think "the number of people who read cliki and have used an XML library in the past 10 years" is probably too small for voting to be useful? 2021-03-02T00:32:05Z Wezl joined #lisp 2021-03-02T00:32:52Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-02T00:37:41Z hineios quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-03-02T00:37:58Z jasom: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2319#2319 <-- whichever you decide on, make sure that this doesn't work 2021-03-02T00:38:10Z hineios joined #lisp 2021-03-02T00:39:06Z jasom: With CXML, that will include the contents of /etc/passwd in the resulting parse (but specifying an entity-resolver that always throws an error will prevent that) 2021-03-02T00:40:53Z jasom: at least nobody wired an http client into cxml, so out-of-the-box it won't let you make arbitrary http requests, unlike many other XML parsers 2021-03-02T00:41:27Z lisp-machine joined #lisp 2021-03-02T00:41:58Z lisp-machine quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-02T00:45:52Z terpri joined #lisp 2021-03-02T00:47:45Z Wezl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-02T01:02:30Z supercoven_ joined #lisp 2021-03-02T01:03:43Z terpri_ joined #lisp 2021-03-02T01:04:38Z supercoven quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-02T01:04:52Z terpri quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-02T01:06:21Z egp_ quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2021-03-02T01:06:49Z egp_ joined #lisp 2021-03-02T01:08:05Z IPmonger_ joined #lisp 2021-03-02T01:08:26Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-02T01:10:43Z warweasle quit (Quit: later) 2021-03-02T01:14:47Z Wezl joined #lisp 2021-03-02T01:24:11Z terpri_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-02T01:25:02Z grobe0ba quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-02T01:25:15Z grobe0ba joined #lisp 2021-03-02T01:28:47Z terpri joined #lisp 2021-03-02T01:33:39Z niac joined #lisp 2021-03-02T01:39:45Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-03-02T01:39:47Z skapate quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-02T01:40:21Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-03-02T01:40:26Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-03-02T01:40:26Z cartwright quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-02T01:42:23Z cartwright joined #lisp 2021-03-02T01:44:38Z akoana quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-02T01:46:14Z cchristiansen joined #lisp 2021-03-02T01:49:39Z warweasle joined #lisp 2021-03-02T01:50:34Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-03-02T01:56:47Z Wezl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-02T02:03:24Z vutral_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-02T02:04:14Z cpt_nemo_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-02T02:10:09Z grumble quit (Ping timeout: 624 seconds) 2021-03-02T02:10:29Z ptrkriz quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-03-02T02:12:33Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-02T02:14:22Z grumble joined #lisp 2021-03-02T02:15:41Z cpt_nemo joined #lisp 2021-03-02T02:21:12Z warweasle quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 26.1) 2021-03-02T02:25:49Z semz joined #lisp 2021-03-02T02:25:49Z semz quit (Changing host) 2021-03-02T02:25:49Z semz joined #lisp 2021-03-02T02:26:18Z Alfr_ joined #lisp 2021-03-02T02:27:43Z Alfr quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-02T02:29:24Z wusticality joined #lisp 2021-03-02T02:36:40Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-02T02:39:30Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-02T02:40:16Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-02T02:40:35Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-02T02:41:03Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2021-03-02T02:56:25Z jonatack_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-02T03:02:49Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2021-03-02T03:03:53Z Guest14107 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-02T03:04:02Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-02T03:04:13Z nopf quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-02T03:05:03Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-02T03:05:04Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2021-03-02T03:08:31Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-02T03:10:18Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-02T03:11:52Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-02T03:12:02Z DateMasamune2000 joined #lisp 2021-03-02T03:12:07Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-02T03:12:18Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-03-02T03:13:03Z DateMasamune2000 quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-02T03:15:17Z Guest99088 joined #lisp 2021-03-02T03:17:51Z nopf joined #lisp 2021-03-02T03:18:36Z tinhatcat joined #lisp 2021-03-02T03:19:46Z Sheilong quit 2021-03-02T03:21:16Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-02T03:22:27Z madage joined #lisp 2021-03-02T03:29:15Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-02T03:30:22Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-02T03:34:57Z easye quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-02T03:34:57Z Blkt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-02T03:34:57Z fe[nl]ix quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-02T03:44:36Z Blkt joined #lisp 2021-03-02T03:44:37Z fe[nl]ix joined #lisp 2021-03-02T03:44:37Z ChanServ has set mode +o fe[nl]ix 2021-03-02T03:56:15Z landakram quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-02T03:58:03Z tinhatcat quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-02T03:58:13Z tinhatcat joined #lisp 2021-03-02T04:02:24Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2021-03-02T04:02:47Z ioa_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-02T04:02:49Z Alfr__ joined #lisp 2021-03-02T04:02:49Z Alfr__ is now known as Alfr 2021-03-02T04:03:49Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-02T04:04:27Z gioyik quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-02T04:04:27Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-02T04:04:27Z zooey quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-02T04:04:27Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-02T04:04:55Z Alfr_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-02T04:05:04Z cartwright quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-02T04:06:24Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-03-02T04:08:01Z xseraphsanctumx joined #lisp 2021-03-02T04:08:39Z xseraphsanctumx left #lisp 2021-03-02T04:10:51Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-02T04:11:10Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-02T04:11:34Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-02T04:14:51Z ioa joined #lisp 2021-03-02T04:16:14Z zooey joined #lisp 2021-03-02T04:16:24Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp 2021-03-02T04:16:27Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-03-02T04:16:33Z madage joined #lisp 2021-03-02T04:17:39Z cartwright joined #lisp 2021-03-02T04:21:25Z gioyik joined #lisp 2021-03-02T04:24:41Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-02T04:44:41Z tuoyuz joined #lisp 2021-03-02T04:46:00Z tuoyuz quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-03-02T04:46:47Z tuoyuz joined #lisp 2021-03-02T04:49:30Z thmprover quit (Quit: Another long day's journey into night.) 2021-03-02T04:50:33Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-02T04:51:07Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp 2021-03-02T04:52:16Z judson_ joined #lisp 2021-03-02T04:52:19Z tuoyuz left #lisp 2021-03-02T05:04:39Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-02T05:05:25Z asarch joined #lisp 2021-03-02T05:07:45Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-02T05:12:42Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-02T05:13:09Z wxie joined #lisp 2021-03-02T05:14:02Z nicktick joined #lisp 2021-03-02T05:14:36Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-02T05:14:40Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-02T05:16:29Z holycow joined #lisp 2021-03-02T05:17:55Z tinhatcat quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-02T05:22:06Z tinhatcat joined #lisp 2021-03-02T05:22:07Z fe[nl]ix: Eitaro Fukamachi is now accepting sponsorship: https://github.com/sponsors/fukamachi 2021-03-02T05:22:18Z fe[nl]ix: in case anyone's interested :) 2021-03-02T05:31:48Z holycow: oh neat 2021-03-02T05:32:15Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-03-02T05:34:57Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-03-02T05:42:33Z dvdmuckle quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-02T05:46:24Z dvdmuckle joined #lisp 2021-03-02T05:47:28Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-02T05:51:26Z judson_ joined #lisp 2021-03-02T05:54:33Z dvdmuckle quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-02T05:56:51Z dvdmuckle joined #lisp 2021-03-02T05:56:58Z landakram joined #lisp 2021-03-02T05:57:15Z kaiwulf quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-02T05:58:49Z susam: Good morning beach! 2021-03-02T05:58:53Z susam: Good morning everyone! 2021-03-02T06:09:52Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2021-03-02T06:10:53Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-02T06:15:49Z CrazyEddy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-02T06:20:40Z sauvin joined #lisp 2021-03-02T06:24:44Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-03-02T06:27:08Z cchristiansen quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-02T06:29:53Z pyc quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-02T06:30:10Z pyc joined #lisp 2021-03-02T06:33:40Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2021-03-02T06:37:34Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-02T06:50:30Z asarch: That's great for Eitaro! 2021-03-02T06:50:50Z asarch: I thought he was dead :-( 2021-03-02T06:50:59Z asarch: But that's great! :-) 2021-03-02T06:52:10Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-02T06:54:55Z louis771 quit (Quit: My M1 has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-02T06:55:44Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-03-02T06:57:17Z pyc: is there a way to check if string "foo" is in string x? equivalent to `"foo" in x` construct of Python? 2021-03-02T06:58:46Z Nilby: clhs search 2021-03-02T06:58:46Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_search.htm 2021-03-02T06:59:56Z Nilby: Don't forget to check the sequences section when looking for functions useful for strings. 2021-03-02T07:00:51Z pyc: thanks Nilby 2021-03-02T07:07:09Z louis771: Good morning 2021-03-02T07:07:52Z Cymew joined #lisp 2021-03-02T07:08:43Z louis771: Fukamachi does a lot for the CL community it seems 2021-03-02T07:08:45Z gioyik quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-03-02T07:08:57Z asarch: Caveman2 is awesome! 2021-03-02T07:09:04Z asarch: He is my hero! 2021-03-02T07:09:08Z asarch: :-) 2021-03-02T07:09:30Z louis771: I'm just getting starting with CL and want to do some web backend stuff with it... there is no way around his libraries. 2021-03-02T07:10:30Z pyc: i see that in some code examples, people write list and in some places people write '(). how do you decide which one to use where? For example, yesterday, Xach provided this example: (make-pathname :directory (list :relative "baz")). But I could write it as (make-pathname :directory '(:relative "baz")) too. so what should be my guiding principle to decide if I should use the list function or quoted 2021-03-02T07:10:32Z pyc: list? 2021-03-02T07:10:46Z louis771: And I totally agree that quickdocs.org must be revived if CL wants to attract newbies 2021-03-02T07:11:49Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-02T07:12:45Z louis771: pyc AFAIK use ' for lists you won't change, use list for lists you will add/remove stuff from 2021-03-02T07:13:05Z pyc: louis771: thanks that is a good principle. 2021-03-02T07:13:18Z louis771: if you use ' then the compiler is permitted to allocate l1 and l2 in a way that they share their common tail in the read-only memory 2021-03-02T07:13:53Z louis771: i.e. if you have lists l1 and l2 with some same data in it 2021-03-02T07:14:06Z wusticality quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-02T07:15:07Z beach: pyc: Though you can always (and should always) use '() for the empty list if it is a form, so intended to be evaluated. 2021-03-02T07:15:17Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-02T07:15:31Z pyc: how do you use SLIME REPL and code buffer together? if you want to test out the usage of some CLHS functions before using them in your app code, do you go to the REPL and type trial code there, or do you type it in the source code file buffer itself and evaluate there? 2021-03-02T07:16:08Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-02T07:16:25Z beach: Usually, the former. 2021-03-02T07:17:47Z susam: I use the file buffer itself. I almost never enter anything into the REPL directly. That way I am always editing a file. The main reason why I adopted this style of working is so that I don't have to type M-p to bring up old inputs in the REPL buffer. 2021-03-02T07:18:46Z beach: So do you have a specific buffer for REPL interactions? 2021-03-02T07:18:54Z Ardent joined #lisp 2021-03-02T07:19:15Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-02T07:19:25Z Ardent quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-02T07:20:18Z moon-child: beach: why '() over ()? 2021-03-02T07:20:43Z beach: moon-child: Let me find the relevant section in the Common Lisp HyperSpec. It is very hard to find usually. 2021-03-02T07:21:04Z susam: beach: I use the same file code buffer that I am currently working on. Say there is a (defun foo () ...) and there is a (defun bar () ...) in my buffer and I am working on foo. I just use the space between foo and bar as my scratch pad. I let that area become a mess. When I complete foo, I delete all the lines in the scratch pad area. 2021-03-02T07:21:16Z beach: I see. 2021-03-02T07:22:01Z moon-child: beach: heh, I can imagine, () is not a very searchable string 2021-03-02T07:22:07Z Nilby: When you have the spec in emacs info you can search with ^S 2021-03-02T07:22:30Z beach: moon-child: Yes, that's the problem. 2021-03-02T07:22:49Z pyc: interesting. let me see if I can adopt editing a file only workflow. I go to REPL often by habit. it will be nice if I don't have to switch context between REPL and file buffer so often 2021-03-02T07:24:54Z beach: clhs 1.4.1.4.4 2021-03-02T07:24:54Z specbot: NIL: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/01_dadd.htm 2021-03-02T07:25:13Z susam: Truth be told, I don't know if my style of working is more efficient than others'. I just shared what I do and it works for me. But always eager to learn better ways. I care a lot of coding ergonomics. I often wonder it would have been nice to have some sort of live coding community for CL so that I can see how others navigate their workspace, write code, manipulate code, etc. so that I can learn something from them. 2021-03-02T07:25:46Z beach: moon-child: That link was for you. 2021-03-02T07:26:12Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-03-02T07:26:13Z beach: Notice the line "Yes '() use as an empty list" 2021-03-02T07:26:41Z beach: moon-child: So () is used only for things like empty parameter lists or empty lists of superclasses. 2021-03-02T07:27:15Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-03-02T07:27:44Z Nilby: That lucky section is very hard to search for. 2021-03-02T07:27:55Z beach: Indeed. 2021-03-02T07:29:03Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2021-03-02T07:30:11Z Nilby: Interestingly section (sqrt 2) is called Numbers. 2021-03-02T07:31:03Z beach: Heh. 2021-03-02T07:31:23Z pillton quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-03-02T07:37:25Z abhixec quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-02T07:37:45Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-02T07:38:57Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-02T07:39:06Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-02T07:40:04Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-02T07:42:09Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-02T07:42:47Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-03-02T07:44:12Z moon-child: beach: thanks! 2021-03-02T07:44:32Z beach: Pleasure. 2021-03-02T07:45:44Z tuoyuz joined #lisp 2021-03-02T07:45:47Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-02T07:45:50Z ldbeth: good afternnon 2021-03-02T07:46:14Z beach: Hello ldbeth. 2021-03-02T07:48:56Z surabax joined #lisp 2021-03-02T07:49:23Z ldbeth: susam: maybe we can find a place to do streaming or helding regular meetings remotely. 2021-03-02T07:53:37Z ldbeth: do you suggest (cons a nil) or (cons a '())? 2021-03-02T07:53:45Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-03-02T07:54:48Z jdz: (list a) 2021-03-02T07:55:23Z jdz: But if you have to use CONS, then the latter: '(). 2021-03-02T07:56:18Z jdz: ldbeth: Did you see the CLHS section beach linked above? 2021-03-02T07:58:57Z ldbeth: I see (cons a nil) a lot in old lisp source files. 2021-03-02T07:59:11Z ldbeth: Maybe that causes some confusion 2021-03-02T08:00:15Z ldbeth: jdz: yes i did 2021-03-02T08:00:53Z edgar-rft: I think I've never used '() in my code, but maybe that's because I'm an idiot :-) 2021-03-02T08:01:09Z Nilby: suam, ldbeth: I think it's quite useful to see how other Lispers work. e.g. check out Baggers or Shinmera's livestreams. It'd be cool to see people share their coding setup. 2021-03-02T08:01:12Z pve joined #lisp 2021-03-02T08:01:26Z Nilby: s/suam/susam/ 2021-03-02T08:02:27Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-02T08:02:39Z susam: ldbeth: Nilby: I agree. Will check out the live streams you suggested. 2021-03-02T08:02:47Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-02T08:02:57Z actuallybatman left #lisp 2021-03-02T08:04:33Z heisig joined #lisp 2021-03-02T08:05:15Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-02T08:05:27Z actuallybatman joined #lisp 2021-03-02T08:08:59Z pyc: (first '(1 2 3)) returns the integer 1. But (last '(1 2 3)) returns a list containing an integer: (3). Why this inconsistency? 2021-03-02T08:10:14Z edgar-rft: first returns a pointer to the first cons cell, last returns a pointer to the last cons cell, no inconsistency 2021-03-02T08:10:50Z beach: ldbeth: You use (cons a nil) if you want to create a CONS cell where the CAR is the value of A and the CDR is the Boolean value false. You use (cons a '() if you want to create a singleton list with the element in it that is the value of A. 2021-03-02T08:10:50Z ldbeth: probably because someone what last works on '(1 2 3 . 4) too 2021-03-02T08:11:46Z ldbeth: it makes no sense to return 3 for (last '(1 2 3 . 4)) 2021-03-02T08:11:54Z Nilby: pyc: because (1 2 3) is really (1 . (2 . (3 . nil))) 2021-03-02T08:12:13Z ldbeth: while '(1 2 3) is equal to '(1 2 3 . nil) 2021-03-02T08:13:22Z edgar-rft: it's the way how lisp *prints* cons cells and lists that causes the confusion 2021-03-02T08:13:24Z beach: ldbeth: And the fact that you see things in code (old or new) is no guarantee, because it depends on who wrote the code. As you have probably noticed, many people here don't give a damn about conventions. 2021-03-02T08:14:40Z ldbeth: beach: quite right, many people wrote these code probably learned lisp before ANSI CL 2021-03-02T08:15:14Z beach: Possibly. But you see violations of conventions in recent code as well. 2021-03-02T08:15:37Z pyc: Nilby: I am not sure I understand the consistency. I know that '(1 2 3) is (1 . (2 . (3 . nil))). Here the first cons cell contains 1 and a pointer to (2 . (3 . nil)). The last cons cell contains 3 and a pointer to nil. 2021-03-02T08:15:39Z beach: ... written by younger people. 2021-03-02T08:16:00Z pyc: Yet first returns only 1, no pointer to anything. But last returns 3 and a pointer to nil: (3 . nil) which is equivalent to (3). 2021-03-02T08:16:17Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-02T08:16:36Z beach: pyc: Be careful with how you use "is". '(1 2 3) *is* (quote (1 . (2 . (3 . nil)))) 2021-03-02T08:16:47Z holycow quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-03-02T08:17:41Z beach: pyc: It is just that LAST is more useful the way it is defined, because you can then use (SETF CDR) to add elements to the end. 2021-03-02T08:17:50Z beach: pyc: Forget about the name. 2021-03-02T08:18:08Z ldbeth: beach: I'm probably one of them, if havn't noticed this 2021-03-02T08:18:28Z beach: ldbeth: It's never too late. 2021-03-02T08:18:54Z beach: ldbeth: While you are at it, check your code for confusion between false and the default value NIL. 2021-03-02T08:19:22Z beach: Like (let ((person (find ...))) (when person...)) 2021-03-02T08:20:50Z Nilby: pyc: I guess you're right. Maybe that's why I like Lisp. It seems to value programming practicality over total abstract consistency. 2021-03-02T08:21:40Z markasoftware: how do I get a method combination object by name? 2021-03-02T08:22:59Z hjudt joined #lisp 2021-03-02T08:23:11Z beach: mop find-method-combination 2021-03-02T08:23:11Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/find-method-combination.html 2021-03-02T08:23:31Z beach: But that's not quite what you are asking is it? 2021-03-02T08:23:42Z markasoftware: why does that need a generic function as its first argument? 2021-03-02T08:23:57Z beach: It's a mystery. 2021-03-02T08:24:11Z markasoftware: can it be...any gf? 2021-03-02T08:25:49Z beach: I may have written something in http://metamodular.com/SICL/representing-method-combinations.pdf 2021-03-02T08:26:55Z hiroaki_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-02T08:27:51Z terpri quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-02T08:28:09Z tuoyuz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-02T08:29:44Z markasoftware: interesting 2021-03-02T08:30:10Z beach: In SICL I use the first argument for dispatch only. 2021-03-02T08:30:21Z pyc: thanks beach, Nilby for the explanation of 'last' behavior 2021-03-02T08:30:37Z terpri joined #lisp 2021-03-02T08:31:16Z beach: Pleasure. 2021-03-02T08:32:00Z terpri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-02T08:32:22Z ldbeth: beach: do you use any specific schema for implementing multiple return values in SICL? I don't find it in the current specification. 2021-03-02T08:32:47Z terpri joined #lisp 2021-03-02T08:34:56Z beach: What do you mean by "schema". The idea on the x86 is to use the unused space immediately beyond the stack pointer, plus a few registers. That turns out to be enough for the minimum limit. 2021-03-02T08:38:10Z ldbeth: It is about what will happen if the called function is inlined 2021-03-02T08:39:02Z hiroaki_ joined #lisp 2021-03-02T08:39:19Z beach: If a function that returns multiple values is inlined, then, depending on what is known about that function at compile time, some optimization can take place. Is that what you are asking? 2021-03-02T08:39:31Z ldbeth: Yes 2021-03-02T08:40:11Z beach: But I haven't implemented such optimizations yet. Maybe Clasp has. 2021-03-02T08:40:16Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-02T08:42:44Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-03-02T08:43:09Z tuoyuz joined #lisp 2021-03-02T08:43:29Z ldbeth: Ah, I think mv return is a feature been overlooked, especially in functional programming languages that having nice optimization to reduce consing for currying, but still return an vector/tuple for multiple results. 2021-03-02T08:44:59Z ldbeth: beach: Thank you, I'll try if i can get something from Clasp 2021-03-02T08:46:51Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-02T08:47:00Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-02T08:51:14Z kenran joined #lisp 2021-03-02T09:00:54Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-02T09:04:59Z tuoyuz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-02T09:06:06Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-02T09:07:47Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-03-02T09:07:55Z retropikzel joined #lisp 2021-03-02T09:08:28Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-02T09:10:19Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-02T09:10:48Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-02T09:13:56Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-02T09:14:05Z catt joined #lisp 2021-03-02T09:16:30Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-02T09:20:47Z ldbeth quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-02T09:21:02Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-02T09:21:33Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-02T09:31:40Z iskander quit (Quit: bye) 2021-03-02T09:39:14Z pyc: what do you prefer: car or first? cdr or rest? 2021-03-02T09:39:48Z beach: pyc: You use CAR when you are manipulating CONS cells and FIRST when you are manipulating lists. 2021-03-02T09:40:06Z pyc: beach: nice rule. thanks! 2021-03-02T09:40:28Z beach: Like for instance in an alist, the elements are not lists, they are CONS cells with key and value. 2021-03-02T09:41:37Z susam: pyc: Check this: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_rest.htm - "rest is often preferred stylistically over cdr when the argument is to being subjectively viewed as a list rather than as a cons." 2021-03-02T09:42:21Z pyc: oh the CLHS offers coding convention guidelines too! thanks! 2021-03-02T09:42:44Z beach: Definitely. It even tells you how many semicolons to use in comments. 2021-03-02T09:42:56Z beach: And, don't forget the NIL rule we just discussed. 2021-03-02T09:49:57Z pranavats joined #lisp 2021-03-02T09:52:22Z kenran quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-02T10:00:16Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-02T10:01:35Z frost-lab quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-02T10:01:58Z pve: It's good that the NIL-rule was brought up. I wasn't aware that it (or that hyperspec page) existed. I knew people sometimes used '(), but always assumed it was for reasons related to personal taste. 2021-03-02T10:03:55Z beach: Now you know. 2021-03-02T10:03:57Z flip214 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-02T10:05:41Z flip214 joined #lisp 2021-03-02T10:06:00Z flip214 quit (Changing host) 2021-03-02T10:06:00Z flip214 joined #lisp 2021-03-02T10:06:01Z pve: I might need to do some find 'n' replacing to hide my shameful past. 2021-03-02T10:06:36Z landakram quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-02T10:07:09Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-02T10:07:32Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-02T10:08:21Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-02T10:08:25Z wxie1 joined #lisp 2021-03-02T10:09:41Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-03-02T10:09:42Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2021-03-02T10:09:42Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-03-02T10:10:46Z wxie1 is now known as wxie 2021-03-02T10:13:05Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2021-03-02T10:16:25Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-03-02T10:29:08Z warweasle joined #lisp 2021-03-02T10:32:16Z entel joined #lisp 2021-03-02T10:32:56Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-02T10:33:33Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-02T10:35:35Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-02T10:44:04Z Oddity quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-02T10:46:10Z madage joined #lisp 2021-03-02T10:46:14Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-02T10:55:35Z iskander quit (Quit: bye) 2021-03-02T10:56:52Z VincentVega joined #lisp 2021-03-02T11:00:06Z vegansbane6963 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-03-02T11:01:35Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-03-02T11:09:37Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-02T11:11:05Z warweasle: For some reason (or ... Will return all the values of the first argument, but only the first value of the rest. Is that expected behavior? 2021-03-02T11:16:33Z scymtym: it is the other way around: only the first value of all forms but the final one and all values of the final one. it is specified like that in http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/m_or.htm 2021-03-02T11:20:59Z warweasle: scymtym: Ah... Ok. I ended up wrapping each case with multi-value-binds. 2021-03-02T11:29:15Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-03-02T11:30:32Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-02T11:31:00Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-03-02T11:31:00Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2021-03-02T11:31:00Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-03-02T11:44:07Z ebrasca: is there media server in common lisp? 2021-03-02T11:44:16Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-02T11:44:32Z ebrasca: like images , video web server. 2021-03-02T11:50:18Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-03-02T11:50:58Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2021-03-02T11:52:45Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-02T11:56:58Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-03-02T12:05:21Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-02T12:05:50Z ewd joined #lisp 2021-03-02T12:11:57Z niac quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-02T12:19:27Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-02T12:21:40Z flip214: ebrasca: using HTTP, or RTP? what protocols do you require? 2021-03-02T12:24:55Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-03-02T12:25:53Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-03-02T12:28:35Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-02T12:28:49Z Alfr quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-02T12:29:12Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-03-02T12:29:13Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-02T12:29:35Z Alfr quit (Changing host) 2021-03-02T12:29:35Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-03-02T12:31:34Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-02T12:43:46Z kenran joined #lisp 2021-03-02T12:46:27Z ebrasca: http 2021-03-02T12:47:00Z flip214: well, just use hunchentoot?! 2021-03-02T12:47:19Z ebrasca: are there RTP in lisp? 2021-03-02T12:48:24Z ebrasca: flip214: Thanks! 2021-03-02T13:01:38Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-03-02T13:05:35Z flip214: ebrasca: well, perhaps it would be easiest to just pass an RTP socket on to ffmpeg or so... 2021-03-02T13:11:40Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-03-02T13:12:32Z iskander quit (Quit: bye) 2021-03-02T13:16:26Z Sheilong joined #lisp 2021-03-02T13:25:53Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-02T13:29:29Z shka_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-02T13:30:24Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-03-02T13:30:53Z mrchampion quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-02T13:32:30Z niac joined #lisp 2021-03-02T13:32:55Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-03-02T13:35:11Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-03-02T13:37:24Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-02T13:39:20Z ebrasca: How to stream videos with hunchentoot? 2021-03-02T13:51:56Z hjudt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-02T13:52:21Z catt quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-02T13:56:09Z VincentVega97 joined #lisp 2021-03-02T13:56:43Z VincentVega quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-02T13:57:18Z VincentVega97 quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-02T14:01:09Z kam1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-02T14:02:56Z jackdaniel: hunchentoot serves files, it is a web server. you may either serve a static file (i.e webm like here http://turtleware.eu/static/paste/9736edb5-eduardo.webm), embed the link ink html, or write some fancy javascript program that performs actual streaming 2021-03-02T14:03:40Z jackdaniel: in other words hunchentoot does not concern itself with anything beyond http(s) protocol, hunchensocket adds websockets to the mix - you could use that if you had wanted to implement streaming 2021-03-02T14:04:47Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-02T14:05:08Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-02T14:05:55Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-02T14:06:42Z terpri joined #lisp 2021-03-02T14:11:24Z catt joined #lisp 2021-03-02T14:14:48Z nicktick joined #lisp 2021-03-02T14:14:55Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-02T14:17:04Z niac quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-02T14:17:21Z niac joined #lisp 2021-03-02T14:22:04Z kaiwulf joined #lisp 2021-03-02T14:24:18Z warweasle: I made one of the classic blunders: I forgot to define my problem before I started coding. 2021-03-02T14:24:21Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-02T14:24:42Z Josh_2: Afternoon 2021-03-02T14:25:21Z warweasle: Josh_2: Morn'n. 2021-03-02T14:25:21Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-03-02T14:26:05Z Josh_2: warweasle: It's okay to not define your problem because I bet you run into lots of them when you start xD 2021-03-02T14:26:25Z warweasle: This is a true thing you said. 2021-03-02T14:28:43Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2021-03-02T14:29:40Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-03-02T14:30:01Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-03-02T14:33:15Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2021-03-02T14:33:35Z niac quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-02T14:35:34Z long4mud quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-02T14:35:51Z niac joined #lisp 2021-03-02T14:41:07Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-02T14:41:46Z Alfr quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-02T14:48:11Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-02T14:55:16Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-02T14:55:29Z Josh_2: How do I convert a hex string (from ironclad) to a normal string? 2021-03-02T14:56:18Z niac quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-02T14:56:27Z Bike: what do you mean, a normal string? 2021-03-02T14:56:37Z niac joined #lisp 2021-03-02T14:56:43Z Josh_2: well i'm not sure 2021-03-02T14:56:58Z pyc: "4142" becomes "AB"? 2021-03-02T14:56:59Z jackdaniel: maybe feed it to #'babel:octets-to-string 2021-03-02T14:57:25Z Josh_2: I tried that jackdaniel 2021-03-02T14:57:46Z Bike: could you give us some kind of description of what you have versus what you want 2021-03-02T14:58:20Z Josh_2: when using the sha256 digest in ironclad it returns a byte array, then this byte array is converted to a string using ironclad:byte-array-to-hex-string 2021-03-02T14:58:24Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-02T14:58:57Z Josh_2: I tried using babel:octets-to-string but it signals an condition about illegal characters 2021-03-02T14:59:15Z Bike: well it's a sha256 digest, right? it's not text 2021-03-02T15:00:03Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-02T15:00:34Z Josh_2: right, however I'm trying to compare the output of the ironclad implementation to the implementation I am calling with FFI 2021-03-02T15:00:47Z mfiano: Then you should be comparing bytes 2021-03-02T15:00:55Z Josh_2: but the FFI version returns a base64 encoded string 2021-03-02T15:00:57Z Bike: the one you're calling with FFI isn't giving you text either 2021-03-02T15:01:20Z Bike: you should decode it into bytes, then 2021-03-02T15:01:24Z Josh_2: Okay 2021-03-02T15:01:32Z Bike: or base64-encode the bytes you get from ironclad, i guess 2021-03-02T15:01:57Z iskander quit (Quit: bye) 2021-03-02T15:02:30Z Josh_2: I will try a different base64 library 2021-03-02T15:02:38Z Josh_2: base64 doesn't support binary conversion 2021-03-02T15:03:29Z Bike: your library can encode numbers into base64 text but not decode? 2021-03-02T15:04:35Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-03-02T15:04:37Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-02T15:06:55Z Josh_2: huh? 2021-03-02T15:06:58Z rpg joined #lisp 2021-03-02T15:06:59Z Josh_2: base64 isn't my library 2021-03-02T15:07:07Z pyc: I know we discussed 'first' vs. 'car' usage today. One is used when we are thinking of lists and the other when we are thinking of cons cells even though they are equivalent. But I am confuesd about this. To select the last item in a list, should I use (first (last '(1 2 3))) or (car (last '(1 2 3)))? 2021-03-02T15:07:23Z Bike: well, whatever you're using 2021-03-02T15:07:29Z mfiano: base64 does everything it needs to do 2021-03-02T15:07:46Z Bike: having a library that can encode but not decode just sounds a little weird to me 2021-03-02T15:07:53Z Bike: that "doesn't support binary conversion" 2021-03-02T15:08:13Z pyc: even though I think I am working with lists here, I get the feeling that 'car' is more appropriate than 'first' because 'last' works on a list and returns a cons cell, so now that we are thinking "cons cell", 'car' becomes more appropriate than 'first'. 2021-03-02T15:08:17Z beach: pyc: (first (last ...)) 2021-03-02T15:08:30Z Josh_2: Bike: yes It's the library called 'base64' https://github.com/massung/base64 I'm using s-base64 now 2021-03-02T15:08:37Z beach: pyc: Well you have a point. 2021-03-02T15:08:45Z beach: pyc: I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. 2021-03-02T15:09:00Z mmmattyx joined #lisp 2021-03-02T15:09:15Z pyc: good point. maybe I should just choose one and be consistent. 2021-03-02T15:09:24Z beach: Sounds good. 2021-03-02T15:09:29Z mfiano: Josh_2: What is your point? That does both 2021-03-02T15:09:46Z Bike: why does this library work only on characters... 2021-03-02T15:10:18Z Bike: you can encode text into other text? i thought the point of base64 was for transmitting arbitrary data over text over channels 2021-03-02T15:12:40Z mfiano: Ah yes. Personally I have used #'cl-base64:usb8-array-to-base64-string for this 2021-03-02T15:14:44Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-03-02T15:15:10Z nicktick joined #lisp 2021-03-02T15:15:50Z Josh_2: mfiano: I don't have a point, Bike was enquiring about the library I was using 2021-03-02T15:16:42Z aartaka_d quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-02T15:19:56Z sjl joined #lisp 2021-03-02T15:27:04Z vaporatorius__ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-02T15:27:16Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2021-03-02T15:27:16Z vaporatorius quit (Changing host) 2021-03-02T15:27:16Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2021-03-02T15:29:30Z mrchampion joined #lisp 2021-03-02T15:29:50Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-02T15:30:57Z kenran quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-02T15:31:20Z phantomics joined #lisp 2021-03-02T15:34:12Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-03-02T15:34:46Z terpri quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-02T15:35:37Z terpri joined #lisp 2021-03-02T15:38:15Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-02T15:39:07Z Josh_2: Nice, finally got all my tests done and integrated nicely into the system 2021-03-02T15:44:31Z Josh_2: Xach: can I ask for someone else's code to go into quicklisp? borodust created bindings for me that are on his github and I don't see the point in using my fork as the version in quicklisp 2021-03-02T15:56:21Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-02T15:56:44Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-02T15:58:02Z amk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-02T16:01:14Z amk joined #lisp 2021-03-02T16:01:39Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-03-02T16:02:40Z niac quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-02T16:10:00Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-02T16:11:55Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-02T16:14:55Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-02T16:18:32Z Cymew joined #lisp 2021-03-02T16:20:59Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-03-02T16:25:40Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3)) 2021-03-02T16:26:43Z catt quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-02T16:29:13Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-03-02T16:29:13Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2021-03-02T16:29:13Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-03-02T16:29:22Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-02T16:30:06Z pyc: While editing in Emacs, is there a shortcut to autocomplete function names? 2021-03-02T16:31:44Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-03-02T16:34:46Z tinhatcat quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-02T16:34:53Z tinhatcat joined #lisp 2021-03-02T16:38:04Z beach: C-c C-i 2021-03-02T16:38:25Z pyc: thanks beach 2021-03-02T16:38:30Z beach: Sure. 2021-03-02T16:39:41Z orivej quit (Quit: orivej) 2021-03-02T16:40:50Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-02T16:41:08Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-02T16:41:09Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-02T16:43:37Z actuallybatman quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-02T16:45:10Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-03-02T16:45:40Z Josh_2: https://github.com/K1D77A/cl-megolm well after a couple of weeks I think I'm finally done! This was a struggle and a half 2021-03-02T16:46:31Z borodust: Josh_2: the most important point that my repo is unmaintained on birth and also linux-only :) i'm not planning to keep an eye on that codebase 2021-03-02T16:47:02Z borodust: Josh_2: also, congratz! :) 2021-03-02T16:47:03Z Josh_2: Well I don't have the means to update any of your bindings because you use claw 2021-03-02T16:47:30Z borodust: Josh_2: those are plain cffi ones, you can copy paste and edit as you see fit 2021-03-02T16:48:03Z Josh_2: I don't think that the matrix folks have updated the API for a long time 2021-03-02T16:48:07Z borodust: i do think they actually might work on windows/macos w/o chaning anything 2021-03-02T16:48:08Z Josh_2: oh I see 2021-03-02T16:48:26Z Josh_2: Okay I will use my fork then 2021-03-02T16:48:27Z borodust: due to api being ABI friendly 2021-03-02T16:48:29Z arpunk joined #lisp 2021-03-02T16:49:14Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-02T16:49:28Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-02T16:49:46Z pyc: are the parentheses useful to the programmer? I see some of lines have 5-6 trailing parentheses and sometimes even more than that. I find it hard to keep track of which one pairs with what manually. Emacs matches them up for me and that is the only way I am able to make sense of them. 2021-03-02T16:50:08Z pyc: is this how you guys deal with parentheses too? or are experienced Lisp programmers able to make sense of the parentheses manually too? 2021-03-02T16:50:10Z Josh_2: the parens indicate structure, but eventually they just fade away 2021-03-02T16:50:19Z Josh_2: you almost dont see them anymore 2021-03-02T16:50:28Z borodust: pyc: paredit is the key 2021-03-02T16:50:37Z gabc: I see the indentation, and if it's weird I feel that there's a problem in the structure 2021-03-02T16:50:39Z borodust: pyc: some also use rainbow parens 2021-03-02T16:50:52Z Josh_2: I use rainbow parens 2021-03-02T16:51:22Z pyc: borodust: thanks! I am using Emacs4CL that setup paredit and rainbow-delimiters for me. I am using both. 2021-03-02T16:51:34Z borodust: pyc: adventuruous folks sport parinfer 2021-03-02T16:51:45Z gabc: personally I don't like the rainbow distraction 2021-03-02T16:53:06Z gabc: I find lispy really nice tho 2021-03-02T16:53:10Z pyc: gabc: I did not find rainbow-delimiters distracting. but I didn't find it helpful either. It just makes the parentheses darker in color and they appear to fade away. 2021-03-02T16:53:45Z gabc: If it works for you, it works for you :) 2021-03-02T16:53:58Z pyc: see the Emacs4CL screenshot here: https://github.com/susam/emacs4cl - I never understood how rainbow-delimiters are helpful. all the parentheses look gray. do you also feel so? or am I the only one unable to appreciate rainbow delimiters in the screenshot? 2021-03-02T16:54:47Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-02T16:55:48Z pyc: I do see some difference in color of the parentheses. I don't know if it is my eyesight that is poor or if the difference between the colors is very negligible. I have to stare at them hard to be able to see any difference in colors by rainbow-delimiters. 2021-03-02T16:56:00Z gabc: Nah it looks quite dim 2021-03-02T16:56:05Z Bike: you can use emacs in like a window, right, where there will be actual colors 2021-03-02T16:56:11Z borodust: personally, paredit is all i need 2021-03-02T16:56:17Z Bike: in this particular screenshot they do just look all grey to me 2021-03-02T16:56:52Z gabc: Tho since it's really easy to try stuff in emacs I would recommend trying stuff out 2021-03-02T16:57:01Z pyc: glad to know it is not just me. if they all look grey indeed what is the value that rainbow-delimiters offer? 2021-03-02T16:57:05Z Josh_2: If I want to add a library that depends on a foreign library how does Xach test if it builds? 2021-03-02T16:58:03Z Bike: pyc: https://ericscrivner.me/2015/06/better-emacs-rainbow-delimiters-color-scheme/ i haven't used rainbow delimiters, but here's someone agreeing with you and fixing it by making the colors a little wackier 2021-03-02T17:00:11Z pyc: Bike: thanks for that link. I never bothered to dig into rainbow-delimiters earlier to realize that the colors are configurable. of course it must be due to the nature of Emacs. but never bothered about it because my priority was to learn common lisp. will try the config in this post tonight. 2021-03-02T17:00:51Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-03-02T17:01:35Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-03-02T17:03:29Z dbotton quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-02T17:04:37Z Demosthenex: pyc: here's some rainbow generated i found somewhere once which i use in my init. https://dpaste.org/ohQw 2021-03-02T17:08:34Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-02T17:10:04Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-02T17:14:59Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-02T17:25:06Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-02T17:28:39Z mmmattyx quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-02T17:33:36Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-02T17:34:50Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-03-02T17:39:36Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp 2021-03-02T17:43:15Z vaporatorius quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-02T17:48:57Z drdee joined #lisp 2021-03-02T17:48:59Z drdee quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-02T17:51:43Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-02T17:52:55Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-03-02T17:54:34Z phantomics: Hey, a question: in CL implementations supporting Unicode, does (char-code) always give the Unicode code point for a character? 2021-03-02T17:56:16Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2021-03-02T17:56:17Z vaporatorius quit (Changing host) 2021-03-02T17:56:17Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2021-03-02T17:56:47Z Bike: usually. obviously there's no standard. 2021-03-02T17:56:51Z rpg joined #lisp 2021-03-02T17:58:29Z Bike: and of course with how unicode works there's not exactly a 1-1 mapping there 2021-03-02T17:58:46Z Bike: in my sbcl, "̀a" has length 2 2021-03-02T17:59:27Z judson_ joined #lisp 2021-03-02T18:03:20Z phantomics: Thanks Bike, combining characters can be confusing like that 2021-03-02T18:03:48Z pyc: what do you normally do for unicode support? do you code for a specific CL implementation? or is there a portability layer available for it too? 2021-03-02T18:04:41Z Bike: http://edicl.github.io/cl-unicode/ 2021-03-02T18:04:53Z andrea_ joined #lisp 2021-03-02T18:05:30Z kevingal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-02T18:05:40Z andrea_ left #lisp 2021-03-02T18:07:04Z phantomics: I looked at cl-unicode but it doesn't seem to have a function that gets the code point for a given character 2021-03-02T18:08:03Z phantomics: The lowercase-mapping and uppercase-mapping functions can get a char's code point, but letters have their case changed; there's no function I can see that just gets the code point 2021-03-02T18:14:09Z Bike: the docs here imply that it assumes char-code is the code point 2021-03-02T18:15:36Z gioyik joined #lisp 2021-03-02T18:15:52Z phantomics: Ok, they must be trusting current implementations to do that 2021-03-02T18:18:25Z aeth: other interpretations of what char-code and characters are in an implementation with Unicode wouldn't really be standards-compliant afaik. 2021-03-02T18:18:40Z aeth: I guess unless they wanted to randomly shuffle which char-code corresponds to which thing in unicode for no reason 2021-03-02T18:19:41Z aeth: So I think the main risk with char-code/code-char is that the implementation is using something other than Unicode. 2021-03-02T18:19:53Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-02T18:20:42Z phantomics: My concern is for April, which you need Unicode to use in the first place 2021-03-02T18:22:04Z aeth: I think the main issue is that sb-unicode has a bunch of useful things that no portable library has. cl-unicode gets you only some of it, with a much worse API (and probably much slower performance on SBCL, too) 2021-03-02T18:25:37Z aeth: So my Scheme will only handle Unicode 100% correctly on SBCL until someone resolves this issue. I set out to make a Scheme, not a huge Unicode library. 2021-03-02T18:28:06Z gioyik_ joined #lisp 2021-03-02T18:28:58Z phantomics: That's annoying 2021-03-02T18:29:21Z aeth: That is, I use babel (for UTF8<->strings) and cl-unicode outside of SBCL, and I use SBCL's libraries for SBCL. Some things only work fully conforming on SBCL if cl-unicode doesn't have a clear alternative to a thing in sb-unicode. And technically you can always use babel for the part that babel does, but that'll just hurt you on benchmarks since SBCL's internal octet conversion is faster. 2021-03-02T18:29:38Z gioyik quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-02T18:29:57Z aeth: It's annoying, but it's only temporary. It will be resolved by someone later on. We had to work around floating point for a long time before float-features was released. 2021-03-02T18:30:38Z aeth: (Now there's a bunch of libraries that are still only efficient with floating point in SBCL when they should be moving to float-features:with-float-traps-masked instead.) 2021-03-02T18:32:14Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-03-02T18:33:23Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2021-03-02T18:36:39Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-02T18:40:15Z actuallybatman joined #lisp 2021-03-02T18:40:28Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-02T18:43:49Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-02T18:44:56Z louis771 quit (Quit: My M1 has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-02T18:45:02Z judson_ joined #lisp 2021-03-02T18:46:20Z _jrjsmrtn joined #lisp 2021-03-02T18:46:55Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-02T18:55:38Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-03-02T19:00:36Z actuallybatman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-02T19:05:57Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-02T19:07:14Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-03-02T19:15:55Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-03-02T19:20:21Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-02T19:22:54Z sauvin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-02T19:28:23Z long4mud joined #lisp 2021-03-02T19:28:30Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-03-02T19:41:40Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-02T19:41:46Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-02T19:42:05Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-02T19:42:19Z judson_ joined #lisp 2021-03-02T19:44:24Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-03-02T19:51:26Z iskander quit (Quit: bye) 2021-03-02T19:52:13Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-02T19:56:43Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-03-02T20:01:21Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-02T20:08:13Z warweasle quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 26.1) 2021-03-02T20:10:41Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-02T20:13:48Z landakram joined #lisp 2021-03-02T20:16:44Z dtman34 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-02T20:17:58Z dtman34 joined #lisp 2021-03-02T20:19:30Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-02T20:21:15Z sxmx quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-02T20:23:59Z judson_ joined #lisp 2021-03-02T20:25:03Z rozenglass joined #lisp 2021-03-02T20:25:09Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-02T20:25:45Z hiroaki_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-02T20:26:19Z supercoven joined #lisp 2021-03-02T20:26:50Z rozenglass quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-02T20:29:13Z supercoven_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-02T20:30:59Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-02T20:31:27Z karlosz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-02T20:31:43Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-02T20:33:46Z kevingal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-02T20:35:30Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-03-02T20:37:22Z hiroaki_ joined #lisp 2021-03-02T20:38:48Z sxmx joined #lisp 2021-03-02T20:39:18Z rozenglass joined #lisp 2021-03-02T20:40:27Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-02T20:45:22Z paulj joined #lisp 2021-03-02T20:49:39Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-02T20:51:59Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-02T20:52:17Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-02T20:54:19Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-02T20:55:53Z hiroaki_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-02T20:57:04Z rozenglass quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-02T20:59:31Z Ardent joined #lisp 2021-03-02T21:00:13Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-02T21:00:31Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-02T21:00:35Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-02T21:01:00Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-02T21:02:40Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-03-02T21:04:54Z interruptinuse quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-02T21:04:55Z shoshin5 joined #lisp 2021-03-02T21:05:28Z AdmiralBumbleBee quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-02T21:05:46Z daniel1302_ joined #lisp 2021-03-02T21:05:48Z interruptinuse joined #lisp 2021-03-02T21:06:18Z nitrix_ joined #lisp 2021-03-02T21:06:36Z nitrix quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-02T21:06:36Z emma quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-02T21:06:37Z _death quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-02T21:06:59Z save-lisp-or-die quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-02T21:07:10Z shoshin quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-02T21:07:10Z daniel1302 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-02T21:07:11Z shoshin5 is now known as shoshin 2021-03-02T21:07:46Z AdmiralBumbleBee joined #lisp 2021-03-02T21:07:51Z emma joined #lisp 2021-03-02T21:07:51Z emma quit (Changing host) 2021-03-02T21:07:51Z emma joined #lisp 2021-03-02T21:07:54Z adeht joined #lisp 2021-03-02T21:09:35Z hiroaki_ joined #lisp 2021-03-02T21:14:13Z mmmattyx joined #lisp 2021-03-02T21:16:06Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-03-02T21:18:01Z louis771 quit (Quit: My M1 has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-02T21:19:29Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-03-02T21:25:53Z louis771 quit (Quit: My M1 has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-02T21:27:08Z supercoven quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-02T21:28:19Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-02T21:29:29Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-03-02T21:30:07Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-03-02T21:31:40Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-03-02T21:31:43Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-02T21:34:10Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-03-02T21:37:52Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-03-02T21:40:26Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2021-03-02T21:41:45Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-02T21:52:43Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-03-02T22:07:31Z hineios quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-03-02T22:11:50Z hineios joined #lisp 2021-03-02T22:12:00Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-02T22:13:44Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-03-02T22:16:31Z hineios quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-02T22:17:25Z hineios joined #lisp 2021-03-02T22:17:45Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-03-02T22:18:19Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-02T22:19:43Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-03-02T22:25:31Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-02T22:25:53Z wanko quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-02T22:27:24Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-03-02T22:28:03Z wanko joined #lisp 2021-03-02T22:29:49Z judson_ joined #lisp 2021-03-02T22:34:44Z kpoeck joined #lisp 2021-03-02T22:35:13Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-02T22:36:51Z hiroaki_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-02T22:37:00Z Xach thinks some more 2021-03-02T22:40:33Z waleee-cl joined #lisp 2021-03-02T22:45:02Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-02T22:45:44Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-03-02T22:45:53Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-02T22:48:21Z hiroaki_ joined #lisp 2021-03-02T22:53:54Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-02T22:56:15Z jasom: aeth: I had a portable version of sb-unicode at one point 2021-03-02T22:56:40Z jasom: aeth: but I do think it required that the char-code be the code-point 2021-03-02T22:56:48Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-02T22:57:13Z notzmv is now known as Guest73794 2021-03-02T22:57:48Z actuallybatman joined #lisp 2021-03-02T22:58:17Z Bike: you have to make _some_ assumption, don't you? that char codes match, or char names match, or something 2021-03-02T23:00:38Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-03-02T23:02:12Z Guest73794 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-02T23:05:43Z jasom: well I just tried it on ccl and it confusable-p worked, so it hasn't completely bit-rotted 2021-03-02T23:05:50Z jasom: probably needs updated input files 2021-03-02T23:08:06Z Bike: my utf8string thing assumed char-codes matched, i think... 2021-03-02T23:08:17Z Bike: yeah. 2021-03-02T23:08:31Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-02T23:09:06Z zmv- joined #lisp 2021-03-02T23:09:21Z jasom: It did not work on abcl: (psb-unicode:confusable-p "pa" "р𝝰") ; => NIL 2021-03-02T23:09:46Z zmv- quit (Changing host) 2021-03-02T23:09:46Z zmv- joined #lisp 2021-03-02T23:10:25Z jasom: (char "р𝝰" 1) ;=> #\? 2021-03-02T23:11:05Z hineios quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-03-02T23:11:10Z jasom: so that just looks like not accepting utf-8 from repl 2021-03-02T23:11:14Z Bike: oh no 2021-03-02T23:11:35Z hineios joined #lisp 2021-03-02T23:12:23Z jasom: but if I stuff an actual greek alpha in there it returns true 2021-03-02T23:13:37Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-02T23:13:53Z zmv- is now known as notzmv 2021-03-02T23:13:53Z jasom: "р𝝰" ;=> "р?���" 2021-03-02T23:14:17Z pve quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-02T23:15:39Z cognemo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-02T23:16:57Z cognemo joined #lisp 2021-03-02T23:17:38Z jasom: (psb-unicode:confusable-p "p" (babel:octets-to-string (make-array 2 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8) :initial-contents #(#xcf #x81)))) ; => T 2021-03-02T23:18:49Z aindilis joined #lisp 2021-03-02T23:20:21Z jasom: oh, clisp found some non-portable LOOP forms 2021-03-02T23:22:02Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-03-02T23:22:04Z frgo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-02T23:22:11Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-02T23:22:13Z jasom: but that simple smoketest passed on ccl, clisp, and abcl 2021-03-02T23:22:28Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-02T23:23:54Z mmmattyx quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-02T23:27:44Z ewd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-02T23:34:44Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-02T23:35:14Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-03-02T23:35:31Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-02T23:36:09Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-02T23:39:13Z iamFIREcracker joined #lisp 2021-03-02T23:40:09Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-02T23:40:22Z kpoeck quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-02T23:41:09Z iamFIREc1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-02T23:41:52Z akoana joined #lisp 2021-03-02T23:42:33Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-02T23:47:19Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-02T23:48:36Z elflng quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-02T23:48:58Z elflng joined #lisp 2021-03-02T23:49:40Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 28.0.50)) 2021-03-02T23:50:55Z actuallybatman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-02T23:59:36Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-03T00:04:00Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2021-03-03T00:05:56Z louis771 quit (Quit: My M1 has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-03T00:07:19Z nicktick joined #lisp 2021-03-03T00:10:10Z judson_ quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2021-03-03T00:15:15Z karlosz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-03T00:19:26Z ey[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-03T00:19:32Z ms[m] quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-03T00:20:27Z kreyren quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-03T00:20:43Z posthuman_egrego quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-03T00:21:59Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-03T00:22:17Z ey[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-03T00:22:44Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-03T00:25:25Z kreyren joined #lisp 2021-03-03T00:25:47Z posthuman_egrego joined #lisp 2021-03-03T00:27:56Z ms[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-03T00:33:14Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-03-03T00:39:25Z iamFIREc1 joined #lisp 2021-03-03T00:40:39Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-03T00:41:57Z iamFIREcracker quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-03T00:44:55Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2021-03-03T00:45:36Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-03T00:45:36Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2021-03-03T00:54:30Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-03T00:54:39Z akoana quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-03T00:56:08Z akoana joined #lisp 2021-03-03T01:05:30Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-03T01:06:37Z anticrisis_ joined #lisp 2021-03-03T01:09:38Z anticrisis quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-03T01:11:01Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-03T01:13:24Z sm2n quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-03T01:13:42Z sm2n joined #lisp 2021-03-03T01:14:18Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-03-03T01:15:23Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-03-03T01:17:38Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-03T01:17:49Z wxie joined #lisp 2021-03-03T01:21:32Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-03-03T01:22:55Z actuallybatman joined #lisp 2021-03-03T01:26:56Z nitrix_ is now known as nitrix 2021-03-03T01:27:14Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1) 2021-03-03T01:27:33Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-03-03T01:29:02Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-03T01:29:03Z akoana quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-03T01:29:18Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2021-03-03T01:31:09Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-03T01:35:45Z niac joined #lisp 2021-03-03T01:36:15Z djuber joined #lisp 2021-03-03T01:36:56Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-03T01:38:59Z actuallybatman quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-03T01:44:43Z pfdietz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-03T01:44:56Z sm2n quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-03T01:47:08Z Sheilong quit 2021-03-03T02:06:43Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-03-03T02:06:44Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-03T02:07:24Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-03T02:07:27Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-03T02:08:51Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-03T02:12:02Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-03T02:15:30Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-03T02:18:04Z landakram quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-03T02:24:51Z semz joined #lisp 2021-03-03T02:25:41Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2021-03-03T02:28:24Z sz0_ joined #lisp 2021-03-03T02:29:58Z ey[m] quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-03T02:29:58Z MrtnDk[m] quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-03T02:29:59Z sz0 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-03T02:29:59Z banjiewen__ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-03T02:29:59Z larme quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-03T02:30:02Z sz0_ is now known as sz0 2021-03-03T02:32:13Z djuber left #lisp 2021-03-03T02:33:18Z ey[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-03T02:33:18Z MrtnDk[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-03T02:33:18Z banjiewen__ joined #lisp 2021-03-03T02:33:18Z larme joined #lisp 2021-03-03T02:34:08Z eMBee quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-03T02:34:16Z minion quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-03T02:34:23Z Grauwolf quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-03T02:34:28Z madnificent quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-03T02:34:39Z specbot quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-03T02:35:56Z renzhi quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-03T02:37:25Z zmv joined #lisp 2021-03-03T02:37:47Z zmv is now known as Guest2945 2021-03-03T02:40:45Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2021-03-03T02:41:58Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-03-03T02:42:23Z dbotton quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-03T02:42:55Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-03T02:42:55Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2021-03-03T02:43:51Z eMBee joined #lisp 2021-03-03T02:44:37Z Guest2945 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-03T02:44:43Z madnificent joined #lisp 2021-03-03T02:44:54Z sm2n joined #lisp 2021-03-03T02:46:07Z Grauwolf joined #lisp 2021-03-03T02:47:29Z sm2n quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-03T02:47:43Z sm2n joined #lisp 2021-03-03T02:48:13Z renzhi joined #lisp 2021-03-03T02:49:02Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-03T02:49:28Z sm2n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-03T02:51:03Z sm2n joined #lisp 2021-03-03T02:54:26Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-03-03T02:56:03Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-03T02:57:18Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-03T03:00:49Z tinhatcat quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-03T03:01:59Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2021-03-03T03:17:03Z asarch joined #lisp 2021-03-03T03:17:15Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-03T03:17:46Z minion joined #lisp 2021-03-03T03:18:24Z specbot joined #lisp 2021-03-03T03:18:35Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-03T03:19:16Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-03T03:19:39Z susam: Good morning everyone! 2021-03-03T03:21:06Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-03T03:25:40Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-03-03T03:29:14Z sm2n quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-03T03:31:35Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-03T03:39:47Z sm2n joined #lisp 2021-03-03T03:40:56Z iamFIREc1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-03T03:41:20Z iamFIREc1 joined #lisp 2021-03-03T03:42:38Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-03T03:49:35Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-03T03:51:51Z sm2n quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-03T03:52:59Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-03-03T03:53:16Z wanko quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-03T03:55:04Z sm2n joined #lisp 2021-03-03T03:55:30Z wanko joined #lisp 2021-03-03T04:00:20Z actuallybatman joined #lisp 2021-03-03T04:01:27Z madage quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-03T04:01:39Z Alfr quit (Killed (wolfe.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))) 2021-03-03T04:01:43Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-03-03T04:02:10Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-03T04:04:06Z keja_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-03T04:06:25Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-03T04:06:26Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-03T04:07:04Z actuallybatman quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-03T04:08:23Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-03T04:09:19Z madage joined #lisp 2021-03-03T04:09:28Z v3ga quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-03T04:10:19Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-03-03T04:10:29Z user100101 joined #lisp 2021-03-03T04:10:32Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-03T04:11:15Z ik` joined #lisp 2021-03-03T04:11:24Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2021-03-03T04:11:30Z user100101 quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-03T04:13:36Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2021-03-03T04:14:14Z mfiano: Hello. I would like some help constructing a particular type specifier 2021-03-03T04:15:13Z cchristiansen joined #lisp 2021-03-03T04:16:08Z keja_ joined #lisp 2021-03-03T04:16:15Z mfiano: I'm wondering if such a type declaration would be possible that satisifies the constraint mentioned in the comment: https://gist.github.com/mfiano/bab595782c93421cf8a97671d1e6d30f 2021-03-03T04:17:58Z cchristiansen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-03T04:20:53Z easye joined #lisp 2021-03-03T04:22:39Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-03T04:27:29Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-03-03T04:33:00Z Bike: so ub8a is short for a simple-array of (unsigned-byte 8), and the optional parameter controls the dimension specification? 2021-03-03T04:33:51Z mfiano: Yes 2021-03-03T04:33:54Z Bike: the fact that you want to treat a bare integer as indicating a single-dimensional array, rather than as a rank, kind of complicates it. without that it would just be `(simple-array (unsigned-byte) ,length) 2021-03-03T04:34:17Z Bike: with that, i suppose ,(if (integerp length) `(,length) ,length)? 2021-03-03T04:34:40Z Bike: length should default to * which is what you want 2021-03-03T04:34:57Z Bike: so, ub8a by itself expands to (simple-array (unsigned-byte 8) *) 2021-03-03T04:35:47Z mfiano: I suppose that's good enough. Thank you 2021-03-03T04:36:17Z moon-child: perhaps `(if (integerp ,length) (list ,length) ,length) ? 2021-03-03T04:36:35Z Bike: well you don't want an if in the expansion 2021-03-03T04:36:37Z moon-child: so length can be an arbitrary expression 2021-03-03T04:36:48Z Bike: though i did screw it up, i meant ,(if (integerp length) `(,length) length) 2021-03-03T04:41:57Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-03T04:50:18Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-03T04:52:33Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-03T04:53:56Z rpg joined #lisp 2021-03-03T05:00:15Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-03-03T05:01:33Z aggin joined #lisp 2021-03-03T05:02:07Z aggin quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-03T05:04:52Z wxie joined #lisp 2021-03-03T05:06:58Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-03T05:07:01Z ik` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-03T05:32:11Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-03T05:32:30Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-03-03T05:36:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-03T05:36:59Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-03T05:38:09Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2021-03-03T05:45:09Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-03T05:50:23Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-03-03T06:01:29Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-03T06:02:39Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-03T06:03:39Z actuallybatman joined #lisp 2021-03-03T06:07:04Z pyc: What is the difference between these syntaxes: (require "asdf"), (require :asdf) and require ('asdf). The official ASDF documentation recommends the first syntax. Why? 2021-03-03T06:08:16Z actuallybatman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-03T06:12:01Z gioyik joined #lisp 2021-03-03T06:12:09Z gioyik quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-03T06:15:43Z gioyik_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-03T06:20:48Z sm2n quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-03T06:23:34Z beach: You mean (require 'asdf) for the third case, right? 2021-03-03T06:24:05Z beach: clhs require 2021-03-03T06:24:05Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_provid.htm 2021-03-03T06:24:08Z beach: clhs *modules* 2021-03-03T06:24:08Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_module.htm 2021-03-03T06:25:27Z beach: REQUIRE uses string= so it is case sensitive, which would seem like "asdf" and :asdf would not both work, since the second one is converted to "ASDF" by STRING. But if you look at *modules*, it turns out that both "asdf" and "ASDF" are present. 2021-03-03T06:26:07Z beach: So the only practical difference is whether a symbol is created or not. 2021-03-03T06:30:27Z pyc: beach: is there one syntax that is more popular than the other? 2021-03-03T06:30:30Z sm2n joined #lisp 2021-03-03T06:31:17Z beach: I don't know. What I know is that you need to learn to decipher Common Lisp HyperSpec dictionary entries, which is what I just did, since I don't know these things by heart. 2021-03-03T06:31:26Z beach: Start by looking at REQUIRE... 2021-03-03T06:31:43Z pyc: thanks beach 2021-03-03T06:31:50Z beach: It says it takes a string designator... 2021-03-03T06:32:34Z beach: Now look in the glossary for "string designator"... 2021-03-03T06:33:15Z beach: It says it can be a string, a character, or a symbol. If it is a symbol, as in the second and third cases, then the name of the symbol is used. Which is "ASDF" in both those cases. 2021-03-03T06:34:26Z beach: Now, look at REQUIRE again. It says it uses STRING= to compare the stringified argument to the contents of *MODULES*. 2021-03-03T06:34:40Z beach: So it would seem that "asdf" and "ASDF" wouldn't both work. 2021-03-03T06:34:57Z beach: But if you look at your *MODULES*, you will see that both are present. 2021-03-03T06:35:15Z beach: And this is EXACTLY what I did, because I didn't know (or remember) ANY of this stuff. 2021-03-03T06:35:24Z beach: Which means, that you could do the same yourself. 2021-03-03T06:36:08Z madand quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-03T06:36:09Z hjudt joined #lisp 2021-03-03T06:36:12Z aggin joined #lisp 2021-03-03T06:37:45Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-03T06:38:26Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-03T06:40:11Z madand joined #lisp 2021-03-03T06:40:44Z sm2n_ joined #lisp 2021-03-03T06:42:53Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-03T06:43:13Z knobo joined #lisp 2021-03-03T06:43:42Z sm2n quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-03T06:46:17Z sm2n joined #lisp 2021-03-03T06:46:56Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-03T06:47:40Z sm2n_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-03T06:49:03Z beach: pyc: You see? 2021-03-03T06:51:31Z sauvin joined #lisp 2021-03-03T06:51:39Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-03T06:52:50Z beach: pyc: If you follow the manipulations I suggested, and that I had to do myself in order to answer your question, then I think you will make it easier to find answers to your questions in the future. 2021-03-03T06:52:54Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-03T06:58:04Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-03T07:01:08Z beach: Oh, well. 2021-03-03T07:02:08Z landakram joined #lisp 2021-03-03T07:03:03Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-03T07:07:58Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-03T07:09:50Z long4mud quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-03T07:13:10Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-03T07:13:28Z aggin quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-03T07:17:18Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-03T07:20:15Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-03T07:22:32Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-03T07:22:34Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2021-03-03T07:23:16Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-03T07:23:30Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-03-03T07:27:27Z pyc: beach: thanks for the detailed explanation. I am still not familiar with all the terminology used in CLHS but I will keep digging into the docs until it all begins to make sense. 2021-03-03T07:27:49Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-03T07:28:36Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-03-03T07:32:31Z kaiwulf quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-03T07:32:40Z Cymew joined #lisp 2021-03-03T07:33:11Z kenran joined #lisp 2021-03-03T07:33:14Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-03T07:33:57Z beach: pyc: Great! 2021-03-03T07:38:26Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-03T07:40:11Z Demosthe1ex joined #lisp 2021-03-03T07:40:16Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-03T07:40:52Z pve joined #lisp 2021-03-03T07:42:41Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-03T07:43:22Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-03T07:43:45Z kam1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-03T07:43:47Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-03-03T07:43:52Z Demosthenex quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-03T07:44:07Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-03T07:44:33Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-03-03T07:47:34Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-03T07:48:35Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-03T07:49:04Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-03T07:51:51Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-03T07:53:31Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-03T07:56:12Z pyc: what does tymoon mean? I see it hosts many lisp channel logs but I can't find its meaning anywhere. 2021-03-03T07:58:45Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-03T08:00:20Z beach: You need to ask Shinmera. He came up with it. 2021-03-03T08:02:25Z surabax joined #lisp 2021-03-03T08:02:37Z admich joined #lisp 2021-03-03T08:03:40Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-03T08:06:26Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-03T08:08:23Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-03T08:13:49Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-03T08:15:59Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-03T08:18:36Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-03T08:21:05Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-03-03T08:23:38Z easye: pyc: I think "tymoon" is an Japanese Anime reference. 2021-03-03T08:23:54Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-03T08:24:04Z akkad quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-03T08:24:21Z sm2n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-03T08:24:22Z akkad joined #lisp 2021-03-03T08:24:42Z sm2n joined #lisp 2021-03-03T08:27:31Z beach: That would make sense. 2021-03-03T08:28:50Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-03-03T08:29:04Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-03T08:29:46Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-03T08:33:18Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-03T08:41:23Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-03T08:44:44Z khisanth_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-03T08:44:55Z matryoshka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-03T08:45:01Z ggoes quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-03T08:45:07Z ldbeth: wut, type moon reference 2021-03-03T08:45:29Z hiroaki_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-03T08:46:09Z khisanth_ joined #lisp 2021-03-03T08:46:24Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-03T08:47:08Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-03T08:48:16Z ggoes joined #lisp 2021-03-03T08:48:19Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2021-03-03T08:50:04Z matryoshka joined #lisp 2021-03-03T08:52:20Z anticrisis_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-03T08:54:16Z vutral_ joined #lisp 2021-03-03T08:54:56Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-03T08:54:59Z t3hyoshi_ is now known as t3hyoshi 2021-03-03T08:56:36Z heisig joined #lisp 2021-03-03T08:57:24Z hiroaki_ joined #lisp 2021-03-03T08:58:06Z pankajsg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-03T09:00:05Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-03T09:06:28Z ldbeth` joined #lisp 2021-03-03T09:07:36Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-03-03T09:07:58Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-03T09:10:50Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-03T09:14:34Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-03T09:21:44Z retropikzel quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-03T09:24:05Z aartaka_d quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-03T09:24:11Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-03T09:25:08Z sm2n quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-03T09:27:24Z scymtym_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-03T09:27:49Z scymtym joined #lisp 2021-03-03T09:29:42Z pyc: I am on macOS. SBCL is consuming 500% CPU and I hear greatly increased fan noise. I am not running any code on it. How can I troubleshoot what SBCL is doing? 2021-03-03T09:30:46Z sm2n joined #lisp 2021-03-03T09:36:44Z sm2n quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-03T09:37:24Z sm2n joined #lisp 2021-03-03T09:42:31Z retropikzel joined #lisp 2021-03-03T09:42:47Z sm2n_ joined #lisp 2021-03-03T09:42:47Z sm2n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-03T09:43:08Z pyc: problem solved. I had run an infinite recursion by mistake. Restarted the REPL. 2021-03-03T09:44:11Z t3hyoshi quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-03T09:46:23Z sm2n joined #lisp 2021-03-03T09:48:12Z sm2n_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-03T09:48:35Z admich quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-03T09:49:54Z admich joined #lisp 2021-03-03T09:52:11Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-03-03T09:52:12Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2021-03-03T09:52:12Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-03-03T09:53:49Z admich quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-03T09:54:14Z admich joined #lisp 2021-03-03T09:58:19Z sm2n quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-03T10:01:45Z ldbeth`` joined #lisp 2021-03-03T10:03:05Z nicktick joined #lisp 2021-03-03T10:03:35Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-03-03T10:03:37Z ldbeth` quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-03T10:05:44Z rwcom60280385034 quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2021-03-03T10:06:10Z rwcom60280385034 joined #lisp 2021-03-03T10:07:31Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-03T10:08:04Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-03T10:09:19Z ewd joined #lisp 2021-03-03T10:10:06Z mathrick joined #lisp 2021-03-03T10:11:21Z admich` joined #lisp 2021-03-03T10:12:56Z admich quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-03T10:13:56Z ldbeth`` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-03T10:15:51Z sz0 joined #lisp 2021-03-03T10:24:05Z admich`` joined #lisp 2021-03-03T10:26:10Z admich` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-03T10:26:12Z paulj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-03T10:28:30Z frgo quit 2021-03-03T10:29:07Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-03T10:35:04Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-03T10:40:30Z fiddlerwoaroof is now known as edwlan 2021-03-03T10:44:02Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-03T10:44:52Z retropikzel quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-03T10:46:45Z ldbeth`` joined #lisp 2021-03-03T10:47:54Z edwlan is now known as fiddlerwoaroof 2021-03-03T10:49:20Z fiddlerwoaroof is now known as edwlan 2021-03-03T10:49:33Z edwlan is now known as fiddlerwoaroof 2021-03-03T10:51:11Z admich``` joined #lisp 2021-03-03T10:51:59Z ldbeth`` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-03T10:53:21Z admich`` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-03T11:00:06Z vegansbane6963 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-03-03T11:00:36Z ldbeth`` joined #lisp 2021-03-03T11:09:06Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-03T11:10:24Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-03T11:10:28Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-03T11:11:10Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-03T11:11:46Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-03T11:12:04Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-03T11:12:19Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-03T11:13:10Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-03T11:14:12Z shka_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-03T11:16:48Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-03T11:16:53Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-03T11:20:44Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-03T11:21:00Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-03T11:21:15Z adeht is now known as _death 2021-03-03T11:22:03Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-03T11:22:13Z Xach: pyc: one option is to interrupt threads and induce them to print a backtrace. 2021-03-03T11:22:27Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-03T11:23:20Z ldbeth`` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-03-03T11:29:48Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-03-03T11:30:39Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-03T11:30:50Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-03T11:32:30Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-03-03T11:33:13Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-03T11:33:33Z admich``` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-03T11:34:14Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-03T11:34:34Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-03T11:34:41Z phoe: well, infinite loops are a good way to consume all CPU and make the fans spin 2021-03-03T11:34:48Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-03T11:39:30Z flip214: phoe: My CL dialect runs an infinite loop in 3.5 secs! 2021-03-03T11:41:33Z phoe: :O 2021-03-03T11:41:56Z vutral_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-03T11:44:56Z tessier quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-03T11:47:24Z _death: winter.sh: nice -n 19 infloop 2021-03-03T11:49:23Z orivej_ joined #lisp 2021-03-03T11:50:03Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-03T11:57:27Z flip214: _death: rather "ulimit -t 3" and then "./infloop" 2021-03-03T11:59:09Z _death: well that won't keep you warm 2021-03-03T12:02:09Z xvzf joined #lisp 2021-03-03T12:02:52Z scymtym joined #lisp 2021-03-03T12:06:22Z kreyren quit (Changing host) 2021-03-03T12:06:22Z kreyren joined #lisp 2021-03-03T12:06:22Z kreyren quit (Changing host) 2021-03-03T12:06:22Z kreyren joined #lisp 2021-03-03T12:11:04Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-03-03T12:14:28Z kevingal_ joined #lisp 2021-03-03T12:16:45Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-03T12:21:05Z orivej_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-03T12:21:30Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-03T12:21:48Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-03T12:24:41Z xvzf quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-03T12:26:43Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-03T12:28:39Z flip214: _death: well, I've got a shell loop that restarts that all the time 2021-03-03T12:33:03Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-03T12:34:12Z Stanley00 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-03T12:34:51Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2021-03-03T12:36:03Z _death: does it utilize sensors -j ? 2021-03-03T12:37:08Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-03T12:39:20Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-03T12:46:21Z massma joined #lisp 2021-03-03T12:48:04Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-03T12:54:33Z niac quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-03T13:09:04Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-03T13:15:33Z tinhatcat joined #lisp 2021-03-03T13:15:55Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-03T13:16:50Z matryoshka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-03T13:22:24Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-03T13:22:27Z orivej_ joined #lisp 2021-03-03T13:22:55Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-03T13:24:18Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-03T13:24:27Z lukego: Hey the other day I was wondering if there was an UPDATEF macro for updating a place with an arbitrary function and it turns out that there is one, in Serapeum, called OPF. 2021-03-03T13:24:42Z perrier-jouet quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-03T13:24:57Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2021-03-03T13:25:53Z perrier-jouet joined #lisp 2021-03-03T13:26:04Z lukego: (Or maybe CALLF which it's built upon.) 2021-03-03T13:26:13Z tinhatcat quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-03T13:27:24Z _death: like On Lisp's _f? 2021-03-03T13:28:18Z lukego: Maybe. Example: (let ((x 1)) (opf x (max _ 3)) x) => 3 2021-03-03T13:28:48Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-03T13:29:10Z _death: I see.. I'd prefer a modify macro like maxf 2021-03-03T13:29:13Z lukego: I never really connected with On Lisp. Maybe it's time for me to give it another go. 2021-03-03T13:29:33Z lukego: Indeed. I don't recall what the example was that I had last week but the specific macro didn't exist 2021-03-03T13:29:54Z _death: we have define-modify-macro for that ;) 2021-03-03T13:30:02Z lukego: and it feels a bit wonky having incf, maxf, appendf, nconcf, ..., but always more missing than defined 2021-03-03T13:30:11Z lukego: okay I'm showing my ignorance :) 2021-03-03T13:30:39Z Sheilong joined #lisp 2021-03-03T13:31:06Z lukego: I've never actually dabbled in extending SETF and I usually associate that with defining places rather than updating methods. I should look properly into that too :) 2021-03-03T13:31:14Z _death: well, they may be missing, but once added the forms that use them are clear and simple.. (maxf x 3) instead of (_f max x 3) or whatever 2021-03-03T13:31:25Z orivej_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-03T13:31:27Z lukego: indeed. 2021-03-03T13:31:48Z edgar-rft: let's UPDATEF Common Lisp by replacing everything with arbitrary random functions 2021-03-03T13:32:06Z lukego: I should do some remedial Lisp reading. 2021-03-03T13:32:11Z jackdaniel: half of them with #'arbitrary and the other half with #'random ? 2021-03-03T13:33:00Z edgar-rft: that's too predictable 2021-03-03T13:34:50Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2021-03-03T13:38:07Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-03-03T13:39:09Z jackdaniel: (if (zerop (random 2)) #'random #'arbitrary) ; solved 2021-03-03T13:48:37Z nicktick joined #lisp 2021-03-03T13:51:43Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-03T13:53:23Z hjudt quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-03T14:05:15Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-03-03T14:13:38Z caret joined #lisp 2021-03-03T14:14:13Z rpg joined #lisp 2021-03-03T14:15:57Z warweasle joined #lisp 2021-03-03T14:17:00Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-03T14:18:54Z drl joined #lisp 2021-03-03T14:19:36Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-03T14:24:35Z jprajzne quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-03-03T14:24:48Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2021-03-03T14:27:27Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-03T14:28:44Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-03T14:34:29Z matryoshka joined #lisp 2021-03-03T14:35:24Z kaiwulf joined #lisp 2021-03-03T14:36:51Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-03-03T14:38:46Z sm2n joined #lisp 2021-03-03T14:41:35Z jprajzne quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-03T14:41:44Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2021-03-03T14:42:16Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-03-03T14:42:17Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-03T14:44:56Z jonatack_ quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-03T14:46:00Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-03T14:52:06Z dyelar joined #lisp 2021-03-03T14:52:32Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-03T14:53:34Z Mizzu joined #lisp 2021-03-03T14:54:20Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-03T14:54:35Z matryoshka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-03T14:59:00Z lukego: aside - I really appreciate Serapeum. I like all these funky convenience macros but not if they make my code completely "lukego idiosyncratic." I can more easily accept being "serapeum idiomatic." Maybe there has always been subcommunities like this e.g. people who read On Lisp and adopted its various macros and can easily read each others' code. 2021-03-03T14:59:15Z lukego: (Or maybe I'm the only one using serapeum? I'm hooked) 2021-03-03T15:02:44Z Mizzu quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-03T15:06:05Z splittist: lukego: I use it, too. Although I also use alexandria (as alexandria) and split-sequence (as split-sequence). Which may be missing some of the point. 2021-03-03T15:10:09Z matryoshka joined #lisp 2021-03-03T15:21:51Z sjl joined #lisp 2021-03-03T15:22:48Z perrier-jouet quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-03T15:31:45Z perrier-jouet joined #lisp 2021-03-03T15:32:53Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2021-03-03T15:32:56Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-03T15:34:40Z dyelar left #lisp 2021-03-03T15:37:45Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-03T15:38:38Z aggin joined #lisp 2021-03-03T15:51:27Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-03T15:55:35Z loli quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-03T15:55:57Z loli joined #lisp 2021-03-03T15:56:34Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-03T15:58:48Z kenran quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-03T16:00:46Z warweasle joined #lisp 2021-03-03T16:10:06Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3)) 2021-03-03T16:18:06Z aggin quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-03T16:21:42Z gioyik joined #lisp 2021-03-03T16:22:09Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-03T16:25:09Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-03T16:25:21Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2021-03-03T16:26:14Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2021-03-03T16:26:40Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2021-03-03T16:28:17Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-03T16:30:20Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-03T16:30:54Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-03T16:30:56Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-03T16:31:52Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-03T16:31:58Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-03-03T16:32:44Z phoe6 joined #lisp 2021-03-03T16:33:42Z phoe6 left #lisp 2021-03-03T16:37:19Z hiroaki_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-03T16:38:42Z jonatack_ quit (Quit: jonatack_) 2021-03-03T16:43:59Z kaiwulf quit (Quit: KVIrc 5.0.0 Aria http://www.kvirc.net/) 2021-03-03T16:44:42Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-03T16:46:37Z surabax quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-03T16:46:51Z surabax joined #lisp 2021-03-03T16:48:47Z dvdmuckle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-03T16:49:22Z hiroaki_ joined #lisp 2021-03-03T16:50:09Z dvdmuckle joined #lisp 2021-03-03T16:50:40Z engblom quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-03T16:50:40Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-03T16:51:00Z engblom joined #lisp 2021-03-03T16:53:57Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-03T16:56:22Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-03T16:56:50Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-03-03T17:01:04Z jprajzne quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-03T17:01:04Z perrier-jouet quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-03T17:01:04Z rpg quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-03T17:01:04Z aartaka quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-03T17:01:04Z shka_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-03T17:01:04Z khisanth_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-03T17:01:04Z landakram quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-03T17:01:04Z specbot quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-03T17:01:04Z madnificent quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-03T17:01:04Z eMBee quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-03T17:01:04Z zaquest quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-03T17:01:05Z slyrus_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-03T17:01:05Z grumble quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-03T17:01:05Z egp_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-03T17:01:05Z epony quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-03T17:01:05Z mister_m quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-03T17:01:05Z Jesin quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-03T17:01:05Z paul0 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-03T17:01:05Z totoro2021 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-03T17:01:05Z gabot quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-03T17:01:05Z kingcons quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-03T17:01:05Z nightfly quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-03T17:01:44Z KYCb joined #lisp 2021-03-03T17:02:33Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp 2021-03-03T17:03:33Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-03T17:03:59Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-03T17:04:15Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-03T17:04:34Z KYCb quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-03T17:05:07Z paul0 joined #lisp 2021-03-03T17:05:29Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2021-03-03T17:06:43Z lxleuser_ joined #lisp 2021-03-03T17:06:56Z lxleuser_: Hi 2021-03-03T17:07:03Z Josh_2: Hi 2021-03-03T17:07:03Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2021-03-03T17:07:03Z perrier-jouet joined #lisp 2021-03-03T17:07:03Z rpg joined #lisp 2021-03-03T17:07:03Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-03T17:07:03Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-03-03T17:07:03Z khisanth_ joined #lisp 2021-03-03T17:07:03Z landakram joined #lisp 2021-03-03T17:07:03Z specbot joined #lisp 2021-03-03T17:07:03Z madnificent joined #lisp 2021-03-03T17:07:03Z eMBee joined #lisp 2021-03-03T17:07:03Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-03-03T17:07:03Z grumble joined #lisp 2021-03-03T17:07:03Z egp_ joined #lisp 2021-03-03T17:07:03Z mister_m joined #lisp 2021-03-03T17:07:03Z Jesin joined #lisp 2021-03-03T17:07:03Z totoro2021 joined #lisp 2021-03-03T17:07:03Z gabot joined #lisp 2021-03-03T17:07:03Z kingcons joined #lisp 2021-03-03T17:07:03Z nightfly joined #lisp 2021-03-03T17:07:24Z Xach: lukego: the more lispers i meet the more i realize how many subcommunities there are 2021-03-03T17:07:34Z lxleuser_ is now known as KYCb 2021-03-03T17:07:53Z Xach: lukego: and the "use IRC and SBCL" crowd is just one of them 2021-03-03T17:08:06Z Josh_2: best one tho 2021-03-03T17:08:28Z Xach: maybe! but a big mistake to think it's the only one 2021-03-03T17:08:48Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-03T17:14:22Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-03T17:14:49Z KYCb: Sorry, who can help me with quick lisp, how to install packages, how to import package in my own project and use functions from it? 2021-03-03T17:15:44Z Josh_2: you install it, then you run (ql:quickload ) 2021-03-03T17:16:26Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2021-03-03T17:17:22Z beach: Xach: Yes, it's easy to think that every Lisper knows what is going on if it is announced here. I have made that incorrect assumption several times. 2021-03-03T17:18:48Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-03T17:20:47Z waleee-cl joined #lisp 2021-03-03T17:21:18Z jasom: KYCb: how familiar are you with ASDF? 2021-03-03T17:29:11Z aeth: Every Lisper is their own subcommunity. 2021-03-03T17:29:26Z Xach: aeth: i'm of two minds about that 2021-03-03T17:29:29Z retropikzel joined #lisp 2021-03-03T17:29:48Z aeth: You're two subcommunities? 2021-03-03T17:31:23Z KYCb: jasom: almost nothing 2021-03-03T17:31:31Z Xach: aeth: yes :~( 2021-03-03T17:31:38Z aeth: So am I. 2021-03-03T17:37:19Z sm2n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-03T17:37:38Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-03-03T17:39:33Z sm2n joined #lisp 2021-03-03T17:45:14Z scymtym joined #lisp 2021-03-03T17:45:16Z jasom: KYCb: so for just "I want to play around with this in the REPL" Josh_2's advice of: (ql:quickload "some-project") is sufficient. If you want to use projects from quicklisp in your own projects, then you should learn ASDF at some point. It lets you define your own systems, and tell it which other systems are dependencies. Quicklisp is "just" a way to automatically donwload any missing dependencies 2021-03-03T17:45:17Z jasom: for you. 2021-03-03T17:45:29Z jmercouris: how to check if a particular object is of a class? 2021-03-03T17:45:38Z jmercouris: It's on the tip of my tongue... 2021-03-03T17:45:54Z jmercouris: I could do class-of 2021-03-03T17:46:02Z jasom: jmercouris: the class specifically, or the class and any subtype, or the class and any supertype? 2021-03-03T17:46:17Z jmercouris: jasom: if it is anywhere in the inhertiance tree 2021-03-03T17:46:26Z jmercouris: s/inhertiance/inheritance 2021-03-03T17:46:35Z jmercouris: maybe I will have to use mopu for that 2021-03-03T17:47:06Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-03T17:47:09Z jasom: jmercouris: typep should do what you want? 2021-03-03T17:47:10Z beach: clhs typep 2021-03-03T17:47:10Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_typep.htm 2021-03-03T17:47:15Z jmercouris: RIGHT 2021-03-03T17:47:15Z jmercouris: YES 2021-03-03T17:47:33Z jmercouris: thank you 2021-03-03T17:50:40Z jasom: KYCb: the very shortest introduction to ASDF that I know of is https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/systems.html#asdf it includes links to the ASDF manual for reference, but I don't know of a middle ground between "Here's the basics" and "Here's all the documentation" perhaps someone else in this channel can recommend something. 2021-03-03T17:51:08Z jmercouris: I +1 the cookbook 2021-03-03T17:51:18Z nullx002 joined #lisp 2021-03-03T17:51:23Z jmercouris: honestly, it is all you need 2021-03-03T17:51:27Z jmercouris: the rest you can figure out in due time 2021-03-03T17:51:29Z jasom: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/asdf/asdf/blob/master/doc/best_practices.md which is linked from the cookbook has a lot of examples too 2021-03-03T17:52:11Z jasom: I learned the basics of ASDF almost 20 years ago, so I lack insight anymore into how to go about learning it 2021-03-03T17:52:39Z jmercouris: well, I am teaching someone now 2021-03-03T17:52:44Z Xach: The basics can get you quite far. 2021-03-03T17:52:47Z jmercouris: and most of the question is "what is asdf" 2021-03-03T17:52:53Z jmercouris: that's really hard to grasp in of itself 2021-03-03T17:53:07Z jmercouris: I know it is in the name, but it really doesn't mean anything to someone who doesn't know Lisp 2021-03-03T17:53:25Z Ardent quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-03T17:53:40Z jasom: I could not define for you what a system is other than "A bunch of probably related files" 2021-03-03T17:54:44Z jasom: but the system definition defines what you can do with those files. 2021-03-03T17:55:09Z jasom: and 99% of the time it's "A bunch of lisp files that should all be loaded together as a unit, possibly in a specific order" 2021-03-03T17:56:20Z Xach: if you cannot afford an order, one will be appointed for you 2021-03-03T17:56:27Z jasom: :D 2021-03-03T17:56:59Z jasom kind of wishes poiu had caught on more so that there was a good reason to not just use :serial t 2021-03-03T17:57:21Z jasom: but relying on fork() made it DOA for portability 2021-03-03T17:58:05Z gioyik quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-03T18:01:22Z Bike: well, you couldn't do it with threads 2021-03-03T18:02:31Z jasom: Bike: you *could* run-program it with a memory image 2021-03-03T18:04:22Z Bike: repeated save-lisp-and-die and startups seems like it might reduce any efficiency gain a fair bit 2021-03-03T18:08:14Z egp__ joined #lisp 2021-03-03T18:08:51Z egp_ quit (Quit: EXIT) 2021-03-03T18:10:15Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-03T18:10:43Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-03T18:12:07Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-03T18:12:48Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-03-03T18:13:29Z gioyik joined #lisp 2021-03-03T18:16:51Z gxt joined #lisp 2021-03-03T18:17:53Z nullx002 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-03T18:18:10Z kenran joined #lisp 2021-03-03T18:20:38Z gxt quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-03T18:26:14Z retropikzel quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-03T18:29:18Z Bourne joined #lisp 2021-03-03T18:30:37Z kenran quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-03T18:31:53Z rpg: jasom: Also kind of fatal for at-the-repl incremental development 2021-03-03T18:32:47Z rpg: jmercouris: A *very* important counter-intuitive thing about ASDF is that it's build plans ARE NOT HIERARCHICAL. You don't load the components of the system in a context of loading the system itself. 2021-03-03T18:34:47Z terrorjack quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-03-03T18:38:48Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-03T18:44:55Z actuallybatman joined #lisp 2021-03-03T18:45:24Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-03-03T18:46:39Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-03T18:46:39Z nullx002 joined #lisp 2021-03-03T18:47:44Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-03T18:47:51Z nullx002 quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-03T18:48:21Z nullx002 joined #lisp 2021-03-03T18:51:39Z thatpythonboy joined #lisp 2021-03-03T18:51:52Z thatpythonboy: how is sbcl only 300KB? 2021-03-03T18:52:25Z thatpythonboy: what else lib does it use for compiling a simple program composing of loops and functions 2021-03-03T18:53:05Z Xach: thatpythonboy: sbcl is not 300KB 2021-03-03T18:53:45Z Xach: thatpythonboy: the runtime program is around 300KB, but it "loads" a much larger memory image when it starts up. 2021-03-03T18:53:53Z jasom: thatpythonboy: it's about 34MB from what I see 2021-03-03T18:53:57Z Xach: that memory image contains the compiler and other useful things 2021-03-03T18:55:08Z thatpythonboy: i am talking of only compiler 2021-03-03T18:55:38Z massma quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-03T18:55:54Z thatpythonboy: like tcc 200KB 2021-03-03T18:56:10Z Xach: It uses a compiler written in common lisp and saved in the startup memory image 2021-03-03T18:56:40Z thatpythonboy: but it's not a script? 2021-03-03T18:56:51Z Xach: It is not a script. 2021-03-03T18:57:13Z thatpythonboy: how small can a optimizing compiler be 2021-03-03T18:57:32Z Xach: For Common Lisp? Hard to say. 2021-03-03T18:57:44Z thatpythonboy: tcc let's say then 2021-03-03T18:57:52Z Xach: That is not the topic of this channel, sorry. 2021-03-03T18:57:52Z thatpythonboy: 248K /usr/bin/tcc 2021-03-03T18:57:57Z Xach: We talk about Common Lisp here. 2021-03-03T18:59:03Z beach: thatpythonboy: The size of the compiler is not typically the main objective of the compiler writer. The performance of the generated code is usually more important. 2021-03-03T19:00:23Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-03T19:01:42Z heisig: Legend has it CCL used to run using only 2MB of RAM. Its images have a size of 18Mb though. Still less than many fancy web pages. 2021-03-03T19:02:45Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-03T19:03:11Z jasom: The PDP-11 only had ~1MB of *address space* and compilers ran on it 2021-03-03T19:03:26Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-03T19:06:35Z heisig: jasom: Was there ever a PDP-11 running a full CL (all 978 external symbols, including the MOP and the condition system)? 2021-03-03T19:07:45Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-03-03T19:07:51Z Xach: If we can crowdfund one for stassats, it's just a matter of time 2021-03-03T19:07:54Z jasom: correction PDP-10 not PDP-11 brainfart there 2021-03-03T19:08:25Z gxt joined #lisp 2021-03-03T19:08:37Z me_at_drewc_ca quit (K-Lined) 2021-03-03T19:08:56Z orivej quit (K-Lined) 2021-03-03T19:10:01Z jasom: heisig: definitely not a CLtL2 CL; I don't think MACLISP even ever got all the features in CLtL1, early CLtL1 lisps at MIT might have been on CADR? 2021-03-03T19:10:26Z thatpythonboy: so in 69 ram was only 1MB! 2021-03-03T19:10:51Z jasom: thatpythonboy: ram was much less than 1MB; the virtual memory was 1MB 2021-03-03T19:11:52Z thatpythonboy: what do you mean then it's not possible to run a UNIX which they had then 2021-03-03T19:12:00Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-03T19:12:12Z jasom: thatpythonboy: you absolutely can run a unix in under 1MB of ram 2021-03-03T19:14:29Z jasom: heisig: the CADR had 24 bit virtual addresses and 22 bit physical addresses for 16/4MB limits on virtual and physical 2021-03-03T19:16:22Z iskander quit (Quit: bye) 2021-03-03T19:16:48Z heisig: And here I sit thinking about buying a machine with 256GB of RAM and 256MB of L3 cache. What a time to be alive :) 2021-03-03T19:17:01Z heisig: I wish software would get more exciting at the same pace. 2021-03-03T19:17:16Z jasom: heisig: though Gold Hill Common lisp ran on PCs in the mid 80's that was probably more constrained than a CADR in the mid 70s 2021-03-03T19:17:49Z thatpythonboy: where is virtual memory cached , is it like swap 2021-03-03T19:18:22Z jasom: thatpythonboy: swap is indeed one option for backing virtual memory 2021-03-03T19:21:30Z sauvin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-03T19:22:14Z actuallybatman quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-03T19:22:24Z rogersm_ joined #lisp 2021-03-03T19:22:30Z thatpythonboy: is it needed to store in storage the buffer to execute it, i prefer not to in emacs 2021-03-03T19:27:36Z terrorjack joined #lisp 2021-03-03T19:36:35Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-03-03T19:38:13Z nullx002 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-03T19:41:08Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone) 2021-03-03T19:43:56Z asdflkj joined #lisp 2021-03-03T19:45:46Z jprajzne quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-03T19:47:42Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2021-03-03T19:48:47Z rogersm_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-03T19:49:46Z rogersm_ joined #lisp 2021-03-03T19:51:59Z gareppa joined #lisp 2021-03-03T19:53:05Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-03-03T19:57:02Z jprajzne quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-03-03T19:57:33Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-03T19:59:08Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-03-03T20:01:09Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-03T20:01:17Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-03T20:01:22Z rogersm_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-03T20:01:53Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-03T20:02:00Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-03T20:02:35Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-03T20:03:14Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-03T20:03:27Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2021-03-03T20:06:15Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2021-03-03T20:06:27Z kpoeck joined #lisp 2021-03-03T20:08:36Z landakram quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-03T20:09:17Z jprajzne quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-03T20:10:09Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-03T20:10:34Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-03-03T20:12:32Z gareppa quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-03T20:15:31Z jeosol quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-03T20:15:58Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-03-03T20:16:36Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-03T20:16:40Z jmercouris: ??? 2021-03-03T20:16:45Z kenran joined #lisp 2021-03-03T20:16:49Z jmercouris: What could that question possibly even mean 2021-03-03T20:17:44Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2021-03-03T20:19:19Z thatpythonboy: can i put init.el in a loop like (loop every 1 second savefile) 2021-03-03T20:19:22Z thatpythonboy: but in that case init.el will never be terminated 2021-03-03T20:19:57Z jmercouris: Firstly, that question makes no sense, second ask on the emacs channel instead please 2021-03-03T20:20:13Z thatpythonboy: jmercouris: i did they won't help me 2021-03-03T20:20:26Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-03-03T20:20:38Z jmercouris: Maybe because the question is so poorly formulated nobody can discern your meaning 2021-03-03T20:20:48Z jmercouris: You must write clearly if you want assistance 2021-03-03T20:21:17Z thatpythonboy: jmercouris: it's very clear to me, though. 2021-03-03T20:21:45Z jmercouris: I’m glad to hear it, I would be surprised if your own stream of consciousness is unclear to you 2021-03-03T20:22:00Z thatpythonboy: so i want to press C-enter and make emacs display the output within emacs so sthat i don't have to go to gnome-terminal to see it... simple 2021-03-03T20:22:16Z jmercouris: However, when communicating with other individuals who are NOT inside your head, you must make effort to be clear 2021-03-03T20:22:25Z marusich quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-03T20:23:11Z thatpythonboy: i am made to switch windows to terminal to see the ouptut but prefer not to go out 2021-03-03T20:24:49Z thatpythonboy: jmercouris: simple problem 2021-03-03T20:25:58Z thatpyth1 joined #lisp 2021-03-03T20:27:49Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-03T20:29:43Z thatpythonboy quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-03T20:29:52Z terrorjack quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-03-03T20:32:55Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-03T20:33:57Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-03T20:34:03Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-03T20:34:39Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-03-03T20:34:55Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-03T20:35:40Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-03T20:35:45Z jprajzne quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-03-03T20:37:07Z paulj joined #lisp 2021-03-03T20:38:07Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2021-03-03T20:41:57Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2021-03-03T20:49:18Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-03T20:56:28Z jeosol joined #lisp 2021-03-03T20:58:57Z alanz: dbotton, your current clog master gives a backtrace for tutorial 24. https://gist.github.com/alanz/979b1cb4f9c45fbf8708bd771295d471 2021-03-03T20:59:15Z caret quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-03T20:59:20Z alanz: (at comit https://gist.github.com/alanz/979b1cb4f9c45fbf8708bd771295d471) 2021-03-03T20:59:24Z dbotton: Looking now 2021-03-03T20:59:56Z dbotton: What lisp? 2021-03-03T21:00:44Z kenran quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-03T21:01:01Z dbotton: Sorry obvious sbl 2021-03-03T21:01:37Z dbotton: Still haven't setup sbcl on my m1 Mac yet :( 2021-03-03T21:03:05Z kpoeck quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-03T21:04:16Z asdflkj: you could sell it and get a much faster Ryzen and a much lighter and thinner pinebook (when they're in stock) 2021-03-03T21:05:24Z warweasle quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 26.1) 2021-03-03T21:06:58Z dbotton: alanz found error - thanks! 2021-03-03T21:07:02Z alanz: dbotton, np 2021-03-03T21:08:57Z kpoeck joined #lisp 2021-03-03T21:09:37Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-03T21:10:45Z dbotton: Would you mind pulling and checking with sbcl 2021-03-03T21:11:10Z dbotton: I am in NY for the day and don't have access to anything but my Mac for now 2021-03-03T21:11:21Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-03T21:11:40Z dbotton: Sorry for the bother alanz 2021-03-03T21:12:11Z alanz: not at all, I saw changes decided to take a look. Only too happy to be able to test for you 2021-03-03T21:12:33Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-03T21:13:31Z alanz: dbotton, current master renders again. Nice to see it coming together. This is sbcl-2.1.1 on debian testing 2021-03-03T21:13:44Z dbotton: Thanks! 2021-03-03T21:13:49Z dbotton: Btw 2021-03-03T21:14:21Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-03T21:15:03Z dbotton: I have not been able to get cl-dbi to work for sqlserver on my Mac - corruptions to data etc - if easy enough can let me know if works on your platform 2021-03-03T21:15:33Z dbotton: Sorry sqlite3 2021-03-03T21:16:59Z dbotton: No rush, I decided to after wasting much time trying to track down why to focus on the clog-web stuff and then go back to continue work on database integration 2021-03-03T21:17:31Z loke`` joined #lisp 2021-03-03T21:18:52Z dbotton: (Worst case is I will just design things using separate database bindings which maybe ideal anyways) 2021-03-03T21:18:55Z alanz: dbotton, plain cl-sqlite works, as well as mito which I am working with in my toy app 2021-03-03T21:19:23Z dbotton: Yes I am using that now on the clog-db-admin 2021-03-03T21:19:43Z dbotton: It is just cl-dbi that is not working well 2021-03-03T21:19:45Z alanz: great 2021-03-03T21:20:06Z dbotton: (It is in the tools dir) 2021-03-03T21:20:46Z alanz: yes, I have been using/playing with. 2021-03-03T21:21:20Z alanz: But I tend to just run sqlitebrowser, the sqlite GUI to see the db 2021-03-03T21:21:52Z dbotton: Of course - it is not yet a replacement and more of a quick tool to test things 2021-03-03T21:22:13Z loke` quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-03T21:22:20Z alanz: Which is how I understand it. And that is useful for a hosted offering, eventually. 2021-03-03T21:22:48Z alanz: Althoughy many manchines have been pwned through leaving phpmysqladmin exposed 2021-03-03T21:23:34Z dbotton: Well this will also be a very realistic replacement on a local machine but it may be a year or so till I can give it the tic for that 2021-03-03T21:23:58Z KYCb quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.96 [SeaMonkey 2.53.6/20210118013008]) 2021-03-03T21:24:12Z alanz: yes, I see it very much as local machine apps only. It has no security stuff at all, as far as I know. At present. 2021-03-03T21:24:15Z dbotton: Since this is compile Lisp it helps a lot to deal with security 2021-03-03T21:24:36Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-03-03T21:24:40Z dbotton: Correct that is coming 2021-03-03T21:24:42Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-03-03T21:24:55Z dbotton: The auth framework is for sure part of 1.0 2021-03-03T21:24:56Z alanz: true. I just know securing web is hard, so steering away from that for now. 2021-03-03T21:25:42Z dbotton: That is where this tech has value as run https very hard to crack 2021-03-03T21:26:11Z alanz: yes, I was thinking that is a huge advantage. 2021-03-03T21:26:23Z dbotton: CLOG is not like php and lisp (unless someone does an eval...) helps 2021-03-03T21:27:00Z alanz: agree 2021-03-03T21:27:15Z _death: it could easily surpass sqlitebrowser in functionality if there's a way to customize presentation of values (that can be dispatched on particular columns, or other values).. for example some blobs may be images, or some serialization of data 2021-03-03T21:27:41Z dbotton: _death that is planned 2021-03-03T21:28:03Z dbotton: I have notes already on it 2021-03-03T21:28:23Z dbotton: gtg for now, alnaz thank you again 2021-03-03T21:28:32Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-03T21:28:43Z thijso quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-03T21:29:17Z thijso joined #lisp 2021-03-03T21:30:26Z iskander quit (Quit: bye) 2021-03-03T21:31:49Z kevingal_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-03T21:32:02Z kevingal_ joined #lisp 2021-03-03T21:32:15Z thatpythonboy joined #lisp 2021-03-03T21:32:27Z kevingal quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-03T21:32:37Z cods quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-03T21:33:15Z cods joined #lisp 2021-03-03T21:33:37Z TMA quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-03T21:33:37Z herlocks- quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-03T21:33:38Z penguwin quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-03T21:33:38Z zupss quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-03T21:33:38Z docl quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-03T21:33:38Z azrazalea quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-03T21:33:38Z fiddlerwoaroof quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-03T21:33:38Z dddddd quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-03T21:33:38Z stux|RC-only quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-03T21:33:38Z xantoz quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-03T21:33:38Z jbgg quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-03T21:33:38Z Inoperable quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-03T21:33:38Z White_Flame quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-03T21:33:38Z kbtr_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-03T21:33:38Z tumdum quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-03T21:33:38Z himmAllRight quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-03T21:33:38Z zagura quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-03T21:33:38Z zigpaw10 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-03T21:33:38Z pok quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-03T21:33:38Z MetaYan quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-03T21:34:44Z TMA joined #lisp 2021-03-03T21:34:44Z zupss joined #lisp 2021-03-03T21:34:44Z herlocks- joined #lisp 2021-03-03T21:34:44Z penguwin joined #lisp 2021-03-03T21:34:44Z docl joined #lisp 2021-03-03T21:34:44Z azrazalea joined #lisp 2021-03-03T21:34:44Z fiddlerwoaroof joined #lisp 2021-03-03T21:34:44Z dddddd joined #lisp 2021-03-03T21:34:44Z stux|RC-only joined #lisp 2021-03-03T21:34:44Z xantoz joined #lisp 2021-03-03T21:34:44Z jbgg joined #lisp 2021-03-03T21:34:44Z Inoperable joined #lisp 2021-03-03T21:34:44Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2021-03-03T21:34:44Z kbtr_ joined #lisp 2021-03-03T21:34:44Z tumdum joined #lisp 2021-03-03T21:34:44Z himmAllRight joined #lisp 2021-03-03T21:34:44Z zagura joined #lisp 2021-03-03T21:34:44Z zigpaw10 joined #lisp 2021-03-03T21:34:44Z pok joined #lisp 2021-03-03T21:34:44Z MetaYan joined #lisp 2021-03-03T21:35:17Z thatpyth1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-03T21:37:09Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-03T21:39:43Z kpoeck quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-03T21:40:30Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-03-03T21:42:26Z jeosol: jason: are you using and have used poiu? 2021-03-03T21:43:49Z jeosol: I recently had a chat with Fare about it. He no longer works on it. I got some errors and posted on #sbcl but no leads yet. 2021-03-03T21:44:09Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-03-03T21:45:02Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-03T21:54:08Z warweasle joined #lisp 2021-03-03T21:58:55Z terrorjack joined #lisp 2021-03-03T22:00:03Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-03T22:00:16Z jeosol quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-03T22:03:01Z drl quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-03T22:04:20Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-03-03T22:05:35Z cchristiansen joined #lisp 2021-03-03T22:06:46Z iskander quit (Quit: bye) 2021-03-03T22:08:41Z actuallybatman joined #lisp 2021-03-03T22:11:13Z olferino joined #lisp 2021-03-03T22:11:20Z olferino quit (Excess Flood) 2021-03-03T22:12:15Z kpoeck joined #lisp 2021-03-03T22:13:27Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-03T22:14:52Z actuallybatman quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-03T22:18:54Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2021-03-03T22:24:14Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-03-03T22:29:34Z iskander quit (Quit: bye) 2021-03-03T22:31:36Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-03T22:36:20Z pillton joined #lisp 2021-03-03T22:37:58Z ewd quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-03T22:38:35Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-03-03T22:39:10Z beach` joined #lisp 2021-03-03T22:39:12Z thatpythonboy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-03T22:39:32Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-03-03T22:44:01Z beach quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-03T22:44:05Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-03T22:45:49Z yonkunas quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-03T22:54:02Z pfdietz quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-03T22:54:51Z gitgood joined #lisp 2021-03-03T23:03:49Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-03T23:04:17Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-03-03T23:06:29Z pve quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-03T23:08:05Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-03-03T23:09:15Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-03-03T23:13:49Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-03T23:13:58Z jurov_ quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-03T23:14:17Z jurov joined #lisp 2021-03-03T23:15:07Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-03-03T23:17:20Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-03-03T23:18:01Z kevingal_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-03T23:22:07Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-03T23:22:33Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-03T23:29:47Z cchristiansen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-03T23:30:29Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-03T23:32:47Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-03T23:34:14Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-03T23:38:34Z Inline quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-03T23:40:33Z luna_is_here_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-03T23:41:07Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-03-03T23:41:42Z luna_is_here joined #lisp 2021-03-03T23:42:52Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-03T23:43:45Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2021-03-03T23:47:10Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-03T23:54:38Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-03T23:57:33Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-03T23:58:19Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-04T00:00:23Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-04T00:02:43Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-04T00:03:56Z cosimone quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-04T00:07:04Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-04T00:07:19Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2021-03-04T00:08:29Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1) 2021-03-04T00:08:45Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-03-04T00:11:33Z warweasle quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 26.1) 2021-03-04T00:11:46Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-03-04T00:11:51Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-04T00:11:55Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-04T00:14:49Z kpoeck quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-04T00:16:20Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-04T00:18:09Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-04T00:20:53Z nicktick joined #lisp 2021-03-04T00:21:43Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-04T00:36:02Z gitgoood joined #lisp 2021-03-04T00:36:36Z rpg joined #lisp 2021-03-04T00:39:04Z gitgood quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-04T00:43:49Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-04T00:44:43Z z3t0 quit (Quit: Free ZNC ~ Powered by LunarBNC: https://LunarBNC.net) 2021-03-04T00:48:20Z purpleLizard joined #lisp 2021-03-04T00:48:51Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2021-03-04T00:56:54Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-04T00:58:55Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-04T01:01:05Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-03-04T01:01:52Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2021-03-04T01:02:14Z casual_friday__ joined #lisp 2021-03-04T01:03:39Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-04T01:04:09Z wxie joined #lisp 2021-03-04T01:05:47Z casual_friday__ left #lisp 2021-03-04T01:11:10Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-04T01:16:14Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-04T01:16:30Z grobe0ba quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-04T01:16:41Z grobe0ba joined #lisp 2021-03-04T01:17:20Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-04T01:24:30Z earenndil joined #lisp 2021-03-04T01:24:32Z casual_friday_ joined #lisp 2021-03-04T01:25:19Z casual_friday quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-04T01:25:19Z moon-child quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-04T01:25:28Z earenndil is now known as moon-child 2021-03-04T01:25:58Z karlosz quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-04T01:33:38Z purpleLizard quit (Quit: purpleLizard) 2021-03-04T01:35:28Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-03-04T01:36:26Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2021-03-04T01:36:50Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-04T01:37:29Z gitgoood quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-04T01:43:41Z mindCrime quit (Excess Flood) 2021-03-04T01:44:07Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2021-03-04T01:44:44Z purpleLizard joined #lisp 2021-03-04T01:47:25Z karlosz quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-04T01:49:23Z Stanley00 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-04T01:52:55Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2021-03-04T02:01:37Z hiroaki_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-04T02:04:47Z z3t0 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-04T02:10:26Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-04T02:11:51Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-03-04T02:12:54Z niac joined #lisp 2021-03-04T02:14:38Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2021-03-04T02:16:45Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-04T02:19:26Z purpleLizard quit (Quit: purpleLizard) 2021-03-04T02:21:20Z casual_friday_ quit (Quit: %bye%) 2021-03-04T02:23:12Z semz joined #lisp 2021-03-04T02:24:04Z Gromboli joined #lisp 2021-03-04T02:24:23Z casual_friday joined #lisp 2021-03-04T02:26:01Z Stanley00 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-04T02:27:25Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2021-03-04T02:31:09Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-04T02:34:36Z Colleen quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-04T02:42:01Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2021-03-04T02:43:45Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-04T02:43:45Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2021-03-04T02:49:48Z swflint quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-04T02:50:06Z gum quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-04T02:54:07Z v3ga joined #lisp 2021-03-04T02:57:59Z purpleLizard joined #lisp 2021-03-04T02:59:58Z swflint joined #lisp 2021-03-04T03:00:17Z purpleLizard left #lisp 2021-03-04T03:04:09Z gum joined #lisp 2021-03-04T03:16:44Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-04T03:19:25Z Stanley00 quit 2021-03-04T03:20:04Z mr-iznogud joined #lisp 2021-03-04T03:21:05Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-04T03:23:27Z asarch joined #lisp 2021-03-04T03:28:15Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-04T03:32:25Z jeosol joined #lisp 2021-03-04T03:33:42Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-03-04T03:34:04Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-04T03:38:30Z mr-iznogud quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-04T03:38:48Z madage joined #lisp 2021-03-04T03:39:37Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-04T03:40:52Z mr-iznogud joined #lisp 2021-03-04T03:42:28Z asdflkj quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-04T03:49:02Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-03-04T03:52:19Z Sheilong quit 2021-03-04T03:53:06Z epony joined #lisp 2021-03-04T03:56:48Z slyrus quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2021-03-04T03:58:39Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-03-04T04:02:11Z Alfr is now known as Guest58907 2021-03-04T04:02:15Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-03-04T04:02:37Z madage quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-04T04:02:52Z madage joined #lisp 2021-03-04T04:04:26Z Guest58907 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-04T04:06:44Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-04T04:07:53Z beach` is now known as beach 2021-03-04T04:08:32Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2021-03-04T04:09:27Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp 2021-03-04T04:10:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: morning, beach 2021-03-04T04:16:09Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-04T04:16:15Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-04T04:21:36Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-04T04:33:35Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-03-04T04:38:22Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-04T04:42:58Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-04T04:58:39Z wxie joined #lisp 2021-03-04T05:05:35Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-03-04T05:10:13Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-04T05:23:18Z mr-iznogud quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-04T05:28:48Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-04T05:32:13Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-03-04T05:32:30Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-04T05:35:23Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-03-04T05:36:01Z actuallybatman joined #lisp 2021-03-04T05:42:08Z actuallybatman quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-04T05:48:27Z susam: Good morning, beach! 2021-03-04T05:48:30Z susam: Good morning, everyone! 2021-03-04T05:54:59Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-04T06:06:39Z slyrus__ joined #lisp 2021-03-04T06:07:24Z CrazyEddy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-04T06:09:19Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2021-03-04T06:10:32Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-04T06:11:54Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-04T06:12:01Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-04T06:12:44Z pillton quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-03-04T06:12:49Z kam1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-04T06:13:32Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-04T06:17:20Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-04T06:17:42Z CrazyEddy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-04T06:21:06Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2021-03-04T06:22:09Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-04T06:25:03Z slyrus__ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-04T06:26:05Z sauvin joined #lisp 2021-03-04T06:26:26Z White_Flame: jeosol: tried PMing you back, but it doesn't seem to be sending? 2021-03-04T06:28:10Z zap_ joined #lisp 2021-03-04T06:29:53Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-04T06:30:01Z frost-lab quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-04T06:30:30Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-04T06:32:24Z zap_ quit (Changing host) 2021-03-04T06:32:24Z zap_ joined #lisp 2021-03-04T06:32:29Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2021-03-04T06:33:16Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-03-04T06:37:24Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-04T06:37:33Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-04T06:40:51Z hjudt joined #lisp 2021-03-04T06:41:12Z hjudt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-04T06:41:55Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-03-04T06:47:15Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-04T06:47:31Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp 2021-03-04T06:49:35Z _jrjsmrtn quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-04T06:57:13Z flazh quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-04T06:57:38Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-04T07:01:35Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-04T07:01:45Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-04T07:15:23Z landakram joined #lisp 2021-03-04T07:17:12Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-04T07:20:11Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-04T07:23:21Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-04T07:24:22Z surabax joined #lisp 2021-03-04T07:25:15Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-04T07:27:07Z pve joined #lisp 2021-03-04T07:29:32Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-04T07:30:26Z ecraven quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-04T07:39:47Z kam1 quit (Quit: Quit) 2021-03-04T07:40:54Z jonatack_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-04T07:50:28Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-03-04T07:51:39Z engblom: Someone here recommended me to use clog for a project but I do not remember anymore who it was 2021-03-04T07:52:59Z gioyik quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-03-04T07:53:30Z ecraven joined #lisp 2021-03-04T07:55:04Z moon-child: possible dbotton, the clog dev? 2021-03-04T07:55:18Z engblom: Yes, dbotton, it was! 2021-03-04T07:55:25Z engblom: Thank you! 2021-03-04T07:57:27Z Cymew joined #lisp 2021-03-04T07:58:07Z olferino joined #lisp 2021-03-04T07:58:14Z olferino quit (Excess Flood) 2021-03-04T08:02:22Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2021-03-04T08:03:28Z olferino joined #lisp 2021-03-04T08:03:38Z olferino quit (Excess Flood) 2021-03-04T08:08:56Z engblom: What is the difference between (:use :cl ..... ) and (:use #:cl ....)? 2021-03-04T08:10:02Z flip214: engblom: in the first case, you might create a CL symbol in the keyword package (which most likely will already be there); in the second, a symbol in no package is used. 2021-03-04T08:11:24Z engblom: Thanks 2021-03-04T08:11:48Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2021-03-04T08:17:07Z loke[m]: flip214: Who was it that always used symbols from the CL namespace for his local variables in order to not pollute the namespace? 2021-03-04T08:17:37Z loke[m]: He was on here some time ago, and was adamant that it was important to save memory or something. 2021-03-04T08:20:25Z beach: I had a student once who used single-character variable names everywhere so that his program would run faster. 2021-03-04T08:20:44Z splittist: Fortran is fast. QED. 2021-03-04T08:21:30Z beach: This is a perfect example of a situation where lack of understanding of what a compiler does can have a negative impact on the maintainability of the code. 2021-03-04T08:22:07Z splittist: I sometimes wish quickref wouldn't title its pages "The [package] Reference Manual" and include the test "This is the [package] Reference Manual" - it can make finding the author-written reference manual (in the rare case there is one) more difficult. 2021-03-04T08:22:12Z lukego: beach: It's easy to laugh, but then I wonder if we are all doing more sophisticated versions of that same mistake all day every day anyway :) compilers and CPUs being so complex that our mental models are never really adequate 2021-03-04T08:22:26Z lukego: maybe it's one of those 80/20 situations though. 2021-03-04T08:22:34Z beach: Many students avoided defining variables in nested blocks inside loops in C, because then "they had to be created each time in the loop". 2021-03-04T08:23:19Z loke[m]: beach: and now people use Python and all of that is true again. 2021-03-04T08:23:26Z moon-child: or they try to reuse variables for disparate purposes because otherwise 'the compiler has to use extra stack space' 2021-03-04T08:23:42Z beach: lukego: My advice was always "If you don't know how the compiler works, then don't make any assumptions" 2021-03-04T08:23:46Z loke[m]: Python is so slow and has no optimiser, so I wouldn't be surprised if declaring a variable in a loop really does have an impact on performance. 2021-03-04T08:24:01Z beach: Heh! 2021-03-04T08:24:14Z beach: Another argument against that language. It's a disaster. 2021-03-04T08:24:35Z beach: moon-child: Yes, that's another good one. 2021-03-04T08:26:21Z lukego: I'm watching people say "lol dynamic typing sucks" on twitter and biting my tongue to make comments that maybe the language they are looking at e.g. Python just isn't putting it to good use :) 2021-03-04T08:26:40Z loke[m]: In my original reference, if I remember correctly the guy was arguing that the core large after dumping was needlessly large if it had interned local variables. 2021-03-04T08:27:31Z lukego: Xach: that's actually really encouraging that there are all these different Lisp universes with totally different cultures e.g. the people who have been using Franz/Allegro env for decades. I occasionally have ideas that seem a bit "outside the mainstream" - bad - but maybe it's really just outside my bubble - potentially good and healthy 2021-03-04T08:27:35Z landakram quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-04T08:27:53Z loke[m]: @luk 2021-03-04T08:28:10Z loke[m]: lukego: I know nothing about Allegro. How is it different? 2021-03-04T08:28:28Z loke[m]: In any case, they sure know how to prevent people from knowing anything about it. They don't have a free version, do they? 2021-03-04T08:28:47Z beach: loke[m]: It has a nice system for breakpoints, as I describe in my paper on debugging. 2021-03-04T08:28:53Z flip214: loke[m]: no idea. 2021-03-04T08:28:58Z lukego: loke[m]: I don't know, I've never tried living in that bubble, but I'm sure that a day of Lisp hacking for me looks much different than a day of Lisp hacking for (say) Duane Rettig. 2021-03-04T08:29:08Z flip214: beach: single-character variables _were_ faster - on BASIC on the C64 ;) 2021-03-04T08:29:51Z Grue`` joined #lisp 2021-03-04T08:29:51Z jmercouris_ joined #lisp 2021-03-04T08:29:52Z rme_ joined #lisp 2021-03-04T08:29:55Z Balooga_ joined #lisp 2021-03-04T08:29:55Z buoy49_ joined #lisp 2021-03-04T08:29:58Z mgxm_ joined #lisp 2021-03-04T08:29:59Z griffinbyatt_ joined #lisp 2021-03-04T08:29:59Z billstclair_ joined #lisp 2021-03-04T08:30:00Z dnm_ joined #lisp 2021-03-04T08:30:00Z mgsk__ joined #lisp 2021-03-04T08:30:02Z lukego: loke[m]: and they don't prevent people in their target market from knowing anything about it, only people like us who wouldn't buy it anyway and would just take up their time complaining about ELI etc :) 2021-03-04T08:30:02Z mjl_ joined #lisp 2021-03-04T08:30:02Z bytesighs_ joined #lisp 2021-03-04T08:30:03Z astronavt joined #lisp 2021-03-04T08:30:10Z drmeister_ joined #lisp 2021-03-04T08:30:16Z stylewarning_ joined #lisp 2021-03-04T08:30:17Z CEnnis91_ joined #lisp 2021-03-04T08:30:18Z beach: flip214: So this is a perfect example of prior knowledge is a disadvantage when attempting to study computer science and/or software development. 2021-03-04T08:30:24Z loke[m]: flip214: To be fair, C64 BASIC only supports 1 or 2 character for variable names :-) So you can choose between slow and slightly slower. 2021-03-04T08:30:50Z beach: Wow! 2021-03-04T08:31:08Z loke[m]: beach: wow! What happened? :-) 2021-03-04T08:31:23Z beaky_ joined #lisp 2021-03-04T08:31:29Z beach: Reacting to C64 facts. 2021-03-04T08:31:38Z loke[m]: beach: Ah yes. :-) 2021-03-04T08:32:12Z flip214: beach: _incomplete_ prior knowledge - not knowing _why_ it was slower, and not knowing the difference between an interpreter and a compiler 2021-03-04T08:32:14Z plisp1 joined #lisp 2021-03-04T08:32:26Z beach: Yeah. 2021-03-04T08:32:28Z kim_ joined #lisp 2021-03-04T08:32:32Z phoe_ joined #lisp 2021-03-04T08:32:44Z shrysr_ joined #lisp 2021-03-04T08:32:55Z flip214: loke[m]: LDA #34 <<< was soon what I was using instead of BASIC. SYS 64738 2021-03-04T08:32:56Z antoszka_ joined #lisp 2021-03-04T08:32:58Z thonkpod_ joined #lisp 2021-03-04T08:33:21Z felideon_ joined #lisp 2021-03-04T08:33:27Z olferino joined #lisp 2021-03-04T08:33:28Z olferino quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2021-03-04T08:33:33Z swflint quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-04T08:33:35Z lukego: In a large LuaJIT codebase we've had significant performance regressions due to renaming variables in the program. The compiler implements some variables as hashtable entries, the variables are defined incrementally as they are encountered in the running code, the collisions between names causes the hashtable to grow, the JIT emits code that only works well when the hashtable sizes are stable... 2021-03-04T08:33:42Z xristos_ joined #lisp 2021-03-04T08:33:58Z krjt joined #lisp 2021-03-04T08:34:31Z lukego: took me like a year to write a profiler good enough to sort out the many various messes of those kind 2021-03-04T08:35:03Z swflint joined #lisp 2021-03-04T08:35:49Z beach: Incredible. 2021-03-04T08:36:42Z MadestMadness_ joined #lisp 2021-03-04T08:38:10Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-03-04T08:39:19Z Necktwi joined #lisp 2021-03-04T08:43:31Z CEnnis91 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-04T08:43:31Z FennecCode quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-04T08:43:31Z phoe quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-04T08:43:31Z drmeister quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-04T08:43:31Z antoszka quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-04T08:43:31Z Grue` quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-04T08:43:31Z mgxm quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-04T08:43:31Z plisp quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-04T08:43:31Z astronavt___ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-04T08:43:31Z rme quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-04T08:43:31Z thonkpod quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-04T08:43:31Z dale quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-04T08:43:31Z mjl quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-04T08:43:31Z mgsk quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-04T08:43:31Z buoy49 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-04T08:43:31Z dnm quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-04T08:43:31Z billstclair quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-04T08:43:31Z jmercouris quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-04T08:43:32Z stylewarning quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-04T08:43:32Z bytesighs quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-04T08:43:32Z griffinbyatt quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-04T08:43:32Z Balooga quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-04T08:43:32Z beaky quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-04T08:43:32Z krjst quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-04T08:43:32Z shrysr quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-04T08:43:32Z xristos quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-04T08:43:32Z kim\ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-04T08:43:32Z felideon quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-04T08:43:33Z mgxm_ is now known as mgxm 2021-03-04T08:43:33Z felideon_ is now known as felideon 2021-03-04T08:43:35Z rme_ is now known as rme 2021-03-04T08:43:37Z mjl_ is now known as mjl 2021-03-04T08:43:38Z CEnnis91_ is now known as CEnnis91 2021-03-04T08:43:38Z drmeister_ is now known as drmeister 2021-03-04T08:43:38Z buoy49_ is now known as buoy49 2021-03-04T08:43:38Z jmercouris_ is now known as jmercouris 2021-03-04T08:43:41Z bytesighs_ is now known as bytesighs 2021-03-04T08:43:41Z dnm_ is now known as dnm 2021-03-04T08:43:45Z griffinbyatt_ is now known as griffinbyatt 2021-03-04T08:43:45Z Balooga_ is now known as Balooga 2021-03-04T08:43:46Z billstclair_ is now known as billstclair 2021-03-04T08:43:47Z mgsk__ is now known as mgsk 2021-03-04T08:43:52Z stylewarning_ is now known as stylewarning 2021-03-04T08:44:22Z dale joined #lisp 2021-03-04T08:44:37Z lukego: Yeah. The big problem with LuaJIT is that even after you've read all the sources and understand the compiler well enough to use effectively, you can't really explain how it works to other people while keeping a straight face. 2021-03-04T08:45:26Z retropikzel joined #lisp 2021-03-04T08:45:45Z swflint quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-04T08:46:45Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-04T08:48:28Z swflint joined #lisp 2021-03-04T08:48:42Z lukego begins the gradual descent into madness by modelling each pin of each IC in an electronics CAD package as its own CLOS class 2021-03-04T08:50:13Z beach: lukego: The term "CLOS class" is meaningless. All classes are part of CLOS. And every Common Lisp object is an instance of some class. 2021-03-04T08:51:21Z beach: lukego: Most of the time when people use that term, what they seem to mean is "standard class", i.e., the stuff you get most of the time when you use DEFCLASS. 2021-03-04T08:51:24Z lukego: Sure. But '(:GND VCC RST) is a lot different than (defclass GND (pin) ()) (defclass VCC (pin) ()) (defclass RST (pin))) 2021-03-04T08:52:22Z beach: I don't dispute that. 2021-03-04T08:52:57Z lukego: Seems like there's a bunch of information that you need to "hang" somewhere e.g. a certain pin should be connected to ground, another should have 3.3V power input, another should never be connected to anything else, etc. Major design choice seems to be how you organize all that information. I'm trying putting it directly onto the pin objects and making each one an arbitrarily complex "snowflow" with its own class and mthds 2021-03-04T08:53:02Z lukego: snowflake 2021-03-04T08:54:36Z beach: If you create a good protocol, you can alter the implementation as you please at some later point in time. 2021-03-04T08:54:42Z lukego: Tricky business in that I'm reading the datasheets for integrated circuits, and I need to capture all the important details ideally in a single pass, but I don't actually know what format makes sense until I've covered quite a few of them. Maybe I should just be using pseudocode notes but I feel like I've been overdoing that a bit lately. 2021-03-04T08:55:34Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-04T08:55:59Z beach notices the upcoming ELS deadline and decides to work on his call-site paper today. 2021-03-04T08:56:47Z lukego: I'd thought the simplest thing would be to just use symbols and then have generic functions that specialize with EQL but I figure classes are handy for capturing things like mixins and documentation strings 2021-03-04T09:00:08Z Colleen joined #lisp 2021-03-04T09:01:35Z beaky_ is now known as beaky 2021-03-04T09:01:53Z moon-child: lukego: it's not about mixins and documentation strings--you can have those either way--it's just row vs column approach to the expression problem 2021-03-04T09:06:21Z lukego: you guys are no fun :) 2021-03-04T09:07:22Z moon-child: ;) 2021-03-04T09:07:25Z moon-child: sorry 2021-03-04T09:07:28Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-03-04T09:07:57Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-03-04T09:08:53Z lukego: Maybe I'm being too chatty, I'll try to read the room better :) 2021-03-04T09:09:29Z moon-child: nah it's cool 2021-03-04T09:09:37Z moon-child: not like anything else is happening 2021-03-04T09:10:46Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-04T09:11:27Z lukego: It's an interesting problem that unfolds. The first pins are easy, like "This pin has to be connected to ground", "this pin should not be connected", "this pin should have a wide copper trace." but now it gets interesting with "this pin should be connected to that other pin with a 1kΩ resistor in between" and so now I need a way for a pin on one part to "imply" a whole other part and a pair of connections 2021-03-04T09:12:51Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-04T09:13:46Z flip214: lukego: in the past, I've often started with keywords; went to lists; and then structure or classes as the amount of data to store became too unwieldy in a list. 2021-03-04T09:13:51Z lukego: and in a traditional CAD package you might leave this informal for the designer to worry about, or make it a design rule that is checked, but it would be neat to just do it automatically "defmacro style" 2021-03-04T09:13:59Z flip214: nowadays I'm more likely to start with an empty class 2021-03-04T09:14:49Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-04T09:16:29Z lukego: I think the fact that I'm using CLIM in this application makes me also lean towards using classes. Since then the types I'm defining also have a meaning in that universe e.g. to create presentation methods and so on. I noticed this with Smalltalk - whole classes might feel like overkill but they are darned handy places to hang extension methods for things like graphical inspectors. 2021-03-04T09:18:45Z pve: lukego: what are you building? 2021-03-04T09:20:52Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-03-04T09:20:53Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2021-03-04T09:20:53Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-03-04T09:26:35Z heisig joined #lisp 2021-03-04T09:34:36Z akoana joined #lisp 2021-03-04T09:35:23Z akoana quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-04T09:39:41Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-04T09:41:18Z lukego: pve: CAD package for "algorithmic design" of PCBs. Like a KiCad clone but instead of torturously routing the traces by clicking the mouse, you torturously route the traces by tweaking the heuristics 2021-03-04T09:42:35Z pve: lukego: nice! 2021-03-04T09:44:08Z loke[m]: flip214: In a way it was a good thing that C64 BASIC implementation was so dumb. It forced people to learn assembler. 2021-03-04T09:45:32Z flip214: loke[m]: no, it didn't. There was also Pascal, for example. 2021-03-04T09:46:18Z loke[m]: flip214: But Pascal wasn't used much. In fact I have never heard of anyone using Pascal on C64 (that doesn't mean noone did, jsut that this is my experience) 2021-03-04T09:46:30Z loke[m]: There was also a COBOL for C64, did you know that? ;_) 2021-03-04T09:47:57Z phoe_ is now known as phoe 2021-03-04T09:48:02Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-03-04T09:48:10Z lukego: I didn't learn assembler on the C=64 and that's a lasting regret. I think I was just a bit young though, learned it on the Amiga instead. 2021-03-04T09:48:42Z loke[m]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jukYdilQjOo 2021-03-04T09:50:35Z flip214: is there a (VALUES* ...) analogue to (LIST* ...)? 2021-03-04T09:50:57Z beach: flip214: (apply #'values ....) 2021-03-04T09:52:12Z flip214: beach: ah, yeah, right. VALUES is a normal function, not a special operator... 2021-03-04T09:52:45Z beach: Yep. 2021-03-04T09:53:21Z beach: flip214: "yeah, right" is the only case in English that turns a double positive into a negative. :) 2021-03-04T09:53:56Z beach: flip214: As in "I am the greatest Common Lisp programmer in the world" "yeah, right". 2021-03-04T09:54:28Z flip214: beach: sorry. I'm just a lowly non-native-english speaker, so I wouldn't know about all these fine points... 2021-03-04T09:54:40Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-03-04T09:54:55Z flip214: (but you're right - I already knew that, just didn't #'apply the knowledge when answering. Sorry.) 2021-03-04T09:54:58Z beach: No need to be sorry. I know you are a non-native speaker. So I wanted to let you know. 2021-03-04T09:55:08Z beach: Heh. 2021-03-04T09:55:57Z kevingal_ joined #lisp 2021-03-04T09:57:49Z lukego: "yeah, nah" is my favorite english-ism, but I think it might only be aus/nz. it means "actually no" 2021-03-04T09:58:31Z lukego: "I'm the greatest common lisp programmer in the world" "yeah, nah, the great Quux." 2021-03-04T10:01:01Z jmercouris: As another native speaker I would like to also point out that depending on how you stretch out the “yeah” in “yeah, right”, it may be a affirmation OR a negation. A long “yeah” typically signifies negation 2021-03-04T10:07:18Z wxie joined #lisp 2021-03-04T10:08:15Z nicktick joined #lisp 2021-03-04T10:08:52Z nullx002 joined #lisp 2021-03-04T10:17:04Z lukego: I am for the moment resisting renaming these pins from short abbreviations like "pg" and "fb" to proper names like "power-good" and "feedback" but I'll do that later if I think it won't be too confusing wrt referencing specifications. 2021-03-04T10:18:07Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-03-04T10:31:58Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-04T10:34:57Z louis771 quit (Quit: My M1 has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-04T10:41:59Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-03-04T10:46:55Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-04T10:49:04Z edgar-rft also likes to design chips with "paul graham" and "facebook" pins 2021-03-04T10:54:44Z VincentVega joined #lisp 2021-03-04T10:55:34Z paulj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-04T10:57:28Z VincentVega: Is there a way to get access to a class-allocated slot value without instantiation? 2021-03-04T10:58:11Z beach: mop class-prototype 2021-03-04T10:58:11Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/class-prototype.html 2021-03-04T10:59:30Z VincentVega: beach: awesome, thanks! 2021-03-04T10:59:44Z beach: Pleasure. 2021-03-04T11:00:06Z vegansbane6963 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-03-04T11:16:45Z jeosol quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-04T11:18:15Z jeosol joined #lisp 2021-03-04T11:20:58Z rtypo joined #lisp 2021-03-04T11:21:04Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-04T11:21:30Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-04T11:24:44Z OlCe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-04T11:26:16Z OlCe joined #lisp 2021-03-04T11:29:19Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-03-04T11:30:33Z niac quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-04T11:31:18Z ramus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-04T11:31:51Z retropikzel quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-04T11:37:27Z ramus joined #lisp 2021-03-04T11:39:07Z pacon joined #lisp 2021-03-04T11:41:02Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-04T11:42:09Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-04T11:43:22Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-04T11:43:40Z pacon quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-04T11:44:36Z pacon joined #lisp 2021-03-04T11:50:16Z pacon quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-04T11:50:50Z pacon joined #lisp 2021-03-04T11:51:02Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-04T11:51:34Z lowryder joined #lisp 2021-03-04T11:54:27Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-04T12:04:41Z splittist: lukego: you can have multiple accessors for a slot, so you can have the short AND the long names (: 2021-03-04T12:06:19Z lukego: oh goodie, more options :D 2021-03-04T12:14:00Z zap_ is now known as CrazyEddy 2021-03-04T12:15:59Z bjorkintosh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-04T12:16:16Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2021-03-04T12:16:18Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-04T12:17:33Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-04T12:19:39Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-04T12:19:58Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-04T12:20:27Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-04T12:41:16Z rpg joined #lisp 2021-03-04T12:43:16Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-04T12:46:59Z rpg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-04T12:47:10Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-04T12:47:15Z matryoshka joined #lisp 2021-03-04T12:47:47Z srandon111 joined #lisp 2021-03-04T12:48:18Z srandon111 quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-04T12:50:32Z aindilis joined #lisp 2021-03-04T12:52:21Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-04T12:53:22Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone) 2021-03-04T12:53:43Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-04T12:57:55Z cosimone quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-04T13:08:56Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-03-04T13:10:14Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-04T13:16:01Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-04T13:19:19Z louis771 quit (Quit: My M1 has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-04T13:20:06Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-03-04T13:22:16Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-04T13:27:55Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-03-04T13:30:03Z nullx002 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-04T13:30:37Z nullx002 joined #lisp 2021-03-04T13:47:35Z louis771 quit (Quit: My M1 has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-04T13:49:51Z toorevitimirp quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-04T13:56:43Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-03-04T14:00:35Z Sheilong joined #lisp 2021-03-04T14:01:58Z frgo_ joined #lisp 2021-03-04T14:03:08Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-03-04T14:04:54Z VincentVega joined #lisp 2021-03-04T14:05:17Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-04T14:06:27Z scymtym quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-04T14:08:26Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-04T14:09:49Z jonatack_ quit (Quit: jonatack_) 2021-03-04T14:11:44Z frgo_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-04T14:13:52Z notzmv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-04T14:14:57Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-04T14:15:10Z notzmv is now known as Guest44840 2021-03-04T14:16:58Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-04T14:17:17Z ldb joined #lisp 2021-03-04T14:17:22Z ldb: good evening 2021-03-04T14:18:34Z Guest44840 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-04T14:19:05Z notzmv- joined #lisp 2021-03-04T14:20:16Z beach: Hello ldb. 2021-03-04T14:21:45Z egp__ quit (Quit: EXIT) 2021-03-04T14:22:09Z egp_ joined #lisp 2021-03-04T14:23:59Z nullx002 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-04T14:24:49Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-04T14:25:06Z egp_ quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-04T14:25:28Z JokerAscensionEx joined #lisp 2021-03-04T14:26:19Z JokerAscensionEx quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-04T14:26:37Z JokerAscensionEx joined #lisp 2021-03-04T14:27:41Z notzmv- is now known as notzmv 2021-03-04T14:31:33Z Lord_of_Life quit (Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine) 2021-03-04T14:32:29Z scymtym joined #lisp 2021-03-04T14:33:52Z nullx002 joined #lisp 2021-03-04T14:33:59Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2021-03-04T14:34:35Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-03-04T14:37:05Z nullx002 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-04T14:37:13Z gitgood joined #lisp 2021-03-04T14:38:56Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-04T14:40:22Z warweasle joined #lisp 2021-03-04T14:42:17Z nullx002 joined #lisp 2021-03-04T14:43:20Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-04T14:47:09Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-04T14:51:22Z pyx joined #lisp 2021-03-04T14:51:23Z nullx002 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-04T14:51:29Z pyx quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-04T14:52:21Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-04T14:52:26Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-04T14:52:43Z nullx002 joined #lisp 2021-03-04T14:55:30Z hineios quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-03-04T14:55:35Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-04T14:55:48Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-04T14:55:52Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-04T14:55:54Z lukego: I'm veering towards having a separate PACKAGE for each kind of IC now and maybe that is accelerating the descent into madness? but I'd quite like to represent each type of pin as its own class, and ICs tend to have pins with the same names but different properties 2021-03-04T14:58:16Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-04T14:58:54Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-04T14:59:30Z sjl joined #lisp 2021-03-04T14:59:43Z splittist: The punning of 'package' is attractive 2021-03-04T14:59:53Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-04T15:00:44Z X-Scale: lukego: are you trying to simulate hardware modules and their interconnections in LISP ? 2021-03-04T15:01:26Z rgc joined #lisp 2021-03-04T15:01:34Z nullx002 quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-03-04T15:02:02Z lukego: no, I'm trying to do design rule checks (enforce requirements specified informally in the datasheet) and to automate the busywork (e.g. add external resistors/capacitors that are required but not interesting enough to bother a human about) 2021-03-04T15:02:55Z nullx002 joined #lisp 2021-03-04T15:04:11Z lukego: also I'm trying to blur the line between "schematic" and "board design." I'll do both at the same time as a single operation. So my "schematic" will include board-related requirements e.g. that certain traces can't have vias, must be short, must be wide, etc. 2021-03-04T15:04:46Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp 2021-03-04T15:04:54Z schweers joined #lisp 2021-03-04T15:09:05Z Carkh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-04T15:10:09Z Oddity joined #lisp 2021-03-04T15:20:00Z beach: X-Scale: Are you new here? I don't recognize your nick. 2021-03-04T15:20:55Z rozenglass joined #lisp 2021-03-04T15:22:14Z X-Scale: beach: I've been in this channel for around 16 years. I just don't talk much. I mostly lurk :) 2021-03-04T15:22:22Z flip214: lukego: have the _classes_ of pins (vcc, gnd, GPIO) in one package; and an IC has an array of pins, which are instances of these classes. 2021-03-04T15:22:34Z beach: X-Scale: Got it. 2021-03-04T15:23:12Z flip214: you can also model the pins via multiple inheritance - a specific pin could be an anonymous class with parents (GPIO MISO ANALOG-IN PWM), for example. 2021-03-04T15:23:43Z lukego: flip214: That's what I'm thinking. But then each IC is different, and a "GPIO" pin for IC FOO is not the same as for IC BAR, so I'm thinking I'll have separate foo:GPIO and bar:GPIO classes (and factor as much as make sense into common superclasses and mixins) 2021-03-04T15:25:00Z lukego: This might be a bit extreme but it would seem to give maximum flexibility for adding weird and wonderful design rules based on quirks described informally in data sheets 2021-03-04T15:26:38Z lukego: (Of course I can redo all this later, at the moment I'm just thinking aloud as I make a first pass through a set of datasheets, trying to find some notation for writing down details that I want to capture but aren't really sure about how yet) 2021-03-04T15:31:37Z flip214: lukego: perhaps it would be more sane to fix quirks by having some additional superclass IC-FOO-QUIRKS-2021/3.2? that would also help to reference the special quirk... 2021-03-04T15:31:43Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-04T15:32:03Z lukego: yeah could be so. I guess that this also fits with having a separate class per pin per IC 2021-03-04T15:32:28Z lukego: I am maybe a bit drunk on the apparent cheapness of defining classes, we'll see how the hangover is tomorrow... 2021-03-04T15:34:20Z flip214: lukego: in case of such special quirks, you could simple have a _named_ class for this pin - and override methods on it. for "normal" pins without quirks (are there any?? ;) an anonymous class with inherited behaviour is used. 2021-03-04T15:35:04Z lukego: I've not even heard of anonymous classes before... 2021-03-04T15:36:24Z beach: lukego: Well, they can be anonymous in the sense that FIND-CLASS won't find them. 2021-03-04T15:36:47Z flip214: https://groups.google.com/g/comp.lang.lisp/c/RQXC3RV_Y24 2021-03-04T15:37:25Z flip214: but (at least from a debugging POV) it might be much easier to just name them after the IC and pin. 2021-03-04T15:37:45Z flip214: do you also plan to have multiple revisions of ICs, with slightly different behaviour? 2021-03-04T15:38:50Z ewd joined #lisp 2021-03-04T15:40:00Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-04T15:43:40Z lukego: I want to say "no" but... 2021-03-04T15:44:38Z aggin joined #lisp 2021-03-04T15:45:48Z nullx002 quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-03-04T15:46:24Z flip214: so you might need a way to clone an IC revision but with a few pins being a different class... 2021-03-04T15:46:58Z aggin quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-04T15:48:37Z lukego: Just now I have a (pins IC) method that returns the pins i.e. does a make-instance on the appropriate pin classes and assigns them IDs (numbers) to match the datasheet. So I guess for revisions and errata I could make subclasses of the IC and override the PINS method to apply the tweaks 2021-03-04T15:51:28Z nullx002 joined #lisp 2021-03-04T15:51:52Z nullx002 quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-04T15:52:18Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-03-04T15:52:28Z nullx002 joined #lisp 2021-03-04T15:54:03Z schweers quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-04T15:56:58Z ggole joined #lisp 2021-03-04T15:58:44Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-03-04T15:58:55Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-04T16:00:03Z slyrus quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-04T16:09:18Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-03-04T16:09:18Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2021-03-04T16:09:18Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-03-04T16:16:25Z hiroaki_ joined #lisp 2021-03-04T16:16:49Z peasynt joined #lisp 2021-03-04T16:17:04Z yonkunas joined #lisp 2021-03-04T16:17:30Z aggin joined #lisp 2021-03-04T16:18:20Z aggin quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-04T16:21:06Z schweers joined #lisp 2021-03-04T16:21:59Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-03-04T16:22:39Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-04T16:24:12Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-04T16:24:37Z curtosis joined #lisp 2021-03-04T16:26:38Z kevingal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-04T16:26:38Z kevingal_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-04T16:27:31Z jmercouris: how to find functions in my code that are not called anywhere? 2021-03-04T16:27:48Z jmercouris: I can "who-calls" and see if there are any entries, of course this is not bulletproof 2021-03-04T16:27:54Z jmercouris: there are still convoluted ways to funcall 2021-03-04T16:28:09Z jmercouris: I'm not looking for a perfect suggestion, just a way to find candidate orphaned defuns 2021-03-04T16:29:58Z Lycurgus: grep and all you get is the def? 2021-03-04T16:30:07Z Nilby: I believe CCL reports on unused functions. 2021-03-04T16:30:08Z jmercouris: that would work... I guess 2021-03-04T16:30:16Z jmercouris: but you would need a list of all defuns to pass to grep 2021-03-04T16:30:44Z jmercouris: I will see what CCL has to offer 2021-03-04T16:32:18Z ldb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-04T16:37:17Z Bike: it's hard to gauge what's actually unused, and what is just used in code you haven't loaded yet, or is intended for repl use 2021-03-04T16:37:22Z flazh joined #lisp 2021-03-04T16:37:49Z Bike: i suppose if you wanted to mechanize it you could make a list of non exported symbols from your package, see what's fbound, and grep for those 2021-03-04T16:38:53Z arpunk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-04T16:40:30Z Nilby: Yes, it's probably better to say CCL warns about unused functions in some limited circumstances. 2021-03-04T16:44:58Z jmercouris: well yeah 2021-03-04T16:45:00Z jmercouris: that's what I'm saying 2021-03-04T16:45:06Z jmercouris: there's all sorts of way a particular codepath isn't hit 2021-03-04T16:45:15Z jmercouris: I just want to know if that symbol doesn't appear elsewhere in the codebase 2021-03-04T16:45:25Z jmercouris: that's more or less all you /could/ know 2021-03-04T16:45:51Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-03-04T16:45:51Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2021-03-04T16:45:51Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-03-04T16:47:09Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-04T16:48:05Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-03-04T16:49:30Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-04T16:56:43Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-04T17:03:38Z schweers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-04T17:05:20Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone) 2021-03-04T17:10:15Z contrapunctus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-04T17:10:27Z pranavats quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-04T17:15:01Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-04T17:15:37Z peasynt quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-03-04T17:15:50Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-03-04T17:16:20Z eoyath_ joined #lisp 2021-03-04T17:16:27Z eoyath_ quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-04T17:17:14Z eoyath_ joined #lisp 2021-03-04T17:17:14Z eoyath_ quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-04T17:20:47Z waleee-cl joined #lisp 2021-03-04T17:23:30Z pranavats joined #lisp 2021-03-04T17:25:06Z rwcom60280385034 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-03-04T17:26:41Z nullx002 quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-03-04T17:27:08Z _death: stumbled on https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=comp.lang.lisp/O2rT-3JY/5oEQdSWXNy8J 2021-03-04T17:27:32Z nullx002 joined #lisp 2021-03-04T17:29:22Z ewd quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-04T17:31:25Z antoszka_ is now known as antoszka 2021-03-04T17:32:28Z tinhatcat joined #lisp 2021-03-04T17:32:38Z eoyath_ joined #lisp 2021-03-04T17:32:38Z eoyath_ quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-04T17:32:39Z tinhatcat quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-04T17:33:08Z rixard joined #lisp 2021-03-04T17:33:09Z peasynt joined #lisp 2021-03-04T17:40:23Z jmercouris: let's say I have a function #'salmon 2021-03-04T17:40:34Z jmercouris: how can I get "salmon"? given just the # 2021-03-04T17:40:42Z jmercouris: I understand it is a bit of a nonsense question 2021-03-04T17:40:47Z jmercouris: I guess functions don't need to have names 2021-03-04T17:40:50Z jmercouris: ... 2021-03-04T17:41:02Z _death: you can try function-lambda-expression 2021-03-04T17:41:02Z jmercouris: hm... 2021-03-04T17:41:04Z rwcom60280385034 joined #lisp 2021-03-04T17:41:23Z jmercouris: I guess that may work 2021-03-04T17:42:41Z nullx002 quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-03-04T17:43:02Z jackdaniel: swank::function-name would be an answer, but as you have pointed out, it is just a conveniance hack (i.e returns a name with which the function was defined) 2021-03-04T17:43:10Z jackdaniel: because the function may have many (or no) names 2021-03-04T17:43:14Z jackdaniel: s/no/none/ 2021-03-04T17:43:37Z jmercouris: yeah, this is a generalized problem with our API 2021-03-04T17:43:49Z jmercouris: the user can specify a list of actions to be performed on a list of objects 2021-03-04T17:44:00Z jmercouris: this list of actions can be a function, a lambda, a symbol (which should point to a function) 2021-03-04T17:44:08Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-04T17:44:12Z jmercouris: the problem is, how to represent anonymous functions to the end user 2021-03-04T17:44:16Z rwcom60280385034 quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-04T17:44:17Z jmercouris: we can't just write "ANONYMOUS FUNCTION" 2021-03-04T17:44:20Z jmercouris: they should know what it intends to do 2021-03-04T17:45:22Z heisig: jmercouris: Sounds like a case for funcallable standard objects with additional metadata. 2021-03-04T17:45:38Z jmercouris: how could we declare a lambda with additional data? 2021-03-04T17:45:51Z jmercouris: we would need to wrap it in some form like (action "name" (lambda () ...)) ? 2021-03-04T17:46:10Z jackdaniel: just subclass funcallable and slap there a slot name 2021-03-04T17:46:28Z jmercouris: hm 2021-03-04T17:46:29Z jackdaniel: oh, what heisig said 2021-03-04T17:46:37Z jackdaniel: time to grab a coffee to not duplicate other answers :) 2021-03-04T17:46:38Z _death: or (defstruct callable function ringtone) 2021-03-04T17:46:55Z jmercouris: yes 2021-03-04T17:47:01Z jmercouris: we need a class 2021-03-04T17:48:19Z heisig: Of course this means you'll have to wrap closures somehow. But this wrapping is kind of the point, because you want to add additional information for your users. 2021-03-04T17:48:23Z Bourne quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-04T17:48:27Z jmercouris: Yes 2021-03-04T17:49:34Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-04T17:50:58Z heisig: You could also have a custom DEFUN-like macro that does the wrapping for top-level definition. Bonus points if that macro supports (interactive ...) clauses :) 2021-03-04T17:52:35Z vhost- quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8) 2021-03-04T17:52:52Z jmercouris: we already have a defun-like macro 2021-03-04T17:52:53Z Nilby: I do something like that where a user action can just be a form, which can be internally cached as function. 2021-03-04T17:53:20Z jmercouris: you know what, maybe I am overthinking 2021-03-04T17:53:24Z jmercouris: perhaps a plist is enough 2021-03-04T17:53:52Z jmercouris: (list "description" 'function1 "description2" #'function3 "description3" (lambda (i) "tomato")) 2021-03-04T17:54:01Z jmercouris: or whatever that type of alternating list is called 2021-03-04T17:54:05Z jmercouris: I can't ever remember plist vs alist 2021-03-04T17:54:20Z jmercouris: or maybe a two dimensional list 2021-03-04T17:54:23Z ggole quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-04T17:54:44Z jmercouris: decisions decisions decisions... 2021-03-04T17:55:07Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-04T17:55:42Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-04T17:56:14Z nullx002 joined #lisp 2021-03-04T17:56:55Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-04T17:57:31Z vhost- joined #lisp 2021-03-04T17:57:31Z vhost- quit (Changing host) 2021-03-04T17:57:31Z vhost- joined #lisp 2021-03-04T17:58:01Z jackdaniel: you should focus on the actual problem. over and over again you ask, how you can get a salmon - you should either make a contract with a local store or invest in a rod ,) 2021-03-04T17:58:27Z jmercouris: hm, a good idea, I should buy a boat 2021-03-04T17:58:51Z rwcom60280385034 joined #lisp 2021-03-04T17:59:02Z Demosthe1ex is now known as Demosthenex 2021-03-04T17:59:05Z nullx002 quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-04T18:00:41Z ewd joined #lisp 2021-03-04T18:00:59Z slyrus_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-04T18:01:31Z nullx002 joined #lisp 2021-03-04T18:02:09Z flazh quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-04T18:02:19Z nullx002 quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-04T18:13:23Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-03-04T18:16:31Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-04T18:26:52Z nullx002 joined #lisp 2021-03-04T18:27:33Z nullx002 quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-04T18:29:23Z xantoz quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-04T18:33:52Z gitgood quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-04T18:33:59Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2021-03-04T18:42:24Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-03-04T18:44:32Z paulj joined #lisp 2021-03-04T18:46:53Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-03-04T18:50:14Z Josh_2: Hi 2021-03-04T18:50:14Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-04T18:50:46Z Josh_2: Is there a library that utilizes metaclasses to save to and load from a file? the format should be a human readable format so that someone could edit it 2021-03-04T18:51:20Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-04T18:52:17Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-04T18:52:35Z Josh_2: I'm not fussed about the format, but currently I just save my object as a list, but I assume someone will have written a library that does this for me 2021-03-04T18:56:05Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-04T18:56:26Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-04T18:56:44Z _death: it sounds like cl-prevalence, but may also want to check out clobber 2021-03-04T18:56:58Z nullx002 joined #lisp 2021-03-04T18:57:44Z nullx002 quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-04T19:01:40Z Josh_2: does that let me just serialize my class object and save it to a file? I don't need transaction records etc 2021-03-04T19:02:36Z Josh_2: ooh maybe cl-store 2021-03-04T19:04:10Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-04T19:04:36Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-04T19:06:26Z Josh_2: ah rip thats not really human readable 2021-03-04T19:11:47Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-03-04T19:15:26Z jasom: I don't know of anything that checks all the boxes, but I think cl-store lets you customize the format, so you might be able to make it human-readable 2021-03-04T19:16:02Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-04T19:17:08Z jasom: https://common-lisp.net/project/cl-store/docs/cl-store_5.html#SEC19 2021-03-04T19:17:39Z rgc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-04T19:18:08Z markasoftware: Josh 2, how important is the customization of the serialization format 2021-03-04T19:18:40Z Josh_2: it just has to be human readable so that users can edit it, plus I need to be able to stop the serialization of some slots 2021-03-04T19:18:40Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-04T19:18:55Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-04T19:18:58Z Josh_2: honestly if I can't find something I can probably just make something myself 2021-03-04T19:19:15Z Josh_2: What I have now works just fine, It's just a pain if I want to add any new slots 2021-03-04T19:19:25Z markasoftware: Are you still trying for a lispy format or nah 2021-03-04T19:19:30Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-04T19:19:49Z Josh_2: doesn't matter, just needs to be readable 2021-03-04T19:20:03Z markasoftware: With parens 2021-03-04T19:20:11Z Josh_2: with human eyes :P 2021-03-04T19:20:25Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-04T19:20:28Z Josh_2: and obviously needs to be read back into the lisp image 2021-03-04T19:21:29Z sauvin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-04T19:21:35Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-04T19:22:41Z markasoftware: this may or may not be sufficient for you, i wrote it a while back https://paste2.org/6peXV2De 2021-03-04T19:22:50Z hiroaki_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-04T19:23:02Z markasoftware: it converts an object and slots into a cons-only structure, which you can then just (print) 2021-03-04T19:23:14Z Josh_2: I'll give it a run 2021-03-04T19:23:16Z Josh_2: Thanks 2021-03-04T19:23:20Z markasoftware: by default, it works on slots that have initargs set 2021-03-04T19:23:30Z markasoftware: but if you specialize consify-initargs you could remove slots you don't want 2021-03-04T19:23:37Z Josh_2: Okay epic 2021-03-04T19:23:40Z jasom: Josh_2: cl-marshal looks like it meets your requirements 2021-03-04T19:24:39Z markasoftware: the main functions are (consify) and (unconsify) 2021-03-04T19:24:42Z jasom: https://github.com/wlbr/cl-marshal never used it, but it hits all of the points including letting you specify which slots of an object should be serialized 2021-03-04T19:29:21Z contrapunctus quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-04T19:29:21Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-04T19:30:48Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-04T19:33:07Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-04T19:33:18Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-04T19:34:50Z hiroaki_ joined #lisp 2021-03-04T19:37:27Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-04T19:38:25Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-04T19:38:42Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-04T19:45:16Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-04T19:50:06Z jeosol quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2021-03-04T19:53:46Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-04T19:54:00Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-04T19:54:00Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-04T19:54:19Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-04T19:54:35Z Josh_2: Well Marshal doesn't seem to be working for me 2021-03-04T19:55:04Z jasom: though a few tests I just ran on cl-marshal show some weaknesses; it only marshals to a list, so it is up to you to turn thie list into a string (presumably with *print-readably*. It also does not generate references for non-aggregate types, so you would need *print-circle* to correctly handle gensyms (though that still would only guarantee equality within the serialization, which is the best you 2021-03-04T19:55:05Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-03-04T19:55:06Z jasom: can practically do with a serialization format) 2021-03-04T19:56:42Z Josh_2: I can marshal my primary object but I cannot unmarshal it 2021-03-04T19:57:04Z Josh_2: I get an 'index-too-large-error 2021-03-04T19:57:45Z Josh_2: I think I will just utilize some of what markasoftware provided to make it easier to extend my own 2021-03-04T19:58:49Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-04T19:59:10Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-04T20:01:10Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-04T20:02:20Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-04T20:02:58Z asdflkj joined #lisp 2021-03-04T20:04:38Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-04T20:05:36Z cage_: Josh_2, what are you trying to unmarshal? 2021-03-04T20:06:28Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-04T20:07:43Z Josh_2: the result of evaluating (ms:marshal ) 2021-03-04T20:09:28Z cage_: i have not touched the library in years, if you can show some code to reproduce the issue i can try to see what is wrong 2021-03-04T20:09:29Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-04T20:09:50Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-04T20:10:12Z cage_: i am quite busy but i will try to address the problem when (and, sadly if) possible :) 2021-03-04T20:10:19Z Josh_2: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2320#2320 2021-03-04T20:10:24Z cage_: thanks! 2021-03-04T20:10:40Z gitgood joined #lisp 2021-03-04T20:11:05Z cage_: can i see also the class definition? this would help 2021-03-04T20:11:44Z Josh_2: https://github.com/K1D77A/Moonbot/blob/master/src/classes.lisp here It's the first class 'moonbot' 2021-03-04T20:11:52Z cage_: thank you! 2021-03-04T20:12:35Z cage_: ah and thank you for wrapping olm library! :) 2021-03-04T20:12:47Z Josh_2: :) 2021-03-04T20:13:00Z Josh_2: I still need to put it to good use in my Matrix bot 2021-03-04T20:16:45Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-04T20:17:49Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-04T20:19:49Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-04T20:19:57Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-04T20:19:58Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-04T20:20:15Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-04T20:21:18Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-04T20:25:09Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-04T20:25:55Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-04T20:27:08Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-04T20:30:41Z cage_: Josh_2, sorry to bother but may i ask to provide the code to initialize the class, sorry for the lazyness 2021-03-04T20:35:18Z Josh_2: uh 2021-03-04T20:35:40Z Josh_2: It's initialized from a config file 2021-03-04T20:36:06Z Josh_2: Let me see if I can knock up an example for you 2021-03-04T20:36:47Z markasoftware: for what it's worth i just discovered that my (consify) will not work on improper lists, i will need to think about this 2021-03-04T20:37:31Z cage_: Josh_2, thak you 2021-03-04T20:37:38Z cage_: * thank 2021-03-04T20:38:08Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-04T20:38:22Z cage_: that form with (LIST 2 NIL NIL NIL) look strange to me 2021-03-04T20:38:47Z cage_: this is the form that the library can not handle properly 2021-03-04T20:39:04Z Josh_2: Oh right I see 2021-03-04T20:39:19Z actuallybatman joined #lisp 2021-03-04T20:39:37Z Josh_2: Thats probably because I specialized my class and put '(communities ..) as one of the slots, while not telling cl-marshal how to marshal a community 2021-03-04T20:39:45Z aindilis joined #lisp 2021-03-04T20:39:53Z cage_: interesting! 2021-03-04T20:40:48Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-04T20:42:01Z Josh_2: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2321#2321 2021-03-04T20:42:35Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-04T20:48:17Z cage_: Josh_2, seems you are right! 2021-03-04T20:48:43Z cage_: adding (defmethod ms:class-persistent-slots ((object community)) '(members rooms)) 2021-03-04T20:48:53Z cage_: prevent the error to be signalled 2021-03-04T20:48:57Z retropikzel joined #lisp 2021-03-04T20:49:30Z Josh_2: I see, seems like a good use case for a condition 2021-03-04T20:49:47Z cage_: Josh_2, i agree! :) 2021-03-04T20:50:10Z jasom: Thoughts on this for marshaling symbols? https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2322#2322 2021-03-04T20:50:21Z cage_: the library should signals something meanigful 2021-03-04T20:51:50Z rogersm quit 2021-03-04T20:54:12Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-04T20:55:03Z contrapunctus quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-04T20:56:59Z cage_: jasom, sorry but my knowlege of the library is a bit rusty, i think the library can already serialze/deserialze symbols so thre is some problem that your code adrress that i can not see at this moment 2021-03-04T20:57:16Z cage_: can you tell me abot the issue with symbols? 2021-03-04T20:57:20Z cage_: *about 2021-03-04T20:57:27Z jasom: cage_: right now it serializes symbols as symbols and does not generate e.g. references for gensyms 2021-03-04T20:57:33Z jeosol joined #lisp 2021-03-04T20:57:34Z cage_: ahh 2021-03-04T20:57:38Z cage_: i see 2021-03-04T20:58:56Z jasom: so two problems: 1) the SEXP->(string|bytes) must be package aware 2) the SEXP->(string|bytes) must be *print-circle* aware. 2021-03-04T20:59:59Z cage_: i think the library know about the package 2021-03-04T21:00:11Z jasom: cage_: it does for objects, not symbols 2021-03-04T21:00:20Z jasom: (ms:marshall 'foo) -> FOO 2021-03-04T21:00:23Z cage_: right! 2021-03-04T21:00:45Z cage_: i think i am starting to undertand, thanks 2021-03-04T21:00:49Z cage_: *understand 2021-03-04T21:01:43Z jasom: (let ((*package* ) (*print-circle* t) (*print-readably* t)) (print)) (and similar dynamic bindings for (read)) will work; just about any other way of stringifying the sexp is likely to have subtle bugs 2021-03-04T21:01:59Z flazh joined #lisp 2021-03-04T21:03:23Z cage_: your code to serialize symbols seems reasonably to me (but take into account i am a bit tired :-)) would you file an pull request? 2021-03-04T21:03:44Z cage_: also i really would appreciate a test :) 2021-03-04T21:04:02Z jasom: cage_: sure maybe this weekend though if you want a test too :) 2021-03-04T21:04:15Z cage_: no problem! 2021-03-04T21:04:18Z cage_: take your time 2021-03-04T21:05:28Z cage_: honestly my knowelege of CL never would allow me the problem you brougth to my attention here 2021-03-04T21:05:32Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-04T21:05:38Z cage_: so thank you! 2021-03-04T21:07:47Z cage_: interesting discussion, as usual, in this channel! 2021-03-04T21:08:08Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-04T21:09:37Z actuallybatman quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-04T21:21:33Z akoana joined #lisp 2021-03-04T21:21:45Z cage_: time to go, bye!! 2021-03-04T21:21:54Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-04T21:27:57Z sxmx quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-04T21:28:27Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-03-04T21:35:11Z warweasle quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 26.1) 2021-03-04T21:36:10Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-04T21:42:40Z sxmx joined #lisp 2021-03-04T21:46:24Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-03-04T21:54:17Z retropikzel quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-04T21:54:48Z Fade quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-04T21:54:48Z aartaka_d quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-04T21:58:24Z Fade joined #lisp 2021-03-04T22:00:29Z hineios joined #lisp 2021-03-04T22:01:18Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-04T22:04:10Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-04T22:05:18Z karlosz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-04T22:06:02Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-03-04T22:08:42Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-04T22:10:21Z lieven quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2021-03-04T22:14:25Z pve quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-04T22:18:51Z lieven joined #lisp 2021-03-04T22:31:55Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2021-03-04T22:35:57Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-04T22:39:19Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-04T22:39:36Z zupss quit 2021-03-04T22:42:57Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-04T22:45:17Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-04T22:53:37Z ech joined #lisp 2021-03-04T22:56:41Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2021-03-04T23:02:43Z pranavats quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-04T23:03:42Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-04T23:05:11Z White_Flame: hmm, cl+ssl doesn't quickload because of a non-exported symbol from usocket. This can't just be me, right? 2021-03-04T23:05:25Z White_Flame: broke in my old code when I cleared cache, as well as after the latest update-all-dists 2021-03-04T23:05:44Z White_Flame: usocket::host-to-hostname, to be specific 2021-03-04T23:07:16Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-04T23:07:28Z White_Flame: ^ Xach 2021-03-04T23:12:44Z minion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-04T23:13:06Z minion joined #lisp 2021-03-04T23:13:08Z specbot quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-03-04T23:13:11Z specbot joined #lisp 2021-03-04T23:14:14Z madnificent_ joined #lisp 2021-03-04T23:15:13Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-04T23:15:19Z gurmble joined #lisp 2021-03-04T23:15:20Z _death: usocket exports this symbol since late 2018 2021-03-04T23:15:29Z madnificent quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-04T23:15:29Z grumble quit (Quit: K-Lined) 2021-03-04T23:15:51Z gurmble is now known as grumble 2021-03-04T23:15:52Z White_Flame: yep, I just found an old usocket nested deep in some old libs directory of one of my local-projects symlinks. whee 2021-03-04T23:21:05Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-04T23:21:32Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-04T23:25:15Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1) 2021-03-04T23:25:36Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-03-04T23:28:13Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-03-04T23:32:56Z amk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-04T23:33:04Z amk joined #lisp 2021-03-04T23:34:34Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-04T23:35:53Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-03-04T23:36:33Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-04T23:36:59Z iamFIREc1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-04T23:38:39Z iamFIREc1 joined #lisp 2021-03-04T23:39:38Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-04T23:39:38Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-04T23:42:48Z kevingal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-04T23:44:14Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-03-04T23:48:10Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-04T23:50:43Z kevingal quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-04T23:52:15Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-04T23:56:08Z warweasle joined #lisp 2021-03-04T23:56:12Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-04T23:59:49Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-05T00:00:47Z Jesin joined #lisp 2021-03-05T00:02:42Z akoana left #lisp 2021-03-05T00:05:59Z nicktick joined #lisp 2021-03-05T00:07:09Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-05T00:12:48Z specbot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-05T00:13:08Z specbot joined #lisp 2021-03-05T00:13:45Z specbot quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-05T00:14:30Z loke[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-05T00:14:39Z specbot joined #lisp 2021-03-05T00:14:42Z loke[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-05T00:14:45Z minion quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-03-05T00:14:48Z minion joined #lisp 2021-03-05T00:14:51Z copec quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-05T00:14:54Z madand_ joined #lisp 2021-03-05T00:15:03Z madand quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-05T00:15:03Z Kingsy quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-05T00:15:34Z dmiles[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-05T00:15:50Z copec joined #lisp 2021-03-05T00:15:54Z quanta[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-05T00:15:54Z jdormit quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-05T00:16:17Z torbo joined #lisp 2021-03-05T00:17:01Z Kingsy joined #lisp 2021-03-05T00:19:35Z torbo: Is the runtime of the length function when called on a string in Common Lisp/SBCL (O 1) or (O n), where n is the number of characters in the string? 2021-03-05T00:20:28Z rtypo quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-05T00:20:29Z Bike: almost certainly constant time. 2021-03-05T00:21:03Z dmiles[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-05T00:21:13Z torbo: Wonderful, thank you. 2021-03-05T00:21:53Z Bike: there's no formal guarantee or anything, but every lisp implementation i know of implements strings (and arrays generally) as contiguous memory blocks like you'd expect 2021-03-05T00:23:23Z torbo: Right, I'm wondering whether the size of the contiguous memory block is something that's tracked, or does SBCL have to iterate through it until it gets to the end to find out how big it is. 2021-03-05T00:24:14Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-05T00:24:57Z jdormit joined #lisp 2021-03-05T00:25:29Z quanta[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-05T00:26:29Z Kingsy quit (Changing host) 2021-03-05T00:26:30Z Kingsy joined #lisp 2021-03-05T00:27:51Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-05T00:30:42Z louis771 quit (Quit: My M1 has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-05T00:31:44Z warweasle quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 26.1) 2021-03-05T00:33:39Z iamFIREcracker joined #lisp 2021-03-05T00:36:33Z iamFIREc1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-05T00:39:25Z torbo: A small benchmark indicates it is constant time. 2021-03-05T00:39:41Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-05T00:41:57Z ewd quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-05T00:50:37Z Bike: i mean, and the size is tracked, yes 2021-03-05T00:51:02Z Bike: technically an implementation could not do this, and instead use null termination or something, but that's pretty unlikely 2021-03-05T00:51:12Z Bike: not least because you can throw #\Nul into the middle of strings 2021-03-05T00:51:32Z pillton joined #lisp 2021-03-05T00:53:14Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-03-05T00:56:21Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-05T00:59:26Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2021-03-05T01:00:05Z torbo: Yes, thanks. 2021-03-05T01:04:33Z jonatack_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-05T01:05:35Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-03-05T01:06:23Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-05T01:07:09Z jeosol quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-05T01:07:44Z gitgood quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-05T01:08:55Z jonatack_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-05T01:17:22Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-05T01:18:16Z jeosol joined #lisp 2021-03-05T01:26:26Z wxie joined #lisp 2021-03-05T01:27:21Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-05T01:46:04Z ech quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-05T01:46:05Z loke[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-05T01:46:05Z susam quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-05T01:46:27Z kaisyu[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-05T01:47:55Z ms[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-05T01:47:56Z quanta[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-05T01:48:14Z MrtnDk[m] quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-05T01:48:18Z cloudy[m] quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-05T01:48:19Z infra_red[m] quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-05T01:48:26Z katco quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-05T01:48:26Z theothornhill[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-05T01:48:26Z deselby quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-05T01:48:27Z even4void[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-05T01:48:31Z ThaEwat quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-05T01:48:36Z ey[m] quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-05T01:48:56Z kreyren quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-05T01:49:20Z jdormit quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-05T01:49:26Z Gnuxie[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-05T01:50:03Z acolarh quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-05T01:50:12Z amk quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-05T01:50:22Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-03-05T01:50:42Z amk joined #lisp 2021-03-05T01:54:27Z niac joined #lisp 2021-03-05T01:56:37Z gitgood joined #lisp 2021-03-05T01:58:13Z Josh_2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-05T01:58:27Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2021-03-05T01:59:12Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-05T01:59:23Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-05T01:59:27Z loke[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-05T02:00:30Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-03-05T02:01:02Z acolarh joined #lisp 2021-03-05T02:03:48Z asdflkj quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-05T02:04:50Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-03-05T02:06:33Z phantomics quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2021-03-05T02:08:56Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-05T02:14:13Z Sheilong quit 2021-03-05T02:16:15Z kaisyu[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-05T02:16:30Z susam joined #lisp 2021-03-05T02:19:35Z cloudy[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-05T02:20:15Z theothornhill[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-05T02:22:07Z semz joined #lisp 2021-03-05T02:22:08Z semz quit (Changing host) 2021-03-05T02:22:08Z semz joined #lisp 2021-03-05T02:22:45Z MrtnDk[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-05T02:22:59Z jdormit joined #lisp 2021-03-05T02:25:02Z ms[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-05T02:25:41Z zaquest quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-05T02:25:52Z iamFIREcracker quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-05T02:26:20Z iamFIREcracker joined #lisp 2021-03-05T02:26:51Z ey[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-05T02:28:53Z gitgoood joined #lisp 2021-03-05T02:29:35Z deselby joined #lisp 2021-03-05T02:29:53Z kreyren joined #lisp 2021-03-05T02:29:55Z Gnuxie[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-05T02:32:05Z gitgood quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-05T02:33:07Z quanta[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-05T02:33:08Z ThaEwat joined #lisp 2021-03-05T02:34:08Z katco joined #lisp 2021-03-05T02:35:57Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-03-05T02:36:36Z even4void[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-05T02:36:38Z hineios quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-05T02:37:29Z hineios joined #lisp 2021-03-05T02:38:35Z infra_red[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-05T02:42:06Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2021-03-05T02:44:14Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-05T02:44:14Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2021-03-05T02:47:47Z Tordek joined #lisp 2021-03-05T02:48:51Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-03-05T02:56:09Z torbo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-05T02:56:55Z Tordek quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-03-05T02:57:20Z Tordek joined #lisp 2021-03-05T03:07:07Z notzmv- joined #lisp 2021-03-05T03:07:54Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-05T03:08:15Z kaiwulf joined #lisp 2021-03-05T03:13:44Z notzmv- is now known as notzmv 2021-03-05T03:16:17Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-05T03:18:00Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-05T03:18:36Z gitgoood quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-05T03:22:50Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-05T03:40:55Z DateMasamune2000 joined #lisp 2021-03-05T03:41:11Z DateMasamune2000 quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-05T03:47:31Z jasom: Technically Nul is not one of the standard characters so an implementation could fail to support embedded Nul characters 2021-03-05T03:48:16Z Bike: i didn't mention that since that makes the scenario more fanciful. also if there is a character it would have to support putting that character in a string 2021-03-05T03:52:14Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-05T03:59:12Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-05T04:02:10Z Alfr is now known as Guest17738 2021-03-05T04:02:10Z Guest17738 quit (Killed (egan.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))) 2021-03-05T04:02:14Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-03-05T04:02:56Z cartwright quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-05T04:04:30Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2021-03-05T04:04:52Z cartwright joined #lisp 2021-03-05T04:04:52Z rwcom60280385034 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-05T04:08:19Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2021-03-05T04:20:56Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-05T04:21:15Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-05T04:21:26Z easye: Mornin' Beach. How's the ELS submission coming? 2021-03-05T04:22:24Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-05T04:22:38Z Bike quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-05T04:22:44Z beach: Fine. It's almost done I think. 2021-03-05T04:22:50Z easye: Great! 2021-03-05T04:24:04Z beach: http://metamodular.com/SICL/call-site-optimization.pdf 2021-03-05T04:24:09Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-05T04:24:21Z beach: ... in case someone is interested. 2021-03-05T04:24:36Z beach: easye: What are you working on these days? 2021-03-05T04:24:53Z easye: Unfortunately (?) just "work": Ravenpack. 2021-03-05T04:25:16Z easye: Right now I'm mucking around with getting JSOWN to output UTF-8 characters. 2021-03-05T04:25:37Z beach: Well, Ravenpack is better than most I would think. 2021-03-05T04:26:12Z easye: ABCL could really use a release that optimizes loading times: the new implementation of loading things in abcl-1.8.0 slowed things down by a factor of 2x-3x. 2021-03-05T04:26:31Z easye: I am very happy to writing Common Lisp for Ravenpack. 2021-03-05T04:26:41Z beach: Sure. 2021-03-05T04:26:58Z easye: And can one really call it "work" if it is for a CL shop? 2021-03-05T04:27:55Z beach: If not, I can't say I have "worked" much at all, ever. 2021-03-05T04:28:17Z beach: So I would call it "work". 2021-03-05T04:28:25Z easye: Oh, you "work" harder than most from what I can tell... 2021-03-05T04:28:49Z edgar-rft: if you don't call it work then you won't get paid I assume 2021-03-05T04:29:00Z beach: easye: Thanks (I guess). 2021-03-05T04:29:19Z easye: edgar-rft: I suppose that is one valorization of "work". 2021-03-05T04:29:41Z easye: beach: it was meant as a straight-ahead, non ironic, compliment 2021-03-05T04:30:54Z beach: easye: Yes, I know. I just don't know whether it is good to work a lot (and not get much done) or work less (for the same amount of work). 2021-03-05T04:31:28Z easye: The steady tortoise beats the lazy hare. 2021-03-05T04:32:12Z easye: I think plugging away some fixed amount every workday is the right approach. 2021-03-05T04:32:24Z beach: In the past I often had students who complained about mediocre grades on some homework, saying they put in a lot of work. But I told them, it's the result that counts, not how tired you are. 2021-03-05T04:45:15Z easye: Hmm, school. Kinda different from "work" for me, but it was so long ago. 2021-03-05T04:48:55Z xristos_ is now known as xristos 2021-03-05T04:48:57Z xristos quit (Changing host) 2021-03-05T04:48:57Z xristos joined #lisp 2021-03-05T05:04:59Z rozenglass quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-05T05:09:03Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-05T05:11:11Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2021-03-05T05:13:23Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-05T05:13:24Z fitzsim quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-05T05:14:21Z kaiwulf quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-05T05:14:41Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-03-05T05:23:19Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-05T05:26:44Z wxie joined #lisp 2021-03-05T05:30:27Z jrm quit (Quit: ciao) 2021-03-05T05:30:43Z jrm joined #lisp 2021-03-05T05:51:08Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-05T05:58:32Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-05T06:02:57Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-05T06:05:10Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-05T06:21:54Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-03-05T06:24:52Z sauvin joined #lisp 2021-03-05T07:05:37Z maier joined #lisp 2021-03-05T07:05:50Z yonkunas quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-05T07:05:59Z maier quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-05T07:06:12Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-03-05T07:06:38Z maier joined #lisp 2021-03-05T07:08:24Z perrier-jouet quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-05T07:10:35Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-05T07:15:08Z pve joined #lisp 2021-03-05T07:19:08Z surabax joined #lisp 2021-03-05T07:20:26Z MadestMadness_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-05T07:24:01Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-03-05T07:27:34Z FennecCode joined #lisp 2021-03-05T07:28:00Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-05T07:28:01Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-05T07:28:17Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-05T07:29:23Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-03-05T07:29:24Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2021-03-05T07:29:24Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-03-05T07:31:51Z pillton quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-03-05T07:35:46Z scymtym quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-05T07:37:45Z elflng quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-05T07:41:34Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2021-03-05T07:41:39Z CrazyEddy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-05T07:42:34Z White_Flame: so when using ql libs that pull in .so/.dynlib, are there tools or best practices on how to get an actual executable that doesn't die on startup on another machine without a bunch of stuff natively installed? 2021-03-05T07:43:01Z White_Flame: zlib and openssl seem to be major culprits here, by way of a webserver 2021-03-05T07:43:29Z zupss joined #lisp 2021-03-05T07:44:42Z White_Flame: https://pastebin.com/N1exbmQ8 2021-03-05T07:47:36Z White_Flame: but who knows what else might be lurking 2021-03-05T07:48:04Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-05T07:48:15Z thonkpod_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-05T07:48:44Z thonkpod_ joined #lisp 2021-03-05T07:50:39Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-05T07:56:47Z Papillon joined #lisp 2021-03-05T08:01:36Z moon-child: White_Flame: bundle all the libs you need. You should be able to use strace (or similar) to see everything that gets loaded 2021-03-05T08:03:12Z White_Flame: as I've not done this before, is it common across OSes to search for dynamic libraries in the executable's directory? 2021-03-05T08:04:20Z moon-child: no. Windows does it, other OSes do not 2021-03-05T08:04:23Z moon-child: you need to set LD_LIBRARY_PATH 2021-03-05T08:04:37Z moon-child: (or possible you can set rpath in the executable) 2021-03-05T08:04:59Z White_Flame: LD_LIBRARY_PATH is used on OSX as well? 2021-03-05T08:05:36Z moon-child: DYLD_LIBRARY_PATH there I think 2021-03-05T08:06:28Z White_Flame: thanks, will do some fiddling 2021-03-05T08:06:29Z casual_friday_ joined #lisp 2021-03-05T08:06:33Z casual_friday quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-05T08:07:28Z Papillon quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-05T08:07:36Z moon-child: also if you put the libs in a separate dir from the executable (which is imo cleaner), the variable to set on windows is PATH 2021-03-05T08:09:39Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-03-05T08:24:05Z kreyren quit (Changing host) 2021-03-05T08:24:05Z kreyren joined #lisp 2021-03-05T08:24:05Z kreyren quit (Changing host) 2021-03-05T08:24:05Z kreyren joined #lisp 2021-03-05T08:27:45Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-05T08:28:01Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-05T08:28:17Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-05T08:32:07Z scoofy quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-05T08:32:28Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-05T08:32:39Z heisig joined #lisp 2021-03-05T08:33:08Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-03-05T08:42:11Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-05T08:43:28Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-05T08:44:17Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-03-05T08:45:13Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-05T08:52:25Z Necktwi quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-05T08:54:26Z Necktwi joined #lisp 2021-03-05T08:55:15Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-03-05T09:03:28Z scoofy joined #lisp 2021-03-05T09:06:09Z paulj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-05T09:07:58Z Necktwi quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-05T09:08:09Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-03-05T09:10:41Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-05T09:15:21Z pranavats joined #lisp 2021-03-05T09:15:39Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-05T09:16:10Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-05T09:23:21Z kam1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-05T09:25:30Z jonatack_ quit (Quit: jonatack_) 2021-03-05T09:25:49Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-05T09:32:35Z harlchen[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-05T09:39:46Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-05T09:40:26Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-03-05T09:50:04Z Juonu joined #lisp 2021-03-05T09:51:30Z scymtym joined #lisp 2021-03-05T09:53:30Z scymtym quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-05T09:53:46Z scymtym joined #lisp 2021-03-05T09:58:28Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-03-05T10:04:29Z Cymew joined #lisp 2021-03-05T10:05:09Z elflng joined #lisp 2021-03-05T10:07:25Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-05T10:10:26Z v3ga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-05T10:10:52Z v3ga joined #lisp 2021-03-05T10:13:15Z madage joined #lisp 2021-03-05T10:48:45Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-05T10:49:12Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-05T10:52:08Z VincentVega joined #lisp 2021-03-05T10:56:55Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-05T11:00:06Z vegansbane6963 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-03-05T11:11:43Z niac quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-05T11:17:46Z Sheilong joined #lisp 2021-03-05T11:20:06Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-05T11:20:28Z perrier-jouet joined #lisp 2021-03-05T11:20:31Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-05T11:21:37Z rtypo joined #lisp 2021-03-05T11:28:02Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-05T11:29:07Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-03-05T11:32:02Z VincentVega quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-05T11:40:48Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2021-03-05T11:43:57Z ech joined #lisp 2021-03-05T11:45:41Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-03-05T11:47:54Z narimiran quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-05T11:56:45Z rozenglass joined #lisp 2021-03-05T11:59:33Z jprajzne quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-05T12:05:08Z sm2n quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-05T12:05:32Z jeosol quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-05T12:07:59Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-05T12:12:18Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-05T12:15:06Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2021-03-05T12:19:17Z sm2n joined #lisp 2021-03-05T12:21:11Z niac joined #lisp 2021-03-05T12:21:51Z sm2n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-05T12:23:27Z sm2n joined #lisp 2021-03-05T12:24:15Z Feldman quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2021-03-05T12:29:52Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-05T12:35:00Z asdflkj joined #lisp 2021-03-05T12:35:10Z rtypo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-05T12:37:50Z hendursa1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-05T12:38:37Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-03-05T12:40:51Z niac quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-05T12:41:08Z niac joined #lisp 2021-03-05T12:42:57Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-03-05T12:44:03Z iskander- joined #lisp 2021-03-05T12:44:35Z iskander- quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-05T12:44:54Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-05T12:47:05Z gitgood joined #lisp 2021-03-05T12:47:13Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-03-05T13:06:27Z theruran quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-05T13:08:07Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-05T13:13:27Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-05T13:15:09Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-05T13:18:40Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-05T13:19:31Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-05T13:22:58Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-05T13:26:04Z xantoz joined #lisp 2021-03-05T13:26:05Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-05T13:26:10Z gitgood quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-05T13:26:43Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-03-05T13:31:16Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-05T13:36:03Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-03-05T13:48:02Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-05T13:48:48Z iamFIREcracker quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-05T13:53:10Z jeosol joined #lisp 2021-03-05T13:53:54Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-03-05T13:59:36Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-05T14:00:34Z iamFIREcracker joined #lisp 2021-03-05T14:04:40Z yonkunas joined #lisp 2021-03-05T14:07:13Z theruran joined #lisp 2021-03-05T14:09:02Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-05T14:13:01Z warweasle joined #lisp 2021-03-05T14:16:04Z mrchampion quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-05T14:22:39Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2021-03-05T14:24:30Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone) 2021-03-05T14:24:38Z gitgood joined #lisp 2021-03-05T14:28:10Z rtypo joined #lisp 2021-03-05T14:30:54Z mrchampion joined #lisp 2021-03-05T14:33:55Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-03-05T14:35:17Z Noisytoot joined #lisp 2021-03-05T14:35:26Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-05T14:36:56Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2021-03-05T14:41:14Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-05T14:43:59Z gitgood quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-05T14:46:59Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-05T14:48:13Z gitgood joined #lisp 2021-03-05T14:48:34Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2021-03-05T14:55:20Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2021-03-05T14:56:50Z Necktwi joined #lisp 2021-03-05T15:00:33Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone) 2021-03-05T15:03:33Z sjl joined #lisp 2021-03-05T15:07:22Z hiroaki_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-05T15:08:00Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-05T15:17:24Z caret joined #lisp 2021-03-05T15:17:36Z totoro2021 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-05T15:19:03Z totoro2021 joined #lisp 2021-03-05T15:20:10Z hiroaki_ joined #lisp 2021-03-05T15:21:01Z fitzsim joined #lisp 2021-03-05T15:21:02Z fitzsim quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-05T15:21:29Z fitzsim joined #lisp 2021-03-05T15:21:49Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-05T15:23:28Z maier quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-05T15:25:07Z niac quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-05T15:26:16Z Josh_2: Afternoon 2021-03-05T15:28:53Z gitgoood joined #lisp 2021-03-05T15:28:53Z warweasle: Josh_2: Morn'n. 2021-03-05T15:29:20Z Josh_2: Whats the go to way to update already dumped lisp images? Do you normally just tell users there is a new version and get them to swap them out? Surely they could just update their running image? 2021-03-05T15:31:40Z gitgood quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-05T15:32:38Z Josh_2: I dont want to tell a user that they have to keep changing out their lisp image, I'd rather they just ran a script and it updated itself while running, I'm sure someone has done this before 2021-03-05T15:34:15Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-03-05T15:36:02Z etimmons: Josh_2: I don't know of any way to switch images while running. But if you distributed fasls you could load those into a running image to "patch" it. 2021-03-05T15:36:09Z _death: some system definition facilities have rudimentary support in terms of "patches" 2021-03-05T15:36:39Z Josh_2: sorry I wasn't clear enough, I don't mean swap images, thats equivalent to just getting and starting a new binary 2021-03-05T15:36:46Z Josh_2: thats what I'm trying to avoid 2021-03-05T15:37:20Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-05T15:37:37Z Nilby: Updating from code is fairly easy, but can have problems. Most Lisp's can't update the image and keep running said code. 2021-03-05T15:37:56Z Josh_2: Right, main loops etc would have to be restarted 2021-03-05T15:38:17Z phoe: if you need to replace those main loops, that is 2021-03-05T15:38:29Z Josh_2: Ofcourse 2021-03-05T15:38:34Z phoe: most of the time you don't 2021-03-05T15:38:34Z Nilby: I used to update my running web app all time, but from code not the image. 2021-03-05T15:38:49Z etimmons: White_Flame: If you're going to distribute a MacOS binary that depends on libssl, I'd recommend using the OS provided libs instead of the ones from Homebrew. 2021-03-05T15:38:56Z phoe: you could also architect your image in a way that allows it to check for updates before running everything 2021-03-05T15:39:16Z Josh_2: Nilby: yes thats what I mean 2021-03-05T15:39:30Z etimmons: White_Flame: IIRC, Homebrew's openssl doesn't integrate with the system keychain to get certificates and such. 2021-03-05T15:39:32Z phoe: s/everything/the main loop/ 2021-03-05T15:39:59Z phoe: etimmons: AFAIK libcrypto.dylib fails on modern macos/apple silicon because it has an unversioned API and Apple decided to make this a breaking change 2021-03-05T15:40:00Z Josh_2: phoe: that could work because the program is user facing and could just receive a command to update which would stop and restart it 2021-03-05T15:40:07Z Nilby: I would just reload with asdf, and the next time it got a request it would run the new code. 2021-03-05T15:40:13Z phoe: etimmons: see https://github.com/cl-plus-ssl/cl-plus-ssl/issues/114 2021-03-05T15:40:20Z phoe: Josh_2: sure, that would work 2021-03-05T15:40:22Z White_Flame: etimmons: I only pulled libs from quicklisp 2021-03-05T15:40:55Z White_Flame: hmm, actually, I need to confirm that. This isn't my box 2021-03-05T15:41:10Z Josh_2: I also want to be able to hotload code straight into my running image, so that modules can be added/removed from my project as the user chooses 2021-03-05T15:41:18Z Josh_2: I guess that this can be done by distributing fasls? 2021-03-05T15:41:31Z phoe: Josh_2: yes 2021-03-05T15:41:55Z etimmons: phoe: There's a patch to fix it in https://github.com/cl-plus-ssl/cl-plus-ssl/pull/115. You can also work around it until the PR is merged by loading the versioned dylib yourself and pushing :cl+ssl-foreign-libs-already-loaded to *features* 2021-03-05T15:41:58Z Josh_2: Okay cool beans. I've know very little about fasls files, I guess It's time to change that 2021-03-05T15:42:38Z nicktick joined #lisp 2021-03-05T15:42:44Z phoe: etimmons: thanks, TIL! 2021-03-05T15:43:01Z madand_ quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-05T15:43:18Z etimmons: White_Flame: your pastebin has /usr/local/opt/openssl/lib/libcrypto.dylib as the path it's trying to load. I think that's the Homebrew path 2021-03-05T15:44:18Z White_Flame: hmm, so at startup sbcl doesn't search the library path for dylibs, but rather just hits the exact same path that was used when the image was saved? 2021-03-05T15:44:29Z White_Flame: *exact same pathname 2021-03-05T15:44:36Z etimmons: Nothing wrong with that per se, but if you're going to share it with people that don't have Homebrew installed, I think they'll have a not-so-great time when that lib looks for trusted certs where Homebrew installs them 2021-03-05T15:44:43Z madand joined #lisp 2021-03-05T15:44:58Z etimmons: Not quite 2021-03-05T15:45:18Z etimmons: SBCL remembers the string that was used to load the lib 2021-03-05T15:45:18Z White_Flame: right, it should do the "right thing" 2021-03-05T15:46:12Z White_Flame: so i wonder where all that resolution happens 2021-03-05T15:46:12Z etimmons: So if you load the foreign lib "libssl.so" then it'll search again on startup. But if you give an absolute path, it'll try using that path exactly 2021-03-05T15:46:26Z White_Flame: I don't give any paths. This is just ql library usage 2021-03-05T15:46:40Z White_Flame: so whatever cl+ssl or whichever dependency is loading that determines how the load happens 2021-03-05T15:46:46Z etimmons: Of course, you could tweak that on dump by modifying SBCL's list of foreign libs 2021-03-05T15:47:27Z etimmons: cl+ssl uses many hardcoded paths on Darwin: https://github.com/cl-plus-ssl/cl-plus-ssl/blob/master/src/reload.lisp#L44 2021-03-05T15:47:44Z etimmons: s/paths/absolute paths/ 2021-03-05T15:48:21Z White_Flame: yikes 2021-03-05T15:49:17Z White_Flame: but yeah, this isn't the first time that macos is insufficient in its defaults 2021-03-05T15:49:56Z etimmons: If you want more control over which is used, look at my message to phoe about loading the dylib manually 2021-03-05T15:50:05Z marcoxa joined #lisp 2021-03-05T15:50:44Z White_Flame: yep 2021-03-05T15:54:09Z White_Flame: thanks, this info helps a lot 2021-03-05T15:58:39Z etimmons: No worries! libssl is always a bit of a difficult library due to potential integration with OS keychains and such 2021-03-05T15:59:09Z theBlackDragon quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-05T15:59:12Z etimmons: Another solution for other libraries is to statically link them into the runtime (assuming you have static libraries and the license allows such a thing) 2021-03-05T16:00:27Z White_Flame: yeah, I wish that was more the norm 2021-03-05T16:00:31Z etimmons: I do that quite frequently with SBCL on Linux. I assume it's not much more challenging on MacOS 2021-03-05T16:01:03Z White_Flame: however, as you bring up the user's keychain issue, that certainly is intimately tied to what's going on in the deployed OS, and not just carried-along algos 2021-03-05T16:01:34Z White_Flame: *deployment machine's OS 2021-03-05T16:01:50Z etimmons: yep 2021-03-05T16:04:02Z White_Flame: hmm, as this is basically a localhost-only application, I probably should be looking to see if clack et al can be built without https dependencies instead 2021-03-05T16:04:58Z lisp-machine joined #lisp 2021-03-05T16:05:54Z etimmons: Are you using Hunchentoot as the underlying webserver? If so, push :hunchentoot-no-ssl to features before loading it. 2021-03-05T16:06:38Z marcoxa: bye guys 2021-03-05T16:06:52Z marcoxa quit (Quit: Train to catch) 2021-03-05T16:07:17Z theBlackDragon joined #lisp 2021-03-05T16:09:30Z gitgoood quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-05T16:10:27Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-05T16:12:08Z tinhatcat joined #lisp 2021-03-05T16:19:23Z White_Flame: etimmons: yep, that's it 2021-03-05T16:21:09Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-03-05T16:30:58Z ech quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-05T16:36:13Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-03-05T16:37:36Z ech joined #lisp 2021-03-05T16:37:51Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-05T16:45:02Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-05T16:51:49Z heisig quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-05T16:55:48Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-05T16:55:48Z engblom quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-05T16:56:10Z engblom joined #lisp 2021-03-05T16:56:46Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2021-03-05T17:00:23Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-03-05T17:04:02Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-05T17:05:40Z Xach: fun fact: i have had some weird errors when doing that, and the root cause was that different *features* contexts still used the same cached fasl 2021-03-05T17:05:53Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-05T17:06:06Z Oddity- joined #lisp 2021-03-05T17:09:02Z villanella quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-05T17:10:14Z Oddity quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-05T17:13:09Z gitgood joined #lisp 2021-03-05T17:13:13Z iskander- joined #lisp 2021-03-05T17:13:58Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-05T17:17:25Z srandon111 joined #lisp 2021-03-05T17:21:34Z iekfkk joined #lisp 2021-03-05T17:22:19Z iekfkk: t and nil,() is like t and f, so when a func returns its binary value t and f 2021-03-05T17:22:31Z lisp-machine quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-05T17:22:42Z iekfkk: so confusion between f and nil 2021-03-05T17:22:57Z iekfkk: ?? 2021-03-05T17:23:14Z White_Flame: Xach: a make.sh that does rm -rf ~/.cache/common-lisp covers a great many compile-time sins :-P 2021-03-05T17:23:34Z beach: iekfkk: There is no such thing as f. 2021-03-05T17:23:50Z iekfkk: yup lisp is beauty 2021-03-05T17:23:55Z White_Flame: iekfkk: there is NIL and non-NIL as the boolean values in CL 2021-03-05T17:27:32Z beach: iekfkk: What is it that you are confused about? 2021-03-05T17:28:04Z frgo quit 2021-03-05T17:29:05Z iekfkk: returns r binary unlike python,ruby t,f,nil 2021-03-05T17:29:50Z iekfkk: (if non-nil 3 4) err 2021-03-05T17:29:51Z beach: iekfkk: It is quite hard to understand what you are trying to say. 2021-03-05T17:30:21Z White_Flame: (if nil 3 4) => 4 2021-03-05T17:30:29Z iekfkk: function returns r trinary in python- t,f,nil 2021-03-05T17:30:31Z White_Flame: (if 'anything-else 3 4) => 3 2021-03-05T17:30:58Z iekfkk: White_Flame: u said non-nil i was surprised for a sec 2021-03-05T17:31:55Z White_Flame: well, that is the definition. It's sort of like C where anything non-zero is true, and zero is false (might not be correct to the C standard, but that's what's functionally done) 2021-03-05T17:32:15Z White_Flame: only false is defined. everything else is true 2021-03-05T17:32:18Z iekfkk: is nil same as () for function returns 2021-03-05T17:32:33Z White_Flame: nil is the same as () always 2021-03-05T17:32:39Z beach: iekfkk: The reader turns () into NIL. 2021-03-05T17:32:45Z White_Flame: they're 2 different names for the same object in memory 2021-03-05T17:33:28Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2021-03-05T17:36:35Z phantomics joined #lisp 2021-03-05T17:39:19Z iekfkk: can i previous line scroll in sbcl C-p uparrow don't complete history 2021-03-05T17:39:19Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-05T17:39:36Z beach: iekfkk: Most people use SLIME. 2021-03-05T17:40:12Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-03-05T17:40:24Z White_Flame: afair, readline isn't used at the plain terminal due to licensing incompatibilities 2021-03-05T17:41:57Z iskander- quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-05T17:52:27Z waleee-cl joined #lisp 2021-03-05T17:53:42Z jasom: iekfkk: even if you don't use emacs as your editor, it's good to use SLIME as your REPL. I developed lisp that way for many years. 2021-03-05T17:55:12Z iskander- joined #lisp 2021-03-05T17:55:35Z iekfkk: kk 2021-03-05T17:57:38Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-05T17:58:53Z _death: there was also that rlwrap hack, if you insist 2021-03-05T18:07:49Z caret quit (Quit: Bye Felicia) 2021-03-05T18:08:49Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-05T18:13:17Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-03-05T18:13:27Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-05T18:13:58Z iskander- quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-05T18:29:22Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-05T18:33:33Z iekfkk: (defvar t 3) doesn't work 2021-03-05T18:33:56Z iekfkk: it seems t is reserved for true... so it can't be defined , is it? 2021-03-05T18:34:00Z jasom: iekfkk: "t" is the true value, redefining it isn't allowed. 2021-03-05T18:34:15Z iekfkk: but t is a very "generic" variable name like x 2021-03-05T18:34:46Z jasom: iekfkk: it's also idiomatic to define dynamic variables (similar to globals in other languages) with asterisks on the side *like-this* 2021-03-05T18:35:00Z jasom: and (defvar *t* 3) certainly works 2021-03-05T18:35:31Z iekfkk: what about inside function is t is local 2021-03-05T18:36:22Z iekfkk: so we can't use *t* in func 2021-03-05T18:36:49Z White_Flame: for LET, function parameters, etc, you can't use T either as a local variable name 2021-03-05T18:36:52Z jasom: iekfkk: there's 25 other letters you can use 2021-03-05T18:37:09Z White_Flame: or be more descriptive in your names 2021-03-05T18:37:22Z jasom: it's mildly annoying when writing parametric functinos where t is conventionally used, but otherwise not a big deal 2021-03-05T18:38:09Z White_Flame: collide neutrinos to create functinos 2021-03-05T18:38:18Z White_Flame: (I make that typo all the time, too :) ) 2021-03-05T18:39:08Z iekfkk: why t is used in parametric functions? 2021-03-05T18:39:19Z jasom: iekfkk: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parametric_equation 2021-03-05T18:39:49Z jasom: iekfkk: according to wikipedia it comes from kinematics where the equations are parameterized on time 2021-03-05T18:40:11Z iekfkk: ahh math ok of course math was what i was thinking especially matrix A,B vs a,b small letters CL doesn't differentiate 2021-03-05T18:40:25Z _death: you can use t.. more specifically, temperature:t, time:t, temporary:t, etc. 2021-03-05T18:40:57Z ewd joined #lisp 2021-03-05T18:40:59Z White_Flame: yeah, if you manually shadow cl:t (or don't :use cl) 2021-03-05T18:41:03Z jasom: _death: right but for math it often is just "people use t in this equation and it only stands for an abstract value" that's the only time I'm ever bothered by not having t available 2021-03-05T18:41:46Z jasom: and even then it hasn't bothered me enough to shadow cl:t so obviously not that big a deal 2021-03-05T18:41:55Z scymtym joined #lisp 2021-03-05T18:41:58Z _death: jasom: luckily we programmers learned to put more effort into names :) 2021-03-05T18:42:34Z iekfkk: hey (defvar c:x 2) err 2021-03-05T18:42:36Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-05T18:43:17Z iekfkk: they fooled me saying vars can use any character in their names 2021-03-05T18:43:37Z jasom: iekfkk: ":" is the package separator if you want to have a variable that contains ":" in the name you need to quote it e.g. |C:X| or c\:x 2021-03-05T18:44:33Z White_Flame greps for "stupid" in his codebase and gets hundreds of lines of very ... verbosely named variable names & functions 2021-03-05T18:44:44Z _death: c|:|x could also work ;) 2021-03-05T18:44:47Z jasom: iekfkk: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/02_ac.htm 2021-03-05T18:45:00Z jasom: oops wrong link 2021-03-05T18:45:03Z jasom: clhs 2.1.4 2021-03-05T18:45:03Z specbot: Character Syntax Types: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_ad.htm 2021-03-05T18:45:07Z jasom: ^^ that's the right one 2021-03-05T18:45:38Z jasom: anything that's a "terminating macro char" can't be used unquoted as part of a symbol (and therefore as a variable name) 2021-03-05T18:46:18Z jasom: anything that's a "non-terminating macro char" (i.e. just #) cannot be used unqouted at the begining of a token 2021-03-05T18:46:51Z jasom: so foo#bar is okay but not #foobar 2021-03-05T18:48:01Z jasom: clhs 2.3.5 2021-03-05T18:48:01Z specbot: Valid Patterns for Tokens: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_ce.htm 2021-03-05T18:48:15Z _jrjsmrtn joined #lisp 2021-03-05T18:48:34Z jasom: And that one explains why c:x doesn't work. It looks for "X" in the "C" package. 2021-03-05T18:48:40Z peasynt quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-03-05T18:50:22Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-05T18:52:19Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-03-05T18:54:35Z iekfkk: whats shadow cl:t mean 2021-03-05T18:54:54Z iekfkk: i gueess cl is a pkg and t is true 2021-03-05T18:55:05Z iekfkk: and t is aliased to cl:t 2021-03-05T18:55:13Z iekfkk: smart guess 2021-03-05T18:55:52Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-03-05T18:55:52Z jasom: iekfkk: yesl when I said you can't use "T" as a variable name, I actually lied. variables are named by symbols, not strings. COMMON-LISP:T is not allowed, but MY-PACKAGE:T *is* allowed. When you import most symbols from another package, but exclude a few, that's called "shadowing" 2021-03-05T18:56:23Z jasom: and "CL" is an alias (called a nickname) for the COMMON-LISP package. 2021-03-05T18:56:24Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-05T18:57:42Z jasom: that being said, be kind to anybody who might read your code down the line, and don't shadow T. It will only confuse them. 2021-03-05T18:58:33Z iekfkk: it'd be smart to have T for true instead and case-sensitiveness 2021-03-05T18:59:35Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-05T19:00:28Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-05T19:00:30Z jprajzne quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-05T19:01:31Z jasom: you can use readtables to get case-sensitivity, but that is rarely used, and when I've seen it used usually case is inverted so "t" would be true and "T" would be free for use. If you do case preserving rather than case inverting your code looks like (DEFUN foo (bar baz &REST r) (LET (b) (CAR baz))) 2021-03-05T19:07:40Z White_Flame: iekfkk: also, #clschool is another channel that focuses on beginner answers. Complete answers are normally found here :) 2021-03-05T19:13:35Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-03-05T19:20:35Z sauvin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-05T19:22:29Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2021-03-05T19:22:39Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-05T19:24:43Z iekfkk quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-05T19:29:48Z akoana joined #lisp 2021-03-05T19:32:36Z maier joined #lisp 2021-03-05T19:36:06Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-05T19:38:39Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-05T19:39:14Z luni quit (Changing host) 2021-03-05T19:39:14Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-05T19:45:11Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-03-05T19:48:34Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-05T19:48:47Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-03-05T19:56:26Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-05T19:57:05Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-03-05T19:57:10Z villanella quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-05T20:02:25Z maier quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-05T20:02:48Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-05T20:03:20Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-03-05T20:03:50Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2021-03-05T20:08:11Z Cymew quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2021-03-05T20:12:33Z louis771 quit (Quit: My M1 has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-05T20:15:24Z asdflkj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-05T20:17:40Z asdflkj joined #lisp 2021-03-05T20:19:06Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-03-05T20:24:09Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-05T20:26:04Z shka_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2021-03-05T20:26:37Z jmercouris: is there some other way to get the second value other than (nth-value 1 ...)? 2021-03-05T20:26:46Z jmercouris: like something like (second-value ...) 2021-03-05T20:30:19Z mfiano: (multiple-value-bind (first-value second-value) values (declare (ignore first-value)) second-value) 2021-03-05T20:30:24Z louis771 quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2021-03-05T20:31:14Z jmercouris: Yeah, I know that 2021-03-05T20:31:22Z jmercouris: I'm looking for something like (second ..) 2021-03-05T20:31:25Z jmercouris: something very concise 2021-03-05T20:31:31Z mfiano: Then you'll have to write it 2021-03-05T20:31:35Z jmercouris: OK, thanks 2021-03-05T20:31:47Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2021-03-05T20:47:12Z jonatack_ quit (Quit: jonatack_) 2021-03-05T20:47:19Z White_Flame: (second (multiple-value-list (func....))) appears to be non-consing in sbcl when optimizations are cranked 2021-03-05T20:47:35Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-05T20:51:06Z White_Flame: but it does generate over a hundred bytes of asm 2021-03-05T20:51:47Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-05T20:52:36Z White_Flame: oops, nevermind, there's the call to LIST ;) 2021-03-05T20:57:15Z hiroaki_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-05T20:57:38Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-05T20:59:15Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-03-05T21:00:55Z hiroaki_ joined #lisp 2021-03-05T21:04:51Z warweasle quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 26.1) 2021-03-05T21:04:59Z casual_friday joined #lisp 2021-03-05T21:05:12Z casual_friday_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-05T21:05:45Z hiroaki_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-05T21:08:08Z galex-713 quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-03-05T21:13:06Z ewd quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-05T21:13:48Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-05T21:15:01Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-03-05T21:15:02Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-05T21:17:50Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-03-05T21:17:50Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2021-03-05T21:17:50Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-03-05T21:18:03Z hiroaki_ joined #lisp 2021-03-05T21:20:20Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2021-03-05T21:24:08Z iskander quit (Quit: bye) 2021-03-05T21:26:40Z matryoshka` joined #lisp 2021-03-05T21:26:42Z matryoshka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-05T21:28:04Z VincentVega joined #lisp 2021-03-05T21:33:38Z VincentVega: Do compilers optimize away asserts on low safety levels? Or under some other conditions? I am thinking of replacing an assert with a when + error, because I want to signal a specific condition and not just simple-error, but it's in a somewhat intense place, so I am a bit unsure if I should do that. Tips? 2021-03-05T21:35:13Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-05T21:36:20Z davisr joined #lisp 2021-03-05T21:37:55Z _death: (i) assert is not optimized away (ii) you can give assert a condition to signal 2021-03-05T21:38:55Z Alfr: Maybe if the compiler can prove that it's always true, but otherwise it need to be checked. 2021-03-05T21:39:03Z Alfr: *needs 2021-03-05T21:39:18Z White_Flame: you can always make your own compile-time decision whether or not to include checks with macros 2021-03-05T21:39:40Z Alfr: Oh ... and it has to be side-effect free. 2021-03-05T21:40:01Z Alfr: It's assert not check-type, got a bit confused there. 2021-03-05T21:40:09Z White_Flame: I've made a bunch of this sort of thing where the flag can be compile-time off, runtime selectable, and depending on the flag's value per-situation checked 2021-03-05T21:42:04Z VincentVega: _death: gee, skimmed the page for it 3 times, only now I see that it's datum, thanks! 2021-03-05T21:42:17Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-03-05T21:42:26Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-05T21:43:23Z iskander quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-05T21:43:27Z jeosol quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-05T21:43:56Z VincentVega: White_Flame: Yeah, I see, writing my own macros works too! 2021-03-05T21:45:22Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-03-05T21:48:50Z VincentVega: White_Flame: where do you keep the flag and how do you set it? 2021-03-05T21:49:07Z VincentVega: *flags 2021-03-05T21:49:20Z White_Flame: often in a sb-ext:defglobal 2021-03-05T21:49:25Z White_Flame: defvar if not available 2021-03-05T21:50:05Z White_Flame: set it from the repl before recompilation to change between compile-time & runtime 2021-03-05T21:50:16Z White_Flame: set it anytime to enable/disable runtime options if that's compiled in 2021-03-05T21:51:06Z VincentVega: Gotcha. Was hoping for maybe some sort of an asdf-level thing on system-load, but I guess this works too. 2021-03-05T21:52:09Z White_Flame: I've built way too many things to count, that ended up already being in, or eventually created in, asdf or alexandria :-P 2021-03-05T21:53:09Z White_Flame: but yeah, for this sort of thing we tend to have tons of debug tests that are either too huge on the logs to be readable, or too heavy on inner loops to keep on all the time, so flexibility is nice 2021-03-05T21:54:03Z VincentVega: Sure. Thanks for sharing btw : ) 2021-03-05T21:54:36Z White_Flame: np 2021-03-05T21:54:52Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-05T21:55:22Z kevingal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-05T21:56:04Z phoe: _death: "you can give assert a condition to signal" an actual condition? isn't it just an error with a customizable report? 2021-03-05T21:58:53Z gitgoood joined #lisp 2021-03-05T22:01:41Z gitgood quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-05T22:02:12Z phoe: seems like it is; the spec mentions an error of type ERROR 2021-03-05T22:04:02Z aartaka_d quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-05T22:04:20Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-05T22:09:13Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-05T22:11:27Z _death: clhs 9.1.2.1 2021-03-05T22:11:27Z specbot: Condition Designators: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/09_aba.htm 2021-03-05T22:16:37Z Lord_of_Life quit (Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine) 2021-03-05T22:17:01Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2021-03-05T22:17:02Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-05T22:17:14Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-05T22:17:14Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-05T22:17:36Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-05T22:19:34Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-05T22:19:51Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-05T22:24:46Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-05T22:25:34Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-05T22:26:15Z matryoshka` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-05T22:27:15Z kaiwulf joined #lisp 2021-03-05T22:27:31Z phoe: ! 2021-03-05T22:28:10Z White_Flame: I think you mean p? #scheme is that way -> 2021-03-05T22:28:30Z phoe: yes, I am in the wrong 2021-03-05T22:28:39Z phoe: (assert ... () 'type-error :datum 42 :expected-type 'string) works as intended 2021-03-05T22:28:40Z White_Flame: (argh, ?, not !) 2021-03-05T22:29:33Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-03-05T22:30:44Z mfiano: Actually, the Norvig/Pitman LUV slides recommend using ?/! if you are to be consistent in your naming. 2021-03-05T22:42:16Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-05T22:44:47Z iskander quit (Quit: bye) 2021-03-05T22:49:53Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-03-05T22:53:17Z hiroaki_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-05T22:58:13Z matryoshka joined #lisp 2021-03-05T23:04:48Z hiroaki_ joined #lisp 2021-03-05T23:08:53Z akoana quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-05T23:09:39Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-05T23:10:23Z hiroaki_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-05T23:11:55Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-03-05T23:14:16Z hiroaki1 joined #lisp 2021-03-05T23:17:24Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-05T23:24:38Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-05T23:30:49Z hiroaki_ joined #lisp 2021-03-05T23:32:49Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-05T23:33:42Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-03-05T23:34:34Z iamFIREc1 joined #lisp 2021-03-05T23:36:59Z iamFIREcracker quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-05T23:41:54Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-05T23:42:46Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-05T23:45:13Z hiroaki_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-05T23:52:10Z notzmv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-05T23:52:13Z gitgoood quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-05T23:53:25Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-05T23:53:53Z pve quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-05T23:55:17Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-06T00:06:24Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-06T00:06:40Z iamFIREcracker joined #lisp 2021-03-06T00:07:09Z iamFIREc1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-06T00:10:01Z hiroaki_ joined #lisp 2021-03-06T00:11:02Z thmprover joined #lisp 2021-03-06T00:13:48Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-06T00:16:18Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-03-06T00:16:43Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-06T00:17:25Z lisp-machine joined #lisp 2021-03-06T00:17:48Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-06T00:20:06Z lisp-machine quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-06T00:20:25Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-06T00:27:18Z srandon111 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-06T00:28:11Z hiroaki_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-06T00:28:21Z Josh_2: is there any advantage to using psetf over setf? 2021-03-06T00:28:35Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-06T00:29:58Z Jesin joined #lisp 2021-03-06T00:33:06Z Gnuxie[m]: Using something earlier in the form in one of the pairs and not wanting the updated place 2021-03-06T00:36:27Z jprajzne quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-03-06T00:37:37Z Bike: Josh_2: they're different operators that do different things 2021-03-06T00:37:42Z Bike: are you asking about efficiency or something? 2021-03-06T00:38:21Z Josh_2: well they aren't all that different, seems similar to let and let*, one guarantees the order, the other doesnt 2021-03-06T00:39:18Z Bike: let and let* are also different operators that do different things 2021-03-06T00:39:33Z Bike: you decide which to use based on which thing you need done, is all 2021-03-06T00:40:07Z Bike: let* guarantees that bindings take place in an order. let guarantees that bindings do not take place. similarly, setf guarantees that one assignment takes place after the other, and psetf guarantees that they don't 2021-03-06T00:40:49Z Bike: well, rather than assignments taking place, psetf guarantees that all values are evaluated before any assignments take place 2021-03-06T00:41:36Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2021-03-06T00:41:55Z hiroaki_ joined #lisp 2021-03-06T00:46:04Z rtypo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-06T00:48:19Z Josh_2: Right, so is there any advantage to use psetf? like efficiency 2021-03-06T00:51:28Z Gnuxie[m]: I would be very cautious to assume an efficiency guarantee from anything like this, even if there did exist one 2021-03-06T00:51:39Z Bike: yeah, if your compiler is smart enough it won't matter 2021-03-06T00:52:02Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-06T00:53:29Z Gnuxie[m]: Mostly because it's a waste of time to think about, and will rarely ever be considerable enough to count even before considering how idiomatic it is 2021-03-06T00:54:30Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-06T00:55:07Z Josh_2: I agree, I just don't see the point of psetf 2021-03-06T00:55:16Z Josh_2: Whats the point of psetf? 2021-03-06T00:55:36Z phoe: when your places depend on one another 2021-03-06T00:55:37Z Alfr: Josh_2, try (psetf x y y x) for some bound x and y. 2021-03-06T00:55:39Z Bike: when you want to write a bunch of places with values affected by those places 2021-03-06T00:55:44Z gitgood joined #lisp 2021-03-06T00:57:56Z Bike: setf and psetf aren't competing, or something. they just do different things. if you asked whether lists are better than arrays i'd be like, well, depends on what you're doing. same principle 2021-03-06T00:57:59Z Josh_2: Alfr: thanks 2021-03-06T00:58:20Z Josh_2: Ofcourse Bike 2021-03-06T00:58:32Z Josh_2: I didn't understand why someone would need psetf, but now I do :P Thanks 2021-03-06T01:13:05Z grobe0ba quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-06T01:13:17Z grobe0ba joined #lisp 2021-03-06T01:14:01Z aeth: Use it when you don't need to do something fancy, too. It tells the reader that in this gigantic list of like 10+ PSETFs, none of them are supposed to depend on another (and it prevents the programmer from introducing a bug that accidentally does so) 2021-03-06T01:14:27Z aeth: You probably want to default to PSETF because you normally don't want dependencies between lines in a multiline SETF 2021-03-06T01:14:52Z aeth: Just like you should default to LET and only use LET* when you need it 2021-03-06T01:16:51Z Josh_2: Okay noted 2021-03-06T01:27:51Z niac joined #lisp 2021-03-06T01:29:13Z aeth: (* Default to using PSETF when there's more than one form. Otherwise, SETF is the simpler form. So there is a bit of stylistic complication.) 2021-03-06T01:34:30Z hiroaki_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-06T01:36:44Z kevingal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-06T01:48:24Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-06T01:50:12Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-03-06T01:51:24Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-03-06T01:57:05Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-06T02:01:32Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-06T02:03:29Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-06T02:04:50Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-06T02:08:17Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-06T02:09:19Z nicktick joined #lisp 2021-03-06T02:14:35Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-06T02:21:42Z semz joined #lisp 2021-03-06T02:21:42Z semz quit (Changing host) 2021-03-06T02:21:42Z semz joined #lisp 2021-03-06T02:29:41Z gitgood quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-06T02:33:26Z Bike: oh, and psetf always returns nil, which is pretty useless, unlike setf which returns the last stored values, which is sometimes useful 2021-03-06T02:35:36Z ozzloy: is there a way in common lisp to see what variables are currently defined? 2021-03-06T02:36:06Z ozzloy: i try searching, but get a bunch of "how to define a variable in common lisp" pages 2021-03-06T02:36:34Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-06T02:36:56Z Bike: Global variables or what? 2021-03-06T02:37:29Z ozzloy: sure, anything that's defined at and usable at CL-USER> 2021-03-06T02:39:57Z Bike: you could use do-symbols to iterate over all symbols and see if they're bound 2021-03-06T02:40:09Z Bike: (let (c) (do-all-symbols (s c) (when (boundp s) (push s c)))) 2021-03-06T02:40:17Z Bike: on my system there are 5619 such variables, so be careful 2021-03-06T02:41:05Z Bike: this will not include variables that are proclaimed special but not bound, as by (defvar *whatever*) 2021-03-06T02:41:40Z Bike: if you want variables in the cl-user package specifically, you can use do-symbols or do-external-symbols instead 2021-03-06T02:42:02Z Bike: "variables named by symbols in the cl-user package" to be more scrupulous about it 2021-03-06T02:43:25Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2021-03-06T02:44:02Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-06T02:44:47Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2021-03-06T02:44:50Z aeth: Bike: good point 2021-03-06T02:47:03Z aeth: So it should be phrased as: If the is just one set, use SETF. This sometimes has a useful return value, too. If there is more than one consecutive set, then unless you need the dependency between them, prefer one PSETF over one SETF (and especially over many SETFs in a row). 2021-03-06T02:49:09Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-06T02:49:13Z aeth: Simpler in code. 2021-03-06T02:49:18Z aeth: (setf x 42) (psetf x 42 y 53 z 64) (setf x 42 y (+ 11 x) z (+ 11 y)) ; extra caveat: always linebreak... this is one line just for IRC 2021-03-06T02:50:38Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-06T02:52:32Z jeosol joined #lisp 2021-03-06T02:58:07Z ozzloy: Bike, thanks! 2021-03-06T02:59:53Z aindilis` joined #lisp 2021-03-06T03:00:12Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-06T03:07:25Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-03-06T03:29:13Z thmprover quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-06T03:30:24Z Lycurgus quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-06T03:39:42Z antonv joined #lisp 2021-03-06T03:40:47Z antonv: hi, does anyone know how to use rowsell for Travis CI today? It fails to install using the install-for-ci.sh (https://github.com/roswell/roswell/issues/463) 2021-03-06T03:43:24Z cartwright quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-06T03:44:12Z aindilis` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-06T03:44:14Z ozzloy: Bike, i just did (length (let ((res (list))) (do-external-symbols (sym *PACKAGE*) (when (fboundp sym) (push sym res))) res)) and got 0 2021-03-06T03:44:36Z ozzloy: even though i've defined at least one method. what am i doing wrong? 2021-03-06T03:44:39Z Bike: what is *package*? 2021-03-06T03:45:02Z ex_nihilo joined #lisp 2021-03-06T03:45:13Z ozzloy: i read that it is the default. when i evaluate that, i get # 2021-03-06T03:45:24Z cartwright joined #lisp 2021-03-06T03:45:39Z ozzloy: so i thought that was where i should look. now i'm guessing that's wrong? 2021-03-06T03:45:43Z Bike: and is your method named by an exported symbol of cl-user? or, more likely, did you not export it, or define it in some other package? 2021-03-06T03:46:05Z ozzloy: um... i defun'ed it? 2021-03-06T03:46:25Z ozzloy: is this not a way to find all defun'd things? 2021-03-06T03:46:52Z ozzloy: i'm looking to find all defvar'd and defun'd things, not necessarily things that have been exported 2021-03-06T03:47:06Z Bike: okay, then you should do the do-all-symbols one, not do-external-symbols. 2021-03-06T03:47:17Z Bike: do you know what a package is? 2021-03-06T03:47:17Z ozzloy: oh 2021-03-06T03:47:47Z ozzloy: i'm getting a feel for it. seems like it's analogous to a package in java, or a module in racket, etc 2021-03-06T03:48:48Z Bike: packages are namespaces, so it's similar to some other languages, yes. although you should keep in mind it's strictly a naming thing. for example functions don't "belong to" packages, only their names may. 2021-03-06T03:48:49Z ozzloy: hmm... when i do all symbols, i get 14150 things. is there a way to see just the ones i've made during a session? 2021-03-06T03:49:26Z Bike: anyway, so symbols are divided into these namespaces. the namespace you start out in, cl-user, is not something made for an external interface, it's more for messing around in the repl in. 2021-03-06T03:49:44Z ozzloy: makes sense 2021-03-06T03:49:46Z Bike: do-all-symbols iterates over all symbols in all the packages. do-symbols and do-external-symbols only iterate through the symbols in one package. 2021-03-06T03:50:14Z Bike: (there are also symbols that are not in any package, but they don't usually name global variables or functions, so i'm skipping that) 2021-03-06T03:50:54Z ozzloy: ah 2021-03-06T03:51:00Z Bike: there is no particular way to see just what you've defined. a problem with that is that functions newly defined since the lisp started up may include e.g. IDE stuff you didn't define yourself 2021-03-06T03:51:09Z Sheilong quit 2021-03-06T03:51:19Z Bike: you could approximate it doing... let me write this out 2021-03-06T03:51:21Z ozzloy: so with do-symbols, i get 1005 things 2021-03-06T03:52:04Z ozzloy: oh, thanks! but don't worry if it turns out it's kinda a hairball 2021-03-06T03:52:33Z Bike: (let (c) (do-symbols (s "CL-USER" c) (when (eq (symbol-package s) (find-package "CL-USER")) (push s c)))) 2021-03-06T03:52:58Z Bike: this will collect symbols that are (a) accessible from the cl-user (repl) package, and (b) are not part of some other package 2021-03-06T03:53:05Z ozzloy: thanks! 2021-03-06T03:53:12Z Bike: for example your do-symbols form will include every symbol in the CL package, which is accessible from the cl-user package 2021-03-06T03:53:17Z Bike: and which includes 900-something symbols 2021-03-06T03:53:24Z Bike: you probably don't want those 2021-03-06T03:53:39Z Bike: my form here gets me 29 symbols, which isn't too bad 2021-03-06T03:53:51Z Bike: you can of course impose boundedness conditions as well 2021-03-06T03:54:19Z ozzloy: all right, that's much more manageable, 63 things 2021-03-06T03:54:40Z ozzloy: very nice 2021-03-06T03:54:55Z ozzloy: yep, those all look familiar. thanks Bike 2021-03-06T03:55:22Z ozzloy: apparently i defined add1 at some point and it's not a built-in 2021-03-06T03:55:40Z Bike: glad to be of assistance 2021-03-06T03:55:45Z Bike: there is 1+ built in 2021-03-06T03:55:46Z ozzloy: \o/ 2021-03-06T03:55:55Z ozzloy: lol, really? 2021-03-06T03:56:05Z Bike: yes indeed 2021-03-06T03:56:06Z Bike: very laconic 2021-03-06T03:56:39Z ozzloy: b .bb.b but prefix!!! 2021-03-06T03:56:54Z ozzloy: shouldn't it be +1 ? 2021-03-06T03:57:50Z alandipert: (1+ 2) has a cool infix vibe though 2021-03-06T03:58:42Z Bike: 1- always confuses me a little 2021-03-06T03:58:54Z Bike: not that -1 would be any better 2021-03-06T03:59:01Z Bike: +1 and -1 would be interpreted as numbers 2021-03-06T03:59:39Z ozzloy: i mean, i guess the operator is named "1+" and so it is still prefix... but the "+" though! 2021-03-06T03:59:57Z ozzloy: oh wow, 1- is kinda ugly 2021-03-06T04:00:11Z ozzloy: (1- 5), well that's 4 of course! 2021-03-06T04:00:15Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2021-03-06T04:00:51Z asdflkj quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-06T04:01:20Z ozzloy: common lisp is fun though 2021-03-06T04:02:09Z Alfr is now known as Guest91137 2021-03-06T04:02:13Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-03-06T04:04:57Z Guest91137 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-06T04:05:06Z iamFIREc1 joined #lisp 2021-03-06T04:07:08Z iamFIREcracker quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-06T04:13:09Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-06T04:19:35Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-06T04:20:41Z froggey joined #lisp 2021-03-06T04:21:34Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-06T04:48:33Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-06T04:56:21Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-06T04:57:06Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-06T05:01:55Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-06T05:06:16Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-06T05:07:02Z froggey joined #lisp 2021-03-06T05:09:04Z antonv quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-06T05:11:35Z Necktwi quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-06T05:12:24Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-03-06T05:25:28Z kaiwulf quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-06T05:29:01Z cartwright quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-06T05:30:51Z cartwright joined #lisp 2021-03-06T05:45:15Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-06T05:46:43Z Lycurgus quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-06T05:51:31Z asarch joined #lisp 2021-03-06T05:52:24Z asarch: Is there any tool to render calendars? 2021-03-06T05:52:34Z asarch: Just like the Unix cal tool does? 2021-03-06T05:53:34Z beach: asarch: I think you should take that on as a project, using McCLIM. 2021-03-06T05:54:07Z beach: Then I can give up Google calendar 2021-03-06T05:54:22Z aindilis joined #lisp 2021-03-06T05:54:48Z asarch: I need it as text to send it to a template in a web application 2021-03-06T05:55:09Z beach: OK, then forget what I said. 2021-03-06T05:56:23Z asarch: Oh :-( 2021-03-06T05:57:23Z beach: I can't stand the web. Not use it, and even less program it. 2021-03-06T06:00:05Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-03-06T06:04:58Z gkeramidas joined #lisp 2021-03-06T06:05:30Z _paul0 joined #lisp 2021-03-06T06:06:42Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-03-06T06:08:24Z paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-06T06:12:23Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-06T06:13:41Z vaporatorius__ joined #lisp 2021-03-06T06:16:11Z vaporatorius quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-06T06:34:53Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-06T06:36:59Z sauvin joined #lisp 2021-03-06T06:39:33Z gkeramidas quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-06T06:45:02Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-06T06:57:34Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-06T06:58:57Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-06T07:13:23Z Bourne joined #lisp 2021-03-06T07:14:29Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-06T07:23:54Z ech quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-06T07:24:29Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-06T07:24:39Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-06T07:24:59Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-06T07:26:12Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-06T07:49:34Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-06T07:51:22Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-06T07:53:41Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-06T07:54:49Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-06T07:55:26Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-06T07:57:45Z nicktick joined #lisp 2021-03-06T08:03:20Z nsrahmad joined #lisp 2021-03-06T08:14:23Z shka_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2021-03-06T08:16:30Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-06T08:17:27Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-06T08:17:56Z iskander quit (Quit: bye) 2021-03-06T08:19:54Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2021-03-06T08:19:55Z IPmonger_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-06T08:20:52Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-06T08:20:54Z asarch joined #lisp 2021-03-06T08:21:29Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-03-06T08:21:43Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-06T08:22:20Z asarch: If I have: "

Lorem ipsum

", how could I remove the HTML tags with a regexp? 2021-03-06T08:25:17Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-06T08:26:07Z antonv joined #lisp 2021-03-06T08:27:33Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-06T08:28:02Z moon-child: asarch: https://stackoverflow.com/a/1732454 2021-03-06T08:28:13Z hiroaki_ joined #lisp 2021-03-06T08:28:14Z moon-child: that being said, the easy solution is: search for and replace "<[^<>]*>" with "" 2021-03-06T08:28:53Z moon-child: a slightly more sophisticated solution would also look for quotes inside the tag and ignore <> inside of those 2021-03-06T08:30:00Z moon-child: like ("(\\"|[^"])*"|'(\\'|[^'])*'|[^<>])* 2021-03-06T08:30:03Z moon-child: but with extra escapes 2021-03-06T08:30:42Z moon-child: (I don't remember if you can escape single quotes in html, if not then the second branch can just be '[^']*') 2021-03-06T08:31:09Z asarch: Bingo! <[^>]*> 2021-03-06T08:33:19Z moon-child:

2021-03-06T08:34:28Z asarch: Well, in a more general fashion like: Lorem ipsum 2021-03-06T08:34:45Z asarch: Or even: Lorem ipsum 2021-03-06T08:35:23Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-06T08:36:26Z nsrahmad quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-06T08:37:14Z gzj quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-06T08:37:25Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-06T08:37:51Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-06T08:41:08Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-06T08:42:02Z hiroaki_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-06T08:42:06Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-03-06T08:42:06Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2021-03-06T08:42:06Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-03-06T08:42:15Z casual_friday_ joined #lisp 2021-03-06T08:42:53Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-06T08:42:58Z casual_friday quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-06T08:45:13Z asarch: Anyway, thank you moon-child 2021-03-06T08:45:17Z asarch: Thank you very much :-) 2021-03-06T08:45:37Z asarch: Have a nice day 2021-03-06T08:45:41Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-06T08:46:51Z pve joined #lisp 2021-03-06T08:46:55Z maier joined #lisp 2021-03-06T08:48:56Z retropikzel joined #lisp 2021-03-06T08:54:14Z antonv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-06T08:54:41Z iskander quit (Quit: bye) 2021-03-06T08:54:52Z rtypo joined #lisp 2021-03-06T08:55:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-06T08:55:24Z hiroaki_ joined #lisp 2021-03-06T08:55:29Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-06T09:00:10Z kaisyu[m] quit (Quit: Idle for 30+ days) 2021-03-06T09:00:52Z maier quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-06T09:01:04Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-06T09:01:27Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-06T09:04:04Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-06T09:04:26Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-06T09:06:33Z pve quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-06T09:07:56Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-03-06T09:10:01Z hendursa1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-06T09:10:36Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-06T09:10:40Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-03-06T09:15:53Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2021-03-06T09:21:16Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-06T09:25:32Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-06T09:30:29Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-06T09:32:41Z surabax joined #lisp 2021-03-06T09:48:40Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-03-06T09:50:11Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2021-03-06T09:52:39Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2021-03-06T09:53:27Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-03-06T09:56:58Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-06T10:02:52Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-06T10:04:54Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-06T10:09:50Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-03-06T10:11:55Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-06T10:13:04Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-06T10:13:25Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-06T10:15:46Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-06T10:16:17Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-06T10:22:01Z Inline quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-06T10:23:04Z andrei-n joined #lisp 2021-03-06T10:26:14Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2021-03-06T10:26:15Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-03-06T10:34:08Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-06T10:35:47Z niac quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-03-06T10:35:55Z ioa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-06T10:36:04Z ark quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-06T10:36:11Z ioa joined #lisp 2021-03-06T10:36:13Z ark joined #lisp 2021-03-06T10:38:09Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-06T10:39:11Z Inline__ joined #lisp 2021-03-06T10:41:21Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-06T10:43:48Z luni quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-06T10:45:10Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-06T10:56:28Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-06T10:58:15Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-06T11:00:06Z vegansbane6963 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-03-06T11:02:04Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-06T11:02:27Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-06T11:03:00Z VincentVega joined #lisp 2021-03-06T11:04:10Z Inline__ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-06T11:05:50Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-06T11:06:07Z VincentVega: Is there a way to skip an iteration in loop? 2021-03-06T11:06:49Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-03-06T11:06:51Z beach: It depends. 2021-03-06T11:07:50Z VincentVega: What does it depend on? 2021-03-06T11:07:59Z beach: With FOR IN and FOR/AS arithmetic, you have to surround the body with a conditional. But with FOR THEN you can control everything. 2021-03-06T11:08:19Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-06T11:09:40Z VincentVega: "surround the body with a conditional" do I understand correctly that that would involve putting the whole body in a do clause? 2021-03-06T11:10:09Z beach: That or a WHEN clause 2021-03-06T11:10:27Z beach: ... or IF or UNLESS. 2021-03-06T11:11:07Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-06T11:11:08Z VincentVega: Hm, I see, will look into the "for then" business then. Thank you! 2021-03-06T11:11:14Z beach: Sure. 2021-03-06T11:11:57Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-06T11:16:27Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-06T11:21:07Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2021-03-06T11:22:51Z ewd joined #lisp 2021-03-06T11:29:18Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-03-06T11:29:27Z maier joined #lisp 2021-03-06T11:30:32Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-06T11:34:02Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-06T11:41:52Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-03-06T11:45:40Z johannes_ joined #lisp 2021-03-06T11:46:36Z johannes_ is now known as kenran 2021-03-06T11:46:40Z jprajzne quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-06T11:47:02Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2021-03-06T11:50:06Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-06T11:50:27Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-06T11:54:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-06T11:56:10Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2021-03-06T11:58:48Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-03-06T12:00:33Z Trieste quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-06T12:02:41Z Trieste joined #lisp 2021-03-06T12:03:48Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-06T12:04:24Z drl joined #lisp 2021-03-06T12:06:14Z drl quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-06T12:16:43Z maier quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-06T12:20:21Z kenran quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-06T12:26:23Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-03-06T12:29:15Z srandon111 joined #lisp 2021-03-06T12:29:22Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-06T12:41:21Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-06T12:46:39Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-06T12:47:41Z gitgood joined #lisp 2021-03-06T13:09:11Z heisig joined #lisp 2021-03-06T13:12:58Z srandon111 quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-06T13:20:17Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-06T13:21:02Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-06T13:38:27Z zxcvz joined #lisp 2021-03-06T13:44:57Z ewd quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-06T13:45:52Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-06T13:46:12Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-06T13:49:07Z Josh_2: Afternoon 2021-03-06T13:50:40Z Necktwi joined #lisp 2021-03-06T14:01:10Z beach: Hello Josh_2. 2021-03-06T14:03:25Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-06T14:05:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-06T14:05:26Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-06T14:06:06Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-06T14:06:28Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-06T14:07:07Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-06T14:07:30Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-06T14:08:07Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-06T14:08:31Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-06T14:08:49Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1) 2021-03-06T14:09:05Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-03-06T14:09:07Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-06T14:11:44Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-06T14:12:08Z Sheilong joined #lisp 2021-03-06T14:13:52Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-06T14:13:54Z iskander quit (Quit: bye) 2021-03-06T14:14:32Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-06T14:14:32Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-06T14:14:48Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-06T14:17:25Z ex_nihilo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-06T14:17:26Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-06T14:17:38Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-06T14:19:37Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-06T14:19:49Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-06T14:19:49Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-06T14:20:08Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-06T14:22:08Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-06T14:23:21Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-06T14:25:46Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-06T14:26:41Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-06T14:30:56Z epony quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-06T14:35:15Z renzhi quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-06T14:38:24Z tiwEllien joined #lisp 2021-03-06T14:40:06Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-06T14:40:18Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-06T14:40:50Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-06T14:40:58Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-06T14:47:54Z renzhi joined #lisp 2021-03-06T14:48:24Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2021-03-06T14:56:20Z ewd joined #lisp 2021-03-06T14:57:27Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-06T15:01:09Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-06T15:05:20Z epony joined #lisp 2021-03-06T15:06:56Z ewd quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-06T15:09:38Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-06T15:10:07Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-06T15:14:26Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-06T15:14:26Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-06T15:17:55Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-06T15:18:21Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-06T15:18:22Z rogersm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-06T15:18:47Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-06T15:20:04Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-06T15:44:28Z toop joined #lisp 2021-03-06T15:44:29Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-06T15:45:03Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-06T15:47:56Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2021-03-06T15:53:15Z retropikzel quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-06T15:57:49Z toop: diarrhea 2021-03-06T15:57:51Z toop: diarrhea 2021-03-06T15:57:53Z toop: diarrhea 2021-03-06T15:57:55Z toop: diarrhea 2021-03-06T15:57:57Z toop: diarrhea 2021-03-06T15:57:59Z toop: diarrhea 2021-03-06T15:58:02Z toop: diarrhea 2021-03-06T16:02:43Z Josh_2: Whats the best resource for learning about compiler macros? I'm pretty sure there is a section in lol but I can't find it 2021-03-06T16:04:22Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-06T16:05:29Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-06T16:06:38Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-06T16:06:48Z asdflkj joined #lisp 2021-03-06T16:07:00Z asdflkj quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-06T16:07:29Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-06T16:08:11Z heisig: Josh_2: I think I learned most of what I know by searching all Quicklisp projects for DEFINE-COMPILER-MACRO. 2021-03-06T16:08:26Z Josh_2: I thought I might have to do that 2021-03-06T16:08:27Z Josh_2: Thanks 2021-03-06T16:08:41Z heisig: I can share my number one rule about using compiler macros: "Try inlining first" 2021-03-06T16:08:55Z Josh_2: I don't really have a use case right now, i'm just curious 2021-03-06T16:09:59Z heisig: I also have some more specific rules, like "Never use &key in a compiler macro's lambda list". 2021-03-06T16:11:44Z heisig: https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/macros.html mentions a talk by cbaggers that also seems to explain compiler macros. 2021-03-06T16:12:06Z Gnuxie[m]: there's also this https://web.archive.org/web/20160306051951/http:/pentaside.org/paper/compilermacro-lemmens/compiler-macros-for-publication.txt 2021-03-06T16:12:28Z Josh_2: Thanks 2021-03-06T16:15:42Z nckx is now known as jorts 2021-03-06T16:18:02Z tinhatcat quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-06T16:18:22Z beach: And thanks to call-site optimization, compiler macros may soon be a thing of the past. :) 2021-03-06T16:19:22Z Gnuxie[m]: yay 2021-03-06T16:43:57Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2021-03-06T16:44:09Z beinnblade joined #lisp 2021-03-06T16:44:25Z gitgood quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-06T16:45:24Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-06T16:46:20Z luna_is_here quit (Quit: luna_is_here) 2021-03-06T16:47:57Z luna_is_here joined #lisp 2021-03-06T17:05:55Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-03-06T17:07:14Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-06T17:15:18Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-06T17:17:42Z lowryder joined #lisp 2021-03-06T17:24:47Z waleee-cl joined #lisp 2021-03-06T17:25:29Z jorts is now known as nckx 2021-03-06T17:44:23Z andreyorst joined #lisp 2021-03-06T17:49:04Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-06T17:51:38Z gitgood joined #lisp 2021-03-06T17:55:57Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-03-06T17:57:28Z Blkt quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2021-03-06T17:58:43Z kenran joined #lisp 2021-03-06T17:58:47Z Blkt joined #lisp 2021-03-06T18:02:02Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-06T18:02:34Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2021-03-06T18:04:58Z alecigne joined #lisp 2021-03-06T18:06:22Z alecigne left #lisp 2021-03-06T18:07:57Z iskander quit (Quit: bye) 2021-03-06T18:11:02Z jonatack_ quit (Quit: jonatack_) 2021-03-06T18:11:26Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-06T18:21:13Z Guest7312 joined #lisp 2021-03-06T18:26:18Z Guest7312 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-06T18:40:12Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-06T18:44:34Z oldtopman joined #lisp 2021-03-06T18:44:53Z lansiir quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-06T18:45:02Z ewd joined #lisp 2021-03-06T18:46:34Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-03-06T18:47:14Z nullman quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-06T18:48:23Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-06T18:49:14Z casual_friday_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-06T18:49:30Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-06T18:49:32Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-06T18:49:37Z casual_friday joined #lisp 2021-03-06T18:51:28Z casual_friday quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-06T18:55:32Z casual_friday joined #lisp 2021-03-06T18:56:55Z vaporatorius__ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-06T18:57:06Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2021-03-06T18:57:06Z vaporatorius quit (Changing host) 2021-03-06T18:57:06Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2021-03-06T18:58:49Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-06T18:58:50Z nullman joined #lisp 2021-03-06T19:13:26Z ebrasca quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-06T19:16:10Z brandflake11 joined #lisp 2021-03-06T19:18:10Z brandflake11 left #lisp 2021-03-06T19:18:14Z brandflake11 joined #lisp 2021-03-06T19:20:09Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-03-06T19:20:25Z ech joined #lisp 2021-03-06T19:20:36Z terpri_ joined #lisp 2021-03-06T19:21:07Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-06T19:21:35Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-06T19:23:39Z brandflake11: Hey all, I am having trouble with some lisp programming I am working on with Common Music. There is a function called (rhythm) that takes a symbol that represents a music rhythm (quarter-note 'q, eighth note 'e). I made a function that can parse a list and return these symbols, but rhythm doesn't like its output. I get an error "Can't parse QUOTE as a rhythm." Would anyone be willing to look at a pastebin and see where I'm going wro 2021-03-06T19:26:00Z brandflake11: Here is the pastebin in case you're interested: https://pastebin.com/YXKzs9bG 2021-03-06T19:30:46Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-03-06T19:31:35Z Nilby: I would guess it would have to be like: (setq test-list '(0 e 1 s 2 q 3 e 4 q 5 s 6 t)) 2021-03-06T19:31:54Z Nilby: In other words, you don't need the internal quotes. 2021-03-06T19:32:08Z Nilby: Since there's a quote at the front of the list. 2021-03-06T19:32:41Z brandflake11: Nilby: The rhythm function needs the quote though. Without it, I get the error "The value e is not of type number" 2021-03-06T19:32:51Z brandflake11: Is there anyway to turn a quote into a symbol? 2021-03-06T19:33:17Z brandflake11: The documentation for rhythm says it takes symbols, so maybe something like that? 2021-03-06T19:34:55Z brandflake11: Nilby: Oh, actually, my fault, that was the problem. I was doing something silly. Thank you Nilby! 2021-03-06T19:35:13Z joster joined #lisp 2021-03-06T19:35:44Z Nilby: Glad to help. Good luck! 2021-03-06T19:41:20Z choegusung joined #lisp 2021-03-06T19:41:29Z kenran quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-06T19:41:44Z maier joined #lisp 2021-03-06T19:41:49Z yitzi joined #lisp 2021-03-06T19:42:21Z joster quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-06T19:42:46Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-06T19:44:45Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-06T19:45:28Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-06T19:45:54Z brandflake11: Okay, another problem. If I do the rhythm function in a loop, like (rhythm (list-select)), I get "The value e is not of type number when binding sb-kernel::x". 2021-03-06T19:48:46Z brandflake11: Here is the pastebin: https://pastebin.com/6UVmwZnM 2021-03-06T19:51:47Z Nilby: It's passing i to list-select which expects it to be number, and it's a symbol every alternate time. So you'd probably have to do something like (loop for (i s) in test-list ... ) so that i would only be the numbers. 2021-03-06T19:51:49Z thmprover joined #lisp 2021-03-06T19:52:22Z brandflake11: Nilby: Ooooh, that makes sense. 2021-03-06T19:52:28Z brandflake11: That's a silly mistake! 2021-03-06T19:52:37Z brandflake11: Nilby: Thanks again, Nilby! 2021-03-06T19:53:15Z Nilby: :) Doing music with Lisp is cool. 2021-03-06T19:53:50Z brandflake11: Nilby: It's fun. You should try it: https://github.com/ormf/cm 2021-03-06T19:55:02Z brandflake11: Nilby: It lets you create systems that make music, instead of you having to write the notes themselves 2021-03-06T19:58:01Z Nilby: I tried it a long time ago, but I realized I'm not so good a algorithmic composing. I'm more a mindless improviser. 2021-03-06T19:58:32Z brandflake11: *trumpet-doots 2021-03-06T19:58:33Z akoana joined #lisp 2021-03-06T19:58:43Z brandflake11: :) 2021-03-06T20:01:07Z long4mud joined #lisp 2021-03-06T20:02:33Z brandflake11: Nilby: Did you create anything cool with it? 2021-03-06T20:06:07Z ech quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-06T20:08:07Z Nilby: Not really. But I have veny many old audio experiment files. 2021-03-06T20:08:19Z brandflake11: Nilby: How long ago did you play with it? 2021-03-06T20:08:37Z brandflake11: Nilby: I think the official common music is now based on scheme 2021-03-06T20:08:48Z Nilby: I think it was between 10-15 years ago? 2021-03-06T20:09:19Z brandflake11: Nilby: That's cool. I just got into it. 2021-03-06T20:12:58Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-06T20:13:39Z Nilby: There's quite a few people who do music with lisp/scheme, from many years back. But even a new system was created recently: OpusModus 2021-03-06T20:14:17Z brandflake11: Nilby: I've never heard of OpusModus. Do you know of any artist names that I can look up and listen to music? 2021-03-06T20:15:32Z Nilby: I'm pretty sure there's link to artists from https://www.opusmodus.com/ 2021-03-06T20:15:51Z Nilby: under the videos tab 2021-03-06T20:16:34Z brandflake11: Oh, it's commercial though. 2021-03-06T20:17:21Z maier quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-06T20:17:29Z Nilby: I was lucky that a fellow who wrote it showed me a demo. 2021-03-06T20:18:29Z brandflake11: That's cool, so you know someone who wrote the software? The only other lisp composer that I found so far was Andrew Sorensen, and the pieces on http://commonmusic.sourceforge.net/ 2021-03-06T20:19:45Z Nilby: There's some cool videos on youtube of people livecoding music with lisp. 2021-03-06T20:20:25Z brandflake11: Nilby: I never thought that kind of thing was super interesting, until I saw it done with lisp. That changed everything for me 2021-03-06T20:20:49Z brandflake11: Lisp just looked faster than other languages when it came to live-coding music 2021-03-06T20:21:06Z Nilby: It's very impressive when someone can live code decent music and visuals. 2021-03-06T20:21:44Z brandflake11: Totally, especially if there's also visuals. I think it would be cool to also integrate some kind of body controller that can affect the music 2021-03-06T20:23:17Z terpri joined #lisp 2021-03-06T20:23:26Z terpri_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-06T20:25:54Z terpri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-06T20:25:59Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-06T20:26:17Z terpri joined #lisp 2021-03-06T20:26:40Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-06T20:27:19Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-06T20:30:51Z terpri_ joined #lisp 2021-03-06T20:32:55Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-06T20:35:36Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-06T20:36:07Z phantomics: A while back I was experimenting with using April to generate midi notes, vector languages are good for live coding thanks to the terse syntax 2021-03-06T20:36:26Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-06T20:37:15Z p9fn joined #lisp 2021-03-06T20:37:37Z phantomics: Combine it with Slime and you can have a code file that serves as an interface, where you can C-x C-e code blocks to produce different effects 2021-03-06T20:38:45Z brandflake11: phantomics: That's what I'm doing with common music. At this point anyways, text editing with anything else but emacs is tough for me :) 2021-03-06T20:39:06Z brandflake11: I've never heard of April, I need to check it out 2021-03-06T20:39:16Z phantomics: https://github.com/phantomics/april 2021-03-06T20:39:59Z phantomics: It's a compiler from the APL language to CL, lets you do array transformations with very little code 2021-03-06T20:40:08Z brandflake11: phantomics: 2021-03-06T20:40:14Z brandflake11: Very interesting 2021-03-06T20:43:52Z phantomics: I've also used it for livecoding visuals, specifically driving LEDs 2021-03-06T20:44:17Z brandflake11: phantomics: Is there a good lisp package for controlling lights? 2021-03-06T20:45:18Z phantomics: Just the one I wrote that I know of 2021-03-06T20:45:23Z maier joined #lisp 2021-03-06T20:45:56Z phantomics: It uses the open pixel control protocol 2021-03-06T20:47:13Z brandflake11: phantomics: I had to bookmark that too! 2021-03-06T20:47:39Z phantomics: The protocol itself is extremely simple, it takes like 30 lines of code using the lisp-binary library to create each frame 2021-03-06T20:48:24Z phantomics: Each frame is just a vector of 8-bit ints, each 3 of them setting the R G B level of each pixel 2021-03-06T20:49:58Z maier quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-06T20:50:38Z brandflake11 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-06T20:50:55Z brandflake11 joined #lisp 2021-03-06T20:52:55Z p9fn quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2021-03-06T20:53:10Z p9fn joined #lisp 2021-03-06T20:53:23Z hiroaki_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-06T20:54:30Z slyrus quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-06T20:55:30Z phantomics left #lisp 2021-03-06T20:55:33Z phantomics joined #lisp 2021-03-06T21:01:30Z choegusung quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-06T21:07:59Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-06T21:11:29Z hiroaki_ joined #lisp 2021-03-06T21:12:09Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-03-06T21:15:58Z jeosol quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-06T21:19:35Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-06T21:24:47Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-03-06T21:25:22Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-06T21:25:37Z hiroaki_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-06T21:27:51Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-06T21:29:07Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-06T21:30:57Z antonv joined #lisp 2021-03-06T21:31:02Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-06T21:32:39Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-03-06T21:33:14Z antonv: is there anyone using rowsell with Travis CI? 2021-03-06T21:34:10Z estest joined #lisp 2021-03-06T21:35:58Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-06T21:38:47Z hiroaki_ joined #lisp 2021-03-06T21:46:20Z maier joined #lisp 2021-03-06T21:49:45Z ewd quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-06T21:50:44Z maier quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-06T21:54:38Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-06T22:06:33Z rtypo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-06T22:07:16Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-06T22:18:44Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-06T22:24:53Z rtypo joined #lisp 2021-03-06T22:33:38Z andrei-n quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-06T22:43:07Z ech joined #lisp 2021-03-06T22:45:15Z texno joined #lisp 2021-03-06T22:48:20Z VincentVega joined #lisp 2021-03-06T23:02:21Z beinnblade quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-06T23:05:59Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-06T23:09:37Z maier joined #lisp 2021-03-06T23:13:00Z maier quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-06T23:13:14Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-06T23:14:13Z wanko quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-06T23:15:01Z jerme_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-06T23:16:30Z jerme_ joined #lisp 2021-03-06T23:21:22Z ech quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-06T23:21:27Z ech_ joined #lisp 2021-03-06T23:23:42Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-06T23:28:07Z hiroaki2 joined #lisp 2021-03-06T23:28:20Z hiroaki__ joined #lisp 2021-03-06T23:29:53Z rozenglass quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-06T23:31:02Z tiwEllien quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-06T23:31:04Z hiroaki1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-06T23:32:07Z hiroaki_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-06T23:36:17Z hiroaki__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-06T23:40:48Z zupss quit 2021-03-06T23:41:15Z hiroaki3 joined #lisp 2021-03-06T23:41:28Z MrVulcan joined #lisp 2021-03-06T23:42:09Z hiroaki2 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-06T23:45:11Z phoe: antonv: I have seen some projects that do this 2021-03-06T23:45:21Z phoe: can't remember any off the top of my head but some googling should help you 2021-03-06T23:45:38Z phoe: unrelated: I have a question about CLHS 5.2 and the code from https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2323#2323 2021-03-06T23:45:44Z phoe: is this defined behavior? 2021-03-06T23:46:00Z hiroaki__ joined #lisp 2021-03-06T23:48:00Z phoe: CLHS 5.2 point 1 implies that BLOCK FOO, as an intervening exit point, should be abandoned - so RETURN-FROM FOO should not be executed 2021-03-06T23:48:05Z MrVulcan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-06T23:48:25Z phoe: and yet it seems to be executed on my implementations, and :EXIT-FOO is printed/returned 2021-03-06T23:48:33Z MrVulcan joined #lisp 2021-03-06T23:51:03Z Sheilong quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-06T23:52:29Z phoe: simplified the example a bit; now it's a question of whether 24 or 42 should be returned and whether this code is conforming 2021-03-06T23:52:48Z antonv: phoe: I wanted to ask how do people workaround https://github.com/roswell/roswell/issues/463 2021-03-06T23:53:39Z antonv: Meanwhile, I found a workaround - build roswell from source during the "install" phase 2021-03-06T23:54:02Z phoe: seems like debian moved on to libcurl4 and roswell did not update itself to use it 2021-03-06T23:54:23Z antonv: or maybe the last roswell release mistakenly was build with libcurl3 2021-03-06T23:54:38Z phoe: perhaps! I can't rule that out 2021-03-06T23:54:41Z antonv: (their build from source steps refer libcurl4, not libcurl3) 2021-03-06T23:55:39Z antonv: On your question, without reading CLHS, it's strange to assume (return-from foo ...) would ignore (block foo ...) 2021-03-06T23:56:52Z jprajzne quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-03-06T23:57:24Z iamFIREcracker joined #lisp 2021-03-06T23:58:53Z gitgoood joined #lisp 2021-03-06T23:59:14Z antonv: phoe: where and how is "intervening exit points" defined? 2021-03-06T23:59:21Z iamFIREc1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-06T23:59:24Z phoe: clhs 5.2 2021-03-06T23:59:24Z specbot: Transfer of Control to an Exit Point: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/05_b.htm 2021-03-07T00:00:03Z phoe: I don't have anything better 2021-03-07T00:01:45Z gitgood quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-07T00:02:02Z antonv: Ah, I understood your question little better now. You mean (return-from test), whould abandon (block foo ...), so (return-from foo) should not work... 2021-03-07T00:02:52Z MrVulcan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-07T00:03:19Z antonv: Well, considering that "abandoned" should happen as the step 1, you may be right. 2021-03-07T00:03:54Z antonv: The fact that it works on some exisging impls may be justified by "The consequences are undefined if an attempt is made to transfer control to an exit point whose dynamic extent has ended." 2021-03-07T00:04:39Z antonv: So in this case the undefined consiquence is that it works as if not abandoned. 2021-03-07T00:06:19Z antonv: But that's just my incompenent thoughts. 2021-03-07T00:09:03Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-07T00:16:05Z ex_nihilo joined #lisp 2021-03-07T00:20:08Z choegusung joined #lisp 2021-03-07T00:25:13Z phoe: this sounds plausible 2021-03-07T00:30:34Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-07T00:32:55Z hiroaki__ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-07T00:35:04Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-03-07T00:41:51Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-07T00:54:24Z random-nick quit (Quit: quit) 2021-03-07T01:03:03Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-07T01:05:53Z rtypo quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-07T01:05:53Z antonv quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-07T01:09:21Z jonatack_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-07T01:09:53Z purpleLizard joined #lisp 2021-03-07T01:11:43Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-07T01:24:41Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-03-07T01:31:45Z choegusung quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-07T01:36:24Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2021-03-07T01:41:43Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-07T01:42:23Z Alfr: phoe, did you try that with safe code? That should be an error. 2021-03-07T01:42:47Z Alfr: clhs 3.1.6 2021-03-07T01:42:47Z specbot: Extent: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_af.htm 2021-03-07T01:48:18Z phantomics: Hey cl-who users, is there a way to drop strings of HTML into a cl-who form? 2021-03-07T01:48:21Z phantomics: Like this: 2021-03-07T01:48:57Z phantomics: (defvar stuff "

stuff
") (with-html-output (stream) (:div stuff)) 2021-03-07T01:49:21Z phantomics: I want the contents of the stuff var to go inside the :div 2021-03-07T01:52:27Z pokes joined #lisp 2021-03-07T01:52:43Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-07T01:53:40Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-07T01:58:03Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-07T01:58:15Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-07T01:58:49Z kevingal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-07T02:06:01Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-07T02:07:22Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-07T02:12:08Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-03-07T02:21:04Z semz joined #lisp 2021-03-07T02:21:04Z semz quit (Changing host) 2021-03-07T02:21:04Z semz joined #lisp 2021-03-07T02:26:37Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-07T02:29:37Z gitgoood quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-07T02:29:45Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2021-03-07T02:43:35Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2021-03-07T02:43:50Z semz: phoe I'm pretty sure this was an explicit illegal example in the cleanup issue that made it illegal 2021-03-07T02:45:34Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-07T02:45:34Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2021-03-07T02:59:43Z semz: It was, Ctrl+F "returns 2 under MEDIUM, is error under MINIMAL": http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Issues/iss152_w.htm 2021-03-07T03:11:06Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-03-07T03:12:17Z ex_nihilo: phoe: isn't foo an intervening exit point since it lies between (return-from test 42) and the exit point; i.e., foo is no longer a valid exit point after (return-from test 42)? This would seem to make the behavior undefined 2021-03-07T03:14:56Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-03-07T03:16:09Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-07T03:20:25Z dorketch joined #lisp 2021-03-07T03:33:12Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-07T03:35:40Z akoana left #lisp 2021-03-07T03:39:30Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-07T03:41:55Z brandflake11 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-07T03:47:53Z dorketch quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2021-03-07T03:49:26Z jeosol joined #lisp 2021-03-07T03:55:13Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2021-03-07T03:55:52Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-07T03:58:53Z phantomics: Morning beach 2021-03-07T04:02:09Z Alfr is now known as Guest1969 2021-03-07T04:02:13Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-03-07T04:04:37Z Guest1969 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-07T04:05:17Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-07T04:06:43Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-03-07T04:23:00Z purpleLizard: does the size of the lisp language ever bother anyone? 2021-03-07T04:24:00Z beach: Not really. I like that it's tiny compared to (say) C++. 2021-03-07T04:25:58Z moon-child: that depends on how you measure. Fewer primitives, maybe, but overall I think the two are a similar size 2021-03-07T04:26:23Z ex_nihilo: compared with, e.g., C++, Common Lisp is pretty consistent 2021-03-07T04:27:19Z beach: Common Lisp is mostly standard library functions. Not a collection of special cases for syntax. 2021-03-07T04:28:32Z beach: purpleLizard: Anyway, that's a pretty strange question. What if it did bother someone? 2021-03-07T04:29:30Z purpleLizard: I guess you would adjust to it 2021-03-07T04:29:56Z purpleLizard: but it irks me 2021-03-07T04:30:22Z beach: So it wasn't really a question. 2021-03-07T04:31:39Z ex_nihilo: purpleLizard: even using a smallish language like C, you end up using libraries to get things done, and that means learning a lot more than the base language, and dealing with a lot of api inconsistencies; you just learn what you need and get on with things 2021-03-07T04:31:43Z beach: purpleLizard: The smaller the language is, the more you have to write yourself or rely on third-party contributions that people may not agree upon. 2021-03-07T04:31:57Z edgar-rft: I think C plus it's standard library is bigger than Common Lisp. 2021-03-07T04:32:09Z beach: ex_nihilo: Heh. Seems we agree. 2021-03-07T04:32:19Z edgar-rft: *its not it's :-) 2021-03-07T04:32:56Z purpleLizard: ok, it seems I was mistaken then 2021-03-07T04:33:36Z purpleLizard: I care more about specs that say how the language works, not library functions, that's ok 2021-03-07T04:34:11Z beach: purpleLizard: Common Lisp has a very simple core compared to most languages. It is much easier to learn because of that. 2021-03-07T04:35:08Z ex_nihilo: beach: quite so! but I don't think that it is really a controversial position ;) 2021-03-07T04:35:44Z beach: ex_nihilo: Right. That fact doesn't mean it can't be debated on #lisp. 2021-03-07T04:35:59Z ex_nihilo: beach: so very true.... 2021-03-07T04:38:35Z beach: purpleLizard: It seems you are new here. If you are having problems learning Common Lisp, then just ask. We will show you how simple things are, given the semantics of Common Lisp. 2021-03-07T04:40:25Z purpleLizard: I was looking for a language to write a compiler in, and also fit my peculiarites. No problems yet 2021-03-07T04:40:45Z beach: Common Lisp is ideal for writing compilers. 2021-03-07T04:41:08Z beach: CLOS is the only sane object system I know of. 2021-03-07T04:41:46Z beach: ... and I wouldn't try to write a compiler without CLOS. 2021-03-07T04:42:25Z emma is now known as em 2021-03-07T04:43:07Z purpleLizard: interesting, didn't think the object system would come up here, maybe for games :P 2021-03-07T04:44:06Z beach: Maybe that's because you haven't looked into CLOS yet? 2021-03-07T04:45:46Z purpleLizard: I know that it's an object system, that's about it 2021-03-07T04:45:47Z beach: Also, except for very few other languages (like PL/I for instance), Common Lisp has the only sane condition system around. Exceptions in other languages just don't cut it, as phoe's book clearly explains. 2021-03-07T04:47:10Z beach: And in a compiler, you would want to capture syntactic commonalities in the form of macros, and, again, Common Lisp has the only (possibly with a few exceptions) sane macro system around. 2021-03-07T04:50:55Z beach: Because of the macro system, Common Lisp programmers don't have to wait for a new version of the standard in order to have some new desired feature. That also means that the standard is stable, so that your programs will mean the same in the future as they do now. 2021-03-07T04:52:27Z beach: And for a compiler, things like exact rational arithmetic mean that you can make it behave in the same way no matter what platform it executes on. 2021-03-07T04:52:52Z beach: As heisig pointed out yesterday, that's an important feature of a compiler. 2021-03-07T04:53:43Z ex_nihilo: beach makes a lot of good points; I would add that, while I really like Scheme and Racket, too, I find that Common Lisp just feels better when working interactively in a decent environment (which is emacs/Slime for me) 2021-03-07T04:54:18Z ex_nihilo: geiser works pretty well with Chez Scheme or MIT Scheme, and racket-mode works pretty well with Racket, but both feel clunky compared with CL and Slime 2021-03-07T04:54:36Z beach: Interesting. 2021-03-07T04:55:29Z beach: I think the most significant weakness of Common Lisp is our mediocre tools. But you are saying that Scheme tools are even worse? 2021-03-07T04:55:38Z purpleLizard: I arrived at common lisp because I didn't really find what I liked in scheme ... for various reasons 2021-03-07T04:56:26Z ex_nihilo: beach: I guess I am saying that ;) 2021-03-07T04:57:30Z ex_nihilo: beach: with Scheme I have had a lot more problems with crashing the repl, for example 2021-03-07T04:57:39Z beach: Hmm. 2021-03-07T05:00:09Z ex_nihilo: beach: I have heard more than once that the state of CL tooling used to be much better; are there any particular grievances that you have wrt mediocre tools? 2021-03-07T05:01:16Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-07T05:02:56Z beach: None of the free Common Lisp implementations provides a real debugger where you can set breakpoints, step, and inspect variables. Staring at a backtrace when things go wrong is not what I call a "debugger", as my paper explains: http://metamodular.com/SICL/sicl-debugging.pdf 2021-03-07T05:04:22Z beach: And there are many situations where the output of the compiler is not clickable, so you end up looking at compiler messages and trying to match them to the source code manually. 2021-03-07T05:05:45Z beach: But we are working on improving the situation. We just need a few more years. :) 2021-03-07T05:06:40Z purpleLizard: neat project 2021-03-07T05:14:58Z beach: Thanks. 2021-03-07T05:18:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-07T05:19:12Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-03-07T05:20:11Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2021-03-07T05:20:56Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-07T05:26:39Z ech_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-07T05:28:10Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-03-07T05:40:34Z White_Flame: ex_nihilo: the state of CL tooling when there were major commercial offerings of Lisp OSes is probably when they were better 2021-03-07T05:40:57Z White_Flame: emacs is basically a pale imitation of a lisp os (and elisp is a pale imitation of CL) 2021-03-07T05:41:47Z White_Flame: but, we're not yet back to full daily driver lisp OSes 2021-03-07T05:42:08Z White_Flame: until then, emacs/slime is pretty much the premiere "IDE" for CL development 2021-03-07T05:43:15Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-07T05:48:24Z thmprover quit (Quit: And Let's Away, to Part the Glories of This Happy Day) 2021-03-07T05:51:32Z beach: And it won't have to be a bootable OS to be useful. An IDE with most of the good features would be a great step in the right direction. 2021-03-07T05:56:14Z _z_ joined #lisp 2021-03-07T05:56:24Z _z_ left #lisp 2021-03-07T05:56:45Z moon-child: the next real lisp os will probably run under linux as pid 1, at least to start 2021-03-07T05:56:47Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2021-03-07T05:57:15Z moon-child: (maybe not probably. But I certainly think it's reasonably likely) 2021-03-07T05:59:44Z purpleLizard: beach: what features do lisp programmers want in an IDE? 2021-03-07T06:00:07Z purpleLizard: apart from the debugger ;) 2021-03-07T06:00:07Z toop quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-07T06:00:13Z _z_ joined #lisp 2021-03-07T06:00:33Z _z_: is there a dialect of lisp that doesnt require the lisp virtual machine 2021-03-07T06:00:52Z beach: purpleLizard: Most Lisp programmers seem to think that Emacs+SLIME is the best IDE every, no matter the language. 2021-03-07T06:01:04Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-07T06:02:04Z beach: _z_: Not sure what that means, but this channel is specifically dedicated to Common Lisp, so other dialects are off topic. It is not even widely agreed upon what would qualify as a Lisp dialect. 2021-03-07T06:03:12Z beach: _z_: Every language needs a "run time". For C, that run time is Unix. Languages that diverge a lot from C need their own. For instance, you would absolutely need a garbage collector. 2021-03-07T06:03:15Z purpleLizard: I like the idea behind emacs, but I found it pretty meh 2021-03-07T06:03:57Z purpleLizard: windows also has a C runtime 2021-03-07T06:04:12Z _z_: C has the standard library yes 2021-03-07T06:04:19Z beach: When I say "Unix" I include Windows. They are basically the same. 2021-03-07T06:04:31Z _z_: but the standard library is not always unix specific 2021-03-07T06:04:39Z _z_: k 2021-03-07T06:04:59Z _z_: you can use C without the standard library too however 2021-03-07T06:05:49Z beach: _z_: That's very doubtful. You would need to rely on unspecified features that are defined by the particular compiler you use. 2021-03-07T06:06:17Z _z_: the standard library does not define the entire language 2021-03-07T06:06:46Z _z_: the features are the keywords and syntax really 2021-03-07T06:07:12Z moon-child: beach: the standard specifies a freestanding environment 2021-03-07T06:07:31Z _z_: I ask this because I was wondering how genera and mezzano work 2021-03-07T06:07:32Z beach: moon-child: Oh, OK. That's new since I last looked. 2021-03-07T06:08:10Z beach: _z_: What do you mean? 2021-03-07T06:08:36Z _z_: because how can it work when lisp requires the lisp VM 2021-03-07T06:08:38Z beach: _z_: There is nothing special about the way they work, as far as I am concerned. 2021-03-07T06:08:41Z _z_: common lisp* 2021-03-07T06:09:17Z beach: _z_: What is this Lisp VM you are talking about? There is no such thing in the Common Lisp standard. 2021-03-07T06:09:37Z _z_: https://www.quora.com/What-would-it-take-to-write-an-OS-in-LISP 2021-03-07T06:09:54Z beach: _z_: But both operating systems contain code for the garbage collector and other basic features needed by the language. 2021-03-07T06:10:16Z _z_: C has no garbage colleciton 2021-03-07T06:10:52Z beach: _z_: No, but a language like Common Lisp would be difficult to even imagine without one. 2021-03-07T06:11:21Z purpleLizard: maybe he's talking about the implicit vm? 2021-03-07T06:11:26Z _z_: Im not sure how mezzano and such run on bare metal 2021-03-07T06:11:31Z beach: _z_: Fralley is misinformed. 2021-03-07T06:11:57Z beach: _z_: What is it that you have problems with? I can't see any difficulties. 2021-03-07T06:12:17Z _z_: oh 2021-03-07T06:12:31Z beach: purpleLizard: Given that he spells it with all capital letters, I think he is just ignorant. 2021-03-07T06:12:46Z Nilby: Here's a great version of Lisp that doesn't require a "VM": http://simh.trailing-edge.com/kits/lispswre.zip. But it does have a GC in 124 lines of assembly code. 2021-03-07T06:13:49Z ex_nihilo: _z_: some CL implementations have a vm; some compile to native code: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/913671/are-there-lisp-native-code-compilers 2021-03-07T06:14:11Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-07T06:15:07Z beach: _z_: Common Lisp runs fine on stock hardware these days. Most modern implementations compile to native code. For a bootable OS, you just need the code that the processor requires in order to start running. 2021-03-07T06:15:28Z _z_: cool 2021-03-07T06:15:40Z xanderle_ joined #lisp 2021-03-07T06:16:51Z beach: It's amazing how people can be so simultaneously opinionated and ignorant as Fralley shows here. 2021-03-07T06:18:50Z xanderle quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-07T06:19:00Z Nilby: Some people have a habit/career of writing complete bullshit on quora. 2021-03-07T06:19:32Z beach: Oh. I see. Never heard of Quora before. Thanks for letting me know I can safely ignore it. 2021-03-07T06:21:15Z _z_: yeah im sick of quora spamming my gmail 2021-03-07T06:23:10Z beach: _z_: So was that the trouble you had with understanding? You didn't know that Common Lisp compilers generate native code? 2021-03-07T06:23:28Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-03-07T06:24:32Z _z_: I knew lisp compiled to assembler 2021-03-07T06:24:46Z _z_: yes 2021-03-07T06:25:21Z _z_: but I thought you needed to run lisp in a VM and so an "Real" OS wouldnt be possible 2021-03-07T06:25:57Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-07T06:26:33Z beach: Actually, a typical Common Lisp compiler doesn't generate traditional assembly code. They might have some internal representation of machine instructions instead. 2021-03-07T06:27:55Z beach: I am not sure what such a "VM" would consist of and that couldn't also be written in Common Lisp. 2021-03-07T06:29:51Z phantomics quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-07T06:30:03Z elflng quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-07T06:30:21Z phantomics joined #lisp 2021-03-07T06:32:58Z _z_: I heard theres embedded lisp 2021-03-07T06:34:46Z beach: Are you referring to ECL? 2021-03-07T06:35:29Z beach: It was designed to be embeddable in applications written in C. But jackdaniel will know more. 2021-03-07T06:45:36Z marusich joined #lisp 2021-03-07T06:45:37Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-07T06:47:17Z purpleLizard quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2021-03-07T06:48:12Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp 2021-03-07T06:48:50Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-07T06:49:38Z _jrjsmrtn quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-07T06:51:43Z flazh quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-07T06:52:05Z flazh joined #lisp 2021-03-07T07:12:37Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-07T07:19:22Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-07T07:19:35Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-07T07:21:23Z elflng joined #lisp 2021-03-07T07:26:25Z tiwEllien joined #lisp 2021-03-07T07:33:48Z ex_nihilo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-07T07:34:02Z tiwEllien quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-07T07:34:45Z tiwEllien joined #lisp 2021-03-07T07:38:20Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-07T07:40:55Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-07T07:41:16Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-07T07:41:20Z mindCrime quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-07T07:42:33Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-07T07:44:49Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-07T07:52:35Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-07T07:55:45Z epony quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-07T07:56:19Z ex_nihilo joined #lisp 2021-03-07T07:59:34Z JokerAscensionEx quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-07T08:06:53Z iskander quit (Quit: bye) 2021-03-07T08:09:54Z JokerAscensionEx joined #lisp 2021-03-07T08:15:08Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2021-03-07T08:15:26Z epony joined #lisp 2021-03-07T08:16:19Z jackdaniel: _z_: this short paper may be a good reference: http://pages.di.unipi.it/attardi/Paper/LUV94.pdf -- ecl doesn't work exactly like that anymore, but this gives a good overview of some concepts 2021-03-07T08:16:53Z jackdaniel: most notably blending different runtimes in a single common runtime (based on C) 2021-03-07T08:18:55Z tiwEllien quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-07T08:20:08Z tiwEllien joined #lisp 2021-03-07T08:20:44Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-07T08:22:32Z froggey joined #lisp 2021-03-07T08:23:16Z surabax joined #lisp 2021-03-07T08:24:55Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-03-07T08:27:13Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-07T08:30:51Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-07T08:39:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-07T08:41:10Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2021-03-07T08:54:18Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-07T09:01:21Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-07T09:05:10Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-07T09:08:02Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-03-07T09:11:45Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-07T09:12:00Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2021-03-07T09:20:56Z rtypo joined #lisp 2021-03-07T09:21:14Z ex_nihilo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-07T09:26:37Z contrapunctus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-07T09:28:27Z zupss joined #lisp 2021-03-07T09:30:55Z iskander quit (Quit: bye) 2021-03-07T09:37:09Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-07T09:40:29Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-07T09:47:14Z ewd joined #lisp 2021-03-07T10:03:22Z kopiyka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-07T10:09:58Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-03-07T10:12:08Z _z_: jackdaniel take a look thx 2021-03-07T10:14:08Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-07T10:14:35Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-03-07T10:15:45Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-03-07T10:45:30Z johannes_ joined #lisp 2021-03-07T10:46:52Z johannes_ is now known as kenran 2021-03-07T10:47:50Z retropikzel joined #lisp 2021-03-07T10:48:39Z heisig joined #lisp 2021-03-07T11:00:06Z vegansbane6963 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-03-07T11:07:57Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-03-07T11:10:32Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-07T11:10:55Z tiwEllien quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-07T11:11:15Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-07T11:12:12Z tiwEllien joined #lisp 2021-03-07T11:15:56Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-07T11:18:37Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-03-07T11:22:57Z kenran quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-07T11:22:58Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-07T11:27:09Z ewd quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-07T11:29:28Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-03-07T11:33:29Z gj joined #lisp 2021-03-07T11:45:44Z gj quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-07T12:16:57Z retropikzel quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-07T12:25:09Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-07T12:30:57Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-03-07T12:38:56Z andrei-n joined #lisp 2021-03-07T12:38:56Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-07T12:39:09Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-07T12:45:14Z Noisytoot quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-07T12:50:11Z ewd joined #lisp 2021-03-07T12:51:19Z aindilis joined #lisp 2021-03-07T13:00:32Z Noisytoot joined #lisp 2021-03-07T13:08:38Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-07T13:14:20Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-03-07T13:15:16Z hiroaki__ joined #lisp 2021-03-07T13:20:34Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-07T13:21:05Z johannes_ joined #lisp 2021-03-07T13:21:05Z johannes_ is now known as kenran 2021-03-07T13:22:54Z nicktick joined #lisp 2021-03-07T13:23:48Z Noisytoot quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-07T13:26:24Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-07T13:26:39Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-07T13:26:59Z Noisytoot joined #lisp 2021-03-07T13:29:14Z gitgood joined #lisp 2021-03-07T13:29:14Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-07T13:29:35Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-07T13:32:04Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-07T13:33:33Z Noisytoot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-07T13:34:35Z Noisytoot joined #lisp 2021-03-07T13:36:32Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-03-07T13:39:16Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1) 2021-03-07T13:39:31Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-03-07T13:41:39Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-07T13:42:08Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-07T13:49:22Z iskander quit (Quit: bye) 2021-03-07T13:56:38Z contrapunctus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-07T13:58:09Z mrchampion quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-07T14:06:16Z mfiano: Ran my lines of code report script in the wrong directory. Wanted to check on my project, but ran it in the parent CL code directory. Wow, never knew I wrote 803kloc :) 2021-03-07T14:08:26Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2021-03-07T14:09:26Z tiwEllien quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-07T14:10:24Z tiwEllien joined #lisp 2021-03-07T14:11:33Z supercoven joined #lisp 2021-03-07T14:17:54Z ex_nihilo joined #lisp 2021-03-07T14:20:21Z ex_nihilo quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-07T14:22:04Z Nilby: That's an awful lot of Lisp code. Did you really count that right? 2021-03-07T14:22:45Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-07T14:22:48Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-07T14:22:57Z mfiano: Yeah, I'm afraid to know what the count is after macro expansions for macros I have wrote. This is the effect of 12 hours a day of 15 years though. 2021-03-07T14:22:58Z Nilby: That's nearly 1/6 of everything in quicklisp. 2021-03-07T14:23:48Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-07T14:23:51Z tiwEllien quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-07T14:23:57Z Trieste quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-07T14:24:44Z _death: does it contain tables of data? 2021-03-07T14:24:48Z tiwEllien joined #lisp 2021-03-07T14:25:30Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-07T14:25:42Z mfiano: _death: For the most part, just that glsl-metadata project I showed you 2021-03-07T14:26:11Z mfiano: My game math library is roughly 15kloc, which is included in Quicklisp, so subtract that and others from that 1/6 figure 2021-03-07T14:26:33Z Nilby: Also, for most people the code checked out in the repo is only the code that survived. There's usually a lot of dead code in the git history. 2021-03-07T14:27:16Z mfiano: 90% of my code was never published to Quicklisp or in any public repository 2021-03-07T14:29:31Z Nilby is feeling the true weight of all the unpublished and gone code. 2021-03-07T14:30:25Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-07T14:32:08Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp 2021-03-07T14:33:05Z long4mud quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-07T14:34:32Z eoyath quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-07T14:35:01Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-07T14:35:12Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-07T14:39:54Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-07T14:40:52Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp 2021-03-07T14:44:59Z add^_ joined #lisp 2021-03-07T14:51:32Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-07T14:51:50Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-03-07T15:04:28Z ech joined #lisp 2021-03-07T15:04:36Z mrchampion joined #lisp 2021-03-07T15:06:37Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-03-07T15:14:27Z massma joined #lisp 2021-03-07T15:18:02Z tiwEllien quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-07T15:19:03Z tiwEllien joined #lisp 2021-03-07T15:24:24Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-07T15:33:52Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-07T15:35:10Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-03-07T15:36:02Z kenran quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-07T15:39:42Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-07T15:40:08Z gitgood quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-07T15:47:08Z johannes_ joined #lisp 2021-03-07T15:47:08Z johannes_ is now known as kenran 2021-03-07T15:51:21Z Trieste joined #lisp 2021-03-07T15:53:54Z montxero joined #lisp 2021-03-07T15:56:05Z dddddd quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-07T15:58:47Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-07T16:01:35Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-03-07T16:08:40Z Fare joined #lisp 2021-03-07T16:09:03Z dddddd joined #lisp 2021-03-07T16:09:46Z iskander quit (Quit: bye) 2021-03-07T16:22:08Z _z_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-07T16:23:02Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-07T16:25:28Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-07T16:28:00Z kenran quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-07T16:28:24Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-07T16:32:37Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-07T16:34:12Z tiwEllien quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-07T16:34:44Z ym joined #lisp 2021-03-07T16:34:51Z tiwEllien joined #lisp 2021-03-07T16:35:07Z ym is now known as Guest58262 2021-03-07T16:36:02Z Guest58262 quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-07T16:42:16Z ewd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-07T16:44:21Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-07T16:46:02Z kini quit (Quit: bye) 2021-03-07T16:48:33Z waleee-cl joined #lisp 2021-03-07T16:50:07Z kini joined #lisp 2021-03-07T16:54:50Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-07T17:04:10Z em: I'm no expert in coding AT ALL. I'm barely a hobbyist and I struggle a lot, but I think it's crazy to poke fun at lisp for all its parentheses when other languages end with stuff that looks like this: ;});}); 2021-03-07T17:06:30Z beach: It is. But then, people need to defend their (often wrong) choices in life, or else their heads will blow up. 2021-03-07T17:07:38Z curtosis quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-07T17:16:41Z Alfr: em, likely the reason why they want to close pending delimiters on separate lines. 2021-03-07T17:17:42Z jerme_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-07T17:17:42Z terpri_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-07T17:17:42Z luna_is_here quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-07T17:17:42Z Oddity- quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-07T17:17:42Z madand quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-07T17:17:42Z bjorkintosh quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-07T17:17:42Z cpt_nemo quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-07T17:17:42Z lottaquestions_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-07T17:17:43Z gko quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-07T17:17:43Z eschatologist quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-07T17:17:43Z sgithens quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-07T17:17:43Z jonathan- quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-07T17:17:43Z avicenna quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-07T17:17:43Z housel quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-07T17:17:43Z summerisle quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-07T17:17:43Z greaser|q quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-07T17:17:43Z drdo quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-07T17:17:43Z johs quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-07T17:17:43Z ilmu quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-07T17:17:43Z Patzy quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-07T17:17:43Z gendl quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-07T17:17:43Z mpontillo quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-07T17:17:43Z ffwacom quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-07T17:17:43Z chewbranca quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-07T17:17:43Z lukego quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-07T17:17:43Z voidlily quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-07T17:17:43Z p_l quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-07T17:17:43Z HDurer quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-07T17:17:43Z seisatsu_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-07T17:17:43Z spacebat2 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-07T17:17:43Z physpi quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-07T17:17:43Z ck_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-07T17:17:43Z femi quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-07T17:17:59Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2021-03-07T17:17:59Z ck_ joined #lisp 2021-03-07T17:18:00Z madand joined #lisp 2021-03-07T17:18:00Z HDurer joined #lisp 2021-03-07T17:18:03Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2021-03-07T17:18:06Z ilmu joined #lisp 2021-03-07T17:18:07Z terpri_ joined #lisp 2021-03-07T17:18:15Z jonathan- joined #lisp 2021-03-07T17:18:17Z sgithens joined #lisp 2021-03-07T17:18:18Z p_l joined #lisp 2021-03-07T17:18:21Z mpontillo joined #lisp 2021-03-07T17:18:23Z ffwacom joined #lisp 2021-03-07T17:18:25Z chewbranca joined #lisp 2021-03-07T17:18:25Z drdo joined #lisp 2021-03-07T17:18:49Z seisatsu joined #lisp 2021-03-07T17:18:50Z thmprover joined #lisp 2021-03-07T17:18:50Z Nilby: Making fun of Lisp for parentheses seem like making fun of an elephant for it's trunk. It looks funnny, but it's an awesome feature. One could just make of it being old and having funny names, which is legit. 2021-03-07T17:19:00Z gendl joined #lisp 2021-03-07T17:19:07Z luna_is_here joined #lisp 2021-03-07T17:19:21Z physpi joined #lisp 2021-03-07T17:19:23Z johs joined #lisp 2021-03-07T17:19:23Z lukego joined #lisp 2021-03-07T17:19:23Z avicenna joined #lisp 2021-03-07T17:19:23Z Patzy joined #lisp 2021-03-07T17:19:23Z gko joined #lisp 2021-03-07T17:19:23Z greaser|q joined #lisp 2021-03-07T17:19:23Z jerme_ joined #lisp 2021-03-07T17:19:23Z housel joined #lisp 2021-03-07T17:19:23Z voidlily joined #lisp 2021-03-07T17:19:23Z spacebat2 joined #lisp 2021-03-07T17:20:21Z Oddity joined #lisp 2021-03-07T17:20:27Z lottaquestions_ joined #lisp 2021-03-07T17:20:31Z femi joined #lisp 2021-03-07T17:20:56Z even4void[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-07T17:21:29Z Patzy is now known as Guest19918 2021-03-07T17:21:37Z infra_red[m] quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-07T17:21:50Z theothornhill[m] quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-07T17:22:06Z summerisle joined #lisp 2021-03-07T17:22:55Z cloudy[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-07T17:23:02Z cpt_nemo joined #lisp 2021-03-07T17:23:39Z ms[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-07T17:23:55Z susam quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-07T17:24:13Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-03-07T17:24:13Z jdormit quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-07T17:24:18Z sepanko_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-07T17:24:18Z arichiardi[m] quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-07T17:24:18Z ey[m] quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-07T17:24:21Z loke[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-07T17:24:26Z quanta[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-07T17:24:41Z deselby quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-07T17:24:45Z posthuman_egrego quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-07T17:24:56Z katco quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-07T17:25:04Z MrtnDk[m] quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-07T17:25:04Z ThaEwat quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-07T17:25:11Z harlchen[m] quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-07T17:25:12Z Gnuxie[m] quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-07T17:25:12Z etimmons quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-07T17:25:15Z kreyren quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-07T17:25:32Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-07T17:25:33Z dmiles[m] quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-07T17:28:10Z thmprover: OK, I'm arguing with myself about literate programming in Common Lisp. I'm writing some educational numerical analysis, and I'd like to explain how to derive the code from mathematics. There are two ways I can see how to write "literate lisp": (1) like vanilla literate programming (as code snippets in a PDF surrounded by commentary), (2) encoding the comments and derivations as S-expressions. 2021-03-07T17:29:14Z Jeanne-Kamikaze joined #lisp 2021-03-07T17:29:38Z thmprover: I'm uncertain about the second approach, but it feels more "Lispy" to me. 2021-03-07T17:30:28Z equwal quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-07T17:32:30Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-07T17:36:58Z Nilby: I'd do the second way, but it seems like it could be distracting from writing to set up. Anyway there's things like cl-pdf, ccldoc, or CommonDoc/parenml. But to a fool like me, math makes more sense in Lisp than in math notation. 2021-03-07T17:37:55Z even4void[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-07T17:38:12Z infra_red[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-07T17:40:35Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-07T17:40:49Z thmprover: Nilby: Ah, CommonDoc/parenml looks quite good, thanks. 2021-03-07T17:41:05Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-07T17:41:52Z theothornhill[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-07T17:42:59Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-07T17:47:34Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-03-07T17:54:02Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-07T17:57:30Z cloudy[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-07T17:58:59Z thmprover: Hmm...I wish there were more examples on how to use parenml, though...or some documentation... 2021-03-07T17:59:42Z kevingal_ joined #lisp 2021-03-07T18:01:37Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-07T18:06:09Z jdormit joined #lisp 2021-03-07T18:06:11Z ms[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-07T18:10:17Z long4mud joined #lisp 2021-03-07T18:12:44Z ey[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-07T18:14:33Z sepanko_ joined #lisp 2021-03-07T18:14:36Z arichiardi[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-07T18:14:59Z susam joined #lisp 2021-03-07T18:19:10Z gitgood joined #lisp 2021-03-07T18:21:55Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-07T18:24:53Z loke[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-07T18:27:40Z curtosis joined #lisp 2021-03-07T18:27:54Z harlchen[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-07T18:27:59Z etimmons joined #lisp 2021-03-07T18:28:12Z posthuman_egrego joined #lisp 2021-03-07T18:30:39Z equwal joined #lisp 2021-03-07T18:34:29Z quanta[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-07T18:34:36Z puchacz joined #lisp 2021-03-07T18:36:37Z choegusung joined #lisp 2021-03-07T18:39:42Z deselby joined #lisp 2021-03-07T18:40:23Z katco joined #lisp 2021-03-07T18:40:41Z Gnuxie[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-07T18:41:38Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-07T18:41:51Z notzmv is now known as Guest24956 2021-03-07T18:43:18Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-07T18:43:36Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-07T18:44:36Z ThaEwat joined #lisp 2021-03-07T18:45:02Z dmiles[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-07T18:46:05Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2021-03-07T18:46:25Z kreyren joined #lisp 2021-03-07T18:46:52Z zxcvz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-07T18:48:14Z ggoes quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3) 2021-03-07T18:48:18Z MrtnDk[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-07T18:48:27Z supercoven_ joined #lisp 2021-03-07T18:49:06Z choegusung quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-07T18:51:43Z supercoven quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-07T18:58:18Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-07T18:59:12Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-07T19:00:34Z kini quit (Quit: bye) 2021-03-07T19:02:08Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-07T19:04:16Z kini joined #lisp 2021-03-07T19:04:16Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-07T19:05:03Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-07T19:11:21Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-07T19:11:41Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-07T19:13:58Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-07T19:14:23Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-07T19:14:23Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2021-03-07T19:14:23Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-07T19:14:32Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-07T19:14:49Z ggoes joined #lisp 2021-03-07T19:19:06Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-07T19:20:24Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-07T19:22:34Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-07T19:23:37Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-07T19:26:48Z kini quit (Quit: bye) 2021-03-07T19:28:56Z gitgoood joined #lisp 2021-03-07T19:28:56Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-07T19:29:04Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-07T19:30:13Z mogglehud joined #lisp 2021-03-07T19:31:50Z gitgood quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-07T19:32:35Z Guest24956 is now known as zmv 2021-03-07T19:33:09Z zmv is now known as notzmv 2021-03-07T19:33:09Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-07T19:37:03Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2021-03-07T19:37:36Z kini joined #lisp 2021-03-07T19:38:33Z Josh_2: Hi, how can I test if a list is starts with ''() ? 2021-03-07T19:39:10Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-07T19:39:20Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-07T19:39:51Z daniel1302_ quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-07T19:40:15Z daniel1302 joined #lisp 2021-03-07T19:43:56Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-07T19:44:14Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-07T19:46:18Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-07T19:46:30Z ex_nihilo joined #lisp 2021-03-07T19:46:34Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-07T19:52:59Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-07T19:53:53Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-03-07T19:54:05Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-07T19:56:21Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-07T19:57:08Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-07T20:01:52Z jackdaniel: this question is not comprehensible 2021-03-07T20:02:59Z Josh_2: disregard that one, I've got a new one, hopefully comprehensible :P 2021-03-07T20:10:43Z Josh_2: well 2021-03-07T20:11:49Z Josh_2: I just had to use eval to get rid of a ' so that I get consistent output between a list generated like `( ..) and a list generated like `'(.. ) 2021-03-07T20:12:29Z Josh_2: not sure if It's appropriate or not 2021-03-07T20:12:37Z aeth: no 2021-03-07T20:12:47Z aeth: ''(foo) is just sugar for (quote (quote foo)) 2021-03-07T20:13:04Z aeth: So you can parse it like a list, you don't need to eval it 2021-03-07T20:13:32Z Josh_2: well I tried just using (rest list) as the arg but the returned results werent consistent 2021-03-07T20:13:56Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2021-03-07T20:15:50Z Josh_2: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2330#2330 here 2021-03-07T20:17:14Z Josh_2: when I get rid of eval I get varying results between the `( ) and `'( ) lists, I tried using something like (rest list) when (first list) was eql to 'quote 2021-03-07T20:18:09Z Josh_2: I'm basically tryna write a compiler-macro to automatically compile templates when they are constants ie `'( ) lists 2021-03-07T20:18:10Z jackdaniel: when you have ''(a b c) it is equivalent to (quote (quote (a b c)) 2021-03-07T20:18:15Z jackdaniel: ) 2021-03-07T20:18:33Z jackdaniel: so however you want to access the list, you should start from this representation 2021-03-07T20:19:18Z jackdaniel: (cdr (quote (quote (a b c)))) ;-> (quote (a b c)) 2021-03-07T20:19:41Z jackdaniel: etc 2021-03-07T20:19:43Z Josh_2: yes but I don't think I'm using '' 2021-03-07T20:19:49Z jackdaniel: I forgot a quote there 2021-03-07T20:19:55Z Josh_2: I'm using `'() 2021-03-07T20:21:02Z jackdaniel: `'() is equivalent to (list '(quote nil)), so basically (quote (quote nil)) 2021-03-07T20:21:09Z Josh_2: ah I see 2021-03-07T20:21:16Z aeth: I think this is the test for quoted and you then separately have to test the cadr if you want its contents to be something specific: (defun quoted-p (form) (and (listp form) (eql (car form) 'quote) (endp (cddr form)))) 2021-03-07T20:21:29Z jackdaniel: its late, I might have forgot some parenthesis, but I hope you will figure this out 2021-03-07T20:21:48Z aeth: Note, though that (quoted-p ''a) and (quoted-p `'a) would be T but (quoted-p 'a) would not because the REPL is evaluating the 'a input once 2021-03-07T20:22:47Z aeth: So it's no longer quoted at runtime. 2021-03-07T20:24:56Z aeth: and (quoted-p '`a) would also be false even though quasiquoting like that (no unquoting) is effectively the same as quoting. 2021-03-07T20:25:06Z Josh_2: Okay 2021-03-07T20:25:21Z Josh_2: This is what I have now 2021-03-07T20:25:41Z Josh_2: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2330#2330 2021-03-07T20:26:30Z Josh_2: I'm not sure why I have to use (first ..) to get a result equiv to an input that is unquoted 2021-03-07T20:26:42Z aeth: I guess if you want it to match in style you would replace CAR with FIRSt and CDDR with (rest (rest ...)) 2021-03-07T20:26:55Z aeth: (in my function) 2021-03-07T20:27:17Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-07T20:27:20Z Josh_2: Good point 2021-03-07T20:27:33Z Josh_2: Seems to be working now, thanks! 2021-03-07T20:27:35Z aeth: I personally tend to use the CXRs for syntax where DESTRUCTURING-BIND isn't desirable (it usually is, since errors are good, but in this case, it would error instead of returning NIL) 2021-03-07T20:28:24Z aeth: Mainly because working with syntax tends to have you wind up with cadr, cddr, etc. 2021-03-07T20:28:50Z Josh_2: Now my compiler-macro should automatically compile templates when they start with ' 2021-03-07T20:29:00Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-03-07T20:32:41Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-03-07T20:33:58Z anticrisis quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-07T20:35:53Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-07T20:38:00Z mfiano: ''(foo) is not (quote (quote foo)) 2021-03-07T20:39:15Z massma quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 26.1) 2021-03-07T20:39:35Z jackdaniel: yes, it is (quote foo) ; for my defense, I've added a disclaimer that it is late :) 2021-03-07T20:41:21Z iskander quit (Quit: bye) 2021-03-07T20:42:20Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-03-07T20:45:05Z rgherdt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-07T20:46:27Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2021-03-07T20:52:43Z antonv joined #lisp 2021-03-07T21:00:05Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-03-07T21:00:28Z kini quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-07T21:01:49Z kini joined #lisp 2021-03-07T21:04:04Z aeth: my bad, it's (defun quoted-p (form) (and (listp form) (eql (car form) 'quote) (cdr form) (endp (cddr form)))) 2021-03-07T21:04:11Z aeth: You have to make sure the cdr exists and isn't ENDP 2021-03-07T21:04:19Z aeth: i.e. (quoted-p '(quote)) => NIL 2021-03-07T21:04:42Z aeth: But you have to try really hard to actually get that edge case because e.g. (quote) is an error 2021-03-07T21:05:40Z Cthulhux` quit (Quit: ne praeteriverit priusquam obesa cantaverit) 2021-03-07T21:15:05Z gxt quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-07T21:15:44Z gxt joined #lisp 2021-03-07T21:23:55Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-07T21:27:02Z Josh_2: Okay no problems 2021-03-07T21:27:04Z Josh_2: Thanks for the help 2021-03-07T21:29:26Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-07T21:33:50Z cage_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-07T21:39:15Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-07T21:43:36Z Fare joined #lisp 2021-03-07T21:45:16Z Cthulhux joined #lisp 2021-03-07T21:46:43Z andrei-n quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-07T21:59:22Z loli quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-03-07T22:01:30Z loli joined #lisp 2021-03-07T22:03:28Z Xach quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-07T22:04:25Z Xach joined #lisp 2021-03-07T22:05:36Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-07T22:07:31Z ech quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-07T22:08:07Z aartaka_d quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-07T22:08:13Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-07T22:13:09Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-07T22:13:38Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-07T22:13:53Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2021-03-07T22:15:02Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-07T22:17:47Z tiwEllien quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-07T22:22:09Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-07T22:32:07Z Cthulhux quit (Changing host) 2021-03-07T22:32:07Z Cthulhux joined #lisp 2021-03-07T22:40:42Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-07T22:43:55Z ech joined #lisp 2021-03-07T22:48:27Z puchacz quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-07T23:01:41Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-07T23:01:43Z choegusung joined #lisp 2021-03-07T23:10:46Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-07T23:13:11Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-07T23:15:02Z choegusung quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-07T23:16:13Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 28.0.50)) 2021-03-07T23:19:19Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-03-07T23:22:07Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-07T23:22:32Z matryoshka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-07T23:26:36Z kam1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-07T23:32:58Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-07T23:33:04Z akoana joined #lisp 2021-03-07T23:35:22Z kaiwulf joined #lisp 2021-03-07T23:38:26Z mogglehud quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-07T23:42:27Z dddddd quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-07T23:45:00Z dddddd joined #lisp 2021-03-07T23:48:38Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-07T23:50:33Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-07T23:53:58Z madage joined #lisp 2021-03-07T23:56:43Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-08T00:00:14Z joast quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-03-08T00:02:57Z Bourne quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-08T00:07:16Z Cthulhux quit (Quit: ne praeteriverit priusquam obesa cantaverit) 2021-03-08T00:07:29Z Cthulhux joined #lisp 2021-03-08T00:08:21Z aindilis quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T00:12:44Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-08T00:20:56Z joast joined #lisp 2021-03-08T00:26:06Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-08T00:30:10Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-08T00:32:24Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-08T00:34:24Z kevingal_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T00:34:24Z kevingal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T00:35:21Z nicktick joined #lisp 2021-03-08T00:47:44Z mindCrime_ quit (Excess Flood) 2021-03-08T00:48:08Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-08T00:48:09Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-08T00:54:27Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T00:55:29Z matryoshka joined #lisp 2021-03-08T01:00:12Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-08T01:05:48Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-08T01:11:15Z grobe0ba quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-08T01:11:26Z grobe0ba joined #lisp 2021-03-08T01:27:55Z rtypo quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-03-08T01:30:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T01:30:26Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-08T01:31:20Z loli quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-08T01:33:17Z loli joined #lisp 2021-03-08T01:45:26Z akoana left #lisp 2021-03-08T01:46:37Z loli quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-08T01:55:30Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T02:00:21Z gitgood joined #lisp 2021-03-08T02:01:31Z loli joined #lisp 2021-03-08T02:02:08Z gitgoood quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-08T02:03:00Z emacsoma1 quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-03-08T02:03:46Z loli quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-08T02:04:08Z emacsomancer joined #lisp 2021-03-08T02:05:28Z jonatack_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-08T02:05:42Z loli joined #lisp 2021-03-08T02:06:05Z wxie joined #lisp 2021-03-08T02:06:27Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-08T02:09:38Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-08T02:11:28Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2021-03-08T02:19:55Z semz joined #lisp 2021-03-08T02:25:38Z gitgood quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-08T02:26:19Z texno quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-08T02:30:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T02:30:27Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-08T02:39:23Z texno joined #lisp 2021-03-08T02:43:49Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2021-03-08T02:44:13Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-08T02:45:02Z jpli joined #lisp 2021-03-08T02:45:11Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2021-03-08T02:52:11Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-03-08T02:56:18Z antonv quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-08T02:57:30Z wxie quit (Quit: wxie) 2021-03-08T03:05:21Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-08T03:09:08Z troydm quit (Quit: What is Hope? That all of your wishes and all of your dreams come true? To turn back time because things were not supposed to happen like that (C) Rau Le Creuset) 2021-03-08T03:09:33Z troydm joined #lisp 2021-03-08T03:09:38Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-08T03:10:26Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-08T03:10:26Z fitzsim quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-08T03:16:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T03:16:27Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-08T03:19:14Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-08T03:31:09Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2021-03-08T03:36:49Z ech quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-08T03:42:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T03:43:07Z montxero quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-08T03:44:11Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2021-03-08T03:52:24Z anticrisis_ joined #lisp 2021-03-08T03:55:28Z anticrisis quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-08T03:55:53Z aindilis joined #lisp 2021-03-08T03:56:40Z Jeanne-Kamikaze quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-08T03:57:30Z aggin joined #lisp 2021-03-08T04:00:41Z aggin quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-08T04:01:31Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2021-03-08T04:02:12Z Alfr is now known as Guest55947 2021-03-08T04:02:16Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-03-08T04:04:52Z Guest55947 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-08T04:18:31Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-03-08T04:23:26Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-08T04:28:43Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-08T04:31:48Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-08T04:35:12Z thmprover quit (Quit: This parting was well made) 2021-03-08T04:36:18Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-08T04:55:56Z adam4567 joined #lisp 2021-03-08T05:01:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T05:01:26Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-08T05:06:09Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-03-08T05:16:43Z kaiwulf quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-08T05:23:25Z adam4567 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T05:23:41Z adam4567 joined #lisp 2021-03-08T05:31:36Z pankajsg quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2021-03-08T05:32:46Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-03-08T05:35:13Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-03-08T05:35:54Z marusich quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-08T05:49:59Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-08T05:58:50Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-08T06:11:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T06:11:24Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-08T06:22:12Z Alfr is now known as Guest30958 2021-03-08T06:22:16Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-03-08T06:24:52Z Guest30958 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-08T06:32:12Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-03-08T06:32:24Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-08T06:32:36Z Fare joined #lisp 2021-03-08T06:33:28Z aggin joined #lisp 2021-03-08T06:33:28Z aggin is now known as sda 2021-03-08T06:34:32Z sda: how do I make the string "!name: some-name" "

Name:

some-name
" ? 2021-03-08T06:34:38Z sda: using cl-ppcre preferrably 2021-03-08T06:38:48Z beach: Why do you need anything other than, say FORMAT? 2021-03-08T06:40:08Z sda: how would I do it in format ? 2021-03-08T06:40:08Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-08T06:40:34Z karlosz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T06:40:40Z beach: Well, it is hard to tell from your example what it is that you need exactly. I assume some-name is a variable? 2021-03-08T06:40:47Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-08T06:40:55Z sda: no its just a substring in a string 2021-03-08T06:41:28Z beach: So your example has two strings. Do you want to make both? 2021-03-08T06:41:35Z sda: I'm trying to convert the string "!name: some-name-could-be-anything" to "

Name:

some-name-could-be-anything
" 2021-03-08T06:41:42Z beach: Ah, that's different. 2021-03-08T06:41:57Z beach: You didn't say "convert". 2021-03-08T06:42:04Z flip214: sda: either use CL-PPCRE, or write a parser (eg. via ESRAP), or use CL:READ with a custom readtable and a few reader macros. 2021-03-08T06:42:37Z flip214: Depending on how much time you've spent with regular expressions I'd suggest on of the first two ways. 2021-03-08T06:42:55Z sda: well I've not done much with regex, just know the very basics 2021-03-08T06:43:11Z beach: sda: By the way, you can find code to read here: https://github.com/robert-strandh 2021-03-08T06:43:22Z Nilby: You'd have to specify what the syntax for "!name: some-name" is a little more precicely. For example can "name" have a #\space or a #\: in it? 2021-03-08T06:43:24Z beach: sda: It is not a secret place, so no need to PM me. 2021-03-08T06:43:28Z sda: I couldn't figure out how to extract some-name and use it while regex:replace 2021-03-08T06:43:35Z flip214: sda: do you have some regular grammer that you need? ! => h3, !! => h2, !!! => h1 or so? 2021-03-08T06:43:36Z sda: beach: thanks 2021-03-08T06:43:49Z sda: flip214: no just ! => h3 2021-03-08T06:44:12Z sda: Nilby: it can have a #\space, it cannot have a : 2021-03-08T06:44:16Z sda: #\: 2021-03-08T06:47:21Z flip214: sda: care to show your efforts? (via pastebin or so) 2021-03-08T06:47:40Z ldbeth: does WRITE-BYTE write the byte signed or unsigned? 2021-03-08T06:47:46Z Nilby: Here's a free and imperfect regex for you: (ppcre:scan "!([^: ]+):\\s*(.*)$" "!name: some-name") 2021-03-08T06:49:57Z jpli quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-03-08T06:50:22Z Nilby: But regexp can have some notorious troubles, so I find it's best to just manually parse out a simple string. 2021-03-08T06:50:58Z flip214: sda: for HTML generation I generally suggest to use CL-WHO, but if it's only that one line you needn't bother 2021-03-08T06:51:54Z sda: flip214: it's just that one line 2021-03-08T06:52:14Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-08T06:56:26Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-08T06:56:35Z flip214: well, (multiple-value-bind (full matches) (cl-ppcre:scan-to-strings "^!(.*?): *(.*)" input) ....) will give you the two parts you're interested in in (aref matches 0) and (... 1) 2021-03-08T06:57:36Z beach: Who was it that said that attempting to solve a problem using regular expressions results in two problems. 2021-03-08T06:57:37Z beach: ? 2021-03-08T06:58:44Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-08T06:58:49Z hiroaki__ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-08T06:59:09Z sda: hmm I think I should practice my regex 2021-03-08T06:59:21Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-08T06:59:22Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-08T07:00:52Z sda: btw what other alternatives exists for parsing stuff like this ? 2021-03-08T07:01:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T07:01:27Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-08T07:09:00Z sda quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-08T07:10:36Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-08T07:11:23Z hiroaki__ joined #lisp 2021-03-08T07:11:24Z ldbeth: well i figured that it is unsigned byte 2021-03-08T07:12:13Z ldbeth: \names 2021-03-08T07:15:06Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-08T07:15:10Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-08T07:19:14Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2021-03-08T07:21:13Z retropikzel joined #lisp 2021-03-08T07:23:24Z flip214: minion: memo for sda: Take a look at the CL library ESRAP. 2021-03-08T07:23:25Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell sda when he/she/it next speaks. 2021-03-08T07:33:42Z pranavats: minion: memo for sda: See also, cl-irregsexp and MaxPC parser combinators. 2021-03-08T07:33:42Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell sda when he/she/it next speaks. 2021-03-08T07:35:43Z gj joined #lisp 2021-03-08T07:36:08Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-03-08T07:39:00Z flip214: beach: yeah, there's a saying. still, for small, quick text manipulation, RE are as dense as it gets (in both senses of the word ;) 2021-03-08T07:41:06Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-03-08T07:41:51Z beach: Wow, chapter 4 of Land of Lisp is entitled "making decisions with conditions", but in fact it is about conditionALs. Also, on page 51 the author encourages the use of a list variable as a Boolean, and also reverses the IF branches compared to a proof by induction. 2021-03-08T07:42:06Z beach: This book contains so many problems I am getting really irritated. 2021-03-08T07:44:39Z marusich joined #lisp 2021-03-08T07:45:25Z beach: Also on page 51, the author claims that the expressions (), '(), nil, and 'nil are "equivalent" without stating the context that would make them so. 2021-03-08T07:45:45Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-03-08T07:46:10Z beach: No wonder so many people who come here have troubles with this stuff. We must start by making them forget lots of stuff they have "learned" from this book. 2021-03-08T07:47:25Z beach: And on one page CAR is a "function", but CDR is a "command". *sigh* 2021-03-08T07:47:52Z Nilby: I just looked at the pictures and jokes. I didn't even consider didactic robustness. 2021-03-08T07:48:35Z beach: The entire thing is written in a very sloppy way. I wonder who were the editors in charge of catching stuff like that. 2021-03-08T07:50:07Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-08T07:51:15Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-08T07:55:17Z Nilby: I don't trust what I read, but I think the spirit and enthusiasm expressed in that book is good. If one can be mostly correct and fun, that's an amazing achievement. 2021-03-08T07:55:38Z Nilby: As you know, even the CL spec is wrong. 2021-03-08T07:55:46Z Nilby: sometimes 2021-03-08T07:57:14Z Nilby: But I agree, technically improper things written about Lisp make me cringe. 2021-03-08T07:58:39Z beach: I don't think using the correct terminology consistently would take away any fun. 2021-03-08T08:00:09Z beach: Also, there is a large number of people, me included, who get so distracted by inconsistencies like this, that they have a hard time appreciating the message at all. 2021-03-08T08:00:39Z edgar-rft: WhenI learned Lisp in the 1990s every second tutorial still used plain lists as conditionals and I agree with beach that this caused me lots of confusion. 2021-03-08T08:00:56Z beach: A large part of technical writing is to avoid distracting the reader with inconsistencies like that. 2021-03-08T08:01:24Z Nilby: I basically agree. Which I why I learned from the spec, and looked at that book for entertainment or inspiration. 2021-03-08T08:02:02Z Nilby: Maybe someday we'll get an updated version 2021-03-08T08:03:10Z beach: edgar-rft: Also, have you ever seen a proof by induction that starts with the induction hypothesis and its consequences? Reading code that is structured like that forces the person reading the code to keep in mind stuff that should have been gotten out of the way first. 2021-03-08T08:03:47Z beach: One should ALWAYS start with the base case. 2021-03-08T08:03:54Z edgar-rft: I don't consider "Land of Lisp" as a spec replacement but the problem is that it's most often read by *beginners* and then it's important to avoid confusion by all means. 2021-03-08T08:04:04Z beach: Exactly! 2021-03-08T08:04:25Z beach: And in fact, beginners are the target audience, I would imagine. 2021-03-08T08:05:06Z tiwEllien joined #lisp 2021-03-08T08:07:32Z Nilby: I guess that's why SICP is so revered, since I think in manages to be fun and correct and builds the proof from the base. 2021-03-08T08:08:21Z beach: That sounds right. I certainly don't remember any distractions of this kind from SICP. And that's a good thing. 2021-03-08T08:09:56Z moon-child: I found sicp incredibly dry 2021-03-08T08:09:59Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-08T08:10:14Z moon-child: I mean it's very good, but certainly doesn't win any points for style 2021-03-08T08:10:32Z beach: moon-child: I hope you are not saying that inconsistencies and bad terminology make a book more interesting. 2021-03-08T08:10:43Z moon-child: the two are largely orthogonal 2021-03-08T08:10:50Z beach: Indeed. 2021-03-08T08:12:25Z edgar-rft: I'm still thankful to Conrad Barsky for writing a book that doesn't deter beginners with overly technical cruft but as it looks there had been some gaps during the production. 2021-03-08T08:12:26Z edgar-rft: I also assume that no-starch press is not a super-expensive publisher so we prably have to live with some deficiencies, but maybe there should be a note in the CLiki for example to inform beginners. 2021-03-08T08:14:42Z Nilby: I think Barsky makes some great points about the ethos of software with Lisp. 2021-03-08T08:15:44Z Nilby: But I also sometimes think it might be laugh-out-loud funny to see a formal semantics of CL like r5rs. 2021-03-08T08:17:29Z engblom: Is there any other book that would be better, but still a light read? 2021-03-08T08:17:52Z moon-child: I see pcl recommended a lot 2021-03-08T08:17:52Z edgar-rft: Nilby: isn't there enough BNF in the Hyperspec? :-) 2021-03-08T08:19:18Z edgar-rft: engblom: D. Touretzky's "Gentle introduction..." is *very* leightweight, P. Seibel's "Practical Common Lisp" comes next. 2021-03-08T08:19:41Z beach: But "Gentle" has problems of its own. 2021-03-08T08:20:28Z edgar-rft: beach: I only recommend if to people who don't even know what a computer is :-) 2021-03-08T08:20:37Z beach: Yeah, good plan. 2021-03-08T08:23:09Z edgar-rft: ...but it helped me to understand how symbols work in Lisp. 2021-03-08T08:23:43Z andrei-n joined #lisp 2021-03-08T08:27:16Z engblom: edgar-rft: "Gentle introduction..." seems to be very verbose: much text is used to explain trivial things 2021-03-08T08:27:29Z beach: edgar-rft: What did you learn about symbols from it? 2021-03-08T08:28:24Z beach: Actually, browsing "Gentle" now makes me think it is better than I remembered. 2021-03-08T08:28:52Z edgar-rft: engblom: I like to say that it's "Programming explained for Babies". If you have worked with other progranming languages before "Practical Common Lisp" is better 2021-03-08T08:31:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T08:31:25Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-08T08:31:29Z beach: I guess "Gentle" was written before a top-level SETQ/SETF of undefined variables was undefined behavior. 2021-03-08T08:32:14Z Nilby: I first resolved to figure out what the words lambda cddar rplaca meant, so I could cheat at a game. 2021-03-08T08:32:56Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-03-08T08:33:15Z edgar-rft: beach: I learned from Touretzky why a symbol can name a function and a variable at the same time and when it's used as what. Touretzky was the only book with a picture of all symbol slots (symbol-value, symbol-function, symbol-plist, docstring etc.) That picture helped me much when I was still new with Lisp. 2021-03-08T08:33:27Z gj quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-08T08:33:36Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-03-08T08:34:33Z beach: edgar-rft: That's what I suspected. Interestingly, that's often the wrong way of thinking about it. Certainly the SYMBOL-VALUE is wrong. 2021-03-08T08:34:55Z beach: But I guess it may help a newbie get a somewhat consistent model of things. 2021-03-08T08:35:04Z edgar-rft: I said "when I was new..." 2021-03-08T08:35:05Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-08T08:35:10Z beach: Sure. 2021-03-08T08:37:04Z beach: I would have much preferred that the chapter "Environment" in the standard would be about the global environment, and I would have preferred that SYMBOL-FUNCTION and FDEFINITION were specified there. 2021-03-08T08:37:44Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-08T08:41:35Z Nilby: It's weird, I think global environments were a thing that everyone knew, at the time of the spec, were necessary in practice for big things like Emacs or an OS, and that every big implementaion had, but that they didn't want to burden small implementations with. 2021-03-08T08:41:52Z beach: The code in Touretzky seems to have consistent indentation. That's a plus. Many books get that wrong. 2021-03-08T08:42:16Z epony quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-08T08:42:42Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-08T08:42:43Z beach: Nilby: Oh you mean first-class global environments? I just meant it as a model. 2021-03-08T08:43:04Z beach: The fact that it is "spread out" in a typical Common Lisp implementation doesn't make it less real. 2021-03-08T08:43:17Z beach: That's just an implementation detail. 2021-03-08T08:45:07Z Nilby: But I agree even conceptually, it's esay to miss when it's spread out. 2021-03-08T08:45:49Z beach: Yes, especially when the standard seems to encourage the reader to think about it that way. 2021-03-08T08:46:56Z beach: SYMBOL-FUNCTION is in the Symbols chapter. FDEFINITION is in the Data and Control Flow chapter. 2021-03-08T08:47:41Z beach: To me, they are both functions mapping names to functions in the global environment. 2021-03-08T08:48:59Z Nilby: I like the idea of an Environment chapter, especially if they were first class, but then what would the existing chapter be called? 2021-03-08T08:50:04Z Nilby: "Some Other Somewhat External Junk We Forgot To Mention" 2021-03-08T08:50:04Z beach: Good question. I need to think about that. Also, since it is a matter only of presentation, this issue could be fixed without altering the language. Maybe some future version of WSCL. 2021-03-08T08:50:10Z beach: Yeah. :) 2021-03-08T08:51:08Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-08T08:51:37Z anticrisis_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-08T08:54:06Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-08T08:54:31Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-08T08:58:29Z tiwEllien quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-08T08:59:48Z tiwEllien joined #lisp 2021-03-08T09:00:58Z surabax joined #lisp 2021-03-08T09:03:32Z pve joined #lisp 2021-03-08T09:04:24Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-08T09:05:11Z beach: I also like Touretzky's CONS diagrams. Those are pretty close to the what I use myself to explain lists to newbies. 2021-03-08T09:06:47Z luni quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-08T09:08:01Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-03-08T09:08:10Z beach: Ah, found a case of incorrect indentation. :) 2021-03-08T09:10:25Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-08T09:11:00Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-03-08T09:11:30Z beach: Many fewer problems than I thought. 2021-03-08T09:11:46Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-08T09:12:54Z beach: And he starts recursion with the base case. 2021-03-08T09:15:03Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-08T09:16:14Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-08T09:16:20Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2021-03-08T09:16:24Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-08T09:16:37Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-08T09:18:16Z gj joined #lisp 2021-03-08T09:20:42Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-08T09:21:08Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-08T09:22:50Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-08T09:26:32Z adam4567 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T09:27:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T09:27:27Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-08T09:28:01Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-03-08T09:35:07Z gitgood joined #lisp 2021-03-08T09:36:58Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-08T09:41:43Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-08T09:42:33Z kam1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-08T09:44:22Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-08T09:46:44Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-08T09:49:36Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-08T09:51:18Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-08T10:10:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T10:10:10Z retropikzel left #lisp 2021-03-08T10:10:27Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-08T10:13:50Z Cthulhux quit (Quit: ne praeteriverit priusquam obesa cantaverit) 2021-03-08T10:15:28Z Cthulhux joined #lisp 2021-03-08T10:15:28Z Cthulhux quit (Changing host) 2021-03-08T10:15:28Z Cthulhux joined #lisp 2021-03-08T10:20:08Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-08T10:21:48Z epony joined #lisp 2021-03-08T10:29:04Z edgar-rft quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-08T10:29:20Z edgar-xyz joined #lisp 2021-03-08T10:36:22Z yitzi quit (Quit: yitzi) 2021-03-08T10:38:37Z yitzi joined #lisp 2021-03-08T10:39:05Z yitzi quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-08T10:42:09Z kslt1` joined #lisp 2021-03-08T10:43:21Z edgar-xyz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-08T10:44:50Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2021-03-08T10:52:45Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-08T10:58:37Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T11:00:06Z vegansbane6963 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-03-08T11:04:00Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-08T11:05:05Z gj quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-08T11:07:25Z kevingal: beach: are you reading Land of Lisp out of some masochistic pleasure, or do you keep running into it in the wild? 2021-03-08T11:08:21Z beach: I am reading it because it is part of my job to keep me informed about the literature, so that I can then give advice to potential students of Common Lisp. 2021-03-08T11:09:40Z jeosol quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-08T11:10:05Z beach: So I guess, the former. :) 2021-03-08T11:10:10Z ldbeth looking up what is masochistic 2021-03-08T11:10:29Z kevingal: Fair enough! I've always thought that it makes sense to read books you don't like so that you can appreciate the ones that are more to your taste. 2021-03-08T11:10:39Z luni: maybe is simply more than a mere job... 2021-03-08T11:11:03Z luni: i should think at it like a mission or something like that 2021-03-08T11:11:20Z beach: luni: Right, my employer would not fire me if I omitted this book from my reading list. 2021-03-08T11:12:14Z kevingal: Re: Practical Common Lisp, I wouldn't recommend it as a learning resource. It describes features in excruciating detail and doesn't have exercises. Maybe it doesn't suit my style of learning. 2021-03-08T11:12:45Z beach: I personally never do the exercises, so I don't miss them when they are absent. 2021-03-08T11:13:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T11:13:07Z kevingal: I like using it as a reference. Or when I vaguely understand a feature and want a full review. 2021-03-08T11:13:07Z jeosol joined #lisp 2021-03-08T11:13:19Z flip214: beach: I believe you're not the target audience of LoL anyway 2021-03-08T11:13:25Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-08T11:13:45Z beach: flip214: You are definitely right. Hence my explanation for my reason for reading it. 2021-03-08T11:14:46Z edgar-rft: beach: not doing the exercises isn't really truely masochistic 2021-03-08T11:14:47Z flip214: well, curiosity is _always_ a valid reason, so I didn't think you'd need to explain anything 2021-03-08T11:14:50Z ldbeth never do the exercises, but will look the answers if it is provided 2021-03-08T11:15:27Z beach: edgar-rft: Sure. I meant, whenever I read text books in order to learn something, I never do the exercises. It saves a lot of time. :) 2021-03-08T11:15:37Z jackdaniel: books are overrated, the true lisper explores their innate deposit of wisdom and complain when the programming language does not match their intuition! :) 2021-03-08T11:16:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T11:16:11Z luni: flip214: i think that depends on the objects anyways 2021-03-08T11:16:25Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-08T11:16:34Z jackdaniel: (or asks on #lisp how to solve this particular topic being the beginner material) 2021-03-08T11:16:39Z edgar-rft: I also don't do the exercises, for exactly the same reasons, what is probably the reason why I never learn anything at all 2021-03-08T11:16:40Z luni: scientifically and technically speaking then yes 2021-03-08T11:16:59Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-08T11:17:40Z ldbeth: unless it is sold to students, a good book should always includes answers to exersices 2021-03-08T11:18:05Z jackdaniel: why wouldn't student's be allowed to see answers in the book they own? 2021-03-08T11:18:14Z jackdaniel: I mean - if they cheat, they cheat only themselves 2021-03-08T11:19:09Z ldbeth: good question, i don't know, maybe it's just the exercises are easy 2021-03-08T11:19:47Z jackdaniel: in the amop book, excercises are marked as easy, demanding, hard and open problems afair 2021-03-08T11:21:58Z kevingal: I can't be sure that I've learned anything unless there's a way to test my knowledge. I'm actually doing exercises from a textbook as we speak, haha. 2021-03-08T11:22:38Z kevingal: amop =Something Something Meta Object Protocol? 2021-03-08T11:22:59Z jackdaniel: the art of metaobject protocol 2021-03-08T11:23:46Z jackdaniel: that's a book when mop was first described 2021-03-08T11:24:24Z kevingal: Then again, maybe the fact that I do the exercises is the reason that I don't finish many books. 2021-03-08T11:24:29Z jackdaniel: you may find (for free) two chapters of this book as a reference of said protocol here http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/ 2021-03-08T11:25:19Z joga: hey... I just realized I borrowed amop to friend years ago and it's still there, thanks for mentioning it 2021-03-08T11:25:20Z kevingal: Thanks. I think it's on my reading list somewhere. 2021-03-08T11:25:37Z jackdaniel: sure 2021-03-08T11:25:46Z ldbeth: joga: sorry to your friend 2021-03-08T11:26:18Z joga: they also have a couple of other books :I 2021-03-08T11:26:26Z jackdaniel: is anyone aware of a library that offers a security model for common lisp? (i.e for various users) 2021-03-08T11:26:49Z jackdaniel: I saw a few ad-hoc solutions, but nothing crafted into a standalone abstraction 2021-03-08T11:27:16Z jackdaniel: i.e a library imlementing access control list or capabilities 2021-03-08T11:27:39Z rwcom60280385034 joined #lisp 2021-03-08T11:28:07Z jackdaniel: implementing* 2021-03-08T11:28:49Z hiroaki3 quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-03-08T11:28:51Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-03-08T11:29:49Z ldbeth: jackdaniel: SYNAPSE: A multi-microprecessor lisp machine 2021-03-08T11:30:34Z kevingal_ joined #lisp 2021-03-08T11:31:01Z jackdaniel: I'm not interested in LM, I'm interested in common lisp library (or, eventually, specification for such security model) 2021-03-08T11:32:52Z yonkunas quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-08T11:33:31Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-08T11:33:57Z ldbeth: Sounds like you need something a object-oriented access control thing, guess I haven't totally forget it then. http://www.object-oriented-security.org 2021-03-08T11:37:38Z jackdaniel: thanks, I'm loosely aware what is the capability based security model; what I don't know is whether someone attempted to use it in common lisp 2021-03-08T11:38:38Z jackdaniel: the site you have mentioned mentions passing "messages" between objects, in Common Lisp enforcing the capability would be probably baked into the generic function 2021-03-08T11:41:04Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-08T11:42:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T11:42:30Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-08T11:44:06Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T11:44:29Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-08T11:45:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T11:45:29Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-08T11:46:09Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-08T11:46:18Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-08T11:47:51Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-08T11:51:29Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-08T11:52:53Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-08T11:54:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T11:54:25Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-08T11:54:37Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-08T11:55:04Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T11:55:28Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-08T11:55:53Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-08T11:55:55Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-08T11:56:01Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-08T11:57:10Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-08T11:57:38Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-08T11:58:55Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-08T11:59:39Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-08T12:06:07Z tiwEllien quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-08T12:08:35Z long4mud quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-08T12:10:26Z Josh_2: Afternoon 2021-03-08T12:12:02Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-08T12:16:08Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-08T12:16:45Z nmg_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-08T12:17:06Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-08T12:19:11Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-03-08T12:22:24Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-08T12:23:49Z nmg joined #lisp 2021-03-08T12:23:49Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-08T12:23:54Z ejjfunky joined #lisp 2021-03-08T12:25:24Z ejjfunky left #lisp 2021-03-08T12:25:34Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-08T12:27:20Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-08T12:27:20Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-08T12:28:19Z kslt1` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T12:28:23Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-08T12:29:21Z heisig joined #lisp 2021-03-08T12:29:21Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-08T12:31:37Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-08T12:31:43Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-08T12:32:03Z kslt1 joined #lisp 2021-03-08T12:33:49Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-08T12:35:09Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-08T12:37:36Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-08T12:40:17Z tinhatcat joined #lisp 2021-03-08T12:41:57Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-08T12:42:33Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-08T12:43:01Z tiwEllien joined #lisp 2021-03-08T12:43:34Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-08T12:43:57Z tinhatcat quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-08T12:47:53Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-08T12:52:42Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-08T12:57:51Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-08T13:02:57Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-08T13:08:16Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-08T13:14:56Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-03-08T13:28:23Z Fare joined #lisp 2021-03-08T13:35:26Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-08T13:35:47Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2021-03-08T13:37:50Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-08T13:37:50Z hiroaki1 joined #lisp 2021-03-08T13:39:37Z yitzi joined #lisp 2021-03-08T13:45:58Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-08T13:47:50Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-03-08T14:04:12Z Noisytoot quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-08T14:05:16Z warweasle joined #lisp 2021-03-08T14:06:02Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-08T14:07:09Z Noisytoot joined #lisp 2021-03-08T14:07:41Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-03-08T14:08:08Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T14:08:30Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-08T14:09:06Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T14:09:21Z yonkunas joined #lisp 2021-03-08T14:09:29Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-08T14:10:10Z nicktick joined #lisp 2021-03-08T14:12:20Z drewc joined #lisp 2021-03-08T14:13:06Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T14:13:18Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2021-03-08T14:13:26Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-08T14:14:08Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T14:14:29Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-08T14:15:07Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T14:17:49Z rozenglass joined #lisp 2021-03-08T14:20:43Z wsinatra quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-08T14:21:17Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-03-08T14:25:44Z mfiano: Gripe of the day: It's annoying so many CL queue libraries are named with stack semantics (push/pop) 2021-03-08T14:27:09Z tiwEllien quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-08T14:27:57Z andrei-n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-08T14:28:22Z tiwEllien joined #lisp 2021-03-08T14:28:31Z pfdietz: QQ   :) 2021-03-08T14:29:30Z andrei-n joined #lisp 2021-03-08T14:31:25Z wsinatra_ joined #lisp 2021-03-08T14:31:49Z wsinatra quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-08T14:34:07Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-08T14:38:24Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-08T14:39:24Z splittist: mfiano: serapeum uses enq and deq, which you may feel isn't much better (: 2021-03-08T14:40:02Z mfiano: Heh, yeah. 2021-03-08T14:41:07Z mfiano: Even lparallel uses push/pop. phoe is one of the only people that I can respect with enqueue/dequeue, though I think I suggested that while he was developing it :) 2021-03-08T14:50:10Z splittist: trivial-rename-queues to the rescue! (Once it's written, of course.) 2021-03-08T14:50:14Z phoe blushes 2021-03-08T14:50:16Z phoe: splittist: oh no 2021-03-08T14:51:29Z mfiano: Speaking of lparallel, there are quite a few issues, and no developer activity since 2016. Should we sharp that thing? 2021-03-08T14:51:48Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-08T14:51:49Z phoe: push/pop, enqueue/dequeue, insert/remove, add/delete, stuff/pull, suggest/enquire... synonyms suck 2021-03-08T14:51:57Z phoe: mfiano: I think so, yes 2021-03-08T14:52:50Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-08T14:53:47Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-03-08T14:54:25Z splittist wonders if the fact his function is 120 lines long is affecting its debuggability... 2021-03-08T14:54:43Z nullx002 joined #lisp 2021-03-08T14:55:00Z phoe: can it be factored? 2021-03-08T14:55:10Z _death: it's true that push/pop are better associated with push-down lists (stacks).. but it's not exclusive, you can push/pop on either end.. for example C++'s deque (double-ended queue) has (push|pop)-(front|back) 2021-03-08T14:55:47Z phoe: ;; I now want a triple-ended queue with push/pop-middle 2021-03-08T14:57:12Z heisig: _death: C++ is not exactly a paragon of brilliantly naming things. 2021-03-08T14:57:12Z wsinatra_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-08T14:57:26Z mmmattyx joined #lisp 2021-03-08T14:57:38Z khisanth_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-08T14:58:00Z mfiano: I vaguely recall a push_back or something similar 2021-03-08T14:58:32Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-08T14:58:33Z mfiano: I haven't had to read C++ in quite a while, fortunately. 2021-03-08T14:58:44Z _death: heisig: it's just an example, in an argument about colloquial programmer jargon 2021-03-08T14:59:23Z gitgoood joined #lisp 2021-03-08T14:59:55Z cognemo quit (Quit: cognemo) 2021-03-08T15:00:33Z cognemo joined #lisp 2021-03-08T15:01:55Z gitgood quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-08T15:02:43Z splittist: phoe: I'm about to find out. I foresee a lot of (declare special) in my future. 2021-03-08T15:02:52Z SlashLife quit (Quit: Baking more cake ...) 2021-03-08T15:02:58Z phoe: splittist: oh goodness 2021-03-08T15:03:05Z phoe: is this function of yours free to look at? 2021-03-08T15:03:16Z phoe prepares €2 just in case 2021-03-08T15:03:46Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-03-08T15:05:03Z SlashLife joined #lisp 2021-03-08T15:05:20Z splittist: phoe: yes. But not worth it just yet. It's trying to match identical subtrees using queues and hashtables and all manner of state. The real issue is that I don't quite understand it, yet (: 2021-03-08T15:06:58Z Sheilong joined #lisp 2021-03-08T15:07:38Z splittist stops typing and starts thinking 2021-03-08T15:07:46Z Nilby: I think a real not simulated triple-ended queue would require non-linear memory. 2021-03-08T15:08:46Z Nilby: ironcially memory pretends to be linear when it's not 2021-03-08T15:09:59Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-03-08T15:12:49Z ft quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-08T15:13:12Z ft joined #lisp 2021-03-08T15:13:41Z nullx002 quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-03-08T15:19:27Z ey[m]1 joined #lisp 2021-03-08T15:21:06Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3)) 2021-03-08T15:22:31Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone) 2021-03-08T15:24:27Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-08T15:29:58Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-08T15:33:21Z kslt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T15:34:24Z gitgoood is now known as gitgood 2021-03-08T15:34:39Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-03-08T15:34:40Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2021-03-08T15:34:40Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-03-08T15:34:43Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-08T15:37:18Z n3t left #lisp 2021-03-08T15:39:02Z ex_nihilo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-08T15:39:13Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-08T15:39:42Z aggin joined #lisp 2021-03-08T15:40:23Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-08T15:40:52Z aggin: how would I use FORMAT to print out the index of the current element I'm iterating through in ~{ 2021-03-08T15:43:47Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-08T15:44:20Z _death: there's no built-in way.. you can do it yourself 2021-03-08T15:44:33Z aggin: how ? 2021-03-08T15:44:55Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-08T15:46:26Z _death: for example (format t "~{~{~A. ~A~}~%~}" '((1 a) (2 b) (3 c))) 2021-03-08T15:46:40Z _death: personally I'd just not use ~{ to do that 2021-03-08T15:47:00Z beach: FORMAT may not be the best tool here. LOOP might be better. 2021-03-08T15:48:07Z aggin: btw I was wondering how the ~/ directive worked in FORMAT, I couldn't find any example of it 2021-03-08T15:48:28Z sjl joined #lisp 2021-03-08T15:50:09Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-08T15:51:03Z kevingal_: Public Service Announcement: equalp of two strings is case-insensitive. 2021-03-08T15:51:04Z _death: the clhs does mention the pprinter functions 2021-03-08T15:51:11Z _death: (format t "~/CL:PPRINT-TABULAR/" '(a b c d e f g h i j)) 2021-03-08T15:51:30Z kevingal_: To my shock and horror. 2021-03-08T15:51:53Z aggin: woah that looks nice 2021-03-08T15:53:12Z _death: kevingal: not too long ago I took an hour to hack some define-equality-test operator, that you can use to define a case-sensitive euqalp https://gist.github.com/death/6a441602bd6acebda067dd900e56e256 2021-03-08T15:53:24Z _death: kevingal: of course, you can also just write the macroexpansion yourself 2021-03-08T15:53:45Z gitgood: I'm surprised to hear that about equalp 2021-03-08T15:53:52Z gitgood: surprised it's not bitten me already I mean 2021-03-08T15:54:35Z kevingal_: Cool stuff! In my case, I can work around it by using string= instead. 2021-03-08T15:55:02Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-08T15:55:16Z kevingal_: I'm guessing the equalp thing is something to do with symbols being case-insensitive. 2021-03-08T15:55:50Z _death: kevingal: there's nothing case-insensitive about symbols :) 2021-03-08T15:56:08Z kevingal_: Aren't they all converted to upper case? 2021-03-08T15:56:58Z _death: kevingal: this is more about the reader's behavior, as defined by the readtable's case 2021-03-08T15:57:45Z _death: clhs 23.1.2.1 2021-03-08T15:57:45Z specbot: Examples of Effect of Readtable Case on the Lisp Reader: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/23_aba.htm 2021-03-08T15:58:15Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-08T15:59:56Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-08T16:00:08Z jdormit quit (Quit: Idle for 30+ days) 2021-03-08T16:00:33Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-08T16:01:12Z kevingal_: Gotcha, thank you. 2021-03-08T16:02:01Z _death: the equality operators defined for you by CL are somewhat arbitrary.. the clhs also mentions this 2021-03-08T16:02:19Z _death: clhs equal 2021-03-08T16:02:19Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_equal.htm 2021-03-08T16:02:22Z _death: see Notes section 2021-03-08T16:05:13Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-08T16:05:51Z skapate joined #lisp 2021-03-08T16:08:15Z aggin: is there a way to collect in LOOP if a predicate is true or do I have to do it outside of it with REMOVE-IF 2021-03-08T16:08:33Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-08T16:08:41Z phoe: aggin: (loop ... when ... collect ...) 2021-03-08T16:08:46Z aggin: ok thanks 2021-03-08T16:09:45Z kevingal_: Case-insensitivity somehow seems more arbitrary than case-sensitivity :D I guess I can't complain, since the language also allows you to fix it with a whiz-bang macro. 2021-03-08T16:10:14Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-08T16:10:56Z fitzsim joined #lisp 2021-03-08T16:13:55Z _death: kevingal: when I started learning Lisp I worried about it, but over the years I came to prefer :upcase.. when I need to interoperate with some case-sensitive system doing the case translation myself or using strings or escaping seems to work well, it seems to discourages camelCase etc. in Lisp code, and in the repl when I have some char capitalized by mistake, I need not worry ;) 2021-03-08T16:15:36Z _death: it's also useful on irc discussions, where you can write FOO to hint that you're talking about the symbol, instead of, say, elisp convention of using `foo' 2021-03-08T16:15:45Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-08T16:16:00Z _death: (and docstrings ;) 2021-03-08T16:17:31Z JokerAscensionEx quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T16:17:33Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-08T16:18:25Z _death: and sometimes for quick experiments I just write stuff in uppercase for the nostalgia value ;) 2021-03-08T16:18:56Z tiwEllien quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-08T16:19:26Z _death: note to self: use uppercase the next time I demo SCREAMER to someone 2021-03-08T16:19:46Z tiwEllien joined #lisp 2021-03-08T16:20:06Z mfiano: It's all fine unless you're habits cause you to switch to a COBOL career 2021-03-08T16:20:26Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-08T16:21:33Z gitgoood joined #lisp 2021-03-08T16:21:36Z gitgood quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-08T16:22:37Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-08T16:25:24Z kevingal_: death: makes sense! My surprise is more at the default behaviour of equalp. Not an issue once you're aware of it. By the way, what's SCREAMER? 2021-03-08T16:25:39Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-08T16:26:27Z _death: kevingal: it's an oldie but goodie library for nondeterministic and constraint programming in Lisp 2021-03-08T16:27:09Z _death: https://nikodemus.github.io/screamer/ 2021-03-08T16:27:44Z nicktick joined #lisp 2021-03-08T16:29:47Z Lycurgus: and it's output is all caps? 2021-03-08T16:29:52Z Lycurgus: *its 2021-03-08T16:30:17Z _death: Lycurgus: no, but pervasive uppercase is generally thought of as screaming ;) 2021-03-08T16:31:02Z Lycurgus: right that was what I was looking for, trynna connect the dots between old thing I'd vaguely heard of and a lisp program that shouts 2021-03-08T16:31:04Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-08T16:31:25Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2021-03-08T16:31:52Z Lycurgus: apparently clarified to now just be tha program name 2021-03-08T16:32:32Z Nilby: Someday I want an implementation that does a fancy char-equal. 2021-03-08T16:32:53Z _death: kevingal: small example https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2333#2333 2021-03-08T16:35:47Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-08T16:35:50Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-03-08T16:38:47Z gitgoood quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-08T16:39:41Z zdravko joined #lisp 2021-03-08T16:40:28Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-08T16:40:46Z yitzi quit (Quit: yitzi) 2021-03-08T16:43:24Z semz: fancy in what sense? 2021-03-08T16:44:55Z _z_ joined #lisp 2021-03-08T16:45:00Z _z_ left #lisp 2021-03-08T16:45:58Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-08T16:46:29Z Nilby: That it does something different with extended-char, which also means I want fancy extended-char, with attributes and things. 2021-03-08T16:46:50Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-08T16:48:56Z zdravko quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-08T16:49:12Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-08T16:50:48Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-08T16:50:54Z iamFIREcracker quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-03-08T16:51:30Z kevingal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T16:51:30Z kevingal_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T16:51:42Z lalitmee joined #lisp 2021-03-08T16:51:51Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-08T16:53:48Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-08T16:56:08Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-08T16:57:10Z lalitmee quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-08T16:57:14Z iskander quit (Quit: bye) 2021-03-08T16:57:26Z lalitmee joined #lisp 2021-03-08T16:57:46Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-08T17:01:09Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-08T17:01:09Z engblom quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-08T17:01:28Z engblom joined #lisp 2021-03-08T17:03:11Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-08T17:03:34Z nmg quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-08T17:03:48Z nmg joined #lisp 2021-03-08T17:05:07Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-08T17:06:40Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-08T17:07:04Z mmmattyx quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-08T17:08:37Z lalitmee quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-08T17:09:23Z dyelar joined #lisp 2021-03-08T17:11:21Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-08T17:14:14Z andrei-n quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-08T17:16:29Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-08T17:18:50Z andrei-n joined #lisp 2021-03-08T17:21:44Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-08T17:26:56Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-08T17:27:03Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T17:31:35Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-08T17:33:18Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-08T17:36:52Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-08T17:38:02Z skapate quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-08T17:40:26Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-08T17:42:00Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-08T17:45:13Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-03-08T17:46:42Z aggin quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-08T17:47:03Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-08T17:47:07Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-03-08T17:48:25Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-08T17:49:34Z skapate joined #lisp 2021-03-08T17:51:58Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-08T17:53:46Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-03-08T17:55:19Z gitgood joined #lisp 2021-03-08T17:57:13Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-08T18:02:08Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-08T18:04:12Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-03-08T18:07:46Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-08T18:09:35Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-08T18:11:57Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-08T18:12:38Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-08T18:16:06Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2021-03-08T18:20:54Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-08T18:22:18Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-08T18:22:43Z Ashok joined #lisp 2021-03-08T18:23:07Z Ashok: Is it okay to press enter (newline) in the middle of a doc string for lisp function? 2021-03-08T18:23:24Z Xach: Ashok: yes 2021-03-08T18:23:30Z Ashok: Thanks!! 2021-03-08T18:23:40Z Xach: Ashok: it is very common - i recommend reading some lisp libraries for examples 2021-03-08T18:24:00Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2021-03-08T18:24:01Z Ashok: Which is recommended for good code styles? 2021-03-08T18:24:01Z Xach: https://github.com/edicl/cl-ppcre is fun to read 2021-03-08T18:24:06Z Ashok: thanks! 2021-03-08T18:24:38Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-08T18:33:34Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2021-03-08T18:38:55Z gitgood quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-08T18:39:45Z ggoes quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T18:40:52Z ggoes joined #lisp 2021-03-08T18:41:07Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-08T18:41:21Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-08T18:44:40Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-08T18:49:00Z pfdietz: equalp is not just case insensitive on strings, but also on characters.   Also, it doesn't care about array-element-type.   (equalp "a" #(#\A)) ==> true 2021-03-08T18:49:14Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-08T18:52:11Z villanella quit (Quit: villanella) 2021-03-08T18:53:53Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-03-08T18:55:48Z Fare joined #lisp 2021-03-08T18:56:38Z gendl: Hi, trying to start Slime with sbcl 2.1.2 (as installed by brew on an Intel Mac), set slime-lisp-implementation to ("sbcl") as well as full path to exe, as well as tried with :env ("SBCL_HOME=....") but... 2021-03-08T18:56:55Z gendl: getting: 2021-03-08T18:58:04Z gendl: wait... nevermind... just noticed I'm using a quite outdated Slime... trying with newest Quicklisp version.. 2021-03-08T18:58:48Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-08T19:00:05Z gitgood joined #lisp 2021-03-08T19:00:50Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-08T19:01:17Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-08T19:01:20Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-08T19:01:39Z gendl: ... yep that fixed it 2021-03-08T19:01:48Z phoe: hooray for self-fixing issues 2021-03-08T19:12:54Z engblom quit (Changing host) 2021-03-08T19:12:54Z engblom joined #lisp 2021-03-08T19:13:11Z ex_nihilo joined #lisp 2021-03-08T19:13:50Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-08T19:18:29Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-03-08T19:20:09Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-03-08T19:24:54Z Nikotiini quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2021-03-08T19:25:32Z Fare joined #lisp 2021-03-08T19:26:32Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2021-03-08T19:31:24Z waleee-cl joined #lisp 2021-03-08T19:36:26Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-03-08T19:37:22Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-03-08T19:38:34Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-08T19:42:12Z Ashok quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2021-03-08T19:51:39Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-08T19:53:54Z marusich quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-08T19:55:04Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-08T19:55:14Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-08T19:59:02Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-08T20:02:35Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T20:13:56Z cchristiansen joined #lisp 2021-03-08T20:14:40Z cchristiansen left #lisp 2021-03-08T20:18:20Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-08T20:18:52Z andrei-n quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-08T20:22:03Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2021-03-08T20:24:01Z mogglehud joined #lisp 2021-03-08T20:24:37Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-08T20:25:37Z catern quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T20:26:54Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-08T20:28:28Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T20:28:30Z terrorjack quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-08T20:28:51Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2021-03-08T20:29:26Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-08T20:29:42Z mogglehud quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-08T20:32:04Z Inline quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T20:32:27Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-03-08T20:33:22Z mogglehud joined #lisp 2021-03-08T20:33:29Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T20:35:23Z Lycurgus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T20:38:11Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-08T20:40:01Z mogglehud quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-08T20:40:53Z terrorjack joined #lisp 2021-03-08T20:41:51Z rgherdt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T20:45:29Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-03-08T20:56:15Z Inline quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T20:56:48Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-08T20:58:10Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-03-08T21:00:41Z mogglehud joined #lisp 2021-03-08T21:05:42Z curtosis quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-08T21:09:01Z cfvnhtsp^ joined #lisp 2021-03-08T21:09:10Z warweasle quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 26.1) 2021-03-08T21:12:02Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-08T21:12:31Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-08T21:15:05Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-08T21:18:19Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-03-08T21:23:50Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-03-08T21:24:02Z CrazyEddy quit (Quit: Reconnecting) 2021-03-08T21:24:15Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-08T21:24:38Z cchristiansen joined #lisp 2021-03-08T21:25:14Z mogglehud quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-08T21:28:15Z Inline left #lisp 2021-03-08T21:29:23Z gitgoood joined #lisp 2021-03-08T21:30:10Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-08T21:30:38Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-08T21:31:08Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2021-03-08T21:31:11Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-03-08T21:31:21Z Inline quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T21:31:24Z tiwEllien quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-08T21:31:58Z gitgood quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-08T21:33:10Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-08T21:33:23Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-08T21:34:55Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-08T21:35:31Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-08T21:35:37Z testnick88 joined #lisp 2021-03-08T21:35:53Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-08T21:36:24Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-08T21:36:24Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-08T21:36:38Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-08T21:37:04Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-08T21:38:24Z MetaYan: Xach: Is something wrong with the http://report.quicklisp.org/ generator? March 5th is the last one. And there are lots of errors since March 1st. Plus, you've dropped out from #quicklisp ;) 2021-03-08T21:43:21Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-08T21:47:42Z aindilis joined #lisp 2021-03-08T21:49:12Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-08T21:49:12Z jonatack__ joined #lisp 2021-03-08T21:50:46Z kpoeck_ joined #lisp 2021-03-08T21:52:02Z jonatack__ quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-08T21:52:20Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-08T21:52:59Z jonatack_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-08T21:53:05Z pve quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-08T21:55:51Z warweasle joined #lisp 2021-03-08T21:58:39Z dddddd quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-08T21:59:01Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2021-03-08T22:00:18Z dddddd joined #lisp 2021-03-08T22:03:02Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-08T22:04:14Z vegansbane6963 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-08T22:07:33Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-08T22:08:57Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-08T22:10:29Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-08T22:10:46Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-08T22:11:25Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-03-08T22:11:41Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T22:12:39Z pillton joined #lisp 2021-03-08T22:12:46Z kaiwulf joined #lisp 2021-03-08T22:13:38Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-03-08T22:13:43Z varjag quit (Quit: ¨) 2021-03-08T22:15:18Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-08T22:21:12Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-08T22:25:33Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-08T22:27:36Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-08T22:30:28Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-08T22:35:47Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-08T22:38:29Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-08T22:40:22Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-08T22:40:27Z texno quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-08T22:41:53Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-08T22:42:14Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-03-08T22:42:20Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-08T22:45:49Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-08T22:48:23Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-03-08T22:49:30Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-03-08T22:50:57Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-08T22:51:39Z JokerAscensionEx joined #lisp 2021-03-08T22:51:54Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-08T22:51:56Z pillton` joined #lisp 2021-03-08T22:52:10Z cchristiansen quit (Read error: No route to host) 2021-03-08T22:52:19Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-08T22:54:38Z pillton quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-08T22:54:47Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-03-08T22:56:24Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-08T22:57:27Z jeosol quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-08T22:58:17Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-08T23:01:14Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-08T23:06:16Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-08T23:07:34Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-08T23:11:09Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-08T23:14:02Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-08T23:16:20Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-08T23:19:14Z cfvnhtsp^ quit 2021-03-08T23:21:03Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-08T23:26:39Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-08T23:29:37Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2021-03-08T23:29:58Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-08T23:31:45Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-08T23:37:00Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-08T23:41:49Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-08T23:43:30Z skapate quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-08T23:46:53Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-03-08T23:47:00Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-08T23:50:29Z mange joined #lisp 2021-03-08T23:52:02Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-08T23:52:04Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-03-08T23:52:20Z madage quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T23:55:20Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1) 2021-03-08T23:55:37Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-03-08T23:57:09Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-08T23:58:49Z nicktick joined #lisp 2021-03-09T00:00:34Z kpoeck_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-09T00:00:40Z madagest joined #lisp 2021-03-09T00:02:29Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-09T00:07:11Z pillton` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-03-09T00:07:19Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-09T00:07:30Z pillton joined #lisp 2021-03-09T00:12:33Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-09T00:14:57Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-09T00:17:30Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-09T00:20:16Z madagest quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-09T00:20:32Z madagest joined #lisp 2021-03-09T00:22:08Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-09T00:23:28Z madagest quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-09T00:24:33Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-09T00:27:48Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-09T00:32:43Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-09T00:33:05Z madagest joined #lisp 2021-03-09T00:37:51Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-09T00:38:14Z pfdietz quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-09T00:41:21Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-09T00:41:42Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-09T00:42:44Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-09T00:48:06Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-09T00:48:33Z really2 joined #lisp 2021-03-09T00:50:22Z really2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-09T00:52:24Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-09T00:57:10Z really21 joined #lisp 2021-03-09T00:57:38Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-09T00:58:14Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-09T01:03:33Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-09T01:08:45Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-09T01:13:14Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-09T01:14:28Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-09T01:15:28Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-09T01:20:57Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-09T01:21:05Z vegansbane6963 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-03-09T01:22:30Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-03-09T01:25:40Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-09T01:29:02Z madagest quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-09T01:30:33Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-09T01:35:50Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-09T01:35:51Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-09T01:40:28Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-09T01:41:54Z ex_nihilo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-09T01:45:22Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-09T01:46:33Z perrier-jouet quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-09T01:59:15Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-09T02:02:27Z nicktick joined #lisp 2021-03-09T02:05:49Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-09T02:06:36Z sveit quit (Quit: Bye) 2021-03-09T02:06:36Z simplegauss quit (Quit: Bye) 2021-03-09T02:14:56Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-09T02:15:58Z akoana joined #lisp 2021-03-09T02:17:51Z ex_nihilo joined #lisp 2021-03-09T02:18:40Z semz joined #lisp 2021-03-09T02:18:41Z semz quit (Changing host) 2021-03-09T02:18:41Z semz joined #lisp 2021-03-09T02:19:50Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-09T02:24:38Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-09T02:25:12Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-09T02:31:49Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-03-09T02:31:56Z Fare joined #lisp 2021-03-09T02:33:27Z galex-713_ joined #lisp 2021-03-09T02:33:39Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-09T02:34:42Z hineios1 joined #lisp 2021-03-09T02:35:14Z Sheilong quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-09T02:35:52Z hineios quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-09T02:35:53Z hineios1 is now known as hineios 2021-03-09T02:41:10Z _jrjsmrtn joined #lisp 2021-03-09T02:42:33Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-09T02:45:00Z perrier-jouet joined #lisp 2021-03-09T02:45:00Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2021-03-09T02:46:59Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-09T02:46:59Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2021-03-09T02:47:33Z galex-713_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-09T02:47:59Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-09T02:49:34Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-09T02:54:35Z madage joined #lisp 2021-03-09T02:54:49Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-09T02:59:38Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-09T03:00:55Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-09T03:01:55Z galex-713_ joined #lisp 2021-03-09T03:01:56Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-09T03:02:00Z galex-713 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-09T03:02:36Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-09T03:02:42Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-09T03:04:49Z mange quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-09T03:04:57Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-09T03:05:21Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-09T03:10:19Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-09T03:11:12Z galex-713_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-09T03:12:33Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-09T03:15:22Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-09T03:16:21Z semz joined #lisp 2021-03-09T03:16:22Z semz quit (Changing host) 2021-03-09T03:16:22Z semz joined #lisp 2021-03-09T03:19:20Z warweasle quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 26.1) 2021-03-09T03:20:17Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-09T03:22:00Z rickygee joined #lisp 2021-03-09T03:25:07Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-09T03:25:23Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-09T03:27:55Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-03-09T03:29:57Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-09T03:30:48Z routeveg quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-09T03:34:44Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-09T03:35:28Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-09T03:36:06Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-09T03:38:14Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-03-09T03:40:34Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-09T03:45:41Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-09T03:49:52Z supercoven joined #lisp 2021-03-09T03:49:58Z rixard_ joined #lisp 2021-03-09T03:50:24Z sm2n_ joined #lisp 2021-03-09T03:50:28Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-09T03:51:05Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2021-03-09T03:51:19Z hineios3 joined #lisp 2021-03-09T03:51:25Z hhdave_ joined #lisp 2021-03-09T03:51:38Z astronavt___ joined #lisp 2021-03-09T03:52:37Z borodust- joined #lisp 2021-03-09T03:53:06Z idxu_ joined #lisp 2021-03-09T03:53:07Z ecraven- joined #lisp 2021-03-09T03:54:08Z hdasch_ joined #lisp 2021-03-09T03:54:30Z micro_ joined #lisp 2021-03-09T03:54:44Z elflng_ joined #lisp 2021-03-09T03:54:54Z micro_ is now known as Guest47409 2021-03-09T03:54:55Z getha joined #lisp 2021-03-09T03:55:00Z scoofy_ joined #lisp 2021-03-09T03:55:03Z deltab_ joined #lisp 2021-03-09T03:55:03Z akoana_ joined #lisp 2021-03-09T03:55:13Z cods_ joined #lisp 2021-03-09T03:55:13Z ramus_ joined #lisp 2021-03-09T03:55:17Z bmansurov joined #lisp 2021-03-09T03:55:18Z fengshaun_ joined #lisp 2021-03-09T03:55:28Z antoszka_ joined #lisp 2021-03-09T03:55:44Z dtman34_ joined #lisp 2021-03-09T03:55:47Z nitrix_ joined #lisp 2021-03-09T03:56:01Z White__Flame joined #lisp 2021-03-09T03:56:12Z xanderle joined #lisp 2021-03-09T03:56:12Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-09T03:56:15Z copec_ joined #lisp 2021-03-09T03:56:25Z albusp joined #lisp 2021-03-09T03:56:25Z datajerk_ joined #lisp 2021-03-09T03:56:26Z hhdave_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-09T03:57:16Z leo_song_ joined #lisp 2021-03-09T03:57:37Z SAL9000_ joined #lisp 2021-03-09T03:58:12Z malm quit (Killed (tepper.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))) 2021-03-09T03:58:13Z malm joined #lisp 2021-03-09T03:58:46Z Ekho quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-03-09T03:58:48Z akoana_ quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-09T03:59:19Z Trieste_ joined #lisp 2021-03-09T03:59:24Z pankajsg quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-09T03:59:25Z ukari quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-09T03:59:25Z akoana quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-09T03:59:25Z JokerAscensionEx quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-09T03:59:25Z Nikotiini quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-09T03:59:25Z elflng quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-09T03:59:25Z flazh quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-09T03:59:25Z Jesin quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-09T03:59:25Z sm2n quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-09T03:59:25Z scoofy quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-09T03:59:25Z copec quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-09T03:59:25Z vhost- quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-09T03:59:25Z rixard quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-09T03:59:25Z ramus quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-09T03:59:25Z antoszka quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-09T03:59:25Z White_Flame quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-09T03:59:25Z cods quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-09T03:59:25Z thijso quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-09T03:59:25Z X-Scale quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-09T03:59:25Z _death quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-09T03:59:25Z nitrix quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-09T03:59:25Z dtman34 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-09T03:59:25Z xlei quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-09T03:59:25Z leo_song quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-09T03:59:25Z Posterdati quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-09T03:59:25Z Juonu quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-09T03:59:25Z datajerk quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-09T03:59:25Z micro quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-09T03:59:25Z fouric quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-09T03:59:25Z hineios quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-09T03:59:25Z really21 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-09T03:59:25Z Bike quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-09T03:59:25Z kam1 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-09T03:59:25Z supercoven_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-09T03:59:25Z Trieste quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-09T03:59:25Z xanderle_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-09T03:59:25Z nullman quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-09T03:59:25Z vaporatorius quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-09T03:59:26Z astronavt quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-09T03:59:26Z ecraven quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-09T03:59:26Z SAL9000 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-09T03:59:26Z hhdave quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-09T03:59:26Z d4ryus quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-09T03:59:26Z traxex quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-09T03:59:26Z hdasch quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-09T03:59:26Z albusp_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-09T03:59:26Z Guest47363 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-09T03:59:26Z hvxgr_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-09T03:59:26Z [df] quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-09T03:59:26Z deltab quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-09T03:59:26Z fengshaun quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-09T03:59:26Z idxu quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-09T03:59:26Z SumoSud0 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-09T03:59:26Z borodust quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-09T03:59:26Z ecraven- is now known as ecraven 2021-03-09T03:59:28Z [df]_ joined #lisp 2021-03-09T03:59:30Z copec_ is now known as copec 2021-03-09T03:59:31Z hineios3 is now known as hineios 2021-03-09T03:59:31Z idxu_ is now known as idxu 2021-03-09T03:59:37Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2021-03-09T03:59:43Z akoana joined #lisp 2021-03-09T03:59:54Z hvxgr joined #lisp 2021-03-09T04:00:01Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-03-09T04:00:16Z SumoSud0 joined #lisp 2021-03-09T04:00:38Z fouric joined #lisp 2021-03-09T04:00:55Z vhost- joined #lisp 2021-03-09T04:01:14Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-09T04:01:42Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2021-03-09T04:01:50Z Juonu joined #lisp 2021-03-09T04:01:54Z gitgoood quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-09T04:01:55Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2021-03-09T04:01:55Z flazh joined #lisp 2021-03-09T04:01:56Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-03-09T04:02:13Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2021-03-09T04:02:13Z vaporatorius quit (Changing host) 2021-03-09T04:02:13Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2021-03-09T04:02:17Z JokerAscensionEx joined #lisp 2021-03-09T04:02:17Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2021-03-09T04:02:34Z Jesin joined #lisp 2021-03-09T04:02:37Z Alfr is now known as Guest58680 2021-03-09T04:02:37Z Guest58680 quit (Killed (leguin.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))) 2021-03-09T04:02:41Z fitzsim: I'm trying to use net.didierverna.clon in clisp 2021-03-09T04:02:42Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-03-09T04:03:38Z xlei joined #lisp 2021-03-09T04:03:55Z fitzsim: in core/meta.lisp, (named-readtables:defreadtable dummy (:dispatch-macro-char #\# #\_ #'dummy-reader) [...]) 2021-03-09T04:03:59Z hhdave joined #lisp 2021-03-09T04:04:08Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-09T04:04:19Z fitzsim: results in an error: SET-DISPATCH-MACRO-CHARACTER: #\# is not a dispatch macro character 2021-03-09T04:04:41Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2021-03-09T04:04:48Z fitzsim: hi beach 2021-03-09T04:05:51Z nullman joined #lisp 2021-03-09T04:06:00Z Ekho joined #lisp 2021-03-09T04:06:05Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-09T04:07:58Z rickygee_ joined #lisp 2021-03-09T04:09:22Z beach: Do you get the same error in some more popular Common Lisp implementation? 2021-03-09T04:10:04Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-09T04:10:30Z adeht joined #lisp 2021-03-09T04:10:31Z rickygee quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-09T04:10:31Z fitzsim: I'm not sure what else to try; the macro character seems fine to me 2021-03-09T04:10:31Z fitzsim: separately, I'm trying to install clisp via roswell 2021-03-09T04:10:31Z fitzsim: ros install clisp 2021-03-09T04:10:31Z fitzsim: results in :'ffcall+' is not a valid target for 'install' 2021-03-09T04:10:31Z fitzsim: this is on Debian ppc64le; does this work for anyone on other platforms? 2021-03-09T04:10:32Z nitrix_ is now known as nitrix 2021-03-09T04:10:45Z fitzsim: beach: no, SBCL is fine 2021-03-09T04:10:59Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-09T04:13:50Z fitzsim: beach: oh, actually, SBCL is complaining too 2021-03-09T04:14:41Z Bike: i haven't used named readtables, but i think if you don't specify existing readtables to get definitions from the new readtable starts out empty 2021-03-09T04:15:02Z Bike: so maybe #\# really isn't a dispatch macro character 2021-03-09T04:15:04Z really2 joined #lisp 2021-03-09T04:15:37Z fitzsim: it's in a #+clisp form, and when I try to run that form through SBCL, I see the same failure 2021-03-09T04:15:43Z hhdave joined #lisp 2021-03-09T04:15:53Z Bike: "An empty readtable is a readtable where each character's syntax is the same as in the _standard readtable_ except that each macro character has been made a constituent. Basically: whitespace stays whitespace, everything else is constituent." yeah ok. 2021-03-09T04:16:26Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-09T04:17:59Z Bike: oh, but it looks like it just uses this dummy readtable in addition to the standard one 2021-03-09T04:18:01Z fitzsim: yeah 2021-03-09T04:18:14Z fitzsim: this seemed to fix it: 2021-03-09T04:18:17Z fitzsim: (named-readtables:defreadtable dummy 2021-03-09T04:18:17Z fitzsim: (:merge :standard) 2021-03-09T04:18:17Z fitzsim: (:dispatch-macro-char #\# #\_ #'dummy-reader) 2021-03-09T04:18:17Z fitzsim: ... 2021-03-09T04:19:25Z Bike: maybe all you need is a (:macro-char #\# :dispatch) first 2021-03-09T04:20:05Z Bike: er, (:macro-char #\# :dispatch t) i guess 2021-03-09T04:20:22Z fitzsim: ok, the above worked with clisp 2021-03-09T04:20:28Z fitzsim: now trying your suggestion 2021-03-09T04:20:34Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-09T04:21:00Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-09T04:21:03Z Bike: works for me 2021-03-09T04:21:09Z Bike: i wonder if named readtables got stricter or something 2021-03-09T04:21:44Z fitzsim: yeah, your suggestion worked 2021-03-09T04:25:19Z hdasch_ is now known as hdasch 2021-03-09T04:26:23Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-09T04:26:41Z fitzsim: Bike: does it work for you on clisp without the :macro-char addition? 2021-03-09T04:28:11Z beach: fitzsim: Do you have particular reasons for using CLISP? I am asking because I suspect not many people here use it, so help is harder to find. 2021-03-09T04:28:51Z Bike: i do not have clisp installed. 2021-03-09T04:30:36Z fitzsim: I'm just trying out various CL implementations 2021-03-09T04:30:45Z beach: Ah, OK. 2021-03-09T04:31:04Z fitzsim: I find CLISP useful because it's good for bootstrapping SBCL 2021-03-09T04:31:29Z fitzsim: but I'd also like to keep my code working on several different implementations 2021-03-09T04:31:53Z fitzsim: Roswell seems really promising for this, since it'll e.g. build latest Git CLISP 2021-03-09T04:31:55Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-09T04:32:06Z fitzsim: it seems like CLISP is developed but not released, unfortunately 2021-03-09T04:35:17Z Bike: but based on defreadtable's docstring i can see how not defining # as a dispatching macro character would cause problems, regardless of implementation 2021-03-09T04:35:56Z fitzsim: Bike: yes, agreed; this seems to be a bug in net.didierverna.clon 2021-03-09T04:36:36Z fitzsim: specifically, in net.didierverna.clon's clisp portability code 2021-03-09T04:36:37Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-09T04:36:43Z fitzsim: (which SBCL doesn't see normally) 2021-03-09T04:36:43Z Bike: yeah. 2021-03-09T04:36:49Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-09T04:38:15Z Bike: eck, named readtables does have to resort to some implementation internals to make an "empty" readtable. that's kind of unfortunate 2021-03-09T04:39:44Z akoana left #lisp 2021-03-09T04:41:04Z hhdave joined #lisp 2021-03-09T04:41:29Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-09T04:43:50Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-09T04:43:56Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-09T04:46:46Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-09T04:51:50Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-09T04:53:05Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-09T04:54:16Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-09T04:57:18Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-09T04:59:13Z kaiwulf quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-09T04:59:14Z hhdave joined #lisp 2021-03-09T05:01:50Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-09T05:07:00Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-09T05:07:08Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-09T05:09:16Z Guest47409 quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-09T05:09:30Z micro joined #lisp 2021-03-09T05:12:33Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-09T05:13:36Z asarch joined #lisp 2021-03-09T05:14:59Z asarch: If I have (:food tacos :drinks beer) how could I add :snacks pizza at the end of the list So I could get (:food tacos :drinks beer :snacks pizza)? 2021-03-09T05:15:15Z supercoven_ joined #lisp 2021-03-09T05:15:19Z rickygee_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-09T05:15:38Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-09T05:15:42Z beach: clhs nconc 2021-03-09T05:15:43Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_nconc.htm 2021-03-09T05:16:07Z asarch: (concatenate 'list #(:snacks pizza) *to-buy*) adds at the start of the list 2021-03-09T05:16:37Z beach: asarch: But you need to be careful with that. You are often better off using APPEND and changing the variable containing the list. 2021-03-09T05:17:25Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-09T05:17:35Z beach: (setf (append '(:snacks...))) 2021-03-09T05:18:23Z supercoven quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-09T05:18:57Z asarch: Gotch! 2021-03-09T05:19:00Z asarch: Thank you! 2021-03-09T05:19:04Z asarch: Thank you very much :-) 2021-03-09T05:21:33Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-09T05:21:38Z asarch: Have a nice day! 2021-03-09T05:21:42Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-09T05:24:41Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-09T05:25:38Z nicktick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-09T05:26:27Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-03-09T05:26:32Z nicktick joined #lisp 2021-03-09T05:27:29Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-09T05:27:34Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-09T05:29:38Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-09T05:32:08Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-09T05:34:41Z jeosol joined #lisp 2021-03-09T05:35:01Z long4mud joined #lisp 2021-03-09T05:35:35Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-09T05:37:21Z hdasch quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3~bpo9+1 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-09T05:37:39Z hdasch joined #lisp 2021-03-09T05:37:52Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-09T05:38:05Z Bike quit (Quit: tired) 2021-03-09T05:38:23Z elflng_ is now known as elflng 2021-03-09T05:40:00Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-03-09T05:40:31Z White__Flame is now known as White_Flame 2021-03-09T05:42:46Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-09T05:48:14Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-09T05:49:43Z nicktick1 joined #lisp 2021-03-09T05:50:43Z scoofy_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-09T05:51:18Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-09T05:52:50Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-09T05:55:30Z nicktick joined #lisp 2021-03-09T05:56:53Z nicktick1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-09T05:58:20Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-09T06:00:08Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-03-09T06:03:10Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-09T06:04:36Z rickygee joined #lisp 2021-03-09T06:06:12Z Bike quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-09T06:08:14Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-09T06:09:29Z zdravko joined #lisp 2021-03-09T06:12:35Z markasoftware: nconc isn't guarantees to modify it in place, right? You have to do setf + nconc to be sure? 2021-03-09T06:12:58Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-09T06:14:40Z aggin joined #lisp 2021-03-09T06:15:18Z aggin: beach: I found out who you were talking about when you said yesterday "Who's the guy that said regex gives you 2 problems ? " 2021-03-09T06:15:36Z aggin: Jamie Zawinski 2021-03-09T06:18:28Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-09T06:22:46Z Lord_of_Life quit (Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine) 2021-03-09T06:22:55Z bjorkintosh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-09T06:23:57Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-09T06:24:25Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-03-09T06:25:08Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2021-03-09T06:28:18Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2021-03-09T06:28:42Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-03-09T06:28:45Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-09T06:29:13Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-09T06:33:28Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-09T06:34:10Z aggin quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-09T06:38:59Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-09T06:42:01Z ex_nihilo_ joined #lisp 2021-03-09T06:43:46Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-09T06:44:44Z rickygee quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-09T06:45:02Z ex_nihilo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-09T06:45:39Z tiwEllien joined #lisp 2021-03-09T06:49:00Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-09T06:50:55Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-09T06:53:36Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-09T06:55:22Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-09T06:55:27Z quazimodo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-09T06:57:18Z khajeya joined #lisp 2021-03-09T06:59:07Z khajeya quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-09T06:59:13Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-09T06:59:25Z pillton quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-03-09T07:00:07Z really2 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-09T07:00:12Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-09T07:01:10Z andrei-n joined #lisp 2021-03-09T07:01:49Z flip214: quite a few people say that... until they _know_ how to use REs ;) 2021-03-09T07:02:58Z Lycurgus: or how to copy and paste from a generator 2021-03-09T07:03:21Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2021-03-09T07:05:10Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-09T07:05:15Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-09T07:07:07Z karlosz quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-09T07:07:18Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-09T07:10:03Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-09T07:15:30Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-09T07:16:11Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-09T07:17:43Z ldbeth: good morning 2021-03-09T07:17:45Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-03-09T07:19:03Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-09T07:20:54Z nicktick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-09T07:22:52Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-09T07:28:41Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-09T07:29:38Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-09T07:30:52Z nicktick joined #lisp 2021-03-09T07:34:40Z surabax joined #lisp 2021-03-09T07:39:02Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-09T07:42:17Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-09T07:42:26Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-03-09T07:46:40Z beach: markasoftware: I think NCONC is specified to modify the list, unless it is the empty list of course. 2021-03-09T07:47:05Z beach: aggin: Thanks! 2021-03-09T07:47:32Z beach: Hello ldbeth. 2021-03-09T07:47:52Z zdravko quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-09T07:47:54Z nicktick1 joined #lisp 2021-03-09T07:48:40Z zdravko61 joined #lisp 2021-03-09T07:49:44Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-09T07:49:44Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-09T07:50:19Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-09T07:50:33Z zdravko61 quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-09T07:51:35Z zdravko61 joined #lisp 2021-03-09T07:54:26Z zdravko61 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-09T07:54:50Z zdravko61 joined #lisp 2021-03-09T07:57:26Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-03-09T07:57:30Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-09T07:58:44Z iskander quit (Quit: bye) 2021-03-09T08:00:58Z pve joined #lisp 2021-03-09T08:03:02Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2021-03-09T08:03:10Z ck_: I believe the regex quote is in the unix hater's handbook as well 2021-03-09T08:04:03Z moon-child: markasoftware: nconc is defined in terms of rplacd, so it would have to be in-place 2021-03-09T08:04:03Z ck_: but it might be for a specific tool, like sed 2021-03-09T08:04:18Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-03-09T08:04:18Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2021-03-09T08:04:18Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-03-09T08:04:32Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-03-09T08:04:34Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-09T08:08:13Z ldbeth: sometimes it is easier to write a proper parser 2021-03-09T08:13:01Z moon-child: imo raku (née perl6) has the best regex implementation out there 2021-03-09T08:13:50Z aggin joined #lisp 2021-03-09T08:13:52Z moon-child: not least because it's really well integrated with the rest of the language. And whitespace isn't significant, so you don't have to squish all the code together 2021-03-09T08:13:56Z moon-child wishes for something like that in cl 2021-03-09T08:15:23Z aggin: what would be the best implementation of CASE that uses string= and also supports the OTHERWISE key ? 2021-03-09T08:15:54Z flip214: aggin: ALEXANDRIA:SWITCH 2021-03-09T08:16:07Z aggin: flip214: ok will check it out 2021-03-09T08:17:21Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-03-09T08:25:30Z ex_nihilo__ joined #lisp 2021-03-09T08:26:54Z splittist: You can break a (cl-ppcre) regex into mulitple lines and provide line comments. That can reduce the write-only-ness of complex mangling. 2021-03-09T08:28:14Z ex_nihilo_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-09T08:29:39Z aggin quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-09T08:29:54Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-03-09T08:34:27Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-09T08:40:12Z zups joined #lisp 2021-03-09T08:42:49Z pve quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-09T08:43:05Z pve joined #lisp 2021-03-09T08:49:36Z semz: moon-child: cl-ppcre has an alternative sexpr syntax, though I find it pretty cumbersome and idiosyncratic personally 2021-03-09T08:50:44Z semz: I can really go without writing :non-greedy-repetition over and over to get optional matches 2021-03-09T08:52:28Z ccl-logbot joined #lisp 2021-03-09T08:52:28Z 2021-03-09T08:52:28Z names: ccl-logbot pve zups Nilby ex_nihilo__ varjag iskander attila_lendvai scymtym_ ljavorsk zdravko61 jonatack nicktick1 random-nick luni surabax toorevitimirp aartaka ldbeth rgherdt andrei-n tiwEllien bjorkintosh Lord_of_Life shka_ narimiran hdasch long4mud jeosol gaqwas supercoven_ micro hhdave Ekho nullman parisienne mr_yogurt rvirding Ziemas matijja cross tgbugs patrixl selwyn grfn Mandus jdz russell-- tychoish yottabyte XachX jsatk conjunctive gaze__ srji 2021-03-09T08:52:28Z names: glamas Papa ozzloy xi |3b| trn sebboh eagleflo jgkamat jackhill samebchase nckx mseddon8 shenghi mgr_ creat tomaw gingerale rotty gabiruh mrSpec teej jealousmonk mood jlpeters winny mfiano dunk alanz splittist samebchase- tmf matthewcroughan snits nydel mtd jfb4 mtd__ brandonz gpiero bkst zymurgy Kabriel brass aap gensym ferada Ankhers lonjil jasom pent Lord_Nightmare alfred181 lavaflow frodef phadthai noko Firedancer_ walex cyberlard Patternmaster midre 2021-03-09T08:52:28Z names: diamondbond saturn2 vsync guaqua_ hiredman jxy_ sukaeto1 thecoffemaker_ Iolo mgsk_ shinohai cpape`` spal bonz060 wooden ski ineiros_ cg505_ remexre HiRE dim markasoftware greeb nullheroes joga justinmcp devrtz_ stux|RC jackdaniel sbryant Yardanico z0d KeyboardWorrier jibanes gabc chrpape ravndal luis alandipert spxy zxq2 davros APic wigust Krystof palter Guest99088 nopf @fe[nl]ix zooey pyc flip214 entel shoshin interruptinuse AdmiralBumbleBee em banjiewen__ 2021-03-09T08:52:28Z names: larme Grauwolf aeth keja_ easye knobo Demosthenex akkad mathrick dvdmuckle eMBee mister_m gabot kingcons nightfly loke`` TMA herlocks- penguwin docl azrazalea fiddlerwoaroof stux|RC-only jbgg Inoperable kbtr_ tumdum himmAllRight zagura zigpaw10 pok MetaYan beach jurov moon-child z3t0 Gromboli gum Grue`` jmercouris rme Balooga buoy49 mgxm griffinbyatt billstclair dnm mgsk mjl bytesighs drmeister stylewarning CEnnis91 beaky plisp1 kim_ phoe shrysr_ felideon 2021-03-09T08:52:28Z names: xristos krjt dale swflint Colleen OlCe pacon Aurora_v_kosmose sxmx Fade lieven madnificent_ grumble specbot minion Kingsy amk acolarh Tordek jrm FennecCode thonkpod_ pranavats v3ga xantoz theruran totoro2021 theBlackDragon frgo davisr cartwright _paul0 sauvin IPmonger ioa ark Necktwi renzhi lowryder andreyorst Blkt oldtopman casual_friday p9fn estest pokes zaquest phantomics froggey jprajzne zupss add^_ mrchampion ck_ madand HDurer eschatologist ilmu terpri_ 2021-03-09T08:52:28Z names: jonathan- sgithens p_l mpontillo ffwacom chewbranca drdo seisatsu gendl luna_is_here physpi johs lukego avicenna Guest19918 gko greaser|q jerme_ housel voidlily spacebat2 Oddity lottaquestions_ femi summerisle cpt_nemo even4void[m] infra_red[m] theothornhill[m] cloudy[m] ms[m] ey[m] sepanko_ arichiardi[m] susam loke[m] harlchen[m] etimmons posthuman_egrego equwal quanta[m] deselby katco Gnuxie[m] ThaEwat dmiles[m] dieggsy kreyren MrtnDk[m] daniel1302 kini 2021-03-09T08:52:28Z names: gxt Xach joast matryoshka grobe0ba emacsomancer loli troydm _whitelogger hiroaki__ Cthulhux epony rwcom60280385034 hiroaki1 Noisytoot yonkunas drewc rozenglass cognemo SlashLife ft ey[m]1 contrapunctus fitzsim dilated_dinosaur engblom nmg dyelar ggoes gigetoo terrorjack CrazyEddy testnick88 amb007 aindilis dddddd edgar-rft rumbler31 vegansbane6963 _jrjsmrtn perrier-jouet madage semz hendursaga rixard_ sm2n_ X-Scale hineios astronavt___ borodust- idxu ecraven 2021-03-09T08:52:28Z names: elflng getha deltab_ cods_ ramus_ bmansurov fengshaun_ antoszka_ dtman34_ nitrix White_Flame xanderle copec albusp datajerk_ leo_song_ SAL9000_ malm Trieste_ [df]_ hvxgr SumoSud0 fouric vhost- Nikotiini Juonu d4ryus flazh ukari vaporatorius Posterdati JokerAscensionEx Jesin Alfr xlei kam1 adeht 2021-03-09T09:02:37Z kam1 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-09T09:02:50Z dtman34_ quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-09T09:03:34Z dtman34 joined #lisp 2021-03-09T09:03:44Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-09T09:05:27Z CrazyEddy quit (Quit: Reconnecting) 2021-03-09T09:05:59Z heisig joined #lisp 2021-03-09T09:07:43Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2021-03-09T09:08:38Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-03-09T09:08:50Z moon-child: https://github.com/logicmoo/wam_common_lisp this is interesting 2021-03-09T09:09:28Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-09T09:11:34Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-09T09:14:10Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-09T09:17:43Z testnick88 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-09T09:18:51Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-09T09:21:33Z nicktick1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-09T09:24:23Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-09T09:28:33Z zaquest quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-09T09:29:21Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-09T09:30:11Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-03-09T09:34:32Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-09T09:34:42Z SAL9000_ is now known as SAL9000 2021-03-09T09:38:10Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-09T09:38:46Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-03-09T09:39:40Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-09T09:42:34Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-09T09:44:47Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-09T09:46:22Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-09T09:48:29Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-09T09:49:53Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-09T09:50:26Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-09T09:54:04Z testnick88 joined #lisp 2021-03-09T09:55:07Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-09T09:56:46Z andrei-n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-09T09:57:36Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-09T09:58:32Z scymtym_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-09T09:58:55Z scymtym joined #lisp 2021-03-09T09:59:33Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-09T10:00:10Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-09T10:05:05Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-09T10:06:04Z antoszka_ is now known as antoszka 2021-03-09T10:09:57Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-09T10:15:17Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-09T10:18:06Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-09T10:20:25Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-09T10:20:59Z tumdum quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-09T10:25:42Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-09T10:28:23Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-09T10:30:28Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-09T10:33:03Z cods_ is now known as cods 2021-03-09T10:33:49Z cods quit (Changing host) 2021-03-09T10:33:49Z cods joined #lisp 2021-03-09T10:35:45Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-09T10:35:54Z beach quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-09T10:39:44Z beach joined #lisp 2021-03-09T10:40:26Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-09T10:42:15Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-09T10:45:48Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-09T10:49:46Z andrei-n joined #lisp 2021-03-09T10:50:42Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-09T10:56:20Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-09T11:00:06Z vegansbane6963 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-03-09T11:01:08Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-03-09T11:01:14Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-09T11:06:13Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-09T11:09:14Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-09T11:10:38Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-09T11:11:21Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-09T11:11:29Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-09T11:12:47Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-09T11:16:24Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-09T11:21:40Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-09T11:24:09Z andrei-n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-09T11:26:30Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-09T11:28:11Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-03-09T11:31:09Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-09T11:33:34Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-03-09T11:34:59Z xlei quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-09T11:36:43Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-09T11:42:13Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-09T11:46:57Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-09T11:49:44Z kam1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-09T11:51:43Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-09T11:57:04Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-09T11:58:47Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-09T12:02:06Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-09T12:06:07Z zups quit 2021-03-09T12:07:36Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-09T12:12:27Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-09T12:18:55Z andrei-n joined #lisp 2021-03-09T12:24:00Z deltab_ is now known as deltab 2021-03-09T12:25:14Z Fare joined #lisp 2021-03-09T12:25:21Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-09T12:28:53Z gabiruh quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-09T12:36:45Z phoe: am I screwing something up here, or is it cheaper to sort lists than arrays on SBCL? https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2334#2334 2021-03-09T12:38:44Z flip214: phoe: you're not mistaken. 2021-03-09T12:38:52Z flip214: I was wondering about that too. 2021-03-09T12:40:07Z flip214: phoe: though I'm trying to be at or above one second for TIME, to reduce noise a bit. 2021-03-09T12:41:00Z phoe: sure, let me try with 3M and bear with the fact that SHUFFLE is quadratic for lists... 2021-03-09T12:41:51Z flip214: phoe: phoe: well, put the shuffled data into a special and do that only once 2021-03-09T12:42:29Z phoe: eh, it's not *that* bad; still finishes in under a minute 2021-03-09T12:42:31Z mfiano: Well you're not timing that, so just put the shuffle on the array 2021-03-09T12:43:21Z gabiruh joined #lisp 2021-03-09T12:43:23Z zdravko61 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-09T12:48:58Z Nilby: I think it's because it with the element type it actually has to do more copying. And quicksort may have a slight throughput advantage to mergesort. 2021-03-09T12:49:17Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-03-09T12:49:39Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-09T12:51:30Z phoe: flip214: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2335#2335 2021-03-09T12:52:36Z Xach: i was looking for this, maybe you were too: https://web.archive.org/web/20200212080133/http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/ 2021-03-09T12:53:31Z Nilby: I imagine there might be some way to get that mergesort a smidgeon faster, by maybe having an architecture specific version. But of course the advantages of parallelizing are likely greater. 2021-03-09T12:53:47Z phoe adds to minion 2021-03-09T12:53:50Z phoe: minion: tell Xach about baker 2021-03-09T12:53:50Z minion: Xach: look at baker: https://web.archive.org/web/20200212080133/http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/ 2021-03-09T12:54:08Z Xach: i know about baker! i told *you* about baker! what is this! 2021-03-09T12:54:21Z phoe: you just told me about baker so now I know about baker! 2021-03-09T12:55:08Z phoe: Xach: https://i.imgflip.com/1xvnfi.jpg 2021-03-09T12:56:57Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-09T12:58:31Z adeht is now known as _death 2021-03-09T13:00:19Z _death: flip214: I submitted a PR for the shuffle fix a while ago, maybe you missed it 2021-03-09T13:01:39Z andrei-n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-09T13:02:58Z terrorjack quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-09T13:05:53Z phoe: _death: on the clnet gitlab? 2021-03-09T13:06:06Z nicktick joined #lisp 2021-03-09T13:06:22Z _death: phoe: no, on github.. we already had a discussion about that 2021-03-09T13:06:40Z phoe: OK, looking for that PR now... 2021-03-09T13:07:02Z long4mud quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-09T13:08:16Z terrorjack joined #lisp 2021-03-09T13:09:47Z phoe: found it and recreated at https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/alexandria/alexandria/-/issues/21 2021-03-09T13:10:31Z kslt1 joined #lisp 2021-03-09T13:10:44Z hiroaki__ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-09T13:10:49Z _death: my opinion is that the answer to both your questions is "no" 2021-03-09T13:12:49Z phoe: I assume you meant the 2nd and 3rd questions 2021-03-09T13:12:53Z _death: yes 2021-03-09T13:13:15Z phoe: I think the same way, but my nitpickish nature told me to nonetheless put the questions there 2021-03-09T13:13:58Z phoe: better to voice my worries out loud even if they are only going to be read by a single random person 10 years from now whose old code blew the heap because of this change 2021-03-09T13:14:25Z _death: if you have a large list, you already lose with that shuffle 2021-03-09T13:14:54Z phoe: yep, I can fully agree with that 2021-03-09T13:15:24Z _death: so maybe that person is still waiting for it to finish, and in the meantime won't use the new shuffle 2021-03-09T13:17:27Z _death: (by the way, by "large" I mean really small) 2021-03-09T13:20:20Z _death: if only it performed the shuffling on disk, like they used to merge sort "big data" in the old days... 2021-03-09T13:20:21Z jonatack_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-09T13:20:33Z xlei joined #lisp 2021-03-09T13:20:40Z flip214: _death: oh sorry, got no notification? phoe: thanks, will take a look 2021-03-09T13:20:44Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-03-09T13:21:16Z _death: flip214: interesting.. I also had something like that happen to me, and only noticed a PR by chance 2021-03-09T13:22:38Z Nilby: Also of course the performance on a random value straight consed list is slightly faster than shuffled 2021-03-09T13:23:12Z hiroaki__ joined #lisp 2021-03-09T13:23:37Z Nilby: But what's not to like about a linear shuffle? 2021-03-09T13:24:20Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-09T13:25:23Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-09T13:26:55Z _death: if you can do that, sure.. often, I find that I need shuffle 2021-03-09T13:28:42Z curtosis joined #lisp 2021-03-09T13:29:50Z _death: many alexandria functions are good for convenience but may not be the most efficient for your particular use-cases.. e.g., I remember having to implement a map-iota-permutations function that's similar to alexandria:map-permutations but uses a compact representation, given that the sequence is [0-n) 2021-03-09T13:30:49Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-09T13:33:50Z _death: flip214: I guess the reason for no notification is that your alexandria repo on github is a "fork" 2021-03-09T13:34:36Z _death: flip214: so since you're maintaining it, you may want to recreate it as an original 2021-03-09T13:34:58Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-09T13:44:06Z curtosis quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-09T13:47:35Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-09T13:50:32Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-09T13:56:18Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-09T14:02:57Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2021-03-09T14:26:30Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2021-03-09T14:29:40Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-03-09T14:35:25Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-09T14:38:58Z ex_nihilo__ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-09T14:43:49Z warweasle joined #lisp 2021-03-09T14:45:36Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-03-09T14:50:44Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-09T14:50:52Z Sheilong joined #lisp 2021-03-09T14:54:56Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-09T15:01:09Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-09T15:02:17Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-09T15:06:38Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-09T15:13:22Z jmercouris: what symbol would you use to designate a function as a implementation detail 2021-03-09T15:13:27Z jmercouris: like %salmon 2021-03-09T15:13:28Z jmercouris: or? 2021-03-09T15:14:12Z jackdaniel: %caribe 2021-03-09T15:14:15Z jackdaniel: they are dangerous 2021-03-09T15:15:11Z jackdaniel: the usual way to designate a function as an implementation detail is to not export it 2021-03-09T15:16:01Z jackdaniel: %foo denotes "dangerous" 2021-03-09T15:16:01Z jmercouris: I don't want to say it is dangerous 2021-03-09T15:16:12Z jmercouris: I just want to say it exists for this insular purpose 2021-03-09T15:16:15Z jmercouris: it is not really meant to be used 2021-03-09T15:16:20Z jmercouris: outside of this context 2021-03-09T15:16:24Z phoe: in my headcanon foo:bar is public, foo::bar is private, foo::%bar is an invocation to cthulhu and should never be used 2021-03-09T15:16:25Z jmercouris: like you can, nothing bad will happen 2021-03-09T15:16:38Z jackdaniel: then don't use % 2021-03-09T15:16:41Z jmercouris: OK 2021-03-09T15:16:44Z jmercouris: how about this 2021-03-09T15:16:50Z jmercouris: let's say we have something called process-salmon 2021-03-09T15:16:57Z jmercouris: and it processes a single salmon 2021-03-09T15:17:02Z phoe: is that exported? 2021-03-09T15:17:07Z jmercouris: then we have another function that processes multiple salmon 2021-03-09T15:17:25Z phoe: how does this second function differ from mapcar #'process-salmon? 2021-03-09T15:17:27Z jmercouris: the only reason we need the function that processes multiple salmon is because the caller expects to be able to pass a list of salmon to be processed 2021-03-09T15:17:41Z jmercouris: it MAY or may not differe from (mapcar #'process-salmon 2021-03-09T15:17:52Z phoe: what is the difference, then? 2021-03-09T15:17:58Z jmercouris: for example, sometimes we might only (process-salmon (first salmon)) 2021-03-09T15:18:06Z jmercouris: I'm just wondering how to name these class of functions 2021-03-09T15:18:25Z jmercouris: because you see the problem right? salmon is the singular and plural 2021-03-09T15:18:36Z jmercouris: so my thought was process-salmon* 2021-03-09T15:18:42Z jmercouris: to indicate the plural of salmon 2021-03-09T15:18:42Z phoe: oh, I see 2021-03-09T15:19:24Z phoe: I'd avoid trouble and use a singular process-salmon and indicate this in the documentation/docstring, and ask the users to mapcar/mapc #'process-salmon if they want to try and process multiple 2021-03-09T15:19:26Z jackdaniel: how about process-one-%caribe;drop table users; 2021-03-09T15:19:50Z jmercouris: phoe: I know, that is what I would normally do 2021-03-09T15:19:54Z jmercouris: phoe: can I show you a concrete example? 2021-03-09T15:19:59Z phoe: sure 2021-03-09T15:20:04Z jmercouris: one moment please 2021-03-09T15:20:41Z phoe: is a single salmon allowed to be a list, or not? if that is the case, you can make a very simple GF of typecase that accepts either a non-list singular salmon or a list of salmon 2021-03-09T15:20:50Z jmercouris: phoe: http://dpaste.com/8V4NMDJX9 2021-03-09T15:20:58Z phoe: that would be kinda sloppy, but would in turn work around the sloppiness of english 2021-03-09T15:21:01Z sjl joined #lisp 2021-03-09T15:21:03Z jmercouris: here is the problem, the prompter:actions ALWAYS specify a list to return 2021-03-09T15:21:05Z jmercouris: it is part of our API 2021-03-09T15:21:18Z jmercouris: and therefore any action MUST handle a list of objects 2021-03-09T15:21:41Z jmercouris: therefore I need a sort of 'mini wrapper' to just unwrap the list, I do NOT want to put that logic into scroll-page-to-heading 2021-03-09T15:22:06Z jmercouris: I would end up having to write a (if (listp heading) (first heading) heading) at the top 2021-03-09T15:22:15Z phoe: alexandria:ensure-car 2021-03-09T15:22:19Z phoe: but, yes, I see the issue 2021-03-09T15:22:26Z jmercouris: yeah, that's fine, I could do thta 2021-03-09T15:22:31Z jmercouris: s/thta/that 2021-03-09T15:22:33Z jmercouris: but still 2021-03-09T15:22:58Z jmercouris: I don't think it is a wise idea to overload the value of heading to accept EITHER a list or a single value 2021-03-09T15:22:58Z phoe: this sounds like a question of API design - are your functions specified to accept a single object, a list of objects, or both? 2021-03-09T15:23:08Z jmercouris: it /depends/ 2021-03-09T15:23:19Z phoe: I'd grab any of those choices (preferably the first, but that's my preference) and apply that consistently 2021-03-09T15:23:45Z phoe: if that is impossible, then specify in the function contract/documentation/docstring what is accepted by a given function - a single object, or a list, or both - and then use that 2021-03-09T15:24:14Z phoe: and then refactor as much as possible in order to aim for eventual consistency in the API 2021-03-09T15:24:21Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-03-09T15:25:18Z jmercouris: hm 2021-03-09T15:25:27Z jmercouris: interesting thoughts 2021-03-09T15:25:42Z wsinatra quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-09T15:26:20Z [df]_ is now known as [df] 2021-03-09T15:26:26Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-09T15:26:34Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-03-09T15:27:23Z jmercouris: thanks for your feedback phoe 2021-03-09T15:27:59Z jmercouris: well we have decided that the API should return a list /always/ 2021-03-09T15:28:10Z jmercouris: the problem is that many of our functions do not yet respect this, and they accept only single values 2021-03-09T15:28:19Z jmercouris: I guess ensure-car could be a band-aid... 2021-03-09T15:28:27Z jmercouris: or making the inline-command as I have done 2021-03-09T15:28:30Z phoe: hey wait a second 2021-03-09T15:28:35Z phoe: return a list, sure 2021-03-09T15:28:39Z phoe: but we are not talking about returning values 2021-03-09T15:28:43Z phoe: we are talking about *accepting* values 2021-03-09T15:28:47Z jmercouris: yes 2021-03-09T15:28:48Z phoe: that's the other end of the function call 2021-03-09T15:28:53Z jmercouris: the functions do NOT ACCEPT values, correct 2021-03-09T15:28:58Z jmercouris: sorry, a LIST 2021-03-09T15:29:16Z phoe: so you have a lot of functions that return lists of things 2021-03-09T15:29:27Z pfdietz quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-09T15:29:34Z jmercouris: only one function that returns a list, but it is used to gather user input 2021-03-09T15:29:40Z jmercouris: and this function is used extensively 2021-03-09T15:29:51Z phoe: I am confused now 2021-03-09T15:29:55Z phoe: < jmercouris> well we have decided that the API should return a list /always/ 2021-03-09T15:30:00Z phoe: I thought that you meant all of your API 2021-03-09T15:30:10Z phoe: what do you mean by "API" here? 2021-03-09T15:30:11Z jmercouris: phoe: yes, when calling (prompt "give me some input") prompt will ALWAYS return a list 2021-03-09T15:30:23Z jmercouris: a list of things the user has inputted 2021-03-09T15:30:49Z phoe: okay, and what is the problem? 2021-03-09T15:31:01Z phoe: you have a single function that is used a ton of times, and it always returns a list 2021-03-09T15:31:13Z jmercouris: yes 2021-03-09T15:31:20Z jmercouris: it did not ALWAYS return a list, in the past it would return a single value 2021-03-09T15:31:31Z jmercouris: and many functions are built around this concept 2021-03-09T15:31:34Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-09T15:31:40Z jmercouris: so for example, the one I showed you 2021-03-09T15:31:47Z jmercouris: "scroll-page-to-heading", it expects a single heading 2021-03-09T15:31:52Z phoe: oh, I see 2021-03-09T15:31:56Z jmercouris: it doesn't make sense that one could scroll to multiple headings 2021-03-09T15:32:06Z jmercouris: you can only scroll to one, it is a mutually exclusive operation 2021-03-09T15:32:14Z jmercouris: you can scroll to several in a row, but only one at a time 2021-03-09T15:32:22Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-09T15:32:28Z phoe: then call it like (scroll-page-to-heading (first input)) 2021-03-09T15:32:30Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-09T15:32:39Z phoe: that's what I would call the clean way 2021-03-09T15:32:40Z jmercouris: so the way that I've written it in my example :-D 2021-03-09T15:32:48Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-09T15:32:54Z phoe: yes, I understand your example now 2021-03-09T15:33:03Z jmercouris: OK, it is a good reassurance 2021-03-09T15:33:07Z phoe: this way it's clear that HEADINGS is always a list, even if it is a singleton list 2021-03-09T15:33:09Z jmercouris: and I did not know about ensure-car anyways 2021-03-09T15:33:14Z phoe: so at least we have type issues out of the way 2021-03-09T15:33:18Z jmercouris: indeed 2021-03-09T15:33:21Z phoe: but! 2021-03-09T15:33:28Z phoe: you won't need ensure-car if HEADINGS is always a list 2021-03-09T15:33:36Z phoe: you can just use CL:FIRST all the time instead 2021-03-09T15:33:47Z phoe: ENSURE-CAR is useful in situations when you *maybe* have a list 2021-03-09T15:33:50Z jmercouris: OK here is where it gets tricky 2021-03-09T15:33:54Z jmercouris: I do want ENSURE-CAR 2021-03-09T15:33:58Z jmercouris: because someone else could use the function 2021-03-09T15:34:03Z jmercouris: and they just want to pass a single value 2021-03-09T15:34:07Z phoe: then they fucked up 2021-03-09T15:34:08Z jmercouris: a single heading 2021-03-09T15:34:10Z phoe: and they need to fix up their code 2021-03-09T15:34:15Z jmercouris: well yes, but 2021-03-09T15:34:23Z jmercouris: it is counterintuitive to pass a list when we only want the first value /always/ 2021-03-09T15:34:30Z jmercouris: so I wouldn't blame them 2021-03-09T15:34:36Z jmercouris: even if the spec shows something else 2021-03-09T15:34:53Z Feldman quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-09T15:34:55Z phoe: hmmmmmm 2021-03-09T15:34:59Z phoe: is this an internal function? 2021-03-09T15:35:04Z jmercouris: yes and no 2021-03-09T15:35:09Z phoe: why no? 2021-03-09T15:35:10Z jmercouris: all functions in nyxt that are commands are external 2021-03-09T15:35:16Z jmercouris: we export all commands 2021-03-09T15:35:26Z phoe: okay, so in this case, SCROLL-TO-HEADING* that accepts a list of headings is exported 2021-03-09T15:35:26Z jmercouris: you see that this is not a command, it is a regular defun 2021-03-09T15:35:27Z kaiwulf joined #lisp 2021-03-09T15:35:35Z jmercouris: it is not exported 2021-03-09T15:35:52Z jmercouris: however, we encourage users to muck around even with unexported things 2021-03-09T15:35:52Z phoe: oh, wait, SCROLL-PAGE-TO-HEADING - is it a command? it's just a function 2021-03-09T15:35:58Z jmercouris: it is jus ta function 2021-03-09T15:36:02Z phoe: I see MAKE-COMMAND in L6, I assumed this is what we are making 2021-03-09T15:36:08Z phoe: > however, we encourage users to muck around even with unexported things 2021-03-09T15:36:10Z jmercouris: we are making a command, yes 2021-03-09T15:36:13Z phoe: ouch 2021-03-09T15:36:20Z jmercouris: :-) it will bite us yes 2021-03-09T15:36:21Z jmercouris: at some point 2021-03-09T15:36:28Z phoe: well then, you should encourage users to fix their code whenever you change stuff, too 2021-03-09T15:36:38Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-09T15:36:44Z phoe: and then move fast and break stuff fearlessly 2021-03-09T15:36:46Z jmercouris: yes 2021-03-09T15:36:56Z jmercouris: so the exported thing in this case is scroll-to-heading* 2021-03-09T15:37:00Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2021-03-09T15:37:01Z jmercouris: which ONLY accepts a list 2021-03-09T15:37:08Z jmercouris: you see that it does (first headings) 2021-03-09T15:37:15Z phoe: yes, I see 2021-03-09T15:37:15Z jmercouris: so the user of said function could very well get it wrong 2021-03-09T15:37:38Z phoe: in that case I can understand the use of ENSURE-CAR 2021-03-09T15:37:38Z jmercouris: thats why I wanted some convention or something to show it 2021-03-09T15:37:46Z phoe: because that function is supposed to DWIM, in a way 2021-03-09T15:37:49Z jmercouris: right, I could just add ensure-car to the other function 2021-03-09T15:37:56Z jmercouris: I could ensure-car in scroll-page-to-heading 2021-03-09T15:37:57Z phoe: and you kinda use it in both contexts 2021-03-09T15:37:59Z jmercouris: and it would be cleaner that way 2021-03-09T15:38:12Z phoe: sure 2021-03-09T15:38:19Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3)) 2021-03-09T15:38:52Z phoe: ;; and then you could just (make-command scroll-to-heading* scroll-page-to-heading) if you're willing to changing your MAKE-COMMAND macro to accept a function name instead of a lambda list and body 2021-03-09T15:39:15Z phoe: but then! are all of your commands single-argument functions? 2021-03-09T15:39:21Z jmercouris: No 2021-03-09T15:39:29Z jmercouris: Only some 2021-03-09T15:39:36Z jmercouris: That’s the thing :-D 2021-03-09T15:39:53Z jmercouris: I think ensure car might be the way to go here 2021-03-09T15:40:06Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-09T15:40:09Z phoe: well then which one of them accept lists and which one of them don't accept lists, because things are getting real sloppy 2021-03-09T15:40:13Z phoe: and I don't want to be the one maintaining it 2021-03-09T15:41:05Z jmercouris: All of them should gracefully accept lists 2021-03-09T15:41:15Z jmercouris: That’s what we decided 2021-03-09T15:41:41Z jmercouris: And I can either wrap them as ive done with (first xyz) or use ensure car within the body of the actual function 2021-03-09T15:41:54Z jmercouris: What should I do? 2021-03-09T15:42:19Z phoe: accept lists as which arguments 2021-03-09T15:42:24Z phoe: first, second, third, nth? 2021-03-09T15:42:29Z jmercouris: doesn't mater 2021-03-09T15:42:33Z jmercouris: it is always the first 2021-03-09T15:42:37Z jmercouris: s/mater/matter 2021-03-09T15:42:39Z phoe: oh, I see 2021-03-09T15:42:50Z jmercouris: so IDEALLY 2021-03-09T15:42:56Z phoe: then ensure-car all the things and pray that you never get a list as a valid argument 2021-03-09T15:42:58Z jmercouris: scroll-page-to-heading should accept a list OR a value 2021-03-09T15:43:13Z jmercouris: and like I said I can either wrap it (as I've done) 2021-03-09T15:43:15Z phoe: because if (1 2 3) is a valid argument to one of your functions then (ensure-car '(1 2 3)) ;=> 1 2021-03-09T15:43:17Z jmercouris: or use ensure-car within its body 2021-03-09T15:43:30Z phoe: and so your users will need to work around your sloppiness and manually wrap their lists 2021-03-09T15:43:41Z jmercouris: I'm not sure 2021-03-09T15:43:45Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-09T15:43:46Z phoe: so they'll need to call it like (do-command '((1 2 3))) 2021-03-09T15:43:48Z jmercouris: when would they need to manually wrap their lists? 2021-03-09T15:43:58Z phoe: when a command would normally accept a list of things 2021-03-09T15:44:10Z jmercouris: let's say I write a new function 2021-03-09T15:44:13Z jmercouris: download-links 2021-03-09T15:44:18Z jmercouris: as you can imagine, this accepts a list of links 2021-03-09T15:44:20Z phoe: yes 2021-03-09T15:44:23Z jmercouris: I'm not going to write ensure-car within download-links 2021-03-09T15:44:26Z jmercouris: that woud be nonsensical 2021-03-09T15:44:35Z jmercouris: so the user can just do (download-links '(link1 link2)) 2021-03-09T15:44:42Z jmercouris: there is no manual wrapping 2021-03-09T15:45:02Z phoe: then what about (download-links 'link1) 2021-03-09T15:45:20Z jmercouris: yeah, that's not possible 2021-03-09T15:45:24Z jmercouris: should it be possible? 2021-03-09T15:45:34Z phoe: no idea, you tell me 2021-03-09T15:45:43Z jmercouris: well, the name is plural 2021-03-09T15:45:48Z jmercouris: so no, it should not be possible 2021-03-09T15:45:56Z jmercouris: if if it was (download-link 'link1) then it would be fine 2021-03-09T15:46:00Z phoe: it's weird to me, because (download-links '(a b c)) operates on A B C whereas (scroll-to-heading '(a b c)) operates on A and nothing else 2021-03-09T15:46:11Z jmercouris: yes, that is inconsitent 2021-03-09T15:46:22Z jmercouris: while it is true that (scroll-to-heading '(a b c)) is technically correct 2021-03-09T15:46:27Z jmercouris: we are always expecting a list of a single value 2021-03-09T15:46:43Z jmercouris: the only reason it is a list is becuase of PROMPT 2021-03-09T15:46:54Z jmercouris: no other reason, prompt ALWAYS returns a list of values that the user selects 2021-03-09T15:47:18Z jmercouris: if I could declare a type of a list of a single value 2021-03-09T15:47:19Z jmercouris: I would 2021-03-09T15:47:25Z jmercouris: then it would be clear 2021-03-09T15:47:27Z phoe: you can 2021-03-09T15:47:32Z phoe: (cons t null) 2021-03-09T15:47:39Z phoe: this is a proper list containing exactly one value 2021-03-09T15:47:39Z jmercouris: ah 2021-03-09T15:47:42Z jmercouris: I did not think of that 2021-03-09T15:47:46Z phoe: s/a proper list/type of a proper list/ 2021-03-09T15:48:03Z wsinatra quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-09T15:48:09Z jmercouris: is the problem clear? 2021-03-09T15:48:16Z jmercouris: it does not make sense to jump to a list of headings 2021-03-09T15:48:20Z jmercouris: but prompter ALWAYS gives a list 2021-03-09T15:48:44Z phoe: I'd honestly always explicitly unwrap this list whenever I want to get its first element 2021-03-09T15:48:53Z jmercouris: that is what I will do 2021-03-09T15:48:56Z phoe: and signal an error if the list contains zero or two+ elements 2021-03-09T15:48:59Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-09T15:49:00Z jmercouris: with scroll-to-heading* 2021-03-09T15:49:01Z phoe: just for type safety 2021-03-09T15:50:21Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-09T15:50:48Z phoe: because if prompter is allowed to return a list of N elements (including one), then we need to always verify if we get a list of exactly 1 element 2021-03-09T15:50:59Z phoe: then extract it via CL:FIRST, and then operate on it 2021-03-09T15:51:07Z jmercouris: yes 2021-03-09T15:51:15Z phoe: at least that's what I'd do to keep it as magic-less as possible 2021-03-09T15:51:17Z jmercouris: that is why we do not use it directly, and wrap it 2021-03-09T15:51:19Z phoe: because magic means bugs 2021-03-09T15:51:26Z jmercouris: indeed, there is no magique aqui 2021-03-09T15:51:45Z jmercouris: you see in my example, I wrap it and extract the first function quite explicitly 2021-03-09T15:51:49Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-09T15:51:51Z phoe: yes 2021-03-09T15:51:52Z jmercouris: s/function/value 2021-03-09T15:52:00Z phoe: and that's how I'd do it, I guess 2021-03-09T15:52:23Z jmercouris: 1 2021-03-09T15:52:25Z jmercouris: thank you phoe 2021-03-09T15:52:44Z jmercouris: I'll be sure to curse your name some years from now when it all blows up :-D 2021-03-09T15:52:47Z phoe: but, just to be sure 2021-03-09T15:53:01Z phoe: make-command scroll-to-heading* is the thing that is going to be user-facing, right? 2021-03-09T15:53:09Z jmercouris: that's correct 2021-03-09T15:53:14Z splittist: Just stick :before and :after methods to ensure-car all the things. What could go wrong? 2021-03-09T15:53:20Z phoe: splittist: god no 2021-03-09T15:54:25Z phoe: jmercouris: I'm actually thinking of one more thing 2021-03-09T15:54:35Z jmercouris: OK, what? 2021-03-09T15:54:39Z phoe: what is your prompter like? 2021-03-09T15:54:45Z andrei-n joined #lisp 2021-03-09T15:54:46Z jmercouris: what do you mean? 2021-03-09T15:54:47Z phoe: does it always allow one to input multiple values? 2021-03-09T15:54:53Z jmercouris: sometimes 2021-03-09T15:54:58Z phoe: what does it depend on? 2021-03-09T15:55:03Z jmercouris: if you invoke it with multiple-selection-p 2021-03-09T15:55:08Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-03-09T15:55:12Z jmercouris: now, sorry 2021-03-09T15:55:14Z jmercouris: that's not the full story 2021-03-09T15:55:20Z jmercouris: a prompter contains multiple sources of information 2021-03-09T15:55:32Z jmercouris: each source decides if multiple-selection-p is allowe 2021-03-09T15:55:40Z jmercouris: and each source has its own list of actions 2021-03-09T15:55:43Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-09T15:56:03Z phoe: my naïve attempt to rewrite this would be https://dpaste.com/3QFEMD9AL 2021-03-09T15:56:12Z jackdaniel quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-09T15:56:17Z phoe: here I explicitly tell the prompter that I want single selection 2021-03-09T15:56:22Z phoe: and so my function accepts only one argument 2021-03-09T15:56:25Z jackdaniel joined #lisp 2021-03-09T15:56:32Z phoe: that's likely not going to hold in practice because of what you just said 2021-03-09T15:56:38Z jmercouris: phoe: yes 2021-03-09T15:56:44Z jmercouris: I wouldn't need to wrap anything in your example 2021-03-09T15:57:02Z jmercouris: I would just say (prompter:actions (list 'scroll-page-to-heading)) 2021-03-09T15:57:24Z jmercouris: the actions list can be a command, function, or symbol 2021-03-09T15:57:42Z phoe: but these multiple sources of information in the prompter, they happen one after the other, right? 2021-03-09T15:57:52Z jmercouris: they happen in parallel 2021-03-09T15:57:58Z phoe: how does it work? 2021-03-09T15:58:01Z jmercouris: the prompter queries each source simultaneously 2021-03-09T15:58:20Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-03-09T15:58:23Z jmercouris: so if I say (prompt "select tomato?" source1 source2 source3) 2021-03-09T15:58:26Z phoe: does it mean that I can get three popups at the same time, each asking me for different stuff? 2021-03-09T15:58:27Z jmercouris: and source1 is some farmer in italy 2021-03-09T15:58:33Z jmercouris: source2 is some farmer in france 2021-03-09T15:58:37Z jmercouris: source3 is some farmer in spain 2021-03-09T15:58:48Z jmercouris: the prompter will call up each farmer and ask them for a list of their tomatoes 2021-03-09T15:58:57Z jmercouris: maybe the spanish farmer only sells a single tomato at a time 2021-03-09T15:59:00Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-03-09T15:59:05Z jmercouris: but maybe the french farmer will allow you to buy 3 tomatoes 2021-03-09T15:59:13Z jmercouris: the user selects the tomato from the selection and presses RET 2021-03-09T15:59:28Z phoe: so it merges these sources of information in some way and displays a merged list of all them that the user can select from? 2021-03-09T15:59:29Z iskander- joined #lisp 2021-03-09T15:59:30Z jmercouris: at this point the prompt will gather up all of the tomatoes you've selected and return them 2021-03-09T15:59:36Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-09T15:59:37Z jmercouris: phoe: yes, exactly 2021-03-09T15:59:41Z jmercouris: let me show you a screenshot 2021-03-09T16:00:24Z jmercouris: phoe: https://i.imgur.com/xzvyZo3.png 2021-03-09T16:00:24Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-09T16:00:32Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-09T16:00:34Z jmercouris: there are two sources here 2021-03-09T16:00:42Z jmercouris: "New URL" and "Global History" 2021-03-09T16:00:47Z phoe: yes, i understand this 2021-03-09T16:01:10Z jmercouris: when I press RET it will grab ALL selections from ALL sources 2021-03-09T16:01:18Z jmercouris: and return them as a list 2021-03-09T16:01:24Z jmercouris: even if one of the sources only allows single selection 2021-03-09T16:01:36Z phoe: yes; it's not a problem of a source allowing single selection or not 2021-03-09T16:01:54Z phoe: it's a problem of you not being able to configure the *prompter* to only allow a single selection across *all* the sources 2021-03-09T16:02:01Z jmercouris: that's correct 2021-03-09T16:02:12Z phoe: so info sources aside, you cannot tell the prompter that you want to get a single result from it 2021-03-09T16:02:20Z jmercouris: not reliably, no 2021-03-09T16:02:26Z phoe: and that's the architectural bug that I see here 2021-03-09T16:02:47Z jmercouris: well, it is a compromise, to allow the behavior that we want 2021-03-09T16:02:47Z phoe: I'd like to have a prompter that forces the user to only select one and only one thing, only to return it 2021-03-09T16:03:10Z phoe: but then also has the multi-select behavior as an option to allow opening multiple URLs, for example 2021-03-09T16:03:28Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-03-09T16:03:29Z jmercouris: we did have a debate about this as well 2021-03-09T16:03:52Z jmercouris: https://github.com/atlas-engineer/nyxt/pull/1157 2021-03-09T16:04:02Z splittist wonders why jmercouris wants to eat parakeets 2021-03-09T16:04:02Z jmercouris: starting with "When I wrote this I realized it did not work. Then I tried to do" 2021-03-09T16:04:14Z zdravko61 joined #lisp 2021-03-09T16:04:14Z phoe: currently the prompter returns very simple metadata about the values that it returns 2021-03-09T16:04:18Z phoe: namely, the length of the list 2021-03-09T16:04:47Z phoe: but it's not the prompter returning that IMO is the problem, it is the prompter getting invoked 2021-03-09T16:05:06Z phoe: I'd like to invoke the prompter in a way that always returns one element, because then I can depend on that element being singular 2021-03-09T16:05:24Z jmercouris: right, explicitly asking for a single return value 2021-03-09T16:05:31Z phoe: yes, when the prompter is invoked 2021-03-09T16:05:50Z jmercouris: I'm not sure that fixes the problem though 2021-03-09T16:05:55Z jmercouris: ACTIONS operate on the SOURCE level 2021-03-09T16:06:18Z jmercouris: hm, maybe it would work 2021-03-09T16:06:24Z phoe: hm 2021-03-09T16:06:33Z phoe: this has become a strangely specific discussion 2021-03-09T16:06:38Z phoe: maybe let's move it to #nyxt 2021-03-09T16:06:42Z gitgoood joined #lisp 2021-03-09T16:06:44Z jmercouris: OK 2021-03-09T16:06:53Z gitgoood is now known as gitgood 2021-03-09T16:07:32Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-09T16:21:49Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-09T16:23:54Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-03-09T16:31:43Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-09T16:32:18Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-09T16:40:25Z curtosis joined #lisp 2021-03-09T16:43:05Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-09T16:51:31Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-03-09T16:57:44Z CrazyPython joined #lisp 2021-03-09T16:59:14Z gitgoood joined #lisp 2021-03-09T17:01:29Z zdravko61 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-09T17:01:37Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-09T17:01:59Z gitgood quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-09T17:02:02Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-09T17:06:49Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-03-09T17:09:23Z jeosol quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-09T17:22:49Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-09T17:23:27Z kslt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-09T17:25:54Z wsinatra quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-09T17:26:08Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-03-09T17:26:18Z zdravko61 joined #lisp 2021-03-09T17:26:51Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-09T17:27:05Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-09T17:34:15Z curtosis quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-09T17:35:49Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-09T17:37:06Z mfiano: So if we have a class with a few slots that is not exported, and then we have a macro 2021-03-09T17:37:08Z mfiano: oops 2021-03-09T17:37:17Z mfiano: MOP question: If I have an internal class that is not exported which has a few slots, and then I have a macro that is exported that the user uses to define a class that is a subclass of this class (among other details), can our internal code reliably use STANDARD-INSTANCE-ACCESS to access the inherited slots, without fear of the vector positions changing when the user redefines the subclass? 2021-03-09T17:38:34Z mfiano: The internal class is never going to be changed itself, only the user's subclass, which we want to S-I-A in our internal code to access the inherited slots 2021-03-09T17:40:09Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-09T17:40:21Z mfiano: Seems like a question Bike or beach would know best :) 2021-03-09T17:40:54Z arcontethegreat[ joined #lisp 2021-03-09T17:41:11Z anewuser joined #lisp 2021-03-09T17:41:24Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-09T17:46:57Z kevingal_ joined #lisp 2021-03-09T17:47:10Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-03-09T17:47:57Z anewuser quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-09T17:53:12Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-09T17:55:29Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-09T17:56:24Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-09T18:02:03Z iskander- quit (Quit: bye) 2021-03-09T18:05:35Z zdravko61 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-09T18:07:35Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2021-03-09T18:09:13Z noko quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-09T18:12:06Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-09T18:13:59Z kaiwulf quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-09T18:14:32Z fiddlerwoaroof just spent an hour or so because of SET-PPRINT-DISPATCH 2021-03-09T18:14:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: It turns out that if you do (SET-PPRINT-DISPATCH 'string ...), you can break ASDF/UIOP 2021-03-09T18:16:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: For portability, they should probably copy the pretty-print dispatch table and add it to the WITH-SAFE-IO-SYNTAX macro 2021-03-09T18:16:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: (or similar) 2021-03-09T18:17:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: Or, just NIL out *PRINT-PRETTY* 2021-03-09T18:17:23Z _death: fiddlerwoaroof: you should use your own dispatch table.. I have a patch for slime that lets you have a repl-specific dispatch table 2021-03-09T18:17:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, the issue was that I accidentally modified the global one 2021-03-09T18:18:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, user error, but it seems like the sort of problem a library like ASDF should think about 2021-03-09T18:19:03Z _death: fiddlerwoaroof: as I wrote in that patch's commit message, their assumptions may not be warranted, but this is the real world ;) 2021-03-09T18:22:46Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2021-03-09T18:23:16Z gxt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-09T18:24:09Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-09T18:27:55Z dopeCanoe joined #lisp 2021-03-09T18:28:03Z gxt joined #lisp 2021-03-09T18:28:23Z curtosis joined #lisp 2021-03-09T18:28:40Z scymtym joined #lisp 2021-03-09T18:28:57Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-09T18:29:31Z CrazyPython quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-09T18:30:24Z mmohammadi9812 joined #lisp 2021-03-09T18:30:55Z dopeCanoe left #lisp 2021-03-09T18:34:50Z CrazyPython joined #lisp 2021-03-09T18:35:29Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-03-09T18:36:10Z jeosol joined #lisp 2021-03-09T18:36:22Z pfdietz quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-09T18:37:04Z waleee-cl joined #lisp 2021-03-09T18:37:34Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-03-09T18:37:43Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-09T18:38:08Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-09T18:39:19Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-09T18:40:01Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-09T18:40:47Z jonatack_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-09T18:41:13Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-03-09T18:41:48Z jonatack_ quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-09T18:42:06Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-09T18:43:33Z waleee-cl: Will a newer sbcl re-use the cached files in ~/.cache/common-lisp from the previous version on the system? 2021-03-09T18:44:04Z waleee-cl: I got a package error when building nyxt that went away after wiping the cache, hence the question 2021-03-09T18:44:12Z _death: waleee-cl: it's best to delete the cache 2021-03-09T18:45:28Z _death: waleee-cl: sbcl's fasls have versions, but even with the same version I don't know if you can practically rely on that 2021-03-09T18:45:39Z Bike: mfiano: i think you can rely on the slot locations being the same unless the user can use multiple inheritance or affect the inherited slots in certain ways 2021-03-09T18:45:54Z waleee-cl: _death: yeah, I guess. It worked without wiping it for about 4 months of sbcl's straight from the git repo 2021-03-09T18:46:05Z Bike: mfiano: "For a given class, the locations increase consecutively, in the order that the directly accessible slots appear in the list of effective slots." 2021-03-09T18:46:39Z mfiano: Bike: I was told the MOP does not guaranteee slot locations, in that the "youngest" slots could be placed first. 2021-03-09T18:46:47Z mfiano: Which would definitely be against my idea 2021-03-09T18:46:52Z Bike: hmm yeah i might be misremembering 2021-03-09T18:46:59Z Bike: "Direct slot definitions coming from classes earlier in the class precedence list of class appear before those coming from classes later in the class precedence list." 2021-03-09T18:47:33Z Bike: so any new slots would displace the old ones 2021-03-09T18:47:50Z mfiano: Does that mean superclass slots would appear first? 2021-03-09T18:48:32Z Bike: no, superclasses will be later in the CPL 2021-03-09T18:48:37Z Bike: well i suppose i can just test what sbcl does 2021-03-09T18:49:49Z Bike: seems the slot locations are consistent. wonder what i'm misreading here 2021-03-09T18:50:12Z Bike: oh, wait, i see, "The result of compute-slots is a list of these effective slot definitions, in unspecified order." 2021-03-09T18:50:39Z Bike: so you can't rely on an ordering of effective slots 2021-03-09T18:50:52Z mfiano: Fun times. Back to the drawing board. Thanks! 2021-03-09T18:51:30Z Bike: if this is important, you could define your own metaclass with a compute-slots that does define the order/locations 2021-03-09T18:52:21Z mfiano: I would have to underatand that better to see if the obsoileted instance edge case would bite me 2021-03-09T18:52:37Z mfiano: I'll read more into it tomorrow I guess 2021-03-09T18:53:06Z Bike: i don't think redefinition poses a special issue 2021-03-09T18:53:39Z mfiano: Also I feel like I would totally screw that up. I'm not very familiar with defining custom metaclasses 2021-03-09T18:53:54Z mfiano: D you have an example of doing something similar? 2021-03-09T18:54:00Z mfiano: Do* 2021-03-09T18:54:13Z Bike: something similar in the sense of keeping locations consistent, no 2021-03-09T18:54:15Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-09T18:54:22Z mfiano: Fair enough 2021-03-09T18:54:40Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-09T18:56:51Z mfiano: Bike: is beach's example here doing just that? https://common-lisp.net/~mevenson/lisp/beach/CLOS-MOP-HTML/instance-structure-protocol.html 2021-03-09T18:57:43Z Bike: yes, although as you can see you have to explicitly specify the slot-order for every class, which is probably not what you want 2021-03-09T18:57:52Z Bike: (also i think that example is from AMOP) 2021-03-09T18:59:59Z mfiano: Really all I want is for 2 slots in a private class that is the sole direct superclass (enforced by a macro) to always by first in the storage 2021-03-09T19:02:44Z Bike: sure. plenty of ways you could do that. all you need to do is make sure compute-slots always returns those two slots first 2021-03-09T19:03:26Z mfiano: The example I linked to says it will not work for subclasses 2021-03-09T19:03:32Z mfiano: I am not sure what must be done to do such 2021-03-09T19:03:40Z curtosis quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-09T19:05:23Z Bike: it's simple. say your slots are named A and B. one thing you could do would be to (call-next-method), get your list, look for the slots named A and B, and reorder them to the head of the list, and then return that. 2021-03-09T19:06:57Z mfiano: Sounds simple enough, and gives me enough of an idea to play around with it. Thanks 2021-03-09T19:07:18Z Bike: no problem 2021-03-09T19:11:28Z mfiano: Also, looks like there is a typo in that example 2021-03-09T19:11:59Z mfiano: The test function is comparing A with A instead of A with B 2021-03-09T19:12:58Z Bike: right you are. 2021-03-09T19:13:09Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-09T19:13:14Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-09T19:13:41Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-09T19:13:55Z mfiano: Can you dumb it down for me, as far as how your suggestion of using c-n-m is different than the use of it there? 2021-03-09T19:14:18Z Bike: in the example they sort the entire list with this predicate that uses the (custom) class-slot-order property 2021-03-09T19:14:32Z Bike: you'd want to just... you know what i'll just write it out 2021-03-09T19:14:53Z mfiano: Ah, hmm, ok 2021-03-09T19:15:02Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-09T19:15:52Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-03-09T19:16:00Z Bike: (defmethod compute-slots ((class whatever))(let* ((prev (call-next-method))(a-slot (find 'a prev :key #'slot-definition-name))(b-slot (find 'b prev :key #'slot-definition-name)))(list* a-slotb-slot(remove a-slot (remove b-slot prev))))) 2021-03-09T19:17:25Z mfiano: Ok, reformatting and parsing 2021-03-09T19:19:20Z sauvin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-09T19:19:40Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-09T19:20:23Z Kingsy: https://github.com/xach/buildapp <- is this considered the easiest way of buildign an executable when using commonlisp ? 2021-03-09T19:21:25Z Xach: Kingsy: i think asdf has an easier option that works with more implementations 2021-03-09T19:21:33Z mfiano: I see, and if I needed more slots I wouldn't even need to open code them it looks like 2021-03-09T19:21:43Z Kingsy: looking. 2021-03-09T19:21:43Z Xach: Kingsy: i can't remember the operation, though - it is in the manual iirc 2021-03-09T19:22:15Z Bike: mfiano: just like, don't overthink it i guess? all you need to do is reorder a list. it's like a pretty abstract data problem 2021-03-09T19:22:22Z mfiano: :) 2021-03-09T19:22:25Z Kingsy: yeah I am looking now. I'll have a read of the getting started guide. 2021-03-09T19:22:27Z Kingsy: Xach: thanks 2021-03-09T19:29:41Z mfiano: Bike: Do I need to do anything special for validate-superclass? 2021-03-09T19:30:33Z Bike: (defmethod validate-superclass ((class mfiano-class) (superclass standard-class)) t) should be it i think 2021-03-09T19:30:45Z Bike: assuming your defining macro puts in the metaclass as well 2021-03-09T19:31:04Z mfiano: Ok thanks 2021-03-09T19:32:19Z mfiano: Well that doesn't avoid the error 2021-03-09T19:32:25Z mfiano: I should just read more MOP 2021-03-09T19:32:51Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-09T19:33:07Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-09T19:35:21Z Bike: what's the error? 2021-03-09T19:37:06Z mfiano: Well my superclass definition uses the metaclass, and I can make an instance of that with that validate-superclass in place, but I cannot make an instance of a subclass of that superclass. Do I also need to add the metaclass to that as well? 2021-03-09T19:37:21Z Bike: yes. 2021-03-09T19:37:28Z mfiano: I see 2021-03-09T19:37:36Z Ashok joined #lisp 2021-03-09T19:40:39Z mfiano: Bike: hmm... https://gist.github.com/mfiano/d017d4f06b2980a7717baaf968b2f15e 2021-03-09T19:41:36Z mfiano: Oh you later corrected yourself to "unspecified order". I was remembering your earlier comment about super slots appearing last 2021-03-09T19:41:58Z Bike: in this case it's probably set-difference moving things around 2021-03-09T19:42:49Z mfiano: Well the latter 2 slot ordering is meaningless. It was just me remembering the wrong thing you said earlier about A and B appearing last in the storage vector 2021-03-09T19:44:16Z Bike: right 2021-03-09T19:45:06Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-09T19:45:12Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-09T20:00:24Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-09T20:01:35Z kaiwulf joined #lisp 2021-03-09T20:05:33Z curtosis joined #lisp 2021-03-09T20:07:33Z Ashok quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2021-03-09T20:07:37Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-09T20:10:04Z hiroaki1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-09T20:10:33Z hiroaki1 joined #lisp 2021-03-09T20:16:09Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-09T20:19:50Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2021-03-09T20:20:35Z casual_friday_ joined #lisp 2021-03-09T20:21:38Z casual_friday quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-09T20:22:42Z jeosol quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-09T20:22:45Z bendersteed joined #lisp 2021-03-09T20:36:49Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-09T20:37:17Z hiroaki__ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-09T20:42:31Z borodust- is now known as borodust 2021-03-09T20:42:46Z borodust quit (Changing host) 2021-03-09T20:42:46Z borodust joined #lisp 2021-03-09T20:44:28Z curtosis is now known as curtosis[away] 2021-03-09T20:44:57Z curtosis[away] quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-09T20:46:09Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-09T20:47:20Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-09T20:48:47Z curtosis joined #lisp 2021-03-09T20:52:37Z creuxsader joined #lisp 2021-03-09T20:54:15Z hiroaki__ joined #lisp 2021-03-09T20:57:30Z JokerAscensionEx quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-09T20:59:42Z mmohammadi9812 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-09T20:59:59Z mmohammadi9812 joined #lisp 2021-03-09T21:01:35Z JokerAscensionEx joined #lisp 2021-03-09T21:08:01Z andrei-n quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-09T21:17:07Z moon-child quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-09T21:17:38Z hvxgr quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-09T21:21:00Z hvxgr joined #lisp 2021-03-09T21:21:27Z Cesdo joined #lisp 2021-03-09T21:25:22Z hvxgr_ joined #lisp 2021-03-09T21:26:01Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-09T21:26:41Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-09T21:28:56Z wsinatra quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-09T21:32:06Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-03-09T21:32:08Z warweasle quit (Quit: later) 2021-03-09T21:35:18Z moon-child joined #lisp 2021-03-09T21:35:18Z curtosis is now known as curtosis[away] 2021-03-09T21:37:00Z hvxgr_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-09T21:40:15Z moon-child quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-09T21:42:11Z curtosis[away] quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-09T21:42:38Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-09T21:42:46Z hvxgr_ joined #lisp 2021-03-09T21:43:05Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2021-03-09T21:45:53Z moon-child joined #lisp 2021-03-09T21:45:57Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-09T21:46:22Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-09T21:49:02Z moon-child quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-09T21:49:17Z hvxgr_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-09T21:53:20Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-03-09T21:55:10Z mmohammadi9812 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-09T22:01:05Z mmohammadi9812 joined #lisp 2021-03-09T22:01:29Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-03-09T22:02:07Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-09T22:06:04Z moon-child joined #lisp 2021-03-09T22:10:36Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-09T22:14:15Z moon-child quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-09T22:15:40Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-09T22:16:03Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2021-03-09T22:27:38Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-09T22:28:14Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-09T22:30:52Z hvxgr_ joined #lisp 2021-03-09T22:36:27Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2021-03-09T22:49:45Z hvxgr_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-09T22:50:15Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-03-09T22:51:13Z gitgoood is now known as gitgppd 2021-03-09T22:51:15Z gitgppd is now known as gitgood 2021-03-09T22:52:26Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-09T22:53:28Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-03-09T22:54:08Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2021-03-09T22:54:50Z mfiano: Bike: still there? 2021-03-09T22:55:02Z Bike: yes 2021-03-09T22:55:32Z mfiano: Is it possible to generalize the compute-slots method to work for any class, such that A and B aren't hard-coded into find, or can we not, due to the undefined ordering? 2021-03-09T22:55:58Z Bike: anything's possible, as long as you have some way to define what slots you want first 2021-03-09T22:56:03Z Bike: you are imposing an ordering 2021-03-09T22:56:05Z mfiano: (assuming we want all slots of a particular class, and not some subset of them) 2021-03-09T22:56:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is there some fork and dump trick to saving an executable without kill your sbcl repl? 2021-03-09T22:56:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: And, is this packaged somewhere? 2021-03-09T22:57:26Z mfiano: Bike: Ok, thanks a lot. 2021-03-09T22:57:59Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-03-09T23:02:31Z txxt joined #lisp 2021-03-09T23:02:58Z txxt quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-09T23:03:45Z txxt joined #lisp 2021-03-09T23:05:28Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-09T23:07:26Z pve quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-09T23:07:43Z scymtym: fiddlerwoaroof: there is SWANK/BACKEND:SAVE-IMAGE which attempts a fork-based trick on SBCL. i don't know whether it works 2021-03-09T23:09:17Z teej quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-09T23:14:28Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-09T23:16:17Z teej joined #lisp 2021-03-09T23:17:00Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-09T23:17:21Z moon-child joined #lisp 2021-03-09T23:17:38Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-09T23:19:20Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-09T23:21:17Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-09T23:21:24Z moon-child quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-09T23:25:30Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-09T23:25:57Z jeosol joined #lisp 2021-03-09T23:28:48Z creuxsader quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-03-09T23:29:14Z gitgoood joined #lisp 2021-03-09T23:31:25Z txxt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-09T23:31:56Z gitgood quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-09T23:34:32Z gitgoood is now known as gitgood 2021-03-09T23:37:52Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-09T23:42:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: scymtym: thanks 2021-03-09T23:44:38Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-09T23:45:27Z kevingal_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-09T23:45:28Z kevingal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-09T23:45:42Z elflng quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-09T23:46:11Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-09T23:46:39Z hiroaki__ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-09T23:47:25Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2021-03-09T23:52:11Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-09T23:53:49Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-09T23:54:53Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-10T00:04:12Z hhdave_ joined #lisp 2021-03-10T00:04:24Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-10T00:04:24Z hhdave_ is now known as hhdave 2021-03-10T00:07:59Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-10T00:10:16Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-03-10T00:11:12Z cognemo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-10T00:17:43Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1) 2021-03-10T00:17:57Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-03-10T00:20:10Z nicktick joined #lisp 2021-03-10T00:22:02Z hvxgr_ joined #lisp 2021-03-10T00:23:57Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-03-10T00:24:34Z hendursaga quit (Quit: hendursaga) 2021-03-10T00:25:24Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-03-10T00:32:09Z hvxgr_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-10T00:32:26Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-10T00:33:40Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-03-10T00:34:55Z elflng joined #lisp 2021-03-10T00:36:37Z warweasle joined #lisp 2021-03-10T00:38:33Z hvxgr_ joined #lisp 2021-03-10T00:39:42Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-03-10T00:40:02Z bendersteed quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-10T00:44:07Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-03-10T00:44:10Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2021-03-10T00:45:40Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-10T00:46:07Z scymtym_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-10T00:46:50Z scymtym joined #lisp 2021-03-10T00:52:59Z long4mud joined #lisp 2021-03-10T00:58:07Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-10T01:02:53Z grobe0ba quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-10T01:03:05Z grobe0ba joined #lisp 2021-03-10T01:03:40Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-03-10T01:10:12Z mfiano: Bike: Can you look at my code? I'm running into a problem. 2021-03-10T01:10:19Z Bike: ok. 2021-03-10T01:10:37Z mfiano: https://gist.github.com/mfiano/82caddc304b5c25cfb4951b49dceb9e7 2021-03-10T01:10:59Z mfiano: I've no idea why I'm getting that result, even though the result of sort is indeed returning (%A %B %C) 2021-03-10T01:11:23Z scymtym joined #lisp 2021-03-10T01:11:49Z mfiano: ignore the printv debugging calls 2021-03-10T01:14:06Z mfiano: Oh I see, sort of. That's definitely wrong 2021-03-10T01:14:27Z mfiano: The method, that is. Hmm 2021-03-10T01:14:57Z Bike: i don't see any obvious problem 2021-03-10T01:15:31Z mfiano: The problem I see is the (or ... length) 2021-03-10T01:15:46Z Bike: i thought you said compute-slots returned what you want? 2021-03-10T01:15:51Z mfiano: Hmm, that might not be a problem actually 2021-03-10T01:15:55Z mfiano: Yeah 2021-03-10T01:16:13Z scymtym: the MAPCAN may involve constant data. that could theoretically lead to problems 2021-03-10T01:17:02Z mfiano: The result of sort is (# # #) 2021-03-10T01:17:21Z mfiano: Ah yes 2021-03-10T01:17:52Z mfiano: I bet I did it again (modified intenral implementation data structure by use of MAPCAN (is not the first time I did that)) 2021-03-10T01:17:58Z scymtym: maybe put a PRINT around the macro body to make sure the generated code, including the locations, is fine? 2021-03-10T01:18:33Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-10T01:18:48Z mfiano: scymtym: macro expansion looks like https://gist.github.com/mfiano/fdae8c03f881e07921bb2deb4879a76a 2021-03-10T01:19:41Z phoe: this mapcan call mutates SLOTS 2021-03-10T01:19:44Z phoe: and SLOTS come from BODY 2021-03-10T01:19:53Z phoe: and BODY is an argument to a macro 2021-03-10T01:19:57Z phoe: and therefore must not be mutated 2021-03-10T01:20:02Z phoe: that's one instance of UB 2021-03-10T01:20:32Z phoe: oh wait a second; I got it wrong 2021-03-10T01:20:38Z mfiano: Ok, I'll restart and copy that list 2021-03-10T01:20:46Z Bike: throwing a copy-list into the mapcan lambda doesn't seem to change anything. 2021-03-10T01:20:46Z phoe: it operates on quasiquoted data which is literal 2021-03-10T01:20:54Z phoe: or just use a:mappend instead of mapcan 2021-03-10T01:21:00Z phoe: it's a drop-in replacement 2021-03-10T01:21:07Z Bike: anyway, so obviously the accessor functions here have the wrong slot numbers, right? 2021-03-10T01:21:09Z phoe: but what Bike said 2021-03-10T01:21:15Z Bike: it's supposed to be that the unordered slots come after the ordered ones? 2021-03-10T01:21:56Z mfiano: Yeah, I mean the result of SORT puts C last in the return value of COMPUTE-SLOTS, so I would expect C to be index 2 2021-03-10T01:21:59Z Inoperable quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-10T01:22:00Z Bike: ah, because "order" includes the keyword :ORDER 2021-03-10T01:22:05Z Bike: so the positions are one off 2021-03-10T01:22:16Z mfiano: Oh lemme see 2021-03-10T01:22:21Z phoe: hah 2021-03-10T01:22:22Z phoe: nice one! 2021-03-10T01:22:24Z jackdaniel quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-10T01:23:06Z mfiano: Wait, where is the error exactly? 2021-03-10T01:23:20Z Bike: L46 2021-03-10T01:23:22Z phoe: (position x order) 2021-03-10T01:23:24Z Bike: you're doing (position slot-name order) 2021-03-10T01:23:25Z mfiano: Oh right 2021-03-10T01:23:29Z Bike: order is something like (:ORDER %A %B) 2021-03-10T01:23:32Z phoe: s/x/slot-name/ 2021-03-10T01:23:41Z zagura quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-10T01:23:49Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-10T01:24:16Z mfiano: Ok besides that, is there UB going on with modifying literal data? 2021-03-10T01:24:26Z Bike: as long as you throw a copy-list in there i think it's ok 2021-03-10T01:24:27Z mfiano: Or was that a red herring? 2021-03-10T01:24:35Z Bike: i don't think it has anything to do with the issue 2021-03-10T01:24:42Z Bike: but UB is still good to avoid 2021-03-10T01:25:10Z phoe: what Bike said; it's likely unrelated and likely not an issue, but one should not mutate quasiquoted data 2021-03-10T01:25:14Z mfiano: I was asking if there is UB. I'm not sure if destructuring body is creating new lists or reusing literal conses 2021-03-10T01:25:37Z Bike: in the code as written there is UB, because mapcan will nconc the lists returned from the function, and those lists are quasiquoted i.e. constant data 2021-03-10T01:25:39Z phoe: L42 calls mapcan on `(...) which I'd avoid 2021-03-10T01:26:07Z phoe: in the general case `(...) should be treated same as '(...) which is literals 2021-03-10T01:26:23Z phoe: s/literals/as literals/ 2021-03-10T01:26:31Z phoe: just use a:mappend instead of mapcan and you're good to go. 2021-03-10T01:27:19Z mfiano: I always forget about that function, and always forget about the destructive nature. It's not often I reach for mapcan, and when I do, too much time has passed since last time. Sigh 2021-03-10T01:27:26Z mfiano: Well, thanks for the feedback 2021-03-10T01:27:55Z phoe: I have learned that every time I try to use mapcan I want mappend instead 2021-03-10T01:28:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: interesting 2021-03-10T01:28:09Z mfiano: Especially at compile time 2021-03-10T01:28:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: I usually just make sure I have something that forces a new list 2021-03-10T01:28:24Z phoe: unless I explicitly make fresh data in the function, at which point mapcan is, surprisingly, the proper function to use 2021-03-10T01:28:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: e.g. a copy-list 2021-03-10T01:28:44Z phoe: that works too 2021-03-10T01:29:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's one of the more useful functions because it lets you combine a map + a remove-if-* into one callback 2021-03-10T01:29:47Z phoe: but most of the time I do things like (mapcan #'c2mop:generic-function-methods ...) which is a very good prelude for ,sril 2021-03-10T01:30:08Z phoe: and after ,sril and some quiet cursing I grab mappend and continue programming 2021-03-10T01:30:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: This is really why things like SERIES exist 2021-03-10T01:30:41Z phoe: oh wait, it's either ,ril or M-x s-r-i-l 2021-03-10T01:30:57Z mseddon joined #lisp 2021-03-10T01:31:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: They let you have the efficiency of MAPCAN with the safety of MAPPEND 2021-03-10T01:31:24Z mfiano: I must be tired. I am usually questioning myself whenever I use mapcan, because the last time I used it with c2mop, the data it was destructively modifying were SB-MOP internals 2021-03-10T01:31:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: Clojure came up with transducers for the same reason 2021-03-10T01:31:45Z phoe: mfiano: I remember that time 2021-03-10T01:32:01Z phoe: it's strange to remember such things but I remember discussing it with you then 2021-03-10T01:32:05Z mfiano: Haha, yeah and if you remember you know it was 2-3 years ago. I don't use this function often 2021-03-10T01:32:06Z mgr- joined #lisp 2021-03-10T01:32:07Z moon-child joined #lisp 2021-03-10T01:32:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: That's really surprising to me, it's the >>= function from Haskell (monad bind), which is one of the most useful functions around 2021-03-10T01:33:53Z phoe: yes, but for whatever reason the CL package only includes the mutating variant, which you don't really have in haskell 2021-03-10T01:34:07Z phoe: mappend had to be reinvented in alexandria because of that 2021-03-10T01:34:18Z phoe: and in many other independent codebases 2021-03-10T01:34:21Z mfiano: Again, I usually use mappend or copy-list or copy-tree 2021-03-10T01:34:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: Well, haskell does the SERIES optimization automagically for you 2021-03-10T01:34:33Z crypto joined #lisp 2021-03-10T01:34:40Z mfiano: I was just being forgetful in a cascade of bugs to fix 2021-03-10T01:34:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: Most of the intermediate sequences get optimized away by the type system 2021-03-10T01:37:33Z Sheilong quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-10T01:38:59Z deselby quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-10T01:39:00Z theothornhill[m] quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-10T01:39:00Z even4void[m] quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-10T01:39:00Z z0d quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-10T01:39:00Z gingerale quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-10T01:39:00Z mseddon8 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-10T01:39:00Z shenghi quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-10T01:39:00Z mgr_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-10T01:44:57Z gingerale joined #lisp 2021-03-10T01:45:33Z shenghi joined #lisp 2021-03-10T01:45:57Z even4void[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-10T01:46:11Z deselby joined #lisp 2021-03-10T01:46:42Z AniqueB joined #lisp 2021-03-10T01:53:25Z theothornhill[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-10T02:05:49Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-10T02:07:08Z warweasle quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 26.1) 2021-03-10T02:12:26Z cognemo joined #lisp 2021-03-10T02:14:07Z fitzsim quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-10T02:15:57Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-03-10T02:18:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-10T02:18:25Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-10T02:23:21Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-03-10T02:27:57Z gitgood quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-10T02:31:00Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-03-10T02:34:55Z renzhi quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-10T02:37:18Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-10T02:42:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-10T02:42:26Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-10T02:45:02Z pfdietz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-10T02:45:15Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2021-03-10T02:45:54Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-10T02:46:37Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2021-03-10T02:47:26Z renzhi joined #lisp 2021-03-10T02:54:51Z kreyren quit (Changing host) 2021-03-10T02:54:51Z kreyren joined #lisp 2021-03-10T02:54:51Z kreyren quit (Changing host) 2021-03-10T02:54:51Z kreyren joined #lisp 2021-03-10T03:01:22Z CrazyPython quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-10T03:02:22Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-10T03:05:26Z rwcom60280385034 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-10T03:15:06Z rickygee joined #lisp 2021-03-10T03:15:36Z semz joined #lisp 2021-03-10T03:20:51Z Gromboli quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-10T03:22:45Z Gromboli joined #lisp 2021-03-10T03:23:39Z AniqueB quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5+deb4 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-10T03:31:48Z toorevitimirp quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-10T03:32:26Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-10T03:38:27Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-10T03:44:35Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2021-03-10T03:47:06Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-10T03:47:41Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-10T03:48:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-10T03:48:24Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2021-03-10T03:48:26Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-10T03:49:31Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-03-10T03:57:43Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-10T04:00:21Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2021-03-10T04:02:12Z Alfr is now known as Guest74436 2021-03-10T04:02:13Z Guest74436 quit (Killed (egan.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))) 2021-03-10T04:02:17Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-03-10T04:10:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: morning, beach! 2021-03-10T04:10:14Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-10T04:15:36Z epony quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-10T04:16:42Z epony joined #lisp 2021-03-10T04:26:22Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-10T04:27:29Z aindilis joined #lisp 2021-03-10T04:32:19Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-10T04:36:02Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-10T04:55:05Z gzj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-10T04:55:25Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-10T04:59:34Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-10T05:00:16Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-10T05:00:23Z karlosz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-10T05:00:36Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-10T05:02:23Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2021-03-10T05:03:14Z pfdietz quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-10T05:08:42Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2021-03-10T05:09:45Z aartaka_d quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-10T05:09:50Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-10T05:13:55Z kaiwulf quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-10T05:16:39Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-10T05:17:13Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-10T05:28:11Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-03-10T05:34:14Z pfdietz quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-10T05:37:36Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-10T05:38:22Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-10T05:39:11Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-03-10T05:40:31Z fengshaun_ quit (Quit: bibi!) 2021-03-10T05:40:54Z fengshaun joined #lisp 2021-03-10T05:41:53Z matryoshka` joined #lisp 2021-03-10T05:42:02Z matryoshka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-10T05:43:47Z mmohammadi9812 quit (Quit: Quit) 2021-03-10T05:48:29Z Bike quit (Quit: sleepin) 2021-03-10T05:55:09Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-10T05:55:24Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-10T06:02:08Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-10T06:05:39Z neuralisp joined #lisp 2021-03-10T06:09:19Z jackdaniel joined #lisp 2021-03-10T06:10:39Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-03-10T06:11:52Z fitzsim joined #lisp 2021-03-10T06:12:31Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-03-10T06:24:32Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-10T06:28:47Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-03-10T06:29:13Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-10T06:33:06Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-10T06:39:03Z johannes joined #lisp 2021-03-10T06:39:14Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-10T06:39:40Z iskander quit (Quit: bye) 2021-03-10T06:42:13Z sauvin joined #lisp 2021-03-10T06:43:23Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-03-10T06:46:19Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-10T06:46:19Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2021-03-10T06:46:19Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-10T06:46:50Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-10T06:47:02Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-10T06:52:56Z neuralisp quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-10T06:57:45Z andrei-n joined #lisp 2021-03-10T07:06:50Z contrapunctus quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-10T07:08:05Z pranavats quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-10T07:09:42Z neuralisp joined #lisp 2021-03-10T07:19:04Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-10T07:21:30Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-10T07:23:57Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-03-10T07:25:28Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2021-03-10T07:28:02Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-10T07:29:15Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-10T07:29:21Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-10T07:29:49Z crypto is now known as z0d 2021-03-10T07:35:49Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-03-10T07:36:03Z kevingal_ joined #lisp 2021-03-10T07:45:03Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-10T07:45:25Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-03-10T07:48:23Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-03-10T07:50:24Z surabax joined #lisp 2021-03-10T07:51:27Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-10T07:57:56Z frost-lab3 joined #lisp 2021-03-10T08:00:58Z frost-lab quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-10T08:02:20Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-10T08:03:09Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-10T08:03:58Z sauvin is now known as Lemniscate 2021-03-10T08:06:20Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-10T08:11:25Z matryoshka` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-10T08:12:40Z matryoshka joined #lisp 2021-03-10T08:14:14Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-10T08:14:21Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-10T08:16:27Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-10T08:20:08Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-10T08:21:04Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-03-10T08:23:08Z andrei-n quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-10T08:24:28Z Cesdo quit (Read error: No route to host) 2021-03-10T08:30:12Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-10T08:34:26Z neuralisp quit (Quit: neuralisp) 2021-03-10T08:35:46Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-03-10T08:36:43Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-10T08:42:02Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-10T08:42:03Z nicktick joined #lisp 2021-03-10T08:49:05Z yonkunas quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-10T08:49:46Z frost-lab3 quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-10T08:50:01Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2021-03-10T08:53:45Z pve joined #lisp 2021-03-10T08:57:32Z madnificent_ is now known as madnificent 2021-03-10T09:05:21Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-10T09:06:09Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2021-03-10T09:08:13Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-03-10T09:09:59Z Demosthe1ex joined #lisp 2021-03-10T09:11:07Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-03-10T09:11:28Z aggin joined #lisp 2021-03-10T09:11:29Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-10T09:11:42Z akoana joined #lisp 2021-03-10T09:13:23Z Demosthenex quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-10T09:21:26Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-10T09:24:28Z frost-lab quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-10T09:28:46Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2021-03-10T09:29:55Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-10T09:31:06Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-03-10T09:31:06Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2021-03-10T09:31:06Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-03-10T09:33:17Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-03-10T09:35:57Z aggin quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-10T09:40:34Z ptrkriz joined #lisp 2021-03-10T09:51:49Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-03-10T09:58:16Z heisig joined #lisp 2021-03-10T10:00:11Z gpiero_ joined #lisp 2021-03-10T10:04:18Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-10T10:04:21Z gpiero_ quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-10T10:05:09Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-03-10T10:05:12Z gpiero_ joined #lisp 2021-03-10T10:10:26Z gpiero_ quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-03-10T10:12:12Z Bourne joined #lisp 2021-03-10T10:13:48Z jeosol quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-10T10:21:26Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-10T10:24:33Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-10T10:25:31Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-03-10T10:26:00Z Feldman quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-10T10:27:44Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-10T10:28:03Z splittist: Those following along at home will be relieved that my 120 line buggy function is now a 12 line working function 2021-03-10T10:31:37Z phoe: :O 2021-03-10T10:31:41Z phoe: I want to see the evolution 2021-03-10T10:31:43Z phoe: really 2021-03-10T10:33:08Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-10T10:34:05Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-10T10:35:06Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-10T10:35:23Z edgar-rft: you just simply have deleted all the bugs? :-) 2021-03-10T10:36:21Z infra_red[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM) 2021-03-10T10:36:26Z sepanko_ quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM) 2021-03-10T10:36:26Z arichiardi[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM) 2021-03-10T10:36:26Z susam quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM) 2021-03-10T10:36:26Z ey[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM) 2021-03-10T10:36:27Z loke[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM) 2021-03-10T10:36:27Z etimmons quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM) 2021-03-10T10:36:28Z equwal quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM) 2021-03-10T10:36:28Z katco quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM) 2021-03-10T10:36:28Z quanta[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM) 2021-03-10T10:36:28Z ThaEwat quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM) 2021-03-10T10:36:28Z dmiles[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM) 2021-03-10T10:36:28Z kreyren quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM) 2021-03-10T10:36:29Z theothornhill[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM) 2021-03-10T10:36:30Z ey[m]1 quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM) 2021-03-10T10:36:31Z Gnuxie[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM) 2021-03-10T10:37:11Z cloudy[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM) 2021-03-10T10:37:11Z ms[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM) 2021-03-10T10:37:11Z harlchen[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM) 2021-03-10T10:37:11Z even4void[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM) 2021-03-10T10:37:11Z posthuman_egrego quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM) 2021-03-10T10:37:11Z MrtnDk[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM) 2021-03-10T10:37:11Z arcontethegreat[ quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM) 2021-03-10T10:37:11Z deselby quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM) 2021-03-10T10:37:11Z dieggsy quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM) 2021-03-10T10:37:11Z gpiero quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-03-10T10:40:39Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-10T10:47:12Z posthuman_egrego joined #lisp 2021-03-10T10:52:16Z rgherdt quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-10T10:52:53Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-10T10:53:55Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-10T10:54:11Z xlei quit (Quit: ZNC - https://znc.in) 2021-03-10T11:00:06Z vegansbane6963 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-03-10T11:00:53Z jeosol joined #lisp 2021-03-10T11:03:00Z akoana quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-10T11:08:09Z arichiardi[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-10T11:08:10Z even4void[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-10T11:08:12Z kreyren joined #lisp 2021-03-10T11:08:12Z katco joined #lisp 2021-03-10T11:08:13Z Gnuxie[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-10T11:08:13Z etimmons joined #lisp 2021-03-10T11:08:13Z susam joined #lisp 2021-03-10T11:08:13Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2021-03-10T11:08:13Z arcontethegreat[ joined #lisp 2021-03-10T11:08:13Z infra_red[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-10T11:08:13Z ThaEwat joined #lisp 2021-03-10T11:08:13Z loke[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-10T11:08:13Z MrtnDk[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-10T11:08:13Z deselby joined #lisp 2021-03-10T11:08:13Z quanta[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-10T11:08:13Z dmiles[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-10T11:08:14Z ms[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-10T11:08:16Z sepanko_ joined #lisp 2021-03-10T11:08:18Z equwal joined #lisp 2021-03-10T11:08:19Z cloudy[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-10T11:08:19Z theothornhill[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-10T11:08:19Z ey[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-10T11:08:50Z ey[m]1 joined #lisp 2021-03-10T11:08:51Z harlchen[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-10T11:12:04Z xlei joined #lisp 2021-03-10T11:14:08Z splittist: edgar-rft: something like that (: A bit of refactoring. And a change of algorithm. 2021-03-10T11:14:50Z devon joined #lisp 2021-03-10T11:16:05Z pranavats joined #lisp 2021-03-10T11:24:36Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-03-10T11:25:36Z xvzf joined #lisp 2021-03-10T11:29:14Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-03-10T11:32:29Z flip214: and a different programming language. different OS. different architecture. and, last but not least, a different universe without Murphy's Law. 2021-03-10T11:33:15Z jeosol quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-10T11:33:33Z jeosol joined #lisp 2021-03-10T11:36:33Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-10T11:37:45Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-10T11:48:21Z gitgood joined #lisp 2021-03-10T11:50:29Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-10T11:50:58Z xvzf quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-10T11:51:15Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-10T12:01:28Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-10T12:03:53Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-10T12:04:34Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-03-10T12:19:11Z splittist: Here's a sketch of the before and after https://dpaste.com/89DUP9YGN 2021-03-10T12:25:04Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-03-10T12:25:36Z rozenglass quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-10T12:32:42Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-10T12:33:01Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-10T12:39:14Z gitgood quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-10T12:39:32Z gitgood joined #lisp 2021-03-10T12:42:15Z andrei-n joined #lisp 2021-03-10T12:42:33Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-10T12:45:16Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-10T12:46:09Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-10T12:47:38Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-10T12:49:14Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-10T12:51:25Z ptrkriz quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-03-10T12:55:20Z gxt quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-10T12:59:39Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-10T13:00:07Z nk_ joined #lisp 2021-03-10T13:00:28Z nk_ left #lisp 2021-03-10T13:07:04Z jackdaniel: splittist: the version "before" looks super-smart! ;) 2021-03-10T13:07:41Z jackdaniel: the "after" looks like a plain code. hence: use the "before" to show off ^_^ 2021-03-10T13:18:45Z warweasle joined #lisp 2021-03-10T13:20:47Z andrei-n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-10T13:20:56Z andrei-n joined #lisp 2021-03-10T13:22:45Z splittist: jackdaniel: noted (: 2021-03-10T13:26:45Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-10T13:28:38Z long4mud quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-10T13:28:54Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-03-10T13:29:57Z rickygee quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-10T13:35:16Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-10T13:38:09Z Demosthe1ex is now known as Demosthenex 2021-03-10T13:39:13Z waleee-cl joined #lisp 2021-03-10T13:45:00Z gxt joined #lisp 2021-03-10T13:49:58Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-10T13:53:42Z mjl quit 2021-03-10T13:53:59Z mjl joined #lisp 2021-03-10T13:54:49Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-03-10T13:56:46Z splittist quit 2021-03-10T13:57:02Z splittist joined #lisp 2021-03-10T14:01:47Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2021-03-10T14:01:57Z rickygee joined #lisp 2021-03-10T14:08:21Z yonkunas joined #lisp 2021-03-10T14:09:50Z pfdietz left #lisp 2021-03-10T14:10:03Z yitzi joined #lisp 2021-03-10T14:17:25Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2021-03-10T14:18:26Z orivej_ joined #lisp 2021-03-10T14:18:27Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-10T14:20:46Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-10T14:25:11Z madage joined #lisp 2021-03-10T14:27:33Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-10T14:32:48Z ffwacom quit 2021-03-10T14:33:07Z kaiwulf joined #lisp 2021-03-10T14:33:10Z ffwacom joined #lisp 2021-03-10T14:37:09Z nk_ joined #lisp 2021-03-10T14:38:33Z nk_ quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-10T14:39:54Z deltab quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-10T14:42:08Z _jrjsmrtn quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-10T14:42:37Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp 2021-03-10T14:44:22Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-10T14:44:57Z rickygee quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-10T14:46:11Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-10T14:46:12Z Feldman quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-10T14:48:40Z deltab joined #lisp 2021-03-10T14:52:04Z nicktick joined #lisp 2021-03-10T14:55:07Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-03-10T14:55:44Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-10T14:56:43Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-10T14:58:38Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-10T15:03:36Z theothornhill quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-10T15:04:32Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-10T15:06:28Z terpri_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-10T15:06:48Z terpri_ joined #lisp 2021-03-10T15:07:38Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-10T15:11:07Z sjl joined #lisp 2021-03-10T15:18:08Z gitgood quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-10T15:18:32Z gitgood joined #lisp 2021-03-10T15:19:45Z orivej_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-10T15:23:49Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-10T15:26:21Z johannes quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-10T15:32:34Z aartaka_d quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-10T15:48:24Z rickygee joined #lisp 2021-03-10T15:50:07Z hjudt joined #lisp 2021-03-10T15:56:59Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-03-10T15:57:00Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2021-03-10T15:57:00Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-03-10T16:00:11Z posthuman_egrego quit (Quit: Idle for 30+ days) 2021-03-10T16:01:23Z gpiero joined #lisp 2021-03-10T16:02:40Z gpiero quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-10T16:04:20Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-10T16:06:38Z Bourne quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-10T16:13:07Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-10T16:14:33Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-10T16:15:01Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-10T16:15:13Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-03-10T16:23:39Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2021-03-10T16:24:12Z gitgoood joined #lisp 2021-03-10T16:26:57Z gitgood quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-10T16:27:47Z kslt1 joined #lisp 2021-03-10T16:42:02Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-10T16:42:22Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-10T16:43:06Z neuralisp joined #lisp 2021-03-10T16:45:08Z sxmx quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-10T16:46:18Z neuralisp quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-10T16:46:46Z testnick88 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-10T16:47:07Z testnick88 joined #lisp 2021-03-10T16:47:20Z neuralisp joined #lisp 2021-03-10T16:50:09Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-10T16:50:50Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-10T16:52:09Z rickygee quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-10T16:52:33Z neuralisp quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-10T16:52:58Z Demosthenex quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-10T16:53:58Z Demosthenex joined #lisp 2021-03-10T17:00:52Z sxmx joined #lisp 2021-03-10T17:02:16Z rickygee joined #lisp 2021-03-10T17:03:09Z ficl joined #lisp 2021-03-10T17:08:48Z rickygee quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-10T17:13:55Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3)) 2021-03-10T17:16:25Z Josh_2: Good afternoon everyoen 2021-03-10T17:16:28Z Josh_2: everyone :P 2021-03-10T17:16:40Z beach: Hello Josh_2. 2021-03-10T17:16:57Z gitgoood quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-10T17:25:52Z pfdietz quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-10T17:26:03Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-10T17:26:16Z Fade: anybody here affected by the OVH catastrophe in Strasbourg? 2021-03-10T17:27:04Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-03-10T17:27:44Z mfiano: Bike: If I want to prevent setting the ORDER of subclasses of classes using my metaclass, is it the right approach to walk the CPL and extract the order from superclasses with the same metaclass, or is there anything more convenient to help in this regard? 2021-03-10T17:29:18Z CrazyPython joined #lisp 2021-03-10T17:29:45Z beach: Fade: Yes, jackdaniel. 2021-03-10T17:34:59Z edgar-rft: In contrast to Paris only the data center burned down but the cathedral is still standing. 2021-03-10T17:37:08Z rippa joined #lisp 2021-03-10T17:39:52Z varjagg joined #lisp 2021-03-10T17:40:22Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-10T17:43:04Z NULLean joined #lisp 2021-03-10T17:44:59Z amerigo joined #lisp 2021-03-10T17:44:59Z casual_friday_ quit (Quit: %bye%) 2021-03-10T17:45:13Z jeosol quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-10T17:46:05Z casual_friday joined #lisp 2021-03-10T17:46:12Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-10T17:46:30Z jeosol joined #lisp 2021-03-10T17:47:18Z devon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-10T17:48:16Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2021-03-10T17:48:24Z jackdaniel: Fade: right, my server is down. luckily I don't host my own mail for a few months already 2021-03-10T17:48:46Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-03-10T17:50:40Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-03-10T17:51:57Z renzhi quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-10T17:52:33Z devon joined #lisp 2021-03-10T18:00:44Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-10T18:01:07Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-10T18:01:19Z iskander- joined #lisp 2021-03-10T18:01:26Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-10T18:01:48Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-10T18:07:39Z asarch joined #lisp 2021-03-10T18:09:52Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-10T18:10:05Z jonatack quit (Quit: jonatack) 2021-03-10T18:10:23Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-10T18:10:24Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-10T18:10:59Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-10T18:11:33Z jonatack quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-10T18:11:48Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-10T18:12:39Z jonatack quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-10T18:12:59Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-10T18:15:22Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-10T18:16:57Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-03-10T18:19:22Z gpiero joined #lisp 2021-03-10T18:23:28Z iskander- quit (Quit: bye) 2021-03-10T18:25:06Z varjagg is now known as varjag 2021-03-10T18:25:22Z HiRE quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-10T18:25:46Z HiRE joined #lisp 2021-03-10T18:34:14Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-10T18:35:09Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-10T18:43:08Z Bike: mfiano: i thought all subclasses were defined via a macro you export? 2021-03-10T18:43:08Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-10T18:44:24Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-10T18:44:49Z mfiano: Bike: Yes. The usage of the macro is (define-ordered-class foo (superclasses) slots (:order direct-slot-1 ... direct-slot-N)), however, if foo is a subclass of another ordered class, I want to prevent specifying an ordering of the superclass slots in exactly the same order as they appear in the superclass. 2021-03-10T18:44:51Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-10T18:44:59Z terpri_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-10T18:45:05Z Bike: why don't you just export a macro that doesn't allow setting the order 2021-03-10T18:45:18Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-10T18:45:21Z terpri_ joined #lisp 2021-03-10T18:45:25Z sauvin_ joined #lisp 2021-03-10T18:45:28Z mfiano: I wasn't able to work that out for the manner of use I need 2021-03-10T18:46:44Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-10T18:46:45Z Bike: huh? just do (defmacro exported-definer (name superclasses slots) `(define-ordered-class ,name ,superclasses ,slots)). bam, no order specified 2021-03-10T18:46:58Z mfiano: If bar is a subclass of foo, and both are ordered-class's, yet both want to order their own direct slots without respecifying the parent ordering in the subclass, that is my problem 2021-03-10T18:47:08Z Lemniscate quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-10T18:47:11Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-10T18:47:24Z mfiano: ie, both macros have disjoint orderings 2021-03-10T18:47:54Z Bike: are these both definitions you're doing, not the user? 2021-03-10T18:48:23Z wsinatra quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-10T18:49:01Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-03-10T18:49:01Z mfiano: no, the superclass would be mine, and the subclass would be the user. I want the user to be able to order their own slots that come after mine. But that's not to say the user might also want another level of subclasses to do similar 2021-03-10T18:49:07Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-10T18:49:26Z sauvin_ is now known as Sauvin 2021-03-10T18:50:19Z Bike: well, i guess if you want to export that, and the user has access to your slot names, you could put a method on validate-superclass to reject if the orders are incompatible 2021-03-10T18:51:01Z mfiano: They would not have access to my slot names. The parent class would be an implementation detail 2021-03-10T18:51:11Z save-lisp-or-die joined #lisp 2021-03-10T18:52:34Z Bike: in that case i suppose you need to make the slot orderings inheritable. similar to the slots themselves, each class could have a "direct" slot order that was specified for it, and then an "effective" order composed from its direct order and its superclasses' direct orders 2021-03-10T18:53:10Z mfiano: That makes sense, I'll think about that some more, thanks. 2021-03-10T18:53:12Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-10T18:53:51Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-10T18:58:11Z jonatack quit (Quit: jonatack) 2021-03-10T18:58:11Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-10T18:58:47Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-10T19:01:21Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-10T19:05:16Z epony quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-10T19:05:29Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-03-10T19:07:58Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-10T19:09:13Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-10T19:13:22Z wsinatra quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-10T19:13:23Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-10T19:13:30Z wsinatra_ joined #lisp 2021-03-10T19:13:37Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-10T19:14:14Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-10T19:17:12Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-03-10T19:18:39Z wsinatra_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-10T19:22:40Z sjl quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3-dev) 2021-03-10T19:22:40Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-10T19:22:52Z casual_friday quit (Excess Flood) 2021-03-10T19:23:12Z casual_friday joined #lisp 2021-03-10T19:23:25Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-10T19:26:09Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-03-10T19:26:31Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-10T19:26:51Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-10T19:26:53Z mfiano: Well I got the direct-order and effective-order computed, but I'm wondering how to actually use the effective-order to generate the fast accessor functions in the expansion of the macro, since it's stored in the class that is not yet realized. 2021-03-10T19:27:10Z mfiano: Needs more thought. 2021-03-10T19:28:40Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-10T19:28:40Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-10T19:28:55Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-10T19:29:08Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-10T19:30:27Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-03-10T19:32:33Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-10T19:33:17Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-10T19:33:49Z mfiano: Only way I know how to do it is to finalize the classes, but then I couldn't forward-reference. 2021-03-10T19:33:51Z rixard joined #lisp 2021-03-10T19:34:03Z attila_lendvai_ joined #lisp 2021-03-10T19:34:04Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-10T19:34:15Z _Ark_ joined #lisp 2021-03-10T19:34:21Z villanella1 joined #lisp 2021-03-10T19:34:29Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-10T19:34:33Z CrazyPyt_ joined #lisp 2021-03-10T19:34:33Z hineios1 joined #lisp 2021-03-10T19:34:39Z IPmonger_ joined #lisp 2021-03-10T19:34:45Z epony joined #lisp 2021-03-10T19:35:13Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-10T19:35:28Z madand_ joined #lisp 2021-03-10T19:35:33Z copec_ joined #lisp 2021-03-10T19:35:35Z wigust- joined #lisp 2021-03-10T19:35:35Z idxu_ joined #lisp 2021-03-10T19:35:38Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2021-03-10T19:36:26Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-10T19:36:27Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-10T19:36:34Z gpiero_ joined #lisp 2021-03-10T19:36:42Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-10T19:37:21Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-10T19:37:40Z mfiano: Bike: Do you have any suggestions? I don't have the CPL until finalization, so I can't generate the accessors in the macro without finalization currently, which makes it a bit less usable. 2021-03-10T19:38:01Z Lord_Nightmare2 joined #lisp 2021-03-10T19:38:05Z hvxgr__ joined #lisp 2021-03-10T19:38:11Z pacon_ joined #lisp 2021-03-10T19:38:25Z Xach_ joined #lisp 2021-03-10T19:38:28Z crypto joined #lisp 2021-03-10T19:38:31Z Tordek_ joined #lisp 2021-03-10T19:38:31Z mfiano: Currently the effective order is computed and written to the class in compute-slots 2021-03-10T19:40:51Z Bike: i guess you need to save the order information in the environment at compile time 2021-03-10T19:40:51Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-10T19:41:03Z Bike: which is doable, if exotic. maybe you should just use defstruct instead of bothering with all of this 2021-03-10T19:41:29Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-10T19:42:22Z mfiano: Yeah that is a little exotic, and I am rewriting a complex system that is using defstruct 2021-03-10T19:42:22Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-10T19:42:38Z flip214_ joined #lisp 2021-03-10T19:42:42Z save-lisp-or-die quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-10T19:42:43Z gpiero quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-10T19:42:43Z CrazyPython quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-10T19:42:43Z villanella quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-10T19:42:43Z attila_lendvai quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-10T19:42:43Z vegansbane6963 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-10T19:42:43Z Lord_Nightmare quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-10T19:42:43Z Lord_of_Life quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-10T19:42:43Z z0d quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-10T19:42:43Z hvxgr_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-10T19:42:43Z vaporatorius quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-10T19:42:43Z flazh quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-10T19:42:43Z copec quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-10T19:42:43Z idxu quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-10T19:42:43Z hineios quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-10T19:42:43Z rixard_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-10T19:42:44Z Xach quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-10T19:42:44Z madand quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-10T19:42:44Z froggey quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-10T19:44:23Z ark quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-10T19:44:23Z IPmonger quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-10T19:44:23Z Tordek quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-10T19:44:23Z amk quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-10T19:44:23Z pacon quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-10T19:44:23Z mathrick quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-10T19:44:23Z flip214 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-10T19:44:23Z wigust quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-10T19:44:23Z copec_ is now known as copec 2021-03-10T19:44:23Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2021-03-10T19:44:23Z idxu_ is now known as idxu 2021-03-10T19:44:23Z hineios1 is now known as hineios 2021-03-10T19:44:23Z Lord_Nightmare2 is now known as Lord_Nightmare 2021-03-10T19:44:23Z mfiano: For user-exposed API defstruct won't do with a live-recompilable game engine. 2021-03-10T19:44:23Z Bike: if it's recompilable you are going to hit more problems 2021-03-10T19:44:23Z amk joined #lisp 2021-03-10T19:44:23Z mfiano: A friend of mine is also interested in experiemnting with s-i-a for his game engine 2021-03-10T19:44:23Z Bike: say you redefine a superclass to have more ordered slots. suddenly, all subclass accessors are using the wrong positions 2021-03-10T19:44:23Z mfiano: Well the superclass is never going to change 2021-03-10T19:44:23Z Bike: really? really really? you said users can define these ordered classes. 2021-03-10T19:44:23Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-10T19:44:23Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-10T19:44:23Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-03-10T19:44:23Z kevingal_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-10T19:44:23Z kevingal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-10T19:44:23Z save-lisp-or-die joined #lisp 2021-03-10T19:44:23Z Bike: and if the classes really will never change, why not just ues defstruct? you're already abandoning recompilation of them in particular 2021-03-10T19:44:23Z mfiano: THis is so the engine internals always has fast access to the ordered slots of the private superclass. It is the user's responsibility to consider the static nature of their own code 2021-03-10T19:44:45Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-10T19:45:11Z crypto is now known as z0d 2021-03-10T19:45:20Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-10T19:45:42Z froggey joined #lisp 2021-03-10T19:46:32Z mfiano: The engine-internal superclass of user-defined classes via a macro will not change, and the system depends on the MOP in other areas, so CLOS is needed 2021-03-10T19:48:23Z Bike: implementations with mop usually let you use it with structure classes to some extent 2021-03-10T19:48:35Z mathrick joined #lisp 2021-03-10T19:48:37Z Bike: but if you want to keep doing this, you are going to have to put information in the environment, like defstruct does 2021-03-10T19:48:43Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2021-03-10T19:48:43Z vaporatorius quit (Changing host) 2021-03-10T19:48:43Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2021-03-10T19:48:45Z Bike: you can hack it in with define-symbol-macro 2021-03-10T19:50:37Z flazh joined #lisp 2021-03-10T19:51:34Z mfiano: You're right. For this particular macro it is fairly uncommon for users to want any inheritance apart from the implementation detail engine class. It is probably best to not expose the ability for user slot orderings. 2021-03-10T19:52:34Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-10T20:04:58Z yitzi quit (Quit: yitzi) 2021-03-10T20:08:33Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-10T20:14:51Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-10T20:15:53Z matryoshka joined #lisp 2021-03-10T20:25:23Z ficl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-10T20:27:10Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-10T20:29:31Z eschulte joined #lisp 2021-03-10T20:29:54Z zupss quit 2021-03-10T20:30:05Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-03-10T20:30:06Z Xach_ quit (Changing host) 2021-03-10T20:30:06Z Xach_ joined #lisp 2021-03-10T20:31:51Z kslt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-10T20:34:17Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-10T20:36:00Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2021-03-10T20:37:32Z Josh_2: mfiano: are you rewriting your game engine? 2021-03-10T20:40:09Z mfiano: Haha, which one? I am thinking about a redesign, of one of them, as countless games have got shutdown due to performance after several months of development over the last few years, and I don't have enough desire to use any other language. 2021-03-10T20:44:56Z gpiero_ quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-03-10T20:45:26Z andrei-n quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-10T20:45:32Z gpiero joined #lisp 2021-03-10T20:47:03Z supercoven_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-10T20:50:57Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-10T20:53:58Z amerigo quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-10T20:58:30Z vhost- quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-10T20:59:57Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-10T21:00:14Z vhost- joined #lisp 2021-03-10T21:02:36Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-10T21:03:59Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-10T21:04:55Z Josh_2: You wrote a blog post about a game engine and running into performance issues, I just assumed you were rewriting that 2021-03-10T21:05:29Z testnick88 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-10T21:06:14Z mfiano: Still in the design process, and probably will be for some months, so not much writing (code). 2021-03-10T21:06:33Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-10T21:06:39Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-10T21:09:40Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-10T21:12:13Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-10T21:12:40Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-10T21:13:00Z Josh_2: oh right, so what are you working on now? 2021-03-10T21:13:11Z matryoshka joined #lisp 2021-03-10T21:13:33Z wsinatra_ joined #lisp 2021-03-10T21:13:45Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-10T21:13:54Z wsinatra quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-10T21:19:51Z recalloc joined #lisp 2021-03-10T21:26:05Z mfiano: The above? Just exploring some pieces to get an idea for my design document. 2021-03-10T21:26:26Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-10T21:27:46Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-10T21:30:57Z warweasle quit (Quit: later doods.) 2021-03-10T21:31:13Z Josh_2: Oh I see 2021-03-10T21:31:15Z wsinatra_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-10T21:31:16Z Josh_2: very cool :) 2021-03-10T21:31:19Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-03-10T21:31:50Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-10T21:34:00Z jonatack_ quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-10T21:34:19Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-03-10T21:35:21Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-10T21:41:55Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-10T21:42:22Z villanella1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-10T21:42:34Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-10T21:42:43Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-10T21:42:55Z bendersteed joined #lisp 2021-03-10T21:42:58Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-10T21:46:51Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-10T21:48:50Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-10T21:49:23Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-03-10T21:49:47Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-10T21:53:49Z jonatack_ quit (Quit: jonatack_) 2021-03-10T21:54:11Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-10T21:56:11Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-03-10T21:56:29Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-03-10T21:57:37Z ft quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-10T22:03:27Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-10T22:23:52Z eschulte: Can anyone point me to example code passing strings, ideally UTF-8, between C and ECL?  I've compiled a common-lisp system to a .so w/ECL but I'm having trouble reliably using it from C. 2021-03-10T22:28:09Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-10T22:32:49Z gitgood joined #lisp 2021-03-10T22:33:33Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-10T22:34:37Z curtosis joined #lisp 2021-03-10T22:34:38Z curtosis is now known as curtosis[away] 2021-03-10T22:35:19Z eschulte: I'd like to ask on the ecl-devel mailing list, but I'm having trouble subscribing 2021-03-10T22:36:09Z phoe: there's also #ecl that could possibly help you with both issues 2021-03-10T22:36:16Z phoe: which is strings and mailing list 2021-03-10T22:39:49Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-10T22:41:15Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-03-10T22:46:04Z pve quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-10T22:47:52Z ft joined #lisp 2021-03-10T22:49:16Z eschulte: ah, thanks, I should have thought of that 2021-03-10T22:50:30Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-10T22:50:54Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-10T22:52:57Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-10T22:53:12Z bendersteed quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-10T22:54:12Z gitgoood joined #lisp 2021-03-10T22:57:19Z gitgood quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-10T23:05:27Z mgsk quit 2021-03-10T23:05:50Z mgsk joined #lisp 2021-03-10T23:08:15Z curtosis[away] quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-10T23:09:06Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-10T23:11:22Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-10T23:18:38Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-10T23:26:02Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-10T23:26:57Z hjudt quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-10T23:29:49Z luckless joined #lisp 2021-03-10T23:30:02Z luckless is now known as azimut 2021-03-10T23:45:29Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-03-10T23:50:42Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-10T23:55:09Z eschulte quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2021-03-10T23:55:18Z attila_lendvai_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-11T00:04:10Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-03-11T00:07:57Z bugrum joined #lisp 2021-03-11T00:08:18Z cognemo_ joined #lisp 2021-03-11T00:08:21Z cognemo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-11T00:12:20Z nicktick joined #lisp 2021-03-11T00:13:17Z azimut quit (Quit: azimut) 2021-03-11T00:14:47Z nicktick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-11T00:16:57Z curtosis joined #lisp 2021-03-11T00:18:59Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-03-11T00:19:10Z nicktick joined #lisp 2021-03-11T00:42:35Z jonathan- quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-11T00:43:24Z eschulte joined #lisp 2021-03-11T00:51:02Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-11T00:59:30Z kslt1 joined #lisp 2021-03-11T01:05:01Z kslt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T01:12:38Z terpri_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-11T01:13:49Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-11T01:13:49Z Gromboli quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-11T01:14:43Z terpri joined #lisp 2021-03-11T01:18:37Z Gromboli joined #lisp 2021-03-11T01:26:10Z eschulte quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2021-03-11T01:29:39Z Gromboli9 joined #lisp 2021-03-11T01:31:45Z Gromboli quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-11T01:31:45Z Gromboli9 is now known as Gromboli 2021-03-11T01:43:15Z nicktick joined #lisp 2021-03-11T01:47:54Z estest quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-03-11T01:52:13Z gxt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T01:55:51Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2021-03-11T01:57:18Z gxt joined #lisp 2021-03-11T02:02:42Z kevingal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T02:09:39Z Stargazer05 joined #lisp 2021-03-11T02:12:42Z nicktick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T02:13:27Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-11T02:15:16Z ldb joined #lisp 2021-03-11T02:15:28Z ldb: good morning 2021-03-11T02:18:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is there a standard way to load a file only when a certain combinations of systems are loaded? 2021-03-11T02:19:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm thinking of wrapping some ASDF functionality to provide a way to have a system declare a "pending" component that is only actually compiled when some condition is met 2021-03-11T02:20:33Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-11T02:23:20Z Stargazer05 quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-11T02:25:06Z ldb: fiddlerwoaroof: what do you think about #+ and #- 2021-03-11T02:25:52Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-11T02:25:58Z ldb: and *features* 2021-03-11T02:26:59Z curtosis is now known as curtosis[away] 2021-03-11T02:27:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: Doesn't handle the case where I load system1 and then load system2, but system1 has functinality that should be activated if system2 is loaded 2021-03-11T02:27:13Z curtosis[away] is now known as curtosis 2021-03-11T02:27:43Z curtosis is now known as curtosis[away] 2021-03-11T02:27:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: Imagine a library that exposes a generic iteration mechinism, like iterate: if fset is loaded, I want fset collections to be iterable 2021-03-11T02:28:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: Currently, we have solutions like defining a system :iterate/fset that depends on fset 2021-03-11T02:28:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'd like to be able to say "don't load this file yet, but if fset is ever loaded, load this file too" 2021-03-11T02:29:35Z ldb: well, yes. but that means you have to recompile system1 after system2 loaded, if you want things done by ASDF 2021-03-11T02:30:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: Well, sort of 2021-03-11T02:31:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: If it were possible to design an ASDF extension that allowed systems to register pending components, then ASDF could just notice that the precondition for a pending component has been fulfilled and load it 2021-03-11T02:31:28Z anticrisis_ joined #lisp 2021-03-11T02:31:33Z gzj quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-11T02:31:48Z minion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T02:31:50Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-11T02:32:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: :'( minion 2021-03-11T02:32:10Z specbot quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-03-11T02:32:10Z minion joined #lisp 2021-03-11T02:32:13Z specbot joined #lisp 2021-03-11T02:33:38Z gabiruh_ joined #lisp 2021-03-11T02:33:40Z idxu_ joined #lisp 2021-03-11T02:34:55Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-11T02:35:56Z Inline quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T02:36:30Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-11T02:36:30Z ldb: usually, we'd assume that there's no need to recompile a loaded system. so what I'd suggest is make that part of system1 become packaged with system2 2021-03-11T02:36:30Z ldb: and make it optionally depdends on system2 2021-03-11T02:36:30Z ldb: *I mean system1 2021-03-11T02:36:30Z gabiruh quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-11T02:36:30Z idxu quit (Quit: ZNC - https://znc.in) 2021-03-11T02:36:30Z Firedancer_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-11T02:36:30Z idxu_ is now known as idxu 2021-03-11T02:36:35Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-03-11T02:37:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: That doesn't work in the example I mentioend 2021-03-11T02:37:46Z Firedancer_ joined #lisp 2021-03-11T02:38:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: Assume I can't modify system2: it's a third party dependency, or whatever 2021-03-11T02:38:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: Also assume I don't want users to be forced to depend on system2 2021-03-11T02:38:41Z Alfr: fiddlerwoaroof, create a third system depending on both. 2021-03-11T02:38:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: Finally assume that I don't want users to load a third system 2021-03-11T02:39:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: Because that's annoying and results in a large number of systems 2021-03-11T02:39:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: (one system per optional dependency) 2021-03-11T02:39:41Z Alfr: Also I suspect not all systems can be sanely reloaded. 2021-03-11T02:40:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm not talking about reloading a system 2021-03-11T02:41:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: What I'd like is for ASDF to have a "system-loaded-hook" that I could add functions to 2021-03-11T02:43:01Z ldb: I think is hard to assume "can't modify system2" if system2 dependents on system1 2021-03-11T02:43:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, think about iterate and fset: iterate shouldn't force users to load fset 2021-03-11T02:43:48Z ldb: at least the authors should have some kind of cooperation 2021-03-11T02:43:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: But users should be able to use iterate to iterate over data structures provided by fset 2021-03-11T02:44:37Z ldb: fiddlerwoaroof: yes, and that probably means an "optional depdends on" feature 2021-03-11T02:45:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: The issue with that is that it enforces an order between systems 2021-03-11T02:45:03Z Alfr: That's where I'd expect to depend on a fset-iterate system, if I wanted to use that feature. Please don't make automagic dependencies. 2021-03-11T02:45:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: With a long-running repl, I could load iterate yesterday and fset today 2021-03-11T02:45:46Z curtosis[away] quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-11T02:45:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: iterate could tell ASDF "if fset is ever loaded, also load this file" 2021-03-11T02:45:55Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2021-03-11T02:46:06Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-11T02:46:25Z ldb: fiddlerwoaroof: this is the "Weakly depends on" feature mentioned in ASDF manual 2021-03-11T02:46:44Z ldb: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html#Weakly-depends-on 2021-03-11T02:47:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: No, that's different 2021-03-11T02:47:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: Because that still attempts to force fset to be loaded when iterate is 2021-03-11T02:47:18Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2021-03-11T02:49:28Z ldb: you mean it will still load fset if it is found, and you want the user specify if they want use fset related feature? 2021-03-11T02:49:45Z ldb: even the fset system is present? 2021-03-11T02:50:20Z ldb: because make it depends on the order of loading system is too implicit 2021-03-11T02:52:48Z ldb: and even weakly depends on doesn't do exactly you want, the recommendation "we recommend that you should instead write system foo in a parametric way, and offer some special variable and/or some hook to specialize its behaviour; then you should write a system foo+bar that does the hooking of things together." still apply to this situation 2021-03-11T02:54:06Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T02:54:26Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-11T02:55:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T02:55:28Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-11T03:00:52Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-11T03:02:14Z CrazyPyt_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-11T03:03:03Z pfdietz: And then you have to manually load foo+bar. 2021-03-11T03:03:21Z pfdietz: I have encountered this problem. 2021-03-11T03:04:11Z akoana joined #lisp 2021-03-11T03:04:33Z Jeanne-Kamikaze joined #lisp 2021-03-11T03:05:38Z Jeanne-Kamikaze quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2021-03-11T03:05:57Z Jeanne-Kamikaze joined #lisp 2021-03-11T03:06:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm thinking of something like this: https://dpaste.org/GOGU 2021-03-11T03:06:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: You have a *pending-component* registry that system definitions can push things into 2021-03-11T03:06:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: load-system checks after each system is loaded, whether any pending components can now be loaded 2021-03-11T03:06:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: If they can be, it loads them as well 2021-03-11T03:07:23Z anticrisis_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-11T03:09:11Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-03-11T03:10:33Z etimmons: fiddlerwoaroof: have you seen https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf-system-connections/ ? 2021-03-11T03:11:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: That looks sort of like what I'm interested in 2021-03-11T03:14:21Z semz joined #lisp 2021-03-11T03:19:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: It works through an :AFTER method on ASDF:OPERATE 2021-03-11T03:19:41Z kini quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T03:19:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: Which means that it's a little fragile 2021-03-11T03:21:00Z kini joined #lisp 2021-03-11T03:21:16Z Jeanne-Kamikaze is now known as elusive 2021-03-11T03:21:55Z rickygee joined #lisp 2021-03-11T03:23:47Z elusive quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-11T03:23:57Z Jeanne-Kamikaze joined #lisp 2021-03-11T03:33:33Z ldb quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-11T03:37:00Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-03-11T03:38:33Z akoana left #lisp 2021-03-11T03:46:18Z jonathan- joined #lisp 2021-03-11T03:46:20Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T03:48:47Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-11T03:49:18Z tessier joined #lisp 2021-03-11T03:49:18Z tessier quit (Changing host) 2021-03-11T03:49:18Z tessier joined #lisp 2021-03-11T03:53:11Z texno joined #lisp 2021-03-11T03:56:53Z rickygee quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-11T03:57:22Z long4mud joined #lisp 2021-03-11T03:57:38Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-11T04:00:05Z ldb joined #lisp 2021-03-11T04:02:27Z rickygee joined #lisp 2021-03-11T04:02:40Z Alfr is now known as Guest97471 2021-03-11T04:02:44Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-03-11T04:03:57Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2021-03-11T04:04:12Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-11T04:05:37Z Guest97471 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-11T04:09:20Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T04:09:38Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-11T04:18:18Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-11T04:18:41Z texno: Good morning, beach 2021-03-11T04:19:39Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T04:19:54Z texno: I'm a beginner on CL, should I use setq or setf? Does it matter? 2021-03-11T04:20:09Z beach: Welcome to #lisp. 2021-03-11T04:20:28Z texno: Thank you :) 2021-03-11T04:20:28Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-11T04:20:32Z beach: The consensus seems to be to use SETF. 2021-03-11T04:20:41Z Lycurgus: texno, you may also find #clnoobs useful 2021-03-11T04:20:58Z beach: Lycurgus: No! 2021-03-11T04:21:01Z beach: It has changed. 2021-03-11T04:21:06Z beach: It is now #clschool 2021-03-11T04:21:14Z Lycurgus: ah 2021-03-11T04:21:23Z Lycurgus: wise move 2021-03-11T04:21:47Z Lycurgus: i think the old redirects though 2021-03-11T04:21:56Z beach: Ah, OK. 2021-03-11T04:22:13Z texno: Thanks guys 2021-03-11T04:22:18Z beach: Pleasure. 2021-03-11T04:22:32Z Lycurgus: np 2021-03-11T04:22:44Z flazh quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-11T04:23:13Z flazh joined #lisp 2021-03-11T04:23:37Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-11T04:34:07Z liead joined #lisp 2021-03-11T04:34:11Z liead is now known as adlai 2021-03-11T04:34:56Z adlai: what is the equivalence class of the evils spanned by powers of modifications to LOCAL-TIME ? 2021-03-11T04:35:33Z adlai: e.g., let's say I think LOCAL-TIME:FORMAT-TIMESTRING should be a generic function; are these powers acyclic? 2021-03-11T04:46:18Z rickygee quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-11T04:49:47Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-03-11T04:55:48Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-11T04:57:28Z Jeanne-Kamikaze quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-11T04:58:09Z kaiwulf quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-11T05:00:19Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2021-03-11T05:04:42Z pfdietz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-11T05:15:10Z igemnace joined #lisp 2021-03-11T05:15:19Z gitgoood quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-11T05:17:39Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-03-11T05:19:29Z Inline quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-11T05:20:29Z JokerAscensionEx quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T05:28:15Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-03-11T05:29:25Z rickygee joined #lisp 2021-03-11T05:34:39Z rickygee quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-11T05:37:19Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-11T05:46:43Z rigidus joined #lisp 2021-03-11T05:59:32Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-11T05:59:32Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2021-03-11T05:59:32Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-11T05:59:59Z ldb quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-11T06:15:16Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-03-11T06:22:06Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-03-11T06:26:14Z igemnace quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-11T06:29:08Z saturn2 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-11T06:34:30Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-11T06:43:07Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-11T06:45:01Z johannes joined #lisp 2021-03-11T06:45:28Z saturn2 joined #lisp 2021-03-11T06:49:05Z johannes quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-11T06:51:02Z surabax joined #lisp 2021-03-11T07:03:20Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-11T07:03:28Z hineios1 joined #lisp 2021-03-11T07:04:09Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-11T07:04:17Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2021-03-11T07:05:25Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-11T07:05:53Z hineios quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-11T07:05:54Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-11T07:05:54Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2021-03-11T07:05:54Z hineios1 is now known as hineios 2021-03-11T07:07:09Z saturn2 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-11T07:10:04Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-03-11T07:13:31Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T07:13:55Z Bourne joined #lisp 2021-03-11T07:14:06Z Bourne quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T07:14:41Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-03-11T07:15:00Z saturn2 joined #lisp 2021-03-11T07:17:54Z midre quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-11T07:18:17Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-11T07:20:13Z lowryder joined #lisp 2021-03-11T07:20:26Z midre joined #lisp 2021-03-11T07:21:20Z ggole joined #lisp 2021-03-11T07:22:22Z saturn2 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-11T07:24:00Z hjudt joined #lisp 2021-03-11T07:24:39Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-03-11T07:25:14Z midre quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-11T07:25:54Z midre joined #lisp 2021-03-11T07:26:18Z emacsomancer quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-11T07:30:04Z emacsomancer joined #lisp 2021-03-11T07:31:56Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 28.0.50)) 2021-03-11T07:37:57Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-11T07:39:44Z andrei-n joined #lisp 2021-03-11T07:41:24Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-11T07:42:16Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-11T07:47:51Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-03-11T07:48:08Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-11T07:49:14Z devon quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-11T07:49:38Z devon joined #lisp 2021-03-11T07:55:40Z ficl joined #lisp 2021-03-11T07:57:45Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-11T07:58:06Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-03-11T07:58:07Z contrapunctus quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-11T07:58:11Z pokes_ joined #lisp 2021-03-11T08:00:08Z pokes quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-11T08:00:16Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-11T08:01:32Z GZJ0X_ joined #lisp 2021-03-11T08:05:03Z gzj quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-11T08:05:16Z pve joined #lisp 2021-03-11T08:06:38Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-11T08:07:31Z devon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-11T08:07:53Z supercoven joined #lisp 2021-03-11T08:08:23Z devon joined #lisp 2021-03-11T08:09:01Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-11T08:10:51Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-11T08:10:59Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-11T08:11:04Z saturn2 joined #lisp 2021-03-11T08:13:58Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-11T08:15:05Z holycow joined #lisp 2021-03-11T08:19:13Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-03-11T08:19:14Z zupss joined #lisp 2021-03-11T08:21:53Z devon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-11T08:22:45Z z3t0 quit (Quit: Free ZNC ~ Powered by LunarBNC: https://LunarBNC.net) 2021-03-11T08:22:50Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-03-11T08:24:14Z devon joined #lisp 2021-03-11T08:24:56Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-11T08:25:53Z zupss quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-11T08:26:56Z Necktwi quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-11T08:28:53Z Necktwi joined #lisp 2021-03-11T08:29:41Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-11T08:30:50Z zupss joined #lisp 2021-03-11T08:31:11Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-03-11T08:44:59Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-11T08:45:24Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2021-03-11T08:46:14Z devon quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-11T08:54:35Z flip214_: adlai: make a pull request on github 2021-03-11T08:54:36Z holycow quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-03-11T09:07:44Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-03-11T09:08:57Z emacsomancer quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-11T09:10:10Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-11T09:12:11Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-11T09:19:38Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-11T09:21:04Z Guest12106 joined #lisp 2021-03-11T09:21:08Z Guest12106: hi 2021-03-11T09:21:37Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-11T09:21:53Z Guest12106: how do i find out more info about a quicklisp library? looking for a website for cl-rss but find things that don't look right 2021-03-11T09:22:07Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-11T09:22:16Z emacsomancer joined #lisp 2021-03-11T09:22:55Z beach: Hello Guest12106. 2021-03-11T09:29:46Z beach: Did you download it and look at the source? 2021-03-11T09:30:19Z yonkunas quit 2021-03-11T09:30:21Z Guest12106: trying to now, dist-update is slow for some reason 2021-03-11T09:30:35Z yonkunas joined #lisp 2021-03-11T09:31:27Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-03-11T09:34:42Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-11T09:34:45Z montxero joined #lisp 2021-03-11T09:36:31Z jonatack_ quit (Quit: jonatack_) 2021-03-11T09:36:53Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-11T09:38:34Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-11T09:40:56Z attila_lendvai_ joined #lisp 2021-03-11T09:41:10Z JokerAscensionEx joined #lisp 2021-03-11T09:42:00Z Guest12106 quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-03-11T09:44:45Z long4mud quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-11T09:48:10Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2021-03-11T10:05:26Z voidlily quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-11T10:09:52Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-11T10:11:57Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-11T10:18:24Z voidlily joined #lisp 2021-03-11T10:18:49Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-11T10:19:57Z sz0 joined #lisp 2021-03-11T10:22:32Z sz0 quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2021-03-11T10:23:37Z sz0 joined #lisp 2021-03-11T10:26:13Z sz0 quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2021-03-11T10:27:19Z sz0 joined #lisp 2021-03-11T10:29:54Z sz0 quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2021-03-11T10:30:59Z sz0 joined #lisp 2021-03-11T10:31:39Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-11T10:31:41Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-11T10:33:35Z sz0 quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2021-03-11T10:34:40Z sz0 joined #lisp 2021-03-11T10:40:18Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-03-11T10:45:36Z zupss quit 2021-03-11T10:51:18Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-11T10:51:28Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-11T10:53:08Z supercoven_ joined #lisp 2021-03-11T10:53:08Z supercoven_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2021-03-11T10:53:51Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-11T10:54:38Z supercoven_ joined #lisp 2021-03-11T10:55:53Z supercoven quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-11T11:00:06Z vegansbane6963 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-03-11T11:16:48Z pacon_ is now known as pacon 2021-03-11T11:22:19Z repair-true[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-11T11:24:21Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-11T11:29:05Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-03-11T11:30:44Z eschulte joined #lisp 2021-03-11T11:34:35Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-11T11:43:05Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2021-03-11T11:46:45Z attila_lendvai_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-11T11:48:45Z eschulte quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2021-03-11T11:51:51Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-03-11T12:01:29Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-03-11T12:01:49Z kevingal_ joined #lisp 2021-03-11T12:10:45Z frost-lab35 joined #lisp 2021-03-11T12:11:37Z phoe: Guest19918: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/tree/master/projects/phoe-toolbox 2021-03-11T12:11:46Z phoe: replace phoe-toolbox for the system name that you want 2021-03-11T12:11:53Z phoe: that's where ql is pulling a given system from. 2021-03-11T12:13:36Z frost-lab quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-11T12:14:45Z phoe: oh wait 2021-03-11T12:14:56Z phoe: Guest12106 is no longer here, I pinged the wrong person 2021-03-11T12:14:57Z phoe: woop 2021-03-11T12:17:42Z Xach_ is now known as Xach 2021-03-11T12:19:21Z eschulte joined #lisp 2021-03-11T12:23:31Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-11T12:25:17Z repair-true[m] left #lisp 2021-03-11T12:32:59Z eschulte quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-11T12:33:05Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-11T12:41:42Z heisig joined #lisp 2021-03-11T12:42:47Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-11T12:50:20Z kslt1 joined #lisp 2021-03-11T12:59:18Z gitgood joined #lisp 2021-03-11T13:02:05Z GZJ0X_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T13:02:27Z GZJ0X_ joined #lisp 2021-03-11T13:02:52Z samebchase-7 joined #lisp 2021-03-11T13:02:59Z luis16 joined #lisp 2021-03-11T13:03:13Z bkst_ joined #lisp 2021-03-11T13:03:40Z tmf_ joined #lisp 2021-03-11T13:03:52Z frost-lab35 quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-11T13:04:32Z eschulte joined #lisp 2021-03-11T13:04:50Z mtd_ joined #lisp 2021-03-11T13:05:24Z crypto_ joined #lisp 2021-03-11T13:05:28Z orivej_ joined #lisp 2021-03-11T13:05:33Z dvdmuckle_ joined #lisp 2021-03-11T13:05:36Z malm quit (Killed (verne.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))) 2021-03-11T13:05:38Z malm joined #lisp 2021-03-11T13:06:01Z hvxgr_ joined #lisp 2021-03-11T13:06:07Z HDurer_ joined #lisp 2021-03-11T13:06:12Z thijso joined #lisp 2021-03-11T13:06:17Z mtd___ joined #lisp 2021-03-11T13:06:18Z nydel1 joined #lisp 2021-03-11T13:06:24Z aap_ joined #lisp 2021-03-11T13:06:38Z SAL9000_ joined #lisp 2021-03-11T13:06:49Z Trieste joined #lisp 2021-03-11T13:06:59Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-11T13:07:08Z Ankhers_ joined #lisp 2021-03-11T13:07:08Z zymurgy1 joined #lisp 2021-03-11T13:07:12Z matthewcroughan_ joined #lisp 2021-03-11T13:07:14Z ferada_ joined #lisp 2021-03-11T13:07:17Z Kabriel_ joined #lisp 2021-03-11T13:07:34Z mrchampion_ joined #lisp 2021-03-11T13:07:35Z tmf quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-11T13:07:35Z brandonz quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-11T13:07:35Z zymurgy quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-11T13:07:35Z z0d quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-11T13:07:36Z datajerk_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-11T13:07:36Z loli quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-11T13:07:36Z samebchase- quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-11T13:07:36Z snits quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-11T13:07:36Z Ankhers quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-11T13:07:36Z mtd__ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-11T13:07:36Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-11T13:07:36Z rigidus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-11T13:07:36Z save-lisp-or-die quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-11T13:07:36Z hvxgr__ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-11T13:07:37Z Trieste_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-11T13:07:37Z Ekho quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-11T13:07:37Z SAL9000 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-11T13:07:37Z getha quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-11T13:07:37Z daniel1302 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-11T13:07:37Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-11T13:07:37Z mrchampion quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-11T13:07:37Z dvdmuckle quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-11T13:07:37Z luis quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-11T13:07:37Z nydel quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-11T13:07:37Z mtd quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-11T13:07:38Z jfb4 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-11T13:07:38Z matthewcroughan quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-11T13:07:38Z bkst quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-11T13:07:38Z Kabriel quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-11T13:07:38Z brass quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-11T13:07:38Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-11T13:07:38Z gensym quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-11T13:07:38Z ferada quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-11T13:07:38Z daniel1302 joined #lisp 2021-03-11T13:07:38Z datajerk joined #lisp 2021-03-11T13:07:38Z rigidus joined #lisp 2021-03-11T13:07:38Z gensym joined #lisp 2021-03-11T13:07:38Z loli joined #lisp 2021-03-11T13:07:39Z jfb4_ joined #lisp 2021-03-11T13:07:39Z dvdmuckle_ is now known as dvdmuckle 2021-03-11T13:07:41Z luis16 is now known as luis 2021-03-11T13:07:43Z Ankhers_ is now known as Ankhers 2021-03-11T13:07:57Z crypto_ is now known as z0d 2021-03-11T13:09:27Z save-lisp-or-die joined #lisp 2021-03-11T13:09:36Z Trieste quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2021-03-11T13:10:00Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-11T13:10:12Z brass joined #lisp 2021-03-11T13:11:03Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-11T13:11:04Z snits joined #lisp 2021-03-11T13:11:10Z brandonz joined #lisp 2021-03-11T13:11:49Z Trieste joined #lisp 2021-03-11T13:12:14Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-11T13:13:21Z Ekho joined #lisp 2021-03-11T13:13:23Z manuel79 joined #lisp 2021-03-11T13:13:38Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-03-11T13:14:26Z manuel79 quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-11T13:15:00Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-11T13:17:09Z Trieste quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2021-03-11T13:17:50Z Trieste joined #lisp 2021-03-11T13:17:55Z Tordek_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-11T13:18:46Z xlei quit (Quit: ZNC - https://znc.in) 2021-03-11T13:23:02Z xlei joined #lisp 2021-03-11T13:23:52Z eschulte quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-11T13:25:39Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-03-11T13:25:47Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-03-11T13:28:12Z bmansurov quit (Quit: 👋) 2021-03-11T13:30:07Z aap_ is now known as aap 2021-03-11T13:31:43Z bmansurov joined #lisp 2021-03-11T13:31:50Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-11T13:35:37Z terpri quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-11T13:38:02Z texno quit (Changing host) 2021-03-11T13:38:02Z texno joined #lisp 2021-03-11T13:39:25Z curtosis joined #lisp 2021-03-11T13:39:26Z curtosis is now known as curtosis[away] 2021-03-11T13:40:52Z flip214_: just another symlink 2021-03-11T13:42:25Z xlei quit (Quit: ZNC - https://znc.in) 2021-03-11T13:42:42Z terpri joined #lisp 2021-03-11T13:43:34Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-11T13:44:10Z troydm joined #lisp 2021-03-11T13:47:38Z adlai left #lisp 2021-03-11T13:50:11Z xlei joined #lisp 2021-03-11T13:50:21Z toorevitimirp quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-11T13:56:16Z villanella quit (Quit: villanella) 2021-03-11T14:01:45Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-11T14:02:49Z caret joined #lisp 2021-03-11T14:03:12Z zupss joined #lisp 2021-03-11T14:04:20Z Tordek joined #lisp 2021-03-11T14:05:53Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-11T14:08:21Z GZJ0X_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T14:10:37Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-03-11T14:14:35Z curtosis[away] quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-11T14:21:02Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2021-03-11T14:23:48Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-11T14:23:57Z tiwEllien quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-11T14:24:37Z tiwEllien joined #lisp 2021-03-11T14:26:07Z montxero quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-11T14:26:21Z montxero joined #lisp 2021-03-11T14:28:21Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-03-11T14:30:53Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-11T14:33:23Z warweasle joined #lisp 2021-03-11T14:34:52Z CrazyPython joined #lisp 2021-03-11T14:37:01Z mfiano: Which generic function/qualifier do I want if I want to modify an instance that takes place after :default-initargs of the defclass are resolved? 2021-03-11T14:37:26Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-11T14:38:06Z Bike: if you want a modification to take place after, you mean? i can't parse this 2021-03-11T14:38:09Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-11T14:38:30Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-11T14:38:44Z mfiano: Yes, I want any slot values from :default-initargs to have been resolved before I do additional work in this method 2021-03-11T14:39:15Z CrazyPython quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-11T14:41:03Z Bike: the default initargs are just that, default initargs. they are added to the initargs to make-instance and so on. how they are "resolved" depends on what the initialization methods do with them. 2021-03-11T14:42:33Z orivej_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-11T14:42:50Z splittist: mfiano: clhs 7.1 has a nice overview 2021-03-11T14:43:17Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-11T14:44:41Z mfiano: Yes, I typically supply keyword arguments to make-instance, but in this case I would like the default method behavior for initargs, and then to post-process any slot values without supplying each of several initargs to this method 2021-03-11T14:45:00Z mfiano: Sorry if this does not parse well. 2021-03-11T14:45:11Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-03-11T14:46:10Z splittist: The very last moment to intervene using the standard mechanism is (I think) an :after method on INITIALIZE-INSTANCE. 2021-03-11T14:46:58Z splittist: If you have your own MAKE-FOO function as the way to make FOOs you can do what you like, of course. 2021-03-11T14:48:00Z Bike: mfiano: what i'm saying is that default-initargs can do anything depending on the initialization methods. you can have initialize-instance methods that take a keyword argument that doesn't correspond to a slot and do arbitrary things baesd on it. 2021-03-11T14:48:37Z Bike: mfiano: the normal slot initializations take place in the primary method on shared-initialize, so if you want to do things after that, you can use an :after method on that or initialize-instance. 2021-03-11T14:48:43Z Bike: or technically make-instance, but i don't recommend that 2021-03-11T14:48:52Z CrazyPython joined #lisp 2021-03-11T14:48:57Z mfiano: I know this and it is usually what I do. In this case I have z few dozen initargs, and was wondering if I can have the default instance-instance method behavior, as to not specify each keyword argument myself in a custom method, and then later, modify them further 2021-03-11T14:49:09Z mfiano: err initialize-instance 2021-03-11T14:49:55Z Bike: sure. you probably want an :after on shared-initialize or initialize-instance. 2021-03-11T14:51:09Z mfiano: That is indeed what I tried first, but slots are unbound. I'll restart my image and trace it further before asking for more help. Thank you 2021-03-11T14:52:45Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-11T14:53:27Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-11T14:57:01Z rgherdt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T14:58:04Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2021-03-11T14:58:15Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-03-11T15:00:38Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-11T15:00:58Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2021-03-11T15:02:28Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-11T15:02:39Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2021-03-11T15:03:04Z Josh_2: Good afternoon 2021-03-11T15:05:38Z CrazyPyt_ joined #lisp 2021-03-11T15:06:15Z CrazyPython quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-11T15:10:40Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-03-11T15:11:38Z pfdietz: Another approach is to not initialize the slot at object creation time, but write a method for slot-unbound that initializes it on the first access. 2021-03-11T15:15:39Z wsinatra quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-11T15:16:02Z zupss quit 2021-03-11T15:17:00Z supercoven_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-11T15:17:17Z supercoven joined #lisp 2021-03-11T15:19:13Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-11T15:20:40Z samebchase-7 is now known as samebchase- 2021-03-11T15:22:21Z Klopsch joined #lisp 2021-03-11T15:22:48Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-03-11T15:24:29Z warweasle quit (Quit: working.) 2021-03-11T15:25:02Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-11T15:29:56Z Klopsch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T15:30:40Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-03-11T15:48:24Z ggoes quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-11T15:49:09Z ggoes joined #lisp 2021-03-11T15:56:05Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone) 2021-03-11T16:00:12Z theothornhill[m] quit (Quit: Idle for 30+ days) 2021-03-11T16:06:05Z sjl joined #lisp 2021-03-11T16:06:16Z narimiran_ joined #lisp 2021-03-11T16:06:16Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-11T16:07:42Z cage_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T16:08:06Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-03-11T16:11:18Z zups joined #lisp 2021-03-11T16:11:44Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-11T16:12:04Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-11T16:12:11Z warweasle joined #lisp 2021-03-11T16:12:28Z madage quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T16:12:34Z waleee-cl joined #lisp 2021-03-11T16:12:42Z madage joined #lisp 2021-03-11T16:15:27Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-11T16:16:01Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-03-11T16:26:31Z kreyren quit (Changing host) 2021-03-11T16:26:31Z kreyren joined #lisp 2021-03-11T16:26:31Z kreyren quit (Changing host) 2021-03-11T16:26:31Z kreyren joined #lisp 2021-03-11T16:30:42Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-03-11T16:41:59Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-11T16:42:56Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-11T16:44:12Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-11T16:44:27Z Nilby quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T16:45:58Z zups quit 2021-03-11T16:48:29Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-03-11T16:51:16Z wsinatra quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-11T16:51:19Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-03-11T16:52:55Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-03-11T16:54:37Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T16:54:48Z kaiwulf joined #lisp 2021-03-11T16:56:04Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-11T16:56:46Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-11T17:00:27Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-11T17:01:56Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-11T17:02:30Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-03-11T17:04:06Z salvipeter[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-11T17:05:21Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-03-11T17:07:52Z pfdietz quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-11T17:08:19Z salvipeter[m] is now known as sunwukong 2021-03-11T17:08:26Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-11T17:08:38Z supercoven_ joined #lisp 2021-03-11T17:08:39Z supercoven_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2021-03-11T17:08:53Z supercoven_ joined #lisp 2021-03-11T17:08:54Z supercoven_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2021-03-11T17:09:08Z supercoven_ joined #lisp 2021-03-11T17:09:09Z supercoven_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2021-03-11T17:09:23Z supercoven_ joined #lisp 2021-03-11T17:09:24Z supercoven_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2021-03-11T17:09:42Z supercoven_ joined #lisp 2021-03-11T17:11:44Z supercoven quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-11T17:11:44Z supercoven_ quit (K-Lined) 2021-03-11T17:12:25Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-03-11T17:14:18Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-11T17:15:09Z jeosol quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-11T17:19:08Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2021-03-11T17:20:28Z rgherdt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T17:21:44Z SAL9000_ is now known as SAL9000 2021-03-11T17:21:53Z Feldman quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-11T17:22:54Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-11T17:24:09Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-11T17:26:50Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-03-11T17:32:52Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2021-03-11T17:34:39Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-11T17:35:47Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-11T17:36:41Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-11T17:38:44Z pfdietz quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-11T17:43:45Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2021-03-11T17:45:20Z galex-713_ joined #lisp 2021-03-11T17:45:25Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-11T17:50:46Z galex-713_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-11T17:50:56Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-11T17:53:32Z spal is now known as _8lurry 2021-03-11T17:53:40Z _8lurry is now known as spal 2021-03-11T18:00:31Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-11T18:02:21Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-11T18:05:36Z wsinatra quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-11T18:07:29Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-03-11T18:09:50Z pfdietz quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-11T18:10:39Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2021-03-11T18:10:52Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3)) 2021-03-11T18:11:26Z rpg joined #lisp 2021-03-11T18:14:52Z zdravko61 joined #lisp 2021-03-11T18:15:24Z zdravko61 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T18:15:55Z pfdietz quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-11T18:20:39Z travv0 joined #lisp 2021-03-11T18:24:12Z gitgoood joined #lisp 2021-03-11T18:24:50Z vsync quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-11T18:24:54Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2021-03-11T18:25:00Z pfdietz quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-11T18:26:10Z vsync joined #lisp 2021-03-11T18:26:30Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-11T18:27:07Z gitgood quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-11T18:30:53Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T18:30:57Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-11T18:31:29Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-11T18:31:59Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-03-11T18:54:59Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-11T18:59:39Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-11T19:00:44Z ggole quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-11T19:01:03Z sxmx quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T19:01:23Z sxmx joined #lisp 2021-03-11T19:02:26Z matryoshka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-11T19:03:11Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-11T19:03:33Z mathrick joined #lisp 2021-03-11T19:04:25Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-11T19:06:15Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-11T19:07:45Z hjudt quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-11T19:08:09Z andrei-n quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-11T19:09:13Z galex-713_ joined #lisp 2021-03-11T19:09:21Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-11T19:09:39Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-11T19:11:59Z texno quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-11T19:13:23Z galex-713_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-11T19:14:56Z matryoshka joined #lisp 2021-03-11T19:15:25Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T19:15:44Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-11T19:16:51Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-11T19:17:25Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2021-03-11T19:17:26Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-11T19:17:45Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-03-11T19:19:09Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-11T19:19:16Z madage joined #lisp 2021-03-11T19:20:41Z lowryder joined #lisp 2021-03-11T19:22:00Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-11T19:22:12Z Sauvin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-11T19:22:24Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-11T19:27:08Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-03-11T19:29:05Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-11T19:29:26Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-03-11T19:30:03Z recalloc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T19:30:33Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-11T19:30:55Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-11T19:31:09Z saturn2 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-11T19:37:37Z saturn2 joined #lisp 2021-03-11T19:42:33Z saturn2 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-11T19:43:00Z rpg joined #lisp 2021-03-11T19:44:08Z srandon111 joined #lisp 2021-03-11T19:53:07Z jeosol joined #lisp 2021-03-11T19:53:36Z kevingal_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T19:53:36Z kevingal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T19:53:55Z cage_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T19:54:19Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-03-11T19:56:38Z asdflkj joined #lisp 2021-03-11T19:57:54Z galex-713_ joined #lisp 2021-03-11T19:58:16Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-11T20:03:58Z saturn2 joined #lisp 2021-03-11T20:05:51Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-11T20:11:04Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-03-11T20:11:37Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-11T20:11:43Z galex-713_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-11T20:12:40Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T20:13:22Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-03-11T20:13:28Z asdflkj quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2021-03-11T20:16:34Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-11T20:18:32Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-03-11T20:19:09Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-11T20:19:28Z asdflkj joined #lisp 2021-03-11T20:23:35Z Fare joined #lisp 2021-03-11T20:23:38Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T20:23:53Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-11T20:25:45Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-11T20:27:34Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-11T20:27:47Z hhdave_ joined #lisp 2021-03-11T20:29:15Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T20:29:55Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-11T20:30:00Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-11T20:31:05Z wsinatra quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-11T20:33:54Z galex-713 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-11T20:33:55Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-11T20:34:53Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-11T20:35:06Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-11T20:35:23Z gitgoood quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-11T20:35:23Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-11T20:37:14Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-11T20:37:39Z narimiran_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-11T20:37:51Z Jachy joined #lisp 2021-03-11T20:47:49Z peasynt joined #lisp 2021-03-11T20:58:15Z APic quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-11T21:00:04Z APic joined #lisp 2021-03-11T21:13:34Z warweasle quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 26.1) 2021-03-11T21:19:23Z caret quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-11T21:19:47Z gitgood joined #lisp 2021-03-11T21:22:27Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-11T21:27:01Z montxero quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-11T21:31:55Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-11T21:32:05Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-11T21:34:14Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-11T21:39:07Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-11T21:39:43Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-11T21:41:03Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-11T21:45:27Z jeosol quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-11T21:46:09Z Fare joined #lisp 2021-03-11T21:50:59Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-11T21:55:46Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2021-03-11T21:59:16Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-11T22:00:10Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-11T22:01:09Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-11T22:05:13Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2021-03-11T22:05:28Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-11T22:06:23Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-11T22:12:30Z ficl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-11T22:15:03Z rpg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-11T22:21:27Z gitgood quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-11T22:22:45Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-11T22:26:07Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2021-03-11T22:32:24Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-11T22:35:37Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-11T22:39:06Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2021-03-11T22:53:48Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-11T22:55:54Z jurov_ joined #lisp 2021-03-11T22:57:04Z jurov quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-11T23:05:57Z jurov_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-11T23:07:06Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-11T23:07:10Z srandon111 quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-11T23:09:10Z pve quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-11T23:12:37Z jurov joined #lisp 2021-03-11T23:16:02Z edgar-rft is now known as rubydot 2021-03-11T23:17:45Z rubydot is now known as edgar-rft 2021-03-11T23:17:55Z jurov_ joined #lisp 2021-03-11T23:19:38Z jurov quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-11T23:22:46Z jurov_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-11T23:23:40Z aindilis joined #lisp 2021-03-11T23:26:47Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-11T23:27:20Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-11T23:28:10Z madage joined #lisp 2021-03-11T23:29:13Z jurov joined #lisp 2021-03-11T23:30:08Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2021-03-11T23:34:03Z jurov quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-11T23:34:57Z kslt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T23:36:28Z kslt1 joined #lisp 2021-03-11T23:36:48Z White_Flame: I'm getting an environment under osx going; is there a way to get ctrl-arrows to work there, or do people just rebind it to other keystrokes? 2021-03-11T23:36:54Z White_Flame: under paredit 2021-03-11T23:38:01Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-11T23:38:14Z Fare quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T23:48:06Z terpri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T23:50:41Z terpri joined #lisp 2021-03-11T23:56:27Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-12T00:01:02Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-03-12T00:03:15Z jurov joined #lisp 2021-03-12T00:10:48Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-12T00:19:54Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-03-12T00:21:22Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-12T00:21:29Z skapate joined #lisp 2021-03-12T00:22:40Z skapate quit (Excess Flood) 2021-03-12T00:23:04Z Xach: White_Flame: it's trapped by the OS usually? 2021-03-12T00:23:25Z skapate joined #lisp 2021-03-12T00:24:07Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-12T00:25:39Z White_Flame: Xach: yeah, I changed the OS shortcuts to something else, wondering what most people do with that 2021-03-12T00:30:09Z Xach: White_Flame: that's what i do. 2021-03-12T00:30:47Z White_Flame: wrangling with a weird issue that ql:quickload works at the repl, but .asd :depends-on dependencies just have asdf scream with system unknown 2021-03-12T00:31:07Z White_Flame: for online systems to download 2021-03-12T00:32:27Z White_Flame: works on linux, works on x86 mac, breaks on m1 mac. But we have loader stuff before asdf that's generic and might be breaking something? 2021-03-12T00:32:42Z White_Flame: erm, before the quicklisp load 2021-03-12T00:34:02Z Oladon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-12T00:34:59Z Xach: not defsystem-depends-on? 2021-03-12T00:35:31Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-03-12T00:35:47Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-12T00:37:20Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-12T00:39:37Z White_Flame: just plain :depends-on ("trivial-garbage") or whatever happens to be the first non-locally installed system 2021-03-12T00:40:09Z mrchampion_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-12T00:40:40Z Xach: weird 2021-03-12T00:42:12Z White_Flame: Component "trivial-garbage" not found, required by # 2021-03-12T00:42:55Z White_Flame: yeah, also with sbcl m1 support being very new, that's also a niggling suspicion 2021-03-12T00:43:55Z mrchampion joined #lisp 2021-03-12T00:45:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: White_Flame: emacs has particular settings to control this, I think 2021-03-12T00:45:38Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-12T00:45:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, you have to disable the "switch spaces" shortcut in system preferences 2021-03-12T00:46:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: Anyways, I still mostly use x86_64 sbcl via Rosetta 2 2021-03-12T00:46:06Z White_Flame: right, that's what I did. remapped it to cmd-arrows 2021-03-12T00:46:28Z White_Flame: oh, I thought that x64 sbcl was fairly unstable under rosetta 2021-03-12T00:47:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: It works just fine for me 2021-03-12T00:47:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ever since 11.1 or so 2021-03-12T00:47:57Z grobe0ba quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-12T00:48:08Z grobe0ba joined #lisp 2021-03-12T00:48:16Z White_Flame: huh, I'll try it and see if there's a difference in this weirdness 2021-03-12T00:49:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: If you don't mind using emacs 27, the "railwaycat" macport is a lot better, in a bunch of ways 2021-03-12T00:50:02Z White_Flame: I mostly want this as a build box, so the emacs differences aren't that concerning to me 2021-03-12T00:50:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ok 2021-03-12T00:51:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: If any maintainers of Plexippus XPath are around, I just found a somewhat surprising bug: https://github.com/sharplispers/xpath/issues/12 2021-03-12T00:52:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: I can work around it, but it took me like half an hour to figure out what's happening 2021-03-12T01:06:24Z mogglehud joined #lisp 2021-03-12T01:11:12Z kslt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-12T01:11:21Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-12T01:11:33Z White_Flame: fiddlerwoaroof: hmm, did you build your x86 version yourself? the sbcl download page for amd64 macos is ye olde 1.2.11, and I don't have an x86 mac available to me 2021-03-12T01:14:38Z mogglehud quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-12T01:18:58Z Ronnin joined #lisp 2021-03-12T01:22:43Z Bike: ::notify pfdietz you have something to randomly generate lisp code for testing, right? is that available anywhere? i want to do that for cleavir 2021-03-12T01:22:43Z Colleen: Bike: Got it. I'll let pfdietz know as soon as possible. 2021-03-12T01:28:38Z peasynt quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-12T01:35:20Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-03-12T01:39:27Z gabiruh_ quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-12T01:45:27Z gabiruh joined #lisp 2021-03-12T02:00:38Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-12T02:07:38Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-12T02:07:43Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-12T02:09:29Z jeosol joined #lisp 2021-03-12T02:17:03Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2021-03-12T02:20:08Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2021-03-12T02:21:56Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-12T02:22:49Z Ronnin quit (Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )) 2021-03-12T02:26:05Z akoana joined #lisp 2021-03-12T02:26:09Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-12T02:26:15Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-12T02:36:19Z recalloc joined #lisp 2021-03-12T02:43:02Z _jrjsmrtn joined #lisp 2021-03-12T02:43:22Z rickygee joined #lisp 2021-03-12T02:44:06Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-12T02:46:35Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2021-03-12T02:47:13Z long4mud joined #lisp 2021-03-12T02:48:10Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-12T02:48:23Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-12T02:48:23Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2021-03-12T02:59:57Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-12T03:05:27Z CrazyPyt_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-12T03:06:27Z _whitelogger quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-12T03:11:09Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2021-03-12T03:11:43Z rickygee quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-12T03:13:24Z semz joined #lisp 2021-03-12T03:14:32Z texno joined #lisp 2021-03-12T03:17:03Z Fare joined #lisp 2021-03-12T03:22:10Z texno quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-12T03:22:22Z texno joined #lisp 2021-03-12T03:39:09Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-12T03:40:18Z White_Flame: Xach: btw, the problem ended up being that we were just running from master branch, which didn't have the update from asdf->ql loading. So no ql or m1 issues, just lots of wasted time here ;) 2021-03-12T03:43:51Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-03-12T03:47:06Z JokerAscensionEx quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-12T04:01:35Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2021-03-12T04:01:42Z Josh_2: Good morning beach 2021-03-12T04:03:50Z Oladon: Morning, beach! 2021-03-12T04:04:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: White_Flame: I got it from nix 2021-03-12T04:05:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, yeah, I always build things myself 2021-03-12T04:08:03Z veera joined #lisp 2021-03-12T04:08:21Z veera: Hello guys 2021-03-12T04:08:22Z cchristiansen joined #lisp 2021-03-12T04:08:36Z veera left #lisp 2021-03-12T04:10:50Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-12T04:16:47Z JokerAscensionEx joined #lisp 2021-03-12T04:20:16Z kaiwulf quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-12T04:21:54Z texno quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-12T04:23:48Z texno joined #lisp 2021-03-12T04:26:39Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-12T04:26:57Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-12T04:29:49Z curtosis[away] joined #lisp 2021-03-12T04:30:09Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-12T04:33:45Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-12T04:34:59Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-12T04:36:20Z akoana left #lisp 2021-03-12T04:38:02Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-03-12T04:50:56Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-12T04:52:12Z ex_nihilo joined #lisp 2021-03-12T04:56:27Z ey[m]: how do I define char as c in 2021-03-12T04:56:27Z ey[m]: (loop for c across str 2021-03-12T04:56:27Z ey[m]: with char = c ....) 2021-03-12T04:56:45Z ey[m]: char starts with the value nil for some reason 2021-03-12T04:57:22Z beach: Try replacing WITH by FOR. WITH is executed only once at the beginning of the loop. 2021-03-12T04:57:45Z ey[m]: oh ok 2021-03-12T04:58:27Z ey[m]: wait, doesn't FOR make char = c in all the loops ? 2021-03-12T04:58:38Z ey[m]: I just wanted char to equal c at the beginning 2021-03-12T04:58:49Z ey[m]: not in every loop 2021-03-12T04:58:59Z beach: Oh, so you want char to be only the first character in the string? 2021-03-12T04:59:04Z ey[m]: yeah 2021-03-12T04:59:41Z ey[m]: doing it with, makes c = NIL 2021-03-12T04:59:48Z ey[m]: * char = NIL 2021-03-12T05:00:06Z beach: Why don't you just set char to the first element of the string? 2021-03-12T05:00:49Z beach: I would just do (loop with char = (char str 0) for c across str...) 2021-03-12T05:01:05Z ey[m]: I did try that, but for some reason it looks like c is equal to NIL at the beginning 2021-03-12T05:01:42Z beach: Yes, I am not surprised. There is probably a (let ((c nil)) ... ) in the expansion of LOOP. 2021-03-12T05:02:00Z ey[m]: hmm ok 2021-03-12T05:02:43Z beach: But what I suggested should work, unless the string is empty of course. 2021-03-12T05:04:03Z curtosis[away] quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-12T05:06:44Z aartaka_d quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-12T05:07:42Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-12T05:09:35Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-03-12T05:10:17Z beach: ey[m]: So did it work/ 2021-03-12T05:10:20Z beach: ? 2021-03-12T05:19:06Z ey[m]: yeah it did 2021-03-12T05:19:18Z ey[m]: I just had to change another variable I had defined 2021-03-12T05:21:01Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-12T05:32:48Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2021-03-12T05:35:42Z texno quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-12T05:41:47Z marusich joined #lisp 2021-03-12T05:42:11Z a73 joined #lisp 2021-03-12T05:43:24Z a73 quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-12T05:44:28Z JokerAscensionEx quit (Quit: EXIT) 2021-03-12T05:52:32Z galex-713 quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2021-03-12T05:54:17Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-12T05:55:32Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-12T05:58:02Z Bike quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-12T05:58:42Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-12T06:02:15Z skapate quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-12T06:10:36Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-03-12T06:15:43Z narimiran_ joined #lisp 2021-03-12T06:22:34Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-12T06:27:31Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-12T06:30:12Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-12T06:31:14Z cchristiansen quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-12T06:34:38Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-12T06:43:28Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2021-03-12T06:44:53Z hjudt joined #lisp 2021-03-12T06:46:30Z sauvin joined #lisp 2021-03-12T06:47:56Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-03-12T06:52:07Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-12T06:55:29Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-12T06:57:04Z johannes joined #lisp 2021-03-12T06:57:20Z johannes is now known as kenran 2021-03-12T06:57:49Z kenran quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-12T06:58:13Z johannes joined #lisp 2021-03-12T07:01:44Z zymurgy1 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2021-03-12T07:01:59Z zymurgy joined #lisp 2021-03-12T07:15:27Z surabax joined #lisp 2021-03-12T07:18:08Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-03-12T07:23:25Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-12T07:23:25Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2021-03-12T07:23:25Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-12T07:24:30Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-12T07:26:29Z greaser|q quit (Changing host) 2021-03-12T07:26:29Z greaser|q joined #lisp 2021-03-12T07:26:32Z greaser|q is now known as GreaseMonkey 2021-03-12T07:31:06Z johannes quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-12T07:34:36Z galex-713_ joined #lisp 2021-03-12T07:35:05Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-12T07:36:57Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2021-03-12T07:38:12Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-12T07:38:18Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-12T07:44:03Z walex quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-12T07:44:32Z walex joined #lisp 2021-03-12T07:47:42Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-12T07:49:02Z wigust- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-12T07:49:30Z wigust joined #lisp 2021-03-12T07:51:52Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-12T07:52:39Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2021-03-12T07:54:10Z ldbeth quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-12T07:54:28Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-12T07:58:14Z perrier-jouet quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-12T08:00:23Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-12T08:00:46Z galex-713_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-12T08:03:37Z mathrick_ joined #lisp 2021-03-12T08:04:03Z perrier-jouet joined #lisp 2021-03-12T08:05:26Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-12T08:07:09Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-12T08:09:58Z ficl joined #lisp 2021-03-12T08:11:32Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-12T08:12:22Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-03-12T08:18:36Z pve joined #lisp 2021-03-12T08:19:08Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-12T08:26:22Z jeosol quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-12T08:33:22Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-03-12T08:34:17Z gitgood joined #lisp 2021-03-12T08:36:47Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-12T08:40:45Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-12T08:40:47Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-12T08:52:47Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-12T08:53:43Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-12T08:55:19Z aggin joined #lisp 2021-03-12T08:58:43Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-03-12T08:59:47Z aggin: in CLOS, if :initarg is specified, in which method should I define my code if I want to do something after the slot's are set to their respective initargs ? 2021-03-12T09:00:14Z aggin: :after ? 2021-03-12T09:01:59Z beach: Typically in an :AFTER method on INITIALIZE-INSTANCE. 2021-03-12T09:02:40Z aggin: when does the :around method execute? 2021-03-12T09:03:17Z beach: Before any other methods, and it requires a call to CALL-NEXT-METHOD to call the others. 2021-03-12T09:03:35Z aggin: oh ok 2021-03-12T09:04:06Z flip214_ is now known as flip214 2021-03-12T09:04:34Z aggin: final question: is it possible to define 2 :after methods ? 2021-03-12T09:04:59Z beach: Only if they have different specializers. 2021-03-12T09:05:04Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-12T09:05:26Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-12T09:06:08Z beach: Like if you have LISP-PROGRAMMER being a subclass of PERSON, you can have two :AFTER methods, each specializing in one of the two. 2021-03-12T09:06:30Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-12T09:06:33Z beach: The most specific one will then be executed last. 2021-03-12T09:06:41Z aggin: oh, so both execute 2021-03-12T09:06:58Z beach: All applicable :AFTER methods execute, yes. 2021-03-12T09:06:58Z aggin: I thought the :after method of the subclass overrides the superclass's 2021-03-12T09:07:54Z aggin: what if I wanted to do something that is the same in both methods that runs after the :after methods ? 2021-03-12T09:07:56Z beach: clhs 7.6.6.2 2021-03-12T09:07:57Z specbot: Standard Method Combination: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/07_ffb.htm 2021-03-12T09:08:20Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-03-12T09:09:39Z beach: You mean in :AFTER method A: (progn (do-stuff-a) (do-common-stuff)) and in B: (progn (do-stuff-b) (do-common-stuff))? 2021-03-12T09:09:49Z aggin: yeah 2021-03-12T09:10:03Z karlosz quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-12T09:10:06Z beach: Call a function called DO-COMMON-STUFF from both methods. 2021-03-12T09:10:20Z aggin: ok :) 2021-03-12T09:11:19Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-12T09:12:00Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-12T09:12:44Z gitgood quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-12T09:12:47Z aggin quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-12T09:12:48Z gitgoood joined #lisp 2021-03-12T09:17:10Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-12T09:20:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-12T09:20:28Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-12T09:20:39Z holycow joined #lisp 2021-03-12T09:22:04Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-12T09:24:15Z holycow quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-12T09:25:12Z ldbeth quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-12T09:25:28Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-12T09:30:43Z attila_lendvai_ joined #lisp 2021-03-12T09:36:53Z andrei-n joined #lisp 2021-03-12T09:39:32Z ldb joined #lisp 2021-03-12T09:39:37Z ldb: good afternoon 2021-03-12T09:42:42Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-12T09:42:52Z beach: Hello ldb. 2021-03-12T09:45:21Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-03-12T09:46:28Z gitgoood is now known as gitgood 2021-03-12T09:46:43Z ldb quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-12T09:47:00Z ldb`` joined #lisp 2021-03-12T09:55:48Z ldb`` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-12T09:56:07Z ldb```` joined #lisp 2021-03-12T10:00:31Z gitgood quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-12T10:03:49Z ldb```` quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-12T10:07:28Z heisig joined #lisp 2021-03-12T10:17:02Z kslt1 joined #lisp 2021-03-12T10:19:22Z Stanley00 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-12T10:24:18Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2021-03-12T10:24:50Z gitgood joined #lisp 2021-03-12T10:39:56Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-03-12T10:40:10Z kevingal_ joined #lisp 2021-03-12T10:44:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-12T10:44:26Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-12T10:49:47Z Klopsch joined #lisp 2021-03-12T10:54:00Z kslt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-12T10:56:40Z kslt1 joined #lisp 2021-03-12T10:56:51Z Stanley00 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-12T10:57:28Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2021-03-12T11:00:06Z vegansbane6963 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-03-12T11:02:28Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-12T11:10:40Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-12T11:13:07Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-12T11:14:04Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-03-12T11:28:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-12T11:28:27Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-12T11:28:50Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-03-12T11:34:15Z rdd joined #lisp 2021-03-12T11:34:36Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-12T11:36:18Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-12T11:44:48Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2021-03-12T11:49:13Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-12T11:58:57Z marusich quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-12T12:00:18Z marusich joined #lisp 2021-03-12T12:02:01Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-12T12:02:15Z jmercouris: hello everyone :-) 2021-03-12T12:03:41Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-12T12:04:41Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-03-12T12:07:08Z gitgoood joined #lisp 2021-03-12T12:08:33Z sm2n_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-12T12:09:54Z gitgood quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-12T12:15:00Z jonatack quit (Quit: jonatack) 2021-03-12T12:17:23Z gitgoood quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-12T12:19:54Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-12T12:21:05Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-03-12T12:28:26Z Tordek quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-12T12:34:42Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-12T12:34:42Z aartaka_d quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-12T12:35:27Z sm2n joined #lisp 2021-03-12T12:36:22Z jonatack quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-12T12:40:43Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-12T12:41:43Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-12T12:42:02Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-12T12:43:54Z draxoula joined #lisp 2021-03-12T12:46:26Z tinhatcat joined #lisp 2021-03-12T12:46:43Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-12T12:50:38Z tinhatcat quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-12T12:50:57Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-12T12:52:04Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-12T12:53:46Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-12T12:55:05Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-03-12T12:56:18Z mogglehud joined #lisp 2021-03-12T13:02:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-12T13:02:26Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-12T13:07:55Z ey[m] is now known as AK[m] 2021-03-12T13:09:18Z flazh quit (Quit: flazh) 2021-03-12T13:13:26Z flazh joined #lisp 2021-03-12T13:14:54Z gxt quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-12T13:17:32Z galex-713_ joined #lisp 2021-03-12T13:17:43Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-12T13:19:43Z long4mud quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-12T13:23:33Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-12T13:23:55Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-12T13:24:04Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-12T13:24:21Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-12T13:24:48Z Tordek joined #lisp 2021-03-12T13:26:11Z phoe: hey 2021-03-12T13:30:33Z mogglehud quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-12T13:30:43Z beach: Hello jmercouris. Hello phoe. 2021-03-12T13:30:52Z CrazyPython joined #lisp 2021-03-12T13:35:06Z galex-713_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-12T13:37:07Z andrei-n quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-12T13:38:40Z warweasle joined #lisp 2021-03-12T13:39:25Z Sheilong joined #lisp 2021-03-12T13:42:43Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-12T13:44:57Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-12T13:45:07Z edgar-rft is now known as world 2021-03-12T13:45:13Z world: hello! 2021-03-12T13:45:23Z world is now known as edgar-rft 2021-03-12T13:45:30Z edgar-rft: hello world! 2021-03-12T13:46:56Z beach: Very funny! 2021-03-12T13:47:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-12T13:47:28Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-12T13:47:57Z edgar-rft: Yes, I'm still laughing. 2021-03-12T13:48:19Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-12T13:49:56Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2021-03-12T13:51:33Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-12T13:54:21Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-12T13:54:57Z ex_nihilo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-12T13:56:53Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-12T14:02:45Z caret joined #lisp 2021-03-12T14:02:51Z Josh_2: Good afternoon 2021-03-12T14:05:38Z thecoffemaker_ quit (Quit: So long and thanks for all the fish!) 2021-03-12T14:06:07Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-12T14:06:29Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-12T14:06:45Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-12T14:12:07Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-12T14:12:28Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-12T14:12:52Z thecoffemaker joined #lisp 2021-03-12T14:13:06Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-12T14:13:29Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-12T14:14:53Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-12T14:15:07Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-12T14:15:32Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-12T14:16:06Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-12T14:16:28Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-12T14:17:11Z hjudt quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-12T14:17:11Z dbs joined #lisp 2021-03-12T14:18:06Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-12T14:18:31Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-12T14:19:07Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-12T14:22:44Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2021-03-12T14:23:12Z dbs quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-12T14:23:17Z thecoffemaker quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-12T14:23:50Z sauvin quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-12T14:24:37Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-12T14:24:52Z thecoffemaker joined #lisp 2021-03-12T14:25:29Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-12T14:25:46Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-12T14:27:08Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-12T14:37:20Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-03-12T14:38:47Z tiwEllien quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-12T14:44:40Z AK[m] left #lisp 2021-03-12T14:46:56Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-12T14:49:45Z epony quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-12T14:54:49Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2021-03-12T14:58:08Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-03-12T14:59:32Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-12T15:01:29Z Josh_2: Does anyone have much experience with jonathan the JSON parser/generator? 2021-03-12T15:01:54Z Gnuxie[m]: What's the problem? 2021-03-12T15:01:59Z Josh_2: I'm trying to generate JSON that looks like "device_keys": {"@alice:example.com": []} 2021-03-12T15:03:20Z Josh_2: where I can have many @alice.. etc but I keep trying and jojo keeps outputting like "{"device_keys":"[{\"@timestealer:scyldings.com\":[]} .. adding the [] 2021-03-12T15:03:37Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-12T15:03:46Z Gnuxie[m]: Ok, there's some dynamic variables for cobtrolling nil if that's the problem trying to get [] 2021-03-12T15:04:13Z Josh_2: Nah I want the [] after the ids, but I don't want all of the ids wrapped in the [] 2021-03-12T15:04:41Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-12T15:09:53Z Gnuxie[m]: You are creating keys dynamically? 2021-03-12T15:10:35Z Gnuxie[m]: There's with-json-object anf associated macrolets foe that 2021-03-12T15:10:45Z Gnuxie[m]: Iirc 2021-03-12T15:11:01Z Josh_2: I already have the list of keys 2021-03-12T15:11:28Z Josh_2: It's annoying because the format required is like each key is a slot in a class... 2021-03-12T15:15:59Z Gnuxie[m]: Not sure what you mean 2021-03-12T15:16:15Z Gnuxie[m]: Are you mapping this format to CLOS? 2021-03-12T15:17:34Z Josh_2: yes, but in order to have an object like {name: {o1}, {o2}, {o3}} which is basically the format I need, jojo expects each of o1 o2 to be a slot in a class, but I have a list of them instead, this is why they keep ending up like {name: [{o1},{02}.. ]} etc 2021-03-12T15:18:36Z Klopsch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-12T15:20:50Z luni left #lisp 2021-03-12T15:20:55Z Gnuxie[m]: I would just keep the keys in a list/table in a slot and encapsulate access to them, then account for tjat with your to-json method 2021-03-12T15:21:22Z Josh_2: well I've done the first part, and I'm trying the second, hence the question 2021-03-12T15:22:41Z Gnuxie[m]: Ok, I mean, i'm on a phone rn and no computer but I donmt see anything that woukd stop you doing this 2021-03-12T15:23:07Z Gnuxie[m]: Loop over each entry and do json-key + json-value 2021-03-12T15:23:11Z Josh_2: ah 2021-03-12T15:23:13Z Josh_2: okay 2021-03-12T15:25:42Z tiwEllien joined #lisp 2021-03-12T15:27:54Z Josh_2: Okay I figured it out, thanks for the help Gnuxie[m] 2021-03-12T15:28:27Z curtosis[away] joined #lisp 2021-03-12T15:32:18Z Gnuxie[m]: np, good luck :) 2021-03-12T15:36:50Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-03-12T15:43:44Z kslt1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-12T15:47:26Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-12T15:48:55Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-12T15:53:19Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-12T15:56:41Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-03-12T15:57:51Z sjl joined #lisp 2021-03-12T15:59:37Z curtosis[away] quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-12T16:02:26Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-12T16:03:10Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2021-03-12T16:07:32Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-12T16:09:24Z scymtym joined #lisp 2021-03-12T16:10:04Z galex-713_ joined #lisp 2021-03-12T16:10:37Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-12T16:10:46Z sjl quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3-dev) 2021-03-12T16:12:43Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2021-03-12T16:16:25Z galex-713_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-12T16:17:08Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-12T16:17:08Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-12T16:18:03Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-12T16:20:04Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-12T16:23:23Z Tordek quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-12T16:25:23Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-12T16:26:57Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-12T16:37:34Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-12T16:39:59Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-03-12T16:40:58Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-03-12T16:42:45Z galex-713 quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2021-03-12T16:43:19Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3)) 2021-03-12T16:44:55Z curtosis[away] joined #lisp 2021-03-12T16:46:24Z jeosol joined #lisp 2021-03-12T16:48:15Z epony joined #lisp 2021-03-12T16:48:30Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-12T16:53:46Z terpri joined #lisp 2021-03-12T17:01:14Z curtosis[away] quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-12T17:01:44Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-12T17:05:37Z mogglehud joined #lisp 2021-03-12T17:08:47Z mogglehud quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-12T17:10:08Z Tordek joined #lisp 2021-03-12T17:29:08Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-12T17:50:43Z Demosthe1ex joined #lisp 2021-03-12T17:53:57Z Demosthenex quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-12T18:00:44Z varjagg joined #lisp 2021-03-12T18:01:35Z varjagg is now known as varjag 2021-03-12T18:05:12Z caret quit (Quit: Bye Felicia) 2021-03-12T18:06:38Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-12T18:11:03Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-12T18:11:54Z draxoula quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-03-12T18:30:15Z gitgood joined #lisp 2021-03-12T18:32:08Z waleee-cl joined #lisp 2021-03-12T18:36:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: Josh_2: I gave up on Jonathan, for some reason: I mostly use Yason these days 2021-03-12T18:36:46Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-12T18:37:13Z gitgoood joined #lisp 2021-03-12T18:38:34Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2021-03-12T18:39:56Z gitgood quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-12T18:43:45Z warweasle quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 26.1) 2021-03-12T18:43:53Z vutral_ joined #lisp 2021-03-12T18:53:21Z mh__ joined #lisp 2021-03-12T18:56:55Z Jachy quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-03-12T18:58:55Z mh__ is now known as brad22 2021-03-12T19:04:50Z Khisanth quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-12T19:12:36Z zupss joined #lisp 2021-03-12T19:12:39Z zupss quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-12T19:14:51Z zupss joined #lisp 2021-03-12T19:15:36Z zupss quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-12T19:20:54Z zupss joined #lisp 2021-03-12T19:22:06Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2021-03-12T19:25:22Z zupss quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-12T19:26:41Z zupss joined #lisp 2021-03-12T19:27:09Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-12T19:38:26Z CL-ASHOK joined #lisp 2021-03-12T19:41:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: If I have a loop like (loop for line = (get-line s) while (peek-char nil s) collect line), is there a good way to get the last line? 2021-03-12T19:41:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: e.g. on a single-line input, you'll just get nil, because WHILE triggers before the collect 2021-03-12T19:41:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs loop 2021-03-12T19:41:55Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_loop.htm 2021-03-12T19:42:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: hmm, maybe I can put the termination test after the collect? I'm never quite sure whether that's conforming 2021-03-12T19:42:50Z White_Flame: why not while line? 2021-03-12T19:43:15Z White_Flame: or does get-line crash with eof? 2021-03-12T19:43:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: In the real code, there's an equality test onthe next char 2021-03-12T19:43:35Z White_Flame: but yeah, you can basically order these things any way you want 2021-03-12T19:44:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I guess the only rule is the variable initializations can't be mixed with accumulation or termination tests 2021-03-12T19:44:29Z White_Flame: I think WITH clauses get hoisted to the top 2021-03-12T19:44:53Z White_Flame: (loop for x from 1 to 10 collect (list x y) with y=3) does work 2021-03-12T19:44:54Z _death: White_Flame: nope.. as #lisp helped me find out a while ago, you can't put WHILE before FOR, for example 2021-03-12T19:45:02Z White_Flame: (whether that's standard or not, who knows ;) ) 2021-03-12T19:45:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, that's what I mean 2021-03-12T19:45:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: the grammar in the spec specifies `loop [name-clause] {variable-clause}* {main-clause}* ` 2021-03-12T19:45:21Z White_Flame: _death: right, hence the "basically" 2021-03-12T19:45:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: but with while clause is a main-clause 2021-03-12T19:45:51Z White_Flame: but collect vs termination vs DOs etc are fine 2021-03-12T19:47:01Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-12T19:47:34Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-12T19:50:55Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-12T19:56:21Z CL-ASHOK: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node245.html 2021-03-12T19:56:41Z CL-ASHOK: my favourite read on LOOP (I love LOOP..COLLECT!) 2021-03-12T19:58:19Z kslt1 joined #lisp 2021-03-12T20:01:26Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-03-12T20:02:11Z Nilby: Great exmaples from the great quux, but maybe the Fermat's last theorm part could use an update. 2021-03-12T20:03:02Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-03-12T20:04:54Z Grauwolf quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-03-12T20:05:21Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-12T20:05:44Z gitgoood is now known as gitgood 2021-03-12T20:07:40Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-03-12T20:07:47Z Grauwolf joined #lisp 2021-03-12T20:08:00Z rpg joined #lisp 2021-03-12T20:20:11Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-12T20:20:53Z rpg: Anyone have a recommendation or warning for UUID library? 2021-03-12T20:21:02Z CL-ASHOK: what's quux? 2021-03-12T20:22:23Z Nilby: Guy L Steele 2021-03-12T20:22:37Z Nilby: author of cltl2 2021-03-12T20:23:57Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-12T20:28:23Z rpg: Both unicly and uuid seem to be pretty ancient. 2021-03-12T20:31:38Z cchristiansen joined #lisp 2021-03-12T20:35:03Z CL-ASHOK: Thanks Nilby 2021-03-12T20:35:10Z _death: CL-ASHOK: one of the examples has the exact issue I mentioned.. it makes a lot of sense to allow it, but unfortunately it's not the case 2021-03-12T20:36:01Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2021-03-12T20:36:05Z CL-ASHOK: I'm trying to get my head around it, still a very confusing topic 2021-03-12T20:36:12Z _death: clhs 26.7 2021-03-12T20:36:12Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for 26.7. 2021-03-12T20:36:49Z _death: heh, not sure why I expected clhs to have that same section 2021-03-12T20:37:21Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-12T20:37:27Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-12T20:37:50Z warweasle joined #lisp 2021-03-12T20:38:00Z _death: clhs 6.1.4.3 2021-03-12T20:38:00Z specbot: Examples of WHILE and UNTIL clauses: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/06_adc.htm 2021-03-12T20:39:57Z _death: here the example is changed.. which is strange, because it indicates that they were aware of the limitation and chose to preserve it 2021-03-12T20:41:02Z Noisytoot is now known as [[ 2021-03-12T20:41:05Z _death: I guess it makes more sense in this particular example.. since the cltl2 version would get () for the empty stack, rather than (0) 2021-03-12T20:41:22Z [[ is now known as [[Like 2021-03-12T20:41:26Z [[Like is now known as [[ 2021-03-12T20:41:55Z [[ is now known as Noisytoot 2021-03-12T20:44:04Z _death: also, 6.1.4 keeps this sentence: "Termination-test control constructs can be used anywhere within the loop body." 2021-03-12T20:47:05Z rpg: ... and unicly won't compile -- breaks into internal SBCL packages. 2021-03-12T20:48:24Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-12T20:48:25Z CL-ASHOK: how would I declare a variable and then modify it as I see fit within a LOOP? 2021-03-12T20:48:42Z CL-ASHOK: the collect / append / etc. doesn't seem to be flexible enough for my needs 2021-03-12T20:49:39Z mfiano: rpg: Which variant? 2021-03-12T20:50:18Z _death: (loop with foo do (setf foo (random 2))) 2021-03-12T20:50:21Z rpg: mfiano: I believe v5. But I'm not sure -- I just have a JSON schema that says "uuid" -- not that helpful! 2021-03-12T20:50:24Z mfiano: rpg: One of your co-workers and I wrote random-uuid, which handles v4 efficiently 2021-03-12T20:50:40Z CL-ASHOK: Thanks _death 2021-03-12T20:50:42Z rpg: mfiano: Ah -- I didn't even know that. 2021-03-12T20:52:08Z rpg: mfiano: Pete K? 2021-03-12T20:52:52Z mfiano: Yes 2021-03-12T20:54:07Z narimiran_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-12T20:54:46Z mfiano: We wrote it for our game engine, but was recently ripped out into a separate library for the most recent QL dist. Though, not sure how useful strictly v4 may be to you. Hopefully you don't need the MAC-based variant, as that can't really be done with pure CL, and the other libraries use CFFI or OS specifics wrongly here (failed on all of my machines) 2021-03-12T20:55:36Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-12T20:56:02Z rpg: mfiano: The UURL given in Quicklisp doesn't seem to correspond to an extant repo on github.... 2021-03-12T20:56:25Z mfiano: Maybe Xach used the wrong URL...I'm not on GitHub 2021-03-12T20:56:50Z mfiano: https://git.mfiano.net/mfiano/random-uuid 2021-03-12T20:57:20Z mfiano: It's super simple...not much to it 2021-03-12T20:57:21Z rogersm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-12T20:57:56Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-12T20:58:04Z rogersm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-12T20:58:22Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-12T21:03:24Z vutral_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-12T21:03:27Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-12T21:04:42Z rogersm quit 2021-03-12T21:05:55Z yitzi joined #lisp 2021-03-12T21:07:13Z mgr- quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-12T21:07:53Z mgr_ joined #lisp 2021-03-12T21:09:02Z CL-ASHOK quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-12T21:10:13Z rpg: mfiano: Thanks -- it's nice to have that README.md. Seems like Quickdocs is dead. 2021-03-12T21:11:55Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-12T21:13:37Z rpg: mfiano: I put a notice in the Quicklisp mailing list. 2021-03-12T21:13:46Z rpg: (about the URL). 2021-03-12T21:15:26Z mfiano: It was my fault 2021-03-12T21:15:33Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-12T21:15:51Z mfiano: The :homepage was extracted from the ASD rather than the :source-control line. 2021-03-12T21:16:07Z mfiano: My coleslaw script failed some months ago and I haven't repaired my homepage yet 2021-03-12T21:16:33Z mfiano: In any case, the git URL in the asd which I gave you is where the code lives anyway 2021-03-12T21:17:31Z mfiano: Xach: is homepage required, and does your script fall back to :source-control if not present? 2021-03-12T21:21:16Z Noisytoot quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-12T21:34:23Z CL-ASHOK joined #lisp 2021-03-12T21:35:17Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-12T21:35:52Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-12T21:38:13Z aindilis joined #lisp 2021-03-12T21:38:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: but _death see 6.1.1.4 2021-03-12T21:38:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs 6.1.1.4 2021-03-12T21:38:37Z specbot: Expanding Loop Forms: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/06_aad.htm 2021-03-12T21:39:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: hmm, maybe that doesn't help: I misread the definition of "loop body" there 2021-03-12T21:42:09Z CL-ASHOK quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2021-03-12T21:42:27Z Xach: mfiano: it is not required, and no 2021-03-12T21:51:28Z warweasle quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 26.1) 2021-03-12T21:54:07Z _death: fiddlerwoaroof: it does help, somewhat.. if termination-test can only contribute to the loop body (as defined there), and for-as-clause contributes to both the loop prologue and the loop body.. 2021-03-12T21:58:03Z ficl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-12T22:00:03Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-12T22:03:11Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-12T22:07:48Z hjudt joined #lisp 2021-03-12T22:09:38Z CrazyPython quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-12T22:10:18Z CrazyPython joined #lisp 2021-03-12T22:14:44Z CrazyPython quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-12T22:15:13Z Tordek quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-12T22:22:13Z kaiwulf joined #lisp 2021-03-12T22:23:27Z CrazyPython joined #lisp 2021-03-12T22:29:22Z CrazyPython quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-12T22:31:38Z warweasle joined #lisp 2021-03-12T22:34:09Z mfiano: Alright fixed homepage fragment in all my asd's. Maybe I won't get a fifth complaint this month :) 2021-03-12T22:36:54Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-12T22:36:54Z Xach: mfiano: thanks 2021-03-12T22:38:01Z Wezl joined #lisp 2021-03-12T22:38:26Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-12T22:41:34Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-12T22:46:09Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-12T22:47:36Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-12T22:49:39Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-12T22:50:12Z jonatack_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-12T22:50:20Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-12T22:50:43Z CrazyPython joined #lisp 2021-03-12T22:52:16Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-12T22:52:58Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-12T22:55:00Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-12T22:55:29Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-12T22:58:08Z pve quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-12T23:01:33Z Tordek joined #lisp 2021-03-12T23:04:49Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-12T23:05:01Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-12T23:05:01Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-12T23:05:15Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-12T23:06:43Z hjudt quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-12T23:11:54Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-12T23:13:47Z surabax quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-12T23:20:03Z attila_lendvai_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-12T23:26:54Z curtosis joined #lisp 2021-03-12T23:29:06Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-12T23:33:33Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-12T23:36:12Z rgherdt quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-12T23:36:41Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2021-03-12T23:37:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've found a couple macros sort of interesting: 2021-03-12T23:37:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: MAY takes (may (string-upcase string)) and turns it into (when string (string-upcase string)) [obviously, without the double-eval of "string"] 2021-03-12T23:38:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't have a good name for the other one, but it converts the first arg into a stream using WITH-INPUT-FROM-STRING 2021-03-12T23:39:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: That one's newer, but the MAY macro reads a lot nicer and reduces boilerplate in a way I find pleasant 2021-03-12T23:39:42Z Wezl left #lisp 2021-03-12T23:42:40Z moon-child: fiddlerwoaroof: I think it had been better as (may string #'string-upcase). Else it may not be clear which object is potentially-nil. (Think (may (+ x 5)).) 2021-03-12T23:42:54Z madage joined #lisp 2021-03-12T23:43:31Z moon-child: and that lets you express something like (may #L(+ _ y) x) 2021-03-12T23:43:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's always the first argument 2021-03-12T23:43:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: I like that the wrapped form still reads correctly 2021-03-12T23:47:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, I can see the advantages of the other way: I think I first invented it when I was getting annoyed by nil checks :) 2021-03-12T23:47:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: e.g. if my code is already (string-upcase string), it's really easy to fix it by just doing (may (string-upcase string)) 2021-03-12T23:51:25Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-12T23:55:58Z curtosis is now known as curtosis[away] 2021-03-12T23:56:27Z curtosis[away] quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-12T23:56:32Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: it should be may1 may2 and mayn, like progn 2021-03-12T23:56:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: hmm, maybe 2021-03-12T23:57:57Z White_Flame: fiddlerwoaroof: I could see this as somewhat related to alexandria:when-let* 2021-03-12T23:58:24Z White_Flame: sort of a nested version of that 2021-03-13T00:08:04Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-13T00:08:45Z sz0 joined #lisp 2021-03-13T00:11:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, more limited and optimized for a common pattern 2021-03-13T00:12:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: when-let is sort of annoying because there's no way to just put boolean expressions in there 2021-03-13T00:12:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: e.g. (when-let* (string (upcased (string-upcase string))) upcased) 2021-03-13T00:13:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: where the first, unpaired, form is treated as an assertion rather than introducing a binding 2021-03-13T00:14:43Z White_Flame: right, you're not passing nil through 2021-03-13T00:14:58Z kslt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-13T00:15:31Z White_Flame: oh wait, no you'd still be 2021-03-13T00:16:08Z White_Flame: in any case, it would be nice sometimes to get rid of the intermediate varnames & nesting and use a chain variable 2021-03-13T00:16:42Z White_Flame: (chain ! (step1 x) (step2 !) (step3 foo !) (step4 ! bar) ...) 2021-03-13T00:16:53Z White_Flame: where the ! would be the name for the prior expression's value, if not NIL 2021-03-13T00:17:12Z White_Flame: reads better vertically 2021-03-13T00:18:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I had something like that (let-each (:be *) foo (car *) ...) 2021-03-13T00:18:54Z White_Flame: yep, I didn't use * because that's already a thing at the repl 2021-03-13T00:18:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: When I tried to explain it back here a while ago, the naming confused everyone :) 2021-03-13T00:19:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, but that's why I used it :) 2021-03-13T00:19:11Z White_Flame: heh 2021-03-13T00:19:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: As far as I can tell, it's conforming 2021-03-13T00:19:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: And it doesn't actually set it, outside the context of the form 2021-03-13T00:30:18Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2021-03-13T00:34:24Z White_Flame: if you want to be real fancy, you could bind *, **, and *** in there, too 2021-03-13T00:35:15Z White_Flame: although for that, having an optional name for something referred to more that once makes more sense than always updating those 2021-03-13T00:35:40Z White_Flame: although although a smart enough macroexpansion & code walker can detect when you use ** and *** and do that for you 2021-03-13T00:48:30Z brad22 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-13T00:51:13Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-13T00:59:00Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-13T01:01:10Z isoraqathedh2 joined #lisp 2021-03-13T01:03:02Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-13T01:03:24Z karlosz quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-13T01:07:09Z gitgoood joined #lisp 2021-03-13T01:10:04Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-13T01:10:10Z brad22 joined #lisp 2021-03-13T01:10:10Z gitgood quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-13T01:10:56Z brad22_ joined #lisp 2021-03-13T01:15:16Z brad22 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-13T01:17:29Z isoraqathedh2 is now known as isoraqathedh 2021-03-13T01:20:22Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-13T01:23:43Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-13T01:31:57Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-13T01:41:05Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-13T01:49:50Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-13T01:58:48Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-13T02:04:14Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-13T02:14:37Z gitgoood quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-13T02:26:51Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-13T02:27:55Z matryoshka joined #lisp 2021-03-13T02:30:03Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-13T02:31:02Z matryoshka joined #lisp 2021-03-13T02:33:41Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-13T02:34:43Z matryoshka joined #lisp 2021-03-13T02:35:15Z long4mud joined #lisp 2021-03-13T02:36:31Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-13T02:37:33Z matryoshka joined #lisp 2021-03-13T02:38:36Z hineios2 joined #lisp 2021-03-13T02:39:13Z hineios quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-13T02:39:14Z hineios2 is now known as hineios 2021-03-13T02:42:14Z akoana joined #lisp 2021-03-13T02:48:48Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-13T02:56:10Z really2 joined #lisp 2021-03-13T02:56:50Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2021-03-13T02:59:02Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-13T03:03:28Z CrazyPython quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-13T03:12:54Z semz joined #lisp 2021-03-13T03:15:28Z pyc quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-13T03:15:38Z pyc joined #lisp 2021-03-13T03:17:01Z vegansbane6963 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-13T03:18:04Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-03-13T03:24:09Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-03-13T03:25:53Z karlosz quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-13T03:35:42Z kevingal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-13T03:35:42Z kevingal_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-13T03:42:13Z matryoshka quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-13T03:43:35Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-13T03:51:53Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-13T03:53:24Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-13T03:57:38Z CrazyPython joined #lisp 2021-03-13T04:02:08Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2021-03-13T04:02:30Z Alfr is now known as Guest35071 2021-03-13T04:02:34Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-03-13T04:04:50Z CrazyPython quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-13T04:04:57Z Guest35071 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-13T04:05:07Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-13T04:07:39Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-13T04:09:07Z Sheilong quit 2021-03-13T04:09:55Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-13T04:11:57Z sxmx: good morning beach 2021-03-13T04:17:25Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-13T04:21:22Z matryoshka joined #lisp 2021-03-13T04:23:58Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-13T04:24:01Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-13T04:30:16Z brad22_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-13T04:32:26Z beach: White_Flame: WHILE LINE would violate the expectations of the person reading the code, as indicated on page 13 or the LUV slides. 2021-03-13T04:32:59Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-03-13T04:33:50Z beach: sxmx: Are you new here? I don't recognize your nic. 2021-03-13T04:34:00Z rickygee joined #lisp 2021-03-13T04:36:27Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-03-13T04:42:03Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-13T04:47:16Z mindCrime_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-13T04:47:43Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-13T04:53:06Z really2 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-13T04:56:01Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-13T04:56:56Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-13T04:57:51Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-13T04:58:06Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-13T05:15:09Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-13T05:18:36Z toorevitimirp quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-13T05:20:39Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-03-13T05:30:19Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-13T05:30:45Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-13T05:31:18Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-13T05:50:03Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-03-13T06:01:23Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-13T06:02:52Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-13T06:02:57Z kaiwulf quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-13T06:07:02Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-13T06:10:32Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-13T06:11:18Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-13T06:17:26Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-13T06:19:49Z White_Flame: beach: trying to figure out what you mean. maybe implying that using a line-or-nil field directly as a nil check is supposed to be bad form, and "until (null line)" would be better? 2021-03-13T06:20:18Z beach: Exactly. 2021-03-13T06:20:53Z White_Flame: eh, take it up with CLHS ;) http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/06_adc.htm 2021-03-13T06:20:56Z beach: The NIL returned is not a Boolean. It is a default value. So using it as a Boolean violates the expectations, as indicated on page 13 of the LUV slides. 2021-03-13T06:21:20Z beach: White_Flame: I am not talking about semantics. I am talking software engineering. 2021-03-13T06:22:24Z White_Flame: yeah, I know. I don't really agree with that particular, though 2021-03-13T06:22:29Z beach: Of course. 2021-03-13T06:22:39Z beach: I mean, of course you don't. 2021-03-13T06:23:24Z White_Flame: lisp is pretty clear in its nil vs non-nil semantics for booleans, while something like C is more ambiguous with its int 0 and NULL pointer equivalence as boolean 2021-03-13T06:23:53Z beach: Yes, but, again, my argument is not related to semantics. 2021-03-13T06:23:56Z White_Flame: *effective equivalence 2021-03-13T06:23:58Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-13T06:24:17Z beach: If every semantically correct program were also acceptable in terms of style, we would have a big mess. 2021-03-13T06:24:42Z White_Flame: I know it's a style issue raised 2021-03-13T06:25:24Z White_Flame: in the linked clhs page, it does "while stack" in its loop construct. Would you say that that's also a bad use of a list variable, and it should be a specific (null stack) as well? 2021-03-13T06:25:43Z beach: Yes, that's bad style. 2021-03-13T06:26:54Z beach: In fact, since it's a stack, it should probably be abstracted to (emptyp stack) or something similar. 2021-03-13T06:26:57Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-13T06:27:47Z White_Flame: (and really, it should be (cons (length stack) stack) to achieve the effect of the code, as the loop is really roundabout :) ) 2021-03-13T06:28:12Z beach: I didn't look at the code. 2021-03-13T06:33:02Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-13T06:33:02Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2021-03-13T06:33:02Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-13T06:33:42Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-13T06:34:12Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-13T06:39:39Z akoana left #lisp 2021-03-13T06:42:34Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-13T06:42:52Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-13T06:46:41Z asarch joined #lisp 2021-03-13T06:49:16Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-13T06:57:45Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-13T06:58:57Z juliusdeane joined #lisp 2021-03-13T06:59:26Z juliusdeane: so I'm trying to write cffi bindings to a c library I wrote 2021-03-13T06:59:36Z juliusdeane: and using dynamically allocated structs is causing memory faults 2021-03-13T06:59:52Z juliusdeane: so I was wondering if there's a good method for debugging/avoiding these memory faults 2021-03-13T07:00:05Z juliusdeane: (I'm fairly new to lisp and cffi btw) 2021-03-13T07:00:23Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-13T07:02:46Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-13T07:03:24Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-13T07:08:12Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-13T07:10:21Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-13T07:21:46Z beach: juliusdeane: Yes, don't use FFI. 2021-03-13T07:21:50Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-13T07:22:09Z beach: juliusdeane: If you are unfamiliar with Common Lisp programming, that's a really bad way of getting started. 2021-03-13T07:24:45Z beach: juliusdeane: Unlike something like Python, you don't need to write your libraries in C to get decent performance out of a good Common Lisp implementation. 2021-03-13T07:32:09Z juliusde` joined #lisp 2021-03-13T07:32:38Z madage quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-13T07:32:51Z madage joined #lisp 2021-03-13T07:33:49Z juliusde` left #lisp 2021-03-13T07:34:02Z juliusdeane quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-13T07:41:22Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-13T07:43:58Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-13T07:44:14Z attila_lendvai_ joined #lisp 2021-03-13T07:45:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: beach: I've never been entirely convinced by that part of LUV 2021-03-13T07:45:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: The equivalent idiom is pretty widespread and well-known in languages with falsy values, and it reads nicely 2021-03-13T07:46:18Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-13T07:48:43Z beach: Of course. 2021-03-13T07:48:57Z beach: And by that, I mean "of course you have never been entirely convinced..." 2021-03-13T07:49:47Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-13T07:52:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: Well, ultimately, my question would be what is the evidence that code like (loop for line = (read-line nil) while line ...) actually causes problems in understanding 2021-03-13T07:53:46Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-13T07:54:02Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-13T07:54:33Z splittist is with fiddlerwoaroof 2021-03-13T07:54:37Z beach: Conventions exist in order to make it faster for a person reading the code to understand what it means. Just as with natural languages, if you violate the expectations, then the text may still be possible to understand, but it is going to take longer. 2021-03-13T07:55:23Z splittist: Our first evidence is our expectations; then actual practice - surely. 2021-03-13T07:55:32Z beach: I personally have to pause and think about what code like that means. I end up understanding it, but it takes longer. 2021-03-13T07:57:26Z splittist: 'Keep going while there is something to do' seems as least as natural to me - I make no claims about others - than 'Keep going until there is nothing to act upon'. I do not hold myself out as being representative, or even a good example. 2021-03-13T07:57:34Z beach: But I have made this argument over and over again, and I am getting tired of arguing. 2021-03-13T07:58:45Z beach: splittist: Sure, you can do (loop ... while (stringp line)...) that's fine. But the argument is not between WHILE and UNTIL. 2021-03-13T07:58:53Z aggin joined #lisp 2021-03-13T07:59:25Z splittist: Oh. 2021-03-13T08:00:37Z wilfredh joined #lisp 2021-03-13T08:01:36Z beach: It's about treating a default value (that happens to be NIL in this case) as a Boolean. The code logic should not have to change if the default value changes to (say) :NONE. 2021-03-13T08:03:09Z matryoshka quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-13T08:03:28Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-13T08:04:04Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-13T08:04:24Z splittist: Hmm. 2021-03-13T08:05:30Z aggin quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-13T08:06:51Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-13T08:15:36Z jdz: beach: Just a thought: what about (read-line stream nil nil)? 2021-03-13T08:15:55Z jdz: In this case a literal nil as a boolean is given. 2021-03-13T08:16:42Z beach: Why do you say that? NIL is perfectly good as a default value. 2021-03-13T08:16:53Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-13T08:17:25Z jdz: I mean using NIL as the eof-value, and looping with WHILE. 2021-03-13T08:17:42Z beach: It is still a default value, and not a Boolean. 2021-03-13T08:18:22Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-03-13T08:18:50Z jdz: OK, I think my intuition might be starting to adjust. 2021-03-13T08:19:22Z jdz: I'm also one of those using the mentioned READ-LINE loops. 2021-03-13T08:19:32Z jdz: Have never stopped to think. 2021-03-13T08:22:59Z jackdaniel: (when-let ((foo (something))) …) also violates that expectation, because it conflates "null" with "false" since while takes a test; still I think that it is easier to read for the programmer accustomed to the macro than (let ((foo (something))) (unless (null foo) …)); maybe expecting the in if/while etc as "either false or null value" would embrace both uses 2021-03-13T08:23:25Z jackdaniel: (expectation-wise) 2021-03-13T08:26:08Z jackdaniel: boolean or object-nullness ,) 2021-03-13T08:29:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: I generally agree that nil as a default value shouldn't be treated as a boolean in every case. 2021-03-13T08:30:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: e.g. (when (car list) ...) is probably better written (when (null (car list) ...) or something 2021-03-13T08:31:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: In this case the default value signifies something very close semantically to false "no more input or something", so the reading "assign line to the next line, while there is a line ..." is pretty straightforward, given the semantics of the functions involved 2021-03-13T08:32:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: argh, I'm tired and can't get my parentheses right :) 2021-03-13T08:34:13Z moon-child: what about (when (cdr list)), though? 'when the list has a cdr' vs 'when the list's cdr is not null' - those two seem pretty close in meaning to me 2021-03-13T08:35:19Z beach: A list always has a CDR. 2021-03-13T08:35:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm not sure, I think I usually write (when (null (cdr list))) for "real" code. 2021-03-13T08:36:04Z beach: moon-child: Again, it is not about meaning (= semantics), it is about avoiding surprises to the person reading your code. 2021-03-13T08:37:37Z surabax joined #lisp 2021-03-13T08:39:07Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-13T08:39:59Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-13T08:40:11Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-13T08:41:22Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-13T08:43:53Z pve joined #lisp 2021-03-13T08:44:59Z ficl joined #lisp 2021-03-13T08:48:16Z attila_lendvai_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-13T08:50:57Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2021-03-13T09:02:38Z flip214: using postmodern, how would I get the comments associated to fields in the DB? 2021-03-13T09:03:13Z flip214: (pomo:table-description-plus) doesn't return them, is there another high-level function? 2021-03-13T09:03:26Z flip214: (yeah, I can always query PG internal tables...) 2021-03-13T09:05:21Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-13T09:08:19Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-03-13T09:11:14Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-13T09:11:50Z sabrac joined #lisp 2021-03-13T09:14:57Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-13T09:15:13Z sabrac: flip214: Postmodern does not have a high level function to get comments associated with a database. I could add something tomorrow if you PM me what you would like. 2021-03-13T09:15:17Z surabax quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-13T09:21:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-13T09:23:10Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2021-03-13T09:32:45Z andreyorst quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-13T09:40:59Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-03-13T09:41:18Z White_Flame: beach: you keep using the term "default value", but I don't think that's what it is in these cases. It's an intentional value for a particular state, not some uninitialized fallback, unless I'm understanding the label incorrectly 2021-03-13T09:42:00Z White_Flame: and intentionally selected to be easy to use in tests 2021-03-13T09:42:37Z White_Flame: of course, when NIL is ambiguous with data, we do things like :eof or a 2nd boolean returned value 2021-03-13T09:43:07Z White_Flame: but even then, those aren't defaults, they're alternates 2021-03-13T09:43:08Z beach: Like I said, I am getting tired of arguing this thing. I am definitely a member of the group that is referred to by the LUV slides in that I must pause and think when I see such code. If you don't want to cater to that group of people, that is of course entirely your choice. 2021-03-13T09:43:36Z White_Flame: well, I'm asking in particular about the term "default value" 2021-03-13T09:43:43Z White_Flame: regardless of the stylistic choice 2021-03-13T09:43:48Z beach: clhs read-line 2021-03-13T09:43:49Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_lin.htm 2021-03-13T09:44:01Z White_Flame: the example didn't use read-line 2021-03-13T09:44:06Z beach: It doesn't say "default value", but EOF-VALUE. 2021-03-13T09:44:36Z beach: Can you remind me what the example was? 2021-03-13T09:44:52Z White_Flame: (loop for line = (get-line s) while (peek-char nil s) collect line) 2021-03-13T09:44:57Z beach: My term "default value" was meant to be relative to read-line. 2021-03-13T09:45:08Z White_Flame: and he was doing his own peeking around the char stream, presumably not with read-line 2021-03-13T09:45:42Z White_Flame: ah, k 2021-03-13T09:45:45Z beach: Let me check the Common Lisp HyperSpec page for PEEK-CHAR... 2021-03-13T09:47:32Z White_Flame: similar to read-line in terms of the eof-value 2021-03-13T09:47:40Z beach: Same thing. PEEK-CHAR returns a character or the EOF-VALUE which is a default value to be returned when the stream is at end of file. 2021-03-13T09:48:21Z beach: So WHILE (PEEK-CHAR...) violates the expectations that WHILE should take a Boolean value. 2021-03-13T09:48:37Z White_Flame: but while (peek-char ... :eof-value nil) is okay? 2021-03-13T09:48:38Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-13T09:48:45Z beach: No. 2021-03-13T09:48:53Z beach: NIL is a default value here. Not a Boolean. 2021-03-13T09:50:48Z White_Flame: I simply mean that if it's explicitly provided, it might no longer be classified as a default 2021-03-13T09:51:06Z beach: I don't see the difference. 2021-03-13T09:51:25Z White_Flame: and thus while <- NIL is explicitly linking a boolean value to the test 2021-03-13T09:51:46Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-13T09:51:55Z White_Flame: (although obviously the non-eof case is still a non-boolean) 2021-03-13T09:55:55Z _death: personally I like generalized booleans :) 2021-03-13T09:57:02Z beach: Sure, but this is not a Boolean, and not a generalized Boolean. 2021-03-13T09:57:12Z beach: It's a character or a default value. 2021-03-13T09:58:00Z _death: well, all objects can be generalized booleans 2021-03-13T09:58:30Z _death: do you use (when (member ...) ...) by the way? 2021-03-13T10:09:34Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-13T10:09:42Z gareppa joined #lisp 2021-03-13T10:10:13Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-13T10:10:43Z White_Flame: there's also no single formto convert a value into a non-inverted boolean, is there? eg (when (not (null x)) ...) 2021-03-13T10:11:32Z _death: (setf (fdefinition 'truep) #'identity) 2021-03-13T10:11:58Z White_Flame: well, that's simply renaming, not calling a CLHS function that returns a stated boolean 2021-03-13T10:12:44Z White_Flame: comparable to NULL which takes a value and returns a boolean 2021-03-13T10:13:12Z _death: I also wonder how much booleans (as opposed to generalized booleans) are used in CL.. and why did they pick NIL as default eof-value for example.. why not :EOF? :) 2021-03-13T10:13:23Z White_Flame: easy testing 2021-03-13T10:13:29Z _death: White_Flame: exactly 2021-03-13T10:13:36Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-13T10:14:50Z _death: White_Flame: if you look at the glossary entry for "true", you see that it's not limited to T, so a TRUEP that returns NIL or T would be misnamed 2021-03-13T10:15:04Z _death: *accepts NIL or T 2021-03-13T10:15:24Z White_Flame: right, again it's not the data semantics, but the notional semantics 2021-03-13T10:15:49Z _death: I guess you want it to return T or NIL like NULL does? 2021-03-13T10:15:52Z White_Flame: NOT and NULL do the exact same thing, but deal with the notions differently 2021-03-13T10:16:03Z White_Flame: oh right, NULL does return T 2021-03-13T10:18:00Z _death: but NULL returns T arbitrarily.. they could just as well make it return :YEAH.. so the glossary entry for T says it's the "canonical generalized boolean" 2021-03-13T10:18:37Z White_Flame: AND and OR with a single value are somewhat comparable, though misused in this sense when given a non-boolean 2021-03-13T10:18:45Z sauvin joined #lisp 2021-03-13T10:18:48Z White_Flame: and they don't snap true to T 2021-03-13T10:19:05Z _death: because Lisp is pragmatic 2021-03-13T10:19:27Z _death: otherwise we'd have #T and #F and remove generalized booleans 2021-03-13T10:19:43Z White_Flame: the spec does define notions of boolean, and according to these arguments, those notions should be followed. I'm exploring that space 2021-03-13T10:20:12Z _death: according to what arguments? 2021-03-13T10:20:35Z White_Flame: from the LUV etc 2021-03-13T10:21:06Z _death: well, I'm not sure LUV is cut-and-dry against generalized booleans.. but I've not checked it recently 2021-03-13T10:21:22Z White_Flame: heh, I'm wrong about AND and OR. the clhs pages don't mention boolean at all 2021-03-13T10:21:48Z White_Flame: only NILness 2021-03-13T10:22:12Z White_Flame: so (when (and ...) ..) fails the LUV understandability test 2021-03-13T10:22:28Z _death: which page of LUV are you referring to 2021-03-13T10:22:29Z White_Flame: as does member, as you mentioned above 2021-03-13T10:22:37Z White_Flame: page 13 is what beach brought up 2021-03-13T10:24:37Z White_Flame: and these are mostly extrapolated from there, not literal 2021-03-13T10:25:04Z _death: maybe they meant something slightly different, like "don't use and, or as a progn" 2021-03-13T10:25:05Z White_Flame: and yeah, this casts more assumptions upon the language than the clhs defines 2021-03-13T10:25:27Z gareppa quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-13T10:25:33Z White_Flame: (and (numberp x) (cos x)) is listed as bad because (cos x) is not a boolean 2021-03-13T10:26:21Z White_Flame: (but AND is not defined to take or return booleans anyway per the spec) 2021-03-13T10:26:26Z _death: well, instead of COS, let's say it's NULL 2021-03-13T10:26:48Z _death: (and instead of NUMBERP, let's say FOOP) 2021-03-13T10:27:09Z White_Flame: it really comes down to "expectation" which is not universal for such extrapolated concepts 2021-03-13T10:27:10Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-13T10:27:21Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-13T10:28:03Z _death: then still, they may say it's better to (if (foop x) (null x) nil) than (and (foop x) (null x)), even though NULL returns a boolean 2021-03-13T10:28:07Z vaporatorius quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-13T10:28:38Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2021-03-13T10:28:49Z White_Flame: nah, those both return booleans. (and (numberp x) (> x 3)) is listed as "follows expectations" 2021-03-13T10:28:53Z White_Flame: http://www.norvig.com/luv-slides.pdf 2021-03-13T10:29:09Z _death: White_Flame: I know they both return booleans.. I set up this example on purpose 2021-03-13T10:29:43Z White_Flame: in any case, their expectations are not defined by the CLHS 2021-03-13T10:29:57Z _death: I am saying, maybe they didn't mean "and, or for boolean value only", but something like "don't use and, or to do something other than test" 2021-03-13T10:30:21Z White_Flame: it reads pretty literally, including in light of the examples 2021-03-13T10:30:21Z wilfredh quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-13T10:31:08Z White_Flame: the notions are reasonable, but the specifics here are certainly arguable 2021-03-13T10:32:08Z White_Flame: my "expectations" are that there are NIL checks in CL, and especially teh definitions of AND and OR project that, completely ignoring the notion of "boolean" completely in their definition 2021-03-13T10:33:19Z White_Flame edits poorly but should get the point across :-P 2021-03-13T10:34:16Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-03-13T10:35:12Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-13T10:36:34Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-03-13T10:37:06Z cchristiansen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-13T10:39:17Z qing joined #lisp 2021-03-13T10:39:32Z qing quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-13T10:39:45Z _death: they can't help but use OR that way, by the way.. for example in page 64 they have (or ... (member ...)) 2021-03-13T10:40:34Z White_Flame: that's assuming that member is a generalized boolean return 2021-03-13T10:40:52Z White_Flame: the spec calls it "tail -- a list" 2021-03-13T10:41:23Z _death: it's true that they pass it to remove-if and not do something with what it returns, there 2021-03-13T10:41:31Z _death: *do something more 2021-03-13T10:42:30Z White_Flame: so yeah, this is just subjective assumptions of what things "should be" boolean, and certainly there will be disagreements on its reach 2021-03-13T10:43:18Z vaporatorius quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-13T10:43:37Z White_Flame: and if they "shouldn't be" boolean, then it's by definition ununderstandble 2021-03-13T10:43:47Z White_Flame: in a "should be" boolean location 2021-03-13T10:44:41Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-13T10:46:12Z White_Flame: I would rather harp on comments explaining why code is written the way it is 2021-03-13T10:48:17Z _death: maybe they did actually mean it.. I don't see examples to contradict outright 2021-03-13T10:49:03Z White_Flame: the terse style of the document leaves it wide open to interpretation and extrapolation 2021-03-13T10:50:34Z _death: so beach is right to give LUV as a source of support.. I guess I'm a bit farther than LUV's point on this continuum 2021-03-13T10:50:38Z kslt1 joined #lisp 2021-03-13T10:52:05Z ldb joined #lisp 2021-03-13T10:53:22Z terpri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-13T11:00:06Z vegansbane6963 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-03-13T11:01:31Z beach: I always thought of myself as a reasonably good teacher. But my complete failure to get the point across every time it is brought up must either mean that I have been wrong about myself all these years, or that I am losing my teaching abilities. 2021-03-13T11:02:36Z _death: beach: I think it's just a subtle point 2021-03-13T11:02:38Z Inline quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-13T11:02:54Z White_Flame: to be fair to yourself, we only get a little snippet here & there, and you rightly don't want to repeat the entire lecture every time 2021-03-13T11:09:05Z _death: beach: it may also be that some people don't see anything out of the ordinary in forms like (loop for line = (read-line ...) while line ...) 2021-03-13T11:09:51Z beach: _death: That is definitely true. And I seem to fail spectacularly to explain the point to those people. 2021-03-13T11:11:21Z beach: I think the origin of the problem is that most people here don't have much experience with large projects in collaboration with many others, so to them, there is no need for conventions. 2021-03-13T11:11:41Z _death: beach: "hell is other people's code" :) 2021-03-13T11:11:58Z beach: So anything that respects the semantics of the language is OK to them. 2021-03-13T11:13:17Z White_Flame: I'll take that as a misdirected slight ;) 2021-03-13T11:13:38Z _death: beach: I'm not sure there's a need to go that far.. it's possible for them not to see an issue there and to see tons of issues elsewhere 2021-03-13T11:13:45Z beach: This is why I invoke the LUV slides, written by highly experienced people in this respect, rather than stating the point as my personal opinion. These other people always end up stating their personal opinion that WHILE LINE is fine for them, but that is so totally beside the point in terms of conventions, which are precisely NOT a question of personal opinions. 2021-03-13T11:13:58Z White_Flame: just yesterday, I had to get into untouched-for-years code in a large commercial project, and good comments in the source code made it easy 2021-03-13T11:14:41Z White_Flame: there are no "weird" conventions in the source code, but different teams have different levels of familiarity 2021-03-13T11:15:49Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-03-13T11:16:12Z White_Flame: those teams where there's large turnover and documentation describing conventions, those conventions stil have to be learned 2021-03-13T11:16:40Z _death: beach: right, but it's one thing to give LUV as an example of support, written by experts, and it's another thing to expect that everyone adopts it 2021-03-13T11:16:50Z White_Flame: "the only intuitive interface is the nipple, all else is learned", I do maintain that there is no universal workable "expectation" set for conventions 2021-03-13T11:17:11Z White_Flame: and that is either specified to a team, or tribal knowledge within it 2021-03-13T11:21:07Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-13T11:21:47Z really2 joined #lisp 2021-03-13T11:22:08Z beach: _death: I have never asked for everyone to adopt the advice. I keep saying over and over again, that people should feel free to not respect conventions, as long as they also don't expect others to then read and debug their code for them. 2021-03-13T11:22:30Z White_Flame: which set of conventions? 2021-03-13T11:22:56Z White_Flame: have you seen help-givers here confused by (and value (op value)) ? 2021-03-13T11:23:08Z beach: Yes, me. 2021-03-13T11:23:13Z beach: I said that already. 2021-03-13T11:23:25Z beach: I have to stop and think about it for a few seconds. 2021-03-13T11:23:39Z beach: And that is the point that I am apparently still unable to get across. 2021-03-13T11:23:52Z White_Flame: is (when value (op value))'s potential return value of NIL also confusing to read? 2021-03-13T11:24:04Z beach: That these conventions exist to avoid surprises to the person reading the code and to speed up the process of understanding it. 2021-03-13T11:24:18Z White_Flame: to those familiar with such style, it is neither surprising nor unexpected 2021-03-13T11:24:26Z _death: beach: yeah, but some things are subtle, like this point, and some things are less subtle, like one closing paren per line.. so I'm guessing more people would make a fuss reading the code doing the latter 2021-03-13T11:24:47Z White_Flame: and arguably the (or (foo) (member ...)) falls under the same classification 2021-03-13T11:25:22Z White_Flame: yes, I do see much more agreement on poor indentation and paren style making code unreadable 2021-03-13T11:25:54Z White_Flame: and conventions are artifacts of groups 2021-03-13T11:26:21Z beach: I find it hard to believe that two highly experienced people like Norvig and Pitman would be completely unfamiliar with these examples, and that this unfamiliarity is the basis for the conventions they expose in the LUV slides. 2021-03-13T11:26:21Z really2 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-13T11:27:24Z White_Flame: oftentimes, these are imposed to a large group of developers to keep the least experienced on a limited track 2021-03-13T11:27:41Z White_Flame: (generally speaking, not necessarily specific to that doc) 2021-03-13T11:27:46Z beach: And I myself am certainly familiar with code like that. Nevertheless I am a member of the target group for the LUV slides, namely the group of people who have to pause to figure out what it means. 2021-03-13T11:28:40Z beach: And, sure, maybe I am one of the least experienced people here when it comes to Common Lisp programming. It is entirely possible. 2021-03-13T11:29:03Z White_Flame: well, it's certainly a lot to do with environment 2021-03-13T11:29:33Z White_Flame: commercial, academic, and self-learning need to hold different considerations 2021-03-13T11:29:48Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-03-13T11:30:07Z ldb: the sin is start coding without a complete understand of the problem to tackle 2021-03-13T11:30:11Z beach: I never think of myself as unique. So if Norvig and Pitman claim that there are people who are slowed down by code like this, there must be quite a few of us. 2021-03-13T11:30:22Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-13T11:33:29Z White_Flame: there's a lot of judgment vs pedantry in how such things are determined, collected, and thrust upon others 2021-03-13T11:33:41Z _death: beach: the LUV is an excellent document.. I think I read it at least once a year 2021-03-13T11:33:58Z White_Flame: in the scenario of trying to control code problems within a team 2021-03-13T11:35:27Z White_Flame: eg, somebody writes a good idea, and it gets treated by the letter of the law 2021-03-13T11:42:10Z _death: I guess there also needs to be a "suspension of belief" part, where you just follow a convention, even if you don't like it or see the point at first.. after a while, it may (or may not..) become preferable.. I guess one point of resistance is that (not (null line)) is more verbose, but maybe it's worth trying to follow for a while 2021-03-13T11:42:44Z White_Flame: yep, and that depends on what team you're on 2021-03-13T11:42:57Z White_Flame: in a place like this, there's a collision of conventions 2021-03-13T11:43:05Z _death: White_Flame: even without a team, just to make up a personal style decision 2021-03-13T11:43:20Z White_Flame: yep, and that's very pick-and-choose 2021-03-13T11:44:20Z White_Flame: and there's certainly a difference between a newbie who is trying stuff, vs somebody who has developed conventions elsewhere 2021-03-13T11:45:27Z _death: in that particular case "until (null line)" could avoid the "double-negative" feel 2021-03-13T11:48:22Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-03-13T11:53:22Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-03-13T11:54:35Z Noisytoot joined #lisp 2021-03-13T11:55:16Z kingcons quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.5+deb1+deb9u2 - http://znc.in) 2021-03-13T11:56:33Z pranavats: Hello, is there any simple way to compare two standard objects for equality of their slot values without writing a special function for each class? 2021-03-13T11:57:18Z _death: in general, no 2021-03-13T11:57:54Z pranavats: I want to write test for a function that returns a standard object composed of many other such objects. Is writing special functions for each class the only option to test for equality of slots? 2021-03-13T11:58:19Z _death: and in general, it doesn't depend just on the class, but also on what you want to use it for 2021-03-13T12:00:20Z pranavats: I see 2021-03-13T12:00:29Z White_Flame: equality in general is too general to have some singular general operation. Even the standard CL stuff has 4 generic equality operations, and even those don't suffice for every case 2021-03-13T12:02:07Z pranavats: Yes, but some functions like MEMBER accept equality test functions to mitigate that. 2021-03-13T12:02:07Z _death: the MOP can give you introspective capabilities like that, so that may work in a particular domain 2021-03-13T12:03:23Z pranavats: Thanks 2021-03-13T12:05:35Z Cthulhux quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-13T12:06:14Z Cthulhux joined #lisp 2021-03-13T12:11:26Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-13T12:16:03Z klltkr joined #lisp 2021-03-13T12:21:18Z frodef quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-13T12:28:01Z JokerAscensionEx joined #lisp 2021-03-13T12:28:08Z JokerAscensionEx quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-13T12:38:55Z toorevitimirp quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2021-03-13T12:45:27Z frodef joined #lisp 2021-03-13T12:48:29Z xanderle quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-13T12:49:58Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-03-13T12:53:08Z drl joined #lisp 2021-03-13T12:55:18Z JokerAscensionEx joined #lisp 2021-03-13T12:55:26Z JokerAscensionEx quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-13T13:01:17Z phoe: pranavats: as long as you know what you are doing, you can write your own equality predicate that uses mapcar #'slot-value over mop:class-slots for standard objects and defers to whichever predicate you want (eq/eql/equal/equalp/???) for non-standard-objects 2021-03-13T13:01:34Z phoe: and that's going to be a single function 2021-03-13T13:01:50Z phoe: but remember that this is going to work only as long as you know what you're doing 2021-03-13T13:03:17Z phoe: that's the way I'd approach it; maybe with a custom metaclass for transient slots if I ever need those, and the equality predicate being a GF so I can define custom methods if I need those 2021-03-13T13:03:55Z phoe: but as _death and White_Flame already wrote, equality is not a well-defined term so there's no well-defined solution; you'll need to suit yourself 2021-03-13T13:04:21Z SumoSud0 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-13T13:04:21Z stux|RC quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-13T13:04:21Z cg505_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-13T13:04:21Z dim quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-13T13:04:22Z gabc quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-13T13:04:22Z cpape`` quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-13T13:04:22Z shinohai quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-13T13:04:22Z sukaeto1 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-13T13:04:22Z jxy_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-13T13:04:22Z guaqua_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-13T13:04:22Z Patternmaster quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-13T13:04:23Z lonjil quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-13T13:04:23Z jealousmonk quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-13T13:04:23Z mrSpec quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-13T13:04:23Z cross quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-13T13:04:23Z tgbugs quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-13T13:04:23Z grfn quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-13T13:04:23Z Mandus quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-13T13:04:23Z tychoish quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-13T13:04:23Z yottabyte quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-13T13:04:23Z XachX quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-13T13:04:24Z srji quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-13T13:04:24Z glamas quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-13T13:04:24Z |3b| quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-13T13:04:24Z jgkamat quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-13T13:04:24Z eagleflo quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-13T13:06:03Z guaqua joined #lisp 2021-03-13T13:06:03Z gabc_ joined #lisp 2021-03-13T13:06:03Z Mandus joined #lisp 2021-03-13T13:06:03Z lonjil2 joined #lisp 2021-03-13T13:06:03Z glamas joined #lisp 2021-03-13T13:06:03Z eagleflo joined #lisp 2021-03-13T13:06:03Z shinohai_ joined #lisp 2021-03-13T13:06:03Z cpape``` joined #lisp 2021-03-13T13:06:03Z srji joined #lisp 2021-03-13T13:06:03Z Patternmaster joined #lisp 2021-03-13T13:06:03Z jxy joined #lisp 2021-03-13T13:06:03Z sukaeto1 joined #lisp 2021-03-13T13:06:03Z tgbugs joined #lisp 2021-03-13T13:06:03Z XachX joined #lisp 2021-03-13T13:06:03Z yottabyte joined #lisp 2021-03-13T13:06:03Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2021-03-13T13:06:03Z grfn joined #lisp 2021-03-13T13:06:03Z jealousmonk joined #lisp 2021-03-13T13:06:03Z cross joined #lisp 2021-03-13T13:06:03Z stux|RC joined #lisp 2021-03-13T13:06:03Z mrSpec is now known as Guest14581 2021-03-13T13:06:03Z cg505 joined #lisp 2021-03-13T13:06:03Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-13T13:06:04Z thijso quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-13T13:06:04Z |3b| joined #lisp 2021-03-13T13:06:04Z pranavats: Thank you phoe 2021-03-13T13:06:04Z tychoish joined #lisp 2021-03-13T13:06:08Z jgkamat joined #lisp 2021-03-13T13:06:44Z dim joined #lisp 2021-03-13T13:06:46Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-03-13T13:07:15Z _death: you may also want to make use of slot-boundp first ;) 2021-03-13T13:07:19Z phoe: and this is going to break the moment you try to descend into slots of an object that is not meant to be compared in such a way; hence, ideally, you control all standard objects that you compare, or you trust that the users of your code follow some comparison protocol that you establish and leave that to them 2021-03-13T13:07:34Z phoe: oh right, there's the case of two slots that are unbound 2021-03-13T13:07:45Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-13T13:07:47Z phoe: which opens another can of worms 2021-03-13T13:07:57Z _death: and then, the slot could be lazily initialized, so again it's not a general answer 2021-03-13T13:08:15Z phoe: do we treat those as "equally unbound" or do we treat those as "SQL NULL is never equal to another NULL" 2021-03-13T13:08:24Z phoe: lots of ways to get burned 2021-03-13T13:08:26Z SumoSud0 joined #lisp 2021-03-13T13:08:27Z _death: and then, the slot may disappear at some point, because the value will become computed.. 2021-03-13T13:08:52Z phoe: slot? you mean the class will be redefined or something? 2021-03-13T13:09:01Z phoe: or do you mean the value will become unbound 2021-03-13T13:09:46Z White_Flame: or lazy initialization of clos slots might mean a slot dynamically appearing 2021-03-13T13:10:03Z _death: yeah, the class may be redefined for example.. yet it may still be true that the objects should be "equal" 2021-03-13T13:10:24Z phoe: that's yet another can of worms :D 2021-03-13T13:10:31Z phoe: nope, I'm not touching this one 2021-03-13T13:10:34Z phoe afk 2021-03-13T13:11:05Z White_Flame runs back to the relative safety of unification 2021-03-13T13:16:19Z thijso joined #lisp 2021-03-13T13:16:32Z drl_ joined #lisp 2021-03-13T13:16:45Z edgar-rft: maybe the universe will explode during the test... 2021-03-13T13:21:28Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-13T13:21:54Z drl_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-13T13:22:14Z drl_ joined #lisp 2021-03-13T13:23:57Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-13T13:33:28Z matryoshka joined #lisp 2021-03-13T13:35:21Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-13T13:35:30Z Nilby: Sometimes I think there should be a gc-equal which just compares the bits of what the gc would have to copy, but that's a surprisingly Very Heavy thing, especially if you have an object with some kind of *all-packages* value. 2021-03-13T13:38:53Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-13T13:39:31Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-13T13:46:43Z drl_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-13T13:48:09Z kaiwulf joined #lisp 2021-03-13T13:49:58Z _death: pequal returns the probability that two objects are equal 2021-03-13T13:57:07Z surabax joined #lisp 2021-03-13T14:00:24Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-13T14:14:20Z drl quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-13T14:15:28Z _death: it is conditional on the types, but otherwise assumes uniform distribution.. so for example, if passed two bignums it will return (/ (sq (- (- most-positive-bignum most-negative-bignum) (- most-positive-fixnum most-negative-fixnum)))) 2021-03-13T14:20:11Z Nilby: _death: You comments have a high probability of sending me on research rabbit hole 2021-03-13T14:20:39Z _death: what kind of research? 2021-03-13T14:21:03Z Nilby: probabilistic theorem provers this time 2021-03-13T14:21:31Z _death: ah.. then maybe dequal, which returns a probability distribution instead of a point probability, is better :) 2021-03-13T14:22:31Z Nilby: lol ... must .. not ... investigate 2021-03-13T14:22:52Z CrazyPython joined #lisp 2021-03-13T14:24:39Z gabc_ is now known as gabc 2021-03-13T14:27:41Z Noisytoot quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-13T14:28:29Z Noisytoot joined #lisp 2021-03-13T14:35:57Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2021-03-13T14:36:56Z drl joined #lisp 2021-03-13T14:42:46Z _death: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2343#2343 2021-03-13T14:43:40Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2021-03-13T14:44:21Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp 2021-03-13T14:45:00Z _jrjsmrtn quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-13T14:47:29Z Josh_2: Good Afternoon 2021-03-13T14:52:35Z nullx002 joined #lisp 2021-03-13T14:53:48Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-03-13T14:54:13Z kevingal_ joined #lisp 2021-03-13T14:55:32Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-03-13T15:05:06Z CrazyPython quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-13T15:05:30Z kslt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-13T15:14:06Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-13T15:15:44Z Guest14581 quit (Changing host) 2021-03-13T15:15:44Z Guest14581 joined #lisp 2021-03-13T15:16:00Z Guest14581 is now known as mrSpec 2021-03-13T15:16:12Z long4mud quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-13T15:32:34Z drmeister: Hey lispers - I'm implementing save-lisp-and-die in clasp and I have a question. 2021-03-13T15:33:25Z drmeister: Does it make sense to provide a facility where the programmer can register callbacks that get called at image-save time to clear dynamic variables and shutdown things so that when the image is loaded they can be lazily recreated. It does right? 2021-03-13T15:34:52Z McParen joined #lisp 2021-03-13T15:37:37Z Nilby: I think so. Also asdf has *image-dump-hook* 2021-03-13T15:38:21Z Nilby: oh and sbcl has *save-hooks* or something 2021-03-13T15:38:57Z splittist: uiop's generalisation of image-saving might be worth a look 2021-03-13T15:39:29Z Stanley00 quit 2021-03-13T15:42:04Z pyx joined #lisp 2021-03-13T15:42:28Z pyx quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-13T15:42:30Z drmeister: That is helpful - thank you. 2021-03-13T15:43:10Z drl quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-13T15:44:58Z kaiwulf quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-13T15:45:47Z phoe: flip214: _death: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/alexandria/alexandria/-/merge_requests/21 2021-03-13T15:47:59Z flip214: phoe: does the comment about sharing storage with old list items no longer hold? 2021-03-13T15:48:27Z phoe: flip214: I'm just a messenger, it's _death commit :D 2021-03-13T15:48:42Z flip214: _death: ^^ 2021-03-13T15:49:43Z drmeister: I've added to Clasp the ability to debug JITted code within GDB and LLDB. 2021-03-13T15:50:05Z drmeister: This lets me use the time-traveling debugger "Undo" to debug Common Lisp and C++. 2021-03-13T15:50:20Z klltkr quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-13T15:50:31Z drmeister: It's been invaluable for debugging image save/load. 2021-03-13T15:50:59Z CrazyPython joined #lisp 2021-03-13T15:53:21Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-13T15:55:58Z VeeBoi joined #lisp 2021-03-13T15:57:46Z phoe: easye: boop 2021-03-13T16:00:53Z Necktwi quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-13T16:04:44Z supercoven joined #lisp 2021-03-13T16:06:12Z CrazyPython quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-13T16:07:37Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-13T16:11:02Z VeeBoi quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-13T16:11:38Z andreyorst joined #lisp 2021-03-13T16:12:52Z phoe: Xach: I think you'd like to join #quicklisp 2021-03-13T16:13:32Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-03-13T16:14:25Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-13T16:15:29Z renzhi joined #lisp 2021-03-13T16:18:11Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-13T16:19:29Z attila_lendvai_ joined #lisp 2021-03-13T16:20:52Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-13T16:22:47Z Vra joined #lisp 2021-03-13T16:25:28Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-13T16:26:08Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-13T16:26:22Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2021-03-13T16:27:27Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-13T16:28:23Z Vra is now known as zomq 2021-03-13T16:29:49Z nullx002 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-13T16:29:53Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-03-13T16:32:57Z rickygee quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-13T16:36:02Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-13T16:41:33Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-13T16:43:41Z nullx002 joined #lisp 2021-03-13T16:55:25Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-03-13T17:01:14Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-13T17:09:55Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-13T17:09:55Z engblom quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-13T17:10:21Z engblom joined #lisp 2021-03-13T17:14:55Z nullx002 quit (Quit: qicr for android: faster and better) 2021-03-13T17:15:43Z long4mud joined #lisp 2021-03-13T17:16:07Z CrazyPython joined #lisp 2021-03-13T17:19:13Z davisr quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-13T17:25:14Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-13T17:25:31Z v0|d joined #lisp 2021-03-13T17:27:06Z v0|d: any update regarding els2021? 2021-03-13T17:27:38Z v0|d: heisig around? 2021-03-13T17:38:25Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-03-13T17:39:46Z elusive joined #lisp 2021-03-13T17:42:10Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-03-13T17:43:22Z zomq quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-13T17:44:07Z Sheilong joined #lisp 2021-03-13T17:47:39Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-13T17:48:21Z matryoshka quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-13T17:48:53Z ldb quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-13T17:56:23Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-13T18:03:33Z klltkr joined #lisp 2021-03-13T18:07:26Z Vra joined #lisp 2021-03-13T18:10:15Z waleee-cl joined #lisp 2021-03-13T18:15:26Z random-nick quit (Quit: quit) 2021-03-13T18:19:33Z kaiwulf joined #lisp 2021-03-13T18:21:37Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-03-13T18:22:07Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-13T18:28:07Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-13T18:33:02Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-13T18:36:58Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-13T18:37:37Z flip214: does someone have a PostgreSQL check constraint => common lisp converter lying around? is something useful for that in PGLOADER? 2021-03-13T18:38:27Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2021-03-13T18:45:42Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-03-13T18:53:34Z warweasle quit (Quit: gotta run) 2021-03-13T18:56:46Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-03-13T19:00:37Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-13T19:01:07Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-13T19:02:02Z Vra quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-13T19:05:23Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-13T19:06:31Z McParen left #lisp 2021-03-13T19:06:40Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-13T19:06:51Z rixard quit 2021-03-13T19:09:04Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-13T19:09:09Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2021-03-13T19:09:30Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-13T19:14:16Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-13T19:14:16Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-13T19:14:26Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-13T19:14:55Z rixard joined #lisp 2021-03-13T19:16:13Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-13T19:16:14Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-13T19:16:49Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-13T19:19:09Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-13T19:19:22Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-13T19:21:18Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-13T19:22:53Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-13T19:24:50Z yitzi quit (Quit: yitzi) 2021-03-13T19:25:12Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-13T19:26:17Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-13T19:30:53Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-13T19:31:57Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-13T19:32:15Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2021-03-13T19:35:58Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-13T19:36:48Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-13T19:40:29Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-13T19:40:58Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-13T19:40:59Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-13T19:41:13Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-13T19:41:25Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-13T19:44:07Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-13T19:45:42Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-13T19:46:23Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-13T19:47:07Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-13T19:49:50Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-03-13T19:49:50Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-13T19:50:15Z karlosz quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-13T19:50:22Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-13T19:51:30Z corpix joined #lisp 2021-03-13T19:51:31Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-13T19:51:59Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-13T19:52:21Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-13T19:52:21Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-13T19:52:39Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-13T19:53:02Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-13T19:54:40Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-13T19:58:40Z corpix quit (Quit: corpix) 2021-03-13T19:58:40Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-13T19:58:56Z corpix joined #lisp 2021-03-13T19:59:24Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-13T20:05:50Z attila_lendvai_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-13T20:15:40Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-13T20:15:59Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-13T20:16:06Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-13T20:16:13Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-13T20:17:05Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-13T20:17:05Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-13T20:17:47Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-13T20:28:30Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-13T20:29:31Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-13T20:30:49Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-13T20:31:09Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-13T20:33:10Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-13T20:33:19Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-13T20:37:06Z bendersteed joined #lisp 2021-03-13T20:43:17Z gitgood joined #lisp 2021-03-13T20:43:33Z tinhatcat joined #lisp 2021-03-13T20:43:58Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-13T20:48:27Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-13T20:48:27Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-13T20:48:49Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-13T20:49:12Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-13T20:54:44Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-13T20:59:16Z sm2n quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-13T21:04:18Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-13T21:09:36Z tinhatcat quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-13T21:09:57Z sm2n joined #lisp 2021-03-13T21:12:56Z _death: phoe: hmm, not sure what that has to do with my commit? 2021-03-13T21:15:10Z Jesin joined #lisp 2021-03-13T21:15:14Z Vra joined #lisp 2021-03-13T21:15:52Z Jesin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-13T21:16:50Z _death: flip214: I removed that part of the sentence because it was redundant (you expect that with destructive operators) and a bit poorly worded (and contained a typo) 2021-03-13T21:17:28Z bendersteed quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-13T21:20:01Z Jesin joined #lisp 2021-03-13T21:20:37Z Jesin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-13T21:21:36Z bendersteed joined #lisp 2021-03-13T21:22:19Z aartaka_d quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-13T21:23:10Z Jesin joined #lisp 2021-03-13T21:26:46Z Jesin quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-13T21:27:50Z Jesin joined #lisp 2021-03-13T21:30:33Z ficl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-13T21:34:14Z tiwEllien quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-13T21:34:51Z tiwEllien joined #lisp 2021-03-13T21:51:33Z supercoven quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-13T21:53:57Z phoe: _death: this is your commit that was cherrypicked onto clnet, that's all 2021-03-13T21:55:36Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-13T21:57:05Z _death: phoe: oh, ok.. I took it you linked some comment about the test results so I didn't understand 2021-03-13T21:57:16Z phoe: nope, just mentioned the cherrypick 2021-03-13T21:57:26Z phoe: tests all seem to pass, the test framework does not complain. 2021-03-13T21:59:13Z warweasle joined #lisp 2021-03-13T22:01:33Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-13T22:06:39Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-13T22:16:28Z theruran quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-13T22:17:53Z FennecCode quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-13T22:24:42Z FennecCode joined #lisp 2021-03-13T22:32:43Z theruran joined #lisp 2021-03-13T22:39:14Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-13T22:41:24Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-13T22:56:29Z pve quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-13T23:05:08Z drmeister: I have image save/load working now in Clasp - with the boehm garbage collector. 2021-03-13T23:06:49Z cosimone quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 28.0.50)) 2021-03-13T23:07:19Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-13T23:07:23Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-13T23:15:47Z rpg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-13T23:24:13Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-13T23:30:57Z Vra quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-13T23:31:56Z elusive quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-13T23:36:00Z curtosis[away] joined #lisp 2021-03-13T23:36:31Z bendersteed quit (Quit: bye) 2021-03-13T23:41:20Z kslt1 joined #lisp 2021-03-13T23:43:25Z kslt1 quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-13T23:49:13Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-13T23:56:13Z corpix quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-13T23:56:30Z corpix joined #lisp 2021-03-13T23:56:36Z curtosis[away] quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-13T23:56:55Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-03-14T00:03:47Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-14T00:03:47Z terpri joined #lisp 2021-03-14T00:09:45Z remexre: why is there the ominous "If you’re suicidal or extremely confident, just use :validate t." warning on uiop:delete-directory-tree 2021-03-14T00:10:50Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-14T00:15:30Z moon-child: cuz rm -rf / is scary 2021-03-14T00:16:29Z remexre: is the intention that you'd pass a function that disallows /, then? 2021-03-14T00:18:10Z remexre: though, looks like on sbcl or ccl it can't delete / anyway 2021-03-14T00:18:26Z remexre: because it shells out to rm -rf, and that'd need --no-preserve-root 2021-03-14T00:18:28Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-14T00:18:48Z moon-child: / is just a stand-in. The point is you can do a lot of damage by accident deleting an entire directory tree 2021-03-14T00:20:05Z thatpythonboy joined #lisp 2021-03-14T00:20:16Z thatpythonboy: :foo vs :(foo) is it same 2021-03-14T00:24:11Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-14T00:24:57Z moon-child: thatpythonboy: as far as I know, :(foo) is invalid 2021-03-14T00:28:37Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-14T00:28:44Z mfiano: rm -rf / hasn't been a thing to be scared of for about 15 years now 2021-03-14T00:29:30Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-14T00:30:45Z warweasle: rm -rf /home/mfiano 2021-03-14T00:31:19Z mfiano: That would do some damage, but / wouldn't (as per the default behavior in coreutils for a while now) 2021-03-14T00:31:36Z moon-child: mfiano: on linux it needs --no-preserve-root, but there is no such affordance for (uiop:delete-directory-tree #P"/" :validate t) 2021-03-14T00:31:38Z warweasle: I did not know that. 2021-03-14T00:37:03Z akoana joined #lisp 2021-03-14T00:39:38Z evilmischief[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-14T00:40:05Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-14T00:42:55Z grobe0ba quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-14T00:43:06Z grobe0ba joined #lisp 2021-03-14T00:43:49Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-14T00:45:52Z evilmischief[m] is now known as Theora[m] 2021-03-14T00:50:42Z really2 joined #lisp 2021-03-14T00:52:31Z elusive joined #lisp 2021-03-14T00:54:26Z kevingal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-14T00:54:26Z kevingal_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-14T00:55:03Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-14T00:55:58Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-14T01:00:30Z really2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-14T01:06:08Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-14T01:07:13Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-14T01:17:37Z Tordek quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-14T01:20:38Z wooden quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-14T01:23:51Z random-nick quit (Quit: quit) 2021-03-14T01:25:57Z wooden joined #lisp 2021-03-14T01:29:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-14T01:29:26Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-14T01:30:29Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-14T01:39:50Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-14T01:40:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-14T01:40:28Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-14T01:44:11Z curtosis[away] joined #lisp 2021-03-14T01:44:30Z cyraxjoe joined #lisp 2021-03-14T01:55:28Z thatpythonboy quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-14T02:02:38Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-14T02:02:38Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2021-03-14T02:02:38Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-14T02:03:52Z Tordek joined #lisp 2021-03-14T02:05:20Z curtosis[away] quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-14T02:22:14Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-14T02:28:44Z kingcons joined #lisp 2021-03-14T02:34:53Z jello_pudding joined #lisp 2021-03-14T02:34:54Z elusive quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-14T02:35:39Z carkh joined #lisp 2021-03-14T02:45:02Z warweasle quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 26.1) 2021-03-14T02:47:29Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2021-03-14T02:47:47Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-14T02:48:51Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2021-03-14T02:50:26Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-14T02:58:07Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-14T03:01:45Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-03-14T03:02:04Z CrazyPython quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-14T03:04:23Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-14T03:07:50Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-14T03:10:56Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-03-14T03:11:23Z semz joined #lisp 2021-03-14T03:12:52Z CrazyPython joined #lisp 2021-03-14T03:13:53Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-14T03:15:12Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-14T03:15:17Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-14T03:15:36Z dbotton quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-14T03:16:00Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-14T03:23:23Z CrazyPython quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-14T03:23:41Z john__ joined #lisp 2021-03-14T03:27:18Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-14T03:35:01Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-14T03:35:20Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-14T03:40:22Z curtosis joined #lisp 2021-03-14T03:46:14Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-14T03:47:28Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-14T03:52:09Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-14T03:56:56Z gitgoood joined #lisp 2021-03-14T03:59:58Z gitgood quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-14T04:00:28Z marusich quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-14T04:00:38Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2021-03-14T04:00:47Z curtosis quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-14T04:07:01Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-03-14T04:08:14Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-14T04:12:10Z hsmath joined #lisp 2021-03-14T04:13:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: morning, beach! 2021-03-14T04:23:54Z marusich joined #lisp 2021-03-14T04:28:03Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-14T04:33:27Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-14T04:33:30Z loli quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-14T04:37:37Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-14T04:40:58Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-14T04:52:24Z adlai joined #lisp 2021-03-14T04:52:40Z adlai: why does nobody want to maintain Anaphora 2021-03-14T04:53:47Z adlai: it's not as though fielding pull requests and WONTFIXing issues takes any more mental overhead than never checking a spam folder 2021-03-14T04:54:14Z adlai would rather maintain Anaphora than open a pull request on LOCAL-TIME, but apparently his homework is the latter 2021-03-14T04:54:28Z DateMasamune2000 joined #lisp 2021-03-14T04:54:36Z DateMasamune2000 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-14T04:54:53Z fe[nl]ix: adlai: go ahead and take it over. I doubt anyone will object 2021-03-14T04:58:28Z adlai wonders whether the library dependency graph has anything useful to say on the topic 2021-03-14T05:00:30Z adlai: fe[nl]ix: my primary objection is that I tend to stifle development, due to insufficient use of positive emoji. 2021-03-14T05:01:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-14T05:01:25Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-14T05:01:48Z adlai: possibly even due to indistinguishably using sarcasm, irony, and drunken rage; and this tends to make the social media (what else is GitHub these days !? ) less of an all-inclusive garden of children. 2021-03-14T05:03:03Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-14T05:04:17Z adlai: so while I honestly don't mind being the bad man who closes pull requests with "No, fuck off", and responds to issues with "Please redirect your sweet time towards the ANSI compliance tests, they are dying of unlove", that is probably not what the Common Lisp community needs in the twenty third decade or whenever this is. 2021-03-14T05:08:02Z adlai reads https://github.com/quickdocs/quickdocs/issues/47#issuecomment-701733021 and finally understood whince quickdocs 2021-03-14T05:09:33Z adlai: in other bad news: 2021-03-14T05:09:51Z adlai: [I repeat myself, intentionally] Henry Baker's paper archive has gone offline, apparently along with the entire webserver that hosted it. Wikipedia is already linking to https://web.archive.org/web/20200212080133/http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/ although I do wonder whether anyone has available an archive of just the signal, to save others the trouble of sifting through HTML noise 2021-03-14T05:18:04Z curtosis joined #lisp 2021-03-14T05:21:07Z fe[nl]ix: oh god, we need to preserve those 2021-03-14T05:26:52Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-14T05:31:55Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-14T05:33:09Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-03-14T05:34:11Z Bike quit (Quit: slpe) 2021-03-14T05:34:12Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2021-03-14T05:40:11Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-14T05:43:31Z curtosis quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-14T05:44:34Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-14T05:46:30Z john__ is now known as gaqwas 2021-03-14T05:46:33Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2021-03-14T05:46:33Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-14T05:48:08Z edgar-rft quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-14T05:50:00Z _Ark_ quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-14T05:51:15Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2021-03-14T05:53:50Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-14T06:01:34Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-14T06:02:20Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-14T06:04:39Z paul0 joined #lisp 2021-03-14T06:07:10Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-14T06:07:56Z klltkr quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2021-03-14T06:08:04Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-14T06:08:49Z _paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-14T06:09:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-14T06:09:26Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-14T06:11:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-14T06:11:28Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-14T06:13:34Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-14T06:18:52Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-14T06:19:42Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-14T06:21:51Z Sheilong quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-14T06:38:03Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-14T06:38:22Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-14T06:52:38Z lottaquestions_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-14T06:53:03Z lottaquestions_ joined #lisp 2021-03-14T06:53:37Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-14T06:57:20Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-03-14T06:58:24Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-03-14T07:02:02Z andrei-n joined #lisp 2021-03-14T07:02:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-14T07:02:28Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-14T07:04:28Z sabrac quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-14T07:06:01Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-03-14T07:17:57Z Necktwi joined #lisp 2021-03-14T07:19:31Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-14T07:22:42Z ym joined #lisp 2021-03-14T07:23:05Z ym is now known as Guest43156 2021-03-14T07:24:30Z Guest43156 quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-14T07:34:00Z ym_ joined #lisp 2021-03-14T07:35:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: Anyone know of an effort to port CCL to the M1? 2021-03-14T07:36:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: I see some talk in the ccl mailing list about a fundraiser, but I haven't heard any announcements or such 2021-03-14T07:36:43Z ym_ quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-14T07:39:39Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-14T07:40:14Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-14T08:01:08Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-14T08:03:21Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-14T08:03:33Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-14T08:08:04Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-03-14T08:10:52Z hendursa1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-14T08:11:20Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-14T08:11:31Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-03-14T08:12:27Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-14T08:14:53Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-14T08:15:16Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-14T08:18:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-14T08:18:25Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-14T08:19:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-14T08:19:27Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-14T08:19:44Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2021-03-14T08:20:28Z digikar joined #lisp 2021-03-14T08:20:58Z digikar quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-14T08:22:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: I copied Henry Baker's site from the Internet Archive and pushed it up here: https://mega.nz/folder/RcwVyAxB#wh0cYye2tIVHAL2vKGBixA 2021-03-14T08:23:19Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-14T08:23:43Z karlosz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-14T08:24:01Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-14T08:24:53Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-14T08:26:31Z akoana quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-14T08:28:33Z XachX quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds) 2021-03-14T08:28:36Z rme quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds) 2021-03-14T08:29:27Z palter quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds) 2021-03-14T08:37:30Z ccl-logbot joined #lisp 2021-03-14T08:37:30Z 2021-03-14T08:37:30Z names: ccl-logbot shifty dilated_dinosaur walex pve gzj hendursa1 Necktwi shka_ andrei-n toorevitimirp aartaka lottaquestions_ orivej paul0 edgar-rft adlai marusich hsmath pankajsg gitgoood contrapunctus semz Lord_of_Life carkh jello_pudding kingcons Tordek cyraxjoe wooden grobe0ba mindCrime_ Theora[m] terpri corpix amb007 theruran FennecCode tiwEllien Jesin sm2n anticrisis vaporatorius rixard gigetoo kaiwulf v0|d long4mud engblom notzmv renzhi ljavorsk andreyorst 2021-03-14T08:37:30Z names: __jrjsmrtn__ Noisytoot thijso SumoSud0 dim jgkamat tychoish |3b| cg505 stux|RC cross jealousmonk grfn mrSpec yottabyte tgbugs XachX sukaeto1 jxy Patternmaster srji cpape``` shinohai_ eagleflo glamas lonjil2 Mandus gabc guaqua frodef Cthulhux vegansbane6963 zaquest sauvin _whitelogger madage Alfr pyc hineios isoraqathedh aindilis mgr_ Grauwolf zupss Khisanth Demosthe1ex epony ukari scymtym hiroaki thecoffemaker flazh rdd perrier-jouet mathrick_ wigust 2021-03-14T08:37:30Z names: zymurgy recalloc gabiruh mrchampion jurov APic hhdave_ asdflkj saturn2 lowryder sxmx vsync travv0 sunwukong ggoes xlei troydm bmansurov Trieste Ekho brandonz snits brass save-lisp-or-die jfb4_ gensym rigidus datajerk daniel1302 Kabriel_ ferada_ matthewcroughan_ Ankhers SAL9000 aap nydel1 mtd___ HDurer_ hvxgr_ malm dvdmuckle z0d mtd_ tmf_ bkst_ luis samebchase- voidlily yonkunas emacsomancer pokes_ midre X-Scale tessier jonathan- kini Firedancer_ idxu 2021-03-14T08:37:30Z names: specbot minion Gromboli cognemo_ bugrum mgsk ft vhost- gpiero froggey amk flip214 Xach pacon Lord_Nightmare copec madand_ IPmonger_ casual_friday HiRE NULLean deltab ffwacom splittist mjl pranavats harlchen[m] ey[m]1 cloudy[m] equwal sepanko_ ms[m] dmiles[m] quanta[m] deselby MrtnDk[m] loke[m] ThaEwat infra_red[m] arcontethegreat[ dieggsy susam etimmons Gnuxie[m] katco kreyren even4void[m] arichiardi[m] fitzsim jackdaniel fengshaun shenghi gingerale 2021-03-14T08:37:30Z names: moon-child mseddon elflng teej hvxgr hiroaki1 terrorjack beach CrazyEddy dtman34 bjorkintosh hdasch micro _death nullman Posterdati d4ryus Juonu Nikotiini fouric [df] leo_song_ albusp White_Flame nitrix antoszka ramus_ cods ecraven borodust astronavt___ dddddd dyelar nmg SlashLife drewc joast cpt_nemo summerisle femi Oddity spacebat2 housel jerme_ GreaseMonkey gko Guest19918 avicenna lukego johs physpi luna_is_here gendl seisatsu drdo chewbranca mpontillo 2021-03-14T08:37:30Z names: p_l sgithens ilmu eschatologist ck_ add^_ jprajzne phantomics p9fn oldtopman Blkt ioa cartwright frgo theBlackDragon totoro2021 xantoz v3ga thonkpod_ jrm acolarh Kingsy grumble madnificent lieven Fade Aurora_v_kosmose OlCe Colleen swflint dale krjt xristos felideon shrysr_ phoe kim_ plisp1 beaky CEnnis91 stylewarning drmeister bytesighs dnm billstclair griffinbyatt mgxm buoy49 Balooga rme jmercouris Grue`` gum MetaYan pok zigpaw10 himmAllRight kbtr_ jbgg 2021-03-14T08:37:30Z names: stux|RC-only fiddlerwoaroof azrazalea docl penguwin herlocks- TMA loke`` nightfly gabot mister_m eMBee akkad knobo easye keja_ aeth larme banjiewen__ em AdmiralBumbleBee interruptinuse shoshin entel zooey @fe[nl]ix nopf Guest99088 palter Krystof davros zxq2 spxy alandipert ravndal chrpape jibanes KeyboardWorrier Yardanico sbryant devrtz_ justinmcp joga nullheroes greeb markasoftware remexre ineiros_ ski bonz060 spal mgsk_ Iolo hiredman diamondbond cyberlard 2021-03-14T08:37:30Z names: phadthai lavaflow alfred181 pent jasom xi trn sebboh ozzloy Papa gaze__ conjunctive jsatk russell-- jdz selwyn patrixl matijja Ziemas rvirding mr_yogurt parisienne jackhill samebchase nckx creat tomaw rotty mood jlpeters winny mfiano dunk alanz 2021-03-14T08:41:56Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-14T08:42:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-14T08:42:25Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-14T08:42:52Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-14T08:42:52Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-14T08:48:59Z supercoven joined #lisp 2021-03-14T08:49:47Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-14T08:53:10Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2021-03-14T08:56:02Z heisig joined #lisp 2021-03-14T09:00:03Z deselby quit (Quit: Idle for 30+ days) 2021-03-14T09:01:14Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-14T09:02:02Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-14T09:09:38Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-14T09:10:39Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-14T09:23:16Z surabax joined #lisp 2021-03-14T09:24:50Z aggin joined #lisp 2021-03-14T09:26:04Z oxum joined #lisp 2021-03-14T09:26:13Z aggin: what's the better indendation: https://pastebin.com/3c7jA4cG 2021-03-14T09:27:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: aggin: both look wrong 2021-03-14T09:28:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://pastebin.com/d5t8mD0V 2021-03-14T09:28:35Z jdz: aggin: Don't use tabs. 2021-03-14T09:28:44Z aggin: yeah I think that's because of tabs 2021-03-14T09:29:20Z aggin: looks just like what fiddlerwoaroof sent in emacs 2021-03-14T09:29:31Z tweet[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-14T09:29:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: As far as newlines go, I've found it's a good idea to put a newline between each argument, if the arguments are "complicated" 2021-03-14T09:30:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, (+ 1 2 3) is fine, but (+ 1\n(+ 2 3)\n(+ 3 4)) 2021-03-14T09:30:53Z aggin: so do you think the IF statement had to be separated on different lines ? 2021-03-14T09:31:07Z aggin: that k looks lonely over there :( 2021-03-14T09:31:25Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-03-14T09:31:33Z jdz: Use a proper descriptive name for the variable. 2021-03-14T09:31:37Z jdz: Both k and v. 2021-03-14T09:31:52Z jdz: And rename lst to list. 2021-03-14T09:31:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, putting the whole if expression on a single line makes my head hurt :) 2021-03-14T09:32:54Z jdz: aggin: Also you maybe mean NOT instead of NULL in the conditional. 2021-03-14T09:33:20Z aggin: oh yeah, I could've used NOT instead 2021-03-14T09:33:27Z beach: aggin: The only place where Common Lisp has "statements" is inside a TAGBODY. Usually, an expression meant to be evaluated is called a "form". 2021-03-14T09:35:50Z jdz: aggin: Looks like jsown:val-safe returns a generalized boolean (it does not end in -p). Does it return the same value as jsown:val if the value is "safe"? In that case you should use let to bind the result of jsown:val-safe. 2021-03-14T09:36:30Z aggin: jdz: yeah it returns the same value as jsown:val when it's safe 2021-03-14T09:37:12Z aggin: what would you recommend the name of the var I bind it to ? 2021-03-14T09:37:41Z aggin: display-name ? 2021-03-14T09:37:50Z jdz: value? 2021-03-14T09:39:03Z jdz: Like this: https://pastebin.com/MR39ENWB 2021-03-14T09:39:59Z aggin: got it 2021-03-14T09:40:45Z aggin quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-14T09:51:44Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-14T09:52:20Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-14T09:55:44Z kslt1 joined #lisp 2021-03-14T09:57:59Z texno joined #lisp 2021-03-14T10:00:06Z vegansbane6963 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-03-14T10:01:16Z long4mud quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-14T10:03:23Z Oddity quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-14T10:03:50Z Oddity joined #lisp 2021-03-14T10:13:38Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-03-14T10:23:55Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-14T10:26:12Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-14T10:29:21Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-14T10:30:08Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-03-14T10:31:52Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-14T10:44:00Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-14T10:56:02Z ficl joined #lisp 2021-03-14T10:58:41Z mm[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-14T11:02:39Z jurov quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-14T11:03:03Z jurov joined #lisp 2021-03-14T11:10:39Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-14T11:11:51Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-14T11:12:36Z VincentVega joined #lisp 2021-03-14T11:12:58Z Demosthe1ex is now known as Demosthenex 2021-03-14T11:13:42Z AussieBoy joined #lisp 2021-03-14T11:15:00Z AussieBoy left #lisp 2021-03-14T11:15:06Z AussieBoy joined #lisp 2021-03-14T11:18:04Z terpri_ joined #lisp 2021-03-14T11:19:50Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-14T11:21:42Z VincentVega: Is there some moral equivalent of something that would be defmethod defclass :after? I need to do some external setup for certain classes which depends on the class metadata. So when the class is redefined in any way, I want to redo that setup. Superclass changes also count. At which MOP functions should I be looking at?. 2021-03-14T11:29:33Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-14T11:29:55Z dhil joined #lisp 2021-03-14T11:30:40Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-14T11:30:40Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2021-03-14T11:30:40Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-14T11:31:21Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-14T11:36:52Z phoe: equivalent, what do you mean? 2021-03-14T11:37:03Z phoe: oh, you want to do something when a class is redefined 2021-03-14T11:37:07Z phoe: mop ensure-class-using-class 2021-03-14T11:37:07Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/ensure-class-using-class.html 2021-03-14T11:42:32Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-14T11:44:52Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-14T11:48:33Z VincentVega: phoe: that looks promising, but I am not sure why nothing prints here https://pastebin.com/2B0xx7D4 2021-03-14T11:49:58Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-03-14T11:50:38Z VincentVega: *me has to leave for a bit, but I'll be back soon! 2021-03-14T11:52:30Z long4mud joined #lisp 2021-03-14T11:53:02Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-14T11:56:25Z phoe: use an eql specializer 2021-03-14T11:56:40Z phoe: you need to pass an object that is the class S and not an object *of* class S 2021-03-14T11:58:13Z phoe: s/need to pass/are passing an/ 2021-03-14T12:03:45Z Odin- joined #lisp 2021-03-14T12:07:04Z kslt1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-14T12:07:11Z kenran joined #lisp 2021-03-14T12:08:02Z AussieBoy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-14T12:08:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-14T12:08:25Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-14T12:10:44Z elflng quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-14T12:12:32Z kslt1 joined #lisp 2021-03-14T12:13:23Z kenran_ joined #lisp 2021-03-14T12:14:20Z elflng joined #lisp 2021-03-14T12:16:48Z terrorjack quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-14T12:17:29Z kenran quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-03-14T12:20:05Z terrorjack joined #lisp 2021-03-14T12:39:32Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-03-14T12:39:47Z kslt1 quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-14T12:40:09Z carkh quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-14T12:48:57Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-14T12:49:32Z varjagg joined #lisp 2021-03-14T12:50:03Z greeb quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-14T12:50:08Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-14T12:50:12Z freshmaker666 joined #lisp 2021-03-14T12:50:12Z freshmaker666 quit (Changing host) 2021-03-14T12:50:12Z freshmaker666 joined #lisp 2021-03-14T12:50:22Z elflng quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-14T12:50:37Z rdd` joined #lisp 2021-03-14T12:50:40Z elflng joined #lisp 2021-03-14T12:50:53Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-14T12:50:53Z rdd quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-14T12:51:18Z ineiros_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-14T12:51:18Z zaquest quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-14T12:52:13Z ineiros joined #lisp 2021-03-14T12:52:58Z kslt1 joined #lisp 2021-03-14T12:58:02Z Lycurgus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-14T13:01:26Z VincentVega: phoe: Thanks, that got it working now! 2021-03-14T13:02:58Z kenran_ quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-03-14T13:03:08Z kenran joined #lisp 2021-03-14T13:07:24Z hsmath quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-14T13:08:06Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-14T13:08:29Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-14T13:09:06Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-14T13:09:24Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-03-14T13:09:29Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-14T13:09:30Z mathrick_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-14T13:10:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-14T13:10:26Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-14T13:12:06Z gzj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-14T13:12:27Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-14T13:13:07Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-14T13:13:29Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-14T13:14:22Z mathrick_ joined #lisp 2021-03-14T13:16:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-14T13:24:01Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-14T13:24:40Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-14T13:26:09Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2021-03-14T13:26:46Z tiwEllien quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-14T13:30:41Z rogersm quit 2021-03-14T13:37:59Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-14T13:38:48Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-14T13:40:45Z ficl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-14T13:42:33Z phoe: <3 2021-03-14T13:45:50Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-03-14T13:46:48Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-14T13:53:59Z gaqwas quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-14T13:54:10Z Xach: phoe: what did I miss? 2021-03-14T13:54:11Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-14T13:54:11Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2021-03-14T13:54:11Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-14T13:56:45Z corpix_ joined #lisp 2021-03-14T13:57:17Z corpix quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-14T13:58:57Z phoe: Xach: on #quicklisp? nothing other than me reposting this PGP gist that almost got lost in the sands of time 2021-03-14T14:00:52Z corpix_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-14T14:01:03Z corpix joined #lisp 2021-03-14T14:10:07Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-14T14:12:22Z Xach: what gist? 2021-03-14T14:12:29Z Tordek quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-14T14:15:30Z tiwEllien joined #lisp 2021-03-14T14:17:55Z saganman joined #lisp 2021-03-14T14:31:39Z entel quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-14T14:34:00Z Xach perishes from suspense 2021-03-14T14:34:39Z beach: Xach: I think you may be talking about two different things. 2021-03-14T14:34:56Z phoe: Xach: https://gist.github.com/phoe/8ccba5fd13e6ab53b1b19922f3868b34 2021-03-14T14:35:35Z saganman: hey beach, how is the research going? 2021-03-14T14:36:17Z Xach: phoe: thanks 2021-03-14T14:37:37Z beach: Hello saganman. Quite well thank you. I guess it peaked a bit a week or so ago when I submitted this paper to ELS: http://metamodular.com/SICL/call-site-optimization.pdf Since then, I have been working on register allocation for SICL/x86. If my technique for register allocation works out, it may be publishable some day. 2021-03-14T14:38:02Z beach: saganman: What about your work? 2021-03-14T14:38:50Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-03-14T14:38:50Z saganman: beach: I remember you were working on bootstrap or boot section or something. 2021-03-14T14:40:27Z beach: saganman: The SICL bootstrapping procedure is pretty much working, but there are a few elements missing, and I am re-working the MIR-to-LIR phase with better register allocation. Also, the technique in that paper changed a bit the different phases, so I am adapting them. 2021-03-14T14:41:57Z saganman: nice beach, I remember you were working on that for like over a year 2021-03-14T14:42:27Z beach: Oh yes. It's the essence of SICL, so it must be worked on. 2021-03-14T14:43:11Z saganman: My business is good. Almost completed last project so I have loads of money literally. The clc manufacturing industry has run into some problems. 2021-03-14T14:43:40Z beach: Excellent! 2021-03-14T14:43:58Z kenran quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-14T14:53:32Z warweasle joined #lisp 2021-03-14T14:55:22Z VincentVega quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-14T14:55:56Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-14T14:59:48Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2021-03-14T15:01:51Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-14T15:04:15Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-14T15:04:46Z CrazyPython joined #lisp 2021-03-14T15:05:44Z CrazyPython quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-14T15:07:26Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-14T15:10:23Z rogersm quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-14T15:18:00Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-14T15:18:12Z Tordek joined #lisp 2021-03-14T15:24:11Z Sheilong joined #lisp 2021-03-14T15:28:33Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-14T15:30:43Z kenran joined #lisp 2021-03-14T15:34:58Z texno quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-14T15:36:09Z texno joined #lisp 2021-03-14T15:38:39Z Josh_2: Afternoon 2021-03-14T15:40:40Z waleee-cl joined #lisp 2021-03-14T15:53:40Z aindilis` joined #lisp 2021-03-14T15:53:57Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-14T15:58:09Z kaiwulf quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-14T15:59:39Z long4mud quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-14T16:01:00Z shinohai_ is now known as shinohai 2021-03-14T16:01:27Z CrazyPython joined #lisp 2021-03-14T16:04:48Z curtosis joined #lisp 2021-03-14T16:05:13Z drdee joined #lisp 2021-03-14T16:05:17Z iekfkk joined #lisp 2021-03-14T16:10:22Z iekfkk: isn't code using macros hard to debug 2021-03-14T16:10:27Z iekfkk: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M4_(computer_language) 2021-03-14T16:10:35Z iekfkk: m4 has many uses in code generation, but (as with any macro processor) problems can be hard to debug.[3] 2021-03-14T16:16:55Z long4mud joined #lisp 2021-03-14T16:17:08Z recalloc quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-14T16:20:38Z cpape``` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3)) 2021-03-14T16:20:55Z cpape joined #lisp 2021-03-14T16:23:03Z beach: iekfkk: It depends on the kind of macro system you have. 2021-03-14T16:23:16Z iekfkk: CL? 2021-03-14T16:23:18Z beach: iekfkk: If it is just textual substitution, then, yes, things are hard. 2021-03-14T16:23:40Z beach: Common Lisp macros work on the internal representation of code, which is much much better. 2021-03-14T16:24:03Z beach: The feature that makes that possible is called homoiconicity. 2021-03-14T16:24:10Z iekfkk is now known as pcre 2021-03-14T16:25:30Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-03-14T16:25:39Z beach: pcre: Now, code using macros is intrinsically harder to understand than code using functions, because the evaluation rule can be different for each macro. And that is why Common Lisp programmers should use functions whenever the problem is such that the semantics of function calls works. 2021-03-14T16:26:05Z beach: pcre: What is the reason for your question? 2021-03-14T16:26:30Z pcre: should i use macros and expect debugging to be easy 2021-03-14T16:26:44Z curtosis is now known as curtosis[away] 2021-03-14T16:26:51Z semz: this feels like a troll question 2021-03-14T16:27:11Z pcre: hmm maybe i am becoming retarded 2021-03-14T16:27:15Z beach: pcre: You should not use macros unless you need to introduce new (s-expression-level) syntax. 2021-03-14T16:27:26Z curtosis[away] quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-14T16:27:28Z beach: pcre: It is a common newbie error to overuse macros. 2021-03-14T16:28:25Z beach: pcre: Again, like I said, when the semantics of a function call is fine, then there is no reason to use a macro. 2021-03-14T16:30:16Z beach: pcre: Does that make sense to you? 2021-03-14T16:30:24Z pcre: ofc 2021-03-14T16:31:16Z beach: So when you read about how bad macros are, it is nearly always in the context of macros that do textual substitution, simply because the people writing such things for some reason like to ignore homoiconicity. 2021-03-14T16:31:35Z beach: pcre: As I often say, people go to a lot of trouble to avoid learning Common Lisp. 2021-03-14T16:34:05Z drdee quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-14T16:37:23Z really2 joined #lisp 2021-03-14T16:37:36Z pcre: why don't they reform sbcl to rival C 2021-03-14T16:39:04Z Xach: pcre: in what respect? 2021-03-14T16:39:17Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-14T16:39:33Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-14T16:39:43Z pcre: https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/fastest/sbcl-gpp.html 2021-03-14T16:40:56Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-14T16:41:17Z Xach: pcre: I don't think enough people care about benchmarks like that. 2021-03-14T16:41:32Z pcre: now julia https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/fastest/julia-sbcl.html 2021-03-14T16:41:52Z pcre: isn't julia too homoiconic 2021-03-14T16:42:08Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-14T16:43:25Z semz: the benchmark game isn't representative of much. the C and C++ is full of vector intrinsics, the haskell is "fortran in any language", serial programs get pitted against parallel programs... 2021-03-14T16:44:17Z aeth: plus, they've been fixed benchmarks for over a decade now, haven't they? So any language implementor can optimize those tasks in particular, for free advertising 2021-03-14T16:45:21Z pcre: semz: haskell is fortran? 2021-03-14T16:46:26Z aeth: pcre: semz is saying that the Haskell is written in Fortran style rather than in Haskell style 2021-03-14T16:46:31Z semz: ^ 2021-03-14T16:46:37Z semz: the haskell code is completely unidiomatic 2021-03-14T16:46:55Z saganman is now known as blackadder 2021-03-14T16:47:34Z really2 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-14T16:50:56Z pcre: C code too 2021-03-14T16:51:22Z pcre: except python all code seems very different 2021-03-14T16:51:24Z beach: pcre: What is your point? Are you trying to convince everyone here to abandon Common Lisp in favor of Julia and C++? 2021-03-14T16:51:45Z pcre: no C++, but julia too is homoiconic 2021-03-14T16:51:54Z beach: It doesn't look like it to me. 2021-03-14T16:52:54Z beach: Besides, homoiconicity is not the only reason that Common Lisp is a good programming language. 2021-03-14T16:53:44Z pcre: really? 2021-03-14T16:54:13Z beach: CLOS, the condition system. 2021-03-14T16:55:43Z beach: I don't know Julia, but I am looking at the manual, and I can't figure out why you say Julia is homoiconic. 2021-03-14T16:56:11Z pcre: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/31733766/in-what-sense-are-languages-like-elixir-and-julia-homoiconic 2021-03-14T16:56:45Z aeth: Julia is a language aimed at numerical/scientific computation in particular. That's not going to be too appealing to people who use general purpose programming languages for... general purpose stuff. You might as well be pitching R or MATLAB in here. 2021-03-14T16:57:00Z aeth: It is going to make it show up on benchmarks well, though 2021-03-14T16:57:05Z beach: pcre: That's pretty lame compared to Common Lisp. 2021-03-14T16:57:56Z beach: pcre: With that definition, Java is homoiconic as well. 2021-03-14T16:59:32Z pcre: and python as well, but... homoiconicity lies in implementation's AST not the language itself, so it's implementation defined 2021-03-14T17:00:14Z mfiano: Julia is often not considered homoiconic anymore, especially for people that know a thing or two about Lisp. Its compiler is written in Lisp, though. 2021-03-14T17:00:30Z beach: pcre: Another extremely important feature of Common Lisp is that it has a standard that was created by an independent organization. Independent in that that organization does not supply Common Lisp implementations. As I point out in my talks to industry, a project leader who chooses a language without an independent standard for some project, should be fired. 2021-03-14T17:00:33Z CrazyPython quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-14T17:00:40Z pcre: https://docs.julialang.org/en/v1/manual/metaprogramming/ 2021-03-14T17:00:53Z pcre: they claim it's homoiconic on the front page of metaprogramming 2021-03-14T17:01:21Z beach: pcre: Anyway, it is quite inappropriate to come here and try to convince people to use Julia rather than Common Lisp. 2021-03-14T17:01:38Z beach: pcre: People claim so many things. 2021-03-14T17:02:44Z pcre: i see homoiconicity as implementation-dependent 2021-03-14T17:02:58Z pcre: except lisp where it's enforced 2021-03-14T17:03:02Z beach: I don't even know what that is supposed to mean. 2021-03-14T17:03:36Z pcre: it's AST can be clean just like lisp, and therefore manipulated just like lisp.... 2021-03-14T17:03:57Z beach: The Common Lisp standard dictates how code is represented internally, and it is an immediate result of the surface syntax. 2021-03-14T17:03:58Z mfiano: There's a reason Julia's parser was written in an actual homoiconic language. 2021-03-14T17:04:13Z beach: pcre: Again, what is your point? 2021-03-14T17:04:18Z pcre: S-expr is one way to go about it, M-expr another and general expression Expr which are used in julia... 2021-03-14T17:05:50Z beach: pcre: It seems you thought that homoiconicity is the only reason we use Common Lisp, and that you are now convinced that Julia is homoiconic too. Given that you are now also convinced that Julia is faster than a good Common Lisp implementation, there is probably no reason for you to use Common Lisp. 2021-03-14T17:05:57Z pcre: i think you are not believing that julia is lisp-like macros but i won't argue 2021-03-14T17:06:15Z beach: pcre: I don't care whether you agree or not. 2021-03-14T17:06:17Z puchacz joined #lisp 2021-03-14T17:06:18Z pcre: beach: you read my mind 2021-03-14T17:06:28Z pcre: but i like S-expr 2021-03-14T17:06:39Z pcre: so i learn CL but not use it 2021-03-14T17:06:41Z _death: what is this weird :call thing.. in Lisp, (/ (+ 4 4) 2) is (/ (+ 4 4) 2), not (call / (call + 4 4) 2) 2021-03-14T17:06:59Z beach: pcre: I am sorry to hear that. 2021-03-14T17:07:45Z puchacz: hi, if I (setf *special-variable* new-value) without a dynamic binding (i.e. modify the global value), am I guaranteed not to overwrite any dynamic bindings that already exist in other threads? 2021-03-14T17:08:53Z beach: pcre: I for one like CLOS and the MOP. I like method combinations. I like the condition system, and I like the fact that the standard can't change in arbitrary ways. 2021-03-14T17:09:04Z mfiano: puchacz: Threads are not part of the astandard, so there is no guarantee. 2021-03-14T17:09:09Z mfiano: standard* 2021-03-14T17:09:18Z beach: puchacz: Since the standard does not mention threads, it is implementation specific. 2021-03-14T17:09:47Z beach: puchacz: But most implementations share the global value, and make other bindings per thread. 2021-03-14T17:09:48Z puchacz: mfiano, beach - thanks. I will not do it then. I will use 2 variables instead, one global for setf, the other for dynamic bindings 2021-03-14T17:11:32Z puchacz: and without threads, (setf *special-variable* new-value) when outside a dynamic binding just changes the global place, and inside dynamic binding - the dynamically bound place, right? 2021-03-14T17:12:10Z beach: Depends on what you mean by "outside". 2021-03-14T17:12:57Z puchacz: beach - in a code that is not in (let ((*special-variable* value-1)) ...) and not anything called by this code 2021-03-14T17:13:25Z beach: Then yes. If there are no dynamic bindings, then the global value is altered. 2021-03-14T17:13:43Z puchacz: and if there is? i.e. I am inside this let or somethign called by this let? 2021-03-14T17:13:46Z beach: Though watch out for let-like constructs too. 2021-03-14T17:13:59Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-14T17:14:05Z beach: It is always the most recent binding that is affected. 2021-03-14T17:14:10Z puchacz: ok, thanks 2021-03-14T17:14:44Z puchacz: however I think I will try to avoid setfing a special variable 2021-03-14T17:14:45Z beach: Even MAKUNBOUND affects only the most recent binding. 2021-03-14T17:15:08Z puchacz: confusing, and threading behaviour is undefined 2021-03-14T17:15:48Z beach: puchacz: I don't think you will find an implementation that behaves differently from what we told you. 2021-03-14T17:16:28Z beach: puchacz: People use languages without a standard every day, like Python, Julia, etc. They see no problem. 2021-03-14T17:17:07Z beach: I hear there are even project leaders of important commercial projects who choose languages without a standard. 2021-03-14T17:17:51Z puchacz: we have a standard, I see it as an advantage, why not use it:)  ? 2021-03-14T17:17:55Z beach: puchacz: It is not "undefined" in that there is not a phrase in the Common Lisp standard that says that this behavior is undefined. It is just that the standard does not mention threads. 2021-03-14T17:17:56Z puchacz: the standard even 2021-03-14T17:18:12Z beach: Oh, you are right. It is a great advantage. 2021-03-14T17:18:31Z beach: But if you need stuff that is not in the standard, then you have no choice. 2021-03-14T17:18:52Z entel joined #lisp 2021-03-14T17:18:55Z beach: And if every implementation defines the behavior in the same way, then the risk is minimal. 2021-03-14T17:20:12Z pcre: would you see python as having a standard? 2021-03-14T17:20:19Z puchacz: no :) 2021-03-14T17:20:26Z rdd` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-14T17:21:01Z pcre: do you see python's BNF and reference as a standard? 2021-03-14T17:21:53Z puchacz: python's usefulness has a lot to do with their numerical / machine learning library wrappers around C libraries 2021-03-14T17:22:15Z puchacz: my understanding is these wrappers are not portable and they only work with C 2021-03-14T17:22:24Z puchacz: Cpython I mean 2021-03-14T17:23:32Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-14T17:23:51Z puchacz: anyway, beach, I agree that we routinely use threads that are outside of the standard already, but it is not the reason for me to push the limits and use a construct like setf-ing a dynamic variable across threads, it may be less "informally standardised" across implementations. 2021-03-14T17:24:22Z pcre: beach: perhaps you don't see cpython's reference as a standard, so you'd use CL for ML/AI? 2021-03-14T17:24:48Z pcre: and not to mention mobile apps UI and desktop UI 2021-03-14T17:25:45Z pcre: has anyone written mobile apps in CL? 2021-03-14T17:30:07Z heisig: pcre: I am using CL for ML/AI (among other things). And I there are some mobile apps written in CL. There is even a steam game being developed in CL. 2021-03-14T17:30:11Z pcre: puchacz: can you write android UI in CL? 2021-03-14T17:30:56Z pcre: heisig: hmm i searched it's seems slike a barren desert like C 2021-03-14T17:31:02Z heisig: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.eql5.android.repl 2021-03-14T17:31:20Z puchacz: you can write a lot of app in CL (ECL or Lispworks) and communicate with Java GUI via JNI 2021-03-14T17:31:35Z puchacz: so not fully in CL but a lot of it can be in CL 2021-03-14T17:33:38Z pcre: It uses the ECL implementation for the Lisp side, and Qt5/QML for the UI. Qt/gtk is crap 2021-03-14T17:33:45Z pcre: julia too has qt problem 2021-03-14T17:34:09Z puchacz: Lispworks uses Java for Android GUI 2021-03-14T17:34:41Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-03-14T17:35:00Z Lycurgus: anybody used CLOG? 2021-03-14T17:37:48Z ficl joined #lisp 2021-03-14T17:37:54Z Lycurgus: or anything cl that just works the html5 dom 2021-03-14T17:39:53Z Lycurgus: (to effect a gui, not just the standard web server stuff) 2021-03-14T17:41:16Z alanz: Lycurgus, I am no expert in cl or guis, but I have played a bit with CLOG. It looks pretty good, and they guy developing it is very helpful and committed to it 2021-03-14T17:41:35Z Lycurgus: rebbi botton 2021-03-14T17:41:43Z flazh quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-14T17:41:45Z alanz: yes, he hangs out here 2021-03-14T17:41:58Z alanz: sometimes 2021-03-14T17:41:59Z Lycurgus: with what nick? 2021-03-14T17:42:08Z alanz: dbotton, iirc 2021-03-14T17:42:16Z Lycurgus: ah, ty 2021-03-14T17:42:37Z flazh joined #lisp 2021-03-14T17:42:49Z alanz: if you look at the repo, there is a discourse, and discussions on github too 2021-03-14T17:43:12Z Lycurgus: i too started to play with it 2021-03-14T17:43:36Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-03-14T17:44:03Z Lycurgus: didn get to point of any screens tho 2021-03-14T17:44:16Z rixard quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-14T17:44:44Z rixard joined #lisp 2021-03-14T17:44:51Z Lycurgus: which I take it 'looks pretty good' means you did 2021-03-14T17:46:13Z rickygee_ joined #lisp 2021-03-14T17:48:57Z elusive joined #lisp 2021-03-14T17:52:26Z pcre: Lycurgus: how did you know about CLOG 2021-03-14T17:52:49Z Lycurgus: pcre, it's on cliki 2021-03-14T17:53:43Z villanella quit (Quit: villanella) 2021-03-14T17:54:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: I tend to think react-native + parenscript + cl would be a good mobile app setup 2021-03-14T17:54:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: Even better if someone wanted to reimplement react-native's strategy in CL . . . 2021-03-14T17:59:32Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-14T18:00:25Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-14T18:05:24Z aindilis` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-14T18:07:09Z taof joined #lisp 2021-03-14T18:12:29Z blackadder quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2021-03-14T18:33:04Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-14T18:39:35Z dmc00 joined #lisp 2021-03-14T18:52:26Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-14T18:57:04Z rixard quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-14T18:57:45Z rixard joined #lisp 2021-03-14T19:04:09Z rickygee_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-14T19:09:18Z pcre quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-14T19:19:26Z curtosis[away] joined #lisp 2021-03-14T19:34:39Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-14T19:34:48Z curtosis[away] quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-14T19:37:58Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-14T19:41:12Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-14T19:41:47Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-14T19:49:57Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2021-03-14T19:50:29Z asarch joined #lisp 2021-03-14T19:51:14Z asarch: Do you have to declare all the parameters of the function in the (defgeneric ...) section? 2021-03-14T19:51:40Z asarch: Let's say: (defmethod foo ((instance bar) baz spam) ...) 2021-03-14T19:52:04Z asarch: So, (defgeneric foo (baz spam bar))? 2021-03-14T19:56:07Z asarch_ joined #lisp 2021-03-14T19:56:43Z asarch_ quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-14T19:59:39Z asarch quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-14T20:02:26Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-14T20:02:31Z rickygee_ joined #lisp 2021-03-14T20:03:14Z andrei-n quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-14T20:04:12Z asarch joined #lisp 2021-03-14T20:07:18Z rickygee_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-14T20:13:29Z taof left #lisp 2021-03-14T20:13:44Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-14T20:13:44Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2021-03-14T20:13:44Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-14T20:16:25Z Oddity quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-14T20:16:31Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-14T20:16:51Z Oddity joined #lisp 2021-03-14T20:18:58Z heisig: I am not sure I understand your question. Is this about congruence of lambda lists? If so, check 2021-03-14T20:19:02Z heisig: clhs 7.6.4 2021-03-14T20:19:03Z specbot: Congruent Lambda-lists for all Methods of a Generic Function: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/07_fd.htm 2021-03-14T20:20:07Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-14T20:20:41Z kaiwulf joined #lisp 2021-03-14T20:23:43Z cognemo_ quit (Quit: cognemo) 2021-03-14T20:23:50Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-14T20:24:29Z cognemo joined #lisp 2021-03-14T20:25:48Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-03-14T20:26:18Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-14T20:27:14Z ficl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-14T20:27:26Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-14T20:35:25Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-14T20:35:31Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-14T20:40:51Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-14T20:42:23Z _death: added clos-mop-html lookup to my slime fork.. should also be done for clim some time 2021-03-14T20:44:43Z puchacz quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-14T20:45:50Z remby joined #lisp 2021-03-14T20:45:52Z matryoshka joined #lisp 2021-03-14T20:56:18Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-14T20:57:37Z remby quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)) 2021-03-14T20:58:38Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-14T20:59:03Z supercoven quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-14T21:02:43Z gitgoood is now known as gitgood 2021-03-14T21:04:36Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-03-14T21:18:27Z perrier-jouet quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-14T21:25:45Z texno quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-14T21:27:01Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-03-14T21:27:26Z texno joined #lisp 2021-03-14T21:37:42Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-14T21:39:02Z IPmonger_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-14T21:39:02Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-14T21:40:17Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2021-03-14T21:40:52Z perrier-jouet joined #lisp 2021-03-14T21:44:27Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-14T21:49:51Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2021-03-14T21:50:57Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-14T21:50:57Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2021-03-14T21:54:50Z asarch: I mean, do you have to declare the method's argument in the defgeneric declaration? 2021-03-14T21:55:10Z asarch: IF yes, which one goes first, the name of the class or the name of the arguments? 2021-03-14T21:57:28Z Xach: asarch: the defgeneric is the function. methods define functionality that applies when the argument classes (or eqls) match. 2021-03-14T21:57:54Z kenran quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-14T21:58:29Z Xach: the syntax in defmethod is (defmethod foo (( ) ...) ...). It can also be ( (eql )) 2021-03-14T21:59:08Z asarch: What would be the equivalent for the defgeneric declaration? 2021-03-14T21:59:45Z asarch: (defgeneric ( ...) ...)? 2021-03-14T21:59:49Z Xach: (defgeneric foo () ...) - but they need not match the name in the defmethod. 2021-03-14T21:59:58Z Xach: asarch: no, defgeneric is not concerned with classes. 2021-03-14T22:00:14Z asarch: REALLY?!!! 2021-03-14T22:00:23Z Xach: They are not attached to classes. 2021-03-14T22:00:26Z Xach: Really. 2021-03-14T22:00:43Z asarch: I thought that for each defmethod there has to be a defgeneric before 2021-03-14T22:01:09Z Xach: asarch: that is a normal way to do it, but it is not mandatory. 2021-03-14T22:01:15Z asarch: Thank you! 2021-03-14T22:01:22Z heisig quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-14T22:01:22Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-14T22:01:25Z asarch: Thank you very much! :-) 2021-03-14T22:01:38Z Xach: I'm not sure how you got from what I wrote to a revelation about defgeneric/defmethod like that, but if it helps, I'm glad. 2021-03-14T22:02:02Z asarch: My notes wasn't complete about this 2021-03-14T22:04:04Z asarch: And PCL uses this funny notation: (defgeneric withdraw (account amount) ...) (defmethod withdraw ((account bank-account) amount) ...) 2021-03-14T22:06:41Z Xach: asarch: that notation is normal 2021-03-14T22:07:08Z Xach: asarch: that is what i also described 2021-03-14T22:07:32Z asarch: ? 2021-03-14T22:07:45Z asarch: "bank-account" is the name of the class, right? 2021-03-14T22:08:03Z Xach: asarch: yes 2021-03-14T22:08:05Z asarch: So, in the defgeneric declaration you don't actually need to specify the name of the class at all? 2021-03-14T22:08:41Z Xach: asarch: there is no "the" class - defgeneric is generic, not specific to a class. 2021-03-14T22:08:50Z Xach: asarch: and you do not put class names in the defgeneric lambda list 2021-03-14T22:08:59Z asarch: I see 2021-03-14T22:09:33Z dhil quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-14T22:10:05Z asarch: My notes are wrong then 2021-03-14T22:10:17Z asarch: :-P 2021-03-14T22:10:59Z Xach: asarch: it may help to read some "real" code too 2021-03-14T22:11:49Z asarch: I remember when I was at junior high-school, our English teacher was writing some examples of the question "Which" and one of my classmates wrote "Cuich one do you like most?" instead of "Which one..." 2021-03-14T22:12:33Z asarch: I know, but so far, all my code didn't use the defgeneric declaration (and I couldn't find the copy of the Sonya's book) 2021-03-14T22:14:09Z Xach: if you do not have a defgeneric, it is automatically created when a defmethod for a name is first seen. i don't like that style very much, but some don't mind. 2021-03-14T22:14:11Z cchristiansen joined #lisp 2021-03-14T22:14:25Z Xach: it does not mean there is no defgeneric, just that one was implicitly created 2021-03-14T22:14:56Z asarch: So, why defgeneric at all? 2021-03-14T22:15:30Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-14T22:16:04Z Xach: asarch: it is a good place for the documentation of the function 2021-03-14T22:16:09Z Xach: there is a :documentation option 2021-03-14T22:16:24Z Xach: you can also specify things like method combination there, but that's somewhat uncommon 2021-03-14T22:17:37Z asarch: Ok 2021-03-14T22:19:47Z Xach: asarch: a group of generic functions working together in a documented way can form a protocol. and then the most generic behavior can be defined for a broad class of objects, with specialization via more specific methods when needed. this is discussed in a nice way in PCL. 2021-03-14T22:20:01Z Xach: AMOP has a complex but nicely-defined protocol for CLOS itself 2021-03-14T22:31:16Z epony quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-14T22:31:48Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-14T22:31:59Z kslt1 quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-03-14T22:36:05Z perrier-jouet quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-03-14T22:37:38Z akoana joined #lisp 2021-03-14T22:39:38Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-14T22:45:17Z ljavorsk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-14T22:47:49Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-03-14T22:51:13Z pve quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-14T22:52:15Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2021-03-14T22:56:10Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-14T22:59:12Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-14T23:02:42Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-14T23:02:44Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-14T23:11:35Z epony joined #lisp 2021-03-14T23:12:48Z sturm__ joined #lisp 2021-03-14T23:15:00Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-14T23:15:34Z sturm__ quit (Quit: sturm__) 2021-03-14T23:30:35Z asarch joined #lisp 2021-03-14T23:31:17Z varjagg quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 28.0.50)) 2021-03-14T23:35:37Z bilegeek joined #lisp 2021-03-14T23:38:28Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-14T23:45:31Z yitzi joined #lisp 2021-03-14T23:46:30Z texno quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-14T23:46:36Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1) 2021-03-14T23:46:54Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-03-14T23:48:13Z texno joined #lisp 2021-03-14T23:50:22Z perrier-jouet joined #lisp 2021-03-15T00:17:30Z texno quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-15T00:24:11Z texno joined #lisp 2021-03-15T00:25:34Z curtosis joined #lisp 2021-03-15T00:33:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-15T00:33:06Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-15T00:34:02Z Sweedish joined #lisp 2021-03-15T00:35:09Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2021-03-15T00:45:48Z kevingal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-15T00:48:17Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-15T00:54:20Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-15T00:54:42Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-15T01:02:13Z pillton joined #lisp 2021-03-15T01:25:10Z yoseph joined #lisp 2021-03-15T01:28:40Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-15T01:30:55Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-03-15T01:43:09Z Sheilong quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-15T01:46:19Z DHARMAKAYA joined #lisp 2021-03-15T01:47:18Z DHARMAKAYA: Can any here explain why this would not be the first iteration of the y combinator in lambda calculus? :" λf. (λf. (λx. f (x x))(λx. f (x x))) " 2021-03-15T01:48:03Z DHARMAKAYA: Does the y combinator require an input to reach the first output? 2021-03-15T01:48:36Z DHARMAKAYA: I had thought it was like the omega combinator, in that it doesn't require an input to ouptut 2021-03-15T01:48:57Z DHARMAKAYA: (An external additional input) 2021-03-15T01:52:12Z moon-child: DHARMAKAYA: you immediately shadow the outermost ‘f’ without ever using it, so what's the point of binding it? 2021-03-15T01:52:32Z asarch joined #lisp 2021-03-15T01:52:40Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-15T01:53:38Z DHARMAKAYA: Is this the first iteration output then?: f(f (x x))(λx. f (x x))) 2021-03-15T01:53:57Z DHARMAKAYA: And the next is?: f(f(f (x x))(λx. f (x x)))) 2021-03-15T01:53:57Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-15T01:54:20Z gitgood quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-15T01:54:32Z DHARMAKAYA: Must be something like that. 2021-03-15T01:57:12Z moon-child: you mean beta reducing the body? Something like this \f.(f((\x.f(xx))(\x.f(xx)))) 2021-03-15T01:57:32Z DHARMAKAYA: Right, beta reduction first iteration 2021-03-15T01:57:58Z moon-child: iteration? 2021-03-15T01:58:15Z DHARMAKAYA: The (λx. f (x x) on the right is input as the var x on the left (λx. f (x x), correct? 2021-03-15T01:59:05Z moon-child: yes 2021-03-15T02:00:32Z DHARMAKAYA: Alright, so similar to the omega combinator that it basically outputs itself, but has an extra embedded function level 2021-03-15T02:00:54Z xsperry joined #lisp 2021-03-15T02:01:22Z DHARMAKAYA: So every iteration it is nesting the y combinator within the y combinator, like a fibonacci function or a factorial, etcetera 2021-03-15T02:01:36Z DHARMAKAYA: Thanks. 2021-03-15T02:02:03Z DHARMAKAYA: I guess the first lambda f is a little confusing 2021-03-15T02:03:30Z DHARMAKAYA: Is the "f" inside the function essentially the same as the λf on the left side, although a nested edition? 2021-03-15T02:03:55Z warweasle quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 26.1) 2021-03-15T02:04:19Z asarch: Any JSON to XML converter? 2021-03-15T02:05:11Z DHARMAKAYA: I guess for the yc in lambda calculus to be fractal, the λf has to be the same thing as the f inside the function basically 2021-03-15T02:08:26Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-15T02:09:08Z DHARMAKAYA: And by "fixed point combinator", that basically means a function like this: F(x) = x ? 2021-03-15T02:09:53Z moon-child: asarch: with apologies, http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/xml/s-exp_vs_XML 2021-03-15T02:10:30Z moon-child: DHARMAKAYA: given some function f, the fixed point of f as applied to some argument x is the repeated application of f until the result is constant 2021-03-15T02:10:33Z yoseph quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-15T02:10:49Z asarch: Oh :-( 2021-03-15T02:11:08Z asarch: Any good tool to parse JSON then? 2021-03-15T02:11:22Z DHARMAKAYA: Until the result is the input or until it is simply a constant result? 2021-03-15T02:11:58Z moon-child: until it is constant. So for instance, the fixed point of sqrt as applied to 2 (as applied to any real, really) is 1 2021-03-15T02:12:14Z moon-child: because sqrt(sqrt(sqrt(...sqrt(2)))) = 1 2021-03-15T02:12:20Z curtosis is now known as curtosis[away] 2021-03-15T02:12:20Z DHARMAKAYA: Ah. Interesting 2021-03-15T02:12:33Z DHARMAKAYA: Thanks! 2021-03-15T02:12:50Z curtosis[away] quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-15T02:13:11Z DHARMAKAYA: So, to clarify, does the y combinator in lambda calculus require any external input to evaluate? 2021-03-15T02:13:32Z DHARMAKAYA: Or can it simply be iterated without any external input? 2021-03-15T02:14:07Z moon-child: there is no such thing as evaluation in lambda calculus 2021-03-15T02:14:46Z moon-child: (nor 'iteration') 2021-03-15T02:14:57Z DHARMAKAYA: Well, what is it called when the omega combinator outputs the omega combinator when it "runs"? 2021-03-15T02:15:08Z DHARMAKAYA: Is that an "iteration" or...? 2021-03-15T02:15:24Z moon-child: nothing is output 2021-03-15T02:15:29Z moon-child: nothing runs 2021-03-15T02:15:41Z moon-child: there are simply equivalent forms 2021-03-15T02:16:15Z moon-child: so for instance, I can prove that p and (\x.x)p are equivalent. But p isn't a 'reduced' or 'evaluated' version of (\x.x)p 2021-03-15T02:16:17Z DHARMAKAYA: When a computer processes it, it is going to do so in sequential passes 2021-03-15T02:16:39Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-15T02:16:54Z moon-child: there is an algorithm called beta reduction which can reduce the complexity of lambda calculus expressions. Sometimes. Sometimes not. For instance, (\x.xx)(\x.xx) 2021-03-15T02:17:25Z DHARMAKAYA: If I wrote a program to output successive nestings of the y combinator lambda calculus through beta reduction, it would do each pass in sequence 2021-03-15T02:17:41Z DHARMAKAYA: What is each "iteration" of beta reduction called? 2021-03-15T02:18:00Z DHARMAKAYA: A single pass, for instance 2021-03-15T02:19:15Z moon-child: I don't know of a name. You might call it _a_ beta reduction, or the result of a beta reduction 2021-03-15T02:19:51Z asarch: JSON to list? 2021-03-15T02:20:30Z DHARMAKAYA: Ah. Thanks for explaining that maths style functional programming speak 2021-03-15T02:21:12Z DHARMAKAYA: So the first full beta reduction pass on the y combinator outputs what? (in lambda calculus notation) 2021-03-15T02:21:51Z DHARMAKAYA: Or "expands to" what? 2021-03-15T02:22:16Z moon-child: \f.(f((\x.f(xx))(\x.f(xx)))) 2021-03-15T02:22:51Z DHARMAKAYA: Thanks! I assume \ is a lambda 2021-03-15T02:23:11Z moon-child: yeah 2021-03-15T02:24:06Z DHARMAKAYA: Ah, was simply necessary to drop that inner lambda on what I posted at first 2021-03-15T02:24:23Z DHARMAKAYA: Thanks for confirming that was generally correct! 2021-03-15T02:25:39Z yoseph joined #lisp 2021-03-15T02:26:48Z yoseph quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-15T02:28:18Z DHARMAKAYA: For any that would like a pretty edition: λf.( f (λx. f (x x))(λx. f (x x))) 2021-03-15T02:29:01Z DHARMAKAYA: And that is one for the long term math and programming notes archive. Thanks again! 2021-03-15T02:32:15Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-15T02:32:57Z mrchampion quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-15T02:35:50Z mrchampion joined #lisp 2021-03-15T02:44:41Z _jrjsmrtn joined #lisp 2021-03-15T02:45:54Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-15T02:56:56Z DHARMAKAYA: I don't wear t-shirts, although thought of a great t-shirt idea tonight: "Does he even Mandel, bro(t)?" 2021-03-15T02:57:38Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-15T02:57:42Z DHARMAKAYA: Of course with the Mandelbrot on the shirt 2021-03-15T02:58:06Z DHARMAKAYA: Or maybe that pic of benoit looking straight-on 2021-03-15T03:00:52Z aindilis joined #lisp 2021-03-15T03:01:38Z rickygee_ joined #lisp 2021-03-15T03:06:09Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-03-15T03:06:43Z rickygee_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-15T03:10:30Z semz joined #lisp 2021-03-15T03:10:30Z semz quit (Changing host) 2021-03-15T03:10:31Z semz joined #lisp 2021-03-15T03:13:44Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-15T03:18:55Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2021-03-15T03:26:19Z DHARMAKAYA quit (Quit: Turning off a portion of this simulation.) 2021-03-15T03:31:43Z curtosis[away] joined #lisp 2021-03-15T03:32:23Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-03-15T03:34:42Z Josh_2: asarch: I use Jonathan 2021-03-15T03:34:53Z asarch: Thank you! 2021-03-15T03:35:03Z asarch: Thank you very much! :-) 2021-03-15T03:38:13Z quazimodo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-15T03:38:48Z kaiwulf quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-15T03:42:44Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-15T03:44:47Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2021-03-15T03:46:45Z curtosis[away] quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-15T03:58:38Z igemnace joined #lisp 2021-03-15T03:59:33Z markasoftware: what are the *features* entries usually used for operating system detection 2021-03-15T04:00:53Z markasoftware: nevermind, i'll just use trivial-features 2021-03-15T04:02:13Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2021-03-15T04:02:26Z Alfr is now known as Guest97709 2021-03-15T04:02:26Z Guest97709 quit (Killed (cherryh.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))) 2021-03-15T04:02:31Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-03-15T04:05:38Z igemnace quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-15T04:09:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-15T04:11:09Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2021-03-15T04:13:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: asarch: I use yason 2021-03-15T04:14:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's not perfect, but I like the API it presents 2021-03-15T04:14:56Z asarch: Thank you! 2021-03-15T04:14:59Z asarch: Thank you very much! :-) 2021-03-15T04:15:43Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-15T04:35:06Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-03-15T04:35:41Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-03-15T04:48:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-15T04:49:58Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-15T04:50:09Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2021-03-15T04:51:02Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-15T04:58:03Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-15T05:08:05Z heisig joined #lisp 2021-03-15T05:12:20Z akoana quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-15T05:12:55Z elusive quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-15T05:18:46Z bilegeek_ joined #lisp 2021-03-15T05:20:57Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-15T05:21:38Z bilegeek quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-15T05:22:09Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-03-15T05:30:03Z karlosz quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-15T05:34:52Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-15T05:36:46Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-03-15T05:38:48Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-15T05:39:08Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-03-15T05:44:37Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-15T05:45:09Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-15T05:51:16Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-15T05:59:02Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-15T05:59:02Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2021-03-15T05:59:02Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-15T06:02:30Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-03-15T06:12:07Z madage joined #lisp 2021-03-15T06:12:39Z DHARMAKAYA joined #lisp 2021-03-15T06:16:01Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-15T06:18:03Z bilegeek joined #lisp 2021-03-15T06:18:06Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-15T06:19:50Z bilegeek_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-15T06:24:13Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-15T06:29:08Z bilegeek quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-15T06:33:58Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2021-03-15T06:38:19Z Lord_of_Life quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-15T06:38:38Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2021-03-15T06:42:50Z marusich quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-15T06:43:04Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-15T06:43:14Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-15T06:44:28Z pillton quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-03-15T06:45:18Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-15T06:46:39Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-15T06:47:16Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-15T06:47:22Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-15T06:48:11Z flip214: _death: :( but thanks 2021-03-15T06:52:51Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-15T07:06:13Z DHARMAKAYA quit (Quit: Turning off a portion of this simulation.) 2021-03-15T07:11:41Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-03-15T07:16:13Z kam1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-15T07:17:55Z Klopsch joined #lisp 2021-03-15T07:18:35Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-15T07:20:03Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-15T07:20:25Z heisig quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-15T07:21:23Z marusich joined #lisp 2021-03-15T07:25:38Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-15T07:27:23Z surabax joined #lisp 2021-03-15T07:29:45Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-03-15T07:42:04Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-15T07:42:09Z Demosthe1ex joined #lisp 2021-03-15T07:43:21Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-15T07:45:10Z Demosthenex quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-15T07:46:52Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-15T07:49:32Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2021-03-15T08:00:45Z Stanley|00 joined #lisp 2021-03-15T08:02:06Z Stanley00 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-15T08:02:34Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2021-03-15T08:04:08Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2021-03-15T08:05:57Z Stanley|00 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-15T08:05:57Z flazh quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-15T08:06:48Z flazh joined #lisp 2021-03-15T08:07:51Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-03-15T08:09:49Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-15T08:10:38Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-15T08:11:41Z lonjil2 is now known as lonjil 2021-03-15T08:21:50Z andrei-n joined #lisp 2021-03-15T08:23:22Z hjudt joined #lisp 2021-03-15T08:23:43Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-15T08:24:47Z aindilis quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-15T08:26:18Z aindilis` joined #lisp 2021-03-15T08:29:47Z ficl joined #lisp 2021-03-15T08:38:00Z marusich quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-15T08:39:12Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-15T08:42:54Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-15T08:43:49Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-03-15T08:49:56Z pve joined #lisp 2021-03-15T08:51:06Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-15T09:02:11Z flip214: can someone offer l10n or i18n (never know which - translating text strings) hints for CL-WHO? Is there some library that uses a _ macro and GNU message catalog input files to build a translation table? 2021-03-15T09:06:05Z flip214: looks like cl-i18n is what I want/need 2021-03-15T09:07:12Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-15T09:11:43Z mrchampion quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-15T09:19:13Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-15T09:23:09Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-15T09:24:45Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-15T09:27:37Z gitgood joined #lisp 2021-03-15T09:27:45Z gitgood quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-15T09:28:45Z pranavats quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-15T09:31:14Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-15T09:31:27Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-15T09:33:25Z mrchampion joined #lisp 2021-03-15T09:33:26Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-15T09:33:53Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-15T09:48:31Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-03-15T09:56:37Z sz0 joined #lisp 2021-03-15T10:00:06Z vegansbane6963 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-03-15T10:14:02Z gaqwas quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-15T10:19:11Z Stanley00 quit 2021-03-15T10:30:09Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-03-15T10:31:21Z cchristiansen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-15T10:34:47Z wxie joined #lisp 2021-03-15T10:36:21Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-15T10:37:44Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-03-15T10:38:04Z dhil joined #lisp 2021-03-15T10:38:19Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-15T10:40:50Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-15T10:43:39Z yottabyte quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-15T10:51:20Z yoseph joined #lisp 2021-03-15T10:53:25Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-03-15T11:06:45Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-15T11:08:19Z kslt1 joined #lisp 2021-03-15T11:15:27Z scymtym: _death: McCLIM has hyperclim.el for such lookups. i don't know if replicating the symbol database in SLIME would make sense. in fact, i have been working towards reducing the multiple lists of all CLIM symbols to a single ground truth 2021-03-15T11:16:59Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-15T11:17:00Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2021-03-15T11:17:00Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-15T11:27:04Z schweers joined #lisp 2021-03-15T11:30:35Z kslt1 quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-15T11:35:21Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-15T11:35:38Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-03-15T11:36:07Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-15T11:36:26Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-15T11:36:27Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-15T11:36:57Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-15T11:43:06Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-15T11:43:43Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-15T11:44:24Z ldbeth: Can I take that most update to date common lisps have included the same functionalities as XP? 2021-03-15T11:44:59Z bjorkintosh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-15T11:45:11Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2021-03-15T11:46:17Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-15T11:48:14Z scymtym quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-15T11:52:06Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-15T11:52:24Z Xach: ldbeth: what is XP? 2021-03-15T11:53:25Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-15T11:55:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-15T11:55:26Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-15T11:57:43Z edgar-rft: Xeroderma Pigmentosum 2021-03-15T11:57:59Z phoe: XP, the pretty printing system? 2021-03-15T11:58:18Z phoe: AFAIK it eventually became a part of ANSI CL, so it must be included by all conforming implementations 2021-03-15T11:59:44Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-15T12:02:06Z ldbeth: phoe: thank you 2021-03-15T12:03:46Z ldbeth: I'm playing with a very old software (1992), trying to figure out how to load the system 2021-03-15T12:04:45Z phoe: that's pre-ANSI, might need some porting in general 2021-03-15T12:05:04Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-03-15T12:07:20Z ldbeth: Guess I have to make a decision between reusing MK:DEFSYSTEM or adapt ASDF:DEFSYSTEM 2021-03-15T12:09:01Z nkatte joined #lisp 2021-03-15T12:12:45Z kslt1 joined #lisp 2021-03-15T12:13:53Z long4mud quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-15T12:14:56Z ldbeth quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-15T12:15:10Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-15T12:17:44Z kslt1 quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-15T12:20:07Z kslt1 joined #lisp 2021-03-15T12:20:26Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-03-15T12:22:45Z scymtym joined #lisp 2021-03-15T12:24:00Z kslt1 quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-15T12:29:48Z pranavats joined #lisp 2021-03-15T12:30:02Z jonatack quit (Quit: jonatack) 2021-03-15T12:34:49Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-15T12:35:23Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-03-15T12:39:01Z Sheilong joined #lisp 2021-03-15T12:44:40Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-03-15T12:45:06Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-15T12:50:39Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-15T12:51:32Z flip214: can cl-i18n also generate MO or PO files, so that I can tell people to use standard tools for translating? 2021-03-15T12:53:08Z yoseph quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-15T12:54:16Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-15T12:55:08Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-15T12:55:16Z sabrac joined #lisp 2021-03-15T12:56:56Z warweasle joined #lisp 2021-03-15T12:57:02Z nkatte quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-15T12:59:41Z sabrac: flip214: You available to review some functions? 2021-03-15T13:00:30Z Major_Biscuit joined #lisp 2021-03-15T13:00:34Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-03-15T13:00:48Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-15T13:01:42Z flip214: sabrac: not right now, please shoot me an email. 2021-03-15T13:04:21Z nkatte joined #lisp 2021-03-15T13:04:34Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-15T13:05:41Z Demosthe1ex is now known as Demosthenex 2021-03-15T13:05:54Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-15T13:06:39Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-15T13:07:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-15T13:07:26Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-15T13:08:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-15T13:08:27Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-15T13:08:34Z gitgood joined #lisp 2021-03-15T13:13:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-15T13:13:26Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-15T13:14:01Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2021-03-15T13:16:17Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-15T13:18:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-15T13:18:27Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-15T13:19:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-15T13:19:28Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-15T13:20:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-15T13:20:28Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-15T13:21:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-15T13:21:27Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-15T13:22:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-15T13:22:27Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-15T13:23:05Z gzj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-15T13:26:38Z ldbeth: Is it possible to have DECLARE ignore unknown declarations? 2021-03-15T13:27:11Z Bike: yes. do (declaim (declaration whatever)) 2021-03-15T13:27:16Z Bike: clhs declaration 2021-03-15T13:27:17Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_declar.htm 2021-03-15T13:31:51Z phoe: (proclaim '(declaration of war)) (defun make-war () (declare (war on rust programmers))) 2021-03-15T13:32:01Z kaiwulf joined #lisp 2021-03-15T13:33:01Z ldbeth: thank you Bike phoe 2021-03-15T13:33:26Z phoe: but in serious uses, use a toplevel DECLAIM as Bike suggested 2021-03-15T13:35:10Z ldbeth: It's because the old source file uses some delarations for interface document generator 2021-03-15T13:38:17Z ldbeth: I think I could use proclaim to make this take effect gloabally 2021-03-15T13:38:33Z Bike: declaim and proclaim are both global 2021-03-15T13:38:49Z semz: I've been wondering for a bit: Does PROCLAIM have an edge over DECLAIM outside of implementing some kind of interpreter on top of CL? 2021-03-15T13:39:16Z semz: I never quite understood why it exists 2021-03-15T13:39:16Z phoe: PROCLAIM is not eval-when'd, that's all 2021-03-15T13:39:18Z Bike: proclaim is good if you're doing something weird where you generate declarations at runtime, i guess 2021-03-15T13:39:42Z Bike: it's not usually very useful 2021-03-15T13:39:59Z phoe: (other than as a building block for implementing DECLAIM) 2021-03-15T13:40:10Z ldbeth: for legacy softwares mostly 2021-03-15T13:43:10Z ldbeth: Some of them build their own building system/document generator/module systems using macros 2021-03-15T13:54:53Z texno quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-15T13:57:32Z Cthulhux quit (Changing host) 2021-03-15T13:57:32Z Cthulhux joined #lisp 2021-03-15T13:58:07Z ldbeth quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-03-15T14:03:55Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2021-03-15T14:04:28Z Josh_2: Good afternoon 2021-03-15T14:04:31Z caret joined #lisp 2021-03-15T14:09:44Z TMA: i guess that proclaim is there for the same reason as progv 2021-03-15T14:11:47Z yangby joined #lisp 2021-03-15T14:11:57Z yangby quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-15T14:17:08Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-15T14:19:10Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-15T14:20:14Z Bike: yeah, same kind of deal. 2021-03-15T14:23:28Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-15T14:23:56Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-15T14:27:42Z _death: scymtym: oh, cool.. did know about hyperclim 2021-03-15T14:30:33Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-03-15T14:33:54Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-03-15T14:34:03Z luni: Hi all... i was trying to load clisp from slime/swank under Emacs and i get this: Process inferior-lisp floating point exception (core dumped) ... anyone knows a possible solution? Thanks in advance 2021-03-15T14:36:49Z jdz: luni: Do you have this same problem when running clisp directly from shell? 2021-03-15T14:37:27Z luni: no, from the shell is working well .. i used quicklisp to install quicklisp-slime-helper and all is ok 2021-03-15T14:37:28Z jdz: luni: Also if you don't have any specific reasons to use clisp you may try another implementation. 2021-03-15T14:38:04Z luni: yes... there is a specific game that was made using an old version of clisp 2021-03-15T14:38:15Z luni: but i'm using the latest anyway 2021-03-15T14:40:09Z jdz: The "latest" is a moot point when talking about clisp. 2021-03-15T14:41:13Z luni: yes this -> 2.49 (2010-07-07) 2021-03-15T14:42:06Z luni: anyway there is something strange.. i remember i used clisp end emacs not many years ago without troubles 2021-03-15T14:42:54Z luni: but now after loading the swank-repl appear that error 2021-03-15T14:43:14Z jdz: My guess would be some foreign library interface has changed. 2021-03-15T14:43:39Z jdz: So I'd suggest compiling clisp yourself. 2021-03-15T14:44:05Z jdz: Either 2.49 or the latest version from source repository. 2021-03-15T14:45:46Z aindilis` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-15T14:46:02Z luni: i have not compiled clisp from sources. i'm trying the latest version from the repository using apt-cyg :/ 2021-03-15T14:46:21Z luni: anyway why do you think that matter? 2021-03-15T14:46:27Z ggoes quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-15T14:46:59Z jdz: My *guess* is that an incompatible version of a shared library is being used. 2021-03-15T14:47:04Z ggoes joined #lisp 2021-03-15T14:47:50Z luni: ok... i will try after some other trails to compile from sources and see what happens 2021-03-15T14:47:59Z luni: *trials 2021-03-15T14:48:01Z jdz: Or you could try to debug the core file and see what exactly the problem is. 2021-03-15T14:48:12Z luni: how to do that? 2021-03-15T14:48:21Z jdz: Using gdb. 2021-03-15T14:49:24Z luni: ah, ok 2021-03-15T14:51:38Z luni: thank you 2021-03-15T14:53:46Z jdz: No problem, I hope you get it sorted. 2021-03-15T14:54:14Z caret_ joined #lisp 2021-03-15T14:54:18Z caret quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-03-15T14:54:20Z caret_ is now known as caret 2021-03-15T14:54:38Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-03-15T15:10:24Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-15T15:11:34Z kslt1 joined #lisp 2021-03-15T15:12:22Z thatpythonboy joined #lisp 2021-03-15T15:14:27Z aggin joined #lisp 2021-03-15T15:14:29Z andrei-n quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-15T15:22:18Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-15T15:23:37Z kslt1 quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-15T15:25:14Z tiwEllien quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-15T15:26:14Z tiwEllien joined #lisp 2021-03-15T15:27:01Z aggin quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-15T15:31:15Z stux|RC quit (Quit: Aloha!) 2021-03-15T15:33:47Z kslt1 joined #lisp 2021-03-15T15:37:49Z IPmonger quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5+deb4 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-15T15:38:55Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2021-03-15T15:41:19Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-15T15:41:47Z stux|RC joined #lisp 2021-03-15T15:43:41Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-15T15:47:54Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-15T15:51:31Z andrei-n joined #lisp 2021-03-15T15:55:12Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-03-15T15:55:21Z tinhatcat joined #lisp 2021-03-15T15:56:18Z tinhatcat quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-15T15:57:25Z epony quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-15T16:02:06Z APic quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-15T16:04:38Z Inline quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-15T16:07:33Z Tordek quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-15T16:10:10Z Alfr quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-15T16:12:52Z Tordek joined #lisp 2021-03-15T16:14:00Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-15T16:14:56Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-03-15T16:15:19Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-15T16:17:34Z thatpythonboy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-15T16:19:14Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-03-15T16:20:31Z v0|d quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-15T16:20:31Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-15T16:20:36Z Alfr quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-15T16:21:08Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-15T16:21:09Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-15T16:21:23Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-15T16:21:40Z v0|d joined #lisp 2021-03-15T16:25:08Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3)) 2021-03-15T16:28:02Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-03-15T16:28:14Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-15T16:37:18Z APic joined #lisp 2021-03-15T16:37:56Z Alfr quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-15T16:38:10Z epony joined #lisp 2021-03-15T16:38:44Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-03-15T16:40:22Z APic quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-15T16:41:00Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-03-15T16:45:21Z APic joined #lisp 2021-03-15T16:46:17Z choegusung joined #lisp 2021-03-15T16:49:00Z choegusung quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-15T16:49:50Z voidlily quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-15T16:58:30Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-15T17:01:26Z voidlily joined #lisp 2021-03-15T17:04:21Z Inline quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-15T17:08:01Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-03-15T17:10:08Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-15T17:10:45Z Tordek quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-15T17:11:07Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-15T17:11:42Z harlchen[m]1 joined #lisp 2021-03-15T17:12:03Z rgherdt_ joined #lisp 2021-03-15T17:14:02Z alanz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-15T17:14:02Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-15T17:14:02Z alanz joined #lisp 2021-03-15T17:14:02Z alanz quit (Changing host) 2021-03-15T17:14:02Z alanz joined #lisp 2021-03-15T17:14:03Z ey[m]1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-15T17:14:03Z infra_red[m] quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-15T17:14:03Z jdz quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-15T17:14:03Z alanz quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2021-03-15T17:14:03Z harlchen[m] quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-15T17:14:04Z rgherdt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-15T17:14:04Z alanz joined #lisp 2021-03-15T17:14:04Z infra_red[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-15T17:14:06Z alanz quit (Changing host) 2021-03-15T17:14:06Z alanz joined #lisp 2021-03-15T17:14:07Z infra_red[m] quit (Changing host) 2021-03-15T17:14:07Z infra_red[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-15T17:14:53Z jdz joined #lisp 2021-03-15T17:16:21Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-15T17:16:45Z ey[m]1 joined #lisp 2021-03-15T17:17:19Z Tordek joined #lisp 2021-03-15T17:22:15Z v0|d quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-15T17:24:56Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-03-15T17:25:15Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-03-15T17:29:36Z Bike: anyone around who can help me debug a complex format string? I have (format nil "~:{~a:~%~@< ~@;~:@{~?~%~}~:>~}" '(("f" ("bye ~2,'0d" (4)) ("h" ())) ("j" ("qud ~a" (list))))) 2021-03-15T17:30:17Z Bike: This prints "f:\n bye 04\n h\n j:\n qud LIST". The problem is that the "j:" has spaces before it that I don't want. It looks like the per-line prefix is still in effect, but that doesn't make sense to me. 2021-03-15T17:31:04Z Bike: do per-line prefixes not run out after a logical block, or what am i missing here 2021-03-15T17:32:43Z Bike: (format nil "~:{~a:~%~@< ~@;~@{~a~%~}~:>~}" '(("f" 'a 'b) ("j" 'c))) is a little simpler but has the same issue. 2021-03-15T17:33:40Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-03-15T17:34:32Z scymtym: one ugly solution would be (format nil "~{~{~a:~%~@< ~@;~@{~{~?~}~^~%~}~:>~}~^~%~}" '(("f" ("bye ~2,'0d" (4)) ("h" ())) ("j" ("qud ~a" (list))))) to move the hard newlines out of the logical blocks 2021-03-15T17:40:41Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-03-15T17:44:02Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-15T17:45:21Z warweasle quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 26.1) 2021-03-15T17:45:58Z Bike: but why is it happening at all? 2021-03-15T17:46:23Z Bike: if i replace ~:{ with ~:{~& it adds an extra break but the indentation is correct. i guess that's probably good enough for my purposes 2021-03-15T17:48:55Z scymtym: i think the reason is that ~% within a logical block causes the per-line prefix to be printed, even if no further output is produced within that block (and don't ask me whether that is conforming behavior or not) 2021-03-15T17:49:43Z Bike: i tried it on two different implementations, though i suppose they probably use the same pprinter 2021-03-15T17:50:36Z Bike: well, thanks 2021-03-15T17:50:55Z scymtym: sure 2021-03-15T17:51:08Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-15T17:53:54Z jmercouris: a way to do a mapcar ONLY if not null instead of deleting nils after? 2021-03-15T17:54:06Z jmercouris: so (mapcar (format "~a" (list 0 1 2 nil))) 2021-03-15T17:54:15Z jmercouris: instead of giving me a list of strings with a nil at the end 2021-03-15T17:54:24Z jmercouris: just give me ("0" "1" "2") 2021-03-15T17:54:32Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-15T17:54:34Z jmercouris: I could use a lambda of course... 2021-03-15T17:54:39Z Bike: (mapcan (lambda (x) (when x (list (format nil "~a" x))))) 2021-03-15T17:54:43Z Bike: er, plus the list 2021-03-15T17:54:46Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-15T17:55:16Z jmercouris: aha, i see, thanks 2021-03-15T17:55:20Z Bike: or just (loop for x in list when x do ...) 2021-03-15T17:55:24Z Bike: er 2021-03-15T17:55:27Z Bike: when x collect ... 2021-03-15T17:55:29Z jmercouris: I don't think th eloop example woorks 2021-03-15T17:55:31Z jmercouris: as written 2021-03-15T17:55:33Z Bike: bugs all over the place today 2021-03-15T17:55:34Z jmercouris: OK, you've already fixed it 11 2021-03-15T17:55:45Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2021-03-15T17:56:41Z alanz_ joined #lisp 2021-03-15T17:56:43Z adlai: Bike: did you figure out the format pprinting issue? 2021-03-15T17:57:01Z Bike: i figured out a workaround that gives me something good enough 2021-03-15T17:57:53Z Tordek quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-15T17:58:22Z sauvin quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-15T17:58:39Z adlai: fiddlerwoaroof: "separable from, or merely link (or bind by name) to the interfaces of," is usually the problematic line 2021-03-15T17:59:07Z adlai: slap an LLGPL prefix on the Apache license and you might get much more precise complaints, if ever 2021-03-15T18:00:12Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-15T18:00:40Z jmercouris: or don't: https://www.cliki.net/LLGPL 2021-03-15T18:00:46Z jmercouris: disclaimer; I am not a lawyer 2021-03-15T18:00:50Z jmercouris: this is not legal advice 2021-03-15T18:03:56Z Inline quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-15T18:03:56Z hiroaki quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-15T18:03:56Z infra_red[m] quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-15T18:03:56Z alanz quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-15T18:03:56Z nkatte quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-15T18:03:56Z theruran quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-15T18:03:59Z alanz_ is now known as alanz 2021-03-15T18:05:11Z theruran_ joined #lisp 2021-03-15T18:05:11Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-03-15T18:05:11Z infra_red[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-15T18:05:15Z theruran_ quit (Changing host) 2021-03-15T18:05:15Z theruran_ joined #lisp 2021-03-15T18:05:24Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-03-15T18:06:24Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-15T18:07:55Z ey[m]1 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-15T18:07:58Z sepanko_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-15T18:07:58Z katco quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-15T18:07:58Z etimmons quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-15T18:08:00Z MrtnDk[m] quit (Ping timeout: 241 seconds) 2021-03-15T18:08:00Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 241 seconds) 2021-03-15T18:08:02Z tweet[m] quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-15T18:08:02Z Theora[m] quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-15T18:08:03Z equwal quit (Ping timeout: 249 seconds) 2021-03-15T18:08:04Z Gnuxie[m] quit (Ping timeout: 249 seconds) 2021-03-15T18:08:04Z kreyren quit (Ping timeout: 249 seconds) 2021-03-15T18:08:09Z cloudy[m] quit (Ping timeout: 247 seconds) 2021-03-15T18:08:09Z arichiardi[m] quit (Ping timeout: 247 seconds) 2021-03-15T18:08:09Z ms[m] quit (Ping timeout: 247 seconds) 2021-03-15T18:08:10Z arcontethegreat[ quit (Ping timeout: 247 seconds) 2021-03-15T18:08:23Z harlchen[m]1 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-15T18:08:39Z mm[m] quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-15T18:08:40Z quanta[m] quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-15T18:08:40Z even4void[m] quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-15T18:09:26Z sunwukong quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-15T18:09:28Z loke[m] quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-15T18:09:28Z dmiles[m] quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-15T18:09:28Z susam quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-15T18:09:28Z ThaEwat quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-15T18:09:54Z infra_red[m] quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-15T18:10:36Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-15T18:14:28Z Tordek joined #lisp 2021-03-15T18:15:25Z adlai: don't put the ANAL back in "IANAL" 2021-03-15T18:15:30Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-15T18:15:45Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-15T18:18:26Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-03-15T18:19:41Z jonatack_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-15T18:20:10Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-03-15T18:21:45Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-15T18:21:49Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-15T18:23:37Z scymtym joined #lisp 2021-03-15T18:24:46Z andrei-n quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-15T18:28:01Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-15T18:28:32Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-15T18:31:19Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-15T18:33:00Z supercoven joined #lisp 2021-03-15T18:34:08Z adlai: my understanding of the role of a software license is that first and foremost it is a text for humans, rather than a compiler 2021-03-15T18:34:57Z adlai: so if the text you want humans giving their compilers is not dependent on zillions of different definitions, you don't need much text for the humans either. 2021-03-15T18:36:28Z infra_red[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-15T18:36:52Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-15T18:37:11Z adlai: one elementary test for a software license is whether it is versioned; e.g., the copy of the Apache license that I happened to have nearby, ends with "Licensed under the Apache License, Version 2.0 (the "License");", which is already a bad sign 2021-03-15T18:38:04Z adlai: iirc the LLGPL was written for the LGPL two-point-something, and the original GPL is now beyond three, while the LGPL probably just got s/2/3/ed 2021-03-15T18:38:39Z adlai: if these things were text for compilers AND humans, you could ask prolog whether there's a conflict. good luck with that. 2021-03-15T18:40:51Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-15T18:41:07Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-15T18:43:26Z kslt1 quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-03-15T18:51:18Z rixard quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-15T18:51:20Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-15T18:51:44Z rixard joined #lisp 2021-03-15T18:52:36Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-15T18:52:55Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-15T18:56:52Z arcontethegreat[ joined #lisp 2021-03-15T18:56:52Z arichiardi[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-15T18:56:52Z ms[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-15T18:56:52Z etimmons joined #lisp 2021-03-15T18:56:53Z loke[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-15T18:56:53Z katco joined #lisp 2021-03-15T18:56:53Z kreyren joined #lisp 2021-03-15T18:56:53Z sunwukong joined #lisp 2021-03-15T18:56:53Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2021-03-15T18:56:53Z dmiles[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-15T18:56:53Z quanta[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-15T18:56:53Z tweet[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-15T18:56:53Z ThaEwat joined #lisp 2021-03-15T18:56:53Z susam joined #lisp 2021-03-15T18:56:54Z even4void[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-15T18:56:54Z Gnuxie[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-15T18:56:58Z Theora[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-15T18:56:59Z MrtnDk[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-15T18:56:59Z harlchen[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-15T18:56:59Z ey[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-15T18:56:59Z equwal joined #lisp 2021-03-15T18:57:00Z cloudy[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-15T18:57:00Z sepanko_ joined #lisp 2021-03-15T18:57:01Z mm[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-15T19:01:23Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-15T19:01:35Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-15T19:01:41Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-15T19:03:31Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-15T19:04:30Z lottaquestions_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-15T19:04:51Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-15T19:05:54Z wooden quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-15T19:09:13Z me_at_drewc_ca joined #lisp 2021-03-15T19:09:15Z villanella1 joined #lisp 2021-03-15T19:09:16Z zigpaw107 joined #lisp 2021-03-15T19:09:25Z azrazalea_ joined #lisp 2021-03-15T19:09:27Z lottaquestions joined #lisp 2021-03-15T19:09:46Z docl_ joined #lisp 2021-03-15T19:09:46Z pok_ joined #lisp 2021-03-15T19:09:46Z add^__ joined #lisp 2021-03-15T19:10:01Z nitrix_ joined #lisp 2021-03-15T19:11:06Z wooden joined #lisp 2021-03-15T19:11:06Z wooden quit (Changing host) 2021-03-15T19:11:06Z wooden joined #lisp 2021-03-15T19:11:17Z kbtr joined #lisp 2021-03-15T19:11:22Z stux|RC-- joined #lisp 2021-03-15T19:11:23Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-15T19:11:23Z drewc quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-15T19:11:23Z azrazalea quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-15T19:11:23Z docl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-15T19:11:23Z pok quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-15T19:11:23Z add^_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-15T19:11:23Z fiddlerwoaroof quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-15T19:11:23Z stux|RC-only quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-15T19:11:23Z tessier quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-15T19:11:23Z kbtr_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-15T19:11:23Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-15T19:11:23Z nitrix quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-15T19:11:23Z zigpaw10 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-15T19:11:25Z pok_ is now known as pok 2021-03-15T19:11:31Z tessier_ joined #lisp 2021-03-15T19:11:38Z fiddlerwoaroof_ joined #lisp 2021-03-15T19:11:51Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-15T19:12:10Z warweasle joined #lisp 2021-03-15T19:13:15Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2021-03-15T19:14:58Z DHARMAKAYA joined #lisp 2021-03-15T19:15:21Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-15T19:17:44Z andreyorst joined #lisp 2021-03-15T19:20:20Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-15T19:21:11Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2021-03-15T19:24:57Z amerigo joined #lisp 2021-03-15T19:26:18Z jonatack_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-15T19:27:12Z nitrix_ is now known as nitrix 2021-03-15T19:27:38Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-15T19:28:42Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-03-15T19:29:06Z taof joined #lisp 2021-03-15T19:31:37Z rgherdt_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-15T19:31:50Z spacebat2 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-15T19:32:08Z spacebat2 joined #lisp 2021-03-15T19:32:22Z VincentVega joined #lisp 2021-03-15T19:32:27Z joast quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-15T19:32:35Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2021-03-15T19:34:43Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-15T19:34:49Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-15T19:36:55Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-15T19:39:07Z jonatack_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-15T19:40:20Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-03-15T19:42:45Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-15T19:46:25Z cosimone quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-15T19:48:49Z jprajzne quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-03-15T19:50:29Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2021-03-15T19:51:17Z kevingal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-15T19:53:51Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2021-03-15T19:56:11Z vhost- quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8) 2021-03-15T19:57:43Z waleee-cl joined #lisp 2021-03-15T20:05:16Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-15T20:07:59Z adlai: what's the best place for duck-typing a generic function? [current competitors are no-applicable-methods and compute-, although maybe I've missed something] 2021-03-15T20:08:48Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-03-15T20:08:49Z adlai: I guess an unspecialized defmethod, although that violates the unstated constraint of "without adding a method to the generic function in question" 2021-03-15T20:09:08Z nkatte joined #lisp 2021-03-15T20:10:09Z adlai: clhs no-next-method 2021-03-15T20:10:10Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_no_nex.htm 2021-03-15T20:10:19Z adlai always forgets at least onething 2021-03-15T20:11:09Z adlai: maybe someday i'll stfu and port sheeple to clos, but -- not today 2021-03-15T20:13:19Z adlai should probably sharpen what is meant by "duck-typing a generic function" 2021-03-15T20:13:36Z caret quit (Quit: Bye Felicia) 2021-03-15T20:13:50Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-15T20:14:04Z adlai: since the ideal of duck-typing is that there are no more defmethods, nor defun, and funcallable-instance actually gets standardised 2021-03-15T20:14:21Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-15T20:14:25Z adlai left #lisp 2021-03-15T20:15:55Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-03-15T20:19:24Z vhost- joined #lisp 2021-03-15T20:21:00Z abhixec joined #lisp 2021-03-15T20:24:17Z jmercouris: is there a way to force compilation errors to reappear? 2021-03-15T20:24:25Z jmercouris: I do slime-reload-system and it doesn't show me all the compilation errors 2021-03-15T20:29:31Z Nilby: (asdf:load-system :foo :force t) 2021-03-15T20:30:21Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-15T20:31:28Z jmercouris: anyway to do that via slime? 2021-03-15T20:31:31Z jmercouris: some sort of slime equivalent? 2021-03-15T20:31:49Z jmercouris: I see, "force-load-system" 2021-03-15T20:31:51Z jmercouris: the order changes 2021-03-15T20:32:07Z jmercouris: no wait, still no warnings... 2021-03-15T20:32:46Z jmercouris: I had to restart the REPL and force to get warnings 2021-03-15T20:34:40Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-15T20:35:51Z Bike: having to restart the repl makes it sound like the warnings were no longer a problem, like if you had (defun foo () *var*) (defvar *var*) 2021-03-15T20:35:51Z travv0 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-15T20:37:03Z travv0 joined #lisp 2021-03-15T20:38:31Z marusich joined #lisp 2021-03-15T20:39:59Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-15T20:44:15Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-15T20:46:39Z jbgg quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-15T20:47:21Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-03-15T20:48:27Z phantomics: Hey all, quick question: am I correct in thinking that there's no way for CL to tell the difference between a symbol input as ABC and a symbol input at |ABC|? Apart from the presence of lowercase letters in a symbol name, there's no inherent quality that sets a pipe-quoted symbol apart from other symbols, right? 2021-03-15T20:49:36Z supercoven quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-15T20:49:54Z Bike: depending on how the readtable-case is set up there's some different behavior there, but you're right to think that quotation isn't a property that sticks around 2021-03-15T20:50:18Z Bike: the symbol name is just a string. there's no notation of quoting or anything. (symbol-name '|123|) => "123" 2021-03-15T20:50:36Z trubi joined #lisp 2021-03-15T20:51:10Z ficl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-15T20:51:14Z yitzi quit (Quit: yitzi) 2021-03-15T20:51:33Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-15T20:51:37Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-15T20:51:46Z jbgg joined #lisp 2021-03-15T20:52:06Z phantomics: Bike: makes sense, thanks 2021-03-15T20:54:29Z lottaquestions quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-15T20:55:41Z dmc00 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-15T20:56:45Z Tordek quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-15T20:56:45Z dhil quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-15T20:56:45Z Posterdati quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-15T20:56:45Z albusp quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-15T20:56:45Z dddddd quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-15T20:56:45Z gum quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-15T20:56:45Z TMA quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-15T20:56:45Z herlocks- quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-15T20:56:45Z penguwin quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-15T20:56:45Z himmAllRight quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-15T20:56:45Z MetaYan quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-15T20:57:19Z Tordek joined #lisp 2021-03-15T20:57:19Z dhil joined #lisp 2021-03-15T20:57:19Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2021-03-15T20:57:19Z albusp joined #lisp 2021-03-15T20:57:19Z dddddd joined #lisp 2021-03-15T20:57:19Z gum joined #lisp 2021-03-15T20:57:19Z TMA joined #lisp 2021-03-15T20:57:19Z herlocks- joined #lisp 2021-03-15T20:57:19Z penguwin joined #lisp 2021-03-15T20:57:19Z himmAllRight joined #lisp 2021-03-15T20:57:19Z MetaYan joined #lisp 2021-03-15T20:57:29Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-15T20:57:58Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-15T21:00:21Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-15T21:06:34Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-03-15T21:10:21Z herlocks- quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-15T21:10:48Z herlocksholmes joined #lisp 2021-03-15T21:12:34Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-15T21:12:50Z sabrac quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2021-03-15T21:13:45Z pve quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-15T21:14:18Z nmg quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-15T21:14:33Z nmg joined #lisp 2021-03-15T21:16:44Z villanella1 quit (Quit: villanella1) 2021-03-15T21:19:10Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-15T21:20:33Z dhil quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-15T21:20:37Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-15T21:20:57Z dhil joined #lisp 2021-03-15T21:21:45Z Klopsch: Hi. Little question regarding common lisp. I want to do 2 function calls in one path of an if-statement 2021-03-15T21:21:55Z Klopsch: I am currently misusing let 2021-03-15T21:21:56Z Klopsch: (if T (let () (print "asdf")(print "asdf"))) 2021-03-15T21:22:12Z Klopsch: Is there a better alternative? 2021-03-15T21:22:41Z Bike: progn, or more likely cond 2021-03-15T21:22:50Z Bike: (cond (whatever (print ...) (print ...))) 2021-03-15T21:23:01Z Bike: or, if there really is just one condition, (when condition (print ...) (print ...)) 2021-03-15T21:25:21Z Klopsch: Thank you. This sounds great for my current use. Is there a common way for this kind of block / multiple function calls 2021-03-15T21:26:37Z Bike: I'm not sure what you're asking, sorry. 2021-03-15T21:27:31Z Klopsch: No problem. Thank you for your help 2021-03-15T21:27:38Z Klopsch: Now it looks a lot better 2021-03-15T21:38:03Z warweasle is now known as warweasle_afk 2021-03-15T21:40:19Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-03-15T21:44:06Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-15T21:45:50Z Klopsch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-15T21:46:47Z Klopsch_ joined #lisp 2021-03-15T21:46:49Z cosimone quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-15T21:47:06Z Klopsch_ quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-15T21:47:07Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-15T21:47:23Z Klopsch joined #lisp 2021-03-15T21:49:35Z aeth: Klopsch: the common way is PROGN, as Bike said 2021-03-15T21:50:06Z aeth: (progn (print "hi") (print 1) (print 2) (print 3)) 2021-03-15T21:50:38Z aeth: most forms where you want to do that already have an "implicit progn" (meaning you don't have to do that), but IF is probably the most common place where you need PROGN 2021-03-15T21:54:58Z sturm__ joined #lisp 2021-03-15T22:03:21Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-15T22:06:56Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-03-15T22:09:18Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-15T22:10:56Z akkad is now known as ober 2021-03-15T22:10:58Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-03-15T22:11:27Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-03-15T22:13:57Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-15T22:13:57Z amerigo quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-15T22:17:40Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-15T22:18:27Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 28.0.50)) 2021-03-15T22:25:55Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-15T22:26:53Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-15T22:30:53Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-15T22:31:20Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-03-15T22:33:42Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-15T22:33:43Z dbotton quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-15T22:40:21Z kslt1 joined #lisp 2021-03-15T22:42:41Z schweers quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 28.0.50)) 2021-03-15T22:42:50Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-15T22:45:25Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-15T22:48:43Z rozenglass joined #lisp 2021-03-15T22:50:15Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-15T22:51:59Z DHARMAKAYA quit (Quit: Turning off a portion of this simulation.) 2021-03-15T22:54:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-15T22:54:09Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-15T22:55:51Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-15T22:56:10Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2021-03-15T22:57:03Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-15T22:57:23Z stux|RC-- quit (Quit: Aloha!) 2021-03-15T23:00:15Z stux|RC-only joined #lisp 2021-03-15T23:00:24Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-15T23:01:05Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-15T23:01:56Z creat quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-15T23:02:36Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2021-03-15T23:02:59Z spacebat2 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-15T23:03:38Z _whitelogger quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-15T23:06:19Z sturm__ quit (Quit: sturm__) 2021-03-15T23:07:53Z spacebat2 joined #lisp 2021-03-15T23:10:52Z creat joined #lisp 2021-03-15T23:13:14Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2021-03-15T23:13:19Z _whitelogger__ joined #lisp 2021-03-15T23:13:40Z nmg_ joined #lisp 2021-03-15T23:14:48Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-03-15T23:14:53Z _whitelogger_ joined #lisp 2021-03-15T23:14:58Z nmg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-15T23:16:28Z drbluefall joined #lisp 2021-03-15T23:18:43Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-15T23:27:14Z cchristiansen joined #lisp 2021-03-15T23:29:10Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-03-15T23:29:30Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-15T23:29:58Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-15T23:30:44Z xsperry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-15T23:30:57Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-15T23:31:38Z cosimone` joined #lisp 2021-03-15T23:32:57Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-15T23:33:46Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-15T23:33:48Z xsperry joined #lisp 2021-03-15T23:40:03Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-15T23:44:04Z warweasle_afk quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 26.1) 2021-03-15T23:45:57Z curtosis joined #lisp 2021-03-15T23:47:27Z _jrjsmrtn quit (Quit: Bye !) 2021-03-15T23:48:21Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp 2021-03-15T23:52:31Z cosimone` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-15T23:52:40Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-03-16T00:07:50Z trubi quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-16T00:11:27Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-16T00:11:44Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2021-03-16T00:18:48Z dhil quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-16T00:23:51Z DHARMAKAYA joined #lisp 2021-03-16T00:24:04Z casual_friday quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-16T00:24:23Z casual_friday joined #lisp 2021-03-16T00:24:46Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-16T00:26:39Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2021-03-16T00:34:26Z Xach: mfiano: slicer is missing 2021-03-16T00:35:47Z mfiano: Xach: sorry again (isn't this the second time that happened?) 2021-03-16T00:36:18Z mfiano needs to get better about merging my local branches 2021-03-16T00:37:12Z Xach: slicer no slicing 2021-03-16T01:16:10Z ccl-logbot joined #lisp 2021-03-16T01:16:10Z 2021-03-16T01:16:10Z names: ccl-logbot oxum diamondbond_ v3ga_ ramus alfred188 hiredman_ cods_ remexre_ ski_ [df]_ Iolo bonz060_ leo_song spal_ fengshaun_ nmg spxy_ mgsk- minion Josh_2` specbot sm2n_ quazimodo casual_friday DHARMAKAYA anticrisis __jrjsmrtn__ curtosis xsperry cchristiansen _whitelogger_ slyrus _whitelogger__ _whitelogger creat spacebat2 stux|RC-only notzmv rozenglass kslt1 contrapunctus karlosz hendursaga Klopsch herlocksholmes MetaYan himmAllRight penguwin TMA gum 2021-03-16T01:16:10Z names: dddddd albusp Posterdati Tordek jbgg marusich travv0 abhixec vhost- Nilby nkatte waleee-cl jprajzne jonatack_ taof gigetoo andreyorst White_Flame fiddlerwoaroof_ tessier_ kbtr wooden nitrix add^__ pok docl_ azrazalea_ zigpaw107 me_at_drewc_ca mm[m] sepanko_ cloudy[m] equwal harlchen[m] MrtnDk[m] ey[m] Theora[m] even4void[m] Gnuxie[m] susam ThaEwat tweet[m] quanta[m] dmiles[m] dieggsy sunwukong kreyren katco loke[m] etimmons ms[m] arichiardi[m] 2021-03-16T01:16:10Z names: arcontethegreat[ rixard infra_red[m] galex-713 scymtym amb007 hiroaki theruran_ alanz charles` jdz voidlily APic Alfr epony mindCrime_ stux|RC IPmonger tiwEllien ggoes kaiwulf bitmapper gitgood Bike Sheilong pranavats skapata bjorkintosh zaquest vegansbane6963 sz0 mrchampion hjudt flazh Demosthenex madage semz Sweedish perrier-jouet X-Scale matryoshka cognemo Oddity entel cpape corpix mathrick_ ineiros elflng freshmaker666 terrorjack Odin- terpri_ jurov 2021-03-16T01:16:10Z names: walex Necktwi paul0 edgar-rft jello_pudding kingcons cyraxjoe grobe0ba FennecCode engblom renzhi Noisytoot thijso SumoSud0 dim jgkamat tychoish |3b| cg505 cross jealousmonk grfn mrSpec XachX sukaeto1 tgbugs jxy Patternmaster srji shinohai eagleflo glamas lonjil Mandus gabc guaqua frodef Cthulhux pyc hineios isoraqathedh mgr_ Grauwolf zupss Khisanth thecoffemaker wigust zymurgy gabiruh hhdave_ asdflkj saturn2 lowryder sxmx vsync xlei troydm bmansurov 2021-03-16T01:16:10Z names: Trieste Ekho brandonz snits brass save-lisp-or-die jfb4_ gensym rigidus datajerk daniel1302 Kabriel_ ferada_ matthewcroughan_ Ankhers SAL9000 aap nydel1 mtd___ HDurer_ hvxgr_ malm dvdmuckle z0d mtd_ tmf_ bkst_ luis samebchase- yonkunas emacsomancer pokes_ midre jonathan- kini Firedancer_ idxu Gromboli bugrum mgsk ft gpiero froggey amk flip214 Xach pacon Lord_Nightmare copec madand_ HiRE NULLean deltab ffwacom splittist mjl fitzsim jackdaniel shenghi 2021-03-16T01:16:10Z names: gingerale moon-child mseddon teej hvxgr hiroaki1 beach CrazyEddy dtman34 hdasch micro _death nullman d4ryus Juonu Nikotiini fouric antoszka ecraven borodust astronavt___ dyelar SlashLife cpt_nemo summerisle femi housel jerme_ GreaseMonkey gko Guest19918 avicenna lukego johs physpi luna_is_here gendl seisatsu drdo chewbranca mpontillo p_l sgithens ilmu eschatologist ck_ phantomics p9fn oldtopman Blkt ioa cartwright frgo theBlackDragon totoro2021 xantoz 2021-03-16T01:16:10Z names: thonkpod_ jrm acolarh Kingsy grumble madnificent lieven Fade Aurora_v_kosmose OlCe Colleen swflint dale krjt xristos felideon shrysr_ phoe kim_ plisp1 beaky CEnnis91 stylewarning drmeister bytesighs dnm billstclair griffinbyatt mgxm buoy49 Balooga rme jmercouris Grue`` loke`` nightfly gabot mister_m eMBee ober knobo easye keja_ aeth larme banjiewen__ em AdmiralBumbleBee interruptinuse shoshin zooey @fe[nl]ix nopf Guest99088 palter Krystof davros zxq2 2021-03-16T01:16:10Z names: alandipert ravndal chrpape jibanes KeyboardWorrier Yardanico sbryant devrtz_ justinmcp joga nullheroes markasoftware cyberlard phadthai pent jasom dunk mfiano winny jlpeters mood rotty tomaw nckx samebchase jackhill parisienne mr_yogurt rvirding Ziemas matijja patrixl selwyn russell-- jsatk conjunctive gaze__ Papa ozzloy xi trn sebboh 2021-03-16T01:18:08Z trubi joined #lisp 2021-03-16T01:18:29Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2021-03-16T01:18:30Z vaporatorius quit (Changing host) 2021-03-16T01:18:30Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2021-03-16T01:19:23Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-03-16T01:19:27Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-16T01:20:19Z lavaflow joined #lisp 2021-03-16T01:21:38Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-16T01:21:48Z sturm_ joined #lisp 2021-03-16T01:24:24Z curtosis is now known as curtosis[away] 2021-03-16T01:24:54Z curtosis[away] quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-16T01:26:37Z wxie joined #lisp 2021-03-16T01:33:37Z Josh_2` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-16T01:38:17Z gitgoood joined #lisp 2021-03-16T01:40:43Z gitgood quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-16T01:46:55Z remexre_ is now known as remexre 2021-03-16T01:49:12Z DHARMAKAYA quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-16T01:49:50Z taof quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-16T01:50:43Z v3ga_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-16T01:51:08Z v3ga_ joined #lisp 2021-03-16T01:54:30Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-03-16T01:57:38Z Volt_ joined #lisp 2021-03-16T01:58:26Z taof joined #lisp 2021-03-16T02:02:28Z sturm_ quit (Quit: sturm_) 2021-03-16T02:03:55Z taof quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-16T02:05:17Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-16T02:08:56Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-03-16T02:09:30Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-03-16T02:17:54Z taof joined #lisp 2021-03-16T02:18:13Z trubi quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-16T02:23:16Z curtosis joined #lisp 2021-03-16T02:24:47Z aindilis joined #lisp 2021-03-16T02:28:00Z rixard quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-16T02:28:28Z rixard joined #lisp 2021-03-16T02:33:06Z sturm_ joined #lisp 2021-03-16T02:34:39Z drbluefall joined #lisp 2021-03-16T02:35:14Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-16T02:37:50Z akoana joined #lisp 2021-03-16T02:42:26Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-16T02:48:02Z _whitelogger_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-16T02:51:48Z _whitelogger_ joined #lisp 2021-03-16T03:02:22Z abhixec quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-16T03:04:59Z curtosis is now known as curtosis[away] 2021-03-16T03:08:27Z long4mud joined #lisp 2021-03-16T03:09:33Z kaiwulf quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-16T03:15:03Z Jesin joined #lisp 2021-03-16T03:17:34Z taof quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-16T03:20:42Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-16T03:28:07Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-03-16T03:30:39Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2021-03-16T03:33:42Z taof joined #lisp 2021-03-16T03:38:10Z sturm_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-16T03:38:35Z taof quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-16T03:43:15Z taof joined #lisp 2021-03-16T03:45:22Z jonatack_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-16T03:47:51Z curtosis[away] quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-16T03:52:07Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-16T03:52:14Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-03-16T03:54:03Z vsync quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-16T03:57:23Z vsync joined #lisp 2021-03-16T03:57:29Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-03-16T04:01:04Z elusive joined #lisp 2021-03-16T04:02:23Z Alfr is now known as Guest60567 2021-03-16T04:02:27Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-03-16T04:05:07Z Guest60567 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-16T04:06:05Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2021-03-16T04:06:54Z Volt_ quit (Quit: ) 2021-03-16T04:07:45Z taof left #lisp 2021-03-16T04:15:02Z _whitelogger_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-16T04:17:14Z _whitelogger_ joined #lisp 2021-03-16T04:21:19Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-16T04:22:16Z trubi joined #lisp 2021-03-16T04:22:59Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-16T04:23:48Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-16T04:24:41Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-16T04:26:48Z phantomics: Morning beach 2021-03-16T04:30:10Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-16T04:35:55Z wxie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-16T04:36:16Z wxie joined #lisp 2021-03-16T04:38:37Z vsync quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-16T04:42:10Z vsync joined #lisp 2021-03-16T04:43:04Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-16T04:43:44Z hjudt quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-16T04:44:22Z wxie quit (Quit: wxie) 2021-03-16T04:47:43Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-16T05:00:00Z Iolo quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5+deb4 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-16T05:04:29Z Iolo joined #lisp 2021-03-16T05:13:49Z susam: Good morning, beach! 2021-03-16T05:13:52Z susam: Good morning, everyone! 2021-03-16T05:16:33Z nkatte quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-16T05:29:29Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-03-16T05:29:39Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-16T05:30:42Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-16T05:33:14Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-16T05:35:59Z semz joined #lisp 2021-03-16T05:40:23Z trubi quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-16T05:41:15Z mm[m] left #lisp 2021-03-16T05:44:59Z aggin joined #lisp 2021-03-16T05:46:17Z ykm joined #lisp 2021-03-16T05:49:19Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-16T05:52:02Z ykm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-16T05:53:39Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-16T05:53:45Z mathrick_ is now known as mathrick 2021-03-16T05:54:35Z akoana left #lisp 2021-03-16T05:59:57Z SAL9000 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-16T06:04:38Z elusive quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-16T06:07:05Z Sheilong quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-16T06:09:13Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-03-16T06:09:47Z aggin quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-16T06:11:54Z sauvin joined #lisp 2021-03-16T06:14:42Z karlosz quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-16T06:21:35Z hjudt joined #lisp 2021-03-16T06:27:02Z _whitelogger_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-16T06:29:13Z _whitelogger_ joined #lisp 2021-03-16T06:29:26Z jello_pudding quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-16T06:29:42Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-16T06:34:11Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-16T06:35:42Z jello_pudding joined #lisp 2021-03-16T06:36:44Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2021-03-16T06:41:00Z shrdlu68: Good morning lispers! 2021-03-16T06:42:14Z White_Flame: good morning, mr winograd 2021-03-16T06:43:43Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-16T06:44:00Z dni53363 joined #lisp 2021-03-16T06:45:56Z shrdlu68: It's been a while since I was here, and I miss writing CL. 2021-03-16T06:46:59Z White_Flame: CL certainly makes you miss it when you're not writing it 2021-03-16T06:47:52Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-03-16T06:48:15Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-16T06:50:52Z dni53363: can u hear me? 2021-03-16T06:51:01Z dni53363: testing, testing. 1,2,3 2021-03-16T06:51:18Z dni53363: hello world? 2021-03-16T06:52:19Z rickygee joined #lisp 2021-03-16T06:52:31Z White_Flame: dni53363: yes 2021-03-16T06:52:41Z dni53363: ty 2021-03-16T06:52:45Z dni53363: cheers 2021-03-16T06:55:07Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-16T07:03:08Z dni53363 left #lisp 2021-03-16T07:03:35Z jello_pudding quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-16T07:09:19Z jello_pudding joined #lisp 2021-03-16T07:10:42Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2021-03-16T07:12:48Z ck_: shrdlu68: eta oin? 2021-03-16T07:12:49Z ficl joined #lisp 2021-03-16T07:16:01Z shrdlu68: ck_: Nope, Terry winograd's shrdlu. There's also a short story about a "sentient linotype machine" 2021-03-16T07:21:47Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2021-03-16T07:25:22Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-16T07:25:52Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-16T07:27:00Z ck_: shrdlu68: that's what I meant -- a chapter in one of Hofstadter's books that talks about it contains the full phrase "ETAOIN SHRDLU" unless I'm misremembering 2021-03-16T07:30:25Z beach: That's it. 2021-03-16T07:31:08Z beach: It is also supposedly the frequency order of letters in English. 2021-03-16T07:33:17Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-16T07:35:57Z cods_ is now known as cods 2021-03-16T07:36:02Z cods quit (Changing host) 2021-03-16T07:36:02Z cods joined #lisp 2021-03-16T07:37:42Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-16T07:44:21Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-03-16T07:52:04Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-16T07:52:21Z wxie joined #lisp 2021-03-16T07:53:18Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-03-16T07:54:41Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-16T08:02:26Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-16T08:03:38Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-16T08:03:46Z rickygee quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-16T08:04:06Z lowryder joined #lisp 2021-03-16T08:07:42Z hendursaga quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-16T08:07:50Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-16T08:08:12Z vutral_ joined #lisp 2021-03-16T08:08:19Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-03-16T08:12:13Z pve joined #lisp 2021-03-16T08:12:53Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-03-16T08:13:24Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-03-16T08:16:43Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-16T08:18:52Z Oddity- joined #lisp 2021-03-16T08:20:05Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-16T08:22:50Z Oddity quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-16T08:23:50Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-16T08:27:51Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-03-16T08:37:25Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-16T08:46:55Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-16T08:48:00Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-16T08:48:27Z lowryder joined #lisp 2021-03-16T08:59:50Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-16T09:04:20Z joga quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-16T09:04:35Z joga joined #lisp 2021-03-16T09:12:14Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2021-03-16T09:12:42Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-16T09:12:59Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2021-03-16T09:16:11Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2021-03-16T09:20:46Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-16T09:21:08Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-16T09:38:41Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-16T09:42:47Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-16T09:43:12Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-16T09:55:11Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-16T10:00:06Z vegansbane6963 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-03-16T10:05:16Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-16T10:05:47Z Alfr quit (Killed (beckett.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))) 2021-03-16T10:05:51Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-03-16T10:10:01Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-16T10:10:26Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-03-16T10:10:34Z jibanes quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-16T10:10:44Z kevingal_ joined #lisp 2021-03-16T10:10:49Z jibanes joined #lisp 2021-03-16T10:15:20Z kreyren quit (Changing host) 2021-03-16T10:15:20Z kreyren joined #lisp 2021-03-16T10:15:20Z kreyren quit (Changing host) 2021-03-16T10:15:20Z kreyren joined #lisp 2021-03-16T10:16:25Z vutral_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-16T10:19:39Z andreyorst quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8) 2021-03-16T10:19:56Z andreyorst joined #lisp 2021-03-16T10:20:00Z schweers joined #lisp 2021-03-16T10:22:40Z Major_Biscuit joined #lisp 2021-03-16T10:23:19Z tfb joined #lisp 2021-03-16T10:24:17Z lottaquestions joined #lisp 2021-03-16T10:30:26Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-03-16T10:33:25Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-16T10:37:21Z schweers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-16T10:37:57Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-16T10:39:03Z surabax joined #lisp 2021-03-16T10:39:08Z dhil joined #lisp 2021-03-16T10:40:04Z beach` joined #lisp 2021-03-16T10:40:46Z beach quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-03-16T10:40:50Z beach` is now known as beach 2021-03-16T10:43:06Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2021-03-16T10:43:55Z ficl quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-16T10:45:21Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-03-16T10:48:13Z vaporatorius quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-16T10:53:02Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-16T10:53:43Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-03-16T10:56:18Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-16T11:03:15Z cchristiansen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-16T11:09:13Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-16T11:10:22Z cosimone quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-16T11:10:38Z pve_ joined #lisp 2021-03-16T11:13:53Z pve quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-16T11:17:24Z eden joined #lisp 2021-03-16T11:18:33Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-16T11:18:58Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-16T11:21:22Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-16T11:42:20Z asarch joined #lisp 2021-03-16T11:43:42Z asarch: How can you make the sed part?: cat file.txt | sed 's/},/&\n/g' 2021-03-16T11:44:31Z ljavorsk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-16T11:45:04Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-03-16T11:46:55Z eden quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-16T11:47:49Z Xach: asarch: cl-ppcre would be one option 2021-03-16T11:48:11Z sm2n_ is now known as sm2n 2021-03-16T11:52:20Z eden joined #lisp 2021-03-16T11:53:48Z Major_Biscuit joined #lisp 2021-03-16T11:57:46Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-16T12:03:29Z schweers joined #lisp 2021-03-16T12:04:14Z Stanley00 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-16T12:05:17Z long4mud quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-16T12:14:17Z asarch: What's the difference between a string (an array) and a simple-array of type char? 2021-03-16T12:14:49Z Xach: asarch: the simple-array is not specialized to contain only characters 2021-03-16T12:15:21Z Xach: Sorry, I responded too quickly. 2021-03-16T12:16:03Z Xach: asarch: a simple-array of type character is a simple-string, which is one kind of string. 2021-03-16T12:16:05Z asarch: How can you traverse the simple-array content? (loop for element across my-array do ...) is not type vector 2021-03-16T12:16:11Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-16T12:16:36Z Xach: asarch: that is one correct way to do it. 2021-03-16T12:17:08Z Xach: if the code signals an error, the data is the source of the error. 2021-03-16T12:17:09Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-03-16T12:17:47Z asarch: The simple-array char is from the (cl-ppcre:split "}," line) output 2021-03-16T12:18:39Z Xach: asarch: cl-ppcre:split returns a list. 2021-03-16T12:18:51Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-16T12:19:09Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-16T12:19:37Z asarch: A list?! 2021-03-16T12:19:45Z asarch: Ok :-P 2021-03-16T12:19:54Z Xach: asarch: try it and see. 2021-03-16T12:20:03Z asarch: Yeah, it worked! 2021-03-16T12:21:29Z asarch: Is there a way to know what is something? E.g. (let ((buffer (foo))) (what-is buffer))? 2021-03-16T12:21:49Z Xach: asarch: there are many ways to learn more about buffer. inspection is one option. 2021-03-16T12:21:56Z Xach: describe, type-of, class-of too. 2021-03-16T12:23:06Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-16T12:31:43Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-03-16T12:35:08Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-16T12:36:40Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-16T12:40:52Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-16T12:55:05Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-16T12:55:31Z yottabyte joined #lisp 2021-03-16T12:55:43Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-03-16T12:56:32Z warweasle joined #lisp 2021-03-16T13:01:46Z caret joined #lisp 2021-03-16T13:03:14Z luis3 joined #lisp 2021-03-16T13:04:26Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-16T13:06:42Z luis quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-16T13:06:42Z luis3 is now known as luis 2021-03-16T13:14:37Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-16T13:16:23Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-03-16T13:16:30Z prxq joined #lisp 2021-03-16T13:17:14Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-16T13:25:17Z yitzi joined #lisp 2021-03-16T13:28:15Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-16T13:28:21Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-03-16T13:32:27Z hiroaki1 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-16T13:33:16Z hiroaki1 joined #lisp 2021-03-16T13:33:38Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-16T13:37:53Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-16T13:44:58Z cosimone quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-03-16T13:45:34Z a0 joined #lisp 2021-03-16T13:48:29Z eden quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-16T13:53:46Z tinhatcat joined #lisp 2021-03-16T13:54:34Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2021-03-16T13:55:16Z Josh_2: Good afternoon 2021-03-16T13:55:42Z tinhatcat quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-16T13:56:26Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-16T13:57:25Z SAL9000 joined #lisp 2021-03-16T14:10:05Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-16T14:12:16Z asarch: Thank you Xach, thank you very much :-) 2021-03-16T14:12:18Z asarch: Have a nice day 2021-03-16T14:12:22Z jonatack_ quit (Quit: jonatack_) 2021-03-16T14:12:22Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-16T14:12:46Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-16T14:20:44Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-16T14:21:09Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-16T14:22:02Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-16T14:24:34Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-16T14:26:16Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2021-03-16T14:30:32Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-03-16T14:38:26Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-16T14:43:46Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-16T14:44:43Z Stanley00 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-16T14:45:03Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-16T14:45:11Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2021-03-16T14:46:01Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp 2021-03-16T14:47:35Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-16T14:48:14Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-16T14:49:48Z Sheilong joined #lisp 2021-03-16T14:50:48Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-03-16T14:52:28Z nkatte joined #lisp 2021-03-16T14:56:52Z Stanley00 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-16T14:57:06Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2021-03-16T14:58:01Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-16T15:01:36Z heisig joined #lisp 2021-03-16T15:01:52Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-16T15:09:40Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-03-16T15:10:45Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-03-16T15:16:32Z Stanley00 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-16T15:23:01Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2021-03-16T15:29:44Z Stanley|00 joined #lisp 2021-03-16T15:30:32Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-16T15:31:09Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-16T15:31:53Z Stanley|00 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-16T15:32:27Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2021-03-16T15:34:08Z Stanley|00 joined #lisp 2021-03-16T15:34:28Z Stanley|00 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-16T15:34:59Z Stanley|00 joined #lisp 2021-03-16T15:38:19Z Stanley|00 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-16T15:38:22Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-16T15:41:50Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-16T15:41:56Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-16T15:54:06Z tfb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-16T15:54:18Z tfb joined #lisp 2021-03-16T15:54:54Z tfb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-16T15:55:06Z tfb joined #lisp 2021-03-16T15:55:14Z tfb quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-16T15:58:46Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-16T15:59:28Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2021-03-16T15:59:28Z vaporatorius quit (Changing host) 2021-03-16T15:59:28Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2021-03-16T15:59:44Z wooden quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-16T16:03:11Z varjagg joined #lisp 2021-03-16T16:04:04Z wooden joined #lisp 2021-03-16T16:04:04Z wooden quit (Changing host) 2021-03-16T16:04:04Z wooden joined #lisp 2021-03-16T16:07:13Z yitzi quit (Quit: yitzi) 2021-03-16T16:07:14Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-16T16:07:48Z yitzi joined #lisp 2021-03-16T16:09:24Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2021-03-16T16:09:30Z gitgoood is now known as gitgood 2021-03-16T16:11:25Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-16T16:11:29Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-16T16:15:06Z rgherdt left #lisp 2021-03-16T16:16:18Z jdz quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-16T16:21:12Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-03-16T16:22:39Z hiredman_ is now known as hiredman 2021-03-16T16:23:24Z jdz joined #lisp 2021-03-16T16:25:31Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-16T16:25:37Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2021-03-16T16:30:03Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-16T16:39:10Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-16T16:39:19Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-16T16:41:38Z schweers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-16T16:41:42Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-16T16:41:45Z schweers joined #lisp 2021-03-16T16:42:48Z bonz060_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-16T16:43:11Z bonz060 joined #lisp 2021-03-16T16:44:54Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-16T16:47:13Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-03-16T16:52:55Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-16T16:54:31Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-16T16:56:36Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-16T16:57:38Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-16T17:01:47Z Klopsch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-16T17:02:21Z Klopsch joined #lisp 2021-03-16T17:02:22Z Klopsch quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-16T17:04:24Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-03-16T17:13:11Z Josh_2: Slow afternoon today 2021-03-16T17:13:20Z beach: Indeed! 2021-03-16T17:13:38Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-16T17:13:39Z Josh_2: How is your work coming along beach? 2021-03-16T17:13:56Z banjiewen__ quit 2021-03-16T17:13:58Z beach: Doing great thank you. Working on register allocation at the moment. What about you? 2021-03-16T17:14:12Z b20n joined #lisp 2021-03-16T17:19:03Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-16T17:20:17Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-03-16T17:24:37Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-03-16T17:25:33Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-16T17:31:51Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-16T17:33:08Z curtosis joined #lisp 2021-03-16T17:34:35Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-16T17:37:48Z ravndal quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-03-16T17:40:03Z ravndal joined #lisp 2021-03-16T17:40:47Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-03-16T17:41:57Z Josh_2: Yes what I'm working on is coming along nicely, It's my largest project yet 2021-03-16T17:43:25Z gareppa joined #lisp 2021-03-16T17:43:26Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-16T17:47:19Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-03-16T17:49:00Z gareppa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-16T17:50:13Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-16T17:50:30Z hendursa3 joined #lisp 2021-03-16T17:52:04Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-16T18:00:55Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-16T18:08:06Z a0 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-16T18:15:48Z sauvin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-16T18:17:58Z curtosis is now known as curtosis[away] 2021-03-16T18:18:28Z curtosis[away] quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-16T18:29:15Z waleee-cl joined #lisp 2021-03-16T18:29:24Z SAL9000 quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2021-03-16T18:34:05Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2021-03-16T18:34:07Z brandflake11 joined #lisp 2021-03-16T18:34:53Z brandflake11: Hello all, where is a good page/book chapter to learn about navigating packages in lisp? I am a bit confused on how to use multiple packages together and want to learn how to navigate them better. 2021-03-16T18:36:27Z Xach: brandflake11: i think practical common lisp offers useful info 2021-03-16T18:36:48Z brandflake11: Xach: Practical Common Lisp is pretty much the lisp bible, isn't it? 2021-03-16T18:37:10Z ck_: brandflake11: http://www.flownet.com/gat/packages.pdf is often recommended in the vicinity of discussions about packages 2021-03-16T18:37:56Z brandflake11: ck_: Thank you, I would have never found that on my own! 2021-03-16T18:40:53Z Xach: brandflake11: i like it 2021-03-16T18:40:59Z Xach: I don't like the flownet paper very much 2021-03-16T18:41:20Z Xach: To me it reads as though written by someone who thinks the package system is badly made, and wants to convince you of the same. 2021-03-16T18:41:34Z Xach: Despite accurate info in many respects, I think that's a big drawback. 2021-03-16T18:45:25Z caret quit (Quit: Bye Felicia) 2021-03-16T18:47:51Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-16T18:48:37Z tinhatcat joined #lisp 2021-03-16T18:49:36Z brandflake11: Xach: That is interesting. I guess the author didn't like it? 2021-03-16T18:49:53Z Xach: brandflake11: That is my impression. 2021-03-16T18:50:15Z Xach: Sort of like: "This is how it works. Can you believe how weird this is?" 2021-03-16T18:50:22Z tinhatcat quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-16T18:50:31Z brandflake11: Xach: lol, haters be hatin' I guess. XD 2021-03-16T18:50:50Z White_Flame: also, GENSYM basically supercedes all uses of GENTEMP 2021-03-16T18:50:50Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-16T18:50:52Z Xach: So, I don't think it presents anything blatantly inaccurate. But I would caution against agreement with its tone of "This is dumb" 2021-03-16T18:51:09Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-16T18:52:41Z brandflake11: Xach: Okay, will do! Thanks so much for your help! 2021-03-16T18:52:41Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-16T18:52:51Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-16T18:53:51Z Xach: Don't take my word for it either! Read some books and docs, look at the design, and maybe you too will think it's dumb. 2021-03-16T18:53:52Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-16T18:54:06Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-16T18:54:28Z brandflake11: Xach: Yeah, it's good to have critiques. It's much healthier than just saying everything is perfect. 2021-03-16T18:55:07Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-16T18:55:32Z Xach: brandflake11: an interesting thing about common lisp is that the people who use it mostly do so because they really like it. so there's a selection bias there too. it's less common to be forced to use it for school or employment. 2021-03-16T18:55:51Z Xach: If you hate the package system, you may not hang around and stick with CL, so 2021-03-16T18:57:21Z brandflake11: Xach: What would I go to then? I need the parentheses! XD C++ looks so ugly now after lisp! 2021-03-16T18:57:37Z brandflake11: Xach: Just kidding :D 2021-03-16T18:57:47Z FerroCerium joined #lisp 2021-03-16T18:58:34Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-16T18:59:01Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-16T18:59:32Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-16T19:00:00Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-16T19:00:45Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-16T19:02:34Z corpix quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-16T19:02:35Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-16T19:02:48Z corpix joined #lisp 2021-03-16T19:03:32Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-16T19:03:54Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-16T19:05:05Z FerroCerium quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-16T19:05:37Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-16T19:06:21Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-16T19:07:45Z Josh_2: brandflake11: you would just have to roll your own scheme :P 2021-03-16T19:07:56Z brandflake11: Josh_2: Oh no 2021-03-16T19:08:46Z White_Flame: and also the newer package-local-nicknames can make packages even better 2021-03-16T19:09:02Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-16T19:09:10Z White_Flame: since that alleviates some of the downsides of having a single flat namespace for packages 2021-03-16T19:09:28Z White_Flame: (wherein normal CL nicknames collide) 2021-03-16T19:10:00Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-16T19:10:09Z White_Flame: brandflake11: if you have any specific questions, feel free to ask, too 2021-03-16T19:10:48Z brandflake11: White_Flame: Thank you, I really appreciate it. I need to do reading first, but if I run into issues tht don't make sense, I'll come back here and ask. :) 2021-03-16T19:12:16Z jasom: Xach: I never got the sense that Ron dislikes the package system, but I think that paper *is* mostly about pointing out the "gotchas" that you might run into with it. 2021-03-16T19:13:01Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-16T19:13:09Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-16T19:13:09Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-16T19:13:26Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-16T19:14:38Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-16T19:14:53Z SP41 joined #lisp 2021-03-16T19:19:43Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-03-16T19:22:27Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-16T19:22:44Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-16T19:22:59Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-16T19:25:40Z brandfla` joined #lisp 2021-03-16T19:29:06Z _death: jasom: at the time he wrote another paper (lexicons) to present an alternative or a complementary to packages 2021-03-16T19:29:13Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-16T19:30:17Z brandflake11 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-16T19:33:55Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-16T19:35:48Z supercoven joined #lisp 2021-03-16T19:39:56Z schweers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-16T19:41:14Z rickygee joined #lisp 2021-03-16T19:41:15Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-16T19:44:08Z gko quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-16T19:44:09Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-16T19:44:16Z Xach: jasom: I'm thinking of this sarcastic bit: > Obviously one of the “dangerous actions” that allows print-read consistency to be violated is calling IN-PACKAGE. 2021-03-16T19:44:20Z gko joined #lisp 2021-03-16T19:44:50Z Xach: and there are plenty of things that talk about how hairy and confusing and inconsistent things are - which is not the mark of someone who likes the topic at hand 2021-03-16T19:45:19Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-16T19:45:48Z Xach: the "dangerous" language is from a cltl, not the spec - it should not be in a guide for ANSI CL 2021-03-16T19:45:52Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-16T19:46:01Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-16T19:46:04Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-16T19:46:04Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-16T19:46:19Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-16T19:46:46Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-16T19:48:57Z Xach: Anyway, I've disliked it as an intro for a long time. I think the operations of the package system are finite and knowable and there are simple ways to understand it. I don't like the approach of "you might THINK it works like this, but you're wrong! what a crock! here's what this weird thing actually does!" 2021-03-16T19:49:35Z Xach: I'd like to annotate my tiny package system clone as a different way into thorough understanding 2021-03-16T19:49:44Z Xach: alas, far far back burner 2021-03-16T19:50:41Z gko quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-16T19:51:06Z ebrasca quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-16T19:53:11Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-16T19:53:58Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-16T19:54:03Z Xach: To put it another way, I don't really like the attack line of "This doesn't work like you might expect" when there isn't a reasonable priming of the expectation system by, say, reading the rules first. 2021-03-16T19:56:55Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2021-03-16T19:57:35Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-03-16T20:00:14Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-16T20:01:33Z kaiwulf joined #lisp 2021-03-16T20:03:32Z warweasle quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 26.1) 2021-03-16T20:04:57Z rickygee quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-16T20:08:11Z kevingal_: I'd love to see a guide with visual examples. Each package is a box, symbols are written inside the box that represents their home package, the user is a little stick figure inside the current package, and you could draw arrows from user->symbol to show how to reference symbols in different packages. 2021-03-16T20:10:07Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-16T20:10:42Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-16T20:11:56Z kevingal_: I can see it now. The Visual Guide to Common Lisp Packages. 2021-03-16T20:15:03Z _death: eh, if only clouseau had these arrows across panes :)... then you'd have something like what you described, kinda.. if you inspect the CL package you get a list of its symbols (in a box :).. the in the interactor you can run the Eval commmand with, say, 'block.. and then presumably it'd have an arrow from the symbol listed to the form result 2021-03-16T20:16:46Z _death: also at the moment, mcclim is kinda broken (redisplay issues when accepting stuff).. oh well 2021-03-16T20:17:01Z kevingal_: I might write such a guide myself, if it doesn't exist already. Clouseau notwithstanding :D 2021-03-16T20:20:47Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-03-16T20:21:07Z luckless joined #lisp 2021-03-16T20:22:06Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-16T20:22:58Z luckless is now known as azimut 2021-03-16T20:23:02Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-16T20:25:48Z thatpythonboy joined #lisp 2021-03-16T20:31:23Z White_Flame: if we're throwing out wishlists, in slime I wish foo: would display not just the list of symbols, but also separate them into functions, special vars, and others, and display the functions with lambda list as well 2021-03-16T20:32:39Z _death: hmm I remember there was such a thing.. maybe in sly? 2021-03-16T20:32:52Z _death: https://github.com/joaotavora/sly/blob/master/doc/animations/company-flex-completion.gif 2021-03-16T20:34:57Z Sweedish quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-16T20:35:15Z nkatte quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-16T20:37:09Z f-a joined #lisp 2021-03-16T20:37:38Z f-a: https://twitter.com/lisperati/status/1371848079108882442 ← what is a «dynamic var» in this case? (I am a functional programmer, just not a lisp one) 2021-03-16T20:38:21Z Odin-: A non-lexical variable. 2021-03-16T20:38:23Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-16T20:38:43Z f-a: oh 2021-03-16T20:38:54Z Bike: it's like an implicit parameter in haskell, kinda. 2021-03-16T20:39:02Z Bike: i don't know if that helps. 2021-03-16T20:39:04Z _death: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node43.html 2021-03-16T20:39:11Z f-a: yes it does 2021-03-16T20:39:47Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-16T20:39:52Z Odin-: It's basically a global variable, but with the sharpest edges filed off. :p 2021-03-16T20:40:57Z f-a: yeah I was going to ask «why not a globalk 2021-03-16T20:41:00Z f-a: +» 2021-03-16T20:45:08Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-16T20:48:29Z Alfr: f-a, because it doesn't have to be. You can (defun foo () (declare (special *x*)) *x*) (defun bar () (let ((*x* 42)) (declare (special *x*)) (foo))), now calling foo references an unbound *x* but calling bar is fine. (Assuming *x* isn't bound globally.) 2021-03-16T20:48:55Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-16T20:50:15Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-16T20:50:25Z Alfr: That said, using it in this way is prone to forgetting the special declaration. 2021-03-16T20:53:16Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-16T20:56:44Z curtosis joined #lisp 2021-03-16T21:00:13Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-16T21:01:33Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-16T21:01:58Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-16T21:07:26Z f-a left #lisp 2021-03-16T21:12:29Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-03-16T21:23:26Z kevingal quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-16T21:23:28Z kevingal_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-16T21:23:56Z kevingal_ joined #lisp 2021-03-16T21:23:56Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-03-16T21:26:46Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-16T21:32:26Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-16T21:33:41Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-16T21:34:54Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-16T21:38:34Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-16T21:43:30Z curtosis is now known as curtosis[away] 2021-03-16T21:50:49Z curtosis[away] is now known as curtosis 2021-03-16T21:51:06Z Codaraxis joined #lisp 2021-03-16T21:52:17Z thatpyth1 joined #lisp 2021-03-16T21:52:37Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-03-16T21:54:09Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-16T21:55:28Z thatpythonboy quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-16T21:56:57Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-16T22:08:31Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-16T22:13:37Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-03-16T22:14:17Z thatpyth1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-16T22:21:22Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-03-16T22:27:54Z erjag joined #lisp 2021-03-16T22:29:01Z vsync_ joined #lisp 2021-03-16T22:29:07Z aindilis` joined #lisp 2021-03-16T22:29:39Z prxq_ joined #lisp 2021-03-16T22:30:28Z baullrog_ joined #lisp 2021-03-16T22:33:01Z jdz_ joined #lisp 2021-03-16T22:34:20Z curtosis is now known as curtosis[away] 2021-03-16T22:34:34Z cchristiansen joined #lisp 2021-03-16T22:35:25Z luni quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-16T22:35:25Z jdz quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-16T22:35:25Z varjagg quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-16T22:35:25Z vaporatorius quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-16T22:35:25Z prxq quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-16T22:35:25Z ukari quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-16T22:35:26Z semz quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-16T22:35:26Z vsync quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-16T22:35:26Z aindilis quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-16T22:40:33Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-16T22:41:14Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2021-03-16T22:41:32Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-03-16T22:42:50Z semz joined #lisp 2021-03-16T22:43:19Z supercoven quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-16T22:49:15Z curtosis[away] quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-16T22:54:11Z SP41 quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-16T22:57:49Z erjag quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-16T23:01:00Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-16T23:03:51Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-16T23:11:08Z akoana joined #lisp 2021-03-16T23:17:06Z pve joined #lisp 2021-03-16T23:17:57Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-16T23:19:41Z pve quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-16T23:20:20Z pve_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-16T23:22:34Z jacks2 joined #lisp 2021-03-16T23:26:08Z brandfla` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-16T23:30:28Z jacks2 quit (Quit: http://www.okay.uz/) 2021-03-16T23:30:42Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-16T23:31:25Z xsperry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-16T23:31:45Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-16T23:33:02Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-16T23:34:48Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-16T23:34:50Z emacsomancer quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-16T23:35:27Z emacsomancer joined #lisp 2021-03-16T23:35:32Z docl_ is now known as docl 2021-03-16T23:39:54Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-03-16T23:40:01Z phoe: FYI: I just fixed a really stupid bug in quicklisp-stats that loaded 2020 stats as 2021 stats. 2021-03-16T23:40:29Z phoe: so if you used the quicklisp-stats 2021 data in any projects, this data is wrong 2021-03-16T23:40:46Z phoe: sorry about the mess 2021-03-16T23:41:01Z aeth: alternatively, that means that we already have stats for April 2021 :o 2021-03-16T23:41:17Z aeth: (with the wrong data) 2021-03-16T23:54:22Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-16T23:59:00Z cosimone quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 28.0.50)) 2021-03-16T23:59:09Z curtosis joined #lisp 2021-03-17T00:03:30Z thatpythonboy joined #lisp 2021-03-17T00:03:52Z thatpythonboy: hi 2021-03-17T00:06:42Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-03-17T00:06:55Z Xach: phoe: i already closed a round of funding based on those stats!! 2021-03-17T00:08:11Z flazh quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-17T00:08:20Z thatpythonboy: in lisp paper how did they define defun with just atom,quote,cond,car,cdr,cons 2021-03-17T00:09:53Z flazh joined #lisp 2021-03-17T00:11:21Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-17T00:11:29Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T00:12:58Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-17T00:16:57Z hjudt quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-17T00:17:08Z thatpythonboy: i didn't get the defun part in roots of lisp paper?? 2021-03-17T00:17:14Z thatpythonboy: https://crypto.stanford.edu/~blynn/lambda/lisp.html 2021-03-17T00:17:41Z thatpythonboy: they say they made defun using cond,quote,atom,car,cdr,cons .... but they say label 2021-03-17T00:17:50Z thatpythonboy: now label doesn't exist in lisp 2021-03-17T00:17:56Z thatpythonboy: anyone knows? 2021-03-17T00:18:14Z thatpythonboy: others wise send me a memo using memoserv 2021-03-17T00:18:14Z Bike: labels does exist in lisp 2021-03-17T00:18:18Z dude2 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T00:18:24Z Bike: defun is a macro, so it coudln't be defined with just some functions 2021-03-17T00:18:28Z Bike: but maybe i don't understand what you mean 2021-03-17T00:18:51Z thatpythonboy: in maccarthy's paper he says we can define defun using just primitives 2021-03-17T00:19:34Z Bike: do you mean the "The Roots of Lisp" paper linked near the top? 2021-03-17T00:19:41Z thatpythonboy: ya 2021-03-17T00:20:15Z Bike: that's not by mccarthy, it's by paul graham. and, if you mean on page 5, defun is actually introduced as an abbreviation outside the language. 2021-03-17T00:20:53Z Bike: the actual definition of eval on page 8 does not seem to handle defun. 2021-03-17T00:21:27Z thatpythonboy: what do you mean 2021-03-17T00:21:49Z Bike: I mean that "defun" is introduced as shorthand for the reader. The actual evaluator program does not handle it. 2021-03-17T00:21:50Z thatpythonboy: but defun does handle eval 2021-03-17T00:22:10Z Bike: The evaluator on page 8 doesn't handle defun, does it? 2021-03-17T00:22:18Z thatpythonboy: no 2021-03-17T00:22:22Z Bike: I don't see any mention of defun. 2021-03-17T00:22:43Z thatpythonboy: ok look lets say there is no defun in the language... then how will eval work?? 2021-03-17T00:22:50Z thatpythonboy: it won't so lisp shouldn't exist 2021-03-17T00:23:08Z Bike: In that case eval would work with a predefined and/or empty environment to which no new definitions could be added. 2021-03-17T00:23:26Z Bike: You can still do things in a language like that, though it's a little inconvenient. 2021-03-17T00:24:25Z Bike: defun means state and mutation, which don't seem to be handled in this simple paper. 2021-03-17T00:25:01Z thatpythonboy: what about in maccarthy's paper on recursive functions 2021-03-17T00:26:42Z Bike: i haven't read it in a while, but i wouldn't be surprised to find it also skips these things. Mutation makes math harder and so in math definitions are usually kept as metalanguage. 2021-03-17T00:26:54Z Bike: assuming you mean "Recursive functions of symbolic expressions and their computation by machine" 2021-03-17T00:28:04Z dhil quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-17T00:28:22Z thatpythonboy: why you say mutation 2021-03-17T00:28:33Z Bike: because that's what i mean. effecting a change. 2021-03-17T00:29:22Z thatpythonboy: but functions are different? side-effect is the only thing i know of ... how could they mutate by default 2021-03-17T00:29:55Z moon-child: 'defun' mutates the global environment, by introducing a definition for a function 2021-03-17T00:31:42Z thatpythonboy: can we make defun with just atom,cond,quote,car,cdr,cons 2021-03-17T00:32:03Z _death: see what EVAL. does there in the case of LABEL, it calls itself with the definition consed to the environment 2021-03-17T00:32:25Z moon-child: you can certainly implement a language with defun using only those primitives. That's trivial. Turing equivalence 2021-03-17T00:32:28Z dude2 quit (Quit: Yaaic - Yet another Android IRC client - http://www.yaaic.org) 2021-03-17T00:33:39Z Bike: it depends on what you mean. those primitives don't allow any mutation of structures. you'd have to emulate another language. 2021-03-17T00:34:17Z thatpythonboy: are those primitives turing complete? 2021-03-17T00:34:22Z moon-child: yes 2021-03-17T00:34:48Z Bike: assuming you have lambda, you don't actually need any of them to be turing complete. 2021-03-17T00:35:18Z thatpythonboy: excluding lambda and defun 2021-03-17T00:35:25Z thatpythonboy: and label as well 2021-03-17T00:35:30Z thatpythonboy: i doubt it 2021-03-17T00:35:31Z moon-child: no 2021-03-17T00:35:46Z Bike: If you don't have lambda you can't define functions anyway. 2021-03-17T00:36:52Z thatpythonboy: paul graham claims using just these primitive we have a model of computation, turing complete... lol 2021-03-17T00:37:09Z thatpythonboy: and he keeps saying that i am like super confused 2021-03-17T00:37:34Z Bike: lambda by itself is turing complete. it's called lambda calculus. 2021-03-17T00:37:41Z thatpythonboy: of course 2021-03-17T00:37:54Z thatpythonboy: y-combinator does functions 2021-03-17T00:39:18Z Bike: i don't see any statement about turing completeness in this, except to say that turing machine definitions are "not very edifying to read", which is true 2021-03-17T00:39:32Z thatpythonboy: i get the lambda calculus part, but not the lisp part... 2021-03-17T00:39:47Z thatpythonboy: but lisp machines are... 2021-03-17T00:39:47Z Bike: what's to get? 2021-03-17T00:40:36Z bilegeek joined #lisp 2021-03-17T00:40:53Z thatpythonboy: he assumes that without lambda,label we can make turing complete model of computation-lisp model... i don't get that lisp part 2021-03-17T00:41:01Z Bike: where does he say that? 2021-03-17T00:41:15Z thatpythonboy: he professes that repeatedly throughout the article root of lisp 2021-03-17T00:41:33Z Bike: i have the article open in front of me and i don't see anything about removing lambda. what page is this? 2021-03-17T00:41:50Z thatpythonboy: he never used lambdas while making eval 2021-03-17T00:41:53Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-17T00:42:16Z Bike: Sure he did. Defun is an abbreviation for labels, which is lambda plus y combinators. 2021-03-17T00:42:24Z Bike: Eval calls itself recursively, so something like that is necessary. 2021-03-17T00:42:55Z thatpythonboy: yes but he says label doesn't exist, just these primitives 2021-03-17T00:43:01Z kevingal_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-17T00:43:01Z kevingal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-17T00:43:20Z Bike: Yes, it's an abbreviation for lambda plus y combinators, as he mentions in footnote 3. 2021-03-17T00:43:22Z thatpythonboy: but secretly uses labels and instead claims it's due to primitives "only" 2021-03-17T00:43:35Z Bike: I don't see anything in this where he talks about lambda not being primitive. 2021-03-17T00:43:57Z edgar-xyz joined #lisp 2021-03-17T00:44:30Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-17T00:44:38Z thatpythonboy: he very clearly is talking about those 7 operators, and keeps saying using "just these" seven...cond,atom,quote,car,cdr,cons we have an elegant model of computation 2021-03-17T00:44:56Z thatpythonboy: i didn't knew he was lying but now i know 2021-03-17T00:44:59Z Bike: I think you are misinterpreting what he's saying. 2021-03-17T00:45:12Z Bike: He goes through a lot of effort to define lambda. 2021-03-17T00:45:54Z edgar-rft quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-17T00:48:48Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-03-17T00:53:16Z thatpythonboy: he shouldn't have said using these 9 primitives lambda,label+7 others we have a lisp model 2021-03-17T00:54:16Z Bike: i mean, with lambda, quote, atom, eq, car, cdr, cons, cond, you do actually have a lisp model. the lisp model is the eval function. 2021-03-17T00:55:07Z thatpythonboy: but he didnt say 2021-03-17T00:56:05Z Bike: The eval function is at the climax of the article. It seems pretty obvious to me that it is the model in question. 2021-03-17T00:56:20Z Bike: If he said it didn't use lambda, he was mistaken, because by his own definitions it obviously does. 2021-03-17T00:57:15Z thatpythonboy: he is a liar he said he used "only" or "just" 7 primitives he lied very clear 2021-03-17T00:57:28Z Bike: Okay. Sure. 2021-03-17T01:01:34Z thatpythonboy: paul graham-"Using just quote,atom,eq,car,cdr,cons and cond, we can define a function, eval., that actually implements our language, and then using that we can define any additional functions we want" - liar 2021-03-17T01:02:20Z thatpythonboy: it kept bothering me how the heck did he implement without lambda,label that thing.... 2021-03-17T01:02:26Z thatpythonboy: kept wasting my time 2021-03-17T01:02:38Z Bike: If you really want to ascribe that to malice rather than sloppiness go ahead I guess. 2021-03-17T01:02:46Z thatpythonboy: not that my time that precious 2021-03-17T01:03:07Z thatpythonboy: he confused me like hell 2021-03-17T01:04:20Z curtosis is now known as curtosis[away] 2021-03-17T01:04:50Z curtosis[away] quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-17T01:07:45Z moon-child wonders why car/cdr/cons need to be primitives 2021-03-17T01:08:15Z MetaYan quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-17T01:08:42Z moon-child: why not cons = \ad.\f.fad; car = \c.c(\ad.a); cdr = \c.c(\ad.d) 2021-03-17T01:14:01Z bugrum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-17T01:14:20Z wxie joined #lisp 2021-03-17T01:17:26Z mrchampion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-17T01:18:21Z thatpythonboy: i still feel that car,cdr,cons can make it turing complete as car would pick the first, and cdr the last, and join them... maybe we can make lambdas using them with conds combined atom,quote,eq.? 2021-03-17T01:20:50Z moon-child: no 2021-03-17T01:21:27Z long4mud joined #lisp 2021-03-17T01:21:50Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-17T01:22:42Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-17T01:23:32Z moon-child: you can't do unbounded computation with only those primitives 2021-03-17T01:24:03Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-03-17T01:24:09Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T01:25:54Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-17T01:26:45Z mrchampion joined #lisp 2021-03-17T01:28:12Z bilegeek_ joined #lisp 2021-03-17T01:29:21Z pokes_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-17T01:31:14Z bilegeek quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-17T01:31:20Z curtosis joined #lisp 2021-03-17T01:31:22Z fiddlerwoaroof_: car/cdr/cons _don't_ need to be primitives 2021-03-17T01:32:54Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-17T01:35:22Z hendursa3 quit (Quit: hendursa3) 2021-03-17T01:35:26Z Bike: you need some way for a program to proceed through an unbounded number of distinct states. 2021-03-17T01:35:40Z Bike: recursion or infinite loops are usually how that goes. 2021-03-17T01:37:49Z fiddlerwoaroof_: You can define car/cdr/cons entirely in terms of lambda: https://fwoar.co/pastebin/4475ba6ae0c860a56112b5d67d605db372f2e09a.lisp.html 2021-03-17T01:38:47Z moon-child: is that ... sqlispe? 2021-03-17T01:38:57Z fiddlerwoaroof_: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_encoding#List_encodings 2021-03-17T01:39:00Z gitgoood joined #lisp 2021-03-17T01:39:12Z fiddlerwoaroof_: Sorry, meant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_encoding#Church_pairs 2021-03-17T01:40:32Z fiddlerwoaroof_: Ah, my repl is in a random package :) 2021-03-17T01:40:54Z fiddlerwoaroof_: Working on this: https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/aion/blob/master/sqlite.lisp 2021-03-17T01:41:57Z gitgood quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-17T01:43:45Z marusich quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-17T01:44:16Z fiddlerwoaroof_: I saw slyrus's soiree, but had performance issues and got annoyed by dealing with XML/XPath, so I wrote a simple parser that parses an iCalendar file and genreates events 2021-03-17T01:44:21Z rickygee joined #lisp 2021-03-17T01:44:44Z fiddlerwoaroof_: So I can pull my calendar into sqlite and then use datasette to get a website for it 2021-03-17T01:51:26Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-03-17T01:53:42Z curtosis is now known as curtosis[away] 2021-03-17T01:54:11Z curtosis[away] quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-17T01:58:38Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-03-17T01:59:12Z charles` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-17T01:59:13Z dbotton quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-17T02:02:30Z gko joined #lisp 2021-03-17T02:04:26Z marusich joined #lisp 2021-03-17T02:05:04Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-03-17T02:09:24Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-17T02:13:07Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-03-17T02:14:34Z MetaYan joined #lisp 2021-03-17T02:22:39Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-03-17T02:30:35Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-17T02:31:39Z hendursaga quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-17T02:32:01Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-03-17T02:33:53Z drmeister: fiddlerwoaroof_: I finished implementing save-lisp-and-die in clasp. I got the startup time for our cando scientific programming environment down from 40 seconds to 5 seconds. I hope for better performance in the future. There's an engineer at Apple who's working with us on it. 2021-03-17T02:34:26Z drmeister: 70% of the time is now spent in llvm linking the 12,000 or so object files that are part of the image. 2021-03-17T02:35:08Z drmeister: General question: Does anyone remember the name of the thing that makes Common Lisp macros unsanitized? 2021-03-17T02:35:43Z drmeister: It's something like "capture"? - I don't recall. It's where macros can change the meaning of variables if you aren't careful to use gensyms. 2021-03-17T02:36:53Z glamas quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.4 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-17T02:38:02Z glamas joined #lisp 2021-03-17T02:40:27Z hineios quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-17T02:41:33Z hineios joined #lisp 2021-03-17T02:42:02Z renzhi quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-17T02:43:35Z semz joined #lisp 2021-03-17T02:54:42Z Sheilong quit 2021-03-17T02:54:45Z DHARMAKAYA joined #lisp 2021-03-17T02:55:24Z Stanley00 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-17T02:56:03Z slyrus: drmeister, http://www.randomhacks.net/2002/09/13/hygienic-macros/ ? 2021-03-17T02:56:13Z slyrus: sounds like good progress! 2021-03-17T02:58:37Z aeth: For people not in the other channel... Fits more here since it's just trivia... 2021-03-17T02:58:39Z aeth: Generally, people only GENSYM stuff in the variable namespace, but hygiene is also an issue with the function namespace. You just rarely see it come up with the combination of packages, (non-standard but permitted) package locks, and the relative rarity of FLET as opposed to LET (i.e. CL being a Lisp-2). 2021-03-17T02:58:45Z aeth: (defun foo (x) (1+ x)) (defmacro foobar (y) `(foo ,y)) (defun bar () (flet ((foo (x) (+ 2 x))) (foobar 42))) (bar) ;=> 44 2021-03-17T03:00:04Z aeth: If you use USE and you use FLET, you might see something like that come up eventually. 2021-03-17T03:01:04Z aindilis` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-17T03:02:07Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-03-17T03:05:53Z fiddlerwoaroof_: drmeister: I think you just mean "variable capture"? 2021-03-17T03:06:27Z fiddlerwoaroof_: drmeister: that's cool about s-l-a-d 2021-03-17T03:11:29Z drmeister: Yes - variable capture - thank you. 2021-03-17T03:12:12Z drmeister: I was trying to put into context some strange C++ macro handling in one of the garbage collectors we support - it essentially uses variable capture to optimize scanning memory. 2021-03-17T03:23:07Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-17T03:25:34Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-03-17T03:27:58Z _whitelogger_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-17T03:27:58Z _whitelogger__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-17T03:33:12Z prxq joined #lisp 2021-03-17T03:36:43Z dude2 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T03:37:11Z prxq_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-17T03:37:44Z bilegeek_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-17T03:38:48Z dude2 quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-17T03:41:49Z kaiwulf quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-17T03:47:47Z akoana left #lisp 2021-03-17T04:01:17Z Alfr is now known as Guest35455 2021-03-17T04:01:18Z Guest35455 quit (Killed (sinisalo.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))) 2021-03-17T04:01:21Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-03-17T04:03:53Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-03-17T04:05:28Z phantomics_ joined #lisp 2021-03-17T04:05:58Z phantomics quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-17T04:08:06Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-17T04:08:32Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T04:08:40Z fiddlerwoaroof_ is now known as fiddlerwoaroof 2021-03-17T04:09:38Z phantomics_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-17T04:12:32Z fiddlerwoaroof left #lisp 2021-03-17T04:12:36Z fiddlerwoaroof joined #lisp 2021-03-17T04:12:36Z phantomics joined #lisp 2021-03-17T04:15:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: hm 2021-03-17T04:19:55Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2021-03-17T04:21:40Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-17T04:36:51Z pillton joined #lisp 2021-03-17T04:40:47Z rickygee quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-17T04:50:27Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-17T04:54:18Z tumdum joined #lisp 2021-03-17T04:54:18Z tumdum quit (Changing host) 2021-03-17T04:54:18Z tumdum joined #lisp 2021-03-17T04:54:29Z asdflkj quit (Quit: IRCNow and Forever!) 2021-03-17T04:54:47Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-17T04:57:59Z wxie joined #lisp 2021-03-17T05:00:35Z jonatack_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-17T05:01:33Z hendursaga quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-17T05:01:58Z asdflkj joined #lisp 2021-03-17T05:02:01Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-03-17T05:03:07Z tumdum quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-17T05:16:53Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-17T05:22:07Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-17T05:23:31Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-17T05:27:54Z sauvin joined #lisp 2021-03-17T05:32:50Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-17T05:34:36Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-03-17T05:41:43Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-17T05:44:12Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-17T05:47:44Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2021-03-17T05:52:55Z rickygee joined #lisp 2021-03-17T05:53:29Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-17T05:53:29Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2021-03-17T05:53:29Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-17T05:57:21Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-03-17T06:02:01Z epony quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-17T06:11:53Z pillton quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-17T06:17:45Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-03-17T06:20:39Z hendursaga quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-17T06:21:07Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-03-17T06:23:46Z zooey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-17T06:24:16Z zooey joined #lisp 2021-03-17T06:34:13Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-17T06:47:48Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-03-17T06:52:00Z asarch joined #lisp 2021-03-17T06:52:22Z asarch: How would you concatenate a '\n'? 2021-03-17T06:52:44Z loke[m]: asarch: with what? 2021-03-17T06:53:36Z asarch: (setf buffer (concatenate 'string "The Quick Brown Fox" "\n")) 2021-03-17T06:53:59Z loke[m]: asarch: Sure, why not? 2021-03-17T06:54:06Z asarch: (set buffer (concatenate 'string buffer "Jumps over the lazy dog")) 2021-03-17T06:54:16Z loke[m]: Unless you epxect \n to mean something other than the two characters backslash and n 2021-03-17T06:55:20Z asarch: I get "The quick brown foxn" from the first concatenation 2021-03-17T06:55:42Z loke[m]: Right, you have to explain what you actually want. 2021-03-17T06:55:58Z loke[m]: I'm buessing what you really want is to append a neline to tne end of the string. 2021-03-17T06:56:14Z asarch: Yeah 2021-03-17T06:56:18Z asarch: "Newline" 2021-03-17T06:56:34Z moon-child: (concatenate 'string "abc" '(#\Newline)) 2021-03-17T06:56:37Z loke[m]: There are many ways to do that. I usually use FORMAT for most things string-related 2021-03-17T06:56:50Z loke[m]: (format nil "~a~%" some-string) 2021-03-17T06:57:14Z loke[m]: Or if you want to make a string with a neline, you can do (STRING #\Newline) 2021-03-17T06:58:56Z loke[m]: Or the worst suggestion, if your string is adjustable: (VECTOR-PUSH-EXTEND some-string #\Newline) 2021-03-17T06:59:11Z loke[m]: (but swap the arguments) 2021-03-17T06:59:13Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-17T07:00:28Z kam1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-17T07:00:33Z asarch: Yeah! Thank you! Thank you very much! :-) 2021-03-17T07:00:43Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T07:04:24Z hjudt joined #lisp 2021-03-17T07:04:32Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T07:07:52Z GreaseMonkey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-17T07:09:29Z greaser|q joined #lisp 2021-03-17T07:10:33Z greaser|q quit (Changing host) 2021-03-17T07:10:33Z greaser|q joined #lisp 2021-03-17T07:11:06Z greaser|q is now known as GreaseMonkey 2021-03-17T07:11:38Z erjag joined #lisp 2021-03-17T07:12:02Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2021-03-17T07:12:32Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-17T07:13:06Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp 2021-03-17T07:14:19Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-17T07:14:58Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-17T07:18:55Z flip214: Is there something like WITH-OUTPUT-TO-STRING that accepts an (array (unsigned-byte 8) *) in the standard? Or do I have to use babel or so? 2021-03-17T07:20:48Z phoe: flip214: https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/4ezh4n/need_something_like_a_string_output_stream_but/ 2021-03-17T07:23:34Z erjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 28.0.50)) 2021-03-17T07:24:39Z loke[m]: flip214: It needs to be in an external library, as the CL standard doesn't provide the necessary primitives (as it's pre-UTF-8) 2021-03-17T07:25:41Z asarch: How would you traverse over a JSON object? 2021-03-17T07:25:53Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T07:26:29Z rigidus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-17T07:27:33Z loke[m]: asarch: depends on the JSON library you use. 2021-03-17T07:29:13Z asarch: With Yason I can get the upper level 2021-03-17T07:29:51Z asarch: (loop for element in (yason:parse *names*) do (maphash #'(lambda (k v) (print (list k v))) element)) 2021-03-17T07:29:54Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-17T07:31:00Z flip214: phoe: loke[m]: thanks 2021-03-17T07:31:29Z flip214: asarch: you can also ask YASON to return an ALIST or PLIST, if that's easier to handle 2021-03-17T07:34:09Z asarch: At some point I get ("children" (# ...)) 2021-03-17T07:34:55Z flip214: so there's an "children: { ...}" in your json 2021-03-17T07:36:45Z asarch: Oh, I thought there was a (expand-all *json*) function for that :-P 2021-03-17T07:38:12Z Klopsch joined #lisp 2021-03-17T07:38:44Z asarch: Ok. Let's learn about #s 2021-03-17T07:40:38Z ficl joined #lisp 2021-03-17T07:42:25Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-17T07:42:58Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-17T07:43:13Z karlosz quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-17T07:45:03Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-03-17T07:46:50Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-17T07:53:06Z pve joined #lisp 2021-03-17T07:58:09Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-17T08:02:59Z loke[m]: asarch: this is because hash tables doesn't have a printable form. 2021-03-17T08:05:42Z asarch: I se 2021-03-17T08:05:44Z asarch: *see 2021-03-17T08:07:35Z rickygee quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-17T08:08:34Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-03-17T08:10:50Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T08:14:10Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-17T08:15:35Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-17T08:18:49Z Major_Biscuit joined #lisp 2021-03-17T08:26:00Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-17T08:26:44Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-03-17T08:31:46Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-17T08:32:05Z vutral_ joined #lisp 2021-03-17T08:37:39Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-03-17T08:49:30Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-17T08:59:13Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-17T08:59:31Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-17T09:00:03Z even4void[m] quit (Quit: Idle for 30+ days) 2021-03-17T09:06:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: When I'm working with hashtables a lot, I use this modification to the pretty printer: https://github.com/cjdev/aws-access/blob/master/src/pprint-setup.lisp 2021-03-17T09:07:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: load fset, load that code and then run (setup-pprint) 2021-03-17T09:07:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: (if you have really big hash-tables, this might cause problems with slime, though) 2021-03-17T09:09:51Z DHARMAKAYA quit (Quit: Turning off a portion of this simulation.) 2021-03-17T09:10:52Z phoe: does this modification respect *print-length* and *print-level*? 2021-03-17T09:11:07Z phoe: if it doesn't, it should 2021-03-17T09:11:15Z phoe: these variables are in there for a reason 2021-03-17T09:11:35Z jdz_ quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2021-03-17T09:12:05Z nitrix quit (Quit: Genius is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine percent perspiration) 2021-03-17T09:12:19Z jdz joined #lisp 2021-03-17T09:13:44Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-03-17T09:14:16Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-17T09:16:44Z nitrix joined #lisp 2021-03-17T09:22:18Z prxq quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-03-17T09:22:31Z prxq joined #lisp 2021-03-17T09:24:39Z thatpythonboy quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-17T09:26:59Z beach: I wonder what would happen if I joined (say) #python with a nick like "thatlispcodger". 2021-03-17T09:29:18Z shinohai: They'd prolly offer you some crayons to eat. 2021-03-17T09:35:32Z beach: Not that I am going to try. I am just musing about the extreme politeness of #lisp participants compared to what I hear about other IRC channels. 2021-03-17T09:39:33Z yitzi quit (Quit: yitzi) 2021-03-17T09:39:45Z yitzi joined #lisp 2021-03-17T09:45:37Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-17T09:46:29Z john_ joined #lisp 2021-03-17T09:46:34Z sauvin_ joined #lisp 2021-03-17T09:47:31Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T09:51:20Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-17T09:51:37Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-17T09:51:47Z diamondbond_ is now known as diamondbond 2021-03-17T09:55:25Z yitzi quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-17T09:55:25Z toorevitimirp quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-17T09:55:26Z gaqwas quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-17T09:55:26Z sauvin quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-17T09:55:26Z glamas quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-17T09:55:26Z notzmv quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-17T09:55:26Z mrchampion quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-17T10:00:06Z vegansbane6963 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-03-17T10:01:29Z glamas joined #lisp 2021-03-17T10:01:29Z yitzi joined #lisp 2021-03-17T10:02:12Z mrchampion joined #lisp 2021-03-17T10:05:11Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T10:05:22Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-17T10:10:24Z supercoven joined #lisp 2021-03-17T10:17:12Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-17T10:17:12Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-17T10:18:05Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T10:18:14Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-17T10:20:11Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-17T10:20:29Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T10:20:51Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-17T10:21:34Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T10:24:05Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-17T10:24:34Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T10:27:38Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-17T10:27:49Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T10:30:56Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-03-17T10:31:10Z kevingal_ joined #lisp 2021-03-17T10:31:13Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T10:32:58Z Stanley00 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-17T10:37:37Z eden joined #lisp 2021-03-17T10:37:39Z vutral_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-17T10:43:00Z dhil joined #lisp 2021-03-17T10:47:23Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-17T10:48:01Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T10:48:17Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-17T10:50:02Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-17T10:51:08Z yitzi quit (Quit: yitzi) 2021-03-17T10:55:05Z cchristiansen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-17T10:56:52Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-17T10:58:49Z dim: in my experience the PostgreSQL channels are of comparable welcoming and politeness too 2021-03-17T10:59:56Z dim: people often show up asking questions about mysql or rds/aurora or other non Postgres systems and they are politely pointed to the fact that Postgres knowledge can't be used to answer them and directed to other places, or sometimes the questions are answered too 2021-03-17T11:00:03Z Xach: dim: do people join and ask "i heard normalization is for chumps"? 2021-03-17T11:03:21Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-17T11:04:37Z beach: Heh. 2021-03-17T11:05:21Z beach: Xach: Are you paraphrasing a particular utterance here? 2021-03-17T11:05:42Z dim: Xach: we have that kind of people yeah 2021-03-17T11:06:37Z dim: Xach: we have people who come and ask us to optimise their MySQL queries and schemas too, because they heard we're good at SQL... 2021-03-17T11:07:02Z dim: maybe that's comparable to people showing up here and asking about their scheme or emacs-lisp code? 2021-03-17T11:08:23Z beach: Here, I often observe the phenomenon that people will ask an unrelated question just because the relevant IRC channel is not active. 2021-03-17T11:11:20Z Stanley00 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-17T11:12:15Z supercoven_ joined #lisp 2021-03-17T11:13:33Z gitgoood quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-17T11:13:56Z gitgood joined #lisp 2021-03-17T11:14:20Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T11:15:28Z supercoven quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-17T11:21:33Z mrchampion quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-17T11:24:08Z Stanley00 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-17T11:26:20Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T11:28:10Z Stanley00 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-17T11:28:25Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T11:29:31Z mrchampion joined #lisp 2021-03-17T11:37:14Z schweers joined #lisp 2021-03-17T11:37:33Z john_ is now known as gaqwas 2021-03-17T11:37:35Z schweers quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-17T11:37:42Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2021-03-17T11:37:42Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-17T11:37:47Z schweers joined #lisp 2021-03-17T11:39:11Z schweers: Does anyone here have experience with deploying applications created with ABCL? I’m trying to create a jar file which includes everything the application needs, but I’m getting nowhere. I asked on #abcl a few days ago, but did not recieve an answer. 2021-03-17T11:39:12Z minion: schweers, memo from easye: RE: "abcl tries to load the contents from the surrounding host system (i.e. ~/common-lisp/": the inclusion of comes from having Quicklisp loaded. You can try mucking with the ASDF configuration or not having Quicklisp present in the process. Unfortunately, the packaging document is the most current description of the situation, but as you have found, it could use an update or two. 2021-03-17T11:39:27Z Stanley00 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-17T11:39:38Z schweers: huh 2021-03-17T11:40:51Z schweers: easye: I just got your message. I’m afraid it won’t help me, as simply moving ~/common-lisp/ should cause abcl to then load from within the jar, which is sadly not the case. 2021-03-17T11:44:33Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-17T11:45:56Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T11:46:43Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-17T11:47:40Z long4mud quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-17T11:47:40Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-17T11:51:44Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-17T11:51:53Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-17T11:54:14Z Stanley00 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-17T11:57:33Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-17T11:57:40Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-17T12:00:07Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-17T12:02:58Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-17T12:03:57Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-17T12:04:58Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-17T12:09:39Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-17T12:11:11Z ldbeth: good afternnon 2021-03-17T12:11:50Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-17T12:14:07Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-17T12:15:36Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-17T12:17:48Z edgar-xyz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-17T12:18:34Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2021-03-17T12:19:28Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T12:22:33Z mrchampion quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-17T12:26:55Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-17T12:30:12Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-17T12:31:24Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-17T12:39:56Z kevingal_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-17T12:39:56Z kevingal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-17T12:42:35Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-03-17T12:45:05Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-17T12:47:05Z andrei-n joined #lisp 2021-03-17T12:48:13Z warweasle joined #lisp 2021-03-17T12:49:45Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-17T12:50:23Z mrchampion joined #lisp 2021-03-17T12:50:31Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp 2021-03-17T12:52:06Z epony joined #lisp 2021-03-17T12:57:10Z Sheilong joined #lisp 2021-03-17T12:58:36Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-17T13:00:01Z Stanley00 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-17T13:00:33Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-17T13:00:36Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T13:01:22Z Stanley00 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-17T13:04:13Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-03-17T13:06:11Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-17T13:08:31Z yitzi joined #lisp 2021-03-17T13:10:45Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-17T13:11:43Z pankajsg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-17T13:11:58Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-03-17T13:16:08Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-17T13:19:41Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-17T13:21:06Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-17T13:23:52Z cg505 quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-17T13:24:25Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-17T13:25:46Z cg505 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T13:25:54Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-03-17T13:26:58Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-17T13:28:30Z jonatack_ quit (Quit: jonatack_) 2021-03-17T13:28:53Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-17T13:35:54Z kevingal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-17T13:37:18Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-03-17T13:37:48Z kevingal_ joined #lisp 2021-03-17T13:38:06Z kevingal_ quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-17T13:39:44Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-17T13:40:15Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-03-17T13:44:07Z eden quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-17T13:45:01Z cyraxjoe quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2021-03-17T13:46:10Z cyraxjoe joined #lisp 2021-03-17T13:52:33Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-17T13:53:54Z surabax joined #lisp 2021-03-17T13:59:36Z spal_ is now known as spal 2021-03-17T14:06:38Z matryoshka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-17T14:09:28Z matryoshka joined #lisp 2021-03-17T14:17:31Z caret joined #lisp 2021-03-17T14:18:11Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-17T14:26:01Z azimut quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-17T14:29:46Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-17T14:35:10Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-03-17T14:44:52Z asterope joined #lisp 2021-03-17T14:48:47Z asterope: I have an asdf system that depends on a package that uses cffi to load some libraries, but each time I load it I need to manually point cffi to the right library directory and continue 2021-03-17T14:50:09Z kevingal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-17T14:50:48Z asterope: I need to either somehow hook into the loading process and execute some code after cffi loads or react to the exception it throws and continue automatically 2021-03-17T14:51:11Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-03-17T14:51:44Z asterope: can someone point me in the right direction to do either of those things? 2021-03-17T14:52:14Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-03-17T14:52:16Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T14:52:50Z Stanley00 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-17T14:57:10Z Xach: asterope: That's a good question, I wish I could help, but I haven't seen that and don't know how to tweak CFFI that way. 2021-03-17T14:59:34Z Bike: i think cffi leaves finding libraries up to the implementation as much as possible. i think the only hook it has is *foreign-library-directories*, which it discourages using. 2021-03-17T14:59:53Z asterope: the cffi part is easy. I'm just changing the cffi::*foreign-library-directories* when it throws that it can't find the libraries 2021-03-17T15:00:16Z Bike: well, the manual says what it signals is load-foreign-library-error, so you can put a handler on that, maybe? 2021-03-17T15:00:31Z rigidus joined #lisp 2021-03-17T15:01:27Z jackdaniel: asterope: what I do is that I'm closing all libraries before saving the image 2021-03-17T15:01:38Z jackdaniel: and put load-all-libraries in the initialization code 2021-03-17T15:02:20Z jackdaniel: (where load-all-libraries is your function that works on a preserved result of cffi:list-loaded-libraries from before you have closed them) 2021-03-17T15:03:09Z drbluefall quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-17T15:03:21Z jackdaniel: or something in this spirit, I don't have the actual code nearby 2021-03-17T15:12:08Z asterope: reading about handling gives me the impression a handler has to "wrap around" the code that throws the exception 2021-03-17T15:13:06Z Bike: the code that signals has to be in the dynamic extent of the handler, yes. 2021-03-17T15:13:48Z Bike: in this case it seems like you'd put it around the load-foreign-library call. 2021-03-17T15:14:29Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-17T15:14:31Z asterope: can it be somehow used globally using my .sbclrc? I don't load cffi directly and it's a quirk of my system that I need to hijack foreign-library-directories 2021-03-17T15:14:56Z beach: asterope: In Common Lisp we don't "throw exceptions". We "signal conditions". The distinction is important because the Common Lisp condition system is much more sophisticated than the exception systems of other languages. And Common Lisp has an operator THROW which does something completely different. 2021-03-17T15:15:03Z Bike: there is no way to define global handlers, no. 2021-03-17T15:15:27Z Bike: if you're doing asdf:load-system or something you could wrap it around that maybe? 2021-03-17T15:17:41Z asterope: sorry for the incorrect terminology, it's a condition of cffi:load-foreign-library-error 2021-03-17T15:18:51Z asterope: I think I could write a simple wrapper function, but then I'd have to remember not to use slime's ,load-system 2021-03-17T15:19:51Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-17T15:22:24Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-17T15:23:02Z phoe: ...or hook it to use your wrapper function 2021-03-17T15:23:39Z Bike: i think you can configure asdf to do that, yeah. however, why exactly do you need to work with foreign-library-directories dynamically? are you like, adding new entries to it whenever a load fails? 2021-03-17T15:24:02Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-17T15:24:18Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-17T15:26:18Z kevingal quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-03-17T15:26:43Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-03-17T15:27:00Z asterope: more specifically, guix install libraries to a directory in home dir, and cffi doesn't know that 2021-03-17T15:27:52Z Bike: how do other programs load libraries? all cffi does is use the lisp implementation, which almost certainly uses dlopen 2021-03-17T15:28:01Z Bike: (i mean, on posix) 2021-03-17T15:28:47Z nullx002 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T15:31:20Z asterope: programs in the distribution are already changed to tolerate that, but for cffi I need to either set LD_LIBRARY_PATH or *foreigh-library-directiories* 2021-03-17T15:31:24Z shka_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2021-03-17T15:34:39Z asterope: just confirmed that I can rebind ql:quickload to a wrapper and slime will use it, I think that will solve it 2021-03-17T15:37:26Z curtosis[away] joined #lisp 2021-03-17T15:37:37Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-03-17T15:38:14Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-03-17T15:38:16Z Bike: we get questions like this not infrequently and i'm wondering if there's a comprehensive Right Thing To Do. ld.so.conf? something? do guix programs just never dlopen anything? 2021-03-17T15:38:59Z jgkamat quit (Quit: ZNC - https://znc.in) 2021-03-17T15:39:47Z jgkamat joined #lisp 2021-03-17T15:45:01Z p_l: Bike: you end up having to provide LD_LIBRARY_PATH and the like 2021-03-17T15:45:09Z p_l: sometimes in wrapper scripts generated by guix/nix 2021-03-17T15:46:47Z asterope: oh wait, I can change ld_library_path in .bashrc, it's a lot simpler 2021-03-17T15:47:10Z asterope: for some reason I rejected it, but the alternative is much more complicated 2021-03-17T15:48:34Z asterope quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-17T15:49:16Z asterope joined #lisp 2021-03-17T15:52:25Z curtosis[away] quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-17T15:52:41Z sjl joined #lisp 2021-03-17T15:56:42Z asterope quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-17T15:59:38Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-03-17T16:02:53Z Josh_2: What function do I use to remove one list from another? 2021-03-17T16:02:59Z Josh_2: Cant remember the name :O 2021-03-17T16:03:01Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-17T16:03:04Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2021-03-17T16:03:13Z flip214: Josh_2: set-difference? 2021-03-17T16:03:26Z beach: Josh_2: I don't understand the specification. 2021-03-17T16:03:42Z beach: Josh_2: Perhaps you can give an example? 2021-03-17T16:03:50Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-17T16:03:56Z beach: clhs remove 2021-03-17T16:03:56Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rm_rm.htm 2021-03-17T16:03:58Z curtosis joined #lisp 2021-03-17T16:04:14Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-17T16:04:45Z Josh_2: I think it is set-difference 2021-03-17T16:04:50Z Josh_2: I will try 2021-03-17T16:05:19Z Josh_2: basically I have a long list of many strings, and I would like to conditionally remove some of the strings based on a list of strings to exclude 2021-03-17T16:05:32Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3)) 2021-03-17T16:05:51Z beach: I don't think of that as removing a list from another, but hey. 2021-03-17T16:06:12Z beach: And what is the "conditionally" part? 2021-03-17T16:06:25Z beach: Otherwise, yes, that sounds like set-difference. 2021-03-17T16:06:53Z Josh_2: Oh right, yes It's not technically removing anything is it 2021-03-17T16:06:59Z Josh_2: just creating a new list from the difference 2021-03-17T16:07:06Z beach: clhs delete 2021-03-17T16:07:06Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rm_rm.htm 2021-03-17T16:07:33Z beach: But you still have to use the return value, because you can't delete the first element of a list. 2021-03-17T16:08:05Z beach: And yes, SET-DIFFERENCE does not have any side effects. 2021-03-17T16:09:07Z Josh_2: I will try set-difference, I think thats what I want 2021-03-17T16:22:54Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-17T16:25:07Z ficl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-17T16:27:34Z Klopsch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-17T16:27:50Z frgo_ joined #lisp 2021-03-17T16:28:23Z Klopsch joined #lisp 2021-03-17T16:31:09Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-17T16:32:04Z Klopsch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-17T16:32:04Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-17T16:32:14Z frgo_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-17T16:32:19Z Klopsch joined #lisp 2021-03-17T16:39:06Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-03-17T16:49:51Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-17T16:51:09Z vutral_ joined #lisp 2021-03-17T16:52:11Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-03-17T16:53:27Z Tordek quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-17T16:53:36Z Tordek joined #lisp 2021-03-17T16:58:06Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-17T16:58:48Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T17:00:20Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-17T17:00:52Z corpix quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-17T17:01:14Z corpix joined #lisp 2021-03-17T17:04:01Z kevingal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-17T17:07:39Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-17T17:10:27Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-17T17:16:16Z jurov_ joined #lisp 2021-03-17T17:18:43Z jurov quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-17T17:18:57Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-17T17:31:42Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-17T17:38:34Z nullx002 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-17T17:38:48Z nullx002 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T17:40:39Z andrei-n quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-17T17:47:34Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-17T17:51:01Z rozengla` joined #lisp 2021-03-17T17:52:33Z rozenglass quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-17T17:53:27Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-17T17:54:19Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-17T17:54:30Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-17T17:54:51Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-17T17:55:00Z zaquest quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-17T17:55:30Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-17T17:57:19Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-17T17:57:50Z nullx002 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-17T17:58:18Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-03-17T17:58:22Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-17T18:01:55Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T18:05:20Z davisr joined #lisp 2021-03-17T18:13:23Z jdz: Josh_2: Don't forget to provide the test otherwise you'll think it does not work. 2021-03-17T18:14:04Z jdz: Oh, late to the party :/ 2021-03-17T18:21:20Z sauvin_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-17T18:23:38Z Josh_2: jdz dw I did :) 2021-03-17T18:24:38Z Josh_2: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2345#2345 :P 2021-03-17T18:26:33Z nullx002 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T18:35:54Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-17T18:36:23Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-17T18:37:55Z cage__ joined #lisp 2021-03-17T18:40:57Z yitzi_ joined #lisp 2021-03-17T18:44:40Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-17T18:46:33Z nullx002 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-17T18:46:33Z zaquest quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-17T18:46:33Z amb007 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-17T18:46:33Z curtosis quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-17T18:46:33Z rigidus quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-17T18:46:33Z cage_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-17T18:46:33Z yitzi quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-17T18:46:34Z glamas quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-17T18:46:35Z yitzi_ is now known as yitzi 2021-03-17T18:47:26Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T18:50:37Z jurov joined #lisp 2021-03-17T18:52:47Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-03-17T18:52:49Z glamas_ joined #lisp 2021-03-17T18:52:49Z rigidus` joined #lisp 2021-03-17T18:53:27Z jurov_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-17T18:55:57Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-17T18:58:24Z waleee-cl joined #lisp 2021-03-17T19:00:51Z yitzi quit (Quit: yitzi) 2021-03-17T19:08:05Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-17T19:09:17Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T19:12:41Z ficl joined #lisp 2021-03-17T19:14:28Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-17T19:15:07Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-17T19:15:38Z White_Flame: so, default quickload hides all warnings and only shows progress dots. *quickload-verbose* t shows the build stuff, but for all dependencies 2021-03-17T19:15:54Z White_Flame: is there a way to only be verbose for your dev projects that you're working on, and not the entire dependency tree? 2021-03-17T19:17:39Z Shinmera: No, but that's something Xach has been talking about wanting to add for ages. 2021-03-17T19:18:28Z White_Flame: ok 2021-03-17T19:18:58Z White_Flame: it can probably be cobbled up with some :around thingies on the asdf project triggers, but it's not a big enough deal to bother with that 2021-03-17T19:19:44Z White_Flame: I still need to tear out our ancient build tools and standardize everything on those more in-depth asdf features 2021-03-17T19:20:13Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-17T19:24:48Z luckless joined #lisp 2021-03-17T19:26:37Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-03-17T19:27:44Z Klopsch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-17T19:27:44Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T19:34:33Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-17T19:37:30Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T19:37:31Z baullrog_ quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-03-17T19:37:34Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-17T19:39:24Z rogersm quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-17T19:40:09Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-17T19:42:20Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T19:42:48Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-17T19:44:22Z thonkpod_ is now known as thonkpod 2021-03-17T19:44:29Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-17T19:47:21Z luckless is now known as azimut 2021-03-17T19:47:50Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T19:48:04Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-17T19:49:00Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T19:49:04Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T19:49:05Z yitzi joined #lisp 2021-03-17T19:49:27Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-17T19:50:43Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-17T19:51:21Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T19:51:58Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-17T19:52:31Z marusich quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-17T19:55:21Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-17T19:55:35Z cage__: Hi! i wonder why this form (let ((*print-circle* t)) '#1=(2 2 5 #1#)) makes the stack explode (i am using SBCL 2.1.1) 2021-03-17T19:56:29Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-17T19:56:59Z _death: the *print-circle* is bound while the inner form is evaluated, but the binding expires before the REPL prints it 2021-03-17T19:58:04Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T19:59:09Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-17T19:59:19Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T19:59:19Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-17T20:00:02Z cage__: _death, thanks! 2021-03-17T20:00:30Z cage__: in fact: (let ((*print-circle* t)) (format t "~a~%" '#1=(2 2 5 #1#))) ; => #1=(2 2 5 #1#) 2021-03-17T20:00:31Z Josh_2: Can someone help me with my macro writing macro https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2346#2346 I think It's obvious what I'm trying to do 2021-03-17T20:00:54Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T20:01:01Z Josh_2: but basically I'm trying to get (args-from-validation-lists ..) to evaluate to a list like (message message2) and then add that to the end of that λ list 2021-03-17T20:01:26Z Josh_2: and the same with (list-of-lists->validators ..) that returns a list and I'm trying to add that list into my progn 2021-03-17T20:01:34Z Josh_2: I keep getting the error that args is unbound 2021-03-17T20:01:45Z warweasle quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 26.1) 2021-03-17T20:03:01Z Bike: nothing is obvious about double backquotes, i'm afraid 2021-03-17T20:03:10Z Josh_2: rip 2021-03-17T20:03:14Z phoe: I hate double backquote with a passion 2021-03-17T20:03:21Z Bike: try writing it with list operators instead at first 2021-03-17T20:03:25Z Bike: see where that takes you 2021-03-17T20:03:31Z _death: well, you have ',args in ,@(...) .. maybe just plain args will do 2021-03-17T20:04:06Z Josh_2: well that worked _death 2021-03-17T20:04:49Z _death: double backquote is not the culprit, this time ;) 2021-03-17T20:05:11Z phoe: but nonetheless it's a good occasion to let us all collectively complain about it 2021-03-17T20:05:20Z phoe: I hate double backquote 2021-03-17T20:05:33Z Josh_2: my macro writing macro was working until I added the ,@ .. so id didn't think it was because of the double backquotes 2021-03-17T20:05:48Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-17T20:06:43Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-17T20:07:43Z Bike: what you have to understand is that double backquotes were inserted into creation by the demiurge to distract us from the true light of the emanations. 2021-03-17T20:08:06Z Josh_2: Yes that sounds about right 2021-03-17T20:08:30Z phoe: the demiurge had to insert distractions because otherwise we'd notice the gc pauses 2021-03-17T20:08:30Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-17T20:08:53Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-03-17T20:09:35Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-17T20:10:31Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T20:12:58Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-17T20:13:01Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T20:13:27Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-17T20:14:37Z caret quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-17T20:15:39Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T20:16:02Z _death: and on the third day, backquote was inserted, and it was good, and yet another backquote was inserted, and was now 2*good. 2021-03-17T20:19:34Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-03-17T20:23:17Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-17T20:23:28Z galex-713_ joined #lisp 2021-03-17T20:23:29Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-17T20:24:07Z vutral_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-17T20:24:33Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-17T20:27:56Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T20:28:21Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-17T20:29:36Z DHARMAKAYA joined #lisp 2021-03-17T20:31:06Z aindilis joined #lisp 2021-03-17T20:31:07Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-17T20:31:43Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-17T20:32:17Z jasom: I wouldn't go so far as saying I *hate* double backquote, but certainly refactoring into ,(function-that-uses-backquote) tends to be more readable 2021-03-17T20:33:33Z galex-713_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-17T20:34:00Z SP41 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T20:36:21Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-17T20:38:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: phoe: I think it does, because the functions it calls does, but it's more of a quick hack than anything :) 2021-03-17T20:38:54Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-17T20:39:39Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T20:39:43Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-17T20:40:05Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-17T20:40:53Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-17T20:41:02Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-17T20:42:49Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-17T20:43:57Z mathrick joined #lisp 2021-03-17T20:44:18Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T20:44:29Z cage__ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-17T20:47:40Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-03-17T20:48:23Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-17T20:48:43Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-17T20:49:24Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-17T20:55:10Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-17T20:55:59Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-17T20:58:45Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-17T20:59:40Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-17T21:01:39Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-17T21:02:38Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-17T21:02:50Z galex-713_ joined #lisp 2021-03-17T21:03:01Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-17T21:03:48Z DHARMAKAYA quit (Quit: Turning off a portion of this simulation.) 2021-03-17T21:05:59Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-17T21:06:48Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-17T21:06:52Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-17T21:06:58Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-17T21:07:10Z Jachy joined #lisp 2021-03-17T21:07:12Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-17T21:07:39Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-17T21:08:42Z ficl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-17T21:09:41Z galex-713_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-17T21:09:43Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T21:11:14Z cchristiansen joined #lisp 2021-03-17T21:11:17Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-03-17T21:11:30Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-17T21:11:37Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T21:12:02Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-17T21:13:24Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-17T21:13:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, I think pprint-logical-block might actually handle a bunch of those pritner control variables 2021-03-17T21:13:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs pprint-logical-block 2021-03-17T21:13:33Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_ppr_lo.htm 2021-03-17T21:14:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, it's really annoying to use for various reasons, but it handles all the complicated pretty-printing stuff 2021-03-17T21:15:02Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T21:16:10Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-17T21:17:21Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-17T21:19:14Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2021-03-17T21:19:47Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-17T21:21:37Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-03-17T21:22:36Z schweers quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-17T21:26:12Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T21:29:49Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-03-17T21:32:01Z galex-713_ joined #lisp 2021-03-17T21:32:07Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-17T21:32:18Z karlosz quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-17T21:33:16Z kaiwulf joined #lisp 2021-03-17T21:34:08Z phoe: oh, nice 2021-03-17T21:36:56Z DHARMAKAYA joined #lisp 2021-03-17T21:38:16Z DHARMAKAYA quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-17T21:38:59Z DHARMAKAYA joined #lisp 2021-03-17T21:49:04Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-03-17T21:49:53Z galex-713_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-17T21:50:23Z fiddlerwoaroof doesn't feel satisfied unless I'm in triple-backquote mode 2021-03-17T21:52:18Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-17T21:55:49Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T21:58:10Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-17T22:03:28Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-03-17T22:04:19Z johnjay joined #lisp 2021-03-17T22:13:11Z galex-713_ joined #lisp 2021-03-17T22:13:12Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-17T22:13:59Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-17T22:16:35Z qing joined #lisp 2021-03-17T22:17:30Z galex-713_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-17T22:18:06Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T22:18:33Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-17T22:21:06Z _qing joined #lisp 2021-03-17T22:21:06Z _qing quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-17T22:21:38Z supercoven_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-17T22:24:07Z qing quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-17T22:24:54Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-17T22:26:35Z aindilis quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-17T22:28:00Z aindilis` joined #lisp 2021-03-17T22:30:03Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-17T22:30:44Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T22:32:39Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-17T22:33:59Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-17T22:37:56Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T22:39:22Z aindilis` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-17T22:39:38Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-17T22:39:44Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-17T22:40:58Z aindilis joined #lisp 2021-03-17T22:42:58Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-17T22:44:07Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T22:51:59Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-17T22:52:08Z White_Flame: I wonder if I've done 4 backquotes deep. I know I've done 3. But man, those take a long time to work through 2021-03-17T22:54:32Z pve quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-17T23:01:52Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-17T23:02:08Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-17T23:03:04Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-17T23:03:28Z contrapunctus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-17T23:03:38Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-17T23:05:07Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-03-17T23:06:59Z mathrick_ joined #lisp 2021-03-17T23:10:27Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-17T23:10:43Z akoana joined #lisp 2021-03-17T23:10:58Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-17T23:11:29Z hjudt quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-17T23:13:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://www.cliki.net/Three%20Comma%20Programmer 2021-03-17T23:16:55Z White_Flame: I concur with jasom about breaking out deeper levels of commas into separate functions or macros, once the code gets to a certain size 2021-03-17T23:17:00Z flip214 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-17T23:17:07Z flip214 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T23:17:35Z sturm_ joined #lisp 2021-03-17T23:17:35Z Nilby: double backquotes make me feel like ``(,-_,-) 2021-03-17T23:17:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think the library babel is the only three-comma library 2021-03-17T23:17:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: (on my system) 2021-03-17T23:17:57Z jonatack_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-17T23:22:59Z vaporatorius quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-17T23:23:53Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-17T23:27:22Z charles` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-17T23:29:25Z cosimone quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 28.0.50)) 2021-03-17T23:32:45Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-17T23:32:58Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-03-17T23:41:10Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-17T23:41:38Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-17T23:42:01Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-17T23:44:49Z jmercouris: How to find files next to my asd? 2021-03-17T23:45:03Z jasom: jmercouris: (asdf:system-relative-pathname) 2021-03-17T23:45:06Z jmercouris: Isn’t there a asdf system relative path or something ? 2021-03-17T23:45:14Z jmercouris: You are too quick :-D 2021-03-17T23:46:02Z jmercouris: I’m trying to think about how to distribute assets in systems loaded as extensions for Nyxt 2021-03-17T23:46:23Z jmercouris: I guess for now , that will work well 2021-03-17T23:46:33Z jmercouris: Thanks jasom 2021-03-17T23:46:50Z jasom: IMO that's the correct way to reference bundled assets as long as you are distributing with source 2021-03-17T23:47:27Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-17T23:47:28Z galex-713_ joined #lisp 2021-03-17T23:48:18Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-17T23:48:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: jmercouris: in macos, there's some nice APIs for bundle-relative pathnames 2021-03-17T23:48:59Z jmercouris: Yes, all extensions will be distributed via source 2021-03-17T23:49:24Z jmercouris: fiddlerwoaroof: those I know, but this most work cross platform 2021-03-17T23:50:30Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-03-17T23:51:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: I agree it has to work cross-platform, but people applications to work the way the platform works 2021-03-17T23:51:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: Attempting to unify things like this across-platform makes your application feel out-of-place on the various platforms 2021-03-18T00:06:41Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-18T00:16:15Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-18T00:22:15Z galex-713_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-18T00:24:10Z moon-child quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-18T00:24:27Z moon-child joined #lisp 2021-03-18T00:32:20Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-18T00:38:45Z galex-713_ joined #lisp 2021-03-18T00:39:10Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-18T00:46:36Z galex-713_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-18T00:48:50Z yitzi quit (Quit: yitzi) 2021-03-18T00:49:22Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-18T00:50:14Z yitzi joined #lisp 2021-03-18T00:51:39Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-18T00:55:58Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-18T00:58:51Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-18T01:02:40Z galex-713_ joined #lisp 2021-03-18T01:02:51Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-18T01:07:15Z galex-713_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-18T01:07:55Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-18T01:13:42Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-03-18T01:16:31Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-18T01:19:30Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-18T01:21:26Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-18T01:23:14Z wxie joined #lisp 2021-03-18T01:23:42Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-18T01:26:36Z adlai joined #lisp 2021-03-18T01:26:40Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-18T01:26:55Z notzmv is now known as Guest94966 2021-03-18T01:27:51Z galex-713_ joined #lisp 2021-03-18T01:27:59Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-18T01:28:48Z Guest94966 is now known as notzmv 2021-03-18T01:28:56Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-18T01:36:53Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-18T01:37:08Z sm2n quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-18T01:37:20Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-18T01:40:58Z madage joined #lisp 2021-03-18T01:43:06Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-18T01:43:36Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-18T01:50:21Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-18T01:52:38Z galex-713_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-18T01:58:06Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-03-18T01:59:28Z adlai: why did nobody give minion a strongly-worded opinion about duck typing for when I returned? 2021-03-18T02:00:04Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-18T02:00:22Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-18T02:01:13Z adlai wonders what is the proper extension of "write out at least three samples from the macro's range before writing the defmacro itself" to the problem of fundamental language extensions 2021-03-18T02:02:48Z adlai: e.g., scalpl includes an unspecified, badly implemented version of the "Actor" concurrency model; yet scalpl is arguably no more than two libraries, so there are not enough examples for properly ripping actors.lisp yet 2021-03-18T02:03:08Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-18T02:03:33Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-18T02:04:20Z adlai: meanwhile, my latest bad idea overlaps significantly with the one about duck-typing, although it pertains to the definition of new generic functions, rather than the deliberately concealed abuse of existing ones 2021-03-18T02:04:28Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-18T02:05:52Z adlai: for those who missed the previous screed: the "deliberately concealed abuse of existing ones", i.e. duck-typing a generic function, would be an extension where you could call generic functions on arguments of indeterminate type, without modifying that function's method list 2021-03-18T02:06:56Z galex-713_ joined #lisp 2021-03-18T02:07:08Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-18T02:14:27Z sturm_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-18T02:15:09Z galex-713_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-18T02:16:32Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1) 2021-03-18T02:16:35Z sjtfre joined #lisp 2021-03-18T02:16:35Z slyrus quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-18T02:21:55Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-03-18T02:22:49Z adlai: maybe there are already libraries for this kind of idiocy? 2021-03-18T02:23:33Z adlai is referring to the duck-typing idea, and is already aware of there being libraries for the Actor model 2021-03-18T02:25:18Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-18T02:25:30Z sturm_ joined #lisp 2021-03-18T02:26:09Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-18T02:26:27Z sturm_ left #lisp 2021-03-18T02:26:31Z adlai: however, I have absolutely no idea how to go about searching for this kind of library; it does not fit into the categorisation usually used for listing recommended libraries, because it's not too popular to refer to such fundamental changes. 2021-03-18T02:26:48Z sturm_ joined #lisp 2021-03-18T02:27:36Z sturm_ quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-18T02:28:59Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-18T02:29:36Z long4mud joined #lisp 2021-03-18T02:30:19Z adlai begins by reviewing various libraries that duck-type in the context of sequences 2021-03-18T02:30:46Z wxie joined #lisp 2021-03-18T02:31:02Z Helmholtz joined #lisp 2021-03-18T02:32:14Z gitgood quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-18T02:32:36Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-18T02:32:40Z gitgood joined #lisp 2021-03-18T02:41:22Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-18T02:41:56Z semz joined #lisp 2021-03-18T02:43:06Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-18T02:43:58Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-18T02:44:38Z Helmholtz quit (Quit: Helmholtz) 2021-03-18T02:45:11Z Josh_2: Does duck-typing mean each argument must be quack? 2021-03-18T02:45:32Z Sheilong quit 2021-03-18T02:47:02Z adlai: no 2021-03-18T02:47:09Z Josh_2: sad 2021-03-18T02:48:11Z Josh_2: maybe I should make a library where all arguments must be some variety of duck 2021-03-18T02:48:16Z adlai: in CLese, duck typing means that you could specialise methods on types, in addition to classes 2021-03-18T02:48:41Z Josh_2: well that would be nice 2021-03-18T02:49:33Z adlai: so it's somewhere between a default method, defined by COMPUTE-APPLICABLE-METHODS, that pieces together a monstrous TYPECASE 2021-03-18T02:49:43Z adlai: ... and one that pieces together a monstrous CTYPECASE 2021-03-18T02:50:54Z Helmholtz joined #lisp 2021-03-18T02:51:18Z adlai: it almost certainly does not go as far as ETYPECASE due to the fact that any CL-spirited implementation of the duck typing philosophy would signal a continuable error instead 2021-03-18T02:52:32Z adlai: the other terrible idea partially-overlapping this one is to break lambda list congruency 2021-03-18T02:53:04Z adlai: essentially, equivalence classes for statically determinable calls, instead of required argument congruency 2021-03-18T02:54:13Z adlai notes, in amusement, that nearly every single cliki page encountered in the initial trawl for libraries that might have examples for such patterns leads to Hexstream's public domain works 2021-03-18T02:54:43Z adlai: bloke doesn't seem to drop by IRC too often, though 2021-03-18T02:55:15Z Helmholtz quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-18T02:55:24Z adlai: has anyone here used LIL ? 2021-03-18T02:55:37Z adlai: i.e. https://github.com/fare/lisp-interface-library 2021-03-18T02:57:19Z SP41 quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-18T02:57:47Z DHARMAKAYA quit (Quit: Turning off a portion of this simulation.) 2021-03-18T03:06:18Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-18T03:09:55Z mathrick_ is now known as mathrick 2021-03-18T03:12:38Z adlai: this whole "Interface-Passing Style" is quite an excellent concept to have in mind during this thread, because it is a step in precisely the opposite direction 2021-03-18T03:13:32Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-18T03:14:03Z adlai: i.e., IPS makes the interfaces explicit, and the space of lambda lists becomes an external product against whatever space span the interfaces 2021-03-18T03:19:41Z Nilby: I made a thing which basically just wraps the standard sequence-like functions in generics, so they're extensible. It's a dumb slow idea, but it seems to work just fine for me. LIL/IPS is to fancy for me. 2021-03-18T03:28:08Z kaiwulf quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-18T03:28:46Z Bike: ideally you'd be able to use the sequences extension or the like for that 2021-03-18T03:29:01Z Bike: let's you do that stuff without messing with performance too badly 2021-03-18T03:29:12Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-18T03:31:55Z Nilby: Yes, except that it only works on one? implemetation, and I also added list, string, and character stuff. But it's true I could make some of it run faster on sbcl. 2021-03-18T03:32:00Z prxq_ joined #lisp 2021-03-18T03:32:27Z Nilby: What I really wish is that everywhere had extensible loop. 2021-03-18T03:36:06Z prxq quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-18T03:37:22Z Bike: https://github.com/shinmera/trivial-extensible-sequences abcl, clasp, sbcl, and there's a fallback version also 2021-03-18T03:38:57Z cods quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-18T03:39:45Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-18T03:44:44Z Nilby: Bike: Thanks. The fallback code is pretty close to what I did. One could hope that other implementations could do this too. 2021-03-18T03:58:47Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-18T04:00:10Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-03-18T04:01:22Z Alfr is now known as Guest60816 2021-03-18T04:01:22Z Guest60816 quit (Killed (tepper.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))) 2021-03-18T04:01:26Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-03-18T04:05:19Z akoana left #lisp 2021-03-18T04:05:38Z cods joined #lisp 2021-03-18T04:08:58Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-18T04:10:11Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-03-18T04:10:29Z DHARMAKAYA joined #lisp 2021-03-18T04:13:23Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-03-18T04:14:27Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2021-03-18T04:23:48Z cchristiansen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-18T04:29:38Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-03-18T04:38:07Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-03-18T04:42:49Z wxie joined #lisp 2021-03-18T04:50:02Z adlai: it is a mediocre morning, for I have not yet officially adopted the anaphora library, and nobody else seems to find its stated lack of a maintainer troubling. 2021-03-18T04:50:57Z adlai actually uses that library all over scalpl, so taking over as maintainer is not a completely terrible idea 2021-03-18T04:51:46Z beach: I don't know exactly what that library contains, but many of the anaphoric macros in On Lisp encourage direct violations of the "rules" stated on page 13 of the LUV slides, so I don't use them for that reason. 2021-03-18T04:52:45Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-03-18T04:53:02Z beach: Like, if AWHEN were to be used according to those rules, then IT would always return `true' and no useful value. 2021-03-18T04:53:36Z adlai: it's mostly macros that add one quantum of unhygienity, although they do it consistently with the way that happens in LOOP 2021-03-18T04:54:03Z beach: I also don't use IT in LOOP. 2021-03-18T04:55:16Z adlai has recently encountered the anaphoric-variants library, that purports to make that quantum hygienic, although it still breaks from the exact pattern of variable binding seen in LET etc 2021-03-18T04:56:28Z rozengla` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-18T05:04:20Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-18T05:10:26Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-18T05:10:50Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-18T05:13:57Z sauvin joined #lisp 2021-03-18T05:16:02Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-18T05:16:46Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-18T05:24:51Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-18T05:25:17Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-18T05:29:45Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-18T05:33:51Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-18T05:34:17Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-18T05:34:32Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-18T05:36:54Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-18T05:37:46Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-18T05:38:03Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-18T05:38:03Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2021-03-18T05:38:03Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-18T05:45:55Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-18T05:46:20Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-18T05:50:20Z marusich joined #lisp 2021-03-18T05:55:34Z sjtfre quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-18T06:03:39Z shoshin1 joined #lisp 2021-03-18T06:04:51Z herlocks- joined #lisp 2021-03-18T06:05:14Z herlocksholmes quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-18T06:05:14Z shoshin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-18T06:05:14Z shoshin1 is now known as shoshin 2021-03-18T06:06:50Z sjtfre joined #lisp 2021-03-18T06:08:17Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2021-03-18T06:11:44Z hjudt joined #lisp 2021-03-18T06:11:44Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-18T06:12:11Z phantomics quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-18T06:13:04Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-18T06:15:09Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-18T06:15:15Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-18T06:15:28Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-18T06:15:29Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-18T06:16:36Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-18T06:16:43Z ex_nihilo joined #lisp 2021-03-18T06:17:01Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-18T06:18:25Z sjtfre1 joined #lisp 2021-03-18T06:19:20Z sjtfre quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-18T06:20:48Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-03-18T06:22:35Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-18T06:22:35Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-18T06:24:37Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-18T06:26:56Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-18T06:27:07Z kam1 quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-18T06:34:22Z sjtfre joined #lisp 2021-03-18T06:34:33Z sjtfre1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-18T06:37:34Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-18T06:37:41Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-18T06:37:44Z sjtfre quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-18T06:37:44Z sjtfre1 joined #lisp 2021-03-18T06:42:55Z lukego: Hey I just noticed Serapeum's WITH-BOOLEAN macro and it gets me thinking about whether Lisp macros can be (have been?) used to do speculative optimizations like the "specializations" in a tracing JIT? 2021-03-18T06:44:11Z lukego: For example, you write a function and declare that X Y Z *might* be fixnums, and the compiler compiles the code twice - once with fixnum arithmetic and once with generic arithmetic - and then carefully inserts all necessary guards to branch between them based on actual types at runtime 2021-03-18T06:45:21Z wooden quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-18T06:45:37Z wooden joined #lisp 2021-03-18T06:47:12Z White_Flame: yep, I've done that. Especially in macros where you can blap in multiple copies of the same code body surrounded by different declarations, it's pretty easy 2021-03-18T06:48:06Z White_Flame: (typecase ,x (fixnum ,@body) (double-float ,@body) ...) 2021-03-18T06:48:22Z White_Flame: you don't even need type declarations there, since the typecase implies them 2021-03-18T06:48:46Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-18T06:49:32Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-18T06:52:46Z beach: We do something similar in the SICL sequence functions. Not only for types, but for certain combinations of keyword arguments, such as :TEST and :KEY. 2021-03-18T06:53:44Z sjtfre joined #lisp 2021-03-18T06:53:50Z White_Flame: and also compiler-macros might be useful if things can be statically determined well enough 2021-03-18T06:54:27Z ficl joined #lisp 2021-03-18T06:55:03Z sjtfre1 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-18T06:55:22Z White_Flame: however, that same static analysis should be able to collapse away statically known unused paths of the generic macro expansion as well 2021-03-18T06:55:31Z sjtfre1 joined #lisp 2021-03-18T06:55:36Z White_Flame: and thus leaving more to the compiler than the macro author 2021-03-18T06:58:21Z sjtfre quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-18T06:58:57Z phantomics joined #lisp 2021-03-18T07:04:27Z lukego: Great to hear that this is a known thing. I need to think a bit more about how it corresponds to the optimizations that LuaJIT does. I guess the main things are that you can chain/nest a bunch of those optimizations and that it aggressively inlines function calls to take advantage of the declarations. 2021-03-18T07:04:56Z flip214: Is there a CBOR library for CL? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CBOR Concise Binary Object Representation 2021-03-18T07:05:21Z lukego: It would be cool if you could implement a "LuaJIT" as a Lisp macro :-) and maybe even better to do the specialization annotations directly rather than to detect them at runtime for the sake of sanity 2021-03-18T07:05:27Z Klopsch joined #lisp 2021-03-18T07:07:32Z sjtfre1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-18T07:07:43Z sjtfre joined #lisp 2021-03-18T07:12:53Z sjtfre quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-18T07:13:22Z lukego: White_Flame: I think the nice thing about the runtime-dispatched specialization verses the compiler-macro approach is the simplicity. If you have an intuition for e.g. which arithmetic operations are likely to be fixnum then you can just tell the compiler that - make sure there's a fixnum-optimized version of this code available - rather than proving or promising it. 2021-03-18T07:14:11Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-18T07:14:14Z lukego: but then it interacts non-trivially with the related optimizations that the CPU is doing e.g. that even if you're calling generic arithmetic functions it will speculatively take the fixnum paths and push all the bignum stuff off to the side. 2021-03-18T07:14:55Z lukego: Fun idea to play with in the background anyway. 2021-03-18T07:15:19Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-03-18T07:15:24Z White_Flame: right, and as I said the compiler might collapse the runtime version into a single proven static path anyway, in the right contexts 2021-03-18T07:15:35Z White_Flame: without needing compiler macros 2021-03-18T07:15:36Z varjag quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-18T07:15:52Z lukego: ah 2021-03-18T07:15:55Z hjudt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-18T07:16:08Z White_Flame: so it's kind of best of both worlds 2021-03-18T07:16:44Z White_Flame: however, "intuition" can often be shown wrong by metrics, so it's always good to test such assumptions 2021-03-18T07:16:48Z lukego: yeah true I hadn't considered that you could get a double-payoff when the specializations allow compiler macros etc to kick in for the optimized path 2021-03-18T07:17:12Z moon-child: lukego: I don't think it makes very much sense as macro anyway. The whole point of jit is _dynamic_ tracing, adapting and automatically recompiling code in response to hot paths 2021-03-18T07:17:55Z moon-child: I don't think luajit does this, but afaik hotspot will do things like change branch layouts as workloads change 2021-03-18T07:17:56Z lukego: moon-child: I dunno. In practice the dynamic-ness seems to mostly make people sad because it's too unpredictable. I wonder if a static version might even be better. 2021-03-18T07:18:18Z lukego: LuaJIT approach to changing workload is "oh... it would be better if you avoid doing that" 2021-03-18T07:19:22Z White_Flame: moon-child: the only time this is useful is when the benefits of hoisting the typecheck are high, usually containing loops 2021-03-18T07:20:55Z surabax joined #lisp 2021-03-18T07:21:50Z moon-child: White_Flame: exactly the sort of thing dynamic analysis helps with; you can't always statically determine which loops are hot 2021-03-18T07:21:55Z Major_Biscuit joined #lisp 2021-03-18T07:22:10Z moon-child: (pgo can do that too, granted. I don't think any lisp implementations do pgo, though, but that would be cool) 2021-03-18T07:22:10Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-18T07:22:34Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-18T07:22:46Z lukego: The case where LuaJIT perhaps leveages this optimization the most is actually function calls. If you /think/ that a function definition then instead of making a full call you can make a more direct jump - or even inline - on a fast-path with a "guard" that checks the identity of the function object (and bails to slow path if it's changed) 2021-03-18T07:23:41Z tiwEllien quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-18T07:24:12Z tiwEllien joined #lisp 2021-03-18T07:24:25Z lukego: In that case the JIT is so aggressive that it doesn't even have the concept of a function call. Every call is inlined, without exception, with a bailout from the fast-path if the definition has changed. 2021-03-18T07:26:54Z schweers joined #lisp 2021-03-18T07:26:57Z lukego: (nor does it have the concept of a conditional branch - except for "bail out from fast path" - because all control flow is also predicted/specialized) 2021-03-18T07:27:23Z lukego: anyway, I must try to make a one-page specializing compiler as a Lisp macro one day :) 2021-03-18T07:27:58Z lukego: (you know, based on the premise that what SBCL users really need is to make their programs 10% faster at the cost of 10x slower compilation) 2021-03-18T07:29:21Z sjtfre joined #lisp 2021-03-18T07:29:48Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-18T07:29:54Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-18T07:31:58Z White_Flame: yeah, beach is working on call-site optimization for method dispatch 2021-03-18T07:32:27Z White_Flame: the proper runtime variation of it 2021-03-18T07:32:33Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-18T07:33:02Z White_Flame: however, it's a self-modification of the call site instruction itself, not an inlining of the commonly found function 2021-03-18T07:33:25Z White_Flame: no lisps that I'm aware of due "full" jit recompilation yet 2021-03-18T07:33:36Z White_Flame: (unless you count ABCL's inheriting of JVM features) 2021-03-18T07:33:42Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2021-03-18T07:33:43Z White_Flame: s/due/do/ 2021-03-18T07:35:57Z White_Flame: fastpaths for data specialization remain more targeted, manual optimizations for us all 2021-03-18T07:36:09Z White_Flame: at least for now 2021-03-18T07:36:34Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-18T07:38:42Z matryoshka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-18T07:39:46Z lukego: I've spent quite some years optimizing LuaJIT programs and I have to say that manual static declaration of optimization goals sounds just fine to me. The dynamic stuff is great for prototyping but too much work for productionizing. 2021-03-18T07:39:52Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2021-03-18T07:40:01Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-18T07:40:20Z moon-child: that's fair 2021-03-18T07:40:52Z lukego: LuaJIT programs have the dubious distinction that they often get /slower/ when moving from prototype to production i.e. optimizations are successively disabled to make the performance more predictable. 2021-03-18T07:42:57Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-03-18T07:47:46Z sjtfre quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-18T07:48:05Z sjtfre joined #lisp 2021-03-18T07:48:34Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-18T07:49:03Z beach: White_Flame: Not only for method dispatch. For ordinary function calls too: http://metamodular.com/SICL/call-site-optimization.pdf 2021-03-18T07:51:13Z Major_Biscuit joined #lisp 2021-03-18T07:55:47Z sjtfre quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-18T07:56:06Z sjtfre joined #lisp 2021-03-18T07:56:22Z Demosthe1ex joined #lisp 2021-03-18T07:57:42Z DHARMAKAYA quit (Quit: Turning off a portion of this simulation.) 2021-03-18T07:59:33Z Demosthenex quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-18T08:00:07Z albusp quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-18T08:03:28Z sjtfre quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-18T08:07:33Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-03-18T08:11:00Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-18T08:12:29Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-18T08:13:23Z pve joined #lisp 2021-03-18T08:14:26Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-03-18T08:16:11Z lukego prints beach's paper 2021-03-18T08:18:26Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-18T08:22:05Z beach: lukego: I have come up with several new techniques over the past 7 years, including better generic dispatch, path replication, partial inlining, first-class global environments, etc. But I think this latest one is going to have the most impact. 2021-03-18T08:24:29Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-18T08:24:33Z sm2n joined #lisp 2021-03-18T08:24:58Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-18T08:25:06Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-18T08:27:14Z sauvin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-18T08:27:14Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-18T08:28:44Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-18T08:30:07Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-18T08:30:52Z sauvin joined #lisp 2021-03-18T08:31:13Z notzmv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-18T08:34:34Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-18T08:36:47Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-03-18T08:38:08Z datajerk quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-18T08:38:48Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-18T08:38:57Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-18T08:39:24Z sm2n quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-18T08:39:38Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-18T08:41:04Z SpaceIgor2075 joined #lisp 2021-03-18T08:41:05Z SpaceIgor2075 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-18T08:48:14Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-18T08:48:33Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-18T08:49:01Z Jesin quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-18T08:55:09Z datajerk joined #lisp 2021-03-18T08:55:59Z admich joined #lisp 2021-03-18T08:57:49Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-03-18T08:58:24Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-18T08:58:30Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-18T08:59:02Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2021-03-18T08:59:02Z vaporatorius quit (Changing host) 2021-03-18T08:59:02Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2021-03-18T08:59:11Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-18T08:59:36Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-18T08:59:42Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-18T08:59:57Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-18T09:00:09Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-18T09:00:12Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-18T09:00:25Z wxie joined #lisp 2021-03-18T09:05:31Z White_Flame: beach: ah right, it was for bypassing the dynamism of &key and &optional as well 2021-03-18T09:05:35Z prxq_ quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-03-18T09:05:46Z prxq joined #lisp 2021-03-18T09:06:23Z White_Flame: and return values 2021-03-18T09:07:33Z beach: Yes, and indirections, and, and, ... 2021-03-18T09:09:14Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-18T09:18:45Z OlCe quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-18T09:24:09Z White_Flame: yes, and looking forward to it all :) 2021-03-18T09:25:42Z OlCe joined #lisp 2021-03-18T09:26:46Z cods quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-18T09:32:10Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-03-18T09:32:16Z cods joined #lisp 2021-03-18T09:37:05Z yitzi quit (Quit: yitzi) 2021-03-18T09:37:15Z yitzi joined #lisp 2021-03-18T09:42:59Z schweers quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-18T09:44:26Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-18T09:45:28Z frost-lab quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-18T09:47:54Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-03-18T09:50:48Z beach: And by "impact" I mean "impact on SICL performance". I have absolutely no reason to believe that any other Common Lisp implementation will adopt this technique. 2021-03-18T09:51:09Z sm2n joined #lisp 2021-03-18T09:54:46Z retropikzel joined #lisp 2021-03-18T10:00:06Z vegansbane6963 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-03-18T10:05:43Z Krystof quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-18T10:06:35Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-18T10:08:45Z mrchampion quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-18T10:22:02Z phantomics quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-18T10:23:38Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-18T10:27:12Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-03-18T10:30:30Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2021-03-18T10:31:39Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-03-18T10:32:51Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-18T10:33:54Z kevingal quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-03-18T10:34:16Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-03-18T10:34:54Z Major_Biscuit quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-18T10:37:17Z ljavorsk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-18T10:37:21Z phantomics joined #lisp 2021-03-18T10:37:36Z phantomics quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-18T10:37:51Z phantomics joined #lisp 2021-03-18T10:38:29Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-03-18T10:39:42Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-18T10:39:53Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2021-03-18T10:41:36Z Krystof joined #lisp 2021-03-18T10:46:08Z Jesin joined #lisp 2021-03-18T10:48:27Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-18T10:53:13Z Major_Biscuit joined #lisp 2021-03-18T10:54:55Z heisig joined #lisp 2021-03-18T11:02:26Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2021-03-18T11:05:19Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-18T11:06:58Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-18T11:08:17Z devon joined #lisp 2021-03-18T11:09:26Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-18T11:10:07Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-18T11:14:57Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-18T11:15:21Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-18T11:15:56Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-18T11:16:55Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-03-18T11:17:16Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2021-03-18T11:17:24Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-18T11:19:25Z yitzi quit (Quit: yitzi) 2021-03-18T11:19:35Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-18T11:20:04Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-18T11:20:34Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-18T11:24:42Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-18T11:25:51Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2021-03-18T11:26:38Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-18T11:28:48Z mrchampion joined #lisp 2021-03-18T11:32:03Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-18T11:32:52Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-18T11:37:19Z yitzi joined #lisp 2021-03-18T11:39:16Z lukego: beach: is "this latest one" the one from the paper, or another later one? 2021-03-18T11:39:30Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2021-03-18T11:41:26Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-18T11:43:22Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-18T11:44:02Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-18T11:52:21Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-03-18T11:55:06Z beach: lukego: The one from the call-site paper. 2021-03-18T11:55:37Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-18T11:59:47Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-18T11:59:51Z matryoshka joined #lisp 2021-03-18T12:00:29Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp 2021-03-18T12:03:36Z leb joined #lisp 2021-03-18T12:03:54Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-18T12:07:59Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-18T12:14:08Z Krystof quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-18T12:18:31Z OlCe quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-18T12:18:31Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-18T12:19:37Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-18T12:22:24Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-18T12:23:12Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-18T12:28:30Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-18T12:29:25Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-03-18T12:30:41Z rumbler3_ joined #lisp 2021-03-18T12:35:02Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-18T12:35:13Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-18T12:37:57Z long4mud quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-18T12:38:23Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-18T12:40:55Z schweers joined #lisp 2021-03-18T12:48:42Z warweasle joined #lisp 2021-03-18T12:51:31Z Kingsy: anyone use vim and lisp together here? I have a few questions 2021-03-18T12:51:47Z beach: It is best just to ask the questions. 2021-03-18T12:52:52Z Kingsy: np. I want some good completion on vim. I can see there is https://github.com/neovim/nvim-lspconfig/blob/master/CONFIG.md#clojure_lsp for example. which is great. I was just wondering what optiojns are available for common lisp? 2021-03-18T12:53:15Z Kingsy: so I am using vlime (as of yesterday) and I havent seen any completion yet. how far can I take vlime on this front? 2021-03-18T12:54:22Z flip214: Kingsy: if you have a Common Lisp connected via swank, and press eg. "(m-v-b" you should get a list of possible expansions (like multiple-value-bind). 2021-03-18T12:54:27Z leb quit 2021-03-18T12:54:48Z Kingsy: flip214: so. autocomplete wont work without swank connected right? 2021-03-18T12:55:38Z supercoven joined #lisp 2021-03-18T12:55:38Z flip214: Kingsy: no. nvim has no idea _which_ Lisp you're using (Common Lisp, Scheme, kotlin, Clojure, ...) and so won't offer anything; you need to connect to a "Lesser Lisp" (in emacs diction). 2021-03-18T12:56:06Z Kingsy: ok 1 second. I have swank running here. I'll connect to it in nvim and see what I can find 2021-03-18T12:57:10Z Kingsy: ah ha! yeah I see this! 2021-03-18T12:57:46Z schweers quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-18T12:59:34Z flip214: well, my typical workflow is "vim some/file.lisp", then ",rr" to start my lisp, and then I've got .vimrc files in the local directories that allocate , and , to load the system here resp. run the tests on it. 2021-03-18T13:00:06Z flip214: and alone remembers the current form and sends it to swank, sends the current and the remembered form. 2021-03-18T13:00:35Z flip214: so to "define" a test-form, and to change eg. a function and to run a test-form with the new definition. 2021-03-18T13:00:35Z Kingsy: I am guessing these are custom bindings? 2021-03-18T13:02:34Z flip214: Kingsy: https://gist.github.com/phmarek/6c39eb6170c9e56f312dc69d1ebc525c 2021-03-18T13:03:14Z flip214: , and , do eg. :call SlimvEval(["(asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op :alexandria)"]) 2021-03-18T13:07:57Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-18T13:08:16Z kevingal: I spotted this article a while ago, though I never tried to set it up myself: https://susam.in/blog/lisp-in-vim-with-slimv-or-vlime/ 2021-03-18T13:08:16Z kevingal: Might be helpful. 2021-03-18T13:11:36Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-03-18T13:16:27Z flip214: kevingal: well, if you have any more questions, just ask them here. You might need to be patient, though - different timezones and so on. 2021-03-18T13:22:28Z Sheilong joined #lisp 2021-03-18T13:23:48Z Kingsy: thanks for this! 2021-03-18T13:24:20Z flip214: np 2021-03-18T13:24:36Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-18T13:28:10Z Kingsy: flip214: tbh after reading that I am still not sure what f2 and f3 do. or what alexandria is :D I have more reading tro do 2021-03-18T13:34:54Z flip214: Kingsy: and are two function keys on a normal 104-key-keyboard that I allocated for my uses in Lisp. 2021-03-18T13:35:07Z flip214: sorry, should have been more explicit there. 2021-03-18T13:36:58Z wsinatra_ joined #lisp 2021-03-18T13:37:20Z wsinatra quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-18T13:37:27Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-18T13:37:53Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-03-18T13:40:44Z Krystof joined #lisp 2021-03-18T13:50:35Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-18T13:53:29Z OlCe joined #lisp 2021-03-18T13:53:54Z SP41 joined #lisp 2021-03-18T13:56:39Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-03-18T13:59:28Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-18T14:00:06Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-18T14:00:46Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-18T14:02:51Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-18T14:02:58Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-18T14:04:15Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-18T14:07:09Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-18T14:09:34Z kevingal: flip214: I'm a pretty contented emacs user for the moment, haha. Just sharing it for Kingsy's enjoyment. 2021-03-18T14:09:46Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-18T14:10:16Z joast joined #lisp 2021-03-18T14:11:39Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-18T14:13:05Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-18T14:13:29Z admich quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-03-18T14:16:18Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-18T14:17:18Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-18T14:17:20Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-18T14:23:21Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-18T14:25:08Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-18T14:25:23Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-18T14:25:54Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-18T14:28:07Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-18T14:28:36Z flip214: kevingal: ah yeah, sorry, got confused by the similar nicknames. 2021-03-18T14:30:58Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-18T14:32:00Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-18T14:32:25Z nullx002 joined #lisp 2021-03-18T14:34:41Z cosimone quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 28.0.50)) 2021-03-18T14:35:03Z sjl joined #lisp 2021-03-18T14:45:40Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-18T14:46:10Z rumbler3_ joined #lisp 2021-03-18T14:46:44Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-18T14:50:29Z corpix_ joined #lisp 2021-03-18T14:51:13Z corpix quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-18T14:53:01Z wsinatra_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-18T14:55:10Z rumbler3_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-18T14:55:29Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-18T14:57:22Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-18T14:57:49Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-18T14:58:07Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-18T14:58:14Z devon quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-18T14:58:53Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-18T15:03:02Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-03-18T15:03:24Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-18T15:03:45Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-18T15:06:49Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-18T15:07:13Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-18T15:07:21Z yitzi quit (Quit: yitzi) 2021-03-18T15:07:47Z yitzi joined #lisp 2021-03-18T15:08:46Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2021-03-18T15:11:39Z luna_is_here quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-18T15:12:09Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-18T15:12:37Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-18T15:14:29Z luna_is_here joined #lisp 2021-03-18T15:15:14Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-18T15:16:44Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-18T15:17:02Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-18T15:19:18Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-18T15:19:37Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-18T15:24:04Z Josh_2: Good afternoon 2021-03-18T15:24:38Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-18T15:24:42Z luni: Thank you Josh_2 2021-03-18T15:24:52Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-18T15:25:15Z Josh_2: For what? 2021-03-18T15:25:38Z luni: For the greeting 2021-03-18T15:25:45Z Josh_2: Oh right :P 2021-03-18T15:26:06Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-18T15:29:57Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-18T15:31:09Z luna_is_here quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-18T15:32:06Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-18T15:32:39Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-18T15:33:02Z luna_is_here joined #lisp 2021-03-18T15:36:53Z ex_nihilo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-18T15:37:42Z yitzi quit (Quit: yitzi) 2021-03-18T15:38:05Z yitzi joined #lisp 2021-03-18T15:38:15Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-18T15:38:53Z lowryder joined #lisp 2021-03-18T15:40:57Z gioyik joined #lisp 2021-03-18T15:44:30Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-18T15:50:15Z guicho joined #lisp 2021-03-18T15:50:30Z wsinatra quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-18T15:50:50Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-03-18T15:51:27Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-03-18T15:51:51Z yitzi quit (Quit: yitzi) 2021-03-18T15:51:56Z Demosthe1ex is now known as Demosthenex 2021-03-18T15:58:18Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3)) 2021-03-18T16:01:21Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-18T16:02:39Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-18T16:06:54Z glamas_ quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.4 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-18T16:07:03Z glamas joined #lisp 2021-03-18T16:08:28Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-18T16:10:55Z sauvin_ joined #lisp 2021-03-18T16:13:50Z sauvin quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-18T16:14:15Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-18T16:14:26Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-18T16:15:05Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-18T16:15:09Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-18T16:20:11Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-18T16:26:45Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-18T16:28:11Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-18T16:29:39Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-03-18T16:39:08Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-03-18T16:42:07Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-18T16:47:07Z sauvin_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-18T16:48:43Z amk quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-18T16:48:53Z amk joined #lisp 2021-03-18T16:55:50Z rumbler3_ joined #lisp 2021-03-18T16:57:02Z Josh_2 quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-03-18T16:57:59Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-03-18T17:00:18Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-18T17:02:03Z waleee-cl joined #lisp 2021-03-18T17:02:16Z tiwEllien quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-18T17:03:18Z tiwEllien joined #lisp 2021-03-18T17:05:14Z DHARMAKAYA joined #lisp 2021-03-18T17:07:12Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-18T17:08:03Z matryoshka joined #lisp 2021-03-18T17:08:03Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-18T17:08:14Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-18T17:17:02Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-18T17:17:41Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-18T17:18:15Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-18T17:23:02Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-18T17:23:38Z heisig quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-18T17:24:47Z lowryder joined #lisp 2021-03-18T17:27:59Z ficl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-18T17:29:40Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-18T17:31:11Z lowryder joined #lisp 2021-03-18T17:32:56Z nullx002 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-18T17:41:43Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-18T17:43:51Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2021-03-18T17:47:42Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-18T17:52:26Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-18T17:59:30Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-18T18:00:45Z warweasle quit (Quit: gotta go.) 2021-03-18T18:01:30Z lowryder joined #lisp 2021-03-18T18:03:54Z sauvin joined #lisp 2021-03-18T18:08:29Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-18T18:13:50Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-18T18:15:52Z lowryder joined #lisp 2021-03-18T18:17:47Z shka_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2021-03-18T18:17:50Z sauvin quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-18T18:18:27Z supercoven_ joined #lisp 2021-03-18T18:21:43Z supercoven quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-18T18:26:21Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3)) 2021-03-18T18:27:12Z dbotton: Is there a good way to embed a file in your source code? 2021-03-18T18:29:45Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-03-18T18:35:03Z Nilby: dbotton: It depends what you mean by good, and what kind of file, but you can always compress and base64 encode it and stick it in a string. 2021-03-18T18:36:17Z dbotton: That is more or less what I am looking for, question is more is there a resource for doing that? 2021-03-18T18:36:32Z dbotton: Tool or library 2021-03-18T18:38:54Z _death: not tried it, but maybe (defvar *foo* #.(make-array 1234 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8) :initial-contents ...)) could work.. when you compile-file it, the array may be externalized so that the fasl contains the binary data as-is 2021-03-18T18:41:23Z kaiwulf joined #lisp 2021-03-18T18:42:16Z Nilby: dbotton: I don't know of one, but there probably is. But I imagine things like chipz, salza2, and cl-base64 and a few lines of glue code could do it. 2021-03-18T18:42:21Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-18T18:42:23Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-18T18:43:27Z _death: I guess the question is, why would you do that.. why not just have an assets directory? and if you want it part of an image, just read it before saving the image 2021-03-18T18:44:13Z _death: in languages that don't support saving an image, I understand why it may be needed (indeed one of my first C programs did just that..) 2021-03-18T18:45:56Z jasom: dbotton: I agree with _death that reading the file in at load-time is probably superior to embedding it in a source file 2021-03-18T18:46:09Z dbotton: Most of the time I agree 2021-03-18T18:46:40Z dbotton: The issue here was to deliver an asset that may change in the future with my code 2021-03-18T18:46:57Z dbotton: I guess in theory could just copy it automatically at compile time 2021-03-18T18:47:12Z jasom: right 2021-03-18T18:48:05Z jasom: compile-time vs load-time probably doesn't matter in practice on many implementatinos since FASLs tend to be not very portable. 2021-03-18T18:49:51Z Nilby: It's pretty common to see base64 blobs in json, but Lisp people seem to like to keep lower overhead and just read binary data directly. 2021-03-18T18:53:02Z Odin-: I think that's a niche that largely exists because JavaScript had literally no decent way to handle binary data at all for a long time. 2021-03-18T18:54:15Z ebrasca quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-18T18:54:21Z _death: welp, I just tried my defvar form with sbcl.. indeed a 17563 bytes long binary data resulted in a 17836 bytes long fasl, so that may be a viable solution 2021-03-18T18:56:24Z jasom: _death: you get something like a 3.8x increase in size of the source though, right? (2.8 base-10 digits per byte, plus the space) 2021-03-18T18:57:00Z _death: jasom: no, it was much longer because it was pretty printed :p 2021-03-18T18:57:25Z _death: here's a starter https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2347#2347 2021-03-18T18:59:37Z _death: I do have something like (defvar *vga-palette* (let ((*read-base* 16)) (read-from-string "..."))) somewhere 2021-03-18T18:59:38Z _death: 2021-03-18T19:00:30Z _death: though it's a list of lists, rather than an octet vector 2021-03-18T19:05:57Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-18T19:05:59Z orivej_ joined #lisp 2021-03-18T19:08:24Z _death: if sbcl has foo:(x y z) why not #x(DE AD BE EF) 2021-03-18T19:09:12Z phoe: hm 2021-03-18T19:09:31Z phoe: nice 2021-03-18T19:10:16Z Noisytoot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-18T19:12:16Z Noisytoot joined #lisp 2021-03-18T19:14:19Z warweasle joined #lisp 2021-03-18T19:23:45Z IPmonger quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-18T19:24:42Z cosimone quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 28.0.50)) 2021-03-18T19:26:58Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-18T19:27:51Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-18T19:29:39Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-18T19:30:38Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2021-03-18T19:31:58Z guicho quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-18T19:32:35Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-18T19:33:28Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2021-03-18T19:36:26Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-18T19:37:25Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-18T19:37:43Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-18T19:41:52Z cosimone quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 28.0.50)) 2021-03-18T19:42:50Z flip214: _death: ain't it FOO::(x y z)? that'd mean using #XX(C0 01 BA BE) for consistency 2021-03-18T19:43:10Z phoe: flip214: depends if you want internal or external symbols 2021-03-18T19:43:43Z flip214: we'd want unsigned integers, I guess 2021-03-18T19:43:54Z phoe: ...actually, gasp 2021-03-18T19:43:57Z _death: flip214: yeah, I think it's only implemented for :: 2021-03-18T19:43:59Z phoe: it is foo::(x y z)! 2021-03-18T19:44:06Z phoe: single colon is not working 2021-03-18T19:45:17Z Alloc joined #lisp 2021-03-18T19:45:58Z _death: #36R(need more colons) 2021-03-18T19:49:26Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-03-18T19:49:27Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-18T19:49:47Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-18T19:51:27Z Kingsy: with vlime, can I auto format / indent entire files? 2021-03-18T19:51:27Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-18T19:51:29Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-03-18T19:51:40Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-03-18T19:51:50Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-18T19:52:08Z moon-child: Kingsy: probably, same as with regular vim; gg=G or gggqG 2021-03-18T19:52:13Z moon-child: s/;/:/ 2021-03-18T19:52:28Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2021-03-18T19:52:58Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-18T19:53:28Z Kingsy: yeah I was doing that. just wanted to make sure it was getting it correct. I thought vlime might have something built in 2021-03-18T19:54:25Z flip214: Kingsy: it has: indentexpr=vlime#plugin#CalcCurIndent() 2021-03-18T19:54:48Z flip214: it just keeps the same keypress as vim for indentation 2021-03-18T19:55:30Z Kingsy: ah ok! great. 2021-03-18T19:56:44Z jasom: gg=G'' to return to where you started 2021-03-18T19:57:17Z Kingsy: weird! when I go to type with vlime it brings up the auto complete but only for a split second then it vanishes. 2021-03-18T19:57:27Z Kingsy: flip214: ever seen that before? 2021-03-18T19:57:39Z Kingsy: jasom: cheers 2021-03-18T19:58:21Z stylewarning: are there any robust implementations of tree-based map-like data structures in Common Lisp as an alternative to hash tables? 2021-03-18T19:58:39Z _death: fset has one 2021-03-18T19:58:42Z Alloc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-18T19:58:46Z stylewarning: ah yes, of course 2021-03-18T19:58:57Z Alloc joined #lisp 2021-03-18T19:59:09Z jasom: I need to dust off some of my trie implementations and get them more robust 2021-03-18T20:07:25Z warweasle quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 26.1) 2021-03-18T20:07:34Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-18T20:08:33Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-03-18T20:11:54Z sjl: stylewarning: https://github.com/danshapero/cl-hamt/ may be worth a look (based on Clojure's data structures) 2021-03-18T20:12:41Z stylewarning: awesome, thanks for the pointer 2021-03-18T20:13:53Z jasom: Sometimes I wish generalized references could be passed around as values 2021-03-18T20:14:11Z Alloc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-18T20:14:30Z Alloc joined #lisp 2021-03-18T20:14:42Z moon-child: jasom: you can do that with a closure 2021-03-18T20:15:46Z sz0 joined #lisp 2021-03-18T20:15:52Z jasom: moon-child: but at a possible performance cost. You cant do e.g. (let ((x (gref (gethash foo bar))) ...) and use X inside the body of the let without (possibly) doing a hash-lookup each time 2021-03-18T20:16:44Z moon-child: that's fair 2021-03-18T20:18:09Z Alloc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-18T20:18:38Z _death: you could have a macro that does get-setf-expansion then let over lambda dance.. of course that changes the semantics a bit 2021-03-18T20:19:26Z jasom: _death: yeah, I've done get-setf-expansion tricks before which is what made me say it 2021-03-18T20:22:55Z _death: I was sure pjb had some locatives code around.. hmm 2021-03-18T20:23:36Z _death: maybe it was just a usenet post 2021-03-18T20:23:40Z admich joined #lisp 2021-03-18T20:26:05Z Bike: seems like there would be some sharp edges there. if it never did another hash lookup (like, it kept the spot in the hash vector around or something) then as soon as you rehashed problems would occur 2021-03-18T20:26:20Z Bike: you could introduce some kind of flag to deal with that but then there'd be some overhead there 2021-03-18T20:35:54Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-18T20:36:47Z refpga joined #lisp 2021-03-18T20:38:58Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-18T20:39:24Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-18T20:40:29Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-18T20:41:09Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-18T20:48:56Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-03-18T20:50:30Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-18T20:53:58Z rogersm quit 2021-03-18T20:54:27Z orivej_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-18T20:55:39Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-03-18T20:57:48Z Klopsch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-18T21:06:48Z solrize joined #lisp 2021-03-18T21:07:13Z solrize: if i want a hash table indexed by strings, am i supposed to have to use :test #'equal and is that a bad idea? 2021-03-18T21:08:00Z refpga quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-18T21:08:39Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-03-18T21:08:39Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2021-03-18T21:08:39Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-03-18T21:09:05Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-03-18T21:09:15Z jasom: solrize: yes, and it's a good idea 2021-03-18T21:10:08Z jasom: solrize: some implementations (I forget which) also support :test #'string= which may be more optimized for strings, but it's not portable 2021-03-18T21:11:42Z josh` joined #lisp 2021-03-18T21:12:01Z villanella quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-18T21:12:09Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-03-18T21:12:28Z josh`: I keep tryna use ~ so I can format my format string nicely but I keep getting an error saying unknown format directive character space 2021-03-18T21:12:46Z Bike: use what, exactly? 2021-03-18T21:12:51Z jasom: josh`: are you doing (format t "~ " ...)? 2021-03-18T21:12:53Z Bike: "~ " in a format string is actually wrong 2021-03-18T21:12:59Z josh`: Well no 2021-03-18T21:13:02Z jasom: josh`: you probably want ~A? 2021-03-18T21:13:02Z josh`: its like "~ 2021-03-18T21:13:05Z josh`: oops 2021-03-18T21:13:28Z josh`: its "~#\Newline the rest of my string" 2021-03-18T21:13:40Z josh`: #\newline is just representing where I would hit return 2021-03-18T21:13:46Z jasom: josh`: for a literal tilde, you want "~~" 2021-03-18T21:13:52Z jasom: josh`: in a format string, that is 2021-03-18T21:14:19Z josh`: Well I don't want a literal tilde, I want to be able to add a newline so I can format my format string nicely 2021-03-18T21:15:17Z admich quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-18T21:15:49Z jasom: josh`: it works fine for me 2021-03-18T21:16:03Z josh`: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/22_cic.htm 2021-03-18T21:16:04Z jasom: josh`: is perhaps your editor adding a space before the newline? 2021-03-18T21:16:08Z josh`: hmm 2021-03-18T21:16:26Z josh`: I am on an extremely fresh version of emacs as I just changed linux distro 2021-03-18T21:16:31Z josh`: so thats probably it 2021-03-18T21:16:40Z jasom: emacs ought-not be doing that 2021-03-18T21:17:56Z josh`: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2349#2349 2021-03-18T21:18:06Z josh`: my emacs config is pretty darn bare 2021-03-18T21:19:00Z josh`: Thats why I'm josh` not Josh_2 :O 2021-03-18T21:20:31Z _death: try delete-trailing-whitespace 2021-03-18T21:21:23Z karlosz quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-18T21:23:13Z edgar-rft quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-18T21:23:43Z edgar-xyz joined #lisp 2021-03-18T21:24:38Z Nilby: it's unlikey, but watch out typing a format string after a newline on ssh 2021-03-18T21:26:34Z adlai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-18T21:26:36Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-18T21:27:11Z aindilis quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-18T21:27:28Z adlai joined #lisp 2021-03-18T21:27:31Z cosimone: hello, does anyone know if it's possible in any way to match the same exact method on different parameter data types? 2021-03-18T21:28:53Z aindilis joined #lisp 2021-03-18T21:29:02Z samebchase-5 joined #lisp 2021-03-18T21:29:15Z samebchase- quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-18T21:29:18Z jasom: cosimone: methods match on classes, not types, but I'm not sure I understand your question? 2021-03-18T21:29:46Z jasom: cosimone: you mean have the same method match several different specializers? 2021-03-18T21:30:20Z jasom: cosimone: If so, I've always just done an inline function and then defined a bunch of methods that call that, but there might be a better way 2021-03-18T21:30:27Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-18T21:30:47Z attila_lendvai_ joined #lisp 2021-03-18T21:30:48Z varjag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-18T21:30:51Z _death: you can't.. what you can do is move the body to another function and call that in both methods, for example 2021-03-18T21:30:52Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-18T21:31:06Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-03-18T21:31:12Z Gromboli quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-18T21:31:17Z _death: or you may be able to have the two classes inherit from a superclass on which you specialize a method 2021-03-18T21:31:22Z cosimone: sure, that's what i'm doing right now, i was wondering if what i was doing was redundant 2021-03-18T21:31:33Z Gromboli joined #lisp 2021-03-18T21:31:49Z mindCrime_ quit (Excess Flood) 2021-03-18T21:32:14Z cosimone: the superclass approach seems overkill if dispatching on non-user-defined types, but i can see it making sense with user-defined classes 2021-03-18T21:32:19Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-18T21:33:30Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-03-18T21:35:10Z Nilby: Of course you can also leave a parameter unspecialized, or of vague type like sequence. 2021-03-18T21:35:20Z _death: I guess you could also go for the overoverkill and use the mop :) 2021-03-18T21:36:05Z josh`: off-topic but kinda not, can someone show me their emacs config relating to tabs and indenting etc 2021-03-18T21:37:57Z cosimone: nah, thanks for the suggestions, but i'll keep delegating to an auxiliary function :^) 2021-03-18T21:38:04Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-18T21:42:08Z akoana joined #lisp 2021-03-18T21:44:36Z cchristiansen joined #lisp 2021-03-18T21:45:15Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-03-18T21:46:58Z xlei quit (Excess Flood) 2021-03-18T21:47:56Z jasom: My CLHS-fu is weak today. Is there an equivalent to (prog1 X (setf X ...) (i.e. like setf but returns the old value in the place? 2021-03-18T21:48:25Z jasom: clhs shiftf 2021-03-18T21:48:26Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_shiftf.htm 2021-03-18T21:48:33Z jasom: found it 2021-03-18T21:50:54Z |3b|: are numbers, characters, etc. ever "otherwise inaccessible" for purposes of dynamic extent? in particular bignums or other variants that are always boxed 2021-03-18T21:51:06Z zaquest quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-18T21:51:30Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-03-18T21:51:31Z |3b| isn't sure if 1 and 1 are distinct "objects" or not 2021-03-18T21:51:48Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-18T21:51:51Z OlCe quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-18T21:52:19Z josh`: Okay fixed it 2021-03-18T21:52:33Z srji quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-18T21:52:47Z srji joined #lisp 2021-03-18T21:52:48Z pve quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-18T21:53:01Z Bike: what's the context? i mean, the language is set up so that numbers can be distinct objects even if they are equal 2021-03-18T21:53:40Z jasom: |3b|: every object is an otherwise inaccessible part of itself, so I think yes 2021-03-18T21:53:45Z saturn2 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2021-03-18T21:53:52Z xlei joined #lisp 2021-03-18T21:54:35Z |3b|: of if i store a number into another place, is it still the same object 2021-03-18T21:54:35Z |3b|: *or 2021-03-18T21:54:47Z jasom: so (let ((x (some-fn-returning-bignum)) (declare (dynamic-extent x)) ...) should *not* return the bignum from x 2021-03-18T21:54:52Z clone_of_saturn joined #lisp 2021-03-18T21:54:56Z clone_of_saturn is now known as saturn2 2021-03-18T21:55:00Z Bike: i'd say that's implementation-defined, and the implementation is allowed to say yes it's the same object 2021-03-18T21:55:11Z saturn2 quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-18T21:55:31Z jasom: an implementation could allow you to safely return it, but it would be non-portable to depend on it 2021-03-18T21:55:36Z clone_of_saturn joined #lisp 2021-03-18T21:55:44Z clone_of_saturn is now known as saturn2 2021-03-18T21:55:46Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-18T21:56:03Z spacebat2 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-18T21:56:23Z spacebat2 joined #lisp 2021-03-18T21:56:42Z |3b|: context is dynamic extent declarations on arrays, can i return the contents 2021-03-18T21:56:42Z |3b| notes that one of the examples does that 2021-03-18T21:57:25Z |3b|: jasom: but if i can type in that number, does that can't as making it accessible? 2021-03-18T21:57:25Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-18T21:57:25Z |3b|: *count 2021-03-18T21:57:25Z |3b| can't type today (or most days for that matter) 2021-03-18T21:57:26Z jasom: I do think it's safe to assume that separately constructed objects are either distinct or unboxed... 2021-03-18T21:57:44Z jasom: otherwise dynamic-extent could never work 2021-03-18T21:58:09Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-18T21:58:25Z Nilby: "contorted-example" 2021-03-18T21:58:39Z jasom: so (let ((x 1234567890) (declare (dynamic-extent x)) 1234567890) should IMO be safe regardless of whether or not 1234567890 is a fixnum or bignum. That's not to say that some implementations don't do that wrong, but I would push for it to be classified as a bug if they did. 2021-03-18T21:58:51Z sxmx quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-18T21:59:13Z sxmx joined #lisp 2021-03-18T21:59:22Z |3b|: anything that is EQ comparable is always a new object, so dx works for those, and that covers a lot of things 2021-03-18T21:59:55Z Bike: ugh, now you've got me reading the weirdly phrased definition 2021-03-18T22:00:03Z |3b|: and i think it wouldn't affect things much if it did define whether numbers were the same object or not for purposes of DX 2021-03-18T22:00:06Z Bike: "for each value vij that vari takes on, and for each object xijk that is an otherwise inaccessible part of vij at any time when vij becomes the value of vari" 2021-03-18T22:00:12Z jasom: |3b|: and if you construct it separately then it is either 1) interned (so not otherwise inaccessible) or 2) a distinct object 2021-03-18T22:00:16Z Bike: in the example, the number is put into the array after the fact 2021-03-18T22:00:23Z |3b|: you'd just end up with a stack allocated list/vector/whatever containing heap-allocated numbers if they weren't immediate values 2021-03-18T22:00:30Z |3b|: but i'm not sure the spec actually requires that 2021-03-18T22:00:31Z Bike: so maybe its storage isn't implicated 2021-03-18T22:00:47Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-18T22:00:53Z |3b|: but i don't "construct" numbers 2021-03-18T22:00:54Z Bike: i mean, the value of A is that one vector 2021-03-18T22:01:18Z jasom: I think (let ((x (cons 1234567890)) (declare (dynamic-extent x)) (car x)) is disallowed for the case where 1234567890 is a bignum 2021-03-18T22:01:20Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-18T22:01:20Z supercoven_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-18T22:02:06Z Bike: in that case the number is part of the cons when it's constructed, i.e. when vij becomes the value of vari 2021-03-18T22:02:09Z Bike: so yes 2021-03-18T22:02:10Z jasom: for the same reason that a gensym would be disallowed 2021-03-18T22:02:37Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2021-03-18T22:02:59Z |3b|: gensyms are EQ though, and can be described as "constructed" by gensym or whatever 2021-03-18T22:03:06Z Bike: but i think based on the definition merely storing a new value into an existing value bound to the variable might not implicate the storage of the new value 2021-03-18T22:03:09Z motersen joined #lisp 2021-03-18T22:03:15Z |3b|: 2 gensyms are defined to not be EQ, so are definitely not the same object 2021-03-18T22:03:23Z Bike: so dynamic-extent doesn't allow, like, copying objects, so to speak 2021-03-18T22:03:23Z solrize: weird, sbcl has #'string= but doesn't allow using it as a test for hash 2021-03-18T22:03:31Z |3b|: 1234567890 and 1234567890 may or may not be EQ, even if bignums 2021-03-18T22:03:40Z Bike: solrize: you can use sbcl's define-hash-table-test extension to do that 2021-03-18T22:03:53Z Bike: solrize: however, as someone said before, make-hash-table only accepts eq, eql, equal, or equalp in the standard 2021-03-18T22:04:02Z Odin-: solrize: Isn't that because the CL spec doesn't allow it? 2021-03-18T22:04:13Z Bike: solrize: you need a hash function that works with the predicate, so you can't just put in arbitrary predicates 2021-03-18T22:04:21Z jasom: solrize: string= is part of the standard, string= as a hash-table test function is not 2021-03-18T22:04:22Z _death: do implementations mutate bignums in practice? 2021-03-18T22:04:41Z solrize: ah thanks 2021-03-18T22:04:47Z _death: it would be strange if (incf x) would allocate a bignum each time 2021-03-18T22:04:50Z |3b|: jasom: mostly i'm just wondering whether the spec explicitly says it is safe or not safe though, rather than whether it can be expected to work :) 2021-03-18T22:05:05Z sm2n quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-18T22:05:29Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-03-18T22:05:31Z solrize: _death it would have to copy the bignum unless the compiler knew there were no other references to it 2021-03-18T22:05:36Z Odin-: CLHS takes (eq 3 3) as an example of something that may or may not be true, depending on the implementation. 2021-03-18T22:05:43Z _death: solrize: right.. I'm asking if they actually do that 2021-03-18T22:05:49Z sm2n joined #lisp 2021-03-18T22:05:51Z hendursaga quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-18T22:06:09Z solrize: well the situatuations were the compiler could tell would be limited 2021-03-18T22:06:16Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-03-18T22:06:51Z |3b|: Odin-: right, that's what makes it unclear whether two numbers with the same type and value are the same "object" for spec purposed or not 2021-03-18T22:07:12Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-18T22:07:17Z Bike: sbcl has code for mutating bignums, but i think it's only used in internal operators 2021-03-18T22:07:28Z Odin-: Well, it's explicitly implementation-dependent. 2021-03-18T22:07:48Z Odin-: So I guess it makes sense that it's unclear what the spec says. 2021-03-18T22:08:16Z Bike: e.g. in bignum-gcd it allocates two intermediate bignums and repeatedly mutates them. 2021-03-18T22:08:21Z Bike: (sometimes) 2021-03-18T22:08:27Z |3b|: not even implementation dependent, a particular implementation is allowed to do so sometimes and not others 2021-03-18T22:09:00Z _death: Bike: I expected that.. but what about user code? 2021-03-18T22:09:05Z Odin-: Well, from the spec's perspective that's just an implementation choice. 2021-03-18T22:09:49Z Bike: given that sbcl uses these operators manually in its own code, i would guess that there aren't any compiler transformations in place to turn standard operations into mutating operations 2021-03-18T22:10:18Z Bike: i t hink it would be pretty difficult in practice for the compiler to figure out whether bignums are reused 2021-03-18T22:10:22Z _death: Bike: I feel a trivial-bignums coming on :) 2021-03-18T22:14:56Z |3b|: on sbcl, (let ((a (make-array 2 :initial-element (expt 2 66)))) (eq (expt 2 66) (aref a 0))) => 2, which suggests on at least that implementation numbers are "otherwise accessible" by means of constant folding :p 2021-03-18T22:15:15Z |3b|: (if they aren't foldable constants, it returns NIL) 2021-03-18T22:15:28Z Bike: eq returns 2? 2021-03-18T22:15:33Z |3b|: T 2021-03-18T22:15:39Z |3b|: did i mention i can't type? :/ 2021-03-18T22:15:40Z Bike: oh yeah ok. 2021-03-18T22:15:52Z |3b|: it at least starts with the right letter? 2021-03-18T22:16:32Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-18T22:18:27Z |3b|: so i guess the consensus is that the spec doesn't say, and it is reasonable to assume that it isn't safe to return bignums from a dx container. does it also seem reasonable to say it should be safe to return values from a specialized array? 2021-03-18T22:19:02Z |3b|: (do any implementations have upgraded element types that are still boxed in the array?) 2021-03-18T22:19:28Z Bike: probably not 2021-03-18T22:19:33Z Bike: like why bother at that point 2021-03-18T22:20:06Z |3b|: well, they might not have immediate values for any types, or some subset of the requires specializations 2021-03-18T22:20:19Z jasom: |3b|: sorry had to go afk; like I said two separately constructed bignums are either interned (safe) or distinct (safe), but a single bignum constructed with the container object is not safe 2021-03-18T22:20:55Z Bike: also my reading is rather that it's unsafe for any value that was part of the value assigned to the variable to escape, so (let ((L (list (expt 2 66)))) (car L)) is unsafe but (let ((L (list nil))) (setf (car L) (expt 2 66))) is ok 2021-03-18T22:21:09Z OlCe` joined #lisp 2021-03-18T22:21:15Z Bike: and practically speaking i don't think any implementations actually do anything with dynamic-extent declarations except for the initial binding 2021-03-18T22:21:22Z Bike: if i'm wrong i would like to hear about it 2021-03-18T22:22:05Z Nilby: Experiments seem to indicate it's okay to return contents of a dynamic-extent array. 2021-03-18T22:22:29Z Nilby: but don't every return the array 2021-03-18T22:22:31Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-18T22:22:49Z jasom: Nilby: I bet most implementations don't recurse into boxed items in the array for doing dynamic-extent, but they *are* allowed to by the spec. 2021-03-18T22:22:56Z |3b|: jasom: does the spec say that though? 2021-03-18T22:22:56Z |3b|: or does it just not say, and that's what most implementations do 2021-03-18T22:22:56Z |3b|: and as shown by above example, "Separately constructed" is ambiguous 2021-03-18T22:23:10Z Bike: sbcl is actually pretty specific about what it does 2021-03-18T22:23:11Z andreyorst_ joined #lisp 2021-03-18T22:23:30Z Bike: it gives the example (let* ((a (list 1 2 3)) (b (cons a a))) (declare (dynamic-extent b)) ...) and says that a is also stack-allocated 2021-03-18T22:23:34Z |3b|: and more concerned about values stored (only) in the container within the DX scope 2021-03-18T22:23:40Z jasom: |3b|: (progn (expt 2 66) (expt 2 66)) <- two separately constructed bignums 2021-03-18T22:23:43Z |3b|: than ones constructed with the container 2021-03-18T22:23:56Z Bike: i don't think the spec definition has anything about construction at all 2021-03-18T22:24:08Z jasom: Bike: they don't, but it is implicit 2021-03-18T22:24:13Z Bike: i don't think so 2021-03-18T22:24:14Z |3b|: jasom: unless the compiler folds them to 1, which sbcl does 2021-03-18T22:24:30Z Bike: i think it's about values that are stored in the variable 2021-03-18T22:24:41Z jasom: (eq (expt 2 66) (expt 2 66) <-- if this returns T then the objects are interned, if it returns nil then they are distinct 2021-03-18T22:25:19Z Bike: |3b|: sbcl's manual also doesn't say it ever stack allocates bignums in what looks like an exhaustive list, if you don't mind being mildly sbcl specific 2021-03-18T22:25:26Z jasom: And an object that is distinct from one declared dynamic extent is safe, as is an object that is interned 2021-03-18T22:25:38Z |3b|: ok, so "interned" in your definition includes "constant folding", and doesn't imply it will always be interned? 2021-03-18T22:26:11Z jasom: |3b|: right. If it's constant folded, then it's no longer otherwise unreachable. 2021-03-18T22:26:12Z |3b|: there is no way to access the thing into which it was "interned" in that case, since it happened at compile time 2021-03-18T22:26:28Z |3b|: even if the other use is not accessible after the DX scope? 2021-03-18T22:26:36Z jasom: |3b|: iyup 2021-03-18T22:26:52Z solrize: should this throw an error if i set a non-string key? it seems to let me. (setf ff (make-hash-table :key-type 'simple-base-string :test #'equal)) 2021-03-18T22:26:54Z jasom: |3b|: because it's reachable in some manner other than a way declared dynamic-extent 2021-03-18T22:27:17Z Bike: solrize: where did :key-type come from? that's not standard 2021-03-18T22:27:19Z jasom: |3b|: of course if its other use is not accessible after the DX scope, then it can be stack allocated because all uses are determined to be DX (by declaration and by proof) 2021-03-18T22:27:20Z |3b|: so i can file a bug if sbcl both constant folds and flushes a value, and dx allocates another use of the same value? 2021-03-18T22:27:33Z |3b|: jasom: reachable /after leaving the scope of dx/? 2021-03-18T22:28:25Z jasom: I would say (let ((x (some-form-that-gets-constant-folded))) (declare (dynamic-extent x)) (some-form-that-gets-constant-folded)) <-- that must work. 2021-03-18T22:29:14Z jasom: Compare (let ((x (some-form-that-gets-constant-folded))) (declare (dynamic-extent x)) (some-form-that-gets-constant-folded) x) <-- this does not need to wkr. 2021-03-18T22:29:28Z |3b|: but it was "interned" by your definition 2021-03-18T22:29:29Z solrize: Bike, hmm it's in the help message from sbcl 2021-03-18T22:29:44Z solrize: ok i will leave it otu 2021-03-18T22:29:45Z solrize: out 2021-03-18T22:30:06Z Bike: solrize: i just tried (make-hash-table :key-type 'simple-base-string) in my sbcl and got an error that the keyword is unrecognized. 2021-03-18T22:30:09Z Bike: is this new or old or something... 2021-03-18T22:30:11Z |3b|: and right, the first is obviously required, and whether the 2nd is required or not is what i was trying to determine 2021-03-18T22:30:21Z Bike: anyway, it's probably more like a declaration than anything 2021-03-18T22:30:32Z Bike: so if you put in a non-string you'll just get undefined behavior, rather than an error 2021-03-18T22:31:02Z solrize: interesting, maybe different version. ok i should try to follow hyperspec rather than just doing what sbcl says 2021-03-18T22:31:04Z solrize: thanks 2021-03-18T22:31:18Z |3b|: jasom: but it seems like we couldn't find anything in the spec saying whether the 2nd is required or not, so reasonable to assume it is not 2021-03-18T22:32:27Z |3b|: jasom: would you say it is reasonable to expect it to be safe to return (otherwise inaccessible) values from a dx allocated specialized array? (not required to work by spec, but reasonable from a "quality of implementation" perspective and/or "it would be silly to behave otherwise") 2021-03-18T22:33:06Z _death: solrize: you can have a (setf get-the-value) function that checks that the key is STRING before calling (setf gethash) 2021-03-18T22:33:29Z solrize: _death, yeah i don't actually need the runtime checking, i just thought it might happen automatically 2021-03-18T22:34:02Z solrize: is there a simple way to split a string like "foo bar baz" into separate words? i'm trying to do a word frequency exercise 2021-03-18T22:34:20Z jasom: |3b|: I could see an implementation unboxing a small array on the stack if it is declared DX 2021-03-18T22:34:59Z jasom: |3b|: but I think it's currently safe to assume it does not. And it's also going to be safe for an array specialized on an unboxed type, since those will be returned by value 2021-03-18T22:35:01Z |3b|: question is more whether any specialized array could contain boxed values 2021-03-18T22:35:47Z _death: solrize: there is a split-sequence library.. or you can do it yourself with position and subseq 2021-03-18T22:35:52Z jasom: |3b|: there are very few specialized arrays that are guaranteed to exist 2021-03-18T22:35:56Z solrize: _death ok thanks 2021-03-18T22:36:12Z |3b|: (or whether any are silly enough to pass pointers to values inside a specialized array instead of passing it as an immediate or boxing it as needed) 2021-03-18T22:36:50Z |3b|: right, which is why i would consider it silly to add a specialized array type and then store boxed values in that type 2021-03-18T22:37:04Z |3b|: (silly for an implementation to do so) 2021-03-18T22:38:00Z |3b|: so if i dx allocate an array specialized on a type for which u-a-e-t is not T, it would be reasonable (if not required by spec) to assume i can safely return the values in that array from the dx scope 2021-03-18T22:38:38Z hiroaki quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-18T22:39:44Z |3b| is trying to figure out a way to determine which types of arrays are safe to DX allocate for temp variables, without manually whitelisting combinations of types and implementations 2021-03-18T22:39:51Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-03-18T22:40:06Z Helmholtz joined #lisp 2021-03-18T22:40:18Z _death: solrize: there's also sb-unicode:words or library montezuma is your requirements are more complex.. 2021-03-18T22:41:51Z Krystof quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-18T22:48:02Z solrize: _death thanks 2021-03-18T22:52:49Z Krystof joined #lisp 2021-03-18T22:55:03Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-18T22:55:29Z |3b|: hmm, now i wonder if it is possible to "construct" a number with the same value as another that is guaranteed to not be the same object 2021-03-18T22:56:26Z |3b|: if i have an otherwise inaccessible list in a DX container, i can make a copy of it, similarly for gensyms (since it isn't accessible, whoever sees it later can't distinguish the copy from the original) 2021-03-18T22:56:38Z |3b|: but i can't (make-integer some-bignum) 2021-03-18T22:57:04Z Bike: there aren't any operators that guarantee fresh numbers, are there 2021-03-18T22:57:19Z |3b|: right 2021-03-18T22:57:37Z Nilby: You can parse-integer, but even that's not guaranteed not to be the same. 2021-03-18T22:57:52Z |3b|: only thing i can thing of guaranteed to be safe is to return (1+ some-bignum) and then use 1- outside the scope 2021-03-18T22:57:57Z |3b|: *think 2021-03-18T22:58:13Z |3b|: i guess printing to string and then parsing it would also be safe 2021-03-18T22:58:30Z Krystof: brb implementing hash-consing of bignums 2021-03-18T22:59:02Z |3b|: i suppose the other way to make it safe would be to make it otherwise accessible, so if i have a binding outside the DX i can safely store it into that inside the dx? 2021-03-18T22:59:06Z Nilby: But what will this do? (let ((x (1+ most-positive-fixnum))) (1- x)) 2021-03-18T23:00:41Z Nilby: or rather with the 1- out of a dx'd let 2021-03-18T23:01:01Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-18T23:01:26Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-18T23:01:47Z Nilby: I think one would like to give the compiler leeway to optimize that 2021-03-18T23:01:58Z _death: Krystof: how about a bignum trie 2021-03-18T23:02:06Z |3b|: ah, i guess storing it in an enclosing variable isn't enough 2021-03-18T23:02:19Z |3b|: that's the same as returning it 2021-03-18T23:02:57Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-18T23:03:16Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-18T23:03:44Z contrapunctus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-18T23:03:57Z |3b|: i guess for my use it is enough to just make sure i never use the initial values in the array, which is probably an acceptable limitation 2021-03-18T23:04:15Z pranavats quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-18T23:05:05Z Nilby: I'm pretty sure "Universal Lisp" stores at least prime bignums in something like a p-adic tree. 2021-03-18T23:05:17Z Nilby: non-prime that is 2021-03-18T23:07:12Z DHARMAKAYA quit (Quit: Turning off a portion of this simulation.) 2021-03-18T23:10:32Z jonatack_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-18T23:10:45Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-18T23:11:52Z mathrick_ joined #lisp 2021-03-18T23:11:52Z aartaka_d quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-18T23:12:45Z mathrick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-18T23:14:32Z motersen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-18T23:19:29Z Helmholtz quit (Quit: Helmholtz) 2021-03-18T23:27:24Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-18T23:27:37Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-18T23:27:37Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-18T23:28:26Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-18T23:29:20Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-18T23:29:22Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-18T23:31:04Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-18T23:36:40Z aindilis` joined #lisp 2021-03-18T23:38:56Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-18T23:39:58Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-03-18T23:40:39Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-18T23:42:18Z aindilis` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-18T23:52:59Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-18T23:58:05Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-19T00:02:22Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-19T00:04:01Z cosimone quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-19T00:06:50Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-19T00:10:19Z kevingal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-19T00:21:56Z aindilis joined #lisp 2021-03-19T00:22:55Z guav joined #lisp 2021-03-19T00:27:10Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-19T00:28:34Z guav: hello 2021-03-19T00:28:43Z Xach: hi guav 2021-03-19T00:29:28Z guav: Hi Xach :) man this channel seems to be quite the popular spot 2021-03-19T00:30:36Z Xach: guav: it gets a little quiet when the europeans are asleep 2021-03-19T00:30:39Z dhil quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-19T00:30:55Z Xach: and the UKers and scandanavians 2021-03-19T00:31:47Z guav: Haha no I meant that sincerely, this has like 10x more connected people than the emacs channels i visited, but yeah does seem to be a little quiet rn 2021-03-19T00:36:41Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-19T00:44:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: guav: lots of lurkers here 2021-03-19T00:45:36Z recalloc joined #lisp 2021-03-19T00:47:12Z elflng quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-19T00:47:55Z corpix_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-19T00:48:09Z corpix joined #lisp 2021-03-19T00:52:22Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-03-19T00:52:38Z White_Flame: it's the questions that get conversations flowing, not just presence of people 2021-03-19T00:52:45Z _jrjsmrtn joined #lisp 2021-03-19T00:52:47Z DHARMAKAYA joined #lisp 2021-03-19T00:54:12Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-19T01:04:31Z Helmholtz joined #lisp 2021-03-19T01:09:55Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-19T01:11:11Z wxie joined #lisp 2021-03-19T01:14:47Z dbotton: Xach quicklisp builds all the projects the whole month multiple times? 2021-03-19T01:23:28Z Xach: dbotton: at least once per day 2021-03-19T01:24:08Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-19T01:24:14Z dbotton: Very nice :) So my code base checked all the time 2021-03-19T01:24:16Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-19T01:24:37Z dbotton: I guess those errors showed from a new sbcl 2021-03-19T01:25:00Z Xach: yeah 2021-03-19T01:25:25Z Xach: there are rss feeds too 2021-03-19T01:27:32Z dbotton: I'll try and look in to after get to 1.0 2021-03-19T01:27:59Z dbotton: Been super busy work wise but still moving along 2021-03-19T01:28:15Z dbotton: Then will look more, thanks! 2021-03-19T01:29:38Z sxmx quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-19T01:35:32Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-03-19T01:36:03Z elflng joined #lisp 2021-03-19T01:38:05Z Helmholtz quit (Quit: Helmholtz) 2021-03-19T01:38:57Z MrtnDk[m] < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/wKrWlFbxnXIbNvdMIwNCdoSQ/message.txt > 2021-03-19T01:39:16Z MrtnDk[m] < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/puBvSrUZIzgJVxeCniPDCffe/message.txt > 2021-03-19T01:47:26Z DHARMAKAYA quit (Quit: Turning off a portion of this simulation.) 2021-03-19T01:52:07Z sxmx joined #lisp 2021-03-19T01:53:29Z guav quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-19T01:56:57Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-19T01:59:56Z leb joined #lisp 2021-03-19T02:00:14Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-19T02:01:06Z pigeon666 joined #lisp 2021-03-19T02:01:10Z pigeon666: hey can someone help me? 2021-03-19T02:01:10Z stylewarning: is there an implementation of something like LAMBDA-LIST-CONGRUENT-P? 2021-03-19T02:01:15Z pigeon666: i dont know why this is throwing errors: 2021-03-19T02:01:19Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-19T02:01:24Z pigeon666 quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-19T02:01:34Z Bike: stylewarning: like, outside of an implementation? 2021-03-19T02:01:44Z stylewarning: Bike: yeah, something portable 2021-03-19T02:02:26Z Bike: it's pretty simple... assuming you have a lambda list parser, so look for one of those 2021-03-19T02:02:34Z Bike: https://github.com/s-expressionists/Concrete-Syntax-Tree there's one in CST, and a few other ones around i think 2021-03-19T02:04:55Z pigeon666 joined #lisp 2021-03-19T02:05:11Z pigeon666: can someone help me figure out why my scheme program is throwing an error for my first paren? 2021-03-19T02:05:59Z stylewarning: Bike: a lambda list parser implementer ought to implement this function too (: 2021-03-19T02:06:03Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-03-19T02:13:40Z Sheilong quit 2021-03-19T02:26:40Z jxy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-19T02:26:52Z elusive joined #lisp 2021-03-19T02:26:58Z jxy joined #lisp 2021-03-19T02:28:25Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-19T02:32:31Z sxmx quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-03-19T02:33:35Z MrtnDk[m] < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/LLVXdYkxCottzxbvmxwcMLQN/message.txt > 2021-03-19T02:34:06Z MrtnDk[m]: * OK, it didn't make it 2021-03-19T02:34:06Z MrtnDk[m]: past "Hello " yet ... 2021-03-19T02:34:55Z sxmx joined #lisp 2021-03-19T02:36:54Z attila_lendvai_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-19T02:39:09Z pigeon666 quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-19T02:40:23Z MrtnDk[m] < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/wpKKUuAZAroXNSHSEjagxsSk/message.txt > 2021-03-19T02:41:14Z semz joined #lisp 2021-03-19T02:42:17Z MrtnDk[m] < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/jXQgDqXfcjIcGeXPcWFUJhLO/message.txt > 2021-03-19T02:42:27Z matryoshka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-19T02:43:46Z matryoshka joined #lisp 2021-03-19T02:46:32Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-19T02:47:40Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-19T02:54:22Z gitgoood joined #lisp 2021-03-19T02:56:33Z hendursaga quit (Quit: hendursaga) 2021-03-19T02:57:25Z gitgood quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-19T02:57:34Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-03-19T02:58:00Z stylewarning: is there a recommended best practice for catching no applicable method errors? 2021-03-19T02:59:46Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-03-19T03:03:28Z Nilby: stylewarning: Most library-like things I've written just let them go, but in say an image loading library, it could try load image format code. In a program with a UI, and something like a view-thing method I've popped up dialog box, and had an option to go to the debugger. 2021-03-19T03:04:08Z Nilby: Are you catching for a specific purpose? 2021-03-19T03:06:04Z Nilby: As a library user, I like to know when it happens, but sometimes, if it's say a method that one should have provided, you could wrap it with an explanitory error, like "you forgot to provide a display method" or something? 2021-03-19T03:06:50Z stylewarning: Nilby: I'm implementing a concept of "backends" or "plugins", and one such might be implemented by a generic function. 2021-03-19T03:07:05Z Bike: what kind of best practice do you mean 2021-03-19T03:07:05Z stylewarning: and if there's no method, I want to handle the condition and keep moving 2021-03-19T03:08:13Z Nilby: Sound like just signaling a warning and continuing might be fine. 2021-03-19T03:08:14Z Bike: the standard doesn't specify a condition type, so you probably need to specialize no-applicable-method to signal something you can use 2021-03-19T03:08:45Z josh`: There is the function http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_no_app.htm#no-applicable-method 2021-03-19T03:08:49Z josh`: method* 2021-03-19T03:09:33Z josh` quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 26.1) 2021-03-19T03:10:10Z Nilby: or maybe like a missing-plugin condition that would by default be handled 2021-03-19T03:11:55Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2021-03-19T03:12:09Z MrtnDk[m]: Oh, is this channel mostly IRC? 2021-03-19T03:12:20Z Bike: it's entirely irc. 2021-03-19T03:12:33Z stylewarning: Nilby: I was hoping to not have control over the generic functions themselves 2021-03-19T03:13:03Z moon-child: Bike: I think that this channel is bridged to a matrix channel, and MrtnDk[m] is asking how manay people are on the matrix side. Maybe? 2021-03-19T03:13:04Z MrtnDk[m]: Bike I'm not currently on IRC. You're probably talking to my puppet. 2021-03-19T03:13:39Z Bike: okay, it's entirely irc and also people have unexplained bridge bots. 2021-03-19T03:13:49Z Bike: anyway, what are you trying to do with your code here? 2021-03-19T03:14:24Z MrtnDk[m]: Bike I'm guessing it rendered absolutely terrible on the IRC side? 2021-03-19T03:14:42Z Bike: yes, you've been sending links to one-off text files. 2021-03-19T03:14:54Z MrtnDk[m]: Man, sorry 2021-03-19T03:15:07Z MrtnDk[m]: It looks ok here ... but .. 2021-03-19T03:15:34Z Bike: i really do want to know what you're going for with this code though. do you expect short-loop to exit? 2021-03-19T03:15:47Z MrtnDk[m]: It was just some code for fun. I'm kinda noob with lisp. 2021-03-19T03:16:29Z Bike: mm, that's fine. we also have... i think #clschool? for learning 2021-03-19T03:16:32Z Bike: questions are ok here tho 2021-03-19T03:16:40Z MrtnDk[m]: Bike cool 2021-03-19T03:16:43Z elusive quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-19T03:17:07Z MrtnDk[m]: What is my puppets nickname btw? 2021-03-19T03:17:42Z MrtnDk[m]: Eg. what do you see me as? 2021-03-19T03:17:56Z Nilby: stylewarning: I think most libraries I've seen that do generic backend things, just let the condition go, unless it's called from a frontend where you can catch it. It seems like mostly having a no-op generic fallback, or some other sensible fallback can workd. 2021-03-19T03:18:29Z MrtnDk[m]: Bike You're "@freenode_Bike:matrix.org" on the matrix side. 2021-03-19T03:18:42Z Nilby: Since if it's required, than it should be an error if it's not there, and if it's not required, a no-op is probably fine. 2021-03-19T03:18:51Z stylewarning: maybe it's a bad idea to catch such a thing anyway, because the failure of (F) might not be because F has no methods 2021-03-19T03:19:02Z Bike: MrtnDk[m]: MrtnDk[m] 2021-03-19T03:19:36Z Nilby: stylewarning: right, especially if it fails for other mistyped parameter 2021-03-19T03:20:01Z MrtnDk[m]: Bike Ah, that doesn't go through. The bot changes it into a matrix link. Thanks though. 2021-03-19T03:20:17Z moon-child: M r t n D k [ m ] 2021-03-19T03:20:47Z stylewarning: How is NO-APPLICABLE-METHOD intended to be specialized? EQL on the generic function name? 2021-03-19T03:20:50Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-19T03:21:05Z Bike: yeah, or if you have a custom generic function class of course. 2021-03-19T03:21:14Z stylewarning: cool 2021-03-19T03:21:27Z Alloc joined #lisp 2021-03-19T03:21:36Z MrtnDk[m]: moon-child That worked, thanks. MrtnDk[m], right? 2021-03-19T03:21:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs NO-APPLICABLE-METHOD 2021-03-19T03:21:42Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_no_app.htm 2021-03-19T03:22:10Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-19T03:22:11Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-19T03:22:12Z Bike: you could also define a general method (specialized on T) which does whatever 2021-03-19T03:22:42Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-19T03:23:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: I assumed n-a-m was called with the generic function instance 2021-03-19T03:23:57Z Bike: i mean a general method on your generic function. 2021-03-19T03:24:25Z Nilby: the generic function is a class too 2021-03-19T03:25:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: All I mean is that I thought you'd specialize it like (generic-function (eql #'foo)) 2021-03-19T03:25:29Z Nilby: I think I've actually seen it both ways, eql #'func and just plain gf-type 2021-03-19T03:25:33Z Bike: that's how you'd specify not-applicable-method, yes 2021-03-19T03:25:43Z Bike: i'm talking about a different possible solution that doesn't involve n-a-m 2021-03-19T03:25:52Z Bike: how you'd specialize not-applicable-method* 2021-03-19T03:26:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: Nilby: if you did the plain gf-type, you'd be defining a default for every generic function of that type 2021-03-19T03:26:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: Which would be interesting... 2021-03-19T03:26:16Z Bike: also make your code nonconforming. 2021-03-19T03:28:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: (gf (eql 'foo)) doesn't seem standard 2021-03-19T03:29:04Z Bike: you'd need to do (eql #'foo) for sure 2021-03-19T03:30:09Z akoana left #lisp 2021-03-19T03:30:48Z prxq_ joined #lisp 2021-03-19T03:31:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: Does that run into issues with externalizable objects? 2021-03-19T03:31:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: I feel like I've had load issues doing that 2021-03-19T03:31:34Z Bike: it doesn't need to actually externalize the function for that 2021-03-19T03:31:48Z Nilby: (eql #'foo) works fine 2021-03-19T03:34:13Z mrchampion quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-19T03:34:19Z sm2n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-19T03:34:27Z moon-child: why isn't (=) valid? 2021-03-19T03:34:49Z prxq quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-19T03:35:22Z Alloc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-19T03:35:30Z sm2n joined #lisp 2021-03-19T03:35:34Z Bike: hm, dunno. 2021-03-19T03:35:48Z moon-child: should be the same as (and), I think 2021-03-19T03:37:47Z Nilby: qtools has examples of call n-a-m with (eql #'func) 2021-03-19T03:38:14Z MrtnDk[m]: moon-child Requires an argument. (= 1) works. 2021-03-19T03:41:54Z Nilby: (= 0) Is it any wonder emoticons were invented by lispers 2021-03-19T03:42:21Z moon-child: MrtnDk[m]: yes, but the question is why. The function is variadic: (= 1 1 1) works. If we think of the definition as 'return T if, for all parameters x and y, x is mathematically equal to y; otherwise NIL', then clearly it should return T when provided with no parameters as false antecedent 2021-03-19T03:42:34Z moon-child: and you can construct a similar (even stronger, maybe) argument in terms of existence 2021-03-19T03:43:32Z Alloc joined #lisp 2021-03-19T03:43:39Z Alloc quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-19T03:44:40Z Nilby: perhaps it's because (=) has no use, even in reduce, and (= o) is like a shorter way to write (numberp o) as well as being an emoticon 2021-03-19T03:45:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: Doesn't that signal? 2021-03-19T03:45:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: (= "foo") 2021-03-19T03:45:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah: ; Evaluation aborted on #. 2021-03-19T03:45:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs = 2021-03-19T03:45:50Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_eq_sle.htm 2021-03-19T03:46:43Z moon-child: Nilby: does (=) have any less use than (and)? = at least has the excuse that it's a function, and so can be applied (to a list of potentially arbitrary length) 2021-03-19T03:47:38Z Nilby: Yes. (and) is a functional way to write T 2021-03-19T03:48:38Z Nilby: And has an obvious return value. equality of nothing doesn't seem well defined 2021-03-19T03:48:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: (and) macroexpands to t 2021-03-19T03:49:27Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-19T03:49:52Z Nilby: It's also has lovely symmetry with (or) 2021-03-19T03:50:59Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-19T03:52:48Z MrtnDk[m]: Nilby (or (or) (and nil)) ;; has the same effect, I guess. 2021-03-19T03:53:20Z kaiwulf quit (Quit: KVIrc 5.0.0 Aria http://www.kvirc.net/) 2021-03-19T03:54:31Z Bike: (and) is true because it's an empty product. equality is basically pairwise, so the equivalent would be testing equality of one object against a set of no objects, like (= x), which is indeed true 2021-03-19T03:54:35Z Bike: if i had to justify it 2021-03-19T03:54:36Z Nilby: It also answer's the profound questions: Is nothing true? => NIL, Is anything true? => T 2021-03-19T03:55:22Z Nilby: If nothing was true, then that would be something that was true. 2021-03-19T03:58:58Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-19T03:59:36Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-19T03:59:57Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-19T04:01:28Z Alfr quit (Killed (barjavel.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))) 2021-03-19T04:01:32Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-03-19T04:03:29Z MrtnDk[m]: I guess = compares all arguments to see if they're equal. No arguments can't be equal, obviously. However, "and" just returns "t", unless one of its operands are false. 2021-03-19T04:04:36Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-19T04:05:03Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-19T04:06:39Z Josh_2: no 2021-03-19T04:07:27Z Josh_2: it evaluates to the first non nil argument 2021-03-19T04:07:49Z Josh_2: well 2021-03-19T04:07:53Z Josh_2: not that either :P 2021-03-19T04:08:37Z Josh_2: it will check all arguments arent basically, but it doesn't return t, but the last non nil, which could be t xD 2021-03-19T04:08:46Z Josh_2: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/m_and.htm 2021-03-19T04:10:09Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2021-03-19T04:11:33Z Nilby: Good morning beach! 2021-03-19T04:19:06Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-19T04:29:19Z skapate joined #lisp 2021-03-19T04:31:27Z beach: MrtnDk[m]: As the Common Lisp HyperSpec says, "If all forms but the last evaluate to true values, AND returns the results produced by evaluating the last form." 2021-03-19T04:31:33Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-19T04:31:39Z beach: MrtnDk[m]: So AND does not necessarily return T. 2021-03-19T04:32:10Z Nilby: I wonder how many other things like SB-IMPL:%STUFF-HASH-TABLE there are that I don't know about. 2021-03-19T04:32:11Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-19T04:34:07Z Nilby: And that *print-readably* doens't mean readably on any other implementation. 2021-03-19T04:37:18Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-19T04:41:46Z ex_nihilo joined #lisp 2021-03-19T04:44:23Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-19T04:46:08Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-19T04:47:55Z Bike quit (Quit: slp) 2021-03-19T04:49:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: Nilby: *print-readably* doesn't necessarily mean readably on the same implementation 2021-03-19T04:49:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: Unless you've loaded the correct readers 2021-03-19T04:50:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: e.g. local time has a timestamp syntax like @xxxx-yy-zz... and read-macros for that 2021-03-19T04:50:29Z beach: Another argument in favor of stamping out implementation-specific readers. :) 2021-03-19T04:50:49Z Nilby: My trust in *print-readably* is shattered :( 2021-03-19T04:50:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: beach: you still need to have initialized the readtable correctly 2021-03-19T04:51:02Z beach: Sure. 2021-03-19T04:51:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: unless you mean "stamping out read macros" 2021-03-19T04:51:19Z beach: I did not mean that. 2021-03-19T04:51:43Z beach: It was a lame attempt to push for Eclector. 2021-03-19T04:52:10Z Nilby is already using Eclector 2021-03-19T04:52:19Z beach: YAY!! 2021-03-19T04:52:25Z Nilby: But not for everything 2021-03-19T04:52:27Z Nilby: yet 2021-03-19T05:00:23Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-19T05:09:49Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-19T05:11:11Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-03-19T05:16:00Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-19T05:18:11Z Nilby: beach: I'm very grateful for Eclector. Thanks! Otherwise I'd have to maintain implementation forks, or write my own reader. 2021-03-19T05:19:14Z beach: Oh, thank scymtym. He made it what it is. I merely wanted an implementation-independent reader, but it was very embryonic when scymtym took over. 2021-03-19T05:19:43Z Nilby: Many thanks to scymtym. 2021-03-19T05:24:05Z sauvin joined #lisp 2021-03-19T05:26:06Z samebchase-5 is now known as samebchase- 2021-03-19T05:27:31Z sm2n_ joined #lisp 2021-03-19T05:28:10Z sm2n quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-19T05:31:11Z wxie joined #lisp 2021-03-19T05:40:14Z marusich quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-19T05:40:38Z phossil joined #lisp 2021-03-19T05:45:29Z phossil quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2021-03-19T05:59:57Z matryoshka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-19T06:00:36Z matryoshka joined #lisp 2021-03-19T06:03:32Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-03-19T06:12:28Z leb quit 2021-03-19T06:15:23Z leb joined #lisp 2021-03-19T06:16:43Z asarch joined #lisp 2021-03-19T06:18:07Z asarch: If I have: (defclass foo () ...) and then (defclass bar (foo) ...) can I create a dynamically re-sizable array of the type foo to store bars? 2021-03-19T06:18:43Z asarch: Or do I have to set :element-type 'bar explicitly? 2021-03-19T06:19:36Z beach: asarch: Objects that are instances of standard classes like that won't have any specialized array associated with them, so you are going to get an array of T either way. 2021-03-19T06:21:00Z beach: asarch: But, every object of type BAR is also an object of type FOO, so anywhere an object of type FOO is required, you can supply an object of type BAR. 2021-03-19T06:22:53Z asarch: How would you set the :initial-element argument? 2021-03-19T06:23:01Z asarch: Just T? 2021-03-19T06:23:21Z beach: You can set it to anything you want, since every Common Lisp object is an instance of the class T. 2021-03-19T06:23:36Z asarch: :adjustable t :initial-element nil :element-type 'T 2021-03-19T06:23:38Z beach: When I said T, I don't mean an object. I mean the class T. 2021-03-19T06:24:07Z beach: You can certainly do that, but you are working too hard. 2021-03-19T06:24:25Z beach: clhs make-array 2021-03-19T06:24:31Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_ar.htm 2021-03-19T06:24:46Z leb quit 2021-03-19T06:24:56Z asarch: I see 2021-03-19T06:24:58Z asarch: Thank you! 2021-03-19T06:25:03Z asarch: Thank you very much! :-) 2021-03-19T06:25:03Z beach: asarch: See the element-type defaults to T. 2021-03-19T06:25:43Z beach: asarch: And you can supply an initial element if you like, but the implementation will supply one for you if you don't. 2021-03-19T06:26:01Z beach: And since every object is of type T, the implementation can supply anything and it will work. 2021-03-19T06:26:28Z asarch: Thank you! 2021-03-19T06:26:35Z asarch: Thank you very much! 2021-03-19T06:26:38Z beach: asarch: Specialized arrays are about optimizing representation where possible. So an array of characters may be represented in some optimized way depending on how the implementation represents characters. 2021-03-19T06:27:24Z beach: asarch: But there is no optimization possible for standard objects, so you are always going to get an array with an element type of T. 2021-03-19T06:28:31Z beach: asarch: As I recall, an implementation is allowed to store and check the real type that you gave, independently of the representation. But I don't think implementations do that in general. 2021-03-19T06:29:18Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-19T06:29:24Z asarch: I thought :element-type was for each type of the class inherited from foo 2021-03-19T06:29:30Z beach: For example, in SBCL, if you do (make-array 10 :element-type 'symbol) it will contain an initial element of 0. 2021-03-19T06:29:55Z asarch: (defclass foo () ...) (defclass bar (foo) ...) (defclass spam (foo) ...) (defclass baz (foo) ...) 2021-03-19T06:30:38Z asarch: And then: :element-type 'bar, :element-type 'spam, :element-type 'baz 2021-03-19T06:31:17Z asarch: I could even do :element-type 'string and still work, right?! 2021-03-19T06:31:58Z beach: Yes, I just did (defparameter *foo* (make-array 10 :element-type 'symbol)) and then (setf (aref *foo* 3) (find-package "CL")). 2021-03-19T06:32:18Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-03-19T06:32:27Z beach: ... using SBCL. 2021-03-19T06:33:33Z asarch: That's great, isn't it?! 2021-03-19T06:33:46Z beach: asarch: :element-type is used when you want a specialized array, like an array of bits or characters or DOUBLE-FLOATs. 2021-03-19T06:34:00Z beach: It is not going to buy you anything for standard classes. 2021-03-19T06:34:18Z beach: I am not saying it is great. I am explaining what is happening. 2021-03-19T06:34:19Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-19T06:34:54Z beach: asarch: Why are you so focused on element types? 2021-03-19T06:35:23Z beach: asarch: Common Lisp is a dynamically typed language. You don't have to state the type of everything you do. 2021-03-19T06:35:40Z asarch: Well, I need a way to create HTML forms dynamically since it is quite a headache to modify thousands of template files 2021-03-19T06:36:42Z beach: OK, you just lost me when you said HTML. So I wish you good luck. Not that I understand how specifying an element type that is a standard class is going to do any good for HTML. 2021-03-19T06:37:19Z asarch: So, for my initial experiment, I: (defclass html-element () ...) and then (defclass input-text (html-element) ...) so I could add that HTML element to the form object: (let ((my-form (make-instance 'form))) (add-element my-form (make-instance 'input-text)) 2021-03-19T06:37:47Z asarch: The elements are stored in a dynamically-sized array in the form object named elements 2021-03-19T06:37:52Z Nilby: There was a discussion earliar about how can you tell when an array element will survive dynamic extent, i.e. when it's boxed or not. 2021-03-19T06:38:20Z White_Flame: the methods you call on the items you fetch from the array are what will concern themselves with the type; the array doesn't have to 2021-03-19T06:38:20Z asarch: Why don't you like anything related to web development beach? 2021-03-19T06:38:33Z beach: Because it is messy, and I am busy with other things. 2021-03-19T06:38:44Z asarch: I see 2021-03-19T06:39:21Z beach goes back to something he is willing to spend time on. 2021-03-19T06:39:53Z asarch: Well, later I could (render #P"templates/form.html" (list :form (render my-form))) which it converts everything in "
...
" 2021-03-19T06:40:37Z asarch: The 98% of the web development depends actually on the programming language you choose for the controller 2021-03-19T06:41:26Z asarch: The other 2%... well, click here, click that and voilá! 2021-03-19T06:43:45Z johannes joined #lisp 2021-03-19T06:44:56Z White_Flame: (loop for node across node-array (render-method node string-stream)) 2021-03-19T06:45:08Z White_Flame: between outputting "
" and "
" 2021-03-19T06:45:08Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-03-19T06:45:19Z White_Flame: still don't need any specialization on the array itself 2021-03-19T06:46:12Z asarch: Really? I thought since (render ...) and every HTML element is actually a string... well, you know 2021-03-19T06:46:18Z White_Flame: (also might need to add a DO before the render-method call to be proper, too) 2021-03-19T06:46:27Z White_Flame: you know what? 2021-03-19T06:46:39Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2021-03-19T06:46:58Z White_Flame: the object in the array is passed to the render generic function, which then is what finds the method appropriate for the real class 2021-03-19T06:47:24Z White_Flame: and none of that really has anything to do with the array. You could have them in a list or whatever 2021-03-19T06:47:36Z asarch: I was thinking in something a la Python's modules for form generation (WTForm, ToscaWidgets, Sprox, etc) 2021-03-19T06:47:36Z Jachy: asarch: Is there a particular reason you don't want to use any of the popular libraries for html generation / framework-style templates? 2021-03-19T06:47:48Z pranavats joined #lisp 2021-03-19T06:47:55Z asarch: Because I don't know any :'-( 2021-03-19T06:48:17Z Jachy: asarch: https://github.com/CodyReichert/awesome-cl#html-generators-and-templates ;) 2021-03-19T06:48:36Z asarch: Someone told me about... 2021-03-19T06:50:30Z asarch: Perl has HTML::FormHandler which is based in the Perl's MOP Moose 2021-03-19T06:51:54Z beach: asarch: You really should listen to White_Flame who is trying to teach you important things about how Common Lisp works. 2021-03-19T06:52:26Z kslt1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-19T06:52:48Z asarch: I know 2021-03-19T06:53:12Z beach: asarch: The Common Lisp language is dynamically typed. It means that the objects carry with them information about the type. 2021-03-19T06:53:26Z asarch: (defmethod render ((instance form)) (loop for element across (elements instance) do ...))) 2021-03-19T06:53:48Z White_Flame: where would the output of the render go? 2021-03-19T06:54:00Z White_Flame: that's why I had a stream as the 2nd parameter 2021-03-19T06:54:06Z White_Flame: that would be passed along to subrenders 2021-03-19T06:54:21Z White_Flame: or, you could define a special variable, but the parameter is often cleaner, if slightly more verbose 2021-03-19T06:54:45Z asarch: I would pass it to the templates file, using Caveman2: (render #P"templates/form.html" (list :form (render my-form))) 2021-03-19T06:55:16Z White_Flame: oh, you'd have it simply return a string? 2021-03-19T06:55:25Z White_Flame: that's not as easily composable as dealing with a stream 2021-03-19T06:55:26Z Nilby: asarch: I find plump and lquery are super easy to use for web stuff. 2021-03-19T06:55:33Z asarch: And, in the template fiel, form.html: {{ form.form }} 2021-03-19T06:55:55Z White_Flame: and lisp has with-output-to-string et al 2021-03-19T06:56:02Z Nilby: For example: (lquery:$ (initialize (drakma:http-request "https://news.ycombinator.com/")) "a.storylink" (text)) 2021-03-19T06:56:51Z Nilby: You could just read the web page, change what you want in lisp, and write it back out. 2021-03-19T06:57:23Z Nilby: plump and lquery also have good docs 2021-03-19T06:57:42Z White_Flame is definitely not knowledgeable on server-side HTML stuff 2021-03-19T06:57:58Z White_Flame: erm, s/stuff/frameworks & libraries/ 2021-03-19T06:58:31Z White_Flame: everything I do is effectively a websocket-based single page app 2021-03-19T06:58:44Z White_Flame: when it comes to web stuff 2021-03-19T06:58:45Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-19T06:59:02Z kslt1 joined #lisp 2021-03-19T06:59:57Z asarch: I also was thinking to write a REST API using Caveman2 and use EmberJS as the fronted 2021-03-19T07:00:03Z asarch: But that's JavaScript :-P 2021-03-19T07:02:41Z asarch: Following the KISS principle: (let ((my-form (make-instance 'form :action "/students/add" :method "POST"))) (add-element my-form (make-instance 'text-input :name "student-name")) (add-element (make-instance 'text-input :name "student-address"))) (render #P"templates/form.html" (list :form (render my-form)))) 2021-03-19T07:03:33Z White_Flame: that looks like something with a KISS implementation, and anti-KISS expectations from the user 2021-03-19T07:03:46Z asarch: I need to change the name of the function (render my-form) to (render-form my-form) to avoid confusions 2021-03-19T07:04:06Z White_Flame: but if it's just for somethign quick & dirty, it's fine 2021-03-19T07:04:28Z asarch: Yeah! Exactly! 2021-03-19T07:04:43Z White_Flame: why? render is a method, it can dispatch on form instances vs others 2021-03-19T07:05:25Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-19T07:05:29Z retropikzel quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-19T07:05:45Z Nilby: That style reminds me of CLOG. 2021-03-19T07:06:40Z Klopsch joined #lisp 2021-03-19T07:07:23Z asarch: That's great! 2021-03-19T07:07:43Z retropikzel joined #lisp 2021-03-19T07:09:06Z phantomics: asarch do you have code up anywhere? I've done quite a bit of CL web dev and I could comment on your approach if I see an example 2021-03-19T07:10:47Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2021-03-19T07:10:58Z marusich joined #lisp 2021-03-19T07:10:58Z asarch: Take a look: https://pastebin.com/VGw1qgE1 2021-03-19T07:11:05Z asarch: Do you know what a "Nuclear Code" is? 2021-03-19T07:11:29Z White_Flame: 000000 2021-03-19T07:11:42Z asarch: That controller consults the list of nuclear codes stored in the PostgreSQL cluster 2021-03-19T07:11:45Z asarch: Yeah! 2021-03-19T07:11:49Z asarch: That codes 2021-03-19T07:11:53Z johannes quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-19T07:11:56Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-19T07:12:15Z asarch: So you can visit each with a single click operation 2021-03-19T07:12:52Z phantomics: Ok, so this is for a web server as opposed to an HTML generator 2021-03-19T07:13:40Z asarch: Using RPC (Remote Procedure Calls), for every table in the clust, I need 9 controllers to list and do the CRUD operations of the codes 2021-03-19T07:13:49Z retropikzel quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-19T07:16:30Z asarch: This is how it is render: https://pasteboard.co/JTiIp0Z.png 2021-03-19T07:18:31Z beach gets the hives from thinking about remote procedure calls. 2021-03-19T07:19:56Z Nilby: remote call site optimization? 2021-03-19T07:20:20Z asarch: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remote_procedure_call 2021-03-19T07:20:29Z White_Flame: sounds KISS has long been kissed goodbye 2021-03-19T07:20:33Z White_Flame: *sounds like 2021-03-19T07:21:14Z asarch: The opposite to REST 2021-03-19T07:21:29Z asarch: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representational_state_transfer 2021-03-19T07:22:00Z phantomics: A different question: Is there anything inside a (let) form that can cause one of the locally-scoped variables to become unbound other than another (let) form inside it reassigning the variable at a smaller scope? 2021-03-19T07:22:17Z Nilby: Hey, it's almost to multi-CRUD, with just a little lisp code, seems legit 2021-03-19T07:22:30Z phantomics: For example (let ((abc something)) ... many forms deeper ... (lambda (x y) (+ abc x y))) 2021-03-19T07:22:42Z beach: phantomics: No, lexical variables can't be unbound. 2021-03-19T07:22:45Z phantomics: This gives an error and says abc is not defined 2021-03-19T07:23:17Z phantomics: beach: Strange, I'm running into this exact problem 2021-03-19T07:23:40Z White_Flame: are you sure it's not a nesting error, and the lambda is actually outside the let? 2021-03-19T07:23:41Z beach: Can you reduce your code to something with a reasonable size? 2021-03-19T07:24:23Z phantomics: I've reduced it as far as practical and the problem still occurs 2021-03-19T07:24:41Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-19T07:25:23Z beach: So either what White_Flame suggested, or someone declared it special and then made it have no value. I think White_Flame's explanation is the more likely one. 2021-03-19T07:25:52Z beach: phantomics: How about pasting the code? 2021-03-19T07:26:04Z White_Flame: it really helps to use something like paredit to keep your nesting & indentation sane, though it gets a lot of gettin gused to 2021-03-19T07:26:32Z beach: Even just indenting the code properly will make such a problem pretty obvious. 2021-03-19T07:27:44Z phantomics: beach: just did: https://dpaste.com/GRH6L5CGM 2021-03-19T07:27:59Z phantomics: The variable causing the problem is april-workspace-common::|s| 2021-03-19T07:28:08Z surabax joined #lisp 2021-03-19T07:29:08Z phantomics: Its scope is defined in the let form on line 11, it's assigned on line 12 and then it's invoked on line 29 or 44 2021-03-19T07:30:16Z White_Flame: are any of these macros whihc quote the literal symbol and shove them somewhere outside this lexical scope to be evaluated? 2021-03-19T07:30:40Z phantomics: None of the macros transfer code outside of the (let) form 2021-03-19T07:30:56Z Nilby: unicode de-normalization 2021-03-19T07:31:06Z White_Flame: eg, `(push ,lambda-body-source stuff-to-be-evaluated-later) 2021-03-19T07:31:17Z White_Flame: or quoted etc 2021-03-19T07:33:17Z phantomics: There's nothing that could move the symbol outside of the (let) and cause it to be evaluated there 2021-03-19T07:33:19Z beach: I don't see any obvious problem, but then, as White_Flame points out, one would have to know what every macro does in order to figure it out. 2021-03-19T07:34:05Z White_Flame: re unicode issues, at least the pasted version seems to all be plain ascii letter |s| 2021-03-19T07:34:09Z phantomics: As an added note, there is a preexisting |s| dynamic variable inside the april-workspace-common package, and what happens is that that value overrides the internal |s| value 2021-03-19T07:34:18Z phantomics: But afaik that can't happen 2021-03-19T07:34:46Z White_Flame: depends on when the lambdas you generate are actually called 2021-03-19T07:34:52Z phantomics: Yes, it's a plain ascii s 2021-03-19T07:35:01Z White_Flame: however, a special var being unbound is not the same as the var being unknown at compile-time 2021-03-19T07:35:25Z White_Flame: what is the exact error you're getting? 2021-03-19T07:35:35Z phantomics: What the lambdas I generate are called? 2021-03-19T07:36:03Z White_Flame: ALAMBDA seems to be an analog of CL:LAMBDA? 2021-03-19T07:36:16Z White_Flame: I don't know if that's something else in APL 2021-03-19T07:36:22Z phantomics: ALAMBDA expands to a lambda with a self-referencing variable 2021-03-19T07:36:30Z phantomics: I'll explain details in a moment... 2021-03-19T07:36:38Z beach: phantomics: What does it mean that there is a preexisting variable with that name? That seems to mean that we are not really dealing with a lexical variable here. 2021-03-19T07:37:08Z phantomics: The exact error is a problem with the APL ↑ function. It tells me "too many subscripts (3) for array of rank 2". This happens because in one of April's unit tests, s is assigned as a 3-element vector, and that is its dynamic value. Inside the function, the lexical s is assigned as a 2-element vector 2021-03-19T07:37:16Z White_Flame: right, thre is only one symbol |a| in that package, and if it's declared special, then it's special everywhere 2021-03-19T07:37:26Z White_Flame: erm, |s| 2021-03-19T07:38:03Z beach: Yes, and then, what appears to be a closure closing over that variable, really isn't. 2021-03-19T07:38:13Z phantomics: Oh, the April compiler declares all dynamic variables (declared outside a function) to be special 2021-03-19T07:38:15Z beach: So when that closure is called later, the variable can very well be unbound. 2021-03-19T07:38:40Z beach: Then you don't really have a lexical variable, do you? 2021-03-19T07:39:04Z phantomics: A variable declared special cannot be defined differently in a lexical scope? 2021-03-19T07:39:14Z beach: That's correct. 2021-03-19T07:39:17Z White_Flame: or even if it's all called in the same shape that the lexical shape implies, if any of the intermediate calls create a new binding for |s|, then that one will be used, not your LET above 2021-03-19T07:39:49Z phantomics: Ok, I also tried using a different variable name instead of |s|, one which is not used in any unit test 2021-03-19T07:40:03Z phantomics: And that gave me the same problem 2021-03-19T07:40:13Z phantomics: Although the binding macro may have caused it to be declared special as well 2021-03-19T07:40:17Z White_Flame: I just hit that specialness issue recently when trying to reuse the special var named * to reference prior values :-p 2021-03-19T07:40:41Z phantomics: So the answer is to only declare variables special when they will always be used dynamically 2021-03-19T07:40:51Z White_Flame: it is a declaration on the symbol 2021-03-19T07:40:57Z phantomics: Symbol, right 2021-03-19T07:41:06Z White_Flame: all uses of that symbol in an evaluated value slot location will use that declaration 2021-03-19T07:41:31Z beach: phantomics: Well, there are some cases where it will work. I believe the Common Lisp HyperSpec has some examples. 2021-03-19T07:41:34Z White_Flame: and there's no NOT-SPECIAL declaration, unfortunately 2021-03-19T07:41:44Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-19T07:41:58Z phantomics: I tried a test with a simpler APL function and it worked that time, which was confusing 2021-03-19T07:42:34Z beach: clhs special 2021-03-19T07:42:35Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_specia.htm 2021-03-19T07:42:42Z phantomics: Does (defvar) always cause a symbol to be declared special? 2021-03-19T07:43:09Z White_Flame: yes, that and defparameter 2021-03-19T07:43:11Z beach: Yes. 2021-03-19T07:43:32Z beach: With those, there is absolutely no way of making the variable lexical. 2021-03-19T07:44:02Z phantomics: Ok, I thought I'd used lexical symbols overriding (defvar) symbols in the past 2021-03-19T07:44:02Z beach: As the Common Lisp HyperSpec page shows, if you have only local SPECIAL declarations, sometimes you can have both lexical and special references. 2021-03-19T07:44:21Z White_Flame: however, it would need to be dynamically rebound between your LET and the up-arrow usage in order to cause your problem 2021-03-19T07:44:41Z White_Flame: or simply re-apl-assigned I guess 2021-03-19T07:45:24Z phantomics: As far as I know that doesn't happen 2021-03-19T07:45:38Z phantomics: The value it has when causing the problem is the same as the value assigned in the unit test 2021-03-19T07:45:44Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-19T07:45:50Z White_Flame: print the value of |s| at various locations in this chain 2021-03-19T07:46:06Z aggin joined #lisp 2021-03-19T07:46:08Z aggin quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-19T07:46:22Z White_Flame: (print it from runtime, it's the only way to be sure) 2021-03-19T07:47:38Z aggin joined #lisp 2021-03-19T07:47:56Z phantomics: |s| gets assigned on line 12. If I check it on line 13, it's #(24 24). If I check it inside the (alambdas) starting on lines 17 and 32, it's the dynamic value 2021-03-19T07:48:08Z aggin quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-19T07:48:37Z White_Flame: it really smells like it's getting called later, after your LET has exited 2021-03-19T07:49:10Z phantomics: The (apl-compose ¨ ...) operation runs in parallel 2021-03-19T07:49:18Z phantomics: Don't suppose that could be related? 2021-03-19T07:49:22Z phantomics: Using lparallel 2021-03-19T07:49:25Z White_Flame: as in threaded? 2021-03-19T07:49:28Z phantomics: Yes 2021-03-19T07:49:32Z White_Flame: yes, those would see the global value 2021-03-19T07:49:37Z White_Flame: dynamic bindings are thread-local 2021-03-19T07:49:42Z phantomics: Ok, that makes sense then 2021-03-19T07:49:58Z phantomics: Er, lexical bindings are thread-local? 2021-03-19T07:50:09Z White_Flame: dynamic bindings are. 2021-03-19T07:50:23Z White_Flame: LET of a special variable is a dynamic binding, not a lexical one 2021-03-19T07:50:47Z phantomics: Right, but if it's not special then it's a lexical binding and thread-safe? 2021-03-19T07:50:59Z White_Flame: however, I guess lexical bindings are thread-local by nature, as they only exist on the stack (if not just in registers) 2021-03-19T07:51:16Z White_Flame: dynamic bindings are stored in the TLS areas 2021-03-19T07:51:18Z edgar-xyz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-19T07:52:02Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2021-03-19T07:52:32Z White_Flame: if this were a lexical binding, then it would create a closure to hold on to that binding of |s| even across threads & after leaving the LET 2021-03-19T07:52:33Z pve joined #lisp 2021-03-19T07:53:07Z phantomics: Ok, I'll curtain the special declarations and see how things work 2021-03-19T07:53:15Z Nilby: This reminds me of when I tried to emulate old non-lexical elisp's weird dynamic binding with symbol macros and packages. 2021-03-19T07:53:44Z phantomics: Implementing an elisp in CL? 2021-03-19T07:53:52Z White_Flame: with both alambdas referencing that same closure, you'd be thrashing an object in parallel if you were to mutate it 2021-03-19T07:53:58Z Nilby: something like that 2021-03-19T07:54:19Z phantomics: Only one of the two alambdas will run 2021-03-19T07:54:23Z Nilby: elisp has buffer specific variables and weird default values 2021-03-19T07:54:43Z phantomics: The two alambdas are for either a monadic or dyadic function, which one runs depends on the number of args 2021-03-19T07:55:00Z gioyik quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-03-19T07:55:22Z White_Flame: but in a nutshell, yes if it were a non-special plain lexical variable binding, then all would be as you expected 2021-03-19T07:55:22Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-19T07:55:38Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-19T07:55:52Z Nilby: APL in CL has a cool terse/verbose look to it. 2021-03-19T07:56:01Z White_Flame: this is exactly why special variable names are *earmuffed*, but since this notionally isn't lisp, that gets violated 2021-03-19T07:56:24Z White_Flame: so they don't conflict with non-earmuffed lexicals 2021-03-19T07:56:51Z phantomics: Nilby: the code producing what you see in the paste is (5 5⍴1÷25) {s←24 24 ⋄ (⍳⍴⍺){s↑⍺↓⍵}¨⊂⍵} 28 28⍴⍳25 2021-03-19T07:57:23Z Nilby: *gasp* 2021-03-19T07:57:42Z Nilby: I think I like the CL/APL combo better. 2021-03-19T07:58:19Z Nilby: but maybe the APL would be better for typing on the phone 2021-03-19T07:58:22Z phantomics: You can get an idea of what APL symbols generate what closures by looking for them in the code 2021-03-19T07:58:40Z phantomics: For instance, the ↑ produces the (apl-call ↑ ...) form 2021-03-19T07:59:11Z admich joined #lisp 2021-03-19T07:59:25Z phantomics: Those symbols in the compiled code are mostly just there to show you what function a closure is implementing 2021-03-19T07:59:37Z White_Flame: btw, what's your keyboard input scheme for all the apl chars? 2021-03-19T07:59:41Z phantomics: The (apl-call) macro disregards its first argument 2021-03-19T07:59:55Z phantomics: in Linux: setxkbmap us,apl -option grp:win_switch 2021-03-19T08:00:20Z phantomics: Then I hold the win key and type APL chars 2021-03-19T08:00:59Z White_Flame: I guess it shouldn't surprise me that that's built in :) 2021-03-19T08:04:51Z attila_lendvai_ joined #lisp 2021-03-19T08:05:01Z asarch: There is no way to call a super function, right? 2021-03-19T08:06:26Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-03-19T08:07:45Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-03-19T08:08:27Z isoraqathedh: asarch: If you're asking for a way to call a less-specific method in CLOS, the local function call-next-method is what you're looking for. 2021-03-19T08:08:40Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-19T08:09:01Z isoraqathedh: Oh wait, it's APL. 2021-03-19T08:09:04Z isoraqathedh: Sorry. 2021-03-19T08:09:54Z asarch: (defclass foo () ...) (defmethod show ((instance foo)) ...) (defclass bar (foo) ...) (defmethod show ((instance bar)) (call-next-method ...))? 2021-03-19T08:10:22Z asarch: bar's show masks foo's show, right? 2021-03-19T08:10:38Z isoraqathedh: Yes, but you can choose to get it back by calling (call-next-method). 2021-03-19T08:10:52Z isoraqathedh: Note no arguments; it automatically re-passes them to the next method. 2021-03-19T08:11:27Z asarch: Thank you! 2021-03-19T08:11:28Z gareppa joined #lisp 2021-03-19T08:11:32Z asarch: Thank you very much! :-) 2021-03-19T08:11:32Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-19T08:11:52Z isoraqathedh: What's happening under the hood is that CLOS assembles all the methods that could conceivably apply to the particular generic function call with those arguments, and then it chooses the most specific one to run. 2021-03-19T08:12:13Z isoraqathedh: They're in an order so that there's a "next method" to run, which is what call-next-method does. 2021-03-19T08:12:33Z isoraqathedh: It's... not quite super() from other languages because multiple dispatch but it's conceptually simple enough. 2021-03-19T08:12:35Z gareppa quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-19T08:13:51Z asarch: Wow! 2021-03-19T08:14:03Z asarch: Thanks for the explanation! :-) 2021-03-19T08:14:59Z isoraqathedh: asarch: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/43/Method-combination.png 2021-03-19T08:15:22Z isoraqathedh: There's a lot of things working under the hood with CLOS; this is the easiest way to understand call-next-method under the standard method combination. 2021-03-19T08:15:33Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-19T08:15:42Z skapate quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-19T08:17:27Z asarch: That helps a lot 2021-03-19T08:20:54Z isoraqathedh: Also, a bit of a technical thing: in CLOS, a class (or an instance of a class) does not own a method, so it's not technically correct to say "foo's show" or "bar's show". Instead, it's "show as specialised on foo" and "show as specialised on bar". Reframing it this way helps you understand how method combinations work: it emphasises that it's essentially the method that is "orchestrating" the whole 2021-03-19T08:20:55Z heisig joined #lisp 2021-03-19T08:20:56Z isoraqathedh: lot, finding out the classes of the arguments and deciding what to run. 2021-03-19T08:22:32Z asarch: Yeah, foo's show is a bad habit from C++... 2021-03-19T08:22:41Z asarch: Sorry 2021-03-19T08:31:45Z frost-lab quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-19T08:32:30Z OlCe` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-19T08:35:19Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2021-03-19T08:35:25Z Codaraxis quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-19T08:35:38Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-03-19T08:35:46Z Codaraxis joined #lisp 2021-03-19T08:39:04Z bryanhonof joined #lisp 2021-03-19T08:41:04Z gj joined #lisp 2021-03-19T08:41:31Z gj: Good morning, all. 2021-03-19T08:41:50Z beach: Hello gj. 2021-03-19T08:44:34Z gj: I am here to ask for something to program in lisp, a challenge of sorts. I have a bit of free time right now but am not sure of what to do. 2021-03-19T08:45:02Z bryanhonof quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-19T08:45:16Z beach: gj: What kind of programming would you like to do? 2021-03-19T08:45:49Z beach: gj: I mean, if you say "web stuff" or "something with FFI", then I'll abandon right away. 2021-03-19T08:47:06Z gj: Not web stuff, or FFI, then. I don't really mind at all what sort of programming... 2021-03-19T08:47:39Z beach: gj: I have a list of suggested projects. Let me find it for you.... 2021-03-19T08:47:40Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-19T08:47:59Z prxq_ quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-03-19T08:48:10Z prxq joined #lisp 2021-03-19T08:48:28Z Major_Biscuit joined #lisp 2021-03-19T08:48:37Z beach: http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/suggested-projects.html 2021-03-19T08:48:55Z beach: gj: Feel free to ask questions about the projects listed. 2021-03-19T08:50:43Z beach: Some of the projects are being worked on already. 2021-03-19T08:52:07Z gj: Oh, thank you very much! 2021-03-19T08:52:31Z gj: An editor for music scores... That is an interesting project. 2021-03-19T08:54:40Z beach: Very. I wrote Gsharp a long time ago. The successor is called Clovetree. 2021-03-19T08:54:49Z beach: Like Rosegarden, Lilypond.... 2021-03-19T08:55:24Z beach: It is a huge project though. 2021-03-19T08:55:48Z gj: Definitely, I cannot even think of where to begin with something like that. 2021-03-19T08:56:04Z beach: Heh, then pick something simpler. :) 2021-03-19T08:57:19Z motersen joined #lisp 2021-03-19T08:57:27Z beach: gj: A calendar program or an email client would be doable if you use McCLIM for the GUI. 2021-03-19T08:57:52Z gj: Email client sounds good. 2021-03-19T08:58:18Z beach: Yes, it's a good project. Fairly well defined. 2021-03-19T08:58:31Z Codaraxis quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-19T08:58:43Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-03-19T08:58:54Z asarch_ joined #lisp 2021-03-19T09:01:41Z asarch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-19T09:03:45Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-19T09:04:59Z beach: gj: I strongly encourage the use of McCLIM though. McCLIM is going to be essential for the big picture of things. Think Lisp OS, as that page suggests. 2021-03-19T09:05:55Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-19T09:08:47Z beach: Plus, McCLIM is getting quite good lately, and it deserves more applications that use it. 2021-03-19T09:11:54Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-19T09:13:20Z OlCe` joined #lisp 2021-03-19T09:13:29Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-19T09:14:15Z matryoshka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-19T09:14:52Z asarch_ is now known as asarch 2021-03-19T09:17:44Z OlCe` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-19T09:19:26Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-03-19T09:22:56Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-03-19T09:26:46Z tessier_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-19T09:35:48Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2021-03-19T09:46:15Z OlCe joined #lisp 2021-03-19T09:46:43Z frost-lab88 joined #lisp 2021-03-19T09:47:57Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-19T09:50:03Z frost-lab quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-19T09:52:45Z cchristiansen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-19T09:55:37Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-19T09:56:26Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-19T09:58:29Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-19T10:00:07Z vegansbane6963 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-03-19T10:02:08Z frost-lab88 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-19T10:03:42Z adlai: is there a reasonably recent overview of McCLIM's pros-and-cons? 2021-03-19T10:03:50Z adlai is familiar enough with these as of a decade ago 2021-03-19T10:04:05Z adlai: ... and has no idea how things have changed since then 2021-03-19T10:04:08Z beach: What do you mean cons? :) 2021-03-19T10:04:38Z beach: adlai: It has been actively improved for many years now by several devoted contributors. 2021-03-19T10:05:00Z beach: But I am unaware of such an overview. 2021-03-19T10:05:15Z luna_is_here quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-19T10:05:29Z adlai: in my case, the main pain point would be how difficult it is to make interfaces that are consistent between a terminal, where you are limited to a two-dimensional grid of a finite set of characters, and the "any color you want, any pixel you want, at your refresh resolution" display 2021-03-19T10:06:02Z beach: Furthermore, the people in #clim are quite reactive, so if you have questions or problems, they are quite present. 2021-03-19T10:06:09Z adlai: I guess the easiest way to answer that this is trivial, is to simulate a terminal in the GUI 2021-03-19T10:06:30Z adlai: thank you, I'll take it to there 2021-03-19T10:06:54Z beach: I think jackdaniel has been working on a text-only backend. 2021-03-19T10:07:20Z Nilby: simulating a terminal is not trival 2021-03-19T10:07:31Z beach: There is also renewed work on a Windows backend. 2021-03-19T10:07:52Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-19T10:08:08Z asarch quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-19T10:08:30Z beach: Nilby: I think the people in #clim share with me the conviction that trivial things are not worth the trouble. :) 2021-03-19T10:09:21Z luna_is_here joined #lisp 2021-03-19T10:10:13Z ldbeth: anyone interested in writing proof assistant in CL? :-) 2021-03-19T10:13:41Z gj: Proof assistant? 2021-03-19T10:13:51Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-19T10:14:46Z ldbeth: Something that can aid mathematicians or logicians writing a formal proof 2021-03-19T10:15:39Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-19T10:15:44Z flip214: Kingsy: not sure I understand you here correctly. you get possible completions but they vanish by themself? 2021-03-19T10:15:50Z beach: Isn't ACL2 such a system. 2021-03-19T10:16:09Z beach: ldbeth: ↑ 2021-03-19T10:16:22Z luna_is_here quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-19T10:17:58Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-19T10:18:21Z luna_is_here joined #lisp 2021-03-19T10:18:23Z OlCe quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-19T10:18:41Z ldbeth: It is, but there are other approaches to towards a proof assistant/automated theorem prover too 2021-03-19T10:19:08Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-19T10:19:31Z adlai: ldbeth: my impression, from a few brief forays in that direction, is that the people who actually use such tools for their professional work, prefer libraries that are specific to each domain 2021-03-19T10:19:40Z adlai: e.g. sheafhom 2021-03-19T10:19:44Z adlai: or kenzo 2021-03-19T10:19:44Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-19T10:20:28Z adlai: then they search for [counter]examples using these computational tools, rather than asking a prolog-on-steroids whether fermat's last theorem is proven 2021-03-19T10:21:41Z Nilby: Yes, a math theorem prover usually has much different requirements than an engineering theorem prover. 2021-03-19T10:23:38Z ldbeth: adlai: well, but prolog-on-steroids are probably still useful at representing how to make use of these domain specific decision procedures 2021-03-19T10:25:12Z adlai is unqualified to have any stronger opinion, at this point; e.g. has read neither the four-color map theorem's proof, nor the prover 2021-03-19T10:27:17Z gj quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-19T10:27:26Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-03-19T10:30:21Z aggin joined #lisp 2021-03-19T10:31:58Z aggin: How would one use CLOS to have a function like initialize-instance to change the value of a classes slots using :initarg ? I do not want to use initialize-instance as I have defined an :after method for it 2021-03-19T10:32:22Z aggin: which I don't want to run while changing the values of the slots 2021-03-19T10:32:32Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-19T10:32:53Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-19T10:33:08Z frgo: Hi all. I seem to be unable to understand what this tries to accomplish and if it even is a valid type declaration: (declare (type (or null (function (t) card8)) fn)) ... Can someone parse that for me? 2021-03-19T10:33:10Z frgo: Thx! 2021-03-19T10:33:19Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-03-19T10:33:59Z ldbeth: aggin: (setf (slot-value ) ) is this what you looking at? 2021-03-19T10:35:22Z oxum_ joined #lisp 2021-03-19T10:35:34Z aggin: ldbeth: no, i want something like how initialize-instance does with :initarg 2021-03-19T10:35:35Z ldbeth: frgo: that declares the variable "fn" is either a "nil" or a function maps value of arbitrary type to a result of type "card8" 2021-03-19T10:36:22Z frgo: So it *is* actually a valid type declaration... Hrm. Thankss! 2021-03-19T10:36:24Z beach: frgo: I am not an expert, but isn't it just a variable FN that can be either NIL or a function that takes any argument and returns a CARD8? 2021-03-19T10:37:23Z ldbeth: aggin: then it looks like you are looking for REINITIALIZE-INSTANCE? 2021-03-19T10:37:39Z oxum quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-19T10:37:42Z aggin: ldbeth: oh ok 2021-03-19T10:37:44Z aggin: thanks 2021-03-19T10:37:49Z frgo: Yep - that's what I assumed, too. This appears in the CLX source and causes issues on AllegroCL. 2021-03-19T10:38:08Z beach: What's the issue? 2021-03-19T10:38:34Z ldbeth: Well, AllegroCL seems has a specific implementation of CLX 2021-03-19T10:38:50Z beach: Hmm. 2021-03-19T10:39:21Z ldbeth and CLIM 2021-03-19T10:39:23Z frgo: beach: (typep fn '(or null (function (t) card8))) --> (FUNCTION (T) (INTEGER 0 255)) -- Illegal type specifier to type. 2021-03-19T10:39:49Z frgo: There's also: (deftype card8 () '(unsigned-byte 8)) 2021-03-19T10:39:52Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-19T10:39:57Z beach: Oh, yes, I don't think you are allowed to use FUNCTION type specifiers to TYPEP. 2021-03-19T10:40:32Z frgo: Oh ... 2021-03-19T10:40:39Z ldbeth: yes, although it is acceptable to declare 2021-03-19T10:40:40Z beach: clhs typep. 2021-03-19T10:40:40Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for typep.. 2021-03-19T10:40:43Z beach: clhs typep 2021-03-19T10:40:43Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_typep.htm 2021-03-19T10:40:56Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2021-03-19T10:42:21Z beach: frgo: See the type-specifier argument specification. 2021-03-19T10:42:26Z frgo: Yep: "An error of type error is signaled if type-specifier is values, or a type specifier list whose first element is either function or values." . That's clear then. Thanks!! 2021-03-19T10:42:45Z beach: Pleasure. 2021-03-19T10:48:25Z aggin quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-19T10:49:09Z aindilis quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-19T10:50:47Z aindilis joined #lisp 2021-03-19T10:52:02Z tessier joined #lisp 2021-03-19T10:52:02Z tessier quit (Changing host) 2021-03-19T10:52:02Z tessier joined #lisp 2021-03-19T10:53:32Z Codaraxis joined #lisp 2021-03-19T10:54:41Z aggin joined #lisp 2021-03-19T10:55:45Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-19T10:59:02Z ski_ is now known as ski 2021-03-19T10:59:28Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-19T11:00:04Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-19T11:00:28Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-19T11:01:37Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-19T11:03:24Z aggin quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-19T11:05:44Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-19T11:09:36Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-19T11:10:43Z andreyorst_ is now known as andreyorst 2021-03-19T11:11:12Z oxum joined #lisp 2021-03-19T11:14:21Z OlCe joined #lisp 2021-03-19T11:14:26Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-19T11:15:02Z oxum_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-19T11:55:45Z ldbeth: guess no one has yet wire irc into common lisp repl 2021-03-19T12:03:17Z dhil joined #lisp 2021-03-19T12:03:33Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-19T12:05:48Z ldbeth: Is it yet possible to use McCLIM based tools to develop common lisp programs, without GNU Emacs 2021-03-19T12:06:32Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-19T12:06:53Z holycow joined #lisp 2021-03-19T12:07:19Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-19T12:08:03Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-19T12:08:33Z scymtym: it may be technically possible with the Climacs application, but using GNU Emacs with SLIME is probably the better option for now 2021-03-19T12:09:06Z edgar-rft: I wrote Common Lisp programs using Windows Notepad, so why should that not be possible with McClim stuff? 2021-03-19T12:09:10Z scymtym: that said, swapping out pieces such as using the Clouseau inspector instead of SLIME's inspector can be an improvement already 2021-03-19T12:14:24Z matryoshka joined #lisp 2021-03-19T12:14:25Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-19T12:14:38Z frost-lab quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-19T12:14:47Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-19T12:15:39Z adlai left #lisp 2021-03-19T12:17:03Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-19T12:17:31Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2021-03-19T12:18:32Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-19T12:21:38Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-19T12:27:03Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-19T12:31:15Z ldbeth quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-19T12:31:52Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-19T12:34:32Z mathrick_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-19T12:38:27Z mathrick_ joined #lisp 2021-03-19T12:40:15Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-19T12:42:28Z caret joined #lisp 2021-03-19T12:42:42Z VincentVega joined #lisp 2021-03-19T12:42:56Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2021-03-19T12:43:33Z VincentVega: Is there a tool to trace all function calls, which would then build a directed graph showing who calls who? 2021-03-19T12:44:32Z luna_is_here quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-19T12:45:02Z Xach: VincentVega: that is approximately what a profiler can do 2021-03-19T12:45:15Z dale quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-19T12:45:46Z VincentVega: Xach: Good point. Maybe I will look into some profiler then. 2021-03-19T12:46:08Z ldbeth: VincentVega: there is an old tool called xref, avaliable with SLIME 2021-03-19T12:46:14Z Xach: VincentVega: the compiler can do that at compile-time, too - that's how xref data becomes available 2021-03-19T12:46:33Z Xach: but that's a little different from tracing actual calls 2021-03-19T12:46:45Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-19T12:47:29Z luna_is_here joined #lisp 2021-03-19T12:47:45Z ldbeth: although the original name of this util is called "Who-Calls", on symbolics lisp machine :) 2021-03-19T12:48:14Z VincentVega: Oh, nice, then! I can probably do without tracing for now, this sounds sufficient. I guess I can build/draw a graph myself. Thanks, guys! 2021-03-19T12:48:52Z frgo_ joined #lisp 2021-03-19T12:49:18Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2021-03-19T12:52:33Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-19T12:55:42Z mrchampion joined #lisp 2021-03-19T12:58:19Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-19T12:59:21Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-03-19T13:00:49Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2021-03-19T13:00:56Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-19T13:01:43Z Sheilong joined #lisp 2021-03-19T13:04:32Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-19T13:05:39Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-19T13:06:40Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-19T13:08:53Z warweasle joined #lisp 2021-03-19T13:09:40Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-19T13:11:11Z holycow quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-03-19T13:11:21Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-19T13:12:08Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-19T13:12:13Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-19T13:12:27Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-19T13:16:13Z OlCe quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-19T13:18:23Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-19T13:19:20Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-03-19T13:21:30Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2021-03-19T13:22:44Z ldbeth quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-19T13:26:00Z v3ga_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-19T13:26:52Z ebrasca` joined #lisp 2021-03-19T13:27:16Z glamas_ joined #lisp 2021-03-19T13:28:39Z IPmonger quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5+deb4 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-19T13:28:51Z rigidus`` joined #lisp 2021-03-19T13:29:19Z recalloc_ joined #lisp 2021-03-19T13:29:21Z varjagg joined #lisp 2021-03-19T13:29:21Z supercoven joined #lisp 2021-03-19T13:29:29Z srji_ joined #lisp 2021-03-19T13:30:16Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2021-03-19T13:30:29Z Major_Bi1 joined #lisp 2021-03-19T13:30:34Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-19T13:31:39Z luna_is_here_ joined #lisp 2021-03-19T13:33:52Z shifty quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-19T13:33:52Z ebrasca quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-19T13:33:52Z ukari quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-19T13:33:52Z luna_is_here quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-19T13:33:52Z aartaka quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-19T13:33:52Z dhil quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-19T13:33:52Z varjag quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-19T13:33:52Z Major_Biscuit quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-19T13:33:52Z marusich quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-19T13:33:53Z recalloc quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-19T13:33:53Z spacebat2 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-19T13:33:53Z srji quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-19T13:33:53Z xlei quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-19T13:33:53Z glamas quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-19T13:33:53Z phantomics quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-19T13:33:53Z rigidus` quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-19T13:34:46Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-19T13:36:27Z xlei joined #lisp 2021-03-19T13:37:54Z amk quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-19T13:38:07Z amk joined #lisp 2021-03-19T13:39:35Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-03-19T13:39:52Z Bike quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-19T13:40:33Z phantomics joined #lisp 2021-03-19T13:40:50Z spacebat2 joined #lisp 2021-03-19T13:40:53Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-03-19T13:41:39Z marusich joined #lisp 2021-03-19T13:41:45Z dhil joined #lisp 2021-03-19T13:42:56Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-19T13:43:03Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-03-19T13:45:14Z Bike is now known as Guest97570 2021-03-19T13:47:14Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-19T13:48:18Z phantomics quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2021-03-19T13:48:45Z phantomics joined #lisp 2021-03-19T13:54:19Z ebrasca` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-19T13:54:50Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2021-03-19T13:55:21Z hvxgr quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-19T13:56:07Z hvxgr joined #lisp 2021-03-19T13:59:21Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-19T14:02:26Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-19T14:02:43Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-03-19T14:04:52Z oxum_ joined #lisp 2021-03-19T14:06:08Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2021-03-19T14:07:33Z _death: very strange.. (loop repeat 10000 count (= least-positive-single-float (random least-positive-single-float))) => 0 as expected but (= least-positive-single-float (random least-positive-single-float)) by itself sometimes returns true (sbcl) 2021-03-19T14:08:58Z oxum quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-19T14:10:35Z Guest97570: in a loop it never seems to return true, and more to the point, in `(let () ...)` to force the compiler 2021-03-19T14:10:38Z Guest97570: oh for 2021-03-19T14:11:17Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-03-19T14:11:56Z oxum joined #lisp 2021-03-19T14:12:35Z _death: right 2021-03-19T14:15:38Z oxum_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-19T14:16:11Z skapate joined #lisp 2021-03-19T14:16:38Z jrm quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-19T14:17:37Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-19T14:19:49Z scymtym joined #lisp 2021-03-19T14:22:15Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-03-19T14:29:53Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-19T14:31:18Z Guest97570 is now known as Bike 2021-03-19T14:32:46Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-19T14:32:58Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-03-19T14:33:22Z tinhatcat joined #lisp 2021-03-19T14:35:19Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2021-03-19T14:36:07Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2021-03-19T14:37:02Z Josh_2: Good afternoon 2021-03-19T14:40:47Z tinhatcat quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-19T14:43:53Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-19T14:44:54Z Lycurgus: just heard in #haskell "If I run out of memory again I'm switching to Lisp" 2021-03-19T14:48:20Z edgar-rft: let's garbage-collect Haskell as a language 2021-03-19T14:49:58Z semz: Somewhat related: Is there a good resource on writing non-consing CL? 2021-03-19T14:50:49Z semz: Obviously somewhat implementation-dependent, but there seem to be some shared characteristics and it seems much more viable than in other GC'd languages 2021-03-19T14:51:25Z jackdaniel: allocate the memory once and modify it destructively (i.e don't use consing operations) 2021-03-19T14:52:33Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-19T14:52:44Z Josh_2: Then cry when you can't debug it :P 2021-03-19T14:53:48Z wsinatra quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-19T14:53:50Z semz: "how to walk tightrope - step 1: don't fall down" 2021-03-19T14:53:50Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-03-19T14:54:46Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-03-19T14:55:17Z adlai joined #lisp 2021-03-19T14:57:04Z scymtym quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-19T14:57:31Z scymtym joined #lisp 2021-03-19T14:58:06Z beach: semz: Why do you need to avoid consing. I suspect such code will be very hard to maintain. 2021-03-19T14:58:41Z semz: I'm generally interested in dealing with low memory situations, especially recovering from them 2021-03-19T14:58:50Z beach: I see. 2021-03-19T14:59:14Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-19T14:59:33Z adlai: faith in automated garbage collection is the original premature optimisation! 2021-03-19T15:00:08Z adlai rejoined #lisp wondering whether any implementations of the condition system use truly bizarre optimisations for the condition objects themselves 2021-03-19T15:00:27Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-19T15:00:59Z adlai: from a quick skim of CLHS chapter nine, it seems that the natural way to implement them is either as CLOS objects, possibly with a custom metaclass; or as structs, with a short-circuit in EQUALP that does not descend into conditions 2021-03-19T15:01:22Z adlai wonders whether any implementations have explored the other options 2021-03-19T15:02:18Z adlai: e.g. a system where the values returned by accessors on condition objects are not copied out of the signalling context 2021-03-19T15:02:19Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-03-19T15:03:36Z adlai: theoretically, a condition object could be as simple as "here is the stack pointer at the time of the call to #'SIGNAL" 2021-03-19T15:03:47Z sjl joined #lisp 2021-03-19T15:06:21Z Josh_2: If you are curious you could go to #sbcl and ask the sbcl devs 2021-03-19T15:06:51Z adlai: this is a CL question, not "how does that specific implementation do this" 2021-03-19T15:07:19Z Bike: a condition object can't be that simple, because there is nothing that requires them to have dynamic extent 2021-03-19T15:07:38Z adlai: where is the guarantee that a condition object given to a handler is not dynamic-extent ? 2021-03-19T15:07:39Z Bike: to have ONLY dynamic extent, i mean 2021-03-19T15:07:40Z Josh_2: Sounds to me like you are asking an implementation question tho 2021-03-19T15:07:51Z Bike: where is the guarantee that any object isn't dynamic-extent? it's the default. 2021-03-19T15:08:00Z Gnuxie[m]: >faith in GC is premature optimization 2021-03-19T15:08:02Z Bike: when something can have dynamic-extent they say so explicitly, as with environments and restarts 2021-03-19T15:08:07Z Gnuxie[m]: U wot m8 2021-03-19T15:08:47Z adlai: Josh_2: I'm asking "does any implementation do this"; if your answer was "yes, SBCL does", then I misunderstood you. 2021-03-19T15:09:40Z Bike: it's also pretty useful in practice to let conditions escape handlers, as with logging systems 2021-03-19T15:09:42Z adlai: Bike: that's what I generally understand as well, although conditions are one area where I would not be surprised to see that default changed 2021-03-19T15:09:59Z Bike: contrast this with restarts, where it says "An implementation is free to implement a restart in whatever manner is most convenient; a restart has only dynamic extent relative to the scope of the binding form which establishes it. " 2021-03-19T15:10:56Z Bike: also at least one built in operator lets conditions escape the dynamic extent of a SIGNAL call, now that i'm thinking about it - IGNORE-ERRORS 2021-03-19T15:11:37Z adlai is fairly certain HANDLER-CASE does too? 2021-03-19T15:11:59Z Bike: true 2021-03-19T15:12:26Z Bike: that said, there are some optimizations that can be done elsewhere 2021-03-19T15:12:46Z Bike: some implementations will store (lambda (condition) (typep condition type-specifier)) instead of just the type-specifier, for handler-bind and handler-case 2021-03-19T15:12:58Z Bike: which lets the type test be compiled 2021-03-19T15:13:57Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-19T15:14:01Z adlai: the trivial case for such an optimisation is numerical routines where you hit various conditions at a frequency comparable to your floating point processor's clock rate, and don't want to cons and collect entire condition objects that often 2021-03-19T15:14:31Z adlai: and "don't use floating point numbers for those computations" is just stupid 2021-03-19T15:14:58Z adlai: if the floating point processor behaves deterministically, there's no fundamental reason to pretend it doesn't exist. 2021-03-19T15:15:18Z Bike: does any floating point work people actually do involve hitting FP exceptions a billion times a second? 2021-03-19T15:15:34Z adlai: nah 2021-03-19T15:15:46Z adlai: computers are only used for talking on IRC anyway 2021-03-19T15:15:56Z Bike: that was a genuine question, i wouldn't know 2021-03-19T15:16:17Z adlai: and comparisons are impossible across different engineering multiples 2021-03-19T15:18:40Z adlai: joking aside, my guess is that they don't, because nobody ever tries doing interesting things with floating point numbers 2021-03-19T15:18:55Z adlai: they write routines that avoid the errors in advance. 2021-03-19T15:19:20Z adlai on the other hand has plenty of bad ideas, and wonders whether they are even possible before starting to implement them 2021-03-19T15:20:23Z OlCe joined #lisp 2021-03-19T15:21:11Z aeth: You wrap the floating point calculations in float-features:with-float-traps-masked and then potentially error once, at the very end of the computation. 2021-03-19T15:21:26Z v3ga joined #lisp 2021-03-19T15:22:47Z Bike: traps are optional in 754 and using them has been a bit harrowing in my experience 2021-03-19T15:23:02Z adlai: aeth: thank you, I'll have to read about that library at some point 2021-03-19T15:23:35Z adlai: is it one of the 'trivial' bordeaux-threads-like compatibility layers, or something more complex? 2021-03-19T15:23:58Z Bike: more on the trivial end of things 2021-03-19T15:24:11Z Bike: it's mostly one file 2021-03-19T15:24:38Z Bike: it exposes infinities, NaNs, with-float-traps-masked, and float-from/to-IEEE-representation stuff 2021-03-19T15:25:25Z adlai: fwiw, I only got into this mental debugging session thanks to 2021-03-19T15:25:30Z adlai: clhs 9.1.4.1.1 2021-03-19T15:25:30Z specbot: Resignaling a Condition: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/09_adaa.htm 2021-03-19T15:25:45Z adlai: "it would not be permissible for two distinct asynchronous keyboard events to signal identical condition objects at the same time for different situations" 2021-03-19T15:26:04Z Bike: boy, that's specific. 2021-03-19T15:26:29Z aeth: async existed back then? 2021-03-19T15:27:09Z Bike: obviously 2021-03-19T15:27:09Z adlai: async has existed ever since there was more than one chip on a circuit board, regardless of what they tell you about lisp machines. 2021-03-19T15:27:22Z Bike: reality is asynchronous 2021-03-19T15:27:32Z adlai: it is definitely fun to pretend it isn't! 2021-03-19T15:30:27Z adlai: I suppose some edge cases of a badly-implemented graphics algorithm could cause a lot of floating point errors, by accident. 2021-03-19T15:33:03Z aeth: usually those are obvious because some or all of the vertices are now at infinity and you can't see them 2021-03-19T15:33:20Z aeth: although I guess those are hard to distinguish from a camera looking in the wrong direction, too 2021-03-19T15:35:21Z varjagg quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3)) 2021-03-19T15:36:01Z adlai: anything that uses distances as denominators can run into problems when vertices get too close 2021-03-19T15:36:38Z adlai: dimensionality reduction is not premature optimisation, although not every algorithm has every optimisation! 2021-03-19T15:37:06Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-19T15:38:54Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-19T15:51:05Z cosimone quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 28.0.50)) 2021-03-19T15:56:08Z OlCe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-19T16:05:34Z copec: I usually play in CL with math things, but I want to write something to do the http/xml api requests to webserver control panels that I manage. What http client library is probably the most popular? 2021-03-19T16:06:30Z Xach: copec: drakma probably, dexador seems to be another option 2021-03-19T16:06:54Z copec: Thanks 2021-03-19T16:07:12Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-19T16:16:33Z Josh_2: I personally use dexador 2021-03-19T16:16:39Z adlai: does the CLIM spec live anywhere other than "machine located in Hamburg and hooked to the internet via VDSL" ? 2021-03-19T16:16:55Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-19T16:17:03Z _death: adlai: mcclim has it in its repo 2021-03-19T16:17:51Z _death: adlai: there's also https://github.com/mmontone/clim-doc 2021-03-19T16:17:59Z beach: adlai: As _death says, we were given the permission to include it in the repository. It is just that the online version is so much more convenient to use on a daily basis. 2021-03-19T16:18:17Z adlai: excellent, thank you both 2021-03-19T16:18:46Z _death: beach: yeah, it has annotations.. maybe it should also be backed via a git repo or something 2021-03-19T16:19:16Z beach: Maybe so. You would have to ask gilberth to do that. 2021-03-19T16:20:03Z adlai: fwiw it's not only in the mcclim repo, but also the quicklisp archive! 2021-03-19T16:20:21Z OlCe joined #lisp 2021-03-19T16:22:32Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-03-19T16:23:18Z _death: now why is :vk-enter not interpreted as :newline gesture :/ 2021-03-19T16:23:19Z jonatack_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-19T16:24:08Z luni quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-19T16:24:16Z _death: I mean :kp-enter 2021-03-19T16:31:47Z ex_nihilo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-19T16:36:43Z shka_: what is the best heuristic to check if the lisp is running under slime? 2021-03-19T16:37:28Z _death: dunno about best.. I've some #+swank 2021-03-19T16:38:17Z _death: or do you mean whether there is an active connection? 2021-03-19T16:40:22Z _death: swank:connection-info should likely be modified so it returns NIL if there's no connection.. 2021-03-19T16:42:55Z _death: well, I misinterpreted what it means.. it's connection-info from slime's pov, not from swank's 2021-03-19T16:43:02Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-19T16:44:18Z shka_: _death: hmmm 2021-03-19T16:44:32Z shka_: i guess i will ignore this 2021-03-19T16:44:36Z shka_: it is not big deal 2021-03-19T16:50:21Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-03-19T17:07:34Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-19T17:08:01Z Klopsch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-19T17:08:30Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-19T17:09:07Z Klopsch joined #lisp 2021-03-19T17:12:48Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-19T17:13:03Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-19T17:13:29Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-19T17:13:36Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-19T17:13:41Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-19T17:13:52Z kevingal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-19T17:14:24Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-19T17:14:38Z caret quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-19T17:15:05Z Shinmera: scymtym: By the way, the latest dev version of kandria has a lot more content in it, so might be more interesting for your CLOS benchmarks. It also has a bunch of editor improvements that your kid might find cool to play with ;) 2021-03-19T17:16:56Z gitgoood quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-19T17:18:45Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-19T17:19:42Z scymtym: Shinmera: i didn't really have time to work on the dispatch stuff, but i can probably try how things perform. is the current version still available from the same repositories (mainly kandria and trial i think)? 2021-03-19T17:19:45Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-19T17:21:38Z Shinmera: kandria has moved to here: https://gitea.tymoon.eu/shinmera/kandria 2021-03-19T17:21:50Z Shinmera: since we ran into github's lfs limit. Everything else should be in the same place though. 2021-03-19T17:22:56Z v3ga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-19T17:23:07Z scymtym: i see, thanks. i'll let you know how it goes 2021-03-19T17:24:04Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-03-19T17:24:36Z Shinmera: Sure, no rush at all! 2021-03-19T17:25:14Z v3ga joined #lisp 2021-03-19T17:26:49Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-19T17:27:11Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-19T17:28:37Z dbotton: If I passed to a function a function symbol say #'my-func to get the symbol 'my-func? 2021-03-19T17:28:37Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-19T17:29:01Z Bike: you could use function-lambda-expression, but it is not always possible. 2021-03-19T17:29:19Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-19T17:29:27Z Bike: the implementation doesn't have to save the names of functions. 2021-03-19T17:30:55Z dbotton: Thanks 2021-03-19T17:30:55Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-19T17:31:24Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-19T17:35:44Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-03-19T17:36:49Z dale joined #lisp 2021-03-19T17:36:49Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-19T17:37:00Z gitgood joined #lisp 2021-03-19T17:37:14Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-19T17:37:15Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-19T17:37:35Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-19T17:41:07Z dbotton: Is there a down side to using symbol-function and just passing the symbol? 2021-03-19T17:41:39Z beach: Performance, and you can use only globally defined functions. 2021-03-19T17:42:43Z beach: Also, I recommend you treat SYMBOL-FUNCTION as obsolete and use FDEFINITION instead. 2021-03-19T17:47:04Z dbotton: Thanks 2021-03-19T17:47:09Z beach: Pleasure. 2021-03-19T17:48:16Z beach: Performance is not an issue in most "modern" Common Lisp implementations, since they probably store the function in a slot in the symbol. 2021-03-19T17:49:45Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-19T17:53:57Z eddof13 joined #lisp 2021-03-19T17:55:43Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-03-19T17:58:38Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-03-19T17:59:26Z Klopsch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-19T17:59:41Z Klopsch joined #lisp 2021-03-19T18:03:27Z warweasle quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 26.1) 2021-03-19T18:05:08Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-19T18:06:15Z frgo_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-19T18:06:41Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-19T18:09:31Z Lord_of_Life quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-19T18:12:02Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2021-03-19T18:14:49Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-19T18:16:14Z midre quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-19T18:17:46Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-19T18:20:01Z Xach: beach: i recently ran into a situation where (funcall 'string= a b) was 2.5x slower than (funcall #'string= a b) on an implementation. This puzzles me since 11.1.2.1.2 seems to me to justify turning the slower into the faster unconditionally. 2021-03-19T18:20:31Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-19T18:22:31Z sauvin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-19T18:22:52Z midre joined #lisp 2021-03-19T18:26:30Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-19T18:26:44Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-19T18:27:30Z sernamar joined #lisp 2021-03-19T18:27:40Z midre quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-19T18:28:24Z midre joined #lisp 2021-03-19T18:28:35Z motersen quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 27.1) 2021-03-19T18:29:41Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-19T18:31:09Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-19T18:31:31Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-19T18:35:20Z Codaraxis quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-19T18:37:51Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-19T18:38:35Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-19T18:39:53Z Codaraxis joined #lisp 2021-03-19T18:40:18Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-03-19T18:40:52Z motersen joined #lisp 2021-03-19T18:45:06Z motersen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-19T18:46:09Z motersen joined #lisp 2021-03-19T18:46:13Z wsinatra_ joined #lisp 2021-03-19T18:46:15Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-03-19T18:46:57Z wsinatra quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-19T18:48:29Z wsinatra_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-19T18:48:29Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-19T18:48:45Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-19T18:49:02Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-03-19T18:49:53Z dbotton quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-19T18:59:42Z Klopsch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-19T19:00:05Z Klopsch joined #lisp 2021-03-19T19:00:53Z eddof13 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-19T19:00:54Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-19T19:01:21Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-19T19:02:17Z Bike: the implementation could just not do that optimization. (funcall 'a-constant-symbol ...) is probably kind of rare, so it might not seem worth it unless you have actual constant propagation, and that's more work 2021-03-19T19:02:18Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-19T19:02:55Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-19T19:04:23Z jrm2 joined #lisp 2021-03-19T19:09:18Z sernamar quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-19T19:11:50Z Xach: this case happened to be the result of macroexpansion 2021-03-19T19:12:06Z Xach: something like (foo-macro (:test 'string=) clause*) 2021-03-19T19:12:28Z Xach: could the macro be smarter? yes! but the performance difference surprised me a bit. 2021-03-19T19:13:53Z pranavats: Hello, I'd like for some code to be executed before components of a system are loaded via asdf. Is there any way to extend asdf to do that? 2021-03-19T19:15:05Z Xach: pranavats: there's an :around-compile option documented in the manual. perhaps that would work. 2021-03-19T19:15:53Z pranavats: Thank you 2021-03-19T19:16:17Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-03-19T19:19:40Z jrm2 is now known as jrm 2021-03-19T19:24:11Z Major_Bi1 quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-19T19:31:08Z swampfsck joined #lisp 2021-03-19T19:33:41Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-19T19:34:53Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-19T19:36:03Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2021-03-19T19:42:44Z random-nick quit (Quit: quit) 2021-03-19T19:43:38Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-03-19T19:44:15Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-03-19T19:49:30Z trubi joined #lisp 2021-03-19T19:57:39Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-03-19T19:57:47Z jonatack_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-19T19:58:15Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-03-19T19:59:15Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-03-19T20:04:56Z Inline quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-19T20:05:05Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-03-19T20:07:03Z jonatack__ joined #lisp 2021-03-19T20:07:23Z admich` joined #lisp 2021-03-19T20:08:51Z admich quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-19T20:10:27Z jonatack_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-19T20:10:37Z motersen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-19T20:11:24Z epony quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-19T20:11:53Z epony joined #lisp 2021-03-19T20:12:04Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-03-19T20:12:05Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2021-03-19T20:12:05Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-03-19T20:14:08Z attila_lendvai_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-19T20:15:56Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-19T20:23:00Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-03-19T20:24:20Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-03-19T20:30:32Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-19T20:31:46Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-19T20:32:03Z Codaraxis quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-19T20:32:23Z Codaraxis joined #lisp 2021-03-19T20:33:08Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-19T20:33:28Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-03-19T20:33:53Z admich` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-03-19T20:34:30Z wsinatra quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-03-19T20:39:59Z jonatack__ quit (Quit: jonatack__) 2021-03-19T20:41:05Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2021-03-19T20:41:58Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-19T20:46:55Z aindilis joined #lisp 2021-03-19T20:50:30Z mathrick_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-19T20:51:31Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-03-19T20:55:12Z mathrick joined #lisp 2021-03-19T21:02:21Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-19T21:03:20Z supercoven quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-19T21:07:20Z trubi quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-19T21:11:57Z semz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-19T21:12:34Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-19T21:13:20Z adlai quit (Quit: irc is harmful to adlai) 2021-03-19T21:18:08Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-19T21:19:31Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-19T21:20:13Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-19T21:20:56Z Noisytoot is now known as NOISYTOOT 2021-03-19T21:21:23Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-19T21:27:43Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-19T21:31:33Z NOISYTOOT is now known as VERYNOISYTOOT 2021-03-19T21:39:23Z Krystof quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-19T21:39:46Z VERYNOISYTOOT is now known as Noisytoot 2021-03-19T21:51:24Z trubi joined #lisp 2021-03-19T21:51:38Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-19T21:55:39Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-19T21:55:47Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-19T22:00:26Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-19T22:03:36Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-19T22:04:48Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-19T22:07:02Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-19T22:07:09Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-03-19T22:10:11Z anticrisis_ joined #lisp 2021-03-19T22:10:54Z gpiero_ joined #lisp 2021-03-19T22:11:14Z edgar-xyz joined #lisp 2021-03-19T22:11:38Z mseddon6 joined #lisp 2021-03-19T22:11:41Z IPmonger_ joined #lisp 2021-03-19T22:12:07Z edgar-rft quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-19T22:12:07Z gpiero quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-19T22:12:07Z zigpaw107 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-19T22:12:07Z mseddon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-19T22:12:07Z fitzsim quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-19T22:12:07Z Ankhers quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-19T22:12:07Z HiRE quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-19T22:12:07Z mseddon6 is now known as mseddon 2021-03-19T22:12:33Z zupss_ joined #lisp 2021-03-19T22:12:56Z save-lisp-or-die quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-19T22:12:56Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-19T22:12:56Z docl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-19T22:12:56Z docl_ joined #lisp 2021-03-19T22:12:56Z zigpaw1076 joined #lisp 2021-03-19T22:12:56Z hhdave joined #lisp 2021-03-19T22:12:56Z zupss quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-19T22:12:56Z kbtr quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-19T22:12:56Z luni quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2021-03-19T22:13:04Z Ankhers joined #lisp 2021-03-19T22:13:05Z HiRE joined #lisp 2021-03-19T22:13:05Z kbtr_ joined #lisp 2021-03-19T22:13:07Z fitzsim` joined #lisp 2021-03-19T22:13:09Z Mandus quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-19T22:13:38Z Mandus joined #lisp 2021-03-19T22:13:45Z anticrisis quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-19T22:13:45Z OlCe quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-19T22:13:45Z hhdave_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-19T22:13:47Z fitzsim` is now known as fitzsim 2021-03-19T22:16:09Z me_at_drewc_ca quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-19T22:17:26Z SP41 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-19T22:18:07Z SP41 joined #lisp 2021-03-19T22:18:25Z drewc joined #lisp 2021-03-19T22:18:45Z gpiero_ quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-03-19T22:19:17Z gpiero joined #lisp 2021-03-19T22:22:05Z save-lisp-or-die joined #lisp 2021-03-19T22:22:07Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-19T22:35:02Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-19T22:35:34Z attila_lendvai_ joined #lisp 2021-03-19T22:37:08Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-19T22:40:37Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-03-19T22:45:12Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-19T22:45:58Z attila_lendvai_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-19T22:48:36Z pve quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-19T22:54:09Z sauvin joined #lisp 2021-03-19T22:55:03Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-19T22:56:12Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-19T22:57:39Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-19T23:00:08Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-19T23:00:33Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-19T23:00:33Z jonatack_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-19T23:04:39Z Helmholtz joined #lisp 2021-03-19T23:07:02Z tiwEllien quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-19T23:07:15Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-19T23:09:29Z Sheilong quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-19T23:10:15Z trubi left #lisp 2021-03-19T23:12:24Z monkey__ joined #lisp 2021-03-19T23:16:24Z rixard quit 2021-03-19T23:20:11Z edgar-xyz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-19T23:25:26Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-03-19T23:29:56Z Helmholtz quit (Quit: Helmholtz) 2021-03-19T23:38:39Z monkey__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-19T23:42:23Z Codaraxis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-19T23:43:04Z Codaraxis joined #lisp 2021-03-19T23:45:03Z rixard joined #lisp 2021-03-19T23:45:04Z Codaraxis quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2021-03-19T23:45:28Z Codaraxis joined #lisp 2021-03-19T23:59:08Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-19T23:59:33Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-20T00:01:28Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-03-20T00:04:50Z cosimone quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-20T00:05:26Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-03-20T00:10:21Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-20T00:14:54Z elusive joined #lisp 2021-03-20T00:17:30Z elusive quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-20T00:17:42Z elusive joined #lisp 2021-03-20T00:29:10Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-03-20T00:32:36Z Spawns_Carpeting joined #lisp 2021-03-20T00:37:00Z DHARMAKAYA joined #lisp 2021-03-20T00:40:04Z Helmholtz joined #lisp 2021-03-20T00:41:57Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-20T00:45:27Z abhixec joined #lisp 2021-03-20T00:47:19Z Codaraxis_ joined #lisp 2021-03-20T00:50:57Z Codaraxis quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-20T00:56:36Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2021-03-20T00:57:58Z dhil quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-20T01:07:54Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-20T01:12:57Z cchristiansen joined #lisp 2021-03-20T01:13:29Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-20T01:35:43Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-20T01:37:29Z really3 joined #lisp 2021-03-20T01:40:52Z leb joined #lisp 2021-03-20T01:41:23Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-03-20T01:45:35Z matryoshka` joined #lisp 2021-03-20T01:46:23Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-20T01:46:40Z matryoshka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-20T01:48:07Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-20T01:49:01Z grnman_ joined #lisp 2021-03-20T01:56:32Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-20T02:06:05Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-20T02:08:40Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-20T02:16:47Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-20T02:19:46Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-03-20T02:29:25Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-20T02:38:07Z DHARMAKAYA quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-20T02:41:18Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-20T02:42:23Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-20T02:44:24Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-20T02:45:44Z swampfsck quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-03-20T02:47:08Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-20T02:52:33Z really3 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-20T02:53:27Z Helmholtz quit (Quit: Helmholtz) 2021-03-20T03:20:08Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-03-20T03:29:15Z Helmholtz joined #lisp 2021-03-20T03:29:40Z prxq_ joined #lisp 2021-03-20T03:33:35Z prxq quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-20T03:44:11Z _whitelogger_ joined #lisp 2021-03-20T03:51:54Z sm2n_ is now known as sm2n 2021-03-20T03:54:18Z elusive quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-20T03:57:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is it possible to reset the list being collected into by loop? 2021-03-20T04:01:48Z asarch joined #lisp 2021-03-20T04:01:49Z Alfr quit (Killed (wilhelm.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))) 2021-03-20T04:01:53Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-03-20T04:02:58Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-20T04:03:09Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2021-03-20T04:10:35Z Spawns_Carpeting: Good morning 2021-03-20T04:11:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: j 2021-03-20T04:15:57Z Helmholtz quit (Quit: Helmholtz) 2021-03-20T04:16:16Z beach: Spawns_Carpeting: Are you new here? I don't recognize your nick. 2021-03-20T04:17:02Z beach: Xach: That is surprising indeed. What implementation was that? 2021-03-20T04:18:19Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-20T04:18:52Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: I don't think there is a way to access the list collected. 2021-03-20T04:19:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I decided to switch to a with/do instead of collect 2021-03-20T04:19:27Z beach: Yeah, much better. 2021-03-20T04:19:33Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-20T04:21:36Z Spawns_Carpeting: beach: yes 2021-03-20T04:22:06Z Spawns_Carpeting: First time in this channel. I just discovered lisp a few days ago and have been attempting to learn it 2021-03-20T04:22:16Z beach: Great! Welcome! 2021-03-20T04:23:10Z beach: Feel free to ask questions. If they become numerous and truly trivial, depending on traffic here, you may be asked to take them to #clschool. 2021-03-20T04:24:11Z Spawns_Carpeting: That's a good channel to know about thanks 2021-03-20T04:24:50Z akoana joined #lisp 2021-03-20T04:25:28Z beach: Sure. 2021-03-20T04:29:42Z Codaraxis_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-20T04:33:23Z Codaraxis_ joined #lisp 2021-03-20T04:35:30Z beach: Spawns_Carpeting: What programming language(s) did you use in the past? 2021-03-20T04:37:23Z Spawns_Carpeting: Mostly Python, C and C++ 2021-03-20T04:37:45Z Spawns_Carpeting: So coming from those and then trying lisp... the difference is really big 2021-03-20T04:37:56Z beach: Indeed. 2021-03-20T04:38:29Z beach: The semantics of Common Lisp is closer to Python than to C and C++, but performance of a good Common Lisp implementation is closer to C++ than to Python. 2021-03-20T04:39:26Z Spawns_Carpeting: I have been using CLISP and SBCL. CLISP seems really terribly slow but SBCL is incredibly fast 2021-03-20T04:40:20Z beach: Yeah. CLISP uses a bytecode interpreter for its evaluator (but I think there is work to do something better) whereas SBCL compiles to native code. 2021-03-20T04:41:19Z moon-child: clisp is still under development? 2021-03-20T04:41:40Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-03-20T04:41:55Z beach: moon-child: Somewhat, I think. Yes. 2021-03-20T04:41:57Z Spawns_Carpeting: Emacs lisp is pretty neat too, that's what introduced me to it all 2021-03-20T04:42:32Z beach: Sure. 2021-03-20T04:43:11Z Codaraxis_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-20T04:44:57Z beach: I have a funny anecdote about Emacs Lisp. When RMS announced Emacs in 1984 (I think it was), I answered his email saying it would be better to first write a good Lisp system and then implement Emacs in it, rather than writing a very rudimentary Lisp system specifically for Emacs. 2021-03-20T04:44:58Z beach: He answered (I believe I remember it literally): "Sounds good! Let me know when you have implemented it!" 2021-03-20T04:45:43Z Spawns_Carpeting: wow you had RMS's email? that's pretty cool 2021-03-20T04:45:58Z Spawns_Carpeting: I guess it was a mailing list or something but still 2021-03-20T04:46:14Z beach: Yes, email was pretty much the only option then. 2021-03-20T04:48:07Z beach: I haven't seen him much lately, but when we organized the "Libre Software Meeting" for many years (starting in 2000 I think) he was a regular visitor. And I invited him to spend a few weeks at our laboratory at some point as well. 2021-03-20T04:50:03Z beach: Hmm, so I guess I am currently working on what he "encouraged" me to do. :) Only some 37 years later. 2021-03-20T04:50:27Z Spawns_Carpeting: You are working on a lisp implementation? 2021-03-20T04:50:32Z beach: Yes. 2021-03-20T04:50:45Z beach: minion: Please tell Spawns_Carpeting about SICL. 2021-03-20T04:50:46Z minion: Spawns_Carpeting: SICL: SICL is a (perhaps futile) attempt to re-implement Common Lisp from scratch, hopefully using improved programming and bootstrapping techniques. See https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL 2021-03-20T04:52:41Z Spawns_Carpeting: That sounds fun, also very impressive 2021-03-20T04:52:49Z beach: Thanks. 2021-03-20T04:52:55Z Spawns_Carpeting: You certainly must know quite a lot about the language ha! 2021-03-20T04:54:04Z beach: Many people who hang out here are very knowledgeable. Not only about Common Lisp, but about many other things. That's a huge reason why I like #lisp. I am certainly not *the* expert. 2021-03-20T04:54:40Z beach: Spawns_Carpeting: Oh, and don't waste your time on SICL at this point. It is not ready yet. I would stick to SBCL if I were you. 2021-03-20T04:54:44Z Spawns_Carpeting: That's the cool thing about freenode in general, lot's of knowledge available 2021-03-20T04:55:49Z beach: Indeed. But I hear rumors that many channels are a lot less friendly and a lot more tolerant of ignorant babble than #lisp. 2021-03-20T04:58:17Z Spawns_Carpeting: I need to head to sleep it's 1am here. It was nice meeting you beach: I will certainly be back with hopefully not too basic of questions ! 2021-03-20T04:58:30Z beach: Sleep well. 2021-03-20T05:02:15Z beach: So north America is already on daylight savings time, I guess. 2021-03-20T05:03:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: beach: yeah, my life has been sort of miserable because kids don't recognize DST 2021-03-20T05:03:31Z beach: I can see that. 2021-03-20T05:03:51Z beach: Here in France, we worry more about the cows than about the kids. 2021-03-20T05:07:01Z skapate quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-20T05:07:02Z beach: I say "we", but I worry about neither myself. I was only reporting what I see on the TV news. 2021-03-20T05:07:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: I hope to make it to Europe one of these years 2021-03-20T05:08:07Z beach: You haven't been here yet? 2021-03-20T05:08:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: No, I don't even have a passport :) 2021-03-20T05:08:47Z beach: Oh, yeah, then definitely! It's a great place! 2021-03-20T05:09:38Z beach: Maybe for ELS2022. 2021-03-20T05:11:08Z kevingal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-20T05:11:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, that would be fun. I've been sort of planning on a trip to Europe in '22 for other reasons 2021-03-20T05:11:44Z beach: I see. 2021-03-20T05:15:20Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-20T05:19:20Z oxum quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-20T05:24:32Z asarch_ joined #lisp 2021-03-20T05:27:25Z asarch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-20T05:34:44Z Oddity- is now known as Oddity 2021-03-20T05:37:14Z asarch_ is now known as asarch 2021-03-20T05:55:09Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-20T06:09:02Z _whitelogger_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-20T06:11:13Z _whitelogger_ joined #lisp 2021-03-20T06:15:43Z akoana quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-20T06:17:21Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-20T06:17:50Z krkini joined #lisp 2021-03-20T06:18:23Z cchristiansen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-20T06:18:38Z kini quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-20T06:18:43Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-03-20T06:21:58Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-20T06:29:23Z cyberlard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-20T06:33:01Z _whitelogger_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-20T06:35:11Z _whitelogger_ joined #lisp 2021-03-20T06:36:45Z DHARMAKAYA joined #lisp 2021-03-20T06:37:26Z krkini quit (Quit: bye) 2021-03-20T06:39:25Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-03-20T06:45:02Z _whitelogger_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-20T06:47:13Z _whitelogger_ joined #lisp 2021-03-20T06:47:28Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-03-20T06:48:36Z kini joined #lisp 2021-03-20T06:52:34Z admich joined #lisp 2021-03-20T07:03:02Z _whitelogger_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-20T07:05:13Z _whitelogger_ joined #lisp 2021-03-20T07:22:01Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-20T07:26:04Z leb quit 2021-03-20T07:26:21Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-20T07:34:20Z rotty quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-20T07:34:36Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-20T07:35:04Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-20T07:35:04Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2021-03-20T07:35:04Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-20T07:42:28Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-20T07:45:10Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-03-20T07:45:20Z admich quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-20T07:47:52Z cods quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-20T07:48:52Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-20T07:48:57Z admich joined #lisp 2021-03-20T07:51:12Z kenran joined #lisp 2021-03-20T07:55:02Z pve joined #lisp 2021-03-20T07:56:50Z DHARMAKAYA quit (Quit: Turning off a portion of this simulation.) 2021-03-20T07:58:28Z tiwEllien joined #lisp 2021-03-20T08:01:05Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-20T08:02:40Z vutral_ joined #lisp 2021-03-20T08:07:29Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-03-20T08:11:22Z madage joined #lisp 2021-03-20T08:11:27Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-20T08:15:07Z patrixl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-20T08:15:26Z patrixl joined #lisp 2021-03-20T08:19:36Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-20T08:20:33Z stylewarning_ joined #lisp 2021-03-20T08:20:36Z Grue` joined #lisp 2021-03-20T08:23:12Z stylewarning quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-20T08:23:12Z Grue`` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-20T08:23:13Z stylewarning_ is now known as stylewarning 2021-03-20T08:25:57Z abhixec quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-20T08:29:39Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2021-03-20T08:37:23Z rotty joined #lisp 2021-03-20T08:39:19Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-20T08:39:50Z anticrisis_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-20T08:43:58Z surabax joined #lisp 2021-03-20T08:46:08Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-20T08:50:32Z cods joined #lisp 2021-03-20T08:53:03Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-20T08:56:37Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-20T09:00:02Z arichiardi[m] quit (Quit: Idle for 30+ days) 2021-03-20T09:00:07Z equwal quit (Quit: Idle for 30+ days) 2021-03-20T09:09:28Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-20T09:13:13Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-20T09:13:27Z abhixec joined #lisp 2021-03-20T09:13:44Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-20T09:13:57Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-20T09:14:09Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-20T09:20:08Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-20T09:20:54Z kini quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-20T09:22:14Z kini joined #lisp 2021-03-20T09:23:13Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-20T09:37:24Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-03-20T09:42:28Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-20T09:54:12Z dhil joined #lisp 2021-03-20T09:54:33Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-20T09:54:50Z CL-ASHOK joined #lisp 2021-03-20T09:55:19Z CL-ASHOK: is it possible to do the following (defun (my-variable) (let ((my-variable (+ my-variable 1).... 2021-03-20T09:55:48Z CL-ASHOK: i.e. is the parameter variables in a different namespace to the lexical scope of the let 2021-03-20T09:55:51Z CL-ASHOK: and I can re-use them 2021-03-20T09:56:01Z CL-ASHOK: or do I need to have seperate names? 2021-03-20T09:56:45Z beach: Hold on a minute.... 2021-03-20T09:56:56Z beach: First of all, DEFUN takes a function name as the first parameter. 2021-03-20T09:57:05Z CL-ASHOK: sorry I missed that part 2021-03-20T09:57:05Z beach: Did you just omit it? 2021-03-20T09:57:07Z CL-ASHOK: yes 2021-03-20T09:57:08Z CL-ASHOK: sorry 2021-03-20T09:57:41Z beach: The parameter is in the same namespace as other variables. 2021-03-20T09:57:50Z beach: So you can do what you suggested. 2021-03-20T09:58:04Z beach: Except you should use the function 1+ rather than (+ ... 1) 2021-03-20T09:58:39Z CL-ASHOK: Thanks! So does it just override the value of my-variable? 2021-03-20T09:58:52Z beach: Within the scope of the LET, yes. 2021-03-20T09:59:03Z CL-ASHOK: thanks! 2021-03-20T09:59:07Z beach: Pleasure. 2021-03-20T09:59:22Z CL-ASHOK: (p.s. looks strange what I'm doing but I'm trying to implement some function overloading with &key) 2021-03-20T10:00:06Z vegansbane6963 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-03-20T10:00:24Z beach: I don't see the relation. What do you mean by "function overloading" and how is it related to &key? 2021-03-20T10:00:29Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-20T10:01:35Z CL-ASHOK: Function overloading is when you have functions with the same name but accepting different parameters 2021-03-20T10:01:50Z CL-ASHOK: e.g. get-data (field1 field2) and get-data (field3) 2021-03-20T10:02:22Z CL-ASHOK: so I'm using &key to make these fields optional and accessible, e.g. (defun get-data (&key (field1 nil) (field2 nil) (field3 nil)... 2021-03-20T10:02:27Z beach: I guess you could do that with &rest and/or &optional, but I don't see how to do it with &key. 2021-03-20T10:02:46Z CL-ASHOK: then using a let where I check if they are supplied, to determine the correct function to execute 2021-03-20T10:03:12Z admich` joined #lisp 2021-03-20T10:03:12Z CL-ASHOK: but I don't want to keep creating new names, so its good to be able to reuse the names (like in my original question) 2021-03-20T10:03:15Z beach: Then you would have to call it like this: (get-data :field1 ... :field2 ...) 2021-03-20T10:03:20Z CL-ASHOK: yes 2021-03-20T10:03:20Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-20T10:04:11Z beach: That looks like just a function with keyword arguments to me. Nothing special. 2021-03-20T10:04:32Z matryoshka` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-20T10:04:55Z cpt_nemo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-20T10:04:56Z abhixec quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-20T10:04:58Z CL-ASHOK: Yeah, nothing special. I will just a control flow within the function to do different things with it, depending on which combination of keyword arguments are supplied 2021-03-20T10:05:21Z admich quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-20T10:05:36Z beach: OK. Can I assume you know about the SUPPLIED-P option to keyword parameters? 2021-03-20T10:06:23Z beach: e.g. &key (field1 nil field1-p) (field2 nil field2-p)... 2021-03-20T10:06:24Z CL-ASHOK: I do now! Thanks! 2021-03-20T10:06:28Z beach: OK. 2021-03-20T10:06:38Z CL-ASHOK: more cleaner than checking if they are nil 2021-03-20T10:06:54Z beach: Especially if NIL is a valid argument for one of them. 2021-03-20T10:07:05Z CL-ASHOK: yep 2021-03-20T10:07:21Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-20T10:07:23Z cpt_nemo joined #lisp 2021-03-20T10:07:51Z CL-ASHOK: Is it field1-p or field1-supplied-p or it doesn't matteR? 2021-03-20T10:08:16Z beach: It's your choice. Just a variable. I tend to use the shorter form. 2021-03-20T10:08:18Z admich`` joined #lisp 2021-03-20T10:08:36Z CL-ASHOK: Thanks, really appreciate it :) 2021-03-20T10:09:06Z beach: Sure. Good luck. 2021-03-20T10:09:16Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-20T10:10:09Z admich` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-20T10:15:44Z semz joined #lisp 2021-03-20T10:18:36Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-20T10:19:09Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-20T10:21:01Z admich``` joined #lisp 2021-03-20T10:21:14Z vutral_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-20T10:22:58Z admich`` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-20T10:23:07Z CL-ASHOK quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-20T10:23:17Z andreyorst joined #lisp 2021-03-20T10:23:45Z leb joined #lisp 2021-03-20T10:28:11Z Klopsch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-20T10:28:54Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-20T10:31:27Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-03-20T10:32:31Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-03-20T10:36:34Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-20T10:43:12Z VincentVega joined #lisp 2021-03-20T10:50:51Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2021-03-20T10:51:54Z admich``` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-20T10:54:14Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-20T11:07:08Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-03-20T11:15:33Z marcoxa joined #lisp 2021-03-20T11:16:35Z marcoxa: Hi everybody... just wanted to point you to my latest blog post on HELP. https://within-parens.blogspot.com/2021/03/he-asdf.html Give it a spin. 2021-03-20T11:20:23Z _death: marcoxa: hmm, it has a "<" package, which conflicts with yaclml 2021-03-20T11:21:29Z _death: this is a case where I can accept that local package nicknames make sense 2021-03-20T11:27:33Z marcoxa: _death quick answer. XHTMLambda (https://common-lisp.net/project/xhtmlambda/) is better that yaclml, obviously :) Plus, I think that the "<" package nickname is uset by at least two other HTML/XML libraries. 2021-03-20T11:28:23Z _death: marcoxa: I wasn't aware of it, and should check it out.. but the issue remains ;) 2021-03-20T11:29:20Z _death: since I have yaclml in my core, I would have to recompile a new core in order to test helambdap 2021-03-20T11:29:24Z _death: or rename the package 2021-03-20T11:31:58Z marcoxa: Well. I never compile stuff in a core. I guess renaming package and nicknames ("<" is a nickname for XHTMLambda) can at least make you try things out. 2021-03-20T11:31:58Z _death: marcoxa: well, after renaming it, it gives a compilation error on sbcl, because collection-utilities.lisp has a loop form that has "finally return (values ...)" which is not valid syntax.. it should be "finally (return (values ...))" 2021-03-20T11:32:54Z _death: the are other loop forms with the same issue 2021-03-20T11:36:08Z _death: sbcl also catches a type error in xhtml-lambda-producer, where mapc is used with a non-list 2021-03-20T11:36:10Z marcoxa: Good catch. I don't use fascist implementations, so I get away with a lot :) :) :) You can get the new fix from the repo. I am afraid there may be other instances of the same. 2021-03-20T11:38:35Z marcoxa: If you get other bugs, please open issues on the repo. I have to run for a few hours now. 2021-03-20T11:41:56Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-03-20T11:43:03Z _death: if there's a (defstruct foo bar) helambdap will try to intern FOO-BAR (the conc-name and the slot name) in the package where BAR belongs.. so that means if I have (defstruct foo structure) it will try to intern a symbol in the CL package :/ 2021-03-20T11:43:10Z Xach: marcoxa: http://report.quicklisp.org/2021-03-20/failure-report/helambdap.html#helambdap 2021-03-20T11:43:48Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-20T11:47:53Z _death: it also had an issue where it passed a string to package-shortest-name.. I removed the type declaration and replaced sn assignment form with (if (stringp p) p (package-name p)) 2021-03-20T11:50:28Z SAL9000 joined #lisp 2021-03-20T11:50:40Z _death: ok, likely the biggest issue I have with now, is that the resulting website requires javascript to propertly browse 2021-03-20T11:50:43Z _death: *properly 2021-03-20T11:57:08Z _death: oh, wait.. there's no javascript, sorry.. it's just an "Uncaught DOMException: Access to property denied".. maybe because of a frames setting 2021-03-20T11:59:05Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-20T11:59:29Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-20T12:18:32Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-20T12:19:26Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-20T12:25:42Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-20T12:26:29Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-20T12:29:36Z MrtnDk[m]: @Josh_2 beach Thank y'all for correcting me. I learned from that. (Did Josh_2 leave the room/channel for some reason? I can't seem to tag them)? 2021-03-20T12:29:36Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-20T12:29:46Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-20T12:30:59Z corpix quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-20T12:31:02Z beach: MrtnDk[m]: Some people disconnect when they go do something else. 2021-03-20T12:31:11Z corpix joined #lisp 2021-03-20T12:34:06Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-20T12:34:47Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-20T12:34:48Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-20T12:35:11Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-20T12:37:54Z MrtnDk[m]: beach Yeah, I guess I do that too sometimes, when I'm on IRC. 2021-03-20T12:38:57Z brytemorio joined #lisp 2021-03-20T12:41:22Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-20T12:45:05Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-20T12:45:05Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-20T12:46:11Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-20T12:50:32Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-20T12:51:09Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-20T12:53:24Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-20T12:53:46Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-20T12:54:08Z _jrjsmrtn quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-20T12:54:08Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-20T12:54:14Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp 2021-03-20T12:54:28Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-20T12:56:21Z nij joined #lisp 2021-03-20T12:57:02Z nij: Hello folks! Is there a way in swank/sly to view and select all variables that are bound? 2021-03-20T12:57:59Z nij: For example, for the symbol 'slynk:stop-server, I hope to search for it by typing "sly server" in an ivy buffer. That way, I don't have to remember whether it's "stop-server" or "server-stop". 2021-03-20T12:59:20Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-20T12:59:30Z MrtnDk[m]: nij What du you mean by Swank? 😁 2021-03-20T13:02:08Z brytemorio quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-20T13:02:36Z nij: Ah sorry, slime! 2021-03-20T13:02:36Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-20T13:02:46Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-20T13:02:46Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-20T13:03:19Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-20T13:04:23Z beach: MrtnDk[m]: Swank is the Common Lisp side of the communication between a Common Lisp implementation and Emacs that makes SLIME and Sly possible. 2021-03-20T13:07:37Z nij: Yeah, beach, it's my fault. What makes more sense are the pairs (slime,sly) and (swank,slynk).. but I talked instead (swank,sly), which was confusing. 2021-03-20T13:08:22Z beach: nij: Sure, but I don't think that was the reason for the question asked by MrtnDk[m]. 2021-03-20T13:09:50Z nij: I see! 2021-03-20T13:09:58Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-20T13:11:06Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-20T13:13:20Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-20T13:13:29Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-20T13:16:21Z leb quit 2021-03-20T13:17:27Z tinhatcat joined #lisp 2021-03-20T13:17:45Z frgo quit 2021-03-20T13:23:48Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-20T13:30:59Z andreyorst joined #lisp 2021-03-20T13:31:52Z marcoxa: Xach. Already corrected in the repo. 2021-03-20T13:33:40Z marcoxa: _death excellent catch with the defstruct case. Let me look into it. I will also look into package-shortest-name. 2021-03-20T13:44:51Z monkey__ joined #lisp 2021-03-20T13:45:38Z jprajzne quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-20T13:52:50Z marcoxa: _death the problem with servig static webpages are browser dependent. To test the generate docs you need to have a HTTP server running on a parent directory. I either use hunchentoot or the simpler node/npm http-server to serve static pages to check the docs. 2021-03-20T13:55:50Z _death: marcoxa: I see 2021-03-20T13:57:06Z MrtnDk[m]: beach is right, nij . My question came from a place of ignorance. I haven't really coded common lisp with Emacs yet. I just use my mobile cell gizmo with "CL REPL" to learn a little. I am mainly trying to learn Scheme, but CL is a very strong dialect of Lisp. 2021-03-20T13:57:06Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-20T13:58:46Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-20T14:04:10Z oxum joined #lisp 2021-03-20T14:06:47Z marcoxa: _death I think I fixed also the issue with PACKAGE-SHORTEST-NAME. I just pushed a fix (which may wreck havoc down the road). 2021-03-20T14:14:27Z oxum_ joined #lisp 2021-03-20T14:16:07Z oxum quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-20T14:21:40Z CL-ASHOK joined #lisp 2021-03-20T14:21:54Z prxq_ quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-03-20T14:21:55Z CL-ASHOK: Best book to learn lisp macros from? On Lisp or Let over Lambda? 2021-03-20T14:22:04Z prxq joined #lisp 2021-03-20T14:22:06Z CL-ASHOK: or any other suggestions :) 2021-03-20T14:23:40Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-20T14:24:18Z docl_ is now known as docl 2021-03-20T14:24:21Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-20T14:24:46Z marcoxa: _death I also fixed the structure/conc-name bug. 2021-03-20T14:25:24Z marcoxa: Very nice catch. 2021-03-20T14:27:31Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2021-03-20T14:37:20Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-20T14:37:20Z monkey__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-20T14:37:48Z beach: CL-ASHOK: I haven't read Let over Lambda (yet). But I learned about macros from On Lisp, and I was quite pleased with that. Graham shows some very sophisticated techniques. 2021-03-20T14:38:41Z Sheilong joined #lisp 2021-03-20T14:39:08Z CL-ASHOK: Thanks @beach Looks like On Lisp is recommended as a precursor to LoL 2021-03-20T14:39:09Z beach: CL-ASHOK: You should know, though, that macros are not very frequent. When you need them, it is good that they exist, but it is a common newbie mistake to overuse macros. 2021-03-20T14:39:12Z Josh_2: Afternoon 2021-03-20T14:39:19Z beach: Hello Josh_2. 2021-03-20T14:39:27Z Josh_2: The macros in LoL are pretty crazy 2021-03-20T14:40:36Z CL-ASHOK: @beach agreed - I haven't touched them for a while, thought I'd dip my feet as I've noticed I'm writing a lot of similar code that can be re-used 2021-03-20T14:40:39Z nij: beach: i recently learned that PG started writing that book when he was a undergrad xD 2021-03-20T14:41:44Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-20T14:41:48Z beach: CL-ASHOK: Sure. But the main abstraction mechanism remains functions, possibly generic functions. Macros should be used only when the semantics of a function call won't work. 2021-03-20T14:42:03Z beach: nij: Impressive. 2021-03-20T14:42:08Z srandon111 joined #lisp 2021-03-20T14:43:55Z CL-ASHOK: thanks 2021-03-20T14:45:17Z Krystof joined #lisp 2021-03-20T14:46:53Z nij: beach: OH sorry it was grad school, not undergrad. As in "It's scary to think how little I knew about Lisp hacking when I started writing that book. But there's nothing like writing a book about something to help you learn it. The book, On Lisp, wasn't published till 1993, but I wrote much of it in grad school." 2021-03-20T14:46:57Z nij: http://www.paulgraham.com/worked.html 2021-03-20T14:47:25Z beach: Ah, OK. 2021-03-20T14:50:08Z MrtnDk[m]: Which interpreter is most free? Does guile support common lisp? 2021-03-20T14:50:59Z Xach: MrtnDk[m]: what does free mean to you? and guile does not support common lisp. 2021-03-20T14:51:07Z nij: Are they different lisp dialects? 2021-03-20T14:51:12Z MrtnDk[m]: Josh_2 Welcome back & thank thee (and beach ) for correcting me on and. 2021-03-20T14:51:53Z renzhi joined #lisp 2021-03-20T14:52:09Z beach: MrtnDk[m]: Also, most modern Common Lisp systems compile (on the fly) to native code. So maybe you don't want to ask explicitly for an interpreter. You may get the wrong information then. 2021-03-20T14:52:20Z MrtnDk[m]: nij Are which ones different Lisp dialects? 2021-03-20T14:52:47Z beach: nij: Scheme is a different language from Common Lisp. And Guile is mostly an implementation of Scheme. 2021-03-20T14:53:46Z Josh_2` joined #lisp 2021-03-20T14:54:11Z beach: MrtnDk[m]: Several Common Lisp systems are free: SBCL, CCL, and ECL are probably the ones that most people here use. 2021-03-20T14:55:01Z beach: MrtnDk[m]: ABCL is good if you want one that runs on the JVM. 2021-03-20T14:55:20Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-20T14:55:29Z MrtnDk[m]: Thanks beach & Xach ... you are right beach. I phrased the question like that out of ignorance. Xach Good question about freedom. I was thinking GPL3+, but I'd also like one that integrates well with Emacs, and I'd like one that is part of (or at least packaged for) Debian. Guix would be my secondary choice. 2021-03-20T14:56:22Z beach: MrtnDk[m]: SLIME for Emacs works with any Common Lisp implementation that supports SWANK, and I believe all the ones I cited do that. 2021-03-20T15:00:07Z Josh_2` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1)) 2021-03-20T15:00:29Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2021-03-20T15:01:32Z Josh_2: has anyone used allegro cache? 2021-03-20T15:04:47Z MrtnDk[m]: beach I will look them up. 2021-03-20T15:04:50Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-20T15:13:00Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-20T15:13:31Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-20T15:16:08Z nij quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-20T15:16:18Z luna_is_here_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-20T15:18:13Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-03-20T15:18:29Z luna_is_here joined #lisp 2021-03-20T15:18:36Z beach: Josh_2: I am sure someone has. 2021-03-20T15:20:37Z tinhatcat quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-20T15:33:18Z elusive joined #lisp 2021-03-20T15:37:03Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-20T15:37:35Z aindilis joined #lisp 2021-03-20T15:38:33Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-20T15:39:04Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-20T15:42:47Z Josh_2: isn't there a CL based database around 2021-03-20T15:42:49Z matryoshka joined #lisp 2021-03-20T15:42:54Z Helmholtz joined #lisp 2021-03-20T15:42:57Z Josh_2: made by the folks at the law firm I think 2021-03-20T15:43:11Z Josh_2: I can't find the repo :( 2021-03-20T15:44:28Z Lycurgus: what I more often see is the image considered to be a database, unlike say gen in smalltalk and what not 2021-03-20T15:44:46Z Lycurgus: *gem/gemstone 2021-03-20T15:45:30Z Lycurgus: or prolog doing regular relational algebra which could be in lisp 2021-03-20T15:45:41Z Josh_2: I think some persistant image based storage would be very useful 2021-03-20T15:46:08Z Josh_2: where the lisp image acts as the storage mechanism, this would mean my deployment would be extremely easy to install 2021-03-20T15:47:20Z Lycurgus: that's what I was referring to; I think regular rdms cl pkgs are more consistent with the overall cl cultural ethos 2021-03-20T15:48:04Z ft quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-20T15:49:37Z Lycurgus: *rdbms 2021-03-20T15:49:42Z CL-ASHOK quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-20T16:00:04Z cloudy[m] quit (Quit: Idle for 30+ days) 2021-03-20T16:14:46Z SAL9000: Are there any maintained CL bindings to libgit2? 2021-03-20T16:15:00Z SAL9000: there is https://github.com/russell/cl-git but it's clearly out of date 2021-03-20T16:18:40Z epony quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-20T16:19:57Z drl joined #lisp 2021-03-20T16:20:48Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-20T16:22:25Z epony joined #lisp 2021-03-20T16:25:02Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-20T16:31:03Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-20T16:31:31Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-20T16:34:12Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-20T16:35:52Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2021-03-20T16:36:26Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-20T16:43:11Z attila_lendvai_ joined #lisp 2021-03-20T16:44:21Z abhixec joined #lisp 2021-03-20T16:48:00Z zaquest quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-20T16:48:32Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-03-20T16:49:55Z _death: hmm, sbcl gives a warning for (defun foo (a) (let ((b (sqrt a))) (coerce b 'float))) .. it's true that sqrt may return a complex if provided with a negative value, but I don't see why there should be a warning there and not when the coerce form is replaced by (float b) 2021-03-20T17:00:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: SAL9000: what are you trying to do? I couldn't find any good wrappers around libgit2 when I looked, so I started re-implementing all the datastructures and file readers for git: https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/cl-git.gi 2021-03-20T17:00:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/cl-git.git 2021-03-20T17:00:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: It mostly works, for getting data out of git repositories, but it doesn't handle "delta compression" yet 2021-03-20T17:00:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: There's also Shinmera's legit that just shells out to a git executable 2021-03-20T17:01:03Z SAL9000: fiddlerwoaroof: I have some work on (for lack of better terms) partial copying between Git repositories, with history preservation. That work is in Python and has become a massive non-debuggable hairball... clearly rewrite-in-Lisp time :-) 2021-03-20T17:01:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ah, like the subtree split commands? 2021-03-20T17:01:50Z SAL9000: I'd like to avoid shelling out because this needs to run on Windows where fork is *expensive* (even more so with corporate antivirus... sigh) 2021-03-20T17:02:24Z SAL9000: Hm, maybe? It's more complex than that. I try to "re-attach" history in both directions. 2021-03-20T17:04:03Z SAL9000: Given 2 repos A and B, containing files a and b respectively, I synchronise the set of shared files c (i.e. union(a, b)) between the repositories, copying the equivalent of git log --full-history -- [the_files] 2021-03-20T17:05:57Z SAL9000: fiddlerwoaroof: I like your 'git-issue' thing by the way, it's cute :-) Have you considered using git notes instead, to avoid "polluting" the commit log? 2021-03-20T17:21:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: SAL9000: someone pointed those out to me when I mentioned it once, they don't show up in `git log` as nicely, and most git hosting services don't have a UI for them 2021-03-20T17:21:46Z SAL9000: Yeah, no-one uses them -> they're not supported by things -> no-one uses them :( 2021-03-20T17:21:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, it's probably a better solution in many ways. 2021-03-20T17:22:06Z SAL9000: What's the current solution to C groveling, I guess? c2ffi? 2021-03-20T17:22:20Z SAL9000: Looks like if I want a libgit2 CL binding I'll have to make my own. 2021-03-20T17:22:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: I started writing cl-git so I could write a git webui 2021-03-20T17:22:29Z SAL9000: SWIG recently (mid-2019) ditched all the CL backends, too 2021-03-20T17:23:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've mostly just manually written out the C wrappers 2021-03-20T17:23:13Z SAL9000: that's a lot of functions... ~700 iirc 2021-03-20T17:23:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: Well, I've only ever needed three or four functions from a library 2021-03-20T17:23:58Z SAL9000: I'm thinking use grovelling to wrap the C API, then the manual work can instead be spent making it "Lispy" :) 2021-03-20T17:24:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: Also, most of the FFI I do is objective-c, which is easier to wrap in a bunch of ways 2021-03-20T17:24:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://github.com/rpav/cl-autowrap looks like it might work, though? 2021-03-20T17:25:13Z SAL9000: cl-autowrap uses c2ffi, which is what I mentioned earlier :) 2021-03-20T17:25:36Z SAL9000: I tried it earlier but my work machine's AV decided to explode in my face about "untrusted code", sigh. Will try again later on personal machine. 2021-03-20T17:26:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I try to avoid anything that requires building LLVM 2021-03-20T17:27:44Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-20T17:43:30Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-20T17:44:16Z CL-ASHOK joined #lisp 2021-03-20T17:45:05Z CL-ASHOK: how to stay connected and read previous messages? I always get disconnected when I move away for a bit from freenode 2021-03-20T17:45:09Z hendursaga quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-20T17:45:49Z MrtnDk[m]: SBCL, CCL and ECL. 2021-03-20T17:45:53Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-03-20T17:50:47Z beach: CL-ASHOK: The logs are indicated in the channel topic. 2021-03-20T17:50:49Z semz: CL-ASHOK, an irc bouncer can do that. alternatively, just read the logs afterwards through one of the links in the topic. 2021-03-20T17:52:06Z bendersteed joined #lisp 2021-03-20T17:52:40Z CL-ASHOK: thanks both! 2021-03-20T17:53:05Z bendersteed quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-20T17:53:31Z bendersteed joined #lisp 2021-03-20T17:53:44Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-20T17:56:45Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-03-20T17:58:50Z bendersteed: ye 2021-03-20T17:58:53Z bendersteed left #lisp 2021-03-20T18:02:03Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-20T18:05:08Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-03-20T18:06:05Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-20T18:10:07Z loke[m]: One can also access Freenode via Matrix. That will give you a log as well. 2021-03-20T18:10:16Z loke[m]: I'm using Matrix right now. 2021-03-20T18:13:57Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-20T18:14:42Z CL-ASHOK quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-20T18:15:02Z aeth: you can also run an in-terminal IRC client inside of tmux or screen on a server 2021-03-20T18:15:17Z contrapunctus: CL-ASHOK: I use an XMPP client and a Biboumi instance to stay connected. 2021-03-20T18:24:09Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-03-20T18:25:58Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-20T18:26:10Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-20T18:30:32Z aartaka_d quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-20T18:30:46Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2021-03-20T18:30:48Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-20T18:31:00Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-20T18:31:14Z notzmv is now known as Guest66423 2021-03-20T18:31:45Z Guest66423 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-20T18:32:16Z notzmv- joined #lisp 2021-03-20T18:33:04Z notzmv- is now known as notzmv 2021-03-20T18:37:34Z Tordek quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-20T18:39:31Z Tordek joined #lisp 2021-03-20T18:41:02Z MrtnDk[m]: Me 2😂👍 2021-03-20T18:42:56Z xsperry joined #lisp 2021-03-20T18:43:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: Matrix has some issues with generating duplicate messages 2021-03-20T18:43:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: e.g. when you "edit" a message on matrix, it shows up in IRC as a second message 2021-03-20T18:56:44Z MrtnDk[m]: fiddlerwoaroof 2021-03-20T18:56:44Z MrtnDk[m]: It's a fundamental difference. In IRC, you fire an event, for instance "privmsg", and it's distributed to the connected clients via the linked IRC serves. Then that event is done with, and hence cannot be meddled with. Your client might retain the message however. On matrix, it's the servers that keep the history, and the protocol allows for messages to be edited and even deleted. Of cause that won't be effective on the IRC 2021-03-20T18:56:44Z MrtnDk[m]: side. 2021-03-20T18:59:22Z MrtnDk[m]: beach Thou mentioned CCL, SBCL and ECL. What about CLISP? How does that compare to the others? (I plan on using Emacs as mentioned, and I'm a beginner/learner). 2021-03-20T19:00:38Z Klopsch joined #lisp 2021-03-20T19:01:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: MrtnDk[m]: I think CLISP is generally not recommended 2021-03-20T19:02:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: It makes some questionable implementation decisions, from what I remember, and the available releases are all pretty old (although it is actively developed, if your'e willing to build from source) 2021-03-20T19:02:23Z MrtnDk[m]: fiddlerwoaroof I had the feeling, there might be a reason it wasn't mentioned in the first place, but I'm curious as to what the reason is. The description seems pretty promising. 2021-03-20T19:02:28Z beach: MrtnDk[m]: Listen to fiddlerwoaroof and others. I am off for today. 2021-03-20T19:02:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: MrtnDk[m]: yeah, the problem is that when you use Matrix on IRC and make used of the extra functionality, it can be annoying for people still using IRC 2021-03-20T19:03:05Z MrtnDk[m]: "GNU CLISP is a Common Lisp implementation. It conforms to the ANSI Common Lisp standard, and offers many extensions. It runs on all desktop operating systems (GNU and Unix systems, macOS, Windows) and is particularly memory-efficient." 2021-03-20T19:03:45Z MrtnDk[m]: beach beach Ok, take care, have a great Saturday and thank you for the help! 😎👍 2021-03-20T19:04:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: As a rule, I'd prefer sbcl or ccl, especially if you're just getting started 2021-03-20T19:05:13Z aeth: MrtnDk[m]: I mean, just look at the website. Last stable release: 2010-07-07. https://clisp.sourceforge.io/ 2021-03-20T19:05:23Z DHARMAKAYA joined #lisp 2021-03-20T19:06:03Z aeth: While the Common Lisp *standard* itself doesn't change over time, plenty of extensions are added to every still-active implementation over time. 2021-03-20T19:06:03Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-20T19:06:43Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-20T19:06:45Z aeth: Plus, there's generally a space vs speed tradeoff. So "particularly memory-efficient" might imply "particularly slow for Common Lisp implementations". And with CLISP, it does. :-) 2021-03-20T19:07:51Z MrtnDk[m]: aeth Ahh ... thank you. So while it's really good on paper, it kinda sucks for practical use. 2021-03-20T19:07:51Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-20T19:08:18Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-20T19:09:08Z MrtnDk[m]: I'm guessing for Ubuntu / Raspbian, SBCL or ECL would be the natural choice, and since I don't need embedding at this point, SBCL? 2021-03-20T19:09:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'd say SBCL or CCL 2021-03-20T19:09:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: And probably SBCL 2021-03-20T19:11:31Z MrtnDk[m]: CCL doesn't seem to be available, be or is it named differently in Debian? 2021-03-20T19:12:51Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-03-20T19:13:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, it doesn't look like its available from the repositories 2021-03-20T19:14:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: Guix has it as ccl 2021-03-20T19:15:14Z aeth: CCL isn't in Fedora's repositories, either. It doesn't seem to be as popular with packagers for whatever reason. Maybe because it started as a Mac-first implementation. 2021-03-20T19:15:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: `guix environment ccl` gives me one that seems to work 2021-03-20T19:16:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: the funny thing about ccl is that it doesn't run on my new Mac :) 2021-03-20T19:16:09Z kenran quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-20T19:16:43Z epony quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-20T19:16:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: I hope they get a fundraiser going like sbcl did 2021-03-20T19:17:07Z epony joined #lisp 2021-03-20T19:17:17Z MrtnDk[m]: https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=609047 2021-03-20T19:17:34Z aeth: I get CCL from Roswell 2021-03-20T19:17:56Z kenran joined #lisp 2021-03-20T19:19:02Z aeth: I might just try building it from the source, though. That's what I do with SBCL these days 2021-03-20T19:19:17Z aeth: I'm still on 2.1.0, though. SBCL itself updates faster than I do. 2021-03-20T19:21:03Z Klopsch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-20T19:21:29Z Klopsch joined #lisp 2021-03-20T19:21:30Z jonatack_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-20T19:21:33Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-20T19:21:45Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-20T19:22:07Z MrtnDk[m]: So, for an "lisp idiot" like me, who cannot tell the difference anyhow, SBCL seems like the goto on Debian based systems .. and perhaps CCL as bonus on systems with Guix (not on my raspberry ATM). 2021-03-20T19:22:10Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-03-20T19:22:23Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-20T19:23:20Z aeth: SBCL usually produces the fastest native code. 2021-03-20T19:24:24Z aeth: Note, though, that most CLs bring the whole compile-time environment with them at run-time. Tree shakers exist, but mostly for commercial implementations, and it's actually quite hard to find a substantial number of things that you actually can remove. 2021-03-20T19:24:39Z aeth: So an elaborate compiler also means increased RAM usage (and potentially slower compilation times) 2021-03-20T19:25:39Z aeth: It's an AOT compiler, though, so it's not going to have the startup time cost of the JIT compilers that you're thinking of unless there's no preexisting FASL. 2021-03-20T19:25:41Z Klopsch quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-20T19:26:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: I just added anti-aliasing to my toy raytracer, now it takes about a second per row :( 2021-03-20T19:26:41Z MrtnDk[m]: ʘ‿ʘ FASL? 2021-03-20T19:26:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: FASt Load file 2021-03-20T19:27:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: If you've used python it's roughly equivalent to the .pyc files 2021-03-20T19:28:10Z aeth: Except that most CLs are native code compilers rather than bytecode (CLISP is bytecode, though) 2021-03-20T19:28:51Z aeth: So it's sort of like if you had to compile a C file on first run instead of using precompiled binaries. Except CL compilers are much, much faster than C compilers and especially C++ compilers. 2021-03-20T19:29:31Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-20T19:29:35Z jonatack_ quit (Quit: jonatack_) 2021-03-20T19:29:56Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-20T19:31:00Z aeth: MrtnDk[m]: FASL is the generic term, but most have a variation of that instead of "FASL". SBCL does use .fasl, though. 2021-03-20T19:31:28Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2021-03-20T19:32:07Z MrtnDk[m]: I found this link for unofficial CCL for Debian. The webpage is not from yesterday though: https://mr.gy/blog/clozure-cl-deb.html 2021-03-20T19:33:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: Building CCL from source isn't hard, if CCL already supports your hardware 2021-03-20T19:33:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: However, it sounds to me like you should just use sbcl 2021-03-20T19:34:06Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-20T19:34:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: Writing lisp is a lot more fun than researching implementations :) 2021-03-20T19:34:26Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2021-03-20T19:35:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think I'm going to need to implement a threadpool for this raytracer 2021-03-20T19:35:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: 10 minutes for 1024x768 is too slow, even for a toy :) 2021-03-20T19:36:25Z leb joined #lisp 2021-03-20T19:36:56Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2021-03-20T19:40:45Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-20T19:42:28Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-20T19:44:44Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-20T19:44:50Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-03-20T19:46:16Z ft joined #lisp 2021-03-20T19:48:31Z jonatack_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-20T19:49:01Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-03-20T19:51:38Z bugrum joined #lisp 2021-03-20T19:55:15Z jonatack_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-20T19:55:40Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-03-20T20:03:30Z leb quit 2021-03-20T20:03:51Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-20T20:05:04Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-20T20:06:19Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-20T20:07:11Z MrtnDk[m]: fiddlerwoaroof: I played a little with LOGO on my home computer back in the day. I liked how I could draw real time: Goto x,y ; pendown; move to x2,y2 ; turn 120 ;;; etc. Can you something like that in lisp? 2021-03-20T20:12:56Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-20T20:12:59Z OlCe joined #lisp 2021-03-20T20:20:18Z _death: MrtnDk[m]: sure.. mpv https://adeht.org/dump/vid-2021-03-20T2217.mp4 2021-03-20T20:24:53Z test1600 joined #lisp 2021-03-20T20:25:39Z OlCe quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-20T20:25:57Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-20T20:26:19Z test1600 quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-20T20:26:39Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-20T20:27:18Z test1600 joined #lisp 2021-03-20T20:27:25Z test1600 quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-20T20:29:42Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-20T20:30:02Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-20T20:31:36Z jonatack_ quit (Quit: jonatack_) 2021-03-20T20:35:56Z frgo quit 2021-03-20T20:36:07Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-20T20:36:52Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-20T20:38:33Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-20T20:43:20Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-20T20:44:30Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-20T20:50:18Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-20T20:51:39Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-20T20:58:18Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-20T20:58:20Z pve quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-20T20:58:30Z cyberlard joined #lisp 2021-03-20T21:01:21Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-20T21:02:23Z DHARMAKAYA quit (Quit: Turning off a portion of this simulation.) 2021-03-20T21:05:10Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-20T21:05:47Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-20T21:10:25Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-20T21:19:52Z zalitis joined #lisp 2021-03-20T21:21:24Z scymtym joined #lisp 2021-03-20T21:21:39Z scymtym quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-20T21:24:06Z scymtym joined #lisp 2021-03-20T21:24:15Z scymtym quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-20T21:26:51Z scymtym joined #lisp 2021-03-20T21:26:56Z scymtym quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-20T21:31:09Z zalitis: Hi! Could someone please help me understand an issue with nested lists and setf? I'm trying to set the value for just one element in a nested list structure but, for some reason, multiple elements get affected. Here's some code: 2021-03-20T21:31:09Z zalitis: LISP> *my-list* 2021-03-20T21:31:10Z zalitis: (((150.0 0.0 30 0 1 1) (-150.0 -1.3113417e-5 30 0 1 1)) 2021-03-20T21:31:10Z zalitis:  ((150.0 0.0 30 0 1 1) (-150.0 -1.3113417e-5 30 0 1 1)) 2021-03-20T21:31:11Z zalitis:  ((150.0 0.0 30 0 1 1) (-150.0 -1.3113417e-5 30 0 1 1)) 2021-03-20T21:31:11Z zalitis:  ((150.0 0.0 30 0 1 1) (-150.0 -1.3113417e-5 30 0 1 1))) 2021-03-20T21:31:12Z zalitis: LISP> (elt (elt (elt *my-list* 0) 0) 5) 2021-03-20T21:31:12Z zalitis: 1 (1 bit, #x1, #o1, #b1) 2021-03-20T21:31:13Z zalitis: LISP> (setf (elt (elt (elt *my-list* 0) 0) 5) 3) 2021-03-20T21:31:13Z zalitis: 3 (2 bits, #x3, #o3, #b11) 2021-03-20T21:31:14Z zalitis: LISP> *my-list* 2021-03-20T21:31:14Z zalitis: (((150.0 0.0 30 0 1 3) (-150.0 -1.3113417e-5 30 0 1 3)) 2021-03-20T21:31:15Z zalitis:  ((150.0 0.0 30 0 1 3) (-150.0 -1.3113417e-5 30 0 1 3)) 2021-03-20T21:31:15Z zalitis:  ((150.0 0.0 30 0 1 3) (-150.0 -1.3113417e-5 30 0 1 3)) 2021-03-20T21:31:16Z zalitis:  ((150.0 0.0 30 0 1 3) (-150.0 -1.3113417e-5 30 0 1 3))) 2021-03-20T21:31:16Z zalitis: LISP> 2021-03-20T21:33:22Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-20T21:34:11Z zalitis: This happens when using SBCL with SLY. 2021-03-20T21:34:34Z Josh_2: next time can you use a paste service 2021-03-20T21:34:40Z _death: use a pastebin next time.. the issue is that you have the same object referenced multiple times in the list 2021-03-20T21:34:56Z zalitis: Oops, sorry 2021-03-20T21:37:58Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-20T21:38:32Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-20T21:40:49Z MrtnDk[m]: Josh_2 Maybe he can use #Flood if it's still around? 2021-03-20T21:42:08Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-20T21:42:49Z akoana joined #lisp 2021-03-20T21:44:36Z zalitis: The way I constructed *my-list* was to push the same thing to it four times. Is there any way I could make sure that each element ends up as a unique object, even if the values are the same? 2021-03-20T21:45:57Z _death: copy-list 2021-03-20T21:46:11Z rozenglass joined #lisp 2021-03-20T21:46:33Z _death: or if each item is a nested list, copy-tree.. in general, you can write your own copy operation 2021-03-20T21:47:16Z thmprover joined #lisp 2021-03-20T21:48:35Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-20T21:49:03Z zalitis: copy-tree did the trick. Thanks a lot! 2021-03-20T21:50:30Z kenran quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-20T21:56:41Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-20T21:57:04Z asarch joined #lisp 2021-03-20T22:00:41Z zalitis quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-20T22:01:22Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-20T22:03:18Z zalitis joined #lisp 2021-03-20T22:03:37Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-20T22:04:07Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-20T22:08:13Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-20T22:16:39Z galex-713 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-20T22:18:38Z tiwEllien quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-20T22:20:28Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-20T22:22:32Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-03-20T22:22:32Z zalitis quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-20T22:23:21Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-03-20T22:23:25Z really3 joined #lisp 2021-03-20T22:23:32Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-20T22:26:50Z srandon111 quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-20T22:29:29Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-20T22:31:03Z luni left #lisp 2021-03-20T22:31:27Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-20T22:33:34Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-20T22:39:05Z perrier-jouet quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-03-20T22:39:11Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-20T22:42:48Z perrier-jouet joined #lisp 2021-03-20T22:46:07Z akoana left #lisp 2021-03-20T22:49:33Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-03-20T22:53:29Z perrier-jouet quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-03-20T22:54:18Z perrier-jouet joined #lisp 2021-03-20T22:56:24Z attila_lendvai_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-20T23:00:32Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-20T23:07:57Z rigidus`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-20T23:09:30Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 28.0.50)) 2021-03-20T23:14:56Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-20T23:24:25Z cartwright quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-20T23:25:22Z DHARMAKAYA joined #lisp 2021-03-20T23:26:19Z cartwright joined #lisp 2021-03-20T23:31:45Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-20T23:38:13Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-20T23:38:20Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-20T23:40:22Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-20T23:40:49Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-20T23:42:27Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-20T23:46:23Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-20T23:48:57Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-20T23:49:14Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-20T23:51:55Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-20T23:56:08Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-20T23:57:08Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-20T23:57:09Z Helmholtz quit (Quit: Helmholtz) 2021-03-20T23:59:06Z perrier-jouet quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-03-21T00:00:00Z grnman_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-21T00:00:33Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-21T00:01:18Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-21T00:05:00Z matryoshka` joined #lisp 2021-03-21T00:05:04Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-21T00:06:51Z scymtym joined #lisp 2021-03-21T00:09:08Z perrier-jouet joined #lisp 2021-03-21T00:09:20Z leb joined #lisp 2021-03-21T00:09:26Z perrier-jouet quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-21T00:13:34Z semz joined #lisp 2021-03-21T00:13:34Z semz quit (Changing host) 2021-03-21T00:13:34Z semz joined #lisp 2021-03-21T00:16:32Z yoseph joined #lisp 2021-03-21T00:18:53Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-21T00:21:32Z fitzsim quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-21T00:22:54Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-21T00:26:10Z yoseph quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-21T00:30:02Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-21T00:36:51Z cyberlard quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-21T00:37:06Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-21T00:37:26Z cyberlard joined #lisp 2021-03-21T00:41:22Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-03-21T00:43:35Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-21T00:48:03Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-21T00:48:15Z asarch_ joined #lisp 2021-03-21T00:50:48Z asarch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-21T01:01:00Z dhil quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-21T01:12:34Z cartwright quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.5) 2021-03-21T01:14:13Z cantstanya joined #lisp 2021-03-21T01:18:06Z Cthulhux quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-21T01:18:20Z aap_ joined #lisp 2021-03-21T01:18:40Z aap quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-21T01:18:41Z Aurora_iz_kosmos joined #lisp 2021-03-21T01:18:49Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-21T01:19:21Z madage joined #lisp 2021-03-21T01:19:25Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-03-21T01:19:29Z Aurora_iz_kosmos is now known as Aurora_v_kosmose 2021-03-21T01:19:47Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-21T01:20:05Z Cthulhux joined #lisp 2021-03-21T01:20:51Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-21T01:21:32Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp 2021-03-21T01:23:48Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-21T01:26:43Z asarch_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-21T01:39:44Z DHARMAKAYA quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-21T01:47:21Z renzhi quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-21T01:49:14Z perrier-jouet joined #lisp 2021-03-21T01:50:29Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-21T02:02:34Z aap_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-21T02:02:43Z aap joined #lisp 2021-03-21T02:06:32Z cchristiansen joined #lisp 2021-03-21T02:13:51Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-21T02:18:15Z long4mud joined #lisp 2021-03-21T02:18:41Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-21T02:19:17Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-21T02:19:25Z cchristiansen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-21T02:23:50Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-21T02:28:06Z voidlily quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-21T02:29:24Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-21T02:36:57Z voidlily joined #lisp 2021-03-21T02:39:41Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-21T02:44:19Z hineios9 joined #lisp 2021-03-21T02:44:40Z hineios quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-21T02:44:40Z hineios9 is now known as hineios 2021-03-21T02:47:48Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-21T02:48:04Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-21T02:49:17Z Sheilong quit 2021-03-21T02:52:56Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-21T02:55:03Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-21T02:55:59Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-21T03:05:55Z semz joined #lisp 2021-03-21T03:09:21Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-21T03:12:06Z perrier-jouet quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-03-21T03:13:53Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-21T03:15:40Z thmprover quit (Quit: This parting was well made) 2021-03-21T03:18:42Z matryoshka` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-21T03:18:54Z matryoshka joined #lisp 2021-03-21T03:22:54Z elusive quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-21T03:24:31Z really3 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-21T03:26:09Z ex_nihilo joined #lisp 2021-03-21T03:27:07Z gitgoood joined #lisp 2021-03-21T03:29:04Z prxq_ joined #lisp 2021-03-21T03:29:04Z prxq quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-21T03:29:34Z gitgood quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-21T03:34:29Z skapata quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-21T03:35:46Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-03-21T03:47:15Z raeda joined #lisp 2021-03-21T03:54:53Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-03-21T03:56:36Z raeda: Hello, I'm new here 2021-03-21T03:58:07Z raeda: I'm interested in contributing to ABCL 2021-03-21T03:59:58Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2021-03-21T04:00:56Z beach: raeda: I think easye is the person to talk to then. 2021-03-21T04:01:49Z Alfr is now known as Guest77075 2021-03-21T04:01:53Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-03-21T04:04:08Z Guest77075 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-21T04:05:06Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-21T04:08:37Z raeda: Good morning! Do you know the best way to contact easye? The ABCL channel? 2021-03-21T04:09:03Z beach: Here I think is fine. 2021-03-21T04:10:34Z beach: I don't know what timezone easye is in though. Maybe ask minion for a memo. 2021-03-21T04:14:54Z sauvin_ joined #lisp 2021-03-21T04:17:52Z sauvin quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-21T04:22:24Z raeda_ joined #lisp 2021-03-21T04:22:37Z raeda quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-21T04:23:07Z raeda_ is now known as raeda 2021-03-21T04:31:20Z raeda: minion: memo for easye: I'd like to contribute to the ABCL compiler with bytecode generation and invokedynamic 2021-03-21T04:31:20Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell easye when he/she/it next speaks. 2021-03-21T04:43:45Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-21T04:52:04Z igemnace joined #lisp 2021-03-21T05:00:40Z Alloc joined #lisp 2021-03-21T05:09:33Z Jachy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-21T05:13:45Z raeda quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-21T05:15:22Z Alloc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-21T05:15:37Z Alloc joined #lisp 2021-03-21T05:15:47Z Alloc quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-21T05:22:41Z fiddlerwoaroof was going to mention #abcl to raeda 2021-03-21T05:23:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: minion: memo for raeda: there's also #abcl which isn't very active, but is more dedicated to developing ABCL 2021-03-21T05:23:17Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell raeda when he/she/it next speaks. 2021-03-21T05:25:32Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-03-21T05:29:16Z pankajsg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-21T05:35:17Z Alloc joined #lisp 2021-03-21T05:36:12Z alligator joined #lisp 2021-03-21T05:44:59Z Alloc quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-21T05:48:44Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-21T05:54:57Z theothor` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-21T05:59:57Z alligator left #lisp 2021-03-21T06:00:34Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-21T06:02:03Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-03-21T06:06:02Z _whitelogger_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-21T06:08:13Z _whitelogger_ joined #lisp 2021-03-21T06:14:41Z sauvin_ is now known as Lemniscate 2021-03-21T06:24:02Z _whitelogger_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-21T06:26:13Z _whitelogger_ joined #lisp 2021-03-21T06:28:19Z sauvin_ joined #lisp 2021-03-21T06:31:14Z Lemniscate quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-21T06:32:38Z sauvin_ is now known as Lemniscate 2021-03-21T06:32:45Z igemnace quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-21T06:41:47Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2021-03-21T06:48:51Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-21T06:48:51Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2021-03-21T06:48:51Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-21T06:57:28Z argumentative joined #lisp 2021-03-21T07:02:08Z argumentative quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-21T07:03:11Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-03-21T07:04:07Z fitzsim joined #lisp 2021-03-21T07:07:09Z checkerboard joined #lisp 2021-03-21T07:12:08Z checkerboard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-21T07:13:44Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-21T07:19:52Z procreating joined #lisp 2021-03-21T07:21:42Z fitzsim quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-21T07:28:59Z fitzsim joined #lisp 2021-03-21T07:29:30Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-21T07:30:32Z procreating quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-21T07:31:09Z procreating joined #lisp 2021-03-21T07:31:12Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-21T07:33:48Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-21T07:37:38Z procreating quit (Quit: Reconnecting) 2021-03-21T07:38:14Z leb quit 2021-03-21T07:39:39Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-21T07:39:57Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2021-03-21T07:42:14Z shortcakes joined #lisp 2021-03-21T07:46:33Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-21T07:50:27Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-03-21T07:53:18Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-21T08:05:14Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2021-03-21T08:05:44Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-03-21T08:06:08Z shortcakes quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-21T08:07:52Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-03-21T08:10:45Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-21T08:15:36Z Alice joined #lisp 2021-03-21T08:15:48Z Alice quit (Changing host) 2021-03-21T08:15:48Z Alice joined #lisp 2021-03-21T08:16:08Z Alice quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-21T08:21:01Z _whitelogger_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-21T08:21:07Z demonstrating joined #lisp 2021-03-21T08:21:52Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-21T08:23:13Z _whitelogger_ joined #lisp 2021-03-21T08:48:46Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-21T08:52:31Z demonstrating quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-21T08:57:51Z attila_lendvai_ joined #lisp 2021-03-21T08:58:09Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-21T09:01:59Z falteringly joined #lisp 2021-03-21T09:10:33Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-21T09:11:21Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-21T09:13:13Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-21T09:14:09Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-21T09:25:02Z niceplace joined #lisp 2021-03-21T09:26:51Z niceplace quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-21T09:27:13Z niceplace joined #lisp 2021-03-21T09:29:34Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-21T09:33:33Z flazh quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-21T09:33:51Z flazh joined #lisp 2021-03-21T09:34:28Z falteringly is now known as patch 2021-03-21T09:46:08Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-21T09:49:18Z puchacz joined #lisp 2021-03-21T09:53:12Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-21T09:53:18Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-21T09:55:22Z puchacz quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-21T09:55:35Z theothornhill: What is the best way to open a file relative to 'package-root'? I want to (with-open-file (file "src/foo/bar.lisp") ...). Right now it evals from where sly is currently located. 2021-03-21T09:57:38Z theothornhill is now known as theo` 2021-03-21T09:57:44Z scymtym joined #lisp 2021-03-21T09:57:53Z theo` is now known as theothornhill 2021-03-21T09:59:06Z beach: theothornhill: asdf:system-relative-pathname 2021-03-21T09:59:41Z theothornhill: thanks! 2021-03-21T09:59:46Z beach: Sure. 2021-03-21T10:00:06Z vegansbane6963 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-03-21T10:01:26Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-21T10:01:32Z theothornhill: Works perfectly :) 2021-03-21T10:01:39Z beach: I know. :) 2021-03-21T10:02:23Z mfiano: Keep in mind it won't work with a deployed binary application, since the path will refer to the loaded path before deployment. 2021-03-21T10:03:28Z theothornhill: Oh okay! Not a problem right now, but thanks for the heads up :) 2021-03-21T10:03:45Z mfiano: You'll have to do it at runtime, using implementation internals, or a portability library, using POSIX argv0 or similar 2021-03-21T10:09:53Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-21T10:13:19Z kenran joined #lisp 2021-03-21T10:18:03Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-21T10:18:19Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-21T10:18:43Z surabax joined #lisp 2021-03-21T10:21:41Z niceplace quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-21T10:23:39Z otwieracz joined #lisp 2021-03-21T10:25:27Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-21T10:30:33Z dhil joined #lisp 2021-03-21T10:32:39Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-03-21T10:36:37Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-21T10:39:14Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-03-21T10:43:24Z attila_lendvai_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-21T10:44:48Z otwieracz quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2021-03-21T10:52:27Z flazh quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-21T10:52:33Z kenran quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-21T10:53:27Z flazh joined #lisp 2021-03-21T10:54:26Z kenran joined #lisp 2021-03-21T10:57:03Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-21T11:00:22Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-03-21T11:02:27Z aindilis` joined #lisp 2021-03-21T11:04:56Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-21T11:05:58Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-21T11:10:25Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-21T11:12:54Z kenran quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-21T11:16:53Z retropikzel joined #lisp 2021-03-21T11:17:04Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-21T11:18:50Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-21T11:21:06Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2021-03-21T11:21:51Z madage quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-21T11:25:46Z rigidus joined #lisp 2021-03-21T11:28:23Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-21T11:30:01Z aindilis` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-21T11:30:07Z madage joined #lisp 2021-03-21T11:31:40Z aindilis` joined #lisp 2021-03-21T11:33:44Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-21T11:37:30Z rozenglass quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-21T11:40:32Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-21T11:45:04Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-21T11:49:53Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-21T11:50:23Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-21T11:54:46Z jmiven joined #lisp 2021-03-21T11:55:17Z hvxgr_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-21T11:55:37Z hvxgr_ joined #lisp 2021-03-21T11:55:44Z hvxgr_ quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-21T11:56:15Z hvxgr quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-21T11:57:16Z hvxgr joined #lisp 2021-03-21T12:09:38Z kevingal quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-21T12:13:46Z lukego: any happy users of GENERIC-CL? 2021-03-21T12:16:47Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-03-21T12:22:29Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-21T12:26:24Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-03-21T12:37:26Z gitgoood quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-21T12:47:35Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-21T12:49:05Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-21T12:49:30Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-03-21T12:50:16Z beach: lukego: What is it? 2021-03-21T12:53:36Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-21T12:53:41Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-21T12:55:37Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-21T12:56:32Z matryoshka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-21T12:57:22Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-21T13:02:59Z matryoshka joined #lisp 2021-03-21T13:08:29Z perrier-jouet joined #lisp 2021-03-21T13:13:45Z gitgood joined #lisp 2021-03-21T13:13:46Z lukego: beach: it's a wrapper around the COMMON-LISP package that converts everything into generic functions. https://github.com/alex-gutev/generic-cl 2021-03-21T13:13:59Z beach: Oh, I see. 2021-03-21T13:14:09Z beach: Sounds like most of SICL. :) 2021-03-21T13:15:11Z lukego: better link perhaps at https://alex-gutev.github.io/generic-cl/ 2021-03-21T13:16:50Z lukego: I thought you would be a skeptic of this approach, preferring instead to define new more specific generic functions :) 2021-03-21T13:17:42Z beach: I haven't looked at it (yet). 2021-03-21T13:18:25Z beach: I am just saying that many of the standard functions are generic in SICL. In particular the slot accessors, such as symbol-name, symbol-package, package-name, ... 2021-03-21T13:21:56Z sauvin_ joined #lisp 2021-03-21T13:24:34Z Lemniscate quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-21T13:28:09Z raeda joined #lisp 2021-03-21T13:32:41Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-21T13:35:43Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-21T13:35:50Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-21T13:38:31Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-21T13:40:08Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-21T13:51:34Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-21T13:52:06Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-21T13:55:09Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-21T13:59:38Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-21T14:05:13Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-21T14:09:20Z retropikzel quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-21T14:14:44Z andrei-n joined #lisp 2021-03-21T14:16:04Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-21T14:18:51Z trn quit (Quit: quit) 2021-03-21T14:22:06Z Helmholtz joined #lisp 2021-03-21T14:28:56Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-21T14:35:16Z renzhi joined #lisp 2021-03-21T14:36:19Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-03-21T14:37:17Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2021-03-21T14:47:30Z long4mud quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-21T14:47:35Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-21T14:48:37Z raeda quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-21T14:49:38Z wsinatra quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-21T14:50:44Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-03-21T14:50:57Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-21T14:55:33Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-21T14:57:41Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2021-03-21T14:59:00Z mokulus joined #lisp 2021-03-21T15:08:55Z aindilis` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-21T15:10:03Z CrazyPython joined #lisp 2021-03-21T15:14:14Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-03-21T15:15:53Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-03-21T15:18:54Z mokulus quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-03-21T15:27:51Z yoseph joined #lisp 2021-03-21T15:30:47Z yoseph quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-21T15:31:41Z moshes joined #lisp 2021-03-21T15:36:43Z CrazyPyt_ joined #lisp 2021-03-21T15:37:08Z CrazyPyt_ quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-21T15:37:25Z CrazyPyt_ joined #lisp 2021-03-21T15:38:11Z ex_nihilo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-21T15:38:49Z CrazyPython quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-21T15:40:06Z moshes left #lisp 2021-03-21T15:40:07Z bjorkintosh quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-21T15:40:46Z Cthulhux quit (Changing host) 2021-03-21T15:40:46Z Cthulhux joined #lisp 2021-03-21T15:43:04Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-21T15:45:02Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-21T15:45:06Z sauvin_ is now known as Lemniscate 2021-03-21T15:48:56Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-21T15:49:39Z andrei-n quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-21T15:55:41Z Inoperable joined #lisp 2021-03-21T15:58:55Z shynoob joined #lisp 2021-03-21T15:59:47Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-21T16:00:36Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-21T16:00:41Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-21T16:00:55Z elflng quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-21T16:01:33Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-21T16:03:30Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-21T16:04:36Z MrtnDk[m]: minion: memo for aartaka: It was peer. 'peer' was the one to reset your connection. MrtnDk[m] is simply testing the memo system. 2021-03-21T16:04:36Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell aartaka when he/she/it next speaks. 2021-03-21T16:05:12Z MrtnDk[m]: minion Thank you. 2021-03-21T16:05:57Z beach: minion: Thank you! 2021-03-21T16:05:57Z minion: you're welcome 2021-03-21T16:07:06Z MrtnDk[m]: minion : Thank you. 2021-03-21T16:07:12Z shynoob: what's the channel name of lisp in general? 2021-03-21T16:07:18Z beach: ##lisp 2021-03-21T16:07:28Z MrtnDk[m]: minion: Thank you. 2021-03-21T16:07:29Z minion: np 2021-03-21T16:07:58Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-21T16:08:23Z shynoob quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-21T16:13:58Z Shinmera: lukego: What were you hoping to use it for? 2021-03-21T16:14:31Z Shinmera: lukego: Nothing I know of provides support for it, so it's rather worthless except for your own internal uses. 2021-03-21T16:15:24Z Shinmera: And for sequences there's the extensible sequences protocol, and the trivial-extensible-sequences wrapper library that have at least some amount of use. 2021-03-21T16:17:20Z ppbitb joined #lisp 2021-03-21T16:17:24Z renzhi quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-21T16:20:31Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-21T16:21:27Z brandonz quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.6) 2021-03-21T16:24:11Z Josh_2: Bit of an odd question but has anyone written a sort of embeddable DSL that takes strings as inputs 2021-03-21T16:24:30Z Josh_2: the use case I have is someone at the top level being able to write something like 2021-03-21T16:24:37Z admich joined #lisp 2021-03-21T16:25:21Z Josh_2: #. 'command1 'command '' something like that the semantics can change obviously 2021-03-21T16:25:50Z Josh_2: command1 would take commands result as an arg 2021-03-21T16:28:00Z Josh_2: I can imagine this is something someone has made, I'm not even sure how to approach a problem like this 2021-03-21T16:31:48Z elusive joined #lisp 2021-03-21T16:33:33Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-21T16:34:33Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-21T16:42:13Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-21T16:44:05Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-03-21T16:44:05Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-21T16:44:13Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-21T16:46:15Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-21T16:46:45Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-21T16:49:13Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-21T16:50:59Z ebrasca quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-21T16:52:06Z semz: You can do this with readtable hackery, especially if DSL parts always start with #. or w/e, but is there any reason you can't just base the DSL on (maybe slightly modified) Lisp syntax? 2021-03-21T16:52:16Z semz: You have the tools for this after all and I'd expect it to be nicer in the long term 2021-03-21T16:52:42Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2021-03-21T16:54:08Z Josh_2: No there is no reason 2021-03-21T16:54:12Z Josh_2: other than general user appeal 2021-03-21T16:54:26Z Josh_2: I love Lisp and see the power of parens but unfortunately many folks are immediately put off :( 2021-03-21T16:56:27Z Josh_2: I think making basic commands like this #.program (def prinarg (arg1) (return arg1)) so you could then do #.program (prinarg foo) -> foo wouldn't be so hard 2021-03-21T16:56:49Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-03-21T16:56:51Z Josh_2: I'd have to provide a bunch of built in functions for list and string manipulation 2021-03-21T16:58:43Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-21T16:59:41Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-21T16:59:48Z luckless joined #lisp 2021-03-21T17:01:45Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-21T17:02:18Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-21T17:03:33Z azimut quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-21T17:03:33Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-21T17:03:48Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-21T17:10:32Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-21T17:10:44Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-21T17:21:56Z epony quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-21T17:22:04Z davisr_ joined #lisp 2021-03-21T17:24:38Z davisr quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-21T17:28:24Z raeda joined #lisp 2021-03-21T17:28:55Z bendersteed joined #lisp 2021-03-21T17:30:03Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-21T17:30:48Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-21T17:30:55Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-21T17:31:25Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2021-03-21T17:31:28Z elflng joined #lisp 2021-03-21T17:34:13Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-21T17:37:05Z davisr_ is now known as davisr 2021-03-21T17:39:38Z patch quit (Quit: Reconnecting) 2021-03-21T17:41:25Z expounded joined #lisp 2021-03-21T17:42:14Z bendersteed quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-03-21T17:42:32Z bendersteed joined #lisp 2021-03-21T17:44:48Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-21T17:54:22Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-21T17:54:41Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-21T17:55:32Z epony joined #lisp 2021-03-21T17:57:48Z sunwukon` joined #lisp 2021-03-21T17:58:27Z sunwukon` quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-21T18:02:01Z sunwukon` joined #lisp 2021-03-21T18:02:01Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-21T18:02:03Z nullman quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-21T18:02:18Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-21T18:07:58Z nullman joined #lisp 2021-03-21T18:08:21Z sunwukong quit (Quit: authenticating) 2021-03-21T18:08:28Z sunwukong joined #lisp 2021-03-21T18:08:51Z sunwukong is now known as Guest32848 2021-03-21T18:09:09Z Guest32848 left #lisp 2021-03-21T18:11:19Z sunwukon` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-03-21T18:11:50Z sunwukon` joined #lisp 2021-03-21T18:15:04Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-21T18:18:37Z CrazyPyt_ quit 2021-03-21T18:20:29Z Xach: marcoxa: i still can't build helambdap 2021-03-21T18:23:18Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-21T18:24:10Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-21T18:28:33Z long4mud joined #lisp 2021-03-21T18:29:22Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-21T18:31:08Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-21T18:31:34Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-21T18:32:06Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-21T18:33:34Z mokulus joined #lisp 2021-03-21T18:33:40Z leb joined #lisp 2021-03-21T18:34:02Z aindilis joined #lisp 2021-03-21T18:36:15Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-21T18:36:30Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-21T18:36:33Z leb quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-21T18:38:46Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-21T18:38:51Z sunwukon` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-03-21T18:39:01Z tiwEllien joined #lisp 2021-03-21T18:39:45Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-21T18:42:53Z sunwukon` joined #lisp 2021-03-21T18:44:30Z sunwukon` is now known as sunwukong 2021-03-21T18:45:33Z sunwukong quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-21T18:51:06Z attila_lendvai_ joined #lisp 2021-03-21T18:55:09Z OlCe joined #lisp 2021-03-21T18:55:39Z motersen joined #lisp 2021-03-21T18:56:10Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-21T18:57:00Z DHARMAKAYA joined #lisp 2021-03-21T18:58:01Z motersen quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-21T18:59:41Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-21T19:01:43Z bendersteed quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-21T19:02:07Z motersen joined #lisp 2021-03-21T19:03:48Z gareppa joined #lisp 2021-03-21T19:05:18Z thmprover joined #lisp 2021-03-21T19:05:35Z gareppa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-21T19:06:25Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-21T19:08:21Z OlCe quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-21T19:11:10Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-21T19:13:42Z mokulus quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-03-21T19:14:15Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-21T19:15:47Z mokulus joined #lisp 2021-03-21T19:21:21Z sunwukong joined #lisp 2021-03-21T19:23:44Z luna_is_here quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-21T19:26:08Z motersen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-21T19:26:21Z luna_is_here joined #lisp 2021-03-21T19:30:03Z aindilis quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-21T19:30:45Z alendvai__ joined #lisp 2021-03-21T19:30:53Z bendersteed joined #lisp 2021-03-21T19:30:57Z aindilis` joined #lisp 2021-03-21T19:31:15Z motersen joined #lisp 2021-03-21T19:32:39Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2021-03-21T19:32:40Z bendersteed quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-21T19:33:11Z attila_lendvai_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-21T19:33:15Z alendvai__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-21T19:33:36Z alendvai__ joined #lisp 2021-03-21T19:33:56Z aindilis` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-21T19:34:32Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-21T19:34:32Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2021-03-21T19:36:54Z matryoshka joined #lisp 2021-03-21T19:40:21Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-21T19:41:16Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-21T19:41:36Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2021-03-21T19:42:49Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-03-21T19:44:04Z matryoshka joined #lisp 2021-03-21T19:44:21Z motersen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-21T19:44:42Z alendvai__ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-21T19:47:50Z luna_is_here quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-21T19:48:11Z luna_is_here joined #lisp 2021-03-21T19:51:38Z mokulus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-21T19:52:55Z mokulus joined #lisp 2021-03-21T19:53:45Z motersen joined #lisp 2021-03-21T19:54:08Z asarch joined #lisp 2021-03-21T19:55:44Z mokulus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-21T19:58:30Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-21T19:59:19Z mokulus joined #lisp 2021-03-21T20:03:28Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-21T20:03:47Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-21T20:14:30Z prxq_ quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-03-21T20:14:32Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-21T20:14:46Z prxq joined #lisp 2021-03-21T20:17:42Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-21T20:18:56Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-21T20:20:44Z attila_lendvai_ joined #lisp 2021-03-21T20:21:26Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-21T20:21:47Z mokulus quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-03-21T20:25:38Z admich quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-03-21T20:32:21Z recalloc_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-21T20:35:21Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-21T20:37:24Z shka_: hi all 2021-03-21T20:37:42Z shka_: can someone bother to run test suite of the scribble for me? 2021-03-21T20:43:44Z asarch quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-21T20:44:26Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-21T20:47:58Z alanz: shka_, you mean like this: https://gist.github.com/alanz/2cbc8450ba20efd6b61f59beea3cc98b 2021-03-21T20:48:14Z alanz: is cl scribble like the racket scribble? 2021-03-21T20:51:13Z shka_: yes 2021-03-21T20:51:25Z shka_: alanz: thanks 2021-03-21T20:51:42Z shka_: i was trying to figure out if it is faling just for me 2021-03-21T20:51:47Z alanz answer my own question: yes, see https://cliki.net/Scribble 2021-03-21T20:51:58Z narimiran quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-21T20:52:16Z jmercouris: hi is anyone able to quickload parenscript in ECL? 2021-03-21T20:52:24Z Klopsch joined #lisp 2021-03-21T20:52:39Z jmercouris: here is what happens for me: http://dpaste.com/GV7Y6K4HX 2021-03-21T20:53:02Z alanz: shka_, no problem 2021-03-21T20:53:42Z shka_: issue created 2021-03-21T20:53:56Z alanz: FYI my gist is on sbcl 2021-03-21T20:55:29Z shka_: yeah, i assumed that 2021-03-21T20:56:03Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-03-21T20:56:03Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2021-03-21T20:56:03Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-03-21T20:56:48Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-21T20:57:44Z attila_lendvai_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-21T20:59:44Z tiwEllien quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-21T21:02:05Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-21T21:04:17Z theothor` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-21T21:07:01Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-21T21:08:12Z matryoshka joined #lisp 2021-03-21T21:12:41Z motersen quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 27.1) 2021-03-21T21:16:10Z jmercouris: nobody? 2021-03-21T21:17:26Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-21T21:18:51Z alanz: jmercouris, it loads for me in sbcl, but that's not the question 2021-03-21T21:19:02Z jmercouris: that's correct, it loads for me in SBCL as well :-) 2021-03-21T21:19:26Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-03-21T21:21:05Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-21T21:22:09Z recalloc joined #lisp 2021-03-21T21:25:18Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-21T21:25:50Z shka_: alanz: it seems to be because of that buffered input stuff 2021-03-21T21:26:41Z alanz: shka_, no idea, I just ran the test for you. And was happy to see that scribble exists. I am still learning the ecosystem 2021-03-21T21:27:35Z shka_: well, i just managed to 'fix' it by removing the buffering 2021-03-21T21:27:50Z shka_: i will add this to the issue i've just created 2021-03-21T21:27:56Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-21T21:28:02Z shka_: at least i can generate my documentation now 2021-03-21T21:28:21Z alanz: nice 2021-03-21T21:28:58Z Noisytoot is now known as LPBot_ 2021-03-21T21:29:53Z LPBot_ is now known as Noisytoot 2021-03-21T21:30:10Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-21T21:30:22Z h4ck3r96` joined #lisp 2021-03-21T21:30:44Z theothor` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-21T21:32:35Z gabc: Hi I'm trying to load cl-sqlite on windows with sbcl and I have an error telling me that it can't find the sqlite libraries. I do now know where the libraries are looked for to put it there, any ideas? 2021-03-21T21:34:20Z shka_: well, windows... 2021-03-21T21:34:39Z gabc: Yeah well, I know but that's what I have 2021-03-21T21:35:13Z shka_: right 2021-03-21T21:36:34Z shka_: gabc: check this https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/_002aforeign_002dlibrary_002ddirectories_002a.html 2021-03-21T21:36:51Z gabc: oooh nice 2021-03-21T21:37:07Z shka_: check if that helps you with that dll 2021-03-21T21:37:19Z gabc: I'll check it out thanks :) 2021-03-21T21:37:30Z shka_: have fun 2021-03-21T21:37:48Z h4ck3r96` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-21T21:39:42Z gabc: shka_: that works! thanks :) 2021-03-21T21:39:58Z shka_: hth 2021-03-21T21:45:33Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-21T21:45:36Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-21T21:47:32Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-21T21:48:03Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-21T21:50:53Z PuercoPop joined #lisp 2021-03-21T21:51:04Z PuercoPop quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-21T21:51:21Z PuercoPop joined #lisp 2021-03-21T21:55:21Z scymtym joined #lisp 2021-03-21T21:58:34Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-21T22:00:53Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-21T22:05:51Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-21T22:06:30Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-21T22:07:39Z sunwukong quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-21T22:10:29Z shka_: well, i found the core problem with the scribble 2021-03-21T22:12:30Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-21T22:12:42Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-21T22:14:02Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-03-21T22:14:58Z shka_: and this seems to be a bug in SBCL 2021-03-21T22:16:59Z cchristiansen joined #lisp 2021-03-21T22:20:09Z shka_: yup, it is 2021-03-21T22:20:46Z dhil quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-21T22:20:47Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-21T22:22:45Z marcoxa quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-21T22:24:12Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-03-21T22:24:33Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-21T22:26:07Z OlCe joined #lisp 2021-03-21T22:40:22Z shka_: alanz: you there? 2021-03-21T22:41:21Z alanz: shka_, yes 2021-03-21T22:43:18Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-03-21T22:44:07Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-03-21T22:47:24Z matryoshka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-21T22:47:34Z recalloc quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-21T22:47:58Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-21T22:50:38Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-03-21T22:53:05Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-21T22:53:29Z MrtnDk[m]: _death I can't seem to quick load logo2. Which version of slime is required? 2021-03-21T23:01:50Z matijja quit (Quit: bye) 2021-03-21T23:02:47Z MrtnDk[m]: How do I get (ql:quickload "snippets/logo2") to work in slime? 2021-03-21T23:03:11Z matijja joined #lisp 2021-03-21T23:03:56Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 28.0.50)) 2021-03-21T23:05:14Z rgherdt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-21T23:05:41Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2021-03-21T23:06:55Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-21T23:09:31Z VincentVega joined #lisp 2021-03-21T23:09:37Z OlCe quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-21T23:09:56Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-21T23:10:55Z OlCe joined #lisp 2021-03-21T23:11:59Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-21T23:16:36Z scymtym quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-21T23:17:46Z scymtym joined #lisp 2021-03-21T23:17:53Z Xach: What is logo2? 2021-03-21T23:23:15Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-21T23:26:32Z OlCe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-21T23:26:33Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-21T23:38:27Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-21T23:52:57Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-21T23:54:30Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-21T23:56:24Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-21T23:57:03Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-21T23:57:29Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-22T00:04:46Z sukaeto1 is now known as sukaeto 2021-03-22T00:12:01Z pillton joined #lisp 2021-03-22T00:12:13Z pillton: jasom: Do you plan on making nyaml a streaming parser? 2021-03-22T00:23:01Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T00:42:32Z scymtym quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-22T00:43:19Z scymtym joined #lisp 2021-03-22T00:44:10Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-22T00:44:31Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-22T00:46:18Z matryoshka joined #lisp 2021-03-22T00:52:18Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-22T00:53:33Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-22T00:53:44Z _jrjsmrtn joined #lisp 2021-03-22T00:56:18Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-22T00:56:30Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-22T01:06:33Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-22T01:10:44Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-22T01:11:23Z marusich quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-22T01:19:00Z wxie joined #lisp 2021-03-22T01:23:39Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-22T01:27:21Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-22T01:29:28Z wxie joined #lisp 2021-03-22T01:40:14Z elderK joined #lisp 2021-03-22T01:43:13Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T01:43:20Z expounded quit (Quit: Reconnecting) 2021-03-22T01:43:59Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-22T01:44:24Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-22T01:45:18Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-03-22T01:49:04Z sthousand joined #lisp 2021-03-22T01:49:35Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2021-03-22T01:50:02Z sthousand quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T01:52:02Z cantstanya quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-22T01:52:33Z MrtnDk[m]: Xach https://adeht.org/dump/vid-2021-03-20T2217.mp4 2021-03-22T01:54:06Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-22T01:55:26Z cantstanya joined #lisp 2021-03-22T01:55:36Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-03-22T01:57:15Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-22T02:06:26Z sinherita joined #lisp 2021-03-22T02:10:06Z notzmv: quick question, how do I select a restart numbered from 10 on up? 2021-03-22T02:13:51Z sinherita quit (Changing host) 2021-03-22T02:13:51Z sinherita joined #lisp 2021-03-22T02:15:31Z sinherita quit (Quit: Reconnecting) 2021-03-22T02:16:10Z glycerol joined #lisp 2021-03-22T02:21:44Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-22T02:21:57Z glycerol quit (Changing host) 2021-03-22T02:21:57Z glycerol joined #lisp 2021-03-22T02:23:42Z glycerol quit (Quit: Reconnecting) 2021-03-22T02:24:17Z fridge joined #lisp 2021-03-22T02:25:47Z fridge quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T02:26:24Z ark joined #lisp 2021-03-22T02:30:18Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-22T02:35:23Z breakups joined #lisp 2021-03-22T02:35:59Z breakups quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T02:39:35Z unfamiliaritys joined #lisp 2021-03-22T02:39:55Z unfamiliaritys quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T02:46:25Z tires joined #lisp 2021-03-22T02:48:05Z tires quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T02:50:51Z PuercoPop quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8) 2021-03-22T02:51:13Z MrtnDk[m]: notzmv From ten to what? 30? (iota 30 :start 10) 2021-03-22T02:52:31Z landlubbers joined #lisp 2021-03-22T02:52:32Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-22T02:54:09Z perrier-jouet quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-03-22T02:55:27Z perrier-jouet joined #lisp 2021-03-22T02:55:56Z notzmv: I had an interrupt and the restart I wanted to select on SBCL was the 11, but it went to the 1 directly 2021-03-22T02:56:17Z perrier-jouet quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-22T02:57:33Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-22T02:58:27Z landlubbers quit (Changing host) 2021-03-22T02:58:28Z landlubbers joined #lisp 2021-03-22T03:01:23Z landlubbers quit (Quit: Reconnecting) 2021-03-22T03:04:18Z Nilby: notzmv: If you're in SLIME I think you can put the cursor on the restart and press enter, or you can press 'I' and pick the restart name with completion in the minibuffer. 2021-03-22T03:05:02Z impinge joined #lisp 2021-03-22T03:05:18Z semz joined #lisp 2021-03-22T03:05:18Z semz quit (Changing host) 2021-03-22T03:05:18Z semz joined #lisp 2021-03-22T03:07:13Z igemnace joined #lisp 2021-03-22T03:07:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm trying to figure out how to copy a generic sequence into a freshly allocated vector 2021-03-22T03:07:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: is (map 'vector 'identity seq) guaranteed to copy? (I assume so, because MAP can't really make assumptions about the function passed) 2021-03-22T03:09:20Z impinge quit (Quit: Reconnecting) 2021-03-22T03:10:14Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2021-03-22T03:11:52Z typeset joined #lisp 2021-03-22T03:12:12Z ppbitb left #lisp 2021-03-22T03:12:16Z Nilby: fiddlerwoaroof: That makes a new vector, but the objects are likely eq. 2021-03-22T03:12:26Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-03-22T03:12:58Z elusive quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-22T03:13:25Z typeset quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-22T03:14:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: That's fine with me, I'm just trying to write a simple shuffle that doesn't modify the input sequence 2021-03-22T03:15:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: My favorite thing about LOOP is that it's basically the psuedocode people write algorithms in 2021-03-22T03:15:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: Here's Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisher–Yates_shuffle#The_modern_algorithm 2021-03-22T03:15:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: Here's the algorithm translated to LOOP: https://fwoar.co/pastebin/70e2d5427962a2015f33ef1484b5dff91bb3e7f4.lisp.html 2021-03-22T03:16:08Z moon-child: weird they use an en dash 2021-03-22T03:16:22Z moon-child: that's supposed to only be for numeric ranges afaik 2021-03-22T03:17:17Z methodically joined #lisp 2021-03-22T03:17:26Z Nilby: Nice. It's like direct translation. 2021-03-22T03:18:08Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-22T03:18:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I had this experience a while ago when I was doing an algorithms course on Coursera 2021-03-22T03:18:38Z abhixec quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-22T03:18:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: I could basically copy the pseudocode and tweak it a bit and the result read more or less like the code in the text 2021-03-22T03:18:55Z methodically quit (Changing host) 2021-03-22T03:18:55Z methodically joined #lisp 2021-03-22T03:19:23Z methodically quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T03:20:55Z Nilby: I wonder if pseudocode like that was taken from a lisp version. the "downto" is 2021-03-22T03:21:02Z Nilby: distinctive 2021-03-22T03:21:27Z Santos_ joined #lisp 2021-03-22T03:21:41Z Santos_ quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-22T03:22:33Z Nilby: I guess a "such that" in loop would be confusing. 2021-03-22T03:23:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: Anyways, I realized once I parallelized my raytracer that randomizing the order in which I streamed the lines to the browser would give me a better sense of the whole picture more quickly 2021-03-22T03:24:10Z Nilby: Nice. I like those raytracers where you can scribble where you want it work more :) 2021-03-22T03:27:42Z prxq_ joined #lisp 2021-03-22T03:27:47Z cottonmouths joined #lisp 2021-03-22T03:28:03Z Nilby: fiddlerwoaroof: I assume you know about alexandria:shuffle, optimizations of which were discussed here last week 2021-03-22T03:28:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: Nilby: I do now :) 2021-03-22T03:28:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: Fisher-yates is so simple, though 2021-03-22T03:29:45Z cottonmouths quit (Quit: Reconnecting) 2021-03-22T03:30:35Z thmprover quit (Quit: [Exit, pursued by bear]) 2021-03-22T03:31:20Z prxq quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-22T03:31:59Z jcowan joined #lisp 2021-03-22T03:32:41Z jcowan: Does anyone understand why #.(values) returns nil rather than disappearing from the file being read? That would seem to be more useful. 2021-03-22T03:36:50Z Nilby: I think it does disappear. Perhaps you're using it in place that defaults to nil? 2021-03-22T03:37:43Z jcowan: Typing #.(values) to the REPL returns NIL. 2021-03-22T03:38:05Z raeda: '(a b #.(values) c) => (A B C) in the SBCL REPL, as expected 2021-03-22T03:38:06Z minion: raeda, memo from fiddlerwoaroof: there's also #abcl which isn't very active, but is more dedicated to developing ABCL 2021-03-22T03:38:06Z Nilby: Not for me :( 2021-03-22T03:38:56Z jcowan: Okay, it's just a bug in CLISP 2021-03-22T03:38:57Z Nilby: What REPL and implementation are you using? 2021-03-22T03:39:08Z jcowan: I confirm it works in sbcl. 2021-03-22T03:39:39Z Nilby: Ahh.. Yes. And probably just in the REPL not in code. 2021-03-22T03:40:19Z Nilby: The CLISP repl has a few "quirks". 2021-03-22T03:41:06Z aquaria joined #lisp 2021-03-22T03:41:10Z jcowan: You can kind of see why: it thinks #. expects one value, and since there are none, it returns NIL. #.(values 1 2) however evaluates to 1. 2021-03-22T03:41:56Z vutral_ joined #lisp 2021-03-22T03:42:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: It works like '(a b #.(values) c) => (A B C) in lispworks too 2021-03-22T03:42:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: There's a nil in the output in ECL 2021-03-22T03:43:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: no nil in CCL 2021-03-22T03:43:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: no nil in abcl 2021-03-22T03:43:56Z aquaria quit (Quit: Reconnecting) 2021-03-22T03:44:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, it sounds like clisp/ecl produce '(A B NIL C) and all the others '(A B C) 2021-03-22T03:44:20Z jcowan: The CLHS seems to be open. "#.foo is read as the object resulting from the evaluation of the object represented by foo" implies there is exactly one object, so what happens if there are no objects returned is unspecified. 2021-03-22T03:44:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: (I don't have allegro, though) 2021-03-22T03:44:40Z jcowan: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/02_dhf.htm 2021-03-22T03:44:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think every expression in lisp evaluates to some value, though 2021-03-22T03:45:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs values 2021-03-22T03:45:47Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_values.htm 2021-03-22T03:46:05Z jcowan: If it returns no values, though, whether it becomes nil depends on the surrounding context. 2021-03-22T03:47:07Z swraparou joined #lisp 2021-03-22T03:47:52Z swraparou quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-22T03:47:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: "primary value n. (of values resulting from the evaluation of a form) the first value, if any, or else nil if there are no values. " 2021-03-22T03:47:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: From the glossary 2021-03-22T03:48:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: so (values) evaluates to NIL, by definition 2021-03-22T03:48:23Z jcowan: So you think that sbcl is wrong? 2021-03-22T03:48:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think so, #.foo should be replaced by the result of evaluating foo 2021-03-22T03:49:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: Which is NIL 2021-03-22T03:49:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: (eq (eval '(values)) nil) => NIL 2021-03-22T03:49:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: Sorry => T 2021-03-22T03:50:15Z jcowan: It's clear that the coercion from no values to nil happens when the expression is a function argument. 2021-03-22T03:50:53Z jcowan: IMO it is more useful to make it disappear from the reader. 2021-03-22T03:51:54Z Nilby: This is weirding me out. clisp is technically correct and sbcl is wrong? 2021-03-22T03:54:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: I guess it's not strictly true that every form produces a value (go tag) doesn't, for example 2021-03-22T03:54:21Z entrances joined #lisp 2021-03-22T03:54:36Z Alfr: clhs 3.1.7 2021-03-22T03:54:36Z specbot: Return Values: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_ag.htm 2021-03-22T03:54:42Z entrances quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T03:57:38Z Alloc joined #lisp 2021-03-22T03:58:07Z aindilis joined #lisp 2021-03-22T03:58:23Z Nilby: go doesn't return, so it doens't return a value, but 3.1.7 is pretty specific "if the form produces zero values, then the caller receives nil as a value." 2021-03-22T04:00:03Z paeans_ joined #lisp 2021-03-22T04:00:49Z sauvin_ joined #lisp 2021-03-22T04:00:58Z Nilby: and in 2.4.8.6 is says: "#.foo is read as the object resulting from the evaluation of the object represented by foo." 2021-03-22T04:01:09Z Nilby: so I guess old clisp is right. 2021-03-22T04:01:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: The question is, though, is READ the caller? 2021-03-22T04:02:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: There's a little bit of ambiguity in the phrasing "resulting from the evaluation of the object" 2021-03-22T04:02:39Z paeans_ quit (Changing host) 2021-03-22T04:02:39Z paeans_ joined #lisp 2021-03-22T04:03:05Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2021-03-22T04:03:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: hi beach ! 2021-03-22T04:03:29Z Nilby: Good morning. 2021-03-22T04:03:37Z Alfr: Hello beach. 2021-03-22T04:03:38Z Lemniscate quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-22T04:03:50Z raeda: I would say READ is the caller of read time expressions 2021-03-22T04:04:23Z sauvin_ is now known as Lemniscate 2021-03-22T04:05:05Z jcowan: I think there used to be a facility in MacLisp that let you splice things into an S-expression for read purposes. 2021-03-22T04:05:15Z paeans_ quit (Quit: Reconnecting) 2021-03-22T04:06:06Z asarch joined #lisp 2021-03-22T04:06:24Z asarch: One stupid question: can a structure be inheritable? 2021-03-22T04:06:43Z asarch: Just like the way a class is 2021-03-22T04:07:11Z artlessness joined #lisp 2021-03-22T04:07:33Z artlessness quit (Changing host) 2021-03-22T04:07:33Z artlessness joined #lisp 2021-03-22T04:08:07Z beach: clhs defstruct 2021-03-22T04:08:07Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defstr.htm 2021-03-22T04:08:41Z beach: asarch: See the INCLUDE-OPTION. 2021-03-22T04:09:17Z artlessness quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-22T04:10:09Z asarch: Thank you! 2021-03-22T04:10:14Z asarch: Thank you very much beach! 2021-03-22T04:11:58Z jcowan: Ah, yes. CLtL1/2 says "The function may choose instead to return zero values (for example, by using (values) as the return expression). In this case, the macro character and whatever it may have read contribute nothing to the object being read." 2021-03-22T04:12:12Z sGoldwate joined #lisp 2021-03-22T04:12:39Z sGoldwate quit (Changing host) 2021-03-22T04:12:39Z sGoldwate joined #lisp 2021-03-22T04:13:01Z jcowan: This is used by an example definition for ;, which has to eat the comment and return nothing. 2021-03-22T04:13:31Z sGoldwate quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-22T04:14:11Z Nilby: jcowan: Nice find. So sbcl does it the cltl2 way, which makes sense given it's pre-CL pedigree. 2021-03-22T04:14:58Z jcowan: Does cmucl go back before ANSI too? 2021-03-22T04:15:10Z Nilby: Yes, from spice lisp. 2021-03-22T04:15:11Z jcowan: if so, that would explain why sbcl does it that way 2021-03-22T04:15:14Z beach: I think they all do. 2021-03-22T04:15:18Z flippancy joined #lisp 2021-03-22T04:15:23Z asarch: Another stupid question: so what's the point of CLOS if defstruct could easily provide the same functionality (or ever better since it doesn't "contaminate" the name space with lots of functions made by :accessors)? 2021-03-22T04:15:27Z flippancy quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-22T04:15:42Z jcowan: Flexibility 2021-03-22T04:15:43Z beach: jcowan: And that's the reason there is so much innovation to be done. :) 2021-03-22T04:15:59Z jcowan: "The ability to return either zero or one value is the closest Common Lisp macro characters come to the splicing macro characters of MacLisp or the splice macro characters of Interlisp. The Common Lisp definition does not allow the splicing of arbitrarily many values, but it does allow a macro-character function to decide after it is invoked whether or not to yield a value, an option not possible in MacLisp or Interlisp." 2021-03-22T04:16:33Z notzmv: Nilby: I'm using sly, but thanks anyway, I think that might work as well. in any case I've already fixed the underlying problem so it's a bit moot for now haha 2021-03-22T04:16:43Z beach: asarch: DEFSTRUCT is very limited. No multiple inheritance for instance. Plus, without CLOS you would not have generic functions. 2021-03-22T04:16:53Z jcowan: (same place, CLtL2 22.1.5 2021-03-22T04:16:54Z jcowan: ) 2021-03-22T04:17:23Z beach: asarch: And DEFSTRUCT does not specify the semantics of redefinition, which is why I never use it. 2021-03-22T04:17:43Z asarch: "Semantics of redefinition"? 2021-03-22T04:18:36Z jcowan: asarch: The effect of redefining a struct type is unspecified 2021-03-22T04:18:37Z beach: asarch: You have an executing Common Lisp image. You load a DEFSTRUCT form, you work a bit, then you decide it wasn't right, so you add or remove something and you load it again. Now you have undefined behavior. Not so with DEFCLASS. 2021-03-22T04:19:04Z asarch: If I do: (defclass taco () ((quantity))) isn't the same as (defstruct taco quantity)? 2021-03-22T04:19:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: No, redefining taco invokes the instance update protocol 2021-03-22T04:19:25Z beach: asarch: DEFCLASS has specified semantics when you redefine it. 2021-03-22T04:19:36Z jcowan: No: structure types are not the same as class types (or built-in types) 2021-03-22T04:20:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is the sequence (defstruct foo ...) (unintern 'foo) (defstruct foo ...) specified? 2021-03-22T04:20:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: i.e. does it result in undefined behavior? 2021-03-22T04:20:12Z beach: asarch: That's why Common Lisp is a "dynamic language" or an "interactive language". You can redefine things after the fact. 2021-03-22T04:20:46Z beach: asarch: DEFSTRUCT ruins that completely, because the implementation can then do anything it sees fit. 2021-03-22T04:20:47Z asarch: And for the class taco I could easily: (defun quantity ((instance taco)) ...) and (defun (setf quantity) ((instance taco) val) ...) 2021-03-22T04:20:53Z Alloc quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-22T04:21:21Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-22T04:21:53Z jcowan: It gives you a tradeoff between efficient but inflexible types and less efficient but highly flexible types. 2021-03-22T04:22:27Z beach: asarch: What does that mean? Did you mean defmethod? 2021-03-22T04:22:44Z beach: asarch: If so, you are using a feature introduced by CLOS. 2021-03-22T04:23:37Z monotheistic joined #lisp 2021-03-22T04:23:40Z monotheistic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T04:24:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: The thing that took me a while to realize is that CLOS is basically Java-style OOP turned inside-out 2021-03-22T04:24:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: Instead of the emphasis being on classes, the emphasis is on the operations 2021-03-22T04:24:58Z beach: That's an "interesting" way of describing it. 2021-03-22T04:25:18Z aeth: asarch: Structures are for low-level efficient stuff. They have many downsides to allow implementations to optimize them. If you're not writing C in CL, then you probably don't need them. And you have it backwards. Structures contaminate the namespace with lots of functions because they're not generic functions. Defclass creates generic accessors so e.g. there's only one NAME, not a dozen FOO-NAMEs 2021-03-22T04:25:24Z beach: I think of it as object-oriented programming done right. 2021-03-22T04:25:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: Reading AMOP really made this clear: they don't describe CLOS by talking about the classes but by talking about hte protocols the classes implement 2021-03-22T04:25:51Z jcowan: "Generic functions are the good parts of OO." 2021-03-22T04:26:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: beach: I agree, but it took a while for me to relate CLOS to what I already knew 2021-03-22T04:26:15Z beach: Ah, yes, I see. 2021-03-22T04:26:56Z jcowan: the Smalltalk ANSI standard also talks about protocols (which do not exist in the language) that you must implement rather than classes you must implement (the exceptions being Object and Exception) 2021-03-22T04:27:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think something got lost when the industry adopted OOP 2021-03-22T04:27:58Z jcowan: Rather, when it adopted dumbed-down OOP 2021-03-22T04:28:34Z asarch: (defstruct taco quantity) and then (setf (taco-quantity my-dish) 10) 2021-03-22T04:28:53Z raeda_ joined #lisp 2021-03-22T04:28:57Z beach: asarch: What is your point? 2021-03-22T04:29:00Z raeda quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T04:29:01Z asarch: I mean, what if you don't to change things 2021-03-22T04:29:15Z asarch: Like my HTML form generator, for example 2021-03-22T04:29:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: jcowan: I think single-dispatch object systems tend to lead to a mental model where classes "own" methods, though 2021-03-22T04:29:46Z beach: asarch: If you don't change things, you must be a wizard developer. Unique in fact. 2021-03-22T04:29:52Z asarch: Just a way to keep things together (class, name, label, etc properties of the HTML element) 2021-03-22T04:30:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: Alan Kay always said the point is messages, but it never seemed to really get through to people 2021-03-22T04:30:29Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: I totally agree, and he has explained it more later. 2021-03-22T04:30:51Z beach: In fact, he imagined distributed computing, with messages being sent across a network. 2021-03-22T04:31:31Z jcowan: I think it's unfortunate that defmethod implies defgeneric 2021-03-22T04:31:35Z asarch: CLOS doesn't send messages, right? 2021-03-22T04:31:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: I also think single-dispatch has the issue where there's a "special" function argument for no particularly good reason: if a function can dispatch on the "this" argument, why not all the others? 2021-03-22T04:31:44Z beach: asarch: Correct. 2021-03-22T04:31:47Z asarch: It uses generic dispatch instead 2021-03-22T04:32:05Z beach: jcowan: Absolutely. We have changed the way we view "convenient defaults" over the decades. 2021-03-22T04:32:58Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: It does make sense if you need to send a message to an object on a remote computer, though. 2021-03-22T04:33:26Z Minsk joined #lisp 2021-03-22T04:33:33Z beach: Of course, once class-based object orientation was adopted by Java, there was no reason to keep it. 2021-03-22T04:33:39Z jcowan: Eh. I think hiding the distinction between remote and local method calls is a mistake: there are so many more failure modes. 2021-03-22T04:33:49Z Minsk quit (Quit: Reconnecting) 2021-03-22T04:34:39Z beach: Well, I get the hives whenever there is talk about remote anything, because I don't understand how preserving identity and garbage collection could work then. 2021-03-22T04:35:03Z Nilby: If you use CLX you're basically doing RPC. 2021-03-22T04:35:20Z beach: Yes, and that's already problematic. 2021-03-22T04:35:38Z beach: You have to delete your windows and graphics contexts for instance. 2021-03-22T04:36:23Z Nilby: Actually you don't, and turns out there's a gc-like part of the X server. 2021-03-22T04:36:41Z zooey quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-22T04:36:49Z beach: Great, so it knows when the application is holding on to such an object? 2021-03-22T04:36:54Z Nilby: But, it's not done right, so it's not very flexible. 2021-03-22T04:37:05Z zooey joined #lisp 2021-03-22T04:37:11Z Nilby: Yes, or at least sometimes. 2021-03-22T04:37:43Z beach: That is truly amazing. That means that the X server must know about the heap structure of every Common Lisp implementation. 2021-03-22T04:38:51Z Nilby: Not exactly. You just get errors when things go away, but it does keep something of a mirror of the object structure. 2021-03-22T04:38:52Z sequestri joined #lisp 2021-03-22T04:39:59Z sequestri quit (Quit: Reconnecting) 2021-03-22T04:40:09Z Nilby: The gc-like part could also be considered conservative. It only cleans up under certain circumstances. 2021-03-22T04:42:01Z Nilby: But interestingly I think there was some thought about both sides being Lisp. It was just less feasible in those days. 2021-03-22T04:43:02Z beach: That would be a good thing. The Xorg server on this computer definitely has memory leaks. An X server in Common Lisp would be a good thing. 2021-03-22T04:43:16Z Nilby: I quite agree. 2021-03-22T04:43:54Z beach: Now who was it that started such a thing (called clxs)? Was it gilberth? 2021-03-22T04:43:56Z yconsulta joined #lisp 2021-03-22T04:43:58Z Nilby: If emacs was CL the whole SLIME/SWANK thing is like RPC too. 2021-03-22T04:44:39Z beach: Yes, and I am working (though not very hard at the moment) to get rid of that. 2021-03-22T04:44:41Z raeda_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-22T04:45:59Z Nilby: Same. It's pretty long work. 2021-03-22T04:46:31Z beach: It's just that I am busy with other things. But there might be some recent hope... 2021-03-22T04:47:09Z beach: It is not terribly complicated. I imagine SWANK/SLIME is way more complicated because of the need to encode everything on a wire protocol. 2021-03-22T04:47:12Z Nilby: Oh really. Activity in Climacs? 2021-03-22T04:47:57Z beach: On Second Climacs, yes. 2021-03-22T04:49:17Z Nilby: Sadly I think the complexity in SWANK is there even without the RPC. 2021-03-22T04:49:54Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-22T04:50:22Z Nilby: Not to mention the parts that have been build into the implementations. 2021-03-22T04:50:22Z beach: Nilby: Oh? Why is that? 2021-03-22T04:51:50Z Nilby: Things like determining where some function/form/snippet really live in editing buffers, debugger breakpoints and stepping, etc. 2021-03-22T04:53:15Z beach: I think this is public, since scymtym gave the link in #sicl: https://techfak.de/~jmoringe/second-climacs-1.ogv 2021-03-22T04:53:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: beach: I really wonder what the "multiple dispatch" version of distributed computing is 2021-03-22T04:54:04Z yconsulta quit (Quit: Reconnecting) 2021-03-22T04:54:06Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: Yes, it makes my head hurt to think about it. Hence my reaction to "remote anything". 2021-03-22T04:54:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: Like, I wish I could define a "generic function" and have the compiler decide what to run on which machine 2021-03-22T04:54:30Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-22T04:55:00Z beach: Nilby: I see, yes. Part of the issue is the implementation of source tracking in the Common Lisp system. 2021-03-22T04:55:04Z Nilby: beach: Nice. That does look like some improvements! 2021-03-22T04:55:28Z beach: Nilby: It is a start. 2021-03-22T04:55:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: There is already a programming system that is designed around the idea of "programming for the network": https://ballerina.io 2021-03-22T04:55:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, it looks mostly like a typical new language, feature-wise 2021-03-22T04:56:43Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-22T04:57:56Z sincandes joined #lisp 2021-03-22T04:58:14Z sincandes quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T04:58:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've been working on distributed systems of one form or another for the last several years, and I'm still dislike that we don't have any way to program the system as a whole, including things like allocating tasks to nodes. 2021-03-22T04:58:48Z beach: Nilby: The other main stumbling block (other than the fact that I am busy with SICL) to significant progress on Second Climacs is that I need to figure out a way to represent indentation rules, now that we have much better knowledge of the role of different expressions in the buffer. 2021-03-22T04:58:50Z stylewarning: What's the simplest way to check that a symbol S is of a package named P? Anything simpler than (string= P (package-name (symbol-package S))) ? 2021-03-22T04:59:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: Instead we have programs that run on each node and then things like Kubernetes manifests that describe how to run your program 2021-03-22T04:59:34Z beach: (eq (symbol-package S) (find-package P)) 2021-03-22T05:00:00Z stylewarning: beach: that sounds better; thanks 2021-03-22T05:00:08Z beach: Sure. 2021-03-22T05:00:25Z stylewarning: (I don't know why I had my doubts that the packages wouldn't be EQ) 2021-03-22T05:00:45Z beach: Moi non plus. 2021-03-22T05:01:37Z Nilby: beach: That's certainly something that could use work. I'm not sure if any software anywere (maybe except Zmacs) does indentation right. 2021-03-22T05:02:13Z beach: Exactly. I kind of know what to do, but so far my attempts have resulted in lots of code duplication. 2021-03-22T05:02:15Z levity joined #lisp 2021-03-22T05:02:22Z levity quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-22T05:04:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: For Javascript, I've been using a tool called prettier that basically parses your source code and then pretty prints it every time you save the buffer. 2021-03-22T05:04:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: It'd be really nice to have something like that for CL 2021-03-22T05:05:03Z beach: Sort of. Comments need to be preserved though. 2021-03-22T05:06:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, prettier only changes whitespace, basically (and incidental punctuation like translating " -> ' and adding semicolons) 2021-03-22T05:06:18Z beach: The "parse result" feature of Eclector does that, so it's not a problem. But pretty-printing is too primitive. I don't see myself having an opinion on whether the programmers wants to insert newlines or not, for instance. So that needs to be preserved as well. 2021-03-22T05:06:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, I've found that the biggest advantage is that I can just type my code out in a line and it'll look nice after I save i 2021-03-22T05:06:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: it 2021-03-22T05:07:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, things like adding new lines and spacing actually turn to be really useful 2021-03-22T05:07:23Z beach: But, yeah, my "solution" is similar in that it would compute the indentation, given that comments and newlines are preserved, and then indicate the result to the programmer. 2021-03-22T05:07:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: Also, having a policy for those things helps minimize accidental diffs in version control 2021-03-22T05:07:44Z beach: Adding such a feature would then be almost trivial. 2021-03-22T05:08:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: The tool would be useful if only to correct peoples pastebin code when they ask for help :) 2021-03-22T05:08:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: You could have an IRC bot that automatically reformats pastes and then tells people to learn how to format their code 2021-03-22T05:10:58Z skips joined #lisp 2021-03-22T05:12:33Z skips quit (Quit: Reconnecting) 2021-03-22T05:12:55Z cchristiansen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T05:12:58Z sternum joined #lisp 2021-03-22T05:15:09Z beach: Heh, good point! 2021-03-22T05:16:56Z sternum quit (Changing host) 2021-03-22T05:16:56Z sternum joined #lisp 2021-03-22T05:18:34Z sternum quit (Quit: Reconnecting) 2021-03-22T05:19:32Z unfrocking joined #lisp 2021-03-22T05:20:33Z unfrocking quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T05:21:38Z minis joined #lisp 2021-03-22T05:22:05Z minis quit (Changing host) 2021-03-22T05:22:05Z minis joined #lisp 2021-03-22T05:22:49Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-22T05:24:36Z minis quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-22T05:30:22Z abhixec joined #lisp 2021-03-22T05:31:03Z wormhole_ joined #lisp 2021-03-22T05:35:44Z wormhole_ quit (Quit: Reconnecting) 2021-03-22T05:35:44Z kslt1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-22T05:37:56Z positives joined #lisp 2021-03-22T05:39:53Z positives quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-22T05:44:21Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-22T05:44:28Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-03-22T05:45:22Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-03-22T05:45:37Z respected joined #lisp 2021-03-22T05:48:00Z respected quit (Quit: Reconnecting) 2021-03-22T05:53:21Z cchristiansen joined #lisp 2021-03-22T05:54:23Z sapplicat joined #lisp 2021-03-22T05:55:00Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-22T05:55:07Z sapplicat quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-22T05:56:55Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-03-22T06:00:39Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-03-22T06:00:43Z asarch joined #lisp 2021-03-22T06:00:57Z asarch: "All classes defined by means of defstruct are instances of the class structure-class." <- ! 2021-03-22T06:01:11Z beach: So? 2021-03-22T06:01:14Z asarch: So, structures are *also* classes? 2021-03-22T06:01:26Z beach: Every Common Lisp object is an instance of a class. 2021-03-22T06:01:32Z beach: Try (class-of 234) 2021-03-22T06:02:13Z asarch: # 2021-03-22T06:02:28Z beach: See? 2021-03-22T06:03:42Z beach: Now try (class-of (class-of 234)) 2021-03-22T06:04:28Z Holsteins joined #lisp 2021-03-22T06:04:31Z asarch: So, in theory, if I: (defclass point () ((x ... :accessor x))) and then (defstruct rect (p1 (make-instance 'point)) (p2 (make-instance 'point))) and then (defgeneric draw (instance)) (defmethod draw ((instance point)) ...) I could (let ((r (make-rect))) (draw r))? 2021-03-22T06:04:38Z _paul0 joined #lisp 2021-03-22T06:04:55Z asarch: # 2021-03-22T06:05:07Z asarch scratches his head... 2021-03-22T06:05:23Z Holsteins quit (Quit: Reconnecting) 2021-03-22T06:06:16Z moon-child: asarch: yes, generics work for all types 2021-03-22T06:06:20Z beach: Well, R is a RECT and not a point, and you have a method only for RECT. 2021-03-22T06:06:47Z beach: But yes, a method can specialize to any class. 2021-03-22T06:07:04Z depiction joined #lisp 2021-03-22T06:07:04Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-22T06:07:28Z beach: Er, you have a method only for POINT. 2021-03-22T06:07:49Z kslt1 joined #lisp 2021-03-22T06:07:52Z asarch: (defmethod draw ((instance rect)) (format t "Hello, from rect's draw!~%")) 2021-03-22T06:08:07Z beach: No problem. 2021-03-22T06:08:33Z paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-22T06:08:34Z moon-child: asarch: you can even do this (defgeneric fac (x)) (defmethod fac ((x (eql 0))) 1) (defmethod fac (x) (* x (fac (1- x)))) 2021-03-22T06:09:11Z asarch is looking for the diagram about Common Lisp's classes... 2021-03-22T06:09:29Z moon-child: (though you can't use arbitrary predicates, only eql) 2021-03-22T06:11:40Z depiction quit (Changing host) 2021-03-22T06:11:40Z depiction joined #lisp 2021-03-22T06:13:07Z beach: asarch: A class is a Common Lisp object, and since every Common Lisp object is an instance of a class, so is the class BUILT-IN-CLASS, and it happens to be an instance of the class STANDARD-CLASS. 2021-03-22T06:14:32Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-03-22T06:17:24Z depiction quit (Quit: Reconnecting) 2021-03-22T06:17:31Z mbomba joined #lisp 2021-03-22T06:18:05Z consolation joined #lisp 2021-03-22T06:18:39Z asarch: Bingo! https://twitter.com/B_Galileo/status/1338248778365558786/photo/1 2021-03-22T06:18:50Z asarch: Oops! That's not 2021-03-22T06:18:56Z asarch: https://sellout.github.io/media/CL-type-hierarchy.png 2021-03-22T06:19:34Z consolation quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T06:19:56Z asarch: standard-class and structure-class are at the same level 2021-03-22T06:21:20Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-22T06:21:20Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2021-03-22T06:21:20Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-22T06:21:23Z vutral_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-22T06:22:10Z silverware joined #lisp 2021-03-22T06:25:41Z silverware quit (Quit: Reconnecting) 2021-03-22T06:26:19Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-03-22T06:28:14Z mbomba quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-03-22T06:30:10Z beach: asarch: What do you conclude from that fact? 2021-03-22T06:32:28Z asarch: Well, you said is actually danger to use structures because you can't change them later 2021-03-22T06:33:16Z beach: Yes, STRUCTURE-CLASS is defined so that modifications do not have defined semantics. 2021-03-22T06:34:05Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-22T06:34:11Z asarch: But in terms of "comfort", I think is much faster just (point-x instance) than (slot-value instance 'x) 2021-03-22T06:34:34Z beach: Nobody is stopping you. 2021-03-22T06:35:51Z Kirov joined #lisp 2021-03-22T06:35:58Z asarch: I had problems with the accessors of the classes of my HTML generator because I had some other auxiliary functions named like them 2021-03-22T06:36:01Z beach: You started by asking why CLOS is needed at all, and it was explained to you. Without CLOS you could not have defined the generic functions and the methods in your example. And if you want to quit your Common Lisp image each time you redefine a struct, that's up to you. 2021-03-22T06:36:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: I almost never use slot-value 2021-03-22T06:36:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: explicitly, at least 2021-03-22T06:36:38Z asarch: I had to rewrite them adding the suffix '-taco' so the code would work 2021-03-22T06:36:55Z beach: asarch: That is your problem, not that of CLOS. 2021-03-22T06:36:58Z Kirov quit (Changing host) 2021-03-22T06:36:58Z Kirov joined #lisp 2021-03-22T06:37:14Z asarch: (name-taco instance), (value-taco instance), (element-class-taco instance), etc 2021-03-22T06:38:13Z asarch: (slot-value instance 'name), (slot-value instance 'value), (slot-value instance 'element-class), etc 2021-03-22T06:38:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I just do (%slot-name :reader slot-name ...) 2021-03-22T06:38:50Z beach: I recommend you use accessors rather than slot-value. 2021-03-22T06:38:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: Then (slot-name instance) 2021-03-22T06:39:58Z Kirov quit (Quit: Reconnecting) 2021-03-22T06:40:52Z asarch: "I recommend you use accessors rather than slot-value." <- But what if you have "normal" functions named like those accessors? 2021-03-22T06:40:56Z asarch: WARNING: redefining COMMON-LISP-USER::DRAW in DEFUN 2021-03-22T06:41:00Z mfiano: By using slot-value you are bypassing any protocols put in place. It is therefor a good reason to use different symbols for slot names than accessors, (such as prefixing with % and not exporting as mentioned) so consumers of a package cannot veer far from the intended use. 2021-03-22T06:42:29Z mfiano: If you are building up some object by calling slot-value, you are preventing users from extending the behavior with method qualifiers. 2021-03-22T06:43:36Z sparer joined #lisp 2021-03-22T06:43:42Z asarch: I thought this was like C++: class point {public: void taco();}; and class rect {public: void taco();}; and even void taco(); 2021-03-22T06:43:52Z sparer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T06:44:06Z asarch: So the compiler knows what 'taco' I am actually using 2021-03-22T06:45:37Z mfiano: I would suggest reading AMOP, or better, the HyperSpec. CLOS is an integral part of the language, and not understanding how to use it, is really hurting you in regard to the gestalt of the language. 2021-03-22T06:46:59Z asarch: Yeah, you're right. I am in a blind point 2021-03-22T06:47:16Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-22T06:48:21Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-22T06:49:44Z beach: asarch: Why on earth would you deliberately choose to have a slot accessor that has the same name as a function that you also named yourself? 2021-03-22T06:50:13Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2021-03-22T06:50:20Z CrazyEddy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T06:50:59Z beach: ... and then complain about it. 2021-03-22T06:51:23Z asarch: Well, for example, every HTML element has a 'value' property, so, the normal would be to have an accessor with that name so one could: (setf (value instance) "...") 2021-03-22T06:51:40Z beach: That's fine. 2021-03-22T06:52:11Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2021-03-22T06:52:15Z CrazyEddy quit (Changing host) 2021-03-22T06:52:15Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2021-03-22T06:52:45Z mfiano: I am not understanding the issue, really, but it sounds like a lesson in separation of concerns and packages. 2021-03-22T06:53:07Z CrazyEddy quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-22T06:53:19Z beach: asarch: Why on earth would you deliberately start by defining an ordinary function with a name that you know you will later want to use as the name of a slot accessor? 2021-03-22T06:53:26Z beach: ... and then complain about it. 2021-03-22T06:53:27Z asarch: And also, in the code I use and auxiliary function called 'value' written months before this idea called value that actually (cdr (assoc "..." (cdr (car _parse)) :test #'string=)) in the "POST" method controllers 2021-03-22T06:54:24Z asarch: I am not complain about it, I'm just was asking 2021-03-22T06:55:00Z beach: The answer is "don't do that". 2021-03-22T06:55:08Z asarch: Packages, right. I thought packages was for very big code 2021-03-22T06:55:29Z mfiano: No, they are a complement to good protocol design, which is a complement to good software design. 2021-03-22T06:55:56Z beach: asarch: You should create a coherent interface known as a "protocol" to your data structures. 2021-03-22T06:56:58Z asarch: Ok. structures, don't. classes, yes. If your accessors chokes with other functions, keep them in a package. Clear! 2021-03-22T06:58:07Z beach: asarch: I tend to divide my programs into "modules" where each module has a separate directory, a separate ASDF system file, and a separate package. 2021-03-22T06:58:28Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-22T06:58:30Z beach: That organization makes it easy then to define a protocol for each module. 2021-03-22T06:58:40Z mfiano: Structures are fine to use in low-level code that won't be changing. It is usually done much later in development if one needs that though, as they hurt interactive development. 2021-03-22T07:01:05Z asarch: And the HTML form generator is not big enough to use the sophisticated things like a protocol for it. It is just one function that concatenate lots of strings 2021-03-22T07:01:14Z Klopsch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T07:01:28Z Klopsch joined #lisp 2021-03-22T07:01:44Z beach: That sounds like a lame excuse to avoid learning about modular programming. 2021-03-22T07:01:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: This is the sort of thinking that leads to all the messes I have to deal with at work :) 2021-03-22T07:02:11Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: YES!!!! 2021-03-22T07:02:20Z mfiano: Oh yes indeed. 2021-03-22T07:03:26Z asarch: Following the three virtues of a programmer :-P 2021-03-22T07:04:29Z srandon111 joined #lisp 2021-03-22T07:05:21Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-22T07:05:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't think people really understand how much thinking like "I just need to get this done" ends up costing companies 2021-03-22T07:06:04Z srandon111: hello all, i am new to lisp, and i still have to choose the lisp flavor i like, i tried different lisps/schemes, but now i would like some reccomendations to some lisp which is efficient and good to create command line apps, i need to generate standalone executables for different OS... what lisp would be better for these purposes ? 2021-03-22T07:06:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: Partly because management has no choice but to trust the programmers they hire to act professionally and in the best interst of the company 2021-03-22T07:06:25Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: Certainly, CTOs don't, or they would do something about it. 2021-03-22T07:07:02Z beach: srandon111: This channel is dedicated to Common Lisp, so that's the recommendation you would probably get. 2021-03-22T07:07:04Z mfiano: srandon111: This channel is about Common Lisp specifically. If you are looking for a dialect to choose, we can only speak of that. You may find ##lisp more on-topic for discussing others 2021-03-22T07:07:45Z srandon111: mfiano, ok so does common lisp satisfy my requirements ? 2021-03-22T07:07:54Z beach: srandon111: SBCL is an implementation of Common Lisp that generates fast code. 2021-03-22T07:07:57Z srandon111: i mean is it possible with common lisp to generate standalone executables ? 2021-03-22T07:07:57Z mfiano: Yes 2021-03-22T07:08:02Z mfiano: Most Lisps fit your criteria 2021-03-22T07:08:05Z beach: srandon111: But the executable is kind of big. 2021-03-22T07:08:28Z srandon111: beach, how can i compile to a standalone executable with no external libraries need ? 2021-03-22T07:08:37Z srandon111: like a sort of statically linked exe 2021-03-22T07:08:55Z mfiano: It depends on which implementation of COmmon Lisp. That is not something the language itself provides. 2021-03-22T07:08:56Z beach: srandon111: I never generate executables, so I don't know. 2021-03-22T07:09:06Z flip214: srandon111: completely avoiding libpthread and libc etc. isn't really that practical... 2021-03-22T07:09:23Z srandon111: mfiano, SBCL 2021-03-22T07:09:29Z mfiano: save-lisp-and-die 2021-03-22T07:09:38Z flip214: but there are patches floating around for SBCL, ISTR. And I guess you can also recompile ECL to a static binary. 2021-03-22T07:09:42Z srandon111: mfiano, ? 2021-03-22T07:09:52Z mfiano: That is the function to search for in the manual 2021-03-22T07:10:00Z srandon111: mfiano, i mean i have this common lisp script, what sbcl command should i use ? 2021-03-22T07:10:07Z mfiano: I just said! 2021-03-22T07:10:10Z moon-child: (sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die "output-filename" :toplevel #'your-main-function :executable t) 2021-03-22T07:10:24Z flip214: srandon111: https://www.timmons.dev/posts/static-executables-with-sbcl.html 2021-03-22T07:11:30Z surabax joined #lisp 2021-03-22T07:11:47Z srandon111: thanks moon-child flip214 2021-03-22T07:12:29Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2021-03-22T07:12:54Z CrazyEddy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T07:14:25Z asarch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-22T07:16:16Z yam joined #lisp 2021-03-22T07:17:00Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-22T07:17:30Z yam quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-22T07:20:27Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-22T07:23:25Z pithy joined #lisp 2021-03-22T07:23:42Z pithy quit (Quit: Reconnecting) 2021-03-22T07:24:08Z karlosz quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-22T07:26:03Z asarch joined #lisp 2021-03-22T07:26:54Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2021-03-22T07:28:53Z Summer joined #lisp 2021-03-22T07:31:37Z Summer quit (Changing host) 2021-03-22T07:31:37Z Summer joined #lisp 2021-03-22T07:31:39Z Summer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T07:32:05Z sincidenc joined #lisp 2021-03-22T07:33:52Z sincidenc quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-22T07:34:58Z transceivers joined #lisp 2021-03-22T07:36:41Z transceivers quit (Changing host) 2021-03-22T07:36:41Z transceivers joined #lisp 2021-03-22T07:38:37Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-22T07:39:51Z transceivers quit (Quit: Reconnecting) 2021-03-22T07:39:55Z karlosz quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-22T07:41:02Z prxq_ quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-03-22T07:41:16Z prxq joined #lisp 2021-03-22T07:42:03Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-22T07:44:42Z Lawanda joined #lisp 2021-03-22T07:45:59Z Lawanda quit (Quit: Reconnecting) 2021-03-22T07:49:22Z louis771_ joined #lisp 2021-03-22T07:51:31Z emitting joined #lisp 2021-03-22T07:51:34Z emitting quit (Changing host) 2021-03-22T07:51:34Z emitting joined #lisp 2021-03-22T07:51:58Z emitting quit (Quit: Reconnecting) 2021-03-22T07:53:04Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2021-03-22T08:01:28Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2021-03-22T08:07:33Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-03-22T08:09:28Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-22T08:10:40Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-22T08:11:53Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-03-22T08:14:00Z aindilis` joined #lisp 2021-03-22T08:16:39Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-22T08:16:49Z louis771_ quit (Quit: My M1 has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-22T08:17:39Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-03-22T08:20:39Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2021-03-22T08:21:26Z sxmx quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-03-22T08:23:07Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-03-22T08:24:06Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2021-03-22T08:24:36Z flip214: does someone have a CBOR library for CL? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CBOR 2021-03-22T08:24:39Z CrazyEddy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T08:24:40Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2021-03-22T08:26:21Z moon-child: flip214: not sure, but there is for msgpack 2021-03-22T08:27:00Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-03-22T08:28:17Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2021-03-22T08:28:39Z CrazyEddy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T08:29:14Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-22T08:30:11Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2021-03-22T08:32:00Z DHARMAKAYA quit (Quit: Turning off a portion of this simulation.) 2021-03-22T08:35:29Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-22T08:36:41Z CrazyEddy quit (Quit: Reconnecting) 2021-03-22T08:37:17Z flip214: moon-child: that's not the same, is it? 2021-03-22T08:38:26Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-03-22T08:39:10Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2021-03-22T08:41:46Z zagura joined #lisp 2021-03-22T08:41:58Z datajerk quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-22T08:42:54Z CrazyEddy quit (Quit: Reconnecting) 2021-03-22T08:44:43Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2021-03-22T08:47:10Z CrazyEddy quit (Changing host) 2021-03-22T08:47:10Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2021-03-22T08:48:56Z pve joined #lisp 2021-03-22T08:49:01Z CrazyEddy quit (Quit: Reconnecting) 2021-03-22T08:51:19Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2021-03-22T08:51:23Z admich joined #lisp 2021-03-22T08:52:32Z datajerk joined #lisp 2021-03-22T08:53:31Z CrazyEddy quit (Changing host) 2021-03-22T08:53:31Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2021-03-22T08:54:53Z CrazyEddy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T09:03:28Z Major_Biscuit joined #lisp 2021-03-22T09:07:07Z hypoglycemia joined #lisp 2021-03-22T09:08:01Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-22T09:08:18Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T09:08:46Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-22T09:08:46Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-03-22T09:09:22Z hypoglycemia quit (Quit: Reconnecting) 2021-03-22T09:09:46Z patching joined #lisp 2021-03-22T09:10:32Z patching quit (Changing host) 2021-03-22T09:10:32Z patching joined #lisp 2021-03-22T09:11:17Z patching quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T09:16:33Z simpregna joined #lisp 2021-03-22T09:17:34Z simpregna quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T09:19:58Z admich` joined #lisp 2021-03-22T09:20:56Z admich quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-22T09:22:06Z cosimone quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-22T09:22:08Z retrospective joined #lisp 2021-03-22T09:22:14Z Major_Biscuit quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-22T09:23:31Z retrospective quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-22T09:24:17Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-03-22T09:27:20Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-22T09:32:38Z delighted joined #lisp 2021-03-22T09:33:44Z delighted quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-22T09:34:55Z ratify joined #lisp 2021-03-22T09:36:01Z ratify quit (Changing host) 2021-03-22T09:36:01Z ratify joined #lisp 2021-03-22T09:39:45Z ratify quit (Quit: Reconnecting) 2021-03-22T09:41:45Z Major_Biscuit joined #lisp 2021-03-22T09:48:14Z srepellan joined #lisp 2021-03-22T09:57:02Z _whitelogger_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T09:57:04Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-22T09:59:13Z _whitelogger_ joined #lisp 2021-03-22T10:00:06Z vegansbane6963 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-03-22T10:06:59Z OlCe joined #lisp 2021-03-22T10:11:00Z louis771 quit (Quit: My M1 has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-22T10:16:21Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-03-22T10:19:47Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-22T10:24:52Z pillton quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-03-22T10:26:16Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-03-22T10:33:18Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-03-22T10:34:01Z louis771 quit (Quit: My M1 has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-22T10:35:16Z jonatack_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-22T10:35:29Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-22T10:36:41Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-22T10:36:59Z Major_Biscuit joined #lisp 2021-03-22T10:40:13Z andrei-n joined #lisp 2021-03-22T10:40:17Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-22T10:40:39Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-22T10:44:39Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: are you able to load parenscript in ECL? 2021-03-22T10:46:22Z VincentVega quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-22T10:51:19Z jackdaniel: I don't know, I haven't tried. 2021-03-22T10:52:22Z jackdaniel: are you able to load parenscript in ecl? 2021-03-22T10:55:52Z sxmx joined #lisp 2021-03-22T10:57:04Z admich`` joined #lisp 2021-03-22T10:58:54Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: no it isn't working for me 2021-03-22T10:59:07Z jmercouris: the documentation of parenscript indicates that it /should/work 2021-03-22T10:59:21Z admich` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-22T11:00:22Z jmercouris: however it results in an error upon attempting to quickload it 2021-03-22T11:01:27Z cchristiansen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T11:03:35Z jackdaniel: it seems that parenscript uses a variable name tag₁ and ecl tries to coerce it to a base string (of course that is not possible) 2021-03-22T11:04:00Z jackdaniel: as of whether ecl needs to coerce it is another story, if you feel that it doesn't need to then please fill an issue on gitlab 2021-03-22T11:04:14Z jmercouris: I see 2021-03-22T11:20:15Z dhil joined #lisp 2021-03-22T11:21:25Z scymtym quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T11:32:05Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-03-22T11:37:01Z scymtym joined #lisp 2021-03-22T11:37:39Z louis771 quit (Quit: My M1 has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-22T11:37:59Z vutral_ joined #lisp 2021-03-22T11:40:16Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-03-22T11:43:30Z andrei-n quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-22T11:44:09Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-22T11:44:53Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-22T11:53:18Z OlCe quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-22T11:56:36Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-03-22T11:56:47Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-22T11:57:08Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T11:57:08Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-22T11:57:32Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-22T11:57:46Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-22T11:58:22Z srepellan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T12:06:02Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2021-03-22T12:11:23Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-22T12:11:42Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-22T12:15:49Z OlCe joined #lisp 2021-03-22T12:19:08Z Stanley00 quit 2021-03-22T12:22:28Z louis771 quit (Quit: My M1 has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-22T12:23:47Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-03-22T12:26:03Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-03-22T12:27:07Z long4mud quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-22T12:27:24Z louis771 quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-22T12:28:52Z OlCe quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-22T12:29:43Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-03-22T12:35:21Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2021-03-22T12:37:38Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-22T12:39:20Z Major_Biscuit joined #lisp 2021-03-22T12:39:20Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-22T12:39:44Z luis9 joined #lisp 2021-03-22T12:43:58Z luis quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-22T12:43:58Z luis9 is now known as luis 2021-03-22T12:46:08Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-22T12:46:33Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-22T12:50:26Z galex-713 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T12:54:39Z warweasle joined #lisp 2021-03-22T12:59:51Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T12:59:58Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-22T13:03:59Z MrtnDk[m]: How do I get the Lisp expansion, that contains "iota" in SBCL? 2021-03-22T13:04:14Z MrtnDk[m]: (I forget the name of it, Allegra or something?) 2021-03-22T13:04:56Z louis771 quit (Quit: My M1 has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-22T13:06:02Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-22T13:08:20Z Bike: alexandria? 2021-03-22T13:09:29Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-22T13:13:49Z igemnace quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T13:16:38Z narimiran quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-22T13:17:45Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-03-22T13:18:10Z MrtnDk[m]: beach beach yes, I think that's it! 2021-03-22T13:19:00Z OlCe joined #lisp 2021-03-22T13:19:09Z Bike: if you have quicklisp installed, should just be (ql:quickload :alexandria) 2021-03-22T13:20:34Z fgurh457 joined #lisp 2021-03-22T13:24:46Z MrtnDk[m]: Bike I get an error. Package ~A does not exist. 2021-03-22T13:25:30Z Bike: package "QUICKLISP"? 2021-03-22T13:25:35Z Bike: you probably don't have quicklisp installed. 2021-03-22T13:27:35Z MrtnDk[m]: Bike I just installed it. cl-quicklisp. I even restarted Emacs. 2021-03-22T13:28:09Z Bike: from debian? it's possible your lisp implementation hasn't gotten the memo 2021-03-22T13:28:22Z Bike: if (find-package "QUICKLISP") => NIL, it's not hooked up correctly 2021-03-22T13:28:34Z MrtnDk[m]: But thou are correct, it doesn't seem to acknowledge that quicklisp is installed. 2021-03-22T13:29:14Z Bike: i have no idea how debian works with this stuff, but your lisp implementation needs to load the quicklisp setup file 2021-03-22T13:29:20Z Bike: which is probably lurking in your system somewhere 2021-03-22T13:29:27Z MrtnDk[m]: Bike Yup, it returns nil. 2021-03-22T13:29:59Z MrtnDk[m]: Art thou on red hat / centos? 2021-03-22T13:30:19Z flip214: MrtnDk[m]: https://packages.debian.org/sid/all/cl-quicklisp/filelist tells me no files at all 2021-03-22T13:30:51Z Bike: flip214: it seems to be in other releases? 2021-03-22T13:30:53Z Bike: https://packages.debian.org/jessie/all/cl-quicklisp/filelist 2021-03-22T13:31:25Z Bike: i suppose you might want to look at README.Debian there, mrtndk 2021-03-22T13:31:35Z choegusung joined #lisp 2021-03-22T13:31:45Z MrtnDk[m]: Right 2021-03-22T13:31:51Z Bike: i've never used lisp through a package manager, so i'm afraid i'm not much help here 2021-03-22T13:32:38Z fgurh457 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T13:36:45Z choegusung quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-22T13:40:43Z etimmons: Mrtn Dk: debian's Quicklisp package only includes the Quicklisp installer. You need to load /usr/share/cl-quicklisp/quicklisp.lisp and follow the instructions 2021-03-22T13:41:30Z flip214: and a version from 2015 at that 2021-03-22T13:41:40Z Xach: flip214: the newest version is from 2015 2021-03-22T13:41:46Z Xach: the installer does not change often 2021-03-22T13:43:04Z ggoes quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3) 2021-03-22T13:43:24Z ggoes joined #lisp 2021-03-22T13:45:07Z jackdaniel: I stick to an advice presented by Xach at els in london (I think): curl … | sh # :) 2021-03-22T13:45:26Z flip214: jackdaniel: "sudo sh" is the canonical way 2021-03-22T13:45:47Z flip214: or pipe directly into ansible or so... 2021-03-22T13:47:07Z jackdaniel: sounds like fun 2021-03-22T13:47:20Z vutral_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-22T13:49:55Z MrtnDk[m]: eric You're right. I did that. I think it's finally installed. 2021-03-22T13:50:00Z MrtnDk[m]: Thank you everyone. 2021-03-22T13:51:56Z MrtnDk[m]: Now, my next problem. I can load Alexandra, it seems; however (iota 5) still gives me "Undefined function". 2021-03-22T13:52:39Z jackdaniel: try (alexandria:iota 5) 2021-03-22T13:56:01Z MrtnDk[m]: jackdaniel That works! Thanks. However, please tell me, that there is a way to avoid typing alexandria each time ... 2021-03-22T13:56:25Z jackdaniel: (import 'alexandria:iota) 2021-03-22T13:56:28Z jackdaniel: then (iota 5) 2021-03-22T13:56:43Z jackdaniel: that's for a repl 2021-03-22T13:57:01Z flip214: MrtnDk[m]: define your own package that uses alexandria. (defpackage :mrtndk (:use :cl :alexandria)) (in-package :mrtndk) (print (iota 4)) 2021-03-22T13:57:49Z jackdaniel: but when you define a package, you could a) put the USE clause in it [not very good, because the library you depend on may break your own system in the future when it adds a conflicting symbol to its export] b) add a package local nickname to alexandria 2021-03-22T13:58:42Z jackdaniel: b) is an extension (as in -not part of the standard) but it allows you to refer alexandria symbols like (a:iota 5)) 2021-03-22T13:58:58Z MrtnDk[m]: Can I add it to the startup file like ql? That would be even easier I guess. 2021-03-22T14:00:47Z jackdaniel: adding some repl utilities to a startup file is fine, however that will work only for that use case (repl that is, when you are in the appropriate package), when you write software you usually want to define your own package 2021-03-22T14:02:51Z admich joined #lisp 2021-03-22T14:03:10Z VincentVega joined #lisp 2021-03-22T14:04:13Z xlei quit (Quit: ZNC - https://znc.in) 2021-03-22T14:07:42Z MrtnDk[m]: Thanks. 2021-03-22T14:07:50Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-22T14:12:42Z VincentVega quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-22T14:14:08Z xlei joined #lisp 2021-03-22T14:15:15Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-22T14:16:49Z supercoven joined #lisp 2021-03-22T14:22:47Z sjl joined #lisp 2021-03-22T14:27:25Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2021-03-22T14:30:46Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-03-22T14:30:55Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-22T14:31:07Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2021-03-22T14:31:11Z IPmonger_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-22T14:33:01Z jcowan: Someone should write a HOWTO for scripting in Common Lisp that minimizes boilerplate. 2021-03-22T14:33:04Z Josh_2: Good afternoon 2021-03-22T14:34:08Z Josh_2: jcowan: seems the tutorial I used is no longer online :( 2021-03-22T14:34:50Z Josh_2: http://web.archive.org/web/20201107230350/https://ebzzry.io/en/script-lisp/ 2021-03-22T14:35:46Z jackdaniel: jcowan: lately sjl published a blog post on the topic 2021-03-22T14:36:15Z jackdaniel: there it is: https://stevelosh.com/blog/2021/03/small-common-lisp-cli-programs/ 2021-03-22T14:36:39Z jackdaniel: I'm personally using net.didierverna.clon for cli programs 2021-03-22T14:36:41Z louis771 quit (Quit: My M1 has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-22T14:41:01Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-03-22T14:46:38Z splittist: Style question: (if condition (progn ...) (progn ...)) or (cond (condition ...) (t ...)) ? The former, presumably, using the normal reasoning about being explicit. 2021-03-22T14:47:18Z splittist: (and taking into account that a couple of raw progns is unusual) 2021-03-22T14:47:32Z beach: I do the former, but I agree it's not ideal. 2021-03-22T14:48:05Z splittist: Or if** (: 2021-03-22T14:48:10Z beach: Heh. 2021-03-22T14:48:48Z beach: The latter saves a few characters of indentation unless you stick a newline after PROGN in the former. 2021-03-22T14:49:01Z beach: But then you lose two lines instead. 2021-03-22T14:50:00Z beach: Frequently, there is a LET or a SETF in the branches, so you can remove the PROGN. 2021-03-22T14:50:31Z Josh_2: I also do the former 2021-03-22T14:51:26Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-03-22T14:51:53Z splittist: Yes. It's just really for the unusual case that some serial operation is being done that doesn't deserve its own function and doesn't introduce some branch-local state. 2021-03-22T14:52:54Z beach: Right, and I agree that the argument is the "most specific construct". 2021-03-22T14:52:54Z jcowan: I on the other hand always use cond when either the then-expr or the else-expr is at all complex. 2021-03-22T14:58:29Z luni left #lisp 2021-03-22T15:17:17Z jcowan: I came up with the idea of making safe readtable changes that affect the file they are in by putting calls to set-[dispatching]-macro-character into #. Is that a standard idea? Or is there some reason why it won't work? 2021-03-22T15:18:06Z Xach: jcowan: that is not an uncommon idea. 2021-03-22T15:18:26Z jcowan: Thanks. Is it a bad idea? 2021-03-22T15:19:09Z Xach: jcowan: I don't think so - unconstrained read-time evaluation is not something you always want. But I haven't solicited other opinions on the topic, either, so there may be some drawback of which I'm unaware. 2021-03-22T15:19:30Z Xach: I last used it to trap #. when processing asdf files with READ. 2021-03-22T15:19:36Z tiwEllien joined #lisp 2021-03-22T15:19:46Z Xach: It used to be quite common to use #. to load files to populate system metadata 2021-03-22T15:19:57Z Xach: I don't think it's as common now but maybe my sampling is off 2021-03-22T15:20:35Z Major_Biscuit quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-22T15:20:41Z jcowan: Well, I think a #. form should have as few effects as possible on principle. 2021-03-22T15:21:02Z jcowan: Which is not to say zero. 2021-03-22T15:21:41Z Major_Biscuit joined #lisp 2021-03-22T15:21:46Z semz: Is that guaranteed to only affect the current file? 2021-03-22T15:22:20Z jcowan: Do you have a view on the #.(values) case? Returning NIL is strictly ANSI conformant, but many Lisps return nothing at all, which is clearly useful. 2021-03-22T15:22:56Z Xach: semz: *READTABLE* is bound around LOAD, and you can use that to build some guarantees (it doesn't guarantee it by itself) 2021-03-22T15:23:05Z Xach: jcowan: i do not have an opinion 2021-03-22T15:23:52Z semz: Ah, as usual I looked in the wrong place. 2021-03-22T15:30:02Z anon9002 joined #lisp 2021-03-22T15:30:56Z anon9002: Is there a standard function for converting a list of characters to string? Something like list->string in Scheme. 2021-03-22T15:31:41Z flip214: anon9002: (concatenate 'string #\f #\o #\o), potentially using apply. Or FORMAT with an iteration. 2021-03-22T15:31:45Z Shinmera: (map 'string #'identity list) 2021-03-22T15:32:14Z Shinmera: or (coerce list 'string) 2021-03-22T15:32:16Z flip214: or WITH-OUTPUT-TO-STRING and print everything into it. 2021-03-22T15:32:55Z flip214: CONCATENATE and the MAP and COERCE only work with pure lists of characters; FORMAT would also take numbers, strings, etc. and concatenate them up. 2021-03-22T15:33:33Z jcowan: anon9002: Coerce is magic, except that it's pre-CLOS and not extensible to any other types than are specifically allowed. But it's the first place to look for Scheme foo->bar procedures. 2021-03-22T15:34:09Z anon9002: flip214, Shinmera, jcowan: Thanks! 2021-03-22T15:34:58Z asdflkj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-22T15:34:59Z jcowan: It would have been nice if the ANSI WG had redefined coerce (and several others) as GFs. 2021-03-22T15:37:47Z Bike: it gets a little awkward with general types, unfortunately. the sequences extension has to do stuff with prototype instances to make GFs make sense 2021-03-22T15:39:20Z asdflkj joined #lisp 2021-03-22T15:50:42Z cantstanya quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-22T15:53:59Z cantstanya joined #lisp 2021-03-22T16:04:13Z Josh_2: Gnuxie[m]: You worked with no-defun on the decentralized hash table? I don't remember the library name, but was it based on Matrix? 2021-03-22T16:07:15Z Klopsch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T16:07:57Z Klopsch joined #lisp 2021-03-22T16:10:01Z beach: Josh_2: no-defun-allowed hangs out in #sicl mostly in case you have questions. 2021-03-22T16:10:20Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T16:11:00Z beach: But it is 3am in Melbourne so you may have to wait a few hours. 2021-03-22T16:12:15Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-22T16:12:18Z Klopsch quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-22T16:15:40Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-03-22T16:15:47Z elusive joined #lisp 2021-03-22T16:16:17Z raeda joined #lisp 2021-03-22T16:18:37Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T16:19:41Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-22T16:20:10Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3)) 2021-03-22T16:20:22Z jcowan: coerce can be done with instance types, so the method for doing list->string would have a signature of ((list list) (((eql string) _). 2021-03-22T16:20:46Z madage joined #lisp 2021-03-22T16:21:03Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-22T16:22:04Z beach: By "instance type", do you mean "EQL specializer"? 2021-03-22T16:22:33Z OlCe quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-22T16:22:52Z Bike: that wouldn't cover other specialized arrays that don't have types that are symbols 2021-03-22T16:23:09Z Bike: or ones with lengths, though that's kind of a stupid feature anyway 2021-03-22T16:24:53Z Gnuxie[m]: Josh_2: you mean cl-decentralise2? It's not based on matrix but there is an experiment program called 'Catfood' on the gitlab that's like matrix 2021-03-22T16:25:16Z OlCe joined #lisp 2021-03-22T16:25:52Z Gnuxie[m]: https://gitlab.com/cal-coop/netfarm/experiments/catfood 2021-03-22T16:27:17Z Gnuxie[m]: But no-defun-allowed is the person to talk to about it, I'm mostly just credited for ideas and discussion, she does all the real work 2021-03-22T16:27:28Z admich quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-03-22T16:28:00Z jcowan: beach: yes, (a designator for) a type that includes a single instance. 2021-03-22T16:28:10Z admich`` left #lisp 2021-03-22T16:28:19Z lonjil quit (Quit: Quit.) 2021-03-22T16:29:42Z lonjil joined #lisp 2021-03-22T16:29:43Z Gnuxie[m]: Josh_2: i'm curious why you are asking, I assume you want something 'built on matrix' rather than based on? 2021-03-22T16:30:05Z Gnuxie[m]: Maybe we should take this to #matrix-dev 2021-03-22T16:30:29Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2021-03-22T16:30:30Z MrtnDk[m]: Given a list of strings, how do you get the index of a given string? It seems that "position" more or less exclusively deals with integers and/or chars. 2021-03-22T16:30:53Z Josh_2: MrtnDk[m]: (position :test #'string=) 2021-03-22T16:31:18Z Josh_2: Gnuxie[m]: I was basically looking for a hash table implementation that uses Matrx for storage 2021-03-22T16:31:26Z Josh_2: I was just curious if that is what you two had done 2021-03-22T16:31:46Z Josh_2: I suppose I can implement my own version if needed 2021-03-22T16:32:16Z Gnuxie[m]: Josh_2: ok nope, that's pretty much what state events are for anyways 2021-03-22T16:33:55Z Josh_2: yeh, if needed I will just make my own means of storing data in a nice way on Matrix 2021-03-22T16:34:06Z MrtnDk[m]: Josh_2 Ah, I think I finally get it! Thank thee. 2021-03-22T16:34:21Z OlCe quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-22T16:34:21Z Josh_2: MrtnDk[m]: :test and :key are very very useful :P 2021-03-22T16:34:50Z MrtnDk[m]: Key? 2021-03-22T16:36:32Z Josh_2: Yes, say you have a list of objects and the objects have an accessor like "user-id" then you could do (position :test #'string= :key #'user-id ) 2021-03-22T16:37:14Z jasom: minion: memo for pillton: I *can* make nyaml a streaming parser (it would mean dumping esrap, but the parts of esrap I use aren't terribly hard to copy). It would still process an entire document at a time though, as I don't really care to find all the places where backtracking can't happen 2021-03-22T16:37:15Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell pillton when he/she/it next speaks. 2021-03-22T16:37:28Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-22T16:37:30Z Josh_2: and then each element in would make its comparison against (user-id ) 2021-03-22T16:38:33Z cantstanya quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T16:39:52Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-22T16:40:36Z cantstanya joined #lisp 2021-03-22T16:41:02Z louis771 quit (Quit: My M1 has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-22T16:41:51Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-22T16:44:08Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-22T16:46:49Z waleee-cl joined #lisp 2021-03-22T16:47:33Z matryoshka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-22T16:48:24Z matryoshka joined #lisp 2021-03-22T16:50:53Z drl quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-22T16:53:13Z Alfr: jcowan, if you take 2.4.8.6's first sentence and the glossary entry for evaluate, you get a justification for #.(values) expanding to nothing. The problem here is that it contradicts the definite article in "the object resulting from". OTOH, 3.1.7 could justify nil, if you assume implementations are prohibited to use e.g. multiple-value-list to explicitly distinguish between the two cases of "returning zero or more values" (cf. glossary evaluate). 2021-03-22T16:54:03Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-03-22T16:54:12Z Alfr: I think 2.4.8.6 isn't specific enough to prescribe what #.FOO should read to, in case FOO evaluates to no values. Maybe just chalk it up as just an other UB? 2021-03-22T16:54:24Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-22T16:57:51Z aindilis` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T16:59:25Z aindilis joined #lisp 2021-03-22T17:02:19Z Klopsch joined #lisp 2021-03-22T17:03:44Z jcowan: It all hangs on the first "the" in "#.foo is read as the object resulting from the evaluation of the object represented by foo." Normally there is an implicature there which means a single object is required. But that is a very thin argument, especially when CLtL1 said otherwise and there is no issue that changed this AFAICT. 2021-03-22T17:04:10Z jcowan: (Still, it's better than the fate of Roger Casement, who was hanged on a comma.) 2021-03-22T17:05:19Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-22T17:06:08Z splittist: The dictionary entry for VALUES (the function/accessor) describes it as returning "the objects" (which can be no values); the glossary entry for 'multiple values' includes none, obviously. It seems justifiable (if not, perhaps, compulsory?) to read "the object" as "the object (if any)", at least. 2021-03-22T17:07:49Z jcowan: wut, nobody wants to know about Roger Casement? 2021-03-22T17:07:51Z jcowan whines 2021-03-22T17:08:45Z beach: jcowan: Wikipedia. 2021-03-22T17:08:48Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-22T17:08:54Z jcowan: Sure. 2021-03-22T17:10:11Z madage joined #lisp 2021-03-22T17:10:14Z DHARMAKAYA joined #lisp 2021-03-22T17:11:08Z Klopsch quit 2021-03-22T17:14:36Z elusive quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-22T17:25:29Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-22T17:26:32Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-22T17:27:41Z zooey_ joined #lisp 2021-03-22T17:27:44Z OlCe joined #lisp 2021-03-22T17:28:08Z zooey quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-22T17:30:36Z mister_m quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-22T17:34:43Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-03-22T17:35:34Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-22T17:44:54Z Alfr: jcowan, and obviously allowing #.(values) to be read to nothing is the more useful, but as it's only a opinion, we'll have to wait for the next iteration of the spec to codify it. ;) 2021-03-22T17:47:35Z galex-713 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-22T17:49:50Z ramus quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-22T17:53:12Z ramus joined #lisp 2021-03-22T17:54:26Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-22T17:54:56Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-22T17:56:36Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-22T17:58:23Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T17:58:38Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-22T18:01:42Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-22T18:02:42Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T18:02:59Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-22T18:06:22Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-22T18:07:07Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T18:07:24Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-22T18:12:53Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T18:12:56Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-03-22T18:13:08Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-22T18:15:44Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-22T18:19:07Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T18:19:20Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T18:19:20Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-22T18:19:35Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-22T18:23:44Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-22T18:24:53Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-22T18:26:24Z tomaw quit (Quit: Quitting) 2021-03-22T18:28:18Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T18:28:33Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-22T18:29:25Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-03-22T18:29:57Z tomaw joined #lisp 2021-03-22T18:34:39Z fuzzypixelz joined #lisp 2021-03-22T18:35:32Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-22T18:35:48Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-22T18:39:00Z fuzzypixelz: hello. I want to see for myself what makes Lisp different than C and Haskell. But I'm not sure which Lisp I should go with! I'm torn between Clojure, CL and Scheme (of course I'm open to others) 2021-03-22T18:39:30Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-22T18:39:45Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T18:42:14Z gabc: fuzzypixelz: depends on what type of stuff you want to do, Scheme is quite easy to learn and has easy to setup implementation (racket for instance), and Common Lisp is 'better' for 'bigger' projects 2021-03-22T18:42:32Z Xach: This channel is for common lisp 2021-03-22T18:43:30Z contrapunctus: fuzzypixelz: try ##lisp for all dialects. 2021-03-22T18:43:43Z fuzzypixelz: thank you contrapunctus 2021-03-22T18:43:51Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-22T18:44:32Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-22T18:44:42Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T18:48:24Z OlCe quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-22T18:48:28Z Josh_2: Obviously you should try Common Lisp 2021-03-22T18:50:05Z fuzzypixelz: Josh_2: may I ask why? 2021-03-22T18:50:16Z Xach: It is the greatest and best Lisp 2021-03-22T18:51:41Z White_Flame: clojure = lisp + java, with heavily opinionated design on immutability; scheme = academically simplified lisp; common lisp = the one used in industry when lisp was hottest 2021-03-22T18:52:28Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-22T18:54:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: When I want to make sure certain systems are loaded in one-off scripts, I do something like #.(progn (ql:quickload ...) nil) 2021-03-22T18:54:26Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-22T18:54:40Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-22T18:54:56Z Xach: fiddlerwoaroof: i would use eval-when instead of that. 2021-03-22T18:55:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: eval-when is loooong ;) 2021-03-22T18:55:22Z Xach: yes. 2021-03-22T18:55:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: I would use (serapeum:eval-always ...) but there's a chicken-and-egg problem here 2021-03-22T18:56:36Z White_Flame: you could skip the #. and do it toplevel, assuming script-only usage 2021-03-22T18:56:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: Also, the semantics of read vs. eval-when aren't always obvious to me: #. forces evaluation by READ which makes the order more explicit 2021-03-22T18:57:02Z Josh_2: fuzzypixelz: what Xach said 2021-03-22T18:58:09Z fuzzypixelz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-22T18:58:48Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-22T18:59:17Z White_Flame: fiddlerwoaroof: except READ isn't called when reloading from fasl 2021-03-22T18:59:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: White_Flame: by "script", I mean "something I run with C-c C-k in emacs" 2021-03-22T19:00:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: And, I wouldn't recommend this generally, I have a folder of little proofs of concepts, and I get tired tracking down all the systems I need to load to make it work 2021-03-22T19:02:21Z srji_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-22T19:02:48Z aeth: White_Flame: top-level in a script without #. (or EVAL-WHEN, I guess) won't work because the symbol won't be available. You could use multiple files, or you could use UIOP:SYMBOL-CALL to get around that. 2021-03-22T19:04:32Z aeth: White_Flame: With a script entry point, you aren't reloading from FASL. It's often just used on CI, where you won't even have anything cached. 2021-03-22T19:04:34Z White_Flame: assuming LOAD from a non-compiled .lisp file, is it guaranteed that each form is individually evaluated before the next one is READ? tends to wokr that way 2021-03-22T19:05:12Z aeth: The file is run in stages. 2021-03-22T19:05:33Z aeth: So if you just naively put the QL at the start, it wouldn't run until run time, making the symbol unavailable at read time 2021-03-22T19:06:06Z aeth: In fact, I think you might need #. because EVAL-WHEN isn't doing it at read time either, is it? 2021-03-22T19:09:00Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-22T19:10:43Z White_Flame: yeah, pretty sure this will work with LOAD 2021-03-22T19:10:47Z White_Flame: as per the spec 2021-03-22T19:11:45Z White_Flame: in fact, the presence of IN-PACKAGE demands handling the form before any further symbols are even READ 2021-03-22T19:12:31Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-22T19:12:31Z aeth: "Everything in-package does is also performed at compile time if the call appears as a top level form." 2021-03-22T19:12:36Z aeth: IN-PACKAGE is special. 2021-03-22T19:12:44Z White_Flame: now, while that can be done before execution time, LOAD does work with this specific example 2021-03-22T19:13:19Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-22T19:13:19Z fuzzypixelz joined #lisp 2021-03-22T19:13:42Z White_Flame: it obviously wouldn't with C-c C-k because of the separate compilation step 2021-03-22T19:14:19Z White_Flame: and "If the file is a source file and the implementation chooses to perform implicit compilation, load must recognize top level forms as described in Section 3.2.3.1 (Processing of Top Level Forms) and arrange for each top level form to be executed before beginning implicit compilation of the next." 2021-03-22T19:14:51Z White_Flame: still not 100% solid proof, but again, runtime seems to have always worked that way 2021-03-22T19:15:48Z fuzzypixelz quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-22T19:16:14Z White_Flame: "load sequentially executes each form it encounters in the file named by filespec." what's the definition of "encounter"? probably more related to READ than the post-compilation step 2021-03-22T19:17:48Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-22T19:18:32Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-22T19:22:44Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-03-22T19:22:47Z jcowan: https://www.cliki.net/Proposed%20ANSI%20Changes shows that Clozure and Allegro have the pre-ANSI rule where #.(values) => nothing at all. 2021-03-22T19:24:27Z jcowan: I also note that it is still true that a reader macro can return 0 or 1 values. 2021-03-22T19:25:52Z White_Flame: #+ and #- return nothing at all as well, so this would be symmetric with that 2021-03-22T19:26:00Z White_Flame: *can return 2021-03-22T19:28:07Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-22T19:30:46Z johnjay joined #lisp 2021-03-22T19:32:02Z srandon111 quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-22T19:32:38Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T19:33:24Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-22T19:34:25Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2021-03-22T19:36:04Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-22T19:36:38Z Spawns_Carpeting quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-22T19:37:14Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-22T19:37:19Z anon9002 quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-22T19:37:22Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2021-03-22T19:42:45Z srandon111 joined #lisp 2021-03-22T19:43:03Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-22T19:43:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: It just occurred to me that I could add to my "repl utils" system a reader macro for the macro-characters reserved for users in the standard readtable 2021-03-22T19:43:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think I'd use #{}, probably, that expands to (eval-when (...) ) 2021-03-22T19:44:11Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-22T19:44:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: Doesn't help with the --no-userinit case, but I only really do that when I'm doing things "for real" anyways 2021-03-22T19:44:24Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2021-03-22T19:47:15Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-22T19:47:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: Maybe #? and force it to be a single form 2021-03-22T19:50:14Z Jachy joined #lisp 2021-03-22T19:52:11Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-03-22T19:52:45Z Alfr quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-22T19:54:31Z asarch joined #lisp 2021-03-22T19:58:40Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-03-22T19:59:20Z karlosz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-22T19:59:31Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-03-22T20:00:34Z warweasle quit (Quit: see ya later.) 2021-03-22T20:08:19Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-22T20:08:58Z caret joined #lisp 2021-03-22T20:11:30Z caret quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-22T20:11:43Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T20:15:18Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-22T20:18:27Z aartaka_d quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-22T20:18:33Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-22T20:31:09Z nitrowheels joined #lisp 2021-03-22T20:31:20Z supercoven quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-22T20:31:31Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-03-22T20:38:43Z asarch_ joined #lisp 2021-03-22T20:40:26Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-22T20:41:06Z asarch quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-22T20:43:53Z asarch_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-22T20:47:04Z Kingsy: anyone in here use vlime with neovim nightly? 2021-03-22T20:47:51Z Kingsy: I am having a strange problem with the autocomplete flashes under the cursor but vanishes straight away. 2021-03-22T20:51:32Z akoana joined #lisp 2021-03-22T20:51:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: Kingsy: when I used vim, I always used slimv + vanilla vim 2021-03-22T20:51:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: neovim had a bunch of issues with slimv 2021-03-22T20:52:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: If the developers of vlime don't use neovim, there might be something similar going on 2021-03-22T20:52:21Z Kingsy: tbh I have a few questions about vlime. if anyone is about and fancies answering some. like for example. to offer autocomplete on a function that is included via asdf / quicklisp do you need to run ql:quickload into the REPL first? if not how else will it know about the function? 2021-03-22T20:52:34Z Kingsy: fiddlerwoaroof: yeah. I am hoping not because I really like nightly. 2021-03-22T20:52:51Z Kingsy: yeah I was using slimv but I didnt like a few things about it 2021-03-22T20:53:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: Kingsy: yes, swank can only offer completions for loaded systems 2021-03-22T20:53:14Z Kingsy: makes sense. 2021-03-22T20:53:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: Although, in theory, one could extend it to somehow cache completions and attempt to load the system that contains a particular symbol 2021-03-22T20:53:57Z Kingsy: I don't mind running the quickloads just understanding that I need to. it does make sense. 2021-03-22T20:54:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, fwiw, I translated my vim config to evil-mode over the course of a couple days and have used emacs ever since 2021-03-22T20:54:09Z louis771 quit (Quit: My M1 has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-22T20:54:25Z Kingsy: yeah I have been using vim too long to move to emacs. 2021-03-22T20:54:45Z Kingsy: I am sure emacs is better.. much better for lisp. but I just cant make the switch at this point. 2021-03-22T20:54:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: I thought that too :) 2021-03-22T20:55:07Z Kingsy: haha 2021-03-22T20:55:22Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-03-22T20:55:30Z Kingsy: flip214: you about? I know your a vlime user!! :D 2021-03-22T20:56:21Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-22T20:58:10Z Kingsy: I'll strip back ALL my plugins and see if I still get the issue. 2021-03-22T20:58:23Z Kingsy: need to do that before I can raise a bug on vlime anyway 2021-03-22T20:59:19Z lottaquestions quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T20:59:47Z lottaquestions joined #lisp 2021-03-22T20:59:52Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-22T21:00:24Z jonatack quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T21:00:49Z louis771 quit (Quit: My M1 has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-22T21:00:51Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-22T21:03:58Z Alfr quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-22T21:05:05Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2021-03-22T21:06:16Z Kingsy: lol I don't even get autocomplete by default. 2021-03-22T21:08:09Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-22T21:15:00Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-22T21:18:20Z rgherdt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T21:18:42Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2021-03-22T21:20:24Z Kingsy: so its compe that breaks vlime autocomplete. 2021-03-22T21:22:29Z pve quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-22T21:23:20Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-22T21:23:50Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-03-22T21:24:23Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-22T21:24:28Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-03-22T21:24:50Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T21:24:56Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-22T21:26:34Z mfiano: vlime works fine with neovim, even nightly. this issue might be with compe 2021-03-22T21:26:57Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-22T21:27:12Z mfiano only recently started using compe, and haven't done much CL in vim to notice any issue 2021-03-22T21:27:16Z louis771 quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-22T21:27:18Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-22T21:28:00Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-22T21:28:09Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-03-22T21:29:45Z GoZoner joined #lisp 2021-03-22T21:30:06Z GoZoner quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-22T21:31:12Z Kingsy: mfiano: I have just disabled everything and the flashing has stopped BUT I am not seeing proper autocomplete. for example if I type (ql: I don't see anything on quicklisp... 2021-03-22T21:31:47Z Kingsy: mfiano: do you have anything special in your compe config? 2021-03-22T21:31:48Z louis771 quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-22T21:32:24Z Kingsy: yeah its just autocompleting from the buffer. 2021-03-22T21:32:28Z mfiano: Despite how much more I like vi than Emacs, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for me to restrict the language that much, so I can't offer much help. 2021-03-22T21:34:45Z kevingal quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-22T21:35:30Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-03-22T21:35:59Z mfiano: sjl's config would be the one to look at though. He's been a vlime user for years on neovim. 2021-03-22T21:39:23Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-03-22T21:40:43Z luckless quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T21:41:17Z luckless joined #lisp 2021-03-22T21:42:06Z nitrowheels quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-22T21:45:40Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-22T21:46:29Z Kingsy: sjl: you about by chance? 2021-03-22T21:47:10Z Kingsy: its 100% compe, if you enable source.omni you get autocomplete but it vanishes as soon as it appears. it like "flashes" on the screen 2021-03-22T21:49:27Z tiwEllien quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-22T21:50:03Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-22T21:53:08Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-22T21:54:56Z cchristiansen joined #lisp 2021-03-22T21:57:51Z DHARMAKAYA quit (Quit: Turning off a portion of this simulation.) 2021-03-22T21:58:55Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-22T22:01:09Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-22T22:04:10Z SAL9000: There was this nice CL library which provided an improved DESCRIBE -- what was it? can't remember the name, and Google is not helping... 2021-03-22T22:04:45Z ft quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-22T22:05:33Z ft joined #lisp 2021-03-22T22:09:45Z DHARMAKAYA joined #lisp 2021-03-22T22:09:53Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-22T22:13:48Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-22T22:14:53Z karlosz quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-22T22:16:49Z elderK quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-22T22:17:16Z theothor` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T22:17:17Z jasom: Is it required that one do a load-op before a program-op in ECL? If I don't do that I get bizarre errors about packages not existing... 2021-03-22T22:18:04Z jasom: nevermind; user-headspace error plus quicklisp 2021-03-22T22:24:53Z Spawns_Carpeting joined #lisp 2021-03-22T22:30:57Z jasom: okay, reduced test-case; the output of program-op on the following gives an error about a missing SPLIT-SEQUENCE package: (asdf:defsystem #:empty.big :depends-on ("drakma") :entry-point uiop:quit :components nil) 2021-03-22T22:31:09Z jasom: *running* the output of program-op that is 2021-03-22T22:31:55Z phoe: I think this is an ECL-specific issue, I remember it being mentioned earlier 2021-03-22T22:32:32Z jasom: I agree it's ECL-specific since I have no problems on sbcl or ccl 2021-03-22T22:32:52Z akoana quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-22T22:35:14Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-22T22:36:20Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-22T22:41:38Z srandon111 quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-22T22:48:10Z MrtnDk[m]: It's quick lisp slime to be preferred over regular slime? 2021-03-22T22:48:44Z phoe: MrtnDk[m]: depends; many people use quicklisp-slime-helper exclusively to ensure that their slime/swank autoupdates with quicklisp 2021-03-22T22:48:46Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: are there security considerations for running version of ECL 16? 2021-03-22T22:49:07Z phoe: this avoids collisions with elpa or melpa or wherever which can cause the slime/swank versions to mismatch 2021-03-22T22:49:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: MrtnDk[m]: yeah quicklisp-slime-helper is really useful 2021-03-22T22:50:50Z jmercouris: the only thing I can discern from the release notes is that random was buggy 2021-03-22T22:50:52Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-03-22T22:57:59Z thmprover joined #lisp 2021-03-22T22:59:18Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 28.0.50)) 2021-03-22T22:59:31Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-22T23:05:05Z alanz: which is most widely used: slime or sly? 2021-03-22T23:05:34Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-03-22T23:06:08Z moon-child: slime 2021-03-22T23:06:48Z alanz: That is the impression I am coming to. I currently have sly set up 2021-03-22T23:09:12Z Xach: I like using sly, it has some very nice features. 2021-03-22T23:09:18Z Xach: I have also used slime for a long time 2021-03-22T23:10:23Z alanz: and what would you recommend for someone reasonably fresh to the ecosystem? 2021-03-22T23:10:36Z mfiano: I prefer the added features and bugfixes of Sly myself 2021-03-22T23:11:40Z perrier-jouet joined #lisp 2021-03-22T23:12:29Z igemnace joined #lisp 2021-03-22T23:14:11Z louis771 quit (Quit: My M1 has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-22T23:16:13Z Xach: alanz: i think it's somewhat easier to find someone to help with slime problems 2021-03-22T23:16:31Z alanz: thanks 2021-03-22T23:18:26Z jcowan left #lisp 2021-03-22T23:19:28Z m00natic joined #lisp 2021-03-22T23:19:54Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-22T23:20:11Z m00natic quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-22T23:20:28Z m00natic joined #lisp 2021-03-22T23:21:38Z matthewcroughan_ quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-03-22T23:21:52Z matthewcroughan joined #lisp 2021-03-22T23:22:44Z karlosz quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-22T23:26:27Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-22T23:27:43Z matthewcroughan quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-03-22T23:27:56Z matthewcroughan joined #lisp 2021-03-22T23:29:12Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T23:31:03Z m00natic joined #lisp 2021-03-22T23:35:21Z m00natic quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-22T23:35:38Z m00natic joined #lisp 2021-03-22T23:38:18Z matthewcroughan quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-03-22T23:38:30Z matthewcroughan joined #lisp 2021-03-22T23:42:04Z Kingsy: any vim lisp users here yet? 2021-03-22T23:42:44Z m00natic quit (Quit: Quit) 2021-03-22T23:43:03Z m00natic joined #lisp 2021-03-22T23:52:07Z perrier-jouet quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-03-22T23:53:21Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-22T23:56:04Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T23:56:28Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-23T00:08:49Z indathrone joined #lisp 2021-03-23T00:11:42Z shinohai: I use vim + slimv, but yer having autocomplete issue Kingsy? Haven't caught up on the logs yet. 2021-03-23T00:15:11Z indathrone quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-23T00:20:08Z jonatack_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-23T00:21:43Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-23T00:22:04Z Spawns_Carpeting quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-23T00:22:20Z Spawns_Carpeting joined #lisp 2021-03-23T00:23:41Z jurov_ joined #lisp 2021-03-23T00:25:12Z jurov quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-23T00:29:43Z MrtnDk[m]: Kingsy:: If you like vi, you might be prone to like evil as well. 2021-03-23T00:34:31Z White_Flame: are people still using ceramic? its included electron & node_modules libs are very old and we're having really basic problems with them 2021-03-23T00:34:52Z White_Flame: it's the lisp wrapper around electron 2021-03-23T00:35:07Z matthewcroughan quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-03-23T00:44:21Z DHARMAKAYA quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-23T00:59:06Z indathrone joined #lisp 2021-03-23T01:09:51Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-03-23T01:10:09Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-23T01:41:56Z matthewcroughan joined #lisp 2021-03-23T01:58:43Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T02:12:59Z xsperry quit 2021-03-23T02:16:20Z DHARMAKAYA joined #lisp 2021-03-23T02:19:43Z dhil quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-23T02:27:25Z tinhatcat joined #lisp 2021-03-23T02:27:44Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-03-23T02:28:37Z Josh_2: Xach: you use Sly over Slime? 2021-03-23T02:32:55Z xsperry joined #lisp 2021-03-23T02:40:56Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-23T02:49:00Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-23T02:51:20Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-23T02:55:11Z DHARMAKAYA quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-23T03:04:08Z semz joined #lisp 2021-03-23T03:07:46Z pillton joined #lisp 2021-03-23T03:10:15Z tinhatcat quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-23T03:13:00Z pillton: jasom: Does it make moresense to write something which accumulates the data up until the --- and then process that subset with the existing functionality? 2021-03-23T03:13:00Z minion: pillton, memo from jasom: I *can* make nyaml a streaming parser (it would mean dumping esrap, but the parts of esrap I use aren't terribly hard to copy). It would still process an entire document at a time though, as I don't really care to find all the places where backtracking can't happen 2021-03-23T03:13:24Z pillton: Oh sorry. I read that on the IRC logs. 2021-03-23T03:13:32Z pillton: And then wrote my question. 2021-03-23T03:21:48Z thmprover quit (Quit: [Exit, pursued by bear]) 2021-03-23T03:21:57Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2021-03-23T03:26:45Z prxq_ joined #lisp 2021-03-23T03:28:29Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-23T03:29:15Z asarch joined #lisp 2021-03-23T03:30:27Z prxq quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-23T03:32:41Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T03:37:58Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-23T03:38:42Z asarch: I do (ql:quickload :caveman2 and then (caveman2:make-project #P"tacos" :autor "Jonh Doe") and, well, the full output log is here: https://pastebin.com/1pdksVym 2021-03-23T03:39:19Z asarch: In the file src/web.lisp is where all the action occurs and that is where I need the package of the HTML generator 2021-03-23T03:40:42Z asarch: In Slime I can (load #P"src/guacamole.lisp") and then (use-package :tamales) in order to create the form object: (let ((my-form (make-instance 'form :title "Add new Tacos"...))) ...) 2021-03-23T03:41:05Z asarch: But, in the src/web.lisp it simply doesn't work 2021-03-23T03:42:35Z asarch: When I start the project, SBCL actually reads the content of the src/guacamole.lisp but when I try to use the package with (use-package :tamales) in src/web.lisp, it replies the error that the form class actually is not available in the TACOS.WEB package 2021-03-23T03:43:47Z asarch: I've tried different ways to use the package 'tamales' in the 'guacamole.lisp' file in the 'src/web.lisp' file methods :-( 2021-03-23T03:46:21Z asarch: Caveman2 uses Envy for its configuration setup 2021-03-23T03:47:10Z mrchampion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T03:53:13Z asarch: How would you add this package to the project? 2021-03-23T04:01:35Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-03-23T04:02:03Z Alfr is now known as Guest9507 2021-03-23T04:02:04Z Guest9507 quit (Killed (egan.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))) 2021-03-23T04:02:08Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-03-23T04:04:44Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T04:05:03Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-23T04:05:06Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2021-03-23T04:15:52Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-23T04:19:38Z Josh_2: Morning beach 2021-03-23T04:20:44Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-03-23T04:24:54Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-23T04:29:47Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-23T04:33:40Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-23T04:34:11Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-23T04:42:02Z _whitelogger_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T04:44:13Z _whitelogger_ joined #lisp 2021-03-23T04:52:06Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-23T04:58:40Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-23T04:59:11Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-23T05:00:31Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-23T05:02:54Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: running outdated software is a security consideration on its own term 2021-03-23T05:04:35Z asarch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T05:09:16Z asarch joined #lisp 2021-03-23T05:15:32Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-23T05:17:00Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-23T05:18:24Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-23T05:22:13Z wxie joined #lisp 2021-03-23T05:26:16Z Oddity- joined #lisp 2021-03-23T05:26:57Z Helmholtz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-23T05:28:28Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-23T05:29:10Z Helmholtz joined #lisp 2021-03-23T05:29:26Z Oddity quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-23T05:31:59Z aindilis joined #lisp 2021-03-23T05:32:27Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-23T05:33:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: White_Flame: I have the general impression that Eudoxia's projects are relatively unmaintained 2021-03-23T05:36:21Z luckless quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T05:36:48Z luckless joined #lisp 2021-03-23T05:38:24Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-03-23T05:50:53Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-23T05:51:29Z DHARMAKAYA joined #lisp 2021-03-23T05:54:17Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-23T05:55:40Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T05:56:26Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-23T05:56:33Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-23T05:58:29Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-23T06:03:01Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-23T06:03:01Z galex-713_ joined #lisp 2021-03-23T06:05:47Z _paul0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T06:06:00Z paul0 joined #lisp 2021-03-23T06:08:55Z |3b| quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T06:11:28Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-03-23T06:14:20Z emacsomancer quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-23T06:15:35Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-23T06:17:20Z wxie joined #lisp 2021-03-23T06:18:51Z icer joined #lisp 2021-03-23T06:21:59Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-03-23T06:28:02Z srandon111 joined #lisp 2021-03-23T06:29:47Z pve joined #lisp 2021-03-23T06:31:03Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-23T06:32:08Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-23T06:35:11Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-23T06:36:51Z emacsomancer joined #lisp 2021-03-23T06:46:55Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-23T06:53:57Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-23T06:55:19Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-23T06:58:28Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-23T06:58:52Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-23T06:59:36Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-03-23T06:59:55Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-23T07:01:19Z pillton: ,quit 2021-03-23T07:01:21Z pillton quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-03-23T07:11:17Z DHARMAKAYA quit (Quit: Turning off a portion of this simulation.) 2021-03-23T07:14:54Z louis771 quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2021-03-23T07:15:17Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-03-23T07:16:50Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-23T07:28:21Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-03-23T07:32:48Z phantomics quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-23T07:33:03Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-23T07:38:30Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2021-03-23T07:38:57Z m00natic quit (Quit: Quit) 2021-03-23T07:39:03Z phantomics joined #lisp 2021-03-23T07:39:05Z surabax joined #lisp 2021-03-23T07:39:32Z phantomics quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-23T07:42:38Z pankajsg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T07:43:59Z ikrabbe joined #lisp 2021-03-23T07:45:38Z srandon111: why common lisp is case insensitive? 2021-03-23T07:45:48Z srandon111: for function names 2021-03-23T07:46:59Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-03-23T07:47:27Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-03-23T07:49:33Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-23T07:53:22Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T07:53:49Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-23T07:54:55Z White_Flame: srandon111: symbols are technically case sensitive 2021-03-23T07:55:07Z White_Flame: '|a| is not 'a/'A 2021-03-23T07:55:18Z White_Flame: the reader's default case mode is to uppercase on read 2021-03-23T07:55:29Z White_Flame: that can be changed, and pipes override the default case 2021-03-23T08:00:55Z icer quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2021-03-23T08:06:45Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-23T08:07:27Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-03-23T08:07:28Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-23T08:08:03Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-03-23T08:08:40Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-23T08:10:35Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-23T08:11:27Z aggin joined #lisp 2021-03-23T08:18:33Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-23T08:20:00Z aggin quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-23T08:21:42Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T08:21:47Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-03-23T08:21:58Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-23T08:26:36Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2021-03-23T08:30:06Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-03-23T08:39:21Z galex-713_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-23T08:52:52Z rwcom60280385034 joined #lisp 2021-03-23T08:55:32Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-03-23T09:00:05Z quanta[m] quit (Quit: Idle for 30+ days) 2021-03-23T09:00:07Z sepanko_ quit (Quit: Idle for 30+ days) 2021-03-23T09:00:51Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2021-03-23T09:13:23Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T09:14:11Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-23T09:14:49Z OlCe joined #lisp 2021-03-23T09:15:21Z hiroaki quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T09:17:06Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-03-23T09:18:07Z Major_Biscuit joined #lisp 2021-03-23T09:18:32Z jonatack_ quit (Quit: jonatack_) 2021-03-23T09:19:07Z beach: srandon111: Common Lisp is the way it is because it tried to be somewhat compatible with several different Lisp dialects that existed when it was created. 2021-03-23T09:21:03Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-03-23T09:24:30Z ChoHag joined #lisp 2021-03-23T09:24:34Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-23T09:29:41Z beach` joined #lisp 2021-03-23T09:30:21Z beach quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-03-23T09:30:26Z beach` is now known as beach 2021-03-23T09:36:56Z wxie joined #lisp 2021-03-23T09:38:42Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-23T09:39:40Z dra_ joined #lisp 2021-03-23T09:40:17Z dra_ quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-23T09:40:27Z dra joined #lisp 2021-03-23T09:41:55Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-23T09:43:07Z perrier-jouet joined #lisp 2021-03-23T09:48:50Z Kingsy: 1/j emacs 2021-03-23T09:53:34Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-23T09:55:16Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-03-23T09:58:45Z m00natic joined #lisp 2021-03-23T10:00:06Z vegansbane6963 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-03-23T10:01:48Z dra quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T10:09:09Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-23T10:09:32Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-03-23T10:12:01Z ljavorsk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T10:12:26Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-03-23T10:17:14Z Stanley00 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T10:18:30Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-03-23T10:20:33Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2021-03-23T10:23:39Z prxq_ quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-03-23T10:23:49Z prxq joined #lisp 2021-03-23T10:26:29Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-23T10:28:59Z l1x joined #lisp 2021-03-23T10:31:57Z igemnace quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T10:32:13Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-03-23T10:33:28Z Iacob joined #lisp 2021-03-23T10:34:26Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-23T10:35:28Z cchristiansen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T10:35:46Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T10:36:00Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-23T10:36:18Z Iacob quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-23T10:39:21Z ljavorsk_ joined #lisp 2021-03-23T10:39:23Z ljavorsk_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T10:44:31Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-23T10:44:38Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-23T10:45:02Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-23T10:47:17Z dhil joined #lisp 2021-03-23T10:48:52Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-23T10:50:07Z OlCe quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-23T10:51:00Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-03-23T10:51:01Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-23T10:51:31Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-23T10:52:47Z OlCe joined #lisp 2021-03-23T10:53:21Z Tordek quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-23T10:55:34Z Stanley00 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T11:01:45Z OlCe quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-23T11:06:26Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-23T11:07:04Z OlCe joined #lisp 2021-03-23T11:08:41Z hjudt joined #lisp 2021-03-23T11:24:55Z semz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-23T11:26:39Z Major_Biscuit joined #lisp 2021-03-23T11:28:09Z OlCe quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-23T11:32:06Z Spawns_Carpeting quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-23T11:32:26Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-23T11:32:45Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-23T11:33:54Z Spawns_Carpeting joined #lisp 2021-03-23T11:35:45Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-23T11:39:42Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-23T11:40:00Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-23T11:42:35Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-03-23T11:42:43Z jonatack_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-23T11:42:52Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-23T11:43:09Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-23T11:43:13Z VincentVega joined #lisp 2021-03-23T11:43:21Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-03-23T11:44:44Z froggey joined #lisp 2021-03-23T11:46:20Z VincentVega quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-23T11:48:03Z jonatack_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-23T11:48:08Z jonatack__ joined #lisp 2021-03-23T11:54:50Z Tordek joined #lisp 2021-03-23T11:55:04Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T11:55:28Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-23T11:57:36Z nydel1 is now known as nydel 2021-03-23T11:57:45Z nydel quit (Changing host) 2021-03-23T11:57:45Z nydel joined #lisp 2021-03-23T12:10:15Z jello_pudding quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-23T12:12:04Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-03-23T12:16:25Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-23T12:16:36Z jello_pudding joined #lisp 2021-03-23T12:20:23Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-23T12:23:31Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2021-03-23T12:26:06Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-23T12:26:38Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T12:26:58Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-23T12:28:50Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-23T12:29:21Z jonatack__ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-23T12:32:38Z hiroaki1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-23T12:33:29Z hiroaki1 joined #lisp 2021-03-23T12:37:27Z retropikzel joined #lisp 2021-03-23T12:41:57Z rwcom60280385034 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-23T12:42:27Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-23T12:44:15Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2021-03-23T12:44:44Z warweasle joined #lisp 2021-03-23T12:46:38Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-23T12:54:08Z _jrjsmrtn quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-23T12:54:11Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp 2021-03-23T12:58:10Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-23T13:00:19Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T13:00:40Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-23T13:01:29Z aggin joined #lisp 2021-03-23T13:02:54Z aggin: If anyone who uses cl+ssl here, what does "An I/O error occurred: undocumented reason (return code: 5)" mean 2021-03-23T13:04:11Z gzj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-23T13:04:32Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-23T13:05:12Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T13:05:37Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-23T13:08:11Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T13:08:33Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-23T13:09:13Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T13:09:36Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-23T13:10:26Z Bike: i don't use it, but it looks like libssl signaled an error cl+ssl doesn't understand https://github.com/cl-plus-ssl/cl-plus-ssl/blob/master/src/conditions.lisp#L189-L210 2021-03-23T13:10:46Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-23T13:11:13Z gzj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-23T13:11:36Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-23T13:12:05Z OlCe joined #lisp 2021-03-23T13:14:03Z aggin: oh ok 2021-03-23T13:14:14Z aggin: thanks 2021-03-23T13:14:14Z aggin quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-23T13:15:18Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T13:15:38Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-23T13:18:17Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T13:18:40Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-23T13:20:17Z gzj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-23T13:20:40Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-23T13:31:02Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T13:31:19Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T13:31:31Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-03-23T13:31:42Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-23T13:31:55Z corpix_ joined #lisp 2021-03-23T13:32:29Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-23T13:32:29Z corpix quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-23T13:34:25Z deltab quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-23T13:37:07Z madage joined #lisp 2021-03-23T13:38:23Z deltab joined #lisp 2021-03-23T13:45:54Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-23T13:49:28Z didi joined #lisp 2021-03-23T13:50:34Z didi: What does the "n" stands for in mutating functions like `nreverse'? 2021-03-23T13:52:50Z mrchampion joined #lisp 2021-03-23T13:54:56Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-23T13:54:58Z flip214: Kingsy: I'm here now, what's the issue? 2021-03-23T13:55:04Z Bike: ndestructive 2021-03-23T13:55:15Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T13:55:26Z flip214: wasn't it "not consing"? 2021-03-23T13:55:37Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-23T13:55:51Z didi: Bike: :-) 2021-03-23T13:57:39Z Kingsy: flip214: thats ok! I have taken a different tact. I am going to give emacs a spin! 2021-03-23T13:59:01Z Kingsy: I never thought I would be I am constantly fighting against vim and its starting to become annoying. All of the things I want with nvim seem to be available on emacs too. like lsp support for common languages. it runs in a terminal.. so screw it. I'm going to give it a go. 2021-03-23T13:59:44Z didi: Kingsy: Beware of Emacs terminal. Some key combinations won't work in a terminal. 2021-03-23T14:00:33Z Kingsy: didi: well. I'm going to use emacs gtk for now. but its handy knowing I have a terminal version I can use on my vps IF I do like emacs and start to use it over vim. 2021-03-23T14:00:47Z ChoHag: didi: 'n-place. 2021-03-23T14:00:56Z didi: Kingsy: I use TRAMP to edit remote files. 2021-03-23T14:01:07Z didi: ChoHag: Ah, nice. 2021-03-23T14:01:40Z ChoHag: Kingsy: You could try one if the vims that have been ported to emacs. 2021-03-23T14:01:42Z ChoHag: I use evil. 2021-03-23T14:02:43Z Kingsy: ChoHag: yeah! I think I will.. BUT. I want to messa round with the emacs bindings first. might aswell. 2021-03-23T14:02:49Z flip214: Kingsy: good luck! whatever meets your ends is okay. Just.... don't ever start python (the language) ;) 2021-03-23T14:02:59Z Kingsy: didi: wowÂ! tramp looks amazing 2021-03-23T14:03:02Z luckless quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T14:03:06Z didi: Kingsy: It's awesome. 2021-03-23T14:03:34Z Kingsy: how is emacs memory footprint? I know vim is super low.. obviously its a gui.. it is a fAir amount more? 2021-03-23T14:03:55Z Xach: emacs stands for "eight megs and constantly swapping". 2021-03-23T14:04:45Z louis771 quit (Quit: My M1 has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-23T14:04:46Z Xach: Kingsy: it's a fair amount more than vim 2021-03-23T14:04:58Z gabc: Kingsy: depends also on the amount of package you add 2021-03-23T14:05:24Z Kingsy: haha its got to be less than the intellij suite.. which is what I currently use :D 2021-03-23T14:05:58Z gabc: It probably will, but it really depends on what you do with it 2021-03-23T14:06:08Z flip214: Is there a function to shallowly copy a CLOS instance? 2021-03-23T14:06:08Z Kingsy: of cours eyeah 2021-03-23T14:06:20Z Bike: flip214: no. 2021-03-23T14:06:32Z flip214: Bike: not even in CLOSER-MOP or ALEXANDRIA? 2021-03-23T14:06:33Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-03-23T14:06:55Z Bike: i don't think they do. you could write one with mop, assuming you only wanted to handle standard slots 2021-03-23T14:07:04Z flip214: yeah, exactly.... 2021-03-23T14:07:17Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-23T14:07:19Z flip214: thanks 2021-03-23T14:07:26Z gabc: Kingsy: right now my emacs takes 73MB of ram if that is of any help 2021-03-23T14:07:46Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-23T14:08:01Z ChoHag: Kingsy: Says I'm using ~70MB here. 2021-03-23T14:08:09Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-23T14:08:16Z didi: 233 MB. 2021-03-23T14:08:38Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-23T14:09:10Z ChoHag: Well I rebooted a few weeks ago. 2021-03-23T14:09:28Z gabc: I don't use emacs much on my work computer too, mostly just for magit 2021-03-23T14:10:13Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-23T14:10:24Z ChoHag: By way of comparison, firehose is taking 500MB and I only have a dozen or so tabs open and it crashes every few days. 2021-03-23T14:10:27Z Kingsy: yeah thats not much. 2021-03-23T14:10:31Z Kingsy: firefox is using 2gb 2021-03-23T14:10:31Z Kingsy: :D 2021-03-23T14:10:42Z Kingsy: anyway thansk for the info 2021-03-23T14:11:56Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-03-23T14:12:23Z sjl joined #lisp 2021-03-23T14:15:02Z ChoHag: Oh and hey, if emacs doesn't work out you could head the other way on the editor spectrum and try ed. 2021-03-23T14:15:14Z Kingsy: hahaha 2021-03-23T14:20:03Z Odin- remembers using edlin on DOS. 2021-03-23T14:20:11Z Odin-: That was ... different. :p 2021-03-23T14:22:03Z gabc: I got quite good with 'ed' a few years back, was fun 2021-03-23T14:22:25Z Josh_2: Good afternoon 2021-03-23T14:24:21Z aeth: I only learned the basics of ed (and vim), several times. So I'm probably completely rusty again if I ever had to navigate either. 2021-03-23T14:24:48Z aeth: Any good ed-in-CL editors? I think there have to be several. 2021-03-23T14:24:53Z louis771 quit (Quit: My M1 has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-23T14:25:30Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-03-23T14:25:40Z ChoHag: ed is (mostly) just what you type after : in vi. 2021-03-23T14:26:34Z aeth: Yes, the VIsual mode for ex, which I guess should be called EdX 2021-03-23T14:26:35Z gabc: aeth: lem is good, but not ed 2021-03-23T14:26:36Z aggin joined #lisp 2021-03-23T14:26:45Z Josh_2: Emacs gooder 2021-03-23T14:26:58Z Xach: aeth: i feel like i've seen one or two before, but the names escape me 2021-03-23T14:29:21Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2021-03-23T14:32:17Z Major_Biscuit joined #lisp 2021-03-23T14:33:23Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-23T14:35:41Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-23T14:39:14Z aggin quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-23T14:40:49Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2021-03-23T14:41:39Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2021-03-23T14:42:24Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-03-23T14:45:56Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-23T14:46:27Z Odin-: aeth: To be invoked when calling ed? :p 2021-03-23T14:46:45Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-23T14:47:07Z gabc: aeth: well there is that http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Body/f_ed.htm 2021-03-23T14:48:17Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-23T14:50:09Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-23T14:50:37Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T14:51:02Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-23T14:55:39Z OlCe quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-23T14:56:06Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T14:56:14Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-23T15:03:23Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-23T15:04:00Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-23T15:05:14Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-23T15:06:17Z wsinatra quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-23T15:06:48Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-03-23T15:09:40Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-23T15:10:25Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-23T15:12:40Z aggin joined #lisp 2021-03-23T15:14:33Z beach: flip214: The term "CLOS instance" is meaningless. Every Common Lisp object is an instance of some class. 2021-03-23T15:14:49Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-23T15:15:43Z phoe: some are instances of standard-classes 2021-03-23T15:15:49Z phoe: and some are instances of substandard classes 2021-03-23T15:16:02Z beach: Yes. What's the point? 2021-03-23T15:16:29Z phoe: I assume flip214 meant "standard-object" instead of "CLOS instance" 2021-03-23T15:16:31Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-03-23T15:16:53Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-23T15:16:56Z CrazyPython joined #lisp 2021-03-23T15:16:58Z beach: I think it is a mistake to assume that. It is much better to have flip214 use the correct terminology. 2021-03-23T15:19:15Z gzj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-23T15:19:37Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-23T15:19:55Z lansiir joined #lisp 2021-03-23T15:21:01Z oldtopman quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-23T15:21:14Z edgar-rft: beach: somehow "the term CLOS instance is meaningless" together with "every Common Lisp object is an instance of some class" makes me conclude that "every Common Lisp object is meaningless"? 2021-03-23T15:22:12Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T15:22:27Z isBEKaml joined #lisp 2021-03-23T15:22:47Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-23T15:25:11Z |3b| joined #lisp 2021-03-23T15:27:28Z aggin quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-23T15:28:45Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-23T15:29:53Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-23T15:30:08Z beach: edgar-rft: I am sorry to hear that. 2021-03-23T15:31:17Z edgar-rft: in Common Lisp (+ 1 1) is an OOP program! 2021-03-23T15:31:35Z phoe: so is 1 + 1 in smalltalk though 2021-03-23T15:31:45Z phoe: don't even get me started about java... 2021-03-23T15:31:56Z gabc: In python too I guess? and in ruby 2021-03-23T15:34:25Z Shinmera quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T15:34:53Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2021-03-23T15:34:58Z mgr_ quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-23T15:34:59Z fiddlerwoaroof quit (Quit: Gone.) 2021-03-23T15:35:01Z Theora[m] quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-23T15:35:18Z fiddlerwoaroof joined #lisp 2021-03-23T15:35:34Z gingerale- joined #lisp 2021-03-23T15:35:41Z idxu quit (Quit: ZNC - https://znc.in) 2021-03-23T15:35:47Z katco quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-23T15:35:48Z Blkt quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-23T15:35:48Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-23T15:35:48Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-23T15:35:48Z copec quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T15:35:48Z dmiles[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-23T15:35:57Z copec_ joined #lisp 2021-03-23T15:35:58Z idxu joined #lisp 2021-03-23T15:35:59Z Gnuxie[m] quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-23T15:36:00Z loke[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-23T15:36:00Z kreyren quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-23T15:36:07Z eschatologist quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T15:36:26Z Blkt joined #lisp 2021-03-23T15:36:27Z matthewcroughan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T15:36:35Z harlchen[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-23T15:36:36Z infra_red[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-23T15:36:39Z mgr_ joined #lisp 2021-03-23T15:36:39Z ey[m] quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-23T15:36:44Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-23T15:36:56Z matthewcroughan joined #lisp 2021-03-23T15:37:13Z susam quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-23T15:37:29Z Major_Biscuit joined #lisp 2021-03-23T15:37:31Z tweet[m] quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-23T15:37:35Z MrtnDk[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-23T15:37:39Z isoraqathedh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T15:38:03Z copec_ is now known as copec 2021-03-23T15:38:07Z isoraqathedh joined #lisp 2021-03-23T15:38:08Z ms[m] quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-23T15:38:08Z etimmons quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-23T15:38:11Z keja_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-23T15:38:14Z OlCe joined #lisp 2021-03-23T15:38:42Z keja_ joined #lisp 2021-03-23T15:38:45Z arcontethegreat[ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-23T15:38:45Z ThaEwat quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-23T15:39:33Z Krystof quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-23T15:40:03Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-23T15:43:39Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T15:43:46Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-23T15:48:48Z Major_Biscuit quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2021-03-23T15:48:49Z mister_m joined #lisp 2021-03-23T15:49:07Z Major_Biscuit joined #lisp 2021-03-23T15:49:45Z katco joined #lisp 2021-03-23T15:49:56Z theothornhill quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2021-03-23T15:50:04Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-23T15:52:18Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-23T15:53:32Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-23T15:54:00Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2021-03-23T15:54:43Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2021-03-23T15:55:01Z Theora[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-23T15:56:38Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-23T15:56:57Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-23T16:01:18Z dmiles[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-23T16:02:40Z ey[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-23T16:05:55Z susam joined #lisp 2021-03-23T16:06:02Z kreyren joined #lisp 2021-03-23T16:06:25Z jasom: minion: memo for pillton: I don't think the yaml grammar guarantees that the substring '\n---' is always a document terminator 2021-03-23T16:06:25Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell pillton when he/she/it next speaks. 2021-03-23T16:06:42Z totoro2021 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-23T16:06:58Z Gnuxie[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-23T16:08:02Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-23T16:08:53Z loke[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-23T16:08:59Z nmg_ joined #lisp 2021-03-23T16:09:39Z nmg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-23T16:12:25Z tweet[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-23T16:12:39Z infra_red[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-23T16:12:52Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-23T16:13:25Z harlchen[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-23T16:14:06Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-23T16:14:13Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-23T16:16:13Z Alloc joined #lisp 2021-03-23T16:18:16Z semz joined #lisp 2021-03-23T16:18:44Z etimmons joined #lisp 2021-03-23T16:20:50Z aggin joined #lisp 2021-03-23T16:20:56Z Alloc quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-23T16:21:56Z MrtnDk[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-23T16:23:14Z shinohai: I think minion needs some more pronouns. he/she/it alone isn't inclusive enough. 2021-03-23T16:23:36Z jasom: just replace it with "they" 2021-03-23T16:23:57Z jasom: by "it" I meant "he/she/it" not just the "it" part 2021-03-23T16:24:00Z ms[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-23T16:24:04Z shinohai: xD 2021-03-23T16:24:08Z beach: Or "that entity". 2021-03-23T16:24:27Z phantomics joined #lisp 2021-03-23T16:24:32Z jasom: Remembered. I'll tell FOO when FOO next speaks. 2021-03-23T16:24:43Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-23T16:24:45Z moon-child: or sidestep the problem entirely: I'll bring it up next time pillton speaks 2021-03-23T16:25:15Z arcontethegreat[ joined #lisp 2021-03-23T16:26:04Z shinohai goes to make a pull request to cl-irc demanding inclusive pronouns and a Code-of-Conduct .... 2021-03-23T16:27:20Z ThaEwat joined #lisp 2021-03-23T16:27:34Z Josh_2: Thanks for the information 2021-03-23T16:27:53Z Josh_2: I agree with beach 2021-03-23T16:28:18Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T16:28:25Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-23T16:28:41Z shinohai: Josh_2: you do realize I'm jesting, neh? 2021-03-23T16:29:02Z Josh_2: No you didn't put a /s 2021-03-23T16:29:14Z didi left #lisp 2021-03-23T16:30:04Z Josh_2: But now I know :P 2021-03-23T16:30:57Z shinohai: ^.^ 2021-03-23T16:31:18Z Alloc joined #lisp 2021-03-23T16:33:43Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-23T16:33:59Z mmkarakaya joined #lisp 2021-03-23T16:38:56Z aggin quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-23T16:44:00Z waleee-cl joined #lisp 2021-03-23T16:45:11Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-23T16:46:17Z Alloc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T16:46:33Z Alloc joined #lisp 2021-03-23T16:50:12Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-23T16:52:03Z dra_ joined #lisp 2021-03-23T16:52:23Z dra_ quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-23T16:52:25Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-23T16:52:33Z dra joined #lisp 2021-03-23T16:55:03Z Alloc quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-23T16:55:09Z gzj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-23T16:55:29Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-23T16:56:18Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-23T16:56:43Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-23T16:56:49Z m00natic quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-23T17:01:19Z matthewcroughan quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-03-23T17:01:35Z matthewcroughan joined #lisp 2021-03-23T17:03:37Z matthewcroughan quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-23T17:03:44Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-23T17:03:50Z matthewcroughan joined #lisp 2021-03-23T17:12:59Z wsinatra_ joined #lisp 2021-03-23T17:13:24Z edgar-rft suggests to replace "he/she/it/" by "CLOS instance" 2021-03-23T17:13:33Z wsinatra quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-23T17:13:46Z Jachy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T17:14:36Z edgar-rft: ...because in Common Lisp everyone is a CLOS instance 2021-03-23T17:17:46Z Josh_2: I like this 2021-03-23T17:17:52Z shinohai: aha 2021-03-23T17:21:22Z aeth: just say "the instance" 2021-03-23T17:21:31Z aeth: or "they", same meaning 2021-03-23T17:22:22Z Josh_2: "I'll tell the instance of " 2021-03-23T17:24:10Z aeth: "they" = "thei" = "the instance(s)" 2021-03-23T17:24:41Z Josh_2: verbose == more gooder 2021-03-23T17:28:59Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T17:29:42Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-03-23T17:30:33Z aeth: But, more seriously, this grammar argument has been held over the internet for like 15 years or so, if not longer. Just using "they/their/them" as singular/plural to refer to a user is perfectly valid English and takes up way less space without offending (almost) anyone. The only confusing part is when translating it, it might be unclear if it's singular or plural or unspecified. 2021-03-23T17:31:19Z aeth: And it's so subtle, nobody's even going to notice it unless they look for it. 2021-03-23T17:31:57Z jdz quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-23T17:32:14Z White_Flame: since this is IRC, "I'll tell FOO when someone or something claiming that handle speaks next" 2021-03-23T17:32:27Z Josh_2: instance of is more Lisp specific 2021-03-23T17:32:55Z Alfr: What happened to choosing the most specific construct? 2021-03-23T17:33:09Z edgar-rft: The point is that as a CLOS instance you're meaningless 2021-03-23T17:33:21Z phoe: Alfr: people don't understand multiple inheritance so the concept kinda went down the drain 2021-03-23T17:33:38Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-23T17:34:22Z aeth: ("nobody's even going to notice it unless they look for it" is exactly an example of what I'm talking about, by the way, since "nobody" is singular) 2021-03-23T17:35:01Z yang joined #lisp 2021-03-23T17:35:05Z edgar-rft: the internet is full of nobodies (plural) 2021-03-23T17:35:16Z aeth: Quite the paradox. 2021-03-23T17:35:53Z aeth: It's like how with continuous probabilities, p(x) for any x is 0, and yet, you have a distribution that sums to 1. 2021-03-23T17:36:38Z Alfr: Move this to the cafe? ;) 2021-03-23T17:36:43Z mmkarakaya left #lisp 2021-03-23T17:37:11Z aeth: absolutely. 2021-03-23T17:37:52Z aeth: Although my serious point is imo on-topic since there should be a style guide not just for Lisp code, but also for Lisp documentation. (wait, people write documentation?) 2021-03-23T17:38:12Z shinohai apologizes, didn't mean to start off-topic convo with mere joke .... 2021-03-23T17:39:03Z Josh_2: No there shouldn't aeth 2021-03-23T17:39:12Z White_Flame prefers a bit of cheekiness, especially in bots 2021-03-23T17:40:03Z wsinatra_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-23T17:40:24Z jdz joined #lisp 2021-03-23T17:42:34Z jasom: edgar-rft: it's the modifier "clos" that is the meaningless part of "CLOS instance" Unless you can point to an object that isn't a CLOS instance 2021-03-23T17:43:50Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-03-23T17:48:55Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-23T17:49:50Z isBEKaml quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-23T17:50:05Z edgar-rft: jasom: I don't need CLOS to be meaningless :-) 2021-03-23T17:50:08Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-23T17:51:25Z metehan joined #lisp 2021-03-23T17:51:59Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-23T17:52:03Z Alloc joined #lisp 2021-03-23T17:52:05Z Alloc quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-23T17:52:48Z Alloc joined #lisp 2021-03-23T17:52:49Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-23T17:53:03Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-23T17:53:04Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-23T17:53:08Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T17:53:13Z Alloc quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-23T17:53:18Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-23T17:53:27Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-23T17:59:11Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2021-03-23T18:00:02Z jdz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-23T18:01:09Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-23T18:01:35Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-23T18:02:24Z abhixec quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-23T18:05:53Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-23T18:07:45Z Trieste quit (Quit: Be well!) 2021-03-23T18:09:57Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-23T18:10:56Z lclark joined #lisp 2021-03-23T18:11:27Z lclark quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-23T18:13:11Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-23T18:13:14Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T18:14:57Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-23T18:15:11Z jdz joined #lisp 2021-03-23T18:15:57Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-23T18:19:37Z wsinatra quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-23T18:19:39Z wsinatra_ joined #lisp 2021-03-23T18:24:44Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-23T18:25:11Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-23T18:26:40Z dra quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-23T18:26:42Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-23T18:27:26Z rpg joined #lisp 2021-03-23T18:35:40Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T18:36:10Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-03-23T18:36:12Z cosimone quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-23T18:37:00Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-03-23T18:37:10Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-23T18:38:00Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-03-23T18:42:05Z drbluefall joined #lisp 2021-03-23T18:59:22Z metehan quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-23T18:59:22Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-23T19:02:58Z wsinatra_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-23T19:06:40Z metehan_lambda joined #lisp 2021-03-23T19:08:00Z villanella quit (Quit: villanella) 2021-03-23T19:08:11Z Odin-: aeth: Documentation is a myth. 2021-03-23T19:08:31Z ChoHag: I write documentation. 2021-03-23T19:09:07Z ChoHag: Nobody reads it. 2021-03-23T19:10:14Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-23T19:10:53Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-23T19:11:28Z MrtnDk[m]: Odin- Do you know Odin-lap? 2021-03-23T19:13:30Z White_Flame: I write documentation. *I* read it 2021-03-23T19:13:40Z Josh_2: ^ 2021-03-23T19:13:44Z moon-child: you write your own documentation? 2021-03-23T19:13:47Z moon-child: narcissist 2021-03-23T19:13:49Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-03-23T19:14:07Z Josh_2: Well might struggle to find someone else to write it 2021-03-23T19:14:09Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-23T19:15:14Z ChoHag: White_Flame: Honestly I think that's the most useful purpose of the stuff. 2021-03-23T19:15:23Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-23T19:15:42Z ChoHag: I don't know wtf I was thinking last night. How can I possibly remember what this code I wrote last year did? 2021-03-23T19:16:15Z Odin-: MrtnDk[m]: ... is that nick active? 2021-03-23T19:16:45Z ChoHag: moon-child: Code's not complete without documentation. 2021-03-23T19:17:11Z MrtnDk[m]: Odin- It used to be. 2021-03-23T19:18:12Z Odin-: Well, yes. Usually at a similar time as this one, depending on which computer I was using at the time. 2021-03-23T19:19:47Z metehan_lambda is now known as metehan 2021-03-23T19:19:56Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-23T19:20:15Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-23T19:27:37Z Krystof joined #lisp 2021-03-23T19:31:19Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-23T19:31:26Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-23T19:35:23Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2021-03-23T19:35:29Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-23T19:36:23Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-23T19:36:49Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2021-03-23T19:43:08Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-23T19:43:31Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-23T19:45:34Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-03-23T19:48:02Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-23T19:48:41Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-23T19:49:25Z jonatack_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-23T19:49:25Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-23T19:49:54Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-03-23T19:50:58Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-23T19:52:06Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-23T19:54:02Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-23T19:54:32Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-23T19:58:29Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-03-23T19:59:10Z asarch joined #lisp 2021-03-23T20:01:04Z asarch quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-23T20:01:04Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-23T20:01:41Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-23T20:03:52Z warweasle quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 26.1) 2021-03-23T20:04:03Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-23T20:04:43Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-23T20:04:47Z drbluefall quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-23T20:05:39Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-23T20:07:59Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-23T20:08:43Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-23T20:08:56Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-23T20:10:57Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-23T20:11:36Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-23T20:16:06Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-23T20:16:09Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-23T20:16:24Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-23T20:19:14Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T20:20:34Z MrtnDk[m]: Odin- Are you Odin-lap? 2021-03-23T20:21:26Z sauvin_ joined #lisp 2021-03-23T20:21:26Z sauvin_ is now known as Boc 2021-03-23T20:22:39Z MrtnDk[m]: on another nick name 2021-03-23T20:23:58Z Lemniscate quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-23T20:24:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: I right executable documentation... 2021-03-23T20:24:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: I also confuse homophones 2021-03-23T20:30:08Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-23T20:31:19Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-03-23T20:38:52Z sabasedigh joined #lisp 2021-03-23T20:39:15Z sabasedigh: I am on Linux and I need to learn lisp. could you help me? 2021-03-23T20:40:17Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-23T20:40:25Z Josh_2: With what? 2021-03-23T20:40:43Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-23T20:42:36Z sabasedigh: learnin lisp? 2021-03-23T20:45:07Z akoana joined #lisp 2021-03-23T20:48:29Z Josh_2: Well are you a beginner programmer? 2021-03-23T20:49:20Z edgar-rft: sabasedigh: here are tutorials for linux mac and windows -> https://www.cliki.net/Getting%20Started 2021-03-23T20:51:11Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-23T20:54:36Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-23T20:54:43Z raeda: I recommend Portacle to get an IDE (Emacs) and a Common Lisp up and running quickly https://portacle.github.io/ 2021-03-23T21:02:39Z indathrone quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-23T21:04:20Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-23T21:04:41Z jfb4_ is now known as jfb4 2021-03-23T21:05:59Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-23T21:12:08Z cantstanya quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T21:14:04Z cantstanya joined #lisp 2021-03-23T21:20:22Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-23T21:28:26Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-23T21:30:32Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-23T21:42:27Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-23T21:43:09Z hjudt quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-23T21:43:11Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T21:43:40Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-23T21:43:53Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-03-23T21:51:19Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-23T22:03:07Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-23T22:03:57Z DHARMAKAYA joined #lisp 2021-03-23T22:16:09Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-23T22:16:44Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-23T22:23:31Z kevingal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T22:25:07Z srandon111 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T22:32:57Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-23T22:40:54Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-23T22:40:55Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2021-03-23T22:40:55Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-23T22:41:38Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-23T22:41:47Z louis771_ joined #lisp 2021-03-23T22:41:57Z GZJ0X_ joined #lisp 2021-03-23T22:43:05Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-23T22:43:40Z louis771 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-23T22:45:56Z gzj quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-23T22:46:19Z pve_ joined #lisp 2021-03-23T22:46:45Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-23T22:47:38Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-23T22:47:50Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-23T22:48:00Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-23T22:49:06Z pve quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-23T22:50:02Z copec: I'm setting up a new mac install and installed Aquamacs, but elpha is only showing slime-company slime-theme slime-docker slime-volleyball as possible packages to install for emacs. What am I missing? 2021-03-23T22:55:20Z jmercouris: You are missing melpa 2021-03-23T22:56:00Z jmercouris: But that is neither here nor there, please just use Emacsforosx.com build 2021-03-23T22:57:26Z copec: I would like that. I was only using Aquamacs because the X11 emacs was fugly 2021-03-23T22:58:23Z DHARMAKAYA quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-23T22:59:01Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T22:59:27Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-23T23:00:17Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-23T23:01:18Z akoana quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-23T23:05:20Z louis771_ quit (Quit: My M1 has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-23T23:06:09Z OlCe quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-23T23:08:53Z Helmholtz quit (Quit: Helmholtz) 2021-03-23T23:11:22Z pve_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-23T23:14:02Z igemnace joined #lisp 2021-03-23T23:20:56Z jprajzne quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T23:24:20Z fiddlerwoaroof always uses the "railwaycat" build: it has much better polish on macOS than the "official" build 2021-03-23T23:27:29Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T23:35:02Z xsperry quit 2021-03-23T23:35:34Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1) 2021-03-23T23:36:27Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-03-23T23:39:02Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-23T23:47:21Z Krystof quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-23T23:50:16Z asarch joined #lisp 2021-03-23T23:50:28Z cosimone quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-23T23:50:55Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-23T23:50:57Z sabasedigh quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-23T23:51:58Z xsperry joined #lisp 2021-03-23T23:52:03Z sabasedigh joined #lisp 2021-03-23T23:59:11Z raeda: Is ENDP just NULL with a type check? 2021-03-24T00:04:14Z cosimone quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-24T00:04:16Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-24T00:04:55Z aeth: ENDP, NULL, and NOT are used in different contexts 2021-03-24T00:05:37Z aeth: ENDP is for testing to see if you're at the end of a list, i.e. the CDR is ENDP 2021-03-24T00:08:37Z jonatack_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-24T00:15:46Z sm2n quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-24T00:18:22Z sm2n joined #lisp 2021-03-24T00:26:11Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-24T00:28:59Z Alfr: raeda, if you give it something that's not a list, it's UB, signaling an error is only required if that happens in safe code. 2021-03-24T00:33:40Z long4mud joined #lisp 2021-03-24T00:37:59Z raeda: Got it, that makes sense 2021-03-24T00:47:58Z sabasedigh quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-24T00:50:48Z sabasedigh joined #lisp 2021-03-24T00:58:07Z dhil quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-24T01:00:33Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-24T01:01:44Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2021-03-24T01:02:43Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-24T01:02:43Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2021-03-24T01:10:42Z zooey_ is now known as zooey 2021-03-24T01:14:19Z asarch quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-24T01:17:05Z asarch joined #lisp 2021-03-24T01:18:09Z luckless joined #lisp 2021-03-24T01:22:08Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2021-03-24T01:25:41Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-24T01:26:21Z asarch quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-24T01:26:39Z rpg joined #lisp 2021-03-24T01:27:40Z rpg quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-24T01:28:45Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-24T01:28:51Z long4mud quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-24T01:29:36Z long4mud joined #lisp 2021-03-24T01:39:41Z wxie joined #lisp 2021-03-24T01:42:05Z rpg joined #lisp 2021-03-24T01:44:53Z unimog joined #lisp 2021-03-24T01:45:44Z sabasedigh quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-24T01:49:09Z sabasedigh joined #lisp 2021-03-24T01:52:51Z unimog quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-24T01:54:07Z long4mud quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-24T01:54:33Z unimog joined #lisp 2021-03-24T01:55:44Z long4mud joined #lisp 2021-03-24T02:04:02Z unimog quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-24T02:05:21Z CrazyPython quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-24T02:07:53Z cchristiansen joined #lisp 2021-03-24T02:12:41Z phantomics quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-24T02:14:50Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-24T02:19:13Z ChoHag quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-24T02:19:29Z ChoHag joined #lisp 2021-03-24T02:19:45Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-24T02:25:10Z GZJ0X_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T02:25:31Z GZJ0X_ joined #lisp 2021-03-24T02:30:34Z CrazyPython joined #lisp 2021-03-24T02:33:06Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-24T02:35:21Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-24T02:38:03Z johnjay joined #lisp 2021-03-24T02:50:55Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-24T02:51:30Z sabasedigh quit (Changing host) 2021-03-24T02:51:30Z sabasedigh joined #lisp 2021-03-24T03:00:52Z CrazyPython quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-24T03:03:05Z Bike quit (Quit: sleep) 2021-03-24T03:03:23Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-24T03:03:53Z semz joined #lisp 2021-03-24T03:13:08Z GZJ0X_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T03:13:29Z GZJ0X_ joined #lisp 2021-03-24T03:14:30Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-24T03:16:09Z marusich joined #lisp 2021-03-24T03:21:15Z SP41 quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-03-24T03:25:50Z prxq_ joined #lisp 2021-03-24T03:26:29Z ikrabbe|2 joined #lisp 2021-03-24T03:26:59Z phantomics joined #lisp 2021-03-24T03:28:12Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-24T03:29:47Z ikrabbe quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-24T03:29:51Z prxq quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-24T03:31:11Z semz joined #lisp 2021-03-24T03:31:11Z semz quit (Changing host) 2021-03-24T03:31:11Z semz joined #lisp 2021-03-24T03:31:36Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-24T03:32:51Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-24T03:33:39Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-03-24T03:38:04Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-24T03:39:45Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-24T03:40:11Z perrier-jouet quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-03-24T03:40:53Z marusich quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-24T03:51:48Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-24T03:56:29Z marusich joined #lisp 2021-03-24T04:00:26Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2021-03-24T04:01:31Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-24T04:02:00Z Alfr is now known as Guest74534 2021-03-24T04:02:04Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-03-24T04:03:27Z phantomics: Morning beach 2021-03-24T04:04:48Z Guest74534 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-24T04:08:14Z sabasedigh_ joined #lisp 2021-03-24T04:08:52Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-24T04:10:15Z sabasedigh quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-24T04:11:43Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-03-24T04:12:17Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-24T04:12:43Z asarch joined #lisp 2021-03-24T04:17:36Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-24T04:20:13Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-24T04:22:53Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-24T04:24:25Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-24T04:25:52Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-24T04:26:52Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-24T04:26:57Z toorevitimirp quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-24T04:31:46Z rpg joined #lisp 2021-03-24T04:35:31Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-24T04:37:45Z rpg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-24T04:39:12Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-24T04:39:40Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-24T04:43:30Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-24T04:44:28Z sabasedigh_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-24T04:47:07Z epony quit (Quit: upgrade) 2021-03-24T04:50:55Z epony joined #lisp 2021-03-24T04:51:27Z remby joined #lisp 2021-03-24T04:54:00Z Iolo quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5+deb4 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-24T04:55:58Z Iolo joined #lisp 2021-03-24T04:56:29Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T05:03:08Z asdflkj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-24T05:05:51Z DHARMAKAYA joined #lisp 2021-03-24T05:18:30Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-03-24T05:21:49Z no-defun-allowed joined #lisp 2021-03-24T05:22:08Z pranavats quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-24T05:22:25Z no-defun-allowed: What options do I have for configuring an ASDF system to load one module if some hardware feature is detected, and another if it is not? 2021-03-24T05:22:50Z contrapunctus quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-24T05:22:58Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-24T05:23:36Z epony quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-24T05:23:51Z no-defun-allowed: Actually, I may use separate systems, but I see there is a (:feature feature-expression dependency-def) in the defsystem grammar. 2021-03-24T05:25:57Z asdflkj joined #lisp 2021-03-24T05:35:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: no-defun-allowed: yeah, I've used that a couple times, mostly to hide code from lispworks and abcl 2021-03-24T05:35:42Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-24T05:36:06Z no-defun-allowed: fiddlerwoaroof: Now I realise that I would have to push a feature first, which complicates things. 2021-03-24T05:36:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, although you can do that with :defsystem-depends-on 2021-03-24T05:36:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: :defsystem-depends-on (hardware-features) 2021-03-24T05:37:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: And then have that system setup *features* when its loaded 2021-03-24T05:37:34Z no-defun-allowed: Right, thanks. 2021-03-24T05:37:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: You might also be able to do something like :perform (prepare-op (...) (push :foo *features*)) 2021-03-24T05:38:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: hmm, maybe :perform (prepare-op :after ...) 2021-03-24T05:40:14Z vaporatorius quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-24T05:45:47Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-03-24T05:52:58Z epony joined #lisp 2021-03-24T05:57:01Z _whitelogger_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T05:59:11Z _whitelogger_ joined #lisp 2021-03-24T06:01:19Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-03-24T06:02:47Z saturn2: am i allowed to pass #'call-next-method to another function, and will that function calling it have the same effect as calling it within the method body? 2021-03-24T06:03:16Z no-defun-allowed: I have done that before, and it will work as you expect. 2021-03-24T06:03:28Z saturn2: cool thanks 2021-03-24T06:03:31Z beach: saturn2: Yes, I do it in SICL. 2021-03-24T06:04:45Z beach: CALL-NEXT-METHOD is basically just an FLET that wraps the body of the method. 2021-03-24T06:08:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: Interesting, that's a sort of clever idea 2021-03-24T06:09:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm not sure what I'd use it for 2021-03-24T06:10:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: I did something sort of like that once where I had an :around method spawn a thread to run the primary method in 2021-03-24T06:10:27Z wxie joined #lisp 2021-03-24T06:10:41Z beach: For application code, there is probably not much use for it. In SICL I use it so that the method will call an ordinary function, and perhaps have that ordinary function executed by the host during bootstrapping. 2021-03-24T06:10:51Z no-defun-allowed: The caching-mixin in the Netfarm server binds #'call-next-method to a dynamic variable, so that the Cacle cache library can use it as a source function. 2021-03-24T06:11:07Z beach: Interesting! 2021-03-24T06:11:26Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-24T06:11:33Z no-defun-allowed: See around https://gitlab.com/cal-coop/netfarm/netfarm-networking/-/blob/master/Code/Server/Databases/caching.lisp#L17-42 2021-03-24T06:12:55Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-03-24T06:13:47Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-03-24T06:16:12Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-24T06:19:34Z saturn2: fiddlerwoaroof: i have a generic function that sets up dynamic bindings related to an object and calls a function, but that object can contain other objects which need their own bindings 2021-03-24T06:20:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: It makes sense, I'm mostly commenting because I hadn't considered using c-n-m that way 2021-03-24T06:21:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm sort of curious now if any other programming language allows a method to let some other piece of code decide whether the superclass's implementation of the method will be invoked 2021-03-24T06:23:23Z beach: Long ago, I stopped contemplating why other languages introduce all the limitations they do. 2021-03-24T06:25:10Z beach: Common Lisp is the only language I know where the creators seem to have deliberately pushed the frontiers as far as they could without risking the possibility that the compiler could not do its job. 2021-03-24T06:25:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: Would storing c-n-m in a slot and calling it in an :after method be permissible for a conforming program? 2021-03-24T06:26:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, most programming languages I've come across seem to be designed to prevent programemrs from doing things: Java/Go more explicitly than most 2021-03-24T06:26:44Z no-defun-allowed: I don't think call-next-method can cross method boundaries. 2021-03-24T06:27:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs call-next-method 2021-03-24T06:27:07Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_call_n.htm 2021-03-24T06:27:14Z no-defun-allowed: "The function call-next-method [...] can only be used within the body of a method defined by a method-defining form." 2021-03-24T06:28:28Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: I can kind of understand that philosophy if the rest of the language makes it easy to make mistakes, like if the language uses manual memory management, it makes sense to try to make it hard to have memory leaks. But it is usually a better idea to remove the initial problem then. 2021-03-24T06:28:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: Maybe I misunderstand the question, I thought the question was about situations where c-n-m might be called outside the dynamic-extent of a method 2021-03-24T06:29:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think I'm wrong 2021-03-24T06:31:02Z beach: I think by using automatic memory management and strong dynamic typing, Common Lisp has the right idea for avoiding such mistakes. So there is no reason to make it harder to use other programming techniques. 2021-03-24T06:31:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: The interesting thing is that Java and Go are both GCed langauges 2021-03-24T06:32:25Z beach: Sure, it is not a sufficient condition. 2021-03-24T06:32:47Z beach: The creators must also give some thought to this "pushing the frontiers" idea. 2021-03-24T06:33:05Z asarch: What can you do if two different packages have the same function name? Let's say foo:baz and bar:baz, what can you do in such cases? 2021-03-24T06:33:23Z mfiano: call them by foo:baz and bar:baz? 2021-03-24T06:33:25Z beach: asarch: I think you have been told in the past not to :USE arbitrary packages. 2021-03-24T06:33:55Z asarch: Note: you don't own those packages, you just (ql:quickload :foo) and (ql:quickload :bar) 2021-03-24T06:34:16Z beach: asarch: Then why do you have a problem? 2021-03-24T06:34:16Z mfiano: The only package you should :USE is :COMMON-LISP, unless you know what you're doing and can deal with the consequences of breakage and the effects it has on others reading your code 2021-03-24T06:34:28Z beach: asarch: They are in different packages, so there is no conflict. 2021-03-24T06:34:29Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-24T06:34:57Z asarch: And the (use-package :foo) (use-package :bar) 2021-03-24T06:35:01Z beach: asarch: Besides, Quickload loads systems, not packages. 2021-03-24T06:35:05Z mfiano: Do not use-package 2021-03-24T06:35:18Z beach: asarch: DON'T USE ARBITRARY PACKAGES! 2021-03-24T06:35:25Z beach: :USE, I mean. 2021-03-24T06:35:47Z beach: asarch: I am pretty sure we have been through this issue before. 2021-03-24T06:35:54Z mfiano: Yes, we have. 2021-03-24T06:36:13Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-24T06:36:35Z asarch: So, instead of just (baz) I should alwasy (foo:baz)? 2021-03-24T06:36:54Z beach: Yes. 2021-03-24T06:37:27Z asarch: Ok 2021-03-24T06:37:54Z DHARMAKAYA quit (Quit: Turning off a portion of this simulation.) 2021-03-24T06:37:56Z srandon111 joined #lisp 2021-03-24T06:37:58Z mfiano: Packages are good documentation. THink how hard it would be to understand a package that :USE'd 10 other packages. 2021-03-24T06:38:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: Or, you can (:import #:foo #:baz) in your DEFPACKAGE and refer to bar:baz explicitly 2021-03-24T06:38:12Z asarch: I just tried to split my HTML generator into small pieces but, once again, the function names... 2021-03-24T06:39:03Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-24T06:39:13Z beach: I agree with mfiano. Understanding code without seeing from which package a symbol comes, is much harder. 2021-03-24T06:39:59Z beach: But then, as we know, asarch does not seem concerned about other people understanding the code. 2021-03-24T06:40:26Z mfiano: If it's closed code, he should care about his future self, then. 2021-03-24T06:40:49Z flip214: beach: yeah, right. phoe: also right. thanks, everybody! 2021-03-24T06:40:53Z asarch: I mean, what if you just (:use :foo :bar: :spam) for your project and it turns that some other people wrote (foo:baz) and (foo:baz)? 2021-03-24T06:41:19Z asarch: I mean, (foo:baz) and (bar:baz) 2021-03-24T06:41:22Z mfiano: :USE brings in external symbols 2021-03-24T06:41:26Z wxie quit (Quit: wxie) 2021-03-24T06:41:37Z wxie joined #lisp 2021-03-24T06:41:46Z mfiano: exported* 2021-03-24T06:41:46Z beach: mfiano: I totally agree. My lousy memory makes me that other person only a few days later. 2021-03-24T06:42:29Z beach: asarch: I don't understand your question. 2021-03-24T06:42:58Z mfiano: If you are using :USE for some package FOO, and the author of FOO changes its exports, your code has potential symbol conflicts without you doing anything wrong (except the very wrong initial use of :USE) 2021-03-24T06:43:38Z asarch: Yeah 2021-03-24T06:44:00Z asarch: That's why always exists foo and foo2 versions of the same module 2021-03-24T06:44:04Z mfiano: And when I say :USE, I mean the defpackage option or its functional counterpart, use-package 2021-03-24T06:44:57Z asarch: And actually my question was: "what if the author of the foo package exports the same function names that the author of the bar package also exports?" 2021-03-24T06:45:14Z beach: asarch: No problem. They are in different packages. 2021-03-24T06:45:16Z mfiano: Nothing bad would happen. 2021-03-24T06:45:22Z asarch: "What can you do in that cases?" 2021-03-24T06:45:37Z mfiano: The only time there is ever a conflict is when interning symbols into the same package, which is what USE and IMPORT do 2021-03-24T06:45:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: asarch: if you insist on using :USE, you then have to :shadowing-import-from one of the symbols 2021-03-24T06:45:54Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-24T06:45:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: To resolve the conflict 2021-03-24T06:46:01Z beach: asarch: The problem happens only when someone tries to :USE two such packages. So don't do that. 2021-03-24T06:46:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, this is basically why you don't use :USE 2021-03-24T06:46:28Z asarch: Thank you! 2021-03-24T06:47:03Z asarch: I thought I could (use-package :foo) and (use-package :bar) 2021-03-24T06:47:21Z beach: Now you know better. 2021-03-24T06:49:01Z beach: asarch: I think it is time for you to "grow up" as a developer, and start contemplating the consequences of some of the practices that you may have taken for granted in the past. 2021-03-24T06:49:15Z asarch: Yeah, I know 2021-03-24T06:49:38Z asarch: I just tear off the page of my notes where it says I can use (use-package) 2021-03-24T06:50:29Z asarch: And writing a new one saying "Don't use (use-package)" 2021-03-24T06:50:52Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-24T06:51:37Z Alfr: asarch, there's also package-local-nicknames, if you're willing to depend on that extension. 2021-03-24T06:51:39Z saturn2: if you want to avoid typing the package name over and over, you can use :import-from 2021-03-24T06:52:03Z beach: asarch: If you rely on a list of "do"s and "don't"s without understanding why, you won't "grow up". 2021-03-24T06:52:21Z asarch: Two days ago I wrote: "Put the class into its package so you can protect its protocol from outside" 2021-03-24T06:52:33Z asarch: I also write the explanation 2021-03-24T06:52:42Z beach: That's progress. 2021-03-24T06:52:48Z White_Flame: use-package can be okay if you're interactively testing what you might want to be visible, from a temporary repl usage 2021-03-24T06:52:51Z mfiano: Everything exists for a reason, and it has its uses, though they are rare. I would document your learning experience with reasoning, so your future self knows why, otherwise you are following these rules for no reason and won't know that the tool you need exists later when you "grow up" 2021-03-24T06:52:51Z asarch: That's why I always ask "why" 2021-03-24T06:54:21Z cchristiansen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T06:54:34Z White_Flame: also remember that when it took forever on 80s hardware to rebuild the state of an image, you had to mutate your existing state, as opposed to simply editing your definitions and restarting 2021-03-24T06:55:06Z asarch: Yeah, those were the days... 2021-03-24T06:55:15Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2021-03-24T06:55:16Z White_Flame: now with things fast, we can relegate many of those environmental mutators to the past 2021-03-24T06:55:28Z mfiano: asarch: Also, reeading your questions, I am curious if you know what a package does. Do you? 2021-03-24T06:56:05Z asarch: As a way to encapsulate functions? 2021-03-24T06:56:11Z mfiano: No 2021-03-24T06:56:27Z mfiano: Packages only contain symbols 2021-03-24T06:56:48Z asarch: Also as a name space 2021-03-24T06:56:51Z asarch: ? 2021-03-24T06:56:52Z mfiano: So I was right. You seemed to be confused about "functions in packages", and "quickloading packages", both of which are impossible. 2021-03-24T06:57:22Z asarch: Oh :-( 2021-03-24T06:57:23Z mfiano: The only purpose a package serves is as a container of symbol objects. 2021-03-24T06:57:45Z White_Flame: in other words, ONLY as a name space 2021-03-24T06:58:06Z mfiano: Symbols have function cells, but they have other cells too. And functions don't even need to be associated with a symbol. 2021-03-24T07:01:11Z saturn2: it's annoying that other languages have standardized on "packages" to mean systems, and "modules" to mean packages 2021-03-24T07:01:51Z White_Flame: I think "namespace" is most appropriate if lisp packages were to be renamed 2021-03-24T07:02:02Z White_Flame: I know C++ uses that naming, not sure how many others do 2021-03-24T07:02:37Z asarch: Common Lisp should be the first and *only* programming language to be taught 2021-03-24T07:02:49Z saturn2: amen 2021-03-24T07:02:52Z mfiano: If it were to be renamed, it should be called what it is most resembling of in other languages' (compilers): a symbol table 2021-03-24T07:03:12Z jonatack_ quit (Quit: jonatack_) 2021-03-24T07:03:43Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-03-24T07:03:49Z asarch: I will write a book with all my notes: "The Wrong Way to Use Common Lisp" :-P 2021-03-24T07:04:10Z asarch: Or, "Common Lisp: The Wrong Way" 2021-03-24T07:04:36Z frost-lab quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-24T07:05:40Z pve joined #lisp 2021-03-24T07:05:45Z mfiano: The Right Way to (:USE :COMMON-LISP) 2021-03-24T07:06:02Z asarch: That would be the chapter 5 2021-03-24T07:07:29Z White_Flame: The Left Way to :COMMON-LISP :USE, Forth Edition 2021-03-24T07:07:31Z mfiano: Speaking of books, I believe the first recipe (IIRC) of Common Lisp Recipes is what you need to be reading, asarch 2021-03-24T07:08:30Z asarch: "Common Lisp is such a POWERFUL programming language that it even lets you to use it in the wrong way. Join me to this journey of dont's of this programming language" 2021-03-24T07:08:35Z mfiano: Yes, first in that book is "Understanding the Role of Packages and the Symbol Nomenclature", for good reason 2021-03-24T07:08:39Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-24T07:08:48Z theothor` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T07:10:28Z louis771 quit (Quit: My M1 has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-24T07:15:15Z Inoperable quit (Quit: All your buffer are belong to us!) 2021-03-24T07:15:17Z phantomics: Hey, a question about arrays. A while back I discovered that a multithreading function that assigns to elements of an array that are less than 8 bits wide can cause problems, since 1 byte is the smallest addressable amount of memory and if two threads try to assign to elements within the same byte one assignment will clobber the other 2021-03-24T07:15:32Z White_Flame: I once opened the CL package lock in SBCL so that I could redefine EQUALP. Does that count as a wrong way? 2021-03-24T07:15:34Z metehan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T07:15:37Z mfiano: White_Flame: Forth Edition :) 2021-03-24T07:15:49Z metehan joined #lisp 2021-03-24T07:15:53Z asarch: Is there "Common Lisp for Dummies"? 2021-03-24T07:16:19Z phantomics: I've remedied this for 4-bit element arrays by building a loop that assigns each pair of elements in the same thread, so that each byte is guaranteed not to be written by multiple threads 2021-03-24T07:16:26Z mister_m quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-24T07:16:48Z mister_m joined #lisp 2021-03-24T07:16:56Z White_Flame: phantomics: there's always compare-and-swap extensions 2021-03-24T07:16:58Z mfiano: White_Flame: It's hard to say, but in most cases a shadowing of the symbol would be "right-er" 2021-03-24T07:17:10Z phantomics: However, when I try this with 2-bit integer arrays, I still see collisions. For the 2-bit arrays each multithreaded iteration handles 4 elements 2021-03-24T07:17:47Z mfiano: Which implementation? 2021-03-24T07:18:06Z mgr_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-24T07:18:31Z stylewarning: phantomics: honestly I think it’s best to not rely so heavily on the implementation’s internal representation and to build something yourself, if you can be hassled 2021-03-24T07:18:40Z remby: asarch: practical common lisp looks pretty friendly 2021-03-24T07:19:10Z White_Flame: land of lisp is for noobs 2021-03-24T07:19:16Z phantomics: stylewarning: like implementing arrays with a C library and then interfacing via CFFI? 2021-03-24T07:19:17Z ikrabbe|2 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-24T07:19:28Z mfiano: SBCL has an "everything is volatile" memory model. This means with max speed (expt (aref array i) 2) is preferred over (* (aref array i) (aref array i)), if you want it to make some optimizations (and not receive compiler notes). 2021-03-24T07:20:03Z mfiano: It doesn't attempt to prove that 2 threads will not be making separate reads 2021-03-24T07:20:13Z White_Flame: or (let ((x (aref ...)) (* x x)) 2021-03-24T07:20:14Z no-defun-allowed: Is there a point to working with less than 8-bit element types? 2021-03-24T07:20:14Z no-defun-allowed: Any loads and writes still require a lot of masking, unless you use SIMD-within-a-register head-hurting techniques. 2021-03-24T07:20:21Z no-defun-allowed: beach: Reminds me, doing SIMD with general purpose registers is sometimes called "SIMD within a register" or SWAR. 2021-03-24T07:20:50Z White_Flame: ldb and bitvectors help 2021-03-24T07:20:55Z beach: no-defun-allowed: I see. 2021-03-24T07:20:56Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-24T07:21:07Z stylewarning: phantomics: you could allocate foreign memory (if you’re ok freeing it yourself), or you could choose a very safe data structure (like an (unsigned-byte 8) simple-array) 2021-03-24T07:21:11Z mgr_ joined #lisp 2021-03-24T07:21:28Z remby quit (Quit: remby) 2021-03-24T07:21:49Z phantomics: no-defun-allowed: there are plenty of situations where binary arrays are used, also sub-8-bit ints are used in some situations 2021-03-24T07:21:50Z stylewarning: By “safe” I mean most compiler implementers won’t do something too goofy 2021-03-24T07:22:06Z phantomics: I use them to do work with indexed color images with less than 256 colors 2021-03-24T07:22:12Z White_Flame: phantomics: are you ever doing non-byte-aligned multi-bit updates? 2021-03-24T07:22:26Z no-defun-allowed: phantomics: Do you do anything allowing you to not have to mask and shift around every AREF on sub-8-bit integer arrays? 2021-03-24T07:23:02Z phantomics: White_Flame: not now but in the future yes 2021-03-24T07:23:15Z White_Flame: erm, updates that span multiple bytes 2021-03-24T07:23:31Z White_Flame: yeah, that would be harder. For plain bytes, CAS would be fine 2021-03-24T07:23:56Z phantomics: no-defun-allowed: there are many operations in April where SWAR and such techniques would make sense, I haven't gotten into it yet 2021-03-24T07:24:10Z White_Flame: sbcl has sb-ext:atomic-update which might be even more approraite for your usage, as it takes care of the retry for you 2021-03-24T07:24:16Z no-defun-allowed: Why even bother with a CAS if we only expect one writer to touch one element (unless that is not the case)? 2021-03-24T07:24:16Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2021-03-24T07:24:40Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-24T07:24:50Z White_Flame: I'm assuming 1 thread is updating bits 0/1, and another thread is updating bits 2/3, as described 2021-03-24T07:24:57Z stylewarning: no-defun-allowed: the problem is that the API exposes one element as actually a segment of one element 2021-03-24T07:24:59Z no-defun-allowed: It appears that would be the case, supposing that we do one operation at a time - oh, okay then. 2021-03-24T07:25:01Z phantomics: White_Flame: that could help, but I'd prefer to be compatible across impls 2021-03-24T07:25:11Z sabasedigh joined #lisp 2021-03-24T07:25:15Z pranavats joined #lisp 2021-03-24T07:25:18Z White_Flame: threading is always implementation-specific 2021-03-24T07:25:25Z White_Flame: but there should be cas portability libs 2021-03-24T07:25:36Z mfiano: White_Flame: Shinmera's atomics makes that a bit more portable 2021-03-24T07:25:39Z phantomics: It's not clear to me why collisions are happening when the system I set up ensures that each byte is only changable by a single thread 2021-03-24T07:25:47Z mfiano: ACL, clasp, and ECL seem to also have atomic-update 2021-03-24T07:25:53Z phantomics: i.e. no two threads will ever be trying to write the same byte 2021-03-24T07:26:05Z phantomics: And it works for 4-bit arrays, but not 2 or 1-bit 2021-03-24T07:26:16Z White_Flame: that's likely coincidental that 4-bit works 2021-03-24T07:26:18Z saturn2: probably the implementation is loading a whole machine register instead of a byte 2021-03-24T07:26:43Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-03-24T07:26:45Z phantomics: Ok, so loading 64 bits at a time 2021-03-24T07:26:46Z no-defun-allowed: But then I think having multiple threads try to CAS a place is going to be slower than using larger element types and non-synchronising writes (or SWAR of course). 2021-03-24T07:27:15Z White_Flame: depends on how randomly accessed it is 2021-03-24T07:27:18Z saturn2: i guess implementations ought to specify how you're allowed to access arrays from different threads 2021-03-24T07:27:36Z phantomics: SWAR would be preferable, is there a straightforward way to use it in CL? I asked about it before, someone suggested using CFFI since there's no CL-native way to address an array with varying element sizes 2021-03-24T07:27:40Z stylewarning: phantomics: are these SIMPLE-ARRAYs with no funny upgraded array element type? 2021-03-24T07:28:13Z phantomics: Yeah, (SIMPLE-ARRAY (UNSIGNED-BYTE 2) ...) 2021-03-24T07:28:25Z White_Flame: no-defun-allowed: if you're dealing with 2-bit entries, going full slot for each entry means 32x the cache pressure 2021-03-24T07:29:02Z no-defun-allowed: Currently I have been using SB-SYS:VECTOR-SAP and SAP-REF- to get groups of elements at a time in some tests. 2021-03-24T07:29:15Z sabasedigh quit (Changing host) 2021-03-24T07:29:15Z sabasedigh joined #lisp 2021-03-24T07:29:42Z phantomics: Too bad it's limited to SBCL 2021-03-24T07:29:56Z stylewarning: phantomics: have you looked at the disassembly to see why the 2 bit thing hasn’t worked? 2021-03-24T07:30:10Z Inoperable joined #lisp 2021-03-24T07:30:21Z no-defun-allowed: White_Flame: Yes, but updating bytes (which FWIW is 4× the pressure) would not require synchronisation. 2021-03-24T07:31:01Z White_Flame: ah right, but still :) 2021-03-24T07:31:32Z phantomics: stylewarning: no, don't know assembly but planning to so I can add SIMD support 2021-03-24T07:31:47Z saturn2: cffi has with-pointer-to-vector-data which lets you access the contents of a lisp array as raw memory 2021-03-24T07:31:49Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, if you have large enough arrays, then the space overhead begins to hurt. But, having messed around with approximately far too much concurrent stuff, CASing hurts more. 2021-03-24T07:32:24Z no-defun-allowed: Oh, hey, I think writing to an (unsigned-byte 2) array does attempt to write 32 bits at a time on SBCL. 2021-03-24T07:32:50Z stylewarning: phantomics: anyway, maybe you ought to try making your thread stuff less granular, try 8 bytes per thread instead of 1 2021-03-24T07:32:51Z White_Flame: this is image-based stuff, so the arrays are likely large. But what's the access pattern? 2021-03-24T07:33:11Z no-defun-allowed: See line 15 of https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2351#2351 2021-03-24T07:33:18Z phantomics: I see, so the cache pressure may be causing the issue here 2021-03-24T07:33:24Z epony quit (Quit: QUIT) 2021-03-24T07:33:37Z no-defun-allowed: MOV [RDX+1], RBX ; RBX is in fact a 64-bit register, not 32. 2021-03-24T07:33:39Z White_Flame: cache pressure would be purely a speed thing, not a correctness thing 2021-03-24T07:33:42Z stylewarning: phantomics: maybe even 64 bytes per thread. Why not? 2021-03-24T07:34:06Z phantomics: stylewarning: I'll give it a try 2021-03-24T07:34:33Z phantomics: In fact one of my future dev plans has been to add a "tuning" system for April to find the sweet spot for thread granularity on a given system 2021-03-24T07:34:48Z no-defun-allowed: no-defun-allowed's 10 second x86-64 assembler tutorial: MOV a, b sets the value of A to B, a name ending with H or L is an 8 bit register, a name ending in X is 16, a name starting with E is 32, a name starting with R is 64 2021-03-24T07:35:01Z stylewarning: “512 bits ought to be enough for anybody.” 2021-03-24T07:35:05Z saturn2: i would expect giving each thread a whole cache line to work with would be a lot faster anyway 2021-03-24T07:35:18Z frost-lab48 joined #lisp 2021-03-24T07:35:19Z no-defun-allowed: (No refunds if it takes more than 10 seconds to type or parse that.) 2021-03-24T07:35:33Z phantomics: Basically it would brute force all the different functions with different thresholds for thread granularity until it found the optimal thresholds for each function, then store that info and use it in subsequent invocations 2021-03-24T07:35:37Z White_Flame: if you're walking across the whole image linearly with N threads, then split the image into N chunks first and let each rip independently 2021-03-24T07:35:53Z stylewarning: phantomics: I’ve wanted to do such a project for a quantum computer simulator 2021-03-24T07:36:34Z no-defun-allowed: But then it also appears that (unsigned-byte 4) writes write a whole 64-bit word too. 2021-03-24T07:36:48Z surabax joined #lisp 2021-03-24T07:36:55Z stylewarning: no-defun-allowed: that’s why I suggest 64 bytes 2021-03-24T07:37:17Z no-defun-allowed: However, (unsigned-byte 7) does 8-bit writes. 2021-03-24T07:37:19Z stylewarning: no-defun-allowed: who’s gonna fetch >512 bit chunks any time soon 2021-03-24T07:37:21Z no-defun-allowed: stylewarning: Yeah, fair enough then. 2021-03-24T07:37:33Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-03-24T07:38:11Z phantomics: no-defun-allowed: that's interesting, wonder why it uses the big register for those small elements 2021-03-24T07:38:17Z no-defun-allowed: Following the jokes about cooking with AVX-512, we'll have to find a 1024-bit vector processor and use April to fry an egg with that. 2021-03-24T07:38:54Z frost-lab quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-24T07:38:57Z phantomics: stylewarning: do you mean 64 bytes or 64 bits? Loading 8 bytes at a time should fill those 64-bit words 2021-03-24T07:39:02Z no-defun-allowed: Sadly, no one will attempt either for another 5 years or so. 2021-03-24T07:39:56Z stylewarning: phantomics: bytes, only because some joker will fetch 512 bits through some weird AVX magic one day 2021-03-24T07:40:14Z White_Flame: no-defun-allowed: they both seem packed to me, at first glance: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2352#2352 2021-03-24T07:40:56Z no-defun-allowed: White_Flame: Yes, but look at what is generated for (SETF AREF). SBCL writes (and also reads) whole words at a time. 2021-03-24T07:41:13Z White_Flame: ah 2021-03-24T07:41:52Z White_Flame: yep 2021-03-24T07:42:35Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2021-03-24T07:43:30Z White_Flame: and (unsigned-byte 3) just does the same as 4, to avoid any cross-word fields 2021-03-24T07:43:43Z phantomics: Using SWAR techniques is appealing, but what puts me off trying no-defun's method above is portability 2021-03-24T07:44:01Z phantomics: I'll see how increasing the granularity works 2021-03-24T07:44:14Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-03-24T07:44:29Z White_Flame: what process are you performing over the image? 2021-03-24T07:44:47Z phantomics: White_Flame: are you asking me? 2021-03-24T07:44:53Z White_Flame: yes 2021-03-24T07:45:33Z White_Flame: in terms of the access patterns that each operation will perform 2021-03-24T07:45:46Z phantomics: This isn't for a particular image algo, this is for functions within the April language. They do a variety of things, like rotating arrays, sectioning arrays, splitting a higher rank array into a vector of sub-arrays, stuff like that 2021-03-24T07:46:13Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-24T07:46:18Z White_Flame: ah, I thought you had mentioned bitmap images above 2021-03-24T07:46:22Z phantomics: Usually the access pattern has a function iterating over an input array, performing arithmetic on its row-major index and then assigning the results to an output array 2021-03-24T07:46:36Z phantomics: I did, that's an example of something I've used April to do 2021-03-24T07:46:45Z phantomics: The particular case I'm testing is the rotation function 2021-03-24T07:46:51Z no-defun-allowed: Still, you might want to talk to heisig in the near future, because he is planning how a stable SIMD library might work. 2021-03-24T07:47:19Z phantomics: Example: (april "2⌽1 2 3 4 5 6") => #(3 4 5 6 1 2) 2021-03-24T07:47:40Z phantomics: I've already spoken with him, sb-simd may be a solution 2021-03-24T07:47:59Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-03-24T07:49:02Z White_Flame: so, you should likely still partition the threads by the output array, as that would hope to have the least average contention 2021-03-24T07:49:17Z White_Flame: eg, for N threads, each gets 1/Nth of the output array to work on 2021-03-24T07:49:34Z phantomics: That's right, threads are partitioned by the output array 2021-03-24T07:49:35Z White_Flame: instead of some fixed granularity 2021-03-24T07:50:29Z phantomics: But not in the way you describe, I've been partitioning it with (pdotimes) in lparallel, and for a 2-bit array, each iteration of pdotimes handles 4 elements in the array 2021-03-24T07:51:55Z White_Flame: hmm, for the simplicity of each iteration, that's probably a pretty overhead-heavy way to go 2021-03-24T07:52:04Z White_Flame: (if performance is a concern) 2021-03-24T07:53:06Z phantomics: If partitioning the array by thread is faster I'll try that 2021-03-24T07:53:13Z no-defun-allowed: "The `parts' option divides the integer range into `parts' number of parts. Default is (kernel-worker-count)." Maybe you lose out on loop unrolling, and an additional function call per iteration, but it's better than I expected. 2021-03-24T07:53:39Z White_Flame: awareness of the size array to deal with small arrays synchronously or with fewer arrays woudl seem to make sense if it's done heavily as well 2021-03-24T07:53:53Z White_Flame: sorry, I'm tired: 2021-03-24T07:54:09Z phantomics: White_Flame: yes, that's the tuning concept I mentioned 2021-03-24T07:54:13Z no-defun-allowed: That's true, yes. 2021-03-24T07:54:15Z White_Flame: awareness of the size of the array, dealing with small arrays synchronously or with fewer threads, would seem to make sense if it's done heavily as well 2021-03-24T07:54:21Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-24T07:54:46Z phantomics: I doubt it's efficient to rotate a 36-element array with 12 threads each handling 3 elements, but where the ideal threshold lies depends on the system 2021-03-24T07:55:30Z phantomics: So a way to benchmark that for the system and then use it for subsequent invocations would help 2021-03-24T07:55:38Z no-defun-allowed: Admittedly I just guess those things. I take it you tune each operation separately? 2021-03-24T07:55:39Z White_Flame: but clearly, each thread accessing a lock on the array would be the right (wrong) way to handle contention ;) 2021-03-24T07:56:13Z phantomics: I'm not tuning yet, but the idea would be to test each operation separately since they all have different overhead per iteration 2021-03-24T07:57:23Z hjudt joined #lisp 2021-03-24T07:57:33Z no-defun-allowed: (When I wrote a parallel merge-sort, I found (on a 6 core/12 thread machine), whichever was larger of splitting into 16 worker threads or 8192 elements per worker was approximately ideal.) 2021-03-24T07:58:50Z phantomics: Another interesting note: on my 3900X with 12 cores/24 threads, the largest speed increase I can get from singlethreaded is 12x on some functions, leading me to believe that CL array ops cannot be dual-threaded in a core 2021-03-24T08:00:19Z no-defun-allowed: I found some speedup with up to 12 threads on concurrent hash table tests. 2021-03-24T08:00:35Z White_Flame: do you know that that's specific to CL array ops, and doesn't also occur in other languages? 2021-03-24T08:00:51Z HDurer_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T08:01:04Z White_Flame: you're probably going to be hitting load/store saturation 2021-03-24T08:01:19Z phantomics: White_Flame: nope, just citing experience with CL 2021-03-24T08:02:21Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2021-03-24T08:02:38Z MrtnDk[m]: So you can code SBCL in multiple maybe threads, or what are you saying? 2021-03-24T08:02:40Z no-defun-allowed: If you squint hard enough at the resulting graphs, there is one line going from 1 to 6 cores, with a slope we'll call S, and then another from 6 to 12 with a slope of around 0.4 S. 2021-03-24T08:02:41Z no-defun-allowed: And the same occurs with Cliff Click's table and his benchmark suite in Java. 2021-03-24T08:05:29Z no-defun-allowed uploaded an image: (71KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/yuuthrupcskxagTVTjKIiAgq/cht-benchmark-annotated.png > 2021-03-24T08:06:16Z no-defun-allowed: phantomics: Here is a highly scientific analysis of such results. But if you use only 12 threads, do you get a 12× speedup? That is not the case here sadly. 2021-03-24T08:07:19Z beach: MrtnDk[m]: Not sure what you are asking, but all modern Common Lisp implementations allow for an application to use multiple threads within a single Common Lisp image. 2021-03-24T08:08:38Z phantomics: Thanks no-defun, is there an accompanying article? I found this presentation by Cliff Click but that doesn't seem to cover it: https://www.azul.com/files/Cliff_Click_Art_of_Java_Benchmarking.pdf 2021-03-24T08:08:53Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-03-24T08:11:44Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-24T08:11:58Z epony joined #lisp 2021-03-24T08:12:54Z no-defun-allowed: I usually refer to the presentation (as I didn't hear of an article) but it's not relevant to the performance effects of hyperthreading. 2021-03-24T08:13:34Z dhil joined #lisp 2021-03-24T08:19:53Z phantomics: Cool, hashing is another frontier of exploration for April's search and filtering functions. Dyalog uses many different hash types for elements depending on the array type 2021-03-24T08:20:19Z no-defun-allowed: phantomics: An interesting read though. The last third or so of this presentation also discusses speeding up a verification tool with lots of cores. 2021-03-24T08:22:47Z HDurer joined #lisp 2021-03-24T08:24:09Z jello_pudding quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-24T08:24:12Z aindilis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-24T08:27:00Z _whitelogger_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T08:27:03Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T08:27:31Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-24T08:28:36Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-24T08:29:03Z Major_Biscuit joined #lisp 2021-03-24T08:31:15Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2021-03-24T08:36:38Z theothor` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T08:38:59Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-03-24T08:42:35Z igemnace quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T08:45:19Z sauvin_ joined #lisp 2021-03-24T08:45:36Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-03-24T08:48:02Z Boc quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-24T08:50:04Z sabasedigh: ON Linux; Could one grab system info such as process id and cpu/ram usage with lisp? 2021-03-24T08:50:16Z sabasedigh: kind of system programming 2021-03-24T08:50:54Z no-defun-allowed: Almost certainly yes, but I don't know where you would grab that off the top of my head. 2021-03-24T08:51:15Z epony: sysctl 2021-03-24T08:51:29Z epony: linuzes have /proc too 2021-03-24T08:51:40Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, but where in /proc/? 2021-03-24T08:52:02Z epony: \o/ no idea 2021-03-24T08:52:26Z no-defun-allowed: Apparently /proc/self/stat has something, but I don't know the format. 2021-03-24T08:52:32Z OlCe joined #lisp 2021-03-24T08:53:01Z sabasedigh: so what about file manipulation? reading/writing to a file? 2021-03-24T08:53:15Z sabasedigh: oh forget about secure connection to database. 2021-03-24T08:53:34Z no-defun-allowed: https://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man5/procfs.5.html C-f /proc/[pid]/stat 2021-03-24T08:53:38Z sabasedigh: something like ORM? 2021-03-24T08:55:28Z no-defun-allowed: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/c_stream.htm is a list of functions and macros which relate to files (and more generally any streams). 2021-03-24T08:56:43Z no-defun-allowed: There's at least Postmodern for ORM on Postgres, and CLSQL for most SQL databases you've heard of. 2021-03-24T08:56:52Z Odin-: ORMs are eil. 2021-03-24T08:56:55Z Odin-: evil. 2021-03-24T08:57:32Z no-defun-allowed: I'm not making a statement on their moral standing, just that they exist. 2021-03-24T08:59:41Z oxum_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T08:59:42Z no-defun-allowed: But I'd say databases are evil :) 2021-03-24T08:59:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: Postmodern isn't just an ORM 2021-03-24T09:00:06Z oxum joined #lisp 2021-03-24T09:00:19Z Odin-: Postmodern seems a lot more focused on the 'speak to Postgres' aspect than any other aspect. 2021-03-24T09:00:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: it includes an ORM-like functionality, but it's also just an pure-Lisp implementation of the Postgres wire protocol 2021-03-24T09:00:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: And, databases are great :) 2021-03-24T09:01:50Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-03-24T09:02:33Z no-defun-allowed: "Computing history will consider the past 50 years as a kind of Dark Ages of commercial data processing in which the religious zealots of the Church of Relationalism managed to hold back progress until a Renaissance rediscovered the Greece and Rome of pointer-based databases. Database research has produced a number of good results, but the relational database is not one of them." 2021-03-24T09:02:47Z Odin-: no-defun-allowed: Well, if we get right down to it computers are evil. But I will note that I shared that view until I was forced to work with SQL directly. 2021-03-24T09:03:05Z beach: no-defun-allowed: Beautiful! Where is it from? 2021-03-24T09:03:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, SQL isn't a great language, but the data model of relational databases is beautiful 2021-03-24T09:03:26Z no-defun-allowed: beach: Baker's letter to the ACM on relational databases (give or take a year update): 2021-03-24T09:03:40Z beach: no-defun-allowed: Thanks! 2021-03-24T09:03:58Z no-defun-allowed: But wait, there's more! "Because "algebraic relation theory" was much more respectible than "data processing", database theoreticians could now get tenure at respectible schools whose names did not sound like the "Control Data Institute"." 2021-03-24T09:04:13Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T09:04:34Z beach: Yes, the data model is "beautiful", but that doesn't make it practically useful. 2021-03-24T09:04:37Z Shinmera: Sounds like he's bitter more than he has a good point there. 2021-03-24T09:04:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: beach: I strongly disagree 2021-03-24T09:06:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: And, in general, I've found that projects at the companies I've worked for that picked non-relational databases get bogged down solving problems relational databases have solved for 30 years 2021-03-24T09:06:39Z beach: I see. 2021-03-24T09:06:43Z OlCe quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-24T09:06:52Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2021-03-24T09:06:52Z vaporatorius quit (Changing host) 2021-03-24T09:06:52Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2021-03-24T09:07:46Z Odin-: "we lowly Cobol programmers" <-- Projection much? 2021-03-24T09:08:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: I won't say they're the best model: I really prefer datalog-style queries, but they're the best model that a working programmer can actually pick up for general-purpose data processing 2021-03-24T09:09:25Z oxum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T09:10:18Z oxum joined #lisp 2021-03-24T09:12:21Z igemnace joined #lisp 2021-03-24T09:12:24Z epony: excel for the masses 2021-03-24T09:12:57Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-24T09:13:59Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-24T09:21:03Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-03-24T09:23:27Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-24T09:26:12Z johnjay joined #lisp 2021-03-24T09:29:45Z varjag: let's say i have a partial pathname from root up to a directory… how do i append the remaining subdirectory/file bit to it? 2021-03-24T09:30:11Z varjag: i have that last bit as a string 2021-03-24T09:30:29Z Shinmera: merge-pathnames 2021-03-24T09:32:05Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-03-24T09:33:09Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T09:34:32Z bugrum quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-24T09:36:08Z varjag: right that's what i tried first and it didn't work… but apparently i had the args in the opposite order, d'oh 2021-03-24T09:36:11Z varjag: thanks 2021-03-24T09:36:42Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-24T09:36:48Z GZJ0X__ joined #lisp 2021-03-24T09:39:30Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-24T09:39:47Z GZJ0X_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T09:41:23Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T09:41:24Z prxq_ quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-03-24T09:41:37Z prxq joined #lisp 2021-03-24T09:41:43Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-24T09:43:09Z aartaka_d quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-24T09:43:15Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-24T09:44:39Z Oddity joined #lisp 2021-03-24T09:45:47Z dddddd_ joined #lisp 2021-03-24T09:46:43Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-24T09:47:26Z Oddity- quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-24T09:59:05Z phantomics quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-24T10:00:06Z vegansbane6963 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-03-24T10:06:06Z no-defun-allowed: Odin-: Every time someone complains, I build another computer. 2021-03-24T10:07:05Z phantomics joined #lisp 2021-03-24T10:07:35Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-24T10:13:21Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-24T10:17:53Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-24T10:21:31Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-24T10:27:27Z johnjay joined #lisp 2021-03-24T10:32:53Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-03-24T10:33:03Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-24T10:37:49Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2021-03-24T10:39:35Z ljavorsk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T10:40:52Z HiRE quit (Quit: Later) 2021-03-24T10:41:16Z HiRE joined #lisp 2021-03-24T10:42:09Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-03-24T10:43:07Z GZJ0X__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T10:43:29Z GZJ0X__ joined #lisp 2021-03-24T10:44:07Z GZJ0X__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T10:44:28Z GZJ0X__ joined #lisp 2021-03-24T10:45:01Z tiwEllien joined #lisp 2021-03-24T10:47:58Z sabasedigh quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-24T10:50:13Z retropikzel quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-24T10:50:39Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-24T10:53:55Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-24T10:56:18Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-24T10:58:58Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-24T11:02:27Z dddddd_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-24T11:05:41Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-24T11:09:54Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-24T11:13:23Z jello_pudding joined #lisp 2021-03-24T11:16:42Z tmf_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-24T11:16:54Z contrapunctus: no-defun-allowed: re: databases, I'm a novice programmer; the one "serious" application I've written so far stores s-expressions into a file, reads them all (thousands of them at the moment, and growing) into memory, and reads the file again (partially or wholly) if it is changed (usually by the program itself). My only concern at the moment is to prevent the waste of RAM caused this way and to read th 2021-03-24T11:16:54Z contrapunctus: e data required in a finer-grained manner. What do you suggest I use for future projects? 🤔 2021-03-24T11:17:43Z no-defun-allowed: How large is each "entry" that you are reading? 2021-03-24T11:17:58Z cosimone quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-24T11:18:29Z unimog joined #lisp 2021-03-24T11:20:12Z frost-lab48 quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2021-03-24T11:21:03Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-24T11:21:07Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-03-24T11:22:27Z no-defun-allowed: Ideally you should be able to perform an update without re-reading the file, but keeping everything in memory may be acceptable for your scale. 2021-03-24T11:23:43Z ArtOfWar joined #lisp 2021-03-24T11:24:08Z no-defun-allowed: When I was writing an accounting program, I did an estimate that looks like this: Suppose we had a company with a hundred accountants, each of which exceptional typists who could write 200 WPM, and somehow kept it up for 10 hours a day entering in transactions. They then work 350 days a year. How many transactions could they (absolutely unrealistically) enter in a year, and how much memory would that occupy? 2021-03-24T11:25:05Z no-defun-allowed: They would "only" write 10 gigabytes or so a year, so I decided an in-memory database would be fine. 2021-03-24T11:27:30Z tmf joined #lisp 2021-03-24T11:28:00Z sabasedigh joined #lisp 2021-03-24T11:29:19Z contrapunctus: no-defun-allowed: Each expression is ~200 characters. It was terrible UX to re-read the file whenever something changed, but the work involved in optimizing it to support "partial reading" made me wonder if I'd have been better off with SQLite. 2021-03-24T11:30:38Z no-defun-allowed: I don't immediately see why you couldn't make the change in memory, then write out a change (or a totally new state, if incremental changes aren't worth the hassle) to disk. 2021-03-24T11:30:46Z Xach: contrapunctus: a log of updates is one handy way to avoid modifying and re-reading the file. 2021-03-24T11:31:18Z louis771_ joined #lisp 2021-03-24T11:31:19Z Xach: but a "real" database is probably a better bet for many uses 2021-03-24T11:31:19Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, a log would be a good idea, but re-reading just shouldn't be necessary at all if you have a copy in memory. 2021-03-24T11:31:37Z ArtOfWar left #lisp 2021-03-24T11:32:38Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2021-03-24T11:32:55Z louis771 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-24T11:32:57Z dvdmuckle quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-24T11:33:23Z contrapunctus: no-defun-allowed: it does some expensive operations on the expressions which were read. It's possible the schema didn't help in that matter - e.g. using ISO-8601 timestamps rather than UNIX timestamps - but that was a deliberate design decision from the start. 🤔 2021-03-24T11:34:30Z MrtnDk[m] < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/mnSJXwppgBPRzrNZQZfLsCws/message.txt > 2021-03-24T11:34:35Z no-defun-allowed: Reminds me that I am pondering how to know when to compress some logs I write to disk - now that the Netfarm semantics include "decrement a counter" as a side effect (as well as incrementing), there are now changes I can cancel out if disk space is an issue. 2021-03-24T11:35:05Z contrapunctus: MrtnDk[m]: many. Climacs, Second Climacs, Hemlock...? 2021-03-24T11:35:30Z no-defun-allowed: Mrtn Dk: You might want to avoid writing multi-line messages on IRC bridged channels, because the room sees that you mentioned a link to the content, and it won't ping beach. 2021-03-24T11:35:56Z no-defun-allowed: But beach was indeed involved in both Climacsen, and there are also Hemlock and its Portable variant. 2021-03-24T11:36:09Z MrtnDk[m]: contrapunctus: Cool! 2021-03-24T11:36:36Z MrtnDk[m]: beach Thank you for the answer. 2021-03-24T11:36:41Z contrapunctus: no-defun-allowed: oh, on the subject of Netfarm - I wonder if y'all would find this useful. Someone shared it, with the caveat that they have a lot of polishing to do before it can be used - https://github.com/danielcliffordmiller/cl-stun 2021-03-24T11:37:07Z no-defun-allowed: This STUN protocol? 2021-03-24T11:37:58Z Odin- notes that there's an interesting tendency to programming language monocultures. 2021-03-24T11:38:14Z MrtnDk[m]: *no-defun-allowed* How are the status of those? I think there was an effort to make a scheme variant of Emacs, but I think it wasn't very successful for some reason. 2021-03-24T11:38:54Z no-defun-allowed: Odin-: On the contrary to the implications of "monoculture", a programming experience with multiple languages is often the worst of all worlds involved. 2021-03-24T11:39:46Z Odin-: no-defun-allowed: Yes, but that's in no small part due to the fact that many (most?) programming languages make absolutely _no_ concession to the idea that other programming languages might exist. 2021-03-24T11:39:55Z MrtnDk[m]: Odin- Are you Odin-lap? I think you implied that you were, but I'll ask to be sure. 2021-03-24T11:40:18Z Odin-: MrtnDk[m]: I have used that nickname, yes. 2021-03-24T11:41:01Z MrtnDk[m]: Odin- I think I might have seen you on IRC in channel Emacs. 2021-03-24T11:41:04Z no-defun-allowed: How would an early bound language cooperate with a late bound, or anything like that, without making a system that is early bound somewhere you really don't want it to be? 2021-03-24T11:41:36Z no-defun-allowed: If that was taken into consideration, you might end up with a scenario where "all languages (actually) converge to Lisp" or whatever that was. 2021-03-24T11:42:25Z MrtnDk[m]: Odin- Are you Icelandic or, suomalainen by any chance? 2021-03-24T11:43:20Z no-defun-allowed: And a standard would likely have to cross-reference the other languages' standards. 2021-03-24T11:44:19Z Odin-: no-defun-allowed: I am not suggesting that we should be aiming for some "everything just works together" scenario. More that it doesn't seem absolutely _vital_ for every tool to be implemented in every language. 2021-03-24T11:45:41Z no-defun-allowed: Every tool should be implemented in Common Lisp (or something better) still :) 2021-03-24T11:46:25Z Odin-: MrtnDk[m]: Well, right now the government-run TV service where I am has a live feed of a volcano when they don't have scheduled broadcasts. 2021-03-24T11:46:44Z louis771_ quit (Quit: My M1 has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-24T11:47:01Z MrtnDk[m]: Odin- You mean kinda like you can use the libc API from scheme quite effortlessly? 2021-03-24T11:47:39Z Odin-: no-defun-allowed: Ideally, sure. But that's not realistically going to happen. :p 2021-03-24T11:48:08Z MrtnDk[m]: Odin- I think you're the Odin-I was thinking of then. 2021-03-24T11:48:24Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2021-03-24T11:48:31Z Gnuxie[m]: Won't use the tool then 2021-03-24T11:48:44Z Odin-: MrtnDk[m]: Well, for largely historical reasons _everything_ needs to be able to deal with C. 2021-03-24T11:49:08Z Odin-: MrtnDk[m]: The problem is that that fact tends to support a C monoculture. :D 2021-03-24T11:50:22Z sabasedigh quit (Changing host) 2021-03-24T11:50:22Z sabasedigh joined #lisp 2021-03-24T11:50:38Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2021-03-24T11:51:48Z MrtnDk[m]: I don't think Linux is likely to be rewritten in Common Lisp anytime soon ... 2021-03-24T11:52:25Z Odin-: ... mind you, I'm currently trying to learn more about Lisp by turning an interpreter written in C to a much more biased "Lisp first" way of working, so I can't claim the higher ground _that_ easily. 2021-03-24T11:52:49Z Odin-: (Not Common Lisp. I'm pretty sure a proper CL wouldn't fit on _any_ AVR chip.) 2021-03-24T11:53:25Z Gnuxie[m]: 'Re-written' like re writing would be an improvement js the biggest scam, like remacs, completly brain dead idea 2021-03-24T11:53:35Z no-defun-allowed: Odin-: If we don't do the impossible, we will be faced with the unthinkable. 2021-03-24T11:54:06Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T11:54:30Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-24T11:54:39Z Odin-: MrtnDk[m]: Linux, no. But there have been attempts at bare-x86 implementations. 2021-03-24T11:54:57Z sabasedigh quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-24T11:55:22Z Odin-: Gnuxie[m]: Well, it's worth remembering that GNU Emacs is itself fundamentally a rewrite. 2021-03-24T11:55:58Z sabasedigh joined #lisp 2021-03-24T11:56:02Z Odin-: Initially by the original author, and at a point where there wasn't an enormous existing codebase to contend with, but still... 2021-03-24T11:56:25Z Odin-: no-defun-allowed: What's with the 'will be'? :) 2021-03-24T11:56:48Z no-defun-allowed: Did I forget the quote? 2021-03-24T11:57:08Z Odin-: Nah, I'm just trying to imply we're already facing the unthinkable. 2021-03-24T11:57:24Z Odin-: In any case. 2021-03-24T11:57:29Z no-defun-allowed: Ah, "shall be faced with". /me had one job. 2021-03-24T11:57:41Z Odin-: Huh. I didn't even know that. 2021-03-24T11:57:53Z Spawns_Carpeting quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-24T11:58:28Z Odin-: no-defun-allowed: The thing I'm kinda complaining about is actually somewhat visible in what distinguishes Common Lisp implementations. 2021-03-24T11:58:51Z no-defun-allowed: Odin-: Sadly I can think of worse, but I suppose a lot of computing screw ups are hidden well away from mortals such as ourselves, so those are unthinkable. 2021-03-24T11:58:56Z MrtnDk[m]: Gnuxie 💜🐝 What do you mean by "remacs" and "js"? 2021-03-24T11:59:37Z Odin-: If you need two-way interoperation with C, ECL is your best bet. ABCL if you have to touch Java. And Clasp is seeking to make it possible to talk to C 2021-03-24T11:59:43Z Odin-: ++ without a translator. 2021-03-24T11:59:51Z Odin-: ... bumped the enter key by accident. 2021-03-24T12:00:39Z Spawns_Carpeting joined #lisp 2021-03-24T12:00:51Z no-defun-allowed: Mrtn Dk: I think Gnuxie is saying that a rewrite in itself is not interesting. The main gains are had by writing more idiomatic code, because one can write C in any language. 2021-03-24T12:01:51Z splittist: This reminds me: anyone know of a printf CL implementation? 2021-03-24T12:01:55Z MrtnDk[m]: Oh, I thought that went without saying, but I'm guessing there is another term for that, rather than "rewrite"? 2021-03-24T12:02:18Z no-defun-allowed: ...which is why the reference to remacs, which rewrites the C core of GNU Emacs, but leaves it still inflexible and early bound, which is of no real benefit to the user. 2021-03-24T12:02:27Z MrtnDk[m]: splittist What's wrong with format? 2021-03-24T12:03:10Z MrtnDk[m]: *no-defun-allowed* Ah ok, never heard of remacs before. 2021-03-24T12:03:23Z no-defun-allowed: An expression-for-expression clone could be a transliteration. 2021-03-24T12:03:48Z Odin-: splittist: Surely Zeta-C has one? 2021-03-24T12:04:04Z no-defun-allowed: Mrtn Dk: It is totally insignificant, other than it came up in an argument us two were in. 2021-03-24T12:05:39Z Odin-: no-defun-allowed: Considering that the authors of that consider Rust to be a worthwhile improvement on C, they evidently don't have a problem with those aspects of C. :p 2021-03-24T12:06:19Z MrtnDk[m]: I can see there benefit of writing an Emacs-clone in Common Lisp though. You would be able to use threads, and that would make it run faster on raspberry pi and other multi core platforms. 2021-03-24T12:06:25Z no-defun-allowed: Yet the README says the opposite story: "Emacs is a live system, you can inspect it and update without restarting, blah blah." 2021-03-24T12:06:49Z no-defun-allowed: If they actually believed those things, they would use an interactive language. 2021-03-24T12:07:03Z Nilby thinks Emacs is a comfortable evolutionary puddle on that we should crawl out of. 2021-03-24T12:07:42Z MrtnDk[m]: Nilby Are you a vi user? 2021-03-24T12:07:59Z Odin-: Nilby: What _isn't_? 2021-03-24T12:08:24Z Nilby: No. I've use emacs since it was written. It used hack Emacs professionally. 2021-03-24T12:08:44Z no-defun-allowed: C and Rust are not introspectable (as in procedural reflection), not incremental, not particuarly mutable, and do not offer ways of writing entry points that aren't "programs". 2021-03-24T12:08:57Z MrtnDk[m]: It used hack? 2021-03-24T12:09:25Z Odin-: We're still using what is basically an updated telegraph code as the main representation of text. 2021-03-24T12:10:13Z Nilby: Odin-: Yes. You get it. 2021-03-24T12:10:23Z MrtnDk[m]: *no-defun-allowed* I don't think rust has anything to bring to the table, from what I hear. 2021-03-24T12:10:37Z Odin-: That's leaving aside the fact that command line interfaces are still based fundamentally around the capacities of actual, _literal_ telegraph machines. 2021-03-24T12:10:59Z no-defun-allowed: Mrtn Dk: That's what Gnuxie was getting at. 2021-03-24T12:11:19Z MrtnDk[m]: Nilby What do you mean by "It used hack Emacs ..." ? 2021-03-24T12:11:49Z Nilby: It is I. 2021-03-24T12:12:02Z no-defun-allowed: You could gain some of those things from a CL port, but then you also want to reconsider any weird decisions brought on by using C. 2021-03-24T12:12:42Z Odin-: MrtnDk[m]: As an implementation language for Emacs, it doesn't. My way of looking at it ... it's a good alternative choice to C++. 2021-03-24T12:13:01Z MrtnDk[m]: oh ok, that makes more sense, Nilby. You used to hack Emacs professionally. I guess you got to see some of the ugly parts of the code then? 2021-03-24T12:13:39Z splittist: Odin-: good point. I'll have a look at Vacietis. 2021-03-24T12:14:21Z Nilby: Yes. The very very ugly parts. Some of them are gone now. But the architectural problems annoy me more every day. 2021-03-24T12:15:03Z MrtnDk[m]: architectural? 2021-03-24T12:15:28Z MrtnDk[m]: Like the core design? 2021-03-24T12:16:08Z Nilby: MrtnDk[m]: Yes. 2021-03-24T12:16:29Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-24T12:17:07Z MrtnDk[m]: I guess those problems have been solved in climacs and/or the other common Lisp versions? 2021-03-24T12:18:39Z Nilby: For example: the input loop is a single thread, so you can't switch between searching different things in different windows without trouble. 2021-03-24T12:19:12Z Odin-: MrtnDk[m]: I wouldn't count on it. 2021-03-24T12:19:38Z Nilby: But like Odin mentioned, I don't think a buffer should only represented as text. 2021-03-24T12:19:53Z Odin-: For instance, CL doesn't have threads. 2021-03-24T12:20:06Z Odin-: The implementations do, sure. But CL doesn't. 2021-03-24T12:20:40Z MrtnDk[m]: You mean the standard, common ANSI-Lisp? 2021-03-24T12:21:04Z gareppa joined #lisp 2021-03-24T12:21:26Z MrtnDk[m]: odin- 2021-03-24T12:21:37Z gareppa quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-24T12:22:09Z Odin-: Yes. 2021-03-24T12:23:00Z Nilby: I think every CL in actual use is significant superset of CL, such that there's nearly a new defacto standard. 2021-03-24T12:23:35Z Odin-: And that means older CL emacsen are likely to have the same problem, for the same reason as GNU Emacs. 2021-03-24T12:24:18Z Nilby: Indeed. The older versions of hemlock show it's age like that. 2021-03-24T12:26:52Z igemnace quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T12:27:32Z Odin-: Nilby: All I'm saying is that architectural limitations like that don't _definitely_ go away by being written in CL, because the same historical constraints that caused the problem in GNU Emacs also applied to CL - though CL has definitely been quicker to get rid of them than Emacs has. 2021-03-24T12:30:45Z White_Flame: Nilby: alexandria and the trivial-* libraries are a certain solidification of that defacto superset 2021-03-24T12:30:47Z Nilby: I agreee. In fact it seems most Emacen in CL retain most of the architectural problems. Perhaps they mostly solve that you can redefine and extend the core more easily. 2021-03-24T12:31:00Z White_Flame: well, not even alexandria, that's just plain lisp 2021-03-24T12:31:26Z Nilby: White_Flame: Yes. And things like sockets, FFI, etc. 2021-03-24T12:31:32Z White_Flame: certainly there's a new "common" baseline of common lisp implementations to standardize 2021-03-24T12:32:11Z White_Flame: and this time they're generally much more cross-compatible 2021-03-24T12:32:21Z tinhatcat joined #lisp 2021-03-24T12:32:36Z Odin-: Well, this time they have a much larger common base. 2021-03-24T12:34:43Z Nilby: It's almost like something like http://portability.cl/ is the new base. 2021-03-24T12:41:53Z tinhatcat quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-24T12:46:41Z long4mud quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-24T12:46:54Z OlCe joined #lisp 2021-03-24T12:48:36Z warweasle joined #lisp 2021-03-24T12:51:02Z OlCe quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T12:52:20Z OlCe joined #lisp 2021-03-24T12:52:20Z cosimone quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-24T12:53:22Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-03-24T13:05:06Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-03-24T13:07:11Z GZJ0X__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T13:07:34Z GZJ0X__ joined #lisp 2021-03-24T13:08:56Z louis771 quit (Quit: My M1 has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-24T13:09:28Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-03-24T13:11:11Z GZJ0X__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T13:11:32Z GZJ0X__ joined #lisp 2021-03-24T13:12:12Z GZJ0X__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T13:12:32Z GZJ0X__ joined #lisp 2021-03-24T13:13:09Z GZJ0X__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-24T13:13:30Z GZJ0X__ joined #lisp 2021-03-24T13:14:13Z Gnuxie[m]: Mrtn Dk: js is me fat thumbjng 'i' for is 2021-03-24T13:14:14Z louis771 quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-24T13:14:54Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-03-24T13:15:12Z GZJ0X__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T13:15:20Z MrtnDk[m]: Gnuxie 💜🐝 I was wondering if it was JavaScript. 😂 2021-03-24T13:15:35Z GZJ0X__ joined #lisp 2021-03-24T13:17:11Z GZJ0X__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T13:17:35Z GZJ0X__ joined #lisp 2021-03-24T13:18:27Z Gnuxie[m]: Lol 2021-03-24T13:19:14Z GZJ0X__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T13:19:41Z OlCe quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-24T13:19:48Z dvdmuckle joined #lisp 2021-03-24T13:20:56Z Ioanai7 joined #lisp 2021-03-24T13:21:01Z Ioanai7: Best Browser Ever! Mine Your Own BitCoin While You Surffing The Web! https://cryptotabbrowser.com/16879401 2021-03-24T13:22:18Z villanella quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T13:22:26Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-03-24T13:27:03Z sabasedigh quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-24T13:32:30Z OlCe joined #lisp 2021-03-24T13:33:57Z stalwart joined #lisp 2021-03-24T13:34:05Z sabasedigh joined #lisp 2021-03-24T13:35:57Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-24T13:37:10Z Major_Biscuit joined #lisp 2021-03-24T13:37:41Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-24T13:38:27Z ChanServ has set mode +o phoe 2021-03-24T13:38:30Z phoe has set mode +b *!*ioana@*.154.216.137.dyn.user.ono.com 2021-03-24T13:38:30Z Ioanai7 [~phoe@2001:19f0:5:689f:5400:2ff:fe77:b1de] has been kicked from #lisp by phoe (Ioanai7) 2021-03-24T13:38:32Z ChanServ has set mode -o phoe 2021-03-24T13:38:50Z phoe: so how is everyone's lisp today 2021-03-24T13:39:10Z flip214: phoe: {curly} 2021-03-24T13:51:23Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-24T13:51:47Z contrapunctus: I'm struggling to get through the McCLIM tutorial, for some reason. Don't know why I'm having so much difficulty getting myself to focus on it. 2021-03-24T13:54:07Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-24T13:54:35Z Nilby: McCLIM code has a weird soporific effect on me too. 2021-03-24T13:55:15Z jackdaniel: wait until stockholm syndrome kicks in ,-) 2021-03-24T13:55:18Z contrapunctus: But I absolutely love the presentation types idea and I have a ton of things I want to write with it :\ 2021-03-24T13:56:01Z Shinmera: phoe: I'm in a flux of considering to work on a project and then deciding against it. 2021-03-24T13:56:10Z jackdaniel: contrapunctus: first define presentation types, then define command tables and at the very last define a frame and a display function 2021-03-24T13:56:43Z jackdaniel: that's (imo) the most reusable order for writing clim applications 2021-03-24T13:57:42Z contrapunctus: jackdaniel: hey ^^ thanks, I'll keep it in mind. Also, another tutorial-tweaking PR coming in soonish 🙂 (Texinfo, this time) 2021-03-24T13:59:46Z jackdaniel: great, thanks! 2021-03-24T14:02:57Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-24T14:10:08Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-24T14:11:55Z tiwEllien quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-24T14:13:16Z tiwEllien joined #lisp 2021-03-24T14:13:19Z sabasedigh quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-24T14:21:11Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-24T14:21:30Z sjl joined #lisp 2021-03-24T14:23:43Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-24T14:28:13Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2021-03-24T14:29:26Z Major_Biscuit joined #lisp 2021-03-24T14:30:59Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-24T14:32:49Z DateMasamune2000 joined #lisp 2021-03-24T14:36:26Z admich joined #lisp 2021-03-24T14:41:37Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-24T14:42:48Z sabasedigh joined #lisp 2021-03-24T14:43:43Z tiwEllien quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-24T14:44:35Z tiwEllien joined #lisp 2021-03-24T14:44:54Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-03-24T14:51:04Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2021-03-24T14:51:09Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-24T14:51:38Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-24T14:52:02Z sabasedigh quit (Changing host) 2021-03-24T14:52:02Z sabasedigh joined #lisp 2021-03-24T14:52:10Z Josh_2: Ello ello fello lispers :P 2021-03-24T14:54:14Z sabasedigh quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.93.2017081717 [Basilisk 52.9.2021.03.17/20210317091816]) 2021-03-24T14:56:57Z flazh quit (Quit: flazh) 2021-03-24T15:06:44Z waleee-cl joined #lisp 2021-03-24T15:07:22Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-03-24T15:08:03Z frgo: Hi all. I am working for the first time with CFFI's groveler. I am trying to get the package config cflags as flags set-up for the groveler. I found the groveler "syntax" pkg-config-cflags but, in contrast to e.g. "include" or "flag", CFFI's groveler doesn't seem to understand this: (pkg-config-cflags "rabbit-c" :optional t) 2021-03-24T15:08:48Z frgo: Hope one of you guys can help me out here. Any hints? Thx!!! 2021-03-24T15:10:31Z sabasedigh joined #lisp 2021-03-24T15:11:04Z varjagg joined #lisp 2021-03-24T15:15:18Z warweasle is now known as warweasle_afk 2021-03-24T15:15:32Z shka_: (ql:quickload :osicat) gives me error regarding fare-quasiquote 2021-03-24T15:15:37Z sabasedigh quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-24T15:15:45Z shka_: can someone verify if this happens for them as well 2021-03-24T15:15:50Z shka_: ? 2021-03-24T15:16:18Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-24T15:16:25Z Josh_2: Works for me 2021-03-24T15:16:54Z frgo: @shka_ Works for me (SBCL 2.1.2 on macOS M1, CFFI 0.23.0) 2021-03-24T15:17:20Z shka_: ok, thanks 2021-03-24T15:18:54Z sabasedigh joined #lisp 2021-03-24T15:19:52Z beach: MrtnDk[m]: Sorry, I was away. We made a certain number of mistakes in the architecture of (first) Climacs, so we are not working on it anymore. Instead we are planning Second Climacs to be a much better editor, at least for Common Lisp code. But it is going to take a while because I am busy with SICL. 2021-03-24T15:21:54Z MrtnDk[m]: SICL? 2021-03-24T15:22:06Z beach: MrtnDk[m]: Also, I think people forgot to point out to you that Unix is a disaster that was already worse then its predecessors at the time, so there would be no point in rewriting it in Common Lisp. Instead, we have a design for a pure Lisp operating system called CLOSOS: http://metamodular.com/closos.pdf 2021-03-24T15:22:17Z beach: minion: Please tell MrtnDk[m] about SICL. 2021-03-24T15:22:17Z minion: MrtnDk[m]: SICL: SICL is a (perhaps futile) attempt to re-implement Common Lisp from scratch, hopefully using improved programming and bootstrapping techniques. See https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL 2021-03-24T15:23:23Z Major_Biscuit joined #lisp 2021-03-24T15:25:32Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-24T15:26:52Z MrtnDk[m]: beach Interesting. I don't know any alternative to UNIX / GNU+Linux, but I'm aware that there might be some short comings. Regarding Climacs2, I'm guessing you have to ditch Emacs Lisp to some extent. 2021-03-24T15:27:15Z beach: Er, yes, I am not planning to use Emacs Lisp. 2021-03-24T15:28:11Z gabc: What's the status of SICL? (it's not obvious from the github repo) 2021-03-24T15:28:14Z louis771 quit (Quit: My M1 has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-24T15:28:24Z beach: gabc: Still not working. 2021-03-24T15:28:33Z shka_: i think that CL is strictly superior to Elisp anyway 2021-03-24T15:28:39Z beach: gabc: I am working on register allocation at the moment. 2021-03-24T15:28:55Z shka_: osicat loads fine after nuking away the .cache/common-lisp 2021-03-24T15:29:06Z beach: gabc: Most of the code has been executed and tested, though, thanks to the unique bootstrapping technique. 2021-03-24T15:29:58Z gabc: alright cool thanks! :) 2021-03-24T15:30:02Z beach: gabc: So the register allocator, the code generator, and the garbage collector are the modules that have not been tested, and won't be until we have an executable. 2021-03-24T15:30:55Z gabc: They can be tested in isolation I assume? 2021-03-24T15:31:21Z beach: I don't know. I haven't thought much about it. 2021-03-24T15:31:29Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-03-24T15:32:28Z beach: MrtnDk[m]: I strongly recommend "The Unix Haters Handbook". I put off reading it for the longest time, thinking it was written by ignorant people, but in fact it was written by very smart and very knowledgeable people who knew better alternatives that preceded. 2021-03-24T15:32:47Z warweasle_afk is now known as warweasle 2021-03-24T15:32:51Z gabc: Okok I haven't look too much into SICL, I looked at some of his paper but nothing more 2021-03-24T15:33:01Z beach: "his"? 2021-03-24T15:33:11Z gabc: oh sorry, Robert Strandh 2021-03-24T15:33:22Z shka_: beach is Robert 2021-03-24T15:33:26Z beach: Er, "beach" is a literal translation of "strand" 2021-03-24T15:33:26Z gabc: ahahah 2021-03-24T15:33:31Z gabc: Well 2021-03-24T15:33:35Z gabc: "yours" then :P 2021-03-24T15:33:36Z shka_: he is the man himself 2021-03-24T15:33:39Z gabc: Oh damn 2021-03-24T15:33:44Z gabc: Well that's awkward 2021-03-24T15:33:47Z MrtnDk[m]: Strand is another word for beach. 😁 2021-03-24T15:33:54Z beach: gabc: Don't worry about it. 2021-03-24T15:34:07Z gabc: Aah a german word 2021-03-24T15:34:17Z beach: In this case, Swedish, but yeah. 2021-03-24T15:34:33Z remby joined #lisp 2021-03-24T15:34:44Z Nilby: I've been slowly addressing every issue in "The Unix Haters Handbook". 2021-03-24T15:35:11Z MrtnDk[m]: Are you a Swede? 2021-03-24T15:36:45Z jbgg left #lisp 2021-03-24T15:37:03Z beach: MrtnDk[m]: I am a citizen of the European Union. My passport says my nationality is Swedish, but that's just a technical thing. I am French for all practical purposes, and my current best language is English. 2021-03-24T15:37:20Z beach: MrtnDk[m]: I have lived in 5 countries on 4 continents. 2021-03-24T15:38:20Z MrtnDk[m]: beach Which operating system are you using (since CLOSOS probably isn't ready for main stream yet). 2021-03-24T15:38:45Z beach: I am currently using Ubuntu GNU/Linux, and I am upset with it on a daily basis. 2021-03-24T15:39:26Z Nilby: beach: Me too. 2021-03-24T15:39:54Z shka_: somehow i had less problems with arch linux even then the ubuntu 2021-03-24T15:40:33Z shka_: don't know what is wrong with it 2021-03-24T15:40:39Z Nilby: After trying fixing the same problems for years one's annoyance tends to snowball. 2021-03-24T15:40:46Z beach: shka_: I can imagine that. What I need is a system administrator who will give me the environment I would like to see, among the available choices. 2021-03-24T15:41:06Z MrtnDk[m]: Which problems are you having? 2021-03-24T15:41:13Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3)) 2021-03-24T15:42:33Z beach: MrtnDk[m]: That I have to restart Firefox when the code is updated. That I have to restart the operating system AND all my applications when the kernel is updated. That everything is written in silly static languages that are hard to deal with. That everything runs in a separate process so that communication is hard. 2021-03-24T15:43:28Z beach: MrtnDk[m]: That they are making my life harder by introducing things like ASLR (and worse) to patch problems that should be fixed by a complete rethink of the computing model. 2021-03-24T15:43:41Z MrtnDk[m]: ASLR? 2021-03-24T15:43:46Z gabc: MrtnDk[m]: Address space layout randomization 2021-03-24T15:43:53Z beach: gabc: Thanks! 2021-03-24T15:44:03Z gabc: (I did google it just faster :P) 2021-03-24T15:44:24Z beach: MrtnDk[m]: Much of what I am saying here is more elaborate in the CLOSOS document. 2021-03-24T15:44:35Z MrtnDk[m]: Wow, you're fast gabc 2021-03-24T15:44:52Z gabc: MrtnDk[m]: I've been confused for a bot a few time in my life ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 2021-03-24T15:44:57Z sabasedigh quit (Changing host) 2021-03-24T15:44:57Z sabasedigh joined #lisp 2021-03-24T15:45:04Z beach: Heh. 2021-03-24T15:45:05Z jackdaniel: wait, aren't you a bot? 2021-03-24T15:45:50Z gabc: jackdaniel: You can prove either way, and I won't spoil 2021-03-24T15:46:25Z MrtnDk[m]: beach Sounds like an ambitious project. I am guessing SICL is a precursor for it. 2021-03-24T15:46:27Z Nilby: gabc is extraordinarily advanced for a bot 2021-03-24T15:46:35Z beach: MrtnDk[m]: Correct. 2021-03-24T15:46:59Z Josh_2: beach: perhaps you should try an LTS instead, no need to update 2021-03-24T15:47:03Z beach: MrtnDk[m]: In particular, first-class global environments are essential for it. 2021-03-24T15:47:28Z beach: Josh_2: That's basically my "solution" to the problem, yes. 2021-03-24T15:47:38Z Josh_2: I just switched to Devuan which is a fork of Debian because I don't like updating. Everything it uses is LTS 2021-03-24T15:48:38Z beach: Josh_2: But I am a researcher, and just knowing that they messed things up this bad makes me upset. 2021-03-24T15:48:50Z Josh_2: :P 2021-03-24T15:49:39Z Josh_2: I think I will checkout The Unix Haters Handbook 2021-03-24T15:50:49Z beach: The saddest part is that the vast majority of users think Unix is the best, not only the best there has every been, but the best there could be. So they live perfectly happily in this misery. 2021-03-24T15:50:50Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-03-24T15:51:29Z Josh_2: well right now there are only 3 real world choices, windows, mac and linux, so I think in those circumstances linux is the best 2021-03-24T15:51:40Z beach: That's true. 2021-03-24T15:51:49Z gabc: Heck Plan9 is a better Unix than Unix is 2021-03-24T15:52:10Z beach: But notice I didn't say "the best there is". I said "the best there has ever been". 2021-03-24T15:53:28Z admich: beach: there is some relation between Mezzano and your closos? Is Mezzano a unix-like OS written in CL or is it something near your idea? 2021-03-24T15:54:16Z beach: admich: They are unrelated. Mezzano is great, but does not have any of the explicit goals that I have for CLOSOS. 2021-03-24T15:54:43Z beach: admich: And, no Mezzano is not a Unix-like. 2021-03-24T15:55:50Z beach: I haven't actually used it, but I think it can be thought of as a Common Lisp system on bare metal. 2021-03-24T15:57:43Z flazh joined #lisp 2021-03-24T16:02:31Z aartaka_d quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-24T16:02:36Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-24T16:03:52Z beach: froggey: Is Mezzano crash proof? If so, what technique do you use? 2021-03-24T16:05:01Z remby quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T16:05:46Z remby joined #lisp 2021-03-24T16:09:02Z remexre: should http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_s.htm#single_escape read "In the standard readtable, backslash is the only single escape."? 2021-03-24T16:11:43Z beach: I think you are right. 2021-03-24T16:13:42Z semz: The Unix Hater's Handbook is strange. I read it twice; the first time I dismissed it, thinking "wtf are these people whining about". The second time I found myself agreeing with basically everything. But I have no idea how or when I went from 1 to 2. 2021-03-24T16:14:30Z beach: semz: That sounds very plausible to me. 2021-03-24T16:15:37Z gabc: The foreword of Dennis Ritchie is quite funny tho 2021-03-24T16:16:57Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-24T16:19:14Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-24T16:19:20Z Inline quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-24T16:20:21Z sabasedigh quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-24T16:20:25Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-03-24T16:21:18Z varjagg joined #lisp 2021-03-24T16:22:42Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-03-24T16:23:04Z sabasedigh joined #lisp 2021-03-24T16:23:24Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-03-24T16:24:24Z louis771 quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-24T16:27:18Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-03-24T16:32:21Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-24T16:36:53Z OlCe quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-24T16:36:58Z MrtnDk[m]: Is it true it comes with a barf bag? I seem to remember that ... 2021-03-24T16:38:10Z beach: I believe so. 2021-03-24T16:38:17Z beach: I read it online, so I didn't get it. 2021-03-24T16:39:17Z Xach: I own a copy and can confirm it comes with a barf bag. (Mine remains unused.) 2021-03-24T16:40:44Z sabasedigh quit (Changing host) 2021-03-24T16:40:44Z sabasedigh joined #lisp 2021-03-24T16:43:16Z OlCe joined #lisp 2021-03-24T16:43:55Z ck_: mine as well 2021-03-24T16:44:31Z ck_: if I feel sick, I just apply X Windows directly to the forehead 2021-03-24T16:46:45Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-24T16:48:21Z MrtnDk[m] quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-24T16:48:22Z louis771 quit (Quit: My M1 has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-24T16:48:58Z arcontethegreat[ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-24T16:53:27Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-24T16:54:04Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-24T16:55:22Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-24T16:58:48Z DateMasamune2000 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-24T17:06:25Z MrtnDk[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-24T17:07:51Z arcontethegreat[ joined #lisp 2021-03-24T17:08:45Z varjagg quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 28.0.50)) 2021-03-24T17:11:49Z raeda quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-24T17:13:07Z sabasedigh quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.93.2017081717 [Basilisk 52.9.2021.03.17/20210317091816]) 2021-03-24T17:15:38Z aartaka_d quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-24T17:15:44Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-24T17:16:45Z sabasedigh joined #lisp 2021-03-24T17:16:58Z sabasedigh quit (Changing host) 2021-03-24T17:16:58Z sabasedigh joined #lisp 2021-03-24T17:24:38Z admich quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-24T17:25:32Z amk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T17:25:41Z amk joined #lisp 2021-03-24T17:40:45Z rogersm_ joined #lisp 2021-03-24T17:41:38Z rogersm_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T17:56:56Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-24T17:57:25Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2021-03-24T18:00:08Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T18:00:22Z emacsomancer quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-24T18:00:28Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-24T18:01:26Z emacsomancer joined #lisp 2021-03-24T18:06:18Z Major_Biscuit quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-24T18:11:25Z Odin-: The Unix-Haters Handbook is an interesting artifact. Not least because the same sorts of (and, indeed, in some cases _actually_ the same) people that whined about it are now whining about things like systemd changing the systems they know. 2021-03-24T18:13:23Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-24T18:22:19Z metehan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T18:23:02Z MrtnDk[m]: Odin- I remember looking at UNIX haters handbook at one point, I guess to dismiss it. I don't remember what my reaction was, but I think I'd prefer a system like rc init (is that what it is called?) over systemd. Systemd seems like a big beast, that is hard to control. So from a KISS point of view, I'm not sure it's an improvement. I'm not really that invested, so someone might sway me. 2021-03-24T18:23:31Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-24T18:36:02Z tiwEllien quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-24T18:38:43Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-24T18:46:13Z Odin-: MrtnDk[m]: The point actually isn't about systemd as such; it's more that there's a certain irony in Unix people scoffing at the (real or imagined) inferiority of different systems, after having been so very adamant that everyone who used to do that in their direction was silly for doing so. 2021-03-24T18:47:52Z shka_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2021-03-24T18:54:42Z imuo joined #lisp 2021-03-24T18:54:55Z imuo: (waves 'me) 2021-03-24T18:55:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: \o/ 2021-03-24T18:55:36Z MrtnDk[m]: Odin- I get it now, I think. 2021-03-24T18:55:55Z imuo: i feel the calling to make a forum for an interest i have. i really enjoyed the phpBB forums of the past (as a user)... but as a programmer... i am curious.. is there a lispy version? 2021-03-24T18:56:13Z imuo: i am already familiar with the basics of hunchentoot (sp?) 2021-03-24T18:57:41Z MrtnDk[m]: I have a common question. A common Lisp question even. The question is, how do I do iterative Lisp, without getting the warning about redefining a nested defun? Is there a different way (a common way) to do this in common Lisp? 2021-03-24T18:58:53Z jasom: MrtnDk[m]: don't have nested defuns? 2021-03-24T18:59:00Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-03-24T18:59:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: MrtnDk[m]: "defun" is only a toplevel form, there's FLET and LABELS for locally-defined functions 2021-03-24T19:00:08Z jasom: MrtnDk[m]: what is it you think you need a nested defun for? 2021-03-24T19:00:37Z MrtnDk[m]: jasom That's what I figured. I was looking for an alternative. I guess fiddlerwoaroof just have me a couple .. 2021-03-24T19:00:43Z MrtnDk[m]: gave* 2021-03-24T19:01:12Z MrtnDk[m]: jasom: I come from Scheme. 2021-03-24T19:01:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: I always found SICP's use of nested defines weird 2021-03-24T19:02:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: There aren't any parens to tell you what the scope of the definition is 2021-03-24T19:03:16Z jasom: MrtnDk[m]: you can also use e.g. (defconstant +x+ 3) instead of (let ((x 3)) (defun FOO ...) (defun BAR ...)); this covers a different case than what fiddlerwoaroof suggested 2021-03-24T19:06:32Z OlCe quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-24T19:06:56Z jasom: is there already a portable wrapper around OS CSRNG (arc4random, getrandom, /dev/urandom, whatever windows uses)? 2021-03-24T19:07:07Z MrtnDk[m]: fiddlerwoaroof It seems like I have trouble with the syntax of label. SBCL complains about unbound variable .. 2021-03-24T19:07:58Z jasom: MrtnDk[m]: paste something? (https://plaster.tymoon.eu/edit for a pastebin) 2021-03-24T19:08:03Z MrtnDk[m]: jasom: That seems pretty useful. A way of getting around nested lets. 2021-03-24T19:08:14Z sabasedigh quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-24T19:08:33Z jasom: MrtnDk[m]: you need to be a bit more careful with naming things (but packages do help you out quite a bit here) 2021-03-24T19:10:17Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T19:10:17Z warweasle quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 26.1) 2021-03-24T19:10:29Z Alfr: jasom, maybe https://github.com/sharplispers/ironclad/blob/master/src/prng/os-prng.lisp ? 2021-03-24T19:10:44Z jasom: MrtnDk[m]: also be aware that PROGN doesn't count as nesting for the purposes of top-level forms, so you can e.g. have a macro that expands to (progn (defun ...) (defun ...)) 2021-03-24T19:11:15Z jasom: Alfr: I was hoping something that didn't involve pulling in all of ironclad; should have specified that 2021-03-24T19:14:09Z rpg joined #lisp 2021-03-24T19:20:50Z MrtnDk[m]: jasom: The pasting doesn't seem to work for me; but w3m complains about a cookie it had to reject ... 2021-03-24T19:22:06Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-24T19:23:25Z midre quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-24T19:23:34Z jasom: MrtnDk[m]: probably for anti-spam. Can use a different pastebin if you prefer 2021-03-24T19:27:06Z sauvin_ is now known as Sauvin 2021-03-24T19:27:41Z midre joined #lisp 2021-03-24T19:28:21Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-24T19:29:12Z imuo quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-24T19:35:40Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2021-03-24T19:35:51Z MrtnDk[m]: jasom I was trying to figure out how to allow a cookie 2021-03-24T19:36:12Z jasom doesn't use w3m 2021-03-24T19:38:16Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-24T19:38:39Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2021-03-24T19:42:50Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2021-03-24T19:43:31Z shinohai: MrtnDk[m]: Does yer w3m have some seekrit js support for it? 2021-03-24T19:47:19Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-24T19:48:19Z rpg joined #lisp 2021-03-24T19:48:51Z MrtnDk[m]: shinohai I dont think it supports JavaScript. 2021-03-24T19:49:49Z shinohai: I was just curious, as most paste sites I've tried work sporadically (or not at all) under w3m 2021-03-24T19:51:21Z Shinmera: plaster doesn't use any js spam prevention or mandate cookies, so dunno what's going wrong there. 2021-03-24T19:53:36Z Shinmera: There is a plaster.el package for emacs, though I don't know if it still works. Been a long time since I last tested it. 2021-03-24T19:55:11Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-03-24T20:05:39Z PuercoPop joined #lisp 2021-03-24T20:11:14Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-24T20:13:24Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-24T20:16:38Z kevingal quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-24T20:19:35Z MrtnDk[m]: Shinmera JSON readtable error: 60 2021-03-24T20:19:54Z Shinmera: I don't know what that means. 2021-03-24T20:21:28Z jmercouris: Come on, it’s obvious 2021-03-24T20:21:38Z jmercouris: /s 2021-03-24T20:21:55Z jmercouris: It’s JSON readable error: 60 2021-03-24T20:26:57Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-24T20:28:21Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-24T20:31:21Z srandon111 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T20:32:19Z srandon111 joined #lisp 2021-03-24T20:33:26Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-24T20:36:48Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-24T20:37:59Z kini quit (Quit: bye) 2021-03-24T20:39:51Z DHARMAKAYA joined #lisp 2021-03-24T20:42:33Z kini joined #lisp 2021-03-24T20:45:09Z DHARMAKAYA quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-24T20:46:04Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-03-24T20:47:31Z rpg: jmercouris: Now marked down to JSON readtable error: 59.95 2021-03-24T20:59:10Z gabc: To the moon! 2021-03-24T21:01:22Z raeda joined #lisp 2021-03-24T21:01:47Z MrtnDk[m]: Shinmera I am guessing it means that plaster.el is broken. 😁 2021-03-24T21:02:14Z Shinmera: possibly. 2021-03-24T21:02:58Z MrtnDk[m]: It was just updated in 2018 however, so I did have hope it would work. 2021-03-24T21:03:26Z Shinmera: A lot can happen in 3 years. 2021-03-24T21:05:05Z MrtnDk[m]: Aparently, yes. 2021-03-24T21:07:37Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-03-24T21:10:24Z OlCe joined #lisp 2021-03-24T21:10:53Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-24T21:12:25Z unimog quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T21:14:08Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-24T21:14:52Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T21:15:10Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-24T21:17:57Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-24T21:18:27Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-24T21:21:32Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-24T21:23:35Z Krystof joined #lisp 2021-03-24T21:24:09Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T21:26:21Z akoana joined #lisp 2021-03-24T21:27:48Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-03-24T21:28:30Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-03-24T21:30:15Z Xach: rpg: hello! what projects does shop3 need that are not in quicklisp? 2021-03-24T21:30:29Z Xach: rpg: it is not described in the readme as far as i can tell 2021-03-24T21:32:04Z metehan joined #lisp 2021-03-24T21:32:27Z metehan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T21:33:00Z metehan joined #lisp 2021-03-24T21:35:51Z rpg: Xach: You mean what dependencies does it have? I don't think it has any. 2021-03-24T21:36:28Z rpg: It has a bunch of externals for people who do not use it with QL, but as far as I know it works just fine when added to QL as a local project. 2021-03-24T21:38:01Z rpg: Xach: Worded more clearly, "as far as I know all of SHOP3's dependencies are available through Quicklisp" 2021-03-24T21:38:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: rpg: are you a maintainer of ASFD? 2021-03-24T21:38:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: ASDF? 2021-03-24T21:38:58Z rpg: fiddlerwoaroof: Yes (for my sins). 2021-03-24T21:39:26Z Xach: rpg: > You need to do this, at least for the moment, because some of the required libraries are not in Quicklisp. 2021-03-24T21:39:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: Cool, I've always wondered why the define-ops returned by ASDF:LOAD-ASD don't seem to have any information about the system that was defined 2021-03-24T21:39:34Z Xach: rpg: i didn't understand that bit in the readme 2021-03-24T21:39:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is it possible to use them to somehow retrieve that information? 2021-03-24T21:40:05Z rpg: Xach: Let me look again. That may be obsolete. 2021-03-24T21:40:24Z MrtnDk[m]: I wonder how I: 1. Install the slime extension for quicklisp. 2. How I access the documentation for quicklisp. 2021-03-24T21:42:09Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-03-24T21:44:22Z cosimone quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 28.0.50)) 2021-03-24T21:44:47Z rpg: Xach: OK, I see that. Yes, that is old. 2021-03-24T21:45:43Z OlCe quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-24T21:46:12Z rpg: Xach: The new state of affairs is that there is one library that is not in QL -- pddl-tools -- and that is only used in the tests. The rest of the dependencies are all in QL now. 2021-03-24T21:46:59Z rpg: s/pddl-tools/pddl-utils/ 2021-03-24T21:50:01Z rpg: I should make that one available, too; it's on GitHub (https://github.com/rpgoldman/pddl-tools) but there's one problem -- the repo contains four systems: pddl-utils, pddl, pddl-planners, and external-planners, and I don't know if that means I should re-package (decompose) it to be QL-friendly. 2021-03-24T21:51:14Z rpg: I suppose I should explain that recursing the submodules is *not* necessary when working with QL. 2021-03-24T21:53:07Z Xach: quicklisp recurses the submodules 2021-03-24T21:56:08Z akoana quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-24T21:56:23Z rpg: Xach: Ah. Hm. 2021-03-24T22:02:49Z rpg: Xach: I fixed the README, but am not entirely sure how to fix the submodules issue. They are there to support CI on a bunch of projects. Is there any way to mark them as not being of interest to QL? 2021-03-24T22:04:36Z rpg: They are in my `jenkins/` subdirectory, to support CI, as the title suggests. 2021-03-24T22:05:47Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-03-24T22:06:10Z remby left #lisp 2021-03-24T22:07:47Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-24T22:09:38Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-24T22:14:45Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-24T22:16:32Z alanz: I see usages like "(:use #:clim-lisp #:clim)", and also "(:use :clim :clim-lisp)". I presume they are identical? 2021-03-24T22:16:52Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, they are identical in behaviour. 2021-03-24T22:16:56Z alanz: But I imagine the first one documents more clearly what is going on 2021-03-24T22:17:15Z Shinmera: does it? 2021-03-24T22:17:22Z alanz: or rather, is there a stylistic convention as to when to use which form? 2021-03-24T22:17:25Z no-defun-allowed: I use the latter for package names; they convey the same information. 2021-03-24T22:17:37Z Shinmera: The only difference is that the latter interns those keywords. 2021-03-24T22:17:40Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-24T22:17:53Z Shinmera: I use the former, just because it costs me barely anything, but it really hardly matters. 2021-03-24T22:18:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: I like using keywords because then I can autocomplete them once they've been interned once 2021-03-24T22:18:32Z alanz: ok, so its no big deal. Is an interned keyword like an erlang atom? takes up space forever? 2021-03-24T22:18:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, also, don't use :use 2021-03-24T22:19:12Z Shinmera: alanz: until it's uninterned, sure. 2021-03-24T22:19:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: alanz: yeah, until nothing references it 2021-03-24T22:19:25Z alanz: This is copy/paste from mcclim Examples/views.lisp 2021-03-24T22:19:40Z alanz: ok, so you can undo it then. Great 2021-03-24T22:19:51Z no-defun-allowed: Keywords stick around until they are uninterned (like any other interned symbol). 2021-03-24T22:19:54Z kini quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T22:19:59Z alanz: what should happen instead of :use? 2021-03-24T22:20:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think using :clim-lisp is ok (and intended) 2021-03-24T22:20:29Z Shinmera: :use is fine when it's expressly intended. 2021-03-24T22:20:45Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, for CLIM you are supposed to (:use :clim :clim-lisp) as CLIM-LISP can patch up some Common Lisp functions. 2021-03-24T22:20:46Z Shinmera: otherwise, use fully qualified names, and package-local-nicknames if the package name is long. 2021-03-24T22:20:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: but, it's generally better to either write out package/symbol names or use :import :clim :define-presentation-types 2021-03-24T22:20:59Z alanz: ok, That was just a fragment out of the header section, to illustrate the # 2021-03-24T22:21:05Z louis771 quit (Quit: My M1 has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-24T22:21:11Z kini joined #lisp 2021-03-24T22:21:46Z alanz should read the packaging docs some time. Winging it at the moment. Cargo cult FTW 2021-03-24T22:21:55Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-03-24T22:22:02Z dhil quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-24T22:23:21Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-24T22:25:03Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-24T22:37:56Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-24T22:38:37Z pve quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-24T22:41:52Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2021-03-24T22:42:19Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-24T22:45:29Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-24T22:57:10Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-24T22:58:35Z Helmholtz joined #lisp 2021-03-24T23:04:08Z OlCe joined #lisp 2021-03-24T23:05:53Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-24T23:06:11Z jmercouris: Why was symbolics named symbolics? 2021-03-24T23:06:45Z rodentrabies joined #lisp 2021-03-24T23:06:56Z no-defun-allowed: Symbolic computation? 2021-03-24T23:09:55Z jmercouris: What does that even mean? 2021-03-24T23:10:15Z aap: it means you manipulate symbols instead of numbers 2021-03-24T23:10:53Z jmercouris: I don’t think that’s the meaning here 2021-03-24T23:10:57Z jmercouris: Seems very unlikely 2021-03-24T23:11:05Z aap: what? 2021-03-24T23:11:31Z jmercouris: I’m saying the name doesn’t seem to be derived from symbolic computation 2021-03-24T23:11:51Z jmercouris: There are plenty of languages that predate the formation of symbolics that supported symbolic computation 2021-03-24T23:11:53Z aap: but that's like the core idea of lisp 2021-03-24T23:12:04Z aap: so it seems extremely likely to me 2021-03-24T23:12:06Z jmercouris: Is that so? 2021-03-24T23:12:09Z aap: yes 2021-03-24T23:12:15Z jmercouris: Really? 2021-03-24T23:12:19Z aap: the whole point of lisp was to do symbolic computation 2021-03-24T23:12:29Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-03-24T23:12:30Z jmercouris: I thought the core idea of lisp is SEXP and list processing 2021-03-24T23:12:36Z jmercouris: Hence the name, LISP 2021-03-24T23:12:58Z aap: symbolic differentiation was one of the original problems 2021-03-24T23:13:18Z aap: well you gotta represent symbols somehow, that's where SEXPs come in 2021-03-24T23:13:19Z jmercouris: What is symbolic differentiation? 2021-03-24T23:13:30Z aap: like x^2 -> 2x 2021-03-24T23:13:43Z aap: differentiation mathematical formulae 2021-03-24T23:13:51Z aap: s/tion/ting/ 2021-03-24T23:14:22Z jmercouris: X^2 -> (* x x) 2021-03-24T23:14:34Z jmercouris: How did you come up with 2x? 2021-03-24T23:14:46Z aap: that's the derivative of x^2 2021-03-24T23:14:58Z jmercouris: Oh that’s what you mean 2021-03-24T23:15:34Z aap: lisp was designed for these sort of problems 2021-03-24T23:15:40Z jmercouris: I see 2021-03-24T23:15:45Z jmercouris: Wonder why 2021-03-24T23:15:57Z jmercouris: FORTRAN seems just as capable 2021-03-24T23:16:08Z White_Flame: fortran doesn't have symbols? 2021-03-24T23:16:14Z aap: i dare you to write a program to do symbolic differentiation in fortran 2021-03-24T23:16:27Z aap: and i mean FORTRAN I 2021-03-24T23:16:30Z aap: or maybe II 2021-03-24T23:17:15Z jmercouris: I’m good 2021-03-24T23:17:19Z jmercouris: No thanks :-) 2021-03-24T23:17:39Z jmercouris: It’s just that Fortran bills itself as suited for numerical computation 2021-03-24T23:17:45Z jmercouris: Which is I guess different 2021-03-24T23:18:00Z aap: https://pastebin.com/x9GDsRrv 2021-03-24T23:18:07Z aap: differentiation from an early lisp paper 2021-03-24T23:18:16Z aap: before lisp was even fully implemented 2021-03-24T23:18:25Z OlCe quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T23:18:40Z White_Flame: jmercouris: exactly, and numerical computation is not symbolic computation. Fortran doesn't take equations at runtime in symbolic form and transform them 2021-03-24T23:18:48Z jmercouris: Doesn’t look like CL to me 2021-03-24T23:18:58Z aap: obviously not 2021-03-24T23:19:16Z White_Flame: mexprs! 2021-03-24T23:19:43Z OlCe joined #lisp 2021-03-24T23:19:49Z aap: it's a sort of pseudocode. mexpr syntax was never fully specified i believe (certainly not when this paper was written) 2021-03-24T23:19:51Z jmercouris: Were there no languages at the time that supported this? 2021-03-24T23:20:04Z jmercouris: I find it really hard to imagine lisp was the first 2021-03-24T23:20:49Z aap: there was ipl but it was rather cryptic afaik. never looked into it much 2021-03-24T23:21:06Z semz: lisp is surprisingly old 2021-03-24T23:21:12Z aap: meanwhile lisp is super friendly, so it definitely was the right idea 2021-03-24T23:21:14Z jasom: jmercouris: 1959 I think? 2021-03-24T23:21:35Z jmercouris: I know it is old 2021-03-24T23:21:49Z jmercouris: I just find it hard to believe that nobody else was doing this 2021-03-24T23:22:02Z jmercouris: Feels very unlikely 2021-03-24T23:22:15Z aap: as i said, maybe look into IPL 2021-03-24T23:22:26Z aap: but other than that people were mostly writing assembly at the time 2021-03-24T23:22:37Z jmercouris: Dark times 2021-03-24T23:22:51Z aap: assembly is fun 2021-03-24T23:23:06Z kini quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T23:24:23Z kini joined #lisp 2021-03-24T23:24:48Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-24T23:24:53Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-24T23:24:57Z rpg quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2021-03-24T23:25:47Z jasom: Logic Theorist was IPL and arguably did symbolic computation of logic problems 2021-03-24T23:26:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: Not just symbolic differentiation, though, there was also the whole "symbolic AI" thing: knowledge representation, etc. 2021-03-24T23:27:28Z aeth: re "the whole point of lisp was to do symbolic computation"... be a rebel, do numeric computation 2021-03-24T23:27:35Z jasom: I would say that Logic Theorist predates Lisp by over 2 years and does symbolic computation 2021-03-24T23:27:43Z aap: right, the whole idea of objects having a list of properties was thought up for this 2021-03-24T23:28:10Z aeth: (make-array 42 :initial-element 0d0 :element-type 'double-float) 2021-03-24T23:28:46Z aap: numbers were initially represented *extremely* inefficiently 2021-03-24T23:29:11Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-24T23:30:55Z edgar-rft: yeah, by the Romans for example 2021-03-24T23:31:10Z aap: LISP 1 did it even worse! 2021-03-24T23:31:19Z igemnace joined #lisp 2021-03-24T23:32:25Z edgar-rft: yes, but this is a Common Lisp channel, LISP 1 is -> ##lisp 2021-03-24T23:33:38Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-24T23:33:43Z aeth: Technically speaking, both are in Common Lisp. 2021-03-24T23:33:55Z aeth: Your initial old LISP program should run, and you should be able to output Roman numerals 2021-03-24T23:34:38Z aeth: no built-in Roman numeral parser, though, unfortunately. 2021-03-24T23:35:02Z aap: you have an apply toplevel in lisp 1 though. so you'll have to implement that first 2021-03-24T23:35:26Z aap: and then anything directly working with property lists might not quite work as expected 2021-03-24T23:35:57Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-24T23:37:08Z xsperry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T23:37:26Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-24T23:38:18Z copec: Anyone here use roswell? Have you run into this? https://unaen.org/pb/22e 2021-03-24T23:43:08Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-24T23:43:09Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-24T23:43:23Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-24T23:43:34Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1) 2021-03-24T23:47:35Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-03-24T23:49:13Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-24T23:54:03Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T23:54:29Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-24T23:56:40Z srandon111 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-25T00:04:43Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-25T00:05:21Z marusich quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-25T00:05:24Z louis771 quit (Quit: My M1 has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-25T00:10:12Z perrier-jouet joined #lisp 2021-03-25T00:11:04Z marusich joined #lisp 2021-03-25T00:23:54Z MrtnDk[m]: Is there example code with "label"? I think I figured out flet, but the info documentation on sbcl seems very superficial. 2021-03-25T00:24:23Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-25T00:25:14Z Bike: clhs labels 2021-03-25T00:25:14Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_flet_.htm 2021-03-25T00:25:18Z Bike: this? 2021-03-25T00:25:22Z Bike: or did you mean something else? 2021-03-25T00:36:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is something like racket's redex library available for CL? 2021-03-25T00:43:15Z Xach: fiddlerwoaroof: what does that do? 2021-03-25T00:44:35Z MrtnDk[m]: Bike Thanks! Turns out I messed up by misspelling "labels" "label". 2021-03-25T00:45:25Z MrtnDk[m]: I wonder how I can get that nice documentation into my info tree. 2021-03-25T00:46:05Z DateMasamune2000 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T00:55:09Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-25T00:56:41Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T00:58:14Z elusive joined #lisp 2021-03-25T00:59:16Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-25T01:03:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: Xach: it's a way of specifying operational semantics for programming languages, basically 2021-03-25T01:03:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://redex.racket-lang.org 2021-03-25T01:05:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: it also provides a kind of grammar-directed pattern matching too 2021-03-25T01:09:53Z Bike: MrtnDk[m]: the sbcl documentation on standard operators is sparse because it's expected you'll be using the CLHS or something. there's a way to get the hyperspec into emacs info... i think it's explained on cliki or something 2021-03-25T01:10:45Z marusich quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-25T01:12:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: MrtnDk[m]: if you're using emacs, it's possible to add some advice to make hyperspec-lookup open documentation in eww instead of your system web browser 2021-03-25T01:13:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, I don't think there's a texinfo version of clhs, and clhs itself is non-free 2021-03-25T01:14:04Z Bike: https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/CommonLispHyperspec 2021-03-25T01:17:14Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-25T01:18:00Z MrtnDk[m]: If I read that correctly, getting the right version of slime will include hyperspec lookups? 2021-03-25T01:18:30Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-25T01:19:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: MrtnDk[m]: If you've installed slime, you should have a hyperspec-lookup command accessible via M-x 2021-03-25T01:23:27Z hjudt quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-25T01:23:40Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T01:25:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: I use something like this to make the hyperspec page showup in emacs: https://fwoar.co/pastebin/29bff587b9d6fbca152abbb8cf9ff0385000cd6b.nil.html 2021-03-25T01:26:10Z MrtnDk[m]: fiddlerwoaroof I don't have the slime from quick Lisp yet, but I guess it works anyway. However, it fires off a browser, to look up a single word. 2021-03-25T01:28:31Z MrtnDk[m]: Ah, that looks nice. I guess I just have to configure Emacs to use eww instead of the external browser. 2021-03-25T01:29:03Z MrtnDk[m]: fiddlerwoaroof I suppose that goes in your .emacs-like file? 2021-03-25T01:31:24Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-25T01:32:50Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T01:33:53Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-03-25T01:36:23Z wxie joined #lisp 2021-03-25T01:37:45Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-25T01:40:48Z specbot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-25T01:41:10Z minion quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-03-25T01:41:11Z specbot joined #lisp 2021-03-25T01:41:13Z minion joined #lisp 2021-03-25T01:41:57Z MrtnDk[m]: Ahhh, your code automatically switches to eww, I guess. Very nice. 2021-03-25T02:04:20Z indathrone joined #lisp 2021-03-25T02:06:21Z mpontillo quit (Changing host) 2021-03-25T02:06:21Z mpontillo joined #lisp 2021-03-25T02:06:21Z mpontillo quit (Changing host) 2021-03-25T02:06:21Z mpontillo joined #lisp 2021-03-25T02:07:38Z long4mud joined #lisp 2021-03-25T02:08:57Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-25T02:13:09Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-03-25T02:19:59Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-25T02:22:20Z semz joined #lisp 2021-03-25T02:25:29Z MrtnDk[m]: fiddlerwoaroof (setq common-lisp-hyperspec-root "file:///usr/share/doc/hyperspec") ;;; this will allow eww to access your local copy. 2021-03-25T02:25:54Z MrtnDk[m]: ups ... I forgot a / after hyperspec 2021-03-25T02:26:48Z kini quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-25T02:28:08Z kini joined #lisp 2021-03-25T02:29:07Z marusich joined #lisp 2021-03-25T02:31:01Z imuo joined #lisp 2021-03-25T02:34:19Z metehan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-25T02:45:23Z hineios9 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T02:46:18Z hineios quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-25T02:46:18Z hineios9 is now known as hineios 2021-03-25T02:46:30Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-25T02:47:34Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-03-25T02:56:12Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-25T03:01:28Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-25T03:01:53Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-03-25T03:15:45Z semz joined #lisp 2021-03-25T03:16:27Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-25T03:19:09Z stalwart quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-03-25T03:23:37Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-25T03:24:35Z prxq_ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T03:28:52Z prxq quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-25T03:38:20Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T03:43:02Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-25T03:48:26Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-25T03:48:34Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-03-25T03:50:27Z lowryder joined #lisp 2021-03-25T03:58:22Z elusive quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-25T04:00:43Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2021-03-25T04:02:03Z Alfr quit (Killed (karatkievich.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))) 2021-03-25T04:02:07Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-03-25T04:04:00Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2021-03-25T04:07:52Z MrtnDk[m]: beach beach good morning 2021-03-25T04:12:45Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-25T04:28:04Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-03-25T04:28:57Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-25T04:33:37Z phossil joined #lisp 2021-03-25T04:34:17Z Spawns_Carpeting quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-25T04:41:24Z imuo quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-25T04:43:05Z cchristiansen joined #lisp 2021-03-25T04:43:46Z asarch joined #lisp 2021-03-25T04:58:39Z Spawns_Carpeting joined #lisp 2021-03-25T05:12:02Z kini quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-25T05:12:49Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-03-25T05:13:18Z kini joined #lisp 2021-03-25T05:14:46Z beach: MrtnDk[m]: From reading your questions, it looks to me like you are trying to iteration in Common Lisp using recursion and tail recursion, the way it is done in Scheme. That is not the best way to do it in Common Lisp. 2021-03-25T05:15:42Z DateMasamune2000 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-25T05:16:23Z MrtnDk[m]: beach beach you're correct. I didn't realise that. 2021-03-25T05:17:30Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-25T05:19:21Z beach: Tail recursion is a beautiful theoretical construct, but programs that use it are often hard to read, especially if they were artificially turned into tail recursive programs by the technique(s) shown in the text books. 2021-03-25T05:19:22Z beach: Plus, the Common Lisp standard does not guarantee that tail calls will be optimized, so you are likely to overflow the stack even for lists of modest length. 2021-03-25T05:21:01Z xsperry joined #lisp 2021-03-25T05:21:22Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-25T05:21:55Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-25T05:27:45Z MrtnDk[m]: Also, I guess common lisp had constructs that makes it easier to avoid recursion. 2021-03-25T05:27:54Z beach: clhs loop 2021-03-25T05:27:55Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_loop.htm 2021-03-25T05:28:42Z beach: MrtnDk[m]: If you look in the Common Lisp HyperSpec table of contents, you will see a chapter entitled "Iteration". That's a good way to start. 2021-03-25T05:29:20Z MrtnDk[m]: Nice. 2021-03-25T05:30:13Z beach: There are several iteration constructs, but LOOP is pretty much the only one you need, and it is often the best choice in terms of creating readable programs. 2021-03-25T05:30:20Z MrtnDk[m]: Thanks to fiddlerwoaroof , I managed to get hyperspec lookups to work within Emacs. 2021-03-25T05:33:13Z MrtnDk[m]: Oh, loop is very flexible. 2021-03-25T05:35:23Z sloanr joined #lisp 2021-03-25T05:35:57Z DateMasamune2000 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T05:37:53Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-25T05:40:05Z quazimodo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-25T05:44:03Z marusich quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-25T05:44:57Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-03-25T05:46:37Z moon-child: eh, depends 2021-03-25T05:46:45Z DateMasamune2000 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-25T05:46:50Z moon-child: imo mapcar is generally clearer than loop+collect 2021-03-25T05:48:23Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2021-03-25T05:52:58Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-25T05:55:19Z beach: I find that to be true only if the function you apply is already defined with a name. 2021-03-25T05:55:41Z beach: As soon as you need to use an anonymous function, things get more complicated. 2021-03-25T05:56:10Z White_Flame: I made a dolist shaped macro for do-mapcar, for readability. (do-mapcar (item list) ..body) 2021-03-25T05:56:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: beach: you can get pretty far if you like combinators :) 2021-03-25T05:56:52Z White_Flame: often syntactically, the list parameter to mapcar is a single term, and is at the end of a long lambda, and is visually less discernable 2021-03-25T05:57:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: (mapcar (key "foo") hash-tables) 2021-03-25T05:57:10Z no-defun-allowed: I found REDUCE handy for some macros which generate nested outputs, like an implementation of COND from IF. 2021-03-25T05:57:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: I always think of REDUCE as being for implementing more specialized iteration constructs 2021-03-25T05:57:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: e.g. the implementation of MAPCAR might use REDUCE 2021-03-25T06:01:31Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-25T06:01:31Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2021-03-25T06:01:31Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-25T06:05:05Z PynDragon joined #lisp 2021-03-25T06:05:15Z MrtnDk[m]: fiddlerwoaroof Thank you for the help with hyperspec. I found one thing to add, for mine to work: (setq common-lisp-hyperspec-root "file:///usr/share/doc/hyperspec/") ;;; this will allow eww to access the local copy. But huge help. It works now. 2021-03-25T06:07:22Z phossil quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2021-03-25T06:09:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: MrtnDk[m]: no problem, I've always just used the online version, but that makes sense 2021-03-25T06:09:59Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-03-25T06:11:24Z MrtnDk[m]: I consider disabling pictures, but it works nicely already. 2021-03-25T06:12:01Z jacks2 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T06:15:39Z MrtnDk[m]: The links and everything. 2021-03-25T06:15:45Z jacks2: lighter lambda and/or partial application syntax (made with regular or reader macro) would help with mapcar readability 2021-03-25T06:16:14Z kini quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-25T06:17:33Z kini joined #lisp 2021-03-25T06:20:21Z hjudt joined #lisp 2021-03-25T06:20:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: (mapcar (compose '1+ (key "foo") 'parse-json) api-results)) 2021-03-25T06:20:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: It takes a while to get used to this style, but it reads really nicely once you do 2021-03-25T06:21:31Z jacks2: it is still very noisy 2021-03-25T06:21:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: compared to Haskell, I guess 2021-03-25T06:22:44Z jacks2: yes, but even to clojure 2021-03-25T06:23:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: It looks more or less the same as the equivalent clojure 2021-03-25T06:23:03Z no-defun-allowed: I wrote a MAP<- once which looks something like (map<- mapcar 1+ (key "foo") parse-json api-results) 2021-03-25T06:23:13Z jacks2: (mapcar (lambda (x) (* 10 x)) '(1 2 3)) vs (map #(* 10 %) '(1 2 3)) vs map (*10) [1, 2, 3] 2021-03-25T06:23:24Z jacks2: we could do at least as good as #2, or maybe even approach #3 2021-03-25T06:24:33Z ajithmk_ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T06:24:55Z no-defun-allowed: You could simplify to get to (mapcar<- (* 10) '(1 2 3)) but I always used MAP<- with lparallel. 2021-03-25T06:25:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: jacks2: I've written quite a bit of Clojure professionally and I don't find there's a clear winner here in terms of readibility 2021-03-25T06:25:59Z jacks2: no-defun-allowed, I think better approach is to make lambda syntax, that can be used anywhere, than to make a special mapcar 2021-03-25T06:26:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: I really don't like the various limitations of #(...): I almost always ended up switching to (fn [..]...) 2021-03-25T06:26:45Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-25T06:26:56Z no-defun-allowed: jacks2: Okay, disregard all that then. 2021-03-25T06:28:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: I use SERAPEUM:OP occasionally, though: https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/data-lens/blob/master/t/transducers.lisp#L185 2021-03-25T06:28:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: Auto-currying is more or less incompatible with variadic functions, unfortunately 2021-03-25T06:30:11Z DateMasamune2000 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T06:36:51Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T06:37:46Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-25T06:38:35Z ajithmk_: Hey all, who have worked with socket programming,I am new to this. So I have a listen-func which connects a udp socket and listens on that. When I run it in repl it blocks on socket-listen. But when I send an udp packet on to the same ip/port from terminal, it does not seem to receive the data and hence listen-func does not return. What am I doing wrong here? Thanks 2021-03-25T06:38:35Z ajithmk_: https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/mbKhWgXI/Screenshot%20from%202021-03-25%2011-48-06.png 2021-03-25T06:38:40Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T06:40:02Z Alfr quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-25T06:42:21Z hjudt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-25T06:43:19Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-25T06:45:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: ajithmk_: this isn't the problem, but you might consider binding *socket* with LET rather than SETF 2021-03-25T06:47:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: also, I don't think connect/receive is right, is it? I'm not an expert, but isn't it normally another pair of functions? 2021-03-25T06:47:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: bind/accept or something? 2021-03-25T06:47:59Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-03-25T06:50:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: (ignore that, I was wrong) 2021-03-25T06:50:37Z ajithmk_: Good catch about setf/let. 2021-03-25T06:50:37Z ajithmk_: Well, I am following the api documented here. https://common-lisp.net/project/usocket/api-docs.shtml 2021-03-25T06:53:38Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-25T06:54:25Z DateMasamune2000 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-25T06:54:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I think you actually want (socket-connect nil nil :protocol :datagram :local-host "127.0.0.1" :local-port 2003) 2021-03-25T06:55:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://github.com/usocket/usocket/blob/master/test/test-datagram.lisp 2021-03-25T06:56:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: And, I think SOCKET-SERVER will work better, geenrally 2021-03-25T06:56:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: Anyways, I'm not an expert or anything just reporting what worked for me 2021-03-25T06:57:05Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-25T07:01:27Z ajithmk_: That is it. local-host local-port worked. 2021-03-25T07:01:48Z ajithmk_: Yeah. I am experimenting with all those functions 2021-03-25T07:02:03Z ajithmk_: Thanks @fiddlerwoaroof 2021-03-25T07:09:07Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2021-03-25T07:14:05Z scymtym joined #lisp 2021-03-25T07:29:58Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-25T07:30:45Z phossil joined #lisp 2021-03-25T07:30:53Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-25T07:32:21Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2021-03-25T07:33:19Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-03-25T07:33:28Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-25T07:33:41Z surabax joined #lisp 2021-03-25T07:33:50Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-25T07:42:57Z PynDragon quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-25T07:43:13Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-03-25T07:44:32Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T07:45:02Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-25T07:45:07Z momozor joined #lisp 2021-03-25T07:45:52Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-03-25T07:46:06Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2021-03-25T07:49:15Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-03-25T07:49:19Z rogersm quit 2021-03-25T07:50:01Z midre quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-25T07:50:12Z moon-child quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-25T07:50:23Z moon-child joined #lisp 2021-03-25T07:51:07Z midre joined #lisp 2021-03-25T07:57:25Z moon-child quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-25T07:57:38Z moon-child joined #lisp 2021-03-25T07:59:44Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T08:01:37Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-25T08:02:16Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-25T08:03:29Z kini quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-25T08:08:09Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T08:09:00Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-25T08:11:39Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-25T08:11:58Z no-defun-allowed: Following the SIMD-accelerated concurrent hash table, here is an unnecessarily fast modification of a base64 encoder/decoder: 2021-03-25T08:12:26Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2021-03-25T08:12:49Z no-defun-allowed: There is no point to this fork, other than I wanted to learn how they do base64 encoding in branch-free vector code, and I still don't really know, so it is completely pointless. 2021-03-25T08:17:27Z flip214: no-defun-allowed: to be on par with other implementations, you'd need the uri-encoded versions etc. also ;) 2021-03-25T08:17:46Z no-defun-allowed: Exactly, but as I don't understand the tables at all, I probably have no hope writing my own :) 2021-03-25T08:18:25Z flip214: not accepting whitespace is a problem anyway, I guess 2021-03-25T08:18:29Z frost-lab31 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T08:18:58Z flip214: well, please *don't* make it available on QL, it's hard enough to find the "most active" (to not say "best") implementation of standard tasks there already 2021-03-25T08:19:06Z no-defun-allowed: Well, the encode-table is pretty transparent about what you'd change to get a different output, but decoding is just magic. 2021-03-25T08:19:51Z no-defun-allowed: flip214: Of course. And it also needs cl-simd, which is broken except for my fork, and that only works on a slightly old SBCL... Though the master branch does do better input validation, so I would like to get that upstream. 2021-03-25T08:20:57Z OlCe quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-25T08:21:43Z frost-lab quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-25T08:27:48Z Helmholtz quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-25T08:31:29Z pve joined #lisp 2021-03-25T08:35:56Z jasom quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-25T08:40:00Z asarch joined #lisp 2021-03-25T08:43:02Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-25T08:48:23Z OlCe joined #lisp 2021-03-25T08:56:34Z zooey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-25T08:56:44Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-25T08:56:56Z zooey joined #lisp 2021-03-25T08:57:29Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-25T08:58:42Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-25T09:03:32Z prxq_ quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-03-25T09:03:43Z prxq joined #lisp 2021-03-25T09:04:54Z momozor left #lisp 2021-03-25T09:07:29Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-25T09:07:37Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-25T09:09:26Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-03-25T09:19:34Z Spawns_Carpeting quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-25T09:19:50Z Spawns_Carpeting joined #lisp 2021-03-25T09:21:43Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-25T09:22:33Z zooey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-25T09:22:41Z ajithmk_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-25T09:25:27Z zooey joined #lisp 2021-03-25T09:35:03Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-03-25T09:42:25Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-03-25T09:48:04Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-25T09:50:57Z kslt1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-25T09:52:14Z vhost- quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-25T09:52:49Z kslt1 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T09:59:12Z cchristiansen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-25T10:00:06Z vegansbane6963 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-03-25T10:00:23Z vhost- joined #lisp 2021-03-25T10:00:54Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-25T10:03:34Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-25T10:05:03Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-25T10:12:01Z phossil quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-25T10:17:31Z tiwEllien joined #lisp 2021-03-25T10:21:18Z nij joined #lisp 2021-03-25T10:21:19Z pve quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-25T10:21:45Z nij: Is it possible to tell if CL-SELENIUM covers all functionalities of selenium? https://common-lisp.net/project/cl-selenium/tutorial.html 2021-03-25T10:22:09Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T10:22:14Z tiwEllien quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-25T10:22:23Z nij: I want to try selenium out.. but find it hard to with-stand non-parensism.. hopefully cl-selenium can save me on that. 2021-03-25T10:30:02Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-25T10:33:15Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T10:34:51Z jasom joined #lisp 2021-03-25T10:36:19Z igemnace quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-25T10:39:15Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T10:44:02Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-25T10:44:20Z OlCe quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-25T10:45:38Z OlCe joined #lisp 2021-03-25T10:48:46Z dhil joined #lisp 2021-03-25T11:05:08Z Xach: /win 2 2021-03-25T11:05:22Z no-defun-allowed: Congratulations! 2021-03-25T11:10:07Z pankajsg quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2021-03-25T11:11:10Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-03-25T11:13:40Z Noisytoot quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-25T11:13:57Z DateMasamune2000 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T11:18:15Z entel quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-25T11:22:49Z jmercouris: I'm looking for something like uiop:read-file-string but to write file string 2021-03-25T11:22:51Z jmercouris: exists? 2021-03-25T11:23:24Z jackdaniel: alexandria:write-string-into-file 2021-03-25T11:23:44Z jmercouris: that does work, I was hoping to find something in UIOP, but that is fine, thank you 2021-03-25T11:24:45Z jackdaniel: one uiop to rule them all, one uiop to bring them down, one uiop to bug us all, one uiop to tie them all (to asdf) 2021-03-25T11:24:51Z jackdaniel: choir starts singing in the background 2021-03-25T11:25:10Z jackdaniel: s/them all/your app/ 2021-03-25T11:25:24Z jackdaniel: n.b alexandria is capable of reading a file too! 2021-03-25T11:25:39Z jmercouris: n.b? 2021-03-25T11:25:49Z jackdaniel: nota bene 2021-03-25T11:25:56Z jmercouris: I see 2021-03-25T11:26:23Z jacks2 quit (Quit: http://www.okay.uz/ (Session timeout)) 2021-03-25T11:26:35Z jackdaniel: apparently I should put a dot after the second letter too 2021-03-25T11:27:31Z jmercouris: that is correct 2021-03-25T11:28:03Z nij: uiop.. not good? 2021-03-25T11:28:16Z jmercouris: didn't you just hear jackdaniel sing the praises of uiop? 2021-03-25T11:28:48Z jackdaniel: nij: it has its good and bad sides; some may be seen as controversial 2021-03-25T11:29:16Z nij: that's why i ask 2021-03-25T11:30:18Z jmercouris: I like UIOP 2021-03-25T11:30:26Z jmercouris: I do not like how convoluted the source appears to me, but I like using it 2021-03-25T11:30:34Z jmercouris: too much indirection 2021-03-25T11:33:02Z pankajsg quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2021-03-25T11:35:13Z nij left #lisp 2021-03-25T11:37:08Z Odin- likes that it's basically certain to be present. 2021-03-25T11:37:32Z jackdaniel: there is a certain gotcha to that, because it really is not 2021-03-25T11:37:42Z jackdaniel: uiop is present because it is included as part of the build system 2021-03-25T11:37:54Z jackdaniel: since it is a preloaded system, quicklisp doesn't attempt to download it 2021-03-25T11:38:17Z jackdaniel: so if you are not including the buildsystem in the final executable, it is missing 2021-03-25T11:38:46Z OlCe quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-25T11:38:50Z jackdaniel: that is often oversought because sbcl simply dumps the image along with the build system 2021-03-25T11:39:34Z jackdaniel: (of course you may download uiop serparately and put it with your software bundle; uiop itself does not depend on asdf) 2021-03-25T11:40:44Z Odin-: ... welp, that's what one gets for not having dealt with distribution of binaries. 2021-03-25T11:40:47Z Odin-: :p 2021-03-25T11:41:19Z Odin-: 'cause what I was thinking was "when someone uses ASDF to load the system, UIOP is certainly there". 2021-03-25T11:41:56Z jackdaniel: sure, I thought that is what you've meant, still I think that the clarification was due 2021-03-25T11:45:25Z Odin-: It's always seemed to me that distribution in binary form has ... numerous gotchas. 2021-03-25T11:45:56Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T11:46:05Z jackdaniel: that is certainly true 2021-03-25T11:53:27Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-25T11:53:33Z frgo_ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T11:57:49Z Noisytoot joined #lisp 2021-03-25T12:01:10Z rwcom60280385034 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T12:03:51Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2021-03-25T12:05:57Z frost-lab31 quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2021-03-25T12:06:55Z jmercouris: someone wrote a REPL 2021-03-25T12:06:59Z jmercouris: I can't seem to find it on GitHub 2021-03-25T12:07:00Z jmercouris: it is for CL 2021-03-25T12:07:03Z jmercouris: anyone know what I am talking about? 2021-03-25T12:09:50Z flip214: jmercouris: are you looking for a jupyter notebook? 2021-03-25T12:09:53Z jackdaniel: sure, (loop (print (eval (read)))) ;and it works! 2021-03-25T12:10:08Z flip214: a simple text-based repl is available in any CL, AFAIK 2021-03-25T12:14:38Z jmercouris: I am well aware 2021-03-25T12:14:47Z jmercouris: I'm looking for one that has SLIME like features 2021-03-25T12:14:50Z jmercouris: it is written by someone Japanese 2021-03-25T12:14:50Z Nilby: There are a many REPLs. More specific ? for terminals? for GUI? for web? using swank? with editing/completion ? Even I wrote 2 repls so far. 2021-03-25T12:14:53Z jmercouris: can't remember their name 2021-03-25T12:15:13Z jmercouris: there is even that one on CLIKI which I am considering adapting 2021-03-25T12:15:33Z jmercouris: there we go: https://github.com/koji-kojiro/cl-repl 2021-03-25T12:15:50Z jmercouris: Tani Kojiro 2021-03-25T12:16:43Z jmercouris: I hope you all find it interesting! 2021-03-25T12:16:46Z jmercouris: I think it is a good concept 2021-03-25T12:16:55Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2021-03-25T12:20:43Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-03-25T12:21:15Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-25T12:48:46Z long4mud quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-25T12:50:54Z toorevitimirp quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-25T12:54:57Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-25T13:00:28Z DateMasamune2000 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-25T13:01:27Z warweasle joined #lisp 2021-03-25T13:05:12Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-03-25T13:10:50Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-25T13:14:49Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-25T13:16:59Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-25T13:23:08Z cmatei joined #lisp 2021-03-25T13:39:06Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T13:40:26Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-25T13:41:01Z cmatei quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-25T13:43:27Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-25T13:44:04Z orivej quit (Quit: orivej) 2021-03-25T13:44:10Z paulj joined #lisp 2021-03-25T13:45:18Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-25T13:48:18Z jmercouris: what is a way to say "write to disk"? 2021-03-25T13:48:26Z jmercouris: should I be saying "storage" instead? 2021-03-25T13:48:53Z jmercouris: I don't want to write "memory" because that carries connotation of volatility 2021-03-25T13:49:02Z jmercouris: I also don't want to write "non volatile memory" because that is very verbose 2021-03-25T13:49:29Z cosimone quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-25T13:51:59Z ebrasca: Why not "write to disk" ? 2021-03-25T13:52:11Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-25T13:52:18Z jmercouris: because it is inaccurate 2021-03-25T13:52:21Z jmercouris: we are often not using disks 2021-03-25T13:52:48Z jmercouris: there is no disk in my machine, for example, only solid state storage 2021-03-25T13:53:06Z ebrasca: "write to storage" ? 2021-03-25T13:53:20Z jmercouris: no? 2021-03-25T13:54:01Z ebrasca: I think people understand "write to disk". 2021-03-25T13:55:19Z ebrasca: whay about "write to drive"? 2021-03-25T13:57:21Z Nilby: jmercouris: When I'm searching for good names I use the softare "dict" and "dict-moby-thesaurus" which gives hundreds of possibilities, like: deposit, squirrel, stow, chronicle, enscroll, engrave, scrive ... 2021-03-25T13:58:06Z Nilby: But sometimes it's best to go with the most simple. 2021-03-25T13:59:13Z Bike: i would just say "save" i guess 2021-03-25T13:59:25Z Bike: or "write to storage" is fine too probably 2021-03-25T13:59:44Z jmercouris: OK! 2021-03-25T14:04:06Z Lord_of_Life quit (Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine) 2021-03-25T14:04:29Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2021-03-25T14:09:38Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-25T14:14:30Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-25T14:17:37Z jackdaniel: put thy in the stow 2021-03-25T14:17:42Z MrtnDk[m]: jmercouris Isn't the proper term "secondary storage"? Surely someone here remembers. 2021-03-25T14:18:26Z MrtnDk[m]: jackdaniel thy what? 2021-03-25T14:18:54Z jackdaniel: n.b. ssd is a disk 2021-03-25T14:19:31Z MrtnDk[m]: Usually I think it's actually square. 2021-03-25T14:19:33Z jackdaniel: as in: it is called a disk 2021-03-25T14:20:20Z MrtnDk[m]: jackdaniel Not to my knowledge. Why would you call something a disk, that clearly is not a disc? 2021-03-25T14:20:24Z jackdaniel: ssd expands to either solid-state device or a solid-state disk; i.e here https://www.zdnet.com/article/solid-state-disk-prices-falling-still-more-costly-than-hard-disks/ 2021-03-25T14:20:32Z MrtnDk[m]: disk* 2021-03-25T14:20:38Z jackdaniel: why would you call an atom something what is clearly divideable? 2021-03-25T14:20:43Z ChoHag: floppy disc -> hard disc -> hard square. 2021-03-25T14:21:15Z MrtnDk[m]: jackdaniel For historical reasons. They thought the atom to be indivisible. 2021-03-25T14:21:30Z ChoHag: jackdaniel: Because throughout history we have always made an effort to correct archaic terminology when new discoveries are made. 2021-03-25T14:21:38Z jackdaniel: right, and for historical reasons you have a floppy as an icon for save, and you call a disk flash drives and ssd 2021-03-25T14:21:49Z ChoHag: I also hang up the phone. 2021-03-25T14:21:57Z jackdaniel: precisely 2021-03-25T14:22:23Z MrtnDk[m]: But the notion that "errors have been made in the past, so it is ok to knowingly make new errors" is a logical fallacy. 2021-03-25T14:22:26Z ChoHag: Possibly after dialling. 2021-03-25T14:22:56Z Nilby: Software is a garbage heap of old device metaphors "floppy" "fax" "disk" "telephone". 2021-03-25T14:23:03Z ChoHag: Also now my computers are made of silicon, not flesh and blood. 2021-03-25T14:23:12Z jackdaniel: no; but the notion that the meaning of words is constant is also not true (so it is not an error that we call an atom, erm, an atom ;) 2021-03-25T14:23:13Z MrtnDk[m]: ChoHag Do you have a rotary phone, or do you consider the expression idiomatic? 2021-03-25T14:23:30Z jackdaniel: but this is offtopic 2021-03-25T14:23:33Z jackdaniel: let's focus on lisp 2021-03-25T14:23:36Z ChoHag: I haven't had a rotary phone since the previous millenium. 2021-03-25T14:24:04Z Nilby: Lisp wisely has minimal old device metaphors. 2021-03-25T14:24:13Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-25T14:24:17Z ChoHag: In that case, "write to disc", because c looks more like () than k. 2021-03-25T14:25:25Z MrtnDk[m]: Nilby: Is the term secondary storage familiar to you? 2021-03-25T14:25:56Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-25T14:25:57Z Nilby: Familiar, yes, but awkward. 2021-03-25T14:26:45Z MrtnDk[m]: Nilby: Right, but would you consider it technically correct for this purpose? 2021-03-25T14:28:04Z MrtnDk[m]: I guess we don't really care, if they store it on a fixed disc, a floppy disc, an USB-drive, an SD-card or an SSD. 2021-03-25T14:28:30Z sjl joined #lisp 2021-03-25T14:28:47Z MrtnDk[m]: Heck, they could store it on magnetic tape for all I care, or even paper tape. 😁 2021-03-25T14:29:11Z ChoHag: Given enough time, one thing you can be sure it won't be stored on is a disc. 2021-03-25T14:29:39Z jackdaniel putting on the moderator hat: "but this is offtopic, let's focus on lisp" 2021-03-25T14:29:55Z loke[m]: USB-disk, ssd-disk, etc. 2021-03-25T14:30:00Z Nilby: MrtnDk[m]: Maybe. But there's l1,l2,l3 cache, page table, main memory, disk buffer, "disk", "disk" journal, 1st level backup, 2nd level backup, ... offsite, git repo, github, arctic vaault ... 2021-03-25T14:30:09Z loke[m]: Better rename the df command in Linux as well. 2021-03-25T14:30:16Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-03-25T14:30:21Z ldbeth: good evening 2021-03-25T14:31:33Z fitzsim: someone was asking about a minimal Common Lisp script earlier this week 2021-03-25T14:31:44Z fitzsim: I had been working on that for a while, and I just published it: 2021-03-25T14:31:58Z MrtnDk[m]: cool 2021-03-25T14:32:10Z fitzsim: https://www.fitzsim.org/blog/?p=405 2021-03-25T14:32:28Z fitzsim: it's a multi-line "one-liner" 2021-03-25T14:32:35Z fitzsim: to get started 2021-03-25T14:32:41Z MrtnDk[m]: loke Then we would have to rename tar as well, I guess. 2021-03-25T14:32:42Z indathrone quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-25T14:33:08Z loke[m]: Mrtn Dk indeed 2021-03-25T14:33:43Z Xach: fitzsim: i don't quite get it. which part is the "write a script" part? 2021-03-25T14:33:52Z MrtnDk[m]: fitzsim What is dnf? Another package manager? 2021-03-25T14:33:52Z loke[m]: OSX had a program called disk utility last I have looked. I'm not sure they're planning to rename it. 2021-03-25T14:34:15Z fitzsim: Xach: it's a script template 2021-03-25T14:34:18Z loke[m]: Mrtn Dk it's the Redhat and Fedora package manager 2021-03-25T14:34:28Z Xach: fitzsim: ah 2021-03-25T14:35:11Z MrtnDk[m]: loke Oh, I thought that one was called something else, that I don't remember. 2021-03-25T14:35:53Z fitzsim: I'll update the post to put "template" in the first line 2021-03-25T14:36:10Z loke[m]: Mrtn Dk: Well, the package manager is still called rom. 2021-03-25T14:36:13Z loke[m]: I mean rpm 2021-03-25T14:36:43Z loke[m]: But on top of that there is the system that downloads packages and deals with dependencies. That used to be called yum, but was remade into dnf 2021-03-25T14:37:02Z loke[m]: Similar to how Ubuntu has dpkg, but on top of that is apt-get 2021-03-25T14:37:10Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-25T14:37:26Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-03-25T14:37:30Z MrtnDk[m]: loke My point earlier, was that there is a difference between naming and renaming. Would we have named "tar" "tape archiver" today? Maybe, maybe not. That doesn't mean we have to rename it though. 2021-03-25T14:37:58Z Xach: fitzsim: i love a good polyglot hack. I've sometimes used: ":" ; exec sbcl ... 2021-03-25T14:38:02Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T14:38:03Z loke[m]: Mrtn Dk: well I agree with you. I didn't realise that that was part of the same discussion :-) 2021-03-25T14:38:25Z MrtnDk[m]: loke 😂 2021-03-25T14:38:42Z Xach: I got it from https://www.xach.com/rpw3/articles/ne2cnUA7sqeQe7ndXTWc-w%40speakeasy.net.html 2021-03-25T14:38:47Z MrtnDk[m]: oh ... do smileys work on the IRC side? 2021-03-25T14:39:00Z loke[m]: Mrtn Dk: smileys are just characters. 2021-03-25T14:39:05Z loke[m]: I mean, emojis 2021-03-25T14:39:13Z ldbeth: works inside GUI ERC 2021-03-25T14:39:37Z loke[m]: So yes, of course they word. But if a user is using a tty-based IRC client it might not render well if their font isn't good. 2021-03-25T14:39:41Z MrtnDk[m]: Ah right. Looks weird on terminal, I guess. 2021-03-25T14:40:06Z loke[m]: Mrtn Dk: Some terminals displays coloured emojis. Konsole perhaps? 2021-03-25T14:40:15Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-25T14:40:40Z conkker joined #lisp 2021-03-25T14:40:47Z loke[m]: Ah. Gnome-terminal 2021-03-25T14:40:55Z fitzsim: Xach: clarified first line of the blog post, thanks 2021-03-25T14:41:04Z Xach: fitzsim: thanks 2021-03-25T14:41:09Z loke[m] uploaded an image: (19KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/dhsdevelopments.com/qRAnIwCfpePULcnzdCUNDhxa/image.png > 2021-03-25T14:41:25Z loke[m]: That's gnome-terminal to the left and Konsole to the right 2021-03-25T14:42:00Z MrtnDk[m]: Right, some terminal emulators would, and depending on your Font, I guess they might show in a fb terminal as well. An actual vt100 (as in a physical one) would probably be a different beast altogether. 2021-03-25T14:42:14Z fitzsim: Xach: thanks for that link, bookmarked 2021-03-25T14:42:38Z fitzsim: I started out with ":" ; ..., but then saw #| somewhere, which allows a header comment, file local variables, etc. 2021-03-25T14:42:52Z loke[m]: Mrtn Dk: True. A vt100 doesn't support UTF-8. It's only ASCII. 7-bit. 2021-03-25T14:43:17Z MrtnDk[m]: loke Ah, I didn't realise you were on the matrix side, since you haven't decided on a profile pic yet. 2021-03-25T14:43:47Z ldbeth: but both of u get [m] suffices in irc 2021-03-25T14:43:48Z loke[m]: The matrix bridge work well enough that I rarely actually use the IRC connection these days. 2021-03-25T14:44:04Z loke[m]: I do have to keep in mind which channels are IRC though so I don't use markup or start correcting typos. 2021-03-25T14:44:20Z dra joined #lisp 2021-03-25T14:44:21Z loke[m]: ldbeth: Yes. That's added by the bridge. 2021-03-25T14:44:46Z loke``: It's because I'm already logged in here 2021-03-25T14:44:51Z loke``: There 2021-03-25T14:45:33Z MrtnDk[m]: ldbeth I think you can get around that. I think I even tried to at a point, but I'm not sure if it was on the freenode bridge. 2021-03-25T14:45:33Z loke`` is now known as loe 2021-03-25T14:45:36Z loe: Fixed 2021-03-25T14:45:39Z cosimone quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 28.0.50)) 2021-03-25T14:45:43Z loe is now known as loke 2021-03-25T14:45:46Z loke: I mean fixed 2021-03-25T14:45:58Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-25T14:46:29Z MrtnDk[m]: Now we have three? 2021-03-25T14:46:49Z MrtnDk[m]: No wait, four? 2021-03-25T14:46:57Z loke[m]: Four what? 2021-03-25T14:47:05Z ldbeth: four loke? 2021-03-25T14:47:13Z jackdaniel: MrtnDk[m]: loke: please cease the offtopic 2021-03-25T14:47:19Z MrtnDk[m]: Of you. Yes. 😁 2021-03-25T14:47:24Z loke[m]: Yeah, the bridge keeps old nicks in the channel for a bit. They'll time out. 2021-03-25T14:48:01Z tiwEllien joined #lisp 2021-03-25T14:49:31Z ldbeth: backto the topic, I think cl-editline gives something handy to start write CL inside terminal 2021-03-25T14:50:33Z fitzsim: Xach: that EmacsWiki link adds Windows support (!) to the wrapper script 2021-03-25T14:51:14Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-25T14:51:42Z MrtnDk[m]: ¯_ಠ_ಠ_/¯ 2021-03-25T14:52:25Z ldbeth: 🤯 2021-03-25T14:53:57Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-25T14:57:01Z DateMasamune2000 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T14:58:35Z terpri_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-25T14:58:57Z terpri_ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T15:01:45Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-25T15:05:14Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-25T15:14:20Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-25T15:17:27Z imuo joined #lisp 2021-03-25T15:27:11Z Spawns_Carpeting quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-25T15:27:28Z Spawns_Carpeting joined #lisp 2021-03-25T15:30:20Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3)) 2021-03-25T15:35:37Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-25T15:37:56Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-25T15:38:45Z imuo quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-25T15:39:12Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-03-25T15:40:18Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-25T15:40:30Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-25T15:42:23Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-25T15:49:08Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-25T15:50:13Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-25T15:51:08Z lowryder joined #lisp 2021-03-25T15:51:42Z imuo joined #lisp 2021-03-25T15:55:36Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-25T15:55:38Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-25T15:56:36Z dra quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-25T16:00:04Z ey[m] quit (Quit: Idle for 30+ days) 2021-03-25T16:01:22Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-25T16:02:28Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-25T16:02:32Z tiwEllien quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-25T16:03:22Z tiwEllien joined #lisp 2021-03-25T16:09:33Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-25T16:15:25Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2021-03-25T16:22:53Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-25T16:24:51Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-03-25T16:25:37Z paulj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-25T16:34:47Z imuo quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-25T16:35:07Z imuo joined #lisp 2021-03-25T16:35:43Z madage quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-25T16:38:35Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-03-25T16:38:38Z ldbeth quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-03-25T16:40:36Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-25T16:42:20Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-25T16:44:01Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-03-25T16:44:07Z madage joined #lisp 2021-03-25T16:44:09Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-25T16:46:45Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-25T16:51:31Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-25T16:56:18Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-25T16:59:54Z luckless_ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T16:59:58Z ebrasca: Why we need a bridge? 2021-03-25T16:59:59Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-25T17:01:17Z MrtnDk[m]: ebrasca Let's stick to the Lisp topic, as Jack Daniels requested. 2021-03-25T17:03:13Z luckless quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-25T17:08:36Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:09:01Z imuo: i pop in and out, so i've missed it if anyone replied 2021-03-25T17:09:12Z imuo: is there any forum backend written in c. lisp? 2021-03-25T17:09:26Z imuo: i enjoy phpbb as a user, but alas not as a programmer 2021-03-25T17:10:40Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:13:37Z Shinmera: I wrote an imageboard, but not a traditional bb. 2021-03-25T17:14:03Z Shinmera: https://github.com/shirakumo/purplish 2021-03-25T17:15:07Z imuo: ah thanks for sharing and doing :) 2021-03-25T17:15:32Z Shinmera: Sure. Been using it for years so I at least know that project is pretty stable 2021-03-25T17:16:59Z imuo: but alas, i am personally interested in creating a space for sharing knowledge and having deep discussions in a particular topic i have great interest in 2021-03-25T17:17:24Z imuo: i feel something like wikipedia combined with a traditional bb like phpBB hosted over IPFS is probably the ideal for me 2021-03-25T17:17:36Z imuo: i will however play around with purplish and see how close this comes to my interest 2021-03-25T17:18:37Z imuo: Shinmera: would you mind linking to a site that currently uses purplish so i can see how it tastes? 2021-03-25T17:18:51Z arcontethegreat[ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:18:51Z ThaEwat quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:18:51Z ecraven quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:18:51Z jackhill quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:18:51Z samebchase quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:18:52Z jurov_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:18:52Z ramus quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:18:52Z nullman quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:18:52Z davisr quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:18:52Z edgar-rft quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:18:52Z fitzsim quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:18:52Z hhdave quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:18:52Z zigpaw1076 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:18:52Z docl quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:18:52Z v3ga quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:18:52Z tessier quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:18:53Z Demosthenex quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:18:53Z nitrix quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:18:53Z ravndal quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:18:53Z jibanes quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:18:53Z stux|RC quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:18:53Z cognemo quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:18:53Z freshmaker666 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:18:53Z Ekho quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:18:53Z mtd___ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:18:53Z z0d quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:18:53Z mtd_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:18:53Z bkst_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:18:53Z Xach quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:18:53Z pacon quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:18:53Z NULLean quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:18:53Z _death quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:18:53Z xlei quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:18:53Z andreyorst quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:18:53Z ineiros quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:18:53Z grobe0ba quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:18:53Z nydel quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:18:53Z d4ryus quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:18:53Z fouric quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:18:53Z SlashLife quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:18:53Z xantoz quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:18:53Z grumble quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:18:53Z loke quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:18:53Z ober quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:18:53Z aeth quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:18:54Z zxq2 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:18:54Z alandipert quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:18:54Z phadthai quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:18:54Z ms[m] quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:18:54Z harlchen[m] quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:18:54Z susam quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:18:54Z matryoshka quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:18:54Z luna_is_here quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:18:54Z Grue` quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:18:54Z stylewarning quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:18:54Z b20n quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:18:54Z theruran_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:19:48Z ccl-logbot joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:19:48Z 2021-03-25T17:19:48Z names: ccl-logbot alandipert xantoz hdasch freshmaker666 d4ryus solrize devrtz pyc luna_is_here adeht ravndal Patternmaster cross eMBee davisr gabot jurov borodust v3ga sbryant KeyboardWorrier stylewarning loke nydel theruran_ mtd sxmx nightfly andreyorst eagleflo nitrix hhdave samebchase p9fn mood docl cognemo NULLean akkad tgbugs z0d jackhill SlashLife zigpaw1076 Colleen Demosthenex b20n grobe0ba jibanes pacon fouric ecraven phadthai Grue`` tessier ineiros_ 2021-03-25T17:19:48Z names: 7IZAAI31O varjag jonatack luckless_ madage zaquest aartaka_d Oladon imuo notzmv tiwEllien contrapunctus lowryder ukari Spawns_Carpeting terpri_ cosimone conkker Josh_2 narimiran sjl Lord_of_Life orivej warweasle Bike ebrasca bitmapper rwcom60280385034 Noisytoot frgo_ galex-713 dhil jasom vegansbane6963 vhost- kslt1 Nilby kevingal zooey prxq hendursa1 rogersm louis771 moon-child midre IPmonger random-nick shka_ villanella surabax rgherdt scymtym Alfr gaqwas 2021-03-25T17:19:48Z names: quazimodo sloanr xsperry semz hineios minion specbot __jrjsmrtn__ perrier-jouet amb007 rodentrabies Krystof raeda PuercoPop emacsomancer amk MrtnDk[m] flazh waleee-cl dvdmuckle jprajzne tmf jello_pudding HiRE johnjay phantomics Oddity oxum vaporatorius Sauvin _whitelogger HDurer Inoperable pranavats mgr_ mister_m Lord_Nightmare asdflkj no-defun-allowed Iolo ChoHag X-Scale sm2n cantstanya jdz eschatologist yang matthewcroughan etimmons infra_red[m] tweet[m] 2021-03-25T17:19:48Z names: nmg_ loke[m] Gnuxie[m] kreyren dmiles[m] Theora[m] dieggsy katco keja_ isoraqathedh Blkt idxu copec gingerale- fiddlerwoaroof Shinmera |3b| lansiir mrchampion deltab corpix_ hiroaki1 Tordek froggey l1x beach paul0 ft lottaquestions tomaw lonjil ggoes luis CrazyEddy datajerk zagura ark bjorkintosh matijja elflng gitgood hvxgr jmiven rigidus voidlily aap Aurora_v_kosmose Cthulhux cyberlard SAL9000 cpt_nemo cods rotty patrixl rixard save-lisp-or-die gpiero 2021-03-25T17:19:48Z names: drewc Mandus kbtr_ Ankhers zupss_ mseddon mathrick dbotton jrm dale spacebat2 glamas_ jxy saturn2 Gromboli samebchase- joast wooden herlocks- shoshin flip214 jgkamat cyraxjoe cg505 GreaseMonkey MetaYan gko vsync_ bonz060 yottabyte joga lavaflow diamondbond alfred188 hiredman remexre ski [df]_ leo_song spal fengshaun_ spxy_ mgsk- casual_friday creat stux|RC-only sebboh xi ozzloy Papa gaze__ conjunctive jsatk russell-- selwyn Ziemas rvirding mr_yogurt 2021-03-25T17:19:48Z names: parisienne jlpeters winny mfiano dunk pent markasoftware nullheroes justinmcp Yardanico chrpape davros palter Guest99088 nopf @fe[nl]ix interruptinuse AdmiralBumbleBee em larme easye knobo jmercouris rme Balooga buoy49 mgxm griffinbyatt billstclair dnm bytesighs drmeister CEnnis91 beaky plisp1 kim_ phoe shrysr_ felideon xristos krjt swflint Fade lieven madnificent Kingsy acolarh thonkpod ioa ilmu sgithens p_l mpontillo chewbranca drdo seisatsu gendl physpi 2021-03-25T17:19:48Z names: johs lukego avicenna Guest19918 jerme_ housel summerisle dyelar astronavt___ antoszka Nikotiini Juonu micro teej shenghi jackdaniel mjl splittist ffwacom madand_ mgsk Firedancer_ jonathan- yonkunas malm ferada_ Kabriel_ daniel1302 gensym jfb4 brass snits bmansurov troydm gabiruh zymurgy wigust thecoffemaker Khisanth Grauwolf frodef guaqua gabc shinohai sukaeto XachX mrSpec grfn tychoish dim SumoSud0 thijso engblom FennecCode kingcons Necktwi walex Odin- 2021-03-25T17:19:48Z names: terrorjack cpape APic alanz azrazalea_ pok add^__ White_Flame gigetoo travv0 Posterdati dddddd gum TMA penguwin himmAllRight 2021-03-25T17:19:49Z matryoshka joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:19:50Z grumble joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:19:55Z freshmaker666 quit (Changing host) 2021-03-25T17:19:55Z freshmaker666 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:19:56Z borodust is now known as Guest60210 2021-03-25T17:20:13Z jealousmonk joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:20:17Z nckx joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:20:32Z epony joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:20:32Z stux|RC joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:20:35Z tweet[m] quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:20:36Z tomaw quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:20:36Z lonjil quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:20:36Z CrazyEddy quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:20:36Z ark quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:20:36Z cyberlard quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:20:36Z patrixl quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:20:36Z drewc quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:20:36Z jrm quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:20:36Z glamas_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:20:36Z jxy quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:20:36Z saturn2 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:20:36Z samebchase- quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:20:46Z lonjil2 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:20:48Z ark joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:20:55Z jrm joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:20:56Z cyberlard joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:20:57Z jxy joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:20:58Z samebchase- joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:20:59Z imuo: Shinmera: thanks for the heads up. lemme put on my helmet. 2021-03-25T17:21:04Z ramus joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:21:07Z tomaw joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:21:08Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:21:13Z drewc joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:21:18Z dtman34 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:21:26Z dmiles[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-25T17:21:28Z saturn2 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:21:35Z loke[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-25T17:21:35Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-25T17:21:44Z femi joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:21:45Z glamas joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:21:51Z no-defun-allowed quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-25T17:21:52Z etimmons quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-25T17:21:53Z imuo quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:21:56Z Gnuxie[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-25T17:21:57Z kreyren quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-25T17:22:14Z teej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-25T17:22:24Z patrixl joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:22:28Z infra_red[m] quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-25T17:22:35Z katco quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-25T17:22:46Z xlei joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:22:48Z rodentrabies quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-25T17:23:04Z ck_ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:23:41Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:23:58Z Xach joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:24:06Z nullman joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:24:07Z teej joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:24:10Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-25T17:24:11Z ck__ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:24:12Z xlei quit (Excess Flood) 2021-03-25T17:24:13Z theBlackDragon joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:24:18Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:24:39Z bkst joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:24:44Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:25:03Z Theora[m] quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-25T17:25:56Z MrtnDk[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-25T17:26:03Z shka_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2021-03-25T17:26:15Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:26:41Z fitzsim joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:27:12Z imuo joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:27:18Z teej quit (Changing host) 2021-03-25T17:27:18Z teej joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:27:34Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-25T17:27:50Z Ekho joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:28:28Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:28:28Z jmiven quit (Quit: reboot) 2021-03-25T17:29:13Z jmiven joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:32:39Z dhil quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-25T17:33:04Z indathrone joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:33:10Z xlei joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:33:43Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:35:06Z nitrix quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-25T17:36:51Z nitrix joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:37:27Z ck__ quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-25T17:39:45Z grumble quit (Quit: K-Lined) 2021-03-25T17:40:00Z grumble joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:08Z indathrone quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:08Z jmiven quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:08Z patrixl quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:08Z lonjil2 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:08Z grobe0ba quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:08Z stylewarning quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:08Z b20n quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:08Z theruran_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:08Z Noisytoot quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:08Z frgo_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:08Z kslt1 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:08Z louis771 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:08Z IPmonger quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:08Z Alfr quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:08Z xsperry quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:08Z semz quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:08Z specbot quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:08Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:09Z PuercoPop quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:09Z jprajzne quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:09Z HDurer quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:09Z Lord_Nightmare quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:09Z jdz quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:09Z gko quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:09Z creat quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:09Z travv0 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:09Z XachX quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:09Z shinohai quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:09Z yonkunas quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:09Z ffwacom quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:09Z Juonu quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:09Z physpi quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:09Z seisatsu quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:09Z gendl quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:09Z drdo quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:09Z chewbranca quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:09Z sgithens quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:09Z Kingsy quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:09Z madnificent quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:09Z Fade quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:09Z shka_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:09Z xlei quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:09Z cage_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:10Z CrazyEddy quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:10Z jrm quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:10Z alandipert quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:10Z freshmaker666 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:10Z hdasch quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:10Z Patternmaster quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:10Z eMBee quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:10Z sbryant quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:10Z nydel quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:10Z mtd quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:10Z Oladon quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:10Z narimiran quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:10Z Bike quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:10Z vegansbane6963 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:10Z prxq quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:10Z surabax quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:10Z sloanr quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:10Z minion quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:10Z amb007 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:10Z amk quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:10Z Inoperable quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:10Z mgr_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:11Z matthewcroughan quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:11Z aap quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:11Z Cthulhux quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:11Z spacebat2 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:11Z remexre quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:11Z [df]_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:11Z yang quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:11Z leo_song quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:11Z gigetoo quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:11Z APic quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:11Z kingcons quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:11Z mrSpec quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:11Z wigust quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:11Z bmansurov quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:11Z jfb4 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:11Z ferada_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:11Z Firedancer_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:12Z moon-child quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:12Z asdflkj quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:12Z hiroaki1 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:12Z summerisle quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:12Z ilmu quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:12Z ioa quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:12Z xristos quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:12Z felideon quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:12Z shrysr_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:12Z plisp1 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:12Z dnm quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:12Z mgxm quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:12Z Balooga quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:12Z buoy49 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:12Z rme quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:12Z jmercouris quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:12Z em quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:12Z AdmiralBumbleBee quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:12Z nopf quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:12Z palter quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:12Z davros quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:12Z lowryder quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:12Z Spawns_Carpeting quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:12Z Josh_2 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:12Z sjl quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:12Z midre quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:12Z Krystof quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:12Z johnjay quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:12Z Sauvin quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:12Z ChoHag quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:12Z isoraqathedh quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:12Z deltab quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:13Z cods quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:13Z rotty quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:13Z herlocks- quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:13Z shoshin quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:13Z jgkamat quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:13Z alfred188 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:13Z mgsk- quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:13Z casual_friday quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:13Z pok quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:13Z add^__ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:13Z azrazalea_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:13Z cpape quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:13Z engblom quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:13Z thijso quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:13Z dim quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:13Z sukaeto quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:13Z tychoish quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:13Z frodef quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:13Z thecoffemaker quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:13Z zymurgy quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:13Z snits quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:13Z gensym quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:13Z daniel1302 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:14Z bkst quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:14Z ck_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:14Z saturn2 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:14Z samebchase- quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:14Z stux|RC quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:14Z davisr quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:14Z jurov quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:14Z gabot quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:14Z KeyboardWorrier quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:14Z sxmx quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:14Z eagleflo quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:14Z mood quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:14Z p9fn quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:14Z cognemo quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:14Z cross quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:14Z zigpaw1076 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:14Z pacon quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:14Z fouric quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:14Z varjag quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:14Z zaquest quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:14Z aartaka_d quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:14Z Lord_of_Life quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:14Z ebrasca quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:14Z vhost- quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:14Z emacsomancer quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:14Z phantomics quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:15Z mrchampion quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:15Z conkker quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:15Z save-lisp-or-die quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:15Z Mandus quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:15Z zupss_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:15Z mseddon quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:15Z Gromboli quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:15Z vsync_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:15Z lavaflow quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:15Z terrorjack quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:15Z Necktwi quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:15Z gabiruh quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:15Z troydm quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:15Z Nikotiini quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:15Z justinmcp quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:15Z nullheroes quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:15Z markasoftware quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:15Z mfiano quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:15Z Ziemas quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:15Z rvirding quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:15Z mr_yogurt quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:42:15Z prxq_ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:18Z mtd_ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:18Z add^_ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:19Z Kingsy_ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:19Z aap_ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:20Z mood_ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:21Z Faed joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:21Z Mandus_ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:21Z nopf_ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:21Z pok_ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:21Z jfb4 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:23Z Patternmaster joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:23Z eMBee joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:23Z shinohai_ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:23Z ChoHag joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:24Z jrm2 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:25Z Cthulhux` joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:25Z deltab joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:25Z p9fn joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:25Z pok_ is now known as pok 2021-03-25T17:42:25Z ferada joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:25Z Necktwi joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:26Z EPic joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:26Z thijso joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:26Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:27Z sloanr joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:27Z gigetoo_ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:29Z mfiano joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:29Z sbryant_ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:29Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:29Z Firedancer joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:29Z KeyboardWorrier joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:30Z gabiruh joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:30Z yang_ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:30Z sxmx joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:31Z kingcons joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:31Z seisatsu joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:31Z HDurer joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:31Z zigpaw1076 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:31Z mgsk_ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:31Z bmansurov joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:31Z cods joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:31Z HDurer quit (Changing host) 2021-03-25T17:42:31Z HDurer joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:31Z Ziemas joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:32Z engblom joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:32Z cpape` joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:33Z buoy49 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:34Z nydel joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:34Z plisp2 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:34Z spacebat2 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:34Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:35Z em joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:35Z madnificent joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:35Z zupss joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:36Z hdasch joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:36Z felideon_ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:37Z freshmaker666 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:37Z sgithens joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:38Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:38Z jurov joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:39Z fouric joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:39Z phantomics joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:39Z gko joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:39Z isoraqathedh joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:40Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:40Z daniel1302 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:40Z samebchase- joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:41Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:41Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:41Z xristos joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:41Z felideon_ is now known as felideon 2021-03-25T17:42:43Z semz joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:43Z sbryant_ is now known as sbryant 2021-03-25T17:42:44Z ebrasca` joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:45Z kslt1 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:45Z [df] joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:46Z ioa joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:46Z Juonu joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:46Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 249 seconds) 2021-03-25T17:42:47Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:47Z ck_ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:47Z midre joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:47Z rotty joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:48Z lavaflow joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:49Z remexre joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:50Z sjl joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:50Z vsync joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:50Z eagleflo joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:51Z leo_song joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:52Z yonkunas joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:52Z minion joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:53Z jdz joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:53Z em quit (Changing host) 2021-03-25T17:42:53Z em joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:53Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:54Z XachX joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:54Z mseddon joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:54Z mrSpec is now known as Guest75428 2021-03-25T17:42:54Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:55Z gensym joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:55Z wigust joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:55Z rme joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:55Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:55Z travv0 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:55Z cognemo joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:56Z vhost- joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:56Z jrm2 is now known as jrm 2021-03-25T17:42:57Z Spawns_Carpeting joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:58Z davros joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:58Z Sauvin joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:58Z b20n joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:42:59Z seisatsu is now known as Guest83962 2021-03-25T17:43:00Z Balooga joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:43:01Z cross joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:43:01Z lonjil joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:43:02Z troydm joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:43:04Z jmiven joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:43:04Z davisr joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:43:06Z rvirding joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:43:06Z semz quit (Changing host) 2021-03-25T17:43:06Z semz joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:43:06Z stux|RC joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:43:09Z xristos is now known as Guest5381 2021-03-25T17:43:10Z zymurgy joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:43:11Z freshmaker666 quit (Changing host) 2021-03-25T17:43:11Z freshmaker666 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:43:13Z vhost- quit (Changing host) 2021-03-25T17:43:13Z vhost- joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:43:13Z gigetoo_ is now known as gigetoo 2021-03-25T17:43:14Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:43:15Z theruran_ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:43:16Z asdflkj joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:43:16Z XachX quit (Changing host) 2021-03-25T17:43:16Z XachX joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:43:16Z nullheroes joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:43:17Z lowryder joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:43:17Z gendl joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:43:17Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:43:18Z CrazyEddy quit (Changing host) 2021-03-25T17:43:18Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:43:19Z palter joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:43:20Z ilmu joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:43:20Z saturn2 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:43:20Z sukaeto joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:43:23Z dnm joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:43:23Z alfred188 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:43:24Z stylewarning joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:43:25Z gabot joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:43:25Z mr_yogurt joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:43:26Z chewbranca joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:43:29Z physpi joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:43:29Z shrysr_ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:43:30Z specbot joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:43:31Z Guest5381 quit (Changing host) 2021-03-25T17:43:31Z Guest5381 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:43:31Z ffwacom joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:43:40Z chewbranca quit (Changing host) 2021-03-25T17:43:40Z chewbranca joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:43:47Z AdmiralBumbleBee joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:43:48Z mgr_ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:43:58Z thecoffemaker joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:44:00Z grobe0ba joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:44:00Z thecoffemaker quit (Changing host) 2021-03-25T17:44:00Z thecoffemaker joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:44:01Z summerisle joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:44:04Z casual_friday joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:44:05Z markasoftware joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:44:06Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:44:06Z mrchampion joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:44:07Z Inoperable joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:44:09Z emacsomancer joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:44:11Z mgxm joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:44:12Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:44:13Z azrazalea joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:44:13Z tychoish joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:44:15Z indathrone joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:44:15Z surabax joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:44:16Z matthewcroughan joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:44:17Z herlocksholmes joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:44:19Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:44:19Z Noisytoot_ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:44:21Z amk joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:44:26Z jgkamat joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:44:29Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:44:32Z johnjay joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:44:36Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:44:36Z drdo joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:44:37Z PuercoPop joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:44:37Z creat joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:44:43Z Oladon quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-25T17:44:43Z dim joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:44:53Z frodef joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:45:21Z justinmcp joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:45:35Z patrixl joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:45:35Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:45:47Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:46:27Z Guest75428 quit (Changing host) 2021-03-25T17:46:27Z Guest75428 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:46:38Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:46:51Z jsatk quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-25T17:47:23Z pacon joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:47:26Z Noisytoot_ is now known as Noisytoot 2021-03-25T17:47:38Z snits joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:47:39Z bkst joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:47:43Z jsatk joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:47:51Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-25T17:47:52Z Noisytoot is now known as Noisytoot__ 2021-03-25T17:47:54Z Noisytoot__ is now known as Noisytoot 2021-03-25T17:48:13Z teej quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-25T17:48:49Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-25T17:49:03Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:49:21Z Guest5381 is now known as xristos` 2021-03-25T17:49:38Z xristos` is now known as xristos 2021-03-25T17:49:40Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-25T17:50:03Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:50:43Z shinohai_ is now known as shinohai 2021-03-25T17:52:07Z moon-child joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:52:07Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-25T17:52:13Z aap_ is now known as aap 2021-03-25T17:52:25Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:52:31Z teej joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:52:43Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:53:35Z ms[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:53:53Z xlei joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:56:34Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-25T17:56:41Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-25T17:56:56Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:57:19Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:57:25Z tiwEllien quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:57:25Z terpri_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:57:25Z bitmapper quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:57:25Z jasom quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:57:25Z flazh quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:57:25Z _whitelogger quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:57:25Z X-Scale quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:57:25Z eschatologist quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:57:26Z |3b| quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:57:26Z froggey quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:57:26Z lottaquestions quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:57:26Z voidlily quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:57:26Z cpt_nemo quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:57:26Z dale quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:57:26Z joast quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:57:26Z cg505 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:57:26Z GreaseMonkey quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:57:26Z joga quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:57:26Z diamondbond quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:57:26Z ski quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:57:26Z spal quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:57:26Z fengshaun_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:57:26Z spxy_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:57:26Z White_Flame quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:57:26Z alanz quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:57:26Z Odin- quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:57:26Z FennecCode quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:57:26Z madand_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:57:26Z mjl quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:57:26Z shenghi quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:57:26Z micro quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:57:26Z astronavt___ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:57:26Z dyelar quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:57:26Z avicenna quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:57:26Z johs quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:57:26Z lukego quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:57:26Z Guest19918 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:57:26Z jerme_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:57:26Z housel quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:57:34Z cpt_nemo joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:57:35Z housel_ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:57:36Z spal joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:57:37Z ski joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:57:37Z micro joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:57:37Z greaser|q joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:57:38Z joga joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:57:38Z Josh_2: Afternoon 2021-03-25T17:57:39Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:57:39Z froggey joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:57:39Z cg505 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:57:43Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:57:44Z mjl joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:57:45Z alanz joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:57:46Z Guest19918 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:57:46Z flazh joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:57:47Z astronavt joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:57:49Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:57:50Z fengshaun joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:57:50Z terpri_ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:57:50Z voidlily joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:57:51Z lottaquestions joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:57:52Z tiwEllien joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:57:54Z avicenna joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:57:55Z johs joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:57:57Z shenghi joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:58:02Z jerme_ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:58:02Z lukego joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:58:05Z diamondbond joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:58:05Z Odin- joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:58:06Z spxy joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:58:08Z madand joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:58:09Z ark quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:58:09Z epony quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:58:09Z matryoshka quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:58:09Z devrtz quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:58:09Z luna_is_here quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:58:09Z Guest60210 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:58:09Z v3ga quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:58:09Z rgherdt quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:58:09Z l1x quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:58:09Z beach quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:58:09Z yottabyte quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:58:10Z grfn quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:58:10Z Grauwolf quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:58:10Z jonathan- quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:58:10Z mgsk quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:58:10Z splittist quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:58:10Z jackdaniel quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:58:10Z mpontillo quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:58:10Z p_l quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:58:10Z lieven quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:58:10Z phoe quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:58:10Z bytesighs quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:58:10Z drmeister quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:58:10Z CEnnis91 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:58:10Z knobo quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:58:10Z easye quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:58:10Z interruptinuse quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:58:10Z fe[nl]ix quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:58:10Z chrpape quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:58:10Z Yardanico quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:58:10Z pent quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:58:10Z winny quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:58:10Z jlpeters quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:58:10Z parisienne quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:58:10Z selwyn quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:58:10Z sebboh quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:58:17Z chrpape joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:58:18Z jasom joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:58:19Z _Ark_ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:58:21Z Yardanico joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:58:22Z yottabyte joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:58:23Z luna_is_here joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:58:23Z interruptinuse joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:58:23Z beach joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:58:24Z phoe joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:58:25Z mpontillo joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:58:26Z splittist joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:58:26Z grfn joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:58:27Z lieven joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:58:27Z jackdaniel joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:58:27Z devrtz joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:58:27Z bytesighs joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:58:28Z borodust- joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:58:28Z dyelar joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:58:29Z pent joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:58:29Z lieven quit (Changing host) 2021-03-25T17:58:29Z lieven joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:58:30Z matryoshka joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:58:31Z Grauwolf joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:58:33Z v3ga joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:58:33Z fe[nl]ix joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:58:34Z X-Scale joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:58:34Z sebboh joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:58:34Z Grauwolf quit (Changing host) 2021-03-25T17:58:34Z Grauwolf joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:58:35Z ChanServ has set mode +o fe[nl]ix 2021-03-25T17:58:36Z knobo joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:58:36Z mgsk joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:58:37Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:58:38Z jlpeters joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:58:39Z |3b|` joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:58:39Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:58:39Z dale joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:58:40Z selwyn joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:58:40Z parisienne joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:58:44Z p_l joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:58:45Z FennecCode joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:58:45Z l1x joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:58:46Z drmeister joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:58:57Z epony joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:59:00Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:59:09Z easye joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:59:21Z jonatack_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-25T17:59:36Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:59:41Z mseddon quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-03-25T17:59:41Z jonathan- joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:59:43Z nullman quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:59:43Z ramus quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:59:43Z nckx quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:59:44Z docl quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:59:44Z NULLean quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:59:44Z SlashLife quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:59:44Z loke quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:59:44Z cosimone quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:59:44Z villanella quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:59:44Z gaqwas quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:59:44Z quazimodo quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:59:44Z dvdmuckle quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:59:44Z tmf quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:59:44Z oxum quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:59:44Z vaporatorius quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:59:44Z mister_m quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:59:44Z contrapunctus quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:59:44Z Iolo quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:59:44Z sm2n quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:59:44Z keja_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:59:44Z copec quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:59:44Z fiddlerwoaroof quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:59:44Z Tordek quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:59:44Z paul0 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:59:44Z ft quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:59:44Z datajerk quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:59:44Z zagura quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:59:44Z matijja quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:59:44Z elflng quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:59:44Z hvxgr quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:59:44Z SAL9000 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:59:44Z gpiero quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:59:44Z kbtr_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:59:44Z Ankhers quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:59:44Z mathrick quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:59:44Z cyraxjoe quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:59:44Z hiredman quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:59:45Z stux|RC-only quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:59:45Z walex quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:59:45Z SumoSud0 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:59:45Z gabc quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:59:45Z guaqua quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:59:45Z Khisanth quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:59:45Z brass quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:59:45Z Kabriel_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:59:45Z malm quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T17:59:47Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-25T17:59:48Z winny joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:59:49Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:59:50Z walex joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:59:50Z hiredman joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:59:52Z gabc joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:59:52Z docl_ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:59:52Z tmf joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:59:52Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:59:52Z guaqua joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:59:52Z keja_ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:59:54Z matijja joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:59:55Z ft joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:59:56Z gpiero joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:59:56Z ramus joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:59:56Z malm joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:59:58Z Tordek_ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T17:59:59Z hvxgr joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:00:00Z nullman joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:00:00Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:00:00Z zagura joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:00:01Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:00:01Z kbtr joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:00:02Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:00:03Z nckx[2] joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:00:05Z NULLean joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:00:05Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:00:06Z mister_m joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:00:06Z elflng joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:00:07Z mathrick joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:00:09Z SlashLife joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:00:09Z paul0 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:00:12Z loke joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:00:13Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2021-03-25T18:00:13Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:00:14Z vaporatorius quit (Changing host) 2021-03-25T18:00:14Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:00:19Z sm2n joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:00:21Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:00:24Z oxum joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:00:24Z alandipert joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:00:27Z mseddon joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:00:29Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:00:42Z fiddlerwoaroof joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:00:46Z Ankhers joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:00:54Z cyraxjoe joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:00:57Z brass joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:00:58Z dvdmuckle joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:00:59Z SAL9000 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:01:35Z Kabriel joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:01:41Z kingcons quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-25T18:01:43Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-25T18:01:46Z nckx[2] is now known as nckx 2021-03-25T18:01:48Z SumoSud0 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:01:59Z copec joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:02:18Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:02:18Z kingcons joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:02:29Z Cthulhux` quit (Changing host) 2021-03-25T18:02:30Z Cthulhux` joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:02:31Z stux|RC-only joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:02:33Z datajerk joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:03:08Z CrazyEddy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-25T18:03:10Z Iolo joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:03:48Z paul0 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:03:48Z villanella quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:03:48Z v3ga quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:03:48Z borodust- quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:03:48Z lieven quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:03:48Z Guest19918 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:03:48Z teej quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:03:49Z jsatk quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:03:49Z patrixl quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:03:49Z PuercoPop quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:03:49Z waleee-cl quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:03:49Z HiRE quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:03:49Z acolarh quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:03:49Z krjt quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:03:49Z kim_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:03:49Z beaky quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:03:49Z griffinbyatt quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:03:49Z billstclair quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:03:49Z mgsk quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:03:49Z l1x quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:03:50Z yottabyte quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:03:50Z tiwEllien quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:03:50Z shenghi quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:03:50Z eschatologist quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:03:50Z alanz quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:03:50Z bitmapper quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:03:50Z cpt_nemo quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:03:50Z housel_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:03:50Z ms[m] quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:03:50Z snits quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:03:50Z Lord_Nightmare quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:03:50Z matthewcroughan quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:03:50Z surabax quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:03:50Z Oddity quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:03:50Z pranavats quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:03:50Z idxu quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:03:50Z gingerale- quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:03:50Z bjorkintosh quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:03:50Z dbotton quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:03:51Z Guest99088 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:03:51Z russell-- quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:03:51Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-25T18:04:01Z kim\ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:04:02Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:04:06Z paul0 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:04:06Z borodust joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:04:08Z Guest19918 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:04:08Z HiRE joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:04:11Z v3ga joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:04:13Z imuo quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-25T18:04:13Z PuercoPop joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:04:16Z acolarh joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:04:17Z lieven joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:04:17Z lieven quit (Changing host) 2021-03-25T18:04:17Z lieven joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:04:17Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:04:21Z waleee-cl joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:04:23Z jsatk joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:04:26Z billstclair joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:04:26Z griffinbyatt joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:04:29Z l1x joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:04:29Z mgsk joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:04:29Z yottabyte joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:04:29Z shenghi joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:04:29Z tiwEllien joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:04:29Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:04:29Z alanz joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:04:29Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:04:29Z housel_ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:04:29Z cpt_nemo joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:04:29Z ms[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:04:29Z snits joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:04:29Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:04:29Z matthewcroughan joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:04:29Z surabax joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:04:29Z Oddity joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:04:29Z pranavats joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:04:29Z idxu joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:04:29Z gingerale- joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:04:29Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:04:29Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:04:29Z Guest99088 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:04:29Z russell-- joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:04:30Z borodust is now known as Guest9052 2021-03-25T18:04:33Z imuo joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:04:49Z matthewcroughan quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2021-03-25T18:04:58Z beaky joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:04:58Z matthewcroughan joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:05:08Z conkker joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:05:09Z l1x quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:05:09Z mgsk quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:05:09Z yottabyte quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:05:09Z tiwEllien quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:05:09Z shenghi quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:05:09Z eschatologist quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:05:09Z alanz quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:05:09Z bitmapper quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:05:09Z housel_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:05:09Z cpt_nemo quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:05:09Z ms[m] quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:05:09Z snits quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:05:10Z Lord_Nightmare quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:05:10Z surabax quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:05:10Z Oddity quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:05:10Z pranavats quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:05:10Z idxu quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:05:10Z gingerale- quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:05:10Z bjorkintosh quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:05:10Z dbotton quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:05:10Z Guest99088 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:05:10Z russell-- quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:05:14Z krjt joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:05:21Z cpt_nemo joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:05:21Z russell-- joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:05:23Z warweasle quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 26.1) 2021-03-25T18:05:23Z snits joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:05:28Z gingerale- joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:05:29Z idxu joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:05:29Z teej joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:05:33Z surabax joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:05:35Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:05:35Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:05:35Z housel joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:05:36Z Oddity joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:05:42Z yottabyte joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:05:42Z shenghi joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:05:44Z russell-- is now known as Guest3489 2021-03-25T18:05:45Z Guest85002 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:05:45Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:05:48Z warweasle joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:05:59Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:06:24Z oxum quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:06:24Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:06:24Z aartaka quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:06:24Z shka_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:06:24Z frodef quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:06:24Z creat quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:06:24Z indathrone quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:06:24Z Alfr quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:06:25Z narimiran quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:06:25Z summerisle quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:06:25Z grobe0ba quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:06:25Z ffwacom quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:06:25Z asdflkj quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:06:25Z palter quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:06:25Z dnm quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:06:25Z lonjil quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:06:25Z b20n quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:06:25Z Balooga quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:06:25Z XachX quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:06:25Z semz quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:06:25Z gko quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:06:25Z frgo quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:06:25Z felideon quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:06:25Z rogersm quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:06:25Z nmg_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:06:25Z Blkt quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:06:25Z bonz060 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:06:25Z antoszka quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:06:25Z thonkpod quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:06:25Z swflint quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:06:25Z larme quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:06:36Z bonz060 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:06:37Z lonjil2 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:06:37Z swflint_away joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:06:38Z felideon_ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:06:39Z frodef joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:06:39Z grobe0ba_ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:06:39Z summerisle_ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:06:42Z Blkt joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:06:43Z gko joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:06:46Z dnm joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:06:48Z nmg joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:06:49Z XachX joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:06:50Z creat_ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:06:50Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:06:51Z thonkpod joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:06:51Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:06:52Z semz joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:06:52Z semz quit (Changing host) 2021-03-25T18:06:52Z semz joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:06:53Z indathrone joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:06:53Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:06:54Z palter joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:06:56Z felideon_ is now known as felideon 2021-03-25T18:06:57Z ffwacom joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:07:01Z b20n joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:07:01Z Balooga joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:07:01Z swflint_away is now known as swflint 2021-03-25T18:07:07Z grobe0ba_ is now known as grobe0ba 2021-03-25T18:07:12Z larme joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:07:18Z oxum joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:07:22Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-25T18:07:27Z asdflkj joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:07:29Z alanz joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:07:33Z antoszka joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:07:45Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:07:45Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:07:48Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:07:48Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:08:00Z l1x joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:08:10Z mgsk joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:08:55Z jmiven quit (Quit: bye) 2021-03-25T18:08:56Z ms[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:09:15Z jmiven joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:09:47Z xsperry joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:09:52Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:10:02Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:10:24Z Alfr quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-25T18:10:28Z luckless_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:10:28Z madage quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:10:28Z zooey quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:10:28Z hendursa1 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:10:28Z cantstanya quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:10:28Z corpix_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:10:28Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-25T18:10:29Z patrixl joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:10:43Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-25T18:10:50Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:11:18Z tiwEllien joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:11:21Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:12:32Z CrazyEddy quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-25T18:12:38Z feelings joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:13:00Z feelings is now known as CrazyEddy 2021-03-25T18:13:18Z corpix joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:13:26Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:13:43Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:13:58Z zooey joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:14:05Z CrazyEddy quit (Changing host) 2021-03-25T18:14:05Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:15:29Z cantstanya joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:17:56Z ccl-logbot joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:17:56Z 2021-03-25T18:17:56Z names: ccl-logbot cyberlard ggoes Posterdati raeda kevingal oldtopman random-nick ecraven Guest16651 perrier-jouet himmAllRight glamas xantoz adeht solrize conjunctive jello_pudding hhdave d4ryus pyc dunk edgar-rft femi tomaw orivej rixard scymtym gaze__ Shinmera nightfly akkad ozzloy_ mtd ineiros MetaYan samebchase Grue` Demosthenex andreyorst phadthai tgbugs gitgood Colleen nefercheprure gum xi- flip214 drewc jibanes theBlackDragon p9fn wooden rigidus` cantstanya 2021-03-25T18:17:56Z names: zooey hendursa1 corpix CrazyEddy amb007 tiwEllien patrixl shka_ bitmapper xsperry jmiven ms[m] mgsk l1x rogersm aartaka __jrjsmrtn__ antoszka alanz asdflkj oxum larme Balooga b20n ffwacom palter narimiran indathrone semz thonkpod frgo creat_ XachX nmg dnm gko Blkt summerisle_ grobe0ba frodef felideon swflint lonjil2 bonz060 Lord_Nightmare warweasle dbotton Guest85002 shenghi yottabyte Oddity housel bjorkintosh eschatologist surabax teej idxu gingerale- snits 2021-03-25T18:17:56Z names: Guest3489 cpt_nemo krjt conkker matthewcroughan beaky imuo griffinbyatt billstclair jsatk waleee-cl lieven acolarh PuercoPop v3ga HiRE Guest19918 Guest9052 paul0 villanella kim\ Iolo datajerk stux|RC-only kingcons copec SumoSud0 Kabriel SAL9000 nitrix grumble prxq_ mtd_ add^_ Kingsy_ aap mood_ Faed Mandus_ nopf_ pok jfb4 Patternmaster eMBee shinohai ChoHag jrm Cthulhux` deltab ferada Necktwi EPic thijso Guest75428 sloanr gigetoo mfiano sbryant Bike Firedancer 2021-03-25T18:17:56Z names: KeyboardWorrier gabiruh yang_ sxmx Guest83962 HDurer zigpaw1076 mgsk_ bmansurov cods Ziemas engblom cpape` buoy49 nydel plisp2 spacebat2 em madnificent zupss hdasch freshmaker666 sgithens zaquest jurov fouric phantomics isoraqathedh IPmonger daniel1302 samebchase- cage_ xristos ebrasca` kslt1 [df] ioa Juonu ck_ midre rotty lavaflow remexre sjl vsync eagleflo leo_song yonkunas minion jdz gensym wigust rme jmercouris travv0 cognemo vhost- Spawns_Carpeting 2021-03-25T18:17:56Z names: davros Sauvin cross troydm davisr rvirding stux|RC zymurgy jprajzne theruran_ nullheroes lowryder gendl varjag ilmu saturn2 sukaeto alfred188 stylewarning gabot mr_yogurt chewbranca physpi shrysr_ specbot AdmiralBumbleBee mgr_ thecoffemaker casual_friday markasoftware mrchampion Inoperable emacsomancer mgxm Lord_of_Life azrazalea tychoish herlocksholmes Noisytoot amk jgkamat Nikotiini johnjay drdo dim justinmcp pacon bkst moon-child louis771 xlei Josh_2 spal 2021-03-25T18:17:56Z names: ski micro greaser|q joga White_Flame froggey cg505 mjl flazh astronavt fengshaun terpri_ voidlily lottaquestions avicenna johs jerme_ lukego diamondbond Odin- spxy madand chrpape jasom _Ark_ Yardanico luna_is_here interruptinuse beach phoe mpontillo splittist grfn jackdaniel devrtz bytesighs dyelar pent matryoshka Grauwolf @fe[nl]ix X-Scale sebboh knobo aeth jlpeters |3b|` rgherdt dale selwyn parisienne p_l FennecCode drmeister epony CEnnis91 easye 2021-03-25T18:17:56Z names: _whitelogger jonathan- winny jonatack_ walex hiredman gabc docl_ tmf guaqua keja_ matijja ft gpiero ramus malm Tordek_ hvxgr nullman gaqwas zagura cosimone kbtr vaporatorius nckx NULLean quazimodo mister_m elflng mathrick SlashLife loke sm2n alandipert mseddon Khisanth fiddlerwoaroof Ankhers cyraxjoe brass dvdmuckle 2021-03-25T18:18:04Z ravndal joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:18:19Z dtman34 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:18:40Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:18:43Z jealousmonk joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:18:49Z save-lisp-or-die joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:18:51Z madage joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:18:54Z fitzsim joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:19:17Z dddddd joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:19:20Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:19:32Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:20:33Z louis771 quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2021-03-25T18:20:36Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:20:57Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:21:00Z Sauvin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-25T18:21:04Z edgar-rft quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-25T18:21:09Z sp41 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:21:12Z z0d joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:21:18Z jxy joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:21:18Z Xach_ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:21:30Z jackhill joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:21:32Z tessier joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:21:32Z tessier quit (Changing host) 2021-03-25T18:21:32Z tessier joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:21:39Z Papa joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:22:06Z rpg joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:23:24Z luckless_ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:23:24Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-25T18:24:41Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:24:52Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:25:21Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-25T18:27:06Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-25T18:27:39Z lowryder joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:27:56Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:29:01Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-25T18:29:33Z Ekho joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:30:06Z louis771 quit (Quit: My M1 has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-25T18:30:11Z ms[m] quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2021-03-25T18:30:21Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-25T18:31:39Z penguwin joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:32:20Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:32:20Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-25T18:32:29Z sp41 quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-03-25T18:32:51Z oxum_ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:32:58Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:33:32Z yang_ is now known as yang 2021-03-25T18:34:07Z joast joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:34:07Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-25T18:34:13Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:34:14Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-25T18:34:31Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:34:41Z oxum quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-03-25T18:36:46Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-25T18:38:16Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:38:17Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-25T18:38:28Z oxum joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:38:30Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:38:30Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-25T18:38:44Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:39:20Z alanz: I notice that some things have a name starting with "%". Is there a convention about this? I notice it for e.g. slot names 2021-03-25T18:39:30Z jmercouris: Yes there is 2021-03-25T18:39:39Z jmercouris: Use it for dangerous implementation serials 2021-03-25T18:39:43Z jmercouris: Details * 2021-03-25T18:39:55Z alanz: "dangerous" in what sense? 2021-03-25T18:40:05Z alanz: aka private? 2021-03-25T18:40:06Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-25T18:40:14Z shoshin joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:40:51Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:42:13Z oxum_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-25T18:42:14Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:43:48Z mfiano: Yes, private. It is bad practice to name slot names the same as their accessors for example 2021-03-25T18:44:04Z mfiano: Therefor slot names are typically prefixed with %, to prevent exporting implementation details 2021-03-25T18:44:26Z alanz: yes, that is the usage I have seen. And impossible to search for :) 2021-03-25T18:44:36Z alanz: thanks 2021-03-25T18:45:19Z mfiano: This isn't used by everyone, but since you are not exporting functions, but symbols, you should be careful about what you give users access to. You don't want them to bypass the intended protocols put in place 2021-03-25T18:45:46Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-25T18:46:18Z alanz: that makes sense 2021-03-25T18:46:30Z motersen joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:47:31Z sp41 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:47:41Z Josh_2: Sly doesnt like it when you put parens into doc strings 2021-03-25T18:47:59Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:47:59Z mfiano: It is fine with it. 2021-03-25T18:48:52Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:48:53Z arcontethegreat[ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:48:53Z Theora[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:48:59Z harlchen[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:48:59Z MrtnDk[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:49:13Z ThaEwat joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:50:19Z Josh_2: Apparently it isn't for me 2021-03-25T18:50:28Z mfiano: A open parenthesis at column 0 means something special in some editors 2021-03-25T18:50:35Z mfiano: If that's what you mean 2021-03-25T18:51:52Z Josh_2: Well I'm using emacs with sly 2021-03-25T18:51:56Z sp41 is now known as spalynx 2021-03-25T18:52:02Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:52:27Z kreyren joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:52:44Z mfiano: It's not anything to do with Sly if it is col 0 2021-03-25T18:53:11Z katco joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:53:12Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-25T18:53:19Z Josh_2: ha yeh it was because the ( was at column 0 2021-03-25T18:53:36Z Josh_2: Interesting. Thanks for that info 2021-03-25T18:53:58Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:54:13Z Josh_2: I'll have to remember that 2021-03-25T18:54:53Z tweet[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:54:53Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-25T18:57:24Z infra_red[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:57:52Z spalynx quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-25T18:57:53Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:58:19Z sp41 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:58:19Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-25T18:58:25Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:59:56Z ms[m]1 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T18:59:57Z susam joined #lisp 2021-03-25T19:00:31Z dmiles[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-25T19:00:47Z rpg joined #lisp 2021-03-25T19:02:12Z etimmons joined #lisp 2021-03-25T19:02:29Z rodentrabies joined #lisp 2021-03-25T19:04:07Z loke[m]1 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T19:05:17Z no-defun-allowed joined #lisp 2021-03-25T19:07:08Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-25T19:07:26Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-25T19:07:33Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T19:08:16Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-03-25T19:09:33Z CrazyEddy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-25T19:11:58Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-25T19:12:05Z davisr_ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T19:12:31Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T19:13:59Z Gnuxie[m] joined #lisp 2021-03-25T19:14:20Z davisr quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-25T19:15:34Z jonatack_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-25T19:16:04Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2021-03-25T19:16:53Z entel joined #lisp 2021-03-25T19:17:36Z adeht is now known as _death 2021-03-25T19:18:29Z CrazyEddy quit (Changing host) 2021-03-25T19:18:29Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2021-03-25T19:18:30Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-25T19:18:42Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T19:18:43Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-25T19:18:59Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T19:19:45Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T19:23:37Z |3b|` is now known as |3b| 2021-03-25T19:25:03Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-25T19:25:17Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T19:27:17Z Guest75428 is now known as mrSpec 2021-03-25T19:29:13Z EPic is now known as APic 2021-03-25T19:30:32Z Firedancer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-25T19:32:18Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-03-25T19:32:25Z Inline quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-25T19:34:02Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-25T19:34:29Z Krystof joined #lisp 2021-03-25T19:34:43Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T19:37:00Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T19:37:00Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-25T19:37:42Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T19:37:52Z prxq_ quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-03-25T19:37:54Z Lord_of_Life_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-25T19:38:03Z prxq joined #lisp 2021-03-25T19:39:11Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-25T19:41:18Z Firedancer_ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T19:42:29Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2021-03-25T19:43:03Z motersen quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 27.1) 2021-03-25T19:45:31Z phoe: I have a NIH-related question - has a "slicing" stream been done before? as in, a stream that only reveals a "slice" of some file 2021-03-25T19:45:38Z phoe: trivial example: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2358#2358 2021-03-25T19:45:53Z Firedancer_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-25T19:46:12Z phoe: I wonder if there is prior work that is in better shape than this five minute sketch 2021-03-25T19:47:26Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-25T19:49:51Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-25T19:51:46Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T19:54:24Z jonatack__ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T19:56:01Z akoana joined #lisp 2021-03-25T19:58:10Z jonatack_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-25T19:58:56Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2021-03-25T19:59:39Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-25T19:59:45Z edgar-rft: phoe: I usually use (with-open-file .... (file-position ) (read ...)) when I e.g. want to read sample data from a WAV file but skipping the file header. 2021-03-25T20:00:09Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-25T20:00:31Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-03-25T20:01:33Z scymtym: phoe: i suggest checking the return value of FILE-POSITION and signaling an error if the position could not be adjusted 2021-03-25T20:02:11Z warweasle quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 26.1) 2021-03-25T20:03:40Z scymtym: phoe: you could also implement STREAM-FILE-POSITION and maybe even (setf stream-file-position) 2021-03-25T20:04:17Z etimmons: phoe: I believe flexi-streams can do this. 2021-03-25T20:04:28Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-25T20:06:06Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-25T20:06:37Z tiwEllien quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-25T20:08:44Z cchristiansen joined #lisp 2021-03-25T20:09:19Z jonatack__ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-25T20:10:37Z phoe: scymtym: yes, thanks for the ideas 2021-03-25T20:10:39Z zooey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-25T20:10:47Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-03-25T20:11:03Z phoe: edgar-rft: yes, but this does not work if a library wants to read until EOF, but I only want to give it bytes from M to N 2021-03-25T20:11:06Z cchristiansen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-25T20:11:07Z phoe: etimmons: can it? lemme check 2021-03-25T20:12:15Z shoshin quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-03-25T20:12:16Z save-lisp-or-die quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-03-25T20:12:26Z CrazyEddy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-25T20:12:46Z save-lisp-or-die joined #lisp 2021-03-25T20:12:48Z etimmons: :POSITION and :BOUND https://edicl.github.io/flexi-streams/#make-flexi-stream 2021-03-25T20:12:48Z shoshin joined #lisp 2021-03-25T20:13:25Z zooey joined #lisp 2021-03-25T20:13:28Z phoe: ha! amazing, thanks 2021-03-25T20:13:41Z save-lisp-or-die quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-25T20:13:42Z shoshin quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-25T20:14:17Z phossil joined #lisp 2021-03-25T20:17:00Z phoe: etimmons: ...I get really funky behavior for flex 2021-03-25T20:17:18Z mfiano: I do too https://i.lisp.cl/Z6wP1D.png 2021-03-25T20:17:38Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2359#2359 2021-03-25T20:20:14Z phoe: am I screwing up somewhere, or is this a flexi-streams bugticket? 2021-03-25T20:21:51Z etimmons: Huh. I swear I'm using that feature somewhere with success. Let me take a look 2021-03-25T20:22:20Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2021-03-25T20:22:34Z mfiano: It seems bound is interpreted as (- bound position) and position is always 0... 2021-03-25T20:22:45Z corpix quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-25T20:22:55Z mfiano: That doesn't align with the docstring 2021-03-25T20:22:57Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2021-03-25T20:23:01Z corpix joined #lisp 2021-03-25T20:24:54Z emacsomancer quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-03-25T20:24:57Z save-lisp-or-die joined #lisp 2021-03-25T20:24:59Z shoshin joined #lisp 2021-03-25T20:25:24Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2021-03-25T20:25:58Z emacsomancer joined #lisp 2021-03-25T20:26:27Z v3ga quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-25T20:28:34Z v3ga joined #lisp 2021-03-25T20:29:56Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-25T20:30:00Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-25T20:30:02Z kpoeck joined #lisp 2021-03-25T20:30:09Z mfiano: etimmons: Curious what you find. phoe actually whipped up that example for me after I couldn't find a solution that worked. 2021-03-25T20:31:32Z imuo quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-25T20:31:50Z kpoeck: drmeister can you elaborate on "Lang gave me a solution that doesn't require a new garbage collector or switching to the large (slower) code model." 2021-03-25T20:31:51Z Colleen: kpoeck: Bike said at 2021.03.08 18:47:51: https://github.com/clasp-developers/clasp/commit/59b8b484b7b679c47f4916da754d4b5bdf02490c do you remember what was going on with this commit? the expression looks like it computes the same thing except for dropping dst. working around broken math functions? 2021-03-25T20:33:08Z etimmons: Ah right. My code only uses bound and lets position progress naturally from zero. 2021-03-25T20:33:21Z kpoeck: and that should have gone to #clasp :-) 2021-03-25T20:33:36Z etimmons: Wouldn't surprise me if there's a bug with position. I had to submit a patch to make bound respected by read-sequence 2021-03-25T20:33:40Z mfiano: etimmons: Ah yeah, it seems flexi-streams is bugged in that position is always 0. 2021-03-25T20:33:55Z mfiano: and bound is the relative offset from the supplied position 2021-03-25T20:34:00Z mfiano: That makes no sense to me :) 2021-03-25T20:34:11Z etimmons: Me either 2021-03-25T20:35:12Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-25T20:35:30Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2021-03-25T20:37:40Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-25T20:39:17Z phoe: https://github.com/edicl/flexi-streams/issues/44 2021-03-25T20:43:18Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-03-25T20:43:38Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-03-25T20:43:39Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-25T20:43:53Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-03-25T20:44:05Z CrazyEddy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-25T20:44:27Z save-lisp-or-die quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-03-25T20:44:27Z shoshin quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-03-25T20:46:47Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2021-03-25T20:49:56Z kpoeck52 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T20:50:06Z save-lisp-or-die joined #lisp 2021-03-25T20:50:07Z shoshin joined #lisp 2021-03-25T20:50:22Z kpoeck quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-25T20:51:32Z epony quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-25T20:52:30Z winny quit (Quit: restarting weechat relay for openssl upgrade) 2021-03-25T20:52:43Z winny joined #lisp 2021-03-25T20:55:36Z epony joined #lisp 2021-03-25T21:03:39Z sxmx quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-03-25T21:05:20Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-25T21:12:47Z Guest9052 is now known as borodust 2021-03-25T21:13:02Z borodust quit (Changing host) 2021-03-25T21:13:02Z borodust joined #lisp 2021-03-25T21:13:02Z summerisle_ quit (Quit: In my vision, I was on the veranda of a vast estate, a palazzo of some fantastic proportion.) 2021-03-25T21:13:27Z PuercoPop quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8) 2021-03-25T21:13:50Z summerisle joined #lisp 2021-03-25T21:14:26Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-25T21:14:52Z Guest16651 is now known as notmzv 2021-03-25T21:14:55Z notmzv is now known as notzmv 2021-03-25T21:18:27Z imuo joined #lisp 2021-03-25T21:20:52Z Shinmera: Sure. Been using it for years so I at least know that project is pretty stable 2021-03-25T21:20:59Z Shinmera: whoops, sorry about that. 2021-03-25T21:24:45Z VincentVega joined #lisp 2021-03-25T21:28:15Z save-lisp-or-die quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-03-25T21:28:15Z shoshin quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-03-25T21:34:29Z solrize left #lisp 2021-03-25T21:42:04Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-25T21:43:41Z Guest3489 is now known as russell-- 2021-03-25T21:44:31Z CrazyEddy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-25T21:45:02Z kpoeck52 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-25T21:45:34Z MetaYan: If I get an error like https://termbin.com/w2ab , is there some magic trick in SLIME to jump to the actual error? I mean, the error is not in the compiler, which is all that I find in the backtrace... 2021-03-25T21:47:29Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2021-03-25T21:48:39Z davisr_ is now known as davisr 2021-03-25T21:48:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: MetaYan: if you open the file in question, you can set your emacs point to the position specified 2021-03-25T21:49:53Z imuo quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-25T21:50:16Z docl_ is now known as docl 2021-03-25T21:50:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: Also, if you open that file and compile it (C-c C-k), you should be able to use M-n to jump to the form with a problem 2021-03-25T21:50:54Z MetaYan: fiddlerwoaroof: Not sure what you mean by that. I mean that I wouldnät need to manually open the file – that there might be some key combination in SLIME that does it for me... 2021-03-25T21:51:23Z MetaYan: *wouldn't* - wrong key layout... 2021-03-25T21:51:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm not aware of one 2021-03-25T21:51:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: I agree it'd be desireabl 2021-03-25T21:52:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: *desirable 2021-03-25T21:53:07Z MetaYan: This was just a recent example - it's happened many times, so hoping that some true SLIME magician reveals the trick. ;) 2021-03-25T21:54:41Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-25T22:03:08Z phoe: MetaYan: that's an ASDF issue, sadly ASDF does not refer to that compile-file error anywhere 2021-03-25T22:03:11Z phoe: even though in theory it could 2021-03-25T22:03:21Z phoe: e.g. via a slot in the COMPILE-FILE-ERROR condition 2021-03-25T22:07:44Z phoe: actually 2021-03-25T22:07:45Z phoe: hmmmm 2021-03-25T22:08:05Z phoe: I think of a way how it could be implemented in ASDF, via handler-bind around the actuall compile-file call 2021-03-25T22:08:36Z phoe: that collects the errors/warnings/conditions actually signaled by the compiler and then can e.g. present them to the user 2021-03-25T22:08:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: Or ASDF could have a restart that takes a function to execute on the failing component 2021-03-25T22:08:44Z phoe: seems to work from what I roughly explore 2021-03-25T22:08:51Z phoe: sure, that works too 2021-03-25T22:09:06Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-25T22:09:11Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-03-25T22:10:25Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-25T22:10:46Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-25T22:21:14Z louis771 quit (Quit: My M1 has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-25T22:26:40Z jmercouris: phoe: if you can improve asdf error reporting I will be eternally grateful 2021-03-25T22:26:50Z jmercouris: The messages are always so cryptic and hard to trace 2021-03-25T22:27:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: I wish there were some better documentation of how it works 2021-03-25T22:27:34Z perrier-jouet quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-03-25T22:28:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: Defining operations and new component types sounds really useful, but there aren't many examples and the documentation of the object model is hard to follow 2021-03-25T22:28:41Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-25T22:33:57Z aeth: oh, yeah, ASDF has a really hard to follow design... something that a few good macros probably could have hid 2021-03-25T22:36:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: The design isn't actually that bad: conceptually, it's just operations, components and some dependency tracking 2021-03-25T22:38:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: But the right way to add a new component type or operation isn't obvious 2021-03-25T22:38:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: And so I end up cargo-culting CFFI or whatever 2021-03-25T22:41:12Z jxy quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-25T22:47:01Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-25T22:49:31Z indathrone quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-25T22:51:50Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-25T22:57:17Z mrchampion quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-25T23:03:18Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-25T23:04:51Z ebrasca` quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2021-03-25T23:05:25Z ebrasca` joined #lisp 2021-03-25T23:06:31Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2021-03-25T23:06:41Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-25T23:07:37Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2021-03-25T23:10:22Z mrchampion joined #lisp 2021-03-25T23:11:35Z MetaYan: CCL/SLIME reports "Read error between positions 3313 and 3670 in /Users/Shared/cl/scm/incandescent/cubemap/cubemap.lisp.; Evaluation aborted on #." Would be really nice to be able to easily "visit" there. 2021-03-25T23:12:06Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-25T23:23:17Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-03-25T23:27:30Z torbo joined #lisp 2021-03-25T23:30:27Z yonkunas quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-25T23:34:59Z luis joined #lisp 2021-03-25T23:37:46Z igemnace joined #lisp 2021-03-25T23:49:01Z Bike: if the error has a position like that, slime could probably link to it in the compiler notes 2021-03-25T23:52:07Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-25T23:52:32Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-25T23:53:41Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-25T23:56:28Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-03-25T23:57:00Z phossil quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2021-03-25T23:57:26Z semz: ASDF 1 is pretty readable 2021-03-25T23:57:38Z semz: but unfortunately i'm not sure how much of the fundamental model changed between v1 and v3 2021-03-25T23:58:00Z hineios joined #lisp 2021-03-25T23:59:18Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T00:01:29Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-03-26T00:01:43Z mfiano: Hmm I suppose there is no way to get the length of a Gray stream...this isn't going to work 2021-03-26T00:02:44Z Bike: streams don't necessarily have lengths, right? 2021-03-26T00:02:57Z mfiano: Right :( 2021-03-26T00:04:03Z Bike: you don't need it for a slice thing, right? you just have to use LISTEN or whatever to see if there's more coming 2021-03-26T00:04:14Z mfiano: I developed a vfs for use in my game engine, and I need to pass a gray stream denoting a slice of that binary stream to third party libraries that try calling file-length. I thought I could just reimplement the toplevel third party functions, but i don't really have a way to get the length 2021-03-26T00:04:22Z cosimone quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-26T00:04:41Z aindilis joined #lisp 2021-03-26T00:04:52Z micro quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-26T00:04:53Z mfiano: A pile of libraries I want to pass a slice to expect a file stream 2021-03-26T00:05:03Z micro joined #lisp 2021-03-26T00:05:10Z mfiano: And of course file-length isn't even generic 2021-03-26T00:05:27Z Bike: it doesn't sound like your stream is in fact associated with a file anyway 2021-03-26T00:05:43Z mfiano: It is not. THese libraries expect one that is is the problem 2021-03-26T00:06:29Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-26T00:07:56Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-26T00:08:12Z froggey joined #lisp 2021-03-26T00:08:31Z mfiano: Seems the only thing I can do is reimplement all or part of a pile of libraries 2021-03-26T00:12:13Z notzmv- joined #lisp 2021-03-26T00:12:47Z notzmv- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-26T00:13:40Z sxmx joined #lisp 2021-03-26T00:13:59Z akoana left #lisp 2021-03-26T00:14:15Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-26T00:15:19Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-26T00:15:47Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-26T00:16:18Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-26T00:16:58Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-26T00:17:53Z Helmholtz joined #lisp 2021-03-26T00:17:56Z monkey__ joined #lisp 2021-03-26T00:19:03Z terpri_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-26T00:19:26Z terpri_ joined #lisp 2021-03-26T00:22:06Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T00:25:46Z Noisytoot quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-26T00:26:27Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-26T00:27:00Z Noisytoot joined #lisp 2021-03-26T00:30:36Z kevingal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-26T00:42:46Z phossil joined #lisp 2021-03-26T00:54:01Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-26T00:57:28Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-26T01:00:19Z ebrasca` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-26T01:00:40Z quazimodo quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-26T01:00:55Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2021-03-26T01:05:31Z wxie joined #lisp 2021-03-26T01:05:36Z long4mud joined #lisp 2021-03-26T01:05:41Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-03-26T01:17:06Z phossil quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T01:17:25Z phossil joined #lisp 2021-03-26T01:20:37Z imuo joined #lisp 2021-03-26T01:21:29Z thecoffemaker quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-26T01:22:39Z perrier-jouet joined #lisp 2021-03-26T01:24:00Z monkey__ quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-03-26T01:25:13Z sm2n_ joined #lisp 2021-03-26T01:25:36Z sm2n quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-26T01:27:22Z sloanr quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-26T01:27:23Z thecoffemaker joined #lisp 2021-03-26T01:30:27Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-26T01:31:34Z Helmholtz quit (Quit: Helmholtz) 2021-03-26T01:36:03Z Posterdati quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-26T01:37:15Z oxum_ joined #lisp 2021-03-26T01:37:47Z bmansurov_ joined #lisp 2021-03-26T01:37:49Z zigpaw10761 joined #lisp 2021-03-26T01:38:11Z bmansurov_ is now known as Guest11347 2021-03-26T01:38:38Z oxum quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T01:38:46Z hdasch_ joined #lisp 2021-03-26T01:39:47Z bmansurov quit (Quit: 👋) 2021-03-26T01:39:47Z zigpaw1076 quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2021-03-26T01:39:47Z jdz quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-26T01:39:47Z cognemo quit (Quit: cognemo) 2021-03-26T01:39:47Z hdasch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-26T01:39:47Z justinmcp quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2021-03-26T01:40:01Z justinmcp joined #lisp 2021-03-26T01:40:44Z zymurgy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-26T01:40:48Z jdz joined #lisp 2021-03-26T01:41:18Z Helmholtz joined #lisp 2021-03-26T01:41:49Z cognemo joined #lisp 2021-03-26T01:42:53Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-26T01:54:01Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-26T02:06:35Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1) 2021-03-26T02:06:52Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-03-26T02:07:27Z imuo quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-26T02:08:07Z zymurgy joined #lisp 2021-03-26T02:08:30Z Helmholtz quit (Quit: Helmholtz) 2021-03-26T02:11:33Z Alfr quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-26T02:13:22Z imuo joined #lisp 2021-03-26T02:22:26Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-26T02:23:38Z rpg joined #lisp 2021-03-26T02:24:11Z rpg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-26T02:35:42Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-03-26T02:36:59Z DateMasamune2000 joined #lisp 2021-03-26T02:38:08Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-26T02:59:46Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2021-03-26T03:00:23Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-03-26T03:00:48Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Quit: Пока, мир.) 2021-03-26T03:03:18Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2021-03-26T03:03:22Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp 2021-03-26T03:12:26Z phantomics quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-26T03:14:08Z semz joined #lisp 2021-03-26T03:14:08Z semz quit (Changing host) 2021-03-26T03:14:08Z semz joined #lisp 2021-03-26T03:14:42Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-26T03:14:55Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-26T03:21:00Z jasom: finally got my "chewing gum and duct tape" version of C-c C-c in emacs; see rendering of webpage change. Trying to decide if it's worth flushing out or not. 2021-03-26T03:23:00Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2021-03-26T03:23:38Z prxq_ joined #lisp 2021-03-26T03:25:59Z phantomics joined #lisp 2021-03-26T03:27:20Z prxq quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-26T03:30:00Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-26T03:31:02Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-26T03:31:09Z lottaquestions quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2021-03-26T03:31:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: jasom: cool, I did something like that with websockets once 2021-03-26T03:31:49Z lottaquestions joined #lisp 2021-03-26T03:31:50Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-03-26T03:31:54Z fiddlerwoaroof has too many simultaneous projects 2021-03-26T03:35:11Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T03:46:26Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T03:51:07Z wxie quit (Quit: wxie) 2021-03-26T03:53:22Z torbo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-26T03:57:43Z wxie joined #lisp 2021-03-26T03:59:04Z sm2n_ is now known as sm2n 2021-03-26T04:01:53Z Alfr is now known as Guest6801 2021-03-26T04:01:53Z Guest6801 quit (Killed (egan.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))) 2021-03-26T04:01:57Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-03-26T04:02:33Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2021-03-26T04:10:53Z DateMasamune2000 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-26T04:14:58Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T04:16:47Z DateMasamune2000 joined #lisp 2021-03-26T04:20:39Z DateMasamune2000 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-26T04:20:52Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-26T04:22:21Z imuo45 joined #lisp 2021-03-26T04:24:52Z hlisp joined #lisp 2021-03-26T04:25:42Z imuo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T04:32:55Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-26T04:33:02Z hlisp quit 2021-03-26T04:35:23Z imuo45 is now known as imuo 2021-03-26T04:35:55Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-26T04:36:39Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-26T04:37:08Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-26T04:37:41Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-26T04:40:59Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-26T04:43:08Z hdasch_ is now known as hdasch 2021-03-26T04:43:57Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T04:44:11Z madage joined #lisp 2021-03-26T04:45:52Z imuo51 joined #lisp 2021-03-26T04:47:22Z imuo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T04:56:08Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-26T04:56:12Z Iolo quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5+deb4 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-26T04:59:07Z Iolo joined #lisp 2021-03-26T05:11:34Z rixard_ joined #lisp 2021-03-26T05:11:34Z rixard quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-26T05:19:41Z jxy joined #lisp 2021-03-26T05:20:29Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-03-26T05:28:17Z pranavats joined #lisp 2021-03-26T05:32:23Z wxie joined #lisp 2021-03-26T05:36:49Z sauvin joined #lisp 2021-03-26T05:42:53Z phantomics_ joined #lisp 2021-03-26T05:43:58Z phantomics quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T05:49:22Z Stanley|00 joined #lisp 2021-03-26T05:49:56Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-26T05:52:41Z marusich joined #lisp 2021-03-26T05:55:50Z marusich quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-26T05:57:55Z marusich joined #lisp 2021-03-26T06:03:29Z phossil quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2021-03-26T06:23:32Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-26T06:23:59Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2021-03-26T06:27:09Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-03-26T06:35:30Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2021-03-26T06:46:59Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-26T06:52:10Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-26T06:58:31Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2021-03-26T07:02:15Z imuo51 quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-26T07:05:46Z l1x quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T07:06:02Z ffwacom quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-26T07:06:33Z ffwacom joined #lisp 2021-03-26T07:07:34Z l1x joined #lisp 2021-03-26T07:15:46Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-26T07:27:24Z aartaka_d quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-26T07:27:30Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-26T07:30:34Z surabax joined #lisp 2021-03-26T07:32:52Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-26T07:32:52Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2021-03-26T07:32:52Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-26T07:36:42Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-26T07:37:10Z pve joined #lisp 2021-03-26T07:56:54Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-26T07:57:21Z Guest19918 quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2021-03-26T07:57:37Z Patzy joined #lisp 2021-03-26T07:57:38Z Patzy quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-26T08:02:31Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-03-26T08:04:29Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-03-26T08:07:08Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-03-26T08:07:49Z hiroaki1 joined #lisp 2021-03-26T08:08:58Z prxq_ quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-03-26T08:09:10Z prxq joined #lisp 2021-03-26T08:09:57Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T08:11:12Z scymtym joined #lisp 2021-03-26T08:11:48Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-03-26T08:21:39Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2021-03-26T08:24:46Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T08:26:00Z louis771 quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2021-03-26T08:30:29Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-03-26T08:31:18Z notzmv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-26T08:31:35Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-26T08:34:56Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-26T08:36:04Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-26T08:44:45Z madage quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-26T08:45:59Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-03-26T08:49:34Z madage joined #lisp 2021-03-26T09:00:25Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-03-26T09:01:40Z tiwEllien joined #lisp 2021-03-26T09:03:23Z hhdave joined #lisp 2021-03-26T09:11:15Z Patzy joined #lisp 2021-03-26T09:13:19Z nefercheprure is now known as TMA 2021-03-26T09:17:29Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-26T09:19:33Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-26T09:21:11Z sernamar joined #lisp 2021-03-26T09:28:56Z dyeplexer joined #lisp 2021-03-26T09:29:23Z frost-lab quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-26T09:29:55Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2021-03-26T09:30:16Z dyeplexer: Aside from Logo/MSWLogo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MSWLogo), is there any other general purpose lisp dialect that makes brackets optional? 2021-03-26T09:31:17Z beach: dyeplexer: There is no widely agreed-upon definition of "Lisp dialect". That is why this channel is dedicated to Common Lisp, which is quite well defined. 2021-03-26T09:31:40Z no-defun-allowed: If Logo counts, does ML ("Meta Language")? 2021-03-26T09:31:53Z flip214: dyeplexer: I once wrote a lisp reader that inferred form borders by the indentation (like python), but I didn't like the layout 2021-03-26T09:33:17Z dyeplexer: As far as I remember (last time I touched it 10 years ago or something) logo simply counts the number of arguments required by the function and puts the successive tokens as the function arguments 2021-03-26T09:33:30Z dyeplexer: and brackets were only used to resolve precedence 2021-03-26T09:33:56Z dyeplexer: i.e. no sensitivity to whitespace 2021-03-26T09:33:57Z no-defun-allowed: Or what about Smalltalk-72, where objects would parse input themselves? 2021-03-26T09:33:57Z flip214: that sounds like PostScript or Forth 2021-03-26T09:34:33Z beach: dyeplexer: It would be very strange to call such a language a "Lisp dialect". One of the main features of Common Lisp is the fact that it is homoiconic, which you would then lose with such a language. 2021-03-26T09:34:35Z flip214: but Common Lisp (and other Lisps) have variadic argument lists, so there need to be some markers 2021-03-26T09:35:17Z dyeplexer: flip214: I imagine for variadic functions brackets would be mandatory 2021-03-26T09:35:34Z flip214: beach: sorry, I don't understand that. as long as there's a reversible transformation (eg. parenthesis <=> indentation), why would that not maintain homoiconicity? 2021-03-26T09:35:37Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-03-26T09:36:10Z beach: flip214: Granted. 2021-03-26T09:36:43Z beach: I took "optional" to mean that you can put some in if you like. 2021-03-26T09:38:01Z beach: dyeplexer: You may want to try to ask you question in ##lisp. That channel should have a good time trying to determine what languages are "Lisp dialects". 2021-03-26T09:38:11Z dyeplexer: I see, thanks 2021-03-26T09:39:00Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-03-26T09:50:05Z tessier quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-26T09:51:01Z tessier joined #lisp 2021-03-26T09:51:01Z tessier quit (Changing host) 2021-03-26T09:51:01Z tessier joined #lisp 2021-03-26T09:56:44Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-26T09:59:36Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-03-26T09:59:55Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-26T10:01:47Z terrorjack joined #lisp 2021-03-26T10:02:47Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-03-26T10:06:33Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-26T10:07:54Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-26T10:08:48Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-26T10:08:51Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-03-26T10:11:02Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-26T10:14:20Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-03-26T10:15:42Z Stanley|00 quit 2021-03-26T10:26:59Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-03-26T10:27:00Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-26T10:28:04Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-26T10:31:51Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-26T10:33:02Z tiwEllien quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-26T10:33:27Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-03-26T10:34:03Z tiwEllien joined #lisp 2021-03-26T10:34:38Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T10:35:21Z wxie joined #lisp 2021-03-26T10:43:33Z igemnace quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-26T10:45:52Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-26T10:47:07Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-26T10:47:38Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T10:47:43Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-03-26T10:49:32Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-26T10:50:52Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-03-26T10:51:11Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T10:51:38Z raeda_ joined #lisp 2021-03-26T10:53:41Z raeda quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-26T10:58:38Z sernamar quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-26T10:59:20Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-26T11:01:52Z luckless_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-26T11:02:26Z luckless_ joined #lisp 2021-03-26T11:03:56Z admich joined #lisp 2021-03-26T11:12:58Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-03-26T11:18:28Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-26T11:21:51Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-26T11:26:27Z Xach_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-26T11:26:55Z Xach joined #lisp 2021-03-26T11:31:46Z dyeplexer quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-26T11:32:10Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-03-26T11:35:18Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-26T11:35:31Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-26T11:37:48Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-26T11:38:39Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-26T11:39:09Z luckless_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T11:39:10Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-26T11:39:18Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-26T11:39:18Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-26T11:39:28Z luckless_ joined #lisp 2021-03-26T11:39:35Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-26T11:41:29Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-26T11:41:29Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-26T11:41:56Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-26T11:42:11Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-26T11:42:12Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-26T11:42:42Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-26T11:42:50Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-26T11:43:22Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-26T11:43:30Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-26T11:43:30Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-26T11:44:03Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-26T11:44:13Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-26T11:45:36Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2021-03-26T11:45:37Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-26T11:46:26Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-26T11:48:18Z Lord_of_Life quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-26T11:48:18Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-26T11:48:43Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-26T11:49:20Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2021-03-26T11:49:20Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-26T11:49:43Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-26T11:50:25Z Lord_of_Life quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-26T11:50:25Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-26T11:51:02Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-26T11:51:03Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-26T11:51:30Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-26T11:52:13Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2021-03-26T11:52:13Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-26T11:52:49Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-26T11:52:49Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-26T11:53:13Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-26T11:53:21Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-26T11:56:38Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T12:01:35Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-26T12:03:46Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T12:17:09Z zooey quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T12:17:36Z zooey joined #lisp 2021-03-26T12:18:46Z Blkt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T12:19:17Z Blkt joined #lisp 2021-03-26T12:22:38Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T12:23:26Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-03-26T12:33:32Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-26T12:51:06Z long4mud quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T12:52:42Z yonkunas joined #lisp 2021-03-26T12:56:17Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-26T12:57:04Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp 2021-03-26T13:01:37Z abbix joined #lisp 2021-03-26T13:01:43Z abbix: Hey 2021-03-26T13:02:02Z warweasle joined #lisp 2021-03-26T13:02:07Z beach: Hello abbix. 2021-03-26T13:02:59Z beach: abbix: Are you new here? I don't recognize your nick. 2021-03-26T13:03:08Z abbix: yes, I am 2021-03-26T13:03:16Z beach: Great! Welcome! 2021-03-26T13:03:19Z abbix: Thanks! 2021-03-26T13:03:21Z beach: What brings you to #lisp? 2021-03-26T13:03:45Z abbix: I've been learning/doing stuff with lisp 2021-03-26T13:03:57Z beach: Sounds like a good idea. 2021-03-26T13:19:38Z abbix quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-26T13:31:46Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-26T13:31:55Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-26T13:32:37Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-03-26T13:36:36Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-26T13:49:21Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-03-26T14:14:23Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-26T14:17:37Z scymtym joined #lisp 2021-03-26T14:21:06Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T14:21:34Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-26T14:29:31Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-26T14:31:02Z VincentVega joined #lisp 2021-03-26T14:31:40Z jonatack__ joined #lisp 2021-03-26T14:34:24Z VincentVega quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-26T14:34:30Z Xach: Is there a way to tell if a symbol names a special variable? 2021-03-26T14:34:43Z beach: Nope. 2021-03-26T14:34:54Z Xach: That's it, I'm finished with this stupid language forever! 2021-03-26T14:35:05Z beach: We need a revised standard. 2021-03-26T14:35:15Z beach: Shouldn't be too hard to accomplish. 2021-03-26T14:35:22Z Xach: (What I will actually do is look into implementation xref data instead.) 2021-03-26T14:35:36Z beach: Just gather a few newbies who have programmed in JS an Python and let them decide. 2021-03-26T14:35:46Z Shinmera: Colleen: tell Xach look up definitions 2021-03-26T14:35:47Z Colleen: Xach: About definitions https://shinmera.github.io/definitions#about_definitions 2021-03-26T14:36:17Z Xach: I'm trying to find stale package :export symbols, and I'd like to distinguish between (defvar *foo*) and truly stale *foo* 2021-03-26T14:36:36Z beach: Oh, that's very useful. 2021-03-26T14:36:56Z Shinmera: mh, the doc page is a bit out of date, but it has (definitions:definition-p '*foo* 'definitions:special-variable) 2021-03-26T14:37:31Z Xach: Shinmera: thanks 2021-03-26T14:43:40Z jrm quit (Quit: ciao) 2021-03-26T14:44:06Z jrm joined #lisp 2021-03-26T14:46:22Z _death: (and (>= (length name) 1) (char= (first-char name) (last-char name) #\*)) ;) 2021-03-26T14:49:57Z _death: or, for stale *foo*, maybe something like (defun specialp (symbol) (let ((mark (make-symbol "SHIBBO-LET"))) (handler-bind ((warning (lambda (c) (declare (ignore c)) (return-from specialp t))) (error (lambda (c) (declare (ignore c)) (return-from specialp nil)))) (eval `(let ((,symbol ',mark)) (declare (ignorable ,symbol)) (and (boundp ',symbol) (eq (symbol-value ',symbol) ',mark))))))) 2021-03-26T14:51:08Z _death: though I guess boundp is enough 2021-03-26T14:52:48Z Lycurgus: it's just an name convention isn't it? 2021-03-26T14:53:01Z Lycurgus: in which case ... . 2021-03-26T14:53:11Z Lycurgus: *a name convention 2021-03-26T14:54:02Z Lycurgus checks the log for context 2021-03-26T14:55:32Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-26T14:58:22Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-26T14:59:03Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-26T15:01:58Z jonatack__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T15:01:58Z _death: more tweaking https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2361#2361 2021-03-26T15:03:25Z _death: should likely return two values.. is special? is definite answer? 2021-03-26T15:03:41Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T15:03:42Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-03-26T15:04:54Z phantomics_ quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2021-03-26T15:05:14Z phantomics joined #lisp 2021-03-26T15:05:16Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-26T15:07:15Z _death: obviously redundant boundp check there.. 2021-03-26T15:09:10Z White_Flame: interesting, so this checks to see if a dynamic binding is created in the LET scope? 2021-03-26T15:09:58Z _death: yeah.. boundp ignores lexical bindings 2021-03-26T15:15:16Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T15:15:23Z galex-713_ joined #lisp 2021-03-26T15:19:10Z _death: the constantp can be pulled out of the eval and binding the symbol to NIL may violate a type declaration.. but it seems a good approximation at first sight 2021-03-26T15:19:34Z sjl joined #lisp 2021-03-26T15:20:07Z White_Flame: SBCL gives an undefined variable warning for non-special var usages; that's not required by the standard, right? 2021-03-26T15:20:09Z beach: Are you sure EVAL is needed here? 2021-03-26T15:20:30Z Bike: how would you do it without eval? 2021-03-26T15:20:59Z beach: Just thinking. Let me think some more before I say anything I might regret. 2021-03-26T15:21:03Z _death: beach: the issue is you need to bind (not necessarily dynamically) an arbitrary symbol 2021-03-26T15:21:11Z Bike: the actual test is seeing if a new binding of the variable is special or not 2021-03-26T15:21:12Z White_Flame: (high stakes brainstorming) 2021-03-26T15:21:13Z beach: Yes, I see. 2021-03-26T15:21:37Z White_Flame: progv then? 2021-03-26T15:21:47Z Bike: progv always makes a special binding 2021-03-26T15:21:56Z White_Flame: or does that always ... yeah 2021-03-26T15:22:36Z Bike: the special declaration is actually a lexical property, confusingly enough, so i don't think there's any way to test it without evaluating some code 2021-03-26T15:22:52Z Bike: (and of course this only works for global proclamations) 2021-03-26T15:23:13Z _death: I am saying "bind a symbol" to give a hint on the intention; of course a lexical binding has no concept of symbols 2021-03-26T15:23:54Z cosimone quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 28.0.50)) 2021-03-26T15:24:12Z White_Flame: of course, you could also give a code walker the var, outside the spec 2021-03-26T15:24:15Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-26T15:25:00Z White_Flame: s/the var/the symbol/ 2021-03-26T15:25:25Z Bike: if you have enough access to implementation extensions/internals that you can just ask if a variable is declared special in some environment, there's no need to do this 2021-03-26T15:26:58Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-26T15:31:04Z astronavt quit (Quit: ...) 2021-03-26T15:31:20Z Yardanico quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-26T15:31:27Z astronavt joined #lisp 2021-03-26T15:31:31Z ioa quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2021-03-26T15:32:46Z jmiven quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T15:33:26Z Yardanico joined #lisp 2021-03-26T15:34:11Z galex-713_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T15:35:02Z jmiven joined #lisp 2021-03-26T15:35:12Z zaquest quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-26T15:36:03Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-26T15:36:13Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-26T15:37:14Z _death: grepping my third-party lisp libraries directory, I see specialp functions in introspect-environment (Bike's library) and ace.core as well, though they don't take this approach.. 2021-03-26T15:37:38Z ioa joined #lisp 2021-03-26T15:39:51Z warweasle is now known as DankWeasle 2021-03-26T15:39:53Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-03-26T15:41:25Z DankWeasle is now known as warweasle 2021-03-26T15:43:37Z admich` joined #lisp 2021-03-26T15:43:49Z admich quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-26T15:54:02Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-26T15:54:52Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2021-03-26T15:58:57Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-26T15:59:21Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-26T16:13:16Z tiwEllien quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T16:14:21Z luckless_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T16:19:32Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-03-26T16:19:38Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T16:26:32Z rpg joined #lisp 2021-03-26T16:29:06Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T16:43:34Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2021-03-26T17:01:49Z MrtnDk[m]: I thought I found a bug in Emacs, but I realise I probably have it configured wrongly. When I save a buffer that doesn't end with an empty line, Emacs adds one ... 2021-03-26T17:02:16Z phoe: (setq mode-require-final-newline nil) ? 2021-03-26T17:03:05Z VincentVega joined #lisp 2021-03-26T17:03:27Z phoe: it seems to be a bit more complex, though, and a question to #emacs - but AFAIK almost all files on Unix either require or work well only with newlines at the end 2021-03-26T17:06:28Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-26T17:08:07Z aartaka_d quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-26T17:08:12Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-26T17:08:18Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T17:09:41Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T17:13:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: I wrote a special-p a while ago here, but I forget the details of how it worked 2021-03-26T17:14:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think I made it a macro rather than a normal function, though 2021-03-26T17:14:25Z phoe: doesn't cltl2 solve this? can't you call variable-information and check if there's a SPECIAL in there? 2021-03-26T17:14:42Z phoe: it must be a macro in order to use cltl2, yes 2021-03-26T17:14:48Z phoe: you don't get &environment otherwise 2021-03-26T17:14:53Z Bike: sure, if the cltl2 implementation doesn't suck 2021-03-26T17:14:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, as long as you have a TRIVIAL-CLTL2 package 2021-03-26T17:15:00Z phoe: oh! 2021-03-26T17:15:11Z phoe: ...are we talking about implementations that don't have it? if yes, which ones are these? 2021-03-26T17:17:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'd think trucler might have something like this too 2021-03-26T17:18:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://termbin.com/79cc 2021-03-26T17:18:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: Man, my formatting is horrible there 2021-03-26T17:19:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: That's what I get for pasting from the repl: https://termbin.com/bozl 2021-03-26T17:20:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: That doesn't work for locally-bound special variables, though 2021-03-26T17:22:15Z Bike: it should if the trucler native client actually works. 2021-03-26T17:22:32Z MrtnDk[m]: phoe Thanks, I was able to customize the variable to nil. I reckon if a file needs a newline, I just need to add one. I think thisbug feature has bothered me for years, I just didn't realise what it was, until now. In this case I needed the file to be without trailing newline. 2021-03-26T17:22:50Z phoe: yes, I see 2021-03-26T17:23:10Z beach: Trucler in combination with Clostrum will work. 2021-03-26T17:23:34Z phoe: I never ended up needing a file that does not end with a newline; I assume you have a different use case 2021-03-26T17:24:55Z MrtnDk[m]: I don't know if #Emacs is bridged, otherwise I might report it as a bug, but I guess I just disagree on some of the defaults ... 2021-03-26T17:25:00Z phoe: it isn't! 2021-03-26T17:25:04Z phoe: #lisp is a lair of Common Lisp programmers 2021-03-26T17:25:09Z phoe: #emacs is a lair of Emacs Lisp programmers 2021-03-26T17:25:30Z phoe: these are distinct languages 2021-03-26T17:25:32Z phoe: so you might want to jump there for emacs-specific discussion 2021-03-26T17:27:17Z MrtnDk[m]: I know ... Sorry for asking here. Just that I've been working a lot with CL lately. 2021-03-26T17:27:33Z phoe: no problem 2021-03-26T17:27:56Z phoe: a lot of #lisp population uses emacs, so there's some overlap 2021-03-26T17:28:42Z kpoeck joined #lisp 2021-03-26T17:30:26Z edgar-rft: In Lisp a comment starts with a semicolon and ends with a newline. Some old Lisps had the problem that if the last line of a file is a comment and and doesn't end with a newline then the contents of the following file was considered as a comment, too, until the first newline. That's the reason for the "automatic newline" feature of Emacs. 2021-03-26T17:30:26Z edgar-rft: The only Lisp with that problem I know in 2021 is the Nyquist interpreter in the Audacity audio editor wich is based on XLISP2 from somewhere in the 1980s. 2021-03-26T17:30:46Z scymtym quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-26T17:34:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: beach/Bike: yeah, I realized shortly after posting that this only worked for bindings in the null environment 2021-03-26T17:36:39Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-03-26T17:39:17Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-03-26T17:40:03Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-26T17:40:04Z d4ryus quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-03-26T17:41:30Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-26T17:41:54Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2021-03-26T17:43:01Z hhdave quit (Quit: hhdave) 2021-03-26T17:44:41Z sjl quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3-dev) 2021-03-26T17:45:20Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-26T17:47:53Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-03-26T17:48:08Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-03-26T17:48:53Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-03-26T17:49:35Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-03-26T17:54:58Z wsinatra quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-26T17:55:53Z VincentVega99 joined #lisp 2021-03-26T17:57:26Z luckless_ joined #lisp 2021-03-26T18:00:18Z louis771 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T18:02:13Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-26T18:03:54Z hhdave joined #lisp 2021-03-26T18:04:53Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-26T18:08:16Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T18:09:41Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-26T18:13:19Z VincentVega99: Anyone used hu.dwim.sdl before? After quickloading it, the bindings are generated, but nothing is exported (`hu.dwim.sdl:` will get me completions just for 3 things, none of which are actual bindings), do I misunderstand how to use it? 2021-03-26T18:15:17Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-03-26T18:17:09Z louis771 quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-26T18:19:42Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-26T18:20:49Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-03-26T18:21:13Z sauvin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-26T18:22:26Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2021-03-26T18:33:15Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-26T18:34:26Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T18:34:56Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-26T18:36:26Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-26T18:39:27Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-03-26T18:40:41Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-26T18:41:58Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T18:43:27Z rpg joined #lisp 2021-03-26T18:53:10Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-26T18:55:07Z terpri_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-26T18:55:27Z terpri_ joined #lisp 2021-03-26T19:12:53Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-26T19:14:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: VincentVega99: Are you looking at this package? hu.dwim.sdl.ffi 2021-03-26T19:14:25Z jcowan joined #lisp 2021-03-26T19:15:00Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-26T19:19:16Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-03-26T19:20:01Z jcowan: Read-delimited list is specified to skip whitespace and comments before calling read, but it is unclear how to know what a comment is, as there is no such syntax type. Does that mean that the syntax of comments is not extensible. 2021-03-26T19:24:16Z Bike: jcowan: read-delimited-list calls read, which calls reader macros. if a character has a macro function that reads some characters and then returns no values it's defining a comment syntax 2021-03-26T19:25:24Z Bike: https://github.com/s-expressionists/Eclector/blob/master/code/reader/macro-functions.lisp#L39-L58 e.g. 2021-03-26T19:26:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: (set-macro-character #\~ (get-macro-character #\;) nil) works as I expected with read-delimited-list 2021-03-26T19:26:40Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2021-03-26T19:29:40Z Bike: https://github.com/s-expressionists/Eclector/blob/master/code/reader/read-common.lisp#L66-L101 here is the function eclector uses in read-delimited-list to read something that might be a comment 2021-03-26T19:30:03Z waleee-cl joined #lisp 2021-03-26T19:30:18Z Bike: as you can see, what it does is determine if the next character is a macro, and if it is, calls it, and if it returns no values, it's a comment 2021-03-26T19:30:20Z jcowan: Consider a case in which { invokes read-delimited-list and passes } to it. Then { #|foo|# } would fail, except that read-delimited list knows that #|...|# is a comment and ignores it. This knowledge has to be hardwired. 2021-03-26T19:30:29Z Bike: it is not 2021-03-26T19:30:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: That's interesting, it means that there's at least one place where (values) isn't equivalent to returning nil 2021-03-26T19:30:57Z Bike: the #| reader macro returns no values, which the higher level reader knows it was a comment 2021-03-26T19:31:04Z Bike: knows means* 2021-03-26T19:31:12Z Bike: it doesn't know about #| specifically 2021-03-26T19:32:44Z albusp_ joined #lisp 2021-03-26T19:33:07Z Bike: this is described in paragraph three of step 4 of the reader algorithm in CLHS 2.2 2021-03-26T19:33:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs 2.2 2021-03-26T19:33:34Z specbot: Reader Algorithm: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_b.htm 2021-03-26T19:33:49Z Bike: or the fourth paragraph, i guess 2021-03-26T19:34:32Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-26T19:36:13Z albusp joined #lisp 2021-03-26T19:36:17Z Bike: comments couldn't really be a syntax type, since obviously in ";foo" the whole thing is a comment, including the F O characters that are alphabetic 2021-03-26T19:36:26Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-26T19:36:45Z VincentVega99: fiddlerwoaroof: yeah, hu.dwim.sdl.ffi is exporting nothing it seems. c2ffi-spec has these sort of lines, though: `(COMMON-LISP:EXPORT 'COMMON-LISP:NIL '#:HU.DWIM.SDL.FFI)` 2021-03-26T19:37:07Z Bike: i guess you could have "start a comment" and "start a block comment" as syntax types, but reader macros handle it 2021-03-26T19:37:47Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2021-03-26T19:38:40Z jonatack quit (Excess Flood) 2021-03-26T19:39:09Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-26T19:39:57Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-26T19:39:58Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2021-03-26T19:40:04Z Bike: fiddlerwoaroof: i think it's one of only three places where the number of values actually matters, the other two being multiple-value-call and the :no-error clause of handler-case 2021-03-26T19:40:13Z Bike: fundamentally they all basically go through multiple-value-call, though 2021-03-26T19:40:39Z albusp quit (Quit: albusp) 2021-03-26T19:40:40Z Inline quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-26T19:40:59Z Bike: i guess you could count multiple-value-list as well 2021-03-26T19:41:07Z albusp joined #lisp 2021-03-26T19:41:28Z warweasle quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 26.1) 2021-03-26T19:44:51Z rixard_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-26T19:46:04Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-03-26T19:52:26Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T19:53:22Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-26T19:53:30Z rixard joined #lisp 2021-03-26T19:53:58Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-26T19:55:23Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-03-26T19:55:34Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-26T19:56:37Z albusp_ quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-03-26T20:04:03Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-26T20:04:18Z louis771 quit (Quit: My M1 has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-26T20:06:14Z tyson2 joined #lisp 2021-03-26T20:10:20Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-03-26T20:11:26Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2021-03-26T20:20:35Z davisr_ joined #lisp 2021-03-26T20:22:30Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2021-03-26T20:22:41Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T20:23:01Z davisr quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-26T20:25:42Z kpoeck quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T20:30:55Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-26T20:31:46Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T20:31:50Z galex-713_ joined #lisp 2021-03-26T20:32:44Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-26T20:38:46Z galex-713_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-26T20:43:55Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-26T20:45:33Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-03-26T20:48:06Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-26T20:48:18Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-26T20:57:56Z admich` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-03-26T20:58:26Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T21:13:23Z VincentVega99 quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-26T21:13:35Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-26T21:14:09Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-26T21:21:40Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-26T21:22:06Z tyson2 left #lisp 2021-03-26T21:22:46Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2021-03-26T21:23:44Z galex-713 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-26T21:23:52Z Alfr quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-26T21:25:02Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-26T21:33:05Z corpix quit (Quit: corpix) 2021-03-26T21:33:16Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T21:38:15Z kreyren quit (Changing host) 2021-03-26T21:38:15Z kreyren joined #lisp 2021-03-26T21:38:15Z kreyren quit (Changing host) 2021-03-26T21:38:15Z kreyren joined #lisp 2021-03-26T21:41:20Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-26T21:41:58Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T21:43:22Z tiwEllien joined #lisp 2021-03-26T21:45:06Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T21:46:20Z akoana joined #lisp 2021-03-26T21:47:28Z troydm quit (Quit: What is Hope? That all of your wishes and all of your dreams come true? To turn back time because things were not supposed to happen like that (C) Rau Le Creuset) 2021-03-26T21:47:46Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T21:47:58Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-26T21:49:20Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-26T21:51:53Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-03-26T21:52:11Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T21:52:38Z johnjay quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3) 2021-03-26T21:53:04Z johnjay joined #lisp 2021-03-26T21:53:38Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T21:55:55Z troydm joined #lisp 2021-03-26T21:57:40Z tiwEllien quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-26T22:06:46Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-26T22:07:19Z jonatack quit (Quit: jonatack) 2021-03-26T22:08:38Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-03-26T22:08:46Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-26T22:10:36Z davisr__ joined #lisp 2021-03-26T22:10:49Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-26T22:12:46Z davisr_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T22:13:13Z davisr__ is now known as davisr 2021-03-26T22:13:47Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-26T22:17:56Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-26T22:19:31Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-26T22:20:00Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-26T22:21:31Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-26T22:28:25Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-26T22:40:58Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T22:41:18Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T22:43:38Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-26T23:11:59Z rpg joined #lisp 2021-03-26T23:15:16Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-03-26T23:16:33Z pve quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-26T23:17:38Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T23:19:16Z kevingal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T23:19:47Z VincentVega joined #lisp 2021-03-26T23:22:02Z VincentVega quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-26T23:25:56Z rpg: Slightly OT: did Travis just pull the plug on providing CI for open source software on GitHub? 2021-03-26T23:26:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think they announced something like this a while ago 2021-03-26T23:30:17Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-03-26T23:34:11Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-03-26T23:35:07Z rpg: Yes, I seem to have gotten a small pool of credits that I "spent" without realizing it. It's hard to see how I could come up with more for lisp libraries. I suppose as a community this will make common-lisp.net more appealing. And also we will have to kick in some resources to help them scale up their CI. 2021-03-26T23:35:18Z fe[nl]ix: rpg: Travis replaced the OSS tier with CPU credits in the "Free" tier, and that will keep going for a while 2021-03-26T23:35:49Z fe[nl]ix: rpg: I doubt it will make common-lisp.net any more appealing 2021-03-26T23:35:51Z rpg: fe[nl]ix: Right, but AFAICT the CPU credits don't ever refresh. So once they are gone, that's it. 2021-03-26T23:36:41Z rpg: They have a ridiculous system of credits that is inflated by an order of magnitude (the "unit" is really 10 credits) 2021-03-26T23:37:15Z fe[nl]ix: readily available integration with Github and reliability are more important (in practice) 2021-03-26T23:37:23Z rpg: I have no idea how one refreshes the supply for $$$, either. 2021-03-26T23:37:39Z rpg: fe[nl]ix: Well, readily available integration with GitLab isn't really so bad. 2021-03-26T23:38:00Z rpg: Also, it seems like they have not set up the method for buying more credits! 2021-03-26T23:38:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've mostly switched to Github actions and/or circleci 2021-03-26T23:38:32Z fe[nl]ix: I think they want you to switch plans 2021-03-26T23:41:32Z rpg: I think I want to switch plans to somebody who will explain things to me in very simple words! 2021-03-26T23:41:55Z rpg: Now I am going to have a drink and not think about how I will do regression testing on my repositories! 2021-03-26T23:42:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: I stopped using Travis a long time ago because of how difficult it was to debug broken travis builds 2021-03-26T23:42:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: When I realized that CircleCI gives you a way to SSH into a failing build step and poke around, I was sold 2021-03-26T23:43:35Z jrm quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-26T23:48:05Z dra joined #lisp 2021-03-26T23:50:04Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-26T23:50:30Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-26T23:52:27Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-26T23:53:54Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-26T23:54:01Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-26T23:54:58Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-26T23:55:36Z yonkunas quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-27T00:06:45Z dra_ joined #lisp 2021-03-27T00:09:16Z dra quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-27T00:14:56Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-27T00:15:18Z curtosis joined #lisp 2021-03-27T00:16:27Z dra_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-27T00:21:03Z louis771 quit (Quit: My M1 has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-27T00:26:16Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-27T00:28:42Z ziron joined #lisp 2021-03-27T00:30:14Z ziron: Anyone got a really small macro that shows something that can only be written as a macro (is there even is such a thing) ? 2021-03-27T00:31:18Z Bike: (defmacro and2 (form1 form2) `(if ,form1 ,form2 nil)) i guess? 2021-03-27T00:31:51Z Bike: unlike the function (defun and2 (val1 val2) (if val1 val2 nil)), the second argument won't be evaluated if the first is false 2021-03-27T00:32:21Z ziron: Just what I needed, thanks 2021-03-27T00:37:28Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-03-27T00:40:46Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-27T00:52:32Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2021-03-27T00:55:34Z curtosis is now known as curtosis[away] 2021-03-27T00:56:03Z curtosis[away] quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-27T00:58:12Z White_Flame: ziron: in that instance, you could warp the parameters into function objects to have them optionally called 2021-03-27T00:58:29Z White_Flame: (and2 (lambda () val1) (lambda () val2)) 2021-03-27T00:58:42Z White_Flame: and get it to operate similarly without a macro, having the function decide which one to call 2021-03-27T00:59:22Z White_Flame: so the feature set tends to be far easier to use with a macro, but this overall mechanism isn't unattainable with just functions 2021-03-27T01:00:16Z White_Flame: something like (with-open-file (stream "file.txt") ...) creates LET bindings around the body which the body can use lexically, which is probably a step beyond 2021-03-27T01:01:07Z White_Flame: although (with-open-file "file.txt" (list ..options) (lambda (stream) ...)) is conceptually still equivalent 2021-03-27T01:01:23Z White_Flame: *with-open-file2 or something 2021-03-27T01:02:00Z White_Flame: but the simplicity of being able to express exactly what you want, instead of having to construct little parameter APIs and function objects for everything as a burden to the _user_ of the utility, makes macros great for a lot of things 2021-03-27T01:02:29Z White_Flame: basically eliminating boilerplate, and allowing code transformation, injection, and true scoping at will 2021-03-27T01:03:22Z White_Flame: and obviously the function object versions will have higher performance overheads for very simple things than just generating a single code body via macro 2021-03-27T01:04:20Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2021-03-27T01:05:10Z ziron: White_Flame: thanks, good stuff! 2021-03-27T01:22:01Z Alfr quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-27T01:22:10Z ziron quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-27T01:25:02Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-27T01:30:16Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-27T01:30:57Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-27T01:36:46Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-27T01:55:49Z akoana left #lisp 2021-03-27T01:57:47Z elusive joined #lisp 2021-03-27T02:01:09Z luckless_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-27T02:02:06Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-27T02:04:35Z luckless_ joined #lisp 2021-03-27T02:05:09Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-27T02:06:30Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-27T02:08:25Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-27T02:09:58Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-27T02:10:10Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-03-27T02:15:13Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-27T02:17:25Z raeda_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-27T02:17:34Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-27T02:17:37Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-27T02:21:19Z imuo joined #lisp 2021-03-27T02:23:40Z galex-713 quit (Excess Flood) 2021-03-27T02:24:06Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-27T02:27:31Z asarch joined #lisp 2021-03-27T02:29:18Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-27T02:29:33Z Oddity- joined #lisp 2021-03-27T02:33:17Z Oddity quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-27T02:35:28Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-27T02:56:14Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-03-27T02:59:34Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-27T03:00:58Z long4mud joined #lisp 2021-03-27T03:01:18Z galex-713 quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2021-03-27T03:04:50Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-27T03:11:29Z elusive quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-27T03:13:17Z semz joined #lisp 2021-03-27T03:13:17Z semz quit (Changing host) 2021-03-27T03:13:17Z semz joined #lisp 2021-03-27T03:13:23Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-27T03:14:14Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-27T03:14:14Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2021-03-27T03:14:14Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-27T03:15:12Z epony quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-27T03:19:26Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-27T03:22:41Z prxq_ joined #lisp 2021-03-27T03:26:11Z prxq quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-27T03:29:17Z aeth quit (Quit: Reconnecting) 2021-03-27T03:29:32Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-03-27T03:31:35Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-27T03:37:15Z NULLean quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-03-27T03:41:25Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-03-27T03:42:30Z Helmholtz joined #lisp 2021-03-27T03:55:40Z sxmx quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-03-27T04:02:20Z Alfr is now known as Guest58507 2021-03-27T04:02:24Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-03-27T04:02:45Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2021-03-27T04:04:55Z Guest58507 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-03-27T04:11:06Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-27T04:15:45Z sxmx joined #lisp 2021-03-27T04:32:24Z Helmholtz quit (Quit: Helmholtz) 2021-03-27T04:33:49Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-27T04:41:20Z asarch joined #lisp 2021-03-27T04:44:27Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-03-27T04:47:07Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-03-27T05:28:22Z sauvin joined #lisp 2021-03-27T05:38:48Z kini joined #lisp 2021-03-27T05:45:05Z oxum joined #lisp 2021-03-27T05:45:41Z oxum_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-27T05:58:17Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-03-27T06:04:30Z oxum quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-27T06:04:35Z oxum_ joined #lisp 2021-03-27T06:06:12Z MrtnDk[m]: Goodmorning beach. 2021-03-27T06:09:12Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-27T06:18:23Z mrchampion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-27T06:42:18Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-27T06:53:46Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-27T06:55:08Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-27T07:02:36Z oxum_ quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2021-03-27T07:02:42Z imuo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-27T07:04:10Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2021-03-27T07:09:46Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-27T07:14:27Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-03-27T07:18:58Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-27T07:23:48Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-27T07:27:29Z waleee-cl joined #lisp 2021-03-27T07:29:46Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-27T07:29:46Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-27T07:48:32Z xsperry quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-27T07:49:10Z cognemo quit (Quit: cognemo) 2021-03-27T07:51:26Z cognemo joined #lisp 2021-03-27T08:07:05Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-03-27T08:09:57Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-27T08:13:10Z pve joined #lisp 2021-03-27T08:26:27Z datajerk quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-27T08:26:46Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-03-27T08:26:58Z scymtym joined #lisp 2021-03-27T08:28:46Z epony joined #lisp 2021-03-27T08:30:28Z datajerk joined #lisp 2021-03-27T08:34:34Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-27T08:36:30Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-03-27T08:37:59Z narimiran quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-27T08:40:27Z VincentVega joined #lisp 2021-03-27T08:43:46Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-27T08:44:04Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-27T08:44:04Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-27T08:44:35Z gpiero quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-27T08:49:46Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-27T08:50:11Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-27T08:57:16Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-27T09:00:56Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-27T09:07:16Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-27T09:07:50Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-03-27T09:08:21Z gpiero joined #lisp 2021-03-27T09:08:46Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-27T09:09:22Z lowryder joined #lisp 2021-03-27T09:11:00Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-27T09:21:59Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-27T09:24:52Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2021-03-27T09:27:39Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-03-27T09:44:06Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-27T09:47:38Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-27T09:48:16Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-27T09:48:24Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-27T09:48:40Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-27T09:49:45Z surabax joined #lisp 2021-03-27T09:55:34Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-27T10:00:06Z vegansbane6963 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-03-27T10:01:22Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-27T10:05:07Z midre quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2021-03-27T10:07:39Z midre joined #lisp 2021-03-27T10:09:23Z supercoven joined #lisp 2021-03-27T10:12:16Z midre quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-27T10:13:05Z midre joined #lisp 2021-03-27T10:15:47Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-03-27T10:16:18Z toorevitimirp quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-27T10:25:06Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-27T10:33:38Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-03-27T10:36:49Z phoe: morning 2021-03-27T10:36:57Z Inline: sup 2021-03-27T10:37:13Z phoe: my dayjob overtime period is gone 2021-03-27T10:37:14Z beach: Hello phoe. Hello Inline. 2021-03-27T10:37:20Z phoe: I can breathe freely again 2021-03-27T10:37:26Z beach: phoe: Congratulations! 2021-03-27T10:37:39Z phoe: this means that I'll get some time to rest 2021-03-27T10:37:56Z beach: Yes. Can you take some time off and go somewhere? 2021-03-27T10:38:01Z Inline: ok 2021-03-27T10:38:04Z phoe: yessss 2021-03-27T10:38:06Z Inline: get well soon 2021-03-27T10:38:12Z phoe: ...and then jump back to work on bookstuff 2021-03-27T10:38:42Z phoe: which I don't mind in the slightest because this time it is lisp! 2021-03-27T10:40:44Z alanz: I like keeping work and hobby stuff separate. So *i* can control exactly how much time I put into the hobby stuff. 2021-03-27T10:41:01Z alanz: And what I do, come to think of it 2021-03-27T10:41:20Z phoe: I found out that becomes a bit troublesome when you want to do something work-ish for your hobby zone 2021-03-27T10:41:28Z phoe: troublesome, but still possible 2021-03-27T10:42:20Z alanz: yes. Or your work stuff uses things you did for hobby time. Which I sit with. Awkward but manageable 2021-03-27T10:46:17Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-27T10:48:20Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-27T10:58:14Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-27T11:02:35Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-27T11:09:07Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-27T11:19:03Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-27T11:23:19Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-27T11:29:35Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-27T11:32:23Z xsperry joined #lisp 2021-03-27T11:45:44Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-27T11:46:36Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp 2021-03-27T11:54:07Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-27T11:54:35Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-03-27T12:00:18Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp 2021-03-27T12:14:34Z sp41 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-27T12:23:35Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-03-27T12:45:58Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-27T12:46:15Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-27T12:48:02Z renzhi joined #lisp 2021-03-27T12:50:32Z prxq_ quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-03-27T12:50:33Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-03-27T13:04:59Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-27T13:10:14Z VincentVega joined #lisp 2021-03-27T13:14:48Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-27T13:21:16Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2021-03-27T13:21:45Z IPmonger quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-27T13:23:01Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2021-03-27T13:31:35Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-27T13:33:54Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-03-27T13:37:15Z nullx002 joined #lisp 2021-03-27T13:43:05Z prov joined #lisp 2021-03-27T13:44:30Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-27T13:52:48Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-27T13:56:44Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-27T14:10:46Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-27T14:18:59Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-27T14:21:18Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-27T14:23:12Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-03-27T14:23:56Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-27T14:26:19Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-27T14:29:10Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-27T14:32:07Z mrchampion joined #lisp 2021-03-27T14:38:06Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-27T14:38:37Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-27T14:43:00Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-27T14:44:18Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-27T14:48:21Z jcowan: Some time back my private work (on FIGlet) made me the only person who could efficiently do what $EMPLOYER wanted, because I had both knowledge and experience with bitmap fonts. 2021-03-27T14:52:05Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-03-27T14:57:53Z rpg joined #lisp 2021-03-27T15:08:24Z l1x quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-27T15:08:37Z aindilis joined #lisp 2021-03-27T15:09:30Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2021-03-27T15:09:56Z Josh_2: Hey 2021-03-27T15:10:37Z Josh_2: has anyone written a library to downloading fasl files from a server and load them into a running image? 2021-03-27T15:10:46Z beach: jcowan: What's the context? 2021-03-27T15:11:05Z beach: Hello Josh_2. 2021-03-27T15:11:25Z phoe: Josh_2: are you thinking of some sorta compilation server? 2021-03-27T15:11:30Z Josh_2: sorta 2021-03-27T15:11:34Z phoe: and/or cache? 2021-03-27T15:11:37Z Josh_2: uh 2021-03-27T15:11:43Z jcowan: The previous discussion about work stuff vs. hobby stuff. 2021-03-27T15:12:22Z phoe: Josh_2: because I'd solve it on the unix level, via mounting a read-only network directory, and then pointing Lisp to that directory as a cache location 2021-03-27T15:12:27Z beach: jcowan: Ah, OK. 2021-03-27T15:12:54Z Josh_2: Basically I have a project that is going to be deployed in various places soon, I'd like the users to be able to just run something like #.update and the image will grab the latest signed fasls from my server and load them into the image 2021-03-27T15:13:04Z jcowan: Plus I like saying enigmatic things. :-) 2021-03-27T15:13:23Z phoe: oh, so you don't control the clients 2021-03-27T15:13:26Z phoe: I see 2021-03-27T15:13:26Z Josh_2: yeh 2021-03-27T15:14:32Z Josh_2: I don't see why I should stick with the normal means of controlling versions when I can live load code into my lisp image 2021-03-27T15:14:57Z Josh_2: CL can apply patches + add new features without having to be restarted, I think I should leverage this pwoer 2021-03-27T15:16:50Z jcowan: Does anyone understand why ) is a macro character that always raises an exception, rather than an invalid character (which also always raises an exception)? 2021-03-27T15:17:01Z Josh_2: I guess I can just make something :P 2021-03-27T15:18:38Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-03-27T15:18:57Z beach: jcowan: In Common Lisp we don't "raise exceptions", we "signal conditions". The difference is important because the exception system of most programming languages is pale in comparison with the Common Lisp condition system. 2021-03-27T15:19:25Z jcowan: I know that. My question was a substantive one. 2021-03-27T15:19:50Z jcowan: s/raises an exception/signals a condition/ 2021-03-27T15:19:59Z beach: jcowan: ) is not always invalid. Not at the end of a list. 2021-03-27T15:20:52Z jcowan: But it's always invalid in the main loop of `read`, which is what the readtable is for. ) is normally processed by read-delimited-list, which doesn't care about the readtable. 2021-03-27T15:22:13Z beach: jcowan: Are you saying READ-DELIMITED-LIST does not call READ when the next character is )? 2021-03-27T15:22:20Z beach: I don't think that is necessarily true. 2021-03-27T15:22:24Z nullx002 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-27T15:23:22Z louis771 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-27T15:23:24Z beach: As I recall, I designed Eclector so that READ-DELIMITED-LIST would handle the condition that was signaled by READ calling the reader macro for ). 2021-03-27T15:25:05Z _death: jcowan: maybe so you can have |foo )| and better error condition type.. 2021-03-27T15:25:11Z jcowan: "read-delimited-list looks ahead at each step for the next non-whitespace[2] character and peeks at it as if with peek-char. If it is _char_, then the character is consumed and the list of objects is returned. If it is a constituent or escape character, then read is used to read an object, which is added to the end of the list. If it is a macro character, its reader macro function is called; if the function returns a 2021-03-27T15:25:11Z jcowan: value, that value is added to the list. The peek-ahead process is then repeated." 2021-03-27T15:25:21Z jcowan: _death: Good point 2021-03-27T15:25:50Z beach: jcowan: I see. Thanks. 2021-03-27T15:26:48Z beach: jcowan: Ah, but ) is a macro character. Let me read that passage. 2021-03-27T15:26:51Z jcowan: Also, I assumed that escaped invalid characters are treated as constituents, but perhaps that is not true 2021-03-27T15:27:15Z prov left #lisp 2021-03-27T15:27:18Z jcowan: But the first test is for being eql to _char_, the delimiter. 2021-03-27T15:28:12Z beach: Yes, I see. 2021-03-27T15:31:24Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-27T15:35:39Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-03-27T15:37:25Z rpg quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2021-03-27T15:37:47Z gxt joined #lisp 2021-03-27T15:39:26Z long4mud quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-27T15:50:05Z beach: jcowan: Oh, but wait, READ-DELIMITED-LIST can not read dotted lists, so it can't be used directly by the reader macro for (. 2021-03-27T15:50:22Z jcowan: Ah, of course. Thanks. 2021-03-27T15:50:40Z Helmholtz joined #lisp 2021-03-27T15:50:46Z jcowan: Missed it by *that* much. 2021-03-27T15:50:55Z jcowan holds two fingers close together 2021-03-27T15:54:24Z beach: What should happen if one does (set-syntax-from-char #\] #\)) and then (read-from-string "(a b c]")? 2021-03-27T15:54:57Z beach: SBCL signals an error, but is that right? 2021-03-27T15:56:17Z jcowan: I think it is; merely copying the syntax does not make ] a true synonym for ). 2021-03-27T15:56:56Z beach: You may be right. 2021-03-27T15:57:31Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-27T15:58:15Z alanz: Josh_2, your downloading fasl files things could be done in guix. Or via nix and cachix 2021-03-27T15:58:28Z jcowan: In particular, whatever the reader macro for ( does, it must be looking for a terminator eql to ), not something which happens to have the same (opaque) reader macro as ). 2021-03-27T15:59:37Z jcowan should write reader macros for Interlisp [ and ], just to have fun with the readtable. 2021-03-27T16:01:37Z jcowan: (They mean the same as ( and ), but a ] will implicitly close (s back to the matching [, or the beginning of the outermost sexp if there is no [. The dual is also the case.) 2021-03-27T16:07:46Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-27T16:11:27Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-03-27T16:15:57Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-27T16:16:18Z louis771 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-27T16:23:12Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-03-27T16:23:47Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-27T16:24:07Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-27T16:24:36Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-27T16:25:58Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-27T16:28:38Z VincentVega: Is there a cl function which can do string substitutions like this: (sub "000" "cd" "abcd1cde") -> "ab0001000e"? 2021-03-27T16:29:02Z louis771 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-27T16:30:45Z VincentVega: nvm i just found cl-ppcre:regex-replace-all 2021-03-27T16:30:59Z gioyik joined #lisp 2021-03-27T16:31:26Z curtosis[away] joined #lisp 2021-03-27T16:35:48Z aeth: VincentVega: If they're the same length and you're actually modifying the sequence, then you can build it fairly easily with REPLACE and SEARCH (a bit harder than that because you want to replace all, though... necessitating iteration). However, in your example, you're allocating a new one and not doing a same-length substitution, so I don't think that that's in the standard. 2021-03-27T16:36:35Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-27T16:36:36Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-27T16:36:59Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-27T16:37:38Z aeth: It would still be built starting from SEARCH (or POSITION), but I'm really starting to stretch the definition of "a CL function" to go from a simple combination of two functions to, well, writing an entire algorithm. 2021-03-27T16:38:06Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-27T16:38:27Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-27T16:39:45Z Helmholtz quit (Quit: Helmholtz) 2021-03-27T16:40:32Z VincentVega: aeth: Now, that's fine, I don't need in-memory substitution, I am doing a bit of a functional approach, and the replaced strings are of different size. But thanks for the pointers, I can live with cl-ppcre dependency, no big deal. 2021-03-27T16:40:53Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-27T16:41:11Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-27T16:46:18Z zaquest quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-27T16:46:26Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-27T16:47:08Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-03-27T16:48:16Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-03-27T16:49:34Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-27T16:49:42Z Spawns_Carpeting quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-27T16:49:49Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-27T16:50:20Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-27T16:50:39Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-27T16:55:41Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-27T17:04:12Z krid joined #lisp 2021-03-27T17:06:32Z imuo joined #lisp 2021-03-27T17:07:28Z kslt1 quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-27T17:08:27Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-27T17:08:39Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-27T17:13:42Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-27T17:13:53Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-27T17:14:55Z nullx002 joined #lisp 2021-03-27T17:16:41Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-27T17:17:45Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-27T17:18:20Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-27T17:19:19Z rogersm quit 2021-03-27T17:20:34Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-27T17:26:01Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-03-27T17:27:09Z gxt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-27T17:27:25Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-27T17:28:26Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-27T17:29:13Z gxt joined #lisp 2021-03-27T17:33:31Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-27T17:37:57Z ravndal quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-03-27T17:38:04Z tyson2 joined #lisp 2021-03-27T17:40:07Z nullx002 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-27T17:40:12Z ravndal joined #lisp 2021-03-27T17:41:34Z ksierka joined #lisp 2021-03-27T17:44:58Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-27T17:46:14Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-27T17:46:30Z srandon111 joined #lisp 2021-03-27T17:46:33Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-27T17:49:42Z akoana joined #lisp 2021-03-27T17:52:59Z VincentVega53 joined #lisp 2021-03-27T17:54:39Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-27T17:56:06Z VincentVega59 joined #lisp 2021-03-27T17:56:22Z VincentVega quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-27T17:56:45Z gioyik quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-27T17:59:14Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-27T17:59:22Z VincentVega53 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-27T18:00:29Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-27T18:01:02Z VincentVega59 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-27T18:01:57Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-27T18:12:01Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-27T18:12:15Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-27T18:14:13Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-27T18:15:36Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-27T18:18:49Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2021-03-27T18:24:13Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-27T18:26:11Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-27T18:26:30Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-27T18:30:08Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-27T18:32:05Z bgardner joined #lisp 2021-03-27T18:32:39Z bgardner quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-27T18:33:02Z bgardner joined #lisp 2021-03-27T18:35:10Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-27T18:35:14Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-27T18:35:20Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-27T18:41:38Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-27T18:43:01Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-27T18:49:55Z myall joined #lisp 2021-03-27T18:49:55Z myall quit (Changing host) 2021-03-27T18:49:55Z myall joined #lisp 2021-03-27T19:06:00Z Sheilong joined #lisp 2021-03-27T19:07:28Z Reggie_ joined #lisp 2021-03-27T19:09:34Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-27T19:10:14Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-27T19:12:52Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-27T19:14:18Z Reggie_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-27T19:17:31Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-03-27T19:17:40Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-27T19:28:08Z tyson2 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-27T19:34:26Z krid quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-27T19:37:07Z cosimone` joined #lisp 2021-03-27T19:38:36Z cosimone quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-27T19:38:36Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-27T19:38:50Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-27T19:41:21Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2021-03-27T19:41:28Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-27T19:42:47Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2021-03-27T19:46:03Z gioyik joined #lisp 2021-03-27T19:51:05Z choegusung joined #lisp 2021-03-27T19:51:12Z krid joined #lisp 2021-03-27T19:51:27Z choegusung quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-27T19:51:33Z simendsjo joined #lisp 2021-03-27T19:53:23Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-27T19:55:45Z simendsjo quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-27T20:07:12Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-03-27T20:09:12Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-03-27T20:09:52Z epony quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-27T20:10:45Z imuo quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-27T20:16:10Z metallicus joined #lisp 2021-03-27T20:18:19Z Spawns_Carpeting joined #lisp 2021-03-27T20:20:21Z MrtnDk[m]: Is setf the preferred way to deal with variables in a (loop ...) ? When you loop (tail) recursively, you can use operands ... 2021-03-27T20:22:35Z Shinmera: I have no idea what you're saying. 2021-03-27T20:24:15Z metallicus quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-03-27T20:24:17Z louis771 quit (Quit: My M1 has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-27T20:24:51Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-03-27T20:27:50Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-03-27T20:27:50Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2021-03-27T20:27:50Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-03-27T20:28:48Z Jesin joined #lisp 2021-03-27T20:31:04Z cosimone` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-27T20:31:14Z phoe: MrtnDk[m]: depends 2021-03-27T20:31:21Z cosimone` joined #lisp 2021-03-27T20:31:29Z phoe: when you (loop ... for ...), you usually do not need to SETF anything 2021-03-27T20:31:36Z cosimone` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-27T20:31:49Z phoe: when you (loop ... with ...) then you *might* want to SETF these variables because otherwise they stay constant throughout the iteration 2021-03-27T20:32:00Z phoe: unless you want them to stay constant, obviously 2021-03-27T20:33:23Z Krystof: or you could use do* 2021-03-27T20:35:32Z MrtnDk[m]: If I loop for i from a to b, I might wanna manipulate some variables, like "sum", which is a sum of the numbers from a to b. (As an example, I know there are better ways to do that). 2021-03-27T20:35:57Z MrtnDk[m]: I don't know, maybe I just need to learn how to think again, in a common lisp way. 2021-03-27T20:36:44Z Shinmera: for sum = i then (+ sum i) 2021-03-27T20:37:27Z Shinmera: often you can do it with sum but sometimes you'll want to setf. I don't know what you expect as an answer to so general a question, really. 2021-03-27T20:37:38Z Shinmera: *with for 2021-03-27T20:38:37Z MrtnDk[m]: Is sum a keyword, or how do you declare it? 2021-03-27T20:38:53Z Shinmera: ? it's a variable. 2021-03-27T20:39:34Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2021-03-27T20:39:48Z MrtnDk[m]: How do you update/declare it? Maybe I lack some basic common lisp understanding, I'm New. I usually use let or setq 2021-03-27T20:41:02Z MrtnDk[m]: What I'm asking is very general. The way you do loops / iterative programming in CL is new to me. I come from scheme as a beginner in both. 2021-03-27T20:41:43Z kpoeck joined #lisp 2021-03-27T20:42:43Z Shinmera: Have you read the LOOP chapter in PCL? 2021-03-27T20:45:05Z MrtnDk[m]: I don't know what PCL is. 2021-03-27T20:45:12Z supercoven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-27T20:45:25Z Shinmera: minion: tell MrtnDk[m] about pcl 2021-03-27T20:45:26Z minion: MrtnDk[m]: look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 2021-03-27T20:45:30Z MrtnDk[m]: A book called programming in common lisp, I guess? 2021-03-27T20:45:46Z MrtnDk[m]: oh 2021-03-27T20:46:07Z MrtnDk[m]: No, I haven't read anything of that. 2021-03-27T20:46:40Z MrtnDk[m]: Seems like a good resource though. 2021-03-27T20:48:35Z MrtnDk[m]: Shinmera I can find a chapter about loop for black belts, but I would consider myself white belt or perhaps yellow ... 2021-03-27T20:49:03Z Shinmera: well, there's other chapters before it for that. 2021-03-27T20:52:26Z louis771 quit (Quit: My M1 has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-27T20:53:34Z curtosis[away] quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-27T20:53:48Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-03-27T20:57:50Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-27T20:58:17Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-27T21:00:23Z MrtnDk[m]: About loop? 2021-03-27T21:02:36Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-27T21:05:31Z Alfr: There's also tagbody and go for pastafarians. 2021-03-27T21:06:54Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-03-27T21:08:29Z louis771 quit (Quit: My M1 has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-27T21:08:39Z MrtnDk[m]: Shinmera What I meant to ask, was if the chapter for black belts, was the chapter you thinking of. 2021-03-27T21:08:56Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-03-27T21:08:57Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-27T21:09:00Z Shinmera: yes 2021-03-27T21:09:13Z _death: MrtnDk[m]: earlier chapters also discuss loop, but that chapter goes into depth 2021-03-27T21:10:02Z MrtnDk[m]: ok 2021-03-27T21:10:12Z MrtnDk[m]: Thanks. 2021-03-27T21:10:46Z lowryder joined #lisp 2021-03-27T21:11:55Z frgo quit 2021-03-27T21:12:39Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-27T21:13:47Z _death: PROG is great for finite spaghetti machines 2021-03-27T21:24:25Z krid quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-27T21:26:35Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-27T21:28:43Z krid joined #lisp 2021-03-27T21:30:48Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-03-27T21:31:02Z kpoeck quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-27T21:35:21Z epony joined #lisp 2021-03-27T21:39:10Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-27T21:47:31Z curtosis[away] joined #lisp 2021-03-27T21:51:35Z choegusung joined #lisp 2021-03-27T21:56:47Z louis771 left #lisp 2021-03-27T21:59:46Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-27T22:00:12Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-27T22:01:05Z Josh_2: Anyone used the function load-time-value? 2021-03-27T22:02:06Z Shinmera: I'm sure someone has. 2021-03-27T22:02:13Z no-defun-allowed: The function? But I have, yes. 2021-03-27T22:02:27Z Josh_2: the special form yeh 2021-03-27T22:02:49Z Josh_2: do you have an example? 2021-03-27T22:02:55Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-27T22:03:06Z choegusung quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-27T22:03:27Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-27T22:03:46Z no-defun-allowed: You can use it like #. for objects that can't be dumped in FASLs. 2021-03-27T22:08:38Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-27T22:13:31Z tpefreedom joined #lisp 2021-03-27T22:16:11Z curtosis[away] quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-27T22:24:05Z terpri_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-27T22:24:27Z terpri_ joined #lisp 2021-03-27T22:28:42Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-27T22:32:55Z pve quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-27T22:36:44Z fitzsim: I got cl-starter-script down to 60 lines and no reader conditionals 2021-03-27T22:37:11Z amerlyq joined #lisp 2021-03-27T22:38:17Z fitzsim: I should probably figure out how to put all compiler output to standard error, maybe based on an environment variable 2021-03-27T22:38:35Z fitzsim: since if anything goes wrong it fails silently 2021-03-27T22:38:53Z fitzsim: I wanted standard output to be clean on the first run though 2021-03-27T22:39:18Z amerlyq quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-27T22:39:45Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-27T22:40:11Z Helmholtz joined #lisp 2021-03-27T22:41:52Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-27T22:49:17Z jrm2 joined #lisp 2021-03-27T22:53:40Z tpefreedom quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-27T23:00:48Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-27T23:01:56Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-27T23:18:43Z jrm2 is now known as jrm 2021-03-27T23:20:30Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-27T23:22:57Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-27T23:25:11Z lowryder joined #lisp 2021-03-27T23:30:18Z luni quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-27T23:33:38Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-27T23:36:53Z cosimone quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 28.0.50)) 2021-03-27T23:38:02Z engblom quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-27T23:38:11Z engblom joined #lisp 2021-03-27T23:47:11Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-27T23:52:05Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-28T00:08:10Z Helmholtz quit (Quit: Helmholtz) 2021-03-28T00:12:20Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-03-28T00:17:06Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-28T00:18:13Z matryoshka joined #lisp 2021-03-28T00:26:16Z Josh_2` joined #lisp 2021-03-28T00:27:42Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-28T00:34:15Z Josh_2` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-28T00:44:15Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-28T00:44:16Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2021-03-28T00:44:16Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-28T00:55:57Z _jrjsmrtn joined #lisp 2021-03-28T00:58:32Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-28T00:59:41Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-28T01:05:48Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-28T01:44:23Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-28T01:44:56Z fitzsim quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-28T01:46:29Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-28T01:47:34Z fitzsim joined #lisp 2021-03-28T01:49:31Z monkey__ joined #lisp 2021-03-28T01:50:33Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-03-28T01:59:27Z monkey__ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-28T02:04:16Z semz joined #lisp 2021-03-28T02:04:33Z imuo joined #lisp 2021-03-28T02:10:54Z prov joined #lisp 2021-03-28T02:17:03Z femi quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-28T02:25:51Z femi joined #lisp 2021-03-28T02:29:58Z aartaka_d quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-28T02:32:18Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-28T02:35:59Z Sheilong quit 2021-03-28T02:50:12Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-28T02:52:57Z akoana left #lisp 2021-03-28T03:02:20Z Alfr quit (Killed (rajaniemi.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))) 2021-03-28T03:02:24Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-03-28T03:15:34Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-03-28T03:21:17Z elusive joined #lisp 2021-03-28T03:34:16Z kevingal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-28T03:36:37Z mrchampion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-28T03:46:45Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-28T03:47:03Z davisr_ joined #lisp 2021-03-28T03:48:00Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-03-28T03:49:26Z davisr quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-28T03:53:39Z rigidus` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-28T04:00:50Z elusive quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-28T04:15:03Z Helmholtz joined #lisp 2021-03-28T04:16:06Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2021-03-28T04:23:15Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-28T04:25:11Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-03-28T04:35:13Z prov` joined #lisp 2021-03-28T04:35:33Z prov quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-28T04:48:39Z Helmholtz quit (Quit: Helmholtz) 2021-03-28T04:51:58Z prov`` joined #lisp 2021-03-28T04:52:47Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-28T04:53:55Z prov` quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-28T04:54:18Z krid quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-28T04:56:50Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-03-28T04:58:45Z MrtnDk[m]: Hey beach 2021-03-28T05:08:54Z prov`` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-28T05:09:11Z prov`` joined #lisp 2021-03-28T05:09:31Z matryoshka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-28T05:13:53Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-28T05:17:16Z imuo is now known as uwu 2021-03-28T05:17:30Z uwu is now known as imuo 2021-03-28T05:27:06Z tiwEllien joined #lisp 2021-03-28T05:29:18Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-03-28T05:35:02Z wxie joined #lisp 2021-03-28T05:35:17Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-28T05:37:01Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-03-28T05:41:22Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-28T05:49:00Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-28T05:53:58Z prov``` joined #lisp 2021-03-28T05:55:35Z prov`` quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-28T05:58:38Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-28T06:08:46Z prov``` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 28.0.50)) 2021-03-28T06:16:17Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-28T06:20:03Z kim\ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-28T06:22:24Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-28T06:25:45Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-28T06:34:05Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-28T06:34:18Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-28T06:36:25Z curtosis joined #lisp 2021-03-28T06:38:21Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-28T06:38:52Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-28T06:44:04Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2021-03-28T06:48:10Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-28T06:53:19Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-28T06:54:38Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2021-03-28T07:00:16Z gxt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-28T07:00:45Z gxt joined #lisp 2021-03-28T07:07:03Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-28T07:10:41Z curtosis is now known as curtosis[away] 2021-03-28T07:13:26Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-03-28T07:26:03Z curtosis[away] quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-28T07:31:04Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-28T07:31:45Z gurmble joined #lisp 2021-03-28T07:32:40Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-28T07:35:31Z wxie joined #lisp 2021-03-28T07:35:41Z grumble quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-28T07:35:49Z gurmble is now known as grumble 2021-03-28T07:37:13Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-28T07:38:01Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-28T07:40:28Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-28T07:41:38Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-03-28T07:41:51Z xsperry quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-28T07:49:35Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-28T07:53:10Z Posterdati quit (Quit: KVIrc 5.0.0 Aria http://www.kvirc.net/) 2021-03-28T08:06:57Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-28T08:07:11Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-03-28T08:08:22Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-28T08:09:33Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-28T08:10:12Z pve joined #lisp 2021-03-28T08:10:18Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-28T08:12:41Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-28T08:13:18Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2021-03-28T08:17:50Z phoe: morniiing 2021-03-28T08:18:00Z beach: Hello phoe. 2021-03-28T08:25:52Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-03-28T08:29:10Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-28T08:29:26Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-28T08:41:46Z xsperry joined #lisp 2021-03-28T08:48:26Z rogersm: morning 2021-03-28T08:48:40Z Inline: more ning 2021-03-28T08:49:15Z beach: Hello rogersm. Hello Inline. 2021-03-28T08:50:13Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-28T08:57:14Z Inline quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-28T08:57:57Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-03-28T09:00:14Z surabax joined #lisp 2021-03-28T09:01:53Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-28T09:05:09Z Inline quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-28T09:07:52Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-03-28T09:17:11Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-03-28T09:20:27Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2021-03-28T09:24:22Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2021-03-28T09:24:56Z tiwEllien quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-28T09:25:22Z tiwEllien joined #lisp 2021-03-28T09:41:37Z imuo quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-28T09:47:19Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-28T09:50:08Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2021-03-28T09:57:46Z rgherdt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-28T10:00:06Z vegansbane6963 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-03-28T10:01:17Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2021-03-28T10:23:26Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-28T10:26:37Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-28T10:33:49Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-03-28T10:49:20Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-28T10:49:20Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-28T10:50:06Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-28T10:50:07Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-28T10:50:27Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-28T10:52:55Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-28T10:53:51Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-28T10:56:00Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-28T10:57:04Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-28T10:57:04Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-28T10:57:17Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-28T10:58:24Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-28T10:58:50Z luni quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-28T11:14:51Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-28T11:15:01Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-28T11:15:32Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-03-28T11:20:29Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-28T11:23:47Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-28T11:27:25Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-28T11:27:53Z ym joined #lisp 2021-03-28T11:28:02Z ym quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-28T11:28:29Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-28T11:30:30Z galex-713 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-28T11:31:37Z ym joined #lisp 2021-03-28T11:31:44Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-28T11:32:00Z ym is now known as Guest82407 2021-03-28T11:34:38Z Guest82407 is now known as yvm 2021-03-28T11:38:39Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-28T11:39:33Z Kingsy_ left #lisp 2021-03-28T11:51:27Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-28T11:56:47Z isoraqathedh quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8) 2021-03-28T12:16:30Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-28T12:19:07Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-03-28T12:19:43Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-28T12:26:46Z monkey__ joined #lisp 2021-03-28T12:29:07Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-03-28T12:29:27Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-28T12:30:02Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-28T12:32:10Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-28T12:32:51Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-28T12:46:08Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-03-28T12:53:14Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-03-28T12:57:13Z rigidus joined #lisp 2021-03-28T13:02:24Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-28T13:04:24Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-28T13:04:37Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-28T13:04:38Z ksierka quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-28T13:09:44Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-03-28T13:23:47Z monkey__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-28T13:31:50Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-28T13:35:57Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-28T13:36:37Z theothornhill: Hello! If I have a string, how do I parse out the char code for newline? Ex: (char "Hi!\n" 3) => #\n, and I want (char "Hi!\n" 3) => #\Newline. How do I do that? 2021-03-28T13:36:59Z mrchampion joined #lisp 2021-03-28T13:38:15Z phoe: Common Lisp strings don't escape \n the way C does 2021-03-28T13:38:28Z phoe: "\n" is one character long, because \ makes a single escape for the character n 2021-03-28T13:38:34Z phoe: so "\n" === "n" 2021-03-28T13:38:47Z phoe: you may want CL-INTERPOL for interpolating literal strings in your code 2021-03-28T13:40:11Z theothornhill: I don't think I need that, since what I'm doing is parsing a string, and incrementing a value when I reach a "\n". I do the check with (char-code), but now it returns 110 (#\n, as you say), and not 10 (#\Newline) 2021-03-28T13:40:15Z beach: The best thing would be to avoid strings with C-specific syntax, such as this one. 2021-03-28T13:40:18Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2021-03-28T13:40:50Z theothornhill: So how would you get the newline? 2021-03-28T13:40:57Z beach: theothornhill: That's because the string does not contain a newline as phoe pointed out. 2021-03-28T13:41:18Z phoe: (cl-interpol:enable-interpol-syntax) (char #?"Hi!\n" 3) ;=> #\Newline 2021-03-28T13:41:36Z beach: theothornhill: It contains an `n' instead. The best thing would be not to produce such a string in the first place. 2021-03-28T13:41:54Z phoe: theothornhill: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2362#2362 2021-03-28T13:41:56Z phoe: there's also this 2021-03-28T13:42:04Z phoe: this is how you get a *literal* newline in Lisp strings 2021-03-28T13:42:10Z phoe: by, emm, literally making a newline 2021-03-28T13:42:41Z theothornhill: hmm that may actually be good enough by itself! 2021-03-28T13:43:15Z phoe: :D 2021-03-28T13:43:26Z beach: theothornhill: If you write Common Lisp code, there is usually no reason to put C-specific stuff in your strings. 2021-03-28T13:43:59Z phoe: there's this belief that "\n" is the only way of getting newlines inside strings 2021-03-28T13:44:01Z theothornhill: Yeah, I'm not. I'm writing a parser for graphql, and just want to increment the line number when I reach a newline 2021-03-28T13:44:11Z Nilby: or just (format nil "Hi!~c" #\newline) 2021-03-28T13:44:13Z phoe: but you know there is this thing called "Hello 2021-03-28T13:44:15Z phoe: world!" 2021-03-28T13:44:20Z phoe: or what Nilby said 2021-03-28T13:44:40Z beach: Nilby: Or use ~%. 2021-03-28T13:45:38Z theothornhill: So I think it would be good enough to just read a file as a string, then (char file-as-string position) should give me newline when I see one. :fingers-crossed: 2021-03-28T13:45:57Z phoe: sure, that works 2021-03-28T13:46:10Z phoe: mind the windows CRLF stuff, and other than that you should be good 2021-03-28T13:47:01Z theothornhill: Yeah, I think I know how I'd handle that. Was mostly bothered by the \n thing. Thanks :) 2021-03-28T13:47:12Z phoe: :D 2021-03-28T13:47:30Z davisr_ is now known as davisr 2021-03-28T13:47:44Z matryoshka joined #lisp 2021-03-28T13:53:20Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-28T13:53:58Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-28T13:58:27Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-28T13:58:28Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2021-03-28T14:00:59Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-28T14:02:38Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-28T14:06:42Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-28T14:11:11Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-03-28T14:11:18Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-28T14:11:26Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-28T14:20:00Z kevingal quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-28T14:20:04Z kevingal_ joined #lisp 2021-03-28T14:32:34Z yvm quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-28T14:53:15Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-28T14:53:26Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-28T14:54:09Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-28T14:56:26Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-28T14:59:57Z cantstanya quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-28T15:00:30Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-28T15:03:06Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-28T15:03:24Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-28T15:03:36Z cantstanya joined #lisp 2021-03-28T15:05:05Z Helmholtz joined #lisp 2021-03-28T15:05:43Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-28T15:07:34Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-28T15:08:50Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2021-03-28T15:11:18Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-28T15:11:26Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-03-28T15:11:26Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2021-03-28T15:11:26Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-03-28T15:11:36Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-28T15:11:54Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-28T15:14:29Z caoliver joined #lisp 2021-03-28T15:15:01Z caoliver: Any obvious workaround for slime's use of sb-kernel:%simple-fun-next? 2021-03-28T15:17:07Z caoliver: That symbol was excised in 2.1.2. I suppose I could revert. 2021-03-28T15:19:19Z phoe: caoliver: upgrade slime I guess? 2021-03-28T15:19:23Z phoe: I think a fix was pushed 2021-03-28T15:19:50Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-28T15:19:58Z caoliver: I just pulled the git. Hang a sec. I may have just installed an old branch. Let me try again. 2021-03-28T15:20:49Z phoe: the current git master gives no hits when searched for simple-fun-next or %simple-fun-next on github 2021-03-28T15:21:06Z caoliver: OK. That's probably what happened. I had a patch to deal with Slackware's version of texinfo. 2021-03-28T15:21:16Z caoliver: I need to cherrypick that. 2021-03-28T15:21:31Z caoliver: errr... rebase 2021-03-28T15:21:49Z phoe: good luck gittin' it to work 2021-03-28T15:22:40Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-28T15:25:24Z caoliver: It lives! 2021-03-28T15:25:28Z phoe: :O 2021-03-28T15:25:37Z phoe: kill it before it lays egg---- I mean, congrats! 2021-03-28T15:26:33Z caoliver: There was a two line patch on the texinfo to cope with missing codequoteundirected and codequotebacktick on Slackware. 2021-03-28T15:26:44Z phoe: ooh, I see 2021-03-28T15:27:17Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-28T15:27:20Z caoliver: Upgrading SBCL often means upgrading slime and always maxima. 2021-03-28T15:27:57Z caoliver keeps maxima around 'cos the computer's a better bookkeeper than he is. 2021-03-28T15:28:42Z caoliver: Back during early calc I remember making sign errors copying problems that turned trivial exercises into insoluble problems. 2021-03-28T15:29:04Z beach: caoliver: Have you tried Climaxima? 2021-03-28T15:29:59Z caoliver: No. I use the wxmaxima shell. I'm certainly interested in having SBCL as something to live in rather than just run though. 2021-03-28T15:30:28Z caoliver used to have a 'bolix xl1201 back when dinosaurs roams the earth. 2021-03-28T15:30:33Z beach: As you can perhaps guess, Climaxima uses McCLIM for its rendering. 2021-03-28T15:30:36Z caoliver: roamed 2021-03-28T15:31:06Z beach: loke[m]1 did a lot of work to make it look nice. 2021-03-28T15:31:07Z caoliver: I wish I still had the keyboard, but an idiot tossed it when I wasn't watching. 2021-03-28T15:31:20Z caoliver: It's your personal proj? Cool! 2021-03-28T15:31:32Z beach: Me? No. 2021-03-28T15:32:06Z caoliver should learn more about CLIM. 2021-03-28T15:32:41Z caoliver: Main HLL GUI framework I've hacked on is Morphic under Squeak. 2021-03-28T15:33:45Z caoliver: Anywho, I think I have everything that *was* working working again, so I need to push stuff out to the other boxes. 2021-03-28T15:36:55Z beach: loke[m]1: Do you have a handy link for a Climaxima demo? 2021-03-28T15:37:27Z beach: I was trying to locate a link in the #clim logs, but I failed. 2021-03-28T15:42:08Z beach: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VIT_Ml2v-Q is not representative, but it's what I could fine. 2021-03-28T15:43:10Z beach: find 2021-03-28T15:43:12Z beach: *sigh* 2021-03-28T15:44:50Z caoliver: I just glanced at the watcher video too. 2021-03-28T15:47:21Z luni quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-28T15:48:52Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-28T15:48:53Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-28T15:49:07Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-28T15:51:59Z loke[m]1: This one? https://peertube.functional.cafe/videos/watch/c55d0e37-b92f-4070-9b37-6fb7f8459fd5 2021-03-28T15:52:07Z phoe: !!!! 2021-03-28T15:52:14Z phoe: functional.cafe has a peertube instance? wow! 2021-03-28T15:52:26Z phoe TIL 2021-03-28T16:03:15Z user51 joined #lisp 2021-03-28T16:03:43Z caoliver: Snow... bleah! 2021-03-28T16:07:42Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-03-28T16:08:42Z caoliver considers a bagel/lox run. 2021-03-28T16:09:19Z user51: any recommendation for lisp code suitable to reading for a beginner? 2021-03-28T16:09:31Z phoe: user51: Alexandria and split-sequence 2021-03-28T16:09:53Z phoe: also shameless plug - https://github.com/phoe/portable-condition-system 2021-03-28T16:10:32Z phoe: I tried to make this last repo to be readable and understandable by people new to Lisp 2021-03-28T16:11:13Z phoe: look at the .asd file for the order in which you should try to read the files in the src/ directory 2021-03-28T16:11:17Z user51: sounds like a tough call, as readable means different things to different people 2021-03-28T16:11:23Z user51: i appreciate the effort nonetheless 2021-03-28T16:11:30Z phoe: yep, can't make something that suits everyone 2021-03-28T16:11:42Z phoe: but that doesn't mean that such tries are futile 2021-03-28T16:13:24Z _death: https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp 2021-03-28T16:14:56Z loke[m]1: beach apart from the one I posted above, there were a few others that are lost 2021-03-28T16:16:51Z phoe: remember the channel is logged, we can try to find them! 2021-03-28T16:18:49Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-28T16:26:13Z loke[m]1: They were on a different peertube instance that is down now. 2021-03-28T16:26:36Z phoe: ouch 2021-03-28T16:28:29Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-28T16:28:31Z toorevitimirp quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2021-03-28T16:31:28Z Colleen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-28T16:31:43Z Colleen joined #lisp 2021-03-28T16:33:16Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-28T16:33:45Z Sheilong joined #lisp 2021-03-28T16:35:16Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-28T16:36:12Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-28T16:37:57Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-03-28T16:41:55Z toorevitimirp quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-28T16:42:30Z heisig joined #lisp 2021-03-28T16:44:24Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-28T16:44:54Z tiwEllien quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-28T16:45:37Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-28T16:46:07Z tiwEllien joined #lisp 2021-03-28T16:46:29Z supercoven joined #lisp 2021-03-28T16:46:54Z zaquest quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-28T16:47:36Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-03-28T16:51:08Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-28T16:51:21Z semz joined #lisp 2021-03-28T16:55:21Z imuo joined #lisp 2021-03-28T16:57:16Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2021-03-28T16:59:41Z stux|RC quit (Quit: Aloha!) 2021-03-28T17:02:00Z elusive joined #lisp 2021-03-28T17:02:09Z abhixec joined #lisp 2021-03-28T17:03:53Z stux|RC joined #lisp 2021-03-28T17:05:27Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-03-28T17:05:32Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-28T17:11:37Z stux|RC quit (Quit: Aloha!) 2021-03-28T17:14:07Z stux|RC joined #lisp 2021-03-28T17:16:22Z supercoven_ joined #lisp 2021-03-28T17:19:26Z supercoven quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-28T17:39:09Z user51 left #lisp 2021-03-28T17:42:02Z lotuseater joined #lisp 2021-03-28T17:43:21Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2021-03-28T17:48:31Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-28T17:48:42Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-28T17:51:19Z unimog joined #lisp 2021-03-28T17:51:34Z johnjay joined #lisp 2021-03-28T17:52:01Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2021-03-28T17:52:25Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-28T17:54:58Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-28T17:55:14Z unimog quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-28T17:56:11Z hiroaki quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-28T17:56:52Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-03-28T18:06:42Z srhm joined #lisp 2021-03-28T18:07:54Z beach: loke[m]1: Thanks! That will do I hope. 2021-03-28T18:10:44Z lotuseater: Hey fellow lispers, long time no see :) Had a question some days ago. DEFINE-COMPILER-MACRO is just for DEFUNs, not for DEFMETHODs, right? 2021-03-28T18:12:21Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-28T18:12:29Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-28T18:13:58Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-28T18:15:33Z bjorkintosh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-28T18:17:05Z semz: lotuseater: you don't call a specific method, you call the generic function; but afaik compiler macros for generic functions are completely fine. 2021-03-28T18:18:23Z lotuseater: oh cool. but there's not much written about them in general, do you have sources? 2021-03-28T18:19:03Z lotuseater: CLHS and Let over Lambda is in my mind covering that 2021-03-28T18:19:08Z semz: i'm going off clhs 3.2.2.1 here 2021-03-28T18:19:45Z semz: documentation on compiler macros is generally kinda lacking 2021-03-28T18:20:49Z lotuseater: yes but they're most times rarely to use 2021-03-28T18:25:46Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2021-03-28T18:27:29Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-28T18:27:30Z hineios quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-03-28T18:28:19Z hineios joined #lisp 2021-03-28T18:32:34Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-28T18:32:56Z phoe: compiler macros can be used for GFs just fine 2021-03-28T18:33:17Z phoe: it's just pretty rare, given that GFs are extensible by nature and compiler macros are, well, not 2021-03-28T18:33:22Z phoe: unless you explicitly make them so 2021-03-28T18:35:35Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-28T18:36:12Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-28T18:39:44Z luni quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-28T18:39:45Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-28T18:40:57Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-28T18:43:13Z CrazyPython joined #lisp 2021-03-28T18:43:14Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-28T18:43:31Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-28T18:45:39Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-28T18:47:02Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-28T18:49:34Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-28T18:49:41Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-28T18:50:48Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-28T18:51:06Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-28T18:52:23Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-28T18:55:48Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-28T18:57:21Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-28T18:59:18Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-28T18:59:34Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-28T19:01:38Z rgherdt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-28T19:05:03Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2021-03-28T19:07:58Z imuo quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-28T19:09:06Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-28T19:10:58Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-28T19:11:26Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2021-03-28T19:11:42Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-28T19:12:54Z caoliver: Eeek! I read GF as Galois Field rather than Generic Function. 2021-03-28T19:13:56Z edgar-rft: I first must ask my GF to see what she thinks about that. 2021-03-28T19:14:14Z srhm quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-28T19:15:03Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-28T19:15:36Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2021-03-28T19:16:42Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-28T19:17:43Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-28T19:17:47Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-28T19:22:15Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-28T19:22:57Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-28T19:23:21Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-28T19:24:09Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-28T19:25:41Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-28T19:27:19Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-28T19:27:56Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-28T19:29:32Z bonz060 quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-03-28T19:31:51Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-28T19:31:59Z bonz060 joined #lisp 2021-03-28T19:33:17Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-28T19:37:27Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-28T19:37:39Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-28T19:38:49Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-28T19:38:49Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-28T19:39:02Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-28T19:39:33Z semz: Galois Fields certainly are extensible, though I'm not sure what the standard says about compiler macros for them. 2021-03-28T19:39:40Z caoliver: Heh! 2021-03-28T19:41:40Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2021-03-28T19:42:28Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-28T19:43:03Z cosimone quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-28T19:43:07Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2021-03-28T19:45:34Z lotuseater: haha now i get it semz, "GF" ^^ 2021-03-28T19:45:34Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-28T19:46:46Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-28T19:47:02Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-28T19:47:02Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-28T19:47:11Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-28T19:47:34Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-28T19:48:41Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-28T19:48:41Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-28T19:49:28Z johnjay joined #lisp 2021-03-28T19:49:38Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-28T19:51:57Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-28T19:52:09Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-28T19:52:22Z v3ga quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-28T19:52:56Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-28T19:54:32Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-03-28T19:54:57Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-28T19:56:18Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-28T19:56:51Z raeda joined #lisp 2021-03-28T19:56:58Z choegusung joined #lisp 2021-03-28T19:58:57Z unimog joined #lisp 2021-03-28T20:01:42Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-28T20:01:55Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-28T20:03:09Z unimog quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-28T20:03:15Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-28T20:04:36Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-28T20:05:16Z elusive quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-28T20:11:59Z choegusung quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-28T20:12:48Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-28T20:15:16Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-28T20:15:30Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-28T20:17:34Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-28T20:18:01Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-28T20:19:52Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-28T20:19:57Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-28T20:20:21Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-28T20:20:53Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-28T20:21:26Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-28T20:26:58Z motersen joined #lisp 2021-03-28T20:30:46Z supercoven_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-28T20:34:44Z bonz060 quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-03-28T20:35:04Z bonz060 joined #lisp 2021-03-28T20:37:40Z bonz060 quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-28T20:38:02Z bonz060 joined #lisp 2021-03-28T20:40:06Z bonz060 quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-28T20:40:31Z bonz060 joined #lisp 2021-03-28T20:41:00Z CrazyPython quit 2021-03-28T20:43:52Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2021-03-28T20:46:27Z CrazyPython joined #lisp 2021-03-28T20:48:34Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-28T20:50:00Z CrazyPython is now known as JamesLu 2021-03-28T20:50:18Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-28T20:51:57Z curtosis[away] joined #lisp 2021-03-28T20:55:36Z abhixec quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-28T20:58:36Z pve quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-28T21:01:06Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-28T21:05:38Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-28T21:06:27Z heisig quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-28T21:09:54Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-28T21:12:04Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-28T21:13:42Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-28T21:13:43Z tiwEllien quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-28T21:20:23Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-28T21:20:38Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-28T21:21:50Z curtosis[away] quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-28T21:23:26Z motersen quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-28T21:24:01Z epony quit (Quit: upgrade) 2021-03-28T21:24:05Z akoana joined #lisp 2021-03-28T21:28:25Z epony joined #lisp 2021-03-28T21:30:39Z raeda quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-28T21:31:01Z raeda joined #lisp 2021-03-28T21:45:20Z JamesLu quit 2021-03-28T21:47:28Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-28T21:48:33Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-28T21:54:39Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-28T21:57:06Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-28T21:57:25Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-03-28T22:00:18Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-28T22:02:18Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-28T22:02:41Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-28T22:11:27Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-28T22:11:46Z _Ark_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-28T22:12:14Z ark joined #lisp 2021-03-28T22:17:45Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-28T22:22:39Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-28T22:34:30Z v3ga joined #lisp 2021-03-28T22:34:45Z CrazyPython joined #lisp 2021-03-28T22:35:26Z CrazyPython is now known as JamesLu 2021-03-28T22:35:31Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-28T22:38:22Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-03-28T22:40:10Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-28T22:40:11Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-28T22:44:49Z karlosz quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-28T22:45:37Z monkey__ joined #lisp 2021-03-28T22:47:07Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-28T22:47:33Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-28T22:48:38Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-28T22:53:11Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-28T22:54:41Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-28T22:54:53Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-28T22:56:30Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-28T22:57:39Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-28T22:58:17Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2021-03-28T23:00:07Z defaultxr: is it possible in CL to do something like (defun (setf *variable*) (value) ...) to intercept setting of a variable's value? i'm guessing not. basically trying to change a variable into a class slot while preserving backwards compatibility for users of my library 2021-03-28T23:01:45Z Xach: defaultxr: symbol macros, sort of. 2021-03-28T23:02:16Z defaultxr: hmm... will look into this, thanks! 2021-03-28T23:05:06Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-28T23:05:10Z defaultxr: exactly what i needed, thank you :) 2021-03-28T23:09:47Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-28T23:11:26Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2021-03-28T23:12:10Z Xach: great! 2021-03-28T23:22:57Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-28T23:25:18Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-28T23:28:00Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-28T23:32:51Z kevingal_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-28T23:34:07Z Spawns_Carpeting quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-28T23:35:33Z Spawns_Carpeting joined #lisp 2021-03-28T23:36:02Z aeth: On that note, SYMBOL-MACROLET is how WITH-ACCESSORS is (probably) implemented. Although you kind of want a global version of that. 2021-03-28T23:38:33Z xsperry quit 2021-03-28T23:38:58Z xsperry joined #lisp 2021-03-28T23:40:09Z aeth: Symbol macros are incredibly useful things. You can use them to e.g. treat multiple values like one value. (Combine a function that returns VALUES with a SETF form, defined via DEFSETF, to take in multiple values) 2021-03-28T23:40:16Z aeth: There's probably some even fancier trick 2021-03-28T23:40:46Z madage quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-28T23:41:14Z monkey__ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-28T23:43:22Z igemnace joined #lisp 2021-03-28T23:45:20Z madage joined #lisp 2021-03-28T23:46:41Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-28T23:47:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: macros as places might be useful too 2021-03-28T23:49:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: slightly different use-case 2021-03-28T23:49:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: (let ((a 1) (b 2) (c 3)) (list (list a b c) (symbol-macrolet ((v (values a b c))) (setf v (values c b a)))) (list a b c)) 2021-03-28T23:50:06Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-28T23:51:12Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-28T23:54:50Z mfiano: symbol macros + &environment capturing gives you pre-ANSI compiler-let ability I have read, though I haven't explored this in detail. 2021-03-29T00:00:33Z hvxgr quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-29T00:00:49Z hvxgr joined #lisp 2021-03-29T00:03:06Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-29T00:04:07Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-29T00:04:12Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-29T00:06:38Z theothor` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-29T00:06:47Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-29T00:12:04Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-29T00:19:56Z JamesLu quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-29T00:20:24Z CrazyPython joined #lisp 2021-03-29T00:22:59Z Sheilong quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-29T00:25:11Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-29T00:29:26Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-29T00:36:11Z renzhi quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-29T00:43:40Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-29T00:44:48Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-29T00:45:28Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-29T00:45:43Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-29T00:51:24Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-29T00:59:44Z cosimone quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-29T01:02:18Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-29T01:13:55Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-29T01:14:36Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-29T01:18:23Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-29T01:25:16Z Helmholtz quit (Quit: Helmholtz) 2021-03-29T01:26:29Z cosimone quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-29T01:28:55Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-29T01:34:16Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-29T01:37:04Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2021-03-29T01:39:38Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-29T01:42:04Z semz joined #lisp 2021-03-29T01:42:04Z semz quit (Changing host) 2021-03-29T01:42:04Z semz joined #lisp 2021-03-29T01:42:51Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-29T01:44:22Z gioyik_ joined #lisp 2021-03-29T01:45:11Z wxie joined #lisp 2021-03-29T01:47:33Z gioyik quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-29T01:51:05Z imuo joined #lisp 2021-03-29T01:51:11Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-29T01:53:32Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-29T01:53:53Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-29T01:55:48Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-29T01:56:35Z akoana left #lisp 2021-03-29T01:59:39Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-29T01:59:41Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-29T02:05:33Z Sheilong joined #lisp 2021-03-29T02:07:30Z sauvin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-29T02:10:05Z sauvin joined #lisp 2021-03-29T02:12:21Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-29T02:16:49Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-29T02:17:39Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-29T02:17:42Z CrazyPython quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-29T02:18:35Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-29T02:19:12Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-29T02:19:24Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-29T02:20:34Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-29T02:22:20Z gioyik joined #lisp 2021-03-29T02:23:57Z gioyik_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-29T02:24:58Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-29T02:31:40Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-29T02:38:29Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-29T02:41:19Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-29T02:43:46Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-29T02:55:17Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-29T02:59:11Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-29T02:59:41Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-29T03:01:50Z Alfr is now known as Guest76418 2021-03-29T03:01:50Z Guest76418 quit (Killed (egan.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))) 2021-03-29T03:01:54Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-03-29T03:03:42Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2021-03-29T03:04:28Z MrtnDk[m]: Goodmorning. 2021-03-29T03:07:04Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-29T03:12:19Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-29T03:15:12Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-29T03:15:28Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-29T03:17:11Z SAL9000 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-03-29T03:17:16Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-29T03:18:58Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-29T03:19:16Z SAL9000 joined #lisp 2021-03-29T03:19:44Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-29T03:26:09Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-29T03:26:26Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-29T03:30:07Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-29T03:33:32Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2021-03-29T03:35:28Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-29T03:36:19Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-29T03:46:35Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-29T03:49:22Z heisig joined #lisp 2021-03-29T03:50:59Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-29T04:00:42Z curtosis joined #lisp 2021-03-29T04:02:53Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-29T04:07:24Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-29T04:08:31Z sm2n: Is there a way to introspect all uses of a symbol in the current image? Ideally in a certain position? 2021-03-29T04:08:56Z sm2n: i.e I want to know all uses of FOO, in function application position 2021-03-29T04:09:09Z zaquest quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-29T04:10:07Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-03-29T04:12:11Z greaser|q quit (Changing host) 2021-03-29T04:12:11Z greaser|q joined #lisp 2021-03-29T04:12:15Z greaser|q is now known as GreaseMonkey 2021-03-29T04:18:52Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-29T04:22:07Z beach: clhs do-all-symbols 2021-03-29T04:22:07Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_do_sym.htm 2021-03-29T04:22:23Z beach: sm2n: Oh, you want to know the call sites? 2021-03-29T04:22:44Z beach: That would be implementation specific. 2021-03-29T04:23:23Z beach: And the system is not required to keep such information, which is fortunate, or else we would not have any commercial Common Lisp vendors. 2021-03-29T04:24:00Z curtosis quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-29T04:24:17Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-29T04:35:13Z gioyik_ joined #lisp 2021-03-29T04:35:33Z gioyik quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-29T04:35:59Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-29T04:40:18Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-29T04:41:12Z heisig quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-29T04:49:02Z wxie joined #lisp 2021-03-29T04:52:13Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-29T04:55:40Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-29T04:56:18Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-29T04:56:58Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-29T04:59:58Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-29T05:12:45Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-29T05:18:01Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-29T05:18:34Z indathrone joined #lisp 2021-03-29T05:20:05Z indathrone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-29T05:20:21Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2021-03-29T05:23:32Z White_Flame: sm2n: I was going to say maybe you could try a heap walker, but those symbol references would exist embedded in machine code as well (probably mostly PC-relative data & closure slots), which might be even harder to introspect 2021-03-29T05:24:14Z White_Flame: but the GC would need to know they're there, too 2021-03-29T05:25:41Z White_Flame: and while you could detect the reference in a function to a symbol, as beach said the debug info linking that back to sexpr form usage wouldn't be guaranteed to be there anyway. Function-object level would be the most granular you could get 2021-03-29T05:26:30Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-29T05:29:22Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-29T05:31:16Z aindilis joined #lisp 2021-03-29T05:33:54Z aindilis quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-29T05:33:57Z Sheilong quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-29T05:34:17Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-29T05:34:40Z vegai joined #lisp 2021-03-29T05:35:42Z aindilis joined #lisp 2021-03-29T05:43:38Z cchristiansen joined #lisp 2021-03-29T05:43:46Z cchristiansen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-29T05:45:07Z indathrone joined #lisp 2021-03-29T05:49:57Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-29T05:51:01Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-03-29T05:54:18Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-29T05:59:24Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-29T06:06:21Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-29T06:09:42Z imuo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-29T06:10:59Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-29T06:11:02Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-03-29T06:12:31Z GreaseMonkey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-29T06:20:06Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-29T06:22:33Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-29T06:26:14Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-29T06:27:03Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-29T06:28:15Z imuo joined #lisp 2021-03-29T06:38:08Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-03-29T06:38:59Z gioyik_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-03-29T06:45:09Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-03-29T06:52:34Z mgsk_ quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.0 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-29T06:57:01Z greaser|q joined #lisp 2021-03-29T06:57:04Z mgsk_ joined #lisp 2021-03-29T07:04:53Z surabax joined #lisp 2021-03-29T07:08:36Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-29T07:10:28Z isoraqathedh joined #lisp 2021-03-29T07:12:55Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-29T07:13:59Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-29T07:16:43Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-03-29T07:40:22Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-03-29T07:55:46Z rixard quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-29T07:56:15Z rixard joined #lisp 2021-03-29T07:57:54Z rixard quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-29T07:58:47Z rixard joined #lisp 2021-03-29T08:00:22Z pve joined #lisp 2021-03-29T08:01:27Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-03-29T08:01:52Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-03-29T08:04:02Z heisig joined #lisp 2021-03-29T08:07:35Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-03-29T08:07:51Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-29T08:07:53Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-29T08:08:08Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-29T08:10:28Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-29T08:10:33Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-29T08:10:45Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-29T08:13:09Z easye quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-03-29T08:14:32Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2021-03-29T08:15:41Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-29T08:16:51Z zdravko61 joined #lisp 2021-03-29T08:17:45Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-29T08:18:08Z theothor` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-29T08:25:33Z easye joined #lisp 2021-03-29T08:40:40Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-03-29T08:44:23Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-03-29T09:07:43Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-29T09:08:37Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-29T09:08:46Z heisig quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-29T09:11:33Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-29T09:17:02Z imuo quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-29T09:26:23Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-29T09:37:17Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-29T09:45:51Z spal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-29T09:46:01Z spal joined #lisp 2021-03-29T09:52:20Z motersen joined #lisp 2021-03-29T09:57:38Z heisig joined #lisp 2021-03-29T10:00:06Z vegansbane6963 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-03-29T10:01:40Z gitgood quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-29T10:13:38Z OlCe joined #lisp 2021-03-29T10:14:38Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-29T10:16:17Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-29T10:16:39Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-03-29T10:19:26Z igemnace quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-29T10:20:50Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-29T10:21:04Z jmercouris: beach: can we put cluffer on quicklisp? Would you object to that? 2021-03-29T10:24:41Z puchacz joined #lisp 2021-03-29T10:26:58Z puchacz: hi, in lparallel, https://github.com/lmj/lparallel/blob/master/src/kernel/stealing-scheduler.lisp, line 98, the function wakes up a worker only if there is a worker waiting 2021-03-29T10:27:48Z puchacz: using with-lock-predicate/wait which gets expanded to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-checked_locking - so it checks if there is a worker waiting before acquiring a lock, and if there is, it grabs a lock and checks again 2021-03-29T10:28:10Z puchacz: is it actually correct? the first check may incorrectly show that there is no worker waiting 2021-03-29T10:33:19Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-03-29T10:33:27Z zdravko61 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-29T10:33:33Z puchacz: there is a notify-count as well, updated only within a locked block, maybe it helps:)  ? 2021-03-29T10:38:25Z puchacz: right, wait-count uses atomic counter, e.g. sb-ext:atomic-decf 2021-03-29T10:38:27Z puchacz: all good 2021-03-29T10:38:34Z puchacz: (I think) 2021-03-29T10:38:47Z zdravko61 joined #lisp 2021-03-29T10:39:02Z puchacz: but then why it checks the condition inside the lock block again? 2021-03-29T10:39:09Z puchacz: before sending notify 2021-03-29T10:40:44Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-29T10:45:13Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-29T10:45:44Z luni quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-29T10:46:08Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-29T10:46:31Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-29T10:47:30Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-29T10:57:06Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-29T11:02:39Z beach: jmercouris: I have no objection to that. 2021-03-29T11:05:45Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-29T11:10:32Z sm2n: beach, White_Flame: thanks 2021-03-29T11:10:57Z sm2n: function level is sufficient for what I want, I don't need the exact callsites 2021-03-29T11:11:07Z beach: Oh, then that's easy. 2021-03-29T11:11:33Z beach: Just use do-all-symbols and check whether the symbol and `(setf ,the-symbol) are FBOUND. 2021-03-29T11:13:03Z sm2n: err, maybe it will be better if I explain what I am trying to do 2021-03-29T11:13:14Z beach: Go ahead. 2021-03-29T11:13:33Z sm2n: I want to build a dependency graph of functions loaded in the current image 2021-03-29T11:14:02Z beach: I see. That's a bit harder. 2021-03-29T11:14:36Z beach: Some implementations have a WHO-CALLS function. 2021-03-29T11:14:48Z beach: And I think SLIME uses it if it exists. 2021-03-29T11:16:12Z sm2n: oh, this looks good. thanks! 2021-03-29T11:16:20Z luna_is_here quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-29T11:16:53Z beach: SB-INTROSPECT:WHO-CALLS for SBCL. 2021-03-29T11:17:42Z sm2n: yup I found it 2021-03-29T11:18:08Z luna_is_here joined #lisp 2021-03-29T11:18:50Z luna_is_here quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-29T11:19:45Z luna_is_here joined #lisp 2021-03-29T11:26:22Z puchacz quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-29T11:39:57Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-29T11:41:46Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-29T11:41:59Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-03-29T11:44:50Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-29T11:45:06Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-29T11:45:38Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-29T11:47:47Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-03-29T11:49:01Z luna_is_here quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-29T11:51:48Z luna_is_here joined #lisp 2021-03-29T11:55:23Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-29T11:55:42Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-29T11:55:59Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-29T11:58:16Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-29T12:03:45Z luna_is_here quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-29T12:04:10Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-03-29T12:05:55Z luna_is_here joined #lisp 2021-03-29T12:10:07Z zdravko61 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-29T12:10:28Z zdravko61 joined #lisp 2021-03-29T12:13:18Z OlCe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-29T12:16:23Z luna_is_here quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-29T12:18:38Z luna_is_here joined #lisp 2021-03-29T12:25:55Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-29T12:26:00Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-29T12:26:30Z luna_is_here quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-29T12:28:50Z luna_is_here joined #lisp 2021-03-29T12:43:24Z jmercouris: beach: OK, thanks 2021-03-29T12:43:57Z beach: So how do we go about it? 2021-03-29T12:45:29Z Bike: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/issues add an issue for it 2021-03-29T12:46:45Z beach: My question was more about which one of us agrees to do it. 2021-03-29T12:46:52Z Bike: oh, sorry. 2021-03-29T12:46:59Z jmercouris: I can do it 2021-03-29T12:47:01Z sp41 joined #lisp 2021-03-29T12:47:06Z beach: OK, sounds good. 2021-03-29T12:47:18Z jmercouris: I'll also make a request for Nyxt, so it should be faster to batch 2021-03-29T12:47:36Z beach: I agree. 2021-03-29T12:48:40Z motersen quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-29T12:48:52Z motersen joined #lisp 2021-03-29T12:48:53Z luna_is_here quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-29T12:50:58Z motersen quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-29T12:52:16Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-29T12:54:22Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-29T12:54:45Z motersen joined #lisp 2021-03-29T12:55:32Z motersen quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-29T12:56:49Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp 2021-03-29T12:57:04Z luna_is_here joined #lisp 2021-03-29T12:57:58Z _jrjsmrtn quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-29T13:02:24Z motersen joined #lisp 2021-03-29T13:03:46Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-29T13:04:07Z luna_is_here quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-29T13:04:24Z luna_is_here joined #lisp 2021-03-29T13:05:15Z motersen quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-29T13:05:53Z jcowan discovers that "Lisp image" does not mean what he thought it meant. 2021-03-29T13:06:50Z jcowan: first because it is dynamic, and second because it is characterized by a global object space. 2021-03-29T13:07:39Z beach: What did you think it meant before, and what do you think it means now? 2021-03-29T13:10:06Z luni quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-29T13:10:27Z jcowan: I took it to be closely analogous to "Smalltalk image" or "Interlisp sysout"; that is, a static representation of a running process. 2021-03-29T13:10:58Z beach: As saved on secondary memory, say? 2021-03-29T13:11:03Z jcowan: Just so. 2021-03-29T13:11:09Z beach: I see. 2021-03-29T13:11:31Z Sheilong joined #lisp 2021-03-29T13:11:51Z motersen joined #lisp 2021-03-29T13:11:53Z beach thinks it could also mean the perception of Lisp in people's minds. 2021-03-29T13:11:53Z jcowan: new gears are meeting in my brain with a loud CRUNCH 2021-03-29T13:12:07Z beach: I know the feeling. 2021-03-29T13:12:24Z jcowan: Oh, sure, in the sense 'the image of Lisp' 2021-03-29T13:12:30Z beach: Yes. 2021-03-29T13:12:39Z jcowan: slow, interpreted, obsolete, etc. 2021-03-29T13:12:55Z beach: Exactly! 2021-03-29T13:14:51Z motersen quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-29T13:14:58Z jcowan: On the second point, it is a very interesting formal characteristic and much wider than Lisp, the idea of a fully shared object space 2021-03-29T13:15:13Z Xach: a miracle tool that will make you better than all those averages (people of average intelligence who do not use lisp) 2021-03-29T13:15:48Z jcowan: "Better" makes me itch. I'd rather say "more efficient at certain activities". 2021-03-29T13:17:11Z beach: What would be an example of an object space that is not fully shared? Unix? 2021-03-29T13:17:29Z Xach: jcowan: incorrect. learning lisp will make you better than other people. and richer. 2021-03-29T13:17:40Z Xach: this is clearly explained in The Blub Paradox. 2021-03-29T13:17:46Z jcowan: Or else it won't. 2021-03-29T13:18:07Z beach: Heh. 2021-03-29T13:18:24Z jcowan: That was my father's universal answer to all dogmatisms. 2021-03-29T13:18:33Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-29T13:18:39Z jcowan: (he was a legal philosopher by training) 2021-03-29T13:21:06Z luna_is_here quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-29T13:22:46Z warweasle joined #lisp 2021-03-29T13:22:57Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-03-29T13:23:14Z luna_is_here joined #lisp 2021-03-29T13:24:56Z kslt1 joined #lisp 2021-03-29T13:31:13Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-29T13:31:14Z astronavt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-29T13:31:34Z astronavt joined #lisp 2021-03-29T13:33:54Z astronavt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-29T13:34:13Z luna_is_here quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-29T13:34:16Z astronavt joined #lisp 2021-03-29T13:34:34Z luna_is_here joined #lisp 2021-03-29T13:37:50Z astronavt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-29T13:38:34Z astronavt joined #lisp 2021-03-29T13:42:33Z Odin-: Where does the "Lisp in interpreted" bit come from? 2021-03-29T13:42:41Z Odin-: s/in/is/; 2021-03-29T13:43:17Z mfiano: It is a common misconception. 2021-03-29T13:43:29Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-29T13:43:49Z beach: People tend to associate "compilation" with batch processing where an executable file is created, and "interpretation" with interactive work. 2021-03-29T13:45:41Z motersen joined #lisp 2021-03-29T13:46:05Z beach: ... and since most programmers seem to have very skimpy training when it comes to how programming languages are processed, they don't see other possibilities. 2021-03-29T13:46:59Z beach: It doesn't help that more widely used programming systems such a Python are both interactive and slow. 2021-03-29T13:47:13Z motersen quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-29T13:47:43Z Odin-: Quite. 2021-03-29T13:48:16Z motersen joined #lisp 2021-03-29T13:48:49Z motersen quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-29T13:48:54Z freshmaker666 is now known as greeb 2021-03-29T13:50:50Z Odin-: It just seems odd, given that Lisp has had compilers since essentially the very start. 2021-03-29T13:51:16Z yonkunas joined #lisp 2021-03-29T13:51:26Z Odin-: But it does seem hard for many people to grasp that a single system can do both. 2021-03-29T13:51:55Z Xach: Personally speaking, I did not really understand what "compile" meant before encountering Common Lisp. 2021-03-29T13:52:18Z Xach: The DISASSEMBLE function helped me understand a little better that an interactive compiled thing was possible. 2021-03-29T13:54:55Z Odin-: Probably the same for me, though I remember reading a fair bit about how it isn't just one or the other in connection with Perl's processing model. 2021-03-29T13:57:30Z beach: Xach: So you did not take a "compilation" course? 2021-03-29T14:00:24Z aeth: Apparently it's from this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ousterhout's_dichotomy 2021-03-29T14:00:42Z aeth: From the author of Tcl, apparently. 2021-03-29T14:01:51Z aeth: Mentioned in 1994 and fully outlined in 1998, so Common Lisp was already published by then. 2021-03-29T14:03:55Z aeth: This kind of thinking is implicit in the design of Unix, though... where you paired shell with C. 2021-03-29T14:05:15Z aeth: And most popular programming languages come from the Unix world. 2021-03-29T14:07:45Z Xach: beach: I did not. 2021-03-29T14:08:08Z Odin-: And the ones that don't are treated as either curiosities (Lisp, Fortran) or silly things we've developed past (COBOL, BASIC). Funny that. 2021-03-29T14:09:06Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-03-29T14:09:35Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-29T14:12:43Z waleee-cl joined #lisp 2021-03-29T14:18:52Z beach: Xach: I see. 2021-03-29T14:27:18Z wsinatra_ joined #lisp 2021-03-29T14:27:19Z wsinatra quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-29T14:42:42Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2021-03-29T14:51:30Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-29T14:57:12Z tiwEllien joined #lisp 2021-03-29T14:57:54Z kevingal: How do you leave a message for someone with the minion? 2021-03-29T14:58:44Z jackdaniel: minion: memo for kevingal: bla bla 2021-03-29T14:58:47Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell kevingal when he/she/it next speaks. 2021-03-29T14:58:59Z kevingal: Thank you! 2021-03-29T14:58:59Z minion: kevingal, memo from jackdaniel: bla bla 2021-03-29T14:59:05Z jackdaniel: sure 2021-03-29T14:59:50Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-29T15:01:19Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-29T15:04:24Z jcowan: Of course, essentially all code is in Cobol. 2021-03-29T15:05:10Z jcowan: The original Dartmouth Basic was a compiler; I think the idea that all REPL-ish development systems are interpreters was a result of the microcomputer bottleneck. 2021-03-29T15:05:11Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-29T15:05:42Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2021-03-29T15:05:42Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-29T15:05:48Z jcowan: bytecode is normally much more compact than native code on such systems. 2021-03-29T15:06:55Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-29T15:08:51Z motersen joined #lisp 2021-03-29T15:10:02Z fitzsim: hi jcowan 2021-03-29T15:10:09Z fitzsim: jcowan: last week you were asking about a HOWTO for Common Lisp scripting that minimizes boilerplate 2021-03-29T15:10:17Z jcowan nods 2021-03-29T15:11:05Z fitzsim: jcowan: can you try out https://git.sr.ht/~fitzsim/cl-starter-script and see if it does what you want? 2021-03-29T15:11:34Z fitzsim: I happened to be working on it for fun, and seeing someone else wanting the same thing, I decided to publish it 2021-03-29T15:12:19Z fitzsim: jcowan: it's an actual working script, rather than a HOWTO 2021-03-29T15:12:59Z fitzsim: I'm hoping you can paste the clone && run one-liner and it'll work for you, if you already have your operating system's SBCL or CLISP installed 2021-03-29T15:13:06Z Demosthe1ex joined #lisp 2021-03-29T15:15:27Z srandon111: hello all, can somebody explain to me why by default lisp is case insensitive for functions ? 2021-03-29T15:15:30Z jcowan: I do, no worries there 2021-03-29T15:15:39Z srandon111: and if something you do genrally change as setting ? 2021-03-29T15:15:53Z beach: srandon111: Lisp is not case insensitive. 2021-03-29T15:16:11Z Demosthenex quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-29T15:16:14Z jcowan: srandon111: BECAUSE LISP GOES BACK TO THE TIME WHEN COMPUTERS OFTEN COULDN'T DO LOWER CASE. 2021-03-29T15:16:15Z beach: srandon111: And it has nothing to do with functions. It has to do with how the reader creates symbols. 2021-03-29T15:16:18Z jackdaniel: some people change it the readtable case, but that's not common 2021-03-29T15:17:03Z jackdaniel: if you care about how symbols are printed, just (setf *print-case* :downcase) in the repl 2021-03-29T15:17:51Z jcowan: beach: multiplex negatio farblondiet: you got one too many negations there. 2021-03-29T15:17:58Z beach: Ouch. 2021-03-29T15:18:07Z jackdaniel: srandon111: i.e you could set the readtable case to :preserve, but that's not a good idea 2021-03-29T15:18:23Z beach: srandon111: And, as I often explain, it is usually pretty pointless to ask "why" Lisp is the way it is, because the explanation is often just historical. 2021-03-29T15:18:35Z jackdaniel: because then you'd need to use lisp functions like (LIST (CAR foo)) 2021-03-29T15:18:52Z jcowan: It's an extremely common performance error: our poor monkey brains don't seem to be good at how many negations there are in a sentence. 2021-03-29T15:18:55Z beach: jcowan: It would be an exaggeration to say that I am not unhungry now. 2021-03-29T15:19:09Z jcowan: "I don't want you to think I'm not incoherent." 2021-03-29T15:19:57Z jcowan: In the end all explanations are historical, and it seemed to me that srandon111 was asking for one: "Why is this the default?" 2021-03-29T15:20:21Z jcowan: Biologists say: "Everything is the way it is because it *got* that way." 2021-03-29T15:20:28Z beach: Probably again for historical reasons. 2021-03-29T15:20:52Z phoe: biology is 100% historical reasons 2021-03-29T15:21:14Z phoe: "it used to work in the past, if it still works then it means that the folks who got this the first time reproduced well enough" 2021-03-29T15:21:44Z jcowan: Which is true of any evolved system, emphatically including Lisp. 2021-03-29T15:21:49Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-29T15:21:54Z phoe: "...or that there were no meteorites hitting Earth along the way yanno" 2021-03-29T15:22:11Z jcowan nods 2021-03-29T15:23:14Z phoe: conscious evolution of software systems is a little bit better than blind evolution because we can actually anticipate meteors and program defensively around them 2021-03-29T15:23:30Z phoe: so if we're lucky our Lisp programs may survive longer than us in case of another cataclysmic event 2021-03-29T15:24:49Z jcowan: There's a tendency for people outside the CL community to look at the 1500+ pages of weirdness and think "Oh, this is a research system where everything and the kitchen sink was put in because why not." 2021-03-29T15:25:32Z jcowan: And then (being in the grip of Geek Explainer Syndrome) I have to explain that no, everything is there because it once served a severely practical purpose. Except the Roman numerals. 2021-03-29T15:26:00Z fitzsim: haha 2021-03-29T15:26:20Z fitzsim: Roman numerals were added just for fun 2021-03-29T15:26:49Z fitzsim: for me, reading Cltl was great for understanding why everything was added 2021-03-29T15:27:21Z Nilby: Roman numeral printing is quite practical for hierarchical list numbering. 2021-03-29T15:27:27Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-29T15:27:46Z jcowan: True, provided the numbers don't get too big. 2021-03-29T15:28:55Z fitzsim: yeah, there's a note about that (just checked) 2021-03-29T15:29:02Z fitzsim: "nearly all implementations produce Roman numerals only for integers in the range 1 to 3999, inclusive." 2021-03-29T15:29:42Z fitzsim: some fancy ones could do up to 4999 though 2021-03-29T15:30:13Z Demosthe1ex is now known as Demosthenex 2021-03-29T15:30:35Z phoe: (format nil "~@R" 4000) 2021-03-29T15:30:41Z phoe: hmmm 2021-03-29T15:30:51Z jcowan: Although with Unicode we can use the combining macron to get much larger numbers. 2021-03-29T15:31:48Z jcowan: actually the combining overline 2021-03-29T15:32:10Z fitzsim: sounds like there's a need for a new library 2021-03-29T15:35:17Z fitzsim: oh, I was joking, but, https://stackoverflow.com/questions/45844555/how-to-print-roman-numerals-greater-than-3-999 2021-03-29T15:35:49Z hendursaga quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-29T15:36:17Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-03-29T15:36:57Z TMA: alternatively it might just return (IIII) or (IV) ... with unicode CIIIIↃ or CIVↃ 2021-03-29T15:37:20Z OlCe joined #lisp 2021-03-29T15:37:41Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-29T15:38:14Z jcowan: True 2021-03-29T15:38:23Z jcowan: X̅X̅X̅I̅I̅DCCLXVII = 32767 2021-03-29T15:38:49Z jcowan: that turned "c" looks very wrong 2021-03-29T15:39:42Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-03-29T15:40:53Z jcowan: CIↃ isn't that great either, because the C is in modern style and the Ↄ is in archaic style. 2021-03-29T15:41:21Z ecraven: hm.. maybe it's time to go and look for another font, patching bitmap terminus for everything isn't fun any longer, even if it is the best font I've found... are there outline fonts that are as crisp as proper bitmap fonts on normal dpi displays? 2021-03-29T15:41:55Z supercoven joined #lisp 2021-03-29T15:41:56Z TMA: CIↃ is originally just greek phi Φ (D is just IↃ joined, similary L is half psi Ψ) 2021-03-29T15:42:43Z Odin- wrote a program that used symbols in futhark runes at some point. 2021-03-29T15:43:03Z beach: I like it! 2021-03-29T15:43:56Z supercoven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-29T15:44:56Z gaze__ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-29T15:47:10Z gaze__ joined #lisp 2021-03-29T15:48:40Z TMA: (the pattern is even more prevalent... V is half od X; all told, the roman numerals consist of letters IVXLΨDΦ or more commonly IVXLCDM) 2021-03-29T15:48:51Z jcowan: I think Greeks still use Greek numerals where we use Roman ones 2021-03-29T15:49:00Z Nilby: It's nice that (= (+ ೧೨೩೪ ५६७८) (+ 1234 ５６７８)) , but a little sad that (+ ⅠⅡⅢⅣ 5678) doesn't work. 2021-03-29T15:49:02Z jcowan: the alpha = 1, beta = 2 etc. etc. 2021-03-29T15:49:56Z jcowan: In general, Unicode distinguishes between digits and decimal digits, and place-value arithmetic only works on the decimal digits. 2021-03-29T15:54:26Z jcowan: Traditional Tamil numbers used the "3 100 4 10 5" pattern, but later a proper zero was added. 2021-03-29T15:57:33Z wsinatra_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-29T15:58:33Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-03-29T15:59:45Z mfiano: ecraven: You might like Iosevka (I switched to that from terminus a few years ago) 2021-03-29T16:00:06Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-29T16:00:08Z phantomics quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2021-03-29T16:00:27Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-29T16:00:34Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2021-03-29T16:09:38Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-29T16:10:06Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-29T16:12:04Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-29T16:22:03Z OlCe quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-29T16:25:56Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-29T16:26:15Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-29T16:27:16Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Quit: brb) 2021-03-29T16:32:01Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp 2021-03-29T16:32:19Z matryoshka: jcowan: lisp images are not just a dump of the environment table and the state of running processes to disk? 2021-03-29T16:32:36Z matryoshka: where/how did you find out about this? I've been trying to figure out the workings of lisp images for a while. 2021-03-29T16:34:33Z OlCe joined #lisp 2021-03-29T16:36:04Z beach: matryoshka: I think jcowan is saying that by "Lisp image" it is often meant the live execution environment when the Common Lisp system is running. 2021-03-29T16:36:48Z beach: matryoshka: As opposed to the file on disk that, when loaded, creates that image. 2021-03-29T16:37:15Z phoe: then what do we call the "frozen" form of the image, created via things like save-lisp-and-die? 2021-03-29T16:37:20Z phoe: a core file? 2021-03-29T16:37:43Z beach: That would be SBCL specific. 2021-03-29T16:37:51Z phantomics joined #lisp 2021-03-29T16:38:03Z beach: matryoshka: Though, if you have any questions about how a running Common Lisp system works, please do not hesitate to ask. 2021-03-29T16:38:16Z phoe: beach: yes, that's SBCL-specific; what's the general term? 2021-03-29T16:38:27Z beach: No idea. Sorry. 2021-03-29T16:38:29Z Odin-: Is there a general term? 2021-03-29T16:38:55Z warweasle is now known as warweasle_workin 2021-03-29T16:39:00Z MrtnDk[m]: We can make one up, I guess? 2021-03-29T16:39:07Z Bike: a dumped image? 2021-03-29T16:39:08Z beach: "image template" maybe? 2021-03-29T16:39:09Z phoe: the docstring for uiop:dump-image says, "Dump an image of the current Lisp environment at pathname FILENAME, with various options." 2021-03-29T16:39:16Z jcowan: beach: Specifically, that's the meaning given in the CLHS glossary 2021-03-29T16:39:33Z OlCe quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-29T16:39:37Z phoe: Rainer states at https://stackoverflow.com/questions/480083/what-is-a-lisp-image that an image is usually a file which is a memory dump of a Lisp system 2021-03-29T16:39:42Z jcowan: "dumped/saved/frozen image" would make sense to me 2021-03-29T16:40:03Z beach: jcowan: Aha, I hadn't realized that. 2021-03-29T16:40:10Z fitzsim: cl-launch uses the term "dumped image" and tries to support many Common Lisp implementations 2021-03-29T16:40:32Z phoe: CCL consists of a "heap image", a "lisp kernel", and an "interface database" 2021-03-29T16:40:32Z beach: phoe: Rainer is trumped by the glossary. 2021-03-29T16:41:22Z Odin-: phoe: That definition is contradicted by a lot of usage. 2021-03-29T16:41:30Z jcowan: That is not, however, necessarily the correct definition in contexts other than the CLHS. 2021-03-29T16:41:42Z jcowan: "correct" in the sense of "most useful" 2021-03-29T16:41:47Z beach: Of course. 2021-03-29T16:41:48Z phoe: beach: Odin-: yes, I can see that 2021-03-29T16:42:06Z _death: a live image is called a video :) 2021-03-29T16:43:18Z Odin-: I'm fairly sure I've seen references in modern documentation to "loading a system into the image" in the "an image is a live thing" sense. 2021-03-29T16:43:19Z phoe: so I'd say that around #lisp, an image, depending on context, can mean either the complete live state of a running Lisp system or its file-dumped form that can be restored back into a live Lisp system 2021-03-29T16:43:42Z phoe: because it seems to me that the term is used both ways 2021-03-29T16:44:02Z phoe: and whenever clarification is needed, "live image" and "dumped image" work well I guess 2021-03-29T16:44:07Z jcowan: When I loosely used the term "raise an exception" instead of "signal a condition" the other day, you (correctly but somewhat pedantically) corrected me. That got me to wondering: definitely "signal" is better than "raise" in the Lisp context, but I am not sure that the divergence between "condition (object)" and "exception (object)" carries any special meaning. 2021-03-29T16:44:08Z Odin-: The thing is, the _obvious_ thing to do is to consider a file that can be loaded to (more or less) restore a given image to effectively _be_ that image... 2021-03-29T16:44:38Z phoe: jcowan: actually 2021-03-29T16:44:44Z Odin-: jcowan: I think in that case the issue is that Common Lisp doesn't have anything it calls exceptions. 2021-03-29T16:44:45Z beach: jcowan: It didn't used to, but phoe introduced the difference. 2021-03-29T16:44:58Z beach: use to 2021-03-29T16:45:04Z MrtnDk[m]: _death: or a gif ... 2021-03-29T16:45:06Z phoe: conditions wind while exceptions unwind 2021-03-29T16:45:10Z phoe: that's the big difference 2021-03-29T16:45:23Z beach: phoe: But you made that up, right? 2021-03-29T16:45:28Z phoe: made what up 2021-03-29T16:45:44Z beach: phoe: The distinction you just mentioned. 2021-03-29T16:45:46Z Odin-: beach: Sounds like an observation, more than anything. 2021-03-29T16:45:47Z phoe: no 2021-03-29T16:45:52Z beach: Oh? 2021-03-29T16:46:04Z beach: phoe: Where in the literature did you find those definitions? 2021-03-29T16:46:06Z phoe: signaling a CL condition winds the stack further, raising/throwing an exception usually unwinds the stack 2021-03-29T16:46:20Z beach: Says who if it isn't you? 2021-03-29T16:46:21Z phoe: at least the most popular exception systems work that way 2021-03-29T16:46:22Z Odin-: I.e., systems based on exceptions do the unwinding, while CL ... yeah, exactly. 2021-03-29T16:46:32Z jcowan: Well, it winds the stack until and unless it decides to unwind it. 2021-03-29T16:46:48Z phoe: the former says CLHS, the latter says the way C++/Java/Python do exceptions 2021-03-29T16:47:00Z Odin-: jcowan: True, but the fact that it doesn't immediately unwind it is the difference in question.... 2021-03-29T16:47:10Z jcowan: I prefer to talk about termination vs. resumption semantics. 2021-03-29T16:47:22Z phoe: this difference in behavior is why I'm personally picky about "exceptions" in Lisp 2021-03-29T16:47:23Z zaquest quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-29T16:47:27Z beach: phoe: What if a new language uses "condition" for the unwinding type? 2021-03-29T16:47:35Z beach: phoe: Who would you complain to? 2021-03-29T16:47:41Z phoe: thank goodness we don't need to care about this at the moment 2021-03-29T16:47:49Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-03-29T16:47:52Z CrazyPython joined #lisp 2021-03-29T16:48:08Z beach: phoe: My point is that you made up the difference and named it. I like it, but you did make it up. We do that all the time. Be proud of it. 2021-03-29T16:48:12Z MrtnDk[m]: 😁👍 2021-03-29T16:48:16Z phoe: oh 2021-03-29T16:48:21Z phoe: okay 2021-03-29T16:48:26Z Odin-: 'made up' or 'noticed'. 2021-03-29T16:48:51Z beach: Odin-: Made it up, because there was no such semantics attached to the names before. 2021-03-29T16:49:23Z MrtnDk[m]: Cool. Well done phoe 2021-03-29T16:49:37Z Odin-: beach: I get where you're coming from, but I also get why someone wouldn't think of it as having invented something. 2021-03-29T16:50:07Z beach: As Frank Zappa says: I for one care less for them. 2021-03-29T16:50:15Z jcowan: Scheme has exactly the the same resumption semantics as CL, but uses "exception handler" vs. "condition object". 2021-03-29T16:50:53Z jcowan: The beginning of science is the drawing of precise distinctions. 2021-03-29T16:51:01Z jcowan: (mathematics, too) 2021-03-29T16:51:22Z beach: Precisely my point. And naming those distinctions is important. 2021-03-29T16:52:51Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-03-29T16:52:55Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-29T16:55:25Z Bike: does scheme use continuations to resume? i mean, if there's an error, and the handler resumes to somewhere, does that unwind and rewind the stack in a way dynamic-wind deals with? 2021-03-29T16:55:26Z OlCe joined #lisp 2021-03-29T16:55:51Z _death: phoe: do you know about Structured Exception Handling (SEH)? 2021-03-29T16:55:57Z phoe: _death: I do 2021-03-29T16:56:34Z Bike: whereas in lisp, resuming an exception is generally actually unwinding under the hood 2021-03-29T16:56:37Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-29T16:56:38Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-29T16:56:58Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-29T16:57:00Z Bike: not entirely under the hood, since you can observe unwinding with unwind-protect 2021-03-29T16:57:10Z _death: phoe: well, there some user code can run before the stack is unwound 2021-03-29T16:57:38Z Bike: "resuming an exception"... restarting i mean 2021-03-29T16:58:06Z phoe: yes, that's one thing - it's not standard C++ though, it's a Windows sort of extension 2021-03-29T16:58:19Z _death: phoe: right, it has nothing to do with C++ 2021-03-29T16:59:21Z jackdaniel: I'm wounded in the stack 2021-03-29T16:59:44Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-29T17:00:18Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-29T17:01:57Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-29T17:03:51Z gitgood joined #lisp 2021-03-29T17:05:24Z phoe: wounding the stack sounds like a pretty tough condition 2021-03-29T17:05:58Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-29T17:09:20Z matryoshka: beach: hmm. I see 2021-03-29T17:09:20Z matryoshka: So what exactly makes a live lisp system live? 2021-03-29T17:09:24Z matryoshka: Is it due to the nature of eval? 2021-03-29T17:09:26Z imuo joined #lisp 2021-03-29T17:09:35Z phoe: what do you mean, "live" 2021-03-29T17:09:42Z phoe: you mean that it is in RAM and capable of executing stuff? 2021-03-29T17:10:00Z matryoshka: Being able to redefine functions while the lisp system is running, for example. 2021-03-29T17:10:21Z phoe: it's just design - in this case, late binding 2021-03-29T17:10:42Z MrtnDk[m]: matryoshka That and apply, I guess? 2021-03-29T17:10:42Z phoe: if you execute a function named FOO then you reach the actual code through the symbol FOO 2021-03-29T17:11:34Z phoe: so if you modify the place that the symbol FOO points you to, bam, you have just redefined that code for all pieces of code that reach that code through the symbol FOO 2021-03-29T17:11:42Z phoe: that's all 2021-03-29T17:11:45Z matryoshka: Yes, I figured it was like that. 2021-03-29T17:11:47Z matryoshka: Thank you. 2021-03-29T17:12:49Z MrtnDk[m]: phoe You can do that in see also though, right? 2021-03-29T17:12:57Z phoe: of course you can 2021-03-29T17:13:05Z MrtnDk[m]: s/see/C/ 2021-03-29T17:13:54Z MrtnDk[m]: I don't remember how, but I think I did do it in the past. 2021-03-29T17:16:03Z Odin-: Function pointers, one presumes. 2021-03-29T17:16:06Z phoe: get yourself an arra--- yes 2021-03-29T17:16:38Z phoe: make yourself a hash table from strings to structs, ensure that one of those struct fields is a function pointer, replace it via standard assignment of struct fields 2021-03-29T17:16:50Z phoe: congratulations, you have just implemented a very crude Lisp package! 2021-03-29T17:18:28Z phoe: as long as all callers go through this struct indirection, you can atomically replace function pointers for all of your system 2021-03-29T17:19:30Z Shinmera: why bother with structs? Just put a raw function poitner there 2021-03-29T17:20:04Z _death: syscalls and interrupt vector tables existed for many years ;) 2021-03-29T17:20:07Z phoe: if you only need functions then sure; I was thinking of structs that have things like variable/function/class bindings and such 2021-03-29T17:20:23Z phoe: but if we don't want fully featured symbols then just function pointers is enough 2021-03-29T17:20:42Z Odin-: _death: I take it you don't work on microcontrollers, then? 2021-03-29T17:21:07Z MrtnDk[m]: phoe I wonder, if that is how, Emacs Lisp is implemented. 2021-03-29T17:21:19Z phoe: #emacs might be a good place to ask mayhaps 2021-03-29T17:21:40Z phoe: I never studied emacs internals too hard myself 2021-03-29T17:21:44Z MrtnDk[m]: Just thinking aloud. 2021-03-29T17:22:19Z astronavt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-29T17:22:43Z astronavt joined #lisp 2021-03-29T17:23:07Z MrtnDk[m]: I have been considering what it would take to implement a really basic Lisp-like thing in C. 2021-03-29T17:24:48Z jackdaniel: there is quite a few lisp-like languages (in C too) 2021-03-29T17:25:15Z jackdaniel: just type "lisp in c" in your favourite search engine 2021-03-29T17:25:32Z jackdaniel: you'll see lisp-in-c, lisp in less than 200 lines of c, learn c - build your own lisp yada yada ,) 2021-03-29T17:25:39Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-29T17:25:54Z phoe: make a lisp 2021-03-29T17:25:59Z phoe: that's a somewhat famous one 2021-03-29T17:26:12Z aap: i have a somewhat complete lisp 1.5 https://github.com/aap/l15 2021-03-29T17:26:17Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-29T17:27:08Z phadthai: and of course https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyoto_Common_Lisp and derivatives are C implementations (including ECL) 2021-03-29T17:27:17Z _death: aap: does it have ERRSET? 2021-03-29T17:27:52Z aap: no 2021-03-29T17:28:13Z jackdaniel: well, kyoto is not lisp-like thing in c, it is lisp 2021-03-29T17:28:13Z aap: it kinda is a toy lisp, but i also tried to implement most of the actual lisp 1.5 2021-03-29T17:28:56Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-29T17:31:07Z _death: aap: hmm, it seems lisp 1.5 called it ERRORSET.. so Gabriel's paper has a typo ;) 2021-03-29T17:37:22Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-03-29T17:42:19Z Odin-: MrtnDk[m]: Not much. 2021-03-29T17:44:04Z Odin-: The more interesting question, in my view, is whether you can build a useful Lisp system on some of the more constrained systems that are in use nowadays. 2021-03-29T17:45:37Z wsinatra_ joined #lisp 2021-03-29T17:45:50Z wsinatra quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-29T17:49:42Z ecraven: mfiano: just tried that with antialias=false, it's atrocious ;) like all non-bitmap fonts 2021-03-29T17:50:46Z Odin-: What's the resolution? 2021-03-29T17:52:42Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-29T18:00:39Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-29T18:01:47Z curtosis joined #lisp 2021-03-29T18:02:43Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-29T18:05:56Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-03-29T18:10:00Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-29T18:10:18Z gitgood quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-29T18:11:57Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-29T18:14:28Z mason joined #lisp 2021-03-29T18:16:48Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-29T18:21:59Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-29T18:23:38Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-29T18:24:12Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2021-03-29T18:24:40Z srandon111 quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-29T18:24:45Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-29T18:25:23Z VincentVega joined #lisp 2021-03-29T18:29:02Z yitzi joined #lisp 2021-03-29T18:30:16Z White_Flame: Odin-: useful lisp system, or useful common lisp system? 2021-03-29T18:31:13Z White_Flame: when RAM is measured in KB, the footprint of just the CL symbols can be challenging 2021-03-29T18:31:29Z Odin-: Lisp. CL is too big. 2021-03-29T18:31:33Z gitgood joined #lisp 2021-03-29T18:31:34Z Odin-: Heck, ISLISP is probably too big. 2021-03-29T18:32:02Z Odin- has been messing around with uLisp, which is on the periphery of 'useful'. 2021-03-29T18:32:03Z jcowan: Odin-: you might want to take that question to ##lisp 2021-03-29T18:32:14Z White_Flame: of course there's picolisp as well 2021-03-29T18:32:22Z jcowan: And tinyscheme 2021-03-29T18:35:54Z OlCe quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-29T18:38:28Z _death: Odin-: I played with ulisp a month ago or so (on an m5stickc), but indeed it's a bit limited (no compilation/macros).. I think something like a vm running clisp's bytecode or a subset of it could be nice 2021-03-29T18:44:42Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-03-29T18:44:48Z yitzi_ joined #lisp 2021-03-29T18:45:46Z yitzi_ quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-29T18:47:58Z yitzi quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-29T18:50:36Z jackdanie1 joined #lisp 2021-03-29T18:51:20Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-29T18:51:39Z jackdaniel quit (Quit: ()) 2021-03-29T18:51:46Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-29T18:53:27Z jackdanie1 is now known as jackdaniel 2021-03-29T18:55:59Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-29T18:58:59Z wsinatra_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-29T18:59:42Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-03-29T19:05:30Z sxmx quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-03-29T19:08:27Z warweasle_workin is now known as warweasle 2021-03-29T19:13:19Z lotuseater quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-03-29T19:22:31Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2021-03-29T19:22:36Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-29T19:23:41Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-03-29T19:38:53Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-29T19:41:46Z flazh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-29T19:42:06Z flazh joined #lisp 2021-03-29T19:42:11Z andrew2 joined #lisp 2021-03-29T19:42:31Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2021-03-29T19:42:58Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-29T19:45:35Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2021-03-29T19:46:10Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-29T19:46:48Z wsinatra quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-29T19:50:20Z andrew2 quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-29T19:56:12Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-03-29T19:56:17Z Faed is now known as Fade 2021-03-29T19:57:41Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-29T19:58:21Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2021-03-29T19:59:20Z Spawns_Carpeting quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-29T19:59:34Z Spawns_Carpeting joined #lisp 2021-03-29T20:08:22Z MrtnDk[m]: uLisp or μLisp? 2021-03-29T20:09:17Z jonatack quit (Quit: jonatack) 2021-03-29T20:09:26Z warweasle quit (Quit: later. Going home.) 2021-03-29T20:11:20Z lotuseater joined #lisp 2021-03-29T20:13:55Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-29T20:16:14Z moon-child: Odin-: I'm a fan of s7 scheme 2021-03-29T20:16:24Z moon-child: Odin-: there's also sectorforth, for the truly constrained systems 2021-03-29T20:17:06Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-29T20:17:33Z Odin-: MrtnDk[m]: See http://www.ulisp.com - but as noted, this is getting off topic. 2021-03-29T20:18:19Z MrtnDk[m]: Odin- can you invite me to ##lisp ? 2021-03-29T20:18:33Z Odin-: moon-child: Well, of course, that's something Forth excels at... 2021-03-29T20:18:53Z Odin-: It requires invitation? 2021-03-29T20:19:03Z MrtnDk[m]: wait, it might not be bridged 2021-03-29T20:19:42Z GFP2242 joined #lisp 2021-03-29T20:20:24Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-29T20:23:40Z flazh quit (Quit: flazh) 2021-03-29T20:24:06Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-29T20:25:08Z flazh joined #lisp 2021-03-29T20:30:15Z Spawns_Carpeting quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-29T20:30:36Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-29T20:31:09Z GFP2242 quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-03-29T20:31:32Z Spawns_Carpeting joined #lisp 2021-03-29T20:33:52Z phoe: it does not require an invitation 2021-03-29T20:34:01Z phoe: just /join ##lisp works for me 2021-03-29T20:37:27Z klltkr joined #lisp 2021-03-29T20:41:33Z kenran joined #lisp 2021-03-29T20:45:25Z tomaw quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-29T20:50:35Z yonkunas quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-29T20:50:50Z tomaw joined #lisp 2021-03-29T20:51:15Z Inline quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-29T20:51:58Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-29T20:54:44Z MrtnDk[m]: phoe: I'm on Matrix. I'm not sure how to join an IRC room, even if it is bridged and has no invitation requirement. 2021-03-29T20:56:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: MrtnDk[m]: I think there's just a naming convention 2021-03-29T20:56:05Z phoe: hmmm, https://gist.github.com/fstab/ce805d3001600ac147b79d413668770d says, "join the room #freenode_##lisp:matrix.org" 2021-03-29T20:56:32Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-29T20:56:49Z snits quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-29T20:57:29Z MrtnDk[m]: phoe Thanks, that link seems to work. 2021-03-29T20:57:32Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-03-29T20:57:58Z phoe: yay! a bit of googling solves the problem 2021-03-29T20:59:16Z Odin- gets the distinct impression that that's not a genuine expression of joy. 2021-03-29T21:00:32Z snits joined #lisp 2021-03-29T21:00:41Z phoe: no, it actually is 2021-03-29T21:00:46Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-29T21:01:13Z phoe: a person who can find a solution in ten seconds can sometimes save someone ten minutes 2021-03-29T21:01:17Z MrtnDk[m]: Sorry, I often suck at searchxing. Even at coming up with the idea to do it some times. 2021-03-29T21:01:37Z Odin-: I'm glad. Because it actually seems to be getting rarer and rarer that searching works like it should. :p 2021-03-29T21:02:20Z MrtnDk[m]: That is true phoe. Sometimes thou can save them even more time than that. 2021-03-29T21:02:53Z MrtnDk[m]: back to Lisp? 😎 2021-03-29T21:03:03Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-29T21:03:24Z phoe: nope, back to non-Lisp things for the evening 2021-03-29T21:05:33Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-29T21:05:35Z MrtnDk[m]: phoe Thank thee. I'm not sure if my message in the other room got through. 2021-03-29T21:05:40Z phoe: I could see it 2021-03-29T21:07:00Z mfiano left #lisp 2021-03-29T21:11:46Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-29T21:12:38Z madage joined #lisp 2021-03-29T21:12:55Z Inline quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-29T21:16:17Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-03-29T21:16:46Z zaquest quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-29T21:19:21Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-29T21:19:57Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-29T21:20:02Z surabax_ joined #lisp 2021-03-29T21:20:07Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-29T21:20:26Z mason: Anyone know if https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/vsedach/cliki2 is suffering a temporary error, or some more permanent state? 2021-03-29T21:20:27Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-29T21:20:58Z phoe: mason: asking now on #common-lisp.net 2021-03-29T21:21:08Z mason: phoe: Channel or IRC net? 2021-03-29T21:21:18Z phoe: channel on Freenode 2021-03-29T21:22:45Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-03-29T21:23:38Z surabax quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-29T21:23:46Z kenran quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-29T21:24:00Z Inline quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-29T21:24:27Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-03-29T21:25:46Z cchristiansen joined #lisp 2021-03-29T21:26:26Z nullman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-29T21:27:01Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp 2021-03-29T21:27:50Z nullman joined #lisp 2021-03-29T21:28:18Z tiwEllien quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-29T21:31:33Z curtosis is now known as curtosis[away] 2021-03-29T21:32:03Z curtosis[away] quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-29T21:33:35Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-29T21:33:45Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-29T21:34:08Z sxmx joined #lisp 2021-03-29T21:34:21Z MrtnDk[m]: #freenode_#common-lisp.net I'm guessing, if it be bridged. 2021-03-29T21:35:21Z MrtnDk[m]: * On the matrix it might be room #freenode_#common-lisp.net I'm guessing, if it be bridged. 2021-03-29T21:36:31Z lottaquestions quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2021-03-29T21:36:50Z lottaquestions joined #lisp 2021-03-29T21:39:52Z mason: MrtnDk[m]: Ah, I don't use Matrix. I was able to find it more simply. 2021-03-29T21:40:45Z etimmons: Mrtn Dk: yes (coming from a fellow Matrix user on that channel). Also, my understanding is that all of Freenode is "bridged" 2021-03-29T21:47:21Z surabax_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-29T21:52:22Z pve quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-29T21:53:10Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-29T21:56:12Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-29T22:01:50Z nij joined #lisp 2021-03-29T22:02:22Z nij: Hello! I recently started writing a personal project using emacs-lisp. It crashed me on performence so I wonder if I should switch back to common lisp. 2021-03-29T22:02:57Z nij: For now, my database is just a folder with ~7500 files. Each file contains one lisp list. 2021-03-29T22:03:50Z nij: I have never dealt with a database before, so I must be doing something wrong. But in any case, the performence is very bad. It is not clear in my head when I should read/write from/to the database, or when I should just use the variable to hold things. 2021-03-29T22:04:30Z nij: I wonder if switching back to common-lisp would solve this problem. I've heard of the power of CLOS, but have never experienced it in depth. That's my situation. So.. any advice would be appreciated. 2021-03-29T22:04:34Z nij: Thanks! 2021-03-29T22:13:04Z indathrone quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-29T22:14:46Z phoe: nij: how big is your database in total, in kilobytes/megabytes? 2021-03-29T22:15:11Z nij: ~2MB 2021-03-29T22:15:34Z nij: I expect it to grow 1.5M/year. 2021-03-29T22:15:52Z phoe: no need to stretch it across so many files 2021-03-29T22:16:12Z phoe: it's relatively tiny and you could even hold everything in memory 2021-03-29T22:16:47Z nij: But I need it to stay after the program is halted. 2021-03-29T22:17:23Z phoe: no no; keep the data in memory for access, but also write a backup copy of it to disk 2021-03-29T22:17:27Z Odin- pokes at SQLite. 2021-03-29T22:18:05Z phoe: also, yes, sqlite - unless you'd like to try a pure-CL solution of sorts, or try to reinvent the wheel for some personal learning 2021-03-29T22:18:41Z nij: what's a pure-cl solution!? 2021-03-29T22:19:31Z phoe: e.g. https://github.com/hanshuebner/bknr-datastore 2021-03-29T22:19:35Z phoe: see https://common-lisp.net/project/bknr/pdf/datastore-manual.pdf 2021-03-29T22:21:04Z wooden quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-29T22:21:16Z wooden joined #lisp 2021-03-29T22:21:17Z wooden quit (Changing host) 2021-03-29T22:21:17Z wooden joined #lisp 2021-03-29T22:23:40Z nij: i see. sounds like mito 2021-03-29T22:23:52Z nij: i guess it's time for me to seriously learn to use db.. 2021-03-29T22:26:13Z phoe: mito is actually more than just a DB or DB interface 2021-03-29T22:26:34Z nij: it's clos+db, right? 2021-03-29T22:26:34Z phoe: it is an ORM software which is something even more different 2021-03-29T22:27:10Z phoe: do you know what is a relational database, and how its data differs from object-oriented data? 2021-03-29T22:27:27Z phoe: if not, you should - and then you'll know that ORM is a toolkit that attempts to bridge that difference 2021-03-29T22:28:22Z nij: relational dbs are based on spreadsheets, and oo data are lots of classes,instances, and slots? 2021-03-29T22:28:53Z moon-child: 'relational dbs are based on spreadsheets' wat 2021-03-29T22:29:11Z moon-child: data representation is slightly similar, and problem domain has some overlap, but the two have wildly different roles 2021-03-29T22:29:13Z nij: moon-child: i dunno what im talking about. this's just my impression. 2021-03-29T22:29:53Z moon-child: spreadsheet is end-user data flow & analysis. Relational db is relational algebra (=academia goodness) + long-term data storage & representation 2021-03-29T22:30:42Z nij: @@ i dunno what that means 2021-03-29T22:30:48Z nij: and when i read wikipedia, idk either.. 2021-03-29T22:30:49Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-29T22:31:05Z moon-child: dunno what what means? 2021-03-29T22:34:48Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-29T22:37:00Z OlCe joined #lisp 2021-03-29T22:37:59Z casual_friday quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-29T22:38:08Z Helmholtz joined #lisp 2021-03-29T22:39:33Z casual_friday joined #lisp 2021-03-29T22:39:42Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-29T22:45:01Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-03-29T22:45:16Z White_Flame: nij: for something that's going to stay under 10MB for years from now, a simple persistence to log file and keeping all of it in RAM would be fine :-P 2021-03-29T22:46:05Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-29T22:46:32Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-29T22:49:44Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-29T22:56:00Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-29T22:56:46Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-03-29T22:57:36Z lotuseater quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-03-29T22:57:51Z markasoftware: the simplest thing to do is just maintain it all in memory under a single top level variable, then use cl-marshal or similar to serialize it to a single file on disk periodically 2021-03-29T22:58:46Z markasoftware: as long as the D of ACID isn't super important to you 2021-03-29T23:01:48Z Xach: writing a log can be helpful for the durability. 2021-03-29T23:04:27Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-03-29T23:07:53Z igemnace joined #lisp 2021-03-29T23:13:32Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-29T23:16:19Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-29T23:16:58Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-29T23:26:43Z jcowan: The main advantage of SQLite in this context is that it works very hard to either persist your data or fail. 2021-03-29T23:29:25Z jcowan: If you have an easy sqlite setup, then "INSERT INTO log VALUES (?)" with ? bound to the line to be logged is just about as easy as writing to a file. 2021-03-29T23:31:11Z OlCe quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-29T23:33:46Z akoana joined #lisp 2021-03-29T23:36:23Z long4mud joined #lisp 2021-03-29T23:41:46Z Xach: yes, it would be much safer and more reliable. but if you go the diy route, a log is an easy step beyond stashing all the data from memory periodically. 2021-03-29T23:43:15Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-03-29T23:43:15Z Xach: and by log, i don't mean syslog things, i mean writing out data records, as in "write-ahead logs" or "commit logs" 2021-03-29T23:43:45Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-03-29T23:43:50Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-03-29T23:56:50Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-29T23:59:31Z nij: White_Flame: that's a nice rule of thumb! thanks :) 2021-03-30T00:00:04Z White_Flame: but of course, heed the advice of logging safely 2021-03-30T00:00:33Z White_Flame: and again, this is only if SQL is not worth learning for the scale of your project 2021-03-30T00:00:54Z nij: got it 2021-03-30T00:00:56Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-30T00:00:59Z nij: thanks for all advice ;) 2021-03-30T00:13:08Z notzmv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-30T00:16:35Z curtosis[away] joined #lisp 2021-03-30T00:16:38Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-30T00:18:46Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-03-30T00:19:23Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-30T00:22:33Z nij quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-03-30T00:23:24Z Alfr quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-30T00:31:16Z curtosis[away] quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-30T00:38:00Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-30T00:46:56Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-03-30T01:15:09Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-30T01:17:04Z Jachy joined #lisp 2021-03-30T01:26:17Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-30T01:28:16Z wxie joined #lisp 2021-03-30T01:28:30Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-03-30T01:28:40Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-30T01:29:58Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-30T01:30:37Z sxmx quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-03-30T01:41:08Z semz joined #lisp 2021-03-30T01:41:08Z semz quit (Changing host) 2021-03-30T01:41:08Z semz joined #lisp 2021-03-30T01:43:48Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-30T01:48:38Z notzmv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-30T01:53:59Z akoana left #lisp 2021-03-30T01:57:24Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-30T02:01:31Z CrazyPython quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-30T02:03:40Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-30T02:07:11Z copec: What is the database library that yall tend towards these days? 2021-03-30T02:07:33Z aeth: postmodern (for postgresql) was the general recommendation back in the day. Idk if it still holds 2021-03-30T02:08:59Z copec: That's what I was looking at, and then looking at Mito since it is high on all my searches 2021-03-30T02:18:51Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2021-03-30T02:32:06Z Sheilong quit 2021-03-30T02:57:46Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-30T03:01:42Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2021-03-30T03:02:08Z Alfr is now known as Guest57499 2021-03-30T03:02:12Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-03-30T03:04:31Z Guest57499 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-30T03:08:06Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-30T03:08:16Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2021-03-30T03:10:01Z indathrone joined #lisp 2021-03-30T03:11:38Z klltkr quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-30T03:13:29Z Josh_2: Morning beach 2021-03-30T03:13:48Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-30T03:14:38Z klltkr joined #lisp 2021-03-30T03:14:50Z klltkr quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-30T03:16:59Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-30T03:17:15Z IPmonger quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5+deb4 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-30T03:18:29Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2021-03-30T03:18:30Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-03-30T03:28:04Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-30T03:29:51Z sp41 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-30T03:33:39Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-30T03:51:54Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-30T03:57:21Z johnjay joined #lisp 2021-03-30T04:02:00Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-30T04:09:03Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-30T04:11:00Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-03-30T04:22:00Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-30T04:29:45Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-30T04:40:32Z jeosol joined #lisp 2021-03-30T04:41:11Z long4mud quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-30T04:43:34Z long4mud joined #lisp 2021-03-30T04:46:09Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-30T04:47:51Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-30T04:48:15Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-03-30T04:48:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: copec: you'll find a variety of opinions here 2021-03-30T04:49:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: I generally think Postmodern or the sqlite wrappers are a good choice if you need a "Real DB" 2021-03-30T04:50:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: However, most programs work really well with a well-thought-out system of files for persistence 2021-03-30T04:50:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: e.g. logging updates as lisp forms and then replaying the log when your system starts up 2021-03-30T04:51:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: SQLite is useful here, because the developers of SQLite have put a lot of effort into handling the edge cases around "writing reliably to secondary storage" 2021-03-30T04:54:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: Anyways, would it be reasonable for EQL specializers to only hold a weak reference to the object they reference? 2021-03-30T04:58:05Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-30T04:58:07Z no-defun-allowed: From the protocol level, it makes sense. From the implementation level, I wonder how much having to remove methods which will never be called complicates things, and if having the weak-value indirection slows down things. 2021-03-30T04:59:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, you'd probably need to make the GC aware of generic functions or something 2021-03-30T04:59:18Z wxie joined #lisp 2021-03-30T05:01:24Z no-defun-allowed: Or you could mess with the discriminator function constant vector and MMU to get similar performance. 2021-03-30T05:02:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: The reason I'm wondering is that it seems like there might be some interesting patterns around implementing protocols inside a LET or a DEFUN 2021-03-30T05:02:45Z no-defun-allowed: When the GC runs, it would have to replace any eql-specializer values that have been collected with some value - nah, we don't do anything with the value other than test it with EQL, so you couldn't use a memory trap to re-compile with dead methods. 2021-03-30T05:04:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: If the GC special-cased generic functions, it could remove the dead methods and collect the method objects 2021-03-30T05:05:27Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, I suppose it could instead clear the cached discrimination function. 2021-03-30T05:05:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: Your method combination would have to be designed to handle dangling references, but that seems relatively easy 2021-03-30T05:07:26Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-30T05:07:29Z no-defun-allowed: If the function was removed, oh, there could still be mutator threads in the discriminating function, so that's true. 2021-03-30T05:11:46Z nullheroes quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2021-03-30T05:12:03Z nullheroes joined #lisp 2021-03-30T05:15:56Z vsync quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-30T05:34:55Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-03-30T05:37:36Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-30T05:39:43Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-03-30T05:42:01Z MrtnDk[m]: nij just tell us; are you raised in a Microsoft Windows environment, complete with Microsoft office, etc? 2021-03-30T05:42:47Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-30T05:43:49Z MrtnDk[m]: Never mind it will get off topic, and it seems you already found a solution for the db-stuff. 2021-03-30T05:47:49Z long4mud quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-30T05:48:24Z vsync joined #lisp 2021-03-30T05:49:10Z long4mud joined #lisp 2021-03-30T05:55:06Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-30T06:04:46Z _paul0 joined #lisp 2021-03-30T06:07:43Z maple joined #lisp 2021-03-30T06:08:06Z maple is now known as Guest34366 2021-03-30T06:08:29Z paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-30T06:08:54Z Guest34366 quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-30T06:23:02Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-30T06:24:40Z beach wonders why people seem to systematically ignore Clobber for logging and replaying transactions, even though nobody who used it has had any complainants so far. 2021-03-30T06:25:20Z loke[m]1: What is clobber, and why haven't I heard about it before? 2021-03-30T06:25:54Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-30T06:26:13Z beach: It is a very simple system for logging transactions and replaying them. I mention it pretty much every time someone wants an object store, or prevalence, or a data base, or... 2021-03-30T06:26:18Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-30T06:27:01Z beach: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Clobber 2021-03-30T06:27:46Z beach: It's a total of 550 lines of code. Very simple. 2021-03-30T06:27:57Z beach: 250 of those lines are demo examples. 2021-03-30T06:28:42Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-30T06:29:04Z beach: I guess I am ignorant, but I don't see how to use a traditional relational database from Common Lisp. 2021-03-30T06:29:34Z loke[m]1: beach: really? I findusing Postgres from CL quite natural. 2021-03-30T06:29:34Z beach: I mean, what if you store, say, a person (i.e. an instance of the class PERSON). How does the GC know to look in the external database for it? 2021-03-30T06:29:38Z loke[m]1: * beach: really? I find using Postgres from CL quite natural. 2021-03-30T06:30:23Z loke[m]1: beach: That's unrelated to SQL databases though. What you're referring to is an OR-mapping. 2021-03-30T06:30:29Z beach: And if the GC doesn't find it, does it still live on in the data base? And if so, what happens when you read the object back in? Is it EQ to the object you stored? 2021-03-30T06:31:15Z loke[m]1: Typically an OR mapping is implemented using a metaclass that tracks changes to an instance and then implements a synchronisation function that writes the updates to a database. 2021-03-30T06:31:48Z loke[m]1: Need to leave my desk for a meeting. back in an hour. 2021-03-30T06:31:54Z beach: Take care. 2021-03-30T06:32:06Z loke[m]1: I implemented an OR-mapping for CouchDB once though, you can take a look at my code here: 2021-03-30T06:32:37Z beach: So that sounds really complicated. And I still don't understand how it works. Does it mean that I can't just store a person. I have to have a different kind of person that with a different metaclass? 2021-03-30T06:33:50Z no-defun-allowed: I am terrified of planning how I might handle crashes leaving my server "database" (which is backed by the filesystem) in an inconsistent state. Ideally, replication would make the stored state so small, that it'd be easier just to reload everything from the network, but that is probably not going to happen. 2021-03-30T06:33:51Z beach: But suppose I just drop the reference to my person in memory, even though it is stored in the database. Does the OR mapping know to delete the object from the data base when the GC has recycled it? 2021-03-30T06:34:54Z no-defun-allowed: The OR only deletes when instructed to. Using references would make it impossible to use datasets that are larger than the address space provided to the Lisp image. 2021-03-30T06:35:27Z beach: Wow, so we turn Common Lisp into a language without automatic memory management? 2021-03-30T06:35:35Z beach: I knew there was something fishy with data bases. 2021-03-30T06:36:01Z no-defun-allowed: We both know that such datasets rarely exist, but that is a problem. And yes, it could be considered manual entry management. 2021-03-30T06:36:21Z beach: My suspicions were confirmed then. Thanks! 2021-03-30T06:36:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: I tend to think of the database as a remote application like a webservice, when I'm dealing with RDBMSes 2021-03-30T06:36:43Z no-defun-allowed: I wanted to use a SQL database (e.g. Postgres) as a backend for this server, but I have an approximation of real objects to store, and the best option is to serialize into a binary format, which apparently Postgres doesn't handle so efficiently. 2021-03-30T06:36:56Z beach: So then, why on earth would a Common Lisp programmer turn to a data base even though the data set is small enough to be kept in memory? 2021-03-30T06:37:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: The main one is consistency checks that don't depend on your application code being correct 2021-03-30T06:37:27Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: Yes, and I also don't understand remote stuff since I don't see how identity would be preserved. 2021-03-30T06:38:17Z beach: And I don't understand serialization in general either, since it too does not preserve identity. 2021-03-30T06:38:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: The DB schema usually changes much more slowly than your application code, and the cost of corrupted persistent data can be extremely high 2021-03-30T06:39:01Z beach: Clobber is such that you work in memory, and log the transactions. You can then quit your Common Lisp system, restart it, and load the log, and a "similar" object graph will be created. 2021-03-30T06:39:06Z beach: No identity problems. 2021-03-30T06:39:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: Usually identity is represented by one or more values that uniquely identify an object 2021-03-30T06:39:24Z no-defun-allowed: I am also not going to bet that the objects stored by a server will fit in memory, because truth told, I have no clue what kind of access patterns could happen, if the network is running literally any class-based object-oriented program. 2021-03-30T06:39:42Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: So you mean you need to manually create pointers just like you do with SQL? 2021-03-30T06:40:33Z beach: I truly can't figure out why a Common Lisp programmer would be willing to sacrifice all the good parts of Common Lisp in order to use a data base. 2021-03-30T06:41:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: In distributed systems in general, the idea of "identity" is usually not really central, in the sense of reference identity 2021-03-30T06:41:30Z no-defun-allowed: Having some varying stages of going from real objects to binary blobs, I maintain a weak hash table of already-existing instances and their hashes in the server and client. Thus we can have enough object identity for things to make sense. 2021-03-30T06:41:56Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: Exactly, which is why I don't want distributed, and I don't understand it. 2021-03-30T06:42:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: or reference equalityy 2021-03-30T06:42:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: Usually you treat as identical things that are equal under an appropriately specified value of "equality" 2021-03-30T06:42:44Z beach: Abandoning Common Lisp-style identity means you are no longer programming Common Lisp really. 2021-03-30T06:43:12Z no-defun-allowed: And we continue to maintain the illusion by putting a read barrier on SLOT-VALUE-USING-CLASS, which rewrites slot values to replace "reference" objects with the real object supplied by the client. 2021-03-30T06:43:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: Again, I don't think of the database as part of my program 2021-03-30T06:43:43Z no-defun-allowed: There was a technique based on "naming" objects and maintaining name translation tables in replicated object systems which I read about. 2021-03-30T06:43:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: Anymore than the IRC server is part of my IRC client 2021-03-30T06:43:46Z White_Flame: nor is a database part of your address space, nor connected to the ephemeral runtime of the lisp image 2021-03-30T06:43:47Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-30T06:44:02Z beach: And you have to take into account the possibility of one application object being represented by several instances. Then you have to track updates so that all instances are synchronous. That sounds like C++ programming to me. 2021-03-30T06:44:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't understand that problem 2021-03-30T06:44:38Z White_Flame: in database applications, the database is the canonical store of information. Clients work with queries & pieces at a time, resolving all changes back into the shared database 2021-03-30T06:44:59Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-30T06:45:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, no client should ever care about the state of the data in another client 2021-03-30T06:45:12Z beach: So, how does that work if I want to store a person (instance of the class PERSON)? 2021-03-30T06:45:12Z White_Flame: any lisp runtime can come and go, working with the external data in the database, as much as little as it wants, and can do so simultaneously with others 2021-03-30T06:45:27Z White_Flame: databases are for data, not for objects 2021-03-30T06:45:40Z beach: Oh, so you can't store objects? 2021-03-30T06:45:51Z White_Flame: no, you store rows of data in tables 2021-03-30T06:45:59Z beach: Since in Common Lisp an object is any Common Lisp datum, what is the difference? 2021-03-30T06:46:10Z White_Flame: because of references 2021-03-30T06:46:22Z White_Flame: "relational" databases mean the relations are reified 2021-03-30T06:46:26Z no-defun-allowed: I don't think SQL has references (any more than it has indexes of rows in tables). 2021-03-30T06:46:32Z White_Flame: instead of implicit unnamed references 2021-03-30T06:46:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think the best way to think of a table is a relation between the primary key and 0 or more other values 2021-03-30T06:47:17Z no-defun-allowed: At the rate at which I program, it might be wiser for myself to wait for CLOSOS, and use the in-memory database implementation as a persistent database. 2021-03-30T06:47:21Z beach: Now I am beginning to see the answer to my question. It appears that the data base can store only objects that are not guaranteed to be EQ, so that creating a copy is not a problem. 2021-03-30T06:47:23Z White_Flame: and because it has no implicit references, that removes the burden fo having everything manifested at once 2021-03-30T06:47:29Z beach: That is one SERIOUS LIMITATION. 2021-03-30T06:47:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: It isn't really 2021-03-30T06:47:58Z beach: It is for me. 2021-03-30T06:48:03Z White_Flame: databases are for: 1) your data is bigger than RAM, 2) you need transactional security, 3) you have multiple users hitting your data simultaneously, 4) the data needs to persist safely 2021-03-30T06:48:03Z moon-child: if it's a concern, make your own version of eq that compares primary keys for db-sourced objects 2021-03-30T06:48:18Z no-defun-allowed: It makes me have to serialize, and handle all that stuff. 2021-03-30T06:48:36Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-03-30T06:48:40Z Stanley00 quit 2021-03-30T06:48:48Z beach: Anyway, thanks for all the information. All my suspicions were confirmed. 2021-03-30T06:49:14Z White_Flame: and of course, SQL (and any query language, like prolog etc) makes traversing thorugh tons of data way simpler than imperative looping 2021-03-30T06:49:42Z White_Flame: so in my list above, clobber only addresses 2 and 4 2021-03-30T06:49:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: now the "log of data" method like Clobber is also pretty widely used 2021-03-30T06:49:56Z no-defun-allowed: Re-reading the Postgres manual, the "limitation" that a binary value has to be materialized entirely in memory is not really a problem, as I would do that on the Lisp side briefly too. 2021-03-30T06:50:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's great for situations where you want to distribute work across a large number of computers 2021-03-30T06:50:34Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-30T06:50:45Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-30T06:51:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: The last system I worked on basically treated the database as a cache, and you replayed the log through all the worker nodes to rebuild or update the cache. 2021-03-30T06:51:27Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-30T06:51:47Z White_Flame: beach:your EQ conclusion is incorrect as well. Relational keys have very speciifc equality semantics, and those are the only things that are compared for identity 2021-03-30T06:51:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, in this context, the restrictions are even more severe because you have to design your data so that reprocessing the same log entry doesn't change the DB 2021-03-30T06:52:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: Because, roughly, you can't guarantee that a message in the log is only processed once (if you want to make sure that you don't lose any data) 2021-03-30T06:52:38Z beach: White_Flame: Sure, but they are separate from my Common Lisp references, so I have to program differently. 2021-03-30T06:53:04Z White_Flame: correct, they are data, they are not objects. there is no pointer or reference to them. they are stored by key 2021-03-30T06:53:24Z beach: Yes, again, my suspicions are confirmed. 2021-03-30T06:53:35Z White_Flame: and those keys between rows can be connected in unique ways via sql to get summaries, comparisons, joins, etc in complex ways across huge datasets 2021-03-30T06:54:02Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2021-03-30T06:54:18Z beach: So here is a good story: My employer bought Oracle to store student information like exam results, etc. I proved to my students that 100 years of such data would fit in the RAM of the laptop I was using at the time. 2021-03-30T06:54:29Z White_Flame: actually, the key is only for fast lookup, there can be slow lookup for any match 2021-03-30T06:55:10Z White_Flame: right, you can make custom solutions for anything. Or you can have multiple machines all sharing ACID protected data in a standard way 2021-03-30T06:55:27Z White_Flame: instead of only implemented the protections you think are needed at implementation time 2021-03-30T06:55:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: White_Flame: the primary key is sort of essential to the relational model, though 2021-03-30T06:55:49Z White_Flame: fiddlerwoaroof: it's what makes it scalable 2021-03-30T06:56:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: Not just that, it's how you make design decisions 2021-03-30T06:57:03Z White_Flame: any non-key column can be used for selection. just the key is unique with the table and indexed well 2021-03-30T06:57:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: e.g. your schema is largely driven by the idea that a table is a relation between the columns that compose the primary key and the rest of the columns 2021-03-30T06:57:19Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-30T06:58:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've never read Codd's book on the relational model, but my general impression is that the primary key is not just an optimization, it's part of the theory behind the model 2021-03-30T06:58:44Z White_Flame: yes, it's part of using it well 2021-03-30T06:58:52Z White_Flame: and designing around the best strengths 2021-03-30T06:58:58Z White_Flame: I just made the point that it's not the only way to query 2021-03-30T06:59:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: sure 2021-03-30T07:01:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: RDBMSes also tend to be used by multiple applicaitons simultaneously: e.g. the applications your developers make for users, the financial department's accounting software, the data science department's modeling tools, etc. 2021-03-30T07:02:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: The other big advantage is that it's a relatively rigorously specified way to represent data that lots of existing tools can take advantage of. 2021-03-30T07:02:04Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-30T07:03:05Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-30T07:07:14Z no-defun-allowed: Generally, I'm now convinced that getting a database to behave with the possibility of crashes is easier than getting a filesystem to behave. 2021-03-30T07:07:14Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-30T07:08:23Z White_Flame: I"m just dealing with too many problems that have to deal with tons of data 2021-03-30T07:09:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: no-defun-allowed: this is a great read on that topic https://danluu.com/deconstruct-files/ 2021-03-30T07:10:41Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-30T07:11:13Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-30T07:11:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: Some people tried testing the assumptions made by various tools that have to write files reliably. 2021-03-30T07:11:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: They discovered "every single piece of software they tested except for SQLite in one particular mode had at least one bug" 2021-03-30T07:11:53Z no-defun-allowed: Making either work correctly with all the logic, and all the stuff I keep in memory for performance, seems hard though. 2021-03-30T07:12:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: And this isn't an accident: SQLite is tested for correctness pretty thoroughly https://www.sqlite.org/testing.html 2021-03-30T07:12:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, my recent thought has been "don't write data to files, write it to SQLite" 2021-03-30T07:13:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: You don't even need to treat it as an actual database, just one table with a single column that you append to 2021-03-30T07:14:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: And then replay the table in order like a log 2021-03-30T07:17:58Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-03-30T07:22:58Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2021-03-30T07:23:47Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-30T07:25:48Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-30T07:27:06Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-30T07:27:52Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-30T07:29:08Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-03-30T07:30:53Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-30T07:30:53Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2021-03-30T07:30:53Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-30T07:32:00Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-30T07:34:52Z imuo quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-30T07:36:18Z surabax joined #lisp 2021-03-30T07:37:39Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-30T07:41:21Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-30T07:42:30Z raeda_ joined #lisp 2021-03-30T07:42:30Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-30T07:43:18Z dvdmuckle_ joined #lisp 2021-03-30T07:43:27Z mseddon4 joined #lisp 2021-03-30T07:44:16Z fengshaun_ joined #lisp 2021-03-30T07:45:45Z jeosol quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-30T07:45:49Z lansiir joined #lisp 2021-03-30T07:46:19Z oldtopman quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-30T07:46:33Z gitgood quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-30T07:46:59Z dvdmuckle quit (Quit: Bouncer Surgery) 2021-03-30T07:46:59Z mseddon quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2021-03-30T07:47:00Z dvdmuckle_ is now known as dvdmuckle 2021-03-30T07:47:00Z raeda quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-30T07:47:00Z fengshaun quit (Quit: bibi!) 2021-03-30T07:47:00Z mseddon4 is now known as mseddon 2021-03-30T07:47:00Z cyraxjoe quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2021-03-30T07:47:00Z thecoffemaker quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-30T07:47:05Z MightyJoe joined #lisp 2021-03-30T07:47:54Z hiredman quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-30T07:48:03Z loke[m]1: If you want to see my implementation of a object mapping for CouchDB: https://github.com/lokedhs/potato/blob/master/src/potato/metaclasses.lisp#L33 2021-03-30T07:48:31Z thecoffemaker joined #lisp 2021-03-30T07:48:35Z hiredman joined #lisp 2021-03-30T07:48:39Z srandon111 joined #lisp 2021-03-30T07:49:04Z loke[m]1: And here is one use of it: https://github.com/lokedhs/potato/blob/master/src/potato/upload.lisp#L193 2021-03-30T07:50:16Z lotuseater joined #lisp 2021-03-30T07:56:16Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-30T07:59:29Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2021-03-30T07:59:56Z srandon111: hello all, is active development on common lisp and/or common lisp libraries/modules still done? or is it a lnaguage just used to mantain old software? 2021-03-30T08:00:35Z beach: srandon111: There is lots of active development of applications and system software written in Common Lisp. 2021-03-30T08:01:06Z beach: srandon111: But there is no coordinated activity to evolve the language itself. 2021-03-30T08:01:16Z Alfr quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-30T08:03:15Z scymtym: there is probably also some work to keep legacy common lisp software running, but my impression is that such cases often involve commercial software and the commercial implementations and are not discussed here 2021-03-30T08:03:51Z beach: Indeed (to both observations). 2021-03-30T08:04:23Z beach: srandon111: Where did you get the idea that there might not be any active development in Common Lisp? 2021-03-30T08:07:05Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-03-30T08:07:40Z OlCe joined #lisp 2021-03-30T08:08:14Z srandon111: beach, just small talk that is an old language nobody uses anymore 2021-03-30T08:08:19Z srandon111: but don't know if it's true 2021-03-30T08:08:28Z srandon111: so i got the idea nobody develops 3rd party libraries anymore 2021-03-30T08:08:47Z beach: srandon111: You shouldn't listen to what ignorant people say. 2021-03-30T08:09:15Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2021-03-30T08:09:33Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-30T08:10:04Z srandon111: beach, yes i know that's why i asked 2021-03-30T08:10:08Z beach: srandon111: I said "ignorant", but there is another category of people who will spread this kind of misinformation, namely people who have a huge amount of effort invested in some technology that might be threatened by Common Lisp. 2021-03-30T08:10:27Z srandon111: beach, yes i can imagine that of course 2021-03-30T08:11:16Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2021-03-30T08:12:09Z beach: That last kind of people is a dangerous one. Carol Dweck calls this phenomenon a "closed mindset". And these people will sometimes do awful stuff to avoid having to abandon the technology they invested in, and learn something better. 2021-03-30T08:12:39Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-30T08:13:03Z beach: Often, people with a closed mindset are also very sociable and come across as leaders, which makes the problem even worse. 2021-03-30T08:13:25Z scymtym: but there is no useful answer to such questions anyway. if a single person still uses common lisp, the answer whether anybody still uses common lisp would technically be "yes", but practically "no". but at what threshold does the answer become practically "yes"? 2021-03-30T08:14:02Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-30T08:14:02Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-30T08:14:10Z beach: True. 2021-03-30T08:14:40Z tiwEllien joined #lisp 2021-03-30T08:15:10Z mathrick joined #lisp 2021-03-30T08:20:57Z tiwEllien quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-30T08:25:40Z wxie quit (Quit: wxie) 2021-03-30T08:33:24Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2021-03-30T08:33:37Z wxie joined #lisp 2021-03-30T08:37:52Z _paul0 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-30T08:38:30Z mgr_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-30T08:38:40Z mgr_ joined #lisp 2021-03-30T08:38:54Z nij joined #lisp 2021-03-30T08:40:10Z troydm joined #lisp 2021-03-30T08:40:20Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-30T08:40:55Z nij left #lisp 2021-03-30T08:42:26Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-30T08:48:46Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-30T08:49:25Z pve joined #lisp 2021-03-30T08:49:28Z wxie quit (Quit: wxie) 2021-03-30T08:50:31Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-30T08:53:14Z kingcons quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-30T08:54:51Z kingcons joined #lisp 2021-03-30T08:54:56Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-03-30T08:55:14Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-30T08:56:23Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-30T08:57:32Z wxie joined #lisp 2021-03-30T09:00:16Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-30T09:00:21Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-30T09:01:24Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-03-30T09:02:10Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-30T09:02:50Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-30T09:07:19Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-30T09:07:26Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-30T09:07:52Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-30T09:08:58Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-30T09:09:24Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-03-30T09:14:17Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-30T09:14:38Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-30T09:20:54Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-30T09:29:09Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-03-30T09:29:09Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-30T09:29:10Z White_Flame: srandon111: quicklisp really invigorated 3rd party usage, and compared to CL's age is quite recent 2021-03-30T09:29:17Z White_Flame: *3rd party library usage 2021-03-30T09:29:25Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-30T09:29:41Z l1x joined #lisp 2021-03-30T09:32:07Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-03-30T09:33:33Z zdravko61 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-30T09:34:05Z johnjay joined #lisp 2021-03-30T09:45:29Z tiwEllien joined #lisp 2021-03-30T09:46:59Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-30T09:49:46Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-30T09:52:39Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-30T09:53:44Z tiwEllien quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-30T09:53:46Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-30T09:54:48Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-30T09:55:58Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-03-30T09:56:13Z srandon111: scymtym, ok so the question is, is common lisp practically used ? 2021-03-30T09:56:20Z srandon111: are there modern projects written in common lisp ? 2021-03-30T10:00:07Z vegansbane6963 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-03-30T10:02:45Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-30T10:03:47Z scymtym: srandon111: my answers would be yes and yes. a popular example is google's search engine for flights 2021-03-30T10:03:54Z bonz060: srandon111: Yes. Checkout nyxt: https://github.com/atlas-engineer/nyxt 2021-03-30T10:05:30Z wxie quit (Quit: wxie) 2021-03-30T10:06:22Z beach: srandon111: Why is that information important to you? 2021-03-30T10:07:50Z igemnace quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-30T10:07:58Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-30T10:08:45Z no-defun-allowed: "Having asked about the possibility that there are real people out there who use Lisp (as opposed to AI People who are known to be non-real) and having received no answers, I can only conclude that Lisp is not being used and that it is not, therefore, a real language." 2021-03-30T10:08:58Z no-defun-allowed: (kidding, of course) 2021-03-30T10:09:13Z beach: Is that a quotation from somewhere? 2021-03-30T10:10:09Z no-defun-allowed: The ending remarks from a short-lived section of some journal called Lisp Pointers. It failed to catch on because Lisp people call them references and not pointers. 2021-03-30T10:10:31Z beach: srandon111: I am asking because if the answer had been "no", what conclusion would you draw from it? It would be a grave mistake to draw the conclusion that Common Lisp CAN NOT be used for such thing, as opposed to drawing the more correct conclusion that programmers (and especially managers) are generally not very well trained when it comes to knowing the features of what is out there. 2021-03-30T10:10:55Z no-defun-allowed: Oh, the journal was Lisp Pointers, and that was the closing remark of "The key of Lisp". 2021-03-30T10:11:06Z beach: OK. 2021-03-30T10:11:15Z luni joined #lisp 2021-03-30T10:11:21Z luni left #lisp 2021-03-30T10:11:40Z no-defun-allowed: Sorry for distracting you with my self-correction. 2021-03-30T10:18:12Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-30T10:28:50Z cchristiansen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-30T10:33:41Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-03-30T10:33:51Z srandon111: beach, i wanted to learn a lisp language and have doubts about doing clojure or common lisp 2021-03-30T10:34:00Z srandon111: i like the fact of common lisp for not being dependant on JVM 2021-03-30T10:34:08Z srandon111: and being able to produce statically linked executables 2021-03-30T10:34:14Z srandon111: which this is much harder for clojuer 2021-03-30T10:45:06Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-30T10:45:30Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-30T10:48:19Z indathrone: srandon111: don't overthink it; just pick one and get started. If you like working in lisps, much of what you learn with one will translate into working in others. 2021-03-30T10:48:38Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-30T10:49:23Z jackdaniel: (but don't trust people claiming that cobol is an acceptable lisp!) 2021-03-30T10:49:32Z no-defun-allowed: "much" is writing (f a b) instead of f(a, b) 2021-03-30T10:50:41Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-03-30T10:51:47Z akoana joined #lisp 2021-03-30T11:10:25Z Odin-: srandon111: In my experience, Clojure has more concessions to modern ways of thinking, but the community assumes that Java is familiar. 2021-03-30T11:11:13Z no-defun-allowed: mOdErN wAyS oF tHiNkInG 2021-03-30T11:12:17Z Odin-: Yeah, you know, like "JSON is really where data formats should be at". 2021-03-30T11:12:32Z Odin-: I never said modern was better. :) 2021-03-30T11:12:34Z no-defun-allowed: Now that you mention it, sure why not. 2021-03-30T11:13:01Z no-defun-allowed: Usually that's the implication still. Sorry. 2021-03-30T11:13:41Z OlCe quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-30T11:14:12Z Odin- is a historian, so sometimes forget that's the automatic reading. 2021-03-30T11:17:44Z Spawns_Carpeting quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-30T11:17:59Z Spawns_Carpeting joined #lisp 2021-03-30T11:19:19Z OlCe joined #lisp 2021-03-30T11:30:06Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-30T11:30:58Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-30T11:58:49Z VincentVega joined #lisp 2021-03-30T12:02:17Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-03-30T12:12:53Z VincentVega: Anyone who used cffi here? How do I do automatic NULL checks? I have a bunch of functions that return various pointers, so I guess I can't just do this https://pastebin.com/zbz31xRa  and would have to produce these definitions on the fly or something. Unless there's an existing mechanism for this of course, and that's why I am here. 2021-03-30T12:15:22Z heisig joined #lisp 2021-03-30T12:15:57Z tinhatcat joined #lisp 2021-03-30T12:17:34Z tinhatcat quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-30T12:19:44Z nikolayclfx joined #lisp 2021-03-30T12:23:30Z VincentVega: In fact, nvm, guess I can try to define new foreign types on the fly, if cffi is ok with it... 2021-03-30T12:25:37Z srandon111: indathrone, jackdaniel thanks a lot 2021-03-30T12:26:01Z wxie joined #lisp 2021-03-30T12:26:18Z jackdaniel: huh, I didn't contribute to the discussion anything except for a joke 2021-03-30T12:26:21Z jackdaniel: but sure 2021-03-30T12:31:06Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-30T12:31:27Z Spawns_Carpeting quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-30T12:32:10Z Spawns_Carpeting joined #lisp 2021-03-30T12:36:09Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-30T12:36:47Z gareppa joined #lisp 2021-03-30T12:39:02Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-30T12:48:00Z gareppa quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-30T12:54:28Z rodriga joined #lisp 2021-03-30T12:57:27Z frgo_ joined #lisp 2021-03-30T13:00:46Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-30T13:25:42Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-30T13:26:40Z matryoshka joined #lisp 2021-03-30T13:29:15Z warweasle joined #lisp 2021-03-30T13:31:27Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-30T13:32:02Z matryoshka joined #lisp 2021-03-30T13:39:09Z raeda_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-30T13:39:21Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-03-30T13:39:27Z raeda_ joined #lisp 2021-03-30T13:39:43Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-30T13:41:00Z matryoshka joined #lisp 2021-03-30T13:41:57Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-30T13:46:21Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-30T13:47:19Z matryoshka joined #lisp 2021-03-30T13:48:10Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-30T13:49:06Z matryoshka joined #lisp 2021-03-30T13:49:53Z Oddity- quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-30T13:50:55Z wxie quit (Quit: wxie) 2021-03-30T13:50:58Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-03-30T13:52:16Z eden joined #lisp 2021-03-30T13:57:25Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-03-30T13:57:45Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-30T14:00:04Z sp41 joined #lisp 2021-03-30T14:00:47Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-30T14:04:13Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-30T14:04:42Z jmercouris: beach: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/issues/2013 2021-03-30T14:05:38Z p9fn quit (Quit: https://lice.muppetz.com) 2021-03-30T14:12:02Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2021-03-30T14:13:30Z Noisytoot is now known as noisytoot[x] 2021-03-30T14:13:46Z noisytoot[x] is now known as Noisytoot 2021-03-30T14:14:01Z frgo_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-30T14:14:27Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-30T14:15:08Z phoe: 2013 was eight years ago 2021-03-30T14:15:43Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-30T14:17:42Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-30T14:22:28Z beach: jmercouris: Perfect! Thanks! 2021-03-30T14:26:09Z yonkunas joined #lisp 2021-03-30T14:26:37Z jmercouris: no problem 2021-03-30T14:26:57Z jmercouris: oh boy, that was a while ago huh 2021-03-30T14:29:47Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-30T14:37:10Z Spawns_Carpeting quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-30T14:38:02Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-03-30T14:38:04Z Spawns_Carpeting joined #lisp 2021-03-30T14:39:47Z jmercouris: how to make a stream from a string? 2021-03-30T14:39:54Z jmercouris: I am trying to READ a string 2021-03-30T14:40:06Z beach: clhs with-input-from-string 2021-03-30T14:40:06Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_in_f.htm 2021-03-30T14:40:13Z jmercouris: right, I was so close 2021-03-30T14:40:17Z jmercouris: I kept typing "with" to try to find it 2021-03-30T14:40:20Z jmercouris: thanks 2021-03-30T14:40:25Z beach: Sure. 2021-03-30T14:40:52Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-30T14:45:54Z long4mud quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-30T14:52:40Z Guest83962 is now known as seisatsu 2021-03-30T14:56:39Z wsinatra quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-30T14:57:09Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-03-30T15:00:57Z nikolayclfx quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-30T15:05:04Z aeth_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-30T15:06:39Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-03-30T15:08:47Z jmercouris: many times I see some opaque SB-SYS:INT-SAP when working with C code 2021-03-30T15:08:55Z jmercouris: is there way to inspect what is AT that address? an int or whatever? 2021-03-30T15:09:42Z Bike: objects constructed by C code do not in general have asosciated type information 2021-03-30T15:09:48Z jmercouris: I understand that 2021-03-30T15:09:54Z Bike: i'm pretty sure you know that, so i don't know what you're expecting 2021-03-30T15:09:56Z jmercouris: there is no way to try to guess? 2021-03-30T15:10:05Z jmercouris: like if I say "this is probably a char array 2021-03-30T15:10:07Z jmercouris: could it show me the value? 2021-03-30T15:10:13Z aeth: CFFI it? 2021-03-30T15:10:24Z Bike: yeah, you can use cffi or sb-alien to dereference 2021-03-30T15:10:35Z jmercouris: can you please expand upon what you mean? 2021-03-30T15:10:36Z aeth: CFFI the pointer and read it as, say, octets 2021-03-30T15:10:44Z jmercouris: I see 2021-03-30T15:11:01Z Bike: cffi and sb-alien expose operations to dereference pointers 2021-03-30T15:11:15Z aeth: jmercouris: https://gitlab.com/-/snippets/1830092 2021-03-30T15:11:26Z aeth: as a reference to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_inverse_square_root 2021-03-30T15:11:28Z Bike: of course, if you don't know the type, this could cause problems. for example if you guess something is a null terminated string and it turns out to be a two megabyte array with no zeroes in it 2021-03-30T15:11:38Z jmercouris: I see 2021-03-30T15:11:46Z jmercouris: well, yes 2021-03-30T15:11:57Z jmercouris: in this case I am working Gboxed objects 2021-03-30T15:12:03Z jmercouris: so the type information /should/ be what the documentation says 2021-03-30T15:12:16Z jmercouris: well then again, there are no guarantees in this life 2021-03-30T15:12:19Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-30T15:12:36Z jmercouris: thanks for the ideas 2021-03-30T15:15:10Z wsinatra quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-30T15:19:09Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-03-30T15:22:01Z jmercouris: Is there a way to click on a var and see its value in the REPL? 2021-03-30T15:22:09Z jmercouris: for example I see a defvar form in my source code 2021-03-30T15:22:16Z jmercouris: can I just click on it and see its current value? 2021-03-30T15:23:40Z ecraven: SLIME might be able to do this 2021-03-30T15:23:45Z jmercouris: as it stands, what I currently do is switch to the package 2021-03-30T15:23:47Z jmercouris: and then print it out 2021-03-30T15:24:24Z _death: C-c C-i RET ? 2021-03-30T15:24:32Z _death: er, C-c C-I RET 2021-03-30T15:25:00Z _death: once again.. C-c I RET :/ 2021-03-30T15:25:20Z jmercouris: _death: THANK YOU 2021-03-30T15:25:27Z jmercouris: that is so damn useful 2021-03-30T15:25:43Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-30T15:26:15Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-30T15:35:15Z sjl joined #lisp 2021-03-30T15:52:54Z tiwEllien joined #lisp 2021-03-30T16:00:14Z tiwEllien quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-30T16:04:32Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-30T16:05:12Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-30T16:05:38Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2021-03-30T16:08:37Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-30T16:10:21Z akoana left #lisp 2021-03-30T16:18:46Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-03-30T16:18:56Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-30T16:24:29Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2021-03-30T16:27:33Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2021-03-30T16:33:30Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-30T16:38:17Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-30T16:41:54Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-30T16:46:14Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-30T16:47:48Z supercoven joined #lisp 2021-03-30T16:49:08Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-30T16:50:21Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2021-03-30T16:59:54Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-03-30T17:03:48Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-30T17:03:58Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-30T17:04:39Z gitgood joined #lisp 2021-03-30T17:05:44Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-30T17:06:01Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-30T17:08:22Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2021-03-30T17:08:22Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-30T17:13:11Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-30T17:19:30Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-03-30T17:31:39Z marusich quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-30T17:37:08Z a0 joined #lisp 2021-03-30T17:39:57Z eden quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-30T17:40:06Z frfxzd joined #lisp 2021-03-30T17:40:18Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-30T17:42:03Z johnjay joined #lisp 2021-03-30T17:44:08Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-03-30T17:45:52Z hendursa1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-30T17:46:01Z imuo joined #lisp 2021-03-30T17:46:17Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-03-30T17:47:09Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-30T17:48:05Z jonatack quit (Quit: jonatack) 2021-03-30T17:53:33Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-30T17:58:40Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-03-30T18:01:43Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-03-30T18:04:45Z curtosis joined #lisp 2021-03-30T18:04:53Z curtosis is now known as curtosis[away] 2021-03-30T18:08:32Z lotuseat` joined #lisp 2021-03-30T18:10:06Z lotuseater quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-30T18:10:16Z lotuseat` is now known as lotuseater 2021-03-30T18:12:27Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-30T18:12:55Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-03-30T18:14:18Z sauvin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-30T18:14:38Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-30T18:14:58Z VincentVega joined #lisp 2021-03-30T18:15:18Z jeosol joined #lisp 2021-03-30T18:16:29Z jcowan: beach: I think that if you approach the relational model without assumptions and without a filter, you find that it has its own kind of consistency and in fact is quite beautiful in the mathematical sense. 2021-03-30T18:17:02Z jcowan: Granted, SQL databases have made serious compromises with the model like allowing users to depend on the order of columns and rows. 2021-03-30T18:17:52Z jcowan: Without meaning to offend, you sound to me like someone discovering Lisp and saying "My suspicions are confirmed; this is not like Java at all!" 2021-03-30T18:21:14Z jcowan: "Why would anyone give up the rigor of statically typed OOP for this big ball of mud that allows you to write just any old thing?" 2021-03-30T18:25:01Z _death: well, Lisp has some history with object databases.. 2021-03-30T18:26:19Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-30T18:28:31Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-30T18:28:38Z jmercouris: I wish there were different arity functions 2021-03-30T18:29:19Z jmercouris: So we could have the same function redefined with different argument counts like in Java 2021-03-30T18:29:53Z jmercouris: So that we could have both (defun xyz (qwe)) and (defun xyz (qwe rst)) 2021-03-30T18:30:02Z jmercouris: That would be really cool 2021-03-30T18:30:03Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-30T18:30:16Z Gnuxie[m]: you could probably make them 2021-03-30T18:30:28Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-30T18:30:46Z jmercouris: I’m sure I could, I just wish they were built in 2021-03-30T18:31:03Z a0 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-30T18:31:49Z Gnuxie[m]: not sure there's much need for that as none of CL (the language) needs them, so would make sense for it to be a portable library 2021-03-30T18:33:21Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-30T18:33:24Z Alfr: Won't you have to sacrifice &optional and friends? 2021-03-30T18:33:30Z Gnuxie[m]: like, there's nothing that special that is required for their implementation and i don't know how much you'll really lose in performance to dispatch either, it doesn't seem to be that complicated at a first look 2021-03-30T18:33:34Z beach: jcowan: I know the beauty of it. I took a graduate-level course at Hopkins. And it makes a lot of sense as long as you consider only numbers and strings, but it gets more complicated when you want to preserve identity. 2021-03-30T18:35:16Z curtosis[away] quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-30T18:35:35Z cosimone quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-30T18:37:08Z eden joined #lisp 2021-03-30T18:44:09Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-03-30T18:46:07Z hendursa2 joined #lisp 2021-03-30T18:46:45Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-30T18:47:21Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-30T18:49:09Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-30T18:49:20Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-30T18:49:28Z long4mud joined #lisp 2021-03-30T18:52:23Z jmercouris: Alfr: I believe you are correct ambiguity in that case would make some dispatch unsolvable 2021-03-30T18:55:33Z raeda__ joined #lisp 2021-03-30T18:55:40Z imuo quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-30T18:55:53Z raeda_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-30T18:56:38Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-30T18:58:45Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-03-30T18:59:51Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2021-03-30T19:00:29Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-30T19:01:26Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-30T19:01:31Z imuo joined #lisp 2021-03-30T19:01:35Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-03-30T19:02:43Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-30T19:06:53Z Spawns_Carpeting quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-30T19:08:34Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-03-30T19:08:49Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-30T19:09:46Z Spawns_Carpeting joined #lisp 2021-03-30T19:10:38Z jeosol quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-30T19:14:51Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-30T19:26:41Z ggoes quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3) 2021-03-30T19:27:06Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-30T19:27:38Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-03-30T19:28:30Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-30T19:30:11Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-30T19:30:53Z ggoes joined #lisp 2021-03-30T19:31:19Z supercoven quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-30T19:32:47Z Spawns_Carpeting quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-30T19:35:18Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-30T19:35:19Z Spawns_Carpeting joined #lisp 2021-03-30T19:39:47Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-30T19:43:11Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2021-03-30T19:43:54Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-30T19:44:38Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2021-03-30T19:50:21Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-30T19:59:10Z klltkr joined #lisp 2021-03-30T20:00:24Z eden quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-30T20:01:17Z eden joined #lisp 2021-03-30T20:01:39Z curtosis joined #lisp 2021-03-30T20:07:28Z jeosol joined #lisp 2021-03-30T20:10:20Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-30T20:10:31Z frfxzd quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-30T20:11:34Z eden quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-30T20:13:37Z klltkr quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-30T20:14:16Z lotuseater quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-03-30T20:16:05Z warweasle quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 26.1) 2021-03-30T20:16:42Z Bike: you could think of those java and C++ functions as being multiple functions with different types that happen to have the same name. the compiler can unambiguously figure out which definition a particular call will use. lisp has apply so in general it can't. of course you could still make it mostly free with some pretty basic compiler macroing 2021-03-30T20:29:31Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-30T20:29:58Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-30T20:31:07Z Spawns_Carpeting quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-30T20:31:55Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-30T20:32:18Z imuo left #lisp 2021-03-30T20:33:19Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-03-30T20:34:40Z Spawns_Carpeting joined #lisp 2021-03-30T20:35:22Z White_Flame: (defun foo (&rest rest) (apply (aref foo-arities (length rest)) rest) 2021-03-30T20:35:54Z White_Flame: and yeah, kiss &key goodbye 2021-03-30T20:36:01Z pve quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-30T20:36:06Z Inline quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-30T20:37:01Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-30T20:37:15Z White_Flame: inline that defun and you're most of the way there 2021-03-30T20:37:28Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-30T20:38:38Z rodriga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-30T20:39:37Z White_Flame: (foo 1 2 3) should constant fold into (funcall (aref foo-arities 3) 1 2 3) 2021-03-30T20:39:43Z cosimone quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-30T20:40:27Z White_Flame: and still allow #'foo to be passed arround, APPLY'd etc 2021-03-30T20:40:57Z wsinatra quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-30T20:41:31Z chipolux joined #lisp 2021-03-30T20:42:08Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-03-30T20:43:33Z frgo_ joined #lisp 2021-03-30T20:45:57Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-30T20:46:41Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-03-30T20:53:20Z VincentVega joined #lisp 2021-03-30T20:55:24Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-03-30T20:56:44Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-03-30T21:03:50Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-03-30T21:04:49Z chipolux quit (Quit: chipolux) 2021-03-30T21:06:26Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-30T21:08:57Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-03-30T21:10:31Z klltkr joined #lisp 2021-03-30T21:11:16Z aindilis joined #lisp 2021-03-30T21:12:26Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-30T21:20:51Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-30T21:20:53Z raeda__ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-30T21:22:29Z curtosis is now known as curtosis[away] 2021-03-30T21:22:59Z curtosis[away] quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-30T21:36:42Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-30T21:40:24Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-30T21:43:24Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-30T21:48:27Z albusp quit (Quit: albusp) 2021-03-30T21:48:48Z albusp joined #lisp 2021-03-30T21:49:39Z wsinatra quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-03-30T21:52:25Z albusp quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-30T21:52:54Z albusp joined #lisp 2021-03-30T21:56:13Z Shinmera: And the award for Longest Symbol Name Ever Devised goes tooooo.... ASDF (of course), with ASDF/BACKWARD-INTERFACE::*DEPRECATED-FUNCTION-STYLE-WARNING-ENABLE-ASDF-BINARY-LOCATIONS-COMPATIBILITY-NOTIFIED-P* 2021-03-30T21:56:53Z cchristiansen joined #lisp 2021-03-30T22:00:54Z Oddity joined #lisp 2021-03-30T22:01:01Z phadthai: almost as long as long cat 2021-03-30T22:03:41Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-30T22:04:35Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-30T22:06:46Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-30T22:15:09Z jcowan: beach: That was a very old version of the model. The latest version allows arbitrary objects (in the Lisp sense) as primitives. 2021-03-30T22:15:25Z orivej quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-30T22:16:35Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-30T22:17:09Z gabc: Hi! I'm trying to understand conditions, and I keep getting an "Unbound condition slot" error. I reproduced it here, can anybody can see the issue? Thanks! https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2369#2369 2021-03-30T22:18:07Z no-defun-allowed: The :initarg should also be a keyword. 2021-03-30T22:18:11Z Bike: gabc: you have :initarg myvar, but probably meant :initarg :myvar 2021-03-30T22:18:22Z gabc: Arf 2021-03-30T22:18:26Z no-defun-allowed: Yep. 2021-03-30T22:18:40Z Bike: i'm a little surprised signal doesn't complain about that 2021-03-30T22:18:43Z Bike: (on sbcl) 2021-03-30T22:18:59Z Bike: (complain about an unrecognized initarg, i mean) 2021-03-30T22:19:03Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-30T22:19:04Z wooden quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-30T22:21:00Z gabc: Yes it works thanks :) 2021-03-30T22:34:44Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-30T22:35:38Z wxie joined #lisp 2021-03-30T22:36:25Z OlCe quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-30T22:36:55Z wooden joined #lisp 2021-03-30T22:36:56Z wooden quit (Changing host) 2021-03-30T22:36:56Z wooden joined #lisp 2021-03-30T22:44:49Z ccl-logbot joined #lisp 2021-03-30T22:44:49Z 2021-03-30T22:44:49Z names: ccl-logbot gabot tychoish albusp saturn2 Ekho- jxy deltab_ tgbugs Mandus kslt1 Iolo Keyboard1orrier seisatsu_ samebchase gigetoo Cthulhux jdz_ em-bee Guest95177 getha yang_ himmAllRight17 eschatologist_ freshmaker666 mrSpec` justinmcp_ daniel1302_ scymtym_ White__Flame X-Scale samebchase-6 zigpaw107613 leo_song_ dtman34_ luis gpiero_ aap frodef_ hdasch_ hhdave wooden wxie orivej Oddity cchristiansen galex-713 aindilis klltkr Inline anticrisis VincentVega 2021-03-30T22:44:49Z names: frgo_ ljavorsk Spawns_Carpeting aartaka_d jeosol ggoes hiroaki dilated_dinosaur aeth long4mud hendursa2 ukari jonatack johnjay Alfr gitgood skapata rumbler31 bitmapper mindCrime_ yonkunas ebrasca sp41 matryoshka Bike vegansbane6963 contrapunctus l1x varjag kingcons troydm mgr_ mathrick Lord_Nightmare rgherdt srandon111 hiredman thecoffemaker MightyJoe lansiir fengshaun_ mseddon dvdmuckle amb007 vsync nullheroes IPmonger indathrone notzmv semz Jachy 2021-03-30T22:44:49Z names: casual_friday Helmholtz lottaquestions nullman Aurora_v_kosmose zaquest snits tomaw flazh jackdaniel mason astronavt phantomics Josh_2 gaze__ Demosthenex motersen waleee-cl luna_is_here __jrjsmrtn__ spal kevingal easye rixard isoraqathedh mgsk_ greaser|q vegai SAL9000 hvxgr xsperry bjorkintosh defaultxr v3ga ark epony bonz060 hineios stux|RC Colleen caoliver cantstanya edgar-rft mrchampion rigidus Posterdati grumble gxt davisr femi fitzsim engblom lowryder 2021-03-30T22:44:49Z names: jrm terpri_ myall bgardner ravndal midre datajerk cognemo kini luckless_ jcowan d4ryus CrazyEddy ioa jmiven Yardanico Blkt zooey Xach terrorjack tessier hiroaki1 ffwacom pranavats zymurgy Guest11347 sm2n perrier-jouet Noisytoot froggey summerisle winny emacsomancer Krystof entel Gnuxie[m] no-defun-allowed loke[m]1 rodentrabies etimmons dmiles[m] susam ms[m]1 infra_red[m] tweet[m] katco kreyren ThaEwat MrtnDk[m] harlchen[m] Theora[m] arcontethegreat[ dieggsy 2021-03-30T22:44:49Z names: joast penguwin Papa jackhill z0d dddddd jealousmonk cyberlard ecraven glamas xantoz _death conjunctive jello_pudding pyc dunk Shinmera nightfly akkad ozzloy_ mtd ineiros MetaYan Grue` andreyorst phadthai TMA gum xi- flip214 drewc jibanes theBlackDragon patrixl mgsk antoszka alanz asdflkj larme Balooga b20n palter thonkpod creat_ XachX nmg dnm gko grobe0ba felideon swflint lonjil2 dbotton Guest85002 shenghi yottabyte housel teej idxu gingerale- russell-- 2021-03-30T22:44:49Z names: cpt_nemo krjt conkker matthewcroughan beaky griffinbyatt billstclair jsatk lieven acolarh HiRE borodust stux|RC-only copec SumoSud0 Kabriel brass Ankhers fiddlerwoaroof Khisanth alandipert loke SlashLife elflng mister_m nckx vaporatorius kbtr zagura Tordek_ malm ramus ft matijja keja_ guaqua tmf docl gabc walex jonathan- _whitelogger CEnnis91 drmeister FennecCode p_l parisienne selwyn dale |3b| jlpeters knobo sebboh @fe[nl]ix Grauwolf pent bytesighs devrtz 2021-03-30T22:44:49Z names: grfn splittist mpontillo phoe beach interruptinuse jasom chrpape madand spxy Odin- diamondbond lukego jerme_ johs avicenna voidlily mjl cg505 joga ski xlei moon-child nitrix mtd_ add^_ mood_ Fade nopf_ pok jfb4 Patternmaster shinohai ChoHag ferada Necktwi APic sbryant gabiruh HDurer cods Ziemas cpape` buoy49 nydel plisp2 spacebat2 em madnificent zupss sgithens jurov fouric xristos [df] Juonu ck_ rotty lavaflow remexre eagleflo minion gensym wigust rme 2021-03-30T22:44:49Z names: jmercouris travv0 vhost- davros cross rvirding jprajzne theruran_ gendl ilmu sukaeto alfred188 stylewarning mr_yogurt chewbranca physpi shrysr_ specbot AdmiralBumbleBee markasoftware Inoperable mgxm azrazalea herlocksholmes amk jgkamat Nikotiini drdo dim bkst 2021-03-30T22:45:04Z frgo_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-30T22:45:28Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-30T22:46:13Z raeda joined #lisp 2021-03-30T22:47:09Z Ekho- is now known as Ekho 2021-03-30T22:47:11Z pacon joined #lisp 2021-03-30T22:48:02Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-30T22:49:03Z albusp quit (Quit: albusp) 2021-03-30T22:58:12Z perrier-jouet quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-03-30T22:58:54Z wxie quit (Quit: wxie) 2021-03-30T23:00:58Z perrier-jouet joined #lisp 2021-03-30T23:02:57Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-30T23:05:46Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-30T23:05:57Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-30T23:07:06Z karlosz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-30T23:09:58Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-30T23:14:43Z Guest_07847 joined #lisp 2021-03-30T23:16:15Z Guest_07847 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-30T23:16:36Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-30T23:25:46Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-30T23:26:10Z andreyorst joined #lisp 2021-03-30T23:26:55Z cognemo quit (Quit: cognemo) 2021-03-30T23:27:13Z cognemo joined #lisp 2021-03-30T23:27:55Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-30T23:34:20Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-30T23:34:20Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2021-03-30T23:34:20Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-30T23:38:50Z dvdmuckle quit (Quit: Bouncer Surgery) 2021-03-30T23:40:09Z deltab_ is now known as deltab 2021-03-30T23:42:33Z kevingal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-30T23:45:38Z dvdmuckle joined #lisp 2021-03-31T00:04:29Z igemnace joined #lisp 2021-03-31T00:06:36Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2021-03-31T00:12:43Z gitgood quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-31T00:15:39Z hdasch_ is now known as hdasch 2021-03-31T00:18:39Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-31T00:19:20Z curtosis[away] joined #lisp 2021-03-31T00:19:55Z ramenbytes joined #lisp 2021-03-31T00:20:02Z MrtnDk[m]: I got my common lisp system up and running with emacs, slime et all on my raspberry pi, thanks to some of your guys. Now I am trying to get it running on my laptop. I installed sbcl, slime (from both ubuntu and melpa), but I can't seem to get the repl running. I'm sure I'm forgetting something basic. 2021-03-31T00:22:06Z Xach: MrtnDk[m]: what happens when you try? 2021-03-31T00:22:28Z MrtnDk[m]: Let me try again ... something about "lisp" not existing or something. 2021-03-31T00:23:03Z ramenbytes: If you have SBCL, you'd need to run 'sbcl' 2021-03-31T00:24:10Z Xach: MrtnDk[m]: i have a line like this in my ~/.emacs: (setq inferior-lisp-program "sbcl") 2021-03-31T00:24:14Z MrtnDk[m]: Searching for program: Ingen sådan fil eller filkatalog, lisp (No such file or directory, lisp) 2021-03-31T00:25:18Z MrtnDk[m]: Xach: That did the trick! Thank thee. 2021-03-31T00:30:57Z madage joined #lisp 2021-03-31T00:31:25Z ramenbytes left #lisp 2021-03-31T00:32:07Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-03-31T00:33:54Z johnjay: MrtnDk[m]: how did you get it working in emacs? 2021-03-31T00:34:12Z johnjay: iirc don't you have to issue two commands, one to start hte repl and one to start slime-mode? 2021-03-31T00:34:20Z curtosis[away] quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-31T00:35:05Z MrtnDk[m]: johnjay: I evaluated the spell I got from Xach, and then did "M-x slime" in the lisp buffer, i guess. 2021-03-31T00:36:28Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2021-03-31T00:36:32Z DikkeRobert joined #lisp 2021-03-31T00:36:55Z DikkeRobert quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-31T00:38:55Z johnjay: hrm, i installed slime and tried that, it does bring up a repl for sure. 2021-03-31T00:39:11Z johnjay: but i don't see how to get C-x C-e to evaluate the expression in slime unless maybe 2021-03-31T00:39:21Z Xach: Vi snakker Engelsk pa #lisp 2021-03-31T00:39:32Z johnjay: right i have to do M-x slime-mode for that 2021-03-31T00:39:52Z MrtnDk[m]: Xach: Yeah, but my system doesn't ... which is why I translated the error in parens. 😀 2021-03-31T00:40:25Z johnjay: .... directory is 'filkatalog'? 2021-03-31T00:40:38Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-31T00:40:44Z MrtnDk[m]: johnjay: Strange. Slime is enough for me, but I have to C-x C-o back to the lispy buffer. 2021-03-31T00:41:02Z johnjay: well if you hit C-x C-e on say (+ 2 2) it shows 4 but that's emacs eval 2021-03-31T00:41:09Z johnjay: if it's evalling it in slime it says something like ==> 4 2021-03-31T00:41:26Z MrtnDk[m]: johnjay: Yeah, "filkatalog" is "file catalog" in danish, which now a days is known as "directory" in English. 2021-03-31T00:41:44Z johnjay: i'm going to ask someone to see their "file catalog" at some point now I know 2021-03-31T00:41:51Z johnjay: you know... the filkatalog! 2021-03-31T00:42:14Z MrtnDk[m]: johnjay: Oh ... my program is very small .. maybe it is compatible with Emacs-lisp and didn't realise .. .let me test. 2021-03-31T00:42:19Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-31T00:43:45Z MrtnDk[m]: Mine shows "=> 4 (3 bits, #x4, #b100) 2021-03-31T00:44:27Z johnjay: hrm, interesting 2021-03-31T00:44:47Z johnjay: if you open a file test.lisp and just put (+ 2 2) in it and do M-x slime what happens if you do C-x C-e? the same? 2021-03-31T00:45:12Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-31T00:45:26Z MrtnDk[m]: I wonder if I did something else. I put the (setq ...) thingy in my init file, so I will try and restart emacs, and do that. ... I will save test.lisp first though. 2021-03-31T00:46:03Z johnjay: i'm not as concerned because it seems the lisp process in the repl is the same one it's using for C-x C-e and such 2021-03-31T00:46:16Z johnjay: still was curious. maybe the slime manual tells more 2021-03-31T00:46:58Z MrtnDk[m]: Yes .. it works .. but maybe because I have swank (or what it is called) running already? 2021-03-31T00:47:13Z MrtnDk[m]: I guess I should restart the laptop to make sure. 2021-03-31T00:50:05Z MrtnDk[m]: It still works. I do have some slime in my initfile, although I don't remember putting it there. 2021-03-31T00:51:48Z MrtnDk[m]: Hmmm .. it just seems to be amount a list of packagenames sent to "package-selected-packages". 2021-03-31T00:52:04Z MrtnDk[m]: johnjay: Did thou install slime from melpa? 2021-03-31T00:57:41Z _jrjsmrtn joined #lisp 2021-03-31T00:57:53Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-31T00:58:38Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-31T01:07:21Z johnjay: yeah 2021-03-31T01:07:47Z johnjay: i was afk and didn't see your message. i installed it in a debian vm 2021-03-31T01:08:57Z johnjay: should install it to ~/.emacs.d/elpa/slime-20210214.2243 2021-03-31T01:09:11Z johnjay: i'm guessing that's the time stamp or something 2021-03-31T01:09:38Z MrtnDk[m]: johnjay: I installed both as Ubuntu package and using "M-x package-list-package", locate slime and install it. That requires you to have configured Melpa in your init file though. 2021-03-31T01:09:40Z johnjay: which is odd because it's 20 localtime for me 2021-03-31T01:09:47Z johnjay: right 2021-03-31T01:09:55Z johnjay: i'm surprised ubuntu packages slime 2021-03-31T01:10:05Z johnjay hits the cymbals for that bad joke 2021-03-31T01:10:08Z MrtnDk[m]: Probably just the debian package. 2021-03-31T01:16:33Z curtosis joined #lisp 2021-03-31T01:16:39Z curtosis is now known as curtosis[away] 2021-03-31T01:27:29Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-31T01:29:02Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-31T01:31:07Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-03-31T01:31:40Z curtosis[away] quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-31T01:31:46Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-03-31T01:39:02Z gj joined #lisp 2021-03-31T01:41:12Z semz joined #lisp 2021-03-31T01:41:12Z semz quit (Changing host) 2021-03-31T01:41:12Z semz joined #lisp 2021-03-31T01:44:14Z gj quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-31T01:52:31Z klltkr quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-31T01:54:45Z klltkr joined #lisp 2021-03-31T01:54:55Z klltkr quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-31T01:59:15Z White__Flame is now known as White_Flame 2021-03-31T02:02:52Z luckless joined #lisp 2021-03-31T02:06:21Z luckless_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-31T02:08:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: jcowan: yeah, at this point I've learned half a dozen different ways of writing programs, and I've generally noticed that each style has people who say it's "only good in theory", people who wonder why anyone would use anything else and people running large systems on the style. 2021-03-31T02:09:27Z Helmholtz quit (Quit: Helmholtz) 2021-03-31T02:10:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: SQL, in particular, isn't my favorite language, but once I understood the relational model somewhat, it can be really productive to learn how to model and solve certain sorts of problems in that paradigm 2021-03-31T02:12:29Z raeda quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-31T02:13:44Z Cthulhux quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-31T02:16:29Z Cthulhux joined #lisp 2021-03-31T02:20:36Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-31T02:27:57Z luckless quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-31T02:31:14Z luckless joined #lisp 2021-03-31T02:38:41Z kslt1 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-31T02:40:07Z kslt1 joined #lisp 2021-03-31T02:40:23Z countvajhula joined #lisp 2021-03-31T02:52:09Z frost-lab quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-31T02:54:59Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2021-03-31T03:02:25Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2021-03-31T03:02:37Z Alfr is now known as Guest23728 2021-03-31T03:02:42Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-03-31T03:04:45Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-03-31T03:04:49Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-03-31T03:04:52Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-03-31T03:04:59Z Guest23728 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-03-31T03:05:18Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-31T03:08:58Z snits quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-31T03:13:39Z snits joined #lisp 2021-03-31T03:16:37Z sxmx joined #lisp 2021-03-31T03:17:42Z monkey__ joined #lisp 2021-03-31T03:19:42Z beach: For the record, I am totally convinced both about the beauty and the usefulness of the relational model. I don't think I have said anything else. 2021-03-31T03:23:07Z matryoshka` joined #lisp 2021-03-31T03:24:06Z matryoshka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-31T03:25:55Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-31T03:33:11Z Bike quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-31T03:39:35Z matryoshka` quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-31T03:42:08Z marusich joined #lisp 2021-03-31T03:52:41Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-31T03:56:21Z Helmholtz joined #lisp 2021-03-31T03:59:51Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-31T04:03:09Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-31T04:06:09Z v3ga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-31T04:06:19Z nydel quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1-dev) 2021-03-31T04:06:31Z nydel joined #lisp 2021-03-31T04:06:50Z nydel quit (Changing host) 2021-03-31T04:06:50Z nydel joined #lisp 2021-03-31T04:10:45Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-03-31T04:10:51Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-03-31T04:11:17Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-03-31T04:12:19Z Helmholtz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-31T04:12:46Z monkey__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-31T04:14:21Z ikrabbe joined #lisp 2021-03-31T04:24:36Z curtosis[away] joined #lisp 2021-03-31T04:33:58Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-31T04:39:19Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-31T04:39:40Z curtosis[away] quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-31T04:42:46Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-31T04:45:09Z v3ga joined #lisp 2021-03-31T04:49:56Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-31T04:51:24Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-03-31T04:55:54Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-03-31T05:04:33Z monkey__ joined #lisp 2021-03-31T05:05:53Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-31T05:10:15Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-31T05:16:12Z aartaka_d quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-31T05:16:17Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-31T05:20:33Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-31T05:23:27Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-31T05:26:38Z sauvin joined #lisp 2021-03-31T05:32:25Z monkey__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-31T05:52:33Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2021-03-31T05:57:57Z countvajhula quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-31T05:58:14Z countvajhula joined #lisp 2021-03-31T05:59:24Z sp41 quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-03-31T06:00:58Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-31T06:02:02Z countvajhula quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-31T06:02:18Z countvajhula joined #lisp 2021-03-31T06:06:07Z countvajhula quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-31T06:06:23Z countvajhula joined #lisp 2021-03-31T06:06:41Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-31T06:09:44Z beach: I just watched a talk on YouTube entitled "Soldiers and Scouts: Why our minds weren't built for truth" by Julia Galef. I think her research might provide insight into the reason for the dismal state of the software industry, and software development in general. 2021-03-31T06:09:46Z beach: In particular, she reiterates a result that I have seen before, namely that a high degree of education in a domain makes people MORE LIKELY to misinterpret information so as to support their existing point of view. 2021-03-31T06:09:51Z marusich quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-31T06:10:43Z countvajhula quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-31T06:10:58Z countvajhula joined #lisp 2021-03-31T06:11:02Z marusich joined #lisp 2021-03-31T06:12:06Z beach: I am sure this research has some interesting implications with respect to the use of Common Lisp, both in industry and in academia, but I am not yet sure what those implications are. 2021-03-31T06:12:43Z mrSpec` is now known as mrspec 2021-03-31T06:13:05Z mrspec quit (Changing host) 2021-03-31T06:13:05Z mrspec joined #lisp 2021-03-31T06:15:49Z countvajhula quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-31T06:16:28Z countvajhula joined #lisp 2021-03-31T06:23:52Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-31T06:24:51Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-31T06:28:31Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-31T06:39:04Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2021-03-31T06:42:52Z flip214: beach: because then people have "more to lose" (more data, more education) if their viewpoint was wrong 2021-03-31T06:42:57Z phantomics quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-31T06:44:13Z phantomics joined #lisp 2021-03-31T06:46:06Z seok joined #lisp 2021-03-31T06:47:22Z beach: flip214: That might be related, sure. I am not sure the full explanation is as simple as that, though. 2021-03-31T06:49:35Z beach: I am more interested in the consequences. It means that people with more knowledge about programming-language semantics, automatic memory management, compiler design, language design, software engineering, etc., are less likely to use that knowledge accurately to make an informed choice of what programming language to use. 2021-03-31T06:50:16Z beach: ... at least if they have already formed an opinion in the domain, like people with many years experience in some particular language or programming style. 2021-03-31T06:50:17Z Shinmera: beach: There's also been studies showing that with political issues highly educated people are /less/ likely to change their minds when presented with contradictory evidence. 2021-03-31T06:50:29Z beach: Exactly! 2021-03-31T06:51:00Z phantomics quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-31T06:51:15Z Shinmera: It's definitely made me try to make an active effort to be more open minded. :) 2021-03-31T06:51:22Z White_Flame: also, computing is just a job now, not an enthusiast pursuit of exploration and doing better things with these universe-creating boxes 2021-03-31T06:51:45Z White_Flame: no longer to empower the user, but to exploit them for data & subscriptions 2021-03-31T06:52:24Z White_Flame: those with the older viewpoint of exploration and advancement are a stark minority 2021-03-31T06:52:38Z flip214: "people do it for money and not for love" 2021-03-31T06:53:02Z beach: Also known as "professionals". 2021-03-31T06:53:09Z White_Flame: yep, but it has more active effects on the average person, who now has computing devices in their primary activities 2021-03-31T06:53:20Z White_Flame: one of active exploitation 2021-03-31T06:54:10Z phantomics joined #lisp 2021-03-31T06:54:11Z White_Flame: this is a huge reinforcer, with how much money can be made 2021-03-31T06:54:50Z White_Flame: in terms of people not having reasonable evaluations of the state of the art & overall direction 2021-03-31T06:55:08Z White_Flame: if it makes money, it must be good, right? 2021-03-31T06:55:23Z beach: I am thinking this: If training programs like university teaching programs teach languages such as C++ or Java, and the trainees get used to those languages, then giving them even more training is going to make them less likely to want to switch. 2021-03-31T06:56:35Z White_Flame: there's 2 mentalities when it comes to any tool 2021-03-31T06:56:48Z White_Flame: 1) I can do this with this tool, neat! 2021-03-31T06:57:08Z White_Flame: 2) I want to do X, what tool do I need to accomplish it better than my existing ones? 2021-03-31T06:57:50Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-31T06:58:03Z White_Flame: your idea certainly plays into the 1st mentality 2021-03-31T06:58:09Z White_Flame: or, into people with the 1st mentality 2021-03-31T06:59:03Z flip214: White_Flame: well, you can solve _anything_ with a turing-complete language... doesn't mean it's a good idea 2021-03-31T06:59:08Z White_Flame: exactly 2021-03-31T06:59:29Z flip214: you need to know a few languages to know where each one has its sweet spot 2021-03-31T06:59:47Z White_Flame: I think the main question here is when is it best to try to introduce new languages? 2021-03-31T07:00:17Z White_Flame: I think people who grew up on assembly, BASIC, COBOL, etc, were left hoping for even greater things 2021-03-31T07:00:48Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-31T07:00:54Z White_Flame: while with modern languages, a beginner could go a long way before finding lack in the language itself, for the purposes they're using 2021-03-31T07:01:09Z White_Flame: and might not even have a notion that the language could be lacking 2021-03-31T07:01:26Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-03-31T07:01:30Z White_Flame: at least, as a random guess to throw into the concept 2021-03-31T07:01:32Z seok: My first language was python, and I moved just because loops were slow :P 2021-03-31T07:06:51Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-31T07:07:51Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-31T07:11:01Z beach: White_Flame: I think that is correct. 2021-03-31T07:14:24Z flip214: White_Flame: that's a very good argument for starting IT education with assembler or BASIC, so that people constantly look around 2021-03-31T07:14:24Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-31T07:14:48Z flip214: let's call it "the dark forest theory of CS" ;) 2021-03-31T07:14:53Z splittist: I suspect the problems people are interested in solving change over time. Back in the day it was symbolic differentiation, Eliza and block worlds. Now it's First Person Shooters and SaaS. 2021-03-31T07:15:45Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-31T07:16:36Z splittist: Oh - and Big Data, of course. 2021-03-31T07:18:38Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2021-03-31T07:18:50Z countvajhula quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-31T07:21:47Z marusich quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-31T07:24:20Z splittist: Actually, thinking back on my own experience, the first thing I wanted to do with a programming language was making rude words scroll endlessly up the screen. Then text adventures, tabletop RPG character generators, and Space Invaders. For splittist Jr it was an iPad cow clicker with in-game currency... 2021-03-31T07:25:34Z splittist: s/making/make/ 2021-03-31T07:25:38Z splittist shuts up 2021-03-31T07:26:49Z terpri_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-31T07:28:51Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-31T07:30:17Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-31T07:30:33Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-31T07:30:44Z terpri joined #lisp 2021-03-31T07:30:51Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-31T07:30:51Z surabax joined #lisp 2021-03-31T07:31:02Z tessier quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-31T07:31:51Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2021-03-31T07:32:43Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-31T07:34:11Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-31T07:34:28Z jdz_ quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2021-03-31T07:35:19Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-31T07:35:19Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2021-03-31T07:35:20Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-31T07:35:53Z jdz joined #lisp 2021-03-31T07:39:35Z nostoi joined #lisp 2021-03-31T07:39:35Z tessier joined #lisp 2021-03-31T07:39:35Z tessier quit (Changing host) 2021-03-31T07:39:35Z tessier joined #lisp 2021-03-31T07:48:15Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-03-31T07:49:48Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-31T07:53:02Z gitgood joined #lisp 2021-03-31T07:53:08Z gitgood quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-31T07:54:24Z countvajhula joined #lisp 2021-03-31T07:58:48Z scymtym_ is now known as scymtym 2021-03-31T07:59:13Z countvajhula quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-31T08:01:30Z White_Flame: flip214: maybe not even starting with asm, but introducing it after the fact. People would have a mind to rederive the higher level stuff and might have an inkling to have broader ideas 2021-03-31T08:01:35Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-03-31T08:01:54Z White_Flame: or that other possibilities are out there beyond their single preference 2021-03-31T08:02:56Z moon-child: ‘It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration.’ 2021-03-31T08:03:46Z beach: Sounds like Dijkstra. 2021-03-31T08:06:09Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-31T08:06:37Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-03-31T08:07:08Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-03-31T08:08:46Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-31T08:09:09Z hendursa2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-31T08:09:33Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-03-31T08:10:06Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-31T08:12:05Z White_Flame: one thing that comes up in conversation a lot here, regarding people who basically code via stack exchange and trying libraries, is who writes the libraries? how do they do so? 2021-03-31T08:12:16Z White_Flame: only when you want more than what's offered are you required to think of how to create something new 2021-03-31T08:13:03Z White_Flame: I haven't gone through the "From NAND to Tetris" course, but I would hope it gets into some of these ideas 2021-03-31T08:13:03Z cosimone quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-31T08:13:21Z andreyorst quit (Read error: No route to host) 2021-03-31T08:13:27Z White_Flame: actually constructing stuff instead of just configuring existing stuff 2021-03-31T08:16:44Z pve joined #lisp 2021-03-31T08:17:22Z andreyorst joined #lisp 2021-03-31T08:21:02Z lottaquestions_ joined #lisp 2021-03-31T08:21:19Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-31T08:21:42Z srandon111 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-31T08:21:45Z lottaquestions quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-03-31T08:21:46Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-31T08:22:28Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2021-03-31T08:27:03Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-03-31T08:27:03Z countvajhula joined #lisp 2021-03-31T08:27:52Z Josh_2: Good morning 2021-03-31T08:32:03Z countvajhula quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-31T08:32:11Z beach: Hello Josh_2. 2021-03-31T08:32:55Z Josh_2: Hey beach, how is your work coming along? 2021-03-31T08:33:42Z beach: Quite well thank you. I think I almost finished register allocation. Some methods might still be missing but that should be easy to fix. You? 2021-03-31T08:42:17Z Josh_2: Yes its going quite well thanks, the last couple of days I have been getting a lesson in how to write instructions for normal non tech folks to follow 2021-03-31T08:42:47Z Josh_2: regarding interacting with part of my Lisp system 2021-03-31T08:44:01Z beach: That sounds challenging. 2021-03-31T08:46:08Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-03-31T08:46:24Z nostoi quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2021-03-31T08:46:49Z Josh_2: I found that writing instructions that are concise and descriptive is quite hard 2021-03-31T08:48:28Z beach: It is. 2021-03-31T08:52:22Z sauvin: Technical writing of any sort can be a skull-pounding headache. 2021-03-31T08:52:22Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-31T08:52:44Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-31T08:54:51Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-31T08:55:16Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-31T08:57:13Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-31T08:57:39Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-31T08:59:40Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-31T08:59:49Z rjcks joined #lisp 2021-03-31T09:02:17Z vsync quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-31T09:02:18Z countvajhula joined #lisp 2021-03-31T09:02:48Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-31T09:04:53Z OlCe joined #lisp 2021-03-31T09:06:01Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-31T09:06:27Z srandon111 joined #lisp 2021-03-31T09:06:43Z vsync joined #lisp 2021-03-31T09:07:19Z countvajhula quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-31T09:11:39Z splittist: I assume technical writing and history of computing are compulsory courses for a CS degree... 2021-03-31T09:14:14Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-31T09:14:38Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-31T09:20:57Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-31T09:21:04Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-31T09:22:13Z cchristiansen quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-31T09:33:04Z hineios quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-31T09:39:03Z gpiero_ quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-03-31T09:39:22Z gpiero joined #lisp 2021-03-31T09:40:37Z countvajhula joined #lisp 2021-03-31T09:41:38Z beach: Yeah, right! 2021-03-31T09:43:11Z grumble quit (Quit: K-Lined) 2021-03-31T09:43:59Z contrapunctus: Josh_2: if you like, I could try and help you with that. Documentation is something I'm interested in working on. 2021-03-31T09:45:08Z countvajhula quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-31T09:45:23Z countvajhula joined #lisp 2021-03-31T09:45:29Z grumble joined #lisp 2021-03-31T09:50:06Z OlCe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-31T09:50:15Z countvajhula quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-31T10:00:06Z vegansbane6963 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-03-31T10:04:40Z spiaggia joined #lisp 2021-03-31T10:04:48Z spiaggia quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-31T10:07:31Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-31T10:08:56Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-31T10:17:02Z countvajhula joined #lisp 2021-03-31T10:19:18Z igemnace quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-03-31T10:19:56Z VincentVega joined #lisp 2021-03-31T10:21:39Z countvajhula quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-31T10:28:18Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-31T10:29:44Z Josh_2: contrapunctus: How would you do that? 2021-03-31T10:30:03Z beach quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2021-03-31T10:31:54Z beach joined #lisp 2021-03-31T10:35:06Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-03-31T10:42:36Z contrapunctus: Josh_2: "running the program, observing potential improvements to UX to avoid hitting the documentation, and improving the documentation where necessary" comes to mind. Would that help? 2021-03-31T10:44:03Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-31T10:44:38Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-31T10:46:01Z amk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-31T10:46:09Z amk joined #lisp 2021-03-31T10:46:51Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-31T10:48:14Z heisig joined #lisp 2021-03-31T10:50:45Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-31T10:54:11Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-31T10:56:08Z countvajhula joined #lisp 2021-03-31T10:56:42Z Josh_2: Ah I see. I really appreciate the offer but due to the nature of the program at the current time, and the way the user interacts with it I don't think that is possible. 2021-03-31T11:01:10Z countvajhula quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-31T11:02:38Z long4mud quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-31T11:04:58Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-03-31T11:05:26Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-31T11:05:52Z villanella quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-31T11:05:53Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-03-31T11:06:08Z rogersm quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-31T11:08:09Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-03-31T11:15:58Z Helmholtz joined #lisp 2021-03-31T11:16:58Z countvajhula joined #lisp 2021-03-31T11:17:00Z _jrjsmrtn quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-31T11:19:58Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp 2021-03-31T11:21:54Z countvajhula quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-31T11:24:08Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-31T11:33:17Z bgardner quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-31T11:36:29Z flip214: White_Flame: My son is currently learning c# in school; but starting at that point he has no idea of all the (more or less hidden) lower complexities. 2021-03-31T11:37:10Z flip214: I think that starting from a low level and going up people can really appreciate all the layers inbetween - and end up with a rough idea where to look when something goes wrong. 2021-03-31T11:39:06Z Odin-: You may have a point about appreciation, but I think the real problem is when the lower levels are just completely ignored. 2021-03-31T11:41:37Z Odin-: Resulting in severe cases of "any sufficiently advanced technology" towards programming languages and (particularly) VMs. 2021-03-31T11:42:48Z no-defun-allowed: I wish I could ignore lower levels. That'd be nice. 2021-03-31T11:44:31Z matryoshka joined #lisp 2021-03-31T11:44:36Z Odin-: Well, I for one don't often bother with thinking about the operation of computers in terms of the quantum physics of semiconductors. 2021-03-31T11:45:01Z Odin-: So there's one lower level I ignore... 2021-03-31T11:49:59Z Helmholtz quit (Quit: Helmholtz) 2021-03-31T11:49:59Z bgardner joined #lisp 2021-03-31T11:50:16Z Josh_2: no-defun-allowed: it would 2021-03-31T11:50:59Z Iolo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-31T11:51:12Z Josh_2: In my personal experience going from Lisp to other languages has been easy enough. 2021-03-31T11:51:52Z no-defun-allowed: Don't you miss making ABA problems with metaobjects in other languages? 2021-03-31T11:52:49Z no-defun-allowed: Or whatever the counter thing is, I forgot. And it's nice that looking up "ABA problem" comes up with child torture methods. 2021-03-31T11:53:32Z bgardner quit (Changing host) 2021-03-31T11:53:32Z bgardner joined #lisp 2021-03-31T11:56:17Z OlCe joined #lisp 2021-03-31T11:56:31Z countvajhula joined #lisp 2021-03-31T11:57:50Z no-defun-allowed: In my personal experience, going from Lisp back to Java at university made me want to transfer. So I did, and then I wanted to transfer again, but decided it was too hard to transfer once already. 2021-03-31T11:58:07Z Josh_2: yes but understanding Java was easy 2021-03-31T11:58:50Z no-defun-allowed: Understanding an abacus is easy, but I wouldn't want to use one ever. 2021-03-31T12:01:01Z OlCe quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-31T12:01:14Z countvajhula quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-31T12:06:30Z gaqwas quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-31T12:06:49Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-31T12:10:45Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-31T12:11:11Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-31T12:13:32Z contrapunctus: Josh_2: I see, no problem 🙂 2021-03-31T12:16:44Z contrapunctus: no-defun-allowed: I've been advised by at least three Lispers to write something in a non-Lisp for sake of employment...but the C family icks me out and doesn't really seem to offer anything very unique. Which leaves me with...ML family, Smalltalk, Erlang, Prolog, or Forth, so far ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 2021-03-31T12:17:17Z Josh_2: Well you don't have to be employed as a programmer 2021-03-31T12:19:14Z contrapunctus: Yeah, I'm thinking I have more fun as an amateur programmer anyway. Can pick whatever language or problem which tickles my fancy. Have better qualifications and experience in my other field, too. 2021-03-31T12:21:49Z OlCe joined #lisp 2021-03-31T12:22:52Z Tordek_ is now known as Tordek 2021-03-31T12:30:43Z countvajhula joined #lisp 2021-03-31T12:33:55Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-31T12:34:43Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-03-31T12:36:14Z countvajhula quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-31T12:39:33Z countvajhula joined #lisp 2021-03-31T12:43:55Z countvajhula quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-03-31T12:49:12Z Guest9 joined #lisp 2021-03-31T12:51:22Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-03-31T12:52:52Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-31T12:53:19Z Guest9 quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-31T12:53:43Z nikolayclfx joined #lisp 2021-03-31T12:56:46Z OlCe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-31T13:04:02Z prxq joined #lisp 2021-03-31T13:11:28Z countvajhula joined #lisp 2021-03-31T13:11:49Z OlCe joined #lisp 2021-03-31T13:13:46Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-03-31T13:15:06Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-31T13:16:06Z countvajhula quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-31T13:19:08Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2021-03-31T13:22:18Z mseddon1 joined #lisp 2021-03-31T13:23:46Z mseddon quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-31T13:23:47Z mseddon1 is now known as mseddon 2021-03-31T13:35:11Z warweasle joined #lisp 2021-03-31T13:35:13Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-31T13:38:43Z seok quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-31T13:45:38Z countvajhula joined #lisp 2021-03-31T13:49:57Z countvajhula quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-31T14:00:50Z rgherdt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-31T14:02:10Z curtosis joined #lisp 2021-03-31T14:16:27Z countvajhula joined #lisp 2021-03-31T14:16:53Z curtosis quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-31T14:21:16Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-31T14:21:39Z countvajhula quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-31T14:22:28Z zxcvz joined #lisp 2021-03-31T14:24:16Z Aurora_iz_kosmos joined #lisp 2021-03-31T14:26:21Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-31T14:26:46Z Aurora_iz_kosmos is now known as Aurora_v_kosmose 2021-03-31T14:30:08Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-31T14:41:35Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-31T14:41:35Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2021-03-31T14:41:35Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-03-31T14:50:11Z ikrabbe quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-31T14:50:18Z countvajhula joined #lisp 2021-03-31T14:53:12Z ikrabbe joined #lisp 2021-03-31T14:54:59Z countvajhula quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-31T14:55:19Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-03-31T15:04:06Z sjl joined #lisp 2021-03-31T15:04:36Z nicktick joined #lisp 2021-03-31T15:06:37Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-31T15:07:46Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-31T15:11:11Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-31T15:13:00Z countvajhula joined #lisp 2021-03-31T15:24:23Z surabax_ joined #lisp 2021-03-31T15:27:17Z surabax quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-31T15:31:51Z aindilis quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-31T15:32:45Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-03-31T15:33:37Z mfiano joined #lisp 2021-03-31T15:45:41Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-03-31T15:46:42Z pjb joined #lisp 2021-03-31T15:46:53Z pjb: Hi phoe! 2021-03-31T15:47:11Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-03-31T15:47:12Z Josh_2: Hello stranger pjb :P 2021-03-31T15:47:16Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-03-31T15:55:34Z countvaj` joined #lisp 2021-03-31T15:57:26Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-31T15:58:03Z countvajhula quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-03-31T16:00:10Z countvaj` quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-31T16:02:33Z jmercouris: pjb is back? 2021-03-31T16:03:23Z phoe: hey hi 2021-03-31T16:03:56Z sjl quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3-dev) 2021-03-31T16:05:55Z supercoven joined #lisp 2021-03-31T16:06:06Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-31T16:07:15Z pjb: :-) 2021-03-31T16:07:39Z jmercouris: Any feature suggestions for Nyxt? 2021-03-31T16:07:43Z aindilis joined #lisp 2021-03-31T16:08:32Z mfiano: Better add the Rust port, before someone else beats you to it ;) 2021-03-31T16:08:32Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-31T16:09:16Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-31T16:11:03Z jmercouris: Son of a ... you’re right! :-D 2021-03-31T16:11:23Z jmercouris: If only we had written in rust, then it would be free of all bugs! 2021-03-31T16:13:09Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2021-03-31T16:13:09Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-31T16:13:21Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-31T16:17:41Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-31T16:18:35Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-31T16:19:37Z Iolo joined #lisp 2021-03-31T16:19:38Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-31T16:19:53Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-31T16:19:54Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-31T16:20:10Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-31T16:21:55Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-31T16:23:58Z Iolo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-31T16:24:21Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-31T16:25:15Z countvaj` joined #lisp 2021-03-31T16:32:00Z curtosis[away] joined #lisp 2021-03-31T16:32:46Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-31T16:45:39Z casual_friday quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-31T16:46:17Z casual_friday joined #lisp 2021-03-31T16:46:54Z curtosis[away] quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-31T16:47:17Z surabax_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-31T16:50:55Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-31T16:53:00Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-31T16:55:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: jmercouris: A mac version that doesn't require Gtk or Qt :) 2021-03-31T16:55:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've never been able to get it to run on any mac I've owned :( 2021-03-31T17:06:46Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-31T17:08:06Z yang_ is now known as yang 2021-03-31T17:08:32Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-31T17:20:10Z madage quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-31T17:20:39Z srandon111 quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-31T17:21:35Z MichaelRaskin joined #lisp 2021-03-31T17:24:45Z Iolo joined #lisp 2021-03-31T17:26:19Z eden joined #lisp 2021-03-31T17:34:53Z flip214: no-defun-allowed: fizzbuzz? 2021-03-31T17:45:46Z ikrabbe quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-31T17:48:29Z Noisytoot is now known as []{}\|^`- 2021-03-31T17:51:08Z []{}\|^`- is now known as Noisytoot 2021-03-31T17:52:30Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-03-31T17:53:54Z Noisytoot is now known as |||||| 2021-03-31T17:54:22Z gitgood joined #lisp 2021-03-31T17:54:23Z |||||| is now known as Guest7851 2021-03-31T17:54:29Z rogersm quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-31T17:56:20Z gitgood quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-31T17:57:19Z ikrabbe joined #lisp 2021-03-31T17:58:15Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-31T17:58:33Z Guest7851 is now known as Noisytoot 2021-03-31T17:59:20Z gitgood joined #lisp 2021-03-31T18:00:06Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-31T18:00:06Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-31T18:00:12Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-03-31T18:00:13Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-31T18:00:45Z warweasle is now known as warweasle_meetin 2021-03-31T18:05:06Z zxcvz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-31T18:07:28Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-31T18:07:28Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-31T18:08:37Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-31T18:11:46Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-31T18:12:39Z ineiros quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-31T18:13:58Z stylewarning: Xach: I'm having difficulty repro'ing this QL report: http://report.quicklisp.org/2021-03-31/failure-report/magicl.html#magicl_ext-blas 2021-03-31T18:14:02Z ineiros joined #lisp 2021-03-31T18:14:47Z phoe: stylewarning: how are you trying to reproduce it? it seems that this is not a compilation error but a FASL-loading error 2021-03-31T18:15:12Z stylewarning: phoe: I've just tried loading & re-loading the system from scratch locally 2021-03-31T18:15:19Z phoe: so I guess that the way to reproduce it would be to compile everything, then try loading magicl/ext-blas in a clean image 2021-03-31T18:15:45Z phoe: hmm, I see 2021-03-31T18:16:42Z stylewarning: ASDF:COMPILE-SYSTEM -> restart -> LOAD-SYSTEM works OK 2021-03-31T18:17:03Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-03-31T18:17:42Z phoe: hmmm, magicl/ext-blas depends on magicl/core which defines the magicl.backends package 2021-03-31T18:17:49Z stylewarning: correct 2021-03-31T18:18:31Z mfiano: Have you tried on that particular SBCL version? 2021-03-31T18:19:03Z stylewarning: mfiano: that's the only variable I haven't tried changing; i' 2021-03-31T18:19:06Z stylewarning: m on 2.1.x 2021-03-31T18:19:07Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2021-03-31T18:19:18Z phoe: hmmm! try wrapping DEFUN BACKEND-NAME-P in EVAL-ALWAYS 2021-03-31T18:20:03Z phoe: my train of thoughts is, this is because it is mentioned in DEFTYPE and this type might be expanded in DEFMACRO WITH-BACKENDS... hmmmm, I'm thinking out loud 2021-03-31T18:20:34Z phoe: also DEFVAR *KNOWN-BACKENDS* in EVAL-ALWAYS 2021-03-31T18:20:43Z sauvin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-31T18:20:44Z stylewarning: phoe: great hunch 2021-03-31T18:21:13Z phoe: that's because DEFTYPE is like DEFMACRO, functions called by/vars accessed in the type expansion must be available in the compilation environment, hence EVAL-ALWAYS 2021-03-31T18:21:49Z phoe: I don't know if this fixes the bug in question but let's try 2021-03-31T18:21:54Z zooey_ joined #lisp 2021-03-31T18:21:57Z zooey quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-31T18:24:06Z stylewarning: phoe: I'm just going to commit that because it makes sense. I admit I haven't been testing on other platforms that are a bit more picky about *-time evaluation 2021-03-31T18:25:32Z phoe: I have no idea what is it about Xach-platform that makes it picky in this particular case 2021-03-31T18:25:33Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-31T18:25:39Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-31T18:25:40Z phoe: but let's try! 2021-03-31T18:27:44Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-31T18:28:19Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-31T18:34:46Z stylewarning: phoe: well based on your hunch I did https://github.com/rigetti/magicl/pull/133 2021-03-31T18:39:09Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-03-31T18:39:25Z phoe: stylewarning: I am not sorry for the double pun I've made 2021-03-31T18:40:49Z stylewarning: phoe: :))) 2021-03-31T18:41:17Z a0 joined #lisp 2021-03-31T18:41:54Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-31T18:42:36Z phoe: I am learning! 2021-03-31T18:42:46Z phoe: you and Xach are very good teachers on the matter 2021-03-31T18:43:57Z eden quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-31T18:43:58Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-31T18:44:48Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-31T18:47:07Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-31T18:47:17Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-31T18:47:18Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-31T18:47:32Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-31T18:49:38Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-31T18:50:12Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-31T18:52:42Z madage joined #lisp 2021-03-31T18:55:11Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-31T18:57:02Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-03-31T19:07:05Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-31T19:08:19Z warweasle_meetin quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 26.1) 2021-03-31T19:11:41Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-31T19:12:20Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-31T19:14:36Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-31T19:14:49Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-31T19:16:46Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-31T19:17:32Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-31T19:18:07Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-03-31T19:19:36Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-31T19:20:14Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-31T19:21:17Z kenran joined #lisp 2021-03-31T19:21:24Z gnUser joined #lisp 2021-03-31T19:21:58Z gnUser: Hi guys, I am new to lisp (want to learn it for Emacs) any tutorial you can recommend? And anything cool to research that has been made using lisp? 2021-03-31T19:22:42Z phoe: which Lisp dialect do you want to learn? 2021-03-31T19:23:00Z phoe: asking because Emacs is written in Emacs Lisp, and #emacs is the best place to ask for that 2021-03-31T19:23:12Z phoe: #lisp is a lair of Common Lisp programmers, and CL is a different Lisp dialect 2021-03-31T19:23:27Z phoe: for elisp, I'd say Mastering Emacs; for CL, 2021-03-31T19:23:31Z phoe: minion: tell gnUser about pcl 2021-03-31T19:23:31Z minion: gnUser: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 2021-03-31T19:26:41Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-31T19:27:02Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-31T19:28:35Z gnUser: I suppose I want to lear elips, I though they would be similar enough :) 2021-03-31T19:28:49Z gnUser: phoe: thanks for that recomendation and thanks to minion too 2021-03-31T19:28:55Z phoe: they are somewhat similar on the surface but the deeper you go, the more different they are 2021-03-31T19:29:11Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-31T19:29:11Z gnUser: phoe: interesting, how are they different if I may ask? 2021-03-31T19:29:13Z phoe: also, minion is our bot, you can thank him yourself 2021-03-31T19:29:38Z gnUser: oh nice, I would not know how to thank him apart from: 2021-03-31T19:29:40Z gnUser: minion: thanks! 2021-03-31T19:29:40Z minion: you're welcome 2021-03-31T19:29:44Z gnUser: cool 2021-03-31T19:29:45Z phoe: :D 2021-03-31T19:30:02Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-03-31T19:30:11Z phoe: tl;dr elisp is a single-implementation unstandarized language mostly used for programming emacs whereas CL is a multi-implementation ANSI-standarized general purpose programming language 2021-03-31T19:30:46Z gnUser: interesting, I will look into both then 2021-03-31T19:30:50Z gnUser: thank you 2021-03-31T19:30:55Z phoe: (I don't think the guile backend for elisp is ready enough to count it as a second implementation...) 2021-03-31T19:31:27Z phoe: of course you can use elisp for general programming, though it's kind of not what it is very commonly used for and what it is most optimized for 2021-03-31T19:31:38Z phoe: that's where CL shines in comparison 2021-03-31T19:32:08Z phoe: although CL does not have a programming editor of emacs quality and availability of software (yet). a lot of people actually use emacs as the editor to program in CL 2021-03-31T19:32:27Z phoe: with toolkits like slime+swank, or sly+slynk, written in both elisp (client) and CL (server) 2021-03-31T19:35:22Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2021-03-31T19:37:02Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-31T19:40:50Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-31T19:44:14Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-03-31T19:44:40Z a0 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-31T19:44:43Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2021-03-31T19:45:45Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-31T19:47:44Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2021-03-31T19:48:19Z countvaj` quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-31T19:48:54Z gnUser: phoe: which editor is typically used for lisp programming? 2021-03-31T19:51:13Z Odin-: It's probably safe to say that emacs is the most common. 2021-03-31T19:54:09Z akoana joined #lisp 2021-03-31T19:57:09Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-31T19:58:32Z Iolo quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5+deb4 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-31T19:58:53Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-31T19:59:38Z countvaj` joined #lisp 2021-03-31T20:00:28Z Iolo joined #lisp 2021-03-31T20:02:43Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-31T20:03:19Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-31T20:03:27Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-31T20:13:38Z kenran_ joined #lisp 2021-03-31T20:18:49Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-31T20:20:47Z jmercouris: anyone know who is responsible for this: https://github.com/Lisp-Stat/lisp-stat ? 2021-03-31T20:22:10Z wsinatra quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-03-31T20:22:40Z jmercouris: the closest I can figure out is "Steve Nunez" 2021-03-31T20:25:05Z kenran quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-03-31T20:28:43Z jmercouris: is it potentially safe to say that Nyxt will be the most common in the future? 2021-03-31T20:29:28Z phoe: gnUser: as I said above, emacs! 2021-03-31T20:29:35Z jmercouris: oh :-( 2021-03-31T20:29:40Z phoe: (right now) 2021-03-31T20:29:44Z gnUser: thank you 2021-03-31T20:29:51Z phoe: with either slime or sly 2021-03-31T20:29:54Z jmercouris: ERROR FUNCTION: RIGHT is undefined 2021-03-31T20:29:58Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-31T20:30:10Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-03-31T20:30:26Z phoe: jmercouris: also, it's Steve Nunez of Symbolics Pte fame 2021-03-31T20:30:34Z jmercouris: who is that? 2021-03-31T20:30:59Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-31T20:31:10Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-03-31T20:31:17Z sm2n: what is up with the weird licensing on that repository 2021-03-31T20:31:20Z phoe: https://github.com/symbolics - never really talked with him though 2021-03-31T20:31:33Z sm2n: it is incompatible with the gpl 2021-03-31T20:32:52Z _death: I do hope it's a joke 2021-03-31T20:33:51Z sm2n: https://lisp-stat.dev/blog/2021/03/21/statistical-analysis-with-lisp-stat/ 2021-03-31T20:34:05Z sm2n: "commercial-friendly license" looks like it's not 2021-03-31T20:35:06Z sm2n: it's a shame because it is something I would be excited about otherwise 2021-03-31T20:36:20Z phoe: it is commercial friendly because you can distribute binary blobs pretty freely 2021-03-31T20:36:30Z phoe: ...but source code blobs, only under MSPL 2021-03-31T20:36:50Z phoe: I wonder why 2021-03-31T20:37:06Z sm2n: it's not really commercial friendly if you can't reuse any gpl code 2021-03-31T20:37:15Z sm2n: this means you can't link with gpl stuff either 2021-03-31T20:37:16Z supercoven quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-31T20:37:23Z phoe: depends on your definition of "commercial friendly" I guess 2021-03-31T20:38:14Z kenran_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-31T20:41:10Z galex-713 quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 210 seconds.) 2021-03-31T20:42:37Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-03-31T20:48:45Z jmercouris: Half the time when I read a bio I’m not sure if the author is delusional about their achievements or really IS something special 2021-03-31T20:48:55Z jmercouris: I’m not sure what to believe anymore 2021-03-31T20:49:16Z jmercouris: This applies more specifically to autobiographies and other documents of that nature 2021-03-31T20:49:35Z countvaj` quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-31T20:52:26Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-31T20:56:02Z prxq quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-03-31T20:56:15Z prxq joined #lisp 2021-03-31T20:56:51Z countvaj` joined #lisp 2021-03-31T20:57:28Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2021-03-31T20:59:37Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-03-31T21:00:48Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-31T21:01:06Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-31T21:07:04Z Noisytoot is now known as ihatecoronaandih 2021-03-31T21:07:24Z ihatecoronaandih is now known as Noisytoot 2021-03-31T21:08:50Z palter: Just wish Steve didn't grab the Symbolics username on GitHub. Would've liked to use it for the actual Symbolics software. (Just the VLM for now until JCMa can be convinced otherwise.) 2021-03-31T21:09:22Z phantomics quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2021-03-31T21:09:41Z phantomics joined #lisp 2021-03-31T21:10:01Z xristos: palter: is that released? 2021-03-31T21:10:37Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-31T21:10:52Z palter: Can't release it because of ownership issues. But, Dave Schmidt can grant access to the VLM on a per-request basis. 2021-03-31T21:11:03Z pve quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-31T21:11:50Z palter: If you were a Symbolics customer, he'd probably say it's ok for me to give you access. 2021-03-31T21:18:27Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-31T21:19:58Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-03-31T21:21:26Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-31T21:26:32Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-03-31T21:28:17Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-03-31T21:31:51Z caoliver: palter on-going? I while back I purchased an XL1201 which wound up with memory issues. I really didn't get much value from the expenditure. I still have the Gen 8.3 CD, but no hardware anymore. Is there any chance I would qualify for VLM? I put about $3K into the box and maybe got to run it 24 times or so before I had problems. 2021-03-31T21:32:26Z caoliver: I still wish I had the keyboard. 2021-03-31T21:35:07Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-31T21:35:30Z karlosz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-31T21:35:41Z Spawns_Carpeting quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-31T21:36:00Z Spawns_Carpeting joined #lisp 2021-03-31T21:42:33Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-03-31T21:44:08Z cchristiansen joined #lisp 2021-03-31T21:45:50Z caoliver: Do you suppose in view of that Dave might grant me access? 2021-03-31T21:46:26Z pjb: palter: well, symbolics-software is still free. 2021-03-31T21:46:54Z caoliver: Not really. 2021-03-31T21:47:38Z caoliver: It's more a piracy that's not vigorously prosecuted I believe. 2021-03-31T21:48:14Z Lycurgus: getting a thing alone doesn't constitute piracy in my book, gotta try to sell it 2021-03-31T21:48:49Z caoliver: IANAL, but you are perhaps making an unauthorized copy. 2021-03-31T21:49:40Z Feldman: I mean it also depends on the country you are in, travel to Switzerland and pirate to your heart's content. 2021-03-31T21:49:47Z Lycurgus: especially software for a computer that doesn't exist anymore 2021-03-31T21:49:54Z caoliver: OG 2.0 exists in a very public place though. I certainly didn't put it here, and I'm quite surprised it hasn't gone away. 2021-03-31T21:50:32Z xristos: caoliver: if it's out, it's out 2021-03-31T21:50:44Z caoliver: I do feel the principle interest is historical though, a museum you can run on your computer. 2021-03-31T21:51:36Z caoliver: So, I think the world is a far better place if OC, Medley, and Squeak are out there to poison childrens' brains. ;-P 2021-03-31T21:51:45Z caoliver: s/OC/OG/ 2021-03-31T21:52:14Z caoliver has Squeak and Medley on his box, though most of his hacking is in LuaJIT and C. 2021-03-31T21:52:27Z caoliver doesn't like Pharo. 2021-03-31T21:52:36Z Lycurgus neither 2021-03-31T21:52:59Z caoliver: referent? 2021-03-31T21:53:21Z Lycurgus: the squeak fork 2021-03-31T21:53:43Z caoliver: Ah. The Inria guys took it in a very un-hackish way. 2021-03-31T21:53:49Z Lycurgus: which ftm peaked a while back 2021-03-31T21:54:19Z caoliver: And I like the projects feature. It make sort of an ideas notebook. 2021-03-31T21:54:31Z caoliver: Pharo got that stuff axed out. 2021-03-31T21:55:02Z casual_friday quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-31T21:55:23Z casual_friday joined #lisp 2021-03-31T22:00:18Z xristos: pharo has lost the plot completely imo, and i used to be a fan 2021-03-31T22:01:14Z xristos: i'd rather do squeak and morphic these days than waste my time with the ever-changing mess that pharo has become 2021-03-31T22:01:41Z caoliver: It feels like folk with an IT mentality got a hold of a smalltalk image. 2021-03-31T22:02:29Z caoliver: Agree. It strikes me as far harder to hack on, and more than a bit over-engineered. 2021-03-31T22:10:42Z palter: caoliver - I think he would give you access. 2021-03-31T22:11:19Z caoliver: I'll ask. My interest as you might guess from the scrollback is in no way commercial. 2021-03-31T22:11:46Z palter: The version in the wild is definitely not legitimate and is based on an emulator that has some serious problems. 2021-03-31T22:12:13Z caoliver: If I were doing that sort of thing, it'd be on one of the Linux native platforms such as SBCL or CCL. 2021-03-31T22:12:41Z caoliver: Yup. 2021-03-31T22:12:59Z palter: Open Genera (OG) is now up to 3.0. Genera is up to 9.0. Portable Genera which is e version for Intel and ARM is at 2.0. 2021-03-31T22:14:55Z caoliver: Who is doing the development? I know of Kalman. I know you're on the VM. 2021-03-31T22:15:01Z Helmholtz joined #lisp 2021-03-31T22:15:04Z gnUser quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-31T22:15:46Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-31T22:16:00Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-31T22:16:09Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-03-31T22:17:02Z caoliver: ARM to support the new Macs I'd guess. 2021-03-31T22:17:54Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-03-31T22:17:56Z White_Flame: so is it completely removed from alpha-influenced emulation now? 2021-03-31T22:18:23Z caoliver: I should imagine aside from some hush-hush things, there really aren't many if any commercial customers. 2021-03-31T22:19:00Z White_Flame: or I guess I should ask, os Open Genera removed from the ivory instruction set now? 2021-03-31T22:19:24Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-31T22:19:52Z yonkunas quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-31T22:20:02Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-03-31T22:21:16Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-31T22:23:25Z caoliver didn't know that Maxima had an Android port. 2021-03-31T22:23:55Z caoliver: Based on ECL.... yuck! 2021-03-31T22:30:56Z indathrone quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-31T22:31:58Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-31T22:36:05Z White_Flame: palter: the reason I'm curious is that I have my own from-scratch ivory emulator in CL, which also compiles ivory bytecoded functions into native CL functions. 2021-03-31T22:37:25Z White_Flame: but, I certainly don't have enough of the system platform guts to get any of the worlds that are out there on the internet to boot past a few million instructions 2021-03-31T22:39:39Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 28.0.50)) 2021-03-31T22:43:08Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-31T22:43:34Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-03-31T22:45:21Z palter: White_Flame - That’s cool. 2021-03-31T22:45:57Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-03-31T22:46:03Z palter: Open Genera, now Portable Genera, still runs through an Ivory emulator. What’s changed is that the emulator is now native on both Intel and ARM64. 2021-03-31T22:46:56Z White_Flame: ah, k 2021-03-31T22:47:09Z palter: And, yes, it runs on Apple silicon (i.e., the new Macs). In fact, supporting those systems is why we had to rebuild Genera from source. The ARM version already ran fine on Linux. (I have it on a Pi4 at home.) 2021-03-31T22:48:03Z White_Flame: the biggest tradeoff I was looking at was C-based can do MMU stuff to not have to emulate the virtual memory aspects of each and every memory access, but CL would give me JITting of the ivory functions 2021-03-31T22:48:28Z palter: But, Apple silicon changed the hardware page size to 16KB and Genera used 8KB on the VLM which meant that as soon as two adjacent Genera pages needed different protection settings, Genera would crash. GC would trigger that all the time. 2021-03-31T22:49:12Z caoliver: Understood. Linux uses 4k pages, so pairing up two adjacent is trivial. 2021-03-31T22:49:35Z palter: I tried to fix it in a patch but it just wasn’t possible. 2021-03-31T22:49:41Z caoliver: I hate Apple for a number of OS related reasons. 2021-03-31T22:50:18Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-31T22:50:30Z White_Flame: from CL, I get around a lot of that by simply allocating the entire 40GB address space in RAM 2021-03-31T22:50:45Z karlosz quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-31T22:50:45Z caoliver: I hacked up a pthreads system for LuaJIT, but Apple decided to go their own way WRT IPC. 2021-03-31T22:50:49Z White_Flame: (or whatever size it ends up as) 2021-03-31T22:50:54Z palter: I started working on the VLM again back in 2014 (or ‘15) to help Dave Schmidt with one of his clients. He needed a working Intel version of the emulator. 2021-03-31T22:51:12Z palter: I did the ARM emulator on my own later because it was fun. 2021-03-31T22:51:25Z caoliver: Palter has a perverse definition of fun. 2021-03-31T22:51:38Z White_Flame: s/perverse/correct/ 2021-03-31T22:51:54Z palter: We’ve also done a good deal of patches to Genera itself to better support ANSI CL. (We have a client running hunchentoot on Genera as his development platform) 2021-03-31T22:52:09Z no-defun-allowed: Does Portable Genera do any code generation, or does it interpret the Ivory code? 2021-03-31T22:52:09Z palter: Thank you, White_Flame. 2021-03-31T22:52:25Z caoliver: I will confess that having a lispm that fits in an Altoids tin is a novelty I can believe in. ;-) 2021-03-31T22:52:25Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-03-31T22:52:55Z palter: As I remember, since I’m not at my computers right now, booting Genera and immediately shutting it down takes about 3 billion instructions. (I have traces.) 2021-03-31T22:53:45Z White_Flame: traces of correct execution are _exactly_ what I need to get unblocked from my development, but those world images would be different 2021-03-31T22:53:56Z palter: Oops. Just checked and it’s only 37 million instructions. 2021-03-31T22:54:21Z White_Flame: I haven't touched my code in probably over a year now 2021-03-31T22:54:23Z caoliver: How was the usability working on the RasPi4? 2021-03-31T22:54:28Z White_Flame: but I am proud of the name: Revivory 2021-03-31T22:55:10Z palter: The Pi4 is a bit sluggish compared to my other systems but is still much faster than original Ivory hardware. 2021-03-31T22:55:22Z caoliver remembers the XL1201 being loud, hot, and slow. 2021-03-31T22:55:35Z palter: I’ve got to do a video call right now. Back shortly. 2021-03-31T22:55:39Z White_Flame: I collected a few timings: https://pastebin.com/KzptxGjR 2021-03-31T22:55:49Z caoliver: Not to mention moving 80# boxes and monitors isn't fun. 2021-03-31T22:56:53Z caoliver contemplates pizza. It's getting that time. 2021-03-31T22:56:57Z notzmv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-31T22:57:13Z v3ga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-31T23:00:48Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-03-31T23:01:01Z notzmv is now known as Guest89795 2021-03-31T23:04:01Z cosimone quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-31T23:07:22Z palter: A Pi4 is equivalent to an XL18300. But an Apple silicon Mac is equivalent to an XL103000. 2021-03-31T23:09:17Z Guest89795 is now known as notzmv 2021-03-31T23:09:30Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-31T23:09:47Z palter: My near top-of-the-line MacBook Pro is only an XL67500. 2021-03-31T23:15:22Z caoliver has no top-o-the-line stuff. My stuff is mainly surplus third gen core-i Optiplexes running a very slimmed down Slackware. 2021-03-31T23:19:05Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-03-31T23:23:06Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-31T23:24:49Z rjcks_ joined #lisp 2021-03-31T23:28:03Z rjcks quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-31T23:33:45Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-31T23:44:32Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-03-31T23:45:37Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-31T23:51:52Z rjcks_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-31T23:54:48Z xristos: palter: how likely is it that the VLM you're working on will be available to the public in the near future?